# The things i'm trying and going to try



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Currently i'm taking 50mg Sulpiride a day and started taking 40mg of buspar today.
I will probebly lower my buspar dose first tough as taking 40mg at once made me feel like total crap, however i do think it may be effective at higher doses if my serotonin autoreceptors desentisize. I can totally understand how ppl think this is crap wich might cause ppl to stop taking it too soon.
Will try doses up to 120mg.

Trivastal is coming my way, its a non sedating dopamine agonist, Provigil for extra motivation as i probebly wouldnt be able to get an amphetamine.

GHB --> I just use it as an euphorant, it doesnt work for my social anxiety, but i can use it responsible, max 2 doses every day.

Will probebly try to get agomelatine in the future.

AMT and 4FMP are coming my way, i would also experimet with them in daily low doses.

Complete list of things i may give a try:
Serotonin
Buspar--> 5HT1A agonist
Remeron--> May try it with betahistine to counteract its histamine antagonis action.
Agomelatine --> good 5HT2C antagonist
Ondansetron --> 5HT3 antagonis
Metoclopramide --> 5HT4 agonist
Tianeptine --> to lower serotonin
Cyproheptadine
AMT--> 5HT1A, 5HT4, 5HT2A agonist, but i might try to block its 5HT2A agonism with cyproheptadine
4FMP--> A mix between amphetamine and a small dose MDMA, i may try to use it daily in low doses as the only thing that seemed to work was MDMA for me but do not try this at home!!! Possible serotonin depletion could happen wich could make anxiety and depression alot worse for the long term!!

Dopamine
Deprenyl
Wellbutrin
Amphetamine
Ritalin
Trivastal or Mirapex as dopamine agonists
Amineptine

Gaba
GHB
Etifoxine --> β2 β3 agonist

CCK
Proglumide --> CCK antagonis, has an anti anxiety effect.

Sigma agonists
Opipramol
noscapine

Nootropics
Cerebrolysin --> The most effective nootropic availeble, great anxiolotic effects have been reported. You have to inject it tough.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Today i've taken half the buspar dose as those brainzaps were way too intensen, today i only got bad brainzaps after taking it but they stopped, i only notice a reduced feeling of wellbeing now. Again completely reminds me of how i felt the week after taking MDMA.


Edit: think i'm just gonna stop taking this crap, will try it another time in combination with pindolol, as i dont have enough prescribed and its much cheaper if i order it online.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Even if they theoretically don't interact, some of them haven't even been studied that much on a singular basis, let alone in a massive combination. I think you are pushing your luck by taking so many drugs, especially those without a long safety record.

I went through a similar period of taking many different drugs & supplements in the past, and now my brain is totally messed up... It's hard to know exactly what caused it, but as a rule, making yourself a lab rat is never a good thing.

By the way, what is your plan to prevent tolerance? Many there are susceptible to this, but for example, GHB only took several months to cause tolerance for me and the resulting anhedonia never fully disappeared...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> Even if they theoretically don't interact, some of them haven't even been studied that much on a singular basis, let alone in a massive combination. I think you are pushing your luck by taking so many drugs, especially those without a long safety record.
> 
> I went through a similar period of taking many different drugs & supplements in the past, and now my brain is totally messed up... It's hard to know exactly what caused it, but as a rule, making yourself a lab rat is never a good thing.
> 
> By the way, what is your plan to prevent tolerance? Many there are susceptible to this, but for example, GHB only took several months to cause tolerance for me and the resulting anhedonia never fully disappeared...


Thx for your response.

If i got GBL, i usually take around 2 doses a day, and i've allways taken very low doses and never really noticed a tolerance, but it doesnt work for my anxiety anywhay, it makes sitting at home euphoric but i'm still afraid of social interaction, i really have no clue why this is, as like everything reports it to be working...
Maybe because it doesnt really work for my anxiety i never abused it, if it made me feel normal as MDMA i may have gotten crazy over it.

I've also tried hydrocodone for my anxiety but it didnt work either, wich is a shame as with proglumide/memantine and naltrexone it may be possible to use opiates on a daily basis.

I'm also not planning on taking them altogheter, altough i allways want to take as much things as possible "tuning the brain". Well to be honest, if i had the money i would take them all togheter, but i just cant afford it.

The only things that seem to work for my anxiety are MDMA and amphetamine, but i tried street amphetamine in low doses in the past but that seemed to intensifie my anxiety, it only kills my anxiety when i'm taking doses wich make me high, wich i refuse to do on a daily basis.

MDMA in treshold doses works tough, as does MCPP wich kills my anxiety for 50%. MCPP makes me feel normal, but at the same time i'm still not comfarteble in social situations, maybe because the 5HT2C agonism kills some of the benefits.

I refuse to take MAOI's as i would end up dead by taking MDMA when drunk or something like that.

This would probebly my first stack:
AMT --> Was used as an antidepressant in the SSRI called indopan.
Very low dose 4FMP --> as an amphetamine replacement and weak serotonin releaser, it releases serotonin but doesnt deplete it.
Agomelatine --> 5HT2C antagonis
Provigol --> For motivation and energie
Trivastal --> Motivation, energie and help with social anxiety.

I ordered all of these except agomelatine, i might try to get it from a docter.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Can you also tell me what happened? What were you taking when your brain got messed up?


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

Agomelatine is awesome. in my opinion. Unfortunately i live in the US, so i have to pay like 115 dollars for it. but its great in reducing anxiety and depression. i definetly recommend it. However, you have to be careful, because it is a melatonin agonist. Melatonin regulates the bodies sleep/wake cycle, so if you take too much agomelatine at the wrong time....maybe you could end up with some weird problems from disrupting the circadian rhythm


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> Agomelatine is awesome. in my opinion. Unfortunately i live in the US, so i have to pay like 115 dollars for it. but its great in reducing anxiety and depression. i definetly recommend it. However, you have to be careful, because it is a melatonin agonist. Melatonin regulates the bodies sleep/wake cycle, so if you take too much agomelatine at the wrong time....maybe you could end up with some weird problems from disrupting the circadian rhythm


Thank you, i havent read much reports about agomelatine for anxiety. Personally i see the melatonin agonism as a benefit to deepen sleep, melatine also hasnt been shown to be bad for someones health so i think it's going to be fine.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Thx for your response.
> 
> If i got GBL, i usually take around 2 doses a day, and i've allways taken very low doses and never really noticed a tolerance, but it doesnt work for my anxiety anywhay, it makes sitting at home euphoric but i'm still afraid of social interaction, i really have no clue why this is, as like everything reports it to be working...
> Maybe because it doesnt really work for my anxiety i never abused it, if it made me feel normal as MDMA i may have gotten crazy over it.
> ...


Just a suggestion,- i know it sounds like it doesn't matter, but it would be really wise to check the CYP enzymes responsible for each drug's metabolism. Because Many drugs can be metabolized by the same enzyme, take CYP2D6, for example. And some drugs can can inhibit the enzyme, so you could end up with a dangerously high concentration of some drug, and it would be hard to tell what drugs was causing an interaction......unfortunately, i am an idiot, and i neglected to check the CYP metabolism thingys....and i almost killed myself accidentaly. And i had no idea what or which of the 6 different things i was taking was causing the interaction.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> Just a suggestion,- i know it sounds like it doesn't matter, but it would be really wise to check the CYP enzymes responsible for each drug's metabolism. Because Many drugs can be metabolized by the same enzyme, take CYP2D6, for example. And some drugs can can inhibit the enzyme, so you could end up with a dangerously high concentration of some drug, and it would be hard to tell what drugs was causing an interaction......unfortunately, i am an idiot, and i neglected to check the CYP metabolism thingys....and i almost killed myself accidentaly. And i had no idea what or which of the 6 different things i was taking was causing the interaction.


Yes, i didnt think of that at all, thank you for mentioning this


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

rocknroll714 said:


> I do NOT recommend you try 4-fluoroamphetamine (4-FA). The para-substituted amphetamines are dangerous territory. Many of them are known to produce severe and permanent serotonergic neurotoxicity with just a single dose, especially the -halogenated derivatives (-bromo, -chloro, -fluoro, -iodo). 4-FA has been shown to be the least neurotoxic of the four, but I still wouldn't go anywhere near it; and yes, it is still quite significantly brain-damaging. Not to mention the para-substituted amphetamines are not known to produce entactogenic effects (or the so-called MDMA-like "magic"), unlike the methylenedioxy-substituted compounds, potentially as a result of having a higher reuptake inhibition efficacy relative to releasing efficacy (as in, they're more RI-like in comparison to MDxx which are more RA-like; hence, lower autoreceptor bypass and greater SSRI-like similarity).
> 
> I recommend you stick with alpha-alkylated tryptamines, methylenedioxy-substituted aminoindanes, and some of the other compounds like indanylaminopropane if you want a good and safe serotonin releaser. Refer to the list I sent you in PM. Seriously, it is not ****ing worth the consequences to screw up and irreversibly thrash the mood and anxiety-associated pathways of your brain even worse than they already are.


