# Finally I have a stack that works for me



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

After a couple of awful years of SSRI's, then nothing for 6 months as i'd given up on medication, then buspirone for 2 months, I've finally found a stack of supps/meds that works for me.

For the last 2 weeks it has made me consistently happier than i've ever been, and as a bonus, improved my cognitive abilities. I knew how to make me happy/anxiety free for a day or two at a time by using recreational drugs but what I really wanted was to acheive a high level of happiness and low anxiety/social anxiety every day and start being able to move forward and improve my life overall.

After a deep depression of 18 months ended last summer (which actually coincided with the time I was on SSRI's), I was still left with moderate depression and high social anxiety/general anxiety on a daily basis and have been working since then to improve my mental health.

I've been chronically depressed/socially anxious/generally anxious since my early teens so I don't really know what it's like to feel good about much without recreational chemical assistance, but I hoped that could be solved with the right meds that I could take daily.

The second half of last year saw me discover and use Phenibut on a once a week basis and it has been great. I only use it at the weekend for tolerance reasons but that meant I had 5 or 6 days a week where I was still my usual anxious/depressed self so towards the end of the year I began searching for other meds/supps that I could take more often.

With traditional well rated MAOI's like Nardil not being an option for me due to the recreational drugs I sometimes take, and an unwillingness to go back onto SSRI's or similar, I had to dig deeper and experiment a bit. A couple of visits to a psychologist only got me as far as being prescribed buspirone, which I tried for 2 months but stopped a few weeks ago as it was doing little and had unpleasent side effects.

Around 2 months ago I also started taking racetam's with a view to improving my cognitive abilities mainly, but it's only been the last 2 weeks i've got the dosages correct for me and feel their effects and they have been notable.

Also around 2 months ago I started doing a lot more reading on what meds/supps could be bought on the net and Stablon, Selegiline, Pregabalin and Picamilon were the ones which most interested me. A few weeks ago I purchased them all and have been using the following cycling stack for the past 2 weeks to great effect:


*Monday *- Selegiline 5mg
*Tuesday *- Picamilon 1000mg
*Wednesday *- Stablon 2x 12.5mg (AM/PM)
*Thursday *- Picamilon 1000mg
*Friday* - Pregabalin 150mg
*Saturday *- Phenibut 2x 2000mg/aMT 2x 50mg (AM/PM)
*Sunday *- Phenibut 2x 2000mg/aMT 2x 50mg/MXE 2x 50mg (AM/PM)

I also have a daily stack of:

3500mg Piracetam
1000mg L-Tyrosine
1000mg DMAE
250mg Bacopa
2000mg Fish Oil
A-Z multi-vit

[EDIT: list updated with small amendment 01/04/11]

I appreciate the Selegiline is a med of note with regards to possible dangerous interactions but from my reading a weekly dose of 2.5mg shouldn't be an issue as it's only +10mg where MAOI issues come into effect

Also note that the dose of Picamilon may seem very very high but it's the only dose I feel any effect from.

The weekend drugs are of course primarily for recreation but they are a help overall. Especially the Phenibut and aMT for when socialising.

I hope this thread is of some interest and possible help to others, just as others similar threads here have been to me. 

I'll give an update again in a few weeks with how this stack is holding up.


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## feelalone (May 1, 2010)

very interesting, I know and I use many of your meds. 
So also selegiline and stablon could be used as needed? They are immediately effective? don't need to be used for many days to take effect?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

feelalone said:


> very interesting, I know and I use many of your meds.
> So also selegiline and stablon could be used as needed? They are immediately effective? don't need to be used for many days to take effect?


I've certainly felt the difference with the Stabon and I know people do take it in higher amounts for recreational effect so it appears so.

As for the Selegiline, I've read of others taking it in low doses once a week with positive effects and I wouldn't want to take it daily in case of dangerous interactions.


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

I think it's too early to evaluate the efficacy of your regimen, but one thing I'll say is that I personally don't believe selegiline once per week at that dosage is going to do much of anything. Its acute effects vary, and some people seem to feel nothing; certainly, it's all going to be gone by the next day, as it has a short half-life. You might try adding L-Tyrosine and DLPA on the selegiline days. The selegiline itself at that dose doesn't really do much, but it might prevent existing monoamine breakdown. If you add Tyrosine or DLPA, the selegiline will potentiate and prolong the biosynthetic effects of the former. That's where its main benefit is at those doses. I think you also ought to bump up to 5mg. If you experience results from that, you might try at least adding that combination once every other day.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

bmwfan07 said:


> I think it's too early to evaluate the efficacy of your regimen,


Maybe so, but it seems to be very effective so far and I was keen to report it, if only for feedback on how I can optimize it. I'll update this thread in another few weeks and then some months down the line to report back.



> ...but one thing I'll say is that I personally don't believe selegiline once per week at that dosage is going to do much of anything. Its acute effects vary, and some people seem to feel nothing; certainly, it's all going to be gone by the next day, as it has a short half-life. You might try adding L-Tyrosine and DLPA on the selegiline days. The selegiline itself at that dose doesn't really do much, but it might prevent existing monoamine breakdown. If you add Tyrosine or DLPA, the selegiline will potentiate and prolong the biosynthetic effects of the former. That's where its main benefit is at those doses. I think you also ought to bump up to 5mg. If you experience results from that, you might try at least adding that combination once every other day.


