# Do you think that religious people are seen as stupid?



## Droidsteel (Mar 22, 2012)

I always worry about my friends knowing Im Christian because no one takes religion seriously where I live.. its like everyone has a suppressed hatred for it, like they aren't smart enough to disregard God or something. 

Im sure a lot of the people I know would be shocked if they knew.

Anyone else feel this way?


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Droidsteel said:


> I always worry about my friends knowing Im Christian because no one takes religion seriously where I live.. its like everyone has a suppressed hatred for it, like they aren't smart enough to disregard *God* or something.
> 
> Im sure a lot of the people I know would be shocked if they knew.
> 
> Anyone else feel this way?


Sometimes. It's not all that often in real life.
He's big G, do He needs da capitalization, yo! :lol


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## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

I wish i lived where you live . Where I grew up its the exact opposite. You shouldn't worry though, theres nothing wrong with having faith in something. Its something that i actually wish i had. I doubt that most people you know "hate" religions/christians like you think they do though. They have probably had someone try to push some religion on them when they didn't want it, and now might think that most/all religious people will do the same thing. As long as you don't try to force your personal beliefs onto them, then there shouldn't be a reason for a non-theistic person to have a problem with you believing what you do. Granted, there are some extremists on both sides, who will be a holes no matter what. But this isn't the norm, at least from my experience


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## Droidsteel (Mar 22, 2012)

millenniumman75 said:


> Sometimes. It's not all that often in real life.
> He's big G, do He needs da capitalization, yo! :lol


Whoops! XD



Nogy said:


> I wish i lived where you live . Where I grew up its the exact opposite. You shouldn't worry though, theres nothing wrong with having faith in something. Its something that i actually wish i had. I doubt that most people you know "hate" religions/christians like you think they do though. They have probably had *someone try to push some religion on them when they didn't want it*, and now might think that most/all religious people will do the same thing. As long as you don't try to force your personal beliefs onto them, then there shouldn't be a reason for a non-theistic person to have a problem with you believing what you do. Granted, there are some extremists on both sides, who will be a holes no matter what. But this isn't the norm, at least from my experience


Those sort of people annoy me even MORE! No wonder we are treated like that when pushy fundamentalists are everywhere!!!

I feel so sorry for anyone who has a family like that...


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## werdiscv (Nov 1, 2011)

As an atheist, I will think less of a person if I find out they believe in fairytales like the Creation story. Don't care if they're religious though, I've met lots of Christians who don't take the Bible too seriously, and I respect them for that.


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## Droidsteel (Mar 22, 2012)

ManOnTheMOON said:


> Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.
> 
> Who's opinion really matters? Thats what I told myself.
> 
> "You are the light of the world."... " let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:14-16


This is defiantly something I need to work on :yes


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## erasercrumbs (Dec 17, 2009)

You gotta question the wisdom of any friend that dismisses you for not having a fashionable belief system.


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## broseph (Jan 18, 2010)

I think the people who call other people stupid based on their beliefs are insecure. Pushy atheist evangelists are just as annoying as pushy Christian evangelists. If you're confident in your beliefs you're not going to be worried about what society thinks of you.


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## Albert11 (Jun 11, 2011)

*Here is a little more applicable scripture---*

*Mark: 13, 12-13*
12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

*John 15:18---*
18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Deleted


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## dirsad (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks for the scripture albert and man on the moon. Very relevant to the discussion.


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## dirsad (Mar 7, 2012)

Here is another one.



Mark 14:66-72 said:


> 66 While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by. 67 When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him. "You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus," she said.
> 68 But he denied it. "I don't know or understand what you're talking about," he said, and went out into the entryway.[a]
> 69 When the servant girl saw him there, she said again to those standing around, "This fellow is one of them." 70 Again he denied it.
> After a little while, those standing near said to Peter, "Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean."
> ...


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## red wrinkle (Dec 3, 2011)

Let's put this way, I believe in god, but more of the gnostic views, every body has doubts, if you don't your lying to your self, I understand the herd mantality, that's what I feel religion is and so is atheism, it makes you feel superior than the next guy, jesus I feel was trying to save us from those feelings not causing them, he was a marter and was trying to save the people from corruption, he knew if extreme measures wernt taken then thousands would die, we have to live this life with compasion for others and there feelings that's the message I get from jesus


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## Lateralus (Oct 28, 2007)

A lot of atheists I know do think most religious people are less intelligent, especially the ones that believe humans lived with Jurassic dinosaurs 10,000 years ago, evolution is sham, and carbon dating is fake, etc. I would tend to agree except that I have two family members who believe these things and amazingly they are smart and successful scientists. One worked for NASA and the other was an Air Force pilot and weapons technologist. It's baffling to me that they could believe those things, but they are definitely smart people.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Lateralus said:


> A lot of atheists I know do think most religious people are less intelligent, especially the ones that believe humans lived with Jurassic dinosaurs 10,000 years ago, evolution is sham, and carbon dating is fake, etc. I would tend to agree except that I have two family members who believe these things and amazingly they are smart and successful scientists. One worked for NASA and the other was an Air Force pilot and weapons technologist. It's baffling to me that they could believe those things, but they are definitely smart people.


They also could have experienced something that may have proven that there is something more out there.

"Intelligent" people as people are putting it can be tested with false doctrine.


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## Lateralus (Oct 28, 2007)

millenniumman75 said:


> They also could have experienced something that may have proven that there is something more out there.
> 
> "Intelligent" people as people are putting it can be tested with false doctrine.


