# Almost want to try religion



## Gryffindor85

I was raised Christian, but have turned Atheist in recent years. I cannot justify the believe in an existence of a god, it goes against my logical nature. Organized religion scares me as it is used to brainwash people sometimes. I just can't force myself to believe in fairy tales written in a book 1000s of years old that has been censored by people in power to further their means.

However, I feel like I should try religion just to obtain a sense of community. I believe there might be a possibility that forces exist that we cannot see, but I don't think it is as simple as the idea of a God. I'm fine with the message of Jesus, it's just the supernatural stuff that throws me off. Are there any denominations or groups within Christianity that accept liberal, open-minded, skeptics that aren't willing to take the Bible as the definitive word of God?

I hope this post makes sense


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## persona non grata

You can't really be a skeptic (certainly not skeptical about their god) and still be a Christian. You might try the Unitarian Universalists though.


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## Brax

There are Christian atheists. Which is odd, because Christ's message was a message of a God. But they exist. There are other options though. Discordians, Satanists, Setians, Humanists, other secular things that function as religion. Humanists and Universalist Unitarians tend to have the most social outlets. All quality ways of being that resonate with our non-faith. That's all I got off the top of my head. Wiki is your friend, in this case. 

Good luck.


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## Charizard

I would recommend looking into any Unitarian Universalist churches in your area. All the community and spirituality, none of the strict dogma or assumption of belief.


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## Gryffindor85

Unitarian Universalist sounds interesting. I'll look into it, thanks. One of my big problems with most religions is the belief that only one set of beliefs is correct.


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## Neptunus

Gryffindor85 said:


> Unitarian Universalist sounds interesting. I'll look into it, thanks. One of my big problems with most religions is the belief that only one set of beliefs is correct.


They have a very informative website and online church if you're interested:

http://www.uua.org/

http://clf.uua.org/


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## Gryffindor85

Neptunus said:


> They have a very informative website and online church if you're interested:
> 
> http://www.uua.org/
> 
> http://clf.uua.org/


Thanks for the links.


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## Neptunus

^ You're welcome!


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## Amileaway

I believe that Jesus's message was good, whether or not he was the son of god or just a man (I believe he was just a man, a really peaceful philosopher who happened to live during some pretty turbulent times). It's ok to draw life lessons from whatever source you find helpful, I think.



> However, I feel like I should try religion just to obtain a sense of community. I believe there might be a possibility that forces exist that we cannot see, but I don't think it is as simple as the idea of a God.


This is very insightful. I would like to tell you that I consider myself a Self-spiritualist, in that I only believe the "supernatural" experiences I've had myself. Mostly they come in the form of eerie coincidences with numbers. I see them everywhere. I think you can choose to follow any "sign" you find relevant. This is how I've managed to find meaning beyond the "known" world, without having to fall in line with some ancient message that is most likely no longer relevant.


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## Aeroflot

I have gone through phases when I have wanted to be religious, but I found out that God should be the priary focus of that, and it turned out that He wasn't. I was looking for something else in religion.


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## somemvp

Aeroflot said:


> I have gone through phases when I have wanted to be religious, but I found out that God should be the priary focus of that, and it turned out that He wasn't. I was looking for something else in religion.


Story of my life.

OP, if the community part is what you desire, find a non profit to help out. There are lots of things locally you can take part in. Volunteer at a local boys and girls club, YMCA, ect. You will meet a lot of new, nice people without having to torture yourself by attending a church.

(ps God isn't real)


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## yryt

mmm maybe read about Islam ?


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## triumphtr79

Gryffindor85 said:


> However, I feel like I should try religion just to obtain a sense of community.


I can understand what you're saying, it's sort of a social outlet in itself. But I think a better way to belong to something where you're not forced to embrace a set of beliefs would be a club or something where people simply share common interests but have them freedom to be themselves.


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## britisharrow

I emphatise with you Gryffindor85. Although many people had a very bad experience in Catholicism, I went to Catholic school and I was treated well and had great conversations with young and old priests who I believe in their heart thought they were in a mission for the greater good.

However, as I have matured, I can no longer reconcile my sense of logic with the teachings of Catholicism or Christianity as a whole.

I feel a loss. I understand that you may not be Catholic but that you may understand this sense of loss within the context of your own church. The Catholic community to me was not just a religion but a cultural identity. Even though I have left the church I still miss Mass, I miss the community, the silence and reflection in church, and I miss having really good philosophical discussions with the priests.

In Britain being Catholic is not just a religion, as I said it is a part of your cultural identity. Even if you don't agree with the pope or Christianity, it somehow feels wrong to speak against it - and yet I do believe against it in my inner thinking.

I therefore have no choice but to have fond memories of my times visiting various priests as a young man, where they would sit me down with toast and coffee and discuss philosophy. These were good men and not the men who committed the horrible crimes for which the church has been rightly condemned.

I was lucky, I had a great upbringing as a young Catholic man and the priest's door was always opened to any question I had. Others' experiences are different and for them I have the deepest of sympathy.

Now I go on and face the world as a non-religious person, but with fond memories of the humourous and intellectual men who chose to commit themselves to a creed to which I no longer subscribe.

