# Pain killers and long term side effects and problems



## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

So I have been taking pain killers for a long time, i was hospitalized once for inflammation of the liver but i did not feel it, i was just tested for paracetamol toxicity as i had taken 15 pills per day for the past two weeks and they built up and my levels were high as anything and i was yellow under the eyes so i had an angry liver so to speak but with the right antidote i was fine

however now i do not take paracetamol by the bucket load, i only take strong mersyndol which is a combination of doxylamine, codeine and paracetamol 
i do not take 15 or nearly as many as that, but i am worried that by taking a couple to four pills of mersyndol each day may be affecting my kidneys as i am peeing all the time, really tired and have lower back pain and stomach pain

i know i have IBS but thats something i know and am trying to control so what do you think?


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

I've often described what we have in the US as the DEA's "Let's Kill A Junkie" program. For no pharmacological purpose, Tylenol is mixed with hydrocodone (Vicodin, Lortab, Norco) or codeine (Tylenol #3 being the most common mix). When mixed with liver-toxic Tylenol these drugs become C-III, so they can be prescribed over the phone and can be refilled up to 5 times. Both would be C-II and require a script written on paper and have no refills is not laced with liver-toxic Tylenol in a misguided attempt to deter junkies. Yeah, like a true junkie is going to be deterred by negative health consequences -- if such considerations were enough to stop junkies we wouldn't have heroin addicts who share contaminated needles! Oxycodone is mixed with Tylenol as well in Percocet & Tylox, though it remains a C-II no matter what you mix it with.

Apparently, the DEA feels death by drugs is fine as long as it's relatively slow and not fun. Tylenol is certainly toxic, though I think it takes about two weeks to die from a Tylenol suicide where nothing can be done to save them if not treated within a matter of hours. I'd note that Tylenol is the world's most commonly used drug in suicide attempts. We'd better make sure they'd don't get their hands on morphine -- they could die from an OD, though they'd die fast and enjoy their final high, unlike death by Tylenol. I fail to see why we differentiate when dead is dead regardless of how you got dead.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

thanks for your input, um i could not follow all of your post, but thats mainly due to the fact i am tired and sore in my back and stuff 
but yeah i agree liver toxicity is very painful and it seems to still be okay to buy these liver and kidney killing pills

my sisters friend has bleeding kidneys and was rushed to hospital but thats okay cuz she was drinking and taking pain killers, both of which are legal yet benzodiazepines are restricted and often said "no" to by docs and shrinks and they do nothing to the liver or kidneys

it annoys me
this is why i take more mersyndol codeine stuff if i am being honest
cuz i do not have a high enough dose of benzo


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

Cold Water Extraction ? I wonder if there is any way to get rid of the Doxylamine. Well either way, theoretically one could get rid of the Acetaminophen and be left with Codeine and Doxylamine ..... haha, this Is a wonderful forum to post about Codeine extraction lolz. But its only in the interest of harm reduction.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

hmm codeine and doxylamine? i think thats what i am addicted to
its not the paracetamol and due to the effexor i am not supposed to take ibuprofen thank god, but the codeine in a small dose mixed with doxylamine is amazing and that is the pain killer i am addicted to, it has 9.75MG of Codeine and 5Mg of doxylamine plus 450MG of paracetamol so its 50MG less than standard paracetamol or what is found in paracetamol plus codeine tablets you can buy over the counter with no questions.
the thing is i was taking up to eight or nine of these codeine, doxylamine, paracetamol based tablets per day so i am going down weekly or monthly as i am also coming off klonopin too. So i start with ten percent less to seven pills then six pills then five then four, at the moment i can handle five.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

I avoid all liver killing Tylenol bs. I only take pure opiods. I've taken Dilaudid for about 3.5 years so far. In total(all my other meds and pain killers combined) I've taken about 15,000 pills in the past 5 years and my liver is completely healthy as well as my kidneys. I have 4-5 blood tests done a year and my blood is perfectly healthy as well.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

You should really stop (ab)using opioids mixed with paracetamol ASAP as you already had acetaminophen-induced hepatitis once. If that's not possible CWE or taking acetylcysteine to replenish glutathione levels would be a wiser idea than just popping the pills.

