# How to use ketamine as an antidepressant



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

This was posted on bluelight and i have permission from the guy to post it here, this is only for people that are treatment resistant, for them it can be a lifesaving option.

This is in the middle of being re-written, but should be perfectly useful as-is  - Jam, Nov. 22nd, 2010

This is a work in progress, and hopefully it will still be a work in progress after I die. I shall update every time I add something. This is a preliminary and very rough draft, and I expect every word to change by the time I am done editing it. The procedure, however, remains relatively constant, so you can take it from here. Please feel free to ask any questions or leave any comments you have in this thread.

The following document is the result of several requests from people both on and off BL to write up on the way I use Ketamine medicinally to cure my manic-depression (and yes, I am diagnosed with "Bipolar II with co-morbid Dysthemia and anxiety", in case you were wondering). I have been doing this for 4 years and nothing but good came out of it.

It is tragic that such a medicine remains illegal and largely stigmatized (even within the drug-using community).

DISCLAIMERS:

*a. I am neither a medical doctor nor a pharmacologist. My knowledge in either area is amateur at best. I am simply sharing something that has worked for me and a handful of others. Notice how the procedure is written in the first-person. This is for a reason. Therefore, if this doesn't work for you, or if you have doubts, or if you try it and screw up, then I'm sorry, but I am not responsible for that.

b. This is for the truly melancholic depressed people. If you're depressed because you haven't had sex in 2 weeks, then this guide is NOT for you. My point is: There are several types of depression, and there are several cures. This is not for someone who is simply feeling down. This guide is for those who truly suffer from an incurable depression that is out of their hands.

c. That said, over the years that I've been hammering this procedure out, many new people have tried it, and I heard nothing but praise for it. I literally have not received a single complaint yet. And while I am personally convinced of its safety at this point, please do keep in mind that research regarding safety is just starting to surface, and caution is still important.

NOTE that throughout this procedure it is assumed that one has no other drugs in one's system, including Cannabis. Nicotine seems to be acceptable.*

PART I: Science
_Full Bibliography available below._

*Recent Findings and Discussion:*

Read this thread for the latest research on the area as well as my notes which complement this procedure.

When I wrote the first draft of this document, interest in Ketamine's antidepressant action was just starting to break in to the scientific mainstream, even though a Glutamate-based model of depression had been in existence for a while. Dissociative Anaesthetics carry a huge stigma, and one can only be happy that this stigma is only just beginning to be outweighed by the possibilities presented with this theory.

Since then, especially over the last year, there has been an explosion of interest in Ketamine's antidepressant effects, generating a wholesome body of scientific literature that aims at this specific quality of Ketamine rather than discussing it as a side-topic.

My current, amateur, and personal opinion reflecting on these studies follows. Feel free to skip.

Ketamine is an extremely complex drug, pharmacologically-speaking. It has an immensely wide therapeutic window being active with as little as 5mg and as much as 2g while maintaining safety. Unlike most drugs which simply intensify in effect as the dose is raised, Ketamine seems to morph into what looks like several different drugs, depending on dosage. On the very high end, it acts as an anaesthetic, it is considered an essential medicine internationally, and its safety as an anaesthetic is established beyond all doubts by years of use on all kinds of animals, including human children. Just now, the scientific community is awakening to the effects of lower (several magnitudes in order) doses as possessing apparently miraculous antidepressant effects. Somewhere between contentment and anaesthesia is the realm of entheogenic experience - a property of Ketamine exploited by shamans, party-goers, and even recognized, if not used, by a few licensed therapists (e.g. Grof).

Of course, I will not be talking about anaesthetic use in this document. Nor will I be talking about Entheogenic/Psycholytic use of this medicine here, as this is a vast and wonderful subject to which justice cannot be done in a simple forum post. If interested, I refer you to Karl Jansen's authoritative classic, _Ketamine: Dreams and Realities_. This can be ordered from the MAPS website where proceeds can go for a good cause.

It is therefore conceivable that the antiquated neuropharmacological paradigm of trying to tie the effects of a drug or a psychiatric disorder to a single neurotransmitter, particularly in the case of melancholia, has long expired. It is time to look for something else that takes into account both big AND small phenomena, and arrive at an _emergent_ hypothesis that accounts for both itself and its constituents.

*Evidence for Safety in Antidepressant Use:*

RESULTS: Ketamine elicited minimal positive psychotic symptoms. Three patients experienced significant but transient dissociative symptoms. Side effects during and after each ketamine infusion were generally mild. The response criterion was met by nine patients after the first infusion as well as after the sixth infusion. The mean (SD) reduction in MADRS scores after the sixth infusion was 85% (12%). Postketamine, eight of nine patients relapsed, on average, 19 days after the sixth infusion (range 6 days-45 days). One patient remained antidepressant-free with minimal depressive symptoms for >3 months.

CONCLUSIONS: These pilot findings suggest feasibility of repeated-dose IV ketamine for the acute treatment of TRD.

aan het Rot M, Collins KA, Murrough JW, et al. Safety and efficacy of repeated-dose intravenous ketamine for treatment-resistant depression. Biol. Psychiatry. 2010;67(2):139-145..


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

*A nice summary of recent Findings:*

[nsfw][/nsfw]

Rao TS, Andrade C. Innovative approaches to treatment - refractory depression: The ketamine story. Indian J Psychiatry [serial online] 2010 [cited 2010 Nov 23];52:97-9. Available from: http://www.indianjpsychiatry.org/text.asp?2010/52/2/97/64573

[Full Article Available Free]

*A Few Examples of Recent Research:*

RESULTS: Subjects receiving ketamine showed *significant improvement in depression compared with subjects receiving placebo* within 110 minutes after injection, which remained significant throughout the following week. The effect size for the drug difference was very large (d = 1.46 [95% confidence interval, 0.91-2.01]) after 24 hours and moderate to large (d = 0.68 [95% confidence interval, 0.13-1.23]) after 1 week. Of the 17 subjects treated with ketamine, 71% met response and 29% met remission criteria the day following ketamine infusion. Thirty-five percent of subjects maintained response for at least 1 week.

CONCLUSIONS: Robust and rapid antidepressant effects resulted from a single intravenous dose of an N-methyl-D-aspartate antagonist; onset occurred within 2 hours postinfusion and continued to remain significant for 1 week.

Zarate CA, Singh JB, Carlson PJ, et al. A Randomized Trial of an N-methyl-D-aspartate Antagonist in Treatment-Resistant Major Depression. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2006;63(8):856-864.

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Depression is prevalent and undertreated in patients receiving hospice care. Standard antidepressants do not work rapidly or often enough to benefit most of these patients. Here, two cases are reported in which a single oral dose of ketamine provided rapid and moderately sustained symptom relief for both depression and anxiety. In addition, no adverse effects were noted. Further investigation with randomized, controlled clinical trials is necessary to firmly establish the effectiveness of oral ketamine for the treatment of depression and anxiety in patients receiving hospice care. *Ketamine may be a promising safe, effective, and cost-effective rapid treatment for depression and anxiety in this population.*

Irwin SA, Iglewicz A. Oral ketamine for the rapid treatment of depression and anxiety in patients receiving hospice care. J Palliat Med. 2010;13(7):903-908.

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RESULTS: *Suicidal ideation scores decreased significantly* on the SSI as well as on the suicide subscales of other rating instruments within 40 minutes; these decreases remained significant through the first 4 hours postinfusion (P < .001). Ten subjects (30%) had an SSI score ≥ 4 at baseline; all these scores dropped below 4 (9 dropped by 40 minutes and 1 by 80 minutes). For those patients with a starting score below 4 on the SSI, only 1 reached a score of 4. Depression, anxiety, and hopelessness were significantly improved at all time points (P < .001).

CONCLUSIONS: Suicidal ideation in the context of MDD improved within 40 minutes of a ketamine infusion and remained improved for up to 4 hours postinfusion. Future studies with ketamine in suicidal ideation are warranted due to the potential impact on public health.

Diazgranados N, Ibrahim LA, Brutsche NE, et al. Rapid resolution of suicidal ideation after a single infusion of an N-methyl-D-aspartate antagonist in patients with treatment-resistant major depressive disorder. J Clin Psychiatry. 2010. Available at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20673547 [Accessed November 23, 2010].

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There are scores more research, with more being added daily. I will be updating this and adding to it periodically, as with the bibliography.
PART II: My Procedure
This is still under construction, but should be useful as-is.

