# If God exists...



## styler5 (Oct 7, 2006)

I think he either doesn't give a darn about us or enjoys watching us flame each other in the endless God debate. :teeth

Just a silly thought that came to mind.


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## Ashley1990 (Aug 27, 2011)

he will sail my boat across the horizon..!!!!


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## TryingMara (Mar 25, 2012)

...it's irrelevant. Believing in and praying to it doesn't impact our lives for the better, at all.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Ashley1990 said:


> he will sail my boat across the horizon..!!!!


sounds kinky


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

styler5 said:


> I think he either doesn't give a darn about us or enjoys watching us flame each other in the endless God debate. :teeth
> 
> Just a silly thought that came to mind.


He cares, but we are overshooting things. We need to know what to do to get through this, but we have to find the path.


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> He cares, but we are overshooting things. We need to know what to do to get through this, but we have to find the path.


So he cares, but not enough to help?


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## Miss Anthropy (May 7, 2012)

styler5 said:


> I think he either doesn't give a darn about us or enjoys watching us flame each other in the endless God debate. :teeth
> 
> Just a silly thought that came to mind.


Probably. Last week when I was at Walmart a woman walked up to me "inviting" me to Church. I am not sure what it was about me that screamed "LORD SAVE ME" but I just told her I was Jewish (which I am by race) and walked off. I really wanted to say in a deep, menacing voice "I worship SATAN!" but she seemed nice so I kept it to myself. I don't really mind the concept of God, however SOME of his followers have the capacity to be ignorant and obnoxious. I hope I did not offend anyone with what I have just said, because that was not my intent.


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## OrbitalResonance (Sep 21, 2010)

millenniumman75 said:


> He cares, but we are overshooting things. We need to know what to do to get through this, but we have to find the path.


The paths are open to so many interpretations though..


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## HarryStanluv25 (Jan 26, 2012)

I like to always think- if god exists and I go to heaven after I die I will go up to him and say, 'You better have a good excuse for everything...' :wife


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

albrecht said:


> So he cares, but not enough to help?


He cares, but there are times where He can't help those who aren't asking Him.

Job - perfect example.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

ExplorerAtHeart said:


> The paths are open to so many interpretations though..


Exactly - that is where discernment comes in.


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## THEuTASTEsOFeINKd (Apr 10, 2010)

There is no proof that a god does or doesn't exist. It is the unknowable. Hence, all Atheists and Theists are poopheads. That is all. BYE.


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> He cares, but there are times where He can't help those who aren't asking Him.


He _can't_? As in isn't capable? Or do you mean isn't willing for other purposes deemed more important? And what are those purposes? And if he's going to fulfill those purposes anyway, why pray for God's intervention in matters outside of our control?



> Job - perfect example.


I don't know if that's a perfect example - even most Christians I know interpret it as fiction and hard to swallow even as a fable.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

albrecht said:


> So he cares, but not enough to help?


It's because he doesn't help, that he cares...we're here for a purpose, to gain experience with emotions we can't experience in heaven.

If God were to help make every thing we experience here be a positive experience, for everyone, it would simply be a pointless experiment to have us exist here in the first place.

The fact that there are terrible things in the world only affirms my belief in "God"...and it's not the "all-loving" God most people think of. It's not a loving God or an evil God, it's every thing.

...in my opinion. :duck


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

****Thread Lock Watch****
Alright, now it is venturing into troll territory. 
Steer it back on topic.


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## 7th.Streeter (May 11, 2011)

albrecht said:


> So he cares, but not enough to help?


He can only help if you ask him, and come to him sincerly .


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## rgrwng (Aug 25, 2011)

*"If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?"*

_Ready for Round 2? then i wake up to a new life way into the future.

_sorry if this is inappropriate - the title reminded me of this question.


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

the cheat said:


> It's because he doesn't help, that he cares...we're here for a purpose, to gain experience with emotions we can't experience in heaven.


Why do we need experience with emotions that will be useless to us in the long run?



> If God were to help make every thing we experience here be a positive experience, for everyone, it would simply be a pointless experiment to have us exist here in the first place.


