# Why dopaminergics are the most promosing treatment for social anxiety



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> School avoidance and social phobia triggered by haloperidol in patients with Tourette's disorder
> 
> EJ Mikkelsen, J Detlor and DJ Cohen
> 
> Fifteen patients with Tourette's disorder developed school and work avoidance syndromes when treated with low doses (mean 2.5 mg/day) of haloperidol for short periods of time (mean, 8 weeks). The phobic syndromes disappeared completely with discontinuation or reduction of the haloperidol dose. Haloperidol's effects on dopaminergic functioning support a role for catecholamines in the pathogenesis of phobic syndromes. It is not known whether phobias are precipitated by haloperidol only in patients with Tourette's disorder as a consequence of the specific metabolic alterations in this disorder or are a medication side effect in other psychiatric disorders as well.


Altough this is about patients with tourette this further confirms that dopamine is highly implicated in social behaver, and that dopamine antagonism can significantly worsen symptons of social anxiety.

Study's have confirmed that people with social anxiety are at a much higher risk for developping parkinson (1), indicating that we are suffering from dopaminergic dysfunctioning. Dopamine has also been implicated in social status (2) and as last the D2 gene's have been associated with extrovertism (3).

This data supports that dopaminergics are the best treatment for social anxiety, possible options are either MAOI's (parnate, nardil), dopamine agonists (pramipexole, ropinirole) and stimulants (dexedrine, adderall etc).

Anecdotal reports confirm the effiacy of those treatments in social anxiety disorders. Further discission about this subject can be found in this thread.

1. Frequency of social phobia and psychometric properties of the Liebowitz social anxiety scale in Parkinson's disease. PMID: 18661550
2. Dopamine Type 2/3 Receptor Availability in the
Striatum and Social Status in Human Volunteers Full text
3. Variation in DRD2 dopamine gene predicts Extraverted personality. PMID: 19897017


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## shale (Jul 24, 2010)

Hmm, I'm not so sure dopamine is a magic cure. I think if you are already paranoid it will just make it worse and trigger things like schizophrenia, and people with SA tend to be paranoid. Maybe if you took dopaminergics early on before you had a chance to develop much paranoia...


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm the most un-paranoid person you'll ever meet and I have severe SA.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

shale said:


> Hmm, I'm not so sure dopamine is a magic cure. I think if you are already paranoid it will just make it worse and trigger things like schizophrenia, and people with SA tend to be paranoid. Maybe if you took dopaminergics early on before you had a chance to develop much paranoia...


I disagree, if your paranoia is caused by social anxiety then dopaminergics will most likely fix that, as an example we have the experience of rawrboy.
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/pramipexole-98519/

Pramipexole completely fixed he's social anxiety, and there's a massive ammount of anecdotal reports confirming that MAOI's and amphetamine work great for social anxiety.


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## shale (Jul 24, 2010)

I'm just trying to give myself excuses not to stop taking my schizophrenia med which _decreases_ dopamine. Kind of frustrating to think that my social anxiety might get worse if I treat my paranoia.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

shale said:


> I'm just trying to give myself excuses not to stop taking my schizophrenia med which _decreases_ dopamine. Kind of frustrating to think that my social anxiety might get worse if I treat my paranoia.


Well, if you are shizophrenic you definatly shouldnt stop your antipsychotic, its possible that in your case it wont increase social anxiety due to the dopamine hyperactivity in some brain area's and hypoactivity in other area's. A dopamine agonist probably has a differend effect on you then in people with just social anxiety.


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## shale (Jul 24, 2010)

That's true, I think a lot of my social anxiety actually gets triggered from too much dopamine making me paranoid. Just shows how different SA can be from person to person.


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## 1L45TTRI (Feb 10, 2010)

Nice find crazymed!


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## shale (Jul 24, 2010)

rocknroll714 said:


> SAD is not a disorder that is constantly active 24/7, it is only triggered acutely during certain social situations; people with SAD feel perfectly fine when they are alone. Thus, a lowering of DAT and D2 expression in the striatum would not be expected to be found in people with SA in my opinion, nor would a decrease in dopamine release in the striatum, at least not during non-anxiety-provoking situations; on the contrary, a selective lowering of dopamine release _would_ be expected to occur during a socially-anxiety-provoking situation. This is probably the result of the amygdala innervating the striatum somewhere downstream, in which anxiety-triggered activation of the amygdala would result in an acute decrease in dopamine activity in the striatum. They should repeat this study where they monitor dopamine release in the striatum with and without social stressors and see how the results turn out then.


