# Where we born for a reason?



## redbrand12

I'm an atheist and was just wondering why are we born if there's nothing else after death? I'm starting to believe that we're born for a reason. A reason that I can't explain nor come close to understanding. Why would we be born if our only purpose in this life is to die? That doesn't make any sense to me. Please share your opinion so that this can make sense to me.


----------



## dannyanton

Yogis and Buddhists would say we're born only to realize our true nature


----------



## BadGirl

redbrand12 said:


> I'm an atheist and was just wondering why are we born if there's nothing else after death? I'm starting to believe that we're born for a reason. A reason that I can't explain nor come close to understanding. Why would we be born if our only purpose in this life is to die? That doesn't make any sense to me. Please share your opinion so that this can make sense to me.


Very good questions - I would recommend posting this in the spiritual support forum.


----------



## eukz

Yes. You were born to give your life a reason.


----------



## nubly

You were born because either your parents wanted a child, used faulty contraceptive or were careless.


----------



## Noca

nubly said:


> You were born because either your parents wanted a child, used faulty contraceptive or were careless.


^ This.


----------



## inerameia

I think we might be born to evolve, possibly into a higher power.


----------



## dannyanton

nubly said:


> You were born because either your parents wanted a child, used faulty contraceptive or were careless.


----------



## versikk

I daydream about this sometimes. It would be awesome if that was the truth.


----------



## versikk

Quote didn't appear.. hmm.. (was quoting Peregrinus)


----------



## Hindsight

The reason is the same reason as any other organism..
If you consider a humans reason to be different, then that's your own belief


----------



## Xenos

You weren't born for any "ultimate" purpose or anything like that. Your parents likely had a reason for wanting a child, and for deciding to have one, but that's not really what you mean.

If your birth serves a purpose, does another baby being stillborn also serve a purpose? Both of these things happened. If there's a design, they're both part of it. Do you think some higher power decided that other baby would be stillborn? _Really?

_Your birth is a result of the circumstances and events that preceded it. There are reasons that it happened, but those are things that came before. You have to decide what comes after, what you're moving toward. You get to decide what your life means. And it doesn't even _have_ to mean anything; that's up to you, too.


----------



## franklin86

People who have had near death experiences and entered the spirit world, have said that they were sent back because they still had things to do.


----------



## ugh1979

redbrand12 said:


> I'm an atheist and was just wondering why are we born if there's nothing else after death? I'm starting to believe that we're born for a reason. A reason that I can't explain nor come close to understanding. Why would we be born if our only purpose in this life is to die? That doesn't make any sense to me. Please share your opinion so that this can make sense to me.


A reason for life indicates a design, and there is no evidence that supports life being designed. Things just happen due to the way the universe evolves.

The only reason/meaning/purpose to life is the one you give it. If you think nothing you do has any point since your life is finite than that's a sad wasted pointless life. Why not be content with a finite life, and give it meaning? Anything good you do will give positive meaning to at least your life and hopefully others.

Meaning comes from within, not from "above".


----------



## ugh1979

franklin86 said:


> People who have had near death experiences and entered the spirit world, have said that they were sent back because they still had things to do.


People make up all sorts of nonsense to explain hallucination during NDEs or otherwise.


----------



## ugh1979

BadGirl said:


> Very good questions - I would recommend posting this in the spiritual support forum.


I wouldn't.

To the OP, don't let people in the spiritual support forum convert you to a Christian or whatever other supernatural delusions they follow.

You're already an atheist, so look in to the world of modern science and philosophy for the answers to your questions rather than ancient scripture.

You will ultimately find it far more rewarding and not have to endure the cognitive dissonance that any intelligent person who is also religious so often suffers.


----------



## Ignopius

No offense but this thread seems like a Christian trolling us nonbelievers. Not the question itself but the fact Redbread12 came up with no real logical conclusions or links. Just because we die doesn't mean there's some ultimate reason for our existence. 

Reason vs. Purpose are two very different things I wish to address. Reason for your birth could simply be because your parents decided go through intercourse (as natural selection would dictate). Now the reason FOR evolution and the reason there's existence rather than nonexistence is a great philosophical/scientific question that naturally I'm interested in as well. But this does not mean there's a god. Purpose is what you make your life out to be. You as an individual give your own life purpose. Ultimate purpose resided in nature is to survive and reproduce. But since we are rational and have sentients, mankind can think and strive for more than just our natural instinct.


----------



## Zeeshan

Of course we are born for a reason

But those reasons aren't necessarily positive


----------



## Zeeshan

mark101 said:


> Unless you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth you're born to suffer for seven decades before you die.


