# The desire to have children



## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

Did any of you always want children when you were growing up? In my heart I've always felt that raising a family was the end of a good life. As much as I try to tell myself that there's other purposes to life, and that I'd be a terrible parent, it still pains me deeply that I will die without a wife and children. This is one instinct or emotion within me that I can't reason myself out of. It is an endless cause of envy and destroyer of my peace of mind. I would ask how to let it go, but I don't want to let it go... it's been with me ever since I can remember. Just wondering if anyone else can relate?


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## Tetragammon (Jun 2, 2015)

It's funny, I really wanted children when I was younger. I thought that I was "supposed to" want them, though. Like I couldn't even imagine myself NOT wanting kids because I thought that would be "bad." The culture I grew up in put HUGE importance on getting married and having children -- even for people who really can't afford them, which is a damn shame. And people told me that I was good with kids, though I don't really know about that.

Now that I'm older I really don't want kids at all. I mean for one thing I've gotten a better grasp of just how much time, effort and money they take, from looking at all of my cousins and many old friends as they had these HUGE families. Then I consider all the starving children in this world and wonder why in holy hell I'd ever want to add one more. Plus the fact that this world is so incredibly ****ed up and I cannot imagine forcing a whole new life to go through it. I've obviously got a lot of problems, including mental illnesses -- and those are genetic. How could I risk passing them on? And then there's the terrible possibility that I could have a child with a severe disability, like one of my cousin's kids who has down syndrome. I know for a fact that I couldn't deal with that. 

Maybe it's all selfishness and fear -- whatever. In any case I'm perfectly content to have only MYSELF to look out for in this life, because I do a poor enough job of that! Ain't no way I could care for an entire family. I truly believe that some people would be far better off NEVER having children, and I happen to be one of them.


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## Twilightforce (Aug 7, 2016)

I do kind of want kids but on second thought, there's no one in this world that wants to have kids with me.


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## tea111red (Nov 8, 2005)

no. i think i'll only have kids if it's on accident or if i suddenly decide to have them. 

i always thought i'd be a bad parent, though.


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## Mr A (Oct 7, 2015)

I feel obliged to have a son because I have to "carry on the family name" and ****, although personally I don't really want a one. I think every parent wants their kids to become something special -- like an astronaut, a movie star, a lawyer, a doctor, a revolutionary etc. -- but very few ever actually become like this. Most just grow up to be nothing special at all, just like all the other kids; worse still some grow up to be Minecraft let's players lol.

Having a kid will just drop them headfirst into the dystopian world we live in today, and overpopulate the world every more. **** that.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Eh, once maybe.

But I would rather leave that to other people who actually enjoy doing tasks and things. My sister has children and she has to just do _stuff_ all day. Literally all day she is moving about doing things.

What kind of life is that?


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## Protozoan (May 26, 2014)

Maybe I will just end up looking after lots of dogs. Close enough.


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## Overdrive (Sep 19, 2015)

To have little black holes ?, no thanks lol


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

I have a son. He's 23 and I love him more than anything - but I also realise I would have had a lot more trouble raising him if there was no such thing as medication.

I've had a lifetime of mental health problems - social anxiety and bipolar disorder, so I've had lots of periods of unemployment. In a way that was good - we spent a lot of time together and we have a very close bond that will never be broken. I wish I had 5 more just like him. Kids are wonderful - but you're right OP, they're exhausting. The rewards are extraordinary though.

And @splendidbob - I still haven't quite gotten over that new avatar.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

I was discussing parenthood with a friend of mine who has a one year old. We both had similar style parents (they meant well, provided material stuff, but were very pushy, quite cold, and often irrational). He was worried he would go too far in the other direction (too relaxed). But I think he will be an excellent dad.

It is a difficult thing though, you have the responsibility of effectively moulding a person, and shaping what they will become and how they will be able to cope in the world. It is a massive responsibility that would terrify me.

@don it sounds like you were / are an awesome Dad. That you have a strong bond with your son pretty much guarantees you did a good job with the important stuff, imo


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

splendidbob said:


> I was discussing parenthood with a friend of mine who has a one year old. We both had similar style parents (they meant well, provided material stuff, but were very pushy, quite cold, and often irrational). He was worried he would go too far in the other direction (too relaxed). But I think he will be an excellent dad.
> 
> It is a difficult thing though, you have the responsibility of effectively moulding a person, and shaping what they will become and how they will be able to cope in the world. It is a massive responsibility that would terrify me.
> 
> @don it sounds like you were / are an awesome Dad. That you have a strong bond with your son pretty much guarantees you did a good job with the important stuff, imo


Thanks mate - I think I did a reasonable job. My son knows I love him and we're very close. That says a lot I think.

I didn't really think about it while I was doing it - I just did what I felt was right. I tried my best to be honest with him and he knew about things I was struggling with - all the pills etc. He even knew about a relationship I got involved with recently. He said it sounded too good to be true - and he was right. It was.


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## SilentLyric (Aug 20, 2012)

no, but im warming up to the idea. it would be nice to care for someone and see what kind of person they become.


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## bbrownleather (Jun 7, 2015)

i wish i could.


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## Cepp (Feb 8, 2010)

Yeah, I guess I'm at that age now but I would like a family to settle down with.


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## soulstorm (Jan 5, 2012)

Life without children exhausts me, I can only imagine with children. Maybe if I could peer through the portals of time and know for certain that me and my wife and child would all get along and live happily ever after, then I would make more of an effort to have kids. But as it stands right now, this world has seems to be devolving into a cesspool of anger and madness, and I don't feel inclined to bring another soul into this world.


