# The cure is sensitizing dopamine receptors.



## Thechemicals

All of you seem to think that increasing dopamine is the way to go

probably because youve read about dopamines effects on anxeity right?

so you thought okay, lets increase our dopamine then?

well its not as simple as that, people with social anxeity lack the dopamine receptors
so rewarding things like socialising with people that should be natural and unhibited, become awkward and difficult because your dopamine receptors are desentized.

Simply increasing dopamine may even further decrease your receptors so that is not a long term strategy.

So far the only things that have been reported to increase dopamine receptors are exercise, abstinence from ejaculation, stopping addictions like pornography and fasting.

Is there any other more effective way to increase your dopamine receptors?


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## Foh_Teej

?? i think id rather have the side effects of drugs


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## istayhome

I don't know about how well this will work for everyone. I used to bicycle to deal with SA. I spent months bicycling 60 miles a day. Then I bicycled across the country. It got to the point where I bicycled 250 miles straight, I could pass out but I couldn't out-ride the anxiety, it only got worse. Keep in mind I wasn't using any drugs and was at a caloric deficit from burning so many calories. In the past I've used daily running and weight training along with meditation, I've fasted for days, been abstinent, been on diets stretching all the way to lowfat raw vegan and calorie restriction with optimal nutrition diets. There were definitely times I felt very euphoric but I can honestly say that nothing has had a significant effect on general anxiety, social anxiety or panic attacks.

Of course finding the most conducive lifestyle to easing one's particular stressors is important. As is a healthy diet and exercise along with a life of moderation. But I've never been able to increase the sensitivity of my dopamine receptors by doing any of that. 

I even spent years forcing myself to just go into the city daily and talk to people, making and keeping recreational arrangements with friends and acquaintances, etc. But the social anxiety only got worse and I never really got any joy out of these experiences nor any type of healing. Damn, looking back on all of this really makes me feel hopeless. I'd say I tried just about everything for 7 years before I ever started taking medication. 

You have some good points and non-medication options help a lot of people. But from my own experience I am forced to admit that there is a degree of this that is simply mental illness and it cannot be corrected physically, if at all. 

Maybe some neurologists can look into implanting synthetic neurons and receptor sites into the patients brains. They also have to make those neurons and others fire the right amount of the right neurotransmitters so that we all feel and behave "normal." Of course that sounds like science fiction to me. I would much prefer it if I had been able to correct the anxiety I experience on my own, medication has definitely been a last resort.


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## jonny neurotic

I'd like to see some papers on this. And don't direct me to that "yourbrainonporn" site. I have looked at it and it says nothin of any consequence. Just a bunch of stuff about rats mating habits and sexual arousal increasing dopamine. You may as well include sexual intercourse in that. 

Increasing dopamine does not necessarily lead to downregulation. If there is a problem with binding of the dopamine receptors then they are being understimulated. If that is the case then why don't they just upregulate? I don't see how exercise could upregulate dopamine when it increases dopamine release. 

Provide some evidence to back these assertions up. Thanks...


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## jonny neurotic

OK. I accept that exercise increases D2 binding. But the abstinence bit is not in evidence...


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## tornadobill

Avioid dopamine agonist. They play a role in drug addiction(cocaine,meth,alcohol and others).They are impicated in schizophrenia and other mental ills.


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## istayhome

mmmmm meth, yes that should help ease one's anxiety... wait I think I heard somewhere that crack is better.

on a serious note. I've never heard/read anything to suggest that abstinence should improve social anxiety via dopamine receptors. I think a lot of people with severe social anxiety end up being abstinent anyways. So if abstinence were the answer then social anxiety should be self curing disease. 

Obviously if one were using sex, porn, masturbation as an escape/addiction then that would not be helpful. But I fail to see how abstinence would be of any help. If that were the case then there should be a statistically significant reduced proportion of unmarried practicing Christians, Muslims, Hindis, etc. who experience mental illness. Someone's gonna need to do a study.


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## imrj

tornadobill said:


> Avioid dopamine agonist. They play a role in drug addiction(cocaine,meth,alcohol and others).They are impicated in schizophrenia and other mental ills.


depends on the individual...its all about dopamine receptor density in the PFC and the Limbic/NAc....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20526584


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## reef88

Not entirely true. Dopamine is not the cause of social anxiety. Benzodiazepines have nothing to do with Dopamine neurotransmitters and they temporarily cure social anxiety.

SSRI's also help to cure social anxiety, I used Zoloft for 6 months and it basically cured me. SSRI's don't work with Dopamine, they work with Serotonin.

So you can't just come out and say that Dopamine receptors are the ones to blame.


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## GreenBean09

Blast! There goes my strategy of temporarily abusing amphetamines to allegedly unclog my dopamine receptors. According to you I don't HAVE the receptors??


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## contranigma

istayhome said:


> I would much prefer it if I had been able to correct the anxiety I experience on my own, medication has definitely been a last resort.


What's the medication you take? Does it help?


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## GotAnxiety

Maybe it just muscular tension cause from a inactive modern day lifestyle i dunno about abstinence from ejaculation u ever hear the phrase use it or lose it, were all animals but modern day society has preprogram us too think otherwise, seem's like the illegal is the best way too go about it mushrooms and weed anyone? at least you won't have too deal with persistent withdrawal syndromes which seem acceptable by doctor's.

I was thinking about trying wellbutrin and dexedrine but this might be a big mistake i don't ever wanna take an ssri again i get so restless make me feel like a weakling what if you ever got into a fight on that stuff you would get killed i've been thinking about it alot wellbutrin might be a good idea but AMP's dexedrine make's you lose your motivation and adderall make ya feel like a crack ***** after awhile but the get up and go of the levo is nice doesn't make sense they don't just got a go pill with that for Attentive add d amp cause alot of depression which is probably the down regulation .


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## istayhome

Xanax and valium have helped a lot with anxiety. I've tried six ssri/snri's all made things worse. I'm currently trying lamictal on the chance I have bipolar II. If this doesn't work I'm going keep trying to get a stimulant for depression.


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## Thechemicals

jonny neurotic said:


> I'd like to see some papers on this. And don't direct me to that "yourbrainonporn" site. I have looked at it and it says nothin of any consequence. Just a bunch of stuff about rats mating habits and sexual arousal increasing dopamine. You may as well include sexual intercourse in that.
> 
> Increasing dopamine does not necessarily lead to downregulation. If there is a problem with binding of the dopamine receptors then they are being understimulated. If that is the case then why don't they just upregulate? I don't see how exercise could upregulate dopamine when it increases dopamine release.
> 
> Provide some evidence to back these assertions up. Thanks...


http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=174018
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203084254.htm

Seems like social anxeity is linked to abnormal dopamine receptors.
Ive had first hand experiance with this aswell, my social anxeity gets worse when im on the computer all day long and surfing message boards. Then when i go outside interacting with people is less fun and im left not knowing what to say or do.

But i had a problem with my computer with prevented me for accessing it for about 2 weeks, i was left in complete boredom and suddenly found myself going outside more and when i did it was if i was high 24/7 simply being in the presence of other people. My confidence skyrocketed and i could literally yell across the street to strangers which i woudlnt dream of doing when i was spending most of my day online.
Then i got my computer working again and ive lost that social energy and lack of inhibition i had during my computer abstinence.

I dont think its something as simple as porn, i think its overstimulation in general to a point where normal social situations dont give us that rush that where supposed to get, and therefore we never wire our brains to seek out these social experiances.


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## Thechemicals

GreenBean09 said:


> Blast! There goes my strategy of temporarily abusing amphetamines to allegedly unclog my dopamine receptors. According to you I don't HAVE the receptors??


Everyone has dopamine receptors, but people suffering from social anxeity have desensitized ones. So it takes more stimulation to acheive the same high than would a regular person. So things like being in a group socializing dont give you the same rush and your left not knowing what to say or do right?
So yeh amphetamines would temporarily cure your social anxeity as they boost your dopamine, but only for the time that you take them. So after they wear of your left with even further desentized receptors.
Now when your in a social situation you will feel even more awkward and even more nervous because you have even less receptors.
The key is making your receptors sensitive enough so that you get rewarded with dopamine simply by interacting with people, and arent forced to take stimulants or alcohol.


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## Thechemicals

istayhome said:


> mmmmm meth, yes that should help ease one's anxiety... wait I think I heard somewhere that crack is better.
> 
> on a serious note. I've never heard/read anything to suggest that abstinence should improve social anxiety via dopamine receptors. I think a lot of people with severe social anxiety end up being abstinent anyways. So if abstinence were the answer then social anxiety should be self curing disease.
> 
> Obviously if one were using sex, porn, masturbation as an escape/addiction then that would not be helpful. But I fail to see how abstinence would be of any help. If that were the case then there should be a statistically significant reduced proportion of unmarried practicing Christians, Muslims, Hindis, etc. who experience mental illness. Someone's gonna need to do a study.


I never said abstinence is the cure, all i said is that abstinence is one of the things that increases dopamine receptors. I cant find a study at the moment proving this.
But i do know that dopamine receptor density has been proven to correlate with social anxeity, and dopamine receptor sensitivity and density is largely enviromental and can be influenced by a number of things.
So increasing dopamine receptors rather than dopamine itself is the way to go if you want a long term not temporary cure.


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## Inshallah

So the cure is actually exposure, who would have thought? Most of us not stuck in the 'born with the wrong chemical makeup' discourse knew this already


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## Thechemicals

Inshallah said:


> So the cure is actually exposure, who would have thought? Most of us not stuck in the 'born with the wrong chemical makeup' discourse knew this already


Well you cant just go on the exposure route without removing the other sources of high dopamine from your life, i know this sounds like im telling you not to enjoy yourself.
But you have to really question what you want in life, do you want to be inside gaming, watching TV and surfing the web. Or do you want to have lots of freinds, lots of great memories, lots of sex(hopefully) and live life to the fullest.

Exposure only works if youve got the dopamine receptors to experiance it.


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## reef88

Thechemicals said:


> Everyone has dopamine receptors, but people suffering from social anxeity have desensitized ones. So it takes more stimulation to acheive the same high than would a regular person. So things like being in a group socializing dont give you the same rush and your left not knowing what to say or do right?
> So yeh amphetamines would temporarily cure your social anxeity as they boost your dopamine, but only for the time that you take them. So after they wear of your left with even further desentized receptors.
> Now when your in a social situation you will feel even more awkward and even more nervous because you have even less receptors.
> The key is making your receptors sensitive enough so that you get rewarded with dopamine simply by interacting with people, and arent forced to take stimulants or alcohol.


Like I said before, it's not all dopamine. Benzos temporarily cure social anxiety and they work with GABA, not dopamine. Anxiety is nothing more than over excitability of the neurons, and GABA agonists like benzos make the neurotransmitter GABA work a bit harder, therefore calming you down.

It may be true that dopamine increases talkativeness, confidence, and even self-esteem. Drugs like cocaine can do that, for a short amount of time. But dopamine is not the only thing responsible for social anxiety. It's more complex than just that.

"*Other neurotransmitters*
Some scientists hypothesize that social phobia is related to an imbalance of the brain chemical serotonin. A recent study reports increased Serotonin transporter binding in psychotropic medication-naive patients with generalized social anxiety disorder. Although there is not much evidence of abnormality in Serotonin neurotransmission, the limited efficacy of medications which affect serotonin levels may indicate the role of this pathway. Paroxetine and Sertraline are two SSRIs that have been confirmed by the FDA to treat social anxiety disorder. Some researchers believe that SSRIs decrease the activity of the Amygdala. There is also increasing focus on other candidate transmitters, e.g. Norepinephrine and Glutamate, which may be over-active in social anxiety disorder, and the inhibitory transmitter GABA, which may be under-active."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anxiety_disorder#Neural_mechanisms


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## Inshallah

Thechemicals said:


> Well you cant just go on the exposure route without removing the other sources of high dopamine from your life, i know this sounds like im telling you not to enjoy yourself.
> But you have to really question what you want in life, do you want to be inside gaming, watching TV and surfing the web. Or do you want to have lots of freinds, lots of great memories, lots of sex(hopefully) and live life to the fullest.
> 
> Exposure only works if youve got the dopamine receptors to experiance it.


I agree with you, but rather than looking at it from a chemical point of view, I prefer to look at it as "living a normal life" and the chemicals will follow suit.


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## Inshallah

My social anxiety was best when I lived a normal life, did what everyone else does, and didn't think about this 'social anxiety' thing. I also didn't have the diagnosis yet at that time.

Then when I had the diagnosis, became familiar with it, started on meds and therapy etc. All went downhill fast.

I firmly believe there is nothing wrong with us AT ALL, it's all in our head. Our self chosen solitude is what created it. What we probably do all have is an abnormally high level of neuroticism, which combined with avoidance is what brought us here.


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## Thechemicals

reef88 said:


> Like I said before, it's not all dopamine. Benzos temporarily cure social anxiety and they work with GABA, not dopamine. Anxiety is nothing more than over excitability of the neurons, and GABA agonists like benzos make the neurotransmitter GABA work a bit harder, therefore calming you down.
> 
> It may be true that dopamine increases talkativeness, confidence, and even self-esteem. Drugs like cocaine can do that, for a short amount of time. But dopamine is not the only thing responsible for social anxiety. It's more complex than just that.


Yes there may be other underlying causes, but the fact is low dopamine receptors is one of them. Basically what you are saying is if we cant elimate everysingle cause, then why bother at all? During my week of no stimulation apart from my daily outings, my anxeity was completely gone. I about ten times more confident than the average person, yes i may have only tackled one side of the problem, but that was enough to completely overide the symptoms and have me functioning more than your average person.
That is success isnt it? And there was no comedown, since i had simply increased my dopamine receptor sensitivity to a point where i could wire my brain to social situations.


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## reef88

Thechemicals said:


> Yes there may be other underlying causes, but the fact is low dopamine receptors is one of them. Basically what you are saying is if we cant elimate everysingle cause, then why bother at all? During my week of no stimulation apart from my daily outings, my anxeity was completely gone. I about ten times more confident than the average person, yes i may have only tackled one side of the problem, but that was enough to completely overide the symptoms and have me functioning more than your average person.
> That is success isnt it? And there was no comedown, since i had simply increased my dopamine receptor sensitivity to a point where i could wire my brain to social situations.


I could say the same about Xanax, I take it 30 minutes before going to class and I'm 10 times more confident, and this has nothing to do with Dopamine.

Not even scientists know the exact mechanism of which social anxiety works, it probably is the abnormality of the functions of several neurotransmitters. But saying that taking care of dopamine sensitivity cures social anxiety is a little naive.


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## Thechemicals

reef88 said:


> I could say the same about Xanax, I take it 30 minutes before going to class and I'm 10 times more confident, and this has nothing to do with Dopamine.
> 
> Not even scientists know the exact mechanism of which social anxiety works, it probably is the abnormality of the functions of several neurotransmitters. But saying that taking care of dopamine sensitivity cures social anxiety is a little naive.


Yes but Xanax is a drug and therefore shoudlnt be used as a longterm strategy.

It dosent matter if other things contribute to SA or if dopamine is only part of the bigger picture, what matters is that excess stimulation via the internet and TV and other things similar lowers dopamine receptors. And low dopamine receptors is a MAJOR role in social anxeity.

Yeh maybe your right their might be other underlying causes to social anxeity, but if by resentisizing your receptors you no longer feel the symptoms of SA. Then you no longer have social anxeity as a disease. There may be other neurons and processes that are still abnormal, but since you no longer experiance social anxeity then you no longer have the disease.

I managed to cure myself for two weeks by abstaining from all things electronic, but that is impractical for a long term strategy. Which is why i have come hear to see if anyone has any alterative to increase dopamine receptors.


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## Thechemicals

reef88 said:


> I could say the same about Xanax, I take it 30 minutes before going to class and I'm 10 times more confident, and this has nothing to do with Dopamine.
> 
> Not even scientists know the exact mechanism of which social anxiety works, it probably is the abnormality of the functions of several neurotransmitters. But saying that taking care of dopamine sensitivity cures social anxiety is a little naive.


Social anxeity isnt anything other than a symptom, the symptom is the disease.
And the disease maybe caused by many different processes, but if you manage to cure the symptom then you no longer have the disease of social anxeity.


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## misread

i believe that abstinence is the most profound way to sensitize the dopaminergic system. cant verify that scientifically, but it gives me a smiliar feeling to adderall without tolerance issue.
some people who have POIS (post orgasm illness syndrome) report that their social anxiety completely vanish after abstinence..and that is for sure not a psychological thing.


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## jonny neurotic

Thechemicals said:


> http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=174018
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203084254.htm
> 
> Seems like social anxeity is linked to abnormal dopamine receptors.
> Ive had first hand experiance with this aswell, my social anxeity gets worse when im on the computer all day long and surfing message boards. Then when i go outside interacting with people is less fun and im left not knowing what to say or do.
> 
> But i had a problem with my computer with prevented me for accessing it for about 2 weeks, i was left in complete boredom and suddenly found myself going outside more and when i did it was if i was high 24/7 simply being in the presence of other people. My confidence skyrocketed and i could literally yell across the street to strangers which i woudlnt dream of doing when i was spending most of my day online.
> Then i got my computer working again and ive lost that social energy and lack of inhibition i had during my computer abstinence.
> 
> I dont think its something as simple as porn, i think its overstimulation in general to a point where normal social situations dont give us that rush that where supposed to get, and therefore we never wire our brains to seek out these social experiances.


I don't recall attempting to refute that low dopamine binding is associated with SA. My point was that this abstinence nonsense is not empirically based.

I would also like to point out, as I have so many times to people who want to tell me what the "cure" is, that I have had SA my entire life. It is not something that has just happened. It has nothing to do with my current life style, I have always felt this way. I do not know what your experience is exactly but I think there is some ambiguity in the term social anxiety. I think some people here have psychotic disorders that cause social anxiety, some have self esteem issues and some have what I refer to as pure type Social Anxiety Disorder. That is that they have a genetic predisposition that is not so easily overcome by exposure and usual therapeutic approaches. I would regard myself as being in the third category...



Inshallah said:


> I agree with you, but rather than looking at it from a chemical point of view, I prefer to look at it as "living a normal life" and the chemicals will follow suit.


So that's all we need to do. Live a normal life. Well thanks. Now that I have that knowledge my life will be turned around.

Go have a word with yourself will you...


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## Inshallah

jonny neurotic said:


> Go have a word with yourself will you...


?

Aren't you the poster boy for what I'm saying? I seem to recall you have been on everything but the kitchen sink. If there was a chemical reason, you would have found the solution by now.


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## Thechemicals

jonny neurotic said:


> I don't recall attempting to refute that low dopamine binding is associated with SA. My point was that this abstinence nonsense is not empirically based.
> 
> I would also like to point out, as I have so many times to people who want to tell me what the "cure" is, that I have had SA my entire life. It is not something that has just happened. It has nothing to do with my current life style, I have always felt this way. I do not know what your experience is exactly but I think there is some ambiguity in the term social anxiety. I think some people here have psychotic disorders that cause social anxiety, some have self esteem issues and some have what I refer to as pure type Social Anxiety Disorder. That is that they have a genetic predisposition that is not so easily overcome by exposure and usual therapeutic approaches. I would regard myself as being in the third category...
> 
> So that's all we need to do. Live a normal life. Well thanks. Now that I have that knowledge my life will be turned around.
> 
> Go have a word with yourself will you...