So God created humans as an experiment?



> The fact that there are terrible things in the world only affirms my belief in "God"...and it's not the "all-loving" God most people think of. It's not a loving God or an evil God, it's every thing.


Why call it "God"?


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

Sugarslippers said:


> He can only help if you ask him, and come to him sincerly .


On what basis do you suppose that? And isn't that a rather ugly picture of God - that of the billions of prayers offered to God in desperation, he just doesn't help some people because they aren't "sincere" enough? Not enough groveling, not enough boot-kissing to be worthy of God's consideration?


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

albrecht said:


> Why do we need experience with emotions that will be useless to us in the long run?


It's simply my belief that God is perfect(and by perfect, I mean an equal balance of all things), and "he" wants "us" to become as perfect as he is. For us to become as "all-knowing" as we possibly can be, we need to experience all things, good and bad. God had to create a place outside of heaven for "us" to accomplish this, because we can only experience good when we're in God's presence.



> So God created humans as an experiment?


In a sense, yeah, that's what I believe anyway. "You" are not your body, it's a vehicle that allows you to experience whatever it was you were meant to experience in this lifetime.



> Why call it "God"?


It's just a name, call it what you want.


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

the cheat said:


> It's simply my belief that God is perfect(and by perfect, I mean an equal balance of all things), and "he" wants "us" to become as perfect as he is.


Why would he want that? What's the point?



> For us to become as "all-knowing" as we possibly can be, we need to experience all things, good and bad.


But we don't experience all things anyway. Some people's lives are far more comfortable than others. Some people suffer a great deal more than others. God apparently has an efficiency problem.



> God had to create a place outside of heaven for "us" to accomplish this, because we can only experience good when we're in God's presence.


So God is only present in heaven? Your God has a location?



> In a sense, yeah, that's what I believe anyway. "You" are not your body, it's a vehicle that allows you to experience whatever it was you were meant to experience in this lifetime.


But consciousness is dependent on the body, at least all available evidence seems to suggest so. Why suppose that there can be any such thing as disembodied consciousness?



> It's just a name, call it what you want.


I guess I'm not sure what exactly you mean. You said in the earlier post I replied to that "It's not a loving God or an evil God, it's every thing." But you also ascribe personal characteristics to "it" (i.e. wanting to bring about certain things, desiring perfection for humans, experimenting, perhaps being located "somewhere") and say that it's perfect.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

albrecht said:


> Why would he want that? What's the point?


I believe it's because experience and knowledge is what it's all about. "God" wants us to have all knowledge. If you lived in a literal bubble of happiness, it wouldn't be happiness for you, it would just "be", since there is no contrast. To understand what it means to be happy, you have to experience a feeling that is not happiness.



> But we don't experience all things anyway. Some people's lives are far more comfortable than others. Some people suffer a great deal more than others. God apparently has an efficiency problem.


I'm open to the idea that if we come here once, we can come here again. Or perhaps to another intelligent being on a different planet...who knows, the universe is weird. 



> So God is only present in heaven? Your God has a location?


Yes, "my God" is only in heaven, he's not here.



> But consciousness is dependent on the body, at least all available evidence seems to suggest so. Why suppose that there can be any such thing as disembodied consciousness?


I have to suppose, the thread topic is "If God exists..."
These are my beliefs, should God actually exist. I don't know if he does, and I don't think I'm going to hell for thinking that way.



> I guess I'm not sure what exactly you mean. You said in the earlier post I replied to that "It's not a loving God or an evil God, it's every thing." But you also ascribe personal characteristics to "it" (i.e. wanting to bring about certain things, desiring perfection for humans, experimenting, perhaps being located "somewhere") and say that it's perfect.


Oh, what I meant by that is that if God exists, he's not purely a loving God, or a purely evil God, "he" embodies all things, because he is "perfect". The ying, and the yang...you know...God loves us, I believe, but let's us experience evil because he knows we'll only experience it for a fixed amount of time, and then we're back home in heaven.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

styler5 said:


> I think he either doesn't give a darn about us or enjoys watching us flame each other in the endless God debate. :teeth
> 
> Just a silly thought that came to mind.


