# Do you plan on having children?



## ChronicallyChronic (Oct 11, 2017)

This is something that I have thought a lot about in recent years, but I have decided to never have children.
Life is just too difficult.
Plus having children is too much effort, money and stress the way I see it.
Now being a guy I have no biological urge to have children so to women it must be harder to reach this decision but for me it's easy.


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## Virgo (Jun 27, 2016)

I feel very strongly about this subject. I will never have children.

I know it was a biological mistake that I was born. There are so many things wrong with the wiring of my brain. I'm wired to feel the wrong way; without medication, I am severely depressed and can't really function (even with medication I still experience bouts of depression). I am wired to be the weakest link and to be easily pushed around... and maybe I am much stronger, maybe that's true, but otherwise my entire childhood I was bullied, I'm obviously a certain "type" of person that is more negative to be than positive. I'm wired to physically hurt myself, what could be more faulty than that? Think about this, what would be the point of creating a machine that destroys itself? It's the same concept, why do I exist? Yet here I am, so I just need to live out the rest of my life. But with my genetics, it would be grossly unfair to try and have a child who could end up like me!

My entire family line is very unsuccessful. And I believe history repeats itself. Besides some odd exceptions, successful families have successful kids... and vice versa. I am not of a successful family. My parents have many severe problems of their own. I hate to say, but I was also raised poorly, and quite frankly often ignored. I would have zero skills to raise successful children. I couldn't take care of myself, ever, let alone a freakin' _kid_. Plus there are genetic issues in my family too that make them the way they are, it's just time to end this cycle already.

It was a difficult conclusion honestly because I used to want children, but it's just not meant to be. Nowadays though, I look forward to not having kids. Having a stress free, enjoyable life with a significant other seems perfect for me. I think that's what I'm becoming to truly want.


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## SamanthaStrange (Jan 13, 2015)

Nope.


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## cybernaut (Jul 30, 2010)

Not right now. Crazy debt, still in school, need a good career, and crazy lifestyle.If I have them, then it won't be until my very late 20s/early30s.

I'm sure that I will make a good mother though since I'm 10 years older than my brother, and he viewed me as a motherly figure back when I lived with him and my parents.


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## ChronicallyChronic (Oct 11, 2017)

I am sure most answers here will be no because we all have ****ty lives and are all depressed af lol but seriously even if I wasn't depressed and my life were good I would not want to have children.
Like what's the point of having children?


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

I'd consider rearing one or two for eating, put em in the freezer for Christmas or whatever :stu


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## Virgo (Jun 27, 2016)

ChronicallyChronic said:


> I am sure most answers here will be no because we all have ****ty lives and are all depressed af lol but seriously even if I wasn't depressed and my life were good I would not want to have children.
> Like what's the point of having children?


I remember when I wanted children, the point for me was because I wanted to nurture someone and watch them grow and provide them with a good life. There was something fulfilling about that idea, and it was more so about the child, rather than myself and what I wanted. I just wanted to give my life to something and watch it flourish. I remember thinking of all the things I would do differently from my parents.

The problem is that society does not see having children as a luxury, they see it as something that everyone has to do because that's "just the next stage in life" which is just sick. I am totally against poor people having children. Don't have kids unless you can financially take care of yourself times 3. Don't have kids unless you have so much money collectively with a _significant other_ that you don't know what to even do with it, lol. Children are a HUGE luxury that most people can't afford!


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## ChronicallyChronic (Oct 11, 2017)

Virgo said:


> ChronicallyChronic said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure most answers here will be no because we all have ****ty lives and are all depressed af lol but seriously even if I wasn't depressed and my life were good I would not want to have children.
> ...


Yeah I totally agree with you.
But like you said the best is just you and a partner and that's it.
Having sex all day long lol
Most couples start hating each other after having children and they have much less sex if at all.


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## Scrub-Zero (Feb 9, 2004)

No kids for me.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

99999


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## riverbird (Mar 30, 2016)

For most of my life, I was dead set on having kids. Being a mother was all that I wanted. Then in late 2015/early 2016 that changed and I became dead set on the idea that kids weren't in the cards for me and became content with that. Now I'm still mostly in the no zone, but I have days where I think it might be nice to maybe have one or two. But then all of the reasons that I decided I didn't want them anymore are still there and I know it's probably better that way. I don't know.


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## Crisigv (Aug 3, 2013)

Not very likely


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## Tetragammon (Jun 2, 2015)

Definitely not, and my SA has little to do with it. I am quite happily childfree.


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## TuxedoChief (Jan 11, 2015)

I can barely look after myself.


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## iAmCodeMonkey (May 23, 2010)

No. Not anymore.


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## SilentLyric (Aug 20, 2012)

someone has to around here and create the next generation of sas users. so, yeah, I'll be having kids.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

My genetics isn't that great. Physically I'm quite healthy. I've gotten away without having health insurance for 20 years. 

But mentally.....ugh....not sure if I'd want to deal with a child that has my issues, very low energy, chronically mildly depressed, and somewhat autistic. I can be rather cold and unloving. My sister has borderline personality disorder. 

20 years later my kid would be complaining here about their unaffectionate mother who forced them to be play in silence


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

I always wanted kids (still do) but for obvious reasons I'm not having them. I'd adopt, but I can't afford them and I'd never be accepted.

