# My nardil journey



## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hello all,

I plan to post updates as to how I handle nardil and my experiences with it. I start tomorrow and will be starting at 30mg for maybe a week and then jumping to 45mg and seeing how things go. Since I am sensitive to medicine I think this starting dose should be fine. Wish me luck and I am scared poopless about the food interactions. I know I will be fine but the thought just scares me.

My meal tomorrow will be:

Morning - Red Grapes

Lunch - PB Sandwhich and chips

Dinner - Chipotle (chicken, black beans, peppers and onions, rice and salsa)

I think this is a safe food list.

Wish me luck


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Good luck! Best wishes/Alex


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Holy poop! Im effing nervous, I felt like I was playing russian roulette this morning while trying to take the pill. I was pacing and walking around thinking and re-thinking about the food list. Worrying about my prozac and paxil washout period. But then my balls got a little bigger and I said screw it and swallowed the pill. Nardil, don't fail me.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Today I guess I didn't die. Well not sure at least yet because I am currently eating chipotle. I decided to take it easy and get simple stuff like chicken, black beans, rice, salsa and lettuce. 

I'm still pretty nervous about the whole diet thing. I don't know how to answer my fiancé when she asks what do I do about getting a bad piece of meat from a restaurant.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Day two - still worried about eating the wrong thing. I keep worrying about situations that may come up and I will have to find a solution, for example getting invited to an event that only serves hotdogs. I know it sounds dumb but that's my worry.

To those maoi peeps - do you eventually stop worrying about the food interactions or does the medicine help you not to worry. I dread having to eat...


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

First of all you don't even have enough MAO inhibition yet to get SS. So your fear in getting it after popping one pill was senseless. 

Yes, you stop worrying about it. I was nervous at first too. But the more time that goes by and the more you eat, you realize how it really isn't a big deal. If you go to a party and you can't eat anything, well you didn't realize there would be food there and you just ate or you are getting over a stomach virus or something. Give it time.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

You will be just fine. 

Are you prone to panic attacks at all?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks. I am not sure I have panic attacks but it's definitely anxiety. 

Is eating out often something I should stop? Reason I ask is I am realizing how often I go out and or grab something to eat. Like I had chipotle yesterday and my fiancé wants to go out to eat tonight for my early birthday. I don't know if I want to go out to eat that often.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

*Less than 1% of people on MAOIs will ever *experience an actual hypertensive crisis. Of those who do, *93%* of them will have _no_ serious complications. You are more likely to be injured by driving a car, than be injured by an MAOI-related hypertensive episode.

source - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8399806

Lesson: be sure a wear a seatbelt on the way to the restaurant!


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## DeafBoy36 (Dec 12, 2009)

Caedmon said:


> *Less than 1% of people on MAOIs will ever *experience an actual hypertensive crisis. Of those who do, *93%* of them will have _no_ serious complications. You are more likely to be injured by driving a car, than be injured by an MAOI-related hypertensive episode.
> 
> source - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8399806
> 
> Lesson: be sure a wear a seatbelt on the way to the restaurant!


That's GOOD news to hear especially to someone who will venture into the MAOI-world medications.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Ugh I don't think I can do this. The problem I'm worried about is getting too comfortable with my diet. I mean you will have a reaction at least once because you will keep testing foods until you hit a reaction and then you learn not to keep testing. I hear people eating foods on the do not eat list like chocolate, I don't understand, One of these days you'll eat a weird brand of chocolate and get a reaction. How can you trust eating large amounts of one brand and expecting other brands to be safe?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

It would be nice too to hear from other maoi ppl that have been on an maoi and never had a reaction. I noticed that some of the users I talked to on this forum, ~ 50% of them have had a reaction.

Some users I can think of are 

Shyone
Mr t
Zen dog.

Seems like a lot for this forum and it makes me question the 1% of all people on Maois get a hypertensive crisis.

Sorry for attacking all the data, I'm just still pretty nervous


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

Nardil saved my life. Following this diet is nothing compared to living with depression and SA. I have never had a hypertensive crisis. I was ultra careful in the beginning until I felt more comfortable and now I am just smart. You really need to understand how the food interactions work, including quantities. Chocolate is allowed. What food list are you looking at?


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8617704


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## DeafBoy36 (Dec 12, 2009)

Cascade said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8617704


Love this abstract. Very helpful. Looking at the diet list, it's not so bad. I love cheese, but I don't eat aged cheese, so I need to watch that one out.


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## DeafBoy36 (Dec 12, 2009)

Cascade:

How does this medication compare to say, a SNRI or/and a SSRI. I'm curious to know your personal experience with this? Does this put you into total anxiety/depression remission?


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## Paxil123 (May 12, 2013)

when is what will its effect Nardil? i take it from 1 mounth to 60 mg and I'm always anxious if not worse ...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks for the response. I think I will be safe because I am a worrier. Its really frustrating though when you try to eat something but get nauseous and can't eat much because your so nervous. I mean, its for dumb reasons too. Last night I had pizza but removed the cheese, I for some reason was getting nervous over eating this even though its safe lol. I can't stand my GAD sometimes. I think If I didn't have a fiance and big family that I would have an easier time taking this med. I can't stand when my fiance asks me, "are you sure you can eat this"? to stuff like frosting, and I'm like, "uh yea". Just not cheese frosting (not sure they even make this)


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

As a side note my social anxiety seems to be less and my thought process is a little slower than usual. Could certainly be placebo. Man nardil makes me thirsty.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

So end of day 4 and I've noticed less anxiety. How is this even possible? I'm not getting butterflies as much and feel more relaxed. Once again, probably placebo and if it's real it could just be a starting side effect. I will have some really detailed questions later about the diet, anyone up for helping me?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hopefully someone can help me with this.

So I want to make tacos, the packet has yeast extract, is this safe?

Some website said you can't thaw meat on the counter - a lot of people do this so I'm surprised it's not allowed?

Are things like chicken and rice safe? It has dried chicken broth in it.

I bought bread crumbs today that has Romano and Parmesan listed in the ingredients. Is this safe?


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

DeafBoy36 said:


> Cascade:
> 
> How does this medication compare to say, a SNRI or/and a SSRI. I'm curious to know your personal experience with this? Does this put you into total anxiety/depression remission?


SSRIs never did anything for me. I always felt like I was taking a placebo on them and I've tried a ton of them. I tried Cymbalta and Effexor. Both made me incredibly nauseous and the withdrawal after less than two weeks was horrible. MAOIs are the first ADs that have had any efficacy with me. Nardil 60 mg puts me into total remission.


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> So end of day 4 and I've noticed less anxiety. How is this even possible? I'm not getting butterflies as much and feel more relaxed. Once again, probably placebo and if it's real it could just be a starting side effect. I will have some really detailed questions later about the diet, anyone up for helping me?


Within a couple of days of starting Nardil, my anxiety is drastically reduced. Prior to starting this last time I was consuming massive amounts of Ativan. Within days of starting the Nardil, I barely needed it. It doesn't completely kill anxiety though until I am on it for a couple of months.


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Hopefully someone can help me with this.
> 
> So I want to make tacos, the packet has yeast extract, is this safe?
> 
> ...


Taco seasoning I am not sure about. It isn't something I would eat, so I have never looked into it.

You can thaw meat on the counter. Just watch it and as soon as it is defrosted, stick it in the fridge. Don't let it hang out enjoying itself.

Chicken broth is fine.

The bread crumbs are likely fine. The overall amount you will be consuming of the Parmesan is little. Again it is about amounts.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Cascade said:


> Taco seasoning I am not sure about. It isn't something I would eat, so I have never looked into it.
> 
> You can thaw meat on the counter. Just watch it and as soon as it is defrosted, stick it in the fridge. Don't let it hang out enjoying itself.
> 
> ...


Ugh I feel like giving up. The only reason why I want to give up is I don't want to make my fiance worry about me and I don't ever want to put her into a position if something bad ever happened to me. If I was single it would be easier as I wouldn't have to worry about myself.

My fiance wants to take me out tonight for my birthday to cheesecake factory and my mom told me today that my aunt got food poisoning from them before. Does getting food poisoning mean you will get the tyramine reaction? Isn't food poisoning caused from bad meats?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

I didn't have any problems with Yeast extracts in say Chips. I can eat a bag.

First time i was on Parnate i was so scared of everthing, lost abit of weight wich was good.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

watertouch said:


> I didn't have any problems with Yeast extracts in say Chips. I can eat a bag.
> 
> First time i was on Parnate i was so scared of everthing, lost abit of weight wich was good.


Haha thanks for helping. My family is very encouraging with nardil. It's crazy, I think they just want to see me get beter. I can tell the nardil is taking effect on my body. Its only day 5 but I feel high! I don't know if its the high feeling or what but I feel less anxious already. I know this drug is going to kick my *** already because of how weird I feel. I am hoping to only have to use 45mg like Shyone because I am sensitive to meds. Plus I don't want to keep waiting for it to kick in. I think its helping anxiety a lot but not depression yet.

So just another never ending food question. Does anyone avoid meats in say a restaurant because of something going bad? Should I eat salad every time I go out? lmao


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Well if you see shows like Gordon Ramseys kitchen nightmares. Where the meet is so old it's green. It makes normal people scared to go out to eat.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

watertouch said:


> Well if you see shows like Gordon Ramseys kitchen nightmares. Where the meet is so old it's green. It makes normal people scared to go out to eat.


Are you saying you don't go out to eat?


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

I avoid:
Aged cheeses (usually says on package or in restaurane menu) or cheeses i am not familiar with or blue cheese
Aged meats
Soy sauce

That is all.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Are you saying you don't go out to eat?


No but when i do i order simple stuff. A stake with fries or such and avoid strange Asian/thai food.

You can't really sue anyone here in Sweden if they give me an old stake and i get a hypertensivcrisis. And of course if you ask them if its fresh they gonna say "of course"..:mum


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## tjmack (Sep 19, 2012)

I have been on Parnate for over 10 years. I eat at resturants and fast food places all the time. I have never had any problems. 

I avoid:

Aged cheeses.
Aged meats.
Soy sauce.

That is all.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

tjmack said:


> I have been on Parnate for over 10 years. I eat at resturants and fast food places all the time. I have never had any problems.
> 
> I avoid:
> 
> ...


Whoa ten years! How is parnate working after all that time?


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## Captainmycaptain (Sep 23, 2012)

I am so split about Nardil. The side effects are really hardcore on this stuff, in particular the sweating, the tiredness during the day, the inability to sleep and ejaculation problems. With that said, the suffering I go through from anxiety every day is becoming unbearable. I have gone back to self-medicating with alcohol again, but I would imagine that that is just making things worse.


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Ugh I feel like giving up. The only reason why I want to give up is I don't want to make my fiance worry about me and I don't ever want to put her into a position if something bad ever happened to me. If I was single it would be easier as I wouldn't have to worry about myself.
> 
> My fiance wants to take me out tonight for my birthday to cheesecake factory and my mom told me today that my aunt got food poisoning from them before. Does getting food poisoning mean you will get the tyramine reaction? Isn't food poisoning caused from bad meats?


Not necessarily. It can be caused by raw or under cooked meats. Lettuce can have salmonella. There are a whole host of reasons. When I go to restaurants like diners that have a twenty page menu, I am cautious because I wonder how they can track all the food. Otherwise I don't think twice about it. Remember Western countries have very strict safety standards these days. Also, remember that a hypertensive crisis from food is a short term rise in blood pressure that will usually resolve itself. And you can always go to a hospital. You've got to relax about this or you will drive yourself crazy.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Does anyone have clonidine with them to take? I know Mr. T effectively used it when he had one crisis.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Does anyone have clonidine with them to take? I know Mr. T effectively used it when he had one crisis.


Who have recomended Clonidine? Im not sure that should be taken with MAOIs.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Found this from a Swedish article, page 12.
https://www.pfizerfarmaci.se/c/docu...9a7-11c0-42a5-acc2-8db8235c1389&groupId=10339

and the google search, i dont know how to use google Translate.
https://www.google.se/#newwindow=1&q=serip+klassiska+mao-hämmare

I quote.
"Likaså kan vissa antihypertensiva såsom tiazider,amfametyldopa och clonidine ge hypertensiva reaktioner"

"Also can some antihypertensive such as tiazider,amfametyldopa and clonidine cause hypertensive reactions"


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

watertouch said:


> Found this from a Swedish article, page 12.
> https://www.pfizerfarmaci.se/c/docu...9a7-11c0-42a5-acc2-8db8235c1389&groupId=10339
> 
> and the google search, i dont know how to use google Translate.
> ...


I think I may be wrong? What is the blood pressure med that works immediately and lowers blood pressure?

On a side note. I am feeling better. Day 6 at 30mg. I am shocked I have felt anything yet. Im actually scared at the fact that I am responding already. If I am responding at a low dose and already on day 6, what will happen in two weeks or more?

Anyways heres an example. Today I ran into someone I work with and talked for a good 20-30mins. Normally I would be dying and wanting to end the conversation but instead I was listening and actually sorta enjoyed it. This morning I was singing to my music which I haven't done in months. Now I still have anxiety but it is way less than it was months or even days ago. Maybe hypomania? I have no euphoria though.:clap

Another example too, I have a meeting with a big client today with my boss. Normally I would be freaking out and pop a benzo. Now I am not worried about it and have no desire to take a benzo.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Nifedipine or Adalat.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

The effect will increase with MAO gets inhibithed more and more!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

watertouch said:


> Nifedipine or Adalat.


Nifedipine/Adalat requires a licens here in Sweden. And of course the Swedish FDA said no to my Drs request. So i gonna need to get a ambulance if the benzo and walking around doesn't work.:|

Altough that might be fun, minus the crisis. Ride/road(?) a Police car once, but no lights or sirens.


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## Captainmycaptain (Sep 23, 2012)

I started to bomb 90 mg from yesterday. Feel extremely weird and yet super human. These meds are wild.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

watertouch said:


> Nifedipine/Adalat requires a licens here in Sweden. And of course the Swedish FDA said no to my Drs request. So i gonna need to get a ambulance if the benzo and walking around doesn't work.:|
> 
> Altough that might be fun, minus the crisis. Ride/road(?) a Police car once, but no lights or sirens.


Haha that's pretty funny. I actually had to ride in the back of the police car once. Was the most BS thing I've ever had to do. I apparently told the dr I was suicidal and the state where I live requires a person by law to get a psych evaluation as soon as possibly. So I ended up in a psych ward against my will. Most rediculous experience in my entire life.


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## Captainmycaptain (Sep 23, 2012)

The first month I was on Nardil, I experienced all of those horrible side-effects which I believe I discussed on here many times. The second month, all of the side-effects went away and I was much happier, but by week 12 or so, my drug dealer, errrr, I mean my friendly neighborhood doctor ran out of Nardil. I had to get off it and everything went to ****. Then the doctor got his **** together and got me more. I started ****ing with high doses immediately, but the side-effects started kicking my ***, so I stopped. Then I took another week off, took 90 for a day or two and then stopped. Took another break and then 90 again for two days. MY DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY LITERALLY VANISHED! MY SOCIAL ANXIETY JUST DISAPPEARED AND I HAD ONE OF THE WORST CASES OF SOCIAL ANXIETY ON HERE. I WAS EVEN AGORAPHOBIC MOST OF THE TIME. I KNOW THIS SOUNDS CRAZY, BUT I FEEL THIS TINGLING ALL OVER AS A LIFETIME OF DEPRESSION, ANXIETY AND LONELINESS IS FLOATING FROM ME. IT'S SO WEIRD. I WONDER IF I AM HALLUCINATING, DREAMING OR DIED BECAUSE IT IS SO SURREAL. THIS IS NOT A JOKE OR EXAGGERATION. THIS MORNING, AND LAST NIGHT, I HAD THIS VERY STRANGE FEELING COME OVER ME WHICH I LITERALLY CANNOT EXPRESS IN WORDS. IT WAS TERRIFYING. I WAS SO SCARED THAT I WAS CONSIDERING RUNNING A BATH AND HURTING MYSELF. I WENT TO THE CONVENIENCE STORE AND DRANK A BOTTLE OF VODKA AND THEN SLEPT THREE HOURS LAST NIGHT. I WOKE UP THIS MORNING AND THE FEELING BECAME EVEN WORSE. I FELT EGO DEATH. I WENT TO THE STORE AND DRANK ANOTHER BOTTLE OF VODKA IN ORDER TO CALM DOWN. EVENTUALLY THIS TRAUMA DIED AND THE ABOVE TINGLING FEELING, LIKE I WAS BEING WRAPPED IN THE HANDS OF GOD, TOOK OVER ME. This is the absolute truth. Get on Nardil everyone. Ask me about it if you would like.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Haha that's pretty funny. I actually had to ride in the back of the police car once. Was the most BS thing I've ever had to do. I apparently told the dr I was suicidal and the state where I live requires a person by law to get a psych evaluation as soon as possibly. So I ended up in a psych ward against my will. Most rediculous experience in my entire life.


Did you have a cop on the seat next to you? Or is it like on "Cops" and they just shoved you in the back.

Being from Sweden naturally they drive Volvo, and a cop sits next to you. You sit on the right side and the cop on left behind the driver, guess so the suspect can be stopped from interfer with the driver.
I wasn't really a suspect, they took me in for questioning, so no handcuffs.
Had a female cop next to me, the male drove . Couldn't stop thinking how easy i could go for her gun. Well i was drunk, best birthday ever though!!! And the cops even congratulated me:b

My friend however got to ride in the Van with 5cops, he didn't had that fun, they gave him a noseburn.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

DRUGSAREnotGOOD said:


> .


Are you sure you're on the right dose?, sounds a bit hypomanic. And that Vodka consumtion to be able to sleep sound really unhealthy and could potentiet the hypomania. And the thoughts about hurting yourself.

You probably should lower the dose!


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## Captainmycaptain (Sep 23, 2012)

watertouch said:


> Are you sure you're on the right dose?, sounds a bit hypomanic. And that Vodka consumtion to be able to sleep sound really unhealthy and could potentiet the hypomania. And the thoughts about hurting yourself.
> 
> You probably should lower the dose!


Thank you for your response. It's not hypomania, bc hypomania is an uncomfortable happiness. What I experienced was different. I mean, I had a nervous breakdownwn this morning. I mean a real breakdown. Not depression or anxiety. It was a weird feeling.d i took alcohol to settle down. This breakdown led to a complete remission.please reread my post.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

watertouch said:


> Did you have a cop on the seat next to you? Or is it like on "Cops" and they just shoved you in the back.
> 
> Being from Sweden naturally they drive Volvo, and a cop sits next to you. You sit on the right side and the cop on left behind the driver, guess so the suspect can be stopped from interfer with the driver.
> I wasn't really a suspect, they took me in for questioning, so no handcuffs.
> ...


Weird! Two cops showed up a girl and a guy. They didn't handcuff me because I was compliant. They put me in the back and cop cars in the US have a metal fence type mesh that goes from the ceiling to about halfway and there is this wall type thing that goes down from the metal fence thing. So you are essentially stuck in this cabin and if the cop crashed and the car was burning you would die. The cop was so cool, he let me ask him questions about anything and told me pranks he plays on other cops (pepper spray on the driving wheel).

Why would they question you in the station. Can't they question you in person without going to a place?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

DRUGSAREnotGOOD said:


> Thank you for your response. It's not hypomania, bc hypomania is an uncomfortable happiness. What I experienced was different. I mean, I had a nervous breakdownwn this morning. I mean a real breakdown. Not depression or anxiety. It was a weird feeling.d i took alcohol to settle down. This breakdown led to a complete remission.please reread my post.


That sounds scary what you are doing. I imagine that when you start nardil at 90mg that anything could happen. I believe what you said probably did happen. You are overloading your brain with chemicals. Your way better off tapering up slowly. I would start at 30mg and after a week possibly go to 45mg or maybe 60mg.

I thought you can't drink on nardil? I know people still do. Is vodka safe with nardil? I noticed there wasn't any tyramine in vodka. Why do they want people to avoid alcohol.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Why would they question you in the station. Can't they question you in person without going to a place?