Well, He has no choice when we shut Him out.

Think about it.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

albrecht said:


> On what basis do you suppose that? And isn't that a rather ugly picture of God - that of the billions of prayers offered to God in desperation, he just doesn't help some people because they aren't "sincere" enough? Not enough groveling, not enough boot-kissing to be worthy of God's consideration?


Sincerity is not the issue - our prayers are either answered right now or sometime in the future.

I kept praying for certain social situations to work - the way I was being treated. I prayed for three months and no change....until I realized, the changes were already beginning IN ME.

Sometimes, it's not the result you think it is. We have to move into the position to join the prayer - however long it takes.


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## luceo (Jan 29, 2011)

I guess everyone wins if you shift the goalposts.


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## RiversEdge (Aug 21, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> He cares, but there are times where He can't help those who aren't asking Him.
> 
> Job - perfect example.


He also gave people free will.
Free will -- the choices we make -- have consequences and affect everyone besides ourselves.


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## The Silent 1 (Aug 21, 2011)

the cheat said:


> I believe it's because experience and knowledge is what it's all about. "God" wants us to have all knowledge. If you lived in a literal bubble of happiness, it wouldn't be happiness for you, it would just "be", since there is no contrast. To understand what it means to be happy, you have to experience a feeling that is not happiness.


I feel statements like this are an attempt to rationalize an all powerful and supposedly loving god with the cruel world full of suffering. By saying happiness is only possible in a world with suffering you limit god's omnipotence. Its essentially saying, "Well god must let us suffer or else how could we understand happiness?" Except you've bound yourself by the logic of this world to make that statement and personally I don't even buy that statement as being true in this world. As long as one has a concept of what sadness and suffering is, you wouldn't need to actually experience it and a world with just varying degrees of joy should be possible.

I really only see two options. Either god is not all powerful or we suffer purely because he prefers us to. Its not the only way that we can learn, but rather he would prefer that we live in hardship and ignorance never bothering to clearly reveal himself to us.



luceo said:


> I guess everyone wins if you shift the goalposts.


Basically this. The thing about prayer is that it basically comes down to "God will answer your prayers....if he wants to on his own time and in his own way".

For every person who prayed for god to intervene in their lives and were answered, many more cry out in vain wondering why they suffer in misery and shame every day. A great point was made once that anyone can answer prayers as well as Yahweh does. Simply ask me for anything and I may or may not answer you on my own time in my own way.


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> ****Thread Lock Watch****
> Alright, now it is venturing into troll territory.
> Steer it back on topic.


Speaking of thread lock, are you actually allowed to make affirming statements about god in the atheist/agnostic forum?


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

jonny neurotic said:


> Speaking of thread lock, are you actually allowed to make affirming statements about god in the atheist/agnostic forum?


Just like anyone else - there are other members posting similar reponses to mine.

It's also not right to blast out the theists.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

RiversEdge said:


> He also gave people free will.
> Free will -- the choices we make -- have consequences and affect everyone besides ourselves.


Exactly right. :yes


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> Just like anyone else - there are other members posting similar reponses to mine.
> 
> It's also not right to blast out the theists.


Does that mean one could do a similar thing in the religious forum?


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

If god exists...

...he's got some 'splainin' to do...


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

jonny neurotic said:


> Does that mean one could do a similar thing in the religious forum?


I didn't attack atheism. There isn't even a debate going on.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

jonny neurotic said:


> Speaking of thread lock, are you actually allowed to make affirming statements about god in the atheist/agnostic forum?


He's allowed to express his beliefs providing he stays on topic, and doesn't bash atheists/agnostics.


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

Neptunus said:


> He's allowed to express his beliefs providing he stays on topic, and doesn't bash atheists/agnostics.


I figured that was what the religion and atheism forum was for. I thought this forum was for atheists to discuss things relating to atheism, just like the religion forum is for religious people to discuss things related to religion.


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> I didn't attack atheism. There isn't even a debate going on.


Affirming god(however you define god) is implicitly attacking atheism.