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## Trooper (Apr 29, 2011)

I have always wanted to have children, but as time has moved on, I don't think that will ever be a possibility. And seeing as the world has changed quite a lot in such a short space of time, I don't think it would be fair now.


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## VacantLot (Jun 28, 2016)

Even as a child I always felt that procreation was wrong. The usual reason people (purposely) have children is because they think it was make them happy, and it probably does make the parents happy to some extent. But what about the child? They don't get any choice in whether or not they would like to be born. 

I wish my parents never had any children, but unfortunately the thought whether I would want to come into existence never even crossed their minds. If they wanted kids so much, they should have just adopted some that were already born and were in need of caring parents.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I think it would be interesting to teach a child new things. I enjoy teaching. There is a lot of risk with having children though. They might have birth defects or get into a catastrophic accident. That's rather scary. Many birth defects you can detect during pregnancy but many you can not. I'm very healthy physically but mentally not the best. I'm afraid if I have kids they might have autism since I have some tendencies in that direction. My worst nightmare is to become a carer of a severely disabled child that I couldn't put to sleep or whatever. 

I have been pregnant before and I don't think I could work during that time since I have severe morning sickness. I'm also sensitive to loud noise so I don't know how I would react chronic crying. I might shake the kid or put tape over their mouth if they made too much noise. Even with the cats I had in the past I trained them not to make lots of meow meow meow noise while "mommy" is sleeping. I don't take well to having my sleep disturbed.

If I think about it theoretically, it makes no sense to have children since the world is already overpopulated. Adoption I would not be keen on since kids that are up for adoption may have been abused or exposed to all sort of drugs during pregnancy. And they may have risky genetics. I enjoy cats a lot so that may be enough to fulfill my maternal instincts. Might get one small dog too.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I used to like the idea of having a child with someone I was in love with, and teaching them things and such. But I also thought it'd be cool to have a genetic child with someone, and see how our traits and such mixed but that's not a good reason lool. But anyway I didn't like the idea of being pregnant/giving birth so I'd think a lot about that, and the possibility of getting a surrogate but that seemed unrealistic and having someone else involved through the whole process would be awkward. On top of that I have too many issues, I wouldn't want to have children too late, risk of genetic stuff goes up with age, not freezing eggs (that's very expensive.) And adoption never really seemed appealing to me. And all of this was only really appealing if I found someone I really cared about too and who cared about me, kind of a package deal so that made it even more unlikely. I'd want to be at a certain stage financially/mentally of course and my life has been in a state of limbo for quite some time now, and is likely to continue that way for a while. I'd also want to travel and having children conflicts with that. 

But I don't think I thought about this while growing up tbh (and indeed I had no idea what sex was/how babies were made until late childhood anyway,) just a few times in early(/ier) adulthood I pondered.

I suppose I think that this is a fundamental Human experience that I'll be missing out on, and that's upsetting to me sometimes, I worry that I'll regret it, but I have too many problems that are in the way.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

I was afraid of getting pregnant when I was a kid. At the time, I didn't understand that I couldn't.

I grew up in a big family. I wanted to have kids. I still want to have kids, even though I can't. I used to read to my little brother, and I had to babysit my sisters all the time. I have stupid daydreams about raising kids all the time. I probably would have had 3 or 4. I think I would have enjoyed it a lot. Both my parents love kids, and I guess I got the same genes. I feel like I was wired to be a good parent. But I stay away from kids IRL because I look like a creep and I know how people think. I tell everyone I don't like kids. Lol.

I'm glad I couldn't have kids, though. With my genetics they probably would have turned out to be twisted little monsters like me. I'd adopt (my parents did that, too) but I'd never be accepted. And I can't afford to have kids anyway. It's just another huge regret in my pile of huge regrets.


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## Protozoan (May 26, 2014)

Mr A said:


> worse still some grow up to be Minecraft let's players lol.


I never thought I'd know terror, until now


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Protozoan said:


> I never thought I'd know terror, until now


It's funny because my brother is a Minecraft let's player :lol


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## Protozoan (May 26, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> It's funny because my brother is a Minecraft let's player :lol


My condolences :b


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## Annamoly (Sep 17, 2016)

I've known since I was around 10 that I didn't want to have children. People would tell me I would change my mind, and I never have.
There are so many reasons why (too many to list here), and some have already been mentioned: can't even deal with my own life, not enough energy to deal with them, financial concerns, overpopulation, the current state of the world, passing on possibly defective genes, etc.

I think what it boils down to (for me at least) is if you really want to, if this would really be fulfilling your life. It's a huge responsibility, and I've seen people give in and have kids just because of societal expectations. It doesn't work out well for the child or the parent. For me, it's not something that would fulfill my life. It's different for everyone. I do feel for those who truly want to have children (and for whatever reason, physical, emotional) cannot have them.


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## IcedOver (Feb 26, 2007)

Just realize that at base, it's a selfish desire. For most, bringing another future adult into the world is a decision not made with the the kid's wellbeing in mind, but rather is part of the parent's self-realization. It's thought of in the same way as buying a car or a house, which is pretty sickening. Women especially think of it as an adorable living baby doll like they had when they were kids, forgetting that that baby grows up to be an adult. Just take a moment and realize the motivations behind your desire, and you'll realize that you're thinking more of yourself and how you'll fit into what's expected and what you want for yourself than the unhappiness your kid will feel growing up in this world.


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## shana (Mar 9, 2009)

I would like to have kids, but I haven't yet found a partner.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

Twilightforce said:


> I do kind of want kids but on second thought, there's no one in this world that wants to have kids with me.