Suffering is subjective

Its a choice.

Human beings are armed with attention and focus

Its not natures fault that we dont excercise our will


----------



## Zeeshan

mark101 said:


> Attention and focus for what?


On the life you want.

You say ppl.are suffering suffering is subjective and what those people pay attention to

Recently I have been reading a brilliant book by Daniel Goleman called Focus.


----------



## Amandus

We were born simply because our parents wanted a kid, but the point of reproduction is to pass genes from parent to offspring and hopefully it will survive the elements and do the same thing, resulting in evolution. However, there is no ultimate goal of that. If there was a goal of evolution, it would be to create a "perfect" species with no weaknesses, which is most likely impossible.


----------



## hammerfast

we were born for a reason alright


----------



## Crimson Lotus

Are birds, plants, dogs or cockroaches born for a "reason"?

We're just animals, albeit the most advanced animals on this planet, but animals nonetheless. 

I just find a certain arrogance in the notion that there's supposed to be some mystic force driving our existence given that we originated from the same humble and meaningless origin as all other living species.


----------



## fredbloggs02

ugh1979 said:


> A reason for life indicates a design, and there is no evidence that supports life being designed. Things just happen due to the way the universe evolves.
> 
> The only reason/meaning/purpose to life is the one you give it. If you think nothing you do has any point since your life is finite than that's a sad wasted pointless life. Why not be content with a finite life, and give it meaning? Anything good you do will give positive meaning to at least your life and hopefully others.
> 
> Meaning comes from within, not from "above".


Firstly, I have heard it argued at least as plausibly that design permeates nature so intricately the least infinitesimal alteration would have affixed darkness upon the face of the deep forever.

Secondly, countless men and women who sought God have been illuminated internally, many of whom were convinced others had obscured the majesty God revealed- when finally their dim light was out. The dark serenity of the heavens were transfigured by their creator who blazed from the sky like the stars.


----------



## ugh1979

Schierke said:


> Are birds, plants, dogs or cockroaches born for a "reason"?
> 
> We're just animals, albeit the most advanced animals on this planet, but animals nonetheless.
> 
> I just find a certain arrogance in the notion that there's supposed to be some mystic force driving our existence given that we originated from the same humble and meaningless origin as all other living species.


Indeed, it's extremely arrogant, and anthropocentric, to believe human life has a divine reason/purpose, but no other life does.


----------



## ugh1979

fredbloggs02 said:


> Firstly, I have heard it argued at least as plausibly that design permeates nature so intricately the least infinitesimal alteration would have affixed darkness upon the face of the deep forever.


You are getting confused then. What you are referring to is certain values of particles in physics, not all of nature. The universe could still exist in almost exactly the same way if the vast majority of things were different.

Regarding those particle values, in what people sometimes say is evidence of the universe being "fine-tuned"; it could well be that there is a multiverse, and we just happen to live in a universe where the values are just right so as to eventually give rise to us. If they were of values which wouldn't give rise to us then we wouldn't be around to ask the question, so in fact we are "fine-tuned" to our universe, rather than the universe being fine-tuned to allow us to exist. That is known as the anthropic principle.



> Secondly, countless men and women who sought God have been illuminated internally, many of whom were convinced others had obscured the majesty God revealed- when finally their dim light was out. The dark serenity of the heavens were transfigured by their creator who blazed from the sky like the stars.


I can't deny it has, but only delusionary. (IMO)


----------



## calichick

Amandus said:


> We were born simply because our parents wanted a kid,


True. And not all times it's an improvement.

My main purpose and your main purpose in life should be simply to think about the advancement of our kind. A smarter, fitter, wiser breed of people to endure the circumstances of our environment. That is the purpose in life, positive procreation and advancement of the human race.


----------



## visualkeirockstar

To destroys earth and waste space.


----------



## SummerRae

no, we were all born to live then die..


that's it.


----------



## inerameia

We're born. We live. We destroy. We evolve. It's a cycle.


----------



## Alienated

SummerRae said:


> no, we were all born to live then die..
> 
> that's it.


Maybe that's why you can't find the answers you seek about yourself. You aren't looking if you believe that. You, and I, and all of us have a reason, if anything to find it... Let me tell you a story..

My brother was murdered at 25 years old... It was a terrible loss, and it made me ask the same questions... But we listed him as a organ donor, and they striped him clean...

A month later we got a letter in the mail... Saying a 16 year old girl got his corneas and she got her eye sight back. 
And a 55 year old guy got his heart...

So in a way my brother kept living on, and he served a purpose...

But above all, if I didn't have my bother when I was younger to protect me... I wouldn't be writing this to you now. Sounds like he was born for a reason, and it wasn't discovered till after he died.

