# Do you believe in free will?



## lde22 (Oct 19, 2009)

I took a philosophy class recently and one of the debates in it was whether or not our conscious mind is something separate from our brains and controls our brain or if it is just a byproduct of our electrical brain activity. I was also listening to a TTC audio series that I have titled "Your Deceptive Mind" and in it he was saying how our brains aren't controlled by one central entity but how we have many different parts of our brain telling us to do different things and different parts of our brains determine our actions at different times. He also mentioned how some scientists believe that there is no free will and that our actions are determined by completely physical random probabilities because our brain is made up of completely physical components. He was also saying how in experiments scientists were watching the brain while someone was making a decision and they could actually determine which decision the person was going to make even before the person was aware that they had made a decision. The scientists could see the decision the person had made subconsciously before the decision had reached the persons consciousness.

So I was just thinking, if I am agnostic or mostly atheist, and I don't believe in God, that means I can't really believe in free will. If no supernatural being or entity or anything supernatural or metaphysical exists, then our actions and thoughts are only determined by the physical laws of the universe. Free will insinuates some type of metaphysical or supernatural power. So basically our brains are just a piece of meat with electrical impulses running through it, and how which path those electrical impulses take through our neurons determine what thoughts we have and what actions we take. But what we consider our conscious selves don't have any control over those impulses because it is actually those impulses that create our conscious identity. And those impulses are controlled by the physical laws of the universe. And how our brains and neuron pathways developed are determined by our genes, environment and experiences in life, which is all just random chance. So how the electrical impulses flow through our brain is all determined by the randomness of the universe. So how we think, feel, and act is all determined by random chance. We think we are making decisions but really those decisions were just random electrical impulses in our brains.

I don't know if any of that made any real sense to anyone, but if it did, do you think we really have free will? Or is our consciousness the complete byproduct of a random universe and we only have the illusion of free will? And if you don't believe in God or any supernatural or metaphysical power, then how is free will even possible?


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

If the universe has predetermined everything for us following what the OP said, does that mean the universe is "god" ? This is an actual question, not to be stoopid.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

lde22 said:


> He was also saying how in experiments scientists were watching the brain while someone was making a decision and they could actually determine which decision the person was going to make even before the person was aware that they had made a decision. The scientists could see the decision the person had made subconsciously before the decision had reached the persons consciousness.


This is one of the reasons to why I can't believe in free will by a traditional definition.

On the subject:






tl;dr 0:14:00 - 0:14:23


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

^ Really interesting! Thanks for posting.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Sure you can predict what choice someone is going to make, it's not that hard. Careful observation of any person will yield results where you can predict their next move. I don't believe it completely strikes out freewill, it's just the person in question has chosen to make a decision based on their intelligence, their morality, and their personality.


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## nonethemore (Oct 18, 2010)

I think most people don't exercise a great deal of "free will". Unless you've really observed your past conditioning and somehow managed to release yourself from the narrow perspectives and viewpoints that have been past down from your past, it's hard to confidently assert the notion of "free will" for yourself. For the most part, most individuals just regurgitate values that have been past down to them, without really engaging in a question of whether or not something is actually "true". 

I don't think free will is dependent on religion, or a belief in God, it's dependent on finding the truth for yourself without being filtered through circumstances you haven't chosen. It's hard to get to that point, speaking from experience, lol.


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## Jarebear (Mar 12, 2013)

probably offline said:


> This is one of the reasons to why I can't believe in free will by a traditional definition.
> 
> On the subject:
> 
> ...


sam harris is the man....js


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## Pumpkin Head (Feb 26, 2013)

I am so turned on by your brain right now.


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## Ramondo (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't follow the argument that if a god existed, we'd have free will.
Anyhow, I don't have the answer. Perhaps it's something like quantum physics, which only applies at very big and very small scales, but not at human scale. 
Yes, when you look at things from a physiological point of view, everything is determined. But we don't experience it that way in our consciousness. Therefore, we have free will.
In any case, I think we have to live as if we have free will even if we don't. I don't think society would work without the concept.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

It may not, in fact we all might just be an illusion fooling itself. With that said, I live life like it exists.


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## Bloodyneptune (Mar 16, 2013)

If the Winchester have taught me anything, its that everyone has a choice.


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## Moment of Clarity (Nov 3, 2011)

probably offline said:


> This is one of the reasons to why I can't believe in free will by a traditional definition.





diamondheart89 said:


> ^ Really interesting! Thanks for posting.


This!

Given that I haven't seen any presentations by Sam Harris that I did not think were very well reasoned and informed, this video will likely be great as well.


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## 123destiny (Feb 28, 2013)

"If you want to know your past – look into your present conditions. If you want to know your future – look into your present actions."

