# I am cured. I feel amazing.



## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

I feel like I am totally cured. I woke up this morning feeling so god damn amazing!  

Adding Z to my Wellbutrin is the smartest thing I've ever done. 

I feel like I am ALIVE AGAIN and I have my personality back!!!!!!!! 

I understand when people say "i feel like me again" because I feel like me again. 

It's been almost a year since i've felt like this. I fell into a major depressive episode around February of this year. I resisted anti depressants for months, until I got really drunk and drove and almost got into a fatal car accident. 

I was tired of "numbing" the pain with alcohol. 

I tried Nortriptyline. It made my mouth too dry and felt zombied out. 

I tried 5HTP which was good, but too mild. 

Then I tried Wellbutrin which was a tough med to adjust to, but I stuck with it, and after 5-6 weeks, the sides pretty much dissapeared. 

I felt decent on Wellbutrin but something was missing. I didn't have negative thoughts, but i wasn't myself still. I wasn't joking around, and i wasn't the guy I used to be. 

I tried adding Celexa, then Lexapro. I only lasted a week on both these meds. I felt too lethargic and spaced out. 

I was just gonna stick with Wellbutrin, but then I read a thread on here about a guy who is on Z and WB. It clicked in my head that this could be a good combo. 

Well, it's only been three days since adding Z and I feel amazing

I honestly feel like myself again. My personality is back! I woke up and was joking around and singing in my room. I feel like the old me, possibly even better! 

Please don't jinx me by saying "it won't last" because i believe it will


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## mikoy (Aug 12, 2010)

Eee, What is Z? Zoloft ?


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## leon21 (Nov 8, 2009)

mikoy said:


> Eee, What is Z? Zoloft ?


Yes...Zoloft.

@Eric:

It won`t last...haha:b
I felt the same....but after a couple of weeks...it didn`t work anymore.
I hope it works for you....if not, you can try Lyrica.
It really works for me...and I only take like 2x150mg/day.


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## mikoy (Aug 12, 2010)

I once took this drug for 6 months, but side effects not gone - sweating/tachycardia/restlessness/agression, without significant improvement in my depression. I'm on fluoxetine now for about week (previously for 2 weeks on fluvoxamine) and this side effects still present...I think in my case receptors won't downregulate - I'm going back to wellbutrin, and mirtazapine (to block this suck 5-ht2 receptors).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Dont anticholinergics calm you down on prozac?


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## mikoy (Aug 12, 2010)

Yes, but I don't want to take prozac becouse I know it's antidepressant effects it's by nicotinic antagonism, and wellbutrin is so much potent in this - I don't feel full strenght of nicotinic block becouse I'm only at 10 mg of fluoxetine. Don't want to go up at dosage becouse of sweating/tachycardia :f I was on sertraline (50mg) for 6 months and it not passed. I know it's 5-ht2 receptor, becouse mirtazapine block this sweating. But it's so damn H1 strong, and I can't get up in the morning before 10 am :f I'm going to wellbutrin (good responce in the past) and looking for "pure" 5-ht2a antagonist for decreasing sweating and fast heart beat - trazodone or cyproheptadine. Trazodone is weak SSRI and cypro is strong H1 antagonist. I'm not sure is trazodone help with sweating. Cyproheptadine is helpful with sweating for others.

I do not have a positive response to the SSRI, fluoxetine is the only drug that manifested some antidepressant effect, but side effects still present. Sweating/tachycardia/problems with sleeping/decrease apetite/restlessness - like in serotonin syndrome but less pronounced...Maybe I need to take it for fu...ing 10 years to downregulate this receptors? I can't function in that way.


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## leon21 (Nov 8, 2009)

mikoy said:


> Yes, but I don't want to take prozac becouse I know it's antidepressant effects it's by nicotinic antagonism, and wellbutrin is so much potent in this - I don't feel full strenght of nicotinic block becouse I'm only at 10 mg of fluoxetine. Don't want to go up at dosage becouse of sweating/tachycardia :f I was on sertraline (50mg) for 6 months and it not passed. I know it's 5-ht2 receptor, becouse mirtazapine block this sweating. But it's so damn H1 strong, and I can't get up in the morning before 10 am :f I'm going to wellbutrin (good responce in the past) and looking for "pure" 5-ht2a antagonist for decreasing sweating and fast heart beat - trazodone or cyproheptadine. Trazodone is weak SSRI and cypro is strong H1 antagonist. I'm not sure is trazodone help with sweating. Cyproheptadine is helpful with sweating for others.
> 
> I do not have a positive response to the SSRI, fluoxetine is the only drug that manifested some antidepressant effect, but side effects still present. Sweating/tachycardia/problems with sleeping/decrease apetite/restlessness - like in serotonin syndrome but less pronounced...Maybe I need to take it for fu...ing 10 years to downregulate this receptors? I can't function in that way.


Have you tried Escitalopram?
It`s considered to having less side-effects.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Are you sure you want 5HT2A antagonism? I actually beleive 5HT2A AGONISM can be highly beneficial for SA as it induces dopamine release (the thing about 5HT2A antagonism increasing dopamine is a myth btw).

Prozac is a antagonist of both 5HT2A and 5HT2C btw.


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## mikoy (Aug 12, 2010)

leon21 I tried escitalopram for one month and it's sure have a less side effects, but without any improvement in my depression. 

Crazymed if SSRI (paroxetine was the worse) induced my hyperhydrosis, tachycardia, restlessness (paroxetine-akathisia), and mirtazapine counteract it (and doxepin/amitryptyline - 5-ht2ant.). I know that I can't function with this sweating (even on my hands, blah), and it's not going any better, even in 6 months on sertaline. The only thing that counteract it it's 5-ht2 antagonism. Not sure it's 5-ht2a or 5-ht2c? Maybe 5-ht2c? But cyproheptadine is helpful with sweating induced by SSRI, and it's 5-ht2a antagonist? Or maybe 5-ht2c antagonist too? Don't know. I know that prozac is 5-ht2 antagonist, maybe it's it antidepressant effect? But it's still SSRI and still making me sweat and restlessness :f

If 5-ht2 agonism is pro dopamine, why SSRI make me restlessness worse, and mirtazapine helps with it? It's not H1 for sure. And when it's release dopamine why there is so many low libido cases (and mirtazapine help with it).


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## Rbk (Aug 5, 2010)

Hydroxyzine is blocking 5HT2A and I really like this effect. It is not helping with SA but it is working very well on GAD and tension.


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## mikoy (Aug 12, 2010)

I have some hydroxizine in house. I will try it tonigh and see if effects are similar to mirtazapine. Hydroxizine is not 5-ht2c antagonist? Maybe my sweating is from 5-ht2c agonism...

I know, I will try agomelatine and find it out  it's so expensive :f Servier always overstate praices for their meds.


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm glad you're feeling better, Eric, but as I mentioned in the other thread, be prepared for a pretty sudden crash. It really does appear that you're in somewhat of a hypomanic state, and those simply don't last. Hopefully you'll still get benefits from the drug after the hypomania or increased mood/energy subside, but typically those extreme and immediate responses to SSRIs don't bode well for long-term efficacy. I do hope for your sake that it does continue to work, though!


