# When Your Passion Dwarfs Your Talent.....



## kesker (Mar 29, 2011)

What do you do? Do you quit before you completely embarrass yourself and become pathetic? Do you accept what is? Do your stop torturing yourself and be grateful that, at least, you have your health and a place to live which is more than a lot of people can say? Do you become bitter? Do you stop taking risks? Do you stop pushing so hard? Do you stop pushing so hard because the more you push the further way you get and no progress has been made in nearly a year? Or do you continue? What do you do?


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

I usually don't bother trying, unfortunately. I might continue learning about my passion but when it comes to trying it out or putting it into action, I'm too discouraged. :sigh

For example I'd love to learn Ojibwa and I have tons of Ojibwa language resources, including an audio CD course somewhere, but I've never gone further than learning a noun here and there on my own (and have never even listened to the CDs) because it just seems far too daunting and I don't handle failure or frustration well.

Same with drawing, I did try it, but when I didn't immediately get the great results I was hoping for, I gave up.


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## farfegnugen (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't think I follow. I would like to play in the NBA, but that isn't going to happen but I can still enjoy basketball. Try a different tact or another aspect of what you want to do if what you've done so far hasn't work.


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## roxslide (Apr 12, 2011)

It really depends on how much enjoyment or satisfaction I derive from the action itself rather than the result. If I enjoy the process then I don't worry so much about the result, though I probably will not share or show it to anyone if I can help it. I enjoy playing piano and I'm not very good at it but that's ok. I have a lot of hobbies like this that I do not for the result but for the sake of doing.

If the process is arduous and the result is mediocre then I usually give up pretty early, unless I can forsee myself getting better. For example, when I learned how to snowboard it wasn't enjoyable at first but I saw myself getting better with practice so I kept at it and have gotten to a point where I'm not still not great but the action is enjoyable enough. However when I tried my hand at writing fiction I didn't really enjoy the process and I didn't see myself getting better to a point I'd be satisfied with so I gave up pretty early.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

If I don't write every day, and take creative risks, I won't have either what's left of my health or a roof over my head. I have been relieved of the burden of deciding whether or not to follow my passion.

If you do something every day, and make an honest effort to improve, you will get better. That's inevitable. But long plateaus are quite common.

Tbh, writing is one of the few things I still derive any kind of pleasure from. The only time I ever feel happy anymore is when I'm lost in my writing and completely forget about the real world. Writing about completely crazy things is the only kind of entertainment I can justify anymore.


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

When it comes to the arts I'm a little arrogant and fully believe that developing skill is more important than talent... whatever that is. To me, the only thing holding me back is practice and patience. So to answer your question, maybe you need to foster some arrogance. I read somewhere the most famous artists are narcissists so there is some kind of correlation there.


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## kesker (Mar 29, 2011)

@tehuti88 @farfegnugen @roxslide @truant @Rains

I just responded to you individually at length and then lost my reply. :blank

I'll recompose but wanted to say that all of your responses were incredibly helpful, so thanks.


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## Paul (Sep 26, 2005)

It's great that you've got passion, and you've got to appreciate it. I think it's a much better scenario than the opposite. My talent dwarfs my passion, so I'm stuck knowing that I should be well capable of things and it's very frustrating to see that I continue to not actually try because I'm not passionate enough to bother. For some reason I'd rather watch the grass grow than make something I ought to be excited about. Passion constrained to mediocre results by lack of talent always beats non-passion's zero results.


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## kesker (Mar 29, 2011)

@tehuti88 Maybe learning more about your passions makes it more likely you'll enact them at some point? At least you're staying in touch with them which leaves open the possibilities. I do understand the reluctance to experience "failure" which successful people call...experience? I've not got past procrastinating for the reasons you described. I've never heard of Ojobwa? Sounds fascinating. Maybe you'll transcribe a greeting in it? 
@farfegnugen lol, I cannot argue with your common sense. There's really no logical justification for not engaging in something that gives joy. Not sure where I got it, but I seem to not be able enjoy something I'm not good at....well, except for video games.  But as tehuti said, there is a kind of deflation that happens even in areas where I know it's ok to "fail" but I have a hard time tolerating it. I suppose the key would be to reframe failure as something else and not make it a determinant of worth.
@roxslide your view is the view I would like to develop. I'm entirely result-oriented to the extent I push away the original enjoyment of the endeavor and everything gets strangled. All that's left is this empty desperation to be "good." Ugh. I haven't been able to shake it. And I don't exactly know why I do that. It makes no sense.

