# Is everyone here an agnostic?



## snowfly (Dec 14, 2008)

Obviously not everyone is, but I can't help notice "religion:agnostic" on everyone's profile I check. Is that all just a coincidence?


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## Whimsical Thought (Dec 13, 2008)

I was wondering the same thing. :um
But there is a spirituality section so I guess not.


I also have noticed a few Atheist.


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## Jinnix (Jul 6, 2006)

I don't believe in any organize religion but a lot of the time I feel like there has to be something more, like a higher order. Maybe its God, but I don't know. Would I count as agnostic?


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## dullard (Aug 4, 2008)

I am an atheist.

In my teens I had a lot of time to think philosophise, I am now a cheerful nihilist.


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## dontcare (Oct 6, 2008)

I was just going through the questionnaire in the Coping forum. There were a LOT of atheists and agnostics. Feel free to read into it. :b

p.s. don't jump on me, I still haven't figured out what agnosticism is.


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## solasum (Nov 17, 2008)

It's interesting. On SAF, I had a poll for religion, and nearly half were either agnostic or atheist. It's interesting because on average (according to BBC poll), 15% of the pop. of developed countries are atheists or agnostics.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

agnostic here


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

woop woop atheist here.

I figured a lot of people were religious on this forum due to the Spirituality forum which always seems decently active. I guess I never really looked too hard at the distrubution of it all.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

I'm a Catholic.


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## rachelynn (Sep 12, 2008)

nope im not.
coincidence? what do you mean?


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## thetrial (Sep 14, 2008)

I'm somewhere between Agnosticism and Buddhism. And I do believe in spirituality, if not necessarily religion.


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## ilikebooks (Nov 26, 2008)

Pastafarian here (which counts as atheist, I suppose  ). The majority of people I know in my city are atheist/agnostic, but perhaps it's because I tend to talk to them more, since I don't have to worry about offending them.


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## MissMay1977 (Oct 25, 2008)

I am a christian.


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## Ally (Jan 12, 2007)

I'm Wiccan.


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## Pompadour (Dec 10, 2008)

I'm a hardcore Christian. A soldier in the army of heaven you might say. I'm here to save all of you agnostics from yourselves.


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## dontcare (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm not Christian :b Are you here to save me too?


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

ilikebooks said:


> Pastafarian here (which counts as atheist, I suppose  )


Hey are you saying my god doesn't exist? :spank


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## flapjacker (Nov 30, 2008)

Agnostic here. I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Squirrelevant (Jul 27, 2008)

I've recently made the move from agnosticism to atheism.


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

I'm an atheist.


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## Freiheit (Dec 8, 2008)

I am.


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## snowfly (Dec 14, 2008)

> I've recently made the move from agnosticism to atheism.


So have I.

Is there some correlation with having SA and lack of belief?
I can't think of why it would affect the majority but I have always been socially alienated by religion when I was young (ex. friend's mom banned us from being friends cause I gave her an 8-ball for her birthday).


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

*I am a created image of a perfect, healthy, loving, creative spirit. The more I remind myself of each moment's divinity, the more I reset my mind, body and chemical make-up to allign with wholeness and the spirit that created me. So I guess that's ...no?! :lol *


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## solasum (Nov 17, 2008)

I consider myself a Deist.


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## russophile1977 (Jan 16, 2006)

Growing up I was atheist, a few years ago I decided I was agnostic and now I'm thinking about converting to Christianity.


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## quietgal (Oct 18, 2007)

I was Christian growing up, then I became agnostic leaning towards atheism, but now I guess I'm more or less deist.


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## christ~in~me (Dec 18, 2008)

born again christian here.


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## Sierra83 (Sep 24, 2007)

I suppose I have been an atheist/agnostic for some time, though I don't really understand what they mean. A friend recently sent me some info about The Church of Satan and although I was initially quite put off about the whole idea, I looked into it more and am becoming more interested in the philosophy. I bought the Satanic Bible (from Amazon off all places!) and am looking forward to reading it.


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## JFmtl (Dec 23, 2008)

I was catholic in my childhood, but i'm agnostic now. No organised religion convinced me that they are THE one and probably none will.


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## Meli24R (Dec 9, 2008)

I consider myself an agnostic although I'm leaning towards atheism.


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## bluebells7243 (Dec 4, 2008)

I'm agnostic as well. Eventually I'll probably become atheist, I'm certainly leaning that way now.


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## styler5 (Oct 7, 2006)

I was a Christian in childhood, then an atheist until high school junior year, since then have been an agnostic.