I come from a big family, and both my parents love kids, so I think I just have childrearing genetics.


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## ChronicallyChronic (Oct 11, 2017)

komorikun said:


> My genetics isn't that great. Physically I'm quite healthy. I've gotten away without having health insurance for 20 years.
> 
> But mentally.....ugh....not sure if I'd want to deal with a child that has my issues, very low energy, chronically mildly depressed, and somewhat autistic. I can be rather cold and unloving. My sister has borderline personality disorder.
> 
> 20 years later my kid would be complaining here about their unaffectionate mother who forced them to be play in silence


Same here.
I don't want to have children only for them to end up depressed and socially anxious as me.


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

^ Yeah same. 
Crappy genes. Also I don't have the emotional, social or financial resources to bring out the best in them.


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## Blue Dino (Aug 17, 2013)

I think I have lots more on my plate to overcome before I will even be in the situation to consider about having kids. I think there is a bigger chance that 100% of the world will convert to renewable energy, than me ever getting there. 

Honestly I don't really think I even aspire to be a parent. I am more aspired to have a happy and comfortable and stable life. And having kids isn't something that is part of me achieving those.


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## Wren611 (Oct 19, 2012)

ChronicallyChronic said:


> This is something that I have thought a lot about in recent years, but I have decided to never have children.
> Life is just too difficult.
> Plus having children is too much effort, money and stress the way I see it.
> Now *being a guy I have no biological urge to have children *so to women it must be harder to reach this decision but for me it's easy.


Men can definitely have a biological urge to have kids, just as strongly as women. And not all women have a biological urge to have kids. It's a natural desire that anyone can have.

Personally, I could never be selfish enough to have kids of my own. I don't plan to but if I did bring kids into my life, I would foster or adopt.


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## ChronicallyChronic (Oct 11, 2017)

Wren611 said:


> ChronicallyChronic said:
> 
> 
> > This is something that I have thought a lot about in recent years, but I have decided to never have children.
> ...


We don't have a womb...


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## Kilgore Trout (Aug 10, 2014)

I think for people like me to have kids is not less horrible than evil genetic experiments. The outcome is most likely a lifetime of suffering.


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## veron (Apr 29, 2009)

I used to want to have kids, but then I realized that this was mostly because of my family drilling it into my head whenever I saw them. I cannot see my parents, or anyone else from my family, without hearing how I need to give birth, how my life will be a huge waste if I don't have kids, blah blah blah. But when I take away all that, I realize that I just don't like kids all that much. Most people go "awww" when they see babies or small children - not me. I guess they can be entertaining for a while, and sometimes I enjoyed playing with them, but after like an hour, I've had it enough and just let the parent take their kid back. I cannot imaging having to take care of a baby 24/7.


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

I do like kids, and they usually like me. Babies are exhausting though. I'd babysit my niece and be trashed after an hour, even when she was being really good. Once you get through that phase it's up and down (toddlers are bad too) but generally less difficult because they get less demanding at least on a hourly basis. If I were normal and well adjusted I'd probably opt to have children.


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## Mur (Jan 20, 2011)

Nein


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## Canadian Brotha (Jan 23, 2009)

I’m pretty sure if it ever happens it’ll be by surprise not by intention


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## BAH (Feb 12, 2012)

Seeing that I'm sort of a backup parent to my niece and nephew..probably not.


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## Scrub-Zero (Feb 9, 2004)

SilentLyric said:


> someone has to around here and create the next generation of sas users. so, yeah, I'll be having kids.


Contact the site owners. Maybe they'll give you some money if you have more than one. A small investment for the site's future and such.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

ChronicallyChronic said:


> We don't have a womb...


I don't think women are into the whole pregnancy thing. From what I've read it seems the vast majority of women do not like being pregnant.

It's more that they want a child to take care of.


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## RickandMorty100years (Oct 6, 2017)

Nope, not biologically at least. Mental illness runs in my family on both sides, our whole family is full of crazies and I'm not continuing that. I have nothing against kids at all though. 

If I find a partner I would like to foster some kids, I'd like to help out those poor kids. I would foster without a partner but I really doubt the state would let me do that. 

I'm going into teaching so I'll have lots of kids to take care of either way


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## TippyTappy (Oct 11, 2017)

No. I realize now it would be a rush if I were to have any cause I am already like 30. Plus I gotta be able to stand on my own first . T_T Yeah. But I think life can be happy without having children. I think a lot of people think it's what needs to be done (like the way of things) but it's not the only way to forge a life for yourself. Plus even from when I was younger I was scared of having a baby because it looks painful. Adoption all the way if I were to have a a person to raise!


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## Vivian Darkbloom (Aug 26, 2017)

Ew, no. I hate children. Even if I didn't, having to gain weight and all that would drive me crazy. I probably wouldn't even be able to, anyway.


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## alienbird (Apr 9, 2010)

No, for many reasons.


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## Eternal Solitude (Jun 11, 2017)

komorikun said:


> I've gotten away without having health insurance for 20 years.


Did you feel the sting when the Affordable Care Act passed through? The penalty for not having health insurance is what prompted me to get insurance.


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## SmartCar (Nov 27, 2011)

Maybe my mind will change ..but at this current moment ..


