# Waitress at Applebees



## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

So a couple of months ago I had one of those meltdowns in reaction to some stranger on the street who thought that I was homeless; even though it was in the same corner as Applebees, nobody in Applebees heard me (I asked!) But, unlike other occasions, this time I felt sorry rather than angry (sorry for the meltdown that is). I did, however, ended up complaining to waitress how everything is bad for me, which is by far not the first time I complain; but perhaps the fact that this time I felt more sad than angry is what made it less threatening? In any case, the waitress tried to talk to me, not much but a lot more than others, and at the end she told me what her name is and I should ask for her next time I come. When I was leaving Applebees I also talked to the manager a little bit who told me he is from Haiti (I believe) yet White because his grandparents moved there from Europe and I asked him a couple of questions about it. 

After that I went to see my mom for summer break. I just came back a couple of days ago and I went to Applebees again. They sat me at a table that is being served by a different waitress, and I was studying there for several hours. But then at some point that waitress that talked to me a couple of months ago waved me and came to talk to me, the conversation was very short, but she sounded excited and she was also holding my hand; when I told her where I been in the summer she was excited and said I should have taken photos but then before I had time to answer she said "I have to take care of few tables and then I will get back to you and talk". She didn't come until another few hours, and when she came she actually sat next to me and asked "so you are doing your homework" and I started explaining to her I was studying for tests. Then the older man who is probably the manager also came and also asked me how I was doing, and when I told him about my summer he then left and after that the girl talked to me for just another minute or so and then she said she will let me get back to my studies. 

Anyway, what would you make of it? On the one hand she went out of her way to talk to me even though I wasn't at the table she was serving, and also held my hand. Yet on the other hand, the conversation was really short and it was her who cut it off (which is also weird since she cut it off at the exciting point when she said I should have taken pictures of mountains I told her about, its like she was the last one to say something and she was the one to cut it off). I guess you could say she might like me but she is at work which makes it hard. But then again, it wasn't that super busy so if she really wanted to get back to me she would have gotten back sooner. 

The other thing I am thinking of is more general question: could it be that waitresses are trying to pretend to like guys when they actually don't, just in hopes of getting more tips? The other possibility, of course, is that she was just talking to me out of pity. But still why would, out of all the people, the waitress (who gets paid) be the one to "pity" me or "like" me or whatever the case is? And another interesting question is this: can anything genuine with waitresses be possible, even in principle? I mean if any sort of genuine connection develops (be that friendship or romantic interest) wouldn't it be weird to pay them for food rather than eating for free? 

And, last but not least: do you think that older man walked over because she asked him, so that she can have a protective distance from me? I mean he is MUCH older than both of us so I don't think he is trying to date her. Or the other possibility is that he could have figued that I wasn't that busy with my work (since I was talking to her) so it was a good time for him to talk to me too (after all, when he talked to me the first time around it was "after" I already done talking to her, and it just simply happened that the second time it was simultaneous rather than after) What do you think?


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## Gloaming (Aug 1, 2017)

She sounds nice, but I don't think you should make too much of it yet. I think our SA often makes us put more meaning behind interactions that other people might consider normal or everyday. I think it's a good sign that she held your hand, though!


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## HiddenFathoms (Jul 18, 2017)

causalset said:


> So a couple of months ago I had one of those meltdowns in reaction to some stranger on the street who thought that I was homeless; even though it was in the same corner as Applebees, nobody in Applebees heard me (I asked!) But, unlike other occasions, this time I felt sorry rather than angry (sorry for the meltdown that is). I did, however, ended up complaining to waitress how everything is bad for me, which is by far not the first time I complain; but perhaps the fact that this time I felt more sad than angry is what made it less threatening? In any case, the waitress tried to talk to me, not much but a lot more than others, and at the end she told me what her name is and I should ask for her next time I come. When I was leaving Applebees I also talked to the manager a little bit who told me he is from Haiti (I believe) yet White because his grandparents moved there from Europe and I asked him a couple of questions about it. After that I went to see my mom for summer break. I just came back a couple of days ago and I went to Applebees again. They sat me at a table that is being served by a different waitress, and I was studying there for several hours. But then at some point that waitress that talked to me a couple of months ago waved me and came to talk to me, the conversation was very short, but she sounded excited and she was also holding my hand; when I told her where I been in the summer she was excited and said I should have taken photos but then before I had time to answer she said "I have to take care of few tables and then I will get back to you and talk". She didn't come until another few hours, and when she came she actually sat next to me and asked "so you are doing your homework" and I started explaining to her I was studying for tests. Then the older man who is probably the manager also came and also asked me how I was doing, and when I told him about my summer he then left and after that the girl talked to me for just another minute or so and then she said she will let me get back to my studies.
> 
> Anyway, what would you make of it?


how old would you estimate her to be?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

HiddenFathoms said:


> how old would you estimate her to be?


I would say in her 20-s. But I am rather bad in deciding "where" in her 20-s: I remember few times when I was assuming people were 20 but it turned out they were 26 and 28 respectively. So I am not sure. I myself am 37. I used to come accross younger than my age in the past, but apparently not so much any more since people seem to know I am in my 30-s. But this girl "could" have thought I was younger: when I talked to her the first time around and was complaining about the woman on the street who thought I was homeless she said "no you don't look homeless you look like a student". So why would she say "student" rather than "faculty" unless she mistook my age (like people used to a long time ago)? But then again its also possible I have mentioned I was student myself: for insteance I could have said "that woman on the street thought I carry big bag because I am homeless but actually this is a bag with textbooks because I am student" that is certainly possible -- and hten she could have lied to me when she said that I look like a student since she didn't want to hurt me by telling me I look older. But anyway back to your question, she is in her 20-s most likely, but I have no idea where.


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## HiddenFathoms (Jul 18, 2017)

you know what? that was dumb of me to ask that question, like it would provide some sort of magical clue. i apologize @causalset.

i asked because i was trying to ascertain where her head is at. but really that is impossible to do. the only way to know for certain what is in the head of another person, is through communication.

would you be interested in her if she was interested in you? if so, then best to give her your number or ask her out for a drink after her shift...or do something that would allow for further communication or a better idea of her motivations.

i can't answer for the man's motivations in approaching. just as i can not answer if her motivations are to solicit bigger tips from you.

yes, it is possible to have something develop with a waitress and no, it would not be strange to still pay for food. if you married a woman who worked at a local grocery chain, you would still need to pay for groceries. the food is not hers to give away, it belongs to applebee's.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

HiddenFathoms said:


> would you be interested in her if she was interested in you? if so, then best to give her your number or ask her out for a drink after her shift...or do something that would allow for further communication or a better idea of her motivations.


Yes I would be interested in her if I knew she was in me. But I guess if I were to ask her out and she were to say no it would just be way too awkward so I am not sure I would be able to get myself to take that risk. Do you have any kind of suggestions on how to get "her" to ask "me" out (if she is interested) without having to ask her out myself?

And I understand as to why its hard for you to answer my questions, as we both know the situation looks pretty vague, but thanks for trying. I guess I really don't have much of a social experience, so any kind of advice, big or little, always helps.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

The fondest memories I have of social eating are from Applebees many years ago. Their staff and service was always top notch at the one I went to. That has little to do with the OP in this thread but just sayin.


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## HiddenFathoms (Jul 18, 2017)

causalset said:


> Yes I would be interested in her if I knew she was in me. But I guess if I were to ask her out and she were to say no it would just be way too awkward so I am not sure I would be able to get myself to take that risk. Do you have any kind of suggestions on how to get "her" to ask "me" out (if she is interested) without having to ask her out myself?
> 
> And I understand as to why its hard for you to answer my questions, as we both know the situation looks pretty vague, but thanks for trying. I guess I really don't have much of a social experience, so any kind of advice, big or little, always helps.


IF i could answer that question i could make a LOT of money. don't feel alone, as many guys would hope for an answer to that question.

a lot of life involves rejection. it is awkward. i agree with you. but, it is also a huge part of life and so life is hugely difficult if rejection stops you in your tracks.

here is a video that helped change my brain about this and be more willing to take chances:






my advice would be to do a 'low risk' ask. so for example saying something like 'you are really easy to talk to and interesting, would you like to continue this conversation another time?'. if she says yes, ask for her contact info.

if she says no, it's not the end of the world because you don't know WHY she said no. we assume we are at fault but she may be just out of a relationship, have a child she's fighting for custody for, be insecure or a million other things.

_don't_ assume rejection means _you_ have fallen short. (i say don't but that can be hard, so i really mean try not to ).

if she says yes, great!


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## Erroll (Jan 18, 2016)

Umma gonna guess that she was flirting with you. Waitresses don't normally hold hands with, or touch their customers. 

I'm as weird as all hell, but I found someone who loves me like I'm golden. So you never know. I'm reminded of Dr Seuss; "You never can tell what some people will buy."


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Erroll said:


> Umma gonna guess that she was flirting with you. Waitresses don't normally hold hands with, or touch their customers.
> 
> I'm as weird as all hell, but I found someone who loves me like I'm golden. So you never know. I'm reminded of Dr Seuss; "You never can tell what some people will buy."


I can certainly see this. But like I outlined in the original post, there are also other signs that point in the other direction: like why did she talk so little, or why did that much older man came over? Do you think she was flirting "at first" but then lost interest real fast, or what do you make of it?

And here is "what if" question. As I said I don't really know if she is interested. But "if" she is and "if" it was flirting, do you think I should come back to Applebees quickly, or else she would decide I rejected her? I guess my original plan was to give it a week maybe? I mean, I weren't coming to Applebees this whole summer when I was gone visitting my mom, and apparently she still likes me despite all that; and, on the other hand, if I were to start coming every day that would look obsessive especially since she talked to me so little. But, on the other hand, if I wait too long would she feel like I am unresponsive which is the opposite extreme? I guess my lifestory is that some people say I am obsessive, others say I am unresponsive, and nobody says anything in between. So where should I find a balance? Is coming there once a week sounds right or should I be coming more or less often? And, more importantly, if I do come, and they sit me with some other waitress, and I won't have guts to ask for her, would she hold it against me?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

HiddenFathoms said:


> my advice would be to do a 'low risk' ask. so for example saying something like 'you are really easy to talk to and interesting, would you like to continue this conversation another time?'. if she says yes, ask for her contact info.
> 
> if she says no, it's not the end of the world because you don't know WHY she said no. we assume we are at fault but she may be just out of a relationship, have a child she's fighting for custody for, be insecure or a million other things.
> 
> ...


