# Major League Baseball, 2011



## PaysageDHiver

This thread might be overkill given the fairly active fantasy baseball thread, but baseball discussion must be maximized.

Big Atlanta Braves fan here. Rarely miss a game ever since I broke down and got MLBtv. 

Who's your team? Favorite players?

I currently have a man-crush on Jose Bautista of the Blue Jays. Saw him launch (450 feet) a Roy Halladay cutter today (not an easy thing to do). He generates so much bat-speed, despite a fairly slender (though solid) frame. He's also a solid and versatile defender. A very exciting player.


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## Linny

Funny you should mention Bautista. I'm a Jays fan. Born and raised in toronto. Took a trip down to Boston in April to see the Jays play the Red Sox at Fenway. Bautista is amazing but we also have a few others who can hit the ball. Adam Lind would be in the running for HR king but he had a back injury early on.


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## PaysageDHiver

Linny said:


> Funny you should mention Bautista. I'm a Jays fan. Born and raised in toronto. Took a trip down to Boston in April to see the Jays play the Red Sox at Fenway. Bautista is amazing but we also have a few others who can hit the ball. Adam Lind would be in the running for HR king but he had a back injury early on.


Yes, Lind is having a really nice year. I'm still sulking over the Escobar-Gonzalez trade. I really miss Esco's bat--Gonzalez's lack of patience at the plate is infuriating.


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## pehrj

I'm a Nats fan. Not much to cheer about since Riggleman left. But I am glad to see Clippard get an All-Star nod.


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## shynesshellasucks

Rays fan here, I don't like our chances with the yanks and sox in the same division. The Rays need offense and bullpen help, maybe something will get done before the trade deadline. Maybe we bring in Jose Reyes to help us for the next half of the season (probably not though), but he is too expensive for us to re-sign. We might trade CF BJ Upton too, he has sucked for the most part in the past but he has been doing kinda good lately, and is leading the team in RBI, SB and HR, (his avg sucks) any takers?


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## pehrj

shynesshellasucks said:


> Rays fan here, I don't like our chances with the yanks and sox in the same division. The Rays need offense and bullpen help, maybe something will get done before the trade deadline. Maybe we bring in Jose Reyes to help us for the next half of the season (probably not though), but he is too expensive for us to re-sign. We might trade CF BJ Upton too, he has sucked for the most part in the past but he has been doing kinda good lately, and is leading the team in RBI, SB and HR, (his avg sucks) any takers?


The Nats have been looking at BJ Upton. I've heard they're willing to trade Tyler Clippard or Todd Coffey (there's your bullpen help) and are willing to "overpay" for a CF.


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## PaysageDHiver

shynesshellasucks said:


> We might trade CF BJ Upton too, he has sucked for the most part in the past but he has been doing kinda good lately, and is leading the team in RBI, SB and HR, (his avg sucks) any takers?


The Braves are in the market for a power outfield bat; I bet they've inquired about Upton.


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## PaysageDHiver

pehrj said:


> I'm a Nats fan. Not much to cheer about since Riggleman left. But I am glad to see Clippard get an All-Star nod.


One thing to cheer about: Bryce Harper is tearing it up in A-ball. I predict he'll be with the big club by this time next year.


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## NaturalLogOfZero

I'm a blue jays fan, so I completely agree with the amazingness of Bautista. It's funny, when the jays first got him I wasn't impressed. He was decent in the field but his hitting was awful. Then dwayne murphy joined the staff and started preaching different philosophies and it's been amazing to watch his transformation. I try and catch at least a little bit of every blue jays game and so often I'll turn it on, watch Jose come to plate and belt one. Too bad no one gets on base in front of him... 75% of his homers are solo shots. 

The jays are so frustrating to watch. We have two speedy outfielders who cant hit singles to save their lives. Davis can easily steal 2nd and 3rd but is hitting .240 and cant lay off the hard sliders away (they make him look silly). I'm excited about where the team is heading though. Its fun to see the youth movement.


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## pehrj

PaysageDHiver said:


> One thing to cheer about: Bryce Harper is tearing it up in A-ball. I predict he'll be with the big club by this time next year.


He just got promoted to AA, so it looks like he's on track.


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## PaysageDHiver

NaturalLogOfZero said:


> I'm excited about where the team is heading though. Its fun to see the youth movement.


I'm marveling at Brandon Morrow's stuff as I watch today's Jays-Sox game. It's number-one-starter stuff.


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## NaturalLogOfZero

PaysageDHiver said:


> I'm marveling at Brandon Morrow's stuff as I watch the Jays-Sox game. It's number-one-starter stuff.


I've been watching it via gameday on mlb.com so the results are looking good. Everytime I watch a morrow start he seems flat, and the ones I miss he is lights out. If he can kind the consistency he has the stuff to be an ace.


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## NaturalLogOfZero

Looks like we spoke to soon. 4 spot in the 5th and its a ballgame


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## PaysageDHiver

Pujols to start tonight, after he was expected to be out for at least two more weeks. Nice boost for the Cardinals.


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## RUFB2327

Phillies fan here. Very happy where we are right now (thanks to our pitching) considering how bad our offense has been this year.


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## Hideko

^^ Yeah, when they won the WS a few years ago it was all offense and just fair pitching, now it's the opposite, luckily those top 3 starters don't need many runs to work with.
Red Sox fan here, their record is solid but really haven't played as good as they could except for a few players. Lester went on the DL today, that hurts because Buchholz is already on, why couldn't it have been Lackey who got put on?:um


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## anonymid

^ Yeah, the rotation after Beckett is now Wakefield, Lackey, Aceves, and Andrew Miller. Oof!

Anyway, I'm another Red Sox fan, and Youk is my favorite player.










Went 3/4 with a homer to help the Sox win tonight. :boogie


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## Hideko

^^ I like Youk too, always thought he's the leader of the team even though he's not their best player anymore. He did good tonight but so didn't Ellsbury who's been a nice surprise. Right about the rotation after Beckett, Wakefield is solid enough but the rest of them, jeeeesh, better hope for a lot of rainouts so Beckett can pitch twice every 5 games.:um


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## Ironpain

And I have him on my team lol. Favorite Team. I'm a life long Toronto Blue Jays fan, well I was born here. I also back The Colorado Rockies, My girlfriend is a native of Colorado. Favorite Player Jose Bautista.


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## PaysageDHiver

Braves just completed a 4-game sweep of the Rockies (who were, lucky for us, missing CarGo and Tulo for the whole series). In earning his 27th save, our closer Craig Kimbrel takes over ownership of the record (previously held by Papelbon) for most saves by a rookie before the break. We're 17 games over .500. Oh yeah, baby.


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## shynesshellasucks

pehrj said:


> The Nats have been looking at BJ Upton. I've heard they're willing to trade Tyler Clippard or Todd Coffey (there's your bullpen help) and are willing to "overpay" for a CF.


BJ has been good as of late but we may have to take this deal. His arbitration for next year is going to cost 7 million I think(the Rays are cheap so they might not offer it), and our best pitchers from the bullpen, like Farnsworth, are being overused, we need more reliable arms.


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## Fantas Eyes

I'm a Mariners fan and I think this smiley sums it up: :doh


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## PaysageDHiver

polkadotlaughter said:


> I'm a Mariners fan and I think this smiley sums it up: :doh


And you're only 4.5 games behind the division-leading Rangers. Awesome pitching has kept you from falling off. My Braves recently played a series against you guys, and I came away very impressed with your top three starting pitchers (even though we beat each one ).


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## PaysageDHiver

An extremely interesting piece on how defense is being understood these days: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6746478/undervalued-sluggers


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## Fantas Eyes

PaysageDHiver said:


> And you're only 4.5 games behind the division-leading Rangers. Awesome pitching has kept you from falling off. My Braves recently played a series against you guys, and I came away very impressed with your top three starting pitchers (even though we beat each one ).


We're the worst hitting team and it's not fun watching Ichiro struggle.


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## PaysageDHiver

Bautista hit 30 and 31 last night. Beastin' it.


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## anonymid

^ It's almost the All-Star break and the guy is slugging .700 . . . just amazing. :yes


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## Ironpain

He's such a great batter that people overlook his defense, he's a great in fielder, I really hope this is the year that Toronto gets a break and gets to be in the play offs. For as good as Bautista is he can't carry that team to a playoff spot on his own. What we could have done with the combination hitting and pitching of Roy Halladay and Jose Bautista.


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## NaturalLogOfZero

Ironpain said:


> He's such a great batter that people overlook his defense, he's a great in fielder, I really hope this is the year that Toronto gets a break and gets to be in the play offs. For as good as Bautista is he can't carry that team to a playoff spot on his own. What we could have done with the combination hitting and pitching of Roy Halladay and Jose Bautista.


The jays won't make the playoffs but thats okay. The goal is too make it next year. I don't think it's fair to see what if we still had Halladay. The trade is still looking great for the Jays. D'Arnaud, Gose and Drabek all have skills and don't really have a ceiling for how good they could get. Drabek is only 21!!! He has amazing stuff but is young. He needs to work on his control and he will be a 1-2 starter no problem.

I'm still used to the jays being the "over the hill", full of has beens, over paying for mediocrity, team. They had the thinnest farm system and a GM who believed that buying a team was the only way to go.

Maybe with Thames and Escobar hitting .300, Bautista will be hitting more dingers with men on. 31 hr 63 RBI is almost sad to see. he has driven in himself only once less than all other players combined. Watching Rajai Davis (one of the fastest guys in the league) flop around trying to hit a slider down away is getting to be like a broken record...


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## PaysageDHiver

Braves closer Craig Kimbrel (ML-leading 28 saves) has taken Matt Cain's spot on the NL AS team, since Cain would be unavailable to pitch in the game on account of his having pitched yesterday. Yayyyyy Craig!


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## Ironpain

There in lies the problem with Toronto Sports teams, it's almost will do it next year and the year after that and the year after that (just ask The Leafs) we're constantly hearing about next year, but while were trying to get better those already good teams (heck look at the division we are in, Yankees, RedSox the only team out of that list who won't make it into the playoff's with us are The Orioles and we're also facing some tough NL teams. 

After the All Star break we have 40 more games (which includes Wednesday's series against The Yankees. I really wish they would make it but I understand Bautista's big numbers mean nothing when it comes to making the playoff's. What do you think is the toughest division definitely The NL East that division is just dominating. Great Pitching by the two top teams. 

Why can't Toronto teams be as good as other teams who constantly make the playoff's what are we lacking that's causing us so many problems?


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## Ironpain

PaysageDHiver said:


> Braves closer Craig Kimbrel (ML-leading 28 saves) has taken Matt Cain's spot on the NL AS team, since Cain would be unavailable for the game on account of his having pitched yesterday. Yayyyyy Craig!


 I've been very impressed with the way Kimbrel has been pitching, Atlanta is definitely a cool team to watch play, you guys are doing well and hey you got the W against Philadelphia when it seemed you wouldn't.


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## PaysageDHiver

Ironpain said:


> I've been very impressed with the way Kimbrel has been pitching, Atlanta is definitely a cool team to watch play, you guys are doing well and hey you got the W against Philadelphia when it seemed you wouldn't.


Many pundits are predicting that we'll overtake the Phillies to win the division. Uggla is starting to swing it, Heyward is back and looking poised to heat up, Freeman should have a hot second half (since he did so every year in the minors), and we'll have Prado (a hitting machine) back after the break, all of which will shore up the offense. Hopefully the pitching can keep it up. Our bullpen is the best it's been in decades--our big three (O'Flaherty, Venters and Kimbrel--aka "O'Ventbrel") are by far the best 3-man bullpen team in the majors this year.


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## PaysageDHiver

Although I'm happy that Craig is going, you could say that fellow Brave Tommy Hanson (10-4, 2.44, .190 Opp. BA) is more deserving. An epic snub by Bochy, taking his own guy (Vogelsong) over Hanson.


