# Today, I talked to a girl



## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Ok, so some of you may be thinking "Big deal, it's just a girl." I haven't talked to a girl in class (and by talked, I mean more than just a few words) in 4 or 5 years. I'm a guy in case you haven't realized.

I actually had a biology lab with her, and even though we weren't in a group together (although some weeks we were), we had a little fun talking about various things. Although I hardly have any confidence, I do have confidence in my humor, so I went at it in full stride, and was able to make her laugh several times.

Our biology lecture was right after the lab, and I was hoping I would get to walk with her to the class, but I couldn't because she left too quickly. Luckily, when I went to the lecture, she was sitting by herself with nobody else around, so I thought why the hell not, made eye contact with her and sat next to her. We exchanged some more words during class (something I'm totally not used to), but what really bummed me out was that she left a few minutes before class ended without saying bye to me. I was hoping to walk with her after class, but that idea failed twice. Oh well.

She was decent looking in my opinion, but I do have low standards when it comes to looks. I wanted to get her number, but I was worried that if I tried to do that, it may look like I'm desperate or something. I guess this is where my anxiety kicked in a little. I may actually try to pursue her, but I'm so worried that I'm going to find out that she's taken, although I haven't heard her saying anything about having a boyfriend. I just hope she doesn't think I'm one of those guys that uses women for sex, because that's not what I want. I just hope she doesn't find me as irritating when I sit next to her again during the next lecture, because she seems to always sit by herself.


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## delirium (Jun 24, 2009)

That is boss man. You are boss.


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## theuprising (Oct 2, 2009)

JMX said:


> Ok, so some of you may be thinking "Big deal, it's just a girl." I haven't talked to a girl in class (and by talked, I mean more than just a few words) in 4 or 5 years. I'm a guy in case you haven't realized.
> 
> I actually had a biology lab with her, and even though we weren't in a group together (although some weeks we were), we had a little fun talking about various things. Although I hardly have any confidence, I do have confidence in my humor, so I went at it in full stride, and was able to make her laugh several times.
> 
> ...


It depends on the girl but, if you want her number, make sure you're getting it for the reason of dating her. Don't get it and then call her every once in a while to meet up and do some biology. Though again this all depends on the girl, your chances are much better if you ask fast, otherwise she will think you are scared (which you are  ).

Also, this is important, make it seem like its her idea to give her number, like if you want to study. What you would normally do is say "hmm if there was a way we could continue this conversation" but since you see her in class, she'll say, "see you thursday!"

To not be desperate, don't escalate the relationship when you think you've made a funny joke and you feel good about yourself, you should escelate when she puts effort into the conversation and thus your interest is justified, you rewarded her for showing effort.

More details in the book "how to meet and connect with women" by wayne elise. Torrent it


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## shadowmask (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey, that actually is a big deal, man. Starting a conversation with the opposite sex can be very anxiety inducing, I know. Way to go.  Even if things don't go through with her, you should keep putting yourself out there as often as possible.


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

I appreciate the feedback. Normally I get nervous when I talk with a girl, but maybe that's the past now, because I felt fairly comfortable talking to her, though some disappointment at the end when she left abruptly.



theuprising said:


> It depends on the girl but, if you want her number, make sure you're getting it for the reason of dating her. Don't get it and then call her every once in a while to meet up and do some biology. Though again this all depends on the girl, your chances are much better if you ask fast, otherwise she will think you are scared (which you are  ).


To be honest, I'm not 100% sure if I want to date her. As one of my female co-workers said in the past: "Men don't know what they want." Before she said this, she said she wasn't going to say it because I'm around and it's sexist, but I told her to say it anyway, because I thought it would benefit me. I think there's a fair amount of credibility in this statement because she's 29 years old (my co-worker, that is). I did have a girl in the past who was interested in me, and started to mingle with me by first studying together (even though we didn't take any similar classes). It sort of escalated from there, although she was doing nearly all the escalating.



theuprising said:


> Also, this is important, make it seem like its her idea to give her number, like if you want to study. What you would normally do is say "hmm if there was a way we could continue this conversation" but since you see her in class, she'll say, "see you thursday!"


I don't quite understand what you mean here. I think what you're trying to say is because I see her in class twice a week, plus during the lab, you would think getting her phone number is unnecessary, but really it is?



theuprising said:


> To not be desperate, don't escalate the relationship when you think you've made a funny joke and you feel good about yourself, you should escelate when she puts effort into the conversation and thus your interest is justified, you rewarded her for showing effort.


I think I saw some of this in our conversations. I would crack a joke, and she would respond. It wasn't a one-way conversation, although during the lecture it sort of was. She did start a short conversation during the lecture though.

I tried to get a bit personal with her though. I can't remember exactly what we were talking about, but she mentions her summer job, in which I think it's a given to ask her what she did. I should've asked her where she's from, what's her major, etc. but I didn't want to get too annoying in her face. Do women like that though? Do they like to have people ask various things about their life? Obviously there are quite a few things I don't know about women, but I need to start somewhere. I feel that if I asked her various things about herself, I could've actually had a full conversation with her during class, although maybe not necessarily a good idea because I am trying to get a college education.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

Congrats, as someone who also has the same affliction, I know the difficulty that this must have caused you. Although I can't say I'm that experienced in the matter, if I were you I would lay off for a lecture or two. If you try and sit next to her constantly, at least in the beginning, this can be perceived as being way to clingy. This is what I would do anyway, I'm no expert , so use this advice with a bit of caution and what not. :b


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Paper Samurai said:


> Congrats, as someone who also has the same affliction, I know the difficulty that this must have caused you. Although I can't say I'm that experienced in the matter, if I were you I would lay off for a lecture or two. If you try and sit next to her constantly, at least in the beginning, this can be perceived as being way to clingy. This is what I would do anyway, I'm no expert , so use this advice with a bit of caution and what not. :b


I've started something, so I certainly don't want to give up my efforts. Maybe I'm over-analyzing this a little, but whatever. I don't know if backing off a lecture or two is a great idea, because it's a lecture that only meets twice a week, and next week's first lecture is canceled because we're on a Fall break. The lecture meets on Tuesdays and Thursdays, with the lab being on Thursday, and Tuesday's lecture is canceled. Plus, we're almost half way through the semester so I don't have all the time in the world.

