# Do you like bad boys?



## bornwild (Apr 27, 2011)

Bad boys with social anxiety?


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## nemesis1 (Dec 21, 2009)

Guys with social anxiety tend to fall under the 'nice guy' category rather than 'bad boy'.


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## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

im a bad boy


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

What do you mean by 'bad boy'? :con


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## callmecharnelle (Apr 17, 2011)

I kind of do but see, bad boys with SA seem to over shadow me. It's like their scared to, but more daring. I kind of wish I could at least be like that a little and it's fun to say, I'm getting there. lol


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## mooncake (Jan 29, 2008)

Could you define your idea of 'bad boys'? The sort of traits I associate with the label aren't generally things I find attractive, mostly huge turn-offs actually.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Well, according to the whole men's anti-feminist online movement, women only desire said "bad boys".

Whether or not this is consistent with reality is not up to me to decide. 

I have not had enough "in field" experience to really make a distinction between different types of men and how women react to them. 

I have heard (mostly PUA community) that men should strive to become "alpha" but that term is vague as well and not well defined.


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## power2theweak (Jan 2, 2009)

No. I like good boys.


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## lanzman (Jun 14, 2004)

I think women are attracted to certain traits of the so called "bad boys" - mysterious, adventurous, confident, protective. But not so much the bad behavior - drugs, alcohol, infidelity, violence. Unfortunately a lot of the time they go hand in hand. The "nice guy" is too boring for them.


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## power2theweak (Jan 2, 2009)

lanzman said:


> I think women are attracted to certain traits of the so called "bad boys" - mysterious, adventurous, confident, protective. But not so much the bad behavior - drugs, alcohol, infidelity, violence. Unfortunately a lot of the time they go hand in hand. The "nice guy" is too boring for them.


I like boring. I am boring myself! :teeth


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## caflme (Jun 7, 2009)

^Easter was wonderful - thanks for asking.

I used to like bad boys... when I was younger... it took my quite a long while (till I was 25) to realize it was detrimental to my physical, mental and emotional health. Now if they aren't good, true and honest... thru and thru... that I can tell... I take a pass on them. The more I practiced allowing myself to TRY to feel worthy of the good guys... the more I felt better about myself and the more I was able to engage in health_*ier*_ relationships. I suppose somehow subconsciously since teen-hood... I feel like a bad girl and must have figured I did not deserve the good guys in the world... plus it always seemed that the world was confirming this at every turn.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

There is such a thing?

Not really. I'm looking for a genuine guy who will treat me nice and is actually interested in a proper relationship with me. Those aren't exactly typical bad boy traits.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Ivan AG said:


> I have not had enough "in field" experience to really make a distinction between different types of men and how women react to them.


There are just as many different types of women as there are many different types of men.

If you have nothing in common with some other guy in spite of sharing the same anatomy, why insist that all (or a more preferred choice of word that sounds more politically correct, "most") women think and behave the same?


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## bornwild (Apr 27, 2011)

diamondheart89 said:


> What do you mean by 'bad boy'? :con





mooncake said:


> Could you define your idea of 'bad boys'? The sort of traits I associate with the label aren't generally things I find attractive, mostly huge turn-offs actually.


In my case I am mainly just kind of rebellious towards authority and society. I have a little bit of a history of the stuff that is more of a turn off, but I have given up on that stuff. I still consider myself a bad boy though and kind of enjoy getting into trouble. But I completely respect woman and I am extremely honest... maybe too honest. So I guess this is what I'm asking about. I have been getting down on myself lately because of my shady past, so I started wondering if girls actually like this or not.


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## Deathinmusic (Jun 5, 2009)

A while ago I saw a good video on youtube where a girl basically articulates what we all instinctively know to be true. Girls often say they want "nice", but what they actually respond to is something very different. I can understand why they do this. I'm sure most of them WANT to be into the nice guy but unfortunately that just doesn't tend to make the panties wet.


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## Scrub-Zero (Feb 9, 2004)

I met a lot of so called badboys. They made a ****ing sheep look dangerous. All they did was use the image to get women. And a lot of Women were actually attracted to those fake *******s, which blew my mind. It killed me a little inside.


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## bornwild (Apr 27, 2011)

Deathinmusic said:


> A while ago I saw a good video on youtube where a girl basically articulates what we all instinctively know to be true. Girls often say they want "nice", but what they actually respond to is something very different. I can understand why they do this. I'm sure most of them WANT to be into the nice guy but unfortunately that just doesn't tend to make the panties wet.


Thanks, that is interesting, and good news. I do enjoy getting the panties wet.



Logan X said:


> I met a lot of so called badboys. They made a ****ing sheep look dangerous. All they did was use the image to get women. And a lot of Women were actually attracted to those fake *******s, which blew my mind. It killed me a little inside.


I've been accused by a lot of guys of being "fake", whatever that means. I think it's out of jealousy or something. Or maybe because I've never sat down and told them all the things I've done and been through. Not that they would believe me anyway. :roll


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Attractive women are attracted to _bad boys_, they don't like them.

Those women get attention from pretty much every man on earth. So when they end up finding a guy who doesn't bend his knees for them, they'll need to feel like they're still desirable. They'll be willing to prove to themselves they can seduce him.

At the end of the day, women are in love with their own ego. Not with the man. They like the feelings a man can make them feel. Not the man.


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

I wouldn't say girls like bad boys directly.

Bad boys tend to be confident.
You have to be confident to approach/ask a girl out.
"Nice" guys tend to be not confident, and tend to not approach a girl.
But do you have to be a bad boy to be confident? No!

Conclusion: Women like confident men. Bad boys happen to be confident; but they also tend to be socially-maladjusted dicks. Don't do that. Be yourself. And make sure you have your own goals and hobbies. Don't bend over backward for just any girl. It makes you look like a doormat.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Do you think alcoholics and drug addicts are _confident_?

Answer: No, they are not. They lost control of their own lives and need to use substances to feel good about themselves.

But they DO get women. Lots of them. Confidence doesn't attract women, it's the biggest myth on earth.

Having a _I don't give a **** about you_ attitude and being confident is far from being the same thing.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

bornwild said:


> In my case I am mainly just kind of rebellious towards authority and society.


Is that all it takes?

I have an almost compulsive need to rebuke authority. Fex. I have been a total pain at my job for years. I am regularly (have been for years) late to work by more than 2-3 hours and am prone to unpredictable absenteeism. They've tried everything. Ultimatums don't work on me, I never even explain why I am late or whatever. It's a miracle I haven't been fired. Some people at the job tell me they're scared to approach me because I intimidate them. And finally, I am actually banned from talking to our clients when things are going wrong because they think I'll chew the client out instead of trying to placate him.

I (alongwith other students) would regularly bully the professors at my college to extend deadlines and such, and would sometimes deliberately undermine their authority by cutting them out during the recruitment process etc.

I smoke and drink, insult religion, and refuse to follow traditions to the horror of my very, very traditional Indian (that should tell you how traditional) family.

If all it takes is a little rebelliousness towards authority and tradition etc., I have it in truckloads, but I am a 29 year old virgin.

I think *having some kind of social dominance* (whereby people think you're awesome), be it through money or fame or physical force (the ability to beat people up) or charm is essential. Which I suppose could be acquired via a rebellious image in some cases, like you'd be infamous if you were a gang member among ordinary people. *Anything that advertises you as a social "better"*, I suppose. Since a lot of these things are achieved by flouting established norms, that could lead to the mistaken belief that rebelling against the norms is what makes you desirable, rather than what you achieve with the rebellion.

I am a compulsive rebel, but that rebellion does not set me apart as a social better from others, so it's not attractive.


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## bornwild (Apr 27, 2011)

Qolselanu said:


> I wouldn't say girls like bad boys directly.
> 
> Bad boys tend to be confident.
> You have to be confident to approach/ask a girl out.
> ...


I'm afraid that is kind of true. :rain


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

TPower said:


> Attractive women are attracted to _bad boys_, they don't like them.
> 
> Those women get attention from pretty much every man on earth. So when they end up finding a guy who doesn't bend his knees for them, they'll need to feel like they're still desirable. They'll be willing to prove to themselves they can seduce him.
> 
> At the end of the day, women are in love with their own ego. Not with the man. They like the feelings a man can make them feel. Not the man.


I really do think this explains it, for the most part. Incredibly well-said.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

I have a 20 year old cousin who is a pathological and extremely brazen liar (you could catch him being dishonest but he'll still cling on to his lies), has failed classes and repeated the year two or three times now, doesn't have a job, wants to drop out of college, lives off his parents and wears a ****ing jacket in 35 degree weather.

His sister says that all the girls at his college and his previous school are crazy about him.

The mind boggles.


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

heroin said:


> I have a 20 year old cousin who is a pathological and extremely brazen liar (you could catch him being dishonest but he'll still cling on to his lies), has failed classes and repeated the year two or three times now, doesn't have a job, wants to drop out of college, lives off his parents and wears a ****ing jacket in 35 degree weather.
> 
> His sister says that all the girls at his college and his previous school are crazy about him.
> 
> The mind boggles.


Yeah. And I'd bet that most of these girls see past his facade after a few dates, or if they still like him, are codependent or ****s. Neither of those types of girls are very appealing normally.


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## Anemone (Apr 12, 2011)

I do hate these threads that lump all women together as one evil, self centered, man eating entity. 

The problem you have is that you think all women are the same. THEY ARENT. If you stop letting SOME womens actions speak for the whole population of women, you might have more chance with them. You know, get to know them personally, what they PERSONALLY like, and stop trying to figure out what WOMEN want. Find out what a particular woman wants, not what women in general want.