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## Ventura (May 5, 2009)

jonny neurotic said:


> Affirming god(however you define god) is implicitly attacking atheism.


Like Neptunus said....
He's aloud to express his beliefs, he's not bashing anyone or debating. He's not derailing the thread with his beliefs.... So it's Okay (and the other way around, too) as you asked above.... If your following on a thread topic in a respectful way, it's Okay.

If you have more questions about the rules..... instead of derailing the thread, you can PM me or anther Moderator about the subject.

- Thanks


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## Cynical (Aug 23, 2011)

JustThisGuy said:


> Wouldn't be cool if God did exist, and, once you died, he'd tell you he worshipped Satan? :clap


lol I remember an episode in southpark where god was giving satan some advice and he says that was what he learned as a buddhist lmao


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

The Silent 1 said:


> I feel statements like this are an attempt to rationalize an all powerful and supposedly loving god with the cruel world full of suffering.


That's kind of what it is, though, rationalizing. I exist. You and everyone else exists. The Universe exists. At least as far we know lol. So, if God doesn't exist, there's no point trying to understand why he would want us to be here on earth, because he doesn't exist.
But when considering if he does exist, it's really just trying to understand why, if God exists, he'd want us to be here. Some people rely on various ancient texts written by humans. I've read a lot of different things and have my own ideas. Everything I write about this subject is based on that.



> By saying happiness is only possible in a world with suffering you limit god's omnipotence. Its essentially saying, "Well god must let us suffer or else how could we understand happiness?" Except you've bound yourself by the logic of this world to make that statement and personally I don't even buy that statement as being true in this world. As long as one has a concept of what sadness and suffering is, you wouldn't need to actually experience it and a world with just varying degrees of joy should be possible.


I'm not saying happiness is only possible in this world, with suffering. I said this world exists for the potential for suffering, in order for us to experience what we can not experience, in God's presence.
Also, I can not agree that understanding the concept behind something is as good as experiencing it first-hand. Tell a kid in a North Korean slum about the concept of a grocery store. See if this child understands it. Then take this child to a grocery store. See the differences in reaction and understanding...



> I really only see two options. Either god is not all powerful or *we suffer purely because he prefers us to*. Its not the only way that we can learn, but rather he would prefer that we live in hardship and ignorance never bothering to clearly reveal himself to us.


Yep, this is basically my opinion. But I don't think he prefers to see us suffer in the same way as say, Hitler, preferred to see the Jews suffer. I don't think God is sitting there and enjoying it. I believe God knows suffering and wants us to know it too, for a limited amount of time, so we can become "perfect" like he is.


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## The Silent 1 (Aug 21, 2011)

the cheat said:


> I'm not saying happiness is only possible in this world, with suffering. I said this world exists for the potential for suffering, in order for us to experience what we can not experience, in God's presence.
> Also, I can not agree that understanding the concept behind something is as good as experiencing it first-hand. Tell a kid in a North Korean slum about the concept of a grocery store. See if this child understands it. Then take this child to a grocery store. See the differences in reaction and understanding...


Do you understand what it is to be happy? Have you ever lived in a plane somewhere ravaged by disease where you were lucky to make it into your 20s? Where you weren't sure if you'd be fed that night or if a wild animal would rip you to shreds? Do you need to experience this to understand happiness? Your level of suffering I'm willing to bet isn't nearly this great, but do you need it to be? Do you really think that a child who experienced the things I mentioned above and then came to America will obtain a level of happiness that you could never hope to match just because he experienced more suffering? I don't buy into that idea at all. He may not take what he has in America for granted more than you and be more appreciative, but I don't think that means he would attain a level of happiness that you could not. In that case a world in which there were only varying degrees of happiness wouldn't mean the joy we experience there wouldn't be as great.

Furthermore human beings aren't born as a blank slate. Even if what you say is true any knowledge or emotional experience could be beamed right into our heads so no suffering is required.



the cheat said:


> Yep, this is basically my opinion. But I don't think he prefers to see us suffer in the same way as say, Hitler, preferred to see the Jews suffer. I don't think God is sitting there and enjoying it. I believe God knows suffering and wants us to know it too, for a limited amount of time, so we can become "perfect" like he is.