Besides, don't at least some relationships start from studying partners or classmates?


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

JMX said:


> I've started something, so I certainly don't want to give up my efforts. Maybe I'm over-analyzing this a little, but whatever. I don't know if backing off a lecture or two is a great idea, because it's a lecture that only meets twice a week, and next week's first lecture is canceled because we're on a Fall break. The lecture meets on Tuesdays and Thursdays, with the lab being on Thursday, and Tuesday's lecture is canceled. Plus, we're almost half way through the semester so I don't have all the time in the world.
> 
> Besides, don't at least some relationships start from studying partners or classmates?


Ah ok, I was assuming you were having said lecture everyday - probably best to ignore my advice then. But even if this wasn't the case, I would not take this as concrete anyway lol. I think I've just been negatively influenced by my own past failings in this area to be honest. :b


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Paper Samurai said:


> Ah ok, I was assuming you were having said lecture everyday - probably best to ignore my advice then. But even if this wasn't the case, I would not take this as concrete anyway lol. I think I've just been negatively influenced by my own past failings in this area to be honest. :b


Don't worry about it, all comments and suggestions are very much welcome. I'm just happy that you even contributed to my thread.

P.S. I love songs by May'n (in reference to your sig)


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## Frogbox (Oct 10, 2009)

I would definitely say you're over analyzing this, but it's impossible not to, right? Just don't let too much ride on it. Just think if this 1 doesn't work out, then there's a million more to go for. And it can actually be a great thing to get rejected because you'll learn something extremely valuable - what not to do the next time. And if it's getting rejected by a girl you're not crazy about then it's just good practice. So either way, it's win win. Obviously getting the girl is way better than learning a lesson, but in the end you've always got your hand and your johnson.



theuprising said:


> To not be desperate, don't escalate the relationship when you think you've made a funny joke and you feel good about yourself, you should escelate when she puts effort into the conversation and thus your interest is justified, you rewarded her for showing effort.
> 
> More details in the book "how to meet and connect with women" by wayne elise. Torrent it


Great advice.


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## theuprising (Oct 2, 2009)

JMX said:


> I don't quite understand what you mean here. I think what you're trying to say is because I see her in class twice a week, plus during the lab, you would think getting her phone number is unnecessary, but really it is?


Not exactly, its kindof a form of manipulation, however subtle. When you want someone to do something, you try and make it seem like it was their idea, and thus in a normal situation when you are trying to get the girls number, you say when leaving "Hmm I wonder if there's a way we could continue this conversation" which will naturally prompt the girl into saying "hey i'll give you my number".

I said the exact line probably won't work for your girl, since you see her regularly, but you get the idea.


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

theuprising said:


> Not exactly, its kindof a form of manipulation, however subtle. When you want someone to do something, you try and make it seem like it was their idea, and thus in a normal situation when you are trying to get the girls number, you say when leaving "Hmm I wonder if there's a way we could continue this conversation" which will naturally prompt the girl into saying "hey i'll give you my number".
> 
> I said the exact line probably won't work for your girl, since you see her regularly, but you get the idea.


Ah, now I see what you're saying. That might be tough for me, but I just thought of another idea.

Next lecture, maybe I'll try to steer one of our conversations towards movies. We'll talk about recent movies, and maybe we'll end up finding out that there's a movie we both want to see. I don't want to really make this an official date, but at least this way I'll get her number (and she'll get mine), and we'll spend time outside of class. I can't do this during the lab because there will be people around us, and it'll be awkward.

This is going to be completely out of my comfort zone, but whatever, I need to give action to get action.


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## saillias (Oct 5, 2008)

Good job... I really need to do this more often myself. By the way, it's kinda funny how every post in this topic is by males.


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## ChrisWasNotThere (Oct 12, 2009)

Haha nice ! I haven't talked to a girl in ages, it would just be embrassing and awkward for me ):


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## Gen Eric (Oct 14, 2009)

Congrats man, I know it always feels weird writing something like that, as we're so convinced that such a task should be effortless, when in reality it definitely isn't.

I noticed that you mentioned that she left class quickly twice and that she was sitting with no one around in lecture. Is it possible that she might have SAD as well? 

It's likely as college students seem to be more susceptible, judging from the numbers of college students ive seen on this site. Plus girls are 3x more likely to have it as guys. Next time you talk to her try to notice if she does some of the stuff the rest of us do.


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Gen Eric said:


> I noticed that you mentioned that she left class quickly twice and that she was sitting with no one around in lecture. Is it possible that she might have SAD as well?


I don't think this is the case, but I will pay attention to see for sure. The reason why I say this is because of this very small thing I noticed that turned out to be pretty big:

The lecture hall is divided into halves, with a main aisle in the middle. I entered the hall through the back, and she was sitting one seat to the inside on the left half of the hall. She had her wet umbrella set on the chair to her left. I entered her row, and she began to move her umbrella, expecting me to sit there. I didn't sit there because the seat is obviously wet, and I wanted to give her some room because the lecture hall is very empty towards the back, which is where we were. I just dropped my umbrella on the same seat and started talking.

