# Are Men Only as Faithful as their Options?



## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

So, my late father told me "all men cheat." Basically all the historical figures that I respected like Franklin Roosevelt, JFK and Martin Luther King had mistresses. Bill Clinton and now even Bill Cosby turns out to be the biggest cheater of them all.



> Now, imagine a fictitious world in which all men had the same unlimited options just described above. Suppose we all lived in a world where every night, we traveled home to our beautiful wives, with six women offering themselves to us on the way. Imagine what the infidelity rate would jump to. If I had to take a guess, based on pure instinct, I would say this number would jump to over ninety nine percent. Going back to the quote, "men are only as faithful as their options," the more these options grow, the more likely a man will cheat.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joshua-pompey/infidelity_b_2415595.html

Do you agree that the vast majority of men are only as faithful as their options?


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## markwalters2 (Mar 18, 2013)

I know of friends who're very faithful to their spouses. And there are those who're not.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

All normal guys have plenty of "options" already.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

AngelClare said:


> Do you agree that the vast majority of men are only as faithful as their options?


No, I don't have enough information to make such a sweeping judgement. I don't know the vast majority of men and I especially don't know their private lives.


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## DNightingale (Oct 12, 2014)

I think it's a simple issue of self awareness and ethics. 

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a man wishing to sleep around or jump from one relationship to another as long as all of that is done with full honesty. The social obsession with monogamy seriously contradicts some of the most basic reproductive instincts of males, which coupled with humanity's general lacking in the ethics field, leads to a lot of infidelity. 

I think the issue here is that a lot of men are simply too greedy; they know that for a lot of women sex is more attractive with intertwined with emotional bonds and apparent loyalty and commitment, so they just fake those things to get into their pants, jumping then to the next sexual opportunity when that shows up. 

If they were honest about their desires and intentions the chances are they would get less success sex wise, so they rather take the irrational path of lying and cheating just to get more of it.

I personally don't see why anyone that has good ethics should ever cheat, male or female. If you just want to sleep around then do so, don't get yourself in serious relationships, if you're in a committed relationship but you're not sexually satisfied then decide what's more important and if it's sexual satisfaction then just end it cleanly and go find that somewhere else. Sadly, most people are just too irrational to follow such a simple and logical path, they end up wanting to have it all and turning to infidelity.


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## MildSA (Sep 29, 2014)

That maybe true for folks who love being the center of attention aka people who seek power positions, entertainers, socialites etc.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

When I get obsessed with a girl on a physical and more importantly an emotional level, it doesn't matter how many options I have I am going home with that girl every night.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I'd assume a lot of guys would break up with a woman first if they found a better option. Probably depends on their testosterone levels and various other factors.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I'd assume a lot of guys would break up with a woman first if they found a better option.


I think thats largely the same with women. If you find a guy who treats you better and is more physically attracted than the man you are currently with and had the opportunity to date him. I bet you would take it.


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## mezzoforte (May 16, 2010)

It seems like a lot of people tend to cheat if they have other options. If they feel lucky to be with the person they're with and no one else is interested in them, they're not likely to cheat because they couldn't get anyone else anyway. But if someone attractive is interested in someone who's in a relationship, the person in the relationship will usually flirt/kiss/have sex with that person. This is how relationships among young people tend to work, sadly. Not sure about people who are older or married.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Ignopius said:


> I think thats largely the same with women. If you find a guy who treats you better and is more physically attracted than the man you are currently with and had the opportunity to date him. I bet you would take it.


Not me, but I can't speak for other women. If I wanted to date someone else it would mean I didn't want to keep seeing the person I was seeing because I wasn't attracted to them anymore. I think a lot of guys can potentially be attracted to multiple people simultaneously. I can only form one obsessive fixation at a time. I think my head might explode otherwise...


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## extremly (Oct 25, 2012)

My uncle, my father's father and my mother's father all seemed to abide/have lived by this theory.

I think there is a certain truth men with options have that more inept men can't comprehend. That is; in the bigger scheme of things, a desirable man will always have less to lose from terminating/causing damage in a relationship than a woman, that by all accounts has a very short frame of time to find someone and raise a family.

Having said that if you are a desirable guy with a very strong belief system you may voluntarily *choose* to be faithful. But this is a choice and not a ultimatum, it can be broken at will.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Not me, but I can't speak for other women. If I wanted to date someone else it would mean I didn't want to keep seeing the person I was seeing because I wasn't attracted to them anymore. I think a lot of guys can potentially be attracted to multiple people simultaneously. I can only form one obsessive fixation at a time. I think my head might explode otherwise...


I'm just generalizing here. I much am the same way as you.


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## tea111red (Nov 8, 2005)

It's harder for anyone, men or women, to stay faithful when they have poor impulse control and trouble saying "no."


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## RelinquishedHell (Apr 10, 2012)

I have options and I have never cheated and never will.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

tea111red said:


> It's harder for anyone, men or women, to stay faithful when they have poor impulse control and trouble saying "no."


Oooh. I never thought of it that way before. That's a really interesting take.


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## tea111red (Nov 8, 2005)

lisbeth said:


> Oooh. I never thought of it that way before. That's a really interesting take.


haha, is that sarcasm?


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

tea111red said:


> haha, is that sarcasm?


omg, no! Not at all. It really surprised me. People who are unfaithful are usually just passed off as callous and selfish, but what you said seems really true. It might not be calculated, it might be something that gets out of hand due to weak will or whatever other reason. Like someone will be saying "it's just harmless flirting" until suddenly it isn't. It seems like willpower and discipline are as important as anything else.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

lisbeth said:


> It seems like willpower and discipline are as important as anything else.


Willpower and selfcontrol are basic aspects of character. If you think about it, it's impossible to be good without resisting temptations like the temptations to steal, lie or cheat. And that's why cheaters often cheat again even after promising to change. It's a part of their character.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Ignopius said:


> I'm just generalizing here. I much am the same way as you.


Yeah it's probably pretty common for both genders, the cheating part too.



DNightingale said:


> I think it's a simple issue of self awareness and ethics.
> 
> Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a man wishing to sleep around or jump from one relationship to another as long as all of that is done with full honesty. The social obsession with monogamy seriously contradicts some of the most basic reproductive instincts of males, which coupled with humanity's general lacking in the ethics field, leads to a lot of infidelity.
> 
> ...


Most men are dishonest about it because they know their girlfriend/wife/monogamous partner won't accept it. Most women don't want a partner that sleeps around with lots of other people. As a result a lot of men cheat. The genders really aren't very compatible at all for relationships when I think about it.

I did read a study that said that men were more bothered by sexual infidelity than emotional infidelity while women were the opposite though.. So maybe on the whole women are willing to put up with some stuff without feeling too ****ed up over it...

edit: Yeah I should have read your whole post before responding haha, opps. But yeah, the two genders are really quite incompatible imo on the whole. They want entirely different things.


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## tea111red (Nov 8, 2005)

lisbeth said:


> omg, no! Not at all. It really surprised me. People who are unfaithful are usually just passed off as callous and selfish, but what you said seems really true. It might not be calculated, it might be something that gets out of hand due to weak will or whatever other reason. Like someone will be saying "it's just harmless flirting" until suddenly it isn't. It seems like willpower and discipline are as important as anything else.


Oh, okay. Apologies.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

tea111red said:


> Oh, okay. Apologies.


No need! It's hard to read tone on the internet and my phrasing was probably off.


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## peacelizard (Apr 17, 2014)

I don't think, evolutionarily speaking, that men were meant to be monogamous and some of that is still in our DNA, but I think if you tell a girl you're faithful to her you should keep that promise, especially if it's marriage. 

A man is worth nothing if he can't keep his word


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## WineKitty (Nov 26, 2004)

Varies from guy to guy. I wouldn't put up with anyone I thought was being unfaithful to me. If someone (and this goes for male or female) can't keep it in their pants, why even be in a relationship? I have never understood that.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

lol check this out:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vicki-larson/why-men-need-to-cheat_b_1170015.html



> Monogamy is failing men.
> 
> Not only is it failing them, but it's a "socially compelled sexual incarceration" that can lead to a life of anger and contempt, or so says Eric Anderson, an American sociologist at England's University of Winchester and author of the provocative new book, The Monogamy Gap: Men, Love, and the Reality of Cheating (Oxford University Press, $49.99).
> 
> ...


Thoughts?

I think I'm about done with this planet in all honesty :haha


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

^The gay-pill can't come soon enough.

Honestly though, this why I think I won't let my bf watch porn. I think porn trains guys to be unfaithful, makes it seem like no big deal to just go ****ing around. I think it's like mentioned earlier, that there's an impulse control issue. Guys need to learn to be horny, and do nothing about it. What porn does is let them forget about controlling themselves, any moment that they feel like seeing naked women, it's right there.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Shameful said:


> ^The gay-pill can't come soon enough.


Honestly right now I'm inclined to say 'word' :lol

This is why I know god doesn't exist, no being has that kind of sick sense of humour.



Shameful said:


> Honestly though, this why I think I won't let my bf watch porn. I think porn trains guys to be unfaithful, makes it seem like no big deal to just go ****ing around. I think it's like mentioned earlier, that there's an impulse control issue. Guys need to learn to be horny, and do nothing about it. What porn does is let them forget about controlling themselves, any moment that they feel like seeing naked women, it's right there.


Hmm I dunno, should people be trying to control it if it's natural for them? I think people should do what's best for them. Men just need to be honest about the fact that they want to sleep around a lot, and acknowledge that due to the way women are, they're generally not going to like that and they can't have their cake and eat it too with most women. It's just the sad truth. They have to choose between sex with noone ever really caring about them or 'socially compelled sexual incarceration' I guess. :haha

I kind of feel sorry for most guys actually :/ they'll never get what they want, but then neither will most women. So it balances out.


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## Dre12 (Jul 25, 2014)

I think if a man is in a position where women throw themselves at him like a footballer or a rock star, then it is very hard for him to remain faithful. I think a lot of this is situational though, if the said man were to be going out a lot on the town and meeting women in boozey situations then it will be near impossible. Obviously if the man were dedicated to his family and living a quiet life the opportunities for unfaithfulness are going to be a lot more sparse. Other factors like age and level of sex drive would play a part too.


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## Silere (Oct 19, 2014)

Well I can't speak for all men, but I don't think that's true even in general. If I had all the options in the world I would still never cheat and I believe my younger brother to be that way inclined as well, pretty sure we are not the only men like that.


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## Silere (Oct 19, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> lol check this out:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vicki-larson/why-men-need-to-cheat_b_1170015.html
> 
> ...


78% is high, but undergraduates are young though right? Not mature enough yet?


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Hmm I dunno, should people be trying to control it if it's natural for them? I think people should do what's best for them. *Men just need to be honest about the fact that they want to sleep around a lot, and acknowledge that due to the way women are, they're generally not going to like that and they can't have their cake and eat it too with most women*. It's just the sad truth. They have to choose between sex with noone ever really caring about them or 'socially compelled sexual incarceration' I guess. :haha
> 
> I kind of feel sorry for most guys actually :/ they'll never get what they want, but then neither will most women. So it balances out.


Well, my view is that if a guy isn't going to be monogamous, then he wont be dating me. If no guys are naturally monogamous then either I'm single for life, or a guy has to learn to control his urges. If he doesn't like that deal, then he doesn't have to date me, I'd rather that then find out 3 years in that he's sleeping with half his coworkers.

But... as your link said, guys aren't being upfront about wanting to sleep with others, they're doing it in secret. So I would need to take my own measures to help him with controlling his urges.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Silere said:


> 78% is high, but undergraduates are young though right? Not mature enough yet?


I'm sure it's not conclusive, the guy behind the study sounds like a bit of an ******* who is clearly pushing an agenda. He's basically like '**** everyone who is pro monogamy your feelings are now invalid.'



Shameful said:


> Well, my view is that if a guy isn't going to be monogamous, then he wont be dating me. If no guys are naturally monogamous then either I'm single for life, or a guy has to learn to control his urges. If he doesn't like that deal, then he doesn't have to date me, I'd rather that then find out 3 years in that he's sleeping with half his coworkers.
> 
> But... as your link said, guys aren't being upfront about wanting to sleep with others, they're doing it in secret. So I would need to take my own measures to help him with controlling his urges.


mm, I wouldn't be able to be in a relationship with someone if I felt I had to help them control their 'urges' it's like... Trying to keep a wild animal as a pet or something. I don't want to feel like I'm inhibiting them in some way. I think people need to be upfront about this and accept the results they might not like. But people won't, and women cheat too for different reasons as well. So people will just keep getting hurt because of cowards I guess.


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## Dre12 (Jul 25, 2014)

Silere said:


> Well I can't speak for all men, but I don't think that's true even in general. If I had all the options in the world I would still never cheat and I believe my younger brother to be that way inclined as well, pretty sure we are not the only men like that.


I am sceptical. I think that everyone has the potential to cheat in the right situation, man or woman. It is not just a linear principle that you can toss out. Things change in life, relationships become strained and hard, other pressures can mount up and if you find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time then you can end up cheating. Serial cheating and affairs fall into a different category for me but on a one off I believe we can all be vulnerable at one time or another.


