# Girls ..how do you feel about modern feminism..is it serving you or making it harder



## kiwikiwi (Jul 27, 2009)

I feel modern feminism has strayed far from the initial purpose of achieving equality for women, and thus making us have even more work and headache than before. The way they look down on women who want to stay home and raise their kids in the old fashioned way it is simply a sign that there is something else at work. I want to have choices, not predestined tasks and obligations that in no way relate to me.

How do see modern feminism ..is it working for you or against you? How about dating, how does it affect it?


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm very grateful for feminism, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do all the stuff that I did. 

You should blame capitalism and not feminism for the need for 2 incomes.


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## kiwikiwi (Jul 27, 2009)

komorikun said:


> I'm very grateful for feminism, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do all the stuff that I did.
> 
> You should blame capitalism and not feminism for the need for 2 incomes.


I am grateful too, like I said the initial movement had it right, capitalism and feminism go hand in hand and as whole they have impacted generations and many times not for the good of all....


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

kiwikiwi said:


> I feel modern feminism has strayed far from the initial purpose of achieving equality for women, and thus making us have even more work and headache than before. The way they look down on women who want to stay home and raise their kids in the old fashioned way it is simply a sign that there is something else at work. I want to have choices, not predestined tasks and obligations that in no way relate to me.


The point of feminism is for women to be able to do the things that men are able to do without any fear of criticism. Anyone who looks down on women who want to stay home probably does not even understand what feminism is about.

However, feminism is also about letting women find their own identity outside of the traditional female roles. I always find it sad and a little disturbing when someone calls herself __________'s wife or __________'s mommy. Fortunately this only happens on myspace, and I haven't been there in a while.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm a guy, and feminism has benefited me greatly. Heck, I probably would never have dated at all if feminism never existed, because each of my girlfriends have asked me out.


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## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

I'm grateful for feminism because it opened up so much opportunities for women. The point of feminism is for women to have choices in life, including being a homemaker.


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## Mirror (Mar 16, 2012)

I'm glad women in the past made a change with the feminist movement, but as for feminism in modern day times... I feel like most everyone has moved past it and now looks at it as a historic movement instead of a continuous project. I mean, I know it's definitely not as prominent, and I feel as if a lot of society now brushes it off as inconsequential. That is to say, I don't feel its presence in modern society except when females get pissed when certain men make snide remarks about sandwiches and getting in the kitchen. Which I try not to let piss me off, but I can't help getting slightly offended...


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

My thoughts on feminism are this

Before, women were expected to maintain the household and take care of the children.

Now, women are expected to WORK, maintain the household and take care of the children.

All the while, (as Oprah even mentions), catering to men's "feelings" about their own masculinity and sense of self worth and not stepping over one's boundaries, cause god forbid we should make our spouse or dad or brother feel like he's not needed.


What are men good for these days anyways? :no Most men are not even men anymore..families are raising their children incredibly pampered and whatnot, feminism should apply to both genders. Women are now assuming the dominant role, as we can see, the media is increasingly leaning towards female power figures, the men are in the background.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

calichick said:


> What are men good for these days anyways?


I'm pretty good at converting O2 to CO2 
And somebody needs to watch all that TV and browse all those many websites.

It would be nice to have options to choose between, but there sadly isn't always.
If you want to stay home and raise kids and if you can afford it, you can, but I'm not sure it's something you can expect in life.
Not as long as we have free market capitalism, at least.
Here, your partner would need to make really a substantial amount to get by on just one income. And from a societal viewpoint, it's of course obvious that 30 people staying home to watch 30 kids is less productive and thus more expensive than 3 (or however many) caretakers in kindergartens looking after the same number of kids.



rednosereindeer said:


> The point of feminism is for women to be able to do the things that men are able to do without any fear of criticism.


Without fear of criticism simply based on gender.
There are many things some men do that I find wrong and I will point that out in women equally, but we should of course have the same opportunities.
No group in society should be subservient to others.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I'm with Bob. 

So many women are asking out guys today, it's great. Now, if I wasn't scared of relationships...?


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

I have ties with a lot of anarchist groups, so feminism is something that I come into contact with fairly constantly through zines and discussion groups and **** like that. I like it, I wish every person had experiences with anarcho-feminism, but whatchugonnado.


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## AtmosphereIsHipHop (Sep 7, 2011)

Modern feminism is LAME. I hate how women are looked down upon. There are even jokes about women... "make me a sammich" and lots more. But the saddest part is women dont stand up for themselves.... there are too many *****s and girls who dont stick up for themselves. women have so much potential to be so powerful but then they just follow everyone else


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## viv (Feb 8, 2009)

Overall, I think feminism has been a great movement. But I think there are some messages coming out of it that are detrimental to women.

Woman are told we *can* do it all - be perfect mothers and wives, have successful careers, take care of the house, and tend to the entire family's social and recreational calendar. As a result, many women feel they *should* do it all, and then there's this shame when they can't live up to all of these unrealistic expectations.


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## Some Russian Guy (Mar 20, 2009)

what's feminism... ?


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

viv said:


> Woman are told we *can* do it all - be perfect mothers and wives, have successful careers, take care of the house, and tend to the entire family's social and recreational calendar. As a result, many women feel they *should* do it all, and then there's this shame when they can't live up to all of these unrealistic expectations.


_"You can be anything you want as long as you are a success!"_
That seems to be the motto in general for an individualist, capitalist society.
We increasingly expect perfection of ourselves and others in everything that we do because our ideas are being formed by fantasies from magazines, films and what we see others doing/capable of in the increasingly large social circles we are part of.
We still haven't learnt that people have value in themselves and that that's why they deserve respect and proper treatment. Instead we're competing with each other for recognition and attention which is bound to make many people stressed and feel inadequate.


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## BarryLyndon (Jun 29, 2010)

I blame Sex and the City


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## BobbyByThePound (Apr 4, 2012)

I know I'm not a woman but I wish feminism impacted our culture more than it did. Treating women like sex objects and reducing them to "****s," "hoes," "*****es," has basically become so normal that I think even a lot of women have gotten used to it. A person might say it's only an issue for rap but music by rappers like Too Short is the uncensored expression of how a lot of men really think.


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## AtmosphereIsHipHop (Sep 7, 2011)

PhilosopherOneDay said:


> I know I'm not a woman but I wish feminism impacted our culture more than it did. Treating women like sex objects and reducing them to "****s," "hoes," "*****es," has basically become so normal that I think even a lot of women have gotten used to it. A person might say it's only an issue for rap but music by rappers like Too Short is the uncensored expression of how a lot of men really think.


exactly


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

As a feminist, I think feminism has given me more options rather than limit them. I don't want to be a mom and a wife, but I don't look down on women who do. There is still a lot of work to be done, because these ideals are still forced on women, which is why some feminists believe that women should choose a different route. But, like I said, I don't see it that way. To each their own.


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## Kathykook (Aug 16, 2011)

I am grateful for third wave feminism. However, women are and will always be different & be treated differently than men. It's a simple fact of nature that can never be changed.


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## HammerAndLife (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't think there should be any social disparity just because one sports either an appendage or an orifice. But it exists anyway because there are chauvinists and feminists. No issues of sexism pertain to my life. Treat people with respect, regardless of their ****ing gender. There need not be any more complication than that.


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## Winds (Apr 17, 2011)

Oh boy :no


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## Hello22 (Feb 10, 2010)

i wish women would stop banging on about feminism tbh


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

eeegadss....what did I just read??? And some say on this forum that people with SAD are sweeter and more sensitive than the average bear....


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

calichick said:


> My thoughts on feminism are this
> 
> Before, women were expected to maintain the household and take care of the children.
> 
> ...


I had to remove and warn a post that responded to this, and I am tempted to warn this one, too.

This boldface statement needs to be reread.


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## meeps (Dec 5, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> I had to remove and warn a post that responded to this


I think you forgot to remove it.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

qweewq said:


> I think you forgot to remove it.


I removed the responding post, but not the one that triggered the response. I will have to remove that one, too.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

millenniumman75 said:


> I had to remove and warn a post that responded to this, and I am tempted to warn this one, too.
> 
> This boldface statement needs to be reread.


lmfao I didn't get to see their post!

I was actually expressing a genuine and valid opinion about society leaning towards increasingly feminine ideals and men becoming less dominant than they once were. I mean people can't even defend themselves nowadays and children are more often than not raised in matriarchal environments where all ideals of masculinity are being torn down.

Anyways I was not trying to offend anyone.

Actually you know why I said that, because I was reading a report awhile ago on the sex hormone estrogen in drinking water and how it was contributing to the "disruption" of the male system, as well as some opinions on school shootings..I think that gender roles are being crossed....


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

calichick said:


> My thoughts on feminism are this
> 
> Before, women were expected to maintain the household and take care of the children.
> 
> ...


I'd urge you to read more book on feminism and consume less corporate entertainment personalities' opinions.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

VanDamMan said:


> I'd urge you to read more book on feminism and consume less corporate entertainment personalities' opinions.


uh have you read feminist literature? It's disturbingly one sided and I'm guessing written by a type of woman who is alienated by men/not sexually attracted to men. I read the early 20th century novel Herland which is considered a significant contribution to feminism..

I prefer to go by my own observations/findings which tell me what I've mentioned in my above 2 posts. I think that it's absolutely ironic that men are being "estrogenized" .....Like what does the fact that "About 80% of 139 U.S. rivers are contaminated with trace estrogen compounds" REALLY mean. Where is the male gender headed?