However, I'll be seeing her tomorrow in lecture (and in lab, as well, which is before the lecture) I want to sit in the seat directly next to her this time, but I think I should say something before I do, because I sat a seat apart from her last week. I'm thinking of saying something along the lines of "You don't mind, do you?" before I take a seat right next to her. I think us SAers pay attention to every minor detail that it could benefit us or hurt us.


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## Gen Eric (Oct 14, 2009)

I do sincerely hope you get this before you go to class tomorrow.

*Do not ask her if she minds.* I know that this seems to be the polite and courteous thing to do, and in many ways it is, but this isn't 1925 lol. I know it seems unintuitive but that's because you have a mind distorted by SAD.

What your doing is your asking her permission to sit there, which stems from the logic that you believe you don't have the right to sit there, which stems from the logic that you are undeserving on that seat. You are completely deserving of that seat. Its a free country, you can sit wherever the h*** you like.

She has already given you permission to sit there by 1)talking to you and b)moving her umbrella. I know this seems forward, but look where you're lack of forwardness has gotten you. That kind of thing does not operate on an admit one, for a limited time only basis. She is interested, take whats yours. That confident self that's living inside you wants you to do it, and that's what he would do.

I've struggled with the 'should I sit there decision' my share of times, and at some point I had what addicts refer to as a moment of clarity, where I realized that after talking to someone for X minutes on X occasions, I definitely do have the right to sit there, in fact, it would be a little weird if I blew this person of with no explanation.

Believe me, even the simple fact that you would consider being as chivalrous as to ask her that question puts you miles ahead of the competition.

That being said, if you do end up doing that, don't sweat it, because the advice I've just provided is for you and your state of mind, and likely won't have any bearing on the situation whatsoever, _so long as you end up sitting next to her._..


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Ah, I appreciate the advice.

So in a nutshell, I should take a much more aggressive approach to this, correct? This makes sense, because I basically already have her "permission" to interact with her, so I should take full charge. If I overthink this I'll probably mess it up, but I will try to be more aggressive than passive.


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## RedWolf (Oct 14, 2009)

I find getting a girl number to be quite easy, in fact it only probably take me three line in doing so.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Good job man! You're putting yourself out there. I wish I had half the courage you have.


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## Gen Eric (Oct 14, 2009)

There you go man, that's the spirit! And wouldn't say aggressive, as that incites too many not so fond memories of womanizing d-bags that ruin it for the rest of us. No, a better word is assertive. And yeah, SA makes us prone to overthinking thing, so as a rule of thumb, if she doesn't run away screaming, consider her interested. Don't concentrate on her body language or tone of voice, because the only thing your doin is distracting yourself from what's important, the conversation. Try to concentrate as much as you can on what's being said, and stay in the moment. Enjoy it and don't worry about the next thing to say either. Remember, she's a person, just like you, with hopes and fears and hangups.

Anyway, I hope it goes well for you, I'm on my way to class myself, and I hope it goes as well for me as I know it will for you. Keep me posted.

In the words of Delirium, you are boss!


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

(If you don't want to read this whole post, just skip to the last two paragraphs, where most of the important stuff is)

Well, today was a rather average day.

It started off well, since I was sitting in the lab waiting for the lab to start, and she walks in and waves "hi" to me, but that's mainly because I was gazing at the TV screen, which normally isn't there. I guess that's a plus, because there was a guy sitting right next to her, but she decided to say hi to me first....or maybe I'm just over-thinking things again. We made small conversations again, and I once again tried to crack some jokes here and there, and she seemed to like it. We got done early, but once again, she left without waiting for me, even though I was ready to go in about 30 seconds. 

I walked out of the building soon after, and I saw her about to cross the street, about 10 yards away from me. I thought about running up to her and cross the street with her, since we're headed to the same place, but I think that was just too much for her. I think I need to give her some space, and not look like a stalker.

I saw her go down the hallway opposite the lecture hall (lecture wasn't going to start for another hour), so I knew she was going to come back eventually through the main lobby. I decided to sit down in the lobby and start studying, so that when she walks back towards the lecture hall, she'll notice me. Unfortunately, she didn't!...and she walked only a few yards in front of me. There are some seats next to the lecture hall, so I was thinking she probably went to sit down over there. I decided to get up, walk in that direction, and see if she would notice me as I walk past her. She didn't! I sat down in a seat about 15 yards away, but a vending machine obstructed the view between us.

I decided to study for a little bit, but then thought about maybe growing some balls by getting up and sitting next to her. I couldn't believe I spent about 5 or 10 minutes thinking about this, but the longer I thought about it, the worse the anxiety became. Then I said f*** it, got up and walked over to her place. She noticed me, and quickly moved her stuff towards her so I can sit down. Thank goodness I got over that hurdle.

We talked mostly about the class, the lab, etc. I was flipping through the lab manual and she noticed a diagram of a human arm. She said "Wait! Turn back the page!" and she flips through the pages until she found the arm again. I said "arteries" because that word came up a few times on that page. She says "Are they going to take blood or something? I can't stand doing that!" So I decided to joke around and say "Hmm....'insert needle into arm gently until....'" and she says "Oh my god no!!" and I said "Haha just kidding!" She wasn't made or anything, so I think that turned out well.

We went into the lecture hall when it was time, and because of what happened before lecture, I had no problem sitting directly next to her. I actually felt rather comfortable. The downside was that we didn't talk much. She kept sighing because she didn't understand what was going on in class, so I told her "Brighten up!" As it turned out, she left class early last time because her next class was a long walk, which is what she did today as well.