In those examples, they are simply looking at present conditions. Present conditions can be changed by choice. To me, free will is choice. That's all. 

"The best way to predict the future is to create it."

Jon


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

I think there is more to free will than this. Take for example, people that run marathons - there is absolutely no logical reason to do it, yet despite how much pain they go through, they force themselves to keep going. It is a demonstration of willpower.

I don't think of free will as the mere level of knowledge one contains, and the ability to make choices based on that limited knowledge. It comes down to your "will" itself. I've seen people hold off death, until they can say their goodbyes to their loved ones. Imagine the will to hold off, despite such pain, just to tell someone you love them. Minutes after, they let go and pass away.

Perhaps it should be called willpower instead of free will.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

I don't believe free will exists. We all act according to our human nature and our environment. Much like the laws of motion. We all have a set path that we don't really chose. Look at religion for example, most people believe in the religion that is main streamed by their society. That's probably not a faith they would have picked up elsewhere. Nature also acts of a limitation to free will. We can't freely chose to fly because humans were born without wings. Free will is just an illusion made in our conscious human brain.


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## Cylon (Mar 15, 2013)

Nope I believe mind is a system. If anything I learned that everything is subjective, I've studied alot of philosphy in high school. People are ruled by thought, you can only make a choice once you're outside/free of something. That's just my opinion though, it's as precious as your opinion and vice versa.


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## huh (Mar 19, 2007)

probably offline said:


> This is one of the reasons to why I can't believe in free will by a traditional definition.
> 
> On the subject:
> 
> ...


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## Stickman13 (Mar 26, 2013)

Free will is as much of an illusion as god. Perhaps a drawing will explain Stickman's experience better.


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## markwalters2 (Mar 18, 2013)

Nothing is free in this world ...


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## Chaos Fighter (Aug 3, 2011)

I don't believe in free will. I also don't cancel the idea of it existing out. It's just that I've thought long and hard and looked long and hard only to find no firm basis to believe in it.

Someone above mentioned how marathon runners show a proof of will power because they push through pain. But what if the experience of them pushing through pain is something that is an illusion. Or what if them pushing through the pain REAL but something they would have done no matter what -it was predetermined for their will to go in such a direction, since the start of the universe and the beginning of its mechanical gears and clockwork precision.

The closest thing to free will I can see existing is just random chance. But that wouldn't be free will it'd just be randomness imbued into our existence. Nothing noble about that.

I do believe that the choices we make, however, are OUR choices. It's just that my definition of what WE are is different from when a "free will"-ist says we are responsible for our choices. I think WE are humans that have a consciousness (we are capable of perceiving experiences) and do what our most overwhelming, overriding desire is at any instant. So when I'M responsible for my choice it doesn't many I actually HAD a choice (it was predetermined for me to do it) but it means that it WAS a choice I WANTED to do.

/ramble


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## Automaton (Mar 16, 2013)

I'd like to think that I have free will but I think our thought are probably just a series of neural networks firing competitively for our conscious attention, and what we think we are thinking is the network that won out over the other ones.


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## Chaos Fighter (Aug 3, 2011)

Automaton said:


> I'd like to think that I have free will but I think our thought are probably just a series of neural networks firing competitively for our conscious attention, and what we think we are thinking is the network that won out over the other ones.


I agree. And so we can't choose what we think. Even if I was to stop now, sit down and decide to think about what I should think about, what I will eventually settle on is already decided since the beginning time (if no randomness truly exists in the universe). What's more, my decision to consciously select what to think about was, itself, a thought predetermined.

Also, I think this clip talks about free will much better than I am:


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## handsupmidnight (Mar 4, 2013)

When I go buy a Dr. Pepper, did I really choose to feed the machine my two dollars?

I mean, no one made me buy Dr. Pepper over Cherry Coke at gunpoint.

But still, was I free to want anything else?

Am I a product of my circumstances?

?
















































!


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## Joe21043 (Mar 27, 2013)

I have no choice but to believe in free will.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

If it is your brain that is making the decisions, and you are your brain.. then how could it not be free will? Perhaps you may not be aware of the steps leading up to the decision, but ultimately, it is *you* that has made such a decision. You aka the brain, made the decision, before you were even consciously aware of making it.

The part of the brain, your awareness, may have no control over said choices, but ultimately there are choices made. These choices that are made, are done by you with our without you being aware of making those choices. 

Unless, of course there is no *you* to begin with. Or perhaps, one assumes the brain is not the representative of themselves, but rather there is a soul of sorts separate from the brain, perhaps held prisoner by it.