According to this study it doesnt permanently deplete serotonin:

But i'l try AMT on its own first, may be good enough..


> Comparison of 4-chloro-, 4-bromo- and 4-fluoroamphetamine in rats: Drug levels in brain and effects on brain serotonin metabolism
> 
> R. W. Fuller, J. C. Baker, K. W. Perry and B. B. Molloy
> 
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

rocknroll714 said:


> 4-Fluoroamphetamine has affinity values of 939 ± 76, 28.0 ± 1.8, and 51.5 ± 1.7 at SERT, NET, and DAT, respectively. So in other words, it's a relatively weak serotonin releaser, and on account of its lower SERT affinity, produces significantly less serotonergic neurotoxicity in comparison to related drugs like 4-chloroamphetamine and 4-methylamphetamine, but still likely more so than amphetamine or methamphetamine.
> 
> Source (for the affinities): http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/jpet.104.080101v1.pdf
> 
> So even if it's only relatively mildly neurotoxic, it's too imbalanced to be useful if you ask me. It's essentially an NDRA, being some 33-fold lower of a 5-HT releaser than NE, and 18-fold lower of a 5-HT releaser than DA.


Its wort a try i gues.. (yes i'm very stubborn).
From the experiences i've read about this it feels like a "social stimulant", a cross between amphetamine and some MDMA.

maybe it just releases enough serotonin to be social tough, i'm not looking for real magic on a daily basis, just something that boosts my neurotransmittes enough to kill my anxiety.
The long half life is a big plus too.
And IMO neurotoxicity would be extremely mild if i just take 15mg a day, compared to big recreational doses.


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## eva26687 (Sep 28, 2009)

*What has your experience with Buspirone been like?*

I've been taking Buspirone for two weeks. I'm taking 15mg - 2 pills AM, 2 pills PM. I get vertigo and I think it's making me feel way more depressed. I cry all the time for no reason, I feel guilty, and everything feels hopeless. Did you ever feel that way? Is that normal? Does it go away with time?

Just curious about your experience, thanks


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

eva said:


> I've been taking Buspirone for two weeks. I'm taking 15mg - 2 pills AM, 2 pills PM. I get vertigo and I think it's making me feel way more depressed. I cry all the time for no reason, I feel guilty, and everything feels hopeless. Did you ever feel that way? Is that normal? Does it go away with time?
> 
> Just curious about your experience, thanks


I felt like complete crap, didnt make me feel mental worse tough, but your dose is way to low, i dont think buspar would work in doses lower then 45 mg.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

So i managed to order some MDAI, its a non neurotoxic mdma analogue described as an antidepressant, recreational it doenst seem exciting at all as it doesnt product much of a high, but to me it did sound very exciting.

I will experiment with taking a daily low dose of it, i know MDMA lasts me feeling normal 12 hours after mdma stopped working so maybe MDAI does the same thing, needing me to only taking 1 dose a day!

I do NOT recommend this to anyone as its very experimental, it could cause severe symptons of serotonin downregulation/depleten, i'm crazy enoug to give it a try tough.

I'm thinking of adding in Desoxypipradrol for stimulation and motivation. AMT and 4FMP are also coming my way so i'l experiment a few weeks with them to find out what is the best combination.
MDAI does seem alot more appealing then 4FMP for my purpose.

An close related analogue of MDAI called MMAI has been researched as a potential antidepressant:


> 5-Methoxy-6-methyl-2-aminoindane (MMAI), is a drug and research chemical developed in the 1990s by a team led by David E. Nichols at Purdue University. It acts as a non-neurotoxic highly selective serotonin releasing agent (SSRA) in animals and a putative empathogen in humans.[1][2][3] It has been shown to relieve stress-induced depression in rats more robustly than sertraline.[4] It has been suggested that SSRAs like MMAI and 4-MTA could be developed as novel antidepressants with a faster onset of action and superior efficacy to current antidepressants such as the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs).[5] MMAI is closely related to MDAI and MDMAI.


IMO compounds like that could be extremely effective fast acting antidepressants/anxiolotics.

I know those compounds could cause euphoria in high doses but i keep GBL to do that, I beleive GBL is the best candidate for hedonism.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> So i managed to order some MDAI, its a non neurotoxic mdma analogue described as an antidepressant, recreational it doenst seem exciting at all as it doesnt product much of a high, but to me it did sound very exciting.
> 
> I will experiment with taking a daily low dose of it, i know MDMA lasts me feeling normal 12 hours after mdma stopped working so maybe MDAI does the same thing, needing me to only taking 1 dose a day!
> 
> ...


I hope you have the necessary meds (eg. benzos, haloperidol, carvedilol, cyproheptadine...) and experience to react correctly if something goes wrong when experimenting with all those substances you listed above. If you want to use potent drugs like Desoxy you should know that relatively small measurement errors can cause pretty severe OD symptoms (insomnia for days, psychosis...).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Medline said:


> I hope you have the necessary meds (eg. benzos, haloperidol, carvedilol, cyproheptadine...) and experience to react correctly if something goes wrong when experimenting with all those substances you listed above. If you want to use potent drugs like Desoxy you should know that relatively small measurement errors can cause pretty severe OD symptoms (insomnia for days, psychosis...).


Thx for your response.
I have experience with drugs (i used to take MDMA twice a week for 2 years), i also have some experience with amphetamine so i do know what kind of insomnia they could cause:b). 
I will keep benzo's at hand to let me sleep:yes, I will also order cyproheptadine. Its 5HT2A antagonism is also of intrest to me.

I have done an experiment like this with sreet amphetamine before but it didnt really work in normal doses (10mg) and made me paranoid, I've also tried MDPV in the past but it made me waay to paranoid and intensified my anxiety, i beleive that one is bad for anxiety but better for ADHD like conditions.

Are you planning on taking desoxy again medline? I did read it worked for you for a while.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Remeron--> May try it with betahistine to counteract its histamine antagonis action.


Why not just use Modafinil? it's pro-histaminergic properties should counteract mirtazapine induced daytime lethargy pretty well.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

jim_morrison said:


> Why not just use Modafinil? it's pro-histaminergic properties should counteract mirtazapine induced daytime lethargy pretty well.


Hmm didnt think of that, at this point i'm unsure tough wheter i would go on remeron, i'm experimenting with other things first.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Thx for your response.
> I have experience with drugs (i used to take MDMA twice a week for 2 years), i also have some experience with amphetamine so i do know what kind of insomnia they could cause:b).
> I will keep benzo's at hand to let me sleep:yes, I will also order cyproheptadine. Its 5HT2A antagonism is also of intrest to me.
> 
> ...


How do you know the exact dose (10mg) of street amphetamine?  I will go the low dose selegiline + methylphenidate route and add clonazepam + carvedilol. I have everything except for the Ritalin, but my Pdoc promised to prescibe it next time and I don't need high doses because of the mao-b inhibition from the selegiline.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Medline said:


> How do you know the exact dose (10mg) of street amphetamine?  I will go the low dose selegiline + methylphenidate route and add clonazepam + carvedilol. I have everything except for the Ritalin, but my Pdoc promised to prescibe it next time and I don't need high doses because of the mao-b inhibition from the selegiline.


I dont, i know taking street amphetamine was a very bad idea, i didnt even have a scale to weigh it out so i took just a small bit. This time i'm going to buy a scale tough, the chemicals i order are also going to pure so i would allways know my dose.

Anywhay good luck with your meds


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

Medline said:


> How do you know the exact dose (10mg) of street amphetamine?  I will go the low dose selegiline + methylphenidate route and add clonazepam + carvedilol. I have everything except for the Ritalin, but my Pdoc promised to prescibe it next time and I don't need high doses because of the mao-b inhibition from the selegiline.


oh i took that combo once.... the EMSAM patch, well like 6 mg of selegiline a day, plus Extended release ritalin --(concerta).....and it worked pretty awesomely for my concentration abilities. I would sit in front of the computer for 6 hours, not kidding, 6 hours, wouldnt move at all.....but it seemed as if my social anxiety wasn't really helped that much. So sometimes i supplemented (cough) with alcohol....that was pretty awesome. not much social anxiety then. A really nice combination...until i got tolerant to the ritalin. Do you think, possibly, maybe adderral would be a better choice than the ritalin? cuz according to RocknRoll...it would always be more potent, and you won't get tolerant as fast cuz its a releaser, not just a DAT blocker...i seemed to get tolerant to ritalin in 1-2 weeks. unfortunately......oh and i dunno if theres some other thread somewhere, but how exactly does DXM block adderall tolerance?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> oh i took that combo once.... the EMSAM patch, well like 6 mg of selegiline a day, plus Extended release ritalin --(concerta).....and it worked pretty awesomely for my concentration abilities. I would sit in front of the computer for 6 hours, not kidding, 6 hours, wouldnt move at all.....but it seemed as if my social anxiety wasn't really helped that much. So sometimes i supplemented (cough) with alcohol....that was pretty awesome. not much social anxiety then. A really nice combination...until i got tolerant to the ritalin. Do you think, possibly, maybe adderral would be a better choice than the ritalin? cuz according to RocknRoll...it would always be more potent, and you won't get tolerant as fast cuz its a releaser, not just a DAT blocker...i seemed to get tolerant to ritalin in 1-2 weeks. unfortunately......oh and i dunno if theres some other thread somewhere, but how exactly does DXM block adderall tolerance?


