# The Ultimate Mood Elevator (could it be this simple?)



## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

L-dopa
5-HTP
Carbidopa
I'm racking my brain as to why this wouldn't work, but I can't think of any reasons.

L-dopa is a direct dopamine & noradrenaline precursor, and 5-HTP is a direct serotonin precursor. Carbidopa inhibits the peripheral formation of dopamine and serotonin, but not in the brain, and is given to Parkinson's sufferers with L-dopa to ensure it only becomes dopamine and noradrenaline in the brain. So basically the combo delivers these two neurotransmitters direct to the brain. However, carbidopa also inhibits the peripheral formation of serotonin, so I'm thinking maybe that reduction in peripheral serotonin is responsible for the low blood pressure seen with the use of carbidopa + L-dopa. Likewise, the carbidopa + 5-HTP combo should decrease peripheral dopamine, but none of this should happen with all three combined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatic-L-amino-acid_decarboxylase

In any case, taking L-dopa, 5-HTP and carbidopa together should deliver serotonin, dopamine and in turn noradrenaline direct to the brain, without significantly higher (or lower) than normal levels of these outside the brain, unlike taking carbidopa with just one of the precursors (so effects on nausea, temperature, blood pressure, gastrointestinal tract, etc. shouldn't be much of a problem?). I've taken 5-HTP before and it gave immediate antidepressant effects, not like SSRIs where I have to wait weeks for a mediocre effect that might not even happen. The problem was it seemed like it was too peripheral (nausea, racing heart), which wouldn't be a problem in the combo. Carbidopa should also boost 5-HTP significantly. I've heard of people taking L-dopa on its own (like in mucuna pruriens) and having a good effect on mood. Obviously dose would need to be chosen very carefully with all three components, as these are powerful drugs to play around with, and also you'd need to be aware of the many drugs it would interact badly with. Maybe memantine would be needed for tolerance, also.

I may be naive, but such a direct increase of serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline in the brain (without the apparent restrictions of reuptake inhibitors, MAOIs etc.) sounds kind of like it would be perfect for SA, depression, anhedonia, etc.. About 3-4 doses may be required in a day. I may be wrong, so comments please .


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

This combo could be interesting, youll have to try it and report back.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

lol, I'm sticking with my prescribed meds for the moment, but this is one of my backup plans. In fact I have quite a lot of backup plans .


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I think you're supposed to use a higher carbidopa dose if nausea is bad:



> The optimum daily dosage of SINEMET must be determined by careful titration in each patient. SINEMET tablets are available in a 1:4 ratio of carbidopa to levodopa (SINEMET 25-100) as well as 1:10 ratio (SINEMET 25-250 and SINEMET 10-100). Tablets of the two ratios may be given separately or combined as needed to provide the optimum dosage.
> Studies show that peripheral dopa decarboxylase is saturated by carbidopa at approximately 70 to 100 mg a day. Patients receiving less than this amount of carbidopa are more likely to experience nausea and vomiting.


Also, it says dose should be increased gradually. I do think even L-dopa + carbidopa alone has potent effects on brain dopamine & mood, since they use it for Parkinson's, and with 5-HTP the effect would be even better. I'm sure the nausea can be avoided once the right dose for both drugs is found. With enough carbidopa the nausea can be reduced to zero, since it directly reduces peripheral dopamine and therefore stimulation of the CTZ:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemoreceptor_trigger_zone

I'm still convinced I've found the miracle cure :b. Psychosis, mania, addiction, hypersexuality, etc. might be things to worry about though (but probably not if you use a low dose, and especially with the serotonin component & memantine).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Doesnt LDOPA cause uncontrollable movements?


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## mark555666 (May 1, 2008)

They did a test and it showed that 3 times 100 mg 5-htp a day showed the same benefits as anti depressants.

http://intelegen.com/nutrients/5htp_5hydroxytryptophan_vs.htm
http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/725/5_HTP_vs._Prozac_Jim_English.html



> Strikingly, some studies have shown better results using 200 to 300 mg of 5-HTP per day as an antidepressant than other studies using 2000 to 3,000 mg or more of tryptophan per day. (17)


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## mark555666 (May 1, 2008)

This is definitely interesting.

http://www.iherb.com/Search?kw=dopa 
http://www.iherb.com/Search?kw=5-htp
Carbidopa is easy to get too and it's not expensive.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Sinemet pills (carbidopa + L-dopa) pills would be best I think, I dunno if you can buy carbidopa alone. They have varying ratios of carbidopa:L-dopa, so you'd have to choose wisely to avoid nausea.



> Doesnt LDOPA cause uncontrollable movements?


I think that can happen with any potent dopaminergic, if the dose is too high. And what happens in Parkinson's patients may not apply to normal people, as they have a degenerating dopamine system.

If I was taking this combo, I'd probably take quite a lot of antioxidants (and perhaps very low dose selegiline, and memantine, if dose of all drugs was chosen carefully due to interactions), due to dopamine neurotoxicity (and also for tolerance):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12835121

Actually I'd probably take antioxidants with any regimen, but especially a dopaminergic one.

A healthy dose of vitamin B6 may boost these drugs, as it is part of the formation of serotonin & dopamine (which would be mainly happening in the brain).


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## Payn (Sep 15, 2008)

I'd like to try carbidopa + L-dopa, is it possible and safe when i am on 150mg of effexor rx ?


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

L-dopa + carbidopa (but not 5-HTP) would probably be fine if you were on an SSRI, but I'm not sure about Effexor as it has a weak noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor effect, and L-dopa is a precursor to noradrenaline in addition to dopamine. If you did attempt it, it'd be best to start with a very low dose of L-dopa to judge the effect. But in my opinion, the best way would be to take 5-HTP instead of the Effexor... Obviously this is somewhat experimental (though it is used widely in Parkinson's) so caution is advised whatever you do.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Here's a study which shows carbidopa decreases peripheral serotonin while increasing brain serotonin:



> J Hypertens. 1989 Apr;7(4):311-5.
> *5-Hydroxytryptophan and carbidopa in spontaneously hypertensive rats.*
> 
> Itskovitz HD, Werber JL, Sheridan AM, Brewer TF, Stier CT Jr.
> ...





> I took it with food to minimize the nausea if you were wondering.


Maybe the nausea was bad because you took it with food? One important thing I read was that L-dopa/5-HTP must be taken away from food, so they don't have competition to cross the blood brain barrier from other amino acids. Perhaps you would get more peripheral side effects and less mental effects if you took them with food. Also, as discussed above, the carbidopa would likely need to be at 70-100mg a day to prevent nausea.

This is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Α-methyldopa

It's an inhibitor of dopamine, noradrenaline & serotonin formation, but presumably also in the central nervous system (unlike carbidopa) as it has a number of psychological side effects, such as:


Depression and/or even suicidal ideation, as well as nightmares
Apathy and/or anhedonia, as well as dysphoria
Anxiety, especially of the social anxiety variant
Decreased alertness, awareness, and wakefulness
Impaired attention, focus, and concentration
Decreased desire, drive, and motivation
Fatigue or lethargy and/or malaise or lassitude
Sedation or drowsiness and/or somnolence or sleepiness
Agitation or restlessness
Cognitive and memory impairment
Derealization and/or depersonalization, as well as mild psychosis
Sexual dysfunction including impaired libido, desire, and drive
Many of those fit my current psychological problems. The L-dopa/5-HTP/carbidopa combo should be opposite to those effects in a lot of ways, due to boosting serotonin, noradrenaline & dopamine rather than decreasing them.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

This combo could be really interesting. Someone needs to try it


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## Ash09 (Apr 27, 2009)

How will taking precursors like L-dopa have any effect on neurotransmitter levels in a healthy person? Negative feedback will surely prevent excess synthesis of dopamine.


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## Payn (Sep 15, 2008)

euphoria said:


> L-dopa + carbidopa (but not 5-HTP) would probably be fine if you were on an SSRI, but I'm not sure about Effexor as it has a weak noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor effect, and L-dopa is a precursor to noradrenaline in addition to dopamine. If you did attempt it, it'd be best to start with a very low dose of L-dopa to judge the effect. But in my opinion, the best way would be to take 5-HTP instead of the Effexor... Obviously this is somewhat experimental (though it is used widely in Parkinson's) so caution is advised whatever you do.


What doses would you suggest of carbidopa and L-dopa ?


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Ash09 said:


> How will taking precursors like L-dopa have any effect on neurotransmitter levels in a healthy person? Negative feedback will surely prevent excess synthesis of dopamine.


I think tyrosine hydroxylase is the rate-limiting step in dopamine synthesis, and taking L-dopa bypasses that (in contrast to tyrosine and phenylalanine supplements, which are limited in effects). The fact that it works for Parkinson's indicates that it effectively increases dopamine levels. Also, I just read that tryptophan hydroxylase is the rate-limiting step in serotonin synthesis, and 5-HTP bypasses that.



Payn said:


> What doses would you suggest of carbidopa and L-dopa ?


I'm not sure, and I couldn't recommend trying this as I'm no doctor. But it would be best to start with a very low dose. You'd probably want one of the higher carbidopa dose pills to prevent nausea. I think you're supposed to slowly increase each dose to find which one is effective & prevents nausea.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Here's some info regarding the effects of L-dopa on mood:

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/levdophi.htm



> Two patients with Parkinson's disease repeatedly increased their levodopa dosage on their own to 1500-2000 mg/day to reach and sustain a state of euphoria, regardless of the fact that dosages of 400-800 mg/day were sufficient to suppress their parkinsonian symptoms. Both were markedly unwilling to consent to recommendations of dosage reductions, and they readily accepted adverse effects such as hyperkinesias, anorexia, and hallucinations to achieve the positive mental effects. Thus, both patients fulfilled the diagnostic criteria for substance dependence.


http://www.parkinsons-information-exchange-network-online.com/parkmail1/2003d/msg00532.html



> Researchers say that because levodopa works on the same reward center of the
> brain that has been associated with the addictive properties of other drugs like cocaine, nicotine, and alcohol, it's plausible that addiction to levodopa may develop.