It's a big world. You're very wrong. You should visit the rest of the world.

Women in your little corner of the world may not be interested in you but it can be a completely different story elsewhere.

If there is a drought in your land, you migrate. You don't stay and die of thirst. You've chosen to stay and die.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CallmeIshmael (Sep 4, 2016)

I've always wanted kids. Give me a nice wife and 3 or 4 kids and I'll be happy till the day I die.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

IcedOver said:


> Just realize that at base, it's a selfish desire. For most, bringing another future adult into the world is a decision not made with the the kid's wellbeing in mind, but rather is part of the parent's self-realization. It's thought of in the same way as buying a car or a house, which is pretty sickening. Women especially think of it as an adorable living baby doll like they had when they were kids, forgetting that that baby grows up to be an adult. Just take a moment and realize the motivations behind your desire, and you'll realize that you're thinking more of yourself and how you'll fit into what's expected and what you want for yourself than the unhappiness your kid will feel growing up in this world.


I see this said a lot online, but it just doesn't seem like a compelling argument to me. We could reduce every action, even good and nobles ones, to being selfishly motivated. For example, I'm sure most artists and musicians create primarily to fulfill a selfish need in themselves. Likewise, the desire to have children, selfish though it may be, need not result in an unhappy human being who should never have been created. And there are even many examples of people who lived full and meaningful lives despite having terrible parents. If I and a hypothetical partner did not view children like a house or car, and had every intention of trying to be good parents, why should selfishness be a reason to remain childless?


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## Awkto Awktavious (May 11, 2011)

The other day I was reminiscing about high school; and one of the first days of grade 9 our teacher asks 'How many of you see yourselves getting married and having children?' (I don't remember why he asked that but) out of 30 something kids, about 5 raised their hands. I was one of them.

Now 15 years later, I couldn't possibly imagine that ever happening, nor do I wish for it any longer.


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## catcharay (Sep 15, 2011)

It was always something that would ensue in life, in time. I do feel instinctive about it now, but usurped with that feeling of unpreparedness. My sister is pregnant and I'm seeing a lot of babies so I guess the tick tocking is louder. My goal is 36. In a way having a baby is symbolic. At that point I would have got my anxiety managed and my self esteem would be measured and good.


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## Deadguy (Aug 19, 2011)

I can't say I've ever had a desire to have kids. 

If you're on a site like this then that means your life has had a lot of dark moments. Do you want to bring in kids who will go through the same things? I most certainly do not.

My life is good now. I have a great job and a good life but I don't want to bring someone into this world. I've ended relationships over this very issue. 

Kids are a lot of work and cost a lot of money. I've been able to save up quite a bit and am on track to retire at 55. A lot of my coworkers grumble about putting their kids through college, paying for this or that, etc. I don't have to deal with that, thankfully.


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## VacantLot (Jun 28, 2016)

MadnessVertigo said:


> I see this said a lot online, but it just doesn't seem like a compelling argument to me. We could reduce every action, even good and nobles ones, to being selfishly motivated. For example, I'm sure most artists and musicians create primarily to fulfill a selfish need in themselves. Likewise, the desire to have children, selfish though it may be, need not result in an unhappy human being who should never have been created. And there are even many examples of people who lived full and meaningful lives despite having terrible parents. If I and a hypothetical partner did not view children like a house or car, and had every intention of trying to be good parents, why should selfishness be a reason to remain childless?


Because parents are using their own selfish desire to impose risk on another individual that could not consent to it. Every person eventually comes to some form of harm and dies; I think the real question here is - are a parent's selfish desires to have a child worth imposing ethical harms on another individual worth it? Would I secretly drug an innocent person just because they might end up enjoying the high? No, it is wrong to take risks for another person even if they might have a good time.

Even with intentions of being good parents you are still gambling with whether or not a person will have a decent life; not to mention the potential harm that a child could cause to others.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

VacantLot said:


> Because parents are using their own selfish desire to impose risk on another individual that could not consent to it. Every person eventually comes to some form of harm and dies; I think the real question here is - are a parent's selfish desires to have a child worth imposing ethical harms on another individual worth it? Would I secretly drug an innocent person just because they might end up enjoying the high? No, it is wrong to take risks for another person even if they might have a good time.
> 
> Even with intentions of being good parents you are still gambling with whether or not a person will have a decent life; not to mention the potential harm that a child could cause to others.


You are an antinatalist I take it? I don't buy the hardline stance that every couple to conceive children is guilty of a moral wrong. Even beyond the fact that if people were to try and do good by such morality, it would mean the extinction of humanity.

Bringing someone into life is not an ethical harm, risk, or a violation of consent (which requires a living being to begin with). It baffles me that people can view having children that way as a general rule. If you're fairly certain that you're going to be a bad parent and raise a completely miserable child, then yes, but otherwise it is absurd to approach a basic function of our nature like it is an insurance stake.


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## VacantLot (Jun 28, 2016)

MadnessVertigo said:


> Bringing someone into life is not an ethical harm, risk, or a violation of consent (which requires a living being to begin with).


Most of my points are subjectively arguable...which I will try to avoid delving into since this is not technically a debate section. But it is pretty clear when looking at rates of pregnancy complications (specifically maternal mortality has recently been on the rise in the US) having children is a risk. Also at risk are childhood cancers/mental illnesses/accidents/severe allergic reactions ect.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

VacantLot said:


> Most of my points are subjectively arguable...which I will try to avoid delving into since this is not technically a debate section. But it is pretty clear when looking at rates of pregnancy complications (specifically maternal mortality has recently been on the rise in the US) having children is a risk. Also at risk are childhood cancers/mental illnesses/accidents/severe allergic reactions ect.


