# God is for weak people



## sadeyes

In Einstein's letter:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49306421/ns/technology_and_science-science/

Einstein wrote God was "nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

I, too, use to think that religion / God was for weak people. This was during a time when my social anxiety was at it's worst.

Ironically, it was God who finally lifted the darkness which was my social anxiety, enabling me to see the light.

I now think a weak person is someone who believes they are fully and totally in control or trying to maintain control of everything. I believe a strong person understands they can't control everything.

I'd rather be weak with God, than strong without Him.


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## lilyamongthorns

That's amazing. God is good. 

I wouldn't have overcome most of my social anxiety and self-esteem issues without Him. He made me stronger.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

Even though I'm a 'Non-Believer', I have to agree with you.


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## pastels

loves this post


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## hoddesdon

The head of the Australian Christian Lobby is a former officer in the SAS, the elite unit in the Australian Army.


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## TobeyJuarez

sadeyes said:


> In Einstein's letter:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49306421/ns/technology_and_science-science/
> 
> Einstein wrote God was "nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
> 
> I, too, use to think that religion / God was for weak people. This was during a time when my social anxiety was at it's worst.
> 
> Ironically, it was God who finally lifted the darkness which was my social anxiety, enabling me to see the light.
> 
> I now think a weak person is someone who believes they are fully and totally in control or trying to maintain control of everything. I believe a strong person understands they can't control everything.
> 
> I'd rather be weak with God, than strong without Him.


I was the opposite


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## millenniumman75

Very interesting notion.


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## UltraShy

sadeyes said:


> I now think a weak person is someone who believes they are fully and totally in control or trying to maintain control of everything. I believe a strong person understands they can't control everything.


You appear to be making the false assumption that atheists believe they are in control. I've never believed in any form of god, yet I'm painfully aware of how little control I have. Recognizing there are a great many things you lack control over in no way requires one to believe there is a god that's in charge.

God can be a way for people to make sense of the world. It can obviously be comforting to believe in a god who does things for good reason, even if you haven't a clue what those reasons might be. That's preferred by many over the other the possibility of no god, leaving you in a world where s*** happens without reason & then you die. Religion provides a happy ending where you go to heaven. Does that sound at all like fairy tales that end with "...and they lived happily ever after"?


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## Raphael200

sadeyes said:


> In Einstein's letter:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49306421/ns/technology_and_science-science/
> 
> Einstein wrote God was "nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
> 
> I, too, use to think that religion / God was for weak people. This was during a time when my social anxiety was at it's worst.
> 
> Ironically, it was God who finally lifted the darkness which was my social anxiety, enabling me to see the light.
> 
> I now think a weak person is someone who believes they are fully and totally in control or trying to maintain control of everything. I believe a strong person understands they can't control everything.
> 
> I'd rather be weak with God, than strong without Him.


:clap:clap:clap:clap


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## Amerika

Amen. I agree!!


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## BobtheBest

Well, that's his opinion. I agree with you, OP. :clap


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## Mlochail

I'm agnostic and when I'm at my worst I'll just go all out at God. I plead Him to help me at the bottom of my heart. To fill me with spiritual wisdom and divine love. 

I know He's the only one who'll ever really give a damn. And thus I shall forever be Him loyal, even when in doubt of His very existence.

Sure enough, it works.


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## simian4455

Moasim said:


> I'm agnostic and when I'm at my worst I'll just go all out at God. I plead Him to help me at the bottom of my heart. To fill me with spiritual wisdom and divine love.
> 
> I know He's the only one who'll ever really give a damn. And thus I shall forever be Him loyal, even when in doubt of His very existence.
> 
> Sure enough, it works.


Try calling out to another God and see if it works. After that, try calling out to somebody else and so forth ...


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## bsd3355

My mom's ex boyfriend said that to me once when i was a teenager watching an evangelical on tv. at the time it pissed me off he would say that, but i get it now


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## AwkBoy

I believe in a more deistic go than the christian one, but I'm glad that by connecting to the, "source", that binds us all you, and others, were able to find some solace.


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## Mlochail

simian4455 said:


> Try calling out to another God and see if it works. After that, try calling out to somebody else and so forth ...


My perception of God is not what the Bible, Koran or any other book says. I do not believe in a Biblical God. I believe in God as an influence whence we all came from and originally are. It's not magic, it's not Heaven and Hell. It's just what it is, like the universe is what it is.

In that sense I'm as much God as you are, as God itself is. Thus to me, there's no need for an other God to calll out to.


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## HilarityEnsues

I'd have to agree with Einstein. I've never believed in God or anything religious/spiritual. I tend to see religion as a direct result to human's fear of the unknown.


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## simian4455

Moasim said:


> My perception of God is not what the Bible, Koran or any other book says. I do not believe in a Biblical God. I believe in God as an influence whence we all came from and originally are. It's not magic, it's not Heaven and Hell. It's just what it is, like the universe is what it is.
> 
> In that sense I'm as much God as you are, as God itself is. Thus to me, there's no need for an other God to calll out to.


That sounds like you are just consoling yourself or calling out to yourself. Seriously, it sounds like everything is in your mind. But if it makes you feel better, more power to you. Einstein was right.


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## Mlochail

simian4455 said:


> That sounds like you are just consoling yourself or calling out to yourself. Seriously, it sounds like everything is in your mind. But if it makes you feel better, more power to you. Einstein was right.


Perhaps one day


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## The Sorrow

Everyone is weak! Everyone.


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## DiceOfDiscord

UltraShy said:


> You appear to be making the false assumption that atheists believe they are in control. I've never believed in any form of god, yet I'm painfully aware of how little control I have. Recognizing there are a great many things you lack control over in no way requires one to believe there is a god that's in charge.
> 
> God can be a way for people to make sense of the world. It can obviously be comforting to believe in a god who does things for good reason, even if you haven't a clue what those reasons might be. That's preferred by many over the other the possibility of no god, leaving you in a world where s*** happens without reason & then you die. Religion provides a happy ending where you go to heaven. Does that sound at all like fairy tales that end with "...and they lived happily ever after"?


I respectfully agree with the first part, but not the second. You're making it out to be like believing in god is a real fluffy thing. It's not.


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## Patriot

Horray for the placebo effect!


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## Dark Alchemist

UltraShy said:


> You appear to be making the false assumption that atheists believe they are in control. I've never believed in any form of god, yet I'm painfully aware of how little control I have. Recognizing there are a great many things you lack control over in no way requires one to believe there is a god that's in charge.
> 
> God can be a way for people to make sense of the world. It can obviously be comforting to believe in a god who does things for good reason, even if you haven't a clue what those reasons might be. That's preferred by many over the other the possibility of no god, leaving you in a world where s*** happens without reason & then you die. Religion provides a happy ending where you go to heaven. Does that sound at all like fairy tales that end with "...and they lived happily ever after"?


:agree


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## fredbloggs02

The only people I really relate to have been possessed of a sense of what I consider the essence of the divine, those by today's standards(which we can all confidently shoot through in a thousand years) on the verge of Schizophrenia. None of them lived simply, most either committed suicide, died horribly, or "lost their minds"...They say the poet points the way lol.

I accept the points people before me have made, the sense of being out of control within a universe guided by only apparent intentionality and artificial order yet still in another's hands sounds comfortable; whether they divine the truth of the matter with those thoughts I don't know... I'd urge people without condescension or presumption to question themselves where a cosmos with absolute laws that to all appearances harbours only human order came from? To me, that is still not necessarily the end. Are human beings capable of knowing what a world without a human interpretation would look like? On a deeper level, I believe people without that sense for the universal exist without that weight, perhaps the heaviest weight human beings are capable of bearing.


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## Albert11

*This is a beautiful testimony and I agree that God is our strength.* 
My life was in shambles for 28 years before I excepted Christ. He didn't magically fix everything, but His Word always gave me proper direction and hope. I must confess that I have experienced many Miracles in my walk with Christ and no one can ever dismiss it or take that away from me. He was the foundation that was missing in my life for which I am forever grateful.