Which demonstrates the powerful nature of L-dopa, in terms of both risks and potential therapeutic benefits for anhedonia, SA, depression, etc.. I think side effects such as dyskinesia and psychosis should only be a problem in high (recreational?) doses, similar to other stimulants like Ritalin and amphetamine. Memantine, low dose selegiline and antioxidants should counter the problems of physical dependence and neurotoxicity, but probably not psychological addiction. Makes me think they'll eventually control L-dopa like everything else that can help anhedonia. *sigh*


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

I took half of a 25/100 Sinemet pill, along with 25mg Agomelatine. The combo Destroyed my Social Anxiety....I wasn't anxious, I wasn't twitching, I could sit still and just enjoy myself (this was last summer, at the time, I was on a speedboat with 4 people Id never met before), and it was Much easier to have normal conversations. The effects weakly resembled some kind of Stimulant or other Dopamine-enhancing med, I was less anxious, but had more energy and wanted to go swimming. 

Of course, the Agomelatine contributed to the positive effects. A couple days later, i took another half of a 25/100 Sinemet dose, without agomelatine. Similar effects, however, I became slightly more anxious, OCD got worse, but definetly still some weak yay-dopamine effects (increased concentration, increased enjoyment of random activities, ect.). Short-lived effects tho, only 3 or 4 hours at most, it seemed. The next day, i felt really stupid and more depressed, felt like a hangover/DXM hangover or something of the like. I repeated this whole process another time, same thing, short lived good effects, reduction in appetite, minor increased anxiety/twitching (more OCD-related than anxiety). 

By itself, Sinemet would be helpful, but ya , ...lol, the obvious stuff. With 5-HTP tho, it might actually work. It would be nice, to be able to extend the effects of the Sinemet though....COMT inhibitor? EGCG seems to strongly inhibit COMT, and Isnt it an Antioxidant also?


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> Of course, the Agomelatine contributed to the positive effects. A couple days later, i took another half of a 25/100 Sinemet dose, without agomelatine. Similar effects, however, I became slightly more anxious, OCD got worse, but definetly still some weak yay-dopamine effects (increased concentration, increased enjoyment of random activities, ect.). Short-lived effects tho, only 3 or 4 hours at most, it seemed. The next day, i felt really stupid and more depressed, felt like a hangover/DXM hangover or something of the like. I repeated this whole process another time, same thing, short lived good effects, reduction in appetite, minor increased anxiety/twitching (more OCD-related than anxiety).


It'd be stronger with a higher dose, and 5-HTP should make it a lot better (less anxiety, OCD, etc.). Antioxidants, low dose selegiline and memantine would probably prevent the hangover. It could be related to dopamine neurotoxicity, which antioxidants prevent.



> It would be nice, to be able to extend the effects of the Sinemet though....COMT inhibitor? EGCG seems to strongly inhibit COMT, and Isnt it an Antioxidant also?


I think with 3-5 doses a day it'd be fine on its own, but yeah COMT inhibitors and selegiline are used in Parkinson's to boost the effects. Could be a dangerous combo if not dosed carefully though. I'm not sure they'd boost the duration much as dopamine itself has a very short half life (~2 minutes), I think the L-dopa half life is what matters.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> So who's gonna try this? crayzyMed? xD


I may try this stuff to augment my other stuff in the future as monoamine depletion may become an issue.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

If you do try it with your other meds, be very careful with dose...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> I never tried l-dopa for general anhedonia. I don't usually feel anhedonic, thank god, but when I do caffeine fixes it up for me.
> 
> For the past 2 days I've been feeling severely anhedonic. I lost interest in games, music, and physical activity is mentally painful. Caffeine couldn't fix this one. It's like my pleasure system is depleted of dopamine.
> 
> I have 3 Sinemet pills (250 l-dopa / 25 carbidopa). I'm going to take one with another cup of coffee now. I'd rather feel nauseous and happy than feeling this way. Will update.


Interesting, would like to see how it would work for you!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> If you do try it with your other meds, be very careful with dose...


Will do


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> What's wrong with me... :cry
> 
> My heart goes out to anyone who feels like this daily.


Why? How do you feel?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Thats wierd, it should make everything more rewarding, i wonder hows that possible.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I tought you got more reward at first and after that anhedonic.

Because i dont understand how you can get both more reward and anhedonia? Anhedonia=zero reward.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> I have 3 Sinemet pills (250 l-dopa / 25 carbidopa). I'm going to take one with another cup of coffee now. I'd rather feel nauseous and happy than feeling this way. Will update.


Those are very high strength L-dopa without much carbidopa. Their ratio of L-dopa to carbidopa is 10:1, another type of Sinemet has a ratio of 4:1. So your type of pill will have more than double the amount of nausea of the 100/25 ones. I think the dopamine-forming enzyme is fully inhibited at 70-100mg carbidopa a day, so I doubt you'd get much, if any, nausea with sufficient carbidopa. Also, I think the effect builds with successive doses. I'd definitely go with 100/25 pills, it would make it better all round (more dopamine in brain + less peripherally).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> Oh I apologize for the misunderstanding. It's my fault.
> 
> Let me rephrase:
> l-dopa + caffeine alleviated my anhedonia and made me find things rewarding again. However, it's no where near my normal pleasure response.


Oh i see, so its a positieve experience overall, i tought the ldopa induced anhedonia.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> I took another pill some 30 minutes ago and I'm getting more intense pleasure response now. I may have judged it too soon.


How does it affect your SA?


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

L-dopa would increase NE as well as DA, so there will probably be anxiety. With 5-HTP that shouldn't be a problem.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I think we are onto something with this combo, very interesting man! Thx for trying it out.

I think this stuff in combination with memantine would be potent long lasting solution.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I knew it .


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## Ash09 (Apr 27, 2009)

euphoria said:


> I think tyrosine hydroxylase is the rate-limiting step in dopamine synthesis, and taking L-dopa bypasses that (in contrast to tyrosine and phenylalanine supplements, which are limited in effects). The fact that it works for Parkinson's indicates that it effectively increases dopamine levels. Also, I just read that tryptophan hydroxylase is the rate-limiting step in serotonin synthesis, and 5-HTP bypasses that.


There's also the issue of MAO breaking down the excess dopamine however, phenethylamine for example crosses the blood brain barrier but unless your taking an MAOI it just gets broken down without having any effect.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm trying this as soon as possible.


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## n1kkuh (Jul 11, 2008)

why not throw in something gaba related for ****s and giggles? Theanine or ashwagandha?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

That may smooth things out, pharmagaba is a gaba form that passes the blood brain barrier and would really make this combo complete lol.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Ash09 said:


> There's also the issue of MAO breaking down the excess dopamine however, phenethylamine for example crosses the blood brain barrier but unless your taking an MAOI it just gets broken down without having any effect.


Dopamine & serotonin have very short half lives; MAO (and other enzymes) break them down quickly. The thing that makes it last the L-dopa/5-HTP, which lasts longer and continuously creates DA and 5-HT.



Guide 4 Dummies said:


> Hell ya! I bet a combination of Memantine + Levodopa + Carbidopa + 1.25 mg Selegiline + 5-HTP + Antioxidants would not only shatter social anxiety disorder to pieces, but also eliminate any trace of anhedonia and depression (and OCD?) while preventing dopamine neurotoxicity, tolerance, and act as a protection for the dopamine system. (i.e. preventing Parkinson's which I read somewhere that we are more likely to develop it).


Sounds like a perfect mix, as long as you use sufficient carbidopa. Plus you could use lower L-dopa doses due to selegiline.



n1kkuh said:


> why not throw in something gaba related for ****s and giggles? Theanine or ashwagandha?


Perhaps, but I think the 5-HTP would take care of anxiety in a better way than GABAergics.



Guide 4 Dummies said:


> More than 5 hours have passed and still feeling nauseous. :|


As long as you maintain a constant high dose of carbidopa, I don't think any nausea would happen as very little dopamine would be able to form peripherally. But if you miss a dose, maybe you'd get extra nausea as the buildup of peripheral L-dopa would be able to form dopamine.


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## Ash09 (Apr 27, 2009)

euphoria said:


> Dopamine & serotonin have very short half lives; MAO (and other enzymes) break them down quickly. The thing that makes it last the L-dopa/5-HTP, which lasts longer and continuously creates DA and 5-HT.


Even so I'm not convinced it would be enough to have any perceivable effects, AAAD will also limit the rate of dopamine and serotonin synthesis when taking levodopa and 5-htp.


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## No Surprises (Nov 1, 2009)

Given all the potential issues and side effects of L-DOPA administration -- even when combined with carbidopa -- I just don't see how it could possibly be worth it. Amphetamines seem like a better choice in almost every regard.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

No Surprises said:


> Given all the potential issues and side effects of L-DOPA administration -- even when combined with carbidopa -- I just don't see how it could possibly be worth it. Amphetamines seem like a better choice in almost every regard.


What issues and side effects would there be, different to amphetamine?


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## No Surprises (Nov 1, 2009)

euphoria said:


> What issues and side effects would there be, different to amphetamine?


Well, for starters:



> Side effects may include:
> Confusion, hallucinations, nausea, uncontrollable twitching or jerking
> 
> [...]
> ...


Source: http://www.drugs.com/pdr/carbidopa-levodopa.html


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

No Surprises said:


> Confusion, hallucinations, nausea, uncontrollable twitching or jerking


Those can happen with most dopaminergic drugs, they shouldn't be much of a problem unless high doses are used.



> Muscle rigidity, high temperature, rapid heartbeat or breathing, sweating, blood pressure changes, and mental changes may occur when Sinemet CR is reduced suddenly or discontinued. If you stop taking Carbidopa, Levodopa abruptly, your doctor should monitor your condition carefully.