I wonder if my use of aMT over the weekend is having some kind of interaction with the Selegiline on the Monday? I'll need to try not taking anything one weekend and see if there is any difference.

You're suggestion of adding L-Tyrosine or DLPA sounds interesting. I may well try that in due course. Thanks.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm not gonna combine amp with AMT anymore but cycle them as i dont really like the combination, good to say someone else is a fan of AMT.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Can you elaborate on the individual days? Like how much are you in remission on the stablon day compared to the picamillon day?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Can you elaborate on the individual days? Like how much are you in remission on the stablon day compared to the picamillon day?


Well at the moment my week days are all at a high level of mood and low level of social anxiety/general anxiety. (As are my weekends, but that's usual as that's when I take Phenibut/aMT) This has been the case for the past 2 full weeks since I started this regime where as before I was very up and down.

For the past 3 months i've been keeping a twice daily log of my mood and anxiety levels (using a 1-10 scale) along with what I've taken and dosage that day, and this is the first 2 weeks I've been at the good end of both scales for the full 14 days so it has stood out clearly as a significant positive change.

Once I have more data i'll be able to see more clearly if there is a direct collation with specific meds/supps on certain days being even better than others for me.

At the moment I just know overall it's working well for me.


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

Do you have bipolar disorder? Many people with social phobia do, even soft bipolar disorders.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

bmwfan07 said:


> Do you have bipolar disorder? Many people with social phobia do, even soft bipolar disorders.


No. The 'ups' I mentioned were due to chemical assistance. I wouldn't get them naturally. If I didn't take anything I'd just be generally depressed/anxious, as I've been since about 13, long before I took any types of drugs.

No doctor or psychiatrist has ever diagnosed me with bipolar either.


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## bmwfan07 (Jun 3, 2007)

ugh1979 said:


> No. The 'ups' I mentioned were due to chemical assistance. I wouldn't get them naturally. If I didn't take anything I'd just be generally depressed/anxious, as I've been since about 13, long before I took any types of drugs.
> 
> No doctor or psychiatrist has ever diagnosed me with bipolar either.


Hypomania is still hypomania, if that's what you're referring to, with the "chemical assistance." Depression that starts in the early teens is quite often of a bipolar nature, even subtly. I know the "label" can be intimidating, but it all it really means is that you might respond better to treatments designed for people with bipolar than for unipolar depression. I'm just wondering if you've ever tried a mood stabilizer like Lamictal, tegretol, etc. in conjunction with an anti-depressant.

FWIW, some people find that gabapentin/pregabalin has mood-stabilizing effects itself, since it acts somewhat similarly to an anti-convulsant. You might find the same.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

bmwfan07 said:


> Hypomania is still hypomania, if that's what you're referring to, with the "chemical assistance." Depression that starts in the early teens is quite often of a bipolar nature, even subtly. I know the "label" can be intimidating, but it all it really means is that you might respond better to treatments designed for people with bipolar than for unipolar depression. I'm just wondering if you've ever tried a mood stabilizer like Lamictal, tegretol, etc. in conjunction with an anti-depressant.
> 
> FWIW, some people find that gabapentin/pregabalin has mood-stabilizing effects itself, since it acts somewhat similarly to an anti-convulsant. You might find the same.


I guess so. I've always put my mood swings down to recreational drug use tbh as I don't get the swings nearly as much if I don't take anything. I've never tried a mood stabiliser but I think that could actually be helpful. I have a small stock of Pregabalin so will persevere using it, despite it not having the Phenibut like effect I was hoping from it. Thanks again, you've been most helpful.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Yes, an interesting regime you've worked out here. I'm gonna subscribe to your updates, as several of these (including picamilon and phenibut, trying stablon in a week or two here) have been particularly helpful for my personal scenario.

Do you find the racetams to have positive effects with this stack at all? For me, they tend to 'smooth out' the effects of everything a bit too much, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts...

Also, what effects (good/bad) do you notice from picamilon, phenibut, and how quickly do you find tolerance to set in with them?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

zodiac55 said:


> Do you find the racetams to have positive effects with this stack at all? For me, they tend to 'smooth out' the effects of everything a bit too much, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts...


I've not tried this regime while not also taking racetams so I can't say what difference they make. However, i'm getting very positive results from racetams as my concentration, drive, productivity and memory have notably improved.



> Also, what effects (good/bad) do you notice from picamilon, phenibut, and how quickly do you find tolerance to set in with them?


I've been using Phenibut once a week for the last 5 months and i've never had any tolerance issue. Picamilon is a more recent addition but my twice weekly regime for it shouldn't pose any tolerance problems. I don't think there actually is such an issue with tolerance when it comes to Picamilon anyway.

