# recovery for SA and GAD?



## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

I have had this disability from roughly the age of 15-16 (possibly younger-I can't even remember anymore). I am now 43. It is still the same. Some phyisiological evidence of this is that still, to this day, my lowest pulse rate at complete rest is 120 beats a minute.
I have given an honest effort to every therapy, program and pretty much every medication known. I am not sure--some people with a mild form of social anxiety or general anxiety disorder may recover. I don't now.

In my experience, for many, or most of us -this is life-long. It is like 
people who have lost an arm or leg. We simply are not going to grow new ones.

Someday, in the future science may accomplish a cure, but I'm not holding my breath. The best I can do is live with this disability as best I can.

IMO, if you've had serious SA for a long time, you can live the healthiest lifestyle imaginable--it doesn't work either.
I was a health nut, in the gym every day or second day, eating a "super healthy diet"
I didn't touch coffee, alcohol, cigarettes or anything unhealthy. For years.
I am educated and considered attractive. Has ANY of this fixed my SA? or given me the "magical" quiet, calm self esteem / confidence?
No. Nothing has. I know there is one thing that does help-being in a caring, loving relationship. 
But for those with serious SA, this isn't the most likely prospect-especially for we men with this. (Except for sheer dumb luck).
After having had it this long, I have given up, and just live with it. It's slightly less frustrating just coming to accept it, instead of fighting it for the rest of my life
Now I just drink it away (half-buzzed) when I have to get something "social" done. Half a social -life is probably better than none.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Why is this in triumphs? You sound bummed

What therapy did you do, and for how long? Can you describe exactly what you did?

What did your therapists diagnose you with? If it was GAD and SA together, did they try to treat them together? How much time did they spend on each? How did the therapy terminate?


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## theskyisfalling (Apr 28, 2008)

bender,
i am 37 and also have done everything humanely possible to fix myself and nothing has worked to the point where i can have a normal life.some people can not be helped. it is like being born blind. there is no cure so you will never see until there is one. i liked your post. it seems you have been through alot of the same stuff as me.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Can I ask - when you are in a social situation - what is your main fear? Is it humiliation / rejection? Do you have fears of a physical attack or strong verbal abuse / attack? What is your greatest feared event? When you look at others, what is it you feel they will do to you?


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> Why is this in triumphs? You sound bummed
> 
> What therapy did you do, and for how long? Can you describe exactly what you did?
> 
> . If it was GAD and SA together, did they try to treat them together? How much time did they spend on each? How did the therapy terminate?


It's in triumphs because I am a guy that has had none, after just under 30 years with these problems,
and thought it may be an idea to have a bit of balance in this thread. Unless you think I should start a "Post if you've discovered there's no hope for a cure" thread.
Originally diagnosed with hopeless (their words-doctors and nurses) paranoid scizophrenia. Then GAD , SA and I've had other labels. 20 years of continuous various therapies including CBT. How did it terminate?--I finally quit believing any of it would work after it hadn't done a single thing to help after 20+ years. (And I DID believe for about the first fifteen years there must be a "cure") You can only kick a dead horse so long before you realize it's not going to get up.
And thanks "TheSkyIsFalling"--- the younger people on this board, well it probably scares the crap out of them that they may have something incurable and simply can't/won't accept that idea.

What fear(s) do I have in social situations? None if I'm drinking beer.
If sober,.... you name it (well actually it's more nebulous that that, it's just overall paralyzing fear, period)

Ross, I can see where you are going--you are going to try to prove to me that I did something wrong or I had the wrong therapy or to keep looking, so as to say AHA!"eureka"! that's why you're not "cured". You could look for the rest of time, my friend. I'm too tired to look forever-and probably end up an old man on his deathbed still looking.
I'll just drink beer and at least enjoy a small part of my life and maybe end up in another relationship made possible by booze. (My last one lasted years almost got married, and it was not ended by booze at all. It was ended by her career.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

You didnt mention - who diagnosed you, and what with? Did they treat them together or separately?

How long did you work with a CBT therapist for, and EXACTLY what did s/he do with you?

Also, which meds did you try alongside it?

One last question - how old are you now?


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Hey, that's not bad "the_outsider" that makes more sense, to me anyway.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

It seems you dont want to answer the questions, so I will say what I was headed towards anyway.