Those are symptoms of neuroleptic malignant syndrome, and can happen from dopamine blocking antipsychotics. Memantine would prevent tachyphylaxis to the high level of dopamine, so upon withdrawal you should return to normal dopaminergic function, without risk of NMS like symptoms.


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## No Surprises (Nov 1, 2009)

To be fair, you do sound like you've done some reading on the matter. If you want to try it, that's your prerogative. 

Personally, I wouldn't be willing to test it out long-term. A couple of doses, sure. But I'm afraid taking L-DOPA long-term could be problematic, and I'd hate to make a lab rat of myself.


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## Payn (Sep 15, 2008)

Do you think it can be a long term solution or only be used recreationally ?

If I wanted to try this, so I need only Carbidoba/Levodopa product like Sinemet (Carbidopa/Levodopa) - 25mg/100mg ?
*
*


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Payn said:


> Do you think it can be a long term solution or only be used recreationally ?


With memantine + antioxidants, I think it could be a long term solution if the studies on NMDA antagonism and tolerance are correct. Without memantine & antioxidants, I think the desirable effects would only be transient. That's not to say it would be without other problems, such as mania, psychosis, hyperthermia, cognitive impairment, dyskinesia, anorexia, jaw clenching, psychological addiction, etc. (i.e. the problems inherent in elevating dopamine and serotonin). But the side effects shouldn't be too bad at therapeutic doses. As for recreational use, that isn't really discussed or tolerated on this forum, and would likely make the side effects worse.



> If I wanted to try this, so I need only Carbidoba/Levodopa product like Sinemet (Carbidopa/Levodopa) - 25mg/100mg ?


I couldn't recommend taking any self prescribed drugs, but yes that seems to be the best type of Sinemet to take. CR pills might be more practical than instant release.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

When I say antioxidants, I mean you'd need to get full coverage of antioxidants throughout the day, many antioxidants have too short half lives to be dosed once a day for this purpose. N-acetyl-cysteine has a reasonable half life, but shouldn't be dosed too high.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

ALA sustain release by jarrow is the best candidate.
NAC raises glutamate it agonizes mglur2 receptors that way wich decrease glutamate firing, but it works in a differend way then memantine and may interfere.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Whats a good dosage for 5-HTP + Levodopa + Carbidopa?
Right now I am at 150mg 5-HTP ( 50mg 3 times a day) and I think its sifficient, so I ll stick with this.

About carbidopa and levidopa, I am thinking 25mg carbidopa 100mg levidopa 3 times a day would be enough. Maybe take it up to 4 times a day if I am not satisfied with the results.

I ll also think about introducing memantine later on. How much would be a recomended dose of memantine in the above situation?

Also, I ve read that its recommended to take Vitamins B6 and B12 and folic acid with loevodopa to prevent homocystinemia.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

karoloydi said:


> Whats a good dosage for 5-HTP + Levodopa + Carbidopa?
> Right now I am at 150mg 5-HTP ( 50mg 3 times a day) and I think its sifficient, so I ll stick with this.


Carbidopa may boost the effect of 5-HTP considerably, so be careful with dose. It would be best to start very low and increase slowly to the optimum dose.



> Also, I ve read that its recommended to take Vitamins B6 and B12 and folic acid with loevodopa to prevent homocystinemia.


Yes, I would take a multivitamin with any regimen.

Do you plan to take antioxidants? Some dopamine metabolites are neurotoxic and would be increased by L-dopa.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

euphoria said:


> Carbidopa may boost the effect of 5-HTP considerably, so be careful with dose. It would be best to start very low and increase slowly to the optimum dose.


I ll try 50mg 5-HTP 2 times a day then and see how I feel.



> Do you plan to take antioxidants? Some dopamine metabolites are neurotoxic and would be increased by L-dopa.


What would you recommend? N-acetyl-cysteine? Or EGCG from greet tea extract?


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

I am also thinking of giving meds a rest one day a week to give my brain a rest.
Or maybe I should stop 5-HTP, carbidopa levodopa once a week but keep taking memantine and atioxidants?
Monday-Friday they would help me function at work. Saturday they would help me socialise better. Sunday I am usually staying at home, so I can be drug free those days.
What do you think?


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

My main concern is, what if I was presidposed to develop Parkinsons later in life? And this is not very unlikely, concidering that people with social anxiety have more chances of getting Parkinsons than normal people.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

karoloydi said:


> I ll try 50mg 5-HTP 2 times a day then and see how I feel.
> 
> What would you recommend? N-acetyl-cysteine? Or EGCG from greet tea extract?


EGCG does not cross the blood brain barrier.
http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=32229

And NAC increases glutamate and may interfere with memantine, antioxidants like ALA are the best option.

Maybe "sodzyme" wich raises the body's antioxidant system or other rare antioxidant things that are discussed on the imminst forum.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

karoloydi said:


> My main concern is, what if I was presidposed to develop Parkinsons later in life? And this is not very unlikely, concidering that people with social anxiety have more chances of getting Parkinsons than normal people.


Yes, we are all at a bigger risk to develop parkinson, therefor taking protective measure's earlier in life is a good idea for all of us.
I was thinking about deprenyl, altough i dont know wheter it would really protect us, i'l need to do some research on it.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> (Sorry about posting while being drunk. I refined the post)
> 
> Would taking Melatonin every 1 hour during the effect of Levodopa/Carbidopa solve the problem?
> 
> I'm going to use a dopamine agonist like Pramipexole instead of L-dopa. It agonizes the receptors without raising dopamine level in the first place.


I'm not sure melatonin would be strong enough, I would take a variety of different antioxidants dosed throughout the day. Regardless of if NAC increases glutamate, it is a good antioxidant to take, even if in low doses. Acetylcarnitine, vitamin C and alpha lipoic acid are also good.



karoloydi said:


> I am also thinking of giving meds a rest one day a week to give my brain a rest.
> Or maybe I should stop 5-HTP, carbidopa levodopa once a week but keep taking memantine and atioxidants?
> Monday-Friday they would help me function at work. Saturday they would help me socialise better. Sunday I am usually staying at home, so I can be drug free those days.
> What do you think?


Memantine & antioxidants should be taken continuously, I guess you could take breaks from the 5-HTP/carbidopa/L-dopa though.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> EGCG does not cross the blood brain barrier.
> http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=32229


So Id have to drink 20-30 cups of Green Tea to get positive effects....i could do that, its just Green Tea always makes me nauseated for some reason, I looked it up and something in Green Tea activates or releases CCK, which i guess would further explain its possible weight loss potential, whenever I drink it food doesnt look very good.

Thats scary, EGCG inhibiting DDC, if it got into the brain maybe that wouldNT be so good after all lolol


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I heard drinking excess tea isn't good for you...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah, that much green tea causes liver damage.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

I ve found some positive studies on levodopa.
If you are too lazy to read, basically it says that Evidence supporting a toxic action of levodopa or DA on dopaminergic neurons arises largely from in vitro, or test-tube studies. And a large volume of studies on living organisms have actually showed the opposite. That it protects neurons from Cell Death.

Heres the thread I found that information from:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3000921&highlight=l-dopa

But bear in mind that this information has been supplied by a company selling L-Dopa. And I havent cross referenced this. So, apply your judgement.
And the same person said:


> If you have a neurological disorders that reduces your ability to regulate Dopamine (which in excess is not ideal but several people have low levels and respond very well to *L-DOPA*) you should probably avoid it.


So Here are the studies:


> *L-Dopa* to the rescue
> 
> Many studies have actually found *L-dopa* to have a ?neurotrophic?, or health-promoting effect on DA neurons. Thus Murer and colleagues report: ?Our results clearly indicate the absence of toxicity of a pharmacologically effective chronic levodopa treatment on remaining dopaminergic neurons of rats with moderate and severe 6-OHDA-induced lesions. In addition, they clearly suggest that chronic levodopa administration induced a partial recovery of remaining dopaminergic neurons in moderately lesioned rats.? (14). Mena et al cultured DA neurons with cortical astrocytes (glial cells), then fed them *L-dopa*. ?This study demonstrates that *L-dopa* has neurotrophic effects on DA neurons, stimulates elaboration of neuritis, and protects DA neurons from cell death.? (17). Han and colleagues found that giving *L-dopa* or rat mesencephalon (DA neurons) cultures increased levels of the critical antioxidant glutathione. They note: ?When mixed mesencephalic cultures were exposed to strong oxidant stress?.a loss of viability was seen. Cultures pre-treated with *L-dopa*?.were protected from loss of viability.? (20). Uitti and co-workers studies survival data for all Olmsted county PD patients seen at the Mayo Clinic from 1964 to 1978. 61% of the 179 patients were levodopa-treated. They found that the treatment significantly lengthened life of PD patients compared to those not receiving the drug. ?We believe our study provides compelling evidence in support of decreased mortality associated with the treatment in PD patients?.Levodopa therapy improved survival unconditionally, in that it did not require early institution. We found no evidence for increased mortality in patients treated with levodopa, as one might expect hypothetically, on the basis of levodopa-related oxidative stress mechanisms.? (21).
> 
> ...


Edit:I found the original source of this article:
http://www.antiaging-systems.com/extract/l-dopa.htm


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Found another research that makes the combination of 5-HTP / Levodopa ever more sence.
It says that if you administer 5-HTP you ll need to administer levodopa and vise versa. Thats because the dopamine precursors tyrosine or levodopa deplete of serotonin. Similarly the serotonin precursors 5-HTP or tryptophan deplete dopamine. With the Dopamine Serotonin system if either becomes depleted enough both systems will no longer work.