I can totally see where you are coming from, but I guess the awkwardness has to do with whats going on in their minds rather than what story I make in my own mind to make myself feel better. So even if I tell myself "well maybe she is married with kids" but in reality she is single and simply thinks I am unattractive (or worse: creepy for even considering that she might be interested) then my telling things to myself won't change the reality of her actual thoughts to go away.

So I guess maybe the better question is what to do in order not to lose face in her mind, or in the minds of people that are watching me. I guess as far as people that are watching me I can pick out the time when its less crouded. But what about that man I mentioned in the original post? If she were to reject me, I certainly prefer this rejection to be private rather than that man (or others) learning about it.


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## Erroll (Jan 18, 2016)

causalset said:


> I can certainly see this. But like I outlined in the original post, there are also other signs that point in the other direction: like why did she talk so little, or why did that much older man came over? Do you think she was flirting "at first" but then lost interest real fast, or what do you make of it?


Perhaps, because the guy was her boss, non-verbally suggesting by breathing down her neck, that she get back to work.

And I would go back to Applebees to see her again as quickly as possible because, otherwise she might feel rejected. An added bonus to getting back to see her quickly is that it will non-verbally show her that you are interested in her. You do want her to notice that you are interested, don't you?


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

1. She's a lot younger than you. That decreases the odds that she's interested in you. Getting old sucks. 

2. She's a waitress. Waitresses and bartenders flirt to get tips. You have to be careful when dealing with customer service people.

The only way to know is to just ask her out. But when you ask her out, your goals should just be to get experience asking a girl out. Your goal should be learning how to ask a girl out and not care too much if she says yes or no. 

Try not to build her up in your mind. You don't know her. You don't know if you would like her if you got to know her. Keep telling yourself that you don't know if you like her because you don't know her. 

When you ask her, don't state it in the form of a question.

Don't: Will you please go out with me?
Do: We should go out together. 

Dress nice. Smell nice. Do your best to act like this isn't important to you. Good luck.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Erroll said:


> Perhaps, because the guy was her boss, non-verbally suggesting by breathing down her neck, that she get back to work.
> 
> And I would go back to Applebees to see her again as quickly as possible because, otherwise she might feel rejected. An added bonus to getting back to see her quickly is that it will non-verbally show her that you are interested in her. You do want her to notice that you are interested, don't you?


Here are few questions:

1) I been to Applebees on Saturday night, and now its Monday night, and there is no time machine. So do you think that even if I go there today (they close at 1 AM) it would already be too late?

2) If I do follow your advice and go ASAP, will I have to do it again, and then again, etc? Isn't it a bit too expensive to go to Applebees every day? Or are you saying I should go there every day for a week or so and after that I can tone it down?

3) If you say her boss wanted her to get back to work, wouldn't he repeat the same thing if I see her again?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

AngelClare said:


> 1. She's a lot younger than you. That decreases the odds that she's interested in you. Getting old sucks.


I guess I missed out on the part of my life when I was in my 20-s, both academically and socially (well I did earn my first PH.D. back then and I did have two girlfriends -- the third one was later -- but none of it was any good). So I want a time machine and get back to when I was younger. Part of the time machine is that I went back to school to get second Ph.D. (first was in physics and the second one will be in math) and the other part of time machine is I want to date women in their 20-s. And no that doesn't mean I will dump them for women my age and/or dump them when they get older. Not at all. Rather I want to have a lasting relationship with them, hopefully leading to marriage, basically something I SHOULD HAVE done when I was younger and didn't do. So I want a time machine and do things well this time around -- and since I learned my lessons I hope to do well this time so there won't be any need for another time machine later on.

This brings me to asking: even though most young people don't want to date older people, obviously there are exceptions. So how can I pick out who those exceptions are? Are you saying that I should look at the settings when there are no other complicating factors, such as her being a waitress who possibly wants tips? Or what are your suggestions?



AngelClare said:


> 2. She's a waitress. Waitresses and bartenders flirt to get tips. You have to be careful when dealing with customer service people.


Yeah that is also what I was thinking. But then the question is: why was she holding my hand? Do some waitresses go THAT far for tips? And also why is it that the time she was holding my hand was when I was served by someone else? I guess you could say that she was hoping I would start asking for her to be my server, which would in term mean she would get paid more. But I guess if she is in the mission to get more customers then why would she focus on select person such as myself? Or are you saying she holds hands with lots of people and I was just part of that routine?



AngelClare said:


> When you ask her, don't state it in the form of a question.
> 
> Don't: Will you please go out with me?
> Do: We should go out together.


Maybe I am missing something. To me it feels the opposite: its nicer to give her a chance to say no (through making it a question) than to just speak for her (by making a statement). Or am I wrong? Why?


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## HiddenFathoms (Jul 18, 2017)

@causalset if you can read the 2nd half of the post from @AngelClare again and take time to think on it and apply it, you will benefit.

there is no way to take a risk/and also avoid rejection. if the potential reward is worth it, you will have to take the risk of things not working out. there is no way around it.

by being so specific in what your looking for (_regret is a waste of time, the past has already happened and you only have control over the future_) you may overlook someone great who would understand you and appreciate what you have to offer.


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## Erroll (Jan 18, 2016)

causalset said:


> Here are few questions:
> 
> 1) I been to Applebees on Saturday night, and now its Monday night, and there is no time machine. So do you think that even if I go there today (they close at 1 AM) it would already be too late?


Perhaps, but I wouldn't think that a waitress would expect to see every customer every day.



causalset said:


> 2) If I do follow your advice and go ASAP, will I have to do it again, and then again, etc? Isn't it a bit too expensive to go to Applebees every day? Or are you saying I should go there every day for a week or so and after that I can tone it down?


Do you know when she works? Did you take note of her name? Could you ask waiter/waitress when she's there? The next time you see her, tell her you're interested in getting to know more about her, and offer your phone number. If she turns it down, you have gained knowledge, that she is not interested in you. If she takes your number and does not call you, she is politely turning you down. If she calls you, tell her what you find interesting about her. Answer her questions succinctly and try to direct the conversation towards her; her interests and desires.



causalset said:


> 3) If you say her boss wanted her to get back to work, wouldn't he repeat the same thing if I see her again?


Yes he would. That's why you offer her your phone number; to move the conversation to a more relaxed time and place.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Looks like she wants dick pics. Send her one, chicks love those.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Erroll said:


> Do you know when she works? Did you take note of her name? Could you ask waiter/waitress when she's there?


As far as when she works, I only been to Applebees twice; the first time I talked to her it was evening for sure (it was dark); the second time I came to Applebees, I came in the early afternoon, but she first waved at me few hours later, which was probably late afternoon, although still light, and she waved at me as she was walking through the door, then she came over and held my hand, then she excused herself, and then she came back few hours later when it was dark. So I guess from those two instances I would guess she comes at the late afternoon and then works through the evening. But I am not sure how reliable this guess is: do some waitresses have different times at different days of the week?

As far as her name, I don't remember it, but I have written her name down, so I guess I should try my best not to lose that piece of paper where I written it. I also don't remember how she looks like. So thats the other thing that might have happened last time I was there when I thought she was taking too long to come back: perhaps she was telling me something non-verbally while I weren't knowing it was her? Not that I saw anyone doing it, but I guess I can't rule out that scenario. But anyway the good thing is I have her name written down and the other good thing is that the "first" time I was there (a couple of months ago) when she gave me her name she told me I could ask for her.

In any case, the problem is that I just feel too awkward asking for her, I mean nobody else asks for a particular waitress, they just normally ask do you want a table or a booth and then they just pick out table/booth for you, they never ask "do you want a specific waitress" so I guess volunteering that preference would feel awkward.



Erroll said:


> The next time you see her, tell her you're interested in getting to know more about her, and offer your phone number. If she turns it down, you have gained knowledge, that she is not interested in you.


Here is an interesting question. On my end, I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't interested. But on your end, you were thinking that she was, so why do "you" consider the possibility of her not giving me a phone number? Do you think she might have lost interest due to my not coming back soon enough? But, within the framework of your logic, if her only concern is that I am the disinterested party, wouldn't that be proven wrong by the act of my offering her a number? I guess the reason I am asking this question is that it happened before when I was rejected for the fact that *I* (not them) was supposedly disinterested, and it never made sense to me. It goes right along the alley with "you have to be happy with yourself first" which doesn't make any sense either. Could it be that the reason I am told to be happy with myself is BECAUSE I come across as not sufficiently interested in anything anyone else has to offer? Do you think she would also give me an advice to be happy with myself -- after all if my happiness were dependent on other sources I would have came to Applebees earlier?

And by the way no, she didn't say any of it yet, I am just wondering how would you make sense of it if she would.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

HiddenFathoms said:


> by being so specific in what your looking for (_regret is a waste of time, the past has already happened and you only have control over the future_) you may overlook someone great who would understand you and appreciate what you have to offer.


In the scenario of an older woman coming along who is great in all aspects other than age, I wouldn't turn her down for the age, no. But that doesn't change the fact that, as nobody is coming along of any age group altogether, I might have some age preferences. And obviously those age preferences would translate into something positive if a bit younger woman comes along, as happened in Applebees.

As far as the second half of @AngelClare reply, are you referring to the part that talks about my not knowing her and thus not knowing if she is right for me? Thats true, but I am not in a position to be picky since I have no options other than people that occasionally talk to me such as herself. Thats why I have to take every option I get (since I only have like a couple a year) in order to even get the foot through the door, before the question of evaluating who is right for me is even relevent.

That is the one big underlying factor behind all my posts. Nobody, in literal sense, ever talks to me. Thats why my only option is to grasp at any straw I get.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Forever Me said:


> What? Do you have face blindness?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well that happens all the time. Like there was a time when at the library a friend of my officemate said hello and I asked her who she was, and after telling me who she was she exited the situation apparently assuming I didn't want to talk when actually I simply didn't recognized her. And also there was a time when I didn't recognize my fellow student who took me to the mountains with a group of people. But after that incident of not recognizing him I made sure to remember how he looked like, but then, despite my remembering it from that piont on, he was the one who started totally ignoring me.


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## Erroll (Jan 18, 2016)

causalset said:


> do some waitresses have different times at different days of the week?


It is conceivable that when a restaurant becomes unexpectedly busy, that they would call in more help. I used to get called back like that, when I delivered pizzas.



causalset said:


> I also don't remember how she looks like.


