# The Writer's Corner



## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

> Obscure, hipstery coffee shop? Check.
> WI-FI and laptops ready to use? Check.
> Works in progress to talk about? Check.

Let our first writer's group meeting begin! If you're a writer or an aspiring writer, this shall be the place to go. If you're currently writing a novel, poetry, screenplay, whatever, maybe this thread will allow you to find other writers to connect with.

I'm currently writing my first novel.


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## The Lonely Brain (Apr 4, 2013)

Oh cool, what's it about?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Cool idea. 

Does anyone know a good place to post poetry for critique online by the way? I was using fictionpress (but only got one vague review ages ago) and then started using allpoetry.com which was better, but I'd only get a few reviews per poem. I'm not sure if it's because my poetry was bad or if it's just really hard for people to find with so many people posting work regularly. Probably a mixture of both really


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## Alas Babylon (Aug 28, 2012)

Sounds like a good idea. I'll post something small. I've already showed Lev this. Critique would be appreciated :lol

_The forest bristled with a silent fury, characteristic of the night, and it bears witness to your shame. 
The dark branches and mottled leaves reach through thick mists, that rise up from the earth like smoke rises from a flame.

Muted words whisper in the heavy air. Skeletal limbs extend and sway, their wooden fingers caress the wind, searching for fear. 
They're grasping at things long gone, at things you can no longer hear.

Unseen eyes tug at your arm with a longing and an anger. 
Their spider's embrace grips you, the gnarled fingertips of the trees hold at your clothes as like an anchor.

You should try to leave, try to escape. But this forest will trap you here._


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

I was considering making a topic like this.
Of course, I probably would have named it something awful like The Socially Awkward Writers Club because that's just my sense of humour.

I'm preparing for NaNoWriMo right now, which has been horrible. It's my first year participating and planning is just not for me.
I've been doing daily writing prompts to tide me over, but I wish I could just start on my story already and figure stuff out as I get to it instead of staring at a notepad all day.

Alas: Hey, you added more rhyme. Maybe you could work on the rhythm some more to improve flow. I'll take the first two lines as example:

_The forest bristled with a silent fury, characteristic of the night, and it bears witness to your shame. 
Dark branches and leaves reach through thick mists, rising up from the earth like smoke from a flame. _

It's atmospheric, to be sure. I'm curious now what the rest of the story is.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Good luck with your novel (and other people's works too) 

Yesterday i got news of my 19th printed short story in a lit magazine 

(still no final reply on my novel being examined for a month now by a publishing house, though...).


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

Yesterday I got the first draft of my novel printed. It wasn't cheap, but I highly recommend it. Something about holding a great stack of paper with your name on it offers a satisfaction that a word count and a bunch of letters on a screen just can't.

Mersault: I think you just made everyone insanely jealous... or maybe that's just me. I wish I was there yet, though the wait must be nerve-wracking. I think it will be a few years still before I get to that point. What kind of novel did you write?


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Lev said:


> Yesterday I got the first draft of my novel printed. It wasn't cheap, but I highly recommend it. Something about holding a great stack of paper with your name on it offers a satisfaction that a word count and a bunch of letters on a screen just can't.
> 
> Mersault: I think you just made everyone insanely jealous... or maybe that's just me. I wish I was there yet, though the wait must be nerve-wracking. I think it will be a few years still before I get to that point. What kind of novel did you write?


Congratulations on getting the novel printed  Don't worry about time, the first time i got something published was 4 years ago, it was a 60-page collection of four short stories, and it was a self-publication (cost a lot too...).
It did not do well in the sales, but indeed it was very important for me as well at the time to actually hold a printed version of something i wrote. So i utterly agree with your sentiment  Only two years ago (October 2011) did i start to have printed stories in lit magazines, and things become a lot easier after you make that start. The most difficult part in published writing is getting a first story accepted.

The short novella i sent to the publishing house is about a person who is sunk into a 5-day long hallucination, thinking he has arrived at a different country and found a job and a new life-start there. In reality he is still in his own country, but at least he managed to get out of the dangerous delusion, and the future looks better in the end of the story


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

Congratulations might be a bit much. It was just one copy; I'm just that poor. XD 
I decided to print out my first draft to make it easier to make notes for when I start editing and revising. The feel though... Having that weight in your hands and staring at the pages before you and knowing you made that... That is something.
I mean to do at least one rewrite and one round of editing before trying to submit it anywhere. Maybe I'll end up having to self-publish too though.

That sounds interesting.  I hear it's tough getting novellas published, but it must mean something that they've been holding onto it for so long. I imagine I lost my right to speak on marketable word counts when I overshot the 100k mark by almost double anyway.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

I love the idea of this thread.

Congratulations on your novel Lev. I can't imagine actually holding a "real" (as opposed to just of a printer) copy something that I wrote in my hands. That has to be an amazing feeling.

I'm working on a story right now that I'm planning on being a series. I want it to be a series of novels, but right now the first one is more like a novella than a novel. I'm having a hard time expanding it. I think I'm going to go ahead with the rest of my ideas for the series and then either go back and expand from there or combine them so it's less books than I had originally planned. I'm not sure yet.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

*Aye! So many great posts to respond to. I'll start with these:*


The Lonely Brain said:


> Oh cool, what's it about?


My book is about these college girls who find an ancient Artificial Intelligence. After bonding with it, and getting in trouble with the government, they try to prove that the AI should be granted human rights. In doing so, they uncover the disturbing secrets of their country's past.



Mersault said:


> Good luck with your novel (and other people's works too)
> 
> Yesterday i got news of my 19th printed short story in a lit magazine
> 
> (still no final reply on my novel being examined for a month now by a publishing house, though...).


Congratulations  I hope the publishing house accepts your novel; that must be nerve-racking! What's your book about?



Persephone The Dread said:


> Does anyone know a good place to post poetry for critique online by the way? I was using fictionpress (but only got one vague review ages ago) and then started using allpoetry.com which was better, but I'd only get a few reviews per poem. I'm not sure if it's because my poetry was bad or if it's just really hard for people to find with so many people posting work regularly. Probably a mixture of both really


Try poetry.com. I've used Review Fuse. You have to review a certain number of other people's works to get reviews, but it helps. I honestly never would've finished the first chapter of my book if it weren't for the feedback I received on that site. There's also Wattpad, but I don't know how much feedback you'd normally get there.



Alas Babylon said:


> _The forest bristled with a silent fury, characteristic of the night, and it bears witness to your shame.
> The dark branches and mottled leaves reach through thick mists, that rise up from the earth like smoke rises from a flame.
> 
> Muted words whisper in the heavy air. Skeletal limbs extend and sway, their wooden fingers caress the wind, searching for fear.
> ...











...
....
......
:clap


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

For people wanting to post writing online: I've used Scribophile in the past. I found it to be a massive upgrade on the anarchy of fictionpress.

Congrats on your first novel in progress, Hopeless! I'm actually in the same boat. I've written multiple novels for fun in the past, but I'm finally getting my act together and deciding "Hey, I should try to make money off this." I'm only about 5 chapters and 14,000 words in, but hey, every step counts. At least I'm past the planning stage, which took a whileeeeee.

If people are looking to submit to publishers, I might recommend trying to find a literary agent. Like in anything doing your homework is key, but it seems to me like an easier (and more secure) way to break into the industry. When I finish my novel-in-progress and complete my editing and review rounds, I'm going to try and find an agent who can hook into the publishing scene for me. Less cut of the proceeds that way if it makes $$$, but as a newcomer to the publishing market, I figure getting my feet wet is more important.
​


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## The Lonely Brain (Apr 4, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> My book is about these college girls who find an ancient Artificial Intelligence. After bonding with it, and getting in trouble with the government, they try to prove that the AI should be granted human rights. In doing so, they uncover the disturbing secrets of their country's past.


Oh cool that sounds really interesting. 

Hey, was anyone ever on ScriptFrenzy? I think I died a little inside when they closed up shop. :| Oh well, I guess there's still NaNoWriMo.


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## Terranaut (Jul 11, 2013)

I had a vision that started in my 30's to create the first work of constructively radical philosophy directly into some kind of non-linear digital construct rather than linear book where instead of just "reading" this linear stream of new thought on how the nuances of the so-called "digital revolution" could remain dynamic and responsive to individual inquiry as opposed to being "streamed" in an old medium--a book--which I wanted to supplant. I know it to be a genius concept that would make me a ground-breaker who illuminates implications that may go unnoticed and un-utilized at great expense for decades just as they already have, but you can't choose your family origin (where you can meet with little more than poverty and ignorance) or even choose the chemistry your born with that shapes your identity and self discipline. So, if I had some breaks and the discipline I knw exactly where this work of philosophy I call "facilitarianism" would drive massive reforms and create a sustainable progress engine that would provide jobs and careers for huge numbers of people. But my failure to achieve those breaks--which need artists to help illustrate concepts to show possible investors, I have come to the conclusion that I may just have to write a book.

I wrote the outline the other day. It's based on a true story. If it weren't true people would think that's stretching possibility a bit too far. It did happen though and I think it has screen potential because it is true and centers around the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall and the End of the Cold War where anything in the world was possible for short time before Dick Cheney talked his boss old man Bush into invading Iraq and Panama--the actions the US took which set the stage for the two World Trade Center attacks and the wars that followed--one of which was wrong for which heads should have rolled.


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## laura024 (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm excited for NaNoWriMo. I'm writing a young adult novel.


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## Samtrix (Aug 22, 2011)

I submitted to 100storyword.org about a week ago. It's non-paying, but still would be nice to get something published.
Does anyone else use Scrivener? I'm on the trial version and thinking of buying it. It really helps organize your projects.
Oh, and the Snowflake Method is interesting too. I've gotten a ton of useful info on that site.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Sadly i do not write my literature in English, so there are fewer choices for being published... (although i guess i like the language i write in, anyway).

@TheHopeless:


The short novella i sent to the publishing house is about a person who is sunk into a 5-day long hallucination, thinking he has arrived at a different country and found a job and a new life-start there. In reality he is still in his own country, but at least he managed to get out of the dangerous delusion, and the future looks better in the end of the story


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Lev said:


> I decided to print out my first draft to make it easier to make notes for when I start editing and revising. The feel though... Having that weight in your hands and staring at the pages before you and knowing you made that... That is something.
> I mean to do at least one rewrite and one round of editing before trying to submit it anywhere. Maybe I'll end up having to self-publish too though.


Yeah, printing out your work is good because you notice mistakes that you may gloss over on the screen. Might I suggest using 4 drafts? Basically you do the 1st Draft, 2nd Draft, Beta Readers, 3rd Draft, More Beta Readers, 4th Draft, Even More Beta readers, 5th Draft. That is my plan for editing my book. I might even do a 6th draft just to make sure everything is as perfect as possible.

*Also, just as a note: I'm willing to beta read anyone's work if you're willing to do the same for mine.*



hmweasley said:


> I'm working on a story right now that I'm planning on being a series. I want it to be a series of novels, but right now the first one is more like a novella than a novel. I'm having a hard time expanding it.


Ooh sounds fun! I feel like I would be good at doing a series, just because I can get really attached to my characters. It's hard to let them go haha. Care to share a summary with us?



ASB20 said:


> Congrats on your first novel in progress, Hopeless! I'm actually in the same boat. I've written multiple novels for fun in the past, but I'm finally getting my act together and deciding "Hey, I should try to make money off this." I'm only about 5 chapters and 14,000 words in, but hey, every step counts. At least I'm past the planning stage, which took a whileeeeee.
> 
> If people are looking to submit to publishers, I might recommend trying to find a literary agent. Like in anything doing your homework is key, but it seems to me like an easier (and more secure) way to break into the industry. When I finish my novel-in-progress and complete my editing and review rounds, I'm going to try and find an agent who can hook into the publishing scene for me. Less cut of the proceeds that way if it makes $$$, but as a newcomer to the publishing market, I figure getting my feet wet is more important.​


Thank you thank you thank you! I honestly was never sure if I should get a literary agent, but everything you said is true! Honestly, I feel kind of stupid for thinking that I could ever get my book published without an agent. I don't have a big online presence, and I've never had my work published in anything before.



Mersault said:


> Sadly i do not write my literature in English, so there are fewer choices for being published... (although i guess i like the language i write in, anyway).
> 
> The short novella i sent to the publishing house is about a person who is sunk into a 5-day long hallucination, thinking he has arrived at a different country and found a job and a new life-start there. In reality he is still in his own country, but at least he managed to get out of the dangerous delusion, and the future looks better in the end of the story


Aw, what language do you write in? It's too bad you don't write in English, your novella sounds like a fun read.


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## minimized (Nov 17, 2007)

I try to write, I'm just not very good at it yet. I couldn't imagine being published...


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

minimized said:


> I try to write, I'm just not very good at it yet. I couldn't imagine being published...


All it takes is practice and dedication. Really, you can become the best writer who's ever lived if you put in those two efforts.

When I started writing creatively 8 years ago, I _sucked_. I could structure a sentence, but that was about it. My plots were rehashed garbage, my characters were cookie-cutter and one-dimensional, and my imagery and detail was sub-par.

But I pushed on. I kept at it, found a few good writing communities (including one by complete accident that really sent me ahead and got me to where I am today) and worked on the craft. I grew better at developing stories, and I honed in particularly on dialogue and characterization as my marks. I got good enough where my creative writing professor in college pointed out my dialogue as solid (admittedly, it was an elective, not like I was majoring in it...)

It ain't just me, though. Anybody can do that. I wouldn't have gotten there if I hadn't practiced and written like crazy. Maybe it took 8 years for me to feel confident enough to begin a novel for actual marketability, but hey, that's time that allowed me to get better, slowly but surely. It's a goal anyone can achieve. You certainly can. I'd love to read a small slice of what you're capable of.

Also, I'll double down on Hopeless's promise: I'll beta-read too if anyone wants me to and is looking for that.


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## minimized (Nov 17, 2007)

ASB20 said:


> All it takes is practice and dedication. Really, you can become the best writer who's ever lived if you put in those two efforts.
> 
> When I started writing creatively 8 years ago, I _sucked_. I could structure a sentence, but that was about it. My plots were rehashed garbage, my characters were cookie-cutter and one-dimensional, and my imagery and detail was sub-par.
> 
> ...


Yeah I struggle with all of those. I just love trying to write a piece of dialogue and approximating what normal people would say. And trying to come up with unique and interesting imagery. Not to mention coming up with ideas in the first place.

The only thing is that I have a hard time sharing, unless forced to do so. I probably haven't let anyone read since school, except maybe once. That can't be good


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

> what language do you write in?


I write in a most Byzantine Greek 

(well, i did translate a very short, published story of mine to English sometime ago, you can have a look here if you wish: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f37/gray-walls-one-of-my-short-stories-translated-437001/ )


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

minimized said:


> Yeah I struggle with all of those. I just love trying to write a piece of dialogue and approximating what normal people would say. And trying to come up with unique and interesting imagery. Not to mention coming up with ideas in the first place.
> 
> The only thing is that I have a hard time sharing, unless forced to do so. I probably haven't let anyone read since school, except maybe once. That can't be good


Try talking out loud to yourself. I know, it sounds weird but just do it. Act like your characters and talk out loud, as them. Have a conversation with yourself, pretending to be your characters. It's totally fine to act out your characters, and it can really help you learn to write dialogue. If people overhear you just be honest and tell them you have schizophrenia... I mean tell them that you're trying to improve your creative writing.


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## nullptr (Sep 21, 2012)

TheHopeless said:


> > Obscure, hipstery coffee shop? Check.
> > WI-FI and laptops ready to use? Check.
> > Works in progress to talk about? Check.
> 
> ...


Im not really a writer but that coffee shop looks great and there's WIFI!, I want to join.


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## minimized (Nov 17, 2007)

TheHopeless said:


> Try talking out loud to yourself. I know, it sounds weird but just do it. Act like your characters and talk out loud, as them. Have a conversation with yourself, pretending to be your characters. It's totally fine to act out your characters, and it can really help you learn to write dialogue. If people overhear you just be honest and tell them you have schizophrenia... I mean tell them that you're trying to improve your creative writing.