> The Monoamine Oxidase (MAO) enzyme metabolize serotonin and the catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine). The COMT metabolizes dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine as well. The implications are profound. The levels of these two enzyme systems are not static; they fluctuate in response to changing neurotransmitter levels. When *Dopamine Serotonin* or norepinephrine levels are increased with administration of 5-HTP, tyrosine or levodopa, enzymatic activity also increases.
> Administration of levodopa
> , tyrosine, tryptophan, and 5-HTP, increases MAO and COMT activity due to the increased dopamine or serotonin levels. When improperly balanced levodopa
> is administered, both dopamine and serotonin will be subjected to increased metabolism as MAO enzyme increases in response to increased dopamine. Since serotonin has not experienced an increase in synthesis depletion occurs. The same is true with 5-HTP administered without properly balanced dopamine precursors, metabolism depletes dopamine. The bottom line is that the administration of unopposed precursors will deplete the other system as a result of the increased metabolism of MAO and COMT. The *Dopamine Serotonin* balance must be respected.


http://www.neuroassist.com/dopamine-serotonin.htm


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Got a job interview on Friday! Hope I canget the Sinemet by Friday so that I can test.
This would be the ultimate test. I also have to do a presentation  during the interview.
Last few interviews I just answered yes and no to all the questions while sweating and playing with my hair nervously throughout my whole interview. There was even one interview I started shaking out of nerves cause the person interviewing me was quite of a sadist and took advantage of my condition.
I ll just start with 12.5mg carbidopa 50mg levodopa (25/100 Sinemet cut in half) with 50mg of 5-HTP.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Interesting, keep us updated!


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Even if I dont get the pills its ok. It will be the control experiment.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Differential effects of NMDA and non-NMDA antagonists on the activity of aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase activity in the nigrostriatal dopamine pathway of the rat.
These experiments indicate that blocking the NMDA receptor-channel (and to a lesser extent the glycine site) or stimulating alpha2-adrenoceptors, profoundly increases AADC activity, more especially in the SN than CS. By contrast, inhibiting the NMDA glutamate recognition or polyamine sites, AMPA or muscarinic receptors is without effect on AADC in either brain region. The ability of amantadine and memantine to potentiate the antiparkinsonian actions of l-DOPA in the clinic, may be due to facilitated decarboxylation of l-DOPA by the brain.

So memantine would also increase the conversion of LDOPA to dopamine and 5HTP to serotonin.
Highly synergetic combo.


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## No Surprises (Nov 1, 2009)

karoloydi said:


> Got a job interview on Friday! Hope I canget the Sinemet by Friday so that I can test.
> This would be the ultimate test. I also have to do a presentation  during the interview.
> Last few interviews I just answered yes and no to all the questions while sweating and playing with my hair nervously throughout my whole interview. There was even one interview I started shaking out of nerves cause the person interviewing me was quite of a sadist and took advantage of my condition.
> I ll just start with 12.5mg carbidopa 50mg levodopa (25/100 Sinemet cut in half) with 50mg of 5-HTP.


You're only planning to take a small dose, so it likely won't be problematic, but I should warn you that it would be a bit risky to take a drug like Sinemet for the first time prior to a presentation scenario. If you think anxiety might hamper your performance, just imagine how tough it'll be if your muscles begin to twitch and you become nauseous.

Go with safe drugs like beta blockers and benzos.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

You should try any new drug or combo at home first when you have no obligations.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

Whats with all the threads that sound like infomercials on this forum? 

I mean, it's not a big deal or anything but its just kind of creepy in a sense.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

KurtG85 said:


> Whats with all the threads that sound like infomercials on this forum?
> 
> I mean, it's not a big deal or anything but its just kind of creepy in a sense.


Creepy? Making potential usefull treatments known is far from creepy, it may lead to more ppl finding a cure.
I may be a bit too excited about memantine, i'l slow down then.


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## NervousInDublin (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm just after finishing two tubs of this :

http://www.iherb.com/Best-5-HTP-60-Veggie-Caps/1?at=0

I noticed a mild calming effect and I know there are studies saying 5htp can be a good for depressing as suc script drugs, if I ever go on scripts I have to say I be a bit disappointed if they were this weak. I took 300mg a day but coming near the end of my stock I took 400mg and 500mg a little. Bit of an improvment of 300mg but I don't know if 500mg is sustainable.

doctors best is not a verifed brand by consumlabs, but i think it rates so well cus loads and loads more poeple buy it than it nearest neighrbour, the NOW foods 5htp cus it is nearly a 10$ cheaper. I'm going to try now foods 5htp, theres also a now food 5htp with l-tyronsine.

The formula posted by the OP might work, as all those ingredients might work better in synergy.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Yeah, you'd get a much better effect with the use of carbidopa vs. 5-HTP/L-dopa alone. Well, the effect would be similar but much stronger and with a lot less peripheral effects (which were the limiting factor when I took 5-HTP).


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Differential effects of NMDA and non-NMDA antagonists on the activity of aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase activity in the nigrostriatal dopamine pathway of the rat.
> These experiments indicate that blocking the NMDA receptor-channel (and to a lesser extent the glycine site) or stimulating alpha2-adrenoceptors, profoundly increases AADC activity, more especially in the SN than CS. By contrast, inhibiting the NMDA glutamate recognition or polyamine sites, AMPA or muscarinic receptors is without effect on AADC in either brain region. The ability of amantadine and memantine to potentiate the antiparkinsonian actions of l-DOPA in the clinic, may be due to facilitated decarboxylation of l-DOPA by the brain.
> 
> So memantine would also increase the conversion of LDOPA to dopamine and 5HTP to serotonin.
> Highly synergetic combo.


I ll give memantine a try later on. First I ll test how I feel with sinemet -5htp alone. Then after a month I ll introduce memantine and test again for changes.
Maybe I ll test memantine - 5htp combo without simenet. That would make aninteresting combo as well. Can I get carbidopa alone? or can I only get it with sinemet?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

karoloydi said:


> I ll give memantine a try later on. First I ll test how I feel with sinemet -5htp alone. Then after a month I ll introduce memantine and test again for changes.
> Maybe I ll test memantine - 5htp combo without simenet. That would make aninteresting combo as well. Can I get carbidopa alone? or can I only get it with sinemet?


Not sure, why would you want cardidopa alone? that would produce some nasty side effects.
EDIT: nvm, tought you wanted LDOPA on its own, euhm got no idea wheter you can get cardidopa on its own.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

I ve been researching about supplements and anti oxidants to take for people with parkinsonsdesease and the following came up:

http://www.raysahelian.com/parkinson.html



> Mucuna Pruriens is an herb to seriously consider for Parkinson's disease. Mucuna pruriens has been successfully used in India for centuries. Mucuna may work as an antioxidant and also as a dopamine provider. We know little about the ideal dosage of mucuna to treat Parkinson's disease. We have interesting anecdotes at the bottom of the page regarding the use of mucuna pruriens by individuals with Parkinson's disease.
> 
> R-Alpha Lipoic Acid, 10 to 50 mg a few times a week in the morning with breakfast. R-Lipoic acid is a powerful antioxidant and helps generate glutathione. Alpha lipoic acid may be used in combination with Acetyl-l-Carnitine as a treatment for Parkinson's disease. The proper dosage of the combination of alpha lipoic acid and acety l carnitine as a treatment for Parkinson's disease remains to be determined, but it may be a good idea to start at a low dosage of 30 mg of R ALA and less than 300 mg of acetyl l carnitine for a few days before considering taking higher amounts. The interaction of these supplements with medications currently used for Parkinson's disease is not clear, nor is their interaction with mucuna pruriens and other natural herbs and supplements.
> Combined R-alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine exerts efficient preventative effects in a cellular model of Parkinson's disease.
> ...


I think Alpha Lipoic Acid, Melatonine, Acety L Carnitine, N-Acetyl-Cysteine and CoQ10 are the 5 best ones. From what it says here both Alpha Lipoic Acid and NAC do the same job, to produce glutathione, so just Alpha Lipoic Acid is enough. And 5-HTP helps in producing melatonine,so thats not needed if you take 5-HTP. 
So a combination of Multivitamins, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Acetyl Carnitine and and CoQ10 would be the best. 
Also folic acid as I mentioned on my precious post to prevent Hyperhomocysteinemia.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

****!
It looks like I am mildly allergic to dopamine! LOL
I have a condition G6PD enzyme deficiency that causes hemolytic anemia if I take some foods or medicine. People with G6PD enzyme deficiency have mild allergy to l-dopa.
It looks like there could be a link to my enzyme deficiency and my social anxiety. Its on the list here of drugs I should avoid.
http://www.g6pd.org/favism/english/index.mvc?pgid=avoid

This condition is also called favism cause of the allergy to fava beans. It says the cause for this be may be related to differences in the enzymatic system that converts L-DOPA to DOPA-quinone.
http://www.medicinenet.com/g6pd_deficiency/glossary.htm

It also looks like its related to my very pale skin color.
Cause DOPA-quinone is needed to create melanin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin

But it also lists as low risk drugs paracetamol, Vitamin C & Vitamin K, which I am already takingwith no side effects. 
I ll do some more reading!

Edit: I also found a patent for treating Parkinsons desease with melanin:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5210076.html

Looks like there is a relation.

At least theres something positive. G6PD deficiency protects from Malaria

Edit 2: It looks like I shouldnt take L Dopa. This guy with favism got hemolytic anemia from prolonged use of l dopa.


> A 67 year-old white man developed Coombs test-positive hemolytic anemia
> secondary to levodopa therapy for Parkinson disease. The initial episode
> of anemia occurred after 11 months and 660 gm of drug exposure. A warm
> autoantibody directed against the Rh locus was found in the patients
> ...


It looks like it whatever is causing the allergic reactions builds up in the body over time.

I ll give memantine a try and just maybe take l dopa for job interviews.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

karoloydi said:


> may be related to differences in the enzymatic system that converts L-DOPA to DOPA-quinone.
> http://www.medicinenet.com/g6pd_deficiency/glossary.htm


Isn't that a neurotoxic metabolite of L-dopa?