All effects from both have been good. There are no bad ones to report, apart from one time last year when I took Phenibut for 4 days in a row and then suffered a horrible withdrawal that lasted for 4 days. However that was a lesson learned and I've never repeated it. 2 days in a row max once a week for Phenibut seems to be my personal ideal that won't give me any issues with tolerance or withdrawal.


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## feelalone (May 1, 2010)

any cross tolerance do you feel between picamilon, pregabalin and phenibut? they all work on gaba receptors.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

How would you compare piccamilon with phenibut?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

feelalone said:


> any cross tolerance do you feel between picamilon, pregabalin and phenibut? they all work on gaba receptors.


Not at the moment as it's only been 2 weeks I've been on this regime. I'll report if there is later.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> How would you compare piccamilon with phenibut?


Like very lose dose Phenibut. Still worth it though as it does give me a pleasant long lasting feeling. Useful for weekday use as Phenibut can be a bit too close to, if not full on recreational.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

ugh1979 said:


> At the moment I just know overall it's working well for me.


Great to hear.. x)

Have you ever tried Neurontin (gabapentin) btw? I see you're using Pregabalin in your stack, which I've never tried -- but it appears to be somewhat similar to Neurontin in its mechanism of action...

How *has *Pregabalin been treating you overall? I see you are generally disappointed -- is it long-lasting, at least?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

zodiac55 said:


> Great to hear.. x)
> 
> Have you ever tried Neurontin (gabapentin) btw? I see you're using Pregabalin in your stack, which I've never tried -- but it appears to be somewhat similar to Neurontin in its mechanism of action...


No I've never tried Gabapentin. I don't think there is any advantage to it over Pregabalin from what I know.



> How *has *Pregabalin been treating you overall? I see you are generally disappointed -- is it long-lasting, at least?


It's been OK but, i'm not sure i'll bother replacing it when it runs out. I find it's effects subtle, even at high doses, and not as positive as I'd like. It can make me a little drunk feeling which I don't like. As someone has pointed out though, it can have a mood stabilising effect, which is something I have noticed in general, so maybe that is what it is doing for me so is of value.

The regime is still going well and i'm feeling good but i've run out of Stablon. I'm going to leave it a few weeks before getting more to see if there is any difference. I think cycling out/in 1 drug/supp at a time will be helpful in establishing what is worth sticking with and what can be dropped/changed.

I've already dropped Aniracetam as I ran out of it and it's not made any difference, but I have added 1000mg L-Tyrosine daily since I started.

So far it's been the best time of my life and all very stable mood wise which is a nice change.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Gotcha. Awesome.. yeah, I agree on the cycling. Especially with a stack like this... the fine-tuning, though a bit tedious at times, is definitely a welcome (/necessary) process.

Be safe... keep us posted.. etc.!
-z


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

zodiac55 said:


> Gotcha. Awesome.. yeah, I agree on the cycling. Especially with a stack like this... the fine-tuning, though a bit tedious at times, is definitely a welcome (/necessary) process.
> 
> Be safe... keep us posted.. etc.!
> -z


In light of the post regarding Stablon being a benzo I see I was right to only take it once a week. However, as I say, i've stopped taking it as i've run out, but may introduce it again once i'm further settled with this regime and will be more attune to adding or removing meds/supps.

It's all still going very well though. It's now about a month i've been on it and i'm feeling the most emotionally stable/well I've ever done. Even after a heavy party session last weekend I was totally fine. No dip, which is just what I'm after. My SA has consistently been low as well. Still some more room for improvement on that side but I'm definitely going in the right direction.

Just to confirm my current regime:

*Monday *- Selegiline 5mg (up from 2.5mg after advice)
*Tuesday *- Picamilon 1000mg
*Wednesday *- Nothing, tbc if I will restack with Stablon.
*Thursday *- Picamilon 1000mg
*Friday *- 150mg Pregabalin
*Saturday *- Phenibut 2x 2000mg/aMT 2x 50mg (AM/PM)
*Sunday *- Phenibut 2x 2000mg/aMT 2x 50mg/MXE 2x 50mg (AM/PM)

I also have a daily stack of:
3500mg Piracetam
1000mg L-Tyrosine (it was 500mg Aniracetam but I ran out so dropped it. At the same time I subbed in 1000mg L-Tyrosine and have noticed it's benefits to be better than Aniracetam so am keeping the change)
1000mg DMAE
250mg Bacopa
2000mg Fish Oil
A-Z multi-vit


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Congrats on your continued good results, man.. x)

As for tianeptine, I'd have to agree with jim morrison's reply on that tianeptine thread, actually... it's got the structural features but its anxiolytic action is more than likely not GABA related.

That's not to say that I'm a true authority on the matter, heh.  but I did give it a short regular-basis trial @ 75mg/day to see if it showed certain relevant effects for my anxiety/hedonic-drive criteria, and it wasn't really what I was looking for. Also, it wears off very quickly (as everyone observes) -- but if you noticed benefit from it being in the mix at all, then that's cool if you get it back in there.

Feel free to keep us posted...


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Quick update on this stack. Everything is going very very well. I've never been better or more stable. I added Stablon back in and while it's effects are subtle, they do seem present and positive so will keep on with it for the time being.