But Community EXISTS outwith religion. The way you are kind to old women crossing the street, the way that you give money to charity, or help a blind person, pick up litter, vote, help clean up your local store owner's flooded shop. This is community and you can be a part of it.


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## whiteraven4

I don't know much about Christianity, but there is a sect of Judaism in the US called Reconstructionist Judaism. It's basically all the cultural part none of the religious part. They don't believe in a god, don't believe the Jewish people are special or anything like that. It's more just celebrating the history and culture.


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## GregPotts96

You're definitely not the only one who's feeling this way. I've been Atheist since 2009, but recently I've really been thinking about going...back. Not because I want to go to standardized brainwashing per se, but my life just had more meaning back then, it seems. I was Penecostal, and ever since I've become Atheist, the people who went to that church that were once respected elders by me, no longer seem to even want to talk to me solely due to my beliefs.

Just think about what you want to do, and do it! I've been pondering this thought for a long time, and honestly, I want to find some sort of higher power to put my faith in.


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## scriabin221

There's nothing wrong with that, a lot of people do that. I kind of want to start going to church too. Not really for the community, but I love the music and the art work.


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## Glacial

Charizard said:


> I would recommend looking into any Unitarian Universalist churches in your area. All the community and spirituality, none of the strict dogma or assumption of belief.


:ditto UU churches will give the sense of community you are looking for without forcing any particular religion on you. UU churches may have people who believe in certain deities, but also consists of agnostics and even atheists. I have been before and they are a very accepting and are a laid back group of people. I actually felt meditated and refreshed after the service. The focus was more on be a humanitarian, not worshiping any particular god.


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## millenniumman75

Gryffindor85 said:


> I was raised Christian, but have turned Atheist in recent years. I cannot justify the believe in an existence of a god, it goes against my logical nature. Organized religion scares me as it is used to brainwash people sometimes. I just can't force myself to believe in fairy tales written in a book 1000s of years old that has been censored by people in power to further their means.
> 
> However, I feel like I should try religion just to obtain a sense of community. I believe there might be a possibility that forces exist that we cannot see, but I don't think it is as simple as the idea of a God. I'm fine with the message of Jesus, it's just the supernatural stuff that throws me off. Are there any denominations or groups within Christianity that accept liberal, open-minded, skeptics that aren't willing to take the Bible as the definitive word of God?
> 
> I hope this post makes sense


Maybe you weren't in the right church. They can be messed up, too.


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## komorikun

I went to the Unitarian Universalist church a few times as a teenager with my family. They're pretty cool. Mostly upper-middle class and very liberal. The reverend/minister was a gay guy. I also went to their summer camp for teenagers. They sold condoms at the camp store and had a sex ed class involving cucumbers and condoms.


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## jonny neurotic

IMO religion is basically irrational. To have faith in something for which there is no evidence makes no sense. I have faith in some people(that is I trust them and believe that they are generally well intentioned). This faith is based on experience. 

Anyway. There are other ways that you can have a communial experience without religion being involved. You could take up a sport or martial art, or take night classes. You will meet people with whom you share intersts and enjoy yourself too without being preached at.


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## T-Bone

The way i see it, religion is not the way to go. Not for me anyhow. I believe in a supernatural being, but choosing a mortal man to represtent all of creation seems silly to me. Religion was just the earliest form of govt. to keep people in line by striking fear into them.


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## tardisblue

I like the idea of a church for the community aspect. People who go to church are "average" people, the way I see it anyway. 

I've been to skeptics and atheist meetups, and no offense to them, it's very much a nerdy, male-dominated club. I've already got access to people like that in my life. With church, you have a broader base of people. Maybe I should check out this Unitarian Universalist thing.


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## Elizabeth419

Gryffindor85 said:


> Unitarian Universalist sounds interesting. I'll look into it, thanks. One of my big problems with most religions is the belief that only one set of beliefs is correct.


In that case the Unitarian Church works..so does the B'hai faith (did I even spell that remotely correct?)

You could also look into philosophical ecclecticism. I highly recommend it.


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## MrBakura91

Ive been an Atheist for about 3 years I think. But once I felt how you felt. I at one point tried to believe again for a sense of community but I could'nt accept the thought of throwing away my skeptical thinking for what temporarily feels good. But I also asked myself what about the community I already have (family, freinds) arent they important enough?


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## UltraShy

komorikun said:


> I went to the *Unitarian Universalist* church a few times as a teenager with my family. They're pretty cool. Mostly upper-middle class and very liberal. The reverend/minister was a gay guy. I also went to their summer camp for teenagers. They sold condoms at the camp store and had a *sex ed class involving cucumbers and condoms.*


I hope those weren't the really huge cucumbers -- not many men could live up to such a massive standard. Does sound more effective than telling your teens "don't do it" and then praying they follow those orders.

They're the church that believes in noting basically, right?

OK, just looked it up on Wikipedia:

*



Unitarian Universalism

Click to expand...

*


> is a religion characterized by *support for a "free and responsible search for **truth** and **meaning**"*.[1] Unitarian Universalists do not share a creed; rather, they are unified by their shared search for spiritual growth and by the understanding that an individual's theology is a result of that search and not obedience to an authoritarian requirement. Unitarian Universalists draw on many different theological sources and have a wide range of beliefs and practices.
> Historically, both Unitarianism and Universalism have roots in the Christian faith. Contemporary Unitarian Universalists espouse a pluralist approach to religion, whereby the followers may be atheist, deist, theist, polytheist, or have no label at all.