You could take memantine and pramipexole for dopamine, if L-dopa doesn't agree with your body.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

euphoria said:


> Isn't that a neurotoxic metabolite of L-dopa?
> 
> You could take memantine and pramipexole for dopamine, if L-dopa doesn't agree with your body.


After doing some research I confirmed my assumption that there is a link between my paleness and my low dopamine and I ve read that paleness is common for people with my condition.

Melanin needs tyrosine to be made. Tyrosine is catalysed by an enzyme called tyrosinase and becomes levodopa which becomes dopaquinone. Dopaquinone may become eumelanin, or phaeomelanin.
Tyrosine is converted to levodopa by the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase which becomes dopamine. In addition, in the adrenal medulla, tyrosine is converted into the catecholamine hormones norepinephrine.

So my problem is almost certainly tyrosine or levodopa deficiency (more likely levodopa deficiency). But I need to investigate further why my body is trying so hard to keep levodopa levels so low. Maybe its for my own protection to avoid hemolytic anemia. Hemolytic anemia is caused by low glutahione in my red blood cells, which allows them to become oxidated easily by certain substances and die at a faster rate than my body can replace.

Does memantine or pramipexole increase tyrosine or levodopa levels?
Does anyone have any suggestions on what drugs I could try?

Edit: I found a relation netween high glutathione in the blood interacting with L Dopa:


> Glutathione competitively inhibits melanin synthesis in the reaction of tyrosinase and L-DOPA by interrupting L-DOPA's ability to bind to tyrosinase during melanin synthesis. The inhibition of melanin synthesis was reversed by increasing the concentration of L-DOPA, but not by increasing tyrosinase. Although the synthesized melanin was aggregated within 1 h, the aggregation was inhibited by the addition of glutathione. These results indicate that glutathione inhibits the synthesis and agglutination of melanin by interrupting the function of L-DOPA


Could high glutathione in my blood be the cause of my low dopamine? Maybe my body is producing excess glutathione in order to keep the glutathione in my red blood cells as high as possible (because people with my condition have naturally low glutathione in red blood cells).
Maybe excess glutathione makes it difficult for my body to produce melanin and this causes it to use more l-dopa than normal to create melanin. This means that less l-dopa is available to create dopamine in my brain.

Edit2: I just found something contradicting: That Intravenous glutathione injections have been shown to have very good results in Parkinsons. I thought that glutathione doesnt cross the blood brain barrier.

Edit 3: I found another link between melanin and dopamine. In Parkinson's there is decreased neuromelanin in the substantia ***** as consequence of specific dropping out of dopaminergic pigmented neurons. This results in diminished dopamine synthesis.

Edit 4: It says here that l-dopa doesnt oxidise red blood cells, and its most probable that its L-Dopas transformation to dopaquinone that oxidises glutathione in red blood cells.
http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=jg4l264r6g1u31l3&size=largest

Those are just random thoughts, but I d like your input in this. Maybe I am on to something.


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## Payn (Sep 15, 2008)

I'd like to try this combo, if someone know where can i purchase Memantine and Sinemet or Pramipexole(in Europe), please contact me via PM. Thanks.


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## sberkley (Jan 28, 2010)

has anyone taken zoloft ?


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Finally my sinemet arrived!
Taken 12.5mg carbidopa + 50mg levidopa (25/100 sinemet cut in half) + 50mg 5-HTP.
It took about 1 hour to start acting. After 1 hour I started having a sense of calmness. I could take deep breaths that were satisfying. The calmness resembled the sense of calmness I felt with MDMA, but without the empathy/love/friendliness/appreciation of life aspect of it. Just the calmness. I was at home with my family, but it felt like if I was out with people I didnt know, I wouldnt feel any anxiety.
I was expecting to become more talkative. But instead I think it was the opposite. It made me feel lazy and heavy. So I wasnt really in a mood to talk. A bit similar to cannabis high.
For some reason,I didnt feel like carbidopa enhenced the effeccts of 5-HTP. If anything, it reduced it. I wasnt feeling too much affectionate.
But I felt that it enhanced my sexual mood.
After 5 hours of taking it I went for my afternoon sleep. I felt like it was a bit harder for me to sleep than normal, but I fell asleep fairly quickly.
Apart for the slight hang over when I woke up, I didnt have any side effects at all, but the dosage was quite small.
When I woke up I felt slightly burnt out. I took some 5-HTP after I woke up and a couple of hours later I am starting to feel normal again. It looks like 5-HTP helps. I think memantine would protect you from this completely.
Next time I ll try and take the pills on an empty stomach. Maybe thats why I didnt feel so much of an effect from 5-HTP.
Also, I think I need a stimulant with this combo. Something like caffeine would be good. Cause I was feeling quite heavy. Maybe its cause its the first time I tried it, but I dont think so. 
Overall it was a pleasant experience. But I dont think it would help me on an interview scenario unless I found a way to bump up my energy a bit.

Due to my condition, I ll have to limit this to once or twice a week and keep the dosage low. I ll keep you updated. Awaiting for my memantine to arrive.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm thinking that your 5HTP dose was too high and your LDOPA dose too low, try working with differend ratio's.
Probably not as calm, but more active and prosocial.

Or just too low doses of both is another possibility.

Anyway good to hear that it did have some positive effects, thx for posting your experience!


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I'm thinking that your 5HTP dose was too high and your LDOPA dose too low, try working with differend ratio's.
> Probably not as calm, but more active and prosocial.
> 
> Or just too low doses of both is another possibility.
> ...


So you think the calmness came from 5-HTP? It could be, but I wasnt having that loving/caring feeling I usually have with 5-HTP. It felt different. Its 80% identical to when I took opium. Opium increases dopamine, isnt it?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

karoloydi said:


> So you think the calmness came from 5-HTP? It could be, but I wasnt having that loving/caring feeling I usually have with 5-HTP. It felt different. Its more like when I took opium.


The ldopa probably changed the nature of the 5HTP feeling, i would have expected the feeling from 5HTP to change with LDOPA, however with optimal ratio's the combo should be prosocial.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> The ldopa probably changed the nature of the 5HTP feeling, i would have expected the feeling from 5HTP to change with LDOPA, however with optimal ratio's the combo should be prosocial.


I ll try 25/100 sinemet on Saturday and see what happens. I ll be with people other than my family, so it will be a good test. If it doesnt help I try some coffee with it. Are there any other stimulants other than coffee you would suggest? I am not really keen on caffeine. It makes me feel shaky and messes up my appetite and I get ungry easilly.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Provigil


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Be careful combining anything with it, especially stimulants, start with a low dose if you do.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Does anyone know whats the recommended dose for the following:

Alpha Lipoic Acid
Acetyl Carnitine
CoQ10 
Grapeseed Extract
NAC

Onthe net there the dosage is really varied for them.

Alpha Lipoic Acid: 20mg to 300mg reccomended dose
CoQ10: 30mg to 300mg recommended
NAC: 250mg to 1000mg recommended.
NAC: 100mg to 500mg
Grapeseed Extract 50mg to 100mg

I found this one:
http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Antioxidants-30-Tablets_53519/
It has the following:
Microcrystalline Cellulose, Dicalcium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid, Grapeseed Extract, DL Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (from Soya), Modified Starch, Zinc Citrate, Maltodextrin, Anti-caking Agents (Magnesium Stearate, Silicon Dioxide), Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Citrus Bioflavonoids, Polydextrose, Colours (Titanium Dioxide, Iron Oxide), Sucrose, Maize Starch, Coenzyme Q10, Acacia Gum, Fractionated Coconut Oil, Lutein, Glycerides Of Fatty Acids, Retinyl Acetate, Antioxidants (Ascorbyl Palmitate, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, DL Alpha Tocopherol), Sodium Selenite, Maize Oil, Zeaxanthin.

But I dont know how many mg of each ingredient it has. Probably its quite low cause its dead cheap (£5 for 30 capsules). SO its good to know whats the recommended dose before I go to the pharmacy so that I can check


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

With higher doses the effect would probably change and get more powerful. You could experiment with different ratios of L-dopa to 5-HTP, and you would be able to tip it more towards introverted serenity, or outgoing confidence & hyperactivity, or a mix (I'm guessing the mix would be where the social effects would be best). The combo shouldn't be very sedating with a high enough L-dopa dose. I would always use a decent amount of 5-HTP in any dose, as it should prevent some of the addictive potential of L-dopa alone. Please keep us apprised of your experiences!


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

euphoria said:


> With higher doses the effect would probably change and get more powerful. You could experiment with different ratios of L-dopa to 5-HTP, and you would be able to tip it more towards introverted serenity, or outgoing confidence & hyperactivity, or a mix (I'm guessing the mix would be where the social effects would be best). The combo shouldn't be very sedating with a high enough L-dopa dose. I would always use a decent amount of 5-HTP in any dose, as it should prevent some of the addictive potential of L-dopa alone. Please keep us apprised of your experiences!


Tomorrow I ll try 25mg carbidopa 100mg levodopa without 5-HTP to set a baseline to see how it feels like with 5 HTP alone. 
Then on Saturday I ll add 5-HTP and see what the difference is.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Took a whole 100/25 sinemet today with 50mg 5-HTP.
You guyz were right. That was a big difference.
07:00 Took the sinemet/5-HTP
07:30 Started feeling sleepy.I think the 5-HTP started acting before the l-dopa producing melatonin.
08:00 I am feeling fully awake again. I can feel the L-Dopa acting. I am feeling slightly more social.
09:00 I am feeling more social and confident. Talked to my boss briefly. Didnt feel intimidated as I usually do. It was more like talking to a friend.
09:15 Left work. Had a brief conversation with some guy from work I never talked before on my way out. 
Walking increased the effect of the pills. I think the increased heart beat increased the blood flow and started sending more chemicals to the brain. Or walking released endorphins.
09:35 Feeling even more social and friendly. I find myself holding the door open for people and smiling at them. Helped someone find some proplus at the pharmacy.
10:00 I am on the train. The levodopa/5-HTP reached their peak. I am feeling really confident. Life seems like in focus. I have lots of energy. Feeling sexual desire higher than normal. Overall its something like a cocaine high.
11:00 Still in its peak. I find I am enjoying my food more than usually. Everything tastes so good. I am taking 50mg more 5-HTP
11:30 - 13:30. Watching a movie. Have more of a loving feeling from 5-HTP. I think 5-HTP helps increase the duration of the levodopa effect.
14:00 Going to sleep. Having conversation in bed with wife. 
I went to sleep fairly quickly. drugs didnt effect me.
I made sure I had extra sleep this time so that I wont feel wasted when I wake up like last time.
19:00 Woke Up. I feel like I still have lots of energy. None of the side effects I had last time. Maybe I ll feel them tomorrow. Took 50mg more 5-HTP. That made me feel even better. 
21:30 Writing reply to thread. Still have tons of energy. I dont have the buzz I had in the morning, but I feel even better than normal.

