# Substitute for Klonopin and Phenibut



## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Hello,

I've found out that SSRI's and stuff like Selegeline don't work for me. My 'cure' is Klonopin (or other benzo's but haven't tried yet) + Clonidine + Beta blocker.
I suffer from severe facial blushing and mostly from the fear of it. I found out that Clonidine and Propanolol lessen the actual blushing and flushing, while Klonopin (2mg) lessens the fear of it. 
When i'm on this combo my blushing and the fear of it are reduced to almost 0. Only in very stressfull events i still feel the fear of blushing, but i think that's normal, because every human being experiences some kind of fear in very stressfull events.
Because my blushing was the root of my SA, i feel my SA is becoming less and less every day. When i know i won't blush i am confident and can do almost all the things i can't when i know i will blush.
I've done some personality tests recently and tested ESFJ every time so i know (and already knew) blushing is the cause of my SA and not the other way around.
Sorry for the long story, now my actual question.
Because i know of the tolerance problems with Klonopin and Phenibut, i want to ask if there are any substitutes that are almost as effective?
I'm thinking of 3 days Klonopin, 2 days Phenibut and 2 days substitute.
There is no option for a weekend break, because i have some social activities in the weekends.
I've tried Inositol, L-Glutamine, L-Theanine and Kava kava, but these don't really come close to Klonopin.
I know of barbitures but i don't know if i want to try them. The same for GHB. I think it's too dangerous.
Are there any other safe substitutes i can try?

Thank you very much,

Jeffrey


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

You may try Picamilon. GHB/GBL or Phenobarbital would for sure work, but are not without risks and harder to obtain. If you live in the US forget about GHB. IMHO Pheno is not more risky than a Benzo, the fast-acting barbiturates are evil and can never be compared with the very slow acting Phenobarbital.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

You are


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I recommend niacinamide. Not from personal experience, but from rave reviews on the internet. Comes just behind Klon on revolutionhealth.com.

Mine's arriving tomorrow...


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Medline said:


> IMHO Pheno is not more risky than a Benzo, the fast-acting barbiturates are evil and can never be compared with the very slow acting Phenobarbital.


Is there any difference in effect other than speed of action between pheno and fast-acting barbs?

While barbs like Seconal & Nembutal are technically legal as C-II drugs, I bet no pharmacist under the age of 80 has ever seen a prescription for them in their entire career and then it would be a case of him handing them out when he was a young fella just fresh out of pharmacy school. Technically legal, though banned for home use for all practical purposes.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I don't really understand why barbs are schedule II and alcohol (ethanol) is legal. Pretty much identical effects, only one rapes your liver.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> I don't really understand why barbs are schedule II and alcohol (ethanol) is legal. Pretty much identical effects, only one rapes your liver.


It all has to do with history. Barbs date back only about a century.

Germany is famous for beer, just as France is famous for wine. Europeans have been enjoying beer, wine, and liquor for so very long that it doesn't scare them in the least. It's hard to be afraid of something like alcohol that (at least in WI) is literally in every grocery store, sold at every sporting event, and found in most homes. Doesn't the bible even have their main character turning water into wine? Don't Catholics drink wine at Sunday service that is supposed to represent the blood of their main man?

Alcohol production & consumption has a long and rich history in Western civilization. Barbs have a history that perhaps 1/60 as long. History makes all the difference in the world.

There is also the practical matter of you can't effectively ban alcohol since you can produce booze by fermenting any grain, fruit, or sugar cane. The DEA can't very well burn down the state of Iowa to get rid of corn, a precursor to moonshine.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> I don't really understand why barbs are schedule II and alcohol (ethanol) is legal. Pretty much identical effects, only one rapes your liver.


Except for phenobarb that is C-IV just like benzos.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> While barbs like Seconal & Nembutal are technically legal as C-II drugs, I bet no pharmacist under the age of 80 has ever seen a prescription for them in their entire career and then it would be a case of him handing them out when he was a young fella just fresh out of pharmacy school. Technically legal, though banned for home use for all practical purposes.


