# are body detoxes good for you?



## idolizechristinasalgado (Mar 21, 2013)

maybe i'm just obsessing but I feel like all this unnatural, processed food is gonna take a toll....


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

I'm on the fence about this as well.

On one hand, overly processed food is largely sterile. No germs, but equally no nutritious value.

I put spices on food and go from there. Ancient Rome felt Pepper was so beneficial and valuable they thought it was worth it's weight in gold. The first line of anti-psychotics were largely derived from pepper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperidine



> Piperidine itself has been obtained from black pepper,[6] from Psilocaulon absimile N.E.Br (Aizoaceae),[7] and in Petrosimonia monandra.[8]


Over the years, sugar has basically become the only flavor that is universally accepted as tasting good, or pleasant. So... the ancient traditions of using herbs and spices has largely fallen to the way side. Is that good? Or bad? I have my suspicions.

Body detoxes. Well... that's another thing I'm working on figuring out.

Is a seizure the bodies immune system in a heightened state of energy?

There is your answer.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090706161308.htm



> Chronic seizures caused by traumatic head injuries may result from chemicals released by the brain's immune system attempting to repair the injured site, according to a new study.


I did a detox and experienced seizure style activity during the week long regime.

Seizure is another word which basically is an increase, a massive increase of electrical energy in the brain.

Scared me a little as the substance I thought was responsible causing the seizure style activity reports seizures as a side effect, it also lists brain damage as a possible side effect as well. I felt nowhere near death. However, understanding where the various thresholds are is no easy task.

So there is really good reason to be careful and understand the various thresholds. Some substances will work better at lower doses, some at medium dose, and some become very toxic and cause neuron cell death at high doses. That's called the LD50.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose



> In toxicology, the median lethal dose, LD50 (abbreviation for "lethal dose, 50%"), LC50 (lethal concentration, 50%) or LCt50 (lethal concentration and time) of a toxin, radiation, or pathogen is the dose required to kill half the members of a tested population after a specified test duration. LD50 figures are frequently used as a general indicator of a substance's acute toxicity.


Stay far away from those levels, unless you are the type who is injecting snake venom into their bloodstream or something.

Now that's in regards with a herbal cleanse that is supposedly effective at killing bacteria and other parasites.

I am only beginning to learn about metal detoxing, which is something different. Apparently we carry around so much heavy metals in our systems, the metals tend to bog down the systems performance.


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## noscreenname (Feb 24, 2013)

As long as you have a healthy liver you should be fine.

You can do it for placebo reasons though, nothing wrong with that. You will feel better if you think you need it. Just make sure you use common sense before you do anything and listen to your body.

As a matter of objectivity though "toxins" and "detoxing" is all a load of bull.

Here is some good info: 
http://www.skepdic.com/detox.html


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

Okay, here's a good question. Are seasonal allergies, a healthy immune system fighting off irritants? Or are they weak immune systems who cannot effectively fight off irritants?

Another thing worth considering is they linked asthma with swimmers.

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/chlorine/asthma.htm

Now the real question is. Do we all have asthma in some way shape or form, yet those of us experiencing no ill effects of asthma, do we simply have better immune systems, and has the bleach in one way or another caused a deficiency with an immune system.

Remember, steroids are the treatment of choice for asthma sufferers.

So yes, in a sense, too many unnatural things over sterilize us, and compromise our immune systems.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

noscreenname said:


> As a matter of objectivity though "toxins" and "detoxing" is all a load of bull.
> 
> Here is some good info:
> http://www.skepdic.com/detox.html


Sure, but what do water purification systems do? They detoxify the water or remove toxic items from the water.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/13/health/cilantro-purifies-water-time/



> The next time you find yourself facing some questionable drinking water, look for some cilantro.
> 
> At least that's what a team of U.S. and Mexican researchers made up of undergraduate students suggest.


When you poison yourself, what do they suggest you eat? Activated Charcoal. what do they filter water with? Charcoal.



> "The organic toxins we can take care of pretty easily with a number of different methods, but the only way to really get rid of those heavy metals is to treat them with filtering agents like activated charcoal (like what's found in a Brita filter), but those types of materials are kind of expensive," says Schauer. "They are a little expensive for us to use, but they are very expensive to the people living in that region."


