# Creep-Shaming



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

I can probably count the amount of times I've used the word "creeper" in this forum (three or five, give or take), and those times I got about a dozen responses from male users saying things like, "augh, I hate that word" or "why is it that women always use that word?"

Well, turns out the MRA (Men's Rights Activists) are sick of that word, too. They call it "creep-shaming." One user in Reddit says, "the ability to label men as 'creepy' is just one privilege that women enjoy, and a constant source of fear of ostracizing that all men must fear in our society." Creep is "the worst casual insult that can be tossed at a guy" writes Jeremy Paul Gordon at the Hairpin. The users insist that the word is used particularly by women to put men down.

I read this on Jezebel.com and the writer made this really interesting comment about how it's the only word that doesn't have any mysogynistic roots.



> Jeremy Paul Gordon specifically compared the term to "*****," "d*uchebag," and "*sshole." The first two words, when directed at a man, insult him by comparing him either to a vagina or a device used to clean one; their pejorative power lies in the way they feminize the guy who gets called one of these names. "*******," as the historian Rictor Norton has suggested, is rooted in a derogatory term for men who allowed themselves to be anally f*cked. A man who gets penetrated behaves like a woman and is labeled as feminine - a fate that we raise small American boys to fear more than almost anything else. (This is why, of course, words like "b*tch" or "p*ssy" when used by one man to another, are so much more likelier to lead to blows than "d*ck" or "pr*ck." Men are unlikely to be enraged by references to their own anatomy, only to a woman's.)


Apparently, "creep" is more hurtful because it describes how the woman feels around said man. Conversely, the listed insults simply describe their actions, or how they appear in the moment.

The writer at Jezebel ends his article with this remark, though:


> *This, of course, is why some guys hate the word so much; it forces men to reflect carefully about how they make women feel. *No wonder then that so many guys are campaigning against "creep-shaming." *After all, the sooner the term becomes socially unacceptable, the sooner men can get back to not having to think about women's boundaries*.


Let's not jump to generalizations about men or women and have a, um, civil argument (because, let's face it, it'll get to that). Although what I'd really like is your POV on how the word makes you feel (guys) and who you usually describe with this word (gals).

http://jezebel.com/5903883/why-guys-really-hate-being-called-creepy

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/BigotryShowcase/comments/lnb70/_/c2u3310


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## huh (Mar 19, 2007)

MRA? lol...


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

Instead of acknowledging that the word is actually hurtful, the article attempts to flip the situation on its head to fit the narrative of "men = oppressors, women = victims" and portrays men who complain about it as whiny babies who are bitter about not being allowed to rape women or something. The fact is, the word IS legitimately hurtful and most of the time is used for purely malicious purposes or for overly judgemental reasons. I doubt there is any guy on this forum who hasn't had this word used against them in situations where it was totally unwarranted. The fact that some guys are actually disrespectful to women doesn't mean that the rest of the guys who complain about this word are too.


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## Einangra (Jul 28, 2010)

It is a very hurtful word as it pretty much denounces everything about you as a man and as a person. It's a quick and simply way for a woman to proclaim that you have failed to be impressive, appealing or even satisfactory in any way you hoped to be.

And there's no good comeback.


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## shadowmask (Jun 22, 2009)

I think the problem is that women use the term to describe men who happen to make them uncomfortable, not solely those who _intend_ to make them uncomfortable. Many men who get labeled a "creep" are often unaware of exactly what they've done to deserve the insult. It's an attack on one's personality or awkward social skills or perhaps their looks; things that can't be helped or aren't known how to help. It's taken as an insult towards deficiencies, not actions.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> Instead of acknowledging that the word is actually hurtful, the article attempts to flip the situation on its head to fit the narrative of "men = oppressors, women = victims" and portrays men who complain about it as whiny babies who are bitter about not being allowed to rape women or something. The fact is, the word IS legitimately hurtful and most of the time is used for purely malicious purposes or for overly judgemental reasons. I doubt there is any guy on this forum who hasn't had this word used against them in situations where it was totally unwarranted. The fact that some guys are actually disrespectful to women doesn't mean that the rest of the guys who complain about this word are too.


All insults hurt. The writer is pointing to something else: the ridiculousness of the term "creep-shaming."

The latter part of your post, if not all of it, is completely irrelevant to the article.


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## Buerhle (Mar 6, 2006)

Ape in space said:


> Instead of acknowledging that the word is actually hurtful, the article attempts to flip the situation on its head to fit the narrative of "men = oppressors, women = victims" and portrays men who complain about it as whiny babies who are bitter about not being allowed to rape women or something. The fact is, the word IS legitimately hurtful and most of the time is used for purely malicious purposes or for overly judgemental reasons. I doubt there is any guy on this forum who hasn't had this word used against them in situations where it was totally unwarranted. The fact that some guys are actually disrespectful to women doesn't mean that the rest of the guys who complain about this word are too.


^ this.


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## Buerhle (Mar 6, 2006)

Imo The jezebel.com article is inaccurate.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Einangra said:


> It is a very hurtful word as it pretty much denounces everything about you as a man and as a person. It's a quick and simply way for a woman to proclaim that you have failed to be impressive, appealing or even satisfactory in any way you hoped to be.
> 
> And there's no good comeback.


I don't think that's it. If it's how she feel around him (i.e. it makes her feel uncomfortable), what does that have to do about the guy not being able to impress her?



shadowmask said:


> I think the problem is that women use the term to describe men who happen to make them uncomfortable, not solely those who _intend_ to make them uncomfortable. Many men who get labeled a "creep" are often unaware of exactly what they've done to deserve the insult. It's an attack on one's personality or awkward social skills or perhaps their looks; things that can't be helped or aren't known how to help. It's taken as an insult towards deficiencies, not actions.


Well, how would that work when I use the term online? One of the times that pops up is when I simply wrote "creeper" after a commenter said he wanted to go to a high school to look at "fresh-faced 18 year-olds." I'm pretty certain that can be "helped" and that it's "known" to the receiver.

I think most SAS guys take it personally because they believe the word is commonly used to describe guys that are quiet...


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Whir said:


> Imo The jezebel.com article is inaccurate.


That site's inaccurate about a lot of stuff. :stu


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## cold fission cure (Aug 31, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> MRA (Men's Rights Activists)


they need to find a different abbreviation. really confusing when i see that whether it's talking about men's rights or magnetic resonance angiography


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

cold fission cure said:


> they need to find a different abbreviation. really confusing when i see that whether it's talking about men's rights or magnetic resonance angiography


or Magnanimous (or any state beginning with M) Rifle Association.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Whir said:


> Imo The jezebel.com article is inaccurate.


How so? Because you said so?



millenniumman75 said:


> That site's inaccurate about a lot of stuff. :stu


Let's share.



cold fission cure said:


> they need to find a different abbreviation. really confusing when i see that whether it's talking about men's rights or magnetic resonance angiography


Word. Let's contact them.


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## kennyc (Nov 15, 2011)

I do feel sorry for guys who get labelled "creepy". They are usually just unattractive and geeky guys who want to approach women like any other guy would. I doubt any women would label johnny depp as creepy if he was hitting on them even though he is a bit awkward and shy aswell.


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## Farideh (Nov 13, 2011)

You should see the way how men behave whenever they see someone attractive. I'm not saying I'm attractive because I know I'm not anything special, but I have had random men follow me around a store, invade my personal space without my permission, or can't keep their eyes off of me even though I caught them staring at me. Now those men have every right ti be labeled as creeps because really they do act like creeps around women. Not all of them but a lot of them do. It all depends on the way how a male behaves around a female. Giving a smile, striking up a friendly conversation, or giving a nice compliment is probably not creepy. But stalking a woman or staring at her like a vulture is another thing. Creepy.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Paloma M said:


> You should see the way how men behave whenever they see someone attractive. I'm not saying I'm attractive because I know I'm not anything special, but I have had random men follow me around a store or can't keep their eyes off of me even though I caught them staring at me. Now those men have every right ti be labeled as creeps because really they do act like creeps around women. Not all of them but a lot of them do. It all depends on the way how a male behaves around a female. Giving a smile, striking up a friendly conversation, or giving a nice compliment is probably not creepy. But stalking a woman or staring at her like a vulture is another thing. Creepy.


Exactly, but some guys think it's automatically because the guy is quiet.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

Hmm, a bit of a side issue but I think we should take most of the stuff on jezebel.com with a pinch of salt - a number of articles are written in such a way that they are just needlessly inflammatory to try and rile up the predominantly feminist readership. (trolling their own users I guess ?)

A good recent example of this here:
http://jezebel.com/5901998/german-woman-tries-to-hold-sexhausted-man-prisoner-in-her-apartment

A 'charming' piece belittling a man who was forced to have sex with a woman against his will (e.g. rape) Thankfully though on this occasion the regular commenters saw through the charade and quite rightly pointed out that any form of sexual abuse is wrong no matter what the gender is of the victim (hats off to them!)


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## cold fission cure (Aug 31, 2010)

Paloma M said:


> You should see the way how men behave whenever they see someone attractive. I'm not saying I'm attractive because I know I'm not anything special, but I have had random men follow me around a store or can't keep their eyes off of me even though I caught them staring at me. Now those men have every right ti be labeled as creeps because really they do act like creeps around women. Not all of them but a lot of them do. It all depends on the way how a male behaves around a female. Giving a smile, striking up a friendly conversation, or giving a nice compliment is probably not creepy. But stalking a woman or staring at her like a vulture is another thing. Creepy.


takes time to approach a girl sometimes. should i use the "do you floss before or after brushing" question or the "jealous girlfriend" opener? do i approach from a 45 degree or 30 degree angle? and how quickly? do i wear the feather boa or ditch it for the furry top hat? maybe you changed your breathing pattern and he has to calibrate his approach. maybe your aura shifted color at the last second and ruined his approach and he's hanging back, re-grouping, modifying, calibrating, calibrating, always calibrating (he wishes so bad he had a user's manual). maybe he needs to post for advice on a pick-up forum and he's f5'ing waiting for a response. don't judge.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Paper Samurai said:


> Hmm, a bit of a side issue but I think we should take most of the stuff on jezebel.com with a pinch of salt - a number of articles are written in such a way that they are just needlessly inflammatory to try and rile up the predominantly feminist readership. (trolling their own users I guess ?)
> 
> A good recent example of this here:
> http://jezebel.com/5901998/german-woman-tries-to-hold-sexhausted-man-prisoner-in-her-apartment
> ...


That was his (Doug Barry is mainly a writer at Gawker) opinion on an article. He reported the issue accurately, but also made his idiotic opinion open. The opinion is what one should take with a grain of salt.

I never said take Hugo Schwyzer's opinion as fact. I wanted posters to think about it.

I don't see how the fact that it's a feminist blog makes a difference either if what we're looking at is the facts (the history of the terminonolgies and the reporting of MRA). Not to mention Hugo Schwyzer is the founder of Good Men's Project, so the opinion is not completely bias.


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## squidlette (Jan 9, 2012)

cold fission cure said:


> takes time to approach a girl sometimes. should i use the "do you floss before or after brushing" question or the "jealous girlfriend" opener? do i approach from a 45 degree or 30 degree angle? and how quickly? do i wear the feather boa or ditch it for the furry top hat? maybe you changed your breathing pattern and he has to calibrate his approach. maybe your aura shifted color at the last second and ruined his approach and he's hanging back, re-grouping, modifying, calibrating, calibrating, always calibrating (he wishes so bad he had a user's manual). maybe he needs to post for advice on a pick-up forum and he's f5'ing waiting for a response. don't judge.


Yeah, are you talking about flirting here or stalking? It really could go either way.


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## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

there's plenty of legitimately creepy guys but women do tend to throw the word around for no reason (mainly when talking about any guy they're not attracted to)


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## sansd (Mar 22, 2006)

AllToAll said:


> Although what I'd really like is your POV on how the word makes you feel (guys) and who you usually describe with this word (gals).


I don't use it much, but I think the word is used appropriately when describing someone who displays disturbing ideas or behavior that make you feel unsafe or concerned for the safety of others. It's creepy if someone is more interested in what they want than in whether they're making someone else feel unsafe--guys who stare, won't take no for an answer, invade personal space, etc.


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

GD8 said:


> there's plenty of legitimately creepy guys but women do tend to throw the word around for no reason (mainly when talking about any guy they're not attracted to)


Truth.


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## foe (Oct 10, 2010)

GD8 said:


> there's plenty of legitimately creepy guys but women do tend to throw the word around for no reason (mainly when talking about any guy they're not attracted to)


Yeah, only the ugly guys are creepy.

Thank goodness I'm a beautiful gorgeous guy so I usually just get labeled as "weird."


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## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

I do think that some women use the word inapropriately(sp?),but i also think that alot of guys are too sensitive of the word. I also doubt that men who are truly creepy get bothered by being called so.


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## meeps (Dec 5, 2011)

foe said:


> Yeah, only the ugly guys are creepy.


Nah, I have seen good looking guys acting like creeps.


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## elvin jones (Dec 12, 2011)

Creep-shaming you say...










My body, my rules. Respect.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

carambola said:


> I don't use it much, but I think the word is used appropriately when describing someone who displays disturbing ideas or behavior that make you feel unsafe or concerned for the safety of others. It's creepy if someone is more interested in what they want than in whether they're making someone else feel unsafe--guys who stare, won't take no for an answer, invade personal space, etc.


Seems sensible enough to me.



elvin jones said:


> Creep-shaming you say...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:lol

That's pretty much it. Making a cause out of nothing/comparing it to something actually problematic.


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## elvin jones (Dec 12, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> That's pretty much it. Making a cause out of nothing/comparing it to something actually problematic.


Actually I meant it in a different manner. Like how **** walks try to reclaim the word ****. Maybe creepy guys should reclaim the word creepy and wear it with pride. I dunno how successful it would be though. :|


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Unlike "a******" or "dou******" or "b****" or "p****" or whatever else you can come with to call a guy, the term "creep" has some very negative, *anti-social* connotations: Whereas an "as*****" is just a jerk, a "creep" is a would-be rapist or a child molester or some other kind of sexual deviant. It's implying that he's not only a _criminal_, but a _sexual offender_.

THAT is what sets "creep" apart from the others, why guys are so sensitive towards it, and why the term shouldn't be thrown around so freely. It's nothing to do with a word's misogynistic origins or that it "makes a guy think about how he makes women feel."

Keeping that in mind, "creep" gets misused quite a bit in cases where the guy sure as all f*** doesn't deserve the label.

Maybe a girl is very sensitive to being cold-approached (she hates it). Therefore, any guy who approaches her is rather likely to set off her creep vibe. This doesn't mean he's a creep, and he shouldn't be automatically judged as such just because of her own sensitivities/insecurities.

Maybe she's not attracted to the guy (she's into big burly extroverts and the guy in question is a smaller, sheepish type) and that's why he sets off the creep vibe. This doesn't mean he's a creep.

Maybe the guy has crippling social anxiety or depression and his symptoms are setting off people's creep vibes. This doesn't mean he's a creep.

If someone's staring at you and following you around in a store, THERE'S someone who's a creep.

If someone leers at you and catcalls you every time you're near him, THERE'S someone who's a creep.

If someone keeps pursuing you and hovering over you like a buzzard, after you've already rejected him, THERE'S someone who's a creep.

Now, I wouldn't personally care about being called a creep myself. I would just figure the girl to be a f***ing idiot and give her a permanent spot on my s***list for being so _stupid_. No matter to me. However, I know a lot of guys DO care about it and take it to heart, and it pisses me off when I see them have to deal with being branded a creep (or let's call it what it is, a *sexual offender*) over nothing.

So, no one is saying you can't use the word. We're just saying you should show a little bit of restraint and know that the so-called 'creep vibe' you get from a guy will, in some situations, be due to your own sensitivities rather than the fact that the guy's actually a threat.


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## kanra (Nov 27, 2011)

I agree that the word "creep" is overused by women. Also like GD8 said, they use it to refer to guys they're not attracted to, especially if they have an interest in her. It's pretty stupid in my opinion.

But some guys do deserve to be labeled creeps by women, especially if they're older than her (say 15 or more years). Pedophilia is creepy in general. I've also known a guy my age that I was initially interested in because he was so attractive and shy, but he ended up staring at me with his mouth gaping open and messing around with his junk, and that creeped me out _completely_. There was another moment when a guy took out his phone and took a flash-picture of me during class, leering at me all the while. I thought he was a creep. :stu

I don't think of guys as creeps until they prove it.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

This how I know I'm a creep.


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## THEuTASTEsOFeINKd (Apr 10, 2010)

Is Jezebel the female equivalent of porn?

_Celebrity, Sex, Fashion for Women_

In all honesty, I hate the word. It's grossly over used. I hate the way I look when I smile so I feel like if I smile I am instantly labeled a creeper.


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## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

I have no negative inclination toward the word "creep."

It was a hit in 1993(?) with Radiohead, Stone Temple Pilots, and TLC.

Also, "the Creeper" is a cool comic character. "Beware the Creeper."

That said, I've never really been called a creep.


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## Meli24R (Dec 9, 2008)

I agree that women throw around the word and immaturely apply it to every man who approaches them (that they're not attracted to) 
Some people do deserve the label though. Last summer I was at a resort and a man kept following me around. When my friend and I were in the pool, he kept getting really close to us. He would stare at me intensely with his mouth gaping open while I wasn't looking directly at him(apparently unaware that people have side vision) I just got fed up with it and called him a creep to my friend (and made it audible to him) He left after that. I don't understand how anyone could think it's appropriate or okay to act like this. Stalkerish behavior is creepy.


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## lkkxm (Apr 11, 2012)

I *feel* like a creep sometimes but I've never been called one. To my face at least . That being said, I think men have a lot of names for women that are just "thrown around" as you say. Why can't women have a couple?


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## GuyMontag (Dec 12, 2010)

I've never been called a creep to my face, but I'm sure people have thought it at some point.


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## BobbyByThePound (Apr 4, 2012)

I think if you get called a creep, you're generally doing something wrong. Maybe some girls use the word to describe non-creepy men but I haven't experienced that. Most of the times I've heard a guy get described as creepy, he deserved it.


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## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

i wish i was special.....but im creep :|


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## avoidobot3000 (Aug 22, 2010)

Creep is an insult just like any other: one can use it to be hurtful and judgemental, or playfully. The intention is more important than what word is used.

Kinda off topic: I can't take writers very seriously when they use needless quotations marks. It makes them look arrogant.