CBT is known in some circumstances to fail due to deeper emotional issues that conflict with the therapeutic relationship. That is - the charcter traits that are deeply buried in the individual actually act a s barrier to therapy, even if the person themself wants to get better. In the case of these issues, SCHEMA THERAPY is considered to be the treatment of choice - ESPECIALLY IF THE PERSON HAS TRIED AND FAILED WITH CBT.

If you truly have been in CBT for a good 6 months, applied the cognitive work and CONSISTENTLY APPLIED structured behvioural experiments (not just random exposure), and experienced NO CHANGE AT ALL - then Schema would be highly recommended to you.

Also be aware of the 3 coping styles: *SURRENDER* ("its just how I am - I will be like this forever"); *AVOIDANCE*: (keeps away from any situation that will trigger the feelings); *OVERCOMPENSATION* (acts in the opposite way to how they feel).

If you go  HERE  you can look up the main coping styles. If you feel dependent on others for a sense of love then SURRENDER may be one of your coping styles.

I have a hunch I am making you angry with this post, because having someone say there is hope possibly makes you look into a painful place - trying again and potentially failing - that you do not want to go. All I am trying to do with this post is suggest another possible direction, if you should feel such a desire.


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## OKdOut (Feb 22, 2008)

bender3008 said:


> You could look for the rest of time, my friend. I'm too tired to look forever-and probably end up an old man on his deathbed still looking.


I agree with you.

Accepting our limits is not a sign of failure, it is the reason why our personal triumphs have meaning.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Bender

Just to say - I have suffered from the age of 10 until 30 - 20 years, like you.

Finally now I feel the final stages of recovery, having beaten anxiety and depression this year. Just the personality elements to iron out with the schema.

If you prefer to live with it, then that is of course your choice. The idea that something that recognises your predicament may be out there would niggle at me though. But thats just me. I wouldnt want to wait for that neural implant like you. I wish you hadnt avoided my question about your CBT experience, not that you are required to answer. But its something that could help - thats just my view.

Do you realise that GAD is different to SAD?

So is choosing to live with it the triumph?


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Ross, you don't make me upset or angry at all. I'm not like that, and I do listen. I respect your intellect. Really. And I'm not close-minded about what you have to say either. I just think one or more of us with one of these disorders should have become (a) neuro-surgeon(s) and started working on this quite a while ago. Because that's where I believe the only final answer lies.
I have come to the conclusion that all these so-called therapies and medications are "band-aid"s and won't ever truly get rid of the disorders-they may offer minor improvements if you are constantly working at them --to the point of utter fatigue..
But, they won't truly re-wire how your brain worksI don't believe they'll ever get rid of the "startle" response or the panic/adrenaline response--just barely keep a lid on it --well enough to at least talk publicly to strangers, maybe..at their best.
--any questions I haven't properly answered (check both posts, I edited them) re-ask them in point form and I'll answer them-no problem.
thanks Ross
Lance


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

I think that therapies can improve functioning and pain hugely. Even in severe GAD and SAD, anxiety can be brought to a level where you would have friends, you could go to supermarkets and so on. If recovery means becoming super-charismatic, then I agree, therapies probably wont do that. But I feel that its possible that you can reach a level of normal functioning that is not so painful for you.

I suppose my problem is I get wound up when I see someone get taken out by these things. Im like a damn boxing coach constantly sitting there going "you CAN ****ing beat this guy!!". So forgive the slightly belligerent tone.

I gues maybe Im under the misguided notion that if I fire you up, without the ability to bop me on the nose, all that pent up energy might carry you forward a bit 

Heh. Maybe I wont write a book on motivational psychology.

But seriously, I think schema is well worth a look for you. I recently got chucked into the 'dysthymia' bin by a therapist because she wasnt good enough to help me. I instantly found a new, private therapist who had me feeling better in 3 months. Therapy failures take the desire to try out of you, for real. After 20 years of that I can well understand that.

Its just the bulldog in me not wanting to ever let anyone give up.