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## huh (Mar 19, 2007)

zonebox said:


> If it is your brain that is making the decisions, and you are your brain.. then how could it not be free will? Perhaps you may not be aware of the steps leading up to the decision, but ultimately, it is *you* that has made such a decision. You aka the brain, made the decision, before you were even consciously aware of making it.
> 
> The part of the brain, your awareness, may have no control over said choices, but ultimately there are choices made. These choices that are made, are done by you with our without you being aware of making those choices.
> 
> Unless, of course there is no *you* to begin with. Or perhaps, one assumes the brain is not the representative of themselves, but rather there is a soul of sorts separate from the brain, perhaps held prisoner by it.


Our conscious self has no access to the underlying mechanisms responsible for the decision, so to say they were choices made by us seems rather unusual. I'd hardly call that free will. I think your definition of "you" is far too loose.

Suppose someone has a tumour pressing against the frontal lobe of their brain, causing irrational and aggressive behaviour. Is it really correct to say the decisions made under the circumstances of such a person was still an exercise of some sort of free will?


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

A piece of a post I made on a very similar topic in the science subforum (link to that thread bellow as well).



lonelyjew said:


> And on the subject of free will, there is a very interesting study done a few years ago which demonstrated that decisions could be imaged in the brain a significant amount of time (7 seconds) before the conscious awareness of that decision was perceived by the subject. This means that the researchers were able to, using an fMRI, know whether a person was going to choose to press a left or right button well before that person knew which button they were going to press. Here's a video discussing it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...-merely-neurophysiological-297881/index2.html


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

huh said:


> Our conscious self has no access to the underlying mechanisms responsible for the decision, so to say they were choices made by us seems rather unusual. I'd hardly call that free will. I think your definition of "you" is far too loose.
> 
> Suppose someone has a tumour pressing against the frontal lobe of their brain, causing irrational and aggressive behaviour. Is it really correct to say the decisions made under the circumstances of such a person was still an exercise of some sort of free will?


Of course, the brain still holds the capacity to make choices within the confines of it's limits. It may not have as broad of a range as we do, to still make such decisions, but it still performs various decisions.

We can no more will ourselves to fly by flapping our arms, than this aggressive individual can maintain control over his rage. Yet, we still make choices within those limitations. In the event that this aggressive individual starts killing others, do we push the fault on him, the tumor, I place the blame on a faulty brain that can not function at a level suitable for society, which means I place the blame on them. They would be the one, I would want outside of society to keep us safe.

The problem with determinism, is it pushes victim mentality. It gives people with low self esteem an excuse to pretend they are bound by laws outside of their control, often they pretend these laws are far more strict than they are. They more or less give up on everything, because they lose the very will to to even try to change themselves. When in reality, we see people are able to push past limitations they once held for themselves.

Decisions are made by you, regardless if you are aware of such decisions being made or not. You can will yourself outside of your perceived limitations. To say otherwise, sounds as if you believe you are a prisoner, helpless to do anything.

It really comes down to this though, are you your brain? Or do you believe you are something else, imprisoned by a meat computer?


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## Ramondo (Feb 16, 2011)

zonebox said:


> The problem with determinism, is it pushes victim mentality.


No, that's a problem with adopting an attitude that determinism is true of people. Adopting an attitude towards something has no bearing on whether that thing is true or not.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

Ramondo said:


> No, that's a problem with adopting an attitude that determinism is true of people. Adopting an attitude towards something has no bearing on whether that thing is true or not.


True, I didn't mean to suggest that it proved determinism false though. All I am really saying, is that if we are our brain and our brain makes choices, then free will exists.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

zonebox said:


> Of course, the brain still holds the capacity to make choices within the confines of it's limits. It may not have as broad of a range as we do, to still make such decisions, but it still performs various decisions.
> 
> We can no more will ourselves to fly by flapping our arms, than this aggressive individual can maintain control over his rage. Yet, we still make choices within those limitations. In the event that this aggressive individual starts killing others, do we push the fault on him, the tumor, I place the blame on a faulty brain that can not function at a level suitable for society, which means I place the blame on them. They would be the one, I would want outside of society to keep us safe.
> 
> ...


While the issue of free will is still highly contested I'm inclined to largely side with you on it.

I feel like while the brain is one organism, it has an almost symbiotic relationship between the conscious and the subconscious parts of the mind. While most the minds communication travels from the subconscious to the conscious, I don't believe it's all one way, and the conscious can feedback decisions to the subconscious.

It's like components in a computer, where different jobs are best processed by different components. There are decisions our subconscious is constantly making which allow us to operate, but there are also decisions which I think get pushed to the conscious for certain types of analysis before feeding back. It's those decisions we are aware of and can make choices on. (Even though the choices are heavily influenced by all manner of factors we may not be conscious of)

The question of free will could therefore be both yes and no in different respects.


