# Do you think it's easier for girls with SA to get bfs than guys with SA to get gfs?



## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

It seems like there are a lot more girls on here with boyfriends than guys with girlfriends. I guess because guys are usually expected to make the first move. And girls can just sit around and wait for the guy to make the move. Any thoughts?


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## AstronautsGrapes (Sep 29, 2009)

shy girls are cute.
shy guys are pathetic.

*shrugs*


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## Still Waters (Sep 18, 2008)

Can you feel the impending doom yet? This is the type of thread that always starts an uproar around here. - Flee as quickly as you can!


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

oh... i didn't mean to cause trouble..


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## Wrathchild824 (Apr 22, 2010)

hi im joe said:


> shy girls are cute.
> shy guys are pathetic.
> 
> *shrugs*


Absolutely. 'Nuff said.


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## STKinTHEmud (Jun 21, 2009)

Uh oh. 

For any guys who are called chauvinistic or shallow or are hated or feel bad about themselves when you make a generalization, know that I understand, and I've got your back.

But yes, I have female friends with more severe SA than I do, and they have no problems getting a bf. So my experience seems to confirm this.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Of course. It is the way nature is... unless your unattractive.


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## theCARS1979 (Apr 26, 2010)

Yes I know for sure it is. Ive had numerous failures


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

In before thread lock baby!


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## rumjungle (Feb 13, 2009)

Perfectionist said:


> In before thread lock baby!


Seconded!

/me gets out popcorn and waits


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

I didn't mean to offend anyone... thought it could be a good discussion...


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

^I'm sure no offense was meant, or has yet occured. Unfortunately this discussion has happened many times before, and the thread usually implodes into name calling and heated arguments about who has SA worse. Then the thread gets banned, and a new thread gets started about WHY the thread was banned, and then THAT thread is banned too.

It's great.


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## NotRealName (Feb 28, 2010)

Thread title is truth, not all the time, but majority of the time.


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## lonelygirl88 (Dec 25, 2009)

it's really the same. if you keep to yourself all the time and lack social outlets...(no matter how you look or how great of a person you may be)...you will be perpetually single. 
SA gets in the way of social events, clubs, making friends, etc.
it's hard to stand much of a shot if your not even in the game.


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

Perfectionist said:


> ^I'm sure no offense was meant, or has yet occured. Unfortunately this discussion has happened many times before, and the thread usually implodes into name calling and heated arguments about who has SA worse. Then the thread gets banned, and a new thread gets started about WHY the thread was banned, and then THAT thread is banned too.
> 
> It's great.


Come on people... lets prove we can be civil about this...


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## mcmuffinme (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm a girl and I've never had a boyfriend, and reading that most girls with SA shouldn't have problems finding someone makes me feel a bit more depressed about my situation :/


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## Magaly (Mar 8, 2010)

mcmuffinme said:


> reading that most girls with SA shouldn't have problems finding someone makes me feel a bit more depressed about my situation :/


same here


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

I think both have problems with it. No one said that girls with SA shouldn't have problems with it. I've definitely had problems with it, but I've been successful too. I still feel like all the boyfriends that I've had have been flukes, like I can't believe I was actually able to get into that situation. You just have to keep your eyes open. And don't let this depress you, because I know this is something we all have problems with, both girls and guys.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

mcmuffinme said:


> I'm a girl and I've never had a boyfriend, and reading that most girls with SA shouldn't have problems finding someone makes me feel a bit more depressed about my situation :/


I wouldn't let that bother you. It takes a somewhat social part on the woman's behalf to allow someone to come into their lives as well. It is just a little different than what guys have to go through, but they have their perks and cons for each sex I would assume.

Why thread lock this page? She is just asking a question. Relax.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

I recently did two polls on the subject, knowing full well what the outcome would be.

In one I asked males if they had a wife, GF, BF, domestic partner, 2 or more of the above, or were all alone. I asked the same questions of females.

Comparing the vote by the ladies to the vote by the gentlemen clearly and dramatically demonstrated what we all know to be true.

This isn't to imply that women with SA have it easy -- nobody with SA has it easy. It merely acknowledges the fact that gender differences exist.

Threads of this nature often end up being locked, though there is nothing sexist about simply recognizing that gender differences exist. Sometimes the difference will favor one gender over the other. In this case men lose big time. Other times being a man has advantages: for example, men don't typically worry about being raped when they walk down a dark street alone, while this seems a fairly common concern of women.

It's easy to see why men have a disadvantage here. Men are generally expected to make the first move and those with SA generally suck at doing so. As far as I can tell, women tend to find confidence a very attractive trait, yet it's a trait that those with SA tend to seriously lack.

A shy girl can be called demure and it's even sort of cute that she's shy much of society may think. Can you think of any term for shy men that's not insulting? Wuss is the least impolite one I can think of. Wuss is a variant on another term used for shy men, a term that sometimes preceeds the word "cat" and which would be censored by SAS.


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## Dark0 (Apr 17, 2010)

Well the chances for females are much higher I believe, because most of the time the guy has to make the first move. So a girl who isn't even looking for a bf can be approached by some guy who finds her attractive. For males it's harder, because you have to make the first move yourself and approach the girl you like and with SA it's hell of a hard thing to do.


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

I have another some-what related question. I've noticed a lot of guys on here talking about having trouble talking to girls, just in general, not always in a romantic way. Do other girls on here have more trouble talking to guys than other girls? I know I do... I get intimidated by guys very easily.


