# I feel that CBT is like Communism...



## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

... it sounds good in theory just doesn't work in the real world. I wish i could make it work for me, i know its my negative thoughts that bring me own, but i try and try to think more rationally and its just doesn't change how i feel, its also very hard to come up with good rational thoughts while i'm feeling these negative emotions.
I just don't feel like there is anything else, the one thing that should work just doesn't. I really do think its time to accept the fact that i'm always going to be an unhappy person.


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## inerameia (Jan 26, 2012)

I feel the same. It seems impossible to change neural connections just by changing your thoughts. Seems more like a test of willpower. Some can do it and some can't. 

I wish I lived in a time where this wasn't such a problem. As in, nanoneural therapy. (Yes I made that word up.) It would apply nanotechnology to neuroscience in order to balance neurochemistry in those who are mentally ill. The question: is it feasible?

I apologize. I think I derailed the topic.


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## AdamUK (May 1, 2004)

CBT never really helped me although on paper it sounds good. 
Don't fret there are loads of different therapies, self help to try. 

A good counsellor who can identify and work with the negative emotions.

Have you gave mindfulness a go?

I think CBT is not adequate for dealing with deep seated emotional pain which sound like maybe you have.


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## AdamUK (May 1, 2004)

Peregrinus sorry for to say anything about you question. I don't know much about nanotechnology . is there any links you can give me I'd like to learn more.

Does sound like a subject only found in sci fi movies.


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## Terranaut (Jul 11, 2013)

Communism is an intellectual construct that takes an adult intellectual with sound ethics to work as a "buy in" where peers all agree to observe the rules. That's about as ridiculous as libertarianism. Ironic as it may be that communism is associated with atheism, communism is clearly a product of "creationist" assumptions which assumes people to all have those capacities just a libertarianism does. In reality we re not "created beings", are not equal in faculty or ethics nor are we all adult and intellectually advanced at the same time. CBT, like much else in society, is also grounded in creationist assumptions--assuming that we lack an understanding of an issue which make us emotionally unstable and that by resolving that issue we will become "well". A person is not capable of suspending their own feelings--their own reactions, then reinserting themselves into their bodies and carrying on having better interpreted what before was a problematic stimuli. SSRI drug therapy is the closest thing to delivering the capacity. But without a change in chemistry how can one even begin to know how to feel differently than they've always felt. They don't know what that is like.


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## inerameia (Jan 26, 2012)

AdamUK said:


> Peregrinus sorry for to say anything about you question. I don't know much about nanotechnology . is there any links you can give me I'd like to learn more.
> 
> Does sound like a subject only found in sci fi movies.


Haha I understand. And no I don't have any papers for it. It's just something I created in my mind.

It does sound absolutely nuts so I see where you're coming from. I'm just the type of guy who envisions potential advances in science.

You ever hear about the man who has theorized a space travel from star trek? Warp speed I believe it is called. Could be wrong. Anyway, it's only theoretical I believe. Not sure.


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## inerameia (Jan 26, 2012)

Terranaut said:


> Communism is an intellectual construct that takes an adult intellectual with sound ethics to work as a "buy in" where peers all agree to observe the rules. That's about as ridiculous as libertarianism. Ironic as it may be that communism is associated with atheism, communism is clearly a product of "creationist" assumptions which assumes people to all have those capacities just a libertarianism does. In reality we re not "created beings", are not equal in faculty or ethics nor are we all adult and intellectually advanced at the same time. CBT, like much else in society, is also grounded in creationist assumptions--assuming that we lack an understanding of an issue which make us emotionally unstable and that by resolving that issue we will become "well". A person is not capable of suspending their own feelings--their own reactions, then reinserting themselves into their bodies and carrying on having better interpreted what before was a problematic stimuli. SSRI drug therapy is the closest thing to delivering the capacity. But without a change in chemistry how can one even begin to know how to feel differently than they've always felt. They don't know what that is like.


I'm curious about your thoughts on CBT. You say it's akin to creationism. How so?


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## inerameia (Jan 26, 2012)

AdamUK said:


> I think CBT is not adequate for dealing with deep seated emotional pain which sound like maybe you have.


I disagree. I think of it more as akin to a bandage to prevent infection. It's more for those with mild to moderate anxiety and depression.

Never mind. I misread. I agree with you.