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## Silere (Oct 19, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I'm sure it's not conclusive, the guy behind the study sounds like a bit of an ******* who is clearly pushing an agenda. He's basically like '**** everyone who is pro monogamy your feelings are now invalid.'


lol true.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I'm sure it's not conclusive, the guy behind the study sounds like a bit of an ******* who is clearly pushing an agenda. He's basically like '**** everyone who is pro monogamy your feelings are now invalid.'
> 
> mm, I wouldn't be able to be in a relationship with someone if I felt I had to help them control their 'urges' it's like... Trying to keep a wild animal as a pet or something. I don't want to feel like I'm inhibiting them in some way. I think people need to be upfront about this and accept the results they might not like. But people won't, and women cheat too for different reasons as well. So people will just keep getting hurt because of cowards I guess.


It doesn't have to sound so negative. Guys want to be in relationships, they like the emotional intimacy too, they want someone to care about them - if they didn't, then they wouldn't. I'm sure most guys who end up cheating, went into the relationship honestly believing that they would be faithful to her. So it's not like restraining them from doing what they want, it's helping them to get what they really want and not throw it away for simple urges. I could think of similarly to helping a partner with a gambling or drug addiction, helping your partner who has a female addiction :lol Besides, dating is compromise, for everyone.


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## Silere (Oct 19, 2014)

Dre12 said:


> I am sceptical. I think that everyone has the potential to cheat in the right situation, man or woman. It is not just a linear principle that you can toss out. Things change in life, relationships become strained and hard, other pressures can mount up and if you find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time then you can end up cheating. Serial cheating and affairs fall into a different category for me but on a one off I believe we can all be vulnerable at one time or another.


A valid point, things change. But I can only speak for myself when I say that's one thing I wouldn't do.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> lol check this out:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vicki-larson/why-men-need-to-cheat_b_1170015.html
> 
> ...


Well, the men should be just as openminded about their girlfriends having other guys on the side too, then Otherwise it's just completely selfish behavior.

...

Really though, there are guys who get "tempted" all the time already(good looks or whatever), who choose not to cheat on their girlfriends, because they love them and/or think that cheating is a ****ty thing to do. You know, when you've found someone who blows everyone else out of the water, and it makes everyone else seem uninteresting? It's not only females who can feel that way about a partner.


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## McFly (Jul 15, 2014)

It's not that complicated. Women are attracted to men in power. And those guys that are more alpha are probably going to take advantage of the free sex offered to them.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

George McFly said:


> It's not that complicated. Women are attracted to men in power. And those guys that are more alpha are probably going to take advantage of the free sex offered to them.


I think it's more likely that they're sociopaths. The rate of sociopathy among people in positions of power is significantly higher than among the general population, and that comes with poor impulse control. Sex is easy to get for everyone, not just people in power, so the thing that matters more is why they're going for it.


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## inane (Oct 21, 2013)

It makes sense to me, as a woman. Thanks for affirming my decision to keep myself at an emotional distance from the guy I've started to see, and not sleep with him.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

I think it's worded incorrectly. People are only as faithful as their ability to resist temptation in comparison to how much temptation there actually is. Surround yourself with desirable people, slack on boundaries, and have just one night where you're both drunk and willing, and you're quite capable of slipping whether or not you're a dedicated cheater.

Worsened, of course, by a wretched and shallow culture.


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## peachypeach (Oct 9, 2014)

depends on his belief. The prophet didn't cheat. I would never cheat.

so who knows.

that's shouldn't stop someone from falling in love with the RIGHT person.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

DNightingale said:


> I think it's a simple issue of self awareness and ethics.
> 
> Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a man wishing to sleep around or jump from one relationship to another as long as all of that is done with full honesty. The social obsession with monogamy seriously contradicts some of the most basic reproductive instincts of males, which coupled with humanity's general lacking in the ethics field, leads to a lot of infidelity.
> 
> ...





probably offline said:


> Well, the men should be just as openminded about their girlsfriends having other guys on the side too, then Otherwise it's just completely selfish behavior.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's why people cheat. They want their cake and eat it too.

It's because cheating men want to have a faithful girlfriend/wife who only sleeps with them.....but they want to be able to screw various women on the side and maybe even have a second girlfriend.

There are probably quite a few women who would be okay with an open relationship but very few would be okay with a double standard.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

But if we go free-range as a society and abolish the oppressive monogamy norm, won't half the guys be complaining that all the girls have had too many sexual partners and they're insecure about their wee-wees because of it? I mean if the guys are sleeping around with girls and rotating their partners even more regularly, some girls' numbers are going to have to be going up to make that logically possible.

Dicks for everyone! :clap


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

People need to stop getting involved with others they are not completely into for the sake of not being alone. It's this "settling" which is always going to create issues down the line when they come across people who they better connect with. So often people get caught up in the honeymoon phase before realising a few months in that the person probably isn't right for them but they are too deep in and go along for the ride.


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## Grog (Sep 13, 2013)

It's all about timing . 

If we cant get a bit 
If she's being a moody ***** 
If there a whole lot of nagging going on 
And 
Something comes along 
Bam 
We're onto it hanhanha 

Seriously now I will sleep around as much as I can but when in a relationship that's it no cheating at all . And a lot of other guys are the same . Even if someone way hotter comes along its still a no as to be in a relationship I'd have to be in love otherwise is all about fun and I'm pretty open about that from the start .


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

I've never cheated on anyone, and have had options (pats self on back)


It is not as though there are not plenty of temptations out there, I just can't imagine hurting someone I love that much. Even if there were no way of my wife finding out, I would always have the guilt chipping away at me. 

My sense of empathy is ridiculously high. Hurting people, even when it is over something trivial, usually results in me hurting.

I know people cheat on others and they have their reasons, and I don't want to come off as some saint looking down upon all of the peasants. There is a reason I don't cheat, and it is not because I am better than them. It simply is because it hurts me to hurt other people.


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## McFly (Jul 15, 2014)

Shameful said:


> I think it's more likely that they're sociopaths. The rate of sociopathy among people in positions of power is significantly higher than among the general population, and that comes with poor impulse control. Sex is easy to get for everyone, not just people in power, so the thing that matters more is why they're going for it.


Sure a lack of empathy is something important for reaching power. But I wouldn't consider JFK or Clinton sociopaths. If women are lusting after a guy and he has free P in V offered to him for years, that's a hard thing for a guy to pass on. Men are weak, it doesn't always mean they're out to cheat.


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## Grog (Sep 13, 2013)

^ the key word there is love . 
Something i don't think many people get to experience in its true form .


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

AngelClare said:


> Martin Luther King had mistresses.


I wish MLK hadn't been assassinated. He died a martyr. Had he lived to old age his plagiarism & womanizing would have come forward and he most likely wouldn't been seen as a virtual saint. Instead he'd be seen as just another guy who couldn't keep his dick in his pants.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

AngelClare said:


> So, my late father told me "all men cheat."
> 
> Do you agree that the vast majority of men are only as faithful as their options?


 Probably depends a lot on what you consider to be cheating. I'm sure some women would consider it to be close enough to cheating if their man even looks at another women and finds her attractive.

If that's what you mean, I'd have to say that probably all men do this. But I'd bet all women do it too.

OTOH, I do NOT believe every man will actually, physically cheat simply because he has the option. There is such a thing as loyalty and some people do feel obligated to at least be honest. If I was in a serious relationship, for example, and I even felt the temptation to "cheat" I would probably just tell her and see what happens. I personally believe the least you can do is be honest.


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## Dre12 (Jul 25, 2014)

UltraShy said:


> I wish MLK hadn't been assassinated. He died a martyr. Had he lived to old age his plagiarism & womanizing would have come forward and he most likely wouldn't been seen as a virtual saint. Instead he'd be seen as just another guy who couldn't keep his dick in his pants.


The black John F Kennedy?


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## Soilwork (May 14, 2012)

It's true that the vast majority of men will cheat if they have the chance to. In the battle of morality and base desires, the latter wins (almost) every time.


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

I think a man's opinion on the above scenario speaks more about his own personal morality regarding cheating than it does about men generally.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

I really don't believe there's any gendered element to cheating at all, aside from maybe the specific conditions that trigger it. If men cheated more often in the past, it was only because they had more opportunity. I suspect that with equal opportunity will come equal rates of cheating and I believe there's already evidence to support this, though I can't be bothered to look.

I think if there's any difference between the way cheating is viewed between the sexes, it's that when men cheat it's rationalized as: "Men just can't control their urges" and when women cheat it's rationalized as: "She just wasn't happy in the relationship". Why don't we ever say that women just can't control their urges? Or that a man just wan't happy in the relationship? Why is it always framed one way when men do it and another way when women do it?

I think that each person cheats for their own reasons and that uncharitably sorting them into gender stereotypes just perpetuates distorted views of what real men and women are like.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Depends on his age, personality, past behavior, etc...


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## Neo1234 (Mar 6, 2012)

I am faithful and loyal to one person at a time


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

You mean "stay together until something better comes along"?

I would hope there is a bit higher expectation than this.


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## Perception (Nov 25, 2013)

Hah. I wonder the same thing about women all the time. It's human nature to get the best deal you can. So in a way I'd say yeah that's true for men and women, but don't just single men out on this. I'm so tired of these biases that paint men as these evil creatures as women as these angels because that's far from the truth.

Most people are insecure as **** and follow the crowd; even though they may not have social anxiety it comes out in one way or another. A real man knows what's important to him, and if you value having a certain type of connection with your woman then you won't jump at every opportunity to get your dick wet with some skank.


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## PhilipJ (Nov 25, 2014)

yes, but "best option" is the key phrase.

if your best option is to leave a girl that you feel doesn't appreciate who you are, or that you simply don't feel like you can move forward with, then yes, that's the best option. 

if your best option is to bang anything that moves regardless of having a girlfriend, then you shouldn't be in a relationship. but if it's to stay with a woman regardless of the possibility that you can "do better" in society's eyes, then you're going to do that.

we're not implicitly cheaters. some are, but most aren't if things are right. it's your task as a woman to find the ones who will take the better option of finding happiness and stability with you, and to avoid the bad apples.


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## PhilipJ (Nov 25, 2014)

Perception said:


> Hah. I wonder the same thing about women all the time. It's human nature to get the best deal you can. So in a way I'd say yeah that's true for men and women, but don't just single men out on this. I'm so tired of these biases that paint men as these evil creatures as women as these angels because that's far from the truth.
> 
> Most people are insecure as **** and follow the crowd; even though they may not have social anxiety it comes out in one way or another. A real man knows what's important to him, and if you value having a certain type of connection with your woman then you won't jump at every opportunity to get your dick wet with some skank.


women definitely do it too, it's just that the game is different.

with women, it's often the power thing. ever seen an average guy with a stunning girlfriend? that's because he's exhibiting the traits which she finds most attractive. power, confidence, being at ease with himself. looks play a part but they aren't (generally) THE deciding factor for most women, right? in this, men across the board have an advantage because even if they are born ugly, they can still attract 8/10s, it's just a matter of working out how to do so.

evolution threw us a bone on that one, that's for sure. these things can be harder for women if they aren't blessed with beauty...but that's why the entire makeup industry exists in the first place. i've gone to bed with 8s and woken up with 4s, and i admired those girls for learning the rules of the game so well.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

PhilipJ said:


> women definitely do it too, it's just that the game is different.
> 
> with women, it's often the power thing. ever seen an average guy with a stunning girlfriend? that's because he's exhibiting the traits which she finds most attractive. power, confidence, being at ease with himself. looks play a part but they aren't (generally) THE deciding factor for most women, right? in this, men across the board have an advantage because even if they are born ugly, they can still attract 8/10s, it's just a matter of working out how to do so.
> 
> evolution threw us a bone on that one, that's for sure. *these things can be harder for women if they aren't blessed with beauty...*but that's why the entire makeup industry exists in the first place. i've gone to bed with 8s and woken up with 4s, and i admired those girls for learning the rules of the game so well.


Basically impossible. Men aren't swayed by anything really. Sex =/= a relationship either. Most women can get sex easily, yeah (if they're not too fussy about with who.) You can't become really successful and get a guy, like a guy could get a woman by doing that. Wearing makeup won't trick a guy longterm and isn't usually enough on its own unless the guy is drunk or something.

If you can get away with plastic surgery without it being obvious, it is probably your best bet at self improvement as a woman. I wouldn't recommend it though personally. Regardless of its effectiveness.


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## PhilipJ (Nov 25, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Basically impossible. Men aren't swayed by anything really. Sex =/= a relationship either. Most women can get sex easily, yeah (if they're not too fussy about with who.) You can't become really successful and get a guy. Like a guy could get a woman by doing that.


i disagree.

yes men are far more visual, but this can be used against us. a distinctly average girl who knows how to dress well for her body shape, knows how to extenuate her best facial features through makeup, and knows how to be FUNNY, can easily be a better catch.

i can't stress this enough. funny, charming, intelligent, powerful, these don't have to be men's words. we are weak to these traits too.


