# How is this possible?



## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

What exactly is needed in order to maintain muscular mass and strength? A few weeks ago I started a diet/partial fast and I have lost about 10-15 pounds. Before I had lost any weight I could do 10 consecutive dead-hang pullups. Now, after having lost 10-15 pounds I can still only do 10 consecutive dead-hang pullups. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that I have not only lost fat, but also muscle. How is this possible?

I have been getting the following essential nutrients daily:

*Minerals*
Magnesium
Potassium
Phosphorus
Calcium
Iron
Zinc
Copper
Manganese
Selenium
Molybdenum
Chromium

*Vitamins*
Vitamin C
Vitamin A
Vitamin D
Vitamin E
Vitamin K
Thiamin
Riboflavin
Niacin
Vitamin B6
Folate 
Vitamin B12
Pantothenic Acid

*Protein/amino acids*
Tryptophan
Threonine
Isoleucine 
Leucine 
Lysine 
Methionine 
Cystine 
Phenylalanine 
Tyrosine 
Valine 
Arginine 
Histidine 
Alanine 
Aspartic acid 
Glutamic acid 
Glycine
Proline 
Serine

*Essential fatty acids*
Omega-3
Omega-6 (just as much as omega-3 or less)

Carbohydrates


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## Wellington (Dec 29, 2007)

One helpful supplement is L-Carnosine. It helps increase muscle vitality.


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

Wellington said:


> One helpful supplement is L-Carnosine. It helps increase muscle vitality.


Go here:

http://vitamins.ultimatefatburner.com/c ... eview.html

It states that L-Carnosine is made up of two amino acids: alanine and histadine. I am already getting those amino acids daily.


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## Wellington (Dec 29, 2007)

I realized it was made up of those two amino acids, but didn't read your whole entire list thoroughly. Taking those two amino acids seperately doesn't necessarily mean they convert to carnosine 100% . I think more studies have to be done before one can say for sure, but the following link sheds some light on the issue.

I found an interesting discussion regarding taking beta alanine + histidine or carnosine alone. http://www.avantlabs.com/forum/lofivers ... 20101.html

"The naturally occurring dipeptide carnosine (beta-alanyl-L-histidine) has been found to exert an anti-senescence effect when used as a dietary supplement. Carnosine clearly improved the external appearance of experimental animals and provided beneficial physiological effects, thus maintaining the animals in better condition than control animals receiving no carnosine or a mixture of beta-alanine and L-histidine."


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

areagan said:


> What exactly is needed in order to maintain muscular mass and strength? A few weeks ago I started a diet/partial fast and I have lost about 10-15 pounds. Before I had lost any weight I could do 10 consecutive dead-hang pullups. Now, after having lost 10-15 pounds I can still only do 10 consecutive dead-hang pullups. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that I have not only lost fat, but also muscle. How is this possible?
> 
> I have been getting the following essential nutrients daily:
> 
> ...


to maintain or build muscle you need to consume at least 1g of protein per pound of body weight dailly. e.g if you weigh 10 stone (140lb) then you need to consume at least 140g of protein every single day. 
also you from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed you should never go more than hours without consuming protein. this is easily achieved by having 3 normal meals that contain whole foods such as tuna, chicken, egss etc... and 3 other meals that are supllemented with whey protein shakes.


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

you should have continued your work outs to preserve the muscle mass but do not worry. The body has its muscle memory you will gain your strength in short time. But don't forget body also has its fat memory so keep your protein intake high get some creatine and eat healthy.


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

julie cooper said:


> areagan said:
> 
> 
> > What exactly is needed in order to maintain muscular mass and strength? A few weeks ago I started a diet/partial fast and I have lost about 10-15 pounds. Before I had lost any weight I could do 10 consecutive dead-hang pullups. Now, after having lost 10-15 pounds I can still only do 10 consecutive dead-hang pullups. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that I have not only lost fat, but also muscle. How is this possible?
> ...


At the moment I weigh about 145 and I get 150g of protein per day. I also eat 6 times per day and I leave only an hour and 45min in between each meal. Therefore, I am getting plenty of protein and I am getting it often throughout the day.