It certainly stands out from the pack. Other religions have a whole giant pile of dogma, while these folks range from believing there is no god to those who believe in an entire collection of gods.

It's quite a rarity for me to agree with any religion, but even I can support a free search for truth, something most religion don't like as you're not supposed to "question the lord!!!" It says they're united by their "search for spiritual growth." How can an atheist, as some of their followers are, be spiritual?:stu

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how such a religion would work. How does a reverend/minister give a sermon? He can't speak about what god wants you to do as that would be entirely lost on the atheists in their congregation, and the polytheists would correct him, asking that the plural be used.


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## UltraShy

jonny neurotic said:


> IMO religion is basically irrational. To have faith in something for which there is no evidence makes no sense.


Faith only comes into play when there is a lack of evidence. Nobody has faith that 2+2=4. We all know that equation to be true, no faith needed.



jonny neurotic said:


> I have faith in some people(that is I trust them and believe that they are generally well intentioned). This faith is based on experience.


That's different from religious faith though where one typically believes in a god they can't even be sure exists. You're trusing some people who have shown a pattern of behavior that demonstrates they are worthy of your trust. If you had religion-type faith in people you'd say "well, she said she'd meet me here for a first date a 7:00, so I'm sure she didn't just blow me off" as the hours pass.



> Anyway. There are other ways that you can have a communial experience without religion being involved. You could take up a sport or martial art, or take night classes. You will meet people with whom you share interests and enjoy yourself too without being preached at.


I too was thinking about various group activities that don't involve religion. That presents a problem for me: I am interested in so very few things & SA is a giant roadblock from pursing the few things I might have any interest in. Damn SA.:mum


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## jonny neurotic

UltraShy said:


> I too was thinking about various group activities that don't involve religion. That presents a problem for me: I am interested in so very few things & SA is a giant roadblock from pursing the few things I might have any interest in. Damn SA.:mum


Yeah. I have a plan a hatchin'. I have two things that have been holding me back. ADHD and SA. My intention is to get the right medication to be able to manage both then submerge myself in the things that both these conditions have prevented me from doing. I plan to read endless books, write endless essays and go to loads of discussion classes and language classes where I will have to interact with other people. The trouble is getting the meds. As much as I like the idea of an NHS they have a lot to answer for in terms of their mental health policies. I plan on hounding them for the rest of my time here on planet earth, so lots of long letters and no doubt meetings where the efficacy of any meds I am on will be surely tested...


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## millenniumman75

Gryffindor85 said:


> I was raised Christian, but have turned Atheist in recent years. I cannot justify the believe in an existence of a god, it goes against my logical nature. Organized religion scares me as it is used to brainwash people sometimes. I just can't force myself to believe in fairy tales written in a book 1000s of years old that has been censored by people in power to further their means.
> 
> However, I feel like I should try religion just to obtain a sense of community. I believe there might be a possibility that forces exist that we cannot see, but I don't think it is as simple as the idea of a God. I'm fine with the message of Jesus, it's just the supernatural stuff that throws me off. Are there any denominations or groups within Christianity that accept liberal, open-minded, skeptics that aren't willing to take the Bible as the definitive word of God?
> 
> I hope this post makes sense


I don't know, man. You know how we Christian kooks are.

Seriously, faith is faith - there is nothing spookified about that. You'd need to watch for the "liberal" churches, though - they could be more dangerous than no church at all. On the flip side, I was in one that you described - the exact opposite. Strict to the point where it was a cult and the pastors were literally controlling people's lives (21-day Daniel fasts three times a year - you weren't cool unless you did it with everybody else). If it is done for the wrong reason, that's just one kind of danger. I nearly had a nervous breakdown when I left that place - they tried to kick me out twice for what amounted to SA! They tried to bring me back in early 2005 - right after I joined SAS, but I wouldn't go for it!

Fortunately, I found a church that wasn't liberal, but wasn't that extreme either.


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## jpb

I recognize your symptoms: you're having dogma withdrawals. I have the same problem. Life was simpler with everyone at church telling me how to think. That's the cost of admission for built-in friends.

I think the best advice is to find a form of community that isn't based on dogmatism and social control. Find a sport or hobby. Volunteer somewhere. Join a club. 

If you must persist with church, you could check out the Religious Society of Friends (i.e. the Quakers). Some of the more liberal branches might be of interest to you. I hear they have "prayer meetings" where nobody preaches, but anybody can speak their mind at any time. Doesn't matter if you're atheist or Christian.

You might also check out ritual magic, kaballah, and occultism in general. There are plenty of communities where people explore ritual and mystical experience apart from dogma. Occultism helped wean me from Christianity to atheism.


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## MrBakura91

I would agree with the first half of what the poster above said. ("I think the best advice is to find a form of community that isn't based on dogmatism and social control. Find a sport or hobby. Volunteer somewhere. Join a club.") But I don't know if trying to go to another spirituality (Kaballah, Ocultism) would be the best idea, I don't think going from one superstition to another does any good. When I started questioning Christianity I was convinced there had to be some other spiritual explanation but after reading came to the realization that those weren't any more true. I think you should think to yourself "What do I Know are facts"? and what can be tested before jumping to any metaphysical conclusions.


