# Things I never noticed before



## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

I'm starting this up because I wanted to have a place to write things that I notice about my self and how I think and feel, that I become aware of through being Mindful.

So, to start things off....

- I think that I have noticed how I begin worrying about an up-coming social moment well in advance, and that I think about it over and over again. And I also thought that this almost sets me up to then get nervous

- I also have noticed that when I get into such a state, my mind almost needs to find something to obsess over; and sometimes I have chosen to think of something positive and completely besides worrying just to cut the pattern

- I also think that I have noticed that I may spend much of my time, and maybe especialy around others, worrying about my social anxiety

OK, that is enough for today. But if anyone else wants to add things that they have become more aware about regarding what they spend there times thinking about, and what their emotions are, both in the company of others and alone -then feel free to add them here.
I'm going to try to keep remembering to be Mindful and just see what happens for me as well as what new insights it brings me about my thinking patterns.


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## Gerard (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm worry about rejection. I think that's my shadow talking.


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## tomcoldaba (Jul 1, 2007)

Ruby Tuesday, your posts on Mindfulness helped me with a business meeting with my future boss. Usually, I am very anxious before a meeting. Today I experienced no anxiety. Any time, my thoughts roamed to the negative, I focused on my present surroundings. During the hour long meeting, I did not sweat nor did my mouth go dry. 

Midway through the meeting, my cell phone began ringing, I excused myself, set my mobile to silent and went on with the conversation without any self criticism. Normally, I would have been angry at myself that my cell phone went off during an important meeting. The conversation flowed freely and I do not recall any silences. During the meeting, I remembered the Mindful posts of remaining in the moment. Whenever, my thoughts roamed, I brought them back to the discussion and what was being said. I did not try to come up with the best answer or question or try to impress her. I left the meeting feeling very relaxed and pleased with myself.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Tomcoldaba,

That is sensational. Especially how easily and quickly you are able to do such a thing.

My only suggestion (until of course I get ordained as a Zen priest ...that's sarcasm!) is maybe for you to buy yourself a Mindfulness guided meditation cd and maybe do some meditation group sessions. ...this can only strengthen your concentration and skill (which clearly shows considerable potential).

I personally have found meditation difficult to do. But since listening to my cds (I have John Kabat-Zinn's 2nd series) I noticed a big improvement in my meditation. -almost like the voice telling me what to do made things easier somehow.

Some cool books on the subject that I know of are...
"The Miracle of Mindfulness" by Thich Nhat Han (and other books of his)
"Wherever You Go, There You Are" by John Kabat-Zinn (and other books of his)
"Beginning Mindfulness" by Andrew Weiss -this book is good because it has a whole program of exercises to do on a weekly basis and also explains the reasons for it.

Well, I guess Nhat Han is right: Mindfulness is a miracle.
(I noticed improvement straight away. My difficulty is to remember to apply concentration. -any yet, it is a much easier, less painful thing to do than not doing it.)

I am glad that anything I said has helped someone in any way. -those books above are great. Also, there is a free on line copy of Gunaratana Mahathera's "Mindfulness in Plain English" that you can find at http://www.budsas.org
Someone recommeded a website with 'insight meditation' in its title to me also.

How great and how encouraging.
...I better get to really practising more times throughout the day.

Elisa


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## tomcoldaba (Jul 1, 2007)

Thank you for the list on Mindfulness guided mediation. I plan to work on incorporating Mindfulness in combating SA.

I read David Burns book Panic Attack. There is a Daily Mood Log I kept for a week. Everytime a negative thought popped in my mind, I wrote it down and also wrote the positive experience that would combat the negative thought. My negative thoughts are irrational.

I wrote a list of negative (or rejection) thoughts and wrote a list of positive thoughts. I memorized the this list. 

Last week I called 5 friends and told them I suffered from SA. Their assessment of me is totally different from my assessment of myself (it is negative). I wrote down their assessments. In today meeting, I guess I was emotionally ready to combat any negative thought that strayed into my mind and use Mindfulness to bring me to the present. I have read your posts on Mindfulness.

I am eager to test myself further. I may attend a local chamber of commerce meeting where I don't know anyone and see how I feel. Just attending it is a victory. Normally, I would avoid such a meeting. However, this is the last two weeks of summer and most folks are on vacation. There may be no meetings during this week or next week.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Hi again Tomcoldaba,

I thought to my self that perhaps one of the reasons why we experience immeditate relief in moments of mindfulness is because a big part of our problem is worrying it self.

I notice sometimes how I spend much of my time worrying about my anxiety. 

