# Are you really a nice guy?



## Ricebunnyx3 (Sep 1, 2010)

It seems like guys call themselves nice guys as an excuse as to why they are always in the "friend zone"

Have you seen this tumblr? niceguysofokc.tumblr.com (okc = ok cupid)


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## little toaster (Jul 5, 2012)

No, but I'm good at tricking people (at school) into thinking I'm nice.

If only they knew what I had done to them on Facebook. Lol


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

awesome site haha. you know a guy is not what he says he is when he pushes the 'nice guy' thing over...and over...and over...

Hint to anyone out there who does this: less listing of your positive characteristics and more talking about what you've done. Simply stating that you're a nice guy or a smart guy or a cool guy is not convincing anyone. Stating that you volunteer for Habitat for Humanity or you went to MIT or you have traveled all over the world is much more effective.

Also...man a lot of the guys on that blog are so obviously bitter. I'm not saying it's not understandable, but I wish they would realize that it's not the nice guy thing that's keeping them from getting a girl. They *always* blame it on that. And the reality is they're not even truly nice, they're just playing that nice guy role for the girl so they can get in her pants. Then when it doesn't work, the bitterness starts bubbling up to the surface.


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## farfegnugen (Aug 16, 2010)

Does OKCupid even try to get people together anymore or is it just a troll site for people that go to a dating site to belittle people that use a dating site?


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

farfegnugen said:


> Does OKCupid even try to get people together anymore or is it just a troll site for people that go to a dating site to belittle people that use a dating site?


OkCupid is responsible for getting people together? It's just a platform, what the users do on it is entirely up to them. That being said, I know people who use OkCupid all the time to meet people.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

That is officially my new favorite site.

Pretty much what I've gathered looking at that tumblr, guys that complain that being nice gets them nowhere are pretty much admitting they're only being nice in hopes of getting a free pass into the chick. Acting like a doormat hoping for something in return is not being a nice guy.


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## Ricebunnyx3 (Sep 1, 2010)

rymo said:


> OkCupid is responsible for getting people together? It's just a platform, what the users do on it is entirely up to them. That being said, I know people who use OkCupid all the time to meet people.


I know of people who have actually met people through okcupid.

And you're right. It's not Ok Cupids job to put these people together. They're not millionaire matchmaker (or one of those matchmaker shows). They're not going to talk to you get to know you, then go out and hunt for guys that are like you. So it is up to how YOU present yourself on that site, and unfortunately these guys are doing it wrong.

It's just funny how some of them don't understand that they're not actually nice. And some of them are just whining all day about it (do they actually think a girl will see that and think "omg, I should date this sad sad guy". Why would you want pity?) And a lot of them say things that really aren't nice, like one self proclaimed "nice guy" said girls should just get over being raped, like wtf? How are you nice? Or some guys say they offered to be their friend and are surprised they're in the 'friendzone' or that they never approach girls and always get 'friendzoned' well maybe that's why.

And you're right about how they shouldn't be listing things like I'm nice, sweet kind, a gentleman, loyal, fun, honest. You can say that all day, but at the end of the day, I don't know if it's true or not, and you've failed at interesting me, because instead of putting actual things on your profile, you've created a massive sob story, well done.

(lol and I've never even used a dating site before)


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## Ricebunnyx3 (Sep 1, 2010)

Barette said:


> That is officially my new favorite site.
> 
> Pretty much what I've gathered looking at that tumblr, guys that complain that being nice gets them nowhere are pretty much admitting they're only being nice in hopes of getting a free pass into the chick. Acting like a doormat hoping for something in return is not being a nice guy.


yes, this, exactly.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

You never really hear a girl say "I opened your door for you now give me the D" or like "Man, being a nice girl gets me nowhere, nice girls finish last." So it's silly reading these guys thinking that pulling out chairs and opening doors and holding back their hair as they puke means they should be granted sex, like it's an arcade and they need to amass a certain amount of tokens to be able to pick out their prize. They really feel like it's obligated to them, because they're so "nice". It's pretty much looking at girls as objects and trying to do everything to please them so that they get to touch the pretty things. 
That blog is seriously hilarious, especially since I'm learning there's a correlation between "nice guy syndrome" and fedoras.


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## ACCV93 (Sep 6, 2012)

I think I'm a nice guy ... but maybe I'm not. I don't like making judgements about myself people who know me have to be the judge of that.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

The thing that I don't like is that it's popular to vilify nice guys and challenge the legitimacy of their claims that they are nice.






Youtube contributer girlwriteswhat talks about it in this video

Nice guys are not these evil plotting dudes who are nice to a girl just because they want to get into their pants. And they don't have a sense of entitlement. If you do nice things for a girl, that suggests that you believe that admiration from a girl is something that you have to earn. People who are truly entitled believe that they are deserving of something without actually having to put in any work. girlwriteswhat talks about that in her video.

Also it's perfectly understandable for a "nice guy" to not want to be friends with a girl who has "friend zoned" him. Being friends with a girl who doesn't like you back is torture. Whenever the genders are reversed and it's a woman pining over a male friend who doesn't return her feelings in a movie or novel, the audience is made to feel sympathetic for the girl and root for her. But when it's the guy pining over the woman that friend zoned him, in the minds of the audience, he's just some creep that wants to get into her pants.

The "nice guys of OkCupid" who don't do too well with women are unsuccessful not because they are nice. But because they have certain other traits that turn off women or they may just simply have difficulty connecting with women (or people in general! I suspect a lot of guys on SAS and guys struggling on dating sites have Asperger's Syndrome).

I was a nice guy. But a lot of my experiences have made me feel bitter and resentful. That nice guy is still there deep down though. I feel regret and guilt when I channel my frustrations in a negative way. I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling frustration though.

Women who actually think they are entitled to a guy's friendship are equally delusional as guy's who feel they deserve a woman's affections because he's nice to her.

It's easier to process these things emotionally when you don't take it so personally and you look at things from a more rational perspective. In every situation where it didn't work out with a girl for me, the issues were on both ends. For eg. Today when talking to that girl I kinda like in a group setting, I felt jealous when this other guy with us seemed to share things in common with her that I didn't and I saw him as a threat. lol. My ego wants her to like me more. Even though it is not my fault at all that I don't like western comic books and comic book movies like those two do (I'm not about to take up an interest that I don't give a **** about in order to impress a girl), my ego can't help but think I failed if god forbid she connects with some other guy better than I connect with her. I take things personally and when it's unclear whether a girl thinks I'm unattractive or a loser or whatever, my first tendency is to assume that if a girl is seemingly not interested, it must be because she thinks I'm unattractive or a loser. When pretty much most of the time it's because we don't connect or there's something else going on with her. I'm obsessed with wanting that validation. I'm friends with this gay guy and he mentions numerous times that I'm cute, attractive, etc. and unlike most straight guys, I don't mind it because the compliments make me feel good about myself. As much as girls and gay guys compliment me though, in my mind it's not enough because I'm single and I find it very difficult to get a girlfriend or get laid (though I don't try anywhere near as much as I should).

