# Why are you an Atheist when...?



## CaspianDragon (Apr 17, 2014)

Why are you an Atheist when you don't know if there is a God? I'm an agnostic, because I don't know if there is a God, but I don't know there isn't one either. It's unknown if there ever was or still is a a large dinosaur creature in Loch Ness. Highly probable there wasn't, but we don't know for certain. My views may change in the near future, but to say there is definitely no god, where there isn't any god(s) which no evidence to me is just as silly as people who say "there is a God" when there isn't any proof.

It's also like saying "we haven't found any other life in the universe, so there obviously isn't any", that just baffles my mind. The concept of "I cant see it, so it must be fake" is so beyond my logic.


----------



## cooperativeCreature (Sep 6, 2010)

Would it be acceptable to you if I were to say that there is definitely no Santa Claus?


----------



## CaspianDragon (Apr 17, 2014)

cooperativeCreature said:


> Would it be acceptable to you if I were to say that there is definitely no Santa Claus?


It depends what you mean. Do you mean a guy who flies in a sleigh, or a guy who goes around peoples house giving them gifts?

Well, considering that reindeers can't fly (it's against the laws of physics and all) and that santa clause is based on a real person (Saint Nichols)

I'd say it's acceptable to say there isn't a man who delivers presents to every child on earth in one night in his sleigh with flying reindeers. No to mention he forgets about a lot of the children anyway.


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

That's the old _"What does the word Atheist mean"_ debate again.

Many hours have been spent debating that question. To some it simply means a lack of theistic belief (A-theism = without theism). To others it means a _belief_ that there is no god.

Basically it's a long and ultimately largely fruitless debate.


----------



## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

CaspianDragon said:


> Why are you an Atheist when you don't know if there is a God?


Your arbitrary lack of knowledge is irrelevant. The word _theism_ has a precise definition; it is the belief in the existence of a god or gods. If you fail to meet this definition -for any reason, or no reason- you are not a theist. The word_ atheism_, as with other words with the a- prefix, follows the same convention indicating a negation of the root word.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

CaspianDragon said:


> Why are you an Atheist when you don't know if there is a God? I'm an agnostic, because I don't know if there is a God, but I don't know there isn't one either. It's unknown if there ever was or still is a a large dinosaur creature in Loch Ness. Highly probable there wasn't, but we don't know for certain. My views may change in the near future, but to say there is definitely no god, where there isn't any god(s) which no evidence to me is just as silly as people who say "there is a God" when there isn't any proof.
> 
> It's also like saying "we haven't found any other life in the universe, so there obviously isn't any", that just baffles my mind. The concept of "I cant see it, so it must be fake" is so beyond my logic.


It's clear you don't know what the word atheist means. It addresses _belief_, not knowledge of a deity.

Very few atheists claim to also know there is no god, as while it seems to be highly unlikely, especially as per religious definitions, it's unknowable.

Most atheists are also agnostic. It sounds like you are an agnostic atheist too. Agnosticism isn't a middle ground between atheism and theism. It's just saying that you don't know there is a god, not that you don't believe or disbelieve there is one. There can be theistic agnostics as well, which are people who _believe_ in a deity but don't _know_ there is one.

Unfortunately there are shocking number of theists who actually claim to know there is a god! They are of course almost certainly delusional. You won't however find many atheists who claim to know there is no god. In fact i've never even met one, and speak to atheists every day. It's the intellectually honest and logically coherent position on the subject.

Bear in mind though that once something is deemed highly improbable, it can for practical reasons be deemed to not exist, such as the Loch Ness Monster, dragons, Santa Claus etc. Almost everything is unknowable with 100% certainty, but we often have to make judgement calls on what is and isn't real in order to function and develop a worldview.


