# I'm not finding any girlfriends



## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

No matter what I have tried still have 0 success. I'm just fed up now, all the stupid pep talks people gave me are not helping anymore, mabye they are wrong and there really is nobody out there for me, there is obviously something wrong with me, even the geekiest of guys or the jerks I know have found someone, this is just ridiculous now!

There is nothing more I can do to try, I have done all I can and pushed my limits. Nobody is going to come running to me, so I guess this is it for me if nobody accepts my interest in them.

I'm at the end of the rope now I cannot feel any lower in my life than I do now. I never thought it would come down to this. 

I really hate who I am and how I look, if nobody likes me for me, then I think it was a mistake being born and to deal with 25 years of crap and torment, and at the end for what, nothing good! 
Someone like me is better 6 feet underground because everyone around me is sick of hearing me complain all the time and being a depressed person, and they cant help me either. This is my problem alone.

Here is my profile, you can look for yourself. This is me in a nutshell mostly. Focus on how I look, this is what I see as a problem, my looks. http://www.okcupid.com/profile/lonelyguyny


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## Emanresu (Jun 2, 2010)

Ever thought maybe you're trying to hard? Chicks can smell it a mile away.


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

First I tried basic stuff like just saying hi and only talking to someone if they talked to me first, nobody took any interest. Then I stepped up and acted confident and started a conversation with them first, what guys usually do. I complimented them and said they sound like interesting and I would like to know more about them, and we talked about everyday things or what she liked.

Thats it, it never went any further than that. I've tried dressing better wearing clothes that look better on me, I have tried eating healthier so I look and feel good, i;ve been more social and have had conversations with women and I approached them first, even got a new haircut and put gel in my hair and I got compliments.

All seemed to go well, but nothing more came of all I did. I'm confused, I did everything right, and still nothing. It has to be ME thats the problem, and I cant fix myself, you only get 1 body. It's over.  I lost


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## bafranksbro (Feb 19, 2011)

Hey, cheer up dude, it's harder for some, me included!!! I've hardly ever had any luck with online dating, only gotten one date over the past couple years and only still talking to one person I met through any of it. It's not as easy as some make it seem, I've found it really hard to get past any initial phase because of the notion everyone has in their mind that it's a dating site... everyone has their guard up so it's hard to get anywhere.


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

Emanresu said:


> Ever thought maybe you're trying to hard? Chicks can smell it a mile away.


This is my guess aswell.
You are so hard on yourself and perhaps come across nervous/insecure very obviously to women??
Is that the case or you dont know?
I wouldnt give up yet if I were u


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## brianNicholas (Feb 16, 2011)

the girlfriends i've had have been girls i just happened to have already known. which puts me in a worse position than you, because not only do i fail at getting girls, but now i'm too lazy to even try. i have to start from the beginning, like a child learning to walk, as far as getting girls goes


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

Lets go back to High School, before online dating.

I was a heck of a lot more shy, in general, around everyone. I was a geek, really skinny, and had bad acne. My voice wasnt even that deep people always called me gay boy. It was not good.

However, girls did talk to me, I was always more comfortable around them talking, and they enjoyed my calm and nice personality, some even called me smart. I am not sure if that's becuase they thought I was gay, or they really liked my personality. But, when it came to dating, or even saying i'm good looking, I have Never ever heard that, I am still waiting to hear that from a Woman. I never went to prom or any dance event, I skipped HS Graduation vacation which was a Cruise to Cancun, I know nobody would want to hang with me.

There were girls I had crushes on, one I had to do a project in school. I talked to her a lot in School and we talked about our interests and such, and I liked her so much I wanted to ask her out, or jsut be friends and hang out.
I found out she was dating someone, he was an enemy of mine. Whenever I was near this girl I got dirty looks, and he was on the football team and always made threats me for. As much as I liked that girl, it just wasnt worth the stress everyday of that guy threatening me.

I've hung out with other girls back then too, they always crushed on my friends, never me. 

When you had to pick a partner for a project, I was always picked last, unless it involved being smart, they only used me for my knowledge. 

Eventually I graduated, and I havent talked to any of my classmates ever since.


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## PHD in Ebonics (Jan 5, 2010)

Chloroform, bro.


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## purplefruit (Jan 11, 2011)

Psychedelic Breakfast said:


> Chloroform, bro.


:rofl

So OK Cupid hasn't worked out?


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## daniel1989 (Feb 14, 2011)

My advice for you is to just focus on your career and forget about getting a girlfriend until someone comes along.


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

Eliza said:


> :rofl
> 
> So OK Cupid hasn't worked out?


Friends is the best I've gotten. I want more than that though.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Don't give up.

In my experience, the harder people "try" to find a relationship, the less successful they are. Or if they do find someone it might be a person who's not really right for them, but they are so eager just to be in a relationship that they try to force something to happen when there may be little to no actual chemistry.

My advice would be to stop trying so hard for awhile. Focus on life, on friendships, on work, on school, on whatever else you can to make your life rich and fulfilling. Usually the right person comes along when you least expect it.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Emanresu said:


> Ever thought maybe you're trying to hard? Chicks can smell it a mile away.


It's always one thing or another, you know? Half the guys on here get told they aren't trying hard enough and need to open up and grow a pair when it comes to approaching women. Then the other half get told they're too desperate and needy.

Ever stop and think maybe these are just excuses for the fact that some guys _can't attract women for the life of them_? At least, not without some fundamental alterations of their core selves that may border on the impossible?

Not saying this is necessarily the case for Keith; indeed, I genuinely hope it's not. But I must say, he has a point: a lot of folks will really grasp at straws in order to find an easy-peasy, optimistic, _fair_ explanation for why someone is failing to meet their goals in this area of life. Sometimes there is none.


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

It might be like that for me. The question is, is there any way to fix this? Right now a Prostitute is the only woman who would even consider me, but that's only for the money, and I just couldn't even consider them, Stds just aren't worth it.


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## daniel1989 (Feb 14, 2011)

Just find a woman who's like your equal and go from there =]


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

Your OKCupid thread was pretty recent. You've already given up on online dating already?


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

I was reading this article about how to get a girlfriend, and I can see why nobody wants me. I don't act right, I'm unattractive, and uninteresting. 
I don't see myself able to change though, I'm too set in my ways as a person, so I might be that lonely guy you see sitting outside his house at night looking like he is a lost soul.
http://m.wikihow.com/Get-a-Girlfriend


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## rumjungle (Feb 13, 2009)

Perfectionist said:


> Your OKCupid thread was pretty recent. You've already given up on online dating already?


^This. Why are you giving up already? It takes time and a lot of trial and error to meet someone and then even more time and effort to build that into a relationship.


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

Perfectionist said:


> Your OKCupid thread was pretty recent. You've already given up on online dating already?


I was pretty much mashed up, spit out , and stepped on repeatedly there by over 40 men and women who made a thread about me telling me to leave the site and im a worthless, ugly, stupid piece of **** and a troll and I deserve to be lonely. And this 1 girl has it out for me calling me a creeper and a rapist, yes, a rapist, because she was raped and I didn't agree the guy who raped her should be killed. She wants him dead, and me.

Anyone viewing my profile can read this, one look at that and nobody will ever contact me. They basically ruined the whole site for me. There's no other place now I can look.

No matter where I go, or who I talk to, people always have it out for me, just cause. They just don't like me for no reason.


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## KennethJones (Jun 22, 2009)

Keith, your situation is not that unique. Many men (past and present) have been in your situation.

Its hard for us guys because mother nature generally doesn't give us easy pickings. We have to fight and compete for what we get. And in this competition there are many *losers*. In human history a large percentage of men were not even allowed the chance to propagate their genes.  These men were the losers of this big competition that men still compete in to this day.



keithp said:


> It might be like that for me. The question is, is there any way to fix this? Right now a Prostitute is the only woman who would even consider me, but that's only for the money, and I just couldn't even consider them, Stds just aren't worth it.


You are right. Prostitute are definitely not worth it. You are better off just watching porn.

A prostitute will never be able to offer you what you want because she doesn't care about you nor does she want you. A prostitute can not offer you the experience of what it feels like to engage a woman because she genuinely likes you. Prostitutes will hate you and see you as an obstacle that needs to be overcome to gain profit. This is why prostitution is comparable to being a janitor. Its a dirty job but some do it in order to make a living.

To a prosotute you are like that dirty toilet that a janitor has to clean everyday. Who wants to be somebody's dirty toilet? Most people want to be loved, accepted, and genuinely appreciated. But you can't experience those things when nature is getting the best of you and you can't adequately compete with other men out there.

The sad reality is that a great percentage of men today will fall victim to failure just as other men in the past have fallen. These men will grow old and alone. They will only have their thoughts of what could have been in their youth as they continue to long for contact from the opposite sex.

Will you fall victim to failure? Will you fail to compete with other men? Will a woman ever find you suitable enough? Will a woman end up picking you when she has hundreds of choices at her disposal? I don't know the answers to these questions but I know you do.

When you come to terms with reality I hope you are prepared to face it.

And please do not consider any of my post as an insult to you as I am in your exact situation. As a matter of fact my situation is much worse.



keithp said:


> I was reading this article about how to get a girlfriend, and I can see why nobody wants me. I don't act right, I'm unattractive, and uninteresting.
> I don't see myself able to change though, I'm too set in my ways as a person,* so I might be that lonely guy you see sitting outside his house at night looking like he is a lost soul.*
> http://m.wikihow.com/Get-a-Girlfriend


This is what life can be keith. Life is filled with disappointments, gains, and losses. In the end, it can be a slow process of degradation (degradation of the self until there is nothing left).


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## bafranksbro (Feb 19, 2011)

Wow, that's rather defeatist... you only fall victim to that if you actually believe in that line of thinking. I say don't just rely on dating sites and don't be impatient, women on dating sites are at their pickiest. You just have to focus on life and making yourself a better person, becoming desperate and obsessed with finding a girlfriend will get you no where, you won't find a girlfriend and you won't have the life you want.

I know what I'm talking about, I'm 26 and never even had a first kiss, I've never even gotten to first base. I've spent much of my life for the past ten years feeling that I'll never have someone and maybe that'll end up being the case but since I've started focusing my life in different areas and started taking on my problems one by one I've found a lot more opportunities are coming my way. Nothing has completely panned out yet but I have opportunities and thats far more than I had before. I've had a number of opportunities come and go, mostly because I'll like one girl more than another and put all my eggs in the wrong basket so I have to start over again. Right now there's a girl at work that I'm really into and over this past week I've really gotten close to her.

Anyway, if you asked me last year if I'd even have a chance with anyone I'd without a doubt say no. I never even saw myself being able to talk to a girl just as recent as last week but if she truly is a great worthwhile person she'll help you get through it and once that happens it's a lot easier. I was mumbling and stumbling and trying to ask her out while turning beet red and guess what, she doesn't hate me, I got her number, a carpool with her, and possibly a trip to Maine with her since then.

Don't give up dude, just be patient and focus your efforts else where, I know it doesn't sound logical but I swear it's the best way. Sure it won't get you something instantly but it will get you something eventually.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

anomalous said:


> It's always one thing or another, you know? Half the guys on here get told they aren't trying hard enough and need to open up and grow a pair when it comes to approaching women. Then the other half get told they're too desperate and needy.
> 
> Ever stop and think maybe these are just excuses for the fact that some guys _can't attract women for the life of them_? At least, not without some fundamental alterations of their core selves that may border on the impossible?
> 
> Not saying this is necessarily the case for Keith; indeed, I genuinely hope it's not. But I must say, he has a point: a lot of folks will really grasp at straws in order to find an easy-peasy, optimistic, _fair_ explanation for why someone is failing to meet their goals in this area of life. Sometimes there is none.


Okay, I have considered your idea of there being some guys who can't attract women for their life of them without some fundamental alterations to their core selves (I have no idea what you think those alterations would be?) and I'm afraid the notion doesn't hold. Women remain individuals with many different, varied, wants and desires which makes it very, very unlikely that a man could be in a position where he is fundamentally unattractive to all women all of the time.

