# Why antipsychotics are a bad idea if you don't have psychosis



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

First lets make clear that if you do have psychotic symptoms which are interfering with your life and the med helps them, then the benefit-risk ratio is acceptable.

Refuse neuroleptics for off-label disorders for the following reasons.

1) Incosistent evidence based on small pilot study's wich hasnt been replicated in bigger study's AFAIK, as an example:


> J Clin Psychiatry. 2005 Oct;66(10):1289-97.
> Olanzapine/fluoxetine combination for treatment-resistant depression: a controlled study of SSRI and nortriptyline resistance.
> Shelton RC, Williamson DJ, Corya SA, Sanger TM, Van Campen LE, Case M, Briggs SD, Tollefson GD.
> 
> ...


2) Long term risks, wich includes a permanent movement disorder wich is no joke.


> Tardive dyskinesia and new antipsychotics.
> Correll CU, Schenk EM.
> 
> The Zucker Hillside Hospital, North Shore Long Island Jewish Health System, Glen Oaks, NY 11004, USA. [email protected]
> ...


3) Possibility of even higher risk when those drugs are being used offlablel, still need to check the full text of this one:


> Curr Drug Saf. 2010 Jul 2;5(3):263-6.
> Safety considerations of the use of second generation antipsychotics in the treatment of major depression: extrapyramidal and metabolic side effects.
> DeBattista C, DeBattista K.
> 
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Continued


> Eur Psychiatry. 2010 Oct 29. [Epub ahead of print]
> Cardiovascular and metabolic risk in outpatients with schizoaffective disorder treated with antipsychotics: Results from the CLAMORS study.
> Bobes J, Arango C, Aranda P, Carmena R, Garcia-Garcia M, Rejas J; on behalf of the CLAMORS Study Collaborative Group.
> 
> ...





> Side effects of antipsychotic agents--neuroleptic malignant syndrome.
> Cvjetković-Bosnjak M, Soldatović-Stajić B.
> 
> Clinical Centre of Vojvodina, Novi Sad. [email protected]
> ...





> Mov Disord. 2010 Oct 30;25(14):2475-6.
> Neuroleptic malignant syndrome with aripiprazole in Huntington's disease.
> Gahr M, Orth M, Abler B.
> 
> ...





> chiatr Danub. 2011 Mar;23(1):101-4.
> Weight gain induced with olanzapine in adolescent.
> Graovac M, Ružić K, Rebić J, Dadić-Hero E, Kaštelan A, Frančišković T.
> 
> ...





> Antipsychotic treatment - side-effect and/or metabolic syndrome.
> Dadić-Hero E, Ružić K, Grahovac T, Palijan TZ, Petranović D, Sepić-Grahovac D.
> 
> Community Primary Health Centre, Primorsko-goranska county, Rijeka, Croatia, [email protected].
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Continued


> Expert Opin Drug Metab Toxicol. 2011 Mar 15. [Epub ahead of print]
> Antipsychotic drug toxicology in children.
> Caccia S, Clavenna A, Bonati M.
> 
> ...





> Predictive value of early changes in triglycerides and weight for longer-term changes in metabolic measures during olanzapine, ziprasidone or aripiprazole treatment for schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder post hoc analyses of 3 randomized, controlled clinical trials.
> Hoffmann VP, Case M, Stauffer VL, Jacobson JG, Conley RR.
> 
> Eli Lilly and Company, Lilly Corporate Center, Indianapolis, IN 46285, USA. [email protected]
> ...





> Psychiatr Danub. 2010 Jun;22(2):373-6.
> Changes in values of cholesterol and tryglicerides after weight loss during treatment with aripiprazole in a patient with schizophrenia - Case report.
> Uzun S, Kozumplik O, Sedić B.
> 
> ...


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

CrayzyMed - you should have studied to become one of those pharmacological scientist dudes who put together medications :lol.

I was on one for a brief period - mainly as a strong sleep aid. It was another drug that was WAY too strong for me. The lowest dose had me groggy all day. Thank goodness I was only on it for like three months. It was scary. There was some worry that I would have trouble without it, but I had no issues thank God. :afr


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

millenniumman75 said:


> CrayzyMed - you should have studied to become one of those pharmacological scientist dudes who put together medications :lol.


Thx mate maybe i will, right now i'm putting my efford in helping people online.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Antipsychotics are being pushed for everything. You have a headache, acne or a broken heart? Take Seroquel, Zyprexa... and you're fine. :roll


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Medline said:


> Antipsychotics are being pushed for everything. You have a headache, acne or a broken heart? Take Seroquel, Zyprexa... and you're fine. :roll


Yes, sadly...


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## Akane (Jan 2, 2008)

Antipsychotics are the only thing that work for me. Everything else I take is just icing on the cake. If you want zyprexa though you better have darn good insurance. It's an $800 prescription otherwise.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Risperdal helped my hallucinations but i did gain a lot of weight on it though,


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Risperdal helped my hallucinations but i did gain a lot of weight on it though,


You got an antipsychotic for a good reason, but some Pdocs give them away like candies.


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> First lets make clear that if you do have psychotic symptoms which are interfering with your life and the med helps them, then the benefit-risk ratio is acceptable.


The benefit-risk ratio may be acceptable, but the benefit-side effect ratio is not. Especially in combination with the risk.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> First lets make clear that if you do have psychotic symptoms which are interfering with your life and the med helps them, then the benefit-risk ratio is acceptable.





writingupastorm said:


> The benefit-risk ratio may be acceptable, but the benefit-side effect ratio is not. Especially in combination with the risk.


What's your point? Do you think people with schizophrenia shouldn't take antipsychotics because there are (long-term)-risks involved and the drugs have side effects? That makes no sense.


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## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

They really do hand antipsychotics out like candy for all sorts of retarded reasons where they are definitely not suitable. I was offered risperidone once because I had a manic reaction to sertraline. The psychiatrist didn't even offer to take me off of it (even to put me on another SSRI) until I'd argued for half an hour about why I wasn't going to take risperidone. After all that, she offered to give me fluoxetine instead, and at that point I left, quit sertraline cold and swore off SSRIs and incompetent psychiatrists for good.

I know a couple of people on antipsychotics. One of them is on olanzapine (not sure what dose or what exactly it's for but I know it's definitely not for psychosis), and they are basically dead. They look like they're in their own little world, and when they're having a conversation, there's always a huge lag, like they're 10 seconds behind everybody. They also move very slowly and have strange facial movements; not serious ones that affect their speech, but small, strange oscillating vertical jaw/mouth movements, like they're cold and shivering, chattering their teeth.

A bit off topic but SSRIs are another class that are a total joke. I was never depressed, depersonalised, _seriously_ anxious or messed up before I tried them, just a bit avoidant, brainfogged and inattentive, but here I am years later after one short trial of an SSRI still don't feel like myself. They might not be physically dangerous, unlike antipsychotics, but they can have pretty serious mental repercussions and they're almost as ubiquitous as ibuprofen.