I think I've made a little progress today, but the thing that's been bothering me is the fact that she probably doesn't know my name. I'm pretty sure I know her name, but I'm not 100% sure. I have a feeling it's going to get more and more awkward for her to ask me what my name is because we talked quite a bit now. Maybe I'll call her out on it sometime by saying something like "You don't even know my name!" if she tries to assume something about me. I don't know. Bottom line is, I have no clue how this will even turn out to be a relationship when I don't know half the things I'm doing and I'm just making small talk with her.

Ugh, I like her because I think she's cute, and she has a playful personality. She kinda jokes around sometimes like me, and she doesn't really get angry.


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## Gen Eric (Oct 14, 2009)

Well man congrats, your doing everything right. By the sounds of it she is definitely interested in you. She is showing all the signs.

So this is what I want you to do tonight... I want you to _rest easy_, and *be proud of yourself*. Sure, you spent ten minutes thinking about whether or not to sit next to her, _but you did_. Sure, you didn't talk much in lecture, _but no ones does_, at least if they want to learn anything. You had a *GREAT* interaction with the blood-drawing thing, reading it brought a smile to my face. You made her laugh and feel good, and that means you couldn't have done things any better. So, _be proud of yourself_, and think about it. Not to analyze it, but to savor the feeling.

So what's next? I'd say just play it by feel, make an effort to spend as much time as you can with her in class. Don't get jumpy and do anything drastic like ask her out for a date or anything. Just _stay in the moment_ and get to know her. Remember to pay attention to her, and not you, and that should keep you grounded. When the time is right to ask her out, you'll know. You will probably second guess it, but don't hesitate. Go with your gut, and ignore the incessant chatter. When you do decide to ask her out, don't put to much pressure on it. Just coffee or lunch or something. I'm a big fan of 'I'm heading for coffee/lunch, you want to come?' rather than 'you want to go for coffee/lunch?' I just think the phasing seems a little more casual and puts her less on the spot.

All that aside, you've got till Tuesday to just revel in your own success. I suggest milking it to its fullest extent. I'm talking smiling, giggling quietly to yourself, the whole giddy nine yards.

You Are Boss!:boogie

PS If you find yourself doubting any of what I've said here, or what more advice, I have 3 years of psyc and about $300 of dating material to back it up (lol), which I would happy share with you in full detail. Trust me, i can analyze the crap out of whats happened thus far. Just send me a PM or put it on this thread.


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Gen Eric, I want to sincerely thank you for your feedback. It's very valuable to me because I don't really have any friends who can help me with these kinds of unusual situations.



Gen Eric said:


> By the sounds of it she is definitely interested in you. She is showing all the signs.


I'm not doubting your knowledge one bit, and I'm sure your knowledge about women is far better than mine. However, I don't understand how she's showing any signs of interest. Okay, so maybe she's a little interested because she does start short conversations with me on her own, but she hasn't asked about contacts (facebook, phone number), hanging outside of class, studying outside of class, etc. Like I mentioned earlier, I don't think she even knows my name. But when she does ask, I already planned what I'll say: "I'll give you a hint. It starts with a J, and ends in 'ustin'". I just hope my humor can spark a tiny bit of attraction of her towards me.

Once I can talk with her outside of class, I think it'll be a little easier, as I will have more options to interact with her.


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## Meee (Oct 24, 2005)

Hope things go well for you  Seems like you're on the right track.


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## Gen Eric (Oct 14, 2009)

Hey no problem man, That what i'm here for. I hope I don't psych you out... psychology (?) you out too much with this post. damn colloquialism 

Alright lets tackle this signs problem. I know how it is, with SAD, you tend to block out signs of interest based on the thought that such a thing is impossible. Interestingly enough, this happens on an automatic level. In the process of sorting though the crapload of sensory info you have to deal with on a second to second basis, one of the strategies the brain uses is to refer to the self-concept. you have a huge network of belief about yourself that the brain uses to decide whats pertinent. Therefore, if your self-concept is that you're unattractive (or whatever), the brain with filter out those non-verbal cues that confident people pick up on. It's kind of amazing how this works, in experimenting with different drugs, I've paid close attention to my perception of surroundings. On days that I feel better, I notice that how I see the world is quite different, although subtle. Keep in mind I'm not talking about interpreting, im talking about how it actually looks.

oh yeah, signs

Okay so you guys seem to be chatting quite often now. I think somewhere in there you said that she's started off a few conversations as well. This is undeniable from that she like likes you. I'm not talking high schoool 'zomfg she tooootally likes you', i mean genuinely likes you as a person and thinks your interesting. RARELY, you'll find a semi-masochistic girl who will endure a few conversations with a guy she doesn't like because she wants to be nice. But this martyrdom disappears quickly and rightfully so. She'll tell him to f*** off, even if she does it really nicely. But NO ONE will ever start a conversation with someone they don't want to talk to, it just makes sense. I would be kind of like slashing your own tires.

Furthermore, she's laughing at your jokes. There is sooo much that can be said for this. In various studies conducted regarding traits that women find most attractive, sense of humor is always in the top 2 or 3. Consider this... when have you ever felt negatively when laughing? Never. Two reasons, if you felt truly negative, you wouldn't be laughing, which seems obvious. But it also works the other way around. laughing can lift our spirits even if we are feeling badly. So what you have there is basically a guarantee that if she's laughing, she's feeling good. We tend to be attracted to those that make us feel good. 

as well, memories we form more often than not have an emotional component attached to them, which means that all the new memories shes forming about you, all have a positive, happy emotion attached to them. This means that her entire construct of you has that same emotion attributed to it. 

Ever heard of classical conditioning? look it up, cuz thats goin on too. The more you make her laugh, the more associated you yourself become with that fuzzy, giggling feeling she gets when she laughs.

Trust me, I can think of more, but I think I've proved my point.

