# Do Benzos Cause Brain Damage?



## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

I have been looking into this Benzo and Brain Damage thing I wonder if my Tinnitus and brain fog might be caused buy the Benzos?
http://www.benzo.org.uk/problem.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_term_effects_of_benzodiazepines
Approximately half of patients attending mental health services for conditions including anxiety disorders such as panic disorder or social phobia may be the result of alcohol or benzodiazepine dependence. Sometimes anxiety disorders pre-existed alcohol or benzodiazepine dependence but the alcohol or benzodiazepine dependence often act to keep the anxiety disorders going and often progressively making them worse. Many people who are addicted to alcohol or prescribed benzodiazepines when it is explained to them they have a choice between ongoing ill mental health or quitting and recovering from their symptoms decide on quitting alcohol and or their benzodiazepines. It was noted that every individual has an individual sensitivity level to alcohol or sedative hypnotic drugs and what one person can tolerate without ill health another will suffer very ill health and that even moderate drinking can cause rebound anxiety syndromes and sleep disorders. A person who is suffering the toxic effects of alcohol or benzodiazepines will not benefit from other therapies or medications as they do not address the root cause of the symptoms. Recovery from benzodiazepine dependence tends to take a lot longer than recovery from alcohol but people can regain their previous good health.[24] A review of the literature regarding benzodiazepine hypnotic drugs concluded that these drugs caused an unjustifiable risk to the individual and to public health. The risks include dependence, accidents and other adverse effects. Gradual discontinuation of hypnotics leads to improved health without worsening of sleep.[25]


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## gordonjohnson008 (Nov 2, 2008)

How long have you been taking it, do you take it every day, and what dosage?


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

gordonjohnson008 said:


> How long have you been taking it, do you take it every day, and what dosage?


I have been taking Alprazolam for about 7 months approximately 1 mg almost every day sometimes I take a bit more other times I take only 0.5mg at night it helps me get to sleep...


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> A person who is suffering the toxic effects of alcohol or benzodiazepines...


Larger amounts of Alcohol/Acetaldehyde (taken over longer periods of time) are very toxic to the human body/brain, but benzodiazepines have very low toxicity, that's a fact. And I wouldn't call protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal "brain damage". If there is no significant damage shown in CT/MRI then where is this "brain damage"?!?

Really abusing very large amounts of shortacting benzos (eg. flunitrazepam) for years like a junkie is a different story, but I doubt taking eg. 4-6mg Klonopin as prescribed for months-years and then very slowly tappering off will cause damage to the CNS.


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

Medline said:


> Larger amounts of Alcohol/Acetaldehyde are very toxic to the human body/brain, but benzodiazepines have very low toxicity, that's a fact. And I wouldn't call protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal "brain damage". If there is no significant damage shown in CT/MRI then where is this "brain damage"?!?
> 
> Really abusing very large amounts of shortacting benzos for years like a junkie is a different story, but I really doubt taking eg. 4-6mg Klonopin as prescribed for months-years and then very slowly tappering off will cause damage to the CNS.


Professor Ashton tried to acquire funding to perform scans using more detailed scanning technologies such as PET scans and MRI scans but was turned down for research funding. At present the question of whether benzodiazepines cause structural or functional brain damage remains unanswered definitively.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Yes, and because of that it's wrong to say benzos cause brain damage, without being able to proof it.


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

Medline said:


> Yes, and because of that it's wrong to say benzos cause brain damage, without being able to proof it.


Why do so many people get such severe withdrawal syndromes after taking prescribed dosage
there must be something going on with there Gaba receptors,


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Of course they get severe withdrawal symptoms if they took benzos for a longer period of time and quit cold turkey or taper down too fast. The GABA-A receptors downregulate and other stuff happens because of homeostasis. Some people get protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal (which might be helped via flumazenil infusions), but this is no indication of brain damage. SSRI users also get so called "discontinuation syndromes", some which last for months or longer, but does that mean Prozac destroyed their brains irreversibly? I don't think so.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Prof. C. Heather Ashton should be burned at the stake like the witch she is. That old bag had cause untold misery and should pay for her sins. She's effectively all but banned benzos in the UK and one can only hope she croaks before she can remove benzos entirely from the face of the earth.

She needs no proof as she'd turned her anti-benzo movement into a religion. All they need is faith.

I'm so sick and tired of holier-than-thou busy bodies who "know what's best" for us.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

UltraShy said:


> Prof. C. Heather Ashton should be burned at the stake like the witch she is. That old bag had cause untold misery and should pay for her sins. She's effectively all but banned benzos in the UK and one can only hope she croaks before she can remove benzos entirely from the face of the earth.
> 
> She needs no proof as she'd turned her anti-benzo movement into a religion. All they need is faith.
> 
> I'm so sick and tired of holier-than-thou busy bodies who "know what's best" for us.


I think it's good they're "all but banned" for treating SA long-term. Benzos really should only be considered after failed trials of an SSRI, SNRI, mirtazapine (+ other newer antidepressants), MAOI, beta-blocker, and more. Their dose-escalating, amnestic, cognitive-dulling effects are simply not acceptable in my opinion when there are so many other effective drugs out there.

