# Is Diazepam more addictive than Clonazepam?



## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

The reason I ask this is quite simple.

A. 2.5 mg clonazepam is generally considered equivalent to 50 mg diazepam

B. 2.5 mg clonazepam is generally considered a "normal" daily dose and is readily prescribed (at least in the US)

C. 50 mg diazepam a day is generally considered a ridiculously high dose and is not readily prescribed

To me the only logical explanation would be that diazepam is more addictive than clonazepam when taken daily for anxiety even at equivalent dosages or that doctors in the US believe it is.

Would such a statement be true? Is diazepam more addictive as a daily anxiety medicine (not for recreational use) than the equivalent dose of clonazepam?

In other words which is more addictive?

A. Taking 2.5 mg Clonazepam a day

B. Taking 50 mg Diazepam a day

And if B is the answer then why?:stu


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Well I can't really know for sure, since I don't have an addictive personality, and I've never been addicted to a substance in my entire life so.... But I'd guess that whatever drug gives an individual a greater high, and the faster onset of this euphoria, would be the more addicting drug. Why do you ask? Do you have an addictive personality? Maybe you really are talking about which drug has a greater risk of dependence and not addiction?


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

Diazepam:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...&sig=AHIEtbR1uKkrvzZO5HIZ6DegsN6Gul2aAw&pli=1


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

Dr House said:


> Well I can't really know for sure, since I don't have an addictive personality, and I've never been addicted to a substance in my entire life so.... But I'd guess that whatever drug gives an individual a greater high, and the faster onset of this euphoria, would be the more addicting drug. Why do you ask? Do you have an addictive personality? Maybe you really are talking about which drug has a greater risk of dependence and not addiction?


I suppose you are right. Technically this is not about how addictive it is as in recreational use but about which drug has a greater risk for causing dependency to the anti-anxiety effects I take them for.


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

Kon said:


> Diazepam:
> 
> http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...&sig=AHIEtbR1uKkrvzZO5HIZ6DegsN6Gul2aAw&pli=1


Interesting read. Thank you for the resource.

Still I am not sure I agree with the author of the document. What he's essentially saying is that the benzo that is more addictive is the one that works faster and more effectively when you really read between the lines.

I also want to reiterate that I do not use benzodiazepines recreationally. I take them 3 times daily for relief of social anxiety.

But I do now better understand the difference between addiction and dependency.

What I am really trying to ask is whether 2.5 mg of clonazepam or the equivalent 50 mg of diazepam is more likely to cause physical dependence which is what I want to avoid as my ultimate goal is to one day come off all medication.


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

BeHereNow said:


> What I am really trying to ask is whether 2.5 mg of clonazepam or the equivalent 50 mg of diazepam is more likely to cause physical dependence which is what I want to avoid as my ultimate goal is to one day come off all medication.


I used benzos for 8 years. I think the answer is exactly the same: Diazepam. And in general long-time users/abusers tend to find diazepam more rewarding. Personally, benzos are jelly beans compared to narcotics with respect to abuse potential. I abused both but in my opinion the benzos only caused dependency; whereas the narcotics were highly addictive. Furthermore lorazepam/diazepam for me (as most of the research suggests) tends to cause dependency at a faster rate. But you can find a few papers that do question that. I don't buy it. With lorazepam/diazepam I build tolerance so fast that within a month they were useless for me. Clonazepam was slower to build tolerance for me. It lasted ~ 8 years.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Tolerance is not the same as dependency which is not the same as addiction


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## decadeAndAHalfOfSA (Jul 11, 2011)

50 mg of Valium is a lot, that's all I know. I was advised (not by my ignorant doctor) to taper directly off first Xanax and then Klonopin, until I got down to 30 mg Valium equivalent. 

So I didn't crossover to Valium till I got down to 1.5 mg of Klonopin = 30 mg Valium.

I'm not exactly sure why 50 mg is too much. In fact it might be fine if you are committed to tapering off the stuff. All I know is doctors don't like prescribing that much Valium. I think it goes back decades, because Valium is an older drug and there were a lot of addiction problems, back in like the 70s or 80s. I think it's just some stigma against Valium.


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## rustybob (Nov 19, 2009)

I would think that physical dependence would be the same (for the most part) across all benzos. From what I understand, the physical dependence stems from the fact that benzos do not increase GABA levels, they only increase the efficacy of it. So, when you take away the benzo, glutamate starts going crazy and the less efficace GABA can't handle the load.