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## Rococo (Oct 28, 2017)

No. I would not be a good father. I can't really even get a grip on my own life, so how am I supposed to handle someone else's? Secondly, it just isn't something that I have a calling to do. I think I've spent enough time introspecting to have some idea as to what those things are and being a parent is not one of them.

Thirdly, I don't think I'd be remotely passable as the 'masculine' element in a partnership, part of the reason I don't date or have any kind of romantic relationships of any variety.


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## RichFubar007 (Oct 28, 2017)

I am 37 now and I want to have kids when I am around 44 or 45. Yeah, depression and anxiety does run in the family, but I am prepared to deal with those issues with them and help them through if they have the same feelings that I did when I was younger.


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## funnynihilist (Jul 29, 2014)

No way I'm bringing another human into this **** world!
I consider it an act of kindness!


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## 629753 (Apr 7, 2015)

No, I dont even want to be married, or havev a girlfriend


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## I cannot (Oct 14, 2017)

ChronicallyChronic said:


> We don't have a womb...


I mentioned this in another thread and it's relevant here too, men are actually more likely to want children than women are.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/men-wa...en-new-york-magazine-article-affirms-studies/


> The largest, most comprehensive national study of single Americans in 2011 surveyed over 5,000 participants and found 24 percent of single men without children under 18 said they wanted children, compared to 15 percent of women. A 2013 Associated Press-WE tv poll found more than 8 in 10 fathers surveyed said they always knew they wanted to have children, compared with about 7 in 10 mothers.


Though I am doubtful that *any *human has a biological desire to have children.


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## JH1983 (Nov 14, 2013)

No, the negatives far outweigh the positives to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChronicallyChronic (Oct 11, 2017)

I cannot said:


> ChronicallyChronic said:
> 
> 
> > We don't have a womb...
> ...


I don't care about those 24 percent.
I am one of the other 76 who never want to have chilsren for myriad of reasons.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

they cramp your style, make you tired, angry, worried and stressed, cover you in ****, piss and puke, ruin your hearing, take most of your money and time, make the simple task of going somewhere into a time consuming effort, annoy you and force you into playing "pretend" games, they take away your weekend by going to endless birthday parties in "fun factories", make years pass to quickly, and you are stuck with them for what seems like forever.

Who wouldn't want one of the litte ****ers?


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## Rococo (Oct 28, 2017)

I cannot said:


> I mentioned this in another thread and it's relevant here too, men are actually more likely to want children than women are.


That makes perfect sense to me, after all the female is the one who has to carry the child.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Rococo said:


> That makes perfect sense to me, after all the female is the one who has to carry the child.


yeah but we have to put up with the women whingeing about it - I would say its 50/50, maybe even 60/40


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## ChronicallyChronic (Oct 11, 2017)

SFC01 said:


> they cramp your style, make you tired, angry, worried and stressed, cover you in ****, piss and puke, ruin your hearing, take most of your money and time, make the simple task of going somewhere into a time consuming effort, annoy you and force you into playing "pretend" games, they take away your weekend by going to endless birthday parties in "fun factories", make years pass to quickly, and you are stuck with them for what seems like forever.
> 
> Who wouldn't want one of the litte ****ers?


So I am curious, why did you still opt to have them.knowing all this?


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

ChronicallyChronic said:


> So I am curious, why did you still opt to have them.knowing all this?


God knows mate !!

I didnt actually know all this until they came along, anyway the missus wouldn't shut up about having them, she wore me down.

The second one was due to too much beer on new years eve so if your birthday is in september, then you know you are a mistake :grin2:

Just kidding, the second wasn't planned at that time but we did want two - he is my little dude, love him to bits.


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## Sus y (Aug 30, 2017)

SFC01 said:


> God knows mate !!
> 
> I didnt actually know all this until they came along, anyway the missus wouldn't shut up about having them, she wore me down.
> 
> ...


LOL Funny fact its that almost half of my family and relatives are born in Sep, not me and I assume I'm the... oh well... **** happens.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

No. wouldn't be impossible though.



I cannot said:


> Though I am doubtful that *any *human has a biological desire to have children.


Wot?


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

Not only do I not plan on having them. I plan on taking every opportunity to beg other people not to have them. Like right now. Just don't do it. Even if you have the money it's a terrible thing to do in this world. And it's not just a terrible thing to do to your fellow earthlings in general. It's a terrible thing to do to your kids, who don't have a choice in the matter. They won't know this civilization sucks balls until they grow up and find out the hard way. It's up to you to prevent that.

(If you already have kids, this is not so much aimed at you. Obviously, what's done is done. But that shouldn't stop you from joining me in calling for others to be responsible and make a difference)


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## I cannot (Oct 14, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> No. wouldn't be impossible though.
> 
> Wot?


What makes you find that surprising?


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

I cannot said:


> What makes you find that surprising?


That genes aren't imaginary.


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## I cannot (Oct 14, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> That genes aren't imaginary.


Oh, has a gene for desire for children been identified? No, didn't think so.


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## feels (Jun 18, 2010)

i mean it would be dope but feel like earth is pretty rapidly heading down the ****ter... it'd be like hey kid welcome to hell. just don't think it's justifiable with everything that's going on.