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## Hideko

Ironpain said:


> There in lies the problem with Toronto Sports teams, it's almost will do it next year and the year after that and the year after that (just ask The Leafs) we're constantly hearing about next year, but while were trying to get better those already good teams (heck look at the division we are in, Yankees, RedSox the only team out of that list who won't make it into the playoff's with us are The Orioles and we're also facing some tough NL teams.
> 
> After the All Star break we have 40 more games (which includes Wednesday's series against The Yankees. I really wish they would make it but I understand Bautista's big numbers mean nothing when it comes to making the playoff's. What do you think is the toughest division definitely The NL East that division is just dominating. Great Pitching by the two top teams.
> 
> Why can't Toronto teams be as good as other teams who constantly make the playoff's what are we lacking that's causing us so many problems?


Revenue they (don't) make is the number one reason, they don't draw nearly as many fans as the Sox or Yanks, don't blame the fans though for not wanting to pay those prices. When the Jays were good they were selling out every game and could afford free agents to fill in the gaps or until the younger players came up. They had their Triple-A team here for a long time, saw all their good players come thru....Halladay, Delgado, Green and many others, but they end up losing them when they can't afford them and really get not much back in return reagardless of what another poster said. To be honest, maybe if they get really, really lucky one year and the Sox, Yanks and Rays all suffer with an over abundance of injuries they might contend but they really have no shot playing in the AL East.


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## anonymid

The Pirates are in first place! That is so unbelievably awesome. McCutchen for MVP!


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## PaysageDHiver

anonymid said:


> The Pirates are in first place! That is so unbelievably awesome. McCutchen for MVP!


And he wasn't even an all-star. Joke.

And yes, it is flipping impressive the kind of turn-around the Pirates are orchestrating. They won't make the playoffs, but it'll be a great year to build on.


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## anonymid

PaysageDHiver said:


> And he wasn't even an all-star. Joke.
> 
> And yes, it is flipping impressive the kind of turn-around the Pirates are orchestrating. They won't make the playoffs, but it'll be a great year to build on.


Yeah, I agree that they won't keep it up (though I'll definitely root for them to). The pitching especially is a smoke-and-mirrors job; Jeff Karstens and Paul Maholm do not have the stuff to maintain sub-3.00 ERAs (just as Charlie Morton eventually showed that he didn't, either), though Hanrahan is a legitimately good closer. And the offense outside of McCutchen is pretty thin too, of course. It'll be fun to watch how long they can keep it going, though.


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## Fantas Eyes

And I thought the Mariners had a chance against the Blue Jays. :doh


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## NaturalLogOfZero

Fantas Eyes said:


> And I thought the Mariners had a chance against the Blue Jays. :doh


I watched most of the series, and believe me the Jays we're trying really hard to lose... 

5-1 lead? no biggie lets just give up a grand slam to make it interesting!

TO has such a strange line up. first 4 batters are hitting .300+ bottom 5 are hitting .230ish collectively.


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## coldsorehighlighter

Hideko said:


> Revenue they (don't) make is the number one reason, they don't draw nearly as many fans as the Sox or Yanks, don't blame the fans though for not wanting to pay those prices. When the Jays were good they were selling out every game and could afford free agents to fill in the gaps or until the younger players came up. They had their Triple-A team here for a long time, saw all their good players come thru....Halladay, Delgado, Green and many others, but they end up losing them when they can't afford them and really get not much back in return reagardless of what another poster said. To be honest, maybe if they get really, really lucky one year and the Sox, Yanks and Rays all suffer with an over abundance of injuries they might contend but they really have no shot playing in the AL East.


When the Jays were good, it was because they were built the right way. Everyone talks about the '92 and '93 Jays teams, but they weren't just suddenly good...the 80's were spent drafting wisely, building up fan interest, slowly peaking as the 90's came around. 
That's what the Jays are trying to do now, cutting MLB-level salaries while putting much more money into drafting and developing.
The (current)Red Sox and (older)Yankee teams didn't just suddenly start spending a ton of money on the best free agents. Go back to the early 90's and follow how the Yankees drafted/developed, and THEN added through free agents/trades to get to the next level. Same with the Red Sox, except for the 2004 title. When Theo Epstein came in, he put the emphasis on drafting/developing and then doing the free agency/trades thing. Look at Boston now...if Lester or Buchholz are starting and if Jed Lowrie was healthy, then 7 of their starting 9 fielders have never worn an MLB uniform of a team other than Boston. They have 1 big free agent signing(Crawford) and Gonzalez was a trade.

I'm Canadian, and I am just really tired of hearing Blue Jays fans(not saying you are one) complain about how things are...the Greater Toronto Area has what, 6 to 8 million people? They are owned by Rogers, a multi-billion dollar/multi-media company. Actually, I'm pretty confident in saying that the Jays 'owners' have more money than the Yankees or the Red Sox. They also have a national TV network and they bought SkyDome for nothing.

The Jays aren't good now, and they have sucked for a while, because they constantly thought they were just one big piece away and they forgot about spending a lot of money on drafting/developing their own players. I like what their new GM is doing. He's following the Tampa blueprint, except when it comes time to keep their star players, they'll open the purse strings again.


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## NaturalLogOfZero

Crazy trade for the jays...

Trading 3 relievers and mid tier (close to the bigs) prospect for 24 yr high ceiling CF and a canadian utility guy. 

I like the deals except that it means Frank and Rauch will be pitching more... (shudders)


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## anonymid

Worst. Call. Ever. Just . . . wow.


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## NaturalLogOfZero

anonymid said:


> Worst. Call. Ever. Just . . . wow.


talking about the pirates-braves?


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## PaysageDHiver

Yes, he is. I couldn't believe it. Though I'm happy we won (of course), that's a bad way to win it. Feel bad for the Pirates players.


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## Ironpain

NL MVP. Fielder, Kemp, Braun, Reyes or someone else? Who have you got. Despite the way his team is playing I would say Kemp, Reyes has missed alot of games. Kemp has so far been the most valuable player on his team. The obvious choice would be to say Fielder.


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## anonymid

^ Andrew McCutchen has to be in there as well. Either he, Kemp, or Reyes would probably be my pick, but it's too close to call. Keep an eye on Justin Upton, too; he's surging.

In the AL I still like Bautista, though I don't think he's running away with it as much as he was before. Dustin Pedroia is putting himself in the conversation, at least. Ben Zobrist would be my stealth candidate--he might be the most underrated player in baseball. He had an MVP-caliber season a couple years ago, and he's having another one this year.


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## Ironpain

I have to agree about Bautista he put up some good numbers before but I don't there's something different now. I was thinking you might say Adrian Gonzalez at one time, I myself was thinking AG too. It's going to be a tough one at least the CY Young seems easier, I would go with Jered Weaver though I'll hear the argument that it should be Verlander. I don't know how much the Pirates owe to McCutchen's outstanding season but indeed a 162 Average for a Pirates player, 63 RBI's yeah he's in there for sure.


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## anonymid

For the Cy Young, I think it's a toss-up right now between Weaver, Verlander, and Sabathia; I don't see a lot to distinguish those three right now, though I think Verlander would probably win it just because he's had so many memorable starts--a no-hitter, and a couple near no-hitters.

In the NL, it's Halladay's to lose. Nothing surprising there. Kershaw and Hamels have been fantastic, though.


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## NaturalLogOfZero

^ the only big seperator of the three for me is the teams they play for. CC has good numbers but with the bronx bombers he doesn't need to shut out people to get wins. Weaver does.


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## anonymid

Infield triple. :lol


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## Ironpain

It's so true about that infield triple being like a little league play, It's something you'd see a little kid do, run the base and then keep running haha. I laughed when he slid to second, he's thinking wee.


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## Ironpain

Yadier Molina- Discuss. I'm inclined to believe that Mark Mcquwire stuck a needle up his butt and injected him with Roids because Molina was crazy. I say the guy needs to be suspended a good 4 games and fined, I don't even want to get into LaRussa holy smokes this is not the first time this has happened but they need to make sure these players understand this won't be tolerated.

You also could say that the players have had enough of being screwed over by blind Umps I mean I would have understand had a Pirates player done this to the Ref during the Braves game, they had least had a legit reason to spit all over him.


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## coldsorehighlighter

Jim Thome...Hall of Famer?


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## anonymid

^ Absolutely. He's been a HoFer in my book for a while now. :yes


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## RUFB2327

No doubt Thome is a HOFer. I think a better question is if he is worthy of a first-ballot induction.


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## anonymid

I've never cared about the first-ballot distinction. If you think a guy's a HoFer, there's no reason not to vote for him the first time you get the chance.

The reality is that there are inner-circle greats who haven't made it on the first ballot, and non-inner-circle types who have. I don't see any point in trying to create a distinction that's never really existed in the first place.


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## anonymid

Red Sox just turned a triple play! :yay


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## coldsorehighlighter

Brett Lawrie is a monster.


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## MrQuiet76

I'm a huge Indians fan, and I'm so pumped that Thome is back!! I had a grudge for the longest time, but I'm over it now... I haven't been this happy about an acquisition in quite a while... maybe he can inspire the team and help us overtake the Tigers


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## NaturalLogOfZero

the cheat said:


> Brett Lawrie is a monster.


Watching the Jays, I'm used to high ceiling players coming up to the bigs and flopping (Snider, Drabek, Lind at first). I expected Lawrie to come up and follow the same trend. Maybe make a few plays, get a couple hits but not live up to the hype.

Fortunately, he is crushing my expectations and even those of the people in the industry! The guy can flat out hit. I haven't seen a young kid with that intensity and drive in a long time. He has one of the fastest bats and hits for average. Even his defence, which was expected to be bad, is good. He is a huge upgrade on E5.

Its exciting to be a Blue jay fan for a change 
(for next year)....


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## coldsorehighlighter

NaturalLogOfZero said:


> Watching the Jays, I'm used to high ceiling players coming up to the bigs and flopping (Snider, Drabek, Lind at first). I expected Lawrie to come up and follow the same trend. Maybe make a few plays, get a couple hits but not live up to the hype.
> 
> Fortunately, he is crushing my expectations and even those of the people in the industry! The guy can flat out hit. I haven't seen a young kid with that intensity and drive in a long time. He has one of the fastest bats and hits for average. Even his defence, which was expected to be bad, is good. He is a huge upgrade on E5.
> 
> Its exciting to be a Blue jay fan for a change
> (for next year)....


I was talking to a friend about Lawrie the other night and I suggested that as impressed as I am by his bat, his arm is what is impressing me most. His throws to 1st are frozen ropes...and fast. 
Still, it is dangerous to anoint him too soon. I never expected, say, Evan Longoria to have the season he is having. Baseball is a humbling game. Still, I actually look forward to Blue Jays games now. I used to wish they'd move so I didn't have to deal with them being on TV 162 times a year.


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## anonymid

The Red Sox are ending this season the way they started it. Their Wild Card lead is down to just one game in the loss column after this afternoon's loss to the Orioles, and it'll be even if they drop the second game of the doubleheader tonight. :sigh


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## shynesshellasucks

anonymid said:


> The Red Sox are ending this season the way they started it. Their Wild Card lead is down to just one game in the loss column after this afternoon's loss to the Orioles, and it'll be even if they drop the second game of the doubleheader tonight. :sigh


I hope the Rays catch up to the bosox. But IDK about our chances; we have two series left with the Yanks. And although our starting pitchers and defense are good our offense kinda sucks. I don't trust our bullpen either.


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## anonymid

shynesshellasucks said:


> I hope the Rays catch up to the bosox. But IDK about our chances; we have two series left with the Yanks.


Yeah, it puts me in a weird position where I kinda have to root for the Yankees down the stretch. :lol


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## coldsorehighlighter

Boston is cutting it close, but I still think they make it, provided they can beat the Orioles enough times. They play them 7 times in their last 10 games. Also, the Rays play the Yankees 7 times in their last 10, so even if the Rays win all or most of those 7 games, it means the Yankees will be losing...so if the Red Sox can win their games, they'll either pull away from the Rays or catch up to the Yankees. I think they have the tiebreaker against the Yankees too, so they only have to tie them. 
Either way, the baseball races just got more interesting. There were looking to only been 1 or 2 races but now both wild-card's are pretty close, the AL West...

