# For all those whiny guys



## pacoismybear (Dec 8, 2010)

Okay, so I have seemed to notice that there are a lot of guys on here that are whining about girls expecting too much. How we want a smart, outgoing, adonnis looking rich guy with a fast car and nice clothes. You are all so wrong. All a girl wants is someone to want her back. We don't need fortune or looks. We just want a polite guy who asks how our day was and tells us we're pretty. So the next time you want to whine and cry about how girls expect too much of you, how SA is crippling your relationships because you have no confidence, remember this and be ashamed. Because shame on you for lumping all women into the same group as those selfish, egotistic stereotype women you see in the media.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I recognize that not all women are the same. But put an average looking guy next to an attractive guy, and a girl will react differently to each guy.

It's verified fact, it's not something that's made up.


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## Rasputin_1 (Oct 27, 2008)

Both of you are right...... Girls generally are attracted to confident good looking guys, but of course this does not apply to everyone.


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## Insanityonthego (Jul 5, 2010)

WintersTale said:


> I recognize that not all women are the same. But put an average looking guy next to an attractive guy, and a girl will react differently to each guy.
> 
> It's verified fact, it's not something that's made up.


Deal with it, that's life. You can't beat yourself up for it and take your frustration on all the women in the world, because we're not all the same.


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## Rasputin_1 (Oct 27, 2008)

sophiek said:


> Deal with it, that's life. You can't beat yourself up for it and take your frustration on all the women in the world, because we're not all the same.


Where is he beating himself up or taking his frusteration out on all the women of the world?


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

Maybe at a boxing gym?


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## pacoismybear (Dec 8, 2010)

WintersTale said:


> I recognize that not all women are the same. But put an average looking guy next to an attractive guy, and a girl will react differently to each guy.
> 
> It's verified fact, it's not something that's made up.


Ummm... It kind of is made up. Put a butt ugly guy whos polite and friendly, who has a personality that is more fun than a paper bag next to a great looking guy with a nice car and designer clothes who talks about himself all day, who doesn't open doors or say godblessyou when I sneeze...yeah, I'll choose the good looking guy. Not.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

Maybe the moral of this story is keep your negative opinions to yourself?


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## Rasputin_1 (Oct 27, 2008)

pacoismybear said:


> Ummm... It kind of is made up. Put a butt ugly guy whos polite and friendly, who has a personality that is more fun than a paper bag next to a great looking guy with a nice car and designer clothes who talks about himself all day, who doesn't open doors or say godblessyou when I sneeze...yeah, I'll choose the good looking guy. Not.


Im going to reply to this even though it was WT's quote because I think we are on the same page (stop me if were not).

If a hansome man and ugly man introduce themselves in the same manner to a woman; shes usually going to respond more positively to the better looking guy.

Now of course other things matter as well, but physical attraction matters. There have been numerous studies that support this, I dont think its a subject thats really even debated in the scientific community.


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## Attica! Attica! (Oct 8, 2008)

Rasputin_1 said:


> If a hansome man and ugly man introduce themselves in the same manner to a woman; shes usually going to respond more positively to the better looking guy.
> 
> Now of course other things matter as well, but physical attraction matters. There have been numerous studies that support this, I dont think its a subject thats really even debated in the scientific community.


Erm, lets not attribute this quality to women only people.. If a beautiful and ugly woman were to introduce themselves to a guy, the same automatic preference toward the pretty girl would happen, without a doubt. Yes attractiveness is always a big factor in the dating world, to both genders, but it isn't always a determining factor.


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## Rasputin_1 (Oct 27, 2008)

Attica! Attica! said:


> Erm, lets not attribute this quality to women only people.. If a beautiful and ugly woman were to introduce themselves to a guy, the same automatic preference toward the pretty girl would happen, without a doubt. Yes attractiveness is always a big factor in the dating world, to both genders, but it isn't always a determining factor.


I agree 100%.... the only reason I said women was because of the nature of this conversation. I think it probably matters more to men to be honest.


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## so_so_shy (Sep 5, 2005)

pacoismybear said:


> Okay, so I have seemed to notice that there are a lot of guys on here that are whining about girls expecting too much. How we want a smart, outgoing, adonnis looking rich guy with a fast car and nice clothes. You are all so wrong. All a girl wants is someone to want her back. We don't need fortune or looks. We just want a polite guy who asks how our day was and tells us we're pretty. So the next time you want to whine and cry about how girls expect too much of you,* how SA is crippling your relationships because you have no confidence,* remember this and be ashamed. Because shame on you for lumping all women into the same group as those selfish, egotistic stereotype women you see in the media.


SA does cripple relationships, for both males and females who have it. And yeah we do remember this and we know it is our own fault and we are ashamed. The rest of what you say is your preference in men, and I am sure other woman have many of the same preferences. There is no point for men to complain about it.


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## ozkr (Dec 2, 2005)

pacoismybear said:


> Okay, so I have seemed to notice that there are a lot of guys on here that are whining about girls expecting too much. How we want a smart, outgoing, adonnis looking rich guy with a fast car and nice clothes. You are all so wrong. *All a girl wants* is someone to want her back. *We don't need* fortune or looks. * We just want *a polite guy who asks how our day was and tells us we're pretty. So the next time you want to whine and cry about how girls expect too much of you, how SA is crippling your relationships because you have no confidence, remember this and be ashamed. Because *shame on you for lumping all women into the same group* *as those selfish, egotistic stereotype women *you see in the media.