It's difficult for me to remember faces too. And it's dangerous, because she might think that you are purposefully ignoring her and feel slighted. It might be good to tell her that you have a problem remembering faces, just in case that has happened.



causalset said:


> In any case, the problem is that I just feel too awkward asking for her,


If you want to get closer to anyone, you have to make yourself vulnerable. Vulnerable = comfortable = approachable. Of course feeling vulnerable isn't a pleasant feeling. It's the work you have to do to get to a better place.



causalset said:


> Here is an interesting question. On my end, I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't interested. But on your end, you were thinking that she was, so why do "you" consider the possibility of her not giving me a phone number?


Think of it statistically rather than empirically. I would feel that these attentions which she has shown you are likely to indicate her interest in you, although the possibility of a statistical anomaly is always present.



causalset said:


> Do you think she might have lost interest due to my not coming back soon enough?


No.



causalset said:


> But, within the framework of your logic, if her only concern is that I am the disinterested party, wouldn't that be proven wrong by the act of my offering her a number?


Yes. And I believe that you do indeed need to make some sort of statement of interest. And offering your phone number would certainly show that interest.



causalset said:


> I guess the reason I am asking this question is that it happened before when I was rejected for the fact that *I* (not them) was supposedly disinterested, and it never made sense to me.


I can believe that. You seem disinterested because you (and everybody else) is afraid of appearing awkward. But when someone is awkward, they seem more approachable and less of a threat; in a word, more likable. People who seem to be perfectly apt and in control of everything can be off-putting in casual interactions.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Erroll said:


> I can believe that. You seem disinterested because you (and everybody else) is afraid of appearing awkward. But when someone is awkward, they seem more approachable and less of a threat; in a word, more likable. People who seem to be perfectly apt and in control of everything can be off-putting in casual interactions.


Everyone knows I am awkward _as is_; I mean just the way I walks and my messy hair makes me way more awkward than most. I guess when I said I don't want to appear awkward I meant I don't want to be even more awkward than I already am.


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## Erroll (Jan 18, 2016)

causalset said:


> Everyone knows I am awkward _as is_; I mean just the way I walks and my messy hair makes me way more awkward than most. I guess when I said I don't want to appear awkward I meant I don't want to be even more awkward than I already am.


Don't say awkward. It has pejorative connotations. Say eccentric. Eccentricity is strange, out-of-the-ordinary, sometimes weirdly attractive behavior or dress.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Erroll said:


> Don't say awkward. It has pejorative connotations. Say eccentric. Eccentricity is strange, out-of-the-ordinary, sometimes weirdly attractive behavior or dress.


Please re-read the part of your text that I was quoting to get the context. Basically you were telling me people don't like me because I am "not awkward enough" and I said in response that wasn't the case (whichever words you use).


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Update: today I followed the first part of @Erroll advice in that I actually went to Applebees. But I didn't follow any of the rest of his advice: I didn't have guts to ask for that waitress, even though I had her name written down with me. Also, like I mentioned earlier, I don't remember how she looks like. So I have no idea whether she was there and ignored me, or whether she wasn't there today. I did remember one of the "other" waitresses who helped out getting me ice cream instead of putting it on a table asked "so you ordered ice cream?" and then said "how are you". So I suspect it might have been her but I am really not sure. What I did see is that in the portion of Applebees that was served by that waitress the other day, I saw today's waitress taking some time talking to customers and sitting at their table (she did it to both male and female customers). So I have no idea if that was the same waitress or not. Also I obviously don't remember the day of the week when I ran onto that waitress 2 months ago; I do, however, remember that the second time I ran into her -- last week -- it was saturday night. So should I just come there saturday night again in order to increase chances of running into her? Or do you think she is there every day of the week which would imply she ignored me? How does it usually work with food services how many days a week do people typically work?


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

causalset said:


> Maybe I am missing something. To me it feels the opposite: its nicer to give her a chance to say no (through making it a question) than to just speak for her (by making a statement). Or am I wrong? Why?


It's a bit of a psychological trick.

If you ask someone and they feel uncertain, their default answer is no. Questions are confusing. If you say, "There's a concert this weekend. You should come with me" it's not a question. It's more confident and it makes saying no more difficult.

It's all about "framing."

I'm guessing you overthink things. Do some research on how to overcome overthinking using mindfulness techniques. You need to connect with people and not get lost in your thoughts and anxieties.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

AngelClare said:


> It's a bit of a psychological trick.
> 
> If you ask someone and they feel uncertain, their default answer is no. Questions are confusing. If you say, "There's a concert this weekend. You should come with me" it's not a question. It's more confident and it makes saying no more difficult.
> 
> ...


Isn't it precisely why "we should" version is rude? I for one wouldn't want to be put in a situation where I feel forced to say yes to something I would otherwise be unsure of.


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## Erroll (Jan 18, 2016)

causalset said:


> Update: today I followed the first part of @Erroll advice in that I actually went to Applebees. But I didn't follow any of the rest of his advice: I didn't have guts to ask for that waitress, even though I had her name written down with me. Also, like I mentioned earlier, I don't remember how she looks like. So I have no idea whether she was there and ignored me, or whether she wasn't there today. I did remember one of the "other" waitresses who helped out getting me ice cream instead of putting it on a table asked "so you ordered ice cream?" and then said "how are you". So I suspect it might have been her but I am really not sure. What I did see is that in the portion of Applebees that was served by that waitress the other day, I saw today's waitress taking some time talking to customers and sitting at their table (she did it to both male and female customers). So I have no idea if that was the same waitress or not. Also I obviously don't remember the day of the week when I ran onto that waitress 2 months ago; I do, however, remember that the second time I ran into her -- last week -- it was saturday night. So should I just come there saturday night again in order to increase chances of running into her? Or do you think she is there every day of the week which would imply she ignored me? How does it usually work with food services how many days a week do people typically work?


How about you write a short note to her, saying you enjoyed her company and would like to see her again. You could also say that you have problems recognizing faces and hope that she didn't think that you were ignoring her. You could also add your number with an invitation to call. You could ask your waitress, who in the restaurant, could pass the note to her. If it turns out that your waitress is one and the same as the waitress who expressed interest in you, all will be explained when she reads the note.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Erroll said:


> How about you write a short note to her, saying you enjoyed her company and would like to see her again. You could also say that you have problems recognizing faces and hope that she didn't think that you were ignoring her. You could also add your number with an invitation to call. You could ask your waitress, who in the restaurant, could pass the note to her. If it turns out that your waitress is one and the same as the waitress who expressed interest in you, all will be explained when she reads the note.


Asking to pass a note feels just as awkward as asking to talk to her face to face.

Do you think its possible to find the list of employees online and email her? I think I would feel more comfortable this way.


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## Erroll (Jan 18, 2016)

causalset said:


> Asking to pass a note feels just as awkward as asking to talk to her face to face.
> 
> Do you think its possible to find the list of employees online and email her? I think I would feel more comfortable this way.


I doubt they would give out email addresses even if they had them.

Anyway, what if it is your awkwardness that she finds becoming about you ? That part of you wouldn't come through in an email, where you can collect your thoughts and edit your sentences. She might not even recognize who you are by your email..


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

You should just run everything through your mind and not act in the real world _at all_ since it is wrong. I mean _everything_. Just create the reality that you think exists and spend the rest of your life hooked up on a lifeglug and in realtime just run through the correct reality of your life according to how the universe should function.

So in your mind you wander into the applebees, unshowered and throwing stuff about. She comes up to you and tells you that she likes the way you don't shower because other men just want sex from her and that she appreciates your display of manliness.

Next, she asks you on a date (because she _should_ do that), and you go on the date and later you get your physics professorship and she provides you with some children so you can pass on your genes.

Obviously I have rushed the end and this hasn't taken 40 years or whatever you will need it to, you will just have to flesh out the rest of it with the adequate detail.


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## HiddenFathoms (Jul 18, 2017)

causalset said:


> In the scenario of an older woman coming along who is great in all aspects other than age, I wouldn't turn her down for the age, no. But that doesn't change the fact that, as nobody is coming along of any age group altogether, I might have some age preferences. And obviously those age preferences would translate into something positive if a bit younger woman comes along, as happened in Applebees.
> 
> As far as the second half of @AngelClare reply, are you referring to the part that talks about my not knowing her and thus not knowing if she is right for me? Thats true, but I am not in a position to be picky since I have no options other than people that occasionally talk to me such as herself. Thats why I have to take every option I get (since I only have like a couple a year) in order to even get the foot through the door, before the question of evaluating who is right for me is even relevent.
> 
> That is the one big underlying factor behind all my posts. Nobody, in literal sense, ever talks to me. Thats why my only option is to grasp at any straw I get.


i admire that you are open to a variety of ages, even if you have natural preferences. this is wise.

no, i was referring to the part in @AngelClare's post that talked about the level you invest into this. to approach it with a positive spirit but also a certain measure of nonchalance. i know you are highly intelligent and i advise to read it again knowing that is the aspect i am encouraging you to look at.

one of my best friends is aspie. i understand that your brain processes information in different (but very cool) ways and that sometimes it can feel like you are trying to move through a world designed for other people.

i am going to give you the most basic advice i can think of:

1. smile. 97% of communication between humans is non-verbal. the most powerful weapon any person has socially is a smile. so smile even if it feels awkward. eventually it will feel more natural. how long should you practice this for? until you notice people smiling back and engaging with you in a different way than they are now.

2. see someone professionally to help with obsessive and persistent thoughts and to be heard. legitimately understood and heard. i have had counselling myself so this is not a way of dismissing you and saying 'get help'. i believe you deserve to have one-on-one advice and explanations from someone extensively schooled to help understand your thoughts.

3. did you watch the video i linked you? do small things that may end up in rejection. this is not safe. rejection will hurt. just like it has in the past. there is no way to avoid this. you have spent a thread asking how to and should now recognize there is not. life hurts. and sometimes it's great. but you don't get to the great parts without wounds along the way. if you want things badly enough you will be willing to risk for reward.

you will have to ask for her by name, in this case.

4. ask people questions. but not intellectual questions, emotional ones. so if you don't understand someone's behaviour, ask them why they feel that way. practice assigning emotions with behaviours until you can naturally match them. i don't process my own emotions easily so although different, i have had to do things like this as well.

5. try to make platonic friends with girls. even if you outright explain you want some experience and would like to take a platonic girl friend for a drink. you need experience even being friends with girls.

would you consider counselling? you have devoted a lot to your education and field. i feel you are very deserving of some personal attention and to enrich your personal life in the way you desire.

if you do, my last piece of advice is to get a woman counsellor for some practical 'practice' speaking to an intelligent woman.