I was with a group,one in that group who i never met before stole a cellphone from a girl on the subway. So they took in some of us to take statement or to compare them.

About alcohol, well its not really recomended for anyone with mental problems.

Drinking while on an MAOi. I don't really feel any difference. But one should be careful at first... And avoid tyramine, tapbeer and such.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

It takes time to feel comfortable with eating and the diet but you will be okay. I only would use benzodiazepines (alprazolam or diazepam) in the event of tyramine related BP increases, to avoid a panic cycle and take the edge off of adrenergic overstimulation. My understanding is that this is the general consensus in emergency medicine and many psychs/researchers but I would come up with a plan with your doctor. I understand the rationale for patients having and taking fast-acting BP reducers but I respectfully feel differently. 



a screaming guy said:


> I ABUSE PRESCRIPTION DRUGS INCLUDING NARDIL AND HAVE HUGE MOOD SWINGS, I DRANK 2 BOTTLES OF VODKA, NOW I AM CURED


:blank


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Caedmon i guess thats also how swedish fda rationales it. Its better to take the Benzo and walk around and in worst case ambulance to the ER.
Its risky with the BP lowering meds but still, incase im on an island or out on the countryside it could come handy.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks guys. I need to figure how to ask for a benzo without looking like an addict. Should I just tell him I have insomnia? I don't want him to be afraid of prescribing me nardil if I tell him I need a benzo if I get a reaction. 

On a side not I'm not bombarded by the diet anymore like I was. I feel safer eating now and I'm not panicking all day like I was.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

watertouch said:


> Caedmon i guess thats also how swedish fda rationales it. Its better to take the Benzo and walk around and in worst case ambulance to the ER.
> Its risky with the BP lowering meds but still, incase im on an island or out on the countryside it could come handy.


Looked throu my papers from Ken Gillmans "MAOi,Dietary Tyramin and drug interaction" i see that unless symptoms of "end organ" damage the rapid BP reduction may do more harm, then the short term BP elevation.

And that Nifedipine is now considered contraindicated because it has an unpredictable effect: it should not be given to patiens to self-administer.


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## Captainmycaptain (Sep 23, 2012)

barry1685 said:


> That sounds scary what you are doing. I imagine that when you start nardil at 90mg that anything could happen. I believe what you said probably did happen. You are overloading your brain with chemicals. Your way better off tapering up slowly. I would start at 30mg and after a week possibly go to 45mg or maybe 60mg.
> 
> I thought you can't drink on nardil? I know people still do. Is vodka safe with nardil? I noticed there wasn't any tyramine in vodka. Why do they want people to avoid alcohol.


Wait, I said my social anxiety and depression went into conplete remission and you offer me a more suitable course of treatment? Listen carefully every one--when my depression and anxiety lifted I became almost god-like--everything came easy to me. WHEN I TALKED TO PEOPLE THEY FIGURATIVELYBENT DOWN ON ONE KNEE TO BE. AFTER A LIFE LIFE OF BEING BETA, I INSTANTLY BECAME A NATURAL ALPHA. ACTUALLY, I WAS THE KING OF ALPHAS. I TESTED THIS BY INSTANT MESSAGING THIS ALPHA **** AND WHILE HE FIRST RESISTED AND CURSED ME OUT, HE EVENTUALLY RELENTED AND BECAME QUIET. HE LITERALLY STIPPED TALKING, I WOULD HAVE NO REASON TO MAKE THIS STORY UP SO BELIEVE IT. I WAS SITTING ON MY COUCH AT MY GUEST HOUSE AND THERE WAS ANOTHER PERSON WHO I JUST STARTING CHATTING UP WITHOUT FLYNCHING. THE PERSON FELT COMPELLED TO SIT DOWN BY ME. I WAS ABLE TO PROCESS ALL OF THE SUBLIMINAL THINGS HAPPENING BECAUSE OF MY LIMITLESS intelligence.
I WILL CONTINUE THIS MESSAGE WITHOUT EDITING ANY TYPOS IN ORDER TO PROVE TO YOU MY NEW FOUND. INTELLIGENCE. SEE HOW MANY MISTAKES I MAKE. I KNOW YOU ARE ALL SKEPTICAL THING OF THIS STORY AND THINK I'M A LOON BUT I HAVE NO REASON TO FAKE THIS. THATS WHY I'M DEMONSTRATING MY LIMITLESS INTELLIGENCE. I'M NOT THINKING FOR MORE THAN A A SPLIT SECOND OF WHAT I WANT TO SAY WHEREAS BEFORE I WOULD GO OVER MY PREPARED SPEECH ADNASEUM.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

DRUGSAREnotGOOD said:


> I WILL CONTINUE THIS MESSAGE WITHOUT EDITING ANY TYPOS IN ORDER TO PROVE TO YOU MY NEW FOUND. INTELLIGENCE.


That was actually abit funny. But you start to sound like Charlie Sheen.


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## Captainmycaptain (Sep 23, 2012)

I have a theory as to why my intelligence and clarity has become limitless after this incident. Either i am not using a significantly greater level of my brain or all of my years of feeling inadequate subconsciously forced my mindto work and learn several times more than the average person. When the cloud disappeared, it revealed a god. 

I also want to say that my heightend intellience has given insight into so-called alphas. They in fact are not genuine alphas because they still have insecurities unlike me. That is why that guy became si
am i perfect now? Not quite. I have noticed that i occasionally still make typos, but that is because i have not healed 100 percent yet.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

DRUGSAREnotGOOD said:


> I have a theory as to why my intelligence and clarity has become limitless after this incident. Either i am not using a significantly greater level of my brain or all of my years of feeling inadequate subconsciously forced my mindto work and learn several times more than the average person. When the cloud disappeared, it revealed a god.
> 
> I also want to say that my heightend intellience has given insight into so-called alphas. They in fact are not genuine alphas because they still have insecurities unlike me. That is why that guy became si
> am i perfect now? Not quite. I have noticed that i occasionally still make typos, but that is because i have not healed 100 percent yet.


No offense, but from my standpoint it looks like you are suffering from some serious hypomania.


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## Captainmycaptain (Sep 23, 2012)

barry1685 said:


> That sounds scary what you are doing. I imagine that when you start nardil at 90mg that anything could happen. I believe what you said probably did happen. You are overloading your brain with chemicals. Your way better off tapering up slowly. I would start at 30mg and after a week possibly go to 45mg or maybe 60mg.
> 
> I thought you can't drink on nardil? I know people still do. Is vodka safe with nardil? I noticed there wasn't any tyramine in vodka. Why do they want people to avoid alcohol.


Wait, I said my social anxiety and depression went into conplete remission and you offer me a more suitable course of treatment? Listen carefully every one--when my depression and anxiety lifted I became almost god-like--everything came easy to me. WHEN I TALKED TO PEOPLE THEY FIGURATIVELYBENT DOWN ON ONE KNEE TO BE. AFTER A LIFE LIFE OF BEING BETA, I INSTANTLY BECAME A NATURAL ALPHA. ACTUALLY, I WAS THE KING OF ALPHAS. I TESTED THIS BY INSTANT MESSAGING THIS ALPHA **** AND WHILE HE FIRST RESISTED AND CURSED ME OUT, HE EVENTUALLY RELENTED AND BECAME QUIET. HE LITERALLY STIPPED TALKING, I WOULD HAVE NO REASON TO MAKE THIS STORY UP SO BELIEVE IT. I WAS SITTING ON MY COUCH AT MY GUEST HOUSE AND THERE WAS ANOTHER PERSON WHO I JUST STARTING CHATTING UP WITHOUT FLYNCHING. THE PERSON FELT COMPELLED TO SIT DOWN BY ME. I WAS ABLE TO PROCESS ALL OF THE SUBLIMINAL THINGS HAPPENING BECAUSE OF MY LIMITLESS intelligence.
I WILL CONTINUE THIS MESSAGE WITHOUT EDITING ANY TYPOS IN ORDER TO PROVE TO YOU MY NEW FOUND. INTELLIGENCE. SEE HOW MANY MISTAKES I MAKE. I KNOW YOU ARE ALL SKEPTICAL THING OF THIS STORY AND THINK I'M A LOON BUT I HAVE NO REASON TO FAKE THIS. THATS WHY I'M DEMONSTRATING MY LIMITLESS INTELLIGENCE. I'M NOT THINKING FOR MORE THAN A A SPLIT SECOND OF WHAT I WANT TO SAY WHEREAS BEFORE I WOULD GO OVER MY PREPARED SPEECH ADNASEUM.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Dang! Chatting at work has been a piece of cake lately. I thought today that nardil wasn't working and nope I am wrong! I handle situations and enjoy them with way less anxiety. In fact my thought process has changed now. I no longer fear losing my job as I used to in fact I look forward to changing careers eventually. Sure I want and will keep my job cause the pays good but hell I'm far from worried about losing it.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Dang! Chatting at work has been a piece of cake lately. I thought today that nardil wasn't working and nope I am wrong! I handle situations and enjoy them with way less anxiety. In fact my thought process has changed now. I no longer fear losing my job as I used to in fact I look forward to changing careers eventually. Sure I want and will keep my job cause the pays good but hell I'm far from worried about losing it.


Thats nice, and Parnate stops my daily thoughts of suicide!
Ehh just messing. Altough it actually does.
Friday evening im starting Parnate again, so im having some Ale, rockband Iron Maiden.s own called Trooper. It's totally OK.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Oh man. I can't believe i've responded already to nardil, it makes me so happy and I can't believe I've waited my entire life to try it. Today I had to bring some questions up to my boss and normally hes an *** hole. He started freaking out over something so dumb and it made me laugh (inside). Before nardil I would shake and freak out that I was making my boss do this. But now I realize he is a tool. He can't handle simple problems without stressing. He tries to make you feel bad but guess what, didn't work man. He isn't going to make me feel bad or have any anxiety. I am done getting phased by his poor reactions.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Oh man. I can't believe i've responded already to nardil, it makes me so happy and I can't believe I've waited my entire life to try it. Today I had to bring some questions up to my boss and normally hes an *** hole. He started freaking out over something so dumb and it made me laugh (inside). Before nardil I would shake and freak out that I was making my boss do this. But now I realize he is a tool. He can't handle simple problems without stressing. He tries to make you feel bad but guess what, didn't work man. He isn't going to make me feel bad or have any anxiety. I am done getting phased by his poor reactions.


Wow thats Awesome! i would like to try Nardil but im to afraid of weightgain, put on some on Solian/amisulpride... And some from prev meds and comfort eating...
So it's Parnate for me and a fistfull of Benzo.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Well 3pill Xanax split over a day, but they fit in my palm.


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Hey you guys today is my starting day I have the lifesavers in my hand. Question do I just take 1 15 MG right now or 1 now 1 afternoon and 1 at night.


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

It says to take 3 a day but not sure if all at once?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

You take one first day and see how that goes, just to make sure you're not allergic. Then you can start upping the dose,probably alot of different scheduals here on this forum...


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Alright thanks as always, Alex the great!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

NP. Best Whishes!!! Hell im Starting myself on MAOi Parnate today... Best whishes to us both!!!!! hehe


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

toolband185 said:


> Hey you guys today is my starting day I have the lifesavers in my hand. Question do I just take 1 15 MG right now or 1 now 1 afternoon and 1 at night.


Play it by ear. Start easy with one pill, by the afternoon see how you feel. Try not to rush it because side effects can slip in later on in the game. I started 15mg the first day then 30mg for the next 5 days and now I am at 45 mg 3x a day. Im going to hold on to the dose for the next month and see how I feel. I have enough pills to try 60mg a day for 3 months if I want. So I may play with the dose a little bit later on in the trial.

Good luck! I'm sure you will do just fine.


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Will do as exactly. I see you are doing well and I'm bless that all three of us are going to get over this problem!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

watertouch said:


> Wow thats Awesome! i would like to try Nardil but im to afraid of weightgain, put on some on Solian/amisulpride... And some from prev meds and comfort eating...
> So it's Parnate for me and a fistfull of Benzo.


yea I think parnate is still pretty effective. I think the whole weight gain thing is overated. I haven't eaten anymore than usual and I even have motivation to go to the gym. In fact, I haven't have a single side effect yet, except dry mouth for the first week.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

toolband185 said:


> Will do as exactly. I see you are doing well and I'm bless that all three of us are going to get over this problem!


Yea its an amazing feeling to not feel anxiety. I feel like a new person. Now nardil hasn't completely made my depression fully go away yet but its not that bad in the first place either.

I think I will stay around for a while on these forums to see how I do and help others. But soon I may move on like many other users have on MAOIS.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> yea I think parnate is still pretty effective. I think the whole weight gain thing is overated. I haven't eaten anymore than usual and I even have motivation to go to the gym. In fact, I haven't have a single side effect yet, except dry mouth for the first week.


Yeah thats the stimulating effect.... Bodybuilders use PEA+ caffeine and other ingreds to potentiet PEA (dont take supplements like this on MAOi).

Im not taking chanses with the weight... The Solian put me up like 20pounds..And i was ON PARNATE...

So now its Parnate,BZ, maybe add a stimulant


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Yeah that would be nice, this forum is like an island. And we are stuck, its ok but we want to reach the mainland/going "mainstream".

I have somewhat sarcastic humor so... One stop writing here= "yeah!!! he made it" In reallity Hypertensivecrisis, or something like that. Probably.


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

toolband185 said:


> Hey you guys today is my starting day I have the lifesavers in my hand. Question do I just take 1 15 MG right now or 1 now 1 afternoon and 1 at night.


The recommendations that follow with all brands of Nardil is a joke. Most people need to take 60-75mg a day to get a potent relief to their symptoms. And going down to a maintenance dose of 1 pill a day has never worked to anyone I've spoken to that takes Nardil. Best effect is to take it all at once on an empty stomach.


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## Weston (Sep 23, 2006)

barry1685 said:


> Today I guess I didn't die. Well not sure at least yet because I am currently eating chipotle. I decided to take it easy and get simple stuff like chicken, black beans, rice, salsa and lettuce.
> 
> I'm still pretty nervous about the whole diet thing. I don't know how to answer my fiancé when she asks what do I do about getting a bad piece of meat from a restaurant.


Funny you picked black beans, because fermented black beans are on the excluded list. I think those are only in Chinese food, but I'm not 100% sure. It's extremely unlikely meat at a restaurant would cause a reaction. The problem foods are deliberately aged meats and cheeses.

If it makes you feel better Parnate is more likely to cause a hypertensive crisis than Nardil


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Weston said:


> Funny you picked black beans, because fermented black beans are on the excluded list. I think those are only in Chinese food, but I'm not 100% sure. It's extremely unlikely meat at a restaurant would cause a reaction. The problem foods are deliberately aged meats and cheeses.
> 
> If it makes you feel better Parnate is more likely to cause a hypertensive crisis than Nardil


Lmao for real? I didn't know that. I don't think they were fermented but that's good to know. Yea I'm feeling a lot better eating now. I'm not as worried as I was.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

On a side note, today I've noticed some side effects. I think I'm getting the blurred vision everyone talks about although I don't think it's blurred vision. I think it's lack of focus. I'll be reading something and just stop focusing because either I'm too lazy to read it or deal like day dreaming, it's weird. I also notice nardil tastes like garbage. It has a rubber like taste. I wouldn't be surprised if nardil was a derivative of rubber.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

It's actually a derivative of fuel!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrazine
Many old MAOIs are hydrazines, most no longer used because of liver damage risk but two still used in the U.S. (Phenelzine, isocarboxazid). (Parnate is an amphetamine derivative.)


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Caedmon said:


> It's actually a derivative of fuel!
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrazine
> Many old MAOIs are hydrazines, most no longer used because of liver damage risk but two still used in the U.S. (Phenelzine, isocarboxazid). (Parnate is an amphetamine derivative.)


Wow. I guess my tank was empty then.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

Yeah, take B6 supplement and get your liver function checked on Nardil. 

http://stahlonline.cambridge.org/pr...erapeutics&name=Phenelzine&title=Therapeutics


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Wow... Just an update.

Things are changing still. I will post a full nardil review once I've been on it for a full 4-6 weeks.

Today I agreed to go to the farmers market with a person I work with. Normally I would say no and not even be interested. Today I decided why not? Immediately I noticed my thoughts weren't racing and I could actually think for once. I actually didn't feel awkward for once. I knew I was saying awkward things at times but I honestly didn't care. I know that since my anxiety is disappearing I may be awkward but I will learn how to socialize with more practice.

In my opinion nardil removes a majority of one's anxiety but doesn't improve socializing skills. But I think you will gain social skills the more you practice, and with nardil practicing is easy.

For depression - I've felt an increased wanting to do things I normally wouldn't care for. Like video games, as sad as that sounds - Since beening depressed I lost interest in even playing video games or doing fun things. Now I am planning my weekends like a champ.


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

So awesome to hear that Barry. I'm on my 5th day of Nardil. 3rd day of 30mg, I'll be starting 45mg on day 5. I still haven't noticed any changes yet but excited to start feeling good because of your progress. Keep posting


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I just noticed i've been getting some weird anxiety/slight panic in the afternoon. I think its new because I never felt this before. I think it is still worth dealing with over social anxiety. But hopefully this is a side effect that goes away? Does anyone know why I would get this panic feeling? It has nothing to do with social anxiety and its random.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I bumped my dose up to 60mg last night. I noticed mild hypotension after standing up quickly from laying down for a while. Yay for hypotension. This is the actual first side effect that I really have noticed so far.

Update for anxiety - I think I am getting used to the anxiety relief from nardil. I am getting greedy and want more. Hopefully it will get better as time goes on since I have only been on nardil for 13 days.

I don't shake or feel awkward anymore while walking by people or in public places. I would say anxiety is still pretty low. Anxiety is about 70% gone.


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## DeafBoy36 (Dec 12, 2009)

Hey everyone,

Perhaps this already has been done, but could one of you who has used either nardil or/and parnate *for a long time?* make a list of extensive food restrictions so that others would see it and make it be a sticky thread? This would be very helpful&#8230;unless there's a post on this thread already about it, let me know&#8230;. thanks

I can relate to how Barry feels. I haven't even started MAOI but will start it in September, so I'm anxious about it&#8230;.. I'm not anxious about the medication-part. I'm pretty sure from many anecdotal studies that it's one of the best medications, I'm more anxious about the diet itself!

Thanks


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Hey Barry I thought you said you was going to wait on the 45mg for a month?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

toolband185 said:


> Hey Barry I thought you said you was going to wait on the 45mg for a month?


I was but I have been thinking lately that I normally need a higher dose of a medication to fully respond. For example, 10mg of paxil has a partial response in me. So I figure that 60mg would be a good start for me.

If side effects get bad I will probably lower the dose back to 45mg.

How are you feeling BTW?


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

I understand I was like that when I took Prozac at high dosages. 

I'm doing alright on my 6th day. On 30mg, I woke up this morning with less thinking about going outside around people. I dreamed really bad last night. I had to tell my self in the dream it wasn't real. My fiancee girlfriend is getting married on Saturday and in the dream she was messing around with ME! lol. 

On Saturday I have to go to her wedding and I'm still freaking out about it but let's just say it will be a big experiment for me while taking the Nardil. I have 2 klonopins for emergency. 

So far as side effects nothing yet. I'm constantly worrying about weight because I just hate weight gain in medicine so I been working out drinking water and taking multivitamin and b6. I even use the myfitnesspal to watch what I eat to keep track of my calories; suggested by my fiancee. 

Tomorrow I will be my last day at 30mg and on Friday I will start at 45mg. Wait on 45mg for a whole week and then jump to 60mg stay for a month. See how it goes by then. 

In the mean of all of this I'm working on my a+ certificate so I can find me a job with computer repair or something in the It field. Which I hope that with Nardil will help me not be so scared about getting a job! 

Best of luck to you Barry and I hope Alex aka watertouch is doing good too! God bless.


