# Avoidant personality disorder? Anyone?



## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

This is my first post on this awesome forum, so hi! I want to come clean and say that I don't have SA, but I do have avoidant personality disorder, which I have read described as possibly being a more extreme form of SA. (Oh good.) So I hope you will be understanding and welcome me as a brother in, um, suffering?

Anyways I have also read that a significant number of people with SA also have APD. So if there are any such peoples reading this I would love to hear from you regarding how you feel you are different from SA peoples without APD, how you act around other people, and how you think you are viewed by the people who know you. Much thanks!


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## ktbare (Sep 13, 2009)

Yes I have been diagnosed with this amongst other things. I have an extreme case of social anxiety disorder basically. Welcome to the forums.


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## BetaBoy90 (Jan 5, 2010)

Welcome to the forums, there are alot of people on this forum, all with varying degrees of SA between them. I'm sure you'll find many people with AVPD like severity to their SA so their isn't any need to worry about not being accepted.

I for one used to only post on an AVPD forum for the last couple of years, I feel I'm near Avoidant levels of anxiety, even though I've been slowly scratching my way out of the hole I was in. Hopefully you find what you're looking for on this forum!


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Thank you K! Man that was quick. Is that pic you? Cute as hell. I should warn you that there is a good chance I may have already fallen in love with you, I just might not realise it yet. Jk.

So can I take it that you don't see a clear distinction between SA and APD? I'm aware that I can appear confident, in control, witty and even charming when I want to, or more accurately, when I'm with someone who doesn't matter to me emotionally. But this is just a facade and when anyone gets close I start to fear they will see through it and not like what they see. Classic avoidant, can SA peoples do this too? I think of them as more obviously extremely shy and quiet and vulnerable. Pretty soon I don't have time to see that friend anymore and I push them away like the others. Even though closeness and intimacy is what I crave. (Insert avoidant sob story here.)

But I guess maybe there is simply a spectrum of SA and we are all unique.


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## ktbare (Sep 13, 2009)

Thank's for the nice comments.

Basically as far as I know I was diagnosed AVPD because of the extremeness of my social anxiety as well as my constant fantasies and avoidance.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

I see thank you K that's helpful. And thanks for the welcome too BB90, I'm honoured. This is my first post on any forum, I will get around to the AVPD one but there is much for me to learn here. I don't think my case is as severe as some as I'm 35 and only discovered I had it by finding a definition online by accident. About two weeks ago. I can see now that it has got worse in the last 2 years (awful rejection by a girl number 9 I think). But I think I can fight back by educating myself and resisting the negative narcissistic pull, and challenge my beliefs about myself. I don't want to, and doubt that I can, change who I am, but I will decide what I am. I'm still processing the information though, it's a shock to realize that your own sub-conscious has been BS-ing you your whole life.

I have an interesting story to tell about above rejection. I now firmly believe that she has SA, maybe quite seriously, and might not know it. I'll be asking for some advice in a couple of weeks once I have my own head a bit straighter. I was intensely confused about what happened between us at the time, but now it all makes total sense. Long story for another night.


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## VagueResemblance (Apr 17, 2010)

Welcome to the board.


Helpmeunderstand said:


> I don't think my case is as severe as some as I'm 35 and only discovered I had it by finding a definition online by accident. About two weeks ago.


I'm not sure where the line between social anxiety, social phobia, and AVPD lay. Degrees of the same thing in my eyes. I've got AVPD symptoms and probably fit, but I really don't like the label; it boils down to being afraid of people and avoiding them, simple as that.



> But I think I can fight back by educating myself and resisting the negative narcissistic pull, and challenge my beliefs about myself. I don't want to, and doubt that I can, change who I am, but I will decide what I am. I'm still processing the information though, it's a shock to realize that your own sub-conscious has been BS-ing you your whole life.


I like what you're saying here, and I like you attitude. Refreshing change from defeatism.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks Vague one. Yes re labels its a little to easy to let the definition of our problems start to define us. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm a unique person rather than just an 'avoidant personality'.

And re attitude as I said I think others may have it worse than me and I can understand completely how they might be resigned to it. For me tho giving in seems like the logical conclusion of the AvPD thought pattern. I felt myself sliding into it: "I'll never approach a girl again, no thanks." and I've had days, weeks, and months blur together while I did nothing and avoided everything. 

But now I'm aware I can challenge my own thinking and I see defeatism as a part of the AvPD. So I'm not buying it.


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> This is my first post on this awesome forum, so hi! I want to come clean and say that I don't have SA, but I do have avoidant personality disorder, which I have read described as possibly being a more extreme form of SA. (Oh good.) So I hope you will be understanding and welcome me as a brother in, um, suffering?
> 
> Anyways I have also read that a significant number of people with SA also have APD. So if there are any such peoples reading this I would love to hear from you regarding how you feel you are different from SA peoples without APD, how you act around other people, and how you think you are viewed by the people who know you. Much thanks!


i have avoidant personality disorder.

it is exactly the same same as social anxiety, exactly the same . the only difference is the severity of it . if you have avoidant personality disorder it absolutely dominates your whole life, its like every single everyday situation triggers anxiety in you, and your level of avoidance is off the charts

someone with social anxiety doesnt suffer as extremely as someone with avpd cos the anixety is triggereed in almost every situation in there life. take wayne rooney the footballer as an example. he has social anxiety but still he copes with being famous and being in the spotlight, he has a wife and he has a great carear. somebody with avpd could not handle being famous and it would be extremely unlikely for them to have a wife (and no waynes hasnt got a waife for the simple fat that he is famous. they were together in highschool)

you cant have both sa and avpd they are the same thing. if you say youve got sa then you are basically saying ''ive got social anxiety that is less severe than avpd''. but if you say that youve got avpd you are saying ''ive got type of social anxiety that is more severe than social anxiety disorder''

saying youve got both doesnt make any sense if you see what i mean ?


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## livefast3315 (Apr 22, 2010)

Hey , Welcome 

Isn't this the same as SA to some degree?

If not, another name for SA?


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

i think they're the same livefast. there's no real meaningful distinction between them as far as i know, just different names. 



ktbare said:


> Thank's for the nice comments.
> 
> Basically as far as I know I was diagnosed AVPD because of the extremeness of my social anxiety as well as my constant fantasies and avoidance.


i have the fantasies too. i'd like to hear about yours.


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## mcmuffinme (Mar 12, 2010)

I've been diagnosed as a "social phobic", but from what I've read APD fits better. I tend to fantasize about things I would like to happen to me, and make it hard for people to get to know me. I started taking prozac and I've been less able to draw out my storylines I've made in my head, which kind of sucks because I liked escaping into my fantasy world :/


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

the description of APD fits me to a tee.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks so much to everyone who has made me feel welcome. 

Hey Muffin, is the prozac helping? Is it worth the side-effects? I'm very wary of prozac and the like as I've heard it can deaden your personality somewhat, and can have other sife-effects. I'm trying 5-HTP right now. I've just started so it's too soon to make a judgement. I've heard mixed opinions about it from those who say it saved their life, to those who say it did nothing, to those who say they had 8 hours of violent vomitting and were somewhat put off by that. I'll let you know how it goes.

Hey Donovan, it's interesting some strongly feel there is no real distinction between SA and AvPD. I'm not firm in my opinion yet, but my own feeling is that they are not exactly the same, but they are basically different flavours of the same thing. We are unable to regulate our emotions like other people, and we sub-consciously develop a slightly different defense mechanism to deal with it. 

Also, rightly or wrongly I don't know, SA is classed as an anxiety disorder and AvPD is called (more insultingly) a personality disorder. Though I'm starting to feel that this distinction could be meaningless. 

Lastly, AvPD is considered more difficult to treat than SA (though some here might take issue with that I'm sure). Maybe that's just because it's a more extreme kind of SA, but it might also suggest some sort of difference between the two, even if only a subtle one.

Please feel free to disagree, I'm really just trying to learn more.


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

i don't think the distinction matters much. if you wanted you could define social anxiety disorder differently and thus make them into differently flavors of the same thing but i don't think it's really an important difference. the treatment for both would likely be the same.