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## Mr Deuce (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm Agnostic and a Symbolic (or LaVeyan) Satanist. I also like Taoism a lot. :b


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## SAgirl (Nov 15, 2003)

My belief: 
Naturalistic Spirituality 
or Spiritual Naturalism 
Adherents believe that Nature, in all its diversity and wonder, is sufficient unto itself in terms of eliciting the intellectual and emotional responses associated with spiritual experience

I believe that God is in nature all around us. Look how beautiful a sunset is this has to be the work of a higher power or look how gorgeous a pink winter sky is.

I was raised catholic but disagree with many of their beliefs among them no birth control, no sex before marriage, or the exclusion of gay marriage.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

I believe in a creator and a God but not the Christian version. I believe in one that is unknown and whose intentions are unknown.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

quietgal said:


> I was Christian growing up, then I became agnostic leaning towards atheism, but now I guess I'm more or less deist.


Me too. I mean, the deist part. There aren't many of us around.


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## solasum (Nov 17, 2008)

dax said:


> Me too. I mean, the deist part. There aren't many of us around.


No, it's true. I always went to church with my family and celebrated Christmas, but recently I started to think for myself. I think anything's possible... I think it just makes sense that God exists.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

solasum said:


> No, it's true. I always went to church with my family and celebrated Christmas, but recently I started to think for myself. I think anything's possible... I think it just makes sense that God exists.


Yea, thats how I see it. I think a universe without a God or creator just doesn't fly...how can something so complex just appear out of nowhere?


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

Ex-Catholic here. Atheist now and happier than ever.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

SilentLoner said:


> Ex-Catholic here. Atheist now and happier than ever.


I don't know how Atheism can make anyone happy. If I was an atheist it would only add to my depression. It would make everything seems just that much more pointless. At least at this point I'm hoping there is a point to going through this life, like I am learning some kind of lesson of it.


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

dax said:


> I don't know how Atheism can make anyone happy. If I was an atheist it would only add to my depression. It would make everything seems just that much more pointless. At least at this point I'm hoping there is a point to going through this life, like I am learning some kind of lesson of it.


I've never really understood that perspective. I thought things were pointless back when I was religious, that there was a god figure supposedly watching over us but had an endless bag of excuses about how he worked (or didn't). By comparison things are pretty clear now and make perfect sense. 
My mantra is that things don't happen for a reason, things happen and reasons can be attached to them.


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## snowfly (Dec 14, 2008)

I don't get it either.
If I was religious that might make me even more depressed, feeling like I was being watched and judged every second of my life, not being able to do what I wanted in fear of burning for all eternity. I see "FEAR GOD" a lot on the back of cars, that makes me sad. No one should have to live their life in fear of something that doesn't even exist.


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## fortysixand2 (Jun 26, 2008)

I am an atheist neopagan.



dax said:


> I don't know how Atheism can make anyone happy. If I was an atheist it would only add to my depression. It would make everything seems just that much more pointless. At least at this point I'm hoping there is a point to going through this life, like I am learning some kind of lesson of it.


I have no problem answering this question. I was raised Roman Catholic. I was abused & so was my mother. I have PTSD because of it. My family bailed my dad out of jail many times. I do not forgive my family thus if there is a God, which I personally think there is not, then it would be Depressing for me to keep faith in such an evil being who chose to do nothing.

"The only true evil is when good people do nothing."

That is reality for me. Today I am both atheist and neopagan. True blooded heathen through and through. I am comfortable now that I am not conforming to what I personally consider to be the idiocy of others.

This is my path, not my father's, not my grandparents and not any god's.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

snowfly said:


> Obviously not everyone is, but I can't help notice "religion:agnostic" on everyone's profile I check. Is that all just a coincidence?


I once saw a humorous quote that said calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

And SAS does contain a very large percentage of agnostics & atheists, perhaps 50%+; certainly vastly higher than the general population. I'm not fully sure why this is.


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## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

:lol

The Google ad at the bottom of my page. "The God Who Wasn't There" DVD.

"Irreverently lays out the case that Jesus Christ never existed." - Newsweek
"Provocative - to put it mildly." - Los Angeles Times


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## solasum (Nov 17, 2008)

I think it's very interesting that there are so many atheists and agnostics here. I mean, what makes sociophobes atheists? Or... what makes atheists sociophobes? Shouldn't there be a religious sample here representative of the general population?

"What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason." -Voltaire


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

IllusionOfHappiness said:


> :lol
> 
> The Google ad at the bottom of my page. "The God Who Wasn't There" DVD.
> 
> ...