The future is in brain implants that detect when and only when they need to produce more of a specific chemical, rather then pills that create a constant level of the chemical.


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## Under17 (May 4, 2010)

Well I don't really get any of this scientific mumbo-jumbo, but by far the best treatment for my social anxiety, avoidance personality disorder, depression or whatever else it may be is oxycodone + klonopin. Klonopin alone makes me feel a lot less nervous around people, but doesn't give me any confidence or empathy. Maybe empathy isn't the right word, I always have lots of empathy towards other people but I don't enjoy interacting with other people or making other people laugh and smile. Not so when I add oxycodone into the mix, 1 mg of klonopin and 10 mg oxycodone makes me feel rediculously normal (if I take more oxycodone than 10mg then I start to get a little loopy, not that I dislike the feeling). Maybe a stimulant instead of oxycodone might work the same or even better, but I prefer oxycodone because it won't make the ringing in my ears worse (unless it comes with APAP like percocets) and it helps with my chronic pain. It might make me a tad sedated, but I definitely of enjoy the relaxing feeling and my congition doesn't become impaired and I have much less intrusive thoughts. Although my inhibitions and SA are gone temporarily while on these meds, I still have self-control which keeps me from going up and hugging random people even when I want to :b. I have absolutely no paranoia or fear of other people while on this combo, I might take oxycodone on a daily basis for pain but still keep my benzo usage to 2 times a week since it's the least helpful. Hopefully the sense of well-being and confidence it gives me doesn't diminish as long as the oxycodone continues to give me pain relief. I know lots of people love these drugs and love to abuse them, but not everybody taking opiates for pain gets any other benefitial side effects so I'll just consider myself lucky.


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## McMillan (Sep 7, 2009)

Adderall totally obliterated my depression!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Under17 said:


> Well I don't really get any of this scientific mumbo-jumbo, but by far the best treatment for my social anxiety, avoidance personality disorder, depression or whatever else it may be is oxycodone + klonopin. Klonopin alone makes me feel a lot less nervous around people, but doesn't give me any confidence or empathy. Maybe empathy isn't the right word, I always have lots of empathy towards other people but I don't enjoy interacting with other people or making other people laugh and smile. Not so when I add oxycodone into the mix, 1 mg of klonopin and 10 mg oxycodone makes me feel rediculously normal (if I take more oxycodone than 10mg then I start to get a little loopy, not that I dislike the feeling). Maybe a stimulant instead of oxycodone might work the same or even better, but I prefer oxycodone because it won't make the ringing in my ears worse (unless it comes with APAP like percocets) and it helps with my chronic pain. It might make me a tad sedated, but I definitely of enjoy the relaxing feeling and my congition doesn't become impaired and I have much less intrusive thoughts. Although my inhibitions and SA are gone temporarily while on these meds, I still have self-control which keeps me from going up and hugging random people even when I want to :b. I have absolutely no paranoia or fear of other people while on this combo, I might take oxycodone on a daily basis for pain but still keep my benzo usage to 2 times a week since it's the least helpful. Hopefully the sense of well-being and confidence it gives me doesn't diminish as long as the oxycodone continues to give me pain relief. I know lots of people love these drugs and love to abuse them, but not everybody taking opiates for pain gets any other benefitial side effects so I'll just consider myself lucky.


Opiates significantly increase dopamine too


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## Under17 (May 4, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Opiates significantly increase dopamine too


Does klonopin have any dopaminergic effects? Sometimes I can feel slightly euphoric or pleasant off of it but maybe that could be because it gets rid of my tinnitus temporarily which lets me listen to music and stuff. I think I might have read something once about xanax having such so I guess maybe klonopin does too.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I think xanax is the only benzo that increases dopamine, klonopin likely just works by quiting your amygdala wich in turns prevent it from lowering dopamine downstream in social situations.


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## Under17 (May 4, 2010)

Hmm cool, thanks guys.


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I think xanax is the only benzo that increases dopamine, klonopin likely just works by quiting your amygdala wich in turns prevent it from lowering dopamine downstream in social situations.


what about modafinil and SA ? It seems to realease DA in the right place  Did you ever try it ? how do you compare it with adderall ?