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## sunbunny (Sep 20, 2007)

I would also classify myself as avoidant, but not necessarily as socially anxious. There's alot of times when I feel no anxiety at all interacting with others, but it still doesn't mean that interaction will go smoothly. I'll find a way to muck it up. haha

For me personally, I think I've become avoidant because people just don't have positive reactions to me. No one really tells me I'm awesome or a cool person, etc. And lately I've been realizing I can be pretty hostile towards people (not angry, but just making snide comments or sarcastic comebacks that kind of attack the other person). But I do it because I don't feel any warm fuzzy vibes from people! Argh, it's so frustrating. 

But it's like, which came first the chicken or the egg? Do I act this way because I constantly feel people don't like me, or do people not like me because I act this way?


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

sunbunny said:


> I would also classify myself as avoidant, but not necessarily as socially anxious. There's alot of times when I feel no anxiety at all interacting with others, but it still doesn't mean that interaction will go smoothly. I'll find a way to muck it up. haha
> 
> For me personally, I think I've become avoidant because people just don't have positive reactions to me. No one really tells me I'm awesome or a cool person, etc. And lately I've been realizing I can be pretty hostile towards people (not angry, but just making snide comments or sarcastic comebacks that kind of attack the other person). But I do it because I don't feel any warm fuzzy vibes from people! Argh, it's so frustrating.
> 
> But it's like, which came first the chicken or the egg? Do I act this way because I constantly feel people don't like me, or do people not like me because I act this way?


feeling shy or socially anxious are halmark symptoms of avoidant personality disorder. if you avoid people for other reasons, it's not necessarily avoidant personality disorder. frequently making snide or sarcastic comments is also not a behavior i would consider typical of avoidtant personality disoder. most avoidants are too afraid of the attention, confrontation and judgement that could result.


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> Thanks so much to everyone who has made me feel welcome.
> 
> Hey Muffin, is the prozac helping? Is it worth the side-effects? I'm very wary of prozac and the like as I've heard it can deaden your personality somewhat, and can have other sife-effects. I'm trying 5-HTP right now. I've just started so it's too soon to make a judgement. I've heard mixed opinions about it from those who say it saved their life, to those who say it did nothing, to those who say they had 8 hours of violent vomitting and were somewhat put off by that. I'll let you know how it goes.
> 
> ...


honestly you can trust me on this one sa and avpd are identical aprt from level of severity.

im 27 and have been looking for help since i was 18. ive read every book out there, tried every form of theraspy , every self help product, ive read every single description on the net, ive got experience in actaully trying to change my disorder , basically i know what im talking about


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

I agree with recipie for disaster. I keep my snide comments to myself. 

Thanks Donovan I have no doubt you know what you're talking about, very helpful thank you.


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## Erizal (Apr 20, 2010)

I thought that I had AvPD for a while, I practically have all of the symptoms of it, but I was told by my therapist that I was too young to be sure.


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## sunbunny (Sep 20, 2007)

Recipe For Disaster said:


> feeling shy or socially anxious are halmark symptoms of avoidant personality disorder. if you avoid people for other reasons, it's not necessarily avoidant personality disorder. frequently making snide or sarcastic comments is also not a behavior i would consider typical of avoidtant personality disoder. most avoidants are too afraid of the attention, confrontation and judgement that could result.


I definitely feel shy and anxious a lot of the time. Making snide remarks is something I think I do automatically, as a way to keep people distant. And one of the hallmark qualities of avoidants is inability to be close to people.

But, i don't mean to hijack this thread. I do however think there is more than one way that someone would manifest behaviors of AvPD.


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## EYB (Jun 20, 2010)

I hadn't even heard of avoidant ..... whatever - but from what you describe it's me to a tee and yes SA has been a HUGE part of my life - but I didn't know there was really a distinction between the two as I've avoided people- social situations all my life, yet you would never describe me as shy on the outside but I have only allowed one 1 person to get close to me- the others- they don't stand a chance.

Want intimacy but run away from it- go figure. 

So I agree with most of the threads here- it's just a matter of degree


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

I will anymouse I promise.  I have plenty of thoughts and questions for this forum.

My own feeling having read a lot on this forum about the experience of SA sufferers is that AvPD and SA are different. The difference is subtle but meaningful. And there is a different emphasis regarding the things that we are afraid of and the things we fear the most.

I think there are three things confusing matters. One, it seems that some people with severe SA, (or maybe it doesn't have to be severe I don't know), can develop avoidant behaviour and internal thinking patterns to the point where they fit all the criteria for AvPD as well as having severe SA. I cannot imagine how tough that must be. Two, I've often seen it said that AvPD is a more severe form of SA, like it's worse. And in a way I think it is, but not in terms of the pervasiveness and intensity of the anxiety. There is a severity spectrum for SA and a severity spectrum for AvPD. Third, and probably the biggest one, from the outside a person with SA can appear very similar, and have the same behaviour, (avoidance), as someone with AvPD. But the internal thought process is different.

We share many of the same fears as SA sufferers. But our biggest is being FOUND OUT. I can appear confident, cool, witty, and even charming in a wide range of social situations, I can be chameleon-like, empathising in with rich or poor, high brow or low brow. But inside I feel like this person I present is a facade, a front, something I use to keep people at a distance from me. We obsessively, and sneakily (in a sub-conscious way) use our interactions with other people to analyse them with the objective of determining to what extent we can trust them, or more accurately, how much threat there is from this person that they might see through the facade and see the unlikable true person within. To do this I must consider all aspects of the person, character, body language, information surrendered by themselves or others, peer group, beliefs, even what clothes they wear. The longer I know someone, the more of a file I have on them. This analysis is happening constantly, we are scanning for any sign of criticism or rejection or that they could betray us. Sadly, because we are looking so hard, we inevitably find it, blow it out of proportion, and that person goes on the 'avoid' list. Even if a friend, by some miracle, has not made my list yet, I'm always waiting for my chance to leave, to be alone, after all, what if I do or say something to give myself away? But we believe that others must be analyising us in the same way (ego-syntonic: until we somehow become aware of our disorder we have _no clue_ that we are different from other people), so we must constantly be on our guard to maintain the facade such that no one can see through it.

But who do I have left to analyse when I'm alone? Me. I believe we share this with SA. Endless self-analysing, and the conclusions are not pretty. We conclude we are inferior human beings without hope of change. Narcisstic self-hatred can result. The split between the facade and the true self can become disturbing and confusing, down that road can be psychosis, self-harm, and suicide.

Some people here are deeply upset by minor, even trivial, social embarrasments. Not me. These present no threat to my fears. I have no panic attacks. The anxiety is more of an ever-present hum, the level rises and falls according to the conclusions and fears I have about other people or myself. This can build up to an intense level.

It all starts from an inabilty to regulate emotions (amongst other things). Same with SA I think. We just feel people too much, on an intuitive, instinctive level. It's overwhelming, so we develop these maladaptive defense mechanisms to deal with it. One of the ironic ones is flat affect, emotionless facial expression, used to hide the emotional anxiety inside.

Occationally I meet intuitive people who are a bit suspicious of me, like they can sense that I'm hiding something. I either avoid them or, talk to them more so they can get to know me (not too much) if I have to be around them in some way so they can see I'm actually a nice person (which I am). Very few people have any concept of what a personality disorder is, especially mine, so they dismiss their initial concerns and decide I'm just a bit different. Danger averted.

The desire for someone to connect to and love is intense, but the threat of rejection is too powerful, so we avoid any situation where that could happen. Common interactions with strangers or people who are not important to us emotionally are fine, (though I'd prefer to avoid all interaction). The facade can deal with them or I can just leave. But when someone tries to get close the facade becomes inadequate, it starts to slip, and we have no strategy for dealing with people without it. They could find out. Anxiety shoots up, we become evasive and aloof, leave as quickly as is socially acceptable, and my avoid list gains another member.

This is all my own experience and opinion, but this is a personality disorder, ego-syntonic, the problem is me.

"It doesn't matter what I do, what I choose, _I'm_ what's wrong." Dexter Morgan


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## abracadabra (Dec 5, 2009)

I've never been diagnosed, but from what I've read in the past and from what you've written, it describes me. The only thing I can offer is that as an avoidant, it would be tough for me to come clean as an avoidant as you have, being honest about the crappy way I think and act with other people. Because when you're this way, you always end up treating people poorly. You're personable and kind until you need to get away.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Exactly abrcadabra. I've realised that I have pushed a lot of good friends away over the years, just stoped talking to them, when they were only trying to help as best they could.