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## drealm (Jul 7, 2009)

Whitney said:


> It seems like there are a lot more girls on here with boyfriends than guys with girlfriends. I guess because guys are usually expected to make the first move. And girls can just sit around and wait for the guy to make the move. Any thoughts?


I'm glad this thread was started by a *woman*. Had it been a male, this would already be WWIII. While this "woman have it easier" theme is a constant on SAS and likely traceable back circa _SAS 2000_, this is the first time in history I've witnessed a *woman* saying it. For this reason I'd like to commemorate Whitney with a medal of honor for seeking objectivity over political correctness in her fact finding mission.

I'd also like to take this moment to comment on the legendary gender rivalry here. Men don't get bitter because women have dating "easier". Men get bitter because women refuse to _admit_ they have dating "easier".

Whitney is a shining example of a woman I'd normally hate on SAS. But with one simple acknowledgment towards the wounded warriors here, she's transformed me from a hater into a supporter and sympathizer.

In spite of Whitney having multiple boyfriends all of which she herself implies she got through no effort of her own, but purely by fluke of someone approaching her, I'm not angry. Normally her admission of dating experience alone would launch my keyboard across the room and leave me going into a fit of rage, which can only be quenched by carving another notch in my arm. Thankfully tonight I don't need to do that, because she broke the spell. I could care less whether Whitney has had a hundred boyfriends or one, all my anger and frustration is relieved singularly by her admittance that she's got it easier.



UltraShy said:


> I recently did two polls on the subject, knowing full well what the outcome would be.
> 
> In one I asked males if they had a wife, GF, BF, domestic partner, 2 or more of the above, or were all alone. I asked the same questions of females.
> 
> ...


And I'd reckon the poll discrepancy would be greater if a minority of SAS women weren't stacked up against the brute force of every bitter lonely male minute man on SAS. By one woman's post, most woman didn't even bother to participate in the polls, as they intuitively knew it would spell out the obvious. I suppose some people have no interest in facts when those particular facts don't suit them.


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## SusanStorm (Oct 27, 2006)

Whitney said:


> I have another some-what related question. I've noticed a lot of guys on here talking about having trouble talking to girls, just in general, not always in a romantic way. Do other girls on here have more trouble talking to guys than other girls? I know I do... I get intimidated by guys very easily.


Yes,I'm very very anxious around men and especially if I like them..I hardly say a word.Kind of weird that I've managed to find bfs.I think many would be scared off about a girl who avoids them and don't say much..lol..

I also feel that some men can misunderstand shy girls,thinking that they're doormats or something which usually isn't true.But anyway this discussion has been up a million times already and SA is hard for everyone no matter what your gender is.And btw,just because you manage to get a bf or gf it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be any happier than you are when your single.


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## mooncake (Jan 29, 2008)

Dark0 said:


> Well the chances for females are much higher I believe, because most of the time the guy has to make the first move. So a girl who isn't even looking for a bf can be approached by some guy who finds her attractive. For males it's harder, because you have to make the first move yourself and approach the girl you like and with SA it's hell of a hard thing to do.


I agree. Due to the fact that males are typically expected to do the asking out, I do think that getting into a relationship can be harder for them. I'm in a relationship now, as a female, and I'm sure that if I were of the opposite sex this surely wouldn't be the case - I just wouldn't have the balls to ask anyone out, to be honest. My boyfriend was the one who did all the initiating, all the chasing. If he hadn't been so forward with things and upfront about his feelings then I would have been too anxious to do anything about it, probably. In this respect, I do feel for males looking for relationships.

However, being a girl with severe SA doesn't make the pain of feeling so restricted and possibly worthless any less. If you're too scared to even leave the house for many years, then a relationship is going to be equally hard to find no matter what sex you are. That's why as a female it's sometimes hard to hear insensitively worded rants about how girls have it easier. If you're a female who never gets approached by guys, has never been in a relationship etc., or can't manage to even leave the house much, then it can be frustrating to be told that you have a much better chance at finding yourself a partner, because it feels like anything but that at the time.To have a chance at meeting anyone you have to put yourself out there to some extent, so to be so severely socially anxious to the point of avoiding all social events or opportunities, like I used to be, means that you're pretty much in the same boat whether you're male or female, I believe.

I also think it's worth saying though, that females possibly have their own, unique set of worries if they're approached by someone. Does he genuinely like me? Is he just trying to use me? etc. Males obviously may face the same questions, but as a female I think I feel very vulnerable to being messed around. Also, about the 'shy' thing often said about socially anxious women and how it can be seen as an attractive trait... well, sure it could be viewed as some kind of endearing quirk, but when my SA was at its worst, I can assure you I wasn't really viewed as 'shy', just more of 'freak' and the butt of jokes. It's not everyone who can pull off the mysterious or shy card as something alluring,

Anyway, I'm thinking that this thread will probably get locked at some point. But I think it would be a shame not to be able to talk about the topic maturely, just because of the few bitter, childish posts that inevitably pop up all the time. It's saddening when talking about SA slides into some kind of point-scoring match between different bands of people.


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## water (Apr 25, 2010)

With or without SA, females will generally have better luck finding a partner.