*Preliminaries:*

Below is a list of things that I personally use for this procedure. If you are unable to get one or any of the below things, I suppose you can use your eyeballs and intuition, and hope that your intuition doesn't want a buzz, but actually wants to heal.

What is recomended:
- A limited supply of the purest Ketamine one can get, in powder form.
- A "bumper" or bullet or any device that will give out a calculated dose.
- A mg scale.

EDIT: Actually the IM route seems to be ideal. If at all capable of obtaining sealed medical vials and know proper sterile IM technique, then by all means.

Even after all this is obtained, the most important part is SELF CONTROL. Setting a strict budget or getting a limited supply is a good way to do that. Precision in dosing does not seem too critical [Edit: Further experimentation revealed to me that the more precise the dosing, the better - and that an ideal dose is 12mg], as long as that saturation is attained and maintained (more on that later). The reason self-control is critical is so that therapeutic relief of the disease itself is attained rather than having its symptoms masked with a "K-hole." I will detail below a series of "checkpoints" that will tell you whether you are still on track or not.

Some notes: It is unfortunate that Ketamine does not work well rectally, and I am not rich enough to experiment with oral administrtion although I imagine it should work just as well. I don't know if IMing is a good idea, unless you enjoy looking like a pincushion! [EDIT: Further experimentation revealed that IM is perhaps the BEST method as it allows for a calculated dose] IVing is out of question, and I can only call it abuse. IMO, if this eventually turns out to be a legit medical practice, a controlled-release transdermal patch would be ideal. But for now, intranasal seems to be the most convenient method. I have attempted to make nasal sprayers but found them useless as the dose delivered per spray is very low and too much spraying leads to lots of drips and will indubitably form halos of crusty stuff around your nostrils...

About isomers: I have not worked with pure s-Ketamine or pure r-Ketamine, so I cannot speak for these. I have, however, worked with the racemate (most commonly available, and likely what you're getting) and another brand reported 8:2 ratio of s:r, respectively. The latter is the Ketamine I've been using therapeutically for the past 4 and a bit years, as it is much less tempting to abuse than the racemate, while the latter would be my personal choice for entheogenic or IV experiments.

EDIT: Recently the above has come to be questioned. I can say with certainty that most of what I used was Racemic. I also had the chance to try s-Ketamine since and found it to be *less* useful.

A note on dosing: I used to basically make my own bumps/lines and eyeball a dose. Since this is something that will be done several times daily for several days, measuring each dose individually is simply impractical. What happened is that I decided to just walk into a local headshop and buy a "bumper" - if you don't know what that is, it is a simple device designed to produce a consistent small dose out of a chamber containing a large amount of powder. I used the scale several times to figure out the average dose that this bumper will produce, and it was perfect: 10 - 20mg for each bump.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

*The actual procedure:*

It really doesn't matter how you decide to start. On some occasions, I'd take a recreational dose, and after that, work from there. Other times, I simply start with the smallest dose possible. The bottom line is that what is done in the first couple of days seems to be of little consequence to the regimen, as long as some amount of Ketamine is constantly supplied. (This is what leads me to believe that the desired effect is a result of some kind of receptor saturation).

Here is my own thought on this: A recreational dose for a start may allow for some introspection , or even just a bit of fun to take one's mind off things. The follow up would then be a maintained and controlled intake of small doses to achieve a very specific state (lets call it "a state of balance"), completely different from the usual effects of Ketamine.

Going back to what was said earlier, I say what happens in the first few days seems of little consequence because it has become apparent to me that this "state of balance" will simply not manifest until after a few days of constant use. So here is what I do:

After the initial dose, I wait until I feel completely sober, and I take my first dose (from here on, "dose" will mean 2 bumps, one in each nostril). I then wait an hour and take the dose again. If I feel I got too buzzed, I wait two hours until I redose. Don't worry - eventually one will only need 4 - 5 doses per day, but the beginning is always a tricky calibration between a buzz and "tuning in" to that state of balance. [EDIT: Later experimentation with precise dosing via IM showed that several tiny doses per day are more effective than a few big ones]. This first stage is the most difficult one, and one that admittedly resembles simple abuse and denial thereof, (but bear with me)... in fact it may cause negative side effects such as headache, ataxia, confusion, and even nausea (none of which should be too severe - if they are, you're abusing it!). All these effects should subside by the end of the second day (Edit: this is definitely consistent, I made two experiments since writing the first draft and reproduced this faithfully).

EDIT: In the two years following the writing of this document, I underwent this procedure many times, with a number of them using precise dosing via IM. All is still consistent, but I have noted that in some cases the nausea CAN be severe enough to cause vomiting, generally intensifying at the end of day 1, yet also consistent is the fact that as soon as it is purged, it goes and never returns, no matter how much you take or how long I take it for. The fact that I experienced this most severely when I was severely depressed suggests that it could very well be psychosomatic and that the purging is a cathartic experience.

This goes on until that state of balance is attained. It will become apparent after the fact that one feels clear-headed, motivated, content (note: content, not manic or euphoric) and completely sober and NORMAL (a word very rare in the world of bipolar people), and that those effects now seem independent of the exact moment one takes a new dose (you were that way, and you simply continue to be that way after you dose rather than experiencing a shift in consciousness). At that point, it seems like a certain saturation is attained, and this state of balance becomes one's new "baseline". It truly feels as though some switches have been switched off and a couple of new ones have been switched on.

And from here, one can dose less frequently per day. The trick is not to fall into the trap of trying to catch a buzz while maintaining this state - because you can, by simply taking a higher dose than usual. I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH. What is fascinating is that if I willingly decide to catch a buzz or even an entheogenic experience, when I return to baseline, my baseline will actually be that state of balance, not my bipolar "sobriety".

*I REPEAT: THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THIS WHOLE PROCEDURE IS RESISTING THE URGE TO GET HIGH.* Two years after writing this articles, I received nothing but good reports except from two people, and both admitted to having succumbed to abusing the drug by binging on recreational doses.

Another pointer that that state as been attained is that one can maintain it overnight while one sleeps without the need to wake up for a scheduled dose. One's sleeping patterns are no longer affected (as use of small doses of K can cause amphetamine-like stimulation), and one wakes up feeling fine, not hung-over, or manic, or depressed - just fine. Of course, a morning dose is definitely recommended to maintain that. How many times a day one must redose seems to be entirely dependent on one's brain chemistry. Eventually it always balances out.

Once that week is over (or the limited amount of Ketamine is depleted), this state of balance should remain for at least 2-3 weeks, assuming no other drugs were taken. I have no idea how this would turn out for the chronic cannabis smoker, since I do not partake in cannabis regularly.

One thing I recently discovered accidentally is that Gabapentin seems to "fortify" and maintain the state of balance for longer (it potentiates Ketamine for me anyway), but I'd have to try this again on my next regimen.

EDIT: Gabapentin was used in two regimens since the first draft was written, and has proven to be a fantastic tool in this regard. Gabapentin has become second only to Ketamine as a wonder-drug in my world.

EDIT2: I have absolutely no doubt that Gabapenin works wonders to "Rekindle" the effect. I have also found that using Hydergine concurrently with the procedure tends to enhance the effects.

*Some checkpoints to make sure you're on the right track*:

- By day 4, are you still stumbling when you walk, dizzy, slurring your speech, or getting any other clear symptoms of intoxication? If so, STOP! You've been abusing.

- By day 5, if you feel "loopy", then you're abusing.

- Panic Attack? While K is known to be a panic-free drug. Getting a panic attack as a direct result of taking K is, IME, a sign of having binged on very high doses. The best thing to do, IME, is if you've taken a high dose to taper down to a 10mg or so dose.

- Are you drinking more often, or taking more drugs than you used to? Another bad sign. I have found that the above procedure has an anti-addictive property, and I have actually used it to help myself quit benzos and codeine. I don't yet have enough info to make the claim that it definitely cures addiction, though.

- A seemingly universal (ie. from everyone that gave me feedback) effect of this procedure is that it makes one a _more pleasant_ person to deal with. If you've been getting complaints about some serious personality changes, then look back and make sure you're doing everything properly.

- By day 7, do you notice no improvement, despite having followed this procedure faithfully, calibrated your weights, and followed the checkpoints? Then perhaps this is simply not for you.

In conclusion, I sincerely hope this is helpful to you. If you have any questions, please post them in this thread.

