# We weren't meant to live in "Modern Society"



## asdlkm (Jul 31, 2010)

Didn't know which forum to post this in but. . .

I've been kicking this idea around in my head a bit.

Depression and other mental disorders are rampant in today's world, and I think the fact society has developed into such a complex/connected/whateveryougetit thing is the reason for it.

From being overly-stimulated when we're kids with television and video games to the internet and cell phones having a gigantic impact on how we process things. How we're crammed into cities of millions as opposed to the small groups you see with every other species on the planet.

I know I sound like I'm throwing down the first glove in a debate but that's not what I'm going for, I was actually wondering if anyone could point me to some reading on the subject. Kind of interested on reading what someone who knows what they're talking about things about it. I'm sure it's got to be out there, but I (despite being a self-proclaimed googlemaster) can't seem to pinpoint anything at the minute. Any help would be [email protected]!


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## Reflector (Sep 4, 2010)

Well, I'm reading a book called "The Age of Missing Information" right now. It kind of goes along with what you said about television and video games. TV supposedly revolutionized the way information travels, so it ideally would allow its viewers to become more educated and knowledgeable. But, as the book points out, it actually has somewhat of a reverse effect, leaving us alienated from true nature and void of any real culture. It's a great book, I would definitely recommend it.


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## ColdWar (Aug 6, 2010)

One of my favorite quotes below.

"Culture, born of life, ultimately kills life."

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject. Perhaps I will reply again later.


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## Reflector (Sep 4, 2010)

max4225 said:


> If I had a time machine I'd probably strand myself in some old Celtic village hundreds of years ago. Harvest festivals, beer, handfasting. It sounds more straightforward, feels more like home. It's easy in modern society to not interact with people much, especially in a large city.


Yeah, I totally agree with you. Actually, I think any period in time before television arrived would be much better. TV sort of opens the door for alienation, I think. If I had to choose, I would probably go back and live with the Mayans or a people like that. It seems like they were just connected to eachother and to nature in a completely different way than we can even imagine. They had no TV or internet to drown out reality. I dunno, just a thought.


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## Lumi (Aug 21, 2010)

Yes, totally. I was almost 2 weeks on my moms cabin and I was huges better .. I wish I could live place like that :yes . I am depressed and sick when I have to be in town, this is not place for human like me. I know some people enjoy live in town but all this noice gives me migraine attacks, I cannot focus anything, I am restless, pressured, this city environment is just awfull for me... I want to breath, I need to get fresh air, I need to hear voices of nature, I want to see trees, I want to walk in peace. I want to stalk bats and make strechings on the beach of pond, I want to carry wood and water and grow plants...  My mention was bring some tree babies to my apartment but car was too full for that. I know it is too dry but even a little time, even a couple of trees, LOL.. Already the fact I have to keep my curtains close all the time and there is not light enough (yes I have the sun lamp and candless and stuff but I need daylight and see out of window!) and more complaiting but I am depressed, this is awful place to live. I try to go hobbies but I am too tired and too depressed to enjoyed of them...


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## SASlayer (Sep 4, 2010)

Because we evolved from living in tribal times we still have this anxiety feeling when it comes to approaching big groups. Think about it, in tribal times we lived in a small village which mainly consisted of our ancestors and people from your bloodline, you would be used to this safety and not have to worry about making conversation with anyone. The world has since evolved into massive jungle of billions upon billions of people. While some people adapted to this environment (the loud outgoing people, popular crowd), some are not so used to it (shyness). It is not your fault, it is the process of evolution that has simply evolved too fast for us to adapt


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

social interaction has been replaced with machines


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## pegger18636 (Aug 3, 2010)

Hmm I have a few thoughts on this subject. While it's safer to assume that we weren't meant to live in "modern society" it's hard to say how exactly we would've done in past societies unless we were to have actually experienced it. Maybe we would've done better... but it's also possible there's alot we haven't considered or don't know about them and we would've done worse. I think this also applies to the present even, how much different would we be, what kind of lives would we be living if we were born into one of the much different cultures that exist in foreign countries of the world in the present day??