Also the things we go through are for a reason too... so we can be there for others going through the same thing.


----------



## sad vlad

Yes. To crawl through a life you didnt ask for, waiting for the countdown till death to end.


----------



## inerameia

You seem more agnostic, OP. I am agnostic too. I believe there may be a higher power but I don't believe any religion represents reality. They all contain human wisdom, but not all knowledge. I look to science for most questions, but I also philosophize a lot.


----------



## janey b

I think our only true meaning is to survive and propagate our species, I see no other purpose other than that one.


----------



## janey b

mark101 said:


> Unless you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth you're born to suffer for seven decades before you die.


I laughed when I saw this post because I have often thought the very same thing. :clap


----------



## apx24

nubly said:


> You were born because either your parents wanted a child, used faulty contraceptive or were careless.


:yes


----------



## noscreenname

Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us.


----------



## owls

Yes, to pro create!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Royals

Have to be. Because how else where you chosen from 500 million competing sperm cells?
I already don't believe in luck, but a chance of 1 in 500 million? Not even the lottery would believe in this


----------



## CheezusCrust

We were born because some of our species reproduced.


----------



## Xenos

Royals said:


> Have to be. Because how else where you chosen from 500 million competing sperm cells?
> I already don't believe in luck, but a chance of 1 in 500 million? Not even the lottery would believe in this


Does that kind of thinking really make sense to you?

One sperm cell had to make it in order to complete the reproductive process. One did, and here you are. If a different sperm cell had made it, someone very similar to you - with most of your genes and probably many of your experiences - would be here instead, one of seven billion people on the planet, the result of a process that has been successfully accomplished hundreds of billions of times before. The fact that one sperm cell did make it - a basic requirement of that process - doesn't imply that you were "chosen".


----------



## ugh1979

Royals said:


> Have to be. Because how else where you chosen from 500 million competing sperm cells?
> I already don't believe in luck, but a chance of 1 in 500 million? Not even the lottery would believe in this


That makes no sense. You are a result of 1 of the 500 million sperm cells fertilising an egg. You didn't exist before it, so there was no odds to beat to give rise to you as you are now, and the 1 sperm cell that gave rise to you just happened to be one that fertilised the egg.

If it had been another you may have turned out slightly different.

This seems like another example of your reasoning and assumptions starting with "you" and your beliefs, then working everything in the universe and all causation backwards from it to fit.

If so you've got it all the wrong way round. The universe gave rise to you via a multitude of processes. You didn't pre-exist it and it had to fit around you.


----------



## Zeeshan

Absoloutely

The universe operates on physical law

No such thing as random. Dont listen to the athiests something bad happend to them when they were young and they blame higher powers on it. They never got over this bad incident and spend their whole life trying to disprove existence 

Notice how athiest make it a life mission to whine complain and push their agendas. You will also find they are more miserable throughout. 

However when the time comes and they face death they always start the prayer. Look in your heart and you will know this to be true


----------



## Zeeshan

likeaspacemonkey said:


> Maybe. The universe is way huge and complex, and we're tiny. You'll never know.


Its amazing how athiest ignore that. A few science labs and they think they got it all figured out lol

That would be like ants thinking they have the earth figured out


----------



## ugh1979

Zeeshan said:


> Absoloutely
> 
> The universe operates on physical law


As opposed to metaphysical/theistic laws? That seems to be at odds with your supernatural beliefs.



> No such thing as random.


The majority of physicists disagree with you. Including Einstein, who admitted it was his biggest mistake.

I guess you know better though. :roll



> Dont listen to the athiests something bad happend to them when they were young and they blame higher powers on it. They never got over this bad incident and spend their whole life trying to disprove existence


You are getting confused again. In what way are atheists trying to "disprove existence"? Existence of some form is a fundamental given. We think, wherefore we are. Are atheists trying to disprove they exist? :lol



> Notice how athiest make it a life mission to whine complain and push their agendas.


You confuse a forum for such discussion with it being the only thing people who post relevant topics on it are interested in.

Try applying some deductive thought about why you don't hear people on this forum talking about other subjects.



> You will also find they are more miserable throughout.


Yeah all those happiest countries in the world with very high numbers of atheists are miserable.



> However when the time comes and they face death they always start the prayer. Look in your heart and you will know this to be true


Wishful thinking on your behalf with no evidence to substantiate it as usual.


----------



## ugh1979

Zeeshan said:


> Its amazing how athiest ignore that. A few science labs and they think they got it all figured out lol
> 
> That would be like ants thinking they have the earth figured out


You don't understand how science works.