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## jpb

To me, the difference between occultism and religion is that occultism consciously acknowledges that it is working with symbols and not reality. (At least with the occult ideas I gravitated toward.) It enabled me to explore my own mind in a spiritualized capacity, while still acknowledging that it was only imagination.

Alan Moore was the guy who got me hooked on this stuff. He "worships" a snake deity, Glycon, from a 2nd century Greek cult, which was exposed as a hoax in the form of a hand puppet. I love that gesture: acknowledging that some people need spirituality to have meaning in their lives, yet still admitting it's all a sham. Read _Promethea _if that sounds at all interesting to you.

I only bring up the occult because, to me, it was helpful. Like going from heroin to methadone. It's not the end goal, but it's still better than going back to church.


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## MrBakura91

jpb said:


> To me, the difference between occultism and religion is that occultism consciously acknowledges that it is working with symbols and not reality. (At least with the occult ideas I gravitated toward.) It enabled me to explore my own mind in a spiritualized capacity, while still acknowledging that it was only imagination.
> 
> Alan Moore was the guy who got me hooked on this stuff. He "worships" a snake deity, Glycon, from a 2nd century Greek cult, which was exposed as a hoax in the form of a hand puppet. I love that gesture: acknowledging that some people need spirituality to have meaning in their lives, yet still admitting it's all a sham. Read _Promethea _if that sounds at all interesting to you.
> 
> I only bring up the occult because, to me, it was helpful. Like going from heroin to methadone. It's not the end goal, but it's still better than going back to church.


Ok I see what you mean, I'm not really familiar with Occultism. When I made my transition the other spiritualities I considered/tried to get into were more Abrahamic things like Mormonism or Unitarianism. So I never had any experience with Occultism myself.


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## kanra

Yeah, religion can be comforting in a way... sometimes I wish I could actually believe in things like God just for the comfort of knowing there's someone there that always loves you and knows what you're going through or whatever, and feeling like part of a community. Except there's problems with sins, too... (If someone loves you so much, won't they forgive you for your sins instead of send you to suffer forever in hell for making one or two mistakes??)
Then again, there's people who don't believe in hell and are Christian anyway. (Well, what about the assh*les then? Do they go to heaven along with all the good people?? What's the point?)
I wouldn't be able to try religion. I'd feel like I'd be lying to myself. It's like forcing myself to believe in the easter bunny, it just doesn't work...


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## orpheus

millenniumman75 said:


> I don't know, man. You know how we Christian kooks are.
> 
> Seriously, faith is faith - there is nothing spookified about that. You'd need to watch for the "liberal" churches, though - they could be more dangerous than no church at all.
> 
> .


Why, because they have pastors who believe people are born gay? They believe the poor shouldn't be shunned? What do you mean by dangerous?


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## ryobi

I'm in the same boat. I want to believe, but I can't. I can't really seem to believe in the christian dogma and I've had too many bad experiences with, "real life" christians.
Too many of them seem obsessed with class, money, and war. But christians seem to have more successful lives than non-believers. I kind of wish I could believe sometimes.


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## ryobi

persona non grata said:


> You can't really be a skeptic (certainly not skeptical about their god) and still be a Christian. You might try the Unitarian Universalists though.


I went to a Unitarian Universalist church once. The lady that greeted me wouldn't let go of my hand when we shook hands. She must of held onto my hand for a good 5 minutes-uggh


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## Hippo

I was religious, and during college I joined a church and had lots of friends my age, even a girlfriend. But i had simply become habituated to these people. When I left, I was back to square one. 

So I think going to church can give a social phobic person a temporary social boost, but it wears off, and in my case I found that after I'd left, I hadn't really learnt any social skills. I learnt to obey my pastor, and pray in public, but nothing useful over the long run.


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## Sage Sagan

Gryffindor85 said:


> Are there any denominations or groups within Christianity that accept liberal, open-minded, skeptics that aren't willing to take the Bible as the definitive word of God?


Why turn to a religion?

It seems from your post that you're seeking a philosophy, social identity, or a set of ethics to abide by. While there's nothing wrong with this--I would actually argue it's an imperative in human nature--it almost seems like you're shooting yourself in the temple by going back to what you detest, instead of pursuing alternatives.

Yes, religion can provide these things, but so can organizations such as The Skeptics Society, American Atheists, or other numerous humanist, atheist, agnostic, freethinking, skepticism, or rationality-embracing groups and societies. I assure you, they'll be far more tolerate than many of their counterparts, without forcing you to adopt ideals you disagree with or leave your brain on the front doorstep before coming in.

That is, of course, unless you refuse to hail Satan three times a day, wear black on Sundays, and spit at people in the movie theaters.


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## MoniqueS

I can see where you are coming from. Many times, I have just wished I could believe in god and have faith. I know it helps give purpose and direction to a lot of people, so it provides some comfort in what is a very confusing world. But I just lack that faith or believe that the bible and religion isn't just literature.


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## Aeroflot

There's also *Religious Naturalism*.

It's essentially atheism. It recognizes that humans naturally seek a spiritual connection with the world. Some religious naturalists use God-language, which means that they have a concept of God, but that this God does not transcend the physical world. God, depending upon the individual, can be a symbol for the unknown, a symbol for time, for growth -- for any host of forces.