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

DeafBoy36 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Perhaps this already has been done, but could one of you who has used either nardil or/and parnate *for a long time?* make a list of extensive food restrictions so that others would see it and make it be a sticky thread? This would be very helpful&#8230;unless there's a post on this thread already about it, let me know&#8230;. thanks
> 
> ...


First to Barry: I felt bad last week when I told you to just relax! It isn't that simple. I was very nervous when I started too. After awhile, you really do stop worrying about it and it becomes part of your lifestyle without thinking about it.

Deafboy, if no one else does first, I will respond in the next couple of days. I just got a text and have to sign off.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Thanks i kickstartet Parnate at 30mg raised it to 40. Normally i can't take more then 30mg at once or i get OH. So about 3days on 40mg i got BP changes, MAO is affected. I got OH orthostatic hyptotension (going to standing from seated possition cause dizzines,vertigo, fainting feeling).

It's kinda fun i make it to the bathroom, zipdown and then mid-stream it hits me and i sometime must grab a hold on something, or sit down.

So today im dosing 30mg morning and 10mg in the afternoon.
Ive noticed that Nicotine worsening my OH, and im hooked on that (SNUS) and the effect is better with MAOi. So im gonna need to quit that.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hahaha ^ wicked funny. Need a walking stick eh? I hear ya on the OH. I am very lucky it hasn't effected me much. I believe ya that nicotine can be addicting on MAOis. I have been craving cigs lately. But can't get into that stuff again.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Hahaha ^ wicked funny. Need a walking stick eh? I hear ya on the OH. I am very lucky it hasn't effected me much. I believe ya that nicotine can be addicting on MAOis. I have been craving cigs lately. But can't get into that stuff again.


Actually that would be handy, or just stand up all the time :um. Nahh but i spread out the dose, and should kick the nicotine. I was down to 3 snus a day, now have a snus in my mouth all the day, yeasterday i fell asleep with a snus in.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Feel asleep with a snus in?

I tried chew before and I took too much and it made me feel like I was falling through the earth. 

Maybe we can design a mech warrior exoskeleton that can help us stay up all day.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Feel asleep with a snus in?
> 
> I tried chew before and I took too much and it made me feel like I was falling through the earth.
> 
> Maybe we can design a mech warrior exoskeleton that can help us stay up all day.


Yeah its swedish snus so you put it under the upper lip, so it usually stays in its place.

yeah or a wheelchair, but yeah so i have problem going higher then 60mg parnate 30morning 30mg afternoon. I would have to take it at evening, that would probably cause insomnia.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I've noticed lately that I have been getting really itchy in some certain areas of my skin. It's not hives but I get a rash from scratching so hard. Is this normal? I really don't want to quit nardil and I hope to god it's not allergic related. I have no other symptoms.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I've noticed lately that I have been getting really itchy in some certain areas of my skin. It's not hives but I get a rash from scratching so hard. Is this normal? I really don't want to quit nardil and I hope to god it's not allergic related. I have no other symptoms.


Where is the itch, upper arms and chest is usually an allergy.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

It's random and it only bothers me randomly. Can I take nardil with a mild allergic response?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> It's random and it only bothers me randomly. Can I take nardil with a mild allergic response?


Yeah it can go over, but ithing throat, and chest... not good.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Should I lower my dose?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Should I lower my dose?


Try stepping back, give it some time... But otherwise benedryl or such. But don't like mix them, if you allergic you cant be on benedryl forever...

And watch out for the throut!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

And try not to be Paronoid after my respons!


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Update here eye contact is really getting easier and talking to strangers wow, it's a working!!!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Crap man I hope I don't have to quit nardil. Could the itching just be a side effect?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Crap man I hope I don't have to quit nardil. Could the itching just be a side effect?


What have you been eating, MAOi also raises Histamine, so it could be something in food,fluids...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I have been eating PB and j and chips for lunch


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I have been eating PB and j and chips for lunch


I would give it some days, The antihistamine Benedryl works if it itches to much, but if you need to use it, u are probably allergic either to some food source or the med...:blank


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

I once had chronic hives of unknown origin. I was treated with Zyrtec and some kind of acid (H2) blocker. 

It is probably not yet possible to know if Nardil is causing the itching. Just keep an eye on it.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

How do I know of nardil is causing the itching? I'm going to lower my dose to 45mg for now. I read online that itching is an actual side effect so should I wait till I see visible hives?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> How do I know of nardil is causing the itching? I'm going to lower my dose to 45mg for now. I read online that itching is an actual side effect so should I wait till I see visible hives?


Change your eating to something less Histamine, like chicken n potatoes. Or eggs,

Ive had an allergic respons to Voxra/Wellbutrin/bupropion, but it was sever, scratching all over, throat. Called the helthcare hotline, they were like STOP at once...

But you are not there yeat.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

watertouch said:


> Change your eating to something less Histamine, like chicken n potatoes. Or eggs,
> 
> Ive had an allergic respons to Voxra/Wellbutrin/bupropion, but it was sever, scratching all over, throat. Called the helthcare hotline, they were like STOP at once...
> 
> But you are not there yeat.


Thanks. The itching is very weird. Like today walking to work and now that I am here its not that bad. But when I am laying in bed or like last night it was bothersome.

Ugh. So how is parnate for anxiety? Does it even work? Sucks that I have to consider another med already.

I feel like shedding some man tears right now :cry


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Thanks. The itching is very weird. Like today walking to work and now that I am here its not that bad. But when I am laying in bed or like last night it was bothersome.
> 
> Ugh. So how is parnate for anxiety? Does it even work? Sucks that I have to consider another med already.
> 
> I feel like shedding some man tears right now :cry


I also get ithing while going to sleep. And not being on an MAOi. so it can happen, so don't blame the meds to soon.

Parnate is ok i guess, it stops my daily thoughts of suicide. Makes me more "social", but i still use BZ and betablockers...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Gotcha.. Yea I feel like giving up already. That's my pessimistic thinking patterns. I feel like I always need to prepare for the worst. Should I wait till I get hives to quit nardil? I read that an uncommon side effect is itching so how can I tell if its allergic or not.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Just talked to my brother who is a PA and he suggested waiting til I get hives or any other symptoms because he said itching could just be a side effect. So I guess I am going to continue waiting.


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Hang in there I hate playing the waiting game too.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Well as an update I'm still itchy like yesterday. I wouldn't say I'm worse but this sucks. Do you think this will subside eventually? What do you guys think? The itching gets worse when clothes or objects are against my skin. If I am sitting at my desk I don't get itchy much, it's only when stuff runs against me. How long can I go like this? I don't have any rash but when I scratch a spot it turns red for a few mins.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Edit* the redness is normal and for some reason I thought it was worst. So my symptoms now are just itchiness and that's it. Itchiness is not bad when I change my focus but if I focus on it it becomes worst


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Well as an update I'm still itchy like yesterday. I wouldn't say I'm worse but this sucks. Do you think this will subside eventually? What do you guys think? The itching gets worse when clothes or objects are against my skin. If I am sitting at my desk I don't get itchy much, it's only when stuff runs against me. How long can I go like this? I don't have any rash but when I scratch a spot it turns red for a few mins.


This happened to me the first time I started Nardil. It was AWFUL. I itched from head to toe. It was so bad it felt like my hair itched and there was no redness anywhere on my body. I tried Benadryl and it didn't work. I read that it was a rare start up side effect that went away so I wasn't worried, but it was maddening. I then ended up in the hospital for a head injury and was given prednisone for the swelling and it immediately stopped the itch. It never came back. When I started Nardil the second time, the itch wasn't as bad but I still got a prescription for prednisone pills. They didn't have the immediate effect of the high dose injection, but all was and is fine in the end. Good luck. You can get through it.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks for everyone's support. The itchiness is going away. 

I notice that once I take my full dose in the mornings that it really kicks in for the anxiety part. Then sort of wears off by the end of the day. Is this just astray up effect since it's only been 16 days?


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Thanks for everyone's support. The itchiness is going away.
> 
> I notice that once I take my full dose in the mornings that it really kicks in for the anxiety part. Then sort of wears off by the end of the day. Is this just astray up effect since it's only been 16 days?


I can't take a full dose at once - it spikes my blood pressure way up so I take one at a time spaced throughout day and that gives me anxiety relief throughout day. If I take all in the morning, the anxiety does kick in by end of day.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Cascade said:


> This happened to me the first time I started Nardil. It was AWFUL. I itched from head to toe. It was so bad it felt like my hair itched and there was no redness anywhere on my body. I tried Benadryl and it didn't work. I read that it was a rare start up side effect that went away so I wasn't worried, but it was maddening. I then ended up in the hospital for a head injury and was given prednisone for the swelling and it immediately stopped the itch. It never came back. When I started Nardil the second time, the itch wasn't as bad but I still got a prescription for prednisone pills. They didn't have the immediate effect of the high dose injection, but all was and is fine in the end. Good luck. You can get through it.


Do you still take the prednisone? Or did the itching go away eventually?


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Do you still take the prednisone? Or did the itching go away eventually?


No I only took a five day course. I haven't itched since. The itching was much more minor the second time than the first. Prednisone is not a medication you want to take for more than a couple of days.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Cascade said:


> No I only took a five day course. I haven't itched since. The itching was much more minor the second time than the first. Prednisone is not a medication you want to take for more than a couple of days.


Oh gotcha. Well as long as nardil works I'll deal with the itching honestly. I have always been really itchy especially laying on stuff like the carpet or my bed. I always was really itchy in the mornings. I wonder since nardil raises histamine that if I am allergic to dust it amplifies my reaction?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Does anyone on nardil or anyone on a MAOi notice that the dose kicks in later in the day? Is this normal? Or will this go away the longer I'm on it?

I still have anxiety relief but I am hoping I get more relief as I approach the 4-6 week mark.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

No Parnate kick in after about an hour, and damn it have that "crash" in the afternoon.
Othewise it would be weird 2 cider before 7am, i thought they would show up, they didn't until about 12.00.

I did however had a nice talk with the Watchtower/Jehovas... The buildingworkers have a key, but i have somehwat of a Dobermann!...From now on, im not answering if the doorbells rings!!!

But Nardil has like Parnate a fast halflife and some suggest it to be taken spread out, morning, lunch, evening... While Parnate only morning or lunch, and cause sleeping problem if taken to late...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

watertouch said:


> No Parnate kick in after about an hour, and damn it have that "crash" in the afternoon.
> Othewise it would be weird 2 cider before 7am, i thought they would show up, they didn't until about 12.00.
> 
> I did however had a nice talk with the Watchtower/Jehovas... The buildingworkers have a key, but i have somehwat of a Dobermann!...From now on, im not answering if the doorbells rings!!!
> ...


LMAO haha talking with Jehovas? I just dont answer the doors unless its someone I know. I took 45mg this morning without any increase in BP. I think I need to take it in the morning because it kicks in later(like now) and lasts the entire night. Last night I didn't want to go to bed in a way, I felt like staying up. I may need to jump up to 75mg eventually but I still want to make sure side effect wise that this is a good decision. I still don't have hypo tension at week 3. When does hypotension kick in usually? I get a little light headed when I stand up fast from the couch but thats it. I still am getting good anxiety relief but I want MORE! I make good eye contact and not shaky like I used to be. I am waiting for the depression part to kick in and hopefully more motivation.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Be glad your not me on to high dose Parnate at once, and peeing and get hit/dizzy, mid-stream! ..

BP changes are a sign that it works, affecting MAO... So be glad, ad som more Salt/sodium in you food or such is an old trick....


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

You went on with 60mg?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> LMAO haha talking with Jehovas? I just dont answer the doors unless its someone I know. .


They were two older ladies 70 years or so, and super nice of course... If i joined their church, it would answer all my question about my existens ,and questions i have about my life...

I normally never opens the door, but since the neighbour crashed into my house 26may, it's all kind of people here. And i have mixraced-mostly Dobermann dog, so i have to watch him so he doesn't bite the construction workers..hehe
I thought they were just curtius ringing on the door before stepping in, but no, it was Jehovas....


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Whoa a neighbor crashed into your house? That's insane, were you home? You weren't fapping when they crashed in your house were you?

Yea I stayed with the 60mg because I don't want to mess around with low doses.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Whoa a neighbor crashed into your house? That's insane, were you home? You weren't fapping when they crashed in your house were you?
> 
> Yea I stayed with the 60mg because I don't want to mess around with low doses.


Lol i acctually was! for real!...All i cared was to get dressed, and turn of the comp, didn't care if the "houses, over floor" was gonna fall down...
I live at the end of chainhouses or what the are called, he was gonna drive in to his garage but stepped on wrong pedal... 26may, whole summer is ruined... And then he has the stomach to complaine that his garage haven't been fixed:mum


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

The nardil effect is wearing out on me. The anxiety is coming back slightly. I think this has to do with the dosing schedule I was on. 

First week: 30mg
Second week: 45mg
Third week 60mg

So as you can see I was getting anxiety relief as I was upping the dose. I think I have to wait the full 6-8 weeks to really see the true effects. I did notice some slight insomnia last night. I woke up around 1am and couldnt fall back to sleep. I woke up with my eye dry as poop. As a side note I felt a little motivation yesterday to get things done. But haven't felt the nardil magic yet.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Whoa a neighbor crashed into your house? That's insane, were you home? You weren't fapping when they crashed in your house were you?


This is what happen if you Fap, i havent fapped that much since then....
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f24/my-summer-1140098/#post1074510810


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Did you get PTSD from the experience? Pretty sure I wouldn't fap unless I was somewhere safe after that.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Did you get PTSD from the experience? Pretty sure I wouldn't fap unless I was somewhere safe after that.


Njae but i do react if i hear a car running the engine outside, or if i hear a loud noice i twitch.

But it's not like i awoid fapping, but its been alot of stress with construction workers, and all calls to insurence companys.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Yea I hate dealing with people. Although lately I don't have problems making phone calls to cancel things. Nardil worked really well this afternoon for me. I'm not sure if it's still in the beginning phase.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Yea I hate dealing with people. Although lately I don't have problems making phone calls to cancel things. Nardil worked really well this afternoon for me. I'm not sure if it's still in the beginning phase.


Whats it called... The honeymoon phase, then some limbo, and then i should kick in... Now my Swedish friend chopsuey really kickstarted his Nardil, but from what i read from users there can be some side effect...

Well... as you know by now


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

My misstake i saw he wrote me it took 9weeks..


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Starting to get insomnia, its not terrible but its annoying. I was hoping to avoid this side effect. I basically slept last night with my mind "on" if that makes sense. I don't even know if I slept at all.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

Now you're cooking! That's probably a good sign. Most everyone gets insomnia.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I found myself semi chatty today with my fiancé and family. Normally I hate talking and Don't enjoy listening to conversations but today I actually had a lot of interest.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

So question about insomnia. So far the only two meds I can think of to help sleep is unisom and melatonin. Is there any other OTC meds that I can use in my arsenal to help me sleep?

Eventually if it gets bad enough I would get an anti psych low dose to help me sleep.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Maybe that Valerian herb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Or maybe not

Valerian root should not be taken if you are pregnant or nursing, if you suffer from liver disease, or if you are taking monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs).


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Dammit now i got the itch, all over, feels like maybe "blackheads", ive ordered alot of supplements, must be some kind of binding agent or such...

So yeah been taken some of that Antihistamine...It only works for about 3days for sleep.

But it's Multivit/mineral, B-Complex, Vit-E, Vid-D3, Magnesium, Zinc, Iron, Resorb(bind water from the alcohol) And damn omega-3 (i get oily skin from it)
Of course i don't have the energy to exclude them, and try one at a time. Unless this continue that is...:mum

Had a "kebabpizza" for dinner maybe it's it, nahh heck, feels like i got lies all over or so... Damn that dog of mine!!!! And the clock is 04:30 in Sweden trying to sleep... Damn the itching, well atleast no itching in the Throat...

Later dude!!!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hahaha sorry man! It's bad luck. Thank god my itchiness went away. At least I can say I got a rare side effect. Ugh I had a panic attack today because I took a multivitamin and freaked out. Heart rate shot up to 130. I blame it on the coffee I had this morning because it's making me feel wired like crazy. I can't calm down today.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I can't have coffee. This morning my heart rate shot up to 130-150. This evening I had about half of what I had this morning and my heart rate is high probably 110. It's causing anxiety too. Sucks that I'm sensitive to coffee. I don't understand it though because I had a cup of coffee Friday and was fine but the ice coffee I got today is causing problems.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Does anyone notice that you feel good after taking your dose? Is this the normal effect nardil has? Or does nardil work more consistently without taking the first dose?


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Does anyone notice that you feel good after taking your dose? Is this the normal effect nardil has? Or does nardil work more consistently without taking the first dose?


At 60mg and lower i took all my pills at once for a year and never felt a rush or anything from it (i know some members say they do). :no


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hmmm, well does nardil work for you?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I feel great! Nardil is amazing!!! Its changed my life so far and each day gets better and better!! Anxiety is none existant and depression is going away. I feel motivated to get things done and I love learning now. Before nardil I couldn't even pay attention to tasks, now I love listening and learn so much more quickly. I will have to post a full review when nardil is more stable in my system. I love life now!!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

PS - anyone know if melatonin is contradicted with nardil?

I also want to know about benedryl too. I heard you can't take it with nardil. Does benedryl effect unisoms tolerance?


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

melatonin is very safe with nardil. I advise to stick to a lower dose as previous doses according to new research were too high. Glad nardil is working for you, I have increased the dose to 75mg for a few days to see if this helps, not feeling anything yet


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I can't have coffee. This morning my heart rate shot up to 130-150. This evening I had about half of what I had this morning and my heart rate is high probably 110. It's causing anxiety too. Sucks that I'm sensitive to coffee. I don't understand it though because I had a cup of coffee Friday and was fine but the ice coffee I got today is causing problems.


I have found that my heartrate change depending on what position im in, BP also...
Lying BP rasis,pulse lowers
Sitting its well u get the idea
Standing BP is lowest but my pulse raises.

Just a thought. Also i could be how close to the pill you drink it and test.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I don't think its body position because my heart throbs and beats really fast. Its almost like hypertensive crisis without the headache. I can drink caffeinated soda though and my heart doesn't throb, but it does increase quite a bit.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> PS - anyone know if melatonin is contradicted with nardil?
> 
> I also want to know about benedryl too. I heard you can't take it with nardil. Does benedryl effect unisoms tolerance?


Checked Ken Gillmans drug writing on druginteraction... The antihistamines Brompheniramine and chlorphinramine because they have a weak but possible significante SRI Potency. All other antihistamines are safe.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Benedryl is a SERT inhibitor, so thats why its probably contradicted.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

The affinity for SERT is so low on diphenhydramine (and even chlorpheniramine), that it is unlikely to cause issues. You would notice dysphoric anticholinergic effects long before. At this point I avoid chlorpheniramine anyway since there are lots of other options out there for the sniffles. I wish hydroxyzine was OTC.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Ugh I don't understand it. Why does nardil start to wear off towards the end of the day? I take 30mg in the morning and 15mg 2 hrs later, then 15mg in the afternoon.

My mood is way better in the day but I get really grumpy in the late afternoon. 

Does anyone know why this is happening?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Kinda same with Parnate, u get a crash in afternoon"ish" doesnt help if you take a second dose 1.5hour before or so,


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

For some reason Atarax/hydroxyzin is listed as "interactions" in The Swedish pharmacy texbook/ dr.s bible
"should be avoided while threatment with MAOi", no mentions why.

And it's like the only Antihistamine i found that says that in the textbook... I should send them an Email and ask for a reference for the statement.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Nardil has to get better right? I mean I've only been on it for 3.5 weeks and I still have to hit the 4-6 week margin right?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Nardil has to get better right? I mean I've only been on it for 3.5 weeks and I still have to hit the 4-6 week margin right?