The men claiming to know what every woman wants are as wrong as the women claiming to know what every woman wants.


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## orchdorch925 (Aug 26, 2010)

Ok, so us girls have different wants in a guy. Yes, initially, we're attracted to looks, but who isn't? What we're saying is that, when push comes to shove, personality is most important (at least to us here). It's hard on all of us who have sa cuz we all lack the confidence to approach someone we are interested in- guys and girls alike. Yes, there are gender differences, but we all have the same worries. So stop worrying about whether or not someone will like you and start worrying about whether or not you can gather up the courage to take a chance and possibly get rejected. Easier said than done, I know, but good advice all the same.


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## orchdorch925 (Aug 26, 2010)

Also, it's a scientific proven fact that women have vastly different tastes in guys whereas guys tend to look for the same basic traits. Not trying to generalize a whole gender, just stating facts.


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

Attica! Attica! said:


> Erm, lets not attribute this quality to women only people.. If a beautiful and ugly woman were to introduce themselves to a guy, the same automatic preference toward the pretty girl would happen, without a doubt.


But _men are visual creatures_, dontcha know? And women are supposedly less so. So if a girl dares to apply the same (ok, comparable) physical attractiveness standards as guys do toward women, it's seen as somehow less acceptable and more shallow as it would be if the genders were reversed.

And if you value confidence and charisma over looks, a contingent of frustrated guys will still be all "she's one of those women who likes jerks! why don't women like nice guys like me, those shallow b* tches." But of course these guys will only care if you're a girl who meets their minimum standards of attractiveness.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

pacoismybear said:


> We just want a polite guy who asks how our day was and tells us we're pretty.


That's too much to want from me. I'm not polite and don't ask about anyone's day. I also don't focus on people's looks or feed their focus on it by calling them words such as pretty.


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## ozkr (Dec 2, 2005)

odd_one_out said:


> That's too much to want from me, not that I'd go out with an adult who called themself a girl anyway. I'm not polite and don't ask about anyone's day. *I also don't focus on people's looks and feed their focus on it by calling them words such as pretty.*


I'm just curious: is that based on principles, an inability, or a desire to avoid giving someone the satisfaction of a compliment?


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## Think_For_Yourself (Dec 7, 2010)

The OP is right. Given the confidence, we can snab almost any girl we want. Whether they stick around during hard times or not is the mystery, and should dictate whether they're worth keeping or not.


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## pacoismybear (Dec 8, 2010)

odd_one_out said:


> That's too much to want from me. I'm not polite and don't ask about anyone's day. I also don't focus on people's looks or feed their focus on it by calling them words such as pretty.


WOW! Just wow. thats rude. Are you trying to be funny? You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. :teeth


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## mbp86 (May 11, 2010)

In b4 lock


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## layitontheline (Aug 19, 2009)

The title of this thread makes me laugh.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

orchdorch925 said:


> Also, it's a scientific proven fact that women have vastly different tastes in guys whereas guys tend to look for the same basic traits. Not trying to generalize a whole gender, just stating facts.


Uh... that's not fact. Can you link us to some of this "scientific evidence" that says that?

However! What is scientific fact is this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/376321.stm


> A controversial implication of the new research is that, in evolutionary terms, *it is natural for a woman to be unfaithful* in order to secure both the best genes and the best carer for her children.  *This is because a less masculine-looking man may be a better long-term partner, but the strongest, healthiest children would be produced by a quick fling with a more masculine-looking man.*


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

pacoismybear said:


> Okay, so I have seemed to notice that there are a lot of guys on here that are whining about girls expecting too much. How we want a smart, outgoing, adonnis looking rich guy with a fast car and nice clothes. You are all so wrong. All a girl wants is someone to want her back. We don't need fortune or looks. We just want a polite guy who asks how our day was and tells us we're pretty. So the next time you want to whine and cry about how girls expect too much of you, how SA is crippling your relationships because you have no confidence, remember this and be ashamed. Because shame on you for lumping all women into the same group as those selfish, egotistic stereotype women you see in the media.


Yeah, I agree. You can't really blame these guys though, but I'd be pissed too if I was a girl hearing the same BS all the time.


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## pacoismybear (Dec 8, 2010)

bwidger85 said:


> Yeah, I agree. You can't really blame these guys though, but I'd be pissed too if I was a girl hearing the same BS all the time.


Thank you. I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings... it was a mere observation (and kind of a rant) lol.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

> WOW! Just wow. thats rude. Are you trying to be funny? You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.


No, not trying. That's just me. I never intend to catch anything anyhow.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

ozkr said:


> I'm just curious: is that based on principles, an inability, or a desire to avoid giving someone the satisfaction of a compliment?


I'd guess mostly inability for the first ones. The last one about complimenting prettiness is based on principles however. I don't like how people, particularly women, are so judged on looks. I know it's part of others' natures but I can still dislike it.