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## niacin

Hey, having experience with belief and non-belief, I can tell you that I'm still the same person, I'm still going to die, and I'm still scared. If prayer gives me strength, then why not?


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## Gurosan

Let's assume god is real and you can belive in him/her/it {it's a god ffs} and religion is just brainwash to control and robb lots of these weak people{which is not cool}

So god exists and weak people seek shelter in belief. What the F/UCK is wrong with that?
Not like they have much other options like aticful of cash that can fix they're problems, nor sinking they're sorrow in alcohol would help. God is shelter for every one and for weak person it may be only thing they have left when drenching and freezing out on the streets.

Either one belives in god or some higher power is not what should be judged by other person. If beliving in utter nonsense can help person keep his/her mentality and find hope in it when all other chances has failed him/her, then what the hell is wrong with that?

I'm an atheist, but i've been blessed with open mind which gives me ability to see things from more than one point of view which is case for narrow minded sheep people.

But that's just my view on this... take it or leave it...


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## cloister2

I can't believe there is nothing out there because its clear to me there is a spirit world/something behind the scenes. I can't understand people who think there's nothing but cold hard science. I just don't think God will interfere in human life every day.


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## simian4455

Gurosan said:


> Let's assume god is real and you can belive in him/her/it {it's a god ffs} and religion is just brainwash to control and robb lots of these weak people{which is not cool}
> 
> So go exists and weak people seek shelter in belief. What the F/UCK is wrong with that?
> Not like they have much other options like aticful of cash that can fix they're problems, nor sinking they're sorrow in alcohol would help. God is shelter for every one and for weak person it may be only thing they have left when drenching and freezing out on the streets.
> 
> Either one belives in god or some higher power is not what should be judged by other person. If beliving in utter nonsense can help person keep his mentality and find hope in i,t when all other chance has failed him, then what the hell is wrong with that?
> 
> I'm an atheist, but i've been blessed with open mind and ability to understand peoples actions instead just being narrow minded and just mocking people, especiall weak p[eole? What have they done to you? Begged for a coin? Is that a deathsentence worth crime or something? They just try to get by and if god can help to get on with the struggle you should effin support them even if you think god is utter bullsh1t...
> 
> But that's just my view on this... take it or leave it...


There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Unless they start spewing that we will go to hell if we do not believe etc.


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## Daniel C

I'm weak but I don't believe in God. Hypothesis invalidate.


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## door1

*your in a bad place*



The Sorrow said:


> Everyone is weak! Everyone.


 The existance of God is not the issue, however, to love anyone, something more than ones self is a gift and a strenghth. To devote yourself to values which bring you harmony with life can only be a brave and worthy mind set. To live a life along the rules of almost all religions takes great dedication whether you belief right or wrong. 
I confess there is much hipocracy amongst all religion and over the years has been used to condon may evil acts. I can only say from my experience I have many that believe in God strong and intrisically good people. No one person can survive this life alone and say they have really lived. You are entitled to your opinion albeit sweeping. I do know we all change with time and experiences. Good luck in life.


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## door1

*HI*



DiceOfDiscord said:


> I respectfully agree with the first part, but not the second. You're making it out to be like believing in god is a real fluffy thing. It's not.


I think therefore I am. How do you define a belief. Well you can only have faith..... Blind faith ? ...No. I am not saying you have to believe in God to be happy and fulfilled, but question your belief system first before you live one minute more. The most valuable gift you can give to anyone, anything is your time. Suppose in short just because we cannot see something, touch it to accept it's existace does NOT mean it's not real.


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## harrison

fredbloggs02 said:


> The only people I really relate to have been possessed of a sense of what I consider the essence of the divine, those by today's standards(which we can all confidently shoot through in a thousand years) on the verge of Schizophrenia. None of them lived simply, most either committed suicide, died horribly, or "lost their minds"...They say the poet points the way lol.
> 
> I accept the points people before me have made, the sense of being out of control within a universe guided by only apparent intentionality and artificial order yet still in another's hands sounds comfortable; whether they divine the truth of the matter with those thoughts I don't know... I'd urge people without condescension or presumption to question themselves where a cosmos with absolute laws that to all appearances harbours only human order came from? To me, that is still not necessarily the end. Are human beings capable of knowing what a world without a human interpretation would look like? On a deeper level, I believe people without that sense for the universal exist without that weight, perhaps the heaviest weight human beings are capable of bearing.


Beautifully put. I really wish I could still express myself like that, although I'm not sure I ever could.


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## olschool

HilarityEnsues said:


> I'd have to agree with Einstein. I've never believed in God or anything religious/spiritual. I tend to see religion as a direct result to human's fear of the unknown.


i agree


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## harrison

To say that "God" is for weak people is unintelligent. It's also probably slightly offensive, although not to me of course as I don't believe in God in any conventional form. I was raised in a very silly Christian faith which was so limiting that if you had even the vaguest sense of curiosity, you would look elsewhere for answers. I chose to look into some Eastern philosophies and although they, of course, didn't give me many answers either, I realised that maybe it was expecting to find something that was the problem, or at least part of it.


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## marthatav

sadeyes said:


> In Einstein's letter:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49306421/ns/technology_and_science-science/
> 
> Einstein wrote God was "nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
> 
> I, too, use to think that religion / God was for weak people. This was during a time when my social anxiety was at it's worst.
> 
> Ironically, it was God who finally lifted the darkness which was my social anxiety, enabling me to see the light.
> 
> I now think a weak person is someone who believes they are fully and totally in control or trying to maintain control of everything. I believe a strong person understands they can't control everything.
> 
> I'd rather be weak with God, than strong without Him.


Amen! Couldn't have said it better!


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## Dark Alchemist

don36 said:


> To say that "God" is for weak people is unintelligent. It's also probably slightly offensive, although not to me of course as I don't believe in God in any conventional form. I was raised in a very silly Christian faith which was so limiting that if you had even the vaguest sense of curiosity, you would look elsewhere for answers. I chose to look into some Eastern philosophies and although they, of course, didn't give me many answers either, I realised that maybe it was expecting to find something that was the problem, or at least part of it.


Its not an unintelligent statement, in fact it makes a ton of sense. But of course people who cling to deities will take offense (what else is new...)


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## Smoothie

I disagree with the fact God is for the weak.I'm atheist,and I came across a lot of strong people who believe in God,as long as one is no obssessed with it,religion and spirituality can be great.


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## whattothink

The problem is that we are incapable of knowing anything outside of our universe. So, we can make assumptions about what is probable or desirable, but neither are ultimately correct nor incorrect. It simply isn't possible to use the rules of science and math to explain what is outside science and math. There are some eastern traditions which claim consciousness itself is the creator of reality and that through liberation from human senses one's individual consciousness can come into communion with a higher, universal consciousness which is outside interpretation and indeed comprehension. This implies that consciousness is beyond physical, sensory awareness, thus outside the mathematical framework of our universe. But, to be incomprehensible is beyond comprehension.. it doesn't make any sense, so, that could possibly be the source for the unanswerable question of existence.


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## harrison

The statement sounds like something I would say when I am in one of my many angry moods - it sounds like a simplistic, school-yard sort of statement that hasn't really been thought through. It seems to be based on the premise that everyone that believes in a God, whatever the hell that means, is counting on him/her/it to save them from something like a hell or even just from death. But what if we don't believe in a deity at all and are just curious as to the possibilty of something outside what we are aware of or what we can conceive? Does that still make us "weak"? 

Sounds like kids-stuff to me.


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## Albert11

don36 said:


> The statement sounds like something I would say when I am in one of my many angry moods - it sounds like a simplistic, school-yard sort of statement that hasn't really been thought through. It seems to be based on the premise that everyone that believes in a God, whatever the hell that means, is counting on him/her/it to save them from something like a hell or even just from death. But what if we don't believe in a deity at all and are just curious as to the possibilty of something outside what we are aware of or what we can conceive? Does that still make us "weak"?
> 
> Sounds like kids-stuff to me.