Oh, I have to get into the habit of doing that. I'll be sure to be as disturbing as possible. :twisted


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Mersault said:


> I write in a most Byzantine Greek
> 
> (well, i did translate a very short, published story of mine to English sometime ago, you can have a look here if you wish: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f37/gray-walls-one-of-my-short-stories-translated-437001/ )


Awesome story!  I'll go more in depth about my thoughts later.

This post is technically a bump. Where'd everybody go :O


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks, glad you liked it


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

galacticsenator said:


> Im not really a writer but that coffee shop looks great and there's WIFI!, I want to join.


Haha. Hey if you like reading or just hanging out with writers that's cool


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> Ooh sounds fun! I feel like I would be good at doing a series, just because I can get really attached to my characters. It's hard to let them go haha. Care to share a summary with us?


As of right now I've been changing the specifics around quite a lot, but here's the basic plot: The main character is heir to what is called the Society, which is basically the government of the magical beings. The government has always favored witches over other magical beings, and they run the government. However, someone within the Society is strongly against other magical beings, and he is working to take away all of the rights and such that they do have. The main character and her friends are working against that. It's still changing around so much that I feel as if the plot may be completely different by the time I'm done though.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> This post is technically a bump. Where'd everybody go :O


I'm sorry! D: I thought I could sneak off for a few days and no one would notice.



hmweasley said:


> Congratulations on your novel Lev. I can't imagine actually holding a "real" (as opposed to just of a printer) copy something that I wrote in my hands. That has to be an amazing feeling.
> 
> I'm working on a story right now that I'm planning on being a series. I want it to be a series of novels, but right now the first one is more like a novella than a novel. I'm having a hard time expanding it. I think I'm going to go ahead with the rest of my ideas for the series and then either go back and expand from there or combine them so it's less books than I had originally planned. I'm not sure yet.


It's still little more than a printer copy, but I'm happy nonetheless. XD

I think that's the right approach. I would advise against expanding just for length. If you can find interesting avenues you haven't explored yet (a cool subplot, character development, etcetera), then of course you should add that in, but if you're padding just for the word count, it will be obvious to the reader too. Maybe your series could make one cool novel instead.



TheHopeless said:


> Yeah, printing out your work is good because you notice mistakes that you may gloss over on the screen. Might I suggest using 4 drafts? Basically you do the 1st Draft, 2nd Draft, Beta Readers, 3rd Draft, More Beta Readers, 4th Draft, Even More Beta readers, 5th Draft. That is my plan for editing my book. I might even do a 6th draft just to make sure everything is as perfect as possible.


You might suggest, but I wish you wouldn't. The only way I got through my first draft was by deluding myself into thinking that one draft could be enough for at least half of the way through. I mean to do a second draft sometime after NaNo, then I'll find beta readers, and then I'll do another draft/round of editing. I'm a perfectionist, so trust me when I say that no editor or agent will lay eyes on it before I feel it's the best I can make it. If that does take additional drafts, I'll do additional drafts, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.


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## arm08139914 (Sep 4, 2013)

Hi, everybody!

I've just found this thread, and I'm so glad that I have. I am a writer, or at the very least an attempting one. I've done creative writing at Uni, and I'm going to be doing more once I reach the final level of my degree. Anyway, I just wanted to jump in and say that it's great seeing so many people are this passionate about writing.

My work tends to vary, but I find myself working a lot in script form. I have a ridiculous love for cinema, and comic books too, so this is where my ideas wander. I do try and write prose as well, though. I feel I need to exercise the aspects other than dialogue. When I handed in my first writing assingment my tutor said it was like a badly reformatted script, which I suppose it was in many regards. Though I've definitely found myself more able to move between formats and keep the styles similar enough to feel like my writing, yet adapted enough to be able to explore the tools that different methods can afford you.

I'm incapable of writing anything brief, as you can see. Hehe. I do what Minimized appears to. I focus on the dialogue, and I personally find that once I can get the voice of the main character, narrator, etc., nailed down, I find the rest of the work can flow a lot more naturally and the story comes more out of the characters than whatever scenario I've invented.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

I do not like to impose plots on my characters. I prefer to set a bunch of them loose in a very fluid environment and have their interactions amongst themselves and with the setting shape the world and story. I find it makes everything so much more credible and organic when things happen because of the forces at work instead of because the plot said so.



Mersault said:


> (well, i did translate a very short, published story of mine to English sometime ago, you can have a look here if you wish: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f37/gray-walls-one-of-my-short-stories-translated-437001/ )


I enjoyed your story, Mersault. It's intriguing and thought-provoking, and I like the imagery. I'm not surprised to know it was published. There are some issues with the translation, of course. I had not realized you were not a native speaker before now. I think if you cared to, you could polish your English prose to a point where it would not be so noticeable. Of course, you might just as well not bother and go on publishing in Greek while I look on in envy.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks, glad you liked it 

I doubt i could translate my own works to English, although i graduated from an English university (uni of Essex, my degree is just a BA in Philosophy).

I think i can make it here, and i am obviously a lot more able to write as i want to in my own native language...

ps: And don't look in envy, cause you never know how your own writing will be in the future. Good luck with that, again


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Lev said:


> I think that's the right approach. I would advise against expanding just for length. If you can find interesting avenues you haven't explored yet (a cool subplot, character development, etcetera), then of course you should add that in, but if you're padding just for the word count, it will be obvious to the reader too. Maybe your series could make one cool novel instead.


That's how I feel as well. However, I'm not really happy with the pacing right now, so I think combining what I had originally planned as separate parts of the series is what is best. I think that would help the pacing and make it longer without adding anything that wasn't planned before.


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## ourwater (Jun 2, 2012)

Can we post pictures to go along with our stories? IE:

20131017_011201 by trulietrice, on Flickr

20131017_011317 by trulietrice, on Flickr


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

I don't see why not.  I enjoyed Let The Right One In. Maybe I'll see about taking a picture of my novel.



Mersault said:


> Thanks, glad you liked it
> 
> I doubt i could translate my own works to English, although i graduated from an English university (uni of Essex, my degree is just a BA in Philosophy).
> 
> ...


When I think about it, I guess I would not want to translate my own work either... Well, I'm glad you translated the one. 
And no, I commit to my emotional states. I will look on in envy until I have published something. 
Of course, I am joking... mostly.



hmweasley said:


> That's how I feel as well. However, I'm not really happy with the pacing right now, so I think combining what I had originally planned as separate parts of the series is what is best. I think that would help the pacing and make it longer without adding anything that wasn't planned before.


I guess you'll just have to see how it turns out. It's important to have enough going on as well as to give what's going on enough room to breathe.
I'm starting to think that it's best not to plan stories as series. If you pace your story well, whatever length it comes to naturally is the best length for it. You can always split it up when you're doing a second draft and you know exactly what you're working with.


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## ourwater (Jun 2, 2012)




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## Samtrix (Aug 22, 2011)

^ So what are these pictures associated with?


I wrote what was supposed to be a proposal, but seems like a blurb for the back of the book. I'll probably regret this, but I'm posting it. Be gentle :um

Home. An island you have the privilege to call Home. An island that knows you as well as you know it; the depth of every stream, the inhabitants of every tree, the secrets of every valley, the majestic view of every hill. The wildlife your siblings, the plants your sustenance, your medicine. Like a terrestrial Mother who bore you.
Your clan has known no other Mother for countless generations. Thoughts of other lands, other destinations vanished immediately once they set foot in her beauty. The knowledge -the very thought- of seafaring was abandoned. Who would ever leave such a wondrous, bountiful Home?
But a mother, even a terrestrial one, cannot sustain her children forever. The trees bear few fruit, meager crops sprout from her once-fertile soil, the animals grow feeble. Fewer offspring greet the spring sun, and fewer still survive to feel autumn breeze.
Nuala, the chief’s too-young daughter makes it her quest to save her clan. But how can a bold, stubborn girl save her clan when she doesn’t even know who she is, when no one will let her grow up, a girl who gets in her own way? Can a lost girl save her clan from losing their cherished Home, when Nature herself is the challenger?


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hey Samtrix,

Intriguing premise. I like that you've taken a seriously original route in your story. I'm the type who can fall into tropes if I'm not careful, so it's good to see fresh ideas.

I'd recommend one thing: If you're looking for a first impression, perhaps try some more casual, easier-to-digest diction. I know, I just used the word diction, but simplicity can count big time in something like a back-of-book blurb, where it's more about marketing and style than substance. I save my real colorful stuff for the substance stuff, and if I'm trying to draw eyes, I try to keep it simple with a few buzz words that can count. It's more advertising than storytelling in such a thing.

A bit of a lowest-common-denominator thing, but hey, if it gets readership...


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Sorry for the double post, but I thought it'd be better as a separate post here.

Wanted to ask a question: How soon do people think books should get into the "action", per se? Ie, a driving point, something to really hook people in? Dan Brown (blech, but hey, he sells), for instance, shoots out the prologue with a dramatic scene, whereas some books take a few chapters to warm things up.

I ask because it seems as if the trend leans towards the former these days. I, on the other hand, prefer to let the first chapter set the stage and build events up slowly. Don't know if that's still looked on nicely in this day and age.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

Personally, I don't like being "thrown off a cliff" with the protagonist in the first chapter, but neither do I enjoy following the hero through a completely average day in their average life internally narrating what bits of world-building the writer considers relevant before the plot finally drops in.
I don't think there's a golden rule. What matters is that the reader is engaged and invested. There are effective and quick ways to show your protagonist is a person, not just a guy chasing another guy, or firing a gun at some other people. If it fits into the tone, pace, and story to have action early on, then I take no issue with that - as long as I've been given enough reason to care about what's happening. If it benefits a story to take more time to set up, then by all means, it should take more time. There are ways to engage a reader without gunfire and explosions. It's all about execution.


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## arm08139914 (Sep 4, 2013)

Yeah, I totally agree with Lev, that it does vary greatly on the story itself. I find that I like to hint, maybe even a little strongly, at the end of a first chapter. Y'know, like the way a pilot for a TV show or cliffhanger of a first issue of a comic, will just hit you with that hook that will want you to come back/keep going. They're all the same thing, really; The first bite that wants to persuade you to take another.

Sometimes I think a good tool for combining the two, is having a character in a chase, or whatever, and use their inner monologue to go back to the scene that leads up to it, or even how the character got into the type of lifestyle that would lead to these sorts of events. It doesn't always work, but if you can't decide between the two, it can work well to try and blend the two that way.


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## Pennywise (Aug 18, 2011)

Mersault said:


> Good luck with your novel (and other people's works too)
> 
> Yesterday i got news of my 19th printed short story in a lit magazine
> 
> (still no final reply on my novel being examined for a month now by a publishing house, though...).


Good for you on your 19th submission:clap! What is this magazine called, I may have seen something of yours published.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks 

I doubt you would have seen any of it, given it is not in English


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

I started writing a new short story tonight. Wrote the first 4 pages of it, and i suppose it will get to 10 pages or a bit more in the end which i hope will be reached tomorrow 

The story is a bit more ominous than my usual stuff. I do write about murder from time to time (i think that only two stories of mine with the narrator murdering someone have been published), but hadn't done so in a while. This time the story is a bit more complicated, given that the split-self of the narrator commits some sort of ritual decapitation in the style of the ancient followers of the god Dionysus. The narrator later on finds out, and seems to accept it as needed, in general.

The mood of the story is, obviously, very bleak. However it is not clear what is going on, until the end (not written yet). It is placed on a university, the narrator is still a student there. The story is primarily about isolation, and the undercurrent of disgust with others which leads to a murderous game between the narrator and his split personality.

I think it will be quite good in the end. Thankfully by now i like almost everything i finish writing, and tend to finish two short stories each week (in total something like 15 pages A4).


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## Samtrix (Aug 22, 2011)

ASB20, thanks for the input. I'm not really sure I'd use this for a blurb, but it got me out of a bit of a block and helped me focus on my main plot. What I don't like about it, is it only covers my main plot and one character. I started out as a proposal based on an example I found online, and it kinda got away from me, in a good way, I think...I hope.

As for your question, I have no useful advice (being unpublished and not even through my own first chapter yet), so I'd refer to this article I found. http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/February4.txt (Part 4: Marketing a Killer First Chapter). I've been reading this guy's ezines are they're very helpful, he's the author of Writing Fiction for Dummies.
Basically, whatever best sets the stage, pacing, and mood of the rest of the book. You can take a slow pace, as long as you have some hooks to keep the reader engaged until the point where they've committed to reading the entire book.


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## minimized (Nov 17, 2007)

Does anyone else hate rereading what they've written? I'm on my nth read-through of my xth draft of my labor of love (or insanity) and it's such a drag, lol.

I understand "cutting your darlings" is the hardest part, but I'm always concerned about length too.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

minimized said:


> Does anyone else hate rereading what they've written? I'm on my nth read-through of my xth draft of my labor of love (or insanity) and it's such a drag, lol.
> 
> I understand "cutting your darlings" is the hardest part, but I'm always concerned about length too.


I hate re-reading what I've written because it makes me realize how many mistakes are in my writing and it makes me feel like a poor writer. haha

--
Hmm... While we're on the subject of starting out out a book... To anyone who wants to answer: What do you think about a book that starts with the main character feeling betrayed by her best friend after they get into a huge argument, and then she tries to drop things off with her friend. However, some of the specifics of the cause of the argument aren't revealed immediately, the readers are given bits and pieces over time.

I like to reveal things piece by piece so I plan on doing this for the first few chapters of my book:
1) Show the main characters get into an argument, with one of them wanting to end their friendship (but deep down she doesn't want to)
2) Show what their friendship meant by having them think about each other a lot while going about their lives, while also briefly showing the struggles they usually face (e.g., one of them is an insecure artist with social anxiety issues who isolates herself from everyone).
3) Then they come together by coincidence, and slightly sort out their problems while the main plot comes into fruition.

For the record my book is a sci-fi book with MUCH more emphasis on the character development than the actual sci-fi stuff. (So it's more light sci-fi). It's hard to balance making the readers care about the characters while also making the beginning fast-paced enough so they don't get bored.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

So. NaNoWriMo starts tomorrow.
Any other takers or am I the only one mad enough?



TheHopeless said:


> Hmm... While we're on the subject of starting out out a book... To anyone who wants to answer: What do you think about a book that starts with the main character feeling betrayed by her best friend after they get into a huge argument, and then she tries to drop things off with her friend. However, some of the specifics of the cause of the argument aren't revealed immediately, the readers are given bits and pieces over time.
> 
> I like to reveal things piece by piece so I plan on doing this for the first few chapters of my book:
> 1) Show the main characters get into an argument, with one of them wanting to end their friendship (but deep down she doesn't want to)
> ...


I don't think there's any issue with keeping information from the reader to be revealed at a later stage. All you need to make sure of is that it doesn't feel artificial. If one (or both) of the characters is constantly brooding over how they wish they could only resolve "that one thing", it would not seem right that the reader needs to sit and wait to learn what "that one thing" is. Since you say you mean to work things out in the first couple of chapters, I don't think it should be a problem, and it might actually feel more natural that the reader only finds out what the issue was when amends are being made. (After all, having characters spout all necessary exposition during an argument can feel very artificial too.)

My work is also very character-focused. Therefore I favour plots that are character-driven. If the plot and the characters are strongly connected, there's no need to choose between character development and moving the story forward, because character development moves the story forward, or provides an interesting hindrance (or vice versa).


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Lev said:


> So. NaNoWriMo starts tomorrow.
> Any other takers or am I the only one mad enough?


I've wanted to do NaNoWriMo for years now just to see if I could accomplish it, but it's just never a good time for me. Like this year I'm already in the middle of writing something right now, and I'm not going to push that aside to start something new for NaNoWriMo. I really hope I can do it some year just to see what the experience is like.


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Meant to say thanks for the feedback earlier, guys - it's always great to get sound input like that, and I've taken your views to heart in how I'm approaching what I'm currently writing. 

I'm quasi-doing NaNoWriMo by trying to get 50,000 words out on the current novel I'm writing, although I've already started it (and backspaced even more of it...) Knowing me, I'll write 50,000 words, delete 30,000, and end up with 20k by the end of November. 'Dat editing process.