I still wish they'd expand the playoffs, knock off about 12 regular season games, and make playoff baseball last from early to mid-September until the end of October...but I know they'll never go that far.


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## anonymid

the cheat said:


> Also, the Rays play the Yankees 7 times in their last 10, so even if the Rays win all or most of those 7 games, it means the Yankees will be losing...so if the Red Sox can win their games, they'll either pull away from the Rays or catch up to the Yankees. I think they have the tiebreaker against the Yankees too, so they only have to tie them.


That's a good point . . . and given that I'm relying on several Rays to help me win our fantasy league, maybe I should in fact be rooting for them instead of the Yankees. That's certainly a much more palatable option for me. :yes

In any case, yeah, it's definitely exciting that there's a good race down the stretch. For a while there it didn't look like there were going to be any.


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## Xande

I really wish I could get into baseball. I feel so left out of convos at work, cause I'm like the only guy there who isn't into baseball. I tried watching the game today, then just ended up switching the channel....

Although I'm not super into any sports besides combat sports. Like I'll watch as many football games as I can watch, but I won't know all the rules or players, etc.


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## danberado

The trick to getting into baseball _is_ to get to know some of the players. Then you can root for them when they make hit, or strike someone out. Rooting for a team is bit more abstract, it can come from local pride, familiarity with the team's legacy, or (again) liking the players.

It can become a huge time sink if you're not careful though, as each team plays something like 160 games a year.


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## fonz

Why do they play so many games? It must be really hard for a team to stay motivated if they're like 30-50 half way through the season and they know they're not going to make the playoffs from that position so they have to play 80 meaningless games...


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## danberado

I don't think it's too hard to stay motivated when making million dollar salaries playing a game on a team that happens to be losing. Also, if you play well enough a more successful team might offer you a spot down the road.

Teams that are behind can use the practice and tinker with their line up in preparation for the next season.


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## anonymid

The Red Sox will fall back into a tie with the Rays if they lose the second game of this doubleheader. Oy.


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## pancake111

Idk if the Sox will pull through. If they dont, and even if they do, Epstein could be fired.


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## anonymid

pancake111 said:


> If they dont, and even if they do, Epstein could be fired.


That would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. I'd like to think that it's extremely unlikely to happen, but who knows.


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## danberado

At this point I'm pinning my hope on Kershaw Triple Crown and Kemp MVP, 40-40, and Triple Crown. I can dream can't I?


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## anonymid

Huuuuuuuge homer by Ellsbury in the 14th to help the Sox win and preserve a one-game lead with three to go. Whew!


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## anonymid

danberado said:


> At this point I'm pinning my hope on Kershaw Triple Crown and Kemp MVP, 40-40, and Triple Crown. I can dream can't I?


Those two have been incredible. Taking home the MVP and the Cy Young would be a pretty nice silver lining to an otherwise unfortunate season for the Dodgers, wouldn't it? Something to remember that team's season for other than all the McCourt nonsense . . .


----------



## Zeeshan

anonymid said:


> Huuuuuuuge homer by Ellsbury in the 14th to help the Sox win and preserve a one-game lead with three to go. Whew!


You almost got the feeling Yankees just gave up on that one

It will be interesting now. Rays vs. Yankees, Redsox vs. Orioles

Any time of the season i would rather face the Orioles, but right now the Orioles are more dangerous then the yankees. The Yankees have nothing to play for and will be practically resting everyone and treating it like its preseason, while the Orioles are gonna play like this is their world series

Should be an exciting three days, and i am jacked, Brett Lawrie Jacked :yes


----------



## Zeeshan

danberado said:


> At this point I'm pinning my hope on Kershaw Triple Crown and Kemp MVP, 40-40, and Triple Crown. I can dream can't I?


Sorry MVP should only come from a competing team


----------



## anonymid

Zeeshan said:


> Sorry MVP should only come from a competing team


Totally disagree (and I say this as a Red Sox fan who would vote for Bautista over Ellsbury).


----------



## texaspenguin

Go Rangers! It's been a long time coming, but I'm glad to see them finally making something happen. 

Just to be blunt, but the talk of firing Epstein sounds like something a Yankees fan would say about Cashman. It's not his fault one of the most talented teams he could put together is faltering in September. 

AL MVP: Michael Young (yes, I'm a homer, but where would the Rangers be without him given all their injuries?)
AL CY: Verlander

NL MVP: Matt Kemp
NL CY: Kershaw (with a nod to Ian Kennedy)
It's definitely not these guys' fault the Dodgers suck.


----------



## anonymid

Zeeshan said:


> You almost got the feeling Yankees just gave up on that one
> 
> It will be interesting now. Rays vs. Yankees, Redsox vs. Orioles
> 
> Any time of the season i would rather face the Orioles, but right now the Orioles are more dangerous then the yankees. The Yankees have nothing to play for and will be practically resting everyone and treating it like its preseason, while the Orioles are gonna play like this is their world series
> 
> Should be an exciting three days, and i am jacked, Brett Lawrie Jacked :yes


Yeah, it's going to be an exciting three days, and you're right that the dynamics in that Rays-Yankees series are going to be kind of weird, with the Yankees having nothing much to play for. The Orioles have already given the Red Sox fits this month, so I'm pretty nervous. Very glad to have that one-game cushion, though.

The crazy thing is that the Red Sox are having a great month offensively--I read somewhere today that this is actually the sixth-highest scoring September in team history. Yet overall it's been one of the worst months in team history. The pitching has been that bad.


----------



## coldsorehighlighter

anonymid said:


> Totally disagree (and I say this as a Red Sox fan who would vote for Bautista over Ellsbury).


Can I ask why you'd vote for Bautista over Ellsbury? Because he has more home runs? Ellsbury has more at-bat's, more runs scored, 50+ more hits, 20+ more doubles, more triples, more RBI, 30+ more stolen bases, less strikeouts...and his defense is better, too...on a contending team.

Bautista has him in Home Run's, and in OBP/SLG/OPS...but that's to be expected from a player who swings for the fences every time.

I dunno, any time a player has 30+ Home Run's, 100+ RBI, is hitting .320 and stealing nearly 40 bases on a team that will win 90+ games...that's the MVP to me.


----------



## anonymid

texaspenguin said:


> Go Rangers! It's been a long time coming, but I'm glad to see them finally making something happen.
> 
> Just to be blunt, but the talk of firing Epstein sounds like something a Yankees fan would say about Cashman. It's not his fault one of the most talented teams he could put together is faltering in September.
> 
> AL MVP: Michael Young (yes, I'm a homer, but where would the Rangers be without him given all his injuries?)
> AL CY: Verlander
> 
> NL MVP: Matt Kemp
> NL CY: Kershaw (with a nod to Ian Kennedy)
> It's definitely not these guys' fault the Dodgers suck.


I'm so envious that you guys have Adrian Beltre. He's awesome, isn't he? We had him for just one year, but he instantly became one of my favorite players. And now that Youk is down (possibly for the year), I'm really missing him. He just swallows up everything that's hit in his direction, has such a strong arm, and has that sweet home-run swing where he drops down on one knee. So much fun to watch.


----------



## anonymid

the cheat said:


> Can I ask why you'd vote for Bautista over Ellsbury? Because he has more home runs? Ellsbury has more at-bat's, more runs scored, 50+ more hits, 20+ more doubles, more triples, more RBI, 30+ more stolen bases, less strikeouts...and his defense is better, too...on a contending team.
> 
> Bautista has him in Home Run's, and in OBP/SLG/OPS...but that's to be expected from a player who swings for the fences every time.
> 
> I dunno, any time a player has 30+ Home Run's, 100+ RBI, is hitting .320 and stealing nearly 40 bases on a team that will win 90+ games...that's the MVP to me.


Maybe it's just that I'm going out of my way not to be a homer (no pun intended, haha). Ellsbury certainly would be a deserving choice too, and it wouldn't be a crime if Verlander or Granderson won it, either.

The on-base and slugging have a lot to do with it; Bautista has led the league in both categories by a mile for most of the season (though I think Cabrera has closed in on him for the OBP title). And it's not just that he's swinging for the fences; his plate discipline is fantastic (over a hundred walks even if you don't count all the intentionals, and more walks than strikeouts). He's even sporting a .300 average, way up from last year, so he's been a complete hitter. And, for what it's worth, he's been probably the best clutch/situational hitter in baseball this season (going by some of the more advanced metrics that track that sort of thing, like Win Probability Added).

Also I just don't put any weight on team performance, because I see the MVP as an individual award. I think it should just go to the player who had the best season. Bautista was as valuable as anyone this year; the rest of his team just wasn't good enough to cash in on that value, so to speak.

But again, I think it's pretty much a coin flip at this point, and that Elllsbury is probably every bit as deserving.


----------



## danberado

texaspenguin said:


> NL MVP: Matt Kemp
> NL CY: Kershaw (with a nod to Ian Kennedy)
> It's definitely not these guys' fault the Dodgers suck.


:yes

Except, I'd say sucked, rather than present tense suck. They've done great their last 30 or so games, even with their rookies in the rotation. I have high hopes for next year. At the very least it appears they'll end the season with more wins than losses.

As for MVP, it depends on how you define it. I think carrying a weak team is much more impressive than bolstering a strong one.

Leading the league in RBI's in a team that's barely above .500 for the season? Tied for home runs, high batting average, and a ton of stolen bases? Objectively speaking you don't have to look much further.


----------



## coldsorehighlighter

anonymid said:


> Maybe it's just that I'm going out of my way not to be a homer (no pun intended, haha). Ellsbury certainly would be a deserving choice too, and it wouldn't be a crime if Verlander or Granderson won it, either.
> 
> The on-base and slugging have a lot to do with it; Bautista has led the league in both categories by a mile for most of the season (though I think Cabrera has closed in on him for the OBP title). And it's not just that he's swinging for the fences; his plate discipline is fantastic (over a hundred walks even if you don't count all the intentionals, and more walks than strikeouts). He's even sporting a .300 average, way up from last year, so he's been a complete hitter. And, for what it's worth, he's been probably the best clutch/situational hitter in baseball this season (going by some of the more advanced metrics that track that sort of thing, like Win Probability Added).
> 
> Also I just don't put any weight on team performance, because I see the MVP as an individual award. I think it should just go to the player who had the best season. Bautista was as valuable as anyone this year; the rest of his team just wasn't good enough to cash in on that value, so to speak.
> 
> But again, I think it's pretty much a coin flip at this point, and that Elllsbury is probably every bit as deserving.


Yep, you make fair points. I just feel that what you described is the most outstanding player and not really the most valuable player.
Due to the fact that Bautista plays on a sub-par team, he doesn't get any chances to "deliver in the clutch", so to speak. 
Take the second Boston game tonight, where Ellsbury hits a 3 run home-run in extra innings to lead his team to their biggest win of the season...that's valuable, because it means a lot more to his team than Bautista does to his team, when he hit's a solo home-run in Game 73 against some random team. And, Ellsbury has had a few games like that game earlier against New York, this season.

What puts Ellsbury over the top, in my opinion, is his power, combined with 40 steals(38 with 3 games to go). Also, the RBI's from the lead-off spot is unheard of, when you consider that 1 at-bat every game is guaranteed to have nobody on base.

With salaries, age, and contract length's being equal(they aren't, but assume they were), would you trade Ellsbury straight up for Bautista? (I think Boston would, but only because they have Carl Crawford now, who could play Center field.)

Also, don't get me wrong, I live in Canada and it's been a pleasure to watch Bautista(and Lawrie) all year.


----------



## anonymid

the cheat said:


> I just feel that what you described is the most outstanding player and not really the most valuable player.