We look around at other people and conclude there is no way they could understand how we feel. We can tell no one, trust no one. No one can be allowed to find out, they would think we are nuts, they might tell other people.

I will shoot the next person that tells me to "Just be myself".

Helpmeunderstand also hates: "Move on." "Get over it." "Snap out of it." "Pull yourself together." 

I used to also hate "Stay positive", but I'm giving that one a second chance.


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## abracadabra (Dec 5, 2009)

This is why I don't even want to attempt to create relationships with people because if I were really honest from the get-go, I would say to someone, "We're going to get along really well and you're going to like me, but when you least expect it, I'm going to cut you out of my life."


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## mcmuffinme (Mar 12, 2010)

> Hey Muffin, is the prozac helping? Is it worth the side-effects? I'm very wary of prozac and the like as I've heard it can deaden your personality somewhat, and can have other sife-effects. I'm trying 5-HTP right now. I've just started so it's too soon to make a judgement. I've heard mixed opinions about it from those who say it saved their life, to those who say it did nothing, to those who say they had 8 hours of violent vomitting and were somewhat put off by that. I'll let you know how it goes.


Prozac has helped a little, but I'm still bad at saying what I mean, and saying enough, and I still feel pressure to be liked and say the right thing, and feel like I failed after the fact...but I think I'm slightly less stressed...I might just be so anxious to recover that I exaggerate the effects of the drug to myself. It's hard for me to tell.

When did you hear it deadens your personality? That sounds awful. I hope that hasn't happened to me- not that I had a brilliant personality beforehand


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

abracadabra said:


> This is why I don't even want to attempt to create relationships with people because if I were really honest from the get-go, I would say to someone, "We're going to get along really well and you're going to like me, but when you least expect it, I'm going to cut you out of my life."


I hear you. When some kind of friendship starts and I start thinking the "could this person going hurt me" thing, now I'm also thinking, "am I going to end up pushing you away".

And *Muffin*, didn't mean it quite like that, take it from me, one's personality is very resilient indeed. I've just heard of side-effects like lethary, loss of interest/motivation, etc. I'm glad it's helping if only a little.
I suspect that you in fact _do_ have a brilliant personality, you just might not realise it. After all you had the chance to choose your own name here, and you chose mcmuffinme. That's proof enough for me.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

sunbunny said:


> I definitely feel shy and anxious a lot of the time. Making snide remarks is something I think I do automatically, as a way to keep people distant. And one of the hallmark qualities of avoidants is inability to be close to people.
> 
> But, i don't mean to hijack this thread. I do however think there is more than one way that someone would manifest behaviors of AvPD.


Hey sunnybunny. I wasn't trying to imply I doubted you have AvPD, it's just not my style of distancing. We are all unique.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

abracadabra said:


> This is why I don't even want to attempt to create relationships with people because if I were really honest from the get-go, I would say to someone, "We're going to get along really well and you're going to like me, but when you least expect it, I'm going to cut you out of my life."


Honestly I think we have to try, even if we do end up avoiding them. Friends drift apart all the time. I've made some great friends, we just seem to focus on the 1-3 good ones we have now, and the rest are just... history. What's the alternative? Don't try to have friends? Get a t-shirt printed that says: "Warning: Personality Disorder - Do Not Approach"?


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

anymouse said:


> what i like most is the realisation that the self-analysis can be rooted in perfectionistic narcissism-- i can say this is definitely true for a good deal of mine! though i initially label it self-loathing, in fact it's wanting to be perfect that causes the actual loathing!! i'll write more later if i don't self-analyse myself into not posting anymore at all! if i do, don't take it personally! you are a welcome addition to this board indeed!!!
> 
> :idea


Good point anymouse. I guess that's why we are so sensitive to criticism, it conflicts with our perfectionism, so we avoid the person who did it. But we are our own worst critic, so I guess we can even push ourselves away, (see self-deserting avoidant).

And thank you for your kind, encouraging words! :yes Please write more as long as your self-analysis permits it.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

anymouse said:


> hey, did you just edit that in? cuz i don't remember reading it, are my eyes off or are you acting like me!? okay, yes, i've been drinking, so it's likely i missed it the first read.


Yes I did edit it in.  I often think of things I want to add after the fact. Or maybe you _are_ starting to rub off on me... Being my first and so far only friend here.

Happy drinking anymouse. :drunk


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

I consider myself to have avpd though I have not been formally diagnosed. Years ago I used to think SA and avpd were different but that was when I had only met a few people with SA and they were kinda odd, even by SA standards and I got the wrong impression. Now that I have met tons of SAers and AVPDers online I think avpd is just a more extreme form of the same thing.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

LALoner: the difference explained, quite clearly, here:

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...led-the-difference-between-sa-and-avpd-94565/


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## engima (Feb 3, 2009)

I don't really see the difference beyond severity also, or not too clear about it in any case if someone knows. The avoidance of emotion to me just means the anxious feeling are too powerful to handle so they're repressed or distracted from. If they weren't so powerful there would be less repression, and with that the ability to feel the physical symptoms would emerge naturally. The root cause just seems like a deeper form with avoidant being rejected for reasons of their identity versus SA for rejection due to how they appear to others (but really isn't that just their identity on a less deep level since the choice is still theirs on how to act). I checked out the link also, maybe just not reading it right.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

engima said:


> I don't really see the difference beyond severity also, or not too clear about it in any case if someone knows. The avoidance of emotion to me just means the anxious feeling are too powerful to handle so they're repressed or distracted from. If they weren't so powerful there would be less repression, and with that the ability to feel the physical symptoms would emerge naturally. The root cause just seems like a deeper form with avoidant being rejected for reasons of their identity versus SA for rejection due to how they appear to others (but really isn't that just their identity on a less deep level since the choice is still theirs on how to act). I checked out the link also, maybe just not reading it right.


Not even the big section marked 'differences' swayed you?

SA: fear of being judged, i.e. that others might form negative opinions of them somehow, rightly or wrongly.

AvPD: fear of being found out, i.e. that others might see through the facade they present to others and see the unlikable true person within.

There are people here with severe SA much worse off than I.


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## mighty atom (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm not clued up about the difference - but it sounds from this that I have AVPD !
I find i can interact up to a level - the impersonal, superficial level - like if a stranger on the street makes a comment i can reply fine and i think to anyone listening i would sound fairly happy and outgoing.

But i have no friends and can't get close to people - i'm terrified of them and of what they thinnk of me or what i'm really like, you know? That i'm a deeply horrible person who nobody should have to know and eventually they will realize this and I'll be so ashamed I'll want to creep away and die.

I often fantasize about being like others, having relationships and all that closeness with others - but I just can't do it.

Does anyone else have extreme reactions as well? 
Like if someone starts to mention things they think you should do or they sort of belittle how bad you feel, by saying things like 
'you just have to give it a go' 
'you'll never have friends if you don't go out and meet people' or the best one 
'everyone has doubts and worries' things like that - like everyone else feels just like this - but they are all so strong and capable that they are fighting it and 'getting on' with life...and i'm just a pathetic wimp who gives in and is lazy.

When people say this sort of thing to me I really have a hard itme controlling my emotions and seem to spiral out of control for days -like I am right now after an online 'friend' said stuff . I get almost suicidally depressed, i lose any interest in food and my training and i get so angry i don't know what to do with myself. I feel like i want to scream and rant so much that i cause myself to just explode into a million pieces! solving the problem and anihilating myself from the planet.

Does this sound totally crazy or is there anyone who can vaguely relate?

:afr



Helpmeunderstand said:


> Thank you K! Man that was quick. Is that pic you? Cute as hell. I should warn you that there is a good chance I may have already fallen in love with you, I just might not realise it yet. Jk.
> 
> So can I take it that you don't see a clear distinction between SA and APD? I'm aware that I can appear confident, in control, witty and even charming when I want to, or more accurately, when I'm with someone who doesn't matter to me emotionally. But this is just a facade and when anyone gets close I start to fear they will see through it and not like what they see. Classic avoidant, can SA peoples do this too? I think of them as more obviously extremely shy and quiet and vulnerable. Pretty soon I don't have time to see that friend anymore and I push them away like the others. Even though closeness and intimacy is what I crave. (Insert avoidant sob story here.)
> 
> But I guess maybe there is simply a spectrum of SA and we are all unique.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Hey Mighty Atom, no you're not alone. I can more than vaguely relate. Did you read my story above? And you're not crazy! My favourite piece of advice I receive: "Just be yourself!" Makes me want to do this: :twak


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## mighty atom (Mar 5, 2009)

Hey Helpmeunderstand!