@Hopeless: Sounds a bit like Memento or Beyond: Two Souls...the sort of in media res type of opening. I think cultivating mystery in writing, even if the book isn't a mystery piece per se, is good to keep the reader guessing and questioning what'll happen next. Sounds like you have your bases covered there with the bit-by-bit reveal.

As far as caring about the characters goes...I figure just give them strong motivations and believable personalities, hopes, dreams, strengths, and flaws. Readers filter to characters as they may, and Lev's strategy of character-driven plots as well I think is a good way to connect the reader with characters too. 

I write in the first-person usually, so I feel that also helps connect readers with characters by allowing them to "step into the shoes" of the narrator somewhat. Not a style for everyone, though, something I definitely understand.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Lev said:


> So. NaNoWriMo starts tomorrow.
> Any other takers or am I the only one mad enough?


I think I'm doing it, whether it actually gets under way or just ends up as 100 thousand words of notes again like last year is another matter. D: Think I'll just dive in with next to know planning and see how it goes. It'll be a mess, but it's something I guess. I did it in 2008 and got to about 47k which was a bummer so I've got to actually win at some point.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

I survived my first day. ._.
My inner editor has been throwing a tantrum, but I've managed to ignore it so far...
Good luck to anyone who's even just sort of doing NaNo. If anyone joins the site and is looking for an equally socially inept writing buddy: I wouldn't mind some. Shoot me a private message for my name on there (or send me yours).



hmweasley said:


> I've wanted to do NaNoWriMo for years now just to see if I could accomplish it, but it's just never a good time for me. Like this year I'm already in the middle of writing something right now, and I'm not going to push that aside to start something new for NaNoWriMo. I really hope I can do it some year just to see what the experience is like.


Yeah, I definitely understand. My timing was just right for this one: I finished my previous story at the start of October. You could consider doing what ASB20 is and try to write 50,000 words (or some other significant amount) on your current work. You can actually join in NaNoWriMo as a NaNo rebel using your own terms if you're interested in the experience.



Persephone The Dread said:


> I think I'm doing it, whether it actually gets under way or just ends up as 100 thousand words of notes again like last year is another matter. D: Think I'll just dive in with next to know planning and see how it goes. It'll be a mess, but it's something I guess. I did it in 2008 and got to about 47k which was a bummer so I've got to actually win at some point.


Ouch, that must be frustrating.
Is NaNoWriMo ever going to result in anything other than a mess? I'm asking because I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel right now. D:


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Lev said:


> Ouch, that must be frustrating.
> Is NaNoWriMo ever going to result in anything other than a mess? I'm asking because I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel right now. D:


I've always thought of it as an opportunity to try and get out 50,000 words of something no matter how chaotic and not to worry about that too much. Then when the months over you can finish it (if it's longer than 50k), tweak and rewrite bits as necessary.

I've just got started and written 222 on mine, but now I have to go cook and stuff. Only 49778 words left to go lol! D: I'll have to pick up the speed a bit.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Lev said:


> Yeah, I definitely understand. My timing was just right for this one: I finished my previous story at the start of October. You could consider doing what ASB20 is and try to write 50,000 words (or some other significant amount) on your current work. You can actually join in NaNoWriMo as a NaNo rebel using your own terms if you're interested in the experience.


Yeah, I've heard of the rebel thing before, and I think it's definitely something I might do in the future. I should probably have done it this month or should still do it. Maybe I will sign up for it in the next couple days.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

Well, a week of NaNoWriMo and I'm still alive...
How is everyone doing on their projects (NaNo or not)?


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## licorice (Oct 5, 2013)

Lev said:


> Well, a week of NaNoWriMo and I'm still alive...
> How is everyone doing on their projects (NaNo or not)?


12k in on NaNoWriMo. I seem to be the only one not panicking...


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

licorice said:


> 12k in on NaNoWriMo. I seem to be the only one not panicking...


Is that so? I haven't been keeping track of the forums much. I wouldn't say I'm panicking, but I am paranoid of falling behind and losing motivation, so I've been working ahead as much as I can.

What are you writing?


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## licorice (Oct 5, 2013)

Lev said:


> Is that so? I haven't been keeping track of the forums much. I wouldn't say I'm panicking, but I am paranoid of falling behind and losing motivation, so I've been working ahead as much as I can.
> 
> What are you writing?


Planning ahead is always good. Are you able to break out of blocks quickly?

I'm writing some alternative pirate adventure. "Life, like setting sail, often requires a guiding light to make it to the other side."


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

licorice said:


> Planning ahead is always good. Are you able to break out of blocks quickly?
> 
> I'm writing some alternative pirate adventure. "Life, like setting sail, often requires a guiding light to make it to the other side."


I did most of my planning before November. Now I'm just writing ahead in the event that I'll run into a day I can't get anything done at all.
Honestly, I don't know. I'm working through a bit of one right now. If I know what I'm writing and it's just the how that eludes me, I just power on through. If I don't know what to write, it can take a while, though I try to work through those as well. So far I'd planned what I was writing, so I haven't run into the latter problem yet. Are you?

What's it about (if you don't mind telling)?


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## licorice (Oct 5, 2013)

Lev said:


> I did most of my planning before November. Now I'm just writing ahead in the event that I'll run into a day I can't get anything done at all.
> Honestly, I don't know. I'm working through a bit of one right now. If I know what I'm writing and it's just the how that eludes me, I just power on through. If I don't know what to write, it can take a while, though I try to work through those as well. So far I'd planned what I was writing, so I haven't run into the latter problem yet. Are you?
> 
> What's it about (if you don't mind telling)?


Thanksgiving is coming up, so there may be a few such days. Who's going to get much done with a stomach full of turkey and family swarming the house?

I've found that a trail of "why" often helps break through a block. If I can get the motivations, background, and such listed it can clear things up enough to keep going. It's a fantastic brainstorming tool, too.

The details are a secret, sorry!


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

I am doing freakin' terribly on my progress since November kicked off. I've written about 4k words in eight days.

Granted, a good deal of free time did not go to writing and instead went to playing Assassin's Creed, which I've since finished and should be able to return to writing now...

Since I'm writing on a work-in-progress and not a new story, I have all my planning done and ready to be just be laid out. On the other hand, I always find new ways to turn a phrase or plot element when I'm actually chucking words down, which slows me down and makes me think about things for a while.

This weekend I just need to supercruise on a writing binge and not do something like watch football for 12 hours straight.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

ASB20 said:


> I am doing freakin' terribly on my progress since November kicked off. I've written about 4k words in eight days.
> 
> Granted, a good deal of free time did not go to writing and instead went to playing Assassin's Creed, which I've since finished and should be able to return to writing now...
> 
> ...


Yup same, about 4k words. Damn.


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## ourwater (Jun 2, 2012)

My printer ribbon shipped.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

I think I'm experiencing a bit of a drop in inspiration and motivation, but so far I've been managing to stay on track. I'm not American, so I won't have to deal with Thanksgiving, but I do have my birthday near the end of this month.

I'm really curious as to what everyone is writing. It seems a lot of writers don't like to share their ideas though. I actually went to my local NaNoWriMo kick-off, which was a bit of a triumph over my social anxiety, but it just made me not want to go to any future events.
Maybe I talked to the wrong people or maybe I just suck at talking to them, but it seemed like no one was willing to reveal more than the most basic idea of what they were going to write, and often no more than the genre.

Here's a question for everyone: are you comfortable sharing your ideas? In what detail? Are you afraid of someone taking them?


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lev said:


> I think I'm experiencing a bit of a drop in inspiration and motivation, but so far I've been managing to stay on track. I'm not American, so I won't have to deal with Thanksgiving, but I do have my birthday near the end of this month.
> 
> I'm really curious as to what everyone is writing. It seems a lot of writers don't like to share their ideas though. I actually went to my local NaNoWriMo kick-off, which was a bit of a triumph over my social anxiety, but it just made me not want to go to any future events.
> Maybe I talked to the wrong people or maybe I just suck at talking to them, but it seemed like no one was willing to reveal more than the most basic idea of what they were going to write, and often no more than the genre.
> ...


Eh, depends how much of the story. I'm comfortable describing some details, although not a point-by-point thing, especially since I'm trying to push for publication.

But the gist, yeah, if anybody wants to hear it.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

ASB20 said:


> Eh, depends how much of the story. I'm comfortable describing some details, although not a point-by-point thing, especially since I'm trying to push for publication.
> 
> But the gist, yeah, if anybody wants to hear it.


I think it'd be great to hear what you're working on.


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm writing a YA thriller/romance/political-esque historical novel set in Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade. I'm a history buff, so it fell right up my alley (although I originally set it in Pompeii before Vesuvius blew, but decided that was a bit dry). 

It's a slightly fictionalized version of the Seige and Sack of Constantinople from 1203-1204, but the gist is that a wealthy merchant in the city begins collaborating with Alexios IV (he who essentially instigated the city's fall in 1204 due to his deal with the Crusaders) to aid the Crusader army's assault and back-stab the current Byzantine administration.

The merchant's daughter, the story's protagonist and somewhat of a socialite in Byzantine society, catches word of this. Her attempts to blow the whistle on the deal don't go exactly according to plan (Alexios III's administration in my account isn't nice, either). She falls in with a group of citizens and disgruntled Imperial soldiers who are covertly supporting Isaac II - the recently deposed emperor now imprisoned (who a citizen group did indeed break from prison in July 1203 during the first Crusader siege). As she learns about the political machinations and overall **** going down in Constantinople, she gets good with one young soldier who has his own misgivings about things.

Through it, I'm trying to explore more modern ideas in a historical setting, such as valuing wealth and temporary power and greed versus ideas of the greater good, and how diversity (Constantinople had a pretty decently-sized Muslim population by this time in addition to being on the border of Europe and Asia while also being the center of the Eastern Orthodox Church) faces off in the face of ideological zealotry (the Crusaders).

Plus, there's kissing and Greek fire in the same story.


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## Robodontopus (Apr 6, 2011)

Hey guys, I just started writing prose for the first time recently, and I was wondering if anyone knew any good resources for a beginning writer? Any specific book or anything online that helped? I don't really have the money to take classes right now...

And another question I had: has anyone had the problem where you think you want to write a certain kind of book, like science fiction or fantasy for instance, and you have really cool characters that fit inside those worlds, but when you go to write it you can't get emotionally invested in those characters because you can't relate to them at all?


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## ourwater (Jun 2, 2012)

Some of my writing is on a USB flash drive labeled "Portable Records". I'm handwritten copying. 

20000109_083035 by trulietrice, on Flickr


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

ASB20 said:


> I'm writing a YA thriller/romance/political-esque historical novel set in Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade. I'm a history buff, so it fell right up my alley (although I originally set it in Pompeii before Vesuvius blew, but decided that was a bit dry).


It's a shame you decided against Pompeii; I have a big soft spot for Ancient Greece and Rome.
It sounds like a cool concept. I always enjoy stories that show far-off historical events through a more personal set of eyes (or at least when they do it well).
Also, Greek fire is always a plus.

What makes it a thriller?



Robodontopus said:


> Hey guys, I just started writing prose for the first time recently, and I was wondering if anyone knew any good resources for a beginning writer? Any specific book or anything online that helped? I don't really have the money to take classes right now...
> 
> And another question I had: has anyone had the problem where you think you want to write a certain kind of book, like science fiction or fantasy for instance, and you have really cool characters that fit inside those worlds, but when you go to write it you can't get emotionally invested in those characters because you can't relate to them at all?


This site has free lectures by Brandon Sanderson that I quite enjoyed (and that are particularly useful if you're looking to get into fantasy or sci-fi): www.writeaboutdragons.com
I watched the 2012 ones; you can find those in the archives. I haven't had time to get around to the 2013 lectures yet, but I imagine those are good too.
What I enjoy about them is that they mostly just promote good writing habits and finding your own style and do not push one way of writing over another.

As for your second question: make sure you make your characters people first and not just a set of cool powers or a couple of extra limbs. You might want to decide against making an elf or alien your protagonist. Even if you can get inside their heads, a reader may not.
Really think about what effects living in that fantasy or sci-fi world would have on a person (and try to relate otherworldly experiences to ones in real life), but also consider how they would act in completely mundane situations. Do they have breakfast? What's their relationship to their parents? There are always some things that haven't changed.


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## licorice (Oct 5, 2013)

Robodontopus said:


> Hey guys, I just started writing prose for the first time recently, and I was wondering if anyone knew any good resources for a beginning writer? Any specific book or anything online that helped? I don't really have the money to take classes right now...
> 
> And another question I had: has anyone had the problem where you think you want to write a certain kind of book, like science fiction or fantasy for instance, and you have really cool characters that fit inside those worlds, but when you go to write it you can't get emotionally invested in those characters because you can't relate to them at all?


You don't need classes...

Read a lot and write a lot, looking for the good and the bad. Develop an intuition for how to create and spot it (and some of it is opinion). Don't ever ask anyone else to tell you what to write or whether or not you should write something, or you're digging your own grave by letting your intuition and your value judgments atrophy. Blood, sweat, and tears with no shortcuts.

There's plenty to read online free if you want to hear some frameworks and theories.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

In my view, in the end, if one knows (to a degree) how he feels and what thoughts he has and possibly where they may lead, he already can write as well as he can 

A nice quote by Fernando Pessoa:

"The good poet writes as he feels. The average poet writes as he thinks he is feeling. And the bad poet writes as he thinks he should be feeling".


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lev said:


> It's a shame you decided against Pompeii; I have a big soft spot for Ancient Greece and Rome.
> It sounds like a cool concept. I always enjoy stories that show far-off historical events through a more personal set of eyes (or at least when they do it well).
> Also, Greek fire is always a plus.
> 
> What makes it a thriller?


Ah, I love Rome as well, but Pompeii lacked the necessary "oomph" of a mixture of civil and sociopolitical volatility that I wanted. I considered a few other settings, but the Fourth Crusade (and the Crusades in general, but this had the best impact point outside of Jerusalem, which I didn't want to touch) had the right blend of diversity, uneasiness, and change in the air. Istanbul's the gateway to Europe and Asia even today, and back then as Constantinople, it's amazingly interesting. With the zealous Crusaders backed by Rome (and more importantly to the story and history, Venice), it's fun as heck for the story's purposes.

It's a thriller in parts. I hate to categorize it in overly general terms, but it has its peaks and valleys in pacing. Some parts it involves secret back room things or romantic bits, other parts involve full-on slugfests between the Varangian Guard and pissed-off Crusaders or palace coups. I try to encapsulate a wide range of emotions without bending history beyond a self-labeled acceptable range.

Whether that will get me into trouble, I don't know, but I never liked narrowing into a niche so deeply that it precluded most people from reading at all.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

ASB20 said:


> Ah, I love Rome as well, but Pompeii lacked the necessary "oomph" of a mixture of civil and sociopolitical volatility that I wanted. I considered a few other settings, but the Fourth Crusade (and the Crusades in general, but this had the best impact point outside of Jerusalem, which I didn't want to touch) had the right blend of diversity, uneasiness, and change in the air. Istanbul's the gateway to Europe and Asia even today, and back then as Constantinople, it's amazingly interesting. With the zealous Crusaders backed by Rome (and more importantly to the story and history, Venice), it's fun as heck for the story's purposes.
> 
> It's a thriller in parts. I hate to categorize it in overly general terms, but it has its peaks and valleys in pacing. Some parts it involves secret back room things or romantic bits, other parts involve full-on slugfests between the Varangian Guard and pissed-off Crusaders or palace coups. I try to encapsulate a wide range of emotions without bending history beyond a self-labeled acceptable range.
> 
> Whether that will get me into trouble, I don't know, but I never liked narrowing into a niche so deeply that it precluded most people from reading at all.


Oh no, I'm certainly not suggesting you write yourself into a genre corner. I was just curious.
Categorizing your own work can be difficult, and I don't think there's much to gain from it in the writing stage. I don't much believe in writing for an audience either.
From what you've told me, I think I would put it under historical YA, but that's just a blanket term, of course. I don't greatly enjoy throwing my own work into a great pile of stories that are nothing like mine, but I have trouble pinpointing exactly what I'm doing too.

I understand the choice for Constantinople; it does seem like it offers a lot of possibilities.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

I need to respond to this thread more. Seriously, you're all awesome.