*Edit* I like shy guys. Quiet, thoughtful types. I find the types of men you are describing in this thread EXTREMELY unattractive. Its a huge turn off for me. And I know I'm not the only one. The only thing mentioned that I do find attractive is rebelling against authority. In some situations.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Anemone said:


> I do hate these threads that lump all women together as one evil, self centered, man eating entity.
> 
> The problem you have is that you think all women are the same. THEY ARENT. If you stop letting SOME womens actions speak for the whole population of women, you might have more chance with them. You know, get to know them personally, what they PERSONALLY like, and stop trying to figure out what WOMEN want. Find out what a particular woman wants, not what women in general want.
> 
> *Edit* I like shy guys. Quiet, thoughtful types. I find the types of men you are describing in this thread EXTREMELY unattractive. Its a huge turn off for me. And I know I'm not the only one. The only thing mentioned that I do find attractive is rebelling against authority. In some situations.


After this post, you are most likely going to be labeled by the usual suspects as either:

1). A very small minority making up 0.24345% of the female population

2). Unattractive or low-status since you are "lowering your standards"

3). A PC liberal bleeding heart

Take your pick. :|


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

To me they are all the same. So far. I know what you're going to say though. You are 20 and never even been with a girl before so how do you know everything. Well, it's not that hard to figure stuff out.

My response to all women who deny to being shallow, deceptive, and hypocritical is to show proof with their real actions. 

Prove you are not shallow. 

Prove you aren't a hypocritical feminist.

Prove you aren't into jerks and douches.

Prove you are attracted to what you say.

Don't just say it. Prove it.

So far, not many have. Not even to those of us "alternative" males. Maybe most just can't?

Until you do, those of us males who can see "outside the box" will know things.


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## mooncake (Jan 29, 2008)

stranger25 said:


> To me they are all the same. So far. I know what you're going to say though. You are 20 and never even been with a girl before so how do you know everything. Well, it's not that hard to figure stuff out.
> 
> My response to all women who deny to being shallow, deceptive, and hypocritical is to show proof with their real actions.
> 
> ...


Oh, you again.


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## mooncake (Jan 29, 2008)

^ teehee.


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## sarafinanickelbocker (May 16, 2010)

I like a good man with a hint of naughty.


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## Anemone (Apr 12, 2011)

Ivan AG said:


> After this post, you are most likely going to be labeled by the usual suspects as either:
> 
> 1). A very small minority making up 0.24345% of the female population
> 
> ...


Its probably true that less women think this way. But its no where near as low numbers as that.

I'm fairly attractive and I have an attractive boyfriend that I'm very happy with. So no lowering of standards there.

And I'm not sat here feeling sorry for anyone's plight, or trying to help anyone, or make out that I care. I just wanted to give my opinion, that's what I thought forums were for.

So I'm not overly bothered.










If all women are as shallow as is being discussed here, then why do you want one anyway?

If I believed what many women believe, that all men are only after one thing (and all those other stereotypical things that are said/assumed about men), then I think I would be severely limiting my chances with a lot of men. Because men would have to prove that my pre-judgments of them were wrong. I might assume that I had no real chance of a relationship with them, or that they would just use me and then dump me, or play around with my feelings some way.

Its a severely self-limiting way to think. Its just my opinion.


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## Akane (Jan 2, 2008)

Generally I'm attracted to introverted nerds/geeks. I'm instantly turned off by very outgoing guys especially if they've been drinking. Online they get an instant block from me. In rl it's a little harder to get rid of them. My sister is the same even though she's very outgoing herself.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

It's female human nature to be attracted to bad boys. A guy that portrays a bad boy image is likely to be:

1. A guy that isn't afraid to get in a fight, if necessary. Women are usually not as strong as men, so it's natural for them to have the desire for protection. Bad boys are usually guys that can provide that protection.
2. Assertive. Women love guys that are willing to stand up for what they want and believe in. Assertiveness is a sign of strength in character. Big turn on for the ladies.
3. Interesting. If a guy is a bad boy, that means he's going to be a different than nicer guys that always try to do the right thing. Women don't like getting bored in a relationship, so even if the bad boy is causing trouble like many of them do or have caused trouble in the past, it gives the relationship a spark.
4. Aggressive. I'm not talking about punching someone aggressive. Women tend to like a guy that is aggressive in the sack. Bad boys tend to be the occasional hair-pulling type. 
5. In control. Naturally, women like a man in control. This goes towards a woman's natural desire for a father that can be in charge. If a guy can be in control of certain people in life, he can probably be a good father in charge (in control over) of children.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

anymouse said:


> why'd you go and have to simplify it all in some sort of outline format? try to make it more confusing for the readers.. this board loves its gender debate-- don't go and ruin it with clarity.


I'm confused with your answer. I have three questions, did you agree with what I wrote? Did you like what I wrote? Were you being sarcastic?


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

anymouse said:


> everything you wrote hit home. for a stereotypical female.
> because i do not want to appear as such, my post was sarcastic.
> but yes, it was a beautiful five point post. for sterotypical gender preferences. i must insist i do not have those.. i am an individual! :|


Wouldn't you agree that stereotypes can be true?


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

I'd like to add something else. What is wrong with a woman liking bad boys? I never once said there is anything wrong with women liking bad boys. 

So, if you are trying to say my post is intended to degrade women, you are wrong.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

anymouse said:


> many men i know like to have dominant women. for example, i have an uncle who's a lawyer who's very strong in the courtroom but prefers women to tell him what to do in his personal life. he adores that. many men do. we live in a confusing world, i just appreciated the clarity of your points.


Ah, but we aren't talking about what men want out of a woman. We are talking about what women want out of men.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

anymouse said:


> your five points seem to hit on all the dominant themes. these have probably been pored over in excess on this board, as they seem to love the boysVSgirls threads, but i don't know, i usually ignore the gender debates. but i've been here over a year and never seen them laid out so clearly/quickly. cheers.


Whoa now, how is this a girls vs. boys thing at all? In my post, I listed reasons why women are into bad boys. In no way am I saying that's a bad thing that women are into bad boys, and in no way am I putting one sex over another.

What is bad about liking a guy who is willing to fight for you? What is bad about a wanting a man that is assertive?

When you say my post is a girls vs. boys thing, you make it sound like I'm the bad guy. You make it sound like I'm trying to say women are somehow weaker, which is what I'm clearly not saying.

There is no versus here at all. This isn't some war. This is a simple observation of nature. Just like how men think about sex more than women. It's nature. I'm not saying any sex is "better" than the other.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

anymouse said:


> why yes. yes i do. because i am a category. a stereotype. clearly drawn to a stereotype of 'bad boy' or 'nice guy' every time.


Fittingly, whenever a "nice guy" tries to explain what he means by someone being a "bad boy," the bad boy always comes across as an unbelievable caricature rather than a real person.

Maybe rather than trying to figure out what women are like, all these people should first figure out what _men _are like.


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## sarafinanickelbocker (May 16, 2010)

anymouse said:


> quite possible you'll be sent to hell for that admission. or something. :|




Oh my.


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## FadeToOne (Jan 27, 2011)

Notice however how not a single one of these "and this is how to pick up girls" advice videos/articles end up with "and that is how I met my current long term significant other that I'm confident will be with me always".


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## sarafinanickelbocker (May 16, 2010)

^ I wish there was a "like" button. hehe


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

rednosereindeer said:


> Fittingly, whenever a "nice guy" tries to explain what he means by someone being a "bad boy," the bad boy always comes across as an unbelievable caricature rather than a real person.


I never said every bad boy has all of the 5 points I listed. I don't see how any of the points I listed are "unbelievable." All those points are qualities that many men have. You're telling me a man can't be assertive?


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

IcemanKilmer said:


> It's female human nature to be attracted to bad boys. A guy that portrays a bad boy image is likely to be:
> 
> 1. A guy that isn't afraid to get in a fight, if necessary. Women are usually not as strong as men, so it's natural for them to have the desire for protection. Bad boys are usually guys that can provide that protection.
> 2. Assertive. Women love guys that are willing to stand up for what they want and believe in. Assertiveness is a sign of strength in character. Big turn on for the ladies.
> ...


The real shame is that I am absolutely totally turned off by women looking for those characteristics in guys. I am pretty brash and belligerent, but the type of women that go for the personality type you mentioned just seem like they're looking for "daddy" instead of a boyfriend. One who'll take care of them, protect them from the big, bad world, spoil them silly and tell them what to do. They'll always be "daddy's little sweet princess" in the relationship.

And yes, there are many, many, I'd say even the majority of the female population on earth looking for that kind of partner. You needn't look further than the popularity of the romance novel.

But to me it's a total turn off, and significantly reduces the number of women that I'm attracted to. Sometimes I wish I really did find those women attractive. Would definitely give me a lot more options than I have now.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I'm an incredible ball of naughtyness. I suprise myself how badass I am. In fact, when I confronted Justin Timberlake on how he should step up a few notches on his coolness factor he totally agreed and decided to take me and my long hair out to lunch. After that, I punched him in his gut because that's what I do--I'm bad! I'm so bad Batman was called in on me all the way from Gothom City (wherever the heck that is!). When Batman knocked on my door I also punched him in his face and stole his Batmobile. There is none badder than I. One time in band camp....no, wait.... one time in high school the principle called me in his office because of my badness and when I got in there he shut the door, gave me a beer and congratulated me on my total rebelnusnus. I made that word up "rebelnusnus". Billy Idol once called me to fill him in for one of his gigs in NYC one time but I couldn't make it because I was too busy filling my role as Austin Powers (the one with good teeth). I can't believe they didn't make a Fabio out of me and put me on "I can believe it's not butter"...but i suppose that's because I'd melt all that butter from the container and burn little children trying spread toast on their "goody-good" little pieces of toasts! One of my testicles fights with the other one to determine who's going to be the "chosen" testicle to spread my badness gene from my bad.... never mind... that's so bad you wouldn't even understand. I'm so bad! I make George Thorogood jealous and I wear leather underwear! I'd put that cool shade emotion faced on this post but he wouldn't understand me either because it's beyond his comprehension the level of cool I am... to be or not to be..cool is the question...badass


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

anymouse said:


> "girlfriend, precious, i'm here-- step away from the window.."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In this case it doesn't, regardless of the song being a good one.

