# Kratom, great for my anxiety.



## flapjacker (Nov 30, 2008)

I have fallen in love w/ Kratom. : ) I think it is worth recommending. Opiate users beware though, use in moderation to avoid addiction.

Ive been buying ground Kratom leaf, particularly the Bali and Indo strains which are known to be sedating. I have to say the anti-anxiety effects produced by kratom parallel the effects of xanax. I can take a few grams of kratom and I do not even need Xanax where I may have in other cases.

There is a wonderful site, *http://thekratomforum.com/*, that deals w/ the discussion of kratom use as well as links to reputable vendors.

Anyone else have experience w/ kratom?


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## ivankaramazov (Aug 22, 2009)

flapjacker said:


> I have fallen in love w/ Kratom. : ) I think it is worth recommending. Opiate users beware though, use in moderation to avoid addiction.
> 
> Ive been buying ground Kratom leaf, particularly the Bali and Indo strains which are known to be sedating. I have to say the anti-anxiety effects produced by kratom parallel the effects of xanax. I can take a few grams of kratom and I do not even need Xanax where I may have in other cases.
> 
> ...


I enjoy it, but I don't like the hangover the next day. I don't get headaches but I always feel glued to my couch.


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## nork123 (Oct 22, 2009)

never tried it, but have heard that there is rapid tolerance. It is something i am very interested in trying though, how long does the high and anxiety relief last? Also can the tolerance be combated by taking magnesium or something like with other kinds of opiates? And also how safe is it for your health? Because i know opiates can be quite hard on the body when they are used regularly

Sorry for all the questions


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

nork123 said:


> never tried it, but have heard that there is rapid tolerance. It is something i am very interested in trying though, how long does the high and anxiety relief last? Also can the tolerance be combated by taking magnesium or something like with other kinds of opiates? And also how safe is it for your health? Because i know opiates can be quite hard on the body when they are used regularly
> 
> Sorry for all the questions


NMDA antagonism caused by magnesium is probably to weak to prevent tolerance to any opiate.


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## nork123 (Oct 22, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> NMDA antagonism caused by magnesium is probably to weak to prevent tolerance to any opiate.


Is there anything that would be effective? I've also read dxm can help but this probably isn't the safest option


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

nork123 said:


> Is there anything that would be effective? I've also read dxm can help but this probably isn't the safest option


DXM, ketamine, memantine etc..

DXM isnt that bad when used in doses around the 60mg.


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## CallMeSomniferumPapi (Sep 7, 2010)

basically opiates man...i wanna try it already..but hey do any of you guys know if it has cross-tolerance with any other opiates? im asking because i would love to switch up drugs so i dont get tolerance built up as much get me?like 3 days kratom, 3 days oxy etc.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

CallMeSomniferumPapi said:


> basically opiates man...i wanna try it already..but hey do any of you guys know if it has cross-tolerance with any other opiates? im asking because i would love to switch up drugs so i dont get tolerance built up as much get me?like 3 days kratom, 3 days oxy etc.


That wont work.


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## ThePolyfather (Sep 7, 2010)

Okay, a few quick comments (and warnings) from a pre-pharmacy student and someone who's familiar with these substances...

Krat. and opiates do have some cross-tolerance, but not entirely. As someone who has tried both rather heavily, I can say that there is definitely some difference in the feeling you get from each. The main alkaloid in krat., if I recall correctly, is very specific to only one opiate receptor, which happens to be the one that is responsible for the anti-depressant effect of opiates (*not* the euphoria you get from opiates, though). So, if you alternate between that and oxy, you'll likely end up dependent on the anti-depressant effect, which will come back and bite you in the arse when you run out.
In short: Your happiness will probably become addicted to these two, yes. If you run out, you'll probably crash.

As far as potentiators go (crayzyMed mentioned DXM and ketamine), I don't know about ketamine, but I've heard DXM can be used to "boost" the effects of certain psychoactives, like this one (these are called potentiators, substances that make the effects of other substances feel stronger; ex: taking opiates then drinking will make you feel more sedated). Word of caution though: *DXM can cause brain damage.* If you're going to use it in higher than the doses recommended by the label on the bottle, follow it with a single shot of alcohol. I'm not sure of the pharmacology on this, but I've heard time and time again that alcohol "protects" the brain from DXM.