This is where evolutionary theory, or genetics, or whatever, comes into question.

http://www.nature.com/news/soapy-taste-of-coriander-linked-to-genetic-variants-1.11398



> "O soapy flavour / Why pollutest thou my food? / Thou me makest retch," reads one of the hundreds of haikus posted to the website IHateCilantro.com. There is clearly sympathy for this stance - 21% of east Asians, 17% of people of European ancestry and 14% of people of African descent say they dislike the stuff, according to a paper published this year in the journal Flavour4. *By contrast, 3-7% of south Asians, Latin Americans and Middle Eastern subjects disapproved of the herb, which is more common in their native cuisines*.


We have taste buds for specific reasons. Cilantro is bitter. However, some of us taste things as a toxic soapy flavor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taste#Bitterness



> Bitterness is of interest to those who study evolution, as well as various health researchers[21][26] since a large number of natural bitter compounds are known to be toxic. The ability to detect bitter-tasting, toxic compounds at low thresholds is considered to provide an important protective function.[21][26][27] Plant leaves often contain toxic compounds, yet even amongst leaf-eating primates, there is a tendency to prefer immature leaves, which tend to be higher in protein and lower in fiber and poisons than mature leaves.[28] Amongst humans, various food processing techniques are used worldwide to detoxify otherwise inedible foods and make them palatable.[29]


@NoScreenName - From your article...



> It's an irrational concept, yet an intriguing idea, that modern life so fills us with poisons from polluted air and food additives that we need to be periodically "cleaned out" ("detoxified"). Never mind that natural chemicals in our foods are thousands of times more potent than additives, or that most Americans are healthier, live longer, and can choose from the most healthful food supply ever available. -- Frances M. Berg, M.S.


No... Latino Americans live longer...

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2013/us-hispanics-life-expectancy.aspx



> (July 2013) Despite having lower income and education levels, U.S. Hispanics tend to outlive non-Hispanic whites by several years (see table).


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## noscreenname (Feb 24, 2013)

MrKappa said:


> Sure, but what do water purification systems do? They detoxify the water or remove toxic items from the water.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/13/health/cilantro-purifies-water-time/
> 
> When you poison yourself, what do they suggest you eat? Activated Charcoal. what do they filter water with? Charcoal.


I'm not sure what you are driving at here. Some chemicals are bad for you and shouldn't be ingested in large amounts, yes. I suppose technically yes you are "detoxifying" the water of poisons.

But there's no proof that any of the "detox therapies" being touted are anything more than snake oil (fasting, colonics, chelation, etc)



> This is where evolutionary theory, or genetics, or whatever, comes into question.
> 
> http://www.nature.com/news/soapy-taste-of-coriander-linked-to-genetic-variants-1.11398
> 
> ...


Some bitter things like coffee tastes good to us and are actually beneficial in moderate amounts. I think this is where our intellect pushes past evolutionary instinct and genetics. I'm hispanic and I hate Cilantro by the way, I'll eat it anyways though if it's too much of a bother to order without it.



> @NoScreenName - From your article...
> 
> No... Latino Americans live longer...
> 
> http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2013/us-hispanics-life-expectancy.aspx


They where obviously talking about today compared to a century or two ago when there where no processed foods. Again I'm not sure what you are driving at here. The article you link itself references not smoking could be a big factor. There could be many variables to consider.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

Generally, and I've only eaten dinners with first generation Argentinians which I will guess is as close as I'm going to get to real traditional Mexican. Their diet is wildly different than processed food culture. I have heard many times that Mexican food in popular restaurants is a massive departure from real Mexican cuisine.

On average, and be honest, can you link any healthy habits with longevity and your family histories?

Mercury is real toxin in the body. I was thinking of splurging on a metal test kit to see what if any levels there are before I start the metal detox, and after, but I may save a couple bucks and simply do the detox.

http://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/chemicals/hsees/mercury/mercury_exposure_levels.htm



noscreenname said:


> They where obviously talking about today compared to a century or two ago when there where no processed foods.


Yeah, by far during the world wars, and early industrialization, life spans were a lot less than they are today. May be some links to lifestyle and premature deaths. People were living well into their eighties and probably longer in ancient Greece.

http://historum.com/ancient-history/47640-life-expectancy-greece-rome-ancient-times.html



Midas said:


> Thales of Miletus: 92
> Democritus: 90
> Diogenes: 89
> Apollonius: 85
> ...


If it helps, during the Roman expansion era, one large quest was lead mining. If you know about lead, you'll know that back then slaves were probably dying after a decades worth of work or less. So... yeah, pollution is probably a genuine issue in terms of toxicity and poison, and premature death.