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## Perception (Nov 25, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Basically impossible. Men aren't swayed by anything really. Sex =/= a relationship either. Most women can get sex easily, yeah (if they're not too fussy about with who.) You can't become really successful and get a guy, like a guy could get a woman by doing that. Wearing makeup won't trick a guy longterm and isn't usually enough on its own unless the guy is drunk or something.
> 
> If you can get away with plastic surgery without it being obvious, it is probably your best bet at self improvement as a woman. I wouldn't recommend it though personally. Regardless of its effectiveness.


I think you guys are right in most of the things your saying. But at the same time I feel like if you look after yourself, and have your energy right then looks aren't so big of a factor.

If women devoted all the time and energy that they do to "looking" pretty and "having all my girlfriends so I feel good about myself", and focused instead on truly becoming healthy and working on being a good person, cultivating respect, and what kind of person they want to be. I think they'd truly be hot because I see through all that bull**** in a heartbeat.


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## Aribeth (Jan 14, 2012)

ALL men? No.
Most men? Yes.
Is it a bad thing? No. Grow up. If everything you know about men doesn't tell you that this is normal and natural male behavior, I don't know what will.


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## Perception (Nov 25, 2013)

PhilipJ said:


> i can't stress this enough. funny, charming, intelligent, powerful, these don't have to be men's words. we are weak to these traits too.


Agreed! (But I'd replace powerful with strong personally.)


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## crimeclub (Nov 7, 2013)

PhilipJ said:


> i disagree.
> 
> yes men are far more visual, but this can be used against us. a distinctly average girl who knows how to dress well for her body shape, knows how to extenuate her best facial features through makeup, and knows how to be FUNNY, can easily be a better catch.
> 
> i can't stress this enough. funny, charming, intelligent, powerful, these don't have to be men's words. we are weak to these traits too.


There are all kinds of exceptions among different guys, but in a general sense guys tend to realize the level of looks they're ok with and then set it in stone (Make-up and clothes won't factor in for very long). The humor, charm, intelligence, etc are good for competing with other girls that are around the same level of looks, but rarely for boosting her to another plain of competition. Obviously not how every guy operates, but generally this is the case.


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## Mr Bacon (Mar 10, 2012)

Everyone is as faithful as their options. We can't really project ourselves in this abstract scenario where our options are unlimited.

But lets face it, if you were in a relationship with some OK-ish girl you were attracted to, and then all of a sudden you have access to your dream girl, who just ticks all your boxes... I'm betting you'll be either delving into adultery or dumping your current girl for the upgrade.


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## PhilipJ (Nov 25, 2014)

crimeclub said:


> There are all kinds of exceptions among different guys, but in a general sense guys tend to realize the level of looks they're ok with and then set it in stone (Make-up and clothes won't factor in for very long). The humor, charm, intelligence, etc are typically good for competing with other girls that are around the same level of looks, but rarely for boosting her to another plain of competition. Obviously not how every guy operates, but generally this is the case.


i'm not sure about that. i want to agree, because it makes sense to the general stereotype of male behaviour that we see on television ever day, but i get the impression that in reality (especially concerning long-term relationships) men operate on their own personal frequency.

of course the hotter she is the faster you want to sleep with her, but that's not even taking into account the vast amount of other factors involved.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

PhilipJ said:


> i disagree.
> 
> yes men are far more visual, but this can be used against us. a distinctly average girl who knows how to dress well for her body shape, knows how to extenuate her best facial features through makeup, and knows how to be FUNNY, can easily be a better catch.
> 
> i can't stress this enough. funny, charming, intelligent, powerful, these don't have to be men's words. we are weak to these traits too.


If a guy finds one woman average looking and the other really attractive, he'll go for the more attractive one assuming they're dressed equally well/equally hygienic etc. Sure some people just don't bother at all, but that's not the norm and since most 'attractive' women put just as much effort into their appearance as most 'average' women, this is a moot point.

As for your last paragraph sure... Whatever you say. The reality is men aren't particularly fussed with women being intelligent (as in it's not a noted turn on, and some men even find it an intimidating trait,) same for powerful, same for funny, same for charming. These are all traits _women _ find attractive.

Men seem to like women who are relatively friendly, don't put them down a lot (ie aren't mean to them) and are happy. Other than that you have to be what they deem good looking (and there's a lot more consensus among what men find physically attractive than what women find physically attractive.)

So... It sucks to be a guy with SA. But it certainly balances out perfectly at the other end of the scale for a woman who is widely seen as unattractive to men. She could be the most intelligent, successful, funny woman on the planet, but if guys don't find her physically attractive she'll have no chance.

Now I have no idea if lesbian/bisexual/women interested in other women tend to find those traits you mentioned attractive in other women... Maybe women who are dating other women would have an advantage there.


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## PhilipJ (Nov 25, 2014)

god damn it, you're right to an extent. i put my logical brain on hold for a second and went subconscious...i will favour the more attractive girl, regardless of personality, for sex. 

but then that's just sex, this is my point. when it comes to relationships, who's he going to want to spend his time with, a stunning bore or a 6/10 who's a lot of fun and presents herself well? this is where the funny and intelligent come into the equation.


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## darkhoboelf (Mar 3, 2013)

There are some men who hold themselves to moral standards and for some their moral code might say that cheating is wrong for such and such a reason.My personal thoughts on "cheating" is that women are selfish(of coarse this is true for all people,its the way the human mind works)and therefore they want to have their partner all to themselves.They don't like to share.So they say its wrong to have other partners and therefore label it cheating.However men are also selfish and want as many partners as they can possibly get and so they say its natural to have multiple partners.(not to their selfish partner of coarse).

As for me,when I start dating,it is my intention to have several partners.With two of them I might even set up a situation were they catch me with someone else,for the sole purpose of hurting them emotionally.Not that she did anything to deserve it,I just think it'd be interesting to see her reaction when her morals are put to the test.Will she still be "kind"as her morals dictate,when shes been wronged?Probably not,and that's the interesting part of it.

In other words,morals are stupid,just do as you please.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

PhilipJ said:


> god damn it, you're right to an extent. i put my logical brain on hold for a second and went subconscious...i will favour the more attractive girl, regardless of personality, for sex.
> 
> but then that's just sex, this is my point. when it comes to relationships, who's he going to want to spend his time with, a stunning bore or a 6/10 who's a lot of fun and presents herself well? this is where the funny and intelligent come into the equation.


We'll have to agree to disagree, I don't think men's personality standards become too much higher even for relationships. That's just where the 'can't be a complete *****' 'can't be as insane as... (well as insane as I am actually :lol)' that I mentioned come into play.

I don't think men are genuinely turned on by intelligence. I'm sure they want someone who's around their level so they can have conversations about things, but intelligence is not a turn on in itself. They just want someone who they find physically attractive who's nice to them who they can sort of relate to.

Men have been proven in studies to kind of not know what to do with a funny woman. As a whole they much prefer for women to laugh at _their _ jokes.

There are no tricks women have up their sleeves over men that aren't related to physical appearance.

and a 6/10 huh.. So in other words you still have to be above average? Unless you're using a different scale to that /10 certain people love to use.

and yeah there are those 2 guys out there somewhere that are turned on by those things, just like there are women who care about nothing but appearance out there. If you dig realllly deep.


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## crimeclub (Nov 7, 2013)

PhilipJ said:


> god damn it, you're right to an extent. i put my logical brain on hold for a second and went subconscious...i will favour the more attractive girl, regardless of personality, for sex.
> 
> but then that's just sex, this is my point. when it comes to relationships, who's he going to want to spend his time with, a stunning bore or a 6/10 who's a lot of fun and presents herself well? this is where the funny and intelligent come into the equation.


Under that context I'll take the 6/10 who isn't a bore, but under the context of a real-world situation I'll have more than 2 options and I'll take the girl who I find sufficiently attractive and sufficiently interesting. That's just how the world works. It's not superficial, Its not choosing the hot girl in your scenerio, Its choosing the girl that's the most compatible in every way including looks.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

PhilipJ said:


> i disagree.
> 
> yes men are far more visual, but this can be used against us. a distinctly average girl who knows how to dress well for her body shape, knows how to extenuate her best facial features through makeup, and knows how to be FUNNY, can easily be a better catch.
> 
> i can't stress this enough. funny, charming, intelligent,* powerful, *these don't have to be men's words. we are weak to these traits too.





Persephone The Dread said:


> The reality is men aren't particularly fussed with women being intelligent (as in it's not a noted turn on, and some men even find it an intimidating trait,) same for *powerful*, same for funny, same for charming. *These are all traits women  find attractive.*


I guess this is pretty off topic, but how many women do you think are actually attracted to 'power'?


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## PhilipJ (Nov 25, 2014)

well, perhaps it is time to tweak my outlook slightly.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Shameful said:


> I guess this is pretty off topic, but how many women do you think are actually attracted to 'power'?


Enough that it's worth mentioning, not as many as for intelligence and humour. People in power tend to have all the other desirable traits - charming, intelligent, self motivated etc, so it's hard to say.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Enough that it's worth mentioning, not as many as for intelligence and humour.


Do you think a majority? Or just a noticeable minority?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Shameful said:


> Do you think a majority? Or just a noticeable minority?


No idea really, as I said it's hard to say since people in power usually have lots of other traits women tend to find attractive.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Personally I like to feel challenged by a woman intellectually and I find myself drawn to those who make me think when it comes to topics of conversation and their opinions. I believe that intellectual stimulation in a relationship is important for longevity, at least for me because otherwise things can become stale and boring very quickly.


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## PhilipJFry (Jan 24, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> If a guy finds one woman average looking and the other really attractive, he'll go for the more attractive one assuming they're dressed equally well/equally hygienic etc. Sure some people just don't bother at all, but that's not the norm and since most 'attractive' women put just as much effort into their appearance as most 'average' women, this is a moot point.
> 
> As for your last paragraph sure... Whatever you say. The reality is men aren't particularly fussed with women being intelligent (as in it's not a noted turn on, and some men even find it an intimidating trait,) same for powerful, same for funny, same for charming. These are all traits _women _ find attractive.
> 
> ...


I couldn't disagree more with this. Intelligence and a sense of humor are very attractive qualities, in my opinion.

Physical attractiveness plays little into when I develop feelings for a girl. I find the majority of women physically attractive. Some more than others but unless they have other interesting qualities, I certainly wouldn't have any interest. Of course, I'm just one person though. Everyone has their own preferences.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Is this thread sexist? Misandrist?


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Agree 100% with Persephone.



Mr Bacon said:


> But lets face it, if you were in a relationship with some OK-ish girl you were attracted to, and then all of a sudden you have access to your dream girl, who just ticks all your boxes... I'm betting you'll be either delving into adultery or dumping your current girl for the upgrade.


This is why it sucks to be a girl less than what guys deem an "8" or "9"...you don't want to admit to yourself that you're most likely a stepping stone, disposable, and worthless, but chances are it's the truth no matter what. Looks are everything. Absolutely everything.



PhilipJFry said:


> I couldn't disagree more with this. Intelligence and a sense of humor are very attractive qualities, in my opinion.
> 
> Physical attractiveness plays little into when I develop feelings for a girl. I find the majority of women physically attractive. Some more than others but unless they have other interesting qualities, I certainly wouldn't have any interest. Of course, I'm just one person though. Everyone has their own preferences.


Maybe to you, but you're probably one out of a million or a billion? I would say that most men find 5-10% of women physically attractive.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

This thread is doing so much to put me off dating. If half the things posted in here are accurate then I'd rather have a cat then a guy.


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## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

I don't understand the question.


I'm just going to put "X" and hand in my paper.


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## Dre12 (Jul 25, 2014)

crimeclub said:


> There are all kinds of exceptions among different guys, but in a general sense guys tend to realize the level of looks they're ok with and then set it in stone (Make-up and clothes won't factor in for very long). The humor, charm, intelligence, etc are good for competing with other girls that are around the same level of looks, but rarely for boosting her to another plain of competition. Obviously not how every guy operates, but generally this is the case.


At this point I am just looking for someone who will call an ambulance when I have a heart attack!



Shameful said:


> This thread is doing so much to put me off dating. If half the things posted in here are accurate then I'd rather have a cat then a guy.


There will be plenty of guys who will be hamstrung into faithfulness by societal pressures and emotional factors, you just need to find one of them. The same applies to women too. Are humans inherently monogamous full stop?


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## McFly (Jul 15, 2014)

Shameful said:


> This thread is doing so much to put me off dating. If half the things posted in here are accurate then I'd rather have a cat then a guy.


Shameful, the chances of you getting cheated on are slim to none. Most guys don't get the offer of free sex from random women so our natural sexual drive of spreading our genes around doesn't get used and that ends up going to the members of Mötley Crüe or democrat politicians. Guys want romance and long term relationships so you shouldn't be put off by the few cheating men that are glorified by the media.


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## jeanny (Apr 17, 2014)

Soilwork said:


> It's true that the vast majority of men will cheat if they have the chance to. In the battle of morality and base desires, the latter wins (almost) every time.