As for health issues... I don't remember it off the top of my head and don't have the time to look it up right now, but raw leaf has a chemical in it used as heart medication of some sort. If you'd like me to, I will later. Both of those substances mentioned last roughly 4 hours.

As for closing comments that you may or may not read... Anything that induces euphoria isn't really an answer to any kind of depression/anxiety problem. Yeah, it makes your symptoms go away, but it won't fix the underlying problem. If anything, you'll find yourself even less able to function without whatever you've become dependent on, which turns into a nasty (not to mention expensive) problem. If you have to use things like that, try to use them very sparingly.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DXM wont cause any brain damage in doses used to potentiate other drugs, i also highly doubt it causes any significant braindamage in the recreational doses (eg olney's lessions) but i havent looked at all the literature.

5HT2A agonism protects against nmda antagonist induced neurotoxiticy, i didnt know about ethanol, but those things arent neceserry anyway in therapeutic doses of memantine or DXM.


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## ThePolyfather (Sep 7, 2010)

Oh, no, in smaller potentiating doses I doubt it will (Sorry, that post was made at 7am for my time :/). I have heard of recreational doses causing brain damage (or at least, seemingly permanent cognitive impairment). As far as Olney's legions go, I don't think that DXM has been shown to do that if given orally, but whether that was in humans or rats I can't remember. As far as I know though, pretty much every dissociative type drug carries *some* risk of long term unpleasantness in larger doses.

But, to get back to the subject, yes those herbs can be very effective, but I doubt drugs - prescription or otherwise - are really going to be a permanent fix for anything people come to this board for. I guess all I'm saying is, from someone who has been there with that particular herb, just be careful and you should be fine.


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## MaddyRose (Dec 25, 2009)

Anybody have any good recipes for masking the taste of kratom powder? I tried it in a smoothie the other day and it was alright, but not the tastiest thing ever :/


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

Intersting. I found kratom at a head shop and was interested in trying it. I didn't purchase it because I didn't have enough money. I got salvia instead. Big mistake. I know salvia is not a recreational drug, but I tried it anyways, and it made me feel like a douchebag (yes, that was the best word to summarize the experience... douchebag). Maybe I just don't like facing my innermost thoughts.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

It sounds like a radioactive element. :afr


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## Ambivert (Jan 16, 2010)

Kratom was pretty great. I was sedated for awhile and best of all it's a legal herb available at your local friendly bong store.

I heard about Salvia, I saw it at the same store I buy Kratom. It's what Mexican shamans used to get spirit visions of sorts.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

^Is that legal? :con


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## HipHopHead (Jun 17, 2010)

I would advise against salvia... ive heard it is one of the most intense psychadelics out there at the moment, one of my friends actually told me it changes the way you look at the world he descibed to me his trip too... does not sound enjoyable at all... and setting/mood can play a big part with these kind of drugs, how would you like to get anxiety before trying a drug you have no idea what your ready for and you have a horrible trip you are stuck in with no exit, because your basically in another reality when your tripping of salvia


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## Dreamscape (Sep 18, 2010)

This thread lead me to read about Kratom for a few hours (I had never heard of it before), and I decided to buy some. Going to try some Bali.


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## UndercoverAlien (Dec 29, 2009)

I like this stuff too. I mixed about 9 grams of Kratom Powder in vanilla yogurt and didn't mind the taste at all. I felt a decent opiate like high for about 3 hours, although it wasn't that strong. I might go for the extract next time. This would be my first choice for legal alternatives for anxiety.


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## NameIsNotImportant (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm interested in this. Anyone got any strenght suggestions? I don't want the hangover, but I don't want it too weak either lol


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## Christine Patschull (Sep 21, 2010)

*Do you know the latin name of Kratom?*

A professor I know has become psychotic, his wife loaded hers on him. Can you translate the name of the nutrition 'kratom' in latin? cheers, tine


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## bikhuk (Oct 5, 2010)

Hi, the latin name of the Kratom tree is Mitragyna speciosa. I use it frequently and I'm also involved in a company that exports this herb worldwide (its called Bikhuk.com) we have a large number of customers in the EU and USA who use it frequently to deal with anxiety and as an antidepressant. when used wisely and in moderate dosage kratom can change your mood effectively and in a safe way. But before trying this I would recommend you also take a look at the possible downsides, since it does build up tolerance and some do have occasional withdrawal symptoms. Feel free to contact me if you need more information.


