# Two phases of stimulant effects: mood lift, followed by stimulation and anxiety



## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

This is probably obvious, so for that I apologise. I was just reading some threads about ADHD meds and got thinking about my experiences. The only powerful stimulants I can recall using were Ritalin, Wellbutrin and PEA (PEA I really wouldn't recommend). All caused a pretty brief mood lift (ranging from one hour to several), followed by a crash which included depression, racing heart, and anxiety. These increased with dose, and every re-dose made it so much more stimulating with only the original amount of mood lift. Those drugs felt really bad on my heart, like I was like running a marathon at rest.

Anyway, I was wondering why the mood lift is so elusive and short-lived. I've heard many people claim the mood lift phase is when their ADD / other problems are helped the most, and this is the case for myself as well. Obviously this phase can also be dangerously addictive and psychosis-producing. So back to the point, if Ritalin is close to equal on dopamine and noradrenaline transporters, why does the "good" effect fade so quickly and why does the stimulation dominate more and more with every subsequent dose? At this point you may be expecting an explanation, but I have no idea. I have a few guesses though, all probably wrong and based on flawed science, but nevertheless...

First guess: dopamine metabolism. Dopamine is a metabolic precursor to noradrenaline and adrenaline, via dopamine beta-hydroxylase. Perhaps the short-lived mood lift represents dopamine before it's metabolised to noradrenaline. Add this noradrenaline the noradrenaline-increasing effects on these drugs on the NAT, and after the metabolism you'd end up with stimulating (adrenergic) effects dominating, rather than at first when you have both mood lift (dopaminergic) and stimulating (adrenergic) effects in more of a balance. So at first, you have dopamine [from DRI] + noradrenaline [from NRI], but later you have noradrenaline [from dopamine metabolism] + noradrenaline [from NRI].

Second guess: some sort of feedback loop, like autoreceptors or w/e. SSRIs usually take weeks to work properly, probably at least in part due to autoreceptors. People say Wellbutrin's best effects on mood take weeks to appear, and Wellbutrin is an NDRI like Ritalin. Maybe this phenomenon (short mood lift, increasingly big stimulation) lessens after prolonged use of stims like Ritalin, anyone able to comment?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I've had this problem with ritalin.. Amphetamines are reported to not have this issue if i'm correct. Which i can personally confirm.

No idea what causes it tough.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

euphoria said:


> This is probably obvious, so for that I apologise. I was just reading some threads about ADHD meds and got thinking about my experiences. The only powerful stimulants I can recall using were Ritalin, Wellbutrin and PEA (PEA I really wouldn't recommend). All caused a pretty brief mood lift (ranging from one hour to several), followed by a crash which included depression, racing heart, and anxiety. These increased with dose, and every re-dose made it so much more stimulating with only the original amount of mood lift. Those drugs felt really bad on my heart, like I was like running a marathon at rest.
> 
> Anyway, I was wondering why the mood lift is so elusive and short-lived. I've heard many people claim the mood lift phase is when their ADD / other problems are helped the most, and I'd guess this'd be the case for myself as well. Obviously this phase is also dangerously addictive and psychosis-producing. So back to the point, if Ritalin is close to equal on dopamine and noradrenaline transporters, why does the "good" effect fade so quickly and why does the stimulation dominate more and more with every subsequent dose? At this point you may be expecting an explanation, but I have no idea. I have a few guesses though, all probably wrong and based on flawed science, but nevertheless...
> 
> ...


well i had this problem with Adderral, dexedrine, and Concerta...like the euphoria/mood lift lasts alot shorter than most people describe it to last, only a couple hours, like 3-5 hours for dexedrine, 2-3 hours for adderral, and about 5-7 hours for concerta (which wouldnt get altered by stomach acid content or metabolism, since its a REAL XR version, as compared to cheap XR formualtions, like adderral xr and dexedrine spnasules.

after it wears off, i am still stimulated for a really long time, this can last for 4-any amount of hours after the mood effects dissapear. mt appetite sometimes wont return to normal until more than 12 hours after the last dose..i also get really bad anxiety/depression/anhedonia/insomnia during this time period, and psychosis/paranoia surfaces slightly during this period.


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## Dangerous (Oct 21, 2009)

May, I ask why you still take the Dextro if it causes anxiety, insomia, and psychosis symptoms from it.

I stopped taking my adderal because of the good effects not lasting long followed by me feeling like utter **** and wanting to sleep the rest of it off, but couldn't because the insomnia it produces.

Yesterday though, I took a adderal because I was depressed and at the time I was willing to do anything because I been in a real bad state the entire week, but I was reminded why I dont take it, I stayed up the whole night and felt like swallowing about 10 xanax because thats how much of the stuff I need to take to get get sleep on it.

I didnt even get much of a mood lift. The only way I do really is if I take 40mg xr at once, and the side effect aren't worth it, at that dose my heart feel like it going to jump out my chest.