The way I see it, "most outstanding" and "most valuable" are more or less the same thing. Here's the analogy I like to make:

Let's say we each have nine bills: I have a $20 bill, and eight 1s. You have a $10 bill, and eight 5s. Your $50 goes further than my $28, but if the question is _which individual bill is the most valuable?_, well, it's of course the 20. Would you trade a 10 for a 20, all things being equal? Of course you would.

So I guess that's how I view the MVP. The question is, _which individual player is the most valuable?_. And I answer the question in the same way. Whichever guy had the best season, that's the guy who was the most valuable, because, everything else being equal, that's the guy I would most want to have on my team.

Of course, I'm not saying that Bautista is a 20 and Ellsbury is a 10. As I've said, I think they've had pretty much equal years; I just give Bautista ever so slight an edge. So, to answer your question, sure, everything else being equal, I would swap Ellsbury's season for Bautista's. In other words, I don't think the Red Sox would be doing any worse this year if they had Bautista instead of Ellsbury, and they just might be doing a smidge better.

Another thing that bugs me about factoring team success into the question of "value": if the Red Sox make the playoffs by the narrowest of margins, it won't just mean that they wouldn't have made it without Jacoby Ellsbury. It would also mean that they wouldn't have made it without _any_ player who provided positive value for them, however slight. So, does that mean that Jed Lowrie and Josh Reddick and Jarrod Saltalamacchia belong ahead of Jose Bautista on an MVP ballot, too?--since, after all, their contributions had more value toward a postseason appearance than Bautista's did?

Anyway, just trying to make my reasoning more clear. Kind of funny how we're each arguing _against_ our team's guy winning the MVP. :lol


----------



## coldsorehighlighter

anonymid said:


> The way I see it, "most outstanding" and "most valuable" are more or less the same thing. Here's the analogy I like to make:
> 
> Let's say we each have nine bills: I have a $20 bill, and eight 1s. You have a $10 bill, and eight 5s. Your $50 goes further than my $28, but if the question is _which individual bill is the most valuable?_, well, it's of course the 20. Would you trade a 10 for a 20, all things being equal? Of course you would.
> 
> So I guess that's how I view the MVP. The question is, _which individual player is the most valuable?_. And I answer the question in the same way. Whichever guy had the best season, that's the guy who was the most valuable, because, everything else being equal, that's the guy I would most want to have on my team.
> 
> Of course, I'm not saying that Bautista is a 20 and Ellsbury is a 10. As I've said, I think they've had pretty much equal years; I just give Bautista ever so slight an edge. So, to answer your question, sure, everything else being equal, I would swap Ellsbury's season for Bautista's. In other words, I don't think the Red Sox would be doing any worse this year if they had Bautista instead of Ellsbury, and they just might be doing a smidge better.
> 
> Another thing that bugs me about factoring team success into the question of "value": if the Red Sox make the playoffs by the narrowest of margins, it won't just mean that they wouldn't have made it without Jacoby Ellsbury. It would also mean that they wouldn't have made it without _any_ player who provided positive value for them, however slight. So, does that mean that Jed Lowrie and Josh Reddick and Jarrod Saltalamacchia belong ahead of Jose Bautista on an MVP ballot, too?--since, after all, their contributions had more value toward a postseason appearance than Bautista's did?
> 
> Anyway, just trying to make my reasoning more clear. Kind of funny how we're each arguing _against_ our team's guy winning the MVP. :lol


I liked your analogy, and it works...except you said it yourself, you aren't saying Bautista is a $20 and Ellsbury is a $10, you're saying they're both $20, or close to it. And your analogy is missing one important factor, that being...how much money do you need to get what you want?

So, let's take that analogy further and say you need a minimum of $35 in order to buy what you want(akin to making the playoffs).
You only have $28 with Bautista, and without him you'd have $8...either way, you're well short of getting what you want.
And since I have $50 with Ellsbury, and $30 without him, he's more valuable, even though they're equal overall.

Also, the position the Red Sox find themselves in, hanging on by a thread, is due to pitching. A few short weeks ago, they had been on a 4 and a half month tear, led by their lead-off hitter in Ellsbury. He's the "straw that stirs the drink".

I guess the way I look at Bautista's season is that, if he had, say...5 less home runs(for a season total of 38 instead of 43)...that would be enough for him to drop quite a bit in the MVP discussion.

Oh and the Jays are definitely not my team, I just live in Canada so I have to endure them. :lol It's been easier this year, thanks to Bautista and Lawrie.

I will agree, it's very close though. My ballot would be Ellsbury, Bautista, Granderson. I refuse to vote for a pitcher, there is a reason they have their own award...there are 162 games a year, and 130 of them are not influenced at all by a starting pitcher. If pitchers are the same as position players, and should be considered equally for the MVP, then there is no point in having the Cy Young award.


----------



## anonymid

the cheat said:


> So, let's take that analogy further and say you need a minimum of $35 in order to buy what you want(akin to making the playoffs).
> You only have $28 with Bautista, and without him you'd have $8...either way, you're well short of getting what you want.
> And since I have $50 with Ellsbury, and $30 without him, he's more valuable, even though they're equal overall.


He's not more valuable, though--20 bucks is 20 bucks; that's my whole point. Ellsbury _the individual_ is _not_ more valuable than Bautista _the individual_. The whole point is that if you had Bautista instead of Ellsbury, you also would have been able to buy that $35 thing. Ellsbury is just fortunate enough to be surrounded by more valuable teammates, and I don't believe in giving him extra credit for that for the purpose of an _individual award_. To factor in team performance defeats the whole purpose of an individual award, which is what the MVP is. The reason the Red Sox are better than the Blue Jays is not because Ellsbury is more valuable than Bautista, but because Gonzalez is more valuable than Adam Lind, Pedroia is more valuable than Aaron Hill, Lester is more valuable than Brandon Morrow, Papelbon more valuable than Jon Rauch, Ortiz more valuable than Edwin Encarnacion, etc. etc.


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## anonymid

As for pitchers winning the MVP, that's something I've gone back and forth on, but I'm ok with pitchers getting considered. They appear in far fewer games, but they also have a disproportionate impact on the games they do appear in, and I think it more or less evens out. Yeah, they have their own award, and that probably inclines me to give the tiebreaker to a comparably valuable position player. But as long as they're eligible for the award, I think they ought to be considered.


----------



## coldsorehighlighter

anonymid said:


> He's not more valuable, though--20 bucks is 20 bucks; that's my whole point. Ellsbury _the individual_ is _not_ more valuable than Bautista _the individual_. The whole point is that if you had Bautista instead of Ellsbury, you also would have been able to buy that $35 thing. Ellsbury is just fortunate enough to be surrounded by more valuable teammates, and I don't believe in giving him extra credit for that for the purpose of an _individual award_. To factor in team performance defeats the whole purpose of an individual award, which is what the MVP is. The reason the Red Sox are better than the Blue Jays is not because Ellsbury is more valuable than Bautista, but because Gonzalez is more valuable than Adam Lind, Pedroia is more valuable than Aaron Hill, Lester is more valuable than Brandon Morrow, Papelbon more valuable than Jon Rauch, Ortiz more valuable than Edwin Encarnacion, etc. etc.


I'm pretty sure the definition is the "most valuable player to his team"(maybe that's just the definition for the NHL's MVP award), and in that case, Ellsbury is more valuable to Boston than Bautista is to Toronto, this year. 
When measuring value, you have to consider what the end goal is and how much the player contributed to his team reaching their goals.
I just don't think Bautista is "more valuable to his team" because with him, or without him, they're a mediocre-to-average team.
In order for Bautista to win it, he'd have to have had far and away the better season...but he hasn't. When it's this close, it has to go to a player on a playoff-contending team.


----------



## anonymid

the cheat said:


> I'm pretty sure the definition is the "most valuable player to his team"(maybe that's just the definition for the NHL's MVP award), and in that case, Ellsbury is more valuable to Boston than Bautista is to Toronto, this year.
> When measuring value, you have to consider what the end goal is and how much the player contributed to his team reaching their goals.
> I just don't think Bautista is "more valuable to his team" because with him, or without him, they're a mediocre-to-average team.
> In order for Bautista to win it, he'd have to have had far and away the better season...but he hasn't. When it's this close, it has to go to a player on a playoff-contending team.


Bautista was very valuable to his team--the rest of the team just wasn't good enough to cash in on that value. Bautista's performance would help any team make the playoffs--but the rest of the team has to be good enough for that to happen.

And regardless, you still have the issue that I brought up earlier. The way you interpret "value to the team," Jed Lowrie and Josh Reddick and Alfredo Aceves are more valuable than Bautista, too (if the Red Sox end up making the playoffs). So, why should a player on a non-playoff team _ever_ appear _anywhere_ on an MVP ballot? It's inconsistent to say that his team's performance prevents Bautista from finishing first, but that's it's ok for him to finish second, third, fourth, or wherever. And for that matter, why would it be ok for Bautista to win even if he _was_ "far and away" better? If his team still didn't make the playoffs, then you could just say the exact same thing--that he didn't have "value to his team" because they didn't make the playoffs.


----------



## texaspenguin

Ok, for the Red Sox fans out there, I have to ask: how does it feel to have your playoff hopes pinned to the Yankees performance in the next two games?


----------



## Zeeshan

Jose Bautista is the best hitter in baseball.

He gets nothing to hit, with that scrub Lind behind him, and yet he has become the best hitter in baseball. Its not just homeruns, its just about every category, OBP, Slugging, OPS (Its not even close). Hank Aaron award should be his again.

But the MVP must come from a competing team.

I am not sure if the Redsox are competing for anything anymore. 

This was supposed to be a dream team. 

How the mighty have fallen


----------



## anonymid

Zeeshan said:


> But the MVP must come from a competing team.


No, it mustn't. Straight from the horse's mouth:



> _Dear Voter:
> 
> There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. *The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.*
> 
> The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:
> 
> 1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
> 
> 2. Number of games played.
> 
> 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
> 
> 4. Former winners are eligible.
> 
> 5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
> 
> You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from 1 to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot. Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration.
> 
> Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, including pitchers and designated hitters._


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## anonymid

texaspenguin said:


> Ok, for the Red Sox fans out there, I have to ask: how does it feel to have your playoff hopes pinned to the Yankees performance in the next two games?


It's not that big a deal to me, really. Whatever it takes to get the Red Sox into the postseason.


----------



## danberado

anonymid said:


> He's not more valuable, though--20 bucks is 20 bucks; that's my whole point. Ellsbury _the individual_ is _not_ more valuable than Bautista _the individual_. The whole point is that if you had Bautista instead of Ellsbury, you also would have been able to buy that $35 thing. Ellsbury is just fortunate enough to be surrounded by more valuable teammates, and I don't believe in giving him extra credit for that for the purpose of an _individual award_.


Hmmm, if this were real estate the values of adjacent properties effects the value of individual properties.


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## Zeeshan

I disagree

What value is a player to any team, if that team does not even make the post season

The team has failed in its objective, therefore what value is even the best player on a team that fails in its objective.


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## anonymid

Zeeshan said:


> I disagree
> 
> What value is a player to any team, if that team does not even make the post season
> 
> The team has failed in its objective, therefore what value is even the best player on a team that fails in its objective.


As long as you accept that you can't put Jose Bautista (or any other player from a non-playoff team) _anywhere_ on your ballot, then hey, fine. Define "value" however you want, as long as you're consistent about it.

And of course it means that Matt Kemp shouldn't appear anywhere on your NL MVP ballot, either.


----------



## Zeeshan

No one is a bigger Bautista fan then me.

I saw a guy who was a fringe MLB Player, one who couldnt even make an MLB Roster (In my opinion he would have had trouble getting a guarranteed contract) turn into an absoloute superstar, just because someone believed in him

That should be a lesson for all of us. That at any given time, a little belief can turn a frog into a prince.