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## robotaffliction (Jul 24, 2009)

kratom is pretty good, but yep it's an opioid, i.e., has some of the effects of opiates especially on the mu opioid receptor - which would help anxiety. i think it has some yohimbine-like (adrenergic) effects too which contribute to possible anti-depressant effects, but watch out for blood pressure elevation. i'm not sure I could manage to use it therapeutically on a regular basis but in my experience it doesn't seem to have terrible withdrawal/discontinuation effects associated with the opiates and other opioid-acting drugs


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## aalina (Oct 5, 2011)

_Kratom_ is not a bad thing. It is medicinal leaf that is used for the treatment for depression and _anxiety_. It has also several useful results.


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## molefacedmofo (Jan 16, 2012)

I used to take kratom before work when I was desperate to cope with debilitating social phobia symptoms - violently puking before work repeatedly, teeth chattering etc. 

It made me able to go into the job. The only problem was that it made me look like a junkie. I don't consider it to be a "recreational" substance, but it gives you pinned pupils and a pasty complexion. 

I took it daily for more than half a year with only minor withdrawal. But don't take my word for it - I tend to have a high threshold for misery. Other people find that the withdrawal from daily use really sucks.

It's a good alternative to prescription painkillers. I exercise constantly and I get a small order of kratom whenever I have a running injury.


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## Zerix (Jan 21, 2012)

Just so you guys know, Kratom is 100% safe, and VERY effective. It is slightly like an opiate, since it acts on the same receptors, BUT, it's also an antioxidant and has plenty of benefits. I think Kratom is the best thing to happen to me. It really does help with anxiety, brings you UP if you're down, and very great for general stress relief or sleeping issues (high dose though).

For one, never buy it in a head shop, not because it might not be good, but because they RIP you off, I bought it my first time in one, paid $30 dollars for 5g  Find a reliable source online for the powder or capsules, the leafs cheaper but more time consuming to prepare unless you're ready to chew em, taste ain't the best (or PM me and I'll point you in the right direction). And for starters, try out 4g at first. It is cross-tolerant with opiates though, so maybe a little more if you take those O's often or now and then.. you can always go up in dose, but never back down, don't forget.

I'd highly recommend people try this herb, it IS almost too good to be true, except it's not. I did an awful lot of research on it, and I buy it constantly, if any questions I can help


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## Zerix (Jan 21, 2012)

Hm I can't edit my posts??

Just wanted to add that if you do abuse it, yes it has addiction potential, and withdrawals could occur (though much more forgiving than any other drug or substance). If you take it everyday, at least don't take it more than once, better yet, every OTHER day would be optimum, and would not cause addiction.


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## nork123 (Oct 22, 2009)

If your body can tolerate it then it is great for anxiety and is really nice and euphoric in a gentle way. I had to stop taking it though because it started making me really nauseous and sick, and made me itch like crazy

I have heard that 3 days between dosage is the best way to avoid tolerance and addiction


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## Zerix (Jan 21, 2012)

nork123 said:


> If your body can tolerate it then it is great for anxiety and is really nice and euphoric in a gentle way. I had to stop taking it though because it started making me really nauseous and sick, and made me itch like crazy
> 
> I have heard that 3 days between dosage is the best way to avoid tolerance and addiction


Interesting, what dose did you take? I bet you COULD still tolerate it, if you felt nausea and itching, you actually just took too much 

I accidentally did a few times, I even threw up once cause I decided to take a huge dose on a full stomach and the nausea caused that yea.. but itchiness isn't bad, that's how u know it's working STRONGLY, just take a benadryl along with it if it's too much


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## nork123 (Oct 22, 2009)

Zerix said:


> Interesting, what dose did you take? I bet you COULD still tolerate it, if you felt nausea and itching, you actually just took too much
> 
> I accidentally did a few times, I even threw up once cause I decided to take a huge dose on a full stomach and the nausea caused that yea.. but itchiness isn't bad, that's how u know it's working STRONGLY, just take a benadryl along with it if it's too much


I was taking quite big doses, up to about 25-30 grams so yeah I guess that could be why, I may give it another try one of these days because it was really good and just stick to around 10 grams or so. I've heard benadryl helps the itchiness so ill try that as well, and maybe some ginger or something to help with any nausea that might crop up


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## becca kaye (Mar 11, 2013)

*can you also use kratom for withdraw symptoms from opiates for the first few days*




Zerix said:


> Hm I can't edit my posts??
> 
> Just wanted to add that if you do abuse it, yes it has addiction potential, and withdrawals could occur (though much more forgiving than any other drug or substance). If you take it everyday, at least don't take it more than once, better yet, every OTHER day would be optimum, and would not cause addiction.


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## becca kaye (Mar 11, 2013)

becca kaye said:


>


 can you also use this kratom for the first few days if withdraw from opiates such as vicodin and heroin i've heard you can but only for the first three or four days is this true or false some people say valium and tramadol work also.


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## Zerix (Jan 21, 2012)

becca kaye said:


> can you also use this kratom for the first few days if withdraw from opiates such as vicodin and heroin i've heard you can but only for the first three or four days is this true or false some people say valium and tramadol work also.


tramadol and valium are just more drugs to get withdrawals from, kick em

and you can use it first few days and few more if you'd like, believe me you'll feel the difference and much much better


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

Zerix said:


> Hm I can't edit my posts??
> 
> Just wanted to add that if you do abuse it, yes it has addiction potential, and withdrawals could occur (though much more forgiving than any other drug or substance). If you take it everyday, at least don't take it more than once, better yet, every OTHER day would be optimum, and would not cause addiction.


wait just one moment, greg! you posted above that kratom was 100% safe and now you're posting this?!

these two posts aren't in alignment.


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

basuraeuropea said:


> wait just one moment, greg! you posted above that kratom was 100% safe and now you're posting this?!
> 
> these two posts aren't in alignment.


I think it goes without saying that no drug is 100% safe.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

changeme77 said:


> I think it goes without saying that no drug is 100% safe.


i think i was just trying to ruffle zerix's feathers. duh.

but yes, no drug is 100% safe.


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

basuraeuropea said:


> i think i was just trying to ruffle zerix's feathers. duh.


and obv i was to know you were trying to do that since it was so obvious. duh.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

changeme77 said:


> and obv i was to know you were trying to do that since it was so obvious. duh.


you stated what i had stated, or that is to say that you posted an unnecessary reiteration of my post. food for thought, eh, mate?


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

basuraeuropea said:


> you stated what i had stated, or that is to say that you posted an unnecessary reiteration of my post. food for thought, eh, mate?


I think it's safe to say most dialogue is a reiteration of something we've seen/read. I can't remember the last time I got creative in bed.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

changeme77 said:


> I think it's safe to say most dialogue is a reiteration of something we've seen/read. I can't remember the last time I got creative in bed.


while the former statement may be true, it is rather redundant to use this rationale in a sequential manner whilst posting within a thread, wouldn't you agree?

as for bed, spice it up a bit.


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

basuraeuropea said:


> while the former statement may be true, it is rather redundant to use this rationale in a sequential manner whilst posting within a thread, wouldn't you agree?


i think it would depend on the context it was used in. it was said in a sarcastic tone so i don't think your rationalization applies.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

i think it goes without question that no rationalisation is 100% accurate. 

anyhow, you work on spicing things up in bed whilst i go about my day.


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## Zerix (Jan 21, 2012)

well here's a promise, use it once a week on a day off to relax and it CAN stay 100% safe 

lol but yeah I think I made my point earlier... and what you guys above said... never forget the golden rule: Everything in MODERATION


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## random man (Feb 16, 2013)

what strain is good for energy , to wake up in the morning?
and whats good to chill out? i had some nice kratom with wine last year, good dark buzz


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## armednblonde (Mar 13, 2013)

How many mg is everyone taking? I just ordered some a few days ago from mystymountainherbals.com I got the Bali kind. It says just a teaspoon but I'm curious if anyone else is using less or more. 