----------



## VictimEternal (Aug 10, 2014)

It's the monster of the caspian , not the caspian dragon , sir


----------



## DaveTE311 (May 8, 2014)

*athiest reality*

Athiests or indeed agnostics are not the ones making claims of the supernatural,we just say there is no good evidence for a supernatural "mover and shaker" watching over us 24 hours a day,a creator that created us sick and commanded us to be well,swift to punish any wrong doing in the here after and remembering that this particular god(the Christian one)gifted us with original sin in the very first place,how kind.
There have been lots of gods down the years,Horus,Odin,Zeus,Thor,Apollo to name but a few,I don't believe in any of them therefore believing in one less than the majority of religious apologists.
Im a non believer as taking my morals from the bible is problematical given its endorsement of slavery,genocide,blood sacrifice and vicarious redemption.....ummmm.
Lots of the previous gods oddly also had a three day Resurrection ,virgin birth and disciples for those who want to do a bit of research.


----------



## DNightingale (Oct 12, 2014)

In a modern context I suppose we could use four different categories to describe any particular position regarding this issue:

Agnostic atheism: the subjective belief that deities do not exist without the claim of knowing that as an objective truth.

Gnostic atheism: the subjective belief that deities do not exist with the claim of knowing that as an objective truth.

Agnostic theism: the subjective belief that deities do exist without the claim of knowing that as an objective truth.

Gnostic theism: the subjective belief that deities do exist with the claim of knowing that as an objective truth.

So there are two categories overlapping here basically, personal beliefs regarding the issue and whether or not you claim that your personal belief is a certain, proven truth.


----------



## DaveTE311 (May 8, 2014)

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene *Roddenberry*
*I also Like this one by the same guy:*

"For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain. If people need religion, ignore them and maybe they will ignore you, and you can go on with your life. It wasn't until I was beginning to do Star Trek that the subject of religion arose. What brought it up was that people were saying that I would have a chaplain on board the Enterprise. I replied, "No, we don't." 
and no Im not a trekkie!
We have all these terms for religious meaning,theiest,athiest etc etc,it all boils down to(at least for me) wheres the evidence?
Its a heck of a big universe for some cloud sitter to just create this place and give you a purpose and a divine plan whilst there billions of stars out there burning out and banging into eachother,thats some design when you think and according to religious apologists of all faiths,its all designed with you in mind but to think skeletons,primate skeletons exactly like us have been found in Ethiopia and they are 195,000 years old,just remember that if there is a god he ignored us for around 193,000 of those years after inventing us and then decided to intervene in primitive Palestine by means of a public torture using his alto ego and that would show us right and wrong but we are guilty too,we were there driving the nails in as Christians et all call me a "sinner", I was responsible too and must repent and accept the message that if I don't love this demented and cruel *capricious god I will be thrown into a lake of fire,you must love someone you must also fear....sick.*
*I may suffer from social anxiety and I do but we can lead ethical lives without this suspernatural man made nonsense that is poisoning and brainwashing minds*


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

DaveTE311 said:


> Athiests or indeed agnostics are not the ones making claims of the supernatural,we just say there is no good evidence for a supernatural "mover and shaker" watching over us 24 hours a day,a creator that created us sick and commanded us to be well,swift to punish any wrong doing in the here after and remembering that this particular god(the Christian one)gifted us with original sin in the very first place,how kind.


Indeed I hope the OP is asking theists who say they know there is a god (as most do) why they are theist when they can't know if there is a god?

It would certainly be more appropriate than asking atheists who almost always don't claim to know there isn't a god.



> There have been lots of gods down the years,Horus,Odin,Zeus,Thor,Apollo to name but a few,I don't believe in any of them therefore believing in one less than the majority of religious apologists.


Indeed. Theists are atheistic about every other deity mankind has mentioned except their own.



> Lots of the previous gods oddly also had a three day Resurrection ,virgin birth and disciples for those who want to do a bit of research.


Knowledge of ancient religions, or even other religions, typically isn't theists strong suit. Due to facts like you mention, it doesn't surprise me many of them are happy to ignore them. It's partly confirmation bias, partly burying their head in the sand.