Also, the bag/books/umbrella moving thing. That could mean one of two things. Either she wants you to sit where they once were, or she expects you to steal them. Which do you think is more likely.

So the next thing maybe you should do if you want to date this girl, is to touch her. I'm not talking molestation or anything. Just a little nudge with you elbow or something. You know how it is in RomComs, she drops her books, they both reach down, they brush hands and 90 minutes later you're trying to get a refund, or at least a free soda. Thats the kind of touch im talkin about, very powerful thing. Just a little subliminal reminder that your a guy. This should prevent you from getting in the friend zone (oh no! the friend zone!!), which guys like us are susceptible to.

Key thing here is do what your comfortable with. I don't want you driving yourself banana sandwich over this. Be natural about it and when the time feels right.

Also, for my info how many lectures and labs have you been talking to her for?

So you mentioned the whole her not asking for contacts thing. This is a pretty SA resonse. you're just overthinkin things and putting too much pressure on the situation. Don't worry about this, it'll happen eventually. She's just getting to know you. If she doesn't offer sometime soonish, then just ask her, but do it when you feel you know her well enough to have it. Apparently, one of the major things women complain about is all the guys asking for their numbers. It not that they don't like being asked, it's just the rate at which they're asked. A guy will talk to them for 30 seconds and ask them, and they think 'why do you want my number? You don't even know me'. This is really ask complex as the dynamic behind number getting is.

Also, the name thing. Non-issue. Maybe she does know your name. If she doesn't she probably feels kinda bad about that, like she forgot or missed it or something. More than likely at some point there'll be this awkward moment where she laugh nervously and asks 'im really sorry, but what was your name again?' and that'll be that. Or, quick fix, just introduce yourself. (ie I don't think i ever actually introduced myself, im justin). If your worried about this, id say at least 5-10min into conversation is best, once it's warmed up.

as for easier to interact outside of class, thats entirely possible. I know for me id like to use the class time (esp. labs) as effectively as possible, just cuz you're both there for a reason and it kinda more natural to talk while you doing whatever.

Holy crap that's long. sorry I just wrote a social psyc paper last night, kinda haven't switched off yet. If you feel like debating me on whether or not she's interested feel free, I'll hit you with references next time.:yes


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Once again, thank you for posting in-depth analysis on my situation. I've happy that I'm able to see this from multiple angles and see what would work best.



Gen Eric said:


> Okay so you guys seem to be chatting quite often now. I think somewhere in there you said that she's started off a few conversations as well. This is undeniable from that she like likes you. I'm not talking high schoool 'zomfg she tooootally likes you', i mean genuinely likes you as a person and thinks your interesting. RARELY, you'll find a semi-masochistic girl who will endure a few conversations with a guy she doesn't like because she wants to be nice. But this martyrdom disappears quickly and rightfully so. She'll tell him to f*** off, even if she does it really nicely. But NO ONE will ever start a conversation with someone they don't want to talk to, it just makes sense. I would be kind of like slashing your own tires.


I guess this makes sense. I just keep repeatedly thinking inside my head that she's only responding because she thinks she's a jerk if she doesn't. But if she doesn't like, she'll eventually say something. I guess I keep worrying about my own image.



Gen Eric said:


> Ever heard of classical conditioning? look it up, cuz thats goin on too. The more you make her laugh, the more associated you yourself become with that fuzzy, giggling feeling she gets when she laughs.


As a matter of fact, I have, although I did poorly in psychology class. I will try to pound more humor into her next time I see her.



Gen Eric said:


> Also, the bag/books/umbrella moving thing. That could mean one of two things. Either she wants you to sit where they once were, or she expects you to steal them. Which do you think is more likely.


This, I'm not so sure of. I think it's simply the fact that she expects me to sit there. She'll probably feel like a jerk if she just leaves it there, but maybe I'm wrong. I think it's a common thing for us to do in society, in various situations. Example: The bus is starting to get full, so you move your belongings from the seat next to you on to your lap. Or, what I usually do in lecture halls is I have my bag sitting on the seat next to me, but once the row begins to fill a little (like 50%), I move my bag to the floor so others can sit. I don't know, maybe it's a slightly different situation from a psychological standpoint. I'm not going to act like I know everything about this, but this is just my intuition.



Gen Eric said:


> So the next thing maybe you should do if you want to date this girl, is to touch her. I'm not talking molestation or anything. Just a little nudge with you elbow or something.


I'm not sure how far I can go with this, since I'm actually terrified (although I may just say f*** it and try it like the other things I've done with this girl) I always have that worry that if I touch her somewhere she will yell something along the lines of sexual harassment, which is obviously ridiculous if I only touch her arm or something, but it seems to be imprinted in my brain. I don't know how I'll be able to improvise body contact, but I'll see what I can do; I'll have that in the back of my mind next time I see her, because I never do when it comes to girls.



Gen Eric said:


> Just a little subliminal reminder that your a guy. This should prevent you from getting in the friend zone (oh no! the friend zone!!), which guys like us are susceptible to.


Are you saying that if I don't touch her, she may put me in the 'friend zone' because my behavior is similar to what a girl would do to her? I guess this makes sense.



Gen Eric said:


> Also, for my info how many lectures and labs have you been talking to her for?


Two lectures (the first post in this thread being the first time I sat next to her in lecture), and probably a few more labs. We actually started talking a little the week before I started sitting next to her, because the people at my table decided to stay after the lab (we had extra time left over) to study for the biology exam that was coming up. That's when she asked me a question or two, and we talked over some problems from the practice exam. Luckily, I was able to crack some jokes from a freakin' bio exam (not to sound cocky, just a small proud moment of my life, lol)



Gen Eric said:


> Apparently, one of the major things women complain about is all the guys asking for their numbers. It not that they don't like being asked, it's just the rate at which they're asked. A guy will talk to them for 30 seconds and ask them, and they think 'why do you want my number? You don't even know me'. This is really ask complex as the dynamic behind number getting is.