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## ozkr (Dec 2, 2005)

odd_one_out said:


> I'd guess mostly inability for the first ones. The last one about complimenting prettiness is based on principles however. I don't like how people, particularly women, are so judged on looks. I know it's part of others' natures but I can still dislike it.


I see. I was asking because the way you said seemed familiar because it reminded me of the thing I've trying to deal in regards to giving compliments. I would try not to compliment people on what they wanted to be complimented on (or on what everyone else complimented them on) because that would mean that I would be impressed by them, and I would consider being impressed by others to be a sign of weakness, and so on and so forth. It would go like this: "Oh, so you think you're hot, huh? Well, I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of me telling you you're hot... even though you're very, very hot." 
What I wasn't able to see is that the belief in the idea that being impressed by others is a sign of weakness was itself a way of subconsciously masking real weaknesses derived from low self esteem.


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

I kind of got a cool question. Let's say a guy is hitting on you, you think he's charming, you would like to go out with him. Let's say the guy is shy and doesn't ask your number. Is that's chance over?


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## mbp86 (May 11, 2010)

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> I kind of got a cool question. Let's say a guy is hitting on you, you think he's charming, you would like to go out with him. Let's say the guy is shy and doesn't ask your number. Is that's chance over?


Yes


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

Didn't you snitch someone out?


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

oh come on get real!


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## Smallfry (Oct 11, 2004)

Men will go after the 10's regardless of their own level of 'physical attractiveness' which is fair enough as long as they can keep up with them:roll


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## MattFoley (Dec 5, 2009)

This thread is very entertaining.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Lol at the steriotypes and silly generalisations in this thread. The whole what men and woman like debates are silly anyway since everyone is different and everyone looks for different things in partners with an infinite amount of variables.

I know one thing for certain though, *****ing and arguing over this topic is not going to aid your chances lol. 

To me its pretty simple, be yourself, be happy with who you are, show some respect and someone will come along who is a good match for you. This of course does not take into account overcoming social fears first lol, which is why imo people need to work on that aspect of their lives before placing all their effort and heart into finding love.


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## alex999 (Oct 21, 2008)

Ospi said:


> Lol at the steriotypes and silky generalisations in this thread. The whole what men and woman like debates are silly anyway since everyone is different and everyone looks for different things in partners with an infinite amount of variables.


I think that mindset mostly comes from prolonged social isolation. I think when we are alone for so long we start to judge people more and have preconceived notions on what is socially acceptable and what is not. I've been guilty of this before.

The "women want jerks" mindset that most guys here have (and I have been guilty of it too) is so outrageous. There are two different definitions of a "nice guy" - one who is a doormat, and one who has confidence and self assurance. Confidence does not always = jerk. Confidence just sometimes seems to come across as being cocky.

I beat myself up sometimes and complain about how girls never notice me. I'm good looking (no ego), have a great personality deep within, have interesting hobbies. But then again, I never get out and interact with people. I probably look unnaproachable to most people and my quiet nature probably comes across as arrogance. I know this for a fact, I've had more than one person say that when they first started to get to know me they thought I was a total ***hole. I don't really make a conceited effort to talk to people. I have nobody to blame but myself and I'm sure this is the case for a lot of guys on here.


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## mbp86 (May 11, 2010)

I agree with alex. I think if you want to be successful with women, all you need to do is smile, be nice, and ask them questions.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

pacoismybear said:


> Okay, so I have seemed to notice that there are a lot of guys on here that are whining about girls expecting too much. How we want a smart, outgoing, adonnis looking rich guy with a fast car and nice clothes. You are all so wrong. All a girl wants is someone to want her back. We don't need fortune or looks. We just want a polite guy who asks how our day was and tells us we're pretty. So the next time you want to whine and cry about how girls expect too much of you, how SA is crippling your relationships because you have no confidence, remember this and be ashamed. Because shame on you for lumping all women into the same group as those selfish, egotistic stereotype women you see in the media.


Would you date Shrek if he was nice, polite and confident?:b


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

I was reading a book about SA that reminded me of this. 

In the U.S. heterosexual males are expected to be outgoing and confident while women are expected to be quiet and passive, generally speaking.

So a stereotypical quiet guy with SA will be looked down upon by both males and females. Females that are quiet with SA aren't really judged as harshly. There is more of a barrier for straight SA guys face. It explains the difference between the two perspectives.


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## BetaBoy90 (Jan 5, 2010)

Calling out all people I find annoying, you annoy me.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

pacoismybear said:


> We just want a polite guy who asks how our day was and tells us we're pretty. So the next time you want to whine and cry about how girls expect too much of you, how SA is crippling your relationships because you have no confidence, remember this and be ashamed. Because shame on you for lumping all women into the same group as those selfish, egotistic stereotype women you see in the media.


There's some lumping of all women in this post too, as telling me I'm pretty isn't a quality I look for in a guy at all.

Ahhh I'm messing with the stereotypical unstereotypical woman ahhhhhhhh.

I also think this sounded like an attack on the guys on this thread, which I don't think is fair. Many of them struggle with women, just as the women here struggle with men. We all vent and complain about it, but throwing out the shame word ain't gonna do anybody any good. I don't see how it can show them women are actually approachable.