I don't think either of them could possibly have experienced anything even close to proof that carbon dating is fake or that humans and dinosaurs were not in fact separated by approx. 65 million years, rather than coexisting 10,000 years ago. It makes me lol, but on the other hand I respect their work.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Lateralus said:


> I don't think either of them could possibly have experienced anything even close to proof that carbon dating is fake or that humans and dinosaurs were not in fact separated by approx. 65 million years, rather than coexisting 10,000 years ago. It makes me lol, but on the other hand I respect their work.


But a newly burnt tree is also carbon dating. :stu
We'd never know.


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## Lateralus (Oct 28, 2007)

millenniumman75 said:


> But a newly burnt tree is also carbon dating. :stu
> We'd never know.


Yes and carbon dating would show that the carbon from the burnt tree was newly created. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. It's beside my original point anyway though; that although certain beliefs cause some religious people to be perceived as less intelligent, there are still many of them doing work and research that is very highly intelligent, so the perception is not accurate.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

I don't remember reading anything in the Bible about dinosaurs, unless they were groups with the other animals - they weren't mentioned by name. :con A good portion of the Bible has been proven to have occurred, too.

Plus....I guess I can add myself to that accomplished list. My first job offer ever was with NASA in Cleveland :lol. I turned down the job due to SA (and it was a contract position forcing me to move). 

Christians do come from all walks of life. Most don't mean to be pushy, but after experiencing something that even science can't explain, it can't be helped. Sometimes, it's nice to know that someone is looking out for them in life, too. It kind of gives an accountability factor.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Albert11 said:


> *Here is a little more applicable scripture---*
> 
> *Mark: 13, 12-13*
> 12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
> ...


It has become painfully apparent just how ominous the second passage has come true.


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## Lateralus (Oct 28, 2007)

millenniumman75 said:


> I don't remember reading anything in the Bible about dinosaurs, unless they were groups with the other animals - they weren't mentioned by name. :con A good portion of the Bible has been proven to have occurred, too.
> 
> Plus....I guess I can add myself to that accomplished list. My first job offer ever was with NASA in Cleveland :lol. I turned down the job due to SA (and it was a contract position forcing me to move).
> 
> Christians do come from all walks of life. Most don't mean to be pushy, but after experiencing something that even science can't explain, it can't be helped. Sometimes, it's nice to know that someone is looking out for them in life, too. It kind of gives an accountability factor.


I've never read the bible, but it's a creationist idea. I don't know where it comes from but they have the museum in Cincinnati you've probably heard of. Here's a picture of one of the exhibits which shows a human and a Jurassic dinosaur coexisting.










PS. Congrats on being offered a job at NASA. I know you're smart so I'm not surprised.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

The Creationist museum? Oh yeah, I remember hearing about it, but I never went. I still am not sure about the dinosaur part - it was never mentioned. :stu

The weird thing about that picture is that the man is sitting there with a wild "dinosaur" that close? I'd be hiding.


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## Albert11 (Jun 11, 2011)

*Dinosaurs In The Bible:*








If dinosaurs and people lived at the same time, shouldn't the Bible talk about dinosaurs?
Yes -- and it does. Dinosaurs are one of the most frequently mentioned animals in the Bible. The only thing is, the word dinosaur is not used.
The word "dinosaur" was not invented until 1841. It could not be used by early translators of the Bible. For example, the King James Version translation was completed in 1611, over 200 years before the word "dinosaur" was created. 
*Is there another word for dinosaur that is used in the Bible?*
Yes! Here are a few verses:
"...and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." - Malachi 1:3 (KJV)
"...they snuffed up the wind like dragons." - Jereniah 14:6 (KJV)
"...and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." - Isaiah 27:1 (KJV)
The word is dragon. It's interesting to note that people around the world have similar stories about "dragons"... and the descriptions of "dragons" are similar in all cultures... and those descriptions basically match what we think dinosaurs look like.
*When the Bible talks about dragons, it is talking about what we now call dinosaurs.*
Here's a detailed description from Job 40:15-19
"Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. He is chief of the ways of God." 
*What is behemoth? *
This is the largest (chief) land animal God made. Some Bible translators have said behemoth may be an elephant or hippopotomus. But both of those have small tails, not a tail that moves like a cedar tree. 
The problem is that we limit ourselves to animals that are alive today, and none of those fit this description. What best fits the description is a Brachiosaurus--the largest of the dinosaurs. A dinosaur with a giant tail that was like a cedar, and huge legs that must have had the strength of brass and iron in order to support his enormous body. Brachiosaurus was 75 feet in length, 41 feet in height, and weighed 89 tons--as much as 12 African bull elphants. This was a true behemoth!
*Yes, the Bible talks about dinosaurs. They are mentioned in the Bible nearly more times than any other animal.*


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## Noll (Mar 29, 2011)

I'm atheist and I dislike religion, but just cause someone is religious that doesn't mean I hate that person or think he or she is unintelligent.