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

bmwfan07 said:


> I'm glad you're feeling better, Eric, but as I mentioned in the other thread, be prepared for a pretty sudden crash. It really does appear that you're in somewhat of a hypomanic state, and those simply don't last. Hopefully you'll still get benefits from the drug after the hypomania or increased mood/energy subside, but typically those extreme and immediate responses to SSRIs don't bode well for long-term efficacy. I do hope for your sake that it does continue to work, though!


Thanks 

I did a google search for anyone else on this combo, and I found someone who had a similar experience to me early on...

"It may just be a little mania talking, but I just started taking Zoloft (generic) with my Wellbutrin... and I LOVE it. This is day 9. I saw my councelor on day 4, and he noticed a change as well.

It's sooo important to remember that different drugs work (and work differently) for different people, but I felt more like myself (though as I mentioned, a little, ah, hyper) within a couple days of starting the Zoloft than I have in the last 5 years. The Wellbutrin was doing its job, but not quite well enough. At any rate, it seems this combination might be quite effective for me"

(quoted from another forum)


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

Eric69 said:


> Thanks
> 
> I did a google search for anyone else on this combo, and I found someone who had a similar experience to me early on...
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't think it's all that rare, but notice also that that person was only on day 9 and noticed a change (his counselor did, too) by day 4. That isn't a normal or indicated response to SSRIs; in fact, I don't mean to scare you, but Dr. Phelps in his book _Why Am I Still Depressed?_ suggests such rapid responses to SSRIs are often associated with misdiagnosed bipolar spectrum disorders.

Question: was your depression atypical--i.e. did you tend to overeat, oversleep, experience mood reactivity to positive or negative events, get worse at night, have extremely low energy and motivation, or any combination of the above? Have you ever had hypomanic episodes before?


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

bmwfan07 said:


> Yeah, I don't think it's all that rare, but notice also that that person was only on day 9 and noticed a change (his counselor did, too) by day 4. That isn't a normal or indicated response to SSRIs; in fact, I don't mean to scare you, but Dr. Phelps in his book _Why Am I Still Depressed?_ suggests such rapid responses to SSRIs are often associated with misdiagnosed bipolar spectrum disorders.
> 
> Question: was your depression atypical--i.e. did you tend to overeat, oversleep, experience mood reactivity to positive or negative events, get worse at night, have extremely low energy and motivation, or any combination of the above? Have you ever had hypomanic episodes before?


I've had depressive episodes ON/OFF for the past 3-5 years. I even didn't realize it was depression until this year. I fell into a really awful depressive state where I lost my passion and excitement for everything. I mean literally everything. I started self medicating with alcohol, just to "numb" the depression and not feeling anything.

It took me MONTHS to seek help. By the time I finally did, I almost died.

I'm not really sure what hypomaniac episodes are.... but it's been a while since i've felt this genuwinely good and it feels great to feel excited and enthusiastic again 

I doubt i'm bipolar but i do think i need ongoing neurotransmitter support.


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

Eric69 said:


> I've had depressive episodes ON/OFF for the past 3-5 years. I even didn't realize it was depression until this year. I fell into a really awful depressive state where I lost my passion and excitement for everything. I mean literally everything. I started self medicating with alcohol, just to "numb" the depression and not feeling anything.
> 
> It took me MONTHS to seek help. By the time I finally did, I almost died.
> 
> ...


How old are you, if you don't mind my asking (I only ask because that informs and pertains to much of diagnosis as far as depression goes)?

You didn't tell me what your symptoms were as far as any of the ones I mentioned (how was your sleep? eating? mood reactivity to positive events, especially in light of being "on/off" depressed? change during the day, especially either being worse at night or in the morning?), but it sounds like you did/do have chronic atypical depression. This is my "first episode" of atypical depression, although it really hasn't been a discreet episode like melancholic depression is (more the on/off pattern you've described), so I'm concerned my depression will take a similar course. You mention the need for ongoing neurotransmitter support. I agree in cases of chronic depression, but there's been a lot of research to demonstrate that atypical is far more likely to be that "chronic" or on/off depression that you describe, and it often doesn't respond well to SSRIs (your response is not considered ideal, as good as it might feel right now)... or any meds besides those used for bipolar (another clue). This especially applies if you're < 25 years old.

More relevantly, atypical depression seems pretty much indistinguishable from the main manifestation of bipolar depression, raising the possibility that the two are one in the same and that atypical depressives just haven't had a hypomanic episode, or one they can remember. I'm struggling myself to remember one but quite often depression in bipolar spectrum disorders occurs before any episode of hypomania or mania, so it might be a few years away.

In summation: this stuff sucks!


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## Rbk (Aug 5, 2010)

Mikoy said:


> Hydroxizine is not 5-ht2c antagonist?


English wiki says " It may act on the 5-HT2C receptor as well.". I don't know any other sources.


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## alex999 (Oct 21, 2008)

This happened to me when I started Lexapro. The first week or even first few days I felt an intense wave of euphoria. Major energy, felt unbelievable. It's like the world opened up and I found the meaning of life. I've never taken any hard drugs but that's probably what they make you feel like. I was most likely hypomaniac. I experienced several more waves of hypomania the next month. It also happened whenever I upped my dosage. 

But the "honeymoon period" went away and will more than likely go away for you. Not saying you won't feel OK, you will but just not with the huge euphoria. After the maniac behavior went away, the fatigue, apathy, and sexual side effects started to become noticeable. But maybe since you are on Wellbutrin you may not experience those negative side effects that much. But I do know what you feel like, lol.


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

EVERYONE STOP TELLING ME IT WON'T LAST!!!!! :mum

lol

Actually i need to figure out how to deal with sexual sides. I haven't thought that far ahead... but stuff like horny goat weed or maca powder could work.

Right now i'm just ridin' the wave of goodness 



alex999 said:


> This happened to me when I started Lexapro. The first week or even first few days I felt an intense wave of euphoria. Major energy, felt unbelievable. It's like the world opened up and I found the meaning of life. I've never taken any hard drugs but that's probably what they make you feel like. I was most likely hypomaniac. I experienced several more waves of hypomania the next month. It also happened whenever I upped my dosage.
> 
> But the "honeymoon period" went away and will more than likely go away for you. Not saying you won't feel OK, you will but just not with the huge euphoria. After the maniac behavior went away, the fatigue, apathy, and sexual side effects started to become noticeable. But maybe since you are on Wellbutrin you may not experience those negative side effects that much. But I do know what you feel like, lol.


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

Eric69 said:


> EVERYONE STOP TELLING ME IT WON'T LAST!!!!! :mum
> 
> lol
> 
> ...