Goal is atleast 80%mao inhibithed 90% they talked about in the report. Hang in there and give it a real go.60-90mg, and the more MAO that gets inhibithed, the better effect...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Does that mean I'm inhibited 80%? What about the peeps that respond 6-8weeks later


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Does that mean I'm inhibited 80%? What about the peeps that respond 6-8weeks later


Probably raise dose to slow, then you also have something called COMT, kinda like MAO, so don't drink to much green tea. But that also different from person to person. Like that DNA test i did, my brother also did it and well, MAO was "flagged" for him and "COMT" so he is buying more supplement then me now...

So yeah just go easy on it some week. 60mg is an "normal" dose so to say, if it don't work raise...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Is hypotension a sign of reached maoi inhibition? I don't have bad hypotension yet.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Is hypotension a sign of reached maoi inhibition? I don't have bad hypotension yet.


Yes, but make sure you don't measure to close to taking the pill.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

Watertouch,
Do you know if MAOIs influence COMT in any way?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Just curiouse, since I respond greatly by taking doses throughout the day and crash in afternoon, I would like a smoother response. I looked into enteric coating my nardil pills.

So question is, Do regular veg capsule gels count as enteric coated pills? Or is enteric coated gel capsules specially made?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Caedmon said:


> Watertouch,
> Do you know if MAOIs influence COMT in any way?


Naa did some search on pubmed, mostly Parkinsondisease articles came up,
However i checked that Stahl book Essential psychopharmacology and that L-Methylfolat/5-mthf "Silence COMT" and increase Dopamine.

And my DNA test showed bad levels on it, so i need that and more "methylation", But im on MAOi, so i hope it's neuroprotective.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hey! I figured out the coffee thing btw. I think I had mild hypertensive crisis from Dunkin doughnuts coffee. Must be their cream that they used in it. I had a coffee twice today at work without cream or sugar and had no problems.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Just curiouse, since I respond greatly by taking doses throughout the day and crash in afternoon, I would like a smoother response. I looked into enteric coating my nardil pills.
> 
> So question is, Do regular veg capsule gels count as enteric coated pills? Or is enteric coated gel capsules specially made?


The Gelatin capsuel will disolve in you stomach... But im not sure you can "delay" it... I can't say take a second dose of Parnate to stop the Afternoon crash... I don't even really think you can wait with the pills to avoid the crash... It messes with the sleepcycle.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Hey! I figured out the coffee thing btw. I think I had mild hypertensive crisis from Dunkin doughnuts coffee. Must be their cream that they used in it. I had a coffee twice today at work without cream or sugar and had no problems.


I need some to now, that new pill from GSK really made me tired... And i have to bath the dog tonight... :|


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Sleep cycle doesn't really change for me. I still get insomnia. It's not terrible insomnia. I ordered enteric coated capsules from:


100 enteric effect acid-resistant capsules DRcaps size 00 size00 EU products
From an authorized Pfizer dealer. These should be safe right?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Sleep cycle doesn't really change for me. I still get insomnia. It's not terrible insomnia. I ordered enteric coated capsules from:
> 
> 100 enteric effect acid-resistant capsules DRcaps size 00 size00 EU products
> From an authorized Pfizer dealer. These should be safe right?


Well he got good feedback 99,7 %or so, ordered myself a bottle of Melatonin from Ebay yeasterday, for some reason it is classed as a pharmaceutical in Sweden and as a supplement, like in any other other EU country :mum


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Just ordered some bioperene as I heard it works good for some people.


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Hey you guys I forgot to post this when I first got my prescription LOL. My fiancée idea.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

toolband185 said:


> Hey you guys I forgot to post this when I first got my prescription LOL. My fiancée idea.
> View attachment 50826


And i though FAX machines were oldschool!!!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Does Lyrica or Benzos effect the efficacy of nardil?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Does Lyrica or Benzos effect the efficacy of nardil?


Well the effect could of the GABA meds could get somewhat enhenced since GABA-T gets inhibithed.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Sweet with the "afternoon" fatiuge with the Parnate... I fell asleep att like 11, with construction workers, working and running around... Its cool that the anxiety isn't that severe so i can fall asleep... But it messes with my controladdiction... Whats the expression "it's like a coin, it has two sides"...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

That's good! I took unisom for day 3 now and a little tolerance has been built, supplemented with melatonin. Full nights sleep is great!

On a side not nardil is very weird to me. I wake up with a little more anxiety than usual, I'd say about 60% anxiety, then as my morning dose kicks In three hours later I start to feel relief, by my second dose I feel really good, depression is gone and anxiety is lowered to about 75%. I stopped the evening crash by dosing later in afternoon. Anxiety creeps back a little bit by night time. Is this my metabolism? I'm thinking enteric coated pills would help. I probably need to dose my first pills early in the am like before I wake up.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> That's good! I took unisom for day 3 now and a little tolerance has been built, supplemented with melatonin. Full nights sleep is great!
> 
> On a side not nardil is very weird to me. I wake up with a little more anxiety than usual, I'd say about 60% anxiety, then as my morning dose kicks In three hours later I start to feel relief, by my second dose I feel really good, depression is gone and anxiety is lowered to about 75%. I stopped the evening crash by dosing later in afternoon. Anxiety creeps back a little bit by night time. Is this my metabolism? I'm thinking enteric coated pills would help. I probably need to dose my first pills early in the am like before I wake up.


I think it will be better when you get higher in dose and more MAO is destroyed...But PEA is somewhat stimulating so it might make it difficult to sleep with the new capsuel, but hey..why not try...

Yeah one builds tollerance to Antihistamines, the work for like 3day for me, and they often have anticholinergic/musicrin side effect that last the day after...
My Dr is not to keen on asking for licens to import meds, but the TCA Doxepin in verry low dose, is clean and mostly has Antihistamine effect without the choll...stuff i mentioned...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

True. I plan to jumo to 75mg eventually, maybe in two weeks. I'd like to see what happens with the 60mg. 

I had an awesome day today. I love nardil. Its saving my life!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Can some one explain why a low dose antipsychotic doesn't effect depression like serotonin or dopamine? 

I'm afraid that if I get a antipsychotic for sleep that it will make my anxiety worst or depression worst.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Can some one explain why a low dose antipsychotic doesn't effect depression like serotonin or dopamine?
> 
> I'm afraid that if I get a antipsychotic for sleep that it will make my anxiety worst or depression worst.


Well if you thinking about Seroquel/quetiapine it should more be classed as an antihistamine, its effect is about 20% on the Dopamine and overdosing does not look like OD on AAP... So why they fight to have it classed as an AAP is weird...

Often lowdose of atypicalantipsychotics actually raise Dopamine output.
Thats kinda why the are called atypical, and are sometime reffered to as DPA(D2 partial agonism) the AAP drug Abilify is a good exampel of this.
*
*


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks watertouch


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Sure but it was abit short i like just woke up and there were like 50pages to read... Some antipsychotics affect serotonin receptors, Abilify 5HT2C, sulpride and Amisulpride 5HT7

Got some links and a book is can send you if Antipsychotics interest you, or maybe Serouquel


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

barry1685 said:


> Can some one explain why a low dose antipsychotic doesn't effect depression like serotonin or dopamine?
> 
> I'm afraid that if I get a antipsychotic for sleep that it will make my anxiety worst or depression worst.


This is not my favorite explanation in the world but it's what I could find before getting dressed for work:
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/01/treating_insomnia_with_less.html

Basically the dose determines what it does, as well as how strongly. This has to do with the shape of the molecule I think...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks guys! You guys are the best. I wouldn't have started nardil without everyone's support.

By the way I highly recommend bioperine to better adsorb your medicine. So far it works extremely well for me. Could be placebo but I will report more after I have a longer trial.

So far after taking my morning dose and later morning dose with bioperine it has a significant effect on nardils effectiveness for me.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I have a question about bioperine and enteric coated capsules.

I am assuming you can't take the two together because enteric coated capsules would be absorbed slowly in my system, where as in order for bioperine to work, the nardil would be needed in the stomach immediately?

Am I correct?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I have a question about bioperine and enteric coated capsules.
> 
> I am assuming you can't take the two together because enteric coated capsules would be absorbed slowly in my system, where as in order for bioperine to work, the nardil would be needed in the stomach immediately?
> 
> Am I correct?


question is why it works, i see Piperine is the main ingrediense, it effect CYP3A4 (good if wanna save benzo)
How long you been on it? maybe it "raises" your Nardil dose, otherwise it seems to have some good effect

Piperine has shown 'anti-depression like activity', and cognitive enhancing effects in rats.[23]
Piperine has shown anti-inflammatory and anti-arthritic effects in human interleukin-1beta-stimulated fibroblast-like synoviocytes and in rat arthritis models.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hmm. Thanks water touch! It doesn't raise serotonin right? Eek! 

Why is nardil so weird for me. Nardil kicks in about 3 he's later after my first dose. I have some social anxiety when I wake up. But as the first dose kicks in I feel normal for the day. Should I take a dose at 3 am so by the the time I wake up it should kick in?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

hmm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21192146
"Phenelzine has no reported interactions, but, like isoniazid, weakly and irreversibly inhibits CYP 450 2C19 and 3A4 in vitro"

Now its weak, but guess you took me upp on the "raising" the dose..
Just teasing, you seem to do welll on it anyway.

But hmm, maybe could be something for me so i can keep my Benzo amount down, (always good to have a reserve stash)

http://www.livestrong.com/article/534594-benefits-of-using-bioperine/

It does however seem like an intressting supplement!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Hmm. Thanks water touch! It doesn't raise serotonin right? Eek!
> 
> Why is nardil so weird for me. Nardil kicks in about 3 he's later after my first dose. I have some social anxiety when I wake up. But as the first dose kicks in I feel normal for the day. Should I take a dose at 3 am so by the the time I wake up it should kick in?


Yes Serotonin and Dopamin... Good you didn't raise the dose of Nardil!
But it's also interessting, do you feel better on it?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Hmm. Thanks water touch! It doesn't raise serotonin right? Eek!
> 
> Why is nardil so weird for me. Nardil kicks in about 3 he's later after my first dose. I have some social anxiety when I wake up. But as the first dose kicks in I feel normal for the day. Should I take a dose at 3 am so by the the time I wake up it should kick in?


Have them new capsuels arrived yeat? maybe take it right before bedtime. The whole stomach intestant movement slowes down at night so it could work...


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

I remember ordering a can of CRAZE, a training supplement (more strenght,endurence) and such,It's banned now apperently it contained Methamphetamine, but i read the label and it had like 3 different types of TYRAMIN! i had the fortune to catch that, so i could take i breake from my Parnate and try it...

Tyramine is apperently added in some training supps boosters to raise BP and release som adrenalin on "normal" persons. On an MAOi, man it was close.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

The capsules haven't arrived. Do you know how long it would take to be absorbed?

About the bioperine - Should I be worried about increase in serotonin? Thanks for the heads up about it. Should I pay attention to serotonin syndrome symptoms?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I forgot to mention. I got serquol last night and took 25mg. I slept like a baby with no morning fatigue. Woohoo sleeping is awesome now! I now have an arsenal of meds to take at night.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> The capsules haven't arrived. Do you know how long it would take to be absorbed?
> 
> About the bioperine - Should I be worried about increase in serotonin? Thanks for the heads up about it. Should I pay attention to serotonin syndrome symptoms?


No i was looking forward for you trying them ... In case of SS stop all meds, I could try search the medicine databases i have access to and see if i can find out how much Peperin effects CYP3A4, and how much Nardil needs it to be broken down, if you want?

Serquel, seroquel/quetepin.. hate the name i always spells it wrong, well it's more like the Antihistamine Prometazine or Propiomazine. I could agree to try Seroquel it kinda blocks like 20%of Dopamine(like the antihistamines i mentioned), But other like "Zyprexa for anxiety" ehh it can really mess one up..


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

The dose I'm on of serquol blocks that much dopamine in the low dose i'm on? Even with the short half life of 7hrs?

If you have time to look up bioperene that would be great! BTW if you do consider to take bioperine DO NOT take it with food. Apparently if you take food with bioperene you risk higher amounts of tyramine reactions. Be very careful with spacing out dosing of meds. I take bioperene 30mins before my nardil dose. Then I take nardil. I dont eat anything unless its an hr or so after the bioperene dose.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

hmm fun it's used in dietproducts...Ended upp on a bodybuilding forum... But they most likely take alot higher doses.
It seems to effect CYP3A and CYP2C19 so it could increase the effect on Nardil, allso in some studie it can release epinephrine, and increase thyroid hormone, but i think you would feel if it increased the Nardil effect dramaticly.
The FDA hade a lot of studies in their article and tried Inderal/propranolol, Tylenol and the AUC was higher on Inderal, so it increased the effect but Inderal is CYP2D6 so the Piperine seems to work all over the 450-system..

1. Kawada, T. et al. (1988). Some pungent principles of spices cause the adrenal medulla to secrete catecholamine in anesthetized rats. Proc. Soc. Exptal. Biol. Med. 188; 229-233.
2. Dora, K.A., Clark, M.G. (1994). Resiniferatoxin and piperine: Capsaicin-like stimulators of oxygen-uptake in the perfused rat hind-limb. Life Sci. 55(5); 389-397.
3. Tripathi, P. et al. (1989) Thyrogenic response of Piper nigrum. Fitoterapia:LX;

The FDA found it safe but i read nowere they were trying it on anyone on an MAO-inhibitor
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/food/ingredientspackaginglabeling/gras/noticeinventory/ucm362936.pdf


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Wow. Interesting. Well I must say that either I'm getting better or the bioperine is working really well. My doses seem to last longer the. Before. No crash whatsoever. I feel really good too. I haven't felt this amazing in my entire life. Almost feel like I took an adderall that works all day.

Hey, I'm really worried about the serquol, does it really block the dopamine by 20%? At a 25mg dose?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> The dose I'm on of serquol blocks that much dopamine in the low dose i'm on? Even with the short half life of 7hrs?


It might be lower, be glad. Antipsychotics shouldn't be used unless you really have to... The effect doesn't justify the side effects...

http://psychotropical.com/index.php/anti-psychotics
Scroll down half the page and the topic a bit bigger,black. Quetiapine same effect as Prometazine and Promizine.

receptors to a maximum of 60% at usual doses (usual maximum dose is cited as < 800 mg/day) (92) and then not for long since its half-life is only around 6 hrs! (but it is about *fifty times more potent at H1* receptors, which it swamps at that dose, hence the weight gain and sedation!). For most of the 24 hrs blockade at D2 is minimal, closer to 20%. It is difficult to imagine that has much effect on anything (even in overdose it shows no DA antagonism effects!).


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Wow. Interesting. Well I must say that either I'm getting better or the bioperine is working really well. My doses seem to last longer the. Before. No crash whatsoever. I feel really good too. I haven't felt this amazing in my entire life. Almost feel like I took an adderall that works all day.
> 
> Hey, I'm really worried about the serquol, does it really block the dopamine by 20%? At a 25mg dose?


how many days have you taken the piperine? I would almost keep doing it.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Technically two days.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

So I've been thinking about supplementing my regimen because of morning anxiety. I'm thinking about adding one of these meds. Although I didn't look to see if they interact:

Wellbutrin
PEA
Gabitril
Benzo
Lyrica - although I hate the effects takes a while to kick in.

Any other ideas?


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Hey guys, I'm starting to experience the side effects. Insomnia and water retention. I drinking nothing but water and still using the calorie counter and keeping what I eat under control at 1500 cal a day. I did go to a chinese restaurant the other day with mom and made sure I watched what I ate but I have been bloated ever since that days of eating rice and sweet and sour chicken. I have been working out doing crunches and situps. 

For sleep I am using 3 mg of melotian and 25mg of unisom. I go to sleep but find myself waking up 2-3 hours after. 

What are your guys recommendations. I'm glad to hear you two are doing good


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hey toolband!! Good to see you. Was wondering what you've been up to. I take unisom too but I suggest you get serquol in low dose 25-50mg for sleep and alternate the two. Also try benzos for sleep. I don't take benzos for sleep because I'd rather save them for emergencies. I'm doing fantastic and loving life!


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Hey toolband!! Good to see you. Was wondering what you've been up to. I take unisom too but I suggest you get serquol in low dose 25-50mg for sleep and alternate the two. Also try benzos for sleep. I don't take benzos for sleep because I'd rather save them for emergencies. I'm doing fantastic and loving life!


I'm so happy to hear you are doing good Barry! That's really awesome to hear and keeps my hopes up on continuing Nardil. I'm on my 3rd week of taking it and 1 week on 60mg.

Whats your schedule like taking Nardil? I see you are taking a supplement bioperine ? Do you sleep 8 hours ? What are you eating every day?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hey dude. I'm eating stuff without cheese and I don't eat stuff that I don't know what's in it. I sleep fine with sleep aids. I sleep a good 7-8 hrs a night. Bioperine is awesome I think and works really well. Could be placebo but I feel like it makes my doses last. I take 30mg at 7am, 15 at 11am and 15 at 3. The anti anxiety kicks in around 9-10 and lasts basically all day. I have social anxiety before 9 am before my dose kicks in. It's not terrible but it's annoying


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Alright thanks man. I just emailed me doctor and I will let you know what my doctor prescribes for sleep. I wanted to tell him to just give me Serqueol but left it up for him to decide. (Didn't want to sound to demanding) 

I will try and get a hold of me some of that bioperine today when I go to the mall they have a pretty nice vitamin shop there. 

I'm going to keep away from MSG and foods with salt in them. I have seen that b6, asparagus and cucumbers can help with water retention. I have it all in my gut and it looks gross!! 

Keep ya posted. Thanks brother.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Be careful buying bioperine from vitamin store. Make sure it's the ONLY ingredient. Make sure you take it 45 mins before nardil dose and don't take any food or other meds before or after about 1.5 hrs. Reply back with questions. Tyramine intake is worst when you initially take bioperine so be careful! Good luck!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I want to say nardil is amazing and changed my life completely, I'm a new person. Today I went to a social event with people I didn't even know. I had zero anxiety and socialized fine! It's amazing to feel what it's like to have no anxiety and to be normal for once into life. I love nardil!!!!


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## 0707129r (Apr 22, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I want to say nardil is amazing and changed my life completely, I'm a new person. Today I went to a social event with people I didn't even know. I had zero anxiety and socialized fine! It's amazing to feel what it's like to have no anxiety and to be normal for once into life. I love nardil!!!!


what's your dose and how long you been on nardil?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

60mg and 4 week and 2 days.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

On a side note I almost fainted last night. I went out for a run and came back and laid down. Three hours later I got up and started getting dark vision and quickly went into a crouch position which made it go away but as soon as I got back up it came back. I quickly ran to the bed lol making crouch positions all the way there. I'm fine now but be careful after laying down after exercising, it seems to make hypotension worst.


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> On a side note I almost fainted last night. I went out for a run and came back and laid down. Three hours later I got up and started getting dark vision and quickly went into a crouch position which made it go away but as soon as I got back up it came back. I quickly ran to the bed lol making crouch positions all the way there. I'm fine now but be careful after laying down after exercising, it seems to make hypotension worst.


Man I'm sorry to hear that, that sounds crazy!

Could you or someone please tell me what i can do about about this bloating I'm currently having. I drink massive amounts of water and don't go past my calories of 1500 a day and I wake up with man titties and stomach bulging out.

I don't want to take to much of vitamin b6 cause I'm afraid that will mess with the Nardil to become affective. I'm on my 23rd day and 8th day on 60 mg. I'm really depressed and can't sleep worry about rather I will continue to grow like a blimp and nardil not work.

I'm glad that things are working out for you minus the latest episode that you had.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hey try not to worry. Nardil worked okay for week 3 and by week 4 it kicked in. I experienced hypomania last sunday, which was beginning of week 3. I was really energetic and couldn't stop doing stuff. I had some euphoria but it went away.

Remember you still have 6-8 weeks. It could take to kick in longer for you. I have a fast metabolism so that is why it kicked in faster for me (i think).

About the b6, I am in the same boat as you, I just take mine every other day. I suppose its better to do this than to take it every day.