If god is all powerful than I contend that everything is because he prefers it to be that way. We don't need to suffer or have any experience whatsoever to become "perfect". He prefers we suffer, he prefers we are born in ignorance, he prefers that we had to fight every day just to survive in a harsh environment. Once we realize that nothing is "necessary" with an all powerful god than clearly everything that happens is by preference.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

The Silent 1 said:


> Do you understand what it is to be happy? Have you ever lived in a plane somewhere ravaged by disease where you were lucky to make it into your 20s? Where you weren't sure if you'd be fed that night or if a wild animal would rip you to shreds? Do you need to experience this to understand happiness? Your level of suffering I'm willing to bet isn't nearly this great, but do you need it to be? Do you really think that a child who experienced the things I mentioned above and then came to America will obtain a level of happiness that you could never hope to match just because he experienced more suffering? I don't buy into that idea at all. He may not take what he has in America for granted more than you and be more appreciative, but I don't think that means he would attain a level of happiness that you could not. In that case a world in which there were only varying degrees of happiness wouldn't mean the joy we experience there wouldn't be as great.


I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying and that's okay, I probably didn't explain it right. 
I've experienced happiness, yes. No, I haven't lived in a place ravaged by disease where I'd be lucky to make it into my 20's. I wouldn't need to experience this to understand what it means to be happy, because I've experienced other negative events in my life that allow me to contrast the two extreme emotions. While the negative events I experienced pale in comparison to the tragedy you described, they were still very real, and painful, for me...and that's all I can appreciate.
But what I meant, by coming here to experience potential negativity, is that it's to be able to contrast the happiness we feel when we are in heaven, with God, not the happiness we feel while we're here on earth. 
You can't really have a world with varying degrees of only joy, because even in that scenario, there will be two ends of the pole...and to the person on the extreme positive end of that pole, the extreme negative, no matter if it's still "joy" will seem to him the way living in poverty would seem to a wealthy person in this world. And the person on the extreme negative end of that pole will desire to be happier than he/she is...which wouldn't equate joy.



> Furthermore human beings aren't born as a blank slate. Even if what you say is true any knowledge or emotional experience could be beamed right into our heads so no suffering is required.


There aren't many things more blank than the mind of a newborn baby...but again, if God exists, he didn't "beam knowledge/emotional experiences into our heads", so why even say that? What God "could" have done doesn't matter, because if he exists, he did it the way it is...



> If god is all powerful than I contend that everything is because he prefers it to be that way. We don't need to suffer or have any experience whatsoever to become "perfect". He prefers we suffer, he prefers we are born in ignorance, he prefers that we had to fight every day just to survive in a harsh environment. Once we realize that nothing is "necessary" with an all powerful god than clearly everything that happens is by preference.


I can't even say anything to this, because you're free to believe what you want to believe, when considering if God exists. Since God hasn't spoken to us himself, it'd be irrational for me to challenge what you wrote here, because then I'd be claiming to know the truth. And, I don't. No one does. God, if he exists, has never spoken to us...nor do I expect him to.


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## The Silent 1 (Aug 21, 2011)

the cheat said:


> I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying and that's okay, I probably didn't explain it right.
> I've experienced happiness, yes. No, I haven't lived in a place ravaged by disease where I'd be lucky to make it into my 20's. I wouldn't need to experience this to understand what it means to be happy, because I've experienced other negative events in my life that allow me to contrast the two extreme emotions. While the negative events I experienced pale in comparison to the tragedy you described, they were still very real, and painful, for me...and that's all I can appreciate.
> But what I meant, by coming here to experience potential negativity, is that it's to be able to contrast the happiness we feel when we are in heaven, with God, not the happiness we feel while we're here on earth.
> You can't really have a world with varying degrees of only joy, because even in that scenario, there will be two ends of the pole...and to the person on the extreme positive end of that pole, the extreme negative, no matter if it's still "joy" will seem to him the way living in poverty would seem to a wealthy person in this world. And the person on the extreme negative end of that pole will desire to be happier than he/she is...which wouldn't equate joy.


