# Switching from Klonopin to Diazepam Confusion?



## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

I have read in so many places that Diazepam is the best benzo to taper off of which I hope to do eventually. I've been on clonazepam (Klonopin) for 3 years now and had to keep upping my dose. I now take 0.75 mg 3 times a day which is 2.25 mg a day. I also take 15 mg lexapro every morning and 600 mg gabbapentin (neurontin) twice a day.

This all has been helping (along with psychotherapy) but I'm afraid of being dependent on meds forever especially the clonazepam which is pure hell to stop cold turkey which I know from experience.

So my confusion is that my doctor told me that the equivalance is either 3:1 or 4:1. He didn't even know and couldn't find it in his books. There isn't even a ****ing computer in his office and I doubt he even knows how to use one:stu

From my online reasearch people say its 10:1 or even 20:1 and I told him this and he was like, well that sound kinda high with a smirk.

So is my doctor right or almost every website? I tryed taking 2 mg. 4 times a day which was the max on the prescription and my anxiety got so high again I just went back on the clonazepam. The only time diazepam seems to do anything is at night to help me sleep.

Also online the source for these conversion charts seems always to be this ashton manual. But does anyone even know what that is or who this "ashton" is.

Anyway I hope I made sense and someone can clear this up on weather I should trust my doctor or the ashton manual thingy, both of which seem flaky.

My only revalation is that the Teva 0.5 clonazepam are the same size ans shape as the Teva 2 mg diazepam which suggests possibly that theres some truth to the 4:1 conversion.

This is my first post ever on this forum but I've read a lot of insightful threads on it. I hope someone can tell me from experience how much diazepam is equal to clonazepam.

Thank you and I'm glad there is a forum like this for people who have to deal with so much internal struggles every day.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

I go by Queen's University's benzo equivalency chart which states that 0.5mg of Klonopin = 10mg of Valium


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## King Moonracer (Oct 12, 2010)

ya i here klonopin is the strongest stuff. ive been tapering off of it for a few weeks now, and i see no withdrawal symptoms.....there has to be something wrong with my body....i think im an alien half breed or something


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

Dr House said:


> I go by Queen's University's benzo equivalency chart which states that 0.5mg of Klonopin = 10mg of Valium


Thanks for a new source on the matter I'll have to look into it.

I wonder why my Dr. isn't aware of this. I want to give the diazepam a try and keep my Dr. because he's very understanding and nonjudgmental but for some reason he thinks the equivalence is either 4:1 or 3:1 and that 20:1 is just silly.:con


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## Bacon (Jul 4, 2010)

Klonopin and Xanax are the most potent.


10 MG Valium = .5 MG Xanax
10 MG Valium = .5 Klonopin


Xanax and klonopin are about the same, Klonopin lasts longer. Xanax lasting less and having more of a buzz/lift to it. I Like em both


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

Its almost like my Dr. is pulling these numbers out of his arse. I mean 3:1 or 4:1 compared to what everyone else is saying? The only thing that supports his claim is how the teva 0.5 clonazepam tablets are the same size as the 2 mg diazepam.

Thankfully I still have 2 refills on the clonazepam but what is the taboo with the diazepam, I don't get it. Its not as strong and supposedly is easier to come off of which is my ultimate goal.

I just need to figure out what to tell him and not seem like I'm looking to get buzzed off them or something. All I want is to see if it relieves my anxiety as well or better than the clonazepam but I won't know at the dose he put me on.


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

Dr House said:


> I go by Queen's University's benzo equivalency chart which states that 0.5mg of Klonopin = 10mg of Valium


Thanks for a new source on the matter I'll have to look into it.

I wonder why my Dr. isn't aware of this. I want to give the diazepam a try and keep my Dr. because he's very understanding and nonjudgmental but for some reason he thinks the equivalence is either 4:1 or 3:1 and that 20:1 is just silly.:con


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

Dr House said:


> I go by Queen's University's benzo equivalency chart which states that 0.5mg of Klonopin = 10mg of Valium


Do you happen to have a link to that chart by any chance? I'm thinking the best idea is if I showed my dr. some credible source that I could print out and bring in.

