# Which stimulant do you prefer and why?



## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Given the choice between Ritalin, Adderall, and dextromamphetamine which would you prefer? And why?

If you'd want none of them, tell me that as well.

My pdoc tells me that about 80% find Dex & Adderall the same, while the other 20% have a preference. I'm currently trying Ritalin in the form of Concerta as I had a free coupon for it. It's OK, though I'd rather have dextroamphetamine IR. My pdoc seems OK with giving me any of the above in immediate release versions. He deems CR versions to simply be a matter of convenience & preference and he knows I'm fine with taking multiple doses per day. He also knows I have to pay for my own meds, so cost is a factor and, the IR version of Dex is 1/3 the price of the CR version.

I also prefer IR versions of meds as I want to be in control, rather than having a pill tell me how much I'll get & when, a position that my pdoc fully understands. He even told me that after trying extended release versions some patients decided to go back to the immediate release versions they had been on before as they found they preferred IR.

In my case, stimulants are for depression. I've yet to try any standard antidepressant that actually works on anything (anxiety, OCD, depression) and the majority have had side effects that make them too offensive for long-term use. They also have a clearly pro-social effect.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ritalin doesnt kill my SA like amphetamine does, it just makes social situation more rewarding but it isnt much special.
Amphetamine on the other hand completely kill my social anxiety and OCD.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

^You didn't specify which amphetamine. Pure Dex or mixed amphetamine salts?

My impression thus far is that Ritalin is better than nothing, but I'd still much rather go with Dex.

My only experience with Dex was with the brand name CR version that I got long ago from a guy who hated it and gave me a virtually full bottle he had no use for. He went back to Ritalin as he found Dex caused insomnia in him. Seemed fine to me though.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Never tried Adderall. Today is my first day on Dexedrine (instant release), although my experience might be modified by the fact that I'm on an MAOI. I prefer the IR, and the pdoc who prescribed it agrees that, especially since I'm taking an MAOI, a short-acting stimulant is better in case of a hypertensive crisis.

When I took Ritalin in the past, the peripheral side effects were overwhelming and it made me very anxious. Dexedrine feels unbelievably clean in comparison, and for that reason the effects are somewhat more subtle. I don't feel high or anything, but right now I'm feeling energized and motivated and just... good, for once.

For people with an anxiety disorder, in my experience, Ritalin makes very little sense. Sure, amphetamine is theoretically neurotoxic, but in reality it's practically negligible (methamphetamine, on the other hand, is horrible in this regard.) I was worried about feeling all sketched out and restless on this stuff but I'm tolerating it a whole lot better than even caffeine! Unfortunately, since I just started today, I can't really speak as to how much I'll like it in the long-term.

I've abused a lot of drugs in my time, and for the most part I've absolutely hated stimulants and the anxiety they cause. This stuff feels very different, and oddly enough I don't actually see the recreational value in it. But if I can manage to keep this drug working its magic for a significant amount of time, I'm really optimistic about finally being able to move on in my life.


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## Wellington (Dec 29, 2007)

Adderall made me a lot more jitty than Dex IR. Both work well but the dex causes less/no anxiety usually.


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## John Smith (Jul 14, 2009)

None, they stop working after a while and you have to keep using them just to feel not even as good as before. By then, you've become dependant and the withdrawal means doing nothing and sleeping most of the day for a week.


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## Wellington (Dec 29, 2007)

Tolerance is a big issue with amphetamines as it is with any "good"/addictive med. I only take my dex 4 days a week during the school week and stay off it during the summer and holiday breaks. I take a relatively low dosage... I also take 400mg of magnesium every day to help prevent tolerance a bit.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

I think all them big words are CREEPY! :afr


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

I like energy drinks but I don't drink them anymore. But WOO HOO! HOO HOO HOO!

If you get real depressed, better than alcohol.


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

I prefer Adderall IR because the NE boost it causes allowed me to better gauge my dose (ie fast pulse and sweating = took too much; sluggish and tired = took too little). I didn't realize this until I tried switching from Adderall IR to Dexedrine IR for a month. I took the equivalent dose, but without the noticeable NE kick, I often took too much Dexedrine and ended up staying awake for days at a time, which sucked. I went back to the Adderall IR after only one month.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

I prefer Ritalin because it corrects ADD with minimal side effects. Adderall gave me a laundry list of side effects including tremors, complete lack of appetite, insomnia, and "hyperfocus" (staring at a wall or reading a novel in one sitting). Neither help my SA much at all.


