# Ugliness and SA equals hopelessly single



## TheOneAndLonely (Apr 22, 2011)

But I guess that's to make sure that these awful traits don't get passed on. So, in a way, that's a good thing, but I keep on getting depressed about it! Not only do I not have friends, but I also know that I probably will never find a "special" someone. How do you cope??


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## PLarry (Apr 2, 2011)

Sorry, it just felt appropriate.

But on a serious note. You're gonna play the evolution card. Really? I mean the whole ugliness/attractiveness deal is a relative concept. Plus in this day and age the characteristics that people find attractive don't really represent what is best for survival, you know on account of how unnecessary it is to go out and hunt for food and what not.

Sure you might feel the pressures of the media enforcing an image that no one can actually achieve. Its like that study some people did in the 90's or something that showed that African American girls preferred white barbie dolls on account of the emphasis put on being white in society, or something (there's a lot of somethings in this).

But in all honesty someone has to find you attractive. I mean, its like the law of averages or something. They might live in Tahiti (cue Whole Wide World by Wreckless Eric) but they are out there. Also the ugliness people experience is just a reflection of their own expectations or feelings towards themselves, or some bs (got ya that time).

So don't worry. (cue Don't Worry Be Happy by Bobby Mcferrin)


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

Hey, I don't have friends either. And I'm single. I have more hope finding a girlfriend than I do a regular friend.

SA is a positive attribute to me. I don't know if you're actually ugly or not, girls that think they are ugly but aren't are cute. Personality matters the most - yeah everyone says that. Like PLarry said, someone somewhere will think you're ****ing hot.

As far as coping goes... I spend large amounts of time on dating sites not finding the right person. I re-evaluate what I really want. I distract myself with stupid video games and online forums. And I fantasize about finding someone.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I've figured out a lot of positive things in my life and being realistic is one of them. What can you do if you feel like a ugly person and others feel the same about you? I can't answer that but to say keep on trying and try to enjoy life in the process. At least, that's what I do.


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## TheOneAndLonely (Apr 22, 2011)

PLarry said:


> But in all honesty someone has to find you attractive. I mean, its like the law of averages or something. They might live in Tahiti (cue Whole Wide World by Wreckless Eric) but they are out there.


True...In that case I guess I need to travel.



andy1984 said:


> I don't know if you're actually ugly or not, girls that think they are ugly but aren't are cute.


From what I've observed in guys who seem not to think I'm ugly, my "ugly" self-image is an annoying turn-off. My negative self-image and my SA combined make it seemingly impossible to get a bf. So, maybe the issue is not "ugliness" (which is debatable), but self-image (although I do believe that if I had overall better physical characteristics, they would help balance my self-image and SA issues).


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## lonely metalhead (Apr 22, 2011)

SA has definitely made it hard for me to get a girlfriend or make a regular friend for that matter but as far as physical attractiveness I do alright but AS has to come in and ruin everything. And also as an aspireing biologist I can say that SA might be a "bad" evolutionary trait as far as passing on genetics but not much and as far a physical attractiveness goes its important today but not an evolutionary necessity its survival of the fittest not survival of the prettiest. But still I understand where your coming from


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## UndreamingAwake (Apr 11, 2011)

TheOneAndLonely said:


> From what I've observed in guys who seem not to think I'm ugly, my "ugly" self-image is an annoying turn-off. My negative self-image and my SA combined make it seemingly impossible to get a bf. So, maybe the issue is not "ugliness" (which is debatable), but self-image (although I do believe that if I had overall better physical characteristics, they would help balance my self-image and SA issues).


One thing is that "beautiful and ugly" are in the eye of the beholder. I don't know who is calling you "ugly" but please keep in mind that that could just be to degrade you for some reason. It's true that confidence does quite a bit but i find it hard to believe that thats all that matters.


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## KennethJones (Jun 22, 2009)

TheOneAndLonely said:


> But I guess that's to make sure that these awful traits don't get passed on. So, in a way, that's a good thing, but I keep on getting depressed about it! Not only do I not have friends, but I also know that I probably will never find a "special" someone. How do you cope??


This is only true if you are a man. Being a woman, you always have options regardless of your situation.

Also there is really no such thing as an ugly woman - that is a myth. Only men can be "ugly".

Ive been on this planet for 25 years and ive never seen a woman that was ugly or so unattractive that getting a mate would be out of the realm of possibility.


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## Jade18 (Mar 6, 2011)

when I was a kid I was always told I was very cute/beautiful
I had very long wavy dark brown hair brown/green eyes and a button nose(which is not that special but since most dutch kids are blonde/blue eyed its sort of special I guess lol)
than when I became a young teen 12/13/14/15 Ive been called ****ing butt ugly a lot.
but there were some guys who were still interested in me(which I believe was a mirracle since I was pretty obese at that time)
than at 16 somehow I got more ''attractive'' or something I dont know:sus
I even started to be approached by guys on the street..
which I hate...Once a guy kept asking for my number and than wanted to kiss me..seriously traumatized. but lately I rarely go outside so pretty much nothing happands nowadays..but I just want to make it clear for people that no matter how ''ugly'' you are there will ALWAYS be at least 1000nds of guys/girls who will like you..the world is so huge!(no its not a small world give me a break..) Europe,America,Asia,Africa, milions and milions of people all over the world who will find you attractive! there is a someone for everyone.
but dont force it...if you'll force it nothing good comes out of it.


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## lonely metalhead (Apr 22, 2011)

Jade18 said:


> when I was a kid I was always told I was very cute/beautiful
> I had very long wavy brown hair brown/green eyes and a button nose
> than when I became a young teen 12/13/14/15 Ive been called ****ing butt ugly a lot.
> but there were some guys who were still interested in me(which I believe was a mirracle since I was pretty obese at that time)
> ...


That is a very positive outlook I think the same thing


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## mcmuffinme (Mar 12, 2010)

I don't know if I'm as hopeless as I think I am, but I truly was a bit of a mess in junior high and being called ugly over and over, whether it's true today or not, still hurts my self-esteem. Time has helped me ease this insecurity, but it's always a fear I have- that I have always and will always be too ugly to find someone to love me.


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

TheOneAndLonely said:


> From what I've observed in guys who seem not to think I'm ugly, my "ugly" self-image is an annoying turn-off. My negative self-image and my SA combined make it seemingly impossible to get a bf. So, maybe the issue is not "ugliness" (which is debatable), but self-image (although I do believe that if I had overall better physical characteristics, they would help balance my self-image and SA issues).


True, but thats certainly not a deal breaker for everyone. My ex had self-image issues, and the insecurity did get annoying sometimes but it was endearing as well - I think it was only annoying because I'm a bit of a dick sometimes. I think that people with their own problems can appreciate other peoples' better. Arg I do miss my ex.

I think if I met the right person we'd just naturally end up together. My problem is that I don't meet people and very few people would ever be 'right' for me. I feel pretty good about myself - I got the whole self-acceptance thing going pretty well, even more so recently. If I did look better I think I'd just attract the wrong kind of girls.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

Ugliness, if such a thing exists, is a minor problem in comparison to SA, by which I mean that no matter how you look, you can get a girlfriend / boyfriend IF you can talk moderately well. Getting a partner is ALL about talking. No matter what 'bad' qualities you have, if you can talk to people comfortably, you almost certainly will find _someone_, eventually. Unfortunately, SA takes from us the one thing we need to find a partner.


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## TheOneAndLonely (Apr 22, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> Ugliness, if such a thing exists, is a minor problem in comparison to SA, by which I mean that no matter how you look, you can get a girlfriend / boyfriend IF you can talk moderately well. Getting a partner is ALL about talking. No matter what 'bad' qualities you have, if you can talk to people comfortably, you almost certainly will find _someone_, eventually. Unfortunately, SA takes from us the one thing we need to find a partner.


I may be totally wrong on this, but I've always thought that the better you look, the less you need to talk well to get a gf/bf. It's kind of like if you can't mesmerize them with beauty, you have to charm them with your intellect and humor. Having both beauty and charm is ideal, and having none of either one is devestating. If you look great, other people take more initiative to get to know you, which takes less pressure off of you. If you don't look so great, then it's more important that you can talk well to get their attention. However, I would agree that if I had to choose between one or the other (good looks w/ SA or ugliness w/o SA) I would choose the ugliness w/o the SA, because even on the days when I don't feel I look so horrible, and some guy might be paying attention to me, I turn into the worst SA wreck, which makes it impossible to show any sign that I might be interested as well. So, like you said, the SA takes away a lot, and I just figure the ugliness (which is relative I guess...) pretty much seals the deal.


