# Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Is it okay to post articles in this section? Wasn't sure if I should post in the Society & Culture section or not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-majors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?ref=education&pagewanted=all



> Studies have found that roughly 40 percent of students planning engineering and science majors end up switching to other subjects or failing to get any degree. That increases to as much as 60 percent when pre-medical students, who typically have the strongest SAT scores and high school science preparation, are included, according to new data from the University of California at Los Angeles. That is twice the combined attrition rate of all other majors.





> The bulk of attrition comes in engineering and among pre-med majors, who typically leave STEM fields if their hopes for medical school fade. There is no doubt that the main majors are difficult and growing more complex. Some students still lack math preparation or aren't willing to work hard enough.





> The latest research also suggests that there could be more subtle problems at work, like the proliferation of grade inflation in the humanities and social sciences, which provides another incentive for students to leave STEM majors. It is no surprise that grades are lower in math and science, where the answers are clear-cut and there are no bonus points for flair. Professors also say they are strict because science and engineering courses build on one another, and a student who fails to absorb the key lessons in one class will flounder in the next.
> 
> After studying nearly a decade of transcripts at one college, Kevin Rask, a professor at Wake Forest University, concluded last year that the grades in the introductory math and science classes were among the lowest on campus. The chemistry department gave the lowest grades over all, averaging 2.78 out of 4, followed by mathematics at 2.90. Education, language and English courses had the highest averages, ranging from 3.33 to 3.36.





> MATTHEW MONIZ bailed out of engineering at Notre Dame in the fall of his sophomore year. He had been the kind of recruit most engineering departments dream about. He had scored an 800 in math on the SAT and in the 700s in both reading and writing. He also had taken Calculus BC and five other Advanced Placement courses at a prep school in Washington, D.C., and had long planned to major in engineering.
> 
> But as Mr. Moniz sat in his mechanics class in 2009, he realized he had already had enough. "I was trying to memorize equations, and engineering's all about the application, which they really didn't teach too well," he says. "It was just like, 'Do these practice problems, then you're on your own.' " And as he looked ahead at the curriculum, he did not see much relief on the horizon.


Graphic:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/11/01/education/edl-06stem-gfx/edl-06stem-gfx-popup-v3.jpg


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## cavemanslaststand (Jan 6, 2011)

Yes, science is brutally hard.

I used to be an "elite" student. Took calc when I was 12 years old, won many math and computer programming contests, and have 5 college degrees.

Yet I'm currently working 5 years in banking IT for people who are anything but scientists. They are promoted for "soft" people skills such as talking and B school stuff.

Something needs to be said about the business climate in the US giving diminished returns for engineering/science too. I can dare say 10-20 years ago when there was a promise of a lucrative career, many engineering/science students "toughed it out" despite low grades.

I'm just going to go make a decently salary at my stupid job tomorrow and haven't really used math and science for a long time.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

cavemanslaststand said:


> Yes, science is brutally hard.
> 
> I used to be an "elite" student. Took calc when I was 12 years old, won many math and computer programming contests, and have 5 college degrees.
> 
> ...


Yeah, a lot of the comments to the article mentioned the job prospects being not so hot. Here are a couple:

"It's also about career path. Why bust your hump in engineering, when a degree in finance will land you a 6-figures job on Wall St., and a shot at 7 or 8 figures, for about the same effort? Especially knowing that corporate America considers engineers to be discardable, and does not hesitate to offshore engineering jobs to India or the Philippines. Some of the CEOs who whine the loudest about shortage of STEM graduates are the biggest culprits in making engineering an undesirable profession."

"It's just another government-sponsored scam to encourage American students studying STEM. Why go into huge debt, spend years of hard work, and then your career and your livelihood is cut short by the importation of the H-1Bs from India and China that lowers your wages, worsen working condition, and foster a climate of discrimination against American engineers?

My friends, who graduated from U.C. Berkeley in Engineering, now work as real estate agents in Silicon Valley after only 10 year working in engineering. They couldn't find any job because of the H-1Bs. Why bother working that hard and then only have a 10-year career? Why not start out as real estate agent just after high school? It saves time and money and during that time, you would have built up your clientele and you can deduct a lot of business expenses.

I'm going to Stanford and many of my classmates aren't interested in STEM either. They know that a career in science is a dead-end job. It's better to get into Finance or something like that. It's nice to take some Computer Science classes if you want to start your own company. But to get a STEM degree and then work for big corporations, forget about it. They will give preferences to an H-1B who is cheaper and younger and push you out of the door "pronto."


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

komorikun said:


> "It's also about career path. Why bust your hump in engineering, when a degree in finance will land you a 6-figures job on Wall St., and a shot at 7 or 8 figures, for about the same effort? Especially knowing that corporate America considers engineers to be discardable, and does not hesitate to offshore engineering jobs to India or the Philippines. Some of the CEOs who whine the loudest about shortage of STEM graduates are the biggest culprits in making engineering an undesirable profession."