Ooooh I think snowboarding would be so fun. I hear it is a rather difficult learning curve and the snow conditions make a lot of difference but, man, I would love to do that sometime. Actually my dream is to surf. I've only tried it a few times and I live a few hours from the sea and it's so cold on the North Coast that it's tough for me to work up the nerve but maybe I will, lol. Oh, I just got a keyboard on Craigslist. I have no idea how to play it but I might like the process. 
@truant the feeling (or the lack of feeling?) of being lost in something is the thing I miss most in life right now. Immersion. Actually I've felt it a few times but mainly in the past. The exception is this study I'm doing with a music theory tutor. (Music has always been my sanity but I'm not a musician. I reached an age where I don't want to die not having pursued what I love so I put an add on craigslist for a music tutor and, as luck would have it, she is a real gem--so kind and encouraging and patient. I almost feel guilty I haven't been a model student because she deserves for me to be. Anyway, I'm writing a "piece" right now and I'm not ready at all but, as I'm straining and rewriting and swearing and suffering for the right note, I notice time gets away from me. So perhaps I can view that as a success? By the way, I've always been really curious about your writing. I know you won't show it here and I respect your reasons but I have to say I read something you wrote in your blog some time back and I remember distinctly having my breath taken away. It had to do with a tower or a castle. 
@Rains wow, that is really helpful. "The only thing holding me back is practice and patience." You know, I do have some narcissistic tendencies so maybe I have a shot at this.  I'd never considered anything resembling what you said. It makes me think about this odd feeling I carry around of not having the right to pursuing art.
@Paul I don't know Paul. I see you trying quite a bit----I mean a whole lot. Are you saying you're cut off from that part of yourself that could be impassioned? And I think to say you've had zero results is being pretty hard on yourself. One of the things I admire about you is that you HAVE done things and you HAVE gotten results.


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## The Library of Emma (Mar 3, 2016)

The only real example i can give would be my writing. i've had immense passion for it (one of the few thing's i've actually cared for) and i've grow up doing it, so my skill has improved over time, i'm sure. It may even be above average by now, but i still can't say i consider it any good. I've thrown myself at projects to the point where i have given up on them entirely, only to return because i couldn't let them go and didn't want to be a "quitter". It's a been a rather frustrating thing for me.

I'm just relaying my experiences... i have no advice here...


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## flyingMint (Aug 31, 2015)

Well there are two approaches with me. 

On one hand for things like painting (which I'm HORRID at) I don't mind if im not talented because its therapeutic. Dancing would also fit in this category. I don't think I can dance, but I like it and it makes me happy. 

On another hand, singing and writing. I like both, I'm semi okay (and to say okay is reaching) and I like to do them but I'm not going to quite or become bitter. I keep trying because I feel like I can continue to improve. I try to sing every day I try to write as much as I can (mostly lyrics lol).


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## Kilgore Trout (Aug 10, 2014)

I've never been a hard-stlye kind of person. I give up easily.
Also it has never been my lack of talent that gets in the way, because my absolute lack of patience and inability to stay motivated stop me before talent even becomes a factor.

Except for sports. I know I can never be good at any sport. I just don't have it in me.


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## Paul (Sep 26, 2005)

kesker said:


> @Paul I don't know Paul. I see you trying quite a bit----I mean a whole lot. Are you saying you're cut off from that part of yourself that could be impassioned? And I think to say you've had zero results is being pretty hard on yourself. One of the things I admire about you is that you HAVE done things and you HAVE gotten results.


I don't do passion-based things. I write fiction maybe 3 days a year, even though that used to be my passion. I code for fun basically never, even though that used to be my passion. I don't make videos or audio dramas anymore. I don't have any projects. I don't tinker. I don't draw. I don't have a creative outlet, because I'm out of passion.

Going to meetups, while difficult, does not require any passion. A robot could do it.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

kesker said:


> the feeling (or the lack of feeling?) of being lost in something is the thing I miss most in life right now. Immersion. Actually I've felt it a few times but mainly in the past. The exception is this study I'm doing with a music theory tutor. (Music has always been my sanity but I'm not a musician. I reached an age where I don't want to die not having pursued what I love so I put an add on craigslist for a music tutor and, as luck would have it, she is a real gem--so kind and encouraging and patient. I almost feel guilty I haven't been a model student because she deserves for me to be. Anyway, I'm writing a "piece" right now and I'm not ready at all but, as I'm straining and rewriting and swearing and suffering for the right note, I notice time gets away from me. So perhaps I can view that as a success? By the way, I've always been really curious about your writing. I know you won't show it here and I respect your reasons but I have to say I read something you wrote in your blog some time back and I remember distinctly having my breath taken away. It had to do with a tower or a castle.


I couldn't survive if I couldn't escape my life. There's nothing positive in my life _except_ my escape from it. My imagination is my lifeline.

That blog post is nothing like what I write professionally. I write smut for a living. >

Good luck with your music. Stick with it. The more you invest in an art, the more satisfying it becomes, ime. But it takes time to get to a point where you really start to feel in control of your medium. The better you get, the more fun you have because the more confidently you can take those creative risks.