Anyway, I have some trouble with characterization, and I think it's because of my loner status. One of my main characters is almost entirely a female version of me, with just a few tweaks to her personality to giver her a more unique identity. So she's very multi-faceted and complex.

But then comes the other two main characters. One of them I can hardly even come up with a complex personality for and the other is only about half as fleshed-out as the one who's basically me. Obviously I don't really know many other people to pull inspiration from, and although I'm an avid reader I haven't gotten much inspiration for characterization yet.

I even give my characters their own unique way of talking. So I know how to make characters unique and complex and "real", but mapping out their personalities in a document is such a chore. Also, since I'm not very social it's hard to get dialogue right. It's like, I _understand_ the human condition. I know that real people are complicated, that people are always hypocritical about something, that even really nice people have done (and still do) morally questionable things, that people can _know_ that they have a problem with something but they continue to do it, that some people have unique mannerisms and body language, stuff like that. But it's like I'm still missing something, like despite all this I don't have much experience with humans so my dialogue may be stilted or it's hard to create characters without giving them one of my own personality traits.

Also, I sort of wrote this just to procrastinate writing some character profile documents. DOH!


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## ourwater (Jun 2, 2012)

I found this on youtube.





I'm organizing my desk, and reading articles. Next to read.
http://variety.com/2013/film/news/w...een-to-co-chair-negotiating-panel-1200827868/


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> I need to respond to this thread more. Seriously, you're all awesome.
> 
> Anyway, I have some trouble with characterization, and I think it's because of my loner status. One of my main characters is almost entirely a female version of me, with just a few tweaks to her personality to giver her a more unique identity. So she's very multi-faceted and complex.
> 
> ...


I have... shovels full of advice on characterisation, but I'll try to pick out some main points to keep this readable.
It sounds to me like you are working very hard to understand your characters on a cognitive level and that is great. But now you should get to know them as people.
You are thinking about them in a very technical way: what makes a complex personality, what unique mannerisms and speech patterns should I give them, how do I make sure they're not _too_ consistent, and so on.
Let go of that for a while. A character is always going to be more consistent in behaviour than a real person, and that's okay. It's okay to give characters personality traits of your own, because you are a real, complex person and you have many of them, you know and understand these traits, and if you learn how to magnify, diminish, and warp them, there will be plenty to go around.

So how do you get to know your characters as people? Use them. Put them in scenes and see how they act rather than dictating how they should. Switch viewpoints to the character that could use more development. Write page-long internal monologues. Try writing first-person in their voice.
Have you ever considered role-playing? Maybe social anxiety will make it tough to get into it, but it is probably the best advice I can give. Focusing fully on one character like that with little or no regard for what they need to do or be for the plot will really help you develop a feeling rather than a knowing for the particular character, as well as develop your ability to get inside the heads of your characters in general.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Lev said:


> So how do you get to know your characters as people? Use them. Put them in scenes and see how they act rather than dictating how they should. Switch viewpoints to the character that could use more development. Write page-long internal monologues. Try writing first-person in their voice.
> Have you ever considered role-playing? Maybe social anxiety will make it tough to get into it, but it is probably the best advice I can give. Focusing fully on one character like that with little or no regard for what they need to do or be for the plot will really help you develop a feeling rather than a knowing for the particular character, as well as develop your ability to get inside the heads of your characters in general.


Discovering your characters through writing is amazing advice, and something that I discovered on my own relatively recently. I had been really obsessed with discovering everything about the characters of a story I was writing before I even started writing, and I just couldn't make them interesting. Finally, I gave up and just started writing. I hoped they'd develop more naturally as I wrote, and they did. I understand them so much more now than I think I ever would have trying to force them to have certain personality traits. I've found that if you just stick them in the story, their personality just tends to grow on its own.

Also, about role playing. Two of my best friends love role playing. So much so that they actually have some kind of withdrawal thing when they don't role play for a while. One of them has social anxiety, and it doesn't seem to bother her a bit during role playing because she's being a character. I think it's a great idea to help develop writing skills. I've just never been able to get into it for some reason. I think it's mainly because I don't have enough time, especially when you have to rely on others being around too.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

Well, I finished NaNoWriMo in time for my birthday. I guess I must have a pretty good sense of pacing because it's the end of my story too.
I really wasn't sure if I could do it at all, but I suppose there wasn't really a doubt after I got through the first couple of days okay seeing as I have a stubborn kind of perseverance about things like this.
I suppose I'm happy about finishing a second novel, rough as it is. I'll probably start editing after the weekend, or maybe just today if I get bored.
I can't shake the feeling that I did it wrong though. When I hear people talking about how great NaNoWriMo is, it's often about the community, and I've failed there.
I haven't spent much time of the forums at all and looking at the size of them, I'm not even sure how people make connections there. I went to my local kick-off and even talked to some people, but clearly failed to make any lasting impressions there. There's still the TGIO party, but I believe I have other engagements that weekend and I don't even really want to go.

Ugh. Does anyone else find finishing a story depressing as hell?


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## WalkingDisaster (Nov 27, 2010)

I've got some ideas for stories in my head, which I keep thinking about and mentally expanding upon. I'd really like to write them but I don't have the skills yet. One of these stories is absolutely huge and has a vast cast of characters and very complex plot (which really needs to be fleshed out but it's so difficult), the other is historical and set in a country I have never visited. The historical one is something I feel I cannot start until I have done enough research, and ideally visited the country where I plan to set it. 

I want to get my writing skills up to scratch before I start either one, so I'm planning on writing short stories and getting some feedback, but my problem there is that I can't think of any storylines for a short story. The storylines I have in my head are far too ambitious for me to try without some experience first and possibly a hell of a lot of research.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

WalkingDisaster said:


> I've got some ideas for stories in my head, which I keep thinking about and mentally expanding upon. I'd really like to write them but I don't have the skills yet. One of these stories is absolutely huge and has a vast cast of characters and very complex plot (which really needs to be fleshed out but it's so difficult), the other is historical and set in a country I have never visited. The historical one is something I feel I cannot start until I have done enough research, and ideally visited the country where I plan to set it.
> 
> I want to get my writing skills up to scratch before I start either one, so I'm planning on writing short stories and getting some feedback, but my problem there is that I can't think of any storylines for a short story. The storylines I have in my head are far too ambitious for me to try without some experience first and possibly a hell of a lot of research.


May I offer some advice? 
Write your ambitious stories. Just start. My first novel was ambitious too, but the reason I managed to stick with it is because I loved its complexity.
Short stories and novels are two completely different things and writing each requires a different set of skills. If you want to write novels, practice writing novels. And ideally, don't practice at all and just start on one of those stories that have stuck in your head for so long. Writing them will be its own practice. Doing all your outlining and research ahead of time may work for some writers, but it sounds to me that these are obstacles to you, excuses for why you aren't writing yet.
Just write. It's the only true rule of writing. Try to let some of the story work out itself as you go along. Do your research later. Don't hide behind these things and don't let them stop you from getting your story out.


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## WalkingDisaster (Nov 27, 2010)

Lev said:


> May I offer some advice?
> Write your ambitious stories. Just start. My first novel was ambitious too, but the reason I managed to stick with it is because I loved its complexity.
> Short stories and novels are two completely different things and writing each requires a different set of skills. If you want to write novels, practice writing novels. And ideally, don't practice at all and just start on one of those stories that have stuck in your head for so long. Writing them will be its own practice. Doing all your outlining and research ahead of time may work for some writers, but it sounds to me that these are obstacles to you, excuses for why you aren't writing yet.
> Just write. It's the only true rule of writing. Try to let some of the story work out itself as you go along. Do your research later. Don't hide behind these things and don't let them stop you from getting your story out.


That seems like good advice, thanks. 

As it happens, after writing that comment I walked out to the corner shop and in the process came up with a pretty good short story idea which I'll probably start soon. After that I might start on the more ambitious stuff. I've written a single chapter of each of those other stories just as practice, perhaps I'll just write more until it all starts to come together.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

WalkingDisaster said:


> That seems like good advice, thanks.
> 
> As it happens, after writing that comment I walked out to the corner shop and in the process came up with a pretty good short story idea which I'll probably start soon. After that I might start on the more ambitious stuff. I've written a single chapter of each of those other stories just as practice, perhaps I'll just write more until it all starts to come together.


It really will, and the attachment you feel to these stories will help see you through to the end. It might not always go smoothly and you might have to take some time out every now and again to think on just how to go on, but in the end, writing a story you love will be easier than writing one just for practice.
Anyway, good luck with your short story.


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lev said:


> Well, I finished NaNoWriMo in time for my birthday. I guess I must have a pretty good sense of pacing because it's the end of my story too.
> I really wasn't sure if I could do it at all, but I suppose there wasn't really a doubt after I got through the first couple of days okay seeing as I have a stubborn kind of perseverance about things like this.
> I suppose I'm happy about finishing a second novel, rough as it is. I'll probably start editing after the weekend, or maybe just today if I get bored.
> I can't shake the feeling that I did it wrong though. When I hear people talking about how great NaNoWriMo is, it's often about the community, and I've failed there.
> ...


Props on finishing even before the deadline like this. I'm nowhere near there, but I've decided **** it - I'm just going to go at my own pace, since I'm one of those people who edits ad hoc as I go, using a sort of "multiverse branching theory" of writing that allows me to narrow down what happens later by deciding and finalizing earlier bits. Trying to break that rhythm throws me off like crazy. Plus, I'm kind of an obsessive plot board planner, which goes against a lot of conventional wisdom.

I don't think you did it wrong at all. I don't feel there's any one necessary way of doing NaNoWriMo. ****, I don't participate in the community at all. I just use it as a launch pad. Frankly, you've done better than most people who even join the movement. That's to be congratulated. Connections, ah, those can be made at any writer's conference.

I do find finishing a story depressing, although not really for that reason. My mind goes totally OCD when I finish, and I start ripping plot holes in everything I just finished. I'm good at getting done - it does take time, but I can finish - but once I finish, I nitpick like crazy. Overcoming rampant perfectionism in my editing is the struggle I'm on currently.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

ASB20 said:


> Props on finishing even before the deadline like this. I'm nowhere near there, but I've decided **** it - I'm just going to go at my own pace, since I'm one of those people who edits ad hoc as I go, using a sort of "multiverse branching theory" of writing that allows me to narrow down what happens later by deciding and finalizing earlier bits. Trying to break that rhythm throws me off like crazy. Plus, I'm kind of an obsessive plot board planner, which goes against a lot of conventional wisdom.
> 
> I don't think you did it wrong at all. I don't feel there's any one necessary way of doing NaNoWriMo. ****, I don't participate in the community at all. I just use it as a launch pad. Frankly, you've done better than most people who even join the movement. That's to be congratulated. Connections, ah, those can be made at any writer's conference.
> 
> I do find finishing a story depressing, although not really for that reason. My mind goes totally OCD when I finish, and I start ripping plot holes in everything I just finished. I'm good at getting done - it does take time, but I can finish - but once I finish, I nitpick like crazy. Overcoming rampant perfectionism in my editing is the struggle I'm on currently.


I know I haven't actually failed or done NaNoWriMo wrong by not participating in the community, but the thing is that I would have liked to have made some connections. Perhaps NaNoWriMo isn't the best platform to find writers that work all year round and not always at a breakneck pace, but I appreciate that in the community at large, not one way of writing is promoted over the other and it isn't all about offering and receiving feedback.
I doubt I'll be participating again next year, as it just isn't really the way I work - I just decided to try it once as a challenge and a change of pace. I'm not aware of any other writers' conferences near me.

My lack of writing connections is only part of the reason behind my feeling downcast. I have yet to revise a story and I'm a perfectionist as well, so I'm quite scared for that, but more than anything, I find that working on one gives me so much energy and sense of direction that I feel quite lost when it just... ends.
Anyway, thank you for the spark of positivity. I started on a short story, but I should probably get into my first revision when I get through the first scene.


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## bobby. (Mar 29, 2011)

I've never been much of a writer, but I've decided to write a short story in a hope to convey to others how I perceive the world, and my frustrations living within it.

I just came up with this beaut of a sentence. Wadyathink?

_And so the scene was all made up: A platter of toroidal breadery set against a backdrop of poodle inspired hedgework-perfectly conducive to the gay, lively chatter among old friends, which continued uninterrupted till dawn._

Translation: A plate of bagels next to a hedge.

It contains two words I just made up, LOL.


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hm. I'd recommend this, Oob:

Flowery and artistic language is awesome. I'm more than guilty of it, and one of my favorite modern writers, Cormac McCarthy, goes crazy with the ish. However, there are times when going too far into the literary prose can lose your readership.

Having to Google words isn't always great. It breaks the immersion. I'm not the smartest guy ever, but I don't think a ton of people know what toroidal means, either, heh.

I do like some of the imagery, though. The poodle-inspired hedgework was a great play, and the next part describing the scene - assuming it's necessary later on - is well-put.

The toroids, man. The toroids :b


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## bobby. (Mar 29, 2011)

ASB20 said:


> Hm. I'd recommend this, Oob:
> 
> Flowery and artistic language is awesome. I'm more than guilty of it, and one of my favorite modern writers, Cormac McCarthy, goes crazy with the ish. However, there are times when going too far into the literary prose can lose your readership.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I debated whether to go with "toroidal breadery" or "breaded circles". I think I'll stick with the toroids. I'm a nerd.

Here is another nerdy bit:

_He looked down at his empty plate and, noticing the bread basket had passed him by, said in a loud and authoritative tone "The quantity and/or distribution of bread in the Universe is suboptimal", to which Susan responded by placing a bread roll on his plate. "It is better now", he said._

I've been waiting for an opportunity to say that in real life, but it never came, so it's going in a story instead.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Hi guys. I want to figure out the most realistic way for my characters to react to their situation, so can you please fill out this form for me? 
*CLICK HERE FOR THE FORM*

Obviously how my characters would react is based on their personalities, but I would love to gain some new insight from other people. It doesn't hurt to get input from multiple people about this sort of thing. (In case you're wondering, I used a Google Form for confidentiality, since I can close it once I feel like I've received enough answers.) Thanks!


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> Hi guys. I want to figure out the most realistic way for my characters to react to their situation, so can you please fill out this form for me?
> *CLICK HERE FOR THE FORM*


I filled out the form. I hope it helps. I like the idea of getting a sense of how a wide variety of people would react to a situation, especially one like that since it's hard to imagine it even happening.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

If you filled out the form I posted, thank you. I really appreciate it.

Anyway, I recently found out that I really like to write action scenes. And while I still enjoy just writing scenes where characters interact in a more mellow, slice-of-life way, I definitely have much more momentum when I use physical challenges to get characters to bounce off each other.

I know the main plot of my book, I just need to outline it. And the problem is that none of the suspenseful action stuff will happen until the second half or even the last third of the book. I need to spend the rest of the book doing purely character and emotion-driven stuff. One of my main characters has to face the hard truth that she's no longer compatible with her high school friends anymore. She messed up with the first and closest friend she has in college so they need to mend their relationship, and this relationship is mended as they develop a friendship with an AI.

Okay... so maybe I'm not having trouble with the plot itself. I think it's just really hard for me to get past the first emotional part knowing that there's more actiony stuff much later in the book. It's not that I don't want to write all the interpersonal stuff, it's just more exciting to deal with action I guess.

My book takes place in a post-apocalyptic world, but it's not dystopian because the country they live in is well-kept together and recovered well. It's just that most of the world has been abandoned. I kind of like the idea of having the characters participate in a sort of field study program where they must visit old, abandoned cities and participate in certain challenges. In fact, I _really_ like this idea because it would be a fun and interesting way to have the characters interact and provide backstory naturally.

But this raises some questions: If it's safe for them to explore abandoned cities, why aren't they making an effort to repopulate and repair those areas? The country they live in is one of two of the last countries in the world, and it's not a very big country at that.

Also, a major point in my book is that one of the main characters (let's just call her X) participated in a scholarship knowing that it would hurt her friend (let's call her Z). The winner of the scholarship gets to study abroad for a semester, but one of Z's family members won the scholarship and never came back without explanation (and this isn't the first time this has happened to someone). Z is suspicious of the scholarship and, still sad that she lost a family member, nearly ends her relationship with X. So... would it be weird of them to both participate in a class/field study in the ruins of abandoned cities?