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## BrainError (Apr 29, 2009)

KennethJones said:


> This is only true if you are a man. Being a woman, you always have options regardless of your situation.
> 
> Also there is really no such thing as an ugly woman - that is a myth. Only men can be "ugly".
> 
> Ive been on this planet for 25 years and ive never seen a woman that was ugly or so unattractive that getting a mate would be out of the realm of possibility.


I've actually always found this to be kind of the opposite. Women are held up to high standards in relation to looks, while guys can be attractive reguardless of how they look or what the 'ideal' is, but are generally held to higher standards reguarding personality.

Unfortunetely not all of us can be either of those things. :/ On most days I feel impossbly ugly, I can't imagine anyone ever being attracted to me. I'm not sure if I'm actually as ugly as I think, or if it's just because of all the negative reinforcement I had to deal with in high school from so-called "friends".


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## plastics (Apr 11, 2010)

You can be as pretty or good looking as you want, but if you are freakin' boring, or have no humor, or any confidence, you aren't going to get someone. Unless it's someone in a band or something, and just want to sleep with models or something. You won't get a relationship with just looks. 

In my experience, people have been physically attracted to me (which surprises me, because I'm not that skinny, nor good looking imo), and I could tell they were, but I saw them distance themselves after talking to me, because I'm very awkward. Once in awhile you'll find a person that thinks the awkwardness is cute/attractive though. I think it's more often than people might think, to be honest.


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## Heather24 (Apr 28, 2011)

I think its so sad that we live in a world where looks seem to equate to how much value you feel u have as a person. Everyone deserves to feel happy and be accepted as a person regardless of looks. At the end of the day we all end up the same and grey and old and wrinkly! I hope you can start to believe in yourself and not put yourself down purely on the physical. Im sure ur a beautiful person both inside and out, and am sure your more than worth getting to know. Ur prince charming will be just around the corner. Take care xx


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

I thought there were some outstanding points made in this thread:

*Ape in Space said: Getting a partner is ALL about talking.*

This is what I've been trying to preach in these threads. Someone can be ugly as sin and still rack up b/fs or g/fs if they are talkative. Talking is more important than financial status and looks. This is especially true if you are a guy.

*Originally Posted by KennethJones * 
_*This is only true if you are a man. Being a woman, you always have options regardless of your situation.

Also there is really no such thing as an ugly woman - that is a myth. Only men can be "ugly". * *

Ive been on this planet for 25 years and ive never seen a woman that was ugly or so unattractive that getting a mate would be out of the realm of possibility.

*_This is so true. People hate hearing what you wrote here just because the dating world's reality sucks. Men are desperate and women use the men as toys. Women have the power.

What's sad is that men have gotten to the point where they are starting to call ugly women average-looking, and now they are calling average-looking women attractive. Men throw their standards out the window because it's the only way they'll get laid in this lopsided, women-controlled dating world.


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## ChubbyFish (Jan 8, 2011)

I think if anything this thread really shows just how misunderstood each sex is while both sides think they're getting it. 

Women think men have complete freedom and just get to pick and choose as they wish and are completely blind to any of the pressures that do face them (come one girls can you really tell me you dont see any pressure in having to be the "dominant sex", to risk rejection multiple times, to be expected to make the first move all the time?) 

The whole "no ugly women" thing completely baffles me. Besides never hearing it before, it's seems (and I no its not meant to be) dismissive to the self images issues that almost all women face. I dont think men get that just because men might not see a woman as unattractive doesn't mean she doesn't see it this way. I also really dont think most women feel like they have the power in the dating world, especially when you have SAD. It's easy to see why you can feel dependent on your looks when you dont feel like you can open up personally with people. 

You guys must have gotten seriously screwed over too many times or have had a really twisted interpretation of their action. :/ either way I hope you all can find someone really great for you through the mountain of asses out there.:yes


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Ape in space said:


> Ugliness, if such a thing exists, is a minor problem in comparison to SA, by which I mean that no matter how you look, you can get a girlfriend / boyfriend IF you can talk moderately well. Getting a partner is ALL about talking. No matter what 'bad' qualities you have, if you can talk to people comfortably, you almost certainly will find _someone_, eventually. Unfortunately, SA takes from us the one thing we need to find a partner.


I somewhat agree, but in some cases not having SA doesn't guarantee a partner. I know a few guys IRL, who have no SA, that struggle in the dating world. It's all about being attractive enough. Social skills, looks, being financially well off, and things like that help you be more attractive to women.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

^^^^^

Pretty much agree (I kinda fit in the *Lost Soul* lol), having all the required qualities help tremendously and guarantees you a relationship. Sometimes it takes a good look in the mirror to realize that girls don't dig losers. If a guy really is unattractive and can't get a girl to save his life then he needs to change and work on himself to be more attractive. The problem is that most guys, like me, don't have the determination to work hard to change and be more attractive.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

I'd fall in the beta male category. 

Something I'd like to point out is that ugliness can come in different ways. I don't consider myself as physically unattractive, but I do consider my Social Anxiety Disorder as extremely unattractive. I do believe someone can have ugly body language, and that shyness can make someone ugly in the minds of the people that are around them. I fall into that category.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

I don't think I'm mirror-shatteringly ugly, but yeah the looks are nothing to talk about either.

I do have social skills (as in I can hold conversations, show people a good time etc.), a sense of humour, confidence, and a very strong personality. Unfortunately, the adjectives people have used to describe me include arrogant, cold, intimidating (I dunno how they get that, I'm 5' 8" and 140 lbs), hostile, contemptuous, and generally difficult to talk to. Which isn't very endearing, obviously. And of course, that means no social life.

Money? I don't have a lot of it, I'm a salaried guy. But usually there is no shortage of it. I and am independent, but at the moment I'm having some trouble with money, mostly due to depression affecting my job performance.

So, I kind of do come across as relatively "normal", but I have a whole host of issues just below the calm exterior.

Also, "normal" is not good enough. You have to have something that sets you apart from the norm.


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## Still Waters (Sep 18, 2008)

^ Hey,is this a new development? Glad you're back joinmartin!


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

Still Waters said:


> ^ Hey,is this a new development? Glad you're back joinmartin!


What I was thinking


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

joinmartin said:


> Did the girls remark about the guys looks? Nope. Did they remark about his status? No they did not. Did the girls remark about whether the guy may or may not be an alpha male? No, they did not.
> 
> The girls who saw the first (positive) video liked the guy and all but one of the girls (who had a different type when it came to men) would date him. The girls who saw the second video where the guy was being slightly more negative but reading the same words as in the first video universally said they would not date him.
> 
> ...


This is more or less what I was trying to say. You mention two reasons I've had practically no success with women. I have an ugly, depressed, shy personality and I haven't gone out enough throughout my life.

Just so you know, I agree with maybe half of what TFL preaches. I think looks matter, but looks are less important than money once you get into your mid-20s and above that age. The most important qualities a man has to have to get a woman is a social life and a social personality.

TFL takes it too far in their videos. I think those guys have gotten to the point where they hate women. I am not like that. That doesn't mean half of the things they are saying aren't true.

You can't tell me the dating world is equal for each sex, because it clearly is not. It's tilted in the ladies' favor to the extreme. Gender roles remain dominant. The guy is supposed to ask out the girl out. And because of that social norm, the shy men are weeded out of the dating world if they aren't social enough.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that women care more about men having social lives, than men care about women having social lives. Women also care about men having money more than men care about women having money. Shy men are statistically prone to being more poor and having less friends than outgoing men.

So, am I partially to blame for my lack of dating success? Yeah, you are right about that. But you can't tell me it's all my fault. Like I just explained, the dating world is set up so I'm the underdog, so it's harder for me than any other type of personality/sex. The dating world is set up so I can't be shy. Tell me how that is fair, when women are allowed to be shy.


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## gomenne (Oct 3, 2009)

I don't think looks have to do with dating at all. I see lots of really not good looking people even married !!
I think everyone should just accept the fact that companionship isn't meant for everyone, otherwise loneliness wouldn't exist.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

IcemanKilmer said:


> This is more or less what I was trying to say. You mention two reasons I've had practically no success with women. I have an ugly, depressed, shy personality and I haven't gone out enough throughout my life.
> 
> Just so you know, I agree with maybe half of what TFL preaches. I think looks matter, but looks are less important than money once you get into your mid-20s and above that age. The most important qualities a man has to have to get a woman is a social life and a social personality.