Now if we are touching upon the subject of being an ******* in order to get women: I do not believe in that. I'm just an ******* sometimes not to impress women but just because that's just how I am sometimes. Personally I feel that women (at least one that I'd date or sleep with) deserve to be treated nicely and with respect. I want to be nice to my girlfriend. I want to do favours for her, pamper her, take care of her in times of need (ie. making her soup and tea when she's sick). I like giving, not just taking. I want to show her that I care. And if that turns her off, she has serious issues. If you really want a guy who is distant, emotionally reserved, follows dating rules like the 2 day rule, etc. you have problems.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> The thing that I don't like is that it's popular to vilify nice guys and challenge the legitimacy of their claims that they are nice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That woman in the video is the same one that all the misogynists post on forums. Disposable male crap.


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## sorrwel (May 20, 2012)

Eh, this topic's been beaten to death. I don't even acknowledge the bitterness of those males anymore. If they want to keep making excuses for themselves, that's their prerogative.


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## Doomed (Jul 29, 2012)

Nope. I haven't read this topic a thousand times before.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

Though I don't doubt that they are actually genuine guys with good intentions, stable life and good reputations, it's just that their approach is not appealing or rather off-putting to most people. Then their bitterness tends to rub off on the people they are trying to get to like them (hence the saying "nice guys finish last"). It doesn't really work if they are demanding to be liked yet hate the ones who don't end up liking them. 

But then guys say, "Well I'll just be a jerk douche bag then" and well, if that were the solution, then every nice guy-turned douche bag would be in a relationship by now.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Barette said:


> Pretty much what I've gathered looking at that tumblr, guys that complain that being nice gets them nowhere are pretty much admitting they're only being nice in hopes of getting a free pass into the chick. Acting like a doormat hoping for something in return is not being a nice guy.


I really tire of reading how some guys are self-entitled doormats. It's an oxymoron and makes no sense.
It's also perfectly possible to be a genuinely nice person who asks others out, but who still keeps being rejected. I'm sure being nice isn't the reason why people are rejected, but rather it's some other trait; insecurity or lack of confidence for many people on here probably.
But being an open and kind person does puts you at risk of being exploited more and does not necessarily give much reward in the different aspects of life. But that's really the point. Surely being nice to others is a trait that should be encouraged more.

Guys aren't only nice to girls to get sex, but it seems to be used often as a justification for why a girl can reject the kindness of a guy that she's not romantically interested in - if he were "genuinely" kind, she'd be interested of course. Guys make these same justifications as well - we all do. We all try to rationalise our own behaviour so it fits with our values and what we know to be right.
But these justifications aren't always correct and if we want to improve ourselves as people, we have to be open to our interpretations of ourselves being wrong.



komorikun said:


> That woman in the video is the same one that all the misogynists post on forums. Disposable male crap.


Even so, I find it hard not to agree with what he wrote.


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## larmo8 (Sep 19, 2012)

There is no difference between "nice guys" and "jerks" -- it all just depends on what kind of game you have, and what kind of girl you're chasing after. Can you make yourself be appealing? That's the only question that matters.

With that said, on a broader level I do occasionally ponder if I'm actually a good person. I find that healthy though.


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## Daktoria (Sep 21, 2010)

Barette said:


> You never really hear a girl say "I opened your door for you now give me the D" or like "Man, being a nice girl gets me nowhere, nice girls finish last." So it's silly reading these guys thinking that pulling out chairs and opening doors and holding back their hair as they puke means they should be granted sex, like it's an arcade and they need to amass a certain amount of tokens to be able to pick out their prize. They really feel like it's obligated to them, because they're so "nice". It's pretty much looking at girls as objects and trying to do everything to please them so that they get to touch the pretty things.
> That blog is seriously hilarious, especially since I'm learning there's a correlation between "nice guy syndrome" and fedoras.


I don't think girls understand what it is to be driven for sex. You don't see "nice girl" symptom because... it's just not there. This isn't to say girls don't get aroused, but that the arousal isn't as intense. It doesn't DEMAND that they pursue, and those who do feel intense arousal get grumpy and nasty, exploiting how males are expected to be rugged individualists.

However, women do understand what it means to be driven because as females get older, their sex drives jump for joy. Male sex drives decay as they get older.

I've actually had more success hitting on older women than younger girls because of this. Girls behave like brats. Women behave like ladies.

The best thing I can say is that if females insist on dissing "nice guy" symptom, then they're going to have a rude awakening 20, 30, 40 years from now when the shoe's on the other foot.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

sanria22 said:


> Though I don't doubt that they are actually genuine guys with good intentions, stable life and good reputations, it's just that their approach is not appealing or rather off-putting to most people. Then their bitterness tends to rub off on the people they are trying to get to like them (hence the saying "nice guys finish last"). It doesn't really work if they are demanding to be liked yet hate the ones who don't end up liking them.
> 
> But then guys say, "Well I'll just be a jerk douche bag then" and well, if that were the solution, then every nice guy-turned douche bag would be in a relationship by now.


I think in some cases, women can sense bitterness in a guy. In my case, I doubt it's actually noticeable. Bitterness for me manifests itself in the form of low self-confidence. Women I'm attracted to can tell from their body language that I'm anxious and not confident and see myself as inferior to them at least on some level. I don't like thinking that a girl may actually like me because I don't want to set myself up for disappointment.

Honestly I think people look at the confidence thing the wrong way. It's not a case of women thinking "oh he's so confidence, I'm wet down there!" No. I think it's more to do with confidence allowing you to be the person that you are. And allowing you to pull the trigger when necessary.

When I analyze my past dates, I find that a lot of my failures are not due to lack of confidence but more so due to lack of connection or chemistry. In every case where I've had success with women, women gave me signals to let me know that they like me. I saw that as an indication that I only do well with assertive women and that I need to be more assertive to get with more passive women. But I think in the vast majority of cases with women, they drop you signals. I've studied male-female courtship from a third-person perspective on TV shows and the women there display body language that is consistent with the body language or tone (text message and instant messaging isn't a rich form of communication but you can pick up on cues from there too) that women who liked me displayed towards me.

Confidence matters a whole lot when it comes to pulling the trigger, making the move, sex, taking initiative with planning dates, etc.

I am quite positive though that the reason why I have found myself on fire with some girls and then not with others in the future isn't because I have lost confidence over time. But because I'm not meeting the right women as often as I should. Because I don't talk to enough women. My approaches are sporadic.

I need to keep a record of the text/online communication I've made with girls that have turned into successes or keep a journal of the real-life communications that have turned out in my favour so I can understand what it is that I'm doing right. I think the common element is that women in all cases would give me a signal and I would do something about it (the latter part takes confidence). Unless the girl is shy, I'm willing to bet that a girl hasn't developed an interest in you yet if she isn't giving off some sort of signals.