Why must there be an insult? This persons experience is his personal experience. Calling it 'school yard' or 'kid stuff'sounds pretty condescending----and when posting in *this particular forum* one usually looks for support, not insults and haughty deliberation. Does this make you weak? I think you've answered your own question.


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## Killer2121

Dark Alchemist said:


> Its not an unintelligent statement, in fact it makes a ton of sense. But of course people who cling to deities will take offense (what else is new...)


Atheist = smarter

Strong logic in this post.


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## Albert11

Killer2121 said:


> Atheist = smarter
> 
> Strong logic in this post.


Is this the spiritual support forum or the bash beleivers forum?


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## meeps

Albert11 said:


> Is this the spiritual support forum or the bash beleivers forum?


Weren't you the one who went into that polytheist thread in the support section a while back and crapped all over their beliefs, simple because you don't agree with them? You're not really one to talk.

edit: typed pantheist instead of polytheist. herp derp


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## Killer2121

Albert11 said:


> Is this the spiritual support forum or the bash beleivers forum?


That was a sarcastic reply to Alchemists post, next time read.

My avatar is a picture of Mary and baby Jesus, I would be the last one to be bashing Christians.


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## Adversary

I agree in the sense that believing in god is essentially giving up responsibility to an imaginary entity, but we all show signs of weakness to a certain degree.


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## StayingMotivated

here we go LOLLLLLLLLLL


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## StayingMotivated

people that are afraid of other people seems REAL weak to me. Didn't we evolve to be social creatures? How long would you last in a hunter and gather society by yourself in the corner? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM that's some weak sauce right there.


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## fredbloggs02

don36 said:


> To say that "God" is for weak people is unintelligent. It's also probably slightly offensive, although not to me of course as I don't believe in God in any conventional form. I was raised in a very silly Christian faith which was so limiting that if you had even the vaguest sense of curiosity, you would look elsewhere for answers. I chose to look into some Eastern philosophies and although they, of course, didn't give me many answers either, I realised that maybe it was expecting to find something that was the problem, or at least part of it.


Ok, that is interesting... Tell me all about the nothing you were looking for! in words of less than one sentence! go!


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## simian4455

Adversary said:


> I agree in the sense that believing in god is essentially giving up responsibility to an imaginary entity


That is a great way to put it.


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## fredbloggs02

Dark Alchemist said:


> Its not an unintelligent statement, in fact it makes a ton of sense. But of course people who cling to deities will take offense (what else is new...)


Hamann said: "I look upon logical proofs the way a well-bred girl looks upon a love letter." lol...funny guy.

What are atheists to do with logic or their lives to feel these Godless, despairing, birth-pangs? I feel that position may only apply to the majority of religious people, in whom I see every reason to be opposed. I feel to contradict people through any social dialectic will overturn a reserved social conviction: "your being offends me until you give up your belief and listen to me or push me away"...perhaps guiding the individual into some unfortunate atheistic Kierkegaardian angst; but that isn't I feel to be without the heritage of God, or to confront life head on....which is why Kierkegaard today still stings people with his tail, and everyone assumes that God's work. I reckon the concept of a universe out of control is to us foremost existential angst- the laws of the heavens: God's immutable law brought into focus(where most oppose God today) which to me assumes an artificially coloured understanding of the idea. God has become all too human, to some purpose no doubt.

Any true sense of a God or the transcendent should hold despite social pedantry: a heavier position the majority of born again atheists representative of the rumblings of scientific positivism never experience. We may attest to our atheism: as we begin or are in time lead beneath the earth of our local church garden... That isn't the heaviest burden people in this universe have experienced: God in my sense should reach deeper.


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## pythonesque

Okay, wut. Do you atheists not concede that the existence of god is non-falsifiable and that atheism is a leap of faith as well? (Albeit perhaps a smaller leap of faith than deism.)

And what about all the religious martyrs throughout history who have died for their beliefs? Perhaps they would seem delusional to many non-religious people, but you can't say that didn't take courage. I, as an atheist, often feel that there's no conviction which I hold to with such certainty that I would be willing to die for it. And knowing that fact makes me kind of sad. As if I'm too cynical, too jaded; that I would sooner renounce everything I believed to be true than give up this empty husk of a life merely because I'm afraid of the unknown that lurks on the other side.

Oh well. That's my (perhaps overly Romanticised) view of religion. Outside looking in, etc. Plus, one of my idols, the great Samuel Johnson, was a fervently religious, god-fearing basket-case. Take from that what you will.


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## F1X3R

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."


- Albert Einstein


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## fredbloggs02

F1X3R said:


> "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
> *s
> 
> - Albert Einstein


Now look what you've done.. pathetic atheists!*roars* You've made Einstein turn in his grave one more time! Ten seconds to scatter before his enormously insightful mind! lol. like ants beneath it's notice!


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## Adversary

F1X3R said:


> "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
> 
> - Albert Einstein


Shameless quote mining. What's funny is that this was a case of Einstein viewing bigotry of non-belief to be just as ridiculous as bigotry for belief. He would be just as angry if he was quoted for supporting gods existence. This was not an attack on atheism at all if that's what you think.


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## chantellabella

I understand *my definition* of weak and how *I* interpret the statement "God is for weak people."

I am weak in that I have a very hard time controlling my emotions and actions. I am quick to anger, slow to forgiveness.

I struggle with many habits due to my hurts and hangups.

*I personally *need help to overcome my hurts, habits and hangups, and* I choose* to allow God to be my helper.

So thank you, OP for bringing up this thread. It reminded me of my beliefs and helped me stay strong in my weakness.

_______________________

Note to anyone wishing to respond to me rather than to the OP and thread discussion.....

I understand that *others may find help in other ways.* I don't judge their ways unless their way is to attack me.

However, I also *do not invite* others to tell me I should feel, believe, do, etc. I have my beliefs..... period. I don't shove them on you. You don't shove yours on me.

What the rest of you do, think, say is irrelevant to me. *My belief only affects me. *

In other words, back off! I am not interested in attempts to sway, insult, offend or tell *me* that my God doesn't exist. If you personally attack me, I will report you.

I believe the OP was brave to post this in the *spiritual support* section.

I am giving the OP *spiritual support* in this *spiritual support* thread.

I am merely posting a response that is important for me to say to the OP. It doesn't concern anyone else, but me and the OP.


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## Albert11

chantellabella said:


> I understand *my definition* of weak and how *I* interpret the statement "God is for weak people."
> 
> I am weak in that I have a very hard time controlling my emotions and actions. I am quick to anger, slow to forgiveness.
> 
> I struggle with many habits due to my hurts and hangups.
> 
> *I personally *need help to overcome my hurts, habits and hangups, and* I choose* to allow God to be my helper.
> 
> So thank you, OP for bringing up this thread. It reminded me of my beliefs and helped me stay strong in my weakness.
> 
> _______________________
> 
> Note to anyone wishing to respond to me rather than to the OP and thread discussion.....
> 
> I understand that *others may find help in other ways.* I don't judge their ways unless their way is to attack me.
> 
> However, I also *do not invite* others to tell me I should feel, believe, do, etc. I have my beliefs..... period. I don't shove them on you. You don't shove yours on me.
> 
> What the rest of you do, think, say is irrelevant to me. *My belief only affects me. *
> 
> In other words, back off! I am not interested in attempts to sway, insult, offend or tell *me* that my God doesn't exist. If you personally attack me, I will report you.
> 
> I believe the OP was brave to post this in the *spiritual support* section.
> 
> I am giving the OP *spiritual support* in this *spiritual support* thread.
> 
> I am merely posting a response that is important for me to say to the OP. It doesn't concern anyone else, but me and the OP.


Love this! Hugs to you my friend


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## Dark Alchemist

Killer2121 said:


> My avatar is a picture of Mary and baby Jesus, I would be the last one to be bashing Christians.


Aw, no more Dan Silverman rage face?


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## Dark Alchemist

pythonesque said:


> Okay, wut. Do you atheists not concede that the existence of god is non-falsifiable and that atheism is a leap of faith as well? (Albeit perhaps a smaller leap of faith than deism.)


A leap of faith in what?