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Medline said:


> What's your point? Do you think people with schizophrenia shouldn't take antipsychotics because there are (long-term)-risks involved and the drugs have side effects? That makes no sense.


Why does that not make sense? I said it pretty clearly and you repeated it.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

For those interesting in experimenting:

Antipsychotics are highly problematic meds because of their ability to induce a permanent movement disorder, verapamil could be a alternative without those problematic side effects.
Another alternative is rimonabant, while it can induce depression i beleive comorbid use of a antidepressant could be a safe and effective alternative for antipsychotics.


> Eur J Pharmacol. 2001 Jan 26;412(2):139-44.
> Behavioural and anti-psychotic effects of Ca2+ channel blockers in rhesus monkey.
> Palit G, Kalsotra A, Kumar R, Nath C, Dubey MP.
> 
> ...





> World J Biol Psychiatry. 2010 Mar;11(2 Pt 2):208-19.
> Potential antipsychotic properties of central cannabinoid (CB1) receptor antagonists.
> Roser P, Vollenweider FX, Kawohl W.
> 
> ...


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

writingupastorm said:


> Why does that not make sense? I said it pretty clearly and you repeated it.


So people with schizophrenia should have a miserable life or die because of their disorder altough they could be treated with antipsychotics? Do you have any idea how the "treatment" of those people looked like before chlorpromazine was available?


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

I have one close friend who takes anti psychotics and she's damn glad they work and she doesn't have hallucinations anymore. If you don't need them don't take them but some people consider them life savers.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

LALoner said:


> I have one close friend who takes anti psychotics and she's damn glad they work and she doesn't have hallucinations anymore. If you don't need them don't take them but some people consider them life savers.


True


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

After having experienced them first hand I don't believe they have any medical value whatsoever. Those people could learn how to embrace their hallucinations and look at them positively, and so could the people who are pressuring them to take medication. Medication isn't the only option. Life as a depressed zombie isn't real life. People are pressured to take medication for a hallucination or delusion when they are in a vulnerable state, then after they're on the medication they no longer have the wherewithal to even decide what they want out of life. Their view of what's important is now skewed because of a decision they were pressured to make in a vulnerable state. I wish there could be a mass class action lawsuit on all their behalves. It's disgusting.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Yeah, whatever... :roll


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Medline said:


> Yeah, whatever... :roll


Why don't you say that to John Nash. He has the same beliefs.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Medline said:


> You got an antipsychotic for a good reason, but some Pdocs give them away like candies.


Yes :yes
I was told by an old pdoc that olanzapine (risperidol) was great for depression
that was lie :afr
Awful stuff,same with haldol, they all have side effects that are not worth the risk, unless like already mentioned in the thread, u have psychosis or schizophrenia, otherwise i do not think doctors should just go handing them out :no


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Arisa1536 said:


> Yes :yes
> I was told by an old pdoc that olanzapine (risperidol) was great for depression
> that was lie :afr
> Awful stuff,same with haldol, they all have side effects that are not worth the risk, unless like already mentioned in the thread, u have psychosis or schizophrenia, otherwise i do not think doctors should just go handing them out :no


they are _not_ worth the risk even if you have schizophrenia.



> These drugs, in this family, do not calm or sedate the nerves. They attack. They attack from so deep inside you, you cannot locate the source of the pain ... The muscles of your jawbone go berserk, so that you bite the inside of your mouth and your jaw locks and the pain throbs. For _hours_ every day this will occur. Your spinal column stiffens so that you can hardly move your head or your neck and sometimes your back bends like a bow and you cannot stand up. The pain _grinds_ into your _fiber_ ... You ache with restlessness, so you feel you have to walk, to pace. And then as soon as you start pacing, the opposite occurs to you; you must sit and rest. Back and forth, up and down you go in pain you cannot locate, in such wretched anxiety you are overwhelmed, because you cannot get relief even in _breathing_.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akathisia

That is pure hell, a side effect of anti-psychotics. Hallucinations are just a nuisance and are actually kind of exciting. What is with our societies phobia of hallucinations? Other societies embrace them. We demonize them.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

yeah i experienced akathisia on haldol very badly, it was awful :afr


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

My good friend has schizoaffective disorder. When he was a teenager we didnt think he would make it to 20. He was whacked out. Talking about aliens putting chips in is body.Some weird **** about purple people amongst us. He would hear voices. We really thought he was going to kill himself or someone else. He finally got help and was prescribed haldol and clozaril. He's stabilized now and focuses on his art work. He's happy. So yes there is a definite need for antipsychotics in psychiatry but for people strictly with SAD or GAD than I say no.


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Just because you thought he was weird doesn't mean he was going to kill himself.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

writingupastorm said:


> After having experienced them first hand I don't believe they have any medical value whatsoever. Those people could learn how to embrace their hallucinations and look at them positively, and so could the people who are pressuring them to take medication. Medication isn't the only option. Life as a depressed zombie isn't real life. People are pressured to take medication for a hallucination or delusion when they are in a vulnerable state, then after they're on the medication they no longer have the wherewithal to even decide what they want out of life. Their view of what's important is now skewed because of a decision they were pressured to make in a vulnerable state. I wish there could be a mass class action lawsuit on all their behalves. It's disgusting.


lMAO!!!!!


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

If you know how to read books...

Toxic Psychiatry: Why Therapy, Empathy and Love Must Replace the Drugs, Electroshock, and Biochemical Theories of the "New Psychiatry"



> A psychiatric reformer takes aim and blasts away with both barrels. Breggin (author of the novels The Crazy from the Sane, 1971, and After the Good War, 1972) launches a full-scale attack on the popular view that neuroses and psychoses are diseases with biochemical and genetic causes best treated by drugs--even by electroshock and incarceration. He advocates not pills but psychotherapy, which ideally provides a ``caring, understanding relationship--made safe by professional ethics and restraint.'' Treating mental disorders as chemical imbalances to be corrected primarily by chemical intervention is, he claims, an outrageous hazard to health, damaging the brains of a high percentage of those subjected to it. Breggin notes that the medical training of today's biopsychiatrists ill-equips them for any other approach: They are taught to make diagnoses and prescribe medical treatments; their communication skills are undeveloped, and they know little about the art of listening to patients' problems. Their penchant for prescribing drugs, according to Breggin, is encouraged by a too-cozy relationship between the medical profession and the pharmaceutical industry, which generously funds research into the biochemical and genetic basis of mental disorders, and whose claims for its products are insufficiently scrutinized by either the FDA or the medical profession. Breggin also has harsh words for health insurers that reimburse for drugs and psychiatric hospitalization but not for psychotherapy and social rehabilitation; coming under fire as well are schoolteachers who seek chemical solutions to classroom discipline problems, and parents who are unwilling to accept any blame for the psychological problems of their children. Although Breggin's preference for nonmedical intervention is clear, he remains skeptical about much of what's available today, warning that ``the buyer of psychotherapy must be extremely cautious.'' A one-sided but forceful caveat emptor for anyone seeking mental-health services.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Yeah I know how to read. Don't start with these childish attempts at insulting me. And by the way I don't like you commenting on my friend when you have no idea of who he is and what he was suffering through. He would tell you himself he was going through hell before the psychologist and pdocs got him stabilized. Thanks but no thanks for your insight into this!!!