----------



## anonymid

Zeeshan said:


> No one is a bigger Bautista fan then me.
> 
> I saw a guy who was a fringe MLB Player, one who couldnt even make an MLB Roster (In my opinion he would have had trouble getting a guarranteed contract) turn into an absoloute superstar, just because someone believed in him
> 
> That should be a lesson for all of us. That at any given time, a little belief can turn a frog into a prince.


I know, I know. Just arguing semantics. :b


----------



## Zeeshan

I cant believe the Redsox collapse, this is something historic

How do things go wrong like this all of a sudden. I cant see them winning the last two games against the Orioles either, I bet they are done


----------



## anonymid

As tough as this collapse has been for me as a Red Sox fan, there's no denying that the AL East is so much more fun to follow now that the Rays are competitive. They're a fun team to watch and root for, and I'll definitely be pulling for them in the playoffs if they make it.


----------



## Zeeshan

anonymid said:


> As tough as this collapse has been for me as a Red Sox fan, there's no denying that the AL East is so much more fun to follow now that the Rays are competitive. They're a fun team to watch and root for, and I'll definitely be pulling for them in the playoffs if they make it.


Its difficult for me to see so many Redsox fans upset. Afterall this is a team with 2 worlds series victorys, consistently making the playoffs for the last decade.

Its like watching a guy who gets laid all the time getting upset over losing one woman


----------



## coldsorehighlighter

anonymid said:


> Bautista was very valuable to his team--the rest of the team just wasn't good enough to cash in on that value. Bautista's performance would help any team make the playoffs--but the rest of the team has to be good enough for that to happen.
> 
> And regardless, you still have the issue that I brought up earlier. The way you interpret "value to the team," Jed Lowrie and Josh Reddick and Alfredo Aceves are more valuable than Bautista, too (if the Red Sox end up making the playoffs). So, why should a player on a non-playoff team _ever_ appear _anywhere_ on an MVP ballot? It's inconsistent to say that his team's performance prevents Bautista from finishing first, but that's it's ok for him to finish second, third, fourth, or wherever. And for that matter, why would it be ok for Bautista to win even if he _was_ "far and away" better? If his team still didn't make the playoffs, then you could just say the exact same thing--that he didn't have "value to his team" because they didn't make the playoffs.


You're right, Bautista was valuable to Toronto...they'd likely have finished closer to the Orioles if they had not had him. That doesn't make him the most valuable player in the league.
All his value is tied up in his power, though. He doesn't effect the rest of his team, the way Ellsbury does. Ellsbury, when he's not hitting home run's, is hitting singles, doubles, triples, turning singles into doubles by stealing second, turning doubles into triples by stealing third...all that havoc on the base-path has a direct influence on how pitchers on opposing teams pitch to his team mates.

And I'm not sure a player on a non-contending team should be considered to be eligible for the Most Valuable Player, even if his season was more outstanding.
We can look at the 2002 AL MVP voting for that, when A-Rod hit 57 HR, 142 RBI, .300/.392/.623/1.015(Avg/OBP/SLG/OPS) but still lost to Miguel Tejada's season of 34 HR, 131 RBI, .308/.354/.508/.861...all because A-Rod's Rangers finished last and Tejada's A's finished first.
Tejada's value to the A's was worth more than A-Rod's value to Texas, because the goal, as a team, is to win the division. There's no doubt A-Rod's season was more outstanding, but it's about value to one's team, relative to the goals of the team.

I think we may just have to agree to disagree on what is meant by valuable.


----------



## coldsorehighlighter

Zeeshan said:


> Its difficult for me to see so many Redsox fans upset. Afterall this is a team with 2 worlds series victorys, consistently making the playoffs for the last decade.
> 
> Its like watching a guy who gets laid all the time getting upset over losing one woman


I agree. Since October of 2004, the city(or that general area) has won 5 championships among its 4 teams. 
It would be a monumental collapse if they don't get in, but as Patrick Roy famously said to Jeremy Roenick after Roenick insulted him in the media, "I can't really heard what Jeremy said because...I got my 2 Stanley Cup rings plugging my ear." 
So anyone that wants to "make fun" of Red Sox fans or the people of Boston...c'mon mannnnnn.


----------



## anonymid

Watched the end of the Red Sox game, flipped the channel just in time to witness the end of the Rays game.

:cry


----------



## shynesshellasucks

anonymid said:


> Watched the end of the Red Sox game, flipped the channel just in time to witness the end of the Rays game.
> 
> :cry


This is crazy. I didnt see this coming. The Rays were down seven runs until the 8th inning. Papelbon blew the save too.


----------



## danberado

One homer shy of a 40-40 season


----------



## cities

I'm a baseball fan. My choices for the awards.

AL MVP: Jose Bautista

NL MVP: Matt Kemp

AL Cy Young: Justin Verlander

NL Cy Coung: Roy Halladay

AL Rookie of the Year: Jeremy Hellickson

NL Rookie of the Year: Wilson Ramos

AL Manager of the Year: Joe Maddon

NL Manager of the Year: Kirk Gibson


----------



## Samtrix

I'm curious as to why people are choosing Halladay over Kershaw for the NL Cy Young. Is it just because Halladay's team has a better record and made it to the postseason? Kershaw has better stats this year even with a team that is going through some major issues off the field, and to me, that's more impressive. The only thing Halladay has over Kershaw this season is 3 more complete games.

Halladay:
233.2 IP, 208 H, 19 W, 6 L, 35 BB, 220 SO, 1.04 WHIP, 2.35 ERA

Kershaw:
233.1 IP, 174 H, 21 W, 5 L, 54 BB, 248 SO, .98 WHIP, 2.28 ERA


----------



## anonymid

Samtrix said:


> I'm curious as to why people are choosing Halladay over Kershaw for the NL Cy Young. Is it just because Halladay's team has a better record and made it to the postseason? Kershaw has better stats this year even with a team that is going through some major issues off the field, and to me, that's more impressive. The only thing Halladay has over Kershaw this season is 3 more complete games.
> 
> Halladay:
> 233.2 IP, 208 H, 19 W, 6 L, 35 BB, 220 SO, 1.04 WHIP, 2.35 ERA
> 
> Kershaw:
> 233.1 IP, 174 H, 21 W, 5 L, 54 BB, 248 SO, .98 WHIP, 2.28 ERA


I think once you adjust for their home parks (the Phillies play in a hitter-friendly park, the Dodgers in a pitcher-friendly one), the stats are pretty much a wash. Cliff Lee ends up being pretty close too, for that matter. Any of those guys would be a deserving winner; it's splitting hairs, pretty much.


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## coldsorehighlighter

Samtrix said:


> I'm curious as to why people are choosing Halladay over Kershaw for the NL Cy Young. Is it just because Halladay's team has a better record and made it to the postseason? Kershaw has better stats this year even with a team that is going through some major issues off the field, and to me, that's more impressive. The only thing Halladay has over Kershaw this season is 3 more complete games.
> 
> Halladay:
> 233.2 IP, 208 H, 19 W, 6 L, 35 BB, 220 SO, 1.04 WHIP, 2.35 ERA
> 
> Kershaw:
> 233.1 IP, 174 H, 21 W, 5 L, 54 BB, 248 SO, .98 WHIP, 2.28 ERA


I think it's because we're human and so it's hard to be objective. Kershaw's numbers are slightly better, but there isn't a person who knows baseball that would choose Kershaw over Halladay to start in a must-win game. Halladay is a freak of nature.
Knowing Halladay's nature, I'd give it to Kershaw...because he had better numbers on a worse team, but also because it'll mean more to him. Halladay is only interested in one trophy anyways and that's the one with all the flags on it.


----------



## danberado

the cheat said:


> I think it's because we're human and so it's hard to be objective. Kershaw's numbers are slightly better, but there isn't a person who knows baseball that would choose Kershaw over Halladay to start in a must-win game. Halladay is a freak of nature.
> Knowing Halladay's nature, I'd give it to Kershaw...because he had better numbers on a worse team, but also because it'll mean more to him. Halladay is only interested in one trophy anyways and that's the one with all the flags on it.


I think that's only because Halladay has been around longer and is currently on a more successful team, for all we know Kershaw's career will progress as successfully as Halladay's. Holladay's years demonstrate consistency, it doesn't mean he was the best this year. This is Kershaw's fourth year, look at where Halladay was at in four years. Or even his break out fifth: close, but behind in most stats yet again.


----------



## coldsorehighlighter

danberado said:


> I think that's only because Halladay has been around longer and is currently on a more successful team, for all we know Kershaw's career will progress as successfully as Halladay's. Holladay's years demonstrate consistency, it doesn't mean he was the best this year. This is Kershaw's fourth year, look at where Halladay was at in four years. Or even his break out fifth: close, but behind in most stats yet again.


Everything is so close, it wouldn't be wrong to give it to either of them. I did say I would give it to Kershaw but I'm only about 55% to 60% on that.
Every argument has a counter-argument, I find. You say Kershaw pitched for a worse team. I say Halladay pitched under more pressure. 
The stats are so close, but this is Kershaw's best year by far, while it's a typical Halladay season...there's something to be said for that. Halladay even put up better numbers this year than he did last year, when he won the Cy Young.

Part of me wants to see Halladay win it, as it'll be his 3rd and that'll pretty much ensure he gets into the Hall of Fame, if it wasn't assured already.


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## texaspenguin

No one is giving Ian Kennedy any love here. Talk about a strong pitcher on a playoff contender...

Truly though, my vote would go like this:

NL

1. Kershaw
2. Kennedy
3. Halladay

AL

1. Verlander
2. Weaver
3. Shields
4. Sabathia


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## tribute311

As a dodgers fan, I say... CLAYTON KERSHAW!


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## anonymid

Did I mention that I love Adrian Beltre? Man, I would've loved it if the Sox had re-signed him. (Not that I mind that they opted to acquire Adrian Gonzalez instead.)


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## Samtrix

Kershaw is only 23. Halladay is doing this with 10 years more experience than Kershaw.
A typical Halladay season? In his last few years, yes, but at the same point in Halladay's career, Kershaw has performed better.

I'm with Texaspenguin in voting Michael Young for AL MVP. And with 3 home runs in a 4-3 postseason game, I'm loving Beltre too.


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## anonymid

I really don't see the Michael Young MVP argument. A guy with an .854 OPS (in a very hitter-friendly park) whose primary position was DH (and who's not very good defensively when he does take the field) . . . I just don't see it.

If there's an MVP candidate on the Rangers, it's probably Ian Kinsler, who was just as good offensively as Young (despite the big difference in batting average) and is an elite fielder at a key defensive position.

Really, though, the Rangers are good because they have a _lot_ of good players: Kinsler and Young, Napoli, Beltre, Hamilton, Cruz, Andrus . . . Young really doesn't stand out to me among those guys (in fact I would take almost all those guys over him), so I'm not sure he deserves any special MVP consideration. He's just a solid guy on a very well-built team.


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## texaspenguin

anonymid said:


> I really don't see the Michael Young MVP argument. A guy with an .854 OPS (in a very hitter-friendly park) whose primary position was DH (and who's not very good defensively when he does take the field) . . . I just don't see it.
> 
> If there's an MVP candidate on the Rangers, it's probably Ian Kinsler, who was just as good offensively as Young (despite the big difference in batting average) and is an elite fielder at a key defensive position.
> 
> Really, though, the Rangers are good because they have a _lot_ of good players: Kinsler and Young, Napoli, Beltre, Hamilton, Cruz, Andrus . . . Young really doesn't stand out to me among those guys (in fact I would take almost all those guys over him), so I'm not sure he deserves any special MVP consideration. He's just a solid guy on a very well-built team.


