# What guys/girls do you find unattractive?



## ardrum

The world is fundamentally "unfair" in regards to attractiveness. People don't seem able to control whether they are attracted to someone, and different features are interpreted in regards to attractiveness in different ways from person to person. It makes little sense to cast a wide blame toward women for generally wanting confident/assertive guys or men for generally wanting certain kinds of physical traits on women. I just don't think people, in general, can control what they're attracted by.

With that being said, there are general trends that seem to suggest that certain qualities are valued much more often than others. Likewise, there are trends that indicate unattractive traits in most cases. A depressed/unconfident guy and an obese woman probably have the least chance at being able to attract a randomly selected female or male. This is not "fair" to either of them, since they are at a natural disadvantage for something they don't totally control.

While it can be comforting for people to remind themselves that they _could_ meet someone who finds their overall traits to be attractive, the deck is stacked against them if they possess at least one of the traits that is _more_ commonly deemed unattractive. If anyone shows any remote interest in the unattractive person, they are more or less forced to pursue a relationship with them if they don't want to risk being alone for a long time (if not for their life) until the next encounter with someone who is attracted to them. If they were more attractive (physical and/or personality and character) to a wider set of people, there wouldn't be as much of a risk in not pursuing the interested person.

People say things like, "I'm sure you can find _someone_ who finds you to be attractive," but note that the person talking does not include themselves in this supposedly existing group. Or, the person claims that you have many good traits or even attractiveness, but it is only meant to cheer someone up rather than express an entirely sincere statement. When asked, "Why not you? Why aren't you attracted to me?", the person will probably become very uncomfortable. They are lending words of encouragement and support, but they are most likely in the large group that finds you unattractive for those "negative" traits (extreme shortness/tallness, weight issues, passivity, shyness, physical deformations, etc.). It's just speculating that there must be some OTHER person who finds you to be attractive, which is why it does very little to actually help the person in many cases.

I met someone on another forum who was tremendously depressed because he was only attracted to a very select group of females who fell into the trend of what's considered to be "very attractive looking." He felt he was evil for only liking this group, as he realized there were so many traits that "should" make someone attractive in his eyes. He thought it was ridiculous that his attraction to women could be singularly based upon looks. He fought this urge hard, but he concluded that he was a horrible, "evil" (his words) person because he could never, ever, ever be attracted to an overweight girl no matter how hard he tried or what sort of personality traits she had. He thought this was so unfair to the overweight girls to the point where he found it very hard to live with himself and developed suicidal thoughts. How could he criticize people for not liking him when he had a very limited range of what was attractive and ruled out women for characteristics that they didn't choose to have in the first place?

I'm now asking people to be bold and say what they aren't attracted by. You shouldn't feel guilty about this, as it isn't as though you chose to find a trait unattractive or think they deserve to be unattractive in your eyes.


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## Decade

ardrum said:


> I'm now asking people to be bold and say what they aren't attracted by. You shouldn't feel guilty about this, as it isn't as though you chose to find a trait unattractive or think they deserve to be unattractive in your eyes.


I guess the only real thing that sticks out in my mind is someone who is really overweight. I feel kind of bad about feeling that way since I am overweight, so I know how hard it is to be fat.

Im not really sure what else I am not attracted by. I know that makes me sound like I am lying, but I am really not. The people I find unattractive physically, well it's kind of like they have an invisible X over their head or something that just lets me know that I think they are unattractive. I never look into it because I don't think I have the right to be picky, being single all my life...


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## ardrum

I just wonder if it's appropriate to feel guilty over finding someone unattractive. I'm not suggesting we should be proud, but if it's out of our control, it's hard to cast blame.


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## Decade

ardrum said:


> I just wonder if it's appropriate to feel guilty over finding someone unattractive. I'm not suggesting we should be proud, but if it's out of our control, it's hard to cast blame.


I almost think that some guilt should be nessessary, for some people anyway. It would be easier to tease the people we think are unattractive or ugly if people didn't feel guilty about it. A lot of people are perfectly okay with pointing out the people they are not attracted to. But maybe that is just the jerks?

But definatly, you can't control who you are attracted to.


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## yellowpaper

I really don't have much of a physical attraction to people. I generally find most people to be ugly until I get to know them a little. Sometimes I can still find them physically ugly and just not really notice. I'm not attracted to drinking, drug use, sex-addiction-type-behaviors... etc. I like men who are less "manly". I like other somewhat introverted people... I'm also pretty much only attracted to people who show interest in me first. Don't know what else to say... i'm not just very attracted to people.. i'm more unattracted than anything.


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## embers

At first sight i'm not attracted to obese, but I did get to know an obese man and we dated for two years. He had the confidence and romance and everything else going for him and he wasn't embarassed about his size. The only other thing is thin lips, I can't get past that, I need full and/or shapely lips.


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## Decade

yellowpaper said:


> I really don't have much of a physical attraction to people. I generally find most people to be ugly until I get to know them a little. Sometimes I can still find them physically ugly and just not really notice. I'm not attracted to drinking, drug use, sex-addiction-type-behaviors... etc. I like men who are less "manly". I like other somewhat introverted people... I'm also pretty much only attracted to people who show interest in me first. Don't know what else to say... i'm not just very attracted to people.. i'm more unattracted than anything.


I can relate to that. I only really start getting attracted to people when I can see their personality. If I think they have an ugly or fake personality then I have a hard time even being nice to them. Shy, introverted guys just make me smile.


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## JTenn

me 2, decade


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## kj6754

ardrum said:


> I met someone on another forum who was tremendously depressed because he was only attracted to a very select group of females who fell into the trend of what's considered to be "very attractive looking." He felt he was evil for only liking this group, as he realized there were so many traits that "should" make someone attractive in his eyes. He thought it was ridiculous that his attraction to women could be singularly based upon looks. He fought this urge hard, but he concluded that he was a horrible, "evil" (his words) person because he could never, ever, ever be attracted to an overweight girl no matter how hard he tried or what sort of personality traits she had. He thought this was so unfair to the overweight girls to the point where he found it very hard to live with himself and developed suicidal thoughts. How could he criticize people for not liking him when he had a very limited range of what was attractive and ruled out women for characteristics that they didn't choose to have in the first place?


I can relate to this man you met.

Since I am not attractive to women I have issues with my own heterosexuality. Sometimes I feel depressed, guilty, and bad about being a heterosexual. Whenever I see a female that I am attracted to it makes me depressed and I blame myself for it since I am heterosexual. I know it sounds funny but I sometimes get mad at myself for not being born asexual even though my sexuality was not in my control to begin with.

Every time I am attracted to a female it seems as if I did something wrong and I should apologize to the female that I am attracted to. But what would I be apologizing for?

At times my own sexuality feels like an illness. Deep down inside I know I should not be this way, I should not be attracted to women but I am. Its just one issue that depresses me and I hope it will get better as I get older.

As far as what I am or not attracted to, I rather not get into that since I find my own heterosexuality embarrassing enough. :afr


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## yellowpaper

Decade said:


> yellowpaper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't have much of a physical attraction to people. I generally find most people to be ugly until I get to know them a little. Sometimes I can still find them physically ugly and just not really notice. I'm not attracted to drinking, drug use, sex-addiction-type-behaviors... etc. I like men who are less "manly". I like other somewhat introverted people... I'm also pretty much only attracted to people who show interest in me first. Don't know what else to say... i'm not just very attracted to people.. i'm more unattracted than anything.
> 
> 
> 
> I can relate to that. I only really start getting attracted to people when I can see their personality. If I think they have an ugly or fake personality then I have a hard time even being nice to them. Shy, introverted guys just make me smile.
Click to expand...

"fake" is the perfect word to describe what I generally find unattractive, whether it's physical appearance or personality (which seem to go hand in hand)... fake! And yeah, it's the personality that animates the features, which creates something physically attractive (to me).