There are a few anecdotal reports of memantine blocking amphetamines tolerance. Other NMDA antagonists should also work like DXM. In my own experience amphetamine completely cures me of social anxiety while ritalin and alcohol dont. I'm talking about recreational doses tough as i've never taken adderall (in europe we dont have amphetamines).


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

yeah ive always thought that was so unfortunate. no adderral in europe....i mean its so weird how some medications are approved in some places and not in others. yeah i had the same experience....taking Concerta, i had more social anxiety..taking adderall, i had less social anxiety. well at least for a couple weeks. but when i took DXM with the Adderrall, it made the adderral work a whole lot better...and took away a ton of the anxiety and tolerance and insomnia issues. and DXM isnt a very clean NMDA antagonist anyways....with a better or stronger one, like alot of Memantine, amphetamines would be pretty sweet. but arent they both neurotoxic? some dudes did this study, they gave mice adderral, and weeks later, the mice still had deficits in brain dopamine levels. and after chronic administration, the mice showed clear motor deficits compared to the control mice. maybe it would be a good idea to take amphetamines with an MAO-B inhibitor....i guess that might be one cause of the possible neurotoxicity....either dopamine being broken down into MPP+ or whatever it is, or the other theory that adderral breaks down into free radicals


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> yeah ive always thought that was so unfortunate. no adderral in europe....i mean its so weird how some medications are approved in some places and not in others. yeah i had the same experience....taking Concerta, i had more social anxiety..taking adderall, i had less social anxiety. well at least for a couple weeks. but when i took DXM with the Adderrall, it made the adderral work a whole lot better...and took away a ton of the anxiety and tolerance and insomnia issues. and DXM isnt a very clean NMDA antagonist anyways....with a better or stronger one, like alot of Memantine, amphetamines would be pretty sweet. but arent they both neurotoxic? some dudes did this study, they gave mice adderral, and weeks later, the mice still had deficits in brain dopamine levels. and after chronic administration, the mice showed clear motor deficits compared to the control mice. maybe it would be a good idea to take amphetamines with an MAO-B inhibitor....i guess that might be one cause of the possible neurotoxicity....either dopamine being broken down into MPP+ or whatever it is, or the other theory that adderral breaks down into free radicals


Those studies allways take huge doses, i dont think it would be any problem when taking low therapeutic doses, but i havent looked true all those studies, just saw a discussion about this before. I tought memantine had some neuroprotective properties too.
I havent seen many ppl recommending ritalin for anxiety, lets see wheter it works for medline, if it doesnt ritalin is officially crap for anxiety...


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Those studies allways take huge doses, i dont think it would be any problem when taking low therapeutic doses, but i havent looked true all those studies, just saw a discussion about this before. I tought memantine had some neuroprotective properties too.
> I havent seen many ppl recommending ritalin for anxiety, lets see wheter it works for medline, if it doesnt ritalin is officially crap for anxiety...


Alone, low dose Ritalin + Selgiline might improve social drive (and other things) but could make anxiety even worse, therefor I add clonazepam + carvedilol.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Medline said:


> Alone, low dose Ritalin + Selgiline might improve social drive (and other things) but could make anxiety even worse, therefor I add clonazepam + carvedilol.


That could work, keep us updated.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Freesix88 said:


> I'm sure Medline will do well with Ritalin. For me Ritalin is a wonder med. If I take 10 mg and wait for half an hour my anxiety and depression mostly disappears. The Clonazepam also helps with anxiety but mostly with OCD and general anxiety. It doesn't boost my social drive like Ritalin does. Clonazepam with Ritalin is totally sweet. They should prescribe Ritalin more for *Social *anxiety. It's a really safe med too, but there are always people that have to abuse it (crush it and snort it) so that won't happen I'm afraid. Anything that's slightly abusive the goverment doesn't like. (except ciggies and alcohol [I already pay my taxes idiots  ) I hate that generalization that stimulants increase anxiety. This is not the case at all for me. Note: I also take Cymbalta. Be careful with selegiline and ritalin it's really really potent this combination.
> I once did 5 mg selegiline with 10 - 15 mg (I don't know it exactly anymore) and I expierenced the OD symptoms that Medline describes in this thread. I thought I was going to die.


I'll start low with 5mg Selegiline and 2,5mg Ritalin, measure my blood pressure and heart rate regularly, increase doses slowly just if necessary and have clonazepam and carvedilol (+ haloperidol) to be on the safe side.



Freesix88 said:


> Anyway good luck CrazyMed (you are really a bit *crazy *with a list like that haha j/k)
> 
> Some smart people on this people that will help you. Stay away from drugs that induce neurotoxicity like RocknRoll714 said. Buspar can be interesting at 120 mg. Don't do crazy combinations man.


I didn't want to be the first person who calls CrazyMed a little bit crazy (no offense ), but please slow down somewhat . And yes... I'm crazy too.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes i am a bit crazy, i also love partying too much lol
Being crazy is good!

I know the things i'm trying are a bit radical but it want to completely kill social anxiety. And i'm stubborn:b
I will try things seperate first. I know enough pharmacology to not come up with dangerous combinations.

Also i did try ritalin + GHB/Ritalin + xanax and ritalin + clonazepam in the past without any succes. I didnt mention it as my anxiety seems a bit hard to fix... so there's a big chance those combo's will work perfectly for many others.

I'm going to be the first person in history trying to daily take a serotonin releaser:twisted


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

Medline said:


> I'll start low with 5mg Selegiline and 2,5mg Ritalin, measure my blood pressure and heart rate regularly, increase doses slowly just if necessary and have clonazepam and carvedilol (+ haloperidol) to be on the safe side.
> 
> I didn't want to be the first person who calls CrazyMed a little bit crazy (no offense ), but please slow down somewhat . And yes... I'm crazy too.


RocknRoll found this one article that talked about how loperamide and haloperidol might cause neurotoxic effects on brain dopaminergic cells and stuff.....that the only reason loperamide doesnt cause parkinsons disease or other stuff is cuz it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. and as for haloperidol, i mean it causes so many parkinsonian type symptoms anyway at high doses.....what if it actually is causing parkinsons' disease.....but the side effects are labeled "EPS" instead. that would be so unfortunate......poor schizophrenic people 
http://www.springerlink.com/content/1a5dbp719afntvdq/

in regards to taking medications i think i might have a history of being almost as crazy as CrazyMed..but i had to change my views on medications when i had the interaction thingy...like now im obsessive about every medication...i dunno which is better. i actually was taking about 6 different things, and was planning on taking quite a bit more different things....i ordered stuff online, and was gonna like pop it all without regard.....i think god saved me from disaster lol.....my online order eventually came, but i was too scared to take any of it except the agomelatine....but my hope for the future is too be extremely crazy. ive always wanted to be such....but im too depressed to be crazy...hopefully soon i will be crazy. i look forward to it


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

rocknroll714 said:


> Nobody can top me.
> 
> I took Nardil and MDMA together and lived to tell about it!


I remember too well, also your Nardil + SSRI (I think it was Paxil) "experiment".  You definitely won the "who is more crazy contest". No offense... . Luckily it seems you have slowed down somethat.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Haha, rocknroll deifinatly is the winner

I received my "mimosa hostilis" by the way, so the first experiment i'm gonna conduct is with daily low doses of DMT:evil

I also got some salvia but thats for other purposes lol.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Haha, rocknroll deifinatly is the winner
> 
> I received my "mimosa hostilis" by the way, so the first experiment i'm gonna conduct is with daily low doses of DMT:evil
> 
> I also got some salvia but thats for other purposes lol.


Are you not worried about taking a 5-HT2B agonist regularly? I'm guessing DMT is a strong agonist at that receptor, like other psychedelics.

Salvia... When I tried it, it was a very unpleasant experience.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> Are you not worried about taking a 5-HT2B agonist regularly? I'm guessing DMT is a strong agonist at that receptor, like other psychedelics.
> 
> Salvia... When I tried it, it was a very unpleasant experience.


I can take agomelatine for its 5HT2B antagonism.