Getting a recent blood test (GOT, GPT, Gamma-GT, Bilirubin, creatinine, BUN...) and maybe an ultrasound of the abdomen / liver can not hurt...


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Medline said:


> You should really stop (ab)using opioids mixed with paracetamol ASAP as you already had acetaminophen-induced hepatitis once. If that's not possible CWE or taking acetylcysteine to replenish glutathione levels would be a wiser idea than just popping the pills.
> 
> Getting a recent blood test (GOT, GPT, Gamma-GT, Bilirubin, creatinine, BUN...) and maybe an ultrasound of the abdomen / liver can not hurt...


I agree 
I am tapering down as i cannot go cold turkey on them, i tried and was seriously ill and cranky and could not sleep, so i am tapering them ten percent each week. I aimed for six pills this week and five pills a day next week then four a day then three then two.

I have had a liver test done a few weeks ago as the doctor thought it wise to do so since he knows of my addictions including the pain killers, and my blood count and THS levels were fine and my liver was functioning well he said. Apparently my iron was good too but i had more electrolytes than normal or something :roll so yeah over all it was good

xenobiotic, sorry i don't know what CWE is


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

CWE: Cold water extraction. Like xenobiotic said on bluelight there's some info to do it, I usually stay in the european place there.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=396416&highlight=cold+water+extraction


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

i agree with medline, you should not take anymore paracetamol. as long as you take something with an opiate in it, you won't have withdrawals. is there any way you can get your hands on opiate without paracetamol or do the extraction? it is pretty simple to do.


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

i thought the concern was the APAP and not doxylamine though.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Recipe For Disaster said:


> i thought the concern was the APAP and not doxylamine though.


That's right.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

You could get codeine pills without the paracetamol, or at least a better codeine to paracetamol ratio. No need to give your liver a good kicking when it's mainly the codeine you want.

Cold water extraction is very possible, but I personally wouldn't use it as a long term solution as if you screw up once, you could ingest a crapload of paracetamol without even realising it.



> ^^ heh BLer, i knew it lulz


Bluelight reprazent.



> yeah but i dont see a point of taking an antihistamine wit it, even if its a sedative one.


I've heard they potentiate opioids, and reduce the histamine itchiness.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

euphoria said:


> You could get codeine pills without the paracetamol, or at least a better codeine to paracetamol ratio. No need to give your liver a good kicking when it's mainly the codeine you want.
> 
> Cold water extraction is very possible, but I personally wouldn't use it as a long term solution as if you screw up once, you could ingest a crapload of paracetamol without even realising it.
> 
> ...


Hydroxyzine potentates opioids so I would assume the rest of the antihistamines would do the same. The effect isnt really noticeable though.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

xenobiotic said:


> ^^ extraction is very easy but doxylamine seems leik water soluble. imo op also should consider the fact that if she does cold watered codeine she wont receive the same analgesia as she gets wit APAP+codeine which means less analgesia.
> 
> arisa: ever thought bout non-narcotic painkillers? leik diclofenac, that **** worked awesome when i had a stroke (stroke headache is teh worst), its the only NSAID i found useful.


Yes they were brilliant (dicolfenac) but are not sold in New Zealand anymore because they were reported "unsafe" by the new zealand ministry of health which is pathetic :mum

I do not know how or what sort of opiate would have no pain killer in them
i only know of benzo's, if i were to take lorazepam instead of the pain killers that would be much better as i would taper off them instead but the doc will simply not allow anything, not even valium which would not only save me money as they are funded here but would mean i don't need pain killers:yes


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

@Arisa: Is there no chance your doc could prescribe you some pure, reatively weak opioid like codeine, just enough for tapering down? I mean he knows you had liver problems in the past because of analgetics mixed with paracetamol.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Medline said:


> @Arisa: Is there no chance your doc could prescribe you some pure, reatively weak opioid like codeine, just enough for tapering down? I mean he knows you had liver problems in the past because of analgetics mixed with paracetamol.