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## monkeyoffmyback (Mar 18, 2013)

*separate parts*

what if there are two separate parts. The "machine" , our brain that fires and displays the choices to the other part , our free will, "us" ,that is able to use what is in us to make the final edit? What if they are both in there


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

monkeyoffmyback said:


> what if there are two separate parts. The "machine" , our brain that fires and displays the choices to the other part , our free will, "us" ,that is able to use what is in us to make the final edit? What if they are both in there


Well they are both in there. They aren't separate in that they can exist on their own, just as computer components are useless on their own. Both are crucial elements in a highly integrated system.

We are well aware that the brain comprises of different physical regions (components) such as the temporal lobe, hypothalamus, amygdala etc, which are observably interconnected to varying degrees, so I don't see it as a big leap to view the conscious and subconscious parts being just as interconnected.

If the brain organ with it's physical components is the hardware, then the mind with it's conscious and subconscious elements form part of the software that runs on it.

I see the whole system as myself. For example just because I don't consciously direct and control much of my body doesn't mean I don't think it's part of "me". There is far more going on physically and mentally in our bodies that we aren't conscious of than there is which we are conscious of. Our conscious is only capable of processing a few things in parallel where as our subconscious does a lot more a lot quicker.

We do appear to be mainly automatous.


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## Raphael200 (Aug 18, 2012)

I do indeed : ).


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## DubnRun (Oct 29, 2011)

i dont because i live in 24/7 isolation


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## realitysucks (Jan 18, 2013)

You can't choose the nature of you birth. (Who, where, when, etc).
Take for instance being born in crappy Somalia or being born as some prince. It's unfair and simply random. 
Your will was never free from the start in other words.


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## Ramondo (Feb 16, 2011)

zonebox said:


> True, I didn't mean to suggest that it proved determinism false though. All I am really saying, is that if we are our brain and our brain makes choices, then free will exists.


Again, not exactly. Our brain makes choices, but free will only exists if we could have chosen otherwise. It seems to be intuitive that of course we could have chosen chocolate over strawberry. But, if we chose strawberry, how can we _*prove*_ that we really could have chosen chocolate?


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## markwalters2 (Mar 18, 2013)

Have also always wondered if someone else were to be born with the exact attributes as me, in place of me, if he would have reacted differently and have taken a different path in life. Would that guy be typing this sentence now?


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## Zyriel (May 20, 2011)

Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

markwalters2 said:


> Have also always wondered if someone else were to be born with the exact attributes as me, in place of me, if he would have reacted differently and have taken a different path in life. Would that guy be typing this sentence now?


It's hard to say, but there is chaos in the universe, so I would say that the chance of things going the same is inveresly proportional to the point at which the two of you diverged in being perfectly identical a controlled way (I mean since we're talking about hypotheticals, he and everything around him would have had to have been exactly the same until some point before you'd be testing a given moment). Once that controlled similarity is broken, and randomness comes back, you'd have lots of minor little changes creeping up, which may or may not be enough to change some arbitrary thing, which could in turn cause a larger change, and so on. I mean something like by chance, some neurons make less of some neurotransmitter, and some make more of others, and as a result now a single neuron fires differently, just by random chance, where with you it didn't, leading to a cascade of events which could potentially build up to profound changes in your lives.

Say that single neuron throws you over the threshold into making a decision you were neutral about: you choose to type out one arbitrary word instead of another in a post, but in that process you make an typo that you otherwise wouldn't, and when you hit backspace it sends the whole page back, and you lose everything you wrote. You're annoyed, so now instead of staying on the computer all day, you decide you'll go out to do something you had to get done anyways, and while you're out your car gets hit hard by another car, which wouldn't have happened if you were on yoru computer. You're taken to the ER, and in checking you for neck injuries, see something concerning on the CT scan they take of your head/neck: an aneurism in your brain! They treat it with no complications, and that you goes on to live a long healthy life afterwards (free of SA to because the scare had them reevaluate their entire life).

Now the real you, on the other hand, that you didn't make that typo, and that you wasted the whole day on the computer, and that you never had that aneurism discovered, that is until you had the worst headache of your life start, which was misdiagnosed as a migraine, and two hours later went boom, and 24 hours later, when you were declared brain dead!

It's a fun thought game to play, but really, we can't know though .


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

markwalters2 said:


> Have also always wondered if someone else were to be born with the exact attributes as me, in place of me, if he would have reacted differently and have taken a different path in life.


If someone else was born with the exact attributes as you in place of you they would be you!

No other you could exist.


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## anonymid (Oct 16, 2005)

Pragmatically speaking, yes, I do believe in free will, since I go about my life as though I have it. I can't imagine what it would be like to go about my life as though I didn't.


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