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## fingertips (Jan 11, 2009)

i haven't heard the word used that often, but i would have thought it was used to describe people who don't respect personal boundaries :stu


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## Winds (Apr 17, 2011)

*Every time I here the word creep, I think of this song*


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

Just Lurking said:


> Unlike "a******" or "dou******" or "b****" or "p****" or whatever else you can come with to call a guy, the term "creep" has some very negative, *anti-social* connotations: Whereas an "as*****" is just a jerk, a "creep" is a would-be rapist or a child molester or some other kind of sexual deviant. It's implying that he's not only a _criminal_, but a _sexual offender_.
> 
> THAT is what sets "creep" apart from the others, why guys are so sensitive towards it, and why the term shouldn't be thrown around so freely. It's nothing to do with a word's misogynistic origins or that it "makes a guy think about how he makes women feel."
> 
> ...


Best post I've seen on SAS in a while.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Would it be creepy to look for a classmate's facebook or google their name? Not to add them but just to have a look.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Just Lurking said:


> Unlike "a******" or "dou******" or "b****" or "p****" or whatever else you can come with to call a guy, the term "creep" has some very negative, *anti-social* connotations: Whereas an "as*****" is just a jerk, a "creep" is a would-be rapist or a child molester or some other kind of sexual deviant. It's implying that he's not only a _criminal_, but a _sexual offender_.


The word can be used in a myriad of words. You're just choosing the ones you take personal.

[QUOTE}THAT is what sets "creep" apart from the others, why guys are so sensitive towards it, and why the term shouldn't be thrown around so freely. It's nothing to do with a word's misogynistic origins or that it "makes a guy think about how he makes women feel."[/QUOTE]
Oh, that's why _you_ are sensitive about it. What was that thing you wrote on the rape thread? Ah, right, people shouldn't get into arguments when they're emotionally attached to the topic. You should take your own advice.



> Keeping that in mind, "creep" gets misused quite a bit in cases where the guy sure as all f*** doesn't deserve the label.


I don't see how that's any different from other insults. Like the writer mentioned, a**hole was originally referred to as a man who had anal sex, but now people just use as a regular insult.



> Maybe a girl is very sensitive to being cold-approached (she hates it). Therefore, any guy who approaches her is rather likely to set off her creep vibe. This doesn't mean he's a creep, and he shouldn't be automatically judged as such just because of her own sensitivities/insecurities.


Everyone makes judgments. This word is no different.



> Maybe she's not attracted to the guy (she's into big burly extroverts and the guy in question is a smaller, sheepish type) and that's why he sets off the creep vibe. This doesn't mean he's a creep.


No. Not at all.



> Maybe the guy has crippling social anxiety or depression and his symptoms are setting off people's creep vibes. This doesn't mean he's a creep.


Ahh, okay. You're talking about yourself. I see. 



> If someone's staring at you and following you around in a store, THERE'S someone who's a creep.


Well, if he keeps staring and following me around...yes! Christ, of course tha feels weird.



> If someone leers at you and catcalls you every time you're near him, THERE'S someone who's a creep.
> 
> If someone keeps pursuing you and hovering over you like a buzzard, after you've already rejected him, THERE'S someone who's a creep.


Yes, yes.



> Now, I wouldn't personally care about being called a creep myself. I would just figure the girl to be a f***ing idiot and give her a permanent spot on my s***list for being so _stupid_. No matter to me. However, I know a lot of guys DO care about it and take it to heart, and it pisses me off when I see them have to deal with being branded a creep (or let's call it what it is, a *sexual offender*) over nothing.


Nah, of course you don't. :lol



> So, no one is saying you can't use the word. We're just saying you should show a little bit of restraint and know that the so-called 'creep vibe' you get from a guy will, in some situations, be due to your own sensitivities rather than the fact that the guy's actually a threat.


It's another word. The fact that some guys take that word so personally as opposed to a**hole or douche bag deserves some self-reflection on their part.



komorikun said:


> Would it be creepy to look for a classmate's facebook or google their name? Not to add them but just to have a look.


Yes, yes it is. And I'm a creep for it.



avoidobot3000 said:


> Creep is an insult just like any other: one can use it to be hurtful and judgemental, or playfully. The intention is more important than what word is used.


Word.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

AllToAll said:


> The word can be used in a myriad of words. You're just choosing the ones you take personal.


No, I think I've already stated the difference between "creep" and the other terms. It's pretty objective.



AllToAll said:


> Oh, that's why _you_ are sensitive about it. What was that thing you wrote on the rape thread? Ah, right, people shouldn't get into arguments when they're emotionally attached to the topic. You should take your own advice.


I have no idea what post you're talking about. Either way, I'm not "emotionally attached to the topic" -- I'm not sure where you get this from. I just came across this topic and posted in it like any other.



AllToAll said:


> I don't see how that's any different from other insults. Like the writer mentioned, a**hole was originally referred to as a man who had anal sex, but now people just use as a regular insult.


Who cares about the origins of the term? What matters is how it's used and understood today.



AllToAll said:


> Everyone makes judgments.


I'll say!



AllToAll said:


> No. Not at all.


In _your_ case, OK, but are you speaking for all girls now?



AllToAll said:


> Ahh, okay. You're talking about yourself. I see.


More judgments!

I've never been called a creep in my life or so much as gotten the "oh, he's a creep" sort of vibe from a girl. I'm quite confident in my ability to come off as a non-creep 



AllToAll said:


> Nah, of course you don't. :lol


That's right. I don't take to heart what a dimwitted, judgmental person says about me.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Just Lurking said:


> No, I think I've already stated the difference between "creep" and the other terms. It's pretty objective.


Oh, well then if you say so it must be true then. Okidokes. :lol



> I have no idea what post you're talking about. Either way, I'm not "emotionally attached to the topic" -- I'm not sure where you get this from. I just came across this topic and posted in it like any other.


C'mon. Let's hug it out.



> Who cares about the origins of the term? What matters is how it's used and understood today.


Missing the point, and I don't care anymore to argue.



> I'll say!


Hey, we agree on someone everyone else in the world agrees on. Yay.



> In _your_ case, OK, but are you speaking for all girls now?


In the original quote, I answered this: "This doesn't mean he's a creep." So I don't know what you mean.



> More judgments!


Hey, I'm just trying to help you out come out, bud.



> I've never been called a creep in my life or so much as gotten the "oh, he's a creep" sort of vibe from a girl.


Well if the random person over the internet says so...



> That's right. I don't take to heart what an dimwitted, judgmental person says about me.


Good for you, hun!

In conclusion, creep is just another insult some guys choose to take personally.


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## sootnstars (Nov 11, 2003)

If I feel that someone is creepy, there's usually not too much I can do about it. It's a feeling, so it doesn't even necessarily mean it's rational.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Wow, "*AllToAll*", and you're telling me that *I'm* emotionally invested in this topic... Hmmmm.........

And no, the "dimwitted" comment wasn't directed at you, but some of your judgmental remarks and personal insinuations here (which are rather not appreciated, by the way) are beginning to make me think you fit the bill.

Anyway, I don't care to go on any further as I've already said my peace, so unless there's something else...


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## To22 (Apr 6, 2012)

I hate it when I get called a creep even jokingly. I hate it because I think that most people don't know what a creep actually is. When I think of a creep, I think of a guy who fantasizes about girls too much, stalks them, smells their shoe, stares at them all day, has pictures and archives throughout a girls entire life, is awkward, A PERVERT etc 

A creep as defined be google search is someone who's just weird or unconventional. As defined by the urban dictionary a creep is an undesirable man. I don't mind being called unconventional because I purposely try to be sometimes but undesirable isn't true.

So basically it's frustrating because of what I think they mean by calling me a creep. I don't stalk any person period, I'm not undesirable, I've never crossed a girls boundaries and I'm not a perv. I'm not some little gremlin who sits on the computer saying "Precious my precioussss! how are you my precious! do you want some tea!!! PRECIOUS!! PRECIOUSSS!" I'd much prefer if they were more specific because that's what I think they mean by calling me a creep. It's never timely. And only my friends say it but I still don't like it. Now that I think about it, I feel that a lot of girls are openly creepy lol..like the girls who are obsessed with celebrities..eww creepy get a life lol Hugh Jackman will never want you geez


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## To22 (Apr 6, 2012)

komorikun said:


> Would it be creepy to look for a classmate's facebook or google their name? Not to add them but just to have a look.


I do that..well google them idk why but I google myself too lol. I don't think it's creepy


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Just Lurking said:


> Wow, "*AllToAll*", and you're telling me that *I'm* emotionally invested in this topic... Hmmmm.........
> 
> And no, the "dimwitted" comment wasn't directed at you, but some of your judgmental remarks and personal insinuations here (which are rather not appreciated, by the way) are beginning to make me think you fit the bill.
> 
> Anyway, I don't care to go on any further as I've already said my peace, so unless there's something else...


Yes, I'm taking this quite seriously because I'm personally offended about how some guys are personally offended about being called creeps.... :con

I modified my post after rereading.

I just realized I was confusing you with someone else, though. :lol Unless you're the user who made a post a while back about how angry you were that "so many women" were irrationally scared of being raped. Was that you? If it was, all my previous comments still stand. If not, I'm sorry. I thought you were _that_ guy. I'm being completely honest here, by the way.



Theologic said:


> I do that..well google them idk why but I google myself too lol. I don't think it's creepy


C'mon. I do that and even I think it's creepy. I'd be mortified if he found out. :lol


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

AllToAll said:


> I just realized I was confusing you with someone else, though. :lol Unless you're the user who made a post a while back about how angry you were that "so many women" were irrationally scared of being raped. Was that you? If it was, all my previous comments still stand. If not, I'm sorry. I thought you were _that_ guy. I'm being completely honest here, by the way.


Well, no. I'm in the total opposite boat in that I completely sympathize with a woman's fears of being raped. There are lot of sick, dangerous people out there. If I was a woman (insert joke here), I'd actually have a difficult time trusting any male at all.

A guy who's angry about "so many women being irrationally scared of being raped" is a bitter, ignorant person, and probably isn't even worth arguing with.


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## To22 (Apr 6, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> C'mon. I do that and even I think it's creepy. I'd be mortified if he found out. :lol


LMAO yeah now that I think about it you are right..woah! lol never tell him or at least wait until it's cute..like 10 years from now lol.

I guess it depends on the reasons too.



Just Lurking said:


> A guy who's angry about "so many women being irrationally scared of being raped" is a bitter, ignorant person, and probably isn't even worth arguing with.


A woman who is afraid of getting raped is a smart woman. I try to scare all my girlfriends. I don't like them walking out at night alone or even in the daytime. My mom has me go with her to meet people from craigslist so nothing happens.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Just Lurking said:


> Well, no. I'm in the total opposite boat in that I completely sympathize with a woman's fears of being raped. There are lot of sick, dangerous people out there. If I was a woman (insert joke here), I'd actually have a difficult time trusting any male at all.
> 
> A guy who's angry about "so many women being irrationally scared of being raped" sounds like a bitter, ignorant person, and probably isn't even worth arguing with.


Oh, then.... I'm extremely sorry about irrationally arguing with you. I thought you were the same poster. This guy I'm thinking of had some personal issues he was trying to take out on women and I thought he was repeating it in this thread...

In fact, I like this post you just made and I completely agree with it, so now I feel like a complete douche bag that I ever argued with you (although I still don't fully agree with the _other_ comment).

Please go on with your night/morning (depending on where you are) and pay no attention to me. In fact, feel free to forget this ever happened. :lol

Again, sorry.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

It's all good, '*AllToAll*'


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## RiversEdge (Aug 21, 2011)

aw look at this... group huggg :group

:um


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## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

RiversEdge said:


> aw look at this... group huggg :group


 I for one would like to join in the group hug. Less hate,more love! Although honestly its quite obvious that this thread was going to cause some controversy


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## Secretly Pretentious (Dec 18, 2011)

lkkxm said:


> I *feel* like a creep sometimes but I've never been called one. To my face at least . That being said, I think men have a lot of names for women that are just "thrown around" as you say. Why can't women have a couple?


This is what I was thinking when I read the original post. I think the word "creep" is abused and it's really unfortunate. Should men really be labeled as morally and sexual deviant for finding a woman attractive? He can't help that because feeling attracted to a woman is perfectly natural! (As long as he isn't acting in a way that's inappropriate.) But at the same time, I'm wondering how many of these guys in the MRA (or any guy offended by "creeper") carelessly label women as prudes or ****s or b1tches. If women stop labeling men as creeps, then it's only fair that men stop labeling women as prudes/****s/b1tches.


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## RiversEdge (Aug 21, 2011)

Nogy said:


> I for one would like to join in the group hug. Less hate,more love! Although honestly its quite obvious that this thread was going to cause some controversy


:squeeze I'll give you a hug


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## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

RiversEdge said:


> :squeeze I'll give you a hug


Yessssss!! Hugs are wonderful!! I shall return the hug :squeeze And also here is a highfive because, well, because they are wonderful too hehe :high5


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

I really, really disliked that article. It paints a picture of the word that is dismissive of men's feelings, all while trying to shame men for not caring enough about women's feelings. There are a couple passages that I take particular issue with, and I'm going to comment on them primarily.



> One reason men despise the word "creep" so much more than any other insult is that it _isn't_ rooted in misogyny.


This statement and the sentences that follow are flat out incorrect. Men hate the word creep because of the image it paints. Historically, a creep is a stalker, a guy who takes photos of you through your windows, basically a comparison to Gollum.



> Though the word may be occasionally used unfairly


This statement bothered me quite a lot. It is downplaying just how frequent the phrase has come to be used in the past decade or so. Many women will refer to any undesirable or awkward man who approaches them as a creep. Let your eyes linger for a second too long? Congratulations, you are now equivalent to the guy who tries to feel up women on a crowded bus. It's a harsh insult that is levied easily.

Lastly


> After all, the sooner the term becomes socially unacceptable, the sooner men can get back to not having to think about women's boundaries.


This is insulting as hell. I try to be thoughtful and courteous when dealing with other people, but even I can get labeled a creeper by simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And what about _my_ boundaries? Why is it okay for this article writer to try and shame me into accepting this insult?

He posits that women need a word to describe dangerous men. How about the word "dangerous"?


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## strawberryjulius (Jun 28, 2009)

MRAs are constantly calling us names. i don't tend to take anything they say too seriously.


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## gusstaf (Jan 1, 2012)

I do think that some women toss the word "creep" around liberally, just as some men use words like "****" way too often. But from what I've seen, the use of "creep" is often justified. For example,if somebody comes up to me in a club and starts groping me without my permission, he's a creep. He isn't respecting my personal boundaries and is making me feel uncomfortable.


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## RiversEdge (Aug 21, 2011)

Nogy said:


> Yessssss!! Hugs are wonderful!! I shall return the hug :squeeze And also here is a highfive because, well, because they are wonderful too hehe :high5


:lol haha

-- oh yeah! :high5


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> Oh, that's why _you_ are sensitive about it. What was that thing you wrote on the rape thread? Ah, right, people shouldn't get into arguments when they're emotionally attached to the topic. You should take your own advice.


Um.... didn't you also write



AllToAll said:


> what I'd really like is your POV on how the word makes you feel (guys)


It seems to me that you are against the male opinions on this thread simply because they are from men.


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## Flame Sixtyone (Aug 27, 2009)

Selbbin said:


> It seems to me that you are against the male opinions on this thread simply because they are from men.


Yeah seriously, just like this comment:



AllToAll said:


> I'm personally offended about how some guys are personally offended about being called creeps....


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## Farideh (Nov 13, 2011)

cold fission cure said:


> takes time to approach a girl sometimes. should i use the "do you floss before or after brushing" question or the "jealous girlfriend" opener? do i approach from a 45 degree or 30 degree angle? and how quickly? do i wear the feather boa or ditch it for the furry top hat? maybe you changed your breathing pattern and he has to calibrate his approach. maybe your aura shifted color at the last second and ruined his approach and he's hanging back, re-grouping, modifying, calibrating, calibrating, always calibrating (he wishes so bad he had a user's manual). maybe he needs to post for advice on a pick-up forum and he's f5'ing waiting for a response. don't judge.


I knew a guy was going to get offended from what I just posted. So you think following a woman around the store for more than an hour is okay? In your own litle weird world it is but to many of us girls, it's not. IT'S ILLEGAL TO BE STALKING SOMEONE.


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## kiirby (Oct 8, 2010)

It depends. By 'creep', do you mean someone who fails to respect personal boundaries, and continues to breach them despite being informed that it's inappropriate and unwarranted? Or do you mean someone who approaches and pursues the object of their desires solely because of physical attraction, which often involves feigning interest or harmless intentions? 

The former, I'd be more inclined to define as... well... just a prick. But creep is a perfectly functional synonym. Any seemingly undue paranoia and hate of guys who act this way is somewhat justifiable. Anyone who acts in a way that demonstrates a lack of understanding, or a deliberate disregard for the comfort and security of the other person is epitomising that very same damaging mindset that is often seen in sexual predators. Whilst it goes without saying that this could equally be due to poor knowledge of social conventions, to negate the suspicion that can arise as a result would be folly. 

The latter is perhaps harder to condemn since this behaviour is seen inherently as normalcy for the vast majority of people. And it is here that the conflict arises. The idea is that a less desirable male will be construed as being "creepy" for behaving in a way that would be welcomed by a desirable one. This is a misuse of the word, since it uses the implications of being sexually exploitative or abusive as a slight against someone who is behaving, to his knowledge, in an appropriate way (regardless of whether this is correct or not, that's another debate). It is a vicious, derisive defamation. 

However, there is some level of misunderstanding when a guy who is behaving in a legitimately inappropriate way assumes he is being labelled as a creep solely because he is unattractive. 

Personally, I've spent most of my life with an entirely irrational and quite debilitating fear of being thought of as creepy. It's an aspect of my social anxiety and in that regard I see it as something potentially damaging. However, it also represents this whole notion of respecting boundaries, and to that extent there is some justification behind its use. Which is why I struggle to see any valid comparison between the use of the word creep, and, say, ****, since there is no rational argument defending the use of that word.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

^ There's no rational use of the word creep either. How is a woman calling a guy a creep going to protect her in any way, even if he is one? Protecting oneself through a certain level of suspicion is one thing; insulting someone is another. All we ask is, in cases where it is not obvious that the guy is actually dangerous, that he is not _insulted_ after the fact with this word as if it IS certain. Abiding by this principle doesn't compromise one's safety in any way. Besides, in those (quite frequent) cases where a guy is called creepy for purely malicious reasons where the girl doesn't actually believe herself to be in any danger, the word most certainly is just as bad as the word '****'.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> "the ability to label men as 'creepy' is just one privilege that women enjoy, and a constant source of fear of ostracizing that all men must fear in our society."


Uh..I think actually that "privilege" is called freedom of speech, and men enjoy it too.



huh said:


> MRA? lol...


This is pretty much how I feel about MRA groups.