It's a scary thought. :lol

ha Millenniumman, What do you say to this, men are becoming less "male"

"Estrogens in Plastic Water and Soda Bottles Affect Our Boys
The established American habit of drinking water or soda from plastic bottles is also one of the causes of a tendency of many boys to lose their drive and fail to grow up, according to a doctor-researcher. Leonard Sax, MD, PhD, says the synthetic estrogens found in plastics additives have been feminizing our boys and pushing our girls into precocious puberty.

In his 2007 book Boys Adrift, Sax describes five major factors contributing to what he calls a growing epidemic of unmotivated boys and underachieving young men. One of these five is environmental estrogens from drinks stored in plastic bottles, including baby bottles. Baby toys and pacifiers have contained the stuff too. What stuff? BPA and phthalates, used to soften and condition the plastic. Plastic bottles with recycling #1, used for bottled water and soda, are a key culprit.

Scientists are aware that the chemicals are environmental estrogens, and have focused on their tendency to cause cancer. Animal studies pinpointed the amount that would cause cancer in animals, and acceptable dose limits were created from those studies.

He poses the question: does taking estrogen affect boys and men? In recent years many Americans have been getting their water out of plastic bottles. And soda has been sold in plastic bottles rather than aluminum cans. As a result, Americans find themselves in a big experiment on this question. Aside from whether the plastic additives cause cancer, Sax says he believes they are causing delayed puberty and lost motivation.

The result of the extra estrogens, along with four other factors, is affecting a population of men who haven't grown up, says Sax. He cites some interesting studies. One looks at men in the age group of 35 to 40. Normally, men this age are married. In fact, only 25 years ago, only 8 percent of American men in this age group had never married. But as of 2006 that 8 percent had nearly tripled. It was up to 22 percent and still rising rapidly. (He cites Eduardo Porter and Michelle O'Donnell, "Facing Middle Age with No Degree and No Wife," New York Times, Aug. 6, 2006.)

The proportion of men aged 18-35 living at home with parents or relatives has doubled in the last 30 years. Meanwhile 36 percent of babies in the United States in 2004 were born to unmarried women. These statistics cut across all demographic groups.

Congress last year passed a law directing the Consumer Product Safety Commission to ban one of the estrogen additives, phthalates, from products sold for children as of August, 2009, including pacifiers and baby bottles."

*"Estrogen contamination from products such as birth control and estrogen therapy 
has led to possible health concerns when consumed from drinking water sources. It is unhealthy for the human body, animals, and the environment, causing feminization in humans and the birth of more females."*

http://www.scientiareview.org


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

****Thread Lock Watch****
Three warnings and one infraction have been issued at this point.
Any references to telling women to get back in the kitchen will get an infraction and possible further action.

You may or may not agree with some of things in this thread, but that doesn't mean derailing it with troll posts.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

calichick said:


> The proportion of men aged 18-35 living at home with parents or relatives has doubled in the last 30 years. Meanwhile 36 percent of babies in the United States in 2004 were born to unmarried women. These statistics cut across all demographic groups.


Don't you think this has more to do with the economy sucking?


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

...yeah, that article sounds so bizarrely unscientific I had to google the last bolded part.

As it turns out, the source of that claim is a science fair report done by a high school kid named Luke Dery. His favorite band is Green Day. I wonder what grade he got on that report.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

BobtheSaint said:


> Don't you think this has more to do with the economy sucking?


Nope not at all. The study was referencing the LAST 30 years, and in the last 30 years, the unemployment rates have been nothing compared to say, the years of the Great Depression.



rednosereindeer said:


> ...yeah, that article sounds so bizarrely unscientific I had to google the last bolded part.
> 
> As it turns out, the source of that claim is a science fair report done by a high school kid named Luke Dery. His favorite band is Green Day. I wonder what grade he got on that report.


Yea, as it turns out, those are two separate articles, (the huge chunk is from water filter something or other .com) and both of them include reputable sources. Just google, estrogen + effects on male population and see all the scientific studies. 

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/st...er-from-the-pill-devastating-to-fish-populati

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/143994.php

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6436617/ns/nightly_news/t/male-fish-becoming-female/

http://www.bu.edu/sjmag/scimag2005/features/drugsinwater.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090118200636.htm

http://kathryn-picoulin.suite101.co...les-disrupting-male-and-female-hormon-a232123

http://voices.yahoo.com/estrogen-levels-water-alarm-scientists-4678515.html?cat=58

"In an experiment conducted in the United States, 80 percent of the rivers involved held contaminated [estrogen] water."

"It should be noted that the effects of estrogens are hardly limited to women. "Environmental estrogens are not good for men, women or the environment," Snedeker said. While they do not affect men as much in regards to cancer, studies *have shown that BPA affects sexual development in men by altering the maturation and function of their sperm."*

http://cornellsun.com/node/40061

happy?

by the way I love how I went from feminism to feminization...lol


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

calichick said:


> happy?


Oh I'm never happy, but just out of common courtesy I'd like to point out that only two of those links lead to a website I'd consider reliable. And I couldn't help but notice that the studies involved fish, not human beings.

As an alternative, I tried googling "effects of estrogen in water on men." Nothing came up, thank god. I'm still in the loop.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

rednosereindeer said:


> Oh I'm never happy, but just out of common courtesy I'd like to point out that only two of those links lead to a website I'd consider reliable. And I couldn't help but notice that the studies involved fish, not human beings.
> 
> As an alternative, I tried googling "effects of estrogen in water on men." Nothing came up, thank god. I'm still in the loop.


I would just pay attention to the Cornell Sun honestly. Ivy League good enough for you?

And yea, why exactly do you think they're researching fish? Let's not think too hard about this one. Fish concentrate the chemicals in the water that makes it's way to our source of drinking water and they are good evidence of the exact substances. The water treatment facilities don't remove 100% of the chemicals, and it only takes a SMALL amount of it to pose hazards to anyone's health. (I mean think about it, the amount of estrogen in birth control pills is standard dose 30 to 35 mcg, very small concentrations of the hormone).

Plus, it's not only estrogen in drinking water, but in plastics, in containers, in the whole environment.

Men are becoming more feminine...


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

calichick said:


> The proportion of men aged 18-35 living at home with parents or relatives has doubled in the last 30 years. Meanwhile 36 percent of babies in the United States in 2004 were born to unmarried women. These statistics cut across all demographic groups.
> 
> Congress last year passed a law directing the Consumer Product Safety Commission to ban one of the estrogen additives, phthalates, from products sold for children as of August, 2009, including pacifiers and baby bottles."
> 
> ...


You would think there would be less children born out of wedlock if men were feminized though since they'd be more willing to commit. I've read that men with high testosterone levels are more likely to divorce and more likely to cheat on their wife. And fatherhood leads to a drop in testosterone (if they take care of the kid that is).

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/health/research/13testosterone.html



> The study, experts say, suggests that men's bodies evolved hormonal systems that helped them commit to their families once children were born. It also suggests that men's behavior can affect hormonal signals their bodies send, not just that hormones influence behavior. And, experts say, it underscores that mothers were meant to have child care help.
> 
> "This is part of the guy being invested in the marriage," said Carol Worthman, an anthropologist at Emory University who also was not involved in the study. Lower testosterone, she said, is the father's way of saying, " 'I'm here, I'm not looking around, I'm really toning things down so I can have good relationships.' What's great about this study is it lays it on the table that more is not always better. Faster, bigger, stronger - no, not always."
> 
> ...


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

komorikun said:


> You would think there would be less children born out of wedlock if men were feminized though since they'd be more willing to commit. I've read that men with high testosterone levels are more likely to divorce and more likely to cheat on their wife. And fatherhood leads to a drop in testosterone (if they take care of the kid that is).
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/health/research/13testosterone.html


High levels of testosterone are associated with a higher sex drive naturally, which might cause men to cheat more often, however high levels of estrogen in a man won't make him more likely to commit. There's a missing link there. A low sex drive and lack of motivation as a result of higher levels of estrogen in males does not imply more willingness to commit. The study examined unmarried women, not single women, nor women who were cheated on.

Commitment stems from different things such as high levels of the hormone Oxytocin, and biological factors and upbringing/childhood/trauma, etc.

"*the biological basis of monogamy*" is the issue that you're talking about, and is linked to neurochemistry (serotonin and oxytocin), psychological factors, among other things.

Reducing commitment issues to how high of a sex drive a person has is too basic. Yes a guy is horny, his wife isn't giving him what he wants, he cheats. But if a guy isn't in the mood ever, doesn't make him more likely to marry. Actually can cause him depression and a wealth of other problems. A low sex drive is not healthy for a normal functioning person.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

HammerAndLife said:


> I don't think there should be any social disparity just because one sports either an appendage or an orifice. *But it exists anyway because there are chauvinists and feminists.* No issues of sexism pertain to my life. Treat people with respect, regardless of their ****ing gender. There need not be any more complication than that.


I think you got the order of succession incorrectly. Feminism came to be because there exists chauvinism and sexism. The gender disparity is not due to feminism. Feminism is working against that. 



Hello22 said:


> i wish women would stop banging on about feminism tbh


Why? Because equal pay and sexual reproductive health have only resulted in social regression? Yeah, these darn feminist and their silly ideas of equality!