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

shale said:


> Hmm, I'm not so sure dopamine is a magic cure. I think if you are already paranoid it will just make it worse and trigger things like schizophrenia, and people with SA tend to be paranoid. Maybe if you took dopaminergics early on before you had a chance to develop much paranoia...


People with SA are fully aware that their fears are irrational.

This is quite different from a paranoid schizophrenic who lacks awareness that their neighbor isn't really a secret agent planning to kill them, such that they must first kill their neighbor. They know of their neighbor's evil plot as their dog was nice enough to warn them.

Paranoid a widely misused term.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

p4oloz said:


> what about modafinil and SA ? It seems to realease DA in the right place  Did you ever try it ? how do you compare it with adderall ?


I found it pretty weak, most members here too.


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## shale (Jul 24, 2010)

UltraShy said:


> People with SA are fully aware that their fears are irrational.
> 
> This is quite different from a paranoid schizophrenic who lacks awareness that their neighbor isn't really a secret agent planning to kill them, such that they must first kill their neighbor. They know of their neighbor's evil plot as their dog was nice enough to warn them.
> 
> Paranoid a widely misused term.


There are different levels of paranoia. You have to have _some_ paranoia with SA to be thinking that everyone is judging you in the first place. Also, schizophrenia has different levels of paranoia too. I am diagnosed with both social anxiety and schizophrenia but I've never hallucinated except when on 10 hits of lsd, but I am constantly battling paranoia. I however am fully aware that it is irrational too. But it's still there.


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I found it pretty weak, most members here too.


Which dosage did you tried ?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

p4oloz said:


> Which dosage did you tried ?


I dont remember, but i overdosed after a couple of days to try and see whater high doses work better, caused bad anxiety.

It did have some anxiolytic activity, but weak.


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## Rbk (Aug 5, 2010)

rocknroll714 said:


> Alprazolam seems to be quite effective in increasing dopamine in the striatum and inducing hyperactivity while lorazepam has no such effects. All of this correlates perfectly with my own personal experience; alprazolam being heavily rewarding, clonazepam being slightly mood-elevating, and lorazepam being nasty ****. Everyone's different though and some people even swear by lorazepam of all things.


For me, lorazepam was very euphoric, like vodka. And it is the strongest anxiolytic for me, too. Kind of narcotic med. I really like to be on lorazepam, I feel like other "me", the real "me" 

But it is very addictiv...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

The only dopaminergics that arent addictive in the same sense as benzo's, opiates, amps etc are MAOI's and dopamine agonists, from those 2 id say dopamine agonists are the best option, guide4dummies is having pretty brutal withdrawal symptons from it tough, but that doesnt occur to everyone.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> The only dopaminergics that arent addictive in the same sense as benzo's, opiates, amps etc are MAOI's and dopamine agonists, from those 2 id say dopamine agonists are the best option, guide4dummies is having pretty brutal withdrawal symptons from it tough, but that doesnt occur to everyone.


Guide4dummies said his withdrawal had an extremely long duration and that there might be permanent issues with anhedonia/apathy. Doesn't sound like the best deal. MAOI's is where it's at.


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> The only dopaminergics that arent addictive in the same sense as benzo's, opiates, amps etc are MAOI's and dopamine agonists, from those 2 id say dopamine agonists are the best option, guide4dummies is having pretty brutal withdrawal symptons from it tough, but that doesnt occur to everyone.


Hi crazymed, do you have some study about benzo and dopamine increase? I never heard it before :roll


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> The only dopaminergics that arent addictive in the same sense as benzo's, opiates, amps etc are MAOI's and dopamine agonists, from those 2 id say dopamine agonists are the best option, guide4dummies is having pretty brutal withdrawal symptons from it tough, but that doesnt occur to everyone.


Also amisulpride is a good D2 agoinist, under 50 mg, used to treat depression in europe.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Edwin said:


> Guide4dummies said his withdrawal had an extremely long duration and that there might be permanent issues with anhedonia/apathy. Doesn't sound like the best deal. MAOI's is where it's at.


I dont think you should stay away from those meds because of the withdrawal symptons of one individual, DAWS is a real problem but not everyone reports such drastic symptons. (offcourse those cases should be mentioned to everyone willing to try those meds).

I pretty much agree with that ex dubio said on mind and muscle:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=42981&view=findpost&p=619124


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

p4oloz said:


> Hi crazymed, do you have some study about benzo and dopamine increase? I never heard it before :roll


The effects of benzo's on dopamine have been discussed a few posts before you.
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/1538095-post17.html
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/1538085-post16.html


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

p4oloz said:


> Also amisulpride is a good D2 agoinist, under 50 mg, used to treat depression in europe.