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## Selection10 (Oct 7, 2009)

Like i've said many times, Dexedrine I find to be the best stimulant hands down. NOTHING compares. It induces a calm focus with no physical jitters or anxiety of any sort.

I'd definitely go with your gut instinct and go with the Dextroamphetamine IR, though I personally prefer the spansules because they feel much "smoother" in effect , plus with the spansules when I was taking them I still had to dose 3 times a day because it only lasted me about 4-5 hours for me! I guess I metabolized the drug rather quickly.

For the dexedrine spansules, half the dose is immediately released into the bloodstream, while the remaining half is slowly released over the remaining hours. 

You could take both the spansules and the IR version which is what I did. You can take for example a 15mg spansule in the morning, and then dose as needed with the IR throughout the day when the spansule wears off. I didn't like the IR version since I found it too stimulating, the spansule is much more smoother in effect.

Let me know how this helps you with your depression & social anxiety... it would be interesting if it helped since you've been treatment-resistant to everything you've tried!


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

Holy crap on a stick, Ultra finally got some stimmies! Way to not give up on it man! 



polythene said:


> Adderall, hands down. Very activating (of course), though the effects aren't obvious if you stick to a conservative dose. The first time I tried Adderall was with friends - it wasn't much - but everyone at the gathering I was at became a lot of fun to talk to. It's like I could interact, finally, without being quiet or reserved. I needed more of course when the anxiety got terrible, but I went from being utterly unable to even look someone in the face to having a conversation with people I found intimidating over dinner. Pretty amazing.
> 
> I've also tried Ritalin, which for some reason did nothing for me. Then I tried a fairly generous dose of dexedrine, and found I didn't like it at all. It actually tired me out, and it wasn't pro-social at all. I think Adderall is generally the one people like best; I like the XR version.


Having tried all three, I reflect this opinion for the most part.

Dexedrine definitely causes less physical anxiety for me than adderall does but it doesn't help as much with my focus, aggression, depression or verbal fluency (ability to find or 'come up with' the right words, or ANY words, during conversation). By physical anxiety I mean a racing heart and a generally 'stiff' or motionless, perhaps hyper focused, posture. While I feel more 'up' on adderall (probably relates to how it helps quell my volatile temper and helps my depression somewhat) my perception is that to others, I appear much more tense or angry because of the hyper-focus. I automatically pick up on this perception from others and this in turn causes me to hyper focus even more to bring down my racing heart. Then of course there is the crash where the depression is probably worse than ever. Its a sh!tty cycle but at least it enables me to hold a job and not off myself. Despite its (major) drawbacks adderall has absolutely saved my life.

I have a hard time describing exactly how dexedrine helped me, but it did in some weird way, maybe slightly less anxiety. It might have increased my aggression level I think. I flipped out on some chick the one day I was only on just it and lex and was out in public. The chick did hammer the accelerator and blatantly steal a parking spot I had waited patiently for after driving around for 30 minutes (when I was already late for class) though so maybe I would have slashed her tires even if I wasn't only on dex that day.

I feel like concerta (ritalin) is like a half and half split in terms of the positives and negatives of dex and adderall. Its more physically stimulating than dex but not as much as adderall. It helps with focus and over aggression more than dex but not as much as adderall.

I probably feel the least amount of physical side effects like lowered libido and ability from concerta. Concerta is actually very pro libido for me.

Hows that for a sh!tty splitting up of pros and cons?

I much prefer the adderall IR over the XR as I don't feel as continually physically anxious on the IR.

Oh yah, also, it is extremely important to start at as low a dose as possible on all of these meds and work your way up (and then back down a little) till you find the ideal dose. Any more than 5mg of adderall every 4 hours and I absolutely hate its effects on me.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

bezoomny said:


> I prefer Ritalin because it corrects ADD with minimal side effects. Adderall gave me a laundry list of side effects including tremors, *complete lack of appetite*, insomnia, and "hyperfocus" (staring at a wall or reading a novel in one sitting). Neither help my SA much at all.


Given my lifelong battle with obesity, there is at least one side effect I'd never complain about.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah... the dex I started has a lot of promise for my problems:

ADHD-I, depression, SAD, AND borderline obesity, which has always been really bad for my self esteem and no doubt contributes to the social anxiety. I'm definitely hopeful.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

korey said:


> I prefer Adderall IR because the NE boost it causes allowed me to better gauge my dose (ie fast pulse and sweating = took too much; sluggish and tired = took too little). I didn't realize this until I tried switching from Adderall IR to Dexedrine IR for a month. I took the equivalent dose, but without the noticeable NE kick, I often took too much Dexedrine and ended up staying awake for days at a time, which sucked. I went back to the Adderall IR after only one month.