Do you mean risk to the mother or child?. I was responding to where you said "...parents are using their own selfish desire to impose risk on another individual.." and "...it is wrong to take risks for another person..." which sounds like risk to the child. Before conceiving the child there is no one to be taking a risk for. So how can you say it's wrong to "impose risk" on this non existent individual, in order to justify your judgement that they should never exist? Seems kind of circular doesn't it?


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## riverbird (Mar 30, 2016)

My main goal in life used to be to eventually have children. I took it seriously, I planned out everything from wanting a home birth, homeschooling, how I would parent, picked out names for potential kids. Then I became vegan again last September and turned 30 in February and those two things seemed to wipe that desire away. It's so weird. I have random moments here and there where I think I might still want them but those quickly vanish. I just can't see myself being responsible for another life. I don't think that would end well for the kid.


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## sundrops (Apr 10, 2011)

VacantLot said:


> Because parents are using their own selfish desire to impose risk on another individual that could not consent to it. Every person eventually comes to some form of harm and dies; I think the real question here is - are a parent's selfish desires to have a child worth imposing ethical harms on another individual worth it? Would I secretly drug an innocent person just because they might end up enjoying the high? No, it is wrong to take risks for another person even if they might have a good time.
> 
> Even with intentions of being good parents you are still gambling with whether or not a person will have a decent life; not to mention the potential harm that a child could cause to others.





MadnessVertigo said:


> Do you mean risk to the mother or child?. I was responding to where you said "...parents are using their own selfish desire to impose risk on another individual.." and "...it is wrong to take risks for another person..." which sounds like risk to the child. Before conceiving the child there is no one to be taking a risk for. So how can you say it's wrong to "impose risk" on this non existent individual, in order to justify your judgement that they should never exist? Seems kind of circular doesn't it?


Usually an opinion is a reflection of the individual's own life and their past experiences, and how they see themselves. This will normally lean towards a more positive or negative outlook on life, which I have experienced both of. Bringing a child into this world can never be considered a mistake, that they should not exist, regardless of the parents' motive. Life is a beautiful thing, and every person should be given the right to find this out for themselves, even if it's difficult, even if times they go through struggles. Obstacles exist in life for a reason, because it's only through the fight that we become stronger and come to accept ourselves no matter what has happened in our lives. Cancer and illnesses or any obstacle is only a limitation if you view it in that way. How about some stories you hear of people who are diagnosed with cancer and have only a few months left to live, they choose to journey the world in that time? Though time may be finite, what we do now is what matters the most. Anyone can have joy right now if they are willing to accept the conditions presented to them, no matter how dire it may be. Why? Because acceptance, by that I mean unconditionally both the good and the bad, is the precondition for change to happen.


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## VacantLot (Jun 28, 2016)

MadnessVertigo said:


> Do you mean risk to the mother or child?. I was responding to where you said "...parents are using their own selfish desire to impose risk on another individual.." and "...it is wrong to take risks for another person..." which sounds like risk to the child. Before conceiving the child there is no one to be taking a risk for. So how can you say it's wrong to "impose risk" on this non existent individual, in order to justify your judgement that they should never exist? Seems kind of circular doesn't it?


Well it could be harmful to both of them.

I think you are getting caught up on the so called non-identity problem. You don't need to actually have an individual in existence to know that coming into existence might be negative. For example if there were an ongoing war, a woman might think it is a bad idea to have a child knowing that it might be born just to be conscripted to kill or be killed in a war. She could put aside her own desire and forgo childbirth. That might be a hyperbolic example, but it is possible to consider different states of affairs that might be the outcome of a decision.

And for the person suggesting that cancer is a positive experience? My mother died from pancreatic cancer. I knew it would be a tough time from her initial diagnosis, but it was truly such a nightmare that I still have panic attacks (after all these years) from the way it devastated our whole family. Something went wrong with her pancreaticoduodenectomy surgery and from the complications her life became a torturous experience. It seemed to be the final straw that drove my father to suicide a month before she died. I don't think it was possible for him to just decide to be joyful, he had treatment resistant depression and nothing was ever able to help him.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

VacantLot said:


> Well it could be harmful to both of them.
> 
> I think you are getting caught up on the so called non-identity problem. You don't need to actually have an individual in existence to know that coming into existence might be negative.


Well now you have gone from life being "an imposed ethical harm" or like a forced drugging, to "might be negative". I agree that any life may subjectively be a net positive or negative, but to conclude therefore that all child birth is unethical is going way too far. Having a child during a war may very well be a bad idea, but still I would be careful of calling it outright unethical as a general rule. You are condemning a very large swath of humanity when you use antinatalist rhetoric.


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## tea111red (Nov 8, 2005)

i think i might want to have a kid and that desire may increase the closer i get to 35. if i'm 32 or 32 1/2 (i should be more "normal" by then) and still haven't found anyone, i'll probably try to put myself out there more to find a baby daddy...haha. having a kid would probably give me something to live for. i don't know, though. it's a big job. i really just have to choose very wisely when it comes to who will be the dad, i guess. being a single parent would be tough. esp. the dad turned out to be a deadbeat.


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## db09striker (Jan 28, 2016)

I have never thought about having children, maybe I would have if I was in a relationship right now at my current age of 31.

If I ever have children - I only want 1 child. I could not afford more and also I don't see the need in having more than 1, and definitely no more than 2.