To sort of elaborate along the lines of what the last guy said, maybe the way humans have evolved throughout more recent thousands of years, with our civilized cultures with advanced medicine and law enforcement etc., maybe this has allowed us to defeat the process of natural selection.... and still be around to survive and reproduce where in a much different time we wouldn't have been able to survive. I realize this is a very simplistic view but I think it could apply to alot of the disease present in the present world, of course it's only one of a million factors...
On the other hand, just because we have SA in today's world doesn't mean that were actually weak or couldn't have thrived in an older culture where social and cultural norms weren't so strict. Crap, i'm starting to ramble.

Okay well lastly, yeah I think childhood is an especially important and crucial time for shaping and learning social skills. Some kids are less exposed to others these days, parenting is always a factor too though, *and I think if anything tv and the internet and technology provides a way to enable socially shy people to continue avoiding their problems longer, but the trait is inherent before hand and not actually the result of these things. Imagine everything in your life right now was the same, but there was no tv interent or telephones. I know the scenario doesn't really make sense but think about it, would you be better or worse off?? Would you have been more motivated to actually make changes instead of looking for answers from these sources or using them as distraction, or would you feel even more lost and hopeless??*


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

I think along the same lines also. For centuries we've lived in a world where we did physical jobs and ate real food.

Now we do mental jobs, are confined by small apartments, tons of cities that have no relevance to nature, and eat artificially manufactured food like diet coke, low fat yogurt, margarine, sweet & low, hotdogs, cheezwiz, msg.

Our bodies/brains haven't had enough time to adapt to modern changing society.

Here is something I found real quick:
http://www.switched.com/2009/02/04/technology-leads-to-anxiety-and-depression-studies-show/


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## NameIsNotImportant (Aug 30, 2010)

I thought about that when I was younger, I came to the conclusion that our brain can cope with it and adjust, much like all your ancestors had to do. It's true that it's easier becoming stressed in todays society, but your lifestyle doesn't necessarily have to be the heavy factor.


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## mjhea0 (Oct 1, 2009)

pegger18636 said:


> Hmm I have a few thoughts on this subject. While it's safer to assume that we weren't meant to live in "modern society" it's hard to say how exactly we would've done in past societies unless we were to have actually experienced it. Maybe we would've done better... but it's also possible there's alot we haven't considered or don't know about them and we would've done worse. I think this also applies to the present even, how much different would we be, what kind of lives would we be living if we were born into one of the much different cultures that exist in foreign countries of the world in the present day??


This is an interesting thought. I often fantasize about running off to India or Thailand to live on an ashram or something. I guess I fantasize in general about immersing myself in something new, thinking that will completely change who I am. I grew up in a suburb of Kansas City and constantly dreamed about living somewhere else -- anywhere, in fact. I thought that by running I could leave my problems behind. So, I studied in Poland, and then after college I moved to NYC, finally settling in San Francisco. I still dream of quitting everything and going on some around the world journey.

I think it's more important for me to stay wherever I'm at in life and try to work on my problems there instead of running away. Dreaming about living away from cities or in another time may sound great in theory, but does wondering about it do any good, especially since the latter is impossible?

Living in cities can be difficult, but they do have their advantages, like easy access to social services, therapists, and like-minded people. As populations grow, cities are the inevitable choice for people. They are better for the planet too -- because everything is centralized.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

mjhea0 said:


> This is an interesting thought. I often fantasize about running off to India or Thailand to live on an ashram or something. I guess I fantasize in general about immersing myself in something new, thinking that will completely change who I am. I grew up in a suburb of Kansas City and constantly dreamed about living somewhere else -- anywhere, in fact. I thought that by running I could leave my problems behind. So, I studied in Poland, and then after college I moved to NYC, finally settling in San Francisco. I still dream of quitting everything and going on some around the world journey.


You can never outrun yourself. I've found that out by moving alot also.


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## sadeyes (Aug 22, 2010)

I believe social anxiety is an evolutionary trait that helped our ancestors thrive in a less civilized world. Our ancestors would have been self sufficient, not wanting to rely on strangers, probably small time farmers, with a knack at inventiveness.

If my ancestor with social anxiety was in a small tribe, and another tribe approached, my ancestor would have possibly hid, or escaped far away to less "congested" places, while the other tribes people stayed, and took a chance at being killed or enslaved.

I think it's our primitivie brains that cause us to fear things in the modern world, that are really not deadly. Our primitive brains are trying to protect us, but it mostly hampers us in this modern world.