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## RelinquishedHell (Apr 10, 2012)

Nope. Not responsible enough.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

I cannot said:


> Oh, has a gene for desire for children been identified? No, didn't think so.


Firstly, something not being identified doesn't mean it isn't there.
Secondly, have you heard about evolution? A desire for children is obviously genetic, since it ensures the survival of the genes
Thirdly, "a gene" for something isn't how genetics works. There will be multiple genes, often very many responsible for a behaviour or the part of the brain that manifests that behaviour.

And yes, w.r.t. the thirdly above,the brain is a biological entity, so obviously a desire for children is biological, because it comes from the brain. What on earth else could it be?

No, don't answer, you are going to say "psychological", well psychological is also biological unless you are a dualist. Everything about us is biological, because there isn't anything that isn't biological.



Witchblade said:


> Though I am doubtful that any human has a biological desire to have children.


All desires are biological since they all come from the brain which is biological. Unless you have any evidence the brain isn't a slab of physical meat that is.


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## I cannot (Oct 14, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> Secondly, have you heard about evolution? A desire for children is obviously genetic, since it ensures the survival of the genes


No, that's not how that works. Sexual reproduction developed long before we had the capacity to understand that sex results in children, before even consciousness had been developed. There is certainly a desire for sex, but there's no basis to say that there's a biological basis for desiring children. It's more likely to be a product of culture that makes people often want children, but regardless, you have no proof that there's a biological basis which is the only point I'm making - the burden of proof is on you if you think it's biological.

It's quite annoying when someone like you who knows nothing about the subject decides to argue in such an arrogant way. Pop-psychology and evopsych articles on buzzfeed aren't an education Bob.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

I cannot said:


> No, that's not how that works. Sexual reproduction developed long before we had the capacity to understand that sex results in children, before even consciousness had been developed. There is certainly a desire for sex, but there's no basis to say that there's a biological basis for desiring children. It's more likely to be a product of culture that makes people often want children, but regardless, you have no proof that there's a biological basis which is the only point I'm making - the burden of proof is on you if you think it's biological.


Everything about people has a biological basis witchy. How do you think the human machine operates, on steam or electricity? Humans are biological. We don't operate "in the cloud", we are tied to our biological roots, and its kinda unavoidable, sorry.

So to explain further as you don't get it. Lets say that someone "desires children". Through which organ in the body are those desires generated, and is that organ biological? Do those desires have a biological basis?


* *




It's the brain






I cannot said:


> It's quite annoying when someone like you who knows nothing about the subject decides to argue in such an arrogant way. Pop-psychology and evopsych articles on buzzfeed aren't an education Bob.


lol at evopsych, I knew it was you, welcome back. You gave the game away too early this time. Are you still arguing on behalf of the patriarchy by accident?


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## I cannot (Oct 14, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> Everything about people has a biological basis witchy. How do you think the human machine operates, on steam or electricity? Humans are biological. We don't operate "in the cloud", we are tied to our biological roots, and its kinda unavoidable, sorry.
> 
> So to explain further as you don't get it. Lets say that someone "desires children". Through which organ in the body are those desires generated, and is that organ biological? Do those desires have a biological basis?
> 
> ...


If your entire argument is just to conflate definitions so "everything is biology" (or rather, everything is physics) then you acknowledge that you have no argument against my initial statement, so you're wasting both of our times with this.


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## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Nope; I have the best kind of children in my life...not mine!  

(proud to be an uncle and um....my buddies kid kind of adopted me as an uncle lol)


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

I cannot said:


> If your entire argument is just to conflate definitions so "everything is biology" (or rather, everything is physics) then you acknowledge that you have no argument against my initial statement, so you're wasting both of our times with this.


How is that conflating definitions?

What exactly is your definition then? What do you mean by "a biological basis"? Can you clarify?

I took "a biological basis" to mean "a basis in biology". Are you saying that you meant something like "I don't think people are automatons and that they make decisions about whether to have children". Well obviously.

Also you should vary things like posting speed as well and your characters temperament. You post in an identical way the more upset you get (you reply quicker and quicker and then totally disengage with the subject when you can't handle it). For someone who has been doing this for such a long time you aren't very good at hiding who you are.


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## I cannot (Oct 14, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> How is that conflating definitions?
> 
> What exactly is your definition then? What do you mean by "a biological basis"? Can you clarify?
> 
> ...


It's pretty obvious what I mean because unlike you I'm not using words incorrectly. But if you insist on alternative words, there's no evidence that there's an *instinctual *desire for children, there's no evidence that there's an *innate *desire for children, there's no evidence that the desire for children is anything other than a product of culture. Also idgaf about your SAS drama.


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## Fruitcake (Jan 19, 2012)

No. Primarily because I think it's unethical to have children for various reasons. I also find the ideas of being pregnant and giving birth repulsive and horrifying. Looking after a baby would be awful. So many other reasons I can't be bothered going into.