PART III: Some Idiosyncrasies and Intrigues

My personal experience w.r.t. the method of action, without getting into biochemical jargon which I am simply not qualified enough to discuss, is as follows:

It appears that Ketamine interacts with two separate "systems" or "circuits" (nerve-related). One is excitatory, the other inhibitory (let as call them a and b). The body, in turn, _reacts_ as Ketamine wears off, with inhibitory and an excitatory _re_actions in the respective systems (let's call them x and y). It appears that this can be "harmonically" exploited by re-dosing the ketamine as these reactions start up such that Ketamine's inhibitory action (b) synergizes with excitatory _re_action (x), and Ketamine's excitatory action (a) synergizes with the body's inhibitory _reaction_ .

I am sorry if this is confusing, but it is the best I can articulate what my body is telling me.

Interestingly, while I have never had a particular interest in Chinese medicine, it appears that the Taoist model is more helpful in this particular instance: from my limited understanding, the Chinese posit that the body had active currents (Yin) and Passive ones (Yang), and that good health is obtained by balancing these two currents through a healthy lifestyle (cf. Chia).

My experience has repeatedly shown me that a successful Ketamine therapy course will, at its best, result not only in a sense of contentment and balance, but also a moment of clarity when the body feels absolutely at peace, as though a gentle wave of frothy, lukewarm (just right) water has washed upon it. Incidentally, much later, I realized that the Chinese use this very metaphor to explain the state of balanced health.

Does this prove the Chinese model correct? I have no idea. But here is to hoping Ketamine bridges the gap between Modern and Traditional medicines!

[More to be added]

PART IV: First-hand Accounts Feedback

[To Do]

PART V: Bibliography.

[To Do]

Update History:


November 22nd, 2008: Finally gave it a proofread (heh, about time), fleshed out some parts, and added several updates (some important) since the first draft.


November 20th, 2010: Updated with several edits. To be ironed out and rewritten soon.


November 22nd, 2010: 2 Year Anniversary!! Added entire new section (Part I), and edited typos out of Part II.
[/QUOTE]


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

mTOR-Dependent Synapse Formation Underlies the Rapid Antidepressant Effects of NMDA Antagonists
Nanxin Li, Boyoung Lee, Rong-Jian Liu, Mounira Banasr, Jason M. Dwyer, Masaaki Iwata, Xiao-Yuan Li, George Aghajanian and Ronald S. Duman*
+ Author Affiliations

Laboratory of Molecular Psychiatry, Center for Genes and Behavior, Departments of Psychiatry and Neurobiology, Yale University School of Medicine, 34 Park Street, New Haven, CT 06508, USA.
*To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: [email protected]
ABSTRACT

The rapid antidepressant response after ketamine administration in treatment-resistant depressed patients suggests a possible new approach for treating mood disorders compared to the weeks or months required for standard medications. However, the mechanisms underlying this action of ketamine [a glutamate N-methyl-D-aspartic acid (NMDA) receptor antagonist] have not been identified. We observed that ketamine rapidly activated the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) pathway, leading to increased synaptic signaling proteins and increased number and function of new spine synapses in the prefrontal cortex of rats. Moreover, blockade of mTOR signaling completely blocked ketamine induction of synaptogenesis and behavioral responses in models of depression. Our results demonstrate that these effects of ketamine are opposite to the synaptic deficits that result from exposure to stress and could contribute to the fast antidepressant actions of ketamine.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

I personally don't like the idea of any glutamate or nmda antagonist as an antidepressant. I think its bad long term and will effect memory and learning, although acutely it could be used as a reset for synaptogenesis.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> I personally don't like the idea of any glutamate or nmda antagonist as an antidepressant. I think its bad long term and will effect memory and learning, although acutely it could be used as a reset for synaptogenesis.


The idea here is to use it for several days and then benefit from the antidepressant for a few weeks.

Personally i dont see a problem with that and use MXE everyday, but i also want it for tolerance, i'm not much into cognitive enhancement and am not bothered by cognitive decline i wont even notice.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

yes so we both agree it is better in acute use.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Interesting. I can't see me ever having a chance to try it but I'll not rule it out entirely. Things are going pretty well at the moment for me on the depression front so I'm happy with my current regime for the time being at least.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

ugh1979 said:


> Interesting. I can't see me ever having a chance to try it but I'll not rule it out entirely. Things are going pretty well at the moment for me on the depression front so I'm happy with my current regime for the time being at least.


I'm sure this should work with methoxetamine too. But if your current regime works, there's not much reason to try it.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I'm sure this should work with methoxetamine too. But if your current regime works, there's not much reason to try it.


Yeah i'd try it with MXE if I was going to. If only to ensure the consistent strength of the dose, which is so varied with different batches of ket from my experience.


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## VagueResemblance (Apr 17, 2010)

Very interesting. I'm not in position to experiment just now, without a supply, but this is something I'll keep in mind..thanks for posting!


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Ok this sounds unbelievable.

Severely depressed patient achieved remission within hours from use of very low dose of ketamine. And the effects sustained for about a week.

This is beyond belief.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

If this treats my anhedonia/dysthimia

I will be over the moon 

Doing karate, taekwondo, yoga, kung fu at the same time


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

i would recommend buprenorphine/suboxone for treatment resistant depression before this, personally. For ketamine to work youd have to take it so rarely imo.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Yea i know suboxone is also used for treatment resistant depression and the results were also astonishing.

But this is entirely something else. Its like a reset button being hit on your brain.

Moreover the risk of addiction is higher with suboxone.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

The route of administration is tricky.

The dosing is even more tricky.

I don't know how im going to handle this.

This applies for both buprenorphine and ketamine.

Strictly talking about treating depression.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

burner00 said:


> The route of administration is tricky.
> 
> The dosing is even more tricky.
> 
> ...


Ketamine is much more complicated to deal with. It might induce some neurogenesis but thats not for sure a good thing, it could be in response to damage in fact. The whole premise between electroconvulsive therapy is to damage the brain so it starts secreting high levels of bdnf/ngf and other growth factors. Then you hope everything re-connects right. lol


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Dont you think using an opiate to treat depression is comparatively dangerous.

I mean the tolerance rapdily builds up lightning fast 

imagine u started with 0.2mg and next 2 days you are on 2mg...doesnt sound good to me.

Anyways i will give it a go at Ketamine.

Initial dose will be around 75mg.

and then i will ease the dose as soon i have reached the peace of enlightment.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

LOL.

Where the hell did ECT came from in the midst of Ketamine?

ECT is the last thing on my mind in terms of depression relief. It has nothing to do with mechanism of action of ketamine.

ketamine exerts its anti-depressant effect by 

blocking NMDA glutamate receptors (stronger than memantine)
inhibiting GABA interneurons
disinhibition of AMPA recepters
induction of mTOR 
 and finnaly synaptogenesis

all of which takes place in the prefrontal cortex.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

bben said:


> Ketamine is much more complicated to deal with. It might induce some neurogenesis but thats not for sure a good thing, it could be in response to damage in fact.


Does it mean that ketamine is effective as forced neurogenesis inducer on the level, on which it cause neurotoxicity (NAN)? As I understand, low doses were considered above...If the answer to the question is affirmative, one can risk to take semi-toxic doses of DXM, causing Olney's lesions to provoke restoring neurogenesis, and also hope that "everything re-connects right" :afr
And one more question: what is special about ketamine? Would be other NMDA-antagonist (MK-801, phencyclidine) effective? I saw an article, attributed antidepressant action of NMDA-antagonists to NR2B receptor subtype, that's why dextromethorphan (or actually its metabolite), more selective for the NR2A receptor, does not fit to this purpose. Don't know how it is related to neurogenesis issues, but there is a connection to 5HT1(a) receptor (sic!). 
And one more note: tianeptine do the similar thing, reversing stress-induced neurodegradation, and NMDA/AMPA glutamate receptors are also involved in its action. But i can't stack all this raw material in one consistent scheme... Hope someone more capable will give the explanation!


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## peaceandlove09 (Aug 10, 2010)

Obviously illegal street drugs have the ability to alleviate depression. The problem lies in a persons self control and not abusing the drug to "get high".

The reason I will never touch these drugs is because no matter how much self control i THINK i have, it all goes out the window when I have access to something that can make me feel really good. You are essentially fighting with your own brain. Your logical side says, i must not take more than is needed. YOur emotional side says, com'on take more, it feels gooood!