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## RenegadeReloaded

jonny neurotic said:


> IMO religion is basically irrational. To have faith in something for which there is no evidence makes no sense.


I'm struggling with the same thing.


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## philosophy

Why seek religion when you can develop a personal relationship with God himself? Vain religious rituals and sacraments that supposedly bring you closer to God, end up doing the exact opposite - alienation. God is found through genuine repentance, prayer, fasting (food or from worldliness) and than you will notice a change in your heart and God will become real to you. Reading the bible is key too, but without the Holy Spirit's guidance, people will not be able to grasp the true meanings of the parables. Also, humility is one of the most important attitudes to have when seeking God.


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## jpb

^^^

I just don't get it. I don't go into the Spiritual Support forum and extol the virtues of atheism. Please do not post again or I'll flag you. I might flag you, anyway.


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## millenniumman75

orpheus said:


> Why, because they have pastors who believe people are born gay? They believe the poor shouldn't be shunned? What do you mean by dangerous?


 No - because they were doing the things they preached about that we are NOT to do.

Dangerous is a kind of spiritual abuse, using one's faith as control. Faith is not done by works alone <- that is just one area where dangerous churches are.


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## Knowbody

If religion wasn't so anti science and anti history _(I say this because it basically REWRITES it to serve its own purpose)_ then I wouldn't mind being religious again

however that will never happen.

also, do Unitarian Universalist aka atheist churches require that u pay 10 percent of your income?


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## Gryffindor85

ryobi said:


> I'm in the same boat. I want to believe, but I can't. I can't really seem to believe in the christian dogma and I've had too many bad experiences with, "real life" christians.
> Too many of them seem obsessed with class, money, and war. But christians seem to have more successful lives than non-believers. I kind of wish I could believe sometimes.


I agree with you about "real life" Christians. My personal virtues are totally different than those people. Class, money, and war are the root of the current problems our country faces. There are genuine Christians out there, but they seem to be few and far between.

There are successful atheists as well.


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## JGreenwood

I stoppped going to church in high school when a member of the church(an older gentleman living on disability) who was not the cleanest or well groomed of fellows(due to being mentally handicapped in some form) was told he had to eat outside at a church function because he might "gross out" the other members of the church. Me and 3 of my friends(at the time) took our plates outside and ate with him. He was a nice guys with great stories(some true, some not I suspect). This was the beginning of me seriously questioning religion and it's purposes.

lately, i've been thinking about going back. I WANT to believe there is a God and that my life isn't just a random ball of crap for no reason. I almost walked into a church last Sunday, but instead I broke down crying and walked back home.


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## philosophy

JGreenwood said:


> I stoppped going to church in high school when a member of the church(an older gentleman living on disability) who was not the cleanest or well groomed of fellows(due to being mentally handicapped in some form) was told he had to eat outside at a church function because he might "gross out" the other members of the church. Me and 3 of my friends(at the time) took our plates outside and ate with him. He was a nice guys with great stories(some true, some not I suspect). This was the beginning of me seriously questioning religion and it's purposes.


Don't let people like that turn you away from Christianity. Jesus primarily dealt with the lowly and afflicted people, that the Pharisees would judge and throw out. We see the same sort of patterns forming in these days.

_And He also went on to say to the one who had invited Him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, otherwise they may also invite you in return and that will be your repayment. "But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."_ - Luke 14:12-14

_When Jesus heard it, he said unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance._ - Mark 2:17


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## Sage Sagan

JGreenwood said:


> lately, i've been thinking about going back. I WANT to believe there is a God and that my life isn't just a random ball of crap for no reason. I almost walked into a church last Sunday, but instead I broke down crying and walked back home.


Why does it have to be a random ball of crap for no reason?

You're a human. You experience sadness, happiness, pain, pleasure, the lowest of lows, the greatest of joys. There is millions upon millions (billions, actually), of lifeless or empty planets in the Milky Way alone, and you have been given the opportunity to explore and be aware of the universe around you. Is that not reason to celebrate by itself? Who says you cannot make a reason for yourself if you are indeed without one?

Do you _really_ prefer the idea of man with a white beard above the sky (or past the galaxy, beyond the dimensions and universe, or whatever deus ex machina theists create when it's proven false) crafting your life's journey for you anyways?


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## JGreenwood

Sage Sagan said:


> Why does it have to be a random ball of crap for no reason? Also, do you _really_ prefer the idea of man with a white beard above the sky (or past the galaxy, beyond the dimensions and universe, or whatever deus ex machina theists create when it's proven false) crafting your life's journey for you?


If there is no God controlling things, or no grand creator there is no master plan, there is no great design. Therefore we exist for NO reason. We weren't "created" we were just an accident. Freaks of nature who have no bearing on anyting. Which makes everything we do within our "lives" completely useless in the end and make humans the very definition of insignificant.

If God DOES exist, then at least there's a reason for the pain and suffering, the heartache and loss, the fears and the tears, the magic and the tragic.

I'd prefer my existence be validated in some way, even though I don't believe in a God and/or Gods. I'd love to be proven wrong when my life finally ends.