But good lord, what's next? Jerk-Shaming? The thing about the word creep is that it isn't about how someone looks, it's about how someone acts. And women can be creepy too. That aside, there are plenty of female-centric insults, like *****, ****, etc. But I'm sure those MRA-types have no issue with those words.

Anyway, when someone is being creepy it's b/c they're acting in a way that makes another person feel uncomfortable. But of course MRAs don't like the idea that every woman in the universe won't swoon at the mere sight of them, so when they do creepy things (like repeatedly pursue a woman who has made it clear that she isn't interested) and get called on it, they complain that women have "too many rights". Because calling someone out on creepy behavior is apparently a "privilege" that women don't deserve.

Some people do get called creeps when they don't deserve it. Sometimes people get called all kinds of names they don't deserve. It happens. But if being called creepy is a recurring theme with someone, then they might want to take a look at their behavior and try to figure out what they are doing that is making others feel uncomfortable around them.


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## missingno (Sep 29, 2011)

I'm sure every guy as had a women either call them a creep, tell someone they are a creep or have been thought of as a creep unfairly. Of course there are genuine creeps doing stalkerish type behaviour and groping and such. Most of the people who are called creeps are guilty of the terrible crimes of looking too long at someone and asking someone out while unaware they were undesirable to that girl.

As for me it doesn't bother me I can't stop it. If someone was to call me a creep in person I would automatically lose any sort of respect for that person and completely disregard them as a person. Oh and lol at some of the typical feminist responses in this thread


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

missingno said:


> As for me it doesn't bother me I can't stop it. If someone was to call me a creep in person I would automatically lose any sort of respect for that person and completely disregard them as a person. Oh and lol at some of the *typical feminist responses* in this thread


Thinks it's wrong that a certain word can be used to insult men... but uses a certain word to insult women. What a typical creep.


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## missingno (Sep 29, 2011)

rednosereindeer said:


> Thinks it's wrong that a certain word can be used to insult men... but uses a certain word to insult women. What a typical creep.


Um thanks for proving my point I didn't insult women. I clearly mentioned feminists I was unaware every women was a feminist. As for the word creep it will most likely be used by women to demean men just like there are words men use to insult women. It is what it is and most likely won't change. Feel free to quote any part of this message or my previous one outside the feminist part but we both know you have a problem with people who don't agree with your precious agenda


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

Do guys really call women ****s? I don't know anyone who has or have, I thought that was done by other females who describe them as such because they were jealous, or angry.


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## missingno (Sep 29, 2011)

rdrr said:


> Do guys really call women ****s? I don't know anyone who has or have, I thought that was done by other females who describe them as such because they were jealous, or angry.


Yep of course of they do either in anger calling them that or using it as a description in more positive way. For example there are going to be alot of ****s at the party is basically saying that there is some good looking girls they might have a shot with.


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## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

missingno said:


> Yep of course of they do either in anger calling them that or using it as a description in more positive way. For example there are going to be alot of ****s at the party is basically saying that there is some good looking girls they might have a shot with.


why does it have to be in anger? some women are just whorish, my neighbor is a hardcore **** for example


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## enzo (May 30, 2011)

I've never been called a creep. I have been called a few things, including racial slander and terrorist, but not creep. At least not yet. 

Do I think "creep" denotes a negative image? Yes, of course. Is it used wrongly? Yes, like many other terms. Should it stopped being used? Yes, I think it should. Is it the worst possible word intended for insult? No. 

Women who wish to protect themselves from harm should take any and every precaution they can, but it is unfortunate safety can never be guaranteed. Should they go out of their way to label guys who've done them no harm? No, absolutely not. Not only does it hurt the person, but it suggest to others to keep away from them. Is it used predominately toward unattractive men, actions aside? Yes, I would think it is.


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## missingno (Sep 29, 2011)

GD8 said:


> why does it have to be in anger? some women are just whorish, my neighbor is a hardcore **** for example


It doesn't have to be anger but if there is cheating in a relationship alot of words are going to be thrown around and **** would be one of the first used


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

missingno said:


> Um thanks for proving my point I didn't insult women. I clearly mentioned feminists I was unaware every women was a feminist. As for the word creep it will most likely be used by women to demean men just like there are words men use to insult women. It is what it is and most likely won't change. Feel free to quote any part of this message or my previous one outside the feminist part but we both know you have a problem with people who don't agree with your precious agenda












But that's fine. You're an undesirable man. Therefore, your opinion doesn't count.


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## missingno (Sep 29, 2011)

rednosereindeer said:


> But that's fine. You're an undesirable man. Therefore, your opinion doesn't count.


Meh attack the person not the argument typical. As for being undesirable is that supposed to hurt me. I have no desire to be in any sort of relationship at the moment and quite content with being foreveralone. As for you no matter how much I hate myself I would never want to be someone like you. Note it is 7am aka sleepy time here so I might take a bit longer to respond to what I'm sure will be an insightful reply


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## TheDaffodil (Jun 20, 2009)

There are more important things for men to worry about, I think, than the word "creep." People are gonna talk ****. There are plenty of words that offend us, make us feel bad. We haven't been able to get rid of the N word and plenty of people would like to. I would focus on other areas, like creating safer environments for men who have been sexually abused, making other forms of masculinity more acceptable, increasing wages so that men can take care of themselves and their families (it's ridiculous that people can't get by as we did in the past), things like that (very complex issues, yes, but very important I think)...I wouldn't pick a specific word and make a big deal out of it because trends in language...they seem to just have a life of their own. *shrugs*

I do think people use "creeper" too much sometimes but usually I hear it between friends joking with each other, calling each other creepers/stalkers/etc. I rarely hear people use it seriously against a man in a way that would hurt his feelings, you know? I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying that there are a variety of circumstances it is used in.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Once again this perpetuates the social stereotypes that men should man up and stop complaining about anything they may not like while women should be protected from everything because it's wrong to cause them to feel any negative emotion.

And mostly here it's the women who tell the men to man up and don't be offended by Creep, while most men admit that they find it very offensive...


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

rednosereindeer said:


> But that's fine. You're an undesirable man. Therefore, your opinion doesn't count.


Ahhhh... scraping the bottom of the barrel. This hardly establishes you as credible.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> Ahhhh... scraping the bottom of the barrel. This hardly establishes you as credible.


Does it really matter? I was already established (by missingno) as a feminist. To many people, this means I have a precious agenda and my words therefore cannot be taken without a grain of salt.

Life goes on.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

rednosereindeer said:


> Does it really matter? I was already established (by missingno) as a feminist. To many people, this means I have a precious agenda and my words therefore cannot be taken without a grain of salt.


I don't form my opinions of one poster based on the comments of another, and neither would most. We base our opinions on the writings of the person we are forming an opinion of.

It only matters if you want what you write here to serve some sort of purpose. Otherwise, there doesn't really seem much of a point. Just saying so for your benefit, not to be malicious.


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## enzo (May 30, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> Once again this perpetuates the social stereotypes that men should man up and stop complaining about anything they may not like while women should be protected from everything because it's wrong to cause them to feel any negative emotion.
> 
> And mostly here it's the women who tell the men to man up and don't be offended by Creep, while most men admit that they find it very offensive...


*nods*


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

And for the record I get very offended by the word _creep_. However, I have never been called a creep; to my face anyway.

It's the idea that I may be called a creep, and be considered one, which helps drive my anxiety and stops me from many social interactions. Insults, _especially creep _above all else, is a fuel for my anxiety. To me, to be called a creep would be to be accused of being someone with malicious intent, someone who is sleazy, slimy, and disrespectful; someone who is strange and behaves in a very weird, _UNTRUSTWORTHY _way.

I don't want to be thought of like that. If I were told that someone thought I had any of these qualities I would feel ashamed, because I believe that is not who I am. I try to be polite, respectful, honorable and considerate. And then to be told that I'm not is damaging, especially if it's not even true. I would take it to heart and ask myself what part of my behavior is establishing the creep vibe, when it probably isn't anything because it is being thrown around as a cheap insult. It just makes me doubt myself and makes me worry about taking any action at all.

But according to some, on an SA forum no less, that is ok because I am a man and should man up.


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## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

when are these stupid arguments about gender gonna end?

with all the time and energy you spend hating the opposite sex, you probably could have overcome SA by now.


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## enzo (May 30, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> And for the record I get very offended by the word _creep_. However, I have never been called a creep; to my face anyway.
> 
> It's the idea that I may be called a creep, and be considered one, which helps drive my anxiety and stops me from many social interactions. Insults, _especially creep _above all else, is a fuel for my anxiety. To me, to be called a creep would be to be accused of being someone will malicious intent, someone who is sleazy, slimy, and disrespectful; someone who is strange and behaves in a very weird, _UNTRUSTWORTHY _way.
> 
> ...


Truth.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Sorry, Sellbin, I meant



> missingno called me a feminist. While there's technically nothing wrong with being a feminist, the word "feminist" is hardly ever said to women as a way of complimenting them and quickly paints an unflattering image not unlike the one formed when a man is called a "creep." So while it is implied that I shouldn't take offense as long as I didn't fit into the feminist stereotype of a fat, ugly, bitter, man-hating woman (or a nubile woman who's way too loose and fun-loving, whichever is more convenient for the occasion), I took offense anyway and said what I said. Please understand. It's not me. It's the word "feminist."


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

rednosereindeer said:


> Sorry, Sellbin, I meant


 I actually strongly agree that _Feminist_, like Greenie, Hippie, and Communist has been turned into some stupid negative label to sell a stereotype (and discredit the person with those beliefs), as opposed to stating what it actually is. I HATE when people use feminist, or any other normal group, in a derogatory way.

And calling you a feminist with the intent of using it as an insult discredited himself automatically.

(Personally I hate it when people, even my own family, use Greenie in a negative way even while they know that I am a Greenie myself. It really, really annoys me.)


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

Haven't read any of this thread but I just wanted to pop in and say I always imagined as a guy being called a creep was really hurtful. I have called a few guys Creepy McCreeperson, but I am very selective when I use it. The guy really needs to be slimy to warrant it.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Perfectionist said:


> I always imagined as a guy being called a creep was really hurtful.


And it is, especially for the more sensitive out there. To the real creeps and jerks, I imagine they don't really care.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Twelve Keyz said:


> when are these stupid arguments about gender gonna end?
> 
> with all the time and energy you spend hating the opposite sex, you probably could have overcome SA by now.


I didn't realize that overcoming SA was more about waiting than discussing the issues that concern us.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

RiversEdge said:


> aw look at this... group huggg :group
> 
> :um





Nogy said:


> I for one would like to join in the group hug. Less hate,more love! Although honestly its quite obvious that this thread was going to cause some controversy


Yesyesyesyes, let's hug it. :hug:squeeze:group



strawberryjulius said:


> MRAs are constantly calling us names. i don't tend to take anything they say too seriously.


MRAs are a bunch of creeps.

See what I just did there? huhuh.



gustafsg said:


> I do think that some women toss the word "creep" around liberally, just as some men use words like "****" way too often. But from what I've seen, the use of "creep" is often justified. For example,if somebody comes up to me in a club and starts groping me without my permission, he's a creep. He isn't respecting my personal boundaries and is making me feel uncomfortable.


Exactly. I think that the latter part of your post relates to what Hugo (the article's author) is saying.



Selbbin said:


> Um.... didn't you also write
> 
> It seems to me that you are against the male opinions on this thread simply because they are from men.


I never told Just_Lurking not to express his POV. I do want to hear what others have to say, but I also have the right to respond.

But hey, if you want to believe that I don't want to hear what guys have to say (even thought the article is by a MAN so it seems just a tad bit inaccurate), go ahead. I've been called worse than a misandrist.



HardRock said:


> Yeah seriously, just like this comment:


That was sarcasm. :lol



rdrr said:


> Do guys really call women ****s? I don't know anyone who has or have, I thought that was done by other females who describe them as such because they were jealous, or angry.


Uh, yes.



TheDaffodil said:


> There are more important things for men to worry about, I think, than the word "creep." People are gonna talk ****. There are plenty of words that offend us, make us feel bad. We haven't been able to get rid of the N word and plenty of people would like to. I would focus on other areas, like creating safer environments for men who have been sexually abused, making other forms of masculinity more acceptable, increasing wages so that men can take care of themselves and their families (it's ridiculous that people can't get by as we did in the past), things like that (very complex issues, yes, but very important I think)...I wouldn't pick a specific word and make a big deal out of it because trends in language...they seem to just have a life of their own. *shrugs*
> 
> I do think people use "creeper" too much sometimes but usually I hear it between friends joking with each other, calling each other creepers/stalkers/etc. I rarely hear people use it seriously against a man in a way that would hurt his feelings, you know? I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying that there are a variety of circumstances it is used in.


I've been called a creep by my friends dozens of times, and if I use towards a guy I don't actually see it as an insult that can sting. Guess I was wrong.



Selbbin said:


> Once again this perpetuates the social stereotypes that men should man up and stop complaining about anything they may not like while women should be protected from everything because it's wrong to cause them to feel any negative emotion.
> 
> And mostly here it's the women who tell the men to man up and don't be offended by Creep, while most men admit that they find it very offensive...


Right, because whining about a word because it makes them feel bad is such a humanist issue right now. Let's stop the fight against female genitalia mutilation, rape in the military, child prostitution, war against women's reproductive rights, and modern slavery. Let's focus on this one meaningless word because it hurts the feelings of the MRA. A word that perpetuates... um, bad feelings.

No one is telling men not to be offended by the word, but it's not cause for a movement or uproar. Also, you do realize that the article was written by a man who's the founder of The Good Men Project, right?


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> Right, because whining about a word because it makes them feel bad is such a humanist issue right now. Let's stop the fight against female genitalia mutilation, rape in the military, child prostitution, war against women's reproductive rights, and modern slavery. Let's focus on this one meaningless word because it hurts the feelings of the MRA. A word that perpetuates... um, bad feelings.
> 
> No one is telling men not to be offended by the word, but it's not cause for a movement or uproar. Also, you do realize that the article was written by a man who's the found of The Good Men Project, right?


What? That's just.... urgh.

It's not one or the other. And yes, I do realize it was written by a man. So what?


----------



## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

feminists are so annoying jesus christ


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> What? That's just.... urgh.
> 
> It's not one or the other. And yes, I do realize it was written by a man. So what?


"*And mostly here it's the women who tell the men to man up and don't be offended by Creep,* while most men admit that they find it very offensive..."

I know the word is offensive; so is idiot, stupid, ****, etc. I'm not saying don't be offended. If you're being insulted, you have every right to be offended, angry, and a deep urge to want to tell that person to f-off, but the way that the MRA is handling this by saying women have this privilege to "shut men up" with that word is pure bull****.

I don't see how this is such a major issue that you would jump to the idea that this perpetuates the idea that men _should act like men_. This isn't perpetuating anything.



GD8 said:


> feminists are so annoying jesus christ


Yeah, women's rights are so stupid. Those *****es need to stop whining.


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> "*And mostly here it's the women who tell the men to man up and don't be offended by Creep,* while most men admit that they find it very offensive..."


HERE, not out there, here in this forum.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> HERE, not out there, here in this forum.


Okay, then I'll retort the same thing I've written in the last three or so posts between us: I'm not demanding men to not to be insulted by the word.

And if I gave off that idea, SORRY.

EDIT: Wow, six pages. I actually thought this thread would die after a few posts...


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

GD8 said:


> feminists are so annoying jesus christ


Refer to my previous expressions of disliking people using this word and many others in a negative, derogatory way because of stereotypes. It doesn't lend any credibility to your posts.


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

deleted


----------



## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Yeah, women's rights are so stupid. Those *****es need to stop whining.


I'm glad you agree.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

GD8 said:


> I'm glad you agree.


Sure, sure.


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> EDIT: Wow, six pages. I actually thought this thread would die after a few posts...


I guess it strikes a nerve and some men, especially those with anxieties, have issues with the word.


----------



## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

yo the **** that be goin up in here iss crazy dawg


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

GD8 said:


> feminists are so annoying jesus christ


+1


----------



## squidlette (Jan 9, 2012)

Good thing none of them want to go out with you. Everybody wins!


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

I think what is annoying to people who don't invest in an ideology is not the ideology itself, but the often extreme views portrayed by a small minority of that group. Those extreme views often damage the cause and the general population then takes it less seriously than they should. Feminist causes are still extremely relevant in almost all corners of the globe, just like environmental concerns. It's a shame that sometimes extreme views and radicalization damages the credibility of an extremely important cause. The same has happened to environmental causes and animal welfare concerns. luckily the environment became more of a mainstream issue because of a more subdued, all-embracing approach taken by many. Yet even with the environment, there are prejudices held against 'greenies.'


----------



## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

opcorn


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> I didn't realize that overcoming SA was more about waiting than discussing the issues that concern us.


nothing wrong with discussing issues... it's just I haven't seen much "discussion" in threads like these in the past. People always end up personally attacking each other and ultimately lose all credibility -- as you pointed out in another post. It just seems like a colossal waste of time and energy imo. Time and energy that could be used to overcome SA... and yes, overcoming SA usually involves dedicating time and effort. Problems aren't gonna fix themselves.


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Nogy said:


> opcorn


Want!


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

elvin jones said:


> Actually I meant it in a different manner. Like how **** walks try to reclaim the word ****. Maybe creepy guys should reclaim the word creepy and wear it with pride. I dunno how successful it would be though. :|


In that case, here's a little info for ya.

**** walks are to reclaim a word that's used to shut up and put women's issues down. If you knew how **** walks came to be (Canadian police officer said if women didn't dress like "****s" they wouldn't get raped) you'd know that the issue is not comparable to a man being called a creep. **** is a word that's actually used to trivialize rape and sexual harassment. Creep is a word a woman uses when a guy gropes her at a bar. You see how they're not at all comparable? Also, Take Back the Night is a march/protest against rape, so by you editing that poster, you're basically making a march against rape a joke. I'm assuming that wasn't your intention. Just food for thought.


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Twelve Keyz said:


> nothing wrong with discussing issues... it's just I haven't seen much "discussion" in threads like these in the past. People always end up personally attacking each other and ultimately lose all credibility -- as you pointed out in another post. It just seems like a colossal waste of time and energy imo. Time and energy that could be used to overcome SA... and yes, overcoming SA usually involves dedicating time and effort. Problems aren't gonna fix themselves.


You have a valid point. I was just being a jerk. Sorry.


----------



## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

This thread has been Invaded by feminists, run for the hills men.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Twelve Keyz said:


> +1


-2=0
ha



squidlette said:


> Good thing none of them want to go out with you. Everybody wins!