I've just re read your story and it's so spot on

this bit really rings true


> But we believe that others must be analyising us in the same way (ego-syntonic: until we somehow become aware of our disorder we have _no clue_ that we are different from other people), so we must constantly be on our guard to maintain the facade such that no one can see through it.
> 
> But who do I have left to analyse when I'm alone? Me. I believe we share this with SA. Endless self-analysing, and the conclusions are not pretty. We conclude we are inferior human beings without hope of change. Narcisstic self-hatred can result. The split between the facade and the true self can become disturbing and confusing, down that road can be psychosis, self-harm, and suicide.


I notice lots of details about all sorts of things and if i can see them how can others not? hence i think why i'm forever paranoid about how i look - surely everyone else muct see how stupid/unattractive etc i look?

I've certainly got the self hatred and i think there is a real spilt between the facade. It's like the facade is there to protect you - but you know that people don't know you or how hard you find everything and then if you try to hint about stuff they are never going to see it because they see you as no different from anyone else they know. I now constantly self medicate with alcohol so i don't have to feel so much all the time. 
Of course this is just making me hate myself more for what i know i'm doing to myself and wishing it would all end.
It's a vicious cycle.

Would be good to hear more of your views - as it's nice to have some more insight into all this!

Take care


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

mighty atom said:


> I notice lots of details about all sorts of things and if i can see them how can others not? hence i think why i'm forever paranoid about how i look - surely everyone else muct see how stupid/unattractive etc i look?
> 
> I've certainly got the self hatred and i think there is a real spilt between the facade. It's like the facade is there to protect you - but you know that people don't know you or how hard you find everything and then if you try to hint about stuff they are never going to see it because they see you as no different from anyone else they know. I now constantly self medicate with alcohol so i don't have to feel so much all the time.
> Of course this is just making me hate myself more for what i know i'm doing to myself and wishing it would all end.
> ...


Ok I say look at it this way. You can turn to the dark side or the, um light side, (the good side? the nice side? the smurfy side? Yoda didn't really say did he.) Darth Vader turned to the dark side and look what it got him: bitter, hateful, black cape. Do you really think anyone wanted to hang with Darth Vader after work? No. And a black cape? Nobody wants that. Luke skywalker turned to the light side and look what he ended up getting. He got... um... an ewok party...er, thrown in his honour...

Ok so that analogy didn't turn out so great but seriously, remind yourself that no one is scrutinizing you anywhere near as much as you are yourself. You notice those details because you are looking so hard for them.

I've felt better for accepting myself for who I am. Isn't there a part of yourself that you like? Hold on to that person, in spite of the AvPD BS that keeps confounding it. See the self-hatred as an illusion, a logical result of the AvPD thought pattern. Just try to imagine how it would feel if you didn't do that, if you just didn't.

But to do that you must stop using alcohol. Honestly take a look around your local bar and cast your cold, clinical AvPD analytical gaze over at the other people trying to 'feel better' with booze. Is it working? Do they look happy? Of course not. That evil sh*t will eat you up from the inside and you know it.

Don't go to the dark side. Which would you rather have: black cape or happy ewok friends? Er, yeah ok don't answer that. Just don't go to the dark side.


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

mighty atom said:


> I'm not clued up about the difference - but it sounds from this that I have AVPD !
> I find i can interact up to a level - the impersonal, superficial level - like if a stranger on the street makes a comment i can reply fine and i think to anyone listening i would sound fairly happy and outgoing.
> 
> But i have no friends and can't get close to people - i'm terrified of them and of what they thinnk of me or what i'm really like, you know? That i'm a deeply horrible person who nobody should have to know and eventually they will realize this and I'll be so ashamed I'll want to creep away and die.
> ...


Welcome to my life.


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> SA: fear of being judged, i.e. that others might form negative opinions of them somehow, rightly or wrongly.
> 
> AvPD: fear of being found out, i.e. that others might see through the facade they present to others and see the unlikable true person within.


This isn't different enough to be a separate disorder. Of course you will tell me that it is. At some point you need to accept that this a matter of opinion.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

I've stated a number of times that this is my opinion. What _would_ be enough to make it a seperate disorder?


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## engima (Feb 3, 2009)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> Not even the big section marked 'differences' swayed you?


lol, strangely enough it didn't convince me of the actual difference at all. Both are afraid of being judged on different levels of their identity. Avoidant takes it as an personal identity issue and possibly being betrayed, whereas SA takes it how they choose to act, but that in itself is really just an extension of personal identity (how they choose to act is a choice based on their identity). How a person chooses to externally represent themselves actually extends from internal reasons. Maybe SA and avoidant personality are just different viewpoints looking at the general same issue?

I've think that I have avpd, and casual conversation is not that hard as it reveals nothing about the self really. Strangely enough this is how I feel. I am capable of performing casual conversation with strangers flawlessly as it does not truly involve revealing anything about my identity. Such as asking a shop's person 'where is blank' and 'what are your hours'. I have no problem with this, but if someone asked me personal questions I would get very anxious since it leaves opportunity for betrayal. I also have a hard time cracking jokes since it reveals what kind of comedy I like or find amusing (revealing part of my identity to others).

Maybe SA is even worse since it blocks even casual conversation with others. Unless it is thought that even casual conversation reveals self identity which would then refer to an avoidant issue since the person is afraid of their identity being rejected. Ah so confusing to me..


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## Squirrelevant (Jul 27, 2008)

I've been told by several therapists that they think I have AvPD, but they didn't bother going through any formal diagnosis really (no practical use). Some symptoms I don't relate to, but I do know that there is something beyond mere anxiety holding me back from people. I am definitely a very avoidant person.

I find it hard to say and do things that I'm well aware will reflect me in a positive light to others, including giving genuine complements, consoling people and showing interest in them. I knowingly allow people to assume negative things about me based on the limited information I give them. I'm afraid of giving people higher expectations of myself than I can live up to. I often avoid entering into conversations with potential friends (people I feel I would like) because I expect my awkwardness to bring things to a messy end. I anticipate the need to escape from others quickly and set up most of my interactions with people in a way that makes it easier to permanently avoid them if I need to. I have deleted and blocked whole droves of people from my IM contacts and various friends lists on social networking sites for these reasons alone.


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm 99% sure I have AvPD (never been formally diagnosed with anything even though I've been to several therapists). I'm still not sure if I have SAD as well or if it is just AvPD. Doesn't really matter I guess though.


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## Whoareyou (Jun 8, 2010)

I hate avoidant personality disorder, I HATE IT I HATE IT I HATE IT it kills me


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

^ me three


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> I've stated a number of times that this is my opinion. What _would_ be enough to make it a seperate disorder?


****MM75 edited****
The links and evidence you provide aren't as convincing as you think they are. The examples you provide aren't that convincing. There is a reason why people have divergent opinions on this subject. Its one of those issues where there isn't enough evidence to convince everyone. This is one of those issues which knowledgable people disagree on.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

LALoner said:


> The links and evidence you provide aren't as convincing as you think they are. The examples you provide aren't that convincing. There is a reason why people have divergent opinions on this subject. Its one of those issues where there isn't enough evidence to convince everyone. This is one of those issues which knowledgable people disagree on.


Seems to me that you're doing to me exactly the thing you're accusing me of doing you. I'm allowed to have my opinion, and I'm allowed to defend it. You just said this is an issue on which knowledgable people disagree so... What's the problem? If you think my opinion is ill-informed, I can think of more polite ways to discuss it.

At least I'm trying to provide evidence for my position, all I've heard from you so far is "You're wrong," "I disagree," and now insults. If you'd like get around to explaining why you disagree, then I'd like to hear it. That's all I was trying to ask you. That's why I started this discussion, I'm open to the possibilty of my opinion being changed. If I came across as arrogant, I apologize.