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## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

Peregrínus said:


> I feel the same. It seems impossible to change neural connections just by changing your thoughts. Seems more like a test of willpower. Some can do it and some can't.
> 
> I wish I lived in a time where this wasn't such a problem. As in, nanoneural therapy. (Yes I made that word up.) It would apply nanotechnology to neuroscience in order to balance neurochemistry in those who are mentally ill. The question: is it feasible?
> 
> I apologize. I think I derailed the topic.


That seems more prophetic than feasible, i'm sure thats exactly how they'll treat people in the future who have a definite chemical imbalance. 
I'm imbalanced, i doubt its chemical though.


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## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

AdamUK said:


> CBT never really helped me although on paper it sounds good.
> Don't fret there are loads of different therapies, self help to try.
> 
> A good counsellor who can identify and work with the negative emotions.
> ...


Been reading a bit about mindfulness, i've tried a bit of it before. To be honest i think i employ some mindfulness strategies when i'm in a good mood without consciously doing it. I think mindfulness sounds more my cup of tea, CBT just seems to be about fighting myself, and i've been battling myself for years now why use another 'weapon' to carry on the fight that i just don't seem to be able to win.


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## inerameia (Jan 26, 2012)

bottleofblues said:


> That seems more prophetic than feasible, i'm sure thats exactly how they'll treat people in the future who have a definite chemical imbalance.
> 
> I'm imbalanced, i doubt its chemical though.


Prophetic in the sense of looking into the future? Or as in, not likely? But then your next sentence seems to agree with what I said. Sorta confused. Maybe I'm being impractical.

I think chemical imbalances are only likely caused by environmental stress. If you resolve the 'imbalance' (life imbalance?) (You're kind of vague about it.) I'm sure the chemical imbalance will balance out.

I'm no neuroscientist of course though so I suppose I'm probably wrong.

I think mindfulness works too.


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## Terranaut (Jul 11, 2013)

Peregrínus said:


> I'm curious about your thoughts on CBT. You say it's akin to creationism. How so?


I didn't mean to imply the CBT is akin to creationism. There are assumptions about the nature of human being and out mind/brains that come from creationism which are ingrained into most of our social institutions as well as our educational, governmental, and even medical. Don't forget that I also asserted that ironically communism, which has been associated with atheism, is rife with assumptions that originate from the white man's genesis from his/her Bible.

When we assume we are a "created" being instead of an evolving part of nature, we create a "normality artifice"--a sort of construct for a "created person" who somehow comes into existence as an adult with de-determined rages of capacities. Religious types are in total denial about the truth of our animal origins and whether they are hard-edged or completely passive but unquestioning they take on an ancient culture of sexual repression that seems to what to never "go there" unless dragged kicking and screaming. Creationism is so insidiously entrenched that even people who identify as atheists often don't see that they are still defined by assumptions they wouldn't make if they had not heard of "god" or this idea that we are "created" separate and above nature. Without anyone necessarily saying so is the assumption that "god doesn't make mistakes". And that particular detail leads to a world of hurt for the myriad of human beings whose genetics and epigentics (external stimuli that causes some genes to activate where the human been differs from that "normality artifice" I mentioned.

Culturally this pushes everyone who isn't the archetypal male with heterosexual orientation and archetypal females also with heterosexual orientation into a false margin which tends to assign blame to the individual that than accept that nature is full of differentiation. There is a tendency to call everything that isn't "normal" according to the creationist assumption an "aberration", a mistake, a less than. What's more, some people carry this creationist assumption so far as to explain something like "race" which has a vastly different truth in nature, as part of an order that puts the white European on top because the Romans co-opted Christianity and it's Jewish heritage and turned it into the glorified white mythology it is today. I can't say for sure as a historian but the evidence seems to be very clear that the Romans claimed to be converted but what they instead did was realize it is easier and cheaper to get people to willingly give up their money and provide useful intelligence on each other through the confessional through "myth-making"--something which already proved very successful in the far east as man name Ashoka came 100 years after the real Buddha who most people knew little of and just through his power of myth-making got people to all but enslave themselves for free to build all the great monuments and infrastructure of the Budhist world. The Romans followed the same tact whether learning from what Ashoka accomplished or stumbling upon it themselves. But what was the Roman Empire is today the Catholic church which has billions of followers--most either taking creationism verbatim or passively not challenging it.