:lol



Selbbin said:


> I think what is annoying to people who don't invest in an ideology is not the ideology itself, but the often extreme views portrayed by a small minority of that group. Those extreme views often damage the cause and the general population then takes it less seriously than they should. Feminist causes are still extremely relevant in almost all corners of the globe, just like environmental concerns. It's a shame that sometimes extreme views and radicalization damages the credibility of an extremely important cause. The same has happened to environmental causes and animal welfare concerns. luckily the environment became more of a mainstream issue because of a more subdued, all-embracing approach taken by many. *Yet even with the environment, there are prejudices held against 'greenies.'*


"****ing hippies..."

I love your post.



Nogy said:


> opcorn


You don't happen to have any sweet and salty there, would you?



Dissonance said:


> This thread has been Invaded by feminists, run for the hills men.


You do realize that some men are feminist, right?


----------



## Abrin (Jul 20, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> Not to mention Hugo Schwyzer is the founder of Good Men's Project, so the opinion is not completely bias.


 The Good Men Project was founded by Tom Matlack. Hugo Schwyzer is a former editor and contributor for GMP--he resigned a few months ago.


----------



## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

squidlette said:


> Good thing none of them want to go out with you. Everybody wins!


Haha exactly!


----------



## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> You do realize that some men are feminist, right?


Oh yes, I'm one of them haha. 8)

Munches my popcorn. opcorn


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> -2=0


1 - 2 = 0?

where did you learn math? :b


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Twelve Keyz said:


> 1 - 2 = 0?
> 
> where did you learn math? :b


The original post + 1 = 2


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> The original post + 1 = 2


how do you know I wasn't just listing the integer +1? :clap


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Twelve Keyz said:


> nothing wrong with discussing issues... it's just I haven't seen much "discussion" in threads like these in the past. People always end up personally attacking each other and ultimately lose all credibility -- as you pointed out in another post. It just seems like a colossal waste of time and energy imo. Time and energy that could be used to overcome SA... and yes, overcoming SA usually involves dedicating time and effort. Problems aren't gonna fix themselves.


They're issues where opinions clash. I'm the only person who has acted immature towards another user and I ended up apologizing. Simply because sometimes insults fly doesn't make the argument or the energy put into it worthless. Certain things need to be discussed regardless of the probability that some insults may arise.

This is the "General" section. Here is not the place to talk about SAD. For that you can go to Coping/Overcoming SAD or Frustration. You could also check LGBTQ if you're gay, Work/Student is you want to talk about anxiety at work or school. Take your pick. There's room for both working on your anxiety and having discussions.

And you're right: problems don't fix themselves, that's why you have to talk about them. That's why arguments are have.


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Twelve Keyz said:


> how do you know I wasn't just listing the integer +1? :clap


:um

...... damn!


----------



## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> You do realize that some men are feminist, right?


No I was actually oblivious to that fact.

Whoops my bad this isn't the place for that.


----------



## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> You do realize that some men are feminist, right?


Yeah and they're all white knights, there's no reason for anyone male or female (especially male) to call themselves a feminist. Every human being should have the exact same rights and feminism is (obviously) biased towards women.


----------



## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> You don't happen to have any sweet and salty there, would you?


Yes, yes i do! I have the giant tin tub thats seperated into differen't kinds. Caramel, cheddar, butter and,lucky for you, sweet and salty!!  Help yourself. Popcorn and hugs for everyone:yay


----------



## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Nogy said:


> Yes, yes i do! I have the giant tin tub thats seperated into differen't kinds. Caramel, cheddar, butter and,lucky for you, sweet and salty!!  Help yourself. Popcorn and hugs for everyone:clap


Any fat-free kind?


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

GD8 said:


> Yeah and they're all white knights, there's no reason for anyone male or female (especially male) to call themselves a feminist. Every human being should have the exact same rights and feminism is (obviously) biased towards women.


Every human should have the same rights, but the point of feminists generally is that at the moment, they don't. Women should have had the vote by right but it took the suffragettes, and men who supported the movement, to make it happen.

Causes need advocates, even if the cause seems obvious. Look at the abolition of slavery in the UK.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Abrin said:


> The Good Men Project was founded by Tom Matlack. Hugo Schwyzer is a former editor and contributor for GMP--he resigned a few months ago.


Thanks for the clarification.



Dissonance said:


> No I was actually oblivious to that fact.


Well I'm happy to have let you know because by the look of your previous post you did seem clueless.



GD8 said:


> Yeah and they're all white knights, there's no reason for anyone male or female (especially male) to call themselves a feminist. Every human being should have the exact same rights and feminism is (obviously) biased towards women.


Feminism is about equality between the sexes. Go read a book. If anything everyone should be a feminist.



GD8 said:


> feminists are so annoying jesus christ





Twelve Keyz said:


> +1


So that's two, right.



Twelve Keyz said:


> 1 - 2 = 0?
> 
> where did you learn math? :b


2 minus 2 equals zero.

Me learn the math at school, mister.

EDIT: I was golden.



Nogy said:


> Yes, yes i do! I have the giant tin tub thats seperated into differen't kinds. Caramel, cheddar, butter and,lucky for you, sweet and salty!!  Help yourself. Popcorn and hugs for everyone:yay


Oh my girsh! I get that at CVS when it's raining outside!! *group hug*


----------



## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

GD8 said:


> Yeah and they're all white knights, there's no reason for anyone male or female (especially male) to call themselves a feminist. Every human being should have the exact same rights and feminism is (obviously) biased towards women.


No feminism isn't biased towards women. The goal of feminism is for both men and women to have equal rights and opportunities. We still have a ways to go.


----------



## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

BobtheSaint said:


> Any fat-free kind?


No, i'm afraid not. But i'm about to go to the store for some beer, i will pick some up for you my friend!! And i will get some low cal beer for you as well, if you prefer. Shiner bock for me though i'm afraid


----------



## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Nogy said:


> No, i'm afraid not. But i'm about to go to the store for some beer, i will pick some up for you my friend!! And i will get some low cal beer for you as well, if you prefer. Shiner bock for me though i'm afraid


Ahhhh 

I never drink, but some lemonade would be fine!


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> They're issues where opinions clash. I'm the only person who has acted immature towards another user and I ended up apologizing. Simply because sometimes insults fly doesn't make the argument or the energy put into it worthless. Certain things need to be discussed regardless of the probability that some insults may arise.
> 
> This is the "General" section. Here is not the place to talk about SAD. For that you can go to Coping/Overcoming SAD or Frustration. You could also check LGBTQ if you're gay, Work/Student is you want to talk about anxiety at work or school. Take your pick. There's room for both working on your anxiety and having discussions.
> 
> And you're right: problems don't fix themselves, that's why you have to talk about them. That's why arguments are have.


have fun arguing then


----------



## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Feminism is about equality between the sexes. Go read a book. If anything everyone should be a feminist.


By definition yes but most feminists don't abide by the dictionary definition, even your posts clearly shows bias towards women. If you were truly a "feminist" then you would call yourself an egalitarian instead.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Nogy said:


> No, i'm afraid not. But i'm about to go to the store for some beer, i will pick some up for you my friend!! And i will get some low cal beer for you as well, if you prefer. Shiner bock for me though i'm afraid


I have some Stella Artois and Corona...and I share.  But do get Bob some fat-free beer/pop corn.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

GD8 said:


> By definition yes but most feminists don't abide by the dictionary definition, even your posts clearly shows bias towards women. If you were truly a "feminist" then you would call yourself an egalitarian instead.


That's the go-to answer when one isn't informed about feminism. Also, feminists are egalitarians.


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

GD8 said:


> By definition yes but most feminists don't abide by the dictionary definition, even your posts clearly shows bias towards women. If you were truly a "feminist" then you would call yourself an egalitarian instead.


also... the word "feminist" itself 
Feminist

Feminine
Feminine
Feminine 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femininity

Coincidence?


----------



## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

BobtheSaint said:


> Ahhhh
> 
> I never drink, but some lemonade would be fine!


Mikes hard lemonade it is!!:drunk


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Twelve Keyz said:


> also... the word "feminist" itself
> Feminist
> 
> Feminine
> ...


Hmm, could it be because it's about women's rights? You know, trying to be equal to men...because we live in a patriarchal society. No, no, no coincidence.

I thought you were going to leave and let us argue?


----------



## Syndacus (Aug 9, 2011)

Guys need to actually grow a pair and stop being wimps just because some woman calls you creepy, makes fun of your anatomy or some other crap. A girl calls me creepy, and I'm fine because I don't have to waste my time on trying to be friends with her.


----------



## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Nogy said:


> Mikes hard lemonade it is!!:drunk


Yowza! :cup


----------



## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Hmm, could it be because it's about women's rights? You know, trying to be equal to men...because we live in a patriarchal society. No, no, no coincidence.
> 
> I thought you were going to leave and let us argue?





AllToAll said:


> Also, feminists are egalitarians.


These two statements are completely contradictory. In reality feminism is about WOMEN'S rights and women's rights alone (which you pretty much inadvertently admitted in the first quote), bias towards one specific group's right is NOT egalitarianism. Feminists are sexist, end of story brah.



Twelve Keyz said:


> also... the word "feminist" itself
> Feminist
> 
> Feminine
> ...


exactly


----------



## squidlette (Jan 9, 2012)

Nogy said:


> No, i'm afraid not. But i'm about to go to the store for some beer, i will pick some up for you my friend!! And i will get some low cal beer for you as well, if you prefer. Shiner bock for me though i'm afraid


I will pay you to ship me some ziegenbock. Srsly. I have no idea if that's legal though. lol Should probably find that out first.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

GD8 said:


> These two statements are completely contradictory. In reality feminism is about WOMEN'S rights and women's rights alone (which you pretty much inadvertently admitted in the first quote), bias towards one specific group's right is NOT egalitarianism. Feminists are sexist, end of story brah.
> 
> exactly


It's about women's rights because we are not always seen as equal in society. 
My previous statements don't, at all, contradict each other.
If you want to talk about feminism, though, this isn't the thread to do so. PM or create one and I'd be happy to reply.


----------



## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> It's about women's rights because we are not always seen as equal in society.
> My previous statements don't, at all, contradict each other.
> If you want to talk about feminism, though, this isn't the thread to do so. PM or create one and I'd be happy to reply.


They definitely do, read my post. And women are pretty god damn equal in our society, really what do you go through on a daily basis that's so unjust? Btw this thread hasn't been on topic for a while now in case you haven't noticed


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> you'd know that the issue is not comparable to a man being called a creep. **** is a word that's actually used to trivialize rape and sexual harassment. Creep is a word a woman uses when a guy gropes her at a bar. You see how they're not at all comparable?


 You're being disingenuous here. It's been said numerous times that the objection is to using the word against guys who haven't done anything wrong, not to guys who grope women at the bar. Also people who speak out against the word **** are not only complaining about it being used to trivialize rape. They're also complaining about it being used to insult promiscuous women. But would you tell these people to stop making a big case about insults against promiscuous women?

As for the two not being comparable, that's also not true in many situations. Unwarranted use of the word 'creep' can be used to shun people from a social group, or to destroy a man's reputation. The same type of misuse can be used to make false rape allegations which can destroy a man's reputation even if he's not prosecuted. So it's not just a simple insult like 'idiot'; it's worse because there's a lot of meaning in it.

So why not just acknowledge that yes, the malicious use or overuse of this word can be very harmful and shouldn't happen, and leave it at that? Addressing the issues of one gender doesn't mean that the other gender's issues have to be disregarded. It's not a zero-sum game. The malicious use of the word creep is a legitimate complaint which shouldn't be minimized, just as the malicious use of the word **** is a legitimate complaint which shouldn't be minimized.

PS. And just so people don't think I'm being a language-nazi, I have no problem with the word being used in a humorous way (unless that humour is used to ridicule someone). It's when it's used in a derogatory / judgemental way toward someone that I take exception.


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

GD8 said:


> They definitely do, read my post. And women are pretty god damn equal in our society, really what do you go through on a daily basis that's so unjust? Btw this thread hasn't been on topic for a while now in case you haven't noticed


Well there are still issues like pay, etc. where there are inequalities. But addressing such issues shouldn't mean that issues that men face shouldn't also be addressed with the proper care and sensitivity.


----------



## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> Well there are still issues like pay, etc. where there are inequalities. But addressing such issues shouldn't mean that issues that men face shouldn't also be addressed with the proper care and sensitivity.


I'm gonna get **** for this but I don't think women have the right to complain about any disparities in pay when they don't even have to work if they don't want to. not to mention it's much easier for them to get jobs than it is for men.


----------



## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

^ That's not true in all cases... many women have no choice but to work and they should get equal pay for that. But anyway, I don't want to get into a whole different debate so I'll leave it that.


----------



## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> ^ That's not true in all cases... many women have no choice but to work and they should get equal pay for that. But anyway, I don't want to get into a whole different debate so I'll leave it that.


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Ape in space said:


> ^ That's not true in all cases... many women have no choice but to work and they should get equal pay for that.


 All I know is that the casually employed women earn the exact same as men where I work; the same $ per hour for the same roles. And I also know that there are women here who do the same job as me and earn almost 1/3 more because they joined when the company had more money and signed a better deal.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

GD8 said:


> They definitely do, read my post. And women are pretty god damn equal in our society, really what do you go through on a daily basis that's so unjust? Btw this thread hasn't been on topic for a while now in case you haven't noticed





GD8 said:


> I'm gonna get **** for this but I don't think women have the right to complain about any disparities in pay when they don't even have to work if they don't want to. not to mention it's much easier for them to get jobs than it is for men.


You just proved my point. You are the problem, little guy. You and your ignorance.
The thread might have gone off topic, but mostly in discussions intentionally derailing it and not creating a different argument.



Dissonance said:


>


That's what society expects and not all individual women (or men).

Christ, I can't believe people still poke the same old argument.



Selbbin said:


> All I know is that the casually employed women earn the exact same as men where I work; the same $ per hour for the same roles. And I also know that there are women here who do the same job as me and earn almost 1/3 more because they joined when the company had more money and signed a better deal.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47080994/ns/local_news-seattle_wa/t/pay-gap-between-men-women-persists/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States



Ape in space said:


> You're being disingenuous here. It's been said numerous times that the objection is to using the word against guys who haven't done anything wrong, not to guys who grope women at the bar.
> *Also people who speak out against the word **** are not only complaining about it being used to trivialize rape. They're also complaining about it being used to insult promiscuous women. * But would you tell these people to stop making a big case about insults against promiscuous women?


Both issues are interrelated, so no because that's a bigger issue than the word creep.



> As for the two not being comparable, that's also not true in many situations. Unwarranted use of the word 'creep' can be used to shun people from a social group, or to destroy a man's reputation. The same type of misuse can be used to make false rape allegations which can destroy a man's reputation even if he's not prosecuted. So it's not just a simple insult like 'idiot'; it's worse because there's a lot of meaning in it.


Give me an example where this word could actually go as far as "ruining a man's reputation" the way the word **** could shame a woman into not reporting a rape.



> So why not just acknowledge that yes, the malicious use or overuse of this word can be very harmful and shouldn't happen, and leave it at that? Addressing the issues of one gender doesn't mean that the other gender's issues have to be disregarded. It's not a zero-sum game. The malicious use of the word creep is a legitimate complaint which shouldn't be minimized, just as the malicious use of the word **** is a legitimate complaint which shouldn't be minimized.


It's a malicious word just like any insult, and I never wrote (at least I don't recall) stating that it wasn't harmful, but it's not comparable to a word that's used to "put women in their place." A word that tells them that if anything were ever to happen to them (i.e. rape/sexual harassment) it's their fault.


----------



## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

squidlette said:


> I will pay you to ship me some ziegenbock. Srsly. I have no idea if that's legal though. lol Should probably find that out first.


Sadly, its illegal to mail alcohol  If you're ever in Austin though, we shall go to 6th street and i will buy you all the ziegenbocks you can drink! :drunk I assure you though, ziegonbock is nothing special. Your not missing out on much


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

AllinAll -I'm not disputing inequality exists elsewhere so there is no need for me to open the links. And I don't live in the US. I was just giving my viewpoint from where I stand. It's not a black and white, women get less for the same job argument because that as a core concept, _where I am,_ simply isn't true.


----------



## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> That's what society expects and not all individual women (or men).
> 
> Christ, I can't believe people still poke the same old argument.


Yes but it's true. Society does expect that and you know what? Despite how old it is people still think that way.


----------



## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> You just proved my point. You are the problem, little guy. You and your ignorance.
> The thread might have gone off topic, but mostly in discussions intentionally derailing it and not creating a different argument.


What point was your exactly? You haven't been doing very well in this "debate" so far and you haven't even told me what injustices (if any) that you go through. I'm not speaking out of ignorance, those are just my observations. Are you saying it's not easier for women to get jobs than men? Because my sister could quit her job tomorrow and easily find a new job within a week. Our patriarchal society also means men have to work no matter what, women have the option to just sit on their *** all day if they want to.



Dissonance said:


>


So true


----------



## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

I still lack the ability to form paragraphs.....or maybe because images are worth a thousand words. Anyways I'm a creep I stare at women and people hate me for it from what I hear I deserve to be treated badly, because I was so young and thought she was pretty.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

GD8 said:


> What point was your exactly? You haven't been doing very well in this "debate" so far and you haven't even told me what injustices (if any) that you go through. I'm not speaking out of ignorance, those are just my observations. Are you saying it's not easier for women to get jobs than men? Because my sister could quit her job tomorrow and easily find a new job within a week. Our patriarchal society also means men have to work no matter what, women have the option to just sit on their *** all day if they want to.
> 
> So true


Where do I find one of these men that will pay for all of my expenses? I'm quite tired of school and work drains the life out of you.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

I can't help but be reminded of the song, _Creep_.

You float like a feather
In a beautiful world
I wish I was special
You're so ****in' special

But I'm a creep
I'm a weirdo
What the hell am I doing here?
I don't belong here


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## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

komorikun said:


> Where do I find one of these men that will pay for all of my expenses?


idk, anywhere?

my neighbor just does coke and sleeps with random guys while her husband works all day. It's really not a difficult goal to achieve as a woman.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

GD8 said:


> I'm gonna get **** for this but I don't think women have the right to complain about any disparities in pay when they don't even have to work if they don't want to. not to mention it's much easier for them to get jobs than it is for men.


Oh, okay. I really don't feel like working tomorrow, so I think I'm just going to take the day off just because I can. I think I might get fired if I don't call in sick, but even if I do no problem - it's just that easy for women to get jobs than it is for men that even with my nonexistent interview skills someone else's going to want to hire me in no time.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

The comment is absurd. I'm not sure if there's even a need to point out why.


----------



## minimized (Nov 17, 2007)

rednosereindeer said:


> Oh, okay. I really don't feel like working tomorrow, so I think I'm just going to take the day off just because I can. I think I might get fired if I don't call in sick, but even if I do no problem - it's just that easy for women to get jobs than it is for men that even with my nonexistent interview skills someone else's going to want to hire me in no time.