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## Quinn the Eskimo (Jan 22, 2012)

just depends on who is doing the viewing,

a lot of atheists will vehemently declare that god is for the weak minded who delusionally wish to be saved,

they will rant and rave about how sick and ignorant / brainwashing it is to believe in something higher than our selves, not seeing the whole time that they are hiding a vengeful heart and a closed mind

then you have fundamentalists who will rant and rave about non believers, sin, and there is so much hypocrisy

and yeah, I do think a lot of religious people are seen as stupid. spiritual people as well. theyre seen as weird or delusional. so are atheists, they are seen as dumb by a lot of religious people. but its all part of the fiction. if you notice that someone or something is trying to convince you to see another group of people as "deficient" in some way *STAY AWAY FROM THAT. *You can choose for yourself to not buy into that and then you can see that everyone and everything is alike.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

> I always worry about my friends knowing Im Christian because no one takes religion seriously where I live.. its like everyone has a suppressed hatred for it, like they aren't smart enough to disregard God or something.
> 
> Im sure a lot of the people I know would be shocked if they knew.
> 
> Anyone else feel this way?


I think what's important is that you surround yourself with people who accept you as you are. They don't have to agree with what you believe, but they can at least respect your individuality. If they think less of you, or try to push their beliefs on you, then they're not worth having as friends.


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## barchaetone (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm both religious and a PhD scientist. I don't hide my religiosity from others, most of the time. I work with people who think religion is for the weak-minded. My existence is a bit of a paradox for those folks. I enjoy that a bit! But seriously, I feel that I have way more in my life being religious and wouldn't give it up (or even feel bad) because someone else incorrectly thinks I'm dumb. 

Patron saint for those bothered by the statement "religious people are dumb": Sir Isaac Newton.

I can also list folks like C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, William of Ockham (of Occam's Razor), etc., etc., but after Newton, they all pale in comparison.


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## Dark Alchemist (Jul 10, 2011)

Albert11 said:


> *Dinosaurs In The Bible:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*facepalm*


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## FadeToOne (Jan 27, 2011)

Big time. Especially from the media and entertainment industry. Which is at large what dictates society.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

There is no such thing as wide spread intelligence IMO. Some people are intelligent in certain areas while not in others and vice versa.


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## Loveless (Apr 6, 2012)

I have been on both sides of the spectrum (believer and nonbeliever) I gre up Christian, then became an atheist at 15 and then slowly became a Christian again within the last 8 months or so. Honestly both sides misundertsand each other. Believers and nonbelievers both have their issues. Believers tend to disregard Science and believe in things like the Earth being less then 10,000 Years old. Denying Evolution to me is relatively dumb. Likewise, atheists just always think Science is how you explalin evrything. You're not going to find God through Science. You will find him through personal experience. I believe that there is a God and I believe Science is correct as into Evolution, Age of the Earth, Big Bang and all that. In general, Christians think athiests are stupid and vice evrsa. It's quite sad really. Both could learn from one another


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## erasercrumbs (Dec 17, 2009)

Honestly, I couldn't care less what others think of my religious beliefs. As long as detractors aren't sending me to a forced labor camp (which is thankfully quite rare in this part of the world), they have as much right to mock my beliefs as I do to mock theirs.


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## tjames (Jan 31, 2012)

I feel like a lot of atheist have a suppressed disdain for religion. Many tell me they don't mind religious people who don't push there views on others. Since I am very open minded about religion I some times come off as not being religious. Thats when I hear my atheist friend making jokes about how stupid religious people are. I wish they would be more honest about how they don't get religion and they think its stupid that we believe it and move on. I accept that people often dismiss what they don't get. I just don't like that they pretend that they are so open minded and that they really don't dismiss religion in religious people.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

tjames said:


> I feel like a lot of atheist have a suppressed disdain for religion. Many tell me they don't mind religious people who don't push there views on others. Since I am very open minded about religion I some times come off as not being religious. Thats when I hear my atheist friend making jokes about how stupid religious people are. I wish they would be more honest about how they don't get religion and they think its stupid that we believe it and move on. I accept that people often dismiss what they don't get. I just don't like that they pretend that they are so open minded and that they really don't dismiss religion in religious people.


I totally agree.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

ManOnTheMOON said:


> Who's opinion really matters? Thats what I told myself.


Regardless if they 'matter' or not, other people's opinions are a serious concern for someone with anxiety.


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## hoddesdon (Jul 28, 2011)

I think some people reject religion because they do not want to make the effort to do things the right way. They think that by doing the wrong thing they will be better off than they otherwise would be. That is false: they may think they profit in certain situations, but that is at the expense of someone else, and when others do the same, it is at their expense, at least indirectly e.g. supermarket prices are higher due to shoplifting. Since they are only one person, and others are more than one, overall they lose.


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## John316C (May 1, 2011)

religious ppl are majorly stupid. take an educated guess on the majority of religious ppl in the world who have no education, thats the majority of the world. to them stupid never enters their mind, only to "educated" people. it doesnt matter to them. on average religious ppl are majorly biased as well. im talking about a generality on the entire planet Earth, obviously, many people in more "educated" countries are more open minded but (still a minority) in the majority of the world, ppl just take religion as granted its that simple. id call that a big problem. now im all for freedom. but the fact is you cant elevate societies without challenging ALL their beleifs (and then let them choose) but then i might be infringing on their religion, so then i guess what really matter is if i get my way/they get theirs or we come to an agreement where we are both completly free and independant of being affected by the other party, which in this world - never gona happen unless you make everything "free" (like food etc)


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## 345 (Apr 6, 2012)

I've read the Bible through many times went to a number of churchs as a kid.I still struggle with many aspects of my faith but my grandmother was a christian who truely lived it out.I watched her pray, read the bible and give of herself everyday of her life.She had a hard life but I never known a kinder more honest person in my life so whatever struggles I have with my faith I do respect those who live out theirs.