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## ardrum

Decade said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just wonder if it's appropriate to feel guilty over finding someone unattractive. I'm not suggesting we should be proud, but if it's out of our control, it's hard to cast blame.
> 
> 
> 
> I almost think that some guilt should be nessessary, for some people anyway. It would be easier to tease the people we think are unattractive or ugly if people didn't feel guilty about it. A lot of people are perfectly okay with pointing out the people they are not attracted to. But maybe that is just the jerks?
> 
> But definatly, you can't control who you are attracted to.
Click to expand...

Right, but we seem to have more control over who we openly make fun of than who we find unattractive, so I can see a reason why guilt could be more reasonable in regards to openly insulting people.


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## irishgirl

I have always been made fun of because everyone around me felt that the men i dated were highly unattractive. I thought they were beautiful though. I like flaws in people. However, I agree with yellowpaper, people who are fake or mean are nasty, no matter how aesthetically pleasing they are!


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## trey

If we're just talking physical appearance, I don't think I'd be able to list them all. I am _extremely_ choosey. I've never had much interest in pursuing any kind of romantic relationships, and that's a good thing because with my height, my pickiness would probably cancel out pretty much anyone who could overlook _my_ undesirable height :um

There's also a difference between recognizing someone is attractive, and finding someone attractive. Most of the time I recognize someone is attractive but feel no attraction towards them. If they have just one tiny seemingly insignificant feature that doesn't fit "my type" that makes the difference between being attracted or not.

You know... the world would probably be a happier place if everyone was castrated after a certain age, lol. No self-image worries because we wouldn't care about appearing attractive.


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## sadguy

I have to admit I don't like fat girl at all. I can accept ugly but I can't accept fat...


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## workinprogress87

sadguy said:


> I have to admit I don't like fat girl at all. I can accept ugly but I can't accept fat...


I am the other way around I think. I couldn't get paste ugliness but a charming personality would really beautify an overweight person like a professor I had freshman year. She was kind of overweight but had a decent face and an incredible personality. Ever time she talked in class I'd get aroused. Too bad she was a lesbian.


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## CoconutHolder

The only thing I can think of that I couldn't help but be unattracted to would be bad skin. Meaning a LOT of acne/oiliness, stuff like that. Bad smell would not be good either. 

It doesn't matter how physically good looking they are, if they are jerks........they are unattractive also. More so than ppl with something unattractive that they can't really help.


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## nubly

well normally im attracted to girls with pale/light skin and long straight dark hair.

i think i become attracted to a woman from her personality thought. ive met women that ive found attractive at first glance but the more i got to know them, the less attracted i was to them. and vice versa with women i didnt find attractive at first, the better i knew them the more attractive they became to me


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## ardrum

nubly said:


> well normally im attracted to girls with pale/light skin and long straight dark hair.
> 
> i think i become attracted to a woman from her personality thought. ive met women that ive found attractive at first glance but the more i got to know them, the less attracted i was to them. and vice versa with women i didnt find attractive at first, the better i knew them the more attractive they became to me


What about unattractiveness? Any physical/personality traits that you find yourself unattracted by?

In regards to personality, I'm unattracted to people who lack intellectual curiosity and show disrespectfulness, proud ignorance/stupidity, hate, excessive materialism, and excessive attention toward one's appearance.

In regards to physical appearance, I am unattracted by extremely overweight and/or very tall women (tall is relative to my extremely short stature). This does not mean I think they deserve to be unattractive in my eyes, of course. I don't think I deserve to be deemed unattractive for being extremely short, and they don't deserve to be unattractive in my eyes. I don't think this makes me a horrible person though, as I do not choose this bias and think most people have these biases whether they admit them or not.

On average, I think I am more selective than the average guy in regards to personality/intelligence, and far less selective than the average guy in regards to appearance.


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## WineKitty

Unattractive -- Ignorance.

Attractive -- Honesty.

Physically I am probably very shallow in that I dont think I could date anyone significantly shorter than me. I realize that makes me a horrible person but at least I am being honest. I am 5' 7 which I think is kind of tall for a girl. Same height or taller is fine.


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## FillyPhile

Attractive = my wife

I fell in love with her the moment I saw her. Her marrying me was a dream come true.


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## Noca

anyone who smokes is just as unattractive as a 400lb person to me.


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## saysomething

You could be the most attractive person in the world but if you're a jerk to everyone or you're all looks and no brains that's ugly to me.


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## Wingclipped

x


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## NightinGale

FillyPhile said:


> Attractive = my wife
> 
> I fell in love with her the moment I saw her. Her marrying me was a dream come true.


AW, too cute! Tell us more--what was the first thing you noticed about her? (Sorry to hijack the thread)

Um...what do I find physically unattractive??? Bad haircut/bad clothes. That being said, a cool shaggy 'do and a couple threads from Aeropostale will have me drooling (I'm a 19 year old girl, btw).

As far as unattractiveness in regards to personality...um...well insecurity. I gotta say it. I'm a sucker for a confident guy. Insecurity doesn't make someone ugly, it just makes me not look at the guy in a romantic sense--I need someone to go out and kill a wild beast and cook it for dinner for me and my clan! lol


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## Zen Mechanics

I'm not attracted to overweight girls or girls who are as tall/almost as tall as me. beyond that i have pretty high standards when it comes to their facial features as well, but approach that on a case by case basis. i don't think anyone should feel guilty about what they do or don't find attractive.. and on the flip side i hate the sort of people who keep demanding to know why a girl/guy doesn't find them attractive or pulls some guilt trip about how they're being so shallow etc etc.. There's a bunch of personality traits i find unattractive as well, mainly stuff like girls who feel the need to create drama all the time, stuff like that


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## yellowpaper

FillyPhile said:


> Attractive = my wife
> 
> I fell in love with her the moment I saw her. Her marrying me was a dream come true.


Wow, I hope my future husband can say that about me! :mushy


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## EagerMinnow84

Noca said:


> anyone who smokes is just as unattractive as a 400lb person to me.


Ditto. Smoking is the most digusting thing anyone can do (no offense to any smokers here). I would never date a guy who smokes. I do not want to find out that kissing a smoker is exactly like licking and ashtray. I will just agree with that statement and go about my merry way.

This one is kinda odd...but if I guy likes/loves Dane Cook and know the words to songs by Nickelback...well...they better have an AWEsome personality for me to look past those faults  (again, no offense to people who like them here, hehe)


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## Silverwater

If I'm allowed to be dead honest, I feel that I am surrounded by unattractive men at this point in my life. These men have a "combination" of the following characteristics:

-Selfish
-Almost as short as I am (I'm like 5'3")
-Skinny as I am (like 100lbs)
-Weak (mentally and physically)
-Sexist
-Ignorant

Maybe that's what you get if you live in a small, island nation. Other traits I find particularly offensive in men are arrogance, favoritism towards women with certain "coloring" as opposed to actual "beauty", favoritism towards women with fake breasts, and narrow-minded folks who are in denial.


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## Futures

I have a certain type that I'm attracted to, but unfortunately those are the exact girls that would never ever date me. 

I wish I was attracted to a different type, but there isn't anyway to change that.


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## AboutTheWeather

I am very specific when it comes to features I find attractive/unattractive in a guy. 
If we are talking STRICTLY physical, as I think you were asking in your post.. 
Nothing physical that turns me off is NECESSARILY a deal breaker, it's usually an unattractive personality.

I'm very particular about what kind of fashion a guy is wearing. Especially his shoes and pants. I really hate when guys wear those white puffy tennis shoes.. I think they look ridiculous. Well, basically I think anything oversized on a guy looks ridiculous. I'm more a fan of the clean, tailored, sophisticated look. O...r.. punk and.. dare I say it.. indie/scenester look (excluding haircuts/eyewear/slogan tees).

And yeah, I'm not a fan of overweight men. Or really really skinny guys. Or really really muscular guys. I like .. normal/average/healthy bodies, or even a little belly is fine.

I don't like when a guy has a unibrow or hair in strange places. 

I don't like facial hair on a guy if it is not well-kept or if it's patchy. 
And bad teeth, chapped lips are.. bad.

Not all balding guys.. but a fair amount. It depends on how the head is balding. But generally I find it nattractive. On the other end.. I think really long ahir on a guy is usually unattractive, especially if it is greasy. 