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## Daktoria (Sep 21, 2010)

Another problem is nobody ever really says what it means to be a genuine "nice guy".

It's like they expect males to just magically figure this out.

On the other hand, many do say that being a "nice guy" is being nice for the sake of it.

That's slavery, and at that, many nice people are taken for granted for their niceness. Frankly, if you believe in slavery, you should probably be put to it to see what it's like. Some people might feel enjoyment from helping others, but everyone doesn't. Expecting people to be helpful for the sake of helping does not respect everyone. It only respects those who are actually born with those feelings.

Then, you have people who call those who refuse to be nice "jerks".

It's like critics of "nice guys" are deliberately making self-respect, esteem, and confidence impossible. They're treating "nice guys" like crap as if they're guilty before proven innocent because they can.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Barette said:


> You never really hear a girl say "I opened your door for you now give me the D" or like "Man, being a nice girl gets me nowhere, nice girls finish last." So it's silly reading these guys thinking that pulling out chairs and opening doors and holding back their hair as they puke means they should be granted sex, like it's an arcade and they need to amass a certain amount of tokens to be able to pick out their prize. They really feel like it's obligated to them, because they're so "nice". It's pretty much looking at girls as objects and trying to do everything to please them so that they get to touch the pretty things.


I'm kind of disappointed to see you buying into this fallacy, since you usually tend to be more nuanced on these things, from what I've seen.

Then again, I could say the same for a ton of women on this site who otherwise seem very perceptive and intelligent. There's obviously some disconnect in our psychology and/or life experiences that makes most women fail to understand the "nice guy" argument. It's not that you have to agree with it, but the things so many of you say indicate to me that you don't even grasp what we're saying to begin with.

Or maybe it's simply that society has recently pushed this whole anti- "Nice Guy (TM)" campaign, and jumping onboard is more convenient and hip than actually thinking about the issue in shades of gray. I don't know.

I do know that I'm not even wasting my time explaining the logic behind why "nice guys" feel they have a legitimate gripe (unless someone specifically asks), since I've done so in threads like this upwards of a dozen times and it *ALWAYS* gets completely ignored by the other side, most of whom made up their mind long ago.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

anomalous said:


> I'm kind of disappointed to see you buying into this fallacy, since you usually tend to be more nuanced on these things, from what I've seen.
> 
> Then again, I could say the same for a ton of women on this site who otherwise seem very perceptive and intelligent. There's obviously some disconnect in our psychology and/or life experiences that makes most women fail to understand the "nice guy" argument. It's not that you have to agree with it, but the things so many of you say indicate to me that you don't even grasp what we're saying to begin with.
> 
> ...


You're right, you didn't explain the logic behind why "nice guys" have a legitimate gripe, because there is none. In fact, everyone defending the "nice guy" is completely missing the point: being a nice doormat is not going to get you a girl. And when this silly overly nice approach doesn't work, these faux nice guys get all bitter and become not-so-nice guys, and then proceed to blame it solely on that. "I'm TOO MOTHER ****ING NICE GOD DAMNIT! THAT'S THE MOTHER ****ING PROBLEM!"

*Being nice is a good thing*. But if that's all you're offering, then it's rarely going to work. Understanding what girls are actually attracted to would go a long way in opening some guys' eyes to reality and not blaming their lack of success on women themselves.

A mature, awesome, classy guy will open a door for a girl, offer to pay, give her gifts, and do little sweet things that shows he cares. But he will also flirt with her, bust her balls a little bit, challenge her in new and exciting ways, call her out when she's doing something wrong, not be afraid to be physical with her when the moment is right.

A faux nice guy will open a door for a girl, offer to pay, give her gifts every five seconds, call and text her all the time - basically do everything for her. He doesn't know how to flirt very well, he never challenges her, the focus of the conversation is always her, she lets him walk all over him if she is that type, he asks to kiss her instead of just going for it (and rarely physically escalates), and when things don't work out for him he blames it on being "too nice" instead of realizing that it's probably because he just has no confidence or any idea what women are attracted to in a man.

Playing the blame game is only going to hurt the "nice guy" in the end. Ideally, this type would stop wasting energy blaming and instead improve his chances by reading about what actually attracts women and then putting it into practice by, well, practicing.


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## Daktoria (Sep 21, 2010)

rymo said:


> You're right, you didn't explain the logic behind why "nice guys" have a legitimate gripe, because there is none. In fact, everyone defending the "nice guy" is completely missing the point: being a nice doormat is not going to get you a girl. And when this silly overly nice approach doesn't work, these faux nice guys get all bitter and become not-so-nice guys, and then proceed to blame it solely on that. "I'm TOO MOTHER ****ING NICE GOD DAMNIT! THAT'S THE MOTHER ****ING PROBLEM!"
> 
> *Being nice is a good thing*. But if that's all you're offering, then it's rarely going to work. Understanding what girls are actually attracted to would go a long way in opening some guys' eyes to reality and not blaming their lack of success on women themselves.
> 
> ...


You know the reason "nice guys" can't flirt well is because of feminism, right?

When girls are entitled to develop their personalities at the expense of boys in order to correct for "historical injustices" that boys had nothing to do with, that means those boys will lack personality to approach with into the future.

In turn, they're conditioned to be well-behaved and submissive because authorities while growing up don't want them to be chauvinists. On top of that, "nice guys" expect to be rewarded for good behavior because it's what they were told to do while growing up.

If people want "nice guys" to cut out the act, then feminism needs to be eradicated from childhood development. Otherwise, boys will continue to grow up without becoming men.

"Reading about what attracts women" is totally off the mark too. Women aren't robots. There's no "general program" for what they like. Besides, the women in their communities who bring boys up should be teaching them this so their communities remain prosperous and successful, remembering that boys don't consent to join communities and are entitled to social assimilation.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Daktoria said:


> You know the reason "nice guys" can't flirt well is because of feminism, right?
> 
> When girls are entitled to develop their personalities at the expense of boys in order to correct for "historical injustices" that boys had nothing to do with, that means those boys will lack personality to approach with into the future.
> 
> ...


People don't _want_ "nice guys" to cut the act. In fact I don't think girls really care one way or the other. They just pass those guys up. It's just amusing when people blame it on being nice. As for not being able to flirt, it can be learned. Hell, I was 24 before I even held hands with a girl. I grew up not knowing how the **** to talk to anyone, let alone girls. Then I LEARNED how to flirt by practicing my *** off. I stopped blaming society and focused on myself instead.

And yes, reading about what attracts women does help. I was in the same boat a few years ago. I thought it was all about letting girls tell you about their problems and being an emotional sponge for them. Laughing at their jokes even when they weren't funny, making them feel good about themselves in any way possible. Then by opening my mind to change and doing some research I realized it's more about a push and pull, a give and take, challenging them but also being a nice, caring guy. If that's off the mark, then the past two years of my life are a complete sham.