I reccomend watching it, it's really interesting.



solasum said:


> I think it's very interesting that there are so many atheists and agnostics here. I mean, what makes sociophobes atheists? Or... what makes atheists sociophobes? Shouldn't there be a religious sample here representative of the general population?


I think it might have to do with increased independence that most people with SA have (whether by choice or not). Gives you the chance to think away from the crowd influence. Organized worship often involves being social to some degree.
But that's just my guess. I don't think atheism had anything to do with my SA.


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## shyguy246 (Apr 27, 2006)

I'm not really agnostic, I just have a bipolar-type relationship with God. Right now, I'm pissed off at the world, and it's all his fault. Eventually, that will change and I'll thank him for it.


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## a123 (Apr 10, 2007)

Atheist. Agnostics are really just people who are too afraid to identfiy themselves as atheists.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

SilentLoner said:


> I've never really understood that perspective. I thought things were pointless back when I was religious, that there was a god figure supposedly watching over us but had an endless bag of excuses about how he worked (or didn't). By comparison things are pretty clear now and make perfect sense.
> My mantra is that things don't happen for a reason, things happen and reasons can be attached to them.


I think you are confusing religion and belief in God. Just because one believes in God does not mean they adhere to religious tenets. And just because you didn't happen to like a particular religion it doesn't mean God doesn't exist. I get this a lot with atheists. It seems the majority of the ones I've talked to are atheist mostly because they don't like religion, not necessarily because they've given the logic or illogic of a creator much thought.

I am not saying being irreligious is depressing. I am saying that atheism requires you to believe that ultimately life is a meaningless accident, and that would add to any depression. I am sure there are those type A personality people who don't think about things like that and wouldn't be depressed no matter what they thought. But for someone who is depressed, believing that there is a God (as I do, out of logic, not faith) you at least you feel that there is some purpose for living, that perhaps you may be learning or growing towards other ends.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

snowfly said:


> I don't get it either.
> If I was religious that might make me even more depressed, feeling like I was being watched and judged every second of my life, not being able to do what I wanted in fear of burning for all eternity. I see "FEAR GOD" a lot on the back of cars, that makes me sad. No one should have to live their life in fear of something that doesn't even exist.


I think you are also confusing religion and God. God is god. Religion is a man-made creation, not a God-made one.I'm not religious, I believe in a creator, not a religion. In many respects, atheism is also a religion. At least many atheists I have talked to seem to be religious about their anti-religion rather than viewing atheism as a logical belief. When I ask atheists why they are atheist, they tend to tell me why religion is bad rather than explain why they're beliefs are accurate.

I think there is a huge difference in believing in a God (God, not a set of religious tenets) versus being an atheist and it's impact on state of mind. If you think that the universe and all the life in it is just a random accident and will one day just vanish into nothingness, then what is the point of pursing anything or holding any kind of moral value (i.e. don't hurt or kill for reasons other than you might get caught) as you will just die off as if you never existed in the first place. However, if you have thought about it logically and based on the evidence available to you decided that existence would not be possible without a vastly intelligent creator, then this gives you hope that you can grow beyond being simply an instinct driven animal who will just live a meaningless life and then die.

And assuming there is no God, life is in fact meaningless. If you believe that people are just animals, then you have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of an animal? And the purpose of an animal is simply to exist and procreate so that it replaces itself once it dies. Not much meaning in that. Some people will argue that they give themselves meaning through doing various hobbies or whatever. But thats just an excuse to get their minds off the sad fact that ultimately there is no point or meaning to life. Life has only one purpose: to exist. And just existing does not give you any more meaning than a rock that just exists.

So to sum up I guess- life is pointless and meaningless. This is depressing. A belief in God (out of logic, not fear) gives you hope that there is something beyond this grey sky and we're here to do some kind of learning or experiencing so we can move on and grow. This to mean sounds far less depressing than thinking I am just a meaningless walking talking combination of atoms who will just die and cease to exist, and it was all for nothing.


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

dax said:


> I think you are confusing religion and belief in God.


I'm not.



dax said:


> It seems the majority of the ones I've talked to are atheist mostly because they don't like religion, not necessarily because they've given the logic or illogic of a creator much thought.


Its the opposite with me. My basis for my atheism is the latter, the entire logic for a creator is faulty IMO. I happen to dislike religion because they worship an illogical creator. Most other atheists I know are the same.



dax said:


> I am not saying being irreligious is depressing. I am saying that atheism requires you to believe that ultimately life is a meaningless accident, and that would add to any depression.


What is wrong with that? Personally, I find that idea (accidental start) far more fascinating than intentional creation any day. Meanings are attached to things by humans.