At this point I'm just babbling because I feel stuck. I really don't want to tone down the emotional aspect of my book, but for some reason it's hard for me to feel motivated to write scenes where the characters develop together in regular slice-of-life situations (which is also important for establishing just what the country they live in is like). I'm also worried that these scenes may come off as boring. One of the biggest criticisms people give books is that they "start off slow". And this is because most writers do exactly what I'm doing: They develop the characters and establish them at first, and often this takes the first 100 pages. It's definitely going to take awhile for my characters to form a believable friendship with a machine, and this first half of the book could easily be considered the "slow"/boring part.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> Anyway, I recently found out that I really like to write action scenes. And while I still enjoy just writing scenes where characters interact in a more mellow, slice-of-life way, I definitely have much more momentum when I use physical challenges to get characters to bounce off each other.


I'm the complete opposite. I hate writing action scenes, and for that reason, the majority of the time I write stories where I won't need them. Recently I've been pushing myself to write them more so I'll become better at them though. I don't know why exactly, but they've always been really difficult for me. I think it's because I don't really know how fighting and such works, so it's difficult for me to think out an action scene. It only gets worse if it's science fiction or fantasy and I have to work in things that don't even really exist.



> My book takes place in a post-apocalyptic world, but it's not dystopian because the country they live in is well-kept together and recovered well. It's just that most of the world has been abandoned. I kind of like the idea of having the characters participate in a sort of field study program where they must visit old, abandoned cities and participate in certain challenges. In fact, I _really_ like this idea because it would be a fun and interesting way to have the characters interact and provide backstory naturally.
> 
> But this raises some questions: If it's safe for them to explore abandoned cities, why aren't they making an effort to repopulate and repair those areas? The country they live in is one of two of the last countries in the world, and it's not a very big country at that.
> 
> Also, a major point in my book is that one of the main characters (let's just call her X) participated in a scholarship knowing that it would hurt her friend (let's call her Z). The winner of the scholarship gets to study abroad for a semester, but one of Z's family members won the scholarship and never came back without explanation (and this isn't the first time this has happened to someone). Z is suspicious of the scholarship and, still sad that she lost a family member, nearly ends her relationship with X. So... would it be weird of them to both participate in a class/field study in the ruins of abandoned cities?


This all sounds incredibly interesting to me. It definitely describes a book that I would want to pick up if I heard about it. I understand being scared that it will be boring, but I honestly believe that having emotional stuff is what really connects people to a book. Action is cool and fun, but if you really want someone to have an attachment to what you write, then you have to give them something that makes them emotionally attached. There's so much potential there to not make it boring. For me, the biggest thing is making the characters intriguing. When I read something, I'm far more likely to stick to it if I like the characters.

Are you planning on putting the exploring abandoned cities in the beginning of the story? I think it sounds like a really interesting idea. There's so much potential there for it to not be boring at all.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> But this raises some questions: If it's safe for them to explore abandoned cities, why aren't they making an effort to repopulate and repair those areas? The country they live in is one of two of the last countries in the world, and it's not a very big country at that.


Perhaps it shouldn't be (entirely) safe. It sounds like it makes sense in the world you've built, and it would allow you to write some more action early on, provided that these field studies begin early on as well (and if that's not what you were planning, why not?). Buildings could collapse. If you have any strange creatures or just normal wildlife, they could pose a threat. Characters could get lost. You could let one almost fall to his/her death. Twist some ankles, break some bones. Plenty of fun stuff.
Character exposition and development and action scenes do not need to be cleanly separated, and you do not need to do all your character exposition before you're allowed to write action. Action scenes can be the start or the result of character scenes, and action scenes themselves can show something about a character, or jolt certain emotional developments.
Don't feel like you need to "slog through" a hundred pages of slice-of-life before you can write what you really want to write. Obviously you still need to take time to establish characters and develop them in credible ways, but there's no reason to hold off on all the action until you have, especially if you're using (some of) the action as character moments.

I also don't think it's strange for your characters X and Z to both participate in the same field study program. Even if their relationship was strained, I don't see why Z would sacrifice her education to not have to see X again, unless she puts excessive importance on personal relationships over her own development, or it is very easy for her to get into a different program (and even then she might not want to let herself get pushed out of the program she signed up for).

Anyway, I agree with hmweasley: interesting concept. 



hmweasley said:


> I'm the complete opposite. I hate writing action scenes, and for that reason, the majority of the time I write stories where I won't need them. Recently I've been pushing myself to write them more so I'll become better at them though. I don't know why exactly, but they've always been really difficult for me. I think it's because I don't really know how fighting and such works, so it's difficult for me to think out an action scene. It only gets worse if it's science fiction or fantasy and I have to work in things that don't even really exist.


I used to feel the same, but as I just tried to explain, there's no reason an action scene cannot be about the character as well. Hurt them, traumatize them, show off what they really believe in, make them tired or lose faith, grow closer or gain hope...
Something that works for me is focusing on the experience, and realizing that the exact details aren't all that important. Describe the general action, but don't get caught up in trying to convey exactly how someone positions his feet, or precisely how he swings his sword: it's enough to know that he swings it, and maybe if it's clumsy or fast or desperate, but you don't need to describe the exact trajectory.
In extended fight scenes in particular, you don't need to go blow-by-blow. It will just make it long-winded, especially if you're not enjoying writing it.
Another little trick is taking the viewpoint of a character who is also inexperienced. A first fight or battle or chase will surely be a great shock and you'll find that there is plenty of emotion to work with, and it would only be odd if the character in this state was able to perfectly describe the exact details of what's going on. Bring the reader up close and let them be confused and scared with the character. 
It's not about the visuals. An action scene in a book will never "look" as slick and impressive as one on the screen. Use a novel's strong point and bring the reader inside your characters' heads.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Thanks for the advice; you're all awesome. I'm going to save a lot of the responses in this thread to a document because a lot the posts here are helping me to become a better writer. If you don't want me to make copy pasta out of your posts please let me know!

And if anyone wants to become writing buddies message me. I really like this thread but I constantly feel like I need to hold back on some things because I don't want the finer details of my unfinished work on a public forum.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Lev said:


> I used to feel the same, but as I just tried to explain, there's no reason an action scene cannot be about the character as well. Hurt them, traumatize them, show off what they really believe in, make them tired or lose faith, grow closer or gain hope...


I love this piece of advice. I will definitely focus on that in the future. I think it could really help me when writing action scenes. All of your advice was really great. I plan on keeping it in mind in the future.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Two days ago i wrote my best story up to now  I am happy with that.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

I'm happy to help. 

That's great, Mersault.  What was it about?

I don't suppose anyone has any great advice on editing and revision?
I'm not really looking for the very technical, close-up "use active voice, don't use too many clauses" kind of tips. I prefer to trust my instincts on this. Agonizing over every last line is not just going to kill me; it will also make me lose track of a line's place in the overall flow. I'm looking for general advice on how to approach (and survive) the process.
The only useful advice I've come across so far is reading your writing out loud to test the flow, and I was already doing that.
Other than that, I've read that you should let your work rest for a while before editing, which I am doing with my first novel, but I don't consider an option for my NaNo. Since it was written in three weeks, it isn't as polished as my usual writing and I'd like to improve it at least a little before I start asking for feedback. I also think my only shot at publishing it will die if I don't query within a timely manner (if indeed I decide to). I'll take some time out before I start on a third draft.
I also hear everywhere that you should aim to cut 10% (sometimes more) of your first draft, but I don't think that works for me either. I have a natural aversion to filler, fluff, overdescription, and gratuitous plot/world exposition that keeps me from writing much of it in the first place. I'm finding that I actually have to add some more in here and there.
Anyway, any pointers?


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

It was about a trip brought by the calculations about an astronomical phenomenon


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Lev said:


> I don't suppose anyone has any great advice on editing and revision?


Write the first draft first without editing. Just keep going and don't stop or you'll lose momentum. Then when you're done, wait a month or so to get it out of your mind, and when your mind is finally fresh, read the first draft without editing it. If you haven't already printed it out, do so. Re-read it and make notes. Don't make little grammatical corrections yet. You should start big and work down to the smaller details as you progress through your drafts. So only make notes about specific scenes, e.g., this character was being out-of-character in this particular scene or you need to completely re-do an entire chapter. I say don't worry about the small details like grammatical or spelling errors until you've finished the 3rd or 4th draft. It will really save you time if you just put off fixing the tiny details until the very end.

And... if you first draft is has so much crap that you may as well just re-write the entire thing... then you get to start all over again. Yeah... I've had to do that. The first draft of my book is mostly just crap. Like, only a few chapters are actually salvageable and everything else just needs to get thrown away. So now I'm just doing a brand new first draft. But you have to to what you have to do.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> Write the first draft first without editing. Just keep going and don't stop or you'll lose momentum. Then when you're done, wait a month or so to get it out of your mind, and when your mind is finally fresh, read the first draft without editing it. If you haven't already printed it out, do so. Re-read it and make notes. Don't make little grammatical corrections yet. You should start big and work down to the smaller details as you progress through your drafts. So only make notes about specific scenes, e.g., this character was being out-of-character in this particular scene or you need to completely re-do an entire chapter. I say don't worry about the small details like grammatical or spelling errors until you've finished the 3rd or 4th draft. It will really save you time if you just put off fixing the tiny details until the very end.
> 
> And... if you first draft is has so much crap that you may as well just re-write the entire thing... then you get to start all over again. Yeah... I've had to do that. The first draft of my book is mostly just crap. Like, only a few chapters are actually salvageable and everything else just needs to get thrown away. So now I'm just doing a brand new first draft. But you have to to what you have to do.


I... am doing precisely none of this. XD
I like editing as I go. One thing I learned from NaNo is that I actually love my inner editor. As long as it's not scaring me out of writing anything in the first place, it has really good ideas, and it makes for a very readable first draft. I find it gets in my way when I _can't_ go back and make changes.
I might be able to try some of this with my first novel though, and with my NaNo's third draft, particularly the waiting, printing out, and making notes, and see how that works for me.
I think I might not be the kind of writer that does a million drafts.


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## Ayvee (Jan 3, 2013)

I am an aspiring writer--I've written several novels although none of them are published. I won NaNoWriMo last month with around 70,000 words instead of just 50K. I also write poetry and songs; a lot of them are on my blog. 

I've been writing for as long as I can remember. It has always been a huge part of my life and I would love to be published someday. English and writing just always came easily to me, although there's still room for improvement! I started my first novel when I was around eight and finished it at fourteen...two years later I reread the manuscript, and, having improved a lot, decided it absolutely sucked and scrapped it. Currently, I'm working on four novels not counting my finished ones.

Does anyone have a Figment profile here by any chance?


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

@Ayvee: I've never even heard of Figment before. Seems like a nice sight, but I am horrid at this online networking thing. Well, most of the time, anyway. I've been writing and drawing for as long as I can remember, as well, and I've always wanted to write my own novel. I've just never finished one before, and frankly I think that's a good thing because my past writing sucked. I tried to write a novel when I was 10 or 12 and it was the worst writing you could ever imagine. Then I tried again I was around 13 - 15 and that was also horrid. In fact my second book attempt was just several pages of me whining about my teenage life. Now I'm actually writing my first book for real, and since I'm almost 20 I think I've finally got this. 
--
--
I need some advice from anyone who can help me. I'm a little afraid of establishing what race/ethnicity my characters are. Despite America's melting pot culture, a lot of people are going to think all your characters are white unless you state otherwise. But describing a character's hair color doesn't really help, either. If someone has naturally red or blond hair then it's obvious they're white, but brown and black hair is too universal. And although it usually feels more natural to simply describe the color of a character's skin when first introducing them, simply mentioning that someone has dark skin still isn't very specific. Black, Indian, Spanish, South American, etc. people have dark skin. But how do you establish this without outright stating, "this character happens to be black"? It seems kind of tactless to do that. One of my characters has a Spanish last name at least, but defining the race of _every_ character by their last names is going to feel overdone. I'm only going to use the last name trick on one character and one only.

I understand that this can be a sensitive thing to talk about, but I think it's important. There are all types of people in the world and leaving out details like that does more harm than good in my opinion. None of my characters are defined by the color of their skin, but I still want to make the diversity clear in a tactful, inoffensive way. I'm writing a science fiction book, and sci-fi already has a bad rap for not including main characters that aren't white.


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## StNaive (Feb 21, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> I need some advice from anyone who can help me. I'm a little afraid of establishing what race/ethnicity my characters are. Despite America's melting pot culture, a lot of people are going to think all your characters are white unless you state otherwise. But describing a character's hair color doesn't really help, either. If someone has naturally red or blond hair then it's obvious they're white, but brown and black hair is too universal. And although it usually feels more natural to simply describe the color of a character's skin when first introducing them, simply mentioning that someone has dark skin still isn't very specific. Black, Indian, Spanish, South American, etc. people have dark skin. But how do you establish this without outright stating, "this character happens to be black"? It seems kind of tactless to do that. One of my characters has a Spanish last name at least, but *defining the race of every character by their last names is going to feel overdone*. I'm only going to use the *last name trick* on one character and one only.
> 
> I understand that this can be a sensitive thing to talk about, but I think it's important. There are all types of people in the world and leaving out details like that does more harm than good in my opinion. None of my characters are defined by the color of their skin, but I still want to make the diversity clear in a tactful, inoffensive way. I'm writing a science fiction book, and sci-fi already has a bad rap for not including main characters that aren't white.


Well, I don't know about the last name trick thing, but first names can be a good way to go as well. Of course not every person of colour has a first name that reflects their ethnicity, and sometimes they'll anglicize their name, but first names on their own could be a more natural and clear way of doing it, at least for some characters. Also, IF IF you know what you're doing, you could include some race-related elements/subplots that reveal what race some characters are. Or you could do it through casual dialogue.

Don't know if any of that's helpful, but hopefully something there makes sense.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> I need some advice from anyone who can help me. I'm a little afraid of establishing what race/ethnicity my characters are.


I see how it doesn't seem like the most elegant solution, but directness might be the easiest way. It might seem blunt to just say a character is black or Hispanic, but I feel like talking around it might just be like trying to invent a hundred different words for "said." Sometimes it's appropriate, but most of the time the reader won't thank you for it.
I think your personal style and what viewpoint you're using are important in this. If your style of writing is quite direct and straight-forward, I'd advise you to be direct in this too. If your style as a whole is more flowery, you might use different solutions. 
I don't think the last name trick can be used just once. It might make sense for some characters to be known by their last names only, or for their surname to come up naturally in conversation. If you're descriptive, you can go into hair type as well as colour, or characters' facial features. You might have them speak a different language to their family. Of course these solutions might take time away from your story.
If you're very adament about not being direct with this, I've seen "ebony" used for black and "olive" for Hispanic skin types. You might turn up a few more words if you research skin tones.
You could also mix a couple of different ways, or try them out.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm struggling with the race thing at the moment right now. In the story I'm writing at the moment, I'm trying to make my characters diverse, and I keep going back and forth on how to best establish what race they each are. I'm not sure how in your face to be about it, but I want it to be clear.

I don't want it to be like Hunger Games where Rue's skin color was described, yet when the movie came out, some people freaked out because she was black. Still, when you read that book it's clear what race she is, but I think people are just so used to white characters that they completely ignored the description. That's what makes me think I need to be more "in your face" about it.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Does anyone else have trouble starting? Like every time I star at the document, my little fingers don't want to touch the keyboard. Even if I know exactly what I'm going to write, even if there's a very clear picture of how the scene will turn out in my head, it's so hard to actually start writing it. I know that once I get started I can get some momentum going, but the actual act of getting started is so hard. 