BobtheSaint said:


> Don't you think this has more to do with the economy sucking?


Word.



rednosereindeer said:


> *Oh I'm never happy,* but just out of common courtesy I'd like to point out that only two of those links lead to a website I'd consider reliable. And I couldn't help but notice that the studies involved fish, not human beings.
> 
> As an alternative, I tried googling "effects of estrogen in water on men." Nothing came up, thank god. I'm still in the loop.


*Insert rant about how all feminists are angry militant women here*

:lol


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## Hello22 (Feb 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> I think you got the order of succession incorrectly. Feminism came to be because there exists chauvinism and sexism. The gender disparity is not due to feminism. Feminism is working against that.
> 
> *Why? Because equal pay *and sexual reproductive health have only resulted in social regression? Yeah, these darn feminist and their silly ideas of equality!
> 
> ...


Equal pay? I don't think so hun. Also where i work, they hire mainly males because of the possibility of females going on maternity leave, that's a fact. And i work for an american multi national, they don't give a rat's a*** about feminisim, just profits. So no, i don't think feminism has altered my life in a dramatic way, and i really dislike the agenda being brought up so much.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Hello22 said:


> Equal pay? I don't think so hun. Also where i work, they hire mainly males because of the possibility of females going on maternity leave, that's a fact. And i work for an american multi national, they don't give a rat's a*** about feminisim, just profits. So no, i don't think feminism has altered my life in a dramatic way, and i really dislike the agenda being brought up so much.


Have you ever heard of the Lily Ledbetter fair pay act, hun? Exactly why feminism is needed, yet you're oh-so tired of hearing the F-word.


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## Hello22 (Feb 10, 2010)

AllToAll said:


> Have you ever heard of the Lily Ledbetter fair pay act, hun? Exactly why feminism is needed, yet you're oh-so tired of hearing the F-word.


See this is why i never get involved in debates on here, it's *my opinion* that feminism is talked about too much on here, so if you don't like my opinion then too bad - and it's a fact women don't always get paid the same as men, so that 'fair pay' act doesn't really matter.

The title of the thread was 'girls - how do you feel about modern feminism' - i gave my opinion; that i think women bang on about it too much and i didn't quote anyone else on here until you decided to disagree with me in a condescending tone.

But really i should know better than to get involved in these stupid debates on this forum, cos god forbid would i have a different opinion to any one else here


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## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

Well I'm a fan of modern feminism.


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

I think that second wave feminism was actually harmful- both for feminists and for society as a whole. But most modern feminists are not radical feminists, and when you consider all of the legislature in the past year trying to limit women's contraception and abortion rights? Modern feminism is very important when it comes to combating that.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

****Thread Lock Watch****
Things are getting a bit heated in here. Chill out or infractions will be issued.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Feminism has made all the difference in my life. I came from a very gender role oriented country, Russia, and have internalized a lot of the messed up messages that were instilled in me. Something inside me always told me that something was wrong but I never really knew what because this was my reality, and my family supported it. When I learned about feminism, I realized how sexist my family is, and what it has made of me. This has led to a huge change, lots of re thinking and new found confidence.


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

calichick said:


> My thoughts on feminism are this
> 
> Before, women were expected to maintain the household and take care of the children.
> 
> ...


I'm not clear how you want men to be still.

Men aren't allowed feelings? We should remain 'tough guys' like the archetype old movies? Because that is a huge turn off socially and romantically, that's fantasy.

So these days men are a bit more open and called soft or *****s, excuse the female genitalia reference on a thread about feminism. That doesn't work either.

'Nice guys' LOL! They are tret like crap.

Men don't help with their childrens upbringing, or household tasks? Do you not think part of the 'what are men good for?' attitude is a part of the problem? At least partially, that society devalues the typical male role at times?

Single mothers are purely the mans fault? Because some teenage girls don't dream of babies and deliberately get pregnant, or aren't aware of contraception?

I really don't know what you want.

There's a very real gender war going on these days and mixed messages from women, what exactly it is that they want. I think personally, most women on the surface say they 'want' a nice, responsible guy but really want a guy with good conversation, can talk crap to them and make them feel good etc, superficial traits and so men keep being douches and women keep being hypnotised and the crap cycle continues. Blame women for selecting for it too. They are active in this as well.


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

What a nice thread we have going on here!


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

I seriously wish somebody made a feminist dating site. I'm not into dating sites but I would join this in a heartbeat.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

alissaxvanity said:


> I seriously wish somebody made a feminist dating site. I'm not into dating sites but I would join this in a heartbeat.


I'd totally agree, I'd join that too.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

BobtheSaint said:


> I'd totally agree, I'd join that too.


Hayyy8):wink:squeeze:love


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## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

alissaxvanity said:


> I seriously wish somebody made a feminist dating site. I'm not into dating sites but I would join this in a heartbeat.


I'd join it 2!


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

low said:


> *Single mothers are purely the mans fault?* Because some teenage girls don't dream of babies and deliberately get pregnant, or aren't aware of contraception?


uh I didn't say anything about single mothers in my post, but this statement seems pretty ignorant.

Are men aware of contraception or do the women really have to do everything?

Reinforces my original post...........good for nothings.....lol

Oh and I wasn't talking about _nice_ guys.. I was talking about overly sensitive men. Men who act like girls. I know a few and it's really unappealing..


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

calichick said:


> uh I didn't say anything about single mothers in my post, but this statement seems pretty ignorant.


Look, your original post pretty much said women go to work then come home and look after the kids, implying they do the huge load of the work, or solely, and men are big emotional useless babies now. You just wrote it_. _I don't think I took *that* much of a liberty applying the single mother argument, which by the gist of your writings is something close to how you see the majority of mothers in practical terms, even if they are with a man in anycase.


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

calichick said:


> Oh and I wasn't talking about _nice_ guys.. I was talking about overly sensitive men. Men who act like girls. I know a few and it's really unappealing..


Can you truely blame them when you have harpies screaching:



calichick said:


> Reinforces my original post...........*good for nothings.....lol*





calichick said:


> *men's "feelings"*





calichick said:


> *What are men good for these days anyways?*





calichick said:


> *Most men are not even men anymore*


I see a lot of insulting and grand theories for causation but still, you don't really explain what you want in a practical sense.

I'm trying to point out that men are sent so many mixed messages these days as to how to act (which, arguably is already power to the female sex if we go down the sexual selection route) and it's confusing.

There's a ...(and I know you never wrote this so don't accuse me of strawmaning you) 'get on with it' 'suck it up' 'be a man' attitude, sort of what I'm getting from you in your attitude.

This spills over a lot of the time to valid complaints. And nice guy theory does relate, it's most definately relevant, because all of these harpies complaining 'oh he's a jerk, he dumped me after sex' 'I don't know what I saw in the guy'. Fine. I hate guys like that too. They are buttholes but stop going for those types of guys, it's all surface, extraversion crap. Stop being hypnotised. Stop _selecting_ for them, and I'm not talking about 'you' personally but it's a common crap cycle. Women are active in the process too. Then 'nice guys' who are being given all of these messages to be polite, be helpful, be a good guy who indeed are, I will grant you, more sensitive, as you state because they are listening or that's their personality, or the messages they are being sent are being penalised on the other side of the scale for being 'overly sensitive'. They are deemed as unmanly.


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> I seriously wish somebody made a feminist dating site. I'm not into dating sites but I would join this in a heartbeat.


I won't make the mistake of calling dating sites feminist but I would say that women already have the majority of choice when it comes to online dating. Seeing as they recieve a much higher proportion of messages and approaches. Granted they have to put up with all of the horny freaks and rude messages. On the other hand men are actively competing against other men in far greater competition, seen as it's _generally_ societal acceptance for males to do the approaching.

*I state generally before anyone gets on their high horse. I don't claim it a strict rule


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

low said:


> Look, your original post pretty much said *women go to work then come home and look after the kids, implying they do the huge load of the work, or solely, and men are big emotional useless babies now.*


Yes, that is exactly what I was getting at.

But then you proceed to say that single mother's are the result of a female wanting a child, and through sheer selfishness, had the baby, by deliberately forgoing contraception, behind the father's back......

And I don't really see what that has to do with me saying guys are useless. Cause your post pretty much reinforced my point, so I thank you for that.



low said:


> I see a lot of insulting and grand theories for causation but still, you don't really explain what you want in a practical sense.


I want a guy who is a power figure, and the opposite of a wimpy, immature little boy. That's all I'm asking for.

I know both types. There are two types of guys in this world, the boys vs the men. The boys can go be boys, preferably not near me, I like to surround myself with real men...They don't need to be told what to do, they just are instinctively male. Can I define instinctively male? Yes I could, but it would be too superficial for most of you to hear.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

low said:


> I won't make the mistake of calling dating sites feminist but I would say that women already have the majority of choice when it comes to online dating. Seeing as they recieve a much higher proportion of messages and approaches. Granted they have to put up with all of the horny freaks and rude messages. On the other hand men are actively competing against other men in far greater competition, seen as it's _generally_ societal acceptance for males to do the approaching.
> 
> *I state generally before anyone gets on their high horse. I don't claim it a strict rule


That has nothing to do with what I said. I mean a dating site geared towards men and women who share one thing in common, they agree with feminist values. That's what I'd sign up for in a heart beat.