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

HiddenFathoms said:


> 2. see someone professionally to help with obsessive and persistent thoughts and to be heard. legitimately understood and heard. i have had counselling myself so this is not a way of dismissing you and saying 'get help'. i believe you deserve to have one-on-one advice and explanations from someone extensively schooled to help understand your thoughts.


This is a must for causalset. He is not gonna get anywhere without one a week therapy.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

Just forget it...if you've forgotten what she even looks like, what's the point?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

SofaKing said:


> Just forget it...if you've forgotten what she even looks like, what's the point?


As I mentioned I forget how a lot of people look like -- including my own roommates as well as my officemate's friend who is in the office like constantly. So what are you telling me: to stay isolated like I am? Alright, so I made a mistake in not developing a habbit of paying attention to how people look like. But I want to fix that mistake and learn to do that, instead of being loner all the time.


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## HiddenFathoms (Jul 18, 2017)

Qolselanu said:


> This is a must for causalset. He is not gonna get anywhere without one a week therapy.


yeah i have noticed that many forum members speak of @causalset (i am mentioning you here causal so that it is not like i am talking 'about' you ) with affection even if there are communication break-downs at times.

sometimes a forum can only do so much. many of us have benefitted from one-on-one attention from a mental health professional!


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## Noraborealis (Jul 3, 2017)

Just about everything has been said already. I guess it just comes down to, if you want to see this girl badly enough you'll find a way. Despite your obstacles and difficulty I personally believe you can do it. The big question is how, and ultimately only you can answer that part. You are obviously a very bright human being, so I have nothing but faith in your abilities. Anything is possible if you put your mind to it and if you want it badly enough. Very few things can stand in the way of the power of our determination. People have made amazing triumphs without limbs and without their senses of sight and sound. No matter our psychological or physiological hindrances, we can still overcome them and take what we want. I think you've gotten plenty of advice, now here's some encouragement: go get 'em.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

Erroll said:


> How about you write a short note to her, saying you enjoyed her company and would like to see her again. You could also say that you have problems recognizing faces and hope that she didn't think that you were ignoring her. You could also add your number with an invitation to call. You could ask your waitress, who in the restaurant, could pass the note to her. If it turns out that your waitress is one and the same as the waitress who expressed interest in you, all will be explained when she reads the note.


No...why make this so complicated?

For all the time spent writing here...he could have just asked her out.

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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

splendidbob said:


> You should just run everything through your mind and not act in the real world _at all_ since it is wrong. I mean _everything_. Just create the reality that you think exists and spend the rest of your life hooked up on a lifeglug and in realtime just run through the correct reality of your life according to how the universe should function.
> 
> So in your mind you wander into the applebees, unshowered and throwing stuff about. She comes up to you and tells you that she likes the way you don't shower because other men just want sex from her and that she appreciates your display of manliness.
> 
> ...


This. Especially the first paragraph 

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## gnomealone (Feb 3, 2013)

forget the girl for a second. ....

If you are having upsetting public meltdowns because people are thinking
you're homeless consider changing your appearance i.e. haircut or whatever
Conformity is a small price to pay if it eliminates episodes like these. 

As to the girl, I now say... forget about it. It is possible that two people (I include the manager) actually can show some sympathy and empathy to a fellow human being. The manager told you outright that he knew what it was like to be different from the majority of people. Two people being kind to another in their busy day, somebody calculate the odds for me.
You have found a place to go where at least a couple of people
have been decent and kind. I sure would like that right now. Take that
and be content.


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## Gloaming (Aug 1, 2017)

causalset said:


> So a couple of months ago I had one of those meltdowns in reaction to some stranger on the street who thought that I was homeless;


Do people think you're homeless a lot? Maybe take a step back from the whole waitress problem and focus on that.

Get a new haircut, and specifically tell your stylist/barber that you're looking for something that looks neat and doesn't require a lot of maintenance. Maybe aim for something shorter than whatever you have now.

Is there a chance it's also something to do with the way your dress? If you're wearing clothing that doesn't fit properly (i.e. really baggy or really tight/short) or your clothes are rumpled or dirty, that doesn't give a good first impression, and people will make assumptions. You don't need to spend more money on clothes, but try to buy things that fit properly and are decent quality (i.e. they aren't going to fall apart or start fraying right away). I shop at secondhand and consignment stores a lot and I manage to find clothes that I definitely wouldn't be able to afford on a college student's budget otherwise.

I also think you should find a therapist or counselor, like others have suggested. I see a therapist weekly and I think a lot of people here would probably benefit from having a professional to speak to and get feedback from regularly. You're lucky, because you're still in school, right? So you're probably eligible for some kind of free or discounted counseling through your university.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

gnomealone said:


> forget the girl for a second. ....
> 
> If you are having upsetting public meltdowns because people are thinking
> you're homeless consider changing your appearance i.e. haircut or whatever
> ...


So how do you know she isn't interested? Is it because the fact that some people think I am homeless (even though those people aren't her) implies that I look so dislikable that nobody in the world can ever be interested and thats why, if I mention any girl what so ever then (insert the girl here) isn't interested, by default? Is that your reasoning?

That is actually a serious question. I mean, when I mention my ex-s I notice that people ignore it/ change the subject, which makes me think they think those are imaginary girlfriends. They didn't confront me with that so I could be wrong but it seems that way. One thing I do know is that there was that one girl from church to whom I mentioned one of my ex-s on facebook and she said "wait a second, so you had a girlfriend?!" then when I asked her why she thinks I am undatable she actually admitted that she didn't know I could like anyone that way; then when I asked why not, she said "well you never talked about her" and I was like "of course I didn't, she was from over 2 years before I came to that church, why would I" and then she totally evaded answering my question why, between the two options of (a) I had girlfriend a long time before I joined church and (b) I never had a girlfriend in my entire life, she just assumed its (b) and not just assumed but was totally surprised when I told her its (a). She never really answered that question other than telling me that she stands corrected and when I asked her will I die single and childless she said she has no idea and I was like see, thats what I am talking about, and she was like no the only reason I said I don't know is I don't know about anyone.

Anyway, back to the question I was asking. So like I mentioned I had 3 ex-s (one lasted 8 months the other two lasted two years each). But you see I am 37 years old and I had only 3 exes in my entire life, so thats pretty little. But from the statistical point of view it makes sense. The people's opinion of me are distributted on bell curve. So in my case the bell curve is centered around a really negative opinion, but it has some tails on both sides, so the people that come from the "good" tail are those few people that were willing to date me. So then how do you know the waitress in Applebees isn't one of those people? Are you saying that the bell curve is so far to the negative that the tail would constitute one person in a thousand years, and the fact that I had three girlfriends simply indicates that bell curve shifted further negative to what it used to be? I mean, its possible: yes I was disliked and ostracized all my life, but the whole thing of people thinking I am homeless is only something that started happening past few years. So perhaps looking older is what contributes? So are you basically telling me that in the past when I looked younger and people didn't think I was homeless, back then I could have a couple of girlfriends when I was really super-lucky; but as of now I am doomed to stay forever single?


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## gnomealone (Feb 3, 2013)

Man, this is why I rarely post .....

causalset,

I have no idea if this woman is attracted to you or not, but from your posts
in this thread you sound a bit desperate. and unhappy. I'm right there with you brother. but being unhappy and desperate is a really lousy time to get involved with someone so I think you should choose to not pursue her as i will choose to not pursue anyone until i feel better about myself. That's all I was trying to say. and you could still drop in to applebees every once in awhile to
say hello and just hang where you know there are at least 2 kind people.
good luck


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

gnomealone said:


> Man, this is why I rarely post .....
> 
> causalset,
> 
> ...


The idea that if you are desperate you shouldn't get into relationship is one of the things that been puzzling me for a very long time and it just makes no sense. I mean, its like saying "if you are hungry you shouldn't eat until you learn to be happy without food" or "if you are jobless you should turn down job offers until you learn to be happy without job", and so forth. Don't get me wrong, I am not equating relationsihp to food or job: I know it has love component. But the saying that "you can't love someone else unless you learn to love yourself" just makes no sense. I mean, if you are very lonely and desperate, wouldn't you be in love THAT MUCH MORE with someone who solved your whole desperation issue?! Why is the common advice being just the opposite then?

I guess if I try and speculate as to what your reasoning might have been (which is nothing mroe than speculation since quite frankly I am at loss) then perhaps you are thinking that if I enter into a relationship in a desperate state of mind I might make some relationship mistakes such as being too clingy, or getting into a relationship with a wrong person just to be in a relationship, and so forth. But by the same reasoning, if after being jobless you get a well paying job you might make some mistakes too, such as engage into excessive spending and end up bankrupt. But you aren't telling people "please turn down your job offer so that you don't engage in excessive spending". Yes you might do it in some specific situation, when you are dealing with someone who has that particular issue, but that won't be a universal advice. Yes you can warn person about not engaging in excessive spending, but its up to the person whether they can "trust themselves" with the well paying job (in fact in most cases they do as evident from the fact that in most cases you would congratulate them rather than tell them to turn down job offer). Similarly, you can warn me against being too clingy, but then its up to me whehter I cna trust myself with getting into relationship without being too clingy. And yes I know I been too clingy in the past (which is part of why I am single: I pushed girls away by being clingy) but the real question is: which is easier: to enter the relatinoship and not be clingy, or to stay single and learn to be happy? I would say the former is a lot easier than the latter. No I didn't do the former properly in the past (and I cna't change the past) but fact remains it is easier than the other alternative. So why not start a relatinoship and make it a point to not be clingy? Why force myself to be single instead? Especially since being single there is no way my desperation would stop, but if I am in a relationsihp I can easily see how it would, if I am careful enough not to abuse it.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

Stop posting, start living.

Ask a chick out today.

End thread.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> Stop posting, start living.
> 
> Ask a chick out today.
> 
> ...


The issue is not that I live in my head to much; the issues is that I am too scared of coming across as awkward, particularly in the eyes of whomever I would ask to call that particular waitress, and I want to find the way to do it without looking bad.