I also bought some water soluble Kava which I am pretty excited about.


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## sayaman05 (Jan 30, 2009)

can you get Kratom in stores or just online. i want to try some just to take some of the anxiety away while at work. and which online sites are good to order from?


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## Dark Shines (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm a fairly experienced Kratom user. I've tried a variety of different strains, red, white and green vein and find the *red vein* varieties to be best for relieving anxiety. My favorite strain is Borneo Red Vein, followed by Malaysian Green Vein.

I can't say that I've ever found Kratom "stimulating", just sedating to different degrees and in different ways, I find green vein varieties to be the longest lasting and most euphoric, white vein varieties I don't really like very much.

If you're thinking of trying Kratom to relieve anxiety, follow these guidelines :-


Find yourself a good, dedicated online vendor.
Don't buy from _legal highz_ websites or offline in _head shops_.
Don't buy extracts(*e.g.* 15x, 50x). They are expensive, will increase tolerance and their effects aren't very good anyway.
Don't buy enhanced powders. They will increase tolerance and their effects are no better than plain powdered leaf, the only benefit is you need to take less to achieve the same effect.
Dosage will vary, but I have found that _less is more_ with Kratom. If you take too much, then rather than feeling like you're 'glowing inside', relaxed and happy. You will feel drunk, dizzy and sick.

For myself, I usually take between 5 and 7 grams across two doses. I'll take one teaspoon, set my alarm for 40 minutes time and then take another teaspoon. If I take it all at once, then I feel dizzy and sick, so there's a fine balance to attain with correct dosage.

The best way to take it I've found, is _toss n wash_, just put a teaspoon of the powder in your mouth and wash it down as quick as you can with orange juice or similar. Acidic drinks(*e.g.* fresh citrus fruit juice) are widely acknowledged to assist the process of activating the alkaloids in Kratom. It doesn't taste very nice, but then you're taking it for its flavor.

For anybody interested in the UK, there are two vendors I have bought from, with *kratomsupply.net* being my preferred vendor at the moment. All their products are shipped via recorded delivery in fully labelled, vacuum sealed, foil-lined pouches :-

- http://www.kratomsupply.net
- http://naturalchemistry.co.uk


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## ssalamone (Sep 21, 2010)

I am a big fan of Phenibut and recognize the tolerance issues with it. Would Kratom be something I can take on my off days of Phenibut?


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## Dark Shines (Feb 11, 2013)

ssalamone said:


> I am a big fan of Phenibut and recognize the tolerance issues with it. Would Kratom be something I can take on my off days of Phenibut?


 Phenibut is a GABAb agonist with some small suspected GABAa affinity, whilst the active alkaloids in Kratom(Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine) are opioid agonists, so there is no chance of cross tolerance developing.

Although tolerance is every bit as much an issue with Kratom as it is Phenibut if not more so and there is addiction potential if it's abused.

I use Phenibut as well as Kratom for the very reason that you're looking to, i.e. to keep dependency from developing. To do this, I tend to stick to the rule of only taking as much I need and only dosing twice a week.

I find compared to Phenibut that Kratom is longer lasting and enhances my mood moreso and I would say that I prefer the effects of opioid agonists to GABA agonists(pharmaceuticals included) generally for this reason.

Be aware though that if you take opiates for any reason(such as for pain), then there is obviously the potential for cross tolerance with Kratom to develop if that's an issue.


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## ssalamone (Sep 21, 2010)

Dark Shines said:


> Phenibut is a GABAb agonist with some small suspected GABAa affinity, whilst the active alkaloids in Kratom(Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine) are opioid agonists, so there is no chance of cross tolerance developing.
> 
> Although tolerance is every bit as much an issue with Kratom as it is Phenibut if not more so and there is addiction potential if it's abused.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that insight! What is the difference in how you feel taking Kratom vs Phenibut? I'm not that familiar with any opioid type drugs.