Adderall never really helped with my SA that much I can see where in some cases it may of but I dont want to ruin my day just for a couple hours of fun followed by hell. Actually Ritalin gave me better SA relief, even though it made me feel even more crackheadish that the addy, it didn't help I was doing it inter-nasally but that was the only way it worked for me, which is not surprisingly considering how the half life sucks orally.

You are right about Adderal XR not being a true XR, I once dropped a pill on the ground by where I was taking a shower, and I didn't have the shower curtain shut all the way shut and I found a pool of water with my addy almost 100% percent dissolved. 

If it will dissolve in a lil bit of water after 20 min, then I am almost positive it will dissolve in stomach acid quicker.


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

This sounds wishy washy, but could it be a homeostatic response to feeling too good for too long? I would think that too much euphoria isn't good for survival, so the brain may work to correct that. The NA boost is mostly peripherally acting, right? If so, its effects on the body (increased heart rate and blood pressure, etc.) pose no threat to survival (in fact, I would think it would enhance our survival skills, like the fight-or-flight response), so the brain wouldn't work to correct it. If this poorly constructed theory is anywhere near accurate, I still wouldn't have an explanation for what's chemically going on in the brain - I don't even which part of the brain would recognize the unfavorability of excess euphoria. Bleh, I dunno.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

With amphetamines the initial pleasure is a result of your dopamine stores being rapidly being released from the synaptic cleft. After a certain period of time the amount of dopamine in the synaptic cleft is used up and a lesser amount is being released. So its not feeling as good. 

That amount being used up doesnt effect norepinephrine which will still be rollin pretty hard. Dopamine is actually a precursor to norepinephrine.

Plus the body is constantly striving to maintain homeostatsis so your receptors are sensitizing themselves to maintain this. 

Stimulants more then twice a week is overkill in my opinion if you want to preserve the positive effects without jumping tolerance. Not to mention they can be neurotoxic fairly easily, especially in some people.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> well i had this problem with Adderral, dexedrine, and Concerta...like the euphoria/mood lift lasts alot shorter than most people describe it to last, only a couple hours, like 3-5 hours for dexedrine, 2-3 hours for adderral, and about 5-7 hours for concerta (which wouldnt get altered by stomach acid content or metabolism, since its a REAL XR version, as compared to cheap XR formualtions, like adderral xr and dexedrine spnasules.
> 
> after it wears off, i am still stimulated for a really long time, this can last for 4-any amount of hours after the mood effects dissapear. mt appetite sometimes wont return to normal until more than 12 hours after the last dose..i also get really bad anxiety/depression/anhedonia/insomnia during this time period, and psychosis/paranoia surfaces slightly during this period.


Dont you return to the normal feeling if you redose? I do have the same thing with amphetamines, but when i redose the original mood boost appears, unlike with ritalin where a redose only fuels the unpleasant stimulation.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

Dangerous said:


> May, I ask why you still take the Dextro if it causes anxiety, insomia, and psychosis symptoms from it.
> 
> I stopped taking my adderal because of the good effects not lasting long followed by me feeling like utter **** and wanting to sleep the rest of it off, but couldn't because the insomnia it produces.
> 
> ...


oh...cuzz i Also take it with a miniscule dose of Luvox, .5 mg K-pin, 5mg Memantine, and when my Agomel comes, that will even further reduce the agitation/anxiety, while enhancing the mood elevation.

I would never take Dex or Addy by itself,.....within 3 days, i would be near psychotic, and my OCD would be going insane, this happened on Adderral last summer, i couldnt stop it, but there were bugs everywhere, my SA was the worst it had ever been. it sucked.

the Luvox decreases the anxiety, OCD, and bad effects of the Dex, of course and the the Memantine (NMDA antagonist) slows/stops tolerance to Dex, and Memantine is also used to treat OCD. the K-pin doesnt need to be explained....the agomelatine is a 5ht2c antagonist, meaning that it enhances DA and NA release, while decreasing anxiety (potent, acute 5ht2c agonism results in panic attacks/severe anxiety in many people)


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## mark555666 (May 1, 2008)

Lol found this pic.
The upper pictures are from non smokers while the the bottom pictures are from smokers. The green and red colors show low levels of dopamine and the blue high levels.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2uqg67m.jpg 
No wonder 1.22 billion people smoke against stress

Ritalin should be combined with a benzo or SSRI or something. Natural supplements like magnesium and 5-htp also work a bit for me. It takes away the negative effects that euphorioa mentioned. Problem is I have to take more tranquilizers with it to make it work.

See this report: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74502 last post
xanax+ritalin = speedballing lol. This combination is probably very addictive.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> is that a scan of brain monamine oxidase B? so your right it would correlate with Dopamine level, it looks weird. but....that doesnt make sense that there would be that much of an increase in dopamine, im might just be really wrong.....ya i think your right.


It says at the bottem that blue marks the zones with a high concentration of dopamine and green and red for low concentrations.


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## jakeforpresident (Sep 27, 2009)

Man I had no idea anxiety could be that bad from stimulants. But they must really help if so many people take them.