No offense to anyone, but even when I was catholic I thought that needing a reason for life or destined purpose was kinda pathetic.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

fortysixand2 said:


> I am an atheist neopagan.
> 
> I have no problem answering this question. I was raised Roman Catholic. I was abused & so was my mother. I have PTSD because of it. My family bailed my dad out of jail many times. I do not forgive my family thus if there is a God, which I personally think there is not, then it would be Depressing for me to keep faith in such an evil being who chose to do nothing.
> 
> ...


Again, you are the third atheist I have said this to. You should believe in atheism because you find it to be a logical belief, not because you had a bad experience with or don't like a religion. I don't believe in God as a reaction to atheists. I do so based on logical reasoning. Just because religions can be lousy, it doesn't impact whether there is a God or not.


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

> I think there is a huge difference in believing in a God (God, not a set of religious tenets) versus being an atheist and it's impact on state of mind. If you think that the universe and all the life in it is just a random accident and will one day just vanish into nothingness, then what is the point of pursing anything or holding any kind of moral value (i.e. don't hurt or kill for reasons other than you might get caught) as you will just die off as if you never existed in the first place. However, if you have thought about it logically and based on the evidence available to you decided that existence would not be possible without a vastly intelligent creator, then this gives you hope that you can grow beyond being simply an instinct driven animal who will just live a meaningless life and then die.


"If human are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
-Albert Einstein

So you're saying that the only reason you don't hurt or murder other people is because an invisible sky man told you not to? That's toddler morality, don't do something because you're being watched. Last time I checked not many atheists end up on the news for murdering or hurting people.
I don't do any of those things because I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me or someone I knew.

I find your reasoning a little bit scary. I pursue what I want to do becuase I have one life to live and there are things I want to enjoy. The only thing we will have close to heaven can only be made here on earth, and work needs to be done to make it that way.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

SilentLoner said:


> I'm not.


I believe you were as you were pointing out the faults of religion based on my post and I am not religious at all and I wasn't making any religious statements. If you have a problem with religious people, take it up with them, not me. You were saying religion made you feel unhappy. I did not say religion would make you less depressed, I said a belief in God would. I'm not religious and it has nothing to do with the question of if there is a God or not so I think you were clearly confusing the two.



> Its the opposite with me. My basis for my atheism is the latter, the entire logic for a creator is faulty IMO. I happen to dislike religion because they worship an illogical creator. Most other atheists I know are the same.


I personally believe that the idea that the universe popped out of thin air from nowhere for no reason is pretty illogical, just about as illogical as the beliefs of religious people, such as Jesus parting the seas. I guess I will just never understand either set of belief systems. At least religious people come up with BS to cover the why and how of their belief systems. Atheists don't even bother to explain the why or how about the universe's creation.



> What is wrong with that? Personally, I find that idea (accidental start) far more fascinating than intentional creation any day. Meanings are attached to things by humans.


What is wrong with it? Well other than it being a false belief, it is a belief that would also add to a person's depressed outlook. Meanings can't be attached to the meaningless. There is a difference between meanings and diversions. Most people choose to occupy themselves with various activities to keep themselves busy. There is no inherent meaning in any of that anymore than there is meaning in what a rock does. There is no difference between a person and an animal. An animal exists to exist. It hunts to exist, not for any meaning. Likewise nothing a human does has any real meaning. And if humans create meaning that means that anything and everything, including conflicting values can have meaning or be meaningful- so therefore meanings are meaningless.



> No offense to anyone, but even when I was catholic I thought that needing a reason for life or destined purpose was kinda pathetic.


What I think of as pathetic are people who busy themselves with diversions to keep the big questions about life off their minds rather than ask why. They can keep playing their X-Boxes or whatever and I'll keep on looking at the stars and asking why.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

SilentLoner said:


> "If human are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
> -Albert Einstein
> 
> So you're saying that the only reason you don't hurt or murder other people is because an invisible sky man told you not to? That's toddler morality, don't do something because you're being watched. Last time I checked not many atheists end up on the news for murdering or hurting people.
> I don't do any of those things because I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me or someone I knew.


Ha! Way to put words in my mouth. You're also still confusing religion and logical belief in God I see.

I don't think it is right to kill another person, because I think of them as more than just pointless and meaningless clogs in the mechanics of the universe. I look at them as being on an amazing journey, as someone in the same boat as I am, and someone who deserves the same chance I have to figure out why they are here. I believe these things not because I fear being punished for being wrong, but because I believe everyone should have the same shot at life as me. And I believe this because I think it is sacred for each person to live their life out in order to experience existence and hopefully grow and learn in such a way that a God would intend. I believe this because I believe in God, not because I fear God or just because society tells me this is how to behave. I believe people are more than smart animals or collections of atoms like atheists do. I believe they are sacred.