----------



## Paul (Sep 26, 2005)

Certainty is an incoherent impossibility. The word really just means highly confident. I cannot be certain there isn't an invisible pink elephant dancing on my head juggling chainsaws, because Descartes' evil demon could be tricking me into thinking there isn't. I can't even put odds on how likely it is, since the demon would be controlling everything that I figure the odds based on... so all I can say is that I have no reason to believe in it. God makes about as much logical sense and has as much evidence as that elephant, I have no reason to believe in him either. It would be dishonest to call myself an agnostic just because I'm not certain, because it implies a distinction between that uncertainty and some possibility of certainty elsewhere that doesn't exist.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

DaveTE311 said:


> "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene *Roddenberry*
> *I also Like this one by the same guy:*
> 
> "For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain. If people need religion, ignore them and maybe they will ignore you, and you can go on with your life. It wasn't until I was beginning to do Star Trek that the subject of religion arose. What brought it up was that people were saying that I would have a chaplain on board the Enterprise. I replied, "No, we don't."


Yeah good on Gene for making the obvious prediction that religion won't be a significant part of the vast majority of people's life by 2266. I predict the demise of chaplains by 2066, never mind two hundred years later! It's already happened in vast majority of the developed world. The US lags behind the modern world in this area. There's no way IMO that enough adults 50 years from now will still be religious enough to require a chaplain in their place of work.


----------



## Joe (May 18, 2010)

CaspianDragon said:


> Well, considering that reindeers can't fly (it's against the laws of physics and all) and that santa clause is based on a real person (Saint Nichols)


You think Santa's Reindeers are the same as ordinary Reindeers? I don't think they are.

As for the question it has been said by ugh but it's a belief not knowledge.

But for me, I can't be bothered being nitpicky with **** so I tend not to get into specifics.


----------



## EMPx (Nov 2, 2014)

There is not a shred of evidence to even suggest that there is a god of any kind. 

No evidence, no facts that suggest there might be, nothing. Etc.

Religion is complete hokum


----------



## Zack (Apr 20, 2013)

I wanted to be a believer, but the stories I had to swallow to qualify were so fantastical that the only option my conscience would allow was to be an atheist.


----------



## drunkmonkey (Mar 26, 2014)

Does it really matter what you believe?


----------



## TheHopeless (Sep 11, 2013)

drunkmonkey said:


> Does it really matter what you believe?


Well that depends. For example, if someone holds sexist beliefs, then they are a POS.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

drunkmonkey said:


> Does it really matter what you believe?


It can be an issue it has an adverse effect on others.


----------



## DaveTE311 (May 8, 2014)

*Nice one !*



Zack said:


> I wanted to be a believer, but the stories I had to swallow to qualify were so fantastical that the only option my conscience would allow was to be an atheist.


Exactly! spot on,when I think of the bull forced on me at sunday school,looking back,the storys are totally barmy in the main,they might make a half decent fantasy film like Noah but they are not true.
There is lots of good evidence for example ufo's,radar reports,astronauts statements but this crackpot "current" god(there wont be any more)thinks that the burning bush should leave is in awe,a look through the hubble telescope is a bit more interesting and valid.
He is pretty good at hiding to and has a non intervention policy.....
Lets see,1st and 2nd world war,korean and vietnam wars,gulf wars and the sequels,christians and religious apologists say well,god has given us free will....ummm,bit of a sadist and why have we still got an appendix?
When something good happens in the world its " isn't god wonderful" but when theres a tragedy and hundreds of innocent people get carried away in a tsunami clinging onto their children we are told by the faithful "god is mysterious! no kidding ?


----------



## DaveTE311 (May 8, 2014)

Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions


----------



## Greenwick (Oct 12, 2012)

CaspianDragon said:


> Why are you an Atheist when you don't know if there is a God?


Are you me? Are you inside my head? Have you experienced what I've experienced, and learned what I've learned?

Also, do you want actual information, or did you really mean to say, "What is wrong with you closed minded jerks?"


----------



## Wren611 (Oct 19, 2012)

There are such things as gods, but they only exist in the minds of very silly people. And I've had to put that lightly to what I really wanted to say.


----------



## hiith (Oct 30, 2014)

drunkmonkey said:


> Does it really matter what you believe?


That depends on what you believe, actually.

Anyways, I consider myself "agnostic-atheist". What I mean by that is this: I believe that deities _probably don't_ exist. It seems to me that theism can neither be proven nor observed. So unless some of these unlikely religious claims of events in the past are true, religion is no more than mythology (and a coping mechanism and an explanation for things that aren't understood).