I guess I sound pretty picky. But.. like. I don't know. Like I said, most of these traits are specific and small enough as to where a personality could easily make up for 'em. All my friends say I have never had and will never have a boyfriend because I am too picky about this stuff, but.. I think they're wrong. *shrug*


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## EagerMinnow84

Penny said:


> I dont think I could date anyone significantly shorter than me. I realize that makes me a horrible person but at least I am being honest. I am 5' 7 which I think is kind of tall for a girl. Same height or taller is fine.


I honestly don't think I can either. I am 5'8''. I don't care of they are the same height as me, even an inch shorter...but thats it. It would be uncomfortable for both parties involved.


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## archaic

EagerMinnow84 said:


> This one is kinda odd...but if I guy likes/loves Dane Cook and know the words to songs by Nickelback...well...they better have an AWEsome personality for me to look past those faults  (again, no offense to people who like them here, hehe)


Hahahaha, yes.


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## vicente

Futures said:


> I have a certain type that I'm attracted to, but unfortunately those are the exact girls that would never ever date me.
> 
> I wish I was attracted to a different type, but there isn't anyway to change that.


Same with me.

I'm attracted to women who are confident, take-charge, and act sort of "manly", but still look "feminine" (as in clean, shaved, and odorless unlike most men). I find women who are shy, innocent, and those who act really girly to be unattractive. I'm unattracted to women who look like they stay home all day (pale skin) and never work out.

In reality, my standards are really low, so low that the preferences I wrote down above mean nothing. I'm attracted to whoever will like me who isn't hideous-looking, mentally-retarded, or looks like they will beat me up (though women who CAN kick my *** but who I know never will are hot). But no one has ever liked me so I guess they aren't low enough.


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## NightinGale

vicente said:


> Futures said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a certain type that I'm attracted to, but unfortunately those are the exact girls that would never ever date me.
> 
> I wish I was attracted to a different type, but there isn't anyway to change that.
> 
> 
> 
> Same with me.
> 
> I'm attracted to women who are confident, take-charge, and act sort of "manly", but still look "feminine" (as in clean, shaved, and odorless unlike most men). I find women who are shy, innocent, and those who act really girly to be unattractive. I'm unattracted to women who look like they stay home all day (pale skin) and never work out.
> 
> In reality, my standards are really low, so low that the preferences I wrote down above mean nothing. I'm attracted to whoever will like me who isn't hideous-looking, mentally-retarded, or looks like they will beat me up (though women who CAN kick my @$$ but who I know never will are hot). But no one has ever liked me so I guess they aren't low enough.
Click to expand...

I like your description. I'm none of those things (really pale/really girly lol) but I like your description. Most of the men on this board seem to want their mirror images, but your ideal woman is your polar opposite.


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## SAgirl

smoking is unattractive. Being rude towards others. Weighing over 300 lbs. (I figure that guys who have good paying jobs should make an effort to eat right and exercise)


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## nubly

ardrum said:


> What about unattractiveness? Any physical/personality traits that you find yourself unattracted by?


yes although i rather not say what. but again, some of these traits that i find physically unattractive on a person eventually disappear if i start to like someones personality.


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## vicente

NightinGale said:


> I like your description. I'm none of those things (really pale/really girly lol) but I like your description. Most of the men on this board seem to want their mirror images, but your ideal woman is your polar opposite.


The thing is, there a lot of women who are my mirror image, and a handful who are my polar opposite, but neither group is attracted to me. You virtually all want the same type: men who are more confident and stronger than you are.

I need to radically change my personality and tastes somehow.


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## BeNice

EagerMinnow84 said:


> This one is kinda odd...but if I guy likes/loves Dane Cook and know the words to songs by Nickelback...well...they better have an AWEsome personality for me to look past those faults  (again, no offense to people who like them here, hehe)


Oh, do you mean bros?

[youtube:qam4lxgx]http://youtube.com/watch?v=3zvTRQr7ns8[/youtube:qam4lxgx]


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## Addi

Since I´m ugly myself that in women doesn´t bother me unless their 150 kg or something, that´s a complete turnoff he and if they´re nasty I don´t like them, if they enjoy making themselves better on the expense of good people, critizice over peanuts, correct when really there´s no need for it, are vindictive and yes just very negative and mean so I´m saying the personality matters the most to me by far but doesn´t hurt if she´s beautiful, I just have one problem, the prettier the girl is the more likely is that I will screw up my chances with her, had that happen a couple of times, doesn´t feel very nice and you start thinking how it would have been if you did that and said that but yeah.


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## LostinReverie

I knew I shouldn't have read this thread. I am now going to crawl in a hole and die. At least now nobody has to read my posts about how evil this world is.


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## FillyPhile

NightinGale said:


> FillyPhile said:
> 
> 
> 
> Attractive = my wife
> 
> I fell in love with her the moment I saw her. Her marrying me was a dream come true.
> 
> 
> 
> AW, too cute! Tell us more--what was the first thing you noticed about her? (Sorry to hijack the thread)
> 
> Um...what do I find physically unattractive??? Bad haircut/bad clothes. That being said, a cool shaggy 'do and a couple threads from Aeropostale will have me drooling (I'm a 19 year old girl, btw).
> 
> As far as unattractiveness in regards to personality...um...well insecurity. I gotta say it. I'm a sucker for a confident guy. Insecurity doesn't make someone ugly, it just makes me not look at the guy in a romantic sense--I need someone to go out and kill a wild beast and cook it for dinner for me and my clan! lol
Click to expand...

She is a CPA and was auditing the company I worked for at the time. CPAs tend to dress well, and I am attracted to stylish, professional women. She is tall and slender and never wears much makeup, perfume, or jewelry. She never curses nor is she ever vulgar or rude. She is the perfect example of what a lady should be for my daughter and I hope my two sons someday choose wives just like their mother!

What do I find unattractive? Loud women.


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## tinselhair

Loudmouthed, arrogant, know-it-all types without a sense-of-humor--regardless of how he looks!

I seem to go for the shorter skinnier guys (at least before I got married this last time), but wouldn't mind a large, tall or short fat guy either if there ever is a next time.

The personality is what makes a guy unattractive to me...if it sucks--they suck.

Star


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## nothing to fear

i find guys who are too self-absorbed, fake, arrogant, cocky, etc. to be unattractive. 

as for appearance, i certainly have a type that i prefer but it all comes down to personality. if a guy's cute but he's an *******, i am immediately turned off. if i really like their personality and even if i was initially more "neutral" towards their looks i will still be attracted to them.


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## RubyTuesday

I get quickly turned-off by guys who are all "tits-n-arse" (is the expression we use over here). The kind like my cousin who talk very casually about strippers and prostitutes and more than likely are actually like that anyway. 

If I like/liked a guy who ends up being that way, I get insecure and fairly quickly after that I get fed up with feeling insecure and start seeing them as not suited to me. But most of the time I don't even get initially attracted to any of those guys (I used to, however, when I was younger).

But, attitudes towards women and sex are a big factor for me. And if the match isn't there, I am pretty easily turned off.


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## RubyTuesday

vicente said:


> NightinGale said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like your description. I'm none of those things (really pale/really girly lol) but I like your description. Most of the men on this board seem to want their mirror images, but your ideal woman is your polar opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, there a lot of women who are my mirror image, and a handful who are my polar opposite, but neither group is attracted to me. You virtually all want the same type: men who are more confident and stronger than you are.
> 
> I need to radically change my personality and tastes somehow.
Click to expand...

...No offence, but whilst there do exist men who are more confident (outgoing) than me (and I am still working on being more well balanced in this area...) but it is difficult to find a guy who is more sexually confident than I am.

And I don't actually base what I am attracted to upon "dominance" or such things. I don't bother seeing things in such a light.

So "Stronger than" me is just not a possibility, or very unlikely and generally not worth much, when it comes to confidence about sexuality.

Having said that, I wouldn't at all mind someone who was pretty secure and open and mature about their sexuality. ...In fact, I'd be impressed if I met someone like this.