It's religions that typically think they have it all worked out and claim absolute knowledge of the truth. Science is always a work in progress, so never claims absolute knowledge of the truth. Just the most credible current approximation of the truth.


----------



## wraith

Nah. I'm an athiest too. We're a product of nature, and all we can do is try out best your enjoy the limited time we have on this earth.


----------



## Zeeshan

ugh1979 said:


> You don't understand how science works.
> 
> It's religions that think they have it all worked out and claim absolute knowledge of the truth. Science is always a work in progress, so never claims absolute knowledge of the truth. Just the most credible approximation of the truth.


Yeah science sure has helped all the people here

The return on investment in science is so low

Almost trillion dollar spent on baldness And science still can't cure it. But I guess they are gonna tell me about the nature of universe

Can't solve the easy ones but they figured out the universe

Can we cure cancer no
Baldness no
How about the common cold nope

But wait last night we figured out the nature of things


----------



## beli mawr

ugh1979 said:


> You don't understand how science works.
> 
> It's religions that think they have it all worked out and claim absolute knowledge of the truth. Science is always a work in progress, so never claims absolute knowledge of the truth. Just the most credible approximation of the truth.


One of the things I love about science is the throwing up of hands in the air and saying "I don't know. I don't get it."


----------



## ugh1979

beli mawr said:


> One of the things I love about science is the throwing up of hands in the air and saying "I don't know. I don't get it."


Indeed. 

Always question everything, even that which we think we know, to ensure it's still the most credible estimation of the truth.

I'd hate to have a world view that was "set in stone" and think the answers were already written down in a book and unchangeable.


----------



## ugh1979

Zeeshan said:


> Yeah science sure has helped all the people here


It's helped some, but not others. What's your point? Nobody said it could help everyone.



> The return on investment in science is so low


Yeah having such high standards of living now due to significant investment in science in the past is awful. :|



> Almost trillion dollar spent on baldness And science still can't cure it. But I guess they are gonna tell me about the nature of universe
> 
> Can't solve the easy ones but they figured out the universe
> 
> Can we cure cancer no
> Baldness no
> How about the common cold nope
> 
> But wait last night we figured out the nature of things


It really does seem that you view science as one co-ordinated body. :?

You're confusion/misunderstanding of how science works and what it says is always a source of amusement here, as never mind how many times you are schooled on it you always just keep making the same mistakes. :lol


----------



## Royals

You know how tough battle it is between the sperm cells? And what long road they have to take before one (with the strong genes) is able to survive to even get to the egg? That is a miracle by itself, because the rest won't even make it there. The second miracle is that you are born healthy and in a normal way. The third is that you live a long and healthy live. These aren't no things to be taken for granted. I would be so thankful everyday to be alive, and that is why we celebrate our birthday every year. Yes, 7 billion people on this earth, but you know how much 7 billion times 500 million is? Those 7 billion all survived from on average 500 million cells. Nothing is by chance. I believe that before birth you were chosen by God and your spirit was put in your mother's womb. It ain't no coincidence. Yes, another cell could have been fertilized but why you? Why do you live? What is the meaning of your life? That is a question science has not answers for.


----------



## Xenos

Royals said:


> You know how tough battle it is between the sperm cells? And what long road they have to take before one (with the strong genes) is able to survive to even get to the egg? That is a miracle by itself, because the rest won't even make it there. The second miracle is that you are born healthy and in a normal way. The third is that you live a long and healthy live. These aren't no things to be taken for granted. I would be so thankful everyday to be alive, and that is why we celebrate our birthday every year. Yes, 7 billion people on this earth, but you know how much 7 billion times 500 million is? Those 7 billion all survived from on average 500 million cells. Nothing is by chance. I believe that before birth you were chosen by God and your spirit was put in your mother's womb. It ain't no coincidence. Yes, another cell could have been fertilized but why you? Why do you live? What is the meaning of your life? That is a question science has not answers for.


The reason science doesn't have answers for questions like this is because they're premised on mistaken ideas about the natural world. The success of the human reproductive system is the result of millions of years of natural selection, which has the effect of weeding out less successful systems so that only the working ones remain. The 500 million sperm aren't different people; each of them is 50% of the same 100% of your father's DNA, which makes them mostly the same. It didn't _have_ to be you that was born, but it had to be somebody, so the fact that it _was_ you, in and of itself, isn't particularly remarkable.

It just feels to me like this is _really_ stretching to find a basis for a higher purpose. I know you're committed to the idea of a higher purpose, but I don't think it follows from the evidence you've cited.