I also tend to lose momentum quickly. It seems like the most I can write in one sitting is 600 or so words. Does anyone have the same problem, and is there anyway to overcome this? I don't know why it's so hard to get started. So far I've only written one sentence and I'm still procrastinating


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> Does anyone else have trouble starting? Like every time I star at the document, my little fingers don't want to touch the keyboard. Even if I know exactly what I'm going to write, even if there's a very clear picture of how the scene will turn out in my head, it's so hard to actually start writing it. I know that once I get started I can get some momentum going, but the actual act of getting started is so hard.
> 
> I also tend to lose momentum quickly. It seems like the most I can write in one sitting is 600 or so words. Does anyone have the same problem, and is there anyway to overcome this? I don't know why it's so hard to get started. So far I've only written one sentence and I'm still procrastinating


Yes, I often have trouble starting too. It can be useful to identify, for yourself at least, just what's keeping you from putting the words down.
If you're quick to get distracted, there are programs to keep you from using the internet during your predetermined writing time. I have no personal experience with them, but I know there are other writers who swear by them.
One technique I use is free-writing before I start work on my story. (Set a timer for ten minutes. For those ten minutes, keep your fingers typing. No backspace.) There are different things you can get out of this. Some writers use it to brainstorm or get out words and scenes and ideas without the interference of their inner editor. Personally I find it helpful to get out any thoughts that don't have anything to do with my story, as well as any anxieties about writing in the first place, and it serves as a sort of ritual as well. If you know you're always free-writing before your normal writing (and you cannot fail free-writing), it might make the transition into normal writing a little easier.
One program I find quite helpful and might help you as well from what you're describing is Write or Die. You can use it online for free, but the desktop version (if you do need to shut off the internet to keep from getting distracted) is quite inexpensive. It's a little similar to free-writing, but you set a word count. I use it to get out the scenes that are in my head but that I can't seem to get on paper for some reason.

When you stop writing after 600 words, do you feel like you could have done more, or should have done more? If you feel like you could do more, try to push through, and if that doesn't work, maybe all you need is a small break. Listen to a song, get a drink. Do a household chore to keep your hands busy while your head works out where to go next.
If your momentum is really gone after 600 words, maybe you should try to fit in two writing sessions a day. But it could just be that you're a slow writer by nature, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that. I'm not quick either. You can try to push your limits, and you might try something like NaNoWriMo, but it could be that you're just not the kind of writer that gets out a couple thousand words a day (comfortably, anyway).


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> Does anyone else have trouble starting? Like every time I star at the document, my little fingers don't want to touch the keyboard. Even if I know exactly what I'm going to write, even if there's a very clear picture of how the scene will turn out in my head, it's so hard to actually start writing it. I know that once I get started I can get some momentum going, but the actual act of getting started is so hard.


I don't although I can definitely see why someone would. For me, I'm typically thinking about my idea for a while before I start writing it, and I pretty much start writing the beginning in my head before I actually start writing it. A lot of the time I'll just fly through the beginning until I reach a point where it becomes more of a struggle, and then it just gets harder and harder as I go on. The ending is usually the hardest for me. I always outline, so I know how I want it to go, but for some reason I can never decide exactly how to end it.


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## EccentricCat (Dec 8, 2013)

I am an aspiring writer. I started writing because I was bored. I continued because I enjoy it. I have been collecting notes and ideas since 1996. I did have some things written but, I discovered that I had a nasty habit of writing, going back to edit, scrapping what I wrote and starting over. I have only recently been able to over come that. I have finished one story and am in the process of doing one of many re-writes for it. Also, I never really considered publishing until about two years ago. 

Once I did get this thought in mind, I found myself losing focus, experiencing writer's block. I felt I would never be as good as some of my favorite authors (though I hope I will be better than others, I won't name names). I felt I had to make my stories sound good and intelligent right from the get-go. I stopped reading because I didn't want to be influenced by others. This is a false idea. Influence will happen. 

When I discovered I did want to be published, I lost sight of why I enjoyed writing once I had gotten the taste for it. 

I would like to get published, but I don't think it will be the end of the world if I don't. I would rather just write because I enjoy creating fictional worlds, people, and cultures, and having my characters go through tasks for their own growth...or destruction.

Now, I need to make it a goal to get back to reading and I need to get back to writing, not for the sake of writing, but for the sake of creating.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

EccentricCat said:


> I am an aspiring writer.


I don't think I like the term aspiring writer. In my opinion, unless you are still only flirting with the idea of writing and jotting down a couple of words here and there, you are a writer if you write, published or not.
I can definitely relate to the thought of publishing becoming an obstacle. I've known I want to get published ever since I rediscovered writing a couple of years ago and started on my first novel, but I cannot allow that thought into my head, in any real way at least, when I'm writing, or self-doubt will keep from getting anything done at all. And it really shouldn't be about publishing.

I do feel more influenced if I'm reading while I'm writing. Obviously influence will always be there, but I found myself more drawn to writing about travel and adventure while struggling through The Lord of the Rings (unpopular opinion, I know), and writing about more pretty swords and violence when I was reading A Song of Ice and Fire, as well as using certain words and word combinations more than I usually would.
It's probably not something to be greatly concerned about though. Even if the influence is apparent, it's unlikely you'll still be reading the same for all your future drafts, and it likely isn't as apparent as you think.



TheHopeless said:


> Does anyone else have trouble starting?


I just recalled another little tidbit of advice. If you finish a scene or chapter during your writing session, it might seem like a great point to call it a day, but try to keep going. Write at least a line or two of your next scene or chapter so you won't be staring at a blank page the next day. Allow yourself to reread those lines when you start your next writing session and even edit them if you'd like as a way to get started on the new chapter/scene.
Anyway, I hope some of this helps you.


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## EccentricCat (Dec 8, 2013)

Lev said:


> I don't think I like the term aspiring writer. In my opinion, unless you are still only flirting with the idea of writing and jotting down a couple of words here and there, you are a writer if you write, published or not.
> I can definitely relate to the thought of publishing becoming an obstacle. I've known I want to get published ever since I rediscovered writing a couple of years ago and started on my first novel, but I cannot allow that thought into my head, in any real way at least, when I'm writing, or self-doubt will keep from getting anything done at all. And it really shouldn't be about publishing.
> 
> I do feel more influenced if I'm reading while I'm writing. Obviously influence will always be there, but I found myself more drawn to writing about travel and adventure while struggling through The Lord of the Rings (unpopular opinion, I know), and writing about more pretty swords and violence when I was reading A Song of Ice and Fire, as well as using certain words and word combinations more than I usually would.
> ...


Okay. I _am_ a writer, but I am an aspiring professional writer.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

EccentricCat said:


> Okay. I _am_ a writer, but I am an aspiring professional writer.


I got that. Just expressing an opinion on the general usage of the term.
I think most of us here are. The best of luck to you.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Merry Christmas, everybody.

Does anyone know how to get over creative insecurity? I think the number 1 thing that stops me from writing and drawing is the whole "I'm not very good at it" insecurity. I've been trying to work on my book all day but I've been avoiding it and telling myself that I can't. I'm afraid that there are a million plot holes everywhere, that I'm not doing the worldbuilding and characters right or that I need to reconsider this and that I can't come up with anything good blah blah blah.

I also find it hard to trust people with feedback because then I have a lot of ideas to share and I don't know how other people will react. Sometimes I think that having somebody to talk with regarding all this creative stuff would help but at the same time 

Being a creative person sucks most of the time. It's only fun when I'm finally actually doing something instead of letting my mind race like it is now. Everything is crap to me right now. Discussing and sharing the experience with others is crap. Editing is crap. Coming up with ideas is crap because all my ideas are crap. And I don't want to draw right now because I draw like crap. Ughghghhgdfaaaaah!
--
ALSO what do you guys think about editing while writing? I've been trying to follow the "just write" mantra and crank out a first draft before doing any editing, but I feel like going over what I've already written can help get the creative gears turning. The only problem with that is that I'm going to notice all the flaws in what I've previously written, which is kind of discouraging. I almost gave up on my book completely when I reread my original first draft because I could finally see just how poor my writing actually is.

But maybe the "just write everything before editing" method won't work for me this time. If anyone here has any other methods and whatnot to share let me know.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

I used to have the problem of not wanting to write because I thought it would be bad, but I've gotten better about that recently. I just have to tell myself that no one but me every has to see it, so it's okay for it to be bad. It's not like it will be put on display for everyone to see if I don't want it to be. It's kind of like I've told myself it's okay if it's not perfect and that helps me most of the time, although I do get really discouraged sometimes.

I have an extremely hard time getting critiques from others. I really do want critical advice that will help me become better, but I'm always so worried that they'll just say something like, "There's no hope for this or even you as a writer." I know it's highly unlikely that it would ever happen, but the fears there. Most of the time I don't even want to tell someone my idea because I'm scared they'll hate it.

I ended up talking about the idea I was currently working on in one of my classes a few weeks ago though, and everyone was telling me that it sounded like something they would read. That really gave me a confidence boost that really helped me with writing for quite a while. So once I get over the fear, getting another opinion can actually be really nice, but it's usually hard to see that before you show someone your idea or especially a draft of what you're writing.

If I do let someone read my writing, I absolutely cannot be around them. Having other students or professors read my papers while I'm not there is the worst. I don't want to be able to see their reactions on their faces while they read. School papers aren't usually that bad because they're not personal to me, but when it's my fiction that I'm really committed to, it's hard. At least if they read it away from me and hate it, they can compose themselves and come up with something to say before I know they thought it was horrible. It's kind of pointless since I'd get the same opinion, but it makes me feel better not being there.

As for editing while writing, I don't personally do it. I like getting the entire idea down before I worry about editing. I'm more concerned about making sure that the entire story is down at least in some capacity before I worry about smaller details or if things need to be moved around and such. If I happen to notice some sort of grammar mistake while still writing, then I will fix it though because it will drive me crazy otherwise.

I do get editing while writing though, and I understand why some people do. I just feel like it disrupts my ideas too much though since I almost always write from beginning to end, and it's easier to me than jumping around.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

I think another thing that's stopping me is logical problems. I don't know if my villain is believable, and although I would love to write a prequel about how the villain became a villain, my first book still needs to stand on its own. And some of the unexplored motivations of my villain and the ramifications of some situations seem contrived to me.

It's like the whole point of my novel is falling apart because some major aspects don't make logical, believable sense. I could try my best to rework things and come up with a new outline but it seems hopeless. I want to write this book but I'm not even sure if any of it is good anymore. I wish I could show some people my plot outline and ask what parts need to be reworked but I find it kind of hard to trust that kind of information with people.

I also just kind of hate writing plot outlines. It feels tedious and I'd rather just write the book itself than put together a bunch of synopses. But I know that I _need_ to follow an outline. My first attempt at writing my book was an unsolvable, jumbled mess. But I'm kind of a spontaneous writer, and I often deviate from plot outlines because I just go wherever the story takes me. I want to be a structured writer who can follow a good outline so my story makes sense. There's _a lot_ going on in my book and it all needs to fit together. I won't feel motivated to write my book until I know that what I'm writing holds together. But writing an outline, and then getting critiques on that outline, just feels like a chore.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Sorry but... BUMP.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> It's like the whole point of my novel is falling apart because some major aspects don't make logical, believable sense. I could try my best to rework things and come up with a new outline but it seems hopeless. I want to write this book but I'm not even sure if any of it is good anymore. I wish I could show some people my plot outline and ask what parts need to be reworked but I find it kind of hard to trust that kind of information with people.


I've reached this point with pretty much everything I've ever written. I think it's pretty common. I have ideas that seem great in my head, but once you start writing them down of course you start realizing all of the problems and plot holes. There'll be times where you may not be able to work with it, but most of the time I think you can if you work hard enough. There's usually a way to make things work.

I agree that showing people can be helpful, but I also understand not trusting people. I always think my writing would benefit from showing it to people and discussing it, but I have yet to find good people to do that with.



> I also just kind of hate writing plot outlines. It feels tedious and I'd rather just write the book itself than put together a bunch of synopses. But I know that I _need_ to follow an outline. My first attempt at writing my book was an unsolvable, jumbled mess. But I'm kind of a spontaneous writer, and I often deviate from plot outlines because I just go wherever the story takes me. I want to be a structured writer who can follow a good outline so my story makes sense. There's _a lot_ going on in my book and it all needs to fit together. I won't feel motivated to write my book until I know that what I'm writing holds together. But writing an outline, and then getting critiques on that outline, just feels like a chore.


I'm so undecided when it comes to outlines. I used to never use them, but then I started using them for everything I wrote. Now I've reached the point where sometimes I make one and sometimes I don't. The last thing I was writing I didn't make one, and then about half way through I was kind of stuck and made one for the rest of the story. I'm brainstorming another story now, and I have an outline for the beginning of the story. I'm not sure if I'm going to outline the rest though. I may later, but for now I'm just going to start writing and see what happens.


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## WineKitty (Nov 26, 2004)

I am just getting started trying to write a story I have had in my head for years and am running into the problem of plot holes and such. I have four major ideas that I have had for some time and my goal for 2014 is to develop one and actually finish it. I have a working title and am still working on the outline. At least it's a starting point.

It would be nice if the story just flowed from your fingers and in a manner that produced a flowing, great book but I don't think that happens for most people. I think it's fine to deviate from the outline if you feel it taking you another direction but having a outline to work from I believe is essential for most. 

I don't plan on showing my work to anyone until it's done and in need of editing and even then it will be terrifying. It's like putting yourself out there, completely exposed and that is so scary. But yet it is a necessary part of the process.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Alright, I just can't go on. I'm really, really stuck and I need some help. However I don't want to feel like I'm leeching off anyone so I want to do an even trade: We both critique each other's work. I'm putting this out there for anyone who wants to take up the offer. 

What I would like to do is share what I've written so far, which is the first 4 chapters. After getting first impressions and critiques, I'll then share a synopsis of the entire story so you can get more context and then help me with the story and structure.

Please send me a message if you're up for it.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> Alright, I just can't go on. I'm really, really stuck and I need some help. However I don't want to feel like I'm leeching off anyone so I want to do an even trade: We both critique each other's work. I'm putting this out there for anyone who wants to take up the offer.


I don't really think I'm in a good place to critique right now otherwise I would be willing. Have you looked into any online critique groups for help though? I've heard of Scribophile before although I've never done anything with it other than sign up. Maybe if would be helpful?


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## AnotherGuy (Aug 5, 2013)

Hi. I'm new to this thread.

I recently set my resolve to write a novel and I'm terrified. Since I was a child I have been fascinated with time travel and I have had thousands of ideas in my head for stories, but none more prevalent than one specific story about a neophobic man who can visit his own past to change events in his sleep. However, now that I'm gathering my marbles so to speak, I have discovered that writing about time travel is a virtual nightmare. I really enjoyed 11/22/63 by Stephen King and it's all about time travel. I read an interview where he warned that it's extremely difficult.

I've decided to switch to something a tad less ambitious for a first go at writing anything. I've also always had an idea to write something based on a favorite song of mine that came out in 2001 by the group Limp Bizkit. The song is called "The One". It's a great tune about the conviction someone feels when they're convinced that they belong with one person only in the world. Having my own "one who got away story" in my life, I figured that I might be able to finesse my thoughts into a decent story.

This is "The One", by the way, if anyone cares haha


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi, AnotherGuy. I've never written anything involving time travel before, but I would imagine that it is really difficult. I think the biggest problem would be keeping everything straight in your own mind as a writer. You'd have to remember what each character is aware of at any given point, and of course, you'd have to think about how any time travel would affect and change various things that had happened. I don't know if it's something I'd ever want to attempt personally. I feel like it would take ages to make sure everything was right.

I completely understand starting on something else first, and I wish you luck with the story you're writing know. If the time travel story is something you really feel passionate about though, then I definitely recommend coming back to it in the future. If you have an amazing idea that you just can't get out of your head, then I'm sure you'll be able to get it down into an awesome story. It just might involve a lot of hard work.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

Hello everyone. It's been a while. A bit late, but happy new year.
I have started on novel three, which has been... very, very slow going. I did not outline it, like I did not outline my first novel, which this would be a sequel to. Working without an outline is both wonderful and terrifying. I outlined my second novel because it was for NaNoWriMo and there's no way I would have written that story in three weeks if I was still figuring it out as I went along, but of course I hated outlining as I was doing it and I hated working from an outline as I was doing that. An outline can be restrictive and a chore, but it's probably the way to go if you want to maximize your daily output. Now the best part of working without one is letting your creativity take free rein and the intense satisfaction of watching your story grow and come together, but from personal experience, I'd say it's definitely slower, and there is a lot of frustration in it too, when you're still waiting for that creative spark. It's a personal preference.