Think romance novel hero rather than obsessive creep.


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## IsThereAComputerOption (Apr 15, 2011)

It's a natural evolutionary trait that women are predisposed to look for in a mate. There are a lot of things that human beings instinctively like and look out for, but there are exceptions.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

As in most other cases with achieving social success, social life and social personality are far more important than portraying a bad boy image. 

I guess you could be a very quiet bad boy, and not get any women. It does seem like most bad boys are outgoing, though. It seems assertiveness, aggressiveness and outgoingness tend to go hand in hand.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

anymouse said:


> another pointed out that 'princess' lookin for 'daddy' is icky


I don't think it is "icky" as such. For those who want an arrangement like that, go ahead, have fun. But personally, I wouldn't want to be in a relationship like that.


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## BKrakow (Jul 8, 2010)

joinmartin said:


> So what's more attractive than a bad boy? A hybrid boy, that's what. Someone who is unafraid to be confident and be themselves, doesn't need her to validate him but still has those "nice guy" qualities going on.


this is spot-on! I think this is what most women--if not most people in general--would prefer. someone who's a nice guy with a little bit of an edge to him. I mean, it's not like you can't have traits of both. you can be an honest, decent, faithful person without being a goody two shoes.

I also want to offer a bit of a different perspective for the guys here, many of whom seem to be distressed over the presumption that women only want bad boys. I fell for a bad boy when I was younger and much more naive, but it wasn't because bad boys were my type, it was because he was a manipulative person and knew how to make himself come across as a good guy, if you know what I mean. he had a lot of experience with girls so he was a smooth talker, made me feel like I was the only girl in the world with his compliments. of course his true colors eventually showed, but that was only after he had fooled me with his sweet, loving act and by that point I was hooked and it wasn't so easy to leave. eventually I saw the light, thank god, but it took a while. and most, if not all, of my female friends have gone through the same situation.

anyway, I guess my point is, it only seems like women fall for the bad boy types constantly because the bad boy types tend to have "game" and know how to fool women into thinking they're good guys in order to get what they want. no sane woman is going to be into a guy who treats her like crap from the get-go; these men put on the sweet perfect boyfriend act and their true colors don't come out until later, when the girl is already emotionally hooked.

women just like men with a bit of finesse in general, and unfortunately bad boys tend to have more of it than nice, shy boys. (not talking about cheesy pick up artist crap either, more like...a well-timed compliment, opening/holding doors, knowing when to make physical contact, etc.)


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

bkitty1 said:


> no sane woman is going to be into a guy who treats her like crap from the get-go; these men put on the sweet perfect boyfriend act and their true colors don't come out until later, when the girl is already emotionally hooked.


bingo


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

lol

I like the new terminology, JM.

"Hybrid boy".

Best of both worlds.


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## IsThereAComputerOption (Apr 15, 2011)

bkitty1 said:


> I guess my point is, it only seems like women fall for the bad boy types constantly because the bad boy types tend to have "game" and know how to fool women into thinking they're good guys in order to get what they want.


Time to learn how to lie and deceive. It's just a shame that when people are younger they pretty much always fall for the bad boy routine, and at the age when women have figured it out, the guys who aren't like that are socially stunted.


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## strugglingforhope (Jun 13, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> So what's more attractive than a bad boy? A hybrid boy, that's what. Someone who is unafraid to be confident and be themselves, doesn't need her to validate him but still has those "nice guy" qualities going on.


A hybrid? I hate to say it, but I don't believe these guys exist. A mans either faking being confident/full of himself or faking being sensitive/caring. You can't be selfless and selfish at the same time. If they're in the middle of the spectrum they don't have strengths in either. We're all trying to appear to be the mythical 'hybrid' man that's in all the movies and who every other girls 'man' seems to be on the outside.

Kitties experience with bad boys further illustrates my point: "was a manipulative person and knew how to make himself come across as a good guy." You hear this all the time - I grew up with people like this I knew the person they really were, but i knew they knew how to come across as a good guy - and thus were successful at appearing to be the hybrid. Unfortunately the guys on the other end of the spectrum tend to not be able to establish attraction as well - so we often don't get a real chance.


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## madsv (Mar 19, 2010)

strugglingforhope said:


> A hybrid? I hate to say it, but I don't believe these guys exist. A mans either faking being confident/full of himself or faking being sensitive/caring. You can't be selfless and selfish at the same time. If they're in the middle of the spectrum they don't have strengths in either. We're all trying to appear to be the mythical 'hybrid' man that's in all the movies and who every other girls 'man' seems to be on the outside.
> 
> Kitties experience with bad boys further illustrates my point: "was a manipulative person and knew how to make himself come across as a good guy." You hear this all the time - I grew up with people like this I knew the person they really were, but i knew they knew how to come across as a good guy - and thus were successful at appearing to be the hybrid. Unfortunately the guys on the other end of the spectrum tend to not be able to establish attraction as well - so we often don't get a real chance.


Of course you can be both things. I know a lot of people who are like this.

It is not impossible at all to know what you want and treat people well at the same time.


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## strugglingforhope (Jun 13, 2009)

madsv said:


> Of course you can be both things. I know a lot of people who are like this.
> 
> It is not impossible at all to know what you want and treat people well at the same time.


In a sense I read your statement, it's true; of course that is possible. But I'm getting at who the person really is - and what their motives really are. 'knowing what you want' isn't a very descriptive word towards the type of person i was referring to. The thing is you can treat others well, but are you only doing it for the fact that girls will mistake you as a truly kind man?

Well how well do you really 'know' these people? I've known a lot of people that are very very good at being deceptive - it's almost essential. I'm not making assumptions about people I'm acquainted with or short time friends either.


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## stylicho (Nov 8, 2003)

Bad boys bad boys what ya gonna do :lol. I have to agree pretty much with what Logan said. People who think they are "bad" usually aren't. They are more like fools.


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

Lol, I think it's funny how most everyone responding is male. What girl is going to tell the truth on a public forum if she likes "bad boys", knowing that she will probably be attacked for it? 

Well, I'll chime in anyway. Nice guys (and I don't mean the fake "nice guys" who have a grudge against women because they are insecure) have longer, more fulfilling relationships. They may not get the most sex but when they get a girl, they have a better chance of keeping her around.

I had similar anti-feminist views in college because I was so insecure. I think you grow out of it when you get older (and also because older women are simply more mature)


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## i just want luv (Feb 13, 2011)

hehe I always got my mysteriousnesseses on.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

kev said:


> I had similar anti-feminist views in college because I was so insecure. I think you grow out of it when you get older (and also because older women are simply more mature)


Dear lord!

Please consider that people might disagree with feminist dogma not because they're "insecure", but because they simply do not agree with it.

And no, older women are not necessarily more mature. In fact, most older people I've met aren't and those included a lot of women.


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

heroin said:


> Dear lord!
> 
> Please consider that people might disagree with feminist dogma not because they're "insecure", but because they simply do not agree with it.
> 
> And no, older women are not necessarily more mature. In fact, most older people I've met aren't and those included a lot of women.


I'm not exactly sure what feminist dogma is - maybe I used the wrong words - I just sort of went with what I thought it meant. What I really mean is that I used to think I was superior because I was "so nice" and all the college girls were so "vindictive" and "cruel." Yeah, a lot of them were, but not all of them. Really, I was the mean, bitter one, for thinking I was better than everyone else, and I was so nice, and yet no one would date me - it's because I never asked a single girl out, not because I was "too nice."

Excuse me if I used the wrong words.

Older women are on average more interested in settling down and aren't interested in as much chaos or partying on average. That's all I meant.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

kev said:


> I'm not exactly sure what feminist dogma is - maybe I used the wrong words - I just sort of went with what I thought it meant.


Correlating views that are incompatible with feminism (anti-feminist) with insecurity.



kev said:


> I had similar anti-feminist views in college because I was so insecure.


Probably shouldn't have labelled the nice guy thing as "anti-feminism".


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## MojoCrunch (Mar 25, 2011)

Bad boys are cool. But I'd probably get sick of them at the same rate as any other guy. Depends on the person and how he treats me.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

I like the song "Bad Boys"


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## ravenzthirdeye (Mar 29, 2010)

I found that out to, i also think alot of older women aren't mostly mature. My Ex, who i still love as a person, falls in that category of not being very mature.



heroin said:


> Dear lord!
> 
> Please consider that people might disagree with feminist dogma not because they're "insecure", but because they simply do not agree with it.
> 
> And no, older women are not necessarily more mature. In fact, most older people I've met aren't and those included a lot of women.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Deathinmusic said:


> A while ago I saw a good video on youtube where a girl basically articulates what we all instinctively know to be true. Girls often say they want "nice", but what they actually respond to is something very different. I can understand why they do this. I'm sure most of them WANT to be into the nice guy but unfortunately that just doesn't tend to make the panties wet.


