# If you're good at math, how did it happen?



## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

For all the math whizzes out there and of course, this will seem like a dumb question/no brainer, how did you get skilled at math and calculations? Feel free to elaborate.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

Idk, it just makes sense. It seems like the easiest subject, it's all very objective and logical, follows rules and it's very clear. 

It would probably be better if you elaborated on what you're struggling with, what about it isn't making sense to you?


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## templar19 (May 12, 2009)

I think most people who are bad at math try to get good at it by rote and memorization: they skip all the theory and explanation in their text and go straight to the answer key/examples to try and figure out what's going on. I'd argue that it's the theory and explanation students need to spend most time on: understand the simplest, most basic definitions and theorems before you try to attempt any problems. Make sure you understand the definitions really well, ask questions like, 'Why is this theorem true? Why does this concept apply? Are there only certain cases when this is true?' and try to answer them. If you don't understand your textbook (which happens often), sit with a tutor or watch a Youtube video. Only when the theory doesn't look like complete gobbledy**** should you attempt to apply it in some questions, because only then will you be doing actual math rather than just thoughtlessly moving symbols around on a page.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

I've always liked it better than any other subject. Also my parents had me do a lot of practice when I was a kid. Then I started reading algebra, trigonometry and calculus books by myself for fun at about age 11 to 12, and tried to read whatever mathematics and physics books I could while I was a teenager. I could have been much further ahead if the library had a bigger selection of books.

Mostly my mathematical ability came from learning this stuff myself because I liked it, not from school. That's really the key to it - you have to like it enough to want to do all the gritty stuff without being buried by the gritty stuff because you can see the greater beauty behind it. The times I struggled in grad school happened because I got caught up in the institutional crap (interacting with supervisor, having deadlines, etc.) and lost sight of what I liked about the subject itself.


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## Perkins (Dec 14, 2010)

I'm not great at it but I find I _definitely_ prefer it over writing papers.


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## catcharay (Sep 15, 2011)

If you are good at maths, you are a god and I will worship you. From a very long time I've always valued math abilities but I wasn't and still am not any good  All of my family is strong w logic whereas it takes me such a considerable time to complete a problem. 

It's about practice always and persistence when you feel dispirited w your abilities. But I shouldn't talk..cos I'm no good


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

Shameful said:


> It would probably be better if you elaborated on what you're struggling with, what about it isn't making sense to you?


I've just struggled with basic fractions and anything algebra from then on. Understanding concepts of algebra, polynomials -why they exist. Equations, I can get. But somewhere along the line, I lost it at algebra, I'd say. Learned a few things about trig, which was more understandable because it was like geometry except with arcs and degrees. The graphical part of it, I could understand better. Hm.. I'm not sure what I'm trying articulate mostly, but basically I feel like I stopped learning math efficiently from 9th grade and on which is why I feel terrible at it now.



templar19 said:


> *they skip all the theory and explanation in their text and go straight to the answer key/examples to try and figure out what's going on.* I'd argue that it's the theory and explanation students need to spend most time on: understand the simplest, most basic definitions and theorems before you try to attempt any problems. Make sure you understand the definitions really well, ask questions like, 'Why is this theorem true? Why does this concept apply? Are there only certain cases when this is true?' and try to answer them. If you don't understand your textbook (which happens often), sit with a tutor or watch a Youtube video. Only when the theory doesn't look like complete gobbledy**** should you attempt to apply it in some questions, *because only then will you be doing actual math rather than just thoughtlessly moving symbols around on a page.*


You know what, this is so true. All throughout high school, one gets the feeling that they are pushing subjects and concepts on you like crazy and you're just plugging in the numbers so that you get the correct answer. My brother, who's a math whiz, taught me in a single lesson more stuff about math than if I'd spent studying it myself. Basically broke down the concepts in a mathematical fashion. Example: with the distributive property and exponents - (_ab_3)to third power = (_a_3_b_3). I asked how? And he's like, well: (_ab_3)= ab·ab·ab = aaabbb = _a_3b3. I was like, mind =blown, obviously since it just didn't occur to me at the time aka intuitively. Sometimes math for some is not a thing you get intuitively or even why. It just seems like people who go through math know that all of the concepts like algebra, graphing, properties and functions build on top of one another and so they totally get it, in an intuitive way when math is basically all logic so you can't go wrong. But um, yeah logic again is something that can be shown in ways, but not always arrived at intuitively.

And to illustrate this phenomenon, I still have no idea to this day why parabolas are essential learning in algebra which I can gather because it involves polynomials with an exponent, but other than that.. why parabola? Idk. :stu. My brother also explained that the x/y lines on a chart they make you do is basically a graphical representation of that equation, which I did not know at all. Not to ramble, but another secret he let me in on was that sin2 _θ +_ cos_θ_2 = 1 is basically the Pythagorean theorem (a2_+_ b2 = c2) which I had no idea about. I knew both identities, but going through math, I didn't know they were essentially saying the same thing. Go figure, which is why I'm amazed at how math people know all this stuff even if they're expressed sideways and crossways.



Ape in space said:


> I've always liked it better than any other subject. Also my parents had me do a lot of practice when I was a kid. Then I started reading algebra, trigonometry and calculus books by myself for fun at about age 11 to 12, and tried to read whatever mathematics and physics books I could while I was a teenager. I could have been much further ahead if the library had a bigger selection of books.
> 
> Mostly my mathematical ability came from learning this stuff myself because I liked it, not from school. That's really the key to it - you have to like it enough to want to do all the gritty stuff without being buried by the gritty stuff because you can see the greater beauty behind it. The times I struggled in grad school happened because I got caught up in the institutional crap (interacting with supervisor, having deadlines, etc.) and lost sight of what I liked about the subject itself.


So you knew all about the secrets of math too? Haha, that's cool. I mean really, you have the upper hand. You could calculate your mortgage rate and how much you're spending every month and put it in a pie chart.

To end my rant about math, I think it was Einstein who said, *"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand."

*Which I think makes a really good point, but math (and to that extent, creativity, engineering) requires a lot of abstract thinking to arrive at some conclusions. Thinking in a linear fashion is not always the best solution, which schools tend to teach you. And also that math is completely linear, Tee. Hee.

So, that is basically my rant on math and why I'm wondering how people get good at it. I'm also feeling extra dumb as of late because a few stressful things have fried my brain in ways but at the same time I'm aware of the capacity and capability of human intelligence. Obviously there are better and more efficient ways to do math rather than relying on ways they teach you in school, which is why I was so curious as to ask. And they wonder why some kids in America are so math-deficient.


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## Bluestar29 (Oct 26, 2013)

I see everything in terms of equations, probability and success rate. Since I was kid it just made sense.


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## VictimEternal (Aug 10, 2014)

I just know it happened i don't know how


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## Stilla (May 13, 2009)

everything that has to do with math puts me in a rage fit.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

The way they teach math(s) here in UK schools is so bad. It's like someone already mentioned in this thread; they just shove a load of different mathematical concepts at you and make you do exercises that substitute numbers in and out.

I've only got a fairly decent understanding in the last few years when I self taught. I'm still not great, but I'm trying to improve regularly (which helps) I think the unpopular but effective way to improve is to do some learning frequently rather than big chunks every so often.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm okay at math. But I hate everything about it. It gets in the way of me being good because I could possibly do it but I want to die every time I start thinking about numbers.


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

I enjoy reading about theoretical physics, but to learn the mathematics behind the ideas I would require one of the most patient, forthcoming tutors available.

The corollary then is that I am about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest when it comes to crunching the numbers.


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## Aribeth (Jan 14, 2012)

Shameful said:


> Idk, it just makes sense. It seems like the easiest subject, it's all very objective and logical, follows rules and it's very clear.


It felt like the complete opposite to me. Was the hardest subject out of all. This and physics.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

I enjoy it when it's linked to something I can visualise, for example the maths in Bernoulli equations, since I can see how it all works with the use of diagrams and so forth. Maths like Fourier series or Laplace transforms for example is a different matter, I struggle.


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## BeautifulSilence (Nov 18, 2014)

It just makes sense to me. I think you're either good at maths or you're not. I tutor maths and it seems to require a certain way of thinking that you either have or you don't.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

Aribeth said:


> It felt like the complete opposite to me. Was the hardest subject out of all. This and physics.


Hard but fair I think though. I've always liked subjects where you're either right or wrong categorically - more arty stuff is left up to the opinion of the person who's assessing you. Which seeing as I'm not an extroverted person and have not always gotten along with teachers is a bit of a disadvantage.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

Hard work and a drive to understand the underlying mechanisms.

There aren't people who just "suck at math". There are only people unwilling to understand it.


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## Jerusalem96 (Nov 22, 2014)

The desire to know what really goes on


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Sacrieur said:


> Hard work and a drive to understand the underlying mechanisms.
> 
> There aren't people who just "suck at math". There are only people unwilling to understand it.