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

proximo20 said:


> you should have continued your work outs to preserve the muscle mass but do not worry. The body has its muscle memory you will gain your strength in short time. But don't forget body also has its fat memory so keep your protein intake high get some creatine and eat healthy.


I have been continuing my workouts. I have been working out the entire time. I do get plenty of protein and I eat very healthy. I do not take creatine because that is bad--it's cheating and I do not like to cheat.


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

areagan said:


> proximo20 said:
> 
> 
> > you should have continued your work outs to preserve the muscle mass but do not worry. The body has its muscle memory you will gain your strength in short time. But don't forget body also has its fat memory so keep your protein intake high get some creatine and eat healthy.
> ...


So maybe you are overtraining. Get also some rest. You may want to also reduce the reps 6-8 to gain muscle. More reps can also burn your muscles. Also do some leg exercises.

About creatine it is not cheating it is just like taking whey protein. You can't get enough creatine by eating just meat. It is not steroid.

It can be about the fast you did. Have you been hungry. No you say you get lots of protein.

I don't know you should have increased the reps at least a few more. It does not make sense to me either. :con

I just thouht that it might be about cardio. I don't remember your age but for example I try to keep my pulse at 135. High intensity cardio causes fat and muscle loss.


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

proximo20 said:


> areagan said:
> 
> 
> > proximo20 said:
> ...


I am not over training. I do upper body workouts every tuesday, thursday and saturday. I do lower body workouts every monday, wednesday and friday. I have been doing upper body workouts for over a year now, and I added in lower body workouts over a month ago.

Also, creatine is made out of arginine, glycine and methionine. I already am getting those amino acids.

Go here: http://www.enotes.com/drugs-substances- ... /what-made


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

Well I just wrote that it can be also because of the cardio intensity. Keep your pulse at 135.

besides three days leg. I think one day would be enough. Maybe your legs take all your nutrients and energy to recover. 

There are many types of creatine. The most popular one is Creatine monohydrate. There are many websites about it. I think the word comes from a greek word Krea which means meat. 

So it is found mainly in meat. 

But be careful. You should learn how to you use it, cycle it, dose it. For people with kidney problems it is not recommended just like too much protein. Also carnosine is really helpful and maybe a healthier choice.


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

> Also, creatine is made out of arginine, glycine and methionine. I already am getting those amino acids.
> 
> Go here: http://www.enotes.com/drugs-substances- ... /what-made


I know what is it made of but just because they wrote it on your whey it does not mean that you are getting it on right amounts or combining properly.

Besides that you may want to check your testosterone levels. I don't see how you cant gain strength if you are working out doing leg, eat healthy with much protein.

Maybe it is hormonal.


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

proximo20 said:


> > Also, creatine is made out of arginine, glycine and methionine. I already am getting those amino acids.
> >
> > Go here: http://www.enotes.com/drugs-substances- ... /what-made
> 
> ...


I do not get the amino acids from whey protein; I do not take whey protein at all. I get all of my protein from 1.) Small white beans and 2.) Meat extender; I get it from *real food sources*.

Also, I can gain strength when it comes to working out my legs because whenever I do calf raises I always do as many reps as possible until I fail to do another rep. However, the very next time I do calf raises I always do 10 more reps than I did previously. It is just my upper body that, for some reason, cannot gain strength.


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

> My diet consists of TVP (textured vegetable protein), flaxseed, small white beans, frozen asparagus and oranges--that is all I eat. I am also taking two supplements called Focus Smart and Bone Up, and the only thing I drink is water. I believe that as long as I stay on this diet for one entire month I will be cured. However, I plan on staying on this diet for the rest of my life.


wait a second, you don't eat meat and get some stuff with phytoestrogen and you wonder how you could not increase your reps?

Dude, just because they write zinc or arginine etc. on a protein shake it does not mean that you are absorbing it in the right form and at the proper level.

I am not against vegetarianism but I would not wonder how I could not increase my stregth.