> And what about all the religious martyrs throughout history who have died for their beliefs? Perhaps they would seem delusional to many non-religious people, but you can't say that didn't take courage.


The suicide bombers who blow themselves up believing they will get 72 virgins in paradise, the Inca who sacrificed children on mountaintops to the gods, the torture and execution of accused witches and scientists justified by faith - would you call that "courageous"?


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## Killer2121

Dark Alchemist said:


> Aw, no more Dan Silverman rage face?


I figured that if people feel the need to show their atheism in their sigs, why can't I show my faith in my avatar? :S


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## Dark Alchemist

Killer2121 said:


> I figured that if people feel the need to show their atheism in their sigs, why can't I show my faith in my avatar? :S


I always thought it was funny you had an atheist icon in your avatar despite the fact that you're obviously not one yourself.


----------



## FireIsTheCleanser

Killer2121 said:


> I figured that if people feel the need to show their atheism in their sigs, why can't I show my faith in my avatar? :S


I like your avatar now, but every time I see your username I still think of the rage face first.


----------



## Killer2121

Dark Alchemist said:


> I always thought it was funny you had an atheist icon in your avatar despite the fact that you're obviously not one yourself.


I just like that meme and the interview lol.. "Tide goes in, tide goes out"..



FireIsTheCleanser said:


> I like your avatar now, but every time I see your username I still think of the rage face first.


You are cute.


----------



## FireIsTheCleanser

Killer2121 said:


> You are cute.


Er... thank you? :um


----------



## F1X3R

Adversary said:


> Shameless quote mining. What's funny is that this was a case of Einstein viewing bigotry of non-belief to be just as ridiculous as bigotry for belief. He would be just as angry if he was quoted for supporting gods existence. This was not an attack on atheism at all if that's what you think.


I didn't say anything, how do you know what I meant? I guess you are just living up to your user name.


----------



## Adversary

F1X3R said:


> I didn't say anything, how do you know what I meant? I guess you are just living up to your user name.


Where did I suggest that I knew what you meant? I clearly said "if that's what you think" which is me admitting that I don't really know what you were trying to say by posting that quote. Its just that Christian apologist use this same quote all the time to support their views.


----------



## Metus

Adversary said:


> I agree in the sense that believing in god is essentially giving up responsibility to an imaginary entity, but we all show signs of weakness to a certain degree.


That's not true. Christian theology teaches us to take full responsibility for our actions and what we can control. It also teaches us to not dwell on what we can't. It's a good mindset for anyone to have, believers or non-believers.

Some may take it too far and may expect God to have all control over their lives. Even the Old Testament dispels that starting with Genesis.

To say that it is an imaginary entity shows a lack of empathy. Whether or not you believe the entity is real or not does not make it any less real to a believer. You don't exactly win over anyone by telling them that their culture and beliefs are imaginary or "ignorant and immature"(as said several times in this thread). In some parts of the world, it's an invitation to hostility. It shows a great deal of intolerance and close-mindedness.


----------



## Metus

Mimic said:


> As for your second paragraph, you shouldn't feel bad about not wanting to martyr yourself. Who do you think wins in the end? The people who die young for a belief that is probably false, or the people who continue to live, have children, and spread their genes to future generations?


People back in those days did have children young.

What is the sense of having future generations live under a way of life that isn't one you want for them? What if it's a horrible way of life or that of servitude? Your philosophy is that there is nothing worth risking your life for. That it's better to have your children live in chains than to fight for the way of life you want for yourself or your people. The way of life that they deserve.

There's a word for what you describe and it's not very flattering.

I for one believe that there are things worth fighting and dying for. One of those is the right to worship(or not) as I see fit.


----------



## Adversary

Metus said:


> That's not true. Christian theology teaches us to take full responsibility for our actions and what we can control. It also teaches us to not dwell on what we can't. It's a good mindset for anyone to have, believers or non-believers.
> 
> Some may take it too far and may expect God to have all control over their lives. Even the Old Testament dispels that starting with Genesis.
> 
> To say that it is an imaginary entity shows a lack of empathy. Whether or not you believe the entity is real or not does not make it any less real to a believer. You don't exactly win over anyone by telling them that their culture and beliefs are imaginary or "ignorant and immature"(as said several times in this thread). In some parts of the world, it's an invitation to hostility. It shows a great deal of intolerance and close-mindedness.


Belief in God in general is a lack of responsibility. Regardless of what the religion teaches, you are still being loyal to something. I am using the word responsibility in its alternate meaning as a calling or a commitment.

I did not say anyone's culture or beliefs are imaginary. See that's the main problem. Many people with a belief in god automatically perceive anything even slightly considering god's non existance to be an attack on all their beliefs or culture. I defined god as an imaginary entity because its something never before wholly perceived in reality. This is based on the fact that there is no empirical evidence for god. I am well aware that many believers view it as a attack on their life, but that's actually a sign of THEM being intolerant and close-minded. Not the other way around.


----------



## Olesya

I liked one of Freud's quote that basically said people believe in God because they aren't ready yet to understand that there is no mighty being to protect them and help them. For the time being, people need to believe in this entity called God in order to live and feel somewhat secure.


----------



## Metus

Adversary said:


> Belief in God in general is a lack of responsibility. Regardless of what the religion teaches, you are still being loyal to something. I am using the word responsibility in its alternate meaning as a calling or a commitment.
> 
> I did not say anyone's culture or beliefs are imaginary. See that's the main problem. Many people with a belief in god automatically perceive anything even slightly considering god's non existance to be an attack on all their beliefs or culture. I defined god as an imaginary entity because its something never before wholly perceived in reality. This is based on the fact that there is no empirical evidence for god. I am well aware that many believers view it as a attack on their life, but that's actually a sign of THEM being intolerant and close-minded. Not the other way around.


Loyalty is a character flaw? That's a new one. You continue to paint an unfavorable picture of yourself.

Responsibility requires loyalty and commitment. I don't understand how one can say with any conviction that they are incompatible.

So, you don't believe anything that there's insufficient empirical data for? I'm sure that's not true. How do you fill the blanks between reliable and valid data?

Unless you're referring to personal observation. How are religious people exempt from that?

I didn't say that you were attacking anyone. My point is that your convictions(which ironically lack the empirical data as well proving it). I for one cannot disprove many well-held beliefs of many cultures due to the lack of empirical evidence disproving it either. Nor can I or will I do the same for your well-held beliefs. To not be able to see that you do as you dismiss others for is what is close-minded.


----------



## Adversary

Metus said:


> Loyalty is a character flaw? That's a new one. You continue to paint an unfavorable picture of yourself.
> 
> Responsibility requires loyalty and commitment. I don't understand how one can say with any conviction that they are incompatible.


Sure you can call it a character flaw if that's how you view lack of personal responsibility. Believing that someone other than yourself to tell you what is right or wrong encourages a lack of responsibility for your own actions. The concept of redemption, where every wrong is wiped out for you the moment you accept or believe in god is just another example. How can this possibly encourage personal responsibility for one's actions?



> So, you don't believe anything that there's insufficient empirical data for? I'm sure that's not true. How do you fill the blanks between reliable and valid data?


You are right. My Beliefs don't require empirical data, but they must at least have evidence or reason behind them. I hold rational beliefs instead of faith based belief.



> Unless you're referring to personal observation. How are religious people exempt from that?


Religious people don't have evidence and their personal observation do not count as evidence either. There are many possible psychological reasons as to why someone might believe they have perceived god. There are also many people who say they have been abducted by aliens. Should we start accepting this event as factual? No its imaginary.



> I didn't say that you were attacking anyone. My point is that your convictions(which ironically lack the empirical data as well proving it). I for one cannot disprove many well-held beliefs of many cultures due to the lack of empirical evidence disproving it either. Nor can I or will I do the same for your well-held beliefs. To not be able to see that you do as you dismiss others for is what is close-minded.


What convictions are you talking about? I was never trying to disprove anything. Do you honestly think that stating something is imaginary is the same as disproving it is real? Everyone views god differently. Something like that is impossible to disprove. I am always open to the possibility, but there has yet to be any evidence. Everyone has a different vision of what god is and no one can agree to a specific description. This is what makes god an imaginary entity.