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## Stanpy (May 9, 2010)

I believe it would be difficult for both sexes to get a boyfriend or girlfriend. But in general, I do, as a female agree believe that it would generally be "easier" (I use that term lightly) for girls with SA to get boyfriends, than it would be for boys with SA to get girlfriends.

However, it's human nature to be attracted to more desireble human traits, such as confidence and sociality, so both sexes do have problems. But we live in a society where it's usually a boy chasing the girl, and not the other way round, so a girl with SA is more likely to be approached than a boy with SA. This is from what I've seen/heard anyway.

I'm a girl with SA who hasn't had a proper boyfriend since I was 11, and I stay in a lot, but I had the opportunity to have a boyfriend months ago - but his intentions weren't good, so I avoided him.


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## mcmuffinme (Mar 12, 2010)

It's easier having SA as a girl if you're attractive, but being an unattractive girl is like being the scum of society. It doesn't help that my sister is gorgeous, and I see how men treat women that they are interested in such as her. 

I asked a busser to just get me a glass of water for a customer, and he asked me if I could do it, and when I couldn't (I didn't know where we kept the glasses since I'm a host, and don't deal with that part of the job) he got all agitated and filled it and gave it to me. If I were remotely attractive he would have back-flipped over to the busser station and gave it to me with a smile. I know guys do that. I've seen guys do that, and when you see this distinction it makes you feel like sh-t.

I think guys have it harder, because you're expected to make a move, and that's pretty awful, but some girls that aren't blessed with beauty are made to feel like crap all the time when we can't attract someone. 

I've been working a lot lately, so excuse me, I 'm grumpy :/


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

mcmuffinme said:


> I asked a busser to just get me a glass of water for a customer, and he asked me if I could do it, and when I couldn't (I didn't know where we kept the glasses since I'm a host, and don't deal with that part of the job) he got all agitated and filled it and gave it to me. If I were remotely attractive he would have back-flipped over to the busser station and gave it to me with a smile. I know guys do that. I've seen guys do that, and when you see this distinction it makes you feel like sh-t.


It might be more likely in general, but I don't see how you can know in particular cases such as this. There are many assumptions on which you're basing your conclusion. I have seen men do such things with women generally considered very attractive. One example: at university, I saw one attractive woman asking a guy for help carrying some equipment to another building and he refused without much of a reason. I saw one of my male classmates often completely ignore his attractive girlfriend and not buy her anything (e.g., no birthday gifts or cards). And he hadn't had such a girlfriend before and did not readily attract women.


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

Whitney said:


> It seems like there are a lot more girls on here with boyfriends than guys with girlfriends. I guess because guys are usually expected to make the first move. And girls can just sit around and wait for the guy to make the move. Any thoughts?


Simple answer is yes. I think in general its more unattractive for a man to have SA than it is for a woman. Most women want the guy to be the dominant one and dont want to be embarassed by a socially awkward boyfriend. I think men dont mind it as much.


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

mcmuffinme said:


> It's easier having SA as a girl if you're attractive, but being an unattractive girl is like being the scum of society. It doesn't help that my sister is gorgeous, and I see how men treat women that they are interested in such as her.
> 
> I asked a busser to just get me a glass of water for a customer, and he asked me if I could do it, and when I couldn't (I didn't know where we kept the glasses since I'm a host, and don't deal with that part of the job) he got all agitated and filled it and gave it to me. If I were remotely attractive he would have back-flipped over to the busser station and gave it to me with a smile. I know guys do that. I've seen guys do that, and when you see this distinction it makes you feel like sh-t.
> 
> ...


I think you're right that looks are a big factor and its not just simply a case of saying any guy with sa has it harder in this respect than any girl with sa; however i believe if you take a guy and a girl that are similar in the looks department for the guy it will be harder.


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## caflme (Jun 7, 2009)

andy0128 said:


> I think you're right that looks are a big factor and its not just simply a case of saying any guy with sa has it harder in this respect than any girl with sa; however i believe if you take a guy and a girl that are similar in the looks department for the guy it will be harder.


I agree - looks aside, guys have it worse when it comes to approaching women because they are still expected to make the first move... but the flip side is related too... if a guy won't approach a girl then the girl still doesn't get the boyfriend... so it's relative.

I mean sure an outgoing guy can ask an SA girl out but how long will he really tolerate her not wanting to go out, to do stuff, being awkward around his friends and family. You may get the boyfriend but you are unlikely to be able to make the relationship work. Same with an outgoing girl approaching a guy with SA... how long will she handle him not wanting to meet her parents, not taking her out, wanting to stay in and not socialize with anyone but her.

I think that if it works between SAs and non SAs it is rare... and beautiful... but usually two SAs need to be together for them to be able to have enough in common and be able to handle each other's lifestyle. Granted they need to encourage each other to do more... not feed one anothers SA to unhealthy levels but if they get together... I think it is ideal.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

drealm said:


> Amazing crap.


Marry me.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*hmm*

Ah, the over analysing search for likelihoods and probabilities that have very little relation to the real world and what occurs in life.

The guy is expected to make the first move? Expected by whom? Who is this all powerful force that expects the man to always make the first move? Society? Society cannot speak, it cannot expect. It is an idea. A lot of the time it is not that society expects this or that from an individual. It is that the individual imagines that "society" expects this or that from them. The "set rules" are phantoms of nonsense and people are people.