Are you serious? When are we going to kill this idea? :no


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I'm confident in myself, but I don't treat people like crap. Guys, stop asking yourself what kind of girl goes for what types and start looking at the quality of the girl! If the girl is hot and goes for people who treat her like crap, there are issues with that girl, and even though you can say a hot girl wants a "challenge" or something to "chase", if that is a valid excuse, then there is something unstable about that.

A "nice guy" doesn't mean a man is a push over. That would be a "push over". What is so confusing about that? There are PLENTY of nice guys who have girlfriends of all types. I see it all the time and know a lot of them. You guys are so confused it hurts me because I went through the same confusion, and the reason why it's confusing because people like YOU further push the "nice guy" term like it is the same as an insecure leach! Come on, keep it simple and stop using PUA terms to twist a nice guy into a "nice guy". A nice guy is a nice guy regardless of whether he is insecure or not! Wow, man...


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## Misanthropic79 (May 6, 2011)

This thread reminded me of a couple I used to know. She would deliberately flirt with guys and he would instantly snap if they reciprocated and would knock them out cold. He had that punch worked out perfectly.

He showed me his bruised up knuckles one day after the previous night out and when I saw him the next day his wrist was plastered. I asked him what happened and he said

"We were at the club and she bumped into this guy she knew from school, he tapped her on the shoulder and I knocked him out."

I looked at her and she had this demonic grin on her face:no

2 nights, 2 knockouts and she's grinning like a sociopath.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

I like kind, gentlemanly, thoughtful boys.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Misanthropic79 said:


> This thread reminded me of a couple I used to know. She would deliberately flirt with guys and he would instantly snap if they reciprocated and would knock them out cold. He had that punch worked out perfectly.
> 
> He showed me his bruised up knuckles one day after the previous night out and when I saw him the next day his wrist was plastered. I asked him what happened and he said
> 
> ...


Guys, this the kind of girl you want? If so, then being a "bad boy" would be perfect for you! The boyfriend is just as bad as the girl in this case. Obviously, they like this unstable relationship and they like to manipulate people. This is how they get off, but it is not healthy because it does nothing for them but boosts some sick perversion (ego) they personally get from it, which is a fleeting one at that. On the outside, however, people see this behavior as disturbing, selfish and manipulative. In other words, unless someone is also unstable, they would not want that reaction upon them, and that is why people disfavor instability, because it threatens them just being associated with the couple (i.e.: "if I hang out with this couple their acts will also inflict upon me")


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

bwidger85 said:


> A "nice guy" doesn't mean a man is a push over. That would be a "push over". What is so confusing about that?


What exactly would you consider a pushover? Someone who doesn't like confrontation? Someone who loses a physical fight? Someone who gets mugged, or bullied on the school playground?

I've always wondered where the line is that you need to cross to be in pushover territory.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

bwidger85 said:


> A "nice guy" doesn't mean a man is a push over. That would be a "push over". What is so confusing about that? There are PLENTY of nice guys who have girlfriends of all types. I see it all the time and know a lot of them. You guys are so confused it hurts me because I went through the same confusion, and the reason why it's confusing because people like YOU further push the "nice guy" term like it is the same as an insecure leach! Come on, keep it simple and stop using PUA terms to twist a nice guy into a "nice guy". A nice guy is a nice guy regardless of whether he is insecure or not! Wow, man...


But the fact that your "seeing nice guys with girlfriends" is even noteworthy or contentious to begin with says something, doesn't it?

The reality is that virtually no "bad boys" have trouble attracting women. Some nice guys get women, but some don't. Being a douche is almost always a guarantee of sexual success for a man. (Not that he will succeed with every woman; just that there will exist a decent proportion of women who he'll succeed with, which is not true for a lot of nice guys).


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

stopitidontlikeit said:


> I would argue that women who go after bad boys are lowering their standards.


Why? If bad boys are attractive to them, then this logic makes no sense.

The dating "market" illustrates what types of people are generally most valuable to the opposite sex. Most of us would probably agree that bad boy types are more likely to have a beautiful woman at their side than most other types of men. Thus, it stands to reason that bad boys are relatively valuable on the dating market. Many of the women who date bad boys _do_ have standards -- they're just not standards that we, as shy males, agree with or understand.

Personally, I think the whole "women date bad boys because of self-esteem issues" deal is a crock of sh1t. The ones who date bad boys largely do it because they _want_ to. Plain and simple. "She just doesn't think she deserves any better" is another one you hear a lot... LOLOL... riiiiight. I'm sure there are millions upon millions of women across the country crying themselves to sleep every night next to their tattoo-covered, drug-dealer, abusive BF, pining away for a nice, sterile, safe, predictable guy who treats them with respect. Because we're _so_ hard to find.

The market don't lie.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

anomalous said:


> Why? If bad boys are attractive to them, then this logic makes no sense.
> 
> The dating "market" illustrates what types of people are generally most valuable to the opposite sex. Most of us would probably agree that bad boy types are more likely to have a beautiful woman at their side than most other types of men. Thus, it stands to reason that bad boys are relatively valuable on the dating market. Many of the women who date bad boys _do_ have standards -- they're just not standards that we, as shy males, agree with or understand.
> 
> ...


Are you claiming women like to be treated like crap? Or maybe your deinfition of a "bad boy" has a more confident male role to it rather than a negative one. In that case, then your right. My view is that a "bad boy" treats women like crap, and so naturally it makes sense there are underlying issues involved with someone who wants to be treated that way. If you disagree, I'd like to know your reasons for it. How is it a crock of sh!t? Tell me why your so right..


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

anomalous said:


> But the fact that your "seeing nice guys with girlfriends" is even noteworthy or contentious to begin with says something, doesn't it?
> 
> The reality is that virtually no "bad boys" have trouble attracting women. Some nice guys get women, but some don't. Being a douche is almost always a guarantee of sexual success for a man. (Not that he will succeed with every woman; just that there will exist a decent proportion of women who he'll succeed with, which is not true for a lot of nice guys).


What is your evidence for this? Is this just what you think or do you have proof that "most" women prefer bad men? How can you be certain that being a "douche" is more effective? How do you personally know that as FACT. From what you've heard or seen? OK, that is a good reason, but don't forget that I have seen different and there is evidence around you constantly that state both realities are correct. If you put a "douche" guy into a group of insecure women (women who knowingly or unknowingly _LIKE_ to be treated like ****), chances are he'll come out on top over a guy who is nice. On the other hand, if you put a "nice guy" into a room where the women have similar beliefs as the nice guy, he will come out on top over the bad guy because the women may be offended by the bad guy. It depends on the woman.

You say the "market" is evidence? The market is more geared towards making money than being correct in a lot of cases, and selling the idea that a "bad boy" is more attractive to women is as subjective as the next book that claims being a "pure gentlemen" is just as effective. Personal experience is far more factual than the market because personal experience is truth set in motion before your eyes and not by what a business person creates. Yet, you may argue that you personally have seen "bad bays" attract women. OK, I believe you in that because I think your right, but I've also witnessed genuine nice men do the same. What does that say about the majority vote that "most" or "all" women prefer bad boys? It states that it is subjective and it only plays a part of what the majority of women want. Why? Because I have also seen the opposite of what you claim. In fact, I see both. Do you understand what I'm saying? Basically, some women like that about men and some don't.

I think what confuses most people is that they use a term ("bad boy" or "nice guy") and categorize it so tightly in that it defines a person or class of people in their entireties. That is being narrow minded at its best UNLESS you have proof your correct, which I have seen is not the case.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

heroin said:


> What exactly would you consider a pushover? Someone who doesn't like confrontation? Someone who loses a physical fight? Someone who gets mugged, or bullied on the school playground?
> 
> I've always wondered where the line is that you need to cross to be in pushover territory.


To me, a pushover is anyone who doesn't stand up for themselves or their beliefs and let people walk all over them. They are easily manipulated and succumb to pressures regardless if they believe them or not. A pushover would allow another person to take advantage of them knowingly.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

bwidger85 said:


> Are you claiming women like to be treated like crap? Or maybe your deinfition of a "bad boy" has a more confident male role to it rather than a negative one. In that case, then your right. My view is that a "bad boy" treats women like crap, and so naturally it makes sense there are underlying issues involved with someone who wants to be treated that way. If you disagree, I'd like to know your reasons for it. How is it a crock of sh!t? Tell me why your so right..


You have to look at shades of gray here. I'm not necessarily talking about men who beat their women to within inches of their lives. But I'm also not talking about a completely upstanding, kind, considerate dude who just happens to be confident, either. (Said kind/confident dude might well attract women too, but that's not what this thread is about).

To me, the quintessential "bad boy" type -- the one who's virtually guaranteed to attract a good number of women, barring some exceptional failing in another area (like looks) -- is _over_confident, inconsiderate, selfish, and talks down to women. He doesn't treat them with respect and believes himself to be inherently superior. He is aggressive, with a history dating back to grade school of bullying and taking advantage of people whenever he can get away with it. He takes a lot of unnecessary but flashy/sexy risks and has major vices -- perhaps weaving his motorcycle between traffic at 90 mph; perhaps pushing hard drugs; perhaps excessive gambling.

*I'm not saying that all, or even most, women are attracted to guys like this.* I'm simply saying that if a guy is like this, he's virtually guaranteed to have a fairly large pool of women to choose from. Whether that pool constitutes 10% or 30% or 50% of all women is immaterial; either way, he still has a lot of options. Whereas, if you're a "nice guy," you *might* have extremely limited or no options. Some nice guys still do attract lots of women; I won't deny that. Maybe I need to draw a Venn Diagram or something.