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## Sage Sagan

JGreenwood said:


> If there is no God controlling things, or no grand creator there is no master plan, there is no great design. Therefore we exist for NO reason.


Let us assume there is no deity or deities and no master plan for each individual.

Is that reason to not make meaning for oneself? My life plan is to do as much as I can for any human in need- to aid any man or woman who needs my help. I also seek to learn all I can about the universe, our galaxy in it, and the Earth inside of that. I want to know how things exist, and why. These are purposes for living I instilled in myself, for myself- I believe you may have similar goals yourself. I have an intermediate goal of acquiring a four year education, and having a family in the late future. You and I both have an immediate goal- mine is to make a sandwich for lunch at twelve o'clock. Small or great, goals and plans can be made for ourselves.

Purpose *can* be created or discovered. It is not set in stone.



JGreenwood said:


> We weren't "created" we were just an accident. Freaks of nature who have no bearing on anyting. Which makes everything we do within our "lives" completely useless in the end and make humans the very definition of insignificant.


Through evil or good, each of us wields power to change both the world and each other's lives- I don't mean that in a bland, New Age sense, but literally. Humans scar the ground and mar the world with wars, toxins, and trash. Humans save lives by donating blood or sharing knowledge and technology- we're significant in that sense.



JGreenwood said:


> If God DOES exist, then at least there's a reason for the pain and suffering, the heartache and loss, the fears and the tears, the magic and the tragic.


I believe it worse to know there exists a being who wields the power to halt constant bloodshed and wars but does not - who has the strength to prevent lives from being scarred by child molestation or rape but decides against it - who holds the ability to remove the starvation which plagues much of our world but lets it be, then to not know. Perhaps this God wills it all to occur- makes it happen, even. I would _prefer_ that tragedies such as the car who kills a single mother and leaves her two kids helpless and alone is an act of chaos and misfortune. I would _prefer_ that the evil and accidents of our lives were not orchestrated by God since our genesis. As for the good, I would _prefer_ the wonderful things in my world happen through human ingenuity and generosity - that kindness is not done out of fear of divine punishment or coercion, but through unpolluted, genuine desire.



JGreenwood said:


> I'd prefer my existence be validated in some way, even though I don't believe in a God and/or Gods. I'd love to be proven wrong when my life finally ends.


I would be pleased to discover true what I hold to be unlikely, but more out of curiosity than satisfaction. If I die and meet the God of the Koran, Bible, or Torah, I will find it intensely dissatisfying to discover the sole purpose of living, breathing, laughing, crying, and dying was only to be herded into heaven with other mortals so we may pay glory to an insecure deity for all eternity.



JGreenwood said:


> ...makes everything we do within our "lives" completely useless in the end and make humans the very definition of insignificant.


To me, meeting your God would make humans and their lives the very definition of insignificant.


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## Amocholes

jpb said:


> ^^^
> 
> I just don't get it. I don't go into the Spiritual Support forum and extol the virtues of atheism. Please do not post again or I'll flag you. I might flag you, anyway.


His posts are on topic and appropriate for the subject.


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## jpb

From the forum rules, according to the sticky:

"People who identify themselves as agnostic or atheist are likely to be doing most of the posting in here. That doesn't mean you can't post in this forum if you aren't one of them. It just means that the posts in the forum should focus on topics related to those belief systems and *not be coming from someone who obviously has an agenda that is contrary purpose of this forum*. Threads that primarily are questioning agnostic/atheist beliefs from an outsider perspectiv take over part of the conversation in a forum that isn't for them. I'm not taking sides here. We have had to deal with quite a few people who make posts that are not appropriate for the the spirituality forum."

From his comments and his quoting of scripture, this user "obviously has an agenda contrary to the purpose of this forum." He is proselytizing for Christianity.


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## jonny neurotic

philosophy said:


> Reading the bible is key too


Or perhaps even the qur'an...

ಠ‿ಠ



Amocholes said:


> His posts are on topic and appropriate for the subject.


Funny. A while back I posted on a thread in the "Spiritual Support" forum. I accessed it through the new posts tab and didn't realise what forum it was in so when my post was deleted I thought it was fair enough. The thread was about some one losing their faith in God and I jokingly wrote something to the effect of "Join the dark side. Become an atheist." Now I look at this thread and it is the converse, some one who is an atheist considering religion and posting in the "Atheist and Agnostic Support" forum. But here when a religious person here suggests a particular religion it is deemed by you to be OK. Double standards, me thinks...


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## Sage Sagan

jonny neurotic said:


> Funny. A while back I posted on a thread in the "Spiritual Support" forum. I accessed it through the new posts tab and didn't realise what forum it was in so when my post *was deleted* I thought it was fair enough. The thread was about some one losing their faith in God and I jokingly wrote something to the effect of "Join the dark side. Become an atheist." Now I look at this thread and it is the converse, some one who is an atheist considering religion and posting in the "Atheist and Agnostic Support" forum.* But here when a religious person here suggests a particular religion it is deemed by you to be OK.* Double standards, me thinks...


Why stoop to a lower level?


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## philosophy

The OP is considering spirituality and religious beliefs, so I figured my input would be suitable and appropriate for this thread. I had and have no intentions of ridiculing atheism or other aggressive tactics which create flame wars. However, if this caused offense to some, than accept my apology. This thread maybe should have been posted in spiritual support, perhaps?