How does this relate to medicine and cognitive behavioral therapy? CBT predates medicine like the SSRI class. It all predates the knowledge that has led to the design of the SSRI class. It therefore assumes a "normality artifice". And we can not know what goes on in the minds of practitioners. Are they themselves believers in creation? Or are they completely resigned to the fact that in animal nature, imperfection is the norm and perfection the exception? Does mere acquiescence to authority imply superiority? Might not something taken as ADHD actually be simply another type of human who can be reached by another model other than acquiescence to authority. How is to say for absolute certain that someone has an attention deficit disorder verses someone else who may be potential advanced beyond the plodding scope of a school classroom.? Generalities are made where there are big margins for error and the bottom line is that the institution upholds the "creationist" archetype of pure boy and pure girl and never points the finger at itself that maybe it's the one with the deficiencies and repressions that keep it from daring to broach sexuality and critical issues of social development which could pay great dividends later in life.

There is a science that exposes all fo this as backward and dysfunctional. It explains away race and frees us from this ancient misconception. It is that beside the fact that we are not created and therefore not "created equal", we are something even more precious that is not just an opinion but a scientific truth. Every one of us has something called a neuroplastic dynamism at work in our minds which adds very specific capacities to who we are. The proof is all around us. It explains why race is nonsense--why there are brilliant black people who are doctors, even a president, scientists, astrophysicists, ground-breaking musicians while there are white people who claim white supremacy and then set about making the absolute worst case for any merit to the assertion. Race is an appearance and nothing more. There are stereotypes and there are boobs in every ethnicity, but every one has this life-long growth capacity and it explains why even hardened criminals somehow manage to find themselves and do good works uncharacteristic of who they were in youth.

How much does CBT mesh with neuroplastic dynamism? Probably not at all. It's objective are date. They are focused on trying to lead a person to fight their own impulses so that tehy can be subsumed into the normality artifice"--a tidy creationist package of boy or girl who does what they are told.


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## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

Peregrínus said:


> Prophetic in the sense of looking into the future? Or as in, not likely? But then your next sentence seems to agree with what I said. Sorta confused. Maybe I'm being impractical.
> 
> I think chemical imbalances are only likely caused by environmental stress. If you resolve the 'imbalance' (life imbalance?) (You're kind of vague about it.) I'm sure the chemical imbalance will balance out.
> 
> ...


Yeah as in looking into the future, i probably tend to misuse that word a lot as its usually associated with religion. I do think the whole chemical imbalance idea is widely over used so that people can sell us their drugs, but i do think some people have something definitely physiologically wrong with their brain, like schizophrenics.
Didn't i hear somewhere that one of the main causes of schizophrenia to flare up was issues from childhood? I remember i lived in this crazy flat once and the woman who owned the house had this boyfriend who was a serious alcoholic and his brother suffered from schizoprenia. And apparently from her i learned that their father used to beat them quite a lot as kids, but that apparently the older one who was schizo used to get the worse beatings. Makes me kind of wonder.
Truth be told i'm very sceptical about anti depressants i think they're all too readily handed out to every tom, dick and harry that probably doesn't have anything wrong with their brains other than some emotional problems. But i do think anti psychotics like Lithium, etc can be beneficial and in come cases essential for some people.


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## inerameia (Jan 26, 2012)

bottleofblues said:


> Yeah as in looking into the future, i probably tend to misuse that word a lot as its usually associated with religion. I do think the whole chemical imbalance idea is widely over used so that people can sell us their drugs, but i do think some people have something definitely physiologically wrong with their brain, like schizophrenics.
> Didn't i hear somewhere that one of the main causes of schizophrenia to flare up was issues from childhood? I remember i lived in this crazy flat once and the woman who owned the house had this boyfriend who was a serious alcoholic and his brother suffered from schizoprenia. And apparently from her i learned that their father used to beat them quite a lot as kids, but that apparently the older one who was schizo used to get the worse beatings. Makes me kind of wonder.
> Truth be told i'm very sceptical about anti depressants i think they're all too readily handed out to every tom, dick and harry that probably doesn't have anything wrong with their brains other than some emotional problems. But i do think anti psychotics like Lithium, etc can be beneficial and in come cases essential for some people.


I don't know mean to imply mental illness is purely chemical. I think it's partly that but also environmental.

Well, yes. My mom has schizophrenia and we're sure traumatic abuse she endured likely was a sort of catalyst.

No antidepressant has worked for me. They work for some but the claims from the pharmaceutical companies could be inflated. I know meds aren't cures either; I just use benzos and stims to cope.


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## mind0vermatter (Jan 29, 2014)

Im sorry to hear that CBT doesnt work for you.
Personally, CBT helped me tremendously.