I've heard talk of "an outgoing guy" on this forum. If you took everything that exists away and left that guy on his own in a world of nothing, would he be outgoing then? Where would he "go out" to? People are fluid. They change depending on situation. External sources and internal resources battle it out constantly. Someone can shift being confident to not being confident and then back again. The labels and categories so beloved by some are simply ways of explaining things. They are not necessarily rooted in anything concrete.

Do women have it easier? I don't know. There's a lot of banging of the fists to make sure that people accept the idea behind a particular belief system that women have it easier but given that it is very unlikely that the proponents of this belief system have met every single woman on the face of the earth and observed how they interacted in dating situations, it is safe to say that a lot of deleting, distorting, assuming, adding meaning and generalisation has gone on.

Attractive and unattractive are relative terms. Society does not decide what is and what is not attractive. People who falsely claim to speak for society have done their best to introduce a universally acknowledged and accepted standard for "attractive" and "unattractive" but such a thing does not stand in existence at the moment. It is relative and up to the individuals to decide.

So many people on here assume that they "socially awkward". Then there's the belief system that other people can automatically pick up on this assumed "social awkwardness". So you imagine you are something and then assume that every other person you meet can pick up on this thing that may or may not be true about you.

If I met a girl and she had some issues with shyness (because let's calm down here for a minute. Shyness is a state you can move in and out of but it is nowhere near as looked down upon as some people on here seem to assume it is. Assuming that, if you don't go out all the time and socialise every five minutes, you'll be looked down upon by the whole world is taking high school thinking and attempting to apply it to the real world) I really wouldn't mind. Whatever she's comfortable with. Sure, it'd be cool to have things in common and some differences too but we've all got the things we want to work on so it wouldn't really bother me.

Someone with SA can ask out anyone. They might not find it easy and they might not want to do it but they can do it. It is possible. A girl with SA can ask someone out and be asked out by people. A man with SA can ask someone out and can be asked out by someone. All those things are perfectly possible. Maybe not easy but possible.

Someone with SA can date someone without SA. You can date anyone. Attempting to restrict your dating opportunities by making a mental disorder you don't necessarily want a priority when it comes to finding a partner is close to daftness. It's looking for something in another person that you may wish wasn't true about you. I broke my arm a couple of months back but I didn't then say to myself: "I must now only look for potential partners who have also broken their arms".

You are beyond your SA. You are an individual. SA has a presence and there's anxiety, behaviours, belief systems etc, etc.....but that's not You. You get to decide who you are.

And, in relationships, it is important to remember: whatever limitations you think you have may well not be noticed by the person you like.


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## AliBaba (Nov 16, 2005)

mooncake said:


> But I think it would be a shame not to be able to talk about the topic maturely, just because of the few bitter, childish points that inevitably pop up all the time.


No doubt a ton of people obviously want to discuss this subject, so yes it is a shame when similar threads get locked almost every time because of the actions of a few.

I would think the key to keeping one of these threads open would be to not respond to the "bitter, childish" points(or presentations of these points that is). If you see a post that really pisses you off.....take a deep breath and don't respond. Do we have an ignore function on this board?



caflme said:


> *I mean sure an outgoing guy can ask an SA girl out but how long will he really tolerate her not wanting to go out, to do stuff, being awkward around his friends and family. You may get the boyfriend but you are unlikely to be able to make the relationship work. *


Great point and there have been quite a few threads here about how difficult this kind of situation can be for women with SA.


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## Johnny_Genome (Nov 11, 2003)

I think it is nearly impossible here to talk in gender generalities, because those who fall outside of a statement end up feeling bad...

I will say, SAD can cause a relationship experience gap that gets harder to overcome the older you get -- early relationships, whether short-lived or not-great, can make a huge difference in one's future potential relationships.


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## AliBaba (Nov 16, 2005)

UltraShy said:


> A shy girl can be called demure and it's even sort of cute that she's shy much of society may think. Can you think of any term for shy men that's not insulting?


- *The "Strong, Silent" Type* (Although it helps to at least be tall if you expect this one.)

- *Mysterious*

- *Emo* (Someone from a younger generation would have to chime in on this one).

I myself have been called the following as the result of misunderstandings caused by social anxiety: cold/cold fish/cold hearted/cold *******/jack ***/*******/jerk/jerkoff/meanie/mean/& of course "uncaring son of a *****". Now certainly those are not viewed as positive labels by society in general, but in theory being called these things certainly could be exploited in order to get laid or engage in generally unhealthy relationships. Not that someone like myself would ever consciously do such a thing:lol


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## JFmtl (Dec 23, 2008)

I never understood why it always caused huge drama to state the obvious: in the dating world, SA guys are more crippled than SA girls because of the traditional gender role that require the guy to make the moves, to be assertive and confident. It doesn't take a lot of time to realize then they are A LOT of guys that can be qualified as being in a "involuntary celibacy" situation, and here everytime a poll is made about the subject, that tendency is confirmed.

What is next? will saying that guys tends to be taller than women be considered as sexist?


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

drealm said:


> I'd like to commemorate Whitney with a medal of honor for seeking objectivity over political correctness in her fact finding mission.


Why thank you!



drealm said:


> In spite of Whitney having multiple boyfriends all of which she herself implies she got through no effort of her own, but purely by fluke of someone approaching her, I'm not angry. Normally her admission of dating experience alone would launch my keyboard across the room and leave me going into a fit of rage, which can only be quenched by carving another notch in my arm. Thankfully tonight I don't need to do that, because she broke the spell. I could care less whether Whitney has had a hundred boyfriends or one, all my anger and frustration is relieved singularly by her admittance that she's got it easier.