He is very weary of the internet though because of all the misinformation out there which is true. He said things like webmd you could trust but no mainstream websites seem to have such charts:stu


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## d829 (Jul 29, 2010)

you really don't have to switch if you use liquid titration to taper- 


2.25 K = 45mg V

that's a hefty dose - 

your doctor indeed has his head up his ****ing *** and should not be prescribing these meds to people if he doesn't know how to get you off them.

just look up benzo conversion charts online print them out and shove them in his face or better yet get the Ashton Manual and smack him over the head with it.

****ing doctors...


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

BeHereNow said:


> Its almost like my Dr. is pulling these numbers out of his arse. I mean 3:1 or 4:1 compared to what everyone else is saying? The only thing that supports his claim is how the teva 0.5 clonazepam tablets are the same size as the 2 mg diazepam.
> 
> Thankfully I still have 2 refills on the clonazepam but what is the taboo with the diazepam, I don't get it. Its not as strong and supposedly is easier to come off of which is my ultimate goal.
> 
> I just need to figure out what to tell him and not seem like I'm looking to get buzzed off them or something. All I want is to see if it relieves my anxiety as well or better than the clonazepam but I won't know at the dose he put me on.


hes either lying to you or hes just plain stupid. When I was first starting medications, I was lied to by some psychiatrist that my 1mg of Klonopin = 2mg of Valium. Needless to say he isnt my psychiatrist. I'd like to punch him in the face if I ever see him again.


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

d829 said:


> you really don't have to switch if you use liquid titration to taper-
> 
> 2.25 K = 45mg V
> 
> ...


Yeah in my lifetime I think doctors have made me more crazy than they've helped in the scheme of things.

Just to clarify when you say:

2.25 K = 45mg V

that's a hefty dose -

Do you mean the K is a hefty dose or the V. Because if 2.25 K is considered normal then why is 45 mg. V considered sort of taboo. Is it more addictive somehow?

Also I wasn't aware that K was available in liquid. What do you guys think of just tapering off of K without switching to V first. If thats the easier option it might be better.

And I will definately come in with some printouts from the internet I just need to be sure they're from sources my doctor wouldn't consider "misinformation".


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

Dr House said:


> hes either lying to you or hes just plain stupid. When I was first starting medications, I was lied to by some psychiatrist that my 1mg of Klonopin = 2mg of Valium. Needless to say he isnt my psychiatrist. I'd like to punch him in the face if I ever see him again.


I think he's just stupid. He told me he'd try me out on the V on my next visit then when he goes to prescribe it he pulls out some dusty old book off his shelf and says something like "well I can't seem to find what I'm looking for but based off the dose for seizures it looks like its 1:3 or 1:4 equivalence."

Well thats great and all but I don't have ****ing seizures I have social anxiety/aspergers:bash

The only reason I want to stay with him as my psychiatrist is that he's the best one I've encountered so far which isn't saying much.

I actually took 15 mg twice today so far in place of my first 2 0.75 mg of K and I had equal anxiety relief as I would with K but I felt a little more tired. Maybe I only need 10 mg 3 times a day but definitely more than 2mg which did nothing.

I'm think I'm gonna stay on the 45 mg of V per day until my prescription runs out in a few days then go back to the K just to compare. I know I should take it as prescribed but my doctor isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and I'm only trying to find the best therapeutic dosage.

Does anyone know why 45 mg Valium is considered a high dose while the equivalent of Klonopin is considered normal? This makes absolutely no sense to me:stu


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

BeHereNow said:


> I think he's just stupid. He told me he'd try me out on the V on my next visit then when he goes to prescribe it he pulls out some dusty old book off his shelf and says something like "well I can't seem to find what I'm looking for but based off the dose for seizures it looks like its 1:3 or 1:4 equivalence."
> 
> Well thats great and all but I don't have ****ing seizures I have social anxiety/aspergers:bash
> 
> ...