On the other hand if, as you say, each person attached meaning to life, then what if one person's meaning in life is to obtain as much power as possible by killing anyone who gets in their way? How can you question that person's meaning if we all have our own meaning in life? Just because the law says so? The law is just there to order society. If there is no God then we are all just random collections of matter, then what is the harm in ending the functioning of a human life if it tickles your fancy? Humans are just cosmic accidents according to atheists, just machines randomly generated by chance interactions between atoms, so why does any human life have an inherent right to exist at all? Don't get me wrong, I can see why atheists would want to make murder illegal- if it wasn't society would be in disarray and the point of society and government is to maintain order in an effort to better people's lives. But, ultimately, if there is no reason not to kill someone like I believe, then why not do it? After all a person is just a smart animal right? And we kill animals all the time.

As far as atheists not killing anyone, ever hear of a guy named Joe Stalin? He only killed about 20 million people.

And when did I ever say anything about an invisible sky man? The only invisible men in the sky are the ones in airplanes so far up they're invisible to the naked eye.



> I find your reasoning a little bit scary. I pursue what I want to do becuase I have one life to live and there are things I want to enjoy. The only thing we will have close to heaven can only be made here on earth, and work needs to be done to make it that way.


And I yours. If life has any meaning you want it to, you end up with Stalins and Hitlers and Bin Ladens. The ends justify the means, because we create our own sacred ends. But if the ends are independent of us, then we have no right to interfere in the lives of others. And what is the point of making life on Earth close to a form of heaven if you're just going to die and the Earth is just going to die anyway? Isn't that like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic?


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

The only reason this thread hasn't been locked yet is because it's past midnight. 

I feel a lock coming on.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

SilentLoner's point was you don't need to believe in god to be moral. And you don't.



> But, ultimately, if there is no reason not to kill someone like I believe, then why not do it?


Well, besides the fact that you'd run up against the law, there's the little thing called conscience. It would make normal people feel bad. Probably it's a trait selected for by evolution.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

Zephyr said:


> His point was you don't need to believe in god to be moral. And you don't.


That's right- you don't. And I'm thinking of being moral as not hurting other people. However, my point is that atheism and religion can be used as justifications for immoral (i.e. murderous) behavior. This has clearly been the case in the past. Look at the communists in Russia or the inquisition. But if you really truly believe in a benevolent God, then the only logical way for you to behave is to respect the rights of others. And I mean in general, not including things like fits of rage or whatever. Just because you don't believe this doesn't exclude you from being a very caring or good person. But if a lot of people see other people as just biological machines, there is a good chance they will end up being treated that way.



> Well, besides the fact that you'd run up against the law, there's the little thing called conscience. It would make normal people feel bad. Probably it's a trait selected for by evolution.


Fear of the law is the same thing as fear of God which is what he was critiquing. And what I was saying is that the belief that people are just animals leads to them being treated that way. If you are an atheist I would be curious to know why you think it is wrong to kill another person.


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## a123 (Apr 10, 2007)

dax said:


> Fear of the law is the same thing as fear of God which is what he was critiquing. And what I was saying is that the belief that people are just animals leads to them being treated that way. If you are an atheist I would be curious to know why you think it is wrong to kill another person.


Are you saying that atheists are heartless animals who have no compassion for anyone else that walks this planet? I am an atheist and have been ever since the day I was born and the thought of killing another person has never entered my mind. Really why would I want to harm another human being? I have empathy and I would never want to do anything to someone else that I wouldn't want done to myself. The reason I don't harm others is not because I fear what reprecussions there may be from the law or "god", it's because I actually do feel for others. Believers and non believers both do bad things (believers more so buts thats another subject). What joy or pleasure could I possibly get from harming a person simply becuase I don't believe in God?

If there was no laws or even the belief in the existence of a God, how many of us would go around killing and raping people? We are not morale just becuase we fear the consquences, most of us are morale becuase it is innate within us. Also, human's really are nothing but animals. We evolved from them and we are anything but perfect, most of us are quite selfish and do what is only beneficial for ourselves, but hey that's just part of life.

PS I don't really know what the hell I am talking about. Sorry if I've wasted your time.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

a123 said:


> Are you saying that atheists are heartless animals who have no compassion for anyone else that walks this planet?