I disagree. Perhaps you could argue that there are ways of teaching it where everyone could be fairly competent, but if the methods used to teach it in school don't work for you and you're not able to teach yourself it's not unwillingness. Not everyone is equally good at subjects.

As for me I'm bad at maths, I might have been average but the only time I had a actually decent teacher was for about two months at 16 when I had to retake maths in sixth form. They suddenly care more I guess when you fail and effect the country's statistics. Not at all cynical about this 

But the UK absolutely deserves its title as one (if not the?) of the worst developed countries for maths education based on my experience.


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

I hated math barely passed exams I said to myself x+y=z who cares, but the first job I got involved some counting I just used a calculator


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## lostinlife (Jun 2, 2010)

I put other. I got good at math because when I struggled with math, no one knew how to help me. You look at most of the math resources that are out there and it's mainly really low level procedural stuff or really advanced mathematical proofs. There isn't a lot of intermediate level that bridges those two types of resources. I could do the procedural stuff already (that's the stuff they teach in schools), but I never felt good at math. They don't teach you to think mathematically. They equate good grades with good math skills but that can actually hide a lot of math weaknesses since schools tend to spoon feed you answers. So I ended up having to write a lot of my own material to help myself get good at math. 

A lot of what I learned about math came just from talking to people and by looking at how math people talk to each other on discussion boards and forums. You need to learn what math people do when they don't know something. That's the secret that they don't tell you in school. In real life, math skills come down to how you react when you *don't* know something, not when you do. Math in real life is messy so you have to know how to pull out information to make it usable to you. I'll never be a math person that just automatically gets it. But given time, I can explain math better than most people.


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## lostinlife (Jun 2, 2010)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I disagree. Perhaps you could argue that there are ways of teaching it where everyone could be fairly competent, but if the methods used to teach it in school don't work for you and you're not able to teach yourself it's not unwillingness. Not everypne is equally good at subjects.


 I agree with you. When you are struggling with math, it's tough to know where to even start. You can learn x concept, but if that concept doesn't have any background for it to stick, you'll just end up forgetting it. You have to build a good foundation for mathematical thinking and not a lot of math teachers are good at bringing that out in their students. Also if a student has had a bad experience with math in the past, the new math teacher is fighting all that psychological baggage too in order to win the student back and put them in a good place to be receptive to learning math at all.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Sacrieur said:


> Hard work and a drive to understand the underlying mechanisms.
> 
> There aren't people who just "suck at math". There are only people unwilling to understand it.


Wow...you have got to be kidding me.

There are people with severe learning disabilities or mental retardation who "suck at math". Not everyone is capable of being good at all of the same things because everyone is different. You seem to be fond of these sweeping statements. Saying this is like saying people who are depressed are just unwilling to get better.


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## Jerusalem96 (Nov 22, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> But the UK absolutely deserves its title as one (if not the?) of the worst developed countries for maths education based on my experience.


I beg to jump in here and differ.

As a student it may seem that way but I'm pretty sure that students in the UK know and understand far more maths than their counterparts (same age) in the US.

The UK does not place much emphasis on the humanities. No one is forced to take on those essay subjects or maths that he or she cannot handle.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Jerusalem96 said:


> I beg to jump in here and differ.
> 
> As a student it may seem that way but I'm pretty sure that students in the UK know and understand far more maths than their counterparts (same age) in the US.
> 
> The UK does not place much emphasis on the humanities. No one is forced to take on those essay subjects or maths that he or she cannot handle.


It's abysmal. If you're saying the US is worse I'll believe you because they never seem to come out tops in education, but I'm slightly horrified all the same.

The UK does badly at both Maths and English, but my personal experience was that all the Humanities were taught much better than Maths in my school (History, English etc)

I had a good teacher for biology and a bad one for physics (cause Science was broken up into chemistry, biology and physics with different teachers covering different modules.) A bunch of students created a petition to try and get him fired... I don't think I signed it, but it was certainly popular. He would spend most of the lessons filling in crossword puzzles. so science was a mixed bag for me. We were the 'top' set (I say top set because there were two top sets according to teachers but it was really obvious that one was slightly better than the other since the other was full of 'gifted and talented students') and everyone got really bad grades in those modules compared to the other ones, to the point where they 'investigated' that, but nothing changed. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was in a lower set for maths, which meant those students who don't give a **** and want to **** about as well as people who just generally struggle with the subject. She could not control the class at all, they had no respect for her. Sometimes she'd just go off on weird tangents about her political opinions. One time a whole class just ended up being her negative opinions on homosexuality... She was a complete joke. You just answered questions from a text book, but she didn't have time to help anyone because the class was so chaotic. My dad apparently complained about her to the school cause I'd rant about her so much (he didn't tell me till after I left, I guess he knew I'd freak out lol) but once again... Nothing changed there either...

Obviously this is anecdotal but I know there is a shortage of good maths teachers in the UK in general, it's something people complain about all the time. To pretend that the UK is doing OK by developed country standards seems pretty negligent to me. Even if the US is slightly worse.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

I hate math with a passion- especially since going back to school recently.

I had almost forgotten how much it vexed me. Math was always my worst subject where as I could almost breeze through anything else.


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## Jerusalem96 (Nov 22, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> It's abysmal. If you're saying the US is worse I'll believe you because they never seem to come out tops in education, but I'm slightly horrified all the same.
> 
> The UK does badly at both Maths and English, but my personal experience was that all the Humanities were taught much better than Maths in my school (History, English etc)
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

Still I'm sure that the standard of the UK (teachers and students) are better than the US. Their system (A Levels, linear or modular) is also way better - and flexible than the US.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

> *How did you get good at math?*




I started using a calculator.


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## Fey (Nov 4, 2014)

Most teachers are confused and wonder how I managed to get from just passing to almost topping the class because when a teacher asks me to "Find the geometric sequence whose 2nd term is 15 and whose 8th term is 15/729", my mind would go blank because I wouldn't know what half the sentence even meant. Specialised terminology doesn't stick with me, don't know why.

But my maths teacher knows this and so whenever he's explaining to the class, he gets me to just keep on working and learning from his examples on our OneNotes instead of trying to follow on the board because I won't understand his mumbo jumbo and it'll only confuse me more. One of the best teachers I've ever had.


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## Raeden (Feb 8, 2013)

Practice and mastering the basics before moving on. 

I've tutored algebra students who still couldn't confidently add fractions, and I think that's a big problem with math education. Students seem to be pushed into classes they aren't prepared for, so they just completely drown when they're introduced into algebra and above because they can't even do the arithmetic.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Yeah there definitely could be improvements with teaching the fundamentals and ensuring people understand them before moving on to the fancy crap.


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## Raeden (Feb 8, 2013)

tbyrfan said:


> Wow...you have got to be kidding me.
> 
> There are people with severe learning disabilities or mental retardation who "suck at math". Not everyone is capable of being good at all of the same things because everyone is different. You seem to be fond of these sweeping statements. Saying this is like saying people who are depressed are just unwilling to get better.


Yeah, there are some people who do have mental disabilities that make it harder for them to excel at math. However, only about 6-7% of elementary school children have Dyscalculia. 

The average person doesn't have a math disability. So, for the large majority of people who "suck at math", it's just a matter of not applying themselves and being products of a sub-par education system. The majority of failing math students that I've observed are more akin to depressed people who have totally given up on life and reject all form of treatment. It's socially acceptable to just say that you're not good at math and give up without giving it a proper try, so you have people graduate high school who struggle to even solve 2x+5=100/25. They suck at math because they never honestly tried, their math education was likely abysmal, and society never pressured to value math skills.

Additionally, there are people with other reading disabilities such as dyslexia who still, with training, are able to read properly. Society doesn't allow people to simply accept being illiterate, so most people with _milder_ forms of these disabilities will struggle until they are functional.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

1. I'm not but I also know why (sort of). I don't think you can be good at math if you don't have a good memory. That's the first strike against me. My memory is OK for some things but dreadful for anything to do with math.

2. I think you also have to have a knack for working through complicated things in your head. That's another strike against me. I need a physical representation of something that's complicated in order to really grasp it. And then, you need a good memory to remember what you saw. 

3. You have to care about math to really make the effort to learn it. I just never cared about it. When I went for my GED, I learned just enough of it to pass. When I worked with money, I learned just enough to do what I needed to do. I know I will forget it so I don't bother. Some people find challenges to be fun and interesting. I don't. I find them to be boring and tedious.


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## apx24 (Jan 31, 2012)

Sacrieur said:


> Hard work and a drive to understand the underlying mechanisms.
> 
> There aren't people who just "suck at math". There are only people unwilling to understand it.


Oh please, you have no ****ing idea what you are talking about. Get off your ****ing high horse .