Of course they will. Monogamy and morality are just social constructs.


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## Mr Bacon (Mar 10, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> This is why it sucks to be a girl less than what guys deem an "8" or "9"...you don't want to admit to yourself that you're most likely a stepping stone, disposable, and worthless, but chances are it's the truth no matter what. Looks are everything. Absolutely everything.


In a world where Mrs Perfect is easily accessible to everyone, we'd all go for her. But IRL options are very limited, obtaining a date is a struggle, and Mrs Perfect is already in a relationships with Mr Perfect.

Reverse the genders and it's the same. Average Janitor Joe is disposable and replaced as soon as Jane gets along with Charismatic Banker Bob. Yet Bob already has a lot of options, and jumping ships is risky for Jane.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

There's so much that I disagree with in this thread :yes

Let's start with the scoring system x/10. At best this is a measure of how closely someone matches up to the conventional standard of beauty/attractiveness. I personally am not into what most people consider to be conventionally attractive - so this it's 100% useless to me. I also wonder if all the guys in here are perfectly in sync with each other when it comes to what they find attractive as well - when one dude says he finds someone a 6/10, isn't he saying that relative to his own standards? I think we're projecting a little with what the media has stereotyped men to be like.

I've always found certain personality traits attractive. There have even been occasions where I've said to myself 'hey that person is very pretty, but I'm not attracted to her'. I definitely do not agree with the idea that for women, the only thing that matters is looks.

So don't threat ladies of SAS, we are not all shallow pigs. :boogie :b


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> This is why it sucks to be a girl less than what guys deem an "8" or "9"...you don't want to admit to yourself that you're most likely a stepping stone, disposable, and worthless, but chances are it's the truth no matter what. Looks are everything. Absolutely everything.


Mhmmmm yep. I don't think looks are everything because there are a lot of factors... it's only one of fifty ways you feel like you have to measure up. But this is really how I feel too, 100%. A stepping stone or a placeholder. It doesn't make me want to try and get to know anyone.



Shameful said:


> This thread is doing so much to put me off dating. If half the things posted in here are accurate then I'd rather have a cat then a guy.


Yeah. Not because of a fear of being cheated on tho, because I really believe most men have much more moral character than that. I don't believe for a minute that most people are unfaithful in relationships. More like, y'know, I just don't measure up even to get into one. There are girls who are similar to me who are better than me and there are too many things about me which make me inconvenient. I used to try regardless but the effort-to-payoff ratio is just not worth it.










And even if I _was_ somebody's best option, I don't want to be seen that way anyway... I want somebody to like me because they like me, not because they think I'm a better bet compared to somebody else. Seeing men monkeybranch from one girl to another is depressing as all hell. Makes me feel like we're basically interchangeable except one or other having more bells and whistles. I just want a human connection, mang.


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## DNightingale (Oct 12, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> lol check this out:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vicki-larson/why-men-need-to-cheat_b_1170015.html
> 
> ...


I don't think the core message of it is really wrong.

Cheating is evidently wrong from any ethical point of view and doing so, regardless of the context, shows a lack of character, maturity and a weak sense of ethics. But it's also at least partially the result of many societies seeing monogamy as the only real, acceptable choice.

A lot of men, and women too for that matter, are quite weak minded so they fall for the societal pressure that tells them that the only way to approach sex and/or relationships is by way of monogamous, committed relationships. When in reality that's not what they want nor what they're capable of adhering to, therefore they end up cheating. This is completely absurd behavior that benefits none of those involved.

Now it would be nice to live in a world where most or all humans were rational, self aware beings but we don't. So the closest thing there is to a solution is to try and push for changes in social values that acknowledge that the long standing concept of monogamy/fidelity/marriage is not for everyone, perhaps not even suitable for most. That way maybe most people could find a way to be more honest with themselves and others about what they really want instead of cheating.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

DNightingale said:


> I don't think the core message of it is really wrong.
> 
> Cheating is evidently wrong from any ethical point of view and doing so, regardless of the context, shows a lack of character, maturity and a weak sense of ethics. But it's also at least partially the result of many societies seeing monogamy as the only real, acceptable choice.
> 
> ...


OK, I don't care anymore. I'm waiting for the aliens to come fetch me so I can return to my true home. Humans are too weird.


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## Stilla (May 13, 2009)

I too sometimes wonder if monogamy is something that is in human nature or something we have constructed and therefore is more of a choice.

Just look at bonobo's, they have sex and "cheat" all the time, yet they have one of the most peaceful societies evarr. 
Maybe monogamous relationships just aren't realistic.

:stu


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

Women cheat too.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

Stilla said:


> I too sometimes wonder if monogamy is something that is in human nature or something we have constructed and therefore is more of a choice.
> 
> Just look at bonobo's, they have sex and "cheat" all the time, yet they have one of the most peaceful societies evarr.
> Maybe monogamous relationships just aren't realistic.
> ...


It is something we've constructed... but so is pretty much everything in society. Having a job is something we've constructed, living in one home rather than being nomadic is something we've constructed, farming rather than hunting/foraging is something we've constructed. Very, very little about our lives nowadays - or even our lives 1000 years ago - is in human nature. I don't think it's really meaningful to compare ourselves to other species or even to prehistoric humans because we, our societies, and our lives are just too different.

There's no denying that monogamy doesn't suit everyone, which (imo) is the reason why polyamory and open relationships are beginning to become more known. If the people who monogamy doesn't suit can acceptably/openly/ethically be non-monogamous, that can only be a good thing. But monogamy _does_ suit a lot of people and is (frankly) beneficial to society as it runs. Not suiting 100% of people 100% of the time doesn't mean it's unrealistic.


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## eveningbat (Jan 21, 2013)

Sacrieur said:


> Women cheat too.


Yes, not all women, but many do. A few years ago I overheard a conversation of two men on a bus (not deliberately, but they were sitting by my side and talking). They were sailors. On of those was telling another one that he returned from his sailing and found his wife with another guy. That made him suffer because he remained faithful to her in spite of his job that kept him away from her for a long time. So that made me feel empathy towards the guy since he seemed to be good while his partner was unfaithful.
But in a lot of cases, I have noticed that men do not intend to keep or develop a stable relationship, they fly away on finding another girl. Not all of them, of course, but many.


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## Nonsensical (Mar 29, 2013)

It depends on the person not their gender.


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## Nonsensical (Mar 29, 2013)

eveningbat said:


> But in a lot of cases, I have noticed that men do not intend to keep or develop a stable relationship, they fly away on finding another girl. Not all of them, of course, but many.


The same can be said about almost every woman I have dated in my life.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

lisbeth said:


> Seeing men monkeybranch from one girl to another is depressing as all hell. Makes me feel like we're basically interchangeable except one or other having more bells and whistles. I just want a human connection, mang.


I've been 'monkey branched' before. It wasn't too bad in my case because we weren't actually in a relationship but then he dumped his girlfriend (who was 1 up from me,) for an even more conventionally attractive woman. According to her it was quite out of the blue and I can believe it. It was really obvious that he broke up with her to date this other girl.

This is what happens when lonely guys just string people along until they find someone they're actually looking for... I'm sure women do this too when they have the option, I just have no anecdotal evidence of that to speak of at this point.


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## Stilla (May 13, 2009)

@lisbeth I dunno, I guess my view on it is not so much it being in our nature to cheat, but more that it might not be a realistic idea for humans to stay together with just one person for a life time. I think a lot of (most) people are always in the pursuit of finding someone better, especially once the feelings wear off in a relationship which they eventually do in most cases. Hence why people are still being attracted to others even though they've already found a partner they're relatively happy with. So not acting on going behind someone's back when they get the opportunity comes down more to choice or I guess control of their impulses as someone mentioned earlier... but perhaps fighting those urges might be going against nature because we are simply not made to just be with one person.

Guess unnecessary to mention that I'm a pretty jaded person.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

Stilla said:


> @*lisbeth* I dunno, I guess my view on it is not so much it being in our nature to cheat, but more that it might not be a realistic idea for humans to stay together with just one person for a life time. I think a lot of (most) people are always in the pursuit of finding someone better, especially once the feelings wear off in a relationship which they eventually do in most cases. Hence why people are still being attracted to others even though they've already found a partner they're relatively happy with. So not acting on going behind someone's back when they get the opportunity comes down more to choice or I guess control of their impulses as someone mentioned earlier... but perhaps fighting those urges might be going against nature because we are simply not made to just be with one person.
> 
> Guess unnecessary to mention that I'm a pretty jaded person.


I think 99% of people aren't made to be with the same person eternally - people change, circumstances change, feelings wear off etc. But I'd say that's more in favour of serial monogamy (which is the current norm) than actual non-monogamy. I don't think it's so much about being with the same person forever as being with one person at a time. Even if it was the norm to have multiple partners, people would still drop partners when they got tired of them, so in that sense it doesn't really change anything.

Even aside from anything else, I don't think most people have the time or energy to be polygamous, tbh.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I've been 'monkey branched' before. It wasn't too bad in my case because we weren't actually in a relationship but then he dumped his girlfriend (who was 1 up from me,) for an even more conventionally attractive woman. According to her it was quite out of the blue and I can believe it. It was really obvious that he broke up with her to date this other girl.
> 
> This is what happens when lonely guys just string people along until they find someone they're actually looking for... I'm sure women do this too when they have the option, I just have no anecdotal evidence of that to speak of at this point.


I know a girl who's with someone who said to her pretty much verbatim "I was only sleeping with Jane in order to get closer to you, Joan". And then I remember when that guy had been sleeping with Jane, that was overlapping with him dating June. Charming. I wonder who's going to be Jean.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

lisbeth said:


> And even if I _was_ somebody's best option, I don't want to be seen that way anyway... I want somebody to like me because they like me, not because they think I'm a better bet compared to somebody else.


That's the part that bothers me. I want to someone to like _me_, I don't want someone to decide that I'm slightly better than their next best option. And especially what persephone is saying, I don't want my personality to be interchangeable as long as I appear happy. I'm so suspicious of guys who talk to me already, the idea that is natural behavior I can expect from all of them and not just douche behavior is bothering me.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

Shameful said:


> That's the part that bothers me. I want to someone to like _me_, I don't want someone to decide that I'm slightly better than their next best option. And especially what persephone is saying, I don't want my personality to be interchangeable as long as I appear happy. I'm so suspicious of guys who talk to me already, the idea that is natural behavior I can expect from all of them and not just douche behavior is bothering me.


If you're friends to begin with, and it turns to a relationship then you have a fairly decent chance of that being meaningful. If you meet someone at say a bar/night club kind of place, they probably would just see you as just another dating prospect.


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## UndreamingAwake (Apr 11, 2011)

*People* are only as faithful as their options. I've been cheated on by women i've been with. Twice. I never cheated myself in four relationships, nor felt the urge to. Hell, I don't even care to watch porn when i'm not single. Yet i'm a guy with an above-averave sex drive! Me no understand. Nice to see the women in this thread stooping to the same low level as all the angry male virgins on this forum... /sarcasm

The generalizations here seriously disgust me sometimes.


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

Nope....


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

Shameful said:


> That's the part that bothers me. I want to someone to like _me_, I don't want someone to decide that I'm slightly better than their next best option. And especially what persephone is saying, I don't want my personality to be interchangeable as long as I appear happy. I'm so suspicious of guys who talk to me already, the idea that is natural behavior I can expect from all of them and not just douche behavior is bothering me.


As surprising as it sounds, not everyone are looking for people who just put on a big smile for no reason, being a human being means that you have all the spectrum of emotions, and as i can only speak for myself, thats what i like.
Look for the person that suits you, and dont blame yourself if it didnt work out, because you are you and thats it.


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## Nonsensical (Mar 29, 2013)

Metalunatic said:


> *People* are only as faithful as their options. I've been cheated on by women i've been with. Twice. I never cheated myself in four relationships, nor felt the urge to. Hell, I don't even care to watch porn when i'm not single. Yet i'm a guy with an above-averave sex drive! Me no understand. Nice to see the women in this thread stooping to the same low level as all the angry male virgins on this forum... /sarcasm
> 
> The generalizations here seriously disgust me sometimes.


Agreed, this thread has turned into a female version of the circle jerking that goes on here at times. They should have hung up a sign saying no men allowed.


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

lisbeth said:


> I think 99% of people aren't made to be with the same person eternally - people change, circumstances change, feelings wear off etc. But I'd say that's more in favour of serial monogamy (which is the current norm) than actual non-monogamy. I don't think it's so much about being with the same person forever as being with one person at a time. Even if it was the norm to have multiple partners, people would still drop partners when they got tired of them, so in that sense it doesn't really change anything.
> 
> Even aside from anything else, I don't think most people have the time or energy to be polygamous, tbh.


You are right, but i dont see how it makes a difference, we only got ourselves,
Friendships and relationships end, but those good and bad memories are whats making the difference, thats what we got, and its better to cherish it imo.


