# any good over the counter medication?



## MCSS (Sep 28, 2009)

Just curious, you know, mix 2 pounds of Altoids, 4 bottles of pepto dismol, one Twix bar, you know where I'm getting it lol jk. 

Seriously though, just curious or is it all prescription based?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

There exist the OTC antihistamines like diphenhydramine that pass the blood brain barrier - they may calm somebody down, I consider them dumb drugs. DXM is available too, but I don't think it's a brilliant idea to use it as a tool to self-treat SA. Other options are stuff like Valerian, L-Theanine, L-Glutamine, St. John's Wort and stuff that can be bought online without prescription like Picamilon, Phenibut... The most potent OTC anxiolytic is readily available: Alcohol... If one thinks he lives in hell because of SA & depression... self-treat with alcohol long + hard enough and then you know what real hell is.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

^^are you saying its impossible to self medicate with alcohol for years without encountering problems??id have to disagree, i know quite a few people that drink as soon as they get home from work...a few beers nothing more..they have done this for YEARS and dont seem to suffer from it..now, i know many will encounter problems down the road from this but some can do it..

dipenhydramine will lessen anxiety but it just makes me feel numb, very disinterested in everything..


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

belfort said:


> ^^are you saying its impossible to self medicate with alcohol for years without encountering problems??id have to disagree, i know quite a few people that drink as soon as they get home from work...a few beers nothing more..they have done this for YEARS and dont seem to suffer from it..now, i know many will encounter problems down the road from this but some can do it..


My point is: Self-treating psychiatric problems like a severe anxiety disorder or depression with alcohol is a bad idea.  Btw: "A few beers" daily is already too much - longterm (inreased risk for liver / pancreatic / cardiovascular... disease, cancer...).


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## The Strong Silent Type (Sep 24, 2009)

Yes, alcohol is definitely the easiest and most effective over the counter treatment if you are willing to endure the side effects and the disadvantages it will have on you health and longevity. Drink responsibly.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

MCSS said:


> Just curious, you know, mix 2 pounds of Altoids, 4 bottles of pepto dismol, one Twix bar, you know where I'm getting it lol jk.
> 
> Seriously though, just curious or is it all prescription based?


I don't think you would get any serious relief with over the counter stuff. Sedatives like Benadryl, Melatonin, etc. could help you out. I always found melatonin made me feel happy, but it also put me out.

St. John's Wort is an alright herbal remedy, although not real strong.


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

Ditto what medline said. 

For severe chronic anxiety there aren't any good OTC possibilities. The antihistamines work a little (unless you take too much and then you have a paradoxical reaction) bit but they make you drowsy so they are mainly for insomnia. Valerian is the best balance between safety and efficacy that I've found for anxiety, but it is probably not enough for severe anxiety. I have a lot of body anxiety so I will take valerian every once in a while, but again it makes me a little too sleepy.


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## MCSS (Sep 28, 2009)

I just.. cant converse man.. Its hard talking to people I know..and I dont really feel anxiety around people I work with, just people I've never seen before or like this one girl at work that I kinda gotta thing for, I get nervous whenever around her.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Yes... it often seems like society WANTS to drive people to alcoholism when the only other way to get relief is to grovel to a power-tripping doctor who may or may not give you something good.


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## The Strong Silent Type (Sep 24, 2009)

meyaj said:


> Yes... it often seems like society WANTS to drive people to alcoholism when the only other way to get relief is to grovel to a power-tripping doctor who may or may not give you something good.


I read this message a couple days ago and didn't think much of it, but now that I really think about it. I agree with you. In our society it is easier to drink and do illegal drug than it is to get real help. Most people who are alcoholics or drug addicts probably would rather have real help.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

The best thing to do is to get to a doctor.
Other than that, there is Valerian root, Kava Kava, and a product I have been trying with some success - Rescue Remedy and Rescue Sleep Sprays. You spray it twice on the tongue and the herbs do their work. The only problem is that the herbs are suspended in 27% alcohol, but the sprays are small and not habit-forming. It's like a weak NyQuil. They actually work.

I am already on Paxil, so these products are safe. I bought them at the health food store.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

rocknroll714, where do they sell L-dopa and nitrous over the counter? Haha. Oh and with DXM, are you referring to Olney's Lesions?


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> L-DOPA is in Mucuna Pruriens which you might be able to get OTC and N2O is in whippets of course! I've gotten N2O OTC in the form of whippets before. And DXM yeah, Olney's lesions, not to mention all the user reports of severe retardation after taking it.


Olney's lesions have never been observed in humans. And the doses rats have been given in studies are very, very high.

