# Vegetarianism



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

What's your opinion on it?


----------



## BrainError (Apr 29, 2009)

Are you thinking of giving it a shot? 

I've been a vegetarian for about four years now, and it works for me. Just make sure you're financially able to cater to your dietary needs. I stopped eating meat for moral reasons, and wouldn't feel comfortable starting back up, but money has been a little tight, so it's been hard for me to get all of the protein I need. Unfortunetely good vegan/vegetarian food can be a little pricey. :/ 

Still! Hope this doesn't deter you or anything. Vegetarian diets can be very healthy, and animal friendly! 

Oh, and Edit: Tofurky/Morningstar brand products are AMAZING. SO good.


----------



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

BrainError said:


> Are you thinking of giving it a shot?
> 
> I've been a vegetarian for about four years now, and it works for me. Just make sure you're financially able to cater to your dietary needs. I stopped eating meat for moral reasons, and wouldn't feel comfortable starting back up, but money has been a little tight, so it's been hard for me to get all of the protein I need. Unfortunetely good vegan/vegetarian food can be a little pricey. :/
> 
> ...


 Yes, once again after becoming a vegetarian for 6 or 8 months then stopping. Yes, I found that tonight when I was buying vegetarian sausages. It was difficult when I first became a vegetarian but now I know what stuff I can buy and that. I bought Quron products.


----------



## sansd (Mar 22, 2006)

I've been vegetarian for 14 years.


----------



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

carambola said:


> I've been vegetarian for 14 years.


 Well done.


----------



## rainbowOne (Sep 26, 2010)

I've been a vegetarian all my life. Honestly I don't think it's more expensive. I can feed myself very cheaply  It's just vegetarian specific restaurants tend to be a bit dear. 

The internet is good cos there's TONS of veggie recipes out there.

Also - if you like Quorn, I HIGHLY reccomend the Quorn recipe book. It's wonderful


----------



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

rainbowOne said:


> I've been a vegetarian all my life. Honestly I don't think it's more expensive. I can feed myself very cheaply  It's just vegetarian specific restaurants tend to be a bit dear.
> 
> The internet is good cos there's TONS of veggie recipes out there.
> 
> Also - if you like Quorn, I HIGHLY reccomend the Quorn recipe book. It's wonderful


 Quorn seemed to be a bit more expensive but you can get other vegetarian products that aren't expensive. I'll see about getting the Quorn recipe book because I did find myself eating more Quorn products than other vegetarian products.


----------



## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

Hi Slxx



LoL


----------



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

Kennnie said:


> Hi Slxx
> 
> LoL


 Hi Kennnie.


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

I find that a vegetarian diet is WAY cheaper than a meat diet. It probably just depends on what type of food you eat. My food costs are surprisingly low, even considering that I eat like a pig.

As for my opinion on vegetarianism, I think it's the only way to go. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but I've never heard a single valid argument why meat-eating is acceptable.


----------



## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm the worst vegetarian ever. I'm good at home, but until veggie burger technology has advanced to the point where it doesn't taste like sponge then I'm always going to be at a disadvantage when I'm out. I've had some delicious veggie burgers (at home, of course), but when I'm at a restaurant and the _only_ veg option they have is a brick of tofu on a bun? Barf. Literally. Barf.



Ape in space said:


> I find that a vegetarian diet is WAY cheaper than a meat diet. It probably just depends on what type of food you eat.


I find grocery shopping without meat to be quite a bit cheaper as well. Meat is _expensive_.


----------



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> I find that a vegetarian diet is WAY cheaper than a meat diet. It probably just depends on what type of food you eat. My food costs are surprisingly low, even considering that I eat like a pig.
> 
> As for my opinion on vegetarianism, I think it's the only way to go. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but I've never heard a single valid argument why meat-eating is acceptable.


 A vegetarian diet is more healthier and theres loads of others things you can eat instead of meat/fish.


----------



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

zookeeper said:


> I'm the worst vegetarian ever. I'm good at home, but until veggie burger technology has advanced to the point where it doesn't taste like sponge then I'm always going to be at a disadvantage when I'm out. I've had some delicious veggie burgers (at home, of course), but when I'm at a restaurant and the _only_ veg option they have is a brick of tofu on a bun? Barf. Literally. Barf.
> 
> I find grocery shopping without meat to be quite a bit cheaper as well. Meat is _expensive_.


 It all depends on what vegetarian product you chose.


----------



## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

Vegetarian 2 years
Watch Earthlings and Food Inc, if you can still eat meat after then I won't argue with you.
That's my view on it lol
I love animals and I think eating meat is pointless


----------



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

kathy903 said:


> Vegetarian 2 years
> Watch Earthlings and Food Inc, if you can still eat meat after then I won't argue with you.
> That's my view on it lol
> I love animals and I think eating meat is pointless


 I don't think I'll eat meat, I'm becoming a vegetarian again.


----------



## watashi (Feb 6, 2008)

I've been for about 5 years, the main difficulty is finding food to replace meat that would give me all the right vitamins. In other countries they have meat replacing products, which I can't find in stores around here. I've been experiencing a bit of vitamin deficiency and it made my hair thinner. I try to take multivitamins now. As much as I like being a vegetarian (meat grosses me out actually), I think I'll need to eat somethng non vegetarian once in a while to keep myself healthy.


----------



## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

Ape in space said:


> As for my opinion on vegetarianism, I think it's the only way to go. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but I've never heard a single valid argument why meat-eating is acceptable.


You're right, it does sound arrogant.

That kind of attitude is why vegetarians are laughed at. So you're saying meat-eating is unacceptable? Who says what's acceptable and what isn't, and in what way do YOU find it unacceptable?

If you said something more along the lines of "I've never heard a single _argument that I agree with_ for why meat-eating is _better than vegetarianism_", somebody might actually take you seriously.


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

Duke of Prunes said:


> You're right, it does sound arrogant.
> 
> That kind of attitude is why vegetarians are laughed at. So you're saying meat-eating is unacceptable? Who says what's acceptable and what isn't, and in what way do YOU find it unacceptable?
> 
> If you said something more along the lines of "I've never heard a single _argument that I agree with_ for why meat-eating is _better than vegetarianism_", somebody might actually take you seriously.


No, vegetarians are laughed at because they are different and people like to make fun of them. If you want examples of arrogance, try being a vegetarian who goes out to eat with a bunch of meat-eaters, and listen to all the ridicule you get even though you didn't even mention anything about being a vegetarian. Not all meat-eaters are disrespectful, but there is no contest as to which side overall is more disrespectful. Besides, the OP was asking for our opinions on vegetarianism, and I gave mine. So I was actually being generous to the other side when I suggested that I might sound arrogant. It's not like I'm going around bugging people about it.

And by acceptable, I mean morally acceptable. If we were talking about something like slavery, I doubt anyone would object to what I said or say that my strong stance was arrogant. I see this issue and slavery in the same light, and the fact that one involves humans and the other involves other animals doesn't change that. I don't see any of the arguments for the moral acceptability of meat-eating as valid arguments, therefore that's what I said.


----------



## viv (Feb 8, 2009)

Ape in space said:


> I find that a vegetarian diet is WAY cheaper than a meat diet. It probably just depends on what type of food you eat. My food costs are surprisingly low, even considering that I eat like a pig.


What do you buy for protein? As much as I love tofu, I rarely buy it because it's more than I like to pay for food. (I am really, _really_ cheap when it comes to groceries.) I know beans are relatively cheap, but are there other options?


----------



## arronax (Jun 13, 2011)

I lost my reply after hitting the Back button. F*** Google Chrome (if anyone knows how to override this behavior, please let me know).

Anyway, I'm a vegetarian for 5 months and I love it 



watashi said:


> I've been for about 5 years, the main difficulty is finding food to replace meat that would give me all the right vitamins. In other countries they have meat replacing products, which I can't find in stores around here. I've been experiencing a bit of vitamin deficiency and it made my hair thinner. I try to take multivitamins now. As much as I like being a vegetarian (meat grosses me out actually), I think I'll need to eat somethng non vegetarian once in a while to keep myself healthy.


You don't have to. Just do a vitamin diet once in a while (vitamins found in fat can be stored in your body fat for long periods), eat supplemented breakfast cereals and soy milk, use Marmite in your cooking and it should be alright.