Overall it was an excellent experience. I had zero side effects so far. I ll let you know tomorrow for sure. Cant wait to test the combo with memantine!
On Saturday I ll try just sinemet without 5-HTP to see the difference.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Awesome!


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Nice.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Some Picamilon or phenibut would really make this combo complete as they raise GABA in the brain. I'l need to do some experimenting soon.


> Picamilon is able to cross the blood-brain barrier[5] and then is hydrolyzed into GABA and niacin. The released GABA in theory would activate GABA receptors potentially producing an anxiolytic response.[6] The second released component, niacin acts as a strong vasodilator,[7] which might be useful for the treatment of migraine headaches.[8][9]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Some Picamilon or phenibut would really make this combo complete as tehy raise GABA in the brain. I'l need to do some experimenting soon.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon


Let us know!

About my experiment yesterday, I am still feeling normal. No hangover. Energy is back to normal levels. Couldnt get too much sleep during the night cause some idiot kept waking me up. But I feel good.

It seems like it can be adictive though. I can feel a mild craving. From a scale of 1-10, if nicotine addiction craving is 10, this is a 1 or 2. I am already looking forward to Saturday when I am planning to take my next dose. But I managed to stop smoking, so it wont be a problem with me I think. Memantie should definately help with this.

I ve just ordered Alpha Lipoic Acid 300mg capsules, Acetyl L Carnitine 500mg capsules and CoQ10 120mg capsules. Man, I am taking too many pills.
Glucosamine chondroitin msm, omega 3 6 9,A-Z Multivitamins, Folic Acid, Finasteride (hair loss), 5-htp, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Acetyl L Carnitine, CoQ10, sinemet,memantine.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Tried again yesterday the same dosage as before. Was thinking to just take the sinemet without 5-HTP, but I decided that its best to try new things whenI am at home.Nit when I am out.
Took them on an empty stomach. BIG mistake. 1 hour later I went to eat. I had almost complete loss of apetite and felt slightly nauseous. I also staring having cold sweat. Forced myself to eat. After 30 minutes I started feeling well again. From what I ve noticed, for the first 4 hours after you ve had the pills you have no appetite. After that it comes back again after the pills have reached their peak.
Also, I found out why the pills were making me lazy before. I have naturally low blood pressure. When I take the pills my blood pressure falls a bit more. That makes me feel lazy. After I start walking my blood pressure starts getting higher and I feel better. I think I ll need to eat a bit more salt in my diet. Cause I never really add any extra salt in my food. 
Overall I felt really social, I was easilly talking with people I didnt know. What surpsised me about myself this time was that usually when I see people arguing/fighting I freeze and I dont know what to do. This time, when I saw two men arguing I was ready to jump off my chair and stop the fight if needed. I would never do such a thing before.
It looks like 5-HTP extends the duration of the effects of levodopa.
On my way back home I had a verbal diarrhea. I couldnt stop talking. :mum
Next day I didnt have any hangover. I was feeling normal.
Its a pretty good combo. Unfortunately due to my condition I cant take sinemet on a permanent basis. I ll see how "Guide For Dummies" does on pramipexole. If after a month he still feels the same good effects I think I ll substitute sinemet with pramipexole.


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## James Goodson (Mar 6, 2010)

You guys are extremely technical and precise about this - totally dazzling!

I hope you are working on "skills" aspect as well, because meds can only get you so far and you risk going back to your old ways if you don't put the efforts in getting rid of some of the worry, negative thinking and just general negativity!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

James Goodson said:


> You guys are extremely technical and precise about this - totally dazzling!
> 
> I hope you are working on "skills" aspect as well, because meds can only get you so far and you risk going back to your old ways if you don't put the efforts in getting rid of some of the worry, negative thinking and just general negativity!


Once the anxiety is gone, social skill's are learned quite rapidly.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

They called my back for a second interview this week!
This time the interview is with the big bosses! Figures of authority are my worst social anxiety nightmare!
I ll take my usual dosage and report back how it went.


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## Payn (Sep 15, 2008)

I am considering trying this combination. Is it possible to take all these antiparkinson meds(Sinemet, Memantine) and atioxidants, when i am taking 150 mg of venlafaxine with 100mg of Trazodone? If yes than what dosage would you suggest if I want to use these drugs with my current meds ? Are there any side effects ?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Payn said:


> I am considering trying this combination. Is it possible to take all these antiparkinson meds(Sinemet, Memantine) and atioxidants, when i am taking 150 mg of venlafaxine with 100mg of Trazodone? If yes than what dosage would you suggest if I want to use these drugs with my current meds ? Are there any side effects ?


I would titrate up slowly when you add sinmet to this combo, bit first add in memantine.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

I am having slight withdrawal symptoms again. Like mild nicotine withdrawal symptoms. If taken every day for long time this could be really addictive. 
When I get the memantine I ll see what the difference is.


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## Payn (Sep 15, 2008)

what type of Sinemet do you suggest for order :

Carbidopa / Levodopa
50 + 200 
25 + 250 
25 + 100 
10 + 100 

and which type of Pramipexole :

Strength: 0.25 
Strength: 0.5
Strength: 1 

thanks


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Payn said:


> I am considering trying this combination. Is it possible to take all these antiparkinson meds(Sinemet, Memantine) and atioxidants, when i am taking 150 mg of venlafaxine with 100mg of Trazodone? If yes than what dosage would you suggest if I want to use these drugs with my current meds ? Are there any side effects ?


I wouldn't take them together, L-dopa would increase noradrenaline, and venlafaxine is an NRI. And if you used 5-HTP as well, it could cause serotonin syndrome with venlafaxine. It may also interact badly with trazodone. I personally think 5-HTP in the combo would more than replace serotonin reuptake inhibitors, but I wouldn't want to advise coming off your prescribed meds.



Payn said:


> what type of Sinemet do you suggest for order :
> 
> Carbidopa / Levodopa
> 50 + 200
> ...


Either 10 + 100, 25 + 100 or 50 + 200. The others would probably be too nauseating. And dose must be chosen carefully, preferably starting very low and increasing slowly - the higher dose pills may be an overdose for someone without Parkinson's.



> and which type of Pramipexole :
> 
> Strength: 0.25
> Strength: 0.5
> ...


I would choose either the L-dopa combo or pramipexole, both might be too much.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

karoloydi said:


> I am having slight withdrawal symptoms again. Like mild nicotine withdrawal symptoms. If taken every day for long time this could be really addictive.
> When I get the memantine I ll see what the difference is.


Yes memantine should prevent that.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Yes memantine should prevent that.


I hope so. This afternoon it got even worse. From a scale from 1-10, if nicotine withdrawal symptoms is a 10, this was a 6. Funny thing was that I wasnt having the irritability that I had with nicotine withdrawal. I was actually quite happy. I was just having that burning feeling in my chest I was having with nicotine withdrawal. I think 5-HTP helped with that.
But I am ok now. Its 90% gone.
Are all drugs that increase dopamine addictive? How does l-dopa compare to pramipexole for example?


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## fredericmoreau (Dec 1, 2009)

> Are all drugs that increase dopamine addictive? How does l-dopa compare to pramipexole for example?


Nope, only the drugs that affect the mesolimbic/mesocortical dopamine pathways appear to cause dependence/addicition. It is these pathways, however, which seem to be malfunctioning in those with depressive or anxious disorders, so global DA increase or selective increase in the nigrostriatal or tuberoinfundibular pathways is unlikely to cause strong anxiolytic or hedonic response. This is the catch-22 of dopamine, and probably the reason we haven't seen more research for dopaminergic antidepressants/anxiolytics.

L-dopa and pramipexole shouldn't be addictive, as they will act globally on DA transmission. I'd be wary of using l-dopa given its possible cytotoxic effects. You wouldn't want to develop Parkinson's later on due to the use of l-dopa now, especially when there are so many other pro-dopamine agents out there.


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Had my second interview today. Took my regular dose. 
It didnt help as much as I was hoping for. 
I think it helped keep my anxiety at steady levels and prevent it from spiraling. And it definately helped with the nervous side effects I am having with anxiety. Usually I sweat, my mouth gets dry, I start shaking my legs up and down nervously, I start playing with my hair. This time I wasnt doing any of that.
But I was feeling mild anxiety and I felt like all the muscles on my face were really stiff and it was really hard for me to smile. 
Before and after the interview I could clearly feel the effects of the drugs. But it was like during the interview the effects were really reduced. I am not sure if the adrenaline interfered. Probably inderal is a lot better candidate for those situations, but unfortunately with my low blood pressure I cant gamble with it.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

L-dopa needs to be converted to dopamine via the enzyme DOPA decarboxylase. Homeostasis kicks into gear, DOPA decarboxylase slows down, and dopamine biosynthesis returns to normal.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> L-dopa needs to be converted to dopamine via the enzyme DOPA decarboxylase. Homeostasis kicks into gear, DOPA decarboxylase slows down, and dopamine biosynthesis returns to normal.