----------



## Milco

Royals said:


> Yes, another cell could have been fertilized but why you? Why do you live? What is the meaning of your life? That is a question science has not answers for.


That's not how it works at all.
Does god pick the lottery numbers also? I mean.. every week they pick a combination, but the likelihood of that particular combination is incredibly low, so it must be god's work?
I'm not really sure I understand why god would need to make other combinations in the lottery seem likely (or make other sperm cells) if he has predecided which will win out, but maybe god just likes seeing life forms struggle in vain.

And of course science has no answer for what the meaning of life is, because there is no meaning.
You have wants and desires from your biological/chemical nature, but there is no meaning greater than you. Looking for such answer is by itself a religious/spiritual pursuit and doesn't make sense in the scientific or factual realm.


----------



## ugh1979

Royals said:


> You know how tough battle it is between the sperm cells? And what long road they have to take before one (with the strong genes) is able to survive to even get to the egg? That is a miracle by itself, because the rest won't even make it there.


You find something that we know definitely happens via a well understood and commonly observed study of biology a "miracle"?

While from a limited perspective chance can appear slim for things that give rise to life to emerge, life exists because the vastness of the universe provides trillions of chances for it to exist, so in fact it becomes almost inevitable rather than so slim a chance as to be unplausible. That's just basic mathematics and logic.



> The second miracle is that you are born healthy and in a normal way.


Again, not a miracle as we have a solid understanding of biology, and are aware of how many fetuses aren't both healthy and normal.



> The third is that you live a long and healthy live.


You seem to be ignoring the billions who died/die young and ill.

It's only by a species enduring numbers that it evades extinction. That's no miracle, just math and logic.



> Yes, 7 billion people on this earth, but you know how much 7 billion times 500 million is? Those 7 billion all survived from on average 500 million cells.


What reasoning do you have to calculate the number of people there are with the number of sperm cells there are in one ejaculation? It's a meaningless calculation. :?



> Nothing is by chance.


The premise of your argument seems to be a refusal to accept numerical values large enough in nature to make what you perceive as unlikely in fact almost inevitable.

Why is that? Do you not accept the vast scale and age of the universe evidence indicates which provides the beyond trillions of chances?

If so you need to provide some evidence to support your tiny limited world view.



> I believe that before birth you were chosen by God and your spirit was put in your mother's womb. It ain't no coincidence. Yes, another cell could have been fertilized but why you?


Because of basic logic that follows that a "you" emerges from the consciousness of a baby.

If you believe that "you" exists prior to you being physically alive then you need to show some evidence or many people will easily and justifiably reject your argument as fantasy.



> Why do you live? What is the meaning of your life? That is a question science has not answers for.


Those are generally questions for philosophy, with no objective answers, just as religion has no credible objective answers for them either.


----------



## nothing else

To die


----------



## ugh1979

nothing else said:


> To die


What reason does that serve?


----------



## To22

I haven't a clue, but things do seem far too orderly and consistent for me to believe existence is nothing but the sum of eternal randomness. 

I tend to feel a part of a system with some kind of objective, but there are so many possibilities D:

....but I jump from conclusion to conclusion, some conclusions simply seeing maturity, sometimes said conclusions insist that there is no goal because time has no beginning or end, everything happens in the same moment and due to randomness, the only reason is for things to just happen. At other moments, I feel existence is paradoxically finite and at the beginning of it all, every possibility is here, leaving room for our lives to actually see a grand ending. 

Sometimes I doubt to exist for a reason, but is that to contradict nature?


----------



## visualkeirockstar

No.


----------



## ugh1979

The Coolest said:


> I haven't a clue, but things do seem far too orderly and consistent for me to believe existence is nothing but the sum of eternal randomness.


The universe is filled with trillions of different states, most with little order.

Thinking that something we see as order can't arise from such an immense amount of chances is like throwing a plate of alphabetti spaghetti at a well and thinking that any word that happens to form out of the thousands of chances is the sign of a creator.



> I tend to feel a part of a system with some kind of objective, but there are so many possibilities D:


It's likely we evolved to feel part of a system/group, as that served our survival best. (Group actions typically outcompeted individual actions)

However, our culture, knowledge and societies have evolved to such an extent now so as to remove that feeling being divine in nature and can now be entirly secular.

Most of us do identify with groups, but the nature of those groups can be anything we choose.


----------



## To22

ugh1979 said:


> The universe is filled with trillions of different states, most with little order.