What size doses are you (and others) talking about for adderall/dex/(and ritalin, though I'm not really as interested...)?


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

The biggest question i have is how long will the prosocial, pro positive feelings last before the med does what it was intended for. Treating Attention, concentration, and focus problems for ADHDers. I know many suggest adding magnesium etc... but even with that being said, how effective is these addons at slowing down the reason why we SAers want ADD meds?

Ultrashy report your results as u continually use the med. As it relates to SA and Depression. The good and the bad.


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## wantotalk (May 4, 2009)

I have been using Vyvanse for 5-6 months. Initially, it killed my social anxiety (as well as anxiety/depression in general). I started at 30 mg and eventually got up to 70 mg. The pro-social affects have definitely decreased over time. I usually take Vyvanse 4 days a week, and alternate between 30 mg and 70 mg a day. I get a window of about 2-3 hours where I am more confident, less anxious, and enjoy increased verbal fluency....but again, these affects have waned significantly since I started the drug, and I assume they will be close to nil if I continue my current regimen.

I am not sure how to stop 'tolerance' to this particular aspect of the drug. Taking days off helps a bit (the more days in a row the better). I have heard about magnesium preventing tolerance (I don't know if this is speculation, or if there is actual evidence to back it up).


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

BusterBluth said:


> What size doses are you (and others) talking about for adderall/dex/(and ritalin, though I'm not really as interested...)?


When I was taking stimulants, I was on 60mg/day of Ritalin, 60mg/day of Adderall, and 30mg/day of Dexedrine. These were at different times over a couple of years, of course - I was never on two different stimulants at once.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

I've taken Dex long time ago in college when I thought I could get a buzz off it, no dice.


I am gonna hit my doc up for something. So what I've gathered from everyone is that:

Dex-More cerebral, less physical sypmtoms

Ritalin-Somewhere between Dex and Adderal

Adderal-More physical, can trigger anxiety.




Sound about right?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Id say ritalin is completely worthless.


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## gillettecavalcad3 (Jul 9, 2009)

Effexor XR 300mg act exactly like a stimulant for me. I guess It's working on the Dopamine at that high a dose.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

wantotalk said:


> I have been using Vyvanse for 5-6 months. Initially, it killed my social anxiety (as well as anxiety/depression in general). I started at 30 mg and eventually got up to 70 mg. The pro-social affects have definitely decreased over time. I usually take Vyvanse 4 days a week, and alternate between 30 mg and 70 mg a day. I get a window of about 2-3 hours where I am more confident, less anxious, and enjoy increased verbal fluency....but again, these affects have waned significantly since I started the drug, and I assume they will be close to nil if I continue my current regimen.
> 
> I am not sure how to stop 'tolerance' to this particular aspect of the drug. Taking days off helps a bit (the more days in a row the better). I have heard about magnesium preventing tolerance (I don't know if this is speculation, or if there is actual evidence to back it up).


Wow-- your use sounds infrequent and small enough that I wouldn't have thought your have significantly diminished benefits and increased tolerance. Anyone else surprised or have similar experience?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

You can get completely tolerant to amphetamine in just 2 days.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> You can get completely tolerant to amphetamine in just 2 days.


So come day threeamphetamines _can _be like taking a sugar pill from then on? And I guess similarly I _can _get struck by lightning twice? I understand my example is an exaggeration, but let's talk about the responses in middle section of the curve.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

korey said:


> I prefer Adderall IR because the NE boost it causes allowed me to better gauge my dose (ie fast pulse and sweating = took too much; sluggish and tired = took too little). I didn't realize this until I tried switching from Adderall IR to Dexedrine IR for a month. I took the equivalent dose, but without the noticeable NE kick, I often took too much Dexedrine and ended up staying awake for days at a time, which sucked. I went back to the Adderall IR after only one month.


Thats actually extremely interesting. I too tried dex and raised it to about 4 times my adderall dosage just to try and feel some kind of effects. Its strange that dexedrine seems to give me next to no benefits in comparison with adderall. Like I said, I almost can't feel the difference. Honestly I probably can feel some kind of deep down subtle positive emotional differences which are difficult to verbally describe while on dex, but adderall's benefits are extremely blatant and obvious in comparison. Both in my physical and psychological 'behavior'.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

TiMeZuP said:


> ... but even with that being said, how effective is these addons at slowing down the reason why we SAers want ADD meds?


I'm confused at what you are trying to say here. Could you explain?