BananaCat said:


> At the same time, I do see many self-proclaimed voices of feminism in this country who spend much time bitterly and hypocritically berating the entire male half of the human race, so I do not identify myself as a part of the feminist movement because of what it has come to stand for. I just can't spend that much time being angry and irritated.


No it hasn't. It never came to stand for hating men just because they are men, because that is duh, sexist. I really don't understand people who think like that.
As far as the being angry and irritated part, sure, feminists are irritated. Why shouldn't we be when so much injustice still happens? any sane person would be pissed off by that. There isn't enough Valium in the world to drug myself enough NOT to be irritated by sexism.



calichick said:


> Yes, that is exactly what I was getting at.
> 
> But then you proceed to say that single mother's are the result of a female wanting a child, and through sheer selfishness, had the baby, by deliberately forgoing contraception, behind the father's back......
> 
> ...


Oh.dear.god
Yeah, It's way too early for this. I'm sure somebody with more energy can take this one.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

alissaxvanity said:


> Oh.dear.god
> Yeah, It's way too early for this. I'm sure somebody with more energy can take this one.


There's nothing to take as i wasn't talking to you.:roll


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

calichick said:


> Yes, that is exactly what I was getting at.
> 
> But then you proceed to say that single mother's are the result of a female wanting a child, and through sheer selfishness, had the baby, by deliberately forgoing contraception, behind the father's back......


I thought I underlined some. Must be going mad.



Ansgar said:


> You refered to us: "most of you". That was a challenge. Now go on, tell us how a real man is like.


She wants a _power figure_ a powerful man who goes to the gym with a good body, but isn't a 'gym head' to the point of arrogance or narcissism or seeking appraisal for his physical prowess. A powerful man in the sense of an alpha, one who leads whom other men look up to but he isn't allowed the traits of dominance or imtimidation or arrogance normally associated in that role, because that would be _boy_. Nor should he acknowledge his prowess, he just exuberates _real manliness._

No man is his master or tells him what to do. The real man gets everything right, because he just knows what to do. Sort of like _an instinct._ Do make the distinction: This is not because he is sensitive and attentive though as that would make him less of a man. Nor is it because he has _feelings_. As he certainly doesn't. Nor is he the closed off strong silent type, because that would be regarded as _boy'_ too. Somehow, he just gets everything right...because he's a real man.

He's into typical man things I suppose, cars and sport, but he isn't a boy racer or tribal, as that would be _boy_ also. He's more of a James Bond (but American of course). Or a rich club owner (because he's successeful and rich and awesome and stuff).

Real man naturally would have to stick up for himself. Fortunately he never has to. As that would be paradoxically unmanly, whiney and over sensitive at the same time. Despite all of this he still manages to be exciting somehow.

Despite all of real mans achievements, he is still after all just a man and although he has no apparent flaws is ultimately good for nothing.


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> That has nothing to do with what I said. I mean a dating site geared towards men and women who share one thing in common, they agree with feminist values. That's what I'd sign up for in a heart beat.


I know that's not what you wrote and I didn't mean to make it out to be, if that's how you took it?

I was just trying to point out that in practicality women for most part already have the power when it comes to dating.

and, I have read your posts and I get that you differentiate feminism with sexism. I'm not calling them the same thing.

However unfortunately, consequently, on a practical basis there are a lot of harpies that use the banner of feminism in their military exploits of penile subjugation. In reality I think the scales of equality would only tip further.

...Can't we just call it equal rights or humanist dating or something like that?


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

It's not me who differentiates them, they are polar opposites of each other. 
In what way do women have the power in dating? 
I have never met a woman who hated men and called it a feminist thing, in fact all I hear is men talking about how evil feminists are. I haven't actually met any of these evil feminists though, funny how that happens.
No, we can't call it humanist dating because humanist isn't a movement. Feminism is, because there is male privilege, not female. That's why women are the central of it, because historically men weren't the ones being oppressed.



calichick said:


> There's nothing to take as i wasn't talking to you.:roll


you are on a public forum, you are speaking to everybody.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

low said:


> She wants a _power figure_ a powerful man who goes to the gym with a good body, but isn't a 'gym head' to the point of arrogance or narcissism or seeking appraisal for his physical prowess. A powerful man in the sense of an alpha, one who leads whom other men look up to but he isn't allowed the traits of dominance or imtimidation or arrogance normally associated in that role, because that would be _boy_. Nor should he acknowledge his prowess, he just exuberates _real manliness._
> 
> No man is his master or tells him what to do. The real man gets everything right, because he just knows what to do. Sort of like _an instinct._ Do make the distinction: This is not because he is sensitive and attentive though as that would make him less of a man. Nor is it because he has _feelings_. As he certainly doesn't. Nor is he the closed off strong silent type, because that would be regarded as _boy'_ too. Somehow, he just gets everything right...because he's a real man.
> 
> ...


You get it, why did you need to ask me? :teeth



calichick said:


> Confident, but not arrogant.
> Smart, but not condescending.
> Funny and witty, but not overbearing.
> Sensitive, but not sappy.
> ...


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

BobtheSaint said:


> I'm a guy, and feminism has benefited me greatly. Heck, I probably would never have dated at all if feminism never existed, because each of my girlfriends have asked me out.





WintersTale said:


> So many women are asking out guys today, it's great.


That's assuming a guy gets asked out. Many don't, and so this just makes them feel worse.

Also, ib4lockopcorn


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## Alexa10 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Feminism *

I support feminism. I don't like how misogynistic republican men like to pull out the strawhat feminist and say that we're all man-hating incubators, when they really have seen us les than human only untill the last century... They are trying to take away our rights to abortion and birth control. They can go f***k themselves. Why can't we take away their rights of viagra? The Republican party is anti-woman.

Pro-choice is about letting the woman make her own decisions, not about the government telling women what to do. So yes, despite all the mansplainin' that us women make it impossible for them to find dates because they don't like men being cordial towards women (why can't people be cordial to everybody, and let it be ok for people to accept/not accept the curtusy?); we still need feminism. Really badly, what with the ultra-Christian-religious party that are the Republicans. If you're pro-republican, you're anti-woman, simple as that. Don't even get me started on how many monstrostities that organized religion such as Christianity and Islam has had over the centuries... Republicans are using the religious freedom and pro-liars to hide the real issue, the war on feminists and women.

And no, a fetus isn't a baby. If that was the case, then the worm that was in the Alien movies in people's body could happen in real life (I'm know I'm kinda doing Godwin's law here, but listen please) but we couldn't abort it, because it's a babeh too!!!1!!

Why do women have to wear clothing that isn't revealing, but men can, if men are so damn strong? C'mon fundie and misogynistic men, actually be strong and don't give into your desires like wild animals in mating season. Don't **** sham and say it's our fault for wearing revealing clothing when you're supposed to be super strong supermen. Yes, that means holding in your sexual desires, le gasp! Why can men be passionate about these issues, but because since I'm a woman, I'm seen as angry? Is it because of that traditional negative stereotype that a good, ideal woman is obedient and quiet? Wtf is wrong with the 21st century?

*This post is only directed at anti-feminists, fundies, misogynistic men, conservatives, and "traditionalists".* Not the sane men. But watch people not read the whole post.

Watch 1 of the male mods try and shut this thread up because the misogynistic men can't take critcism in 3, 2, 1...


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

I have actually had a thread shut down, which didn't have any actual fighting or disrespect, simply because the topic was my frustration with sexism. I wasn't impressed.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Alexa10 said:


> I support feminism. I don't like how misogynistic republican men like to pull out the strawhat feminist and say that we're all man-hating incubators, when they really have seen us les than human only untill the last century... They are trying to take away our rights to abortion and birth control. They can go f***k themselves. Why can't we take away their rights of viagra? The Republican party is anti-woman.
> 
> Pro-choice is about letting the woman make her own decisions, not about the government telling women what to do. So yes, despite all the mansplainin' that us women make it impossible for them to find dates because they don't like men being cordial towards women (why can't people be cordial to everybody, and let it be ok for people to accept/not accept the curtusy?); we still need feminism. Really badly, what with the ultra-Christian-religious party that are the Republicans. If you're pro-republican, you're anti-woman, simple as that. Don't even get me started on how many monstrostities that organized religion such as Christianity and Islam has had over the centuries... Republicans are using the religious freedom and pro-liars to hide the real issue, the war on feminists and women.
> 
> ...


Misandry is just as bad as misogyny. I would bet some women would be just as offended at how far you took this post. It's a gender war statement and it is something we have had to clamp down on in recent months.

We have the right to say NO, too. Real men treat women fairly and still stand up for themselves when the need arises. If we were allowed to say no (thank you so much, society!), having Maury show storylines would not be as common, aiight?!

Now cool it or there will be a lock and action taken - this thread is already under a lock watch some pages ago!


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> We have the right to say NO, too. Real men treat women fairly and still stand up for themselves when the need arises. If we were allowed to say no (thank you so much, society!), having Maury show storylines would not be as common, aiight?!


:clap:clap


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## The Silent 1 (Aug 21, 2011)

The term "real man" needs to be deleted from our vocabulary. Instead we should replace it with "good man" since thats usually what we mean, but by using that kind of language we are carrying on a somewhat outdated, sexist overtone. People who use "real man" are calling someone's manhood in question whether they mean to or not. There are no real men and fake men, there are only men who can be good or bad.