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

LALoner said:


> You need to grow up. The links and evidence you provide aren't as convincing as you think they are. The examples you provide aren't that convincing. There is a reason why people have divergent opinions on this subject. Its one of those issues where there isn't enough evidence to convince everyone. But you act like there is enough evidence. And when someone disagrees with you you assume they are uniformed and have not studied the issue. I have studied this issue for years. I don't need you to give me some stupid link. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't know as much as you. Show some maturity and understand that this is one of those issues which knowledgable people disagree on.


in all fariness the fact that there are 2 seperate disorders - SA and avpd - is enough evidence to proove that they are different disorders. otherswise there would just be one disorder right ?


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

engima said:


> lol, strangely enough it didn't convince me of the actual difference at all. Both are afraid of being judged on different levels of their identity. Avoidant takes it as an personal identity issue and possibly being betrayed, whereas SA takes it how they choose to act, but that in itself is really just an extension of personal identity (how they choose to act is a choice based on their identity). How a person chooses to externally represent themselves actually extends from internal reasons. Maybe SA and avoidant personality are just different viewpoints looking at the general same issue?
> 
> I've think that I have avpd, and casual conversation is not that hard as it reveals nothing about the self really. Strangely enough this is how I feel. I am capable of performing casual conversation with strangers flawlessly as it does not truly involve revealing anything about my identity. Such as asking a shop's person 'where is blank' and 'what are your hours'. I have no problem with this, but if someone asked me personal questions I would get very anxious since it leaves opportunity for betrayal. I also have a hard time cracking jokes since it reveals what kind of comedy I like or find amusing (revealing part of my identity to others).
> 
> Maybe SA is even worse since it blocks even casual conversation with others. Unless it is thought that even casual conversation reveals self identity which would then refer to an avoidant issue since the person is afraid of their identity being rejected. Ah so confusing to me..


Yes good point Enigma. I think seeing SA and AvPD as different flavours of the same thing is really pretty hard to argue against. But I do think that we have different fears. If someone forms a negative opinion of me somehow for example, like "He's a snob," or "He's doesn't like me," "His taste in clothes sucks," that would be a big deal for someone with SA, but not for me any more than for others. That's worrying about how others _perceive _them. I worry about that, but only regarding them possibly figuring out that I'm defective. If someone said of me "I think he's hiding something, I don't trust him," or "He's lazy he avoids doing stuff," "He's creepy," that would be a problem for me, as it's getting too close to the truth.

You could reply that both fears are about identity on different levels, and you could be right, I just think that the difference is significant enough that the experience of the SA person is different from the AvPD person. For SA peoples (as I understand it) their affliction is obvious, intrusive and a problem seperate from their private inner personality, ego-dystonic. Whereas until they somehow become aware AvPD sufferers might not even realise they are different from other people (though I always had a vague suspicion that I never took seriously...), nor that they have a 'problem', as there is no seperation between the problem and the personality. Ego-syntonic. To me that's a fundamental difference.

Just my opinion as I currently understand things, I hasten to add.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

anymouse said:


> ^ agreed, cept the alcohol bit, all's good in moderation, yes? this said from having a chocolate beer for lunch.


Sure moderation is fine, though alcoholics shouldn't drink at all I think. However frequently drinking to numb your inner pain somehow, self-medicating, that's a well known path to alcoholism.

Forgive my ignorance anymouse, but what is a chocolate beer?


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

here's a comment i found in one of my books that pretty much sums things up:

''_social phobia is an anxiety disorder in which the defining feature is a persistant fear of and immediate anxiety reaction to social situations.... avoidant is essentially a problem of relating to persons; social phobia is largely a problem of performing in situations''_


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## engima (Feb 3, 2009)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> If someone forms a negative opinion of me somehow for example, like "He's a snob," or "He's doesn't like me," "His taste in clothes sucks," that would be a big deal for someone with SA, but not for me any more than for others. That's worrying about how others _perceive _them. I worry about that, but only regarding them possibly figuring out that I'm defective. If someone said of me "I think he's hiding something, I don't trust him," or "He's lazy he avoids doing stuff," "He's creepy," that would be a problem for me, as it's getting too close to the truth.


but aren't the latter examples also just fears of how you're being perceived by others but it just hits you on a more personal level. I guess that's what you're emphasizing the difference to be? But then again aren't there different levels about how personal something is, or how much the rejection is related to how they view their identity.



> For SA peoples (as I understand it) their affliction is obvious, intrusive and a problem seperate from their private inner personality, ego-dystonic.


I think the problem here is how do you define what's separate from private inner personality since all choices on how to act come from there.



> in all fariness the fact that there are 2 seperate disorders - SA and avpd - is enough evidence to proove that they are different disorders. otherswise there would just be one disorder right ?


I think that's hard to say, can always think about the same problem in different ways. There's a great amount of overlap between the two. There seems to be quite a few of scientific papers debating the difference also. The way I've been thinking about the two kind of follows the conclusion from this paper, http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118640997/abstract,
which concludes that they're alternate conceptualizations for the same disorder. There's another here that tries to argue the difference but says it's inconclusive (needs more information): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19728570. If anyone has a link to a study that finds them different I would be very interested in reading it.


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

engima said:


> but aren't the latter examples also just fears of how you're being perceived by others but it just hits you on a more personal level. I guess that's what you're emphasizing the difference to be? But then again aren't there different levels about how personal something is, or how much the rejection is related to how they view their identity.
> 
> I think the problem here is how do you define what's separate from private inner personality since all choices on how to act come from there.
> 
> ...


to be honest there is hardly any information in those 2 links that you reconmended

the fact that avoidants have both cognitive and emotional avoidance aswell as social avoidance is enough on it's own to determine that the 2 disorders are different. on top of that there is even more difference between the 2.

if you find a social phobic who does not suffer cognitive and emotional avoidance then that person does not have avoidant personality disorder they have social anxioety disorder.


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## introvert33 (Jun 23, 2010)

Hmm...yeah the links are to abstracts, not the whole article

But I also am not quite sure about the difference between the two. I see the differences pointed out in the other thread, but I just don't know if anyone reading that would be like 'yeah I'm SA not AvPD'. Plus, everyone goes on about how everyone experiences SA differently, so someone could have a more generalized form and another a more specific form and it would still be one problem.

"*social phobics fear social situations because they fear being judged or evaluated negatively by others 
*avoidants fear social situations because they are worried that their real self will be exposed and they they will be rejected as a result of it"

Are there really people who fear being judged negatively, but not because they are worried their "real self" when exposed will be rejected? Idk, but it doesn't seem like it to me, but maybe that's my own view getting in the way.

"*social phobics feel self concious in social situations becasue they are trying to prevent people noticing their symptoms such as blushing, shaking etc..."

Again I just don't see anyone thinking that the ONLY reason they feel self-conscious is because of the threat of their physical response to anxiety, i.e. blushing, shaking, etc.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

I read a woman's story here who said she turned around to talk to some guy at the supermarket because she thought he was talking to her. He wasn't. This was so massively embarrassing to her that it ruined her whole day. I realize that's pretty severe, but this type of fear is totally foreign to me. Like Donavan said, our fears are to do with _personal relationships_, more than social situations.

Agreed introvert some of the things on that list are perhaps over-simplified.

Enigma the second study didn't say inconclusive, it said: "To conclude, the studies summarized provide support for the view that social phobia and avoidant personality disorder are more than arbitrary cutoffs along a continuum of social anxiety." A lot of the other studies just seem to focus on 'diagnostic criteria' rather than discussing inner experiences. You said: "I think the problem here is how do you define what's separate from private inner personality since all choices on how to act come from there." Maybe I'm presuming to know what others are thinking here, (has been known to happen), but as I understand it for SA sufferers their anxiety is an obvious intrusive thing that 'happens to them' without them understanding why, so from their perspective the negative choices on how to act that result from their anxiety are things that they would not have chosen if they didn't have the anxiety. It's something that 'holds them back' from being who they want to be. In that way it's 'problem' that's seperate from their personality. Whereas with AvPD the problems are inside your personality, there is no seperation. Until we somehow become aware of the disorder, we might have no idea at all that we have a 'problem'.