I saw a documentary on a person who had isnomnia. He was quite an obsessive type -an independent film maker and had collections all perfectly organised of everything from important movies to pieces of old clocks that took his fancy.
Well, in this documentary he made, one scene towards the end consisted of his mother becoming very angry at him and yelling: "I am tired of you and your obsession!"
...he had become obsessed with his inomnia; but I wonder whether insomnia was more a symptom of his problem of obsessive thinking and worrying.

The point is that I think that worrying, obsessing and what psychologists call "ruminating" are a big part of our problems; and by being mindful a person not only can notice something like this but also breaks the habit.

And I think that with me it is quite an entrenched habit. I notice that my mother has this habit.

Well, I encourage you with all that you are endeavouring to do for your self.
I am finding Andrew Weiss' book very practically useful. He builds on a week-by-week basis a person's mindfulness training. My books are great sources of instruction, information and especially of inspiration. And they likewise help me in my practise, which I remember to do more.

Ruby.


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## tomcoldaba (Jul 1, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> The point is that I think that worrying, obsessing and what psychologists call "ruminating" are a big part of our problems; and by being mindful a person not only can notice something like this but also breaks the habit.


I agree with you. I have wasted a lot of time ruminating or analyzing a situation. Using the Daily Mood Log, I write down the negative thought and the positive response to it. For example, I am afraid of flying. My negative thought - I will die in a plane crash. I would obsess over it for days. The more I obsess about it, the more afraid I become. A week ago, I flew to Chicago. I wrote down the negative thought of the plane crashing and the positive response to it. More people die in road accidents than from plane crashes. The positive thought calmed me down. At the airport, when the negative thought popped into my head, I reminded myself about the history of plane crashes. I flew to Chicago and back without any fear and my flight encountered turbulence. I felt liberated after the trip.

After joining this forum, I have learned a lot about SA as I read the posts. When I read a book, I think that the author or their editors have sanitized it. But reading posts in this forum, I learned that some folks have had the same or similar feelings. That itself is helpful.

I must read the books you have listed for my recovery. Thanks for your help. Good luck in your recovery.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Just one last thing that you may wish to check-out.
I hope that it doesn't swamp you with too many varied techniques and information.

But, if you have the time, you may wish to look at:
http://www.mindfulrecovery.com
It is a site starte by a Cesar Bujosa, who recovered from social anxiety. 
If you have questions you can personally email him for guidance and advice, as he gives his email address.

And if it is too much for you to read, I recommed looking first at the "Treatment Section". -In fact, read this and see if it appeals to you and then go back and read the rest.

Best wishes to you also. And thanks for your support also
(I appreciate the people I speak to here. I cannot find genuine support and lack of judgement from my family and the few I may get this from, I could not speak openly about things and they just wouldn't understand or relate.)


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Thought I'd resurrect this.

...one interesting thing that I have been noticing when being Mindful is:-

-that I will have a thought about something that has recently happened and very instantly a flash of an image of a person from my past will come into my mind

I've been Mindful of my thoughts and noticed as a result how naturally this seems to happen, and I suspect that it goes on a lot but that I don't notice it because I'm not Mindful a lot.

And when I am Mindful of my thoughts, not only have I noticed my mind doing such a thing, but I have also been able to conciously identify the connection that my (most likely) subconscious mind is making.

And I have to say: my subconscious is pretty intelligent in some ways. It seems very good with association, and almost seems to be sending me hints and advice in terms of how to interpret present situations.

And then, by being Mindful, I think I am able to understand better how I feel about something -since it seems to be the aspect of my mind that allows me to identify my feelings. And this alone is a great help in then knowing what to believe about something and also knowing how to approach a situation.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

That's very interesting, RubyTuesday. I'm glad you're sharing your experiences.

I've noticed during times of mindfulness how my mood is in a liquid, constantly changing state. It is usually relatively stable during mindfulness, but even so, there are still very subtle changes at all moments. It's an odd experience that I can't fully enjoy when I'm not living "in the moment".

I've noticed my mood changes more often if I'm not being mindful. I think this is because I'm thinking more than I'm perceiving. Thoughts clearly have an impact on my feelings/mood. When I am mindful, the thoughts tend to fade as I increasingly perceive reality instead of think about it with words/concepts. This leads to a very tranquil experience.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

That sounds quite promising, Ardrum.

I've read that I shouldn't discuss my experiences of meditation if I can help it. And I'll try to follow such advice, however, I also believe that some analysis of things (like intellectual and discursive thinking) is useful, if just in terms of creating enthusiasm for the practise of perceiving (rather than thinking).