See http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vegetarian-diet/HQ01596/NSECTIONGROUP=2


----------



## WTFnooooo (Mar 27, 2010)

I don't have a problem with them but I have a problem when they start blabbering about meat-eaters being immoral, which is hard not to happen because it seems like one of the main(or _the _main) reason_s_ why vegetarians don't eat meat it's because of the killing of other animals.
I doubt there is 1 that is a vegetarian* just *because thinks meat-eating is unhealthy for him/her.


----------



## rainbowOne (Sep 26, 2010)

viv said:


> What do you buy for protein? As much as I love tofu, I rarely buy it because it's more than I like to pay for food. (I am really, _really_ cheap when it comes to groceries.) I know beans are relatively cheap, but are there other options?


Nuts are good for protein I think


----------



## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

viv said:


> What do you buy for protein? As much as I love tofu, I rarely buy it because it's more than I like to pay for food. (I am really, _really_ cheap when it comes to groceries.) I know beans are relatively cheap, but are there other options?


Chick peas are the greatest thing ever.

Yum.


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

viv said:


> What do you buy for protein? As much as I love tofu, I rarely buy it because it's more than I like to pay for food. (I am really, _really_ cheap when it comes to groceries.) I know beans are relatively cheap, but are there other options?


One of my staples is lentils, which I use in the Indian food I eat every day. That combined with brown rice provides all the essential amino acids. I also eat whole wheat pasta, oats, whole grain cereal, various beans, some dairy, sometimes quinoa. I eat soy / tofu sometimes, but the other things are more than enough for my needs, so it's not required.


----------



## viv (Feb 8, 2009)

zookeeper said:


> Chick peas are the greatest thing ever.
> 
> Yum.


Oh man, I love hummus. I haven't made it for months. I should make some.


----------



## rainbowOne (Sep 26, 2010)

WTFnooooo said:


> I don't have a problem with them but I have a problem when they start blabbering about meat-eaters being immoral, which is hard not to happen because it seems like one of the main(or _the _main) reason_s_ why vegetarians don't eat meat it's because of the killing of other animals.
> I doubt there is 1 that is a vegetarian* just *because thinks meat-eating is unhealthy for him/her.


I agree, I don't even like it when vegetarians go on to meat eaters about why they should be veggies, and I'm a veggie myself.
I'm purely veggie because I was brought up vegetarian, and to me, the idea of eating meat is gross, but I know for others it's different. I don't mind that.

however I hate when I say 'I'm vegetarian' and the other person immediately thinks I'm some sort of crazed PETA person and gives me a lecture on why it's OK to eat meat. I'm not bothered if others eat meat or not, I just don't, and won't.


----------



## viv (Feb 8, 2009)

Ape in space said:


> One of my staples is lentils, which I use in the Indian food I eat every day. That combined with brown rice provides all the essential amino acids. I also eat whole wheat pasta, oats, whole grain cereal, various beans, some dairy, sometimes quinoa. I eat soy / tofu sometimes, but the other things are more than enough for my needs, so it's not required.


Thanks for the response, Ape in space. I'll have to look into recipes with lentils. I've never cooked with them before.


----------



## viv (Feb 8, 2009)

rainbowOne said:


> Nuts are good for protein I think


Thanks .


----------



## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

And quinoa. Lots of protein and super yum.


----------



## arronax (Jun 13, 2011)

Some dishes I love:

Red lentils with carrots, potatoes, tomatoes, onions and curry.
Chopped broccolis, onions, carrots with mustard and soy sauce in a wok.

Hum, I'm getting hungry!

For proteins : nettle, lentils, peas, tofu, seitan.


----------



## beethoven (Jan 17, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> And by acceptable, I mean morally acceptable. If we were talking about something like slavery, I doubt anyone would object to what I said or say that my strong stance was arrogant. I see this issue and slavery in the same light, and the fact that one involves humans and the other involves other animals doesn't change that. I don't see any of the arguments for the moral acceptability of meat-eating as valid arguments, therefore that's what I said.


Agreed. This is called moral schizophrenia and it's very well documented by Professor Gary Francione. It's the self-defense mechanism meat-eaters use to cope with all the pain and suffering they finance.


----------



## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

And there's the stereotypical self-righteous vegetarian attitude in full force.


----------



## Donnie in the Dark (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm a veggie for basically all my life. I would never even consider going to meat. 
Just why? Why would you want to eat a.... dead thing. that used to be alive. And now its dead and your going to put it in your mouth and then your body????
I love being vegetarian.


----------



## Donnie in the Dark (Mar 15, 2011)

Duke of Prunes said:


> And there's the stereotypical self-righteous vegetarian attitude in full force.


 Yes, we are self righteousness because we can afford to be as we don't demand that harmless animals get killed for us to gave food, when alternatives are available. Heres to not killing things! :clap


----------



## layitontheline (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm a vegetarian simply because I don't like to eat animals. The texture of meat, the idea, it all just grosses me out. But I don't pretend to know that vegetarianism is healthier or unhealthier, and I have nothing against meat-eaters. Let me eat my veggie burger and you eat your meat burger and we'll get along just fine.


----------



## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

I've been vegetarian for about eleven years now. I like it. Meat doesn't seem like food to me anymore, although I am not at all bothered by other people eating it.

The only thing I don't like about being vegetarian is the whole restaurant experience. In fact, I kind of hate eating at restaurants because everyone seems to think that fish sauce and beef broth are in fact vegetables. Also, I dislike a lot of vegetarian restaurants because they are way too heavy on the hippie crap.


----------



## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

No issues with it, but it is not a lifestyle for me. I love to eat meat and I don't feel that bad for the animals while doing so. Moral relativism in full effect I suppose.


----------



## beethoven (Jan 17, 2011)

Duke of Prunes said:


> And there's the stereotypical self-righteous vegetarian attitude in full force.


Yeah, justifying the deliberate infliction of pain on sentient creatures in order to satiate your taste buds can be hard, if not impossible. Calling vegetarians self-righteous is much easier.


----------



## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

Trying to justify a loaded statement feeds into the reaction wanted and puts you in a defensive position. It honestly is easier and best to ignore those accusations or label them as a gross stereotype if the argumentative attitude used is rude.


----------



## rainbowOne (Sep 26, 2010)

pita said:


> I've been vegetarian for about eleven years now. I like it. Meat doesn't seem like food to me anymore, although I am not at all bothered by other people eating it.
> 
> The only thing I don't like about being vegetarian is the whole restaurant experience. In fact, I kind of hate eating at restaurants because everyone seems to think that fish sauce and beef broth are in fact vegetables. Also, I dislike a lot of vegetarian restaurants because they are w*ay too heavy on the hippie crap*.


seeeeeriously! It's so annoying! 
I'm lucky where I live there are a lot of Indian restaurants which are vegetarian from religion or something, but outside my city... most vegetarian places are all sitting on cardboard boxes sniffing incense or worse. :lol


----------



## rockyraccoon (Dec 13, 2010)

I have been vegetarian for many, many years now, and I will never eat meat again. The idea of eating meat simply grosses me out. When I see the meat I imagine all the animals suffering, the slaughterhouse, all that stuff and it just grosses me out. Also just before I became a vegetarian I would imagine the animal being butchered and in my mind I would imagine locking eyes with that poor animal as it was being slaughtered. I still have the images in my mind after all these years of an imaginary animal looking at me as it's slaughtered. Plus, I love animals dearly. However, I don't push my beliefs on other people, but sometimes I do get apprehensive when I tell people I'm vegetarian because some people like to start an argument.


----------



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

Duke of Prunes said:


> You're right, it does sound arrogant.
> 
> That kind of attitude is why vegetarians are laughed at. So you're saying meat-eating is unacceptable? Who says what's acceptable and what isn't, and in what way do YOU find it unacceptable?
> 
> If you said something more along the lines of "I've never heard a single _argument that I agree with_ for why meat-eating is _better than vegetarianism_", somebody might actually take you seriously.


 Well meat eaters are eating the dead flesh of the innocent. Vegetarians are helping less animals being slaughtered simply because the less meat that is needed the less they have to kill and the less they kill the more animals that are saved. Being vegetarian is healthier. So no vegetarian should be laughed at, just because we chose a healthier life style than you meat eaters.


----------



## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

slxx said:


> Well meat eaters are eating the dead flesh of the innocent. Vegetarians are helping less animals being slaughtered simply because the less meat that is needed the less they have to kill and the less they kill the more animals that are saved. Being vegetarian is healthier. So no vegetarian should be laughed at, just because we chose a healthier life style than you meat eaters.