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## bonz (Jun 6, 2007)

For me it has. I've been on a candida diet for almost a month and although very challenging and hard, with the symptoms I have it's all worth it. My past diet was binge drinking, processed foods and that's it. It's definitely showing up in my health these days and it's horrible as i never treated my body well. That's western diet for you.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

^I used to work with 1rst generation Italians, and they taught me this...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mangia Cake

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21690003



> Why do the Italians live longer than us?
> 
> A healthy diet is a key factor towards a long life
> 
> ...


There is little room with co-incidence. Possible, but yeah, healthy eating.



> On life expectancy we came 14th - slipping down two places since 1990. Italy, by contrast, rose from 5th to 2nd - ahead of France, Germany, and Sweden.


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## noscreenname (Feb 24, 2013)

MrKappa said:


> ^I used to work with 1rst generation Italians, and they taught me this...
> 
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mangia Cake
> 
> ...


Yes but healthy eating and exercise don't involve "toxins" and "detoxes" a lot of these cultures have large amounts of coffee, tea and alcohol use too "to promote health"


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## ShatteredGlass (Oct 12, 2012)

I've heard that the 'lemon detox' diet is REALLY bad for you..


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

^Why do you say that? Interesting. I've been scared off lemons, except with the occasional sprig of lemon juice in a dinner dish, with reluctance, ever since a lemon meringue pie scorched the insides of my intestinal tract like hellfire.

I understand it's acidic, I simply lack the finer understanding as how that does damage. Is it cleaning out bacteria? Reacting when destroying bacteria?

Or is it a basic, sour = acid, which is a signal to stay away message. I mean naturally, sour has some good potential, no?

Could be wrong. Maybe sour is the worst tasting flavor, you know, besides acquired tastes along the lines of alcohols.



noscreenname said:


> Yes but healthy eating and exercise don't involve "toxins" and "detoxes" a lot of these cultures have large amounts of coffee, tea and alcohol use too "to promote health"


Yeah, too much of anything is no good.

Chocolate is toxic. It will kill you in the right amounts. Kills dogs. In fact, we as a society protect dogs from ingesting a tiny bit of the stuff, yet humans, we celebrate chocolate on nearly every major holiday.

Coffee will totally burn you out, btw... you know, if you hit the 3 or 4 pots a day for months routine.


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## awakenedwolf (Mar 2, 2014)

idolizechristinasalgado said:


> maybe i'm just obsessing but I feel like all this unnatural, processed food is gonna take a toll....


All the sugar that we eat today reeks havoc on your body along with the processed foods.
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f11/my-nutrition-plan-895890/

You should consider cutting out gluten, soy, wheat and stick to whole grains. I bet your body feels better after a month of doing that.


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## awakenedwolf (Mar 2, 2014)

noscreenname said:


> I'm not sure what you are driving at here. Some chemicals are bad for you and shouldn't be ingested in large amounts, yes. I suppose technically yes you are "detoxifying" the water of poisons.
> 
> But there's no proof that any of the "detox therapies" being touted are anything more than snake oil (fasting, colonics, chelation, etc)
> 
> ...


I was in a holistic treatment facility for a month, and they offered Colonics, Ionic foot baths, Saunas, acupuncture, reiki energy healing, massages etc. And the majority of residents at the facility seemed to benefit a ton from the activities that were offered. I watched 20 year benzo addicts and 20 year stimulant addicts reduce there chronic anxiety a ton. I assume it's because everyone was ridding there bodies of toxins and heavy metals. It's a fact that in this day and age, there are so many pollutants in the air we breathe, in our food etc. And a lot of our bodies have high amounts of heavy metals in them.
If anything, I would recommend getting tested for heavy metals in the least.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

This thread has remained surprisingly scientific, I'm impressed.



MrKappa said:


> ^Why do you say that? Interesting. I've been scared off lemons, except with the occasional sprig of lemon juice in a dinner dish, with reluctance, ever since a lemon meringue pie scorched the insides of my intestinal tract like hellfire.
> 
> I understand it's acidic, I simply lack the finer understanding as how that does damage. Is it cleaning out bacteria? Reacting when destroying bacteria?
> 
> ...


Lemons are fine. Except for your teeth, but otherwise fine.



> Coffee will totally burn you out, btw... you know, if you hit the 3 or 4 pots a day for months routine.


Caffeine tolerance builds up extremely quickly. You can maintain its effects in lower doses by "throttling down" your caffeine intake so to speak for a few days. It depends on how you function as an individual, but generally you're going to want to consume just enough to keep the withdrawal symptoms away and slowly lower it from there.