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

BusterBluth said:


> So come day threeamphetamines _can _be like taking a sugar pill from then on? And I guess similarly I _can _get struck by lightning twice? I understand my example is an exaggeration, but let's talk about the responses in middle section of the curve.


On it like a sonnet.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

KurtG85 said:


> I'm confused at what you are trying to say here. Could you explain?


My point is ADD meds help us SAers only initially then slowly the therapeutic effects fade. All that seems to be left when the med is taken is the (current) reason why the med was designed for, to increase attention and concentration. I myself have found Adderall for example less effective each time I used it. The VERY first time I took it I was like HOLY ****, if I had friends I would be able to actually hang out and have fun (not in a partying way). The second time I took Addy, it still had some pro social effects but were less then the first time, my social drive wasnt as high. Each dose seems to help, but less and less. The only thing that stuck was increased concentration and alertness. I realize people talk about all these meds to reduce tolerence but how effective are they really for Stims, as currently designed, to be practical for a SAers regular and practical use. All of us SAers are in this viscous cycle and it takes a little more then taking addy a few times a week to get out of the loop were have been stuck in for most of our lives.........


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

So what, it's principally only the pro-social effects of amphetamines that you rapidly build tolerance to? I was just prescribed dex but I also have been diagnosed with ADHD-I, as well as having excessive daytime sleepiness due to obstructive sleep apnea. If the stims can still help me with those, I'll be more than happy. Hopefully the Nardil will help with the SA.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

TiMeZuP said:


> My point is ADD meds help us SAers only initially then slowly the therapeutic effects fade. All that seems to be left when the med is taken is the (current) reason why the med was designed for, to increase attention and concentration. I myself have found Adderall for example less effective each time I used it. The VERY first time I took it I was like HOLY ****, if I had friends I would be able to actually hang out and have fun (not in a partying way). The second time I took Addy, it still had some pro social effects but were less then the first time, my social drive wasnt as high. Each dose seems to help, but less and less. The only thing that stuck was increased concentration and alertness. I realize people talk about all these meds to reduce tolerence but how effective are they really for Stims, as currently designed, to be practical for a SAers regular and practical use. All of us SAers are in this viscous cycle and it takes a little more then taking addy a few times a week to get out of the loop were have been stuck in for most of our lives.........


You are basing all of that on the belief that all people will have this reaction to this med. As you can read in my signature at the link: "rule number one for people new to meds", people have very different and unique reactions to meds. Case in point: I have been taking adderall, 5 mg IR, every 4-6 hours I am awake (nearly without fail) for about 13 years now. The pro-social/verbal-fluency (as well as the other positives) I get from adderall has been the same feelings I get since my first dose. By the way, I originally started taking it for ADD but found the profound pro social effects it has always had on me by 'accident'.

If I have felt any tolerance anywhere with the med I would say it might be with the focus aspect but it would still be very small.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

Listen bud, if stims were practical at treating SA for the long hall SAS would fade away and the med section would have few post. Kudos that it has helped you and I dont dismiss its benefits for combating SA, but without trying to sound like an *******, if its soooo great, why are you here? I would be out living life meeting people, hanging out, socializing, and doing all the things this disorder hinders.......

I am at the point now with addy it makes me happy to dive even deeper in my own introspective world. In all honesty, it makes me a better introvert. Don't get me wrong, if I had a date tonight, Addy would be the first pill I took, as well as taking a benzo along for the ride just in case..... Social interaction can feel easier on stims but the pro social feelings for me go away



KurtG85 said:


> You are basing all of that on the belief that all people will have this reaction to this med. As you can read in my signature at the link: "rule number one for people new to meds", people have very different and unique reactions to meds. Case in point: I have been taking adderall, 5 mg IR, every 4-6 hours I am awake (nearly without fail) for about 13 years now. The pro-social/verbal-fluency (as well as the other positives) I get from adderall has been the same feelings I get since my first dose. By the way, I originally started taking it for ADD but found the profound pro social effects it has always had on me by 'accident'.
> 
> If I have felt any tolerance anywhere with the med I would say it might be with the focus aspect but it would still be very small.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

TiMeZuP said:


> without trying to sound like an *******


Nope. That's exactly what you sound like with that post.

Thanks for your post KurtG-- it's nice to have people with positive experiences sharing on the boards.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

BusterBluth said:


> Nope. That's exactly what you sound like with that post.
> 
> Thanks for your post KurtG-- it's nice to have people with positive experiences sharing on the boards.