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

> I do not get the amino acids from whey protein; I do not take whey protein at all. I get all of my protein from 1.) Small white beans and 2.) Meat extender; I get it from *real food sources*.
> 
> Also, I can gain strength when it comes to working out my legs because whenever I do calf raises I always do as many reps as possible until I fail to do another rep. However, the very next time I do calf raises I always do 10 more reps than I did previously. It is just my upper body that, for some reason, cannot gain strength.


I never knew anyone that increases his calf raises so much in a day. As I said it is probably your body uses all the nutrients for your legs and your upper body does not get much for recovery.

And you have this problem after one year when you started doing legs right?

You can forget what I wrote in the previous post. I think this is the cause.


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

proximo20 said:


> > I do not get the amino acids from whey protein; I do not take whey protein at all. I get all of my protein from 1.) Small white beans and 2.) Meat extender; I get it from *real food sources*.
> >
> > Also, I can gain strength when it comes to working out my legs because whenever I do calf raises I always do as many reps as possible until I fail to do another rep. However, the very next time I do calf raises I always do 10 more reps than I did previously. It is just my upper body that, for some reason, cannot gain strength.
> 
> ...


Even before I started doing leg exercises at all I could not improve my upper body strength.

Therefore, working out my legs is not the cause.


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

areagan said:


> julie cooper said:
> 
> 
> > areagan said:
> ...


well i dont know what the problem is then but what i will say is that leaving only 1 hour 45 mins between meals is not good. the least amount of time between meals is 2 hours and the max is 3 hours


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

I eat 6 times a day though so I have to space each meal out about an hour and 45min. Otherwise, I would be eating my last meal too close to the time I go to bed.


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

areagan said:


> proximo20 said:
> 
> 
> > you should have continued your work outs to preserve the muscle mass but do not worry. The body has its muscle memory you will gain your strength in short time. But don't forget body also has its fat memory so keep your protein intake high get some creatine and eat healthy.
> ...


ideal workout time is 45 mins. you should never workout more than 1 hour. muscles need to rest which means working out only 3 times per week with weights and leaving 3 - 4 days in between working the same muscle groups.

i dont know if thats your problem but thats all i can think of. also you need to increase the weights you are lifting every week. no increase no muscle gains. change your exercises every 4 weeks cos no change no muscle gains. also make sure the weights u are lifting are so heavy that the last rep is impossible.

as for the creatine thing why on earth do you think taking creatine is cheating ? its not. your body naturally produces its own creatine but just not enough of it. all you are doing is giving your body enough creatine. its a natural subsatnce. is taking whey protein cheating ? no so why is taking creatine cheating ?

steroids is cheating but creatine isnt

is someone cheating when they take cla for fat loss ? no so why is someone taking creatine for muscle size chaeting ?


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

areagan said:


> I eat 6 times a day though so I have to space each meal out about an hour and 45min. Otherwise, I would be eating my last meal too close to the time I go to bed.


eating before bed is perfect. you are required to eat right before bed if you want muscle gains. infact , apart from post workout meal, its the most important meal in regards to muscle gains. when you sleep your body breaks down muscle tissue. if you have carbs and protein before bed then this will preserve the muscles whilst you sleep

casein protein is better than whey before better cos it releases a lot slower whcih is ideal seens as you are aslepp for hours. casein can be found in cottage cheese. the perfect meal before bed is cottage cheese (protein) and fruit (carbs)


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

julie cooper said:


> areagan said:
> 
> 
> > proximo20 said:
> ...


Why wouldn't increasing reps provide strength gains? Also, why would not changing the exercise lead to no strength gains? I do the same exercises for my legs every time and I have had strength gains. Every time I do calf raises I always do as many reps as possible before I cannot do another rep. The very next time I do calf raises, I always do 10 more reps than I did previously. Therefore, strength can be gained from not increasing weight but by increasing reps alone, and it can also be gained by doing the same old exercise over and over again.


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

proximo20 said:


> you should have continued your work outs to preserve the muscle mass but do not worry. The body has its muscle memory you will gain your strength in short time. But don't forget body also has its fat memory so keep your protein intake high get some creatine and eat healthy.