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## McBeef

Aaaah, I hate hearing about how women hate guys with no confidence. Getting confidence and leading is way harder then losing weight, I've tried both. I'm kind of slowly biting the bullet though and realizing that girl friend and therapist should be two totally different people and that having a girl friend won't necessarily be helpful but will maybe be a sign of health.

Kind of curious though, what would women think of a guy who was immaculate, in amazing shape and a good, interesting person but really shy and too scared to initiate?


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## ShyFX

Bad hygiene and obesity sums it up for me. I can be attracted to a girl who is overweight, but not obese. Facial hair on women is also a major turn off. 

Personality wise...pretty much the same as everyone else. Arrogant, self-centered, rude, insensitive, etc.


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## NightinGale

Do you guys ever encounter someone who is totally rude/self-centered/arrogant and see them with someone else and wonder, "What does that couple talk about!?" Like...how does one relate to someone who is all of the above? And what if BOTH the people are rude/self-centered? How does that relationship work?


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## Drella

I can't think of one physical attribute that would universally disclude people from being potential partners of mine. There is, however, one thing I could never see past: people who dress/act "goth" or "gangsta." If I were a teenager, it may not bother me, but at this point in my life and at my current level on the ***** scale, I would be too annoyed. If I were to date such a person right now, the police would find a mangled body stuffed behind my wall. That's all I'm saying.


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## EagerMinnow84

McBeef said:


> Aaaah, I hate hearing about how women hate guys with no confidence. Getting confidence and leading is way harder then losing weight, I've tried both. I'm kind of slowly biting the bullet though and realizing that girl friend and therapist should be two totally different people and that having a girl friend won't necessarily be helpful but will maybe be a sign of health.
> 
> Kind of curious though, what would women think of a guy who was immaculate, in amazing shape and a good, interesting person but really shy and too scared to initiate?


It's hard to say. I think if the guy shows no interest even though he is interested I would assume that he wasn't interested then not think anything of it. Do you mean meeting someone like at a bar or at work/school?


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## vicente

McBeef said:


> Kind of curious though, what would women think of a guy who was immaculate, in amazing shape and a good, interesting person but really shy and too scared to initiate?


Probably the same way most men would view a woman with an amazing personality, who laughs at his jokes, enjoys his company, listens to him and lets him be the "man" of the relationship, but who weighs 300 lbs.


----------



## BeachGaBulldog

I can remember thinking(and still do) that a woman can be just drop dead gorgeous, but if she acts snobby or *****y, she is EXTREMELY UGLY! If she is going to be a ***** right off of the bat, well, she needs to just stay away from me. Life is too short for that crap. I will take an average girl with a sweet smile anytime. 
I will also say that I am a breast man, and like bbws, too.


----------



## Gerard

I want a significant other that can understand me for I very expressive. That's my number one biggest turn on. Anyone that can't, it's hard for me to feel attracted to. I guess she has to be a therapist herself. 

Did I tell you the story of falling in love with a 47 year old female therapist at the time who showed signs of wrinkles in her face while I was 20. I seriously wanted her. Gad, I'm so hopeless.

Gerard


----------



## archaic

vicente said:


> McBeef said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of curious though, what would women think of a guy who was immaculate, in amazing shape and a good, interesting person but really shy and too scared to initiate?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the same way most men would view a woman with an amazing personality, who laughs at his jokes, enjoys his company, listens to him and lets him be the "man" of the relationship, but who weighs 300 lbs.
Click to expand...

 :ditto


----------



## justlistening

Fake breasts are probably the biggest physical turn-off for me. Fake tails on the other hand, are such a turn-on! But I would wait a few more years to have a tail surgically attached, the variety of size and texture is still very limited these days.


----------



## RacerX

I agree about the 'goth' girls who look bleached white and have around 45 thousand piercings. Yuck.


----------



## Nae

justlistening said:


> Fake tails on the other hand, are such a turn-on! But I would wait a few more years to have a tail surgically attached, the variety of size and texture is still very limited these days.


looks like we have a furry detected in this vicinity :sus


----------



## Atticus

Any positive trait named here is probably possessed (the possessor believing he or she possesses the trait) by maybe 10-20 % of the people reading the thread. The other 80-90%, well, anyway.

Then there's the remote possibility that one or two people reading the thread is overweight, or has bad skin, or is short, or god forbid, insecure. On a social anxiety support site.

I mean, really :stu


----------



## ardrum

Atticus said:


> Any positive trait named here is probably possessed (the possessor believing he or she possesses the trait) by maybe 10-20 % of the people reading the thread. The other 80-90%, well, anyway.
> 
> Then there's the remote possibility that one or two people reading the thread is overweight, or has bad skin, or is short, or god forbid, insecure. On a social anxiety support site.
> 
> I mean, really :stu


What are you suggesting? It seems that you think there is significant harm to sharing how we feel in regards to attraction.

I think it's better to accept the truth of what we find attractive and unattractive rather than silence our honest attractions/unattractions or delude ourselves into thinking that everyone likes/dislikes every trait equally. Such delusions are far more troubling and unsettling, since they are constantly clashing against what is real.

I could go around constantly telling myself that most girls prefer my 5'5" height, for instance. What good would this do me though if reality did not confirm this belief? It would be shocking and unsettling, and increasingly difficult to maintain this lie due to it becoming increasingly transparent that the only evidence is my own self-reinforcing statements.

If someone is very overweight, they likely know that this is a trait that most people are unattracted by. Some people further start to resent and blame others for being "shallow" or other harsh words. The fact of the matter is that people didn't specifically set out to choose to not be attracted by overweight people. I think people as lonely as most SA sufferers would love to remove all of their unattractions in order to increase their odds of companionship. It goes to show that this is easier said than done, because much of our attraction is hard-wired rather tightly.


----------



## LostinReverie

Yes, they obviously know. The world throws it in their faces. I think Atticus was just trying to say that this site would be a better place if those who did have SA due to harsh judgement from society could come here and have some relief from unacceptance. 

Because it's not just about attraction for relationships, it's also about acceptance and friendships. What someone finds unacceptable in a mate, they also find unacceptable in a friend. Yes, truth hurts, but why do we have to hurt here?


----------



## ardrum

LostInReverie said:


> Yes, they obviously know. The world throws it in their faces. I think Atticus was just trying to say that this site would be a better place if those who did have SA due to harsh judgement from society could come here and have some relief from unacceptance.


Acceptance is different from attraction because attraction is a subset of acceptance. I can accept someone while not being attracted to them.



LostInReverie said:


> Because it's not just about attraction for relationships, it's also about acceptance and friendships. What someone finds unacceptable in a mate, they also find unacceptable in a friend. Yes, truth hurts, but why do we have to hurt here?


Do you experience the same kind of attraction/unattraction in regards to both romantic/sexual relationships and platonic relationships? I've never heard of that personally. I think people are actually much more picky in regards to romantic mates than they are with friends, and that something that is unacceptable in a mate can be perfectly acceptable and embraced in a friend. There are many examples of this as well.

One of my best friends is a female who I'm not physically (nor sexually, nor intellectually) attracted to. I'm most attracted to her kindness, open-mindedness, and empathy.

Also, I'd say that the truth doesn't _necessarily_ hurt by definition.


----------



## Atticus

Its a hard world out there, ardrum. Sometimes its a little softer here, or we hope it will be, as Lost in Reverie said. 

I don't think people who feel they are unattractive lack for information as to why that might be so. There is a slim chance that someone read this and gained some insight into his beliefs about the reasons for his lack of success socially, but I think its much more likely that he was just painfully reminded of it.


----------



## endtroducing

justlistening said:


> Fake tails on the other hand, are such a turn-on!


WTFWTF

Anyways, I find (extreme) introversion and social anxiety unattractive. Yeah, I know. I've just had a lot of bizarre experiences with people who seem to be socially anxious (eg. stalking), and I'd just rather be with someone who isn't nervous all the time. 2 people with SA together sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Being close-minded is a huge turn-off too. Other than that, I don't have many turn-offs.