I like the short duration of salvia, LSD was the worst experience of my life.. It lasted from 2 hours afternoon till the next morning 8 o clock:no. But it did have a good effect on my life afterwards tough.
So if it goes wrong it will be over quick


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I can take agomelatine for its 5HT2B antagonism.


Agomelatine has a half life of < 2 hours, it won't work.



> I like the short duration of salvia, LSD was the worst experience of my life.. It lasted from 2 hours afternoon till the next morning 8 o clock:no. But it did have a good effect on my life afterwards tough.
> So if it goes wrong it will be over quick


LSD is probably a lot more enjoyable than salvia.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> Agomelatine has a half life of < 2 hours, it won't work.
> 
> LSD is probably a lot more enjoyable than salvia.


Hmm, will see i gotta try everything:b

About that 5HT2B agonis, i'l look for ways how to solve it...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I also stopped taking the sulpiride as it didnt seem to do any good, the first 2 days it gave me more energie but after that it just made me tired, tried both 25mg and 50mg doses.

I've just ordered some Desoxypipradrol to experiment with it, as adding a dopamine releaser to MDAI would make it neurotoxic.
The only thing i've got allready is mimosa hostilis (DMT) i will extract it this evening so i can do my first experiment tomorrow. Ppl have used it as an antidepressant in low doses before and DMT hasnt got any tolerance issues.

I've got, a few things coming my whay, i'm not going to add them all togheter but will experiment with a few things to work out what works best.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! I AM DOING CRAZY EXPERIMENTS!


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

euphoria said:


> Are you not worried about taking a 5-HT2B agonist regularly?


He's got a point, it's like you may aswell be taking Fen-Phen.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

jim_morrison said:


> He's got a point, it's like you may aswell be taking Fen-Phen.


Hmm, i wonder how big of an issue that is, AMT was used for 20 years as an antidepressant in the sovjet union. Gotta find something to counteract that tough..
Will first experiment to know wich chemicals work best. Maybe desoxy on its own with a benzo may be enough.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> Nobody can top me.
> 
> I took Nardil and MDMA together and lived to tell about it!


im never gonna win...i dont think im gonna try taking any paxil with my Parnate either....its still hard to believe u lived to tell about it. i took paxil 40mg for 1 year...and i had a small feeling of serotonin syndrome all the time sorta...sometimes itook it with 5htp...but nothing like an MAOI


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Haha, rocknroll deifinatly is the winner
> 
> I received my "mimosa hostilis" by the way, so the first experiment i'm gonna conduct is with daily low doses of DMT:evil
> 
> I also got some salvia but thats for other purposes lol.


be really careful with that stuff....lol and by the way, its one of the worst tastes youll ever experience. like bark, dirt, and concrete all mixed together....if you just grind the bark up in a coffeemaker and drink it with milk like i did. dude i guess people's minds are different....but DMT was really scary for me, not antidepressant at all, but maybe i potentiated it a little bit too much with Harmala Seeds. DMT is scary....really really scary... i took it at 7 in the morning, was still hallucinating at 5 o clock in the afternoon, and took risperdal to discontinue the trip.....i was actually hoping for it to cure my social anxiety. i was thinking it was gonna change my perceptions and i would be cured....it changed my perceptions but a little bit to strongly...dont take it with the Harmala or any other MAOI unless your totally prepared


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> be really careful with that stuff....lol and by the way, its one of the worst tastes youll ever experience. like bark, dirt, and concrete all mixed together....if you just grind the bark up in a coffeemaker and drink it with milk like i did. dude i guess people's minds are different....but DMT was really scary for me, not antidepressant at all, but maybe i potentiated it a little bit too much with Harmala Seeds. DMT is scary....really really scary


I'm planning on taking daily low doses, tripping is not the plan here I will be trying 1gram tomorrow.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I'm planning on taking daily low doses, tripping is not the plan here I will be trying 1gram tomorrow.


haha cool...its an interesting idea....one time i tried eating a cactus. i thought it might be one of the mescaline-containing ones..it wasnt it just tasted like green tea.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> haha cool...its an interesting idea....one time i tried eating a cactus. i thought it might be one of the mescaline-containing ones


A real trip is crazy, tried LSD once...:afr Most horrible experience ever, but it did have a positive effect on my life tough.

I've read a few experiences on daily dosing of DMT and apperantly it has the potential to completely eleminate dysthomia, depression and boost motivation, i'm wondering wheter it would work for social anxiety.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I received my AMT - 4FMP - Trivastal - Modafinil today, i'm a happy man!

Experimentation time!:evil


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I've just taking modafinil, i definatly like it, it provodes me with a clean boost in energie and clairty, it doesnt cause any euphoria like amphetamines tough. For social anxiety it doesnt work but it definatly makes me feel calmer (i'v got ADHD-I).
When i take a break from the more powerfull chemicals i will definatly take this one.

As for the other things i've got, i'm first gonna buy a scale so i can dose correctly, wich is very important for powerfull chemicals.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Hey guys, here's an update on what i'm doing.
I managed to get a job, i'm starting tomorrow
Tomorrow i'm gonna start taking the trivastal and will probebly add in memantine after a few days because i have got OCD and it should work for that.
After that i'm gonna start with AMT or 4FMP as i'm paranoid about building a tolerance to them so i'm gonna add in memantine first. Memantine has tolerance reducing properties.

I also have huge motivation issues so i'm hoping the trivastal is gonna help with that.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Hey guys, here's an update on what i'm doing.
> I managed to get a job, i'm starting tomorrow
> Tomorrow i'm gonna start taking the trivastal and will probebly add in memantine after a few days because i have got OCD and it should work for that.
> After that i'm gonna start with AMT or 4FMP as i'm paranoid about building a tolerance to them so i'm gonna add in memantine first. Memantine has tolerance reducing properties.
> ...


good 4 u getting a job man... i read this one study, that showed that OCD behaviors in rats can be caused by dopamine agonists..and that use of nicotine can attentuate the OCD-like behaviors. It would be interesting to see if the memantine could also block tolerance to nicotine also, because apparently NMDA is responsible for nicotine tolerance. Memantine sounds like a pretty cool drug...but does tolerance develop to its effects? I mean wouldn't NMDA just upregulate? Oh, and Memantine might also be a D2 agonist...so you could be getting a whole lot of D2 agonism with the Trivastal=memantine. it seems sometimes memantine has uncool side effects...and it has a super long half life, apparently....could be a good thing, if it works, or a bad thing, if it has bad side effects. Memantine might also even have posess reversible weak MAO inhibition


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> good 4 u getting a job man... i read this one study, that showed that OCD behaviors in rats can be caused by dopamine agonists..and that use of nicotine can attentuate the OCD-like behaviors. It would be interesting to see if the memantine could also block tolerance to nicotine also, because apparently NMDA is responsible for nicotine tolerance. Memantine sounds like a pretty cool drug...but does tolerance develop to its effects? I mean wouldn't NMDA just upregulate?


From all the anecdotal reports i've read theres no tolerance to memantine itself at all, altough tolerance to amphetamine could develop on memantine but it quickly goes away, and tolerance develops alot slower on memantine. Memantine should work for benzo's, amphetamines, opiates etc... Its also been shown to protect from braindamage caused by MDMA and methamphetamine.

As of nicotine, it in fact blocks the effects of nicotine.

Also i dont think a dopamine agonist would make my ocd whorse as a recreational dose of street amphetamine completely kills my OCD.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Can't wait to hear how the AMT goes, that's number one on my list of chemicals I want to try.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> Can't wait to hear how the AMT goes, that's number one on my list of chemicals I want to try.


I just hope it would make my day at work more enjoyable, 8 hours of work is hell for me:afr.



> Oh, and Memantine might also be a D2 agonist...so you could be getting a whole lot of D2 agonism with the Trivastal=memantine. it seems sometimes memantine has uncool side effects...and it has a super long half life, apparently....could be a good thing, if it works, or a bad thing, if it has bad side effects. Memantine might also even have posess reversible weak MAO inhibition


The first weak it has some side effects but that quickly goes away, and imo dopamine agonism is a good thing.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Dopamine agonism with NMDA antagonism could cause pretty bad psychosis. Since you're using agonists of D2-like receptors, it could be worse than general dopaminergics like Adderall which also have pro-cognitive D1 and co. Are you taking any nootropics?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> Dopamine agonism with NMDA antagonism could cause pretty bad psychosis. Since you're using agonists of D2-like receptors, it could be worse than general dopaminergics like Adderall which also have pro-cognitive D1 and co. Are you taking any nootropics?


Not taking any nootropics atm, hmm didnt know that NMDA antagonism and D agonisim togheter increases the risk of psychosis, have you got a source for that? May leave the trivastal out then.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Not taking any nootropics atm, hmm didnt know that NMDA antagonism and D agonisim togheter increases the risk of psychosis, have you got a source for that? May leave the trivastal out then.