---



awakenedwolf said:


> I was in a holistic treatment facility for a month, and they offered Colonics, Ionic foot baths, Saunas, acupuncture, reiki energy healing, massages etc. And the majority of residents at the facility seemed to benefit a ton from the activities that were offered. I watched 20 year benzo addicts and 20 year stimulant addicts reduce there chronic anxiety a ton. I assume it's because everyone was ridding there bodies of toxins and heavy metals. It's a fact that in this day and age, there are so many pollutants in the air we breathe, in our food etc. And a lot of our bodies have high amounts of heavy metals in them.
> If anything, I would recommend getting tested for heavy metals in the least.


You don't think it had more to do from removing themselves from stressful environments?


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## awakenedwolf (Mar 2, 2014)

Of course being in a calm/safe environment played a big part too. Great to be around people who are supportive and truly care, no doubt about it. But the facility I went too had a book of stories from hundreds of past residents who graduated the program and they attributed there success in coming off Meth, Crack, Benzos etc. in large part to the Detox program which includes the above along with the caring supportive staff who worked at the facility. I personally felt amazing after using the sauna daily for a couple weeks along with messages. Also the strict diet played a big part to, no processed foods whatsoever or gluten and sugar.
Ultimately though everyone has there own opinion, and until you try a complete program like the above yourself you can't really make a judgement. And this facility has been around for 7 years or so and have a really high success rate with people who had all sorts of chronic psych disorders and addictions. For $20,000 dollars a month you better get good results though haha. So I would say yes if people are hurting that bad in there life's and are willing to spend that much money then there must be something to it for the high success rate. They are able to get people off every medication and drug you can think of, and get them into a stable mind frame with no anxiety to extremely low anxiety. I got that from talking to residents directly who had already graduated from the program.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

It's not really an opinion because it's unsupported by scientific literature. I hear the same thing said of chiropractors all the time, but the evidence overwhelmingly points that it's completely ineffective.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

Oh whoa... herbals are very effective. Whether they are more art than science, yeah, they are probably a little on the art side.



Sacrieur said:


> It's not really an opinion because it's unsupported by scientific literature.


It's in there, you sort of have to dig around though. Rarely do scientific journals discuss herbal concoctions, but rather they focus on the extracts of various herbals.

When looking, search for things like immunomodulatory, anti-fungal, anti-viral, anti-bacterial and such.

Use Google Scholar - http://scholar.google.ca/



Sacrieur said:


> Lemons are fine. Except for your teeth, but otherwise fine.


Hmmmnnn... it causes cavities?

So the lemons are immuno suppressant? I bet they are... it's straight up acid... anti-bacterial, anti-viral, but yeah, straight up acid.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/77463-side-effects-much-citric-acid/



> *What Are the Side Effects of Too Much Citric Acid?*
> 
> The most common symptoms of citric acid overdose include stomach cramps or pain, diarrhea, nausea or vomiting, loss of appetite, increased sweating and swelling, and pain in the abdominal or stomach area. In rare cases, yellow eyes or skin may occur.


Sounds as if there is a potential jaundice thing happening in large enough doses, in the right people, eh?

Anyways, lemon grass, which is slightly different than citric acid, well, that's in herbal detoxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cymbopogon

Hmmmnnn... I wonder if Critic Acid tastes sour, and perhaps the Citrus flavor of Lemon grass is not sour, and is a key component of anti-bacterial, anti-viral and other properties?



> Despite its ability to repel insects, its oil is commonly used as a "lure" to attract honey bees.


Sounds as if there is magic inside that citrus smell, eh?

The sourness that goes along with the acid, man I bet that's natural defense from the lemon fruit that basically kills everything, and the citrus smell, or the flavor of citrus, minus the acid, is something nutritionally special.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

MrKappa said:


> Oh whoa... herbals are very effective. Whether they are more art than science, yeah, they are probably a little on the art side.
> 
> It's in there, you sort of have to dig around though. Rarely do scientific journals discuss herbal concoctions, but rather they focus on the extracts of various herbals.
> 
> ...


Herbs are part of modern medicine. Like aspirin, digitalis, or quinine.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

Willow Bark, Warifins, yeah, it's all from plants.