Ross


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

I absolutely appreciate your striving intelligently for some solutions to this problem.
I have found a (sometimes) volatile one that has done me more good than harm. Simple beer. I am a completely different guy on beer. Now I haven't worked out exactly how it is increasing dopamine levels or changing the levels of certain neuro-tranmitters or acting as an agonist or protangonist
on specific receptors in my particular brain,.... the transmitters, receptors or pathways, all I can tell you is I go from the shyist, most fearful guy in the room to Mr. Outgoing, seemingly able to be outgoing, speak freely and in an interesting manner to others. This isn't just an alcohol induced fantasy...people actually do call me the next day to get together. But only when they've met me high on beer. So (?) Maybe beer was given to us for a reason LOL.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

In all honesty, this makes me believe even more that you have a schema at the root of your problems. Sorry for a long reply.

Alcohol dampens the part of the brain that deals with emotional inhibition - closely linked to adrenal arousal. The terms get confusing - adrenal arousal is what leads to your emotional inhibition. This process of excitation (arousal) and inhibition (calming) would have more to do with the neurotransmitters glutamate and GABA - indeed, benzos work on the GABA pathways, inhibiting the neurons responsible for the AROUSAL or fear ones. Alcohol accomplishes a similar job, inhibiting the arousal response. For this reason I feel that you need to find a way to more permanently inhibit this arousal response. If you have permanently active schemas, then your background arousal will be very high, sometimes even when alone. This means that even small inputs will bump you into ‘emergency’ more easily.

One schema that may well apply to you is "emotional inhibition" - a schema which restricts the person from being able to normally express their feelings and emotions. You may feel it is wrong for you to do this - like an internal standard - that you must be punished for speaking up. This may be internalized at a 'gut' level - buried outside of consciousness. You may have a Mistrust and Abuse Schema where you expect others to abuse, humiliate or attack you and so you inhibit yourself from precipitating an attack with your words (incidentally, this schema can interfere with therapy by making the person mistrust, test and otherwise not open up to the therapist). You may have a Vulnerability schema which makes you feel immensely fearful of general disaster or sudden death / injury. You may have a Subjugation schema which makes you feel that other people must be pleased, or kept happy, for fear of their becoming angry or violent - punishing you. This schema is especially relevant in therapy because an overbearing therapist will remind the person of the subjugating agent that caused the schema in the first place. Lastly you may have a Defectiveness and Shame schema, with shame being the active emotion which prevents you from expressing yourself. There are similarities in these chemas, but what is different is the source and consequence associated with each of the social settings.

As mentioned, these are things that exist out of consciousness. They are deeper than the core beliefs of CBT - one stage deeper in fact because they are generally linked with early childhood experiences, sometimes even before you were able to speak. The opposites of these chemas may feel utterly alien to you. When I started to learn about my schemas, is felt like someone had tilted the world on its axis. It was like that light switch experience. Partly the ‘seeing it’ effect that you mentioned above, but WAYYY weirder than that.

In addition, you may never have internalized the ability to self-soothe - this is what is learned when a child is held and comforted, understood, empathized with, listened to and given appropriate guidance for dealing with stress and problems. The child is then able to learn from these early experiences - internalizing the thought, feeling and image of being held and so producing the soothing response in the future. If you never learned this soothing response, you will remain permanently aroused, even when alone.

Compassion based CBT and Compassionate Imagery / Schema Imagery all aim to install this ability in the individual. It is the psychological basis for the inhibitory effects on the arousal systems. The psychological input is the stimulus for the action of the soothing neurochemicals. As soothing increases, background arousal reduces. Awareness and Behavioral pattern breaking begin to weaken the effect of the schema in social situations. With time and repetition the schema is defeated and a new schema is overwritten. The ability to self soothe becomes permanent. 

These are known as the "third wave of CBT" and to a sad extent, are widely unknown by many current practicing therapists. Schema Therapy must be undertaken with a qualified and experienced therapist.

Lastly I have my own theory about the action of antidepressants in some people. If the person has on the one hand never learned to self soothe, they may also have never learned how to feel good. At first it is simply the psychological inability to prime the soothing / happiness circuits of the brain. Starved of stimulation, the synapses which respond to and produce 'feel good' chemicals - be they serotonin or whatever - are under 'potentiated' (weaker), and the ones for adrenaline and arousal chemicals are made much stronger in the presence of psychological stressors. I believe that in these individuals, the combination of therapy and drugs together does two things. ONE it gives the person the necessary PSYHCOLOGICAL stimuli to 'ask' the appropriate neurons to begin to grow in strength. TWO it takes the limited production of these chemicals and gives them more muscle - preventing their reuptake and letting them do the work they are intended to do, thus aiding the strengthening process. It is very commonly found that meds PLUS therapy is more powerful than either alone, and i belive this is directly due to neural re-potentiation and strengthening. The longer its been 'weak' - the longer it takes to build up the good ones, and take down the bad ones. Two activites at once. 