I have recently thought about what having a child would be like and get in the mindset of a parent as I see parents with their kids when I visit the supermarket each morning. Parents must always be thinking 'wow I made this little bundle of joy, this is amazing' and must just want to watch their little baby all day to see what faces it makes and things it does. All day while at work you must be thinking about your baby and gagging to get home and see him or her. I can imagine it would be very joyous at first - at least.

In the end there may be a lot of crying and disobedience from a toddler wanting sweets all the time which would get annoying. Every time I see a kid go past one of those candy machines or one of those postman pat or Noddy type sit in cars that you find at supermarkets that move about and play music......they are always asking their parents for for the sweeties or for a go in postman pat's van. I think I'd have to blindfold my kids as we walk out the supermarket so that they don't get distracted. Those things lure kids in like a baby to a nipple.

I guess if I don't have a kid or 2 I'd probably regret it. But there are positives about not having kids and being free and being able to devote your time to a wife/girlfriend instead. Because let's face it - children pull parents apart and that one-one-one time with your partner is changed forever. Then again - in time I guess that happens anyway as the urge to have sex diminishes. So maybe it is better to have kids to take up your time instead.


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## Mondo_Fernando (Jun 26, 2014)

Yes, but not sure if I can find a partner I'm compatible with and my life will be together enough to have kids. 

Sometimes just feel it's not meant to be and I start :crying:


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## NoEgo (Jul 5, 2016)

I wanted to be a father when I was a kid, but as time goes by, the thought of being one becomes less and less ideal. Maybe I'll cave it someday (or it'll most likely happen by accident), but I'm in no rush whatsoever. The problem is finding women who don't want children either. A guy can dream, can't he?


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## layitontheline (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't recall ever really wanting kids growing up and during my teens and early twenties I was rather opposed to the idea... Convinced the world was a dark depressing place that I would never want to subject children to. My mindset has really changed in the last couple years and now I'm excited to create a family one day. There will always be dangers and risks and suffering in life, as well as some bright moments, and I want to raise kids that are strong enough to face all of it. I personally can't think of a greater purpose in life than creating new life and giving it all the love and wisdom you can before sending it off into the world. I'm terrified about the immense responsibility that comes along with parenting and how I'll manage motherhood with anxiety, but I'm determined not to let those fears stop me.


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## Hank Scorpio (Oct 28, 2008)

It's always seemed like the biggest waste of time and money people don't have to begin with.


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## Beobachter (Jun 16, 2015)

MadnessVertigo said:


> Well now you have gone from life being "an imposed ethical harm" or like a forced drugging, to "might be negative". I agree that any life may subjectively be a net positive or negative, but to conclude therefore that all child birth is unethical is going way too far. Having a child during a war may very well be a bad idea, but still I would be careful of calling it outright unethical as a general rule. You are condemning a very large swath of humanity when you use antinatalist rhetoric.


I think one point of difference is that there are known negative facts; a child will experience sadness, mental and physical pain and death during their life, this is not optional, however, the positive experiences are not for certain, they may or may not have a happy, fulfilling life. Whether a person believes the _potential_ positives outweighs the _potential and known_ negatives depends on their own experiences. From this perspective, it is reasonable for a person to believe that the negatives have a sufficiently high probability of outweighing the positives, making childbirth generally unethical.

There is also the position that _any_ negative, such as death, is not ethical to impose upon someone without their informed consent. Since the person doesn't yet exist to give such consent, this automatically precludes childbirth. This is like a "first, do no harm" philosophy. You *will* be doing them harm, but you are making the decision for them that the positives will make up for it.

I'm not saying I agree with these positions, but they seem to be reasonable beliefs for those that do.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

Beobachter said:


> I think one point of difference is that there are known negative facts; a child will experience sadness, mental and physical pain and death during their life, this is not optional, however, the positive experiences are not for certain, they may or may not have a happy, fulfilling life.


Aren't you loading the scales differently by your phrasing? On one side you say there is sadness, pain and death, which no one will deny. But on the other side you put "a happy, fulfilling life", which is subjective and perhaps rare. "Positive experiences" however, I think almost every organism will feel, unless their life is extremely brutal and short.



> Whether a person believes the _potential_ positives outweighs the _potential and known_ negatives depends on their own experiences. From this perspective, it is reasonable for a person to believe that the negatives have a sufficiently high probability of outweighing the positives, making childbirth generally unethical.


I was with you until you leaped to "generally unethical". Yes, a person may weigh what kind of life their potential child will lead (and most likely be wrong), but this is not sufficient to generalize that all child birth is unethical in principal, for all people.



> There is also the position that _any_ negative, such as death, is not ethical to impose upon someone without their informed consent. Since the person doesn't yet exist to give such consent, this automatically precludes childbirth. This is like a "first, do no harm" philosophy. You *will* be doing them harm, but you are making the decision for them that the positives will make up for it.


No human being or organism has ever or will ever consent to be born. Of course consent is very important when we talk about beings who exist, but it is absurd to talk about violating the consent of someone who hasn't even been conceived.


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## i suck at life (Mar 14, 2014)

no i didnt always want children, but now that im older and found someone that i love and want to spend the rest of my life with, the urge has become super strong


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## Beobachter (Jun 16, 2015)

MadnessVertigo said:


> Aren't you loading the scales differently by your phrasing? On one side you say there is sadness, pain and death, which no one will deny. But on the other side you put "a happy, fulfilling life", which is subjective and perhaps rare. "Positive experiences" however, I think almost every organism will feel, unless their life is extremely brutal and short.