I never said that abstinence was in any way a cure to Social anxeity.
I simply listed it as something that "possibly" increases dopamine receptors.
The way i cured it for two weeks was not through abstinence, it was through cutting out all electronics to the point where i was bored at home.
Im not saying that you should do this or that it will even work for anyone but myself,
all im saying is that ive had anxeity my WHOLE life ever since i was about 10, and this happened to completely rid me of any nervousness whatsoever. Ive allways been an introvert but during this week i was literally the loudest person i knew.

Obviously computer addiction may not be the cause of low dopamine receptors for you, there could be many factors involved. But all im saying is that you should look towards your actual dopamine receptors rather than simply taking a **** ton of meds that simply increase dopamine. As for that to be an effective cure you would have to take the meds 24/7 which is problematic.

Now answer this, did you have social anxeity as a very young child? im not talking about shyness either, but did were you awkward even back then?


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## mzmz

*wait what?*



Thechemicals said:


> All of you seem to think that increasing dopamine is the way to go
> 
> probably because youve read about dopamines effects on anxeity right?
> 
> so you thought okay, lets increase our dopamine then?
> 
> well its not as simple as that, people with social anxeity lack the dopamine receptors
> so rewarding things like socialising with people that should be natural and unhibited, become awkward and difficult because your dopamine receptors are desentized.
> 
> Simply increasing dopamine may even further decrease your receptors so that is not a long term strategy.
> 
> So far the only things that have been reported to increase dopamine receptors are exercise, abstinence from ejaculation, stopping addictions like pornography and fasting.
> 
> Is there any other more effective way to increase your dopamine receptors?


Fasting is supposed to help?

I sometimes do this lemon aid diet and i feel amazing. can you explain exactly whats going on chemically for me?


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## jonny neurotic

Thechemicals said:


> I never said that abstinence was in any way a cure to Social anxeity.
> I simply listed it as something that "possibly" increases dopamine receptors.
> The way i cured it for two weeks was not through abstinence, it was through cutting out all electronics to the point where i was bored at home.
> Im not saying that you should do this or that it will even work for anyone but myself,
> all im saying is that ive had anxeity my WHOLE life ever since i was about 10, and this happened to completely rid me of any nervousness whatsoever. Ive allways been an introvert but during this week i was literally the loudest person i knew.
> 
> Obviously computer addiction may not be the cause of low dopamine receptors for you, there could be many factors involved. But all im saying is that you should look towards your actual dopamine receptors rather than simply taking a **** ton of meds that simply increase dopamine. As for that to be an effective cure you would have to take the meds 24/7 which is problematic.
> 
> Now answer this, did you have social anxeity as a very young child? im not talking about shyness either, but did were you awkward even back then?


So long as I can remember I was always quiet around people I didn't know and when asked to speak I would barely be able to mumble. My mum tells me the same thing. From a very early age, before I had computer games, when I was outside setting fire to things and playing with my friends I always had social anxiety. It is not something that happened later in life.

I personally don't know WTF you are talking about but SA has always been an issue for me and I am not about to accept some half baked nonsense about turning off my computer and going outside. I do go outside. I do exercise regularly. I always have SA...


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## GotAnxiety

Sleep deprivation is the best natural way too upregulate receptors the state between dreaming and awake is the most creative state known too men "dreamwalking".

Right now im in a Scenario where i had too stay awake for over 24 and i feel pretty good actually not depressed no anxiety i actually feel like fighting someone lol this can help explain why the dawning effect of alcohol produces such euphoria state the rebound from the depressant + sleep deprivation also alot of antidepressant's cause sleep deprivation maybe this is the way they work by making you delusional you forget about your problem's but you don't need a antidepressant too cause sleep deprivation.

Sleep deprivation is a natural way too increase BDNF.

Sleep deprived fasted exercised lol there ya combo i dunno about the fasting maybe

Here's some studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19576267
http://jn.physiology.org/content/91/4/1586.full
http://www.journalsleep.org/ViewAbstract.aspx?pid=28443


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## Thechemicals

jonny neurotic said:


> So long as I can remember I was always quiet around people I didn't know and when asked to speak I would barely be able to mumble. My mum tells me the same thing. From a very early age, before I had computer games, when I was outside setting fire to things and playing with my friends I always had social anxiety. It is not something that happened later in life.
> 
> I personally don't know WTF you are talking about but SA has always been an issue for me and I am not about to accept some half baked nonsense about turning off my computer and going outside. I do go outside. I do exercise regularly. I always have SA...


I never said that you should go outside and turn your computer off, i clearly stated that in my post.
Im simply saying that since upregulating dopamine receptors has such a profound effect on SA with no comedown or need to constently take meds, we should look towards this rather than temporary dopamine fixes which is basically what Tyrosine and similiar things are.
Now i never said we should do this via abstinence or exercise or anything i listed, i was simply asking if there are any more effective ways of upregulating dopamine receptors since those are currently the only ones i know of and they all lack enough evidence or study.

Remember im talking about upregulating dopamine here, not exercise not abstinence.

Halfbaked? man i can see why people dont like you, theres scientific literature backing up my theory and i am posting it because my own experimentation has helped me cure my SA for extended periods. Im not claiming to know everything all im saying is that dopamine receptors definately play a major role, hardly "halfbaked".


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## mzmz

wow so it makes sense so many of us are night owls...we are self medicating unconsciously lol


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## Thechemicals

mzmz said:


> Fasting is supposed to help?
> 
> I sometimes do this lemon aid diet and i feel amazing. can you explain exactly whats going on chemically for me?


Well i woudlnt count on fasting as a long term strategy because of the potential negative effects on health.

But food restriction increases dopamine d2 receptors

lack of dopamine d2 receptors plays a major role in social anxeity.

but for obvious reasons we cant chronically starve ourselves which is why im currently searching for otherways to increase receptors


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## Hulgil

If you have a long-term supply of a medication (and it doesn't stop working), then that medication would be a long-term solution too. 

@GotAnxiety: No, that's not how antidepressants work... but interesting stuff about sleep deprivation; I have always noticed that I feel different after not sleeping for a while. Different in a good way: creative, energetic, happy. This only happens when I stay up a long time, though, not when I'm woken up after too little sleep.


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## tommybakes

Inshallah said:


> My social anxiety was best when I lived a normal life, did what everyone else does, and didn't think about this 'social anxiety' thing. I also didn't have the diagnosis yet at that time.
> 
> Then when I had the diagnosis, became familiar with it, started on meds and therapy etc. All went downhill fast.
> 
> I firmly believe there is nothing wrong with us AT ALL, it's all in our head. Our self chosen solitude is what created it. What we probably do all have is an abnormally high level of neuroticism, which combined with avoidance is what brought us here.


Best thing I've seen on here.


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## reef88

Thechemicals said:


> Yes but Xanax is a drug and therefore shoudlnt be used as a longterm strategy.
> 
> It dosent matter if other things contribute to SA or if dopamine is only part of the bigger picture, what matters is that excess stimulation via the internet and TV and other things similar lowers dopamine receptors. And low dopamine receptors is a MAJOR role in social anxeity.
> 
> Yeh maybe your right their might be other underlying causes to social anxeity, but if by resentisizing your receptors you no longer feel the symptoms of SA. Then you no longer have social anxeity as a disease. There may be other neurons and processes that are still abnormal, but since you no longer experiance social anxeity then you no longer have the disease.
> 
> I managed to cure myself for two weeks by abstaining from all things electronic, but that is impractical for a long term strategy. Which is why i have come hear to see if anyone has any alterative to increase dopamine receptors.


I'd like to see a study supporting your "excess stimulation via the internet and TV and other things similar lowers dopamine receptors" theory.

And I hardly believe, abstaining from electronics, suddenly cured you from Social Anxiety.


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## Raidiant

I like this discussion because is novel. I mean let's face it nobody has really tried to take a novel approach to fixing SA, and I really believe the novel approaches are what works, because none of the medication (which isn't advancing) really helps with SA properly.

I can vouch for sleep deprivation however it not reliable it has its own side effects.

I'm not sure about abstinence can somebody explain to my how dopamine receptors would increase from not dealing with electronics, seems pretty mythical at the moment.

As sad as it is, having a "normal" life is pretty much what cures SA the best but you have to obtain the "normal" life by not having SA in the first place.

I would say my SA started off(rating 1 to 10) as 7 from birth than gradually got worst to maybe even 9-10, the brain is much more organic than we like to believe and by identifying with social anxiety you actually make it worst because now you are paranoid + SA. 

By using certain novel strategies I am able to move my SA to maybe about 4 now , got a good job sort of have more life and friends now so my SA is much lower because my lifestyle supports it. I can't express how being alone itself generate more and more SA,'

I also think there is good reason to believe SA is not really a genetic diorder, but more like people with abnormal brains like autistic spectrum will more likely to develop a fear of people, because they can't communicate properly.

When the thread starter says to fix dopamine receptor. I would like to point out that we should be clear the fix is making our brains able to concentrate nd function normally, then the fear will slowly go away.

Xanax and amphetamines work not because they act as dopamine fixes. Amphetamine merely increases concentration to the point where you can basically "cut out the bull****", I believe from previous research certain brain abnormalities (or shall we say slight mutations) can cause abnormal dopamine receptors this could lead to stuff like weird memory, autism. 

Amphetamine works by raising dopamine levels, note this increase concentration and brain speed to the point where focus is better than normal people or equivalent giving the illusion of "feeling normal. Actually anyone can take amphetamines and get a concentration boost.

Not to mention amphetamines actually down regulate dopamine receptors, its very bad for somebody who already has abnormal or low level of dopamine receptors.

Xanax is freeze dried alchohol, it basically nullifies the brain. Which is why it works for SA, which is often a form of paralysis from over sensitivity to external stimuli, again it doesn't really fix SA. Its a patchy cure at best and I'm sure anyone who has SA knows getting drunk or taking load ox XAnax doesn't make them like a stud.

So where am I going with this: yes basically i've spent many years trying to cure myself, lots of experiences, but I choose to live with it. I can work something out. Its a myth that people need this amazing social confidence to be happy. Its really about being comfortable with who you are. As much as we don't like to hear our current medications are primitive technologies it's like pumping a computer with random charges and hoping it will fix itself.

Its not that simple, because our brain is the result of our genetics and decades of human experience. Probably the brain learning to accept its not really going to get a sudden growth of dopamine receptors from something easy is the best way forward.

Also wasn't there research that shows ADHD (which i directly related to SAD) also comes from the lack of dopamine production during sleep?

oh and abstinence from porn never worked for me. I just got so horny my anxiety increased tenfold even though I didn't want to go home, I just become angry and depressed.


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## sas111

more, it tricks the brain. Even when you're feeling super low.


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## Thechemicals

reef88 said:


> I'd like to see a study supporting your "excess stimulation via the internet and TV and other things similar lowers dopamine receptors" theory.
> 
> And I hardly believe, abstaining from electronics, suddenly cured you from Social Anxiety.


http://journals.lww.com/neuroreport...riatal_dopamine_D2_receptors_in_people.9.aspx

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00952990.2010.491879

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...orn-users-internet-addiction-atrophies-brains

Now it is no longer a theory.


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## mzmz

Holy crap were all screwed


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## Thechemicals

mzmz said:


> Holy crap were all screwed


Youre not screwed

the changes are very easily reversible.


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## Hulgil

Inshallah said:


> Aren't you the poster boy for what I'm saying? I seem to recall you have been on everything but the kitchen sink. If there was a chemical reason, you would have found the solution by now.


That would only be true if we had drugs that worked on every possible chemical cause of social anxiety. If the classes of drugs available are limited, it doesn't follow that none of them working means the problem is not chemical.

I'm glad you found something that works for you, but it's not reasonable to assume that because you found that living "a normal life" (whatever that is) cured your anxiety, it will do so for everyone. That's generalizing from one example... like if I took my own experience to mean that only opioids can cure social anxiety and everyone else is just fooling themselves.



Thechemicals said:


> http://journals.lww.com/neuroreport...riatal_dopamine_D2_receptors_in_people.9.aspx
> 
> http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00952990.2010.491879
> 
> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...orn-users-internet-addiction-atrophies-brains
> 
> Now it is no longer a theory.


Can you be more specific? That is - stated concisely, what _is_ your theory? Is it that D2 receptor sensitivity is related to social anxiety, or that abstinence from sex, porn, and gaming will sensitize said receptors, or both, or more?

These studies show that intense dopaminergic activity results in excitotoxicity and desensitization, which may mean that refraining from anything that activates the dopaminergic reward system will result in increased receptor sensitivity. (Note that the Internet in general isn't the culprit in these articles - it's gaming, and gambling, and eating, and porn... specific activities.) Whether this is significant enough to be effective, and whether it's sustainable, is still an open question, I think; and I think it is also probable that some social anxiety stems from problems in other systems, so dopamine receptor sensitization won't be a magic bullet for everyone.


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## reef88

Hulgil said:


> That would only be true if we had drugs that worked on every possible chemical cause of social anxiety. If the classes of drugs available are limited, it doesn't follow that none of them working means the problem is not chemical.
> 
> I'm glad you found something that works for you, but it's not reasonable to assume that because you found that living "a normal life" (whatever that is) cured your anxiety, it will do so for everyone. That's generalizing from one example... like if I took my own experience to mean that only opioids can cure social anxiety and everyone else is just fooling themselves.
> 
> Can you be more specific? That is - stated concisely, what _is_ your theory? Is it that D2 receptor sensitivity is related to social anxiety, or that abstinence from sex, porn, and gaming will sensitize said receptors, or both, or more?
> 
> These studies show that intense dopaminergic activity results in excitotoxicity and desensitization, which may mean that refraining from anything that activates the dopaminergic reward system will result in increased receptor sensitivity. (Note that the Internet in general isn't the culprit in these articles - it's gaming, and gambling, and eating, and porn... specific activities.) Whether this is significant enough to be effective, and whether it's sustainable, is still an open question, I think; and I think it is also probable that some social anxiety stems from problems in other systems, so dopamine receptor sensitization won't be a magic bullet for everyone.


I don't know about you, but I'm not convinced by these studies.


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## AmericanZero

I think the real problem with people with SA is that we think too much. We're always looking for answers and cures and things to blame our problems on.

I do belive a policy along the lines of "think it, say it" would prove beneficial. See someone you think is attractive? Just tell them. Feel like you said something stupid? Let the world know. Easier said than done, but doable.

We hold things in too long then we second guess ourselves to death. Analyzing the world can be a good thing but it can also destroy you. Acting on impulse every once in a while could help.


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## reef88

AmericanZero said:


> I think the real problem with people with SA is that we think too much. We're always looking for answers and cures and things to blame our problems on.
> 
> I do belive a policy along the lines of "think it, say it" would prove beneficial. See someone you think is attractive? Just tell them. Feel like you said something stupid? Let the world know. Easier said than done, but doable.
> 
> We hold things in too long then we second guess ourselves to death. Analyzing the world can be a good thing but it can also destroy you. Acting on impulse every once in a while could help.


Yes. Even if you said something stupid, or you ****ed up, it doesn't matter, screw everyone else. This kinda thinking helped me before.


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## GotAnxiety

Ultimately i think it was the drug's that messed me up the most too much ecstasy and SSRI withdraw's not knowing what it was at the time, but before that i did have a computer game addiction for a very long time i guess we all suffered in are own little screwed up way.

But any way's who's up for the challenge? 3 day's of sleep deprived fasted exercised! will allow juice fasting i guess make it easier on ya the exercise can be your work or just being active or whatever but too make it even more interesting make your self homeless and live on the street's for 3 day's too give your self a break from your everyday routine so you can do some deep mediation or something coffee allowed of course.

This may be a bit extreme but it sound like fun lol 3 day's may be a tad 2 much altho practice at your own discretion .


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## Noca

Thechemicals said:


> Everyone has dopamine receptors, but people suffering from social anxeity have desensitized ones. So it takes more stimulation to acheive the same high than would a regular person. So things like being in a group socializing dont give you the same rush and your left not knowing what to say or do right?
> So yeh amphetamines would temporarily cure your social anxeity as they boost your dopamine, but only for the time that you take them. So after they wear of your left with even further desentized receptors.
> Now when your in a social situation you will feel even more awkward and even more nervous because you have even less receptors.
> The key is making your receptors sensitive enough so that you get rewarded with dopamine simply by interacting with people, and arent forced to take stimulants or alcohol.


And according to most polls on this site done in the past, almost everyone with SA is an introvert, therefore not getting anywhere near as much exposure to social situations as extroverts, thus causing anxiety by your theory.


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## Duke of Prunes

Dopamine is the key, yes, but this approach doesn't sound right to me.

I don't buy that porn/sex, gaming, internet, etc are powerful enough to cause any desensitisation, but even if they did to a limited extent, so would most other pleasurable distractions, and what point would there be to life without distractions?

Perhaps porn and sex are have a bit more profound of an effect than other distractions, but I still don't believe that it's enough to have any negative effects, but again, if we assume that they can cause noticeable desensitisation, unless you're completely asexual, I'd say that the stress of suppressing the urges would probably be harmful enough to outweigh any dopaminergic benefits.

A life without fun? I'll stick to boosting my dopamine levels with pharmacology and continue to do battle with homoeostasis, thanks.


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## The Sleeping Dragon

Inshallah said:


> "living a normal life"


no such thing


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## misread

Duke of Prunes said:


> Dopamine is the key, yes, but this approach doesn't sound right to me.
> 
> I don't buy that porn/sex, gaming, internet, etc are powerful enough to cause any desensitisation, but even if they did to a limited extent, so would most other pleasurable distractions, and what point would there be to life without distractions?


It is all about excess. furthermore porn, gaming and internet are all not natural activities, but porn is imho very powerful. i really think that sensitizing dopamine receptors (or increasing dopamine receptros) could be a great help in becoming more confident. i think it is all about the good old middle way..not too much, not to less of pleasure. not easy in a hedonistic society. besides fun and happiness are two different things.

4 years ago i had an incredible sex affair with a girl..after that hyperstimulating experience i fell into deep depression for 4 weeks..it felt like my dopamine receptors compeletely shut down. same thing after a relationship with a borderline girl..it was so thrilling with her that afterwards it was impossible for me to get pleasure from any other girl. too much pleasure at once could be dangerous.

food restriction increases dopamine receptors in rats..
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025091036.htm

i always felt that fasting destroy a lot of my anxiety/depression symptoms..


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## Inshallah

Good to see at least some people get it and aren't completely stuck in the victim role of being born with chemical abnormalities. There will never be a drug "cure" because the only thing that's worng is our constant over-thinking of trivial things other people don't even think about. All the drugs do is mask symptoms.

What I meant with living a normal life and the chemicals will follow is the same as with falling in love etc. Once you fall in love, the feel good chemicals follow. Once you start doing what you want to do, in this case socializing with people, the chemicals will follow as soon as you actually start doing it.


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## Inshallah

The Sleeping Dragon said:


> no such thing


I put it between brackets for a reason, you know what I mean


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## Inshallah

Hulgil said:


> I'm glad you found something that works for you, but it's not reasonable to assume that because you found that living "a normal life" (whatever that is) cured your anxiety, it will do so for everyone. That's generalizing from one example... like if I took my own experience to mean that only opioids can cure social anxiety and everyone else is just fooling themselves.


Don't you think that actually doing what you are currently probably (like most here I assume) only fantasizing about, would help you heaps more than popping pills to get the same vibes? Every specific phobia has to be overcome through willpower eventually.

Not to mention that being on pills, at least for me, only adds to me feeling more weird in contrast to other people and probably rightly so.