I'm going to add 2000mg Taurine to the daily stack as of Monday, and switch the DMAE to Choline Bitartrate, and see if there is any further I can go with this self very effective self treatment.

*Edit 26/04:*

Monday - 5mg Selegiline
Tuesday - 1000mg Picamilon
Wednesday - 25mg Stablon
Thursday - 1000mg Picamilon
Friday - 150mg Pregabalin
Saturday - 2000mg Phenibut or 50mg Baclofen (plus occasionally 50mg aMT x2 (AM/PM))
Sunday - 2000mg Phenibut or 50mg Baclofen (plus occasionally 50mg aMT x2 + 50mg MXE x2 (AM/PM))

I also have a daily stack of:
3500mg Piracetam
2000mg Taurine
500mg Choline
250mg Bacopa
2000mg Fish Oil
A-Z multi-vit

+ 1000mg L-Tyrosine occasionally.

I've been on this regime (plus/minus a few tweaks) for the last 5 months and it's been very very successful. I've never been better. It's just the right combination to keep me depression/GAD/SA free and make me pro-social 7 days a week, with the pro-social element focused at the weekend when I do most my socialising.

There are no issues with tolerance/withdrawal either. It's a winning combination for me that I wish I'd worked out a long long time ago after many years of failed prescription medication.


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## feelalone (May 1, 2010)

ugh1979 said:


> *Edit 26/04:*
> 
> Monday - 5mg Selegiline
> Tuesday - 1000mg Picamilon
> ...


Hi ugh1979, I noticed you added baclofen in your regimen, as an alternative to phenibut. 
I was wondering why to not add baclofen in your regimen, not as an alternative but as an addition to phenibut (although in a different day); do you think there could be some cross tolerance between them?


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

How works aMT for ADHD ?


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## Naked Ape (Apr 5, 2010)

Hi ugh1979, interesting regimen, but Picamillion has an half life of 30 minutes.
You have a lot at the beginning and then disappears quickly, do you really get a stable effect along the day from it?

About stablon, I read that you build tolerance and withdrawal is unpleasant, but using it once a week could maybe avoid this.

Anyhow your regimen sounds good to me, I also have pregabalin and I also believe in a regimen where you don't stick with anything, but you cycle many things along the week.

By the way I tried pregabalin only at 150 mg dose, does it have effect also at 75 mg?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnG said:


> How works aMT for ADHD ?


Drool


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

feelalone said:


> Hi ugh1979, I noticed you added baclofen in your regimen, as an alternative to phenibut.
> I was wondering why to not add baclofen in your regimen, not as an alternative but as an addition to phenibut (although in a different day); do you think there could be some cross tolerance between them?


One reason is because they both have a recreational edge that I don't want to have out with the weekends. Saying that though, I also wouldn't want to run the risk of becoming tolerant to Phenibut due to cross tolerance with Baclofen, or risk withdrawals by taking either of them more than 2 days a week.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

JohnG said:


> How works aMT for ADHD ?


I don't have ADHD so couldn't really say.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Naked Ape said:


> Hi ugh1979, interesting regimen, but Picamillion has an half life of 30 minutes.
> You have a lot at the beginning and then disappears quickly, do you really get a stable effect along the day from it?


I tend to notice it most in the morning, so maybe it is the case that the effects in the afternoon are just residual.



> About stablon, I read that you build tolerance and withdrawal is unpleasant, but using it once a week could maybe avoid this.


Yes that appears to be the case for me.



> By the way I tried pregabalin only at 150 mg dose, does it have effect also at 75 mg?


I've only tried 150mg+ doses so couldn't say.


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## feelalone (May 1, 2010)

ugh1979 said:


> One reason is because they both have a recreational edge that I don't want to have out with the weekends. Saying that though, I also wouldn't want to run the risk of becoming tolerant to Phenibut due to cross tolerance with Baclofen, or risk withdrawals by taking either of them more than 2 days a week.


thanks, for me this thread is always very interesting. My regimen is very similar to yours.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

ugh1979 said:


> I don't have ADHD so couldn't really say.


Did you noticed improvements in focus and cognition at low doses (5mg) ?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

JohnG said:


> Did you noticed improvements in focus and cognition at low doses (5mg) ?


The lowest dose i've tried is 10mg, and I did experience some focus and increase in cognition, but I experience even more at higher doses. It makes me very creative and focused which is one thing I really like about it.

However, note that aMT is a drug that has very very different effects on different people. It turns some people in to a mess at 50mg doses.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

Yes, this drug scares me because of psychedelic potential, and oxidative stress caused by ammines release. I'll give it at try, in the range of 1-5 mg, or I'll switch to re-uptake inhibition that looks more safe in the long term.


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## podizzle (Nov 11, 2003)

good stuff i take a lot of this stuff as well. right now im taking taurine 3g, curcumin 6g, selegeline 2.5 eod, fish oil 7g, magnesium 1g chelated, aminos, & low dose thc/cannibinol... none of it really does much for my sa other than marijuana but i figure its good for my health. i'd like to add some tyrosine but im concerned it will synergize with the selegeline and have a bad interaction with curcumin as i dont think you're supposed to combine those.