This is the kind of self righteousness that make people instantly derisive towards all vegetarians. Just so you know.

Personally, I think both sides of the debate are absurd and misinformed. You can lead a completely healthy lifestyle as a vegan, vegetarian, pescetarian, red-meat eater, Et Cetera.


----------



## smiles4miles (Jan 17, 2011)

WTFnooooo said:


> I don't have a problem with them but I have a problem when they start blabbering about meat-eaters being immoral, which is hard not to happen because it seems like one of the main(or _the _main) reason_s_ why vegetarians don't eat meat it's because of the killing of other animals.
> *I doubt there is 1 that is a vegetarian just because thinks meat-eating is unhealthy for him/her.*


HERE I AM!! 

I became a vegetarian because I wanted to be more healthy. I started training for a marathon and thought, "I need more fruits and vegetables!" I overloaded on raw veggies. I still ate some meat but slowly weaned myself off of it just because I was living on a college campus and the meat there was less than desirable. After running and working out so much, the vegetables filled me up and just set in my stomach easier. I didn't intentionally decide to become vegetarian actually. I just noticed that meat was less and less desirable as I ate more vegetables. THEN one day I was like **** it, I don't need this.

I will admit that as I started my vegetarianism, I decided to do some research on it. I now can say that yes, I am one for moral reasons. It is more of a health thing for me, personally, though.

And I'm definitely not a stereotypical self-righteous vegetarian. My viewpoint is: to each his own. I will eat dinner with meat eaters and comment that their chicken/bacon sandwich looks good, smells good, etc. I still remember enjoying meat and so I can still relate...I just don't prefer it anymore. Eat whatever the **** you want. It's your life! 

I just hate it when people bother me about my eating habits. I don't bother you about yours so why pick on me and ask about how I'm getting protein? I don't ask if you're watching your saturated fat intake do I? But what really gets me is people who argue against vegetarianism...but haven't done any research on the facts. So all the points they try to make are so invalid and ignorant. Not saying anyone here has done that. Just a general thought.


----------



## smiles4miles (Jan 17, 2011)

Charizard said:


> Personally, I think both sides of the debate are absurd and misinformed. You can lead a completely healthy lifestyle as a vegan, vegetarian, pescetarian, red-meat eater, Et Cetera.


Agreed. This is why I don't bother people about their eating habits / food of choice.


----------



## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

Charizard said:


> This is the kind of self righteousness that make people instantly derisive towards all vegetarians. Just so you know.
> 
> Personally, I think both sides of the debate are absurd and misinformed. You can lead a completely healthy lifestyle as a vegan, vegetarian, pescetarian, red-meat eater, Et Cetera.


 Well that could be the argument of vegetarianism, if meat-eaters are going to laugh at vegetarianism then why can't we laugh at them. Vegetarianism can be more healthier but meat-eaters can have a healthy diet.


----------



## dontcare (Oct 6, 2008)

slxx said:


> Well meat eaters are eating the dead flesh of the innocent. Vegetarians are helping less animals being slaughtered simply because the less meat that is needed the less they have to kill and the less they kill the more animals that are saved. Being vegetarian is healthier. So no vegetarian should be laughed at, just because we chose a healthier life style than you meat eaters.


The whole "vegetarianism is healthier" bit is very much disputed, for one. Besides, I don't see how you can use the flesh-eating argument without going vegan.

Honestly if I think about it I do eat a vegetarian diet for the most part. I much prefer veggies over meat or chicken. I've tried vegan diets too but I really missed the eggs, and I've started eating more dairy now as well. It gives me more food options when I sometimes have little appetite. 
Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk


----------



## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm a former vegetarian myself and although I don't personally have anything against it - I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that everyone can do better on the diet. (I know I didn't for example)

I've got to say though, I find it weird how people mix in morality with dietary choice. Step back for a minute, and realise that death is a perfectly natural and thoroughly neutral process. life begets death and death facilitates life. The dead are returned to the ground and effectively are absorbed back into the earth, plants then gain this through roots, animals eat the plants, other animals eat those animals and then die themselves. And thus things go full circle.

Morality is a human construct - a mental abstraction that doesn't exist; all actions are neutral in the grand scheme of things. Morality is a result of civilization - the grouping of humans into close tightly knit communities who need to coexist. We are animals just like everything else on this planet, and our natural tendencies of doing anything to get ahead - including killing, stealing and all the other 'bad' things are merely hard wired instincts designed to propagate the best and most resourceful of our species. (in other words natural selection) 
But like I said, becoming civilized has meant we have had to try and over-ride this - helped I might add by institutions such as religion for their own self-preservating and control based reasons. 

I see vegetarianism as an extension of this mindset into the dietary realm. Something not always thought out well enough by those practicing. Indeed, if we are to look at native cultures, they all eat animal products and eat meat at least to some extent. And guess what, they are the healthiest people on the planet.(Okinawans, Kitavians, Pima Indians etc.) There has never been and never will be a natural vegan culture and the few Vegetarian one's are the product of our dear friend religion.


----------



## smiles4miles (Jan 17, 2011)

dontcare said:


> The whole "vegetarianism is healthier" bit is very much disputed, for one.


People who eat any kind of diet can be healthy and also very unhealthy. Ideally it should be "healthier" but its very easy to go into carb overload. You can eat pizza and drink soda all day long and call yourself a vegetarian! So I agree it can be disputed. If you make smart choices about what you put in your body, it can be healthy. If you're not careful and you lack self-control, a vegetarian can be even more unhealthy than a meat eater. But this can happen to anyone. It goes for ANY diet.


----------



## smiles4miles (Jan 17, 2011)

Paper Samurai said:


> I've got to say though, I find it weird how people mix in morality with dietary choice. Step back for a minute, and realise that death is a perfectly natural and thoroughly neutral process.


realize*

Oh man. this would be totally understandable and relevant to vegetarianism if we ate animals that died of natural causes. But we don't because then we'd really be in trouble (we'd be contracting more diseases from them)!

For most people it's not just the act of eating animals. It's the fact that these animals are bred and "raised" in inhumane conditions, tortured and abused merely for the purpose of us enjoying a meal. And we don't need meat to survive. Especially not most of the meat everyone eats. I'd hardly call that real meat! Most of those animals are injected with growth hormones, antibiotics and other chemicals that are essentially poisons to our bodies.


----------



## Harassment Panda (Jun 22, 2011)

I'd love to be one. I hate animal cruelty but if someone would hand me a hot dog or something I'd take it.


----------



## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

smiles4miles said:


> realize*


'Realise' is a British spelling.


----------



## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

smiles4miles said:


> realize*
> 
> Oh man. this would be totally understandable and relevant to vegetarianism if we ate animals that died of natural causes. But we don't because then we'd really be in trouble (we'd be contracting more diseases from them)!
> 
> For most people it's not just the act of eating animals. It's the fact that these animals are bred and "raised" in inhumane conditions, tortured and abused merely for the purpose of us enjoying a meal. And we don't need meat to survive. Especially not most of the meat everyone eats. I'd hardly call that real meat! Most of those animals are injected with growth hormones, antibiotics and other chemicals that are essentially poisons to our bodies.


I don't mean for this to cause offence, but I would advise not to try and correct spelling or grammar unless you absolutely know it's incorrect.
'Realise' is a perfectly legitimate British spelling. And the two seem to be freely interchangeable in international usage.

Moving back on point, yes animals are killed before their time by human hands. The same happens in the wild though, so I see no issue with that.

I disagree with your point that we don't need meat - we need animal products in our diet in some form. And some people have strong intolerance/allergies to dairy and or eggs. Meat for all it's supposed faults causes no allergic reactions. And indeed some parts, such as the liver are some of the most nutritious things available in the human diet. Which again, traditional cultures have no qualms in eating.

The chemical/antibiotic element is a null factor in my opinion too, which seems to stem from animal rights group propaganda more that anything. The same argument can be made against crops grown conventionally, with their pesticides, fungicides, biological engineering and contamination. And even if this weren't the case; this can't be said about free range, humanely raised meat. Which is something I personally support.


----------



## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

^ However, in the wild animals usually get to see sunlight at some point in their lives. Not so much for most on factory farms.


----------



## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

bluedragon said:


> i understand if you don't like meat, but ethical vegetarianism, i do not get. it appears to me that it's ok to abuse animals for food consumption. they lack consciousness and awareness. they have a limited capacity and it's like they just don't know what's going on when they experience pain. they are hardly sentient. god made meat taste good for a reason.