I think they are strongly related, and probably have the same root cause. I feel that the two are _different_ defense mechanisms developed to deal with basicly the same problem. But I feel that ego syntonic/dystonic difference means that the inner experience between the two is significantly different. That's all. Further confusing things, I think people with SA develop avoidant traits and vice versa. But of course we are all unique individuals so these can manifest themselves differently. For us that means we each have our own experience of these things, and no doubt that experience slants our viewpoints on this debate. So we might end up having to agree to disagree.


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> Seems to me that you're doing to me exactly the thing you're accusing me of doing you. I'm allowed to have my opinion, and I'm allowed to defend it. You just said this is an issue on which knowledgable people disagree so... What's the problem? If you think my opinion is ill-informed, I can think of more polite ways to discuss it.
> 
> At least I'm trying to provide evidence for my position, all I've heard from you so far is "You're wrong," "I disagree," and now insults. If you'd like get around to explaining why you disagree, then I'd like to hear it. That's all I was trying to ask you. That's why I started this discussion, I'm open to the possibilty of my opinion being changed. If I came across as arrogant, I apologize.


The arguments you provide demonstrate microscopically small differences between SA and AvPD and then you refuse to acknowledge that reasonable and well informed people could have examined the same evidence you examined and arrived at different conclusions.

Its clear from this thread that many people disagree on this subject. Accept that this is one of those subjects where all knowledgable people are not in agreement. Don't assume anyone who disagrees with you needs a link thrown in their face.


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

introvert33 said:


> Hmm...yeah the links are to abstracts, not the whole article
> 
> But I also am not quite sure about the difference between the two. I see the differences pointed out in the other thread, but I just don't know if anyone reading that would be like 'yeah I'm SA not AvPD'. Plus, everyone goes on about how everyone experiences SA differently, so someone could have a more generalized form and another a more specific form and it would still be one problem.
> 
> ...


regarding your last paragraph - if you look at the clark and wells model for social anxiety you will see that the physical symptoms of anxiety are the exact reason for the self conciousness


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

let me tell you that i personally have both disorders and from my own experience there is definatley a significant difference between the 2. ive had avpd since i was 5 and my whole life ive felt inferior to other people and felt like i was unnatractive sort of thing , not acceptablet o other people as a person. ive felt like other people are mean and critical and ive hid myself and avoided people my whole life.

then when i was 18 i developed SA and i started feeling really anxious in situations like i just needed to escape and get out of there. i started blushing and getting embarrassed all the time and i wouldnt go places in case something embarrassing happend or incase i blushed 

for me the 2 disorders have effected me in significantly different ways to each other


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## engima (Feb 3, 2009)

introvert33 said:


> Hmm...yeah the links are to abstracts, not the whole article


Hmm.. there should be links to full study on each page right? The first one it's at the top, and second you have to hit that plus sign on the bottom for full source.



Helpmeunderstand said:


> Agreed introvert some of the things on that list are perhaps over-simplified[...]
> A lot of the other studies just seem to focus on 'diagnostic criteria' rather than discussing inner experiences


How would a psychologist who doesn't have SA or Avpd be able to diagnose the disorder if it wasn't based on diagnostic criteria though? They couldn't really understand because they can't relate on inner experience like people here on the forums can I would think. I guess it does seem impersonal in a way though.

For the second study, it does provide support for the distinction but at the end under concluding remarks they state that they need more information to clarify the actual difference though, the boundary as they put it. "Consequently, we still need more knowledge to clarify the boundaries between social phobia and avoidant personality disorder". Part of the ongoing debate for it it seems as the abstract says "Since then a major nosological theme in research has concerned whether or not social phobia and avoidant personality disorder represent distinct clinical categories.


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## engima (Feb 3, 2009)

donavan said:


> let me tell you that i personally have both disorders and from my own experience there is definatley a significant difference between the 2. ive had avpd since i was 5 and my whole life ive felt inferior to other people and felt like i was unnatractive sort of thing , not acceptablet o other people as a person. ive felt like other people are mean and critical and ive hid myself and avoided people my whole life.
> 
> then when i was 18 i developed SA and i started feeling really anxious in situations like i just needed to escape and get out of there. i started blushing and getting embarrassed all the time and i wouldnt go places in case something embarrassing happend or incase i blushed
> 
> for me the 2 disorders have effected me in significantly different ways to each other


how did you develop SA when you were 18? When you say you just needed to escape and get out of there, how was that different than wanting to escape and avoid people with avpd alone?


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## introvert33 (Jun 23, 2010)

engima said:


> Hmm.. there should be links to full study on each page right? The first one it's at the top, and second you have to hit that plus sign on the bottom for full source.


ok, now I see it :doh thanks 

interesting, basically they point out that we need more information, its hard to tell, and why its hard to tell


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

I'm pretty sure I have APD.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

engima said:


> I think that's hard to say, can always think about the same problem in different ways. There's a great amount of overlap between the two. There seems to be quite a few of scientific papers debating the difference also. The way I've been thinking about the two kind of follows the conclusion from this paper, http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118640997/abstract,
> which concludes that they're alternate conceptualizations for the same disorder. There's another here that tries to argue the difference but says it's inconclusive (needs more information): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19728570. If anyone has a link to a study that finds them different I would be very interested in reading it.


Thanks for the links Enigma, I also didn't realize that you could see the whole text. I can tell you from experience that a psychology study will very often include the ***-covering, diplomatic, "but we could be wrong, further research is needed in this area" type statement somewhere in it's conclusion. Like its a mandatory cliche.

My ego was pleased to find that the researchers in the second link came to conclusions along very similar lines as me. The first one didn't sway my view as (if I read it right) they seems to focus on diagnostic criteria rather than consider their inner experience which is what I'm interested in, the measures they used seemed too broad like 'both view themselves as socially inept', and they only compared people with AvPD to people with AvPD _and _SA. They mention this as a possible limitation of their study in the conclusion. Their reasoning was that if they are different then they should be able to see a difference between the two groups. But considering how much these two disorders overlap, how on earth would they measure that? On a scale of 1 to 5 please tell me how me how afraid you are of social situations? I'm more interested in a comparison between non-comorbid AvPD and SA, if you find any interesting studies like that please do let me know.

Interesting stuff much appreciated!


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

engima said:


> How would a psychologist who doesn't have SA or Avpd be able to diagnose the disorder if it wasn't based on diagnostic criteria though?


I was meaning that the studies use the diagnostic criteria for the two disorders as a means of means of trying to measure a difference if any. But the criteria is too not specific enough in my opinion ('views self as socially inept'). However studies like this can't really ask subjects about their own personal subjective inner experience as they would, rightly, be accused of being unscientific. They have to use a measure that comes up with a number. 'AvPD people scored 7.6 on this measure.' But this is psychology, not physics right? Doesn't someone's inner experience matter? I have a degree in psychology and believe me, psych students have been banging their heads against this problem for a long time.



engima said:


> They couldn't really understand because they can't relate on inner experience like people here on the forums can I would think. I guess it does seem impersonal in a way though.


Yup. That's why I'm keen to talk to people here about it.



engima said:


> For the second study, it does provide support for the distinction but at the end under concluding remarks they state that they need more information to clarify the actual difference though, the boundary as they put it. "Consequently, we still need more knowledge to clarify the boundaries between social phobia and avoidant personality disorder". Part of the ongoing debate for it it seems as the abstract says "Since then a major nosological theme in research has concerned whether or not social phobia and avoidant personality disorder represent distinct clinical categories.


See my other reply to you. But yes despite what certain members here seem to wrongly assume about me I'm aware that the debate is ongoing and that if someone disagrees with you on this one all you can do is offer your own opinion. (Which is all I've done.)

Input from peoples like yourself however, much appreciated!


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

donavan said:


> let me tell you that i personally have both disorders and from my own experience there is definatley a significant difference between the 2. ive had avpd since i was 5 and my whole life ive felt inferior to other people and felt like i was unnatractive sort of thing , not acceptablet o other people as a person. ive felt like other people are mean and critical and ive hid myself and avoided people my whole life.
> 
> then when i was 18 i developed SA and i started feeling really anxious in situations like i just needed to escape and get out of there. i started blushing and getting embarrassed all the time and i wouldnt go places in case something embarrassing happend or incase i blushed
> 
> for me the 2 disorders have effected me in significantly different ways to each other


Hey Donavan, like enigma I'd like to hear more about how you think they have affected you differently. Also, up until recently you felt strongly that there was no difference right? So what point exactly changed your mind?