You're probably in the majority with people that don't see Michael Young as an MVP candidate, but here's the argument for him:

1. He led the league in hits with 213 (tied with Adrian Gonzalez who also plays in a very hitter-friendly park, especially for a hitter like him).
2. He finished second for the batting title (behind Cabrera)
3. He had only 11 homers, but he still managed to drive in 106 runs. This means that he drove in runners on base for 95 of those RBI. Cabrera, for instance, drove in less runs (105) with the benefit of 19 more homers (30) meaning he drove in himself 30 times and runners on base 75 times. You can't always count on the homer, so driving in runners on base is valuable.
4. Young played in 159 games. One of the three games that he took off all year was after the Rangers had clinched. Talk about an every day player.
5. Young's primary position was NOT at DH. He played 91 of his 159 games in the field. In doing so, he played all four infield positions. He committed only eight errors in all that time. Granted, his fielding percentage isn't the best ever, but imagine some of the other MVP candidates playing 1B, 2B, and 3B. Bautista could play a couple, but I can't picture him as a middle infielder.
6. The word "valuable" holds context with how he mattered to his team. During the season, was any player truly more "valuable"? Would the Rangers have fended off the Angels to make the playoffs without him? Hamilton was injured, so Young batted third. Beltre was injured, so Young played third. Young was also able to give Kinsler some rest at 2B (important given his injury history).
7. Intangibles. If you're a fan of the intangibles, look at the way Young leads that team. The team truly follows him and goes as he does. With all of the offseason issues, he could've easily been a malcontent. Instead, he had one of his best seasons ever at age 34. Although the Mike Napoli trade was truly the catalyst that upset Michael Young, he handled it as a professional and embraced Napoli. I can't imagine not having Napoli this season with the Rangers, and the fact that Young embraced him made him more comfortable.


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## anonymid

1. & 2. Hits and batting average are nice, but they are only part of the picture. Cabrera, Bautista, and Gonzalez have huge advantages over Young in walks and home runs. They all reached base more often than Young (or, in other words, made fewer outs), had more extra-base hits, more total bases . . . Young had a nice offensive season, but he was not in the same company as those three.

3. If you're going to look at RBI, then you need to look at runs scored, too, since those are the other half of run production. Kinsler actually had more R+RBI this season than Young. Cabrera had one less RBI but 23 more R. Gonzalez had six more RBI and 20 more R. Bautista had three fewer RBI but 17 more R.

Young did do a good job of driving in the runners who were on base in front of him--but as always, that's dependent on those guys getting on base in front of him in the first place, which is why RBI is not a great stat for evaluating individual performance.

4. Yes, Young did play in a lot of games. That's certainly to his credit. (It's also to the credit of such players as Nick Markakis, Juan Pierre, and Alcides Escobar. )

5a. Young played more games at DH than at any other position, which is what I meant by "primary position," but you're right that he did play more games in the field. Still, 69 games at DH is a lot for a guy to be considered for MVP, especially when a big chunk of his other games came at first base (which, for good reason, is where DHs tend to play when they're not playing DH).

5b. Fielding percentage is really besides the point; the problem with Young defensively is his range. I've never heard him described as anything but a poor defender (below average at best), and every defensive stat I've seen that attempts to measure range agrees with that judgment. The job of a fielder is to make plays, and you can't make plays on balls you don't get to, which is why range is the most important thing. (And, as the saying goes, you can't make errors on balls you don't get to either, which is why judging a fielder by his fielding percentage can be very misleading.) The Rangers have elite defenders at second, third, and short; there's a reason why Young was moved to DH, and it's because he's just not a very good fielder. There's no reason to play him in the field unless you absolutely have to.

(Also, I can think of a few MVP candidates who can play second base: Ian Kinsler, Dustin Pedroia, and Robinson Cano. The only reason they're not thought of as MVP candidates is because a lot of people still really, really underrate the ability to play an important defensive position well.)

6. I think of "value" like this: how difficult would this player's performance and skillset have been to replace? A guy who can put up an .850 OPS as a DH and as a (below-average) defensive fill-in has some value, but I don't see how he's nearly as valuable as a guy who can hit just as well or better while playing excellent defense at an important position such as second, third, short, catcher, or center field. Guys who can do what Kinsler or Beltre can are tough to find, and much harder to replace than someone who can do what Young can do. Catchers who can hit like Napoli or center fielders who can hit like Hamilton are extremely difficult to find, too, and so they have a lot of value. Now, missed time is a factor; otherwise Beltre and Napoli might be legit MVP candidates this year (though that didn't stop Hamilton from winning last year, and I think he was a deserving choice).

Basically, I think the bar has to be really high for players who don't offer much defensive value to be considered MVP--you have to hit at a Cabrera or Gonzalez kind of level, and neither of those guys would be my MVP pick either. (Even though I'm a Red Sox fan, I was never on the Gonzalez-for-MVP bandwagon earlier in the year.)

7. As for intangibles, well, by definition there's no way to really debate those objectively, so I don't have much to say. Intangibles exist, but they'd have to be pretty extraordinary to make up for what seem to me to be pretty major tangible differences between Young and a whole lot of other players. I just don't think there's much he could do to make him a legit MVP candidate in my mind. 

Anyway, whew! I think I'm done. That ended up being a long post, haha.


----------



## Samtrix

anonymid said:


> the problem with Young defensively is his range. I've never heard him described as anything but a poor defender (below average at best)


So what about that Gold Glove award for SS in 2008? His defensive numbers aren't as great as some, but that's because he hasn't been dedicating his time to one position. His value is that he can play all infield positions with solid defense, allowing other position players to get rest and reduce their risk of getting injured or burned out, or like texaspenguin said, to replace one of them when they do get injured. Who else would they get to do that, Blanco? If the Rangers weren't comfortable with Young's defense, they wouldn't be playing him at 4 different positions.
As for intangibles, you don't think leadership qualities are important? Ortiz admitted that a big problem for the Red Sox was that there was no clear team captain to keep the team going strong when they were down, and I doubt I have to point out how that ended.

If he's not the MVP of the AL, he's is definitely the MVP of the Rangers.


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## anonymid

Samtrix said:


> So what about that Gold Glove award for SS in 2008? His defensive numbers aren't as great as some, but that's because he hasn't been dedicating his time to one position. His value is that he can play all infield positions with solid defense, allowing other position players to get rest and reduce their risk of getting injured or burned out, or like texaspenguin said, to replace one of them when they do get injured. Who else would they get to do that, Blanco? If the Rangers weren't comfortable with Young's defense, they wouldn't be playing him at 4 different positions.
> As for intangibles, you don't think leadership qualities are important? Ortiz admitted that a big problem for the Red Sox was that there was no clear team captain to keep the team going strong when they were down, and I doubt I have to point out how that ended.
> 
> If he's not the MVP of the AL, he's is definitely the MVP of the Rangers.


I do think leadership is important, but I don't think necessarily makes someone the MVP if his on-field performance isn't up there with the best. If you want to use intangibles as a tiebreaker in a tight race, that's fine, but again, I don't think Young is even close as far as on-field performance goes. And in any case, everyone's just going to say that the guy on their team has the better intangibles, so that doesn't really get anybody anywhere. :b

As for the defense: not dedicating himself to one position hasn't prevented Ben Zobrist from being an elite defender, so I don't buy that argument. And Gold Gloves are pretty meaningless; Rafael Palmeiro once won a Gold Glove in a season where he played only twenty-something games in the field. They're voted on by the managers, I think, who usually aren't paying much attention to other teams except when they play them. So, a guy makes one or two good plays against their team, so they vote for that guy for the GG; or they just lazily vote for the guy who made the fewest errors or has the best fielding percentage, or something like that. There have been plenty of undeserving Gold Glove winners, and Young is probably one of them. I've just never heard anything very good about his defensive ability.

As for the Rangers, I don't know, even if Young is the leader, I couldn't call him the MVP of that team. I'd have to go with Kinsler for this season, and Beltre, Napoli, and Hamilton would be pretty good candidates if they hadn't missed time. Jason Varitek has been a good leader on the Red Sox for a long time, but there's not any season where I'd say he's been the team MVP, or anything close to it. On-field performance has to count for the bulk of that; that's ultimately what wins or loses games.


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## Samtrix

I guess MVP will be an on-going debate, as it should be. It makes for a more interesting season when there are so many deserving players.

I also agree with Zobrist being an under-rated player. He's done well for my fantasy team.


----------



## Ironpain

Cardinals Chances of beating the Phillies on Friday with Halladay on the mount? Personally I really like the Phillies particular because Halladay was a Jay, like someone once said no point wondering what could have been. This is a team that always starts out great in the regular season and the playoffs prove too much for them. Maybe they will prove that they have the heart to make it.


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## anonymid

The Cardinals will have a decent chance. You have to favor the Phillies with Halladay, but he's not invincible, and the Cardinals have the better offense (especially with Holliday back in the lineup), and Carpenter is a pretty good pitcher in his own right. So, I won't be too surprised by any outcome.


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## Ironpain

anonymid said:


> The Cardinals will have a decent chance. You have to favor the Phillies with Halladay, but he's not invincible, and the Cardinals have the better offense (especially with Holliday back in the lineup), and Carpenter is a pretty good pitcher in his own right. So, I won't be too surprised by any outcome.


Holliday ah yes was wondering about the spelling of his name lol I called him Halliday lmao. So how are you holding up in these playoffs, since Boston is not in who are you hoping makes it, Well obviously tonight your hoping The Tigers knock out the Yankees  but other than that who are you looking at. I assume The Rangers maybe looking for something from Beltre and Kinsler. Perhaps you'll take The Cardinals. Your right though that game could have any out come. No he's not invincible and last year proved that despite his stats it wasn't enough to take them all the way. I think The Rangers have a great chance again.


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## coldsorehighlighter

Here's to you...Newwww Yorkkkk, Newww Yorkkk...da da dadada, da da dadada

Thheeeeeeeeeee Yankees loooooooooseeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Detroit vs Texas should be good...I think Texas wins though.


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## anonymid

:yay


----------



## rdrr

Alex Rodriguez has no business playing baseball after September.


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## Ironpain

anonymid said:


> :yay


I knew it  I had no doubt in my mind, A ROD A CHOKE, CHOKE ROD. Think A ROD will finally quit, of course Derek Jeter will continue to kiss Yankees *** so no point in getting him to quit while he's ahead. Congrats to you though, you got to be thinking it was the spirit of the Red Sox that beat the Yank's


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## Ironpain

rdrr said:


> Alex Rodriguez has no business playing baseball after September.


He has no business playing baseball period, he is a Market player, Market Players like A Rod are nothing more than Media and Endorsement Darlings who sit on (well I don't need to tell you where they sit) on the... of corporate companies while the real baseball players get passing recognition but never get the same fan fair, I hate when Players are given this King like treatment and than Choke. It seems like there's Majority Yankee hate here lol. I wish the Jays were in this I really really hoped but I know with their finances and what not they are not ready to compete at the level needed to make it here. To be quite honest I'd really like to see The Rangers take it all the way.


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## coldsorehighlighter

Ironpain said:


> He has no business playing baseball period, he is a Market player, Market Players like A Rod are nothing more than Media and Endorsement Darlings who sit on (well I don't need to tell you where they sit) on the... of corporate companies while the real baseball players get passing recognition but never get the same fan fair, I hate when Players are given this King like treatment and than Choke. It seems like there's Majority Yankee hate here lol. I wish the Jays were in this I really really hoped *but I know with their finances* and what not they are not ready to compete at the level needed to make it here. To be quite honest I'd really like to see The Rangers take it all the way.


You mean the Toronto Blue Jays? That team owned by a company that had over $11 billion in revenue last year?
They have the finances, trust me...what they haven't had, until now, is "draft...develop...then spend" philosophy, and a smart general manager.
Wait until 2013 or 2014, and the Jays will be up with the Boston's, New York's, Philly's and Chicago's.


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## Ironpain

the cheat said:


> You mean the Toronto Blue Jays? That team owned by a company that had over $11 billion in revenue last year?
> They have the finances, trust me...what they haven't had, until now, is "draft...develop...then spend" philosophy, and a smart general manager.
> Wait until 2013 or 2014, and the Jays will be up with the Boston's, New York's, Philly's and Chicago's.