I also think articles from bluelight shouldn't be reposted on this forum. People could take this article at face value (even with the warning) and fuk themselves up.



crayzyMed said:


> Two years after writing this articles, I received nothing but good reports except from two people, and both admitted to having succumbed to abusing the drug by binging on recreational doses.


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## csrpj (Feb 24, 2010)

i couldn't the post on bluelight to see other comments there, can you post a link?

i really wonder if i can do this with MXE...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ketamine is neuroprotective in low doses not neurotoxic, at really high doses i think its been associated with olney's lessions, altough that was a bit controversial.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

peaceandlove09 said:


> Obviously illegal street drugs have the ability to alleviate depression. The problem lies in a persons self control and not abusing the drug to "get high".
> 
> The reason I will never touch these drugs is because no matter how much self control i THINK i have, it all goes out the window when I have access to something that can make me feel really good. You are essentially fighting with your own brain. Your logical side says, i must not take more than is needed. YOur emotional side says, com'on take more, it feels gooood!
> 
> I also think articles from bluelight shouldn't be reposted on this forum. People could take this article at face value (even with the warning) and fuk themselves up.


I beleive it actually is highly irresponsible to not spread this kind of information if it may help people, because you know, being suicidal is a bit worse then taking a substance wich only MAY make you addicted.

If treatment resistance wasnt an issue then you may be right (altough id still post it as it may be a alternative treatment with alot less side effects) however it is.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

bben said:


> I personally don't like the idea of any glutamate or nmda antagonist as an antidepressant. *I think its bad long term and will effect memory and learning,* although acutely it could be used as a reset for synaptogenesis.


I don't think hospice patients need to worry about the long-term, seeing how they're all going to be dead soon.

It also talked about ketamine's impact on greatly reducing suicidal ideation. It's hard to take seriously an argument about memory and learning when the other option is *DEATH*. Even if it's bad in the long run, at least it may provide a chance for there to be a long-run.


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## Unlimited00 (Feb 24, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> Ketamine is neuroprotective in low doses not neurotoxic, at really high doses i think its been associated with olney's lessions, altough that was a bit controversial.


If I remember correctly (and I might not be, but I'm pretty sure...), NMDA antagonists ARE neuroprotective BUT the problem is when they wear off the receptors are overly sensitive to the effects of glutamate, which can cause excitotoxicity and apoptosis of the cell.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

Unlimited00 said:


> If I remember correctly (and I might not be, but I'm pretty sure...), NMDA antagonists ARE neuroprotective BUT the problem is when they wear off the receptors are overly sensitive to the effects of glutamate, which can cause excitotoxicity and apoptosis of the cell.


Interesting note! Is it demonstrated for NMDA-receptors such phenomenon as up-regulation (due to exposure to antagonists)?


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## Unlimited00 (Feb 24, 2011)

Unfortunately I can't remember the specific mechanism of how the excitotoxicity occurs


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

There are two different things to discuss IMO. 
1) Acute excitotoxicity of high doses of NMDA-antagonists (Olney's lesions) that is explained (as far as i remember) by eneven suppression of different areas, thus overloading some of them and suppresion of GABA-ergic neurons, thus paradoxically disnhibiting neuronal activity in other areas. 
And it is not our case as CrazyMed states on safe/neuroprotective low ketamine doses...
2) Putative long-term NMDA-receptors upregulation due to antagonist exposure (worth investigating for all dxm/memantine/ketamine chronic users).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I have been taking low bumps of methoxetamine every 3 hours for the past 2 weeks and never noticed any tolerance going up so i find it unlikely that low doses would cause any rebound excitoxiticy (methoxetamine is simular to ketamine) unlike recreational use wich does cause a rapid tolerance, however its not clear wheter that causes any rebound toxiticy either. Depends wich what doses this occured and wheter lower doses have been tested too?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

broflovski said:


> Would be other NMDA-antagonist (MK-801, phencyclidine) effective?


I doubt it, memantine for example has shown effiacy in a small trial for depression, however the results are nowhere near those of ketamine, it also doesnt cause any lasting results after a single dose AFAIK.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Unlimited00 said:


> If I remember correctly (and I might not be, but I'm pretty sure...), NMDA antagonists ARE neuroprotective BUT the problem is when they wear off the receptors are overly sensitive to the effects of glutamate, which can cause excitotoxicity and apoptosis of the cell.


Looking at the anecdotal reports & literature, it doesn't seem that NMDA receptors are subject to much upregulation and associated physical dependence when blocked (at low-moderate doses anyway). Chasing high-dose dissociative hallucinations is another story. People have ended up snorting gram upon gram of ketamine on a daily basis to chase the experience, and destroyed their bladders in the process. Even though ket-heads tend to be totally disorganised and weird in the mind, there still isn't much physical dependence, if any, to speak of.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Time has begun lets start this journey. 

This is my first time ever using a recreational drug to treat a psychiatric disorder something which is seen as taboo and is highly unrecommended. 

But if you are basically treatment resistant and the time, energy and all those money you spent on medications therapy sessions all gone down the drain. You have to think out of the box. Like searching an unconventional way of treating it. 

So guys my search ends here Ketamine is one such 'magic' chemical that has tremendous potentional value of treating depression. Only in ultra low subanesthetic doses varying between 20-30mg. 

Right now i have 250mg pure ketamine hcl.

The first method of administration am going to try is taking it orally mixing it with an energy drink. Heard the taste of ketamine is puke inducing so energy drink will go nicely with it. The dosage will be 60mg taken out of 250mg after accurately measuring it from glass scale. 60mg is alright taking orally reduces its bioavailability and converts it into something around 30mg.

There it is 30mg of ketamine mixed in 250ml Red bull. 

Will report how it goes.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Cool mate, keep us updated.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Ok this 'keta bull' drink i drank a day ago switched a bulb inside me (other words: granted me a new life) for an hour n half but unfortunately effects faded away after that. F--king sucks. :x

however speaking of its the ani-depressant ability is just nothing short of amazing.

Describing it is useless. I have felt "pleasure" in _ages._ For e.g lets take birthday party i should have been cheerful, laughing, singing, giggling something ANYTHING but alas i showed ZERO emotions practically acted like a machine. I was wtf why are they so happy its just a goddamn birthday party. Get in and Get out. That was my job.

After keta now im animated. A Robot that is animated, cheerful, happy, talkative.

...looks like when people say ketamine reseted something in their brain...they really mean it literally.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Great news mate


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Someone asked the link, forgot to post it:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=372731


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## Unlimited00 (Feb 24, 2011)

euphoria said:


> Looking at the anecdotal reports & literature, it doesn't seem that NMDA receptors are subject to much upregulation and associated physical dependence when blocked (at low-moderate doses anyway). Chasing high-dose dissociative hallucinations is another story. People have ended up snorting gram upon gram of ketamine on a daily basis to chase the experience, and destroyed their bladders in the process. Even though ket-heads tend to be totally disorganised and weird in the mind, there still isn't much physical dependence, if any, to speak of.


I wasn't talking anIy long term thing even. It seemed that your brain reacts fairly rapidly to the antagonism and counters it in a way that when the receptors are free again they exert too much of an effect. It may not be that there is a huge up-regulation at NMDA, it may be that there could be rapid downregulation of factors that would inhibit endogenous NMDA agonists. Like I said, I wish I could find the articles on all this. I did a quick search but couldn't find them so take what I say with a grain of salt. I just remember reading something somewhere (and I have a pretty good memory for these things) along those lines a couple years ago.

I was more trying to put out a point of possible investigation that I remember reading if people were interested.


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## Unlimited00 (Feb 24, 2011)

burner00 said:


> Ok this 'keta bull' drink i drank a day ago switched a bulb inside me (other words: granted me a new life) for an hour n half but unfortunately effects faded away after that. F--king sucks. :x
> 
> however speaking of its the ani-depressant ability is just nothing short of amazing.
> 
> ...


Crazy! Definitely subscribing to this thread.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Today i tried a different route of administration and the effects are much much better than taking it orally. The effects are brighter. The effects prolonged quite a bit, the potent anti-depressant quality were present throughout the entire day. Which is bloody awesome news.

Although the 1st hour was a trip serious one. I wasn't able to sit still for one hour.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ketamine 'acts like magic drug on depression'

Studies have shown that depressed patients who have resisted all other treatments improve within hours after receiving ketamine.