HAving said that (hope I've made some sense!) I notice that I often go into a sort of semi-comatose state when I meditate. Like my body gets so very very still that it is as if I cannot move it even.

...well, I'll try to avoid commenting and assessing my progress, as they say that this is a hindrance to progress, just as it is no longer focussing on the present but on goals and achievement.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Good point. Let's not dwell on past experiences too much.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Maybe I said this before, but today I noticed just how much worrying I do.

Today was actually a pretty cool day for me. My mood has been quite up and my head has been clear. I even feel positive about my future and I can't remember when I felt like that -probably before I lost my job.

But this more Mindful/peaceful attitude probably has made it even easier for me to be Mindful. And today I have been being Mindful quite a bit.

And as a result I have noticed just how much worrying I seem to do about such very trivial matters -how I seem to work-things-up in my mind. To harp on something that doesn't matter a great deal but, nonetheless, my mind seems to latch onto things and keeps churning thoughts over and over.

And this habit of obsessive thinking/worrying is very likely to be strong. It is also most certainly in my family. 

Also, it is quite likely that such a pattern of 'thinking behaviour' is what causes me to experience anxiety in social situations. However, I think that my real problem is really obsessive thinking (and a general hypersensitivity); just going by my perfectionism in many areas of my life.

Well, this is what I wanted to note: how being mindful seems to be showing me that I am an incessant worrier. And I believe that it has become such a habit for me (and is also a bit hereditary) that I am not fully aware of doing it or even that it is not a healthy way to be. -like the metaphor of a frog being cooked slowly in a tub of hot water: if the temperature is raised gradually enough the frog won't notice so much when it is actually being cooked to death.


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## Maslow (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm a big proponent of the practice of mindfulness. It's helped me more than anything to combat my SA. Ruby, most of my life I've had that problem with incessant thinking and worrying. It got so bad, it turned into chronic severe insomnia. But through the practice of mindfulness, it's not so much of a problem any more.

I like that frog metaphor. If we catch ourselves when we feel the water getting warmer, when the worrying starts, we can't keep from being cooked in our thoughts.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Hi Maslow,

It is so cool that you mentioned the word insomnia.!!!

I'll tell you why...
I saw an interesting documentary made by a man who sufferred from insomnia. And it revealed many interesting things to me -that this guy was quite the obsessive, neurotic type; he was one of those Woody Allen New York Jews (even a film maker as well), a creative type, he had stacks of collected knick-knacks that he had all organised perfectly.

....but more interesting than this was something that his mother said , (the film would cut to every so often) and towards the end she got really angry with him, yelling: "I am sick of your obsession!" And she described that it isn't even the insomnia that bothers her so much as how much her son simply harped on and on about it.

-What if 'social anxiety' isn't really the problem; and that rather it is patterns of thinking and/or of dealing with external stimulation in general. 

This is the third major life crisis of my life and it seems that whatever I care about in particular can often become something of an obsession. 

Similar to this, insomnia or social anxiety can simply be something for an uncontrolled mind and emotions to fixate on. When really the main problem is an uncontrolled mind.

Perhaps, however, I am merely pointing out a detail with this. But for me at least, my difficulties seem to be concerned more with obsessive worrying and just a general difficulty managing my sensitivity and emotional reactivity to everything. ...maybe an anxiety disorder, in a way, is a sort of "cure" as at least it does give me something to be scared of and to fixate on.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

I think you raise a very interesting point, RubyTuesday. I've often thought that complaining and lamenting all day long about "social anxiety" by saying "my social anxiety" and "I have social anxiety" and "social anxiety makes me..." and on and on and on and on just keeps reinforcing an identification with this phrase. I don't think that obsessing over social anxiety and identifying with it over and over and over and over again is a very healthy state of being. 

I can't see how continuous identification with social anxiety serves to alleviate the symptoms of social anxiety.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Hi Ardrum

(I always enjoy reading what you have to say...)
I thought I would write this before I forgot it...
Do you remember the page early on in Steve Hagen's book where he gives that story of Buddha talking with a farmer..?
the one about everybody having (I think it was) 83 problems and that there is nothing that we can do about it. But that we can do something about the 84th problem...

This seems to be the human problem: to perceive your situation in terms of being a problem and then render yourself unable to change anything. -the whole 'vicious circle' or 'duhkha' as Buddha refers to things. Just like he referred to ignorance as being our real problem.

And perhaps with those with obsessive thinking styles and/or hypersensitive neurosys, this 84th problem is stepped-up a notch or two.

