# Why so much hate between heterosexual men and women lately ?



## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

When all the MGTOWS and feminists die out will we get back to loving heterosexual relationships ?

The more I read into gender studies the more cynical it makes me of the modern dating arena. The modern dating arena seems more like a battlefield than ever !

All I read online and hear on Tv nowadays are statements which usually go like this : 
"all women are selfish !" 
"all men are selfish" 
"all men care about is sex" 
"all women care about is their own self" 
"men aren't necessary as parents" 
"women put their jobs above their kids" 
"all men are dead beat fathers"
"marriage is slavery for women, a woman should be independent"
"divorce is financial bondage for men so it is best not marry"
"a man is too insecure to accept a woman who earns more than he"
"a woman who earns too much more than her man, stops finding him sexy"

I could go on, but you get the picture.

It almost makes me inclined to take a MGTOW point of view but.

I am in a loving relationship and *I would like my girlfriend and I to get married without all the external politically correct bull**** tearing us apart. *

But I am scared. I am scared that one day one of us might let the gender wars rhetoric slip into our mind and cause us to divorce even if, there is no actual conflict between us.

We need to stop this. 
*MEN, all women are not out to take your money and children away from you.

WOMEN, all men are not out to use you for sex, and trap you in the kitchen 
*
Congratulations world, racism was bad enough, but now this rampant sexism on both sides driving us apart.....
WE NEED TO LOVE EACH OTHER

There must be a way for both sexes to feel empowered with the other feeling degraded.

Instead of focusing so much on deadbeat dads..why don't we truly celebrate father's day ?
Instead of focusing so much on the wage gap... why not focus on happy couples who compromise and work together despite the wage gap.
Instead of focusing so much on the "evils" of gender stereotypes vs the "emasculation of men" ...why not instead focus on couples where the gender roles are an equal mix of role-reversal and tradition.
LOVE PEOPLE. LOVE AND COMPROMISE.


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## gopherinferno (Apr 7, 2009)

this thread is like a party i don't really wanna go to but i'm obliged to make an appearance


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## Farideh (Nov 13, 2011)

Let's be honest, Many people have given bad reputations on their own gender. Not every single person is like those examples you've mentioned. I agree on that. Women really need to work on supporting and even complimenting each other and that goes for men as well. Sure we all have our own rights to choose who to get along with, but their physical and mental health will probably improve if they stop getting angry over nonsense.


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## Crystalline (Dec 1, 2008)

Lulz

I'm a feminist and all my friends are men. The microcosms of the internetz are what they are (and do a very poor job of reflecting reality). Real life goes on.

Here's another angle that few people realize. The media makes a greater profit off of presenting polarized positions in a sensationalist manner (look at most pieces that tackle opposing views). The more radically polarized they are or as presented, the more controversy is generated. We are in a sense being pitted against each other for titillation and profit and everyone plays along.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I think this is an issue that is amplified on certain areas of the internet (and this forum is one of them,) but actually isn't so common in reality (at least not where I've ever lived, but I'd assume in general.)

Before I started using this site more actively back in 2012 I didn't hear much about any of this stuff and I think it's only really in the last couple of years mgtow became more of a thing and feminism became more popular again. I first heard about mgtow in 2014.

I've known (in the past cause I'm kind of a hermit now) women who don't agree with feminism or large parts of it and there are lots of men that aren't fans of mgtow as well. Even some men and women who criticise feminism aren't fan of mgtow because they feel like a large part of that community has been taken over by the male equivalent of hardcore feminists.

I do think marriage is less appealing to young people now but to be honest that's not for lack of interest in committed relationships.

And it's funny that you bring this up because I go on facebook very rarely now but did a few days ago and one of the top statuses was from a woman criticising the TV show loose women for being misandric.

But there is a divide online sometimes (and obviously in all countries some people feel this way,) and it does make me really sad to read about how people are completely against women because 'it's in their nature to be evil' essentially. Hearing women say similar stuff doesn't make me as sad (for obvious reasons, I'm a woman,) but does make me feel exasperated and annoyed if what they've said seems unjust and biased against men.

Of course this general environment also leads people to overreact to statements made about their gender because they become used to reading so much actually sexist stuff that everything they read gets sorted into 'is this overly nice to men/women or not?'

Anyway, I think ultimately people's desire for a connection with the gender they are attracted to will generally force most people to think more positively about the opposite gender. Even incredibly sexist people generally still want some kind of connection with the opposite gender. So the cognitive dissonance would be too much.

*Note:* I'm not saying that all feminists or mgtow supporters are sexist/misandric/misogynistic just that there are lots of theories that are in both movements.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

Crystalline said:


> The microcosms of the internetz are what they are (and do a very poor job of reflecting reality). Real life goes on.
> 
> Here's another angle that few people realize. The media makes a greater profit off of presenting polarized positions in a sensationalist manner (look at most pieces that tackle opposing views). The more radically polarized they are or as presented, the more controversy is generated. We are in a sense being pitted against each other for titillation and profit and everyone plays along.





Persephone The Dread said:


> I think this is an issue that is amplified on certain areas of the internet (and this forum is one of them,) but actually isn't so common in reality (at least not where I've ever lived, but I'd assume in general.)
> 
> Before I started using this site more actively back in 2012 I didn't hear much about any of this stuff and I think it's only really in the last couple of years mgtow became more of a thing and feminism became more popular again. I first heard about mgtow in 2014


Yup. All of this.