So why don't you go out and kick some puppies??


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

Paper Samurai said:


> Morality is a human construct - a mental abstraction that doesn't exist; all actions are neutral in the grand scheme of things. Morality is a result of civilization - the grouping of humans into close tightly knit communities who need to coexist. We are animals just like everything else on this planet, and our natural tendencies of doing anything to get ahead - including killing, stealing and all the other 'bad' things are merely hard wired instincts designed to propagate the best and most resourceful of our species. (in other words natural selection)


There's a difference between what's true from a universal perspective and what is done in practice. Refraining from cruelty may not have any universal significance, but in practice we realize that inflicting cruelty on a creature that can experience pain, suffering, loss, etc. is wrong because we can imagine that action being performed against us and can recognize it as unpleasant, and therefore we can't justify inflicting it on another creature who, after all, has no more significance than us. This reasoning is usually accepted when applied to humans, but to be consistent, it needs to be applied to the other animals, since they also experience the same types of suffering that we do. Otherwise we would have to tolerate treating other humans like commodities and killing them for meat, which I doubt anyone would be in favour of.


----------



## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

Ape in space said:


> There's a difference between what's true form a universal perspective and what is done in practice. Refraining from cruelty may not have any universal significance, but in practice we realize that inflicting cruelty on a creature that can experience pain, suffering, loss, etc. is wrong because we can imagine that action being performed against us and can recognize it as unpleasant, and therefore we can't justify inflicting it on another creature who, after all, has no more significance than us. This reasoning is usually accepted when applied to humans, but to be consistent, it needs to be applied to the other animals, since they also experience the same types of suffering that we do. Otherwise we would have to tolerate treating other humans like commodities and killing them for meat, which I doubt anyone would be in favour of.


Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in inflicting suffering needlessly. Which is something I think we can both agree on. Where we differ is that I believe eating meat is a necesity. Killing animals therefore to me has a purpose - I however will add the caveat that I also believe in treating animals well and ensuring that they have a good life under our stewardship. When the time comes, it's also possible to ensure quick and painless death. This to me is the most correct way in an imperfect world.


----------



## PaysageDHiver (Jun 18, 2011)

I've become convinced that eating animals from factory farms is morally indefensible, for just the reason given by Ape in space. Sadly, I am not a vegetarian at present, though I'm taking steps to become one. Bringing one's practices in line with morality can be a *****.


----------



## Andrew1980 (Feb 28, 2009)

Ape in space said:


> As for my opinion on vegetarianism, I think it's the only way to go. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but I've never heard a single valid argument why meat-eating is acceptable.


I feel sick when I have not eaten meat for more than a day. I do not like the poor treatment of animals though.


----------



## smiles4miles (Jan 17, 2011)

Paper Samurai said:


> I don't mean for this to cause offence, but I would advise not to try and correct spelling or grammar unless you absolutely know it's incorrect.
> 'Realise' is a perfectly legitimate British spelling. And the two seem to be freely interchangeable in international usage.
> 
> Moving back on point, yes animals are killed before their time by human hands. The same happens in the wild though, so I see no issue with that.
> ...


Understandable on the spelling correction. I honestly wasn't aware. I apologize for that.

As for your arguments against what I said.... All I can say is, I've done quite a bit of research on it. And being a student for so long, I've become very practiced at sifting through credible and non credible sources. I've also looked at biased and unbiased material. I still stand by what I said. I don't believe your arguments are correct based on what I know is true.

It's pointless to argue this topic. I just wanted to jump in because I had nothing better to do at the time.


----------



## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

smiles4miles said:


> Understandable on the spelling correction. I honestly wasn't aware. I apologize for that.
> 
> As for your arguments against what I said.... All I can say is, I've done quite a bit of research on it. And being a student for so long, I've become very practiced at sifting through credible and non credible sources. I've also looked at biased and unbiased material. I still stand by what I said. I don't believe your arguments are correct based on what I know is true.
> 
> It's pointless to argue this topic. I just wanted to jump in because I had nothing better to do at the time.


My apologies too; reading back my message I didn't mean for it to come across as severe as it did. Tone is definitely something hard to convey through text over the internet. I also go on other message boards for quite technical subjects and the willingness of many on there to split hairs has made me a little touchy to the whole thing I'm sad to say.

It does sound from reading the above, that you came into the discussion with your mind made up already. This is not usually a position that allows someone to gain new ideas. There is a quotation, that I have found extremely relevant over the last few years and that seems really pertinent here: 'The more I come to know, the more I realise that I actually know nothing'. Be flexible in your thinking and open to everything.


----------



## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

bluedragon said:


> I was referring to the animals that are supposed to be eaten. Puppies appear more sentient to me. They are more intelligent and complex. There is also no reason to harm a puppy.


So, because you like them more they are more deserving of compassion?

And who decides what animals are "supposed to be eaten?" If i raise a puppy for food, it's "supposed to be eaten."


----------



## seraph1bk (Jun 21, 2011)

Understand this: The nutritional information that the government has been feeding us is a load of bull. (Food Pyramid?!?!) 

Your brain and nervous system require a healthy amount of saturated animal fats and proteins to function properly. We have been hunter/gatherers for over 90% of the human existence, your body isn't equipped to handle such a drastic change in diet. And gathering was meant to supplement the diet, not replace. Agriculture is a fairly new development.

Carbohydrates are the only macro nutrients you can exclude from your diet completely and be fine, but you'll have terrible breathe, so some carbohydrates are recommended this day and age. Usually under 100g daily.

Studies have shown that strict vegetarians/vegans are more likely to suffer from depression than other groups. 

Factory farms are a solution that has developed from a need. FOOD. You want another system? Think of one that is viable for an increasing population and lobby for it. The way I see it. To be sustainable, you have to somehow decrease world population and then rely on local farms.


----------



## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

seraph1bk said:


> Factory farms are a solution that has developed from a need. FOOD. You want another system? Think of one that is viable for an increasing population and lobby for it. The way I see it. To be sustainable, you have to somehow decrease world population and then rely on local farms.


But producing meat for a growing population is _not_ sustainable. The environmental impact of the demand for meat is incredible, arguably greater than that of transportation.


----------



## seraph1bk (Jun 21, 2011)

zookeeper said:


> But producing meat for a growing population is _not_ sustainable. The environmental impact of the demand for meat is incredible, arguably greater than that of transportation.


I understand that. And therein lies the problem.
There's two ends to every event. A problem and a solution. Everyone dwells on the problems. Nobody comes up with solutions. So until otherwise, say nothing on the matter.

Recently, there has been a solution. Growing meat, every bit as nutritional as the real deal. We'll see how this pans out.


----------



## rainbowOne (Sep 26, 2010)

I don't get how people can claim that vegetarianism is 'healthier' or 'unhealthier'. There are millions of healthy vegetarians, but equally many unhealthy ones - yes, just as there are healthy and unhealthy meat-eaters. You can be a vegetarian and just eat pizza and chips all the time, or you can follow a balanced diet and eat healthily. 

That being said, I think that vegetarians are often more likely to be healthier -not because the diet is any healthier, but because they're more likely to think about their food and what they're eating.


----------



## sleepytime (Feb 18, 2011)

Tempeh is way way nicer than tofu in my opinion. Seitan is pretty nice too. Quinoa and chickpeas are other good ways to get protein into your diet.

I'm addicted to roasted chickpeas...

http://wordstoeatby.blogspot.com/2005/01/snack-time-curry-roasted-chick-peas.html


----------



## seraph1bk (Jun 21, 2011)

Avoid soy products. Unless it's fermented soy.


----------



## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

bluedragon said:


> No, lol, it's not about what i LIKE...that's ridiculous
> The animals that lack awareness/consciousness. Im not saying God says they're supposed to be eaten. Its frustrating when illiterate people have no idea what youre writing about and you made it as clear as possible.


So who decides which animals lack awareness/consciousness? In some places horses are used for meat, while in other places they're considered to be man's best friend.

And I _profusely_ apologize for frustrating you. It's not that I'm having problems reading what you wrote, it's just that you're throwing out statements and not backing them up.

(p.s. - if you're going to talk about illiteracy, _I'm_ has an apostrophe. So does _it's_ and _you're_. Just a note for next time )


----------



## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

seraph1bk said:


> To be sustainable, you have to somehow decrease world population and then rely on local farms.


There's enough food to go around. The problem is cost and distribution.