----------



## Minajincarnation (Nov 28, 2014)

Cause religion puts you in a box then forces you to get out of it. Need an example: Watch Carrie. Literally my life, all the time I spent being afraid of things kept me feeling more impure than all the smug atheists going with the flow feeling empowered by the things they enjoyed. Especially when it comes to gay people. Religion can make you look like such a fool, which the bible says is supposed to happen but my life experiences proved that maybe theres a possibility he doesn't exist or maybe he's different, much better to trust your instincts. Like how is believing that Christianity is right when the Native Americans passed. That's horrible and unless God booms down we will never know what's truly right. Being a Christian in this day and age is worse than hell, its being portrayed to be Satan himself.


----------



## Minajincarnation (Nov 28, 2014)

and South Park 


"But... Why would God do all those horrible things to prove a point?" Kyle said this, I believe and there were questions that I thought were dumb people ask, I mean after all he's God, he knows who's meant to die and whose to live but questions like the one Kyle asked always lived in my head.

Especially black people. Why did God let black people be demonized in the olden days. So sick.


----------



## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

I believe most athiests don't deny the possiblility of an existance of some creator, they just feel apathetic/uninterested towards the whole idea.Also, it isn't up to the athiest to prove there is no God, don't switch it up, it's up to the religious to prove there is one.Like in trials you're innocent unless proven guilty.Try applying your logic in other subjects and you'll see how silly it all sounds


----------



## vela (Apr 19, 2012)

For me Atheism means without theism. It doesn't mean I believe there's not a god and the entire concept of god is impossible. Nothing is impossible, but I do think the existence of what people refer to as god(s) is highly unlikely. 

Atheism isn't a belief system. Therefore as an Atheist I don't believe there isn't a god, I just assume that god doesn't exist because there's no compelling evidence for god's existence. Just like while I can't rule out the existence of the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy I still think it's highly unlikely that they actually exist.


----------



## Teflondon (Dec 5, 2014)

It doesn't really matter whether God exists, if you ask me. I'm no saint, but I'm not a murderer or rapist either, so I figure I either die and cease to exist, or I go to some version of heaven with a brief stopover in purgatory to reflect on my (relatively minor) sins before I get there. I don't believe that following some man-made doctrine is a ticket to get in, and I don't believe most of us ever do enough wrong to warrant fire and brimstone. 

In any case, we can't know if there truly is a God or not, but it's supremely arrogant to presume we know exactly what that God wants based on some old book or dogma, and even more ridiculous to presume he's so petty that he would actually care as to whether we believe in him in life. I think trying to be as good a person as possible is good enough, and making mistakes along the way is all part of it.


----------



## JustThisGuy (Mar 24, 2012)

CaspianDragon said:


> Why are you an Atheist when you don't know if there is a God? I'm an agnostic, because I don't know if there is a God, but I don't know there isn't one either. It's unknown if there ever was or still is a a large dinosaur creature in Loch Ness. Highly probable there wasn't, but we don't know for certain. My views may change in the near future, but to say there is definitely no god, where there isn't any god(s) which no evidence to me is just as silly as people who say "there is a God" when there isn't any proof.
> 
> It's also like saying "we haven't found any other life in the universe, so there obviously isn't any", that just baffles my mind. The concept of "I cant see it, so it must be fake" is so beyond my logic.


 They drained the lake and found nothing. Some large schools of fish and/or floating or sub-drifting debris spooked some fisherman and tales big-fished into a tales of old Scottish lore of peists (mythical water serpent with multiple heads in one story)) or simply singular creature with a singular head simply called The Peist, that'd eat fishermen. Or a kelpie (a mythical water horse [see Water Horse, the 2007 movie] that was depicted as bad or good, depending, like unicorns. (Yes, that's right, unicorns were actually known to be vicious in some cases of original lore) Then some "scientific" minded people were eventually like, "Well, it could be a thought extinct dinosaur, the plesiosaur." And then cryptozoologists when crazy over that idea because science talk then gave them an out for their following their interests on the lore of Nessie.