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## a degree of freedom (Sep 28, 2011)

At the end of the day, nearly everyone will treat each other with decency. ("In the final analysis, the only sin is despair.")


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## Morpheus (May 26, 2006)

Don't stereotype the other gender.


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## Cenarius (Aug 2, 2014)

I just want sex.


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## gopherinferno (Apr 7, 2009)

Cenarius said:


> I just want sex.


We know.


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## Cenarius (Aug 2, 2014)

gopherinferno said:


> We know.


Some here think I hate women, or don't like how I talk about women. But I don't actually hate women, I'm just really indifferent to them. If just one of them would **** me one time then all women everywhere could just forget I exist because I'll never bother them again.


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## gopherinferno (Apr 7, 2009)

Cenarius said:


> Some here think I hate women, or don't like how I talk about women. But I don't actually hate women, I'm just really indifferent to them. *If just one of them would **** me one time then all women everywhere could just forget I exist because I'll never bother them again.*


honey i promise you that isn't true


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

*Thank you*



Persephone The Dread said:


> I think this is an issue that is amplified on certain areas of the internet (and this forum is one of them,) but actually isn't so common in reality (at least not where I've ever lived, but I'd assume in general.)
> 
> Before I started using this site more actively back in 2012 I didn't hear much about any of this stuff and I think it's only really in the last couple of years mgtow became more of a thing and feminism became more popular again. I first heard about mgtow in 2014.
> 
> ...


About the highlighted part. Obviously because I am a man, the arguments put forward by the MGTOWs hit home for me ....I have to make a conscious effort* not to* read too deeply into it because I can feel how it could easy make me a bitter woman-hater.

It's kind of like when I first logged onto this website. The relationships section was filled with threads which always began with the premise "shy men have it harder in the dating world" I myself am guilty of creating one of those threads, because at the time I was still a virgin, and this was how I felt.

These threads would always end in heated debates and get closed. Eventually they banned those type of threads here. I think that was a good thing.

The point is, something in life will always be unfair. If you spend all of your energy looking for injustice and discrimination, you will always see it.

I just wish the media would start showing more positive messages and stop focusing so much on polarizing negative stereotypes that do nothing but drive people to hatred.


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## HelpfulHero (Aug 14, 2013)

The answer is simple. Everyone wants everything while giving up nothing and that is not realistic.


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## kageri (Oct 2, 2014)

I don't find the real world to reflect such views and problems that often. I don't know anyone who really believes in what you posted. I know there are some people with problems out there and we all have a horrible bf/gf story or 3 if we've been dating. I don't even see the problems on this forum or the views you mentioned when I go to other forums. We joke about the headaches of our partners here and there but it isn't people believing in stereotypes or hating the other gender. When you are with someone a lot they will annoy you in some way on occasion or frequently for some. This is a problem of the internet and more concentrated in some places like this forum.


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

HelpfulHero said:


> *The answer is simple. Everyone wants everything while giving up nothing and that is not realistic.*





kageri said:


> I don't find the real world to reflect such views and problems that often. I don't know anyone who really believes in what you posted. I know there are some people with problems out there and we all have a horrible bf/gf story or 3 if we've been dating. I don't even see the problems on this forum or the views you mentioned when I go to other forums. We joke about the headaches of our partners here and there but it isn't people believing in stereotypes or hating the other gender. When you are with someone a lot they will annoy you in some way on occasion or frequently for some. *This is a problem of the internet and more concentrated in some places like this forum.*


I would have to agree with the first quote very much. The most vocal voice on these issues unfortunately speak as if they are always right, the otherside is always wrong, and there can be no compromise. I don't know how the ____ any of these *activists* expect to find a loving stable relationship without compromise. Compromise is the name of the game. There is no loving relationship without compromise.

To the second quote. I really hope you are right; because what I see on the internet...its frightening at times the level of hatred.


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## Mikko (Jan 21, 2014)

When? I don't know. Will they ever get sick of it? I don't think so.
Nothing can satisfy a human.


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## XxCrystalXx (Jun 24, 2015)

Can't we all just get along?


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

Cenarius said:


> Some here think I hate women, or don't like how I talk about women. But I don't actually hate women, I'm just really indifferent to them. *If just one of them would **** me one time then all women everywhere could just forget I exist because I'll never bother them again.*


 I don't know if you hate women or not but you clearly don't understand how this sex thing works.

Basically, every man alive just wants pu&sy and (most) women are utterly disgusted by that.

Now you can debate about whether that's natural or innate but that's the world you live in. How it got that way is pretty irrelevant. It's like being angry that money doesn't just show up in your pocket when you need to buy something. It doesn't work that way.

Basically, the world is only interested in what you have to offer. If you're begging for sex/companionship, you can safely assume that whatever it is that women want, either you don't have it or you're not advertising yourself properly.

The world of relationships is really just a marketplace in disguise (however thin that disguise may be). You're only ever as valuable to someone else as what you can do for them.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

I agree this is a "problem" exemplified on the internet which really only exists in a minute amount in real life.

People use the internet to complain and rarely to express positivity, so of course the negativity will over-saturate what we read.


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## SuperSky (Feb 16, 2011)

*Reads "mgtow" as "maximum gross takeoff weight"*
*Backs away from thread*


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## The Sleeping Dragon (Sep 29, 2011)

It's really simple: media warps reality. Forgot the internet, magazines, holywood. They all sell lies. We as a species seem to gravitate more to easy lies than hard truths. Because it's less confrontational. It's easier to hate on women, for some people out there, than look at yourself and place the problem there.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

SuperSky said:


> *Reads "mgtow" as "maximum gross takeoff weight"*
> *Backs away from thread*


Now there's a thinking of my own heart *swoons*.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

Why this matters to the topic at hand?