I've had three boyfriends. And mainly what I mean by fluke is that I somehow have managed to find the most patient guys on the face of the earth. Like, the first one (I was 16), we were dating for about 2 months before we ever kissed. Yeah, thats not a typical guy. So I've been extremely lucky. But for the most part, all my boyfriends have been guys that I was able to get somewhat close to before we started dating. Which is rare for me, because I am usually very intimidated by guys, so I'm usually never friends with them. But I think one of the most important parts to note is that after you have had one relationship, the others are millions of times easier (SA-wise) because you have had that experience. And I think that goes for girls and guys.


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

JFmtl said:


> I never understood why it always caused huge drama to state the obvious: in the dating world, SA guys are more crippled than SA girls because of the traditional gender role that require the guy to make the moves, to be assertive and confident. It doesn't take a lot of time to realize then they are A LOT of guys that can be qualified as being in a "involuntary celibacy" situation, and here everytime a poll is made about the subject, that tendency is confirmed.
> 
> What is next? will saying that guys tends to be taller than women be considered as sexist?


I think some of it has to do with the younger age of the forum. A lot females on here have probably recently taken a feminist or diversity course of some sort, or they're in an environment that preaches they're oppressed or held to very unfair standards. Thus, to many of them it's offensive to recognize gender differences without going on about how they're just a social construct or relative. And it's offensive to many to provide a large focus on whether men can have it harder.

It's like the enthusiastic new convert who pushes their religion on their friends and whatnot. In this case, it's the enthusiastic new or renewed feminist ready to cry sexist at every little thing.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

Okay, say this assertion is true, what difference does it make? Does it mean we, as women, don't have as much of a right to be here, that our SA isn't as bad as the guys? This is a slippery slope and, with all due respect to the OP, I fail to see the point of this thread.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

JFmtl said:


> I never understood why it always caused huge drama to state the obvious: in the dating world, SA guys are more crippled than SA girls because of the traditional gender role that require the guy to make the moves, to be assertive and confident. It doesn't take a lot of time to realize then they are A LOT of guys that can be qualified as being in a "involuntary celibacy" situation, and here everytime a poll is made about the subject, that tendency is confirmed.
> 
> What is next? will saying that guys tends to be taller than women be considered as sexist?


This is true, but it seems to be one area. For the lady to be ready to handle her side of the relationship is the other. You can't have one without the other.


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## drealm (Jul 7, 2009)

Neptunus said:


> Okay, say this assertion is true, what difference does it make?


Acknowledgment alone profoundly alleviates the frustration, bitterness and hostility for males suffering this existential crises. Which in turn leads to males letting go of their hate for women.

I know first hand the monster that grows inside me. My dating plight has lead me into a downward spiral of misogyny, hatred and deep seated bitterness. All my efforts to control my anger failed, yet this one simple acknowledgment from Whitney disarmed me.



Neptunus said:


> Does it mean we, as women, don't have as much of a right to be here,


I don't think women admitting males have it harder in the dating scene leads to a domino effect of men wanting to kick women out. Acknowledgments alone are what's desired, nothing else.

I think a community can only grow through non-exclusivity and non-censorship. Non-exclusivity requires everyone to have a right to be here. A person's contribution to the greater discussion should be the only factor determining a right to be here or not.



Neptunus said:


> that our SA isn't as bad as the guys?


Differences exist in nature. I have no problem telling someone I'm wealthier, more intelligent or more handsome than they are. Admitting differences that don't benefit you is part of respecting facts. And denying those same differences for one's own benefit doesn't change those facts.



Neptunus said:


> This is a slippery slope and, with all due respect to the OP, I fail to see the point of this thread.


The OP made a brave post. Her post is brave because it's completely devoid of self-interest and she's willing to admit facts even if they convict herself. She's a great example of how the rest of us should act. A post should stand on it's own even if it doesn't suit the benefit of the poster.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

drealm said:


> Acknowledgment alone profoundly alleviates the frustration, bitterness and hostility for males suffering this existential crises. Which in turn leads to males letting go of their *hate for women*.


Even if it's true, why does it frustrate you? Why hate us for something that is beyond our control? Seems to me the blame lies with men and society.



> The OP made a brave post. Her post is brave because it's completely devoid of self-interest and she's willing to admit facts even if they convict herself. She's a great example of how the rest of us should act. A post should stand on it's own even if it doesn't suit benefit of the poster.


I wasn't putting down the OP, merely stating my opinion. And, personally, I think it's possible that she's _partly_ right -- it _might_ be easier for really attractive women; at least to get laid. As for long-term relationships, I think social skills come into play more even if you're "hot," the exception being men looking for trophy wives and submissive women.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

drealm said:


> Acknowledgment alone profoundly alleviates the frustration, bitterness and hostility for males suffering this existential crises. Which in turn leads to males letting go of their hate for women.


I understand that, and I agree with this. It makes sense this would be frustrating. Personally, I've never denied men are expected more often than women to make the first move and this sucks. I think on the same level though, women are looking for acknowledgement that their dating life isn't always easy _despite_ this. I sometimes feel like the second I acknowledge I have it easier in this area, any realtionship issue I might have will lose credibility with all you Y chromosome carriers.