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## Soilwork (May 14, 2012)

Men are hard-wired to spread their seed so it is inevitable that more men will cheat when presented with the opportunity compared with women who are programmed to find a mate that will protect and provide for her and her child. That's not to say that women don't cheat because, of course, lots of them do but clearly due to men having higher sex drives than women in general, they are going to want more sex with more partners than women are.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Mr Bacon said:


> In a world where Mrs Perfect is easily accessible to everyone, we'd all go for her. But IRL options are very limited, obtaining a date is a struggle, and Mrs Perfect is already in a relationships with Mr Perfect.
> 
> Reverse the genders and it's the same. Average Janitor Joe is disposable and replaced as soon as Jane gets along with Charismatic Banker Bob. Yet Bob already has a lot of options, and jumping ships is risky for Jane.


I don't think this is always the case. I'd much rather be with my boyfriend than some extroverted banker (those people usually reek of narcissism and general scumbag-ness, on top of my personality/lifestyle not being compatible with theirs). I do think it's definitely true for shallow people who'd rather date someone that serves as a status symbol instead of keep a relationship with someone they are extremely close with. But I have to say, I wonder if it is true that average or unattractive women are generally incapable of being loved. I wouldn't be surprised if it was.



Paper Samurai said:


> I also wonder if all the guys in here are perfectly in sync with each other when it comes to what they find attractive as well - when one dude says he finds someone a 6/10, isn't he saying that relative to his own standards? I think we're projecting a little with what the media has stereotyped men to be like.


The vast majority of guys I know are almost entirely in sync when it comes to this. They find all the same women attractive and unattractive to about the same degree. For some reason, it's much, much more subjective for women.


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

tbyrfan said:


> I don't think this is always the case. I'd much rather be with my boyfriend than some extroverted banker (those people usually reek of narcissism and general scumbag-ness, on top of my personality/lifestyle not being compatible with theirs). I do think it's definitely true for shallow people who'd rather date someone that serves as a status symbol instead of keep a relationship with someone they are extremely close with. But I have to say, I wonder if it is true that average or unattractive women are generally incapable of being loved. I wouldn't be surprised if it was.
> 
> The vast majority of guys I know are almost entirely in sync when it comes to this. They find all the same women attractive and unattractive to about the same degree. For some reason, it's much, much more subjective for women.


Wait a sec.... You got a boyfriend who you feel good with and you keep on mentioning how ugly you are? I mean, why does it bother you so much? sorry if its out of the place.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Umpalumpa said:


> Wait a sec.... You got a boyfriend who you feel good with and you keep on mentioning how ugly you are? I mean, why does it bother you so much? sorry if its out of the place.


10 years of being bullied over your looks and knowing you're one of the ugliest girls you've ever seen isn't exactly easy to get over. Relationships aren't going to fix every single one of your problems.


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

tbyrfan said:


> 10 years of being bullied over your looks and knowing you're one of the ugliest girls you've ever seen isn't exactly easy to get over. Relationships aren't going to fix every single one of your problems.


I wasnt talking about fixing it, but dont you feel more content with yourself since you are in a relationship? The way you describe yourself made me imagine you as a tinier version of sloth from the goonies, i know on myself that if i would have recieved more "i love you" from time to time....it probably would have helped made me a little happier? Who knows maybe im wrong.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Umpalumpa said:


> I wasnt talking about fixing it, but dont you feel more content with yourself since you are in a relationship?


In some ways yes, but I still look the same, so that part can't be improved.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> But I have to say, I wonder if it is true that average or unattractive women are generally incapable of being loved. I wouldn't be surprised if it was.


If that's true, then all women are incapable of being loved. Someone who only loves you because of your appearance doesn't love you.



tbyrfan said:


> The vast majority of guys I know are almost entirely in sync when it comes to this. They find all the same women attractive and unattractive to about the same degree. For some reason, it's much, much more subjective for women.


How many men do you know, tbyr? And what kinds of men?

Different men are attracted to different things. Different men like tall women, short women, older women, younger women, fat women, skinny women, curvy women, flat-chested women, innocent-looking women, heavily tattooed women, women with long hair, women with shaved heads, whatever. There's an entire website devoted to the beauty of women with large jaws. I've seen threads online where men have been discussing how much they love women with crooked teeth or loads of freckles or long noses or whatever, in the same way as I can't get enough of men with big ears. Different people have different tastes and different types. We're all individuals.

That's not to say that a conventional standard of beauty doesn't exist, because obviously it does... but it isn't universal. Even just going into the cutest girl thread on this site, of all places, you're going to see women who look very different from one another. Some 'types' may have more general appeal than others, but no type is universal. Men aren't all the same and don't all like the same things. You only have to look around you to see that isn't true.


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## jingybopa (Jan 26, 2011)

UltraShy said:


> I wish MLK hadn't been assassinated. He died a martyr. Had he lived to old age his plagiarism & womanizing would have come forward and he most likely wouldn't been seen as a virtual saint. Instead he'd be seen as just another guy who couldn't keep his dick in his pants.


 Come now Karl. At least be honest. You wish MLK hadn't been assassinated because his death was (despite your assertion elsewhere that the assassination JFK was entirely responsible) one of the things that led to The Gun Control Act of 1968.
As to his plagiarism and adultery, while I don't condone either, those two things have absolutely nothing to do with his public work. Had he still been alive when such things were made public, it would have made no difference.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

lisbeth said:


> If that's true, then all women are incapable of being loved. Someone who only loves you because of your appearance doesn't love you.


Most people wouldn't date someone they find unattractive - and people generally love others after dating them for a while. People love others for their personality, but looks are generally the deciding factor in whether someone dates someone else or not. So technically, people do love others partially because of their appearance.



lisbeth said:


> How many men do you know, tbyr? And what kinds of men?
> 
> Different men are attracted to different things. Different men like tall women, short women, older women, younger women, fat women, skinny women, curvy women, flat-chested women, innocent-looking women, heavily tattooed women, women with long hair, women with shaved heads, whatever. There's an entire website devoted to the beauty of women with large jaws. I've seen threads online where men have been discussing how much they love women with crooked teeth or loads of freckles or long noses or whatever, in the same way as I can't get enough of men with big ears. Different people have different tastes and different types. We're all individuals.
> 
> That's not to say that a conventional standard of beauty doesn't exist, because obviously it does... but it isn't universal. Even just going into the cutest girl thread on this site, of all places, you're going to see women who look very different from one another. Some 'types' may have more general appeal than others, but no type is universal. Men aren't all the same and don't all like the same things. You only have to look around you to see that isn't true.


I'm not talking about men over 30 because generally they don't mention looks as much, but almost every male i've ever been around is the complete opposite from what you describe - most seem to be attracted to nearly the same things. And in general, girls in the cutest girl thread tend to look similar, while there is much more variation and guys that aren't conventionally attractive in the cutest guy thread. There are always going to be guys whose tastes differ from the norm, but it's extremely uncommon.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

eveningbat said:


> Yes, not all women, but many do. A few years ago I overheard a conversation of two men on a bus (not deliberately, but they were sitting by my side and talking). They were sailors. On of those was telling another one that he returned from his sailing and found his wife with another guy. That made him suffer because he remained faithful to her in spite of his job that kept him away from her for a long time. So that made me feel empathy towards the guy since he seemed to be good while his partner was unfaithful.
> But in a lot of cases, I have noticed that men do not intend to keep or develop a stable relationship, they fly away on finding another girl. Not all of them, of course, but many.


I've been cheated on. I found out after we had broken up, but it's still disappointing. Because when you really put a lot of trust in someone like that and you think back to the times they were just lying straight to your face about things it's miserable.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

If we are looking at this from the evolutionary advantage perspective then:

1)It is beneficial for men to impregnate different women and have different children with different women, clearly this gives his genes a greater chance of survival. However, it also gives his genes a greater chance by being a father and making sure his offspring live long enough to pass on their genes. I would guess that the ideal scenario for a man is to 'parent' children but also impregnate other women as well. i.e. make sure your the kids you have with your chosen mate are raised well, and any children fathered externally to this are a bonus. (note this is the genes talking, not the individual man).

2)It is beneficial for women to select fathers with the strongest genes for survival (strong healthy males). It may also be beneficial to have children from different fathers (genetic diversity). It is beneficial for those raising their children to have as many resources as possible (be they the genetic fathers or not). (note this is the genes talking, not the individual woman).

Thus I would say that genetically it is going to be advantageous for both men and women to be unfaithful. This isn't to say anything about whether most men and women are going to be unfaithful, but genetic advantage can certain help to explain behaviour and preferences of behaviour.

The upshot, monogamy isn't optimal behaviour for passing on your genes, for either sex.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Yeah, I'm sorry for my posts in this thread. Even though I think there's _some _ truth to them they were overly extreme and clearly over generalising and I was behaving like a complete ***** here. I just kind of got caught up in the black hole so yeah. I'm sorry.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> I'm not talking about men over 30 because generally they don't mention looks as much, but almost every male i've ever been around is the complete opposite from what you describe - most seem to be attracted to nearly the same things. And in general, girls in the cutest girl thread tend to look similar, while there is much more variation and guys that aren't conventionally attractive in the cutest guy thread. There are always going to be guys whose tastes differ from the norm, but it's extremely uncommon.


I'm just gonna ask any men reading this post right now: do you have the same taste in women as all your friends, relatives, coworkers, neighbours...?


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

lisbeth said:


> I'm just gonna ask any men reading this post right now: do you have the same taste in women as all your friends, relatives, coworkers, neighbours...?


Have you seen the cutest girl thread? That gives you your answer right there. 95% of them look the same.


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

lisbeth said:


> I'm just gonna ask any men reading this post right now: do you have the same taste in women as all your friends, relatives, coworkers, neighbours...?


Far far far from it.

Tbyr that thread is just a passing trend to what people consider SEXY, thats it.
Honestly, personallity becomes much more sexier as you get to know a person.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Umpalumpa said:


> Far far far from it.
> 
> Tbyr that thread is just a passing trend to what people consider SEXY, thats it.
> Honestly, personallity becomes much more sexier as you get to know a person.


And? The point is that most guys find almost the same exact thing sexy, with little to no flexibility. The genders are just different in that regard.

Yes, but most people don't want to get to know someone they find unattractive. That's the whole point. Looks are the first thing you see.


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

tbyrfan said:


> And? The point is that most guys find almost the same exact thing sexy, with little to no flexibility. The genders are just different in that regard.
> 
> Yes, but most people don't want to get to know someone they find unattractive. That's the whole point. Looks are the first thing you see.


What about your boyfriend? Doesnt he like you? Didnt he make an effort to get to know you?


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Umpalumpa said:


> What about your boyfriend? Doesnt he like you? Didnt he make an effort to get to know you?


Most, not all. I don't believe that anyone genuinely finds me attractive because i'm not. And it's not really appropriate or relevant to bring my relationship into this, thanks.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> Have you seen the cutest girl thread? That gives you your answer right there. 95% of them look the same.


That may partly be because it's mostly the same people posting in there, if it's anything like the cutest guy thread. If you looked in the cutest guy thread, you'd think every woman liked hairy lumberjack types because I and a couple of other users post so many.

But seriously, not all men are the same. Not all men like the same things. Just using figures as an example, some men are into overweight women and some men are into super-skinny women and some men are into muscular women and some men are into women with figures like Kate Upton.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

lisbeth said:


> That may partly be because it's mostly the same people posting in there, if it's anything like the cutest guy thread. If you looked in the cutest guy thread, you'd think every woman liked hairy lumberjack types because I and a couple of other users post so many.


Not at all...the thread is filled with all different types of guys. Skinny, muscular, feminine, masculine, hairless, hairy...despite the fact that the same people post in it.


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

I really feel like my efforts in the cutest girl thread aren't being appreciated.


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

tbyrfan said:


> Most, not all. I don't believe that anyone genuinely finds me attractive because i'm not. And it's not really appropriate or relevant to bring my relationship into this, thanks.


Was just saying that.... Well... You got a boyfriend, somebody likes you, why would you need EVERYBODY to like you....


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

jingybopa said:


> Come now Karl. At least be honest. You wish MLK hadn't been assassinated because his death was (despite your assertion elsewhere that the assassination JFK was entirely responsible) one of the things that led to The Gun Control Act of 1968.
> As to his plagiarism and adultery, while I don't condone either, those two things have absolutely nothing to do with his public work. Had he still been alive when such things were made public, it would have made no difference.


No, I really wish he'd lived on and dropped dead of natural causes. Something like a heart attack while with a mistress at 55 or something embarrassing like that. Instead he's a martyr.

It's much easier to be a martyr if you die young. It prevents you from having decades to make a total a** out of yourself and destroy your legacy.


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## Silere (Oct 19, 2014)

lisbeth said:


> I'm just gonna ask any men reading this post right now: do you have the same taste in women as all your friends, relatives, coworkers, neighbours...?


No. Don't get me wrong I, like everyone else, can see the conventional beauty, but my feelings of attraction are down to the individual.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Umpalumpa said:


> Was just saying that.... Well... You got a boyfriend, somebody likes you, why would you need EVERYBODY to like you....