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## apx24 (Jan 31, 2012)

Raeden said:


> Yeah, there are some people who do have mental disabilities that make it harder for them to excel at math. However, only about 6-7% of elementary school children have Dyscalculia.
> 
> The average person doesn't have a math disability. So, for the large majority of people who "suck at math", it's just a matter of not applying themselves and being products of a sub-par education system. The majority of failing math students that I've observed are more akin to depressed people who have totally given up on life and reject all form of treatment. It's socially acceptable to just say that you're not good at math and give up without giving it a proper try, so you have people graduate high school who struggle to even solve 2x+5=100/25. They suck at math because they never honestly tried, their math education was likely abysmal, and society never pressured to value math skills.
> 
> Additionally, there are people with other reading disabilities such as dyslexia who still, with training, are able to read properly. Society doesn't allow people to simply accept being illiterate, so most people with _milder_ forms of these disabilities will struggle until they are functional.


You don't know what you are talking about either. I went to a good school and I still sucked at maths, I also worked my arse off during my Maths GCSE and I was only able to scrape an average grade. Conversely, I was able to get top grades in subjects where I put less work in, that I was naturally better at (like languages in my case)

And by the way, I've been thinking about that equation you wrote for a few minutes and I still don't understand it.

If you think that hard work is all it takes to be good at maths or science or any subject then you are the one that is delusional. You have to have some sort of ability to perform well at a subject, only then will hard work get you the best grades.

Someone with dyslexia will always be at a disadvantage compared to someone without it. He/she will always find it harder to get the top grades. Because that's what's important in society isn't it? Top grades? Well, at least those of you with top grades can feel smug about yourselves because you did well in something, without wanting to believe that you had an advantage before you even sat down to take the paper.

You sound like one of the those arrogant people that go to top universities that look down on us who weren't as lucky to get a place.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

apx24 said:


> If you think that hard work is all it takes to be good at maths or science or any subject then you are the one that is delusional. You have to have some sort of ability to perform well at a subject, only then will hard work get you the best grades.


Agreed.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

tbyrfan said:


> Wow...you have got to be kidding me.
> 
> There are people with severe learning disabilities or mental retardation who "suck at math". Not everyone is capable of being good at all of the same things because everyone is different. You seem to be fond of these sweeping statements. Saying this is like saying people who are depressed are just unwilling to get better.


Obviously I'm not including people with learning disabilities, in case that wasn't apparent.



apx24 said:


> Oh please, you have no ****ing idea what you are talking about. Get off your ****ing high horse .


It's not just about working hard. It's about working hard to understand it. If you can't even understand 2x + 5 = 100/25 then you're not taking time to understand the fundamental principles involved. Anyone that can use basic reasoning skills (the same skills used to play video games and you know, not die) can do math. There's absolutely no reason for you to be good at language but be unable to understand mathematical equations, because math is a language.

I'm saying that people put artificial limitations on themselves because they see something they don't immediately comprehend and give up.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Raeden said:


> Yeah, there are some people who do have mental disabilities that make it harder for them to excel at math. However, only about 6-7% of elementary school children have Dyscalculia.
> 
> The average person doesn't have a math disability. So, for the large majority of people who "suck at math", it's just a matter of not applying themselves and being products of a sub-par education system. The majority of failing math students that I've observed are more akin to depressed people who have totally given up on life and reject all form of treatment. It's socially acceptable to just say that you're not good at math and give up without giving it a proper try, so you have people graduate high school who struggle to even solve 2x+5=100/25. They suck at math because they never honestly tried, their math education was likely abysmal, and society never pressured to value math skills.
> 
> Additionally, there are people with other reading disabilities such as dyslexia who still, with training, are able to read properly. Society doesn't allow people to simply accept being illiterate, so most people with _milder_ forms of these disabilities will struggle until they are functional.


I don't know, sometimes you just don't get things. In college I had to do a bunch of tests in different number systems and I failed the one on dividing hexadecimal numbers four times so I had to have one on one help, and I don't have a learning disability. Some people just naturally aren't as good at certain subjects as others. People don't generally feel enthusiastic when they keep failing though no, if the reaspn they are failing is because of a bad teacher than that's one thing but if they just don't understand things at the same rate as most or using the same methods you can say they are bad at maths.

Also is x 7? Cause if not I have no clue either lol. Not even sure if finding x is what you're supposed to do... Edit: yep that's not what I'm supposed to be doing so yeah.

Oh yes, and a while ago a lot of people on this forum claimed they had above average intelligence in a poll here so perhaps people think this is the norm, but it's not. Not everyone is intelligent and why people here would assume that everyone can perform at that level I have no idea.



apx24 said:


> Someone with dyslexia will always be at a disadvantage compared to someone without it. He/she will always find it harder to get the top grades. Because that's what's important in society isn't it? Top grades? Well, at least those of you with top grades can feel smug about yourselves because you did well in something, without wanting to believe that you had an advantage before you even sat down to take the paper.


Yup, I did well at History but I don't/didn't go around belittling the efforts of people that struggle with that subject.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

WillYouStopDave said:


> 1. I'm not but I also know why (sort of). I don't think you can be good at math if you don't have a good memory. That's the first strike against me. My memory is OK for some things but dreadful for anything to do with math.
> 
> 2. I think you also have to have a knack for working through complicated things in your head. That's another strike against me. I need a physical representation of something that's complicated in order to really grasp it. And then, you need a good memory to remember what you saw.
> 
> 3. You have to care about math to really make the effort to learn it. I just never cared about it. When I went for my GED, I learned just enough of it to pass. When I worked with money, I learned just enough to do what I needed to do. I know I will forget it so I don't bother. Some people find challenges to be fun and interesting. I don't. I find them to be boring and tedious.


I think you need good short term memory specifically. It seems that way, and I think mine is pretty poor. Otherwise I suppose you can compensate a little by making notes. I also know what you mean, I can't do much inside my head.


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## Raeden (Feb 8, 2013)

apx24 said:


> I went to a good school and I still sucked at maths, I also worked my arse off during my Maths GCSE and I was only able to scrape an average grade.


Just because you went to a good school doesn't mean that it taught _math_ well. Furthermore, a good school can't really help much if you've reached the highschool/college level of math without fully understanding elementary level arithmetic.



apx24 said:


> And by the way, I've been thinking about that equation you wrote for a few minutes and I still don't understand it.


Which further supports my theory that your elementary arithmetic education was seriously deficient, and explains why you experienced great difficulty in picking up math at the highschool level.



apx24 said:


> If you think that hard work is all it takes to be good at maths or science or any subject then you are the one that is delusional. You have to have some sort of ability to perform well at a subject, only then will hard work get you the best grades.


"Natural ability" helps to start with, sure. It's like having a 20 ft running start on a race. However, a 20ft running start won't do you much good if you just try walking for the rest of the race. Natural talent or not, you still need to run at a steady pace to complete the remainder of the race.

Besides, math education isn't a race. I'm not interested in arguing whether Timmy or Billy will learn to manipulate fractions first. I'm just saying that both have the _capability_ to learn it barring severe mental disability.



apx24 said:


> Well, at least those of you with top grades can feel smug about yourselves because you did well in something, without wanting to believe that you had an advantage before you even sat down to take the paper.


The amount of people who are good at things just because of "natural talent" aren't the majority. Especially at the highschool level, the main determinant is dedicated study and quality educational materials to learn from.

I'd bet that the majority of kids that you think have some natural advantage were actually just normal kids who had a complete and solid understanding of the prerequisite knowledge. The majority of people who I've worked with who claimed to be bad at math were actually just in math classes above their level. It's impossible to succeed at calculus if you still have problems with algebra, and you're going to struggle immensely in algebra if you still have problems manipulating fractions.



apx24 said:


> You sound like one of the those arrogant people that go to top universities that look down on us who weren't as lucky to get a place.


Yeah, screw me for thinking that people shouldn't just bury their head in the sand screaming, "I can't do it! I can't do it!". How dare I believe that people actually have the capacity to learn and succeed provided they have the proper educational tools and possess adequate dedication. This is some Hitler logic right here, amirite?

But, no, I don't go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, etc. If I was arrogant, then I'd be putting myself up on a pedestal for learning math; I'd be saying that the rest of you filthy commoners couldn't even attempt to learn something that obviously a genius like myself could only understand. Instead, I'm humble about all of this. I realize that the reason I am where I am is because I worked my *** off, had access to decent educational materials, and proceeded at my own pace through various math topics.

It's not like I was naturally talented at math. In fact, I used to run and hide anytime someone would suggest that I do one math worksheet. However, since I wasn't allowed to give up on math, then I eventually became better at it. I mastered basic arithmetic before moving on to higher math topics, so it felt like I was building upon knowledge rather than just learning a bunch of random topics. If math is learned properly, then it feels like you're climbing a staircase rather than trying to jump up a 20ft wall.

Ultimately, math is like learning a language. You're going to have a hard time communicating if you try to write a novel in German before you can even conjugate in the present tense and only have a vocabulary of 68 words. These things need to be gradually learned while ensuring that prerequisite knowledge is fully grasped.