Anyways, what do you think of this claim?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipteryx_odorata



> Radio-carbon dating of D. odorata stumps left by a large logging operation near Manaus by Niro Higuchi, Jeffrey Chambers and Joshua Schimel, showed that it was one of around 100 species which definitely live to over 1,000 years. Until their research, it had been assumed unlikely that any Amazonian tree could live to old age due to the conditions of the rain forest.[4]


Makes me want to buy the book...

http://books.google.ca/books/about/Ancient_Trees.html?id=wM8JLgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y



> Celebrate some of the most beautiful, longest-living organisms on the planet: trees that have survived 1,000 years. Stunning photos capture species ranging from European Oaks and California Redwoods to Africa's "upside-down" Baobabs and *Asian Ginkgos*.


The only thing I truly do not trust, is the folk tale that introducing mushrooms into the diet is an effective longevity solution. I mean those fungals are simply waiting around for the right moment, no?

I'm sticking to the trees and grasses, fingers crossed.

Anyways, I know it isn't exactly herbal cleansing, but right now my big thing is propolis. Apparently the bees forage for tree resins and use it as a first line of defense against invaders.

Sure sure... toxic possibilities, nothing is without risk... Sour => Acid, Resin => Toxin, and so on...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resin



> The toxic resinous compounds may confound a wide range of herbivores, insects, and pathogens; while the volatile phenolic compounds may attract benefactors such as parasitoids or predators of the herbivores that attack the plant.[2]


Fingers crossed the bees know what they are doing.










Does that remind you of a ground based telescope array peering into the farthest reaches of space, similar in scope as an electron microscope, or what?


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

Trees are a unique in that under stable environment conditions, their structure allows them to live for extraordinary lengths of time. The main reason for this sort of thing is that while trees get sick too, they lack the sophisticated centralized system we humans have. Our kidneys fail, we die; our hearts stop, we die; our brain shuts down, we die. Well, you get the picture. Trees don't have this problem. If some leaves die it's fine just grow more. Same with every other part of it.

Trees can and do get cancer as well, just like all other living things. It's just that cancer isn't dangerous to a tree because it can't metastasize for the reason above.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

See, now I would have thought that specific trees that live into their thousandth year have unique immunosystem properties. Sap is said to be a part of the trees immune system. They are attacked by molds, fungus, bacteria, virus and insects, as any other living organism is. So, that's my general working theory, although yeah, it's most certainly nothing set in stone.

A tree living over a thousand years in the Amazon, I immediately associated that with the diversity of life in that area, and the toll that must take on every life form living there, however sure, I could be wrong.


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## awakenedwolf (Mar 2, 2014)

Sacrieur said:


> It's not really an opinion because it's unsupported by scientific literature. I hear the same thing said of chiropractors all the time, but the evidence overwhelmingly points that it's completely ineffective.


 Care to share the evidence your referring to? I have many family members in addition to friends and acquaintances that have benefited a ton from going to chiropractors. Also you can easily do a search and find the facts on back surgery which show a common pattern of failure to reduce back pain on the patients who get back surgery. So I could say the same for what the "scientific" and "medical" community advocate for, and they talk crap on chiropractors. You sound like one of those people who has to have complete scientific evidence to believe anyone is actually benefiting from a certain therapy. 
Not everything that helps people can be explained completely by "science". Would you by any chance have the same opinion about acupuncture? Even though it has been used successfully for thousands of years to treat pain in the short term. Even many successful high level athletes get acupuncture regularly due to injuries they get. You seem sort of close minded tbh.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

awakenedwolf said:


> Care to share the evidence your referring to? I have many family members in addition to friends and acquaintances that have benefited a ton from going to chiropractors. Also you can easily do a search and find the facts on back surgery which show a common pattern of failure to reduce back pain on the patients who get back surgery. So I could say the same for what the "scientific" and "medical" community advocate for, and they talk crap on chiropractors. You sound like one of those people who has to have complete scientific evidence to believe anyone is actually benefiting from a certain therapy.
> Not everything that helps people can be explained completely by "science". Would you by any chance have the same opinion about acupuncture? Even though it has been used successfully for thousands of years to treat pain in the short term. Even many successful high level athletes get acupuncture regularly due to injuries they get. You seem sort of close minded tbh.


A Cochrane review found that SMT had no effect on back pain (link). Another review found that it is effective on the treatment of sciatica (link).

Other claims of health and well-being have weak evidence or no evidence, making a formal declaration on its efficacy improper.

It would be best for chiropractic to gets its stuff together, find out what works and why, then meld itself into current medicine as an aspect of PT.

---

Acupuncture has been especially hard to show one way or the other. The studies done so far vary wildly with results, so no formal declaration should be made. It should be noted, however, that the principles on which acupuncture is based has zero scientific credibility (qi).