I would like to look after kids, though. Maybe I would foster them in the future. I definitely want to work with them in some way, not as a career but temporarily. I think about it whenever I think about child poverty, the state of the education system, the frequency of child abuse, and the lack of resources and guidance for children who deal with those (and other) issues. Plus when I was little I flipping loved teaching the other kids stuff they didn't understand and I always befriended and helped younger children. It was so much fun and I miss that. I think I'm good at helping and getting along with children in some ways, too. I was too socially anxious around kids to work with them up until recently. I want to do volunteer work where you help kids in schools grow vege gardens and then help them make meals using the ingredients they grow! First I need to take a cooking class though or I will embarrass myself, but I have decent knowledge of gardening, bumblebees, and the benefits of vege gardens! Plus I know about companion planting which I think would appeal to some kids because it's like placing the plants next to their friends and making sure they all get along!


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## Anxiety Is In the Past (Aug 15, 2017)

I'd like to have two kids,but if I don't I'd consider consider donating sperm and have 20 kids that I don't need to support.


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## RickandMorty100years (Oct 6, 2017)

Fruitcake said:


> No. Primarily because I think it's unethical to have children for various reasons. I also find the ideas of being pregnant and giving birth repulsive and horrifying. Looking after a baby would be awful. So many other reasons I can't be bothered going into.
> 
> I would like to look after kids, though. Maybe I would foster them in the future. I definitely want to work with them in some way, not as a career but temporarily. I think about it whenever I think about child poverty, the state of the education system, the frequency of child abuse, and the lack of resources and guidance for children who deal with those (and other) issues. Plus when I was little I flipping loved teaching the other kids stuff they didn't understand and I always befriended and helped younger children. It was so much fun and I miss that. I think I'm good at helping and getting along with children in some ways, too. I was too socially anxious around kids to work with them up until recently. I want to do volunteer work where you help kids in schools grow vege gardens and then help them make meals using the ingredients they grow! First I need to take a cooking class though or I will embarrass myself, but I have decent knowledge of gardening, bumblebees, and the benefits of vege gardens! Plus I know about companion planting which I think would appeal to some kids because it's like placing the plants next to their friends and making sure they all get along!


Sounds like you would make a great teacher


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

@I cannot @splendidbob

An instinct for children would be redundant, because biology and reproduction are the same thing. You can't have biology without reproduction. The human organism and all of its instinctive behaviors ARE the reproductive "instinct" in human form, just like a spotted hyena is the reproductive "instinct" in spotted hyena form.

You won't find a gene for reproduction because there are no genes that aren't about reproduction. Humans, left to their own devices, reproduce automatically when the conditions are favorable for reproduction. "Conditions" in the case of humans, includes the mental environment shaped by reason and ethics.


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## I cannot (Oct 14, 2017)

truant said:


> @I cannot @splendidbob
> 
> An instinct for children would be redundant, because biology and reproduction are the same thing. You can't have biology without reproduction. The human organism and all of its instinctive behaviors ARE the reproductive "instinct" in human form, just like a spotted hyena is the reproductive "instinct" in spotted hyena form.
> 
> You won't find a gene for reproduction because there are no genes that aren't about reproduction. Humans, left to their own devices, reproduce automatically when the conditions are favorable for reproduction. "Conditions" in the case of humans, includes the mental environment shaped by reason and ethics.


I think you misunderstand the discussion, go back to the post he originally quoted of mine, I was responding to someone who claimed that women innately desire to have children because they have wombs, I pointed out that there's no basis to think any human innately desires to have children.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

I cannot said:


> I think you misunderstand the discussion, go back to the post he originally quoted of mine, I was responding to someone who claimed that women innately desire to have children because they have wombs, I pointed out that there's no basis to think any human innately desires to have children.


I didn't misunderstand the discussion. Having a womb is neither here nor there. Humans reproduce when the conditions are favorable, and they don't when they're not. There's no need to posit an instinct for reproduction, and there's no way that such an instinct could evolve. Evolution IS reproduction. An instinct for reproduction is a logical redundancy.

When people don't want to have children, it's because, in their estimate, the conditions do not favor having children. Reason evolved to help make those decisions. Having an instinct that overrides that would be counterproductive if reason evolved precisely to help make those decisions.

But since reproduction is the basis of all organic life, when conditions ARE favorable (including intellectual and moral environments) people will reproduce. This is usually accompanied by a conscious desire and intent to have children, but it doesn't have to be. We call that desire "instinctive" colloquially but it's not based on any one thing, like a gene, because _every_ gene evolved to further reproduction. It's based on the sum total of an individual's inner and outer conditions. It's what happens when nothing gets in the way. (Like fear, moral reservations, poor health, hostile climate, birth control, etc.) If you don't do anything to stop reproduction, people reproduce. An instinct to reproduce, as I said, is redundant.

Women who do not desire to have children really do not desire to have children, and their lack of desire is as much a consequence of evolution as the desire that other women have to have children. In both cases, it's based on a conscious evaluation of the environment, made possible by reason, which is an evolved faculty.

If those women later change their mind, it's because the conditions have become more favorable than unfavorable. There is no conflict here. No suppression of instincts or sudden upsurge of instinct. Both wanting and not wanting children are part of the same reproductive process, which in humans is moderated by conscious reason. Certain kinds of mental environments will be hostile for reproduction and others will favor reproduction, and that's where socialization comes in. Antinatalists, for example, are interested in creating a mental environment which is hostile to reproduction.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

splendidbob said:


> Also you should vary things like posting speed as well and your characters temperament. You post in an identical way the more upset you get (you reply quicker and quicker and then totally disengage with the subject when you can't handle it). For someone who has been doing this for such a long time you aren't very good at hiding who you are.