It would be possible for a man to talk himself into such a belief system and launching attacks on the self all the time can be seen as a method of reducing attraction to the opposite sex (or, indeed, the same sex if we're working with gay men) but beyond that, the opportunities remain.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*Its hard for us guys because mother nature generally doesn't give us easy pickings. We have to fight and compete for what we get. And in this competition there are many losers. In human history a large percentage of men were not even allowed the chance to propagate their genes. These men were the losers of this big competition that men still compete in to this day. *

Okay, leaving aside the massive, sweeping assumption that you're in the same situation as KeithP is or that you even have much of a handle on your own situation, mother nature doesn't give us easy pickings? How do you know this?

We have to fight and compete for what we get? Are you walking around the street with a massive great big club and a caveman expression on your face or did you wake up with everyone else in the 21st century? Losers? What losers? Allowed the chance to propagate their genes? Sex isn't only about procreation. Women have it for pleasure too you know. So what on earth is all this stuff all the time about propagation of genes. This is about one man getting a date. Not about the survival of the entire human race. Bring the perspective back out of the evolutionary psychology textbook.

Okay, you see, here's the thing, do you not think sweeping assumptions about how a prostitute might view the OP were a bit out of order? I mean, you have no idea whatsoever how a prostitute might feel or act towards anyone. You're just guessing. So why guess negatively?

*The sad reality is that a great percentage of men today will fall victim to failure just as other men in the past have fallen. These men will grow old and alone. They will only have their thoughts of what could have been in their youth as they continue to long for contact from the opposite sex. *

Fall victim to failure? Sad reality? You wouldn't know reality if it bit you on the nose. I say that with the greatest of respect and love but you keep making massive, sweeping assumptions and guesses about what will happen to men simply because it fits in with your theories. How do you know these men will grow old and alone?

Fall victim to failure as if they have no choice in the matter because those horrible women cackling away as they deliberately deny those men the opportunity to pass on their genes in the great nonsense conspiracy?

*Will you fall victim to failure? Will you fail to compete with other men? Will a woman ever find you suitable enough? Will a woman end up picking you when she has hundreds of choices at her disposal? I don't know the answers to these questions but I know you do. *

You know the original poster knows the answers to your questions, do you? How? Fail to compete with other men? In what competition? Suitable enough? What does that mean?

And as for choices, well, men have choices and women have choices. It's not just about the woman having choices. I've been on dating websites where women have fewer choices than men and websites where the balance is different. It's called life outside an interpretation of everything through the lens of evolutionary psychology.

*When you come to terms with reality I hope you are prepared to face it. *

Personally, I hope you are too. Because when you come to terms with reality, it's gonna be a shock.

*
This is what life can be keith. Life is filled with disappointments, gains, and losses. In the end, it can be a slow process of degradation (degradation of the self until there is nothing left).*

How is life automatically a degradation of the self. I mean, if you're not stuck in some belief system feedback loop where everything is bad all the time? How does that work?

Because, yeah, relationships are hard sometimes. We're in this together. The human condition can be hard and tough. But why does that automatically lead to damage to the self? Unless of course it is simply a matter of over seeking validation from the external?


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## girlinwinter (Feb 19, 2011)

Sorry you're in this situation. Can I just say that this is not exclusive to males either? The argument that it's somehow harder for men isn't true (or if there's any truth to it, its only that it may be easier for women to find meaningless sex, not fulfilling relationships).

If you've decided that there's nothing you can do, that you've tried everything, perhaps this is an indication that it's not something within your control. This would mean it's also not something you're doing wrong, or that you can be blamed for. 

There's no easy way to stop caring, but if you're not getting what you want either way, it makes sense to concentrate on the things you want to do, being the way you want to be, rather than wasting efforts or trying to change when you've found this isn't paying off.

I always feel like everyone else lives in a different world, where connections are just formed - it's easy for them to assume it's a matter of things they do or don't do, something within their control. My life seems to operate according to a different logic. It's a very lonely way to live, and I could speculate forever over the reasons why it's so (and there seem some quite glaring reasons why my life is different, but none of them completely explaining why I just don't get other people), but I can't force it to be different. I can only hope that either I will be changed, or that I'll find someone so that I can fully accept that I don't need to change.

Don't put so much belief into articles and stuff you read telling you what you should or shouldn't do. Not everyone operates according to the same rules.


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

I just wish for something to break, meaning a female to contact me and say nice stuff about me like I say about her, to show some interest in me. And even if she just wanted to be friends, thats cool. I can always try to move up in the future if things go well. Even if all we do is talk on Facebook and mabye play games as thats mostly the only thing I do there, that would be good. 
I dont have any non-related females on facebook that are straight, my family thinks i'm gay, and they told me to my face. And in my Family unless your dating the opposite sex they will never think im straight. Plus, i'm the last to pass on the last name, except my dad i'm the last. Everyone finds this to be important, I jsut want a girlfriend for a companion, i;m not too concerned about the name sake.

I am very lonely at home. I dont have any cousins to talk to, no friends, my family does not offer support. I'm surprised I havent started talking to the wall yet! It's not healthy and I know that, but I cant force people to talk to me if they dont want to.

Why i'm more or less wanting women is part becuase in the past I had so many guy friends, I didn't have fun hanging out with them. I am not into sports or drinking or hanging out at hooters and bars. So for my age guys as friends do very little for me. Women are not only attractive, but they listen better overall, and they are calmer, and I like that. I feel more comfortable around them. So I really want some female friends close to my age, that way we have a better chance at finding things in common than someone too young or too old than me.

I'm still leaving my profile up, just in case there is hope someone nice comes along.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*I just wish for something to break, meaning a female to contact me and say nice stuff about me like I say about her, to show some interest in me. And even if she just wanted to be friends, thats cool. I can always try to move up in the future if things go well. Even if all we do is talk on Facebook and mabye play games as thats mostly the only thing I do there, that would be good. *

Who says that won't happen? But what are we talking about here, validation from the women? That's not gonna be a good road to go down. Goodness knows what's going on but holding the validation of the self you get from inside will help. I know the effect getting interest from women has on the self esteem but searching for it to maintain or increase or even hold the self esteem at a constant level is asking for trouble.

*I dont have any non-related females on facebook that are straight, my family thinks i'm gay, and they told me to my face. And in my Family unless your dating the opposite sex they will never think im straight. Plus, i'm the last to pass on the last name, except my dad i'm the last. Everyone finds this to be important, I jsut want a girlfriend for a companion, i;m not too concerned about the name sake.*

Never mind the expectations of others. They can wait. What do you want? Is this really all about just finding someone because you want to or because you think other people want/need you to?

And how about getting some non related female friends who are straight on Facebook?

*Why i'm more or less wanting women is part becuase in the past I had so many guy friends, I didn't have fun hanging out with them. I am not into sports or drinking or hanging out at hooters and bars. So for my age guys as friends do very little for me. Women are not only attractive, but they listen better overall, and they are calmer, and I like that. I feel more comfortable around them. So I really want some female friends close to my age, that way we have a better chance at finding things in common than someone too young or too old than me.*

Okay, fine. Sounds good. How about moving towards getting those female friends then?

*I'm still leaving my profile up, just in case there is hope someone nice comes along.*

Good idea.


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## KennethJones (Jun 22, 2009)

joinmartin, your optimism does not hold up against thousands of years of human history and experience. 

Life is usually not as optimistic as people would like to believe. Life can be a very nasty, tormenting, and horrific experience filled with pain, longing, and a plethora of disappointments. Believing otherwise isn't going to make anyone's life any better. 

The only way the masses can find relief is to understand that life is a temporary condition.

I hope keith understands that his situation is temporary. Because in the end, no one is getting out of life alive.


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## KennethJones (Jun 22, 2009)

girlinwinter said:


> Sorry you're in this situation. * Can I just say that this is not exclusive to males either? The argument that it's somehow harder for men isn't true (or if there's any truth to it, its only that it may be easier for women to find meaningless sex, not fulfilling relationships).*


Its definitely harder for men. For thousands of years the body and mind of the male has evolved to be fit to fight and compete. The body and mind could not have evolved this way if the nature of competition was not real.

I am not saying that females can't face difficulties but there are certain aspects in life where the female will always have the upper hand. Accepting that fact is in no way disrespectful to any gender.

Each gender has certain roles to play so there will be different situations in which one gender has an advantage over the other. For example, men are naturally better competitors than women and women are generally better care takers than men. This is why you hear so many men say they would rather tell their problems to a woman as they tend to be more empathetic, caring, and know how to listen.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

KennethJones said:


> joinmartin, your optimism does not hold up against thousands of years of human history and experience.
> 
> Life is usually not as optimistic as people would like to believe. Life can be a very nasty, tormenting, and horrific experience filled with pain, longing, and a plethora of disappointments. Believing otherwise isn't going to make anyone's life any better.
> 
> ...


*joinmartin, your optimism does not hold up against thousands of years of human history and experience. *

That's a pretty bold claim. I'd love to hear how it doesn't.

*Life is usually not as optimistic as people would like to believe. Life can be a very nasty, tormenting, and horrific experience filled with pain, longing, and a plethora of disappointments. Believing otherwise isn't going to make anyone's life any better. *

How do you know life is usually not as optimistic as people would like to believe? Worshipping the bleakness can be a fun pursuit I guess but the relative, subjective, fluid and evolving nature of so many things does give people the choice of viewing something as "negative" or "positive" or as neither. Now, sometimes, it's not right to use that choice. If you lose someone you love, you don't deal with it well by not processing anything and just sitting there saying it's obviously a "positive" and not a "negative". Sometimes we need to feel and process the pain in order to grow, which, in itself would be a negative moving into a positive.

I have respect for your belief system about life, regardless of how much I disagree with it. So, with respect, don't tell me that believing otherwise to how you think the world is isn't going to make anyone's life any better. I'm sorry if you've felt pain in your life, I'm sorry if you've been disappointed. But that doesn't make your life bad or life in general bad or negative.

*The only way the masses can find relief is to understand that life is a temporary condition.*

With love and respect, how are you speaking for the masses and what they do or do not feel?

Also, life can be a temporary condition. But goodness knows if that's it. We don't know everything. It could go on. It might change. Who knows?

*I hope keith understands that his situation is temporary. Because in the end, no one is getting out of life alive*

Yes, his "negative" situation is temporary. Life goes on, life changes, we change life etc. Him feeling bad about a situation in his life right now doesn't make his entire life bad and doesn't mean his entire life will be filled with just hurt, disappointments etc.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

KennethJones said:


> Its definitely harder for men. For thousands of years the body and mind of the male has evolved to be fit to fight and compete. The body and mind could not have evolved this way if the nature of competition was not real.
> 
> I am not saying that females can't face difficulties but there are certain aspects in life where the female will always have the upper hand. Accepting that fact is in no way disrespectful to any gender.
> 
> Each gender has certain roles to play so there will be different situations in which one gender has an advantage over the other. For example, men are naturally better competitors than women and women are generally better care takers than men. This is why you hear so many men say they would rather tell their problems to a woman as they tend to be more empathetic, caring, and know how to listen.


*Its definitely harder for men. For thousands of years the body and mind of the male has evolved to be fit to fight and compete. The body and mind could not have evolved this way if the nature of competition was not real. *

And for thousands of years the body and the mind of the "female" (yeah, they have names by the way) has evolved too. Girls compete with each other. Girls fight with each other too (I once got in the middle of two girls fighting and I wanted to get the hell out of there quite fast). Even if your hypothesis holds about how we've evolved, that doesn't prove it's any harder for one gender than the other.

*I am not saying that females can't face difficulties but there are certain aspects in life where the female will always have the upper hand. Accepting that fact is in no way disrespectful to any gender. *

I've got a feeling this has to do with imagined pools again. Could be wrong. Supposing your hypothesis holds and some situations in life do involve the female having the upper hand...well, there's loads of situations in life where one could say the male has the upper hand and more than enough to cancel out the playing field and make it so that nobody really has the upper hand.

*Each gender has certain roles to play so there will be different situations in which one gender has an advantage over the other. For example, men are naturally better competitors than women and women are generally better care takers than men. This is why you hear so many men say they would rather tell their problems to a woman as they tend to be more empathetic, caring, and know how to listen.*

With the greatest of respect, what? Men are better competitors than women? Really, well, okay then, I'm gonna go up to Dame Kelly Holmes, one of the UK's finest athletes and an inspiration to millions and say: "oh, I can beat you in a race because I'm a man and I'm naturally a better competitor than you are". Twaddle. What exactly is a care taker?