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## Bacon (Jul 4, 2010)

After being on numerous Meds i found a combo that works  20 MG Paxil 150 MG Seroquel XR between .5 MG to 2 MG Of Xanax Doxylamine + Benadryl (OTC but seem to potenize the xanax a bit) Nexium for that pesky heartburn because im in a horrible mood when i have it This Combo works Excellently for me! But everyone is different.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

ugh1979 said:


> The lowest dose i've tried is 10mg, and I did experience some focus and increase in cognition, but I experience even more at higher doses. It makes me very creative and focused which is one thing I really like about it.
> 
> However, note that aMT is a drug that has very very different effects on different people. It turns some people in to a mess at 50mg doses.


Low doses causes harsh down?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

JohnG said:


> Low doses causes harsh down?


No. You don't get a come down with high dose aMT, never mind low dose.


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## feelalone (May 1, 2010)

About phenibut I find this report on another forum, it sounds interesting:



> 2-4 capsules Magnolia bark (buy "Hou Po" which is Chinese magnolia bark granules used to make an herbal tea) The granules are small enough to cap yourself and you can get 100 grams for $25 with shipping. Each self capped capsule holds like 450 mg or so, so thats 3-6 months worth. Look up some studies on GABA receptor sensitivity and honokiol, the active compound. I have found it can double the effects of phenibut (truly, i have tried this with others and they agree). The studies were done with rats using muscimol, another GABA agonist. They quoted 2 to 5 times potentiation i think. My brother said he noticed a 75% increase, for me it is a doubling effect. This is also i belive the strongest herbal anti-cortisol aid available besides 7-OH, which i have not tried due to cost. There is also Bacopa, but from what i've read of peoples experiences magnolia bark beats bacopa hands down in Cushing's Syndrome support boards.


what do you think?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Interesting. I see there is a product which contains Phenibut and Magnolia Bark.

*MRM Relax-All*

Ingredients: 
Calcium (citrate/carbonate) 500mg
Magnesium (oxide/glycinate) 250mg
MyoCalm TM (Proprietary Blend) 1,810 mg
Jujube (2% jujubosides)
Beta-phenyl-gamma-aminobutyric acid (Phenibut)
Magnolia Bark (2% honokiol & magnolol)
SunTheanineTM (L-Theaanine) 
Valerian Root (1% valernic acids)

I also see that Magnolia Root effects GABA-A, so it could be a very interesting combo. Maybe it's not actually potentiating the Phenibut, but it's adding GABA-A action? That added to the GABA-B effects of Phenibut could be a potent mix.


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## dustbunnies (May 18, 2011)

How do you guys get all those different meds? Do your psychiatrists give you prescriptions for all those?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

dustbunnies said:


> How do you guys get all those different meds? Do your psychiatrists give you prescriptions for all those?


My psychiatrist had never heard about most of what I take, never mind prescribe it.

I order everything from the internet.


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## dustbunnies (May 18, 2011)

^I see. How do you know it's not fake/diluted?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

dustbunnies said:


> ^I see. How do you know it's not fake/diluted?


I've been using the same vendors for years with no complaints.

There are sites you can check to see if vendors are dodgy.


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## dustbunnies (May 18, 2011)

Oh I see. I'll keep that in mind when I lose my insurance. Thanks!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I wish i had like several things working for my SA but there's nothing differend then stimulants, it would be cool to switch med sometimes.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Further to the talk about about MRM Relax-All's ingredients, I added Magnolia Bark extract to the stack over the last few days. I trialled it on it's own and at the dosages I tried it gave mild but present anxiolytic effect that lasted a few hours. I might try some higher doses to see if I can get anything more from it.

One of the reasons I wanted to trial it is because it is a GABA-a agonist, (albeit a fairly weak one), and could have some good synergy along with my stacks Phenibut/Baclofen induced GABA-b action.

My 'holy grail' is a stack/med that acts on GABA-a/b and is sustainable and suitable for me.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Honokiol and GABA:


> Phytomedicine. 2011 May 9. [Epub ahead of print]
> Effect of honokiol on activity of GAD(65) and GAD(67) in the cortex and hippocampus of mice.
> Ku TH, Lee YJ, Wang SJ, Fan CH, Tien LT.
> Source
> ...





> Honokiol and magnolol selectively interact with GABAA receptor subtypes in vitro.
> Ai J, Wang X, Nielsen M.
> Source
> Department of Psychopharmacology, Research Institute of Biological Psychiatry, St. Hans Hospital, Roskilde, Denmark. [email protected]
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> Br J Pharmacol. 2011 Apr 26. doi: 10.1111/j.1476-5381.2011.01456.x. [Epub ahead of print]
> Magnolol, a major bioactive constituent of the bark of Magnolia officinalis, exerts anti-epileptic effects via GABA-benzodiazepine receptor complex in mice.
> Chen C, Tan R, Qu W, Wu Z, Wang Y, Urade Y, Huang Z.
> Source
> ...