Yes, but tolerance develops extremely fast according to all anecdotal reports ive read. It also dramatically increases prolacting giving you boobs.


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Yes, but tolerance develops extremely fast according to all anecdotal reports ive read. It also dramatically increases prolacting giving you boobs.


True ! But for short term use, is very good..


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> The effects of benzo's on dopamine have been discussed a few posts before you.
> http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/1538095-post17.html
> http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/1538085-post16.html


Thanks, i'll read it :yes


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## mikoy (Aug 12, 2010)

Dopamine agonists are good, but I feel the best in the day when I don't take it. They have to somehow block the dopamine and later the release of its bigger. Longer taking higher doses may result in anhedonia, weakness and in my case hypoglycemia.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

mikoy said:


> Dopamine agonists are good, but I feel the best in the day when I don't take it. They have to somehow block the dopamine and later the release of its bigger. Longer taking higher doses may result in anhedonia, weakness and in my case hypoglycemia.


Thats because you are either still in the adaptation phase or are taking doses that are selective for the autoreceptors (wich downregulates them and gives you a boost when your off the med). I would suggest to up the dose and fully adapt so you can achieve remission on a daily basis.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

I'd like you guys to take another look at this article (pretty well-known around here):

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/157/3/457

and then take a look at this article:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/maney/nns/2010/00000013/00000004/art00002

Shouldn't there be more therapeutic value in this supplement than we give it credit for? I've been having pretty decent results with 500mg 280mg daily, but maybe I should try up to 2 - 3 grams (too bad it's so expensive).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

The first study has been challenged by another study showing no difference in D2 binding in subjects with social anxiety disorder.

Nonetheless increased D2 density can be of benefit and omega 3 is a good supplement all around, in those that are deficient i would expect some benefits, however in those that allread have an adequate intake of omega 3 i would say that extra supplementation wont show any extra benefits.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

I'll try taking 1 gram daily for 2 weeks and see what that does. If there's not much difference, I at least can take comfort in knowing 280 mg/ daily will be sufficient to keep my levels up.


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## mikoy (Aug 12, 2010)

I take 2 mg requip modutab a day. I felt the best on smaller doses - 0,5 mg, don't know why.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

mikoy said:


> I take 2 mg requip modutab a day. I felt the best on smaller doses - 0,5 mg, don't know why.


You can go up ALOT higher, the adaptation would be terrible but the end result would be worth it, the reason higher doses are worse is because they initially dramatically reduce dopamine.


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> You can go up ALOT higher, the adaptation would be terrible but the end result would be worth it, the reason higher doses are worse is because they initially dramatically reduce dopamine.


Why high dose reduce dopamine?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

p4oloz said:


> Why high dose reduce dopamine?


Because of autoreceptors activation, over time they downregulate returning dopamine levels to baseline while at the same the ropinirole activates the postsynaptoc receptors.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

A quote from another website, quoting some papers:



> Low omega-3 fatty acid diets diminish dopamine levels, a monoaminegeric neurotransmitter. In 2000, a study by Zimmer et al. observed rats fed an n-3 fatty acid poor diet had a 90% reduction of dopamine released in their brains and mild damage to the dopaminergic synaptic vesicles (2). The neurotransmitter was unable to trigger communication signals to the next neuron. Similarly in a 1998 article in the _Journal of Nutrition_ by Chalon, S. et al., rats fed a fish oil diet had a great grain capacity than those fed a control diet. The rats consuming higher quantities of fish oil had 40% greater dopamine levels in the frontal lobes (2). Scarce dopamine levels in human brain frontal lobes induce neurocognitive functions such as memory, problem solving, and attention are negatively affected (1). Furthermore, if low dopamine levels in humans affect attention, then perhaps this deficiency may be a contributing factor to ADHD. A more examined problem is the susceptibility to depression with low n-3 fatty acid diets and low dopamine amounts. Many animal studies have concluded low dopamine levels, as a result of depleted n-3 fatty acid diets, lead to behavioral problems.
> 
> Omega-3 fatty acids not only affect not only dopamine, but also serotonin. Neural membrane tissues contain DHA which facilitate signaling pathways (5). The DHA concentration in neuron membranes has a direct correlation to serotonin levels according to a 1995 study by Hibbeln and Salem. DHA reduction negatively affects either serotonergic receptors or serotonin-reuptake systems (5). Later Olsson et al. concluded a study suggesting a diet low in n-3 fatty acids reduces the amount of serotonin (2). Chronic dietary deficiencies in n-3 fatty acids have also found a 40-75% decrease in dopamine levels (2, DeLion et al). Furthermore, if there are scare amounts of serotonin, then signal relaying is hindered. Only high amounts of serotonin, resulting from a DHA rich diet, tend to facilitate neurotransmission.