There's no evidence to suggest that men are any less able to listen then women are. Outside the assumption based, not much of a leg to stand on gender "roles" ideas about the sexes that is.

You could just as easily say that men prefer to open up to women because opening up to other guys might make them feel less manly. It could have absolutely nothing to do with any superior listening ability demonstrated by the so called "female".


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

While I agree it is harder for men than women, it isn't to the point where one should simply give up. Until you've had a girl call the police, send her boyfriend(s) to beat you up, or call you a creepy stalker to everyone to the point of making it an attempt to destroy your reputation with your only crime being that you like them, I don't think you have much of a case to be misogynistic towards women at all. If I did that, I probably wouldn't be where I'm at right now.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

girlinwinter said:


> Sorry you're in this situation. Can I just say that this is not exclusive to males either? The argument that it's somehow harder for men isn't true (or if there's any truth to it, its only that it may be easier for women to find meaningless sex, not fulfilling relationships).
> 
> If you've decided that there's nothing you can do, that you've tried everything, perhaps this is an indication that it's not something within your control. This would mean it's also not something you're doing wrong, or that you can be blamed for.
> 
> ...


Wonderful post. Your realism is greatly appreciated in the sea of deluded thought known as SAS.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm not optimistic, I'm not defeatist either, I'm realistic. If being realistic somehow makes me a bad person, then that's just sad. I think ultra positive thinking is just a diversion that will prevent you from reaching your goals in life.

It is harder for men to attract women and find dates. None of us here on this forum are saying this to be mean. We are just awoken, and we know how bad things have gotten these days. Back in the 20's and 30's men had it much more easier It's more like just seeing things realistically. Females have full control today over men in the dating scene and the relationship game. They have tons of guys approaching them and being interested in them while guys can go years through life without getting interest simply because why...why did this happen....because he's a guy and some invisible rule says he is supposed to be assertive? or be left out? so women are saying if you don't come to me then i could care less about you? and what about women who are anti-social? none of this stuff cripples them as much as it does a guy because women are able to get away with it and be passive. And then there is the provider role that men are supposed to take. Even though feminism wants women to be independent. Men by default go by 1 thing and that is looks. Nothing else. Here is the thing though. If the guy is desperate eventually he will disregard his standards and settle for what is available. Women do not do this, on the majority. Women by default of course, and the majority, go by looks, social status, money, and material things in a guy. They won't settle until the right one is found. This is female hypergamy. Many men are victimized by this as well. An isolated exception means nothing. It's what the majority does that counts. So it is clearly women who are the more shallow ones. What about guys who haven't had friends for years? or who are unattractive? or are just losers by default for something that isn't there fault? how can they be successful in a system that's rigged? in a country where women are on pedestals by society? As a guy, you need to accept that fact that you are competing in a rigged system. And here's the thing, even if most of it is because of human biology or how we are wired the fact that it's such a problem really says something. Joinmartin will deny this whole post, but that's okay.

Age 20+ for a guy with NO experience in ANYTHING with the opposite sex is a dark path to go down. I'm well on my way to going this way even though I really don't want to. If you haven't lived it and aren't, or anymore, then you have no idea what it's like either.


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

> Age 20+ for a guy with NO experience in ANYTHING with the opposite sex is a dark path to go down. I'm well on my way to going this way even though I really don't want to. If you haven't lived it and aren't, or anymore, then you have no idea what it's like either.


C'mon, seriously? Anymore? I know how it feels like to be looked at the majority of girls in disdain. Even if I have a girlfriend now, I STILL know how it feels, because I STILL have to deal with it everyday. The only difference is I can see the girls for who they are, and know that if I ever dated them my life wouldn't be where it is today.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*Joinmartin will deny this whole post, but that's okay.*

Thanks for the mention. Appreciate it.

*Age 20+ for a guy with NO experience in ANYTHING with the opposite sex is a dark path to go down. I'm well on my way to going this way even though I really don't want to. If you haven't lived it and aren't, or anymore, then you have no idea what it's like either.*

Well, things aren't going to change much, are they? You have a strategy in place to stop change. The system is rigged, in your eyes, so why bother? In your eyes, you're a loser, so why bother? In your eyes, you know what the majority of women want, will do etc. So why bother making changes? With love and respect, that is a wonderful excuse. And you're entitled to your beliefs. Your beliefs are more than open to challenge and counter and you and I can argue until the end of time about how things "are". But I have to refer to the therapist in me and ask: are you happy with how things are right now?

Is this belief system you have about women and your own attractiveness serving you? You act as if you having no experienced with the opposite sex is 100% not your responsibility. I'm not saying it's your fault. Circumstances are powerful things. But what's going on to make changes? Or are you just planning on going on and on about how the system is rigged all the time? Would make a good pick up line.

I do know what it's like. I can't walk a mile in your shoes but I have had similar experiences and frustrations to you. You think women were just served up on a plate for me? Rubbish. You think it's been easy for me? Rubbish.

I've overcome so many dating and relationship challenges that it's not funny anymore. You think I was born with this optimistic take on life? For a long time, I was the biggest pessimist going. I've had self hate, depression, anxiety issues and oh, yeah, almost forgot: lost my left elbow for a bit. And none of that stopped me. I was chatting up the nurses when I was going into shock on the day of the accident. Actually, I was mainly doing it to keep myself from going into shock.

Circumstances have thrown themselves over me like waves so, whilst I understand I can never know exactly what it is like for you, do not speak to me as if I don't know the frustrations and challenges men can face in the dating world. Because I do. Why do you think I'm here? I've been through a lot and I want to help people so they might stand a chance of things turning out better then when I experienced similar things to them.

My way of thinking is no better than any other way of thinking. But it has brought me: dates, relationships, interest from women, wonderful life experiences, friends, more than one job, appearing on TV, appearing on the radio, being published in national magazines in more than one country...all possible, in part, because of my way of thinking. Now, it works for me and that doesn't mean it will automatically work for anyone else. But it's not a delusion. It's a powerful positive force.

I'm not asking anyone to think how I think. But it is just interesting that my way of thinking has given me so much. What has your way of thinking and your attitude given you?


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

You are not alone dude. I just feel that sadly some guys like you and I have it harder than other guys. I also feel my looks are a problem. IMO it's all mostly about looks and/or status when it comes to attracting most women. I bet those same chicks that rejected you would jump on your dick if you had an income of $200k+ a year. It's a shallow world we live in. This might not necessarily mean that that all girls find you unattractive though. You will have to rid of SA to really find out.


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## KennethJones (Jun 22, 2009)

Joinmartin, your optimistic views are true but understand that they are *exceptional* - meaning very rare. In my opinion what you are doing is comparable to telling homeless people to be hopeful because they could win the lottery one day. Sometimes we have to accept the fact that the optimistic viewpoint is so rare that it has no basis in reality.

As of now the pessimistic view is more based in reality than the optimistic view. This is why depressed people tend to have such a strong grasp on reality. Their minds are not swayed by false hopes because they understand that their depression is also a reflection of the world as a whole.

And like stranger said above, this is not about having a defeatist attitude. Once you accept reality then you will accept that the pessimistic view is more based in reality than the optimistic.
​


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*Joinmartin, your optimistic views are true but understand that they are exceptional - meaning very rare. In my opinion what you are doing is comparable to telling homeless people to be hopeful because they could win the lottery one day. Sometimes we have to accept the fact that the optimistic viewpoint is so rare that it has no basis in reality. *

So, my views are true are they? Interesting.

You are entitled to your opinion about what you think it is that I do. Even if it is grounded in utter nonsense. Something is not exceptional or rare just because you think it is. And we don't have to accept the "fact" of which you speak because it's not a fact it's just what you believe to be true. My viewpoint has a very strong basis in reality.

*As of now the pessimistic view is more based in reality than the optimistic view. This is why depressed people tend to have such a strong grasp on reality. Their minds are not swayed by false hopes because they understand that their depression is also a reflection of the world as a whole. *

If depressed people tend to have a strong grasp on reality then why is depression a mental disorder?

Why would any hope going through their minds automatically be false?

Their depression is a reflection of the world as a whole? How? So, a depressed person gets very, very arrogant and decides they somehow know all there is to know about reality and everything that can or will be and that's not an example of a mental health problem but an expression of them having a deeper understanding of reality than everybody else? You sure about that?

*And like stranger said above, this is not about having a defeatist attitude. Once you accept reality then you will accept that the pessimistic view is more based in reality than the optimistic. *

With respect and love, do not tell me what I will and will not accept. I'm not going to accept your belief system as reality. I'm not going to accept that worship of the bleakness is somehow seeing reality as it really is. I'm not going to accept that the pessimistic viewpoint is more based in reality than an optimistic one and I would like to ask how adopting a pessimistic outlook doesn't generate a defeatist attitude?

You're entitled to believe what you want to believe. My belief system might not be right. Unlike you, it seems, I'm open to new possibilities and the fact that I don't know everything there is to know about things. But my belief system has led me to have a good life. Whilst yours has...well...what has it done for you?


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> *But my belief system has led me to have a good life. Whilst yours has...well...what has it done for you?*


*

So you find a shoe that fits and you expect to fit on everyone else? That's like saying the English national football team should immediately hire Pele or Maradonna as Manager, so they can share their belief system upon the football players and win a World Cup after so many years. Or like telling Brad Pitt to give dating advice to 25+ year old virgin making him a pimp after many years.*


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

I also forgot to mention something bad that happened to me in the past, why the only attention I got by a "straight" girl was a negative one. I'm not sure if this has to do with my situation, but it's worth mentioning.

In High School I was sexually assaulted by a girl in my grade. I must have been 14 or 15. She and a friend grabbed my testicles, hard to the point I was in severe pain, tryed to force a pencil up my ***, and her and another girl pulled down my pants in front of 200 or so classmates, nothing was done by anyone.
This happened 2 or 3 times. I felt like hitting her but all I did was yell at her in front of everyone and I skipped school the rest of the day. 
I was not sure what to do, if I complained, I was afraid the guys would really call me gay because I did not enjoy what had happened to me. At the same time, I didn't think anyone would believe me as a guy accusing a girl of that, it's not very common, I figured the Principal would take it the wrong way that I was just causing trouble. 

Eventually I told my guidance counselor, and all that was done was the girl was told what she did was wrong and I had my class switched that she was in with me. 

Just recently I had told my Parents about it, even though this was over 8 years ago. They said charges could have been brought up, I couldn't believe how serious it was.

Mabye this might account for some of my SA?


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## GnR (Sep 25, 2009)

KennethJones said:


> Joinmartin, your optimistic views are true but understand that they are *exceptional* - meaning very rare. In my opinion what you are doing is comparable to telling homeless people to be hopeful because they could win the lottery one day. Sometimes we have to accept the fact that the optimistic viewpoint is so rare that it has no basis in reality.​
> As of now the pessimistic view is more based in reality than the optimistic view. *This is why depressed people tend to have such a strong grasp on reality. Their minds are not swayed by false hopes because they understand that their depression is also a reflection of the world as a whole. *​
> And like stranger said above, this is not about having a defeatist attitude. Once you accept reality then you will accept that the pessimistic view is more based in reality than the optimistic.​


First off, I agree that for many people depression/anxiety can sprout up as a reflection or internalization of the world's brokenness. But, in my opinion, what often occurs is that this depressed individual eventually transitions from the act of internalizing this brokenness to the act of _projecting_ these things onto all area's of life. I've been there (and still struggle), and that mentality is not even close to qualifying as "a strong grasp on reality". I would say the same about someone who is optimistic on an extreme level.

And to the OP, good for you for putting yourself out there. I would advise you to give yourself a pat on the back for just doing that in the first place (it doesn't sound like you really got a fair shot on that site anyway). Don't put so much pressure on youself; lacking relationship experience at 25 probably isn't as rare as you think. You put up an honest profile, and that takes balls. I'm guessing 99% of the people on that site wouldn't be willing to talk about their struggles up front like that. Have you really thought about that? That should make you feel good man; it speaks volumes about your character.