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## Shoelaces (Dec 30, 2011)

The Silent 1 said:


> The term "real man" needs to be deleted from our vocabulary. Instead we should replace it with "good man" since thats usually what we mean, but by using that kind of language we are carrying on a somewhat outdated, sexist overtone. People who use "real man" are calling someone's manhood in question whether they mean to or not. There are no real men and fake men, there are only men who can be good or bad.


You beat me to it. Let's not reinforce gender roles, please, and instead try to reduce the gap between sexes. We'll get along a lot better.

It really irks me how a caring, kind - in other words what the society would consider, a feminine man, is somehow something to not aspire to, like it's a disease when you perhaps have less testosterone in your system. Like if we blur the line between our genders the world will suddenly grumble and explode. So what if people become more androgynous? Why is it that an otherwise feminine, delicate woman with short hair suddenly "looks like a man"? No, they do not. And what's the big deal even if they look a bit more boyish? Why can't a guy wear a fricking skirt if they wish to do so, and why does it automatically make him gay - And for God's sake, is it necessary to say "He must be gay" like it's still oh so unholy in the 21st century to be GAY.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

ShoeLaces and TheSilent
yes yes yes and more yes

On a slightly related to
I'm actually thinking of spending money on making a custom t shirt with the saying "Feminist boys are hot". I'm sure it's going to start a few interesting conversations, and more than a few angry stares. But I can deal.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

alissaxvanity said:


> I'm actually thinking of spending money on making a custom t shirt with the saying "Feminist boys are hot". I'm sure it's going to start a few interesting conversations, and more than a few angry stares. But I can deal.


Alissa, you flatter me. :yes


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

alissaxvanity said:


> I have actually had a thread shut down, which didn't have any actual fighting or disrespect, simply because the topic was my frustration with sexism. I wasn't impressed.


A thread about feminism="gender wars" according to some mods around these parts. Mostly due to the fact that a lot of male users take it personally when the term sexism is used as if it was only meant to describe men.



The Silent 1 said:


> The term "real man" needs to be deleted from our vocabulary. Instead we should replace it with "good man" since thats usually what we mean, but by using that kind of language we are carrying on a somewhat outdated, sexist overtone. People who use "real man" are calling someone's manhood in question whether they mean to or not. There are no real men and fake men, there are only men who can be good or bad.





Shoelaces said:


> You beat me to it. Let's not reinforce gender roles, please, and instead try to reduce the gap between sexes. We'll get along a lot better.
> 
> It really irks me how a caring, kind - in other words what the society would consider, a feminine man, is somehow something to not aspire to, like it's a disease when you perhaps have less testosterone in your system. Like if we blur the line between our genders the world will suddenly grumble and explode. So what if people become more androgynous? Why is it that an otherwise feminine, delicate woman with short hair suddenly "looks like a man"? No, they do not. And what's the big deal even if they look a bit more boyish? Why can't a guy wear a fricking skirt if they wish to do so, and why does it automatically make him gay - And for God's sake, is it necessary to say "He must be gay" like it's still oh so unholy in the 21st century to be GAY.


:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap

Overdose of clapping smilies!


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Yeah, the term gender wars is thrown out way too much. It makes it sound as though the mere mention that there IS a problem with sexism is somehow "inviting conflict". Whose fault is it if certain people cannot take hearing the truth, and discussing it like adults?


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> It makes it sound as though the mere mention that there IS a problem with sexism is somehow "inviting conflict".


The problem isn't mentioning that there is sexism, but rather the ways in which people sometimes argue.



The Silent 1 said:


> The term "real man" needs to be deleted from our vocabulary. Instead we should replace it with "good man" since thats usually what we mean, but by using that kind of language we are carrying on a somewhat outdated, sexist overtone.


I don't see how "good man" avoids that problem. "Good man" implies quality of that manliness/manhood, which is really the same.
It's not just a problem with debates of gender roles though, people are often talked about as being monsters or beasts which seemingly tries to strip them of their personhood.
All we can really talk about is behaviour we will accept or whether or not it follows certain moral guidelines.


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

Milco said:


> The problem isn't mentioning that there is sexism, but rather the ways in which people sometimes argue.


Basically any time the issue of gender comes up on here, it's going to turn into a gender flame war and people are going to be angry and hurt.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Witan said:


> Basically any time the issue of gender comes up on here, it's going to turn into a gender flame war and people are going to be angry and hurt.


You bet. Gender wars are a waste of energy because no one wins.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Witan said:


> Basically any time the issue of gender comes up on here, it's going to turn into a gender flame war and people are going to be angry and hurt.


Yeah, I know :\
And I guess it's understandable since it's something many people have very strong opinions on and which in some regards have to do with personal identity, but there are still ways to keep the thread fairly civil and without them spinning out of control.
It usually takes an attack one way or the other (and often more than just one) for things to get derailed.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Notice how people who attack are the ones who have very rigid views, usually support traditional gender roles, and hate anyone who does not agree. I am passionate about this, but I somehow find it in myself not to be a douche. I mean, I do mock some people's posts, but I always make a point while I do it.


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> It's not me who differentiates them, they are polar opposites of each other.


Yes I've been trying to agree with you. You don't seem to acknowledge my actual point.



alissaxvanity said:


> In what way do women have the power in dating?


On a practical basis women absolutely have power in dating. Men are expected to approach and generally loose out if they don't. On dating sites men have to compete with other men on a vaster scale as they are still culturally subjected to having to take the proactive role in dating. I.e. Men must send mails more proactively, women generally do not, and as such have greater 'choice' or power in the selection process. Dating sites will confirm this in their mailing statistics.

Then there is bias in employment status, living arrangement, salary, social status. Then there is personal trait bias, largely favourably towards extraversion and accentuated by women generally too snobbish to approach or derogatory in attitude towards introvert types.

*Note that I do not state all men/women before someone complains. I am not categorising a strict set of rules. I am writing about general practical basis.
*Note that I do not blame this on feminism. I only highlight the practical situation. Where women already have the majority of choice and men are often undermined, I do not see a great need or fairness of feminist dating sites.

If feminism is in part about breaking down traditional gender role and allows women to be more forthcoming in approaching, and less superficial in selecting traits then I would support it.



alissaxvanity said:


> No, we can't call it humanist dating because humanist isn't a movement. Feminism is, because there is male privilege, not female. That's why women are the central of it, because historically men weren't the ones being oppressed.


Though I'm not an active physical participant myself (i.e. I'm not a demonstrator, blogger, attendee) I am active in virtual atheistic and rationality movements which fall under humanism. So I have to tell you that you are misinformed there.
I could offer several examples of female privilege and current male oppression too.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Well, just as I thought, you do support feminism, only as long as you see how it benefits you. I'm not going to argue with you about this, because I've heard this spiel before, believe me. Women are still oppressed, there is not equality, and there sure as hell isn't female privilege. I'm sick of hearing this, that is just such an ignorant thing to say to defend the things we're trying to fight against. Don't want a feminist dating site? great, we don't want you either, since it would be for actual people with equality as their moral grounding.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

low said:


> On a practical basis women absolutely have power in dating. Men are expected to approach and generally loose out if they don't. On dating sites men have to compete with other men on a vaster scale as they are still culturally subjected to having to take the proactive role in dating. I.e. Men must send mails more proactively, women generally do not, and as such have greater 'choice' or power in the selection process. Dating sites will confirm this in their mailing statistics.


No, they do not. Any attention given out like candy is going have less value. They're not owed your attention, you don't have to approach anyone you don't want.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

BobtheSaint said:


> No, they do not. Any attention given out like candy is going have less value.


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying..
Are you suggesting some supply/demand type of value to attention, so that if people readily give you attention it is worth less than if people only rarely give you attention and thus the two are still balanced?
I'm probably grossly misinterpreting what you meant, but I'm not sure what you did mean.

There are some areas where men hold the upper hand and there are some areas where women hold the upper hand. The more free we are to do what we please and follow our own desires and wants, the more that will be the case when viewing the statistics as a whole.
But your gender holding the upper hand in some field does not matter to the individual that still encounters insurmountable obstacles in that area, and thus statistics really cannot be applied to the individual as such.
As I'm sure it has been pointed out many times in this thread already, we are not simply the personification of our gender, but actual individuals ourselves.
But we still have to recognise the actual differences in order to paint an accurate picture and to know how to push it in the direction we want to go.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Milco said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying..
> Are you suggesting some supply/demand type of value to attention, so that if people readily give you attention it is worth less than if people only rarely give you attention and thus the two are still balanced?
> I'm probably grossly misinterpreting what you meant, but I'm not sure what you did mean.


I apologize for leaving that out...yes, that's what I meant.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Deleted


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> Well, just as I thought, you do support feminism, only as long as you see how it benefits you. I'm not going to argue with you about this, because I've heard this spiel before, believe me. Women are still oppressed, there is not equality, and there sure as hell isn't female privilege. I'm sick of hearing this, that is just such an ignorant thing to say to defend the things we're trying to fight against. Don't want a feminist dating site? great, we don't want you either, since it would be for actual people with equality as their moral grounding.


You state it like it's so wrong, so selfish. You don't support feminism for your own (the female sex) benefit? I'm for equal rites/opportunity so long as it's fair.

I know women are oppressed still, I'm quite aware of it. As men are becoming oppressed culturally. _The harpies_ previous testaments and attitude are evidence of that.

You assume ignorance on my part but when have I belittled specific feminism issues in the thread? I have only brought attention to male issues which some members of the 'fairer sex' are quick to disregard or themselves be derogatory towards.