Same stuff in Lake Champlain, New York. They also have a "Nessie" like cryptid nicknamed Champ. He was in an X-Files episode.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is that superstitious people will pick and choose science when it appeases ridiculous claims. Ah, so god created the moon to make the tides go in and out. Scientist: "Wha....I did say...huh?" Unlike poor O'Reilly's examples of his belief in a higher power.




 What a moron.

Anyways... Why is it, as an agnostic, do you question? That's a sincere question I'm asking, not rhetoric. To me, that's a sign that you don't really believe, you just don't realize to an extent. All these religions, for 10s of thousands of years, and further back into pre-history, and you think anyone is right? It was people trying to make sense of nature, existence, and all the whys and hows. So they though maybe this is what's going on. Ego of sentience means that we'll see patterns and maybe guess that something like us or smarter must be doing these things, like lightning and earthquakes and wind and rain and life and death. We had reached an intelligence to where we had default ego, and that ego came with ignorance, so we filled the gap with our ego; "god of the gaps" ring a bell?

I just think it's silly to believe in something that has never been shown any shred of evidence towards and to even consider it a possibility. It's like considering we're in The Matrix or that we're greater than the very common, simple elements we're physiologically made up of that's all around the entire universe. We're not unique. And that's ok. It means that we're more connected than any religion will tell you. Every religion, even if indirectly, will tell its followers that they are not connected to those who don't believe their specific beliefs. It's depraved.





Not to be rude to you. But I've always found an agnostic to be unwilling to think about things more than they truly should/could and/or they don't want to offend the majority. No one wants to be alienated. Especially from family and friends. :/ Again, not to be harsh, just saying.


----------



## mud (Apr 12, 2009)

Why does it matter what you believe? Where I live there is a significant portion of christians who belive that beating their children is a good and pious thing to do. The rest of us call it abuse.

I know god is not real in the same way I know that the tooth fairy, easter bunny, Peter Pan and middle earth are not real.

I could disprove something, but what am I supposed to disprove? Your particular meaning of the word or the belief that nature is god or the belief that gods aren't even the highest beings and were created by Titans or from the period in Roman history when the Emperor (a man) was god? First come up with a universally agreed upon meaning of the word or else I will dimiss the idea as something people made up. Gods are different because the people who made them up are different.


----------



## daisilui (Jul 11, 2014)

wow, all kind of opinions, categorizations and definitions of what is an atheist, sprinkled with some name calling of those who think otherwise. On top of that is the question of whether one's belief matters, this on a background of a fairly wide-spread misconception that makes god and religion interchangeable items. On this point I guess that there's supposed to be a freedom of belief and if one's belief impacts another in a negative way, there must be a way to reach a compromise but calling people stupid or belittling them, especially on a site like this, is not kosher, my anxious fellows... Another point that seems to be... illogically missed by those who tend to rely exclusively on logic- belief is something that does not need proof= faith is part of the irrational and requires no logic. Things that can be measured need no faith but a measurement stick, observation and calculation. Someone says: 'god begins where all human calculations cease'. Science is not the tool to use for analyzing or measuring faith, consciousness and thought. We got philosophy and religion for these. In addition, even the application of the scientific discoveries rely on the morals and ethics, items of philosophy and religion. Don't use chainsaws to perform surgeries on living people, people!


----------



## CaspianDragon (Apr 17, 2014)

JustThisGuy said:


> They drained the lake and found nothing. Some large schools of fish and/or floating or sub-drifting debris spooked some fisherman and tales big-fished into a tales of old Scottish lore of peists (mythical water serpent with multiple heads in one story)) or simply singular creature with a singular head simply called The Peist, that'd eat fishermen. Or a kelpie (a mythical water horse [see Water Horse, the 2007 movie] that was depicted as bad or good, depending, like unicorns. (Yes, that's right, unicorns were actually known to be vicious in some cases of original lore) Then some "scientific" minded people were eventually like, "Well, it could be a thought extinct dinosaur, the plesiosaur." And then cryptozoologists when crazy over that idea because science talk then gave them an out for their following their interests on the lore of Nessie.
> 
> Same stuff in Lake Champlain, New York. They also have a "Nessie" like cryptid nicknamed Champ. He was in an X-Files episode.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, they did not drain Loch Ness. It would be imposible to do so. Loch Ness has 7,448,160,000 kilolitres of water. There would be nowhere to put it, and there would be no way to get it all back.