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

engima said:


> how did you develop SA when you were 18? When you say you just needed to escape and get out of there, how was that different than wanting to escape and avoid people with avpd alone?


when i was a kid growing up every sunday my dad would take me and my sister to my nans house to visit the whole family. there would be about 10 of us sitting together in the living room for about 7 hours every sunday. back in those those days i just used to sit in silence and say nothing. i didnt like being there but i was still able to stay there for 7 hours. by staying silent i wasnt giving anything away about my real self that could be rejected or ridiculed.

nowadays i just could not be in that situation. i simply could not sit in a room with 10 people. i could not do it. i couldnt last 7 minutes never mind 7 hours. back when i was a kid i didnt have an overwhelming urge to get out of there and escape the situation. if i did i simply would have refused to go in the 1st place but the fact that i went every week for about 10 years proves i didnt. nowadays if i was in that situation i would just have an overwhleming urge to get out. id feel myself about to go red int he face and id just say to myself ''ive got to get out of here i cant let them see me go red'' then id make an excuse to leave and i would never ever go back again , i would refuse to ever put myself in that sitaution again

i dont know how i developed SA when i was 18, i think it might have had somethingto do with taking ecstacy every week


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> Hey Donavan, like enigma I'd like to hear more about how you think they have affected you differently. Also, up until recently you felt strongly that there was no difference right? So what point exactly changed your mind?


well for starters when i was growing up i never used to have physical symptoms. i never used to blush or shake or sweat or anything like that when i was a kid. i would blush at extremely embarrassing moments but who doesnt? nowadays i blush all of the time for nothing. just waling into a room makes me blush, infact every time i speak i usually blush.

i think the fact that it took me to the age of 18 before i realized i had a problem is proof of the difference between SA and avpd. now listen carefully cos this is a very important point. if since the age of 5 to the age of 18, 13 years, i had paniced everyday and blushed and got sweating palms everytime i was around people then i think its fair to say that it wouldnt be long before i realised that i had a probelm. i would have said something like ''something is not right here, i panicked and blush all of the time but nobody else does'', i would have realised i ahd a probelm.

but for 13 years i didnt even realise i had a problem. and you know why ? cos i just thought it was who i was. my problems did not stem around panic and physical symptoms of panic. no my problems stemmed around my PERSONALITY therefore i didnt realise i had a problem. i just thought this was the way i was, it was just me , what i was like, that it was part of my personality

i had a friend who i had been friends with since childhood and he was always quite outgoing. he had lots of mates in school , he always got along with people, always went out in groups and he was always playing for football teams at the weekend. he had no problems. then when he was about 18 he started taking drugs every week and he also started having some problems at home with his family.

at that time i noticed scoial anxiety develop in him. he started blushing in normal situations for no reason at all and he would get embarrassed by it and make excuses by saying to people ''bloody hell its hot in here isnt it, open that window please''. and then on other ocasions he would ask me to have dinner in work in this little quiet room were nobody goes instead of going to the canteen were there were crowds of people. again he would make excuses and says ''its full of d!ckheads int he canteen''.
everytime he entered a room you could see the anxiety and self conciousness and general discomfort on his face

but the thing was his personality didnt change. he was just the same old person with the same personality. the only difference was that he started getting really anxious and umcomofrtable in situations and started avoiding them

avpd is a PERSONALITY disorder. its about who you are . i cant stress this enough


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> Hey Donavan, like enigma I'd like to hear more about how you think they have affected you differently. Also, up until recently you felt strongly that there was no difference right? So what point exactly changed your mind?


also in gillian butlers book there are 4 main chapters:

**changing thinking patterns - *this chapter is basically about identifying the thoughts that you have in social situations that are causing yuor anxiety. and being able to challenge those thoughts begin to think more realistically 
*
*doing things differently - *this chapter is about stopping avoidance. its about getting you to start facing theings instead of avoiding them and its about getting you to drop all of your silly sfatey behaviours 
*
*reducing self conciousness - *this chapter is about you learning how to focus on other people more instead of youself so that you can lose your inhibitions and start behaving more naturally
*
*building confidence *- this chapter is all about changing your long standing unconcious beleifs and assumptions. some people might beleive that if they show there real self then others will reject them. this beleive will casue them to behave in a certain way, maybe behave in a very conflicting way and put on a act or tell lies

gillian butler says something like this in her book. this is not word for word but a general discripion of what she says :

''_for a lot of people the 1st 3 chapters will be enough and that will be all they need to overcome there anxiety. but for others with a more serious probelm they will need to use the last chpater too''

_and that makes perfect sense becasue SA is basically:

*having negative thoughts in a social situation which produces anxiety
*avoiding social situations and using saftey behaviours when in social situations
*feelings self concious becasue you are so focused internally on your own symptoms

if you can stop having negative thoughts and anxious feelings in a scoial situation. and if you can stop avoiding situations and using safety behaviours and if you can focus on others and behave naturally then you haven't got SA anymore.

but avpd is more than that. its about your personaility. the way you behave. avpd have all kinds of beleifs and assumptions that can casue really strange behaviour and thats why the last chapter in the book is needed.

people with sa dont have beleifs about hiding their real selves which casues them to behave in conflicting ways. like i said my friend who developed SA when he was 18 didnt have probelms with his personality.


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

anymouse said:


> agree. and i found it ironic that people are trying to argue someone with a degree in psychology on here.


Just because someone has a degree in psychology doesn't mean they know everything. I have a degree in psychology and I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything.


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

^ ok, wasn't trying to start a fight anyway


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

^ thanks! i like you to


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

anymouse said:


> disagree. like borderline PERSONALITY disorder, it's a LEARNED behavioural disorder, NOT GENETIC, so therefore it is NOT "who you are"-- it can be UNlearned. thank god. because i learned both from my mom and sisters.
> 
> agree. and i found it ironic that people are trying to argue someone with a degree in psychology on here.


you are misunderstanding me. i never said it was genetic. nor did i say you are stuck with it

it is a learnt behavioural disorder but its a leanrt disorder about who you are , about your personality , thats what i meant


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Whitney said:


> Just because someone has a degree in psychology doesn't mean they know everything. I have a degree in psychology and I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything.


took the words right out of my mouth


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

anymouse said:


> ^ i don't wanna debate.
> 
> like joinmartin always says, reality is fluid.
> 
> ...


dont start one then


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

anymouse said:


> ^ did i?
> 
> oh the irony.
> 
> ...


you debated what i origionally said so yes you did start a debate


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

anymouse said:


> yes, i know. i realise these things a little after being pointed, out, thus my post apologising for the irony, donavan? seriously, i am trying to focus today. i think my 40mg of celexa is kicking in, don't ruin it for me. let me do more paperwork and forgive my ironic debate whining, k?


its fine , i dont know what all the fuss is about  i was asked a question by another member, i answered it. and then you commented on it so i commented back . then you said you didnt want a debate so ithought thats strange if you didnt want a debate then why comment on my post


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

anymouse said:


> disagree. like borderline PERSONALITY disorder, it's a LEARNED behavioural disorder, NOT GENETIC, so therefore it is NOT "who you are"-- it can be UNlearned. thank god. because i learned both from my mom and sisters.


Hey anymouse you're my good friend so don't hate me but, I agree with Donavan here. For me AvPD is totally tied up with who I am, it's not a problem that's seperate from me, it _is_ me. I've also read in a number of places that many researchers believe that there is a genetic disposition that makes people vulnerable to AvPD and SA, but it might not be neccesary nor sufficient for someone to develop it. It depends on your familial upbringing and other life experiences. So in that way it's learned. I've been thinking about certain members of my family and wondering if they had/have this disposition. You said you learned from your relatives... right? So I'm saying it might be both genetic and learned. But even if it is, Donavan is right you can change, it's about self-awareness and self-understanding, and for me self-acceptance.



anymouse said:


> agree. and i found it ironic that people are trying to argue someone with a degree in psychology on here.