If you want to discuss specific issues like right to abortion, sexism or domestic violence you will find my ear far more sympathetic.

If you don't realise how some women are indeed privilaged, especially in specific areas such as dating you must live on another planet or something.

You put words in my mouth. I do not state that women are not oppressed. Therefore I am not ignorant of the matter. Women are oppressed in forms and privilaged in others. I show the other side of an argument. Which, you don't seem to grasp I guess. I mean...not trying to be impolite but I think you've lost the plot if you are so one way in your views, and you are a victim of that power for the sake of power concept I've talked about.



alissaxvanity said:


> Don't want a feminist dating site? great, we don't want you either, since it would be for actual people with equality as their moral grounding.


You don't accept that the door swings both ways and you've already lost the plot to agenda pushing so practice what you preach. Have a word with yourself please.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

low said:


> Yes I've been trying to agree with you. You don't seem to acknowledge my actual point.
> 
> On a practical basis women absolutely have power in dating. Men are expected to approach and generally loose out if they don't. On dating sites men have to compete with other men on a vaster scale as they are still culturally subjected to having to take the proactive role in dating. I.e. Men must send mails more proactively, women generally do not, and as such have greater 'choice' or power in the selection process. Dating sites will confirm this in their mailing statistics.
> 
> ...


So many of these arguments are essentially "Waah! Waah! I can't get a date!" and have nothing to do with gender dynamics and everything to do with your dating history.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Deleted


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

The crabbiness in this thread is stifling.
I _really_ don't want to have to put up a lock watch.


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

ITT:


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> Men are becoming oppressed culturally? What evidence do you have of this? What are your examples of men being culturally oppressed?


There are actually many examples of that.
While women have been very oppressed historically and there still are remnants of that today, it is not the case that each and every system is either gender neutral or favours men. I had honestly thought you knew that.
That of course doesn't mean that things are "equal" when we look at the overall picture, but just that it doesn't only go one way.

One example that has been talked about a lot recently (though more a "systematic" than "cultural" thing perhaps) is the education system, which most girls are doing brilliantly in, but which has been losing boys at an increasing rate as focus on literary learning has increased.

Again, the areas where men are behind do not excuse or justify the areas where women are behind, but I'm very surprised you do not know that there are areas where men are behind.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Milco said:


> There are actually many examples of that.
> While women have been very oppressed historically and there still are remnants of that today, it is not the case that each and every system is either gender neutral or favours men. I had honestly thought you knew that.
> That of course doesn't mean that things are "equal" when we look at the overall picture, but just that it doesn't only go one way.
> 
> ...


How exactly does it favor girls to focus on literary learning? If boys aren't doing well, is that the fault of the education system or the boys themselves? Men aren't being told not to go to college. They aren't being prevented from entering in any way either. What is your point exactly?


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

joinmartin said:


> I know this wasn't said to me but I'll weigh in anyway if I may. You're for equal rites? That's good. Because, in essence, that's what feminism is also for. There has been a substantial lack of fairness shown towards women in many corners of the world throughout various centuries and feminism at its core seeks to redress that imbalance of fairness as best it can. Every person is a varying, evolving system and each person is an individual and we can't make life fair for absolutely every person on the planet. But feminism is simply an answer to the oppression of the feminine which has gone on in various forms throughout the ages.
> 
> The harpies? Who are the harpies? Men are becoming oppressed culturally? What evidence do you have of this? What are your examples of men being culturally oppressed?
> 
> ...


:hs:squeeze:heart:drunk:high5


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> How exactly does it favor girls to focus on literary learning? If boys aren't doing well, is that the fault of the education system or the boys themselves? Men aren't being told not to go to college. They aren't being prevented from entering in any way either. What is your point exactly?


Boys are generally more active and have more difficulty sitting still than girls do, especially during childhood and early puberty. So a school system that focusses very much on sitting still and paying attention for long stretches of time is better suited for girls than for boys... statistically speaking.
And it's worrying that there's an increasing number of boys who are doing poorly in school.

Again.. just one example of many.
Just to say that it's not the case that all systems and behavioural patterns favour men, even though many do.


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## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

I don't think feminism is even really necessary anymore. Women seem to run sh*t now. I think they've just gotten a little power hungry at this point. Feminism has mostly served its purpose in the Western world.

Instead of whining about minor problems, I think feminists should focus on other parts of the world... like in the Middle East and Africa where women can be stoned or have acid pitched on them for even showing their face. Those are truly oppressed women. 

just my opinion -- oh crap, didn't realize this was a girls only thread :blank


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

Okay, I wasn't going to join the discussion, but I'll bite.

Here are some male inequalities:

1.) In the United States, *only men* are required to register for the Selective Service (which means they can be *forcibly* inducted into the military and sent overseas *to be killed or permanently maimed*). Any man who doesn't register is ineligible for government benefits (such as student loans) and *can be thrown into prison for up to five years, or fined a quarter of a million dollars, or both*. Women, as of this writing (mid 2012), are completely exempt.

2.) If a woman cheats on her partner and gets pregnant, and her partner is unaware that the child is not his, *he can still be help responsible for supporting that child, even if it is later conclusively proven that the child is not his*, and *even though the woman knowingly lied to him about his being the father.* Although this mostly happens in marriage, this can happen *even if the man and woman are not married.*

3.) Likewise, if a woman rapes a man and becomes pregnant, *the man who was raped can still be forced to pay child support for the child conceived by the woman who raped him.*

These are *not* trivialities. We're not talking about pay inequalities or ****-shaming. We're talking about a man being financially crippled, physically or psychologically crippled, or *killed*, all for reasons beyond his control, simply because he has a penis.

Yes, gender inequalities exist. Yes, women are at a disadvantage in many areas. But please don't deny that men don't have areas where they, too, are disadvantaged. That is *all* I ask.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Witan said:


> Okay, I wasn't going to join the discussion, but I'll bite.


Another one that's more embedded in our behaviour than our laws and systems, is that various studies have found that about 25% of all 40 year old men do not have children and I believe the number for women is about 17%.
When cross-referencing the people in question with other databases (income, social status and so on), it shows that the men who do not have children are primarily in the lower spectrum of income and social status, while for the women it is the ones at the higher end of the spectrum.
This indicates (I'm relaying the sociologists' interpretation of the data - not giving my own) that the men simply weren't chosen by women as partners due to being of lower status, while the women who did not have children primarily didn't do so to instead pursue career and focus on work.
There have been many other studies which have shown similar / related patterns.


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## Peter Attis (Aug 31, 2009)

I don't even know what world you live in where women DON'T have the power in dating.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Peter Attis said:


> I don't even know what world you live in where women DON'T have the power in dating.


They really don't have all of the power.


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## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

Twelve Keyz said:


> I don't think feminism is even really necessary anymore. Women seem to run sh*t now. I think they've just gotten a little power hungry at this point. Feminism has mostly served its purpose in the Western world.
> 
> Instead of whining about minor problems, I think feminists should focus on other parts of the world... like in the Middle East and Africa where women can be stoned or have acid pitched on them for even showing their face. Those are truly oppressed women.
> 
> just my opinion -- oh crap, didn't realize this was a girls only thread :blank


I disagree! I think feminism is still necessary in this day and age both here and in other parts of the world. Btw, awhile did you make a thread about how you hate gender stereotypes? Feminism does work to get rid of gender stereotypes.


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## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

northstar1991 said:


> I disagree! I think feminism is still necessary in this day and age both here and in other parts of the world. Btw, awhile did you make a thread about how you hate gender stereotypes? *Feminism does work to get rid of gender stereotypes*.


not gonna lie that's a good point. I always think to myself though, do we really have it all that bad compared to other people in the world? I guess I'm just annoyed by radical feminism


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## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

Twelve Keyz said:


> not gonna lie that's a good point. I always think to myself though, do we really have it all that bad compared to other people in the world? I guess I'm just annoyed by radical feminism


Radical feminism can be way out there at times I admit. It's awful what women in other cultures go through. Thankfully, women in this culture don't go through a lot of oppressive rituals like stoning, honor killings, etc. Still, in the US women still face a lot of discrimination even though we've come a long way. For example, women on average make 78 cents to every man's dollar. Rape and domestic violence is still all too common. We're also experiencing an attack on reproductive rights from the conservatives. These are only a few examples.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Yes, I suppose **** shaming isn't a big issue or anything. Or the fact that the appearance of a woman is equated with her worth. Or that any woman who actually stands up for herself is called a *****, but a man who does the same is strong.
Or the fact that women's ability to have proper judgement is constantly questioned with the excuse that she is pmsing, which makes it difficult to operate and advance in all areas of life including work, not to mention is disrespectful and dehumanizing.
Clearly feminists are just power hungry *****es. Nope, no problems exist anymore.


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## Ashley1990 (Aug 27, 2011)

I dnt want to stay at home like a cow n milk my family...
I want to live free..be a better woman n working lady as well......i am proud woman are moving towrads mordenisation....with all sorst of reponsibilities


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I see **** shaming on this forum all the time done by both males and females. It's not directed at other users but nonetheless you end up reading it.


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## Ashley1990 (Aug 27, 2011)

komorikun said:


> I see **** shaming on this forum all the time done by both males and females. It's not directed at other users but nonetheless you end up reading it.