---

It's time we remove the mysticism from medicine. Long forgotten are the days when we made up guesses about things. We're smarter than that now and we have to tools to peer into the microscopic world around us that confounded our ancestors. No doubt modern medicine would seem like magic to them. But it is only because we understand the principles involved that we are capable of these feats. Our understanding has led to great advancements like the creation of the MRI machine.

Medicine isn't ideal in its current form, but it's the best we have. It's understanding that creates enlightenment, not carving out animal flesh beneath stars.

It's not a rejection of the natural world, it's the embracing of it. We look through microscopes and see that the natural isn't explained by metaphysical energies or souls. Our bodies are made of proteins and molecules, interacting through complex chemistry. And through this understanding we have begun fashioning tools with which to combat our own mortality.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

That's funny, because I was thinking the opposite. We need a return to mysticism and we need to retreat from commercialization.

For instance, I met a Micmac Native over the summer, and I was carrying around an eagle feather, and he told me it was used in smudging ceremonies. Basically to spread mud over the body.

Obviously this is a lost art of detoxing the system or drawing out toxins from the skin using specialized herbs and clays.

Exactly as we do in modern times with mud baths, and clay masks.

However, where-ever you look, it has formerly been commercialized and reduced to the selling of sage bundles for the purposes of burning.

Whatever you thought you knew about ancient medicine, think again, because the arts have been long lost and forgotten.

Too bad really, because back then they had no choice except to perform risky practices on dying subjects resulting in truly effective and revolutionary medicines.

3,500+ years of lost science.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22288378



> *2012 Apr*
> 
> *The additive and synergistic antimicrobial effects of select frankincense and myrrh oils--a combination from the pharaonic pharmacopoeia.*
> 
> Frankincense and myrrh essential oils have been used in combination since 1500 bc; however, no antimicrobial investigations have been undertaken to confirm their effect in combination. This study validates the enhanced efficacy when used in combination against a selection of pathogens.





Sacrieur said:


> It's not a rejection of the natural world, it's the embracing of it. We look through microscopes and see that the natural isn't explained by metaphysical energies or souls. Our bodies are made of proteins and molecules, interacting through complex chemistry. And through this understanding we have begun fashioning tools with which to combat our own mortality.


They knew that stuff back then. Only difference is we are incapable of respecting the intelligence of ancient healing traditions, and instead of looking at a miracle as what it was, which was a medicine practice, we pretend there is no value with the claim.

Jesus miraculously cured children with seizures and derelict lepers. Well, lets face facts, three magicians brought him wealth and valuable medicine. A metaphor, that represents ancient healing practices in the ancient church.

As if witches never existed, as if they never practiced unordained healing and magical arts that went against the establishment of the day.

For sure, realigning a back is going to alleviate pain sometimes. How do you fix a dislocated shoulder? With a microscope?

Next time you see an ancient symbol of a person holding a snake. Remember...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17309613



> The present findings indicate that viperidae (D. russelli russelli) and elapidae (P. australis) venoms have significant antibacterial effects against gram (+) and gram (-) bacteria, which may be the result of the primary antibacterial components of laao, and in particular, the PLA(2) enzymes. The results would be useful for further purification and characterization of antibacterial agents from snake venoms.


http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/03/08/study-bee-venom-kills-hiv



> Scientists at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis found that melittin, a toxin found in bee venom, physically destroys the HIV virus, a breakthrough that could potentially lead to drugs that are immune to HIV resistance. The study was published Thursday in the journal Antiviral Therapy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius



> In Greek mythology, the Rod of Asclepius (⚕;[1] sometimes also spelled Asklepios or Aesculapius), also known as the asklepian,[2] is a serpent-entwined rod wielded by the Greek god Asclepius, a deity associated with healing and medicine.












Wait till they find out. That staff is probably a tree that has amazing anti-venom properties.

All it probably took, was some extremely sick guy 10,000 years ago, to get a snake bite, and miraculously recover, when everyone else died.

You know, same thing it took for some guy to leave a cheese sandwich out over night, that lead to the discovery of penicillin. Total chance. Yum Yum Yum... I feel great!!!



awakenedwolf said:


> Would you by any chance have the same opinion about acupuncture? Even though it has been used successfully for thousands of years to treat pain in the short term. Even many successful high level athletes get acupuncture regularly due to injuries they get. You seem sort of close minded tbh.


Honestly... what it is today is probably a completely perverted or diluted take on what it was thousands of years ago.