This of course assuming you actually 100% want it. I came to the conclusion that I really don't need to be around other people a lot. I like being alone. I think more people here are like this and wrongly think that means there is something wrong with them yet again.


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## jonny neurotic

> Ex-chronic "ecstasy" users showed no change in levels of dopamine D2 receptor occupancy after playing this game.


From paper you linked to. http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00952990.2010.491879

Perhaps chronic use of psychostimulants balances out the dopamine system. I would need to see much more data before I could draw any conclusions. This is a complex matter and I appreciate your input into the matter. I would like to know how these healthy volunteers were selected. I would like to see the results of more studies like this.



> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...rophies-brains


This is inconclusive. It only suggests that there is a link between dopamine deficiency and "porn addiction". It doesn't show that porn causes dopamine dysfunction. Also what about people who watch porn but don't have social anxiety. Or people who have social anxiety but don't watch porn. I imagine that females are less likely to watch porn than males so what accounts for all the females on here?

We are really getting nowhere with this idea and it bores me that it keeps coming up. Next...


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## The Sleeping Dragon

I was kinda in a bad mood when I posted that.  Sorry.


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## Thechemicals

jonny neurotic said:


> From paper you linked to. http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00952990.2010.491879
> 
> Perhaps chronic use of psychostimulants balances out the dopamine system. I would need to see much more data before I could draw any conclusions. This is a complex matter and I appreciate your input into the matter. I would like to know how these healthy volunteers were selected. I would like to see the results of more studies like this.
> 
> This is inconclusive. It only suggests that there is a link between dopamine deficiency and "porn addiction". It doesn't show that porn causes dopamine dysfunction. Also what about people who watch porn but don't have social anxiety. Or people who have social anxiety but don't watch porn. I imagine that females are less likely to watch porn than males so what accounts for all the females on here?
> 
> We are really getting nowhere with this idea and it bores me that it keeps coming up. Next...


No when it says "Ex-chronic "ecstasy" users showed no change in levels of dopamine D2 receptor occupancy after playing this game." It means that they have been desentized so much that the game isnt as rewarding as a non-drug user and therefore hardly any dopamine response, this is very bad, as the low dopamine response to normal stimuli such as this is a cause of social anxeity.
This is why phsycostimulants are not the answer as they only serve short term releif whilst creating an even bigger chemical imbalance.

And this debate is not about porn or any of the other things i listed, in my original post i didnt even say porn causes social anxeity. I just listed it as something that "possibly" reduces dopamine receptors, those things that i listed were not meant to be cures. 
My original point was to highlight that the problem is a lack od dopamine d2 receptors, and i simply listed a few things that "supposedly" increase receptors.
I then went on to ask if anyone knew any other more practical solution to increasing dopamine receptors.

See my point is we should be trying to increase dopamine receptors, my point was never about porns effects on SA or anything else.

And alot more women watch porn than you think.


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## reef88

"No when it says "Ex-chronic “ecstasy” users showed no change in levels of dopamine D2 receptor occupancy after playing this game." It means that they have been desentized so much that the game isnt as rewarding as a non-drug user and therefore hardly any dopamine response, this is very bad"

chronic ecstasy users wouldn't have shown any dopamine activity no matter what they were doing, not just playing a video game.


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## Thechemicals

reef88 said:


> "No when it says "Ex-chronic "ecstasy" users showed no change in levels of dopamine D2 receptor occupancy after playing this game." It means that they have been desentized so much that the game isnt as rewarding as a non-drug user and therefore hardly any dopamine response, this is very bad"
> 
> chronic ecstasy users wouldn't have shown any dopamine activity no matter what they were doing, not just playing a video game.


Yeh i know, but jonny neurotic seemed to think that chronic exstacy use "balanced the brains neurons" lol.


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## istayhome

Like I said in a previous post I have spent years doing all of the activities that you mentioned and more. You're basically talking about employing some form of asceticism temporarily in order to increase dopamine receptors, the thesis being that this will have a lasting effect on dopamine receptors once an individual returns to their regular lifestyle the end result being reduced social anxiety due to naturally increased dopamine levels.

I have never found this to be the case for me. When I fasted or restricted caloric intake I did at times have rushes of euphoria (which were much greater than I would normally experience when doing the same activity) and spontaneously breakout into laughter. That was pretty nice but...

A) that increased dopaminergic experience did absolutely nothing for the social anxiety I experienced. It did not make me more socially confident in any way nor did it change any of the thought patterns I have surrounding the anxiety I experienced.

B) I do not believe that it is really possible to re-sensitize dopamine receptors permanently in any of the suggestions have been mentioned in this thread. After fasting for days then adjusting back to your regular diet, your dopamine receptors just as quickly return to their original state.

It is obviously possible to permanently fry your dopamine receptors by smoking crack. But I do not think it is possible to make them more receptive by any simple actions.

I do believe that the best route is one of moderation and consistency in life in order to retain the best possible mind-set. In other words living in manner that excludes overstimulation and excess but is sustainable for the individual in the long run. i.e. a "healthy lifestyle."

But temporary asceticism (of any form) will not have permanent effects on neurotransmitter functioning. The only benefit I can see is using fasting, etc. as tools to gain a greater self awareness which will hopefully help one cope with SA.


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## Thechemicals

istayhome said:


> Like I said in a previous post I have spent years doing all of the activities that you mentioned and more. You're basically talking about employing some form of asceticism temporarily in order to increase dopamine receptors, the thesis being that this will have a lasting effect on dopamine receptors once an individual returns to their regular lifestyle the end result being reduced social anxiety due to naturally increased dopamine levels.
> 
> I have never found this to be the case for me. When I fasted or restricted caloric intake I did at times have rushes of euphoria (which were much greater than I would normally experience when doing the same activity) and spontaneously breakout into laughter. That was pretty nice but...
> 
> A) that increased dopaminergic experience did absolutely nothing for the social anxiety I experienced. It did not make me more socially confident in any way nor did it change any of the thought patterns I have surrounding the anxiety I experienced.
> 
> B) I do not believe that it is really possible to re-sensitize dopamine receptors permanently in any of the suggestions have been mentioned in this thread. After fasting for days then adjusting back to your regular diet, your dopamine receptors just as quickly return to their original state.
> 
> It is obviously possible to permanently fry your dopamine receptors by smoking crack. But I do not think it is possible to make them more receptive by any simple actions.
> 
> I do believe that the best route is one of moderation and consistency in life in order to retain the best possible mind-set. In other words living in manner that excludes overstimulation and excess but is sustainable for the individual in the long run. i.e. a "healthy lifestyle."
> 
> But temporary asceticism (of any form) will not have permanent effects on neurotransmitter functioning. The only benefit I can see is using fasting, etc. as tools to gain a greater self awareness which will hopefully help one cope with SA.


People seem to be mistaking the intentions of my original thread, i never in any way recomended these lifestyle changes as a means of resesitizing dopamine receptors.
I simply listed them as things commonly thought to increase dopamine receptors, and then posed the question is there any other efficeint way?
My whole thread was to suggest that we should work with dopamine receptors rather than simply increase dopamine itself like the majority of users here seem to be so keen on.
I coudlnt comment on your fasting and exercise as that is not a route i have taken or a route that i in any way suggested as a cure for social anxeity. I simply listed it as something that supposedly increases dopamine d2.
I am arguing that we should look towards dopamine receptors, that is all.

The only thing i had results with personally was abstaining from television and the computer as i had a severe addiction.

But i am in no way suggesting others do the same, i am only suggeting that we look further into dopamine receptors and there role in SA.


----------



## istayhome

Before I made that post, I made sure to re-read your original post and all of your clarifying posts. What I am trying to say is that the conclusions I have drawn from my experience is that no, their are no "efficient ways" of increasing dopamine receptors. Though there are many ways to increase dopamine and ways to increase dopamine receptors simply that increased dopamine uptake has never been a cure for my social anxiety in any way. At one time I spent a year without tv, internet, etc. and didn't notice any difference in my psychological state.

Dopamine no doubt plays a role in social anxiety, but beyond that I don't think there is much more to say. Many other factors play a role in social anxiety. So I don't think it is safe to say what you said in the title of this thread that "the cure is sensitizing dopamine receptors." Especially considering that the general consensus seems to be it is not actually possible to re-sensitive dopamine receptors for the long-term in a responsible manner in the first place. It's a route I spent years going down and I am further away from any understanding than when I started.


----------



## Hulgil

Inshallah said:


> Don't you think that actually doing what you are currently probably (like most here I assume) only fantasizing about, would help you heaps more than popping pills to get the same vibes? Every specific phobia has to be overcome through willpower eventually.


Sort of. Forcing myself to get exposure to social situations did more to make me functional than anything else has; I am now able to live a normal life, in that I can shop at the grocery store, act appropriate in a job interview, etc. I credit this almost entirely to exposure, not to therapy or even the pills.

However, even after years of this, my basic feeling of discomfort in these situations remains, and I still occasionally feel like I simply can't do it. That's what the pills are for - to make something like a job interview less uncomfortable, or the anticipation of having one coming up tomorrow less unbearable. The pills also helped in the first place by enabling me to go out and get the exposure (at first; you eventually have to go out there without them, though).



Inshallah said:


> This of course assuming you actually 100% want it. I came to the conclusion that I really don't need to be around other people a lot. I like being alone. I think more people here are like this and wrongly think that means there is something wrong with them yet again.


I came to the same conclusion. I've always known I preferred to be alone, but throughout my school years I felt that this was abnormal; especially in high school, because there, _everything_ is about socializing. (It's less an institution for learning, and more for socializing - and keeping teens occupied. There are actually a good few interesting studies that show the parallels between the school system, in the U.S., and prison.)

I still remember when, in about 9th grade, I realized that it was _totally okay_ to like science and literature and being by yourself. I didn't _have_ to try to buy fashionable clothes and cheer the basketball team and make conversation at the lunch table. I still feel like my "current self" was birthed from that revelation.



Thechemicals said:


> People seem to be mistaking the intentions of my original thread, i never in any way recomended these lifestyle changes as a means of resesitizing dopamine receptors.
> I simply listed them as things commonly thought to increase dopamine receptors, and then posed the question is there any other efficeint way? [...] But i am in no way suggesting others do the same, i am only suggeting that we look further into dopamine receptors and there role in SA.


That seems reasonable to me. I must have misunderstood your original intention.

Dopamine antagonists - like many antipsychotics - can cause upregulation of dopamine receptors. They can have some nasty side effects, though; apparently, upregulation of dopamine receptors can cause dyskinesia, for one. Perhaps there are safer drugs.

From Wikipedia:


> Haloperidol induced [dopaminergic] activity up to 98% higher than baseline in as many [sic?] as two weeks, but yielded significant dyskinesia side effects.


The other problem is that while you're on the drug - or any dopamine antagonist - even if you don't develop dyskinesia, you will likely be much more anxious than usual, for obvious reasons (...dopamine antagonism).


----------



## barry1685

Ahem, let me put some words in here for all.

SA is from a combination of things, depending on the person entirely.

For me it was bad learning from my parents as far as socializing and also a lack of dopamine and a little serotonin. I am doing way way better than I was 6 months ago before all of the therapy and meds. You would be surprised how much we negatively think to ourselves. 

I think the person needs to get stabilized as far as depression goes and reward center. Then therapy can be used to control and lessen the social anxiety. 

SA has two major triggers, lack of reward in conversation and bad experiences in the past with socializing thus causing anxiety. This varies depending on the person. We can always blame the reward system for our social anxiety but that is not true, not everyone experiences euphoria while chatting to some one. We essential need to become more comfortable around people and build social skills and the conversations will easily flow.

Now to finish my story, when I say reward system, I do think there are other reward chemicals in our brain besides dopamine. I think we are barely understanding our brains now adays. If you look at opiates and the effects they have as an antidepressant then you can realize there are more chemicals than serotonin and dopamine that effect our brains.

I forgot to mention the post some one made about benzos curing SA. I agree with them to some extent. There are some people like me, that take benzos and it cures the nervousness but does not initiate pro sociableness. Some this once more proves there is a reward system involved with SA.


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## reef88

Ok I hate to break it to everyone, but the whole idea OP is trying to make is a joke. Otherwise we'd have studies about making our dopamine receptors more active or dopamine neurotransmitters more effective. There is no cure, stop being so naive.

If there was a known fact about raising dopamine activity, everyone would be doing it.


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## riptide991

tornadobill said:


> Avioid dopamine agonist. They play a role in drug addiction(cocaine,meth,alcohol and others).They are impicated in schizophrenia and other mental ills.


It's not that clear cut. Dopamine has an impact on many different brain regions and agonists aren't designed to hone in on a particular region so it's sort of a trial and error game.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/news/20...ation-dopamine-brain-pet-neurotransmitter.htm

While, dopamine has generally been linked to motivation, researchers said that they were surprised to find that participants increased dopamine activity in the insula were the least likely to put in effort.

Here dopamine has no effect on motivation when increased in a specific region. Your brain has dopamine receptors in many regions and to make such a clear cut statement about dopamine is just incorrect.


----------



## Thechemicals

reef88 said:


> Ok I hate to break it to everyone, but the whole idea OP is trying to make is a joke. Otherwise we'd have studies about making our dopamine receptors more active or dopamine neurotransmitters more effective. There is no cure, stop being so naive.
> 
> If there was a known fact about raising dopamine activity, everyone would be doing it.


I can back up everything ive said with scientific studies

Tell me which parts you are skeptical about so i can back up my theory.


----------



## reef88

Thechemicals said:


> I can back up everything ive said with scientific studies
> 
> Tell me which parts you are skeptical about so i can back up my theory.


Dopamine isn't the cure. Show me a study claiming otherwise.


----------



## Thechemicals

reef88 said:


> Dopamine isn't the cure. Show me a study claiming otherwise.


Everything ive said in this thread can be backed up with science.

Name one thing i said in this thread that you think is fictitious, and ill show you the scientific evidence.


----------



## istayhome

I would like to see studies that show that increased levels of dopamine alone do in fact "cure" social anxiety in a statistically significant portion of social anxiety sufferers.

In addition I would like to see a study that shows it is possible to "re-sensitize" dopamine receptors using any of the methods discussed here. Not only that the dopamine receptors are increased in number/become more sensitive but most importantly that the effect is long-lasting and sustainable. 

As to my first query, it is still unknown what exactly causes social anxiety the most common idea is that there are many factors involved. If it were simply a matter of not enough dopamine causing social anxiety then we would all be prescribed dopaminergics and we'd all be better.

As to my second query I have stated in previous posts that I personally have tried all of the ideas suggested here that are supposed to "sensitize dopamine receptors." None have had lasting results or been sustainable for very long. Calorie restriction was probably when I felt the best, until I began to starve. I've bicycled 60+ mile days for months straight including rides of 250 miles in 24 hours, to the point of passing out. In both cases I had absolutely no reduction in social anxiety during or after. The same goes for abstaining for sex, tv, the computer, etc.

The idea that sensitizing dopamine receptors is "the cure" is inherently flawed for two reasons.
Lack of dopamine is not the sole cause of social anxiety.
None of your evidence has shown that there is anything we can do which will have a long term effect in increasing the sensitivity or number of dopamine receptors. 

I would love it if this idea were true. Such a simple answer to a very complex problem. But just engaging in or abstaining from an activity for a given amount of time will not completely change our brain chemistry for life. Changing our lifestyle can definitely change our mood, but one cannot do an activity for a few months and expect the adaptations of their neurons/synapses to last once they discontinue that activity. Furthermore there is no evidence that lack of dopamine alone is the cause of social anxiety for everyone anyways.


----------



## Inshallah

Dopamine is going to make the already paranoid/delusional thinking social anxiety-sufferer even more paranoid as well.


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## Noca

istayhome said:


> I don't know about how well this will work for everyone. I used to bicycle to deal with SA. I spent months bicycling 60 miles a day. Then I bicycled across the country. It got to the point where I bicycled 250 miles straight, I could pass out but I couldn't out-ride the anxiety, it only got worse. Keep in mind I wasn't using any drugs and was at a caloric deficit from burning so many calories. In the past I've used daily running and weight training along with meditation, I've fasted for days, been abstinent, been on diets stretching all the way to lowfat raw vegan and calorie restriction with optimal nutrition diets. There were definitely times I felt very euphoric but I can honestly say that nothing has had a significant effect on general anxiety, social anxiety or panic attacks.
> 
> Of course finding the most conducive lifestyle to easing one's particular stressors is important. As is a healthy diet and exercise along with a life of moderation. But I've never been able to increase the sensitivity of my dopamine receptors by doing any of that.
> 
> I even spent years forcing myself to just go into the city daily and talk to people, making and keeping recreational arrangements with friends and acquaintances, etc. But the social anxiety only got worse and I never really got any joy out of these experiences nor any type of healing. Damn, looking back on all of this really makes me feel hopeless. I'd say I tried just about everything for 7 years before I ever started taking medication.
> 
> You have some good points and non-medication options help a lot of people. But from my own experience I am forced to admit that there is a degree of this that is simply mental illness and it cannot be corrected physically, if at all.
> 
> Maybe some neurologists can look into implanting synthetic neurons and receptor sites into the patients brains. They also have to make those neurons and others fire the right amount of the right neurotransmitters so that we all feel and behave "normal." Of course that sounds like science fiction to me. I would much prefer it if I had been able to correct the anxiety I experience on my own, medication has definitely been a last resort.


Wow man... You really did go the extra mile to try and beat SA. That's f**ked!


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## minddrips

the cure is to stop feeding the negative emotional loops that come into your awareness. Once you stop pitying and start loving yourself you will realize it is all on perspective, not chemicals or disorders.


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## istayhome

minddrips said:


> the cure is to stop feeding the negative emotional loops that come into your awareness. Once you stop pitying and start loving yourself you will realize it is all on perspective, not chemicals or disorders.


Yeah, I aggressively pursued this "cure" as well for many years. I had my positive mantras and multiple daily meditations. Kept in mind all of the things I liked about myself. I remember once writing a continuous list of all the things I liked about myself for days. Always focused on the positive, changed my perspective to no avoid all negative thought loops, etc. I was able to function but nothing improved the social phobia or anxiety.

I think things like genetics, life experiences, traumas, etc. need to be taken into account. Especially genetics. Both my parents are severely mentally ill, as are my aunts, uncles, some grandparents; My brother committed suicide once he became a paranoid schizophrenic, my other brothers have experienced severe episodes of mental illness as well.

As I've said before I spent years doing everything to not have a mood disorder. Over time though my condition just got worse and worse to the point where I could not function and became agoraphobic.

Severe mental illness does exist and it can not be cured via the power of positive thinking. I really wish that the previous statement were not true, but it is. I have absolutely nothing to gain by remaining in my current condition and everything to lose. I am highly motivated to improve my condition and my life. Every day I wake up and try harder than the day before.

If you can cure me then please help. Come stay with me I'll give you room and board and fair monthly allowance. Come and whip me into shape, show me this thinking cure that has alluded me my whole life.