I know, I'm going to tell my mom that she doesn't have to regret losing her job anymore, going to her new crappy job, doing all those interviews and school work... it's been so easy.

Not that I agree with the casual tossing of the word _creep_... so if my eyes in a desperate attempt to avoid eye contact cross some random woman's field of vision and she calls me a creep, I'm going to call her something nasty that she won't like because it will force her to reflect carefully on how she makes me feel. After all, the sooner it becomes acceptable the sooner fools can get back to not having to think about my boundaries.

Reserve it for the people who deserve it.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Dissonance said:


> Yes but it's true. Society does expect that and you know what? Despite how old it is people still think that way.


Individuals don't all the same way, so no. But keep on perpetuating those ideals. That's very healthy.



GD8 said:


> What point was your exactly? You haven't been doing very well in this "debate" so far and you haven't even told me what injustices (if any) that you go through. I'm not speaking out of ignorance, those are just my observations. Are you saying it's not easier for women to get jobs than men? Because my sister could quit her job tomorrow and easily find a new job within a week. Our patriarchal society also means men have to work no matter what, women have the option to just sit on their *** all day if they want to.
> 
> So true


This is a debate? You wailing sexist/ignorant remarks and me retorting with a sigh is a debate? Well then I'm so sorry I've failed in this poor-excuse of a debate, but I find it quite pointless to argue with an ignorant. You seem like a loss cause. I'm crossing my fingers that it's only due to your age and you'll grow out of it eventually. Your ignorance is most evident in your idea that a woman can just go on and quit her job, and like a magic trick get another one. All we have to do, even us uglies, is put on a tight skirt, walk into any old H&M, and get a nice job that doesn't pay enough to pay the rent. Riiight. And of course, all women can just sit on their *** when they're single, or single and raising a kid, and have, wait, who do they have to pay rent? Their nonexistent husband? Feel free to let me know how they can sit on their *** and have a roof over their heads. Not to mention more women (14.5%) live in poverty than men (12%). It doesn't help that we get 75 cents to man's dollar.

But please feel free to tell me how we women can magically get a job or sustain ourselves without one. I'd particularly like more info on the latter since I'd really like to not have to work while in school. Thanks!


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> It's a malicious word just like any insult, and I never wrote (at least I don't recall) stating that it wasn't harmful, but it's not comparable to a word that's used to "put women in their place."


You're still missing my point, which is that it is a particularly powerful word and therefore the concerns *shouldn't be minimized* by saying things like 'it's not as bad as ****' or that it is like any other insult. It can be just as bad depending on the situation, and there's no reason why _both_ concerns shouldn't be taken seriously.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> You're still missing my point, which is that it is a particularly powerful word and therefore the concerns *shouldn't be minimized* by saying things like 'it's not as bad as ****' or that it is like any other insult. It can be just as bad depending on the situation, and there's no reason why _both_ concerns shouldn't be taken seriously.


I get your point. I just don't see it as valid. It's an insult, but not as problematic as say calling a woman **** or a black person ******.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

All of a sudden I'm getting ignored. Dammit. I need to be controversial! Um....

Checkered whiptail lizards are gay.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> I can't help but be reminded of the song, _Creep_.
> 
> You float like a feather
> In a beautiful world
> ...


You probably weren't the first.



Selbbin said:


> The comment is absurd. I'm not sure if there's even a need to point out why.


If this is in regards to G18, I agree. I think I should just let him play with himself for a while. I mean...



Selbbin said:


> All of a sudden I'm getting ignored. Dammit. I need to be controversial! Um....
> 
> Checkered whiptail lizards are gay.


Woah, hey, are you using the word gay as a insult!? Why I outta...

Feel better?


----------



## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> If this is in regards to G18, I agree. I think I should just let him play with himself for a while. I mean...
> Woah, hey, are you using the word gay as a insult!? Why I outta...
> 
> Feel better?


Yes and yes.

Although I did discover some fascinating stuff when researching checkered whiptail lizards.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

GD8 said:


> idk, anywhere?
> 
> my neighbor just does coke and sleeps with random guys while her husband works all day. It's really not a difficult goal to achieve as a woman.


:clap

I know men who do this. My ex also dated several of them and supported them.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> Yes and yes.
> 
> Although I did discover some fascinating stuff when researching checkered whiptail lizards.


Word.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> All of a sudden I'm getting ignored. Dammit. I need to be controversial! Um....
> 
> Checkered whiptail lizards are gay.


What? Checkered whiptail lizards are kick-***. :b


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Individuals don't all the same way, so no. But keep on perpetuating those ideals. That's very healthy.


Hm. You may be right I don't know women at all, they refuse to speak to me. In fact... I don't think I've ever spoken to them, all I see is the shallow acts they did in high school but since becoming a recluse and never leaving the confines of my house. It matter not, either way I don't appreciate being called a creep, I have never called a woman a s***, w****, or any other derogatory slur. I expect to be treated the same way....yet I am still offensively called "odd, or weird" or treated harshly when I have never consciously hurt anyone.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Dissonance said:


> Hm. You may be right I don't know women at all, they refuse to speak to me. In fact... I don't think I've ever spoken to them, all I see is the shallow acts they did in high school but since becoming a recluse and never leaving the confines of my house. It matter not, either way I don't appreciate being called a creep, I have never called a woman a s***, w****, or any other derogatory slur. I expect to be treated the same way....yet I am still offensively called "odd, or weird" or treated harshly when I have never consciously hurt anyone.


I _am_ right. Otherwise, I could go ahead and make ridiculous generalizations about men like how they're all a bunch of creeps... :roll

We are all insulted whether we're good people or bad. I'm called odd and weird, too. Being quiet is not taken well by others. It makes them feel uncomfortable.


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> I get your point. I just don't see it as valid. It's an insult, but not as problematic as say calling a woman **** or a black person ******.


****-shaming isn't as problematic as starvation in Africa, therefore it isn't a valid thing to complain about?


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## squidlette (Jan 9, 2012)

Nogy said:


> Sadly, its illegal to mail alcohol  If you're ever in Austin though, we shall go to 6th street and i will buy you all the ziegenbocks you can drink! :drunk I assure you though, ziegonbock is nothing special. Your not missing out on much


I'm from Texas originally.... I have a soft spot for ziegenbock because it was my first. 

I'm in Austin at least twice a year, but the only place I go that's anywhere near 6th is Elysium.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Charizard said:


> ****-shaming isn't as problematic as starvation in Africa, therefore it isn't a valid thing to complain about?


They're both preventable.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Charizard said:


> ****-shaming isn't as problematic as starvation in Africa, therefore it isn't a valid thing to complain about?


Let me rephrase that: "creep-shaming" isn't *problematic*. Period.


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

Selbbin said:


> They're both preventable.


My point was mostly in reference to the futility of playing oppression olympics.



AllToAll said:


> Let me rephrase that: "creep-shaming" isn't *problematic*. Period.


You don't really get to say that. You're female. It isn't an insult that is ever used against females in a serious and shaming way. Just like I don't get to say "well upright young ladies don't usually get called ****s so it is okay for ****-shaming to happen". Being a male, it is not anywhere close to my right to tell women what is or isn't problematic language for them.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Charizard said:


> My point was mostly in reference to the futility of playing oppression olympics.


Isn't there a scene from the oppression Olympics in the new movie The Dictator?


----------



## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

What's with all the arguing about feminism? If you think men and women should be equal, then you are indeed a feminist. Yes, there are different _types_ of feminism and some of them are ridiculous, but they shouldn't all be lumped in together and branded as misandry because they're not ALL about man-hate. At its roots, it's about believing in gender equality... That's IT.

More towards the topic, if you're the kind of guy who passively throws around the word "****" when referring to females, then you are in no position to complain about anything a woman says about men. Likewise, if you are a woman who passively throws around the word "creep" when referring to males, then you are in no position to be complaining about anything a man says about women. To be either, is to be hypocritical, I think.

Both are obviously highly offensive to their respective sides (moreso than your standard insults and be it for very different reasons, but..) -- why not leave it be?


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> I _am_ right. Otherwise, I could go ahead and make ridiculous generalizations about men like how they're all a bunch of creeps... :roll
> 
> We are all insulted whether we're good people or bad. I'm called odd and weird, too. Being quiet is not taken well by others. It makes them feel uncomfortable.


But how frequent are these individuals? I ask you how _many_ actually think this way rather then believing in what society says is a honest relationship between two people? Maybe you have proven that you indeed believe that you yourself believe in true equality, in a sense that if you hit me then there should be no problem in you hitting me back.

So it makes it okay?


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm getting dizzy. This is going around in circles.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Just Lurking said:


> What's with all the arguing about feminism? If you think men and women should be equal, then you are indeed a feminist. Yes, there are different _types_ of feminism and some of them are ridiculous, but they shouldn't all be lumped in together and branded as misandry because they're not ALL about man-hate. At its roots, it's about believing in gender equality... That's IT.
> 
> More towards the topic, if you're the kind of guy who passively throws around the word "****" when referring to females, then you are in no position to complain about anything a woman says about men. Likewise, if you are a woman who passively throws around the word "creep" when referring to males, then you are in no position to be complaining about anything a man says about women. To be either, is to be hypocritical, I think.
> 
> Both are obviously highly offensive to their respective sides (moreso than your standard insults and be it for very different reasons, but..) -- why not leave it be?


Wonderful post. :yes :yes

/thread


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Just Lurking said:


> What's with all the arguing about feminism? If you think men and women should be equal, then you are indeed a feminist. Yes, there are different _types_ of feminism and some of them are ridiculous, but they shouldn't all be lumped in together and branded as misandry because they're not ALL about man-hate. At its roots, it's about believing in gender equality... That's IT.
> 
> More towards the topic, if you're the kind of guy who passively throws around the word "****" when referring to females, then you are in no position to complain about anything a woman says about men. Likewise, if you are a woman who passively throws around the word "creep" when referring to males, then you are in no position to be complaining about anything a man says about women. To be either, is to be hypocritical, I think.
> 
> Both are obviously highly offensive to their respective sides (moreso than your standard insults and be it for very different reasons, but..) -- why not leave it be?


I can live with this.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Charizard said:


> You don't really get to say that. You're female. It isn't an insult that is ever used against females in a serious and shaming way. Just like I don't get to say "well upright young ladies don't usually get called ****s so it is okay for ****-shaming to happen". Being a male, it is not anywhere close to my right to tell women what is or isn't problematic language for them.


Show me how calling a guy a creep can cause larger problems, aside from making him feel bad, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, I have every right to say it's just another insult.

Some people take certain things closer to heart because it touches a nerve. Like most guys with SAD taking it personally because they're quiet and fear people call them creeps because of it. That doesn't mean that the insult itself is problematic as in it opens other issues.

Something being problematic and something hurting someone's feeling aren't the same thing. I don't have a penis, but I assume if someone merely slaps it it'll hurt like a mofo. I don't need to be a man to be sympathetic about the situation. I'm not measuring how much being called a creep will hurt you personally, I'm saying it doesn't cause greater issues.



Dissonance said:


> But how frequent are these individuals? I ask you how _many_ actually think this way rather then believing in what society says is a honest relationship between two people? Maybe you have proven that you indeed believe that you yourself believe in true equality, in a sense that if you hit me then there should be no problem in you hitting me back.
> 
> So it makes it okay?


Let me go ask everyone in the world what they think and I'll get back to you. I don't know, but people vary and jumping to ridiculous conclusions is counter-productive. You don't like the idea, then change it. Don't linger on how society is set up X way and so I'm going to ***** about it and see it as a truth.

Finally, hitting people isn't okay, so no (I assume that's what you meant with your last question).


----------



## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> This is a debate? You wailing sexist/ignorant remarks and me retorting with a sigh is a debate? Well then I'm so sorry I've failed in this poor-excuse of a debate, but I find it quite pointless to argue with an ignorant.


 I was actually extremely civil in the beginning and I still haven't said anything sexist, you may have misconstrued some things as sexist but that's just how a feminist's brain works. That's cool though, I forgive you.



AllToAll said:


> You seem like a loss cause. I'm crossing my fingers that it's only due to your age and you'll grow out of it eventually.


You're not a very good militant feminist if you give up that easily, I'm not even sexist so how are you gonna convert the guys who actually are? I'm only 4 years younger than you btw so gj being condescending.



AllToAll said:


> Your ignorance is most evident in your idea that a woman can just go on and quit her job, and like a magic trick get another one. All we have to do, even us uglies, is put on a tight skirt, walk into any old H&M, and get a nice job that doesn't pay enough to pay the rent. Riiight. And of course, all women can just sit on their *** when they're single, or single and raising a kid, and have, wait, who do they have to pay rent? Their nonexistent husband? Feel free to let me know how they can sit on their *** and have a roof over their heads. Not to mention more women (14.5%) live in poverty than men (12%). It doesn't help that we get 75 cents to man's dollar.


Women can and do use sex appeal to get ahead, you're lying to yourself if you deny that. As a man without a degree you're not gonna make enough to pay the rent on your own, that extra 25 cents to the dollar doesn't do as much as you apparently think it does. I don't make anywhere near as much as I need to pay my rent, if I didn't have money saved up I would be homeless right now.

If you're really ugly like you say you are then that's a whole different story. I'd hate to quote daniel tosh but being an ugly woman is like being a man, you're gonna have to work.



AllToAll said:


> But please feel free to tell me how we women can magically get a job or sustain ourselves without one. I'd particularly like more info on the latter since I'd really like to not have to work while in school. Thanks!


Idk, **** some guy? That's how most of the women that I know do it.



rednosereindeer said:


> Oh, okay. I really don't feel like working tomorrow, so I think I'm just going to take the day off just because I can. I think I might get fired if I don't call in sick, but even if I do no problem - it's just that easy for women to get jobs than it is for men that even with my nonexistent interview skills someone else's going to want to hire me in no time.


Imagine if you were a man with no interview skills, that would really suck.



Just Lurking said:


> What's with all the arguing about feminism? If you think men and women should be equal, then you are indeed a feminist. Yes, there are different _types_ of feminism and some of them are ridiculous, but they shouldn't all be lumped in together and branded as misandry because they're not ALL about man-hate. At its roots, it's about believing in gender equality... That's IT.


If it was truly about equality then it wouldn't be called FEMINism. If it's about gender equality then it should have a gender neutral name, that's only logical.



AllToAll said:


> I get your point. I just don't see it as valid. It's an insult, but not as problematic as say calling a women **** or a black person ******.


Are you seriously comparing **** to the N word right now? Jesus christ your way of thinking is so backwards


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

Just Lurking said:


> More towards the topic, if you're the kind of guy who passively throws around the word "****" when referring to females, then you are in no position to complain about anything a woman says about men. Likewise, if you are a woman who passively throws around the word "creep" when referring to males, then you are in no position to be complaining about anything a man says about women. To be either, is to be hypocritical, I think.


The thread should have ended with this post. Really nothing more to say.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Let me go ask everyone in the world what they think and I'll get back to you. I don't know, but people vary and jumping to ridiculous conclusions is counter-productive. You don't like the idea, then change it. Don't linger on how society is set up X way and so I'm going to ***** about it.
> 
> Finally, hitting people isn't okay, so no.


Then maybe there is hope for people, I may not see it often and people are not as accepting as I hope everyone to be but I suppose there is hope that there are people who aren't that way. Even still I remain cautious, for I never know the true intentions of people. But you are right.

Hmm depends on the situation in where a person is okay to hit.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Twelve Keyz said:


> The thread should have ended with this post. Really nothing more to say.


No, because there's more to it than that.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

Selbbin said:


> Isn't there a scene from the oppression Olympics in the new movie The Dictator?


As I said, from the oppression Olympics:


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> it's just another insult.


It is not just another insult. To _many_ men, it is the worst possible casual insult that you can throw at them. It is in its own league in terms of things it feels like you're being smacked to be called. You have evidence of that here and in the comments section of every single article on the entire internet about the topic. No other insult for men causes more insecurity.

When people compare "creep-shaming" to "****-shaming" then I agree with you that it is probably not the same thing. What is it closer to? "crazy-shaming" or "ugly-shaming". It is an easily brandished dismissal of an undesirable. If you don't see how that kind of language or narrative over the course of years lands people in therapy, then I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## Resonance (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't get why guys make such a fuss over this particular insult.

I've been called a creep by loads of women, and sure, in cases where I was already feeling down or had any respect for their opinion, it didn't make me feel good. Nobody likes being insulted.

A woman is entitled to think you are a creep, if she is rude enough to say so then this can be hurtful...but a lot of men seem to act like this is some kind of violation of their human rights, rather than a dumb insult. Can't you just like, get over it?


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

GD8 said:


> I was actually extremely civil in the beginning and I still haven't said anything sexist, you may have misconstrued some things as sexist but that's just how a feminist's brain works. That's cool though, I forgive you.


Stating that women's lives are easier than men is sexist. Saying that we can easily go find a Joe Schmo to take care of us and not work a day in our lives is sexist. Saying that feminism is ridiculous is putting all ideologies of equality down the drain and that _is_ sexist.

You may not have directly insulted anyone, but you were never civil. Ignorance isn't civilized.



> You're not a very good militant feminist if you give up that easily, I'm not even sexist so how are you gonna convert the guys who actually are? I'm only 4 years younger than you btw so gj being condescending.


Where did I claim to be a "militant" feminist? What would you know about feminism anyways? You're clueless.

Your sexism is condescending so I'll throw back right to you.



> Women can and do use sex appeal to get ahead, you're lying to yourself if you deny that. As a man without a degree you're not gonna make enough to pay the rent on your own, that extra 25 cents to the dollar doesn't do as much as you apparently think it does. I don't make anywhere near as much as I need to pay my rent, if I didn't have money saved up I would be homeless right now.


Showing your tits might get a conventionally beautiful woman's foot in the door, but that won't get her a job.

As a man or a woman with a degree, you mean.

The extra 25 cents, when added up does make a difference, but that's beside the point. There should be no discrepancy. Period.

****, welcome to the club, and I have a vagina. I really did wish my vagina made my life easier, you know, like get me coffee and stuff once in a while.



> If you're really ugly like you say you are then that's a whole different story. I'd hate to quote daniel tosh but being an ugly woman is like being a man, you're gonna have to work.


Ah, okay, then it's only beautiful women who can get anything they want. This, I guess, throws your senile argument of women's lives being easier out the window. 
Quoting Daniel Tosch. Wow. Couldn't get a Rush Limbaugh quote at least?



> Idk, **** some guy? That's how most of the women that I know do it.


So easy. Let me go outside right now, find a man that makes over 50k a year, and all my problems will be solved. So how does this work, in your theory, if I'm not the conventionally beautiful woman? You know, the one who has to work, like Daniel Tosch said?