That is some crazy reduction in dopamine levels, and a major increase due to high dose omega-3 fatty acid diet.

Increasing dopamine without increasing nor-epinephrine is essential btw, this should really be addressed more. This is also the reason I like DHA and Selenium so much.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Interesting, nice find, pretty impressive... not supplementing omega3 atm but will definatly get some.


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## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

Edwin said:


> *The rats consuming higher quantities of fish oil had 40% greater dopamine levels in the frontal lobes*


Holy ****! Nice find.

And this article was from 1998? Why hasn't this been more publicized??

I just started doubling my dose of fish oil (I think getting up to 1200mg), because I've been going through so many changes recently, and I wanted my neurons to have plenty of food. But maybe I'll do more. I'd be interested to know what the equivalent dosage was for the rats.


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## Ehsan (Mar 21, 2009)

has anyone tried omega3?
does it affect your mood significantly?
which is the best form of omega3?


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

Ehsan said:


> has anyone tried omega3?
> does it affect your mood significantly?
> which is the best form of omega3?


There are no big differences, I consider it just a supplement to take in the morning :yes


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## Ehsan (Mar 21, 2009)

i started omega3 today.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

I have to mention again that EPA did basically nothing for me (expect making me spacey), while DHA was pretty amazing (even giving euphoria when starting taking it). I wasn't sure and not willing to see what high dose DHA would do (partly due to costs), but I'm definitely giving it a go now.

I've taken about 420mg (basically pure DHA) yesterday in the afternoon, and I slept very light and lied awake for a good amount of time. It seems more insomnia-inducing than Rhodiola Rosea. Been having a strange dream, which I can recall completely, ironically involving social interaction with people resembling old house-mates. This morning I feel a little emotional. Acute effects of DHA always seem to linger for a good day.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

> Dopamine levels were 40% greater in the frontal cortex of rats fed FPO than from those fed the control diet. In this cerebral region there was also a reduction in monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B) activity and greater binding to dopamine D2 receptors.


Source: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/12/2512


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

Taking 1 gram almost, almost, makes me feel like 2 - 3 gram for a while would nearly cure me of my disorders. It's kinda strange, but it just seems to click and make me feel more normal (very calm and focused). I'm not saying it would, but there's definitely something odd about this.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

You are taking pure DHA? What supplement do you use? Its not just normal salmon oil i gues.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

The product is called VeganDHA from Minami Nutrition. I'll be switching to another product of Minami if the improvements warrant that (to save cost). Contents of 2 capsules is: DHA (omega-3) 280 mg, DPA (omega-6) 100 mg. I take 4. I thought there was more in these things. Means I'm actually just getting 560 mg daily atm. Now I'm really curious what ~1mg daily will do.

I have to warn you, most brands of Omega-3 are probably a joke compared to this stuff, especially if they're mostly EPA. The 560 mg knocked me out this afternoon, a common pattern whenever I increase dopamine levels (this side-effect lingers for a few days). Gonna take 8 of the little capsules tomorrow, it will probably put me in bed for the entire day. I'm really pleased with the longevity of the effects. Effects which are very pronounced btw.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Omega 6 is a bit of a downer tough, AFAIK we allready have to much 6 in the diet and the ratio btw 3 and 6 is important.

Still that supplements looks good, i'l order some.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm thinking about going for their MorDHA product next time, which is advertised to be for pregnant women. Sounds like the perfect thing for me. 

It contains ~500mg DHA per capsule, for 60 capsules total. Will cost me around 20 euros a month at taking 1 gram daily. Sounds like a good deal. Taking 1 gram of the VeganDHA product costs about four times that much.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

Although this thread was originally about dopamine, we know that GABA is a very important neurotransmitter as well. Check out this article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12573522



> ... Freezing behavior was dramatically suppressed by the supplementation of DHA, even 48 h after the conditioning treatment. Furthermore, the effect of DHA on the conditioned fear stress response is maintained over a long-term period. ...