By the way don't you find it ironic that the advice I am getting falls along two opposite extremes. On one extreme there are people such as yourself that are telling me to overcome ALL fears and just do it, and on the other hand there are people such as @gnomealone who are telling me to turn down the relationship even if it was presented to me on the golden platter; yet nobody ever takes any in-between position. And I thought they were telling me people with Asperger are the ones thinking in black and white terms? Somehow my experience tells me just the opposite.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

causalset said:


> The issue is not that I live in my head to much; the issues is that I am too scared of coming across as awkward, particularly in the eyes of whomever I would ask to call that particular waitress, and I want to find the way to do it without looking bad.


This issue is that you know all the factors standing in your way...and the issue is that despite a ton of effort to provide advice from many well meaning and compassionate SASers, you're not willing to actually carry any of it out because you've convinced yourself that failure is the ONLY outcome despite admitting that you've had past relationships.

You can't win if you don't play...and you're going to win some and you're going to lose some. Life is pleasure...life is pain. Yin/Yang, Good/Evil, balance of all things, yada yada yada.

So...be more conforming...take care of your appearance...take care of your hygiene...get to a therapist ASAP to address your anger management/outbursts. And like here, stop turning each social interaction into some massive intellectual interaction that simply exhausts whomever you're interacting with.

You're welcome to be apart of society in anyway you wish, but you can't demand positive acceptance. Sorry.

Peace.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> The issue is not that I live in my head to much;
> 
> On one extreme there are people such as yourself that are telling me to overcome ALL fears and just do it, .


Er...you live in your head waayyyy too much.

There's only so much you can discuss things, without actual practice. It's like trying to learn golf or tennis by reading every book out there without ever going to the course or court for a round of play and then wondering why your game sucks.

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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

*Update* So today I came to Applebees. Since the two times I talked to that waitress it was both evening, I timed my coming so that I came around 6 PM or so, and then I studied there till 1:30 AM, they close at 1 AM, and I didn't have watch with me, but they let me stay past the time they close since they know me (thats what one of the waitresses -- the one thats much older -- told me).

In any case, first couple of hours I was there nobody was really talking to me. Then after that one of the waitresses talked to me for like half an hour or so, and no that wasn't the waitress I was looking for: I asked for her name at the end and the name was different from the one I want. Besides, at some place during the conversation she mentioned her fiance (I think we talked about table games and she said her fiance liked a certain game or something like that). Obviously, that is irrelevent since she isn't the waitress in question. But the point is: if a waitress with fiance can talk to me for half an hour, then obviously the other waitress talking to me for only 10 minutes won't mean much. But, on the other hand, the waitress with fiance didn't hold my hand, while the other one did, so I can't ignore that part either.

Anyway, probably after they were closed (when I didn't know they were closed since I didn't have watch) the waitress that I am interested in came and talked to me. She started the conversation from apologizing for not seeing me and saying that if she were to see me she would have come talk to me. Now I didn't ask for any explanation or apology, so the fact that she volunteered it seems to be a good sign. But you see, like I said earlier, I don't remember how she looks like. What she said made me feel almost positive it was her, but I wasn't entirely sure. So I would have asked her what her name was, but what stopped me from doing it is past experience with other people: each time I ask people who they are they typically end the conversation. So I tried to read her name tag, but I couldn't because I have -2.5 vision and don't wear glasses since I am trying to train my eyes (as a matter of fact I don't even have glasses to begin with, so like on lectures I manage to read blackboard by sitting in front row, squinting, guessing, taking other students notes, using textbooks, etc). In any case, the other inconvenience was that the name tag that she has is right over her breasts so that when I was trying to read her name tag it looked like I was staring at her breasts, but she pretended not to notice it, I mean she just kept talking to me as normal without looking weird or anything. But after a minute of staring I finally decided "okay I better stop before I put her off, so how about I will just ask for her name at the very end of our conversation when she will be leaving anyway, and until then I will just live with not knowing for sure who she is". Anyway, the conversation lasted probably another 5 minutes or so -- and I wasn't staring at her name tag any more -- so there is no obvious sign that it contributted since its not like she talked for that long the previous times. But this time she was not holding my hand up until she was about to leave in order to do some wrap-up tasks when Applebees are closing. So, as I planned, shortly before she left I asked her what her name was, and then the conversation went like this:

Me: By the way whats your name again?
Her: My name is (.....) we talk all the time (this confirmed this was her)
Me: Yes I remember you. I just am not very good at remembering faces so if it ever looks like I am ignoring you thats because I don't remember your face, but I will remember it eventually it will just take a while.
Her: Its okay. I also don't remember your name. Is your name (.....)?
Me: No, my name is (.....)
Her: Oh year, now I remember you. I knew it was one of those two names but I weren't sure which one (actually, my name is a Russian name while the name she mistaken it with is an American name so I am not sure how she would think it is "one of those two names" unless she somehow happened to be very familiar with Russian names, especially since those two names didn't even sound alike at all; but I guess it doesn't really matter -- although I sort of suspect that might be the other guy she is flirting with, but obviously I am not at a point where I would feel jealous)
Me: By the way do you want to exchange phone numbers?
Her: Hmm (and some few second pouses) yeah I suppose you could give me yours
Me: (tearing a napkin and writing a phone number and giving it to her)
Her: Okay talk to you the next time you are here
Me: Goodnight

Then I studied for another 10 or 15 minute, and then some older waitress came and asked me if I don't mind her taking away salt or pepper from my table or something of that sort (don't remember any more) then I asked her whether they are clothing, and she told me they are closed an hour ago, but I am welcome to stay until that older waitress will be all by herself at which point she would have to ask me to leave for safety purposes, but she said it won't happen for a while (note: older waitress is NOT any of the other ones: the other waitresses I talked about were all young). So in any case I studied for another 10 minutes and then I left. As I was leaving I heard oen of the girl saying "goodnight be safe" I said "goodnight" and then I heard the voices of three girls simultaneously saying "goodnight" (all three voices were younger voices).

Anyway, I guess the fact that when I asked her "do you want to exchange phone numbers" she made a long pause and then had me give her my number without giving me her seem to indicate she doesn't want to talk on the phone and simply didn't want to be rude and telling me not to give her a number so she found a way to turn me down nicely without being rude. The other indication of this is "see you next time you come": does it implicitly say "talk to you here _as opposed to[/b] by phone"? Obviously she didn't say the second part, but does it sort of imply that? But, if so, then what about her holding my hand a week ago? Do you think a week ago she was interested and then she lost interest because I didn't reciprocate it right away? Or what do you think?_


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

I think you need to stop thinking.

If you are interested in her you should have just asked her out then and there. You had plenty of time. Asking to exchange numbers isn't necessary in that situation.

Yes, she probably lost interest. I doubt she is going to call.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> I think you need to stop thinking.
> 
> If you are interested in her you should have just asked her out then and there. You had plenty of time. Asking to exchange numbers isn't necessary in that situation.
> 
> ...


And why is the timing so important? Is it a running competition or something? I just think its so unfair that dating decision is based on how fast does someone run.

Or are you saying she lost interest because she thinks *I* am disinterested? Well if I was truly disinterested, why did I want to exchange numbers eventually? Does she think I have multiple personalities or something?


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> And why is the timing so important? Is it a running competition or something? I just think its so unfair that dating decision is based on how fast does someone run.
> 
> Or are you saying she lost interest because she thinks *I* am disinterested? Well if I was truly disinterested, why did I want to exchange numbers eventually? Does she think I have multiple personalities or something?


This is what SofaKing posted:

"the factors standing in your way...and the issue is that despite a ton of effort to provide advice from many well meaning and compassionate SASers, you're not willing to actually carry any of it out...

You can't win if you don't play...

...stop turning each social interaction into some massive intellectual interaction that simply exhausts whomever you're interacting with."

Which is exactly what you are doing right now.

You just asked a bunch of questions about what her intentions might be - if you had simply asked her out, you might know that by now?

What's unfair about it? If you like her, what, exactly, is taking you so long? You go on a date, you'll either like her and decide to continue, or not. You have time to sit in Applebee's for 7 hours, but can't make a simple decision to ask her out and complain that it's too fast for you?

She lost interest because you drag everything out. Like now.

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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> This is what SofaKing posted:
> 
> "the factors standing in your way...and the issue is that despite a ton of effort to provide advice from many well meaning and compassionate SASers, you're not willing to actually carry any of it out...
> 
> ...


Well she obviously doesn't see my posts, so are you saying she was able to INFER I was thinking all those thoughts?

As far as why I didn't ask her out despite being interested, the answer is obvious: I was too scared of coming across as awkward or for the idea sounding weird on her end, etc. So its not like I don't have time to make simple sentence. Obviously I have time. I just don't have courage. And lack of courage doesn't imply lack of interest on my end.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> Well she obviously doesn't see my posts, so are you saying she was able to INFER I was thinking all those thoughts?
> 
> As far as why I didn't ask her out despite being interested, the answer is obvious: I was too scared of coming across as awkward or for the idea sounding weird on her end, etc. So its not like I don't have time to make simple sentence. Obviously I have time. I just don't have courage. And lack of courage doesn't imply lack of interest on my end.


Paragraph 1: stop turning this into a massive intellectual exercise.

Then at least don't say it's "unfair that it's a running competition", as if the outside world is to blame. Just admit the truth - you don't have the courage to ask. Yes, we all fear rejection, but you can either ask her and risk appearing awkward, or spend hours on here analyzing something you'll never get an answer to unless you do the one simple thing that will give you that answer. And if you come across as awkward, so what? Learn from the experience and move on. It's all you can do, and at least you gave it a shot.

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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> Paragraph 1: stop turning this into a massive intellectual exercise.
> 
> Then at least don't say it's "unfair that it's a running competition", as if the outside world is to blame. Just admit the truth - you don't have the courage to ask. Yes, we all fear rejection, but you can either ask her and risk appearing awkward, or spend hours on here analyzing something you'll never get an answer to unless you do the one simple thing that will give you that answer. And if you come across as awkward, so what? Learn from the experience and move on. It's all you can do, and at least you gave it a shot.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As far as admitting the truth that I feel awkward, I was admitting it all along -- that was the context of this entire post (and many others). This however doesn't change the fact that outside world is unfair. The truth is that I am interested I just fear rejection, but outside world labels me as disinterested.

And are you telling me to ask her out now -- even though you told me yourself she lost interest?! Obviously asking out after she lost interest thats just asking for pain. So can you give me suggestions on what to do to get myself to a better place with her before I ask her out?


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

causalset said:


> Anyway, I guess the fact that when I asked her "do you want to exchange phone numbers" she made a long pause and then had me give her my number without giving me her seem to indicate she doesn't want to talk on the phone and simply didn't want to be rude and telling me not to give her a number so she found a way to turn me down nicely without being rude.