I am not entirely sure but cue bedtime music, I'm OUT.

I got men to attend to tomorrow and I look much more charming with 8 hrs of sleep


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## gopherinferno (Apr 7, 2009)

calichick said:


> Why this matters to the topic at hand?
> 
> I am not entirely sure but cue bedtime music, I'm OUT.
> 
> I got men to attend to tomorrow and I look much more charming with 8 hrs of sleep












this whole little spat has answered OP's question in one way, though

i'm sad.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

gopherinferno said:


> http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/lemmelone/disgust%20anger%20freakout/tumblr_inline_nrv29fQToH1ryrt58_500_zpsbrag1c4b.gif
> 
> this whole little spat has answered OP's question in one way, though
> 
> i'm sad.


You mean to say you aren't feeling the love here? Come on Gophy!


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## gopherinferno (Apr 7, 2009)

AussiePea said:


> You mean to say you aren't feeling the love here? Come on Gophy!


nah it's not a real sadness, it's more like...crying when you watch a sad movie. i'm not actually bothered. i just feel all sticky and sullied.

that's what she said

anyway. i guess everyone should just get back on topic and don't throw around stupid insulting generalizations anymore


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## Omoidekozo (May 27, 2012)

Page two is some of the craziest **** I've read on the site yet. I'm surprised it came from a female and possibly adult member.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

calichick said:


> I got men to attend to tomorrow


How is it that every time I'm laughing at your ridiculousness, you manage to utter the perfect phrase and rope me back in. I feel like I'm being played like a harmonica.


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

It's hilarious to see what't been going on while i've been away from this thread. I like the little spat between Calichick and the other respondees.....see men and women can have a nice goofy chat without getting all serious about gender stereotypes and gender wars.
Concentrating on gender stereotypes and gender wars is one way to stay perpetually single.

I would have loved to keep on hating on all the women in the world....but that is not the kind of attitude that gets a guy laid.

It's kind of like ... looking too deeply into the whole free mason **** and the music industry...if you pay too much attention to it, you can't enjoy the music anymore, because all you will be thinking about is "what subliminal message does this song have." Sometimes the song has no subliminal message, but you've become so invested in the conspiracy, that you can't appreciate an honestly positive song.

In the same way; a woman who spend all her time thinking about 'the wage gap' and 'male privilege in the work place' is akin to the man who spends all his time thinking about 'unfair family courts' and 'unfair rape accusations' .....they will both miss the chance for love because they have become too invested in the idea that "the *other* sex is out to hurt them"


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## gopherinferno (Apr 7, 2009)

VIncymon said:


> It's hilarious to see what't been going on while i've been away from this thread. I like the little spat between Calichick and the other respondees.....see men and women can have a nice goofy chat without getting all serious about gender stereotypes and gender wars.
> Concentrating on gender stereotypes and gender wars is one way to stay perpetually single.
> 
> In the same way; a woman who spend all her time thinking about 'the wage gap' and 'male privilege in the work place' is akin to the man who spends all his time thinking about 'unfair family courts' and 'unfair rape accusations' .....they will both miss the chance for love because they have become too invested in the idea that "the *other* sex is out to hurt them"


You have a good point here.

I do think it's important for people to be aware of ways people will treat them badly. I let myself be subjected to and hurt by some very misogynistic, racist, bigoted, hateful scumbags, and I wish I had known what I know now so I could have avoided that. It's important to be aware of potential evil in a person, and it's important to let people know when something they do or say is harmful, because chances are they will stop. I like to think the best of people, though.


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## shyvr6 (Feb 18, 2008)

Some posts have been removed. Please stay on-topic and continue discussing things in a civil manner.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

Ape in space said:


> How is it that every time I'm laughing at your ridiculousness, you manage to utter the perfect phrase and rope me back in. I feel like I'm being played like a harmonica.


I'm not quite sure what ridiculousness you're referring to.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

I feel like I will never find a decent man who wants to get to know me for me and not some superficial crap.

what the f*** really, why do men treat me so differently and act all subdued and out of the norm around me? 

Why the hell, I am so so so so so so so sick of being put on a pedestal by 85% of straight men. I don't even get flirted with because they don't know what to say, I have to flirt most of the time and it sucks BALLS to have to do that as a woman and initiate everything! Wtf! 

I just want to be talked to like a normal human being.

Why can't men get that through their thick skulls?

I'm losing hair because of the stress and loneliness that this bs is causing me. Ugh men


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

calichick said:


> I'm not quite sure what ridiculousness you're referring to.


It's mysteriously disappeared.


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

calichick said:


> I feel like I will never find a decent man who wants to get to know me for me and not some superficial crap.
> 
> what the f*** really, why do men treat me so differently and act all subdued and out of the norm around me?
> 
> ...


Well, do you perhaps walk in an overconfident manner ?
Apparently from your posts here you must be the hottest girl on the block or something.....

I'm sorry luv.....most men get nervous around very beautiful women ....it makes us assume that someone that beautiful must want a man who is as successful as Jay z or something.....

Just remember, there are also women here who complain that men *never try to take their friendship beyond the friend zone* because they just aren't that attractive physically.

Now I am not going to even begin to compare who has it worse. I am just merely reminding you that one person's blessing is someone else's curse.