 :lol

You noticed that too, huh?


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

WillYouStopDave said:


> :lol
> 
> You noticed that too, huh?


. I always find it weird that people don't modulate things like posting speed, especially when engaged in heated debates. A rapid reply is one of the big tells for someone who is getting flustered.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> For someone who has been doing this for such a long time you aren't very good at hiding who you are.


It just amazes me how consistently she gets into the same old ****, despite starting as a new fake personality every time. I guess there's no point in even trying to abide by the rules when apparently the mods have no way to permaban her. I suppose it's better that someone who is that malicious and mentally ill spends their time posting on here instead of acting out her thoughts in the real world. Scares me to think what someone like her would do in a position of power (like a teacher for example).


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> . I always find it weird that people don't modulate things like posting speed, especially when engaged in heated debates. A rapid reply is one of the big tells for someone who is getting flustered.


Tbf I always post things quickly (then edit 75,000 times afterwards as additional thoughts occur.)

edit: lol doing it now. Anyway in regards to the debate I believe I looked into this before at one point (briefly) and from what I looked at there's mixed opinions in science on whether it's a 'drive' to want children in the way that sex is, or not. I'm not really invested in either side personally.

To quickly link to something that presents the argument:

https://theconversation.com/materna...volution-ensures-we-want-sex-not-babies-46622


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

There must be some sort of innate desire to mother/father children. So strong that non-human species are parented in place of children or in addition to children. Even most childless people have pets. People get a great amount of enjoyment from taking care of their pets. 

Then there are all these absentee fathers....


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## Xemnas (Sep 29, 2017)

well i would like to... but it would be like my parents one or two at most....
however for this i need to have several things first... a better job... my own home and well someone to have them with, unless i transmute some children....


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

MadnessVertigo said:


> It just amazes me how consistently she gets into the same old ****, despite starting as a new fake personality every time. I guess there's no point in even trying to abide by the rules when apparently the mods have no way to permaban her. I suppose it's better that someone who is that malicious and mentally ill spends their time posting on here instead of acting out her thoughts in the real world. Scares me to think what someone like her would do in a position of power (like a teacher for example).


It's just a mental health issue as far as I can tell, though I am not quite sure why this forum is the one she returns to. But yeh, it's the same stuff, though it is very easy to work out who she is. Mods can't really do anything though I suppose until it becomes agonisingly obvious.



Persephone The Dread said:


> Tbf I always post things quickly (then edit 75,000 times afterwards as additional thoughts occur.)
> 
> edit: lol doing it now. Anyway in regards to the debate I believe I looked into this before at one point (briefly) and from what I looked at there's mixed opinions in science on whether it's a 'drive' to want children in the way that sex is, or not. I'm not really invested in either side personally.
> 
> ...





komorikun said:


> There must be some sort of innate desire to mother/father children. So strong that non-human species are parented in place of children or in addition to children. Even most childless people have pets. People get a great amount of enjoyment from taking care of their pets.
> 
> Then there are all these absentee fathers....


Yeh, I agree here re pets etc. That a lot of people find babies in "cute" seems to be pretty strong evidence biology is pulling some strings, and I would imagine the idea of cuteness is programmed into us with the purpose of wanting to have offspring. (Objectively babies are grotesque fwiw).

To me as per what @truant was saying, it doesn't actually make the slightest bit of different though, I am not invested either way.

But Gwen is (and this is why she said it). She despises the idea of biology influencing behaviour, because as much as possible has to be socially constructed because then it is the patriarchy that was the cause. If there is a drive in women to have babies that isn't present in men (or is stronger in women), that means there are biological differences in behaviour in men and women and that threatens the basis for her extreme beliefs.


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## Kuse (Feb 15, 2017)

Testis will be gone soon.


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## I cannot (Oct 14, 2017)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Tbf I always post things quickly (then edit 75,000 times afterwards as additional thoughts occur.)
> 
> edit: lol doing it now. Anyway in regards to the debate I believe I looked into this before at one point (briefly) and from what I looked at there's mixed opinions in science on whether it's a 'drive' to want children in the way that sex is, or not. I'm not really invested in either side personally.
> 
> ...


This is going right over his head. He wasn't capable of understanding the argument so he switched to attacking my "posting speed".


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

I cannot said:


> This is going right over his head. He wasn't capable of understanding the argument so he switched to attacking my "posting speed".


I haven't even discussed that topic with you. We were talking about whether or not there was "a biological desire" for people wanting children, and then you changed the topic to whether people have an instinct for it. Those are very different topics, and the latter isn't very interesting.

Like I say above, I don't really care either way.


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## lostx00xsoul (Jan 12, 2012)

The thought of having someone carry on your bloodline is nice. But with the way things are today and how my bank account is set up, I don't think it would be wise. Plus I think I would always worry about my child or children and I worry enough as it is.