Well, schizophrenia is linked to low NMDA activity and high dopamine activity, so the two combined looks like a perfect breeding ground for psychosis.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> Well, schizophrenia is linked to low NMDA activity and high dopamine activity, so the two combined looks like a perfect breeding ground for psychosis.


Allright thx, i'd better leave the trivastal out then.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Well i started with trivastal today but didnt notice that much apart from giving me some clean energie this morning, i wasnt as tired in the morning. Trivastal can take a month to start working tough. Could still take a while before i've got the memantine so i started with the trivastal.
Tomorrow i'm going to add in 5mg of AMT.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Today i added 5mg of AMT to my regime i did enjoy my work more and my mood is boosted but it doesnt work for my social anxiety, i do feel a slight psychedelic feeling wich should wear off soon.
AMT does improve my OCD tough so i will keep on taking it.
I'm betting things are gonna kick *** when i'm adding 4FMP or MDAI-Desoxy:yes. I know from experience that MDMA and amphetamine cure my social anxiety and LSD did not, so its not a big suprise AMT doesnt kill my anxiety, even tough its a serotonin releaser, i think its way too weak in doses around the 5MG.

AMT definatly is a potent antidepressant tough, kills any dysthemia right away. The russians knew it was great.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm gone stop taking the trivastal as it may interfere with my most important (or most promosing) treatments. Gonna add in AMT again monday and later ask my doc for memantine on which i will add 4FMP or MDAI.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I stopped taking the trivastal and felt better, i want to try my other compounds on there own first for a while, i havent tried AMT on itself yet only added it on trivastal which made me feel depressed because of reducing dopamine transmission (dopamine agonists only work in the long run).

Tomorrow i will only try AMT, and wednesday when i dont have to go to work i can try 4FMP.

And i just hope i find something to get me trough a 8 hour work day wich is just terrible...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ok so today i tried the AMT on its own and i feel like on some mild roll... I definatly like it altough it hasnt much effect on my social anxiety. I only took 7 mg tough so will need to test it in higher doses.

I also called sick on my work today as my work just sucks and i'm thinking of quitting. While i was at the doc i asked a script for memantine, he said he was going to think about it and do some research before scirpting it to me as he never prescribed that before. At least he was willing to do some research, wich is a good thing.

One anoying side effect of AMT tough...
I LOOK LIKE I'M ON ****ING DRUGS! My pupils are allmost completely dilated, i look like i'm on XTC or something, my doc must have tought i was rolling.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

> One anoying side effect of AMT tough...
> I LOOK LIKE I'M ON ****ING DRUGS! My pupils are allmost completely dilated, i look like i'm on XTC or something, my doc must have tought i was rolling.


that would make sense lol. i always associated 5ht2a agonism with extremely dilated pupils...lots of time when starting a serotonergic drug i get huge pupils. 
4FMP looks pretty sweet...if what Wikipedia says is correct. so its like weak Exctasy combined with weak Cocaine, sort of..? 5ht releaser+ DAT inhibition


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I don't understand why anyone would put a "research chemical" like 4-FMP in their body. From experience, I'm guessing the reason is a drug induced state of carelessness. I can't even find any animal studies on 4-FMP's toxicity, let alone human.

Being a lab rat may be fun and easy in the short term, but all drugs have side effects and eventually you'll notice them whether it takes weeks or years. With untested drugs the side effects could be anything, including brain damage, liver toxicity, cancer, etc., rather than the short and long-term relative safety of something like cannabis. This is just one example of a toxic drug:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para-Bromoamphetamine

Even aside from drug toxicity, street drugs can be impure for many reasons. It could be impurities from manufacture, or cutting agents, but they all add up to more risk.

In order to live long, we minimise risk. Those who don't minimise risk are likely to die young, as in "live fast, die young". What I don't think you're realising is that you don't necessarily need to die young in order to live fast.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> I don't understand why anyone would put a "research chemical" like 4-FMP in their body. From experience, I'm guessing the reason is a drug induced state of carelessness. I can't even find any animal studies on 4-FMP's toxicity, let alone human.
> 
> Being a lab rat may be fun and easy in the short term, but all drugs have side effects and eventually you'll notice them whether it takes weeks or years. With untested drugs the side effects could be anything, including brain damage, liver toxicity, cancer, etc., rather than the short and long-term relative safety of something like cannabis. This is just one example of a toxic drug:
> 
> ...


I would never try chemicals that havent been tested for toxiticy euphoria Bromo amphetamine is a bad example and cant be compared with 4 fluoro amphetamine wich has been shown to not cause long term serotonin depletion. AMT has been used as an antidepressant for 20 years without problems expect ppl complaining about "weirdness" hence why it has been discontinued.

I am not taking any street drugs by the way. Side effects that could take years? Those could also bypass clinical trial, hence i'm not convinced what i'm doing is alot more dangerous then "aproved drugs" as long the RC's i take are all tested for toxiticy and have a history of human usuage.



> From experience, I'm guessing the reason is a drug induced state of carelessness.


I know you'v never tried MDMA so you dont know what it feels like to be normal (altough i do think you felt normal on GBL wich you said made you more prosocial) you've only experienced drug states in which you escape from reality, this is far from what i'm trying to do in the first place. Getting high so i dont care is not the goal here.

Here are the toxiticy studies:



> Comparison of 4-chloro-, 4-bromo- and 4-fluoroamphetamine in rats: Drug levels in brain and effects on brain serotonin metabolism
> 
> R. W. Fuller, J. C. Baker, K. W. Perry and B. B. Molloy
> 
> ...





> Serotonin neurotoxicity in rats after combined treatment with a dopaminergic agent followed by a nonneurotoxic 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) analogue.
> Johnson MP, Huang XM, Nichols DE.
> 
> Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, School of Pharmacy and Pharmacal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907.
> There is increasing evidence linking dopamine (DA) to the long-term serotonergic (5-HT) neurotoxic effects of certain substituted amphetamines such as 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA). The present study was undertaken to examine the importance of DA metabolism, uptake inhibition and release in the long-term effects of these drugs by combining various dopaminergic agents with an analogue of MDMA that had low neurotoxic liability, namely 5,6-methylenedioxy-2-aminoindan (MDAI). Monoamine and metabolite levels and the number of 5-HT uptake sites (using [3H]paroxetine binding) were determined 3 hours or 1 week after treatments. Combining the monoamine oxidase inhibitors, clorgyline (MAOA selective) or deprenyl (MAOB selective) with MDAI did not result in any long-term reductions of serotonergic markers. Similarly, combining the DA uptake inhibitor GBR-12909 with MDAI did not result in any long-term changes in monoamine levels at 1 week. In contrast, a single pretreatment of posttreatment with the nonvesicular DA releaser S-amphetamine and MDAI resulted in small but significant long-term changes in monoamine levels. More importantly, if a subacute dosing regimen (every 12 hours for 4 days) was utilized, the combination of S-amphetamine with MDAI resulted in a marked long-term decrease in the levels of cortical, hippocampal and striatal 5-HT, 5-HIAA and the number of 5-HT uptake sites. The results are discussed in terms of the significance of DA and especially nonvesicular DA release in the long-term effects of MDMA-like drugs.


And AMT has an allready a very long history of human use without much issues. Taking such compounds is damn wort the risk if they have been tested for toxiticy and can give you a normal life. I would never take unstudied or very neurotoxic compounds like bromo amphetamine, no i'm not that crazy.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> that would make sense lol. i always associated 5ht2a agonism with extremely dilated pupils...lots of time when starting a serotonergic drug i get huge pupils.
> 4FMP looks pretty sweet...if what Wikipedia says is correct. so its like weak Exctasy combined with weak Cocaine, sort of..? 5ht releaser+ DAT inhibition


Its a sort of amphetamine with serotonin releasing aspects, ppl describe it as "a light amphetamine with mdma flavour". I'm not planning on ever taking it in recreational doses tough, but i think it can pull of a good job in killing social anxiety and making me motivated.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> it definetly lasted longer than 2 hours, the supposed half life. i think one dose usually lasted between 2-5 hours. if i took 2 doses at once (50 mg) the effects were even stronger. i wish it was cheaper. i had to ration myself so as not to eat all the pills in 3 days. whats funny is that sometimes it had a really strong effect, but sometimes it didn't really seem to do anything at all....but that was probably caused by my combining it with tramadol and xanax, which made it hard to tell if it was working or not. the only time i could actually really tell agomelatine was working was in social situations.....it was flat out obvious that my anxiety was less, and i could communicate alot easier without stuttering and forcing my speech.


Sounds great, i hope its insured in my country yet (normally our government makes the pricing of all meds around 5 euro, except some rarities like memantine wich i would need to pay 90 euro's for). I think it would do a pretty good job on potentiating AMT or 4FMP. Because i'm starting to think i still would need a med cocktail even tough i'm taking powerfull things like AMT, the point is that i cant up my dose because i'm trying to avoid being "high". Agomelatine may be a good option for that.