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## minddrips

istayhome said:


> Yeah, I aggressively pursued this "cure" as well for many years. I had my positive mantras and multiple daily meditations. Kept in mind all of the things I liked about myself. I remember once writing a continuous list of all the things I liked about myself for days. Always focused on the positive, changed my perspective to no avoid all negative thought loops, etc. I was able to function but nothing improved the social phobia or anxiety.
> 
> I think things like genetics, life experiences, traumas, etc. need to be taken into account. Especially genetics. Both my parents are severely mentally ill, as are my aunts, uncles, some grandparents; My brother committed suicide once he became a paranoid schizophrenic, my other brothers have experienced severe episodes of mental illness as well.
> 
> As I've said before I spent years doing everything to not have a mood disorder. Over time though my condition just got worse and worse to the point where I could not function and became agoraphobic.
> 
> Severe mental illness does exist and it can not be cured via the power of positive thinking. I really wish that the previous statement were not true, but it is. I have absolutely nothing to gain by remaining in my current condition and everything to lose. I am highly motivated to improve my condition and my life. Every day I wake up and try harder than the day before.
> 
> If you can cure me then please help. Come stay with me I'll give you room and board and fair monthly allowance. Come and whip me into shape, show me this thinking cure that has alluded me my whole life.


I am not joking, obviously there is still some of attachment to such way of thinking. You can try and do all these positive affirmations and such things like that but if you do not truly believe what you are saying, you are just bullsh*tting yourself. Instead of focusing on what is good and what is bad, realize that those are just your judgments that you project onto any given experience that comes into your awareness. There is no good or bad. There is just being.


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## FabledHero

The biggest reason for social anxiety is either from our negative thoughts, or negative past experiences. It's fears of possible future outcomes. So trying to improve your thoughts along with exposure is the key. So if you get your thought process right clearly you'll have less anxiety, which will help you (if you've had negative past experiences) add in positive experiences to your unconscious mind.

All of this talk about drugs or reward systems in the brain is trying to fix the symptoms not the cause of social anxiety, it's looking in the wrong place. Yeah drugs can definitely help short-term, but your brain will adjust to them and they'll work less effectively. They're best to be used in moderation to help you with exposure. Granted anyone can do whatever they want, I'm just talking about the healthiest way to fix the problem.


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## istayhome

minddrips said:


> I am not joking, obviously there is still some of attachment to such way of thinking. You can try and do all these positive affirmations and such things like that but if you do not truly believe what you are saying, you are just bullsh*tting yourself. Instead of focusing on what is good and what is bad, realize that those are just your judgments that you project onto any given experience that comes into your awareness. There is no good or bad. There is just being.


I am not joking either. I get what you're saying I truly followed everything you are saying for years. I acknowledge that for many people without severe mental illness what you are suggesting is a viable solution. I really wish it worked for me. Even still as strongly as I can I do believe I am well. I accept what is without passing judgement onto my experiences.

Do you deny that true mental illness exists? Do you think that those who suffer from schizophrenia can cure themselves by not feeding the negative emotional loops that come into their awareness and by not pitying and loving themselves that they will realize it is all in perspective? as you say.

Also please do not judge me and my way of thinking. In your post you just said that "there is obviously still some attachment in my way of thinking." You have no idea what my thoughts are. You clearly did not read my post. You failed to even acknowledge the ideas I brought up about mental illness being something that is caused by a number of factors including genetics. Again, I pose the question do you think that the suggestions you made with poor and generic rhetoric can cure all or most mental illness?


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## minddrips

istayhome said:


> I am not joking either. I get what you're saying I truly followed everything you are saying for years. I acknowledge that for many people without severe mental illness what you are suggesting is a viable solution. I really wish it worked for me. Even still as strongly as I can I do believe I am well. I accept what is without passing judgement onto my experiences.
> 
> Do you deny that true mental illness exists? Do you think that those who suffer from schizophrenia can cure themselves by not feeding the negative emotional loops that come into their awareness and by not pitying and loving themselves that they will realize it is all in perspective? as you say.
> 
> Also please do not judge me and my way of thinking. In your post you just said that "there is obviously still some attachment in my way of thinking." You have no idea what my thoughts are. You clearly did not read my post. You failed to even acknowledge the ideas I brought up about mental illness being something that is caused by a number of factors including genetics. Again, I pose the question do you think that the suggestions you made with poor and generic rhetoric can cure all or most mental illness?


I am not talking about mental illnesses; never once touched on that matterAs for the accusation of me judging you, I have not. I can see how you perceive it that way, but that is how I worded it. Words are so linear:roll

As for mental illnesses...my perspective could ( meaning perhaps)still apply, "modified" if you will, to their state of being. I for one do not have schizo, but am fascinated by it.


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## istayhome

So do you believe that all cases of severe social phobia, anxiety and agoraphobia can be cured by the ideas that you laid out? Because as I have said, I was of the same mindset as you and pursued your logic for years. I mean really did what you're saying. So for the third time, do you acknowledge or deny that genetics and other factors can cause severe mental illness? 

After a decade of my own experiences and trials, I am forced to admit that your "cure" has not worked for me and cannot be touted as a cure for all the mentally ill.


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## istayhome

Apparently you're talking about negative thought patterns that make people unhappy. In your original post you seemed to suggest that the same positive thinking patterns that help people overcome problems in their lives could also cure severe Social Anxiety (mental illness). I see that this is not the exact point you are trying to make. What I've been saying is that due to my experiences I am forced to believe that mental illness does exist for which there may be no cure. Certainly not a cure such as what you are proposing. Have you ever spent time with a paranoid schizophrenic? A catatonic schizophrenic? There is no way that your suggestions would do them a bit of good. Problems exist in the minds of some for which they have no power to overcome. If you cannot acknowledge this, then I don't know what to say.


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## minddrips

istayhome said:


> So do you believe that all cases of severe social phobia, anxiety and agoraphobia can be cured by the ideas that you laid out? Because as I have said, I was of the same mindset as you and pursued your logic for years. I mean really did what you're saying. So for the third time, do you acknowledge or deny that genetics and other factors can cause severe mental illness?
> 
> After a decade of my own experiences and trials, I am forced to admit that your "cure" has not worked for me and cannot be touted as a cure for all the mentally ill.


You believe what you choose to believe. If you say that such and such is not going to work for you then it shall be true. I am not force feeding you my perspectives. I can not make you understand what I have learned that has helped me and many others. I do not acknowledge social phobia, anxiety, and agoraphobia as mental illnesses, just perspectives. Yes, I have spent time with a paranoid schizophrenic for 5 years and he is only getting better, no thanks to any meds pharma provides, but through his experiences with ayahuasca, which allowed him to realize what is truly and has always been there.


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## istayhome

I take offense to the suggestion that my condition has gotten worse due to a lack of proper thought, belief, determination, perseverance, etc. I think it is a gross error to suggest that your ideas will work as a cure for everyone. I have earnestly and honestly tried your suggestions and have only gotten worse. This is not because I believed it wouldn't work, on the contrary I spent seven years with only the belief that I was fine and that I enjoyed life. In the end reality caught up to me and I had to admit that I could not believe myself better. I have tried guided hallucinogenic therapy as well.

To deny the existence of mental illness seems delusional to me. I honestly cannot understand why some people insist that mental does not exist and that the severe problems some people experience can be cured through belief alone. I cannot help but picture a Scientologist Tom Cruise jumping around on a couch.

Your idea that my problems exist simply because I believe they do is not true. What you're suggesting is not cure-all it is a new-age belief popularized by Rhonda Byrne in _The Secret_ You do not know my experiences or the experiences of the many people on this forum, to suggest that we are all just perpetuating our own states because we are feeding negative emotional loops and can simply believe ourselves better is wildly false. It's not wildly false because I believe it is wildly false, it's wildly false because of the reality and nature of mental illness.

Most people who commit suicide due to mental illness do so as a last resort. After much anguish because they cannot believe themselves better. Thoughts and beliefs do help some people but there is no way it can cure everyone of whatever ails them.


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## FabledHero

istayhome said:


> Yeah, I aggressively pursued this "cure" as well for many years. I had my positive mantras and multiple daily meditations. Kept in mind all of the things I liked about myself. I remember once writing a continuous list of all the things I liked about myself for days. Always focused on the positive, changed my perspective to no avoid all negative thought loops, etc. I was able to function but nothing improved the social phobia or anxiety.


You have to figure out the real reason you have social anxiety. It can be different for a lot of people. For example why is it that Ricky Williams who had bad social anxiety he even wore a helmet when dealing with the post game media could play football in front of 50k people to no ill effects? Clearly his anxiety didn't exist while playing football, why? It seems to me he was confident in his football game. He knew he was good so there was nothing to worry about. He wasn't confident in socializing with people. So basically he had some type of fear, maybe fear of embarrassing himself, or some type of fear his social skills were inept etc.

All fears like social anxiety or fears of spiders etc have a cause, and it is in your brain. Clearly there is a trigger in these specialized cases. If you're someone who is in a state of panic or fear all day long when you're not sleeping then maybe you do have a chemical disorder. However if it's a fear dealing with specific circumstances that means it's created in your head for some reason. The key is to figure out what for you personally is causing the anxiety.

I know for me I used to fear socializing because I basically was worried i'd say something stupid, hurt someone's feelings, I just wouldn't be able to continue the conversation etc. I've worked on those things and have made great improvements. Confidence comes from being good at things. So I feel better about socializing because I'm not as worried about looking like an idiot or hurting people's feelings. Because I've realized after having done it that it's not that big of a deal and I can get through it. If I say something stupid I can laugh at myself and make a joke. If I offend someone I can let them know I didn't intend to etc. See the thing is knowing these things isn't enough. You can know your fears are irrational but you have to actually ingrain it into your unconscious and the only way to do that is to basically over time slowly improve. So you socialize and over time you have less and less anxiety, your unconscious which regulates your emotions in reaction to things will learn to not make you anxious. Because your experiences become less and less threatening over time. You have to build up to it. If you want to talk further about this let me know.


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## FabledHero

minddrips said:


> I do not acknowledge social phobia, anxiety, and agoraphobia as mental illnesses, just perspectives.


Yeah I like this attitude because I think a lot of people will convince themselves there's something wrong with them. They think they're in some way messed up chemically. This leads them to rely on medication and they don't take the necessary steps to improve. I agree that anxiety can be overcome through self-improvement and exposure.

Also it's very complex to change your emotional reactions to things. It takes a ton of work and there's a lot of misleading advice. Things like, "Think positively" or "repeat a mantra" are very weak strategies. They may help a little but they aren't solving the problem. Often people have low self-esteem and low confidence, no matter how many positive phrases you say, it won't change the fact that you still don't believe in yourself. FIND OUT WHAT THE TRUE CAUSE OF YOUR ANXIETY IS. It is often a core belief or pattern that has developed in relation to some type of past pain. So many people avoid looking at the core of the cause and they get onto this hokey stuff like stop masturbating or stop having as much fun at home or think positively. Don't get me wrong thinking positively can be good at times, but it won't solve a problem this intricate.


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## hoddesdon

GreenBean09 said:


> Blast! There goes my strategy of temporarily abusing amphetamines to allegedly unclog my dopamine receptors. According to you I don't HAVE the receptors??


What he means is that your receptors do not work efficiently. I do not think anyone has fewer, just that they are impaired.


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## Inshallah

minddrips said:


> I am not joking, obviously there is still some of attachment to such way of thinking. You can try and do all these positive affirmations and such things like that but if you do not truly believe what you are saying, you are just bullsh*tting yourself. Instead of focusing on what is good and what is bad, realize that those are just your judgments that you project onto any given experience that comes into your awareness. There is no good or bad. There is just being.


Exactly.


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## Inshallah

FabledHero said:


> Yeah I like this attitude because I think a lot of people will convince themselves there's something wrong with them. They think they're in some way messed up chemically. This leads them to rely on medication and they don't take the necessary steps to improve. I agree that anxiety can be overcome through self-improvement and exposure.
> 
> Also it's very complex to change your emotional reactions to things. It takes a ton of work and there's a lot of misleading advice. Things like, "Think positively" or "repeat a mantra" are very weak strategies. They may help a little but they aren't solving the problem. Often people have low self-esteem and low confidence, no matter how many positive phrases you say, it won't change the fact that you still don't believe in yourself. FIND OUT WHAT THE TRUE CAUSE OF YOUR ANXIETY IS. It is often a core belief or pattern that has developed in relation to some type of past pain. So many people avoid looking at the core of the cause and they get onto this hokey stuff like stop masturbating or stop having as much fun at home or think positively. Don't get me wrong thinking positively can be good at times, but it won't solve a problem this intricate.


There's a great need for more aggressive and intense therapies. Something that would de-brainwash us. The therapies used nowadays are too gentle and don't produce.


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## Inshallah

TouchyBoy said:


> Here they are ... Also if you search forum you will realize how all the people who try amphetamines experience an anxiety reduction dizzying social circles, and if the internet you will find a high correlation between withdrawal of dopaminergic drugs and social anxiety.
> 
> Phenelzine in social phobia. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3700704
> 
> Phenelzine vs atenolol in social phobia. A placebo-controlled comparison. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1558463
> 
> Cognitive Behavioral Group Therapy
> vs. phenelzine therapy for Social Phobia - http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/apl/spsc/2003/00000057/00000004/art00011
> 
> Pharmacotherapy of social phobia. A controlled study with moclobemide and phenelzine. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1393304
> 
> Also here is more evidence that the defienza of dopamine is linked to social anxiety.
> 
> Association of ADHD, tics, and anxiety with dopamine transporter (DAT1) genotype in autism spectrum disorder. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19120712
> 
> The relation of the dopamine transporter gene (DAT1) to symptoms of internalizing disorders in children. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9670597
> 
> Modafinil for Social Phobia and Amphetamine Dependence - http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/arti...ticleid=175869
> 
> Parkinson and social phobia - http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=104280
> 
> http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/36125-social-anxiety-dopamine-parkinson
> 
> All these methods can be beneficial ... it is obvious that one must take into account that any treatment which leads to an increase of the receptors is reversible! If I take an antidepressant (for example) for a number of months and I receptors increases, this increase will last for a while 'and then the receptors return to baseline (this is where we would want to open another discussion on the switch depression / mania created by the drugs and their weight in increasing bipolar disorder but it is off-topic). If I have a problem of addiction (gambling, internet, video games, drugs, alcohol, food) and in addition to taking a drug that increases my receptors also solve the problem, it is obvious that once you stopped taking the drug the number of receptors after a while 'drops, but not at the level of before, but remains higher because it was the problem of addiction that kept the receptor below the normal level of the base.
> 
> If you are looking for a treatment that followed for some 'time will increase the dopamine receptors, and then once you stop them leaving high for life, then I am sorry but it does not exist.
> 
> However, the best medication to stabilize dopamine is memantine. To learn more ... tricyclic antidepressants and SSRIs (the latter I'd take them ever) increase the number of D2 receptors, however, we have seen that their ability antidepressant (linked to this increased receptor) is due to the forcing of passage from one state to a manic depressive and this can potentially occur in all people, even those who have never had bipolar symptoms, sensitizing people to cycle depression / mania / depression / mania ... so even if you treat depression can potentially create the basis for ricarderci.
> The solution is the use of memantine, which increases the number of D2 receptors without forcing the cycle depression / mania, but rather acting as a powerful mood stabilizer.
> 
> Anyway here are a couple of studies that relate the density of D2 receptors social anxiety.
> 
> Low Dopamine D2 Receptor Binding Potential in Social Phobia - http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?Volume=157&page=457&journalID=13
> 
> Social Phobia and OCD - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/da.20268/pdf
> 
> It is not correct ... it is true that there are various factors and perhaps do not know all, but now they know a lot (and I believe that is enough) can effectively treat social anxiety ... The real problem is that doctors are not scientists and researchers are not doctors, so many treatments that can be effective can not be used. If you have the desire to read to you briefly summarize some information about the causes and cures.
> 
> First of all ... You know what psychopathy (or antisocial said)? After I post some links but if you search the internet you will also find other things more interesting. It is a treatable disorder that is treated poorly because it is closely tied to the character and personality of the individual ... and already this is one thing in common with social anxiety, which as far as we can not discuss at all like the depression that comes and goes the cure, but it's more like a stable trait, though treatable. Deepening (you can too) we see that in reality the social anxiety and psychopathy are exactly the opposite of a line ... not only that they have many differences, two disorders is that they are exactly opposite, ie an equivalent of the other way around, and this is very helpful because it gives us confirmation of some hypothesis.
> 
> First is the first thing considered is the most social activation of the amygdala in anxiety, while in psychopaths is a ipoattivazione amygdala. The hyper-activity in the amygdala is known in all anxiety disorders, is a common factor, then change the situation in which what 'happens.
> 
> Another point (actually tied to the previous one) is that people with social anxiety have elevated fear conditioning ... and of course the opposite is true for psychopaths, or have a poor learning ability of adverse stimuli.
> 
> More ... it is seen that in people with social anxiety are actually activated in a higher than normal two areas of the brain ... One is the aforementioned amygdala, the other is the vmPFC, which is the area of representation of the self seen in a social context. It was found that psychopaths have dysfunction in these two areas.
> 
> A hormonally psychopaths have a low level of alpha-amylase under conditions of stress ... those suffering from social anxiety is higher than normal levels. In particular, the levels of aggression depend on the interaction of multiple systems ... a at a low level of alpha-amylase cortisol has no influence on aggression, if the alpha amylase is high more the salt more cortisol is to reduce levels of aggression (while if it falls levels of aggression rise) ... the level of aggressiveness does not depend on the level of testosterone or cortisol, but the ratio between the two ... if the ratio is high aggression is high, if it is low aggression is low. Social anxiety has been shown that cortisol can not be considered a marker while the alpha-amylase is, but you also know that one of the characteristics of social anxiety is the low level of aggression and was not taken into account relationship between testosterone and cortisol.
> 
> Here I report some studies (but there are other network).
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20888872
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21831605
> 
> http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=107001
> 
> http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223 (06) 00788-8/abstract
> 
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi% 2F10.1371% 2Fjournal.pone.0015238
> 
> http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/12/23/scan.nsr095.abstract
> 
> http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?Volume=165&page=124&journalID=13
> 
> http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?Volume=158&page=1220&journalID=13
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0005796709001466
> 
> http://www.psych.nyu.edu/phelpslab/papers/05_BehavResearTher_V43.pdf
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15997022
> 
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/14698986.3940505/abstract
> 
> http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/182/1/5.full
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2606709/
> 
> And now the icing on the cake!
> 
> Just learn a bit 'to understand that the most effective treatment for social anxiety disorder is phenelzine ... and happens to be a drug that has amphetamine-like action whose main characteristic is precisely to increase the dopamine ... other studies (some shown above) indicate that a low dopaminergic transmission (whether due to a lack of receptors, or from a low level of dopamine) is highly correlated to social anxiety and it seems that this system is to prevail over the other.
> 
> And as for the psychopathy? I talked about the absence of fear, lack of activation of the amygdala, but cool ... dopamine?
> 
> Ooops ... looks a bit '... what a coincidence! http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100314150924.htm
> 
> It appears that the caratteristica more substantial and decisive on the behavioral aspects of psychopaths is precisely an overactive dopamine system, which is leading to the expectation of a reward as superior to the risks and punishments to which it meets.


A lot of us here have been on hard drugs, MDMA, cocaine etc. Was the social anxiety better while on them? Yes. Was it "cured"? No, because the faulty thinking was still there. This should tell you that it's never been chemical in nature.


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## AxlSlash

Sweet! OP found the cure. Lets close this forum down. it's no longer needed. Plus we can't even look this site up anyway anymore since part of the cure is no computer.


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## Noca

Why is everything 'either or'? Why can't the cause be several things all related or connected on a level that is more complex than some one or two dimensional model of thought.


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## Inshallah

TouchyBoy said:


> However before you read and respond to quote at least what other people write ... apart from that I've talked to use hard drugs as a cure, but studies have shown people treated with phenelzine therapy or phenelzine + (which states that drugs are more effective), your argument does not make much sense.