Don't give up on finding someone, but at the same time you might want to focus on what you want (and what your values are).

Edit: Just read your last post Keith, have you thought about talking to a therapist about this? That's serious stuff.


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## atticusfinch (Dec 18, 2010)

keithp said:


> In High School I was sexually assaulted by a girl in my grade. I must have been 14 or 15. She and a friend grabbed my testicles, hard to the point I was in severe pain, tryed to force a pencil up my ***, and her and another girl pulled down my pants in front of 200 or so classmates, nothing was done by anyone.
> This happened 2 or 3 times. I felt like hitting her but all I did was yell at her in front of everyone and I skipped school the rest of the day.
> I was not sure what to do, if I complained, I was afraid the guys would really call me gay because I did not enjoy what had happened to me. At the same time, I didn't think anyone would believe me as a guy accusing a girl of that, it's not very common, I figured the Principal would take it the wrong way that I was just causing trouble.
> 
> Eventually I told my guidance counselor, and all that was done was the girl was told what she did was wrong and I had my class switched that she was in with me.


That is just down-right cruel. ****, I know kids are mean and dumb around that age but that is ****ed up. It's like...who are you to do that to someone? I would really like to meet these two girls and really teach them a lesson. ****. I can't explain how much I'm in awe and disgusted of these people.

...I'm absolutely sorry that that happened to you. :bah


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

keithp said:


> I also forgot to mention something bad that happened to me in the past, why the only attention I got by a "straight" girl was a negative one. I'm not sure if this has to do with my situation, but it's worth mentioning.
> 
> In High School I was sexually assaulted by a girl in my grade. I must have been 14 or 15. She and a friend grabbed my testicles, hard to the point I was in severe pain, tryed to force a pencil up my ***, and her and another girl pulled down my pants in front of 200 or so classmates, nothing was done by anyone.
> This happened 2 or 3 times. I felt like hitting her but all I did was yell at her in front of everyone and I skipped school the rest of the day.
> ...


I believe this accounts for your SA around girls. I wouldn't give it a blanket statement, and say that it accounts for ALL SA, because you're able to talk to guys, right?


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

shynesshellasucks said:


> *So you find a shoe that fits and you expect to fit on everyone else?* That's like saying the English national football team should immediately hire Pele or Maradonna as Manager, so they can share their belief system upon the football players and win a World Cup after so many years. Or like telling Brad Pitt to give dating advice to 25+ year old virgin making him a pimp after many years.


No, I don't. Which is why I said repeatedly that my way of thinking is not better than anyone else's way of thinking. I have also stated repeatedly that the way that has worked for me would not necessarily work for anyone else. This is in stark contrast to the "accept my depressed view of the world as reality" stuff that I received from one or two other posters. Everyone is entitled to their views and ways of thinkings and to their beliefs, as I keep on saying in my posts. I am simply pointing out that sometimes, attitude and ways of thinking are powerful things in creating positive change in a person's life.

And for the record, hiring Pele as the new English football manager would be amazing and may well inspire new positive beliefs in the English players so that they could finally play at their club level and best in national matches.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

keithp said:


> I also forgot to mention something bad that happened to me in the past, why the only attention I got by a "straight" girl was a negative one. I'm not sure if this has to do with my situation, but it's worth mentioning.
> 
> In High School I was sexually assaulted by a girl in my grade. I must have been 14 or 15. She and a friend grabbed my testicles, hard to the point I was in severe pain, tryed to force a pencil up my ***, and her and another girl pulled down my pants in front of 200 or so classmates, nothing was done by anyone.
> This happened 2 or 3 times. I felt like hitting her but all I did was yell at her in front of everyone and I skipped school the rest of the day.
> ...


In as much as I have a professional opinion as a trainee, I seriously recommend you speak to a qualified professional/therapist about this as what you experienced was abuse. I mean, those girls behaved like nobody in their right minds would behave in a school environment or anywhere else. I mean, I didn't spend my school years randomly putting my hand down girls tops. Why? Because that would have been abuse. They touched you in intimate areas without your permission which makes it abuse. The fact that it happened more than once is even more disturbing. What was wrong with these people? In protection of your mental health, I strongly advise you to seek professional help over this issue. I also strongly advise- depending on your family situation which you obviously know better than me- that you be as open as possible about this situation with the people you love and trust as their support could really help.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

KennethJones6 said:


> As of now the pessimistic view is more based in reality than the optimistic view. This is why depressed people tend to have such a strong grasp on reality. Their minds are not swayed by false hopes because they understand that their depression is also a reflection of the world as a whole.


But you are still depressed....

Id rather have an "unrealistic" view of reality and be able to enjoy like than have a "realistic" one and be depressed, since afterall, living on this earth is all we have.


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## WalkingDisaster (Nov 27, 2010)

Your profile got an award, so someone liked it!


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## girlinwinter (Feb 19, 2011)

> Females have full control today over men in the dating scene and the relationship game. They have tons of guys approaching them and being interested in them while guys can go years through life without getting interest simply because why...why did this happen....because he's a guy and some invisible rule says he is supposed to be assertive? or be left out? so women are saying if you don't come to me then i could care less about you? and what about women who are anti-social? none of this stuff cripples them as much as it does a guy because women are able to get away with it and be passive.


Again - "females" "have tons of guys approaching them and being interested in them"?? You think that applies to all women? Isn't being expected to be "passive" a contradiction with "having full control"? And did it ever occur to you that for every (straight) female who gets into a relationship, there has to be a male that does the same?


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

OP, you're giving up way too soon. Wasn't it just a little over a month ago when you put up your profile? You said on your other okcupid thread that you had a couple of women express interest. What happened with that? Have you tried to make plans to meet up with anyone? Even if some of your good matches live an hour away, it could still be worth it to go on a date or two just for the experience.



girlinwinter said:


> Again - "females" "have tons of guys approaching them and being interested in them"?? You think that applies to all women?


I'm starting to think that when these guys make these kinds of generalizations, they're pretty much only referring to women that they would f-ck. It's like women who are sexually invisible and never approached (like some of us on SAS) don't even count as women.



girlinwinter said:


> And did it ever occur to you that for every (straight) female who gets into a relationship, there has to be a male that does the same?


All these guys must be confident, obvs.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

To be honest, I think your picture is good. I can say that you would be the type of dude I would go for if I were a girl.

(awkward silence)


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

emptybottle2 said:


> OP, you're giving up way too soon. Wasn't it just a little over a month ago when you put up your profile? You said on your other okcupid thread that you had a couple of women express interest. What happened with that? Have you tried to make plans to meet up with anyone? Even if some of your good matches live an hour away, it could still be worth it to go on a date or two just for the experience.
> 
> I'm starting to think that when these guys make these kinds of generalizations, they're pretty much only referring to women that they would f-ck. It's like women who are sexually invisible and never approached (like some of us on SAS) don't even count as women.
> 
> All these guys must be confident, obvs.


I'm referring to all.


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> I'm referring to all.


no offense but you wouldn't know since you admit to having no interactions with women, much less conversations with them about dating. you're just believing what you want to believe.


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## laura024 (Aug 11, 2006)

Why do these types of threads always have to turn into a battle of the sexes?


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

^ i didn't mean to derail it into that crap. apologies.


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## laura024 (Aug 11, 2006)

It's okay. I just noticed it happens a lot on this forum.


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## StevenGlansberg (Apr 1, 2009)

^See, it's the women that start everything!


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

emptybottle2 said:


> no offense but you wouldn't know since you admit to having no interactions with women, much less conversations with them about dating. you're just believing what you want to believe.


Well, guys need to be educated about how the system is against them. They need to realize it's not their entire fault, but women by default as well.


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## KennethJones (Jun 22, 2009)

emptybottle2 said:


> no offense but you wouldn't know since you admit to having no interactions with women, much less conversations with them about dating. you're just believing what you want to believe.


He doesn't need to have interaction to know. His own knowledge can come from observance as well as dealing with indirect rejection from the opposite sex.



laura024 said:


> Why do these types of threads always have to turn into a battle of the sexes?


Its not a "battle". Some of us are just politely correcting the misconceptions some have about gender roles and relationships.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> Well, guys need to be educated about how the system is against them. They need to realize it's not their entire fault, but women by default as well.


Why would guys automatically need to be educated about your belief system about the world, guys and women? How will it serve them to be taught about how you see the world?


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

KennethJones said:


> He doesn't need to have interaction to know. His own knowledge can come from observance as well as dealing with indirect rejection from the opposite sex.
> 
> Its not a "battle". Some of us are just politely correcting the misconceptions some have about gender roles and relationships.


If he has limited interaction with women then would it not be fair to say that his knowledge of what "the majority of women do or do not do" would be limited and without substance?

Yes, his own knowledge can come from observance, interpretation and experience. That's how most of us learn. But learning by those methods doesn't necessarily or automatically put one in touch with reality in general terms.

And what on earth is "indirect rejection"?

And you're not politely correcting any misconceptions. You're promoting your own ideas about things which you are entitled to have but are more than open to challenge and counter.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

If a guy has never recieved even a single shred of interest from females in his entire life, absolutely nothing, that's a perfect example of silent rejection.


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

joinmartin said:


> Why would guys automatically need to be educated about your belief system about the world, guys and women? How will it serve them to be taught about how you see the world?


To be fair, if all you've been in life is rejected and treated badly by one group, I can see how it's quite difficult, even impossible to simply just not have a horrible view of that group in general.

And even though I'm on the other side of the fence now, I have gone through 10+ years of my adolescent life before this of nothing but rejection.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> If a guy has never recieved even a single shred of interest from females in his entire life, absolutely nothing, that's a perfect example of silent rejection.


So, you assume you've never had any interest from women. And because of that you assume that all women have rejected you in some mass conspiracy? With love and respect, that kind of thinking is very similar to the thinking that inspires paranoia. For a start, you are not aware of what every other person thinks of you. It is perfectly possible that a woman has shown interest in you and you haven't noticed. Secondly, women are not obligated to pay attention to you or any other person or guy. It's not something you've been denied because we're not entitled to that in the first place. Alpha male or shy guy or whatever. Not entitled to it.

You seem to think that women are somehow silently rejecting you but you then claim women don't pay attention to you or show interest in you. Well, to reject someone, I have to know who they are. So, for a woman to reject you, she has to have paid attention or some interest in you. So none of this really makes sense, does it?


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Harpuia said:


> To be fair, if all you've been in life is rejected and treated badly by one group, I can see how it's quite difficult, even impossible to simply just not have a horrible view of that group in general.
> 
> And even though I'm on the other side of the fence now, I have gone through 10+ years of my adolescent life before this of nothing but rejection.


But we need to bring the perspective back to individuals here. If you are rejected by one women or ten women or twenty women that's individual women rejecting you for various, individual reasons (some of which could have nothing to do with you as an individual). That's not being rejected or treated badly by women as a whole or group.

I've been rejected by women. I've been treated badly by some women. I had one woman recently going around my home town making up vindictive lies about me (not the first guy she's done this to, which tells you something). It was deeply hurtful. But it was one person. Not women as a group.

Yeah, if you get a lot of rejections, you're going to generalise. That's how learning can work. But the generalisation isn't grounded in reality. All women were not treating you badly. Some women were.


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

As far as what happened in High School, I had opened up to my Parents so they are aware of it now, to say the least they were shocked and disgusted anyone could do that to me.
Eventually i'll have to talk to a doctor about it. 
I dont mind talking to Women actually after all this, and I still find women attractive. I just am less trusting now.

Back to okcupid. The girls who seemed interested never replied back after that first conversation. And the IM on okcupid doesnt work for me, it says they are offline when they are not. I sent everyone messages, no reply.
Each day I try to add new favorites, I take it upon myself to add 1 new girl a day I like, and message anyone online.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Harpuia said:


> C'mon, seriously? Anymore? I know how it feels like to be looked at the majority of girls in disdain. Even if I have a girlfriend now, I STILL know how it feels, because I STILL have to deal with it everyday. The only difference is I can see the girls for who they are, and know that if I ever dated them my life wouldn't be where it is today.