Persephone The Dread said:


> Also is x 7? Cause if not I have no clue either lol. Not even sure if finding x is what you're supposed to do... Edit: yep that's not what I'm supposed to be doing so yeah.


What you do to one side of the equation (= sign), you must do to the other. The ultimate goal is to isolate x by subtraction and division.

2x + 5 = 100/25

Simplify fraction
2x + 5 = 4

Subtract 5 from both sides in order to isolate 2x on the left side 
2x + 5 - 5 = 4 - 5

Simplify
2x + 0 = -1
. . .
2x = -1

Divide both sides by 2 in order to isolate x
(2x)/2 = (-1)/2

2 on top and bottom of fraction cancel out

x= (-1)/2
x= -0.5



Persephone The Dread said:


> Oh yes, and a while ago a lot of people on this forum claimed they had above average intelligence in a poll here so perhaps people think this is the norm, but it's not. Not everyone is intelligent and why people here would assume that everyone can perform at that level I have no idea.


I don't have above average intelligence. Besides, it's not like we're talking about the average Joe can become an astrophysicist here. I'm just arguing that the average person is capable of mastering high school level math given proper education (both at the highschool and elementary levels) and dedication.



Persephone The Dread said:


> Yup, I did well at History but I don't/didn't go around belittling the efforts of people that struggle with that subject.


I'm not belittling people. I'm doing the exact opposite and telling people that they actually can accomplish things given the right circumstances. How offensive of me. ~__~



WillYouStopDave said:


> 1. I'm not but I also know why (sort of). I don't think you can be good at math if you don't have a good memory. That's the first strike against me. My memory is OK for some things but dreadful for anything to do with math.


Besides maybe times tables or something, what is there to memorize? The only thing I've really committed to memory from math over the years has been the quadratic formula, and I temporarily would have to remember the sequence formulas.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Raeden said:


> I don't have above average intelligence. Besides, it's not like we're talking about the average Joe become an astrophysicist here. I'm just arguing that the average person is capable of mastering high school level math given proper education (both at the highschool and elementary levels) and dedication.
> 
> I'm not belittling people. I'm doing the exact opposite and telling people that they actually can accomplish things given the right circumstances. How offensive of me. ~__~


The idea that you and Sacrieur (and that part was actually a general comment not just directed at you,) claimed - that people are bad at maths because they are not applying themselves enough or are unwilling to understand seems quite unfair. Some people try hard and still get no where. Not just with maths, with other subjects too.

I'm not convinced everyone can 'master' high school level maths. Maybe get a passing grade. But it's not something you'd really be able to prove either way at the moment, with maths education as it is.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

Raeden said:


> What you do to one side of the equation (= sign), you must do to the other. The ultimate goal is to isolate x by subtraction and division.
> 
> 2x + 5 = 100/25
> 
> ...


Ah, that's more elegant than my thought process heh.

I just thought of it as, = means that both sides must be exactly the same.
100 divide by 25 equals 4, which means everything on the left must equal 4. Do a bit of reduction and hey presto, you get -0.5.

Your approach is a lot more understandable and would scale better with more complex equations I reckon.

... anyway as you were guys, I'm going to step away from this debate.


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## scooby (Jun 24, 2009)

I used to be pretty good at math when I was growing up in grade school, but eventually depression got me and I lost focus and interest for learning and fell behind. Then tried to punch above my weight and took classes that were too advanced for me, got frustrated at the difficulty and was failing badly so I grew to really despise math, and never paid attention because of that hatred.


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

I was never a math genius. At some point I started listening in class and practicing. It worked. I got great grades.

That same thing worked at university. All of my degrees involved a lot of statistics classes. I am still not a natural math genius but I earned top grades in all statistics classes though sheer dedication and practice.


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## extremly (Oct 25, 2012)

Thank you for making this thread OP sometimes it feels everyone is a math genius, luckily I'm not alone here. I'm also a recovering bad math student.

Was not always bad at math but at some point from 6th grade to 8th grade I said Fuh it and it was all downhill from there.

Anyways my Dad really opened my eyes with regards to math. He told me he had entered university hardly knowing how to do long division but somehow he managed to complete his career that is math intensive to say the least. 

The trick is consistency AND discipline. He approached his math problem by studying everyday for at least 1 hour a day and I can testify it truly works.

My older sister initially was the one giving me the lessons but after I grasped a lot of the basic concepts (Polynomials, quadratics, etc) I started to study by myself for 1 hour a day almost everyday.

consistency AND discipline. 

That is going to be your salvation OP, it is the salvation of us bad math students :wink


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## Raeden (Feb 8, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> The idea that you and Sacrieur (and that part was actually a general comment not just directed at you,) claimed - that people are bad at maths because they are not applying themselves enough or are unwilling to understand seems quite unfair.


I decided to argue in this thread because I disagreed that the reason why students fail math is just because they "suck at math". Failure in math is a multifaceted problem that can't just be explained away by students being incompetent. Ignoring all other problems regarding math education and society's general attitude towards math is unfair and absurd.

I never claimed that it was solely a matter of not applying oneself. Failure to grasp math is also a matter of insufficient math education in most cases. Furthermore, wide-spread math anxiety coming from parents, friends, and general society also probably negatively affects a student's ability to succeed since they likely internalize messages that math is infinitely harder to learn that other subjects.



Persephone The Dread said:


> Some people try hard and still get no where. Not just with maths, with other subjects too.


Math has the highest failure rate of any subject from my understanding. At the college I tutored at, I'm pretty sure their college algebra course had something like a 50% failure rate. Nothing about math makes it inherently more difficult to master than English reading comprehension, grammar, and composition.



Persephone The Dread said:


> I'm not convinced everyone can 'master' high school level maths. Maybe get a passing grade. But it's not something you'd really be able to prove either way at the moment, with maths education as it is.


There have been studies that have correlated tutoring and whatnot with lowered failure rates in math classes. So, I'm sure there are plenty of things that can be done to improve math understanding.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

In my time working with students in a college math upgrading program (where they started as low as basic addition and subtraction), it seemed to me that math is one of those things that people either "get" or "don't get", and that no amount of teaching could make someone who doesn't get it, get it.

People who 'don't get it' can still succeed in math - it just takes a LOT more effort, commitment, and time than they'd need if they 'got it' - enough where if they asked me what they should do, I'd tell them to think about doing something that doesn't require math. It's like, how much time do you really want to spend on the learning process? If the means doesn't justify the end, then get off that path and find something else.


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## Cyzygy (Feb 21, 2011)

Lisa said:


> I was never a maths genius. At some point I started listening in class and practicing. It worked. I got great grades.
> 
> That same thing worked at university. All of my degrees involved a lot of statistics classes. I am still not a natural maths genius but I earned top grades in all statistics classes though sheer dedication and practice.


+1

Most people don't 'naturally' understand mathematics. Unless and until you learn the steps in solving whatever problem, you won't get it. Only through a ton of practice will you be able to get better and more effective at solving problems. Myself, I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a math wiz but I've taken so many math courses that there was no other way but to get good(a couple more and could've minored in it). Just have to role up your sleeves, tell yourself that you can do it, and practice until you get good.

On a side note, it really gets me when people say, oh I'm just not good at or not smart enough to do math. That's like saying, I'm just not good at or not smart enough to being able to read/write. How much time have you spent on the subject?


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## apx24 (Jan 31, 2012)

Cyzygy said:


> +1
> 
> On a side note, it really gets me when people say, oh I'm just not good at or not smart enough to do math. That's like saying, I'm just not good at or not smart enough to being able to read/write. How much time have you spent on the subject?


11 years. Also got tuition for maths outside of school. Or did I still not work hard enough according to you?

I'll admit, there were times where I had a lot of personal problems which interfered with my studies at school and led me to neglect my work (although I still scored lower in maths than most other subjects), but I was useless at maths, to the extent that my marks were amongst the lowest in the whole school year. And when I did study my arse off, I only got average grades, my confidence and ability were nowhere near high enough to get a high grade in maths.

If you were to give me even a simple mathematical equation, my mind would just 'lock' and I wouldn't be able to think.


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## apx24 (Jan 31, 2012)

Raeden said:


> Just because you went to a good school doesn't mean that it taught _math_ well. Furthermore, a good school can't really help much if you've reached the highschool/college level of math without fully understanding elementary level arithmetic.
> 
> Which further supports my theory that your elementary arithmetic education was seriously deficient, and explains why you experienced great difficulty in picking up math at the highschool level.
> 
> ...


Fine. I'm not going to disagree with you here, whilst the teaching quality was good at my school, continuously getting the lowest grades and the subsequent pressure from my parents to get top grades when I just couldn't do it did play a factor, coupled with the relentless bullying that went on for most of my high school life did affect my ability and willingness to pick up my ability.