Haha I don't know about all that. Even in instances in which things seem to be without order, that could be only how it seems.



ugh1979 said:


> Thinking that something we see as order can't arise from such an immense amount of chances is like throwing a plate of alphabetti spaghetti at a well and thinking that any word that happens to form out of the thousands of chances is the sign of a creator.
> 
> It's likely we evolved to feel part of a system/group, as that served our survival best. (Group actions typically outcompeted individual actions)
> 
> However, our culture, knowledge and societies have evolved to such an extent now so as to remove that feeling being divine in nature and can now be entirly secular.
> 
> Most of us do identify with groups, but the nature of those groups can be anything we choose.


Makes sense. I began expressing similarly when making my post.


----------



## ugh1979

The Coolest said:


> Haha I don't know about all that. Even in instances in which things seem to be without order, that could be only how it seems.


Only if they violated the laws of physics such as those of thermodynamics. A vast body of evidence support those fundamental laws, so until they stop working there is no reason to think they aren't correct.



> Makes sense. I began expressing similarly when making my post.


Yes I saw you added more to your post to that effect after i'd originally quoted it.


----------



## Royals

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart" (Jeremiah 1:5).

"Even if life had no meaning I had to give it one". We have to give life meaning or else living life is meaningless. You can either think everything is luck or by chance or that it has a reason and is meant to be. I don't think life is that simple and useless, it is very complex and everything has it's reason and purpose.


----------



## Xenos

Royals said:


> "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart" (Jeremiah 1:5).
> 
> "Even if life had no meaning I had to give it one". We have to give life meaning or else living life is meaningless. You can either think everything is luck or by chance or that it has a reason and is meant to be. I don't think life is that simple and useless, it is very complex and everything has it's reason and purpose.


So it sounds like it's at least occurred to you that you might be able to give your own life a meaning where it previously had none? There isn't any pre-set meaning, and there's no higher power to give us one, but there is still_ us_. You can decide what your life means, and then make it mean that. Nobody has more authority to decide that than you.

I bet there are plenty of people who're perfectly happy living lives that are more or less meaningless. They are born, they have childhoods, they have their friends and their loves and their losses and their fleeting pleasures and they're not especially troubled by the need for it all to mean something. I see no basis for us to judge them on that. Meaning is optional, but if you want one, it's up to you to decide on one.

Also, sorry to bring this up, but am I the only one who thinks quoting scripture on an atheist and agnostic support forum is kind of bad form?


----------



## Crimson Lotus

Zeeshan said:


> Yeah science sure has helped all the people here


Interesting sarcasm coming from someone using a computer to connect to the Internet.


----------



## ugh1979

Royals said:


> "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart" (Jeremiah 1:5).
> 
> "Even if life had no meaning I had to give it one". We have to give life meaning or else living life is meaningless. You can either think everything is luck or by chance or that it has a reason and is meant to be. I don't think life is that simple and useless, it is very complex and everything has it's reason and purpose.


Why do you think life arising via unguided evolutionary processes means it's "simple and useless"?

Life, regardless of how it was formed, is complex and is at least of use to itself. You can't disagree with that.

Everything has its reason for existing, but they are causality based reasons in the past, not a fate based future. (As far as we can tell)


----------



## diamondheart89

We were born so ugh could tell us why our existence has no meaning. Well, at least I was.


----------



## Juno1984

Yes. I think we all get a set of problems we must overcome while we're still alive. It all passes on to the next generation and the next. No one is to blame for having problems.

But... my problems seem so bad to me that I'd have to live to be at least 200 before I could honestly say that I don't see any problems in my life.


----------



## ugh1979

diamondheart89 said:


> We were born so ugh could tell us why our existence has no meaning. Well, at least I was.


Nothing has objective meaning as far as we can tell, only subjective. Meaning is an inner significance.


----------



## diamondheart89

ugh1979 said:


> Nothing has objective meaning as far as we can tell, only subjective. Meaning is an inner significance.


Isn't everything mostly subjective because we can't view it objectively? We can describe things as we know them based on the senses we have, but we don't actually know them for how they actually are objectively.

That makes sense in my head, I'll go with it.


----------



## Juno1984

ugh1979 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Always question everything, even that which we think we know, to ensure it's still the most credible estimation of the truth.
> 
> I'd hate to have a world view that was "set in stone" and think the answers were already written down in a book and unchangeable.


Exactly :yes


----------



## ugh1979

diamondheart89 said:


> Isn't everything mostly subjective because we can't view it objectively? We can describe things as we know them based on the senses we have, but we don't actually know them for how they actually are objectively.
> 
> That makes sense in my head, I'll go with it.


Well we do experiments which aim to remove subjectivity and reveal objectivity, but yes it could be said that we can't know with 100% certainty the objective nature of anything.

Hence why science never claims 100% proof of anything.