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/theory/japanese/shiraku_bloodletting_acupuncture_technique



> *Japanese Acupuncture Techniques - Shiraku (Bloodletting)*
> 
> *Background Theory:*
> Both the Ling Shu & the Su Wen often mention some form of bloodletting for specific diseases.
> ...


This is where I'm going to go 100% full retard, so don't worry too much about this comment, but has anyone seen the ingredients with some of the oldest medicinal cures. Unicorn horns. They better have meant rhinoceros horns, otherwise we have a serious gap in human history somewhere.

How crazy is this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenotransfusion



> Jean-Baptiste Denis, a French physician, and Paul Emmerez, a surgeon, performed the first documented xenotransfusion on June 15, 1667. The transfusion occurred between a lamb and a 15-year old boy.[1][4] Carotid artery blood from the lamb was introduced to a vein in the patient's inner elbow, and the procedure ultimately resulted in a successful recovery.[4] Denis and Emmerez performed multiple xenotransfusions together. On June 24, 1667, the duo performed a transfusion on a young Swedish nobleman.[1] When they arrived, the patient had already lost his ability to speak and was practically unconscious. Shortly after the transfusion began, the patient was able to speak again. His health was improving until his condition grew progressively worse. A second transfusion took place, but it was unsuccessful, and the patient passed away.


Anyways, I am no hematologist. However, I do wonder if blood letting is an effective way to drain bacteria or virus out of circulation?

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100401155939AAeeIBd



> Yes the body constantly produces blood. If you lose a small amount compensatory mechanisms will kick in and the volume of your blood should return to normal relatively quickly.The replacement of the cellular part of the blood may take a few days. If you lose a lot of blood the body can not compensate for this and goes into a state called hypovolemic shock which can lead to death.
> 
> Some people are unable to clott and so this causes problems as small wounds can cause massive bleeds. Other people may have conditions which mean they produce faulty blood cells or not enough and in this case it may also be a problem.
> 
> ...


I imagine at some point in time the ancient acupuncturists had blood letting down into an art. Depending on the ailment, they probably knew which areas were the best places worth draining from, and so on...

I mean back then, women were probably baby factories, producing upwards of 6 or more children on average, right? Maybe only a handful of those children made it past childhood illnesses? Lots of time for old geezers to experiment with their "magics".

Is it any different today?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Swayze



> In late January 2008, Swayze was diagnosed with Stage IV pancreatic cancer (specifically, intraductal papillary mucinous neoplasm). He traveled to the Stanford University Medical Center for chemotherapy and treatment with the experimental drug Vatalanib, the latter of which doctors hoped would cut off the blood supply to the tumor.[32] On March 5, 2008, a Reuters article reported that Swayze "has a very limited amount of disease, and he appears to be responding well to treatment thus far."[33] Swayze's doctor confirmed that the actor was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, but insisted he was not as close to death as reports suggested. Despite repeated tabloid claims that his death was imminent, Swayze continued to actively pursue his career.[34]


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

MrKappa said:


> Obviously this is a lost art of detoxing the system or drawing out toxins from the skin using specialized herbs and clays.


We have something that works far better. We know how detoxification works. A huge part of medicine counts on being able to not only describe metabolism, but model and predict it. For instance, certain drugs can't be taken orally because they'd be destroyed by gastric juices, bile, or liver enzymes.



> Exactly as we do in modern times with mud baths, and clay masks.


That's really only good for exfoliating and cleaning the skin.



> However, where-ever you look, it has formerly been commercialized and reduced to the selling of sage bundles for the purposes of burning.
> 
> Whatever you thought you knew about ancient medicine, think again, because the arts have been long lost and forgotten.


You mean like the works of Galen or Paracelsus? They were phased out for a reason, because they really just don't work as well as what we have now.



> Too bad really, because back then they had no choice except to perform risky practices on dying subjects resulting in truly effective and revolutionary medicines.
> 
> 3,500+ years of lost science.


Medicine 3500 years ago was incredibly primitive. They had a pretty strong list of herbs, but that was their only real defense. It's easy to forget all of the perks medicine has given us and take it all for granted. You cling to your natural remedies, but when things get life threatening I doubt you'll be sticking to your herbs and needles and get real medical help.

There's people who don't, and they end up dying of really stupid and preventable things like a simple infection that could have been cured with $4 of antibiotics.



> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22288378


Those two herbs are drastically inferior to current medications. Especially since they're not broad-spectrum.



> They knew that stuff back then. Only difference is we are incapable of respecting the intelligence of ancient healing traditions, and instead of looking at a miracle as what it was, which was a medicine practice, we pretend there is no value with the claim.