IcemanKilmer said:


> I think it's society's fault that you and I have been ignored. Women learn at a young age that men will just come up and talk to them, and that it's okay to be passive.
> 
> This goes back a long way. Men have always been the aggressive sex. It's nature. Our species are designed for the men to be aggressive, and women to be passive.
> 
> ...


I think it's more then just society but that is true. I don't blame god. But you have to understand that this is one of the worst things that can happen, albeit to a male. I'm one of the rare males in this world that it's happened to. Being hurt by it emotionally is natural and that is how I feel.

I wasn't told to buzz off, or go away, or called ugly or creepy. Well, not exactly. I was simply seen as non-existant. And I just find that very, very strict to do to someone. See. That's the problem with society. Nobody is friendly. Culture isn't social. America isn't social. I've talked about this before a bit. How society is very isolated and closed off, like Steve Hoca says in his videos. I agree when he says that America is a socially disconnected society and it's part of the root of why so many social issues for certain people are in existance.

*Where do situations like this leave the males who aren't or aren't able to be aggressive?*

I didn't ask to be ignored my whole life by them. When I say this I don't mean I've just been told to buzz off, or go away, or anything like that. I'm talking about being invisible to them, and not being acknowledged or seen as friendship material. I do not exist to them. This is how I describe it. And not being able to socialize with females and for them to not want to be simple friends with me. It's like, waking up and then you just know what to expect from there on out. Like you don't know what it's like to do something, and then you finally do and you have a bad experience with it. From then on out, you know what to expect. You are now damaged in some way by the result of what happened. That is how I feel. It will never go away.

Waking up every single day and being constantly reminded that you have had no social life for the last 6+ years, and no friends of the opposite sex is a terrible reality to live with. Maybe I am the only person on this planet who thinks that though. You can do anything to try and fix it. anything to get it off your mind. Take meds. Therapy. Escapism. I see this as counter-productive in some ways. Because, it's not going to change the reality. You're still alone and miserable.

Am I a bad person for feeling this way from the result of what has transpired in this situation so far in my life ice? What is it supposed to mean? nothing? I have emotions and feelings. If something bad happens to me that's personal and that affects me emotionally, it's going to hurt me. I'm only human. I agree very much with what you've said in the other thread about treating others the way you want to be treated. I think you posted that and I couldn't agree more.

As the human race, we tend to have this mentality in us that will make us treat others bad, and then, when someone treats US that way, we understand how the person WE treated bad felt. It's like karma. Which I think is a common christian belief. I think certain things in life are pre-determined for each individual human being and our destinies can be controlled to a point.

Nobody's perfect on this planet.

Everyone has flaws.

But again, we all have this mentality that we can use other people's flaws against them, and not have our own flaws used against us. This mentality is in high activity in today's society. I do think some people stand by it more then others. Everyone is like this. I guarantee it.

Here is one his good videos:






Joinmartin, what do you mean by TFL pyschophants? None of those guys are on this site. But like iceman I do agree that the overall message they are trying to get across (minus the politics and the sun tan incident and government conspiracies) is accurate. The fact that stereotypes and double standards and stereotyping is alive and well in our society today and it hurts some people to where they feel like they are alone with no hope.

There are 2 women in their movement as well. Did you know this already?


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

Stranger25, I think you misunderstood my intention by my post. By no means am I saying you have no right to feel sad. You have every right to be upset about your situation. 

Don't forget, I'm practically in the same situation as you. You bring up a great point, that it's not just dating, but the real dagger is that most women ignore us to the point that we can't even be friends with them.

You're right. Meds don't do the trick. The only option I can think of is to become an alcoholic, but that would be extremely expensive for someone like me and would destroy my liver. Even if I was drunk all the time, I still would be anti-social for the most part. I found that I was about as quiet as I normally am during most times I was drunk around people. Plus, how could a hold a job down when being an alcoholic? I couldn't.

Stanger25, of course you aren't a bad person. I really hope I didn't come across that way. I hope you understand that I'm agreeing with practically everything you wrote on your post that I'm responding to.

As for America being anti-social compared to other countries, I can't elaborate on that because i've never been to other countries for long periods of time. 

You're right, people are quick to blame other people before they blame themselves. Human nature.


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## PLarry (Apr 2, 2011)

*Brave New World*



IcemanKilmer said:


> I'd fall in the beta male category.


Ahhh, deprived a little oxygen in the tube I see.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

PLarry said:


> Ahhh, deprived a little oxygen in the tube I see.


Wasn't it alcohol in the blood surrogate?

lol

Good call.

How could I forget about that novel....


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

True uglyness is on the inside.
SA doesn't make you a bad person on the inside automatically.
And beauty is subjective. 
If you listen to what people say and not your own opinion it will drive you nuts.
You know how many people have tried to call me ugly and others call me words so nice that I feel I don't even deserve.. it gets too confusing if you give people that power. I look good enough for me, beautiful for me, and that is all. I think that is an attitude people need because then you smile and your true beauty comes out. It allows you to be yourself and more approachable.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

Two old timer threads revived today. All I can say is I sound good in my posts.

I am definitely egotistical. I love myself more than anybody.


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## Mr Blues (Apr 1, 2011)

Single rognel single prongle **** it


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

In a world where Michael Moore is married and many good looking people aren't, you can't play the evolution card. 

Even Susan Boyle finally went on dates!


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

WintersTale said:


> In a world where Michael Moore is married and many good looking people aren't, you can't play the evolution card.
> 
> Even Susan Boyle finally went on dates!


Fame trumps everything.

Also, I'm no hottie, but I lucked out and have someone (for the time being at least). So, ugliness is not that much of a handicap.


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## Hello22 (Feb 10, 2010)

I dont agree that women have more of a chance of a date. 

In my experience, i have hardly dated anyone, and i'm rarely approached. Of the times i am approached, the guy is usually looking for a one night stand/ he is complicated and wants to play me like a toy and keep his options open/ or is too drunk to care what i look like. 
None of this appeals to me. And i'm dead right, why should i lower my standards for someone like that?

I would rather be single than put up with that dating *******s nonsense that alot of people settle for. 

Imo guys seem to get dates quicker than ladies, esp in this country. 

And what really annoyed me last week was that someone pointed out at work that every single girl that has started at work has had guys flirting with them or have been asked out on a date. 
Yet i haven't. 

^ this goes to show that unattractive girls don't have the same opportunity as all ladies.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Hello, stranger and Iceman won't listen to that. Plenty of other girls have tried arguing that, and they won't listen.

You might as well as say hi to that nice brick wall over there. "Hi wall, how are you?" "I am fine." "Have you always been so red, wall?"


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## Donnie in the Dark (Mar 15, 2011)

I guess we like to talk up our disadvantage...and many of us don't like hearing that yes, while others may find it easier, we still have a good chance of finding "someone"- because that suggests possible risk and prolonged failure.
But hey, I'm young and I'm game!


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Hello22 said:


> I dont agree that women have more of a chance of a date.
> 
> In my experience, i have hardly dated anyone, and i'm rarely approached. Of the times i am approached, the guy is usually looking for a one night stand/ he is complicated and wants to play me like a toy and keep his options open/ or is too drunk to care what i look like.
> None of this appeals to me. And i'm dead right, why should i lower my standards for someone like that?
> ...


really? Fat girls are at the same level as average women. Just as he says, go out in publlic and women are disconnected, maybe even soul-less.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> really? Fat girls are at the same level as average women. Just as he says, go out in publlic and women are disconnected, maybe even soul-less.


Well, Hoca does take it to the extreme here. What Hoca means is that when you hit on a woman, you are "just another guy hitting on her" in her eyes. I wouldn't call these women soul-less, that sounds harsh.

I think most women just get sick of men coming up to them. I think it goes to what you said, many women are the supermodel mentality types, no guy is ever good enough for them. What happens is they turn every guy down because they try to find one thing they don't like with him, which is easy because every guy has flaws.

Eventually what happens with these women is they realize that they are never going to find the perfect guy because her expectations are unrealistic, so they finally just wait for a guy that is good looking enough, social enough and well off enough financially, and they settle for him.