I don't know if you can relate to me and the thousands or millions of guys out there who haven't got out of it but if you did I'm glad. You did something many men won't be able to achieve. Not because of human biology, how both genders are wired, or societal pressure on men, but because the system is rigged.

How the system is rigged:

Women are the choosers. No way around this. Women decide if you get to have a relationship and lose your virginity.

Guy standards for majority:

Looks

Girl standards for majority:

Looks (most important)
Job (2nd)
social status
social skills (3rd)
social life (4th)
apartment
car
prior experience*

Guys desperate vs Girls desperate:

Guys only go by looks. If they can't get a girl that is attractive to them, they will look and settle for what's available.

Girls go by everything mentioned above. If a guy strikes out on any or all girls will reject him always. They won't settle for second best. Why would they when they are the choosers. Women don't marry or date down. They only look for equal or above. Men DO date and marry down. This is a common fact.

Guys have to do approaching and if they don't, they get ignored and no interest. Girls don't have to do approaching, and can have this to fall back on if they have anxiety issues or problems with socializing. Guys don't have anything to fall back on. Then you bring in the money issue. Since women are the ones who were once and still are the ones who don't work, they are programmed to look for the guy with the most secure finances. That's why most guys don't mind if a woman is broke and living with parents. But a woman, oh you're a guy and you are unemployed and live at home. No thanks. That's how it goes down the majority of the time. And why do looks matter to women? Because it's a way that men get weeded out. Women look for the best looking guys so they can only pass on the best genes. Ugly guys are just seen as unpopular and not good for much. This is also true for guys who have mental problems and other stuff like that. Gene weeding out. Lonely guys can get weeded out if not careful. KJ is right when he says guys can get weeded out easily. Because to women you are just another guy. Not women since once again they are the ones who have all the power and choice.

That is why guys have to realize that their problem with always getting rejected or having no success is not their fault.


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

I just know I'm talking with a girl right now who is going through the opposite of what you are mentioning stranger (that she is being 'chosen' or trying to from a cavalcade of girls, not the other way around), and she's a pretty attractive girl, to say the least. Not to mention smart, good personality, the perfect package. It's just kind of sad that no one has taken her yet. So not every girl, even attractive ones, can afford to be "choosers" as you claim.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Okay, long post.

*You did something many men won't be able to achieve. Not because of human biology, how both genders are wired, or societal pressure on men, but because the system is rigged.
*

You are not a martyr for a group of men. You do not speak for men in general. You speak for yourself. There is no evidence that many men won't automatically be able to achieve success with women so long as they remember that they actually have to take personal responsibility and work at it. It's not totally within their power. Circumstances have a role too. But there are loads of things a man can do to help himself.

*How the system is rigged:

Women are the choosers. No way around this. Women decide if you get to have a relationship and lose your virginity.*

There's loads of ways around this because it's a belief not a fact. Two people get to decide on a relationship. You can go up to a woman and create attraction. You can, as a man, be attractive in your general life so that women approach you and you decide which women you want to be with. All of those things are possible. There is no mass conspiracy of women plotting about whether you do or do not get in a relationship with them. They are not denying you anything.

*Guy standards for majority:

Looks*

How can you speak for what most guys standards are? Is not a little bit arrogant to assume that you can? Where's your evidence? I'm a guy and my standards go beyond looks. So do lots of other guys.

*Girl standards for majority:

Looks (most important)
Job (2nd)
social status
social skills (3rd)
social life (4th)
apartment
car
prior experience**

You refuse to answer how someone who has himself confessed to not interacting with a lot of women can have anywhere near enough data to come up with a list of what the majority of women's standards are. How do you know looks are most important for the majority of women when you've barely actually interacted with any women? I don't drive, I don't have an apartment, I don't have a job right now and I don't exactly look like a movie star. And yet I get dates. I get interest from women. I am not an exception.

*Guys desperate vs Girls desperate:

Guys only go by looks. If they can't get a girl that is attractive to them, they will look and settle for what's available.*

Speak for yourself. I'm not settling for anyone. I want a woman who is right for me.

*Girls go by everything mentioned above. If a guy strikes out on any or all girls will reject him always. They won't settle for second best. Why would they when they are the choosers. Women don't marry or date down. They only look for equal or above. Men DO date and marry down. This is a common fact.
*

If a guy strikes out on any or all girls will reject him always? You've barely interacted with any women so how do you know this? Women are individuals with individual likes and wants. They don't follow nonsense lists about what they find attractive. Again, no job, no car, no apartment and not movie star looks and yet I have interest from girls on a fairly regular basis. Can you explain why that is if your theories about these things are true? I'm not an exception.

There's little to no evidence to suggest that men marry down. I mean "down" would be a relative and subjective construct in the first place so difficult to measure. Whether you think a man or a woman married beneath them would be a matter of opinion and or prejudice not fact. And again, you say yourself you have not interacted with women. So where's all this coming from?

*Guys have to do approaching and if they don't, they get ignored and no interest.*

Not true at all. Time and time again on this forum guys who feel scared to approach talk of getting signs of interest from girls even though they didn't approach. Girls come up to guys. Girls ask guys out. Welcome to the 21st century. And even if guys did have to do the approaching...well...there's nothing stopping you, if you took some personal responsibility for the things you can control, getting to place where you can approach women.

*Girls don't have to do approaching, and can have this to fall back on if they have anxiety issues or problems with socializing.*

But the fact of the matter is a lot of women don't have tons of guys approaching them all the time. So, if they have anxiety issues or problems with socialising, how can they simply fall back on the belief that they don't have to approach? What good would that do?

*Guys don't have anything to fall back on.*

Yes, they do. It's called taking personal responsibility for the things you can control. Mate of mine who I get jealous of sometimes has girls coming up to him. He's not amazingly good looking or macho or anything like that. But he has security and confidence within himself that really works for him. And it is perfectly possible for guys to work on developing that attractive trait if they are not able to or think they are not able to approach.

*Then you bring in the money issue. Since women are the ones who were once and still are the ones who don't work, they are programmed to look for the guy with the most secure finances. That's why most guys don't mind if a woman is broke and living with parents. But a woman, oh you're a guy and you are unemployed and live at home. No thanks. 
*

With respect and love, did you find this belief in "Sexism for beginners volume 1"? Women don't work? Which century are you residing in these days? Programmed to look for the guy with the most secure finances? Why? When feminism and its allies have smashed through ridiculous persecution and prejudice shown towards women from the nonsense of original sin onwards to get to a point where women have the choice to go out and work or not instead of being held in the kitchen by a stereotype mixed with a special blend of ignorance.

I was living with my Mum and had no job and I still got dates. I've never seen a woman care about a guy's wallet or how much money they are making and I've interacted with lots of women. It may well happen but, as you keep saying, it's the majority that count.

*No thanks. That's how it goes down the majority of the time. *

No it isn't. And how do you know since, again, you claim to have not interacted with many women?

*And why do looks matter to women? Because it's a way that men get weeded out. Women look for the best looking guys so they can only pass on the best genes. Ugly guys are just seen as unpopular and not good for much. This is also true for guys who have mental problems and other stuff like that. Gene weeding out. Lonely guys can get weeded out if not careful.*

Ah yes, the secret conspiracy all women are involved in to create a society of models? Erm...what? Seriously, go look at my facebook page. You think I look like a model? I get dates, I get interest from girls and so do a lot of guys who look less than the Hollywood ideal would have you believe they should look. I had self hatred, depression, anxiety and a smashed to bits elbow. Still get interest from women. Lots of guys do too. What answers does your belief system have for real world examples that go a long way to pushing holes in it?

The only times in my life I've seen someone rejected for their looks, it's been a man doing it to a woman.

*KJ is right when he says guys can get weeded out easily. Because to women you are just another guy. Not women since once again they are the ones who have all the power and choice.*

No, the reason you don't have power or choice in your life is not because of some mass conspiracy of women. It's partly because of you. Circumstances have their power but you have power and control over lots of things and peddling this belief system-which you're entitled to have- is stopping you from making the changes that could make a difference. You can be attractive to women. You may already be. Trouble is, to discover that, you might have to drop this belief system. Or find a girl who believes her entire gender is involved in some sort of mass conspiracy to make everyone look like a model.

*That is why guys have to realize that their problem with always getting rejected or having no success is not their fault.*

I'm really sorry to have to say this but you have things in your life you can control and change to make a difference. Rejection is not always someone's fault. People get rejected for lots of reasons. But to assume that guys getting rejected a lot don't have some role in what's happening is bonkers. They can make changes. They can develop. They can become more confident in themselves. They can take personal responsibility for the parts of their lives they control.

The weird thing is, there's gonna be girls who will really dig you as a person. I've seen girls go bonkers for what Americans would call "nerds". Some girls have particular types they go for and there probably are some girls out there who like guys who think that women are trying to weed out guys who have proclaimed themselves losers (because the world didn't do that. You did.). But this belief system is stopping you from meeting and interacting with those girls.

Depends what you want though: to cling to this belief system that you're entitled to but isn't serving you or making you happy or take learnings from your past experiences, release them and move forward by taking personal responsibility for your life. Women are not obligated to be attracted to you. You're not being denied anything. But anger and hurt can sometimes convince you that you are being.


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## SilentWitness (Dec 27, 2009)

My 2 cents. Don't use 'lonely guy' in your nickname, in your profile, nowhere. It might be the truth but that's one you've got to keep to yourself. Not saying to lie, but don't put negatives.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> But we need to bring the perspective back to individuals here. If you are rejected by one women or ten women or twenty women that's individual women rejecting you for various, individual reasons (some of which could have nothing to do with you as an individual). That's not being rejected or treated badly by women as a whole or group.


joinmartin, what I think is that you are heavily emphasizing the numbers game. I think the numbers game can bring some results, but is it really worth it getting shot down by let's say a 100 women before finding "the right one"? Approaching 100 women might not even be enough; it might take even more than that. I'm thinking that Self Esteem would be shot dead at that point. The guys that are actually attractive and fit into most women's standards have success much more consistently, and they don't have to really approach women because they are attractive enough to hook up with acquaintances which makes it easier. I heard some PUA stories were guys would approach like 1000 women with little results and very low success rates.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

shynesshellasucks said:


> joinmartin, I think you are heavily emphasizing the numbers game. I think the numbers game can bring some results, but is it really worth it getting shot down by let's say a 100 women before finding "the right one"? Approaching 100 women might not even be enough; it might take even more than that. I'm thinking that Self Esteem would be shot dead at that point. The guys that are actually attractive and fit into most women's standards have success much more consistently, and they don't have to really approach women because they are attractive enough to hook up with acquaintances which makes it easier.


*joinmartin, I think you are heavily emphasizing the numbers game. I think the numbers game can bring some results, but is it really worth it getting shot down by let's say a 100 women before finding "the right one"? Approaching 100 women might not even be enough; it might take even more than that. I'm thinking that Self Esteem would be shot dead at that point.*

Finding the right person is not worth being rejected by 100 women? Really? Well, why are you looking for her in the first place then?

Self esteem would be dead after approaching and getting rejected by more than 100 women? Why? Again, comes down to what you make rejection mean. Because rejection could be about you and what you did or it might have nothing to do with you. For example, I tried chatting up this girl who turned out to be gay. Nothing I could have done was gonna make her attracted to me. She's gay and I'm not wearing the wig again.  But, if you constantly take every rejection you get and make it about you not being good enough, then yes, your self esteem gets shot to pieces. But that's a decision you made.

*The guys that are actually attractive and fit into most women's standards have success much more consistently, and they don't have to really approach women because they are attractive enough to hook up with acquaintances which makes it easier.*

Most women's standards? You see, the funny thing about that is that the whole "most women have this check list of standards" comes from guys assumptions about women not from women. I've seen girls date all kinds of guys without getting some list out and checking off standards. Girls have individual tastes. Guys have individual tastes. Both genders can have "types". An attractive guy is not someone who fits or tries to fit into "most women's standards". If you take that approach, that's people pleasing and approval seeking and it will mess with your head.

The guy who is attractive owns who he is. The "nerd" who got the girl got the girl because he thought of being a "nerd" not as something that held him back but as something that was attractive. He didn't need a woman to tell him he was okay as a person or to tell him what he enjoyed doing in his life was attractive. He made that choice.