> Imagine if you were a man with no interview skills, that would really suck.


Having no interview skill, regardless of sex, won't get you a job. Stop being so bitter.



> If it was truly about equality then it wouldn't be called FEMINism. If it's about gender equality then it should have a gender neutral name, that's only logical.


If you knew **** about history (you know, like women couldn't vote in the US), you'd realize that it is.



> Are you seriously comparing **** to the N word right now? Jesus christ your way of thinking is so backwards


Both groups have been historically put down, so yes. It's not backwards, it's comparable.


----------



## RawrJessiRawr (Nov 3, 2010)

Hmmn I call both men and female creepy lol they are equal to me, only if they start acting stalkerish, ect


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Charizard said:


> It is not just another insult. To _many_ men, it is the worst possible casual insult that you can throw at them. It is in its own league in terms of things it feels like you're being smacked to be called. You have evidence of that here and in the comments section of every single article on the entire internet about the topic. No other insult for men causes more insecurity.
> 
> When people compare "creep-shaming" to "****-shaming" then I agree with you that it is probably not the same thing. What is it closer to? "crazy-shaming" or "ugly-shaming". It is an easily brandished dismissal of an undesirable. If you don't see how that kind of language or narrative over the course of years lands people in therapy, then I don't know what to tell you.


Are you missing my point, or are you actively trying to miss it?

NO ONE can throw casual insults at other people. It's called an insult for a reason; it makes people feel bad. My argument is that calling someone a creep doesn't cause larger social problems like the word **** does.

Creep-shaming is not comparable to anything because it isn't anything. Some guys take it personally, like I stated in my previous post, because it hits a nerve, but it DOES NOT HAVE any larger social implications.


----------



## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

I just can't believe this is nearly 200 posts long.

ps. Having spent a lengthy amount of time in chat, we have some serious "creeps" round these parts!


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## Buerhle (Mar 6, 2006)

Ospi said:


> I just can't believe this is nearly 200 posts long.
> 
> ps. Having spent a lengthy amount of time in chat, we have some serious "creeps" round these parts!


What exactly goes on in that chat room?

Post #201


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Ospi said:


> I just can't believe this is nearly 200 posts long.
> 
> ps. Having spent a lengthy amount of time in chat, we have some serious "creeps" round these parts!


A large chunk of it was a discussion on pop corn, so believe it 'cause most of it is off-topic.


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## lyssado707 (Oct 29, 2004)

I don't like hearing anyone get called a creep or some other negative term because I think people are too complex to be summed up in one word. Instead, saying when you did...was creepy. Or when I found out about....that was creepy. Or when you said...that came off as creepy to me. So separating the behavior from the person by using the creep term in a different way.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Whir said:


> What exactly goes on in that chat room?
> 
> Post #201


Can't pinpoint anything in particular, just having been there for 3 years on and off and talking with people there and them explaining the PM messages they have received and also people who sometimes dont even keep their weird and wonderful thoughts to a PM. Some of it is worrying.


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Are you missing my point, or are you actively trying to miss it?
> 
> NO ONE can throw casual insults at other people. It's called an insult for a reason; it makes people feel bad. My argument is that calling someone a creep doesn't cause larger social problems like the word **** does.
> 
> Creep-shaming is not comparable to anything because it isn't anything. Some guys take it personally, like I stated in my previous post, because it hits a nerve, but it DOES NOT HAVE any larger social implications.


I guess I want a clear definition of "larger social implications" before I can move forward.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Charizard said:


> I guess I want a clear definition of "larger social implications" before I can move forward.


Larger social implication:
**** is a word generally used to put down women. A police officer in Canada (just to give you an example) stated that if women didn't "dress like ****s" they wouldn't get raped. It's a word used to shut women up, and to trivialize rape and sexual harassment.

Ni**er is a pejorative term used to describe black people during slavery and Jim Crow era. It dehumanized and objectified African Americans (still does).

Creep-shaming:
The word creep makes a quiet guy feel bad about himself.


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## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> A large chunk of it was a discussion on pop corn, so believe it 'cause most of it is off-topic.


Hey now. It may of been a bit off topic, but the popcorn conversation was beneficial to the thread, at least imo.  Who wants to read a thread full of nothing but gender wars?? Heehee, probably alot of you now that i think about it. But gender wars are stupid. And this thread is nothing but a gender war. I said it. Hate on me all you want, but i will still offer you all some friendly words and a beer no matter what you think of me. *cheers*


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## enzo (May 30, 2011)

"That guy looks like a creep. Stay away from him."


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Larger social implication:
> **** is a word generally used to put down women. A police officer in Canada (just to give you an example) stated that if women didn't "dress like ****s" they wouldn't get raped. It's a word used to shut women up, and to trivialize rape and sexual harassment.
> 
> Ni**er is a pejorative term used to describe black people during slavery and Jim Crow era. It dehumanized and objectified African Americans (still does).
> ...


Creep is a word generally used to put down men. An article writer on the interwebs (just to give you an example) stated that if a man is mislabeled as a creep, he shouldn't fight against the social ramifications- that just makes him a bigger creep. It's a word used to shut men up, and to mock or dehumanize them for being awkward.

The primary purpose of the word **** is not to trivialize rape. Just like the primary purpose of creep is not to deride well intentioned men. Both words have harmful fallout effects and we as a society would be better off without them in our casual speech.

The article makes the following statements:
• the harder they try to deny their creepiness, the creepier they appear
• the word may be occasionally used unfairly

This makes the term creep unique in the effects of it shaming when compared to other insults. Please take that into account before you dismiss it.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Charizard said:


> Creep is a word generally used to put down men. An article writer on the interwebs (just to give you an example) stated that if a man is mislabeled as a creep, he shouldn't fight against the social ramifications- that just makes him a bigger creep. It's a word used to shut men up, and to mock or dehumanize them for being awkward.


The word creep, if anything, "over humanizes" a person because the word implies other characteristics associated with people (who can cause harm) and not an object (that can be used).

It's used to mock men, certainly, but it by no means dehumanizes them.



> The primary purpose of the word **** is not to trivialize rape. Just like the primary purpose of creep is not to deride well intentioned men. Both words have harmful fallout effects and we as a society would be better off without them in our casual speech.


The original use of the word (not the synonym of prostitute, but to shame women who have sex or wear short skirts or kiss on the first date; take your pick) is interrelated with the trivialization of rape. The word creep doesn't have that same effect.



> The article makes the following statements:
> • the harder they try to deny their creepiness, the creepier they appear
> • the word may be occasionally used unfairly


What article are you talking about? Not that it truly matters since your points are senile, no offense.



> This makes the term creep unique in the effects of it shaming when compared to other insults. Please take that into account before you dismiss it.


The only unique effect of this word is that it makes quiet guys feel like ****. Is the word throw around inarticulately sometimes? Yes, but this doesn't cause any larger issues. As much as you'd like to argue that this word dehumanizes or is used to shut men up to the same level that **** or ni**er is, it's not.

This word has a unique effect on you, guys who are quiet, or guys who don't like boundaries. If you tell me that this word is causing violence against men or some sort of cause that affects men who aren't emotionally attached to this insult (because there are, and a few have posted here), I'll say hands down you're right. This word is problematic and we shouldn't use for that exact reason.

But it's not. You don't like the word. It makes you feel bad. Fine. You have every right to take it personally, but this isn't the issue for a lot of men, and this doesn't cause any larger social issues.



enzo said:


> "That guy looks like a creep. Stay away from him."


Yes, if you're in high school.


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> What article are you talking about? Not that it truly matters since your points are senile, no offense.


The article in your OP. I took the words from it directly. How derpy do you have to be to miss that? No offense.

Whatever, I'm done. You posted this thread under the guise of seeking other people's perspectives, but you were never after this at all. You're pretty clearly only interested in furthering an agenda and couldn't care less about bridge-building or perspective.

Also, "no offense" is pretty much always said in relation to something offensive. Don't even go there, it's just direspectful.

edit and stuff: I feel like maybe you aren't understanding my point because I am giving dots and not connecting them. I would like to do a better job of expressing myself just to make sure. The jezebel article that you linked (as well as you) acknowledged that sometimes people who are not creeps are labeled as creeps. It also points out that when you are labeled a creep, attempting to show that you aren't a creep just makes you look like a bigger creep. Put these two statements together and what do we have? A situation where you can land yourself with a negative label, despite having done nothing to earn said label, and then no way to clear your name. There is no institutionalized negativity here, but the negativity on an individual level is far and away higher than most other insults. It is a lot more complicated than "hurt feelings". I don't want to argue that creep-shaming is as bad as ****-shaming. I don't believe that it is. But it is clearly more harmful than your garden variety insult, and you have been brushing it off as not being so.


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## enzo (May 30, 2011)

Charizard said:


> You posted this thread under the guise of seeking other people's perspectives, but you were never after this at all. You're pretty clearly only interested in furthering an agenda and couldn't care less about bridge-building or perspective.


The end.


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## fingertips (Jan 11, 2009)

enzo said:


> The end.


i don't really agree with what charizard just said, but at least he put a bit of effort into his post.


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## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Stating that women's lives are easier than men is sexist. Saying that we can easily go find a Joe Schmo to take care of us and not work a day in our lives is sexist. Saying that feminism is ridiculous is putting all ideologies of equality down the drain and that _is_ sexist.


A lot of women have the OPTION to be a "homemaker" and men don't, that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that all women have that option but more women have that option than men.

You're also inadvertently saying that my life is easier because I'm a man, that I somehow have these magical unfair advantages over you and anything I've accomplished is invalidated because I'm a man and I have these outrageous advantages. Is that not sexist?

Feminism by DEFINITION is not ridiculous but modern feminism is warped, unproductive, and indeed ridiculous.



AllToAll said:


> Where did I claim to be a "militant" feminist? What would you know about feminism anyways? You're clueless.
> 
> Your sexism is condescending so I'll throw back right to you.


You didn't but all modern feminists are militant, they don't abide by feminism's definition of absolute equality. You're CLEARLY extremely biased towards women and so are all modern feminists at their core.



AllToAll said:


> Showing your tits might get a conventionally beautiful woman's foot in the door, but that won't get her a job.


Cool, I can't even get my foot in the door.



AllToAll said:


> The extra 25 cents, when added up does make a difference, but that's beside the point. There should be no discrepancy. Period.


Over a lifetime it may seem significant but that small discrepancy does nothing to make my life any easier on a daily basis. And btw there are comparable discrepancies in pay for ugly and short men too. Life isn't fair, deal with it.



AllToAll said:


> Ah, okay, then it's only beautiful women who can get anything they want. This, I guess, throws your senile argument of women's lives being easier out the window.
> Quoting Daniel Tosch. Wow. Couldn't get a Rush Limbaugh quote at least?


Yes, beautiful women get what they want. That's life, men will bend over backwards to help a beautiful woman with something. Unattractive women have it harder in life than beautiful women (almost as hard as men have it) but in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity, opportunity to be a real ****ing person with accomplishments and goals instead of being just the typical brain dead trophy wife.



AllToAll said:


> So easy. Let me go outside right now, find a man that makes over 50k a year, and all my problems will be solved. So how does this work, in your theory, if I'm not the conventionally beautiful woman? You know, the one who has to work, like Daniel Tosch said?


Like I said earlier, my next door neighbor is a **** who does nothing all day but talk on the phone, do coke, and sleep with other men behind her husband's back, she doesn't even take care of her kids. She looks cracked out and she's like a 4 at best but her husband makes around 4,500 dollars a month. Men who make good money will still date below their level especially if the man is unattractive, women who make good money will never date below their level.



AllToAll said:


> Having no interview skill, regardless of sex, won't get you a job. Stop being so bitter.


Sex appeal can GET you that interview (which you even admitted earlier) which is the most important part. Actually GETTING the interview is the hardest part of it for me.



AllToAll said:


> If you knew **** about history (you know, like women couldn't vote in the US), you'd realize that it is.


History means nothing when the present and future is your main concern, the first step towards true equality is leaving the past behind. You know nothing of their struggles anyway, you don't experience even a fraction of what they went through.



AllToAll said:


> Both groups have been historically put down, so yes. It's not backwards, it's comparable.


Many groups of people have been suppressed in the past but no word in the english language is comparable to the N word, evident by the fact that I'm not even ****ing typing the whole word.


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## 50piecesteve (Feb 28, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> Individuals don't all the same way, so no. But keep on perpetuating those ideals. That's very healthy.
> 
> This is a debate? You wailing sexist/ignorant remarks and me retorting with a sigh is a debate? Well then I'm so sorry I've failed in this poor-excuse of a debate, but I find it quite pointless to argue with an ignorant. You seem like a loss cause. I'm crossing my fingers that it's only due to your age and you'll grow out of it eventually. Your ignorance is most evident in your idea that a woman can just go on and quit her job, and like a magic trick get another one. All we have to do, even us uglies, is put on a tight skirt, walk into any old H&M, and get a nice job that doesn't pay enough to pay the rent. Riiight. And of course, all women can just sit on their *** when they're single, or single and raising a kid, and have, wait, who do they have to pay rent? Their nonexistent husband? Feel free to let me know how they can sit on their *** and have a roof over their heads. Not to mention more women (14.5%) live in poverty than men (12%).* It doesn't help that we get 75 cents to man's dollar.*
> 
> But please feel free to tell me how we women can magically get a job or sustain ourselves without one. I'd particularly like more info on the latter since I'd really like to not have to work while in school. Thanks!


you know why you get 75 cents to my dollar?? because in the unlikely event me and you are on a sinking boat, for some ****ed up reason i have to go down while you get rescued. I think thats worth a quarter in my opinion


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

I honestly can't believe this thread. Men can't complain about a word that's degrading to them because there are worse words targeted at other groups? And I certainly have never got an extra 25 cents because of my gender; I only got my last job because of connections, every other person in the office (except for the manager, who was a legit creep) was a woman.

But that's beside the point. This thread was (supposedly) about finding out how the word creep made us feel. Once it had been established that guys hate it and find that it's thrown around unfairly, you just got all defensive and tried to put us back in our place as evil men who hate women.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

Thread has officially gone off the rails. I'm sorry I brought that up in the first place. But anyway, let me just make my final point on the topic of 'larger implications' before the thread ends up getting locked:



Charizard said:


> It is a lot more complicated than "hurt feelings".


The word creep feeds into the narrative of "men = oppressors, women = victims", which is a broader societal bias. For those of us who aren't would-be criminals, this has the effect of having suspicion thrown on us unjustly and the assumption of guilt purely based on our gender. Some of this I suppose is inevitable given that people want to protect themselves from criminals, but it is also a deeply held bias which is used to judge men even in situations where there is no potential danger. That's why the word creep is so powerful: it is very hard to defend against it given the societal attitude where men are automatically judged with suspicion when it comes to dealings with women. It will most certainly destroy a man's reputation if he is falsely accused of harming a woman, far more so than if the roles are reversed, because of the societal assumption of guilt. So depending on the situation, creep-shaming can be just as damaging as ****-shaming. And anyway, outside the context of any of these more 'serious' situations, it's also not true that being called a creep is inherently less insulting than being called a ****.

My purpose for explaining this is not to rack up points to try to 'compete' with ****-shaming for the Victim of the Year Award. But I'm just trying to convey that this IS a concern that relates to a broader societal bias, and should therefore not be swept under the rug by saying 'it's not as bad as ****-shaming'. They're both troubling concerns and should both be addressed. I don't think that's unreasonable, so if we can all just agree to that, without any qualifiers, everyone will be happy.


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## bobby. (Mar 29, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> Thread has officially gone off the rails. I'm sorry I brought that up in the first place. But anyway, let me just make my final point on the topic of 'larger implications' before the thread ends up getting locked:
> 
> The word creep feeds into the narrative of "men = oppressors, women = victims", which is a broader societal bias. For those of us who aren't would-be criminals, this has the effect of having suspicion thrown on us unjustly and the assumption of guilt purely based on our gender. Some of this I suppose is inevitable given that people want to protect themselves from criminals, but it is also a deeply held bias which is used to judge men even in situations where there is no potential danger. That's why the word creep is so powerful: it is very hard to defend against it given the societal attitude where men are automatically judged with suspicion when it comes to dealings with women. It will most certainly destroy a man's reputation if he is falsely accused of harming a woman, far more so than if the roles are reversed, because of the societal assumption of guilt. So depending on the situation, creep-shaming can be just as damaging as ****-shaming. And anyway, outside the context of any of these more 'serious' situations, it's also not true that being called a creep is inherently less insulting than being called a ****.
> 
> My purpose for explaining this is not to rack up points to try to 'compete' with ****-shaming for the Victim of the Year Award. But I'm just trying to convey that this IS a concern that relates to a broader societal bias, and should therefore not be swept under the rug by saying 'it's not as bad as ****-shaming'. They're both troubling concerns and should both be addressed. I don't think that's unreasonable, so if we can all just agree to that, without any qualifiers, everyone will be happy.


^ This.

It's amazing the lack of sympathy women have for the sorts of men they find undesirable, especially given the common perception of women as being generally more empathetic. As a man, I have a lot of sympathy for physically unattractive women because I acknowledge how important looks are in attracting men, and I'm quite apologetic as I admit it. Women these days though seem to have convinced themselves that their sexual preferences are a perfect judge of male character; that if a man finds himself consistently rejected by women, then he deserves it; it's his fault; he's a bad person. And so they will refer to these men as 'creeps' without feeling the slightest bit of guilt.

In this devastatingly revealing video (



), observe how when the man is dressed in casual low-status clothing, the women rate him very poorly, and they do so in such a matter-of-fact, unapologetic way, as if to say "Ugh, that man is of far too low status to be worthy of a woman like me".

The broader problem here is the highly prevalent politically-correct idea that women are morally superior to men -- less shallow, more emotionally astute, more empathetic, etc. -- as well as the victim/oppressor bias that Ape In Space mentioned. It's quite depressing when you're the shy, sciencey type, to be consistently rejected in favour of the loutish, "confident" guy whilst being continuously told that because you're a man you must be a morally deficient, simple-minded, incompetent slob.