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## konas8 (Nov 23, 2016)

I don't understand passion. Last time I thought I had it for an activity it turned out I was obsessed with the idea of being a writer, but during that time nothing could dissuade me. Unfortunately, it seems the goal meant more than the activity itself and as I moved on, I no longer wrote. Is passion something other than taking great pleasure in an activity? If it's a desire to improve, why is that desire there?


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## roxslide (Apr 12, 2011)

kesker said:


> @roxslide your view is the view I would like to develop. I'm entirely result-oriented to the extent I push away the original enjoyment of the endeavor and everything gets strangled. All that's left is this empty desperation to be "good." Ugh. I haven't been able to shake it. And I don't exactly know why I do that. It makes no sense.
> 
> Ooooh I think snowboarding would be so fun. I hear it is a rather difficult learning curve and the snow conditions make a lot of difference but, man, I would love to do that sometime. Actually my dream is to surf. I've only tried it a few times and I live a few hours from the sea and it's so cold on the North Coast that it's tough for me to work up the nerve but maybe I will, lol. Oh, I just got a keyboard on Craigslist. I have no idea how to play it but I might like the process.


No I get that. I think what I described is how I naturally operate without anxiety. However, my anxiety screws some of it up. For example there are many activities/projects I'd like to practice (coding, I desperately need to practice coding) but don't because I'm afraid of mediocrity of the result. Even when I do pursue things on my own, I am very embarrassed by the mediocrity that I never show it to anyone if I can help it. So yeah I get it. I totally understand the feeling of being so viscerally invested in the result that you are forced into complacency from fear of failure.

Snowboarding is great! It kicks your *** at first but is really very fun if you can get through the bruised butt lol. I get a lot of satisfaction from doing a lot of outdoorsy stuff. I've always wanted to try surfing but I'd have to travel a bit and I've heard it's quite a bit harder than snowboarding I think? Also piano is great, I started when I was a kid so I don't have much tips on starting out though. I think it's a great instrument to start out on though (unless you already play another instrument) because there is kind of an instant return in the sense that isn't too many variables to learn on how to properly play notes or anything (like flute where you have to learn to hold it, how to breathe, etc). Anyway good luck!


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## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

When I get overwhelmed by the things I'm passionate about, I take a step back and recollect. Passions, in terms of a hobby at least are at their root intended to be an enjoyable experience. When something like a hobby is frustrating to the point that it's no longer an enjoyable experience it might be time to take a break; be it a week or several months to several years.


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

Sheska said:


> In the case of arts, I do feel there is a lot to be said on the subject of talent. There was an article published recently on "_relations between personality and visual perceptual processing_" that appears to suggest that there is a correlation between how we register and screen different external stimuli and our "_openness_", i.e. how "_curious, creative and motivated to explore the world and engage with possibilities_" we are. Looking at it from this perspective, perhaps, what we refer to as talent is just a higher degree of such openness to the world. And who knows to what extent this openness is genetically circumscribed within us, what potential there is to develop it further and so on&#8230; In which case how can we impose a value of importance on the degree to which we may be pre-programmed to view the world?
> 
> Having said that, there may be a lot of benefit in developing particular skills, testing our abilities and perhaps even stretching the boundaries of how we perceive the world, the universe, and everything in it. How much benefit and what proportion of that benefit could be productively utilised would depend on an individual but that to me is what is great about it, it brings about diversity in us as individuals and, in this case, art.


I was dismissive of talent in my post, but that's not to say I don't believe it counts. I do think though, for pragmatic reasons, if you play down the importance of talent and emphasise the importance of skill, you'll get further than doing the reverse. If you believe that you're limited by some inherent inadequacy (lack of talent) then you're less likely to tap into the talent that you do have. Most people have to push and challenge themselves to fully realise it; It's easy to see how if someone thinks they lack it, they will give up too soon or shy away from taking risks.

I also think if you are drawn to the arts in any capacity, that's already evidence that you have some lurking aptitude / talent for it, by virtue of just 'getting it'. For example, I've noticed that those who don't appreciate visual arts at all, tend to have a poor sense of visual aesthetics in general (no offense to them, just an observation). Those who do have a sense of aesthetics; it seems to be spread out across quite a few areas. I.e. visually artistic people seem to take interest not just in their mode of art, say painting, but also are drawn to and appreciate others; interiors, architecture, fashion, sculptures, photography... all things visual, or an eclectic combination of things. A lot of art critics end up dabbling in art, a lot of artists end up critiquing art, they're not that different. So, in a broad sense, it takes aptitude, or if you like, some degree of talent, just to develop complex aesthetic tastes in the first place. This could probably relate to that article you linked (I saw that recently too, and it sounds plausible to me).