Besides which, any guy who hooks up with friends or acquaintances still has to approach. It's just not a cold approach and it's probably harder than doing a cold approach because the dynamic is unclear: is she a friend? Does she know you enough to be comfortable around you? That kind of thing.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Here's one of the PUA guys I was talking about: http://www.rsdnation.com/node/147525


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

shynesshellasucks said:


> Here's one of the PUA guys I was talking about: http://www.rsdnation.com/node/147525


It's a very interesting forum discussion about some guy and some sticking points he has (I hate sounding like a pick up artist but that's basically what it is). Not sure he got helpful advice. Such is the nature of internet forums. Truth is, there's some good advice in that thread. Not well phrased but stuff the guy can take and adapt into how he approaches and his attitude.

Making the assumption that: I've been rejected by a number of women so women find me unattractive is basically like making the assumption:

I've argued with my parents and been told to go to my room. My parents don't love me and no parents ever will.

It's mass generalising based on some experiences. It's natural. It's how people learn. But the generalisation is not rooted in reality.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> Finding the right person is not worth being rejected by 100 women? Really? Well, why are you looking for her in the first place then?
> 
> Self esteem would be dead after approaching and getting rejected by more than 100 women? Why? Again, comes down to what you make rejection mean. Because rejection could be about you and what you did or it might have nothing to do with you. For example, I tried chatting up this girl who turned out to be gay. Nothing I could have done was gonna make her attracted to me. She's gay and I'm not wearing the wig again.  But, if you constantly take every rejection you get and make it about you not being good enough, then yes, your self esteem gets shot to pieces. But that's a decision you made.


I really wish getting over rejection was that easy but what I find is that it is not. There are many SAers that have the SA condition because of rejection. If the world was free of rejection perhaps there wouldn't even be SA at all. And not only SA guys but most guys fear rejection from women. Fearing rejection is a way to protect our self-esteem because there are many *******s in this world. Most guys, unless they are antisocial or completely delusional, that are free from fear of rejection are the ones that fit certain standards.



joinmartin said:


> Most women's standards? You see, the funny thing about that is that the whole "most women have this check list of standards" comes from guys assumptions about women not from women. I've seen girls date all kinds of guys without getting some list out and checking off standards. Girls have individual tastes. Guys have individual tastes. Both genders can have "types". An attractive guy is not someone who fits or tries to fit into "most women's standards". If you take that approach, that's people pleasing and approval seeking and it will mess with your head.
> 
> The guy who is attractive owns who he is. The "nerd" who got the girl got the girl because he thought of being a "nerd" not as something that held him back but as something that was attractive. He didn't need a woman to tell him he was okay as a person or to tell him what he enjoyed doing in his life was attractive. He made that choice.
> 
> Besides which, any guy who hooks up with friends or acquaintances still has to approach. It's just not a cold approach and it's probably harder than doing a cold approach because the dynamic is unclear: is she a friend? Does she know you enough to be comfortable around you? That kind of thing.


Sure some girls like nerds but it is rare. And most of the nerds that are attractive to women are like Bill Gates (meaning they have tons of money or have other things that really overcompensates for being a nerd.)

And yeah I know what cold approach is. And I bet I would have already nailed most of my female acquaintances if I was more attractive and didn't have SA. Simple as that.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*I really wish getting over rejection was that easy but what I find is that it is not. There are many SAers that have the SA condition because of rejection. If the world was free of rejection perhaps there wouldn't even be SA at all. And not only SA guys but most guys fear rejection from women. Fearing rejection is a way to protect our self-esteem because there are many *******s in this world. Most guys, unless they are antisocial or completely delusional, that are free from fear of rejection are the ones that fit certain standards. *

It may very well not be easy to get over rejection. But, if it's not, you might need to look at why it's not.

Lots of guys fear rejection from women. Lots of guys don't or have got to a place where they did but now they don't so much or don't anymore.

Yes, I get that fear of rejection is a way of protecting your self esteem. But you might want to look at the self esteem that protection device is protecting. If you never approach, you deny yourself the opportunity to get a good reaction from a girl. A new friend perhaps, a good person to chat to, a lover, a date whatever. You deny yourself all of those self esteem enhancing opportunities, don't you? So, basically, by fearing rejection to that extent, you're protecting a self esteem that has no way of growing. Not so much guarding it as keeping it prisoner. Where's the feeling of "yes, I was scared but I did it and overcome my fears"? You miss out, however the interaction goes, on that feeling of accomplishing something beyond your comfort zone. Is that really worth it?

One good way to get over the fear of rejection is to look at what you lose by not approaching. What would you miss out?

Overly protecting a self esteem that has no potential to grow and develop or become stronger could be said to be delusional thought in action. It's handing fear control of your life. Which is a far worse thing than being rejected by a woman.

It's not easy, it can be a slow process and different things work for different people. But it is possible.

*Sure some girls like nerds but it is rare. And most of the nerds that are attractive to women are like Bill Gates (meaning they have tons of money or have other things that really overcompensates for being a nerd.)*

Assumptions placed ontop of assumptions. It's only rare in your map of the world. It's not in mine. Not saying I'm more right than you are. Just that we have competing assumptions based on competing experiences and understandings.

Overcompensate for being nerd? Why would they need to do that? They're not apologising for who they are. Your belief system says: nerds aren't attractive and if they are then they must have other stuff that compensates for what I think is a bad thing.

Again, I'm not Tyler's biggest fan in the world but the line from the Blueprint is true: "maybe girls would prefer that you stopped living up to people's standards and owned who you are".

*And yeah I know what cold approach is. And I bet I would have already nailed most of my female acquaintances if I was more attractive and didn't have SA. Simple as that.
*

Okay then, become more attractive and get over your SA. If that's what it's gonna take to do that and you want to do that, do it. I'm not talking about "just do it". It's gonna be difficult and maybe a long process. But you can do that or at least get to a place close to it. It's possible. There are things you can change and things you can't. But none of those things you can't control stop you being attractive to women.

And you can start becoming more attractive by owning who you are as a person right now and become secure in that. So, yeah, it is as "simple as that" like you say.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> It may very well not be easy to get over rejection. But, if it's not, you might need to look at why it's not.
> 
> Lots of guys fear rejection from women. Lots of guys don't or have got to a place where they did but now they don't so much or don't anymore.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of this. Except that I think guys stop being fearful of rejection of women once they become successful with them. And I don't think it comes from accepting yourself but rather improving social skills or even other stuff girls value on to of it. For a physically unattractive guy social skills may not be enough.



joinmartin said:


> Assumptions placed ontop of assumptions. It's only rare in your map of the world. It's not in mine. Not saying I'm more right than you are. Just that we have competing assumptions based on competing experiences and understandings.
> 
> Overcompensate for being nerd? Why would they need to do that? They're not apologising for who they are. Your belief system says: nerds aren't attractive and if they are then they must have other stuff that compensates for what I think is a bad thing.
> 
> Again, I'm not Tyler's biggest fan in the world but the line from the Blueprint is true: "maybe girls would prefer that you stopped living up to people's standards and owned who you are".


I'm saying it would be rare in the sense that it will be similar to the PUA guy's story that I shared.



joinmartin said:


> And you can start becoming more attractive by owning who you are as a person right now and become secure in that. So, yeah, it is as "simple as that" like you say.


Nope sorry I don't agree with this. That's like saying you want to play in the English Premier League with no professional experience whatsoever. No matter how much you believe in yourself that you will be able to play in the Premiership and be on par with the players in it, you will not be successful unless you are good at it. Same thing with women. If you suck at attracting women you will suck no matter how much you believe in yourself(this is not a movie). Like a football player Self Improvement would have to take place. Being in better shape, being better off financially, being better looking, being cool, being more socially skilled, having the proper lifestyle, not being a nerd etc makes you attractive to women. Sure the nerd may try getting a girl but he would get shot down 1000 times while he's at it.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*I agree with a lot of this. Except that I think guys stop being fearful of rejection of women once they become successful with them. And I don't think it comes from accepting yourself but rather improving social skills or even other stuff girls value on to of it. For a physically unattractive guy social skills may not be enough.*

If you haven't accepted yourself or got a strong sense of self belief, how are you going to motivate yourself to improve your social skills? If you haven't got an acceptance of yourself as your are now or a strong sense of self worth and self belief, you'll probably end up responding to every set back you have while you're improving your social skills with an internal rant along the lines of: "see, I told you I wasn't good enough!"

Girls value lots of different things. Guys assumptions about some sort of universal standards that girls have is assumption based twaddle. It's doing the whole very human thing of looking at randomness and seeing patterns.

If you improve your social skills and other things for your benefit, great. If it's done because you've made some sweeping guesses about what all girls value and you're only doing it so that girls will like you...well...that's overly seeking validation from women. That's basically saying: "women, please tell me I'm good enough". And doing that doesn't exactly increase your attractiveness to anyone.

*I'm saying it would be rare in the sense that it will be similar to the PUA guy's story that I shared.*

I haven't read all of that thread. I don't have time right now. But to me, there's no evidence the guy is any kind of nerd. He's had some bad experiences, made some assumptions about himself but I'm not seeing any evidence he's a nerd. Mind you, you assume nerds aren't attractive so, in your mind, anyone who isn't attractive must be a nerd. Funny how beliefs connect things in the mind.

*Nope sorry I don't agree with this. That's like saying you want to play in the English Premier League with no professional experience whatsoever. No matter how much you believe in yourself that you will be able to play in the Premiership and be on par with the players in it, you will not be successful unless you are good at it.*

No, with respect, it's not like saying that at all. Look at the guys who play football in the English Premier League. Yeah, they got professional experience. And that was hard to get. But how did they respond to set backs? Did they start shouting: "see, I told you I wasn't good enough?" No, chances are they developed belief in themselves and kept practising, kept training, kept working towards their goals. In this football example, believing in yourself would be the start of things. The decision you make to propel yourself forward. To say, yes, if I work at this and train hard and develop my skills, I'm good enough to play in this league.

You won't be successful if you quit because you think you're not good enough. You won't be successful if you lack belief in yourself. You won't be successful if you respond to setbacks with: "see, I'm no good". That is the power of self belief. Skills come second. Self belief comes first. Without the belief, you're gonna get nowhere with the skills.

*Same thing with women. If you suck at attracting women you will suck no matter how much you believe in yourself(this is not a movie).*

Not true. What if the guy was unattractive to some women because he didn't appear to be secure in who he was? As an aside, whether a guy sucks or doesn't suck with women is an assumption not something sent down from on high in the form of a judgement.

If you believe in yourself, you trust yourself to go out and improve your skills. You respond better to setbacks. Rejection doesn't hurt as much. Indeed, a guy believing in himself could be the first big step he takes to actually attracting women.

However, if you believe you suck with women well...guess what, you probably will. Because you'll make sure you do. It's not gonna be all down to you. But you're gonna go out there and try and prove your belief right all the time and that can only be achieved by sucking when it comes to attracting women.

Now, I'm not saying any guy who is having trouble with women is doing it to themselves. But if you strongly believe you're not good enough, you will try to prove that belief right. Hence the power of the self image.

*Like a football player Self Improvement would have to take place. Being in better shape, being better off financially, being better looking, being cool, being more socially skilled, having the proper lifestyle, not being a nerd etc makes you attractive to women.*

Well, the first act of the self improvement process could be to develop a strong self belief, could it not?

And the footballer who wants to get in better shape but has this massive belief that he's not good enough to succeed will respond to a setback in his training by giving up, beating himself up and other bad stuff. You are determined to keep the belief that girls are only attracted to one type of guy alive. Despite the evidence out there in the real world that girls date all different sorts of guys.

If I showed you "nerds" with dates, you're head might well start shouting: "does not compute!" It's not in your map of reality for a nerd to be attractive. See the power of beliefs?

*Sure the nerd may try getting a girl but he would get shot down 1000 times while he's at it.*

And you know this, how? Because you believe it to be so? See the power beliefs have?

Fact of the matter is, you have no idea what would happen if a "nerd" tried to get a girl. But you have a belief about it. And that's a powerful thing.