Eek yeah I forgot their fiscal wager oops yes, and Bautista was Beasting but of course you couldn't expect him to actually carry this team, no they have no draft and spend philosophy check (your right on that front) and they lack in a smart general manager. Are you talking about the Cubs? LMAO  Well at least they aren't the Cubs but their last post season was what 1993 wow. One day like you said they will be up there.


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## Ironpain

Question of the day- How long before A Rod the clutch Choker is fired? There's no chance no matter how ****ty the Yankees get, heck it could be worse they could be The Cubs or in this season The Mariners and Derek Jeter would still pucker his lips under the great media darlings that are the stankees.


----------



## coldsorehighlighter

Ironpain said:


> Eek yeah I forgot their fiscal wager oops yes, and Bautista was Beasting but of course you couldn't expect him to actually carry this team, no they have no draft and spend philosophy check (your right on that front) and they lack in a smart general manager. Are you talking about the Cubs? LMAO  Well at least they aren't the Cubs but their last post season was what 1993 wow. One day like you said they will be up there.


:lolThe Cubs have spent money insanely, but that's not the way you build teams. Even the Yankees and Red Sox drafted extremely well, before they ended up with massive payrolls. 
The Jays are doing it right, they have a real smart general manager now, they're spending more than any other team in terms of scouts. They are drafting guys they wouldn't normally draft, because they are now willing to give big signing bonuses.

I just get kinda irritated when fans refer to Toronto as a poor, small market team...couldn't be further from reality, they've just been mismanaged for years. No more...


----------



## Ironpain

the cheat said:


> :lolThe Cubs have spent money insanely, but that's not the way you build teams. Even the Yankees and Red Sox drafted extremely well, before they ended up with massive payrolls.
> The Jays are doing it right, they have a real smart general manager now, they're spending more than any other team in terms of scouts. They are drafting guys they wouldn't normally draft, because they are now willing to give big signing bonuses.
> 
> I just get kinda irritated when fans refer to Toronto as a poor, small market team...couldn't be further from reality, they've just been mismanaged for years. No more...


Hence why overpayrod is a choker. HAHAHA Choker Rod twice he has choked and :lol yes The Cubs are a perfect example how not to build a team but the Yankees prove just because you get the best players for your dollar doesn't mean the entire team will deliver. People are realizing the Stankees can't buy their way out but the Jays have a future. Will we ever see an Epic Joe Carter hit again that's way way way too early but Bautista could very well be the man to beast them into the world series in 5 years if not more.


----------



## Samtrix

the cheat said:


> the Jays will be up with the Boston's, New York's, Philly's and Chicago's.


Are you talking about the Chicago team with the .488 record this season or .438 record?

I'm gonna cry if CJ Wilson signs with the Yankees...actually, if he signs with anyone but the Rangers. I'm hoping that players start to realize that the highest paying contract isn't always the best contract (thank you, Cliff Lee). And while I'm talking about Lee, why can't announcers stop talking about Lee with the Rangers? That was a year ago, it's completely irrelevant now. They were headed to the postseason before they acquired him. He had all of 4 wins for them out of 15 starts in the regular season, with 6 losses. Yes, he was dominant in the postseason, but stop talking like the Rangers can't win without him.


----------



## coldsorehighlighter

Samtrix said:


> Are you talking about the Chicago team with the .488 record this season or .438 record?
> 
> I'm gonna cry if CJ Wilson signs with the Yankees...actually, if he signs with anyone but the Rangers. I'm hoping that players start to realize that the highest paying contract isn't always the best contract (thank you, Cliff Lee). And while I'm talking about Lee, why can't announcers stop talking about Lee with the Rangers? That was a year ago, it's completely irrelevant now. They were headed to the postseason before they acquired him. He had all of 4 wins for them out of 15 starts in the regular season, with 6 losses. Yes, he was dominant in the postseason, but stop talking like the Rangers can't win without him.


:lol Oh, I wasn't talking about records, I meant the Chicago teams that spent $130 million and $125 million on salaries this past year. The Jays spent $62 million, but it won't be long before they're up around $100 million to $130 million...they just won't do it as stupidly as other teams have, like both Chicago teams, the Mets, etc.

I also agree on Wilson, he should stay in Texas. Very few pitchers have the mentality needed to pitch in New York, and the way his career has progressed, I don't think he's one of them.


----------



## anonymid

Samtrix said:


> And while I'm talking about Lee, why can't announcers stop talking about Lee with the Rangers? That was a year ago, it's completely irrelevant now. They were headed to the postseason before they acquired him. He had all of 4 wins for them out of 15 starts in the regular season, with 6 losses. Yes, he was dominant in the postseason, but stop talking like the Rangers can't win without him.


I totally agree. People often overstate the impact that one player can have in baseball. It's not a sport like basketball (or football, to an extent) where you can put the ball in the hands of your best player on every play if you want to. A great pitcher can only pitch once every five days, a great hitter can only take one out of every nine of his team's plate appearances, and a great fielder can only make plays on the balls that happen to be hit his way. Even the very best players just can't carry a team the way the best players in other sports can.

The Rangers were a good team before they acquired Lee, and they were still a good team after they lost him. And considering the upgrades they made with Beltre and Napoli, on the whole they're probably a better team than they were last year even with Lee. The pitching staff is still pretty solid in its own right--and given how good the offense is, solid is all it has to be.


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## Ironpain

Your Top 10 most overrated Teams in baseball and No Yankees  (just kidding mention them if you want) if your a fan of that particular team don't mention them. What makes a team overrated? is it bandwagoning, overhyped media exposure (I said no yankees haha) overrated players (what did I say about The Yankees) What is the worst thing a team and it's fans can do? Could any ever accuse your team of being too hyped up? Thanks and I agree about Cliff Lee get over it seriously that was then this is now.


----------



## texaspenguin

the cheat said:


> :lol Oh, I wasn't talking about records, I meant the Chicago teams that spent $130 million and $125 million on salaries this past year. The Jays spent $62 million, but it won't be long before they're up around $100 million to $130 million...they just won't do it as stupidly as other teams have, like both Chicago teams, the Mets, etc.
> 
> I also agree on Wilson, he should stay in Texas. Very few pitchers have the mentality needed to pitch in New York, and the way his career has progressed, I don't think he's one of them.


So how do you see them spending their money? Remember, this is a team that unloaded Roy Halladay in his prime because he was getting too expensive. Do you see them breaking the bank to sign Bautista long-term, signing free agents (and if so, which ones), or doing something else completely? Whether or not a team has a money is no matter. It's a willingness to spend it. We've learned in the last 10 years that spending money doesn't equal championships. The best teams spend their money wisely. And I'm not flaming you. I'm just wondering how you see them pushing their payroll upward.


----------



## Samtrix

the cheat said:


> :lol Oh, I wasn't talking about records


I see, sorry for the misunderstanding. I've only been following baseball for 2 years now, so payroll is a bit above my head still. I am fairly sure that there's a debate about the A's and Moneyball somewhere in my brain, as far as payroll goes.
I agree with my baseball mentor, I don't see Toronto spending that kind of money. They're not a hockey team. Canadians don't love baseball enough to warrant the Jays spending that much. I wasn't even aware that the Jays had won two World Series until recently.

I would definitely take Napoli and Beltre over Lee. The Rangers got lucky (for lack of a better term) that Ogando, Holland and Harrison performed as well as they did. I am curious as to how the pitching rotation and bullpen will look next year. Feliz as a starter, Ogando back in the bp, Feldman starting again, Oliver retiring (PLEASE)? I could even see Lewis being traded. I don't see any major trades for position players, except maybe Murphy.


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## Ironpain

Haha Fielder only talks to ESPN:lol Morgan: F yeah F Yeah, thoughts, Really Really Really hope the Phillies find a way to win this but if if the Cards make it I will wish them the best of luck the rest of the way as they have a former Jay in Carpenter. Sorry to our two other former Jays Aaron Hill and John McDonald on your loss.


----------



## Ironpain

A Roid Not even close to being worth that ludicrous $30 Mill a year. The Yankees are in for over $200 mill over the next 7 years For that kind of money you'd better freaking produce in the clutch, and do very well when you're down to your last game, and last bat specifically. 

For him to go 2-18 against the Tigers is just pathetic and completely and totally unacceptable. For that kind of money you'd better lead in multiple categories in hitting and fielding. Just leading in HRs is not good enough. 

If you really want to talk about a Choker Yankee the fans will tell you it's Burnett but I think he redeemed himself against Detroit when he was facing them. 

NO excuses.


----------



## Ironpain

I really thought the Brewers celebration was abit over the top, I don't mind them being really excited to make it since this is the first time they have been here in 29 years but seriously champagne and F yeah's??? Really felt it was so over the top oh come on Morgan could have been a little more classy. :roll yeah was kind of overdramatic.


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## Illmatic123

Lol Morgan is funny. It's only because of him and Fielder that I like the Brewers. I'm really pulling for Philadelphia tonight...I'd hate to see such a great team go down this early. Plus a Brewers Phillies NLCS would be epic.


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## danberado

Maybe you don't know Tony Plush too well  

Super excited about the Brewers win. They're a colorful bunch who are fun to watch. 

Fielder and Braun for performance.
Corey Hart for being a decent player completely in the shadow of the above mentioned.
Plush for being a megalomaniac.
Zack Greinke for being super awkward.
John Axford for that outrageous mustache.
K-Rod for looking likes he's going to spin off his feet like a cartoon character every other pitch he throws.


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## Ironpain

danberado said:


> Maybe you don't know Tony Plush too well
> 
> Super excited about the Brewers win. They're a colorful bunch who are fun to watch.
> 
> Fielder and Braun for performance.
> Corey Hart for being a decent player completely in the shadow of the above mentioned.
> Plush for being a megalomaniac.
> Zack Greinke for being super awkward.
> John Axford for that outrageous mustache.
> K-Rod for looking likes he's going to spin off his feet like a cartoon character every other pitch he throws.


 I respect Zack Greinke because he's one of us I think Axford looks like a Hippie from the 70's (I'm suddenly thinking of the Cream song) I don't think this defines the Brewers overall but stand by the fact that that moment was a little over the top but hey they have a right to be really happy they worked very hard for this moment


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## texaspenguin

Ironpain said:


> A Roid Not even close to being worth that ludicrous $30 Mill a year. The Yankees are in for over $200 mill over the next 7 years For that kind of money you'd better freaking produce in the clutch, and do very well when you're down to your last game, and last bat specifically.
> 
> For him to go 2-18 against the Tigers is just pathetic and completely and totally unacceptable. For that kind of money you'd better lead in multiple categories in hitting and fielding. Just leading in HRs is not good enough.
> 
> If you really want to talk about a Choker Yankee the fans will tell you it's Burnett but I think he redeemed himself against Detroit when he was facing them.
> 
> NO excuses.


I was wondering when someone would finally jump on A-Roid. Two years in a row, the Yankee season has ended on an A-Roid strikeout.


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## Ironpain

texaspenguin said:


> I was wondering when someone would finally jump on A-Roid. Two years in a row, the Yankee season has ended on an A-Roid strikeout.


 Better name for this guy Choker Rod seriously Two years in a row The Yankees Season has ended on this choke job.


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## danberado

Over the top, yes, but completely predictable given 1) Its Plush 2) hard-fought extra innings game 3) first post season series the franchise has won in decades.

Though its true that the team is known to play-to-the-crowd/showboat when playing at Miller Park, it's never really bothered me.


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## RUFB2327

I'm a Phillies fan and baseball is by far my favorite sport. I get so worked up over the games especially the playoffs that I think it's gonna be what kills me, most likely from a heart attack. Im stressing big time right now lol.


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## Ironpain

RUFB2327 said:


> I'm a Phillies fan and baseball is by far my favorite sport. I get so worked up over the games especially the playoffs that I think it's gonna be what kills me, most likely from a heart attack. Im stressing big time right now lol.