I believe quite strongly that if you found the best possible antidepressant for you, and underwent schema therapy ( a much more emotions focused experience with only one quarter CBT methods) that you would experience significant reduction of your arousal, similar - eventually - to that you experience with alcohol. It may well take time to get this far, especially given the time that you have been carrying these things around. But I truly believe that the change can happen for you.

There ya go - my brain dump.

Ross


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

LOl I feel weakened after that one. I think I brain dumped a bit hard.

Glad its useful


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

ops **opens window**


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Well, quite honestly Ross, I find all your mental gymnastics and brain dumps very interesting, even fascinating at times.. But _why_ should I waste the last relatively younger years of my life with all this when I can just drink beer? It does the same thing (to me) as you're suggesting.
If I were to attempt (and even succeed) in somehow making the (still theoretical) formulation of therapy that you've presented actually help me,
I'd probably be over 50+ years old by then. Beer works now.
I don't want to be "cured" (debatable) just in time to get a 70 year old girlfriend, be with her for two years and then croak, saying YAY! on my deathbed...I got over SAD without beer. after spending 45+ years trying.
A pretty hollow victory I'd say.


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## theskyisfalling (Apr 28, 2008)

bender, i'm with you on this one. when i was younger i beleived everything would be o.k. eventually. i had friends. i was a very good athlete etc.. but fighting a losing battle with this, after a while you realize you can't fight forever. while all my friends were getting ahead i was focusing 100% of my time on fixing myself including every med. under the sun, positive thinking, e.c.t. therapy. all of these things made me actually get worse. i am 37 and i know that the fight is over. i also have flat feet and hypoglycemia, along with serious food allergies. i believe alot of people can beat whatever problems they might have but there are also those that won't. but i do respect Ross very much for helping the poeple that can be helped on this site. your effort is appreciated.


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

theskyisfalling said:


> bender, i'm with you on this one. when i was younger i beleived everything would be o.k. eventually. i had friends. i was a very good athlete etc.. but fighting a losing battle with this, after a while you realize you can't fight forever. while all my friends were getting ahead i was focusing 100% of my time on fixing myself including every med. under the sun, positive thinking, e.c.t. therapy. all of these things made me actually get worse. i am 37 and i know that the fight is over. i also have flat feet and hypoglycemia, along with serious food allergies. i believe alot of people can beat whatever problems they might have but there are also those that won't. but i do respect Ross very much for helping the poeple that can be helped on this site. your effort is appreciated.


Hi my friend--- Theskyisfalling, yes, Ross may have something for the younger people with mild to moderate anxiety problems. check the preceding post. If you have yahoo messenger (or you can use the web based version-webmessenger) 
I'm [email protected]


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## theskyisfalling (Apr 28, 2008)

hey bender i sent you an email but i dont think it got there. i suck at making my way around the computer so if you would like to email me i'm at [email protected] or [email protected]


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Bender

These therapies work for severe patients. See the many peer reviewed studies for the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE (in other words - the real world evidence found under clinicial trial conditions) on the topic. Its sad that you feel this way, but unfortunately I cant help but feel your statement is not based on fact - but more your own predicament. These therapies work every day for even severe patients around the world. If you have simply had enough and do not want to try anything else - then I respect that. But your comments about it being only theoretical - as if to suggest that this negates the resounding success it has, and implying that these things cannot be cured - those are the ones that are inspired by the way you feel - and not the evidence on the matter. Until neuroscience mathematically maps human consciousness (which is being worked on), none of these theories can be proven outright in the way that say, the 1st law of thermodynamics can. However - this does not negate the fact that THEY WORK.