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## PLarry (Apr 2, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> I didn't ask to be ignored my whole life by them. When I say this I don't mean I've just been told to buzz off, or go away, or anything like that. I'm talking about being invisible to them, and not being acknowledged or seen as friendship material. I do not exist to them. This is how I describe it. And not being able to socialize with females and for them to not want to be simple friends with me. It's like, waking up and then you just know what to expect from there on out. Like you don't know what it's like to do something, and then you finally do and you have a bad experience with it. From then on out, you know what to expect. You are now damaged in some way by the result of what happened. That is how I feel. It will never go away.


I have all the answers. Prepare for a mind f***.

There are a billion people out there, many of which want the same things as you. If someone is not your friend and you ask "why not?" then the question that immediately should follow is "why?". Rather, why is it that you and I are not friends? Or you and any number of what are female SAS members not friends? and then why should you be? 
I know what you want. And I know there are steps to getting it. But don't let your despair and bad experiences rot your life. Bitter times may turn to wasted times.

What ties people to you and what is keeping you apart?

If you can give an answer to these questions, then we can help you find solutions.

Also,



stranger25 said:


> really? Fat girls are at the same level as average women. Just as he says, go out in publlic and women are disconnected, maybe even soul-less.


Red Flag. Unsportsmanlike conduct. 2 minutes in the penalty box. 
Not cool dude, not cool.


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## rctriplefresh5 (Aug 24, 2009)

lonely metalhead said:


> SA has definitely made it hard for me to get a girlfriend or make a regular friend for that matter but as far as physical attractiveness I do alright but AS has to come in and ruin everything. And also as an aspireing biologist I can say that SA might be a "bad" evolutionary trait as far as passing on genetics but not much and as far a physical attractiveness goes its important today but not an evolutionary necessity its survival of the fittest not survival of the prettiest. But still I understand where your coming from


as?


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## Donnie in the Dark (Mar 15, 2011)

PLarry said:


> I have all the answers. Prepare for a mind f***.
> 
> There are a billion people out there, many of which want the same things as you. If someone is not your friend and you ask "why not?" then the question that immediately should follow is "why?". Rather, why is it that you and I are not friends? Or you and any number of what are female SAS members not friends? and then why should you be?
> I know what you want. And I know there are steps to getting it. But don't let your despair and bad experiences rot your life. Bitter times may turn to wasted times.
> ...


 Good post, i agree.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

PLarry said:


> I have all the answers. Prepare for a mind f***.
> 
> There are a billion people out there, many of which want the same things as you. If someone is not your friend and you ask "why not?" then the question that immediately should follow is "why?". Rather, why is it that you and I are not friends? Or you and any number of what are female SAS members not friends? and then why should you be?
> I know what you want. And I know there are steps to getting it. But don't let your despair and bad experiences rot your life. Bitter times may turn to wasted times.
> ...


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

IcemanKilmer said:


> What happens is they turn every guy down because they try to find one thing they don't like with him, which is easy because every guy has flaws.
> 
> Eventually what happens with these women is they realize that they are never going to find the perfect guy because her expectations are unrealistic, so they finally just wait for a guy that is good looking enough, social enough and well off enough financially, and they settle for him.


Guys do these things as well. It could be a very good reason why most guy's on this site are perpetually single, amongst other factors.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

rdrr said:


> Guys do these things as well. It could be a very good reason why most guy's on this site are perpetually single, amongst other factors.


And there it is again yet again, another attempt at finding some mythical reason why _Socially Anxious_ guys can't get a date. You think it's because our expectations are too high??

No, my friend. In fact, from reading most male posters on here, SA guys expectations are lower than most other guys' expectations. All most guys on here want is a woman that will give them companionship. That's it.

You see, these guys aren't shallow and ask whether a woman has a job or a social life, friends or a social personality, or social confidence. All most men care about on this site is that a woman will just be there for them.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

IcemanKilmer said:


> And there it is again yet again, another attempt at finding some mythical reason why _Socially Anxious_ guys can't get a date. You think it's because our expectations are too high??
> 
> No, my friend. In fact, from reading most male posters on here, SA guys expectations are lower than most other guys' expectations. All most guys on here want is a woman that will give them companionship. That's it.
> 
> You see, these guys aren't shallow and ask whether a woman has a job or a social life, friends or a social personality, or social confidence. All most men care about on this site is that a woman will just be there for them.


What good is playing the victim and pointing out facts, when you seem to know the answers? Its not a zero-sum game. You either fight to find your place or sit idly and wait for the train that may never come.

Guys on this site do get dates and do find relationships. You didnt mention anything about looks; where I feel most people's judgements are skewed and shallow. Im sure many guys here CAN hypothetically get a date if they truly tried, but negative beliefs on why they arent hold them back. The same can be said for the women.

I do not agree with the hypothesis that all women want social confident rich alpha males, who are 'hot'. Do you truly believe all women are that shallow?


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

rdrr said:


> What good is playing the victim and pointing out facts, when you seem to know the answers? Its not a zero-sum game. You either fight to find your place or sit idly and wait for the train that may never come.
> 
> Guys on this site do get dates and do find relationships. You didnt mention anything about looks; where I feel most people's judgements are skewed and shallow. Im sure many guys here CAN hypothetically get a date if they truly tried, but negative beliefs on why they arent hold them back. The same can be said for the women.
> 
> I do not agree with the hypothesis that all women want social confident rich alpha males, who are 'hot'. Do you truly believe all women are that shallow?


You're on the ball.
Negativity + SA = hopelessly single
Ugliness + SA != hopelessly single


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

rdrr said:


> What good is playing the victim and pointing out facts, when you seem to know the answers? Its not a zero-sum game. You either fight to find your place or sit idly and wait for the train that may never come.
> 
> Guys on this site do get dates and do find relationships. You didnt mention anything about looks; where I feel most people's judgements are skewed and shallow. Im sure many guys here CAN hypothetically get a date if they truly tried, but negative beliefs on why they arent hold them back. The same can be said for the women.
> 
> I do not agree with the hypothesis that all women want social confident rich alpha males, who are 'hot'. Do you truly believe all women are that shallow?


I do believe that most women are that shallow.

I agree that sitting idly and not doing a thing will get you nowhere, male or female, that is a fact.

My view on looks is average looking women are hot according to most men in society nowadays because men are so desperate.

I think women's views on looks aren't skewed except for when they see a shy guy. Women tend to have a basic view on looks, but when they see any kind of personality disorder they will view a man as having at least some ugliness.

I notice you say rich, lol, which is not what I'm saying. Women don't need a rich guy, but most of their expectations on a man are high, just having a full time minimum wage job isn't enough for most of them nowadays.

It is true that all people on here, male or female can get a date hypothetically as you said. The problem lies with women being harder to get for the men due to women's higher expectations.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

kathy903 said:


> You're on the ball.
> Negativity + SA = hopelessly single
> Ugliness + SA != hopelessly single


Attractiveness is subjective. Some people can be generally attractive to most, but most arent. Yes, if you lack any social confidence and feel you are generally unattractive to most, this can make one feel hopeless.

But doing nothing about things you dont like about yourself is not good either. it is difficult to have social confidence in yourself if you are constantly thinking about how ugly you may think you are. In that case, that mindset must change if you are ever going to get what you desire.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

This kind of question has no specific answer and will never have a specific answer because everyone is different in some way or the other and also in a different point of their lives.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

survival of the sexiest. :roll


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

rdrr said:


> Attractiveness is subjective. Some people can be generally attractive to most, but most arent. Yes, if you lack any social confidence and feel you are generally unattractive to most, this can make one feel hopeless.
> 
> But doing nothing about things you dont like about yourself is not good either. it is difficult to have social confidence in yourself if you are constantly thinking about how ugly you may think you are. In that case, that mindset must change if you are ever going to get what you desire.


I agree attractiveness is subjective.
Here:
People who feel they are ugly + SA != hopelessly alone
negativity + SA = hopelessly alone


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

kathy903 said:


> You're on the ball.
> Negativity + SA = hopelessly single
> Ugliness + SA != hopelessly single


Uh huh.

Whatever lets you sleep at night.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

stranger25 said:


>


Bill looks stoned and freaky as usual. :teeth


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

IcemanKilmer said:


> IMy view on looks is average looking women are hot according to most men in society nowadays because men are so desperate.
> 
> ...
> 
> It is true that all people on here, male or female can get a date hypothetically as you said. The problem lies with women being harder to get for the men due to women's higher expectations.