Wow, I never thought of it that way. That makes a whole lot of sense. No seriously, it does, no sarcasm. I will say, however, that she's not that hot girl you see at the club kind of type, and to some guys she may be average looking. Thus, I don't think she gets too many guys asking for her number, although I don't think it's much of an issue with me and her since I've been talking with her for quite some time now.

However, I'm still worried about that 'friend zone' issue. Do you think getting her number so that we can study together be considered stepping into the 'friend zone'? Obviously dating her would be the obvious thing to do, but because I've never dated before, I'm going to be very very nervous. I think I need to get to know her better before I date her. I know, it's ironic because dating is usually meant for a guy and a girl to spend time together so they can get to know each other better. I'd rather study with her, have some side conversations so I can get to know her better and be more comfortable around her, so that IF I decide to go out on a date with her, I won't be as nervous. Still, I think I'll still be really nervous anyway, mainly because I don't really know how a date goes, but it'll be relatively less nerve-racking.



Gen Eric said:


> Also, the name thing. Non-issue. Maybe she does know your name. If she doesn't she probably feels kinda bad about that, like she forgot or missed it or something. More than likely at some point there'll be this awkward moment where she laugh nervously and asks 'im really sorry, but what was your name again?' and that'll be that. Or, quick fix, just introduce yourself. (ie I don't think i ever actually introduced myself, im justin). If your worried about this, id say at least 5-10min into conversation is best, once it's warmed up.


I've always hated being a generic person. Maybe self-introduction is the proper way to go, but I always like to throw a joke into a lot of things, or do things the nontraditional way. I think my plan will be to tell a quick story to her (I'll probably make one up just to make it easier on me) where I will quote a friend of mine, who will be addressing my name. This way she'll know my name, and it'll look like I didn't know the fact that she didn't know my name, causing less awkwardness on her part. That or if she asks my name before I can pull that off, I'll go with the "Starts with a 'J', ends in 'ustin'" trick. I've pulled this joke off a few times on people (not just with names), and it has worked out pretty well.



Gen Eric said:


> Holy crap that's long. sorry I just wrote a social psyc paper last night, kinda haven't switched off yet.


Not a problem, I like long posts. Hats off to your paper, sir.



Gen Eric said:


> If you feel like debating me on whether or not she's interested feel free, I'll hit you with references next time.:yes


I'm terrible with debates, so I think I'll pass. I'm not doubting your judgment at all, really. It's just that my mind has always been in a state of denial when it comes to girls. Even after all that, I keep thinking that she's not really interested in me. I just wish she would make one big move one me so that my confidence will skyrocket and I can have a wider variety of options.


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## Makaveli (Jul 15, 2009)

JMX said:


> Ah, now I see what you're saying. That might be tough for me, but I just thought of another idea.
> 
> Next lecture, maybe I'll try to steer one of our conversations towards movies. We'll talk about recent movies, and maybe we'll end up finding out that there's a movie we both want to see. I don't want to really make this an official date, but at least this way I'll get her number (and she'll get mine), and we'll spend time outside of class. I can't do this during the lab because there will be people around us, and it'll be awkward.
> 
> This is going to be completely out of my comfort zone, but whatever, I need to give action to get action.


Good stuff bro good on you for backing yourself esp when she was sitting alone.


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## Gen Eric (Oct 14, 2009)

Hey Justin, sorry I took this long to reply, been busy with midterms and assignments and stuff. I know you have your next lecture with her today so hopefully you'll get this tomorrow morning.

Also, maybe we could get a name for this girl, real or fake, so that we can stop calling her 'her' and start thinking of her as a person, rather than a collection of behaviors.



> This, I'm not so sure of. I think it's simply the fact that she expects me to sit there. She'll probably feel like a jerk if she just leaves it there, but maybe I'm wrong. I think it's a common thing for us to do in society, in various situations. Example: The bus is starting to get full, so you move your belongings from the seat next to you on to your lap. Or, what I usually do in lecture halls is I have my bag sitting on the seat next to me, but once the row begins to fill a little (like 50%), I move my bag to the floor so others can sit. I don't know, maybe it's a slightly different situation from a psychological standpoint. I'm not going to act like I know everything about this, but this is just my intuition.


This is true that this behavior could be considered ambiguous IF it wasn't set within the greater context of the situation. When you sit down next to a person on a bus, you have no history with them, so behaviours really have no meaning beyond social norms. However, with this girl you do have history. You've talked and made her laugh, and should have some idea of what she's all about. It seems unlikely to me that she would start up conversations with you and laugh at your jokes, all the while merely tolerating you in order to be polite. If you still don't believe that she genuinely like being around you, at least believe that you're on that end of the spectrum.



> As a matter of fact, I have, although I did poorly in psychology class. I will try to pound more humor into her next time I see her.


This worries me just a little. Remember, to just keep doing what your doing humour-wise, no more, no less. Don't try to hard or you'll just end up psyching yourself out.



> I'm not sure how far I can go with this, since I'm actually terrified (although I may just say f*** it and try it like the other things I've done with this girl) I always have that worry that if I touch her somewhere she will yell something along the lines of sexual harassment, which is obviously ridiculous if I only touch her arm or something, but it seems to be imprinted in my brain. I don't know how I'll be able to improvise body contact, but I'll see what I can do; I'll have that in the back of my mind next time I see her, because I never do when it comes to girls.