----------



## chantellabella

Adversary said:


> Belief in God in general is* a lack of **responsibility.* Regardless of what the religion teaches, you are still being loyal to something. I am using the word *responsibility* in its alternate meaning as a calling or *a commitment.*


So are you saying belief in God is a lack of commitment? That's how that logic reads. Seems opposite. I have committed to believing in God. Just saying.



Adversary said:


> *I did not say anyone's *culture or* beliefs are imaginary*. See that's the main problem. Many people with a belief in god automatically perceive anything even slightly considering god's non existance to be an attack on all their beliefs or culture. *I defined god as an imaginary entity* because its something never before wholly perceived in reality.


Beliefs are imaginary but God is not imaginary, yet my God is my belief. Again, huh?



Adversary said:


> This is based on the fact that there is no empirical evidence for god. I am well aware that many believers view it as a attack on their life, but that's actually a sign of THEM being intolerant and close-minded. Not the other way around.


The beauty of this entire thread is that none of us humans have a clue what's out there. No empirical evidence of anything.

My own personal evidence is that* I have heard God* and *seen Heaven.* No one can disprove that. That's a ton of empirical evidence in *my* world.

These kinds of arguments, to me are moot points. Unless you have come back from the dead and spent a lifetime in the great beyond why discuss who's right or wrong.

We'll all know when we die.

It just seems silly to talk about proof, empirical evidence, etc. I really wish religious scholars wrote here. They would at least have debates with a little more knowledge of biblical and spiritual history. I feel someone who has studied the Bible, Quran, and other holy books as well as every other history book has a better shot at an intelligent conversation than just random people with one piece of information such as seeing it on a Nova special.

Sigh.

Ok.

Commence "discussion" again. 

I think I'll go for a walk to photograph all that beauty that spontaneously poofed here. Ya'll have fun.


----------



## Adversary

chantellabella said:


> So are you saying belief in God is a lack of commitment? That's how that logic reads. Seems opposite. I have committed to believing in God. Just saying.


No its a lack of your personal responsibility since you are relying on higher being to tell you what is right or wrong instead of listening to yourself.



> Beliefs are imaginary but God is not imaginary, yet my God is my belief. Again, huh?


Beliefs based on evidence or reason = Rational

Beliefs however can be imaginary when they involve a extraordinary claim of any entity with no evidence to support it.



> The beauty of this entire thread is that none of us humans have a clue what's out there. No empirical evidence of anything.


Yes you are right. None of us know what is out there. If someone says that a higher being exists then that is a very extraordinary claim and the more specific you get about this claim then the less likely that entity can possibly be true without a shred of evidence.



> My own personal evidence is that* I have heard God* and *seen Heaven.* No one can disprove that. That's a ton of empirical evidence in *my* world.


Your own personal evidence does not count for everyone. There is no such thing as personal empirical evidence. There has to be reasonable justification that anyone besides you can accept. For all we know, these could easily just be hallucinations on your part. Our sense are known to be very deceiving when it comes to super natural beliefs. With so many people saying they have seen heaven or heard god and giving completely contradicting stories, It's hard to take anyone seriously.



> These kinds of arguments, to me are moot points. Unless you have come back from the dead and spent a lifetime in the great beyond why discuss who's right or wrong.


No one is arguing who's right or wrong. Maybe you guys are, but I am definitely not. I am only trying to justify my use of the word imaginary to describe god which you guys seem to have a problem with.



> We'll all know when we die.


Huh? We wont know anything when we are dead because we wouldn't exist anymore. Unless you are assuming everyone comes back to life. Yet another unjustified belief.



> It just seems silly to talk about proof, empirical evidence, etc. I really wish religious scholars wrote here. They would at least have debates with a little more knowledge of biblical and spiritual history. I feel someone who has studied the Bible, Quran, and other holy books as well as every other history book has a better shot at an intelligent conversation than just random people with one piece of information such as seeing it on a Nova special.


Silly to talk about proof, evidence, empirical data? To me its impossible to talk about truths without having these things. Religious scholars? Why do they have to be religious? Why not just have any scholar that studies religion? They also study the bible and other religious books and most of them admit there is no evidence for god. Even many religious scholars would tell you this.


----------



## Dark Alchemist

Olesya said:


> I liked one of Freud's quote that basically said people believe in God because they aren't ready yet to understand that there is no mighty being to protect them and help them. For the time being, people need to believe in this entity called God in order to live and feel somewhat secure.


That's very true. I liked that observation as well.


----------



## chantellabella

Adversary said:


> No its a lack of your personal responsibility since you are relying on higher being to tell you what is right or wrong instead of listening to yourself.


Where did I say I sit back and let God do it all. I think I'm pretty responsible.



Adversary said:


> Beliefs however can be imaginary when they involve a extraordinary claim of any entity with no evidence to support it.


I agree. The extraordinary claim that my beliefs are anything that effects anyone else is ridiculous.



Adversary said:


> Yes you are right. None of us know what is out there. If someone says that a higher being exists then that is a very extraordinary claim and the more specific you get about this claim then the less likely that entity can possibly be true without a shred of evidence.


That is your opinion that my belief in a higher power is an extraordinary claim. My opinion is that it's the most right for me.



Adversary said:


> Your own personal evidence does not count for everyone.


Where the heck did I say that? You might want to refer to my first post in this thread. If my evidence effected anyone else on this planet, I would feel damned proud that I had that much power. 



Adversary said:


> There is no such thing as personal empirical evidence.


Sure there is.



Adversary said:


> There has to be reasonable justification that anyone besides you can accept.


Why? Why does my belief affect anyone else? I don't care what others believe. I don't shove my beliefs down other people's throats.



Adversary said:


> For all we know, these could easily just be hallucinations on your part.


Again...........I have no idea why my beliefs effect any one in any way? Truly I"m not that powerful.



Adversary said:


> Our sense are known to be very deceiving when it comes to super natural beliefs. With so many people saying they have seen heaven or heard god and giving completely contradicting stories, It's hard to take anyone seriously.


Ok.  Again, huh?



Adversary said:


> No one is arguing who's right or wrong. Maybe you guys are, but I am definitely not. I am only trying to justify my use of the word imaginary to describe god which you guys seem to have a problem with.


Again, please see my first post that I did in this thread. You're kinda losing me here.



Adversary said:


> Huh? We wont know anything when we are dead because we wouldn't exist anymore. Unless you are assuming everyone comes back to life. Yet another unjustified belief.


I'm just trying to understand why my beliefs have you so flustered. Justified by whom? Who are these people you are referring to that I have so much power over?



Adversary said:


> Silly to talk about proof, evidence, empirical data? To me its impossible to talk about truths without having these things. Religious scholars? Why do they have to be religious? Why not just have any scholar that studies religion? They also study the bible and other religious books and most of them admit there is no evidence for god. Even many religious scholars would tell you this.


It's not impossible for me to believe in God. I understand the OP's premise that God is for weak people. End of story.

Whatever else you got going on here is really kinda way off base. It doesn't even relate to the OP. I was just trying to make sense out your other post this morning. It really was making a lot of assumptions about people in general and I wanted to clarify that my beliefs have nada to do with you or the lamp post.

I think any type of debate about spiritual beliefs is just silly.

My position is I don't like people assuming things about me. I came here this morning to set that straight. I'm too old and tired to listen to people telling me what I think or making judgment about it.

Now, run along and debate with somebody else. I've grown kinda tired of derailing the OP's thread.

Thanks.


----------



## harrison

chantellabella said:


> I think any type of debate about spiritual beliefs is just silly.


Me too Chantellabella. It's not something that even interests me anymore.

And whoever said that I sounded condescending and (something else?) - you're right - sometimes I can be a real wanker! Sorry about that.


----------



## fredbloggs02

Dark Alchemist said:


> That's very true. I liked that observation as well.