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## mjhea0 (Oct 1, 2009)

sadeyes said:


> I think it's our primitivie brains that cause us to fear things in the modern world, that are really not deadly. Our primitive brains are trying to protect us, but it mostly hampers us in this modern world.


Which begs the question, When will our minds catch up to the modern world? For those who live in cities and have sustenance provided for them, we don't need such a strong fight-or-flight. Our culture has changed so much in just the past hundred years. Evolution is such a slow process, though; will it ever be able to keep up with how quickly our lives are changing?


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

I don't believe in idealizing the past. While there are valid qualms about the modern world, how happy would someone honestly be possibly never leaving a home village in their entire lifetime? Working as a peasant with no rights (LITERALLY no rights)? Worrying about the next invading army? Trivial medical conditions (by today's standards) killing you or people you know? Not expected to live past 30 years?

I'll pass.


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## BetaBoy90 (Jan 5, 2010)

You want togetherness in a close knit community? Join a nudist colony, it will cure your social anxiety do to shock therapy and you'll be so close with others you'll be able able to appreciate their body odours within a week of your arrival.


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## HedraHelix (Sep 6, 2010)

I think you'd enjoy authors Daniel Quinn (Beyond Civilization and Ishmael) and maybe even Derrick Jensen (Culture of Make Believe and Endgame). I love these two. Look them up.


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## mjhea0 (Oct 1, 2009)

HedraHelix said:


> I think you'd enjoy authors Daniel Quinn (Beyond Civilization and Ishmael) and maybe even Derrick Jensen (Culture of Make Believe and Endgame). I love these two. Look them up.


John Zerzan is another good one. Check out _Against Civilization_.


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## HedraHelix (Sep 6, 2010)

mjhea0 said:


> John Zerzan is another good one. Check out _Against Civilization_.


Yes! I have been meaning to read him for a while now.


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## HedraHelix (Sep 6, 2010)

SilentLoner said:


> I don't believe in idealizing the past. While there are valid qualms about the modern world, how happy would someone honestly be possibly never leaving a home village in their entire lifetime? Working as a peasant with no rights (LITERALLY no rights)? Worrying about the next invading army? Trivial medical conditions (by today's standards) killing you or people you know? Not expected to live past 30 years?
> 
> I'll pass.


I understand what you're saying but I think you're speaking of a time where civilization existed meaning that there was slavery, exploitation, and the importation of resources to cities/towns from other areas in order for the city to sustain itself. This practice goes back to the agricultural revolution. From my point of view this is the beginning of the modern world (goes much further back than feudalism and slavery which is an invention of civilization and domestication). Civilization has it perks of course but the price (I feel) is too high.

As pointed out by Daniel Quinn, humans do better when arranged in tribes just like lions do best in prides, or antelope in herds, or wolves in packs, or chimps in troops. It just makes more sense.

Our "communities" have gotten too large and consolidation of power and accumulation of wealth by the few has created an authoritarian way of life as opposed to what we had as tribal people. There was no such thing as "rights" because we were truly free.


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

HedraHelix said:


> As pointed out by Daniel Quinn, humans do better when arranged in tribes just like lions do best in prides, or antelope in herds, or wolves in packs, or chimps in troops. It just makes more sense.


Define "better."



> Our "communities" have gotten too large and consolidation of power and accumulation of wealth by the few has created an authoritarian way of life as opposed to what we had as tribal people. There was no such thing as "rights" because we were truly free.


Even tribes have rules and expectations. And harsh punishments for those who break them. Believe me, I've had to study plenty (athropologist in training here) and their ways can get pretty complicated.

You wouldn't have much rights either if a neighboring tribe decides to raid your group and capture some people.

Relatively free, not absolutely free. That is always what freedom has meant in terms of social contracts, whether civilization or tribal. Absolute freedom means leaving the group and heading off on your own.


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## HedraHelix (Sep 6, 2010)

Define better?... Decentralized. Environmentally sustainable. More natural. I hate using that term "natural" when describing behavior though. This is the way humans have lived for the vast majority of all human history. This is not necessarily about going back to "primitivism" but creating something new and using tribalism as a model for human interaction. People do this now. They create intentional communities that have varying degrees of self-sustainability. People also come together for shared love of something and share equally in the money they get from creating things as an alternative business model. People are learning about permaculture. 