ATM i'm figuring out wheter there are 5HT2B issues with 4FMP and MDAI, if there are i cant continue, AMT however has a long history of use as an antidepressant.

Got this suggestion on another forum, i'm waiting for more replies tough before making a decission.


> Well, ít's just an assumption, based on binding patterns of 5ht2a receptor. I assume that 5ht2b would require some similar features from it's ligands as 5ht2a.
> 
> MDMA and MDAI are similar, and then again not similar. MDAI has no 5ht2a affinity even though MDA does, because MDAI:s amine is in the wrong place, it's too near to the plane of the aromatic circle.
> 
> Of 4FMP, I'm not sure at all. Perhaps someone who actually knows something about these things might enlighten this for us.


Liver enzyms i will test when conducting more experiments.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

wait.....agomelatine is also a 5ht2b antagonist! well a short lived one. so maybe it would prevent the 5ht2b induced heart valve faluire thing. well Belgium is part of the European Union, if im correct, and agomelatine has been approved in the E.U., so hopefully u can get it.

oh i was gonna ask my pdoc about memantine....but i dunno if i will be covered either for it. Its still brand name isnt it


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> wait.....agomelatine is also a 5ht2b antagonist! well a short lived one. so maybe it would prevent the 5ht2b induced heart valve faluire thing.


I've been thinking of that before but i'm not sure at all wheter its powerfull enough to fully block those effects and the half life is another problem, i cant keep on popping pills every 2 hours. I dont wonna risk is altough i do think it could be possible.
As of now it looks MDAI isnt a 5HT2B agonist at all tough, so i'm guessing it wont have to be much of a worry.
My experiments are experimental enough allready:b



Vini Vidi Vici said:


> wait.....agomelatine is also a 5ht2b antagonist! well a short lived one. so maybe it would prevent the 5ht2b induced heart valve faluire thing. well Belgium is part of the European Union, if im correct, and agomelatine has been approved in the E.U., so hopefully u can get it.
> 
> oh i was gonna ask my pdoc about memantine....but i dunno if i will be covered either for it. Its still brand name isnt it


I dunno, i dont really understand the American system. My country is in the EU yes so it should be availible, altough i heared in the UK only a Pdoc can prescribe because its new, may be the same thing in my country.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> i read alot of articles, and many seem to indicate that 5ht2a agonism decreases OCD symptoms, while 5ht2c agonism increases OCD symptoms. 5ht2a/c antagonists do not improve OCD symptoms. So it is not simply downregulation of 5ht2a/c that improves OCD symptoms with chronic use of SSRIs/MAOIs. It is the agonism of 5ht2a, and some subsequent 2nd messenger system or NMDA dependent mechanism initiated by 5ht2a agonism that causes the clinical benefit. However, i think any kind of downregulation/antagonism of 5ht2c would help with OCD to a certain extent. mCPP was shown to increase OCD symptoms and behaviors....


Interesting, yeah I've also read that 5ht2a agonism, can lead to some secondary release of glutamate at the NMDA receptor. Infact in recent years, increased glutamate activity has been implicated in schizophrenia (along with dopamine) and is thought to be why 5ht2a antagonism possesses antipsychotic properties.


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## Saqq (Dec 1, 2008)

the thing i tried: 
15-20mg~ phenazepam - hard to eye ball
5mg ativan
3 bong hits x few times through the day

thats my ultimate cocktail (with good tv show ready)


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

jim_morrison said:


> Interesting, yeah I've also read that 5ht2a agonism, can lead to some secondary release of glutamate at the NMDA receptor. Infact in recent years, increased glutamate activity has been implicated in schizophrenia (along with dopamine) and is thought to be why 5ht2a antagonism possesses antipsychotic properties.


Interesting, and plausible. 5-HT2A mediates the firing of dopaminergic neurons in at least several areas of the brain, and amphetamine increases glutamate activity.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I would never try chemicals that havent been tested for toxiticy euphoria Bromo amphetamine is a bad example and cant be compared with 4 fluoro amphetamine wich has been shown to not cause long term serotonin depletion. AMT has been used as an antidepressant for 20 years without problems expect ppl complaining about "weirdness" hence why it has been discontinued.
> 
> I am not taking any street drugs by the way. Side effects that could take years? Those could also bypass clinical trial, hence i'm not convinced what i'm doing is alot more dangerous then "aproved drugs" as long the RC's i take are all tested for toxiticy and have a history of human usuage.
> 
> ...


They show serotonergic neurotoxicity doesn't happen, but what about general toxicity?

AMT I agree is probably relatively safe, if it's been used without problems for 20 years.

Bromoamphetamine was a bad example, but take the popular recent drug mephedrone. Toxicity was unknown but people assumed it was safe. Now they are discovering it causes blue knees (possibly from strong vasoconstriction) and icy cold extremities, and many people have died from it. Other worrying side effects are appearing too.

If studies had shown mephedrone was non-neurotoxic like 4-FMP (which I doubt), people still would be suffering these horrendous side effects. Neurons aren't the only part of your body you can permanently **** up. Some hypothetical examples: heart attack resulting in disability, severe vasoconstriction resulting in amputation, stroke resulting in permanent retardation, etc.. Many potential fates are to me worse than death. Compared to amphetamine, LSD, fluoxetine, diazepam, and so many other drugs with a history of safety, this is a huge risk which IMO shouldn't be taken when there are so many other tried and tested drugs out there. There are plenty of ways to relieve anxiety/depression and even induce empathy and euphoria without resorting to research chemicals. Even recreationally, there are so many drugs already that RCs are redundant.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Mephedrone metabolizes in methyl ephedrine what causes severe vasoconstriction in overdose, however in low doses (around 300mg) it would probebly be safe. Reports of vasoconstriction usually involve huge doses. And lets say i would try mephedrone for this purpose i would probebly be taking doses of 50mg. (I do think mephedrone is a very dodgy drug tough with all sorts of weird side effects popping up and that it would probebly very bad for the brain).

I'm just saying that my doses are so small that it would probebly be safe because ppl have been taking much higher doses for a much longer period.

4FMP has been around for years and never have such weird side effects have popped up as with mephedrone wich started popping up this year.

But i get what your trying to say i am being a lab rat here but you cant convince me not doing this.



> There are plenty of ways to relieve anxiety/depression and even induce empathy and euphoria without resorting to research chemicals.


Probably with amphetamine wich i cant get in my country, normal meds i'm pretty sure off they wont work.



> Even recreationally, there are so many drugs already that RCs are redundant.


I love RC's! New sorts of highs!!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I decided to keep my job as it isnt that bad when you know everything that has to be done etc. I got a 24 hour work week which is great.:evil

I also stopped taking the AMT because it isnt that great for social anxiety, i got bigger hopes for 4FMP or MDAI which i both have atm. I still notice a reduction in OCD 3 days after stopping the AMT!

I'm also hoping to get memantine monday as my doc is still making a decission about it, lets hope for the best:boogie:boogie! I dont wonna take anything before i've got the memantine now as i'm a bit paranoid about tolerance.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

i think its cool and wierd how all of those chemicals look almost the same in structure... they all look like dopamine and phenylethylamine. its cool how they all look the same


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> i think its cool and wierd how all of those chemicals look almost the same in structure... they all look like dopamine and phenylethylamine. its cool how they all look the same


Dopamine:heart


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

i read this article claiming that Serotonin was the -In- neurotransmitter of the 1990's, with Prozac and everything, and that now, Dopamine is the -In- neurotransmitter. but Dopamine has always been the -In- neurotransmitter, for like 50,000 years. and its popular with Humans and animals and bugs,


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> i read this article claiming that Serotonin was the -In- neurotransmitter of the 1990's, with Prozac and everything, and that now, Dopamine is the -In- neurotransmitter. but Dopamine has always been the -In- neurotransmitter, for like 50,000 years. and its popular with Humans and animals and bugs,


Yup, everything comes down to dopamine:yes. Altough i think serotonin has some huge potential if released in the right way with a serotonin releaser, (thus bypassing the autoreceptors) togheter with a dopamine inhibitor (thus bypassing the bad serotonin receptors). Inhibiting reuptake is the whorst possible way to achieve benefits from serotonin if you ask me.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

i don't know if ive had any real experiences with a Serotonin releaser, besides DXM. Isn't there any way to stop the neurotoxicity and depeletion Serotonin? I mean if one would weakly inhibit MAO-A, and strongly inhibit MAO-B, and take a small amount of 5htp every day, and use a DRI like Ritalin.... could one take a Serotonin Releaser every day without neurotoxicity? and if an NMDA antagonist would prevent tolerance.... i was thinking, maybe i could break up Exctasy pills into about 8 pieces, and take an equivalent of one pill a day.... MAOIs are good. but they are a little bit bothersome, cuz i can't take many other supplements and medications that i want too....