This is why I believe Mindfulness has been a Godsend for me. Because this is really the third time in my life that I have hit crisis point. And it is really my overthinking, obsessive thinking that is my problem. And this is the same as saying that my problem is perceiving my situation/life in terms of 'shyness' or any other kind of vulnerability that I experience about my self, as being something to fight.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Right, I remember the segment that talked about the 84th problem. I think the farmer went to the Buddha complaining about how his crops weren't growing well and several other problems. The Buddha told him that he couldn't help the guy, and the farmer got furious at him. The farmer wanted all his problems to go away, and in the process, he had the 84th problem of believing all of his problems shouldn't be there and that they can and should all be removed. He's raging against reality because reality doesn't correspond to his desire, making himself furious, confused, and upset. This, I think, was what was meant by that 84th problem.

In my post above, I'm specifically referring to my concern over someone who _identifies_ with "social anxiety" (as if we _are_ this thing we call "social anxiety") rather than someone who merely experiences without straining against these experiences. That straining against, in the moment, would create the 84th problem.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

I'm going to go to sleep soon, but first I thought I'd write something.

It is clever of you to have pointed out that distinction. I don't pick up on or have a lot of clarity about subtle but important differences to do with how we approach or view things. And I guess that what you are saying is that we can suppress or dramatize our situation and neither helps us, (and one is really just the same as the other); but that real acceptance of any state involves not attaching to it. Neither denying something (bad) nor letting it overwhelm us.

I was re-reading Steve Hagen's book again just trying to 'get' more the reasoning behind letting go of all concepts and labels and instead learning to be comfortable with a lack of definition, or with not knowing.

In the past I have tried to secure a sense of who I was and I've found that by trying to do this that I got more and more uncertain. And that security could only be found by accepting insecurity.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

For conventional purposes, our concepts are very useful. I think Hagen mentions how the point isn't to resist concepts in and of themselves. We can't communicate or do daily tasks without conceptualizing. The point is to merely to realize that those concepts don't ultimately capture reality. If we examine our concepts beyond their practical meaning in daily life, we see how messy and insufficient they are for this purpose. 

Ultimately speaking, what we actually observe doesn't include a single frozen, unchanging entity whatsoever. To think that there is this self-identity we have that is unchanging flies against what is directly observed. Struggling to conceptualize reality, in this case by trying to describe "who we are," just leads to more doubt as we're continually faced with change.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Thanks Ardrum.

I find that I can never get enough of having such things explained and re-explained to me.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Well, it doesn't seem like a lecture to me. I can always rely on you to raise good points in unexpected ways. It gets me thinking, which leads to my posts. It's a delight to interact with you.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

...why, thank you :boogie 

and :ditto to you !


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Hi again Ardrum,

Regarding my mental habit of worrying and/or rehearsing interaction with others or just plain needing to feel secure and defined ...I had sent an email to the creator of http://www.mindfulrecovery.org, as Cesar Bujosa. Cesar offers email advice and his site is definetly worth a look. I've gone off it more recently because I just felt the need to concentrate more on building my mindfulness and just my concentration in general. But he has a good approach to tackling anxiety issues, and has himself recovered from Social Anxiety.

I had asked him about my tendency to 'ruminate', worry and the like. He replied with the following. ...It is interesting because through Mindful awareness a person can learn about how they think and get insight on what about their thinking is holding them back, at the same time that awareness brings their thinking back into line. This is also interesting in terms of how CBT styles of therapy can SOMETIMES inadvertently continue the anxious response.

By this I mean that the subtle duality involved in CBT and other such therapies can add-on to a person's sense that they SHOULD be other than who they are -and likewise, can increase or exasperate anxiety (and some psychotherapists agree with this understanding) .

However, having said this, CBT, 'positive thinking' and other therapies that are along the lines of trying to 'believe' and heaven is 'out there' (as opposed to Buddhist Mindfulness focus on 'awareness' or 'seeing' and heaven is 'here' and now') do have there place. In fact, I understand such approaches to be appropriate when a person has a certain degree of awareness already and/or lack of more acute or intense anxiety or an inner emotional conflict. (This is my understanding, or at the very least my hunch.)

....well, I won't overload you too much by blabbing anymore. But here is the email that Cesar sent to me. And what it has to say about how Social Anxiety is created and perpetuated (the vicious circle etc) by us, is definetly worth a look.

The following was written in an email sent by Cesar Bujosa (from http://www.mindfulrecovery.org)....