I thought Wellbutrin augmentation was supposed to help a bit with sexual side effects because of its dopaminergic effects. You're already doing that. So maybe you won't have an issue. But I don't think it will matter, because I recommend you discuss what you're currently experiencing with your p-doc. If you don't and it isn't recognized as the hypomania that it is, you will likely be disappointed in 3-12 months when it poops out. If you have a decent p-doc who is up on the latest treatment protocols for bipolar spectrum disorders, perhaps adding Lamictal or lithium into the mix would prevent the poop-out and help considerably in the long run.


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm 28 years old.

Yeah i have depressive phases. I didn't recognize them as that until recently. The past 5 years I have depression months where I am pretty down, but I just assumed that was normal. And then some event will snap me out of it, and i feel OK for a few months, and then I get down again. I always thought this was totally normal.

Then this year when I fell into a deep pit of depression, and i lost my enthusiusm for everything in life, I still didn't think I was depressed. I thought it was something else. Like some medical illness. I went to specialists and checked it out, but my body was completely fine.

I resisted anti depressants for so god damn long. It's ironic because if I had accepted them earlier then I wouldn't have gone through this hellish year. But live and learn.

I _*will *_need ongoing support for life. The reason is, the past 5 years the on/off depressive phases haven't stopped. Even when everything in my life is great, i fall into depressive phases. I have had to leave multiple jobs because of it. I didn't realize it at the time, but I left the jobs because I was depressed.

So meds for life. Good times... 

I pray to the neurochemical gods that this combo lasts a very long time.

Just gotta figure out how to combat any sexual dsyfunction and i'm golden.



bmwfan07 said:


> How old are you, if you don't mind my asking (I only ask because that informs and pertains to much of diagnosis as far as depression goes)?
> 
> You didn't tell me what your symptoms were as far as any of the ones I mentioned (how was your sleep? eating? mood reactivity to positive events, especially in light of being "on/off" depressed? change during the day, especially either being worse at night or in the morning?), but it sounds like you did/do have chronic atypical depression. This is my "first episode" of atypical depression, although it really hasn't been a discreet episode like melancholic depression is (more the on/off pattern you've described), so I'm concerned my depression will take a similar course. You mention the need for ongoing neurotransmitter support. I agree in cases of chronic depression, but there's been a lot of research to demonstrate that atypical is far more likely to be that "chronic" or on/off depression that you describe, and it often doesn't respond well to SSRIs (your response is not considered ideal, as good as it might feel right now)... or any meds besides those used for bipolar (another clue). This especially applies if you're < 25 years old.
> 
> ...


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## orbit55 (Apr 23, 2008)

I guess I had a "honeymoon" phase with Celexa. Yesterday I was pretty depressed. Not a bad thing. Just because we are on AD's doesn't mean we will never feel depressed. Why would you want to feel euphoric all the time anyways? Having emotions is what makes us human...


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

Eric69 said:


> I'm 28 years old.
> 
> Yeah i have depressive phases. I didn't recognize them as that until recently. The past 5 years I have depression months where I am pretty down, but I just assumed that was normal. And then some event will snap me out of it, and i feel OK for a few months, and then I get down again. I always thought this was totally normal.
> 
> ...


You still haven't answered my questions pertaining to your actual symptoms. But the fact that you thought it was a medical illness leads me to believe you have atypical depression, since you presumably didn't feel particularly "blue" or melancholic, but just "bad." I experience(d) the same symptomatology, and that's really what atypical depression is about. It isn't really brooding on past failures, rejections, shortcomings, mistakes, offenses, etc. It's more about feeling awfully empty, disconnected (from yourself as well as from the world, hence or manifested in the reverse vegetative symptoms), and anhedonic.

However, atypical depression often presents itself earlier than 23. Did you ever have a time in your teens or earlier 20s when you were depressed, even if only for a week or so?



orbit55 said:


> I guess I had a "honeymoon" phase with Celexa. Yesterday I was pretty depressed. Not a bad thing. Just because we are on AD's doesn't mean we will never feel depressed. Why would you want to feel euphoric all the time anyways? Having emotions is what makes us human...


It is a bad thing if it's coming out of nowhere. Do you believe it's normal to be depressed for the majority of the day for no reason? If it occurs in healthy individuals, it's likely due to some event or because they're feeling physically ill in some way (or maybe even because of the weather). I'd just caution you to watch to make sure the depression doesn't repeatedly come back or worsen. But I'm sure you know that.


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

bmwfan07 said:


> However, atypical depression often presents itself earlier than 23. Did you ever have a time in your teens or earlier 20s when you were depressed, even if only for a week or so?


Actually no. I was never depressed in my teens. But i had some recreational drug use in college from 21-23 (for a few years) and the depressive episodes only started *after* 23.

2 + 2 = 4


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

Eric69 said:


> Actually no. I was never depressed in my teens. But i had some recreational drug use in college from 21-23 (for a few years) and the depressive episodes only started *after* 23.
> 
> 2 + 2 = 4


What kind of recreational drugs are we talking about? I don't believe there's any link between MJ use, for example, and depression. Even drugs like cocaine, while highly dopaminergic and often leading to amphetamine withdrawal, are questionable with regard to permanent neurochemical changes. I do think it's entirely possible that particularly drugs like cocaine could trigger an underlying or latent mental disorder--same with serotonergic psychedelics like LSD.

It's always hard to tell, though.


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## Annoyed (Nov 22, 2009)

*that's a combo that has become pretty popular*

Hey Eric, glad to hear about the good news. I think some people here have a misconception of what hypomania is. People with Bipolar disorder need to be in a mood stabilizer before they can be treated for depression since there is the risk they would have a hypomanic episode, but that entails more than just feeling euphoric. The SSRI + Dopamine/NE inhibitor combo has become more common and popular these days. I'm glad that things are working for you, what dosage are you taking?


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

bmwfan07 said:


> What kind of recreational drugs are we talking about? I don't believe there's any link between MJ use, for example, and depression. Even drugs like cocaine, while highly dopaminergic and often leading to amphetamine withdrawal, are questionable with regard to permanent neurochemical changes. I do think it's entirely possible that particularly drugs like cocaine could trigger an underlying or latent mental disorder--same with serotonergic psychedelics like LSD.
> 
> It's always hard to tell, though.


Mostly MDMA. Not a whole lot for not very long,but it seems like it messed with my brain chemistry :blank


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

Annoyed said:


> Hey Eric, glad to hear about the good news. I think some people here have a misconception of what hypomania is. People with Bipolar disorder need to be in a mood stabilizer before they can be treated for depression since there is the risk they would have a hypomanic episode, but that entails more than just feeling euphoric. The SSRI + Dopamine/NE inhibitor combo has become more common and popular these days. I'm glad that things are working for you, what dosage are you taking?


Thanks man.

I am taking 150mg welbutrin xl and added 25mg zoloft

I've calmed down since this morning/afternoon. Seem to be more level now. Will monitor how i feel over the next few days and weeks.