----------



## beli mawr

Royals said:


> You know how tough battle it is between the sperm cells? And what long road they have to take before one (with the strong genes) is able to survive to even get to the egg?


Huh? Strength of the genes has nothing really to do with it. it's which one is able to survive all the elements to make it there safely, with a bit of chance. Kind of like driving in New Jersey.


----------



## wine1345

Everything what happens in the universe has a purpose.


----------



## Grignard

wine1345 said:


> Everything what happens in the universe has a purpose.


What makes you say that?


----------



## BrookeHannigan

Yes,to procreate
get started now


----------



## redbrand12

Zeeshan said:


> Absoloutely
> 
> The universe operates on physical law
> 
> No such thing as random. Dont listen to the athiests something bad happend to them when they were young and they blame higher powers on it. They never got over this bad incident and spend their whole life trying to disprove existence
> 
> Notice how athiest make it a life mission to whine complain and push their agendas. You will also find they are more miserable throughout.
> 
> However when the time comes and they face death they always start the prayer. Look in your heart and you will know this to be true


Well I'm an Atheist and I can say that we disprove religion because there's no concrete proof to prove that a "god" exists. Every time we ask religious nuts for 1 piece of solid proof, they offer none. Also, how do you know that every Atheist prays when death comes? You don't know that so stop making things up.


----------



## shyguyred

each person is an artist of there life,the only point is to create stuff to look at it and admire it.


----------



## pazuzuinxs

shyguyred said:


> each person is an artist of there life,the only point is to create stuff to look at it and admire it.


Every person creates something by his/her actions. Should each person admire each of his/her creations?


----------



## pazuzuinxs

ugh1979 said:


> Why do you think life arising via unguided evolutionary processes means it's "simple and useless"?
> 
> Life, regardless of how it was formed, is complex and is at least of use to itself. You can't disagree with that.
> 
> Everything has its reason for existing, but they are causality based reasons in the past, not a fate based future. (As far as we can tell)


But why would something complex have to be useful? In fact the best physical laws are the simplest and most elegant ones.

Again, what causes the 'cause' argument can be extended ad infinitum...but of course a fate based future is easily refuted.


----------



## thinkstoomuch101

nubly said:


> You were born because either your parents wanted a child, used faulty contraceptive or were careless.


there you have it.

I totally agree..:yes


----------



## pazuzuinxs

CheezusCrust said:


> We were born because some of our species reproduced.


That's the causation process. Not the rationale. 
Its like saying that the Mona Lisa exists because Vinci made it. Sure, but why did he make it and nothing else? Or what caused him to make it and not sit back and have a pipe? Now we have some clues about the Mona Lisa though...


----------



## AceEmoKid

I don't believe there is a purpose to our lives, unless you mean the common sense explanation: "Because my mother gave birth to me." That would just be cause-and-effect, something any logical human being could observe and say they "know." Purpose is like fate. Who or what could possibly write that out? I remain agnostic and open to philosophical interpretations, but still...

We _create_ purpose and value. I don't think there is any pre-destined purpose laid out for us to discover.


----------



## pazuzuinxs

AceEmoKid said:


> I don't believe there is a purpose to our lives, unless you mean the common sense explanation: "Because my mother gave birth to me." That would just be cause-and-effect, something any logical human being could observe and say they "know." Purpose is like fate. Who or what could possibly write that out? I remain agnostic and open to philosophical interpretations, but still...
> 
> We _create_ purpose and value. I don't think there is any pre-destined purpose laid out for us to discover.


Now, I am an atheist but there is some disconnects I feel when one says one creates purpose and value. And I am just curious. Is the purpose and value determinable or is it almost attributable to free will? Or even to luck/ probabilities?


----------



## AceEmoKid

pazuzuinxs said:


> Now, I am an atheist but there is some disconnects I feel when one says one creates purpose and value. And I am just curious. Is the purpose and value determinable or is it almost attributable to free will? Or even to luck/ probabilities?


Value is inevitably created, so long as the creature has entered the world with consciousness. Not to say that one is born with a predestined value, but once you are aware of the world and are thinking about it, you have created/assigned value. I think we are on very different fundamental tangents/beliefs about purpose and value, therefore I don't think I can sufficiently answer your bit about luck and probabilities. Unless you are asking whether they are factors in creation of value -- then yes. Our experience (which is affected by circumstances, probability, virtually any causation) constantly changes our value. We are not static beings.