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## LuxAeterna (Aug 13, 2010)

Nah. There's no misunderstanding. I'm intimately familiar and acquainted with theism and the theology proposed by Western theology.

In answer to the OP's question, one can be "smart" and yet ignorant concerning a particular topic or field of study. My father is pretty intelligent, but he's ignorant concerning matters of proper exegesis and study of doctrine/theology, ancient history, ANE religious and comparative religion/mythology. He's a hard core fundamentalist -- literalist, inerrantist, YEC, Textus Receptus devotee. He, and many others, blindly follow and accept whatever they're indoctrinated with. Whatever is parroted. Swallowed whole without any sort of critical, objective examination. _That_ is ignorance. That is choosing to turn a blind eye to real, honest analysis in order to keep one's presuppositions intact. Keep them from being challenged, leading to serious questions and doubt.

The various surveys performed within the recent years demonstrate that theists truly know very little about the faith they "practice." Their knowledge and understanding is superficial at best. Non-Christians, including skeptics, are much more knowledgeable often because they themselves _were_ not only deeply religious, but they actually studied the basis of their presuppositions.

In any case, concerning the blind acceptance of a metaphysical truth claim, one with so many flaws and internal conflict, yes, I find their critical thinking skills lacking. They could be brilliant in other areas. A mathematician or chemical engineer, but it doesn't say squat about _other_ areas where the same methodology and critical thinking _should_ be applied. Smart or educated people are no different than "regular" people. Many still cling to the religion of their birth/culture because it's simply familiar. A comfort mechanism, if you will.


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## tjames (Jan 31, 2012)

LuxAeterna said:


> Nah. There's no misunderstanding. I'm intimately familiar and acquainted with theism and the theology proposed by Western theology.
> 
> In answer to the OP's question, one can be "smart" and yet ignorant concerning a particular topic or field of study. My father is pretty intelligent, but he's ignorant concerning matters of proper exegesis and study of doctrine/theology, ancient history, ANE religious and comparative religion/mythology. He's a hard core fundamentalist -- literalist, inerrantist, YEC, Textus Receptus devotee. He, and many others, blindly follow and accept whatever they're indoctrinated with. Whatever is parroted. Swallowed whole without any sort of critical, objective examination. _That_ is ignorance. That is choosing to turn a blind eye to real, honest analysis in order to keep one's presuppositions intact. Keep them from being challenged, leading to serious questions and doubt.
> 
> ...


Thanks for embodying the exact type of person we are talking about in this thread.


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## Famous (Sep 6, 2011)

I think there is a cultural element, and a media element.

I think people in the west are so cossetted by the trappings of empire and exploitation of the third world that they take thier luxuries for granted, 
But this doesnt bring them joy fullfillment or hapiness, 
Quite the opposite,

They no longer have to walk days for water, hunt for days for food, but they are discontented, God cant save them from themselves, and they crave someting to fill thier void emptiness, 
But the modern capitalist materialistic wage slave socio-economic-military-industrial-complex pours scorn and derision on the mere thought of spirituality in whatever form,
I mean you cant sell that which is not a commodity, so it becomes a legitimit target for those loyal to the machine,

Most sheep will follow, even though they dont even percieve themselves to be lost


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm sorry to say this, but I might as well be honest. I *do* tend to assume religious people are stupid unless they give me reason to think otherwise. I don't begrudge anyone their spirituality or faith, but I can't help but feel that following the writings of an old book (and/or what you're told to believe) isn't usually a great sign of intelligence.

There are many religious people who couldn't be smarter, but unfortunately for them, the vocal minority tar them all with the same dumb brush in my mind. It's hard for me not to have these prejudices when most religious people I meet or read about are either genuinely stupid people who just happen to be raised Christian and wear it like it's all that they are or certain Archbishops and Popes who conceal child abuse and preach hatred of gay people.

It didn't help that I had a 90 minute car ride with my care co-ordinator once where she spent the whole time singing along to songs with lyrics like "God is great (repeat x8)". Or, for that matter, the fact that I was raised Christian from a young age (sent to sunday school, church school, secondary school that had mandatory hymn-singing); I never really got over the distaste for the people who pushed their own beliefs on me from an age when I couldn't make my own decisions in the hope that it would stick.


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

*that should read "repeat x 8"


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## LuxAeterna (Aug 13, 2010)

tjames said:


> Thanks for embodying the exact type of person we are talking about in this thread.


And your previous post embodies exactly what I was referring to. I guess we're equal.


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## LuxAeterna (Aug 13, 2010)

tjames said:


> I feel like a lot of atheist have a suppressed disdain for religion.


Suppressed? Ha. It's not suppressed. While some nontheists are not completely open about their skepticism, most don't suppress it. It's also not about religion. You're not using "religion" here to refer to all religious traditions. You use it as if it were synonymous with Western religion. It isn't about "religion" or spiritual beliefs. The vast majority of skeptics couldn't care less if one believes in Zeus, Hera, Apsu, Sol Invictus, Brahman, Ahura Mazda, El/Yahweh, El/Yahweh, Yeshua and Holy Spirit, Neptune, Ra, et al. What _does_ matter is the nature and M.O. of said tradition. Teachings that promote or encourage ignorance, fear, hate, bigotry, prejudice, etc., are not respected or tolerated. They shouldn't be. I'm very highly critical of religious fundamentalism -- literalism, inerrantism, obscurantism, Absolutism. I couldn't care less if that makes me intolerant. I'm intolerant of intolerance. I have disdain for certain _brands_ of belief/theology, not "religion" as that is much too broad.