Freud was nothing more than a hanger-on to back of Nietzsche in that respect, who said: "God is dead, he has died of his pity for man"....and that is entirely different from proclaiming God a non-exsistent fantasy lol.


----------



## Adversary

chantellabella said:


> Where did I say I sit back and let God do it all. I think I'm pretty responsible.
> 
> I agree. The extraordinary claim that my beliefs are anything that effects anyone else is ridiculous.
> 
> That is your opinion that my belief in a higher power is an extraordinary claim. My opinion is that it's the most right for me.
> 
> Where the heck did I say that? You might want to refer to my first post in this thread. If my evidence effected anyone else on this planet, I would feel damned proud that I had that much power.
> 
> Sure there is.
> 
> Why? Why does my belief affect anyone else? I don't care what others believe. I don't shove my beliefs down other people's throats.
> 
> Again...........I have no idea why my beliefs effect any one in any way? Truly I"m not that powerful.
> 
> Ok.  Again, huh?
> 
> Again, please see my first post that I did in this thread. You're kinda losing me here.
> 
> I'm just trying to understand why my beliefs have you so flustered. Justified by whom? Who are these people you are referring to that I have so much power over?
> 
> It's not impossible for me to believe in God. I understand the OP's premise that God is for weak people. End of story.
> 
> Whatever else you got going on here is really kinda way off base. It doesn't even relate to the OP. I was just trying to make sense out your other post this morning. It really was making a lot of assumptions about people in general and I wanted to clarify that my beliefs have nada to do with you or the lamp post.
> 
> I think any type of debate about spiritual beliefs is just silly.
> 
> My position is I don't like people assuming things about me. I came here this morning to set that straight. I'm too old and tired to listen to people telling me what I think or making judgment about it.
> 
> Now, run along and debate with somebody else. I've grown kinda tired of derailing the OP's thread.
> 
> Thanks.


I already mentioned I am not arguing about whether your beliefs are right or wrong. I would never argue about that. My only interest is knowing the truth of something even if I never get an answer. I always thought the point of this argument was about trying to convince me that god is not imaginary and that belief in god does not encourage lack of personal responsibility. You seem to have derailed the thread yourself by going off on how I am wrong based on what your unjustified beliefs say. You say you are not forcing your beliefs but that's essentially what you are doing even if it was not your true intention. You have yet to show me or explain why my interpretation of the quote was wrong. You have only ever talked about how it contradicts with your own personal beliefs which should not count as evidence for anyone else other then yourself. The burden of proof goes to the person making a claim, so don't expect other people to believe the same thing as you when you only claim to have personal evidence. You can't expect everyone to have the same belief just because you say you saw heaven or heard god. You can't use your personal belief as a way to argue against my statement that god is imaginary. If you really didn't care about others beliefs and kept your own beliefs to yourself like you say then you wouldn't argue against my interpretation of the quote. Your beliefs are just not justified by scientific method, so they can't be used to counter the idea that god is imaginary. I'll end it there though since having an argument with anyone that refuses to accept the scientific method is just a lost cause.


----------



## fredbloggs02

Adversary said:


> No its a lack of your personal responsibility since you are relying on higher being to tell you what is right or wrong instead of listening to yourself.


How many atheist promoters employ this and similar sophistic dialectic movements to artificially back the theist into a corner? The fact that redemption is offered by God by no means proves those of faith irresponsible or dependent on a lawgiver above themselves. An autonomous position cannot be so by definition alone in my view.

I could pick apart the rest of your criticisms but I've no interest in a drawn out discussion over someone else's beliefs... trying to disprove them by my empirically founded stalwart "rationality".


----------



## simian4455

I love watching them.


----------



## Dark Alchemist

fredbloggs02 said:


> Freud was nothing more than a hanger-on to back of Nietzsche in that respect, who said: "God is dead, he has died of his pity for man"....and that is entirely different from proclaiming God a non-exsistent fantasy lol.


:roll


----------



## harrison

fredbloggs02 said:


> Ok, that is interesting... Tell me all about the nothing you were looking for! in words of less than one sentence! go!


Good for you Adam - you're right to make a bit of fun of that stupid post of mine. It was absolute garbage! Sorry. I find it very hard to even remember what it was like when I studied that stuff, but I know that what I learnt, if that's the right word, was nothing like what I was looking for. Some of the concepts in Buddhist and Hindu philosophy are very obscure and abstract - you might find 'sunyata' an interesting one to look into - not meaning to sound ridiculous (again! ) - but it is a concept which is virtually impossible to be explained with words. ( the words sort of get in the way of explaining it, if that makes any sense.) I remember doing a big paper on it and getting very frustrated - trying to work out what the f#$% they were on about - I was on Xanax at the time, plus I got a bit pissed - and for a fraction of a second I felt like I understood. Being slightly out of it really helped. It was really weird.


----------



## Adversary

fredbloggs02 said:


> How many atheist promoters employ this and similar sophistic dialectic movements to artificially back the theist into a corner? The fact that redemption is offered by God by no means proves those of faith irresponsible or dependent on a lawgiver above themselves. An autonomous position cannot be so by definition alone in my view.
> 
> I could pick apart the rest of your criticisms but I've no interest in a drawn out discussion over someone else's beliefs... trying to disprove them by my empirically founded stalwart "rationality".


Atheist promoters? :lol

You actually poorly conceptualized what I meant. Redemption was just one example of how it can encourage a lack of self responsibility. I am not trying to prove that those with faith are irresponsible or that they are always dependent on God. I am only suggesting that a degree of personal responsibility is lost when another higher authority takes control over yourself.


----------



## Scoobs

so Im just wondering in all of this ..... if either side has any proof that believing in one thing or DISbeliving in it make any scrap of difference one way or another ? 

the issue is when someone starts preaching that they have found it ok to pass over control of their lives to some'being' else and it was the best thing they ever did ,.... and THEN feels the need to make other people feel lesser cus they havent .............. or feels they are on the defensive cus other people ask WHY, WHAT, WHO, WHEN, WHERE ? 

if you believe that beliving in a notion that was created 2000 years ago is right for you .... ENJOY IT BY YOURSELF cus it IS a personal discovery apparently ...... let other people go look for their own information ---- which may possibly preceed 'god' (lower case singular) by many millenia --- or if you have proof of such a high being show the proof ... without resorting to wishywashy 'hes everywhere' .. no he/she isnt .. thats an appreciation of life and nature ... not worship of an allpowerful god (lower case singular) that has the capacity to allow or condemn people FOR ETERNITY huh


----------



## simian4455

The great thing about these people is that they are well-informed, rational and respectful hosts.


----------



## fredbloggs02

don36 said:


> Good for you Adam - you're right to make a bit of fun of that stupid post of mine. It was absolute garbage! Sorry. I find it very hard to even remember what it was like when I studied that stuff, but I know that what I learnt, if that's the right word, was nothing like what I was looking for. Some of the concepts in Buddhist and Hindu philosophy are very obscure and abstract - you might find 'sunyata' an interesting one to look into - not meaning to sound ridiculous (again! ) - but it is a concept which is virtually impossible to be explained with words. ( the words sort of get in the way of explaining it, if that makes any sense.) I remember doing a big paper on it and getting very frustrated - trying to work out what the f#$% they were on about - I was on Xanax at the time, plus I got a bit pissed - and for a fraction of a second I felt like I understood. Being slightly out of it really helped. It was really weird.


..I didn't mean to come across as making fun of what you said, I simply thought to go further would've provoked reams and reams of words..lol. I think I understood something of what you meant. The idea that words get in the way does make sense to me, it has been a thought that struck me since the fragment of Nietzsche in my signature drew my attention to it.. I read something about(I think it was) Chinese theatre in one of Heidegger's books, how not only the stage or props, but the whole world is swept into the actor's gestures. Heidegger said in essence: "where are those gestures in Western theatre? How reductive, how sequestered is the Western world that their gestures and mannerisms fit into the rectangular surface of the stage!" For all the Western philosophers who ridicule it, all the modern atheist community that demand proofs of God, I think Asian philosophy is too foreign for the typical Western mind to truly embrace. I thought you might mean something like that: isolated nothingness that has nothing to do with the rest of the world...