I have been continuing my workouts. I have been working out the entire time. I do get plenty of protein and I eat very healthy. I do not take creatine because that is bad--it's cheating and I do not like to cheat.[/quote]

So maybe you are overtraining. Get also some rest. You may want to also reduce the reps 6-8 to gain muscle. More reps can also burn your muscles. Also do some leg exercises.

About creatine it is not cheating it is just like taking whey protein. You can't get enough creatine by eating just meat. It is not steroid.

It can be about the fast you did. Have you been hungry. No you say you get lots of protein.

I don't know you should have increased the reps at least a few more. It does not make sense to me either. :con[/quote]

I am not over training. I do upper body workouts every tuesday, thursday and saturday. I do lower body workouts every monday, wednesday and friday. I have been doing upper body workouts for over a year now, and I added in lower body workouts over a month ago.

Also, creatine is made out of arginine, glycine and methionine. I already am getting those amino acids.

Go here: http://www.enotes.com/drugs-substances- ... /what-made[/quote]

newsflash - YOU ARE OVERTRAINING.

the maximum amount of weight training workouts for 1 week is 4 and you are doing six. sometimes i think even 4 is too many. 3 per weeks is perfect.

also you are only leaving 1 days rest in between workouts for the same muscle groups. you need 3-4 days rest for muscle groups. when you workout you tear the muscles. then when you rest and feed them protein they grow back bigger and stronger. if you tear them and dont give them much rest before tearing them agian with another workout then how are they supposed to grow. you need to give them time to repair, they grow when you rest.


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

julie cooper said:


> newsflash - YOU ARE OVERTRAINING.
> 
> the maximum amount of weight training workouts for 1 week is 4 and you are doing six. sometimes i think even 4 is too many. 3 per weeks is perfect.
> 
> also you are only leaving 1 days rest in between workouts for the same muscle groups. you need 3-4 days rest for muscle groups. when you workout you tear the muscles. then when you rest and feed them protein they grow back bigger and stronger. if you tear them and dont give them much rest before tearing them agian with another workout then how are they supposed to grow. you need to give them time to repair, they grow when you rest.


I am not overtraining because every time I do calf raises I always do as many reps as possible before I cannot do another rep. The very next time I do calf raises again, which is exactly 2 days later, I always do 10 more reps than I did previously. Therefore, my muscles are getting plenty of time to repair and strength is being gained in my legs.


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

[q


proximo20 said:


> you should have continued your work outs to preserve the muscle mass but do not worry. The body has its muscle memory you will gain your strength in short time. But don't forget body also has its fat memory so keep your protein intake high get some creatine and eat healthy.


I have been continuing my workouts. I have been working out the entire time. I do get plenty of protein and I eat very healthy. I do not take creatine because that is bad--it's cheating and I do not like to cheat.[/quote]

ideal workout time is 45 mins. you should never workout more than 1 hour. muscles need to rest which means working out only 3 times per week with weights and leaving 3 - 4 days in between working the same muscle groups.

i dont know if thats your problem but thats all i can think of. also you need to increase the weights you are lifting every week. no increase no muscle gains. change your exercises every 4 weeks cos no change no muscle gains. also make sure the weights u are lifting are so heavy that the last rep is impossible.

as for the creatine thing why on earth do you think taking creatine is cheating ? its not. your body naturally produces its own creatine but just not enough of it. all you are doing is giving your body enough creatine. its a natural subsatnce. is taking whey protein cheating ? no so why is taking creatine cheating ?

steroids is cheating but creatine isnt

is someone cheating when they take cla for fat loss ? no so why is someone taking creatine for muscle size chaeting ?[/quote]

Why wouldn't increasing reps provide strength gains? Also, why would not changing the exercise lead to no strength gains? I do the same exercises for my legs every time and I have had strength gains. Every time I do calf raises I always do as many reps as possible before I cannot do another rep. The very next time I do calf raises, I always do 10 more reps than I did previously. Therefore, strength can be gained from not increasing weight but by increasing reps alone, and it can also be gained by doing the same old exercise over and over again.[/quote]

you are wrong. here is how rep range works:

1-4 reps - power. this is great for explosive power

6-8 reps - strengh

8-12 reps muscle growth

12-20 reps - tone

if you are aiming for muscle growth then you should never do more than 12 reps. do 12 reps with a weight that makes it impossibel to do a 13th rep. when u can do 13 reps simply increase the weight. extra reps does not increase muscle gains or strengh.

if you do the same exercise over and over again your body gets used to it and it hinders results. if you switch things up you avoid a platoau. also if you do flys and bench press for your chest you are not hitting all of the muscles in your chest. incline flys and incline bench press hit different parts of the chest. if you do the same exercises you are only targetting a certain area of that muscle group


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

areagan said:


> julie cooper said:
> 
> 
> > newsflash - YOU ARE OVERTRAINING.
> ...


what you have just said makes no sense what so ever, seriously

once you have worked your calves who have tore them and you need to rest them for 3-4 days so that they can repair the tairs. you are working them again 2 days later which is too soon. you are working them again whilst they are still toren and whilst they havent even grown.

if you let them repair themselves they will grow and then you train them again. but it takes 3-4 days for them to repair and grow


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## areagan (Jul 8, 2008)

julie cooper said:


> areagan said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="julie cooper":17e70oao]newsflash - YOU ARE OVERTRAINING.
> ...


what you have just said makes no sense what so ever, seriously

once you have worked your calves who have tore them and you need to rest them for 3-4 days so that they can repair the tairs. you are working them again 2 days later which is too soon. you are working them again whilst they are still toren and whilst they havent even grown.

if you let them repair themselves they will grow and then you train them again. but it takes 3-4 days for them to repair and grow[/quote:17e70oao]

All I am saying is that my legs are getting stronger because I am doing more reps each time I work them out.


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

[quocooper"]newsflash - YOU ARE OVERTRAINING.

the maximum amount of weight training workouts for 1 week is 4 and you are doing six. sometimes i think even 4 is too many. 3 per weeks is perfect.

also you are only leaving 1 days rest in between workouts for the same muscle groups. you need 3-4 days rest for muscle groups. when you workout you tear the muscles. then when you rest and feed them protein they grow back bigger and stronger. if you tear them and dont give them much rest before tearing them agian with another workout then how are they supposed to grow. you need to give them time to repair, they grow when you rest.[/quote]

I am not overtraining because every time I do calf raises I always do as many reps as possible before I cannot do another rep. The very next time I do calf raises again, which is exactly 2 days later, I always do 10 more reps than I did previously. Therefore, my muscles are getting plenty of time to repair and strength is being gained in my legs.[/quote]

what you have just said makes no sense what so ever, seriously

once you have worked your calves who have tore them and you need to rest them for 3-4 days so that they can repair the tairs. you are working them again 2 days later which is too soon. you are working them again whilst they are still toren and whilst they havent even grown.

if you let them repair themselves they will grow and then you train them again. but it takes 3-4 days for them to repair and grow[/quote]

All I am saying is that my legs are getting stronger because I am doing more reps each time I work them out.[/quote]

well ive sed my piece . im off to bed now


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

a loss of weight is going to cause a loss of strength and muscle mass


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

nubly said:


> a loss of weight is going to cause a loss of strength and muscle mass


that is simply not true. you can gain muscle mass and lose body fat a the same time. just becasue youve lost weight doesnt mean its muscle that uve lost. also saying that u lose strengh when u lose weight is wrong too. in the past i remeber i lost 24 lb by following the bodyf or life training system. in that time my stengh almost doubled. i started the programme benching 25kg and by the time i finished it i could nech 50kg


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

julie cooper said:


> nubly said:
> 
> 
> > a loss of weight is going to cause a loss of strength and muscle mass
> ...


that only works for beginners


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## julie cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

nubly said:


> julie cooper said:
> 
> 
> > nubly said:
> ...


what does ?


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

Other than whats floating around in your blood your body's only supply of protein is your muscles. In addition to being a potential energy source and being used to build muscle protein is needed for many functions within the body. If you don't eat enough protein the body will signal your muscles to break themselves down and release protein into the blood stream.


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