"_Social Anxiety is diagnostically defined as "a marked and persistent fear of one or more social or performance situations in which the person is exposed to unfamiliar people or to possible scrutiny by others."? This initial part of the diagnostic definition portrays the circumstance that typically triggers the anxiety attack: It is fear related to social or performance situations -- not with close relations, friends or family. The diagnostic definition then elaborates on the nature of the fear experience: â€œThe individual fears that he or she will act in a way (or show anxiety symptoms) that will be humiliating or embarrassing.â€? So the fear in social anxiety is being shamed, dishonored or disgraced. This is certainly a fine description. Further contained in this definition is a description of a common secondary feature which is the fear of being exposed as being anxious. In other words, there may be aggravated anxiety about having anxiety.

This pithy definition does not however suggest the cause of or its remedy. Thus to make the definition more serviceable I would add: â€œThe condition is distinguished by avoidant behaviors and compensatory ideals forming as preoccupations that obstruct adjustment to the core fear.â€? Now the definition includes more of its symptoms and suggests a remedy-- The complex of Social Anxiety requires an absence therapeutic exposure to the offending fear for it to be sustained. Avoidance and overcompensations form and maintain the disorder.

So with the added description that Social Anxiety necessitates active avoidance let us approach understanding the condition from the perspective of its remedy rather than its miseriesâ€"a sort of reverse tactic. Here is a revealing scenario in which a typical intervention occurs. Imagine you have social anxiety and it's not just another morning. Today you have a meeting with your colleagues to discuss both last monthâ€™s business highlights and your plans for the coming month. What's more, you will be joined by a colleague who you admire. In the midst of getting yourself prepared for the day you find yourself transported by your imagination from your kitchen to the conference room. You see yourself bidding peers and supervisors good morning, chuckling, rustling papers and acting as if you were fully comfortable. As you prepare to leave your home your mind is negotiating two activitiesâ€"one oriented to the present moment, the other to the future event. You are then rudely awakened from your daydream after mindlessly opening your refrigerator door when your intent was to find your house keys. As if suddenly discovering you were lost in dream, you become abruptly present to where you really are and what you were just doing. â€œGod!â€? you scold yourself as if striking a clang.

*Then skillfully you determined that you will not condemn yourself as a bird-brain as you might have done just two months back. Being critical is almost a reflex; it works your symptoms up but you are not going there. You have learned to be more self accepting and you refuse to feel diminished by the fact that you were distracted by apprehensive anxiety. You are now familiar with such mental events. You review the nature of your fantasy and determined that the intent was to look good in the eyes of others and to redeem a loss sense of honor. You are by now quite familiar with these two themes. You whisper to yourself a healing mantra: "This is my emotional wound and I accept it completely." You allow yourself to briefly become aware of the present moment feeling your state of being. Though not elated, there is a sense of command and success that comes over you for you have once again identified and interrupted a toxic and maladjusted mental habit. You again resolve to refrain from such fantasies and launch into your work day without dependence on a script.

This brief account portrays an interruption of symptomatic ruminations that sustain social anxiety. The scenario further reveals key elements about the nature of the disorder. What is so critical about this scenario is that the symptoms of social anxiety are not primarily characterized as anxious moments in a social setting. This private episode is more insidious, less awkward but just as significant. Discomfort in a social encounter is only one aspect of the condition. Social anxiety is also understood as preoccupation, chronic self-consciousness and unwitting defensiveness.

By interrupting habitual defensiveness forming as intrusive fantasies and preoccupation, we strike at the maladjusted coping modes that sustain the condition. Social anxiety is not primarily healed on the stage of social performance; it is healed in the private moments of your life. We are consequently led to the ironic conclusion that social anxiety is more a private matter than a public one. We are privately working our symptoms up rather than down. We are covertly utilizing toxic modes of coping like Being Impressive that must be relinquished if we are to gain liberation.

Many of these toxic coping modes resemble adaptive coping but their intentions differ. Maladjusted modes are driven by aversion and they are excessive. A Recovery Inc. slogan for example goes: â€œWe seek to be exceptional, but fear being less than average.â€? The slogan suggests the use of a conditional assumption that is maladaptive: â€œIf I am exceptional then I am OK, but if I am not exceptional then I am not OK.â€? This conditional assumption may sound harmless enough, however it is not. It is, to begin with, untrue. We are Ok whether we are exceptional or not. Thus the idea that we must be exceptional creates an unnecessary imperative. This is what cognitive-behavioral innovator Albert Ellis called â€œmustyâ€? thinking. Conditional self-acceptance of this kind is less than wise. It is a setup for anxiety.*_


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

That's a very interesting response. Thanks for sharing.


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