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## Sage Sagan

philosophy said:


> The OP is considering spirituality and religious beliefs, so I figured my input would be suitable and appropriate for this thread. I had and have no intentions of ridiculing atheism or other aggressive tactics which create flame wars. However, if this caused offense to some, than accept my apology. This thread maybe should have been posted in spiritual support, perhaps?


I agree with Philosophy, and I find your presence warranted.


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## jpb

philosophy said:


> The OP is considering spirituality and religious beliefs, so I figured my input would be suitable and appropriate for this thread. I had and have no intentions of ridiculing atheism or other aggressive tactics which create flame wars. However, if this caused offense to some, than accept my apology. This thread maybe should have been posted in spiritual support, perhaps?


If someone posts in the Agnostic and Atheist Support forum, even if they are considering religion, I am assuming they want agnostic and atheist perspectives... not Bible verses. If that isn't the case, then I stand corrected, and think the thread should have been posted elsewhere.

It's important to me that this forum is reserved as a safe place for agnostics and atheists to interact with each other, without the distraction of preaching from the faithful. There is a separate forum for those exchanges to take place. I respect the Spiritual Support forum by not defending atheism there, and I expect reciprocal treatment here.


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## philosophy

Fair enough, mate.


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## jpb

Thanks for understanding.


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## ryobi

It doesn't bother me that Christians post in this forum


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## millenniumman75

JGreenwood said:


> I stoppped going to church in high school when a member of the church(an older gentleman living on disability) who was not the cleanest or well groomed of fellows(due to being mentally handicapped in some form) was told he had to eat outside at a church function because he might "gross out" the other members of the church. Me and 3 of my friends(at the time) took our plates outside and ate with him. He was a nice guys with great stories(some true, some not I suspect). This was the beginning of me seriously questioning religion and it's purposes.
> 
> lately, i've been thinking about going back. I WANT to believe there is a God and that my life isn't just a random ball of crap for no reason. I almost walked into a church last Sunday, but instead I broke down crying and walked back home.





philosophy said:


> Don't let people like that turn you away from Christianity. Jesus primarily dealt with the lowly and afflicted people, that the Pharisees would judge and throw out. We see the same sort of patterns forming in these days.
> 
> _And He also went on to say to the one who had invited Him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, otherwise they may also invite you in return and that will be your repayment. "But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."_ - Luke 14:12-14
> 
> _When Jesus heard it, he said unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance._ - Mark 2:17


The church that nearly gave me a nervous breakdown did the same thing. There was a guy who would appear and would "creep people out" and would show up at the restaurant we would "hang out" at after services. People would pay for his dinner and stuff. He apparently lived in a motel room and rode a bicycle everywhere.

It was rumored shortly before my near-breakdown that the church leadership had accused him of theft or something like that and gave him a paid ticket out of the area. And I wonder why they scared me to death.

God has definitely made His point know at that church in the 7 1/2 years since I left....on MORE than one occasion.


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## jpb

ryobi said:


> It doesn't bother me that Christians post in this forum


It doesn't bother me, either, as long as they're not preaching or quoting the Bible or generally trying to convert us. I see no problem with the above post, for example.


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## ryobi

jpb said:


> It doesn't bother me, either, as long as they're not preaching or quoting the Bible or generally trying to convert us. I see no problem with the above post, for example.


That stuff doesn't bother me either unless other opinions and ideas aren't acceptable
only allowing one perspective doesn't seem right
It does seem hypocritical though that only one perspective is allowed in the spiritual forum but multiple perspectives are allowed in the atheist forum


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## Gryffindor85

I have no problems with Christians posting in this thread. I just figured atheist and agnostics would have a different viewpoint instead of trying to convert me.


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## gusstaf

I feel the same way...part of me would like the sense of community there is at church. I was part of the Lutheran church on campus while at college and made a few wonderful friends. But I always felt like a fraud, because no matter how hard I tried, I simply could not believe in God.


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## lightsout

I can _sort of_ relate to the OP - regarding part of a community. I was raised Catholic for about the first 10 years of my life (whole family gradually stopped going to church...don't know why, but that's irrelevant) As I "grew into my adult mind" I became more about science and just being a "good guy" without focusing on what's after death or "the big picture". My best friend (well, only friend) actually *became* Catholic post high school (we're 23/24 now) and actually became a "leader" in a Catholic Young Adult group (college age kids of the Catholic churches in east-county San Diego). For a while has let me come to the events/gatherings they do (being a cool friend & knowing the only time I really do anything socially is when it's with him). We never really do anything religion-centered (at least now when I've gone), just peer activities like hiking or picnics or game- & movie-nights. It feels pretty good to have found peers who are of my "temperament" (as compared to maybe young people who like to go get hammered at a bar & "get wild"). Not that I couldn't elsewhere, but given limited social-activity this was a "good fix".

However, I have realized I probably won't be able to "meet" anyone -- woman wise & that's a pretty big limitation (since they're the only peers I'm exposed to outside of my best friend). Not that anyone I've met so far are fundamentalists who couldn't interact with someone who doesn't believe in a god, but I think in a serious relationship you'd want someone with pretty similar beliefs to yourself (& even if I was more spiritual I wouldn't attend a church).