I don't. I just wish that I was attractive so I could be happy with my looks.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

Cerberus said:


> I really feel like my efforts in the cutest girl thread aren't being appreciated.


Because we're not fools and can see your crotch bulge under those panties.


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

Kind Of said:


> Because we're not fools and can see your crotch bulge under those panties.


:clap

I knew there was something off in that thread....


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

Kind Of said:


> Because we're not fools and can see your crotch bulge under those panties.


Months of preparation squandered by a bulge

Well, I guess I'll have to make another skin suit. I'll need a couch, a van, a creepy basement, night vision goggles, a giant hole in that basement, a bunch of mannequins, and a cute little doggy.


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## Umpalumpa (Jan 26, 2014)

Cerberus said:


> Months of preparation squandered by a bulge
> 
> Well, I guess I'll have to make another skin suit. I'll need a couch, a van, a creepy basement, night vision goggles, a giant hole in that basement, a bunch of mannequins, and a cute little doggy.


Mustache man, you forgot the mustache.


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## the collector (Aug 15, 2010)

Shameful said:


> All normal guys have plenty of "options" already.


Even most normal guys have to work to get sex...OP. is refering to to men who are so popular that women practically throw themselves at them on a regular basis.


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## the collector (Aug 15, 2010)

Anyway OP, this is exactly why famous men, celebrities,actors,rock stars,pro athletes cheat on their wives/gf's most of the time.Women are practically throwing themselves at them on a regular basis.Most men don't have the type of self control to resist that degree of temptation.


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## Mr Bacon (Mar 10, 2012)

lisbeth said:


> I'm just gonna ask any men reading this post right now: do you have the same taste in women as all your friends, relatives, coworkers, neighbours...?


Each time a friend has shown me a pic of one of his targets, before going "_look man, she's super hot isn't she?_" I've never felt the urge to reply "_hell no, she's unf**kable!_"

My made-up rule of thumb is that *one man's 10 is another man's 7 at worse.* I believe our general tastes are mostly universal, while specifics differ - beauty is 70% objective, 30% subjective.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

lisbeth said:


> I'm just gonna ask any men reading this post right now: do you have the same taste in women as all your friends, relatives, coworkers, neighbours...?


Nope, my tastes are quite different to my friends who are again quite different to eachother. For example I'm drawn to pale skinned dark haired woman, a good friend is drawn to blonde haired tanned woman (beach girls, who do nothing for me whatsoever) and another has always dated slightly larger woman. If all men only found beach babes attractive then is one suggesting that any girl who isn't a blonde beach babe and is in a relationship is with a guy who is not genuinely attracted to her and is only with her because he's yet to find that beach babe all must lust over?

Also I Have a question for those in here who worry about a guy being with them solely because he's waiting to "upgrade". What would it take for you to genuinely feel like they are with you because they genuinely want you and only you? Because i worry that nothing he does could ever make you completely believe that and that insecurity can ruin relationships and I'm speaking from experience with this, too.


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## extremly (Oct 25, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> Not at all...the thread is filled with all different types of guys. Skinny, muscular, feminine, masculine, hairless, hairy...despite the fact that the same people post in it.


Biological difference between how the sexes measure attractiveness confirmed?


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Mr Bacon said:


> Each time a friend has shown me a pic of one of his targets, before going "_look man, she's super hot isn't she?_" I've never felt the urge to reply "_hell no, she's unf**kable!_"
> 
> My made-up rule of thumb is that *one man's 10 is another man's 7 at worse.* I believe our general tastes are mostly universal, while specifics differ - beauty is 70% objective, 30% subjective.


"Targets"? Wow...

And yep, it's so true. I would argue it's much more like 90% objective and 10% subjective, though.



AussiePea said:


> Also I Have a question for those in here who worry about a guy being with them solely because he's waiting to "upgrade". What would it take for you to genuinely feel like they are with you because they genuinely want you and only you?


Being conventionally attractive, obviously.

It's essentially a trap. Confidence is considered an enormous turn-off in unattractive women, yet a lot of people are put off by insecurity after a while and can't deal with it. So basically the only way you can win is to be conventionally attractive.



extremly said:


> Biological difference between how the sexes measure attractiveness confirmed?


There's most definitely a huge difference.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

AussiePea said:


> Nope, my tastes are quite different to my friends who are again quite different to eachother. For example I'm drawn to pale skinned dark haired woman, a good friend is drawn to blonde haired tanned woman (beach girls, who do nothing for me whatsoever) and another has always dated slightly larger woman. If all men only found beach babes attractive then is one suggesting that any girl who isn't a blonde beach babe and is in a relationship is with a guy who is not genuinely attracted to her and is only with her because he's yet to find that beach babe all must lust over?
> 
> Also I Have a question for those in here who worry about a guy being with them solely because he's waiting to "upgrade". What would it take for you to genuinely feel like they are with you because they genuinely want you and only you? Because i worry that nothing he does could ever make you completely believe that and that insecurity can ruin relationships and I'm speaking from experience with this, too.


Character. I wouldn't trust the type of guys who are into:
1) "Gaining experience" with women they see as beneath them
2) Putting down women based on weight, age, appearance, etc
3) Justifying lies, manipulation, dishonesty, or abuse in any way, including saying that it's the way men are or that they had no other option to get sex

under any circumstances to be honest, genuine, and trustworthy.

People are perfectly capable of saying these things when you're not looking, though, so it's important to vet for a general tendency to see people as a means to an end, and if possible to observe them on social media or interacting with friends and family where they're going to be more natural. I don't believe that people typically lack character, integrity, or staying power in one and only one element of life if that's the kind of person they are.

I think it's like how people who have problems with alcohol, gambling, or spending tend to have an addictive personality, thrill-seeking tendencies, or poor impulse control in general. It's not all about their outlet of choice.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Grand said:


> The thing is... guys may like different "types" of women, but most of those women will have conventionally attractive facial features or something else like that. For example, maybe a guy likes goth girls. The goth girl he is likely to rate a 10 (I hate the rating system used on women, btw), would likely be rated highly by other men if she dressed in another style.
> 
> There are women who will be rated lowly by the majority of men. Sure, some guy might be attracted to her, but she will know where she stands with most men.


Yuuuup. Exactly.


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## Dre12 (Jul 25, 2014)

I think with men it is an age thing too, young guys are more likely to be monkey branching (good term) than older guys. At my age now I just want to settle down. I would have little interest in looking for better prospects if I was in a relationship. I can only speak for myself but I think that you do become more sensitive to the feelings of others as you get older. I now see the value in companionship and stability. I have to admit that my sex drive is about a quarter of what it was when I was 20. I think that has also changed my perception of things, for the better.

Of course everyone's tastes in women are different. I like shorter women with dark features and curves. I also like black women. The blonde babe look does absolutely nothing for me but is often held up as the archetypal vision of modern beauty. One of my friends from school really liked flat chested women, Asian women and tattooed punk women. Some men like heavier women and some men like older women. The spectrum is broad and well covered.


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## Mr Bacon (Mar 10, 2012)

Dre12 said:


> The blonde babe look does absolutely nothing for me





AussiePea said:


> Nope, my tastes are quite different to my friends who are again quite different to eachother. For example I'm drawn to pale skinned dark haired woman, a good friend is drawn to blonde haired tanned woman (beach girls, who do nothing for me whatsoever)


That girl below does nothing for you?


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## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr Bacon said:


> That girl below does nothing for you?


No, I don't find her attractive.

(and I feel bad for judging her...poor random stranger)


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

Speaking on the intelligence and sense of humor thing earlier in the thread...I would certainly prefer a woman that was intelligent and a sense of humor is a HUGE plus. I can't tell you how much more attractive that makes a woman to me. If I can joke with her and she has a good sense of humor (or at least compatible with mine) I think it's great.

Intelligence- I agree that if she is a genius or is a scientist or something like that...yea that would intimidate a lot of guys. However I'd definitely want a woman that was intelligent enough to carry on conversations about subjects outside of pop culture or Kardashians etc. If she is really dumb or ignorant it is actually a turnoff to me.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Mr Bacon said:


> That girl below does nothing for you?


I look at her and thing, yeah, she's obviously won the genetic battle but I'm not "attracted" to her and don't lust over her. Physically she doesn't get my heart racing in the slightest.


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## Dre12 (Jul 25, 2014)

@Mr Bacon

That look does nothing for me. I don't like the blonde hair and fake tan look at all. That girl also has fake breasts, that is a massive turn off for me. I much prefer a natural look. I prefer women with no make up, no piercings, natural beauty if you like.

She also looks like she would have very different interests to me. I can't imagine having anything in common with her. I think her obvious dedication to how she looks would annoy me too.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

Mr Bacon said:


> Each time a friend has shown me a pic of one of his targets, before going "_look man, she's super hot isn't she?_" I've never felt the urge to reply "_hell no, she's unf**kable!_"
> 
> My made-up rule of thumb is that *one man's 10 is another man's 7 at worse.* I believe our general tastes are mostly universal, while specifics differ - beauty is 70% objective, 30% subjective.


Is one man's 7 another man's 4? Serious question. My guess would be 'yes', but I'm not male or interested in women.



AussiePea said:


> Also I Have a question for those in here who worry about a guy being with them solely because he's waiting to "upgrade". What would it take for you to genuinely feel like they are with you because they genuinely want you and only you? Because i worry that nothing he does could ever make you completely believe that and that insecurity can ruin relationships and I'm speaking from experience with this, too.


Better self esteem, lower neuroticism and lower insecurity, like you say.

But really, somebody who _does_ treat me like they genuinely like me, for the traits that make me who I am as a person. This is a "lisbeth makes crap decisions about which men she likes" problem, but with most of the guys who've "liked" me (I have to put that in quotation marks) it's basically felt like "I like you because you're petite and shy with a young face, hurrdurr" and no matter how much we've talked, it hasn't really felt like they listened to anything I say. I want a guy who talks to me the way my male friends talk to me. They like me because I'm funny_, _brainy, dorky, overanalytical and whatever else, and take me as I am. Haven't really come across that yet non-platonically, which is partly luck of the draw and partly my fault. It's hard for quiet girls to meet nice men, tbh. I'm not trying to meet anybody but maybe when I do want to try again I'll be better about that.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

lisbeth said:


> Better self esteem, lower neuroticism and lower insecurity, like you say.
> 
> But really, somebody who _does_ treat me like they genuinely like me, for the traits that make me who I am as a person. This is a "lisbeth makes crap decisions about which men she likes" problem, but with most of the guys who've "liked" me (I have to put that in quotation marks) it's basically felt like "I like you because you're petite and shy with a young face, hurrdurr" and no matter how much we've talked, it hasn't really felt like they listened to anything I say. I want a guy who talks to me the way my male friends talk to me. They like me because I'm funny_, _brainy, dorky, overanalytical and whatever else, and take me as I am. Haven't really come across that yet non-platonically, which is partly luck of the draw and partly my fault. It's hard for quiet girls to meet nice men, tbh. I'm not trying to meet anybody but maybe when I do want to try again I'll be better about that.


I suppose it boils down to that "click" you get with certain people where you just naturally feel completely at ease because it feels genuine. I still believe that there's that immeasurable quality about a successful relationship where people just work, where even if on paper it looks like it should't be a match but there's a special connection going on.

Maybe I've also watched too many rom coms.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

lisbeth said:


> I'm just gonna ask any men reading this post right now: do you have the same taste in women as all your friends, relatives, coworkers, neighbours...?


Definitely not. I thought my brother and I had pretty similar taste in women but when talking about women recently I realized that was not the case.

His friend is attracted to "bigger" women. Some co-workers have a very different taste in women than others or than I do.


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## Wagnerian (Aug 5, 2014)

This idea that men are biologically hard-wired to be compassionless, insensitive automatons programmed for sex is some of the most utterly conventional, unremarkable vulture vomit I come across in the already tepid wasteland of common opinion.

Of course, the men who ARE actually like that, are quite happy to rationalize the notion and propagate it by cloaking it in seemingly sophisticated scientific nomenclature.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Wagnerian said:


> This idea that men are biologically hard-wired to be compassionless, insensitive automatons programmed for sex is some of the most utterly conventional, unremarkable vulture vomit I come across in the already tepid wasteland of common opinion.
> 
> Of course, the men who ARE actually like that, are quite happy to rationalize the notion and propagate it by cloaking it in seemingly sophisticated scientific nomenclature.


Not to mention that it's these men who are concentrated on and who make the headlines and with that the stereotype of it being a widespread gender issue instead of an issue on the individual level grows. When 5% of the population gets 80% of the coverage it's no surprise that people believe it's more widespread than it actually is.


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## Mr Bacon (Mar 10, 2012)

lisbeth said:


> Is one man's 7 another man's 4?


Yes.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

It seems that for a lot of guys, "7" is synonymous with "meh" and not great looking (even though it should mean that they're more attractive than 70% of the population). Not sure why they use the rating scale that way.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

tbyrfan said:


> It seems that for a lot of guys, "7" is synonymous with "meh" and not great looking (even though it should mean that they're more attractive than 70% of the population). Not sure why they use the rating scale that way.