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## Dark Shines (Feb 11, 2013)

ssalamone said:


> Thanks for that insight! What is the difference in how you feel taking Kratom vs Phenibut? I'm not that familiar with any opioid type drugs.


 Np.  Everybody obviously reacts differently to different types of drugs, but here's my account of Phenibut, Red Vein Borneo Kratom and how it compares to Green Vein Malaysian Kratom :-

Onset time is very similar for both, I tend to feel threshold effects at between 30-45 minutes after dosing on an empty stomach, with effects reaching plateau at between 60-90 minutes.

*Phenibut:* During the come up, I gradually become relaxed, but in a very specific way, my emotional gamut(range) becomes narrower and my feelings become more muted, this plateaus to a very clean anxiolytic state, it's not dissimilar to what I feel when taking Valium, although with Valium, I tend to find that my emotional range more or less completely flatlines and I don't feel anything at all until it wears off. As the relaxation fades away, I find myself feeling more stimulated, my mood lifts in a way that I can only describe as feeling 'excited' or 'anticipatory'. It feels loosely similar to a social alcohol high, but without the negative side effects, having said that, the first time I took Phenibut I also experienced quite a bit of dizziness during this stage(on just a 1000mg dose), but it hasn't happened since. I find the more I take Phenibut, the less intense this second stimulating period becomes.

*Kratom(Borneo Red Vein):* During the come up, I gradually become relaxed, but in a very broad way. An "opiate high" can be best described as a sensation of physical and emotional warmth, or euphoria, like the sun is shining in your heart, or you're "glowing" inside and this is the way Kratom makes me feel, it makes me relaxed, but warm and content also. Red vein strains contain higher amounts of 7-hydroxymitragynine than Green or White and this alkaloid posesses strong analgesic qualities, this makes me feel physically comfortable and slightly warm all over, i.e. the relaxation is physical as well as psychological and emotional.

*Kratom(Malaysian Green Vein):* During the come up, the same thing happens as with the Borneo Red, but in a more specific way. I would say the effects aren't as broad, the physical relaxation(analgesia) isn't as pronounced and the sedation isn't as pronounced, but the feeling of euphoria and emotional warmth is stronger. When I use Green Malay, it makes me feel like I'm standing before the world with a warm smile, because everything in it is the way it should be. The effects are also longer lasting.

The only negative side-effect I would say I experience with Kratom is insomnia, but only if I take it within 6 hours of going to bed. It isn't a common side-effect however, the most common side effect is nausea, but this only really occurs at high doses, if you feel sick, then it's because you're taken too much.


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## michael2 (Jul 15, 2011)

How long have you been taking kratom? While I will admit I have researched it more than a few times, I've resolved to _not_ taking any type of drug or supplement for the time being. I'm more so curious about long-term effects/tolerance. For the sake of curiosity, could you take it a few times a week and not notice adversities? Is is strong enough that others would notice you were "high"? How does it affect the way you act around people; does it make you more talkative? Again, just for curiosity... I've never been high before and don't plan to now although I find researching drugs in-depth to be interesting.


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## Dark Shines (Feb 11, 2013)

michael2 said:


> How long have you been taking kratom? While I will admit I have researched it more than a few times, I've resolved to _not_ taking any type of drug or supplement for the time being. I'm more so curious about long-term effects/tolerance. For the sake of curiosity, could you take it a few times a week and not notice adversities? Is is strong enough that others would notice you were "high"? How does it affect the way you act around people; does it make you more talkative? Again, just for curiosity... I've never been high before and don't plan to now although I find researching drugs in-depth to be interesting.


 I'd say I've been taking Kratom for over a year now. Tolerance and physical dependency are a genuine concern when taking anything that enhances mood and you're right to be concerned.

When I was too young to know better, I was taken into hospital and given doses of certain anti-psychotics that would today be considered entirely unacceptable for somebody of my age at the time and when they took me off of one drug to put me on another one, they didn't taper me, they simply stopped the medication, put me a small room under 24 hour observation and let me get on with it, so I'm all too well aware of how unpleasant physical withdrawal is, it's not something that I ever want to have to experience again and it's certainly not something that I would willingly inflict upon myself.