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> Thread has officially gone off the rails. I'm sorry I brought that up in the first place. But anyway, let me just make my final point on the topic of 'larger implications' before the thread ends up getting locked:
> 
> The word creep feeds into the narrative of "men = oppressors, women = victims", which is a broader societal bias. For those of us who aren't would-be criminals, this has the effect of having suspicion thrown on us unjustly and the assumption of guilt purely based on our gender. Some of this I suppose is inevitable given that people want to protect themselves from criminals, but it is also a deeply held bias which is used to judge men even in situations where there is no potential danger. That's why the word creep is so powerful: it is very hard to defend against it given the societal attitude where men are automatically judged with suspicion when it comes to dealings with women. It will most certainly destroy a man's reputation if he is falsely accused of harming a woman, far more so than if the roles are reversed, because of the societal assumption of guilt. So depending on the situation, creep-shaming can be just as damaging as ****-shaming. And anyway, outside the context of any of these more 'serious' situations, it's also not true that being called a creep is inherently less insulting than being called a ****.
> 
> My purpose for explaining this is not to rack up points to try to 'compete' with ****-shaming for the Victim of the Year Award. But I'm just trying to convey that this IS a concern that relates to a broader societal bias, and should therefore not be swept under the rug by saying 'it's not as bad as ****-shaming'. They're both troubling concerns and should both be addressed. I don't think that's unreasonable, so if we can all just agree to that, without any qualifiers, everyone will be happy.


Greatest post I've ever seen.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Paloma M said:


> You should see the way how men behave whenever they see someone attractive. I'm not saying I'm attractive because I know I'm not anything special, but I have had random men follow me around a store or can't keep their eyes off of me even though I caught them staring at me. Now those men have every right ti be labeled as creeps because really they do act like creeps around women. Not all of them but a lot of them do. It all depends on the way how a male behaves around a female. Giving a smile, striking up a friendly conversation, or giving a nice compliment is probably not creepy. But stalking a woman or staring at her like a vulture is another thing. Creepy.


You have to take into account that some of these guys might like you, but not know how to approach you. Therefore, he doesn't know how to act like a smooth player. It doesn't necessarily mean that he is a bad guy, but some guys who are labelled as "creepy" simply aren't; they're either geeky, shy, socially awkward, or all three.

Also, my face freezes when around a girl I find attractive. I remember one girl once gave me a warm look when she sat down at the table next to me and I was introduced to her by my friend. I sort of had a neutral expression while she smiled at me, because I was smiling on the inside (but so scared on the outside!), and she quickly turned her smile into a frown and that ended any possible conversation.

For guys like us, who either A.) don't receive much positive attention from women/girls, B.) are socially awkward, and C.) have been told _all our lives _practically, either through words or actions, that we can't have that girl, and you can understand why someone would appear desperate or needy.


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## TheTruthIsOutThere (Apr 10, 2012)

I don't ****ing care if some random girl calls me a creep. I'm certainly no sexual deviant if that's what they think. But I just brush it off.


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## falling down (Oct 17, 2011)

kennyc said:


> I do feel sorry for guys who get labelled "creepy". They are usually just unattractive and geeky guys who want to approach women like any other guy would. I doubt any women would label johnny depp as creepy if he was hitting on them even though he is a bit awkward and shy aswell.


:roll



Paloma M said:


> You should see the way how men behave whenever they see someone attractive. I'm not saying I'm attractive because I know I'm not anything special, but I have had random men follow me around a store or can't keep their eyes off of me even though I caught them staring at me. Now those men have every right ti be labeled as creeps because really they do act like creeps around women. Not all of them but a lot of them do. It all depends on the way how a male behaves around a female. Giving a smile, striking up a friendly conversation, or giving a nice compliment is probably not creepy. But stalking a woman or staring at her like a vulture is another thing. Creepy.





Paloma M said:


> I knew a guy was going to get offended from what I just posted. So you think following a woman around the store for more than an hour is okay? In your own litle weird world it is but to many of us girls, it's not. IT'S ILLEGAL TO BE STALKING SOMEONE.


How big of an ego does one have to have to assume that a guy who is in the same super market is stalking you and not doing shopping of his own? Just because you catch a guy looking at you doesn't mean he's been staring at you for 20 minutes straight. Even if a guy did follow you around a store for an hour, that's not stalking. If you think it is, you really don't know the true meaning behind the term. Now if this same guy followed you home and started making all this a regular habit, now you're looking at a stalker who is stalking. At what point in this world did just looking at someone make a guy a creeper, seems to me that there are far worse things that a guy can do to truly be labelled a creep.


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## Who (Jul 29, 2010)

Why just point out the hurtfulness of the word creep?
What about f*ggot, idiot, wh*re, sl*t, b*tch, ****, d*ckhead & etc. ?
No one's innocent.


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## Zypherus (Mar 30, 2012)

Insults mean nothing to me, I have no use for them and I am 100% immune.


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## Andre (Feb 27, 2004)

Who said:


> Why just point out the hurtfulness of the word creep?
> What about f*ggot, idiot, wh*re, sl*t, b*tch, ****, d*ckhead & etc. ?
> No one's innocent.


The point of this thread was to argue about how men should feel about an insult that relates to their sex only, although it's foolish and wrong to judge someone's feelings as wrong.

I think enough of us have said why we're offended to convince the opening poster.

The validity of men's rights, on the other hand, maybe that deserves a thread.


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## Who (Jul 29, 2010)

Rufus said:


> The point of this thread was to argue about how men should feel about an insult that relates to their sex only, although it's foolish and wrong to judge someone's feelings as wrong.
> 
> I think enough of us have said why we're offended to convince the opening poster.
> 
> The validity of men's rights, on the other hand, maybe that deserves a thread.


but "creep" isn't something that applies to men only. I'm sure those girls that are into self-mutilation, gore and horror or even "vampire lifestyle" get called creeps too, I know cause I do find them creepy tbh.

I think it's best to let OP define the point of if this thread instead of speaking on her behalf.


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## fredbloggs02 (Dec 14, 2009)

I don't think men are creeps for staring at women. Women don't interpose the centre of the cosmos objectively wherever they walk lol and they would be right to feel a certain disgust with men(in my opinion) who thrive on that sort of mistreatment. It's not like you could ever be friends with someone you deified to such an extent you never expressed yourself with them. I think a lot of women enjoy the attention but only from people they enjoy the attention from, you'll see them glow and walk very strangely under favourable conditions as a direct result of the attention haha. To brace a distance between something that doesn't attain to you inflames curiosity..everyone seems to accept that.. Are these gestures of pride and modesty or the truth? "Remember to bring your whip" is a healthy maxim to shrug it off with I think. I know all the secrets of the heart, that goes without saying hahahaha.


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## foe (Oct 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> The word creep, if anything, "over humanizes" a person because the word implies other characteristics associated with people (who can cause harm) and not an object (that can be used).
> 
> It's used to mock men, certainly, but it by no means dehumanizes them.


So being considered a potential rapist, molester sexual predator means you're an "over humanize" person? Because that's what creeps are associated with. Creep don't often geared towards quiet guys. Creep is often associated with sex predators.

No guy on Earth would want to be portrait as a creep.

Creep to men is the same as **** is to women. One vilifies a gender, while the other dehumanize.


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## foe (Oct 10, 2010)

Ape in space said:


> Thread has officially gone off the rails. I'm sorry I brought that up in the first place. But anyway, let me just make my final point on the topic of 'larger implications' before the thread ends up getting locked:
> 
> The word creep feeds into the narrative of "men = oppressors, women = victims", which is a broader societal bias. For those of us who aren't would-be criminals, this has the effect of having suspicion thrown on us unjustly and the assumption of guilt purely based on our gender. Some of this I suppose is inevitable given that people want to protect themselves from criminals, but it is also a deeply held bias which is used to judge men even in situations where there is no potential danger. That's why the word creep is so powerful: it is very hard to defend against it given the societal attitude where men are automatically judged with suspicion when it comes to dealings with women. It will most certainly destroy a man's reputation if he is falsely accused of harming a woman, far more so than if the roles are reversed, because of the societal assumption of guilt. So depending on the situation, creep-shaming can be just as damaging as ****-shaming. And anyway, outside the context of any of these more 'serious' situations, it's also not true that being called a creep is inherently less insulting than being called a ****.
> 
> My purpose for explaining this is not to rack up points to try to 'compete' with ****-shaming for the Victim of the Year Award. But I'm just trying to convey that this IS a concern that relates to a broader societal bias, and should therefore not be swept under the rug by saying 'it's not as bad as ****-shaming'. They're both troubling concerns and should both be addressed. I don't think that's unreasonable, so if we can all just agree to that, without any qualifiers, everyone will be happy.


Your posts always bring joy to my life. 

I don't want to know what SAS would be like without the Ape in Space.


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## squidd (Feb 10, 2012)

Sure the word gets tossed around, some times unnecessarily, sometimes it's very appropriate but so do a lot of words. Though this whole talk of "creep shaming" and "mens rights activists" just makes me want to say GROW THE **** UP.
Oh you go and talk to a girl that doesn't like you and the word creep gets thrown around, big ****ing deal. It comes from a place of feeling threatened, it's not nice but there is no real lasting harm.
The problem with "**** shaming" is that it is part of the rape culture we live in, it is a way of attacking womens sexuality. It has connections to a culture of blaming the victim.


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## The Sleeping Dragon (Sep 29, 2011)

I don't mind the word creep at all. Censorship is ridiculous, there will just be another word to replace 'creep'. What I do hate though is _when_ it's used. For instance. I get how a guy who keeps harassing a girl even after she said she isn't interested is considered a creep. But I don't get how guys who stare at a girl is being a creep. You can't help that. It's not a personality trait. We all stare at somebody sometime.

What also grinds my gear is that people don't nuance their stories. It's always: "all guys/girls". Why can't people realize ten ****ty people does not equal the entire population?


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

The Sleeping Dragon said:


> I don't mind the word creep at all. Censorship is ridiculous, there will just be another word to replace 'creep'. What I do hate though is _when_ it's used. For instance. I get how a guy who keeps harassing a girl even after she said she isn't interested is considered a creep. But I don't get how guys who stare at a girl is being a creep. You can't help that. It's not a personality trait. We all stare at somebody sometime.
> 
> What also grinds my gear is that people don't nuance their stories. It's always: "all guys/girls". Why can't people realize ten ****ty people does not equal the entire population?


Staring can actually be creepy. However, there are guys that don't stare and get called creepy.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Charizard said:


> The article in your OP. I took the words from it directly. How derpy do you have to be to miss that? No offense.
> 
> Whatever, I'm done. You posted this thread under the guise of seeking other people's perspectives, but you were never after this at all. You're pretty clearly only interested in furthering an agenda and couldn't care less about bridge-building or perspective.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I didn't read the last paragraph of your post, so if I repeat anything, my bad.

I understand your stance, but I don't agree with it. I think you're the one not getting my point. 
You paraphrased, not quoted, so I'm sooo sorry I missed that. 
And that's pretty much what I meant to do when I wrote "no offense." 
Bye



GD8 said:


> Ignorance is bliss.


Honestly, I didn't read sh*t. I left the thread for almost two days and lost interest, but you don't seem like the type of person who's open to new ideas, so I'm pretty sure you're simply repeating what you previously wrote. 
You're just a bitter kid, probably miles away from me, so I'm sorry if I can't take you very seriously. You can keep on keeping with your bigoted views, but I hope that if you ever go to college or pick up a book, you won't feel like too big of an *** when you look back at the way you used to think.
God bless, dawg.



50piecesteve said:


> you know why you get 75 cents to my dollar?? because in the unlikely event me and you are on a sinking boat, for some ****ed up reason i have to go down while you get rescued. I think thats worth a quarter in my opinion


:lol Riiigh. This ain't Titanic, hun.



foe said:


> So being considered a potential rapist, molester sexual predator means you're an "over humanize" person? Because that's what creeps are associated with. Creep don't often geared towards quiet guys. Creep is often associated with sex predators.
> 
> No guy on Earth would want to be portrait as a creep.
> 
> Creep to men is the same as **** is to women. One vilifies a gender, while the other dehumanize.


**** AND CREEP ARE NOT COMPARABLE. Read my other posts if you still care because I'm tired of repeating the same thing to deaf ears. Creep might be the male equivalent to a woman being called crazy, but not ****. 
I've been called crazy and weird, and while it does hurt, I'm not going on about a rant of how that's just like being called **** or n**gger because, as much as it hits a soft spot, I'm not victimizing myself. Get. Over. It. 
Most of those who are dead set on how horrific of an insult creep is, is because you think that's how you're portrayed (or are afraid of) to the world.

Insults hurt. **** yes. But creep is no different, no matter how much you want to "reclaim the word."


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## GD8 (May 7, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Honestly, I didn't read sh*t. I left the thread for almost two days and lost interest, but you don't seem like the type of person who's open to new ideas, so I'm pretty sure you're simply repeating what you previously wrote.
> You're just a bitter kid, probably miles away from me, so I'm sorry if I can't take you very seriously. You can keep on keeping with your bigoted views, but I hope that if you ever go to college or pick up a book, you won't feel like too big of an *** when you look back at the way you used to think.
> God bless, dawg.


Lol "ignorance is bliss", what an ironic thing to say considering you won't even read what I wrote


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

GD8 said:


> Lol "ignorance is bliss", what an ironic thing to say considering you won't even read what I wrote


Ah, but I did. Just not the last version. 
Plus, I've heard it all before.


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## foe (Oct 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> **** AND CREEP ARE NOT COMPARABLE. Read my other posts if you still care because I'm tired of repeating the same thing to deaf ears. Creep might be the male equivalent to a woman being called crazy, but not ****.
> I've been called crazy and weird, and while it does hurt, I'm not going on about a rant of how that's just like being called **** or n**gger because, as much as it hits a soft spot, I'm not victimizing myself. Get. Over. It.
> Most of those who are dead set on how horrific of an insult creep is, is because you think that's how you're portrayed (or are afraid of) to the world.
> 
> Insults hurt. **** yes. But creep is no different, no matter how much you want to "reclaim the word."


Crazy is NOT gender specific so it cannot be equivalent to creep, which is more associated with men who are sexual predators, stalkers, molesters. Women can be these things too but they're not associated with the creepy label because they're often portrait as sexual victims rather than as predators. It's the same way as men who likes to sleep around but they're not labeled as ****s.

By definition, creepy and **** might not be the same but they carry a similar social stigma that men and women would be ashamed of. You'd be crazy if you think men don't care if they're being labeled as a potential rapist or molester, because that's basically what creep is mostly directed towards. That's the ultimate insult for a man, it's like calling a white person a racist just because he/she is white. Even though a racist can be any person of any color or race, but the way it is, the term racist seems to be just for whites(who I'm sure are sick of hearing it).


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

foe said:


> Crazy is NOT gender specific so it cannot be equivalent to creep, which is more associated with men who are sexual predators, stalkers, molesters. Women are be these things but they're not associated with the creepy label because they're often portrait as sexual victims rather than the predator. It's the same way as men who likes to sleep around but they're not labeled as ****s.
> 
> By definition, creepy and **** might not be the same but they carry a similar social stigma that men and women would be ashamed of. You'd be crazy if you think men don't care if they're being labeled as a potential rapist or molester, because that's basically what creep is mostly directed towards.


Creep is not gender-specific either. I've witness women call other women creeps and I've done it myself.


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## squidlette (Jan 9, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> Creep is not gender-specific either. I've witness women call other women creeps and I've done it myself.


Heck I've been called creepy and a creep both today. Whee.


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## foe (Oct 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> Creep is not gender-specific either. I've witness women call other women creeps and I've done it myself.


But it is.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

foe said:


> But it is.


Because you said so. Okay. Gotcha.


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## foe (Oct 10, 2010)

foe said:


> ...
> 
> That's the ultimate insult for a man, it's like calling a white person a racist just because he/she is white. Even though a racist can be any person of any color or race, but the way it is, the term racist seems to be just for whites(who I'm sure are sick of hearing it).


I added a couple of sentences to my post.

Just because the dictionary says one thing doesn't mean it's how society sees it. Racist is a good example.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

foe said:


> I added a couple of sentences to my post.
> 
> Just because the dictionary says one thing doesn't mean it's how society sees it. Racist is a good example.


Obviously is not the biggest insult for a man if many users here have stated that the don't take the word any more personally than, say, a**hole.

You take the word personally because as a shy man, you fear you're called this often behind your back and judged by it. It's the worst insult one could use on YOU.


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## foe (Oct 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> Obviously is not the biggest insult for a man if many users here have stated that the don't take the word any more personally than, say, a**hole.
> 
> You take the word personally because as a shy man, you fear you're called this often behind your back and judged by it. It's the worst insult one could use on YOU.


I'd rather be called an a**hole than a creep. Usually a**holes are directed towards arrogant men who are most likely to be successful in the social world.

Creep isn't totally aimed at shy, quiet guys. As I mentioned earlier, it's mostly aimed at perverts, sexual predators. Shy guys don't want to be associated with it.


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## sansd (Mar 22, 2006)

AllToAll said:


> Creep is not gender-specific either. I've witness women call other women creeps and I've done it myself.


They also worry about being thought creepy, or at least I do. (I don't think they're _as_ likely to cause a strong "creep" reaction, though, because they're less threatening.)


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## squidlette (Jan 9, 2012)

carambola said:


> They also worry about being thought creepy, or at least I do.


Definitely.


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## alte (Sep 4, 2010)

Ape in space said:


> Instead of acknowledging that the word is actually hurtful, the article attempts to flip the situation on its head to fit the narrative of "men = oppressors, women = victims" and portrays men who complain about it as whiny babies who are bitter about not being allowed to rape women or something. The fact is, the word IS legitimately hurtful and most of the time is used for purely malicious purposes or for overly judgemental reasons. I doubt there is any guy on this forum who hasn't had this word used against them in situations where it was totally unwarranted. The fact that some guys are actually disrespectful to women doesn't mean that the rest of the guys who complain about this word are too.


You write so well. Completely agree.


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## sansd (Mar 22, 2006)

The Sleeping Dragon said:


> But I don't get how guys who stare at a girl is being a creep. You can't help that. It's not a personality trait. We all stare at somebody sometime.


If you continue to stare at someone for no apparent reason after they have obviously noticed you looking at them and they have not responded positively, I would expect them to be creeped out. I think when the person looks back at you, you should be able to realize what you're doing and direct your gaze elsewhere so as not to make them uncomfortable. This is what I do when someone in the direction I've been looking makes eye contact with me.

*"you" here is intended in the general "one" sense.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

foe said:


> I'd rather be called an a**hole than a creep. Usually a**holes are directed towards arrogant men who are most likely to be successful in the social world.
> 
> *Creep isn't totally aimed at shy, quiet guys. As I mentioned earlier, it's mostly aimed at perverts, sexual predators. Shy guys don't want to be associated with it.*


The reason why a shy guy might get called a creep is because he/she can't read him well, so he/she will throw the word. That doesn't mean the person will truly think this guy is a sexual predator. 
So the word applies sometimes. This isn't a reclaiming of the word type of thing.



fetisha said:


> omfg! thank you!


This isn't an argument about gender; it's about a word.


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## UgShy (Mar 6, 2012)

Never been called a creep. Is it really that common?


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## rapidfox1 (Sep 13, 2010)

Oh boy.