> Phytother Res. 2009 Sep;23(9):1340-4.
> Magnolol enhances pentobarbital-induced sleeping behaviors: possible involvement of GABAergic systems.
> Ma H, Kim CS, Ma Y, Nam SY, Kim DS, Woo SS, Hong JT, Oh KW.
> Source
> ...





> Honokiol and magnolol increase the number of [3H] muscimol binding sites three-fold in rat forebrain membranes in vitro using a filtration assay, by allosterically increasing the affinities of low-affinity sites.
> Squires RF, Ai J, Witt MR, Kahnberg P, Saederup E, Sterner O, Nielsen M.
> Source
> Center for Neurochemistry, The Nathan Kline Institute for Psychiatric Research Orangeburg, NY 10962, USA. [email protected]
> ...


So it appears they also might potentiate the action of GABAB agonists according to that one promosing report.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Interesting. Thanks for posting those up Wes.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Quick update, 9 months on and this regime is still going well. This has definitely been my best ever year. 

I've made a couple of small changes like dropping the Selegiline as it was too subtle to tell if it was doing anything, and I've dropped the Piracetam as I decided after further trials on and off using it that it was also too subtle to be worth continuing.

Current regime:

Monday - 150mg Pregabalin
Tuesday - 250mg Picamilon
Wednesday - 150mg Pregabalin
Thursday - 250mg Picamilon
Friday - 150mg Pregabalin
Saturday - 2000mg Phenibut or 60mg Baclofen (plus occasionally 50mg aMT x2 (AM/PM))
Sunday - 2000mg Phenibut or 60mg Baclofen (plus occasionally 50mg aMT x2 + 50mg MXE x2 (AM/PM))

The Picamilon is the least effective by far so I may drop that and replace it with Etizolam shortly.

I also have a daily stack of:
1000mg L-Tyrosine
2000mg Taurine
750mg L-Glutamine
2000mg Fish Oil
A-Z multi-vit


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## DK3 (Sep 21, 2011)

ugh1979 said:


> After a couple of awful years of SSRI's, then nothing for 6 months as i'd given up on medication, then buspirone for 2 months, I've finally found a stack of supps/meds that works for me.
> 
> For the last 2 weeks it has made me consistently happier than i've ever been, and as a bonus, improved my cognitive abilities. I knew how to make me happy/anxiety free for a day or two at a time by using recreational drugs but what I really wanted was to acheive a high level of happiness and low anxiety/social anxiety every day and start being able to move forward and improve my life overall.
> 
> ...


I'm astonished, because I discovered the exact same thing only a couple of months ago.

I discovered the Selegiline,Stablon,Picamilon,Piracetam,Choline combo on Erowid which was recommended by someone as a nootropic and "feel good" stack. In addition to my social anxiety/stress I've been suffering with chronic lethargy and inability to concentrate on mental tasks such as work and studying. Doing anything creative has been impossible for months. So I decided to give the stack a go. The person who discovered it had experimented with a number of different combinations (see link below).

I was only able to get a small supply of Stablon which is quite expensive so I only lasted 2 weeks on it, but it was a great 2 weeks and I found myself far more productive and relaxed than usual.

I think you're definitely on the right track and you have inspired me to give it another go and this time stick to it for longer, regardless of the cost.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=14231


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks for the link, looks interesting.

Make sure you read my latest posts in this thread as I've made some changes to the original stack as quoted, and do it with little expense.

Stablon was interesting but a bit too expensive to justify it for example.


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## DK3 (Sep 21, 2011)

ugh1979 said:


> Thanks for the link, looks interesting.
> 
> Make sure you read my latest posts in this thread as I've made some changes to the original stack as quoted, and do it with little expense.
> 
> Stablon was interesting but a bit too expensive to justify it for example.


Woah yes I've finished reading the rest of your posts now, I see you've dropped everything from the meds except your GABA-acting substances and your aMT for weekends.

What you basically have now is an alternative benzo effect and the social lubricant/stimulatory aMT at weekends for socialising. I think you mentioned that is what you wanted, a GABA-A/B without having to use benzos.

Well I'm happy it's still working for you after all this time, and all the time you have spent searching. This also now offers hope to others who can perhaps try a similar approach. It's certainly given me something to think about.

I'm going through a bit of a rough patch myself and feel I have come back to square one, so to speak. I got some benzos (Xanax & Valium) this week after giving up on alternative medications and trying different approaches, mainly because of the cost and mainly because my anxiety has got much worse lately and I just wanted a quick fix that I know works.

My plan though is to keep these benzos for strictly occasional emergencies like dentist, doctor visit, those big scary events, not day to day anxiety. Just having them in the medicine cabinet is reassuring. So now I'm going to try something similar to your stack, but I will probably keep to your original stack to begin as I have depression and cognitive issues at moment. Maybe then when my situation/mood improves I can move to something like your second stack.

P.S. I'm intrigued by the aMT I have never heard of it before, just been reading up on it and trying to find out where I may lay my hands on some, fancy trying it myself.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

DK3 said:


> Woah yes I've finished reading the rest of your posts now, I see you've dropped everything from the meds except your GABA-acting substances and your aMT for weekends.
> 
> What you basically have now is an alternative benzo effect and the social lubricant/stimulatory aMT at weekends for socialising. I think you mentioned that is what you wanted, a GABA-A/B without having to use benzos.
> 
> ...