The point I was trying to make is that the joy you feel isn't lessened or increased by the level of suffering you have personally experienced to contrast it with. If thats the case then in a world with varying degrees of joy the happiness you feel wouldn't be any less than in my view.

Now you say a world with only varying degrees of joy isn't possible, but I disagree. For starters it depends on what sort of scale your dealing with, but even if you're experiencing 10x the joy that I am, that has no effect on me. If your playing a video game while I'm having sex with the woman of my dreams, I'm probably having more joy at that moment, but that doesn't mean you're not happy and indeed you are experiencing a different type of happiness. This kind of brings me to my next point.

A world with varying degrees of joy would be a land of plenty and without danger. Our social system is based on limited resources and having to work and allocate those things. A world in which all things were available to all and never ran out would eliminate much of what you say. Perhaps in this world there exists food that quite literally is better than sex. This food would be plentiful and you could partake as you pleased. Then perhaps there would be other activities and devices that you could derive different kinds and varying degrees of happiness from avaialbe to you at all times.

Meanwhile much of the suffering we feel is a product of our environment as it is. A paradise would fix much of this easily.

Another scenario is to imagine growing up on an island where the weather was always just right. You lived in happiness never knowing any other type of weather. Do you really need to experience any level of hot or cold to enjoy the weather you have on that island? Lets say you had literally nothing else to compare it too. Would you not be able to enjoy that weather then? Of course you would and experiencing hot and cold and then going back wouldn't make you experience the weather on the island any more. You might appreciate it more, but thats about it.



the cheat said:


> There aren't many things more blank than the mind of a newborn baby...but again, if God exists, he didn't "beam knowledge/emotional experiences into our heads", so why even say that? What God "could" have done doesn't matter, because if he exists, he did it the way it is...


I'm talking about human nature, our impulses, our instincts, etc. I brought up god beaming knowledge into our heads to show that even if what you say is true (that one must experience negativity to know happiness) than we need not actually experience only have that knowledge and emotions beamed into our heads along with anything else we needed to know. You seem to think of heaven as a paradise and acknowledge that there isn't suffering there. If god is all powerful then we need not suffer to experience the joy there, when god could put anything into our heads he chooses to. In other words theres no reason why we couldn't be in heaven enjoying the paradise right now.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

The Silent 1 said:


> The point I was trying to make is that the joy you feel isn't lessened or increased by the level of suffering you have personally experienced to contrast it with. If thats the case then in a world with varying degrees of joy the happiness you feel wouldn't be any less than in my view.


The actual happiness I feel is only described as happiness, because I exist in a place where the absence of happiness is not only possible, but likely, at least for varying degrees of time. 
If I existed in a place where I was at a consistent emotional level for eternity, like what I believe heaven to be, it would no longer be described as a feeling of happiness, it would simply be a feeling, the only one I'm capable of knowing .



> Now you say a world with only varying degrees of joy isn't possible, but I disagree. For starters it depends on what sort of scale your dealing with, but even if you're experiencing 10x the joy that I am, that has no effect on me. If your playing a video game while I'm having sex with the woman of my dreams, I'm probably having more joy at that moment, but that doesn't mean you're not happy and indeed you are experiencing a different type of happiness. This kind of brings me to my next point.


I might be happy that I'm playing a video game, but at the same time, I'd be happier if I were having sex with a beautiful woman. That feeling of wanting, and not having...that feeling of jealousy...is one of many things we're meant to experience here, and only here.



> A world with varying degrees of joy would be a land of plenty and without danger. Our social system is based on limited resources and having to work and allocate those things. A world in which all things were available to all and never ran out would eliminate much of what you say. Perhaps in this world there exists food that quite literally is better than sex. This food would be plentiful and you could partake as you pleased. Then perhaps there would be other activities and devices that you could derive different kinds and varying degrees of happiness from avaialbe to you at all times.
> 
> Meanwhile much of the suffering we feel is a product of our environment as it is. A paradise would fix much of this easily.