I agree with u Komo..!! it creeps me out now...mean people on here..n mentally retarded too:mum


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## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

alissaxvanity said:


> *Yes, I suppose **** shaming isn't a big issue or anything. Or the fact that the appearance of a woman is equated with her worth*. *Or that any woman who actually stands up for herself is called a *****, but a man who does the same is strong.*
> Or the fact that women's ability to have proper judgement is constantly questioned with the excuse that she is pmsing, which makes it difficult to operate and advance in all areas of life including work, not to mention is disrespectful and dehumanizing.
> Clearly feminists are just power hungry *****es. Nope, no problems exist anymore.


blame evolution for the first few points. not saying it's right, but there's not much that can be done about it unless you kill every man on the planet. As for the other things that you mentioned, they are certainly problems but I still think they are minor issues compared to what goes on elsewhere in the world.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> SNIP


I'm really not sure what to make of your reply at all.
Yes, it's true that you didn't explicitly say there weren't any areas where men were behind, but you did strongly insist on seeing proof and appeared to be very disbelieving.
You weren't talking about only strong oppression though, but also areas where women have privilege so that's the context in which I replied (even if I didn't include all quotes you made).
Also, I'm not sure that women are being so deliberately discriminated against, but that it's more systems and expected patterns we have set up which favour men, and that is still called discrimination against women.
And I find it worrying that you seemingly differentiate the burden of proof between the genders. I do not see you asking for statistics, evidence or otherwise for the discrimination women face and then challenging that, trying to dismiss it.


joinmartin said:


> Well, that's going to depend on the boy.


Would you honestly say that about the wage disparity between the genders as well? That it would depend on the woman?
If I didn't know better, I'd say you're actually discriminating against men here.

But just to give even further details on what I said:
It was regarding the Danish school system. I do watch some international news, but not enough to know whether you've had the same debates in other countries, though I would assume you would have much the same problems we do.
The way the school system is designed is not gender neutral, but does favour girls. And virtually all academics, teachers and politicians in that field agree, but just aren't sure quite what to do about it - it can be hard to tackle problems that are the result of a flaw in the way the system is designed.
And just for the raw numbers...
72% of men get secondary education, 78% of women do.
32% of men get higher education, 46% of women do.
A new class is emerging that is rather unfavourably being called "loser men", because they don't receive education, they have no jobs, they never get married and they die at relatively young age.
I'm not suggesting there is a female conspiracy to keep these men down, but then I wouldn't say there's male conspiracy to keep women down either.
There are just harmful patterns and systems and they still pose problems that we need to address.
Now if I may ask you for your proof and evidence that problems in the education system are affecting both genders equally, if you would, please?



joinmartin said:


> It's a difficult situation but again, there's a child involved. The rape and the ensuing problems are not the fault of the child. That child is a life form. And let's not forget that for years women were basically forced to have children if a rape resulted in pregnancy because of attitudes towards contraception and abortion and the fact that women were denied the choice about what to do with their bodies.


Wow... You just.. I don't... :flush
I guess you're trying to look out for women and I'm not sure I can reason with you on this.. I don't even know where to start.
So I really hope some women can read what you just wrote and tell you how way off track you are...


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Actually, joinmartin discussed things respectfully, considered points in spite of how insane and ridiculous they are, and asked for evidence without making accusations. Not sure how he is "off track" in any way.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Twelve Keyz said:


> I don't think feminism is even really necessary anymore. Women seem to run sh*t now. I think they've just gotten a little power hungry at this point. Feminism has mostly served its purpose in the Western world.


When Hillary Clinton was running for president, she was criticized in the way the male candidates weren't criticized. When she cried, she was too emotional. When she didn't, she was too "cold." Her appearance was scrutinized, and I distinctly remember one moment when she was giving a speech and someone actually yelled, "Go back to the kitchen!" *and people laughed.*

And notice how most of us are comfortable with calling her by her first name, whereas with male candidates we generally use their last name to indicate respect. So while women in the western world technically have the same legal rights as men in the western world and the feminist movement technically has served its purpose, I don't believe that it's time to throw the concept out the window.



> Instead of whining about minor problems, I think feminists should focus on other parts of the world... like in the Middle East and Africa where women can be stoned or have acid pitched on them for even showing their face. Those are truly oppressed women.


Anyone who would make a sweeping generalization about the quality of life in three different places probably hasn't been around and just doesn't know that many people to begin with.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Twelve Keyz said:


> blame evolution for the first few points. not saying it's right, but there's not much that can be done about it unless you kill every man on the planet. As for the other things that you mentioned, they are certainly problems but I still think they are minor issues compared to what goes on elsewhere in the world.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> Actually, joinmartin discussed things respectfully, considered points in spite of how insane and ridiculous they are, and asked for evidence without making accusations. Not sure how he is "off track" in any way.


Which points were insane and ridiculous exactly?
And you don't consider it problematic when he says rape victims should be held financially responsible for possible children born due to the rape?


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

> The attitude of the US military (and other military forces around the world) is not exactly feminist towards women. Women get their combat roles restricted and it took a very long time before women were given the chance to defend their country at all. There's certainly been a balancing act between preferential treatment of certain genders within the US and other military organisations.


And while the military is opening more and more opportunities to women, the issue of Selective Service is pretty much stagnant. If we make progress on the one, we should make progress on the other.



> And I'm sure there are people who will say on the one hand: "men are more dominant and protect the women. Feminism is against evolution" and then complain that men get enlisted into the army to go and are expected to go off and be dominant, strong, protect people etc.


You read my post in my other thread, didn't you?  I agree that men tend to play the protective role for biological reasons. But that should not be an obligation. People should have choice and not be bound by gender stereotypes, which is exactly what the root of feminism is. If we are to have equality of opportunity, we must take one of two courses of action: 1.) Require both genders to be liable to the draft, à la Israel, or 2.) Abolish Selective Service entirely. I, for one, favor the latter.



> Are you saying that asking someone to be responsible for a child is somehow oppressing the male? It might not be his biological child but if it's in his care then he's responsible for it. If you have a child with someone and then later find out that child is not biologically yours then you don't just have an automatic get out of jail free card saying you're not responsible for that child any more. That would be daft. You've acted as a father to that child and maybe even been a better father than whoever his biological father was. So of course there's responsibility for the child involved. Having anything else would risk the child's well being. Indeed, one could argue those laws are present to protect the child and not to oppress the male gender.


First, let me be clear. I'm not saying males are oppressed. I'm saying that there are inequalities, and that if we talk about inequalities for one gender, we should also acknowledge inequalities for the other. Secondly, although it is commendable for a father to continue to raise a child he has supported and bonded with, even after he finds out it isn't his, it should not be legally mandatory. Many things in our society are morally frowned upon, but not illegal. Yes, it will be disruptive to the child to suddenly have his father-figure out of his life, but we must place blame where it is deserved; by the woman who knowingly cheated and committed paternity fraud. She is solely culpable. She made the choice. The man had no choice.

Perhaps we could fix this by having routine paternity testing at birth as a default procedure. If that were the case, then you could have a case that any man who opts out of the test is culpable, even if he later finds out the child isn't his. But since people trust their partners, there is no reason for any man to believe that the child his partner is carrying is not his.



> It's a difficult situation but again, there's a child involved. The rape and the ensuing problems are not the fault of the child. That child is a life form. And let's not forget that for years women were basically forced to have children if a rape resulted in pregnancy because of attitudes towards contraception and abortion and the fact that women were denied the choice about what to do with their bodies.


With respect, do you see the contradiction here? You say that women were forced to carry a rapists baby, and that she had no choice. And I fully agree, that is an abomination. *NO* woman should have to carry a rapist's baby. But your reasoning regarding men is similar to many pro-lifers. "It isn't the child's fault, the child is innocent. It's a life form." If a woman has the right to abort a rape baby (as she should), then a man who was raped, having been violated against his will, should not be held responsible for the product of that violation. To do so is to use the same logic used in countries with Sharia, where if a woman is raped, SHE is punished (*note*, I'm not saying that the severity of those two thing is anywhere near equal, mind you, just that the logic used in both is the same.)



> Actually, no, we're not. A man might be asked to financially support a child *who is actually his* or who has been in his care? That's quite sensible. However the child came about, it's not the child's fault. That child needs to be protected, loved and cherished and the parents have that responsibility. The mother must also care for, pay for and protect their child.


I'm assuming you meant to say "is not actually his", because I don't believe a father shouldn't have to support his own child. As I said above, that is the same logic pro-lifers use, and although a man who continues to care for a child that isn't his is morally laudable, it should not be legally obligatory. The fault lies solely with the mother who not only cheated, but committed paternity fraud.



> And what about the men who don't or won't pay child support, the men who walk out on their wives and girlfriends when they're pregnant because they can't deal with it or whatever.


This is irrelevant to this discussion. Society does its best to hold fathers accountable for the children they sire. But just like other criminals, some slip away. It is abhorrent, but has no bearing on this argument.



> Nobody's denying anything. We're simply discussing. I'm not sure why you think being asked to support a child that *is actually yours* or was in your care would somehow constitute a form of oppression of your sex (I assume you're male). The woman has to pay for and care for the child too.


As above, I'm going to assume you mean to say "is not actually his", because otherwise we have no disagreement. And as I said, I'm not saying it's oppression. It is an inequality in society, and as I said, if we strive for gender equality for one sex, we should do it for both sexes. That is the goal of traditional feminism. No qualms there.