Some women want adonis. Some women don't. We're a complicated bunch.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

orchdorch925 said:


> Also, it's a scientific proven fact that women have vastly different tastes in guys whereas guys tend to look for the same basic traits. Not trying to generalize a whole gender, just stating facts.


I've always felt it was the opposite, on the whole. Maybe WRT appearance alone, I can buy what you're saying. But in terms of personality, status, the oft-touted "confidence," etc., I feel like the variance in women's tastes is a lot smaller.


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## ozkr (Dec 2, 2005)

Perfectionist said:


> Some women want adonis. Some women don't. We're a complicated bunch.


That's what all women say.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

emptybottle2 said:


> And if you value confidence and charisma over looks, a contingent of frustrated guys will still be all "she's one of those women who likes jerks! why don't women like nice guys like me, those shallow b* tches." But of course these guys will only care if you're a girl who meets their minimum standards of attractiveness.


I know this is somewhat tangential to the topic of discussion, but I feel compelled to gripe about it anyway: the frustration stems from the disproportionate valuation of "confidence" as a personality trait, relative to other personality traits.

I mean, aren't there a ton of other desirable personality traits, many of which seem a lot more important than _confidence_? Confidence is incredibly overrated. Why is someone's faith in himself and his own abilities so important, when you (as a third party) can simply evaluate him and his abilities for yourself?

For example, say a guy is "confident" that he's good-looking. Why is this a turn-on for anyone? Shouldn't it matter about 100000x more whether *you* think he's good-looking than whether *he* does? I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I could hardly care less about what a girl thinks of herself, how she "carries herself," etc. -- I either find her physically attractive or I don't, I either find her intelligent and interesting or I don't, etc. If she's modest (or even, god forbid, slightly insecure) about herself, all the better.

So yeah, I think that's a big part of the frustration. Not that we're being judged on our personality, but that the judgment seems ***-backwards in a way.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

ozkr said:


> That's what all women say.


Well, what else can I say? We all want different stuff. It's unforch, but it's true. The silver lining is there will be some girls who appreciate shyness.

I should stop before I start sounding like a fortune cookie. I was trying to stick up for you guys come on :b


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## Wrangler (Oct 3, 2010)

I don't know how women think, so I won't claim, but let me give that a shot.

Confidence doesn't need to mean ego. I think people are attracted to others who have a sense of themselves. Not caring what others think is confidence in yourself. Doing what you like, takes confidence.

It's normal to sometimes be unsure about a situation, however when it is constant, and you need to constantly re-assure someone due to their lack of confidence, it gets old very fast, and is therefore tough to be in a relationship like that.


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## Wrangler (Oct 3, 2010)

ozkr said:


> That's what all women say.


Men say the same thing.

Some men will only go for plastic, barbie types, some men prefer larger women.


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## orchdorch925 (Aug 26, 2010)

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> I kind of got a cool question. Let's say a guy is hitting on you, you think he's charming, you would like to go out with him. Let's say the guy is shy and doesn't ask your number. Is that's chance over?


depends on if he has another way to contact me. I usually don't give out my number, so there ya go.


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## SOME (Jul 13, 2009)

pacoismybear said:


> Okay, so I have seemed to notice that there are a lot of guys on here that are whining about girls expecting too much. How we want a smart, outgoing, adonnis looking rich guy with a fast car and nice clothes. You are all so wrong. All a girl wants is someone to want her back. We don't need fortune or looks. We just want a polite guy who asks how our day was and tells us we're pretty. So the next time you want to whine and cry about how girls expect too much of you, how SA is crippling your relationships because you have no confidence, remember this and be ashamed. Because shame on you for lumping all women into the same group as those selfish, egotistic stereotype women you see in the media.


Finally someone has the balls to say it. :lol


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## ozkr (Dec 2, 2005)

Perfectionist said:


> Well, what else can I say? We all want different stuff. It's unforch, but it's true. The silver lining is there will be some girls who appreciate shyness.
> 
> I should stop before I start sounding like a fortune cookie. I was trying to stick up for you guys come on :b





Wrangler said:


> Men say the same thing.
> 
> Some men will only go for plastic, barbie types, some men prefer larger women.


It's not that I don't agree, it's just that I was just trying to be funny. I'm actually all against gender related generalizations.

It's kind of frustrating to see a discussion like this pop up once in a while with very predictable results. The discussion is often sparked by a hastily developed, frustration fueled rant filled with broad of generalizations. As I pointed out in a previous post, OP doesn't fail to deliver in that regard by trying to dispel the myths associated with one generalization ("you are wrong to think all women are *A*") with another generalization ("In actuality, all women are *B*"). 
I guess "some", "few", or "I personally..." don't carry as much weight as "every" and "all" when one's angry or hasn't spent enough time to figure out that personal and often biased experiences or observations do not reflect the world at large.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

ozkr said:


> I would try not to compliment people on what they wanted to be complimented on (or on what everyone else complimented them on) because that would mean that I would be impressed by them, and I would consider being impressed by others to be a sign of weakness, and so on and so forth. It would go like this: "Oh, so you think you're hot, huh? Well, I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of me telling you you're hot... even though you're very, very hot."


I guess I can understand that if someone seems up themselves. If not then I think it could be as you described about disguising weakness/insecurity.