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm just going by what you said. You're the one who said "He was whacked out.". You don't have the right to chemically suck the life out of someone and damage their brain just because they're "whacked out". You'll forgive me if my personal experience doesn't lend me to take your word for it that he's happy.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

writingupastorm said:


> Why don't you say that to John Nash. He has the same beliefs.


If you watched that movie, he almost killed his own kid due to negligence of his own untreated psychosis.


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Dr House said:


> If you watched that movie, he almost killed his own kid due to negligence of his own untreated psychosis.


Then he shouldn't have been watching the kid. That doesn't mean he should have to take anti-psychotics.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Medline said:


> Antipsychotics are being pushed for everything. You have a headache, acne or a broken heart? Take Seroquel, Zyprexa... and you're fine. :roll


^Yeah, and it's all about profit. It's very easy to look up the cash price of antipsychotics (though those with insurance typically have no clue and don't care). In dollar terms they're the largest drug class in America.

It's one thing to make a $20 pill, but you have to get somebody to take it. This presents a problem, as there are relatively few psychotic folks around.

You can imagine how vexing a problem this is for the folks in the marketing departments at big pharma. Such a profitable pill, but so few psychotic patients who actually need them. Now if you could expand your market by getting folks to swallow $10 & $20 pills for exceedingly common problems like insomnia, depression, and anxiety (which is most patients in any pdoc's office), well, then you'd have hit a gold mine. They clearly struck gold with how this crap is being handed out for everything.

Anybody seeing why health care costs so much when exceedingly common ailments are being treated with exceedingly expensive meds that are not needed (nor wanted nor helpful)?


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

writingupastorm said:


> I'm just going by what you said. You're the one who said "He was whacked out.". You don't have the right to chemically suck the life out of someone and damage their brain just because they're "whacked out". You'll forgive me if my personal experience doesn't lend me to take your word for it that he's happy.


I don't have the right to chemically suck the life out of someone and damage their brain just because they're whacked out. Your right, I don't have that power. Thats a brilliant observation!!! You astound me!!!!


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

@writingupastorm:

The primary treatment of schizophrenia is antipsychotic medication. If you want people with this serious disorder suffer immensely and deny them treatment, that's just sadistic or cold and calculating.

What's your standpoint on pschotropic medication for mental disorders in general?


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Medline said:


> @writingupastorm:
> 
> The primary treatment of schizophrenia is antipsychotic medication. If you want people with this serious disorder suffer immensely and deny them treatment, that's just sadistic or cold and calculating.
> 
> What's your standpoint on pschotropic medication for mental disorders in general?


I'm not suggestion they have to suffer. I'm just suggesting that there are better alternatives to drugs that don't have the side effects. You can treat schizophrenia with therapy and healthy living, believe it or not. And you get to still use the gifts that schizophrenia brings. Schizophrenics tend to have very powerful brains. If you can harness that and keep a positive outlook on life you can do impressive things with it. They also tend to be very happy people, until you shut down their brain's reward system with anti-psychotics.

To answer your other question. I am becoming more and more disillusioned with all psychotropic medication for mental disorders. I just don't think they work well enough to be worth the side effects. I think therapy and healthy living are more effective. On top of that, the available medications today tend to dull life rather then make it more brilliant, which is something I despise. One exception I would make would be for hallucinogens/empathogens, but the good ones are largely illegal. And I am having success producing similar effects with meditation anyway.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

writingupastorm said:


> I'm not suggestion they have to suffer. I'm just suggesting that there are better alternatives to drugs that don't have the side effects. You can treat schizophrenia with therapy and healthy living, believe it or not. And you get to still use the gifts that schizophrenia brings. Schizophrenics tend to have very powerful brains. If you can harness that and keep a positive outlook on life you can do impressive things with it. They also tend to be very happy people, until you shut down their brain's reward system with anti-psychotics.
> 
> To answer your other question. I am becoming more and more disillusioned with all psychotropic medication for mental disorders. I just don't think they work well enough to be worth the side effects. I think therapy and healthy living are more effective. On top of that, the available medications today tend to dull life rather then make it more brilliant, which is something I despise. One exception I would make would be for hallucinogens/empathogens, but the good ones are largely illegal. And I am having success producing similar effects with meditation anyway.


In this subforum people help others with their questions about medication for social anxiety, depression... It does NOT exist to publish anti-psychiatry propaganda and make false claims that might scare people with schizophrenia off their prescribed medication. That behavior is irresponsible and could result in severe harm of users following your suggestions.

Mediocre to severe schizophrenia can NOT be treated with just therapy, those poor people need antipsychotics. "Using the gifts of schizophrenia" like extreme paranoia, scary hallucinations, suicidality. Great advice! :roll

Edit: In your opinion the only good psychotropic substances are not the prescribed ones but illegal hallucinogens & empathogens like LSD and Ecstasy.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Medline said:


> In this subforum people help others with their questions about medication for social anxiety, depression... It does NOT exist to publish anti-psychiatry propaganda and make false claims that might scare people with schizophrenia off their prescribed medication. That behavior is irresponsible and could result in severe harm of users following your suggestions.
> 
> Mediocre to severe schizophrenia can NOT be treated with just therapy, those poor people need antipsychotics. "Using the gifts of schizophrenia" like extreme paranoia, scary hallucinations, suicidality. Great advice! :roll


+1


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Say what you will, but I'm the one "suffering" from it. I think I know a little bit more about it then you. Looking at it from the outside gives you a skewed point of view. I understand that you have good intentions though. You just want to help the only way you know how.


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Both times that I tried to kill myself I was _on_ medication.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

writingupastorm said:


> Say what you will, but I'm the one "suffering" from it. I think I know a little bit more about it then you. Looking at it from the outside gives you a skewed point of view. I understand that you have good intentions though. You just want to help the only way you know how.





writingupastorm said:


> Both times that I tried to kill myself I was _on_ medication.


I have friends with sometimes severe schizoaffective disorder, which I met in psychiatry (I was there because of depression & anxiety). Before treatment with antipsychotics they were a complete mess. Now most of them can have a normal life.

It's not unusal by the way that people who just register on boards like this for publishing anti-psychiatry propaganda to tell about who much they suffered with medication and now without they are doing much better. Not seldom they don't even have the disorder they pretend to suffer from.

Just what I've learned over the years, of course you can have schizophrenia and much more.


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Medline said:


> I have friends with sometimes severe schizoaffective disorder, which I met in psychiatry (I was there because of depression & anxiety). Before treatment with antipsychotics they were a complete mess. Now most of them can have a normal life.
> 
> It's not unusal by the way that people who just register on boards like this for publishing anti-psychiatry propaganda to tell about who much they suffered with medication and now without they are doing much better. Not seldom they don't even have the disorder they pretend to suffer from.
> 
> Just what I've learned over the years, of course you can have schizophrenia and much more.