Dead on the mark, despite all the attempts to brand you as crazy or irrationally negative.

As George Carlin used to say in his stand-up routines, our language often gives us away. In this case, the language that's typically used in conversations about dating and in the advice given to lonely guys gives away the legitimacy of your premise: that women are harder to "get" than men; that their standards and expectations are higher, on average.

It's funny. There are all these women on SAS who would have us believe they're in exactly the same boat as us. Then they turn around and use language that unmistakably stems from a sense of entitlement and unrealistically high self-worth; as if she's the "prize" to be won by a man who satisfactorily impresses her. Think about this: how often do you see women starting threads inquiring on how to impress or win over a man? Oh, that's right: almost never. I wonder why that is. I mean, obviously, it couldn't possibly be that they usually don't have to do much at all to have five guys chasing them simultaneously as long as they're average-looking.

The worst part for us is that you can't really blame women for this state of affairs. The number of uber desperate men willing to fight to the death over chicks of average appearance, average intelligence, and average everything else is what ultimately allows this to be. The supply and demand are all out of whack.

Biology sucks.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

IcemanKilmer said:


> And there it is again yet again, another attempt at finding some mythical reason why _Socially Anxious_ guys can't get a date. You think it's because our expectations are too high??
> 
> No, my friend. In fact, from reading most male posters on here, SA guys expectations are lower than most other guys' expectations. All most guys on here want is a woman that will give them companionship. That's it.
> 
> You see, these guys aren't shallow and ask whether a woman has a job or a social life, friends or a social personality, or social confidence. All most men care about on this site is that a woman will just be there for them.


That's the canned propaganda response a dateless male gets..."you're standards are too high". That's nonsense because we all know even fat girls have options today (usually SKINNY average guys) (PROOF that hypergamy exists, btw). Like Mr. Hoca said, you hardly see the fat or ugly girls with the ugly guys today.

Super good looking women date billionaires, millionaires, and famous actors

Really good looking girls date really good looking guys

Average looking girls still date the really good looking girls

and ugly girls date average guys (although this is beginning to become a true rarity, considering their power in the dating scene gets stronger all the time)

but then comes the question, what happens to....guys that are ugly? Here's what. Ugly girls won't date ugly guys and fat girls won't date ugly guys. What's up with that? So in other words it's like we have this HUGE population of undesireable males who I think no less than 10% will never find a woman.

when I say ugly it could mean ugly physically or mentally, since that's how alot of women see it.

He's ugly because his face is ugly and he's unemployed. And so on.

It's very hard for an average guy to get an average girl now. I mean even average girls have their pick of the litter. It's insane.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I'd like to see how ugly guys get no love?

Like I've said before, I've seen ugly guys with hot girls, and hot guys who are perpetually single. 

You get what you give. If you give nothing, you deserve nothing.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

plastics said:


> You can be as pretty or good looking as you want, but if you are freakin' boring, or have no humor, or any confidence, you aren't going to get someone..


if thats true" what a waste of physical attributes. :sus
I dont think its hopeless like a brain disorder like schizophrenia or helpless case of a brain tumor but sometimes mental disorders can inhibit you from getting what you want. Ive never ever seen an ugly guy with a pretty good looking lady. it seems to be the similar attractiveness theory that i see in public. what we need is hope and courage


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## voospenvi2734 (Dec 2, 2010)

Dont mean to burst your bubble, but for many people attractiveness doesnt matter much at all. And lucky for you, most of those people are females. So ya it still sucks that you have social anxiety, but the physical attractiveness thing aint that big a deal. And I'm not even saying it just to make you feel not so bad; it's totally true. I've exlerienced it first hand. Plus, I try to be one of those people who don't care about looks. I admit sometimes I fail. But it seems that most people who try to look past just looks are better, kinder people. I don't know about you, but they're the kind of people I would want to be in a relationship with.


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## hyg (Jun 24, 2011)

I've seen too many people whine about how ugly they think they are, and I've yet to see one I actually think is ugly. I can't say I'm any better because sometimes I do feel really hideous, and I don't have much relationship experience either.. but I've never let it bother me too much because I try to look at things that I can change instead of getting depressed over things that I can't. I also tend to value friendships over relationships.. maybe that's why my luck isn't so great :lol


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> That's nonsense because we all know even fat girls have options today (usually SKINNY average guys) (PROOF that hypergamy exists, btw).
> 
> He's ugly because his face is ugly and he's unemployed. And so on.
> 
> I mean even average girls have their pick of the litter. It's insane.


It's extremely depressing when you look at the dating world. Totally lopsided. It's evolved into a sausage fest. Just look at online dating, over a 2:1 ratio of men to women....ridiculous.

It's basically a bunch of desperate guys with little to no standards for women and then women sitting back with their pick of their litter and taking full advantage of their right to be picky.

I think a perfect stat to prove how out of control men are in relationships is the divorce initiator statistic. Women in the USA initiate the divorce a whopping 66% of the time. 2/3rds of every failed marriage lies in the hands of a woman.

This just goes to show you that men are lucky now to be in a relationship and are terrified of leaving of a marriage because they know how insanely hard it is to get another woman. It also proves that women have absolutely nothing to worry about if they break up with their man, because there are hundreds of men waiting in line to date her next.

That is very true, average looking women have their pick of their litter. They have a ton of options. It's so tilted now, that average-looking women are being called smoking hot by many men nowadays. It's because most men have literally altered their perception of looks due to desperation. It's kind of like most men are walking around with beer goggles while sober. The more they realize they have no chance with attractive women, the more they lower their standards in looks, and will even convince themselves they are attracted to a woman just because she's a woman they might be able to get with, with looks not even mattering in many cases.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

I have 0 options while all the girls on here have 2,000 options at any given time.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

stranger25 said:


> I have 0 options while all the girls on here have 2,000 options at any given time.


Since you're talking nonsense, why not pretend the girls have over 9000 options?

But really, you have 2 options. Let go of all the exaggerated theories regarding why you're single and get out and live your life, or, keep on keeping on with the paranoid rambligs of the TFL crowd. Really is that simple. One option gives you a chance to find out for yourself, the other gives you no chance at all.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> I have 0 options while all the girls on here have 2,000 options at any given time.


You have more than zero options, but you are definitely right that women have way more options than you, just because you are a guy.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

The entire dating scene is corrupt and rigged in favor of women. All they want is money and looks and the bad boy personality. That's not love, that's materialistic and fake.


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## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

I hate these threads with a passion.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> The entire dating scene is corrupt and rigged in favor of women. All they want is money and looks and the bad boy personality. That's not love, that's materialistic and fake.


Like I said before, most women date a man for what he can give the woman to suit her own selfish needs (Social status, financial status, bragging rights to her friends and family). To most women, it's not about who a man is on the inside, it's all what he can give _her_ on the outside.

It's not love, it's self-centered and egotistical.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

IcemanKilmer said:


> Like I said before, most women date a man for what he can give the woman to suit her own selfish needs (Social status, financial status, bragging rights to her friends and family). To most women, it's not about who a man is on the inside, it's all what he can give _her_ on the outside.
> 
> It's not love, it's self-centered and egotistical.


Yup, and that's what I hate. Then after they get dumped when their looks fade by those same rich bad boys, they say "there's no good guys out there". But at the same time, you have millions of men out there in their 20's who never had a girlfriend in their whole entire life who are desperate and depressed beyond recognition, who write these huge long 5 page articles on the internet saying they want to end their lives and how even prostitutes reject them, and joining involuntary celibacy movements (male issue). It's insane. It's an injustice to a large portion of men on this earth. It's almost like some kind of male genocide plot. Let's look at male suicide rates. 15%-25% in every country. Yet, women are only 5%. Could it be because of this 3rd wave of feminism? Male bashing, and where society puts women on a pedestal and treats men like 3rd rate citizens. "I can't get a date, because women keep stereotyping me". Response is: Get over it. Go change yourself some more. Girl says "I can't get a date, men think I'm ugly". Response is: Those evil men. It's like we've been programmed to be misandrist, and treat men like soul-less things that don't have feelings of their own. I blame society for that part. Society has led us all to believe that men are tough, bad boys, when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The truth is men have feelings too, anf Involuntary Celibacy is a real thing that's affecting more men then ever before. 1-3 in 10 men are incel. All because of wanting something "better". Nobody's better than anyone.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

_Snarky comment by me removed.