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## lonelygirl88 (Dec 25, 2009)

rymo said:


> you know a guy is not what he says he is when he pushes the 'nice guy' thing over...and over...and over...


So true and SO annoying. Guys who say that are idiots. Do they think a girl will be like... "oh, he said he's a nice guy, great. I feel so reassured now."

It's like anything else...a guy saying he's sweet, caring, good, etc. Show don't tell people. If he is truly nice he would be nice enough to show it instead of type it.


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## Daktoria (Sep 21, 2010)

rymo said:


> People don't _want_ "nice guys" to cut the act. In fact I don't think girls really care one way or the other. They just pass those guys up. It's just amusing when people blame it on being nice. As for not being able to flirt, it can be learned. Hell, I was 24 before I even held hands with a girl. I grew up not knowing how the **** to talk to anyone, let alone girls. Then I LEARNED how to flirt by practicing my *** off. I stopped blaming society and focused on myself instead.
> 
> And yes, reading about what attracts women does help. I was in the same boat a few years ago. I thought it was all about letting girls tell you about their problems and being an emotional sponge for them. Laughing at their jokes even when they weren't funny, making them feel good about themselves in any way possible. Then by opening my mind to change and doing some research I realized it's more about a push and pull, a give and take, challenging them but also being a nice, caring guy. If that's off the mark, then the past two years of my life are a complete sham.


This is all really unhelpful.

Basically, you just said that society finds it funny when men are enslaved due to being born socially outcast and not knowing the rules of engagement.

Likewise, you lucked out in reading some magical material and practicing without getting in trouble or reported to authorities.

Do you know how many "nice guys" are out there because they're trying to avoid being charged with harassment after "practicing" like you said?

Likewise, lots of women hate being challenged. Heck, if you do challenge them, they respond in saying, "Who do you think you are? My father?" and laugh it off. Tons of other women say you're coming off as a patriarch too and need to get with the times.

I just don't buy your technique. I understand what it takes to tease by deliberately and symbolically misinterpreting what a woman says, but the way you described it as "challenging" is off the mark. Heck, girls behave as if it's their entitlement to challenge you, and if men don't respond, it's their loss.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

Harassment? Who gets charged with harassment? For what, flirting?


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Daktoria said:


> This is all really unhelpful.
> 
> Basically, you just said that society finds it funny when men are enslaved due to being born socially outcast and not knowing the rules of engagement.
> 
> ...


You have an incredibly intense victim mentality. Just as with the faux nice guys, you blame society and women in general. You can keep arguing the point, but my point is that doing so isn't going to get you anywhere. It's called learning and growing as a person instead of blaming everyone else for your misfortune. And believe me, learning how to flirt with a girl will not get you thrown in jail lol. I think you're confusing flirting with rape.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Daktoria said:


> You know the reason "nice guys" can't flirt well is because of feminism, right?
> 
> When girls are entitled to develop their personalities at the expense of boys in order to correct for "historical injustices" that boys had nothing to do with, that means those boys will lack personality to approach with into the future.
> 
> ...


You must not be very well versed in human history, otherwise you'd be aware that the feminist movement is an incredibly recent concept on the timeline of human development compared to the issues that you are trying to claim are caused by feminism. Social anxiety, socialization, and social development are all things that predate feminism. And those accompanying issues existed well before the feminist movement. By, like, centuries.

Stop blaming feminism. Feminism exists because women have been oppressed in the past and present simply for being women. To suggest that we need to regress back to a time when the oppression of women was more socially acceptable is incredibly bigoted. You're basically inferring that men need to oppress women and become chauvinists in order to be "real men". Why do you believe that women need to suffer in order for you to "be a man"?

People have explained many, many times the differences between a genuinely nice guy and a fake "nice guy". All you have to do is google the term "nice guy" and you will find even more explanations. *It's pretty obvious that this, and other threads related to the topic, are talking about a very specific type of person, and not every guy who is nice.* When women complain about nice guys, they are obviously not talking about genuinely nice men. This topic as been discussed to death. There really is no excuse for still not getting it.

But if you and the other dudes in this thread sticking up for fake nice guys still don't get it by now, maybe it's time to take a step back and actually read what people here are saying.


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## awkwardsilent (Jun 14, 2012)

Barette - Thats what I was wondering, flirting is definitely not at all the same as harassment its a give and take thing, back and forth, playing off each others reactions. (Not that I really know how to flirt... I haven't really had much practice apparently I miss out on things all the time, Like apparently when someone initiates a conversation about your blackberry they're actually wishing you'd exchange contact info...?I miss these things...).


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

au Lait said:


> You must not be very well versed in human history, otherwise you'd be aware that the feminist movement is an incredibly recent concept on the timeline of human development compared to the issues that you are trying to claim are caused by feminism. Social anxiety, socialization, and social development are all things that predate feminism. And those accompanying issues existed well before the feminist movement. By, like, centuries.
> 
> Stop blaming feminism. Feminism exists because women have been oppressed in the past and present simply for being women. To suggest that we need to regress back to a time when the oppression of women was more socially acceptable is incredibly bigoted. You're basically inferring that men need to oppress women and become chauvinists in order to be "real men". Why do you believe that women need to suffer in order for you to "be a man"?
> 
> ...


It's true that there are guys who believe that if he's nice to a girl, she has to take the D. That's wrong and there's no defending that.

girlwriteswhat's "war on the nice guy" video has some merit though. She is talking more about how when a nice guy gets friend zoned, it's often believed that he's really an ******* if he's not happy with the fact that he was friend zoned. It's going to kill a guy inside to hang out with a girl he has affections for if she doesn't return his feelings. He has every right to walk away from that situation. It doesn't make him a jerk. There's nothing wrong with a guy being extra nice to a girl because he likes her and wants to win over her affections.

I think a lot of these guys who pine over their female friends for so long are genuinely nice. Guys who have a "I'm nice to you, now take the D" mentality tend to be very impatient (though not as impatient as the guys who feel like they are just simply entitled to get laid without doing anything at all but approaching a girl! lol). This is part of the reason why most girls have a 3-5 date rule. If a guy is patient, he's more likely to be a quality guy who would stick around.


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## brettfavre4life (Apr 20, 2012)

I have finally started accepting the fact that I was similar to many of the guys that are in that blog. I was constantly playing the victim role and wanting women to feel sorry for me and thus give me a shot (it pains me to even type that). And constantly doing everything under the sun to try and show them how nice I was because I thought they'd be guilted into dating me. The sad part is I had no idea I was doing this...which makes me think a lot of those guys also have no idea what they're doing. A lot of those guys (including myself years ago) appear to be nice, but the second they realize they aren't getting what they want, their true self comes out and they try to belittle the object of their desire for her not wanting them romantically.