Anyway, before I write a post the size of the moon responding to week-old posts: as might be clear, I am always willing to talk about and offer advice on anything writing-related, so just send me a message. I would definitely be up for a novel swap at this point, if anyone still needs one.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

I've actually started to realize that I prefer outlines. Whenever I start something new, I'm always tempted not to outline because I know what a chore making an outline is, so I usually start without one. That lasts a few days until I start realizing that I feel like I'm going nowhere. Eventually I get so frustrated that I just have to get down an outline of where the story's going. I also prefer more general outlines than very detailed ones though.

Also, I really like having a clear timeline of when events happen in the story, especially if it takes place over a longer period of time. I need to know in my head how many days it's been since such and such happened, and it's extremely hard for me to keep track of that sort of thing without an outline.

Now that I've realized all that, I think I'm going to save myself the trouble of getting frustrated in the future and just make outlines all the time before I start writing.


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## jc22 (Jul 5, 2012)

Ive got a big problem mainly with my decision to write and i don't know what to do. i dont want to be one of those people who never write anything of worth, who are so deluded and unaware, unaware of their own motivations, writing only to hide from their problems. I feel way too silly (and guilty) to let myself go and play around within the confines of a story. It just seems so pointless and yet the drive is still there forcing me to go and try write one. That's a ridiculous combination which puts me in a position where i feel like i cant move mentally - I work on the story and I hate myself for it, I stop and move away and suddenly I cant help but be drawn to writing again. There are way too many options whizzing by me both in terms of plot and the construction of language itself and it makes me super anxious, so its doing the exact opposite of what I hoped. I don't know what I want from writing, if its just an exercise to prop up my ego or what. I don't know what I want


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## ShadowOnTheWall (Dec 24, 2010)

jc22 said:


> Ive got a big problem mainly with my decision to write and i don't know what to do. i dont want to be one of those people who never write anything of worth, who are so deluded and unaware, unaware of their own motivations, writing only to hide from their problems. I feel way too silly (and guilty) to let myself go and play around within the confines of a story. It just seems so pointless and yet the drive is still there forcing me to go and try write one. That's a ridiculous combination which puts me in a position where i feel like i cant move mentally - I work on the story and I hate myself for it, I stop and move away and suddenly I cant help but be drawn to writing again. There are way too many options whizzing by me both in terms of plot and the construction of language itself and it makes me super anxious, so its doing the exact opposite of what I hoped. I don't know what I want from writing, if its just an exercise to prop up my ego or what. I don't know what I want


I'm in a similar position, I can write small pieces, and something frivolous online, but I have trouble writing as everytime I can't help ask myself "what's the point?" I've been ages searching for a story or a plot with a point but it feels like a fool's errand. Though I kind of think its better to write "frivolous" stuff than nothing at all, as it still gives you a release and lets you work on your writing ability.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

hmweasley said:


> I've actually started to realize that I prefer outlines.


That's valuable knowledge. I'm not sure what I prefer yet. I'd like to say it's working without an outline, but that's certainly not how I feel right now. I'm hoping that will improve as my story starts to come together a bit more. I don't start with a blank slate exactly; I have thoughts in my head of where I might want to go, and where I want to end up, but it's very vague and fluid. Curiously, I prefer not outlining for complex stories. Don't ask me how many days are between one scene and the next, but I actually find it easier to keep track of character development and the flow of a story without planning it.



jc22 said:


> Ive got a big problem mainly with my decision to write and i don't know what to do.


I've wasted a couple of years of my life wondering whether or not I should really be writing. The reasons for my doubt didn't have much to do with wanting my story to have a point, but nonetheless, I think I can relate. The first two chapters of my first novel were written over the course of over a year and a half because I kept questioning myself at every word, and because I was terrified of committing to a dream that only few actually achieve (becoming a professional writer). The only way past this, for me, was committing, and it wasn't for another couple of months of dedicating myself to my story and building some manner of discipline and work ethic that I realized how happy it was making me.
If you are so passionate about writing that it won't leave you alone no matter how you try to turn your back on it, I think you should be writing, but you need to take some of the pressure off. Just what writing means to you is for you to work out, but the only way to finding out is doing it.
Writing is a wonderful art in that you can keep perfecting your work. It is not like putting paint on canvas or chiselling away stone where if you keep changing your mind, it's going to be harder and harder to undo your decisions. So much of your story won't develop until you start putting words down onto paper. You can plan a novel down to the smallest details and feel like you know your characters like you know yourself, but none of it will come alive until you start writing it down. And trust me, it will evolve. If your story means something to you, it will have meaning, even if you can't quite put your finger on what it's trying to say yet. Trust that you'll find out, and trust that it will grow.
Your story isn't set in stone as soon as you put the first words down.


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## jc22 (Jul 5, 2012)

Thank you for your advice I genuinely appreciate it. As you can probably tell from my earlier post, when anxious my mind's preference is to rattle on and on incoherently rather than speak in a more ordered sense as I feel I am doing now. In fact I think there's something seriously more than just anxiety going on because the size of the change in concentration span, enthusiasm, vernacular, verbal dexterity etc is very very stark and very very annoying - I'm speaking comparatively obviously. (Perhaps bipolar?)Anyway its definitely a stumbling block, having to deal with this problem. One issue also is I love writing prose, but don't necessarily love creating the plot. I might love the idea of it but anyhow... Thanks again for the advice


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, I've been gone a while. I wish I could say that was due to cracking down on my writing and getting moving, but alas...more of the opposite.

I know the likes of Stephen King say just to force yourself to write - whether that's 2,000 words or 200 or whatever - but as someone who's inherently a planner and strategist, I find myself freaking out about little details I'll write when they're not properly organized ahead of time. I have no problem revising or even ad-hoc writing on the fly if I know that's what up, but just looking at my story and sending a volley of words downrange...yeesh, it sends all sorts of toxic thoughts bouncing around my creative brain. I'm a critic by nature, and it's easy - _way_ too easy - to go into _The New Yorker_ mode and start lobbing mortars at my work when I don't have my thoughts in order.

More of a rant than anything, sorry. I needed to get my creative doldrums off of my brain.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

I can't exactly say I'm perfect in that regard - it's been a few weeks and I'm not even 10k in - but I keep rediscovering, time and again, that writing something is better than writing nothing. Trying to force words feels absolutely awful, and generally I don't feel particularly good about it after either (unless something has somehow clicked during and I was inspired), but often after a break, or the next day, or sometimes as long as a few days later, I'm able to look back and see that with some moving around and rewording, there is a worthwhile scene or chapter to be made of what I believed all that time was garbled nonsense.
But yes, it is incredibly difficult not to be so critical when in all honesty, you _don't_ know what you're doing.
If you use the time you should be writing on actively planning or working out your scene (or character, or researching something relevant) though, I don't think that's anything to punish yourself over. And if not, well, we all have bad days.



jc22 said:


> One issue also is I love writing prose, but don't necessarily love creating the plot.


If creating a plot is giving you trouble, have you considered just starting with a single concept or some small collection of ideas and working out the details as you go? You might also start from a character, or from world-building. Alternatively, you could stick to short fiction and just write separate unrelated scenes that appeal to you until you figure out the story you want to tell. Of course it might also just be a matter of pushing through.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Hi again from me as well 

I wrote some more short stories. Writing is going well, but not many other things are...


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lev said:


> I can't exactly say I'm perfect in that regard - it's been a few weeks and I'm not even 10k in - but I keep rediscovering, time and again, that writing something is better than writing nothing. Trying to force words feels absolutely awful, and generally I don't feel particularly good about it after either (unless something has somehow clicked during and I was inspired), but often after a break, or the next day, or sometimes as long as a few days later, I'm able to look back and see that with some moving around and rewording, there is a worthwhile scene or chapter to be made of what I believed all that time was garbled nonsense.
> But yes, it is incredibly difficult not to be so critical when in all honesty, you _don't_ know what you're doing.
> If you use the time you should be writing on actively planning or working out your scene (or character, or researching something relevant) though, I don't think that's anything to punish yourself over. And if not, well, we all have bad days.


You're definitely right, and the internal critic is one thing I'll have to beat back as I try to push my writing to a higher level. After all, if we're critiquing things to death, we're not really maximizing our creative talents.

Also agreed with the sentiment that writing feels better than not writing - and in fact, when I'm on a roll with writing something, it does come easy. I guess a lot of it is that first motivation, that first part in a day where you struggle to overcome lethargy and anxiety and whatnot to just get the writing going. It's that first hurdle that always beats me on the bad days.


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## ourwater (Jun 2, 2012)

I have not written in awhile. I did get my desk more organized.

IMG_0013 by trulietrice, on Flickr


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

ASB20 said:


> You're definitely right, and the internal critic is one thing I'll have to beat back as I try to push my writing to a higher level. After all, if we're critiquing things to death, we're not really maximizing our creative talents.


I have mixed feelings about that. Obviously if you're writing for yourself then you don't have to critique at all, but if you're writing for an audience than it's absolutely crucial. It all just depends on what you're planning to do. Some people definitely need to be really strict critics with their writing. Other people don't have to worry about it at all. It all just depends on you and what you're writing.

As far as first drafts go though, they're definitely the free, creative draft. Some people critique as they go and it works for them, but I think far more people (including me) just write and know that they'll worry about critiquing later. I think that's the most important thing: knowing that no matter what you initially put down, you can change it if it isn't working. There are times where I'll write a sentence or two and think "That's not working," but I'm more concerned with keeping things going to worry about such a small thing. I just tell myself that I'll get back to it and move on.

I've also heard multiple authors say that they end up deleting almost all of their first draft because it wasn't good enough. That thought absolutely terrifies me, and I have yet to actually get anywhere close to that while editing something.

I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore. Basically what I'm trying to say is that I don't necessarily think critiquing (even a ton) is necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on the writer, and some writers will critique a story until it's no longer even recognizable from the first draft. Critiquing only becomes a problem when you let it stop you from writing in the first place.

For me personally, telling myself that I can always change whatever I want later is really helpful for getting through the first draft. I don't know if that thought would be as useful to others though.


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## GothicTwilight (Oct 29, 2013)

I love writing stories alot ^^. I first started when I was 12. I was bored and I couldn't find a book that could entertain me, so I figured "Why not make one for myself?" My first story was pretty long (and now I can't find it). Last year, in my English class, we had a project on creating our own "Greek myth" story (about how something was created and it's effect on us now). I did one called "The Music Box" and my teacher wrote a note saying she loved it and it was so wonderful. That made me feel really glad about my writing :boogie


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

Ugh, I've been suffering severe writing anxieties lately. I have my NaNoWriMo project in beta, and the thought of having four (currently) people reading my writing is absolutely nerve-wracking. On top of that, my significant other is going through my first novel again for notes before I start on a second draft of that. I don't feel like I actively think of it all that much, but it's always there in the back of mind, and the anxiety poisons nearly everything else in my day too. I feel like I need to find at least one or two fellow writers to critique too, but just the thought of it is enough to stop me from even trying. Ugh. Bad place.

Edited to add in some actual relevance.



hmweasley said:


> Critiquing only becomes a problem when you let it stop you from writing in the first place.


And that is exactly the issue. For myself, at least, and I think many others writers, being critical enough isn't a problem. It's managing and containing that inner criticism to make sure we can actually put some words down at all. I'm sure there are some writers that get words out easily and do need to be very critical of themselves, but if you are of the overly critical mindset, it is helpful to hear and tell yourself that you need to beat or stop listening to your inner critic, even if doing so entirely would not be the best idea.


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## blueidealist26 (Dec 16, 2012)

If anyone is interested in the possibility of contributing to a fairly established online magazine, PM me for more details. Currently, payment is involved if you get more than 10 articles published (not a lot of money, but of course, many online magazines pay $0). Fiction stories and collections of 3 or so poems also count as articles.


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## AceEmoKid (Apr 27, 2012)

Nitrogen said:


> About AceEmoKid and her roommate
> 
> "Holla holla for the dolla, mm, Alex you hot, sexy mother****er," said your Christian roommate.
> She probably went to church to preach how ****ing sexy she thinks you are.
> ...


 omfg that was so good please write more i'm so turned on


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

I've probably asked this like several times already but how do you deal with being unmotivated to write? It's not necessarily writer's block - I already have a pretty good idea of what to write - it's just that I don't want to do it. 

Which is weird, because my book is a story I do want to tell, and I think about it a lot. I don't know why I don't feel like doing it.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Maybe it means more to you than you are conscious of?

Sometimes writing a story can lead to unexpected self-realisations.

If you don't want to write it, i suppose it is better not to. Write something else. Never push yourself on such issues 

Maybe in the meantime work more on your cool drawings


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> I've probably asked this like several times already but how do you deal with being unmotivated to write? It's not necessarily writer's block - I already have a pretty good idea of what to write - it's just that I don't want to do it.
> 
> Which is weird, because my book is a story I do want to tell, and I think about it a lot. I don't know why I don't feel like doing it.


For a moment, I thought I'd already answered this question, but now I recall that was about writing anxiety. (I think some of that advice still applies here though.)

The main thing is just building discipline. Make writing a habit every day. If you can set a certain time aside for it, all the better. Make it a ritual if you need.
Keep track of your progress. Mark off the days you've written in your calender, colour them in, or even use stickers. I do recommend using a physical calender, and putting it in your writing space or somewhere else it will catch your eye easily. You can also keep track of your word count per day. The nice thing about NaNoWriMo is that it makes it into a graph. Maybe something similar can be found somewhere online for use outside the month of November.
Set goals and deadlines, and stick to them. You can set rewards for them, but the most important thing is just having something to work towards. With a project as big as a novel, it's easy to feel overwhelmed, so cut it up into smaller chunks. Make your goals short-term and achievable, like this many words a day, finishing this chapter by the end of the week, or this high a word count before the end of the month.

If you find yourself procrastinating during your allotted writing time, try removing distractions from your writing space.
Another little thing that might help is telling the people in your daily life that you are writing, and setting them on the task of asking you about it every day/every time they see you for a bit of added shame and guilt.

I don't get the impression that you don't truly want to write this story. A novel is simply a long-term commitment. With the finish line so far off, anxiety and plain laziness get in the way, so I don't agree with Mersault: a bit of force is in order.


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Lev said:


> For a moment, I thought I'd already answered this question, but now I recall that was about writing anxiety. (I think some of that advice still applies here though.)
> 
> The main thing is just building discipline. Make writing a habit every day. If you can set a certain time aside for it, all the better. Make it a ritual if you need.
> Keep track of your progress. Mark off the days you've written in your calender, colour them in, or even use stickers. I do recommend using a physical calender, and putting it in your writing space or somewhere else it will catch your eye easily. You can also keep track of your word count per day. The nice thing about NaNoWriMo is that it makes it into a graph. Maybe something similar can be found somewhere online for use outside the month of November.
> ...


THANK YOU for the helpful advice. You're right, I need to be more disciplined. I will try some new ways to achieve that. Thank you!


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## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

Hey guys. When it comes to writing characters with specific mannerisms, how far do you think is too far? I like to write characters who have specific patterns of body language, for example a guy who always scratches his right ear when he's nervous. I also love to write characters who have a few of their own slang words that no other characters really use. I think it can be agreed that details like this help bring more life to a character and make them more realistic, but I know that it could become grating if taken too far.

"Is uh... y-you know, a character who... who kinda talks like this, with aaaaaa, a stutter of sorts a little too much? I mean it's not like they talk like that all the time, but... uh... sometimes it just sorta... well, it just sorta comes out."

"What about a kooky character who has really weird to the beard to the smeared to the bleared speech patterns and mannerisms, with an overall super-duper-kooky-looky way of tucka-lucka-talking, and sometimes she even uses completely made up words, which is totally weird, right? Like, eskrabading, who does that? But of course, she only talks like _that_ when she's _really_ happy. When she's serious, or angry, or scared, she totally talks normal because frankly that's no time to be a silly willy! Oh by the way, does anyone want coffee, cause I want coffee. Weeeee!"

I really love nuanced characters with quirks and mannerisms because honestly I'm the type of person who just kind of speaks gibberish like a total weirdo when I'm around people I'm comfortable with, like my family (or when I'm alone, haha). But I just don't want the characters in my book to come off as annoying. What do you think is a right balance, and a good way to maintain that balance?

Side note: Futuristic slang seems to be pretty divisive among people. When crafting a world I tend to prefer to come up with some of my own slang, but again it can be taken too far. What are your opinions on the issue?