Yeah...when your TiMeZuP, you'll be hard-pressed to choose between being an ******* or throwing up on Prozac.

Got a sincere question about this quote though. *"if I had friends I would be able to actually hang out and have fun (not in a partying way)"* 
So then what would you be doing? Crossword puzzles? Drinking tea? Playing basketball? 
I feel like the most troubling social situations I find are at parties anyway because of the less structure of it. The less structure, the less I've done it, the more I freak out inside.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

db0255 said:


> I feel like the most troubling social situations I find are at parties anyway because of the less structure of it. The less structure, the less I've done it, the more I freak out inside.


So if I am reading that right, your trying to find meds so you can perform better at parties? You still in that phase or havent you outgrown that yet?


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

TiMeZuP said:


> So if I am reading that right, your trying to find meds so you can perform better at parties? You still in that phase or havent you outgrown that yet?


Who said I was looking for meds so that I can perform better at parties? However, most of the social interactions that are troubling are usually when there are a lot of people around; i.e. I don't need meds to have a conversation with someone in a library. So, no it's not about outgrowing that at all I don't think, or about a phase to get over, it's more about feeling normal and judging how well the meds are helping by how much you improve in situations like that or feel more at ease. Like others on this board, I feel like an extravert stuck in an introverts body...I have a medication that works for depression and that works for me now. I'm not looking for "stims" or doing recreational stuff, which you and I probably know would "help".


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## jakeforpresident (Sep 27, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Who said I was looking for meds so that I can perform better at parties? However, most of the social interactions that are troubling are usually when there are a lot of people around; i.e. I don't need meds to have a conversation with someone in a library. So, no it's not about outgrowing that at all I don't think, or about a phase to get over, it's more about feeling normal and judging how well the meds are helping by how much you improve in situations like that or feel more at ease. Like others on this board, I feel like an extravert stuck in an introverts body...I have a medication that works for depression and that works for me now. I'm not looking for "stims" or doing recreational stuff, which you and I probably know would "help".


I agree, when there is less structure I feel much much more anxious. That's why I can handle work but when it comes to hanging out with more than a few people I either get pissy or anxious.

I really wish there was a cure for SA but there isn't, and there may never be one except by a eugenics program to weed out bad genetics and bad parenting/upbringing... and that'll never happen unfortunately.

There are meds that seem to help though, primarily drugs that work on serotonin and dopamine.
Serotonin seems to work better for anxiety and dark moods.
Dopamine seems to work better for atypical depression, dullness, and a lack of things to say.

Perhaps this is why Nardil and Parnate still work well after all these years: they effectively "fix" both problems.


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## jakeforpresident (Sep 27, 2009)

Hey just read a really interesting article that I think you guys need to read:



http://www.acnp.org/G4/GN401000166/CH162.htm said:


> *Elucidation of the Hypodopaminergic State: An Analysis of Parkinsonism*
> Parkinson's disease represents a hypodopaminergic syndrome with cognitive-neuromotor effects that resemble some of the more marginal effects of stimulant withdrawal. The latter effects may be characterized by a hypodopaminergic state. One of the more remarkable changes in Parkinsonism is the loss of executive function, which refers to a group of cognitive skills involved in the initiation, planning, and monitoring of goal-directed behaviors (132). *These functions include the ability to*: 1) establish and maintain set, shift from one set to another, formulate concepts and reason abstractly; 2) use feedback to monitor behavior, program sequential motor activities; 3) develop strategies to learn and copy complex figures; and *4) exert emotional self-control and maintain socially appropriate behaviors* (144). Tests such as the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test (WCST), a task of concept formation and set shifting ability are impaired in Parkinsonism even when psychomotor speed is factored out (144). The executive functions revolving around verbal capacity are not consistently impaired. Visuospatial skills have been the most frequently reported cognitive disturbance (26). Such studies have found that Parkinson patients exhibited deficits in visual analysis and synthesis (e.g., imbedded figure task, visual discrimination and matching and pattern completion, constructional praxis) even when the speed component was eliminated (144). Even patients in the early stages of Parkinsonism, before treatment is initiated, have psychomotor slowing, loss of cognitive flexibility and mild reductions in learning and recall (128). If the case can be made that the stimulant withdrawal hypodopaminergic state results in similar mild defects, these changes in the executive functions of monitoring behavior, executing plans, etc. could contribute to the lack of therapeutic engagement and accomplishment noted with many of these patients.


I think a hypodominergic state is a prime candidacy for social anxiety disorder, and when i read some of these Parkinsonian symptoms I see some of them in myself, although to a lesser degree.