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

Well I read this today which I thought was interesting (and vaguely relevant): https://news.nationalgeographic.com...lay-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/



> Young females of the Kanyawara chimpanzee community in Kibale National Park, Uganda, use sticks as rudimentary dolls and care for them like the group's mother chimps tend to their real offspring. The behavior, which was very rarely observed in males, has been witnessed more than a hundred times over 14 years of study.
> 
> "The stick serves no immediate function, they just carry it-sometimes for a few minutes, other times for hours," study leader Richard Wrangham, a biological anthropologist at Harvard University, said via email.
> 
> "Carriers regularly take sticks into the nests they rest in during the day, something that isn't done with other objects. Individuals are [also] known to play with their sticks while in their nests."





> The research represents the first time wild animals of different sexes have been observed playing differently with objects, a practice well known among human children and previously observed in captive vervet and rhesus monkeys, Wrangham said.
> 
> For instance, young female monkeys in captivity have been known to favor dolls as playthings, while their male counterparts prefer "boy" toys like trucks.





> "It's definitely very useful that what we see not only in humans, and in primates raised by humans, is also in primates that are raised by primates," said Gilliam, who was not involved in the study.





> The doll-like stick play in the Kanyawara chimps has not yet been seen in any other populations, so it's possibly unique to the population. If so, the practice likely has cultural roots as well, Harvard's Wrangham noted.
> 
> "That is, all female chimpanzees are probably more oriented toward infants than are males, but only in a few places such as Kanyawara did the juvenile females get the bright idea to use sticks as 'dolls,'" he said.
> 
> ...


Idk haven't read much on it otherwise.

Also, neoteny triggers nurturing and protective behaviour.


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## I cannot (Oct 14, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> I haven't even discussed that topic with you. We were talking about whether or not there was "a biological desire" for people wanting children, and then you changed the topic to whether people have an instinct for it. Those are very different topics, and the latter isn't very interesting.
> 
> Like I say above, I don't really care either way.


That was always the topic of discussion, it's not my fault you conflated definitions and came in with your "everything is just physics" so nothing is worth discussing.



Rains said:


> Well I read this today which I thought was interesting (and vaguely relevant): https://news.nationalgeographic.com...lay-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/
> 
> Idk haven't read much on it otherwise.
> 
> Also, neoteny triggers nurturing and protective behaviour.


That is interesting, however it just raises questions without really getting to an answer. Like the authors pointed out, chimp populations have their own culture and they learn from seeing other how other chimps behave just like humans do. That's true for a lot of animal species but it's especially true for the more intelligent ones that are closer to humans, so the presence of a behavior in a non-human animal doesn't mean there's a biological basis for it. The fact that it's only present in this one chimp population does make it much more likely to be a cultural, learned behavior though and does support the idea that there's no instinctive desire to have children.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

I cannot said:


> That was always the topic of discussion, it's not my fault you conflated definitions and came in with your "everything is just physics" so nothing is worth discussing.


Well I can't mind read. If you say biological then I will assume you mean biological. And to suggest that dualism, and naive dualism isn't a topic worth discussing is insane given how many people automatically think in those terms. A lot of people think that "psychological" is somehow distinct from "biological" for example.

It was most definitely worth bringing up, since now you won't use the terms incorrectly.

You are welcome.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

It looks like people with social anxiety might become less common in the future.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

probably offline said:


> It looks like people with social anxiety might become less common in the future.


I read that as a threat (got something planned PO?)


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## naes (Nov 1, 2013)

Idk maybe someday. Who knows? I think I would want to adopt though because so many kids don't have homes as is.


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## caixoxo (Oct 4, 2017)

As little as a year ago I would have said yes. Now going into my late mid-twenties(I'm 25) I can't see it happening for me anymore and so I voted no. Like Virgo explained before me, family. Successful people come from successful families and that's not me. Not only do we struggle financially but probably in every way possible. Communication is basically impossible for us. All our self-esteems are in the toilet and they continue to tear each other(and me) down every day. Can you believe that? It's even hard for me to believe. The only thing we have going for us really is that my mom is a good cook but only when she wants to be... and she's not the most health-conscious and doesn't even try to be due to poor confidence probably....sigh.

:get


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

splendidbob said:


> I read that as a threat (got something planned PO?)


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## Ominous Indeed (Sep 6, 2015)

Vivian Darkbloom said:


> Ew, no. I hate children. Even if I didn't, having to gain weight and all that would drive me crazy. I probably wouldn't even be able to, anyway.


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## Pyro wolf (Oct 2, 2017)

My parents aren't the best role models for parents. And thats putting it nicely. I doubt I would ever find a significant other and I'm also very squeamish (I can't deal with blood or anything- my cousin faints at the sigt of blood so it isn't that bad) so I don't think I could deal with being pregnant. I would probably adopt, but even then I would be afraid that I wouldd mess them up. Who would want a diabetic single non-binary parent with slight anger issues and anxiety?


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## sas62759 (Feb 13, 2015)

refresh


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## Chris S W (Mar 5, 2017)

No, I think any chance of that happening has gone. I could envision it once upon a time (about 5 years ago).


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## caelle (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't know. 

I don't think I'll ever get that opportunity. Either I'm never going to find the right guy who I love so much that it makes me want to have kids, or when I do find that guy, I might be all out of eggs.


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## SD92 (Nov 9, 2013)

I wouldn't want them now but who knows when I'm 30+. It really depends on if I'm in a relationship or not and what the other person wants.