_I hate these threads, too.

I have no experience, but I can't hate the opposite sex. And I am of the belief system that nobody can make you lonely, if you don't want to be.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

IcemanKilmer said:


> Like I said before, most women date a man for what he can give the woman to suit her own selfish needs (Social status, financial status, bragging rights to her friends and family). To most women, it's not about who a man is on the inside, it's all what he can give _her_ on the outside.
> 
> It's not love, it's self-centered and egotistical.


Another good point here.

I've spent a lot of time wondering how different the fundamental nature of male vs. female attraction might be. Not simply "what turns us on" -- but _why_ we're "turned on" or attracted to someone to begin with. Is it strictly about the other person, or is it about externalities?

Honestly, it seems like you're onto something, and it could help to explain why we perceive women as having "higher standards."

The best way I can describe my frustration on this subject is that I feel like I desire a woman, fundamentally, for _who she is_ -- her personality, her looks, etc. Things which will benefit me strictly in the sense that her companionship and physical contact with me will be enjoyable. It never has anything to do with what she will bring me materially or socially -- nothing external to my relationship with her alone.

I dare say this is unusual for women. Not completely unheard of, but unusual. My hunch is that they care noticeably more, on average, about what the man brings to the table for her social and financial life. Even in cases that aren't quite that superficial, it may be something as simple as wanting a man who makes her feel "safe and secure and wanted" -- which I consider to be an externality, as well. I mean, as nice as it would be to feel wanted by a woman who's considered a "catch" by society, that's not the primary reason I desire a relationship.

I remember someone else recently summing it up in this way: women aren't so much in love with the man as they are in love with the way the man makes them feel. That's probably too simplistic and generalized, but I think I understand and recognize the source of that sentiment.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

anomalous said:


> Another good point here.
> 
> I've spent a lot of time wondering how different the fundamental nature of male vs. female attraction might be. Not simply "what turns us on" -- but _why_ we're "turned on" or attracted to someone to begin with. Is it strictly about the other person, or is it about externalities?
> 
> ...


Very good stuff you have here. Your views are practically identical to mine on this subject.

When I actually did figure this "most women want the outside of a man" stuff out, I got very depressed. I realized that most women are attracted to the exterior of the guy (What kind of reputation he can give her, if he's a "catch" or not, his financial status, social status), not who he is deep inside his soul. The good thing is this doesn't mean guys like us won't find a woman that will love us for who we are on the inside, because there are woman out there are capable of true love, it's just they are a minority of women.

Have you ever noticed how a woman usually goes to her friends to ask if a guy is right for her? Men don't do that nearly as much. It's as if most women can't think for themselves. They constantly need reassurance, such as compliments.

I found this out firsthand when I was in a relationship with a woman. She would live off her friends' advice throughout the entire relationship. It was as if she wasn't going out with me because her bond with her friends was way more important than her bond with me.

Everything had to be okayed through her crew. And this was a girl that had gone out with guys before, it's not like she needed that much help. The worst was when she had a meeting with her friends and they convinced her to break up with me.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> Yup, and that's what I hate. Then after they get dumped when their looks fade by those same rich bad boys, they say "there's no good guys out there". But at the same time, you have millions of men out there in their 20's who never had a girlfriend in their whole entire life who are desperate and depressed beyond recognition, who write these huge long 5 page articles on the internet saying they want to end their lives and how even prostitutes reject them, and joining involuntary celibacy movements (male issue). It's insane. It's an injustice to a large portion of men on this earth. It's almost like some kind of male genocide plot. Let's look at male suicide rates. 15%-25% in every country. Yet, women are only 5%. Could it be because of this 3rd wave of feminism? Male bashing, and where society puts women on a pedestal and treats men like 3rd rate citizens. "I can't get a date, because women keep stereotyping me". Response is: Get over it. Go change yourself some more. Girl says "I can't get a date, men think I'm ugly". Response is: Those evil men. It's like we've been programmed to be misandrist, and treat men like soul-less things that don't have feelings of their own. I blame society for that part. Society has led us all to believe that men are tough, bad boys, when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The truth is men have feelings too, anf Involuntary Celibacy is a real thing that's affecting more men then ever before. 1-3 in 10 men are incel. All because of wanting something "better". Nobody's better than anyone.


It's just all one huge double standard. Most people try to convince a male that is struggling with dating that he's a loser and is not man enough, then when a woman struggles with dating (which is rarer), she gets consoled and told it's not her fault because guys are jerks.

What's happened is society has evolved into this "men are evil jerks that just want to get laid" society, and now that feminism has flourished and warped most people's minds, it's become "cool" to treat shy men like crap. It's just, "Well, you're a guy, so you have to be an alpha male, and if you aren't, everything you fail at in life socially and intimately is your fault."


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

^Women have this mentality at bars. Last weekend me and a friend were sitting outside at a bar and two drunk girls were about to sit at our table and then looked at us and said, "Oh hell no! Creepers!" and then walked off. Then some sober girl came along and they sat at our table still talking trash. Meanwhile we never said one word to them. I see this at bars a lot. A lot of women stereotype you off the bat at bars and disrespect you for no reason. Bars are a waste of time and a waste of a man's dignity while women are glorified in many instances there.

I'm not against women but I'm just stating what I've seen. To be fair, I understand not all women are like this but I've experienced really cruel women at bars. That place is horrid. being called a "creep" for being a guy is like me seeing a girl and calling her a *****. It's ignorant and reflects the lack of depth of the individual. The people who choose to stereotype are as ignorant as a raciest or bigot and belong in the same category in my opinion. These instances shouldn't be encouraged but they are for those stupid enough to go along with them, and they are many.

If a woman treats me badly I will either defend myself or ignore her completely. She can continue to live her little delusion, but wait till time catches up with her. Some people don't learn until it finally does, and some either don't care to learn or are dumb enough to never catch on.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Wow


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> ^Women have this mentality at bars. Last weekend me and a friend were sitting outside at a bar and two drunk girls were about to sit at our table and then looked at us and said, "Oh hell no! Creepers!" and then walked off. Then some sober girl came along and they sat at our table still talking trash. Meanwhile we never said one word to them. I see this at bars a lot. A lot of women stereotype you off the bat at bars and disrespect you for no reason. Bars are a waste of time and a waste of a man's dignity while women are glorified in many instances there.
> 
> I'm not against women but I'm just stating what I've seen. To be fair, I understand not all women are like this but I've ran really cruel women at bars. That place is horrid. being called a "creep" for being a guy is like me seeing a girl and calling her a *****. It's ignorant and reflects the lack of depth of the individual. The people who choose to stereotype are as ignorant as a raciest or bigot and belong in the same category in my opinion. These instances shouldn't be encouraged but they are for those stupid enough to do along with them, and they are many.
> 
> If a woman treats me badly I will either defend myself or ignore her completely. She can continue to live her little delusion, but wait till time catches up with her. Some people don't learn until it finally does.


I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Your experience reminds me of this job I had at a restaurant where I worked around a bunch of women co-workers. They kept calling me wuss, fa--ot, and bi--h, stuff like that.

I've noticed that most women judge guys and say what's on their minds about your personality more than men do. It's because it's not like you can do anything about it physically. What are you going to do, hit a girl?

Like what you mentioned, many women relate shyness to loserness or creepiness. It's why so many shy guys on this site struggle to get dates, because most women look at us as at the bottom of the social ladder.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Physical appearance and character mean a lot to sexual relationships. This shouldn't be a hard thing to grasp.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

IcemanKilmer said:


> I'm sorry you had to go through that.
> 
> Your experience reminds me of this job I had at a restaurant where I worked around a bunch of women co-workers. They kept calling me wuss, fa--ot, and bi--h, stuff like that.
> 
> ...


I'm not about misogyny at all and I don't think women belong in a "group". I'm talking about ignorant women, but there are ignorant men as well. It is dangerous to say women are "X,Y,Z" because you end up doing the same thing your ridiculing them for. It's hypocritical.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Physical characteristics gets the woman's attention sometimez but how you look determines what level of girls you attract I think


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> I'm not about misogyny at all and I don't think women belong in a "group". I'm talking about ignorant women, but there are ignorant men as well. It is dangerous to say women are "X,Y,Z" because you end up doing the same thing your ridiculing them for. It's hypocritical.


There hasn't been one time I ever called a woman a bi--h, pu--y or wuss. How am I being hypocritical?