Memantine elevates aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase and could be capable of stopping it from slowing down.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Memantine elevates aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase and could be capable of stopping it from slowing down.


Then the autoreceptors take care of the rest. ;-)


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> Then the autoreceptors take care of the rest. ;-)


Actually they wont


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Actually they wont


O?

Vesicular release is regulated by presynaptic autoreceptors.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> O?
> 
> Vesicular release is regulated by presynaptic autoreceptors.


They should actually downregulate isnt it? Like when taking a DARI or SSRI.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> They should actually downregulate isnt it? Like when taking a DARI or SSRI.


yes... and since the transporter isn't blocked, that protein will suck the dopamine back into the neuron to either be metabolized into norepinephrine or thrown to the MAO sharks.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> yes... and since the transporter isn't blocked, that protein will suck the dopamine back into the neuron to either be metabolized into norepinephrine or thrown to the MAO sharks.


DAT density can indeed rapidly increase (a matter of minutes) however since that ppl report LDOPA to work, it isnt too big of a issue.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> DAT density can indeed rapidly increase (a matter of minutes) however since that ppl report LDOPA to work, it isnt too big of a issue.


Excellent news. Don't have an amphetamine script? Buy L-DOPA and you're all set. Boy, these DEA guys and speed addicts are just clueless! The treatment of SA is here folks, Levodopa.

Now back to reality... LOL! :haha


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> Excellent news. Don't have an amphetamine script? Buy L-DOPA and you're all set. Boy, these DEA guys and speed addicts are just clueless! The treatment of SA is here folks, Levodopa.
> 
> Now back to reality... LOL! :haha


1. Where did you read that someone claimed its as good as amphetamine?
2. DEA and speed addicts? What do they have to do with it? In case you didnt realise this combo doesnt have any recreational potential, i doubt speed addicts would be interested in this...
3. I'm gonna quote fredericmoreau as i couldnt have said it better myself, why LDOPA or pramipexole would work.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> 1. Where did you read that someone claimed its as good as amphetamine?


"The Ultimate Mood Elevator (could it be this simple?)"
I doubt it, the Ultimate Mood Elevator needs to induce reinforcing dopaminergic neurotransmission (akin to amph) to produce strong prosocial and confidence-increasing effects.



> 2. DEA and speed addicts? What do they have to do with it? In case you didnt realise this combo doesnt have any recreational potential, i doubt speed addicts would be interested in this...


If it doesn't have any recreational potential, then it likely doesn't have appreciable therapeutic potential either. See above.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

A mood elevator is not the same as a recreational drug, atleast i didnt start picturing a awesome "high" when i read the title, but actually something thats more thrapeutic.



> If it doesn't have any recreational potential, then it likely doesn't have appreciable therapeutic potential either. See above.


Let me get this straight, your now claiming that all meds that dont have any recreational potential are useless?



> Thanks fredericmoreau, the following quotes prove my point well.
> 
> "It is these pathways, however, which seem to be malfunctioning in those with depressive or anxious disorders, so global DA increase or selective increase in the nigrostriatal or tuberoinfundibular pathways is unlikely to cause strong anxiolytic or hedonic response."
> "L-dopa and pramipexole shouldn't be addictive, as they will act globally on DA transmission."


Offcourse it isnt strong as amphetamine, so i dont really know why you keep making the same point over and over again wich everyone allready knew.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> A mood elevator is not the same as a recreational drug, atleast i didnt start picturing a awesome "high" when i read the title, but actually something thats more thrapeutic.


Amphetamine IS therapeutic. I don't take it to get high, I take it because the subtle high provides the reward I need to function.



> Let me get this straight, your now claiming that all meds that dont have any recreational potential are useless?


For a dopaminergic regimen that is prosocial and gets rid of anhedonia, aka provides social reward, then a subtle DA boost is next to useless.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> Amphetamine IS therapeutic. I don't take it to get high, I take it because the subtle high provides the reward I need to function.
> *Who claimed amp isnt therapeutic?*
> 
> For a dopaminergic regimen that is prosocial and gets rid of anhedonia, aka provides social reward, then a subtle DA boost is next to useless.


So, what ehsan, guide4dummies and karoloydi reported is placebo?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Besides, LDOPA raises dopamine quite a bit, or did you think a subtle boost would help parkinson symptons?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Amph is therapeutic because it has abuse potential.



crayzyMed said:


> So, what ehsan, guide4dummies and karoloydi reported is placebo?


guide4dummies hasn't even stuck with that regimen. Links to the other trials plz?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> Amph is therapeutic because it has abuse potential.
> 
> guide4dummies hasn't even stuck with that regimen. Links to the other trials plz?


Its posted in this thread, he tried it once for severe anhedonia he had one day.

And that why amphetamine is better, why is it eather all or nothing for you? Like fredericmerau said, there wont be an as strong euphoric response as with amphetamine, that doesnt mean its completely useless.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Besides, LDOPA raises dopamine quite a bit, or did you think a subtle boost would help parkinson symptons?


Parkinson symptoms are treated by raising dopamine in non-pleasure centers. Amphetamine targets the mesocortical and mesolimbic dopaminergic pathways -- that's what gives it its therapeutic efficacy.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> Parkinson symptoms are treated by raising dopamine in non-pleasure centers. Amphetamine targets the mesocortical and mesolimbic dopaminergic pathways -- that's what gives it its therapeutic efficacy.


But LDOPA raise dopamine in that centers too!! Wich MAO inhibitors for example dont do. I know that amp is better, stop repeating that all the time lol, amp is superior, now get the hell out of this thread!:spank


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Its posted in this thread, he tried it once for severe anhedonia he had one day.


One day. That's conclusive? :con



> And that why amphetamine is better, why is it eather all or nothing for you? Like fredericmerau said, there wont be an as strong euphoric response as with amphetamine, that doesnt mean its completely useless.


Doubt it's useless, but go ahead and see for yourself if it could be a practical treatment. Our kind need ventral tegmental area stimulation, not global DA effects.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> One day. That's conclusive? :con


That actually proofs that its capable of counteracting anhedonia, but yeah now that argument can be used:b


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> But LDOPA raise dopamine in that centers too!!


Which means it induces reward. Reward = abuse potential. But we clearly disagree here so I'm getting bored.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

IllusionalFate said:


> Which means it induces reward. Reward = abuse potential. But we clearly disagree here so I'm getting bored.


Not because it globally raises dopamine, you actually quoted the post that said that yourself.


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## fredericmoreau (Dec 1, 2009)

Since I may have started this debate I figure I should weigh in. Quite honestly, I was skeptical upon hearing the miraculous hedonic effects of l-dopa because from what I know of the mesolimbocortical pathway (ie the one we need for pleasure and reinforcement) suggests that having more DA floating around won't do too much because of the presence of GABAergic inhibitory interneurons strongly mediating the activity of this pathway. In fact many addictive and pleasurable drugs act by inhibiting these interneurons. "Opiate reinforcement is proposed to be mediated by a disinhibitory mechanism, i.e., opiates inhibit VTA γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA)-ergic interneurons to decrease GABA release, which subsequently disinhibits VTA DA neurons, leading to an increase in NAcc DA release (Kelley et al., 1980)" Alcohol, benzos, and NMDAR antagonists likely cause DA increase in this way as well.

Amphetamine is able to cause strong DA release in a different way, by acting as a substrate at DAT sites. Basically, it causes the transporter to spit out any dopamine it has been storing after being uptaken from the cleft. Now, l-dopa will increase DA around the brain, but is it enough to cause activation of the mesolimbocortical pathway? Studies have suggested it is not http://www.springerlink.com/index/QQ063448X1463225.pdf.

And, as IllusionalFate has mentioned, our bodies are very good at maintaining homeostatic balance. MAO/COMT/DBH can all catabolize L-dopa very quickly, and it is not a stretch to think that those of us with anhedonic symptoms might have an excess of these enzymes which is causing our problems in the first place! So while I don't want to totally disagree with Crazymeds because for some people L-dopa could very well be a useful agent, it is not on my list as something to try and I think it could cause more trouble (dyskinesia, neurotoxicity) than it's worth.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

That study doesnt show LDOPA doesnt activate the mesolimbic area's, it does show that dopamine mayby not plays the big key role in reward as first tought. In a conditions with dopamine problems LDOPA can be of benefit.

My knowledge regarding this is rather limited tough



> And, as IllusionalFate has mentioned, our bodies are very good at maintaining homeostatic balance. MAO/COMT/AADC can all catabolize L-dopa very quickly, and it is not a stretch to think that those of us with anhedonic symptoms might have an excess of these enzymes which is causing our problems in the first place! So while I don't want to totally disagree with Crazymeds because for some people L-dopa could very well be a useful agent, it is not on my list as something to try and I think it could cause more trouble (dyskinesia, neurotoxicity) than it's worth.


That is a very plausible theory.


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## flapjacker (Nov 30, 2008)

I take 25mg sertraline (coming off of it) along with 50mg 5-htp once a day to help with mental fatigue from SSRI w/d. I find it works most excellently.

That said, I don't think anyone else should try it. I'm not very concerned about repercussions just due to the fact that my current sertraline dosage is quite low.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> Influence of L-dopa and pramipexole on striatal dopamine transporter in early PD
> 
> M. Guttman, MD, FRPCP;, D. Stewart, PhD, FRCPC, MD;, D. Hussey, BSc;, A. Wilson, PhD;, S. Houle, MD, PhD, FRCPC; and S. Kish, PhD
> From the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (Drs. Guttman, Stewart, Wilson, Houle, and Kish, and D. Hussey), Division of Neurology (Dr. Guttman), and Department of Psychiatry (Drs. Guttman, Wilson, Houle, and Kish), University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
> ...