This. Unfortunately, busting your *** for an engineering degree is just not worth it when you will, very likely, not have a job waiting for you in the near future after graduating. Obviously this is dependent on the type of engineering, but still, with job security, and likely pay levels as well, dropping, the effort necessary and the tuition costs just don't add up in a cost/benefit self analysis.

Still though, I'd say that's only half the problem. The fact is that today's culture has lead to Americans becoming lazier. That article talked about premeds having a high attrition rate, they do, but I'd say more often than not it is laziness which kills that dream rather than a lack of ability. Students today don't seem to have the concept of personal responsibility, delayed gratification, and personal sacrifice necessary to succeed. I've had friends who had a great time getting stoned, and going on road trips, and generally living life to the fullest, while at the same time bombing their classes, while I stayed in and studied because I knew what was required of me. A lot of people go into college with their first priority placed on enjoying themselves, and success second, if not lower on the totem pole resulting both in a poor work ethic leading to bad grades, and switching to easier, and often functionally useless degrees in the liberal arts. I do wonder when this change occurred, when instant gratification superseded the drive to succeed.


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## cavemanslaststand (Jan 6, 2011)

lonelyjew said:


> (more...)
> I do wonder when this change occurred, when instant gratification superseded the drive to succeed.
> (more...)


It happened during the 90s with market bubbles. 3-4% in CDs and T-bills was no longer responsible. In fact, you were constantly told "you were losing to inflation".

Nowadays, B school (which used to be considered a joke and considered not a real skill in the 80s and 90s) is now sexy. Can sort of blame it on popularization of Lee Iococa in the 80s and Al "chain-saw" Dunlap but the bubble was bigger than them too as it was only a matter of time before technology (and the internet) saturated and China and India woke up from ancient cultural practices.


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## cavemanslaststand (Jan 6, 2011)

komorikun said:


> Yeah, a lot of the comments to the article mentioned the job prospects being not so hot. Here are a couple:
> 
> (more...)
> 
> ...


It was funny hearing people talk about "shortages in Ph.D.s escpecially females" back in the 80s/90s while none of the politicians saying it where actively doing nuclear physicists nor pharmacology themselves. Hard science is some combination of intense discipline and depressed neurotic obssession and a gazillion advanced degrees to be remotely useful, besides the fact that scientific equipment and pharmacuetical grade chemicals are now million dollar expenses for R&D that ulmately doesn't look good for some cost-cutter's resume (But hey Al "Chainsaw" Dunlap said we're in business for the shareholders). It's not about the 80s pounding away at cute electronic devices in your garage anymore...

It's easy for a bunch of CheesEOs and politicians to say what sounds good with STEM.


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## cafune (Jan 11, 2011)

lonelyjew said:


> Still though, I'd say that's only half the problem. The fact is that today's culture has lead to Americans becoming lazier. That article talked about premeds having a high attrition rate, they do, but I'd say more often than not it is laziness which kills that dream rather than a lack of ability. Students today don't seem to have the concept of personal responsibility, delayed gratification, and personal sacrifice necessary to succeed. I've had friends who had a great time getting stoned, and going on road trips, and generally living life to the fullest, while at the same time bombing their classes, while I stayed in and studied because I knew what was required of me. A lot of people go into college with their first priority placed on enjoying themselves, and success second, if not lower on the totem pole resulting both in a poor work ethic leading to bad grades, and switching to easier, and often functionally useless degrees in the liberal arts. I do wonder when this change occurred, when instant gratification superseded the drive to succeed.


Honestly blows my mind that this is true for most students. Although I can't say that I'm not lazy, cause I am... but I somehow pull through when it matters.

But you know they did a test for deferred gratification in younger children a couple of years ago actually. A researcher placed a marshmallow in front of each kid, and told them that if they didn't eat it by the time he/she got back, they would get two marshmallows in exchange. Those kids that passed (did not eat the marshmallow and waited for him/her to return) went on to outperform those that didn't in school and the SATs.

The article:
Don't!
The secret of self-control.

---------------------------------------------------

Anyways, this article is pretty discouraging... seeing as those are exactly the fields I'm looking into. If I were to take engineering, I'd get a double major, engineering science (physics) alongside economics. But medical school sounds amazing, although I wouldn't look forward to the bachelor's degree that I'd have to get before applying... such a tedious, drawn-out process. The competition is pretty fierce in both fields. I guess I can look forward to a pretty bleak future. Honestly though, I'm pretty stubborn... I can't see myself dropping before finishing anything.