I can see what's considered good looking but don't feel attraction without knowing someone. It doesn't interest or affect me. It's not psychological but more hardwired. I can look at dozens of photos of such and it doesn't draw or affect me. I might as well be viewing a furniture catalogue because my brain goes meh.


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## pacoismybear (Dec 8, 2010)

shynesshellasucks said:


> Would you date Shrek if he was nice, polite and confident?:b


No, I wouldn't date Shrek, he's an ogre, I'm a human, I only date within my own species. However, if shrek were a human it might be a different story.

Also, just to clarify: I do not solely go after people who are considered unattractive or gross by society just to prove that I'm on a higher plane. I go after those who I am attracted to. This means that yes, I have been attracted to guys solely because of their looks, but I have also been attracted to guys who are not what society calls attractive because of other factors. I believe that there is at least something attractive on everyone though. Personally, I am a hand/forearm girl (also noses and smiles :b). However, I know girls who like eyes and butts and weirdly even elbows. So I'm pretty sure that there is nobody who is completely hideous. Sometimes you just have to find the right person to appreciate your physical attributes.


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## ozkr (Dec 2, 2005)

MichaelWesten said:


> I only date 10s


Well, that's because you're the goddamned Michael Wensten.


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## nemesis1 (Dec 21, 2009)

pacoismybear said:


> Okay, so I have seemed to notice that there are a lot of guys on here that are whining about girls expecting too much. How we want a smart, outgoing, adonnis looking rich guy with a fast car and nice clothes. You are all so wrong. All a girl wants is someone to want her back. We don't need fortune or looks. We just want a polite guy who asks how our day was and tells us we're pretty. So the next time you want to whine and cry about how girls expect too much of you, how SA is crippling your relationships because you have no confidence, remember this and be ashamed. Because shame on you for lumping all women into the same group as those selfish, egotistic stereotype women you see in the media.


I dont remember any guys saying that women only want guys with money, clothes....etc. But i do remember guys saying that women want guys with confidence and good personalities, 2 things that SA cripples.

And you say that women want a guy who will tell them their pretty everyday, so do these women not have to tell the guys that their handsome everyday?

And by the tone of your post, i would guess that your probably in a relationship, and if your not, then you probably find it easy to date, so your post sounds very patronizing.


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

orchdorch925 said:


> depends on if he has another way to contact me. I usually don't give out my number, so there ya go.


lol, ladies keep their secrets close to the chest, don't they? :b


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

VanDamMan said:


> I was reading a book about SA that reminded me of this.
> 
> In the U.S. heterosexual males are expected to be outgoing and confident while women are expected to be quiet and passive, generally speaking.
> 
> So a stereotypical quiet guy with SA will be looked down upon by both males and females. Females that are quiet with SA aren't really judged as harshly. There is more of a barrier for straight SA guys face. It explains the difference between the two perspectives.


This makes a lot of sense, actually. It's okay for a girl to be shy, but it's _not_ okay for a guy to be shy.


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## Cyber Lume (Sep 19, 2010)

> That's too much to want from me. I'm not polite and don't ask about anyone's day. I also don't focus on people's looks or feed their focus on it by calling them words such as pretty.


This is actually not a turn-off for me. It's not a turn-on either, it just is.

I think confidence is an important factor in social relations. The only problem I've had with this is attracting the wrong kinds of people, although that is probably also due to my nature as well. (I don't know, it seems like having confidence and a strong set of morals fetched everyone who wanted a "mommy" in their life...? Does the opposite sex have this problem with "daddy" girls/guys?)


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## coverme (Dec 8, 2010)

Confidence doesn't mean a guy has to be outgoing, talkative or an alpha male type. I think it just means being secure with yourself. If a guy is quiet and shy but ok with himself, then a girl is gonna be ok with that. Nobody wants to be with someone who's negative all the time, just like guys who don't like girls who put themselves down all the time by calling themselves fat and ugly.



nemesis1 said:


> And you say that women want a guy who will tell them their pretty everyday, so do these women not have to tell the guys that their handsome everyday?
> 
> 
> > It may sound shallow to men that women want to be told they're pretty, but unless you're a female you won't understand the deep need and importance of this. Every woman has this deep need to feel pretty, it's why they put themselves through so much pain and go to a ridiculous extent to achieve that. They just want to know the guy they're with finds them attractive enough. Women are generally more insecure about their looks, and are held up to higher standards than men. I know everyone wants to feel attractive including men, but it's just something very deep seated within women particularly. Maybe that's because of society, but I think it also comes naturally with being female.


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## chandavong (Sep 24, 2009)

women are just plain evil =)


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## fingertips (Jan 11, 2009)

WintersTale said:


> This makes a lot of sense, actually. It's okay for a girl to be shy, but it's _not_ okay for a guy to be shy.


yes. anything you can use to quickly validate your preconceived notions will make a lot of sense.


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## Mr. Frostie (Nov 2, 2008)

Attractive females go with attractive males and vice versa, obviously. Just accept it and stay in your league.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

^^ in that case I guess I should be fine with a beautiful wife.


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## Akane (Jan 2, 2008)

> You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.


Actually you catch more flies with vinegar. We use vinegar and wine in fly traps all the time.