Hey medline :hs
thanks for your post, About the opiod, i shall ask him as he does know about my liver problem in november when i went to hospital, he also forgot i cannot take anti inflammatory drugs :no seriously i am on effexor and have stomach ulcer problems, he should remember but anyway i can ask him about taking codeine instead since he wont give me valium over the pain killers. he basically said, the last time i saw him was that it was up to me to stop taking the pain killers so he probably wont help me even though he knows i am hooked on opiates as well as benzos, there is a possibility i could visit my doctor back in my hometown when i visit next month because she was really great with stuff like this.

I was prescribed 30MG of pure codeine and it did not work for me, it made me feel ill and dizzy and did not get rid of any headaches or tooth pain i had.:mum its so frustrating!!!!
i cannot just stop the pain killers, i tried that and felt so ill i wanted to throw up and die at the same time i do not want to be on them forever

Is ambien any better than zopiclone for sleep? or exactly the same thing?
not that i know if we can even get ambien over this side of the world
it may stop the need for pain killers


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Arisa1536 said:


> Is ambien any better than zopiclone for sleep? or exactly the same thing?
> not that i know if we can even get ambien over this side of the world
> it may stop the need for pain killers


It's not the same, but it's similair enough that if you have a tendency to become addicted to zopiclone then you'd most likely also be predisposed to ambien addiction.

The 'rewarding effects' of both meds stem from a shared mechanism which they possess.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> It's not the same, but it's similair enough that if you have a tendency to become addicted to zopiclone then you'd most likely also be predisposed to ambien addiction.
> 
> The 'rewarding effects' of both meds stem from a shared mechanism which they possess.


Ah k thanks 
So they are basically Z drugs?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Arisa1536 said:


> So they are basically Z drugs?


*Z*olpidem (brand name = Ambien), *Z*opiclone, *Z*aleplon...


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

I get it now 
Thanks :hs

Well then all Z drugs are off the list for me then


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Try some Trazodone for your sleep problems. It's really strong. Or Amitriptyline(not as strong).


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Trazodone's not available down under unfortunately.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Trazadone? yeah dammit


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

What about tramadol toxicity (25 mg daily) ? Is it safe ?


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

p4oloz said:


> What about tramadol toxicity (25 mg daily) ? Is it safe ?


Thats a good suggestion and i would happily go there but it has to be prescribed here unlike the pain killers i take now. i doubt my doctor will allow me to withdraw with tramadol, i know its available but its usually only given to post surgery patients for pain.

Thanks for your input though, i can try but i have a feeling the doc will say no
he bascially said i was _on my own_ with the pain killer reduction, however when you are withdrawing from two addictive pills like clonazepam and zopiclone, i cannot exactly be "on my own" with the pain killers. Some people who have done rehabilitation take ten pills a day just to curb there withdrawals but again we have a system here where if u can buy it OTC then you are on your own, the bad thing is the pain killers are more dangerous than both the Z drug and the clonazepam for my liver and kidneys but like the doc told me "im on my own" its up to me to stop taking them, alongside the other two drugs just like that....

i wish i could speak to a doctor who has been there or experienced something similar in their youth....:mum


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

p4oloz said:


> What about tramadol toxicity (25 mg daily) ? Is it safe ?


And I've another question for the "experts" of the site, the NMDA-antagonist features of tramadol, is enough strong to prevent tolerance to the opioid action of that medications (and from that of Benzo)? Thanks in advance


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

p4oloz said:


> What about tramadol toxicity (25 mg daily) ? Is it safe ?


Yes, no problem. Not exactly a high dose in fact.