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

Does the source matter? Krill, cod, flax, etc? I just have "Finest Natural" brand .. Says it has anchovy, mackerel, and sardine.

On another note, I feel more social after cups of coffee ... does that have to do with dopamine?


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

I feel more sociable after a cup of coffee as well. DHA is something different though, almost seems to transform me. I'm now in the process of finding out what the maximum therapeutic benefit can be.

It's very important that you get a brand with low contamination (heavy metals etc), high in DHA, instead of EPA. Although taking EPA probably doesn't hurt, it's not really that effective, based on my own experience.


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

Edwin said:


> I feel more sociable after a cup of coffee as well. DHA is something different though, almost seems to transform me. I'm now in the process of finding out what the maximum therapeutic benefit can be.
> 
> It's very important that you get a brand with low contamination (heavy metals etc), high in DHA, instead of EPA. Although taking EPA probably doesn't hurt, it's not really that effective, based on my own experience.


Hmm. Mine says 2400mg fish oil, 720mg fatty acids. It says it has DHA and EPA, obviously, but it doesn't give a break down of how much of each. I usually take one dose (2 pills) in the morning and 2 pills at night.


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

Are you getting this DHA online? Or could it be something to get at GNC?
Also, do you know if it's safe while on an MAOI?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

wjc75225 said:


> Does the source matter? Krill, cod, flax, etc? I just have "Finest Natural" brand .. Says it has anchovy, mackerel, and sardine.
> 
> On another note, I feel more social after cups of coffee ... does that have to do with dopamine?


Cafeine also helps my anxiety, it also causes some increase in dopamine altough thats pretty limited but on the other hand can also cause jitters and increased anxiety wich makes it a inapropiate treatment for some people. Personally i love cafeine:yes.

Yes DHA should be safe on a MAOI.


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

Ya, it's kind of weird. Caffeine doesn't really make me jittery ... almost has a calming effect.


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

rocknroll714 said:


> Anchovies?? Ewww.
> 
> As crayzyMed said, caffeine is indeed a weak dopamine releaser in the striatum, and thus can have mild anxiolytic, prosocial, and mood-lifting effects. It is even self-administered by animals (an indication of addictive potential). However, its anxiolytic effects reverse in high doses and it can be quite unnerving and unpleasant. Caffeine overdose is not a fun experience.


Ya, I don't go to the extreme. I don't think I've ever had a caffeine overdose. I think I'm addicted to it, though. Hey man, anchovies are good! IDK what people have against them. Actually, they are much better when fresh than canned. When I went to Italy, I was eating fresh anchovies, sardines, and herrings all of the time. They don't have as much of a pungent taste when they are fresh.


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

And I don't know how much coffee it would take to overdose .. I've had quite a bit without it raising my anxiety. I felt like I was on speed or something and could concur all. However, I usually have two mugs worth in the morning (I would guess around 22oz).


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

Edwin said:


> I feel more sociable after a cup of coffee as well. DHA is something different though, almost seems to transform me. I'm now in the process of finding out what the maximum therapeutic benefit can be.
> 
> It's very important that you get a brand with low contamination (heavy metals etc), high in DHA, instead of EPA. Although taking EPA probably doesn't hurt, it's not really that effective, based on my own experience.


But how that DHA affects you ? Do you feel more energetic? Calm ? Focused ? How :boogie


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## Ehsan (Mar 21, 2009)

i hate caffeine.
it makes me anxious.


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

p4oloz said:


> But how that DHA affects you ? Do you feel more energetic? Calm ? Focused ? How :boogie


Up above he said it made him feel calm and focused. It sounds almost like what a benzo does for me.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

I took 1120 mg DHA today. Anxiety is even lesser than yesterday, but I've noticed it aggravates my depression significantly. This was somewhat noticeable yesterday as well, at half that dose. This might be a temporary effect, but I'm not sure. Increase to 1120 mg doesn't seem beneficial enough, will try 560 mg again tomorrow.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

Edwin said:


> I took 1120 mg DHA today. Anxiety is even lesser than yesterday, but I've noticed it aggravates my depression significantly. This was somewhat noticeable yesterday as well, at half that dose. This might be a temporary effect, but I'm not sure. Increase to 1120 mg doesn't seem beneficial enough, will try 560 mg again tomorrow.