I like how one poster suggested about working at a non-profit type group to have a community. I just thought I'd share my experience of it "working out" (basically).


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## millenniumman75

Gryffindor85 said:


> I was raised Christian, but have turned Atheist in recent years. I cannot justify the believe in an existence of a god, it goes against my logical nature. *Organized religion scares me as it is used to brainwash people sometimes. I just can't force myself to believe in fairy tales written in a book 1000s of years old that has been censored by people in power to further their means.*
> 
> However, I feel like I should try religion just to obtain a sense of community. I believe there might be a possibility that forces exist that we cannot see, but I don't think it is as simple as the idea of a God. I'm fine with the message of Jesus, it's just the supernatural stuff that throws me off. Are there any denominations or groups within Christianity that accept liberal, open-minded, skeptics that aren't willing to take the Bible as the definitive word of God?
> 
> I hope this post makes sense


Why not just read the Bible yourself and see what you can get out of it?


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## millenniumman75

ryobi said:


> That stuff doesn't bother me either unless other opinions and ideas aren't acceptable
> only allowing one perspective doesn't seem right
> It does seem hypocritical though that only one perspective is allowed in the spiritual forum but multiple perspectives are allowed in the atheist forum


Now we can't help that - we may want to think our own way, but that is not always the best thing to do.

Bending things to get our way is what has been causing a lot of legal problems these days. People just don't want to follow the law anymore.


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## DrakeN

Why don't you just join a club for something you enjoy?


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## jonny neurotic

Gryffindor85 said:


> I have no problems with Christians posting in this thread. I just figured atheist and agnostics would have a different viewpoint instead of trying to convert me.


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## LoneWolf111

it sounds as if you just want a sense of community...to belong to something. some people dont want to belong to anything, because they want to be individuals and not be a "sheep" just following a crowd. it sounds contradictory, what you are saying.


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## Shrinking Violet

I've considered joining a church for the community too, but I'm also getting more interested in religion/spirituality. I've been agnostic for many years, but I keep coming across religious (usually Christian) quotes, songs, sentiments, etc. that really resonate with me - like they're answering questions that I have.

I have been very skeptical about religion because you have to believe things whether you understand them rationally or not. I think this is a terribly convenient way to brainwash and control people. On the other hand, I keep seeing very profound truth in some traditional religions. I hold many of the same values as a Christian, yet I've chosen them all rationally.


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## mr t

The youtube video begins saying "fundamentalist christians and evangelicals"

Are all christians fundamentalist and evangelicals? *No*

I'm Catholic and I dont believe everything in the bible is truth.

The example that comes up all the time: Adam and Eve

Of course that story isnt true. Its a *PARABLE: a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.*

The story of Adam and Eve is simply a parable to illustrate the belief that God created the universe. If you take it literally you don't have much common sense, that applies to anyone.

If you can take anything away from the bible: its teaching you to live a virtuous life, love one another, etc.. Do you have to be a christian to live a nobel life? No

Its ridiculous to say things like "God is evil". Theres always been the raging debate if God even EXISTS! So this claim is saying he does exist and is evil?

The bible describes a loving God who sent his only son to die on the cross for our sin. Whether you believe it or not, whats evil about that?

I keep hearing "oh christianity is BRAINWASHING!!"
Oh, and these ridiculous youtube videos that people keep referencing are valid and not brainwashing individuals? YOUTUBE IS TRUTH and full of SUBSTANCE! That video is probably saved under your favorites right along with "Sneezing Panda". Give me a break


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## Toppington

ryobi said:


> It doesn't bother me that Christians post in this forum


I really don't understand why they do and proceed to be surprised and get all upset when people don't agree with them. What do you expect from the Agnostic and Atheist Support section?


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## Neptunus

^ 
People of all beliefs are allowed to post here -and in the Spirituality Support forum -as long as they stay on topic and are supportive.



> Agnosticism & Atheism Support guidelines:
> 
> Rules:
> 
> Consider this forum the equivalent of the Spiritual Support (Spirituality) forum that has existed for many years and has never allowed debate. Take a look over the threads in that forum if you aren't sure what I mean. It's pretty clear how people are using it.
> *People who identify themselves as agnostic or atheist are likely to be doing most of the posting in here. That doesn't mean you can't post in this forum if you aren't one of them. It just means that the posts in the forum should focus on topics related to those belief systems and not be coming from someone who obviously has an agenda that is contrary purpose of this forum. *Threads that primarily are questioning agnostic/atheist beliefs from an outsider perspectiv take over part of the conversation in a forum that isn't for them. I'm not taking sides here.We have had to deal with quite a few people who make posts that are not appropriate for the the spirituality forum.
> Again, if you want to debate, go to the Agnosticism, Atheism and Religion forum. This forum is for support.


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## Toppington

Neptunus said:


> ^
> People of all beliefs are allowed to post here -and in the Spirituality Support forum -as long as they stay on topic and are supportive.


I never said it wasn't allowed, I just said I don't get why they get so offended when it's made up of primarily Agnostics and Atheists. I just don't understand what they expect.


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## Neptunus

^ Oops, misread your post. Ah well, just a reminder then!


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

You can be, I suppose, as long as you never voice them. If you do, Christians will tear you apart.


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