It does. Drugs will make anyone better, that's why they are drugs. You don't think people without social anxiety would get anxiety reduction on Phenelzine? Of course they would.


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## Inshallah

Only talking about social anxiety here, something like depression where you are sad for no obvious reason is less likely to be faulty thinking related. But social anxiety where the anxiety only comes in specific situations...


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## DK3

I feel the brain is far more complex than current science understands, and we already know that in certain illnesses like bi-polar the brain can "re-wire" itself causing all kinds of problems. It maybe a similar problem with SA, and fear and our inappropriate response to it has become conditioned in the brain with some "re-wiring" and changes to brain chemistry.. it does feel that way to me, that fear (fight or flight) is massively amplified and there is something lacking which switches it off.

A large part of this illness though is related to self-image, confidence and how you feel about yourself. 

I think the drugs merely just treat symptoms and offer an unnatural "fix"...you can take an opiate, MDMA or some other euphoria drug (or even alcohol) and feel wonderful and normal for a while but when the drug wears off you're back to yourself. None of these are sensible long-term strategies for curing SA, not even prescription meds IMO. Unless of course you want to live your life dependant on drugs, and even then the chances of the drugs eventually stopping working are high for most drugs.

People often over look meditation and lifestyle changes such as healthy diet, proper sleep cycles, exercising (myself included) but they can have very beneficial effects and bring improvement. Finding out who you are as a person and what your role is, what you enjoying doing etc, is also helpful for self-esteem. Confidence definitely comes from confronting fears and a sense of achievement.


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## Inshallah

Yes, I said it before, start acting like a non-socially anxious person and the chemicals will eventually follow suit. Changing the chemicals without changing the thinking, while still helpful, is just masking symptoms. That's probably why most people who pop pill after the pill are the ones who are worst of, they put all the weight on the chemical scale and thus accomplish nothing.


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## reef88

Dr House said:


> Why is everything 'either or'? Why can't the cause be several things all related or connected on a level that is more complex than some one or two dimensional model of thought.


Like I've said before, it's not just dopamine, dopamine is just playing a role in this whole thing.


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## Inshallah

Holy **** Touchyboy! I'm going to read it all but it will take some time


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## Inshallah

I've read it all. I have to say anything dopaminergic or noradrenergic made my social anxiety and general anxiety worse. I have been on all kinds of drugs and there are many that made it worse, not a lot that actually made it better. I'm not convinced by the chemical story at all.

Of course a big chunk of your improvement comes from getting your *** out of the house and into the world, which is what most people take their stimulants and benzos for.


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## Hulgil

^ Remember, the "chemical imbalance" and "wrong thinking" hypotheses are not mutually exclusive. I think it's likely that some people have a neurochemical problem, and some people have an emotional/thinking problem. Therapy can help or not in either case; same for drugs. It looks like (self?-)therapy worked for you personally, but not drugs.



minddrips said:


> the cure is to stop feeding the negative emotional loops that come into your awareness. Once you stop pitying and start loving yourself you will realize it is all on perspective, not chemicals or disorders.


An error in cognition could mean the inability to "stop pitying and start loving yourself"; there's no reason to suppose that this one aspect of the human organism is immune from malfunction.

(You sound very certain; have you performed any sort of large-scale studies? It is perhaps uncharitable but part of me is thinking you have generalized from a few examples to conclude that your ideas always work for everyone.)



minddrips said:


> Yes, I have spent time with a paranoid schizophrenic for 5 years and he is only getting better, no thanks to any meds pharma provides, but through his experiences with ayahuasca, which allowed him to realize what is truly and has always been there.


So chemicals can be used to help "stop feeding the negative emotional loops that come into your awareness", and/or start loving yourself, and/or change your perspective? In other words, sometimes chemicals are needed to help what is normally called a "mental illness"?

You haven't explicitly said this isn't possible, but your comments about emotional loops seem to indicate you think medication can't be a solution.



Inshallah said:


> A lot of us here have been on hard drugs, MDMA, cocaine etc. Was the social anxiety better while on them? Yes. Was it "cured"? No, because the faulty thinking was still there. *This should tell you that it's never been chemical in nature.*


Should it? Isn't that actually much better for the hypothesis that the problem _is_ (in these cases) chemical in nature? Examine: Chemical alteration eliminates the problem for the duration of the chemical's effect. After chemical manipulation is no longer in effect, the problem returns. This is exactly what one would expect if it's fixing an underlying neurochemical problem: that the problem returns after the chemical wears off. That doesn't preclude the possibility of faulty thinking* being the root cause, but it's certainly not evidence that the problem isn't (neuro)chemical!

*Faulty thinking itself could be seen as a chemical problem.


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## Inshallah

No because that is what drugs are supposed to do. They 'fix' this just the same for everyone, even those without something to fix if you will. There is no chemical imbalance. There is just getting high on drugs and feeling better for the time being.

Give someone with an anxiety disorder a benzo and he will calm down. Give someone without an anxiety disorder a benzo and he will calm down just as well. There's no difference.


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## Hulgil

Inshallah said:


> No because that is what drugs are supposed to do. They 'fix' this just the same for everyone, even those without something to fix if you will. There is no chemical imbalance. There is just getting high on drugs and feeling better for the time being.
> 
> Give someone with an anxiety disorder a benzo and he will calm down. Give someone without an anxiety disorder a benzo and he will calm down just as well.


Sure, because drugs have about the same mechanism of action for everyone. That doesn't tell us anything about whether or not there's a chemical imbalance - that just tells us that benzos calm people down in general. If Person A lacks sufficient GABAergic activity, benzos will remedy that and make him or her feel calmer. If Person B has no imbalance but takes a benzo anyway, the benzo will still make them feel more relaxed, because it' still working on those GABA receptors. S/he might just get a little higher than Person A from the same dose, if that.

You seem to be saying that if a chemical imbalance was the cause, then benzos would have no effect on "normal" folks; that's clearly not correct. In other words, whether or not a chemical imbalance is present, you'd expect benzos to have an effect - they wouldn't magically not work for someone without an imbalance. Similarly, most other medications are also active whether or not a person has a problem; atenolol will lower your blood pressure, whether it's way too high or already way too low.

Of course, don't mistake this for either a refutation of the idea that the problem could be purely mental*, _or_ an assertion that it's definitely a chemical problem. I make no claim regarding that, only regarding whether or not the temporary efficacy of drug use is evidence for or against a chemical imbalance. You make a good point in that benzos could simply be overpoweringly calming and thus merely cover up the _real_ problem - but the evidence you give in favor of that hypothesis doesn't support it, so I felt it would be helpful to point that out.

_*As I mention in another post, I think almost any mental problem could be considered a chemical imbalance. Most would be temporary - ones you can fix by changing your thoughts or situation. Others may result from some physical error that cannot be changed from within; these permanent problems are what I, and I think you, refer to by "chemical imbalance"._


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## reef88

Inshallah said:


> No because that is what drugs are supposed to do. They 'fix' this just the same for everyone, even those without something to fix if you will. There is no chemical imbalance. There is just getting high on drugs and feeling better for the time being.
> 
> Give someone with an anxiety disorder a benzo and he will calm down. Give someone without an anxiety disorder a benzo and he will calm down just as well. There's no difference.


The difference is that the anxiety person would probably become more sociable or hyper due to the new sensation of being able to freely act without thinking what others think of himself/herself. Whereas the person who has no anxiety disorder will just feel sleepy and tired.


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## Hulgil

I've heard that a lot. People without anxiety disorders tend to report more sleepiness and no euphoria, in my experience. This is just anecdotal, though.


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## Inshallah

What I meant was, even though the drug has it's effect, whichever effect for whichever drug thay may be, the faulty thinking causing social anxiety persists and is thus not caused by something chemical. A lot here have tried every drug that works on everything possible and there seems to be no chemical cure. 

The only constant in all of it is that we all exhibit the same characteristic, faulty thinking that is so ingrained in ourselves by now, it is what we came to know as life itself.

Of course some people consider flying high on MDMA or cocaine as a cure but ok


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## Inshallah

reef88 said:


> The difference is that the anxiety person would probably become more sociable or hyper due to the new sensation of being able to freely act without thinking what others think of himself/herself. Whereas the person who has no anxiety disorder will just feel sleepy and tired.


Not true. Anyone, anxiety disorder or not, starts acting more disinhibited on benzo's or alcohol or whatever. I'd say it's rather the other way around, people with social anxiety won't start pulling off clothes on alcohol or exhibit other crazy behavior, non social anxiety sufferers apparently will.

The becoming sleepy with both benzo's and alcohol is more dose related than having an anxiety disorder or not having one.


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## istayhome

Inshallah said:


> What I meant was, even though the drug has it's effect, whichever effect for whichever drug thay may be, the faulty thinking causing social anxiety persists and is thus not caused by something chemical. A lot here have tried every drug that works on everything possible and there seems to be no chemical cure.
> 
> The only constant in all of it is that we all exhibit the same characteristic, faulty thinking that is so ingrained in ourselves by now, it is what we came to know as life itself.
> 
> Of course some people consider flying high on MDMA or cocaine as a cure but ok


As I've said before, I think genetics plays a huge role in mood disorders for some people. I think we all know from basic biology class that mutations occur regularly in every species. Most mutations are small, and it is certainly reasonable to assume that some people simply do not have "normal" neurotransmitter activity.

Abnormal brain activity would lead to faulty thought patterns about reality. Depending on what is going on in a persons brain a drug may help them, harm them or do nothing. Maybe someone has tried every drug out there and not found one that helps them. Perhaps pharmacology has a long way to go. Really, advances in medication for treating SA/depression haven't progressed in nearly three decades. Pharmaceutical companies actually would rather not create a medication that cured a problem, because then they wouldn't have a customer for very long. It is to their advantage to make medications that don't really work so that we'll have to keep trying and buying medications our whole lives.

The "cure" will never be one thing because everyone has different root causes for their problems. The old, "man up and change your thought patterns," won't work for everyone with SA because although SA is a symptom of faulty thought patterns, those faulty thought patterns are often a symptom of something else.

I am all for non-medication solutions and I aggressively pursued every avenue of that nature available to me for nearly a decade. I wasn't bs'ing myself I was working my butt off to get better. I only got worse and worse. So I have to believe that changing your patterns will not cure everyone. It is a good idea for everyone to consistently work on, but there is a lot more going on with this disorder for some people.


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## Hulgil

Inshallah said:


> What I meant was, even though the drug has it's effect, whichever effect for whichever drug thay may be, the faulty thinking causing social anxiety persists and is thus not caused by something chemical.


Well, if a drug is causing social anxiety to disappear, I don't think you can say the faulty thinking still exists - while the drug is in effect. It may return after the drug wears off, but that's also consistent with a chemical imbalance.

Again, I draw your attention to the fact that faulty thinking itself could be a product of a chemical imbalance, and is almost by definition: we only seem to disagree on whether it sometimes needs to be managed with medication, or whether willpower/therapy (?) alone can fix it.



Inshallah said:


> A lot here have tried every drug that works on everything possible and there seems to be no chemical cure.


Psychopharmacology is still in a primitive state; no one thinks it can cure every case. Some people can't be helped by medication, and some can - that's consistent with both an incomplete pharmacopeia and with some people having a chemical imbalance, some people having "faulty thinking." Remember, there's no chemical cure for many chemical disorders - but that doesn't mean they're not chemical (for example, sickle cell anemia).



Inshallah said:


> The only constant in all of it is that we all exhibit the same characteristic, faulty thinking that is so ingrained in ourselves by now, it is what we came to know as life itself.


You mention, above, all the people who haven't been helped by medication. What about all the people who have? I know of at least three in this thread alone, and I believe there have been studies that show a statistically significant number of people have benefited from psychiatric medications, for symptoms ranging from panic attacks to GAD.

In light of this, what makes you so sure you know what's happening with _all_ of us?


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## Inshallah

No drug has ever made my social anxiety disappear, I just got high and felt better.

If hard drugs can't do it, no legal drug ever will. Simply because it is and never has been drug related. I'm not buying in to the "different cause for everyone" neither. The mutual cause is the same classical distorted thinking exhibited by all of us.

Big difference between 'benefit', 'improvement', ... and cure. Of course drugs help, that is simply what they do.


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## istayhome

Inshallah said:


> I'm not buying in to the "different cause for everyone" neither. The mutual cause is the same classical distorted thinking exhibited by all of us.


Social anxiety is distorted thinking. It is a symptom of some other cause, of which there are probably many. You cannot just "fix the distorted thinking" and be cured. You have to fix the underlying cause of that thinking first. As I said I have tried everything that exists in my reality to fix that distorted thinking but the fact remains that I got worse. There has to be something else going on.

I'm not buying the the "man up and change your thinking, that's your problem." Because I nearly drove myself to suicide with that approach, persisting in trying to cure something that was impossible. It was like trying to force myself to turn lead into gold. My brother did commit suicide because he drove himself mad trying to fix his thinking and eventually couldn't.

Psychology strongly recognizes that SA and most mental illnesses can be caused by a number of factors. Trauma, abuse, genetics, drug abuse, etc. To say that the cure for everyone is to simply change your thinking seems pretty naive and ignorant of the facts of human physiology. Our thoughts and our biology are not separate they are completely intertwined.

For some people therapy works, others need a lot more. People have varying severity of SA symptoms and unfortunately there is no short and sweet one size fits all road to recovery.


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## reef88

Inshallah said:


> Not true. Anyone, anxiety disorder or not, starts acting more disinhibited on benzo's or alcohol or whatever. I'd say it's rather the other way around, people with social anxiety won't start pulling off clothes on alcohol or exhibit other crazy behavior, non social anxiety sufferers apparently will.
> 
> The becoming sleepy with both benzo's and alcohol is more dose related than having an anxiety disorder or not having one.


I used to be social anxious and I always became more sociable and extroverted, there was no sleepy effect (unless it was a high dose), I could actually be myself. I've given my brother Xanax and he's like "this ****'s for sleeping I don't feel anything but tired" so I stand behind my theory.


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## reef88

istayhome said:


> Social anxiety is distorted thinking. It is a symptom of some other cause, of which there are probably many. You cannot just "fix the distorted thinking" and be cured. You have to fix the underlying cause of that thinking first. As I said I have tried everything that exists in my reality to fix that distorted thinking but the fact remains that I got worse. There has to be something else going on.
> 
> I'm not buying the the "man up and change your thinking, that's your problem." Because I nearly drove myself to suicide with that approach, persisting in trying to cure something that was impossible. It was like trying to force myself to turn lead into gold. My brother did commit suicide because he drove himself mad trying to fix his thinking and eventually couldn't.
> 
> Psychology strongly recognizes that SA and most mental illnesses can be caused by a number of factors. Trauma, abuse, genetics, drug abuse, etc. To say that the cure for everyone is to simply change your thinking seems pretty naive and ignorant of the facts of human physiology. Our thoughts and our biology are not separate they are completely intertwined.
> 
> For some people therapy works, others need a lot more. People have varying severity of SA symptoms and unfortunately there is no short and sweet one size fits all road to recovery.


Actually manning up and doing everything you brain tells you not to do, or hesitate about doing, is what makes you not social anxious. I've had my periods of social anxiety, though very low anxiety, but I just say "**** it, I'm gonna be the cool dude I've been all this time" and just like that it starts to fade away, and I'm back to being sociable. Talking helps a lot, when feeling anxious just talk, ask a question make conversation, take your mind off of it. It might be just me, but it helps.


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## istayhome

reef88 said:


> Actually manning up and doing everything you brain tells you not to do, or hesitate about doing, is what makes you not social anxious. I've had my periods of social anxiety, though very low anxiety, but I just say "**** it, I'm gonna be the cool dude I've been all this time" and just like that it starts to fade away, and I'm back to being sociable. Talking helps a lot, when feeling anxious just talk, ask a question make conversation, take your mind off of it. It might be just me, but it helps.


I fully agree that this approach works well for many people. I did the same thing for a number of years hoping my SA would go away. But even after several years of going out every day and "faking 'till I make it," My anxiety got worse. What I have been saying is that this approach does not work for everyone with severe anxiety. I'm glad it worked for you. I just don't like some poster's insistence that it is "the cure" for everyone. I think some people have much more severe issues and much more severe causes of those issues.


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## Twelve Keyz

I never read the original thread and I really don't feel like reading through all of these posts. Can someone summarize how sensitizing dopamine receptors is the cure? What changes in lifestyle will I have to make and how does it solve the problem? Can you also provide some resources (e.g. scientific articles)?


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## istayhome

Twelve Keyz said:


> I never read the original thread and I really don't feel like reading through all of these posts. Can someone summarize how sensitizing dopamine receptors is the cure? What changes in lifestyle will I have to make and how does it solve the problem? Can you also provide some resources (e.g. scientific articles)?


The Op's idea that "sensitizing dopamine receptors is the cure" has been thoroughly debunked. This thread has basically devolved and people have shown that dopamine plays a role in Social anxiety. The OP's ideas have been disproved, and many posts have simply shown how drugs can affect dopamine which can help SA.


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## Hulgil

Inshallah said:


> No drug has ever made my social anxiety disappear, I just got high and felt better.


Are you saying that you were still socially anxious while (for example) using MDMA, or a high dose of benzos?

Whatever the case in your personal experience, though, you will note I was referring to the case "_if_ a drug made social anxiety disappear", and thus to those people who _do_ experience the cessation of anxiety while using a drug.



Inshallah said:


> If hard drugs can't do it, no legal drug ever will.


Now, how does that make sense? The distinction between legal and illegal drugs is not based on pharmacology or chemistry; new drugs - both legal and illegal - are being created all the time; and there are plenty of legal drugs more efficacious than illegal ones, for various purposes.



Inshallah said:


> Simply because it is and never has been drug related. I'm not buying in to the "different cause for everyone" neither. The mutual cause is the same classical distorted thinking exhibited by all of us.


Why do you think there can't be two or more causes? It would be fairly clear that all sufferers of social anxiety had the same basic problem _if the same treatment worked for all of them_ - yet the very opposite is the case. It is still something of a nebulous diagnosis; both the symptoms and the individual responses to various treatments vary widely across the (socially anxious) population. Similarly, depression can be lifelong, situational, or even the result of bonking your head in a football game; people born depressed, people just sad about things, and people with physical brain abnormalities all present similar symptoms.

I notice you say, above, that depression might be a different case from social anxiety. I agree; I think ingrained thought patterns and/or emotional issues from childhood are quite likely to be behind social anxiety, for many people. For most of this exchange I have been laboring under the impression that you thought *no* anxiety disorders were the result of a chemical imbalance; is this right, or do you refer specifically to social anxiety?

I believe I myself have a chemical imbalance, for reasons other than social anxiety (and other than _only_ mental problems too, come to that), but I believe my _social_ anxiety was fixed through correcting faulty thinking. However, I see no reason to suppose that social anxiety is different enough from GAD or depression to eliminate the possibility of a chemical cause in some. I've asked you twice before now, IIRC, but I'd like to bring it to your attention again: _why are you so sure?_



Inshallah said:


> Big difference between 'benefit', 'improvement', ... and cure. Of course drugs help, that is simply what they do.


I'm glad we agree that they can help. I don't believe I ever say they necessarily cure, though, so we're not in disagreement there either. I will note that at least one person in this thread has had the experience of having his social anxiety cured by a drug, though.