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## Canadian4Life (Sep 27, 2010)

Your getting relief.. cured no. Noone is ever "cured" it's a battle to the end. Glad you are feeling better though! I take 50mg of zoloft and 100mg of wellbutrin a day


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

Annoyed said:


> Hey Eric, glad to hear about the good news. I think some people here have a misconception of what hypomania is. People with Bipolar disorder need to be in a mood stabilizer before they can be treated for depression since there is the risk they would have a hypomanic episode, but that entails more than just feeling euphoric. The SSRI + Dopamine/NE inhibitor combo has become more common and popular these days. I'm glad that things are working for you, what dosage are you taking?


By definition, hypomania specifies a euphoric/elated or irritable mood, as well as social disinhibition, inflated self-esteem and grandiosity, flight of ideas, distractibility, impulsivity especially with regard to pleasurable activities (shopping, sex, etc.), racing thoughts, psychomotor agitation, etc. You only need a few of those symptoms to qualify for hypomania. And it's quite possible that antidepressant-induced hypomania might be sub-threshold, but I doubt it. Judging by Eric's posts in this and other threads in the past few days, it's quite obvious he was/is in a hypomanic state.



Eric69 said:


> Mostly MDMA. Not a whole lot for not very long,but it seems like it messed with my brain chemistry :blank


Cool stuff, though I've never taken it. Not sure about its psychopharmacology, but I did just briefly read that it does increase one's predisposition toward depression for some reason.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Eric69 said:


> Mostly MDMA. Not a whole lot for not very long,but it seems like it messed with my brain chemistry :blank


That is very unfortunate. I have depression and mdma is the culprit, it will make almost anyone depressed if you take enough regardless of life circumstance. Unfortunately MDMA takes years to recover from, if you do at all. It really is the anti-love drug, as it destroys the part of you brain dealing with empathy and strong positive emotions. It is classified as a human neurotoxin by medicine for a reason, and because it destroys parts of the serotonin neuron itself, antidepressants are rarely effective for it for long. 

MDMA is a methamphetamine, what do people expect???


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

bben said:


> That is very unfortunate. I have depression and mdma is the culprit, it will make almost anyone depressed if you take enough regardless of life circumstance. Unfortunately MDMA takes years to recover from, if you do at all. It really is the anti-love drug, as it destroys the part of you brain dealing with empathy and strong positive emotions.


My father did (chronically, in his younger years) virtually every drug known to man (including copious MDMA) and he's never had depression or any other mental disorder. I'm just not convinced there's a causal relationship between MDMA (or most any other recreational drug) and mental disorders. I think it's more likely that MDMA could trigger an existing, underlying vulnerability. Of course, I could be wrong, but so many people use MDMA every day and most simply don't develop depression or any other mental disorder. I'm sure, however, that conversely, the proportion of diagnosable mental illness in drug abusers is significantly higher than in the general population.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

bmwfan07 said:


> My father did (chronically, in his younger years) virtually every drug known to man (including copious MDMA) and he's never had depression or any other mental disorder. I'm just not convinced there's a causal relationship between MDMA (or most any other recreational drug) and mental disorders. I think it's more likely that MDMA could trigger an existing, underlying vulnerability. Of course, I could be wrong, but so many people use MDMA every day and most simply don't develop depression or any other mental disorder. I'm sure, however, that conversely, the proportion of diagnosable mental illness in drug abusers is significantly higher than in the general population.


You dont know how much MDMA your father did, perhaps his drug was cocaine, or something of that sort. In fact he may have never did it or got bunk ****. Saying he did alot of drugs and is ok doesnt mean jack. I could do heroin for 25 years and be fine for example. Not to mention people can appear ok on the outside but be ****ed inside.

MDMA is progressively more dangerous the more you take it, so you might be fine 10 times and then the 11th develop major depression as your serotonin system gives out finally. Generally you will get zero problems from it, or a huge amount there isnt an inbetween really. So the lucky people that dont get bad problems from it assume it is safe.

Rest assured E-tard isnt a term that was come up with for no reason. If you do mdma everyday for 3 months you will never recover, period. Almost any other drug could be used for years before an equivalent amount of damage would be seen.

I admit mdma can be safe if you take it a few times in low doses, but anything near abuse of it and you will pay dearly.


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## orbit55 (Apr 23, 2008)

bmwfan07 said:


> It is a bad thing if it's coming out of nowhere. Do you believe it's normal to be depressed for the majority of the day for no reason? If it occurs in healthy individuals, it's likely due to some event or because they're feeling physically ill in some way (or maybe even because of the weather). I'd just caution you to watch to make sure the depression doesn't repeatedly come back or worsen. But I'm sure you know that.


Dude, I'm not depressed for no reason. I'm going through a little rough patch which caused my depression and got me to try an SSRI.


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

bben said:


> You dont know how much MDMA your father did, perhaps his drug was cocaine, or something of that sort. In fact he may have never did it or got bunk ****. Saying he did alot of drugs and is ok doesnt mean jack. I could do heroin for 25 years and be fine for example. Not to mention people can appear ok on the outside but be ****ed inside.
> 
> MDMA is progressively more dangerous the more you take it, so you might be fine 10 times and then the 11th develop major depression as your serotonin system gives out finally. Generally you will get zero problems from it, or a huge amount there isnt an inbetween really. So the lucky people that dont get bad problems from it assume it is safe.
> 
> ...


I know what my dad did, as does he. It's probably true that some people react horribly and others never react negatively at all or develop any consequent psychiatric or health issues, but that does beg a bit of a chicken-and-egg question: was there an existing depressive predisposition (e.g. a hypersensitive stress response system) that got triggered by the MDMA abuse, or are the two totally unrelated? Perhaps the answer is purely individual. But the point remains that, as you acknowledged, many "lucky people" never get problems. Especially in Europe, where rave culture is even more pronounced, people do MDMA left and right, chronically, and if there were really profound effects of epidemic proportions, I'm sure that would have been established.



orbit55 said:


> Dude, I'm not depressed for no reason. I'm going through a little rough patch which caused my depression and got me to try an SSRI.


I didn't intend to minimize the basis for your depression. Sorry if it conveyed that way. I just wanted to forewarn you that if it gets any worse, it's a bad sign and it isn't just a matter of "riding it out." I believe almost any depression that gets worse after a few weeks on an SSRI is inherently going to be resistant to that (probably all) SSRI.

Also, if your depression is atypical (increased sleep, increased appetite, mood reactivity to external events, worsening at night, very low energy and motivation, or any combination of the above), be especially vigilant.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

I am sure theres a gene that codes for serotonin production that is probably much more vulnerable to MDMA and its toxicity. It is also probably one of the rarer forms of the gene. This is why we likel dont see the issues more. 

As for the luckier people, they probably do have some issues but it isnt in your face noticable depression like those with the vulnerable gene. Again most people dont know **** about mdma and would attribute their depression to life circumstances like most normal people do. I mean it took me like 2 years to connect the dots to find mdma as the culprit. 