I think also younger pharmacists have seen prescriptions for Nembutal in some states for the purpose of euthanasia at least at some time. It's the perfect drug for a peaceful death. Phenobarbital is pretty safe in overdose (@ mono-intoxication), Primidone even more so.



> I don't really understand why barbs are schedule II and alcohol (ethanol) is legal. Pretty much identical effects, only one rapes your liver.


Let's make beer a schedule II controlled substance. Write a nice letter for the DEA/FDA and we all sign it... 



> Would switching between klonopin and valium prevent tolerance since they both work on different gaba receptors?


That won't work out, both modulate GABA-A receptors.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Medline said:


> Let's make beer a schedule II controlled substance. Write a nice letter for the DEA/FDA and we all sign it...


I have a better idea: how about the people running our countries grow some balls and let us decide what we put into our own bodies, or at least make law based on scientific fact rather than their dumbass [probably religious] opinion. Not long ago, the UK government _*rejected*_ advice from a panel of experts on cannabis, and upgraded it to B again. Who the *f**k* do these clowns think they are?

Sorry, turned that into another rant.

Maybe it's worth campaigning to ban alcohol purely to show them their hypocrisy and demonstrate how pathetic prohibition is.

(My niacinamide should arrive today; I'll update this thread with results.)


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Allowing people free access to fast acting barbiturates would do severe harm, they can't even handle benzos... lol ... We are talking about drugs that are effectively used for euthanasia!


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Maybe we should introduce a mandatory written test for those wishing to regulate their own drug-use, as well as signing a disclaimer saying "I will accept responsibility for any harm that comes to myself or others as a result of this". The test could have questions like "Is it safe to mix alcohol and benzodiazepines?". Of course, this is just a pipe dream.

UltraShy -- if you want to take opioids for your issues, have you considered kratom? It's a legal plant that contains an opioid that is really quite potent. It can be grown too, well, I suppose that's a given.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

In my country I see young people abusing fast acting benzos (Somnubene/Rohypnol) and alcohol at the subway station, laying there half-unconscious with blue-lips (from the coating of the drug). Would they abuse Seconal/Nembutal instead they would all be dead.


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## screwjack (Dec 19, 2008)

euphoria said:


> UltraShy -- if you want to take opioids for your issues, have you considered kratom? It's a legal plant that contains an opioid that is really quite potent. It can be grown too, well, I suppose that's a given.


This is a grey area but opiates are easy to order online if you know what you are doing "flower arrangements" I wouldn't recommend it though.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I don't know about "kratom", but if it's a full mu agonist then it's a dead end, isn't it? Things like Buprenorphine can really "treat" depression and anxiety in some resistant cases IMHO.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Medline said:


> In my country I see young people abusing fast acting benzos (Somnubene/Rohypnol) and alcohol at the subway station, laying there half-unconscious with blue-lips (from the coating of the drug). Would they abuse Seconal/Nembutal instead they would all be dead.


I call this natural selection.

Of course, you are right. Having all drugs legal only works if people educate themselves and don't act irresponsibly, which will never happen while 99% of people are absolute morons.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Not long ago you overdosed on benzodiazepines and took 1000mg Wellbutrin. Another time you combined PEA + Selegiline + GBL resulting in seizures and ICU or hospital treatment if I remember correctly. Do you call this responsible and educated acting?


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Nope, but if I'd died, I would've accepted it as my own fault rather than the government's lack of intervention. Just like if I play with fire, I won't whine about it if I get burnt.

Also, those two things you mentioned were actually a single event (IIRC). I feel really bad about it, but it will never happen again. It only did because my judgement was impaired on G.

I was actually not at risk of dying, but my parents called an ambulance anyway. They didn't do anything at the hospital except give IV fluids and electrolytes.

