# Kratom



## BKBAndy (Feb 28, 2017)

I have been doing kratom for almost 2 years now and I would say I have made a lot of progress with my social anxiety. There are still many situations I shy away from, but I do not get the panic attacks or adrenaline I used to get. I remain much more calm entering social situations now, but I still tend to shy away from socializing, and that is something I need to improve upon. 

I still struggle with a marijuana addiction and that is something that is terrible for my social anxiety. I have heard that ppl with SA are very vulnerable to marijuana addiction, something about our personality types. Most ppl don't see marijuana as addictive, but maybe there are some ppl on here that know it is like I do. 

Just wanted to let ppl know about kratom. I really need to give kava a try because I hear it is good for SA. Kratom is very mood uplifting, and I struggle with depression too. I have managed my SA and depression in the past 2 years with kratom. I have also practiced meditation, yoga, hypnosis, float tanks, microdosing, and many other things to combat my anxiety and depression. When I look back I realize I have been making an effort to fix this on my own. But maybe it is time for me to seek therapy because I'm 28 and missing out on many things in life such as dating and having fulfilling relationships.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

How often do you take kratom, how long and at what dose? (twice daily?)

Bear in mind there isn't a free lunch and some people can have pretty nasty withdrawals. I am about to make a vid about kratom at some point


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## BKBAndy (Feb 28, 2017)

I take kratom once or twice a day, usually twice and in doses of 2-5 grams. Yes some people can have some nasty withdrawals. Many opiate addicts will abuse kratom. There is certainly much potential for abuse, based off your personality, past history, and other factors . I like to think I use it pretty responsibly though. I have seen caffeine addicts that had nasty withdrawals too. So I think many things that are rather mild can still be abused, but because kratom is a psychoactive, and applies to many opiate addicts, there is definitely potential for abuse. Not just with opiate addicts of course.

I believe those with anxiety and depression would have less potential for abuse. Just would advise anyone who is thinking of trying it - don't let compulsive behaviors interfere with your supplementation. We all need to be conscious of the addictive potential of substances before you dig yourself in a hole. With that being said, I approach kratom with far less caution that I would with other drugs. I consider kratom to be mild and relatively harmless when taken daily at responsible doses. I've been doing it for almost 2 years now, and truly honestly , I have had absolutely zero issues of being unable to manage my life. My life has become more manageable, and there has been very little negatives I can think of. The only negative is if I don't do kratom i will develop a mild fever. Otherwise, I can't think of any negative side effects. I have heard it can be bad for the liver, so I should probably take some milk thistle.


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## BKBAndy (Feb 28, 2017)

I searched reddit for all social anxiety/kratom stories, there are quite a few:

https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/search?q=social+anxiety&restrict_sr=on


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## BKBAndy (Feb 28, 2017)

Hm the link isn't working let me try again

https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/search?q=social+anxiety&restrict_sr=on


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

BKBAndy said:


> I take kratom once or twice a day, usually twice and in doses of 2-5 grams. Yes some people can have some nasty withdrawals. Many opiate addicts will abuse kratom. There is certainly much potential for abuse, based off your personality, past history, and other factors . I like to think I use it pretty responsibly though. I have seen caffeine addicts that had nasty withdrawals too. So I think many things that are rather mild can still be abused, but because kratom is a psychoactive, and applies to many opiate addicts, there is definitely potential for abuse. Not just with opiate addicts of course.
> 
> I believe those with anxiety and depression would have less potential for abuse. Just would advise anyone who is thinking of trying it - don't let compulsive behaviors interfere with your supplementation. We all need to be conscious of the addictive potential of substances before you dig yourself in a hole. With that being said, I approach kratom with far less caution that I would with other drugs. I consider kratom to be mild and relatively harmless when taken daily at responsible doses. I've been doing it for almost 2 years now, and truly honestly , I have had absolutely zero issues of being unable to manage my life. My life has become more manageable, and there has been very little negatives I can think of. The only negative is if I don't do kratom i will develop a mild fever. Otherwise, I can't think of any negative side effects. I have heard it can be bad for the liver, so I should probably take some milk thistle.


Have you ever come off it for any length of time?