Nowadays, my SA is so bad that I make zero effort to interact with women, so my days of smothering them with nice gestures are far behind me. But I am thankful that I understand past mistakes so that I can avoid them in the future if I ever get back to being able to date. In a weird way, being socially isolated for a while now has made me more confident because I've had a lot of alone time to evaluate my actions and hopefully improve myself.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> The thing that I don't like is that it's popular to vilify nice guys and challenge the legitimacy of their claims that they are nice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*+ 1 for posting a girlwriteswhat video;*
I don't agree with everything shes says, but some of the stuff is so bang on it's scary. I always feel that by watching one of her videos expands my understanding and world view. She's that ridiculously intelligent.

*AND + 1,000,000 for realising that said site originally posted is a spiteful hate blog.*
Shame on some of you on here for actually finding this sort of thing amusing. Using people's personal data without consent and mocking them. No doubt many of you were extremely vocal and 'heartbroken' when the victim of such cruel internet malice was a young girl in the form of Amanda Todd - but when the recipients are hopelessly awkward young men suddenly it's perfectly fair game :sus Humanity depresses me so much sometimes.

And to the vocal women in here complaining that these men should just suck it up and stop being bitter. Obviously you have no point of reference for a start, but ignoring that huge logical fallacy for now, can you really blame a generation of young men raised on the Disney-esque notion that being overly nice and a gentleman is the way to attract women ? In a time frame also where women have become much more demanding, argumentative and willing to divorce (Feminism, consumerism, Hollywood Romanticism). Can you honestly blame these men for feeling just a little short changed ?


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Paper Samurai said:


> *+ 1 for posting a girlwriteswhat video;*
> I don't agree with everything shes says, but some of the stuff is so bang on it's scary. I always feel that by watching one of her videos expands my understanding and world view. She's that ridiculously intelligent.
> 
> *AND + 1,000,000 for realising that said site originally posted is a spiteful hate blog.*
> ...


Exactly. Right on.

But Ricebunny, Barrette, au Lait, et al. will never hear any of it. Much easier simply to focus on this unrealistic notion that being bitter makes one evil, even if they continue to act nicely in the face of said bitterness. (Cue the responses that "no, we're only talking about jerks who tell a girl off when she won't f-ck him on the first date," even though 99.999% of the guys we're really talking about aren't anything like that).

It's not enough just to be nice to people. *The mere act of getting frustrated and ranting because we're not accepted makes us bad people*. We're held to a different moral standard than everyone else -- women, or attractive men. We're failing a test that practically no one else even has to take (how do you react when 0% of the opposite sex finds you attractive due to your demeanor?), and our character assassinated as a result of that supposed failing.

What this anti- "Nice Guy (TM)" crusade is really about is lessening women's guilt over their own sexual preferences. All it ever has been, really. That video is pure f-cking gold.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Paper Samurai said:


> can you really blame a generation of young men raised on the Disney-esque notion that being overly nice and a gentleman is the way to attract women ?





> Can you honestly blame these men for feeling just a little short changed ?


Can you honestly blame women for being defensive when just about every "nice guys" thread has people saying things from "women are like children" to "women are hypocrites"? Does the condescension dripping off the likes of anomalous and Daktoria seriously not bother you?


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

rednosereindeer said:


> Can you honestly blame women for being defensive when just about every "nice guys" thread has people saying things from "women are like children" to "women are hypocrites"?


You're deflecting right now and not addressing the points I made. Reasoning along the lines of: "Well that's bad and all, but this here is bad too" is neither a valid counter, or an interesting expansion of the original thought.


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## Nexus777 (Dec 1, 2012)

Damn I am glad I am not a nice guy, all this talk about those kind of species and for what ? All for nuttin´  

Also I share a secret with you: There are women out there who want sex+love, not only the guys want it and want to force women into it with being nice or a jerk. Sometimes men are what they are and they give a **** about having sex with you. And they dont mock any behaviour to get in your pants. Are these guys so rare ? Than I really must be something special among male species (guess thats good for SA?)

Well only telling from my very limited experience


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Paper Samurai said:


> You're deflecting right now and not addressing the points I made. Reasoning along the lines of: "Well that's bad and all, but this here is bad too" is neither a valid counter, or an interesting expansion of the original thought.


OK.

I'll answer your questions if you answer mine.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

rednosereindeer said:


> OK.
> 
> I'll answer your questions if you answer mine.


Doubt it.

And LOL at my condescension being any worse than at least 10 women (yourself among them) and white knights who always swarm into these threads. It's a two-way street.

It's been awhile since I've seen anyone compare women to children when discussing this topic :sus. Hypocrites? Maybe. I think a lot (but not all) of the women who are so passionate about this topic are internally conflicted in terms of what attracts them vs. what they wish attracted them, which drives this irrational hatred of a group that really causes them far less grief in life than many other groups they're ambivalent about.


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## Isabelle50 (Nov 19, 2012)

> And believe me, learning how to flirt with a girl will not get you thrown in jail lol. I think you're confusing flirting with rape.


HA!! Best quote of the whole thread.

Here is how to avoid jailtime while learning how to flirt. Until you're certain the girl is interested, keep your hands (or other body parts) to yourself or at the very least stop if asked. If you're explicitly told to back off.... back off. Don't practice flirting with coworkers. Don't rape anyone.

Bingo. Thats pretty much it for jail-worthy offenses.


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## Isabelle50 (Nov 19, 2012)

As for the rest of it, I'll make a list about what I consider okay vs not.
Its okay to....
- be frustrated or disappointed if a girl isn't interested
- not want a friendship where you would be pining after someone who isn't interested
- stand up for yourself. Nice guy doesn't mean doormat, just respectful and kind

Its not okay to...
- blame the girl for not being interested
- worse, blame _all women_ for not being interested
- think that being nice _entitles_ you to a date or sex
- say you're a 'nice guy' because you're meek or have no self confidence but under the surface is bitterness and nastiness.


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## meeps (Dec 5, 2011)

^spot on


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## Sniper Wolf (Oct 19, 2012)

disregard FEMALES 
ACQUIRE AESTHETICS
then females be mirin


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## Sniper Wolf (Oct 19, 2012)

MEN This is what you look like to women


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## fingertips (Jan 11, 2009)

you look like a bad poster to everyone. hth.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

^Wow, I have never looked at a man and said, "GOD DAMN, HE IS LOADED, WHAT IS HIS NAME?!?!?!?" Money never shows on the outside anywhere or inside. Some people (women) just don't care.


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## Isabelle50 (Nov 19, 2012)

I've always found Franklin to be quite the fox. The smooth shiny forehead, the chin wattle and oh... that waterfall of hair!

Oh, sorry... you meant money. If money's all you've got going for you, you're gonna have a bad time.


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## Eschara (Dec 12, 2012)

If I look inside myself honestly I can't consider myself to be nice, I'm a self centered, former druggie but I'm a thoroughly half way decent guy sometimes when it serves my interests


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## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

I don't really thinks so.