This graphic from Yale University shows the regeneration of synaptic nerve connections in rats receiving ketamine, compared with a comparison 'control' group

And anecdotals confirm the same for methoxetamine.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Oh jesus, you guys are putting all types of chinese chemicals in my body. 

I am gonna order some MXE to substitute DXM. No hookups for keta.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> *Ketamine is a potent D2 agonist* so Methoxetamine could be a potent D2 receptor agonist as well. It seems fair to assume that I'm seeing great results because Methoxetamine simply replaced Pramipexole.
> 
> It comes down to whether those improvements would remain after quitting Methoxetamine or would DAWS crawl back on.


Ketamine a dopamine receptor agonist?

This cant be true, unless you mean it exerts it dopamine effects indirectly. I have yet to read anywhere about Keta being a D2 agonist.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

burner00 said:


> Ketamine a dopamine receptor agonist?
> 
> This cant be true, unless you mean it exerts it dopamine effects indirectly. I have yet to read anywhere about Keta being a D2 agonist.


Any updates?


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19391150





> It is concluded that phencyclidine and other psychostimulants and hallucinogens can stimulate dopamine D2 receptors at concentrations related to their behavioral actions.


I want to see a study where it specifically mentions that ketamine stimulates d2 receptors.

This study is entirely focusing on phencyclidine and concluded that other psychostimulants and hallucinogens _can_ stimulate dopamine d2 receptors. Which to me is not even partially convincing.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Any updates?


Yeah i have been on that nasal route of administration







for a week and clearly the effects has been astonishingly repetitive in the sense it completely dominates my anhedonia on daily basis even though am not doing it everyday because of its extremely fast tolerance and to keep addiction at bay.

I must say ketamine is one the greatest possession i have at the moment


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

burner00 said:


> Ketamine a dopamine receptor agonist?
> 
> This cant be true, unless you mean it exerts it dopamine effects indirectly. I have yet to read anywhere about Keta being a D2 agonist.


I rememeber I was a kind intrigued then saw Wiki stating for K as D2 agonist and dopamine reuptake inhibitor(!), the former effect supported by reference on that (really )"un-convincing" study. But I suspect I've found some more relevant: Dopamine receptor contribution to the action of PCP, LSD and ketamine psychotomimetics
May be there is a reason to edit Wiki in this point and set correct reference?


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

broflovski said:


> I rememeber I was a kind intrigued then saw Wiki stating for K as D2 agonist and dopamine reuptake inhibitor(!), the former effect supported by reference on that (really )"un-convincing" study. But I suspect I've found some more relevant: Dopamine receptor contribution to the action of PCP, LSD and ketamine psychotomimetics
> May be there is a reason to edit Wiki in this point and set correct reference?


Great find.

This study is sort of what i wanted to read. More to the point.

If what i have read is true and Ketamine does indeed reacts to d receptors then this is surely bad news eh?


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

burner00 said:


> Great find.
> 
> This study is sort of what i wanted to read. More to the point.
> 
> If what i have read is true and Ketamine does indeed reacts to d receptors then this is surely bad news eh?


May be bad for people susceptible to schizophrenia/psychosis, for the rest it more likely contributes to antidepressant action, doesn't it?


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

broflovski said:


> May be bad for people susceptible to schizophrenia/psychosis, for the rest it more likely contributes to antidepressant action, doesn't it?


I have read some dreadful stories regarding dopamine agonist where they proved to be more more harmful than favorable.

I agree it contributes to the antidepressant action but moreso in the short term, brain chemistry will get f--ked up in later stages.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

That wont be an issue with ketamine and analogues, if the dopamine agonism was very significant you would feel worse acutely.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> That wont be an issue with ketamine and analogues, if the dopamine agonism was very significant you would feel worse acutely.


So i can safely assume stimulation of d receptors are not the major contributor in anti-depressant effects of ketamine.


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## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

Does MXE shred up your bladder like ketamine, or is that only an issue for people who do lots of ket every day?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Duke of Prunes said:


> Does MXE shred up your bladder like ketamine, or is that only an issue for people who do lots of ket every day?


Thats only an issue for drug addicts not ppl that use it therapeutically.


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## lionlioncatcat (Dec 29, 2010)

Duke of Prunes said:


> Does MXE shred up your bladder like ketamine, or is that only an issue for people who do lots of ket every day?


MXE does not cause bladder problems like ket does.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Drug Boosts Growth Factor to Jumpstart Rapid Antidepressant Response

Little-known Enzyme Pivotal, Mouse Study Reveals

A study in mice has pinpointed a pivotal new player in triggering the rapid antidepressant response produced by ketamine. By deactivating a little-known enzyme, the drug takes the brakes off rapid synthesis of a key growth factor thought to lift depression, say NIMH-funded researchers.
"Other agents that work through this pathway and block the enzyme may also similarly induce anti-depressant-like effects and hold promise for development of new treatments," said Lisa Monteggia, Ph.D., of the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas.
Monteggia, Ege Kavalali, Ph.D., and colleagues reported their findings online June 15, 2011 in the journal Nature.
Unlike currently available antidepressants that take weeks to work, ketamine can lift mood within hours. Yet adverse side effects preclude it from becoming a practical treatment. So, researchers have been studying its mechanism of action, in hopes of developing safer alternatives that work the same way.
Earlier studies had shown that the growth factor, called brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), produces antidepressant-like effects. To find out if BDNF is involved in ketamine's action, the researchers gave the drug to mice genetically engineered to lack BDNF. Unlike in control mice, ketamine failed to produce a fast-acting antidepressant-like response in such BDNF knockout mice exposed to experimental situations that trigger depression-like behaviors. This and other tests confirmed that ketamine's rapid antidepressant effects depend on rapid synthesis of BDNF in the brain's memory center, or hippocampus.
The researchers determined that this happens so quickly - within 30 minutes - because it only requires the translation of BDNF mRNA into protein, rather than transcription, which involves new gene expression and takes much longer.
Ketamine achieves this boost in BDNF levels by first blocking a protein on neurons (brain cells) called the NMDA receptor. The Texas team discovered that this blockade, in turn, deactivates an enzyme called eukaryotic elongation factor 2 (eEF2) kinase, that restrains BDNF synthesis. So, ketamine (and presumably other agents that similarly turn off the enzyme) effectively takes the brakes off of this antidepressant mechanism.
"Selectively inhibiting the eEF2 kinase was sufficient to trigger a rapidly acting antidepressant response in control mice but not in mice lacking BDNF," explained Monteggia.
The researchers discovered that the boost in BDNF occurs while neurons are in their default mode - not doing anything in particular. But the cells continue communicating via a low level of background chatter, spontaneously releasing chemical messengers that bind to receptors. So, when ketamine blocks NMDA receptors, it prevents their naturally-occurring messenger chemical, glutamate, from binding to them.
"Interference with such spontaneous neurotransmission to trigger production of a protein represents a novel mode of drug action," Monteggia noted. "It may also hold clues to what goes awry in the brain in disorders like depression."
Although BDNF levels fall off sharply following the transient increase triggered by ketamine, she says evidence may also support a role for BDNF in the drug's longer-term antidepressant effects. The exact role of another enzyme implicated in ketamine's antidepressant action remains to be determined, in light of the new findings. Yale researchers reported last Fall that the drug triggered increased connections between neurons via effects on the enzyme, called mTOR.
"This discovery of a novel pathway involved in mediating fast-acting antidepressant action holds hope for development of new rapid-acting medications," said Monteggia.









When in their default state, neurons that mediate ketamine's action engage in the brain's equivalent of background chatter. They spontaneously spray out (orange) the chemical messenger glutamate (green circles), which binds to NMDA receptors (black ovals) on adjoining neurons. This activates the enzyme eEF2 kinase, which suppresses synthesis of BDNF, a growth factor that has antidepressant effects. Treatment with ketamine blocks the binding of the neurotransmitter to the receptors (blue dots on black ovals), which inactivates the enzyme, taking the brakes off translation of BDNF into protein. This jumpstarts a fast-acting antidepressant effect.
Source: Lisa Monteggia, Ph.D., University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Reference
NMDA receptor blockade at rest triggers rapid behavioural antidepressant responses. Autry AE, Adachi M, Nosyreva E, Na ES, Los MF, Cheng PF, Kavalali ET, Monteggia LM. Nature. 2011 Jun 15. doi: 10.1038/nature10130. [Epub ahead of print] PMID:21677641

NIMH · Drug Boosts Growth Factor to Jumpstart Rapid Antidepressant Response


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## ThirdEyeGrind (Feb 7, 2006)

I took Ketamine to totally escape life for a good 10 or 15 minutes. After it wore off, I was always soo damn tired.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

csrpj said:


> i couldn't the post on bluelight to see other comments there, can you post a link?
> 
> i really wonder if i can do this with MXE...