Am I insane, or does anyone get what I'm saying? It's utterly impossible to make claims that even tangentially counter PC, feminist dogma here without them being misconstrued and overblown. Pay attention to the details, folks.

As for why girls would "like to be treated like sh.t," don't ask me. We know there are some out there. To be frank, I've seen more than a couple girls on SAS flat-out admit to it, actually. Again, though, you have to consider the spectrum of what constitutes "treating like sh.t." The most flagrant examples probably aren't something hardly any women consciously want. But the most subtle examples are probably things that many women think of merely as being "manly" and "confident" and "taking charge," whereas I think of them as being rude and disrespectful.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

anomalous said:


> You have to look at shades of gray here. I'm not necessarily talking about men who beat their women to within inches of their lives. But I'm also not talking about a completely upstanding, kind, considerate dude who just happens to be confident, either. (Said kind/confident dude might well attract women too, but that's not what this thread is about).


OK, then what the heck are you talking about? A guy who is the middle or in the "gray" area between the examples above?

Hm, but what a minute here...(read below)



> To me, the quintessential "bad boy" type -- the one who's virtually guaranteed to attract a good number of women, barring some exceptional failing in another area (like looks) -- is _over_confident, inconsiderate, selfish, and talks down to women. He doesn't treat them with respect and believes himself to be inherently superior. He is aggressive, with a history dating back to grade school of bullying and taking advantage of people whenever he can get away with it. He takes a lot of unnecessary but flashy/sexy risks and has major vices -- perhaps weaving his motorcycle between traffic at 90 mph; perhaps pushing hard drugs; perhaps excessive gambling.


...but yet, in this paragraph you state a bad boy as being more in a category of negative. There is no "gray" area between being negative or positive. Your either one or the other. You say I need to look at the gray area? Your contradicting yourself and these two above paragraphs prove it. Bottom line, you either treat someone like crap or you don't, that defines the main difference between a "bad boy" and a "nice guy" in my book and apparently yours as well.



> *I'm not saying that all, or even most, women are attracted to guys like this.* I'm simply saying that if a guy is like this, he's virtually guaranteed to have a fairly large pool of women to choose from. Whether that pool constitutes 10% or 30% or 50% of all women is immaterial; either way, he still has a lot of options. Whereas, if you're a "nice guy," you *might* have extremely limited or no options. Some nice guys still do attract lots of women; I won't deny that. Maybe I need to draw a Venn Diagram or something.


LOL. Math states that 50% is half of a whole. So where does that other 50% go to then? Simple math. Your just running in circles now trying to prove a point that holds little water. You claim that most bad boys get most of the girls but you don't even understand 5th grade mathematics. Where do you think the other 50% of that whole goes? Come on man... in the long run, your attitude and belief is going to hurt you because I'm telling you that your not seeing the whole picture. How can you claim that bad boys get the majority of women? Your statements above STILL have no reason to change my mind.

It is funny how your trying to say in the above paragraph that your claiming that you didn't say bad boys don't get the majority of girls....dude, just stop.... read your previous posts and you'll see your contradicting what you've said. You said that you think the majority of bad boys get the women.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

bwidger85 said:


> OK, then what the heck are you talking about then? A guy who is the middle or in the "gray" area between the examples above?
> 
> Hm, but what a minute here...(read below)
> 
> ...but yet, in this paragraph you state a bad boy as being more in a category of negative. You say I need to look at the gray area? Your contradicting yourself and these two above paragraphs prove it. Bottom line, you either treat someone like crap or you don't, that defines the main difference between a "bad boy" and a "nice guy" in my book and apparently yours as well.


The gray area is the area between a guy who's truly abusive and one who's kind and considerate. Try reading it again. There's really nothing more I can say here to make it easier for you.

LOL. Math states that 50% is half of a whole. So where does that other 50% go to then? Simple math. Your just running in circles now trying to prove a point that holds little water. You claim that most bad boys get most of the girls but you don't even understand 5th grade mathematics. Where do you think the other 50% of that whole goes? Come on man... in the long run, your attitude and belief is going to hurt you because I'm telling you that your not seeing the whole picture. How can you claim that bad boys get the majority of women? Your statements above STILL have no reason to change my mind.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure WTF "your" talking about, bro. I'm afraid "your" still not reading with care. I spent half my post describing in painstaking detail how I *DON'T* think that bad boys get "most of the girls."


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

This section is always very depressing to me. For this exact same reason.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

> I'm not sure WTF "your" talking about, bro. I'm afraid "your" still not reading with care. I spent half my post describing in painstaking detail how I *DON'T* think that bad boys get "most of the girls."


You say that in that post, sure, but in ALL the other posts you don't.:roll (read below)



> Being a douche is almost always a guarantee of sexual success for a man.


You have no proof, and to the benefit to all those guys who do not know any better, the truth is all around you. Don't be close-minded because it will hurt you.

EDIT: How can bad boys have more options of sex from a woman over a nice guy and that not being considered not getting more girls? Sorry, I just had to edit that one in there...


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

bwidger85 said:


> You have no proof, and to the benefit to all those guys who do not know any better, the truth is all around you. Don't be close-minded because it will hurt you.


The truth that I've observed around me was the inspiration for the posts I've made in this thread. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. That I need to go out into the world and observe human interactions and see how wrong I am? I do the former every day and it doesn't lead to the latter. Quite the opposite, in fact.



> EDIT: How can bad boys have more options of sex from a woman over a nice guy and that not being considered not getting more girls? Sorry, I just had to edit that one in there...


I already answered this a couple posts back, but I'll do it again anyway, just for you.

There will always be a subset of women who lust after the "bad boy." We can argue about the size of this subset all night, but the point is, it's big enough that they rarely have to worry about going sexless or girlfriendless. Like I said, it might only be 20% of women, or it might be 30%, or it might even be closer to 50%. The thing is, bad boys will always have a sizable base of mates from which to work with. Note that what I just said does not, in any way, imply that the _majority_ of women go after bad boys.

Now, in this latest post, you changed your wording to "bad boys getting more girls than nice guys," which is a bit different. I do think bad boys generally get more girls than nice guys. We're talking averages, of course. But, again, this does not necessarily mean that most or all women love bad boys.

A lot guys fall somewhere in between the two categories, as I see it. Perhaps the ideal man is a blend of both. The point I've been trying to make all along is that *if a man were faced with the choice of sacrificing either confidence or kindness, lacking confidence is far more detrimental, in terms of maximizing his sexual and romantic options.* IOW, a confident douche has more options than a nice doormat.

Timidity and unkindness are both vices, but one gets penalized far more in the game of female attraction, on average.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

bwidger85 said:


> Are you claiming women like to be treated like crap? Or maybe your deinfition of a "bad boy" has a more confident male role to it rather than a negative one. In that case, then your right. My view is that a "bad boy" treats women like crap, and so naturally it makes sense there are underlying issues involved with someone who wants to be treated that way. If you disagree, I'd like to know your reasons for it. How is it a crock of sh!t? Tell me why your so right..


No, women don't want to be treated like crap. They want to be treated well by men who possess the ability to treat others like crap. Whether they use that ability or not is a different matter. But that ability must be there.

Confidence = Assertiveness = Aggressiveness
Bravery = Thrill Seeking, Recklessness
Independence = Rule Breaking, not being constrained by conventions

You'd be totally on board if I said women like guys who are confident, brave and independent. But would recoil in moral horror if I said they like guys who are aggressive, thrill-seeking, reckless and prone to breaking laws or convention. When essentially those are the same qualities.

For the record, I don't give a **** if you're attracted to tattooed thugs who possess the ability to beat the crap out of a lot of people. It's the constant rationalization of it that I find tiresome. I don't think less of women who do like that kind of personality. We all have our quirks. But don't insult my intelligence by saying "oh it's because those women have low self-esteem". Seriously. Be happy with mr. bad boy. Just don't try to convince me that "he's just really misunderstood and a nice person under that odious personality".


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

^^
lol

"He carries a spiked club only because he's cares about me so much."


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## Catherine Cavatica (Feb 2, 2011)

I love bad boys in general :kiss 
I'm just so attracted to them, maybe it's the excitement or the fact that I'm not used to being with a nice guy.


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## Catherine Cavatica (Feb 2, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> I'm an incredible ball of naughtyness. I suprise myself how badass I am. In fact, when I confronted Justin Timberlake on how he should step up a few notches on his coolness factor he totally agreed and decided to take me and my long hair out to lunch. After that, I punched him in his gut because that's what I do--I'm bad! I'm so bad Batman was called in on me all the way from Gothom City (wherever the heck that is!). When Batman knocked on my door I also punched him in his face and stole his Batmobile. There is none badder than I. One time in band camp....no, wait.... one time in high school the principle called me in his office because of my badness and when I got in there he shut the door, gave me a beer and congratulated me on my total rebelnusnus. I made that word up "rebelnusnus". Billy Idol once called me to fill him in for one of his gigs in NYC one time but I couldn't make it because I was too busy filling my role as Austin Powers (the one with good teeth). I can't believe they didn't make a Fabio out of me and put me on "I can believe it's not butter"...but i suppose that's because I'd melt all that butter from the container and burn little children trying spread toast on their "goody-good" little pieces of toasts! One of my testicles fights with the other one to determine who's going to be the "chosen" testicle to spread my badness gene from my bad.... never mind... that's so bad you wouldn't even understand. I'm so bad! I make George Thorogood jealous and I wear leather underwear! I'd put that cool shade emotion faced on this post but he wouldn't understand me either because it's beyond his comprehension the level of cool I am... to be or not to be..cool is the question...badass


oohh baby SO HOT!! Love your work:clap BOOOM


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Catherine Cavatica said:


> I love bad boys in general :kiss
> I'm just so attracted to them, maybe it's the excitement or the fact that I'm not used to being with a nice guy.