I tend to tell everyone whatever I'm thinking, regardless of whether it's nice or not.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

lol @ the direction this thread's gone in within 3 pages. Like 5 mentions of feminism already, lol.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

opcorn


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## Sniper Wolf (Oct 19, 2012)

Barette said:


> lol @ the direction this thread's gone in within 3 pages. Like 5 mentions of feminism already, lol.


feminism = Pure Evil


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## identitycrisis (Sep 18, 2011)

What I can't stand is that neither side of any argument like this is willing to _discuss_, it's all about banging your fist on the table and demanding that your opinion is more valid, that you know how the world works and everyone else is just plain wrong.

The problem isn't with "Nice Guys." The problem isn't with feminists, friend zones, or flirting strategies. The problem seems to be that we've all collectively forgotten how to communicate with each other. That, or we never learned. It's like we're all arguing about what size of band-aid to apply to a gunshot wound, or trying to figure out who to blame for the shot while the victim is laying there bleeding out.

I don't have the answers, but it seems like everyone's asking the wrong questions. What I want to know is, why can't I just go outside right now, just as I am, and meet people interested in dating me? Why does it have to be an elaborate pick-up strategy where you dab yourself with dryer sheets, make direct eye contact, touch her left arm with the back of your right hand for 3.2 seconds then follow up with a minor insult? Why does it have to be a tightrope walk where any stumble such as pulling out a restaurant chair or being compassionate or being "nice" instantly make you unattractive? Why must I be neutered with the label "nice guy"? Why do I have to act confident if I'm not feeling confident? Why can't I connect with people when I'm just being myself?

It's foolish of me to think this way, because no matter what I say, people will still believe in crap like "nice guys" and "friend zones" and "Prince Charming" and "sensitive-caring-strong-mysterious-tall-dark-handsome" instead of having a real discussion, because having that real discussion would force people to look at the parts of themselves they'd rather not see. Being honest is hard, especially when that honesty makes you look weak and selfish and needy to the people around you. The way we've made our interpersonal communication these days is as broken as our political system.


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## Black And Mild (Apr 11, 2011)

*"Are you really a nice guy?"

*no


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## Isabelle50 (Nov 19, 2012)

Huh. Cynical idealist sounds about right.... I like it.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

identitycrisis said:


> What I can't stand is that neither side of any argument like this is willing to _discuss_, it's all about banging your fist on the table and demanding that your opinion is more valid, that you know how the world works and everyone else is just plain wrong.
> 
> The problem isn't with "Nice Guys." The problem isn't with feminists, friend zones, or flirting strategies. The problem seems to be that we've all collectively forgotten how to communicate with each other. That, or we never learned. It's like we're all arguing about what size of band-aid to apply to a gunshot wound, or trying to figure out who to blame for the shot while the victim is laying there bleeding out.
> 
> ...


You can't go out right now and meet people interested in dating you because people aren't just born wanting to date you. You have to talk to them, get to know them, charm them, be attractive to them in some way. Being yourself is a good thing, but you're not being yourself if you're not confident about who you are. You don't always have to be feeling like Casanova, but it certainly helps to believe in yourself. That's just what's attractive. Do you want society to change its collective outlook all of a sudden? But that's not to say you can't meet girls who like shy guys, or fat guys, or this guy or that guy. There are no hard and fast rules, these are generalities. But they do exist for a reason.

And let me ask - how many times have you just gone out and tried to meet people? Actually did what you're saying is not possible to do - just walk outside and start talking to people you were attracted to? Because I bet if you tried that repeatedly, you would be positively surprised about the results.

Finally, why is everyone missing the point of the OP's post completely? Nice guys are not bad, it's those guys who call themselves nice when they're not, people with a victim mentality saying all girls like douchebags (which is completely untrue), and then somehow thinking that because they are sensitive and nice THAT is the reason why they keep getting rejected. No, that is not the reason. The reason is that they play the sensitive and nice game and have no other depth to their character when they're around the girl. They put on this facade that they are super caring and loyal when all they want is to get in the girl's pants. That is not being nice, that is being fake and letting the girl walk all over them in the hopes that somehow it turns into something.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

identitycrisis said:


> What I can't stand is that neither side of any argument like this is willing to _discuss_, it's all about banging your fist on the table and demanding that your opinion is more valid, that you know how the world works and everyone else is just plain wrong.
> 
> The problem isn't with "Nice Guys." The problem isn't with feminists, friend zones, or flirting strategies. The problem seems to be that we've all collectively forgotten how to communicate with each other. That, or we never learned. It's like we're all arguing about what size of band-aid to apply to a gunshot wound, or trying to figure out who to blame for the shot while the victim is laying there bleeding out.
> 
> ...


Great post. I'm very biased and usually go overboard when I discuss this topic, but you've kept a balanced perspective I can still get behind.


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## identitycrisis (Sep 18, 2011)

rymo said:


> You can't go out right now and meet people interested in dating you because people aren't just born wanting to date you. You have to talk to them, get to know them, charm them, be attractive to them in some way. Being yourself is a good thing, but you're not being yourself if you're not confident about who you are. You don't always have to be feeling like Casanova, but it certainly helps to believe in yourself. That's just what's attractive. Do you want society to change its collective outlook all of a sudden? But that's not to say you can't meet girls who like shy guys, or fat guys, or this guy or that guy. There are no hard and fast rules, these are generalities. But they do exist for a reason.
> 
> And let me ask - how many times have you just gone out and tried to meet people? Actually did what you're saying is not possible to do - just walk outside and start talking to people you were attracted to? Because I bet if you tried that repeatedly, you would be positively surprised about the results.


My post wasn't meant to be another "Why can't I attract girls" complaint - I recognize where my faults are, and that I can do better. What you're saying is true, and I appreciate that you're one of the very few on this forum that challenge people to take an active role in their own lives.

But my complaints are more with our culture instead of my own situation. I know, I know, It's futile to complain about - I'd have more luck trying to get people to stop drinking energy drinks or smoking cigarettes - but the blame always gets thrown in the wrong corner. We've built up a culture where men are pressured to be strong, confident alphas who get what they want, when they want it. Women are pressured to be the eye-catching object of a man's desires, or else pressured to completely reject that idea and act like men, with no middle ground.

In reality, there's only a very small number of people who fit those molds perfectly. Most of us fit into vastly different categories, if we fit into categories at all. Our culture is trying to condition men to respond only to physically attractive women, and condition women to respond only to assertive, strong men. It's ridiculous. Men are out looking for 9s and 10s, and missing the 6s, 7s, and 8s. Women are out looking for Mr. Perfect, and not seeing Mr. Pretty Darn Good.

If I need to be confident in myself, why can't I be confident in the negative aspects of myself? They're still part of me. But we're not supposed to be honest. How many online dating profiles have you seen where anyone said _anything_ negative about themselves? Instead, they lie, or "stretch" the truth. Post angle-y, blurry pictures. Because if there's anything imperfect about you, you're suddenly below the standard.