----------



## pazuzuinxs

AceEmoKid said:


> Value is inevitably created, so long as the creature has entered the world with consciousness. Not to say that one is born with a predestined value, but once you are aware of the world and are thinking about it, you have created/assigned value. I think we are on very different fundamental tangents/beliefs about purpose and value, therefore I don't think I can sufficiently answer your bit about luck and probabilities. Unless you are asking whether they are factors in creation of value -- then yes. Our experience (which is affected by circumstances, probability, virtually any causation) constantly changes our value. We are not static beings.


Inasmuch as we are not static beings means that we are constantly creating value then. As is my cat who runs around beside me. But that is just change, or are you referring to dynamism as value creation?


----------



## AceEmoKid

pazuzuinxs said:


> Inasmuch as we are not static beings means that we are constantly creating value then. As is my cat who runs around beside me. But that is just change, or are you referring to dynamism as value creation?


Hm, I'm not exactly sure what dynamism is.

I'll just elaborate on my explanation in case. We can agree that the world, physically at least, is constantly moving, shifting, and changing, correct? In one respect, the value of all entities physically changing also have their values changing in correspondence. All these physical changes also affect each other, like a chain reaction, so every minute change in the universe will be magnified unto all, sooner or later (a small, closed example: the string of a guitar pops due to temperature change. a chain reaction, or the physical change in weather affects the physical properties of the guitar. the guitar is arguably still playable, but not at the full capability as when it had 6 functioning strings -- the value of the guitar has changed).

Now, those are just inanimate objects. However, the conscious beings are similar, only that due to their awareness, physical changes also affect cognitive aspects (like but not limited to emotions, reason, and perception). Creatures like humans are especially complex because we can take those small physical changes and mull them over. We create ideas (and thus have the ability to create value, as well) within our minds, without necessarily being fed corresponding physical triggers.

In the end, I will probably never know. Maybe there is some sort of fate, but I do not know so at this moment. It's fun to think about, I guess.


----------



## pazuzuinxs

AceEmoKid said:


> Hm, I'm not exactly sure what dynamism is.
> 
> I'll just elaborate on my explanation in case. We can agree that the world, physically at least, is constantly moving, shifting, and changing, correct? In one respect, the value of all entities physically changing also have their values changing in correspondence. All these physical changes also affect each other, like a chain reaction, so every minute change in the universe will be magnified unto all, sooner or later (a small, closed example: the string of a guitar pops due to temperature change. a chain reaction, or the physical change in weather affects the physical properties of the guitar. the guitar is arguably still playable, but not at the full capability as when it had 6 functioning strings -- the value of the guitar has changed).
> 
> Now, those are just inanimate objects. However, the conscious beings are similar, only that due to their awareness, physical changes also affect cognitive aspects (like but not limited to emotions, reason, and perception). Creatures like humans are especially complex because we can take those small physical changes and mull them over. We create ideas (and thus have the ability to create value, as well) within our minds, without necessarily being fed corresponding physical triggers.
> 
> In the end, I will probably never know. Maybe there is some sort of fate, but I do not know so at this moment. It's fun to think about, I guess.


I totally agree with what you say but this has nothing to do with creating value. We humans make models of the physical changes through our senses and there is nothing complicated about it. 
Actually all I am arguing for is perspective. Value or no value is also perspective or maybe even a delusion.


----------



## Shredder

Some really good responses here. As someone else pointed out, you sound more agnostic that atheist? The question you are asking is the exact reason religion was invented by humanity.... to fill that void. Not everyone has that existential void, I think that's where the logical "parents via intercourse" response comes from. Others are content to fill the void with a god. You need to decide where your thoughts fit. Good luck... it can be a bumpy road!

Victor Frankl "Man's search for ultimate meaning" might give you a few thoughts to ponder on??


----------



## ugh1979

pazuzuinxs said:


> But why would something complex have to be useful? In fact the best physical laws are the simplest and most elegant ones.
> 
> Again, what causes the 'cause' argument can be extended ad infinitum...but of course a fate based future is easily refuted.


I'd call any life a complex arrangement of matter, but the term complex is relative.

Things are typically as simple as they require to be, since unnecessary over complexity is inefficient, but that state can of course be relatively complex.


----------



## bsd3355

I think your "reason" is personal. As far as I can tell, there really isn't a main reason but to live, but that's good enough for me


----------



## pazuzuinxs

bwidger85 said:


> I think your "reason" is personal. As far as I can tell, there really isn't a main reason but to live, but that's good enough for me


How would you explain people who find a reason not to live? Deviant?


----------



## pazuzuinxs

ugh1979 said:


> I'd call any life a complex arrangement of matter, but the term complex is relative.
> 
> Things are typically as simple as they require to be, since unnecessary over complexity is inefficient, but that state can of course be relatively complex.


Accepted :yes


----------