But that's the thing, as far as I was concerned, it was a race, you had to do well at that time, retaking was not really an option for me, I was expected to get better at maths and the curriculum would always get progressively more difficult before I could find my feet. I went to an academically selective school, so every other student there was ridiculously intelligent.

I'm just sick of people telling me that all I had to do was work harder. I've had massive arguments with my parents about this, they always say I didn't work as hard as my sister who got top grades in every subject because she was more intelligent than me.

And I actually had an interest in maths, but continuous failure sapped out the enjoyment of it for me, it wasn't that I found it dull, just too difficult to enjoy. I wasn't allowed to give up on it either, I had no choice but to try and work and get the best grade I could. And I did improve, my teachers said they noted my improvement, but I still only got less than 50% for my finals at age 15, and guess what, they were happy with me, because they knew that was the best I was going to get. And I had a great maths teacher as well who taught it well. She knew that I was the poorest kid in the year at maths and she helped me develop some confidence in the subject. That may sound harsh, but I preferred being treated as a 'dumb' (for lack of a better word) kid than be on the same level as all the other smart kids and get overwhelmed.

I've always picked up languages easier than maths, I understand that both have sets of rules that must be followed, but for some reasons I've always picked up languages quickly but I have struggled with maths and science, which are also logical and driven by rules.

And the reason why I thought you went to a top university was because I hear this **** from them all the time. I worked just as hard as these people for my A levels (exams taken at age 17/18 to get into university I did French, History and Politics) and knew just as much as them and I worked hours and hours each day and I couldn't even get the grades to get into university (because I screwed up my exams), I had to phone up low ranked ones until one finally accepted me. So for someone who goes to a good university to look down on me, it makes me really angry.


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## Cyzygy (Feb 21, 2011)

apx24 said:


> 11 years. Also got tuition for maths outside of school. Or did I still not work hard enough according to you?
> 
> I'll admit, there were times where I had a lot of personal problems which interfered with my studies at school and led me to neglect my work (although I still scored lower in maths than most other subjects), but I was useless at maths, to the extent that my marks were amongst the lowest in the whole school year. And when I did study my arse off, I only got average grades, my confidence and ability were nowhere near high enough to get a high grade in maths.
> 
> If you were to give me even a simple mathematical equation, my mind would just 'lock' and I wouldn't be able to think.


Sounds to me like you're just forcing this onto yourself and your brain is just rejecting it. If that's the case you just need to take a break(like a year or so). In my case, there was a 4 year gap between HS and University. Moreover, when I decided to continue my studies, I made a willful/unforced decision and approached math with a completely open mind.

You mention 11 years - when it comes to education it's not so much about quantity but quality. Math for me started from about 2nd grade and went on until part of 12. I say part because I dropped out. That leaves 10.5 years. So guess what, all those years amounted to jack. I had to basically start from elementary math classes(algebra) before I even thought about applying to a University. So tack on another 1 year worth of courses just to get into a University then 5 more years of classical & applied math courses(starting from calculus). That sums up to 17+ years total. So the answer is NO, 11 years is not enough.

I can completely understand when you say your brain 'locks' when you see a math equation. I felt exactly the same way all throughout grade school and on to high school. I told myself that I'm just not good enough and gave up before I even tried - not to mention the fact that one of my HS teachers actually called my dad in and told him that I may be mentally challenged. So if I can do it, you definitely can!


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

The ability to do mathematics is hugely dependent on your state of mind. It's not as simple as saying that if you're bad at it, it's because you didn't do enough work to understand it. You also have to have your mind in the proper mode to see the underlying significance and logic of what you're doing, rather than getting swamped in the minute details of calculations without really knowing which way you're going. So even if you're working hard at it, you might be getting nowhere because you're bogged down in the details and aren't seeing the greater logic. And being depressed or frustrated destroys your ability to gain this clarity. I know this from my own experiences in grad school, even though I'm good at mathematics.

Teaching has a big role in getting the students to see this greater logic too. Unfortunately, teachers very often don't succeed in this. I've even found this with university-level textbooks. They aren't able to communicate the bigger picture that holds together all the little details in a coherent narrative and allows you to navigate them. I've had teaching experience as a TA in university, and I've learned that communicating this coherent narrative is the absolute most important thing. It's the thing you have to spend the most time thinking about, either as a teacher or a student.

And that's the other thing - as a student, it's best to be able to learn at a pace where you have time to understand these things. If you're just trying to remember a whole bunch of procedures for solving particular problems in preparation for a test tomorrow, your learning is going to be much less effective than if you had the time to think about the larger significance of what you're doing. Unfortunately, being in a school environment isn't really conducive to that.


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## apx24 (Jan 31, 2012)

Cyzygy said:


> Sounds to me like you're just forcing this onto yourself and your brain is just rejecting it. If that's the case you just need to take a break(like a year or so). In my case, there was a 4 year gap between HS and University. Moreover, when I decided to continue my studies, I made a willful/unforced decision and approached math with a completely open mind.
> 
> You mention 11 years - when it comes to education it's not so much about quantity but quality. Math for me started from about 2nd grade and went on until part of 12. I say part because I dropped out. That leaves 10.5 years. So guess what, all those years amounted to jack. I had to basically start from elementary math classes(algebra) before I even thought about applying to a University. So tack on another 1 year worth of courses just to get into a University then 5 more years of classical & applied math courses(starting from calculus). That sums up to 17years total. So the answer is NO, 11 years is not enough.
> 
> I can completely understand when you say your brain 'locks' when you see a math equation. I felt exactly the same way all throughout grade school and on to high school. I told myself that I'm just not good enough and gave up before I even tried - not to mention the fact that one of my HS teachers actually called my dad in and told him that I may be mentally challenged. So if I can do it, you definitely can!


So basically, if I want to become somewhat decent at maths, I'd have to work at least another 6 years? Great. I'd have to be pretty damn motivated to study maths again after all those years and to have to put myself through the humiliation of starting elementary school maths again (which is what I would have to do)

I never got the chance to take a break with maths, I had to study it and take exams in it regardless of whether I wanted to or not or whether I was in the right state of mind.

I haven't studied maths since I was 16 now, I gave it up as soon as I got the chance to in 2008 after I got my compulsory GCSE in it.


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## MobiusX (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm not good at math right now, the truth is that I never was, only until I actually tried in 3 college courses, I got A's in those courses, I can't even do basic math in my head, it's hard, I need a calculator for simple math problems, I only got A's because I knew the steps to take to get the math answer and I had a calculator, without a calculator it would have been impossible for anyone in the class, including the professor, to get the answer. It's been years, I suck in math. It was my favorite subject in the short amount of time I attended college though.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Raeden said:


> I decided to argue in this thread because I disagreed that the reason why students fail math is just because they "suck at math". Failure in math is a multifaceted problem that can't just be explained away by students being incompetent. Ignoring all other problems regarding math education and society's general attitude towards math is unfair and absurd.
> 
> I never claimed that it was solely a matter of not applying oneself. Failure to grasp math is also a matter of insufficient math education in most cases. Furthermore, wide-spread math anxiety coming from parents, friends, and general society also probably negatively affects a student's ability to succeed since they likely internalize messages that math is infinitely harder to learn that other subjects.





Cyzygy said:


> On a side note, it really gets me when people say, oh I'm just not good at or not smart enough to do math. That's like saying, I'm just not good at or not smart enough to being able to read/write. How much time have you spent on the subject?


I mean I see where you're coming from but there is a point where it's logical to give up because you are 'bad at maths.' If you were good, you'd have grasped the concepts with effort in a reasonable amount of time.

Given infinite time, most people (disabilities aside,) could be OK with maths, heck with infinite time maybe every 'average' person could be great at it, who knows? Since our lives are finite and full of other things that require attention; it's unlikely though. A shorthand way of explaining this is 'I'm bad at maths'

It just seems to be arguing over semantics really. Saying you're 'bad at maths' is really just saying you can't learn the subject as easily as most people and require more time than anyone is willing to give to you/would be realistic (as Just Lurking said.)

It frees up mental time/energy that could be used on things you're good at. Obviously there are other factors involved too, even people who might be good at maths are being let down by poor education right now.

Also the difference between maths and reading/writing actually, since you compared them earlier in this thread, is that you need reading + writing to get by really (perhaps not so much writing these days with computers but you used to.) Beyond very basic maths (which most people know,) many people never find a use for maths in their everyday life. They will never be forced to learn more complex mathematics in the way they're forced to learn to read.

I'm quoting you as well Cyzygy since most of that post applies to your comment as well.


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## apx24 (Jan 31, 2012)

In a way, I appreciate what Readen and Cyzygy are saying, having mulled over it for a bit. I suppose I could have been decent at maths, but time and circumstance back then meant that it wasn't to be. 

If I was willing to put in the time and effort now, I could be good at maths, but like Persephone the Dread says, I'd be better off focusing on other things.