I take it occasionally (and have talked about it on my exposure vids), but I consider it to be in a whole different league to coffee. I could easily get psychologically addicted to it, and it delivers way too much of a high for my tastes as a therapeutic tool for anxiety (it only works for a couple of hours for me as well).

I would urge caution as a treatment because:

1. It is relatively unstudied scientifically
2. It clearly has addictive qualities (it's an opiod, at the end of the day).

I tread very carefully with it and have it in the same category as benzos (occasional, controlled use, personally).

I would use it for stronger opiod withdrawal, or long term pain management (rather than other opiods), without a doubt though. Anxiety and depression though, hmm, not personally convinced there.

Caution would be my advice on kratom, for what that is worth


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## BKBAndy (Feb 28, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> Have you ever come off it for any length of time?
> 
> I take it occasionally (and have talked about it on my exposure vids), but I consider it to be in a whole different league to coffee. I could easily get psychologically addicted to it, and it delivers way too much of a high for my tastes as a therapeutic tool for anxiety (it only works for a couple of hours for me as well).
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input, I respect your point of view and see where your coming from. I agree with some of what you said, and disagree with some. I have come off kratom for a length of time in the beginning a few weeks after I had first gotten into it, but was only using it 3 days a week. Probably didn't develop much of a tolerance or addiction at that point. After a month or two off it, I decided to get back into it. Since then I only went a few days off it and I did get a mild fever, but it wasn't anything I couldn't work under. I have embraced it, taking it daily and I honestly do not have any issues with my life being unmanageable from kratom.

It sounds crazy, but in ways I don't feel I am addicted because of that. Yes I take it daily, yes I would get sick from withdrawals, but I am in no way conflicted about it and I feel like if I had to or wanted to, I could stop. But that remains to be seen and I know it's a decision I may have to regret some day. I don't think I will though. The pain and fear I was living in before was no way to live. I would agree that it is more addictive physically then coffee. But maybe not mentally, because it is not so enjoyable to drink. Its nothing I look forward to like a nice warm cup of joe. I'll take kratom when I feel I need some energy or a mood uplift. And of course when I feel anxiety is coming on.

The whole reason I got into kratom was because of the effects it had on my father. My dad has work related panic disorder. He wouldn't sleep at night, and wake up stressing about work constantly. He owned his own business and the stress was overwhelming for him. His anxiety was more generalized than social. My brother, an opiate addict, came home one day and introduced us to kratom. My father began to take it in the mornings before he went to work, and in his words, it "completely wiped out anxiety." So I was pretty impressed and wanted to see what it was about and I noticed it helped me.

I do have to disagree with you putting it in the same class as benzos. I personally find it to be more effective at eliminating my anxiety, and it is definitely not nearly as destructive as Benzos. To even compare the two is blasphemous in my eyes. Your talking about a natural plant that is mild in effect vs a synthetic drug that can kill you if you come off it cold turkey. Nobody has ever overdosed on kratom, and of the 15 reported kratom related deaths, 14 of them had other drugs in their system.

I wonder, what type of kratom did you try? Was it an extract? Most people will feel focused, energized, and uplifted from a responsible sized dose of pure kratom leaf powder. Perhaps you took too much? I've felt sedated from kratom before but it is usually supposed to give you energy. Most users will report a mild effect when taking the right amounts. Though unstudied, this plant has been on this Earth for hundreds of years and in southeast Asia it has stood the test of time. Unregulated is the problem.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

BKBAndy said:


> I do have to disagree with you putting it in the same class as benzos. I personally find it to be more effective at eliminating my anxiety, and it is definitely not nearly as destructive as Benzos. To even compare the two is blasphemous in my eyes. Your talking about a natural plant that is mild in effect vs a synthetic drug that can kill you if you come off it cold turkey. Nobody has ever overdosed on kratom, and of the 15 reported kratom related deaths, 14 of them had other drugs in their system.


People don't die from benzo overdose though either (it is usually from mixing). It isn't about death, it is about dependency and what happens when you stop. Kratom might not be in the same category though _objectively_, but _I_ place it in the same category, simply because of its addictive nature as I experienced it.