> Many tell me they don't mind religious people who don't push there views on others.


I, along with many skeptics, don't mind healthy dialogue and discourse. If someone is intent on sharing their "good news" then it's fair game to challenge that "good news." It doesn't ruffle my feathers when laypeople or theists _attempt_ to preach or berate me with their beliefs. Why? Because I can easily counter them. As long as it's understood that when one attempts to posit a belief or claim that it is open to counter arguments. Don't mistake an honest critique or challenge for being closed-minded, bitter, stubborn, confused or disillusioned. That is often how it is taken whenever a theist is met with a challenge to their giving of "good news."



> Thats when I hear my atheist friend making jokes about how stupid religious people are.


Qualifying statements are important. It's never wise to use sweeping generalizations. Not all religious people fall within the paradigm most skeptics refer to (e.g., fundamentalists, literalists, inerrantists, bigots, and those generally ignorant of anything outside their brand of belief.) I never get on board with asserting ALL religious people are stupid. It's simply not true. There, however, religious people that lack knowledge in many key areas pertaining to the basis of their presuppositions.



> I wish they would be more honest about how they don't get religion


Straw man. Not "getting it" is not why skeptics (nontheists) are skeptical. This just goes to show you know very little about this matter. The majority of skeptics _were_ religious at one time. Many of them very dedicated to their faith/walk. So it is not a matter of simply not understanding religious thought or practice. True skepticism has nothing to do with lack of understanding. It has everything to do with objective, critical analysis of the claims/concepts being posited.



> and they think its stupid that we believe it and move on. *I accept that people often dismiss what they don't get.*


See above. Relying on fallacies actually hurts whatever point it is you're trying to make.



> I just don't like that they pretend that they are so open minded and that they really don't dismiss religion in religious people.


No one is open minded about everything. I'm not open minded about bigotry, prejudice, blatant disrespect, blind ignorance, intolerance and so forth. There is no such thing as being truly "open minded" because we all have things we simply reject or find flaws with. For me, I absolutely, unequivocally reject and denounce certain brands of theology.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

barchaetone said:


> I'm both religious and a PhD scientist. I don't hide my religiosity from others, most of the time. I work with people who think religion is for the weak-minded. My existence is a bit of a paradox for those folks. I enjoy that a bit! But seriously, I feel that I have way more in my life being religious and wouldn't give it up (or even feel bad) because someone else incorrectly thinks I'm dumb.
> 
> Patron saint for those bothered by the statement "religious people are dumb": Sir Isaac Newton.
> 
> I can also list folks like C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, William of Ockham (of Occam's Razor), etc., etc., but after Newton, they all pale in comparison.


Even as a scientist/engineer myself, I have seen too much evidence that God exists. He has put me back together where science only half-does the job.


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

barchaetone said:


> I'm both religious and a PhD scientist. I don't hide my religiosity from others, most of the time. I work with people who think religion is for the weak-minded. My existence is a bit of a paradox for those folks. I enjoy that a bit! But seriously, I feel that I have way more in my life being religious and wouldn't give it up (or even feel bad) because someone else incorrectly thinks I'm dumb.
> 
> Patron saint for those bothered by the statement "religious people are dumb": Sir Isaac Newton.
> 
> I can also list folks like C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, William of Ockham (of Occam's Razor), etc., etc., but after Newton, they all pale in comparison.


Thankfully though, Newton had an open-mind and made his faith work for him rather than holding him back. Obviously there's a big difference between the scientist who believes in a higher power and the scientist who denies that the Earth orbits the Sun because his church told him the Bible says so.

And leave CS Lewis out of it, his faith totally ruined the end of the Narnia series!


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## barchaetone (Oct 15, 2011)

TristanS said:


> Thankfully though, Newton had an open-mind and made his faith work for him rather than holding him back. Obviously there's a big difference between the scientist who believes in a higher power and the scientist who denies that the Earth orbits the Sun because his church told him the Bible says so.
> 
> And leave CS Lewis out of it, his faith totally ruined the end of the Narnia series!


I not only believe in a higher power (in a Deist sense, perhaps?), but I'm Roman Catholic and I teach Sunday School. I emphasize to the students that their faith does not require them to believe creationist nonsense. I point out that a great many scientists of all stripes have also been Catholic priests or religious. They are usually amazed by this, because they absorb the false dichotomy of science v. religion from the larger culture.


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

It's the catholic church that's to blame for a lot of that though. It took 200 years for them to stop calling anyone who advocated (correctly, obviously) heliocentrism a heretic. Really, my main problem with religion is the organised aspect of it; I just don't believe that some people are closer to God and know what he wants more than others, no matter how old they are and no matter how full of gold their vaults are. The horrors that the catholic church has committed and supported (Crusades) through the last thousand years can never be forgiven, and I honestly think the world would be better off without it.