Nope. Look at what I said.



dax said:


> Just because you don't believe this [in God] doesn't exclude you from being a very caring or good person


 I am just saying that atheism is based on the idea that people are just animals, just random accidental collections of atoms and there is nothing special about them. This outlook _could_ lead someone to devalue life just the way religious extremists (i.e. Osama Bin Laden) use their interpretations of God's will to justify their actions.



> I am an atheist and have been ever since the day I was born and the thought of killing another person has never entered my mind. Really why would I want to harm another human being? I have empathy and I would never want to do anything to someone else that I wouldn't want done to myself.


I guess I don't understand why you have empathy toward others if you believe that people are just animals, just a result of some cosmic accident. I understand you do and other atheists do, I just don't understand why you feel like that or how you can feel like that based on your belief that there isn't a fundamental value in human life if human life is just the same clay that makes up the rest of the universe. Some religious extremists lack empathy for others because they see them as being evil based on their understanding of God's will. Atheism on the other hand means there can be no right or wrong- right and wrong become subjective because there is no overruling reason to differentiate between the two. Each person decides what is right or wrong for them self because there is nothing higher than them to overrule them. How can random objects like rocks or animals or atoms or human beings be empathized with? If there is no God, then aren't we just collections of atoms no different than a rock, just organized in a different way due to some random accident of nature? As silentloner believes, _people_ attach meaning to life. This meaning is subjective. So if each person is his own God, and creates his own meaning, why can't he decide to kill if he wants, if that is what gives his life meaning? And if we all create our own meaning, how can you judge what others do? You can't. How can you say a killer is a bad person if they are just following their own meaning? And if we are just these objects created by a cosmic accident, why should you have any empathy for just an object?



> Believers and non believers both do bad things (believers more so buts thats another subject).


Ha! You sure about that? You ever hear of communism? You know how many innocent people those atheists killed?



> If there was no laws or even the belief in the existence of a God, how many of us would go around killing and raping people?


Methinks a lot.



> We are not morale just becuase we fear the consquences, most of us are morale becuase it is innate within us.


There is nothing moral innate in humans. People have been killing and raping and robbing each other for tens of thousands of years. And as I explained above, atheism means that morality is subjective, so if one person defines morality as killing everyone who gets in the way of achieving their goal, who is to say thats immoral? Society has laws to keep order. But that isn't morality. Innately we are selfish animals I'm sorry to say.

And what if a certain society was innately geared for strength (like ancient Sparta) and in this society it was considered immoral to be weak and so the weak were killed, and this was considered to be a great thing. This was their outlook on life. In this society killing someone like me or you would be moral! Not killing us would be immoral! And there wouldn't be a damn thing we could do or say about it because morality is subjective and we're just objects. The Spartans weren't totally atheists like the Communists, they were some sort of pagans but they were similar. This is what can happen if you look at people as just objects created randomly by chance interactions of atoms rather than as individuals with souls who have an inherent right to live and be free not because you happen to feel like they should or the law happens to say they should at that time, but because they were born into the universe that way with that inherent right.



> Also, human's really are nothing but animals. We evolved from them and we are anything but perfect, most of us are quite selfish and do what is only beneficial for ourselves, but hey that's just part of life.


And if animals don't have the moral right not to be killed, then why doesn't the same apply to people if we're just animals? This is what I am saying, an atheistic outlook can lead to one thinking like this because there is no reason or overruling point to respect life.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

If you're still making yourself confused, I recommend reading some of the essays at the Ebon Musings site. This one in particular is one of his foundational essays and deals with the question of atheism and morality:

The ineffable carrot and the infinite stick. It's long but very good.

He also maintains an excellent blog at www.daylightatheism.org.


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## ulman (Dec 25, 2008)

i'm an agnostic buddhist


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

Zephyr said:


> If you're still making yourself confused, I recommend reading some of the essays at the Ebon Musings site. This one in particular is one of his foundational essays and deals with the question of atheism and morality:
> 
> The ineffable carrot and the infinite stick. It's long but very good.
> 
> He also maintains an excellent blog at www.daylightatheism.org.


Thanks for the links.

And I'm sorry to everyone in this thread if I went a little too far or was rude...sometimes I can get a little competitive discussing these kind of issues. :doh


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## solasum (Nov 17, 2008)

SilentLoner said:


> So you're saying that the only reason you don't hurt or murder other people is because an invisible sky man told you not to? That's toddler morality, don't do something because you're being watched. Last time I checked not many atheists end up on the news for murdering or hurting people.
> I don't do any of those things because I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me or someone I knew.