I make a concerted effort to try and understand the pharmacology of things before I take them for this reason. Limiting my dose of Kratom to no more than twice weekly has prevented any kind of tolerance build up. When I run out, I can find myself going without for weeks at a time without experiencing withdrawal. Long term daily use and cessation would inevitably result in fairly severe withdrawal symptoms, I would recommend taking Kratom no more frequently than three times a week and I would recommend not at any point increasing dosage. The fact is, if you find yourself needing to increase dosage, then it's because your body is becoming tolerant and if that's happening, dependency is building, so it's best to step back the frequency if this becomes the case.

Also, although I used the term "opiate high" in my post to describe its effect, I tend not to frame anything I take in the context of it making me "high", as that tends to suggest there is a recreational aspect to me doing it and that has never been the case. Besides that, a state of being "high" could be defined as having ones mood modified by a substance they have consumed or otherwise metabolized into their biochemistry, so anybody who has drank alcohol, used an anti-depressant, taken a sleeping pill, a natural legal remedy, a strong pain killer, or otherwise has been "high".

With regards to how it makes you behave around others, it's the same as any substance that alters brain chemistry(including alcohol), it depends on how much you take. At the dose I take, others do not notice any "weird" symptoms you would typically associate with being "high" in a stereotypical _hollywood movie_ sense, you know where you might see somebody with a needle hanging out of their arm at some point or another,:lol but I do become more talkative, purely by virtue of the fact that I am less nervous.

All in all, Kratom has little efficacy as a recreational substance(it would've been banned a long time ago if it did) because it is a natural emetic, you're essentially eating ground up plant matter, it is full of cellulose which our digestive systems cannot process and thus, if you attempt to eat too much of it, you will be sick.

I do know there have been moves in certain U.S. states to ban Kratom; or more specifically, it's active alkaloids(mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine). At least one of these has been overturned as far as I know, thanks largely I believe(don't quote me though) to the testimony of somebody with severe social anxiety. You've probably been here already, but this is a good place to keep up with developments concerning Kratom :-

- http://www.kratomassociation.org


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## plastics (Apr 11, 2010)

It sounds like any other addictive drug to me. I personally wouldn't do it, because it sounds like it's way too easy to get hooked on doing it everyday.


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## Dark Shines (Feb 11, 2013)

plastics said:


> It sounds like any other addictive drug to me. I personally wouldn't do it, because it sounds like it's way too easy to get hooked on doing it everyday.


 *DISCLAIMER:* All drugs that affect brain chemistry are addictive, if not physically, then at least psychologically. It doesn't matter whether they're natural herbal remedies(*e.g.* Kava Kava, Kratom) or pharmaceutical chemicals(*e.g.* anti-depressants, benzodiazepines).

But whether this is a problem depends entirely on the individual taking it. I for example won't take anti-depressants, aside from having had bad experiences with the few that I have taken, they usually have to be taken frequently and long term in order to be of therapeutic benefit, which inevitably results in dependency.

Because fast acting anxiolytics do not require regular, long term commitment to be effective, you can keep tolerance under control and provided you haven't got an addictive personality and are able to control your usage, then there's no chance of addiction occurring.

I wouldn't advise anybody who thinks they may have a problem controlling their usage of these substances to start using them, or if they do, to stop immediately if they notice themselves starting to lose control. As I said in an earlier post, physical withdrawal is an extremely unpleasant thing to have to go through.


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## bazinga (Jun 9, 2010)

Hello again. This is flapjacker (new account)

Kratom is a wonderful plant. It can be stimulating or sedating. It can be energizing and relaxing. It has helped me for anxiety more than any other med I have ever taken. It also puts a stop to my hyperhidrosis problem.