The world isn't fair.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

senkora said:


> At the end of the day, nearly everyone will treat each other with decency. ("In the final analysis, the only sin is despair.")


Hey :twak


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

VIncymon said:


> Well, do you perhaps walk in an overconfident manner ?
> Apparently from your posts here you must be the hottest girl on the block or something.....
> 
> I'm sorry luv.....most men get nervous around very beautiful women ....it makes us assume that someone that beautiful must want a man who is as successful as Jay z or something.....
> ...


Sweetie, I am at a crossroads. I have friends who aren't attractive per society's wacko standards but they get asked out and chatted up by men far more frequently than me.

I think that I am pretty good-looking but it's odd how attractive people are treated in this day and age. It's really, really really really ODD. I am telling you here and now. You'd think it'd be an advantage yes? You'd think the world would be crawling at your feet and blowing kisses at you (well, that does happen but only when the man is in the safety of his car) and throwing themselves at you.

I am very....

Confused.

I am confused because I "believe" I'm good looking from the reactions I get (I myself am not too convinced of it quite yet because I have low self-esteem and daily anxiety and depression.)

I *believe* that I am a good-looking female based on what other people tell me.

I am tall, slender/curvy (shapely butt but small waist), I have tan skin, light honey-colored eyes, golden brown hair that hits near my bra line. I am in shape, I am in my 20s, I have a job, a personality, I am shy around new people but people know me to be very friendly and light-hearted and one of my friends said I was the nicest person she had met in a long time. I am witty, intelligent, educated and well-traveled. I don't take myself too seriously and love to laugh. I am mixed and I look Italian or South American (because of my skin but enough with that).

I'm not entirely fond of how I look. But based on what other people tell me and how men and women treat me:

My old boss used to have a thing for me.
My current boss chose his seat right next to mine and would frequently oggle me when I first started and would have this "deer in headlights" look when I tried to talk to him. Very weird man.
My friends are convinced that one of the execs at my work "has a crush" on me because of various things he's done etc.
Guys will stalk my online social media profiles but never message me. Guys from many many years ago whom I've never talked to once.
A handful of men who I've "befriended" over the past year have told me that I must get a lot of attention from guys because of the way I look and that men must try to date me only to brag to their friends later.
I think that people talk about me behind my back because this one group of guys at my work when they pass me they always noticeably giggle and look at me, esp when they think I'm not paying attention. Like little school girls.
A lot of men I pass in the hallway will look down or avert their eyes.
There are some guys who talk to me who lose themselves and will be like I forgot what I wanted to say lol, or act very fidgety and nervous around me but when they go to talk to my girlfriends, they act normal and level-headed.
When I'm walking on the street, I'll get a whole wealth of guys in their car trying to get my attention.
When I'm walking down the sidewalk men will stop and stare or stop their conversations etc
Gay men are not too fond of me. There is this gay guy that keeps referring to me as a model but I think he's pretty cute too (just a bit short)
When I'm out sometimes with my family, people will ask me if I model, or this one male waitor referred me to an agency he used to go to.
Some women -mostly blonde and asian women are always looking at me with sideways looks. I think they are gorgeous btw, but one woman once told me they are not used to having their attention stolen away from them.
when I am in a room, people and things will just kind of halt.
Some women when I try to make convo with them will not hold my eye contact. I read that this is a sign of intimidation.
Other women will respond to my inquiries with monosyllabic sentences. Very brute and boring for me.

I am very, very, VERY confused. Very, very confused. I have to initiate EVERY friggin thing 95% of the time. Very few men approach me and I DONT have this hot girl scowl you refer to. I smile and hold eye contact with people except when I'm having those down days.

In light of all this above, I've been on the least dates, of my bunch, I rarely get hit on.

You have women, average getting numbers left and right.

I get f***ing bupkis and yet, here I am, alone on a Friday night. I'm having a really hard time accepting this loneliness and actually last night, I had an "intimacy" dream. I am at such a lack of intimacy that I have to DREAM about a man holding me and it was part sad part relief. And The man in question is one who stares at me 24/7 at work. The one guy who can't take his eyes off me. Damn it.

What the hell is wrong with this picture?


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

I am very depressed. It's not everything you all think it is- the physical.

We are only the product of our own minds and if you're mentally in an unstable place than none of this s*** above matters. It's all extraneous and irrelevant in the end.


I just wish I had a man. A good, kind-hearted man.

That is all :sigh


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

Oh. A gender thread.

Meep meep.










For today anyway, lol.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

calichick said:


> I just wish I had a man. A good, kind-hearted man.
> 
> That is all :sigh


:hug

Stop intimidating the hell out of people. Being nice and friendly won't necessarily stop the intimidation. If you're beautiful, it's just adding to the impression that you're 'perfect' and making you more unapproachable.

How often do you let your guard down and just stop trying to be perfect? Vulnerability is humanizing. I'm guessing most men don't approach you because they don't want to have their self-esteem shredded.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

truant said:


> :hug
> 
> Stop intimidating the hell out of people. Being nice and friendly won't necessarily stop the intimidation. If you're beautiful, it's just adding to the impression that you're 'perfect' and making you more unapproachable.
> 
> How often do you let your guard down and just stop trying to be perfect? Vulnerability is humanizing. I'm guessing most men don't approach you because they don't want to have their self-esteem shredded.


I'm not sure what you mean by let your guard down.

I'm not trying to be perfect by any means and if I, me, the woman, do not approach both men and women alike chances are I will get nothing.