I've put those days behind me now.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for the help guys!

Any updates on the niacinamide euphoria?


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Another question.

Can someone please explain the difference between GBL and GHB?
Which one works better against anxiety?
When i searched Google i found 99,9% GBL, but they were cleaning products. Is that right? Do i have to convert this to GHB or can it be taken pure?
I also want to ask if it is possible to get Phenobarbital in Europe, so i can maybe ask my doctor for it?

Thanks


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

> Any updates on the niacinamide euphoria?


It feels like a very low dose of Valium, not the potent cure some people describe it as.



Beffrey28 said:


> Another question.
> 
> Can someone please explain the difference between GBL and GHB?
> Which one works better against anxiety?


Both end up as GHB, so they're the same. GBL has a faster onset however, and clears more quickly.



> When i searched Google i found 99,9% GBL, but they were cleaning products. Is that right? Do i have to convert this to GHB or can it be taken pure?


Some people convert it, some dilute GBL in drinks. Carbonated drinks mask the taste well.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> Can someone please explain the difference between GBL and GHB?


GBL is a GHB precursor, it's metabolized to GHB very fast when ingested and goes into the blood stream & the brain independently of stomach content. IMHO it's a more "nasty" substance with a higher addiction potential as it has a faster onset and comedown. But GBL is not toxic.



> Which one works better against anxiety?


Trying to treat generalized SA with just GHB or GBL will in allmost all cases fail. And if it does, this could mean 24/7 use for months, delirium, seizures and ICU treatment. Taking it eg. just on weekends or special occasions is a different story, but GHB is a complex and tricky drug.



> When i searched Google i found 99,9% GBL, but they were cleaning products. Is that right?


They all call the stuff "cleaning product" for legal reasons and they all write it's 99,9x% pure, but just 1 or 2 can provide independent laboratory analysis certificates at least back in the good old days. 



> Do i have to convert this to GHB or can it be taken pure?


It's easy to convert, but then you would be synthesizing a controlled substance. You can take it "pure", but have to dilute it with much eg. juice otherwise it would burn on your tongue...



> I also want to ask if it is possible to get Phenobarbital in Europe, so i can maybe ask my doctor for it?


Phenobarbital is still approved in many/most European countries for trd epilepsy, but your doctor will most likely not handle out a script to you. It can be bought online, it's cool to get off benzos but not really a better anxiolytic then eg. Klonopin.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Would this be a good week schedule to prevent dependence and tolerance?
I use 20mg Propanolol and 5 mg Clonodine every day.

Monday: 2 mg Klonopin
Tuesday: 60? mg Phenobarbital
Wednesday: 2 g Phenibut
Thursday: 2 mg Klonopin
Friday: 60? mg Phenobarbital
Saturday: 2/3 times 1,5 ml GBL 
Sunday: 1 g L-Theanine + Alcohol (a few beers)


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I don't want you to do that! Klonopin and especially Phenobarbital stay long in your system, taking GHB or GBL 1-2 days later could cause severe respiratory depression. You have to think about such stuff like half-life, duration of action, potentiation of CNS depression and so on.

You can take the Klonopin for some weeks or 2-3 months and then the Pheno to come off it without any rebound/withdrawal symptoms.

I think you shouldn't order GBL, you seem not to understand that in combination with Phenobarbital, Benzodiazepines or Alcohol it can easily *KILL* you.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Phenibut too has a long half-life.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> Phenibut too has a long half-life.


I read the plasma half-life of a 250mg dose of Phenibut was 5,3 hours.

http://www.rxlist.com/phenobarbital-drug.htm


> Phenobarbital has a plasma half-life of 53 to 118 hours (mean: 79 hours).