Plus, I think I may have an answer to stimulant tolerance: take a high dose short-acting (10-12 hours tops) neuroleptic every night. That would maintain sensitivity of DA receptors... but you can still expect diminished effects after a few days of AMPH use.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

jakeforpresident said:


> Hey just read a really interesting article that I think you guys need to read:
> 
> I think a hypodominergic state is a prime candidacy for social anxiety disorder, and when i read some of these Parkinsonian symptoms I see some of them in myself, although to a lesser degree.
> 
> Plus, I think I may have an answer to stimulant tolerance: take a high dose short-acting (10-12 hours tops) neuroleptic every night. That would maintain sensitivity of DA receptors... but you can still expect diminished effects after a few days of AMPH use.


That wont work. Amphetamines raise glutamate, and glutamate in turns desentises dopamine in the nucleus accumbens. You cant fix that with a neuroleptic.


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## jakeforpresident (Sep 27, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> That wont work. Amphetamines raise glutamate, and glutamate in turns desentises dopamine in the nucleus accumbens. You cant fix that with a neuroleptic.


The nucleus accumbens doesn't seem to be a major--just a minor--influencer as to why dopaminergics work. DA affects are widespread throughout the brain, especially the mesolimbic pathway.

But that's not important... what is important is that dopaminergics seem to be the gold standard for treating SA. So drugs like selegiline coupled with levodopa would also work well... but tolerance could lead to ticks after long term treatment among other DA system changes.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

jakeforpresident said:


> The nucleus accumbens doesn't seem to be a major--just a minor--influencer as to why dopaminergics work. DA affects are widespread throughout the brain, especially the mesolimbic pathway.


But its the nucleus accumbens that causes the rewarding effects that we want for social situations.


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## NicktheQuik (Nov 9, 2009)

I have a question unrelated to the topic. Are you guys all really smart people, or have you just learned all this stuff strictly by looking stuff up about problems you have and from different medications.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

TiMeZuP said:


> Listen bud, if stims were practical at treating SA for the long hall SAS would fade away and the med section would have few post......


There is a bit of mis-communication going on here. Never did I say or imply that adderall is a cure all for SAD, short term or long 'haul'. What I was referring to was purely the 'tolerance' effects and how not necessarily everyone experiences tolerance. I was not addressing the long term, solo med therapy of adderall for social anxiety disorder. Once again, the success of a single med therapy using adderall for SAD would be entirely dependent on the individuals unique brain chemical soup and is quite possible. However, I myself have written many very long and detailed posts on this forum outlining the ways in which I believe (and have experienced first hand) stimulants can POTENTIALLY lead the 'user' to believe that their SAD, depression etc. is being fully (or at least adequately) treated by a stimulant when in fact it is only making them a better, more confident, introvert, as you related (or something along the lines of the med not really benefiting them that much or maybe even making them worse without them realizing it).

The 'pro social' feelings do sort of go away for me as well however it more relates to what stage of the effects I am feeling from the adderall dose (whether it be the first hour after taking the med, the middle area, or the final hour or so). In other words I experience pro social feelings every time I take adderall just like the first time I took adderall (no tolerance felt whatsoever, and trust me I am extremely perceptive of changes in my social behavior/competency/drive). Just because I say I experience pro social effects from adderall doesn't mean I am advocating adderall as the draw back free, side effect free cure all for poor social drive and functioning. Adderall has a crap load of drawbacks for many people. As I said, I have made many posts regarding this.

In regards to you saying adderall makes you more introverted. I also can relate to this effect. I believe, although I could be wrong, that as a common psychological effect amphetamine is said to increase meta-cognitive ability. On one hand this has helped out a TON because it has really allowed me to have the ability to observe with more humility how I think and feel and it has helped me to cement my own sense of identity. On the other hand, like you said, usually over-introspection is a characteristic of loners and people with social anxiety disorder and this constant pre-occupation with my own thoughts (and my own behavior) adderall contributes to is probably even more damaging to my functionality in life than if I didn't take adderall at all. The catcher though, is that I feel 95% sure that I would of killed myself long, long ago if not for adderall because I desperately needed some kind of social functioning ability to continue living which adderall provides to an amazing, life-saving degree.

This increased ability to organize and understand my thoughts probably coincides with Jakeforpresident's post about dopamine which is extremely interesting.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

@Kurt

In what stage do you feel the pro social effects. I can feel them as well, which is kewl, but they dont stick around to long......