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DXM isnt a serotonin releaser but a very poor serotonin reuptake inhibitor like prozac. MDAI is a non neurotoxic serotonin releaser, Wiki so there wont be any need to inhibit neurotoxiticy on that one.

Also the chance of MDMA being neurotoxic in low daily doses is probebly very low as there is no hypothermia (abolish hypothermia and abolish neurotoxiticy). If you want to be on the safe site you could take deprenyl.
As of serotonin depleten, its dose dependent.

Taking daily doses of XTC pills is a very BAD idea tough as you also could be taking pills with MCPP, mephedrone etc..

But anyway, i'm one of the first ppl that try's to take a serotonin releaser daily so its pretty experimental. You cant try this anyway cause your on parnate. And in your case i suggest to try to find a doc that prescribes memantine .


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I forgot, MDMA is a 5HT2B agonist so you cant take that one daily. But its a bad idea anyway because you dont know the purity.

Altough, i found this on te internet:


> Daily Low-Dose MDMA in the Treatment of Chronic Pain
> I am now 46, and I have lived with chronic pain for the last 10 years of my life, with good moments and bad, or very bad moments. A car accident in the mid 90's left me with a very weak cervical spine, and after the acute phase was resolved, I paid no more attention to the whole thing and went on with my life as a busy, happily overworked and enthusiastic employee in a big corporation. Gradually, over the following years, insidious changes began to make my life more and more difficult. Then in '98, I had to admit I could no longer function properly and had to go on sick leave, pressed to do so by my doctor. During the following two years, I experienced terrifying periods of intense pain alternating with days of stupor and exhaustion which left me feeling like a zombie and made me doubt that I could have any kind of future ahead of me.
> 
> I was following a treatment with the local hospital, but the progress was slow, if not elusive. I was prescribed vast amounts of medications to deal with the pain and the other effects of the illness; I was given antidepressants for their analgesic properties, muscle relaxants, pain-killers, vitamins, food supplements of all kinds, and even anti-parkinsonian and anti-epilectic drugs my doctor believed would help. For a year and a half, I dragged myself to the hospital once a week to receive magnesium intraveinously. Luckily, with the help of a Chinese doctor a friend referred me to, I gradually managed to recover, very slowly, in a more efficient way.
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Next part


> After a couple of months of search and some very helpful answers and suggestions from MAPS members, I decided to take the risk of trying out what seemed to make a lot of sense to me, medically speaking: I would try taking low doses of MDMA on a continuous basis, during several months, as a replacement of the medication I had been using sofar, and see if this would give better results than the medications and treatments I had followed sofar.
> 
> By low doses, I meant a maximun of 30 mg, as opposed to the usual 100-150 mg recreational dose, and by continuous I meant every day, and more than once if needed. Typically, I would ingest up to 100 mg per day, sometimes less, and sometimes more.
> 
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

rocknroll714 said:


> I like this lol.
> 
> Or with selective agonists for the 'good' receptors like 5-HT1A, 5-HT1B, and 5-HT4. That'd be even better. And I totally agree, serotonin definitely has potential. Serotonin reuptake inhibitors have just given it a bad name. Mere transporter blockade is a terrible way of going about boosting serotonin. Same applies to monoamine oxidase inhibition actually. You need forced release or specific agonism or it's just going to suck.


True.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

rocknroll714 said:


> *Hyperthermia.
> 
> Also I'll briefly go over how MDAI can still potentially be neurotoxic. There was a study which showed MDAI combined with amphetamine results in serotonergic neurotoxicity. The hypothesized reason is because the hyperthermia induced by amphetamine allowed the dormant toxicity of MDAI itself to come to significance. Indeed, like crayzyMed said, if you abolish the hyperthermia of MDMA, you abolish the neurotoxicity as well; though, enough MDMA for long enough will still elicit toxicity even without hyperthermia (as shown by some study which I forget). The same goes for many of the other SSRAs (e.g., 4-MTA, MMAI, MDMAI, MMA, IAP, etc) as well.


I dont agree as adding a DARI doesnt make MDAI neurotoxic while i'm pretty sure a mdai dari combo would increase hyperthermia.

When your talking about "enough MDMA for long enough" i assume were talking about pretty big recreational doses? Altough i'm skeptical this will also occur with MDAI.
The key is to take low daily doses anyway and the chance of getting neurotoxiticy would be pretty non existent even for long periods of time. Who's paranoid can add in deprenyl.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Dopamine release causing hyperthermia which in turn causes neurotoxiticy may not be the real reason for neurotoxiticy. Maybe dopamine release is the biggest issue and not hyperthermia. (I would like to see a study with MDAI given unther conditions that cause hyperthermia).

Does that last study mean we could also expect a sensitisation to the "good effects" of MDMA? Thus giving us the ability to just lower the dose. But anyway i'm starting to think hyperthermia isnt the big bad boy anyway for neurotoxiticy.

And what exactly are low doses? How would a non neurotoxic dose translate to humans?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

rocknroll714 said:


> It's not that hyperthermia causes the neurotoxicity, it's that it potentiates it. The neurotoxicity at its core is caused by radical-generating metabolites (hence inhibitors of the COX and MAO-B enzymes are protective). As for your suggestion of dopamine being the cause and not hyperthermia, D1 receptor antagonists block both hyperthermia and neurotoxicity while D2 receptor antagonists have no effect on either, and there's no question hyperthermia plays a role anyway as increasing body temperature via other means besides dopamine will still exacerbate toxicity.
> 
> When it comes down to it, both the toxic metabolites and hyperthermia are necessary for full-fledged neurotoxicity.


I know dopamine and hyperthermia arent the real cause but they "make it possible to happen" i was suggesting that dopamine plays the major key in making it possible rather then hyperthermia. And that neurotoxiticy wont happen if only hyperthermia is present without the dopamine release. (With dopamine its obvious that hyperthermia potentiates it).
But we would only know that one if studies have been done on MDAI and hyperthermia.



> No, of course not. Just the hyperthermia.


What exactly is the reason for this? I know sensitisation to a drug can occur, and tought it would also be possible with MDMA. More sensitive to MDMA is more hyperthermia.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

rocknroll714 said:


> It's never sensitization to the entire drug, just to certain effects of that drug, much like how desensitization happens to most of the other effects. I'm not sure how there's sensitization to MDMA's hyperthermia.. autoreceptor downregulation perhaps?


D1 receptors getting more sensitive? I've read somewere that MDMA makes dopamine receptors more senstive, i'l look for that study again.

Edit: Cant find it, i'm sure tough that a saw a study showing that low doses increase sensitivity to dopamine.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> I like this lol.
> 
> Or with selective agonists for the 'good' receptors like 5-HT1A, 5-HT1B, and 5-HT4. That'd be even better. And I totally agree, serotonin definitely has potential. Serotonin reuptake inhibitors have just given it a bad name. Mere transporter blockade is a terrible way of going about boosting serotonin. Same applies to monoamine oxidase inhibition actually. You need forced release or specific agonism or it's just going to suck.
> 
> ...


lol, thanks man for the advice/corrections...just shows how incomplete my psychopharmacology knowledge really is lol...i think i could have done a little better if i would of thought about what i was writing....but i really have no idea how Serotonin releasers work. im so tired...just upped my Parnate dose to 40mg yesterday, and didn't sleep at all last night, even though i took 3mg of Zopiclone. played Halo all night.... once i get some energy/sleep, im going to figure out and set straight all these incorrect hypothesis that are circling around in my mind...Halo is fun, but it makes me feel like an uneducated zombie after i play it for 6 hours or so


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> No problem lol. Now I feel bad.. =_=


wait why? i didn't take any of that from a negative perspective...i view it has proffessional advice, useful to prevent me from accidentaly killing myself with drugs in the future... i actually laughed when i first saw the post (i dunno why, but one part of it was funny), i mean im not a very Self-pompous person... so like constructive criticism/advice doesn't really make me feel bad, sometimes it actually makes me feel better, because im realize somebody cares enough to respond to my posts...if u know wat i mean.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Reports of regular MDAI use are starting to show up:


> My experience with MDAI is that it is indeed weaker than Methylone. But calling the two simply dissimilar would perhaps be more truthful. More than anything, it is an effective antidepressant (with a little erotic aspect to it) that doesn't interfere with cognition.
> 
> I've been treating it as a "work hard, play hard" aid and have been splitting my weeks into two halves:
> 3-4 days in a row: Follow a Nootropic regimen (Alpha-GPC, Fish Oil, "Chocamine", Piracetam, Oxiracetam, Bacopa Monnieri, Huperzine A, L-Deprenyl, and sometimes Rhodiola Rosea), and study harder than ever before in my life. I saved up enough money to keep my rent and bills at bay for a couple months, that I may have the time I need to finish coding an approximative Physics/Chemistry/AI hybrid engine project of mine, built for modern GPGPU massively parallel processors. During these days, I mercilessly push my creativity and concentration to their limits.
> ...