Same here
We managed (hubby and I) to order some MXe and it arrived without hassle :boogie
Crazymed? medline? do you know how effective this stuff is for Depression?
Also how is ketamine at treating bipolar/personality disorders? Would it have the potential to make my moods worse? because the stimulants like methylphenidate certainly made me feel like hell

I'm just curious, since ketamine is illegal to import here but MXE is not, how much MXE would one need to feel the same as someone taking ketamine?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ive used mxe daily in small bumps, be carefull you have to stay with small keybumps if you want to avoid tripping. I just took it orally, mxe doesnt need to snorted.

Ive read ketamine put 90% of patients in remission in some study's, so its highly effective. (i tought so il reread in case i was wrong, but it was a very high number for sure).

It wont give you a response like ritalin, but start very low.


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## borbiusle (Sep 26, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Ive used mxe daily in small bumps, be carefull you have to stay with small keybumps if you want to avoid tripping. I just took it orally, mxe doesnt need to snorted.
> 
> Ive read ketamine put 90% of patients in remission in some study's, so its highly effective. (i tought so il reread in case i was wrong, but it was a very high number for sure).
> 
> It wont give you a response like ritalin, but start very low.


I accidentally stumbled into MXE last week and my depression is 80% gone. I'm not a daily user and I'll admit I was reckless with it but somehow I came out fine in the end. I went overboard with it and used it twice (about 70-100mg per session mostly inhaled with a bit of oral) along with about 0.5mg of xanax spread over a 6 hour period and basically went into a super-relaxed state where I simply laid in bed and analyzed my entire life in a totally different headspace for about 12 hours. I was afraid my nervous system would get too "relaxed" and I might die or something so I periodically drank this stuff called "RedxDawn" that I bought from a headshop that's basically a 5-hour energy drink that makes you horny, which kept me from simply drifting off to sleep and made my experience much more memorable/pleasurable. Ended up watching a bunch of porn and facebooking/I'Ming random chicks alot which kept my mind "happy" and "euphoric" but YMMV.

It felt almost like being on psychedelics(my only psychedelic to date has been Ayahuasca) but it's more down to earth and I mostly ended up with waves of euphoria along with periodic awesome revelations about all the **** wrong I was doing in life and how to fix it. The visions were more like flashbacks of my life and letting go of past regrets, failures, and grudges along with a "video tutorial" that plays out in your mind on how to fix your problems. There really is no real "ego death" or sense of leaving reality, it's very "noob-friendly" and works to address whatever is bugging you inside instead of blasting you off into hyperspace like Ayahuasca. This stuff will knock you down flat though, it's best to do it in bed. You'll probably experience visual/auditory hallucinations but nothing that makes you go OMG with paranoia, it's all light-hearted and easy to digest

The only downside is that if you do enough of this stuff, not only will you trip, it's like being drunk 1000x, you WILL fall all over the damn place if you're not careful and the world ends up looking like snapshots if you try moving around. It's best to lay in bed and let the MXE work it's magic in your mind. Don't even think of driving a car or going to work, you're not going to hide the fact that you're ****ed up and will probably end up falling asleep randomly or falling over yourself.

In the end, my biggest gain was my sudden a renewed interest in life. I started playing guitar again, fixed like 10 things on my car, starting cooking HEALTHY meals again, had inner motivation to go work out hard and take my creatine/protein supps again, finally made an appointment with a counselor to address my SA, and actually talked to my neighbors like a normal human being for the first time ever. At work, I had 0 anxiety around my bosses and was able to recall vast amounts of information that I heard over comm and report it accurately to them (I multi-task and man the phones/radios/desk/speaker/etc. at my job, was horrible at it until after my MXE experience). Finally had the courage to tell 2 ****ty co-workers and 1 unsupportive boss to go **** themselves, and they backed down instantly and let me work in peace.

I deleted all of my depressing music which I find very damaging to my progress at staving off depression(Korn, Staind, Whiny Limp bizkit songs, and misc. bands/females with suicide/whining/depression/heartbreak type lyrics) replaced my "ratty t-shirts/holey jeans" wardrobe with nice collared shirts, slacks, gator shoes, and a few "clubbish" suits and noticed people treated me with a little more respect than usual(shallow of people, I know, but this **** works apparently). I also avoid sitting at home on the computer all day playing multiplayer games where 90% of the players whine on the microphone and replaced the video games with Podcasts with people like Joe Rogan, Tariq Nasheed, and anything positive but raw that I could find. If I find myself drifting back into video games, I mute all the players except my close friends to control the "vibe" of the game and make the **** fun for me.

I will be definitely using this stuff in the future to explore more of my mind but I am thus far very happy with the results and feel like the fog in my mind has been lifted and the invisible "weight" of depression no longers bogs me down. I'm happy with the MXE but I will research ketamine a bit, as the MXE side-effect of feeling ***-tired and beat up after a session of use is worrisome to me.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Wow great post, very informative thanks  
Good to know 

When you started reassessing and bettering your lifestyle like fixing your car, eating healthy seeking counseling was that after the MXE wore off? it would be good if it could do that and decrease the crippling depression 80% since most ADs only ever go up to 50-60% if that


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## borbiusle (Sep 26, 2009)

Arisa1536 said:


> Wow great post, very informative thanks
> Good to know
> 
> When you started reassessing and bettering your lifestyle like fixing your car, eating healthy seeking counseling was that after the MXE wore off? it would be good if it could do that and decrease the crippling depression 80% since most ADs only ever go up to 50-60% if that


After messing with this stuff, sadly,the effects were short-lived. It was more of a period of after-glow/mania if anything, not to say that the positive stuff I was doing was fake, but ultimately it didn't stick like I thought it would. It was fun while it lasted but a drug is a drug, nothing more. I spent the last few days reading around about people on other forums doing the stuff once every two days in tiny doses to keep the effect going but those threads always ended in said person stop posting completely or some addiction/withdrawal story due to increasing the dose to maintain the effects.

Edit: At best, one could use it like a medicine I imagine, a pick-me-up to get **** done. Cool thing about it is that there is no sense of being "high" at a low dose, just simply being content and having energy and drive to do whatever it is you want to do.


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## ThirdEyeGrind (Feb 7, 2006)

I once snorted a whole vile to myself in the span of a couple hours. I had no freakin' idea what was going on most the time. Me and a friend were driving around in a car (he was driving of course). I kept asking "is this my life?" I had thought that sitting there in the car with him had been my constant life. Ketamine is a VERY strong drug, and i wouldn't reccomend it to anyone for depression because it only lasts an hour at the most.


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## super (Sep 9, 2009)

if i could get this then i would try it. shame i cant though


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

borbiusle said:


> After messing with this stuff, sadly,the effects were short-lived. It was more of a period of after-glow/mania if anything, not to say that the positive stuff I was doing was fake, but ultimately it didn't stick like I thought it would. It was fun while it lasted but a drug is a drug, nothing more. I spent the last few days reading around about people on other forums doing the stuff once every two days in tiny doses to keep the effect going but those threads always ended in said person stop posting completely or some addiction/withdrawal story due to increasing the dose to maintain the effects.
> 
> Edit: At best, one could use it like a medicine I imagine, a pick-me-up to get **** done. Cool thing about it is that there is no sense of being "high" at a low dose, just simply being content and having energy and drive to do whatever it is you want to do.


Thanks for your advice and the post 
its been really informative and although we are both new to MXE. hubby and I we know not to get accustomed to it as it has the powerful sedative and antipsychotic effect to make it addictive. for me after taking 40mg of the stuff, it works like an atypical antipsychotic without the bad side effects like hunger, headache, stomach cramps and grogginess but it does make me feel very fuzzy and unaware of who i am and what i am....


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## softshock11 (Jan 9, 2011)

My experience with K have been amazing!!


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## firenx (Jul 5, 2011)

I have also had amazing antidepressant effects with ketamine but one major thing that i found helps is following a strict low carb diet for a while, give your body lots of nutrients plus fish oils b vitamins etc to work with! 