Nobody's perfect. And really, most of us are just looking for someone who they'll be happy with. But there's no good system in place for people who fall short of those standards in some way. I'm not a particularly assertive or charming person. I don't want my question to be _how_ do I be assertive and charming in order to attract girls. My question is, _why_ do I have to be assertive and charming? Every girl out there is attracted only to men who are assertive and charming? Those qualities don't make you a better mate. I won't believe that everyone is that shallow.

Now that I think about it, rejecting these gender roles might be why I'm still single. It certainly doesn't do me any favors in the dating world. Maybe I'm just a fool who needs to wake up, stop talking so much, and conform to the ways of the world. But I'm stubborn too, and I don't believe that.


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## Daktoria (Sep 21, 2010)

au Lait said:


> You must not be very well versed in human history, otherwise you'd be aware that the feminist movement is an incredibly recent concept on the timeline of human development compared to the issues that you are trying to claim are caused by feminism. Social anxiety, socialization, and social development are all things that predate feminism. And those accompanying issues existed well before the feminist movement. By, like, centuries.
> 
> Stop blaming feminism. Feminism exists because women have been oppressed in the past and present simply for being women. To suggest that we need to regress back to a time when the oppression of women was more socially acceptable is incredibly bigoted. You're basically inferring that men need to oppress women and become chauvinists in order to be "real men". Why do you believe that women need to suffer in order for you to "be a man"?
> 
> ...


Just no.

Removing privilege does not equal incapacitation.

If girls are entitled to attention before boys during childhood development in order to accommodate for historical injustice that boys had nothing to do with, then boys are being coerced.


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## Daktoria (Sep 21, 2010)

Barette said:


> Harassment? Who gets charged with harassment? For what, flirting?


Yes.

Lots of guys are afraid of coming off as creeps because of their anxiety from having their personality development incapacitated, so they behave nice in order to compensate.

Nice guys also don't know how to tease because that incapacitation made them excessively sensitive. They lack the ability to be light-hearted and take things gradually, and to boot, they're desperate for release from being incapacitated fo so long, so the tension against teasing lightly is even tighter.


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## Daktoria (Sep 21, 2010)

rymo said:


> You have an incredibly intense victim mentality. Just as with the faux nice guys, you blame society and women in general. You can keep arguing the point, but my point is that doing so isn't going to get you anywhere. It's called learning and growing as a person instead of blaming everyone else for your misfortune. And believe me, learning how to flirt with a girl will not get you thrown in jail lol. I think you're confusing flirting with rape.


(Barette and au Lait, please see the bottom of the last page)

/fingertap

Yes, flirting with a girl can end up with you reported to the authorities. Even if it's not the police (which it can be if a girl sends the police records of your communication or has a reputation and witnesses), it can also be a private authority such as a landlord, employer, club owner, etc.

Heck, it's also easy to end up in fights with other men even in the moment who want to play the white knight role, or you can end up with a flock of women who tell you to go away in trying to stand up for their own.

On top of that, gossip doesn't help much in this age, especially with social networking sites being so prevalent.

The rest of what you said is just elitist arrogance, and as someone who's had success, believe me, I'm not intimidated by your nonsense. You're picking on people who were born unluckily disconnected or exposed while having sensitive personalities, and on a social anxiety website, that's ESPECIALLY disrespectful.

You should be ashamed. People come here looking for answers and a sense of fraternity, not to be ridiculed for their shortcomings. A REAL man would understand that.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

Daktoria said:


> (Barette and au Lait, please see the bottom of the last page)


I'm gonna let au Lait take this cause she's smarter than me, if she even wants to bother with this subject. I'm not gonna bother. I stand by what I said on the first page, and I'm sorry if any of y'all take offense to that. People like nice people. So girls like nice guys, and guys like nice girls. We all just like nice people. So I think it's silly when _some_ guys complain of being nice, and blame the girls for not seeing how wonderful and nice they are. As if attraction is that simple. Especially since there's plenty of "nice" guys out there who don't need to shout from the rooftops that they're nice, but instead showcase it through their actions.

I'm not gonna get into feminism and all your ideas on it. It's just tiring talking about this stuff, I've tried with you before and it's not really fun. All you do is ignore what we say and just repeat the same stuff over and over.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Daktoria said:


> (Barette and au Lait, please see the bottom of the last page)
> 
> /fingertap
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm so ashamed. Let me stop telling people that they can learn to flirt because they will, in fact, BE ARRESTED for it. Let me tell people that they should fear improvement because of that and hey, feminism ruined them forever so what's the point anyway? Why bother trying to change when we can blame all our problems on something else and do nothing about them! You are SO right Daktoria, and your extreme defensiveness is a great example for all to follow. Congratulations, you have successfuly stood up to the tyranny that is rymo.


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## evginmubutu (Sep 12, 2011)

If you are nice it will show without you trying so Damn hard. Just like if you are a jerk. Stop thinking so much and arguing in your head why you are alone it's crazy. Girls like when you are brave but this only means you don't fear your fear so to speak.


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## mattigummi (Aug 26, 2012)

Yes.


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## tennislover84 (May 14, 2010)

Even if you know you're not a "fake" nice guy, it's hard not to take this stuff to heart and get really down about it. Because we're all anxious here and probably have some painful experiences with relationships, or lack of relationships. You assume that there's something wrong with you if things haven't gone well, and then you read these threads that are so brutal, with words like "doormats" bandied around... if you're already feeling vulnerable it gets to you. Mostly I can either think more rationally about it, or just ignore these threads, but for some reason I clicked on one today and now I feel horrible.

I just wish these threads would go away. The same for the ones which target women, because I know it would feel just as bad.


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## Daktoria (Sep 21, 2010)

rymo said:


> Yes, I'm so ashamed. Let me stop telling people that they can learn to flirt because they will, in fact, BE ARRESTED for it. Let me tell people that they should fear improvement because of that and hey, feminism ruined them forever so what's the point anyway? Why bother trying to change when we can blame all our problems on something else and do nothing about them! You are SO right Daktoria, and your extreme defensiveness is a great example for all to follow. Congratulations, you have successfuly stood up to the tyranny that is rymo.


It's not a matter of fearing improvement.

It's a matter recognizing who's responsible for making problems in our lives and holding them responsible for their actions.

If I break your leg, is it someone else's right to simply clamor, "What are you gunna do about it? Just lay there? Pull yourself up by your bootstraps!

Anyway, Merry Christmas. The idea of the holidays is being graceful enough to understand what it means for people to come together instead of simply having to depend on themselves after society's let them fall through the cracks.


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## Baiken (Sep 11, 2012)

No, I'm a bad guy™, meaning that I'm rude towards women whilst believing in equality and such.


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## AJFA88 (Jun 16, 2007)

from OP's tumblr blog.



> hello i'm nice i'm such a nice guy i do not understand why girls don't like me it must be because i'm too nice yes that is definitely it there couldn't possibly be another reason oh man maybe i should just become an ******* to stop myself being friendzoned i'm so nice i'm sick of all these ****ing *****es choosing *******s over me they're so shallow the stupid *****s


+++++++1


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Auron said:


> from OP's tumblr blog.
> +++++++1


Is it hard to believe that a nice guy could start out as genuinely nice but then become increasingly frustrated and bitter over time because of their experiences? It's human nature to want to be liked by others. Where are all of these nice guys who have remained nice after facing lots of rejection by women and seeing little success with them?