Getting asked out is only one part of having a relationship, and while we might not have it as tough as guys in that department, we still struggle just as much elsewhere. Also, not all women are guy magnets, and when a girl tries to explain they are an exception to this getting-asked-out-is-easy rule, guys tend to scoff at the idea.

So in short, I think the acknowledgement issue here goes both ways, and I think that might be why a lot of women are not comfortable with the idea of admitting when they _generally _have an easier time. It seems to get thrown in our faces in other situations, and the acknoweldgement of our own difficulties isn't always present in return.

I hope I don't get attacked for this. I'm not that used to posting my thoughts in such a controversial topic.


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

Neptunus said:


> Okay, say this assertion is true, what difference does it make? Does it mean we, as women, don't have as much of a right to be here, that our SA isn't as bad as the guys? This is a slippery slope and, with all due respect to the OP, I fail to see the point of this thread.


Of course we have just as much of a right to be here. There are plenty of girls on here who do have trouble with dating, and even if you do get asked out it doesn't mean you won't have trouble with what comes next. And for the most part, I'm sure that every person on here has some issues that aren't as bad for them as others. I think that is kinda the point of this forum in general: we all have a lot of the same problems, but we all differ in some ways, so that way we are able to help each other. The person who has had more positive relationship experience can give advice to the person who has had lots of relationship trouble. Then that person with the relationship trouble might be able to give advice to someone about some other issue, like dealing with family or something. Or eye contact. Or talking on the phone in a public place. Or whatever issue that they have dealt with and made progress on and can give advice about. I don't see it as a slippery slope, I see admitting things like this as the first step in helping each other.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

I have enough trouble living let alone dating. :roll


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

Whitney said:


> Of course we have just as much of a right to be here.


It was a rhetorical question.



Whitney said:


> I don't see it as a slippery slope, I see admitting things like this as the first step in helping each other.


How does admitting "women have it easier" help men? Dating advice can be given by either sex regardless.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Perfectionist said:


> I understand that, and I agree with this. It makes sense this would be frustrating. Personally, I've never denied men are expected more often than women to make the first move and this sucks. I think on the same level though, women are looking for acknowledgement that their dating life isn't always easy _despite_ this. I sometimes feel like the second I acknowledge I have it easier in this area, any realtionship issue I might have will lose credibility with all you Y chromosome carriers.
> 
> Getting asked out is only one part of having a relationship, and while we might not have it as tough as guys in that department, we still struggle just as much elsewhere. Also, not all women are guy magnets, and when a girl tries to explain they are an exception to this getting-asked-out-is-easy rule, guys tend to scoff at the idea.
> 
> ...


Using your post to emphasize a point...

Really, like I said earlier, there are pros and cons for both sexes. Why can't we, both men and women, just be OK with the spot we are given? It isn't like us men don't have an opportunity to make relationships happen. Personally, I'd rather feel like I can do certain things by way of self-accomplishment than being handed something (not saying women are). Also, there are definitely women who approach on a consistent basis, so no need to generalize.


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

drealm said:


> The OP made a brave post. Her post is brave because it's completely devoid of self-interest and she's willing to admit facts even if they convict herself. She's a great example of how the rest of us should act. A post should stand on it's own even if it doesn't suit the benefit of the poster.


So I was getting pretty nervous after I made this thread and people started talking about it getting locked and people getting offended. But even if that happens, your posts have made it worth it :kiss


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

Drealm, your points are somewhat persuasive. But why "hate" women because you're frustrated in your dating life. OK, I understand why, but isn't that like hating basketball because you got cut from your HS team, or hating MDs because you couldn't get into medical school? You have choices in how you respond to your frustration. If not hating women is your goal, then isn't it your responsibility to adjust your attitude, and don't you want control over that process?


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## drealm (Jul 7, 2009)

Neptunus said:


> Even if it's true, why does it frustrate you?
> 
> Why hate us for something that is beyond our control?


I don't know, but it does. I've tried everything to stop my anger and nothing works. If I could pop a pill today to chemically remove all traces of anger I would.

I don't hate women for having dating easier. Just like I don't hate rich people for being rich, beautiful people for being beautiful, intelligent people for being intelligent, educated people for being educated. What I hate is denial of facts. I can live with facts, I cannot live with denial.



Perfectionist said:


> I understand that, and I agree with this. It makes sense this would be frustrating. Personally, I've never denied men are expected more often than women to make the first move and this sucks. I think on the same level though, women are looking for acknowledgement that their dating life isn't always easy _despite_ this. *I sometimes feel like the second I acknowledge I have it easier in this area, any realtionship issue I might have will lose credibility with all you Y chromosome carriers.*
> 
> Getting asked out is only one part of having a relationship, and while we might not have it as tough as guys in that department, we still struggle just as much elsewhere. Also, not all women are guy magnets, and when a girl tries to explain they are an exception to this getting-asked-out-is-easy rule, guys tend to scoff at the idea.
> 
> ...


This whole post is wonderful. The bold sections especially rings true. Unfortunately I don't have a good answer to solving acknowledgment issues on SAS. I've seen other forums that are more supportive than SAS, which handle acknowledgment better but they do so by removing censorship. Human emotion cannot be mandated, only unfettered discussion will earn true sympathy and respect. I'd reckon if all moderation was removed from SAS for a week, hate would die down after a few tsunamis and we'd begin rebuilding the world with a real grasp of each others problems.