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> I've probably asked this like several times already but how do you deal with being unmotivated to write? It's not necessarily writer's block - I already have a pretty good idea of what to write - it's just that I don't want to do it.
> 
> Which is weird, because my book is a story I do want to tell, and I think about it a lot. I don't know why I don't feel like doing it.


I agree with pretty much everything Lev said. It sounds just like the kind of resistance a lot of people have towards work in general. I feel the same way about doing my homework, and while we write because we enjoy it, it's still work. I think it's natural to just not want to write sometimes. I have to almost force myself to write each day because I'm often too lazy to do it otherwise. I don't even consider myself a lazy person, but I know writing can be mentally exhausting, which makes it hard to motivate myself on top of my homework.

What I do is set a certain word count I have to get each day. How much that is depends on what all I have to do that day. This semester I have a fairly heavy workload, so there are three days each week where I don't write at all because I'm doing school work. On weekends I write the most. I have to get those words written that day, but I also break it up into sections. Once I get a certain amount written, I take a break and do something rewarding like read, go online, watch TV, etc. I have to set a certain amount of time beforehand though or I'd never get back to writing.


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> Hey guys. When it comes to writing characters with specific mannerisms, how far do you think is too far? I like to write characters who have specific patterns of body language, for example a guy who always scratches his right ear when he's nervous. I also love to write characters who have a few of their own slang words that no other characters really use. I think it can be agreed that details like this help bring more life to a character and make them more realistic, but I know that it could become grating if taken too far.
> 
> I really love nuanced characters with quirks and mannerisms because honestly I'm the type of person who just kind of speaks gibberish like a total weirdo when I'm around people I'm comfortable with, like my family (or when I'm alone, haha). But I just don't want the characters in my book to come off as annoying. What do you think is a right balance, and a good way to maintain that balance?
> 
> Side note: Futuristic slang seems to be pretty divisive among people. When crafting a world I tend to prefer to come up with some of my own slang, but again it can be taken too far. What are your opinions on the issue?


As far as mannerisms, I think anything that doesn't detract from the narrative, plot, and character growth (unless the mannerism is part of that growth or not) is fair game. I agree - I'm a big fan of seeing mannerisms pop up in various ways, as it helps to build a character. Hagrid from _Harry Potter_ lore wouldn't be the same without his 'yer' and ****. That doesn't detract from the narrative, either. Darth Vader's whack breathing doesn't detract from the narrative as well, but it's also something that's become iconic.

As far as slang...I'm a little more shades of gray about that. Things like the "yer" from Hagrid I think are fine, but when you start dipping into the well too often - think "slint-head" from _The Maze Runner_ - it gets really grating and starts to overwhelm the story. In fact, in my opinion, the _Maze Runner_ YA series is a perfect example of how _not_ to write colloquialism. I have no idea how that series became popular. Simple things that people can understand easily (yer) are fine. When you take it too far (I'd even argue that _Thief_'s "taffer" might be too far), it gets really grating. I'd err on the conservative side.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

TheHopeless said:


> Hey guys. When it comes to writing characters with specific mannerisms, how far do you think is too far?


Quirks and mannerisms can indeed bring life to a character, but when taken too far, they aren't just grating: they achieve the exact opposite. It's fine to do this with the odd side character that puts in an appearance or two, but with main characters (and important supporting cast), take care that a mannerism doesn't swallow them whole and become their one defining trait. When taken to extremes, a quirk can overshadow every other part of the character and make them seem not just annoying, but one-dimensional.
"They have a stutter," should never be the first thing a reader notes about a character if asked to describe him or her. Ideally, they will not note the specific quirk or mannerism at all, but rather say something along the lines of, "They are nervous/awkward/shy." That is where the balance lies, in my opinion. Quirks and mannerisms should be subtle, present in the background to provide a sense of realism and "life" but not jumping out at you, and ideally supporting of a character's other traits.
Speech mannerisms are something to be particularly careful with, because they are very front and center and nearly impossible to miss. I think both of your examples are pushing it, but I imagine I could feel sympathetic towards the stutterer in the right context. The excitable one is a bit much, for me. You'll find your characters already speak quite differently if you simply take into the account the "basics" of age, intelligence, eloquence, confidence, introversion/extraversion, personal goals and opinions, and level of expertise and interest in the topic discussed - before you start adding on anything extra.

The viewpoint you're using is also quite important. From personal experience, I've found it's quite difficult to convey a main character's quirks and mannerisms in first-person, unless they are particularly self-conscious or self-aware, since quirks and mannerisms tend to to be subconscious. I experience the same with viewpoint characters in third-person limited, though it should be noted that I do a very close-up third-person limited. I would personally not put in more than a few mentions across the entire story. If the quirk or mannerism is particularly important, a supporting character could draw attention to it by asking about it. A more elegant way is to have the mannerism or quirk be inconvenient to a situation somehow, and draw attention to it by having the character (try to) suppress it.
It's certainly easier to describe the quirks of non-viewpoint characters in both first-person and third-person limited, though obviously you should take into account how observant and interested your viewpoint character truly is. For example, if they have known this other character for years, they might have grown so accustomed they might not note it anymore often than their own quirks.
Third-person omniscient is a free-for-all when it comes to this sort of description, as long as you maintain that balance. Obviously a small mannerism like scratching one's ear is not as quick to grate as something more outlandish.

I'm personally not a fan of made-up slang, though I don't see how it should bother me much if it's done in moderation. I do think made-up proverbs have a certain charm.


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

I've been mulling a question over in my head that I think I really need to ask - especially since I'm currently blending genres a bit in my current work.

This is going to sound pretentious as all get out from me, but how much do you all think young adult readers comprehend deeper, more serious or "adult" themes? I know as writers we shouldn't think about audience too much when writing - the story just needs to come out, after all - but I do like to keep the big picture in mind. 

I'm writing a YA story right now, and while I have a lot of traditional young adult themes woven in, I'm also exploring including things such as how greed, politics, and money affect things like family bonds and betrayal - things that young adults might not be as familiar with or understand. I know I'll probably include such topics any way, but I wonder just how far I should dive into them when keeping readership in mind.

I'm not looking to get as technical as a Clancy or Crichton, per se - although they're among my most respected authors of the modern era - but I don't want to just gloss over some themes without a certain amount of depth, either. I'm not interested in just writing a paint-by-numbers by story.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

ASB20 said:


> I've been mulling a question over in my head that I think I really need to ask - especially since I'm currently blending genres a bit in my current work.
> 
> This is going to sound pretentious as all get out from me, but how much do you all think young adult readers comprehend deeper, more serious or "adult" themes? I know as writers we shouldn't think about audience too much when writing - the story just needs to come out, after all - but I do like to keep the big picture in mind.
> 
> ...


I'm not a YA writer or reader, but I think you shouldn't underestimate your readership. If your exploration of these themes is centered around your main character(s), I don't think you should be running into any issues at all. I think I might be a bit more conservative with something like complex high-end politics taking place in the background, but that doesn't really seem like what you are aiming at. Keep it focused and personal to the characters and I think you can write just about anything.


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## ourwater (Jun 2, 2012)

IMG_0035 by trulietrice, on Flickr

I got a 4K monitor and a TV console using some retro SSI money. The computer I bought using a tax refund, speaking of which I need to get done.

I think that my psychiatrist wants to place me on Abilify. I'll find out next month.


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## Lev (Sep 26, 2013)

This might not be the right place to post this, but considering the Arts section and this topic in particular are responsible for nearly all of my post count, I'd say this is the only place to do this.

I've decided to leave SAS. 
You have been wonderful company and I've thoroughly enjoyed being a (perhaps overly vocal) part of this ongoing discussion on all things writerly, but from this site as a whole, I'm simply not getting what I need.

I'll change around some notification preferences after I post this so I'll know if anyone still messages or quotes me, and I think there's always an option of e-mailing me, so if anyone should sorely miss my particular brand of exhaustive wall-of-text posting, there is a way.
Honestly, I think it would be great to keep in touch with some of you, but I'd rather leave like this and be happily surprised if someone does decide to contact me than leave on a sour note of a handful of awkwardly worded and ignored messages and brief, failed conversations.

You have made this a tough decision, and maybe somewhere down the line I'll change my mind, but this seems like the right choice for me at this point in time. 
The best of luck to all of you in all your future endeavours, writing and otherwise. I know you'll do great.

-Lev


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lev said:


> This might not be the right place to post this, but considering the Arts section and this topic in particular are responsible for nearly all of my post count, I'd say this is the only place to do this.
> 
> I've decided to leave SAS.
> You have been wonderful company and I've thoroughly enjoyed being a (perhaps overly vocal) part of this ongoing discussion on all things writerly, but from this site as a whole, I'm simply not getting what I need.
> ...


Sorry to see you go Lev; your posts were always among the best on SAS in terms of thought and empathy put into them. As is the case, though, you gotta do what's best for you. Best of luck in your writing and wherever the next road leads.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Good luck Lev 
In writing, and the rest of life.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

ASB20 said:


> This is going to sound pretentious as all get out from me, but how much do you all think young adult readers comprehend deeper, more serious or "adult" themes? I know as writers we shouldn't think about audience too much when writing - the story just needs to come out, after all - but I do like to keep the big picture in mind.


As someone who still reads YA and just recently got out of the demographic (I suppose I would be in that new New Adult category now), I think they comprehend it completely. Of course, different teenagers will be on different levels, but many of theme will completely get it. By the time you're in high school, most teenagers have experienced a lot of that stuff for themselves. Besides, if they don't get it, then they'll gravitate to different books. Also, I hate to sound pretentious or anything, but I feel like the ones that read more (and therefore are more likely to pick up a book tackling such themes) are a bit more likely to be more mature about certain things as well.

I think some of the biggest, most successful young adult books cover some pretty heavy stuff. I mean, there are a lot of different directions you could go with "adult" themes, but most of the books I read in YA discuss some heavy stuff.


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## bobby. (Mar 29, 2011)

How can I make this sound less archaic? Is it even correct?

"And as did all the phony wealth evaporate, our apparent advances in gender equality will too reveal themselves an illusion."


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

to be an illusion? As an illusion?

I think it's kind of difficult to rephrase it without more context.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Oob said:


> How can I make this sound less archaic? Is it even correct?
> 
> "And as did all the phony wealth evaporate, our apparent advances in gender equality will too reveal themselves an illusion."


I think it's a bit hard to tell how it should be worded since there's no context. As far as I can tell, it seems to be grammatically correct, but I had to read it a few times to get an idea of what you're trying to say. I'm still not really sure what you're saying, but that could very well be lack of context than how it's worded.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

:\
Just got a reply from a publishing house.

They said that i write great etc etc, but it seems they cannot publish the collection of short stories..

They asked to meet me, though, so as to present their views on my work, so i guess this is positive.

According to the statement, their main issue was that some of the stories i sent have been printed in lit magazines. I replied that only three in that collection have been printed, and i can replace them.

Anyway, i know this is not really a horrible reply, but i am sad that again my *amazing* collection was not readily accepted. The nerve those people have


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## perennial wallflower (Feb 17, 2014)

Oob said:


> How can I make this sound less archaic? Is it even correct?
> 
> "And as did all the phony wealth evaporate, our apparent advances in gender equality will too reveal themselves an illusion."


Simple language is almost always better, imo. "Like the phony wealth of the past, our apparent advances in gender equality will evaporate/will be revealed to be an illusion/such-and-such." And as did sounds like something out of a 1950's political document or one of those fanfictions that calls eyes orbs.


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## Morpheus (May 26, 2006)

"Just as all the phony wealth evaporated, our apparent advances in gender equality will also reveal themselves as an illusion."


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

Oob said:


> How can I make this sound less archaic? Is it even correct?
> 
> "And as did all the phony wealth evaporate, our apparent advances in gender equality will too reveal themselves an illusion."


I'd simplify it. Always a plus to say something in as few words as possible.

I'll give it a go without context..."As our wealth evaporated, so too did our illusory advances in gender equality."

Short, simple, to the point. Although context would make a good transition between the sentence's two clauses.


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## bobby. (Mar 29, 2011)

Thanks guys. I ended up going with "In any case, a sober wake-up call could soon follow. Just as the phony wealth on the NASDAQ vanished overnight in '00, our apparent advances in racial and gender equality might too reveal themselves an illusion".

You can read the whole thing here: http://goo.gl/Xim6M3


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## eren (Feb 15, 2014)

Hi everyone! :>

I contributed (read: spammed) more on the Drawing Thread but honestly I don't really like drawing. I like building a story. My English isn't really good, however, so for now I only write in my native language. Right now, during my spare time, I'm working on my long neglected project, After:Life. Took me over 3,5 years to finish the plot outline (yep, I'm lazy like that...). I want to make it in light novel format and later, if possible, comic/manga.

After:Life set in near future where computer and surgery technology take a great leap. It's a story of people being resurrected from death through whole brain emulation (called digital metempsychosis in-universe). They're inhibiting 'substitute bodies' called Vessel, made from human body parts cut, sewn, and molded to create a desired look. Robotic Vessels are available but not everyone wants to live in a cold anorganic shell... so they hunt other human and take their bodies/body parts.

I've never really discussed the whole story with anyone, though, since I'm not really confident... I'm looking for someone who can give feedback, perhaps a beta-reader? 

Err. Okay. That's all. I'll continue lurking on this thread :'D
*hides*


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Eren, I think that sounds like an amazing idea for a story. There's a lot of potential there. I also love the idea of you making it into a comic or manga. That's an awesome idea of combining both drawing and writing, since you seem to enjoy both.


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## ASB20 (Jun 5, 2013)

eren said:


> Hi everyone! :>
> 
> I contributed (read: spammed) more on the Drawing Thread but honestly I don't really like drawing. I like building a story. My English isn't really good, however, so for now I only write in my native language. Right now, during my spare time, I'm working on my long neglected project, After:Life. Took me over 3,5 years to finish the plot outline (yep, I'm lazy like that...). I want to make it in light novel format and later, if possible, comic/manga.
> 
> ...


I'm always a fan of transhumanist ideas, and this is an interesting concept - particularly as far as mind uploading goes, as it's running around the tech circles as of late.

I would make sure you think everything around your main concept through, however. Readers often are nitpicky, and they'll ask questions. Ie, why hunt people when we can grow noses, ears, kidneys, etc. in a lab? Can a synthetic AI inhabit a human body? Etc. Little things.

Regardless, good concept.


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## eren (Feb 15, 2014)

hmweasley said:


> Eren, I think that sounds like an amazing idea for a story. There's a lot of potential there. I also love the idea of you making it into a comic or manga. That's an awesome idea of combining both drawing and writing, since you seem to enjoy both.


Thank you  I'm trying to dig all potentials from the big picture to the personal close-ups ^^

Making manga takes a lot of effort though, I hope I'll get the chance someday.



ASB20 said:


> I'm always a fan of transhumanist ideas, and this is an interesting concept - particularly as far as mind uploading goes, as it's running around the tech circles as of late.
> 
> I would make sure you think everything around your main concept through, however. Readers often are nitpicky, and they'll ask questions. Ie, why hunt people when we can grow noses, ears, kidneys, etc. in a lab? Can a synthetic AI inhabit a human body? Etc. Little things.
> 
> Regardless, good concept.


Thank you 

I had thought about those little questions too, and (I think) they're all answered within the story. It's possible to grow body parts from stem cells but they tend to die faster (cells growth rate is amplified but their telomere is limited, almost reaching its terminal point where apoptosys occur; added telomerase increase rick of cancer, and so on). Also the transhuman group--especially the leaders--has screwed moral, in which they regard criminals, mentally-retarded, 'degenerate' people unworthy of life and should be killed and harvested. When there is no 'degenerates' left, they'll either upgrade to robotic vessel, or continue using lab-grown bio-vessel requiring faster 'spare part' replacement.

Yes, a synthetic AI can inhibit human body; in fact, the creator of digital metempsychosis method was an AI that autonomously evolved from a virtual human brain.


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## Mersault (Dec 18, 2012)

Good luck Eren


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## ourwater (Jun 2, 2012)

A new typewriter ribbon should be arriving today.


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## ourwater (Jun 2, 2012)

I bought a new typewriter.


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