----------



## penguin runner (Apr 28, 2010)

bluedragon said:


> I was referring to the animals that are supposed to be eaten. Puppies appear more sentient to me. They are more intelligent and complex. There is also no reason to harm a puppy.


I'd just like to point out that pigs are often thought to be much more intelligent than dogs. And also quite social. Yet pigs are quite tasty to a lot of people and therefore people have no qualms in eating them.

Pigs have been able to recognize themselves in mirrors realizing it's not a window looking at another pig. That's something that not all animals can do and may show some sort of self awareness.

Also how do you decide which animals are 'supposed to be eaten'? Can't we say anything we can kill can be eaten with the whole food chain dealy? I guess I don't believe that things that are 'natural' are inherently good or bad. Like someone said a few pages ago, morality is a human construct, so why should nature peak its head back in?

I'm not against people eating meat, as long as their argument for doing so is logically consistent.


----------



## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

penguin runner said:


> I'm not against people eating meat, as long as their argument for doing so is logically consistent.


Is my logic consistent?

I am an apex predator at the top of the food chain. I will nom on the tasty flesh of whatever other animal I please, and then when I die other animals will nom on the grass that grows from my remains.

/rawr


----------



## OpiodArmor (Jun 15, 2011)

slxx said:


> Well meat eaters are eating the dead flesh of the innocent. Vegetarians are helping less animals being slaughtered simply because the less meat that is needed the less they have to kill and the less they kill the more animals that are saved. Being vegetarian is healthier. So no vegetarian should be laughed at, just because we chose a healthier life style than you meat eaters.


"The innocent", haha I'm sorry but I literally lol'd when I read that. If by "innocent" you mean a creature that would straight up eat YOU if it had the opportunity then yes, so very _very_ innocent.

(I pictured a bear tearing you apart when you said this; hence the lol's)

Life eats life. It always has and always will. I don't have a problem with people that choose to deny themselves the tasty tasty flesh of the innocent (lol, sorry, that just really cracked me up) and I'd figure they won't have a problem with my personal choices either.

Time to eat some innocents 8)

edit- And that don't make any sense bro. If you don't eat the flesh of the innocent then they simply will raise less innocents, ya know? So you're really hurting the innocent more then helping them. Due to my desire for the flesh of the innocent more innocents are raised; you, on the other hand, refuse to eat the flesh of the innocent and therefore you're causing less innocents to be born!

I'm literally helping the innocent live while you vegatarians are causing the innocents to never even be born!

Ironic, lol.


----------



## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

I am mostly a vegetarian but I am not super strict about it. I don't buy any meat for myself but I decided that I would sometimes accept it if it was offered to me. I believe that humans are naturally omnivorous and we need (at least i know I need) animal protein in our diets. It is possible to get it from cheese, milk or eggs instead of flesh and I get most of mine that way. However, sometimes, usually after like a year or more of no meat whatsoever I'll feel like my body is craving it. Then eating a little bit usually satisfies this craving for another several months. It makes me wonder if there is something in meat my body needs or something.

In terms of morality, I think vegetarianism is preferable but I don't think eating meat is indefensible. If our bodies need animal protein, I think it's rather silly to argue that everyone must get it through eggs and cheese. Animals are still being exploited and in actuality egg laying hens are killed when they become less productive which is much sooner than they would die if allowed to live out their lives. Not to mention what happens to unneeded roosters and steers. 

Of course those flaws aren't inherent in vegetarianism and could be avoided if you raised your own animals but they are something to think about it for most of us. 

There are also people, such as my mother who has digestive problems, who simply don't do well on a vegetarian diet. Observing this really helped convince me that vegetarianism is not the natural diet for humans. So I think vegetarianism is good if you can do it and feel healthy but I don't think there is anything morally wrong with eating meat. 

Factory farms suck though and I am happy not to support them. I would recommend everyone to buy meat from real, local farms.


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

OpiodArmor said:


> "The innocent", haha I'm sorry but I literally lol'd when I read that. If by "innocent" you mean a creature that would straight up eat YOU if it had the opportunity then yes, so very _very_ innocent.
> 
> (I pictured a bear tearing you apart when you said this; hence the lol's)
> 
> ...


Cows, pigs, chickens, etc. don't eat humans. And even for creatures that do, it wouldn't make it acceptable to kill them unnecessarily. After all, most of the meat we get from dangerous animals comes from going out and hunting them, not from defending ourselves against an attack by them.

Not eating the flesh of innocents means they raise less innocents. Which is a good thing. How is it beneficial for an animal to be born only to spend its life in misery and then be slaughtered for food? Not being born is preferable to that. We try to curb the overpopulation of humans for the same reason.

Regarding personal choices, I would not bug or harass a meat-eater about his choices, and I wouldn't even talk about the subject unless he brought it up. But at the same time, I would not pretend that meat-eating is an equally valid option, because the personal choice in this situation affects the life of another creature, and I haven't seen any convincing argument as to why killing animals for food doesn't violate basic moral principles.


----------



## SMOOZIE (May 26, 2011)

It seems to me that many people have this "either or" attitude.

Not all animals grown for food live in misery. Controlled organic farming is an example. I think there should definitely be respect for animals and every living or non-living thing in our universe, but that does not mean we should throw rose petals at their feet (little exaggerated, I know). The relationship that the Na'vi (in Avatar film) had with the animals in Pandora seems to express what I mean. They killed them, but they never allowed them to suffer.

At the same time, I do think it would be a good idea to promote vegetarianism more for the health benefits of humans as well as for our planet. That should automatically add quality to the shrinking amount of animal farms. Who knows, maybe one day we'll reach a point when most people will voluntarily choose vegetarianism. Again, as long as they can use it correctly making sure they get all nutrients. Great!


----------



## jhu1114 (Jun 26, 2011)

Vegatarianism? Not for me.

Vegatarianism LACK iron, calcuim protein, vitamins B1- B12, amino acids, Omega -3 fatty acids which are crucial to good health. People need to consult with a nutritionaist before being a vegatarian.

Personally i like being a herbivore.


----------



## Andrew1980 (Feb 28, 2009)

Ape in space said:


> But at the same time, I would not pretend that meat-eating is an equally valid option, because the personal choice in this situation affects the life of another creature, and I haven't seen any convincing argument as to why killing animals for food doesn't violate basic moral principles.


As there are no such things as "basic moral principles", it is hard to provide an argument as to why eating meat falls within them. Morals are a human construct applied on top of reality - most likely a faulty side-effect of our brain. Morals are relative to the human that made them up.

An animal does not die differently depending on if the person killing it had moral or immoral intentions. It would be good to limit killing of animals to that which is necessary, but who decides the point of necessity? For me, I love eating meat, and feel ill when I do not. It is too much of a sacrifice to stop eating meat. If your argument is that we should only do things that are necessary, then you will have to get off the internet as various trees were cleared in providing a path for the network of computers to connect. In reality, even our own survival is not a necessity. It is selfish for us just to live.


----------



## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

I think that everyone, on their 13th birthday, should have to kill and prepare their own dinner. If not, then no meat for you!!

P.S. - these are so ****ing good. Yummmmmmmmmmm.


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

Andrew1980 said:


> As there are no such things as "basic moral principles", it is hard to provide an argument as to why eating meat falls within them. Morals are a human construct applied on top of reality - most likely a faulty side-effect of our brain. Morals are relative to the human that made them up.
> 
> An animal does not die differently depending on if the person killing it had moral or immoral intentions. It would be good to limit killing of animals to that which is necessary, but who decides the point of necessity? For me, I love eating meat, and feel ill when I do not. It is too much of a sacrifice to stop eating meat. If your argument is that we should only do things that are necessary, then you will have to get off the internet as various trees were cleared in providing a path for the network of computers to connect.


Those arguments can just as easily be applied to justify killing other humans for meat, or to justify slavery, or any number of other things that we recognize to be wrong. Why invoke the moral relativity argument when it comes to other animals, but not when it comes to humans? I agree, morals are relative. But practically speaking, we recognize the principle of empathy: we can imagine how it feels to experience pain and suffering, and therefore we do not wish to inflict that pain and suffering on another creature who experiences pain and suffering. That's what I meant by basic moral principles, though I didn't explain what I meant. I don't see any reason why it should apply to humans but not to other animals.

As for necessity, we don't need to eat animals to survive or to live a healthy life, so that determines that it's unnecessary. It might involve some initial sacrifice and a lifestyle change on our part, but it is quite possible to do it, and it is worth it to reduce the impact on animals.