There there, dear. :hug I'm sorry your self esteem is at rock bottom.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

anomalous said:


> A lot guys fall somewhere in between the two categories, as I see it. Perhaps the ideal man is a blend of both. The point I've been trying to make all along is that *if a man were faced with the choice of sacrificing either confidence or kindness, lacking confidence is far more detrimental, in terms of maximizing his sexual and romantic options.* IOW, a confident douche has more options than a nice doormat.
> 
> Timidity and unkindness are both vices, but one gets penalized far more in the game of female attraction, on average.


Bravo. Then we agree. It just sounded to me that people get the "bad boy" confused with a negative perk typically and "nice guy" confused with insecurity, or maybe that was my confusion. But when it comes to confidence, you can be either or.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

heroin said:


> No, women don't want to be treated like crap. They want to be treated well by men who possess the ability to treat others like crap. Whether they use that ability or not is a different matter. But that ability must be there.
> 
> Confidence = Assertiveness = Aggressiveness
> Bravery = Thrill Seeking, Recklessness
> ...


So without your big explanation, what your trying to say is a bad boy has confidence and a nice guy doesn't?

As far as insulting your intelligence. I don't think your stupid, but what other explanation can you give me that a woman would like being treated like crap if she didn't have some insecurity issues? I agree people in general like confidence and aggressiveness that is positive, but that doesn't mean you have to be a douche.


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## Catherine Cavatica (Feb 2, 2011)

It has been for years. I'm not going to argue with you. 

Weren't expecting that, hey??? 

None of us are here because we are perfect. Why should we be tearing each other apart when we have similar problems. Because I am female, you are male?????

I don't want to be abused, involved in illegal activity etc.

Maybe I just want someone strong to lean on when I feel weak. Someone who will fight for what they believe in. Someone with spunk.
I'm not neccessarily excluding shy and/or nice guys and saying I would NEVER be attracted to them. I'm just saying I tend to be more drawn to outspoken, confident men.


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## stylicho (Nov 8, 2003)

> I love bad boys in general I'm just so attracted to them, maybe it's the excitement or the fact that I'm not used to being with a nice guy.


Probably because you wouldn't know a "bad boy" if he came up and bit you on the ***. I always find it amusing when women enter this discussion as if they know what a "tough" guy is. I remember this hot chick who went to my high school. Well her "bad boy" boyfriend got in a fight and it looked like two imbeciles swinging at each other, no offense to imbeciles. But his opponent did fall down during the fray. After that she thought he was the baddest man since the lead singer of the Backstreet Boys came rolling through town . I'm not saying all women are like this. Some women do actually know how to fight because they train to and I would value their opinion much more than the average girl.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

stylicho said:


> Probably because you wouldn't know a "bad boy" if he came up and bit you on the ***. I always find it amusing when women enter this discussion as if they know what a "tough" guy is. I remember this hot chick who went to my high school. Well her "bad boy" boyfriend got in a fight and it looked like two imbeciles swinging at each other, no offense to imbeciles. But his opponent did fall down during the fray. After that she thought he was the baddest man since the lead singer of the Backstreet Boys came rolling through town . I'm not saying all women are like this. Some women do actually know how to fight because they train to and I would value their opinion much more than the average girl.


I say let the imbeciles fight. Let her adore the King imbecile. They are a match made in heaven.

I have a similar story. When I was eighteen I was over at a friend's apartment of mine. It was probably 12 or 1 am in the morning. We are just hanging out and out of nowhere we hear BAM! BAM! BAM!, someone pounding on the door. My friend opens the door and comes in a girl with a bloody noise crying and everything, so we immediately ask what's wrong and what happened. She says her boyfriend beat her up. The real crappy part was this girl was my friend's brotehr's girlfriend. Long story short, she ends up hanging out downstairs with us because she is affraid of going back upstairs. Time goes by and one of us asks why she is even in that relationship she says "It's because he thinks he is King ****". How can you say this girl didn't have some issues? She was getting the crap kicked out of her on a regular basis by some ******* and kept going back. Don't tell me that all women like this because a man is confident. That eludes the reality. The reality is that the guy was a felon who beats the hell out of women because what we found out that he is jealous constantly. Oh yeah, hm...yeah, that's so sexy. I felt sorry for the girl.

My friend's brother later comes down the stairs from the above balcony where they have their apartment and they start yelling at each other then make up as if it's all fine and dandy. She says we shouldn't call the cops, yada, yada, yada. We should have but didn't because we are stupid. So she goes back upstairs and the boyfriend is now in his brother's apartment with us as if everything is cool now. A little later he asks me to go ride with him in his car to go handle some business. I didn't of course, but we later find out he has a tin box in his car with a baseball bat. He is in jail now of course.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

bwidger85 said:


> So without your big explanation, what your trying to say is a bad boy has confidence and a nice guy doesn't?
> 
> As far as insulting your intelligence. I don't think your stupid, but what other explanation can you give me that a woman would like being treated like crap if she didn't have some insecurity issues? I agree people in general like confidence and aggressiveness that is positive, but that doesn't mean you have to be a douche.


No, I'm saying the kind of confidence or assertiveness that is attractive is often a subset of general aggression. Which can be directed towards the girl sometimes.

It's just that there is this apparently naive expectation from many women that that quality is really attractive but it'll never be directed at them. I say apparently because women are definitely smarter than that. I'm pretty sure they do know that they could be the target of the aggressiveness that is so attractive. But I suppose the expected thrill is worth the risk? Kinda like the adrenalin rush you may get when attempting dangerous stunts. You know you might be seriously harmed, but you do it anyway.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Initially, I can understand a woman being attracted to a man who has is confident whether he is nice or not. In that, I agree with you. My point of emphasis is after that initial agreement was made upon her. Basically, if she is continued to be disrespected and abused mentally/physical or whatever after a while of being together, then I don't understand why a woman would put up with that without some unstable roadblock within her. I guess one reason could be that she's invested so much time and energy into this guy that she can't do it, and I can even understand that, especially if there is children involved, but I still see that behavior to be based on some type of insecurity whether it be from the insecurity of the unknown or the abandonment of the known.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

What are some theories behind why women would prefer a bad boy?

The whole topic seems counter intuitive and illogical.

It would seem like a nicer, but confident and assertive man would be the better choice, and yet we have seen a preference towards druggies and former criminals with little regard for their partner's or their own well being. 

What gives?

Is this just another mystery of human nature?


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Ivan AG said:


> What are some theories behind why women would prefer a bad boy?
> 
> The whole topic seems counter intuitive and illogical.
> 
> ...


Like I said, people confuse terms like "nice guy" and "bad boy" mainly because there are so many different views on the same term that it confuses people. I say, like I've mentioned earlier, that it is stupid to use terms like these to label people because of this exact some reason: confusion.

So, once again, a push over is a push over and a nice guy is a nice guy...not anything in between or afar. Let's keep it simple or we argue with two different ideas of the same term...

EDIT: Whoops, sorry, we are tlaking about two different things...haha, ignore me then... my bad my bad


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## Rixy (Oct 4, 2009)

I'm bad at sports, and I'm a male. Does that suffice?


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

joinmartin said:


> No, much simpler. The aggression is not attractive. The confidence is. Two different things.


Yes, exactly. They are two different things. I know aggressive men but they are far from being confident. And the same men who are not confident but aggressive, women do not like that. Trust me, I lived with this ******* for a year and have known him since I was 17. He is NOT a confident person but he uses his "I am greater than thou" demeanor to cover up how fragile he is inside. Why else would someone act so outlandish and bizarre if they had no reason to cover up insecurities? Think about it.


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## bornwild (Apr 27, 2011)

This thread is a little harsh. Why do you feel the need to insult people? I was asking because I have been feeling bad about myself for having this bad attitude that I can't always control. (Which I made clear in my OP.)


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I don't think women like bad guys, at least the healthy ones don't. But they also don't want someone they can walk all over.

Another thing is, if someone is physically unattractive, then he's more likely to be given the "You're such a nice guy, but..." speech, than someone who's attractive. However, almost everyone has the chance to up their looks. I could stand to lose a few pounds, gain muscle, and get a better haircut. 

It's not that women are attracted to bad boys, either. It's that they mistake jerkiness for confidence, and most jerks tend to be attractive.


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## bornwild (Apr 27, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> It's not that women are attracted to bad boys, either. It's that they mistake jerkiness for confidence, and most jerks tend to be attractive.


I don't believe that women are quite as dumb as you portray them.


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## bornwild (Apr 27, 2011)

joinmartin said:


> Not sure who you're referring to. I'm certainly not seeking to insult people. People are free to believe and think as they wish as we all have our ways of working out what is true for us. However, it's very easy to get depressed when reading this board and it's important that some sort of balance be presented. Particularly when "the negative" becomes equated with "the real" as if they mean the same thing automatically.
> 
> It's okay for feel bad about yourself when you need to and your attitude is your own business. You're entitled to your views, beliefs and opinions. We all are. It's a debated issue with many sides.


I think it's mostly bwidger85 and maybe a couple of other people. I don't mind hearing opinions, it's when it gets degrading that bothers me.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Bornwild, if your referring to me insulting you then I didn't want to hurt your feelings if I did (if you are talking about me, idk). My main focus is just to point out some other realities that are happening in the real world and help people see there are two sides to the "bad boy" win-all argument. I think an open debate is very healthy because it helps people open up. If I have insulted anyone, I apologize. Also, I don't think anyone is incapable of not knowing something or w/e, I just think some may not be aware of the full scope of which they speak. That is where I come in. Don't get me wrong though, I don't know everything, but I do feel I can add some benefit to this specific topic without a bias approach to it.