You're kinda describing what I believe to be heaven. 



> Another scenario is to imagine growing up on an island where the weather was always just right. You lived in happiness never knowing any other type of weather. Do you really need to experience any level of hot or cold to enjoy the weather you have on that island? Lets say you had literally nothing else to compare it too. Would you not be able to enjoy that weather then? Of course you would and experiencing hot and cold and then going back wouldn't make you experience the weather on the island any more. You might appreciate it more, but thats about it.


If you lived on an island that was a constant "perfect" temperature, let's say 75 F and climate, then perhaps you wouldn't need to experience another environment to maintain a level of happiness. But if you were on that island for eternity, and you stayed in the same emotional state the whole time, you would no longer be happy, you would simply be. 
Also, this is more to what I'm saying: you _would_ need to experience another environment to understand what being cold feels like. Or what being hot feels like. You wouldn't be able to understand what it's like to be cold, by being told about it.



> I'm talking about human nature, our impulses, our instincts, etc. I brought up god beaming knowledge into our heads to show that even if what you say is true (that one must experience negativity to know happiness) than we need not actually experience only have that knowledge and emotions beamed into our heads along with anything else we needed to know. You seem to think of heaven as a paradise and acknowledge that there isn't suffering there. If god is all powerful then we need not suffer to experience the joy there, when god could put anything into our heads he chooses to. In other words theres no reason why we couldn't be in heaven enjoying the paradise right now.


But we're here. We're not in heaven, with the knowledge of being here having simply been beamed into our heads. Since this is the case, what good does it do to debate how God "should" have done it?


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## The Silent 1 (Aug 21, 2011)

the cheat said:


> The actual happiness I feel is only described as happiness, because I exist in a place where the absence of happiness is not only possible, but likely, at least for varying degrees of time.
> If I existed in a place where I was at a consistent emotional level for eternity, like what I believe heaven to be, it would no longer be described as a feeling of happiness, it would simply be a feeling, the only one I'm capable of knowing .


I still don't feel this is a sound assertion. "Happiness" is the label. You label it in opposition to other feelings. If you had nothing else to compare it to you would still feel that joy. And you would understand higher degrees of joy. There are also different types of joy.



the cheat said:


> I might be happy that I'm playing a video game, but at the same time, I'd be happier if I were having sex with a beautiful woman. That feeling of wanting, and not having...that feeling of jealousy...is one of many things we're meant to experience here, and only here.


Jealousy doesn't exist in the land of plenty, not if you could get that same joy from other places at any time. 


the cheat said:


> You're kinda describing what I believe to be heaven.


A guy can dream can't he? 



the cheat said:


> If you lived on an island that was a constant "perfect" temperature, let's say 75 F and climate, then perhaps you wouldn't need to experience another environment to maintain a level of happiness. But if you were on that island for eternity, and you stayed in the same emotional state the whole time, you would no longer be happy, you would simply be.
> Also, this is more to what I'm saying: you _would_ need to experience another environment to understand what being cold feels like. Or what being hot feels like. You wouldn't be able to understand what it's like to be cold, by being told about it.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. A constant state of joy is just that, a constant state of joy. As humans we are wired to enjoy certain things and find other things painful. If we never experienced those painful things our wiring would still cause us to enjoy the good things. If we were in different states of joy at all times, then we would still be experiencing joy. It wouldn't just "be", it would be constant joy.



the cheat said:


> But we're here. We're not in heaven, with the knowledge of being here having simply been beamed into our heads. Since this is the case, what good does it do to debate how God "should" have done it?


Yes, my only point was to show that either way, going through suffering need not happen once an all mighty god enters the picture. We can still obtain joy, perfection, or what have you without it.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass (May 4, 2012)

Lol if heaven and hell were real i would rather go to hell. Living with no problems or pain is so boring!


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

The Silent 1 said:


> I still don't feel this is a sound assertion. "Happiness" is the label. You label it in opposition to other feelings. If you had nothing else to compare it to you would still feel that joy. And you would understand higher degrees of joy. There are also different types of joy.