Doesnt appear that LDOPA upregulates DAT at all, wich is not unexpected for me LDOPA doesnt lose its efficiacy rapidly.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Here's a good read on dopamine:
http://brainstimulant.blogspot.com/2008/05/is-pleasure-molecule-dopamine.html

Dopamine plays a keyrole in desire and wanting, also dopamine in the striatum has been connected with social status, a study we discussed before on this forum:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_94981.html
And also there's all the evidence about us having dopamine issues.

My point is, that even if LDOPA doesnt cause any euphoria like amphetamine, it could induce a social desire and have lots of potential for us.
Well worth exploring. Having a social desire is the most important thing, more so then inducing a euphoria wich is many cases can be quite asocial.

The few experiences we got also seem to point to it working.

About the cytotoxiticy of LDOPA, i'l look further into it.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

karoloydi said:


> I hope so. This afternoon it got even worse. From a scale from 1-10, if nicotine withdrawal symptoms is a 10, this was a 6. Funny thing was that I wasnt having the irritability that I had with nicotine withdrawal. I was actually quite happy. I was just having that burning feeling in my chest I was having with nicotine withdrawal. I think 5-HTP helped with that.
> But I am ok now. Its 90% gone.
> Are all drugs that increase dopamine addictive? How does l-dopa compare to pramipexole for example?


If they produce a relatively fast acting increase in dopamine in the pleasure areas. Pramipexole, for example, has a therapeutic lag period (due to autoreceptors) and usually doesn't give pleasurable effects for some time after initiating treatment (and even after that time, taking a dose likely wouldn't increase euphoria, but the opposite). It could perhaps have acute addictive effects if dosed extremely high, but there could be a high risk of neuroleptic malignant syndrome.



fredericmoreau said:


> L-dopa and pramipexole shouldn't be addictive, as they will act globally on DA transmission.


But wouldn't globally include the pleasure areas, as well as all other areas? I agree pramipexole shouldn't be addictive, but L-dopa is acute-acting and there are quite a lot of reports of L-dopa abuse and addiction.



> I'd be wary of using l-dopa given its possible cytotoxic effects. You wouldn't want to develop Parkinson's later on due to the use of l-dopa now, especially when there are so many other pro-dopamine agents out there.


This should be prevented by antioxidants though...



IllusionalFate said:


> L-dopa needs to be converted to dopamine via the enzyme DOPA decarboxylase. Homeostasis kicks into gear, DOPA decarboxylase slows down, and dopamine biosynthesis returns to normal.


If that were the case, L-dopa wouldn't work for Parkinson's. I guess it'd probably slow down to some extent, but not enough to render L-dopa ineffective.



IllusionalFate said:


> Parkinson symptoms are treated by raising dopamine in non-pleasure centers. Amphetamine targets the mesocortical and mesolimbic dopaminergic pathways -- that's what gives it its therapeutic efficacy.


Then why are depression and anhedonia symptoms of Parkinson's?



flapjacker said:


> I take 25mg sertraline (coming off of it) along with 50mg 5-htp once a day to help with mental fatigue from SSRI w/d. I find it works most excellently.
> 
> That said, I don't think anyone else should try it. I'm not very concerned about repercussions just due to the fact that my current sertraline dosage is quite low.


Be careful mixing those drugs .


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Took sinemet without 5-htp yesterday. I made sure I had something to eat before I took it to avoid problems like last time. I didnt have any symptoms this time.
It was a different feeling. Previous times when I took 5-HTP with it, I was feeling kind of like I took a recreational drug. This time I just felt "normal". Like I feel on a very good day. I didnt feel any increase in happiness or a buzz like last time. I just felt more confident. I felt more talkative as well. 
Only side effect that could be related, was twitching on my eyelids. It could be unrelated, I am not sure. I ve had it before without having any drugs. But it only lasted for a few hours. 
I am finding it a bit hard to concentrate today. I am a bit spaced out.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I received both LDOPA and 5HTP. I tried ldopa on its own on a sober stomach last friday but it made me feel exhausted without much benefits, i think ehsan also got this and that it worked better when he took it sublingual, after that he got a good response.

I'm gonna try the same thing with some 5HTP in a few days.


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## Raidiant (Dec 14, 2009)

interesting old thread. I guess the whole dopamine buzz is now gone, prolly due to the horrific possible side effects.

What would be the appropriate dosages? when using mucuna and green tea extract instead? I can't seem to find it mentioned on google anywhere.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

flapjacker said:


> I take 25mg sertraline (coming off of it) along with 50mg 5-htp once a day to help with mental fatigue from SSRI w/d. I find it works most excellently.
> 
> That said, I don't think anyone else should try it. I'm not very concerned about repercussions just due to the fact that my current sertraline dosage is quite low.


Thanks, you answered my question :yes :boogie
I was contemplating that, since 5-HTP is easy to get i was wondering about the effects it would have when combined with a TCA and from what u have said about Zoloft it would seem that although there are warnings about interaction between 5-htp and SSRI/NRI and TCA i was hoping there would be someone on here who had tried it with an antidepressant

so u found you could handle it because u were on a low dose of Zoloft?

anyone else mixed it with higher doses of ADs and had success?


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## ALL2FALL (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi
hope Im not to late but I just came acros this thread right now and thats why I regestered to tell you I will start with cinimet (levodopa-capridopa)+ 5htp+ huperzine tonight
I pray the lord this will work for me and I will sure keep you guys posted
through my life I used many steroids and had lots of rage but the worst one ever was the last one (GHRP-2)
with testosterone and other steroids you lose the rage after you stop using them then all the depression go when you restor your natural hormones and sex drive
but GHRP-2 broke me down
I stoped along time ago but still cant stand the depression, anxiety, and agrisiveness 
even when I was using other steroids I never ever had those weird feelings
I swear I cant even talk to people cause Im trying to save the people wo I still have but they are vanishing one after the other

I will use cenimite 250/25 but I will breack it in four peases at the begining and hope to see results
5-htp 100 mg
huperzine 200 mcg
and I will also use GABA 4g and Tyrosine 3-4g all before bed
I know its a crazy dose but its batter than hanging my self on a rope cause thats the way I feel lately
I will post you guys very soon


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## eX1gent (Dec 16, 2011)

*Updates?*

Any updates from L-Dopa users here?
Had to gravedig the thread cause there's not many posts on the topic, and this thread had some good posters.
FWIW I'm starting L-Dopa myself.


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## super (Sep 9, 2009)

can someone please sum up the thread and if the combo of meds worked ?
pleaseee


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## Plasticities (Apr 14, 2012)

*You are on the right track euphoria!!*

In a quest to help my body recover from the harmful effects of alcoholism, I tried this alternative supplement therapy, and was shocked to find that it not only ended my desire to drink, but also cured my lifelong severe depression and anxiety. Why did it work, where traditional medicine failed? Because the root of all illness, both physical AND mental, is a weakened immune system (in addition to other malfunctioning bodily systems). The only way to build up your immune system is to replace your body's vital nutrients that work in a million different facets to heal and re-energize you. I don't want to sound morbid, but if you don't do this treatment at some point, you will never get better.
 Medicinal treatments for psychiatric conditions, are only partially and temporarily helpful. They fill your body with so many toxic elements that you are forced to use your already depleted resources to attempt to remove them. This takes your body's focus away from performing important processes such as serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine creation. Merely trapping the dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine that your body already has, isn't enough. People with mental illness need to create these brain chemicals with the following precursor amino acids: L-Tryptophan, L-Tyrosine. 

I'm going to post a list of the supplements I take and a brief description of why they work, but I want to say well done euphoria! I wish I had been smart enough to figure this out on my own.


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## Plasticities (Apr 14, 2012)

*Vitamin Therapy for Depression and Anxiety Disorders*

*GLA* (Gamma-Linolenic Acid)  
A biochemical cause of major depression is a genetic inability to manufacture enough prostaglandin E1 (PGE1), an important brain metabolite derived from essential fatty acids. The problem is the result of an inborn deficiency in Omega-6 essential fatty acid (EFA). The body easily converts Gamma-Linolenic Acid (GLA) to PGE1.
-GLA can be purchased as Evening Primrose Oil, Borage Oil, or Black Currant Oil supplements.
*Take one 300mg capsule with breakfast and lunch.

*Multivitamin*
Contains minerals and additional nutrients needed for emotional health.
*Take two capsules with breakfast and lunch.

*Vitamin C*
Removes toxins in the body which play a role in a wide range of mood disorders.
*Take two 1000mg capsules with breakfast and lunch.

*B Complex * 
Several B vitamins are powerful anti-stress agents and promote healthy mood.
*Take two capsules with breakfast and lunch.

*Inositol*  
A chemical compound that changes into a substance in the body that regulates serotonin's effectiveness within nerve cells.
*Take two 500mg capsules with breakfast and lunch.

*Tyrosine*
An amino acid converted in the brain into norepinephrine and dopamine; two of the brain's neurotransmitters responsible for regulating stress and mood.
*Take two 500mg capsule two times a day on an empty stomach.

*GABA*
Used for the relief of anxiety, this amino acid has a powerful calming effect on the brain. Tranquilizers like Valium and Xanax work by stimulating the brain's receptors for GABA.
Take two 100mg capsules at breakfast and lunch.

*St. John's Wort* (Hypercium)
Like many new depression medications, this herb works by limiting serotonin reuptake, but has no side effects.  
*Take one 300mg capsule 3 times a day on an empty stomach .

@NIGHT
*Tryptophan*
An amino acid needed to form serotonin and which controls mood, sleep, sex drive, and pain threshold. Replacing serotonin lifts depression, anxiety, and insomnia.
*Take four 500mg capsules on an empty stomach or 1 teaspoon of powder.  
*Tryptophan alone cannot be converted into serotonin without an additonal 1000mg capsule of vitamin C, and a B Complex capsule. Take 1 one each at bedtime. 

Melatonin
Hormone derived from serotonin that promotes healthy sleep and works as an antioxidant free radical toxin scavenger.


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