From here on out, I'll do my best not to insult anyone by using words as "stupid" or w/e I said earlier. You guys aren't stupid. I was referring to the idea... still, a little inappropriate. I will try to be more appropriate from here on out. This debate is healthy though.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

joinmartin said:


> Men just can't leave the looks issue alone, can they? I've noticed this in my own thinking sometimes. "She must go on looks because that's what we do as men a lot of the time".
> 
> "nice guy" is about many things but it's not about how physically attractive (or not) you are. That said, who on earth is defining what is and what is not physically attractive in the first place? Again with the assumptions.
> 
> ...


Thank you, joinmartin. This was very eye opening.

And yes, if you're not comfortable with who you are, how do you expect a woman to like you for who you are? If you don't like yourself, you're not going to attract anybody that way.

I have noticed a pattern with "nice guys." They all seem to have a self destructive "I hate myself" pattern, and blame it on women. I should know, I've been there. However, it's not a girl's fault if she isn't attracted to you. And you shouldn't stereotype all women.

I think there are more women out there who like nice guys than you realize. They just don't like insecure guys.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

^^Using the term "nice guy" should be replaced with insecure guy because that is what it seems like most these people here are talking about. When I think of a nice guy I don't think of someone who isn't confident...I think of a nice guy, flat out. I realize I'm not going to change people using the label "nice guy", but it confuses so much people I think. "Nice guy" was a term invented by PUA community that is closely related to an "average frustrated chump". Oh, but on the contrary, a nice guy without a label is simply someone who treats others with respect. I wish we could ditch the PUA labels.

I remember when I was in the PUA mindset years ago...when someone called me nice I'd be insulted...lol...i've changed since then. It's a compliment. They aren't aware of my wannabe PUA mentality lol.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've scanned it.

The dichotomy, nice<<<>>>bad, is false in the sense that few people are one or the other.

There are positive traits like *decisiveness, clarity of thought, passion, courage, and ambition *which tend to correlate somewhat with being _controlling, single minded, obsessed, wreckless, and manipulative_. Those are mostly the positive traits minus an element of empathy.

In a social setting the italicized traits look a lot like the bolded traits. Men also know to tone it down a bit in order to get a foot in the door.

Many women are attracted to the bolded traits. Those may come along with the italicized traits, or morph into them. Most women past the age of 20 or so develop some ability to distinguish pretty early between the bolded traits and the itlicized traits. Some don't.

I think it's easier for a confident person who is maybe abit over the top to learn to be toughtful and considerate than it is for a considerate but pssive person to learn to be confident an assertive.

Underneath all of this seems to be a difficulty some men have accepting that they may not be all that much in demand. A tall, fit, outgoing, square jawed man who is also bright, thoughtful, and driven will probably do pretty OK socially. If you had a relaible way to measure how women respond to that guy, as opposed say to a soft, quiet, sincere but sometims petulant guy who is also thoughtfl and bright, but whose ambition gets derailed a bit, well the response to the first guy will on average be more positive. He'll have more women to choose from. That means by definition the odds of him attracting someone better looking ad all around attractive, like he is, are high. For Mr average, not so much. Duh.

There's no good way to redeem your ordinariness. You can accept and embrace the aspects of it you can't change, and that will set you up to make changes that are possible and which would help you beyond improvoing your dating prospects, but you won't catch up with Mr. almost perfect. And that's ok.

Be ok with who and what you are, without complaint or endless ruminating analysis, and you'll be ok in general.

Or, never let this go and be consumed by doubt and bitterness.

I've done both, and one is way ****ing better than the other.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

joinmartin said:


> How is it? You defined it as such but how is it in general terms? You're just labeling things here. Aggression is not a subset of confidence. And there are many forms of confidence that are attractive. One woman's arrogance is another woman's confidence.


See the word 'often' in that sentence.

Confidence is not always a subset of aggression. But if you are aggressive, that means you are very confident of coming off better in a confrontation. People do not jump into situations that they feel incapable of handling.

Sure, there are people out there who are not aggressive but still confident. However, they *as well as* the aggressive men both have confidence. The presence of non-aggressive confident men does not rule aggressive ones out. Besides, being aggressive is a pretty nice way of displaying that confidence.

Therefore, an aggressive guy has a lot of confidence which attracts women. QED.



joinmartin said:


> If a guy hits a girl or is aggressive towards her is not being confident. If you strike someone, you act as a coward.


Please don't bring out the canned PC phrases. Striking someone is not an act of cowardice. Can you demonstrate otherwise? You need plenty of confidence, and courage to strike someone and be convinced that you will be capable of withstanding the backlash.

And like I said, the girls don't want those guys hitting them. They want them to be *able* to hit anyone.



joinmartin said:


> And how do you know this? Beyond assumptions about women and what they do or do not know. They must be being naive? No other explanation could be possible?


And like I said, you have to be confident to be aggressive. Confidence is attractive. Therefore the confidence part, at the very least, of aggression is attractive. As for how I know, well, I've never seen a high school bully without a girlfriend. There are plenty of other similar situations.

Basically, the "hitting others" part of the aggression does not seem sufficient to negate the attraction created by the confidence.

I don't think the girls are naive and I never said they were. That expectation is naive. And I followed that up with the line that women are definitely not naive, so they are aware that the expectation they have is not always going to be fulfilled. But that doesn't seem enough to kill the attraction.



joinmartin said:


> I've been around quite a lot with women. Yet to meet one who truly lusted after a thug.


The guy doesn't have to be a thug (although a thug does tick many boxes, confidence, bravery, etc.), just aggressive.



joinmartin said:


> But the aggressiveness is not what is attractive. You decided to like confidence with aggression and assume they are the same thing when they are not. Confidence is the one that's attractive. Not the aggression.


The bottom line is that an aggressive man is attractive. Be it because of the confidence he has in order to be aggressive, or the aggression itself. We can split hairs there, but eventually aggressive men do not have much trouble finding partners.

Therefore, aggression is at best somewhat attractive and at worst, irrelevant.

Is Mike Tyson unattractive to the majority of women? He's violent, was convicted of rape and is in general an odious blabbermouth. Many, many women would be up for a roll in the hay with him.



joinmartin said:


> She doesn't want to get hit


Of course. I already admitted that.



joinmartin said:


> she doesn't want to see others get hit


Wanting to see someone get beat up is different from knowing the guy can if needed. So yeah, I think most women don't want to actually see someone getting beaten by their partner, but they'd certainly prefer a partner that possessed the ability.

However, an uncaring attitude to someone getting beat up is not as rare as you think and pretty acceptable among many women.
Peruse this thread for some examples.

It's certainly not a reason to break up or start finding their SO less attractive.



joinmartin said:


> and she doesn't want to constantly have to put up with an aggressive atmosphere when she's with her man.


She doesn't have to. Most of the time when her partner is being aggressive towards someone else, she's a bystander. And of course, she doesn't wish for him to get aggressive towards her.



joinmartin said:


> If you're dating a woman and you start beating other people up, she's going to think you're immature not gorgeous.


And you know this how?

Have you ever seen any examples of women breaking up with their partner if they had a scuffle at the bar?



joinmartin said:


> No, much simpler. The aggression is not attractive. The confidence is. Two different things.


Yes, two different things. But indistinguishable for practical purposes.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Atticus said:


> There are positive traits like *decisiveness, clarity of thought, passion, courage, and ambition *which tend to correlate somewhat with being _controlling, single minded, obsessed, wreckless, and manipulative_. Those are mostly the positive traits minus an element of empathy.
> 
> .......
> Many women are attracted to the bolded traits. Those may come along with the italicized traits, or morph into them.


Exactly what I mean. And I would also like to add that the negative aspects *don't seem sufficient enough to kill attraction*. So in a practical sense, being _controlling, single minded, obsessed, wreckless, and manipulative _does, in fact, attract women.

Oh yeah, I said it.

And you know what? That is OK. Nobody is telling you to change and find those qualities not attractive.



Atticus said:


> Most women past the age of 20 or so develop some ability to distinguish pretty early between the bolded traits and the itlicized traits.


Myth.



Atticus said:


> ....without complaint or endless ruminating analysis.....


What the **** else are forums for? :lol



Atticus said:


> Or, never let this go and be consumed by doubt and bitterness.


I'm bitter over many things, but not this issue. I don't particularly care about changing myself for purposes of dating.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

I think joinmartin has boiled this down to one essential trait that is, to me anyway, more important than most of what else is mentioned here:

it's how the man makes me feel. Mentally, physically, spiritually - it's the connections that are made. I would say that comes first.

for second, I'd go with the him being okay with himself thing. 

If those two things aren't there, everything else will eventually become unflavoured gelatin, I don't care how hard those muscles are. or how shiny the hair, etc etc. 

Someone being happy with him (or her) self will manifest itself in many potentially pleasing ways.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

heroin said:


> ...endless ruminating analysis...
> 
> *What the **** else are forums for?* :lol


Good point 

I suspect that you're a bit more detached from this conversation than a few other guys. If you identify too much with feeling victmized by "the way things are", then there's a point where discussing it becomes self abuse.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Atticus said:


> Good point
> 
> I suspect that you're a bit more detached from this conversation than a few other guys. If you identify too much with feeling victmized by "the way things are", then there's a point where discussing it becomes self abuse.