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## loophole

Here's the facts.. one person's issues can't speak for everyone else's. what works for one or some may not work or help in the slightest for others.. Humans have a lot of the same physical traits but as for our brains and innards.. we are very very different. Find what works for you and go with it. If OP's Ideas work for him and he's trying to pass on the info so others may try to put it to a test then that's fine, but op should not be saying that this is the cure all for the whole community (not sure if he is). for me.. Sun light and walks work well... but it doesn't change the fact I still have good and bad days.. we are all different. Don't believe people that say you don't need medicine period. And don't believe the people that say you need medicine period. we are all different.. take the time and effort and support from your family/dr.'s/ therapists. But most of all take the time and effort for yourself.. Only you truly know how YOU feel. That's all that really matters.


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## OGKush

wow just finished the whole thread... very interesting stuff...

so one side says "its a chemical imbalance" the other side "its not, just change your thought patterns and fake it till you make it".... in my opinion, theres definetly a relation between faulty thought patterns and chemical imbalance... one person said that MDMA, benzos, alcohol didnt cure his social anxiety... well for me MDMA and alcohol kinda did (not in a permament way of course), as in every bit of anxiety and akward feelings were gone while interacting... my thoughts where also not the invasive SAish, as in hyperfocusing on any social threats... I was free to focus on the conversation I was having....

also, a friend that doesnt have social anxiety at all, took MDMA and the day after (where you supposedly feel depressed because whatever neurotransmiter was depleted) he told me he felt weird and he would take teasing personal... he summed it up that he felt like a ***** , 

so what do we do? change the chemicals so the thoughts change? or change the thoughts so the chemicals change?

its weird that when were feeling really confident, negative thoughts are almost discared, its almost hard to be negative, while if we feel depressed its the opposite


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## istayhome

OGKush said:


> so what do we do? change the chemicals so the thoughts change? or change the thoughts so the chemicals change?


Well, both actually work. We can strengthen neuron pathways in our brain by purposefully reinforcing them with our thoughts or by strengthening them with chemicals.Both drugs and thoughts can actually change the physical working of our brains.

What I've been saying though, based on my own experience of trying to change my brain by changing my thinking and having it miserably fail, and also having such little success with drug therapy. Also taking into account that almost everyone I'm related to is mentally ill. I would think that a lot of my symptoms come from genetic abnormalities. So I do the best I can Trying to keep the right attitude, thinking, beliefs, lifestyle as well as trying to find the most helpful medications.

My only objection has been people posting that Social anxiety, anxiety and even almost all mental illness is simply caused by faulty thinking and can be cured in everyone if we just change our thought patterns. I know from personal experience that this is not the case and I think it is quite demeaning to tell people who are terribly suffering that they're only problem is just that they aren't, can't or don't think the "right way."


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## reef88

istayhome said:


> Well, both actually work. We can strengthen neuron pathways in our brain by purposefully reinforcing them with our thoughts or by strengthening them with chemicals.Both drugs and thoughts can actually change the physical working of our brains.
> 
> What I've been saying though, based on my own experience of trying to change my brain by changing my thinking and having it miserably fail, and also having such little success with drug therapy. Also taking into account that almost everyone I'm related to is mentally ill. I would think that a lot of my symptoms come from genetic abnormalities. So I do the best I can Trying to keep the right attitude, thinking, beliefs, lifestyle as well as trying to find the most helpful medications.
> 
> My only objection has been people posting that Social anxiety, anxiety and even almost all mental illness is simply caused by faulty thinking and can be cured in everyone if we just change our thought patterns. I know from personal experience that this is not the case and I think it is quite demeaning to tell people who are terribly suffering that they're only problem is just that they aren't, can't or don't think the "right way."


Xanax showed me how not to be socially anxious, I learned from it and even after quitting and I was socially anxious, but I could manage many things and situations which I couldn't before.

I was the most socially awkward person ever, but my looks kinda made people not make fun of me and stuff, it's like you see a shy but good looking guy, it's not the same as seeing a shy nerd. But I suffered mentally, and therefore physically, mental issues manifested into physical symptoms, which we all know.

I self-medicated Xanax and thanks to it I got myself a girlfriend (god damn I love you Xanax), and ended up switching it for Zoloft, which worked wonders for me, I was the sociable guy talking to anyone without any of the hesitations and other problems socially anxious people have. I was a better me, and version 2.0. I'm still that guy, although I would say version 1.7., but I have come a major way from the guy I used to be. I got a girlfriend, I got friends, I find my way into conversations. I'm still a bit quiet, cause that's the nature of me, but anyone who really knows me, knows I'm quite the opposite, specially when I drink lol.

You have to help yourself, it's hard sometimes, to the point where you think everyone is talking **** about you and you look around and anyone with even a smile on their face is because they're laughing at you because of whatever. It feels hellish, but I for one with the help of drugs changed that. Therapy can work too, meditation, although I'm not into any of that stuff.


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## istayhome

beaches09 said:


> I've pondered this thought for years. Deeply pondered. Though I've never been able to go longer than a week. And I've only been able to do that a few times, pretty much ever. I do recall those couple times that I actually did go a week, I felt better and better each day. I can skip a day if need be, but by the time the end of that 2nd day hits, I'm usually ready to explode. It's so difficult man. I wish I could more thoroughly test this theory, I just don't know.
> 
> It would be so much easier if I could temporarily detach the freakin thing and stick it in the freezer, or something... But when it's right there with you, all the time, every minute of the day, how the hell do you ignore it.
> 
> Has anyone actually tried this for a decent amount of time and had some mental improvement/success in doing so?


I've thoroughly tested the theory back when I was 19 and decided to live like a monk. I don't really have any trouble going a week without sex/masturbation and I'm not on any SSRI's. But I have never noticed any sort of mood lift during a prolonged period of sexual abstinence.

Ghandi wrote a lot about how important sexual abstinence is for enlightenment. But Ghandi's writings are really a bunch of bs anyways. Maybe sexual abstinence will help someone, there is a very broad spectrum of sexuality. Some people just don't like sex and are happier without it.


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## istayhome

reef88 said:


> Xanax showed me how not to be socially anxious, I learned from it and even after quitting and I was socially anxious, but I could manage many things and situations which I couldn't before.
> 
> I was the most socially awkward person ever, but my looks kinda made people not make fun of me and stuff, it's like you see a shy but good looking guy, it's not the same as seeing a shy nerd. But I suffered mentally, and therefore physically, mental issues manifested into physical symptoms, which we all know.
> 
> I self-medicated Xanax and thanks to it I got myself a girlfriend (god damn I love you Xanax), and ended up switching it for Zoloft, which worked wonders for me, I was the sociable guy talking to anyone without any of the hesitations and other problems socially anxious people have. I was a better me, and version 2.0. I'm still that guy, although I would say version 1.7., but I have come a major way from the guy I used to be. I got a girlfriend, I got friends, I find my way into conversations. I'm still a bit quiet, cause that's the nature of me, but anyone who really knows me, knows I'm quite the opposite, specially when I drink lol.
> 
> You have to help yourself, it's hard sometimes, to the point where you think everyone is talking **** about you and you look around and anyone with even a smile on their face is because they're laughing at you because of whatever. It feels hellish, but I for one with the help of drugs changed that. Therapy can work too, meditation, although I'm not into any of that stuff.


It sounds like the accepted method of treating SA worked well for you. That's good. I think that's generally the method of treatment that medical community accepts. They put you on a benzo for immediate relief until the SSRI kicks in. All the while you work with therapy, systematic desensitization, etc. to get to the cause of your symptoms and learn how to manage them so you can live a better life. Right on! Sounds like life has gotten a lot better for you, keep it up!


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## Hulgil

beaches09 said:


> Has anyone actually tried this for a decent amount of time and had some mental improvement/success in doing so?


I tried it for quite a while (quite a while for me, anyway) - half a year, give or take a week or so. The problem is sorting out placebo from "activity-specific benefit"; nevertheless, I did it for long enough that I stopped concentrating on the fact of my abstinence, so I believe that may filter out some placebo effects, if there were any. I did feel like my energy increased a little bit after a few days, and I _might_ have felt a tiny bit more sociable, but those benefits were both nearly imperceptible and quickly vanished. After a while, the advantage was solely that I stopped thinking about sex at all and was able to concentrate on my intellectual purposes.


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## Inshallah

Hulgil said:


> Are you saying that you were still socially anxious while (for example) using MDMA, or a high dose of benzos?
> 
> *Yes!*
> 
> Why do you think there can't be two or more causes? It would be fairly clear that all sufferers of social anxiety had the same basic problem _if the same treatment worked for all of them_ - yet the very opposite is the case. It is still something of a nebulous diagnosis; both the symptoms and the individual responses to various treatments vary widely across the (socially anxious) population. Similarly, depression can be lifelong, situational, or even the result of bonking your head in a football game; people born depressed, people just sad about things, and people with physical brain abnormalities all present similar symptoms.
> 
> I notice you say, above, that depression might be a different case from social anxiety. I agree; I think ingrained thought patterns and/or emotional issues from childhood are quite likely to be behind social anxiety, for many people. For most of this exchange I have been laboring under the impression that you thought *no* anxiety disorders were the result of a chemical imbalance; is this right, or do you refer specifically to social anxiety?
> 
> I believe I myself have a chemical imbalance, for reasons other than social anxiety (and other than _only_ mental problems too, come to that), but I believe my _social_ anxiety was fixed through correcting faulty thinking. However, I see no reason to suppose that social anxiety is different enough from GAD or depression to eliminate the possibility of a chemical cause in some. I've asked you twice before now, IIRC, but I'd like to bring it to your attention again: _why are you so sure?_
> 
> I'm glad we agree that they can help. I don't believe I ever say they necessarily cure, though, so we're not in disagreement there either. I will note that at least one person in this thread has had the experience of having his social anxiety cured by a drug, though.


I was talking strictly about social anxiety indeed because it is just too specific to have a chemical cause at it's root. That would be like saying arachnophobia is caused by a chemical imbalance as well. The disorders for which there is no apparent reason (depression, general anxiety,...) are imo much more likely to have other causes than distorted thinking.

Taking myself as an example: I can 100% explain my social anxiety due to completely distorted thinking that has been going on since forever. I on the other hand can not explain my depression at all, not even for 1%.

Obviously someone with a predisposition to being anxious all the time might have something more going on.

Just look at what people are saying in other sections of this forum (therapy, frustration), I was flabbergasted at how ****ed up some of their thinking truly is. No wonder some have intense social anxiety with those kinds of thoughts going on.


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## CleverUsername

I feel my dopamine reward system works fine. I think that SA is caused by the shape of neural pathways in the brain, not the amount of neurotransmitters or receptors.


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## Thechemicals

AxlSlash said:


> Sweet! OP found the cure. Lets close this forum down. it's no longer needed. Plus we can't even look this site up anyway anymore since part of the cure is no computer.


well ive just come back from a long period of abstaining from the internet and i can only say that while youre completely dismissing my theory you could be missing out on perhaps a life changing solution. I see my thread has been completely derailed by someone who claims to have gone down this path with no result, and if that is the case then maybe your anxeity stems from something else and your case is a unique one. But dont put everyone else of trying it because it hasnt worked for you.
It isnt an easy task to disconnect totally from the electronic world, you will find yourself sitting at home frustrated with nothing to do and feeling depressed but the sacrifice is worth it in the long run.

Before i tried this method i was really awkward and couldnt connect with people very well, as much as i tried i always felt different and weird. I used to wonder how everybody else could socialize and connect and build relationships when i was always stuck in the corner with nothing to say.
But after a week of being bored stiff with no electronics or nothing to pass the time you begin to see everything clearer, its like you suddenly have all this drive and energy and actually enjoy socializing with fellow humans 100x more.
All the little things in life become more enjoyable and i feel constentally motivated to talk about anything and everything with people.
Without all that excess stimulation your home begins to feel like a prison that you must escape, and simply the drive to experiance new things overides the fear of social situations.

I beleive this is 100% due to dopamine, i recall a study showing that mouses kept in solitary confinement show upregulation of baseline dopamine and increased aggression, risk taking and sensation seeking.


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## Inshallah

Is it possible to specifically call out the person who derailed your thread? He or she deserves the limelight!


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## Thorsten

reef88 said:


> Not entirely true. Dopamine is not the cause of social anxiety. Benzodiazepines have nothing to do with Dopamine neurotransmitters and they temporarily cure social anxiety.
> 
> SSRI's also help to cure social anxiety, I used Zoloft for 6 months and it basically cured me. SSRI's don't work with Dopamine, they work with Serotonin.
> 
> So you can't just come out and say that Dopamine receptors are the ones to blame.


That isn't true either because by flooding your synapse with serotonin it agonizes many receptors such as 5HT1A, 1B, 2A and maybe a couple of others which all cause dopamine release. Zoloft is also a DRI at higher dosages so although you are completely saturated with sertotonin it is the release of dopamine which causes the efficacy of any antidepressant.

Also, benzos in fact do interact with dopamine. Why do you think they are so re-inforcing? There is an element of euphoria to them and this certainly isn't just caused by increased GABA transmission.

Lastly, social anxiety is a very complex thing but I would bet the D2/D3 receptors do have a significant role to play.


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## Thorsten

minddrips said:


> the cure is to stop feeding the negative emotional loops that come into your awareness. Once you stop pitying and start loving yourself you will realize it is all on perspective, not chemicals or disorders.


^This....

It's called obsessional depression and some might definite as OCD.

The cure is to change your life circumstances. Get rid of negative people, negative situations, negative anything.

Try to be around people that make you feel good. Being around people that you enjoy the company of can be wonderful for the soul.


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## Thechemicals

Inshallah said:


> Is it possible to specifically call out the person who derailed your thread? He or she deserves the limelight!


istayhome


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## Thechemicals

Thorsten said:


> ^This....
> 
> It's called obsessional depression and some might definite as OCD.
> 
> The cure is to change your life circumstances. Get rid of negative people, negative situations, negative anything.
> 
> Try to be around people that make you feel good. Being around people that you enjoy the company of can be wonderful for the soul.


Bull****


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## istayhome

Thechemicals said:


> well ive just come back from a long period of abstaining from the internet and i can only say that while youre completely dismissing my theory you could be missing out on perhaps a life changing solution. I see my thread has been completely derailed by someone who claims to have gone down this path with no result, and if that is the case then maybe your anxeity stems from something else and your case is a unique one. But dont put everyone else of trying it because it hasnt worked for you.


Not Guilty I say! I demand a fair and speedy trial by a jury of my peers in regards to this allegation.

The Chemicals, you started a discussion encouraging other members of this forum to discuss what you thought might be the cure. To give their suggestions, ideas, opinions and experiences. That's all I have done.

I encourage everyone to do everything possible to avoid being medicated, that is exactly what I did as I have stated multiple times throughout this thread. I am really glad that you found relief by abstaining from many electronic distractions.

As I've been very open about, the social anxiety and general anxiety I experience stems from many things, you are correct. Your cure has not been my cure. We have had different experiences, but mine is no less valuable than yours.

I think it is important that I expressed my views because this is a discussion forum. If someone stated "Zoloft is the Cure." Wouldn't it be important for those who were not cured by Zoloft to share their experiences, so as to present a fair and balanced discussion? Or should only people who emphatically agree with you post?


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## istayhome

Inshallah said:


> Is it possible to specifically call out the person who derailed your thread? He or she deserves the limelight!


You guys give me too much credit. I have never single-handedly derailed anything in all my life. If in fact this alleged "thread derailment" did occur there are many others who deserve credit as well, I really can't accept all this credit. I would like to thank the many other posters who contributed to this grand achievement.

Posting a thread about something non-medication related in the medication forum is sort of derailing it from the start so most of all a big warm round of applause to "the chemicals," because without him none of this would have been possible. Thank you. Thank you very much.


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## Inshallah

I thought he meant me but apparently you win


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## istayhome

Inshallah said:


> I thought he meant me but apparently you win


oh no my friend, you will certainly stand trial with me as a co-defendant for this alleged thread derailment. I mean this is a serious matter.


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## Inshallah

Good, I deserve that credit


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## Toth

I think the abstinence thing is bull****, but porn addiction is not. I saw some negative comments here about www.yourbrainonporn.com, but I have to tell you from first hand experience its pretty amazing.

I've had severe social anxiety since I can remember, so its more than just the PMO, but still it go much worse in my teenage years right around the time you can guess what happened.

I've given it up, and its almost been 3 months. Things were slowly getting better, and then bam last week it was like a lightning strike. For a solid week I felt like an entirely different human being... I went from anxiety all the time to solid eye contact with everyone I met, explaning myself clearly with only the tiniest of fear. My speech impediment was gone 95% (tripping over my own words etc), and I had more self confidence than I can remember in my entire life. It was obviously dopamine, and it was just sure bliss.

Yesterday it dropped back a bit after drinking too much the night before, but I have other health problems as well and I was just physically felt a bit ill yesterday. We'll see how today goes, but no matter whats its a gigantic improvement. I feel like I've lost 15 years of my life but I plan to get it back, and now I can actually see that its possible. I can now see what its like to be a person who is ok with being himself with the outside world.

So if your a guy with SAS and you use porn even semi regularly, just stop it... like right now.


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## misread

abstinence is not a long term solution for me..during the last abstinence period i became crazy/manic and ended up having sex with some girls i did not even know, it was delirium-like... after that i had the worst crash ever with depression and feelings of guilt.


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## istayhome

misread said:


> abstinence is not a long term solution for me..during the last abstinence period i became crazy/manic and ended up having sex with some girls i did not even know, it was delirium-like... after that i had the worst crash ever with depression and feelings of guilt.


Abstinence is not a good long term solution if we want mankind to continue existing.


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## Toth

Once again, not saying it has anything to do with abstinence. Its the porn addiction part for many I think.


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## Kanade

Oh no.. My depression is due to my excssive fapping :c


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## istayhome

haha, glad this thread was resurrected


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## GotAnxiety

I think using your imagination is way better then porn it more like a tantra meditation type deal with closed eyed visuals. I think porn contributes too pre ejaculation haha. Abstinence is real i think it like the laws of attaction when you wank it your doing the opposite of what you want cause your trying to attact a female the later will just repeal them. So hard too do lol im cutting the internet off my phone this month i think that will help with the porn part. The times that i went the longest i was actually turning girls away cause i didn't wanna give up my seed lol. just save it let it build up and when you do decide too have sex it will be real special. Sure you can have sex and wank it all the time but that may just take away the value and the importance of how this act really is .


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## riptide991

If you want to get over your porn addiction take an SSRI that will kill your sex drive. Then once you have gone without porn for 2 months add something to raise your drive again and you will be cured of porn. That's how I did it. I mean i still watch it maybe once a month but better than when I used to every day. I'd wake up drinking coffee and watch porn before work. I didn't even fap i just constantly watched it. I would still fap but watched it even without fapping.


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## InTheWorldOfNiM

reef88 said:


> Actually manning up and doing everything you brain tells you not to do, or hesitate about doing, is what makes you not social anxious. I've had my periods of social anxiety, though very low anxiety, but I just say "**** it, I'm gonna be the cool dude I've been all this time" and just like that it starts to fade away, and I'm back to being sociable. Talking helps a lot, when feeling anxious just talk, ask a question make conversation, take your mind off of it. It might be just me, but it helps.


so you are a mild case? well I'd imagine that that approach would be easier for a mild sufferer of social anxiety. For the more severe cases I'm pretty sure that that approach would only lead to potentual emotional harm in the future. If you do something unpleasant and try to say eff it and forget about it. sooner or later the thought of embaressment will recur later. social anxiety from what I'v learned is much more of a "feeling" than a particular thought pattern. the irrational thoughts are merely a side effect of social anxiety.