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## Raeden (Feb 8, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Beyond very basic maths (which most people know,) many people never find a use for maths in their everyday life. They will never be forced to learn more complex mathematics in the way they're forced to learn to read.





apx24 said:


> In a way, I appreciate what Readen and Cyzygy are saying, having mulled over it for a bit. I suppose I could have been decent at maths, but time and circumstance back then meant that it wasn't to be.
> 
> If I was willing to put in the time and effort now, I could be good at maths, but like Persephone the Dread says, I'd be better off focusing on other things.


And that's fine. If someone feels that the rewards of knowing math above everyday vs the effort required to learn it isn't worth it, then whatever. The world needs different sorts of people, and I'm not particularly interested in lowering the value of my skill-set by over saturating the market with math talent. :um

I just dislike the overall sentiment in society that a lot of people just are inherently incapable at understanding math. At one point, I was going down the road of thinking that I was simply bad at math. If I had continued down that path, then I'd probably be in a worse place in my life at the moment.


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## apx24 (Jan 31, 2012)

Raeden said:


> And that's fine. If someone feels that the rewards of knowing math above everyday vs the effort required to learn it isn't worth it, then whatever. The world needs different sorts of people, and I'm not particularly interested in lowering the value of my skill-set by over saturating the market with math talent. :um
> 
> I just dislike the overall sentiment in society that a lot of people just are inherently incapable at understanding math. At one point, I was going down the road of thinking that I was simply bad at math. If I had continued down that path, then I'd probably be in a worse place in my life at the moment.


Yeah man I appreciate talking to you, I know I was bit aggressive before, and I was angry at first, but your post helped see things in a different light so thanks for that.


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## Cyzygy (Feb 21, 2011)

apx24 said:


> So basically, if I want to become somewhat decent at maths, I'd have to work at least another 6 years? Great. I'd have to be pretty damn motivated to study maths again after all those years and to have to put myself through the humiliation of starting elementary school maths again (which is what I would have to do)
> 
> I never got the chance to take a break with maths, I had to study it and take exams in it regardless of whether I wanted to or not or whether I was in the right state of mind.
> 
> I haven't studied maths since I was 16 now, I gave it up as soon as I got the chance to in 2008 after I got my compulsory GCSE in it.


Looks like this is turning into a full-on debate and this is not my intent. I was only trying to provide support based on personal experience. The only point I wanted to make was that if you want to get good at math, it is a very possible and a realistic endeavor. However, you're ambitions and the effort you are willing to put forth to reach those ambitions should match. Otherwise, there's no point.

That "extra" time I spent and the so called "humiliation" to get my degree was well worth it for me - will I ever again have to solve a second order differential equation or perform Fourier analysis on a continuous waveform? Probably not. But for me, the journey was an amazing one and if I'm faced with any problem involving math, I will not simply give up or run away from it because I "just don't get it".


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

Raeden said:


> Besides maybe times tables or something, what is there to memorize?


What is there to memorize? How about everything? What do they teach you? They teach you how to do math. If you forget what they taught you, you won't know what you're doing the next time you sit down to do it. It's just meaningless gibberish.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

Raeden said:


> Just because you went to a good school doesn't mean that it taught _math_ well. Furthermore, a good school can't really help much if you've reached the highschool/college level of math without fully understanding elementary level arithmetic.
> 
> *Ultimately, math is like learning a language.* You're going to have a hard time communicating if you try to write a novel in German before you can even conjugate in the present tense and only have a vocabulary of 68 words. These things need to be gradually learned while ensuring that prerequisite knowledge is fully grasped.


I've heard this before, that math is language because it basically is, you're learning which things go where and HOW, mostly importantly to use this language to makes sense of things and get the end result. I'd also agree that you can't advance to higher math if you don't see math in a way to where you go to higher classes and not struggle there.



extremly said:


> Thank you for making this thread OP sometimes it feels everyone is a math genius, luckily I'm not alone here. I'm also a recovering bad math student.
> 
> Was not always bad at math but at some point from 6th grade to 8th grade I said Fuh it and it was all downhill from there.
> 
> ...


I would agree with you, but again everyone learns things differently. The thing with math though is that you cannot use brute force and hard thinking to arrive at a conclusion or else you'll just tired yourself out. Someone, like a teacher, who's experienced in math can show you a much easier way of doing things things (like my brother did) before simply because they've have had experinece and can see problems from all sorts of views. Like, I said, abstract thinking has a lot to do with math and not just doing one problem over and over again. That's what I felt like I was doing in high school, making sure I put the right numbers into a formula so I could get the answer they wanted on a page. I didn't actually "figure" anything out, so I passed mostly with Bs. That is.. I didn't get great at it.



Ape in space said:


> The ability to do mathematics is hugely dependent on your state of mind. It's not as simple as saying that if you're bad at it, it's because you didn't do enough work to understand it. You also have to have your mind in the proper mode to see the underlying significance and logic of what you're doing, rather than getting swamped in the minute details of calculations without really knowing which way you're going. So even if you're working hard at it, you might be getting nowhere because you're bogged down in the details and aren't seeing the greater logic. And being depressed or frustrated destroys your ability to gain this clarity. I know this from my own experiences in grad school, even though I'm good at mathematics.
> 
> Teaching has a big role in getting the students to see this greater logic too. Unfortunately, teachers very often don't succeed in this. I've even found this with university-level textbooks. They aren't able to communicate the bigger picture that holds together all the little details in a coherent narrative and allows you to navigate them. I've had teaching experience as a TA in university, and I've learned that communicating this coherent narrative is the absolute most important thing. It's the thing you have to spend the most time thinking about, either as a teacher or a student.
> 
> And that's the other thing - as a student, it's best to be able to learn at a pace where you have time to understand these things. If you're just trying to remember a whole bunch of procedures for solving particular problems in preparation for a test tomorrow, your learning is going to be much less effective than if you had the time to think about the larger significance of what you're doing. Unfortunately, being in a school environment isn't really conducive to that.


Totally agree (and sorry for the massive quoting of blocks of texts. But again, learning in itself involves a clear head. You can't think or comprehend straight with a lot of stress occupying space in your brain or confusion. There's a study out there, I'm sure, some study correlating learning with stress. Too much energy is devoted (by your brain) to stressing out rather than learning, so with math it could be totally b a combination of "I don't get it" and to a lesser extent, "I can't focus." Uh.. I'd say the real goal is to teach someone until they say "Oh I get it" rather than.. here's what it should look like. Do this. But again, teaching is hard for the person who might not know how to get someone else to understand, you know?



WillYouStopDave said:


> What is there to memorize? How about everything? What do they teach you? They teach you how to do math. If you forget what they taught you, you won't know what you're doing the next time you sit down to do it. It's just meaningless gibberish.


Although I can understand memory to a point, I also want to point out that the way they start kids on learning math is by memorizing multiplication tables and all that. Memorizing helps up to that extent when you're a kid and the rest is figuring it out by yourself, so in higher classes, there is really is no memorization, just properties and statements that say "This is how numbers work" (aka identities, properties, formulas). So yeah. I didn't know this but the other day, someone told me/reminded me that multiplication (7X4) is basically just addition, adding 7+7+7+7. Makes sense right? duh. But it just makes it easier for kids to do because there are only so many fingers you can use and it's basically a shortcut. But then I can understand, if you don't have the memory and you also don't care to know anymore, it's alright, the knowledge just goes out the window.

I suppose I wanted to add more because I still believe in human intelligence and what the brain is capable of doing. If humans can master intruments, learn how to make fire, stab a fish despite the refraction light in water and build houses, freaking build the Parthenon, why not everyone can learn maths. I suppose it takes time, practice but also the right (or more correctly, the efficient) way of learning. My geometry teacher used to say, "Work smarter, not harder!" I grumble to myself and say, "yeah, he's right. I feel dumb" but it's just uh, things, lots of problems get in the way. One of them being stress, first.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

coeur_brise said:


> Although I can understand memory to a point, I also want to point out that the way they start kids on learning math is by memorizing multiplication tables and all that. Memorizing helps up to that extent when you're a kid and the rest is figuring it out by yourself, so in higher classes, there is really is no memorization, just properties and statements that say "This is how numbers work" (aka identities, properties, formulas). So yeah. I didn't know this but the other day, someone told me/reminded me that multiplication (7X4) is basically just addition, adding 7+7+7+7. Makes sense right? duh. But then I can understand, if you don't have the memory but you also don't care to know anymore, it's alright, the knowledge just goes out the window.
> 
> I suppose I wanted to add more because I still believe in human intelligence and what the brain is capable of doing. If humans can master intruments, learn how to make fire, stab a fish despite the refraction light in water and build houses, freaking build the Parthenon, why not everyone can learn maths. I suppose it takes time, practice but also the right (or more correctly, the efficient) way of learning. My geometry teacher used to say, "Work smarter, not harder!" That's what I want to do eventually, it's just uh. lot of problems get in the way. One of them being stress, first.