I am.

Mostly because I don't treat forum discussions as a search for truth. I present my observations and what I conclude from them and someone else can challenge it.

There are other reasons for detachment regarding this particular topic, but even without those I think I'd be able to carry on a civil discussion.

I agree that it is unhealthy to let this matter get to you, emotionally.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

leonardess said:


> it's how the man makes me feel. Mentally, physically, spiritually - it's the connections that are made. I would say that comes first.


Could you translate that into masculine? I don't speak whatever dialect you typed that in.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

heroin said:


> Could you translate that into masculine? I don't speak whatever dialect you typed that in.


what part of "how the man makes me feel" did you not get?


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

In response to joinmartin,

I once sat through a social train wreck of a drunk woman going around the room and listing what each of the men had, or more to the point didn't have going for him. She got to me and said "Well at least you're tall" and walked on  I thanked her profusely. Or not.

Mr almost perfect does of course vary, but I'm convinced that a man or woman's personality and physical attributes do create what we might call "demand". Demand can lead to volume (varied social/dating life), or a high price (especially attractive partner), or in rare instances, both. Enough with the crass economic analogy. 

Some people have more choices than others. This doesn't necessarily lead to a happy life, but from the perch of someone who has fewer options, I migh have liked to try and mess my life up by being with too many women. Maybe.

The better strategy for me though was to focus on one women. I've had two long term (10 yr +) relationships, and one was lousy, the other, current one, good. Even now, at 53 and in a somewhat stable place emotionally, I wonder what it's like tp be that guy at the gym who is about my age and can't seem to get through a workout without being hit on. Must be dreadful 

Iv learned to smile when I feel that way, the way you smile when you're just setting up for the picnic and a few raindrops fall. What can you do but try not to injure yourself by attempting to out lift the ****er :yes


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

joinmartin said:


> If a guy is being aggressive, he sees some sort of threat. And how are you confident if you feel threatened?


A threat is an external phenomenon. 
In the case of human aggression, the existence of a threat may have little to do with the confidence of the threatened.

The threat does not automatically go away if the person the threat is aimed at is "not threatened". Someone brandishing a pipe and threatening to beat you up with it is not just going to go away just because you don't feel threatened. The threat actually has to be dealt with. And that's where the confidence comes in. The confidence to deal with the threat.

The perception of threat doesn't negate confidence.



joinmartin said:


> Given the link between violence and fear, how can what you say be so? Why would you need confidence and courage to strike someone? If you had those two things, why strike someone?


Is there a philosophical basis for violence always being born from fear? I can think of lots of cases where the motivation for violence wouldn't be fear. Theft/Robbery, Annoyance/Irritation, Amusement (regardless of morality. psychopaths exist), etc.

There are many reasons that could drive someone to inflict violence. Not just fear.

Confidence and bravery do not necessarily carry moral connotations. You can be confident of robbing someone and be brave enough to do it even when you know law enforcement might try to bring you to justice.



joinmartin said:


> Why become a servant of violence and aggression when you could walk away?


Violence doesn't always have to be a reaction. You can be violent without provocation.



joinmartin said:


> Striking someone is an act of cowardice. You gave in to the urge to use violence which means you lost control and were governed by an urge instead of making a proper decision about how to respond.


The first sentence is a canned phrase. Violence can be calculated, not born from an urge and inflicted while remaining in control.

I think you are thinking that the violence that is being discussed here is a reaction to some sort of provocation. That is not a necessary condition at all. You can be confident of inflicting violence without being explicitly provoked.



joinmartin said:


> How do you know that? Most girls do not get off on their man going around hitting people or even knowing that they could.


Some do. Many don't care. Almost none terminate a relationship over a guy beating someone up (unless there is the fear of being caught up in a backlash).



joinmartin said:


> A guy I know bangs on an on about how he beat up this guy or would beat up that guy. Are the girls impressed? No, they are not. They joke about it and tease the guy about it.


That only strengthens my point. That women either don't care if the guy they are friends with/date beat someone up, or they find it funny and joke about it.



joinmartin said:


> If the thug is brave and confident, why is he a thug? Confidence is not aggression. A thug is not automatically brave or confident? If you're secure in yourself, why attack others?


Explained earlier. Confidence and bravery do not necessarily carry moral connotations. It is perfectly possible to be a brave and confident thug. See example given earlier.



joinmartin said:


> And plenty of women who took one look at the rape conviction and said "no way". Most women interested in Mike Tyson after he's been convicted of rape? Erm...not likely.


That dead rapper guy then, Two-Pack. Also convicted of sexual molestation. Women love dancing to his boasts about how he's "gonna cap some punk-*** cop" or something. You want to tell me he didn't have his pick of women when he was alive?

A rape conviction was not enough to kill the attraction!!!



joinmartin said:


> You can test this. Go up to a woman you find attractive and tell them you were convicted of rape. See how long she sticks around.


I'm not Mr. Confident Thug dude. So of course it isn't going to work.



joinmartin said:


> You're confusing strength and confidence and leading with aggression here.


No. I made it very clear that strength and confidence are exhibited by an aggressive personality. There's no 'confusing' the two. Physically aggressive people tend to be confident in their superior strength.



joinmartin said:


> So, basically, you think most women engage in some kind of blood lust sport where they just ache for people to get beat up around them? Erm...nope. Every pub and bar fight I've ever seen has involved the women trying to stop the whole thing from escalating. They were not sat about cheering them on.


How many times must I repeat this? Some might. *Most simply don't care that their SO is being violent.* They are OK with it. And you can find examples in that thread.



joinmartin said:


> Women's refuge includes hundreds of women who broke up with their partners not just because they hit them but because their partners were violent towards others too.


I'm willing to (confidently, hehe) bet that none of those women broke up with their partners because he was violent towards someone they didn't care about.



joinmartin said:


> No, women pick up on these things.


Yes, and go ahead with the dating anyway.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

leonardess said:


> what part of "how the man makes me feel" did you not get?


If you were serious:
It was a jibe at the stereotypical touchy-feely, feminine way of expressing things.

If you weren't serious and were being snide:
"How the man makes me feel" in the context of aspects of your life like spirituality, mental state, etc. and talk of vague "connections" wasn't clear.

But I get the message of the post I am quoting.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Women simply don't want guys like us. They want experience. 

We aren't experienced with women, therefore we aren't "bad enough."


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## arpeggiator (Jan 6, 2011)

Once a girl told me 'You are too nice' like it was something bad. It doesn't make sense...
I don't know, maybe it's a youth thing.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

arpeggiator said:


> Once a girl told me 'You are too nice' like it was something bad. It doesn't make sense...
> I don't know, maybe it's a youth thing.


They say the same thing at 40, 50, and 60. It's not a youth thing.

She was saying she wasn't attracted to you. It had nothing to do with being nice, or not nice.


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## arpeggiator (Jan 6, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> They say the same thing at 40, 50, and 60. It's not a youth thing.
> 
> She was saying she wasn't attracted to you. It had nothing to do with being nice, or not nice.


It could be. The strange thing is that I wasn't hitting on her, I just wanted to get along with her, like with anybody else. 
The dating world seems so twisted, and I don't feel like playing games. But I'm afraid is either that or being alone.


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## Catherine Cavatica (Feb 2, 2011)

stylicho said:


> Probably because you wouldn't know a "bad boy" if he came up and bit you on the ***. I always find it amusing when women enter this discussion as if they know what a "tough" guy is. I remember this hot chick who went to my high school. Well her "bad boy" boyfriend got in a fight and it looked like two imbeciles swinging at each other, no offense to imbeciles. But his opponent did fall down during the fray. After that she thought he was the baddest man since the lead singer of the Backstreet Boys came rolling through town . I'm not saying all women are like this. Some women do actually know how to fight because they train to and I would value their opinion much more than the average girl.


Excuse me but I do actually know how to fight. I have had a few years experience in boxing and kickboxing and I'm not a soft woman either. 
Don't assume all women are the same and you have no idea who I've been with or what I've been through. You are generalizing as so many seem to do on this forum. Just because you've known a couple of people who think a certain way you assume everyone else will be the same.


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## BKrakow (Jul 8, 2010)

^ I agree. I think people need to lay off the generalizations. seriously. most men I know enjoy playboy, but does that mean the only type of woman they're interested in is a perfect 10 with giant knockers? no. suggesting so makes about as much sense as someone saying "all women only want xyz."


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## stylicho (Nov 8, 2003)

Catherine Cavatica said:


> Excuse me but I do actually know how to fight. I have had a few years experience in boxing and kickboxing and *I'm not a soft woman either. *
> Don't assume all women are the same and you have no idea who I've been with or what I've been through. You are generalizing as so many seem to do on this forum. Just because you've known a couple of people who think a certain way you assume everyone else will be the same.


Couldn't tell by your picture.


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## caflme (Jun 7, 2009)

As long as he stands up for what he wants, thinks and feels... expects to be respected and is willing to show respect.... that's bad enough for me.... he doesn't need to be/can't be aggressive or arrogant or loud or rude... he just needs to have boundaries and not take **** from people and yet be willing to compromise/meet in the middle - if it was necessary for peace... he can't be completely inflexible and hardened.


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## BetaBoy90 (Jan 5, 2010)

I am a bad boy, and the answer is yes, got to stick with my kind.


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## stylicho (Nov 8, 2003)

BetaBoy90 said:


> I am a bad boy, and the answer is yes, got to stick with my kind.


Anybody related to a Beta fish better be bad *** :lol


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## pudz (May 15, 2011)

Its a combination of both.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...714/the-lonely-dateless-male-phenomenon-6557/


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