It's probable that morality exists because so many religious people are scared. But most people are moral, religious or not. I'm not representing anyone but myself and my eccentric views. Believe it or not, I'm moral not because of God but because it makes sense. The reason I wouldn't kill someone is because I would go to jail. We do "good" things because it's in our best interest. It's cynical but it's the truth; and it's not a bad thing. IMO, every single thing we do in life benefits us in one way or another. Even if I decided to give you a thousands dollars, it would be because it would make me feel like a good person. I wouldn't steal or cheat because I could get in trouble, and because I feel more validated by working for my money. It's the law of humankind. As Rousseau said, it's our Social Contract. I don't wish to argue. I'm interested in different types of beliefs. My two cents. Did I get off-topic?


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

> Ha! You sure about that? You ever hear of communism? You know how many innocent people those atheists killed?


A lot, but not on the basis of atheism. And likely a lot less than religious persections of different faiths, witch hunts, the inqusition, crusades, centuries of strife between catholics and protestants in Europe, the justification for genocide and slavery in the Americas, and the fundamentalist groups such as the Taliban still killing innocent people and dividing the world to this day.


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

SilentLoner said:


> A lot, but not on the basis of atheism. And likely a lot less than religious persections of different faiths, witch hunts, the inqusition, crusades, centuries of strife between catholics and protestants in Europe, the justification for genocide and slavery in the Americas, and the fundamentalist groups such as the Taliban still killing innocent people and dividing the world to this day.


This just isn't historically accurate but I will refer you to my last post.  No point in beating a dead horse. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## espearite (Jan 2, 2009)

I don't even know what the term means, but I'd say I'm a spiritual person. I gave up religion a long time ago.


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## Sierra83 (Sep 24, 2007)

I would probably call myself an Agnostic. However, a friend of mine got me interested in Satanism. I wouldn't go so far as to label myself a Satanist, but the philosophy is definitely intriguing. Satanism has gotten a bad rap, much more so than Christianity. In fact, most Satanists start out as Agnostics or Atheists.


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## caithiggs (Jan 11, 2009)

pointy said:


> I've recently made the move from agnosticism to atheism.


Good on you! I'm currently in something of that process myself.



FairleighCalm said:


> *I am a created image of a perfect, healthy, loving, creative spirit. The more I remind myself of each moment's divinity, the more I reset my mind, body and chemical make-up to allign with wholeness and the spirit that created me. So I guess that's ...no?! :lol *


Well said. I'm not sure what exactly you believe in, but I think this sounds quite lovely.



a123 said:


> Atheist. Agnostics are really just people who are too afraid to identfiy themselves as atheists.


Do I smell a Dawkins fan here? He had some kind of term like "teacup atheists" or something. Oh I wish I could recall his analogy. It was humorous. Had something to do with a teacup being in orbit with a planet.

Myself personally, I have always stayed out of any kind of debate. I have some pretty radical ideas, I'm sure. I can definitely see myself leaning into more esoteric practices as I get older. I have always had occultic leanings, and as life goes on they get stronger and stronger. I love the idea of merging creativity, the occult, and science, all together into a beautiful sublime world view. Secretly, I have a strong distaste for the idea of Christianity. I admire many Christians. I would not like to offend Christian people. I am not at odds with Christianity as I never had to suffer being raised as one (although I've been to very scary Catholic churches who try to force the fear of guilt into you, and I think it's actually disgusting, although the church is filled with many good good people). I was raised on many Eastern religion world views. I'm not happy with the west at all. But I see the east and west as analogous to the left and right hemisphere of the brain. Both are necessary, both are useful. But I identify with one side more (and wish the Eastern thought was more integrated in the west so that I could become more confident to the world with my beliefs)

I love Richard Dawkins concept of being a militant atheist though, for my own weird reasons, and my belief in breaking paradigms. A lot of people think he's a pompous ***, but I find him quite endearing. So, if I were more mischievous, I would love to jump on the militant atheist train.


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## anzoh (Dec 17, 2008)

Christian here


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## Bredwh (Jan 24, 2009)

I guess I'm Agnostic. I believe there is no way to know which religion, if any, is right, so I don't follow any one religion and just live a good life. When I die, whoever's in charge will say:"Well he didn't really follow our religion, but he didn't follow any of the other ones either. Ah, what the heck, let him in."


I wish people would stop getting Atheism and Agnosticism confused or thinking they're the same. Agnosticism is as far from Atheism as from any other religion in my opinion Yes, I include Atheism as a religion as they believe something absolutely without any proof, just like all religions. Yes, Atheists I know you believe that no other religions are right because there is no evidence that their gods exist but the inherent natures of those gods/spirits etc. is that their is no evidence of their existence. This is of course convenient for those religions' believers but what can you do.