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## Escape Artist (Aug 23, 2011)

Science weeds out those without passion or hardcore determination at the 300+ level.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

Live Laugh Love said:


> Anyways, this article is pretty discouraging... seeing as those are exactly the fields I'm looking into. If I were to take engineering, I'd get a double major, engineering science (physics) alongside economics. But medical school sounds amazing, although I wouldn't look forward to the bachelor's degree that I'd have to get before applying... such a tedious, drawn-out process. The competition is pretty fierce in both fields. I guess I can look forward to a pretty bleak future. Honestly though, I'm pretty stubborn... I can't see myself dropping before finishing anything.


I can't speak for engineering, because from what I saw some of those classes did look just brutal, but getting into medical school isn't insanely difficult so long as you're dedicated to it. Basically all you have to do is get a good GPA (3.7 or higher), doing well on the MCAT (30-31, or about 80th percentile), and doing some extra curriculars like clinical/nonclinical volunteering, research (you don't need to be published), and leadership positions in clubs/societies. Lastly you need doctor shadowing to show that you're interested, but this is basically just observation, and it's not too hard to set it up.

It sounds daunting but it's not all that bad really once you make the decision to put things first on your list of priorities. As far as getting A's, because you can usually ride a curve, it's not all that hard if you don't blow of studying - I'd say I've only had three of four science classes that I've really had to bust my butt in. As far as the MCAT, it's all about dedication, and not only knowing the material, but understanding the exam. If you put in the time and effort, you'll do well (I gave up a summer for it, but only really went insane the last month of it, and managed to get a good score). The extracurriculars were my weak point because I'm not super social, and I'm not outgoing, but still, they're easy to find and easy to do. I also barely shadowed, again, because SA made me afraid to ask.

And heck, that's to get into an MD program, if you go for DO, the requirements fall significantly. Last year, the average accepted student had a science GPA of only 3.36 (average total GPA was a 3.47) - and they replace bad grades if you retake classes unlike MD programs which average the two - and had an average MCAT of 25.49 (something like 48th percentile), which goes to show just how possible it is to get in if you do the other things necessary of you to get in. DO doctors are functionally no different, it's only harder for them to get into specialty residencies, and they are pretty restricted in practicing abroad, but otherwise no difference.

You also obviously have to be willing to sacrifice another 4 years to medical school, and however many more for residency though.


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## cafune (Jan 11, 2011)

lonelyjew said:


> I can't speak for engineering, because from what I saw some of those classes did look just brutal, but getting into medical school isn't insanely difficult so long as you're dedicated to it. Basically all you have to do is get a good GPA (3.7 or higher), doing well on the MCAT (30-31, or about 80th percentile), and doing some extra curriculars like clinical/nonclinical volunteering, research (you don't need to be published), and leadership positions in clubs/societies. Lastly you need doctor shadowing to show that you're interested, but this is basically just observation, and it's not too hard to set it up.
> 
> It sounds daunting but it's not all that bad really once you make the decision to put things first on your list of priorities. As far as getting A's, because you can usually ride a curve, it's not all that hard if you don't blow of studying - I'd say I've only had three of four science classes that I've really had to bust my butt in. As far as the MCAT, it's all about dedication, and not only knowing the material, but understanding the exam. If you put in the time and effort, you'll do well (I gave up a summer for it, but only really went insane the last month of it, and managed to get a good score). The extracurriculars were my weak point because I'm not super social, and I'm not outgoing, but still, they're easy to find and easy to do. I also barely shadowed, again, because SA made me afraid to ask.
> 
> ...


Right. Thanks for the explanation!

I'm glad that I actually know what is required of me to get into med school. It feels ridiculously nice to have a flashlight while walking into a cave rather than how I usually walk in, with nothing... that was especially true for high school, and entering the IB, and looking into the prestigious bachelor degree programs etc. out there now (and seeing just how much they expect from high school leavers).

And that's actually one of my issues with medicine, you come out of it pretty old... I can't help but think "when will my life begin?" And after med school there's the whole internship, resident, fellowship etc. chain that I'd have to go through. I guess it's all about living life while at school, and managing your time wisely. I can never manage that though... it's either have fun or work hard with me, no real middle ground.


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## The Silent 1 (Aug 21, 2011)

Yeah I've met a lot of bitter Engineering/Science graduates who complain about spending their college years struggling like crazy while everyone else was out partying and having fun. It may have been worth it at first, but now many of them are out of a job or are working in a completely unrelated field. Meanwhile those people that had fun, or at least kept a good balance without having to kill themselves like the science majors are doing fine. There may be hope yet though. I've heard from some people that students have been so discouraged from majoring in Engineering degrees that over the next couple of years there are going to be a surplus of Engineering jobs with not nearly enough graduates to fill them. So an engineering degree may actually be worth it now.


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