Addiction-wise, I'd say it depends on the person. I've never tried clonazepam, but from what I've read on these forums it seems to be more euphoric. Chasing euphoria is an obvious addition trigger. I have had Valium, loved it. My Valium experience I'd describe as: it's not what I feel, but what I don't (as in, no anxiety). I had no euphoria or anything like that, just a total elemination of my anxiety, and it seemed to energize me rather than sedate me. For addiction potential of Valium, I'd say the relative lack of potency compared to other benzos could lead to abuse.

In terms of tolerance, I have nothing to back this up, but, hypothetically, wouldn't there be more/quicker tolerance towards Valium? Valium has active metabolites, clonazepam doesn't. As the Valium dosage increases, so would the metabolites, and because of cross-tolerance between benzos, I would think this could be pharmalogically significant. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this.

As for reluctance to prescribe 50mg of Valium vs 2.5mg of clonazepam, it wouldn't suprised me if the reluctance stems from the dosages of each available. To prescribe 50mg of Valium, it would take 5 pills of 10mg. For clonazepam, 1 pill at 2mg, and either half of 1mg or 1 of 0.5mg. One and a half or 2 pills is less than five, which probably makes the doctor feel better. Thinking of it that way is kind of stupid I think, but that's how some doctors are.


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## decadeAndAHalfOfSA (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons doctors are reluctant to prescribe a lot of Valium vs. other drugs is because of the stigma of Valium. Valium had been around for a long time and there has been a lot of high profile addiction cases involving celebrities etc. The media has covered it far more than Klonopin or Xanax.

Maybe there are other factors such as more marketing of Klonopin and Xanax too.

It's the best benzo for tapering, because of it's long half life though. You can straight taper off Klonopin, but it will be harder. I straight tapered off 2 mg Xanax (actually harder to taper off of) and then converted the rest (1 mg) to Valium and tapered. I also straight tapered off of .5 mg of K, before switching to 30 mg of Valium, for the 1.5 mg left.

Water titration and going slow really helps a lot, but Valium will make withdrawal a lot easier, because you will have less interdose withdrawal, because the drug will be in your system longer.

In the UK, they take benzos a lot more seriously and Professor Ashton knows what she's doing (and has plenty of experience) and Valium is what she recommends. She doesn't say anything about water titration though, but that just makes tapering so much easier.

I would demand your doctor change your withdrawal plan, because he is not doing it right and you may have some serious withdrawal problems and protracted withdrawal. Or find another doctor. Increasing Gabapentin to stop seizures and lowering the benzos that much is not good.


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## super (Sep 9, 2009)

popping that much of valium would deffs be more addictive


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## BeHereNow (Jun 1, 2011)

decadeAndAHalfOfSA said:


> I'm pretty sure one of the reasons doctors are reluctant to prescribe a lot of Valium vs. other drugs is because of the stigma of Valium. Valium had been around for a long time and there has been a lot of high profile addiction cases involving celebrities etc. The media has covered it far more than Klonopin or Xanax.
> 
> Maybe there are other factors such as more marketing of Klonopin and Xanax too.
> 
> ...


You have given me the best idea I heard so far. Fuk going straight to 15 mg valium a day. I just got invited over a friends house and I can't be having these symptoms come back now!

I'm going back on clonazapam, the medication which has worked for me for a long time (too long) then when I taper down to a reasonable amount of that so my dr. could prescribe the actual fukin equivalent I'll do the valium taper and I'll do it right!

Fuk ignorant doctors who hand out benzos like candy then have no clue how to taper people off:bash

But to end on a positive note I'm finally getting out for something other than work and doing something social and will be back on the med regime I know and trust to help me handle it the best I can:boogie


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## decadeAndAHalfOfSA (Jul 11, 2011)

BeHereNow said:


> You have given me the best idea I heard so far. Fuk going straight to 15 mg valium a day. I just got invited over a friends house and I can't be having these symptoms come back now!
> 
> I'm going back on clonazapam, the medication which has worked for me for a long time (too long) then when I taper down to a reasonable amount of that so my dr. could prescribe the actual fukin equivalent I'll do the valium taper and I'll do it right!
> 
> ...


Good. Just go slow to taper off Klonopin and use water titration when tapering off both K and then Valium. You can adjust the rate of withdrawal easily with water titration. If the withdrawal effects are too strong, then slow it down and toss 1 mg drug water/day instead of 2 or whatever. You can speed it up to if you want by increasing the amount of drug water you toss everyday. If you get to a point where the withdrawal effects are pretty bad, just hold on the current dose for awhile, until you feel stable and then start tapering again.

** Use water titration method -- trust me, it makes things a lot easier and minimizes withdrawal symptoms **

** Go as slow as possible. Tapering too fast will give you more withdrawal symptoms and protracted withdrawal will be worse **


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

All benzos are addicting. But diazepam should be easier to ween off because of the extremely long half-life.


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