----------



## JustThisGuy (Mar 24, 2012)

CaspianDragon said:


> I'm sorry, they did not drain Loch Ness. It would be imposible to do so. Loch Ness has 7,448,160,000 kilolitres of water. There would be nowhere to put it, and there would be no way to get it all back.


Of course not, but I watched a documentary where they dammed off points and drained them. And did it in multiple spots. Nothing found. Not that that's shocking.


----------



## mud (Apr 12, 2009)

daisilui said:


> ... Someone says: 'god begins where all human calculations cease'...


That's right. You can only find gods in the darkness of ignorance; the light of knowledge is deadly to all deities.


----------



## daisilui (Jul 11, 2014)

*You can only find gods in the darkness of ignorance*



mud said:


> That's right. You can only find gods in the darkness of ignorance; the light of knowledge is deadly to all deities.


precisely my man! God is beyond human knowledge and calculations ; as mentioned, God starts when all your knowledge is powerless and you need a different tool to deal with that reality [the 'someone' who said that was actually Kierkegaard]. I'm not talking about playing the role of a side kibitz suggesting solutions to others' problems but when yourself are in deep poop and all your knowledge, muscle power and intelligence are useless. This is the deepest darkness [of ignorance, if you want] which, unfortunately, you seem to assimilate with imbecility or backwardness of troglodytes living in caves, scared of their shadows on the walls. The genius and the imbecile are both of the same rank when are faced with terror, desperation, anxiety [!!!]... pain and suffering. Here's where God comes into play for the one who believes in miracles as all hope in world's wisdom is dead. For the other one there's only emptiness, darkness and despair as god is a personal god, it is like something you either have or you don't rather than the universal master that handles the carrot and the stick. Even if the outcome is the same, this is about how you get there and not about what comes next.
Faith is not a matter of IQ. Look at it as a tool in your toolbox. You can try to fix all life's problems with the sledgehammer of knowledge [if this is the only tool you choose to have in your tool-belt]. Others may want to have more options- there's no right or wrong just choices.


----------



## tonyhd71 (Jul 27, 2014)

The creation story, the bible, religion blah blah blah all that is nothing but man-made stories. 

Religion was created for profit. Do you believe in Santa Claus? How can I prove that Santa doesn't exist?


----------



## daisilui (Jul 11, 2014)

tonyhd71 said:


> The creation story, the bible, religion blah blah blah all that is nothing but man-made stories.
> 
> Religion was created for profit. Do you believe in Santa Claus? How can I prove that Santa doesn't exist?


dude, santa is what you think about him not what others tell you he is [man made stories]. were you happier when they told you/you found out by yourself that santa was not real? what do you need proof for?! would you behave differently if you had the proof? what do you choose- the happiness of an illusion or the bleakness of the truth/reality?! i think that we are all living in illusions. we love someone despite of the reality of their mortality, ignoring that they are made out of guts and flesh, bones and all kind of juices. possessing a new toy makes you happy- isn't this satisfaction offered by an inanimate object that is worthless for another person an illusion? you may think that is the object that makes you happy when the reality is that your mind assigns a value to that object which tomorrow may become a trivial thing. where do you draw the line between reality and illusion? to conclude, would you enjoy life if you saw the harsh reality beyond what surrounds us and analyze everything objectively? why don't you start a campaign to tell little kids that santa is dead?!


----------



## kageri (Oct 2, 2014)

Someone told you what santa clause was or you wouldn't have known. Someone told you stories about what he does and where he lives. The only difference is they then told you they made it up or other people did when you got old enough your friends might make fun of you.