But you're missing the point. I'm not saying what they did was wrong, only that they shouldn't have had to. There should have been other options available to them. Admittedly there probably wasn't. A lot of the problem has to do with the way our society looks down on psychosis, and the sorry state of our healthcare system.

Just because they're new doesn't mean they're lying. Yes, I have schizophrenia, ptsd, ocd, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, panic disorder, migraines, and I'm probably missing something. It shouldn't matter though. If what I'm saying is true, it's true, regardless of your attempts to discredit me.

I've actually been on this forum for years under different user names.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

It makes no sense discussing with you about that, it's just a waste of time.


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## upndownboi (Oct 7, 2010)

I was prescribed seroquel to augment fluoxetine for major depression a few months back - I experienced no efficacy but then again I couldn't tolerate the higher doses as I didn't like how they made me feel. Reading one of crayzyMed's posts about the movement disorder s/e was the final straw to stop taking them.

I can only see them being useful for me if I had very severe anxiety and couldn't access anything else (benzos, even mirtazapine i find preferable).

I'm alarmed how they (APs) seem to be increasingly indicated for depressive disorders, even depressions with absence of anxiety or psychotic symptoms. The evidence for seroquel's fda approval for MDD seems to rest on its feeble NRI action :wtf


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

In general it is a bad idea to prescribe antipsychotics to people with unipolar depression or anxiety. But if severe anxiety is completely refractory to drugs with a better risk-benefit ratio and antipsychotics help then I think it's ok to give them.


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Medline said:


> It makes no sense discussing with you about that, it's just a waste of time.


Having to result to an insult? Does this mean I'm right?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

writingupastorm said:


> Having to result to an insult? Does this mean I'm right?


It means you publish your anti-psychiatry propaganda no matter what I or others say. Your postings are also off-topic. The title of the thread is "Why antipsychotics are a bad idea if you dont have psychosis" and Wesley wrote for a good reason:



> First lets make clear that if you do have psychotic symptoms which are interfering with your life and the med helps them, then the benefit-risk ratio is acceptable.


But in your postings you write that antipsychotics are also very bad medications for people suffering from schizophrenia. The only psychotropic drugs you can recommend are illegal hallucinogens & empathogens like LSD and Ecstasy.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

upndownboi said:


> I'm alarmed how they (APs) seem to be increasingly indicated for depressive disorders, even depressions with absence of anxiety or psychotic symptoms. The evidence for seroquel's fda approval for MDD seems to rest on its feeble NRI action :wtf


I've read that too but I don't really buy it, it seems more likely that seroquel is simply blocking autoreceptors, which may be helping the antidepressants along a bit.


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## writingupastorm (Feb 24, 2011)

Medline said:


> It means you publish your anti-psychiatry propaganda no matter what I or others say. Your postings are also off-topic. The title of the thread is "Why antipsychotics are a bad idea if you dont have psychosis" and Wesley wrote for a good reason:


OMG, I barely said anything about it until you asked my opinion on it. I simply stated my opinion then people started arguing with me so I defended myself. That makes me a propagandist? :um



Medline said:


> But in your postings you write that antipsychotics are also very bad medications for people suffering from schizophrenia. The only psychotropic drugs you can recommend are illegal hallucinogens & empathogens like LSD and Ecstasy.


I didn't say I recommend them. I specifically said "but they're illegal, and I'm getting similar results with meditation.".

Please stop trying to slander me. I am a serious adult who has dedicated a good portion of my life to helping people. I take the repercussions of my actions very seriously. Do you? Weren't you the one on here bragging about how you overdosed on benadryl. Seriously, you gotta be kind of screwed up to do that.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

writingupastorm said:


> OMG, I barely said anything about it until you asked my opinion on it. I simply stated my opinion then people started arguing with me so I defended myself. That makes me a propagandist? :um


You started by quoting Wesley and writing that antipsychotics are bad for everyone, also for people with schizophrenia. Since you newly registered on SAS you mainly wrote in a medication forum that medication is bad and advertised the website Project Meditation which is also listed in your signature.



writingupastorm said:


> I take the repercussions of my actions very seriously.


I doubt that: Postings that could scare people with schizophrenia off their prescribed medication can result in severe harm of those users.



writingupastorm said:


> Do you? Weren't you the one on here bragging about how you overdosed on benadryl. Seriously, you gotta be kind of screwed up to do that.


I see nothing bad about admitting a past mistake and telling that it was a very bad idea. But please stay on-topic.


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## yelda (Jun 12, 2010)

I dont agree with the idea that antipsychotics are only for psychotic people.
schizophrenics need high doses of antipsychotics but low doses of antipsychotics are for everyone.
I am not psychotic but low doses of antipsychoitcs are wonder drugs for me for anger management.
I think crazymed should be banned from the forum.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

yelda said:


> I dont agree with the idea that antipsychotics are only for psychotic people.
> schizophrenics need high doses of antipsychotics but low doses of antipsychotics are for everyone.
> I am not psychotic but low doses of antipsychoitcs are wonder drugs for me for anger management.
> I think crazymed should be banned from the forum.


Low doses can cause tardive dyskinesia too.


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

yelda said:


> I dont agree with the idea that antipsychotics are only for psychotic people.
> schizophrenics need high doses of antipsychotics but low doses of antipsychotics are for everyone.
> I am not psychotic but low doses of antipsychoitcs are wonder drugs for me for anger management.
> I think crazymed should be banned from the forum.


He's doing nothing wrong. If you don't like what he says, you don't have to read it.


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## Rest or Real? (Apr 1, 2011)

I'd just like to state, for the record, that seroquel has aided tremendously in stabilizing me in my bipolar disorder. And, it ultimately comes down to the individual and their doctor in deciding whether or not any medication of any kind is positive, or even necessary.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> He's doing nothing wrong. If you don't like what he says, you don't have to read it.


Come now, ppl warning of dangers of certain meds deserve a ban dont they.


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## newboki (Sep 13, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Come now, ppl warning of dangers of certain meds deserve a ban dont they.


Well if you want for these arguments to stop why don't you write dangers of stimulants because i know there are many.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

newboki said:


> Well if you want for these arguments to stop why don't you write dangers of stimulants because i know there are many.


http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/...ine++neurotoxiticy__fromsearch__1#entry627742
There you go


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

My name there is medievil, and in the thread everyone assumed the ricaurte study was flawed because they tought they only looked at DAT, however i pointed out they looked at other valid measures of neurotoxiticy too, not that i think this occurs significantly in humans, but if you think i try to hide the bad side's of stims your dead wrong dude.

Besides in that thread i also posted another rodent study showing potential negative effects on BDNF.


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## newboki (Sep 13, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/...ine++neurotoxiticy__fromsearch__1#entry627742
> There you go


Ok Lets stop arguing all, and you crazymed please stop opening new threads of dangers of antipsychotics because it will spike a war again and threads like these were posted before. It is very rare with atypicals to cause major tardivia dyskenizia(didn't spell that right). And psychiatrist that i visit, i asked him about that i read antipsychotics like seroquel cause permanent movement he said it is very rare with seroquel and not to believe everything you read on internet it will just increase your anxiety. And he treats hundreds of patients over many years with antipsychotics and said not one developed movement disorders. I just wanted to point that out.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

There will be study's showing the incidine with seroquel i will find them and post them, i know seroqual has a lower incidence then others.