 Really Rooting for the Philles myself  So great to have a Phillies fan alongside me. I don't know if it's the umps that are being biased against Halladay or the fact that the Announcers seem to be calling games in favor of the Cardinals but all this hype about the Cardinals who only what 2 months ago considered rude when Molina spat on the ump. Sigh. Come on Phillies


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## RUFB2327

Ironpain said:


> Really Rooting for the Philles myself  So great to have a Phillies fan alongside me. I don't know if it's the umps that are being biased against Halladay or the fact that the Announcers seem to be calling games in favor of the Cardinals but all this hype about the Cardinals who only what 2 months ago considered rude when Molina spat on the ump. Sigh. Come on Phillies


I feel like most announcers are biased against the phillies lol. I don't know why, maybe it's just me, but if you don't like the phillies, it seems most people like to hate them.

Huge inning right here for the phils. HUGE


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## Ironpain

RUFB2327 said:


> I feel like most announcers are biased against the phillies lol. I don't know why, maybe it's just me, but if you don't like the phillies, it seems most people like to hate them.
> 
> Huge inning right here for the phils. HUGE


 The Phillies need to silence those critics who say they are a choker team in the post season they need to show they aren't the Yankees and can come through when it counts. Come on Phillies. We don't always throw strikes (Oh yes we do) but when we do we like to strike out Pujols stay focused my friends.


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## Illmatic123

Lol what a joke watching baseball is becoming if the Cardinals make it into the world series. As with the Giants last year...nobody wanted to see them in the World Series, they wanted the entertaining teams. I realize that thats baseball, but I hate seeing lesser teams move up in the postseason while the truly good teams get knocked out.


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## Ironpain

not happy right now, Phillies again managed to joke and it's upsetting me right now but I'll get over it, we can still keep Halladay but we need to do something to improve that offense. Come on Phillies still Phitting for you, come on back next year and Charlie come on do something with your line up 3x's and your just trying to make me out to be a fool. Come on Phitting Phills you need to rise above


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## anonymid

Wow, what an awesome game! I love a good pitchers' duel, especially in a big game like that. Great divisional round as a whole, really. Three game fives, and they're all one-run games. Loved it!


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## RUFB2327

So mad right now. Most wins in franchise history this season, and they lose in the first round to a team they should have wiped the floor with.


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## danberado

Illmatic123 said:


> Lol what a joke watching baseball is becoming if the Cardinals make it into the world series. As with the Giants last year...nobody wanted to see them in the World Series, they wanted the entertaining teams. I realize that thats baseball, but I hate seeing lesser teams move up in the postseason while the truly good teams get knocked out.


I'm completely the opposite, I prefer seeing the underdog teams overcome odds. Its much more compelling. Comebacks are way more interesting and full of heart than ongoing success.

As a Dodger's fan I'm delighted for Furcal's post season success!

Brewers have been my number one choice for world series, Cardinals have been my number two choice. This played out exactly how I'd hoped. Also glad that the Yankees are out of the mix.


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## Illmatic123

I'm probably a bit biased and speaking through dissappointment atm though lol. One I'm a huge Halladay fan, and two I was mad that the Cardinals took it from the Braves at the last minute because I felt the Braves deserved it more and just got stuck with a cold streak at the end. Then on top of that, the Cardinals go and topple the best team in baseball.
I just won't feel like I'm watching the best possible baseball matchups for the next round. I'll be watching a great team (Milwaukee) and a team that just barely scraped by all season. It bores me.
Even though I'm a diehard A's fan, I don't want to see them in the postseason again until they have a really good team going (which seems impossible to get with Billy Beane and his awful moneyball strategy).


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## danberado

The A's didn't scrap their way through 90 wins though. A win is a win. 

I find it hard to believe that making it to post season, then beating the de facto best team in the league in the first round doesn't merit recognition as a really good team. It's not like they were under .500 or anything.


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## Ironpain

RUFB2327 said:


> So mad right now. Most wins in franchise history this season, and they lose in the first round to a team they should have wiped the floor with.


I know what your feeling right now as a Jay's fan as well being from To I know what it is to be frustrated (oh wait that's for the Cubs lol) but seriously I know


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## coldsorehighlighter

texaspenguin said:


> So how do you see them spending their money? Remember, this is a team that unloaded Roy Halladay in his prime because he was getting too expensive. Do you see them breaking the bank to sign Bautista long-term, signing free agents (and if so, which ones), or doing something else completely? Whether or not a team has a money is no matter. It's a willingness to spend it. We've learned in the last 10 years that spending money doesn't equal championships. The best teams spend their money wisely. And I'm not flaming you. I'm just wondering how you see them pushing their payroll upward.


Oh that's okay, I wouldn't have thought you were flaming me. But how weird is it to be talking about the Blue Jays in the middle of the MLB playoffs? :lol

Anyways, for now, they are spending their money on their scouting staff, especially international scouting. Also, they used to avoid drafting top level players because they knew the player would want too much money in signing bonuses, but now they're willing to spend there, because their new GM is all about talent over signability(that's not a word but hopefully you know what I mean).
As for Halladay, finances aren't why they let him go. They traded him out of respect, because they were going into yet another rebuild and he deserved the chance to win. They didn't want to trade him and he really didn't want to go, but it made too much sense for both sides. And, they've already signed Bautista to an amazing deal.
I also agree that just spending money to spend money doesn't work...the Jays are working on a hybrid of how Tampa does it and how the Yanks/Sox do it.
They're drafting/developing their own players, and when they mature, they'll add free agents around them.



Samtrix said:


> I see, sorry for the misunderstanding. I've only been following baseball for 2 years now, so payroll is a bit above my head still. I am fairly sure that there's a debate about the A's and Moneyball somewhere in my brain, as far as payroll goes.
> I agree with my baseball mentor, I don't see Toronto spending that kind of money. They're not a hockey team. Canadians don't love baseball enough to warrant the Jays spending that much. I wasn't even aware that the Jays had won two World Series until recently.
> 
> I would definitely take Napoli and Beltre over Lee. The Rangers got lucky (for lack of a better term) that Ogando, Holland and Harrison performed as well as they did. I am curious as to how the pitching rotation and bullpen will look next year. Feliz as a starter, Ogando back in the bp, Feldman starting again, Oliver retiring (PLEASE)? I could even see Lewis being traded. I don't see any major trades for position players, except maybe Murphy.


Canadians don't love baseball as much as hockey that's true. But in the early 90's, the Jays were playing to 55,000 fans, 81 times a year...for years. Then the strike happened, ownership changed, and they started down the "we're only 1 big free agent away from winning" path...which was not the case, just terrible management.

Nice to hear you're new to baseball though, I love when new fans emerge...it's a beautiful game when it's played right.


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## coldsorehighlighter

I hope they change the first round to best of 7 soon. Baseball is so dumb like that. They play 162 games, you need to win 90 of them to make the playoffs...and then you play a maximum of 19 games in October, to win what most people would say is the more important thing, the World Series. Baseball has a love affair with winning your division...to some, that's more important than winning in October.


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## anonymid

Wow, that was a heck of a game. This has been a very entertaining postseason.


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## Samtrix

First walk-off grand slam in post season history. Guess that's what happens when you intentionally walk Napoli to get to Cruz, then hit him in the wrist. That game was way too interesting. I can finally breath now!


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## texaspenguin

Ironpain said:


> not happy right now, Phillies again managed to joke and it's upsetting me right now but I'll get over it, we can still keep Halladay but we need to do something to improve that offense. Come on Phillies still Phitting for you, come on back next year and Charlie come on do something with your line up 3x's and your just trying to make me out to be a fool. Come on Phitting Phills you need to rise above


What are your thoughts on Rollins?


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## texaspenguin

Go Rangers!


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## Ironpain

texaspenguin said:


> What are your thoughts on Rollins?


To be honest it's hard to say he didn't play as well as he should.


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## Atticus

Tony plush is strangely quiet right now :b


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## nycdude

The Yankees need to upgrade some players and they really need better pitchers.


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## danberado

Atticus said:


> Tony plush is strangely quiet right now :b


I wonder if he got reprimanded for shouting "F*** Yeah! F*** Yeah!" after beating the D-Backs.


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## coldsorehighlighter

Cardinals vs Rangers...that's cool. I gotta go with Texas, in 6 games. Cardinals win both of Carpenters starts in Game 1 and Game 5(or game 4)...but that's it.


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## fonz

Expect to see Mr. Bush at a few Rangers games:


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## melissa75

Omg this game is soooo longggg. I feel like I was still in my 20's when this game started. Tireddddd. LET's go RANgers!


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## anonymid

Loved seeing Beltre hit one of his signature down-on-one-knee home runs tonight! He did that a few times with the Red Sox last year.


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## coldsorehighlighter

I hope I'm not the only one watching the end of Game 6...insane!!!


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## Heyrayray

Wow what a game! Cardinals have heart


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## foe

FVCK YOU TEXAS!!!! 

You were one out away from the championship twice(9th & 10th) and failed. 

I gotta work in 5 hours.


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## melissa75

This is ridiculous . Come on Rangers!!


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## rdrr

Playoff Beard power from Berkman.


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## coldsorehighlighter

melissa75 said:


> This is ridiculous . Come on Rangers!!


The Rangers look like they've been watching the Cowboys play football a little too much. What's next, is Tony Romo going to pitch?


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## melissa75

the cheat said:


> The Rangers look like they've been watching the Cowboys play football a little too much. What's next, is Tony Romo going to pitch?


IDK, but it looks like they have a few hours to figure it out. Game 7 here we come. Can't believe I stayed up for this :mum


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## foe

OK, Fck the Rangers for making me stay up this late. 

I hope you lose Game 7 now.


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## fonz

Gutting for Texas - now watch the Cards walk away with the World Series in game 7...


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## Illmatic123

Ugh.


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## danberado

Excellent


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## Atticus

Now that I'm breathing. That's what I'm talkin about. **** **** **** **** **** **** **** :clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap

You have included 76 images in your message. You are limited to using 10 images so please go back and correct the problem and then continue again.


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## danberado

Jettisoned.


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## Fantas Eyes

Ron Washington and that pitcher are going to be reliving game 6 for the rest of their lives.


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## identitycrisis

After Game 6, there's no way in hell the Cards were losing Game 7.


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## EagerMinnow84

Well wasn't that disappointing.

Now the Rangers can join the Cubs in the worst Game 6 meltdowns. 6 outs away from going to the world series, 1 strike away from winning the world series. 

Blah.


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## Atticus

:boogie:boogie:boogie:boogie:boogie:boogie:boogie

Just got to the computer. I'm half in shock. Game 6, at least the last 5 innings, was the most exciting baseball I've ever watched. Game 7 started shaky, but when Carp's curveball started to bite I felt like we were going to do it. Holy ****


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## nycdude

Congrats St.Louis, next year the Yankees win it all.


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## foe

correct me if i'm wrong since i dont follow regular season MLB, but didn't St. Louis almost not make it to the postseason? Atlanta had an epic collapse or something.

The Cards got in on the wild card?


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## Atticus

It seems bizarrely fated.

Atlanta collapse was about as bad as any ever.

Philadelphia beat Atlanta to allow Stl to make the playoffs. 

Stl beat Phil. in rd 1.

Prince Fielder, whose Brewers were beat in the NLCS by Stl, hit the game winning HR in tha All star game to give the NL the home field in the world series.

Texas' CJ Wilson gave up that HR.

I just like thinking about all this stuff :yes


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## coldsorehighlighter

Verlander won the AL MVP...lame. 
The precedent for pitchers winning, or not winning, the MVP was set in 1999 when Pedro Martinez lost to Ivan Rodriguez. Pedro went 23-4, with a 2.07 ERA, 313 strikeouts to 37 walks...just ridiculous. 
The only reason Verlander won this award was because he went 24-5, instead of simply 20-5 or 21-5...those few extra wins pushed him to a win total that is rarely reached.


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