And in rats, it's an effect from pretty much all dissociatives (to be more precise, NMDA antagonists). Yes, that INCLUDES nitrous oxide, which administered to rats has been specifically observed to produce vacuolization... it's every bit as bad if you're concerned about Olney's lesions. Which you probably shouldn't be anyway, because as pointed out, the doses required are beyond extreme, and it hasn't been seen in a single human. In reasonable doses DXM, like other NMDA antagonists, is actually considered to be fairly neuroPROTECTIVE.

That being said, I still don't use DXM for anything other than cough suppression (which is rare, because my GP will prescribe me hydrocodone syrup for a cough!)

I know ketamine in particular has been studied as an antidepressant and from what I've read, it can have very powerful and rapid effects - although relapse is almost certain without some kind of continued therapy. Although, up until a few years ago I used to use ketamine semi-frequently and never took note of an anti-depressant after effect.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

NMDA antagonists aren't totally benign. Heavy use of ketamine and co. has resulted in permanent cognitive impairment in some users. I definitely haven't been the same since my daily K use, along with DXM, N20, etc..


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

euphoria said:


> NMDA antagonists aren't totally benign. Heavy use of ketamine and co. has resulted in permanent cognitive impairment in some users. I definitely haven't been the same since my daily K use, along with DXM, N20, etc..


Agreed, but heavy use of anything is rarely a good idea. Even drugs as physically benign as LSD or marijuana can create problems with constant use. I've seen a lot of research about the neuroprotective effects of DXM (even against physical trauma, like a car accident, DXM seems to protect brain cells.) I've never seen anything demonstrating neurotoxicity at reasonable doses... except for that one infamous article, which the author later retracted.

I've never used K on a daily basis (or any other drug for that matter), but it was one I particularly enjoyed... such a pure and clean dissociative that just abolished all the problems of the real world. However, I stopped with the dissociatives a few years ago because I'm already a very isolated person, and the degree of isolation that K, or any dissociative, gives makes everything bleak. Maybe I wasn't using the correct doses that have been used in studies.

I've done DXM 4-5 times. While I liked doing LARGE amounts of K, I went all the way to the 4th plateau and it was just chaos. I preferred a smaller dose around the 2nd plateau. It would give me an afterflow the next day that made me feeling absolutely amazing though, so maybe I have experienced the anti-depressant effects of an NMDA antagonist. I stopped doing that years ago too, for that isolation reason above, not to mention it's a fairly "dirty" drug, targeting all kinds of receptors, and the restless stimulation during the comeup was harder for me to handle than the inevitable puking.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

polythene said:


> I'm one of those people who can take bagfuls of OTC medications and feel no better or worse for it. I'm not sure if someone suggested Nyquil above - I've tried this before and it did nothing but make my mouth taste like syrup, didn't even make me slightly drowsy. The only thing I've encountered that's helped somewhat with anxiety was taking OTC sleeping pills - not even sure what the active ingredient was, but they're basically available at any drugstore, Walmart or Target.This is I'd have to take about ten times the normal dose to feel the effects: anxiety would diminish, but partly because I felt so zoned out that I didn't have the capacity to be anxious anymore.


There's two main kinds of OTC sleep aids. The natural/herbal stuff (ie melatonin, valerian, etc), which is only weakly effective, and sedating antihistamines (generally Benadryl or doxylamine succinate.)

The antihistamines are usually much more effective at sedation. However, that's exactly what is in Nyquil, and I suspect what was also in the OTC sleeping pills. The difference is probably the fact that you took a lot more. They don't work very well for me as they make me really uncomfortable, whereas prescription sleep aids are, believe it or not, more gentle.

If you are indeed taking an antihistamine, be careful with your high usage. At high doses these drugs are deliriants and can cause hallucinations for up to more than a day. Not the fun kind of LSD hallucinations either, but ones you're unaware of, where you can see and have a conversation with someone who's not actually there. Hallucinations of this nature can obviously be very dangerous, so just be careful.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

meyaj said:


> There's two main kinds of OTC sleep aids. The natural/herbal stuff (ie melatonin, valerian, etc), which is only weakly effective, and sedating antihistamines (generally Benadryl or doxylamine succinate.)
> 
> The antihistamines are usually much more effective at sedation. However, that's exactly what is in Nyquil, and I suspect what was also in the OTC sleeping pills. The difference is probably the fact that you took a lot more. They don't work very well for me as they make me really uncomfortable, whereas prescription sleep aids are, believe it or not, more gentle.
> 
> If you are indeed taking an antihistamine, be careful with your high usage. At high doses these drugs are deliriants and can cause hallucinations for up to more than a day. Not the fun kind of LSD hallucinations either, but ones you're unaware of, where you can see and have a conversation with someone who's not actually there. Hallucinations of this nature can obviously be very dangerous, so just be careful.