On topic I find there is what a person thinks they want and what actually makes them happy and gives a healthy relationship. Whether it's society or genetics we can sit down and give all this criteria and what the perfect partner in our mind will be only to have crappy relationships if we follow that criteria. When we forget about our criteria and go with someone who makes us happy we end up finding the relationship we wanted in the first place. You can say girls go for x type of guy and maybe that is the type of guy majority will tell you they want but it isn't the type of guy they'll end up with when they finally find a good relationship. Some just take longer to learn that lesson than others.


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## JFmtl (Dec 23, 2008)

chandavong said:


> women are just plain evil =)


Yeah, the movie The Room teaches everything about women. Tommy Wiseau's vision of women, with the Lisa character, is the only true one 

As for the lifelong never-ending SAS male vs female debate, all i know from my situation is that when you are an introverted shy and not good looking guy with lack of (or fragile) confidence, there is a great chance you dont even get close to having a relationship, and well, managing attention from the opposite sex, whether the attention is wanted or not, isnt a concern in my life :|


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

MichaelWesten said:


> Honestly, that's the worst outlook you can possibly have regarding the opposite sex.
> 
> "Well, she's attractive, but I'm not, so I guess I won't try and I'll settle for someone who I'm not attracted to."


It's a matter of keeping your standards realistic based on what you bring to the table. If you're an average or unattractive guy with SA, sure, you have every right to only aim for the girls that just about everyone finds hot. But your chances won't be too good.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

MichaelWesten said:


> If you approach it with that attitude, then no, they won't.


1. She's a girl, so she should know.

2. What she's saying is logical.

I think I'll side with her.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

coverme said:


> Confidence doesn't mean a guy has to be outgoing, talkative or an alpha male type. I think it just means being secure with yourself. If a guy is quiet and shy but ok with himself, then a girl is gonna be ok with that. Nobody wants to be with someone who's negative all the time, just like guys who don't like girls who put themselves down all the time by calling themselves fat and ugly.


Yess I agree 100% with the confidence part. I've always thought that it seems people here can misinterpret what it means when someone says they find confidence to be a desirable trait in a partner. I'm sure there are women who do like outgoing "alpha males" but those traits aren't just about confidence, in fact they are more cockiness if anything.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Agreed. Looks are 2nd to an attractive personality.


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## Johnny_Genome (Nov 11, 2003)

emptybottle2 said:


> It's a matter of keeping your standards realistic based on what you bring to the table. If you're an average or unattractive guy with SA, sure, you have every right to only aim for the girls that just about everyone finds hot. But your chances won't be too good.


Yes, I think you're right on with what you bring to the table. I have a friend who doesn't have SAD. His tastes are really attractive actress / model types -- I don't fault him for who he finds attractive. But the way he dresses, his glasses, hair cut, his hobbies, the walls of his apartment, the food he eats, everything is uninteresting and outdated. When the subject is broached with him, he will say, 'I want a girl to like me for me.' That is all well and good, but the type of girls he likes put in a lot of time and thought into themselves. I'm sure they spend a lot of time at the gym, they put a lot of thought into the clothes they buy, their hair etc. So he likes the outcome of all their effort, but he's not willing to put in any into himself. Oh, and he's quickly approaching 40, single, and clinging on to this attitude.


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

MichaelWesten said:


> *"Well, she's attractive, but I'm not, so I guess I won't try and I'll settle for someone who I'm not attracted to."*





MichaelWesten said:


> First of all, she's A girl, not all girls. *What she's saying is basically that you should lower your standards if you aren't attractive.* This is horrible advice, though. For one thing, there is a whole lot more to what makes someone attractive than how they look. I'm not going to say it doesn't matter at all because it does, but you can do just fine without being physically attractive.
> 
> To me, looks are more about how you see yourself than how others see you. If you carry yourself with confidence and have high self-esteem, people are going to naturally be drawn to that. If you're attractive but carry yourself like you're worthless, others are going to see you as such.


Maybe people who automatically assume that they wouldn't be attracted to someone in their level of attractiveness should question why that is. I mean, average doesn't necessarily mean unattractive. My point was simply that it's unfair to apply certain standards you haven't successfully met toward potential partners. I agree that leagues aren't a rigid thing and people can date whomever they want, but there is such a thing as being too picky (see Johnny_Genome's example above, which seems to be pretty common), and the reality is that most people go for partners who are around the level of attractiveness they feel they are (and yeah, attractiveness includes personality traits that people typically find desirable). So if you're having no success with the expectations you have, it's totally reasonable to consider being more flexible.


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## Mr. Frostie (Nov 2, 2008)

I'm just saying people generally choose people who are like them as mates. Ever notice fat people tend to date/marry other fat people? There are exceptions, but its true most of time. If you're a nerd with a bad haircut and work at a grocery store, maybe you should set your sights a notch or two below Anne Hathaway. Its common sense.



emptybottle2 said:


> It's a matter of keeping your standards realistic based on what you bring to the table. If you're an average or unattractive guy with SA, sure, *you have every right to only aim for the girls that just about everyone finds hot. But your chances won't be too good.*


Exactly. I'm not saying don't try for someone who is better than you.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Mr. Frostie said:


> I'm just saying people generally choose people who are like them as mates. Ever notice fat people tend to date/marry other fat people? There are exceptions, but its true most of time. If you're a nerd with a bad haircut and work at a grocery store, maybe you should set your sights a notch or two below Anne Hathaway. Its common sense.
> 
> Exactly. I'm not saying don't try for someone who is better than you.