----------



## LostinReverie

> Acceptance is different from attraction because attraction is a subset of acceptance. I can accept someone while not being attracted to them.


Yes one can, but does it happen? Not in my experience. People befriend other people that they find attractive.



> Do you experience the same kind of attraction/unattraction in regards to both romantic/sexual relationships and platonic relationships? I've never heard of that personally. I think people are actually much more picky in regards to romantic mates than they are with friends, and that something that is unacceptable in a mate can be perfectly acceptable and embraced in a friend. There are many examples of this as well.


Well, it depends if you're talking real friendships or merely acquaintances. I have found people to be just as picky of their real friends as they are of their mates. Of course you can know and talk to many types of people, but you choose those you are close to for a reason.



> Also, I'd say that the truth doesn't _necessarily_ hurt by definition.


Yes, yes, the truth "can" hurt. So hung up on technicalities.


----------



## nubly

RubyTuesday said:


> Having said that, I wouldn't at all mind someone who was pretty secure and open and mature about their sexuality. ...In fact, I'd be impressed if I met someone like this.


open about their sexuality? you should meet american men


----------



## ardrum

Atticus said:


> Its a hard world out there, ardrum. Sometimes its a little softer here, or we hope it will be, as Lost in Reverie said.
> 
> I don't think people who feel they are unattractive lack for information as to why that might be so. There is a slim chance that someone read this and gained some insight into his beliefs about the reasons for his lack of success socially, but I think its much more likely that he was just painfully reminded of it.


This isn't really related to the topic of this thread, which deals with what _you_ (and others) here find to be unattractive. This is a subjective interpretation, and it can sometimes act to quiet one's harsh judgements of others for not accepting themselves due to one or more factors. If we cannot control our attraction or lack of attraction, blaming people for being unattracted to us is unjustified.



LostInReverie said:


> Acceptance is different from attraction because attraction is a subset of acceptance. I can accept someone while not being attracted to them.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes one can, but does it happen? Not in my experience. People befriend other people that they find attractive.
Click to expand...

You've obviously had a far different experience than I. Of course, it would be helpful if you were to clarify what you meant by "attractive," because if it's defined broadly enough, I would agree. My only contention is that less attraction (such that it wouldn't be categorized under "attraction" depending on how narrowly or broadly it is defined) is required for friendships than for romantic partners.

For instance, I've had multiple female friends express close friendship toward me while also not showing romantic interest. At least two of them have shown tendencies to show romantic interest that is much more reliant upon an additional physical appearance that I do not have. This luckily is not an impediment for our friendship, which is as "real" as any platonic relationship can get.



LostInReverie said:


> Do you experience the same kind of attraction/unattraction in regards to both romantic/sexual relationships and platonic relationships? I've never heard of that personally. I think people are actually much more picky in regards to romantic mates than they are with friends, and that something that is unacceptable in a mate can be perfectly acceptable and embraced in a friend. There are many examples of this as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it depends if you're talking real friendships or merely acquaintances. I have found people to be just as picky of their real friends as they are of their mates. Of course you can know and talk to many types of people, but you choose those you are close to for a reason.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by a "real friend?" That is a rather vague distinction. I'm not trying to be picky; I just honestly don't know where you're drawing the line in an objective way.

I wouldn't object that there are reasons for why people choose to be close to someone. In that sense, you're absolutely right that there are elements that are attractive that contribute to this choosing. I would just disagree that the requirements are as stringent with friends as with romantic partners.



LostInReverie said:


> Also, I'd say that the truth doesn't _necessarily_ hurt by definition.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, yes, the truth "can" hurt. So hung up on technicalities.
Click to expand...

I'm hung up on reality and accuracy. If someone says the truth hurts, that's a very dramatic statement to make because it suggests this categorically. If you'd rather not be accurate and precise, that's your choice. I'd simply rather point out that the truth is not painful by definition. It is sometimes painful and sometimes not.


----------



## CoconutHolder

I think attraction in general is something beyond our own control, as Adrum pointed out. 

Sure, I bet some of it is physical. But more importantly, I think most of it is intuitive. Guided by our consciousness and beyond our control. 

I honestly think it takes some effort to look decent. Does that suck.........yeah sure it does. Is it reality? Yep, unfortunetly. Everyone can say, oh look at that person in the magazine, so pretty and skinny. Yeah, BUT does that person wake up every day looking like that? Hells no, probably not. They need to primp themselves to look that way. They work out to be in shape and to helps them gain self confidence too. They probably even eat right and drink water to stay healthy and keep their skin nice. Does that mean we all need to do that in order to be accepted? No. But in general, I think ppl are attracted to neatness and cleanliness and ppl who appear to take care of themselves...so those things help. 

Beyond that, just accepting yourself and your life and not feeling sorry for yourself is what will attract people to you. People are put off by a lot of negativity. Like it or not, its the truth. :stu People are attracted to light and positive energy. Their intuition will tell them to run like the wind if they come across compulsively negative energy. Negativity consumes you and makes you feel like ****. So, who the hell wants to willingly pick up on that and feel it themselves. PPl struggle with it on their own enough, they don't need to pick up everyone else's baggage too.

All that said, I have empathy for all human suffering. We all deal with it and it sucks ***. Hugs everyone.


----------



## ardrum

That's a thoughtful post, Coconut.


----------



## CoconutHolder

Thanks Adrum.  It just poured out of me. That happens at times. :thanks


----------



## embers

yes coco, very true. you're so beautiful and very very special.


----------



## Xeta

I don't like people who are angry, impatient, judgmental or paranoid and untrusting of me. Also, I can't stand piercings. Ear piercings are fine, but anything else is just freaky to me.


----------



## Maslow

CoconutHolder said:


> IBeyond that, just accepting yourself and your life and not feeling sorry for yourself is what will attract people to you. People are put off by a lot of negativity. Like it or not, its the truth. :stu People are attracted to light and positive energy. Their intuition will tell them to run like the wind if they come across compulsively negative energy. Negativity consumes you and makes you feel like @#%$. So, who the hell wants to willingly pick up on that and feel it themselves. PPl struggle with it on their own enough, they don't need to pick up everyone else's baggage too.


That's true, but that's where SAD is a real handicap. It's hard to be positive when you're anxious. On the other hand, being positive can alleviate anxiety.


----------



## CoconutHolder

I completely agree, Maslow. 

SA is a very hard cross to carry. I believe it is a massive thing that if you can break through just a little, there come a lot of understanding and enlightenment.

This is where it is important to get help of some kind, any kind. A big thing, though, I believe, is to not expect whatever you are trying to completely eliminate your SA. I think this is sort of a false illusion because we will always be somewhat different from people who don't have it. But finding a way to alleviate it a little is a big help. It can help to see things more clearly instead of through a constant veil of negativity. Which in turn helps the SA more, as you pointed out.

Although it is hard to find something that helps, it is important to keep pursuing something until you find that thing that helps you, whatever it be. To not give up on yourself.


----------



## embers

CoconutHolder said:


> I completely agree, Maslow.
> 
> SA is a very hard cross to carry. I believe it is a massive thing that if you can break through just a little, there come a lot of understanding and enlightenment.
> 
> This is where it is important to get help of some kind, any kind. A big thing, though, I believe, is to not expect whatever you are trying to completely eliminate your SA. I think this is sort of a false illusion because we will always be somewhat different from people who don't have it. But finding a way to alleviate it a little is a big help. It can help to see things more clearly instead of through a constant veil of negativity. Which in turn helps the SA more, as you pointed out.
> 
> Although it is hard to find something that helps, it is important to keep pursuing something until you find that thing that helps you, whatever it be. To not give up on yourself.


I love the simple way you put things. This is very true. Be all you can be. :yes


----------



## ThomP

CoconutHolder said:


> Everyone can say, oh look at that person in the magazine, so pretty and skinny. Yeah, BUT does that person wake up every day looking like that? Hells no, probably not.


Search on YouTube for a video called "The Evolution Of Beauty", and you know how true this is... What you see is not even real, it's gone through Photoshop and tons of makeup.