Have a look at your diet and see what you're really eating.. too much processed food?


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## Avenarius (Apr 10, 2012)

*bladder problems*



crayzyMed said:


> Thats only an issue for drug addicts not ppl that use it therapeutically.


Are you sure about that (that therapeutic ketamine use doesn't do harm to the urinary tract)? I haven't found any studies.

I'm concerned because bladder problems drove me off ssri's.


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## borntosuffer (Feb 7, 2009)

I found that dextromethorphan helped my so much with depression and anxiety. I don't know where to get Ket from but i will be ordering some MXE. Since they share the same NMDA properties i hope that this can help me even more. I will post a response when i get it. Hopefully this month.


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## baranok (Nov 17, 2011)

i found mxe pretty addictive, used it for 2 weeks nonstop, had to throw away few last mgs of baggie, using more than about dozen of mgs is also very spaced out feeling (but you feel damn fine just you look awful) but else its social stuff big time...also its pretty damn cheap


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## drspastic (Feb 12, 2013)

hi, just a note about your post http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/how-to-use-ketamine-as-an-antidepressant-114431/ now im not sure what parts you wrote and what are pasted but one thing glared out at me; ketamine is not active rectally. this is a huge myth and fact is that rectal admin is one of the best ways to safe and controlled doses of ketamine. the drug should be mixed with warm water in a small syringe (without needle!!!) insterted and either released totally, or in small stages over time. its good for the full range of dosage from milligrams to grams.


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## drspastic (Feb 12, 2013)

one big plus over im injection is the large rectal wall area to adsorb the drug. ketamine is safe but is corrosive and unless very diluted can cause tissue necrosis, so sites must be varied. a good thing to try and get is called a medijet trans-dermal infuser. baddies often have them in films. uses compressed gas to shoot the drug through the skin without a needle, brilliant for sub-recreational doses and rather painful if you set it to blast a full milliliter of solution. it also has a very acurate way to dial-a-dose. overall for long term use rectal causes less damage, hits almost as fast, and keeps a constant level in the blood for longer. you may also have heard of olneys lesions occurring in the brain from long term k use, usually far higher doses. the solution being tiny amounts of psilocybin every few months as a protective. its proven but not totally understood.


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## drspastic (Feb 12, 2013)

lastly i have to say there is a lot to be said from high dose ketamine therapy in many cases, eg. complex regional pain disorder, and severe psychosis. if it wasnt for idiot kneejerk anti drugs campaigners this would have done away with many cruel treatments (punishments) given to the ill such as ECT, lobotomy, and insulin coma. i hope one day the hippies will stop screwing things up for us by learning to KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT ABOUT HOW FUN DRUGS ARE  if governments thought drugs were horrible they would promote (tax) rather than ban.


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## yay (Dec 31, 2012)

Can you not take ketamine as a pill? 
And do psychiatrist hospitals have this stuff available? 
Does this mean that a doctor at a psychiatric hospital could put a depressed patient on ketamine if he wanted to or would this not even be allowed and he'd get in trouble?


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

yay said:


> Can you not take ketamine as a pill?
> And do psychiatrist hospitals have this stuff available?
> Does this mean that a doctor at a psychiatric hospital could put a depressed patient on ketamine if he wanted to or would this not even be allowed and he'd get in trouble?


No, ketamine orally is a bad idea. There _are_ actually doctors out there who are willing to give ketamine injections if all else has failed. Usually, they refer you to an anesthesiologist who is open to the idea (and who has most likely given injections to other patients as well), who will administer the shot. You sit around and wait for 2 hours so they can make sure you're okay, then send you on your way. You better have insurance, or it'll cost you an arm and a leg. Even with insurance, you'll have to go through a lot of crap before they'll pay for it.

Just print out the aforementioned studies on ketamine, especially the ones by Dr Duman from Yale Medical School. Show them you are educated on the matter, assess the risks together with them, etc. The issue of bladder and kidney damage will of course come up. Just say that the studies on those phenomena are dealing with addicts who do a gram or more a day (some even do up to 5 grams a day!). You're getting a ~50 mg injection once a week. That's seriously like nothing compared to the addicts' intake.

In other words, the addict taking 1g/day who has to worry about his bladder is taking >140x more ketamine than you in a week! Damage at such low levels is unlikely, although it might be helpful to do a CAT scan on the kidneys after a few months, just in case.

One more thing, also drive home the point that this is cutting edge medicine, a new revolution in the treatment of depression, and it's still in its early stages. Doctor's have egos too just like the rest of us. Make him realize that he will be a pioneer in the glorious, wonderful new future. He contributed to the knowledge on ketamine for depression, and was ahead of the curve in applying these techniques to helping his patients.


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## istayhome (Apr 4, 2012)

Robert Paulson said:


> One more thing, also drive home the point that this is cutting edge medicine, a new revolution in the treatment of depression, and it's still in its early stages. Doctor's have egos too just like the rest of us. Make him realize that he will be a pioneer in the glorious, wonderful new future. He contributed to the knowledge on ketamine for depression, and was ahead of the curve in applying these techniques to helping his patients.


this is some damn good advice yo.


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

Also, for those curious about MXE, it is so similar to ketamine that it seems likely that it too has an antidepressant effect. Of course, that's not 100% certain. For those wanting to try out MXE instead of getting ketamine injections from a doctor (which would be very expensive without good health insurance), I say give it a try!

MXE is more potent than ketamine, so maybe instead of a 0.5mg/kg dose like with ketamine, you could try ~0.2mg/kg and slowly titrate it up if it doesn't do the trick. I don't know of any research teams currently looking into MXE as a possible antidepressant, so don't count on any papers being published soon. For those that do try MXE, I urge you to share your results, whether positive or negative.

I tried it, and ketamine too, with no luck in either case. I'm diagnosed with treatment-resistant depression. My list includes SSRIs, SNRIs, mood stabilizers, atypical antipsychotics (abilify), DRIs (wellbutrin), and tetracyclics and tricyclics. I'm considering ECT starting in the summer, but still need to make up my mind.


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

istayhome said:


> this is some damn good advice yo.


Yep, making her feel like she's participating in a huge revolution, a pioneer in the upcoming ascension of mankind it very good. And I'm not being sarcastic or over exaggerating; this ketamine discovery really is HUGE, and the doctors already embracing it for their patients are literally saving lives.

The research done on it recently, especially by Duman et al, sheds some major light onto the workings of the brain. I can see this discovery leading the way to a breakthrough in treating addiction as well, a terrible disease that cripples so many lives. And of course there's also the connection between the NMDA system and schizophrenia--maybe the knowledge gained in this research will lead to better treatments there too? The future of the mental health field is very exciting indeed!

Anyway the biggest obstacle of course to getting your doc to give the a-ok for ketamine injections is making THEM feel safe. They don't want you to get the injections, then a week later your bladder explodes and you need an iron lung. Assure them that while ketamine is bad for the kidney and bladder, studies on the damage examine addicts. We're talking a whole different level of ketamine usage. The amount you'll be getting is like nothing to them. Nonetheless, you could suggest (if you have insurance) a monthly checkup on kidney and bladder function, just to make sure. This will be extremely reassuring to the doctor, whose "malpractice lawsuit calculation" will fall below threshold levels.

ah, one more thing, I didn't mention addiction. You won't get addicted from a measly ~35mg shot once a week. Come on, seriously


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## yay (Dec 31, 2012)

Robert Paulson said:


> No, ketamine orally is a bad idea. There _are_ actually doctors out there who are willing to give ketamine injections if all else has failed. Usually, they refer you to an anesthesiologist who is open to the idea (and who has most likely given injections to other patients as well), who will administer the shot. You sit around and wait for 2 hours so they can make sure you're okay, then send you on your way. You better have insurance, or it'll cost you an arm and a leg. Even with insurance, you'll have to go through a lot of crap before they'll pay for it.
> 
> Just print out the aforementioned studies on ketamine, especially the ones by Dr Duman from Yale Medical School. Show them you are educated on the matter, assess the risks together with them, etc. The issue of bladder and kidney damage will of course come up. Just say that the studies on those phenomena are dealing with addicts who do a gram or more a day (some even do up to 5 grams a day!). You're getting a ~50 mg injection once a week. That's seriously like nothing compared to the addicts' intake.


This means you need to get an injection every week continually? This sounds also pretty annoying.