----------



## Andrew1980 (Feb 28, 2009)

Ape in space said:


> Those arguments can just as easily be applied to justify killing other humans for meat, or to justify slavery, or any number of other things that we recognize to be wrong. Why invoke the moral relativity argument when it comes to other animals, but not when it comes to humans? I agree, morals are relative. But practically speaking, we recognize the principle of empathy: we can imagine how it feels to experience pain and suffering, and therefore we do not wish to inflict that pain and suffering on another creature who experiences pain and suffering. That's what I meant by basic moral principles, though I didn't explain what I meant. I don't see any reason why it should apply to humans but not to other animals.


I don't apply any moral principles to other humans either. As to why humans don't kill other humans - genes. Our genes like each other. They want to make more of the same.



> As for necessity, we don't need to eat animals to survive or to live a healthy life, so that determines that it's unnecessary. It might involve some initial sacrifice and a lifestyle change on our part, but it is quite possible to do it, and it is worth it to reduce the impact on animals.


It is not necessary that we survive. In fact, why should there be humans? We could replace all humans with millions of animals. Who decides how many of each species there should be for a given amount of resources? Living is selfish and immoral according to your rules.


----------



## Andrew1980 (Feb 28, 2009)

zookeeper said:


> I think that everyone, on their 13th birthday, should have to kill and prepare their own dinner. If not, then no meat for you!!


I had to watch a lamb get killed before I ate it.


----------



## PaysageDHiver (Jun 18, 2011)

Ape in space seems able to handle this himself, but I cannot resist jumping in.



Andrew1980 said:


> I don't apply any moral principles to other humans either. As to why humans don't kill other humans - genes. Our genes like each other. They want to make more of the same.


Sure, most humans don't make a habit of killing other humans, and that is of course due in large part to our biology. What is at issue is whether it would be _wrong_ to kill a human just for food. On the view you've expressed, there would be nothing wrong with it. Such a claim is counterintuitive enough (it's _really _counterintuitive) to require a pretty formidable defense--it certainly cannot be taken as given.

Also note that the claim at issue (that it is wrong to kill another human just for food) does not depend for its truth on there being a moral standard that is independent of humans. I tend to agree with you that morality is in some sense a human (I prefer 'social') construct, but so are art and politics, and neither is any less real for that. Similarly, morality can be real and substantial even if it is a social construct. Morality need not depend for its legitimacy on any transcendent standards.


----------



## Andrew1980 (Feb 28, 2009)

PaysageDHiver said:


> Ape in space seems able to handle this himself, but I cannot resist jumping in.
> 
> Sure, most humans don't make a habit of killing other humans, and that is of course due in large part to our biology. What is at issue is whether it would be _wrong_ to kill a human just for food. On the view you've expressed, there would be nothing wrong with it. Such a claim is counterintuitive enough (it's _really _counterintuitive) to require a pretty formidable defense--it certainly cannot be taken as given.
> 
> Also note that the claim at issue (that it is wrong to kill another human just for food) does not depend for its truth on there being a moral standard that is independent of humans. I tend to agree with you that morality is in some sense a human (I prefer 'social') construct, but so are art and politics, and neither is any less real for that. Similarly, morality can be real and substantial even if it is a social construct. Morality need not depend for its legitimacy on any transcendent standards.


The argument is that it does not make sense to have a set of standards for humans, and not for animals, despite us all being life forms with similar attributes. The problem with that argument is that our values as humans are mostly a product of our genes, and not a product of us sitting down and constructing ideas of what is right and what is wrong based on an ethical framework that someone created (usually based on their interpretation of human feelings such as empathy). Therefore, there is no reason they should make sense under an ethical framework as that is not their purpose. We are not trying to live a good life to go to heaven.

According to most ethical frameworks, it is unethical to live as we cause pain and suffering to other animals by competing for their resources. It ends up being a case of to what degree you are prepared to sacrifice your own lifestyle for that of another animal's lifestyle. It is not a case of not ethical versus ethical. The way we make this decision is determined by things like genes, which urge us to favour not eating other humans (for example).

We may have a sense of right or wrong, but it is only a mechanism to influence our behaviour (just as the desire for sex is a mechanism to get us to have babies), not an indicator that there is actually such thing as "right" or "wrong" in a universal sense.


----------



## PaysageDHiver (Jun 18, 2011)

Andrew1980 said:


> The argument is that it does not make sense to have a set of standards for humans, and not for animals, despite us all being life forms with similar attributes. The problem with that argument is that our values as humans are mostly a product of our genes, and not a product of us sitting down and constructing ideas of what is right and what is wrong based on an ethical framework that someone created (usually based on their interpretation of human feelings such as empathy). Therefore, there is no reason they should make sense under an ethical framework as that is not their purpose. We are not trying to live a good life to go to heaven.


The basic thought here seems to be that morality would make sense/be legitimate/apply to humans _only if_ it is/was constructed by us in a reasoned, deliberate way, and _not_ if it is a product of factors that are outside our control (like genes).

Do you think that politics is just as much a product of our genes as morality? If so, then you're forced to say that politics doesn't rightly apply to us (or isn't legitimate, or doesn't make sense), which is obviously wrong. So, you'll want to say that politics is _not_ just as much a product of our genes as morality. But for that to be right, there must be a relevant difference between the two. The difference can't be that morality is about survival while politics is not, for politics is a cooperative scheme that has persisted because it is conducive to human flourishing, which is just a less biological way of saying that it is conducive to survival. So, what could the difference be?


----------



## rainbowOne (Sep 26, 2010)

jhu1114 said:


> Vegatarianism? Not for me.
> 
> Vegatarianism LACK iron, calcuim protein, vitamins B1- B12, amino acids, Omega -3 fatty acids which are crucial to good health. People need to consult with a nutritionaist before being a vegatarian.
> 
> Personally i like being a herbivore.


sorry, but, herbivore = vegetarian (pretty much). herbivore's don't eat meat.


----------



## lucyinthesky (Mar 29, 2009)

jhu1114 said:


> Vegatarianism? Not for me.
> 
> Vegatarianism LACK iron, calcuim protein, vitamins B1- B12, amino acids, Omega -3 fatty acids which are crucial to good health. People need to consult with a nutritionaist before being a vegatarian.
> 
> Personally i like being a herbivore.


That's incredibly judgmental, I don't lack aaanyyyy of those.


----------



## Noll (Mar 29, 2011)

I don't have anything against it, as long as they let me eat my meat I'll let them eat their food.

My dad is a vegetarian, and once I get older I will probably be a vegetarian too.


----------



## Dale Cooper (Jul 6, 2011)

Cutting out meat and dairy was one of the best things I have ever done.

I lost weight, improved fitness, my acne reduced and so did my allergies.

My conscious feels cleaner too

x


----------



## Cornerstone (Jun 30, 2011)

not a vegetarian, but i cut down my meat consumption (and try to only eat bio- meat) after readin Safran Foer's "Eating Animals". I have nothing but respect, even admiration, for vegetarians.


----------



## Zima (Jul 6, 2011)

Was vegan for a year while maintaining a very high protein diet and proper vitamin intake. No issues as far as I can tell.

Went traveling for 3 months and ate meat while abroad, almost daily. Partly to see if I experience any changes - I heard the lack of meat can lower testosterone. Nothing different...

Now that I'm home I'm cutting back on meat/animal products once again. 

My opinion - just eat a HEALTHY, BALANCED diet. If you can do a bit of research and put a little extra effort into making that diet a vegetarian one, that's wonderful, and I strongly doubt it'll effect your anxiety in any way.


----------



## Bbpuff (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm actually trying to go vegetarian.. It's only been 6 days or so, but hopefully I can keep it up.. I haven't really been tempted to eat any meat yet. ^-^


----------



## Campeador (Jul 5, 2011)

Just recently went veg. It's not that I don't like meat — I do, it tastes great. But I don't need it for nutritional reasons and there's a surplus of food, so I'm not going to starve if I don't eat meat. It's a luxury. And I personally can't justify killing an animal simply because it tastes good. 

Now, if there were a famine (or some apocalyptic event that destroys our food industry), I'd go back to being an omnivore. Survival is the #1 priority and I can then justify taking an animal's life. I don't feel the need to become a vegan because I view dairy and egg production as a symbiotic relationship: we provide the animals with shelter and food, and in return we get their products. Provided, of course, they are not neglected and abused. I would like to start buying locally produced, small-farm eggs and dairy but I can't afford it right now.