----------



## ardrum

Here it is:


----------



## trewlaneyy

For me I guess it comes down to our natural evolution. If he appears physically dominant, tall for example, I might find him physically attractive because I've been wired to want to procreate with the "fittest male." However, if a tall guy opens his mouth and says something arrogant, or he's dull, the attraction is instantly gone.

The most attractive guys don't need to be physically attractive, they should read, and be open-minded, and willing to talk to us fat, ugly girls  Tall order, but hey...felt like ranting.

If it were the other way around I guess I might prefer a feminine, fertile young woman...still ranting...

To sum it up--the personality can possibly be the most unattractive trait.


----------



## Whimsy

A sense of humor is the most attractive trait.

I find obesity unattractive. The same goes for dull, boring, uptight, overally aggresive guys. 

They also have to be smart!!!. I like guys who are interested in academics to some degree. 

I dated a guy who was a total goof ball and he was cute but he had zero direction in life. He didn't have a job for a year after he graduated and I couldn't deal with it. He had the personality but not the drive.


----------



## meesha327

Physically speaking, I don't like guys that are muscley(if that's a word) and generally look like the stereotypical "meathead". They are unattractive to me. Never understood the attraction to someone like Arnold, Fabio, Tom Brady, etc.


----------



## EagerMinnow84

What do guys think about short hair on girls? Do guys prefer long hair? Do they think girls with short hair to be unattractive? 

I only ask this because I just got my hair cut today. ops


----------



## ThomP

EagerMinnow84 said:


> What do guys think about short hair on girls? Do guys prefer long hair? Do they think girls with short hair to be unattractive?
> 
> I only ask this because I just got my hair cut today. ops


Some of the cutest girls I've seen had short hair, so don't worry  Some women look drop dead gorgeous with short hair... 
(Some women look drop dead gorgeous with long hair, too  )

- Thom


----------



## McBeef

EagerMinnow84 said:


> What do guys think about short hair on girls? Do guys prefer long hair? Do they think girls with short hair to be unattractive?
> 
> I only ask this because I just got my hair cut today. ops


I immediately thought of Ezri Dax on Star Trek: DS9. Sooo hot.

I don't know why but I really like short hair on girls.


----------



## srschirm

I freakin' love short hair on girls.

But long is cute too. I don't discriminate.


----------



## ardrum

I work with a woman who told me she gets hit on all the time. She said she's tired of being given compliments about her looks, because she is frustrated that nobody gets to know her. She told me she wishes someone would, for ONCE, compliment her intelligence or anything besides her appearance.

I kind of feel bad for her. She seems rather lonely to me, and she gives her number to just about ANY guy who approaches her. 

She's a workaholic though, and I think guys lose interest in her once they realize how much more she cares about working 70-80 hours a week for extra money than relationships.

Workaholism is an unattractive personality trait for me.


----------



## ardrum

justlistening said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> 
> She said she's tired of being given compliments about her looks, because she is frustrated that nobody gets to know her. She told me she wishes someone would, for ONCE, compliment her intelligence or anything besides her appearance.
> 
> I kind of feel bad for her.
> 
> 
> 
> You're so naive.
> Next time, grab her by the arm and suggest a makeover.
Click to expand...

Hah, well, you don't have complete information. 

She's 49, and she told me she likes dating guys in their 60s.


----------



## ardrum

Maybe she radiates a look of desperation that guys pick up on.

In men, this tends to be a negative trait. In women, it's like men circle the prey, getting ready for the kill.


----------



## Prism

For me, I am much more picky on personality/character issues than physical issues but theres no doubt that is important too. 

I like a sweet personality but with an edge or "sass" to it. 

My physical preference is someone who is in decent shape because I myself try to stay in decent shape. I love short hair but really any style looks good it simply depends on the person. I prefer brunette on the whole! A nice butt is really cool too. 

As for what is unattractive in a male...I think it would be bad clothes and lack of confidence. For those guys worrying they are too short to be attractive or some other such thing, that is not what's keeping you down! I am 6 feet tall and considered reasonably good looking according to such authorities as hotornot.com and my mother and I receive little attention from females. Either they're all blind and can't see what they're missing or else I need to be confident enough to show my personality so I can be accepted or rejected based on that!


----------



## Futures

ardrum said:


> I work with a woman who told me she gets hit on all the time. She said she's tired of being given compliments about her looks, because she is frustrated that nobody gets to know her. She told me she wishes someone would, for ONCE, compliment her intelligence or anything besides her appearance.
> 
> *I kind of feel bad for her...*


I don't. It's kind of like a millionaire complaining about being rich.


----------



## omgnoudidnt

This thread is pretty depressing.


----------



## Mr. Frostman

ardrum said:


> Here it is:


I think the girl looks best at 00:10-00:15. The final result freaked me out. Its like some bug-eyed inhuman monster who feeds on the flesh of the living. :afr


----------



## McBeef

Mr. Frostman said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the girl looks best at 00:10-00:15. The final result freaked me out. Its like some bug-eyed inhuman monster who feeds on the flesh of the living. :afr
Click to expand...

I personally don't totally understand this video. She's plain in the begining, then they do her make up and hair, then they get a good shot, photoshop the picture and at the end, in my opinion, she honestly isn't more attractive just a different person who is super cleaned up. Some people are overweight and when the lose it they look a great deal better but very few people have genuinely disfigured faces and no amount of make up will turn them into Monica Bellucci.

I'm not saying this as cheap consolation from a guy who will never have one of those women, I'm saying this as a guy who really likes the female form; scrawny, plastic mannequin women are not hot. Victoria Beckham for example has a beautiful face and is pretty hot in some pictures of her. But the majority of pictures of her I see in google image searches are gross. I look at her and I think where would I touch her? Like would I be caressing her ribs? What if I went to side hug her while watching a movie and I felt the gear like motion of bones shifting around under her skin as she cuddled into me.

Anyway, what is it women feel when they see images like at the end of that video? Is it that you personally think that is what a woman looks like or you think that only women who look like that get men's attention?


----------



## millenniumman75

If she has more than two eyes or eyebrows, that's a turnoff.


----------



## ardrum

How do people know the names of various models? I've always wondered how people know this information, as if they spend time learning names and looking at photos. I've never heard of the names that people cite as examples of good-looking women. Perhaps I'm just not interested enough to follow such information.


----------



## DeeperUnderstanding

I generally have a certain type that I go for, but if a girl doesn't have those features, it's not necessarily a deal breaker. What's really unattractive though is a bad personality.


----------



## trewlaneyy

maggiemae84 said:


> This thread is pretty depressing.


Yep


----------



## nightmahr

I tend to find good-looking people unattractive. They bore me. Also fatness and masculinity.


----------



## meesha327

Somehow I don't believe people that say looks don't matter. Even babies look at attractive faces longer than they do unattractive faces. In addition humans have been found to like symmetrical faces more than unsymmetrical ones. I've learned this in psychology. It's unfortunate and depressing, but I think it's just a fact of life we must accept because of human nature. Looks attract you initially and then personality comes into play.


----------



## ardrum

Maybe we could all just always wear skin-tight masks that make everyone look the same at all times.


----------



## refined_rascal

There is a particular type of female in the UK called 'ladette' (i'm sure they're not exclusive to this country) that I find a real turn off. Ladettes drink pints, get p.i.s.s.e.d, watch football, shout and swear and are generally obnoxious. YUCK!


----------



## ThomP

meesha327 said:


> Looks attract you initially and then personality comes into play.


That might be true in the sense that if you walk into a bar to find someone, then you will probably look for someone you are attracted to, and go for him/her. However, it's not the case when you get to know someone first as a friend before falling in love, for example, you work with someone, get to know him, and then fall in love... looks matter less in that situation, I guess...


----------



## LostinReverie

Possibly, but they need to be at least average looking for one to "fall in love".