I can easily see where your coming from with this. Remember that the idea that she'll start screaming and call the cops is purely your SA talking. If you want proof, look at what some of the more piggish guys are doing. They slap girls a**es and feel them up and the girls do nothing. Im not saying this is right or that they like it or that you should do it, I'm just saying that its unlikely that you're going to get called out on an elbow brush when they get away with that.

For this, just start out with what you're comfortable with, but push yourself. Remember the dropped-stuff-hands-brushed-magical-movie-moment. That type of thing. Or perhaps if you think of something you want to say to her in class, a gentle elbow nudge, or a tap on the back of the hand or forearm.



> Are you saying that if I don't touch her, she may put me in the 'friend zone' because my behavior is similar to what a girl would do to her? I guess this makes sense.


Not necessarily, but it will help your odds. The goal is to make it salient in her head that your interested in her as a girlfriend and not as a friend. your prefered method of doing this is up to you. I have a theory as to why the friend zone happens, and is so resistant to change. When a girl is forming her mental concept of you, she slowly builds of a network of attributes she takes from her various encounters with you. At some point her concept will solidify and lose to a great degree its flexibility. If 'sexual' or 'dating meterial' or whatever isn't in that model when it hits that point. It will require a lot of effort for you physically and for her mentally to edit in the changes. Such an effect is observed when you hear the phrase 'I just can't believe he'd do something like that.' At this point she doesn't know you very well and so her Justin-Concept is very malleable. Social guys know this, which is why they always play themselves up in the beginning of a relationship, and then put next to no effort in later, to little consequence from the girl.



> Luckily, I was able to crack some jokes from a freakin' bio exam (not to sound cocky, just a small proud moment of my life, lol)


That is a truly amazing feat:clap



> However, I'm still worried about that 'friend zone' issue. Do you think getting her number so that we can study together be considered stepping into the 'friend zone'? Obviously dating her would be the obvious thing to do, but because I've never dated before, I'm going to be very very nervous. I think I need to get to know her better before I date her. I know, it's ironic because dating is usually meant for a guy and a girl to spend time together so they can get to know each other better. I'd rather study with her, have some side conversations so I can get to know her better and be more comfortable around her, so that IF I decide to go out on a date with her, I won't be as nervous. Still, I think I'll still be really nervous anyway, mainly because I don't really know how a date goes, but it'll be relatively less nerve-racking.


I truly believe that the idea that 'dating' occurs at a particular point comes from an outdated system of 'courtship' that really isn't applicable to today's society, let alone university. I think that its a gradual process, or at least a realization as opposed to a distinction. In reality all dating is is that you're actively trying to spend more time with each other than you normally would in your day-to-day life, and that you're enjoying each others company when you do. This still applies whether or not you label it as such.

This same system also says that you need to take a girl out on a 'date'. This is also obsolete. There's no need to show up at her door with candy and flowers, to subsequently whisk her out for a night of fun and frolic. These days it's just going for coffee or lunch or whatever AT FIRST. You'll still need to take her out on an actual date at some point, but these days its occuring later in the relationship. If you want, I can PM you some more pointers on the dating issue.

Don't worry about the friend zone thing yet, as its far too early to start worrying yourself into a frenzy about that. Just try to spend some time with her, whether it be studying, or grabbing a coffee or whatever. As a rule of thumb, just don't let her walk all over you (SAers are particularly susceptible to this), in the way of doing favors or being overly nice, or letting her cry to you about her troubles, and you should be gravy.

If you are unclear as to what I mean by this, listen to the song 'Self-Esteem' by Offspring and you'll know what I'm talking about.



> I've always hated being a generic person. Maybe self-introduction is the proper way to go, but I always like to throw a joke into a lot of things, or do things the nontraditional way. I think my plan will be to tell a quick story to her (I'll probably make one up just to make it easier on me) where I will quote a friend of mine, who will be addressing my name. This way she'll know my name, and it'll look like I didn't know the fact that she didn't know my name, causing less awkwardness on her part. That or if she asks my name before I can pull that off, I'll go with the "Starts with a 'J', ends in 'ustin'" trick. I've pulled this joke off a few times on people (not just with names), and it has worked out pretty well.


Hey whatever floats your boat. As long as you do it relatively naturally, it'll work just fine.



> I'm terrible with debates, so I think I'll pass. I'm not doubting your judgment at all, really. It's just that my mind has always been in a state of denial when it comes to girls. Even after all that, I keep thinking that she's not really interested in me.


Hehheh, I never thought you doubted my logic, its me that's doubting yours. I mean if you still don't believe that this girl likes you I could hit you with so many studies and stats you'll need more ram just to see it all.

Listen, I know it's hard to believe that something like this could be happening for you finally. But somewhere beneath all that doubt you have to accept that 1) your a good person with a lot to offer and 2) there's a serious opportunity with this girl. I believe this just from the little you've written on both subjects. So long as you're trying, and you're being true to yourself, you'll be _plenty_ good enough

At some point, you're going to have to give yourself permission to believe this two


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Ugh, this must have been one of the worst days of the year.

I sat down in the general area that she sits down in the lecture hall. I didn't see her come in through the front (although there's a back entrance, last lecture she was waiting around the front entrance), so I assumed she just decided to skip the lecture. Half way through the lecture as I was taking notes, I realized somebody was sitting right behind me, and I started to think that it was her (Britney is her name, I think, but I'm not 100% sure). She has a characteristic sigh that she makes a few times during the lecture, and that was what I was hearing. I still wasn't completely sure, so I just continued to takes notes. Then I heard the person behind me packing up 10 minutes before the end of class, so as the person walked out, I took a glance behind me, and it was definitely her.