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## basuraeuropea

InTheWorldOfNiM said:


> so you are a mild case? well I'd imagine that that approach would be easier for a mild sufferer of social anxiety. For the more severe cases I'm pretty sure that that approach would only lead to potentual emotional harm in the future. If you do something unpleasant and try to say eff it and forget about it. sooner or later the thought of embaressment will recur later. social anxiety from what I'v learned is much more of a "feeling" than a particular thought pattern. the irrational thoughts are merely a side effect of social anxiety.


i agree with this with the exception of the feelings preceding thoughts part. there must be thoughts present before feelings are expressed, internally or externally. maladaptive thought processes, in tandem, perhaps, with a genetic predisposition toward the development of anxiety-spectrum disorders, are what lead to never-ending positive feedback loops (regenerative feedback loops), thus feeding the cyclical nature of the disorder(s). interrupting that loop is the difficult part.

but, yeah, likely to cause more harm than good in severe cases as it'll likely only feed positively (read: positively, not positivity) into the feedback loop.


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## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> i agree with this with the exception of the feelings preceding thoughts part. there must be thoughts present before feelings are expressed, internally or externally. maladaptive thought processes, in tandem, perhaps, with a genetic predisposition toward the development of anxiety-spectrum disorders, are what lead to never-ending positive feedback loops (regenerative feedback loops), thus feeding the cyclical nature of the disorder(s). interrupting that loop is the difficult part.
> 
> but, yeah, likely to cause more harm than good in severe cases as it'll likely only feed positively (read: positively, not positivity) into the feedback loop.


See that's always been iffy for me. People assume because we can think that our thought comes before any physiological change, but I think it's vice versa. I have experienced this myself, going from thinking negatively and seeing things in a different way to taking a drug and all of a sudden the only thoughts I have are positive and I view the world completely differently. So some sort of chemical made my thoughts different and not vice versa. We consider matters dealing with the brain to be fully in our control. When it comes to anything below our brain we accept that it's beyond our control. Even in the animal kingdom research has shown that raising certain hormones like serotonin changes the behaviour of squirrels, they start sharing their food and being more altruistic. So same in human beings, you have low serotonin you produce thoughts such as "no way am I going to share this, I need to preserve it". You increase serotonin and your thoughts are automatically swaying to a different side where you think "Yah I'll share this with such and such".


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## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> See that's always been iffy for me. People assume because we can think that our thought comes before any physiological change, but I think it's vice versa. I have experienced this myself, going from thinking negatively and seeing things in a different way to taking a drug and all of a sudden the only thoughts I have are positive and I view the world completely differently. So some sort of chemical made my thoughts different and not vice versa. We consider matters dealing with the brain to be fully in our control. When it comes to anything below our brain we accept that it's beyond our control. Even in the animal kingdom research has shown that raising certain hormones like serotonin changes the behaviour of squirrels, they start sharing their food and being more altruistic. So same in human beings, you have low serotonin you produce thoughts such as "no way am I going to share this, I need to preserve it". You increase serotonin and your thoughts are automatically swaying to a different side where you think "Yah I'll share this with such and such".


there is definitely a discord between those who believe altered neurotransmitter levels precede maladaptive thought processes and those who believe the opposite. but because social anxiety is highly linked to, well, social situations, thus, the more logical explanation is the latter, not the former.

not to say that raising certain neurotransmitters or lowering them, for that matter, won't have any effect, but rather what naturally is the most common pattern we see in anxiety-spectrum disorders? it's unknown, but one can postulate that maladaptive thought processes lead to maladaptive behavior and sentiment, even if said thought processes are subconscious because of the situational nature of the anxiety-spectrum disorders. and that logic is what what has placed me within that train of thought.

without the cerebrum we wouldn't think or feel anything at all - let's get rid of it!


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## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> there is definitely a discord between those who believe altered neurotransmitter levels precede maladaptive thought processes and those who believe the opposite. but because social anxiety is highly linked to, well, social situations, thus, the more logical explanation is the latter, not the former.
> 
> not to say that raising certain neurotransmitters or lowering them, for that matter, won't have any effect, but rather what naturally is the most common pattern we see in anxiety-spectrum disorders? it's unknown, but one can postulate that maladaptive thought processes lead to maladaptive behavior and sentiment, even if said thought processes are subconscious because of the situational nature of the anxiety-spectrum disorders. and that logic is what what has placed me within that train of thought.
> 
> without the cerebrum we wouldn't think or feel anything at all - let's get rid of it!


I understand where you are coming from, but I've for example had this since I was young. Is it possible that in the brain the neurons necessary for communication between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala didn't develop properly. Much like a child may not develop properly physically during puberty because of some hormonal abnormality or polymorphism in genes. I mean recent studies show that anxiety is simply the lack of communication between the amygdala and prefrontal cortex that causes abnormal fear when none is present. I mean I tell myself over and over and really do think there's no threat, yet I react as if there was one.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120706105430.htm

What's interesting is that the difference is that normal people who experience even social fear recover from it, the anxiety/fear subsides as it should. But in people who have social anxiety, will not recover from these experiences. So the brain is obviously processing information incorrectly.


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## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but I've for example had this since I was young. Is it possible that in the brain the neurons necessary for communication between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala didn't develop properly. Much like a child may not develop properly physically during puberty because of some hormonal abnormality or polymorphism in genes. I mean recent studies show that anxiety is simply the lack of communication between the amygdala and prefrontal cortex that causes abnormal fear when none is present. I mean I tell myself over and over and really do think there's no threat, yet I react as if there was one.
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120706105430.htm
> 
> What's interesting is that the difference is that normal people who experience even social fear recover from it, the anxiety/fear subsides as it should. But in people who have social anxiety, will not recover from these experiences. So the brain is obviously processing information incorrectly.


i'm playing devil's advocate as this is what my psychologist is telling me and i'm spewing it out onto the boards to see what response i get. i've long held your belief but admittedly my psych is making me doubt it. i have to do some digging up of information on both sides.


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## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> i'm playing devil's advocate as this is what my psychologist is telling me and i'm spewing it out onto the boards to see what response i get. i've long held your belief but admittedly my psych is making me doubt it. i have to do some digging up of information on both sides.


I wonder why depression and social anxiety is so high these days though. I mean we put so much chemicals in our foods and our water supply, not to mention pollution and such. I wonder how they have an impact on the evolution of the human race. Slowly some changes may be happening. Bacteria really do dictate a lot of what happens in our bodies, they are shown to evolve at an alarming pace, much quicker than anything else on this planet. In fact read a study that showed that a type of bacteria lives in some insect that eats crop and it actually makes it resistant to pesticides. The insect didn't have to evolve just the bacteria in its stomach. And this just happened recently as scientists were trying to figure out why the pesticides are not working anymore.

Whoa I'm going off topic haha.


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## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> I wonder why depression and social anxiety is so high these days though. I mean we put so much chemicals in our foods and our water supply, not to mention pollution and such. I wonder how they have an impact on the evolution of the human race. Slowly some changes may be happening. Bacteria really do dictate a lot of what happens in our bodies, they are shown to evolve at an alarming pace, much quicker than anything else on this planet. In fact read a study that showed that a type of bacteria lives in some insect that eats crop and it actually makes it resistant to pesticides. The insect didn't have to evolve just the bacteria in its stomach. And this just happened recently as scientists were trying to figure out why the pesticides are not working anymore.
> 
> Whoa I'm going off topic haha.


I think one factor that tends to contribute to the hyper-vigilant aspect of anxiety is so much noise pollution and the fats paced lifestyle that is so common.

I guess that very-likely could just be specific to me, but I spent a summer hiking and camping with some people and experienced almost no social anxiety, even running into people I was completely unfamiliar with. But in a city there is always the sound of cars, lights and a lot of people and things buzzing around. Even if I'm otherwise relaxed being in that situation will just really amplify general anxiety and social anxiety.

I think there are many factors that haven't even been considered that contribute to an increase in the number of people exhibiting mental illness.


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## riptide991

istayhome said:


> I think one factor that tends to contribute to the hyper-vigilant aspect of anxiety is so much noise pollution and the fats paced lifestyle that is so common.
> 
> I guess that very-likely could just be specific to me, but I spent a summer hiking and camping with some people and experienced almost no social anxiety, even running into people I was completely unfamiliar with. But in a city there is always the sound of cars, lights and a lot of people and things buzzing around. Even if I'm otherwise relaxed being in that situation will just really amplify general anxiety and social anxiety.
> 
> I think there are many factors that haven't even been considered that contribute to an increase in the number of people exhibiting mental illness.


I'm completely the same. I feel at peace when i'm out hiking or camping. Just hearing the wildlife and the wind and the air smells so good. I'd love to move somewhere in the woods but it would be a pain with the internet and groceries hehe.


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## Inshallah

A few days ago I was talking to a new psychiatrist, with the prospect of psychosurgery. He mentioned epigenetics and talked about how nothing is set in stone as far as genetics are concerned. That camp appears to be coming on stronger and stronger, according to him at least.


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> A few days ago I was talking to a new psychiatrist, with the prospect of psychosurgery. He mentioned epigenetics and talked about how nothing is set in stone as far as genetics are concerned. That camp appears to be coming on stronger and stronger, according to him at least.


i wish there were a form of psychosurgery that were able to rid me of the anxiety disorder that i have and, well, more importantly the accompanying symptomatology.

and kehcorpz, i just came back from a session with my psychologist where i threw at her various counterpoints to both her point of view and methodology. she rambled on about dr. amen before i interrupted her and asked her if she could help me or if she was just going to throw the same cbt/dbt/mindfulness meditation techniques that i know oh so well. her response? you challenge me; you are a brilliant patient, but i am a brilliant psychologist. she then ended the session by chiding me for not keeping a journal of what situational and/or emotional antecedents trigger anxiety and told me to bring such a list to the next appointment. that list is going to be all-encompassing with a lot of unknowns. ha.


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## istayhome

basuraeuropea said:


> i wish there were a form of psychosurgery that were able to rid me of the anxiety disorder that i have and, well, more importantly the accompanying symptomatology.


Hey, living the rest of my life with the mind of a chicken wouldn't be so terrible. I mean I'd have no awareness nothing but a small amount of instinct. Go ahead ane out all of my cns leaving only the brain stem I could just be a zombie. :teeth


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## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> i wish there were a form of psychosurgery that were able to rid me of the anxiety disorder that i have and, well, more importantly the accompanying symptomatology.
> 
> and kehcorpz, i just came back from a session with my psychologist where i threw at her various counterpoints to both her point of view and methodology. she rambled on about dr. amen before i interrupted her and asked her if she could help me or if she was just going to throw the same cbt/dbt/mindfulness meditation techniques that i know oh so well. her response? you challenge me; you are a brilliant patient, but i am a brilliant psychologist. she then ended the session by chiding me for not keeping a journal of what situational and/or emotional antecedents trigger anxiety and told me to bring such a list to the next appointment. that list is going to be all-encompassing with a lot of unknowns. ha.


LOL she sounds like a douche. Just print out the internet and have delivery men fill her office with it.


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## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> LOL she sounds like a douche. Just print out the internet and have delivery men fill her office with it.


she sort of is. i'm to be seen by the psychiatrist who heads the anxiety disorders program/institute at the university of california, san diego (ucsd). he's a fellow canadian! hopefully this guy will be able to provide anxiolysis without causing for extremely unpleasant side effects.


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## istayhome

basuraeuropea said:


> i wish there were a form of psychosurgery that were able to rid me of the anxiety disorder that i have and, well, more importantly the accompanying symptomatology.
> 
> and kehcorpz, i just came back from a session with my psychologist where i threw at her various counterpoints to both her point of view and methodology. she rambled on about dr. amen before i interrupted her and asked her if she could help me or if she was just going to throw the same cbt/dbt/mindfulness meditation techniques that i know oh so well. her response? you challenge me; you are a brilliant patient, but i am a brilliant psychologist. she then ended the session by chiding me for not keeping a journal of what situational and/or emotional antecedents trigger anxiety and told me to bring such a list to the next appointment. that list is going to be all-encompassing with a lot of unknowns. ha.


Hey, at least your psychologist will occasionally follow up with you regarding previous sessions "homework" and suggestions she has made. I've seen several supposedly renowned psychologist's who tout their Ph. D.'s; they will give me an "assignment" like keeping a journal maintaining a certain practice then never follow up with me the next session. I''ve brought it up and she'd try to cover her own a*s, "Oh yeah, I was just about to discuss that with you." Or even worse she would have not even remembered it or written it in her notes if I mentioned the activity was helpful, "oh see, you're doing great you've found ways to help yourself an you know I was going to suggest this to you." Or if it was dumb and useless, "why would you do something like that it sounds like you're doing things knowing that they will make your condition worse."

After a couple moths of seeing her and getting nowhere I took her advice on a referral to see a new psychiatrist who she claimed was great and would be the best psychiatrist for me. He turned out to be the worst psychiatrist imaginable he was actually verbally abusive during the appointment and so messed up that he was either senile or on drugs (he told me that Benzodiazapines are stimulants and he couldn't remember my name, kept making jokes about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, telling me totally random stories and trying to bully me into taking medications which I'd already taken and new didn't work for me). I was so terrible at the time the time that after seeing him I was nearly suicidal. The Next day he called me and fired me as a patient then sent an express overnight letter firing me as his patient. That's good because I never would have seen him again. I filed an official complaint with the state medical board because I didn't want anyone else to be subjected to his awfulness.

I then decided that my psychologist didn't know me at all and couldn't help me so I called her to talk about it and tell her I was going to stop seeing her. She kept insisting that we were about to have a "magnificent breakthrough" within the next two weeks and she had been worried about me because she knew that I would try to sabotage myself at this point. Yeah right doc :idea

It has taken me years to find adequate treatment in my area, way too many hacks.


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## Inshallah

Why did that psychiatrist fire you as a patient? I've never heard of that before. He must have been crazy himself. A psychiatrist firing patients rofl


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## istayhome

Inshallah said:


> Why did that psychiatrist fire you as a patient? I've never heard of that before. He must have been crazy himself. A psychiatrist firing patients rofl


He fired me because I would not accept the Zoloft and Buspar prescriptions. His office is 40 miles away from me. I left the appointment saying I didn't want those drugs because I'd already taken them in the past and they were not helpful. The next day I called him in desperation because I was so depressed and asked again if he would consider any other treatment, one besides an ssri, one that might actually help. He said no and I should take the Zoloft and Buspar. But he had a policy that in order to get ANY prescription from him you had to pick it up at his office in person.

He fired me because I wouldn't follow his policy of going to his office to pick up the written prescription. The prescription I didn't want in the first place.

Truly he fired me because I asked questions and he didn't want to or know how to treat me. Like I said I would not have seen him again anyways.


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## jon 29 uk

Most SA peeps eat high sugar in the west.. this article suggests sugar disrupts the dopamine receptors i believe. An exerpt from Wikipedia (Sugar addiction) '

_*'A 2008 study noted that sugar affects opioids and dopamine in the brain, and thus might be expected to have addictive potential. It referenced bingeing, withdrawal, craving and cross-sensitization, and gave each of them operational definitions in order to demonstrate behaviorally that sugar bingeing is a reinforcer. These behaviors were said to be related to neurochemical changes in the brain that also occur during addiction to drugs. Neural adaptations included changes in dopamine and opioid receptor binding, enkephalin mRNA expression and dopamine and acetylcholine release in the nucleus accumbens.''*_[4]


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## riptide991

Odd I've always hated sugar and have been eating healthy all my life. I mean I eat stuff like buckwheat, lentils, kidney beans, chick peas, etc..

When I was a kid I would give away all my candy on halloween and just keep the bags of chips.


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## ragnarok

I haven't masturabted for 90 days now to test that porn/dopamine circuit problem and my SA hasn't changed at all, i'm not sure whether this "no fap" trend is just baloney or it just didn't do anything for me personally.


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## riptide991

ragnarok said:


> I haven't masturabted for 90 days now to test that porn/dopamine circuit problem and my SA hasn't changed at all, i'm not sure whether this "no fap" trend is just baloney or it just didn't do anything for me personally.


I think the no fap thing only applies to your sex life. People who watch porn excessively and flip between images that make them aroused tend to have problems in bed with women. This is because their brain is used to the constant flipping and novelty that porn provides and a single partner does not provide that. If you fap just don't watch porn excessively, do it using your imagination.


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## Inshallah

istayhome said:


> He fired me because I would not accept the Zoloft and Buspar prescriptions. His office is 40 miles away from me. I left the appointment saying I didn't want those drugs because I'd already taken them in the past and they were not helpful. The next day I called him in desperation because I was so depressed and asked again if he would consider any other treatment, one besides an ssri, one that might actually help. He said no and I should take the Zoloft and Buspar. But he had a policy that in order to get ANY prescription from him you had to pick it up at his office in person.
> 
> He fired me because I wouldn't follow his policy of going to his office to pick up the written prescription. The prescription I didn't want in the first place.
> 
> Truly he fired me because I asked questions and he didn't want to or know how to treat me. Like I said I would not have seen him again anyways.


What an ******* :teeth


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## Inshallah

ragnarok said:


> I haven't masturabted for 90 days now to test that porn/dopamine circuit problem and my SA hasn't changed at all, i'm not sure whether this "no fap" trend is just baloney or it just didn't do anything for me personally.


90 days is only just scratching the surface really, for real social anxiety annihilation you need to quit fapping for 900 days.


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## istayhome

Inshallah said:


> What an ******* :teeth


yeah, he had a God-complex. He spent half an hour explaining to me that zoloft was mostly water soluble. It was a huge waste of time. I was his last appointment, I pai for an hour but he kept me there for three hours even as insisted I leave he just had to prove to me that he knew everything. He was in his 90's and certainly hadn't read any new medical information for at least 2-3 decades.


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## riptide991

Inshallah said:


> 90 days is only just scratching the surface really, for real social anxiety annihilation you need to quit fapping for 900 days.


Haha, that's insane. He's going to be dropping loads in his sleep.


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## InTheWorldOfNiM

I know a guy who watches porn practicaly everyday. He's still the same annoying extrovert as he was in the first grade.


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## istayhome

I neither masturbate or watch porn, why Isn't my SA gone?

Crape, ate some carrots last night, they have carbs, I bet that was a MAJOR setback. Also an average looking woman gave me a compliment when I was in town yesterday. I had trouble talking to her AND to everyone who spoke with me yesterday, seeing women must also make me impossible to rid myself of SA. Maybe I'll progress quicker if I eat nothing and never leave my house. Then I would free myself of SA-causing stimuli. Yep locking myself in my room and never going out to get food will help my make great progress in overcoming SA and agoraphobia.


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## riptide991

istayhome said:


> I neither masturbate or watch porn, why Isn't my SA gone?
> 
> Crape, ate some carrots last night, they have carbs, I bet that was a MAJOR setback. Also an average looking woman gave me a compliment when I was in town yesterday. I had trouble talking to her AND to everyone who spoke with me yesterday, seeing women must also make me impossible to rid myself of SA. Maybe I'll progress quicker if I eat nothing and never leave my house. Then I would free myself of SA-causing stimuli. Yep locking myself in my room and never going out to get food will help my make great progress in overcoming SA and agoraphobia.