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## Nexus777 (Dec 1, 2012)

You can be nice, but you still need to be strong (more mentally than physical)


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## Ricebunnyx3 (Sep 1, 2010)

doomed said:


> nope. I haven't read this topic a thousand times before.


omg sorry guys didnt know this was a played out topic. My bad.


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## Ricebunnyx3 (Sep 1, 2010)

Idk what this thread has turned into...and it's not what I expected when I posted it...
Now I'm scared to even read the replies.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Ricebunnyx3 said:


> Idk what this thread has turned into...and it's not what I expected when I posted it...
> Now I'm scared to even read the replies.


Basically they want to string you up.

Just kiddding, I didn't read either. Too many pages.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

phoenixwright said:


> Is it hard to believe that a nice guy could start out as genuinely nice but then become increasingly frustrated and bitter over time because of their experiences? It's human nature to want to be liked by others. Where are all of these nice guys who have remained nice after facing lots of rejection by women and seeing little success with them?


Well a lot of the guys who complain about being too nice, they blame the women for not being attracted to them. Attraction is a fickle thing, and they can't blame someone for not wanting to screw them. And they put down women saying that we just like douchebags since we don't like them. You can't continue to claim to be nice when you're placing the blame for all your misfortunes on others. I've gotten rejected by people, but that's why you move on. Sure everyone wants to be liked, but dating is a very hard game, and if they're getting bitter that much over it, well then that's just their fault. My dad was nice, my uncle's nice, my friends' bfs are nice, I've met a lot of genuinely kind guys that had gfs. So it's possible, but they were able to just be patient and not get bitter over a few rejections is all. I'm making it sound simple, but it really isn't hard to not bitter when you're alright with yourself.

(general "yous" btw, I'm not directing this at you, pheonixwright)


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## Isabelle50 (Nov 19, 2012)

> Yes, flirting with a girl can end up with you reported to the authorities. Even if it's not the police (which it can be if a girl sends the police records of your communication or has a reputation and witnesses), it can also be a private authority such as a landlord, employer, club owner, etc.
> 
> Heck, it's also easy to end up in fights with other men even in the moment who want to play the white knight role, or you can end up with a flock of women who tell you to go away in trying to stand up for their own.


I think you are seriously, _seriously_ exaggerating the risks of flirting. Technically you're not supposed to be flirting in the workplace at all so if you're not great at reading signals best to avoid that venue entirely.

Its really not the minefield you think, the rules surrounding flirting are very, very simple. Back off if asked. Frankly, I think you're just blaming women in general (and feminism specifically) for your problems instead of taking responsibility for them.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

^I suppose his idea of flirting involves a dick in some way, lol, from the sounds of it. But seriously, he basically blames all modern problems on feminism, as if society has never had issues before. You can't talk to him about it, he just repeats the same stuff without actually addressing what you said.


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## Isabelle50 (Nov 19, 2012)

Seriously, his consequences of flirting sound more like consequences of rape. I should probably just let it go, whenever Daktoria gets on about women and feminism the thread gets dragged down the rabbit hole.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

It really does, I mean this thread was bound to go into a bad direction since there's a lot of people who get defensive about what is under the umbrella of "nice guys" but if someone starts with him about feminism it'll get locked, like his thread did. You can't really debate logically with someone that says flirting will get you arrested, anyway.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm guessing by suggesting that flirting can get you arrested or whatever, he was probably referring to flirting in the workplace. Rules can often be very strict in the workplace. Just flirting with a girl can probably lead to some sort of disciplinary action in the workplace. This is why I do not do it. Even though I did think about trying to get with the cute admin girl at work. It's better to not **** where you eat. The last thing I would need is for all the admin girls in the front to know about every single detail about me (my penis size, how good I am in bed, etc.) Pretty much all women talk about this stuff with their friends. You don't want them to be talking about that stuff with your office mates.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

The only time flirting is bad is when the other person doesn't want to be flirted with. But even then, you can't get arrested. Perhaps reprimanded, in the case of the workplace, but not arrested. But yeah, that's getting off-topic onto some silly topic. Like, getting arrested? Not worth veering off for, haha.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

At work I had asked the cute admin girl if she'd like to join me at this coffee/tea/donut shop at our work building and she declined, citing that she already had tea (I took that as a sign that she is not interested and/or has a boyfriend. My logical reasoning behind that even if the girl had tea with her, she'd still go to that shop if she was interested in the guy. But rymo and co. insisted I didn't give up then). Then rymo and co. suggested that I "build attraction" by chatting up and flirting with her. If I had followed their advice, I could have been slapped with a disciplinary action, including termination, this is why I didn't risk it. They're too strict in the workplace with this kind of stuff. I work in HR so they are especially anal about this stuff where I work.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

Well it's good to not risk that with someone you don't know well yet. With work it definitely is a ton more sensitive. But you wouldn't be arrested.

But yeah, I love how I said I wouldn't bite the bait of what Daktoria said, when by saying that I totally did.


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## Josefz27 (Oct 26, 2012)

Not sure, when I am "not nice," I'm usually just joking around somewhat.


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## Durzo (Jun 4, 2011)

Is anybody really nice? People perform nice acts for sure, but truly nice? I doubt it. Anybody claiming to be nice is only nice in comparison to the people who do not perform nice acts, but in reality its impossible to be truly nice to the core.

There is no point in asking anybody this question as the answer is always 100% no. Anybody saying yes is deluded and/or does not understand that being truly nice is unachievable. Appearing nice is achievable.


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## Lottoman (Nov 9, 2010)

identitycrisis said:


> What I can't stand is that neither side of any argument like this is willing to _discuss_, it's all about banging your fist on the table and demanding that your opinion is more valid, that you know how the world works and everyone else is just plain wrong.
> 
> The problem isn't with "Nice Guys." The problem isn't with feminists, friend zones, or flirting strategies. The problem seems to be that we've all collectively forgotten how to communicate with each other. That, or we never learned. It's like we're all arguing about what size of band-aid to apply to a gunshot wound, or trying to figure out who to blame for the shot while the victim is laying there bleeding out.
> 
> ...


Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! Easily one of the best posts on this site.


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## Baiken (Sep 11, 2012)

Durzo said:


> Is anybody really nice? People perform nice acts for sure, but truly nice? I doubt it. Anybody claiming to be nice is only nice in comparison to the people who do not perform nice acts, but in reality its impossible to be truly nice to the core.
> 
> There is no point in asking anybody this question as the answer is always 100% no. Anybody saying yes is deluded and/or does not understand that being truly nice is unachievable. Appearing nice is achievable.


"being nice" is subjective you blockhead.


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