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## barchaetone (Oct 15, 2011)

TristanS said:


> It's the catholic church that's to blame for a lot of that though. It took 200 years for them to stop calling anyone who advocated (correctly, obviously) heliocentrism a heretic. Really, my main problem with religion is the organised aspect of it; I just don't believe that some people are closer to God and know what he wants more than others, no matter how old they are and no matter how full of gold their vaults are. The horrors that the catholic church has committed and supported (Crusades) through the last thousand years can never be forgiven, and I honestly think the world would be better off without it.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I, however, have a much different perspective of the Church "from the inside." That is, I'm active in ministries of my local parish, and have gotten to know a lot of very good, kind, loving, caring, and above all, generous people, including priests to whom I have become very close. There is a lot of joy and sense of belonging that comes with being in a Church community, and it is unique and distinctly different from the other non-religious organizations I'm a part of. I'm acutely aware of the (sometimes horrific) problems with the institutional Church, and I don't excuse the institutional Church for those problems. Nor do I excuse the problems that arise within parish communities. The critical fact is that I do not experience the Catholic Church through a top-down hierarchical lens but as a community. I am a member of the Church because of God and despite of the institutional Church.

Oftentimes people who criticize the Church have never encountered the positive things that I mention. Some of them might even be Catholic, and go to Mass every week, but never really get to any significant level of involvement in the Church. I know that when I was an atheist I only saw the power of the institutional Church and the many evil things churchmen have done through the ages. I had never experienced anything more and so my heart was hardened and I refused to consider any other perspective. And one more thing - I have met some of the most intelligent and wise people I have ever known in my Church...and I work in a scientific field with other scholars (I earned a PhD from Harvard). On the other hand, a lot of my very smart colleagues are sarcastic, snarky, negative, and bitter about a lot of things. The contrast between the two groups of people can be jarring - I moved from one to the other during a single day recently, and I was left feeling quite ashamed of the behavior and attitude of many folks in my profession.


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## tjames (Jan 31, 2012)

LuxAeterna said:


> Suppressed? Ha. It's not suppressed. While some nontheists are not completely open about their skepticism, most don't suppress it. It's also not about religion. You're not using "religion" here to refer to all religious traditions. You use it as if it were synonymous with Western religion. It isn't about "religion" or spiritual beliefs. The vast majority of skeptics couldn't care less if one believes in Zeus, Hera, Apsu, Sol Invictus, Brahman, Ahura Mazda, El/Yahweh, El/Yahweh, Yeshua and Holy Spirit, Neptune, Ra, et al. What _does_ matter is the nature and M.O. of said tradition. Teachings that promote or encourage ignorance, fear, hate, bigotry, prejudice, etc., are not respected or tolerated. They shouldn't be. I'm very highly critical of religious fundamentalism -- literalism, inerrantism, obscurantism, Absolutism. I couldn't care less if that makes me intolerant. I'm intolerant of intolerance. I have disdain for certain _brands_ of belief/theology, not "religion" as that is much too broad.
> 
> I, along with many skeptics, don't mind healthy dialogue and discourse. If someone is intent on sharing their "good news" then it's fair game to challenge that "good news." It doesn't ruffle my feathers when laypeople or theists _attempt_ to preach or berate me with their beliefs. Why? Because I can easily counter them. As long as it's understood that when one attempts to posit a belief or claim that it is open to counter arguments. Don't mistake an honest critique or challenge for being closed-minded, bitter, stubborn, confused or disillusioned. That is often how it is taken whenever a theist is met with a challenge to their giving of "good news."
> 
> ...


I am happy I inspired so much passion in you. I love passion. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I myself hate bigotry. While I love the passion and emotion of a baptist church I can't stand the bigotry. I actually stopped going to my families church because while I love the preacher, never heard him preach a bigoted sermon, I disliked the congregation. The incident the preceded my leaving the church happened while I was formerly rejoining the church. Why i simply cannot walk in and enjoy a good lecture about better myself and how i treat others without the trappings of formality is beyond me. One new woman who seemed to be a recurring drug addict asked about Jews. The people in our class dropped their teaching and spent 30 minutes telling her over and over again that hose that don't accept good as their personal savoir would go to hell.  This included nice Jews in their opinion. I saw their was no way to convince them that they were probably wrong so I kept my mouth shut and never returned. Since then I joined a Unity church which is a very liberal christian denomination. Many Christians don't consider us Christan but oh well. The influence of Buddhism is very obvious n the churches teachings, philosophy, and rituals. What I love about it is just how non judgmental and spiritually humble we strive to be.

I do take issue with you assuming that i am ignorant about skeptics. I have been friends with many skeptics and they are often my favorite type of atheist since they tend to be more tolerant of me. Probably because I come off as very open minded and curious when I speak about religion and less pushy. I don't consider all atheist skeptics. Most atheist I have spoken with have told me they just don't get how I can believe in God. Most atheist I have known are not skeptics. They simply don't believe, don't know why they don't believe, don't know why I believe and don't care. These are often the same people who make fun of all religious people in front of me because they forget that I am religious.

I also think some atheist are defensive about religion. I once had a friend get mad at me because he thought I was trying to convert him to Buddhism. I was only asking him to come to a Buddhist center with me because I love the amount of introspection Buddhist do. I find it hard to meditate by myself but rewarding to meditate around others. I am not a Buddhist so I was confused about how I could convert someone to a religion I do not belong to. I never ask people to come to church with me because I never want to impose my Christianity on others.


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## tjames (Jan 31, 2012)

TristanS said:


> It's the catholic church that's to blame for a lot of that though. It took 200 years for them to stop calling anyone who advocated (correctly, obviously) heliocentrism a heretic. Really, my main problem with religion is the organised aspect of it; I just don't believe that some people are closer to God and know what he wants more than others, no matter how old they are and no matter how full of gold their vaults are. The horrors that the catholic church has committed and supported (Crusades) through the last thousand years can never be forgiven, and I honestly think the world would be better off without it.