The simple fact is that most people have no idea mdma can cause brain damage and would never attribute depression to it. This in itself highlights the insidious nature of MDMA.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I am personally skeptic of monouse of MDMA causes depression, to give an example of my use:

First 2 weeks i was taking it daily, never noticed a comedown (with my friends) then i slowed down to twice a week for several months (average taking 6-8 pills every evening with 120mg MDMA) then slowed down to once a week as i felt pretty sketchy the next day and using it twice a week simply wasnt possible anymore, bye bye honeymoon phase but it never gave me depression when i kept using it only once a week did this for several months too back in 2007, untill i had a 2,5 month break then took it weekly again for several months in the beginning of 2008 (started using beginning 2007).

Not i only did i use mdma that much all my friends did too and pretty every MDMA user around here takes this much, and ive NEVER seen anyone get long term depression from mdma use, short term yes but that usually was only the case when we or others were abusing amphetamine for several days, mdma made ppl tired here the next week but very rarely depressed. I get fatigue too the next week and brainzaps but that was all.

How did i know my pills contained 120mg MDMA? I was selling them myself and they were tested in holland, and no i'm not proud for mentioning this or something but it helps to support my point and i also think that people who consider me an evil person for selling XTC ignorant, so i dont mind mentioning it.

Now lets get to the evidence:


> Cognition in novice ecstasy users with minimal exposure to other drugs: a prospective cohort study.
> Schilt T, de Win MM, Koeter M, Jager G, Korf DJ, van den Brink W, Schmand B.
> 
> Amsterdam Institute for Addiction Research, The Netherlands. [email protected]
> ...





> J Psychoactive Drugs. 2007 Mar;39(1):31-9.Links
> Is recreational ecstasy (MDMA) use associated with higher levels of depressive symptoms?
> Guillot C.
> 
> ...





> Drug Alcohol Depend. 2007 Mar 16;87(2-3):303-11. Epub 2006 Oct 30.Click here to read Click here to read Links
> Anxiety, depression, and behavioral symptoms of executive dysfunction in ecstasy users: contributions of polydrug use.
> Medina KL, Shear PK.
> 
> ...





> Ecstasy (MDMA) and high prevalence psychiatric symptomatology: somatic anxiety symptoms are associated with polydrug, not ecstasy, use.
> Bedi G, Van Dam NT, Redman J.
> 
> School of Psychology, Psychiatry and Psychological Medicine, Monash University, Melbourne, Australia. [email protected]
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

It seems that poly drug can be capable of inducing long term emotional problems however there isnt evidence that MDMA use on its own causes emotional problems, that said i do beleive its entirely possible however i also beleive the risk is VERY low, this is also largely based on whats ive seen anecdotally, ive never seen anyone get long term problems, only on the internet are many reports of people, wich can make sense because there's an insane ammount of ppl taking MDMA around the world, if only a very tiny bit got anecdotal problems and they report it online, youd have a massive ammount of anecdotal reports, and no i'm not acting ignorant, i'm a poly drug user myself, one of the group that could develop long term emotional problems.

In my case i actually use MDMA to pull me out depressive episodes, why it works? No idea but the mindset i have after it is totally back positive, it like resets my mind, besides that has MDMA changed my life drastically, and i honestly beleive i couldnt get over social anxiety without it, reason being it abolished my SA for the 100% not only while on it but ALSO the day after, during the "comedown" wich allowed me to go out with my friends every week that day after clubbing wich in turn helped me get social skills and build a a confidence.

The net is flooded with reports of ppl reporting their life has changed positively because of MDMA, HOWEVER it also appears that is a dilusion of mentally addicted people as an example someone here that get depression himself from MDMA and now claims it destroyed hes life (rocknroll) actually claimed the exact same thing, that mdma made he's life a ton better, its definatly not a miracle med but have quite a few friends that also were shy and changed dramatically because of MDMA, i think a certain subgroup of social anxious can benefit from immensively from MDMA, however another subgroup gets screwed up. I think the risk is low but abolutely think its possible and take people that claim to have damaged serieusly.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> It seems that poly drug can be capable of inducing long term emotional problems however there isnt evidence that MDMA use on its own causes emotional problems, that said i do beleive its entirely possible however i also beleive the risk is VERY low, this is also largely based on whats ive seen anecdotally, ive never seen anyone get long term problems, only on the internet are many reports of people, wich can make sense because there's an insane ammount of ppl taking MDMA around the world, if only a very tiny bit got anecdotal problems and they report it online, youd have a massive ammount of anecdotal reports, and no i'm not acting ignorant, i'm a poly drug user myself, one of the group that could develop long term emotional problems.
> 
> In my case i actually use MDMA to pull me out depressive episodes, why it works? No idea but the mindset i have after it is totally back positive, it like resets my mind, besides that has MDMA changed my life drastically, and i honestly beleive i couldnt get over social anxiety without it, reason being it abolished my SA for the 100% not only while on it but ALSO the day after, during the "comedown" wich allowed me to go out with my friends every week that day after clubbing wich in turn helped me get social skills and build a a confidence.
> 
> The net is flooded with reports of ppl reporting their life has changed positively because of MDMA, HOWEVER it also appears that is a dilusion of mentally addicted people as an example someone here that get depression himself from MDMA and now claims it destroyed hes life (rocknroll) actually claimed the exact same thing, that mdma made he's life a ton better, its definatly not a miracle med but have quite a few friends that also were shy and changed dramatically because of MDMA, i think a certain subgroup of social anxious can benefit from immensively from MDMA, however another subgroup gets screwed up. I think the risk is low but abolutely think its possible and take people that claim to have damaged serieusly.


The people that tend to get the bad depression from mdma use are generally highly sensitive people in general and seem to be susceptible to it. They do generally have non-mainstream mental health to begin with.

As for MDMA helping social phobics there is a perfectly logical explanation for that. Social Phobia is characterized by low dopamine and d2 receptors and higher serotonin levels (in the areas you dont want it). Serotonin causes anxiety.

Taking MDMA lowers serotonin drastically and this disinhibits dopamine in parts all over the brain that normally would have serotonin blocking its release. This is good for social phobics as they have low dopamine function to begin with and of course higher dopamine means higher confidence.

However if you are already OCD or highly analytical you likely already have dopamine as the more dominant transmitter and if you disinhibit it more through mdma you can get psychosis, depression, and all the other mental disorders. That is if you hold the short gene that encodes for SERT.

Its easy to add dopamine back into the picture as the dopamine system is really robust, however the serotonin system is very fragile. If you **** it up your in sad shape.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Well i can say i was a pretty sensitive undividual in the past, and i did have severe mental problems (ADHD, OCD and social anxiety, the last 2 being absolutely bad).

My response to MDMA (and amphetamine too actually) was atypical compared to other socially anxious people, ive never heared anyone saying they stayed free of social anxiety during the MDMA/Amphetamine _crash_ even if the crash made me feel depressed, i would feel depressed but still free of SA. This is in contrast to my lack of any SA response to other euphoric drugs such as GHB, opiates and alcohol, even tough they made me high, not care and euphoric my SA was still there, you are correct about the dopamine connection, however for most dopamine induced in the reward pathways by a drug like GHB seems to be sufficient to get into remission while on the drug.