You're right; it *is* common sense. That so many people have questioned this notion is a testament to how naive and overly-PC this crowd is here.

Let's face it: dating works functionally something like the free market. Supply and demand. Your value is roughly proportional to the percentage of the opposite sex who'd like to bone you if you were dropped in a room with 100 random individuals.

Not true, some will say; there's chemistry, and individual quirks, and diversity of opinion! OK, fine: you see some pretty odd couples hook up every now and again. But I maintain that if you have a relationship where one partner's percentage (from above) is 3%, and the other's is 50%, there's a fundamental imbalance to the relationship. Both partners will be aware of the unspoken truth that one is getting a "better deal," and that fact will likely play out in the relationship's dynamic sooner or later.

Whether a breakup occurs, or the partner receiving more attention and advances simply uses that fact as a manipulative trump card within the relationship, I don't see how the end result is desirable for the person who shot "out of his league." I mean, I know anecdotes don't equate to rules of nature, but this is something I've seen happen several times. When couples like this get together -- the type where all their friends are privately gossiping: "she's dating _him_???" -- it's all too easy to call from months in advance who will be the initiator of the inevitable breakup, and who will get hurt more in the end. And that's a trap I have no interest in walking into, even if it means an exhilarating month or two of banging the kind of chick people always assumed wouldn't spit on you to put out a fire.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

BestLifeEver said:


> Call me crazy, but I usually go for nerdier unattractive types, simply because I make the assumption that their personalities will be more interesting. I've dated several "unattractive" men, and the fact remains that I'll typically respond better to the uglier dude every time.
> 
> This probably isn't the norm, and my friends are usually revolted by my boyfriends (both inside and out) but we're not ALL dropping our jaws over an "Adonis."


Do you yourself find them physically unattractive? If so, do you believe you could ever be happy with them long-term? Would you ever be able to enjoy having sex with them, for example?


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## ozkr (Dec 2, 2005)

BestLifeEver said:


> No, I'm actually attracted to them. I guess I get bored by "perfection" in a face. I find unusual features/imperfections to be much more attractive.


At the end what matters is that the person is attractive to you, isn't it? Instead of seeing a face as a perfect or imperfect face, one could say it's a face one either likes or dislikes. Sure, there can be many standards used to measure attractiveness, but it all comes down to whether one likes the person or not.

(the following is mostly based on personal experiences and is not based on the quoted comment)

For example, there is that thread titled "the most beautiful face" and I see so many pictures there that left me thinking "the most beautiful face? really?". Other times I can see where people are coming from and I can understand why they would find certain people attractive even if I personally don't find anything attractive about them.

I've been trying to come to terms with the idea that everything comes down to taste and although there are many standards of beauty or traits there are also many other factors ranging from personal to cultural that influence said standards. It is pointless to try to be the most attractive to everyone because what is considered attractive in one circle is considered unattractive in another.

I say "trying to come to terms" in part because a while ago I used to feel kind of weird (guilty pleasure? confused? )about being attracted to someone who didn't fit a generally accepted, Hollywood-approved standard of beauty. (It has something to do with criticism from my family too, but that's a story for another post [sneak preview:it involves me being ridiculed by my own family for my tastes]). Instead of using disclaimers or trying to come up with reasons as to why I liked someone who didn't fit my or someone else's standard of beauty I just decided that I was attracted because I was attracted. 
I determined that I am attracted to who I am attracted and I don't need to come up with a rule that says I will like or dislike everyone who has personality trait X or physical attribute Y, and I also don't need to justify the reasons why I am attracted to someone.


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## ozkr (Dec 2, 2005)

BestLifeEver said:


> Right. But I don't make any excuses or feel ashamed about being attracted to uglies. I was speaking more to the generalizations made earlier that women are always going to go for the model-esque men, and that the shy acne-faced guys will forever go unnoticed when positioned next to Brad Pitt.
> 
> That's wonderful that you don't feel the need to justify reasons for being attracted to someone, but I don't see why I was quoted in your need to make that clear. I was merely answering dude's question about my preference.


Sorry about that. I just quoted you for the first part of my post. I didn't intend to use you as an example for the rest. After the first few sentences I was kind of explaining how I got to the conclusion I made regarding taste, but sorry if it sounded like I was accusing you of coming from where I'm coming with that stuff.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

pacoismybear said:


> Okay, so I have seemed to notice that there are a lot of guys on here that are whining about girls expecting too much. How we want a smart, outgoing, adonnis looking rich guy with a fast car and nice clothes. You are all so wrong. how SA is crippling your relationships because you have no confidence, remember this and be ashamed. Because shame on you for lumping all women into the same group as those selfish, egotistic stereotype women you see in the media.


 ooooook.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*hmm*

*You're right; it is common sense. That so many people have questioned this notion is a testament to how naive and overly-PC this crowd is here.*

They don't accept the negative belief system...some of them can counter it and show it to be a nonsense...quick...quick...defend the belief system by making out that anyone who questions the creed is overly pc or naive. Is it not naive to continue to cling to a negative belief system when it can be so easily exposed to be based on very little that's actually real?