----------



## nubly

refined_rascal said:


> There is a particular type of female in the UK called 'ladette' (i'm sure they're not exclusive to this country) that I find a real turn off. Ladettes drink pints, get p.i.s.s.e.d, watch football, shout and swear and are generally obnoxious. YUCK!


here in the states we call them women

just kidding....


----------



## Wingclipped

x


----------



## slyfox

Smoking. I have been attracted to women, but as soon as I found out they were a smoker my attraction dropped to almost zero. Its kind of unfair, because I'm overweight, but I just don't want to be around someone long-term who is going to affect my health and theirs. I've had a friend and have family members who smoke, but I'm not around them constantly. This unattractive quality I might be willing to overlook if I met a once in a life time kind of women.

Women who have a major case of materialism don't appeal to me. I like people who have other hobbies besides shopping. 

Personality appeals to me more than physical. Physically attractive women are a dime a dozen.


----------



## ANCIENT

a lot of things...


----------



## TheGecko

Excessively loud and preoccupied with getting drunk at every opportunity


----------



## EagerMinnow84

refined_rascal said:


> There is a particular type of female in the UK called 'ladette' (i'm sure they're not exclusive to this country) that I find a real turn off. Ladettes drink pints, get p.i.s.s.e.d, watch football, shout and swear and are generally obnoxious. YUCK!


I don't know where this began, but for some reason in Chicago people call those type of women "Trixie" and the male equivalant "Chad."

I cannot stand those type of people.


----------



## Noca

smoking is very UNattractive.


----------



## Mc Borg

I find meanie girls unattractive! I like the tomboyish nerdy type girls! I don't like girls too girly!


----------



## Vincenzo

Aloe said:


> anyone who smokes is just as unattractive as a 400lb person to me.





Aloe again said:


> smoking is very UNattractive.


----------



## quietgal

Guys who do drugs or drink excessively. Guys who are lazy, rude, or make you pay for everything....


----------



## nubly

quietgal said:


> Guys who make you pay for everything....


i wish i went on a date where the woman payed every now and then


----------



## srschirm

nubly said:


> quietgal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guys who make you pay for everything....
> 
> 
> 
> i wish i went on a date where the woman payed every now and then
Click to expand...

Yeah, for real. I see a surprising number of women say this, and I ask myself, "Where are these guys who make them pay for everything?" because I sure haven't met them.

It is nice to see some effort on the part of women. I always tend to pay for the first few dates, but she scores major points if she at least offers.


----------



## ardrum

That whole "who pays" question is quite funny to me, since it reminds me of very traditional viewpoints that men are the strong protectors and providers while women are the helpless, defenseless, birthing machines. 

I'm kind of surprised that any women still want this stereotype to live on, but I suppose it might be largely rooted in biology to feel vulnerable or desire protection and dependence upon the great provider.

Also, forcing a woman to pay for everything is equally bizarre to me. I just don't see why the question almost always relies on one person paying for everything, rather than paying for what you were responsible for ordering.

I prefer fiercely independent people to this "take care of me" attitude though. It's shocking to me that I lived with a girl for a couple years since I'm so independent, but then again, it worked precisely because this chick was just as strongly independent as I was. We'd occasionally go out to eat, and we'd pay our own ways. It's nice to meet like-minded people in regards to the extent of one's independence, financially and otherwise. It's hard to meet such people though, because there is little interest on each side to depending on each other very much or become too close. :lol


----------



## vicente

ardrum said:


> That whole "who pays" question is quite funny to me, since it reminds me of very traditional viewpoints that men are the strong protectors and providers while women are the helpless, defenseless, birthing machines.
> 
> I'm kind of surprised that any women still want this stereotype to live on


Some women like the tradition, they think it's "polite" if the man pays for everything, holds doors for her, and pulls out the chair for her, even though they would never do such a "polite" thing for their man. Some women feel that they're not being treated like a "lady" if a man doesn't do all of these things, and that a man doesn't deserve her if he doesn't put her on a pedestal. These women also hate feminists but continue to enjoy the rights that feminists fought for.


----------



## srschirm

ardrum said:


> That whole "who pays" question is quite funny to me, since it reminds me of very traditional viewpoints that men are the strong protectors and providers while women are the helpless, defenseless, birthing machines.
> 
> I'm kind of surprised that any women still want this stereotype to live on, but I suppose it might be largely rooted in biology to feel vulnerable or desire protection and dependence upon the great provider.


Well see the thing is, many women want it both ways. They want the man to provide but they also enjoy the opportunities the last couple generations of women have enjoyed. They want to perpetuate the cushy situation that they currently have.

I said many women, not all or even most.

And Ardrum, I didn't know you lived with a woman. I'm a bit surprised to read that. Do you have any insights on what it was like? Do you prefer your current situation?


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## CoconutHolder

Well a guy definitely shouldn't do anything he doesn't want to do. If that means he'd prefer not to pay for whole meal, then so be it. If the girl doesn't mind this and likes it that way then yeah, I'd bet those two make a good match. But If the guy wants to pay (btw, typically guys get paid more than girls anyway) and the girl can save a few bucks, why not? It is nice to be treated well and I don't see anything wrong with that. It is also good to be able to hold your own, no matter who you are, to not feel like you are "dependant" on someone to take care of you. But hell, I do like being taken care of once in a while. I do a lot of taking care of other people, so what is so bad about enjoying a little being taken care of myself? I do nice things for my husband also. Hell, sometimes I'm the one who grabs the door and holds it. I like to treat him well too. It goes both ways. If I have cash on me, I usually pay the tip. If I had the money on me and offer to pay, sometimes I do. 

Whats my point? I don't know. No really my point is that their is nothing wrong with being treated special by someone who cares about you.


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## ardrum

vicente said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> 
> That whole "who pays" question is quite funny to me, since it reminds me of very traditional viewpoints that men are the strong protectors and providers while women are the helpless, defenseless, birthing machines.
> 
> I'm kind of surprised that any women still want this stereotype to live on
> 
> 
> 
> Some women like the tradition, they think it's "polite" if the man pays for everything, holds doors for her, and pulls out the chair for her, even though they would never do such a "polite" thing for their man. Some women feel that they're not being treated like a "lady" if a man doesn't do all of these things, and that a man doesn't deserve her if he doesn't put her on a pedestal. These women also hate feminists but continue to enjoy the rights that feminists fought for.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my roommate was a feminist, and I'd bet at least some women would be resentful toward her insistence on being financially self-sufficient (but not being resentful toward gaining the right to vote as a direct result of the work of feminists, hehe).

She would express concern over guys she met trying to impose themselves upon her as leaders/providers in an unwelcome manner. It's not like she'd attack them or bite their heads off (since many guys are trained to think that's what they have to do to not be considered an @hole, and they almost always have good intentions), but she'd simply tell them that such actions weren't necessary or attractive to her and then take responsibility for herself. Personally, I found her approach to be more attractive than the traditional female financial submissiveness that we still commonly see.

Perhaps a lot of men still like that "submissive girl" sort of stereotype though, so that could also contribute to why we see these roles continued. For instance, some guys would be insecure about a woman paying for dinner, and would insist on paying for both meals due to the desire to be dominant.



srschirm said:


> And Ardrum, I didn't know you lived with a woman. I'm a bit surprised to read that. Do you have any insights on what it was like? Do you prefer your current situation?


I really enjoyed the experience, actually. At times I miss her. She only lives a couple hours drive away (her own apartment), but I haven't seen her in about a year and a half.

We met freshman year of college. Well, she met me, really. She forced herself into my dorm room, basically, and asked if she could walk with me to class since she saw me walking to class alone. I agreed, delighted at my luck of meeting someone without much effort at all on my part. We became really good friends, and decided to move in with each other in an apartment for our last two years of college. I'm a very private person, so I liked that I'd have my own room and bathroom with only a shared living room/kitchen/balcony. It was a good time.

As far as preferring my current situation (my own apartment)... I would prefer this to about 98%+ of any other living situation. I don't think I'd like living with the vast majority of people, since they usually come across as "clingy" to me. I guess I just prefer to have my own privacy and ability to go off to a place where I know I can be alone. That 2% or so of other situations would be situations in which I'd meet another person with similar levels of independence.