Amphetamine in recreational doses also vanishes my OCD btw and i personally dont beleive in the dopamine OCD connection wich is only based on the notion that some dopamine receptors when activated cause _OCD like _ behavor and the (questionable) effiacy of antipsychotics, amphetamine in high doses makes me act OCD like however this has no connection to me real ocd at all, so i dont really consider those rodent models very relevant.

As for MDMA reducing serotonine i disagree, it releases serotonine witch causes a dramatic increase in serotonine (try it on MAOI, altough rather not, youd die right away of serotonine syndrome due to the excess dopamine levels. The dopamine increase also comes from the same mechanism as amphetamine's and isnt really caused by the serotonine release (try MDAI a selective serotonine releaser, its extremely boring and causes sedation, nothing like mdma at all).

I dont think there's anything fragible about the serotonine syndrome, i think poly drug use has the capabality to cause long term emotional problems in some ppl is due to dysregulation of the reward pathways by inducing tolerance to differend drugs during the same period, as for MDMA use on its own causing trouble this isnt very well established, altough i do beleive you and others that are suffering depression from it, that doesnt mean the serotonine system is fragile tough.

MDMA can cause worse crashes worse then other drugs (not in my case tough) however take in mind it acts on BOTH serotonine and dopamine, causing temporary downregulation of 2 neurotransmitter system as opposed to one neurotransmitter system, and this is also why i beleive poly drug use can cause problems, they cause downregulation in several neurotransmitter systems at once wich can cause additive negative effects. MDAI is known for its lack of comedown, and its basicly mdma without the dopamine release.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

A friend of me got completely screwed up by pramipexole, a _neuroprotective_ dopamine agonist, here's he's report:


> Just a heads up.
> 
> I've been trying to get off Mirapex for the past several months. I managed to get from 1.5 mg down to 0.625 mg, it took months but it was do-able. If you are wondering, I was on Pramipexole in a desperate attempt to fix my treatment-resistant Social Anxiety Disorder, and for that it did a great job, but I had to quit because it induced anhedonia as a side-effect.
> 
> ...


Months later it still didnt improve a thing, its scary what pramipexole did to him, here's an article about DAWS:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/715173

My point is, long term emotional problems dont have to be a consequence of neurotoxiticy, but IMO its related to dopaminergic dysregulation, as it seems to be rather a problem in poly drug users, drug users that take several drugs on a regular basis wich all cause changes in dopaminergic functioning in differend ways.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> A friend of me got completely screwed up by pramipexole, a _neuroprotective_ dopamine agonist, here's he's report:
> 
> Months later it still didnt improve a thing, its scary what pramipexole did to him, here's an article about DAWS:
> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/715173
> ...


Im glad you posted that, i found it informing.


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

Look the thing is, depression is a very elusive thing. I look fine. I am healthy. I am strong. I am mostly functioning as a normal human being.

But the depression comes and goes. It sometimes lasts for a few weeks. Sometimes for a few months. Then i am fine again.

I didn't even realize it was depression for the past 5 years. And after stopping MDMA, i assumed "yep. no harm, no foul"

Well, not quite.

I have never been depressed previous to taking it, and after stopping I can pinpoint the exact time of my first depressive episode. And I can then map out about 6-7 depressive episodes over the next 3-5 years.

Two years of fun, for a lifetime of depression.



bben said:


> I could do heroin for 25 years and be fine for example. Not to mention people can appear ok on the outside but be ****ed inside.
> 
> MDMA is progressively more dangerous the more you take it, so you might be fine 10 times and then the 11th develop major depression as your serotonin system gives out finally. Generally you will get zero problems from it, or a huge amount there isnt an inbetween really.


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

Dude, i respect your vast knowledge, but I have to respectfully disagree with what you are saying.

Just because you didn't notice a comedown doesn't mean you won't have effects from it. Not to be a debbie downer, but after stopping MDMA I felt totally fine and I went on living life for 6-7 years.

But, the depressive episodes started within a year of stopping. The first one lasted about a month i think. Not too bad. Then when I had a good job, i had some minor depressive episodes, but not too bad. Then in '07 i had a few major depressive episodes, and same with '08 and '09.

My point is, i didn't take that much. Maybe 30-40 pills total. But it definitely did something to my brain chemistry.

If you did two weeks daily (14 pills) then twice a week for a few months (16 pills) you are already in dangerous territory dude.

You _*could*_ be one of the lucky ones who doesn't suffer any adverse side effects, but murphys law says "anything that will go wrong will go wrong"

The point is, people who are depressed don't announce it. I am sure there a lot of MDMA users out there who don't even *know* they are depressed. I didn't know for 7 years. I went about my life fairly normally, I look healthy, I had/have a girlfriend, I held down jobs (although I left a few of them due to depression but i rationalized it to i didnt like that job)

So depression is a very elusive thing. It's not like you wake up and say "oh man i am depressed" it's this very subtle feeling. I can't really explain it properly over the internet.

I don't wish it on you, and i hope you make it out OK.

Not to be a debbie downer, but you have another 30-50 years of life ahead of you, and everything is cause and effect.

You aren't superhuman dude. It may feel like it now. But no one is.



crayzyMed said:


> I am personally skeptic of monouse of MDMA causes depression, to give an example of my use:
> 
> First 2 weeks i was taking it daily, never noticed a comedown (with my friends) then i slowed down to twice a week for several months (average taking 6-8 pills every evening with 120mg MDMA) then slowed down to once a week as i felt pretty sketchy the next day and using it twice a week simply wasnt possible anymore, bye bye honeymoon phase but it never gave me depression when i kept using it only once a week did this for several months too back in 2007, untill i had a 2,5 month break then took it weekly again for several months in the beginning of 2008 (started using beginning 2007).
> 
> Not i only did i use mdma that much all my friends did too and pretty every MDMA user around here takes this much, and ive NEVER seen anyone get long term depression from mdma use, short term yes but that usually was only the case when we or others were abusing amphetamine for several days, mdma made ppl tired here the next week but very rarely depressed. I get fatigue too the next week and brainzaps but that was all.


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

I can't really speak from studies, or papers, or theoreticals.

Only my personal experience.

I am sure there are some people who don't have longterm issues. But it's like playing russian roulette with your brain/life/longterm happiness.

I was young and naive back in the day. I didn't even think longterm.

Now that i am older, and i look back, it's like ... damn.

I like you man, and just trying to warn you to slow down and/or stop while you are "ahead"

At least I can say I tried 



crayzyMed said:


> Well i can say i was a pretty sensitive undividual in the past, and i did have severe mental problems (ADHD, OCD and social anxiety, the last 2 being absolutely bad).
> 
> My response to MDMA (and amphetamine too actually) was atypical compared to other socially anxious people, ive never heared anyone saying they stayed free of social anxiety during the MDMA/Amphetamine _crash_ even if the crash made me feel depressed, i would feel depressed but still free of SA. This is in contrast to my lack of any SA response to other euphoric drugs such as GHB, opiates and alcohol, even tough they made me high, not care and euphoric my SA was still there, you are correct about the dopamine connection, however for most dopamine induced in the reward pathways by a drug like GHB seems to be sufficient to get into remission while on the drug.
> 
> ...