Yeah, she turned you down nicely - I`ve used this ploy several times with women who were not up to scratch.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> As far as admitting the truth that I feel awkward, I was admitting it all along -- that was the context of this entire post (and many others). This however doesn't change the fact that outside world is unfair. The truth is that I am interested I just fear rejection, but outside world labels me as disinterested.
> 
> And are you telling me to ask her out now -- even though you told me yourself she lost interest?! Obviously asking out after she lost interest thats just asking for pain. So can you give me suggestions on what to do to get myself to a better place with her before I ask her out?


The fact you can't communicate your desires to the outside world isn't the outside world's fault. You cannot label the world unfair because of that, it's not going to read your mind.

You're making it too complicated again. Either just ask her, or write the experience off and look for someone else. Forget this "better place" stuff - just an excuse to put it off once more. Make a decision and take action for once instead of dragging this out. She's only going to say yes or no - and then you still have to go from there.

Look, the time for questions is over. Just make a decision on this one way or the other.

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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> The fact you can't communicate your desires to the outside world isn't the outside world's fault. You cannot label the world unfair because of that, it's not going to read your mind.


Its not about "not reading my mind". I can give you examples of other girls (not her; I am talking about girls from a long time ago) who came to the conclusion that I am incapable of love or whatever, and then I started arguing with them that yes I am capable of love I just didn't have guts to express it, but it seems like they didn't believe me. So its not about "not reading my mind" since I was basically "telling" them what I felt, I was just telling them too late.

Anyway, those other girls were online, I doubt I would be arguing with face to face girl. But here is a question: the fact that I said we should exchange numbers, wasn't it a sufficient indication of my interest? So that means that she "heard" I was interested (from the phone number comment) she just didn't believe me (like other girls didn't). Thats also why I feel its inappropriate to ask anything further if she already turned "that" down. Or are you saying that the phone number comment wasn't clear enough?


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## Gloaming (Aug 1, 2017)

causalset said:


> But here is a question: the fact that I said we should exchange numbers, wasn't it a sufficient indication of my interest? So that means that she "heard" I was interested (from the phone number comment) she just didn't believe me (like other girls didn't). Thats also why I feel its inappropriate to ask anything further if she already turned "that" down. Or are you saying that the phone number comment wasn't clear enough?


There's a third option here: they understand you're interested, but they've decided they aren't interested enough to continue the conversation or give out their number.

Judging by your comments about how people assume you're homeless sometimes, I'm going to guess that you aren't entirely aware of how you're coming across to others. That probably isn't really something strangers on an online forum can help you with. No one can make you change, and you shouldn't have to if you're comfortable as is, but you have to understand that clearly, whatever you're doing right now is unappealing (or at least sending the wrong message) to the people you seem to be interested in. If you want to be more appealing, that will involve changing some aspects of how you interact with people and probably how you present yourself.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> Its not about "not reading my mind". I can give you examples of other girls (not her; I am talking about girls from a long time ago) who came to the conclusion that I am incapable of love or whatever, and then I started arguing with them that yes I am capable of love I just didn't have guts to express it, but it seems like they didn't believe me. So its not about "not reading my mind" since I was basically "telling" them what I felt, I was just telling them too late.
> 
> Anyway, those other girls were online, I doubt I would be arguing with face to face girl. But here is a question: the fact that I said we should exchange numbers, wasn't it a sufficient indication of my interest? So that means that she "heard" I was interested (from the phone number comment) she just didn't believe me (like other girls didn't). Thats also why I feel its inappropriate to ask anything further if she already turned "that" down. Or are you saying that the phone number comment wasn't clear enough?


If you can't express it, you can't expect people to believe you are capable of it. "I'm capable of kicking a 50-yard field goal - but I can't".

I said make a decision one way or the other. If you feel the right way is not to ask, then don't. End of.

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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

Gloaming said:


> There's a third option here: they understand you're interested, but they've decided they aren't interested enough to continue the conversation or give out their number.
> 
> Judging by your comments about how people assume you're homeless sometimes, I'm going to guess that you aren't entirely aware of how you're coming across to others. That probably isn't really something strangers on an online forum can help you with. No one can make you change, and you shouldn't have to if you're comfortable as is, but you have to understand that clearly, whatever you're doing right now is unappealing (or at least sending the wrong message) to the people you seem to be interested in. If you want to be more appealing, that will involve changing some aspects of how you interact with people and probably how you present yourself.


This times a thousand. Causalset also needs once a week therapy, big time.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Gloaming said:


> Do people think you're homeless a lot? Maybe take a step back from the whole waitress problem and focus on that.


Yes and its worse than before. I mean, as far as people telling me I don't take a shower and that I am dirty, thats been the case ever since I was 21; and, likewise, I was ostracised ever since I was 21 as well (perhaps its because I moved away from home at 21, so perhaps my mom was making sure I look presentable while I was still staying with her). However, the whole homeless problem started when I was 34 (and I am 37 right now). I don't know if its looking older that contributes to coming acoross as homeless, or its because I live in different states from the states I used to live before, and there are more homeless people, or perhaps the time has changed.



Gloaming said:


> Is there a chance it's also something to do with the way your dress? If you're wearing clothing that doesn't fit properly (i.e. really baggy or really tight/short) or your clothes are rumpled or dirty, that doesn't give a good first impression, and people will make assumptions.


I guess some of my clothes fit okay and other ones don't. I wear both kinds because sometimes I don't have time for the loundary so I assume its better to wear something that doesn't fit properly but clean rather than something that fits properly but dirty. Incidentally, loundary is a vicious cycle right there. When I moved to the dorm the very first time and tried to do loundary, the students complained to security that I look homeless, and I noticed dirty looks from them when I go to the loundary so that kind of deters me from using it too often. I do use it from time to time, I just quickly stick my stuff into washing machine and go back to my room. But I guess I might be using it every other week rather than every week.

As far as wrinkled clothes, yes they are: I don't have an iron nor do I know where to buy it or how to use it. So that might be one issue.



Gloaming said:


> You don't need to spend more money on clothes, but try to buy things that fit properly and are decent quality (i.e. they aren't going to fall apart or start fraying right away). I shop at secondhand and consignment stores a lot and I manage to find clothes that I definitely wouldn't be able to afford on a college student's budget otherwise.


Yes that sounds like good idea, I will try to find second hand store.



Gloaming said:


> I also think you should find a therapist or counselor, like others have suggested. I see a therapist weekly and I think a lot of people here would probably benefit from having a professional to speak to and get feedback from regularly. You're lucky, because you're still in school, right? So you're probably eligible for some kind of free or discounted counseling through your university.


I do have a therapist here on campus, and like you said its free because I am a student. I don't think its helping though. But perhaps part of it is my fault: I mean we only have an hour and oftentimes I fill an hour with the types of questions I am asking here. Perhaps what I need is some sort of training on how to control my voice and that type of thing (one feedback I got both from my current and one of the former therapists as well as a couple of other people is that I speak loud and fast).


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> Yes and its worse than before. I mean, as far as people telling me I don't take a shower and that I am dirty...
> 
> I guess some of my clothes fit okay and other ones don't. I wear both kinds because sometimes I don't have time for the loundary so I assume its better to wear something that doesn't fit properly but clean rather than something that fits properly but dirty...But I guess I might be using it every other week rather than every week.
> 
> Perhaps what I need is some sort of training on how to control my voice and that type of thing (one feedback I got both from my current and one of the former therapists as well as a couple of other people is that I speak loud and fast).


Showers - ok how often? Truth now.

Clothes are changed how often?

No time for laundry - but you can sit in Applebee's for 7 hours? I think you also mentioned before you have or had no time to shower. You need to make time for this every single day.

Voice training - very important, extremely underrated aspect of personal development. Not just in terms of speed and loudness, but resonance, articulation, and harshness. Have you ever recorded yourself and listened to the playback?

You don't like the word a, eh?

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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> Showers - ok how often? Truth now.


Best case scenario: every day. Worst case scenario: once a week. Now, in that incident with the bus driver (see here: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f35/who-is-delusional-here-2013945/ ) I didn't take the shower that day, but I took a shower either the previous day or the day before the previous one -- I don't remember which one. I am leaning to thinking I didn't take shower the previous day either but I took it the day before the previous. But I don't notice that just a couple of days without shower would make me THAT dirty, I mean its not so super hot. Thats why I am thinking maybe other things about me make me look messy such as the fact that my hair is messy and I don't shave. However, even though 90% of the time my hair is messy, the past couple of months is an exception since I got a short haircut after bus driver incident.

By the way please don't confuse the bus driver incident with the incident in front of Applebees: they were separated by a couple of weeks. Few days after bus driver incident I got a hair cut, so messy hair was no longer a factor in front of Applebees. Now, the person that thought I was homeless in front of Applebees told me that I had a big backpack, I was walking really slowly staring into space, and my hands were folded as if I was cold. In reality, the reason I had a big backpack is that I had a bunch of textbooks there, the reason I was staring into space with my hands folded is that I was thinking about physics. But she interpretted those things differently. The discussion about it with her didn't last long because I started screaming at her cussing and she got scared of me and told me to stay away from her. Thats why I walked into Applebees and talked to those people over there instead where I told them what happened in front of Applebees, ased them if they heard any screaming, and they said no. Incidentally I also talked to them about what happened a couple of weeks prior to that with the bus driver.



caveman8 said:


> Clothes are changed how often?


Every day, unless I ran out of clothes because I didn't do loundary, in which case I would circulate them, as in put the ones I wore few days ago rather than yesterday.



caveman8 said:


> No time for laundry - but you can sit in Applebee's for 7 hours?


The point is that I don't just sit there, I study. In fact I prefer to study at the restaurants since I don't want to be disracted by the internet (and now that I have internet on my new cell phone, I purposely leave my cell phone at home). So there were lots of restaurants where I was studying for over 7 hours, and in most of them it had nothing to do with any waitresses (except for Applebees of course).



caveman8 said:


> I think you also mentioned before you have or had no time to shower. You need to make time for this every single day.


I did this summer. I guess it gets harder when I get busy with classes, study late at night, and then have to jump out of bed early in the morning for the morning classes (and I am not an early person). But I guess I need to get myself better organized anyway: last semester I was falling asleep in all of my classes which isn't good either (I still have 3.82 GPA but that was produced through falling asleep in classes and then catching up in the middle of the night).



caveman8 said:


> Voice training - very important, extremely underrated aspect of personal development. Not just in terms of speed and loudness, but resonance, articulation, and harshness. Have you ever recorded yourself and listened to the playback?