I have to smile at them, I have to make eye contact with them. I have to say something first. it seems like I have to work twice as hard as other women to "break the ice" and it makes me feel like s***, useless and unwanted.

Can you imagine in a society where most men do the approaching that here I am, needing to reach out to the guy in order to light a fire under them? If it weren't for the occasional thick-skulled man (2 in the last 2 months) who informed me that I'm actually quite attractive and intimidating, I would feel inside that I were actually not pretty at all but on the contrary hideous and unfeminine.

Sometimes I just want to be treated like the lady and made to feel pursued and all that.

And another thing, MAN'S timeline. They can wait months, YEARS even before they make a move. I have a big, big problem with that. Big.

I am very frustrated with myself most of all and have probably the lowest self-esteem imaginable. :sigh

PS I like your avatar pic Truant. Tis very fitting.


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

Calichick needs a barbarian nobody else need apply :/


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

Truant, Help me! I need to get laid. It's not a laughing matter anymore!


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## VictoryOverFear (Mar 18, 2014)

Just to clarify the thread title, are the women also heterosexual or is it heterosexual men and then just all women of every orientation?


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

blue2 said:


> Calichick needs a barbarian nobody else need apply :/


I don't need a big **** if that's what you're implying.

I'll settle for medium-large  :teeth>


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

calichick said:


> It's not a laughing matter anymore!


A now it is kinda funny


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

blue2 said:


> A now it is kinda funny


:wife


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

I don't really know what to tell you, cali. Without being able to observe your behavior 'in the wild', it's hard to diagnose where the problem might be. Even then, I might end up as confused as you are.

There's certainly an element of luck involved in relationships, so it's _possible_ that you've just been unlucky (whole lot of wrong time, wrong place) but I have a feeling the problem is deeper than that.



calichick said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by let your guard down.


Almost any behavior can be used defensively. Many people are intentionally boring or nice or funny or 'reasonable' to avoid exposing themselves to others. I know you've said you've tried being friendly and approachable, but I can't tell from a post on a forum what that actually looks like in practice. It's possible that you're still rejecting people when they get too close because you're afraid of being vulnerable around them. Do you have trust issues? Are you excessively concerned about getting hurt? Are you afraid of abandonment? You may be sabotaging yourself.



calichick said:


> I'm not trying to be perfect by any means and if I, me, the woman, do not approach both men and women alike chances are I will get nothing.
> 
> I have to smile at them, I have to make eye contact with them. I have to say something first. it seems like I have to work twice as hard as other women to "break the ice" and it makes me feel like s***, useless and unwanted.


If you're beautiful, then none of this really surprises me. Many women will resent you by default, and every man is going to develop a case of performance anxiety around you. Less attractive (though still attractive) women will get approached because there's less pressure on the men to perform 'flawlessly'; men will be more inclined to take risks and be themselves around them.

You're not useless and unwanted; it's the opposite. Men feel (probably with some justification) that they're not up to the task of courting you. They're going to expect you to have high standards which they're not sure they can meet. It's easier for them to disqualify themselves than endure the pain of rejection. You can't throw an emoticon in this forum without hitting a man who feels this way about _most_ women, let alone very attractive ones.



calichick said:


> *Can you imagine in a society where most men do the approaching that here I am, needing to reach out to the guy in order to light a fire under them?* If it weren't for the occasional thick-skulled man (2 in the last 2 months) who informed me that I'm actually quite attractive and intimidating, *I would feel inside that I were actually not pretty at all but on the contrary hideous and unfeminine.
> 
> Sometimes I just want to be treated like the lady and made to feel pursued and all that.*


Imagine it? You're *describing* my world. :lol



calichick said:


> And another thing, MAN'S timeline. They can wait months, YEARS even before they make a move. I have a big, big problem with that. Big.
> 
> I am very frustrated with myself most of all and have probably the lowest self-esteem imaginable. :sigh


Chin up. Use that devious brain of yours. You have a superpower, you just haven't learned how to control it yet.



calichick said:


> PS I like your avatar pic Truant. Tis very fitting.


Thanks. I'm fond of it myself. :grin2:


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

truant said:


> I don't really know what to tell you, cali. Without being able to observe your behavior 'in the wild', it's hard to diagnose where the problem might be. Even then, I might end up as confused as you are.
> 
> There's certainly an element of luck involved in relationships, so it's _possible_ that you've just been unlucky (whole lot of wrong time, wrong place) but I have a feeling the problem is deeper than that.
> 
> ...


I don't think I'm beautiful actually. The sight of myself in the mirror turns my stomach nauseous and I try to avoid them when out in public.

I have an excessive fear of abandonment and rejection but that doesn't detract from the fact that I am very open with men and women alike. I encourage conversation, I have welcoming body language (i guess that's an issue since some people are not comfortable with a woman who is so forthright and "confident" in her stance especially considering I am built quite the woman..if you know what I mean) I smile, I hold eye contact.

Hence, my friend telling me I was one of the most friendly and inviting people she had ever met.

I am that way in a way because I am so utterly lonely inside and I crave intimacy. If I was not this way, if I was moody and depressed, people would say I'm one stuck-up b****.

Thanks for hearing me out. I just wish more men would approach me instead of ME having to do most of the work and the only guys who do are stupid taken guys who aren't worth a dime and who I guess feel they have nothing to lose with me. Wtf


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## Apoc Revolution (Dec 2, 2013)

_And this is why I don't take dating seriously anymore. At least not until all genders start approaching eachother equally as often, which is never going to happen. _


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

calichick said:


> Thanks for hearing me out.