I know you're supporting your friend here and thank you. But anyone is most welcome to argue/disagree with me and I welcome it. I feel I'm more likely to learn something from that.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Whitney said:


> Just because someone has a degree in psychology doesn't mean they know everything. I have a degree in psychology and I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything.


Totally agree there. Some psychologists are among the most messed up people on earth... I know your comment wasn't really directed at me but I also would like to add, again, that what I've been saying is just my own opinion and I could be wrong. I hope I havn't come across as a 'know it all', I also have a degree in philosophy so I guess I have a trained debating style which may have contributed to any such impression.


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## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> Hey anymouse you're my good friend so don't hate me but, I agree with Donavan here. For me AvPD is totally tied up with who I am, it's not a problem that's seperate from me, it _is_ me. I've also read in a number of places that many researchers believe that there is a genetic disposition that makes people vulnerable to AvPD and SA, but it might not be neccesary nor sufficient for someone to develop it. It depends on your familial upbringing and other life experiences. So in that way it's learned. I've been thinking about certain members of my family and wondering if they had/have it. So I'm saying it might be both genetic and learned. But even if it is, Donavan is right you can change, it's about self-awareness and self-understanding, and for me self-acceptance.


I agree that there can be some kind of genetic component to it (at least for some people) but that it is not _completely_ caused by genetics. For example, I started showing signs of it as young as 4 or 5, and I no of know trauma or anything significant that would have triggered it like for some people. I actually had a pretty good life. I feel that I was genetically predisposed and I was ultra-sensitive to some things. However I don't use this as any kind of excuse, I still feel that there are changes that I can make. I feel that some of it will always be a part of me, but that I have the power to significantly improve my life if I work hard enough at it and do the right things to change.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Donavan thank you so much for your thoughtful replys. I found it very interesting. It makes sense to me that someone with severe AvPD is most likely going to end up developing SA too, and vice versa. Or maybe it doesn't have to be severe, or maybe it just depends on the person and their experiences. Not sure.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Whitney said:


> I agree that there can be some kind of genetic component to it (at least for some people) but that it is not _completely_ caused by genetics. For example, I started showing signs of it as young as 4 or 5, and I no of know trauma or anything significant that would have triggered it like for some people. I actually had a pretty good life. I feel that I was genetically predisposed and I was ultra-sensitive to some things. However I don't use this as any kind of excuse, I still feel that there are changes that I can make. I feel that some of it will always be a part of me, but that I have the power to significantly improve my life if I work hard enough at it and do the right things to change.


Yep you pretty much exactly described my experience too. I can recall these thought patterns from a young age, and certain childhood experiences now make sense to me. I had no serious trauma, but as I got older certain experiences, rejections, criticisms, made me get worse to the point where I am now. My case is thus not as bad as Donavan, who has previously mentioned an unfortunate childhood.


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## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

anymouse said:


> grrr. wait, "Donavan is right you can change"-- i'm the one who said that!!
> 
> i didn't mean to come off as overly defensive of you on here.
> 
> but did you read what i wrote-- i said we can UNlearn it. okay, POSSIBLY it could be inherited, but we can still be better, no? grrr = me feeling stupider and stupider the more i try to defend people on here.


I'm so sorry I think you got me wrong here, :afr yes I read you say we can unlearn it. I was agreeing with Donavan on the personality part not the unlearning part, and I just mentioned him because I was impressed by the long response had written and wanted to be supportive. That's all! I'm sorry if I seemed like I didn't acknowledge what you said enough. And yes of course we can get better, but we are the ones who have to do it.

You're my best friend here and I'm very glad you're defending me, I need it! :yes


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

get a room


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## engima (Feb 3, 2009)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> I can tell you from experience that a psychology study will very often include the ***-covering, diplomatic, "but we could be wrong, further research is needed in this area" type statement somewhere in it's conclusion. Like its a mandatory cliche.


Yea I hate that too, very difficult to come to a conclusion though that can satisfy everyone.



Helpmeunderstand said:


> But the criteria is too not specific enough in my opinion ('views self as socially inept')


Think that's major part of the problem with finding the distinction.



Helpmeunderstand said:


> I'm more interested in a comparison between non-comorbid AvPD and SA, if you find any interesting studies like that please do let me know.


likewise


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## engima (Feb 3, 2009)

donavan said:


> well for starters when i was growing up i never used to have physical symptoms. i never used to blush or shake or sweat or anything like that when i was a kid. i would blush at extremely embarrassing moments but who doesnt? nowadays i blush all of the time for nothing. just waling into a room makes me blush, infact every time i speak i usually blush.


Before you said though that Avpd can lead to avoiding certain thoughts since they are too painful. How do you know you weren't simply avoiding SA-related thoughts/feelings during that time? Did you know that ecstasy is thought to unlock feelings which are already present in the mind?



donavan said:


> everytime he entered a room you could see the anxiety and self conciousness and general discomfort on his face
> 
> but the thing was his personality didnt change. he was just the same old person with the same personality. the only difference was that he started getting really anxious and umcomofrtable in situations and started avoiding them


Why do you think his personality of your friend didn't change? Seems like his personality flipped from being outgoing and social to having SA.



donavan said:


> people with sa dont have beleifs about hiding their real selves which casues them to behave in conflicting ways


Doesn't this imply that if someone is being transparent to who they are in front of others (that they believe they are showing their true self to others), then Avpd and SA are the same thing?


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

engima said:


> Before you said though that Avpd can lead to avoiding certain thoughts since they are too painful. How do you know you weren't simply avoiding SA-related thoughts/feelings during that time? Did you know that ecstasy is thought to unlock feelings which are already present in the mind?
> 
> Why do you think his personality of your friend didn't change? Seems like his personality flipped from being outgoing and social to having SA.
> 
> Doesn't this imply that if someone is being transparent to who they are in front of others (that they believe they are showing their true self to others), then Avpd and SA are the same thing?


_*Before you said though that Avpd can lead to avoiding certain thoughts since they are too painful. How do you know you weren't simply avoiding SA-related thoughts/feelings during that time? Did you know that ecstasy is thought to unlock feelings which are already present in the mind?*_

because for the last 9 years (from 18-27) i have suffered physical symptoms of SA and the fact that i have avpd hasnt made these symptoms hide in the background becasue of avoidance of negative feelings

_*Why do you think his personality of your friend didn't change? Seems like his personality flipped from being outgoing and social to having SA.*_

he's the same old person. the only difference is he gets anxious and blushes . the way he relates to others, his manerisms his personality have not changed. i dont know how else to put it , it seems pretty clear to me

_*Doesn't this imply that if someone is being transparent to who they are in front of others (that they believe they are showing their true self to others), then Avpd and SA are the same thing?[*_

how do you work that out? it doesnt make any sense


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## engima (Feb 3, 2009)

donavan said:


> because for the last 9 years (from 18-27) i have suffered physical symptoms of SA and the fact that i have avpd hasnt made these symptoms hide in the background becasue of avoidance of negative feelings


I think that makes sense if you're not completely socially inhibited, otherwise it seems like it would be impossible to know.



donavan; said:


> he's the same old person. the only difference is he gets anxious and blushes . the way he relates to others, his manerisms his personality have not changed. i dont know how else to put it , it seems pretty clear to me


Hmm.. this really just depends on how personality is defined, I was just going by a different definition, I realize. I believe most people would say it's different though since not everyone knows him as well as you do.



donavan; said:


> how do you work that out? it doesnt make any sense


By showing your identity in a social situation (not forming a different persona for it), the rejection in the social situation could lead the person to think that it is a rejection of their identity could it not? Mostly just trying to see if there is a common area in which case depending on how one person sees things that they could be classified as having either SA and Avpd and both diagnosis would be correct.


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## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

engima said:


> I think that makes sense if you're not completely socially inhibited, otherwise it seems like it would be impossible to know.
> 
> Hmm.. this really just depends on how personality is defined, I was just going by a different definition, I realize. I believe most people would say it's different though since not everyone knows him as well as you do.
> 
> By showing your identity in a social situation (not forming a different persona for it), the rejection in the social situation could lead the person to think that it is a rejection of their identity could it not? Mostly just trying to see if there is a common area in which case depending on how one person sees things that they could be classified as having either SA and Avpd and both diagnosis would be correct.


i honestly dont get that last bit. im confused , sorry


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