Most people died you realize yeah? Life expectancy was pretty terrible.



> Jesus miraculously cured children with seizures and derelict lepers. Well, lets face facts, three magicians brought him wealth and valuable medicine. A metaphor, that represents ancient healing practices in the ancient church.


Now you're really starting to lose me.



> As if witches never existed, as if they never practiced unordained healing and magical arts that went against the establishment of the day.


Umm...



> For sure, realigning a back is going to alleviate pain sometimes. How do you fix a dislocated shoulder? With a microscope?


They start with an X-Ray actually. One of those perks of modern medicine.



> Next time you see an ancient symbol of a person holding a snake. Remember...


I know all about the rod of Asclepius.

---

I'm sure you can throw around and say that plenty of people have been allegedly cured by your alternative medicine.

If that's how you want to play, then modern medicine has a track record of curing billions of people.

Oh and you're welcome for not having to worry about smallpox.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

Sacrieur said:


> We have something that works far better. We know how detoxification works. A huge part of medicine counts on being able to not only describe metabolism, but model and predict it. For instance, certain drugs can't be taken orally because they'd be destroyed by gastric juices, bile, or liver enzymes.


Oh really...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/m...people-forget-to-die.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0



> One day in 1976, Moraitis felt short of breath. Climbing stairs was a chore; he had to quit working midday. After X-rays, his doctor concluded that Moraitis had lung cancer. As he recalls, nine other doctors confirmed the diagnosis. They gave him nine months to live. He was in his mid-60s.
> 
> I met Moraitis on Ikaria this past July during one of my visits to explore the extraordinary longevity of the island's residents. For a decade, with support from the National Geographic Society, I've been organizing a study of the places where people live longest.









Sacrieur said:


> I know all about the rod of Asclepius.


No... sorry... none of us do...

This one though... none of us know about that one either...










http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f133/frankincense-vipers-samur-trees-858442/


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

MrKappa said:


> Oh really...
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/m...people-forget-to-die.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> No... sorry... none of us do...


I don't doubt they live longer and healthier lives. This is likely attributed to a more plant-based diet and more significantly, a low stress environment. They're only living a decade longer on average, which is about what you'd expect. These aren't people who sit around stuffing their face full of a large coke and fries with a double supersized cheeseburger while watching some some reality show. Diet and exercise are the number one things people can do for themselves, but what is the medical community supposed to do about it?

We can't even ban diabetes causing sodas without people screaming about how we're taking away their personal liberty to kill themselves. So someone guzzles their liver into oblivion with alcohol then shows up expecting us to fix them. And we can, at least in some capacity. But people don't want that, they want quick fixes to their health and don't blame it on the medical community for their own inability to eat better. We do the best we can with what we have, and it's pretty remarkable that we're able to get people to live seventy, eighty years with all of the crap they dump into themselves on a daily basis.

Doctors have to deal with treating smokers for a lung infection knowing full well they'll be back with cancer. And when they do come back and end up dying, don't pin it on us for not having good enough treatments.

As for the man, maybe the doctors were wrong and he didn't have cancer, a diagnosis based on an X-Ray really doesn't have my confidence. Or maybe he is one of the very lucky few that managed to fight it off without medical intervention. There are people who are immune to certain strains of HIV too.

But eating some vegetables and living low-stress isn't going to magically end cancer. Sure you'll likely get it later and live better, but it can still come around in one of several hundred different and unique forms.

Cancer is frightening, terribly so. One or two success stories doesn't make up for the millions upon millions who end up dying from it. People fork over their life savings to alternative medicines looking for anything to cure it, and it all fails and most of the time, they just end up dying.

As far as cancer goes, our treatment in modern medicine about to the effect of giving someone herbs for an infection. It has some helpful effect, but cancer is really hard to get rid of, and it has nothing to do with anything but biological mechanisms breaking down. And no matter how healthy you are, if you live long enough, you will get cancer and it will kill you.



> This one though... none of us know about that one either...


Yeah and that's the symbol of Hermes, the Cadeceus. Ironically and mistakenly used as a medical insignia en masse due to the ignorance of the US military in the early 1900s.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

^it was no mistake...


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## cryptoboy (Jul 30, 2014)

Acupuncture is a good method of back pain, but there are many different ways to treat sciatica. My wife and I have back pain, but through some special exercises and regular exercise were able to fight sciatica. I wrote a nice article on the topic how to cure sciatica naturally without drugs or acupuncture.

sorry for bad english!


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