How can you experience a state other than happiness, if you're in a constant state of happiness? There are different types of happiness, but it's still that.
To be happy, the potential to be unhappy has to be present...I don't know what else to say about it. :b



> I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. A constant state of joy is just that, a constant state of joy. As humans we are wired to enjoy certain things and find other things painful. If we never experienced those painful things our wiring would still cause us to enjoy the good things. If we were in different states of joy at all times, then we would still be experiencing joy. It wouldn't just "be", it would be constant joy.


In the existence of humans, how many do you think experienced bliss, from birth until death? And I mean 100% bliss...this person couldn't have wanted for something and not had it, almost immediately. This person couldn't have been sick, ever. Couldn't have had a headache. Couldn't have been angry, jealous, vengeful...nothing negative, at all. 
Now, if you imagine this person exists in this state, for eternity...would you say that this person still describes himself as happy? Or joyful?
If you say yes, we will have to agree to disagree. And that's cool. 



> Yes, my only point was to show that either way, going through suffering need not happen once an all mighty god enters the picture. We can still obtain joy, perfection, or what have you without it.


So are you then saying that because we are here, and because we suffer, that God doesn't exist? That's a genuine question by the way.


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## The Silent 1 (Aug 21, 2011)

the cheat said:


> How can you experience a state other than happiness, if you're in a constant state of happiness? There are different types of happiness, but it's still that.
> To be happy, the potential to be unhappy has to be present...I don't know what else to say about it. :b


The joy I get from beating the next level on a video game feels quite different from when I'm say smoking. There are some activities where I'm not quite sure if I could even qualify which brings me more joy because the way I experience the joy is so different. How can you experience a state other than happiness? Like I said different kinds and different levels.



the cheat said:


> In the existence of humans, how many do you think experienced bliss, from birth until death? And I mean 100% bliss...this person couldn't have wanted for something and not had it, almost immediately. This person couldn't have been sick, ever. Couldn't have had a headache. Couldn't have been angry, jealous, vengeful...nothing negative, at all.
> Now, if you imagine this person exists in this state, for eternity...would you say that this person still describes himself as happy? Or joyful?
> If you say yes, we will have to agree to disagree. And that's cool.


Like I said, I think your getting to caught up in the label of happiness. What that person would be experiencing would still be what you and I call joy and it would be the same kind of joy that you and I feel. They just wouldn't know anything else.



the cheat said:


> So are you then saying that because we are here, and because we suffer, that God doesn't exist? That's a genuine question by the way.


Absolutely not, that would be ridiculous. My non belief is based on lack of evidence and failure from theists to meet the burden of proof, nothing more. In the case of specific religions its also based on the fact that their holy books are full of all sorts of problems as well as is some of the claims they make.

But no, there is definitely a such thing as being an atheist for a bad reason. And the reason you just named is one of them. After all god could exist and just be a cruel god. Or maybe hes not all powerful. Us suffering says nothing about god's existence.


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## MrBakura91 (Dec 11, 2011)

"If God Exists...?" Then damn I would seriously wonder why in the times I asked and looked for evidence and wanted to believe sooo badly thinking "There must be something to (insert religion)" Why in the freaking Hell he did not provide any and why his followers had been unable to either. I did not want to be an atheist, I wanted to believe but I wanted to be able to give good reasons. Even after I got out of destructive fundamentalism for a while I re-converted thinking I had just got it wrong the first time.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

The Silent 1 said:


> The joy I get from beating the next level on a video game feels quite different from when I'm say smoking. There are some activities where I'm not quite sure if I could even qualify which brings me more joy because the way I experience the joy is so different. How can you experience a state other than happiness? Like I said different kinds and different levels.
> 
> Like I said, I think your getting to caught up in the label of happiness. What that person would be experiencing would still be what you and I call joy and it would be the same kind of joy that you and I feel. They just wouldn't know anything else.
> 
> ...


Any reply I make will be a rehashing of previous posts, with different analogies maybe. We'll agree to disagree/misunderstand.

I simply believe that we're here, and if God exists, he wants us here for a reason, otherwise we wouldn't be here. That's all.


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