I take:

Bioperine 10mg before every dose 30 mins before
Milk thistle: good for liver 
B6 every other day
Basic vitamins
unisom for sleep every other day
seroqoul every other day for sleep


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

toolband185 said:


> Man I'm sorry to hear that, that sounds crazy!
> 
> Could you or someone please tell me what i can do about about this bloating I'm currently having. I drink massive amounts of water and don't go past my calories of 1500 a day and I wake up with man titties and stomach bulging out.
> 
> ...


Swedish summerys, google translate should work....

https://www.pfizerfarmaci.se/c/docu...9a7-11c0-42a5-acc2-8db8235c1389&groupId=10339

"
Viktökning kan bero på aptitökning, förändrad meta-
bolism och ödem. De senare anses vara betingade av en
ökad insöndring av ADH och symtombilden sammanfal-
ler med den vid SIADH med bland annat hyponatremi.
Diuretica är härvid kontraindicerade och verkningslösa."

Weight increase could be because apitate, enhenche metabolism, waterstorage, the later is assoiateted with ADH an the symtomatic pictrure occurs with them with SIADH amongs other Hypontremi Diuretuca, And there by contraicutive is USELESS!.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Barry Play around with the B6... As you probably googled it plays a role in Serotonin and Melatonin...

Some feel more enegirzed if taken during the day,
Other get some tired, thus at night... Alltough it can increase your dreaming... Witch should be about 0 by now.. MAOi takes that away from one...


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Hey try not to worry. Nardil worked okay for week 3 and by week 4 it kicked in. I experienced hypomania last sunday, which was beginning of week 3. I was really energetic and couldn't stop doing stuff. I had some euphoria but it went away.
> 
> Remember you still have 6-8 weeks. It could take to kick in longer for you. I have a fast metabolism so that is why it kicked in faster for me (i think).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply Barry. I'll follow that schedule as well. I haven't even experienced the euphoria yet. So i will give it more time. I took the unisom a 11 yesterday and slept until 2 in the morning. I'm just not getting enough sleep.



watertouch said:


> Swedish summerys, google translate should work....
> 
> https://www.pfizerfarmaci.se/c/docu...9a7-11c0-42a5-acc2-8db8235c1389&groupId=10339
> 
> ...


Hey watertouch, so basically just sticking to working out and drinking a lot of water would be the best approach at stopping the water retention ? The diuretics are just garbage ?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Ohh and i had yeasterday my first big step on Parnate! i order pizza, and opend, and that something i would never do before...

Sober, no BZ, no betablockers.... I didn't even have expetacion anxiity (soon he will be here) i was just cool and watch my tvshow on tv...


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

watertouch could metformin help ?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

toolband185 said:


> Thanks for the reply Barry. I'll follow that schedule as well. I haven't even experienced the euphoria yet. So i will give it more time. I took the unisom a 11 yesterday and slept until 2 in the morning. I'm just not getting enough sleep.
> 
> Hey watertouch, so basically just sticking to working out and drinking a lot of water would be the best approach at stopping the water retention ? The diuretics are just garbage ?


Well the Dr. who made a summary on MAOi, says that... But i know from a thread i think mr.T made that water retention can happen... I would probably try some... I get "moonface" from Creatine, a muscle supplement, but thats just in periods... But yeah i can realate to you...
How is your BP and such, maybe cut Sodium out of your diet.

It's difficult, feel good but blooted, feel like crap and not blooted... Maybe Parnate and Benzo... I'd try a diuretic tho...


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

toolband185 said:


> watertouch could metformin help ?


I am not familuar with diuretics so, sorry no idea..(my bodybuilding days are over). But i would try some i got blooted... I see no real contraindications... It would be Bloodpreassure maybe...


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

watertouch said:


> Well the Dr. who made a summary on MAOi, says that... But i know from a thread i think mr.T made that water retention can happen... I would probably try some... I get "moonface" from Creatine, a muscle supplement, but thats just in periods... But yeah i can realate to you...
> How is your BP and such, maybe cut Sodium out of your diet.
> 
> It's difficult, feel good but blooted, feel like crap and not blooted... Maybe Parnate and Benzo... I'd try a diuretic tho...


Alright I will pick up a diuretic tomorrow and cut all those salted fries out of my diet as well as the barbeque chips  Thanks a lot man.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

toolband185 said:


> Alright I will pick up a diuretic tomorrow and cut all those salted fries out of my diet as well as the barbeque chips  Thanks a lot man.


Just watch that BP hehe...


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

It should effect much... It's the thicknes of blood and stuff, Like fishoil Omega-3 it has a thinning effect, but lots of posetive effects...

I noticed this while picking my nose the other day, noosebleed. Sodium kinds of Thinken it, but the whole salt/sodium isnt that much true...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Watch out for diarrhea. It can force the nardil out pretty fast. I sometimes get it and just be aware of it I'd take nardil after a while if you get it.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Watch out for diarrhea. It can force the nardil out pretty fast. I sometimes get it and just be aware of it I'd take nardil after a while if you get it.


It's and old joke "nock nock- Are you done sone?!,. No im constipated..:- Well i got the runs!... well..YOU SHOULD FEEL DAMN LUCKY!!!""


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Raport, Nardil+Seroquel for insomnia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16478812
*CONCLUSIONS: *

This case illustrates that low-dose quetiapine may be an alternative treatment for phenelzine-associated insomnia. Further case reports are needed to establish the safety and effectiveness of combining these agents


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

That was supposed to be Possetive... But it linked to other articles, Since we are somewhat friends, i feel i have to post them to... But their conclusion are "unsure" and since we established that its more an Antihistamine rather then an AAP(well Dr Gillman did), i think you should/could continue on it...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23343742

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22510671


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

I can't thank you enough you guys. I contacted my doctor about the Seroquel and told him that he knows that I do a lot of research on medicine and social anxiety and requested that try Seroquel at 25 mg. 

Wish you brothers a good day and in my prayers. 

Shawn


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks watertouch! I'll read that later when I have time. I do notice that the next day after taking seroquel I am less happy and more anxiety. Maybe it's seroquel? I have only taken it a few times. I might save it for serious sleeping help. But I notice that if I go for a run I get tired more and sleep better. I'm going to try running tonight and will report back to see if I can go the night without sleep aids.

Hypotension is bad. I felt really dizzy today getting out of the car fast and climbing steep hills. I had to crouch a few times just make the dizziness go away. I started getting fuzzy, dark vision. I might try salt tabs, coffee helps with hypotension. I also didn't drink much water today.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Barry.
Nae it could be, i take the antihistamin Alimizine for sleep n some other, it can have effects that last the next day "hangover",

Hypotension...Well you see how fun i had rising up going to the bathroom...  Strangely since i switch brand of the Parnate it has dissapered.:sus
I search on it before but stoped since my new Parnate, Think it is the adrenerg A1 receptor.

Wich raise a question, does this mean the old was "better" or is this version better...
I did order the pizza, i haven't done that for well 2years maybe...(now i did turn in a "can" to the pharmacy for analyze, never heard back from them)
My daily thoughts of suicide dissapered on both of them...


Thanks Shawn! Best wishes on the new med!!!/Alex


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I think you should switch back to the other parnate. I think hypotension is a good sign of Mao inhibition.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I think you should switch back to the other parnate. I think hypotension is a good sign of Mao inhibition.


Yeah i need to check that, i think i have lower BP, but the "orthostatic BP" is gone... I had this a couple of days ago 118/73 p65 so it is lowered... Its normally like 142/87 or so...

Well im sitting here with some 600pills or so. So i might as well give it a try...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I found an interesting read on milkthistle. Not only does it protect and rebuild the liver. It helps increase concentrations of some meds:

But now it appears that these and possibly other compounds in milk thistle can have other effects.

Researchers at the University of Pittsburgh have suspected that milk thistle can slow down or reduce the activity of enzymes in the liver.

What does this have to do with HIV? you might ask.

Well, enzymes in the liver break down many of the substances that we eat and drink, including medications.

If the activity of these enzymes are reduced, then drugs remain in the blood longer than they otherwise might.

This could lead to having higher-than-expected levels of drugs in the body, causing side effects or intensifying already-existing side effects.

Indeed, in recent experiments using milk thistle and human liver cells, the researchers found that relatively small concentrations of milk thistle did significantly slow down the activity of the liver enzyme CYP3A4 by 50% to 100%.

Many medications taken by people with HIV/AIDS (PHAs) - such as protease inhibitors and non-nukes - are processed by this liver enzyme.

If milk thistle is taken by someone using protease inhibitors or non-nukes, it has the potential to raise levels of these drugs, causing unpleasant or even dangerous side effects.

Below is a short list of some other medications that are processed through the CYP3A4 enzyme.

Levels of these medications may increase if taken by people who are also using milk thistle. This list is not exhaustive:

methadone

heart drugs - Tambocor (flecainide), Rythmol (propafenone)

antibiotics - erythromycin, rifampin

anti-seizure drugs - carbamazepine (Tegretol)

antidepressants - St. John's wort, Zyban/Wellbutrin (bupropion), Paxil (paroxetine), Prozac (fluoxetine), Luvox (fluvoxetine) Serzone (nefazodone), Zoloft (sertraline), Effexor (venlafaxine)

antihistamines - Hismanal (astemizole), Seldane (terfenadine)

antifungals - itraconazole (Sporanox), Ketoconazole (Nizoral)

gastrointestinal motility agents - Prepulsid (Cisapride)

ergot drugs - Ergonovine, Ergomar (ergotamine)

anti-psychotics - Clozaril (clozapine), Orap (pimozide)

sedatives/sleeping pills - Ambien (zolpidem), Halcion (triazolam), Versed (midazolam)

lipid-lowering drugs (statins) - Lescol (fluvastatin), Mevacor (lovastatin), Pravachol (pravastatin) and Zocor (simvastatin), Baycol (cerivastatin)


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Yeah the CYP3A4 thats for Benzo, sounds like something for me...


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## meffect (Oct 30, 2012)

watertouch said:


> Raport, Nardil+Seroquel for insomnia
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16478812
> *CONCLUSIONS: *
> 
> This case illustrates that low-dose quetiapine may be an alternative treatment for phenelzine-associated insomnia. Further case reports are needed to establish the safety and effectiveness of combining these agents


i seem to get really bad orthostatic hypotension from nardil-seroquel combo. also seroquel builds tolerance really fast...at least it did for me


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Barry you bought the milkthistle from iherb.com or?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Milk thistle was purchased from Rite Aid - a store in the US.

Question about milkthistle though, since milkthistle cleanses the liver, wouldn't it remove nardil from your system quickly after I take nardil?

Would it make more sense to take the milkthistle at night since nardil is out of my liver by then?

I had really bad hypotension this week. I almost passed out climbing up hills and getting out of car for a long period. Crouching fixes everything - it's kinda fun lol.

BTW DO NOT TAKE SEROQUEL FOR SLEEP! My mistake for encouraging people to take it for sleep. The next day after taking seroqoul my social anxiety is a little worst and my mood plummets. I lose interest in socializing! So just a warning to those taking seroquel to be aware of this.

Plus watertouch references a few studies done on the safety of low dose seroquel. Seroquel may be unsafe to use even in low doses.

Lastly I found that running before I go to bed helps initiate sleep. You need to really tire yourself out. I sleep naturally the other night and only woke up 3 times but quickly went back to sleep.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I wanted to also mention that I upped my dose of bioperine to 20mg for every nardil dose. I take 60mg a day of bioperine. I will report if this change works better.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Sorry, I have another question. Is benedryl cross tolerant to unisom? I'd like to add benedryl but it doesn't make sense to add it if it increases my tolerance to unisom.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Are there any safe GABAergic supplements I could take? Not agonists preferably, just something to maybe help glutamate or GABA increase.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Sorry, I have another question. Is benedryl cross tolerant to unisom? I'd like to add benedryl but it doesn't make sense to add it if it increases my tolerance to unisom.


Probably abit, the probably breaks down by the same CYP enzyme so they potentiete eachother, affect the histamine 1 receptor, anticholinergic and musicrin side effects... But tolleranceto antihistamine is commen, they work for sleep for like 3 days for me. You could most likely just raise the dose...


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

You could cycle a bunch, i dont know how severe you have it but like unisom 2days,Melatonin 2days, a Z drug or benzo 2days.

Magnesium like 400mg can also help to wind down before bed...


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Are there any safe GABAergic supplements I could take? Not agonists preferably, just something to maybe help glutamate or GABA increase.


Well im kinda testing L-Theanine but i read a report it could raise Serotonin, so i can't recommend it. hehe maybe if nothing happens to me. I take Vyvanse also during the weekdays, it effects Serotonin, but im gonna try the L-Theanine on Saturday n Sunday,... Well see how that goes, in worst case i report from the ER. :clap


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Lmao. We'll let me know! I think the serotonin effect is negligible. If it worked on serotonin more people would praise it for depression like St. John's wort.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Watertouch, did you see my milkthistle question? What do you think about it?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Lmao. We'll let me know! I think the serotonin effect is negligible. If it worked on serotonin more people would praise it for depression like St. John's wort.


yeah although its requirs a higher dose to be sedating, at normal i dont think the gaba-a1 is effected. And my brain kinda dont have A1 i dont get tired from benzo, you cant roofie me at club...

Ohh yeah that phenibut stuff you can add to the "cycel"


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Watertouch, did you see my milkthistle question? What do you think about it?


No just the CYP3A4 but i check my book anabolic steroids i think its mentioned there...


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Damn crappy book worse then Prof stahl's prescribers guide...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25028567
Exposure to milk thistle extract produced no significant influence on CYP1A2, CYP2C9, CYP2D6, or CYP3A4/5 activities.

So ehh no it doesnt effects most medicin, either potentiat them or break them down faster...

But your article mention CYP3A4 so im gonna look a little more, but hell with my drinking these days so im need to get me some


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Finaly a study on healthy humans..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15536458


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Saawweeet! Thanks watertouch


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

To bump to 75mg, that is the question....

60mg works wonderful but I get more anxiety in the morning and late afternoon. I am thinking about taking 30mg in morning, 15mg at 11am, and 30mg at 2pm.

What do y'all think?

Also curious about people going to 105mg or 120mg.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> To bump to 75mg, that is the question....
> 
> 60mg works wonderful but I get more anxiety in the morning and late afternoon. I am thinking about taking 30mg in morning, 15mg at 11am, and 30mg at 2pm.
> 
> ...


I think you already thinking of increasing it. Well more mao-i =more serotnin more inhibition of GABA-T= more GABA...Hopefully no morning anxiety, but it take like 2 weeks if you wanna back down for the MAO to come back...

Hmm on that high dose i think people "running" on the PEA....


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

*Sleeeeeeeeeep*

Insomnia is killing me!!! I go to sleep and my magic number is 2 AM, I'm up... I've tried Melatonian, Unisom, Ambien and last night I got 6 hours of sleep on RESTORIL    I NEED MORE SLEEEEEEEEP


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Mine used to be 03:17, strangely i dont have that problem anymore. 6hours what a luxery, ive been sleeping for 3-4 hours for like 3months... Bur thats those damn construction workers.
Maybe take that Restoril and when/if you wake up you take an ambien.


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

I like the way you think watertouch  Cheers!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Toolband. My insomnia isn't bad on week 5. Week 4 I could barely sleep. Just make it through. But in a way I never had to take as much sleeping meds as you on week 4.

Watertouch. The pea effect is very strong on 75mg. Upped my dose last night and felt the pea effect very strongly. Too much energy and felt like I was on crack! Lol


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Im gonna have to try that Nardil stuff, start slimming down on like tuesday The workers say its will be ready on Monday next week...., gonna be so nice not sleeping like 3-4hours but like 8. And also stop the whole GAD worrying, like today, Parnate crash, its now 14:30 and i have no cloue if the will be back..They drop in here and there but never later then 16.00...

But yeah pants are off!!!

hehe would be weird losing say 40pounds, and then like gain it on the Nardil!
But as long as its water weight it would go away fas if one stops the Nardil.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I lost 7 pounds on nardil, not sure how people gain weight in nardil. Nardil energizes me I get no sedations. Once again, not sure how people react differently . Last night when I jumped 15mg I had no anxiety at the mall. Was thinking about hitting on girls but I'm engaged was telling my friend how to hit on girls haha. I never could give that advice.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Im gonna meet a friend soon i haven't seen in like 2years or so... And show him "ground zero"... I can't picture myself doing this before the Parnate.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

That was somewhat nice,its cool when you have like friends, and even though it been a couple of years...Its like still the same when you meet them...


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

Barry - I'm so glad to hear that you are going to malls and getting out there being social. When you post and give updates it gives me a lot of hope that Nardil is going to kick and start working for me as well.

Sleeping only 4 hours can really take a toll on me but I'm trying to stay positive and push through like you said. I see that you are losing weight and man I envy you for this. Are you experiencing water weight or bloating? How much do you weigh? Did you counteract the constipation ? How is your sleeping going?

I seem to be experiencing these side effects since the 60mg : *INSOMNIA, BLOATING, CONSTIPATION AND CONSTANTLY RESEARCHING!!!

*


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

watertouch said:


> Im gonna meet a friend soon i haven't seen in like 2years or so... And show him "ground zero"... I can't picture myself doing this before the Parnate.


Ground Zero ? Metal Gear?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

toolband185 said:


> Ground Zero ? Metal Gear?


No hehe, the car that crashed in, check my page it a link to "my summer" its now taken 3months since the crash...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I don't get bloating but some from bioperine. Sleep is good. I slept 7 hrs last night with 1 melatonin. Constipation isn't bad, I poop everyday. I weighed 185 pre nardil, now I weigh 178. 

Keep going with nardil. I bet your the type that it kicks in one day at week 6-8.


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I don't get bloating but some from bioperine. Sleep is good. I slept 7 hrs last night with 1 melatonin. Constipation isn't bad, I poop everyday. I weighed 185 pre nardil, now I weigh 178.
> 
> Keep going with nardil. I bet your the type that it kicks in one day at week 6-8.


 I'm hoping so. Keep ya posted.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

"ground zero" was probably abit unsensetive from my side... Im in no terms feel that that what happen to my house, is even comparable.... It was just a dumb impression from me!


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## toolband185 (Aug 9, 2013)

watertouch said:


> "ground zero" was probably abit unsensetive from my side... Im in no terms feel that that what happen to my house, is even comparable.... It was just a dumb impression from me!


HEHE I'm feeling mania WOOOO YEAHHHHH LoVE love LOVING IT !!!!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

toolband185 said:


> HEHE I'm feeling mania WOOOO YEAHHHHH LoVE love LOVING IT !!!!


Today its been 3months and 2 days, yeasterday we finally got water in the kitchen...
But i get so frustrated and anxiety, the builder is like "we be there by 7o,clok". So i get up at 5:45 to be ready.. And then they don't show up untill like 11... So anoying, been sleeping 3-4 hours for 3months... Lived with my brother, walked and spend days at my grandmother to escape the noise or stuff...And then they don't even show up.

Now im like F-it... So i stay home with my dog and drink alkohol...
But hearing the a damn sawblade and a drillmachine for 9hours.. It feels like an eternety... Im exedurating, but yeah, if it sounds to much for the dog i guess ill be sitting in the forest for 9 hours.... :um


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I wanted to let you guys know of the dreaded sexual side effects I have. I didn't have sex for 1.5 months because of lack of interest, or either fapping. Last night I decided to have sex and my erection was weak at first but finally got it going. I couldn't ejaculate for the life of me, but it still felt good I guess:/

I ended up having a killer erection that lasted 15mins. Was getting paranoid about priapism and turned the shower on cold with my Frankenstein aimed at the shower head. I managed to get it down but DAMN!!!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I wanted to let you guys know of the dreaded sexual side effects I have. I didn't have sex for 1.5 months because of lack of interest, or either fapping. Last night I decided to have sex and my erection was weak at first but finally got it going. I couldn't ejaculate for the life of me, but it still felt good I guess:/
> 
> I ended up having a killer erection that lasted 15mins. Was getting paranoid about priapism and turned the shower on cold with my Frankenstein aimed at the shower head. I managed to get it down but DAMN!!!