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

crayzyMed said:


> Well i can say i was a pretty sensitive undividual in the past, and i did have severe mental problems (ADHD, OCD and social anxiety, the last 2 being absolutely bad).
> 
> My response to MDMA (and amphetamine too actually) was atypical compared to other socially anxious people, ive never heared anyone saying they stayed free of social anxiety during the MDMA/Amphetamine _crash_ even if the crash made me feel depressed, i would feel depressed but still free of SA. This is in contrast to my lack of any SA response to other euphoric drugs such as GHB, opiates and alcohol, even tough they made me high, not care and euphoric my SA was still there, you are correct about the dopamine connection, however for most dopamine induced in the reward pathways by a drug like GHB seems to be sufficient to get into remission while on the drug.
> 
> ...


I too question the simplicity of the supposed relationship between certain neurotransmitters and mental disorders. For psychosis, it's clear that an excess of dopamine is somehow involved--but how? I don't think anyone seems to really comprehend the actual neurochemistry of psychosis. If they did, one outcome would likely be anti-psychotics with greater efficacy, more selectivity, and fewer side effects.

In the case of OCD, it's clear that an excess of dopamine is not the only thing involved, because one can have both ADHD--a supposedly low dopamine condition--and OCD. In fact, the two are fairly common comorbidities. It would seem using the single neurotransmitter theory that this would be impossible. Clearly, the brain is far more complicated than that.

Anxiety is also not a high-serotonin condition. In fact, it quite often occurs with depression, a low-serotonin (among others) condition. NE and DA are clearly involved in some anxiety disorders, the latter in social phobia in particular. And serotonin dysregulation seems to promote dysregulation of the other NTs in a complex way (the same probably applies for dysregulation of other NTs). With low serotonin and low NE, suicide for instance may be more likely, because NE promotes alertness and attention (and the general fight-or-flight response). But what's also interesting is that dopamine seems to be even more affected in atypical depression than melancholic depression, and the suicide rate is also higher for the former. If "reward" is lower with dopaminergic dysfunction, that might explain part of the equation.



Eric69 said:


> Dude, i respect your vast knowledge, but I have to respectfully disagree with what you are saying.
> 
> Just because you didn't notice a comedown doesn't mean you won't have effects from it. Not to be a debbie downer, but after stopping MDMA I felt totally fine and I went on living life for 6-7 years.
> 
> ...


First of all, major depressive episodes typically last more than a few weeks or even a few months, leading me to believe you have atypical depression. As a chronic condition, I question whether you wouldn't have developed it anyhow. It's pretty common among social phobics. And the fact that you developed hypomania on an SSRI just goes to confirm that you probably have an underlying bipolar spectrum disorder--as it appears a great number of us here do, regardless of whether we realize it--that may be mild in severity but still exists. Did MDMA use promote the development of a disorder that is known to occur with social phobia--and involves the same neurotransmitters to a large extent? I think that's pretty far-fetched, but I suppose it's possible.


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

Actually dude, I don't have social phobia. I am on this forum because I googled anti depressants and it came up and people here seem to have a good knowledge of them.



bmwfan07 said:


> First of all, major depressive episodes typically last more than a few weeks or even a few months, leading me to believe you have atypical depression. As a chronic condition, I question whether you wouldn't have developed it anyhow. It's pretty common among social phobics. And the fact that you developed hypomania on an SSRI just goes to confirm that you probably have an underlying bipolar spectrum disorder--as it appears a great number of us here do, regardless of whether we realize it--that may be mild in severity but still exists. Did MDMA use promote the development of a disorder that is known to occur with social phobia--and involves the same neurotransmitters to a large extent? I think that's pretty far-fetched, but I suppose it's possible.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

One of the lucky one's? Dude ive never met anyone here that got long term depression from MDMA use, and i doubt they are depressed without knowing either, they are still very cheerfull, some of my mates are actually more happy then in the past due to MDMA use because they changed dramatically too.

The evidence does point to poly drug use rather MDMA use itself (altough the study's where small and its allways a good idea to cast some doubt) sensitive individuals can easily be missed in those study's tough. Anecdotals on the internet are far from conclusive that only "the lucky one's" dont get any long term problems from MDMA. They can indicate that MDMA is capable of inducing depression tough, atleast if they are sure of no conflicting variables.

So i have no idea where you base the lucky idea on.


> If you did two weeks daily (14 pills) then twice a week for a few months (16 pills) you are already in dangerous territory dude.


Edit: my own use isnt very relevant. But common use was 6-8 pills every night.

That said i actually use depression against depression, it never failed to kick me out (methylone a simular drug was capable of doing the same thing but didnt work very consistently unlike MDMA) one the mechanisms behind it can be increased HPA axis activity for a while after strong bursts of serotonine release, combined with the experience with made me rething some thinks. Altough a simular drug with a simular mechanism did the exact same thing in therapeutic doses (AMT). I stayed depression free after i stopped taking AMT.

Either way drugs have induced a depressive episode in me (abusing too many stimulants) week alter by taking MDMA i pushed back out, however i'm fairly cerain i would have been stuck in that depression if i didnt take MDMA, this isnt a sign of any braindamage. (nevertheless there is documented braindamage in humans of MDMA)

That said in 2009 i stayed drugfree for several months, because i lived temporary with my mum and i couldnt go rave anymore, i cant say i felt any better, worse actually due to the lack of social experiences.


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

Eric69 said:


> Actually dude, I don't have social phobia. I am on this forum because I googled anti depressants and it came up and people here seem to have a good knowledge of them.


Ah, okay. Didn't know that and it may change the picture substantially, but you've yet to actually state (unless I'm forgetting) what your depressive symptoms were in relation to atypical vs. melancholic. And given your hypomanic response to Zoloft, it would seem more likely that your depression was atypical/bipolar.

What are your comorbid disorders, if any, if not social phobia?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Anyway dont wonna brag about my mdma use, just find it highly unlikely that in only lucky one's dont get depressed when i never saw it occuring with someone from my school or my friends, that would still not rule out a significant risk, but then the study's would have been more conclusive (i'm open to new study's seperating poly drug use from MDMA showing the opposite, feel free to post any contraindicating evidence). And also the study's looking at poly drug use arent the best evidence ever as they were small.


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## User5 (Jun 22, 2010)

Keep taking the meds if its helping you and keep positive. Do things that will keep the ball rolling. I was on PAXIL and felt the same thing as you. When the 'high' is gone you'll still be left with a chilled back feeling so don't worry too much. Just don't take it for granted. keep doing stuff that will keep your positivity up!

Matt


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## alex999 (Oct 21, 2008)

Heh, I miss the "honeymoon" period I had on Lexapro. For the first month I felt a noticeable "high" every night 2-3 hours after taking the pill. Come to think of it, despite the fact there were things/SE's I hated about that drug, I do miss the relaxed, calm, chill, peace of mind that it gave me. 