Not all religions believe that anyone is closer to or further away from God. Why let your disdain for the catholic church be the basis for how you feel about all religions. Atrocities like the crusades would have happened without the catholic church existing. Religion is often used as a tool but there are many tools that can and are used to replace it.


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## Droidsteel (Mar 22, 2012)

tjames said:


> I feel like a lot of atheist have a suppressed disdain for religion. Many tell me they don't mind religious people who don't push there views on others. Since I am very open minded about religion I some times come off as not being religious. Thats when I hear my atheist friend making jokes about how stupid religious people are. I wish they would be more honest about how they don't get religion and they think its stupid that we believe it and move on. I accept that people often dismiss what they don't get. I just don't like that they pretend that they are so open minded and that they really don't dismiss religion in religious people.


I think a lot of people who lable themselves athiest have more than a suppressed distain for religion, but more of a deep hatred for religious people.

Perticually christians. The taliban are never critisized by most athiests but someone so much as says 'jesus' near them and there is hell to pay!

Well, revelation says christians will be persocuted, and I guess that hatred will have to come from somewhere


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

tjames said:


> Not all religions believe that anyone is closer to or further away from God. Why let your disdain for the catholic church be the basis for how you feel about all religions. Atrocities like the crusades would have happened without the catholic church existing. Religion is often used as a tool but there are many tools that can and are used to replace it.


Yeah, but my feeling is that generally religion has been used as a tool for evil more than good. It just serves to divide people even more. I have no problem with most religious people, but as long as there's the potential for people to kill each other over god, I'd be happier without it.

And I was specifically referring to the catholic church when I was saying about people being closer to god; the idea that one man (the pope) has an intimate knowledge of god and therefore can tell millions of people how to live based on his own personal beliefs is a terrifying one. Of course there are more reasonable religions; if I had it in me to believe in anything, I'd be a quaker - their thoughts on equality and just being nice in general and lack of any hatred or intolerance is what all religion should aspire to be like, unfortunately they're the weirdos for this.


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

Droidsteel said:


> I think a lot of people who lable themselves athiest have more than a suppressed distain for religion, but more of a deep hatred for religious people.
> 
> Perticually christians. The taliban are never critisized by most athiests but someone so much as says 'jesus' near them and there is hell to pay!
> 
> Well, revelation says christians will be persocuted, and I guess that hatred will have to come from somewhere


I think it goes without saying that the taliban are bad. It's like saying that most atheists criticise christians more than they do the khmer rouge.

And the bible says a lot of things. It routinely condones the stoning of people and says that women are second-class human beings to men. It's a very old book; these were accepted views at the time, they aren't now.


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## barchaetone (Oct 15, 2011)

TristanS said:


> the idea that one man (the pope) has an intimate knowledge of god and therefore can tell millions of people how to live based on his own personal beliefs is a terrifying one.


This idea might be a misconception of the doctrine of papal infallibility, and as you frame it, it would be terrifying. However, Popes do not tell Catholics how to live based on "personal beliefs." In fact, the only statements that are considered infallible are those that are formally proclaimed as dogmatic. This does not mean that the pope cannot err or sin, even when speaking in his official capacity as pope.


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## Droidsteel (Mar 22, 2012)

TristanS said:


> I think it goes without saying that the taliban are bad. It's like saying that most atheists criticise christians more than they do the khmer rouge.
> 
> And the bible says a lot of things. It routinely condones the stoning of people and says that women are second-class human beings to men. It's a very old book; these were accepted views at the time, they aren't now.


Wtf? Is this ANOTHER person takeing rules from the old testament and pretending the ten commandments dont exsist!

Tho. Shalt. Not. Kill.

Please csn people start aknowlaging that!?


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

Droidsteel said:


> Wtf? Is this ANOTHER person takeing rules from the old testament and pretending the ten commandments dont exsist!
> 
> Tho. Shalt. Not. Kill.
> 
> Please csn people start aknowlaging that!?


This is the problem. The Bible was written in chunks in different periods by different people. It leaves itself open to abuse by misinterpretation (deliberate or otherwise). Even among normal Christians I've spoken to, opinion seems to be split between "just take a few good lessons from it", "ignore the whole old testament and revelations" and "everything in it is absolutely the word of god and should be followed strictly".

It's not like "thou shalt not kill" is something that's been exactly followed by all christians in the past and today.


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## tjames (Jan 31, 2012)

TristanS said:


> This is the problem. The Bible was written in chunks in different periods by different people. It leaves itself open to abuse by misinterpretation (deliberate or otherwise). Even among normal Christians I've spoken to, opinion seems to be split between "just take a few good lessons from it", "ignore the whole old testament and revelations" and "everything in it is absolutely the word of god and should be followed strictly".
> 
> It's not like "thou shalt not kill" is something that's been exactly followed by all christians in the past and today.


Or could it be that people use different parts of the bible to justify there actions and you yet you still blame a book and not the people who use the as a justification.


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

tjames said:


> Or could it be that people use different parts of the bible to justify there actions and you yet you still blame a book and not the people who use the as a justification.


Quite the opposite. I don't blame the book at all - it's just a book. But there have been billions of people who've killed, abused and mistreated with the belief that it was sanctioned by God via the bible. I don't trust people under any circumstance, and religion just makes it worse.


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## jvanb00c (Apr 13, 2012)

I don't find religious people to be stupid really. If beleiving in a creator who listens to all your wishes helps you find happiness in life then more power to you. And hell, here in america it's viewed as kind of wierd to not believe in religion, especially christianity...which kind of sucks for me because I don't beleive in christianity or any religion for that matter. I wouldn't say i'm an athiest, I'm open to the idea of god but I find organized religion to be somewhat pretentious. 