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## Col (Mar 18, 2012)

I only call someone a creep or creeper if he really is being a creep or creeper. Lol
I didn't know there were women who "abuse" the term.

For example, there is an older guy at my job who flirts with every single young girl. And one girl he was saying how he has seen her at her apartment... even when she doesn't have an apartment. And he claims it multiple times that she does and he's seen her.
Or another example, my friend had someone literally stalking us (We carpooled to school) and writing notes to her that he claimed "his friend" wrote them. Then he would follow my car home, staying a few cars behind but driving in the shoulder so he could see us.

But if it's just a quiet or awkward guy.. no that's not creepy. Not to me anyway.


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## WinterDave (Dec 5, 2003)

Jezebel.com is as vapid as it is dogmatic.I try to aim a little higher for my discourse than 'People Magazine' and Ellen Degeneres..I can't wait until that site has Rosie O'Donnell reciting 'Leaves of Grass'.... :fall


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## Rest or Real? (Apr 1, 2011)

Creep is a bad word? News to me.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

Supposedly it is the most offensive thing to say to a guy????? It doesn't seem that bad but hey I'm not a guy..


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## TheTruthIsOutThere (Apr 10, 2012)

LOLLZZZ STP SAYIN CREEP ITS OFFENSIVE LIKE OMG!!!


/whiny nice guys


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

IWantToDie said:


> LOLLZZZ STP SAYIN CREEP ITS OFFENSIVE LIKE OMG!!!
> 
> /whiny nice guys


To me this read like an excited dog barking.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

WinterDave said:


> Jezebel.com is as vapid as it is dogmatic.I try to aim a little higher for my discourse than 'People Magazine' and Ellen Degeneres..I can't wait until that site has Rosie O'Donnell reciting 'Leaves of Grass'.... :fall


For starters, jezzies don't like Rosie O'Donnell. Secondly, why vapid? His argument seems pretty thorough, generally they make good arguments on the image of women in the media, and keep men/women updated on the current debates on women's sexual reproductive health.

I don't see the vapidness of which you speak...


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Selbbin said:


> To me this read like an excited dog barking.


Dude is a creep. He should take his own nickname more seriously.

I hate anyone who calls me a name, so it really doesn't matter if someone thinks I'm a creep.


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## DiamondSky (Jan 17, 2012)

Col said:


> I only call someone a creep or creeper if he really is being a creep or creeper. Lol
> I didn't know there were women who "abuse" the term.
> 
> For example, there is an older guy at my job who flirts with every single young girl. And one girl he was saying how he has seen her at her apartment... even when she doesn't have an apartment. And he claims it multiple times that she does and he's seen her.
> ...


I agree with this! I've had a few unfortunate experiences with slimeball creeps and WISH I had said this to them when they made sexually harrassing remarks or acted WAY too aggressive when I clearly was not interested and uncomfortable.

These are the same sort of losers who wonder why they're single....:roll


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## Zima (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm not gonna lie, as a guy, I HATE that word. I feel like if I think a girl is cute, I'm immediately thought of as "creepy" just for looking at her for half a second - unless she happens to find me attractive too. 

Combine that with SA and constantly thinking people think ill of you, and you've got a recipe for never looking at anyone in public - which is somehow creepy in itself, because non-creepy people do things like make eye contact and smile. 

However, it's men that are the problem. A lot of guys do seriously creepy stuff I wouldn't think of doing. A lot of guys stare, stalk, etc. Many approach and just say WEIRD THINGS. Some are too touchy-feely. A LOT simply don't get the hint when a girl is not interested, and a LOT are looking to have sex with anything that moves and have no interest in anything else. I dislike most other guys, actually - they ARE f-ing creepy. 

The problem is, girls aren't always the best judges when it comes to who's innocent and who isn't. Someone who's more socially awkward is more likely to be thought of as creepy simple because of that, and that's not cool. Then there's guys like this one VP in a company I worked for - he's 40, with a family, and was extremely touchy-feely and inappropriate with the young girls at the office. If someone acted like that with my gf, I'd fight them. He was the definition of "creep" as far as I'm concerned. But they didn't seem to mind, because he was very confident.


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

The Jezebel article made me laugh. Typical Jezebel spin; they write as if the use of the term creep is an issue of women's rights. What I mean is, they're spinning the story of guys getting offended over the word creep as an issue of "typical male insensitivity" towards women's feelings. I hope that makes sense; I'm a little foggy today. How ridiculous, the term is offensive because of its meaning. Not because men hate hearing what women really think of them.

Jezebel puts that kind of spin on everything. Look at the Duke student who chronicled her sexual adventures with the sports teams (I believe it was their Lacrosse team). Jezebel emphasized the fact that she only intended to send it to her friends, and added that frat boys make the same lists. Compare to their treatment of Tucker Marx or the recent spreadsheet guy. The spreadsheet guy was labeled as a creep (by Jezebel), and all he did was have a spreadsheet with names and dates on them to remember the people he was dating from online.

Somehow that makes him a creep, but chronicling your sex adventures, complete with names and pictures, is not such a big deal. This is just one example. I used to be a reader of Jezebel's articles years back (only for like a couple months), but realized how biased they are. Their articles are intended to rustle your feminist jimmies, kind of like how Fox news tries to rustle conservatives' jimmies.

As for the whole MRA's creep-shaming campaign, I feel indifferent toward it. I mean, I guess the term is abused, but I don't see the big deal. It's not like "creep-shaming" is some widespread thing. It's a hurtful word. The ****walks by the way were silly, but that's a discussion for another day.


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## Lanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Women thinking they can independently opinionate on the internet and insult glorious men in the process?

This is really getting out of hand, guys. :no


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

Lanter said:


> Women thinking they can independently opinionate on the internet and insult glorious men in the process?
> 
> This is really getting out of hand, guys. :no


No one's trying to take away their right to use the term creep. And no one's arguing that they can't insult men. Don't make this a gender war issue, because its not. _No one_ said that women can't "insult glorious men." What goes through your head when you write these things? I know one thing, its not logic.


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## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

Robert Paulson said:


> No one's trying to take away their right to use the term creep. And no one's arguing that they can't insult men. Don't make this a gender war issue, because its not. _No one_ said that women can't "insult glorious men." What goes through your head when you write these things? I know one thing, its not logic.


This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic, but i feel the need to ask. Is your username taken from Fight Club? The guy with tits??? I'm pretty sure that was his name, but am not completely sure...


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

Yes, his name is Robert Paulson.


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## Nogy (Feb 13, 2011)

Robert Paulson said:


> Yes, his name is Robert Paulson.


:teeth
Thats why it was stuck in my head! "His name is Robert Paulson..." LOL


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Lanter said:


> *Women thinking they can independently opinionate on the internet and insult glorious men in the process?*
> 
> This is really getting out of hand, guys. :no


What?


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> What?


He was being sarcastic (or did you already know that?) :yes:afr:mum:idea:boogie:um


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Robert Paulson said:


> The Jezebel article made me laugh. Typical Jezebel spin; they write as if the use of the term creep is an issue of women's rights. What I mean is, they're spinning the story of guys getting offended over the word creep as an issue of "typical male insensitivity" towards women's feelings. I hope that makes sense; I'm a little foggy today. How ridiculous, the term is offensive because of its meaning. Not because men hate hearing what women really think of them.
> 
> Jezebel puts that kind of spin on everything. Look at the Duke student who chronicled her sexual adventures with the sports teams (I believe it was their Lacrosse team). Jezebel emphasized the fact that she only intended to send it to her friends, and added that frat boys make the same lists. Compare to their treatment of Tucker Marx or the recent spreadsheet guy. The spreadsheet guy was labeled as a creep (by Jezebel), and all he did was have a spreadsheet with names and dates on them to remember the people he was dating from online.
> 
> ...


The articles on that Duke student never defended her. Everyone (or at least the users) agreed that she was an ******* for doing that.

You also seem to forget that the person who wrote the article is a guy, so this isn't about "women's feelings."


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Robert Paulson said:


> He was being sarcastic (or did you already know that?) :yes:afr:mum:idea:boogie:um


I didn't detect the sarcasm. Thanks!


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

Zima said:


> I'm not gonna lie, as a guy, I HATE that word. I feel like if I think a girl is cute, I'm immediately thought of as "creepy" just for looking at her for half a second - unless she happens to find me attractive too.
> 
> Combine that with SA and constantly thinking people think ill of you, and you've got a recipe for never looking at anyone in public - which is somehow creepy in itself, because non-creepy people do things like make eye contact and smile.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm starting to hate guys that actually ARE creepy because they're responsible for making girls so paranoid.


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> I didn't detect the sarcasm. Thanks!


This is why we desperately need a sarcasm emoticon.


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> The articles on that Duke student never defended her. Everyone (or at least the users) agreed that she was an ******* for doing that.
> 
> You also seem to forget that the person who wrote the article is a guy, so this isn't about "women's feelings."


I never said they defended her. Just that the tone they took in giving the story was in _huge_ contrast to the way they treated the "creepy" spreadsheet guy. Anyone can read the two articles themselves and make their own call: search "jezebel duke powerpoint" and then "jezebel creepy spreadsheet guy." Anybody who isn't super-biased or whacked out on painkillers will see the difference in tone by the time they finish the first two sentences! (don't take that literally)

Second, about the fact that a guy wrote the article you linked; it says IN the article itself that it is an issue of men disregarding "women's feelings." You even quoted it yourself:



> This, of course, is why some guys hate the word so much; it forces men to reflect carefully about how they make women feel. No wonder then that so many guys are campaigning against "creep-shaming." After all, the sooner the term becomes socially unacceptable, the sooner men can get back to not having to think about women's boundaries.


I don't know if you're just "reading between the lines," or not reading lines at all, but its clear you're not reading all the lines. What does a guy having wrote the article have to do with anything?


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## RoflSaurus (Feb 25, 2012)

Robert Paulson said:


> AllToAll said:
> 
> 
> > The articles on that Duke student never defended her. Everyone (or at least the users) agreed that she was an ******* for doing that.
> ...


I'm sorry but that painkillers comment was a bit insensitive on a forum that aims to -help- mental illness. (and some people need painkillers - FOR PAIN.)

(And fortunately for me, I'm very well read and can determine the difference in tone in both articles just fine, thanks.)


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

Okay, I'll give you that one. I recant my statement attacking the purity and sanctity of glorious and inviolable painkillers, which I will never dishonor again. Instead, replace painkillers with "1st generation anti-histamines." I truly am sorry to any of you out there of painkiller descent.


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## RoflSaurus (Feb 25, 2012)

.........that was really unnecessary and insulting.


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## Rest or Real? (Apr 1, 2011)

Is this thread about gender logistics or shaming people that are perceived to be creeps or the machinations of painkiller use? Color me puzzled.

If it is relevant, I don't find any degradation in being specified as a creep by somebody unknown to me, and I honestly don't find any point of relevance in all the hullabaloo surrounding the proximity of the word.


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

You're right, I'm being insensitive. I cannot see how anyone could be offended that I alluded to a well-known effect of painkillers (loopiness- this is not the medical word), but if someone was offended I apologize. It was not my intent to offend anyone.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Robert Paulson said:


> I never said they defended her. Just that the tone they took in giving the story was in _huge_ contrast to the way they treated the "creepy" spreadsheet guy. Anyone can read the two articles themselves and make their own call: search "jezebel duke powerpoint" and then "jezebel creepy spreadsheet guy." Anybody who isn't super-biased or whacked out on painkillers will see the difference in tone by the time they finish the first two sentences! (don't take that literally)


Of course the tone is different. They're different topics written by different writers.



> Second, about the fact that a guy wrote the article you linked; it says IN the article itself that it is an issue of men disregarding "women's feelings." You even quoted it yourself:
> 
> I don't know if you're just "reading between the lines," or not reading lines at all, but its clear you're not reading all the lines. What does a guy having wrote the article have to do with anything?


No, it's about men feeling insulted by the word because of how it makes women feel, which is the writer's theory and not mine.
The whole article is about men and how they feel about the word. The relation to misogyny is not about "women's feelings."


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> Of course the tone is different. They're different topics written by different writers.


Sure, they're different topics, but there are similarities between the two stories. The bias in tone is applied universally across all of their articles, regardless of writer. Jezebel is a site with a very obvious agenda; I am reminded of the old anecdote about Prince and the camel at 3 am in Minnesota.



> No, it's about men feeling insulted by the word because of *how it makes women feel*, which is the writer's theory and not mine.
> The whole article is about men and how they feel about the word. The relation to misogyny is not about "women's feelings."


Yes, it is about women's feelings, and you said exactly the same thing. I went ahead and put what you said in bold. I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. The article says creep is offensive because :


> "to call him "creepy" is to name *how he makes women feel*." "This, of course, is why some guys hate the word so much; *it forces men to reflect carefully about how they make women feel.* "


The writer says that twice, as you can see from the quote. Seriously, I'm not seeing what you're disagreeing with here. From what I'm seeing, you interpreted the article the same way I did. Help me out if I'm wrong on that. My question to you is, do you agree with the theory? I disagree 100% with his whole theory on the offensiveness of certain words based on feminine or masculine origin.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Robert Paulson said:


> Sure, they're different topics, but there are similarities between the two stories. The bias in tone is applied universally across all of their articles, regardless of writer. Jezebel is a site with a very obvious agenda; I am reminded of the old anecdote about Prince and the camel at 3 am in Minnesota.


It's a feminist blog, so I'm definitely not arguing where their leaning towards, but that doesn't relate to your comparison of the Duke and creep articles. They have a feminist agenda, not a gender preference. If you know a thing or two about feminism you'd understand that we're not striving for female superiority/taking the side of guilty women (such as the Duke student).



> Yes, it is about women's feelings, and you said exactly the same thing. I went ahead and put what you said in bold. I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. The article says creep is offensive because :
> 
> The writer says that twice, as you can see from the quote. Seriously, I'm not seeing what you're disagreeing with here. From what I'm seeing, you interpreted the article the same way I did. Help me out if I'm wrong on that. My question to you is, do you agree with the theory? I disagree 100% with his whole theory on the offensiveness of certain words based on feminine or masculine origin.


The article is still aimed at men's emotions in regards to the word.


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> It's a feminist blog, so I'm definitely not arguing where their leaning towards, but that doesn't relate to your comparison of the Duke and creep articles. They have a feminist agenda, not a gender preference. If you know a thing or two about feminism you'd understand that we're not striving for female superiority/taking the side of guilty women (such as the Duke student).


Hey, if you don't agree, that's fine. I'll let other people read the two articles for themselves and be the judge on that. Just one thing though, I never said they took the Duke student's side. I know that feminism is about equality and not superiority or whatever other notions people might have. But Jezebel is on SRS level (assuming you're a redditor but if not you can just ignore that last part)



> The article is still aimed at men's emotions in regards to the word.


Yeah, the article explains men's strong dislike of the term, by explaining that it is a term that forces them to reflect on how they make women feel. I don't know how else to put it to you, you've quoted parts of the article that show you get it, but I'm starting to feel like you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

I apologize if this might be slightly off-topic but looking at the last few pages nothing new has been said about the whole creep thing, but what do you think of daily mail this article? I personally am downright disgusted that she is treated that way and it is a shame that women are attacking other women like this when they should be banding together. Its like the term ****, I'd estimate that 95% of the time someone says that word, its from one female to another. Its just like renowned feminist Milton Friedman once said, the greatest obstacle today in modern feminism are ugly and fat chicks being hostile to pretty females (i'm paraphrasing there)


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Robert Paulson said:


> Hey, if you don't agree, that's fine. I'll let other people read the two articles for themselves and be the judge on that. Just one thing though, I never said they took the Duke student's side. I know that feminism is about equality and not superiority or whatever other notions people might have. But Jezebel is on SRS level (assuming you're a redditor but if not you can just ignore that last part)
> 
> Yeah, the article explains men's strong dislike of the term, by explaining that it is a term that forces them to reflect on how they make women feel. I don't know how else to put it to you, you've quoted parts of the article that show you get it, but I'm starting to feel like you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.


Only the final paragraph talks about that. The other mentions of women are in regards to how certain words became insults (i.e. d**che bag or a****le).



> I apologize if this might be slightly off-topic but looking at the last few pages nothing new has been said about the whole creep thing, but what do you think of daily mail this article? I personally am downright disgusted that she is treated that way and it is a shame that women are attacking other women like this when they should be banding together. Its like the term ****, I'd estimate that 95% of the time someone says that word, its from one female to another. Its just like renowned feminist Milton Friedman once said, the greatest obstacle today in modern feminism are ugly and fat chicks being hostile to pretty females (i'm paraphrasing there)


I think she's smug and self-absorbed, and not because she's "had doors opened (and closed)" due to her appearance, but because she seems very pleased with herself. Perhaps that's why some women don't like her, although I don't argue that some women may have been jealous of her due to her looks. 
I pity the fact that she doesn't believe enough in herself insomuch to blame her looks on some of the opportunities she's had.

The saddest part I find about this article (although it's nothing new. Olivia Munn and Megan Fox have both said similar things), is the fact that some women are going to read this and say, "but she's not even pretty." Then laugh and go on about their day. This article perpetuates the idea that women are all vicious women going after each other based on their looks. That's how simplistic women are, that the only reason why one could have "the audacity" to dislike you is because you're a woman who happens to be attractive.

As someone who's had "really hot friends," if anything, I always enjoyed the perks they got. Like free bottles of wine.


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## mcdermnatr (Dec 16, 2013)

*creep shaming*

I always show up to these interesting threads a year late and a dollar short! :|

Late as I might be, I'll sound off. First off, I don't wish to get into the ****/creep equivalency debate. I do think that's comparing apples to oranges. I have no problem with the use of the word "creep" when it applies to creepy behavior. I believe individuals have the right to set the boundaries of their interaction with other people. I also believe a person has a right to have the opinion that some of those boundaries might very well be unreasonable and silly. If you feel you were unreasonably called a creep and you are certain your behavior wasn't creepy, then you have every right not to care if someone thinks you're a creep. Stare at someone for 4.5 seconds when their boundary is 3.5 seconds and they think or even call you a creep? You have every right not to care. Let me be perfectly clear. I am in no way advocating stalking, groping, fondling, touching inappropriately, etc. However, a woman's gut feeling isn't always right. If you're not invading her personal space (within reason) or saying inappropriate things, or not touching her but she's still creeped out, then you have every right not to care.

Ladies, I'm not denying you have a right to be creeped out and act appropriately for your safety. Guys, respect a person's reasonable boundaries, but if you're wrongly called a creep, try your hardest not to let it get under your skin.


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## To22 (Apr 6, 2012)

I can't take offence to something so superficial and subjective. If ever, I'd be irritated by their superior understanding of the word =P The word "creep" paints a much more severe picture in my mind than it does a lot of women it seems.


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