I'm not saying its perfect. But I have so many problems with the way society is set up today. Modern civilization is based on slavery and exploitation, just like all civilizations have been.

What I'm saying is, certain things like health care become necessary when we create an unhealthy way of life. We need political representatives when we create a large undemocratic state. Things have gotten too huge and impersonal and it's affecting us mentally, physically, spiritually etc. I feel isolated in part because I feel I don't have a place in society. That I have nothing worthwhile to contribute because no one will pay me $$ to write poetry, or make art, or rescue animals. Not enough to live off of. But these things are of value to me! Much more so than being a saleswoman or fill-in-the-blank-whith-a-respectable-job. We must pay to exist, instead of actually living. We have no community. Most of us spend our lives occupied with jobs we hate. How does this affect global psychological health when our actions are not fully owned by ourselves?

It's very alienating. I can't imagine this type of phenomenon in a tribe (alienation, mass suicides, depression, slavery, starving people right next to wealthy people etc). If it did it was probably not a tribe and at a different level of "progress" or "development."

I'm no expert though. I study sociology not anthropology. Sorry this post is so long. I think I got carried away….society makes me angry and depressed.

I love all your quotes by the way. Ani rocks.


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

HedraHelix said:


> I love all your quotes by the way. Ani rocks.


 Thanks!


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## introvert33 (Jun 23, 2010)

> society makes me angry and depressed.


ditto, but I'm with silentloner on this one, I don't think going back is the answer


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## HedraHelix (Sep 6, 2010)

introvert33 said:


> ditto, but I'm with silentloner on this one, I don't think going back is the answer


Yeah I don't think "going back" is the answer either. Instead, like I was saying in my last post, I think we should follow the model of tribalism. Back in the day you were born into your tribe. Today we can _create_ a tribe. And not in a primitive way if that's not your thing. I was thinking more along the lines of intentional communities/eco-villages among other ideas.

But given the choice between living today if nothing changed and living then....I think I'd rather live like the human animal that I am. I don't think I'd have SA, depression, acne, a job I hate and I don't care about, wouldn't have to shave, pay bills, keep up with the jones's etc.


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## Hello22 (Feb 10, 2010)

Ya i agree, i think its because modern life is too busy/ hectic, and i often find it hard to keep up


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## Typical Guy (Mar 30, 2009)

HedraHelix said:


> I think you'd enjoy authors Daniel Quinn (Beyond Civilization and Ishmael) and maybe even Derrick Jensen (Culture of Make Believe and Endgame). I love these two. Look them up.


I loved _Ishmael_, it really changed the way I view the world. I also read some of John Zerzan's work. I don't agree with everything he says, but he has some very interesting ideas.


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## Hamtown (Jun 10, 2010)

I think we are incredibly isolated "so close but yet so far".You go out on the train and no one knows each other your all complete strangers.Then we are clouded with tv, computers, mobiles, social networking, video games, the media, basically the whole environment of technology.When i go into the city i start to feel so drained of energy for some reason, when i'm around nature and less man made things i am alot more relaxed and calm minded.


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## kid a (Aug 26, 2010)

I really agree with this. as weird as it sounds i dont think ill let my kids watch tv and use the internet to much where they depend on technology for everything they do and i watch the shows now that are on today and i know its not just paranoia these shows are full of subliminal msgs and dont even teach the right things anymore... i want my kids to be outside alot of the time exploring, imagining, thinking openly and not crammed into one big government /society mind fck.


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## Banana Cream (Aug 22, 2010)

Yes, technology seems to cause similar to or the same ills it can claim to cure. The food industry, disposables, corporate law, I could find so many things that affect quality of life from modern living... even our roads are made with cancer causing toxins (hydrocarbon).

I'm not going to look back because every time and place has positives and negatives. But there can be a movement to bring back the good things, common sense- of course reducing our harmful behaviors.


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## The Sleeping Dragon (Sep 29, 2011)

Evolution can't keep up with technology. But given enough time we _will_ adapt to our technological environment biologically.


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## anguruto (Dec 2, 2013)

Fahrenheit 451 is a good book from the 50's representing your views.


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## march_hare (Jan 18, 2006)

Anarcho primitivism \o/


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