Well, best of luck. I wish I could help more, cali, but you're stumping me. Normally I'd recommend the opposite, but have you tried a dating service?


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

truant said:


> Well, best of luck. I wish I could help more, cali, but you're stumping me. Normally I'd recommend the opposite, but have you tried a dating service?


Yea....the case of Calichick baffles me. As a guy I have only experienced this very occasionally.

Growing up, I was bullied by the bigger more athletic guys. I was very skinny and I wear glasses. So I always *assumed all the girls saw a skinny nerd with glasses*

However, upon leaving high school, a girl in my class came up to tell me that she actually had a crush on me for a while now...but she was moving away with her parents.

The same thing happened after college.
The samething happened after my PreMed year ...just at the point when the university dispersed us to different hospitals around the state ....someone comes and tells me that this girl in my class had a crush on me.

Basically everytime I was about to move away, I find out that some girl has a crush on me.

*BUT* unlike Calichick I was able to overcome this by finally accepting that I am more than just the ugly-nerd I thought I was, and started approaching girls myself. Eventually I asked out the girl that would later become my GF for the past 4 yrs.

So...it really baffles me how it is that despite making the first contact, Calichick still can't get a hit.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Since this thread is here... The greatest general issue I tend to have with guys isn't something people really talk about:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080303145228.htm

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8605-brain-scans-reveal-mens-pleasure-in-revenge/

As you can see, I know why, but I still find it massivelly off putting when I anecdotally run into this kind of attitude.

When I come across a guy with a greater than average sense of empathy, that likes animals and saves insects instead of killing them, doesn't put punishment first in decision making, cares about what happens to bad people as well as good people, doesn't say things like 'men can't be raped,' has sympathy for men as well as women.

I'm just like. :3 look it's a unicorn! Or a dragon. Dragons are also cool and rare. Or a Pikachu, they're rare too.


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

All dem serious responses tho










Trolololol










Respect.


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## Amorphousanomaly (Jun 20, 2012)

Regular people IRL are usually alright. Avoid the internet if this kind of thing bothers you too much.


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## VictoryOverFear (Mar 18, 2014)

When dealing with guys, you honestly just have to lower your standards for behavior, and you have to keep your emotional distance. I know we all crave it but you are not going to find a guy who actually loves you, at least not the way you think love should be.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Since this thread is here... The greatest general issue I tend to have with guys isn't something people really talk about:
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080303145228.htm
> 
> ...


This is a really good point, actually. I find that many men are very judgmental and severe, and it often makes it difficult for me to communicate with them.

I'm an empathizer, and I find it really hard to stay mad at people and really easy to forgive them, and I'm also hard to anger, so when I talk to men about their relationships I'm often surprised by how vehement they are about perceived slights and how categorical they are about other people -- wrong me once (even if unintentionally, and only because I misunderstood or made unfounded assumptions about your behavior) and you're forever my enemy. If you don't love me, you must hate me. If you're not in love with me, we can't be friends because there's no point to the relationship. Etc.

I'm not saying that all men are like this, or that women aren't like this, only that this extreme stance toward relationships tends to be more common, and more powerful, in my experience, among men and it's something that constantly causes me problems when I talk to them. It makes me afraid to say anything sometimes because I'm afraid they'll turn on me. I don't tend to have this problem talking to women because we can usually work through our differences without a lot of strong, negative emotions.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

VictoryOverFear said:


> When dealing with guys, you honestly just have to lower your standards for behavior, and you have to keep your emotional distance. I know we all crave it but you are not going to find a guy who actually loves you, at least not the way you think love should be.


Love grows over time and requires effort from both sides. Seems like most of the women on here want some guy to just show up 110% perfect from day one. Never going to happen.


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## BillDauterive (Oct 24, 2012)

If not outright hatred, then at least lots of mistrust and suspicion in recent times.

Men are afraid of women using them for money, marrying them for security and then divorcing them and taking away half their assets and children (if they had any), nagging them, taking away their freedoms in a relationship, being chosen as the "beta" provider after having had her fun with lots of guys when she was younger, etc.

Women are afraid of men cheating on them, using them for sex, sexual/physical/emotional abuse, sexual assault, rape, etc. 

No wonder something like marriage rates are plummeting in the West. I myself as a man, am going to naturally be sympathetic and know the plight of men and I don't blame them one bit for wanting to MGTOW and avoid marriage.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

truant said:


> Well, best of luck. I wish I could help more, cali, but you're stumping me. Normally I'd recommend the opposite, but have you tried a dating service?


Yes. I have tried it in the past and was strongly disappointed.

See the thing is, I am so, so reliant on observation of a man in his environment and how he interacts with me in order to sense if there's chemistry between us.

I just don't understand dating sites and being able to find a man through virtual reality that will make you just melt. And I'm not talking about face. Body. Job. Lol. I'm talking about that expression in his eyes when he's looking at you. About his mannerisms and his scent and everything that cannot possibly be judged through a screen.

Thanks hun  how's your love life going? I hope more eventful than mine >


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

VIncymon said:


> Yea....the case of Calichick baffles me. As a guy I have only experienced this very occasionally.
> 
> Growing up, I was bullied by the bigger more athletic guys. I was very skinny and I wear glasses. So I always *assumed all the girls saw a skinny nerd with glasses*
> 
> ...


I relate to a lot of things that you said.