Yes and it strikes me as very monotone. I am not sure what to do about it though.



caveman8 said:


> You don't like the word a, eh?


Are you saying that if I were to use those words more it would help me?


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> Best case scenario: every day. Worst case scenario: once a week. Now, in that incident with the bus driver (see here: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f35/who-is-delusional-here-2013945/ ) I didn't take the shower that day, but I took a shower either the previous day or the day before the previous one -- I don't remember which one. I am leaning to thinking I didn't take shower the previous day either but I took it the day before the previous. But I don't notice that just a couple of days without shower would make me THAT dirty, I mean its not so super hot. I she interpretted those things differently.
> 
> Every day, unless I ran out of clothes because I didn't do loundary, in which case I would circulate them, as in put the ones I wore few days ago rather than yesterday.
> 
> ...


I think Albuquerque in June would be hot enough to warrant a shower every day. I know you study, but 15 minutes to shower at least once a day is completely doable for anyone, and anything else is just being lazy. Do you ever just feel like you need a shower?

Voice - I guess you could practice speaking, record it, listen and modify as needed.

No it wouldn't help you. But you should write properly when it counts.

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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

(Waits for the long response citing all the reasons he can't change, won't change, or why the world should accept him without change. Lather, rinse, repeat)


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

SofaKing said:


> (Waits for the long response citing all the reasons he can't change, won't change, or why the world should accept him without change. Lather, rinse, repeat)


Hehe...has no time for a shower...plenty of time to post...

Need to ask him...brush teeth how often?

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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

SofaKing said:


> (Waits for the long response citing all the reasons he can't change, won't change, or why the world should accept him without change. Lather, rinse, repeat)


Actually its the opposite: I am pissed at the fact that others keep assuming I won't change instead of giving me an opportunity to change. For example, when I promise to change to the girls that don't want to date me (no I dind't have that converation with the waitress; I am referring to other girls I talked to on dating sites and so forth) they are brushing me off with "no you don't have to change you have to be who you are". I don't remember exactly what it was I was promising to change, whether it was shower or not talking about ex-s or what, but whatever it was, it was really basic. So why are they telling me not to change something basic and face ostracism for the rest of my life all in the name of being who I am? Its ridiculous.

Now when I complain about it to people OTHER THAN the girls in question, one response I am often getting is "they aren't stoppng you from changing; just go and change instead of talking about it". But I guess what I am saying is that I don't have a lot of outside encouragement to change. I mean, lets say I did horribly in the homework for one of the courses I am taking. If I change my study habbits, I would do better on the next homework for that same course, so who konws I might even get a good grade at the end. But that doesn't work socially that way: once the people in question have their mind made up they aren't likely to change their mind; I basically have to look for a different audience once I change. But why is that? Why wouldn't the old audience believe me that I can change? And also an old audience might be, for example, people in math department. So people in math department already know I am a slob, so when I change the purpose is to socialize with someone else outside the departmen, whicle I would prefer to get the second chance inside the department. See what I mean?

Okay let me give you an example from the past when I DID make a change, and show you why is that I made that particular change as opposed to other changes. So like I mention, I have a habbit of studying in restaurants for several hours and, coupled with the fact that I study at night sometimes, I fall asleep during the day, so sometimes I sleep in the restaurants I am studying at. Over 10 years ago, they were stopping me from sleeping. So after they stopped me 3 or 4 times in a row -- at a different restaurants each time -- I learned that I shouldn't sleep in the restaurnats, so I no longer was sleeping, problem solved. Yes, I was asking people questions about the logic behind that rule, but that was just curiousity; I wasn't pissed or anything since that "problem" was no longer my problem: I was no longer sleeping. Then after I defended my first Ph.D. I went to India for 5 years to do postdocs. Over there I tried sleeping in the restaurants again since its a third world country so who knows maybe they look at it different. Lo and behold, they let me sleep there without any problem. After returning back to the US, I continued that habbit of sleeping in restaurants, and for some weird reason, they were no longer stopping me from sleeping; I don't know if its because I was in a different states than before (they were stopping me from sleeping in the northern states and now I am in the southern states) or whether the time has changed, or whether I look older and they are more likely to say anything to younger looking person. But for some reason or other they aren't stopping me from sleeping. But then, while 95% of the time I sleep I get away with it, there are those 5% that they decide I am homeless based off of the fact that I sleep, and I get pissed off. But you see how I was NOT pissed off over 10 years ago when 100% of the time I sleep they were to tell me "we have no sleeping policty"AS OPPOSED TO right now when they no longer have any policy but simply decide I am homeless 5% of the time. And that applies to other things too. If they were to have "cleanliness policy" so that instead of bus driver thinkin I am homeless he were to tell me "we have cleanlines policy so you have to take a shower in order to be allowed on a bus" AND if it was consistent so that I would know that it is in fact a policy as opposed to somoene judging me personally, then I would start taking a shower. But, as it stands, nobody ever told me about any cleanliness policy, they just make assumptions.

And to make it worse, in the restaurants when I stopped sleeping, the problem was solved. But when I start taking showers the problem doesn't get solved: people still don't talk to me. As other responders said I simply look "Unappealing". But what am I supposed to do about "looking unappealing"? I am told go get therapy. So I go get therapy, but that still doesn't help. Note how that is a lot more difficult than when doing something concrete (such as not sleeping) actually solves the problem, as opposed to it being just an example of one of the thousands other things I have to do. And also, not sleeping in a restaurant is a lot easier than changing my tone of voice or whtaever. I am not saying I don't want to change: I learned to do things that are hard. For example learning physics is hard. Going to the gym and learning to run is hard. But you see I am not being ostracised for not having learned physics, or not having reached certain milestonse at a gym. I wish I wasn't ostracised for my voice either because it is equally hard: when one of my past therapists told me to speak slowly and was like "no its not slow enough lets speek more slowly" I notice that my tongue physically gets tired when I speak slowly. So speaking slowly IS very similar to going to the gym as far as I am concerned. I have nothing against gym so I don't have anything against the tongue exercises either. But I wish I wasn't ostracized for not having had accomplished certain milestones just yet.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> Hehe...has no time for a shower...plenty of time to post...
> 
> Need to ask him...brush teeth how often?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I happened to have brushed my teeth this morning since I felt a plugue in my mouth. But, up until this morning, I werne't burshing teeth for months on end.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

causalset said:


> Actually its the opposite: I am pissed at the fact that others keep assuming I won't change instead of giving me an opportunity to change. For example, when I promise to change to the girls that don't want to date me (no I dind't have that converation with the waitress; I am referring to other girls I talked to on dating sites and so forth) they are brushing me off with "no you don't have to change you have to be who you are". I don't remember exactly what it was I was promising to change, whether it was shower or not talking about ex-s or what, but whatever it was, it was really basic. So why are they telling me not to change something basic and face ostracism for the rest of my life all in the name of being who I am? Its ridiculous.
> 
> Now when I complain about it to people OTHER THAN the girls in question, one response I am often getting is "they aren't stoppng you from changing; just go and change instead of talking about it". But I guess what I am saying is that I don't have a lot of outside encouragement to change. I mean, lets say I did horribly in the homework for one of the courses I am taking. If I change my study habbits, I would do better on the next homework for that same course, so who konws I might even get a good grade at the end. But that doesn't work socially that way: once the people in question have their mind made up they aren't likely to change their mind; I basically have to look for a different audience once I change. But why is that? Why wouldn't the old audience believe me that I can change? And also an old audience might be, for example, people in math department. So people in math department already know I am a slob, so when I change the purpose is to socialize with someone else outside the departmen, whicle I would prefer to get the second chance inside the department. See what I mean?
> 
> ...


Didn't read.

You only talk and explain, you don't act.

The time for talk is over.

Do or do not.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> I happened to have brushed my teeth this morning since I felt a plugue in my mouth. But, up until this morning, I werne't burshing teeth for months on end.


What...the...

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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

SofaKing said:


> (Waits for the long response citing all the reasons he can't change, won't change, or why the world should accept him without change. Lather, rinse, repeat)


Bingo!

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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

caveman8 said:


> What...the...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





caveman8 said:


> Bingo!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Surreal, isn't it?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

SofaKing said:


> Didn't read.
> 
> You only talk and explain, you don't act.
> 
> ...


Okay here are my actions:

This summer I was taking shower every day. So I have to keep it up and not take it less once the courses start.

I am going to therapy once a week.

I brushed my teeth yesterday, so will try to keep brushing every day (like right now I just woke up will go ahead and brush my teeth).

Obviously I don't have a girlfriend so far. What else should I do?


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

causalset said:


> Okay here are my actions:
> 
> This summer I was taking shower every day. So I have to keep it up and not take it less once the courses start.
> 
> ...


You're trolling me now.

You keep it up. You apply what you learn in therapy.

And you stop obsessing over it.

And maybe...someone will see you differently.


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## Marko3 (Mar 18, 2014)

had to google what applebee was and then I found this:

https://qz.com/1055063/applebees-is-closing-restaurants-after-it-failed-to-attract-millennials/


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

caveman8 said:


> What...the...


Good lord, no wonder he's not getting any making out action.



causalset said:


> For example, when I promise to change to the girls that don't want to date me (no I dind't have that converation with the waitress; I am referring to other girls I talked to on dating sites and so forth) they are brushing me off with "no you don't have to change you have to be who you are". I don't remember exactly what it was I was promising to change, whether it was shower or not talking about ex-s or what, but whatever it was, it was really basic. So why are they telling me not to change something basic and face ostracism for the rest of my life all in the name of being who I am? Its ridiculous.


First, when people tell you to not change who you are, they are referring to what you are passionate about, like a particular hobby or career path. As in don't become a garbage man if your real interest is physics. Second, at no time in the history of everything has a man been able to make a woman feel attracted to him using words. It is not possible to negotiate desire with words. Talk is cheap. Actions and tangible results matter. A man must be/do stuff in order to attract someone.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

caveman8 said:


> No it wouldn't help you. But you should write properly when it counts.


Tbf, 'a' is one word that many non-native speakers drop when speaking English. Because many other languages won't say 'a [something]', so they translate it verbatim from their original language.