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## hunterjumper11 (Nov 8, 2017)

Yes, I want 1-2. No more than that though. (Ideally, they would both be boys. I do notttt think I'd be able to handle girls but that's just me.)
My fiancé and I want to have our first in about two years, when I'll be 26. (We're getting married (eloping) early 2018.) I've always wanted to have my kids young because it's usually easier on your body.


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## Johnny Mac (Oct 31, 2017)

How can people even afford to have kids these days?


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## ShiftyShifty (Feb 26, 2017)

It's funny to be in the minority who clicked Yes. Kids get a bad rap on the Internet. I think people should keep an open mind about this topic. If you don't want to have children and either stay single or have a partner who's in agreement on this, that's cool.

Side question. Would you marry or cohabitate with a single parent thus causing you to have stepchildren?



Johnny Mac said:


> How can people even afford to have kids these days?


You can afford anything, but you might end up with a poverty lifestyle in the process. I was raised in a middle-class household but all my ancestors before that were way poorer than most people are now. The difference is the economics of living on a farm vs. living in a city. Back then moms didn't have jobs so they had time to sew clothes, cook, and watch their children, which seriously minimizes the costs of having kids. It may be more interesting for women to work outside the home, but the second salary is thrown away when you have to buy stuff you lack the time to make, and then pay others to watch the kids.


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## ChronicallyChronic (Oct 11, 2017)

ShiftyShifty said:


> It's funny to be in the minority who clicked Yes. Kids get a bad rap on the Internet. I think people should keep an open mind about this topic. If you don't want to have children and either stay single or have a partner who's in agreement on this, that's cool.
> 
> Side question. Would you marry or cohabitate with a single parent thus causing you to have stepchildren?
> 
> ...


No, I don't even want a stepchild, that's even worse than having your own child in my opinion.
I want no children in my life, period.
I want it to be just me and a cute gf/wife.


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## Johnny Mac (Oct 31, 2017)

Yeah who wants to raise someone else's kid? :wtf


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## IcedOver (Feb 26, 2007)

You should add a "Hell No!" option. I'd rather commit suicide than father a child.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

World has 6 billion too many people already.


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## discoveryother (Sep 18, 2016)

ShiftyShifty said:


> Side question. Would you marry or cohabitate with a single parent thus causing you to have stepchildren?


yeah that would be an option for me.


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## AvoidantGuy (Oct 1, 2017)

Short answer is idk. Long answer is idk.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

No way.


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## Mlt18 (Jun 29, 2016)

Never. I prefer interacting with kids over adults, but I don't want to have to raise them and live with them everyday.

Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk


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## ChronicallyChronic (Oct 11, 2017)

Freiheit91 said:


> Never. I prefer interacting with kids over adults, but I don't want to have to raise them and live with them everyday.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk


I even hate interacting with them lol , they are so annoying.


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## Jason Aibot (Aug 25, 2017)

At some point, I would like to have a kid.

The big kick is, if I do end up marrying another man, it would be a bit arduous to try and have biological children, and I do really want one of my own if I get married. If I married a woman, then the process is a lot easier. xD

But I'm also of the view we have 7.3 billion people on this planet, and that my child would use the resources of nearly 1,000 average Africans by the time (s)he's ten. Additionally, I'm not a fan of young children. Yes babies are cute, but they're also walking snot rags. Yes, toddlers are funny, but they also think everything is the most interesting and bestest and I can't deal with that.

To be honest, I'll probably have a kid at some point. I know that the world's overcrowded and I don't enjoy young kids, but the developed world needs more babies.


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## lexx (Dec 11, 2013)

I kind of have mixed feelings about it because I know my life will be much different say 10 years from now, but I still don't foresee it happening. Like, I want to experience pregnancy and childbirth but I feel it would be unfair and selfish of me to pass down my horrible genes. Also I have a really bad hospital phobia, especially ob/gyn. So it's a bummer. It's more likely I'd adopt because I didn't create 'em and I can just be like "Well we're both stuck here by fault of someone else so might as well make the most of it."


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

hell to the no.


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## slyfox (Nov 18, 2007)

Maybe if I was financially stable enough to the point that children wouldn't be a stress that way(doubt I'll ever be in that financial situation though). Not even sure then because kids cause a lot of stress and take up tons of your time.


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## Squirrelevant (Jul 27, 2008)

I think I can understand the appeal of having children. Based on the way things have been going for me, though, I don't think that will ever be an option.


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## 917554 (Nov 21, 2017)

I think there's too much to consider so I'm on the fence about it. My body would have to take care of this growing foetus which means physical and hormonal changes to accommodate. I'm already self conscious about the way I look so I think it would be not good for me especially with SA. The thought of opening my legs for hospital staff to see and the pain give me nightmares. I can't interact with adults and children. Experience with kids in the neighbourhood also made me hate kids a bit. Babies are okay but once they can walk no thanks. You will never know how your child will turn out even if you think you brought them up well. It's a lottery. I'm not going to take the gamble. If they're disable it's even worse. I wouldn't want them to burden me or them self. I wouldn't want them to realise how cruel this world really is. People are not nice not even to the able bodied. Planning and money. A lot to think about.


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## Fomorian (Nov 24, 2017)

Even if a woman would have kids with me (never happen) I don't have the skills to raise a child.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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