Beliefs are powerful things. Question is, do yours help you and serve you or not?


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> If you haven't accepted yourself or got a strong sense of self belief, how are you going to motivate yourself to improve your social skills? If you haven't got an acceptance of yourself as your are now or a strong sense of self worth and self belief, you'll probably end up responding to every set back you have while you're improving your social skills with an internal rant along the lines of: "see, I told you I wasn't good enough!"
> ---
> Look at the guys who play football in the English Premier League. Yeah, they got professional experience. And that was hard to get. But how did they respond to set backs? Did they start shouting: "see, I told you I wasn't good enough?" No, chances are they developed belief in themselves and kept practising, kept training, kept working towards their goals. In this football example, believing in yourself would be the start of things. The decision you make to propel yourself forward. To say, yes, if I work at this and train hard and develop my skills, I'm good enough to play in this league.
> ----
> ...


I agree with the paragraphs quoted above. I don't really agree with the rest of the points. I think Self Improvement comes hand in hand with believing in yourself. I think both depend on each other.



joinmartin said:


> Not true. What if the guy was unattractive to some women because he didn't appear to be secure in who he was? As an aside, whether a guy sucks or doesn't suck with women is an assumption not something sent down from on high in the form of a judgement.


Going back to the EPL comparison again, if you are fat out of shape and never played football professionally you will get a good idea that you are not suited for the EPL. Same thing with women if you are not social enough or lack other things girls value you can get a good idea you are not good at attracting girls. (you need self improvement to fix this)

Not being secure of yourself is only a problem if you are blind and can't see that some women around you find you attractive.



joinmartin said:


> However, if you believe you suck with women well...guess what, you probably will. Because you'll make sure you do. It's not gonna be all down to you. But you're gonna go out there and try and prove your belief right all the time and that can only be achieved by sucking when it comes to attracting women.


It doesn't make a difference if someone is really unattractive to begin with. This is where self improvement needs to be done in order to be more attractive to women.


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

Sorry, but I don't believe in the whole individual thing. I do believe that there are in fact, certain types of guys who are more desirable to women, significantly more, than other types of guys. There are psychology and sociology studies around this based on ethnicity, career, and their sexual experiences. A person who has a desirable ethnicity, career path, interests, and shows some sort of "masculinity" and has more sexual experience will have magnitudes more of a chance of finding a girl (though not necessarily THE best one for them) than someone who has less desirable traits. You cannot deny facts.

That being said, even if the odds are against you, I think that it's worth a try to get back on the horse and try again. I personally feel that narrowing your search to the type of girl who is most comfortable for you, not necessarily the type of girl you like just because everyone else does, can give better results. The odds aren't always as bad as you think. 

To give you all an idea, I have, according to those same psychological/sociological studies, the least desirable traits to women almost ENTIRELY across the board (for example, if you are unemployed, your chances should be better than me right now), yet I'm now in a relationship to someone who matches me perfectly. If I was able to pull it off after everything that you guys have read in my story, I'm pretty sure you could pull your bootstraps together and give it one more shot. The difference between playing the odds in dating and in gambling is in gambling you only have a finite amount of money. In dating, you have a finite amount of time. Nobody ever died of rejection (suicide not included).


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*Sorry, but I don't believe in the whole individual thing. I do believe that there are in fact, certain types of guys who are more desirable to women, significantly more, than other types of guys. There are psychology and sociology studies around this based on ethnicity, career, and their sexual experiences. A person who has a desirable ethnicity, career path, interests, and shows some sort of "masculinity" and has more sexual experience will have magnitudes more of a chance of finding a girl (though not necessarily THE best one for them) than someone who has less desirable traits. You cannot deny facts.*

What facts? For a start, I have a qualification in sociology. And I know the research methods that are sometimes employed in that subject. My fellow students and I did a study. We faked the results. We ran out of time and so we chose to make stuff up. Now, not all studies do that but when it comes to studies, it's best to get yourself to place where you can respond by saying: "oh, that stuff it suggests is interesting" rather than being at place where you respond with: "this is how I should think about things...."

Okay, you want facts, here goes: women go out with men of various different races, creed and ethnicity. Given that fact, how can one ethnicity be said to be attractive and the others unattractive? Fact number two: women go out with men who have a variety of different interests. Given that fact, how can it be said that one interest or type of interest can be said to be attractive and the others not? Fact number 3: women go out with men who have lots of different jobs. So how is one job or career path more attractive than the others?

And Fact number 4: when women talk about "masculinity" they don't always mean the same thing as other women would mean when they talk about it. Indeed, one woman may mean different things to the woman she is talking to about masculinity. It's a relative, subjective term.

Fact Five: a girl doesn't know what your sexual experience is when she first meets you so how are you judged on it?

Fact six: a desirable ethnicity, career path, interests, sexual experience etc are all relative and subjective terms.

Fact seven: women are not, en masse, operating from some universally acknowledge and understood "list of standards" where one thing or one set of things are attractive and others aren't.

*That being said, even if the odds are against you, I think that it's worth a try to get back on the horse and try again. I personally feel that narrowing your search to the type of girl who is most comfortable for you, not necessarily the type of girl you like just because everyone else does, can give better results. The odds aren't always as bad as you think. *

But wait a second, here, I thought you said that girls all liked the same things and found the same things attractive? So, if that's true, how is narrowing you search to the type of girl who is more comfortable for you going to help matters? Surely she's going to be reading from the same "universal laws about girls standards for attractiveness" that all the other girls are reading from? Surely she wouldn't be interested in you but be waiting for that "guy all women apparently find attractive"?

Narrowing your approach to approaching the girls who you like and feel comfortable with would only work if the girl has her own types and individual desires and wants and individual, relative, subjective ideas about what she finds attractive.

*To give you all an idea, I have, according to those same psychological/sociological studies, the least desirable traits to women almost ENTIRELY across the board (for example, if you are unemployed, your chances should be better than me right now), yet I'm now in a relationship to someone who matches me perfectly.*

Seriously? A study tells you who you are as a person? Yeah, that might be where one of your biggest problems is rooted. The fact that some study can tell you who you are. A study doesn't tell you who you are. A study doesn't tell you how attractive you are. A study doesn't tell the girl how attractive you are. This is life not the science lab. You've made a bunch of assumptions about yourself based on some study. Nothing really real in that at all. Just guesses about you.

* If I was able to pull it off after everything that you guys have read in my story, I'm pretty sure you could pull your bootstraps together and give it one more shot. The difference between playing the odds in dating and in gambling is in gambling you only have a finite amount of money. In dating, you have a finite amount of time. Nobody ever died of rejection (suicide not included).*

Yeah, have you ever stopped and thought: I'm in a relationship so I must be attractive? Have you ever stopped and questioned that study that seems to be so in charge of your thinking? Chances are your girlfriend doesn't give two hoots about what some study says about you or how attractive you apparently are. A study doesn't define you or your attractiveness.


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## keithp (Mar 13, 2007)

D11 said:


> My 2 cents. Don't use 'lonely guy' in your nickname, in your profile, nowhere. It might be the truth but that's one you've got to keep to yourself. Not saying to lie, but don't put negatives.


There's one issue, you cant change your username. I would have to delete my account and start over. I answered over 1500 questions, and I dont feel like re-doing everything over again to be honest. There's other variations of lonelygirl and lonelyguy there and those accounts have awards so the name doesnt really mean anything as far as I can see.


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

Martin, I'm trying to tell them that despite the odds, there are people out there. I don't think it's universal that girls like one type over the other, but the odds are significantly favored for one end to the other. I'm just trying to say that unlike others on here who claim almost zero chance of finding a girl, they are a little more common than one would think. But I'm not going to just write off a sociology study from one of my friends' classes with a decent sample size on careers/desirability alongside a published study on ethnicity/desirability and say that it's all bunk.

What I CAN say is that there IS a chance, and unlike gambling, you can take as many chances as you are willing to give yourself.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

joinmartin, just because you and a certain percentage go by more besides looks doesn't mean much. males are programmed by default to go by looks. women are programmed by default to go by money, but with the aid of feminism, and today's societal importance on looks and good looking people on pedestals girls go by looks now as well. looks are #1 and of course money 2nd.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

stranger25 said:


> joinmartin, just because you and a certain percentage go by more besides looks doesn't mean much. males are programmed by default to go by looks. *women are programmed by default to go by money*, but with the aid of feminism, and today's societal importance on looks and good looking people on pedestals girls go by looks now as well. looks are #1 and of course money 2nd.


I just lost my tea all over my kb


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relationships/825583-bad-economy-no-girlfriend-greedy-people.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relationships/939514-women-all-about-money.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relationships/944307-scientific-proof-women-attracted-men-money.html

Notice how most of the women use the false argument that men only look for supermodels which is complete BS because again men settle and women don't.



> To the OP, it's called Hypergamy. Women are hard-wired to be attracted to alpha men, and historically speaking alphas are loaded. Think politicians, executives, and movie and rock stars. All alpha, all loaded.
> 
> Women aren't attracted to money or nice cars per se, but they cause women to be attracted to men because of how their brain interprets those things. In a similar example, men who are with hot women are seen as being more attractive then the same looking guy without a woman. All are just traits women pick up on and their brain use to automatically determine the attractiveness of a man.


http://www.city-data.com/forum/rela...d-completely-broke-unemployed-men-dating.html

http://www.peeranswers.com/forums/peer-eyiesto-support-a.html



> And to make things worse, a lot of women out there have the attitude that they don't even need guys anymore because they are "independent". Women now actually have more education and less unemployment than men do according to the statistics, so from their point of view, most guys have nothing to offer them. The only guys that women find attractive now are *the top 10% or 20% best looking/most athletic/funniest/richest guys*, and even if you are one of these guys and you get married, you risk having her divorce you and steal everything you worked for because she is "entitled" to it.


http://www.city-data.com/forum/relationships/1115771-do-you-think-theres-double-standard.html



> This is just a myth, some form of propaganda propagated by the second-grade men of society. Yeah, them who were too ar$ed to complete college, get a job, and have an iota of ambition, will power and inborn intelligence to succeed.
> 
> Coz when a man who does all of this, something they are incapable of, it always forces them to conclude it's all coz of the money. It's more of self-pity and some kind of victim mentality, breast beating and the like.
> 
> ...


That's why men will take some homeless woman who can have sex with him regardless of what she has going for her too right? Heh. The hipocrysy alone says enough.

http://www.prettyfedup.com/pfu/corporationssocietycurrentevents/menuglywomenpoor.htm

I'm glad there were a few guys brave enough to point out the hipocrisy. :sus Oh noooooooooo this isn't evidence. Just a bunch of threads on the internet. It doesn't prove anything11. :idea

"The myth of male power"






To add to what KennethJones was saying about pessimism being closest to reality. Dead on. To a PC mindset, everything I point out is just a "silly generalization". But it's not. People need to break free from PCness and start being realistic. Not positive. Not even negative. But realistic. Which, unfortanetly, seems to be more negative then positive. Some success and the point that exceptions exist holds no real weight to what happens the majority of the time.

exceptions - good for nothing, except more PCness, and false hope

majority - the truth, and what needs to be accepted, and the final answer


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## fingertips (Jan 11, 2009)

what majority? the majority of bitter misogynists who make rambling forum posts?

(yeah, that's right, i used the "m" word.)


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

No. What happens the most. What women do the most which is force men out of the dating game. With the help of the guys who suck up to them.


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## fingertips (Jan 11, 2009)

except, you know, there's nothing insurmountable stopping you from being *in* the dating game.

since you seem to know the FEMALE MIND (dun dun dun) so well, what's stopping you becoming this alpha wolf type that is supposedly so desirable?


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## BetaBoy90 (Jan 5, 2010)

I was programmed to pet zoo animals, and now I only have stubs for hands.


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## FadeToOne (Jan 27, 2011)

The thing is though, if you want to be in the "dating game", you want to be "attractive" to loads of girls, get many hookups, sleep around...then yeah, it's up to you to beat your fears and start asking random girls out. Whatever advantage girls may or may not have, if you want something, you have to work for it.