I don't mean to sound harsh and I say that with love and respect but your opening gambit was to dismiss anyone who questioned your negative creed as being naive or overly PC so I fired back.

*Let's face it: dating works functionally something like the free market. Supply and demand. Your value is roughly proportional to the percentage of the opposite sex who'd like to bone you if you were dropped in a room with 100 random individuals.*

Yes, because dating and attraction can be explained entirely through the lens of business studies. I really hope dating doesn't work along the lines of the free market because the free market doesn't work too well these days. But what you're doing is interpreting dating through an outlook and through metaphor. Also, what disturbs me is you're assuming that a person's value is somehow defined by other people. Oh, 100 people want to have sex with me so I am somehow better than the guy who 99 people want to have sex with.

*Not true, some will say; there's chemistry, and individual quirks, and diversity of opinion! OK, fine: you see some pretty odd couples hook up every now and again. But I maintain that if you have a relationship where one partner's percentage (from above) is 3%, and the other's is 50%, there's a fundamental imbalance to the relationship. Both partners will be aware of the unspoken truth that one is getting a "better deal," and that fact will likely play out in the relationship's dynamic sooner or later.*

Because if it doesn't play out at all in the relationship, I might be forced to redraw my map of the world and stop thinking that the value of someone is determined by what a bunch of people think about them. You talk of the value as being some sort of static. But it can't be static. If I were dropped into a room full of lesbians, my value would be lower than if I were dropped into a room of straight women. Indeed, you're getting confused between "value" as some sort of abstract construct and "values" and it is the conflict of the values that poses more danger to relationships then daft ideas about percentages based on whether some random people thought you were cute or not.

Values as in wanting different things, thinking different things are important. Not value as in how much you're worth.

*Whether a breakup occurs, or the partner receiving more attention and advances simply uses that fact as a manipulative trump card within the relationship, I don't see how the end result is desirable for the person who shot "out of his league."*

It's not a fact. You're interpreting dating through a lens where it's all about "value" in some sort of bizarre business terms where your value as a person is somehow determined by what some people think of you. That's your interpretation not a fact of reality. The other person did not shoot out of their league. This is not high school. The leagues are made up stuff in people's heads not real.

*I mean, I know anecdotes don't equate to rules of nature, but this is something I've seen happen several times. When couples like this get together -- the type where all their friends are privately gossiping: "she's dating him???" -- it's all too easy to call from months in advance who will be the initiator of the inevitable breakup, and who will get hurt more in the end. And that's a trap I have no interest in walking into, even if it means an exhilarating month or two of banging the kind of chick people always assumed wouldn't spit on you to put out a fire*

Outside of your own rash judgements about someone elses relationship, is it not possible that, if they did break up, they broke up for reasons outside of your own and other people's judgements and belief systems about their relationships? You made a guess that this person had less value (in your terms) then this person. Oh, wait, they broke up. It must have been because of my beliefs about relationships and values.

Just because some people judge one partner in a relationship to be less attractive than the other partner in the relationship does not make it so.

Never mind what people think or judge, what do you want in a woman? Never mind daft nonsense about leagues of attractiveness. What do desire? Your attractiveness is just that: yours. It's not determined by other people or some all seeing eye. That's not reality. Thinking that is paranoia. The greatest thing that can aid you in dating is self belief and a willingness to look outside of the belief systems and judgements about yourself to realise that the girl is not automatically going to make the same judgements and negative assumptions about you that you make about yourself.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

I kind of have this figured out. Not enough women are great looking. That's really it. The supply of great looking women is too small, which means, god forbid, mostly only great looking guys end up with great looking women. Add this to the list of things that make life not worth living.

****ing sniff, you know?


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## holyshilidin (Nov 5, 2010)

Its all depends on the kind of girl to be honest. so far most of the post have been valid. Here in miami girls tend to be more shallow if u dont look like a jersey shore prick your not going to get far.


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## holyshilidin (Nov 5, 2010)

BestLifeEver said:


> Wow, that's terrifying. You really ought to move. I thought it was a myth created by Mtv that women were actually attracted to lip-gloss wearing dudes with spray tan abs.


Nope its true thats what girls are into here. its stupid. i dont get it cause if i was a chick idk how id be into a complected conceited jerk when i dont like girls that way


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## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

So the other night on Conan, I think Ray Romano said it best:

"Women want men to focus on them every waking moment. And then, when they sleep, you should sketch them."


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## Chris2012 (Sep 5, 2010)

Atticus said:


> I kind of have this figured out. Not enough women are great looking. That's really it. The supply of great looking women is too small, which means, god forbid, mostly only great looking guys end up with great looking women. Add this to the list of things that make life not worth living.
> 
> ****ing sniff, you know?


As much as I like the sarcasm, that's simply not true. The girls I generally like end up being perfect in all shapes of life no matter what they look like.

The girl I like now, for example, isn't very attractive according to any of my (two) friends... sigh...

Anyway, she's the most beautiful woman I have ever met. At least right now. And she's out of my league. But to my friends, she's probably not even that attractive...

And that's how it's always been. If you think they're pretty, they're automatically too good for you. At least that's been my problem.


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