It depends. I don't like the "rating scale" but when talking to other guys it comes into play. I've gone out with women I considered a "7" and thought she was attractive. Honestly a 5 is "meh" and a 7 is attractive- though not "gorgeous" to most guys I've talked to.


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## McFly (Jul 15, 2014)

So this has turned into a man hating thread?


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

George McFly said:


> So this has turned into a man hating thread?


No, I just think there are some unhealthy stereotypes floating around.


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## jingybopa (Jan 26, 2011)

UltraShy said:


> No, I really wish he'd lived on and dropped dead of natural causes. Something like a heart attack while with a mistress at 55 or something embarrassing like that. Instead he's a martyr.
> 
> It's much easier to be a martyr if you die young. It prevents you from having decades to make a total a** out of yourself and destroy your legacy.


 Had he died of a heart attack in bed with a mistress. He'd still be dead. Thus any embarrassment over the situation would not have been felt by him. Even if he had lived long enough for such revelations, it would not have mattered. His importance to the civil rights movement would not have been at all affected. Karl, had he lived for decades. And continued to have affairs. None of this would in any way retroactively undue his civil rights work. He plagiarized in college. There is no indication that he plagiarized his famous speeches. People have looked into this, much like they would have had he lived. No matter what may have have happened after 1968, had he lived, nothing could retroactively undue his public work from the mid 50's until his death. Even if he had publicly embarrassed himself, his legacy would remain intact.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Darktower776 said:


> It depends. I don't like the "rating scale" but when talking to other guys it comes into play. I've gone out with women I considered a "7" and thought she was attractive. Honestly a 5 is "meh" and a 7 is attractive- though not "gorgeous" to most guys I've talked to.


Yeah, being called anything less than an 8 is pretty much an insult. That's why the rating scale sucks. Keep it to yourself, people don't need to know what number they are.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

George McFly said:


> So this has turned into a man hating thread?


I don't see any hating. We're trying to get an understanding of male behavior. And some of us may be on the fence about whether we're compatible with men.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

The 10 point rating system is more an American thing than a male thing, I think.
But men do have different tastes and likes in women. I've typically liked other types than most of my friends - though they didn't all like the same types either, of course.
But I think maybe the people who talk about these things most tend to have the similar likes - it seems there's a generally shared idea of what is considered stereotypically, popularly good looking. I think that goes for both men and women, but it doesn't mean all men/women share that opinion, just that those that type that's more likely to talk about looks a lot might lean towards that opinion.



Shameful said:


> I don't see any hating. We're trying to get an understanding of male behavior. And some of us may be on the fence about whether we're compatible with men.


On the fence? How could you conclude that you aren't compatible with all men without making a huge, unfair generalisation?

It's obviously not the case that attraction is completely random and everybody will be found equally attractive (neither for women nor men), and some will sadly have a lot of trouble finding partners because of it, but it's not a monolithic opinion either. Most people will be able to find a partner without too much trouble - and another if that relationship doesn't work out.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

Re:man-hating: Can I just say that if I was a lesbian I'd be equally uneasy about dating?

Also, I love your post, wagnerian:


Wagnerian said:


> This idea that men are biologically hard-wired to be compassionless, insensitive automatons programmed for sex is some of the most utterly conventional, unremarkable vulture vomit I come across in the already tepid wasteland of common opinion.
> 
> Of course, the men who ARE actually like that, are quite happy to rationalize the notion and propagate it by cloaking it in seemingly sophisticated scientific nomenclature.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

jingybopa said:


> Had he died of a heart attack in bed with a mistress. He'd still be dead. Thus any embarrassment over the situation would not have been felt by him. Even if he had lived long enough for such revelations, it would not have mattered. His importance to the civil rights movement would not have been at all affected. Karl, had he lived for decades. And continued to have affairs. None of this would in any way retroactively undue his civil rights work. He plagiarized in college. There is no indication that he plagiarized his famous speeches. People have looked into this, much like they would have had he lived. No matter what may have have happened after 1968, had he lived, nothing could retroactively undue his public work from the mid 50's until his death. Even if he had publicly embarrassed himself, his legacy would remain intact.


Yeah, but you don't die as a martyr unless you're assassinated. I hate that he was killed because he doesn't deserve martyr status.

And it tends to hurt your image if you're found by paramedic with your pants down in another woman's bed, such that your wife spits on your corpse at your funeral.

Do you see the difference?


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## McFly (Jul 15, 2014)

Shameful said:


> I don't see any hating. We're trying to get an understanding of male behavior. And some of us may be on the fence about whether we're compatible with men.


I don't see what that's going to accomplish. Traditionally men go for beauty and women go for personality, it differs from person to person. The rating scale is just stupid. I see 'HBB 10s' that aren't attractive to me all. I see guys label a girl a 6/10 or 4/10 and I think she's gorgeous. All men are different and I've known plenty of happy couples where no cheating is going on. So you're looking way too much into the behavior of bad men. 
This thread has become unfair to guys in general, we are not all a bunch of horndogs with our penis hanging out of out pants.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

George McFly said:


> Traditionally men go for beauty


See, for me, that's not something that I can tolerate. If a guy is interested in me primarily because of my appearance, that bothers me.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

Some men cheat, some don't. Some women cheat, some don't. Reasons for why vary. I don't think its a biological issue with men, and I don't think all men are only faithful when there's no better options. Maybe immature and shallow men, but that's not all men. 

Plus, the idea that all men only date _+/10 is silly. Esp since, like others said, mwhat is attractive differs from man to man. I've worked in retail and seen dozens upon dozens of couples a day, and a majority of the women of the pairs were not great looking gals, but i say that as a straight woman--im sure their men found them very attractive. I saw plenty of plain girls with guys who IMO weren't plain. Hell, my friend is a lesbian and I'm way surprised by the chicks she says she likes. Just as how shes way surprised by the guys i say i like, since her standards of whats attractive in men is muuuch stricter since shes not actually attracted to their gender/general penis. Straight women are way more critical of their own gender because we don't want to **** them, so we look at women IMO and imagine how'd they look through the eyes of a guy, but while doing so we maintain the same critical view. IMO, what guys find attached and what girls think guys find attractive is waaaay different. I used to think guys were repulsed by any girl who didn't have perfect hair, flat stomach, big perky tits, etc---and I've learned I couldn't be more wrong!! 

And let me say too, when those guys cheat, IMO, they often take what they can get, because usually its the act itself that gets them excites. I've noticed guys cheat with chicks that are often enough less attractive than their gf or wife. Because cheating guys will cheat, and its the act, not the person, they enjoy (whether from the adrenaline from lying, the ennui from monotony, w/e). 

I mean, sex-crazed frat boy child men are only a minority. They just happen to be the louder and boisterous types, and act like all men are as immature and chauvinisic as them.

Edit: omfg the typos I've had to correct. I'm on my ****ty and annoying tablet, pls don't judge mistakes.


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## jingybopa (Jan 26, 2011)

UltraShy said:


> Yeah, but you don't die as a martyr unless you're assassinated. I hate that he was killed because he doesn't deserve martyr status.
> 
> And it tends to hurt your image if you're found by paramedic with your pants down in another woman's bed, such that your wife spits on your corpse at your funeral.
> 
> Do you see the difference?


 When you're dead, you're dead. As a self-described "militant atheist", I'd think you of all people would be unconcerned with posthumous reputations. I'm not saying his image would would have remained unscathed had he lived. I'm simply saying his doctoral plagiarism and adultery have no relevance to his civil rights work. Unlike in the arts where personal information that comes to light can retroactively change the perception of a work, none of the stuff king is known for would be reevaluated, had he lived. 
As to "I hate that he was killed because he doesn't deserve martyr status." You obviously don't understand the meaning of the word martyr. Why are you such a bitter spiteful person? What's your issue with MLK? In what way did his life and work so negatively affect your life that you are so bitter about him being assassinated five years before you were born? It's just sad that rather than recognizing the positive changes to society he helped bring about you sit in front of your computer bemoaning the fact that was murdered.


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## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

Barette said:


> Some men cheat, some don't. Some women cheat, some don't. Reasons for why vary. I don't think its a biological issue with men, and I don't think all men are only faithful when there's no better options. Maybe immature and shallow men, but that's not all men.
> 
> Plus, the idea that all men only date _+/10 is silly. Esp since, like others said, mwhat is attractive differs from man to man. I've worked in retail and seen dozens upon dozens of couples a day, and a majority of the women of the pairs were not great looking gals, but i say that as a straight woman--im sure their men found them very attractive. I saw plenty of plain girls with guys who IMO weren't plain. Hell, my friend is a las man and I'm way surprised by the chicks she says she likes. Straight women are way more critical of their own gender because we don't want to **** them, so we look at women IMO and imagine how'd they look through the eyes of a guy, but while doing so we maintain the same critical view. IMO, what guys find attached and what girls think guys find attractive is waaaay different. I used to think guys were repulsed by any girl who didn't have perfect hair, flat stomach, big perky tits, etc---and I've learned I couldn't be more wrong!!
> 
> ...


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## PhilipJFry (Jan 24, 2012)

Shameful said:


> I don't see any hating. We're trying to get an understanding of male behavior. And some of us may be on the fence about whether we're compatible with men.


Which you're not going to be able to do, based on comments on this site. Otherwise, you're just generalizing. Everyone is different and has different interests. I know there's certain traits that are much more common than others but that's not saying much.

Everyone is different and stereotyping the opposite sex based on bad experiences we've had as young adults, doesn't seem fair.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Barette said:


> I used to think guys were repulsed by any girl who didn't have perfect hair, flat stomach, big perky tits, etc---and I've learned I couldn't be more wrong!!
> 
> And let me say too, when those guys cheat, IMO, they often take what they can get, because usually its the act itself that gets them excites. I've noticed guys cheat with chicks that are often enough less attractive than their gf or wife. Because cheating guys will cheat, and its the act, not the person, they enjoy (whether from the adrenaline from lying, the ennui from monotony, w/e).


I think it does vary a lot in terms of body type. There are guys who like curvy women, guys who like skinny women, etc. The face seems to be the feature that there is almost no flexibility for, but i'm not sure why.

I've heard that about cheating, too. If a more attractive woman comes along, most would probably just dump their girlfriend and date the other woman very soon after.


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## McFly (Jul 15, 2014)

Barette said:


> Some men cheat, some don't. Some women cheat, some don't. Reasons for why vary. I don't think its a biological issue with men, and I don't think all men are only faithful when there's no better options. Maybe immature and shallow men, but that's not all men.
> 
> Plus, the idea that all men only date _+/10 is silly. Esp since, like others said, mwhat is attractive differs from man to man. I've worked in retail and seen dozens upon dozens of couples a day, and a majority of the women of the pairs were not great looking gals, but i say that as a straight woman--im sure their men found them very attractive. I saw plenty of plain girls with guys who IMO weren't plain. Hell, my friend is a lesbian and I'm way surprised by the chicks she says she likes. Straight women are way more critical of their own gender because we don't want to **** them, so we look at women IMO and imagine how'd they look through the eyes of a guy, but while doing so we maintain the same critical view. IMO, what guys find attached and what girls think guys find attractive is waaaay different. I used to think guys were repulsed by any girl who didn't have perfect hair, flat stomach, big perky tits, etc---and I've learned I couldn't be more wrong!!
> 
> ...


This is the smartest post in this thread so far.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> I think it does vary a lot in terms of body type. There are guys who like curvy women, guys who like skinny women, etc. The face seems to be the feature that there is almost no flexibility for, but i'm not sure why.
> 
> I've heard that about cheating, too. If a more attractive woman comes along, most would probably just dump their girlfriend and date the other woman very soon after.


I very much disagree on both parts. You're putting men into this little box, and labeling it "shallow." Men can love women with big noses, men can love women with little chins, men can love underbites, men can love overbites, men can love big cheeks... Are all square-faced women doomed to a lack of love? or heart-shaped women? thin-lipped women? how would these genes continue to be passed down if men weren't marrying and sexing up the women who had them? There are flexibilities in terms of facial features. My chin crinkles when I close my mouth and I have thin lips. My eyes are close together. I could tell you all my flaws that I focus on day in day out in the mirror---_but men don't focus on those flaws like I do_. Men are not even aware of them, I'm sure. Men are not looking at me and saying "nah that girl's ugly her eyes are less than one eye-width in between." They're not, haha, they're simply not. Me thinking they are, that's me imposing my own insecurities upon them and then damning them for my own assumptions.

And no, most men would not dump their partner if a more attractive woman came along just to **** a prettier face. Some would, but those are immature man boys---those are a special breed of douche that does not represent all men.


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## Shameful (Sep 5, 2014)

Barette said:


> And no, most men would not dump their partner if a more attractive woman came along just to **** a prettier face. Some would, but those are immature man boys---those are a special breed of douche that does not represent all men.


I hope not. Because if men would, that's basically the same as saying that men don't form strong emotional bonds to their partner, and I don't believe that.