I have a severe GABA deficiency so I'm always looking for viable ways to boost it. As all GABA meds have issues with tolerance and dependency this alternating rotating regime is my way round that.

It wasn't a case on not wanting to use benzo's, it was more a case of using what I could get, as benzo's are impossible for me to get without too much effort or be prescribed. I've only recently discovered Etizolam (a benzo analogue) is legal in my country so i'm thinking of adding that instead of Picamilon. Again it will just be 2 days a week so as to avoid tolerance/dependency.



> P.S. I'm intrigued by the aMT I have never heard of it before, just been reading up on it and trying to find out where I may lay my hands on some, fancy trying it myself.


Which country do you live in?


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## freud (Sep 21, 2011)

Ever thought about adding DXM or Memantine to the regimen to "reset your brain chemistry"? Also what i said in another posting, Thujone from common sage tea, wich is a GABAA receptor antagonist, could help to get more out of your GABA receptors.


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## DK3 (Sep 21, 2011)

ugh1979 said:


> I have a severe GABA deficiency so I'm always looking for viable ways to boost it. As all GABA meds have issues with tolerance and dependency this alternating rotating regime is my way round that.
> 
> It wasn't a case on not wanting to use benzo's, it was more a case of using what I could get, as benzo's are impossible for me to get without too much effort or be prescribed. I've only recently discovered Etizolam (a benzo analogue) is legal in my country so i'm thinking of adding that instead of Picamilon. Again it will just be 2 days a week so as to avoid tolerance/dependency.
> 
> Which country do you live in?


I'm in the UK. How about yourself?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

DK3 said:


> I'm in the UK. How about yourself?


UK as well. Just PM'd you.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

freud said:


> Ever thought about adding DXM or Memantine to the regimen to "reset your brain chemistry"? Also what i said in another posting, Thujone from common sage tea, wich is a GABAA receptor antagonist, could help to get more out of your GABA receptors.


I've tried DXM a few times before but really didn't get on with it. It just gave me really blurry vision and not much else that lasted for far too long to be worth it.

I've thought about Memantine but it's too pricey. You do need to use it quite regularly don't you?

I've tried a few natural GABAa agonists (like magnolia bark extracts) but they didn't do much. I dislike all teas so probably wouldn't like drinking sage tea.

Thanks for your suggestions though.


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## freud (Sep 21, 2011)

How much DXM did you take? And the effect lasted really long? Then you are a slow metabolizer. Just take something like 20-30mg once a day and you'll notice not much, except, that the other stuff your taking should feel a little stronger. Depends, but for me it works. And Thujone is quite strong. I made an extract with 50% ethanol and one little cup and there was a noticeable speedy effect. Kind of like the opposite of benzos but not unpleasant. It could reverse your tolerance to all GABAergics a bit.


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## DK3 (Sep 21, 2011)

*Two unusual aids for anxiety*

I will tell you two things which often help me when I'm feeling quite anxious, almost as effective as benzo for quick calming effect..

Twinnings "Clease" tea ..a cup of this and I'm super chilled and relaxed, it puts me into a deep meditative state. So I generally drink it before meditating. The tea itself doesn't contain anything remarkable, spearmint, nettle and milk thistle, it's a detox tea for the liver and other organs. I'm guessing the fact it's green tea and contains high levels of L-Theanine, an amino acid found mostly in green tea oddly enough. It's said to have a calming relaxing effect on the brain. I should drink more of this but I'm a sucker for black tea and love my morning caffeine-fix.

The other thing I've noticed is.. when I'm quite stressed and anxious, having one of my fruit smoothies really calms me down and boosts my confidence a bit. I tend to skip meals and eat irregular so what I do is make these smoothies as meal supplements and I use a body-building protein supplement which contains almost the full spectrum of amino acids and loads of vitamins and minerals. I'm sure it's the amino acids/protein, and probably all those micro-nutrients which is having the effect. Of course, it could be that my blood sugar is just falling too low and that is what makes my anxiety worse and just consuming all those liquid nutrients enables it go rapidly into bloodstream and stabilise blood sugar levels. I will have to experiment more!


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## freud (Sep 21, 2011)

Yeah, green tea is nice, i got all kinds of green tea at home. Chinese, Japanese and Darjeeling. I can't describe its impact but i just feel healthier and better if i drink green tea every day. You should really try to drink it once a day. And if i eat a "full-spectrum protein meal" i also feel... Relaxed? Protein is one of the main factors and unsaturated fatty acids.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

freud said:


> How much DXM did you take? And the effect lasted really long? Then you are a slow metabolizer. Just take something like 20-30mg once a day and you'll notice not much, except, that the other stuff your taking should feel a little stronger. Depends, but for me it works. And Thujone is quite strong. I made an extract with 50% ethanol and one little cup and there was a noticeable speedy effect. Kind of like the opposite of benzos but not unpleasant. It could reverse your tolerance to all GABAergics a bit.