Still, I might be better of with a selegiline, l-tyrosine, solian, wellbutrin combo with 40mg of Inderal to block some of the NA effects.

Or maybe I could get my doc to prescribe me an aromatase inhibitor, ha ha.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> • Vitamin B6 Occasionally, individuals taking amphetamines develop compulsive behavior and anxiety, even after the drug is discontinued. When this side effect occurred in an eight-year-old boy,7 supplementation with 200 mg vitamin B6 each day for one week followed by 100 mg daily, reduced the compulsive behavior and anxiety within three weeks. The symptoms were eliminated after a few months of treatment. Controlled research is needed to determine conclusively the usefulness of vitamin B6 supplementation for preventing and treating this side effect.6


http://www.naturalnews.com/DrugWatch_Adderall.html



> I do start to get paranoid from time to time. I have been on XR for about 5 months and when it first started to happen, I didn't know what to do. I came across good information on vitamins and supplements on this forum. I found this article very enlightening.
> 
> http://www.naturalnews.com/DrugWatch_Adderall.html
> 
> It states that anxiety and being paranoid can be solved with the use of Vitamin B6. B6 tabs you get in the supermarket don't absorb well. I have to P5P which is the active state of B6. It is much better and I can feel the difference. I started taking a B complex at night with 200mg of B6. This fixed things after 2 days... after a couple of months, once in awhile, I'd still feel anxiety and paranoia during the next day... I figured I should change when I take b6. Now I take P5P 100mgs when I start feeling paranoid. This has solve everything. Vitamins are very important when taking adderall because they put such a toll on your brain and body. Check out the article and see if you can take anything away from it.


http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61778&highlight=paranoia+P5P


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Freesix88 said:


> See this report: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74502 last post
> xanax+ritalin = speedballing lol. This combination is probably very addictive.


Very addictive, I agree. Not particularly pleasant in the end, either.



jakeforpresident said:


> Man I had no idea anxiety could be that bad from stimulants. But they must really help if so many people take them.
> 
> Still, I might be better of with a selegiline, l-tyrosine, solian, wellbutrin combo with 40mg of Inderal to block some of the NA effects.


What dosages are you gonna use for those? Even 2 of those could probably kill you, be careful man. Also, beta blockers aren't used in cocaine overdose because they don't block the alpha-1 adrenergic receptor (or something like that) and the coke remains keeping up BP via the a1 receptor -- your cocktail will produce stimulant effects (albeit weaker), so I assume a similar contraindication would apply here.


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## Thomas Paine (Mar 29, 2008)

Back in the day, I was taught not to mess with the euphoric phase of powerful stimulants, but once you start coming down and the anxiety part kicks in, you could get through it much easier by taking a downer and letting it happen instead of taking more speed. If you took more speed after you started crashing, you were just asking to be strung out and paranoid for a couple days.

I don't know if this helps or applies to the stimulants you're talking about though.

I've never really understood how it works to take prescription amphetamines on a daily basis and still get decent sleep and not crash eventually. Seems to almost defy logic, but I guess there's something I'm missing.


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## mark555666 (May 1, 2008)

euphoria said:


> Second guess: some sort of feedback loop, like autoreceptors or w/e. SSRIs usually take weeks to work properly, probably at least in part due to autoreceptors. People say Wellbutrin's best effects on mood take weeks to appear, and Wellbutrin is an NDRI like Ritalin. Maybe this phenomenon (short mood lift, increasingly big stimulation) lessens after prolonged use of stims like Ritalin, anyone able to comment?


First of all nice post. Good to see you back.

I like your theory that the excessive stimulation dissapears afters redosing for a while.
Then the good dopamergic works longer without and the bad noradrenaline effects should lessen.
Also try not to take more than 10 mg at once but redose every 2-3 hours.


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## mark555666 (May 1, 2008)

korey said:


> This sounds wishy washy, but could it be a homeostatic response to feeling too good for too long? I would think that too much euphoria isn't good for survival, so the brain may work to correct that. The NA boost is mostly peripherally acting, right? If so, its effects on the body (increased heart rate and blood pressure, etc.) pose no threat to survival (in fact, I would think it would enhance our survival skills, like the fight-or-flight response), so the brain wouldn't work to correct it. If this poorly constructed theory is anywhere near accurate, I still wouldn't have an explanation for what's chemically going on in the brain - I don't even which part of the brain would recognize the unfavorability of excess euphoria. Bleh, I dunno.


Wow I agree.
I read that people with low dopamine faster abuse drugs and stuff. So people with higher dopamine levels 24/7 do not enjoy them as much because if they take for example a drug that enhances dopamine there is less contrast than people with low dopamine levels so there is less euphoria. Living with euphoria is not good for survival obviously so the brain adapts. The pressure of our society is causing anxiety, and the only way to get rid of it (adrenaline) is exercise. I know drugs like beta blockers also work but that not really healthy I guess.
My theory is that you cannot live with euphoria 24/7 because the euphoria becomes 'normal' after a while. Sorry for my poorly constructed sentences.


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