Its not that rare in general atypicals have a incidence of 4%, i just post the science and i wont make any new threads, just tought a general thread was a good idea about the dangers as ppl will need to be aware of them, i dont mind a thread of amp's dangers either.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

crayzyMed said:


> There will be study's showing the incidine with seroquel i will find them and post them, i know seroqual has a lower incidence then others.
> 
> Its not that rare in general atypicals have a incidence of 4%, i just post the science and i wont make any new threads, just tought a general thread was a good idea about the dangers as ppl will need to be aware of them, i dont mind a thread of amp's dangers either.


win win and win again :yes


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## newboki (Sep 13, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> There will be study's showing the incidine with seroquel i will find them and post them, i know seroqual has a lower incidence then others.
> 
> Its not that rare in general atypicals have a incidence of 4%, i just post the science and i wont make any new threads, just tought a general thread was a good idea about the dangers as ppl will need to be aware of them, i dont mind a thread of amp's dangers either.


Well that 4 % is just statistic if we did stats on every single person it would be different so i don't look at statistics as something true. I take seroquel for almost 5 years now and nothing. Those statistic must be studied over two years period i assume not 20 years because seroquel doesn't exist 20 years.

PS Crazymed we are good now no more arguments between us, WE ARE FRIENDS, And if they ban me maybe it is for good, i wouldn't be visiting these forums and wouldn't worry about meds as much.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> WE ARE FRIENDS


Haha sure dude, i never got mad for your post, just posted a funny comment on them.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

yelda said:


> I dont agree with the idea that antipsychotics are only for psychotic people.
> schizophrenics need high doses of antipsychotics but low doses of antipsychotics are for everyone.
> I am not psychotic but low doses of antipsychoitcs are wonder drugs for me for anger management.
> I think crazymed should be banned from the forum.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


>


AWWW
The carebare is WIN :b:b

Seroquel is BAD :/
You must be the size of a house no offense newboki, if u are still on it five years down the track, thats all it is really, weight gain in a pill:no


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## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

Classy...


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> There will be study's showing the incidence with seroquel i will find them and post them, i know seroqual has a lower incidence then others.


Yeah that's possible, according to the prescribing literature;



> In pre-clinical tests predictive of EPS, quetiapine is unlike typical antipsychotics and has an atypical profile. Quetiapine does not produce dopamine D2 receptor supersensitivity after chronic administration. Quetiapine produces only weak catalepsy at effective dopamine D2 receptor blocking doses. Quetiapine demonstrates selectivity for the limbic system by producing depolarisation blockade of the mesolimbic but not the nigrostriatal dopamine-containing neurones following chronic administration. Quetiapine exhibits minimal dystonic liability in haloperidol-sensitised or drug-naive Cebus monkeys after acute and chronic administration.


Serial PET scans evaluating the D2 receptor occupancy of quetiapine have demonstrated that quetiapine very rapidly disassociates from the D2 receptor, so this may be an underlying mechanism as to why the incidence is low for this particular agent.

As with most atypicals, affinity for 5-HT2A > D2 is thought to play a role, however this study suggests that rapid dissociation alone may be a major indicator of atypicality.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/158/3/360



> *RESULTS: *Neuroimaging data show that optimal dopamine D2 occupancy is sufficient to produce the atypical antipsychotic effect. Freedom from motor side effects results from low D2 occupancy, not from high 5-HT2 occupancy. If D2 occupancy is excessive, atypicality is lost even in the presence of high 5-HT2 occupancy. *Animal data show that a rapid dissociation from the D2 receptor at a molecular level produces the atypical antipsychotic effect.* *In vitro data show that the single most powerful predictor of atypicality for the current generation of atypical antipsychotics is fast dissociation from the D2 receptor, not its high affinity at 5-HT2, D4, or another receptor*. *CONCLUSIONS: *The authors propose that fast dissociation from the D2 receptor makes an antipsychotic more accommodating of physiological dopamine transmission, permitting an antipsychotic effect without motor side effects, prolactin elevation, or secondary negative symptoms. In contrast to the multireceptor hypotheses, the authors predict that the atypical antipsychotic effect can be produced by appropriate modulation of the D2 receptor alone; the blockade of other receptors is neither necessary nor sufficient.


*If* lower incidence rates are associated with seroquel then this may be one possible explanation.


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## Escopeta (Oct 20, 2009)

Is the average person supposed to understand all that?


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## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

If somebody is going to take something, they should at least try to understand it.


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## Escopeta (Oct 20, 2009)

Understanding something is one thing, breaking it down on a molecular level, so to speak, is a completely different thing. It isn't realistic to expect the average individual to come in this thread "Oh herp derp, I get it, durr". To me it just seems kind of pompus to spill a bucket load of block quotes of this information in staggering detail without at least breaking it down it layman's terms for stupid old me and the next guy to understand. Whatever, carry on.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I will add a easy to undersand explanation one of the days.


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

I'm on 2mg of Abilify. I haven't noticed anything unusual, yet. I didn't read all of your data, but I will come back to it. Seroquel did not agree with me. I just felt "off" on it.


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## BreakingtheGirl (Nov 14, 2009)

**


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

irishK said:


> My dr tried me on Seroquel for my sleep disorder. It was a nightmare. I felt like I was in a coma but my mind was wide awake and racing. I couldn't move my body at all and I remember trying to will myself to even move my toes and nothing happened, and feeling suffocated under a massive weight. It was horrifying. I was pretty sure I was dying lol.
> 
> I eventually passed out and even the next day I could barely sit up. I had tried the lowest dose possible and had even fractioned it up, just knowing how sensitive I am to some meds. I'm now on Zopiclone which I'm going be tapering off of starting tonight. I still have Seroquel but won't ever use it again. It's been really tempting when I haven't slept for a couple of days, but the fear of going through that again isn't worth it personally. Just my experience.


I feel your pain :hs
Seroquel made me a living zombie and adding it to people withdrawing from SNRI/SSRI antidepressants is NOT a good idea

Its Day four of my effexor withdrawals and the seroquel made me want to throw up uke 
the withdrawals got so bad this morning that i took the seroquel out of the bin and thought "should I?" and i took one :afr Big mistake
i feel even sicker than before, and the appetite has gone completely which is rather strange as the one thing seroquel were notorious for was creating insane hunger but the withdrawals are so bad that seroquel is not able to sedate me enough to eat, and all i did was drift in and out of a nightmare until waking up and coming online just now. Never again


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## SilentWitness (Dec 27, 2009)

This thread is a real eye opener. I've been taking zyprexa and do not suffer from psychosis. I have been using it occasionally (once a week) as a sleep aid and helping ease social anxiety. It seemed like a miracle drug but I don't like the idea of these side effects :um


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

In the psychiatric hospital I worked at we used to call atypicals meds as "diabetes in a bottle". Not far off from being the truth.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

@D11: Once per week for some time won't get you in trouble.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Medline said:


> @D11: Once per week for some time won't get you in trouble.