You haven't tried to come off it since you started taking it twice daily for a long period (not that I am criticising you for that), so, in fairness you _don't know_ how bad it will be for you. I don't think it is reasonable for you to comment on what it is like _after_ long term use, if you haven't yet come off it after long term use. I am not being disrespectful or anything though in saying this, don't get me wrong, it's just I don't believe you have enough information to suggest the level of safety you are suggesting. Similarly I cannot say it is _unsafe_, I just have my suspicions and a sense of _caution_ based on the euphoric nature of the substance, the fact it is an opiod and my own experience with wanting to take it more and more (I never did, because that kind of urge worried me to the point where I had long breaks).

Natural or synthetic has no relevance whatsoever w.r.t. harm.



BKBAndy said:


> I wonder, what type of kratom did you try? Was it an extract? Most people will feel focused, energized, and uplifted from a responsible sized dose of pure kratom leaf powder. Perhaps you took too much? I've felt sedated from kratom before but it is usually supposed to give you energy. Most users will report a mild effect when taking the right amounts. Though unstudied, this plant has been on this Earth for hundreds of years and in southeast Asia it has stood the test of time. Unregulated is the problem.


I have tried most strains of plain leaf, from doses of 1g up to 10g.

Though kratom in my experience varies immensely from strain and batch. Most of the time it makes me feel very chilled out and happy, and positive about the world (for about 2-3 hours). On a few occasions I have experienced _intense_ euphoria on doses of 6g, which was enough to make me take it very seriously. Compared to coffee, in terms of euphoria they aren't in the same ballpark for me.

I haven't tried extracts.

But I don't want to get into an argument or anything, I just feel it is my responsibility to point out what this substance is, and that it should be treated with great caution, imo.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

A couple years back a "good" Krantom supplier was recommended to me by another SAS member.

Being desperate, I figured I might as well try it.

Even after some 70 capsules at once I got zero effect. And I know this was the "good stuff" as I fully trusted this fellow SAS member who swore by it.


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## BKBAndy (Feb 28, 2017)

UltraShy said:


> A couple years back a "good" Krantom supplier was recommended to me by another SAS member.
> 
> Being desperate, I figured I might as well try it.
> 
> Even after some 70 capsules at once I got zero effect. And I know this was the "good stuff" as I fully trusted this fellow SAS member who swore by it.


70 at once? Doesn't sound like you were sold kratom...if it was it wasn't any good. Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience. I'd consider giving it another shot. You can order online from some places and spend about $5-10.


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## BKBAndy (Feb 28, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> People don't die from benzo overdose though either (it is usually from mixing). It isn't about death, it is about dependency and what happens when you stop. Kratom might not be in the same category though _objectively_, but _I_ place it in the same category, simply because of its addictive nature as I experienced it.
> 
> You haven't tried to come off it since you started taking it twice daily for a long period (not that I am criticising you for that), so, in fairness you _don't know_ how bad it will be for you. I don't think it is reasonable for you to comment on what it is like _after_ long term use, if you haven't yet come off it after long term use. I am not being disrespectful or anything though in saying this, don't get me wrong, it's just I don't believe you have enough information to suggest the level of safety you are suggesting. Similarly I cannot say it is _unsafe_, I just have my suspicions and a sense of _caution_ based on the euphoric nature of the substance, the fact it is an opiod and my own experience with wanting to take it more and more (I never did, because that kind of urge worried me to the point where I had long breaks).
> 
> ...


No, I have come off it since taking twice daily. I said I went off for one to two months when i started, and then I went back on (for over a year) and since going back on, I have only taken a few days off. In that time I did experience some mild sickness.. The withdrawals were not that bad, and like I said, nothing I couldn't work under. Benzos are widely considered one of the most addictive drugs on the planet. You are just way off on this one. And people do die from benzo withdrawals. If you do not taper and attempt to go off cold turkey you are susceptible to seizures and death.

You are welcome to have your own opinion. I posted a link with stories of others with SA who said kratom helped them. Your opinion is no more or less valuable than theirs. I appreciate your input, but kratom has helped my SA, and helped many others. What works for you, or doesn't work for you, doesn't apply to everyone. There is very little info on here on kratom and for me its better than all the other supplements/medication on here. I have phenibut in my pantry and it weighs me down like benzos do.

My father was prescribed benzos and it destroyed his life. He regretted ever going on them. Now he takes kratom daily for as long as I have and he is doing much, much better.