Where are you getting misogyny from? I never said you or I hate women, because we don't.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Physical characteristics gets the woman's attention sometimez but how you look determines what level of girls you attract I think


Explain the difference between "how you look" and "physical characteristics" in your view. If your talking grooming with regard to how you look, then yes, that is a plus.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

IcemanKilmer said:


> There hasn't been one time I ever called a woman a bi--h, pu--y or wuss. How am I being hypocritical?
> 
> Where are you getting misogyny from? I never said you or I hate women, because we don't.


Then I apologize but it came off as if you were. The things you say about women can go for men as well. We also view women in the same light as some women view us. There isn't much a difference depending on the situation.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> Then I apologize but it came off as if you were. The things you say about women can go for men as well. We also view women in the same light as some women view us. There isn't much a difference depending on the situation.


Women call men losers _way_ more than men call women losers.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

bwidger85 said:


> Explain the difference between "how you look" and "physical characteristics" in your view. If your talking grooming with regard to how you look, then yes, that is a plus.


In my opinion looks or appearance are a shallow way of putting how you dress. Or what you wear as a gman . Good looking are your physical characteristics like eyes Nose face body complexion etc gmen have it Made because that's how they're born with good looks


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

IcemanKilmer said:


> I've noticed that most women judge guys and say what's on their minds about your personality more than men do. It's because it's not like you can do anything about it physically. What are you going to do, hit a girl?


I've noticed the same thing actually. A man can expect a fist if he says the same thing about another man as openly as a lot of women do. Women also have more "authority" to hit a man. There are those who won't put up with it though so it is a dangerous thing to gamble with.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Icemankiller, but also don't forget that women are also victim to negative comments. Look at how rap has made it "OK" to belittle women. That is only one example. It goes both ways in some instances.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> In my opinion looks or appearance are a shallow way of putting how you dress. Or what you wear as a gman . Good looking are your physical characteristics like eyes Nose face body complexion etc gmen have it Made because that's how they're born with good looks


Some people are born with good looks but have bad hygiene. Basically, the better your hygiene and physical appearance the more appealing you come across sexually. But for those who say physical appearance isn't important I would totally disagree.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 27, 2011)

IcemanKilmer said:


> *I've noticed that most women judge guys and say what's on their minds about your personality more than men do.* It's because it's not like you can do anything about it physically. What are you going to do, hit a girl?


Absolutely!! I have experienced this first-hand at least twice. My best friend's sister, who is extremely extroverted and opinionated, shocked me last summer with an unprovoked attack against my personality, and although I was really bothered by it (and still torture myself thinking about it today) I sat there and took it without reacting in any way, shape, or form.
I mean what could I do? How could I defend myself? It wouldnt matter if I argued with her until I was blue in the face...she has her mind made up about me. This is my personality we are talking about here...probably the biggest blow a person can take because you cant really change who you are! What irks me most about the situation is the ignorant generalizations. Instead of taking the time to try and understand where I am coming from and why I am the way I am (SA), she just identifies me as a soft, wimpy, inferior guy who has trouble asking girls out. Written off just like that. SA or no SA, if you lack personality, or you are too quiet, a robust dating life is not going to be easy for you. Physical attractiveness may play a slight role in 'catching someones eye' or 'striking up a conversation', but it is secondary to who you are (personality), especially when it comes to the ladies (in my experiences).


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> But for those who say physical appearance isn't important I would totally disagree.


Totally true. Saying looks don't matter is counter-productive because that discourages guys from taking care of their looks. The reason most guys are below average looking is because of their fault, for the most part. Guys are too lazy to go to the gym and are careless when they eat unhealthy snacks. Stuff like acne, bad haircuts, ugly glasses, bad clothing, are all a result of not caring, but these can all be fixed.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I don't understand why guys complain about problems, instead of *fixing them.*

Are you getting dates by being negative and critical towards women on an obscure internet forum? Is true forced loneliness changing your life, to the point where girls are now all over you? Are you making a change by believing all that crap?

If not, then why in the bloody hell are you even quoting it?

And to the people that debate the few people who are saying all this stuff, they aren't listening. They don't care about changing their opinion. You might as well be talking to a brick wall.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

^I appreciate your comments Joinmartin but my only argument is that looks do matter to a degree. I'm not saying they are everything. I guess I don't understand the philosophy stating that looks DON'T matter when it appears they do to a degree. Me for instance, just because I say looks are important as well as personality, that doesn't mean you should go off looks alone, but rather it is part of the overall package. I've read some of your previous statements about this but I am still not sure whether you rule out looks completely as a factor of attraction or not, so I'm a bit confused.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Also, I'm sorry but I have to come back and say this for all those who think looks don't matter...

Try going online and finding out for yourself. Period. End of discussion. Or would you like to say something that has little relevance to the real world?

Yes, looks matter. Yes, personality matters. If your ugly then you will have a much harder time if you have the same personality as someone who is pretty. It is the way the world works. There is no reason but delusion to keep telling yourself this isn't the case. Every now and then there is an exception to the rule, but it is rare.

Now, take the time to read this over and over until you understand it. And if you don't understand it then, read it again until you do. And if you still disagree I'd like to hear your reasons, and it better be a good because this is ridiculous.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Yes looks do matter.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

^ Wow, great video. So true.

But if this is the case, then what is the point if your physically ugly?


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> Comedian James Cordon is quite a large bloke. Has a girlfriend. Now, I know the "it has to be about the looks" crew will dismiss that by saying it's gotta be about the money the guy earns or his fame. Be interesting if they did that because then their argument becomes "it's always about the looks and they matter loads apart from when I say it's about the fame and the money...erm....erm...erm....erm..."


Yup that is always the case, I have never seen an unattractive or average guys get laid with attractive women otherwise. If you gave each bitter SA guy from here the social status and fame of a football player, or celebrity, etc. they would have no trouble at all getting laid.



> Do all girls only date men with six packs and gym toned bodies? Nope. Do all girls only date guys who are a certain weight? Nope.


True but it also depends on the other qualities a guy might possess. It also depends on how hot the girl is.



> Bad haircuts? Ugly glasses? Seriously? Get a grip. What exactly is defined as a bad haircut? You think women only date guys with one type of haircut? Seriously? Go outside into the world and actually look at what is going on.


I do look at what goes on outside the world and my observations are accurate from what I have seen. You never seem to identify something as being ugly and not ugly which makes you too positive and optimistic IMO.



> You focus on the external so much like it's your God. That you have to be this way or that way and only that way to attract all girls because all girls must be shallow and only go for guys because of some external stuff, don't they? Life has to be like a teen movie or like high school, doesn't it?


It is not a movie. All the guys that get laid have the things I'm lacking. Give me social status, social skills, and looks and I will get women easily; it is not rocket science, but it is hard to obtain.



> Apart from when it is not.
> 
> Your issue with women and people is selling yourself short based on some assumptions about external things and needing external things to be attractive.


There has never been a reason for me to not "sell myself short".



> That hinders things.
> 
> A guy does not have to be a certain way. He just has to stand up for who he actually is.
> 
> ...


What if a guy gets rejected 1000 times? Your advice is too keep trying to eventually find the good apple while getting 1000 rotten ones in the process. I think it is better to fix what is causing the girls to reject and improve/fix aspects about yourself that will make girls more attracted to you, which in turn helps your success ratio by a lot. There is always a majorities vote from girls when it comes to what they find attractive and unattractive, but you ignore this as long as the vote is at least 0.01% and not 0%.



> What would be the point of dating a girl who is only with you because she thinks you have the right haircut?
> 
> That's the girl you want? The girl who would drop you like a stone if your hair grew out of place? Wow, what a catch she must be.


stop exaggerating



> I say all of that because you will never be happy if you keep waiting to be happy and secure with yourself until you have this or that social skill, look or whatever. Take it from someone who knows. And even if you did get all those things you wanted then you'd spend your time worrying about losing them because you think they somehow sum up who you are.


From what I've seen in this forum, most people are in here because they lack something, that would otherwise make them happy. Many people in here are emotionally crushed because of external factors that make them insecure and not happy; if all of these external factors were to be taken care of I'm pretty sure there would be a much smaller number of SA and depression sufferers.



> But they don't and they cannot. The have no the power to do such things.
> 
> It comes from you. Who you are now and who you naturally become as time goes on.