----------



## trendyfool (Apr 11, 2010)

I've been pescetarian for about two years  A few days ago I ate meat though...it tasted good, but I don't wanna do it again. I feel better when I know I haven't contributed to the deaths of animals. Wait, that sounds a little bit judgmental. But I don't judge omnivores at all. I mean, I ate meat for a good portion of my life, and I could just as easily go back to eating meat. 

But it seems like being vegetarian is better for the earth in the end. producing meat is much less efficient than producing, say, soybeans, what with the great deal of energy that gets lost in the transfer between feed for animals and animal protein. And farming animals takes up a lot of space. And factory farming is ridiculous and awful...

I eat healthy food. Cutting meat out of my diet hasn't affected my health much, at least as far as I can tell. I feel somewhat lame eating fish, but I only do that every month or two...still, I don't think I can justify it, and I should probably stop soon.

So yeah, omnivores go ahead and eat meat, I won't judge you personally! But...I might judge America as a whole for not doing enough about factory farming.


----------



## trendyfool (Apr 11, 2010)

Campeador said:


> Just recently went veg. It's not that I don't like meat - I do, it tastes great. But I don't need it for nutritional reasons and there's a surplus of food, so I'm not going to starve if I don't eat meat. It's a luxury. And I personally can't justify killing an animal simply because it tastes good.
> 
> Now, if there were a famine (or some apocalyptic event that destroys our food industry), I'd go back to being an omnivore. Survival is the #1 priority and I can then justify taking an animal's life. I don't feel the need to become a vegan because I view dairy and egg production as a symbiotic relationship: we provide the animals with shelter and food, and in return we get their products. Provided, of course, they are not neglected and abused. I would like to start buying locally produced, small-farm eggs and dairy but I can't afford it right now.


good job, this seems like a sensible attitude


----------



## hodson01 (Jul 7, 2011)

Vegetarian has much better one healthy figure and physique of his own choice because in the natural one foods and veggies have the complete amount of the calories and proteins in them.... There is no need of the extra supplements and protein foods along with the veggies...

San Francisco Weight Loss


----------



## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

I'm a vegan and I feel very good physically and spiritually. I still eat too many sweets.


----------



## jennah (Jul 5, 2011)

I've been vegan for over 3 years and was vegetarian for 6 years before that. I also don't eat any sort of sugar and am trying gluten free at the moment.



jhu1114 said:


> Vegatarianism LACK iron, calcuim protein, vitamins B1- B12, amino acids, Omega -3 fatty acids which are crucial to good health. People need to consult with a nutritionaist before being a vegatarian.


That's not true at all. I was recently tested for vitamins and the only thing that was slightly low was my vitamin D, which is common, and I only take a multivitamin twice a week. Protein, calcium, iron, and omega 3's are VERY easy to get from food; and there's a big debate over the necessity of B12.

Vegan/Vegetarianism is one of the healthiest lifestyle choices a person can make. Meat itself isn't unhealthy, it's the type of meat the most people eat - meat that's been treated with hormones and grown unnaturally. If you're going to eat meat, it should be organic, free range meat.

Although I do know many vegetarians that do still eat lots of sweets and processed foods.


----------



## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

In the past I "tried" to be vegan and I got very sick. My own ignorance. About two months ago meat suddenly repulsed me. I can't eat it anymore. I attribute this to spiritual awareness and innate knowledge brought forth by my body. Wow that sounds wacky. Lol


----------



## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

slxx said:


> What's your opinion on it?


i agree with it 100%. i have no problems what so ever with killing animals and eating them, however i just agree that a vegetarian diet is the healthiest diet that a human could possibly eat and that human beings arent even designed to eat meat anyway

meat is ACIDIC and acid is bad for your body and health. the human body needs foods that are alkaline.

human beings are not designed for eating meat. we dont have sharpe teeth like tigers which are designed for ripping flesh. our teeth are designed for grinding. and our stomachs arent designed to digest meat like a tigers stomach is. its very hard for humans to digest meat

and its a myth that we need copias amounts of protein. you can get all of the protein you need from nuts, seeds, veg and fruits. protein is not created in the body by eating protein. its created by eating foods that contain amino acids. and amino acids can be found in fruit and veg

when you cook meat and eggs the heat can destroy the amino acids present

a silver back gorrilla is incredibly muscular and strong. were does it get the amino acids to maintain that muscular physique ? it doesnt eat meat. it eats fruits and veg

we eat cows for its protein and amino acids but were does the cow get its amino acids ? it doesnt eat meat and dairy . it eats grass

its far more unhealthy to have too much protein than it is to have too little. you couldnt have a protein deficiancy even if you wanted one as its very hard to develop a protein deficiancy


----------



## sherbert (Jun 24, 2005)

paulyD said:


> human beings are not designed for eating meat. we don't have sharpe teeth like tigers which are designed for ripping flesh. our teeth are designed for grinding. and our stomachs aren't designed to digest meat like a tigers stomach is. its very hard for humans to digest meat
> 
> and its a myth that we need copias amounts of protein. you can get all of the protein you need from nuts, seeds, veg and fruits. protein is not created in the body by eating protein. its created by eating foods that contain amino acids. and amino acids can be found in fruit and veg


I was a veg. for about three years and eventually tired of it or 'lost faith' in the argument. Does it bother me that other animals suffer to be on my dinner plate? Yes. That is the most profound argument that can be made. I am truly grateful for their sacrifice to feed me.

As for the concept that humans 'aren't designed to eat meat' no. It may not be AS fully developed, but we can eat meat and it has sustained many, many cultures over the millennia. So that argument is bunk. Are you are aware that Buddhist monks consume fish? They have to when there isn't a growing season. The vast majority of cultures consume whatever is available to them (meat included). We survived as a species b/c of our ability to adapt. So you can't _really _compare us to a creature that is solely a carnivore or vegetarian. There just isn't an animal quite like us to compare to.

One thing about being veg.-- you have to eat a lot more to feel full. There's a density to meat that acts as a 'slow-burning' fuel. Even with a lot of soy/temph intake, I was eating nearly twice as much. I have always had a love-hate relationship with food and that became really tiresome. Then you have all of the other detractors too. I felt like being veg. was taking away from my quality of life. Is that selfish? Possibly. Still it's not anymore than my fore-fathers.


----------



## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

I'm not eating beef anymore. After seeing some feedlots all around AZ and the meatpacking industry and how they operate...


----------



## luctus (Mar 31, 2011)

beethoven said:


> Yeah, justifying the deliberate infliction of pain on sentient creatures in order to satiate your taste buds can be hard, if not impossible. Calling vegetarians self-righteous is much easier.


So you have no feelings for the plants you're eating?

Ever watched a tree being chopped down? That breaks my heart. I really don't think it's a lifeless, soul-less thing. I would be just as outraged to see someone tormenting a plant before killing and eating it as I would watching them do it to a chicken. I do not use this argument to be contrary, because I sincerely feel for plants and even feel guilty for eating them if I don't feel that I have done it in the most respectful manner possible. "Respectful" is sustainable treatment, but also gratitude and an awareness of the life you are taking. 
I don't think there's a way for humans to avoid inflicting some kind of pain on sentient beings. Eating only vegetables and fruits doesn't remove you from the food chain.

I think there are other good reasons to be vegetarian or vegan, but I find the moral arguments against eating animals ridiculous, personally. They are not the only living things that feel pain. It's just easier to ignore an ill-treated plant, because it's completely helpless and makes no sound.

Eating plant products is cheaper, requires less overall energy and money, etc. I think these are good reasons for being vegetarian. Eating livestock, such as cows, is so much more costly and impractical, and that's one of the reasons I avoid it. However, I think there are ways for humans to eat animals that are far less cruel than the current methods being used in commercial farming.


----------



## myhalo123 (Nov 18, 2009)

This @ 1:58 to be exact.


----------



## Event Horizon (Feb 23, 2011)

Yeah I've been trying to pick up vegetarianism lately..been doing way better than usual, cutting down my meat consumption significantly, but it can be rather tough because it is expensive. The flavours are wonderful wherever you can find good ones or even make them on your own, but it is hard to find good vegetarian options everywhere. Like, most restaurants won't even offer a good vegetarian option! It is usually something like a brick of tofu on a bun, like a previous author mentioned. Yuck...


----------



## Rodeo3point2 (Jun 18, 2011)

http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357

From the American Dietetic Association. You don't *need* animal products to be healthy at any stage of life.