They were recreational doses. It was more the after effect that lasted a really long time. The lingering dissociative feeling that isn't pleasant and makes me unable to function in the normal world.

I'll keep trying a therapeutic dose regime in mind for the future though.

I don't have much tolerance to GABAergics since I rotate them so reversing tolerance isn't really something I have to consider at this point.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

DK3 said:


> I will tell you two things which often help me when I'm feeling quite anxious, almost as effective as benzo for quick calming effect..
> 
> Twinnings "Clease" tea ..a cup of this and I'm super chilled and relaxed, it puts me into a deep meditative state. So I generally drink it before meditating. The tea itself doesn't contain anything remarkable, spearmint, nettle and milk thistle, it's a detox tea for the liver and other organs. I'm guessing the fact it's green tea and contains high levels of L-Theanine, an amino acid found mostly in green tea oddly enough. It's said to have a calming relaxing effect on the brain. I should drink more of this but I'm a sucker for black tea and love my morning caffeine-fix.


I've trialled a run of L-Theanine in the past but it didn't do anything for me. I know some people have decent experiences with it though.


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## freud (Sep 21, 2011)

ugh1979 said:


> I don't have much tolerance to GABAergics since I rotate them so reversing tolerance isn't really something I have to consider at this point.


Just in case you want to reduce your regimen. Could help then...


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

freud said:


> Just in case you want to reduce your regimen. Could help then...


My doses are all low already so they can't really go much lower. Reducing them to nothing and taking DXM/Memantine instead isn't going to work, as I'd still have the underlying GABA deficiency I've always had which DXM/Mementine would be of no help with.

I'll definitely bear it in mind for the future if I do have to increase my doses though. However, 9 months on with no need to I'm pretty happy I've got a reasonably well working sustainable long term solution here.


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## DK3 (Sep 21, 2011)

ugh1979 said:


> I've trialled a run of L-Theanine in the past but it didn't do anything for me. I know some people have decent experiences with it though.


I had the same experience too. I went through a period of intense research and experimentation with GABA substances...buying everything I could get my hands on and I tried all the amino acids (purchased bulk powders) individually in different combinations, including L-Theanine. By itself, it didn't have much effect even in mega doses..Yet it works so well in green tea. I think it's like vitamins and minerals, often they do very little or don't work at all in isolation, but in real foods, with flavonoids and enzymes etc the body is able to absorb them and utilise them better.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Interesting. I'll maybe look in to that then.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Time for an update to this.

I was taking:



> Monday - 150mg Pregabalin
> Tuesday - 250mg Picamilon
> Wednesday - 150mg Pregabalin
> Thursday - 250mg Picamilon
> ...


But have recently changed to the following:

Daily:
3x 200mg Pregabalin
160mg Bedranol SR (aka long release propranalol)
2000mg Taurine
2000mg Fish Oil
A-Z multi-vit

Some Saturday/Sunday's:
2000mg Phenibut or 60mg Baclofen
60-120mg aMT
MXE (dose changes, but it's not taken often these days)

PRN use:
1 -1 .5mg Etizolam (not taken often)

I can report that it's working great and noticeably better than my old stack so will see how it goes.

I dropped the Picamilon as it's effects were so weak and my p.doc said I should try going on to Pregabalin daily to get the best from it. I know there can be issues with tolerance when taking Pregabalin daily but two doctors I've seen seem happy to prescribe it for daily use so i'm going to roll with it for the time being. The doc also suggested Bedranol SR which i'm happy to take as it helps any physical elements of SA which in turn help mental ones.

I've dropped a couple of the other supplements as well as I didn't feel they were doing enough to justify repeatedly buying them.

I know this new regime goes against the idea of my original rotating stack to avoid tolerance to any one drug, but i'm going to give daily Pregabalin a go and see if it works for me long term.


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## feelalone (May 1, 2010)

I find aMT enough interesting and effective for my SA, but I always have some problems with dosage, sometimes I take too much, sometimes i take a dosage not adequate. How do you manage to correctly weigh your dosage?
I have a digital scale, but it doens't work very well.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

feelalone said:


> I find aMT enough interesting and effective for my SA, but I always have some problems with dosage, sometimes I take too much, sometimes i take a dosage not adequate. How do you manage to correctly weigh your dosage?
> I have a digital scale, but it doens't work very well.


Well the obvious answer to that is get a better digital scale.  You need at least a 0.001 scale to accurately measure mg doses. The usual 0.01 scales just aren't accurate enough.


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## feelalone (May 1, 2010)

ugh1979 said:


> Well the obvious answer to that is get a better digital scale.  You need at least a 0.001 scale to accurately measure mg doses. The usual 0.01 scales just aren't accurate enough.


Thanks for the obvious answer 
Could you send me a pm with a link to a good digital scale I could buy on internet? thanks a lot


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## jeffwoods14 (Jan 10, 2017)

*Can I ask where you got the selegiline* ?


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## jeffwoods14 (Jan 10, 2017)

Can I ask where you got the selegiline ?


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