Yeah i had that Priapism, its no fun. luckaly i cant get it up when drunk, so hahaha alcohol helped me...
Well yeah hugging and what you did is better then nothing, so...
But i wounder if you tock a day of fron Nardil, if that would work for you...

Its probably the whole GABA thing, you need Noradrenaline to get aroused and pop... a pill of Ritalin works for me... its fast working and you dont need to take it for several days to build up levels...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Did you get priapism on parnate?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Did you get priapism on parnate?


No it was on Paxil and that moodmed Lamictal... I kinda stoped the day after cold turkey...
But yeah i tried everthing a bunch of Valium to relax the muscle, so couldn't drive...Had my mother comming with alcohol... Yeah not my Finest hour!


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

I started nardil about 13 months ago and added lamictal about 6 months ago for a mild bipolar). I started nardil with 45mg for the first 3 months, went to 60mg for the next 3 months, and then saw no difference and decided to cut the tablets in half so took 3 1/2 (52mg) for about 5months before going to 60mg once again and now for the first time at 75m, (its been a month at 75mg)

I noticed that unlike before where increasing dose didn't help, now the increase to 75mg has made life much easier and reduced my anxiety to be functional. The downside of it of course a sudden weight gain of 10lbs , where the first 12 months i had only gained 5lbs on as high a dose of 60mg. Before starting nardil i was 175lbs and today i hit the scale around 190lbs. 

I do try to eat healthy and exercise a few times a week and still its very difficult to bring the weight down. I attribute this to water weight mostly but also my sweet tooth for chocolate, ice-cream and cake has gone up 3x folds. 

As for sleep, on every dose that i had tried it was impossible to get more than 2 hours ( if i didn't get any medication). The good news is that the sleeping part will get better guys. You are both lucky you get 4 hours of sleep, I had the worst case scenario on Nardil, for 10 months straight i got no longer than 1.5-2 hours max, unless i took ambien, klonopin, lunesta. I even tried Serequel, trazadone, and they didn't work and only remeron would help but i would get very anxious the next day. None of the antihistamines also worked and i tried at least 7 or 8 different ones including unisom. I did take my vitamins and minerals and did a lot of research into what to take but no luck.
It was horrible as i was trying not to get addicted to benzo's so couldn't take them every night. 

I used to take my nardil dose in the morning since it was suggested by many past users but still no sleep. I tried different times of the day from taking my dose at noon, evening, and even divided the dose through out the day but that didn't work. Finally decided to take all my dose at night (8pm) for 3 weeks as i was desperate and thought i will never sleep without meds. What do you know, just about shy of 3 weeks, i started getting about 5.5 hours of sleep, and to this day I am getting the same which is more than I can ask for.

Regarding the sexual side effects, it was pretty bad for the first 3 to 4 months and luckily i was single. Slowly it got better and the sides mostly went away and i started dating again without any problems  Once i hit 75mg a month ago i seem to have lost interest in sex and my girlfriend who is a good-looking and caring gal is very patient with me, but I still don't know if this side effect will go away like it did when i started nardil.

Overal i thought i share this with you guys incase you might have some concerns. I have been on many meds in the past, including lexapro (6 years) which did a decent job and then it pooped. It has been until recently where i have been diagnosed with some adhd/ocd/bipolarII , and nardil cannot help all 3 (even though it has helped a lot along lamictal). I also have provigil which i take on somedays and i become more focus and full of energy and do recommend it if you are fatigued. 

I don't know if i can stay on nardil long term as my anxiety is 3x worse than depression and my doc has suggested to switch to luvox which addresses ocd and is a ssri, but i'm too scared to come of nardil and try something new again


sorry if this took so long , hope there is some information in there that can help and i will be happy to talk about my experience if you have any questions. good luck


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Its friday, miday 12:11 right now but gonna have the friend over and chill on the backside with a beer or 2, while the constructionworker are here. it should be ok?'
I somehow feel, i wouldn't say intimidated. But kinda, or if they should feel that im watching every move they make, i can understand that it would feel frustrated for them if so were the case...

I like snuck down just now and quickly grabbed something to eat and went up... but yeah thats part of my symtompicture...
My friend however is like A1 personality or such ADHD and all... Hehe i kinda feel, after they met him, this will be done real fast! And he is not afraid of conflicts n worked with constructionworker, in worst case he confronts them how this have taken 3 months...

Crap im starting to get anxiety about it... This could get uggly...


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

need a damn betablocker stat!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

That sucks. You will be fine though, I know I'm the same way, I hate conflict.

Btw I'm having problems with nardils efficiency. It's still working but not too much for depression and some anxiety problems. I think bioperine is causing the nardil to not work good. I think the acid from the bioperine is causing nardil to not digest properly. I took my afternoon dose without bioperine and it's working a lot better. Stupid bioperine, should never have taken it.

It probably doesn't help too that I quit cigarettes. I am really irritable and don't feel like talking to people. Last few days when I was smoking it was a little better. But as soon as I started bioperine I've noticed a slow decline, in fact when I doubled my dose of bioperine it got worst! So no bioperine for now on. I will report if I get better, I won't be reporting for a week or two since I did so much damage to nardils efficiency for a few weeks.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Well thats sad to hear you were doing really good. Kick the bioperine!



I called my friend and cancelled... He was gonna see his son anyway so..
Almost felt releaft, or i did, almost had a panic attack...Because he would have confronted them,(they are like 22y) but then, when hes gone, i would feel really damn uncomfortable till the work is done.

And the contruction guy like have ADHD to, i heard him call IKEA and like screamed at them... would have been a trainwreck if he talked back to my friend. And i would have to hire a new crew.. uhh getting anxius just thinking about it.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Haha good thing he's not coming! You can relax now. Just think about when the construction will be done!

Ok so I think the bioperine rendered nardil useless to me because all my side effects of nardil disappeared recently which is extremely odd. Like my insomnia went away, hypotension went away, and my leg weakness went away. The last two doses have been without bioperine and my hypotension is coming back and my leg shakiness is starting to come back. The leg shakiness gets worst when I take my nardil and it's just starting to barely come back. Screw bioperine!! I was taking a rediculous amount of bioperine too. 60mg a day, 20mg per dose. 

Nardil I'm ready for you to come back! Sorry for ruining you with bioperine!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Im thinking about taking a WK to... The constructionwork might take this week or next, but im mentally burned out. Sure its been good CBT-Training but i havent felt it gave me anything, the whole interacting with other human doesn't make me feel good... But i am in a stressed,depressed,SLEEPDREPRIVED condition so maybe in the future!...


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Yeah i din't have the chance to the try L-Theanine, felt cold and febrish statureday, and sunday n monday...So i want to be at like at "normal" state...

I don't know Barry is it good to hang around, just for the heck of it... (i normaly don't write much when im down).... Naturally break wont fix much, Instead of "shutting down", maybe som CBT..And continue to be active, for me atlseast....


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

How come your down? Did you stop parnate? I was feeling down for a while last week because I completely stopped my nardil from working.

Side effects are coming back which is bizarre how much a supplement can really mess up nardil's efficiency.

I now get slight insomnia (was bad before)
Constipations back (haven't pooped in 3 days)
Depressions better
Anxiety relief is back
hypotension is back
iritableness is gone (was really bad, almost broke up with my fiance of 5 years because I was in such a bad mood! I feel so bad for her)
Interest in sex is gone (When nardil wasn't working I was having sex daily) I didn't understand how I got so sexual and finally it clicked.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

I thought they were supposed to be done (construction workers) this monday...It atleast gonna take this week so 3months and 1week., then they gonna fix the outside... And the Garage (3) he destroyd...

I dont know i somewhat realised that my whole sommer just been spent watching the dog, so he wont bite them... I also feel like the construction leader said "i dont prioritze your building"(and thats kinda how i always feel from others)
And i/we should have used muzzle on them before, my mother stand as major owner, and she works with insurenses(somewhat high position)... said she burn them/blacklist the company and the people as not serius... 

ehh im just tired... Sleep like 3-4 hours night...for 3monts... but yeah cherris this week and CBT-train on them before they leave...


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Its funny we kind of feel the same but live 2 different typ of lives... Damn i war really routing for you!. Ill think you get there, if not better. Now you got the "eye of the tiger"!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

watertouch said:


> ehh im just tired... Sleep like 3-4 hours night...for 3monts... but yeah cherris this week and CBT-train on them before they leave...


Today i spent like half an hour talking to the Painter, a 60 year old male who like Violins, I like Guitars... thats our connection. 
(one have to feel the personal chemistry/mood though) Thats kinda also it, it didn't gave me anything, the Parnate even stops me from reflection on it with "anxiety"...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Yea that would stress me out too. I couldn't deal 3 months with that. I'm lucky because my sleep has been good lately because I messed up nardil but the insomnia probably will return. Each day has been getting better since stopping bioperine. Man I am not taking supplements with nardil anymore except b6 and milkthistle. I may try seroquel again since I thought it caused negative effects the next day but that was bioperine. I'll feel better I promise. I already feel good. Social anxiety still happens in the morning but it's not terrible like I used to be so can't complain. But it's funny how I tell nardil is kicking in because my legs get wicked weak and they shake when going down the stairs


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

As soon as increased dose to 75mg, about 12 days later i felt much better. Not sure if the theory of mg/per kilograms applies here. I weight about 85kgs, so thats not too far from 75mg (rather not to go 90mg as side effects increase more)

How much do you weight barry? just curious if there is a relationship between how much a person weighs and the dose they have to take.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Burnaby said:


> As soon as increased dose to 75mg, about 12 days later i felt much better. Not sure if the theory of mg/per kilograms applies here. I weight about 85kgs, so thats not too far from 75mg (rather not to go 90mg as side effects increase more)
> 
> How much do you weight barry? just curious if there is a relationship between how much a person weighs and the dose they have to take.


I think it does, atleast in rats it effect the Gaba can se if i can found the link i upploaded it from to Barry, if youre intressted, its otherwise an interesting article on MAOI...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I weigh ~180, so in theory I would benefit from 90mg most.

60mg was helping tremendously, 75mg first dose gave me wicked euphoria and energy. This went away quickly  but I don't know if you followed my threads but bioperine destroyed nardil. I think the acid of bioperine has something to do with it. I can timeline how I felt with bioperine and noticed a decline in how I felt over the week I was on it.

Now I am day 3 off bioperine and feel way better, still waiting for mood to get better. I still need another 4 days to hopefully get back to the mood I was getting. Since I was on bioperine for 7 days. Its insane what 7 days can do when nardil isn't working. Today is day 7 on 75mg. I plan to go to 90mg soon but want to see how 75mg plays out since I just upped my dose. I am playing around with my dosing schedule too. 

I take 30mg in morning when I wake up, 15mg 4 hours later, 15mg 3 hours later and 15mg 2 hours later.

Now I am trying 30mg morning, 15mg 4 hours later and 30mg 3 hours later.

For me nardil kicks in about 3-4 hours after I take my dose so it doesn't make sense to take nardil at 4pm since it would kick in at 8pm and last till 12?am


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Have you gotten those ehh pills, capsuels that slowly disolved? i can see one wants to reach a steady level before trying them though...
Best wishes!/Alex!


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I weigh ~180, so in theory I would benefit from 90mg most.
> 
> 60mg was helping tremendously, 75mg first dose gave me wicked euphoria and energy. This went away quickly  but I don't know if you followed my threads but bioperine destroyed nardil. I think the acid of bioperine has something to do with it. I can timeline how I felt with bioperine and noticed a decline in how I felt over the week I was on it.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have been following your post Barry. Sorry to hear about bioprerine, my only advise is that to see the full effect of a dose increase to stay on that dose for two weeks. I did not feel much once i increased my dose from 60 to 75 mg, although the side effects did kick in early. Once i got to day 12 or 13 i started to feel much better. There was another user on these boards that hasn't been around for a while "shyone" and he emphasized this very point too. Since you have already stayed on 75mg for a few days, i recommend you wait it out for at least two weeks before you make the decision to go to 90mg, it might not be necessary and we all know a dose increase usually is followed up with more side effects.

Regarding your dose and weight, since you are 180 lbs, you weight about 81 kilograms, so 75mg dose goes with the theory of 1mg/killo. I actually weight about 188 and i am benefiting form a 75mg dose, so based on the theory at least you should be fine. I do urge you to stay on this dose and see what happens by the two weeks mark.


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

I take 30mg in morning when I wake up, 15mg 4 hours later, 15mg 3 hours later and 15mg 2 hours later.

Now I am trying 30mg morning, 15mg 4 hours later and 30mg 3 hours later.

For me nardil kicks in about 3-4 hours after I take my dose so it doesn't make sense to take nardil at 4pm since it would kick in at 8pm and last till 12?am[/QUOTE]

Regarding dosage, i found that it makes no difference if i spread my dose or take it all at once, but that is me. You can also see past nardil users on this forum who have stated the same thing. I did however find if i take my dose at around 8pm my sleep is much better and if i take them i the morning i get the worst insomnia. Insomnia is a relative thing so if you don't have it then great, but for all others who deal with insomnia take the dose at different times of the day, and stay on the same time schedule for two weeks to see a difference, if that doesn't work you can change the timing of the day and repeat.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks burnaby! I will listen to your advice and stay on 75mg. 

For me I can't take nardil all at once because it will kick in way too much and I probably would have zero anxiety and the effect would poop out early. I'm a weird nardil responder and I feel good. I have some anxiety when I wake up. As soon as my morning dose kicks in I feel great. If I don't spread out my dose I get return of anxiety and get irritable. Maybe this will flatten out? But so far for 3 weeks it's been this way. So that's why I spread out my dose


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Just needed to went... I Love my dog its 3:50AM and my dog wake my up and needed to pee, luckaly i have a backside i can let him out on...I need to go up 6 shower and crap, mm sweet, little more then 3 combined hours of sleep. :twisted that is if i can fall asleep right now... ehhh

Update 4hours later, no sleep, no constructionworkers...
Did a "raggardush" a "hillbilly shower", just wash the armpits and groin... Yeah.. i justify it that it's better then nothing...And yes im singel!hehe


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Thanks burnaby! I will listen to your advice and stay on 75mg.
> 
> For me I can't take nardil all at once because it will kick in way too much and I probably would have zero anxiety and the effect would poop out early. I'm a weird nardil responder and I feel good. I have some anxiety when I wake up. As soon as my morning dose kicks in I feel great. If I don't spread out my dose I get return of anxiety and get irritable. Maybe this will flatten out? But so far for 3 weeks it's been this way. So that's why I spread out my dose


I hear you, we all react different to these medications and if that does the job for you so be it. The only reason i suggested to take it at once its because it helped me with the insomnia, but thankfully thats not an issue for you. Interestingly enough, I don't feel any positive relaxation effect when i take my dose and the only thing i feel sometimes is increased heart beat for 5 mins or so, but other users experience the effect right away.

I think its a wise decision to stay at 75mg for about two weeks, this is one mistake i used to make not to wait long enough but upon reading some post from "shyone" (I suggest you read some of his threads) i found out that i respond the same, and some other member which i can't remember his username. Best of luck and update us with your progress


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks guys! ugh nardil has been so strange of a med for me. I woke up depressed and felt like crap. Had social anxiety in the morning, not near as bad as before but very annoying. Took my morning dose and by 9am 1.5 hrs later I feel like 100 bucks. Happy, content, anxiety is lowering significantly. It seems the nardil kicked in sooner this morning because I took a gavis version instead of greenstone. I took less water with it as well. I might try my day on gavis tomorrow and if all goes well I will be switching to gavis. Man does the morning suck for me! I didn't even feel like posting on here until now. But I guess I at least am responding to nardil, some folks don't even get a response. I need to think about the positives.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

I always woundered this, does one get "Amp-penis" on Nardil?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I think I'm gunna stop milkthistle for now. I want all supplements out of my system to be safe.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Did you stop smoking?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

No I am stopping this weekend, I bought a vaporizer that is pretty sweet and Im going to use that for now on.

Ugh Im so pissed!!! Still no side effects are coming back. Its annoying because side effects are a sign it was working. Stupid bioperine. I think its going to take a crap load of time for me to go back to feeling like I was.

I slept like a baby last night 10 hours without a problem which is EXTREMELY odd. I should be having insane insomnia and I haven't taken a sleeping pill in days. I can still get erections easily, hypotension isn't bad, I got up last night without a problem, usually I feel like fainting. I did up my dose to 75mg but I doubt that would cause the side effects to go away. 

I am stopping all supplements until I stabilize. Wicked annoying. I am hoping by this weekend I start stabilizing again. I took bioperine for a week on high doses so I know this is the cause. I have noticed some slight improvements though, like no irritability like the past two days. I'm no longer an a hole to my fiance and am nice to her again. But I have been getting a shakey voice again (thanks bioperine). But walking in public gives me no anxiety. I lack motivation to talk to people and have been avoidant again. I was pretty talkitive for a while (3-4 weeks).

As soon as I started bioperine I declined dramatically for that week. I thought I was getting better but it was the med just working better. By day 4-7 I was getting almost a placebo effect from nardil. Now its slowly coming back.....slowly.....Holy crap you can tell when nardil kicks in for me though. I wouldn't have typed all this this morning


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> No I am stopping this weekend, I bought a vaporizer that is pretty sweet and Im going to use that for now on.
> 
> Ugh Im so pissed!!! Still no side effects are coming back. Its annoying because side effects are a sign it was working. Stupid bioperine. I think its going to take a crap load of time for me to go back to feeling like I was.
> 
> ...


once i bumped my dose to 75mg, the side effects kicked in about 10-12 days later, (weight gain, urinary retention) . Im glad you are getting some benefits and think within a week or so it will get better at 75mg. I also saw your post on another thread that you take really high doses of vitamin b6. Vitamin b6 is necessary and we know nardil can destroy it, but i have read on several forums that high doses of vitamin b6 interferes with Nardil's therapeutic effect. My suggestion is to cut your b6 dose in half and take it every 2nd or 3rd day. On a daily base, u can take a b-comlex which dose give you a fair amount of b6 as well plus all the other b's.


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

btw, don't look for insomnia as a sign of nardil working, there are people who have never had an issue with insomnia while taking nardil and their doses range from 45mg-120mg, so it might just be a blessing in disguise.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I guess, thanks for the heads up on b6, I guess I'm confused why one day I have all these side effects and then BAM they all went away. I really think it had to do with bioperine because one side effect I really notice is my legs shaking when going down stairs. When nardil kicks in for me I get weak legs and they shake, last weekend when I ended bioperine the shaky legs started to come back. Another noticeable change was last weekend my last dose I decided to not take bioperine with it and then I got a crazy response from it, the next day I took nardil without bioperine it really worked better, so we will see how being off bioperine works


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

the hypotension and shaky legs will go away after a month or two, i remember i used to walk into work and a few times i hit the ground after getting out of the car (my drive is a good 30 minutes, if you seat for a while and get up all of a sudden you feel the hypotension more in my opinion). I would not worry about that, it will go away with time and i would say within 60 days or so you should be good to go


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks. I am still a little dumbfounded about my side effects. I increased to 75mg last week, could this increase cause my side effects to go away?

I am pooping daily, sleeping awesomely, none or little hypotension.

Last week I could barely sleep, hypotension was so bad I almost fainted going up hills and getting out of the car. Still trying to figure out why my side effects randomly disappeared...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

So last week my bp was pretty low 90/70? I measured it today and it's 126/83. Does hypotension resolve that quickly?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hey guys. I just wanted to give some updates on my progress. So far I made it to week 6 (started on 30mg) and it will take another 4 weeks on 60mg to reach the 6-8 week mark on the 60mg dose. I recently uped my nardil dose to 75mg last week and noticed a decrease in side effects when I did this.

I was taking supplements bioperine and milkthistle but stopped them as I wasn't sure if they were interfering with my nardil.