By the way, the human body is adapted to eat meat in some ways but still retains many herbivorous characteristics. Two millions years ago our ancestors had large brow ridges to anchor chomping muscles and flatter teeth. Well those huge muscles and and flat teeth have mellowed quite substantially since _H. habilis _began including a significant amount of meat in their diets.

However our side-chomping jaw motion is a largely herbivorous trait and so is our elongated intestinal tract. The thing is that true carnivores have shorter intestinal tracts to push meat quickly out of their intestines. People don't handle meat eating so well, we tend to absorb a good deal of the saturated fats and cholesterol. Its no wonder that Heart disease is a top cause of death in countries with heavy meat consumption.

On a different note, for those who complain about self-righteous vegetarians always bothering them, take a moment and think about how much crap vegetarians take for standing up for what they believe in. For most of society, trying to protect innocent, silent and sentient animals from harm qualifies you as a wimp.

Justice is all the more pressing when we are dealing with the defenseless, isn't it?

Apparently not. I guess eating a steak makes you more of a man than someone who stands up for what they believe in, even if its against the grain and likely to make you a pariah for defying gender stereotypes.


----------



## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

I'm eating steak tonight :yes


----------



## candiedsky (Aug 7, 2011)

I think its the best way to eat. I have been vegan for almost 4 years, and a year or so before I was vegetarian. Totally doable!


----------



## barczyl (May 10, 2011)

I have been a vegetarian for around 8 months, but I have screwed up a few times. Became one because living on my own for school was expensive, and meat is also expensive. But I don't know any of the recipes, so I just eat random foods.

Maybe someone could PM me good recipe sites?


----------



## frillylove (Sep 11, 2010)

I think the people who say idiotic things about vegetarians are just as bad as the people who say idiotic things about meat-eaters.

I probably don't agree with most vegetarians when it comes to nutrition or morality, but I won't argue with their lifestyle unless they're pushing it on me. But it won't change the fact that vegetarianism isn't as healthy as people think it is.

Yeah, the food industry is a shame, but 1) that includes vegetarian foods, and 2) I simply can't afford local, grass-fed beef or anything like that.


----------



## Dead Leaves (Aug 20, 2011)

I've been vegan for eight years now. I don't usually tell people because I don't want to be defined by whatever stereotype they have in their heads. Yes, it's for ethical reasons, but I also realize that eating meat is natural. I attribute my decision not to eat animal products to my transhumanist perspective; a perspective that most people don't share.


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

luctus said:


> So you have no feelings for the plants you're eating?
> 
> Ever watched a tree being chopped down? That breaks my heart. I really don't think it's a lifeless, soul-less thing. I would be just as outraged to see someone tormenting a plant before killing and eating it as I would watching them do it to a chicken. I do not use this argument to be contrary, because I sincerely feel for plants and even feel guilty for eating them if I don't feel that I have done it in the most respectful manner possible. "Respectful" is sustainable treatment, but also gratitude and an awareness of the life you are taking.
> I don't think there's a way for humans to avoid inflicting some kind of pain on sentient beings. Eating only vegetables and fruits doesn't remove you from the food chain.
> ...


I'm very pro-environment as well and I hate to see any plant or tree being uprooted. But I don't think there's an equivalency with killing the usual animals. Animals like cows, chickens, etc. have nerves that enable them to feel pain and brains that give them emotions of loss, fear, suffering, etc., which plants don't appear to have. The idea is to minimize the suffering inflicted on creatures, but it's doubtful that plants feel this type of suffering, at least in the traditional sense.

But even if I'm wrong about that, it's still more beneficial to plants to be a vegetarian. In order to raise an animal for food, it has to eat a lot of plants over its lifetime, and the process is wasteful and inefficient, as you alluded to. So given that we have to eat something to survive, the way to go about it, minimizing the amount of suffering inflicted, is to avoid eating animals, since there will be less animals _and _less plants affected that way.

In general, eating lower on the food chain is better because you are destroying less life that way. Eating high on the food chain means destroying all the life that was required to get that animal's energy, starting from the sun and going through multiple wasteful conversion steps.


----------



## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

I like steak. Who else likes steak? :yes


----------



## mind_games (Nov 30, 2008)

Duke of Prunes said:


> I'm eating steak tonight :yes





Duke of Prunes said:


> I like steak. Who else likes steak? :yes


:wife


----------



## LynnNBoys (Jul 13, 2011)

Classified said:


> I'm not eating beef anymore. After seeing some feedlots all around AZ and the meatpacking industry and how they operate...


I have stopped eating red meat/beef, but I still eat fish. I'll eat small amounts of chicken but I'm trying to cut back on it. I also still eat cheese (cutting back slowly), milk, and eggs. I love nuts for protein.

Cutting out beef for environmental, health, and moral reasons.


----------



## luctus (Mar 31, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> I'm very pro-environment as well and I hate to see any plant or tree being uprooted. But I don't think there's an equivalency with killing the usual animals. Animals like cows, chickens, etc. have nerves that enable them to feel pain and brains that give them emotions of loss, fear, suffering, etc., which plants don't appear to have. The idea is to minimize the suffering inflicted on creatures, but it's doubtful that plants feel this type of suffering, at least in the traditional sense.
> 
> But even if I'm wrong about that, it's still more beneficial to plants to be a vegetarian. In order to raise an animal for food, it has to eat a lot of plants over its lifetime, and the process is wasteful and inefficient, as you alluded to. So given that we have to eat something to survive, the way to go about it, minimizing the amount of suffering inflicted, is to avoid eating animals, since there will be less animals _and _less plants affected that way.
> 
> In general, eating lower on the food chain is better because you are destroying less life that way. Eating high on the food chain means destroying all the life that was required to get that animal's energy, starting from the sun and going through multiple wasteful conversion steps.


I'm kinda just free-writing here, so I may have missed a few things or gotten a bit redundant in my wording, but hopefully it's stated clearly enough. Thanks for replying, by the way...this topic has been on my mind a lot and I've wanted to have someone to discuss it with.

My feelings about plants are very much my own personal beliefs. "In the traditional sense"...I agree with you that they do not have nerve endings and may not suffer quite the way an animal does while being slaughtered. But, for lack of a better word, I think it is possible to have a certain relationship and reverence for plants and what they provide, much the way less industrialized cultures (especially hunter-gatherer tribes) would hold their animal food source in such high regard. It's doubtful the animal's suffering during death was alleviated by such a high pedestal, but I think the animals tended to be treated more mercifully (even if killed painfully, they were generally left alone or tended more humanely before death), and certainly seen as more than "meat", a mere product to be used and exploited.

As a side-note, I grew up watching movies like Fern Gully, and got really passionate about the rainforest, which eventually bloomed into a similar feeling toward all plant life. Plants have always been heavily ingrained into my imagination and emotional life, and I'm just as likely to want to go spend some quality time with them as I would any animal, so I suppose I don't really feel any different about the two classes of life. We're destroying our forests with cattle farming, though...and yes vegetarianism is better for the animals (obviously), the environment, and people. 
It's definitely better to eat lower on the food chain...for many of the same reasons you mentioned. It's also just healthier, in general, to avoid chowing down on someone else's stored fat  Animal fat isn't utilized by our metabolism very well, from what I've read.

I'm not much of a moralist, though. I tend to think everything's relative. My decisions are based more on how I feel about something, than any overriding theory or principle. For instance, the alleviation of suffering: I am not exactly convinced that suffering is always a bad thing, in all instances. I do not like to suffer, and do not enjoy inflicting suffering upon other beings, but I know that in certain instances, suffering has been a powerful and transformative force in my life, and there are definitely potential desperate circumstances where I might not feel too guilty bringing it upon other life. I don't condone it (causing pain for mere convenience or profit's sake, or even sadistic pleasure), but to me "suffering" is in many ways just a part of life, and to some degree inevitable. I do think _less suffering_ is preferable to _more_, though...even though I can't say I've arrived at that conclusion from a moral standpoint. It just seems to make sense, on a visceral level, to try to create a more pleasant world.

And yes, while humans have tended toward eating animals at certain times when it was available or necessary, I don't think we've ever eaten as much meat as we do now in Western society. It's only been recently that "meat" has been considered such an important part of our diet...most people in the world, even today, eat a mainly vegetarian diet. In less "developed" nations, this tends to lead to better health so long as they have enough foods. So, I think the argument that it's okay to eat meat because we've "always" done it, is a bit of a skewed argument as well.


----------