Thats true.


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## wjc75225 (Jul 24, 2010)

irishK said:


> My dr tried me on Seroquel for my sleep disorder. It was a nightmare. I felt like I was in a coma but my mind was wide awake and racing. I couldn't move my body at all and I remember trying to will myself to even move my toes and nothing happened, and feeling suffocated under a massive weight. It was horrifying. I was pretty sure I was dying lol.


Seroquel was a nightmare for me, too. Abilify (at least at a low dose, which I'm on) seems to be ok, and maybe a little energizing.


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## beaches09 (Feb 1, 2009)

Would you say Lithium fits under some of those long term risks?


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Awesome thread. Keeper.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

I agree that the epidemic of gross over-prescription and over-advertisement of atypical anti psychotics, which is currently occurring within the medical community, is getting out of hand and I feel that people should be aware of the associated risks.


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## rockyraccoon (Dec 13, 2010)

I do not have any type of psychosis nor have I experienced a psychosis, but I do have severe depression and anxiety disorders. Anyway I can speek of my experiences with anti-psychotics. Risperidone was the first one I tried. It actually killed me. I died in the hospital and was revived. I obviously had a severe reaction to it called neuroleptic malignant syndrome. So I was taken off Risperidone. 

I was then put on Olanzapine. I worked my way up to 20 mg and the drug was pretty much neutral: no side effects, nothing positive. 

Then I was put on Seroquel, which I have been on for about 6 years now. I was put on it originally because my doc thought it might help my treatment resistant depression. It hasn't done anything for depression, but it is great for insomnia. In fact I still take it, along with other medication, for insomnia. I don't have to worry about the hunger cravings because I already have an extremely high metabolism. Despite this med making me eat right before I go to bed for the past 6 years, I have not put on any weight. 

But we must remember that everybody reacts differently to meds. For example, despite the fact that nothing has worked for my depression, I would still prefer to be put on an old tri-cyclic drug over an SSRI or SNRI any day of the week.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Personally i would rather be on an SNRI than tricyclic purely for the fact they stop weight gain and decrease appetite whereas tricyclics and antipsychotics increase weight and hunger. Its not just the eating though, you feel really spaced out and incoherent on AP's plus the dry mouth and throat is horrible and seroquel gave me shocking headaches and stomach pain because your system is dehydrated, its awful!!!!
Add to the ever growing list of potentially dangerous side effects the Akathisia and TD and you have a lot of valid reasons to turn down prescriptions for Antipsychotic medication


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

I have a love/hate relatilonship with antipsychotics. They are very helpful for paranoia and psychosis, but the side effects are awful. 

I have taken them a few times, and I feel like they helped bring me back to reality, and I do not regret taking them.

As for off-label use, I just don't think antipsychotics are usually the right choice - but maybe for certain people they are.


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## lionheart (Jun 16, 2010)

medline what do you suggest for negative symptoms of schitzofrenia? (apathy, energy-loss) abilify raises some dop. receptors and reduces others, would like to try that


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## Bacon (Jul 4, 2010)

I had really wierd startling Brain zaps on Seroquel XR. they have gotten less and less now. I got em when i was fall asleep and id startle awake >< And they gave me auditory hallucinations and some wierd visual hallucinations.......funny how its an antipychotic and it gave me some pychotic symptoms at 1st :doh:wtf

I Took some Abilify and Seroquel XR today. I have Depersonlization/Derealization and they help I Guess but im against antipychotics......weight gain and other issues, No thanks But heh ill stay on em for a bit i guess. But they really get rid of my paranoia and derealization. I Do like em. I Smoked weed for a year and then i got perma derealization/depersonlization and anxiety and paranoia.......weed ruined me


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## Devil (Apr 25, 2011)

They made me tired, have weird dreams and brain zaps.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Well do not lose hope that all docs are Seroquel and Haldol lovers, i finally have a pdoc who dislikes Antipsychotic medication as a 'cure' for anything other than schizophrenia or psychosis even then he told me it has to be severe. I also heard from him and this is a first, that Weight gain from Seroquel is NOT a side effect but a serious issue which should be considered before prescribing as he says the repercussions of weight gain and the diseases obesity lead to are far more harmful than what most doctors make out they are
interesting ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/38509-schizophrenia-its-novel-treatment
Novel treatments for psychosis, **** the damn antipsychotics


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

crayzyMed said:


> http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/38509-schizophrenia-its-novel-treatment
> Novel treatments for psychosis, **** the damn antipsychotics


Sorry but the site seems pretty biased to me. After all they are selling a crazy amount of supplements.

A lot of the things on that list very obviousy do not treat psychosis (caffeine, nicotine, exercise, benzos) - their only possible use is to counter the negative effects of antipsychotics.

And I think all the multi-vitamin "cures" for schizophrenia are just scams - usually used by those who sell vitamins and supplements, taking advantage of those suffering who will try anything.

Antipsychotics suck but I'm not sure we have a replacement for them yet.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

LOL I disagree with fish oil being that helpful sorry :lol
i know omega three has some positive effects but supplements alone do not do much for severe mood altering depression and they certainly did nothing for manic behaviour
Weed made me feel very ill and dizzy, kava kava gave me a headache and i was really jittery on it and ritalin was a mix of high/low/hot/cold mania

Sorry but I have to agree with kev about multi vitamins being "cures" as well
"Take some vitamin C and cow urine and you will be fine" lol) 
Exercise helps release endorphins and for a few minutes helps motivate me but if i am trying to work out at the gym during a bad depressive episode i cannot focus and have to go home so exercise is not always the best thing especially if you are too low to even get out of bed.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

kev said:


> Sorry but the site seems pretty biased to me. After all they are selling a crazy amount of supplements.
> 
> A lot of the things on that list very obviousy do not treat psychosis (caffeine, nicotine, exercise, benzos) - their only possible use is to counter the negative effects of antipsychotics.
> 
> ...


Dude, that site isnt selling any of those supplements, biased? nope the most unbiased forum on the net buddy, if you think anything is biased, go ahead and post your references



> A lot of the things on that list very obviousy do not treat psychosis


Negative symptons buddy



> And I think all the multi-vitamin "cures" for schizophrenia are just scams - usually used by those who sell vitamins and supplements, taking advantage of those suffering who will try anything.


Word


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

Yeah, I suppose. I know all about negative symptoms and I know they can be much more disabling than the positive symptoms. I looked again at the site, and you are right. They sell some supplements but not those mentioned on the lists. My mistake. 

I still get the impression that these people are a little "supplement/med happy" I mean I've tried the magnesium and fish oil and alpha lipoic acid, and mirtrazapine, and they all did nothing for me or made things worse. I guess I shouldn't be too judgmental though, I haven't tried everything on the list. It just seems a little biased to me, but so is every other website.