I mean, let me just say WOW. Wow my god the BRAIN is the most powerful weapon in this universe. You can be the most gorgeous or well-liked person in this universe, but if you have chronic low self-esteem, depression, anxiety, PTSD, you are magnifying a completely different picture of how you interpret your self-image and your own misconstrued world.

It is so strange. I feel like a cloak has been over me and I'm starting to just peek out under it and I know for a fact that a lot of people here can relate, some are just longer ways from others in confronting their *irrational fears* and self-doubts. Embracing themselves and whatnot.

About "getting a hit", well...my situation is kind of odd.

I initiate with men I am not interested in...for practice so to speak. So I flirt with men I have no romantic intentions with. But a lot of men are pretty shy by me and it tends to be annoying.

I mean it took my pissy boss 6 months to actually be able to say more than one sentence to me without having that deer in headlights look he's so strange this man :mum


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

I read some advice online before from a woman who said that a lot of men were intimidated by how she looked and that the only solution was for her to ask out a guy. And that now she is happily married.

I bet a lot of SAS guys here would love it if a hot chick stumbled into their lives out of nowhere and was clamoring on her knees for them to go out with her.

Oh my god. That chick isn't going to be me in the near future but I'm tired of being single :lol

Gonna go drown myself it's so hot in Cali...ffff


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## Staticnz (Mar 25, 2013)

Didn't read thread but who am I fighting????!


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Men and women have always had a difference of opinion, but these days everyone is being radicalized with half-baked social theory.

Believe it or not, the world is simpler when you treat people like individuals instead of treating them as members of X or Y class.

-- Zone of Offtopicness --



calichick said:


> I just don't understand dating sites and being able to find a man through virtual reality that will make you just melt. And I'm not talking about face. Body. Job. Lol. I'm talking about that expression in his eyes when he's looking at you. About his mannerisms and his scent and everything that cannot possibly be judged through a screen.


Yeah, I'm not keen on dating sites, either. I just don't know what else to recommend.



calichick said:


> Thanks hun  how's your love life going? I hope more eventful than mine >


My love life is on standby. I was in a serious LTR, but that ended last year. I'm focusing on me right now. Rebuilding myself from the ground up, physically, mentally, and financially. Because, lord knows, I need money. So, so much money.

-- End of Zone of Offtopicness --


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## VictoryOverFear (Mar 18, 2014)

But what we agreed on was that women should expect less from men.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Moreso that nobody is perfect and people of both genders need to enter the dating scene with the knowledge that compromise is a necessity.


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## dontwaitupforme (Feb 23, 2013)

Ugh I think this is complete bs.. Sometimes having friends of the opposite sex is actually pretty stimulating, you get different perspectives and opinions which is refreshing. I like to have a laugh with guys. This drama needs to knock itself on the head. Hyper sensitivity and immaturity is what I think it boils down to. 


Seriously.. Please.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> When I come across a guy with a greater than average sense of empathy, that likes animals and saves insects instead of killing them, doesn't put punishment first in decision making, cares about what happens to bad people as well as good people, has sympathy for men as well as women.


I think there are more guys out there with these qualities but with gender roles and social pressure, sometimes they mask it or don't show it because it isn't "manly" and they could face criticism and shaming - from both other men and women- for "being a wuss" etc.

I actually identify with a lot of things in your above quoted paragraph- except I do kill bugs in the house- but I don't show or tell most people I feel that way about things because of what I stated above. I feel like I'm wearing a sort of man mask/filter when interacting with others sometimes. I'd get teased for some behaviors or showing too much empathy in certain situations growing up so I learned to adjust my behavior around people most of the time.

For example when I was little kid in elementary school I received a calendar for Christmas with different breeds of dogs in them for each month because I really like dogs. Each month would have a new dog and say what breed it was and info about it. I took it to school one day and got laughed at and told "that's a girl's calendar" even though there was nothing particularly feminine about it. It wasn't pink or anything.

Also some guys that feel that way might think it would be a turn off to women if they let that part of themselves out. So they might feel that way inwardly but don't say it out loud for fear of not being viewed as "real man."


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Darktower776 said:


> I think there are more guys out there with these qualities but with gender roles and social pressure, sometimes they mask it or don't show it because it isn't "manly" and they could face criticism - from both other men and women- for "being a wuss" etc.
> 
> I actually identify with a lot of things in your above quoted paragraph- except I do kill bugs in the house- but I don't show or tell most people I feel that way about things because of what I stated above. I feel like I'm wearing a sort of man mask/filter when interacting with others sometimes. I'd get teased for some behaviors or showing too much empathy in certain situations growing up so I learned to adjust my behavior around people most of the time.
> 
> Also some guys that feel that way might think it would be a turn off to women if they let that part of themselves out. So they might feel that way inwardly but don't say it out loud for fear of not being viewed as "real man."


Yeah I'd assume that partially accounts for it. I think a lot of it though, comes down to the fact that men tend to be more decisive (not always, but in general) and as a result are less open minded. Sometimes that's a positive trait, other times it's not.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

calichick said:


> And I'm not talking about face. Body. Job. Lol. I'm talking about that expression in his eyes when he's looking at you. About his mannerisms and his scent and everything that cannot possibly be judged through a screen.