And how much do 50mg ketamine cost? Is this stuff so expensive that you couldn't simply cover the costs on your own if the insurance refuses to pay?


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

yay said:


> This means you need to get an injection every week continually? This sounds also pretty annoying.
> 
> And how much do 50mg ketamine cost? Is this stuff so expensive that you couldn't simply cover the costs on your own if the insurance refuses to pay?


Let me put it this way. Each ~50mg injection will be charged at LEAST $200 a pop. Then you have to pay the anesthiologist, a specialist, and that's not cheap. Then, staying in a hospital room for 2 hours for them to watch you also piles on the costs. Honestly, out of pocket, my guess is about $2000 an injection. But, this is just a guess. I wouldn't count on it being any lower.

If in the rare case your GP/family doctor does the injections himself (instead of referring you to an anesthesiologist), it would definitely be cheaper because you don't have to deal with an anesthesiologist or waiting in a hospital room. You'd get to wait in some other room or his office or something. My uneducated guess is that this service would cost $1000 each time.

I doubt doctors would let you leave right away after the injection, even if you have a friend right there who can drive you home. They need to make sure you'll be okay and that you won't choke on your spit or anything. It seems like overkill when you consider that 30-50mg of ketamine have very minimal effects. Its honestly like a couple beers in terms of disorientation, that's it. But still, they want to avoid any possibility of a malpractice suit.

As I said earlier, this option is really only possible if you have insurance (or a million dollars stashed under your mattress). The cost of each injection will always be at least 4 digits. $xxxx

EDIT: My discussion on price was WAY OFF. See my post right below this one. Spoiler: it costs $10000-$50000 per injection. Insurance mandatory!


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

yay said:


> And how much do 50mg ketamine cost? Is this stuff so expensive that you couldn't simply cover the costs on your own if the insurance refuses to pay?


Another thing on the cost of ketamine: ketamine is usually used for animals. Vets by 1g vials of the stuff for somewhere around $50 each. That means that a 50mg dose would cost $2.50.

But no, the doctors need to use "human grade ketamine," which is manufactured by the exact same companies as veterinary ketamine. For just the 50mg shot, I estimate they would charge you $200, a huge price mark-up when compared to the veterinarian's price.

EDIT: here's something I found about ket injections for CRPS:


> The patient typically receives a dose of between 20 mg and 35 mg of Ketamine, (see the studies for exact dosages per hour, etc.). Costs vary depending on the hospital where it is performed. It can range from $10,000 to as much as $50,000 and up, depending on the Doctor, clinic, and/or hospital but typically average around $25,000. The costs are mostly due to the labor involved and the patients requirements to be closely monitored.


http://www.rsdhope.org/ketamine-and-crps.html
This is under the "LOW-DOSE KETAMINE INFUSION - IN-PATIENT ( AWAKE TECHNIQUE)" header. Yes, the exact same procedure for depression. $25,000 a week


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## yay (Dec 31, 2012)

loool 25.000 $ a week. This means ketamine is off the list now. 
If I got on this I'd worry that my insurance is sending a cleaner to my house to save the money.


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

There's always MXE, and of course ketamine is still an option if you self-administer it, but of course it's illegal. If you live in a party city like Madison, Seattle, Vancouver, you might be able to find someone locally who will sell it.

$30-40 is a good buy, but more realistically you'd probably have to pay $50-60 for a gram. Assuming a 50 mg dose, each gram contains 20 doses. That's only $3/dose if you buy it for $60 a gram. A 10-pack of syringes from Walmart for $1.10, a bottle of rubbing alcohol for $3, and bandaids for $2, and you're all set!

For only $66.10, you can have treatment for 20 weeks. In the medical industrial complex, 20 weeks of treatment at the hospital would cost $500,000 (half a million!), so you save yourself $499,933.90 by doing it yourself!


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## yay (Dec 31, 2012)

I wouldn't take illegal drugs way too risky.


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## istayhome (Apr 4, 2012)

yay said:


> I wouldn't take illegal drugs way too risky.


Ketamine is not illegal it has a long history of use, being a very SAFE anesthetic.

Methoxetamine is illegal in the EU, but not in the US.

So I don't know what you're even talking about go troll somewhere else yo.


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## yay (Dec 31, 2012)

Then maybe I should just get some kind of surgery and demand ketamine and when I wake up I'm all happy and depression free. That would be cool.
I could get calf implants.


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## chiaza (Aug 9, 2012)

You could just get a prescription from your doctor, not fill it, then order the ketamine frm Pakistan ($10 each ampoule 500mg/10ml)


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## yay (Dec 31, 2012)

Which sane person would order drugs online and even from a foreign country? Ever heard of fake meds?


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## chiaza (Aug 9, 2012)

yay said:


> Which sane person would order drugs online and even from a foreign country? Ever heard of fake meds?


You must try it, if it doesn't work then it's probably fake and you lost some small money, if it does work then you are very lucky. I can tell you I have ordered a lot of medication online and never received fakes, you must go by other people's reviews as well as common sense.


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## yay (Dec 31, 2012)

If you're lucky you won't get an effect from a fake drug. If you're not lucky you could as well get serious side effects cause you don't know what they put in there. It could have a smaller effect than the real drug, it could have a totally different effect and so on. Maybe the ritalin you were taking was also fake and this is why you felt nothing from 50mg. That happens when you buy drugs online.


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## chiaza (Aug 9, 2012)

yay said:


> If you're lucky you won't get an effect from a fake drug. If you're not lucky you could as well get serious side effects cause you don't know what they put in there. It could have a smaller effect than the real drug, it could have a totally different effect and so on. Maybe the ritalin you were taking was also fake and this is why you felt nothing from 50mg. That happens when you buy drugs online.


When I took 50mg I felt like I ruled the world for a few hours and then felt depressed and nauseous/headache after it ended, it seems real to me. It's ritalin which is made all over the world, it has a legitimate batch number and packaging, I am sure if I ordered Adderall or something it would be fake.


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## yay (Dec 31, 2012)

chiaza said:


> When I took 50mg I felt like I ruled the world for a few hours and then felt depressed and nauseous/headache after it ended, it seems real to me. It's ritalin which is made all over the world, it has a legitimate batch number and packaging, I am sure if I ordered Adderall or something it would be fake.


I am sure that those who fake meds are also capable of faking the packaging. 

They fake everything these days. They even fake airplane parts.

Of course it could also be that the ritalin was real and you've developed a high tolerance to stimulants.


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## 10PercentExtra (Nov 8, 2009)

Is it against forum rules to ask where people are obtaining MXE?

It's legal in the US, right?

I googled for where to buy, and a couple sites came up... they look a little dodgy, though.


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## werdiscv (Nov 1, 2011)

10PercentExtra said:


> Is it against forum rules to ask where people are obtaining MXE?
> 
> It's legal in the US, right?
> 
> I googled for where to buy, and a couple sites came up... they look a little dodgy, though.


It might be against the rules to straight up tell you a source so I won't. But I'll give you a hint:
If you find a source, go to safeorscam.com and look up the site on there. There will be reviews and a score system, if the site is used by anyone in the RC community.


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## 10PercentExtra (Nov 8, 2009)

werdiscv said:


> It might be against the rules to straight up tell you a source so I won't. But I'll give you a hint:
> If you find a source, go to safeorscam.com and look up the site on there. There will be reviews and a score system, if the site is used by anyone in the RC community.


thank you very much


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## OIFVet (Dec 20, 2013)

*Interest*

I'm hearing that this ketamine will really help with depression, I've been dealing with horrible depression and anxiety and haven't been able to sleep well in almost 5 years along with many other symptoms of PTSD. My doctors are useless and I'm exploring to try and find an alternative. Does anyone know where I can get a sample? Or somewhere legitimate to order from?


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## istayhome (Apr 4, 2012)

yeah, get it LEGITIMATELY prescribed then fill that prescription at a LEGITIMATE pharmacy.
Everyone on this forum who was prescribed Ketamine had no success anyway. Baby.


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## istayhome (Apr 4, 2012)

yeah, get it LEGITIMATELY prescribed then fill that prescription at a LEGITIMATE pharmacy.
Everyone on this forum who was prescribed Ketamine had no success anyway. Baby.


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## fryburger7 (Dec 30, 2013)

ketamine does not affect dopamine from what I have read(good) and it's probably the best drug for depression that the scientific community is working with(good)


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