----------



## tonyhd71 (Jul 27, 2014)

daisilui said:


> dude, santa is what you think about him not what others tell you he is [man made stories]. were you happier when they told you/you found out by yourself that santa was not real? what do you need proof for?! would you behave differently if you had the proof? what do you choose- the happiness of an illusion or the bleakness of the truth/reality?! i think that we are all living in illusions. we love someone despite of the reality of their mortality, ignoring that they are made out of guts and flesh, bones and all kind of juices. possessing a new toy makes you happy- isn't this satisfaction offered by an inanimate object that is worthless for another person an illusion? you may think that is the object that makes you happy when the reality is that your mind assigns a value to that object which tomorrow may become a trivial thing. where do you draw the line between reality and illusion? to conclude, would you enjoy life if you saw the harsh reality beyond what surrounds us and analyze everything objectively? why don't you start a campaign to tell little kids that santa is dead?!


Why is the reality/truth bleak to you? Is that why you believe in religion, to make up for the bleakness of reality?

You have to find enjoyment in this life, that way you won't need to look for an afterlife. You won't need to look forward to a heaven, because this can be your heaven. If you find ways to enjoy your time here on earth, there is no reason why you will need to look forward to the illusion of a heaven. Who needs heaven, when there can be a heaven right here on earth? Pursue your dreams, live your life to the fullest.

If you believe in heaven because reality is bleak, you are just trying to cover up reality by creating an illusion, because you aren't satisfied in this world, and that is why you tell yourself there is a better world after this life.

What you should do, rather than rely on a fictional heaven in order to find happiness, is look for your happiness right here in this current life. That way you won't need that illusion.

You are using the illusion of heaven as a crutch. You think that heaven can make up for the bleakness of reality. Rather than rely on that crutch, find happiness here, right now. Turn this bleakness into light. THAT should be your priority. Not relying on an illusion to make up for the bleakness of reality.

And if you can't turn this bleakness into light, than at least you can say you tried. That is way better than simply accepting this bleakness and looking forward to an afterlife in order to find happiness- an afterlife that will never come.


----------



## daisilui (Jul 11, 2014)

tonyhd71 said:


> Why is the reality/truth bleak to you? Is that why you believe in religion, to make up for the bleakness of reality?
> 
> You have to find enjoyment in this life, that way you won't need to look for an afterlife. You won't need to look forward to a heaven, because this can be your heaven. If you find ways to enjoy your time here on earth, there is no reason why you will need to look forward to the illusion of a heaven. Who needs heaven, when there can be a heaven right here on earth? Pursue your dreams, live your life to the fullest.
> 
> ...


you either don't get it or you don't want to [perhaps a more careful reading of what I'm saying would help...].

I've been trying to tell you to separate religion [man made stories] from your inner personal beliefs/spiritual life. Otherwise I totally agree- I don't believe in the afterlife promises as I don't believe doing things out of fear of a vengeful Santa or out of calculation to prepare a cushiony future for myself. I believe in living here and now; however, in my effort of doing that I don't know where's the muscles to flex to find happiness. In my experience I can see how superficial I am [humans are] in seeking it in all kind of illusions= dead ends that eventually disappoint me/us. But all is good when things are good- I can be easily satisfied with simple things that I take for granted, e.g. , a roof over my head, some good food, entertainment of some sort- sport, beer, ... [although I cannot ignore that these are things that can't be taken for granted for others in this world].

The problem is that life is not that peachy all the time especially for a person who goes through anxiety/depression periods when the illusion of simple things are not satisfactory any longer. Then all the theory you propose 'What you should do, rather than rely on a fictional heaven in order to find happiness, is look for your happiness right here in this current life. That way you won't need that illusion You are using the illusion of heaven as a crutch. You think that heaven can make up for the bleakness of reality. Rather than rely on that crutch, find happiness here, right now. Turn this bleakness into light. THAT should be your priority. Not relying on an illusion to make up for the bleakness of reality.' falls apart. 
How can I look for your happiness right here [any practical suggestions?!]; how do you move forward when you can't get out of this on your own human powers and science or your friends can't do anything either to help?! I must seek other tools, inside myself rather than out, call it God or whatever- one does one one needs to do to get out of the bleakness of this painful reality of depression.