(I'm just assuming that's what you meant btw. I may be wrong)


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

TheWelshOne said:


> Tbf, 'a' is one word that many non-native speakers drop when speaking English. Because many other languages won't say 'a [something]', so they translate it verbatim from their original language.
> 
> (I'm just assuming that's what you meant btw. I may be wrong)


Exactly. I am a Russian speaker, and in Russian they don't have articles.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Qolselanu said:


> First, when people tell you to not change who you are, they are referring to what you are passionate about, like a particular hobby or career path. As in don't become a garbage man if your real interest is physics.


But I never told anybody I would change career path; as a matter of fact I am quite adamant about sticking with physics no matter what. So obviously they must have been referring to something else when they were telling me to be who I am, unless they misunderstood what I meant.



Qolselanu said:


> Second, at no time in the history of everything has a man been able to make a woman feel attracted to him using words. It is not possible to negotiate desire with words. Talk is cheap. Actions and tangible results matter. A man must be/do stuff in order to attract someone.


Yeah but then why don't they tell me to first do what I say I will do and then they will re-evaluate things after I do it? Why do they act like they made a final decision no matter how my actions might change?


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

TheWelshOne said:


> Tbf, 'a' is one word that many non-native speakers drop when speaking English. Because many other languages won't say 'a [something]', so they translate it verbatim from their original language.
> 
> (I'm just assuming that's what you meant btw. I may be wrong)


I know that, but he's fluent.

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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

caveman8 said:


> I know that, but he's fluent.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Eh, fluent means well enough to be understood. He uses all his words correctly, some that even I don't use. I wouldn't sweat something as small as missing an 'a' every so often.


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

causalset said:


> Yeah but then why don't they tell me to first do what I say I will do and then they will re-evaluate things after I do it? Why do they act like they made a final decision no matter how my actions might change?


This would take months of the person in question noticing your continual improvement. At the same time, it would be needy to be constantly updating them on your improvement, which would be unattractive. At which point you probably meet new people as you improve yourself.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

TheWelshOne said:


> Eh, fluent means well enough to be understood. He uses all his words correctly, some that even I don't use. I wouldn't sweat something as small as missing an 'a' every so often.


Er...look up "fluent"?

I'm not sweating anything btw.

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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

caveman8 said:


> Er...look up "fluent"?


OK.



> Fluency is basically one's *ability to be understood* by both native and non-native listeners. A higher level would be bilingual, which indicates one is capable of speaking in two languages, either having learned them simultaneously or one after the other.
> 
> In the sense of proficiency, "fluency" encompasses a number of related but separable skills:
> Reading: the ability to easily read and understand texts written in the language;
> ...


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Qolselanu said:


> This would take months of the person in question noticing your continual improvement.


So maybe thats what is unfair: that it takes months to reverse the effects of first impression that only takes seconds to make. Why can't people be more open in re-evaluating things given that there are bad days and so forth?



Qolselanu said:


> At the same time, it would be needy to be constantly updating them on your improvement, which would be unattractive. *At which point you probably meet new people as you improve yourself.*


Thats a pretty exciting revelation actually. If I knew that finding somene else would take months rather than years, then who knows maybe I won't be sweating every rejection so much. So basically others are operating within a totally different context: they have a lot of options popping up every other day while I have just one or two options a year. No wonder I swet every option a lot more than they do.

So teach me a secret: what is it I have to do in order to *know* I will find a girlfriend within few months from now?


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

TheWelshOne said:


> OK.


LOL - wrong word. Funny looking dictionary is that too 

But I guess you miss the irony of someone who has, in this thread alone, written 3,678,453 words, yet drops the shortest word in the dictionary, all the while claiming to have no time to take shower.

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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

Dup post delete





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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

causalset said:


> So maybe thats what is unfair: that it takes months to reverse the effects of first impression that only takes seconds to make. Why can't people be more open in re-evaluating things given that there are bad days and so forth?


They are forgiving when it comes to people having bad days - as in bed head, forgot to brush teeth in morning, wrinkled clothes and so on. But looking like a homeless hobo who hasn't brushed or showered in weeks or months isn't having a bad day, its a lifestyle - and will be judged more harshly.



causalset said:


> So teach me a secret: what is it I have to do in order to *know* I will find a girlfriend within few months from now?


You can't *know*. You could do everything right in the next few months and still not get a girlfriend because of your starting point so to speak. Like expecting a baby to run a marathon.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

caveman8 said:


> LOL - wrong word. Funny looking dictionary is that too


Fluency is the state of being fluent. Not sure of your problem with that. And it was lifted from Wikipedia's page on fluency, which is what you get redirected to when you search for 'fluent'.

And I guess you miss the irony of telling someone they're not fluent because they're not speaking English properly while saying 'Funny looking dictionary is that too', which is horrendous English from anyone's perspective.

I'm curious as to whether you've ever spoken to someone from outside of Canada before. There are many different patterns of speech between your country and mine, for example. In fact, Canadians omit some words in sentences that I never would - does that make me more fluent than you? We can still understand each other, can't we?


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## Gloaming (Aug 1, 2017)

causalset said:


> So maybe thats what is unfair: that it takes months to reverse the effects of first impression that only takes seconds to make. Why can't people be more open in re-evaluating things given that there are bad days and so forth?


There's a difference between having a bad day (or even a bad few days) and consistently lacking proper hygiene. Generally speaking, people aren't going to hold one bad day or even a bad first impression against you forever. However, from what you've posted on this thread alone, it doesn't sound like you're unlucky and keep meeting girls on your "bad days," it sounds like not showering and brushing your teeth daily is a normal thing for you. Smelling or having bad breath is going to leave a bad impression on most people. You have to change your habits permanently if you want people to see you differently.

For example, let's say a person consistently shows up for class/work looking and smelling nice. You see them like this a few times a week for months on end. Then, one day, they show up looking kind of rumpled and messy. People don't automatically assume, "well, I guess they're done taking care of themselves and this is how they'll look from now on," they assume this person is having a bad day-and that's generally accurate.

The opposite is true, too. If your standard for however long has been to shower less frequently than you should and not brush your teeth (?), people aren't going to believe you've changed forever after one day. This is something you have to learn and maintain. It might not get you a girlfriend, but I can promise you'll have better odds showered and with fresh breath than you would otherwise.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Gloaming said:


> There's a difference between having a bad day (or even a bad few days) and consistently lacking proper hygiene. Generally speaking, people aren't going to hold one bad day or even a bad first impression against you forever. However, from what you've posted on this thread alone, it doesn't sound like you're unlucky and keep meeting girls on your "bad days," it sounds like not showering and brushing your teeth daily is a normal thing for you. Smelling or having bad breath is going to leave a bad impression on most people. You have to change your habits permanently if you want people to see you differently.
> 
> For example, let's say a person consistently shows up for class/work looking and smelling nice. You see them like this a few times a week for months on end. Then, one day, they show up looking kind of rumpled and messy. People don't automatically assume, "well, I guess they're done taking care of themselves and this is how they'll look from now on," they assume this person is having a bad day-and that's generally accurate.
> 
> The opposite is true, too. If your standard for however long has been to shower less frequently than you should and not brush your teeth (?), people aren't going to believe you've changed forever after one day. This is something you have to learn and maintain. It might not get you a girlfriend, but I can promise you'll have better odds showered and with fresh breath than you would otherwise.


As far as "bad days" go I was actually thinking of situations when I am talking to girls on dating sites and they haven't yet seen me in person, but then I talk about ex-s too much, or complain too much, or misphrase something, and they just jump to conclusion. But could it be that those other things are also falling into the "big picture" category, such as, if I had a right mindset I wouldn't be talking about ex-s, bad day or not? Is that what you are saying?

In any case, going back to what you wrote about hygine, you actually made a really good point. But this point underscores the problem we have with society. A society places more weight on who you are as a person rather than on what you choose to do with it. Thats why they like neat person who had a bad day (aka DID something wrong) but they don't like messy person who decided not to be messy that particular day (aka did something great but oh too bad, that person is inferior, so nothing counts). The message it sends is that they aren't interested in self improvement, they are interested in the way you were born. Of course, nobody is born messy or clean; but I was born with Asperger. So could it be that they are actually geared towards avoiding people with mental conditions, and making the types of judgements you described is a way of doing it without actually being politically incorrect by discriminating against labels (which is their actual intention)? And, if so, that is what I resent the most: they are basically telling me they aren't interested in seeing me trying to self-improve; they just want me to admit that I am inferior and stick to it.

Oh by the way, I been taking shower every day this summer. Obviously most of it doesn't count since I was away visitting my mom. But I been back to campus these past couple of weeks. So being seen clean for two weeks wasn't enough. How much longer do you think it would take? Would it be months, or years or how long?


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

TheWelshOne said:


> Fluency is the state of being fluent. Not sure of your problem with that. And it was lifted from Wikipedia's page on fluency, which is what you get redirected to when you search for 'fluent'.
> 
> And I guess you miss the irony of telling someone they're not fluent because they're not speaking English properly while saying 'Funny looking dictionary is that too', which is horrendous English from anyone's perspective.
> 
> I'm curious as to whether you've ever spoken to someone from outside of Canada before. There are many different patterns of speech between your country and mine, for example. In fact, Canadians omit some words in sentences that I never would - does that make me more fluent than you? We can still understand each other, can't we?


I didn't tell anyone they aren't fluent. Where are you getting this from? I said he was fluent, and my comment on the dictionary was written in jest - as was my comment on his dropping the letter a for that matter - and wasn't intended to be grammatically correct. No irony there at all.

Noooo, I've never spoken to anyone from outside of Canada before...really?

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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> Oh by the way, I been taking shower every day this summer. Obviously most of it doesn't count since I was away visitting my mom. But I been back to campus these past couple of weeks. So being seen clean for two weeks wasn't enough. How much longer do you think it would take? Would it be months, or years or how long?


Of course it absolutely counts while visiting your mom. This is a habit you need to maintain regardless. Don't you ever just feel like you need a shower, from feeling grimy?

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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> Of course it absolutely counts while visiting your mom. This is a habit you need to maintain regardless. Don't you ever just feel like you need a shower, from feeling grimy?


I guess after I been taking showers regularly if I skip a couple then yes I would feel something. But if I don't take showers regularly then I don't feel anything cause my body gets dissensitized. By the way, could it be that with other things its similar: if I were to speak in a quiet voice, or talk less about myself and more about others, or follow whatever other social norm I am not following for an extended period of time, perhaps I would feel something is wrong when I will again decide to stop following it? Too bad I don't have such opportunities to practice.


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