I actually have another female friend who is now trying to convince me to move to her city and live with her. I have joked around with her about how private I am, and how I don't want her talking to me too much (in a joking manner). While she both understands this and finds it very humorous, I still can't see myself actually living with her. I like her, but I don't think living with her would be a good idea.


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## quietgal

Well the same applies to girls too, I don't think girls should expect the guy to pay for everything either. I absolutely think it's important for women to be financially independent. My mother worked herself near to death to support her family, _and_ manage the household, while my dad did nothing at home and nothing outside of the home (except rack up enormous debts). Maybe that experience has colored my view of the issue a little bit. I know the vast majority of men are probably more responsible than that, but there are those out there who aren't, and I happen to find that particularly unattractive.


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## ardrum

quietgal said:


> Well the same applies to girls too, I don't think girls should expect the guy to pay for everything either. I absolutely think it's important for women to be financially independent. My mother worked herself near to death to support her family, _and_ manage the household, while my dad did nothing at home and nothing outside of the home (except rack up enormous debts). Maybe that experience has colored my view of the issue a little bit. I know the vast majority of men are probably more responsible than that, but there are those out there who aren't, and I happen to find that particularly unattractive.


 :ditto

People who don't seem to have any control of their spending and debt, or who refuse to save money with some blind belief that they'll still have enough money in the future to sustain themselves, are more unattractive than those who do know what they're doing with their lives in this regard.


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## nubly

my ex girlfriend would sometimes pay for our meals. but we were in a relationship. i mean i wish i went out on a date with a woman who i wasnt in a relationship with and didnt expect the man to pay for everything all the time


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## Karizma

i cant stand men who love themselves. not that i go looking lol im in a relationship, but
this one time ..i dated this guy who i had nothing in common with..he was so in love with himself that he couldnt see why i would "pass somebody like him up"


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## ardrum

Karizma said:


> i cant stand men who love themselves. not that i go looking lol im in a relationship, but
> this one time ..i dated this guy who i had nothing in common with..he was so in love with himself that he couldnt see why i would "pass somebody like him up"


Hah! Sounds like the extreme opposite to a lot of SAS guys. Why would anyone be interested in us??


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## Karizma

lol.
nothing worst then someone who thinks their gods gift
:wtf :wtf 
arrgh, cant stand em!


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## dez

-


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## Shoeless

Karizma said:


> i cant stand men who love themselves. not that i go looking lol im in a relationship, but
> this one time ..i dated this guy who i had nothing in common with..he was so in love with himself that he couldnt see why i would "pass somebody like him up"


I agree with this.

Also, being completely honest, I don't like fat people. Just as far as general physical attraction goes, it pretty much repels me, but that's not to say I shun people because they're fat. If I got to know somebody I think I could look past that. Most of my female friends were overweight, and I've never really had any male friends, so you know.

Also I can't stand really short hair. Like buzz cut short. I love it longer. The longer the better, really. Some people can't pull it off though, so that's assuming that they look good with it. The guy I'm currently attracted to has hair longer than mine which is a little bit past my shoulders.

As far as what I find unattractive, that's honestly all I can think of. I've found a lot of people attractive in the past -- Short, chubby people; Tall, skinny people; Dark hair, light hair, average-length, long hair, et cetera. (With faces it's hard to pinpoint exactly what's attractive or unattractive, so with that it's anything goes for me.) The guy who I was moderately obsessed with last year was only like, 5'3"ish or something (that's a guesstimate) and had slightly longer than average length dark brown hair. He was also a little chubby (I'd seen him with a shirt off - don't ask - he was quite curvy) but it was mostly his personality I was attracted to. I tend to find the more funny, confident kind of guy attractive (the complete opposite of me basically). I kind of empathize with shy guys, which is probably what makes them unattractive to me, if that makes sense. :/


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## nubly

^ shoeless women are attractive


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## kj6754

dez said:


> I knew I shouldn't have read this thread.


lol Someone should be a warning on this thread because it can seriously mess with your self-esteem.

my feelings are hurt.


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## LostinReverie

Yes, but one way people boost their self-esteem is by announcing who they believe isn't "good enough" for them. 

You should just be glad you're helping people feel good about themselves.


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## ardrum

Well, there's a big difference between stating what specific traits you find unattractive and announcing _who_ isn't "good enough" for you. It's quite possible to simultaneously not be attracted to a trait someone possesses while not feeling that the person isn't "good enough" for you. Separate issues.


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## LostinReverie

I disagree.


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## njodis

I agree with LiR and kj6754, and I'm pretty surprised this thread has gone on for so long, to be honest.


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## nubly

ardrum said:


> Well, there's a big difference between stating what specific traits you find unattractive and announcing _who_ isn't "good enough" for you. It's quite possible to simultaneously not be attracted to a trait someone possesses while not feeling that the person isn't "good enough" for you. Separate issues.


:ditto


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## njodis

Still has the same result on the person reading about how unattractive you think they are.


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## ardrum

njodis said:


> Still has the same result on the person reading about how unattractive you think they are.


If someone doesn't like a thread, why do they keep reading it though? This blame-everyone-but-myself sort of attitude toward our emotions and self-esteem does not solve anything.


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## LostinReverie

And the I'll do and say whatever I want as long as it makes me feel good regardless of others attitude doesn't help any.


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## ardrum

LostInReverie said:


> And the I'll do and say whatever I want as long as it makes me feel good regardless of others attitude doesn't help any.


I agree. There are plenty of situations in which speech should be refrained.


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## nubly

ardrum said:


> njodis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still has the same result on the person reading about how unattractive you think they are.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone doesn't like a thread, why do they keep reading it though? This blame-everyone-but-myself sort of attitude toward our emotions and self-esteem does not solve anything.
Click to expand...

that type of mentality is what helps US attorneys make money


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## Wingclipped

x


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## Shoeless

People probably keep reading in the hopes that someone will post that generally undesired characteristic as something that they like in a spouse.

I didn't read the entire thread though because I didn't want to get hurt either.


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## LostinReverie

Wingclipped said:


> Why let it hurt you that one or even 10 people out of the billions on this earth don't find your type to be attractive? There are many many people who would not find me attractive at all, and they're entitled to their opinion.


Because it would be great if attraction was merely instinctive, but it's not. It's mostly a learned trait and since our modern day society is so interconnected with the latest technology, all you need to do is plug your kid into the TV to download his preset worldview.


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## Wingclipped

x


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## TheGecko

The reason I find extreme loudness unattractive is that I am intimidated by people like that, not because of media influence, though I do agree it plays an enormous part in what people find physically appealing in the western world at least.


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## ardrum

I've never been attracted to people who hit me, but I suppose I'd think it was immensely attractive if the TV said so.


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## CoconutHolder

LOL!


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## nubly

ardrum said:


> I've never been attracted to people who hit me, but I suppose I'd think it was immensely attractive if the TV said so.


:lol


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## B-Dog

I read all the posts, I made this long comment and deleted it. It was 3 paragraphs about me sitting in the middle. So here is a readers digest paragraph.

I don't like extremes. Not too skinny but not too big. I don't like girls to be taller than me, I wouldn't say its a dominance thing...but then maybe it is. I don't like to think of it that way but that the only way I can rationalize something like that. I am not very hard to please aesthetically. Its a binary thing though. I do or I don't. I'm not half in half out. In that I wont like some features and not the others. I like a cute face but that is completely subjective. Just because one person said you weren't attractive doesn't mean that I will too. I am more of a personality guy. I don't like an overbearing clingy girl. Or one that tries to pull my away from my friends all the time. I had spent so much time alone I hang out with my friends alot. We have all become quite close and I met a girl and she would hardly let me hang out with them anymore. She wanted me to focus only on her and I understood her side of it but I never ignored her when we all hung out, but I digress and you get my point. I don't like girly girls, but I dont like tomboys either. Jealousy, stuck up and girls who want relationships for marriage and babies exclusively need not apply.

Its really hard to say what I don't find unattractive. I am not super picky.


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