Also, I think a lot of people have difficulty identifying talent in themselves and others, because it's confounded by taste and popularity (which can be arbitrary; connections, marketing, or based on scarcity of a type of art, or only really granted when the artist is dead). I've also noticed there's a bias to identifying some kinds of art that are easy to process / easy to warm to (like realistic, hyper-realistic art) as requiring more talent than other forms that are more of an acquired taste (say action paintings), which I think is bull****. Talent can be in 'cruder' styles, because fundamentally, it's about creating atmosphere, character, themes, patterns, forms, aesthetics, style, all in a way that's distinctive to you.

Tbh I think talent, in varying degrees is pretty common. But I think people sometimes have to scrabble around and push themselves a bit to find their niche. And being held back by a lack of confidence is a waste of time. You've nothing to lose creatively, and will make bigger gains, by assuming practise is the main thing inhibiting you. I think if people were diligent about taking this approach, they'd surprise themselves by what they can do.

I mean this guy went from this:










To this:










Gotta start somewhere right?


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

konas8 said:


> I don't understand passion. Last time I thought I had it for an activity it turned out I was obsessed with the idea of being a writer, but during that time nothing could dissuade me. Unfortunately, it seems the goal meant more than the activity itself and as I moved on, I no longer wrote. Is passion something other than taking great pleasure in an activity? If it's a desire to improve, why is that desire there?


Just curious, but do you relate to this?:






Otherwise how long have you been out of writing? Sometimes people abandon interests for years, or decades, before rediscovering it.


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## konas8 (Nov 23, 2016)

Rains said:


> Just curious, but do you relate to this?:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Partially, though in general it's been a loss of motivation related to depression for me, rather than a fizzling out. 
In relation to my writing ambitions, what I wrote in my previous post doesn't hold. iirc, what went on three years ago was a pursuit of affirmation from worthy individuals for having a talent for writing. I experienced it as a purpose with my true motivation being hidden, and letting go meant dropping deep into the dark hole. So it's a completely different issue.


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## Strago (Jan 12, 2017)

Passion is a far more valuable quality to have than talent. Someone with talent but no passion rarely brings out their true potential because they don't get enjoyment from doing the activity just for its own sake. If you are truly passionate about something, keep at it. Slowly you will get better. However, if you don't get enjoyment from the activity of doing whatever your interest is, I would question if you are really as passionate about it as you think.

As someone who has very little passion for anything, I'm envious of those who have a burning passion that keeps them motivated.


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## naes (Nov 1, 2013)

lol i read this thread as "when you passion dwarfs" and was expecting either something about dwarf stars or lord of the rings or something xDDDD


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

I would say educate yourself on your passion. Take classes, learn from people who do it well. That's how all classical artists or virtuosos typically have done it. They learn from the ages of 3-16 and go on from there. However, that's musical talent and practice, practice, practice... with an instrument. I suppose the same goes for dancing or singing or writing. It's not a shame to admit you can improve your craft, in fact, it's a humbling admittance.

Did you know that Van Gogh decided to draw properly from a book before he decided to jumpstart his career as an artist? Now that is dedication. All artists sort of study the art of how to create their art. How crazy is that? Anyway, it takes work, but definitely channel that passion into learning as much as you can about proper technique so that you can boldly go to where you want to go. There's always room for improvement and learning new things,whatever craft it is.

It's pretty darn frustrating sure, but you give up, then start again, then find you've improved, then give up. It's a process. I'm wanting to learn more Spanish and Arabic but have realized that my foundation of know any of these things was from taking a class. So I'm going to take more classes.

Edit, Mr Van Gogh before:


















somewhat disproportionate

After:

















Perfection


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## kesker (Mar 29, 2011)

@Sheska and @Rains

Fascinating perspectives. Thanks. I'll have to reread your posts a few more times.


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## kesker (Mar 29, 2011)

coeur_brise said:


> I would say educate yourself on your passion. Take classes, learn from people who do it well. That's how all classical artists or virtuosos typically have done it. They learn from the ages of 3-16 and go on from there. However, that's musical talent and practice, practice, practice... with an instrument. I suppose the same goes for dancing or singing or writing. It's not a shame to admit you can improve your craft, in fact, it's a humbling admittance.
> 
> Did you know that Van Gogh decided to draw properly from a book before he decided to jumpstart his career as an artist? Now that is dedication. All artists sort of study the art of how to create their art. How crazy is that? Anyway, it takes work, but definitely channel that passion into learning as much as you can about proper technique so that you can boldly go to where you want to go. There's always room for improvement and learning new things,whatever craft it is.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I want to do. Achieve a consistent and productive level of practice and learning. I've attempted it many times but focus and concentration remain alien traits to me. I'm studying with a tutor (one hour a week--music theory) but still haven't cracked the homework code. Gotta find some path to consistency.


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