Schema is considered the ONLY effective therapy for some of the most DIFFICULT TO TREAT of psychological problems - incuding Borderline and also Narcisstic Personality Disorder. Borderline patients - and I am sorry to be rude - have symptoms FAR WORSE than what you are experiencing and can be cured through schema therapy. Its the only therapy that has had any significant success in this area and it beats even medications in its effectiveness. Until schema was developed, Borderline was mainly _considered untreatable_. * These (extreme) patients take between 1 and 3 years to treat. Less severe disorders are significantly shorter. Did you say you are 43? That would put you as younger than 50 by the time a significant change is seen. I also have case studies of people in their 40's and 50's of people that have been through YEARS of unsuccessful therapy* having successes with this approach. I cant help but feel that it is your _quite understandable and valid _sense of hopelessness - and not the empirical, internationally published and *peer reviewed *facts of the therapy - that your words are based on. Feeling hopeless is not proof that you are - but giving in totally is of course the one *sure* way of staying where you are. Schema is also the therapy recommended IN THE CASE THAT CBT is not able to produce lasting change.

One example of how schemas can cause therapy to fail. This is MY experience, but one that is so common that it lead to a major part of how schema works. I have a subjugation and emotional deprivation schema. I believe that others are controlling, and I respond to controlling authority figures initially becoming withdrawn and ashamed, and then becoming passive aggressive, One of my recent therapists had a very dominant and unempathic style, which caused me first to withdraw and stop talking openyl about my problems. Then as I felt increasingly unlistened to, I became passive aggressive and silent. Through Emotional Deprivation, I have internalised the idea that my problems are not to be talked about - that I am not listened to when I talk about my feelings. I was angry at the therapist. Eventually it all came out in a big angry blob. She handled it badly. I felt worse and worse and I terminated. At this point I could have said "all therapy is worthless" - unless I had known what it was about my emotional history that caused that ineffetive interaction. Schema is designed PRECISELY to overcome these issues in therapy. It is as much about HUMAN INTERACTION and the IMPORTANCE OF THE THERAPY RELATIONSHIP as it is about THEORY.

I am sorry you feel you must drink in order to be socially ok. I hope that the rest of your life is happier, really I do. But if you get that girlfriend soon through using beer, will she then be happy with your need to constantly be drunk to talk to her? Not saying that you are - but is alcoholism an acceptable alternative to SA to you?

I can see this discussion is not going to bear any fruit and I dont want to irritate you further. Just glad that someone round here truly appreciates the artisitic depth of Futurama ...


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Ross where can I find a schema therapist if cbt and medication isnt enough? I actually tried the 212-492-1706 Jeffery Young but is out of service by any chance do you know where I can find onr schema therapist?


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

www.schematherapy.com

Should be enough info in there!!

Good luck


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## raymac_6262 (Dec 31, 2007)

Ross, why aren't you a psychiatrist?


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Are you kidding? And have to deal with people like me on a daily basis???


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

deleted by poster


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Lol ... whatever.

Later

Ross


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Ross, there are two of us that have been through things you can't even imagine. Your schema therapy is useless. It is puny and weak
except for minor little sa problems.

Have you ever heard of spontaneous cumbustion?
It's real.
A number of people (I'll give you witnesses) that saw me start shaking, fall to my knees screaming in pain and fear, and my hands
light on fire , then travelling up my arms. At age 18. Pray tell me, Mr. Eloquent speaker, how your Schema therapy would stop that? -when you could see it in broad daylight with your own eyes? I will give you sworn statements-that you can contact. One woman fainted. Do you want to see the scars? Schema , my ***, we're fighting evil. From beyond. Maybe you 
don't have to. You can be grateful.

Now, to put this in perspective, why SA happens to certain people is:
1-, they are intelligent-usually highly intelligent
2-they are creative
3-they are sensitive-meaning they actually feel things on an emotional level about things going on around them.
4 because of the preceeding three traits, they are open to being attacked by - yep you are going to think this sounds strange - Evil.
And Evil using evil-ALWAYS THE STUPID TYPE (but physically bigger OR somehow culturally "higher up in the pecking order) pawns- people to attack, reject, bully, beat up, ridicule and attempt to destroy us. That is ALWAYS what creates SA and GAD -trauma
inflicted by others. Maybe, sometimes unwittingly, but usually on purpose by mean spirited people.
It was Them. We didn't do this to ourselves. The blame rests with them. Period. Forever.
You're a babe in the woods.
Ja, you should be a psychiatrist. Niles or Frasier Crane. HAH. That was the perfect portrayal of psychiatrists. Idiots trying to figure themselves out.