There are 4 main strains of kratom:

Thai - stimulating
Malaysian - sedating/stimulating
Bali - sedating
Indonesian - sedating

Bali used to be the king of kratom for sedation. It is great for anxiety relief. However, bali is known to produce nausea, so if you prefer sedation but without nausea go for an indonesian strand or misty malaysian. Maeng Da is the king of the stimulating strains. Another potent and very good stimulating strain is Red Vein Thai. There are lots of great strains. I prefer the sedating strains with my favorites being misty malaysian and red vein indonesian. One of the best suppliers in the USA and elsewhere is http://mistymountainherbals.com. Great team that I do business solely with. There are other good vendors. You can find them at http://thekratomforum.com

However, be careful with kratom. I got to where I was taking up to 20-30 grams each dose which was 3-4x a day. I started taking kratom about 5 years ago. I ended up getting a 30mm kidney stone after a few years of having kidney infections. I wasn't sure if it was the kratom or if it was from drinking 4-5 diet cokes a day and no water. Kratom is suspected to be very high in oxylates which can be a factor in producing calcium oxylate kidney stones. However, it is also believed that the risk isn't any higher than say having green vegetables and coffee for lunch every day. Phosphoric acid in cokes is suspected to bind calcium which can lead to kidney stones. So I really don't know what caused the stone.

I had surgery to remove the stone. I kept taking kratom as usual and I went back to my urologist after 6 months for a checkup and I was stone free. I have cut out drinking dark, carbonated beverages and I eat fairly healthy now so maybe I'll stay stone free.

Don't take as much as I did. I would take 5-8 teaspoons in one sitting. Nowadays I take 1-2 teaspoons per sitting. There is a saying: 'Less is more'

Good luck on your kratom adventures. It's a wonderful plant.

Just remember to keep it in moderation. Less is more. There is a ceiling effect with kratom anyway so once you reach a certain point, taking more isn't going to produce any greater effect. So it's best just to keep your dosage low (1-3 teaspoons).


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## bazinga (Jun 9, 2010)

Dark Shines said:


> The best way to take it I've found, is _toss n wash_, just put a teaspoon of the powder in your mouth and wash it down as quick as you can with orange juice or similar. Acidic drinks(*e.g.* fresh citrus fruit juice) are widely acknowledged to assist the process of activating the alkaloids in Kratom. It doesn't taste very nice, but then you're taking it for its flavor.
> 
> For anybody interested in the UK, there are two vendors I have bought from, with *kratomsupply.net* being my preferred vendor at the moment. All their products are shipped via recorded delivery in fully labelled, vacuum sealed, foil-lined pouches :-
> 
> ...


Actually there is a better way to take kratom. It's my personal variation on the toss n wash. Put a sip of water in your mouth, preferrably tap water. Tilt your head upwards and place a teaspoon of kratom on top of the water in your mouth. Then just wash it down with another swig of water. If you do it correctly the kratom never hits your tongue and you don't taste it at all. Takes practice but once you figure it out you never have to worry about the taste of kratom again.

Also a very good vendor in the UK is divine shaman. http://www.divineshaman.com/


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## bazinga (Jun 9, 2010)

If you are interested in kratom, you better get it now while you still can. Indonesia has banned exports of kratom which is where 95% of the worlds supply comes from.

Good luck.


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## punkrabbit (Mar 11, 2013)

Kratom is illegal here in oz  never tried


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## hillary (Mar 13, 2013)

Dark Shines said:


> *DISCLAIMER:* All drugs that affect brain chemistry are addictive, if not physically, then at least psychologically. It doesn't matter whether they're natural herbal remedies(*e.g.* Kava Kava, Kratom) or pharmaceutical chemicals(*e.g.* anti-depressants, benzodiazepines).
> 
> But whether this is a problem depends entirely on the individual taking it. I for example won't take anti-depressants, aside from having had bad experiences with the few that I have taken, they usually have to be taken frequently and long term in order to be of therapeutic benefit, which inevitably results in dependency.
> 
> ...


Hey Dark Shines,

Thanks for all of the information. I stopped taking anti-depressents (15mg lexapro) after four years a couple of months ago and my SA has returned, I wouldn't say fully, but more specifically in high-pressure situations, like job interviews for example. I am experimenting with Xanax and didn't feel much on 2.5mg. I was wondering, in your opinion, if kratom would be good for reducing intense situation specific situations?

Thanks!


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## hillary (Mar 13, 2013)

Oops! I meant to say "reducing intense situation specific anxiety", in my last post.


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