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## InTheWorldOfNiM

istayhome said:


> I neither masturbate or watch porn, why Isn't my SA gone?
> 
> Crape, ate some carrots last night, they have carbs, I bet that was a MAJOR setback. Also an average looking woman gave me a compliment when I was in town yesterday. I had trouble talking to her AND to everyone who spoke with me yesterday, seeing women must also make me impossible to rid myself of SA. Maybe I'll progress quicker if I eat nothing and never leave my house. Then I would free myself of SA-causing stimuli. Yep locking myself in my room and never going out to get food will help my make great progress in overcoming SA and agoraphobia.


lol, I'd rather just stick with drugs.


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## MushroomMan

OP you appear to have a grossly oversimplified view of social anxiety. In my opinion, its like depression, there may be different neurochemical causes for different people. I've been on dexedrine for a few years and I take high doses in order to flood my brain with dopamine which relaxes me, and this actually induces social anxiety in me. Opioids also inhibit my ability to socialise. Opiates inhibit GABA release and increase dopamine release. Conversely, GABA_A agonists (benzos), GABA_B agonists (i.e. GHB, phenibut) and gabapentin do the opposite, they rid me of all social anxiety. GABA agonists actually inhibit dopamine release, so I'm fairly confused how people here have come to the conclusion that the main cause of social anxiety is a deficiency of dopamine activity. If that were the case, then wouldn't drugs like bromocriptine be prescribed as anxiolytics, rather that GABAergic drugs like benzos? 

However, in my experience cocaine obliterates my social anxiety. Cocaine is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. Why does amphetamine do the opposite? Could release of norepinephrine be the cause of my amphetamine induced social anxiety. I wanna put that to the test. I can easily test that one out by taking clonidine with amphetamine (clonidine is an a2 agonist so it inhibits the release of norepinephrine). Unfortunately my doc is opposed to prescribing me clonidine for some reason. As for serotonin, serotonin agonists psilocybe mushrooms seem to reduce my social anxiety (unless I'm having a bad trip, then its the polar opposite), but trazodone (a serotonin antagonist) seems to reduce social anxiety too.

The most effective remedies for SA I have tried are benzos. Next is gabapentin. Then GABA_b agonists. Most other classes of drugs seem to make my SA worse. I don't have a problem with anxiety (besides social anxiety) though, so I haven't really experimented with anxiolytics. An interesting one I would like to try is afobazole. As far as I know its non addictive and has neuroprotective properties. A really interesting one is 7,8-dihydroxyflavone. I read an article which claimed that it may make benzos and SSRIs obsolete because it treats anxiety and depression without the side effects (i.e. rapid buildup of tolerance, horrific withdrawals etc.).


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## MushroomMan

InTheWorldOfNiM said:


> lol, I'd rather just stick with drugs.


You may regret that decision in the future. I took dexedrine daily for a few years to remedy lethargy/drowsiness, and now that I've quit I have a bad case of ADHD. I've downregulated my dopamine receptors. Thats what led me to this thread, I'm looking into ways to upregulate and resensitize my dopamine receptors, and regenerate dopaminergic neurons. For upregulating and resensitizing receptors, forskolin and uridine look promising.

For accelerating neurogenesis, I've started taking a combo of supplements to enhance NGF (nerve growth factor) which are phosphatidyl serine, glycerophospho choline, acetyl carnitine, alpha lipoic acid and coenzyme Q10.

If you're gonna use drugs as a long term solution, you wanna use good drugs. Afobazole seems to be a decent one.


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## MushroomMan

I forgot to mention histamine. I think theres a connection between anxiety and histamine. I'm more or less immune to regular anxiety, but when I took modafinil last week I got a moderate case of it. The worst anxiety I have ever had was during a phenibut withdrawal so theres definitely a strong connection with GABA_b receptors and anxiety. Besides that, cannabis gives me pretty bad anxiety and CBD, which is a non competitive cannabinoid receptor antagonist is supposedly an anxiolytic so theres a connection with cannabinoid receptors. I'd like to experiment with CB antagonists but I don't know if there are any available. 

I think they experimented with CCK and CRF antagonists as anxiolytics. Proglumide can be ordered over the internet in a product called Milid. I'd say kappa opioid antagonists would have some anxiolytic properties but I don't know of any strong ones that are readily available.


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## socialpiranha

I cant find the study right now, but i believe social defeat does downregulate the d2 receptor in the striatum. also, i believe the subjects who stayed within the group after the social defeat were not affected only the ones who isolated themselves immediately after. also another study found higher d2 densities in humans with higher social status. Its almost as if the d2 receptor isnt involved in the sensation of anxiety but motivation or ability to remain social despite social defeat. This would make sense because dopamine the d2 receptor is reward oriented. also, it could explain why amphetamines might help even while causing sensations of anxiety. If you think about it, if you are chronically being defeated socially, there is going to be a mechanism which makes you avoid those situations and it will do that by making you feel ****ty. lack of motivation anxiety etc, if the majority of the things in life which bring pleasure(social interaction) are turned into things which make you feel unmotivated and anxious this would be what they call "depression". I think the difference between someone who gets socially defeated a lot and doesnt get social anxiety disorder and someone who does is the severity of the physical experience of being socially defeated. maybe some people are either genetically or otherwise capable of a more severe physical response which creates a more severe avoidance response.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322309009652

Dopamine Type 2/3 Receptor Availability in the Striatum and Social Status in Human Volunteers


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## istayhome

ugh, I can't believe that this thread was resurrected from the dead. The thesis statement made by the original poster is thoroughly debunked. As for the few posts above,
@Mushrrom Man: I see no problem for the people with serious anxiety and depression problems to continue using drugs indefinitely. If you read through this entire thread, You will see that in my posts how I detail that I spent nearly a decade trying everything under the sun except pharmaceuticals in an attempt to just manage my social anxiety and depression so that I did not get worse. But despite my very best efforts in doing everything right, I only got worse until I finally had to use pharmaceuticals to live. I will no doubt stay on drugs my whole life. After using pharmaceuticals for many years, I long held out hope that I could get and stay well enough to not need them. Unfortunately that is not the case. It is not out of laziness or happiness, but I am afraid that not matter what, due to thr severity of my condition, I will likely never get of drugs, until I have a death wish.

Also: people keep talking and posting studies about CBD, but that is not a legitimate medical option and likely will not be anytime in the near future. So I think to discuss what CBD might or might not do is really fruitless. This is like if I worked for a pharmaceutical company and I knew about some drug that was starting to take shape but wasn't yet in Phase I trials and I began talking about said drug in a serious manner. It would not matter. Because no one has received actual treatment with said drug and we have no idea about how it may or may not work in the real world.


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## jim_morrison

Why would you want to oversensitize dopamine receptors? That's a recipe for movement disorders.


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## socialpiranha

I agree with "touchyboy" i believe i have a genetic predisposition to social phobia, drugs can work well for me but as soon as i go off of them i am in the same place as before, also exercising eating healthy, being financially stable, and thinking positively works as well as drugs .....But these things work because they either suppress a physical response or make the physical response acceptable by increasing enjoyment of other aspects of life. as soon as one or more of those things fails or a stressful situation occurs im capable of being sent back to being depressed and socially phobic. I think this is often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder because of the sudden drastic differences in mood. Its possible that the predisposition is a disorder of the parasympathetic nervous system which counteracts(acts as brakes for) the central nervous system. Any real cure would probably have to be at a genetic level imo.


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## istayhome

socialprisoner said:


> I agree with "touchyboy" i believe i have a genetic predisposition to social phobia, drugs can work well for me but as soon as i go off of them i am in the same place as before, also exercising eating healthy, being financially stable, and thinking positively works as well as drugs .....But these things work because they either suppress a physical response or make the physical response acceptable by increasing enjoyment of other aspects of life. as soon as one or more of those things fails or a stressful situation occurs im capable of being sent back to being depressed and socially phobic. I think this is often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder because of the sudden drastic differences in mood. Its possible that the predisposition is a disorder of the parasympathetic nervous system which counteracts(acts as brakes for) the central nervous system. Any real cure would probably have to be at a genetic level imo.


I totally disagree.

1)"also exercising eating healthy, being financially stable, and thinking positively works as well as drugs": Now way! re=read my posts in this thread. have done all that stuff 'till I had run myself to nearly death. It did nothing, I ended up agoraphobic and a breath away from dying. You know what did help, Medication. Only Medication.

2)"But these things work because they either suppress a physical response or make the physical response acceptable by increasing enjoyment of other aspects of life. as soon as one or more of those things fails or a stressful situation occurs im capable of being sent back to being depressed and socially phobic. I think this is often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder because of the sudden drastic differences in mood."
If things work out for you in this way, I can't argue with that but I really think that if you are forming these conclusions without the help of a professional, then you are forming faulty conclusions. and this is not often misdiagnosed as bilpolar, unless the doctor is a total hack.

3)"Its possible that the predisposition is a disorder of the parasympathetic nervous system which counteracts(acts as brakes for) the central nervous system. Any real cure would probably have to be at a genetic level imo"

It is not possible to have a "predisposition is a disorder of the parasympathetic nervous system "
I suggest that you reeducate yourself as to what the parasympathetic nervous system is. The parasympathetic nervous system can not have a genetic disorder, so it can not be "cured at a genetic level," that is if it were possible to cure anything at a genetic level which it is not. Those ideas are thoughts of science fiction.

Your whole discussion of the parasympathetic is totally bizarre to me, are you sure that you know all about the parasympathetic nervous system.


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## inerameia

MushroomMan said:


> OP you appear to have a grossly oversimplified view of social anxiety. In my opinion, its like depression, there may be different neurochemical causes for different people.


You're downplaying the possibility that it happens this way in some people. He didn't say low dopamine receptors causes SA for everyone. He was clear that everyone's brain chemistry is different, thus different causes are very likely to cause SA. I have ADHD, which is a neurological disorder. People with ADHD have low dopamine, or possibly, low dopamine receptors. I have a hard time socializing because of ADHD and that's why I developed SA about 7th grade. Although, a lot of people with SA probably don't have ADHD; they probably had different causes for their SA. There isn't an oversimplification; you just didn't read what he said.


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## istayhome

omofca said:


> You're downplaying the possibility that it happens this way in some people. He didn't say low dopamine receptors causes SA for everyone. He was clear that everyone's brain chemistry is different, thus different causes are very likely to cause SA. I have ADHD, which is a neurological disorder. People with ADHD have low dopamine, or possibly, low dopamine receptors. I have a hard time socializing because of ADHD and that's why I developed SA about 7th grade. Although, a lot of people with SA probably don't have ADHD; they probably had different causes for their SA. There isn't an oversimplification; you just didn't read what he said.


read this thread all the way through so that you can understand the fallacy that the Original Poster is suggesting.


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## pattypop

Ok, I came across this article a couple days ago and just today I stumbled across an article about training the working memory, which goes on to say that it has been proven that memory training increases dopamine receptors... check it out here

http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/memory-medic/201203/training-working-memory-why-and-how

What do you think?

I've been on a training binge since I start Uni -

One think is for sure - my working memory is stronger and therefore my thoughts are clearer which allows me to hold myself a little taller and feel more confidant in social situations. Maybe memory is part of the whole picture?


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## barry1685

I think SA is from a number of things:

*GABA *- CNS slows down brain thinking and thus lowers anxiety - doesn't cure depression.

*Dopamine* - Pleasure receptors which allow socializing enjoyable and amongst all other things. The boost in confidence also eliminates social anxiety.

*Serotonin* - Stabilizes mood - Doesn't always make socializing enjoyable

*Opiates* - Bind to opiod receptors releasing dopamine and slowing CNS almost like benzos - This solution completely removes my anxiety and makes me normal.

So choose your poison - Social anxiety can be from numerous problems. I agree with most that Dopamine plays a huge role. I believe that the root cause of social anxiety is all dopamine. I think the anxiety one suffers from social anxiety is due to not partaking in socializing and since not doing so having bad experiences. If pleasure was introduced when talking to a person, one would learn social skills more and not suffer anxiety.

Ultimately - I think we all have different chemical build ups - I also think that people with SA have very twisted views of things and how people react. I think learning to cope and learning how other people react to situations will make you better over time.


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## brainfogboy

Dextroamphetamine: problem solved.



8 years of PTSD hell, induced by my my time in the military, and all the positive-thinking, exercise, and diet bull**** I could handle, can't hold a handle to this drug. It's chemical, period. To anyone who disagrees with me, go do a rail of coke and try to 'have bad thoughts' and talk yourself down from it: you can't. Neurotransmitters are the foundation of your thoughts. 

Take it daily. You're doing more harm to yourself by not getting your anxiety under control than a drug that 'desensitizes' dopamine receptors ever will. Go read up on long term elevated cortisol (stress) exposure and then ask yourself if little old amphetamine holds a candle to chronic illness.


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## brainfogboy

I can't edit?


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## Captainmycaptain

GotAnxiety said:


> Sleep deprivation is the best natural way too upregulate receptors the state between dreaming and awake is the most creative state known too men "dreamwalking".
> 
> Right now im in a Scenario where i had too stay awake for over 24 and i feel pretty good actually not depressed no anxiety i actually feel like fighting someone lol this can help explain why the dawning effect of alcohol produces such euphoria state the rebound from the depressant + sleep deprivation also alot of antidepressant's cause sleep deprivation maybe this is the way they work by making you delusional you forget about your problem's but you don't need a antidepressant too cause sleep deprivation.
> 
> Sleep deprivation is a natural way too increase BDNF.


I feel very tired after not sleeping for 24 hours and am unable to focus on anything difficult. How is it possible that you do not feel tired after being awake for 24 hours?


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## GotAnxiety

DRUGSAREnotGOOD said:


> I feel very tired after not sleeping for 24 hours and am unable to focus on anything difficult. How is it possible that you do not feel tired after being awake for 24 hours?


This post is so old. I think I was refering to the rebound effect alcohol can produce or I drank a lot of coffee or both. The brain usually trys to maintain homeostasis so if your pushed passed your breaking point and try and fight sleep your excitatory may go up. But so may the calming neurotranmitters as well. Feel good endorphins go up as well same with starving and grehlin levels up endorphins / hormones anything that induces stress runners high anything that causes pain will do the opposite the body trys to balences it self out you gotta use it to your advantage.


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## Yusef

Noca said:


> 而 according to 最 polls on 這 場 done in the past, almost everyone with SA is an introvert, therefore 勿 getting anywhere 近 as much exposure to social situations as extroverts, thus causing anxiety by your 論.


Extrovert here. Don't forget that many don't really know what introvert/extrovert really means. A lot of people think being shy means introvert which obviously if they are on this site they would be just that. Extrovert means you gain energy from being around people, you can still be anxious enough to not do so.


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## forexworld12

reef88 said:


> SSRI's also help to cure social anxiety, I used Zoloft for 6 months and it basically cured me. SSRI's don't work with Dopamine, they work with Serotonin.


What about me taking SSRI- escitalopram about 1.5 years ago for about 4 months and that totally Killed my libido/ desire for intimacy and No genetical sensation. I read on my thread that ssri does reduce dopamine which kills your libido ?


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## serendi

Sorry for bumping, but just to clarify, is this case only with internet?

Will my dopamine receptors decrease if I read too much (on my kindle if that makes any difference)? It is enjoyable, and I don't see much difference between the two.


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## cnhinton

*You're only going to sensitize dopamine receptors in the substantia ******

Social anxiety is triggered by multiple things, like reduced neurotransmitter levels in various areas of the brain, like the cingulate cortex and the amygdala. Abstaining from pleasure will increase dopamine sensitivity in the substantia *****, which is an area of the brain involved in addiction, reward, and movement. Shunning pleasure will only leave you with heightened motor activity and psychomotor agitation. It won't affect areas responsible for social anxiety. The substantia ***** doesn't deal with social anxiety.


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## millenniumman75

The "cure" is to work through (mental thinking skills) to get through a situation.

Cognitive behavioral therapy.


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## kevin199

*Suffering bad side effects of neurontin, how can I taper off ASAP?*

I've been on neurontin 3 400 mg capsues for several months now for anxiety. I have had so many side effects that have crept up gradually. It started with shallow breathing, then bad indigestion, ibs, heatburn. Now over the past two weeks I've experienced a bad rash in my right hand. It is swollen and itchy. Also some blurred vision. I don't have anything less than the 400 mg capsules but I really need to find a way to taper ASAP. I know I should taper slowly rather than stop altogether. I have some low dose xanax pills that will help with anxiety they act similair to neurontin without the side effects. Any suggestions on a taper plan given the frequency I take the neurontin and knowing which pills I have until I can see my doctor?


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## DeafBoy36

Inshallah said:


> So the cure is actually exposure, who would have thought? Most of us not stuck in the 'born with the wrong chemical makeup' discourse knew this already


I disagree. I have severe social anxiety yet I don't let that prevent me from going out and meeting people. I also have severe depression. I still go out. I'm a teacher, after all.

So I have tons of exposure. Today, I have two social events. Even through I don't avoid social situations, I still get SEVERE social anxiety and SEVERE depression. So exposure is NOT the cure. I teach to 200 students DAILY.

It's the brain chemistry.


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## Randomguy555

> I dont think its something as simple as porn, i think its overstimulation in general to a point where normal social situations dont give us that rush that where supposed to get, and therefore we never wire our brains to seek out these social experiances.


The whole thread was interesting to read, but I really liked this quote. I was diagnosed with ADD when I was 10 and have always had difficulty focusing during conversations and other social activities. I guess some of the other posters in this thread weren't able to relate, but I thought the OP's theories were very applicable for someone with ADHD.


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## Gotherl

Raidiant said:


> I'm not sure about abstinence can somebody explain to my how dopamine receptors would increase from not dealing with electronics, seems pretty mythical at the moment.
> .


It's really common sense. For example. Everytime you take cocaine it becomes less of a high the next time you take it., . Each time you do something stimulating you decrease the dopamine sensitivity to pickup the receptor.. Even things as simple as listening to music can do that so you'll become bored of listening to the same song or same genre over again. Btw! He is not the first person to point this out. I've read this on several places but he does make a lot of good points on the topic. Unfortunately, with every topic that has anything to do with abstinence seems to always come with a flock of pessimistic atheists.. They've never had 1st hand experience, so they'd always stay ignorant and make idiotic comments. If I was OP I wouldn't even bother trying to convince the naysayers.


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## 10PercentExtra

reef88 said:


> Benzodiazepines have nothing to do with Dopamine neurotransmitters ...


that is incorrect..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2871668/

fact is, social anxiety is complex and involves many neurotransmitters. Dopamine definitely plays a huge role in socializing.


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## jim_morrison

10PercentExtra said:


> fact is, social anxiety is complex and involves many neurotransmitters. Dopamine definitely plays a huge role in socializing.


Yes, dopamine plays a big role in social drive and reward.


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## gregk

*Same as me*

Hey, I have a theory, I think that starting watching porn early and a lot as well as drinking early and a lot creates dopamine insensitivity. You can make your brain more sensitive by fasting and exercising, but the problem is that if you yo yo around it makes it worse. It is the same as for a drug addict once you have taught your brain how to reduce dopamine receptors it can do it in a snap. My idea is that a 40 day fast from unatural stimuli (porn, pop, alchol,TV etc) will get your dopamine receptors back to normal, curing that time you should get some good habits going (sounds like you already have quite a few), than you can reintroduce some of those stimuli (i would cut out totally anything that you behave addictivly toward) but you need to have them under strict control, like not more that two drinks, a cigar with the buddies etc. After two years you should start to be a bit safer from replapse (according to my research). I am going to do the 40 days starting as a new years resolution in 2017, if anyone else wants to experiment on themselves with me.


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