Like the poster above me said, just don't be surprised by anything, by that I mean don't be upset if you suddenly "crash" or get down all of a sudden. It's normal. On my 6 month stint on Lexapro 90 percent of the time I felt good, but there were definitely down days and days were I had high anxiety. Being in a euphoric or numb state of mind 24/7 is not normal. 

The sexual side effects may not be as bad as it sounds, especially if you are augmenting your SSRI with Wellbutrin. People make it sound like you will be completely chemically castrated on SSRI's but usually those side effects diminish or become less pronounced over time. The only sexual problem I consistently had on Lexapro was the delayed ejaculation. I got used to it over time anyways.


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

alex999 said:


> The only sexual problem I consistently had on Lexapro was the delayed ejaculation. I got used to it over time anyways.


That's not even necessarily a bad thing  I bet women would line up for a guy who can keep going and going and going  like the energizer bunny!!!!!

Women don't want a "1 minute man" they'd much rather have a 1 hour man.


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

User5 said:


> Keep taking the meds if its helping you and keep positive. Do things that will keep the ball rolling. I was on PAXIL and felt the same thing as you. When the 'high' is gone you'll still be left with a chilled back feeling so don't worry too much. Just don't take it for granted. keep doing stuff that will keep your positivity up!
> 
> Matt


Thanks, will do man!


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Anyway dont wonna brag about my mdma use, just find it highly unlikely that in only lucky one's dont get depressed when *i never saw it occuring with someone from my school or my friends*, that would still not rule out a significant risk, but then the study's would have been more conclusive (i'm open to new study's seperating poly drug use from MDMA showing the opposite, feel free to post any contraindicating evidence). And also the study's looking at poly drug use arent the best evidence ever as they were small.


This means nothing, if you met me you would never know i was depressed, youd just think i was quiet. Most people hide depression as it is a stigmatized disorder associated with weakness.

Rest assured mdma doesnt cause massive black pitt depression, it is more of a mild depression that just never goes away completely. MDMA would not affect dopamine transmission much, or increase it downstream due to lower serotonin. Perhaps this is why it instills confidence in people, it simply switches people from SERT dominant to DOPA dominant on the see saw. This switch would be good for social phobics. As a matter of fact after doing MDMA i am not longer socially anxious (less serotonin in the punishment areas) i simply dont want to socialize (Depression). Its not so much even sadness i just feel ****ed up. I hear weird buzzing and have parasthesias and my memory is ****ed. After doing MDMA people would comment on how different i was. This **** can permanenly change personalities and do all sorts of ****. Serotonin is also in a reciprocal relationship with BDNF and you really dont want to **** that up. If mdma drains serotonin it drains most BDNF as well, and it leaves the brain unable to repair itself correctly. It makes sense as depressives have low bdnf and atrophy of hippocampal and arborization of dendrites/ axons.

Psychosis is probably a lack of serotonin giving rise to uninhibited dopamine. Without serotonin BDNF is usually very low or non-existent leaving people stuck in this psychotic state as BDNF is key for any synapse growth ect that would be needed to repair the brain. Psychosis happens to people all the time when people come of serotonin based antidepressants to fast. It happened to me sort of.

The point im getting it is this stuff ****s people up, not everyone, but most albeit maybe to subtle for them to notice. There is not good scientific evidence and tens of thousand of anecdotal reports for nothing. The term E-tard does not exist for no reason. People just love mdma and dont want to pin anything bad on it, i get that.

Let me end with this, people denied cigarettes caused cancer or were addictive up until it was 100% proven, although it was suspected DECADES before. Do you really need 100% conclusive proof when something is so obvious? Its common sense really.

Not to mention MDMA's close cousin Methamphetamine causes dopaminergic degeneration, although the evidence of this is no stronger then that of MDMA causing serotonin terminal degeneration. As a matter of fact we cant prove Methamphetamine causes behaviorial deficits anymore than MDMA except through anecdotal evidence and observations. Its dam near impossible to have controlled studies that 100% prove and account for everything, every variable as drug users dont just use one drug!

Do you need 100% proof, cmon stop fooling yourselves.

I


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

Word.

I have been functionally depressed for 7 years. You can't look at me and tell i'm depressed. Infact, for 6 of the 7 years I could still joke around and everything. I was pretty much "normal"

But it's like an ongoing mild depression. A feeling that "something is not quite right" once in awhile. I didn't pinpoint it until much later. This year actually.

Good call on the cigarettes example.

Anyway there are tons of things that are obviously bad for people, and mdma is not as bad as say heroin but it's not some "free ride" where you have all these ridiculously amazing highs for years on end and don't have some consequences from it.



bben said:


> This means nothing, if you met me you would never know i was depressed, youd just think i was quiet. Most people hide depression as it is a stigmatized disorder associated with weakness.
> 
> Rest assured mdma doesnt cause massive black pitt depression, it is more of a mild depression that just never goes away completely. MDMA would not affect dopamine transmission much, or increase it downstream due to lower serotonin. Perhaps this is why it instills confidence in people, it simply switches people from SERT dominant to DOPA dominant on the see saw. This switch would be good for social phobics. As a matter of fact after doing MDMA i am not longer socially anxious (less serotonin in the punishment areas) i simply dont want to socialize (Depression). Its not so much even sadness i just feel ****ed up. I hear weird buzzing and have parasthesias and my memory is ****ed. After doing MDMA people would comment on how different i was. This **** can permanenly change personalities and do all sorts of ****. Serotonin is also in a reciprocal relationship with BDNF and you really dont want to **** that up. If mdma drains serotonin it drains most BDNF as well, and it leaves the brain unable to repair itself correctly. It makes sense as depressives have low bdnf and atrophy of hippocampal and arborization of dendrites/ axons.
> 
> ...


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

And crazymed, i'm not out to get you man. I actually like you dude. You seem like a good guy. I'm just warning you from my own experience. I can honestly say that mdma is SO GOOD that it's easy to rationalize that it won't cause depression down the road. Its your brain fighting your brain. Your brain knows its not good for you, but at the same time, your brain knows how good it makes you feel. 

So you have to separate those two things. 

The mdma experience is second to nothing on this earth. Sex is maybe a close second. 

So it's easy for your brain to rationalize why it's not that bad.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

^^ I agree completely wich is actually why i mentioned about the glowing life improvement induced by MDMA is caused by self delusion, rocknroll who had been destroyed by MDMA actually claimed that.



> Do you need 100% proof, cmon stop fooling yourselves.


But yeah i'm fooling myself when i mentioned several times allready that my own drug use (poly drug use) has been associated with long term emotional problems in drug abusers, i refer to mono use of MDMA wich hasnt been associated with long term problems in small study's, i actually mentioned behind it those study's are small and arent the best evidence, i also mentioned several times that i absolutely beleive the internet reports reporting long term emotional problems.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Bump, i didnt mean to be a buzzkill in this topic.


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