If you were one with the world of darkness when your mind first spoke to you in emptiness, if there weren't so much darkness encircling your thoughts, being, and gestures, you could never have strayed as far into abstract nothingness searching for a light..a single candle...sort of thing..lol.

I wish I knew where that Nihilistic idea of nothingness first suffused Western culture, or if it were always there. Could it be that we in the west are simply a particularly individuated, isolated people, in contrast to those of the East? I feel in Eastern Civilization the people there aren't born into nothingness..in the way we are...lol.... There you go, bull's eye in just over a paragraph!.. of course:d Thank you for the new word.


----------



## sadeyes

chantellabella said:


> I understand *my definition* of weak and how *I* interpret the statement "God is for weak people."
> 
> I am weak in that I have a very hard time controlling my emotions and actions. I am quick to anger, slow to forgiveness.
> 
> I struggle with many habits due to my hurts and hangups.
> 
> *I personally *need help to overcome my hurts, habits and hangups, and* I choose* to allow God to be my helper.
> 
> So thank you, OP for bringing up this thread. It reminded me of my beliefs and helped me stay strong in my weakness.
> 
> _______________________
> 
> Note to anyone wishing to respond to me rather than to the OP and thread discussion.....
> 
> I understand that *others may find help in other ways.* I don't judge their ways unless their way is to attack me.
> 
> However, I also *do not invite* others to tell me I should feel, believe, do, etc. I have my beliefs..... period. I don't shove them on you. You don't shove yours on me.
> 
> What the rest of you do, think, say is irrelevant to me. *My belief only affects me. *
> 
> In other words, back off! I am not interested in attempts to sway, insult, offend or tell *me* that my God doesn't exist. If you personally attack me, I will report you.
> 
> I believe the OP was brave to post this in the *spiritual support* section.
> 
> I am giving the OP *spiritual support* in this *spiritual support* thread.
> 
> I am merely posting a response that is important for me to say to the OP. It doesn't concern anyone else, but me and the OP.


Thank you for your reply.

As I stripped away all my layers of ego, self-centeredness, sarcastic humor, cockiness, I was left with a very weak person.

I needed God (through Jesus' teachings) to build me back up.

Now, with Him, I can be a successful, confident, and humble person in this very loud world.


----------



## Freiheit

I feel like this correlates with my experiences. When I'm at my lowest point and feeling terrible I become more religious and start to pray daily because I'm desperate and feel that nothing else can help. When things are going well and I am stronger, I hardly think about God at all.


----------



## simian4455

Freiheit said:


> I feel like this correlates with my experiences. When I'm at my lowest point and feeling terrible I become more religious and start to pray daily because I'm desperate and feel that nothing else can help. When things are going well and I am stronger, I hardly think about God at all.


All of us deal with problems differently. Some people talk to their family and friends and some are really strong-minded and resolve these issues within themselves. Others seek solace in a higher being.


----------



## hoddesdon

Freiheit said:


> I feel like this correlates with my experiences. When I'm at my lowest point and feeling terrible I become more religious and start to pray daily because I'm desperate and feel that nothing else can help. When things are going well and I am stronger, I hardly think about God at all.


An alternate explanation is that when you have no specific reason, you focus on yourself and lose yourself in your own world.


----------



## cafune

Freiheit said:


> I feel like this correlates with my experiences. When I'm at my lowest point and feeling terrible I become more religious and start to pray daily because I'm desperate and feel that nothing else can help. When things are going well and I am stronger, I hardly think about God at all.


I can relate to this.

When I was religious, this was my relationship with "god". I haven't grown any stronger since I became an atheist; I just don't believe in the existence of a deity anymore. That's it. At times, I wish I still did because I used god as my crutch/safety net, and now, I don't have that. I miss believing -perhaps irrationally so- that all of my problems would resolve themselves, somehow. So no, I wouldn't say god is for weak people; I'd say it's for selectively irrational people.


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## Royals

lilyamongthorns said:


> That's amazing. God is good.
> 
> I wouldn't have overcome most of my social anxiety and self-esteem issues without Him. He made me stronger.


I agree, He makes us stronger. So are we also weak for having relationships? For having friends? For needing people's help and support? For doubting and being fearfull sometimes? For talking to therapists? We have a relationship with God, like we would have with a parent. The difference is God is all encompassing and can give us everything without compromising.

Because of this material world full of earthly desires and addictions you become weak. Your will and spirit becomes weak. With God you overcome all fear, bondage, negativity, sickness and hate so you become a more faithfull, stronger willed and powerfull person. Like the prophets where in the bible. Look at David who fought Goliath. You are a strong warrior for God. This evil world and the the one who owns it is weak without God


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## lilyamongthorns

Royals said:


> I agree, He makes us stronger. So are we also weak for having relationships?
> 
> For talking to therapists?


Yes. People who go to therapy are usually seen as weak by others, but the truth is, we all have issues. We could all benefit from seeing a counselor.


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## Royals

lilyamongthorns said:


> Yes. People who go to therapy are usually seen as weak by others, but the truth is, we all have issues. We could all benefit from seeing a counselor.


True! It takes a man or woman to honestly look at yourself, admit your mistakes and faults and do something about them. If we are weak for believing so let it be! We have been through a lot more. Being mocked or hated because of believing in God is nothing new. We know better.

And by the way it takes a lot of courage to go to the agnostic-atheist section, or even make a thread there. And being mocked for it :lol


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## JohnnyWhite

God/Religion was merely created as a method to sustain ambition and civility within society. There are far better options to help with SA. But I'm not one to judge.


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## AceEmoKid

Interesting. I'm not religious but I find some seed of truth in this.


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## DubnRun

Religion does not equal spirituality. For me I see religion as a box for your perception. "Dont think for yourself. listen to me" It is teaching you to look outside of yourself for the power instead of within. The bible actually teaches us this, but whats funny is that Christianity, including pretty much every church in the world are teaching it literally. It is actually full of symbology and dark sayings, and therefore must be decoded. Bizarre stories such as Adam and Eve suddenly begin to make a whole load of sense...


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## Seaweedface

The original post was lovely. It reminds me of a response to a post I got from a guy once who expressed how difficult it can be to recieve comfort from god, something I find to be true. Though simplistic, this has stuck with me. I think to say that to say god is for weak people and that others have strength inside themselves to cope without is strange. I believe I have god within me, as well as around me, whatever god is, and that is at least partly why I am able to reach inside myself to find strength to deal with my problems and take responsibility. However, no matter what difference in opinion may bring about, everyone is weak, at to some extent, and we cope with that weakness in different ways. Belief, which creates hope, I think is an amazing antidote, whether belief in god or ones self.


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## low

I'd rather not delude myself and others.


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## LittleBearBrah

I agree with you OP :boogie. I love your post. Amen.


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## lilyamongthorns

Royals said:


> True! It takes a man or woman to honestly look at yourself, admit your mistakes and faults and do something about them. If we are weak for believing so let it be! We have been through a lot more. Being mocked or hated because of believing in God is nothing new. We know better.
> 
> And by the way it takes a lot of courage to go to the agnostic-atheist section, or even make a thread there. And being mocked for it :lol


I hear ya.


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## lonelyjew

LOL, thought OP was an a-hole for bringing a debate into into a support section, but was pleasantly surprised .


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## Albert11

After reading most of this thread---once again I see believers continually defending their faith in a (*Spiritual Support Forum*). Why do atheists feel the need to troll, harass and criticize people of faith? Are they so proud of their (spiritual emptiness) that they feel like it should be shared and promoted? 

It is impossible to prove that God does not exist because they cannot physically see him. The dimension of the spirit and God as deity is only discerned by our spirit. If one is unaware of one's spirit---then it is impossible to comprehend the spiritual realm. Therefore it is a waste of time to debate something that another cannot comprehend. And it is a waste of time and arrogant to try to discredit anothers spiritual awareness. 

But---- back to the *Support *side of this forum. It would be nice to have a place where God could be discussed with other believers who don't have to put up with the constant bashing, mocking, name calling, condescending irrelevant comments that unbelievers are compelled to deliver to believers. 