Such a life is indeed a possibility. For example they may be born with a severe genetic anomaly and die within a few hours or days after being born, never experiencing happiness. Negative experiences are a fact, but positives are not a guarantee. The happy, fulfilling life part is indeed subjective, hence my point that it is subjective whether the known negatives will be outweighed in a net lifelong balance by the potential positives, leading to a net gain of a happy life.



MadnessVertigo said:


> I was with you until you leaped to "generally unethical". Yes, a person may weigh what kind of life their potential child will lead (and most likely be wrong), but this is not sufficient to generalize that all child birth is unethical in principal, for all people.


If a person looks outward and concludes most, or even some, are unhappy in their lives, then it's logical to apply this generally. Whether they are right or wrong in this conclusion would be subjective since happiness is a poorly defined term, but it would be logical for them to feel that way.



MadnessVertigo said:


> No human being or organism has ever or will ever consent to be born. Of course consent is very important when we talk about beings who exist, but it is absurd to talk about violating the consent of someone who hasn't even been conceived.


Why is it absurd? We procreate due to illogical natural instincts. For better or worse, we have the ability to reason, which can override natural instincts. It may be that life itself is unethical, in which case the human race should logically self-destruct. I grant you that may be a case of burning down the village to save it, but I don't think procreation is a given necessity or fact of life, it is an optional endeavor for the human race as a whole, and thus subject to conscientious rejection on ethical grounds.

Again, I'm not saying I hold these views personally, but they seem pretty well thought out. There have been several papers by very smart people on the subject.


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## kageri (Oct 2, 2014)

I never wanted children. I never have had any desire at all. From giving birth to raising them I just don't want to do it. I've thought about what could happen occasionally and there was just no reason to have children. I guess it does make you look a little less silly playing in the mud at 30years old if you have kids with. I should just haul my aquarium water test kit with me and claim I'm a biologist lol Don't mind me just checking the local species and netting baby crayfish.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

Kids create a lot of content. There is only so much a couple can talk about without kids. The relationship gets boring and falls apart. 

Having children is building a family. Building something with someone can create a deep bond. 

Of course a couple can build something else together. 

And try to forgive your mom. We're all broken human beings. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

Beobachter said:


> Negative experiences are a fact, but positives are not a guarantee. The happy, fulfilling life part is indeed subjective, hence my point that it is subjective whether the known negatives will be outweighed in a net lifelong balance by the potential positives, leading to a net gain of a happy life.


I'm not agreeing with you that anything positive to do with life is subjective while the bad is objective. You intentionally portray it that way by contrasting pain, sadness and death not to pleasure, joy and life, but rather to a nebulous "happy, fulfilling life".



> If a person looks outward and concludes most, or even some, are unhappy in their lives, then it's logical to apply this generally. Whether they are right or wrong in this conclusion would be subjective since happiness is a poorly defined term, but it would be logical for them to feel that way.


"Feel that way" is the key phrase. It is not logic to project one's feelings about one's own life to guess the experience of humanity in general.



> Why is it absurd? We procreate due to illogical natural instincts. For better or worse, we have the ability to reason, which can override natural instincts. It may be that life itself is unethical, in which case the human race should logically self-destruct. I grant you that may be a case of burning down the village to save it, but I don't think procreation is a given necessity or fact of life, it is an optional endeavor for the human race as a whole, and thus subject to conscientious rejection on ethical grounds.


Illogical and instinctual is not synonymous with unethical. Again, I think saying that life itself is unethical and should be slowly eradicated is both extreme and absurd.


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## BoxJellyfish (Jul 28, 2015)

AngelClare said:


> Kids create a lot of content. There is only so much a couple can talk about without kids. The relationship gets boring and falls apart.
> 
> Having children is building a family. Building something with someone can create a deep bond.
> 
> ...


The relationship can also fall apart if you're both overworked from trying to earn enough money to take care of the child and taking care of the child itself, and you barely have any time left over for each other. Not saying that this happens to all couples but I can imagine that juggling a career, relationship and children would be difficult unless you can somehow afford to have one person stay at home. Your SO becomes less of being your partner and more of being so and so's mummy or daddy. Empty nest syndrome is a thing.

If you need a child to create enough content to talk about with your partner, you probably have a boring life.


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## AffinityWing (Aug 11, 2013)

Thinking of dying and growing alone without my own family is really depressing, but the biggest problem I think is that I could just never avert that one of those situations anyway. Unless I get lucky enough a few years from now to find someone to change my mind about not having any, I have one too many reasons I think myself one of the very last on the list of people those who should never have children.


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## Beobachter (Jun 16, 2015)

MadnessVertigo said:


> I'm not agreeing with you that anything positive to do with life is subjective while the bad is objective. You intentionally portray it that way by contrasting pain, sadness and death not to pleasure, joy and life, but rather to a nebulous "happy, fulfilling life".


I'm using the term 'happy life' to mean a net positive (positives - negatives > 0).

My point is that _some_ bad is objective, everyone will get sick, everyone will be injured, everyone will die. No joy is objective, there are only subjective experiences. These fixed costs tend to bias toward < 0 in some peoples minds. Life is not positive or negative, it just is, especially since you never had a choice to begin with. You could argue death is the same, but I think most would call it a negative.

I suppose you could further argue that all experiences are a net wash, through pain comes pleasure and such. But that would seem to give ammunition to the concept that it's not worth the effort as a whole. Or you could redefine negative as a positive in a yin and yang sort of relationship. But these are all subjective arguments of course.