Thanks for the report, i'm very interested in it, too.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

A small list of symptoms I noticed in the afternoon, this evening (after the morning 1120mg dose):


A small duration of near-euphoria
Increased sociability, joking, laughing
A little trouble with word-flow, thinking, cognitive slowing
Sexual hypersensitivity
It's more difficult to worry about what I'm saying, I feel a little more "in the now"
The increased depression I got this morning seems to be way less this afternoon. While sleeping it off I felt weird prickly sensations behind my forehead. When DHA is doing its "work", you can notice a very distinct and unique feeling ~ no meds I've tried felt like this, it's almost like your head is being turned upside down. Makes kinda sense because of the widespread and varied effects DHA has on brain composition and function. I'll write a small update again tomorrow.


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

Edwin said:


> A small list of symptoms I noticed in the afternoon, this evening (after the morning 1120mg dose):
> 
> 
> A small duration of near-euphoria
> ...


Not sure if you mentioned this .. but what are you using? Are you getting this online or what?


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

wjc75225 said:


> Not sure if you mentioned this .. but what are you using? Are you getting this online or what?


Minami Nutrition VeganDHA. I'm getting this online, not available in any shop.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

The 520 mg I took today made me feel very depressed again. After looking up some user experiences on the net, I'm pretty sure high DHA levels will be extremely detrimental to mood. 

I just took another fish oil pill (same manufacturer), containing 580mg EPA and another 80 mg DHA. I felt better almost instantly. I'll be taking 50/50 levels of DHA/EPA the following days, to see whether the benefits of DHA (lowered anxiety) will stay when combined with EPA.

I've been trialling high dose EPA in the past for depression, but it didn't do much. My instincts tell me balanced EPA/DHA levels are pretty much required for all-round good benefits.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

I take a sizable amount of EPA/DHA to very little effect (I take it for several reasons though). Even simple magnesium was far more noticeable and effective. 

Omega-3's are important for a lot of things, and most people probably SHOULD supplement with them in order to balance out the disproportionate amounts of Omega-6 fatty acids in a typical Western diet, but there have been so many studies showing insignificant results with depression and other mental health issues that I wouldn't count on any real effects outside possibly a tiny boost that is so small it's probably not even REALLY noticeable on an individual level, but rather as a statistical (likely insignificant) blip.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people are lying or wrong about their success with it - a fair amount of people actually do get good and immediate results. To such a degree, in fact, that it even appears to work as well and as often as placebo, if you catch my drift. Although that's not necessarily a bad thing... improvement is improvement whether it's placebo or an entirely biochemical effect. Most people don't realize just how strong a presence that placebo appears to have in treating mental illness, and curiously, scientists have even noted that it has apparently become increasingly pronounced within the last few decades, though there's not much of a consensus as to why this might be.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

MJ pretty much makes most ppl on this site feel terrible, or atleast social anxiety intensified, just came across alot of study's showing the cannabinoid system supresses the dopaminergic system.



> Neuropsychopharmacology. 2008 Jun;33(7):1667-79. Epub 2007 Oct 24.
> Expression and function of CB1 receptor in the rat striatum: localization and effects on D1 and D2 dopamine receptor-mediated motor behaviors.
> Martín AB, Fernandez-Espejo E, Ferrer B, Gorriti MA, Bilbao A, Navarro M, Rodriguez de Fonseca F, Moratalla R.
> 
> ...


Another piece to the puzzle, we still need many pieces tough.


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## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

That's funny, because I find it works great for ADHD and SA. I've heard other people saying it works for ADHD as well.


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## feelalone (May 1, 2010)

Edwin said:


> I have to mention again that EPA did basically nothing for me (expect making me spacey), while DHA was pretty amazing (even giving euphoria when starting taking it). I wasn't sure and not willing to see what high dose DHA would do (partly due to costs), but I'm definitely giving it a go now.
> 
> I've taken about 420mg (basically pure DHA) yesterday in the afternoon, and I slept very light and lied awake for a good amount of time. It seems more insomnia-inducing than Rhodiola Rosea. Been having a strange dream, which I can recall completely, ironically involving social interaction with people resembling old house-mates. This morning I feel a little emotional. Acute effects of DHA always seem to linger for a good day.


Is this Dha immediately effective?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Duke of Prunes said:


> That's funny, because I find it works great for ADHD and SA. I've heard other people saying it works for ADHD as well.


It does alot more things too, but this explains for the poeple that feel far worse.


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## TheoBobTing (Jul 8, 2010)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21783205


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