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## drealm (Jul 7, 2009)

Atticus said:


> Drealm, your points are somewhat persuasive. But why "hate" women because you're frustrated in your dating life. OK, I understand why, but isn't that like hating basketball because you got cut from your HS team, or hating MDs because you couldn't get into medical school? You have choices in how you respond to your frustration. If not hating women is your goal, then isn't it your responsibility to adjust your attitude, and don't you want control over that process?


My only choice is to censor my hate. Censoring my hate doesn't truly solve my issue, as my hate is still there. The only difference with censorship is I implode instead of explode.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

drealm said:


> I don't know, but it does. I've tried everything to stop my anger and nothing works. If I could pop a pill today to chemically remove all traces of anger I would.
> 
> I don't hate women for having dating easier. Just like I don't hate rich people for being rich, beautiful people for being beautiful, intelligent people for being intelligent, educated people for being educated. What I hate is denial of facts. I can live with facts, I cannot live with denial.


Well, I appreciate your frankness. Keep in mind, though, that some of us who disagree aren't in denial, we're simply stating what we believe to be true from our experience. Although, I admit, there are some who are a little touchy, and jump down guys throats whenever the topic of gender equality is brought up; I can definitely understand your frustration with them.


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## STKinTHEmud (Jun 21, 2009)

UltraShy said:


> A shy girl can be called demure and it's even sort of cute that she's shy much of society may think. Can you think of any term for shy men that's not insulting? Wuss is the least impolite one I can think of. Wuss is a variant on another term used for shy men, a term that sometimes preceeds the word "cat" and which would be censored by SAS.


I find it strange that a man is often associated with being female if he is unable to ask a women out due to anxiety. It's as if people think male shyness is easier to accept when they can associate it with femininity.



mcmuffinme said:


> I think guys have it harder, because you're expected to make a move, and that's pretty awful, but some girls that aren't blessed with beauty are made to feel like crap all the time when we can't attract someone.


This is just the result of my negative thinking, and I know it's wrong, but in my weaker moments, I envy women for their ability to attract men, to get men to want to know them better based on their looks, rather than having to exhibit attractive personality traits (which, I think, many people with SA lack). I work _very_ hard on my body, fighting against my skinny-guy genes by working out 6 days a week and eating an incredibly bland diet, and I find it easier to improve my looks than it is to improve my personality. I don't look so bad, so I kind of wish women would judge me by that rather than by my personality. But, again, I know this is wrong, since I can't possibly know whether any of that is true since I've never been a woman. It's just the result of negative thinking, and I'm working on changing that thinking.

No one with SA has things easy, but I do really wish I had the support of an SO like some of you (men and women) to perhaps make things a bit more bearable.


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## Rasputin_1 (Oct 27, 2008)

This has been pretty civil...... im disappointed


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## nemesis1 (Dec 21, 2009)

Yes it is easier for girls with SA to date than guys.


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## BetaBoy90 (Jan 5, 2010)

Rasputin_1 said:


> This has been pretty civil...... im disappointed


NOOOOOO, We have It harder, because we have to do the courting ARGHHH!!!!.....

My bad were on the same team. Go Blue Team Go!!!!!


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## Magaly (Mar 8, 2010)

mooncake said:


> However, being a girl with severe SA doesn't make the pain of feeling so restricted and possibly worthless any less. If you're too scared to even leave the house for many years, then a relationship is going to be equally hard to find no matter what sex you are.* That's why as a female it's sometimes hard to hear insensitively worded rants about how girls have it easier. *If you're a female who never gets approached by guys, has never been in a relationship etc., or can't manage to even leave the house much, then *it can be frustrating to be told that you have a much better chance at finding yourself a partner, because it feels like anything but that at the time.*
> 
> I also think it's worth saying though, that females possibly have their own, unique set of worries if they're approached by someone. Does he genuinely like me? Is he just trying to use me? etc. Males obviously may face the same questions, but as a female I think I feel very vulnerable to being messed around. *Also, about the 'shy' thing often said about socially anxious women and how it can be seen as an attractive trait... well, **sure it could be viewed as some kind of endearing quirk, but when my SA was at its worst, I can assure you I wasn't really viewed as 'shy', just more of 'freak' and the butt of jokes.* It's not everyone who can pull off the mysterious or shy card as something alluring,


Thanks for saying this. There is a difference between "shyness" and phobia.


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## dasdasfdasfasdfsa (Sep 23, 2009)

I just took a bite outta some old pizza and it tasted funny. Suggestions?


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## AliBaba (Nov 16, 2005)

flyingspatula said:


> I just took a bite outta some old pizza and it tasted funny. Suggestions?


Did you swallow it? If not, spit it out into a napkin or wastebasket.


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## AliBaba (Nov 16, 2005)

Just to stay on topic I'd also like to emphasize this comment:



mooncake said:


> *Also, about the 'shy' thing often said about socially anxious women and how it can be seen as an attractive trait... well, sure it could be viewed as some kind of endearing quirk, but when my SA was at its worst, I can assure you I wasn't really viewed as 'shy', just more of 'freak' and the butt of jokes. It's not everyone who can pull off the mysterious or shy card as something alluring*


I personally don't see how SAwomen have any easier a time. They may or may not be approached more. But after some guy approaches an SA "Chick" and says: "Hi", I think we're pretty much in the same boat. By "we", I mean the entire human race in general. I think everybody has to endure some type of torture in order to "get with" their dream guy/gal.