My problem, however, is that many fail to realize that not everyone wants to be part of this "dating game", and the reasons for that are not limited to fear of rejection. Yet society lumps all those who don't play its game in the "losers", "cowards" or "weirdos" category.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

FadeToOne said:


> if you want something, you have to work for it.


Yes. We guys do. But not women. If you're a female, just sit back, and wait for the plenty of guys who will approach you regardless of your looks or stats. You have all the choice. And you have society and everything else behind you. We guys are the competers. Who have all the societal pressures on our backs. The stereotypes. The real stigmas. We need the stats and the approval of being the alpha male type. Because women have everything rigged. So they want the cake and eat it too. That's what feminism is as well. Women have it rigged because they hold guys up to standards while men don't hold women to standards. Except for being female and looks. Nothing else matters.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

stranger25 said:


> Yes. We guys do. But not women. If you're a female, just sit back, and wait for the plenty of guys who will approach you regardless of your looks or stats. You have all the choice. And you have society and everything else behind you. We guys are the competers. Who have all the societal pressures on our backs. The stereotypes. The real stigmas. We need the stats and the approval of being the alpha male type. Because women have everything rigged. So they want the cake and eat it too. That's what feminism is as well. Women have it rigged because they hold guys up to standards while men don't hold women to standards. Except for being female and looks. Nothing else matters.


I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here, but don't you think you are a little obsessed over this whole thing? **** it, dude. That's the only answer. Let's say what you say is true: are you going to change it? No. Just be you and I'm sure things will work out.

This is all I see you post on here as of late. It's all wasted energy. Focus on other things, IMO.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

stranger25 said:


> To add to what KennethJones was saying about pessimism being closest to reality. Dead on. To a PC mindset, everything I point out is just a "silly generalization". But it's not. People need to break free from PCness and start being realistic. Not positive. Not even negative. But realistic. Which, unfortanetly, seems to be more negative then positive. Some success and the point that exceptions exist holds no real weight to what happens the majority of the time.
> 
> exceptions - good for nothing, except more PCness, and false hope
> 
> majority - the truth, and what needs to be accepted, and the final answer


Okay, congrats. Seems like you've discovered the "truth" that philosophers have debated for their entire lives.

Now the question is, what are going to do now that you know the whole "grand master plan" of those evil man-hating women?

Still live in fear of them or try to improve your condition by taking the necessary steps?

I bet the latter option just got harder now that you've impregnated your mind with those beliefs.

If that's your reality and how you choose to see the world, then I wish you good luck, cause you're gonna need a whole lot of it.


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## girlinwinter (Feb 19, 2011)

> Yes. We guys do. But not women. If you're a female, just sit back, and wait for the plenty of guys who will approach you regardless of your looks or stats. You have all the choice. And you have society and everything else behind you. We guys are the competers. Who have all the societal pressures on our backs. The stereotypes. The real stigmas.


Wtf? Thanks for discrediting my experience as a female who is not often "approached". Try living with an obvious physical disability and an abusive past before you talk about "stigma".

And yes, I have rejected a couple of people, but no one can force themselves to be attracted to someone, and I don't believe there's much point going into a relationship with someone you don't connect with (and that's first and foremost a mental connection, sharing the moral beliefs, etc. If you have that then physical attraction will follow, I find). Maybe if you didn't judge girls just by looks and actually went after a particular girl for who she is, rather than just any girl for the sake of having one, you'd be more likely to find a girlfriend? Where's the room for love in your notion of how relationships work?


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Harpuia said:


> Martin, I'm trying to tell them that despite the odds, there are people out there. I don't think it's universal that girls like one type over the other, but the odds are significantly favored for one end to the other. I'm just trying to say that unlike others on here who claim almost zero chance of finding a girl, they are a little more common than one would think. But I'm not going to just write off a sociology study from one of my friends' classes with a decent sample size on careers/desirability alongside a published study on ethnicity/desirability and say that it's all bunk.
> 
> What I CAN say is that there IS a chance, and unlike gambling, you can take as many chances as you are willing to give yourself.


Yes, indeed, forgive me, I can get quite passionate in debates. You do indeed have a very positive message to give out to people and I wasn't challenging that. I'm not going to agree with you about the odds being significantly favoured for anyone. The guy you think of as being more good looking that you is most likely worried about the guy he thinks is more good looking than he is. Insecurities have their power.

A study might not be bunk, but it's not necessarily the truth either. A sample size is a drop in the ocean compared to the fast moving, fluid, relative, subjective elements that exist in this world of ours.

So, yes, on some things we are going to disagree but I really like and respect your message and I'm glad you've found what you were looking for.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> joinmartin, just because you and a certain percentage go by more besides looks doesn't mean much. males are programmed by default to go by looks. women are programmed by default to go by money, but with the aid of feminism, and today's societal importance on looks and good looking people on pedestals girls go by looks now as well. looks are #1 and of course money 2nd.


First of all, I hope you don't mind me responding to this in instalments? You have, after all, directed me to your words on this. I had to stop being on this forum last night because I went out and met a group of girls. Actual girls. None of them cared about my wallet. None of them cared about my looks. Just my experiences but interesting nonetheless.

And, with respect, I have shown your beliefs and ideas respect whilst arguing against them. So, I'd appreciate it if you didn't dismiss what myself and a lot of males do as "not meaning much" just because it's a strong counter to your beliefs that you desire to dismiss as an exception so your beliefs will hold.

How many so called "jerks" or "douche bags" do you know with steady jobs? And yet there's an awful lot of stuff online about how women love the bad boy. If women are programmed by default to go by money then why would a woman be attracted to someone who didn't have a job? Because there's a lot of bad boy douche bags who end up sponging off their girlfriends?

Women go out with men who have jobs and men who don't. That's a fact.

I ask you again, how do you know any of this when you yourself claim to have not interacted with women or many women. Is this stuff someone has told you to believe? Stuff you've read online?

I'm no expert on women. I mean, seriously, I've no idea what a period is like or what childbirth is like or anything like that. But I have met, interacted with, dated, made love to, had sex with, been friends with and enjoyed the company of many women in my short little life. Doesn't make right and you wrong. Unlike you, I don't dismiss what I am and what I stand for as "not meaning much". But I base my ever shifting and evolving understandings on experiences with actual women. All women are different. But I've never met one who cared about my wallet. And, given that I'm not exactly amazingly good looking, you might want to ask yourself how it's possible for me to have done all that with women if they are programmed by society, feminism etc to go for looks and money.

You're entitled to your beliefs. And I know how easy it is to dismiss something that doesn't fit in with a belief system as some kind of fluke or exception to an imagined rule. But these exceptions are gonna keep coming. Real life examples are- unless you filter them out- gonna keep coming to counter your beliefs and it really is gonna come down to whether your beliefs serve and help you in life or don't.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*Right then*

*To the OP, it's called Hypergamy. Women are hard-wired to be attracted to alpha men, and historically speaking alphas are loaded. Think politicians, executives, and movie and rock stars. All alpha, all loaded.

Women aren't attracted to money or nice cars per se, but they cause women to be attracted to men because of how their brain interprets those things. In a similar example, men who are with hot women are seen as being more attractive then the same looking guy without a woman. All are just traits women pick up on and their brain use to automatically determine the attractiveness of a man.*

Okay, first of all, the idea the people on that forum are somehow experts on "the female brain" is laughable.

Secondly, if you actually talk to women about this then you discover in a lot of examples it's the power, talent, confidence etc and not the money that are the attractive things.

Thirdly, the person who wrote this is confused between women in general and something called "gold diggers".

Fourthly, the above post contradicts itself: first women are attracted to money. Then they're not.

Fifthly: sweeping nonsense thinking seems to be in play here a lot: George Clooney wears a red shirt. Women like George Clooney. Red Shirts are attractive to women. That kind of thinking.

*And to make things worse, a lot of women out there have the attitude that they don't even need guys anymore because they are "independent". Women now actually have more education and less unemployment than men do according to the statistics, so from their point of view, most guys have nothing to offer them.*

Twaddle upon twaddle. What statistics? More eduction then men? Where? Did university's suddenly stop admitting men? No, but for centuries a lot of them refused to admit women based solely on the sexism that educating women wasn't worth it.

Seriously, whoever wrote this needs to spend five minutes in Afghanistan or the Congo (where women are systematically raped, abused and excluded from things) and then comment on how women have more education then men and less unemployment. Another classic example of reading one bit of data and assuming knowledge of the real world.

Besides which, even if that were true, it's still an absolute nonsense to suggest that women would feel that guys had nothing to offer them because of it. Because women go for personality and a whole host of things besides money. That's why guys who are unemployed and not earning much get dates. Another fact of the real world.

*The only guys that women find attractive now are the top 10% or 20% best looking/most athletic/funniest/richest guys, and even if you are one of these guys and you get married, you risk having her divorce you and steal everything you worked for because she is "entitled" to it.*

Women only find the imagined, dreamed up 10% or 20% (because, when making stuff up it's best to give room to manoeuvre). And again, a post that contradicts a previous argument. Suddenly, funny guys are attractive?

Time and time again in the REAL WORLD, women go out with guys of all shapes and sizes. These are not exceptions. They are examples of the real world.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*That's why men will take some homeless woman who can have sex with him regardless of what she has going for her too right? Heh. The hipocrysy alone says enough.*

How many homeless women have you slept with? I've heard of daygame and street pick up but never really fancied picking up a homeless woman.

Erm, I could be wrong, but there's something tongue in cheek about that pretty fed up post:

*Good-looking men get laid. Constantly. All 12 of them currently on the planet can easily attest to this.*

*To add to what KennethJones was saying about pessimism being closest to reality. Dead on. To a PC mindset, everything I point out is just a "silly generalization". But it's not. People need to break free from PCness and start being realistic. Not positive. Not even negative. But realistic. Which, unfortanetly, seems to be more negative then positive. Some success and the point that exceptions exist holds no real weight to what happens the majority of the time. *

How exactly is realism more negative than positive? What you believe has merit because you have the choice what to believe and it is your learning. But those who can counter that belief system and provide real world examples and evidence that smash into it with a heck of a force cannot easily be dismissed as "politically correct". Particularly as, by your own admission, a lot of people with the opposite viewpoint have interacted with more women than you have.

Fact of the matter is, outside of your own life and perspective, you haven't got much of an idea what happens the majority of the time. That's not me saying that. You say it. You say a lot about how you've not interacted with lots of women. You've just made guesses about them and have some idea that the whole of womankind is engaged in some conspiracy to silently reject you.

Given that you, by your own admission, have no real clue about what happens the majority of the time, how can you cling to it as a support for your belief system? Exceptions number in hundreds. How many exceptions would it take for them not to be dismissed as exceptions?


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## FadeToOne (Jan 27, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> Yes. We guys do. But not women. If you're a female, just sit back, and wait for the plenty of guys who will approach you regardless of your looks or stats. You have all the choice. And you have society and everything else behind you. We guys are the competers. Who have all the societal pressures on our backs. The stereotypes. The real stigmas. We need the stats and the approval of being the alpha male type. Because women have everything rigged. So they want the cake and eat it too. That's what feminism is as well. Women have it rigged because they hold guys up to standards while men don't hold women to standards. Except for being female and looks. Nothing else matters.


well, I mean...that's how it works in the animal kingdom. The female just lies there looking pretty while the two males have to fight to the death. The bad side to do that is that yes, you have to do the pursuing. The good side is that you get to pick who you want to pursue - the female, even if she makes the choice, can usually only pick from the guys that go after her in the first place.

but again - what we are talking about here is the "dating game" in society. Not everyone wants to take part of it (both male and female), there are those who believe there are other, better ways to go about looking for a relationship (like getting to know someone first instead of hitting on random hot girls). If you want to play it, but currently lack the qualities to be successful, yes you got to work on that. But then you are the one choosing to be part of it.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> No. What happens the most. What women do the most which is force men out of the dating game. With the help of the guys who suck up to them.


Again, by your own admission, you have no idea what the majority of women do or do not do.

Force men out of the dating game with the help of guys who suck up to them? Nobody is forcing you out of anything apart from you.


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

*This thread is going nowhere.

Get it through you heads that you cannot generalize all women as being one way and all men except yourself as a certain way.*


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