 Well, what I was trying to say is not everyone is the same. Some people can do it if they really try and some people just can't. Otherwise, everyone would be capable of being Einstein (or whomever). That's obviously not going to happen.

I guess you never know unless you try but I tried many times and I never got anywhere. Most importantly for me was that I didn't need to learn it. There wasn't any point in it.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

WillYouStopDave said:


> Well, what I was trying to say is not everyone is the same. Some people can do it if they really try and some people just can't. Otherwise, everyone would be capable of being Einstein (or whomever). That's obviously not going to happen.


They are, in some ways. Einstein, Tesla, Newton, and Ramanujan thought about and worker harder at math more than anyone else. It was an uncontrollable obsession to them.

If you did math for sixteen to twenty hours a day for most of your life, you'd be as good as they were too.


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

Sacrieur said:


> They are, in some ways. Einstein, Tesla, Newton, and Ramanujan thought about and worker harder at math more than anyone else. It was an uncontrollable obsession to them.
> 
> If you did math for sixteen to twenty hours a day for most of your life, you'd be as good as they were too.


 If the average person did math for 16 hours a day and a genius did the same, the genius would surpass the average person by a long shot.


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

Some of you are almost completely disregarding the effects of intelligence on math ability. Sure, an unintelligent person can eventually become decent at math with practice but they will struggle in school because they can't learn the material quickly and easily enough. They may not understand certain concepts at all without extremely personalized intervention. I don't understand why it's to hard for people to accept that some people are inherently better than certain things than others.


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## FixMeNow (Aug 20, 2014)

Computation-based math (calculus, etc.) can be learned by anyone with half a brain provided that they have the necessary preliminary knowledge of algebra/trig/arithmetic, but I wouldn't consider it to be any measure of 'real' math. However, theoretical math is a whole other beast that only a very small minority of people would be able to grasp (and the less numbers are involved, the more theoretical it becomes). I also wouldn't say that making computation mistakes should be factored into determining math ability, in the same sense that spelling or grammar mistakes shouldn't really be factored into creative writing ability.

I will say that having mathematical 'gaps' in one's education is the only real reason that I think any semi-intelligent adult would struggle with _applied_ math. I would never take anyone seriously who claimed to be intelligent if they were genuinely bad at _applied_ math. I will also say that there are definitely not enough people in the North American education system who emphasize math over 'fluffy' subjects, since developing mathematical skill is fundamental to becoming an enlightened citizen and will transfer to every other aspect of life.

A side note: back in the spring, I took an official IQ test administered by my psychologist in which I scored in the 95th percentile of the population in the applied math section, and the only reason I didn't score higher was because of computation errors. She also informed me that I was one of only 2 people she had ever administered the test to who had made it all the way to the very end of that section (the last question was an integral, which isn't learned until the end of most students' first university-level calculus course). It didn't make me feel proud at all, however, because I know that everyone else who failed to complete 100% of that section simply lacked the opportunity to learn all the material up until that point. However, a lack of opportunity to learn certain things in life isn't really a "choice" for anyone.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

InfiniteBlaze said:


> If the average person did math for 16 hours a day and a genius did the same, the genius would surpass the average person by a long shot.


They're a genius because they worked that long.


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## TenYears (Jan 15, 2010)

I'm not sure. It's always just seemed easy to me, and I've always liked it as far back as elementary school. I just have a knack for it I guess...maybe it's genetic haha, idk. I was usually able to learn whatever concepts were taught in school that day, and do the homework without much of a problem. I actually liked getting math homework because I knew I could knock it out pretty quickly. I always really, really struggled with science, biology, chemistry, anything along those lines. I would have to study my @zz off just to get a C.


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

Sacrieur said:


> They're a genius because they worked that long.


Genius is something you're born with.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

Sacrieur said:


> They're a genius because they worked that long.


In my opinion, I think it's both nature and nurture. Like with some people and cooking. Same with artists that draw. Some are both born with natural ability to reproduce what they see and they only get better over time. However, there are proven methods that you can learn how to draw and not 100% of it is pure talent. Same with math, you can learn math and not have 100% of it intuitive knowledge.

I'm pretty sure Einstein had simple genius to begin with paired with devotion to the subject which naturally leads to intense interest and curiosity. In fact I'm willing to assume he even dreamed in terms of math. Besides, his brain showed a closer connection between his brain hemispheres possibly contributing to his genius. The point I really wanted to make is that geniuses become that way definitely because of a combo if work and natural talent. But since everyone is not Einstein or a naturally "made" genius, it's hard to approach genius levels even with extreme input, unless it's something physical like playing an instrument or piano or something in which case, you just become proficient. But you don't become a composer or anything (which is genius).

Math is a subject that's simply not entirely rote and practice. If it was, I'd be great at it because I was a straight A student during high school and retained very few math concepts afterward and am trying to make up for it now. Never failed a class, got as far as trig, memorized all the trig properties, degrees angles, sine and cosine ratios and well, am I math whiz? Not in the least, its a form of thinking, an interesting one at that.

And as a last reminder, there are books where you can learn to write better. One of the best books explaining the basics of good writing is about a 100 pages long. Compared to math, in which i really don't know of great math aid as of yet. That's how complicated it csn be and why not everyone can put in the same time and get the same results. Sorry this turned into a ramble, I think I'll probably stop yapping about the way I see things.

Edit: and as a last word, I really don't think you should give up on something if you think you cant possibly ever get it. I know I contradicted myself choosing nature over nurture part, but you can nurture in-born nature barring any major mental handicaps.


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## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

I think it's just the way one's wired to think.


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## Tumbling Destiny (May 13, 2012)

^ Regarding the points above, I definitely agree that mathematical ability (and most other abilities) are a product of nature and nurture, and it would seem quite hard to deny this. There is no question we all start from a different point genetics-wise, and that a certain environment will foster better ability.

Specifically for math, I think that people born with a good sense of logic (or at least a strong desire for it) are likely to have an advantage. People that can understand a clear cause and effect and how a system works. Personally (let's realize that memory is NOT a strength of mine) I remember it always being something that made sense quickly and completely for me. At least for early math, there is no gray area and there is only right and wrong. I think I was drawn to the subject given natural personality inclinations, and this combined with my dad trying to teach me slightly more advanced stuff (e.g. multiplication at 6 or 7) for my age gave me an advantage. I used to be the master of straight-up calculations, but problem-solving I was relatively a lot more lacking in. So it would seem like there can also be pretty different subdivisions of "math". I don't really remember practicing math outside of school too much at all, but my memory can really be quite atrocious.


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## KILOBRAVO (Sep 17, 2011)

i HAVE some degree of natural ability with maths... I can learn it well and good, but if I dont practice it .. I forget a good deal of it..... but the '' learned intuition'' remains. 

algebra adn all that .... I am quite good at.


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## ravens (Aug 31, 2011)

I was OK in school with math. Although I didn't go any farther than taking Algebra in the ninth grade.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

Sold my soul to the calculus wizard.

...

Really, I'm mostly good at fast mental calculations and figuring out change fast.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Sacrieur said:


> They're a genius because they worked that long.


lol...wow.


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## PhilipJ (Nov 25, 2014)

well, i am bad at maths.

in my early life i was almost systematically turned off mathematics by my inept/sadistic teachers. they constantly criticised me for not understanding them, made an example of me in front of the class every day, repeatedly said i was "too slow to catch a cold" from a very young age...it was a bad time.

that environment flicked a switch in my head, almost like it turned off my ability to learn mathematics, because of how anxious and worthless it made me feel. obviously, i can do everything that i need to get through daily life (addition, multiplication, etc.) but the conditioning that these people put me through, created a giant wall of angst and self-loathing around the subject, and it has cost me very dearly.

here i am with an IQ of 120 and i can't even do algebra aimed at a 12 y/o because it makes me furious.


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## Boertjie (Aug 7, 2014)

I am genetically blessed with high intelligence


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

tbyrfan said:


> lol...wow.


You really don't think working that long has a permanent structural effect on the brain?

If you want to artificially limit your potential because by refusing to acknowledge that genius is 99% hard work, then feel free to keep being bad at math.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Sacrieur said:


> You really don't think working that long has a permanent structural effect on the brain?
> 
> If you want to artificially limit your potential because by refusing to acknowledge that genius is 99% hard work, then feel free to keep being bad at math.


You have no idea what you're talking about. Wow...I just can't believe people actually think this way. Wow.


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## BAH (Feb 12, 2012)

Textbooks,doing every problem from every page over and over.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

Sacrieur said:


> If you want to artificially limit your potential because by refusing to acknowledge that genius is 99% hard work, then feel free to keep being bad at math.