That's what freaks me out about cheating. If someone "better" came along, and I was in a relationship, I wouldn't cheat or leave him for him, because this new person I have no emotional connection to. I would really hope men would feel the same, that this hotter girl is just a random girl, not someone he has an emotional bond with.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Shameful said:


> I hope not. Because if men would, that's basically the same as saying that men don't form strong emotional bonds to their partner, and I don't believe that.
> 
> That's what freaks me out about cheating. If someone "better" came along, and I was in a relationship, I wouldn't cheat or leave him for him, because this new person I have no emotional connection to. I would really hope men would feel the same, that this hotter girl is just a random girl, not someone he has an emotional bond with.


Men do feel the same way as a whole and don't let yourself get brainwashed into believing something else.

-----------

The other thing about facial aesthetics which cannot be overlooked are a persons mannerisms. Quite a few times I have met woman who at first glance I may not have found overly attractive however once in a conversation with them, the way they spoke, the way they smiled and so forth made quite a large impact on my physical perceptions of them. I'm sure a lot of this has to do with their personalities too which affects how they interact. That's why I think video features on dating sites should be an option because a moving image of a person in conversation tells an immeasurable amount more about them than a static image.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

Shameful said:


> I hope not. Because if men would, that's basically the same as saying that men don't form strong emotional bonds to their partner, and I don't believe that.
> 
> That's what freaks me out about cheating. If someone "better" came along, and I was in a relationship, I wouldn't cheat or leave him for him, because this new person I have no emotional connection to. I would really hope men would feel the same, that this hotter girl is just a random girl, not someone he has an emotional bond with.


Not all men. Just whatever happens, whatever a guy does, it's important to remember "not all men." Even, "not most men." I can't imagine having a romantic love for a woman, so I have trouble imaging what it's like for a man to have romantic love for a woman---I have a harder time imagining somebody having love for me, but that's not evidence that men can't love. That's just my own limited ability to put myself into their shoes. Men can form emotional bongs, even strong ones! lol. Whatever you feel for guys, or whatever hopes you have with guys---that's what guys have for girls lol. it's that simple, cause men are... human, haha.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Barette said:


> I very much disagree on both parts. You're putting men into this little box, and labeling it "shallow." Men can love women with big noses, men can love women with little chins, men can love underbites, men can love overbites, men can love big cheeks... Are all square-faced women doomed to a lack of love? or heart-shaped women? thin-lipped women? how would these genes continue to be passed down if men weren't marrying and sexing up the women who had them?


Nobody's doomed, but they're less likely to find love. I wonder if those traits are more likely to be passed on by men, though, since I almost never see couples where the woman is unattractive. Not saying it's impossible, it's just what i've seen personally. :stu



Barette said:


> There are flexibilities in terms of facial features. My chin crinkles when I close my mouth and I have thin lips. My eyes are close together. I could tell you all my flaws that I focus on day in day out in the mirror---_but men don't focus on those flaws like I do_. Men are not looking at me and saying "nah that girl's ugly her eyes are not more than one eye-width in between."


Gonna have to strongly disagree with this. From my experiences, guys do notice and pick at a lot of very specific flaws. I've heard them talk about eyes being too close together/far apart, noses having a bump/being bulbous or hook-like, chins being square/manly, having a crooked tooth, etc...only the young man-boy douchebags, though. Still, I can't help but wonder if the others still scrutinize like that, but do it silently instead.



Barette said:


> And no, most men would not dump their partner if a more attractive woman came along just to **** a prettier face. Some would, but those are immature man boys---those are a special breed of douche that does not represent all men.


I'm not sure what most would do in that situation. I would hope that they wouldn't do that.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> Nobody's doomed, but they're less likely to find love. I wonder if those traits are more likely to be passed on by men, though, since I almost never see couples where the woman is unattractive. Not saying it's impossible, it's just what i've seen personally. :stu


I'll be frank, and say that that's because of your own personal bias and preconceived notions. Like I said, i've worked in a mall and a strip mall and have probably seen, in total, hundreds of couples just in that environment alone (not even counting school, being out on the town, etc), and I can say that the woman has been unattractive, imo, in many a-couple. But I don't like to f*** women, so my standards of 'attractive' in women are massively overstretched---far higher than that of the average guy.



tbyrfan said:


> Gonna have to strongly disagree with this. From my experiences, guys do notice and pick at a lot of very specific flaws. I've heard them talk about eyes being too close together/far apart, noses having a bump/being bulbous or hook-like, chins being square/manly, having a crooked tooth, etc...only young douchebags, though. Still, I can't help but wonder if the others still scrutinize like that, but do it silently instead.
> 
> I'm not sure what most would do in that situation. I would hope that they wouldn't do that.


Yeah, that's young guys, lol. I've had female friends mention how a guy's legs were too thin, his face too long, his hair too thin, etc, back in middle school and high school. It's being a jerk kid, which is what most kids are. That's why I kept saying "immature guys," that's something you eventually grow out of when you mentally grow and begin to appreciate others mentally rather than just nit-picking for perfection.

idk, this is an idea you've talked about a lot and can never be swayed from because it's just such a big issue for you, however little i (or others) will tell you it's based in reality.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Barette said:


> I'll be frank, and say that that's because of your own personal bias and preconceived notions. Like I said, i've worked in a mall and a strip mall and have probably seen, in total, hundreds of couples just in that environment alone (not even counting school, being out on the town, etc), and I can say that the woman has been unattractive, imo, in many a-couple.





Barette said:


> idk, this is an idea you've talked about a lot and can never be swayed from because it's just such a big issue for you, however little i (or others) will tell you it's based in reality.


I'm not denying that that's what you and others have experienced, but it just sounds so foreign to me because i've almost NEVER seen what you describe, ever. Again, i'm not saying that that's impossible (i'm living proof that it is, considering i'm extremely ugly and in a relationship myself), but that it's very, very rare. Men are just far pickier as a whole when it comes to looks. Most can't help it, and they're not bad people at all - only the ones who feel the need to insult women and treat them poorly because of their looks.


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## extremly (Oct 25, 2012)

^ Average looking girls can certainly date up though. Is all about location. Some places are skewed towards women, resulting in them having a buffet of men, and other places are skewed towards men having their pick of the liter in attractive women.

Heck it gets even more complicated when you add ethnicity, history, culture, and social dynamics of the place.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

extremly said:


> ^ Average looking girls can certainly date up though. Is all about location. Some places are skewed towards women having penis buffets and other places are skewed towards men having their pick of the liter in attractive women.


This is true - there's an interactive map of this online somewhere. Culture also plays into it too, as you said. Someone who would be considered hideous by guys in my hometown would probably be considered average or even attractive in, say, Iowa or Mississippi.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

This whole thread is a trainwreck.

People are honestly questioning if men can form emotional bonds. As if they're a different species somewhere between a tarsier and a chimpanzee. It's profoundly delusional and discouraging to read.

Men form the same emotional bonds that women do. That's why they're often willing to sacrifice their lives for their loved ones. Men and women both cheat, more or less the same amount, and every person cheats for their own reasons. Men and women are both equally shallow, only shallow about different things.

Cheating isn't a gendered issue.


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## extremly (Oct 25, 2012)

truant said:


> Men form the same emotional bonds that women do.


I agree with most of what you said but this.

The conditioning of men is different than women's.

The way men perceive the world is different than women.

The traits that would be most advantageous to have as a man might not be the same as those of women.

Biologically speaking men and women are also very different. Even their brains (responsible for everything including emotions) are different.

I wouldn't say that the emotional connection women and men form are the same. Not saying that one is better than the other but, they are certainly different.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

truant said:


> This whole thread is a trainwreck.
> 
> People are honestly questioning if men can form emotional bonds. As if they're a different species somewhere between a tarsier and a chimpanzee. It's profoundly delusional and discouraging to read.
> 
> ...


I agree.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

tbyrfan said:


> I've heard that about cheating, too. If a more attractive woman comes along, most would probably just dump their girlfriend and date the other woman very soon after.


Honest question: Do you constantly worry about your boyfriend dumping you for that reason?


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Darktower776 said:


> Honest question: Do you constantly worry about your boyfriend dumping you for that reason?


Not really, no.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

extremly said:


> The conditioning of men is different than women's.
> 
> The way men perceive the world is different than women.
> 
> ...


I agree with the first part, but not your conclusion: most men and women are conditioned for different roles. These roles have evolved as cultural refinements of innate biological differences. This conditioning, along with the functional consequences of sexual activity, naturally lead men and women to view the world differently, just as a steel worker might see the world differently from someone who works in an office building. But it doesn't automatically follow that the experience of being in love with another human being is fundamentally different for men and women, just as the experience of getting a paycheck isn't fundamentally different for a steel worker or an office manager. The roles and means of acquiring the paycheck can be different without it affecting the "payoff".

If you think that the emotional bonds that men and women form are different, then you have to argue that when two men are in love, their love is fundamentally different from the love that a man and a woman share, and that both are fundamentally different from the love that two women have for each other. I just don't see that as the sort of thing that can be proven, or that needs to be proven. I'm bi: when I think about being in a relationship with a man or a woman, it doesn't fundamentally alter how I perceive that relationship. What I feel is love, and it's the same feeling regardless of the other person's gender.

This is all speaking "in general" of course; men and women naturally emphasize different things in relationships owing to their conditioning, but if my experience of loving another person, and not wanting to hurt them, is the same regardless if I'm a man or a woman, then it follows that my inclination to avoid cheating -- and hurting my partner -- is going to be the same. What's going to differ are my opportunities and my willpower.

I think conditioning mostly affects how men and women _rationalize_ their infidelity. When a man cheats, he points to evolution and the cultural stereotype that "that's just the way men are"; it's just self-serving propaganda. When a woman cheats, she says that she "wasn't happy in the relationship"; which is the self-serving propaganda that women spread about themselves. The stereotype is that men cheat so they can get "younger, hotter women"; the stereotype supports the propaganda they use to justify their actions. How is this different from a woman cheating because her husband's a "bad lay"? Is he a "bad lay" because she's not attracted to him and would rather bang a "bad boy"? How is a handsome pool boy fundamentally different from a cheerleader?

People will use the justification that fits their cultural stereotype. How many men are actually cheating on their wives because their wives aren't providing the kind of emotional support that they need? I bet that number is magnitudes larger than the number that are cheating because they had a shot at a "younger, hotter woman". But in our culture, a man can't use the "I wasn't happy in my relationship" excuse that women use because it conflicts with the cultural stereotype of what it means to "be a man", so, even though it's not true, the man hangs his head in shame and blames himself for being "an animal"; in truth, his actions are no more or less reprehensible than a woman who cheats for the same reason.


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## jeanny (Apr 17, 2014)

George McFly said:


> So this has turned into a man hating thread?


No, this has turned into a woman rating thread. As usually...


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

jeanny said:


> No, this has turned into a woman rating thread. As usually...


Don't be ridiculous.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

truant said:


> This whole thread is a trainwreck.
> 
> People are honestly questioning if men can form emotional bonds. As if they're a different species somewhere between a tarsier and a chimpanzee. It's profoundly delusional and discouraging to read.


Good post. I especially agree with the above part. Can't believe people would genuinely question that...


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## eveningbat (Jan 21, 2013)

Sacrieur said:


> I've been cheated on. I found out after we had broken up, but it's still disappointing. Because when you really put a lot of trust in someone like that and you think back to the times they were just lying straight to your face about things it's miserable.


Hey, I am sorry to hear it, really. It is hurtful. :hug But you are a strong person and you didn't give up. So now you are in another relationship which is trustful and fulfilling, I think.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

eveningbat said:


> Hey, I am sorry to hear it, really. It is hurtful. :hug But you are a strong person and you didn't give up. So now you are in another relationship which is trustful and fulfilling, I think.


Oh I don't care, 1/3 to 1/2 of all people cheat. For anyone that has more than two relationships, it's almost certain that one of the people you dated is going to cheat or has cheated on you.

I mean that it's miserable to think a large portion of the population is sociopathic when it comes to cheating.


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## eveningbat (Jan 21, 2013)

Sacrieur said:


> Oh I don't care, 1/3 to 1/2 of all people cheat. For anyone that has more than two relationships, it's almost certain that one of the people you dated is going to cheat or has cheated on you.
> 
> I mean that it's miserable to think a large portion of the population is sociopathic when it comes to cheating.


It is depressing to think of. Especially if you want a true and faithful relationship.


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## Wagnerian (Aug 5, 2014)

truant said:


> People will use the justification that fits their cultural stereotype.


I think this is true, not just for this topic but for many things. It's rare for people to plainly look at the phenomena they're confronted with and not try to rationalize things in a way that benefits them or their role in society. Like capitalism fits with 'human nature' - who says that? People who are greedy and want everyone else to think that human nature is fundamentally greedy so we can live under their thumb.


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## Elad (Dec 6, 2009)

people behind the keyboard tell me: "no way thats shallow we're not all like that"

real life experiences tell me: "what i say behind my keyboard isn't what i'd really do"

situations change, feelings change and people move on when they find someone they like more. thats life.


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