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## solasum (Nov 17, 2008)

Yes, I do think it's easier for girls with SA to get boyfriends.


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

Just by looking at the title, I'm gonna say....


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## mbp86 (May 11, 2010)

Whitney said:


> It seems like there are a lot more girls on here with boyfriends than guys with girlfriends. I guess because guys are usually expected to make the first move. And girls can just sit around and wait for the guy to make the move. Any thoughts?


You are correct!


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## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

The conclusion that I draw from this debate is that strict gender roles suck for everyone. Maybe it _is_ easier for women to get boyfriends, but I don't think women are really at fault for that; we certainly didn't make up the rule that men have to be macho, assertive and commanding at all times. I know there are women out there who require their men to fulfill a bunch of manly stereotypes, but do you really want a girlfriend who thinks that way? Seems kind of limiting to me.

For the record, I am a man-pursuer. I used to wait around for guys to ask me out, and I found it to be completely ineffective. The kind of guy I'm interested in tends not to be the kind of guy who asks out girls.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

by saying it's easier for girls with SA to get in relationships is making the assumption that the hardest part of a relationship is approaching or asking the person out which i don't think is true at all for SAers but i suppose it's different for everyone.
i just notice that the "guys have to make the first move" thing somehow ends up turning into "girls with SA have it easy", which is kind of just like a slippery slope (of logic) to me.


the idea that a girl can just sit there without doing anything and then get a boyfriend with no effort is also not true in the vast majority of situations, people neglect to mention that you have to be highly attractive to have men constantly ask you out without making having to make hints of any kind through speaking or body language. 


i've actually read that most often it is the woman who make the first move through body language/eye contact then the man takes the cue and makes the first verbal move. 
but anyway of course being asked out will more likely lead to a relationship so it makes sense for there to be more females in relationships but in no way are they easy for either gender and there's so much more to deal with in relationships than asking someone out, but i think people just tend to focus most on that when wanting to date someone.

i've heard the analogy that dating is like a dance between both partners and i agree completely... it wouldn't work unless both reciprocate equally, watch the others' cues, take the appropriate steps, etc. one can't just be dragged along in a relationship without making any effort and doing anything in return.


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

nothing to fear said:


> by saying it's easier for girls with SA to get in relationships is making the assumption that the hardest part of a relationship is approaching or asking the person out which i don't think is true at all for SAers but i suppose it's different for everyone... but anyway of course being asked out will more likely lead to a relationship so it makes sense for there to be more females in relationships but in no way are they easy for either gender and there's so much more to deal with in relationships than asking someone out, but i think people just tend to focus most on that when wanting to date someone.


Well the question was really is it easier for girls to get boyfriends, not is it easier to keep them. I was really focusing on the initial contact when I made the post, not really the relationship as a whole.



nothing to fear said:


> i've actually read that most often it is the woman who make the first move through body language/eye contact then the man takes the cue and makes the first verbal move.


This is probably true, because even guys without SA get nervous asking girls out, so they look for signs that they won't get rejected before they even try. Girls with SA are less likely to make these signals and guys with SA are less likely to pick up on them, or less likely to act on them. I wasn't trying to say that either gender had it "easy." It is all relative.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I say it is probably closer to 50/50 that men approach women based on signals; maybe more so that men approach without signals. I hate waiting for a "sign" because often women will not.


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## theCARS1979 (Apr 26, 2010)

Sometimes i do get depressed over it and it aggrivates and annoys me at times.
Steve


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## sonicrainboom (Apr 11, 2010)

I guess its a little easier because girls don't have to approach guys, but they still have to get them to like them enough to want to be their bf. For me, its very hard to get a bf and I never get approached. I think its a lie that guys like shy girls. No one likes shy people.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

stopitidontlikeit said:


> I guess its a little easier because girls don't have to approach guys, but they still have to get them to like them enough to want to be their bf. For me, its very hard to get a bf and I never get approached. I think its a lie that guys like shy girls. No one likes shy people.


Most guys I know, including me, are pretty interested enough if we approach.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

Whitney said:


> Well the question was really is it easier for girls to get boyfriends, not is it easier to keep them. I was really focusing on the initial contact when I made the post, not really the relationship as a whole.


oh, i know that was the original question, i just added on commentary on relationships in general.


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## XxArmyofOnexX (Aug 13, 2007)

:b


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

XxArmyofOnexX said:


> :b


Sorry guys  guess I haven't really been active long enough to see it...


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## XxArmyofOnexX (Aug 13, 2007)

I just read through the thread, this is surprisingly civil 

Good job everyone, maybe this thread will make it 



PinkFloyd75 said:


> Sometimes i do get depressed over it and it aggrivates and annoys me at times.


This


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## bowlingpins (Oct 18, 2008)

Is something being easier even a good thing? There is good evidence that the best way to keep a mind healthy and growing is to keep it challenged. I would rather work through a difficult situation than sail through something easy which would be boring.

It can be frustrating though if the situation is thought to be impossibly difficult.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

As has been stated, this is not a competition - we have equal and opposite areas of SA.

****Thread Lock Warning****


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