Lately this week I have noticed a steady decline in nardils efficiency. In fact I started noticing the decline last weekend and it was a steady drop. I now think I was experiencing a long phase of hypomania that lasted two weeks. My mood was extremely elevated, my mind was racing with energy, couldn't stop doing things. I think this phase has ended and the real nardil effect needs to still take time. I have been getting social anxiety again with depression as well. It really sucks but I am going to wait for the nardil to kick in correctly.

Today I decided to try gavis brand nardil as I noticed the decline in mood and anxiety as I started greenstone a few weeks ago. Today it could be placebo but I feel somewhat better and have less anxiety. I will report at the end of the day to see how I feel but I am leaning towards greenstone sucking ***. In fact some of the greenstone pills have small chips in the pills exposing some of the med through the shell coating of the pill.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

One user on here had a graph of his progress. He kept upping the dose whenever it felt like the initial happy-happies had gone away, kept regaining it on each dose increase.

But his overall functioning continued to improve for a while. Eventually the dose increases did stop. You would expect it to go up and down, like a wave, going down when the euphoria wore off and going back up with each dose increase. But actually things continued to steadily improve despite the variability in felt response.

This is totally just an idea, I don't know, but: You might think about keeping your eye on psychosocial functioning as the best metric for improvement rather than the anti-anxiety/ anti-depressant _feeling _of it. IOW go ahead and chase the dragon but slow down once you are at the point that you notice you are spending free time outside of the house, making friends, taking up hobbies...

Just something I was thinking about. 

I am beginning to wonder what this means for treatment and at what point do you say "this is my forever dose". Forever dose may mean only a year's worth until adjusting but you get my point.

With those side effects though you could look into some synergistic augmentation too. Sounds like you might be getting the paradoxical weird effects in norepinephrine so you could look into that type of med. Depends on your doc's openness or what you can manage. I am just speculating though. I just finished a nortriptyline trial, even at a lowly 30 mg I thought it was quite good and I can envision a 50-75 mg dose being helpful with relatively minimal side effects. Another TCA, desipramine, is a very clean NRI. And I have written quite enough already about my highly favored MAOI/amphetamine combo.

Sorry for bombarding ideas, haha. Hope things can smooth out for you.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I agree about not chasing the dragon. I just realize this now and probably shouldn't have jumped to 75mg just yet. But I think I will do better on 75mg because everyone knows my nardil response is different than others. For example, this morning I woke up hopeless and full of anxiety. I was paranoid walking by people and felt like my old self. I dose early this morning at 5am and by 9am I was feeling fine. Social anxiety has gone down and im not as depressed. I am not looking to get the hypomania I had, I just want some motivation to leave the house and do things. Like last night I was bored and had no interest to do anything. I had bad social anxiety yesterday.

Today I took Gavis brand and feel a huge difference in how I feel. I don't feel hypomania but feel way way better than this morning and am not as depressed. I still lack motivation. I called and switched my greenstone to gavis and it will be in monday. I was taking gavis for 3 weeks and then switched to greenstone so I think a lot of my inconsistency lately has been from the greenstone meds. I think I got a bad batch of it or something. But regardless I am feeling better today than yesterday. Lets hope it gets better.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Yea I noticed I don't have as much energy lately and falling asleep has been easier, but I want to see if the gavis version changes my response for now. Then I will decide what I want to do.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I'm feeling 100% better today. I think it had to do with a bad batch from greenstone. Gavis works way better for me and Mr. T recommends gavis over any other generics. I am getting gavis on monday so will have to deal with greenstone over the weekend. 

The gavis I took was 2-3 months old so im surprised that works better than greenstone.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> watertouch!!! Haven't seen ya in a while buddy. I get my gavis today around lunch time. I won't have a real trial until tomorrow.
> 
> One thing I really notice with nardil and more specifically with the gavis version is that when nardil kicks in my legs get shakey and weak. I noticed that the greenstone version barely causes my legs to shake, the gavis version causes my legs to get all wobbly. I think that means the gavis version is working better.
> 
> One other weird fact I noticed with my nardil, when it kicks in I get hypotension and when I wake up I don't have any hypotension. Gavis gave me more hypotension.


Yeah was a weird friday, my mother who works with insurences on houses n stuff (quite high up) called the lead constructionworker the cocky one, who gave her attityde, so she fired him!... He didn't came back after lunch his stomach hurt... Didn't need my friend after all ... So i sleept almost all weekend didn't wake up till 20:30 yesterday...

Weird that you get hypotension when the pill kicks in, i assume it has some releasing propertys, was a guy here whos BP shot up quite a bit when he dosed all in the morning... Do you have any lower BP when you wake up then before starting? (the maoi effect) I guess you have to try them to see wich works best, but i assume you searched your behind of to see wich other users preffer


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thats awesome dude. No more mean construction guys.

I need to pay more attention to the hypotension, I don't get hypertension. I get hypotension when lifting heavy stuff. I used to get it bad when I got out of bed but not anymore. I can get up in the morning without any. I only had hypotension really bad for like a week. I think the dose increase may have caused me to get worse for a while but its starting to work better now. Insomnia isn't too bad either. I will try sleeping without a pill tonight. I usually wake up 4-5 times in the night to drink water or pee. But I can sleep no problem. I think the daytime sedation helps me sleep better. 

I just got my gavis script today so I will see how much a difference it makes.:clap


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Well that sweet, the Insomnia was my main prob before, guess one get used to it, but it was still worth it compare to how i felt before the medicine...

Hehe the key is to have a glass of water on the night stand , of course i tend to drink from it before i go to sleep, so get sleepy but have to go up and pee.

But yes now my 3-4 hours of sleep per night is over, and the psychologial frustration of waiting for them to show up, and sometime they diddin't not even a phonecall!...

I felt so good today i started doing laundry, that been piling...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

So Gavis version is way stronger for me. My last two pills were gavis and my legs are shaking good. On greenstone they barely shaked. In fact I just had some hypotension when going up the stairs. Tomorrow will be better as the full dose will be all gavis.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Yeah its interessting that they work different, if it been Insulin or heartmedicin people would be outrages!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Man I still don't understand how nardil works for me. In the morning my social anxiety is like 30% gone, and 4 hours later after my dose my social anxiety is about 80-90% gone. 

Apparently I've figured out that 4 hours later nardil kicks in for me, so I have to wake up really early to get a jump start on nardil. I can tell its kicking in because my hands start shaking like crazy.

Its funny how it kicks in, because in the mornings I feel bored and don't feel excited about anything. Like I have a trip to North Carolina next week and I dread it in the mornings, but when nardil kicks in I feel wicked excited about it and can't wait to go.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Well ive been on Pubmed all day, so its the effect of the pill that inhibits GABA-T and raises GABA... (you probably have figured that out already)

Funny, 4hours was spot on with this studie i just read
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19203467


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Weird! I wonder why some ppl get the effect all day? Like for me I have to split the doses up throughout the day, some other people take it all at once.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Weird! I wonder why some ppl get the effect all day? Like for me I have to split the doses up throughout the day, some other people take it all at once.


Well the GABA effect is dose depended. But the effect is long so splitting the dose doesnt really matter that much, i guess its for the somewhat stimulating effect of the PEA in Nardil... Or maybe they find it unconvinient to split it during the day...
Have you tried dosing it all at once?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

No, but maybe that is a good idea. I noticed that it doesn't matter when I take the extra pills in the day because the effect lasts so long. So maybe I will try that tomorrow. Thanks watertouch!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> No, but maybe that is a good idea. I noticed that it doesn't matter when I take the extra pills in the day because the effect lasts so long. So maybe I will try that tomorrow. Thanks watertouch!


njaee be careful i just checked it up it Stahl's prescribers guide and the side effect "orthostatic hypotension" is dose dependended. Apperently some users has to spread out their dose on 3-4 ocations.... That "OH" can really ruin your day!!!


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Im really confused about hypotension. I don't have it that bad, honestly I don't even have symptoms of it. I had really bad hypotension the week 3&4 and now its like non existant. Is this normal? Or will hypotension get worst later?


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

barry1685 said:


> Im really confused about hypotension. I don't have it that bad, honestly I don't even have symptoms of it. I had really bad hypotension the week 3&4 and now its like non existant. Is this normal? Or will hypotension get worst later?


I have finally found the hypotensive effect of Parnate. I keep hearing that MAOIs are supposed to lower BP, but have never been able to find this effect before. Seems this effect was induced by drinking wine. BP is still at the lowest levels I've ever recorded even though I'm back to sober. I have no symptoms and wouldn't know my BP was at the lowest levels ever if I hadn't checked it multiple times.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Well, I must give bad news about my nardil progress. I feel it slowly getting worst since the past two weeks. I've only been on nardil for a total of 7 weeks. I recently two weeks ago uped my dose to 75mg and started losing all my side effects and started declining after upping the dose. 

My social anxiety is near 100% in the mornings and about 60% in the daytime. When the afternoon strikes I have about 20-30% reduction in anxiety. 2 or so weeks ago I had anxiety relief from morning till evening. 

I'm not sure I want to place blame on a dose increase because technically I should be getting better after the increase.  I don't know how long I will give nardil. But I don't want to switch antidepressants because I think nardil is better depression wise than any of the ssris. Parnate is an option but I also see that pooping out so I don't know if I want to go through that.

I started supplementing bioperine again to see if it helps. Bioperine wasn't the cause of nardil not working, I think the main cause is the dose increase. But I'm afraid of going down in dose because I don't want my anxiety to get worst. 

I don't want to add a med to nardil either.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Just a tad to add, I think I'm getting too much norepinephrine. My heart rate is usually pretty high in the 90s and when I'm moving around its in the 110 range. I think the 75mg dose is more activating. I wonder is 90mg would have a better level? What do you guys think, 60mg or 90mg?

Edit - Is Guanfacine safe with nardil?


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

why not lower the dose to 60mg or 45mg for a week? if you feel better than would be sign your dose is too much and if no change after one week increase once again, some members find doing this second time helping more


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Yea, I think I may eventually try that. I am going to bump to 90mg and if I feel worst I will be going down to 60mg.

I am also trying bioperine which seems to be helping already. I feel somewhat better today and I think over the weekend I will see if this helps.

I think I'm doing better than yesterday but I have a lot of adrenaline lately. I think its because I fear nardil losing total effect. But I think and hope that nardil stabilizes soon. I just hate the afternoon and the morning. I would say that the mornings are horrible, and that the afternoons show my SA symptoms coming back.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

On a side note, I still am doing way better than I was with SA. I was severely depressed and couldn't even leave the house without a benzo. At least I can do this now. I think like everyone who experiences hypomania that they miss it. For a while I was thinking hypomania was the real nardil.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

@*barry1685* I think it's a good idea to go up to 90mg, (unless you feel suicadal)... And that will inhibith much% of MAO, in theory you could stop taking Nardil then and see how just the MAOi effect work...

Just MAOinhibition is probably not the worst AD out there,. Although i preffer taking my pills to boost it, i bet you would to 

But i think your right with the initial PEA boost!... In training there is alot of supplements some of the contain PEA+boosters(dont take them) but they are supposed to be "cycled" 6weeks on 4weeks of...

Not that easy with Nardil... But i think you will regreat not going to 90 and testing the medicin fully...

But is this since you switched to the Gavis brand?

Just because you going back on the Biperine i saw Piperine being an MAOi in one report... Considering the extended search i did before i dismiss that one.

I don't think you should fiddle around to much with the "weird" supplement and such, and smoking for instance, it can have a bad effect on mood if cutting down or quit...

Supplements like say b-50complex, multivitamin/mineral. I don't know how much Protein you eat but thats needed for precursers to signalsubstances/amines... ohh and Omega-3 not to much to 3grams or so, it actually can lower cortisol...

About the excessive Noradrenalin signaling, a benzo might work, or spread out the doses, remember PEA is stimulating. Did you start drinking Coffee again, or am i confusing you with someone else?...

Anyway as always! Best wishes!!!/Alex


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hey Alex, I think the bioperine is working good with nardil, each dose feels stronger with it so I'm going to stay with it. I think I will take a break from nardil maybe on Friday and Saturday. But I think 90mg is helping more. What supplements would help GABA?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Hey Alex, I think the bioperine is working good with nardil, each dose feels stronger with it so I'm going to stay with it. I think I will take a break from nardil maybe on Friday and Saturday. But I think 90mg is helping more. What supplements would help GABA?


the amino acid L-Glutamine i think i saw a raport on, but ive been reading reports that day for like 7hours straight so my brain was a bit clouded... But i can look it up...

I havent tried that L-Theanine yeat so dont buy that.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks bro!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Checked it out and it doesnt work to supplement with..


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

What doesn't work?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Well I think nardil is pooping out on me. I am trying my full dose this morning to see if it helps. If it wears off in the evening I may switch to 30mg for the week and jump back to 60mg on Friday.

But spreading my dose throughout the day doesn't make it work great. I can't go in stores anymore and get anxiety still. I don't know what to do. I might switch to parnate but fear my anxiety may be worst on it.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Well I think nardil is pooping out on me. I am trying my full dose this morning to see if it helps. If it wears off in the evening I may switch to 30mg for the week and jump back to 60mg on Friday.
> 
> But spreading my dose throughout the day doesn't make it work great. I can't go in stores anymore and get anxiety still. I don't know what to do. I might switch to parnate but fear my anxiety may be worst on it.


The supplement Glutamine for raising GABA.... Is it the since Gavis? Maybe try take away the bioperine again...

But Barry... You can't take 90mg that short, atleast let it destroy the MAO....
Then you can play around with it, maybe try greenstone again...

Ohh what part do think is pooping-out? the GABA-T or the other with the pill?

In worse case you wellcome to join the Parnate club... It does have some effect.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Whoa I took full dose this morning and it works wayyyy better, no anxiety in morning and it lasts a long time! I still like to lower my dose for tolerance, what's a good dose for a week, 30mg?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

It can be the MAO% what you just get up? what time do you have?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I took full dose when I woke up and it's still lasting and working really good .


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Yeah you inhibithed more MAO, and like we talked about before why some people take the full dose in the morning, well now you know... I don't thinkt you should lower it yeat, I get why you wanna try it, but i think you should strive for the MAO inhibition first, 
Besides if you take a week of, more MAO will still be inhibithed when you start again, and thus better effect....


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Sweet thanks dude! Nardil has worked extremely well today! Worked really good in the morning and is still working amazing. So I guess I will continue taking it in the morning. If I want to take a break in the future, do you think a week off would work?


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Why is glutamine not work? Is it not comparable with nardil?


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

barry1685 said:


> Just a tad to add, I think I'm getting too much norepinephrine. My heart rate is usually pretty high in the 90s and when I'm moving around its in the 110 range. I think the 75mg dose is more activating. I wonder is 90mg would have a better level? What do you guys think, 60mg or 90mg?
> 
> Edit - Is Guanfacine safe with nardil?


Sometimes low blood pressure causes an increase in heart rate, and vice versa. Compensatory mechanism.

My subjective impression is that you are not sure how much to take, or when. I would suggest sticking with the mg/kg rule and from there, divide doses however is most comfortable. Nardil probably works via long term, downstream cellular events. That takes weeks. It can be hard to decide on doses if you focus on day to day fluctuations.

I would possibly stick with a dose and a schedule, and rate mood/energy each day for at least a week or 2. Watch for correlations between those ratings, and dose changes. That may help with deciding. But hold steady while trying things out. (I dont know if you'll be able to really tell if this bioperine stuff affects bioavailability or not if you are also trying to figure out doses at the same time.) Just an idea.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

True, I agree. I think I will stick with bioperine though because It seems to work well.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Why is glutamine not work? Is it not comparable with nardil?


It is just a tiny bit that gets convertet to GABA its a whole process, compared to say L-Tyrosin-Dopamin or L-Tryptophan-Serotonin...

So it just doesn't work...

Eating enough protein though is always good, aa "Whey Protein powder" is cheap fullworhty (all amino acids) can be good to complement if not.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

So it only works a little bit?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

No its apperently enough of it in food.

Maybe you can add something that works on GABA, Like a benzo or Lyrica, gabaneptine. Perhaps a "Z" drug like Zopiclone would have effect on morning anxiety.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

These meds don't have an effect on nardils efficiency right?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

they get enhenced by the GABA-T inhibition.... I don't exactly remember wich liver enzyms that breaks down Nardil, these effect CYP3A4. But not strongly


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## Cascade (Feb 17, 2013)

@barry1685

I would really recommend stabilizing on Nardil before you think about augmenting it. You don't want to go on Lyrica or benzos if you don't have to (both are fine with Nardil) and you'll never know what effects you are getting from the Nardil vs the other. You talk about it pooping it out, but you've only been on it for 7 weeks. Some people it takes 8 weeks to even kick in. You experienced a long hypomanic period. I know it is a great feeling, but don't go trying to chase it or recreate it because you can't. You need first to find your ideal dosage of Nardil, stay on that, and then figure out if you want to add.

Regarding dosage, you aren't doing yourself any favors by going up and down and this stage of treatment. Nardil is best if increased slowly. You should stabilize on an amount and then only bump it up a pill once you've achieved this. It is a long process, but the best way to achieve results in the long run.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Yea you guys are right. But taking it in the morning full dose was my problem. Spreading it throughout the day didn't help me. The gaba effect was almost useless when spreading my doses out. 

What are the tricks down the road to taking a break to nardil? Like does lowering the dose for a few days help? or do I need to go down to a really low dose or completely off of it for a certain amount of time?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Yea you guys are right. But taking it in the morning full dose was my problem. Spreading it throughout the day didn't help me. The gaba effect was almost useless when spreading my doses out.
> 
> What are the tricks down the road to taking a break to nardil? Like does lowering the dose for a few days help? or do I need to go down to a really low dose or completely off of it for a certain amount of time?


Are you chasing the dragon?, it worked really well inte the beginning, i get you want that back... A week wont do it, neither 2... Stick to 90 for a while then augment it or play around...
But that enitital effect "honneymoon phase" thats over...:blank


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

haha no way! I'm not chasing the dragon  I haven't had hypomania at all and I think Im stabalizing. Morning anxiety is getting way better. Although by 6-7pm I find my old self coming back which is okay because I don't really have much going on. 

So all in all nardil is working great for me. I haven't really posted updates because I am living life and don't really have time for it. I am helping some other users get on nardil in the meantime. 

but for tolerance I am going to wait for nardil to plateau and when it does I will be taking a break from it. Many users continue taking nardil thinking tolerance won't build but that is not the case. Tolerance builds a lot and you have to cycle doses for that effect to come back. So right now I am in the "working period" of nardil and when it starts waning away I will take a break.

I want to mention that you can take an extra pill if you need it for social events, to me it removes all anxiety for the time I take it. It's like an extremely strong benzo! So its nice to have this option.

How are you watertouch? Haven't talked to you in ages!!

I forgot to add one thing, I took two unisom last night and I had some sort of dreams. Tiny bits I remember from dreaming which was odd because I thought REM was gone and I never dreamed before.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Im ok i guess, socially its going fine, was at the policestation picking up my renewed ID and went in to the shoppingmall, well the liqours store lies there...
Took a break from Vyvanse since it's not good to take all days, and tried Theralen (an antihistamine) so sleept for 15 hours,(only ment to sleep 7hours) felt like crap, well rest of the day, and so. Really brings one down. And "hangover"... 
I didn't have the energy to log in here or anything, just watched the TV-guide and, TV....

Its like the Parnate pooped out, well the suicidal thoughts are still gone so, but energywise and so, its a mess, didn't even bother to brush my teeth today, just took some gum... So there is some Anxiolytic effect there, i would normally never do that, i brush my teeth if im going out...
I almost feel like im slipping in another depression...

So yeah it's a bit hard i have to plan for a plan B, or it just been a week since the workers were done,,, " i was high on life" after that... And were up like 2days in a row, just because i know i can sleep whenever i want!!!... But yeah that whole 4months... I guess its might take some time comming back, specially for someone with my diagnoses...

Hmm you dreamt on Nardil... weird, think its like Rem killer nr1...