As for:



> stimulants can POTENTIALLY lead the *'user' to believe that their SAD, depression* etc. *is being* fully (or at least adequately) *treated by a stimulant* when in fact it is *only making them a better, more confident, introvert*, as you related


Well Said bro.......

One thing I have noticed from addy though is, even though it may not give me social drive. Once I was interacting with some one I felt less mental fatigue and conversation was easier.

But If I were to take an addy at home by myself I would be happy in my own little introspective world pondering every thought to the most simplistic form....blah


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

db0255 said:


> I feel like an extravert stuck in an introverts body....


Your not alone


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## NicktheQuik (Nov 9, 2009)

Taking Adderall with Remeron is ok right? Like Adderall to start the day, then Remeron before bed to help you sleep?


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

Nick, 

Dont know the answer to that one because Remeron is an "antidepressant". But do you find it helps your insomnia? I tried it once, ugh..... awful feeling the next day. Plus it never relaxed my mind enough to WANT to sleep....


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## NicktheQuik (Nov 9, 2009)

Well I don't know if what I have qualifies as insomnia, but I did definitely have trouble sleeping. Sometimes I could be up for an hour or two just laying there trying to sleep.

But once I started Remeron (Every single night) I fall asleep within 20 minutes or so. And just to see how I did without, I didn't take it one night, and had trouble sleeping again. My doctor prescribed this to me to help with my SA, but I don't think it's really helped that, just my sleep. Plus I've gained some weight too, but I'm kinda skinny so I've enjoyed that side effect.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

I like my energy drinks and clonazepam. Im more alert and able to focus a lot better when nervous than tired and depressed.


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## Thomas Paine (Mar 29, 2008)

A friend of a friend prefers caffeine + THC. For him it is stimulating and therapeutic at the same time (after he got used to it). It also helps relax his tense muscles and makes the world seem more beautiful as well. It has to be the purer THC without all the other sedative chemicals though, or else it makes him too sleepy. He did have to learn how to control his thoughts on it too and use it sparingly, or else it would really screw with his head.


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## jakeforpresident (Sep 27, 2009)

KurtG85 said:


> The catcher though, is that I feel 95% sure that I would of killed myself long, long ago if not for adderall because I desperately needed some kind of social functioning ability to continue living which adderall provides to an amazing, life-saving degree.
> 
> This increased ability to organize and understand my thoughts probably coincides with Jakeforpresident's post about dopamine which is extremely interesting.


Thanks Kurt, I appreciate your interest and the fact that somebody actually read my post, ha ha.

I think stimulants might be worth a try for me, especially after reading your post. My doc even suggested them, so prob a good option.

I think if tolerance was such a big issue stimulants wouldn't be prescribed for such long periods of time.

Here are a few studies to back it up:
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/56/4/330
"Significant benefits from methylphenidate were stable over 2 years."; http://journals.lww.com/jaacap/Abst...atic_Improvement_in_Children_With_ADHD.5.aspx

But these studies refute long term treatment (greater than two years):
http://www.usnews.com/health/blogs/.../adhd-drugs-dont-help-children-long-term.html
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/4870.php

So at least two years of benefit may be recieved from stimulants.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

jakeforpresident said:


> Thanks Kurt, I appreciate your interest and the fact that somebody actually read my post, ha ha.
> 
> I think stimulants might be worth a try for me, especially after reading your post. My doc even suggested them, so prob a good option.
> 
> ...


If you try a stimulant dont take it daily! I cant stress this enough. Also take "reset breaks".


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

korey said:


> I prefer Adderall IR because the NE boost it causes allowed me to better gauge my dose (ie fast pulse and sweating = took too much...


I'd prefer to avoid a faster pulse.



korey said:


> but without the noticeable NE kick, I often took too much Dexedrine and ended up staying awake for days at a time...


How much did you take to unintentionally stay awake for days? I wouldn't have thought it would be that easy to accidentally take so much that the effect would be so exceptionally profound.


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

UltraShy said:


> I'd prefer to avoid a faster pulse.
> 
> How much did you take to unintentionally stay awake for days? I wouldn't have thought it would be that easy to accidentally take so much that the effect would be so exceptionally profound.


Only the amount I was prescribed, which was 10mg 3x/day (so I had 30mg in my at the end of each day). Looking back, I really should've been on 5mg 3x/day instead.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

korey said:


> Only the amount I was prescribed, which was 10mg 3x/day (so I had 30mg in my at the end of each day). Looking back, I really should've been on 5mg 3x/day instead.