What the ****...I don't get it. All that effort and she just completely ignores me. I would understand if she sat behind me and tapped me on the shoulder to say 'hi' or something, but she didn't even do that. I've had it with her. That's a clear indication that she has no interest in me. I'm not putting any more effort into this crap until I get a response from her. At least now I can say that I tried. It doesn't even have to be a relationship or a date. I just wanted companionship because I don't have any friends, and I've been denied. I don't understand this world.


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## darkrain9000 (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear that man. Maybe she's a little shy too or maybe try to talk to her again. Perhaps she had something on her mind.


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Well, I only talked to her in lab today. I sat down first in lecture, and apparently she sat a few rows behind me again, ignoring me. I really doubt she has any interest in me. I just don't get it. I see all these other people becoming friends through this class (guys with girls), but apparently I can't. Obviously I'm doing something wrong, or she just has enough friends that she doesn't care about anyone else. Found a photo of her, uploaded it here. Obviously professional photography makes anyone better looking, but I still think she's cute. So unfortunate.


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## Gen Eric (Oct 14, 2009)

well that's truly baffling. people usually don't just reverse like that. Don't take it back on yourself, you truly didn't do anything wrong. Whatever made her do that was her own personal reasons. Are you sure she could tell who you were? I've sat in the backs of rooms before and I couldn't tell who anyone was.

What went down in your lab? You said you talked to her...


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

I can't even remember much of what we talked about in lab. We were just working with the rest of the group, so really it was just all biology-related. I didn't really try to be funny, although I did pull off some jokes unconsciously. We walked out of the building together with another guy in our group while sort of holding a conversation, then it went silent and all three of us split off (even though we're all going to the same place, which is the biology lecture) while she started talking on her phone. It was pretty awkward.

I don't think she really "reversed". To me it seems like she just absorbed the things I said without really reflecting much. She didn't "give in" much, so to speak. Maybe she didn't recognize me, but I think she just doesn't care about me, or she naturally likes to sit alone during lectures. On Tuesday, I sat in the exact same spot as I did in the previous lecture when we sat together, expecting her to notice me, but she didn't (or ignored me). I did search for her facebook profile, and I'm pretty sure she's single. No relationship status posted, but she doesn't seem to mention anything about a significant other in her status updates.

Maybe she's just sick of men or something. I'm not looking for sex. Hell, I'm not even looking for a relationship or a date. I just want a female friend. I wish I could at least get a little respect for that when there are plenty of guys out there who just want to have sex with women.

It seems like my emotions are magnified more than the typical guy. This put me down so much I can hardly concentrate on my schoolwork. I decided to schedule an appointment with a clinical psychologist on November 2nd, in hopes of improving my social skills with other people, especially women.

I'm terribly sorry that I wasted your time Gen Eric, but I will say that your posts have educated me greatly. Thank you.


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## badmoonrison (May 21, 2007)

JMX said:


> Ah, I appreciate the advice.
> 
> So in a nutshell, I should take a much more aggressive approach to this, correct? This makes sense, because I basically already have her "permission" to interact with her, so I should take full charge. If I overthink this I'll probably mess it up, but I will try to be more aggressive than passive.


Be careful... Be assertive and confident, but not too overbearing or "in-your-face". It's a delicate balance


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## Stu (Nov 2, 2009)

Be *casual *with her, don't make any effort to take things further, that's her job. Make deep but amusing comments about trivial things, eg. 'another day in our little American robot factory' or 'who'd have thought being brainwashed would be so boring?'

It needs to be clear you're single. This must be general knowledge. *Do not tell her yourself unless she asks.*

Try to catch her eyes in random settings and hold them for a fraction of a second before looking away *casually*. If in conversation hold them until she looks away. Refrain from being creepy or too intense while doing this.Remember*, CASUAL.*

Women love a wistful cynic, your job is to be one.

I will share this rare little secret to getting the special girls:

*She needs to want you before she knows you want her.*

Now go forth and multiply.


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## Alys (Oct 29, 2009)

This is so funny because I go through similar things in my classes with guys..there's this one guy and he is always sitting somewhere by me and I kind of like him. I'm too afraid to just start a converstation out of the blue, but I have talked to him a few times. One time, I was waiting for him to finish his work so I could walk out with him, but he was taking too long and I was done so I had to leave or it would've painfully obvious I was waiting for him. lol Anyway, she could like you and just be having problems like you said, but it's hard to tell. I kind of agree with Stu who said "she needs to want you before she knows you want her". Nothing worse for me than when a guy obviously likes me and I don't like him...just very akward.


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## JMX (Feb 26, 2008)

Well, I'd thought I should post in this thread again because the same girl is in my personal finance class this semester, and we sit together every lecture (her name is Brittany).

We haven't done anything outside of class, although we will kind of have to because the course requires periodic group projects. What's funny is that we need groups of 3 or 4, so we went on an endeavor to find 1 or 2 more people. We ended up finding 2 more people, both girls. So now it's a group of 4, 3 girls and me. We're meeting altogether tomorrow after class, and strangely enough I don't feel nervous or anxious at all. I think this is because I don't feel anxiety towards anything that isn't "social" or "casual". In other words, this is something that is strictly "business", so I think I'm feeling okay. If the 4 of us were to go to a party or a bar or something, I think it'd be a pretty different scenario.

I've gotten pretty comfortable talking to Brittany, and I think she enjoys my company now, since during the lectures she's been initiating the conversations more than I am. I think the key is to see her as just a person and disregard the gender. I've decided to stop bothering looking for relationships, and just concentrate on my academics since I'll be graduating this semester. My attitude towards girls and relationships will be I'm willing to take what's given to me, but I'm not going to go out of my way to get it....if that makes sense.

I hope this thread has been insightful to at least some people, and I'll try to post updates if anyone is interested.


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