This God has nothing to do with the concept of a god that is sold by the organized religions other than that I use the same name for the concept due to tradition and for the sake of simplicity. Such a relation is an association based on need and love, on freedom of action and thought. This is my personal God and not our common Santa Claus. If you don't need one [a god or a Santa], that's your choice so instead of waiting for the miracle of a Christmas, you can buy something for yourself from Futureshop on boxing day, for example, to make you happy for a moment [what else can you do?!]. Just different types of illusion; the ones that may satisfy you are not good enough for me due to their short lived promise of happiness and their impotence in helping with my existential crises.


----------



## daisilui (Jul 11, 2014)

kageri said:


> Someone told you what santa clause was or you wouldn't have known. Someone told you stories about what he does and where he lives. The only difference is they then told you they made it up or other people did when you got old enough your friends might make fun of you.


of course someone told you about this as they told and taught you what to wear, how and what to eat, language and tastes.... this doesn't mean that you continue following them [note the difference in the tense of the verb- it is not about the past but about the present, i.e. people keep telling you stuff...]. once you are a grown up you can make up your own mind about everything.
if you still care about fitting in and about friends making fun of you you're either not grown up yet or you have the wrong friends [or both...]


----------



## RelativelyMe (Dec 11, 2013)

As members of a forum revolved around Anxiety we should all acknowledge that the quest for certainty can be anxiety provoking; especially if you have OCD or obsessive thoughts. The same way that aiming for perfection can also amplify anxiety. For example with social anxiety we can never know for certain how people perceive us but living with uncertainty makes us have doubts about our ability in social situations.

Same goes for me being an atheist. I can never be certain but I'm confident and comfortable with my conclusion due to a number of things:

1). Simply the multiple areas of psychology help to explain the many ways we've have acted throughout history. Whether it be chauvinistic ethnic ties, religious devotion, lack of empathy, insecurities and etc.

2) Acknowledgement of different cultures and different ways of thought. Ex: East Vs West. 

3) How religious belief can be a crutch or mask for those dealing with emotional and mental strife. Same way how there are addicts to money, sex, alcohol, drugs and etc.

4) The existence of suffering and our contradictory attempts to deal with it. In one way we try to numb our suffering by either fitting in, drinking alcohol, avoid difficult situations. Other ways we enjoy suffering and sometimes we become addicted to it by making up rituals and etc. Religions do this very well

5) Simply said religious stories and writings are interesting because of the human elements that exist in them not their claims to truth.

It is impossible for anyone to be certain but we can make approximations and leaps of faith/logic given a certain context.


----------



## ILikeCats (Dec 20, 2014)

I also don't know for sure if goblins or leprechauns are real, but I'm not gonna bother spending my whole life spectating.


----------



## Common Misconception (Jun 4, 2012)

CaspianDragon said:


> Why are you an Atheist when you don't know if there is a God? I'm an agnostic, because I don't know if there is a God, but I don't know there isn't one either. It's unknown if there ever was or still is a a large dinosaur creature in Loch Ness. Highly probable there wasn't, but we don't know for certain. My views may change in the near future, but to say there is definitely no god, where there isn't any god(s) which no evidence to me is just as silly as people who say "there is a God" when there isn't any proof.
> 
> It's also like saying "we haven't found any other life in the universe, so there obviously isn't any", that just baffles my mind. The concept of "I cant see it, so it must be fake" is so beyond my logic.


Until there is solid and testable evidence of a "god" (and it's up to the theists to provide the burden of proof) the stance is simply that there is no god. Simple as that.

I mean anyone can make up something that can't be tested, and say it's true because of 'faith'. But then we never progress as a species and stay limited to these rigid and restrictive ideals that we set for ourselves.


----------



## Joe (May 18, 2010)

TicklemeRingo said:


> Basically it's a long and ultimately largely fruitless debate.


I was worried you'd end up going into a serious debate for a second. It's too much effort to use specific terms when it doesn't matter if I believe there's no god or I just kinda maybe think that there probably isn't a god. Agnostic is a hipster word.

In most other scenarios people have to prove something exists, rather than proving something doesn't exist, which obviously is impossible to prove.


----------