I have never seen a guy here say "I have a hot girlfriend, I'm good looking, I have lots of supportive friends, I'm very social, I have a lot of money, etc. but I'm still depressed and insecure." It is very evident for me that external factors shape who we are and how we feel.



> Focusing on the external things is focusing on an insecurity and focusing on an insecurity is focusing on neediness and neediness possesses the power to mess with attraction.
> 
> A "good looking" guy who hates who is is a "good looking guy" hiding in his room.


A lot of people focus on improving external factors. Are they needy then? Tell all the girls that put time into their make-up and looking good that they are all needy and insecure. I also have friends that work out and try to dress well, and look good so that women like them more. Are they needy and insecure then? Are all successful guys that get laid because of their status (something which has been worked hard for) and looks needy and insecure too? SA sufferers are actually more needy and insecure than most other type of people.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

bwidger85 said:


> ^ Wow, great video. So true.
> 
> But if this is the case, then what is the point if your physically ugly?


There is no point no matter how much you look your best if you're not a gman forget it unless you have millions of dollars than you can forget everything else


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## Dan iel (Feb 13, 2011)

ChubbyFish said:


> I think if anything this thread really shows just how misunderstood each sex is while both sides think they're getting it.
> 
> Women think men have complete freedom and just get to pick and choose as they wish and are completely blind to any of the pressures that do face them (come one girls can you really tell me you dont see any pressure in having to be the "dominant sex", to risk rejection multiple times, to be expected to make the first move all the time?)
> 
> ...


Good point.

Also you're from California, I wish I lived there


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

joinmartin said:


> Comedian James Cordon is quite a large bloke. Has a girlfriend.


Comparing us to a famous comedian who has thousands and thousands of dollars is entirely irrelevant. I don't care if a famous comedian like that is ugliest guy on the planet and has the worst personality in the world, he's still going to be able to have women banging down his door wanting to sleep with him.

Money and fame guarantees a man to get laid on a regular basis. Most of us aren't rich, and none of us are famous.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

IcemanKilmer said:


> Comparing us to a famous comedian who has thousands and thousands of dollars is entirely irrelevant. I don't care if a famous comedian like that is ugliest guy on the planet and has the worst personality in the world, he's still going to be able to have women banging down his door wanting to sleep with him.
> 
> Money and fame guarantees a man to get laid on a regular basis. Most of us aren't rich, and none of us are famous.


You have a point.

But an average looking guy will be able to get an average looking girl, if he lowers his standards.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

WintersTale said:


> You have a point.
> 
> But an average looking guy will be able to get an average looking girl, if he lowers his standards.


Why would that be lowering his standards? Might it be looked on as being more realistic?


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> You have a point.
> 
> But an average looking guy will be able to get an average looking girl, if he lowers his standards.


I'm not sure what you mean? Wouldn't that be equaling (average=average) someone's standards?


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Atticus said:


> Why would that be lowering his standards? Might it be looked on as being more realistic?


Some average looking guys have high standards to the point were they don't even like average looking girls; they want good looking girls who may be out of their league. Some below average looking guys don't like below average looking girls either. This goes for girls too.

Whatever makes people happy I guess.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

shynesshellasucks said:


> Some average looking guys have high standards to the point were they don't even like average looking girls; they want good looking girls who may be out of their league. Some below average looking guys don't like below average looking girls either. This goes for girls too.


I think I may be one of those people. But really, it is so damn hard to gauge how physically appealing you are. I mean, the best way I know how is have a random group of people online who have never met you to give you blatant reviews. Hardly anyone wants to straight up tell someone else they are ugly to their face or that they aren't that attractive. Sometimes I think I may be living my own delusion of what I look like. Being an honest and upfront guy myself, I STILL find it difficult to say they are "ugly" or not attractive. That is one thing I couldn't bring myself to do unless they had an ugly personality.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

shynesshellasucks said:


> Some average looking guys have high standards to the point were they don't even like average looking girls; they want good looking girls who may be out of their league. Some below average looking guys don't like below average looking girls either. This goes for girls too.
> 
> Whatever makes people happy I guess.


Oh, I understand. It was a rhetorical question, which bwidger85 answered below.



bwidger85 said:


> I think I may be one of those people. But really, it is so damn hard to gauge how physically appealing you are. I mean, the best way I know how is have a random group of people online who have never met you to give you blatant reviews. Hardly anyone wants to straight up tell someone else they are ugly to their face or that they aren't that attractive. Sometimes I think I may be living my own delusion of what I look like. Being an honest and upfront guy myself, I STILL find it difficult to say they are "ugly" or not attractive. That is one thing I couldn't bring myself to do unless they had an ugly personality.


It sounds like you see yourself as either attractive or ugly, like there is no middle ground. If that's true, you probably apply a polarized standard to the women you meet.

I think people's looks are distributed pretty evenly. Most people are ordinary looking. A few are exceptionally attractive, and a few are exceptionally unattractive. This is something people seem unable or unwilling to accept. I don't have time to explain that there's a reason Johnny Depp plays romantic leads, and Larry David doesn't. Some people are better looking than others to most of us. The really attractive people, men or women, are rare.

The better looking a person is, the more rare he or she is. So not only are there few rerally exceptional looking people, but they're in demand socially, by definition. There's huge competition for a scarce commodity (I'm being dehumanizing on purpose).

Typically, the people who show an interest in you, or who are receptive to your interest in them, are about as attractive as you are. If you consistently get no interest from the women you're approaching, that's probably telling you something about your general level of attractiveness in relation to these women. If you want to continue to pursue those women, you would be wise to accept that you're playing a longshot.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Atticus said:


> Oh, I understand. It was a rhetorical question, which bwidger85 answered below.
> 
> It sounds like you see yourself as either attractive or ugly, like there is no middle ground. If that's true, you probably apply a polarized standard to the women you meet.
> 
> ...


I've been trying to come up with arguments against this last paragraph and the only stuff I have to go against it is relative to my past, which only seems valid then because I was different looking physically.

So as much as I'd like to argue against it I think your right for the most part. But then it does appear that more and more people play this game of trying out of their leagues, so what happens is even though you may actually be trying to date an "average" woman, her herself only dates out of HER league, so what happens here isn't exactly good evidence for your claim that everyone matches up with their own physical level. I can't call an average woman exceptionally beautiful just because she dates out of her league.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

bwidger85 said:


> I've been trying to come up with arguments against this last paragraph and the only stuff I have to go against it is relative to my past, which only seems valid then because I was different looking physically.
> 
> So as much as I'd like to argue against it I think your right for the most part. But then it does appear that more and more people play this game of trying out of their leagues, *so what happens is even though you may actually be trying to date an "average" woman, her herself only dates out of HER league, so what happens here isn't exactly good evidence for your claim that everyone matches up with their own physical level. *I can't call an average woman exceptionally beautiful just because she dates out of her league.


What you describe certainly happens. When I talk about the way people tend to pair up, I'm talking about the people who are in relationships. Most people in relationships are about as attractive as their partners. There's a common sense test for this, and studies back it up. It doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Atticus said:


> What you describe certainly happens. When I talk about the way people tend to pair up, I'm talking about the people who are in relationships. Most people in relationships are about as attractive as their partners. There's a common sense test for this, and studies back it up. It doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.


OK, this makes sense to me. I'm focused on the dating aspect though.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I'd call SA an equally ugly opportunity.

What I mean by that is that someone who is physically the same looks wise, would reject you based on your anxiety. In that, SA guys are less attractive than outgoing guys, with the same looks average.


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## Elad (Dec 6, 2009)

If you think you'll be alone and stress about it chances are you will be, relax about the things in your life watch things fall into place naturally. Even some of the most hideous, deformed people on the planet can find partners and so can you.

Its the biggest cliche there is but really all you need is time, once you find someone you'll look back and know what I mean.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

Atticus said:


> What you describe certainly happens. When I talk about the way people tend to pair up, I'm talking about the people who are in relationships. Most people in relationships are about as attractive as their partners. There's a common sense test for this, and studies back it up. It doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.


Yes, your paragraph is the best explanation for where this thread has gone. People tend to go after their equality looks-wise, but obviously there are exceptions. I'm sure you've all seen the overweight, unattractive woman with the average-looking, average sized guy. In grocery stores, I've been seeing that a lot.

The weird thing is there are so many other factors that can play a role in why a person is with another person besides looks (their social status, personalities, social confidence levels, how much money they have, etc).

The generalization that a person usually dates their equalness in looks tends to be true a lot of the time, though.


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