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## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

mind0vermatter said:


> Im sorry to hear that CBT doesnt work for you.
> Personally, CBT helped me tremendously.


I hope you don't feel offended by this question, but i have to ask then why are you on this site?
I see a lot of people on this site go on about CBT being the great cure all, but if thats the case then why are those people on this site all the time? Or are they just in the transitional phase of 'getting better?'


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

I don't understand the connection.

CBT is thinking around our bad thoughts - multiple scenarios, understanding that other people are NOT perfect and have issues, too, and that we are learning how to address ours (using terms and everything!) in areas that non-SAers don't get. They just feel anxious and don't know what to do - we are learning what to do and to not overreact to fear that is blown up in our minds.


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## tobi08 (Dec 29, 2008)

i found the same to be true. Ive tried CBT, mindfullness and EFT. 
If you dont deal with the causes of the emotions they will always come back and it seems like you are fighting an uphill battle and you always need willpower. Im also one of the person where it didnt work well, good to know that here are others who havent success with CBT. 

The best from the 3 above for me is mindfulness but even that doesnt turned me into a happy and balanced person. It just makes me accept everything etc.
have you tried to work with your feelings instead of thinking your way out? i mean just allow the feelings to arise without fighting them or rejecting them just allow them for me that is more effective., You can do that with pleasant feelings first and than work your way up to feel the negative emotions. Go out in nature and feel the warmth of the sun. Or let warm water wash over your hands and focus on the sensation just feel the warmth going into every cell of your body.
I found that to be really relaxing aswell as tai chi. There is no thinking involved only feeling of the energy.
And please get a supportive therapist, i had the luck to find one. This is a debilitating disorder and its hard to fight that alone.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

bottleofblues said:


> *I hope you don't feel offended by this question, but i have to ask then why are you on this site?
> I see a lot of people on this site go on about CBT being the great cure all, but if thats the case then why are those people on this site all the time? Or are they just in the transitional phase of 'getting better?'*


Why is there such a pissing contest to see who can be judged as the least candidate for suffering? Many questions could be asked about this site but im not going to get into it. Im pretty sure therapy like CBT has been helpful for people but for some people its not the case. Personally I cant believe what the therapist says about changing or reporgramming my thoughts, core negative conscious and unconscious beliefs or even my self image, body image, self concept, etc. A good member back named * yeah_yeah_yeah *said in the past he believes that sa is fear of humiliation and a symptom of a bigger problem. Schema therapy is more effective than traditional cbt. schema therapist go in deeper using cbt, gestalt and psycho-dynamic therapy all in one. Unfortunately I cant find a specialists in my area and can only use a book.


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## MsFatBooty (Feb 16, 2014)

bottleofblues said:


> Been reading a bit about mindfulness, i've tried a bit of it before. To be honest i think i employ some mindfulness strategies when i'm in a good mood without consciously doing it. I think mindfulness sounds more my cup of tea, CBT just seems to be about fighting myself, and i've been battling myself for years now why use another 'weapon' to carry on the fight that i just don't seem to be able to win.


theoriticaly CBT is not 'fighting yourself' but rather fighting your 'wrong signals' and habits acquired. It's about building self-confidence step by step and replacing your false beliefs with brand new or well forgotten old , rational ones.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Here is my big issue with CBT. Irrationality can go either way, but it seems that CBT only goes the one way. I have this negative thought and its irrational and so on, but then you can go completely the other way. This is where I get mixed up when I think about certain things and end up thinking in circles. For instance I know in the past I've been treated like crap which can make me go off the deep end when relating to other people. So knowing that I don't fly off the handle in my head but now I just don't know anymore, I'm so confused at my thoughts in relation to social situations and friendships. Am I being to positive or too negative, or am I just right? I have no idea.


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## jdrubnitz (Jan 26, 2013)

I have found CBT to only be nearly effective if I am regularly exercising. In other words, once again, if chemical release is in favor of a positive condition, it is easier to mold the mind.


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## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

millenniumman75 said:


> I don't understand the connection.
> 
> CBT is thinking around our bad thoughts - multiple scenarios, understanding that other people are NOT perfect and have issues, too, and that we are learning how to address ours (using terms and everything!) in areas that non-SAers don't get. They just feel anxious and don't know what to do - we are learning what to do and to not overreact to fear that is blown up in our minds.