I think it is better to reserve judgment and not side with any direction. That may make me a fence sitter, but I like it up here.;D


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## Canadian Brotha (Jan 23, 2009)

The interesting thing about this debate is that after all the yelling is done I find not much has truely been explained, both sides have usually just continued digging their trenchs. I think the problem is that there isn't much consideration for what can be learned from the opposing point of view when the discussion begins. God & Spirituality can and often are 2 separate issues, there is God as an explanation & God as a spiritual force. The latter I think is more about self-reflection & the former about religious doctrine. 

I'm agnostic, I don't find religion explains much but it can be used for guidance & support. I think spirit is in us & among and how one relates to that is unique to them.


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## hyacinth_dragon (Dec 28, 2008)

I follow the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster!


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## milhouse (Jan 28, 2009)

atheist here.

my mom got us to read the bible over twice growing up.
in high school made my own decision, sided more with the scientific explanation, behind it all.

i dont have a problem with religious people, just when they try to shove their religion down my throat.

had a co-worker who was religious when to church the whole nine. he said i would go to heaven because i was a good person, so i guess im covered both ways

so when i die, if there is a heaven and hell or whatever, my first words would be "MY BADDDD!"


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## thisisfraser (Feb 2, 2009)

Was raised Catholic as a child but soon lost faith in the idea of any organized religion the more I learned about them. Too much power tripping and faith based bullying for my liking. Now I think of myself as more of a Buddhist than anything but can't really officially say I am one because I haven't gone thru their process. Should maybe change my religious status in my profile :um


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

I;m Catholic


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## Solitario (Aug 28, 2008)

dax said:


> There is nothing moral innate in humans. People have been killing and raping and robbing each other for tens of thousands of years. And as I explained above, atheism means that morality is subjective, so if one person defines morality as killing everyone who gets in the way of achieving their goal, who is to say thats immoral? Society has laws to keep order. But that isn't morality. Innately we are selfish animals I'm sorry to say.


This is very well said. A lot of secularist don't realize this, unfortunately.


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## Bredwh (Jan 24, 2009)

Morality _is_ subjective.


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## livinginfear (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm Catholic. I don't think I could have survived this long without believing in some sort of higher power. I would never have made it through childhood. God is like an invisible friend that I can take with me wherever I go, I just forget He's there sometimes and choose to carry my burdens alone. I wouldn't have had hope without belief in God. I feel like even if it turned out that there wasn't a God, my life on earth is better for having believed. It's a comfort to me, being someone who feels overwhelmed and like I don't belong in this world. I prayed my entire way to school every day as a little kid. I hated school so much, not the academics, but the social aspect. I'm quite certain there's a God or I'd have died of fear in Kindergarten! My desperation would be multiplied a hundredfold if I had to live with this condition and didn't believe there was a God who loved me and who could give me the strength to do all the things I so fear -- I feel for those who have this condition without that comfort. I still avoid what I can, but stuff like getting a job that you sometimes HAVE to do --I'm completely reliant on God to give me the strength to force myself to go.


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## stardog99 (Mar 22, 2008)

I'm agnostic I guess. I don't believe in organised religion, although I'd take buddhism above all the rest.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm a strong Atheist.

It's been said that calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color. And, yes, from polls that have been done here we always get the same result: a majority of SAS members are agnostic or atheist. That might explain why a spirituality forum gets relatively little traffic compared to the many other forums.


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## Attica! Attica! (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm "other".. I have strong, specific beleifs but not of any organized religion. Probably closest to Buddhism, but still very different. I went from:

Mormon -> Babtist -> Atheist -> Agnostic -> Buddhist -> "other"


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## dontcare (Oct 6, 2008)

UltraShy said:


> That might explain why a spirituality forum gets relatively little traffic compared to the many other forums.


It's a Christian forum really, which makes the intended audience even smaller. SAS is not the place I go for religious inspiration.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

dontcare said:


> SAS is not the place I go for religious inspiration.


:ditto Coming from another "other."


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## Fairyxo (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm agnostic, but I hadn't noticed other people's.


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## huh (Mar 19, 2007)

Technically, I consider myself a weak atheist. I've noticed a big population of other atheists/agnostics/etc here as well.

Really I hate to even call myself an atheist though. Not because of negative connotations but simply because I don't think I should have to label myself for something like that.


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## SoloSage (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm an Ignostic: a view that a coherent definition of god must be put forward before we can debate his/her/it's/ existence.


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

Faith based support. NOT for debate


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