Also, I hate to be judgemental, but I just get the impression that a lot of the people that claim to have schizophrenia or anhedonia are self-diagnosing themselves improperly. I know that's terrible to judge like that, but I have jumped to conclusions myself by reading too much into symptoms and trying to diagnose myself, so I'm sure it goes on all the time on the web.


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## CD700 (Apr 22, 2010)

Is the writer one of those people against all drugs ??

Strange to be so particular in a fear campaign against just Anti-phycotics


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

kev said:


> Yeah, I suppose. I know all about negative symptoms and I know they can be much more disabling than the positive symptoms. I looked again at the site, and you are right. They sell some supplements but not those mentioned on the lists. My mistake.
> 
> I still get the impression that these people are a little "supplement/med happy" I mean I've tried the magnesium and fish oil and alpha lipoic acid, and mirtrazapine, and they all did nothing for me or made things worse. I guess I shouldn't be too judgmental though, I haven't tried everything on the list. It just seems a little biased to me, but so is every other website.
> 
> Also, I hate to be judgemental, but I just get the impression that a lot of the people that claim to have schizophrenia or anhedonia are self-diagnosing themselves improperly. I know that's terrible to judge like that, but I have jumped to conclusions myself by reading too much into symptoms and trying to diagnose myself, so I'm sure it goes on all the time on the web.


Well if the people who are allegedly self diagnosing and they might be, finding therapeutic benefit from supplements such as fish oil and magnesium were probably not medically diagnosed with such an illness because schizophrenia is more severe than a few supplements to make the voices go away just like a few vitamins will not ease severe depression or mania but then again if you self diagnose maybe you tell yourself these supplements work? I don't know

Also i would hardly think something as severe as schizophrenia is the same as anhedonia which is pretty common to experience at at least some stage in a persons life but i am not a trained professional, my current pdoc is and i can just go by what he says and suggests.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

blakeyz said:


> Is the writer one of those people against all drugs ??
> 
> Strange to be so particular in a fear campaign against just Anti-phycotics


I don't think the aim was for it to be strictly against anti-psychotics, but rather to act as a cautionary warning because these days they seem to be over-prescribed with littler or no mention of the possible ill-effects.

Granted the same could have been said for SSRI's 5-10 years ago, which again isn't to say that they are a bad class of meds either, but more precaution was likely needed at the time, rather than the black box warning about suicidal idealization and bipolar activation which came later likely as a consequential result of their misprescription.


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## rockyraccoon (Dec 13, 2010)

jim_morrison said:


> I don't think the aim was for it to be strictly against anti-psychotics, but rather to act as a cautionary warning because these days they seem to be over-prescribed with littler or no mention of the possible ill-effects.
> 
> Granted the same could have been said for SSRI's 5-10 years ago, which again isn't to say that they are a bad class of meds either, but more precaution was likely needed at the time, rather than the black box warning about suicidal idealization and bipolar activation which came later likely as a consequential result of their misprescription.


 Well said Jim.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

blakeyz said:


> Is the writer one of those people against all drugs ??
> 
> Strange to be so particular in a fear campaign against just Anti-phycotics


I'm the biggest pro medication forum (far beyond that research chemicals including) on the forum buddy, wont find anyone more open minded then me (except a few people hehe)

Its about facts, and if something is bad.. well then it aint that great.

They are worth the risk in shizo tough.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

(IMO) I'm sorry but anyone with any bit of knowledge in pharmacy or pharmacology would just expect its obvious NOT novel that stimulants would be the treatment for the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. If someone is apathetic, depressed, suffering from poor concentration and anhedonia, then obviously give them stimulants. But stimulants aggravate all positive symptoms of schizophrenia, thus they cannot be used without, oh, the most hated medication class on this forum, atypical/typical antipsychotics!

For some actual anedotocal information on schizophrenia treatment, my friend who has schizophrenia(since I dont suffer from it) as well as OCD, is being treated successfully on a combination of 10mg of Desoxyn with 700mg of Seroquel (along with various misc/not worth mentioning medications). The Desoxyn she tells me helps her concentrate in lack of cognition due to/during psychotic episodes.


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## moke64916 (May 31, 2011)

Anti-psychotics have a mood stabilizing effect. There is no need to com pine it with SSRI's though. That's just the drug companies trying to make more money. Anti-psychotics also have an effect to help treat anxiety. But if you don't have anxiety and just depression I wouldn't suggest mixing the two. You jus won't feel in your normal frame of mind. Anti-depressants mixed with other classes of anti-depressants work as a combination. Such as An MAOIST mixed with an SSRI. So you can work on all three of the chemicals that cause depression. Dopamine, norepenephrine, and serotonine.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Holy crap I need to get off Seroquel :afr

I only insisted upon getting medication so I could justify dropping out of school, as my SA was consuming me. I'm on a low dosage though.

But tell this to my mom who is herself paranoid and always assumes the worst. I know she's going to scrutinize my every action for some months to come.

Thing is, last year I did some things...and some things happened that made it seem as if I had an onset of schizophrenia.

But you see it's hard to convince people that the power cut and jeeps driving up to your house with the intention of driving fear into you/ending your life isn't an over-reaction due to paranoia.

Don't dabble in conspiracies guys. You won't like it if things turn out to be true......


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Yeah i too found i heard faint voices on Seroquel, haldol and risperidol which are supposed to stop that right? 
My husband saw a flash image of a person walking down the hall who was not there
So yeah they are very BAD idea if you do not have psychosis unless you would like to end up having the disorder in which case then you would need them


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

*Long-Term Antipsychotic Use May Reduce Brain Volume*

Until recently, doctors and researchers had believed that brain volume loss in schizophrenia was caused primarily by the disease itself. One recent study, however, questions this long-held belief and identifies antipsychotics, the medications most commonly used to treat schizophrenia, as the more likely culprits.

With the increased long-term use of antipsychotics to treat schizophrenia and other forms of mental illness, especially bipolar mania, it's important to determine whether the illness or the medication (or both) contribute to the potential loss of brain volume.

In an article published in the Archives of General Psychiatry (February, 2011) entitled "Long-term Antipsychotic Treatment and Brain Volumes," Beng-Choon Ho, MRCPsych, et al. conclude the following:

"&#8230; antipsychotics have a subtle but measurable influence on brain tissue loss over time, suggesting the importance of careful risk-benefit review of dosage and duration of treatment as well as their off-label use."

The study followed 211 patients with schizophrenia who had repeated neuroimaging soon after the onset of the illness and, on average, 3 to 5 scans over a period of 7.2 to 14 years. The study showed the following:

The greater the intensity of antipsychotic treatment, the greater the brain tissue reduction.
More antipsychotic treatment was associated with smaller gray matter and white matter volumes.
Severity of the illness had relatively modest correlations with brain tissue volume reduction.
Alcohol/illicit drug misuse had no significant associations when effects of the other variables were adjusted.
Note that the researchers do not conclude from this study that patients should avoid taking antipsychotics. They conclude only that doctors and patients need to carefully assess the risk-benefit ratio of dosage, duration of treatment, and off-label use. As we point out in Bipolar Disorder For Dummies and in numerous posts on this blog, all medications have potentially negative side effects. Doctors and patients must work together to discover the most effective treatment regimens with the least undesirable side-effect profile.