MadnessVertigo said:


> "Feel that way" is the key phrase. It is not logic to project one's feelings about one's own life to guess the experience of humanity in general.


You can't prove something to be ethical or unethical, it's a subjective feeling. You also can't prove that someone is happy or sad. Since it can't be proven that their feelings are wrong, they are hence reasonable.



MadnessVertigo said:


> Illogical and instinctual is not synonymous with unethical. Again, I think saying that life itself is unethical and should be slowly eradicated is both extreme and absurd.


I didn't say it was synonymous, simply that there is no logical reason to do it, and it is not inherently positive ethically, thus there is room to argue it is unethical (or ethical) at large. Perhaps extreme, but it is arguable.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

Beobachter said:


> You can't prove something to be ethical or unethical, it's a subjective feeling. You also can't prove that someone is happy or sad. Since it can't be proven that their feelings are wrong, they are hence reasonable.


Well normally ethics are derived from a combination of reason and common sentiment among a community, not one person's feelings. Thus your claim that "life is unethical" is really empty unless you can give much better reasoning than you have. And isn't the fact that we can't know for certain how sad or happy someone is (I agree with you there) kind of contrary to your claim that most lives are a "net negative"? I have no problem with you speaking for yourself, but don't call it reasonable when you apply your personal metric to the totality of life.
[/QUOTE]


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## Beobachter (Jun 16, 2015)

MadnessVertigo said:


> Well normally ethics are derived from a combination of reason and common sentiment among a community, not one person's feelings.


I disagree that ethics have to be shared by a community. There are many instances in history where something was considered ethical by the majority, but a small minority found it unethical, and eventually the attitudes changed over time to agree with that minority.



MadnessVertigo said:


> Thus your claim that "life is unethical" is really empty unless you can give much better reasoning than you have. And isn't the fact that we can't know for certain how sad or happy someone is (I agree with you there) kind of contrary to your claim that most lives are a "net negative"?


I didn't claim that life is unethical, or that most lives are a net negative, I said that someone who believed that (VacantLot perhaps) could possibly successfully argue that position. Since I don't really hold those views, it would be difficult for me to argue that claim personally, rather I'm arguing that people should be open minded to listen to such an argument from those that do, since it may have merit.



MadnessVertigo said:


> I have no problem with you speaking for yourself, but don't call it reasonable when you apply your personal metric to the totality of life.


Well, one could say the same about claiming that procreation is inherently ethical or that life is a net positive. The projection goes both ways since neither position is a given.


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## BoxJellyfish (Jul 28, 2015)

I think that in the end it's up to one's own personal perception of life. I believe there should be an exit option for those that truly don't consent to being alive, and that people shouldn't be forced to stay alive if they don't want to.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

Beobachter said:


> Why is it absurd? We procreate due to illogical natural instincts. For better or worse, we have the ability to reason, which can override natural instincts. It may be that life itself is unethical, in which case the human race should logically self-destruct. I grant you that may be a case of burning down the village to save it, but I don't think procreation is a given necessity or fact of life, it is an optional endeavor for the human race as a whole, and thus subject to conscientious rejection on ethical grounds.


Life may not be easy, but I'm pretty sure most people alive today prefer life over the alternative. If you burn it down, you aren't saving it, you're destroying it.


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## unicorns (Aug 28, 2016)

I never really wanted kids until I was in my 30s. I thought about it sometimes, but it was never a sad feeling for me until my 30s when I realized I'd never have any and my hormones were going crazy, the biological clock ticking, it was awful. With all my problems, I'm not able to get married or even have a relationship. But that doesn't stop me from wishing I could. It hurts a lot sometimes. Especially when I hear people make old maid jokes. Some of us just aren't fortunate in life to fall in love and have a family.


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## unicorns (Aug 28, 2016)

Also, I am still in my 30s, and I still have these feelings sometimes.


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## hydinthebasmnt (Aug 26, 2012)

I used to want children. But I have always known that I would never be in an ideal situation to ever have them. Children deserve so much more than to come from a complete zero like me. And I'm not getting any younger. The odds are stacked up against me.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

hydinthebasmnt said:


> I used to want children. But I have always known that *I would never be in an ideal situation to ever have them*. Children deserve so much more than to come from a complete zero like me. And I'm not getting any younger. The odds are stacked up against me.


No-one is ever in an ideal situation to have kids. I think most people just make do - if we all waited until we had enough money or were sure about everything we would never do it at all - or anything else for that matter.

Sorry to single you out - I don't spend all that much time on here anymore. But I hate to see people talk about themselves the way you did.


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## kageri (Oct 2, 2014)

caveman8 said:


> Life may not be easy, but I'm pretty sure most people alive today prefer life over the alternative. If you burn it down, you aren't saving it, you're destroying it.


I debate that some days. l planned to die by 30 but 30 came and I had a relationship and life. Now what? Sure life gets better periodically but it's never really good. Is it entirely worth not committing suicide as a teenager and living through what I have in the extra decade since plus the years after and coming? I don't know if you can ever fully recover from my experiences and now I am having physical problems that make it even worse. If life is just going to keep going like this then is whatever happens when you die (I'm leaning toward nothing) any worse. I can see why some people just think the world should be destroyed. I may not agree with ending other lives but given my own experiences I can understand the point of view.



AngelClare said:


> Kids create a lot of content. There is only so much a couple can talk about without kids. The relationship gets boring and falls apart.
> 
> Having children is building a family. Building something with someone can create a deep bond.