IMO It's unfortunate that Benadryl and doxylamine succinate have anticholinergic activity, otherwise they'd be fairly decent sleep meds. I just personally can't stand anticholinergics.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> IMO It's unfortunate that Benadryl and doxylamine succinate have anticholinergic activity, otherwise they'd be fairly decent sleep meds. I just personally can't stand anticholinergics.


I think a lot of what people attribute to anticholinergics is really an antihistamine effect. Maybe it's just my own personal bias as I had made that mistake in the past, but since then I think I have tried enough drugs to get some sense of the differences.

The anticholinergic effects of the nortriptyline I'm on, for instance, give me dry mouth, difficulty urinating (I feel like an old man!) and constipation. It does have an overall "feeling" to it but nothing, in my opinion, compared to drugs that have antihistamine effects on the CNS.

That being said, I agree with you. Which is one of the reasons I make sure my doctor keeps me supplied with hydroxyzine instead, which is also a first-gen antihistamine capable of crossing the BBB, but with a much smaller anticholinergic profile than the others. Interestingly enough, it's approved as an anxiolytic (although I don't find much effectiveness from it).

I do have actual seasonal allergies, with the symptoms being limited to intense full-body itching. Benadryl never did anything for me so I got myself a prescription after finding a study demonstrating that it took 75 times as much histamine to generate itching with hydroxyzine over Benadryl! That's huge. And it helps unbelievably well.

I also deal with kidney stones and other pain sometimes, and hydroxyzine is great for potentiating narcotic painkillers.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I love hydroxyzine  If you're looking for a sedating antihistamine with the fewest anticholinergic effects, it's definitely the one to get, 50-100mg would be good, it's about as sedating as benadryl on a milligram by milligram basis, in my opinion. I'm not sure why it requires a prescription when Benadryl does not, but it's usually not hard to get a prescription for an antihistamine anyways 

The only reason I don't use it regularly as a sleep med is the morning grogginess that seems to go hand in hand with all antihistamines when used as sleep aids.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

WHOA WHOA WHOA. Melatonin is not weak. It will knock you out like a Frank Mir left jab right to the kisser.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

db0255 said:


> WHOA WHOA WHOA. *Placebo* is not weak. It will knock you out like a Frank Mir left jab right to the kisser.


Fixed it for you 

Seriously though, melatonin has never helped me sleep even a bit. In combination with valerian though, I had some really bizarre nights with vivid dreams and even awareness of the rain hitting my window while sleeping. I drifted in and out of these states a lot, sort of half awake and half sleeping (not to be confused with lucid dreaming) and while it was an interesting experience, it simply wasn't restful.

On a tangent, I actually had my first lucid dream a few weeks ago (I literally pinched myself into awareness lol), but I found it impossible to control. It was kind of a nightmare too... I don't know why but it featured Glenn Beck :sus

Back on topic, it may be good for people with mild difficulty sleeping, but in terms of potency it can't even be compared with antihistamine or prescription sleep aids, it's just soooo much weaker.

I think the new melatonin agonists in development show some promise though.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

meyaj said:


> The anticholinergic effects of the nortriptyline I'm on, for instance, give me dry mouth, difficulty urinating (I feel like an old man!) and constipation. It does have an overall "feeling" to it but nothing, in my opinion, compared to drugs that have antihistamine effects on the CNS..


See, those side effects would drive me absolutly insane personally!



meyaj said:


> Sorry to be so long winded, but I love hydroxyzine  If you're looking for a sedating antihistamine with the fewest anticholinergic effects, it's definitely the one to get, 50-100mg would be good, it's about as sedating as benadryl on a milligram by milligram basis, in my opinion. I'm not sure why it requires a prescription when Benadryl does not, but it's usually not hard to get a prescription for an antihistamine anyways


Interestingly Mirtazapine and it's older cousin Mianserin are both very potent antihistamines, yet both lack any significant anticholinergic activity.
Althought the appetite increase may make those options unappealing to some who need to take them on a daily basis, can I ask though, do hydroxyzine, benadryl etc also cause an increase in appetite? It seems rarely reported on.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Potency? It's a hormone. It's your body's natural way of regulating sleep. Saying it doesn't work, is like saying glucose doesn't give you energy.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Potency? It's a hormone. It's your body's natural way of regulating sleep. Saying it doesn't work, is like saying glucose doesn't give you energy.