> Oppression of women: In certain countries around the world a rapist just has to propose marriage to his victim to get away with it.


This is horrible, but as most of us are from Western countries, I don't see what this has to do with the discussion. I could just as easily say that in South America, men are being tortured by being forced to allow themselves to be stung repeatedly by bullet ants, or by having to be circumcised. Yes, that is unfortunate, but I don't see how that relates to our society. In our society, if a man rapes a woman, he goes to prison for a good long time. As he should.

And on a side note, since I brought up circumcision, it should be noted that in this country (the USA), male genital mutilation (routine, non-necessary circumcision) is acceptable, while we regard female genital mutilation as abhorrent.



> Not to mention how tough it is to get a rape conviction in many Western countries (assuming the guilt of the person trial)


We have a presumption of innocence in most Western justice systems. If a rapist doesn't leave DNA behind (semen), then it can be very hard to prove who committed it. It is unfortunate that many women feel to ashamed to report a rape right away, but the fact of the matter is that by waiting, the chances of their rapist being captured and convicted drop greatly. We should fix this by encouraging women that rape is not her fault, and that she should go to a hospital immediately after the attack to have a rape kit done.

And on the flip side, it is by no means unheard of for a woman to falsely accuse a man of rape. Even if he isn't convicted, his reputation is destroyed.



> And then there's the cultural attitudes towards women that assume that being raped might be her fault...that she was drunk etc...etc..


You will get no argument from me here. I agree.



> Yes, I'm going to come at this from a feminist standpoint. My God is the female divine. How am I not going to come at this from a feminist standpoint. But that doesn't mean I won't hear opposing viewpoints. *I just took the time to write this essay on one such viewpoint that opposed my own thinking.*


Point taken. And I did the same.


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> Actually, joinmartin discussed things respectfully, considered points* in spite of how insane and ridiculous they are*, and asked for evidence without making accusations. Not sure how he is "off track" in any way.


I have to admit that I don't know what to say in response to this. :con And I think it might be wisest for me to just say nothing at all.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Milco said:


> Which points were insane and ridiculous exactly?
> And you don't consider it problematic when he says rape victims should be held financially responsible for possible children born due to the rape?


No I don't consider the thing he didn't say problematic, I would if he has made that claim.



Witan said:


> I have to admit that I don't know what to say in response to this. :con And I think it might be wisest for me to just say nothing at all.


well you clearly failed to do that, do not see the point in saying something about how you shouldn't say anything.


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## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

alissaxvanity said:


>


Do you live in a bubble? Or do you just deny everything that shatters your view of reality?

either way, what I have said is completely true and there are much worse things then that including genital mutilation. Women here have it pretty damn good compared to elsewhere. That's all I'm gonna say. These gender wars are ridiculous.


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> well you clearly failed to do that, do not see the point in saying something about how you shouldn't say anything.












::adds to ignore list::


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## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

Witan said:


> ::adds to ignore list::


:lol


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Deleted


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Twelve Keyz said:


> Do you live in a bubble? Or do you just deny everything that shatters your view of reality?
> 
> either way, what I have said is completely true and there are much worse things then that including genital mutilation. Women here have it pretty damn good compared to elsewhere. That's all I'm gonna say. These gender wars are ridiculous.


Women have it pretty damn good? Oh I see, so I should be thankful for being treated like a human being and the fact that women finally have the rights that they should have had all along? Interesting. 
So if you think that the things feminists complain about are too small for you to care about, does that mean you are actively fighting for greater issues to do with sexism? Please share.


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## Lucy in the Sky (Aug 23, 2011)

I feel like the issue is not equality with men...but finding the basis of having a relationship with other women


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> I feel I could have been clearer on what I meant concerning the children being born of rape issue. I do not believe that rape victims should be held responsible in advance for any possibility. Rape is an awful act and an awful crime and I spend a fair bit of my time giving and raising money for charities dedicated to help rape victims. Let me be clear again on that: rape victims are not held automatically responsible for anything.
> 
> What I am highlight is the unfortunate fact of life that occurs when a child is born of rape. A child born of rape is innocent of that rape. The circumstances of its birth and conception were beyond its control. The fact is that the child was born and exists. Someone has to take responsibility for it. That's not me saying that people should be pressured into taking responsibility for the child. Just that the child exists and someone is going to have to take responsibility for it. It could be the mother, the state or the father. And does the child really deserve to be placed in the care system simply because it is a product of a rape that it had no influence or control over?
> 
> ...


I understand. I had the feeling earlier that we were more talking past each other than arguing against each other. Your post here seems very reasonable to me.


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> The last three boyfriends my sister has had have been from online dating websites. Did she sit there passively waiting for some guys to turn up and message her. No, she did not. She took the initiative and winked at the guys. She expressed interest in them....


 I was on several dating websites for 3 years and didn't have one date. The statement is probably a testament of this persons view:



bezoomny said:


> So many of these arguments are essentially *"Waah! Waah! I can't get a date!"* and have nothing to do with gender dynamics and everything to do with your dating history.


 I found that genuinely pretty insulting. I had to wait a while before replying for obvious reasons. I'll just state at least I'm arguing and explaining my points, I don't see most people disagreeing with me going past insults or general statements.

Anyway. My profile was well written, had photos, I don't consider myself bad looking, I wasn't negative like I am here. I was honest whilst trying to be positive and especially made an attempt to avoid negativity. I was proactive, and personalised each message. Whilst, trying not to write a life story or too little. I spent a lot of time on it. I read dating blogs and followed tips.

It's true personal experience does influence opinion, still... 'Waah Waah' I guess...



joinmartin said:


> I will point out that in some countries around the world a rapist only has to propose marriage to the woman he rapes (she doesn't have to say yes) for it not to be a crime. So these examples you have of male oppression need to be good ones. Not really along the lines of: "men are expected to approach". Because "men are expected to approach" really doesn't cut the mustard against: "if he asks me to marry me he can get away with violating me".


 I thought there was an obvious inference? I'm writing about '1st world'/western society and largely dating within that area.

As is the theme in this thread, you've fundamentally failed in making the distinction between 'Men are subjugated in respects, but I don't deny the subjugation of women' and 'tit for tat' point scoring. Ultimately people are falling into the men vs women, who has it worse/gender wars debate. I made some statements on the subjugation of men. I never devalued feminism. Your whole argument was explaining the importance of feminism to me and examples of Islamic, African type country female subjugation. Well, I think that's a double standard playing that card considering women writing in this thread were generally talking about westernised society themselves most of the time from what I gather. Furthermore it doesn't disprove any of my points.


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

alissaxvanity said:


> *ignorant* thing to say... *insane* and *ridiculous*





joinmartin said:


> Your previous evidence in support of women being privileged in dating took the form of some assumptions you have about women's apparently superficial decision making processes...*assumptions not backed up by evidence*.


 I'm very careful of everything I write.



low said:


> On a practical basis women absolutely have power in dating. Men are expected to approach and generally loose out if they don't. On dating sites men have to compete with other men on a vaster scale as they are still culturally subjected to having to take the proactive role in dating. I.e. Men must send mails more proactively, women generally do not, and as such have greater 'choice' or power in the selection process. Dating sites will confirm this in their mailing statistics.


 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1113243

_71% of men's and 56% of women's first-contact e-mails do not receive a reply.

First contact behaviour:_ _
Profiles browsed from 3004 men: 385, 470_ _
Profiles browsed from 2783 women: 172,946_ _

First contacts are usually made by men. Women receive an average of 11.4 first emails, and men got 2.3. 56.4% of all men in the sample did not get any first emails at all, with 21.1% of women never being approached the first time. _ _

The average man can expect 35% of the average women to respond, where the average woman can expect 60% of the men she contacts to respond. _

_
First contacts that lead to match: men: 4.3 Women: 6.4 _

*Consider the cumulative affect also. I.e. The disproportion becomes higher as you add each of the individual listed statistics.



low said:


> Then there is bias in employment status, living arrangement, salary, social status.


 



 




Self explanatory really.



low said:


> Then there is personal trait bias, largely favourably towards extraversion


 This is not pseudo-science. It's called sexual selection. It's well grounded and observed in most mammals and many other animals, and put forward by the same guy who's certain other theory is the basis for most of modern biology.






i.e. presentation, not substance is what counts, superficial. Also relates to extraversion.

http://www.evolutionhumaine.fr/char...e_2010_personality_individual_differeence.pdf
_
Extraversion, a personality dimension associated with sociability, activity and dominance, predicts a man's mating effort in various human populations._

Can you think of any other traits, negative ones, which relate to extraversion? Bad manners, trickery to get something out of someone, arrogance perhaps? Showing off? Narcissism, need to belittle others as a form of dominance or extraverted humour ('take the piss' type humour) etc?

Not to state all outgoing, confident or extraverted men are that but I would be willing to bet that there is some truth to 'jerk theory' or 'nice guy' theory which can be related. No strict claim. Don't take it too personaly but I'll stand by my guns here. I bet there's a correlation.

http://courses.washington.edu/evpsych/Nettle on extraversion - EHB 2007.pdf

_Male extraverts were likely to have extrapair matings, whilst female extraverts were likely to leave existing relationships for new ones._

Extra-pair matings means they cheat more. Correlates directly with jerk theory, degree of superficial selection.


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## HustleRose (Jun 19, 2009)

Awesomeness. 'nough said.


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