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Oh right, but phenibut lasts several days with effects. Must be due to the large doses people use, and slow GI absorption.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Ok, should have looked more into stuff like half life and duration.
But in your "100% cured of Social Phobia" topic you say that you take Klonopin during the week and GBL in the weekend to party. Since the half life of Klonopin is around 35 hours i guess you used GBL only in the evenings?
I didn't know Phenobarbial had such a long half life compared to Klonopin, so i just leave that stuff alone. 
You told me its better not to order GBL, but i dont agree. I am very responsible when i use drugs. I just didn't take a good enough look into the actions of the drugs in question. I am not a Medical Wonder Kid like you guys are, but i am responsible. Never OD'ed on drugs. (only vomitted due to alcohol...).
So i'm glad you well educated guys can learn me these things.
I read a lot about GBL and i think i can responsibly use it 1 or 2 times a week.
Phenibut has a shorter half life than Klonopin so i think this regime must work:

Monday:Klonopin
Tuesday:Klonopin
Wednesdayhenibut
Thursday:Klonopin
Fridayhenibut
Saturday:2/3 times 1,5 ml GBL (party)
Sunday:2/3 times 1,5 ml GBL or L-Theanine + few beers

Tell me what you thinks about this!


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Beffrey28 said:


> Ok, should have looked more into stuff like half life and duration.
> But in your "100% cured of Social Phobia" topic you say that you take Klonopin during the week and GBL in the weekend to party. Since the half life of Klonopin is around 35 hours i guess you used GBL only in the evenings?
> I didn't know Phenobarbial had such a long half life compared to Klonopin, so i just leave that stuff alone.
> You told me its better not to order GBL, but i dont agree. I am very responsible when i use drugs. I just didn't take a good enough look into the actions of the drugs in question. I am not a Medical Wonder Kid like you guys are, but i am responsible. Never OD'ed on drugs. (only vomitted due to alcohol...).
> ...


It's not very responsible for me to say this, but Klonopin + GBL can easily be done. You just have to go up very slowly on both 'til you hit the sweet spot. Of course, such a combo would probably turn you into a moron.

For GBL, I recommend you dilute it thoroughly or even better, convert to GHB. Are you in the US? GBL is schedule I in some states, I believe, and is covered by the Federal Analog Act elsewhere.

The only way I could swallow GBL after a while was by mixing with carbonated water. Masks the taste by numbing your mouth. GBL tastes like paint stripper, coz it is.

When I did GBL >3 times a day for several weeks (even without getting addicted), I got symptoms of vitamin deficiency such as paraesthesia (probably started by heavy nitrous use). You might want to supplement a B complex.

Theanine might look innocuous enough, but it can increase GABA levels and I imagine, potentiate the hell out of the other drugs (ESPECIALLY KLON!). Be careful.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks Euphoria!
No i live in Holland, so i can get anything i want pretty easily. I can get GHB too, but its pretty expensive. I can make it myself, but i only want to use it once or twice a week, so i guess i keep it to GBL for now.
The part of making me a moron. Well, i only take 2 mg Klonopin a day 3 times a week, and GBL only in the weekends, so i don't think i'll turn into a moron that soon. (or maybe i am already lol...) And if it does i will quit soon enough, because i like my good memory.
I always remember things other people don't and i like that part of my personality.
So i'll dose GBL pretty carefully and don't exceed 2 mg of Klonopin on days i use it.
I already take B-vitamins, L-Tyrosine, DMAE, L-Tryptophan and Magnesium so i don't think i will get symptoms of deficiency.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I'd be careful taking too much L-tryptophan, as some of it goes down the niacin -> kynurenine pathway, giving kynurenic acid, the probable cause of schizophrenia (blocks the same receptor as ketamine for dissociation, but not the antidepressant site).

Maybe taking niacin with tryptophan would saturate that metabolic route and prevent too much KYNA; I don't know.

Also, pyridoxal 5-phosphate (P5P) will help get amino acids converted to neurotransmitters, like with tryptophan -> serotonin.

When dabbling with CNS depressants, I think cholinergic drugs like huperzine A are a good idea.


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