Is there a real "cure" to SAD or GAD once you've been repeatedly victimized by "something" or by others? 
No. 
not yet.
Don't spend any money on Schema.
HAH Even the name, "Schema" lol - it's a schema to get your money.

btw-Ross, thanks, I knew you were easily smart enough to get the depth of Futurama - the most intelligently written comedy show (ever) for television. Half the writers had advanced math and physics degrees. The most overqualified writers for TV--- in history.
I'm pretty sure that Stephen Hawking is a consultant.
Even though no one EVER wants to explain artificial gravity or sound in outer space. EVER. In any show. -artificial gravity is not possible-unless you use centrifugal force as a substitute to produce it. so all these shows where everyone is planted on the floor and there is an "up" and left and right- kinda makes all these space westerns pretty stupid. Same with everyone flying past the speed of light-what about the relationship to time and the length of the object/(spacecraft), relative to the direction of motion as it approaches the speed of light? and the amount of energy needed to push a physical object to the speed of light is infinite (Infinity) in otherwords impossible.
Anyone should know all this by the age of twelve.
But it's fun to dream.
Oh well, this IS a cartoon. It's just for fun.
Bender's Big Score is out and the next DVD movie should be pretty soon

Sorry if I made any typos--- I just finished off my seventeenth beer, after helping a neighbor with a roofing job.


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

the_outsider said:


> i wonder if someone born of severely socially anxious parents butwho was raised somehow with little to no contact with other humans - only enough that was essential for their survival, i'm thinking like in some kind of control room in which the child could be humanely treated, educated, and observed from the outside without having any observation of, and only a miniscule amount of interaction with, the outside world- i wonder if this person, if released into the normal world upon becoming an adult, would be able to suffer from social anxiety disorder?


Personally, I can obviously only theorize, but I would think they would become "truly" human. But thrust into a bizarre, weird, mostly evil "culture" they would recoil. If they were physically bigger than anyone else and could not be threatened physically by others,
they may be able to somewhat assimilate. But it wouldn't be pretty. Unless you had a huge group of these truly human people thrust upon this culture at once-they'd take over-and turn this culture around to be humane and sane (that'd be the day)

All I am saying is NO, it's not hereditary, SA is permanently imposed on us by others in (usually) our early teen years


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

All I can say is, in all honesty, I am the only one in my family to have this--not even going back generations -I thought of that.

I asked about their upbringing and teen years-they were all popular. So obviously, they didn't develop SA. 

It comes from rejection/humiliation/being laughed at (for no reason) and generally evil people taking advantage of you.


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Well, I can can only speak for myself, in relation to my family.
Which certainly would (in my case ) disprove any hereditary link.
It's how you were treated by others


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Hey.
The_Outsider.
I am the most unassuming, quiet guy. Anyone can contact me so we we can talk.
The only reason I came down on Ross, is because I could see a cult starting with the schema ****.

Dr. Jeffrey Young just stole all this from Ron Hubbard and twisted a few words and updated it.

Hey, Dianetics was legitimate.

The original text was scientific, and pretty much identical to schema, only way more in depth and better (schema is a really chintzy version of dianetics) -really, read it.

But: you have to be careful ROSS. Nothing is a cure-all.
Look where that led when someone became a preacher of it. --Not to "dis" Dianetics for a minute-read the book.. It started out with legitimate science....then...

Just don't start another phoney church over it , get a ship and start calling yourself Commadore. ok?

Ross should read it it. He'd be shocked! it's the same stuff as he's preaching. Schema-It was done in the 50's. been there, done that. It's nothing new. It's a regurgitated Dianetics - prove me wrong Ross! Because I can prove it's virtually identical.
Your doctor, whoever came up up with "schema"
musta read a lot of Dianetics and then re-branded it for You.
Ross \

'Cause Ross sounds smart and he probably is (well I know he is). but I can see a schema cult starting, and in the USA I am sure schema "therapy" costs $.

Ask Ross if he's going through the training to be a Schema therapist.

Hey, it's ok he may be a true believer and maybe it helped him. But he's in for an unpleasant surprise if he thinks he's going to fix everyone's SA with schema therapy. 
That's why I am trying to stop a cult from forming. We are all very vulnerable people---
I say, don't listen to me if you don't want to, and don't follow ANYONE. 
Ross is recruiting. 
Anyway, I'm on my nineteeth beer (for real) and gonna go listen to music
anyway, have fun and watch this and **** everything


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

> Ross, there are two of us that have been through things you can't even imagine. Your schema therapy is useless. It is puny and weak
> except for minor little sa problems.
> 
> Have you ever heard of spontaneous cumbustion?
> ...