This has been discouraging me lately about having to date again. I'm kind of a strange guy in that I don't want to play the whole chasing game. I know I have worth and I know that the things I want out of life are usually the traditional and stable things I should be able to have, but when I dated a long time ago women were so flaky and most of them really didn't even have a clue what they wanted. When I met my fiancée I was struck immediately by everything about her, and from the first day I met her I loved pretty much everything about her. I tried to treat her right every day and I tried to be loving and kind and compassionate. She was very beautiful but on top of that she had a great sense of humor and made me feel much happier to be around her. The chances of finding that kind of chemistry again leave me feeling so depressed sometimes.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

knightofdespair said:


> This has been discouraging me lately about having to date again. I'm kind of a strange guy in that I don't want to play the whole chasing game. I know I have worth and I know that the things I want out of life are usually the traditional and stable things I should be able to have, but when I dated a long time ago women were so flaky and most of them really didn't even have a clue what they wanted. When I met my fiancée I was struck immediately by everything about her, and from the first day I met her I loved pretty much everything about her. I tried to treat her right every day and I tried to be loving and kind and compassionate. She was very beautiful but on top of that she had a great sense of humor and made me feel much happier to be around her. The chances of finding that kind of chemistry again leave me feeling so depressed sometimes.


I feel you.

But women are flaky?

Eh no. Do you know what we women have to deal with on a daily basis?

I have very little respect for most men.

It is SO, SOOO extremely hard to find a good, committed man.

Ugh, it disgusts me.


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## Staticnz (Mar 25, 2013)

Wtf. I swear I had some posts in this thread. Half the stuff I say gets removed by the staff. Can't they understand I have a sense of humor!?!? They seem to take everything I say seriously, as a troll or provocative. I keep getting penalized for the inability of other people to understand what I'm talking about. A total pain. Fine I'll stay out of this thread then. Sigh.


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## gopherinferno (Apr 7, 2009)

Staticnz said:


> Wtf. I swear I had some posts in this thread. Half the stuff I say gets removed by the staff. Can't they understand I have a sense of humor!?!? They seem to take everything I say seriously, as a troll or provocative. I keep getting penalized for the inability of other people to understand what I'm talking about. A total pain. Fine I'll stay out of this thread then. Sigh.


same. i get quote notifications for deleted posts all the time. like damn at least let me see what went down.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

gopherinferno said:


> same. i get quote notifications for deleted posts all the time. like damn at least let me see what went down.


Ikr. They should at least let you read all the horrible things people said about you. I prefer to read other people's insults over imagining them, since I'm much better at insulting myself than other people are.


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## gopherinferno (Apr 7, 2009)

Esteban said:


> .


i love how much effort you're putting into this. bless your heart.


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## Esteban (Dec 8, 2014)

gopherinferno said:


> i love how much effort you're putting into this. bless your heart.


.


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## Staticnz (Mar 25, 2013)

As a man who agrees with the ideals behind feminism you are horribly offending me right now.


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## gopherinferno (Apr 7, 2009)

Staticnz said:


> As a man who agrees with the ideals behind feminism you are horribly offending me right now.


the only offensive thing about what he's doing is that it isn't funny enough.

i mean, by all means, someone please do what he's doing, but....do it _well_? is that so much to ask? just saying "patriarchy" over and over again is lame. that post in the thread about braces was pretty good though.

this i like a girl with no booty tryin to twerk. try as hard as she might, she doesn't have the goods.


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## VictoryOverFear (Mar 18, 2014)

calichick said:


> I have very little respect for most men.
> 
> It is SO, SOOO extremely hard to find a good, committed man.


.


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## Buckyx (Nov 1, 2014)

because if you tried to say the same about gays then you would have a problem, disrupting real values


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## Esteban (Dec 8, 2014)

gopherinferno said:


> the only offensive thing about what he's doing is that it isn't funny enough.
> 
> i mean, by all means, someone please do what he's doing, but....do it _well_? is that so much to ask? just saying "patriarchy" over and over again is lame. that post in the thread about braces was pretty good though.
> 
> this i like a girl with no booty tryin to twerk. try as hard as she might, she doesn't have the goods.


.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

truant said:


> Ikr. They should at least let you read all the horrible things people said about you. I prefer to read other people's insults over imagining them, since I'm much better at insulting myself than other people are.


.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

calichick said:


> I feel you.
> 
> But women are flaky?
> 
> ...


This is such a general complaint though.. Most of the guys you're describing by saying this would fit pretty much anybody I know including the ones that have been married happily for a long time. Yeah the women were flakes, but it was when I was about 20 which was a while ago. I would try to get to know them or actually make some kind of connection and they were so artificial or shallow or dumb that it went nowhere.. I'm a very laid back kind of a guy - I can deal with just about anyone or anything so long as its not personally intended to piss me off, but these women give you absolutely nothing to go with. I need someone with a sense of humor, someone who isn't dumb as hell, someone who likes to do things together but is also just fine hanging out at home a lot too. I hate the feeling that I have to be performing and dazzling all day long every day or she will bail, which thankfully my fiancée was never like that. We had fun wherever we went, we found interesting things to talk about and enjoy wherever we went. I enjoyed her company as much at the end of a long day with her as I did at the beginning.

Like a lot of women it strongly feels like you're expecting all of these men to be mindreaders and know exactly what you want without any kind of communication or effort on your part. Men face a very strange world right now between economics, politics, expectation of other men and women, and global trends that have a lot of us in this very uncomfortable limbo. You are never going to find the guy you want premade, you are going to have to build him one day at a time.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Your standards are too damn high!


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## Staticnz (Mar 25, 2013)

Esteban said:


> .


.


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## shyvr6 (Feb 18, 2008)

This thread is done.


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