Perhaps that was a poor way of putting it. But it's not as simple as eating the hormone and getting the exact same effects. For one, it's very poorly absorbed, although there are many other reasons it can't be considered to be the same.

5-htp is often taken as a way to supplement serotonin. We don't just take serotonin directly because your body pretty much destroys it. But even 5-htp is horribly absorbed and isn't the miracle anti-depressant it should be if things worked as perfectly as you like to think.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> Interestingly Mirtazapine and it's older cousin Mianserin are both very potent antihistamines, yet both lack any significant anticholinergic activity.
> Althought the appetite increase may make those options unappealing to some who need to take them on a daily basis, can I ask though, do hydroxyzine, benadryl etc also cause an increase in appetite? It seems rarely reported on.


I don't think there's an significant effect on hunger from antihistamine effects. Mirtazapine mainly does it through 5-HT2C antagonism.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

meyaj said:


> I don't think there's an significant effect on hunger from antihistamine effects. Mirtazapine mainly does it through 5-HT2C antagonism.


According to my text book, it's a combination of potent H1, and 5-HT2C antagonism that is responsible for the appetite increase.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> According to my text book, it's a combination of potent H1, and 5-HT2C antagonism that is responsible for the appetite increase.


Interesting. Never read that before, and can't say I've noticed it with other antihistaminergic drugs, whereas all the drugs that have significant 5ht2c antagonism (in my experience, mirtazapine, and the antipsychotics olanzapine and quetiapine), have had an effect that's impossible NOT to notice.

Imagine finishing a big Thanksgiving turkey dinner and still feeling famished... that's what it's like in my experience with 5ht2c antagonists... it's really extreme. I'm already a bit overweight and have a lot of issues with the fact, and so I'm acutely aware when I'm eating more than I should. I'm on hydroxyzine for nearly half the year (spring and fall), and, for me anyways, it doesn't produce any increased hunger. If H1 antagonism does have appetite-increasing effects, I'd have a very hard time believing it is anywhere near the same extent as with 5-HT2C antagonism.

However, since antihistamines are also anti-emetics, I think it's reasonable to expect that in certain specific cases, there will be a positive effect on appetite.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

meyaj said:


> Interesting. Never read that before, and can't say I've noticed it with other antihistaminergic drugs, whereas all the drugs that have significant 5ht2c antagonism (in my experience, mirtazapine, and the antipsychotics olanzapine and quetiapine), have had an effect that's impossible NOT to notice.
> 
> Imagine finishing a big Thanksgiving turkey dinner and still feeling famished... that's what it's like in my experience with 5ht2c antagonists... it's really extreme. I'm already a bit overweight and have a lot of issues with the fact, and so I'm acutely aware when I'm eating more than I should. I'm on hydroxyzine for nearly half the year (spring and fall), and, for me anyways, it doesn't produce any increased hunger. If H1 antagonism does have appetite-increasing effects, I'd have a very hard time believing it is anywhere near the same extent as with 5-HT2C antagonism.
> 
> However, since antihistamines are also anti-emetics, I think it's reasonable to expect that in certain specific cases, there will be a positive effect on appetite.


Note that mirtazapine, olanzapine and quetiapine are all both H1 and 5-HT2C antagonists (aswell as amitriptyline which is also known for weight gain).
Whereas 5HT2C antagonists with no H1 action such as fluoxetine and agomelatine have not been shown to cause a significant change in weight. So it may very well be that H1 + 5-HT2C antagonism is necessary.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> Note that mirtazapine, olanzapine and quetiapine are all both H1 and 5-HT2C antagonists (aswell as amitriptyline which is also known for weight gain).
> Whereas 5HT2C antagonists with no H1 action such as fluoxetine and agomelatine have not been shown to cause a significant change in weight. So it may very well be that H1 + 5-HT2C antagonism is necessary.


I gained a little weight on Prozac and I'm surprised people say it doesn't cause weight gain. Still not as much as Remeron.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

db0255 said:


> WHOA WHOA WHOA. Melatonin is not weak. It will knock you out like a Frank Mir left jab right to the kisser.