If you found this post interesting, you may want to check out another of our posts on brain volume: "Lithium Increased Brain Volume in Patients with Bipolar Disorder."
http://blogs.psychcentral.com/bipolar/2011/03/antipsychotic-reduce-brain-volume/


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## livingthetruth (Dec 13, 2012)

writingupastorm said:


> After having experienced them first hand I don't believe they have any medical value whatsoever. Those people could learn how to embrace their hallucinations and look at them positively, and so could the people who are pressuring them to take medication. Medication isn't the only option. Life as a depressed zombie isn't real life. People are pressured to take medication for a hallucination or delusion when they are in a vulnerable state, then after they're on the medication they no longer have the wherewithal to even decide what they want out of life. Their view of what's important is now skewed because of a decision they were pressured to make in a vulnerable state. I wish there could be a mass class action lawsuit on all their behalves. It's disgusting.


 I think we should take a closer look at what the hallucinations / delusions are thatare being reported - I suffered a severe trauma last year, I was held against my will by a large group of men, thinking the whole time I was going to be gang raped and beaten to death,and was able to get away from them, but nobody, including the police, 911 operator, family, friends, etc. has done anything about it. Now I'm still traumatized and getting no help for it, just anti depressents that make me feel nothing. I'm more depressed now being on the meds (what kind of life is one with no feelings?).


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## thundercats (Mar 12, 2012)

APs are bad. I knew it all the time. Thanks for the confirmation OP.


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## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

thundercats said:


> APs are bad. I knew it all the time. Thanks for the confirmation OP.


Sigh.


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## thundercats (Mar 12, 2012)

You know what next time I see my doc I will ask him if APs are bad and dangerous for depression and I bet he will say yes. Then I will know that I've been right all the time. But I know he'll say yes. If he doesn't say yes then I know I gotta find a new doctor.


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## SomniferumPapi (Nov 29, 2012)

Isn't that a given? Like the title of the thread answers itself. If you took a painkiller and didnt have pain, it would also be bad. If you took an anti anxiety pill without having anxiety, it would also be bad. So unless a doctor prescribed you an antipsychotic, or your using one to sleep, then I think this thread doesnt have much value. Although I might be missing something very obvious haha.


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## thundercats (Mar 12, 2012)

I think a lot of docs also like experimenting. They have no idea what might happen if a person tries out something but they just want to see what will happen. I say if they want others to take their crap they should also take it first.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

thundercats said:


> I think a lot of docs also like experimenting. They have no idea what might happen if a person tries out something but they just want to see what will happen. I say if they want others to take their crap they should also take it first.


Your logic is so utterly and undeniably flawed.

Last thread you opened you were flaunting the idea of snortable antidepressants.

Ill dismiss anything you say from now on as complete idiocy or hardcore trolling.


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## thundercats (Mar 12, 2012)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Your logic is so utterly and undeniably flawed.
> 
> Last thread you opened you were flaunting the idea of snortable antidepressants.
> 
> Ill dismiss anything you say from now on as complete idiocy or hardcore trolling.


That's called out of the box thinking. Maybe the ability gets lost once on ADs.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

thundercats said:


> That's called out of the box thinking. Maybe the ability gets lost once on ADs.


Ever heard of a deviated septum?

Out of the box thinking looks at a new concept with already acquired and informed knowledge on a subject.

That is not what you were doing as you completely neglected basic human physiology 101.


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## bazinga (Jun 9, 2010)

Anti-psychotics help with racing thoughts (mild mania). I wouldn't classify that as psychosis. It's the only thing that helps.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

SomniferumPapi said:


> Isn't that a given? Like the title of the thread answers itself. If you took a painkiller and didnt have pain, it would also be bad. If you took an anti anxiety pill without having anxiety, it would also be bad. So unless a doctor prescribed you an antipsychotic, or your using one to sleep, then I think this thread doesnt have much value. Although I might be missing something very obvious haha.


Your missing the fact that many medications, like lamictal (anticonvulsant), lyrica (anticonvulsant), and depakote (anticonvulsant) are initially used off label to successfully treat different psychiatric disorders. There is a history of medications initially used in treating one illness or disorder to be found effective for treating other illnesses, quite by accident.


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## SomniferumPapi (Nov 29, 2012)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Your logic is so utterly and undeniably flawed.
> 
> Last thread you opened you were flaunting the idea of snortable antidepressants.
> 
> Ill dismiss anything you say from now on as complete idiocy or hardcore trolling.


How is it flawed? Psychs prescribe sh*t and say "come back in a week to see if it works for you, and let me know if you get any side effects" if it doesn't work, they prescribe something else. Sounds like human experimentation with consent by the patient, doesn't it?



thundercats said:


> I think a lot of docs also like experimenting. They have no idea what might happen if a person tries out something but they just want to see what will happen. I say if they want others to take their crap they should also take it first.


You are an intelligent person that makes your own conclusion,RESPECT. The other guy in not sure about :lol



metamorphosis said:


> Your missing the fact that many medications, like lamictal (anticonvulsant), lyrica (anticonvulsant), and depakote (anticonvulsant) are initially used off label to successfully treat different psychiatric disorders. There is a history of medications initially used in treating one illness or disorder to be found effective for treating other illnesses, quite by accident.


I think i get you...you mean like on my last post where i said seroquil is prescribed off label as a sleep aid?


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

SomniferumPapi said:


> How is it flawed?


Clearly you haven't been reading his posts. The suggestion made above re docs taking what they prescribe is complete lunacy, snorting meds.... really? I dont feel i even need to explain why.

The process of med selection should be done on the basis of symptoms and targeting these with meds that are known to be effective against combating them.

If your psychiatrist isn't doing this then *YOU* are the fool for letting it happen. Im sure that there is more than 1 psychiatrist in the world...


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## SomniferumPapi (Nov 29, 2012)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Clearly you haven't been reading his posts. The suggestion made above re docs taking what they prescribe is complete lunacy, snorting meds.... really? I dont feel i even need to explain why.
> 
> The process of med selection should be done on the basis of symptoms and targeting these with meds that are known to be effective against combating them.
> 
> If your psychiatrist isn't doing this then *YOU* are the fool for letting it happen. Im sure that there is more than 1 psychiatrist in the world...


I havent been reading all his posts. you are correct. Depends what meds are being snorted. Obviously
snorting antidepressants is an idiotic idea but other than that, intranasal is just another route of administration. Im not saying its "okay" because there is so many variables to consider, but it doesnt automatically mean you should look at it in a negative view.

I dont have a psychiatrist, If I did, I'd work the system, because honestly, Im confident I can self-medicate and have better results.


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## Lacking Serotonin (Nov 18, 2012)

I get paranoid is that even a case for antipsychotics? I was on 4 mg. of risperidone and I did like the zombie/numbness feeling.


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