:squeeze

love ya bender

Im sorry to hear you suffered spontaneous combustion when you were 18, and have evil people use evil on you. That must suck. The 'something' you refer to - is it spiritual? How might such a thing have been invited into your life? Was it inside you when you burst into flames?

I'm an engineer by trade, not much time to fit becoming a schema therapist in really. Plus I'm crap at anything practical - building a church would take years. I have bought 400 litres of Gatorade and 200 mg of cyanide however, for the 'end plan'. One step at a time.

Ross


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

you think that's funny don't you.
Like I'm making it up or something you'd only see in a horror movie.
Welcome to my Nightmare, mr.intellectual.
It's real.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Can you explain how bursting into flames is connected to your SA and GAD?

Also what is the evil that people are using on you? Is it planned, or just spontaneous (pardon the pun)?


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> Can you explain how bursting into flames is connected to your SA and GAD?


Actually I could but it would take many pages.

Hi! I was just set on fire by satanic demons yesterday. Nice to to meet you. How are you doing?
(big smile). Oh yeah, I had a million things to tell girls about me.

I suppose it might have have actually helped my situation if I had have been on fire at the time 
I was trying to say, "Hi" to girls, 
but it was terrifying and incredibly painful.

I guess they would say "Heloooo, do you realize you're on fire?

To that I could have responded "No.---It's all in your mind.
Here. Take these pills, and if you still see me on fire,
call me in six weeks
and we'll adjust your medication accordingly."...etc..

You can phone me or visa-versa or write me at
[email protected].

I'm not gonna get into it all here.
I think the best would be for you to actually hear my voice and I can put my sister on the line too. She saw more unbelievable stuff happen to me than anyone should ever have to.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

> Actually I could but it would take many pages.
> 
> Hi! I just was set on fire by satanic demons yesterday. Nice to to meet you. How are you doing?(big smile).
> 
> ...


Thank you for the offer, but right now I dont want to talk to someone who is on their "19th beer" as you said above, and feeling angry.

Have any of your doctors ever suggested that you might be schizophrenic, schizoptypal, delusional or paranoid personality? Did you ever tell them about the evil theory, or just tell them you felt you had anxiety symtpoms for fear they would say you were psychotic? Have you tried any of the neuroleptics? Olanzapine is meant to be good.

Alternatively, have you consulted the church? If you burst into flames because of satanic demons, I would want to talk to a priest pretty quickly.


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

You should be a psychiatrist.
Because they can't believe in reality either.
You live in _your_ fantasy world of "there's no such thing, it can't be real." 
Give them some more drugs.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

> You should be a psychiatrist.
> Because they can't believe in reality either.
> You live in your fantasy world of "there's no such thing, it can't be real."
> Give them some more drugs.


Does that mean that some of them did suggest you might be psychotic, but you felt you had SA instead?


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Ross, if you can't believe there actually is something going on beyond 3 dimensions (I never did before this, I was an athiest), I can't explain this to you and you could could never understand it. I wish it could happen to you just for one day. No more. Just so you knew.
You really don't want to talk to people that saw these things happen , do you


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

> Ross, if you can't believe there actually is something going on beyond 3 dimensions (I never did before this, I was an athiest), I can't explain this to you and you could could never understand it. I wish it could happen to you just for one day. No more. Just so you knew.
> You really don't want to talk to people that saw these things happen , do you


If you saw the collection of books on demonology and exorcism on my bookshelf, you might think twice about what my beliefs are.

If you are 100% convinced that this is demoniacal intervention, have you been to a church? Have you spoke to a catholic priest? Are there strange phenomena in your house? You may like to look up the words "infestation", "obsession" and "possession" on the web, and see if any of it applies to you. These are stages of demoniacal intervention.

You said you are 43, and the first instance of demoniacal activity happened at 18. Why have you lived with it for so long? Was that the only event?