Melatonin in my experience is useless. My psychiatrist suggested it. I've tried it plenty of times with no effect regardless of dose.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> L-DOPA is in Mucuna Pruriens which you might be able to get OTC and N2O is in whippets of course! I've gotten N2O OTC in the form of whippets before. And DXM yeah, Olney's lesions, not to mention all the user reports of severe retardation after taking it.


ive found many places to buy pure L-dopa. but i see no benefit, or hardly one at all, without the use of an MAO-B inhibitor and a dopa decarboxylase inhibitor at the same time. for me , L-dopa causes noticable dopaminergic effects....it actually was helpful to me a couple times in reducing social anxiety. But i think L-dopa could be neurotoxic when used without an MAO-B inhibitor.... other effects include a moderate feeling of "trippyness" and somewhat increased general anxiety.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

UltraShy said:


> Melatonin in my experience is useless. My psychiatrist suggested it. I've tried it plenty of times with no effect regardless of dose.


nobody is regulating OTC supplements-- so you might have been taking absolutely nothing. It seems this phenomenon could be a regular occurence in Herbal Supplement users.... it is a very good idea to try at least 2 different brands before making a final opinion.... i mean hopefully at least one will actually have the active ingredient. Melatonin always has been super effective and really strong...puts me out even if im on caffeine and psychotic from adderrall...


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

rocknroll714 said:


> I'm not so sure about that. Both agomelatine and fluoxetine are relatively weak 5-HT2C receptor antagonists. Fluoxetine's action is practically negligible.


I wouldn't consider fluoxetines affinity as negligible, it's affinity as an antagonist at the 5HT2C receptor appears to be 55.4 nM according to this. http://www.springerlink.com/content/ym565381q3042607/

If we take Preskorn's sert pump value for fluoxetine as being approx 8 nM, 
Then that gap isn't incredibly massive. It should certainly have atleast some theraputic benefit.
http://www.preskorn.com/columns/0005.html


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

i dunno if anybody is still reading this forum but i thought i might post my experiences with some of these herbs....ive taken lots of them, but not all of them. i hope i can try all of them in the future... and not everyone will have the same response as i did with each different supplement, but i hope this can be of help to somebody&#8230;.of great importance is the specific brand, as various brands will vary greatly in their active ingredient content/therapeutic effect. If anyone is interested I could post the brands but I dunno if im gonna right now&#8230;maybe I shoud post this in the Herbal/OTC forum section&#8230;

*Very Good/Effective/Very Helpful::--*
Alcohol (Duh), Caffeine, D/DL-Phenylalanine, Kava Kava, Nicotine, Phenylethylamine, Rhodiolia Rosea, Theanine, Phenylethylamine+Hordenine+Caffeine+Cayenne Pepper capsules (Basic Cuts), Valerian, DXM-(not safe).

*Good/Somewhat helpful:--*
B-vitamins, Magnesium, SAM-e, Taurine, Kratom (sub-therapeutic doses), L-tyrosine, L-dopa, SAM-e, Complete Multivitamins, Dipenhydramine (Benadryl)

*No effect/Not worth it/Did nothing for me:---*
Fish Oil, Inositol, 5-htp, L-phenylalanine, Loperamide (might not be safe), Omega-3 fatty acids, Phenylephrine, St. John's Wort, Vitamin C, Zinc, Damiana, Mhyrr Gum, Frankincense, L-Methionine, Iron.

Theres lots more stuff ive tried/taken and hopefully will be able to add to this post, but I can't remember right now&#8230;


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## sueno (Apr 8, 2010)

*Dormidina 25mg non addictive*

Doxylamine Succinate 25mg tablets ie dormidina are good get them on ebay:yes


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

sueno said:


> Doxylamine Succinate 25mg tablets ie dormidina are good get them on ebay:yes


yes doxylamine is good, its found in pain killers, well the one i take which is pharmacist only but you can buy it without prescription and it contains codeine and the doxylamine

standard antihistamines that cause drowsiness are effective too although the side effect which hit me was the nightmares and vivid dreams


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Doxylamine Succinate is available on it's own (without codeine) as an OTC sedative in australia atleast. Alot of people who can't get access prescription hypnotics seem to use it here.


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## titan317 (Jul 3, 2013)

*Piracetam mixed with CDP Choline*

I think Piracetam mixed mixed with (CDP Choline or Alpha GPC) can relieve social anxiety and depression. I've had social anxiety for a while, and when I take Piracetam & CDP Choline together, it makes me feel positive, smart and more social.


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## CD700 (Apr 22, 2010)

titan317 said:


> I think Piracetam mixed mixed with (CDP Choline or Alpha GPC) can relieve social anxiety and depression. I've had social anxiety for a while, and when I take Piracetam & CDP Choline together, it makes me feel positive, smart and more social.


Have you tried it without the choline ?
I got anaracetam the other day and took it by itself because im still waiting for choline and it did nothing. Even a big teaspoon with omega 3 tablet and 2 eggs for choline did nothing


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