Because the number looks bigger. 45>2 in mathematics which is obviously the only thing this doctor is educated in.


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## d829 (Jul 29, 2010)

yes they have liquid K but you can also make your own with water or milk - I am doing a ativan water taper and it's going smooth by taking 1ml or 1% off each day I am allowing my GABA Receptors to heal on the way down. 

If you get on Valium you can cut the pills then when you get to a low dose you can water the rest.


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

For now I'm back on the klonopin because that's whats worked for me a couple years now and the last thing I want right now is to start becoming more introverted and fearful of the world around me again.

Maybe once I stock up on my 2 refills of Valium I'll experiment with the proper dosage again but I'm not going that route unless/until my doctor is on board with me.

I was thinking though, what if I just tapered off the klonopin by quartering the pills?

I currently take one and a half 0.5 mg pills three times a day. So lets say I started taking one and a quarter of the pills for one of my doses, wait a week or so, then reduce my 2nd dose by a quarter of a pill until I'm taking one and a quarter pills 3 times a day.

Then I could reduce one of the 3 doses to just one pill and just keep reducing by quarter tablets one dose at a time and go slow.

Does anyone have an idea of how that might work?


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## d829 (Jul 29, 2010)

get the lowest dose K you can get if you are going to cut the pills.

I would not be cutting the higher dose pills.

Cutting pills is brutal enough so get the lowest dose 
which I don't know off the top of my heard are.


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

Ok so I just saw my Dr. and said I wanted to try the diazepam taper method again to get off clonazepam because I have read a lot of good things about that online and I eventually want to get off benzos.

For some reason he says that Diazepam tends to be more addictive than Clonazepam which seems contradictory to things I've read

Anyway he took me off clonazepam and put me on 5mg diazepam 3x daily (15mg) and increased my gabbapentin (neurontin) from 600mg twice a day to 900mg twice a day which he said acts on the same receptors in the brain which I already knew.

I was on 2.5 mg clonazepam a day before so I just hope the transition goes smoothly. I'm seeing him again in 2 weeks?

My main question is does anyone else think that diazepam can be more addictive than clonazepam?


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## decadeAndAHalfOfSA (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't see why diazepam is more addictive than clonazepam. It is preferred for tapering, because it has a longer half life. That means it stays in your body longer and so it minimizes withdrawal symptoms.

The best way to taper is to use a water titration method, instead of cutting pills with a knife. Do it very slowly too.

2.5 mg of Klonopin = 50 mg Valium. That's kind of a lot. You may want to stay on 1 mg of K and convert the rest to 30 mg of Valium to start. Then when you have tapered off the the 30 mg of Valium, convert the remaining K to 20 mg of Valium and taper off of that.

You should do a slow taper, at least 8 months at the dosage your are on. Longer if you can. If you go too fast, you are likely to have severe withdrawal symptoms and give up. Also, you have to give your brain time to heal back or you may have long term protracted withdrawal -- a lot of people continue to have withdrawal symptoms months to years after completely discontinuing benzos. Going slow and letting your brain heal back will help minimize this.

Water titration method:
http://www.benzowithdrawal.com/forum/index.php?topic=11.0

Oh yeah, most doctors are pretty ignorant about the right way to taper. They know how to prescribe them like candy though... Don't trust them. Educate yourself by doing research online.

When I went to my doctor and said I wanted to taper, she had no clue about water titration and screwed up on the math and prescribed way too much Valium. Luckily I found out when I got home.


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## decadeAndAHalfOfSA (Jul 11, 2011)

BeHereNow said:


> Ok so I just saw my Dr. and said I wanted to try the diazepam taper method again to get off clonazepam because I have read a lot of good things about that online and I eventually want to get off benzos.
> 
> For some reason he says that Diazepam tends to be more addictive than Clonazepam which seems contradictory to things I've read
> 
> ...