I'm still not sure I agree with this. You say 99% is hard work? That seems rather high. And again sorry if its redundant but using Einstein as an example, he was quoted as saying "I never failed in mathematics," .. "Before I was fifteen I had mastered differential and integral calculus." source: Time article http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1936731_1936743_1936758,00.html

I can't imagine that as being truly hard work, wracking your brain as a kid if he'd gained proficiency by the age of 15. Its work yes, but I mean, ****, that's stuff people learn in late high school and college AND if they've already understood the basic concepts. The one thing I'm sure 99% of the hard work Einstein devoted toward and ended up in was forming his theory of relativity. Again, something like that takes a hell of a lot of hard thinking/work. Now I gotta catch up with that, I suppose. Half-kidding.

Edit: I will admit amd point out there's often a psychological block where if you think you'll be bad at a subject, then you'll probably end up being bad at it. I'll say that's the rule rather than the exception and that's where the "hard work" comes in handy. I guess i gotta shut up and start getting at it then. The human brain is not as simple as you'd think if you could just do something a lot and be great. I'm sure there are a lot of people that sing a lot...badly.


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## apx24 (Jan 31, 2012)

Sacrieur said:


> You really don't think working that long has a permanent structural effect on the brain?
> 
> If you want to artificially limit your potential because by refusing to acknowledge that genius is 99% hard work, then feel free to keep being bad at math.


****ing hell. Just admit it, you're wrong here. Yes, doing something repetitively can make someone better at something, but a genius isn't just good at something.

Think of the millions of people that study maths around the world every day, you'd think that there would be more maths geniuses around the world wouldn't you?

Let's look at other things like music and sport, why are some musicians and sportspeople more successful than others, simply because they practice more?


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## Charmander (Sep 5, 2012)

A good teacher and practising by myself, through Youtube videos etc, though I also went and bought an interactive CD to help me with my exam. Went from a consistent D to an A*, probably my best achievement. 
I'll just say that methods are the most important thing, and recognising when certain questions are asked in an exam, since they often hide what they're trying to ask you. I got better once I concentrated on step-by-step methods rather than trying to figure out the answer by myself.

Strongly depends on the teacher as well. For GCSE level (15-16) he was the best ever; took me out of the bottom group, where I was literally learning how to write numbers as words. (Eighty-two etc, no idea why) but the top group had a terrible teacher and their grades were very poor. My lecturer at my first uni (We had a maths module for no reason) was terrible and I learnt solely from Youtube tutorials.

And sorry Sacrieur, you're fighting a losing battle. Everyone has their mental strengths. I'll never be brilliant at mental maths, but I know enough to pass an exam when I need to.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

coeur_brise said:


> I'm still not sure I agree with this. You say 99% is hard work? That seems rather high. And again sorry if its redundant but using Einstein as an example, he was quoted as saying "I never failed in mathematics," .. "Before I was fifteen I had mastered differential and integral calculus." source: Time article http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1936731_1936743_1936758,00.html
> 
> I can't imagine that as being truly hard work, wracking your brain as a kid if he'd gained proficiency by the age of 15. Its work yes, but I mean, ****, that's stuff people learn in late high school and college AND if they've already understood the basic concepts. The one thing I'm sure 99% of the hard work Einstein devoted toward and ended up in was forming his theory of relativity. Again, something like that takes a hell of a lot of hard thinking/work. Now I gotta catch up with that, I suppose. Half-kidding.
> 
> Edit: I will admit amd point out there's often a psychological block where if you think you'll be bad at a subject, then you'll probably end up being bad at it. I'll say that's the rule rather than the exception and that's where the "hard work" comes in handy. I guess i gotta shut up and start getting at it then. The human brain is not as simple as you'd think if you could just do something a lot and be great. I'm sure there are a lot of people that sing a lot...badly.


Einstein had the right nurturing environment to allow him to work that hard. He had an uncle that would bring him books that he could study. Mastering integral calculus is not terribly complicated or difficult and even with his heavy study, took him two years. By comparison, top performers learn it in one at 17 or 18.



apx24 said:


> ****ing hell. Just admit it, you're wrong here. Yes, doing something repetitively can make someone better at something, but a genius isn't just good at something.


He was bollocks at subjects he didn't study.



> Think of the millions of people that study maths around the world every day, you'd think that there would be more maths geniuses around the world wouldn't you?


There are, we call them theoretical mathematicians. While Einstein was by no means bad at math, he did need help in doing some of the math for his theories (tensor calculus comes to mind).



> Let's look at other things like music and sport, why are some musicians and sportspeople more successful than others, simply because they practice more?


Athletics boils down to cheating or genetic components because the upper limit placed on just how much hard work you can do. The brain has an upper limit too, but because of neuroplasticity, it will change to give people superhuman abilities. There's a Japanese kind of school called Soroban where students learn to do math on an abacus. After mastering the talent, the users can do high speed mental calculation with large numbers.

---

Working for the sake of working hard won't get you great at mathematics. A rigorous application of inquisition into underlying mechanisms and practice of figuring out solutions, not plugging them into formulas that you don't even know where came from.

One example: you know the quadratic formula? Know where it comes from? If not, solve for x:

a*x² + b*x + c = 0

And throw out your graphing calculators, they're a worthless crutch. I've never needed one in any of my math classes.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

Anxietype said:


> show me another person that can do this with just hard work.


Being a human calculator is exceptionally rare, and there are people who possess remarkable memory capabilities.

These are not a valid example for demonstrating mathematical ability, only calculation and working memory. Even if they demonstrated phenomenal problem solving ability, it would still have little weight against any of my arguments.

It's being ignored that the majority of people in the poll attribute their own math success to hard work and study. This simple fact is met with denial.

---

The only reason I'm better at math than any of you is because I worked harder. Before you get yourselves all in a fit perhaps you should realize that when my math teachers gave me my textbooks, I didn't just do a few extra problems and stay after school for half an hour to walk through a problem, or hire a tutor. I stayed after school for two, sometimes three hours doing problem after problem.

I did every problem in every textbook I received. I lived and breathed math. I would do calculations in my head just to see what would happen. I would write patterns down in textbooks, filling them up, just to see if anything interesting would show up.

So no, don't tell me that you just can't do it. It's because you're not willing to put in the sheer effort required to become a real master of something. And sure, I have a fascination with numbers many of you don't have. But don't think for a minute talent just fell into my lap. I worked harder and longer, and that's the only reason.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

Sacrieur said:


> ---
> 
> Working for the sake of working hard won't get you great at mathematics. A rigorous application of inquisition into underlying mechanisms and practice of figuring out solutions, not plugging them into formulas that you don't even know where came from.
> 
> ...


This seems a bit like a slap in the face when at first you were saying, just work harder at it because 99% of the time, its from hard work. You're not trying hard enough, then to go on and say wait a minute, I actually meant understand it more. Which can be moot because *some* people have a harder time understanding concepts in the first place. Yes, if they took the time to understand them then of course they would have much more of a knowledge base to build on rather than spending ten hours trying to figure out something you don't understand. The thing with logic is that you can't spend hours thinking about a problem and then, tada you get logic, that's where I asked about whether people attribute it to basic logic of math. OR practice.

To quote old Albert Einstein again: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." Essentially it says, you can't approach the problem in the same fashion that you've been approaching it with which, if it turns out in failure, is probably why most people put down their math books. Consequently if you have no cluge what you're doing, it'd help immensely to have am idea of what you are doing so you can get somewhere. But being that math is not a strength for everyone, its not as eady for them to accelerate in the same fashion you did. So much for "hard work." Others people's brains don't quite work out that way, which is why I posed the option of "it boils down to logical thinking." Abstract thinking is a huge part in mathematics. Again, logic is hard to teach because it doesn't function to same way as physical or even cellular memory, something which teachers expect you to do (rote) moreso than thinking about **** in a way you can comprehend, that makes logical sense.

It's great that you're great in math, but just don't go around telling people they need to jus get smarter at something.


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## SD92 (Nov 9, 2013)

I guess they were blessed with Mathamatical skill, learnt to count to 100 as a baby and progressed from there.

I'm poor at Maths only acheiving a D at GCSE. But a lot of that was down to the teacher who had no idea how to control the class, and spend at least half of each lesson shouting at them as they talked utter gibberish.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Sacrieur said:


> The only reason I'm better at math than any of you is because I worked harder. Before you get yourselves all in a fit perhaps you should realize that when my math teachers gave me my textbooks, I didn't just do a few extra problems and stay after school for half an hour to walk through a problem, or hire a tutor. I stayed after school for two, sometimes three hours doing problem after problem.
> 
> I did every problem in every textbook I received. I lived and breathed math. I would do calculations in my head just to see what would happen. I would write patterns down in textbooks, filling them up, just to see if anything interesting would show up.
> 
> So no, don't tell me that you just can't do it. It's because you're not willing to put in the sheer effort required to become a real master of something. And sure, I have a fascination with numbers many of you don't have. But don't think for a minute talent just fell into my lap. I worked harder and longer, and that's the only reason.


How did you find time to study other subjects? You are aware some people start off below average at almost everything so they can't devote two-three hours a night just on one subject? Or are you a robot that doesn't sleep?


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Everyone stop responding to him, he's trolling.


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