So was the effect cumulative? As in more & more dextroamphetamine built up in you such that it became so much that eventually you were awake for days?:stu

I wouldn't imagine that taking 30 mg over the course of *one* day (none the prior day and none after that day) would have such an extreme effect, would it?:stu

Thanks for the info, Korey.


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## Thomas Paine (Mar 29, 2008)

UltraShy said:


> So was the effect cumulative? As in more & more dextroamphetamine built up in you such that it became so much that eventually you were awake for days?:stu
> 
> I wouldn't imagine that taking 30 mg over the course of *one* day (none the prior day and none after that day) would have such an extreme effect, would it?:stu
> 
> Thanks for the info, Korey.


Sounds like it was a big enough dose for his body weight that it just hit him fairly hard. Seems like they would titrate you up on something like that over several days until you get used to what you can handle. That's definitely something I'd ask my doctor about if I tried it. I've had pretty bad paranoid reactions to prescription migraine preventatives that work on epinephrine and dopamine. And I'm not really a paranoid person. Just sensitive to those types of drugs because of anxiety.


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## Selection10 (Oct 7, 2009)

UltraShy said:


> So was the effect cumulative? As in more & more dextroamphetamine built up in you such that it became so much that eventually you were awake for days?:stu
> 
> I wouldn't imagine that taking 30 mg over the course of *one* day (none the prior day and none after that day) would have such an extreme effect, would it?:stu
> 
> Thanks for the info, Korey.


His experience is not typical. I've never heard of anyone being "awake for days" from one day of taking it. It leaves your systems completely within 24 hours... and the effects completely stop after like 6 hours... so it is likely it may have triggered something like hypomania or something along those lines.


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

UltraShy said:


> So was the effect cumulative? As in more & more dextroamphetamine built up in you such that it became so much that eventually you were awake for days?:stu
> 
> I wouldn't imagine that taking 30 mg over the course of *one* day (none the prior day and none after that day) would have such an extreme effect, would it?:stu
> 
> Thanks for the info, Korey.


I don't think it was cumulative, no. I took 30mg/day everyday until I realized that the full 30mg/day was making me stay awake against my wishes. Then I decreased it to 10-15mg this day, 20mg that day, occasionally the full 30mg/day; but 30mg/day day after day was too much for me. Someone mentioned possibly triggering hypomania - that's a possibility since lots of other psych meds have triggered similar reactions in me.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

jakeforpresident said:


> There are meds that seem to help though, primarily drugs that work on serotonin and dopamine.
> Serotonin seems to work better for anxiety and dark moods.
> Dopamine seems to work better for atypical depression, dullness, and a lack of things to say.


Prozac fixed atypical depression, dullness, and a lack of things to say for me.....


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

TiMeZuP said:


> @Kurt
> 
> In what stage do you feel the pro social effects. I can feel them as well, which is kewl, but they dont stick around to long......
> 
> One thing I have noticed from addy though is, even though it may not give me social drive. Once I was interacting with some one I felt less mental fatigue and conversation was easier.


Saying that I feel the pro social effects in 'stages' probably really isn't that accurate. I always feel fairly strong pro social effects from adderall all the while I am on it. The med seems to make me more pleasant and likeable; it helps my depression to a large degree (for a short time). By far the biggest thing, like you said, is that the words seem to 'come to me' and I can engage in conversation so much more easily without exhausting myself so quickly. However, even though it makes me capable of conversation I still become mentally exhausted extremelly quickly. I would love all social interaction (especially so while on adderall) if I didn't always feel like I was 'off-step' somehow and hence always having to put in a huge amount of focus and effort into not appearing rude, unpleasant, or like I don't care or am not listening. Its like I am still too anxious, depressed, ADD or something which puts me 'off step'. In fact I am extremelly sensitive and want to listen to, understand and help people but so often I am overwhelmed with depression, anxiety, or plenty of other negative emotions that these seem to register with people and make them think I have something against them or else I am otherwise just awkward or unpleasant.

This exhaustion (which is usually manifested as depression) actually becomes much more severe on adderall. This is only because I actually have a pretty good chance at being socially pleasant and functional on adderall, however it takes so much damn energy to be pleasant that it leaves me mind numbingly depressed, over-anxious, etc. and unable to be functional in any other areas in my life. This is such a huge desire and obsession for me though that I am happy to exhaust all of my mental energy into just trying to be socially acceptable.

So, it isn't so much that I feel pro social effects in any particular stage it is more that the pro social effects are always there but they are often rendered moot by other negative emotions taking over my personality. The negative emotion adderall probably does directly increase is my anxiety. Although the specific kind of anxiety is difficult to describe.


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