Anyway as always, my best wishes!!!/Alex.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

That sucks to hear man, at least you are getting out! What causes your depression? anxiety? Maybe try nardil?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> That sucks to hear man, at least you are getting out! What causes your depression? anxiety? Maybe try nardil?


I think its the releaf i fellt over that they not invading my home, so ive been upp like 48hours a couple of times this week, ive been having this inner peace, and energy, so ive been sitting on pubmed just reading articles/studies... And i been sleeping in wrong cycles, And my Libido is back!!!...
So yeah turn back the sleep cycle so i get some daylight, eat better, and try to start working out with dumbells and barbells i have at home...

Takes a bit of energy to get startet, but once i start its, better then nothing... Problem is that it doesn't come naturally...

I realize while writing this that i probably have sleept to little...So sleep cycle, better food,+ training...

Thanks Barry!... I was abit stuck in my thinking of poop out...


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

hahah gotcha man. Now you can fap all day inside. Just be careful of a car ramming into your house!


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> hahah gotcha man. Now you can fap all day inside. Just be careful of a car ramming into your house!


hehehe if he drives in his car again, i will go out and strangle him or something... Im calling you as whitness Im gonna plead "temporary insanity"
Seriusly i would just start to cry... Or laugh, like a madman!

Just put on my jeans, grab my guitar, ATM card. just jump on a fast-train and go somewere... Start a new life.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

So I've been busy with life trying to figure out nardil dosing so I'm back with my results on nardil to share with everyone. So I started nardil from 45 and finally ended on 90mg. The first month or two I was cured of social anxiety but this quickly ended as I upped my dose. So with this problem I had two choices, quit nardil or try tapering and breaks. So I chose trying a taper schedule as I read people on nardil for years get this problem. And for me especially with a high tolerance with all meds needed a solution. So I jumped back down to 60mg and noticed it sorta worked more but the effect only lasted a week then jumped to 90 and this only lasted a week as well. So I decided to take a more drastic taper schedule since many people just take a 15mg does for maintenance and jump up to A higher dose for anxiety relief. So I decided to take a 4 day break on 15mg and soon will jump to 60mg until it wears off then up to 90 until it wears off. 

Now I must say nardil isn't a cure for me it's only a bandaid that allows me to function. I still get social anxiety but it's way better than it's ever been and I can at leave the house. On 15 mg I can't leave the house without benzos. I think this is why people think nardil poops out on them because they just keep taking 90mg for months. If I stayed on Nardil 90mg for months it would still work but I would definitively notice a tolerance effect build. So the trick is if you get tolerance problems you have to take a break. 

One thing I've found out is nardil with beta blocker helps immensely with anxiety. At 90 mg I get a lot of norepinephrine and the beta blocker counters this effect. 

So this is one of my updates. I wish I didn't have to taper but it's better than nothing. I will continue my nardil journey and I plan to be on it for life unless it doesn't work at all. Parnate is an option too but I don't like how it has more norepinephrine than nardil.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

This is in sync with your doctor's guidance?

I just don't agree with this approach. *Pick a dose, stay there. It takes months for downstream effects.* Nardil is most effective AFTER taking it for months. It takes time for beta receptor alteration (that's why your beta blockers seem to help - because you're not letting the Nardil do its job!). And all kinds of other brain changes. Most involve acronyms and little proteins and microbiology things that I only barely understand, but I know enough to know that it happens.

Clinical studies involve sustained doses. I don't know of any solid research that supports jumping from dose to dose as a long term approach to taking Nardil. If the medication becomes ineffective, you raise the dose within evidence-based ranges, augment, or switch.

People take occasional breaks on stimulants, I get that, but antidepressants are your anchor. They should be helping you 24/7. If they don't, or can't, then they aren't very effective.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Caedmon said:


> This is in sync with your doctor's guidance?
> 
> I just don't agree with this approach. *Pick a dose, stay there. It takes months for downstream effects.* Nardil is most effective AFTER taking it for months. It takes time for beta receptor alteration (that's why your beta blockers seem to help - because you're not letting the Nardil do its job!). And all kinds of other brain changes. Most involve acronyms and little proteins and microbiology things that I only barely understand, but I know enough to know that it happens.
> 
> ...


I like nardil and I want to stay on it. If nardil stops working over a week why should I continue taking it for a longer term just to get worst. I don't want to try any other med at this point.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> I like nardil and I want to stay on it. If nardil stops working over a week why should I continue taking it for a longer term just to get worst. I don't want to try any other med at this point.


I kind of agree with both you and Caedmon at the same time. On one hand, it's better for the long-term effect on receptors for you to stay at one fixed dose, but on the other hand being a Nardil user myself I know exactly why you do the frequent switching of dose: the initial dopamine boost does indeed seem to fade after a matter of about a week or two almost like the tolerance to Stimulants does, so you have to treat it sort of like taking a stim break

*barry1685*, you're on Gavis nardil right? Would you mind either explaining to me in a private message or on here if it's not too lengthy as to how you do your back and forth schedule with Nardil...? I'm in a weird place where idk whether to stay with Pfizer and get fatter/feel a little less energetic but calm and more fluid socially or go back on Gavis which helps me have more energy but also tends to make me feel a little more antsy/maybe boosts norepinephrine more? I think I just need to go on Gavis and find a way to combat the extra norepinephrine either with an adjunct medication or a natural way somehow if that's possible. Or maybe I should only be on 60mg with Pfizer, and more like 45mg with Gavis.

Gah, Nardil's a complicated girl but she always treats you right if you put up with her moodiness


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Parnate is not always "activating" though, some get tired from it.

And as Caedmon said after being stable on it some time, it effect adrenergic and beta receptors... This is not always good, jumping between doses might help... In my case i got Orthostatic Hypotension.
There is also some reports that Octopamine (an amine) can build up in the Noradrenaline vessel, replacing some of it. This could help with anxiety, but also cause or increase Orthostatic Hypotension.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Okay,

I want to share my dosing schedule as I think some people might benefit. As for me, I have a high tolerance to any medication. So I HAVE to do this or the medication will fail. I am considered an oddity when it comes to tolerance. So here is my current dosing strategy. It's not official yet as I am still experimenting.

So to answer Hworth's question about which nardil version I take is greenstone as I find it doesn't have a crazy kick like gavis, it at least lasts longer in my opinion throughout the day.

So my main problem is anxiety and depression is from anxiety. So this is why I can get away with tapering. This might not work with someone that is the opposite who suffers from depression more.

So currently I am taking 15-30mg for about 5 days, 15mg for the first two days and 30mg for the next 3 days. Then I will bump it up to 60mg, and use this dose as long as I can until I feel it wearing out. Then I will jump to 90mg and ride this dose until I feel it wearing out as well, then back to the tapering. Usually I can get two weeks out of the 60mg and 90mg.

I take benzos the days I am tapering on a low dose.

One tip for Hworth for the high norepinphrine is to take a beta blocker. When I get to 90mg the norepinephrine is too much and I find that taking a beta blocker eliminates this problem. Tenex may be a better solution but I prefer beta blockers. 

My fiance also supports me getting rTMS but I am not doing this until I really need it.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

barry1685 said:


> Okay,
> 
> I want to share my dosing schedule as I think some people might benefit. As for me, I have a high tolerance to any medication. So I HAVE to do this or the medication will fail. I am considered an oddity when it comes to tolerance. So here is my current dosing strategy. It's not official yet as I am still experimenting.
> 
> ...


So just to clarify, do you also find that Gavis nardil has a reallly strong kick-in, almost to the point of being like nervously uncomfortable for the first hour to hour and a half after dosing? I've been taking Greenstone for the past two weeks and it felt great, then I switched to Gavis again today just to see how it felt after a while off of it and I once again feel agitated/less able to take in the world around me calmly... I feel almost hyperfocused, and it's not a great thing.

I want to keep taking Greenstone, but the thing that pisses me off is I honestly get so much worse water weight + fluid retention immediately, like the first day of switching back on it.. whereas with Gavis I don't get any at all. But perhaps thats a bad thing since they say side effects are an indicator of Nardil working well..? Which would make sense cause Greenstone feels so much better for me.

Do you experience the water weight/ big bloated gut with Greenstone too? Any tips for me? haha


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

^Someone posted this today, maybe could be something.
http://pro.psychcentral.com/this-mo...d-reflections-on-the-use-of-maois/002956.html

edema (which I have treated with hydrochlorothiazide)


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

I think I have the water retention problem regardless of what I'm taking. I just dislike gavis because it doesn't last as long throughout the day. I take greenstone now and honestly hate gavis. I have a full bottle full of gavis that I use when I taper down. So I use it for the week I'm off or on a low dose of nardil. Tomorrow is my last day of my taper which will make 5 days. I find that I can't taper much longer because depression is coming back.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

With beta blocker I don't get any of the high amounts of norepinephrine. So I recommend you get some of that. It stops the racing heart in the morning anxiety that I get.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

So I want to update this thread based on my 5 day break. So yesterday was my first day back on 60mg and I felt a little bit better. Today I felt too happy. I was actually getting euphoria listening to my music and the great sunny sky. I started smoking a cig but the euphoria was too much so I threw it out my window.

But I really didn't want to boast, I wanted to described the extreme vivid dreams I've been having since REM has returned because I took a 5 day break and my dreams have been hilarious.

I will just talk about the dream I had last night. I went to the pharmacy to get my nardil refill (of course). I then picked up the script and walked away and somehow I had like a milllion different types of nardil in my pocket and I couldn't figure out which one was the right one so I opened my new bottle and saw this big *** pill that was shapped like a v and took it. Then I looked at the name of the script and it wasn't nardil and Im like WTF is this to the pharmacist and hes like "viagra" and Im like wtf dude I am on a maoi. So he freaked out and then said it was too low of a dose to do anything and refilled my rx with "gifts". I walked outside and started gnawing on the treats and realized it was a dog treat. So I went back in freaking out and yelling out loud like "you gave me viagra and dog treats wtf is wrong with you" and the weird part was that while I was trying to say this I was like slurring my words and had a hard time saying it. Then I woke up to my fiance yelling at me like are you ok??? She thought I was having a stroke because I was slurring my words and yelling out loud. LMAO!! These dreams are rediculous..... I don't understand why my dreams are so intense lately.


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## barry1685 (May 25, 2011)

Hey guys. I think I finally got some structure to my nardil dosing and I think I finally can say that I am in remission.

So I want to give advice to other nardil users to not rush a dose like I did. I didn't listen to other people on this forum and jumped too fast on my dosing.

So I went from 60mg to 75mg to try and feel better which made me worse, then went from 75mg to 90mg which led to a poopout effect.

So I recently have been taking breaks and restarting nardil trying to find the right dose and found that 60mg is the golden dose for me.

So I recommended if anyone runs into my problem to take a week break on nardil and go to 15mg for the week. Then titrate back to a lower dose and hold there for a week to see if things change. Nardil has allowed me to function great and I feel like my social anxiety is under control now.

For example I just made a call to a print guy who made some minor mistakes on our poster and got him to reprint our poster which is very expensive. This obviously was a difficult call and I didn't have any anxiety just felt a little awkward. I felt bad for the guy but at the same time he can't be creating poor quality work.

Before nardil I wouldn't even think about calling this guy, I would panic and I probably would have to pop a bunch of benzos just to make the call.

I am not a social butterfly by any means on nardil, but I am more comfortable with myself and accept who I am and don't worry about the little things.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

That's awesome to hear barry! I've also found that 60mg of Nardil when I'm on the Greenstone/Pfizer version is the perfect dose. (Gavis is more like 45mg).

Just an FYI, 2mg Nicotine chewing gum feels amazing and insanely pro-social if you use it only like 2 times a week on Nardil haha


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## ShyNardilUser (Jul 22, 2014)

I was extremely shy before taking Nardil, people would tell me I was the shyest person they ever met. Now on Nardil, I'm still very shy and still not overly into socializing with acquaintances and new people. I think I do seem like less of a freak when having a casual conversation with someone who asks about my dog, or with someone about something work related. Nardil has helped more with what i would call general anxiety...but I guess it is also social anxiety related...I don't worry about things before they happen. Before I may have worried for 2 weeks about having to have a particular meeting, but now I don't worry until the day of, if at all...but i'll still be very shy in the meeting. Also, if I know a conversation went poorly, I don't feel so bad about it after...it's just over and done. I'm more in the moment. I noticed this more when I first started 60...it's still there if I think about it, but I'm getting more shyness back I think...like I think more about being judged in a conversation like I used to...but it still helps. I think I need a higher dose, I just had to wait for some side effects to go down...like falling asleep while driving! But I'm fine with that now.


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## JohnnyAlonzo (Jan 25, 2013)

That's good to hear Shy Nardil User. Always keep in mind that self therapy and self thoughts can help a ton. Even completely healthy normal people have some fears and thoughts like that, It's about controlling it as much as you can. Remember nothing is ever perfect. I know how you feel though on a lot of what you said and it's awesome you took a chance on Nardil. I would be careful about upping the dose because even worse side effects can appear. How long have you been on it? Full depressive and anti anxiety effects can take up to 3 months and with some people it took 4-5 months! If any of the side effects get so bad where you want to stop taking Nardil , lower your dosage, even if it's by 30 mg or 45 mg. My mistake was when my insomnia hit, extreme insomnia I just freaked out and impulsively went off it. Two years later and after going through all of those damn SSRI's and SNRI's AGAIN I am back here and back on Nardil. It is working for me so far and hope it continues to work for you because not one person should have to suffer. Good luck!


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## ShyNardilUser (Jul 22, 2014)

I've been very careful. I've been on 60 for a few months, to the point where the majority of my side effects (other than extreme overeating of carbs) have gone away. The effects are not increasing, I'm going back to normal in a lot of ways, though I never got the "social anxiety" relief other people get from it. So I've always intended to go higher, I just had to wait for my hypersomnia to clear so I wouldn't fall asleep at work or on the road (which I did a lot for awhile). Obviously the side effects have not made me want to stop or lower the dose...I waited through them, I miss them! I actually loved the tired feeling in a way, despite the danger...cause it was almost a high feeling, different than a "real life" tired. The farting, constipation, and weight gain weren't so cool, but they are worth it. Also, eating carbs used to be as good or better than eating on pot...probably better! Also strangely, I loved not having any desire for sex. Traded desire for sex for desire for food. Now I have both. Lame. Hope my "side effects" come back at 75. My doctor is currently out of town and not returning my calls...she accidently under prescribed me and I am going to run out! Can I sue her for the withdrawal symptoms?


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## JohnnyAlonzo (Jan 25, 2013)

LOL! I don't if you're joking about suing your doctor but why would you want to sue a person who is trying to help you? You would never win that case anyway.


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## animalguy (Sep 20, 2014)

ShyNardilUser said:


> I've been very careful. I've been on 60 for a few months, to the point where the majority of my side effects (other than extreme overeating of carbs) have gone away. The effects are not increasing, I'm going back to normal in a lot of ways, though I never got the "social anxiety" relief other people get from it. So I've always intended to go higher, I just had to wait for my hypersomnia to clear so I wouldn't fall asleep at work or on the road (which I did a lot for awhile). Obviously the side effects have not made me want to stop or lower the dose...I waited through them, I miss them! I actually loved the tired feeling in a way, despite the danger...cause it was almost a high feeling, different than a "real life" tired. The farting, constipation, and weight gain weren't so cool, but they are worth it. Also, eating carbs used to be as good or better than eating on pot...probably better! Also strangely, I loved not having any desire for sex. Traded desire for sex for desire for food. Now I have both. Lame. Hope my "side effects" come back at 75. My doctor is currently out of town and not returning my calls...she accidently under prescribed me and I am going to run out! Can I sue her for the withdrawal symptoms?


How long were you on 60mg before you starting noticing side effects?


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## ShyNardilUser (Jul 22, 2014)

I'm not sure how long it was. Maybe 1-2 weeks? I got the tiredness right away though. Constipation came later. Didn't poo for 2 weeks until I tried stool softeners. I'm almost normal with that again. I'm not sure when the new love of eating tons of carbs came cause I probably didn't notice at first. And I gained 10-15lbs...and have a big round stomach. But surprisingly, despite the fact that I've been eating half a gallon of icecream in one sitting, most of it is just water weight. If I take diuretics and drink a lot of water I can have a flat stomach again in a few days, pretty crazy. I've really lost the self control with food. Before I was a healthy, light eater. Now that some of my clothes aren't fitting I'm going to make a serious effort to eat healthy again. But Nardil makes it easy to consume tons of sugar! Also, I used to naturally drink tons of water all day because I was always thirsty. After I started Nardil I no longer ever felt thirsty! Unless I force myself to, I really only want to drink probably one glass of water per day...such a strange side effect. Now I just want to drink coffee all day. Coffee has no effect on me. Previously 2 cups and I'd be too nervous and jittery to function. Now I can litterly drink coffee all day, any time of day and I still feel the same, I can even fall asleep right after several cups. Sorry, nobody asked about all of this!


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## sadness (May 9, 2006)

Question.

Lots of people get extreme fatigue while on Nardil at the beginning as well as Hypomania.

But like, how can you be so tired all day AND be hypomanic at the same time? 

Seems paradoxical.


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## User5 (Jun 22, 2010)

ShyNardilUser said:


> I'm not sure how long it was. Maybe 1-2 weeks? I got the tiredness right away though. Constipation came later. Didn't poo for 2 weeks until I tried stool softeners. I'm almost normal with that again. I'm not sure when the new love of eating tons of carbs came cause I probably didn't notice at first. And I gained 10-15lbs...and have a big round stomach. But surprisingly, despite the fact that I've been eating half a gallon of icecream in one sitting, most of it is just water weight. If I take diuretics and drink a lot of water I can have a flat stomach again in a few days, pretty crazy. I've really lost the self control with food. Before I was a healthy, light eater. Now that some of my clothes aren't fitting I'm going to make a serious effort to eat healthy again. But Nardil makes it easy to consume tons of sugar! Also, I used to naturally drink tons of water all day because I was always thirsty. After I started Nardil I no longer ever felt thirsty! Unless I force myself to, I really only want to drink probably one glass of water per day...such a strange side effect. Now I just want to drink coffee all day. Coffee has no effect on me. Previously 2 cups and I'd be too nervous and jittery to function. Now I can litterly drink coffee all day, any time of day and I still feel the same, I can even fall asleep right after several cups. Sorry, nobody asked about all of this!


Interesting!


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## zendog78 (Jan 27, 2010)

sadness said:


> Question.
> 
> Lots of people get extreme fatigue while on Nardil at the beginning as well as Hypomania.
> 
> ...


Stay awake all night and into the next day and you will notice you become somewhat hypomanic. People who are bipolar can be awake for days and just driven like zombies on speed - The mania fighting the fatigue. 
Its quite something to behold


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## ShyNardilUser (Jul 22, 2014)

Hypomania is just a low level of mania...basically you're just going to feel really good and happy, nothing crazy, but maybe just happier than ever for no apparent reason. That's how it was for me. 

You can definitely be happy and tired at the same time. I never had insomnia. I n the beggining I could literally sleep all day and night. Then it got to the point where I would just doze off during desk work and driving and while watching tv at night. I still have a hard time staying awake watching tv at night now. But the initial tiredness was not like regular tiredness to me, it was a really pleasant feeling! And naps felt really refreshing. No grogginess like before Nardil. I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything by having to nap all the time. Nothing could have felt better. 

Nardil has made me into a morning person. I can easily get up at 6 am now, and I never want to sleep in on the weekend. i just feel rested when I get up. That started early on too, glad it hasn't gone away because it's really helpful for getting to work on time everyday!


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## ShyNardilUser (Jul 22, 2014)

I bumped up from 60mg to 90mg a week ago (without permission) after being on 60 for about 10 weeks (?). I'm not noticing anything. WTF. I hope something happens...side effects, positive effects something! Most of my 60mg side effects were gone...and I did get some benefit from 60, so I would have thought the benefit would increase at 90 within 3 days or so.


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