For _some _people kids make the more content. For _some_ couples they run out of things to talk about. For _some_ relationships they get boring and fall apart kids or no kids. For _some_ people children are needed to build a family and for _some_ people that's necessary. All of that does not apply to me or my husband after 8years.


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## hypestyle (Nov 12, 2003)

at this point in my life, I wonder if it's even worth it to be interested in having children. Most women around my age and older have already had the children they intend to have/raise, so finding a woman my age isn't likely to yield any childbearing interest.


As far as younger women-- well, they'd have to be into me to begin with, and so far none I've met have shown any interest whatsoever. so again, no go.


Plus- and this is a major issue-- I have any number of bucket list items I'd love to do, especially involving travel-- and when you have children, ethically, you should put their needs first rather than vacations. And raising children is prohibitively expensive.


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## BoxJellyfish (Jul 28, 2015)

hypestyle said:


> at this point in my life, I wonder if it's even worth it to be interested in having children. Most women around my age and older have already had the children they intend to have/raise, so finding a woman my age isn't likely to yield any childbearing interest.
> 
> As far as younger women-- well, they'd have to be into me to begin with, and so far none I've met have shown any interest whatsoever. so again, no go.
> 
> Plus- and this is a major issue-- I have any number of bucket list items I'd love to do, especially involving travel-- and when you have children, ethically, you should put their needs first rather than vacations. And raising children is prohibitively expensive.


Have you considered adoption?


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## hypestyle (Nov 12, 2003)

BoxJellyfish said:


> Have you considered adoption?


As a single man, no. I don't have a substantive enough job yet. If I did, I'd still face "political" obstacles. I think it's easier for single women to seek out adoption rather than single men. But who knows.

If I were to meet a woman close to my age, it would have to be someone who is open to adoption. But most women 40+ aren't interested in raising any new children.


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## chefdave (Dec 16, 2013)

In principle I think it's a good idea to have children. Certainly in the West we're guilty of taking our civilisation for granted and that means less and less people are having kids. In the long run that could be a problem.

In practice though I'm glad I don't have any as it would be far too stressful, I wouldn't want to be chained to the mother for that length of time either. I don't find myself longing to have kids and wouldn't find it sad if I remained childless.


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## Riff Raff (Nov 25, 2016)

MadnessVertigo said:


> Did any of you always want children when you were growing up? In my heart I've always felt that raising a family was the end of a good life. As much as I try to tell myself that there's other purposes to life, and that I'd be a terrible parent, it still pains me deeply that I will die without a wife and children. This is one instinct or emotion within me that I can't reason myself out of. It is an endless cause of envy and destroyer of my peace of mind. I would ask how to let it go, but I don't want to let it go... it's been with me ever since I can remember. Just wondering if anyone else can relate?


This is a good topic.. So I am glad that you posted this. 
For me I have no desire to have kids in life at all. None whatsoever and I never have in life. It's just not my thing. When I see people in life and what they go through in life raising kids I just don't see anything about it that appeals to me at all. I do believe I could be a good parent if I wanted too&#8230; but It just does not appeal to me and I would not enjoy it at all so&#8230;. I have decided that it's just not for me. And I truly believe with all my heart that *Raising kids is NOT FOR EVERYBODY.*

The reason I have to say that so bluntly is that a lot of people in life go out and have children when they really didn't want any because their family pressures them into it.. or because society in general seems to push this idea on people that if you don't get married and have kids by a certain age then you have failed in life > and I think that whole peer pressure thing on this matter is total bullshat.

I do truly believe that having kids and raising them is an awesome Nobel thing that a lot of people can do with their life and I am truly grateful for the people who do it and do it well. I truly believe that is an awesome thing for many people to do in life. But again I also truly believe that it's not for everybody > so the peer pressure that is placed on some people on this matter to like try and force people to go out and have kids who really don't want kids is total bullshat..and its uncalled for.

I met a lady not too long ago who was 41 years of age and because she reached that age and never got married and had not had kids by that age she wanted to end her life because her family made her feel like a failure for not having kids in life by that age. Peer pressure like that is just wrong and pathetic. Me I don't ever adhere to pressure like that in life. I think for myself in life. I don't let my parents or society or religion or anything else in life tell me what I have to do with my life. I think for myself and decide what I want from life and what I don't want from life and if other people don't like it. That's too bad.

I don't live my life to please other people in life. I have my own goals In life and some things in life are just not for me. 
I think its sad for a person to feel obligated to go out and have kids if they really don't want them&#8230; and then 2 have to be unhappy raising them because family or society or other peers place that pressure on them to do it.

I say screw that. Again I am glad that lots of people do this in life because we do need people to have kids in life in order for society to continue with the next generation... I just know that its not for everybody and for people to place pressure on certain people and try to make them feel like they are a failure for not doing it is just wrong.

Now if you say that you feel like there is something inside you that makes you feel like you life is incomplete if you don't have kids and you want to know *how to let it go??* I would say check your heart and see if this feeling is something that other people have places upon you... and also check to see if this really is something you want to do in life? .. or is it a peer pressure thing that you feel you need to live up too?

You need to decide for yourself if this is something you really want to do in life.

Good luck, I hope you come to a place where you really know for yourself weather or not you want to have kids or not. 
and I hope that you get to accomplish what you really want in life!


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## Citrine79 (Dec 14, 2016)

I agree wth the post above that raising kids is not for everybody! I never had a desire to have children, I do not have the patience nor would I be able to handle a special needs child. Takes a strong person to do it and that is not me.


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## umakemebarf (Dec 7, 2015)

I'd feel guilty because the world is too cruel


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