I really don't understand what the personal payoff is----does it send a tingle up the leg when they bully a believer? Has someone hurt them severely in life and they feel like striking back at believers will avenge their pain? Or do they think they could possibly sway a believer to abandon God because of their predictable, rehearsed and hollow arguments? I really don't know. 

What I do know is------God called my name. Jesus saved me from a life of destruction by giving me instructions on how to live an open book life of accountability. His Word is his will. He explains what, why, when, how and who in His Holy Word. 

You don't have to except it---or believe it---He has given us all free will. If you don't ----that's your choice. But many choose to believe---are actually called to believe. 

*John 20:29*

(NIV)
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."


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## Droidsteel

Attacking the spiritual support forum is for the extremely weak and painfully bored.

Edit: Did I just jump the gun and assume someone was attacking the forum again when they weren't?


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## Adversary

Albert11 said:


> After reading most of this thread---once again I see believers continually defending their faith in a (*Spiritual Support Forum*). Why do atheists feel the need to troll, harass and criticize people of faith? Are they so proud of their (spiritual emptiness) that they feel like it should be shared and promoted?
> 
> It is impossible to prove that God does not exist because they cannot physically see him. The dimension of the spirit and God as deity is only discerned by our spirit. If one is unaware of one's spirit---then it is impossible to comprehend the spiritual realm. Therefore it is a waste of time to debate something that another cannot comprehend. And it is a waste of time and arrogant to try to discredit anothers spiritual awareness.
> 
> But---- back to the *Support *side of this forum. It would be nice to have a place where God could be discussed with other believers who don't have to put up with the constant bashing, mocking, name calling, condescending irrelevant comments that unbelievers are compelled to deliver to believers.
> 
> I really don't understand what the personal payoff is----does it send a tingle up the leg when they bully a believer? Has someone hurt them severely in life and they feel like striking back at believers will avenge their pain? Or do they think they could possibly sway a believer to abandon God because of their predictable, rehearsed and hollow arguments? I really don't know.
> 
> What I do know is------God called my name. Jesus saved me from a life of destruction by giving me instructions on how to live an open book life of accountability. His Word is his will. He explains what, why, when, how and who in His Holy Word.
> 
> You don't have to except it---or believe it---He has given us all free will. If you don't ----that's your choice. But many choose to believe---are actually called to believe.
> 
> *John 20:29*
> 
> (NIV)
> 29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."


Why do some theist view a form of critical thinking as an attack towards people of faith? I did not know encouraging people to consider all possibilities was a way of harassing someone. No non-believer in this thread has done anything of that nature. This thread is after all is about Einsteins statement that God is for weak people because of childish beliefs. You can't honestly expect there not to be at least some interpretation of this quote that won't contradict with your own beliefs even from those who believe in god. To think that the atheist intentions in this thread are to try and get believers to abandon god is ludicrous. If you want a forum where everyone shares your belief then go to a christian site.


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## Albert11

Adversary said:


> Why do some theist view a form of critical thinking as an attack towards people of faith? I did not know encouraging people to consider all possibilities was a way of harassing someone. No non-believer in this thread has done anything of that nature. This thread is after all is about Einsteins statement that God is for weak people because of childish beliefs. You can't honestly expect there not to be at least some interpretation of this quote that won't contradict with your own beliefs even from those who believe in god. To think that the atheist intentions in this thread are to try and get believers to abandon god is ludicrous. If you want a forum where everyone shares your belief then go to a christian site.


This forum was not intended for debate---but for support----yet most of what you consider critical thinking comes off as disrespect. I've read your posts and categorizing someone's comment as ludicrous is dismissive and critical. Stating that God is imaginary is insulting to a believer and is never a welcome comment. Insinuating that someone who believes in God has not already considered other possibilities is condescending. And trying to discredit another's spiritual experiences is arrogant. 

No Christian I know feels enlightened or inspired by criticisms of their belief and faith. Because Christians *love* God and His Word. And when someone you love is criticized, or attempts are made to invalidate our God whom we honor and worship--- it is blasphemous in our eyes. For Christians---God is not up for debate. Its disrespectful and offensive. 

Just as one would not put up with criticisms and disrespectful, invalidating comments of a beloved family member---. It is worse when people want to debate or marginalize what we believe is *Holy and sacred*. *Holy and sacred are not just words to us*. It is a violation of what we value most in life and death. 

As a Christian for nearly 30 years I personally do not question the authority and validity of God. Been there, done that as a young person. I didn't always believe in God
It took 29 years of doing it my way before I came to the conclusion that He is real and personal. And once a person has experienced the power and love of God in their lives---debating it is a waste of time.


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## chantellabella

Albert11 said:


> This forum was not intended for debate---but for support----yet most of what you consider critical thinking comes off as disrespect. I've read your posts and categorizing someone's comment as ludicrous is dismissive and critical. Stating that God is imaginary is insulting to a believer and is never a welcome comment. Insinuating that someone who believes in God has not already considered other possibilities is condescending. And trying to discredit another's spiritual experiences is arrogant.
> 
> No Christian I know feels enlightened or inspired by criticisms of their belief and faith. Because Christians *love* God and His Word. And when someone you love is criticized, or attempts are made to invalidate our God whom we honor and worship--- it is blasphemous in our eyes. For Christians---God is not up for debate. Its disrespectful and offensive.
> 
> Just as one would not put up with criticisms and disrespectful, invalidating comments of a beloved family member---. It is worse when people want to debate or marginalize what we believe is *Holy and sacred*. *Holy and sacred are not just words to us*. It is a violation of what we value most in life and death.
> 
> As a Christian for nearly 30 years I personally do not question the authority and validity of God. Been there, done that as a young person. I didn't always believe in God
> It took 29 years of doing it my way before I came to the conclusion that He is real and personal. And once a person has experienced the power and love of God in their lives---debating it is a waste of time.


Thank you for saying this.


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## Royals

Indeed, I personally think we should only share our spiritual experiences/thoughts and postively encourage and stimulate each other as believers in this section. Not critizize or hate. That is allowed on the agnostic/atheist forums. I don't like to debate about God's existence but just acknowledge and strengthen my beliefs by other one's stories and thoughts. So let's share those and let's keep it respectfull and loving. If you are truelly interested in spirituality or want to to start to believe, share your thoughts and questions. But if you just want to mock or critizize here what use is that?


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## Adversary

Well that's the first problem. You guys assume anything that even remotely suggesting your beliefs might be wrong as a way to debate about God's existence. There was NEVER any debates and nor did I ever start any debates about the existence of god. Not every form of of criticism is a means to start a debate and no act of questioning something should ever be considered offensive. You may think its something "holy" or "sacred", but that does not change it from simply being a belief. This is after all a support thread for people of ALL faith. Not just the christian faith. This thread just happens to be specifically about the god of the bible. No one is forcing you to agree with anything. I guess its too much to expect everyone here to keep an open mind.


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## chantellabella

Royals said:


> Indeed, I personally think we should only share our spiritual experiences/thoughts and postively encourage and stimulate each other as believers in this section. Not critizize or hate. That is allowed on the agnostic/atheist forums. I don't like to debate about God's existance but just acknowledge and strengthen my beliefs by other one's stories and thoughts. So let's share those and let's keep it respectfull and loving. If you are truelly interested in spirituality or want to to start to believe share your thoughts and questions. But if you just want to mock or critizize here what use is that?


Thanks Royals. I agree.


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## Albert11

Royals said:


> Indeed, I personally think we should only share our spiritual experiences/thoughts and postively encourage and stimulate each other as believers in this section. Not critizize or hate. That is allowed on the agnostic/atheist forums. I don't like to debate about God's existance but just acknowledge and strengthen my beliefs by other one's stories and thoughts. So let's share those and let's keep it respectfull and loving. If you are truelly interested in spirituality or want to to start to believe share your thoughts and questions. But if you just want to mock or critizize here what use is that?


I agree as well --and thank you for your insight and encouragment.


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