> *DOSING:* The recommended dose of tramadol is 50-100 mg (immediate release tablets) every 4-6 hours as needed for pain. The maximum dose is 400 mg/day.


http://www.medicinenet.com/tramadol/article.htm


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

p4oloz said:


> And I've another question for the "experts" of the site, the NMDA-antagonist features of tramadol, is enough strong to prevent tolerance to the opioid action of that medications (and from that of Benzo)? Thanks in advance


Probably not, it probably has significant NMDA antagonist activity but it has to be strong enough.


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## p4oloz (Aug 17, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Probably not, it probably has significant NMDA antagonist activity but it has to be strong enough.


Thanks to both !


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

I guess tramadol is out then, but i would not be able to get it anyway
unless..... i see my old doctor in my home town but that wont be until we move back there in november, although she is more understanding and not as stubborn as my doctor at the moment, he says no to everything, she looks for ways to help as she has been there with depression and anxiety.

Tamol is that the same as tramadol?
our dog just had puppies and is taking it as she had a rough pregnancy


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Arisa1536 said:


> Tamol is that the same as tramadol?
> our dog just had puppies and is taking it as she had a rough pregnancy


It seems to just contain Paracetamol.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Medline said:


> It seems to just contain Paracetamol.


ah i see thanks 
i did not think they would give a dog Tramadol :afr

anyway Oxycodone is strong stuff right?
i have friend in australia who is addicted to it, but it did wonders for pain at first


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Arisa1536 said:


> anyway Oxycodone is strong stuff right?


Yes, a very strong painkiller.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

i read that its not good to be mixed with clonazepam :afr
and its probably more addictive then what i am on now with the mersyndol


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Arisa1536 said:


> i read that its not good to be mixed with clonazepam :afr
> and its probably more addictive then what i am on now with the mersyndol


I mix Dilaudid and Klonopin together and I'm fine. (Dilaudid is stronger than Oxycodone). Oxycodone is DEFINITELY more addictive than anything you are on now. My advice is to not use it. If you need something stronger for pain try Dilaudid or Morphine instead.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

thanks house 
but i doubt i would get morphine ha ha lol 
my doc would never in a million years agree to that.
He dislikes all pain killers except those awful anti inflammatory drugs that give you stomach ulcers and bleeding kidneys because they are apparently safer and "less addictive" but i cannot take them.
I wish he would prescribe me tramadol for the addiction then i would not need the pain killer combo i take now
why are doctors so stubborn?


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Arisa1536 said:


> I wish he would prescribe me tramadol for the addiction then i would not need the pain killer combo i take now
> why are doctors so stubborn?


The combination of tramadol and effexor can sometimes result in serotonin syndrome, so it's probably not the best idea to mix them, and that's probably what your doctors thinking when he's not prescribing tramadol.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> The combination of tramadol and effexor can sometimes result in serotonin syndrome, so it's probably not the best idea to mix them, and that's probably what your doctors thinking when he's not prescribing tramadol.


Ok :yes 
that explains it but i doubt he would prescribe it anyway:no


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## byng (Aug 4, 2012)

*Headaches/Toothache*

I have been getting headaches and toothaches, It took forever to figure out what was happening, only after making the trip to the Dentist and being told that my teeth were fine but he could see signs of clenching of the _jaw. It's a common problem. Now to stop myself from doing so is another story:mum_

Just sayin:um


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Arisa1536 said:


> Ok :yes
> that explains it but i doubt he would prescribe it anyway:no


In the US they prescribe Suboxone for withdrawals and sometimes it works for cravings. I have also read some users have experienced some anti depressant effects from it as well.

I have the same experience with you on Tylenol in pain killers. I use CWE though for my hydrocodone use, which might I add I am quiting and have full support of family. I peaked at a daily dose of 180-200mg of hydrocodone, which is ~ 18-20 10mg/350mg acetaminophen. I was stupid for doing this, I honestly was not getting any euphoria with that kind of dose either. I tapered off my usage and I am doing fine now. I still feel depressed without
It though.


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