But like I said, I think religion is mostly just an avenue for people to cope with life and there is nothing wrong with that. It's annoying when people start saying that their religion is the only one that could possibly ever be right and everybody else is wrong and going to hell but that isn't the nature of all religious people by any means.


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## Ironpain (Aug 8, 2010)

I know people in my life who are Agnostic or Atheist and sometimes those for whom religion is a very uncomfortable subject and I am scared to tell them I'm Christian for fear of offending them or scaring them into thinking that I'll preach to them, today people think of radicals and religious zealots etc; 

I do worry that people will think that I'm dumb because I chose to believe in God, I am aware of evolution, I am aware of scientific hypothesis and theory, I am aware of Darwin etc etc; to me God is outside of that, to me my faith has nothing at all to do with some age old debate, I could really care less about the whole thing.

My relationship with Jesus is personal, it is about comforting my soul, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil. Jesus protects me he loves me, yet I'm afraid of judgement, even though I know that I should be more afraid of God's judgement, I still fear other people's finger pointing, I mean no harm to others by my belief's, I don't judge anyone for what they believe.


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## Albert11 (Jun 11, 2011)

Ya---I'm not ashamed in the least of my faith in God----and I do believe that the Word of God was inspired by Him and written by his disciples. It makes perfect sense to me that a God who created us for His own purpose would certainly be able to communicate with us. Man has the ability to abuse pretty much everything----even the word of God. 

It can be easily taken out of context, twisted and subverted for personal agendas. That doesn't mean the word isn't true or has changed in relevance. Those who have received the Holy Spirit into their lives have the advantage of being able to discern the spiritual character of the Bible. "We will know them by their fruit." 

The fruit of the Spirit is in Galatians 5:22-23

(NIV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. *Against such things there is no law.* 

Anything outside of this kind of witness is not worthy of representing Gods Kingdom. 

Those in authority in the 'Church' as a whole, have a greater accountability to God. They are also more vulnerable to 'spiritual attack'. "To whom much is given---much is expected"

I'm not saying those who _haven't_ matured in the faith and in their spiritual walk will not go to heaven; but ---- those who act like a fool and say they love God ---- well,-- they lie. 

The chastisement received by the world will seem like a cake walk compaired to standing before God when we go home. He probably won't have to say anything----the *shame* we will feel for the account of our lives when standing before the (*Holy of Holies*) will feel like white hot fire in our souls. And yet-------- He forgives. 

Not because of who we are---but because of who He is and what He's done.


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## Shianne (Apr 3, 2012)

I would not say religious people are seen as stupid, because then it's saying that people who aren't religious are (could be) seen as stupid...I guess try to respect the believers and non-believers...


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## AB0T (Apr 19, 2012)

*If I were you I wouldn't be concerned about your friends' opinions about your faith. It's true, ignorant people today have a strong disrespect for us and even think we're stupid. Regardless, we're supposed to set an example and unapologetically express our faith. We shouldn't be ashamed that we believe. And if people want to become our enemies because of it we should love them from afar but not be so close that they can effect our walk. Don't forget the scriptures say great are our rewards in heaven if we are persecuted by our peers. If people judge you, be proud you're not in the same clump as them.*​


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## 0589471 (Apr 21, 2012)

I think it depends on where you come from, the people you're surrounded by, etc. Some people are scarred by the actions of fanatical people who force things and abuse God's name, and claim to be holy figures but are really anything but. Traumas, bad experiences, etc. 

Where I live it's the same, people look down on you if you believe in God or dare call yourself Christian. I think that it's the same as people who claim to follow and believe in a peaceful, loving God but in return are hateful, angry, dangerous people...there are those that claim to be tolerant to all faiths, but are always attacking Christianity.

There are a lot of stupid people, they come from all faiths and forms, so why carry the person's stupidity and some out-of-context biblical saying as the definition of all Christians. It doesn't make sense...you shouldn't feel ashamed to believe in anything, because it's your personal choice.

Personally I respect other's beliefs and their choice, because we are born with the freedom to choose. I just don't appreciate being bashed once uttering the words "Christian", assuming I'm a bad person because of it.


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## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

What is Christianity?

It is the belief that a two-thousand-year-old Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat an apple off a magical tree in wonderland.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

They are viewed as stupid to me, I dont know about anyone else. And by stupid I don't necessarily mean overall, but maybe there's something wrong with their logic skills.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Yeah, sort of. Either they cling to unfounded beliefs for whatever reason or they just never thought about it much and accept the religion their parents brought them up in.


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## Campeador (Jul 5, 2011)

Unfortunately, yes. But it cuts both ways. People who call themselves atheists are often painted with stereotypes as well. This is one of the biggest problems in truly being who I _am _inside. Because I don't want people to extrapolate things based off of one part of myself. The problem is, I stereotype people myself, so I feel like other people are stereotyping me. It holds me back from believing what I want to believe -- or at least, from expressing those beliefs. For example, my Dad is an atheist, and my grandparents are far-right Christians. Because I do believe in God, I'm afraid of speaking my views of God in front of my Dad. And because I am more liberal, I'm afraid of speaking my political views in front of my grandparents. It sucks. People are going to judge you, but you need to find a way to be yourself regardless of what people think of you, regardless of how close they are to you.


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