I don't know how other peoples minds are but mine's a mess, there's a line in a song by the rap group house of pain that goes _'the thoughts i have would drive most insane'_, that how i feel about my mind.
CBT is just so neat and tidy, you're feeling a negative emotion it must be your thoughts, think a 'rational' thought and you will feel better. Except that i don't, and most of the time i'll just be repeating something to myself that i already know.
And never mind the fact that quite often an emotion will precede a negative thought anyway. For me its just a round peg in a square hole type thing, my mind is a vastly complicated maelstrom of thoughts spinning round my head at a rapid speed, CBT is so simplistic it just never works for this complicated mind of mine.


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## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

CopadoMexicano said:


> Why is there such a pissing contest to see who can be judged as the least candidate for suffering? Many questions could be asked about this site but im not going to get into it. Im pretty sure therapy like CBT has been helpful for people but for some people its not the case. Personally I cant believe what the therapist says about changing or reporgramming my thoughts, core negative conscious and unconscious beliefs or even my self image, body image, self concept, etc. A good member back named * yeah_yeah_yeah *said in the past he believes that sa is fear of humiliation and a symptom of a bigger problem. Schema therapy is more effective than traditional cbt. schema therapist go in deeper using cbt, gestalt and psycho-dynamic therapy all in one. Unfortunately I cant find a specialists in my area and can only use a book.


And thats the problem CBT just doesn't go deep enough, here's an analogy of it: say CBT is people standing on a beach facing the ocean, they know somethings coming, they're holding signs up that say 'rational statements', in the distance a tsunami is heading towards them. They start saying aloud the statements but then the tsunami which is hundreds of metres high reaches them and obliterates them, they don't stand a chance.
The tsunami is my all powerful emotions and feelings about myself, CBT is so weak and pathetic against it.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

bottleofblues said:


> I don't know how other peoples minds are but mine's a mess, there's a line in a song by the rap group house of pain that goes _'the thoughts i have would drive most insane'_, that how i feel about my mind.
> CBT is just so neat and tidy, you're feeling a negative emotion it must be your thoughts, think a 'rational' thought and you will feel better. Except that i don't, and most of the time i'll just be repeating something to myself that i already know.
> And never mind the fact that quite often an emotion will precede a negative thought anyway. For me its just a round peg in a square hole type thing, my mind is a vastly complicated maelstrom of thoughts spinning round my head at a rapid speed, CBT is so simplistic it just never works for this complicated mind of mine.


 It takes training and perhaps medication at first.
I was in that situation.....it was bad, but it improves.


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## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

I'm supposed to be joining a support group here in the near future that revolves around CBT so I find this all interesting.


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## Arete (May 14, 2011)

bottleofblues said:


> And thats the problem CBT just doesn't go deep enough, here's an analogy of it: say CBT is people standing on a beach facing the ocean, they know somethings coming, they're holding signs up that say 'rational statements', in the distance a tsunami is heading towards them. They start saying aloud the statements but then the tsunami which is hundreds of metres high reaches them and obliterates them, they don't stand a chance.
> The tsunami is my all powerful emotions and feelings about myself, CBT is so weak and pathetic against it.


That is a great analogy, and it's been my experience with CBT as well. I also agree it is better for mild anxiety, but not for moderate or severe cases.

But I also have to say I can take part of the blame for it not working. It is called cognitive-_*behavioral*_ therapy for a reason. Do you think I pay much attention to that little behavioral part. The few times I did pay attention to it, I did find tons of evidence that people are not untrustworthy monsters out to get me. But it is also monumentally harder to do than the cognitive part. That's the downfall for me. I've had actual positive social experiences quite a few times. But there's still something there holding me back.

I'm supposed to go on a date tonight. I'm fully aware that if I want, I have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. And yet, here I am, absolutely relieved that I've chosen not to go. The entire mess is completely irrational, and on that level I understand your frustration completely. But still, if I could just have someone force me to go on this date at gunpoint. And then again and again force me to attend social events for a few weeks, I bet I'd be feel 1000% better after. Alas, this is not the case. But possibly a great business idea.


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## Morpheus (May 26, 2006)

I agree that the behavioral part of CBT is very important, and very difficult.

I tried CBT in 2001 and it definitely helped me. I was on the verge of suicide and it eliminated my desire to die. It also helped with SAD, but did not completely eliminate it. I'd be dead by now if I hadn't tried it. The research says 80-90% of people with SAD improve when they try CBT.

I'm on this site for two reasons. First is that, while CBT helped with SAD its still around. There is a middle ground between a treatment being ineffective and completely curing you - and I'm in that middle ground. The second is that I've partially relapsed recently.


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