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

This is why we should talk off the board. It started at 15-16 My sister (who is a cynical lawyer, BTW) will back up
anything i tell you. She saw it too.
Yes I had to go that route, believe me, as an athiest, that was pretty hard to start realizing "Holy ****" this is REALLY happening---because, as long as I thought it WAS a problem with my brain, that could be dealt with. It was sheer terror to realize it was REALLY happening. Other people were seeing it too.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

> This is why we should talk off the board. It started at 15-16 My sister (who is a cynical lawyer, BTW) will back up
> anything i tell you. She saw it too.
> Yes I had to go that route, believe me, as an athiest, that was pretty hard to start realizing "Holy ****" this is REALLY happening---because, as long as I thought it WAS a problem with my brain, that could be dealt with. It was sheer terror to realize it was REALLY happening. Other people were seeing it too.


What was the response of the church at the time? I want this conversation on the board because it is central to your argument about therapy - you are saying that therapy cannot help you. I would be inclined to agree if you are possessed - and so this fits the conversation.

Im sure anyone following this thread wuld be very interested to know too, if it is a reality that can affect any one of us. I am only interested in what the church did, what steps it took.


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

I am not "possessed" nor ever have been.
Yes these "things"/ beings/ whatever you want to call them
were telepathic and invaded house and my life and followed me for years everywhere I went. The church did end up being the only place anyone could believe this was happening. (Evangelical/Pentecostal) But they had few answers. Sure they did their rituals and probably felt good about themselves I guess for doing them, It didn't do anything.
I fought on alone for years in a state of being between two worlds. Yes, I can hear the gears churning in your head , thinking how this was/must be psychotic. It wasn't. It WAS real. I'm as sane as anyone. I think that was the one thing that saved me from disaster and death. My brain is logical.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

bender3008 said:


> Iam not "possesed" nor ever have been.
> Yes these "things"/ beings/ whatever you want to call them
> were thelepathic and invaded house and my life and followed me for years everywhere I went. The church did end up being the only place anyone could believe this was happening. (Evangelical/Pentecostal) But they had few answers. Sure they did their rituals and probably felt good about themselves I guess for doing them, It didn't do anything.
> I fought on alone for years in a state of being between two worlds. Yes, I can hear the gears churning in your head , thinking how this was/must be psychotic. It wasn't. It WAS real. I'm as sane as anyone. I think that was the one thing that saved me from disaster and death. My brain is logical.


OK thanks bender

Only thing that springs to mind is that the average age of onset of schizophrenia in 3/4 of cases is 16-25, and you said you were 15-16 when it all started. Feelings of telepathic control are a common symptom. Its an organic disorder that can occur in otherwise healhty families.

Jesuit / Catholic priests are known as the 'experts' in this field, just as a word of advice. EDIT: The demon field, I mean.

Thanks for putting up with me


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Oh by the way, of course this all happened during the years people are falling in love, having relationships and getting married. I was given a different burden. To fight on and on in this weird "spiritual" world I never asked for. 
I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Which is kinda stupid to say in a way, because I have no earthly enemies.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

bender3008 said:


> Oh by the way, of course this all happened during the years people are falling in love, having relationships and getting married. I was given a different burden. To fight on and on in this weird "spiritual" world I never asked for.
> I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Which is kinda stupid to say in a way, because I have no earthly enemies.


:squeeze


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Ross. all I can tell you, from one intellectual to another is.
IT WAS REAL. I wished with all my mind it wasn't, or had not have been-
but-- I've seen things that no one else has yet-I'm not an athiest anymore.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

bender3008 said:


> Ross. all I can tell you, from one intellectual to another is.
> IT WAS REAL. I wished with all my mind it wasn't, or had not not have been-
> but I've seen things that no one else has yet-I'm not an athiest anymore.


I am also religious and I have my beliefs about good and evil too.

Good luck dude

Ross


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## bender3008 (Jan 17, 2008)

Just one last addendum:
This probably sounds to some as the ravings of a drug addict. I have never done "street" drugs--- not then.... to now. Never. My brother was a heroin addict for years and always been super successful in this life, and married for 16 years etc... So, why?
But,
That was my life. Fighting something most people could not see. Although, _some_ could. Was it a waste of my life? I've wondered that. I haven't had a lot of companionship or love on this weird journey I was given but hey,
who knows why this happens to some of us. What is our final destiny?
Is it just the ground? I used to think so. Now I know it isn't

hah -=) I just thought of a song -y'all _might_ like  
give it a chance-the song is good-the video well,
- sorry. the intro--it's completely retarded.-once the whole band actually starts playing
together it gets better. Either start it at 1:18 or
listen to the song and turn off your monitor HAH


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