Wait a minute, your doctor took you off 2.5 mg clonazepam/day and only put you on 15 mg of diazepam/day!? Gabapentin didn't help me at all when I tried it and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work the same way benzos work exactly. I'm not sure that's the best way to go and never have heard people on the benzo withdrawal forums recommend that route.


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

decadeAndAHalfOfSA said:


> Wait a minute, your doctor took you off 2.5 mg clonazepam/day and only put you on 15 mg of diazepam/day!? Gabapentin didn't help me at all when I tried it and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work the same way benzos work exactly. I'm not sure that's the best way to go and never have heard people on the benzo withdrawal forums recommend that route.


Thank you for the info and advice. For some reason my Dr. has something against diazepam. He thinks its more addictive than clonazepam and he doesn't believe that 2.5 mg clonazepam = 50 mg diazepam and he said he would be very reluctant to prescribe that much.

What I'm trying so hard to understand is why that dosage of diazepam is considered a large amount while the equivalent of clonazepam is considered normal?!?

Can anyone shed some light on this because I'm really confused about this and I do feel some symptoms returning which has me a bit worried:stu


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## decadeAndAHalfOfSA (Jul 11, 2011)

BeHereNow said:


> Thank you for the info and advice. For some reason my Dr. has something against diazepam. He thinks its more addictive than clonazepam and he doesn't believe that 2.5 mg clonazepam = 50 mg diazepam and he said he would be very reluctant to prescribe that much.
> 
> What I'm trying so hard to understand is why that dosage of diazepam is considered a large amount while the equivalent of clonazepam is considered normal?!?
> 
> Can anyone shed some light on this because I'm really confused about this and I do feel some symptoms returning which has me a bit worried:stu


I dunno why 50 mg of diazepam is too much, but it is. I was on 3 mg of Xanax XR and 2 mg of Klonopin. I had to taper directly off both Xanax first (I got to like 1 mg Xanax before I could safely crossover to diazepam) and then lower the Klonopin, before I could get a low and safe enough equivalent of diazepam to crossover to.

So, I think your doctor's right in not transferring you over to 50 mg of Valium.

What I think you should do is to stay on 1 mg of Klonopin and convert 1.5 of the remaining Klonopin to 30 mg of Valium (that's a safe amount). Taper off that 30 mg of Valium via water titration. When you have done that, then convert the remaining 1 mg of Klonopin to 20 mg of Valium and then taper off of that.

I'm on a little less than 30 mg Valium day now and tapering slowly. Going slow is very important.

It sounds like your doctor is trying to fast taper you off benzos by giving you a way too low of a dose of Valium and upping the Gabapentin to prevent a seizure.

It sounds like your doctor is incompetent. You need to go slow and you need to taper off benzos, directly, whether it is Klonopin, Valium or a mix. I think a mix, like I suggested above is best.

You could just slowly directly taper off the Klonopin first till you get to 1.5 mg and then convert to 30 mg of Valium and then taper off of that. That's another option.

Also, just remember that you should not just replace Klonopin with Valium immediately. You need to gradually replace Klonopin with Valium, over about 3-4 weeks. Then wait awhile and make sure you are fine and stable on the Valium and then taper.

There's a lot of experts here, I would ask their opinion.

http://www.benzowithdrawal.com


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

You have all been very insightful and helpful to me. I am about to go over a friends house so of all times I can't risk having an anxiety attack today.

Therefore starting with my afternoon dose I'm officially back on my regular regime of 2.5 clonazepam a day until I can taper THAT down to a level where the equivalent dosage of diazepam would not scare my dr. so much.

Thank you all so much again and I will keep you posted

Edit: Infact I'm gonna take my morning dose of clonazepam right now, 5 mg diazepam ain't **** compared to the relief the clonazepam gives me


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Klonopin ftw!!! By the way 20mg diazepam= 1mg klonopin


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