Source


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I've just taken my first dose of MDAI (30mg) well see how that goes.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I've just taken my first dose of MDAI (30mg) well see how that goes.


:clap :afr:roll


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> :clap


I'm expecting blunted effects tough because of a sint johns wort experiment i tried in the past to reverse tolerance to MDMA, ppl say that after you take the MDMA the effects are blunted the first time, and it works the next week.

Could apply to MDAI, but well see, i've taken 120mg now.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I'm expecting blunted effects tough because of a sint johns wort experiment i tried in the past to reverse tolerance to MDMA, ppl say that after you take the MDMA the effects are blunted the first time, and it works the next week.
> 
> Could apply to MDAI, but well see, i've taken 120mg now.


St. johns wort is WERIDDDDDD..... like something said it Upregulates 5ht2 receptors...?? i took it and i got more depressed, and i took it for a week and it never worked...

i feel great....like not depressed at all....im scared....im supposed to be depressed from stopping Parnate, but i feel awesome, and i feel emotion, and im happy, .....i hope im not Bipolar or something...i am a little anxious, but still, im not serverely depressed like i usually am. so not only do i feel great, but i also have medicine coming on the way.....yay :boogie:clap:yes


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

i would go to my other computer where i have MSN messenger....but you see, im scared of that computer room. i always get really depressed and get restless leg syndrome when im in that room.....i was thinking its gotta be like something like chemicals in the air, or some weird magnetic current circulating throughout that room....cuz i feel great at this computer, but i hate the other one. Lol


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> St. johns wort is WERIDDDDDD..... like something said it Upregulates 5ht2 receptors...?? i took it and i got more depressed, and i took it for a week and it never worked...
> 
> i feel great....like not depressed at all....im scared....im supposed to be depressed from stopping Parnate, but i feel awesome, and i feel emotion, and im happy, .....i hope im not Bipolar or something...i am a little anxious, but still, im not serverely depressed like i usually am. so not only do i feel great, but i also have medicine coming on the way.....yay :boogie:clap:yes


Yeah it upregulates some receptors involved with MDMA.

Thats awesome news man.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> i would go to my other computer where i have MSN messenger....but you see, im scared of that computer room. i always get really depressed and get restless leg syndrome when im in that room.....i was thinking its gotta be like something like chemicals in the air, or some weird magnetic current circulating throughout that room....cuz i feel great at this computer, but i hate the other one. Lol


LOL, it must be cursed or something.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

The effects are definatly blunted, not even some slight pupil dilation, i expect it too work great in a few days however!

Reminds me of my first MDMA experience that also was blunted like this.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> The effects are definatly blunted, not even some slight pupil dilation, i expect it too work great in a few days however!
> 
> Reminds me of my first MDMA experience that also was blunted like this.


thats terrible....why would your first MDMA experience be blunted?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> thats terrible....why would your first MDMA experience be blunted?


Terrible? lol didnt matter as the next day it did work.
I dunno upregulation of 5HT1A? I've spoken to other before that noticed the same thing.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> LOL, it must be cursed or something.


thats what i think somehow


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Terrible? lol didnt matter as the next day it did work.
> I dunno upregulation of 5HT1A? I've spoken to other before that noticed the same thing.


oh i see. i get it....but isnt 5ht1a responsible for most of the positive effects of it anyway? well i guess 5ht2a and 5ht4 also contribute so ya 5ht1a upregulated would lessen it


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> oh i see. i get it....but isnt 5ht1a responsible for most of the positive effects of it anyway? well i guess 5ht2a and 5ht4 also contribute so ya 5ht1a upregulated would lessen it


Yeah i beleive its because 5HT1A gets upregulated, i've read that MDMA exposure causes 5HT1A upregulation.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Yeah i beleive its because 5HT1A gets upregulated, i've read that MDMA exposure causes 5HT1A upregulation.


wierd......maybe not the actual MDMA exposure, could it possibly be caused by upregulation due to depleted serotonin levels after MDMA exposure?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> wierd......maybe not the actual MDMA exposure, could it possibly be caused by upregulation due to depleted serotonin levels after MDMA exposure?


I dunno, i'm not even sure about that 5HT1A thing, havent really researched it. Just know from all the anecdotal reports that ppl that take MDMA after they have used hypericum to upregulate serotonin receptors they get a blunted roll. I can only gues what causes that.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

A few updates.

Turns out i was right to say that hypericum blunted the effects of MDAI. However it wasnt as good in killing SA as i hoped for, it did seem usefull as it worked on the part that amphetamine misses. Its possible that i'm gonna include 30mg MDAI into my regime.

I went to my doc yesterday (a differend one) to ask for memantine but he wasnt there at the moment, i will go back tomorrow as i have to work today.

The most difficould would be to get dexedrine, if that doesnt work out i will try 4FMP as an replacement.

I'm planning this regime:

Memantine+MDAI+Dexedrine/4FMP to start off. May add in agomelatine+amisulpride in the future (maybe not all of them, it all depends on my progress).


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> A few updates.
> 
> Turns out i was right to say that hypericum blunted the effects of MDAI. However it wasnt as good in killing SA as i hoped for, it did seem usefull as it worked on the part that amphetamine misses. Its possible that i'm gonna include 30mg MDAI into my regime.
> 
> ...


thats Sweet man!!! 4 -FMP does look pretty insane though. i just looks....really cool. i mean, releaseing serotonin and blocking DAT, its just weird and awesome at the same time man.

its funny tho it looks like f-FMP is identical to amphetamine except for the flouride group thing


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> A few updates.
> 
> Turns out i was right to say that hypericum blunted the effects of MDAI. However it wasnt as good in killing SA as i hoped for, it did seem usefull as it worked on the part that amphetamine misses. Its possible that i'm gonna include 30mg MDAI into my regime.
> 
> ...


dude it looks like Memantine might be a problem....reducing 5HT and DA release by MDAI, Dexedrine, MDAI, ect. it appears, maybe, that it prevents neurotoxicity...but through the same mechanism, reduces 5HT and DA release. (this is in my other thread also)



> In synaptosomes, MDMA decreased 5-HT uptake by about 40%. This decrease was prevented by MEM and by MLA but enhanced by PNU 282987. A similar pattern was observed when we measured the dopamine transport inhibited by METH. The inhibition of both transporters by amphetamine derivatives seems to be regulated by the calcium incorporation after activation of alpha-7 nAChR.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=62eaf50c1f5c2ae2a9c2e331eb6a78c4


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> dude it looks like Memantine might be a problem....reducing 5HT and DA release by MDAI, Dexedrine, MDAI, ect. it appears, maybe, that it prevents neurotoxicity...but through the same mechanism, reduces 5HT and DA release. (this is in my other thread also)
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=62eaf50c1f5c2ae2a9c2e331eb6a78c4


Good those receptors upregulate incredibly fast (i beleive thats what causes the initial brainfog).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

A few updates.

Went to my doc to ask for memantine or dexedrine and both got refused, while my other old doc forgot about it again...lol.

The good news is, that i've just made an appointment with a pdoc that can get me tested for ADHD, this is my best chance in getting dexedrine. I can see him in 10 days, wich is awesome.

I do have a pretty severe ADHD-I.

I've also done my first trial with MDAI in a low dose (30mg) for work and the results were good, my SA was significantly reduced without any side effects.


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## jakeforpresident (Sep 27, 2009)

Sigh, AMT is illegal in the US ever since a college student died on it.


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## Saqq (Dec 1, 2008)

Since you guys seem to be smart on this sort of thing, what am I looking at by mixing Parnate (mao-i, 6+ months on it) and Salvia Extract (x10) -- death?  or just the normal effects, or possibly nothing?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Saqq said:


> Since you guys seem to be smart on this sort of thing, what am I looking at by mixing Parnate (mao-i, 6+ months on it) and Salvia Extract (x10) -- death?  or just the normal effects, or possibly nothing?


I'm not sure, but it shouldnt kill you, start with low doses tough...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

jakeforpresident said:


> Sigh, AMT is illegal in the US ever since a college student died on it.


That doesnt matter much, unless your gonna measure your doses in the police station.

Personally i rate MDAI better then AMT anyway and that one is still legal (it cant be considered an analog in the federal analog act in the US).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

This person used MDAI on a regular basis without any tolerance developping:


> And as for daily use of threshold entheo/entacto's, I've been keeping a steady routine of MDAI intake ~2-3 doses a day ~4 days a week for nearly 2 months now and haven't noticed any decrease in effectiveness.
> 
> Perhaps AMT would follow a similar course?
> 
> ...


http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=7825684&postcount=21


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