I have made real progress in my last couple years. I've been doing yoga, meditation, hypnosis, CBT, float tanks, all types of stuff. I'm not just some guy who drinks kratom. I've explored many options and made a lot of progress. But my road to progress started with kratom.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Maybe I misread, but I thought you came off for a few months when you were only taking it 3 times a week after a few weeks of taking it? Then you said you had come off for a few days after taking it twice daily for a few years?

You have _no idea_ what the acute post withdrawal symptoms of kratom will be. You need to come off for a good few months to know what is going to happen there. Maybe you can go on forever and not gain tolerance, and maybe your country doesn't make it illegal, and maybe it doesn't tank your testosterone like opiods do, but at some point you might have to come off it, and you really don't know what you are going to be in for.

Should you then be recommending it, given that you haven't even experienced this yet yourself? Shouldn't you be being honest, saying "it's working great for me two years in, but I have no idea what is going to happen if I have to quit?".

I am not painting it out to be an evil drug, I am saying people should exercise great caution as they should treating any mental illness with opiods (there is a reason that isn't done). I have no issued with kratom for recreational use, pain relief or coming off harder opiods, taking for anxiety and depression seems like a riskier venture to me.


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## BKBAndy (Feb 28, 2017)

I acknowledged that kratom is addictive and I"m not forcing anyone to take it. I believe I'm free to share my positive experiences. I see all types of supplements on here. I would personally approach phenibut with more caution than kratom. You are one person and you have chimed your opinion, but you are attempting to refute the efficacy of kratom for everyone now, and coming off as a prick. I've shared my personal experiences, experiences of loved ones, and also included links to more stories. That's plenty of testimonial evidence. Medication often comes with withdrawals and dependency. At the end of the day people have the right to choose for themselves. There are many who have been prescribed drugs by their doctors and feel their doctor didn't have their best interests in mind years down the road when they are an addicted mess. If we cannot hold doctors to this standard you seem to expect, why are you going to expect that of some random person on a forum? Don't respond please, I'm done with you now.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

BKBAndy said:


> I acknowledged that kratom is addictive and I"m not forcing anyone to take it. I believe I'm free to share my positive experiences. I see all types of supplements on here. I would personally approach phenibut with more caution than kratom.


I also would approach phenibut with way more caution than kratom



BKBAndy said:


> You are one person and you have chimed your opinion, but you are attempting to refute the efficacy of kratom for everyone now, and coming off as a prick.


I have made no such claims. Kratom is very efficacious for providing a short term mood boost and anti anxiety effect, I have never claimed anything to the contrary. Calling someone who is trying to provide a balanced view on a substance a prick, isn't really doing you any favours, btw.



BKBAndy said:


> I've shared my personal experiences, experiences of loved ones, and also included links to more stories. That's plenty of testimonial evidence.


You have also strongly misrepresented long term dependency using your own example. You haven't attempted to come off after a two year, twice a day habit, so you have _no idea_ how this will affect you. This isn't personal for me, I just don't like these kinda of misrepresentations. Had you come off kratom for 6 months after 2 years of twice daily use, I wouldn't have had an issue. Had you said "this stuff might be very difficult to come off" I wouldn't have had a problem". You have misrepresented the withdrawal potential of an opiod. Sorry, but I can't just let that slip.



BKBAndy said:


> Medication often comes with withdrawals and dependency. At the end of the day people have the right to choose for themselves. There are many who have been prescribed drugs by their doctors and feel their doctor didn't have their best interests in mind years down the road when they are an addicted mess. If we cannot hold doctors to this standard you seem to expect, why are you going to expect that of some random person on a forum? Don't respond please, I'm done with you now.


Yes, they do, but when you make a post and imply that there wont be serious withdrawal problems based on the time when you were on it a few times a week, and equate this with the time when you have been a 2x daily user for two years, you aren't giving themselves the information they need to decide for themselves.

Why did you only come off kratom for a few days after the prolonged use?

Unfortunately for you, you don't get to decide when I respond or not. You can however, freely choose not to respond to me.

In no way during this exchange have I suggested people shouldn't try kratom, I have merely suggested they treat it with great caution because it is an opiod. I fail to see why you would have a problem with this.


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## Glycerin (Jun 26, 2016)

Are there European vendors of this product?


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