Even when a purely anxiolytic effect is required, I think kava beats benzos by a million miles -- it's not addictive, forms no tolerance, doesn't impair cognition at therapeutic doses, and actually brightens mood rather than depressing it. If people would actually read the available research, they'd see hepatotoxicity is likely to be a result of non-root preparations, as evidenced by kava being drunk the traditional way for centuries without event. Unfortunately our world is populated with morons and greedy pharmaceutical corporations.

The main problem with kava is its difficulty of use and low potency. The capsules often contain absolutely tiny amounts of kavalactones (people sometimes take 10+ capsules for effects), and the root is usually so weak you have to use 1/4-1/2 a bag for decent effects.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Prof. Ashton hates Benzodiazepines more than Osama bin Laden. That's unhealthy - IMHO after all these years of exhausting anti-benzo-propaganda she should settle back, drink a good glass of red wine and take some Xanax.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Medline said:


> Prof. Ashton hates Benzodiazepines more than Osama bin Laden. That's unhealthy - IMHO after all these years of exhausting anti-benzo-propaganda she should settle back, drink a good glass of red wine and take some Xanax.


Thanks for bringing up the issue of wine. The anti-benzo folks remind me quite a bit of the Prohibitionists who reined supreme in America from 1920-1933 and failed miserably -- just as they failed miserably in Canada and numerous other European nations that tried it.

Both were zealots who loved to tell everyone else how to live their lives. When somebody sticks their nose in your business you should chop it off -- reminds them where not to stick it again.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> I think it's good they're "all but banned" for treating SA long-term.


In my view it doesn't matter what you think on this matter. Adults should be free to make their own choices even if you think their choices are stupid mistakes. To take away their freedom of choice and substitute your own suggests that you are somehow more qualified to choose for them.

I don't believe there is anyone more qualified to choose what you put in your body than you and I would never dare to attempt to substitute my own judgment for your own. Unfortunately, it appears you're not willing to allow me the same degree of personal autonomy. I don't need nor want a nanny.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> The main problem with kava is its difficulty of use and low potency. The capsules often contain absolutely tiny amounts of kavalactones (people sometimes take 10+ capsules for effects), and the root is usually so weak you have to use 1/4-1/2 a bag for decent effects.


Do you have any suggestion on how one get around this problem? Or is there no way around it?

How many doses a day would be required for one with SEVERE anxiety? You're already talking about 10+ capsules for effects? So are we talking about downing a whole economy-sized bottle per day?:stu


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

UltraShy said:


> In my view it doesn't matter what you think on this matter. Adults should be free to make their own choices even if you think their choices are stupid mistakes. To take away their freedom of choice and substitute your own suggests that you are somehow more qualified to choose for them.


Let me clarify: I believe it's good they are highly discouraged to be prescribed for anxiety disorders by qualified medical professionals. I don't think it should be illegal to source them yourself, but that's a different story. It's not about prohibition, it's about psych docs doing the right thing for us.

Why? Because there are many better options for SA and only a terrible psychiatrist would pick benzos over them unless there was no other choice. Case in point: Nardil is proven as effective as Xanax.



> I don't believe there is anyone more qualified to choose what you put in your body than you and I would never dare to attempt to substitute my own judgment for your own. Unfortunately, it appears you're not willing to allow me the same degree of personal autonomy. I don't need nor want a nanny.


Psychiatrists that have gone to university and got a degree in medicine; they are more qualified than you, and it is their job to help you overcome your problems without compromising other areas of physical/mental health, social functioning, etc. They would be doing patients a disservice if benzos were a first, or even second-line treatment.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

If antidepressants fail several times, longterm Klonopin treatment can be considered for the therapy of generalized social anxiety disorder IMHO. In the past I have been prescribed a constant dose of Klonopin for many months and found no "dose-escalating, amnestic or cognitive-dulling" effects. My anxiety was reduced by 80%, I made my exams and felt quite normal; then instead of tappering off I used Phenobarbital.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Medline said:


> I have been prescribed a constant dose of Klonopin for many months and found no "dose-escalating, amnestic or cognitive-dulling" effects.


For me, the dose-escalation took about 6 months to surface.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I took 8mg for 9 months without any need for more, but you probably started with a lower dose.


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

If it works, then it works. That's all I care about anymore.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Well, half a bottle of vodka works too against SA, but I wouldn't recommend it longterm.


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

Medline said:


> Well, half a bottle of vodka works too against SA, but I wouldn't recommend it longterm.


Ok, if it works within reason, then it works :b


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Medline said:


> I took 8mg for 9 months without any need for more, but you probably started with a lower dose.


You say nothing about what you take now. Does this mean you're on no meds? Has your SA subsided? What's going on now? How you done therapy to make it go away? Did it just go away on it's own? What happened?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I still take Lexapro 20mg, low dose Selegiline and Klonopin as needed, but I plan to be med-free within the next few months. Therapy has never done anything for me by the way.


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

I understand that benzos do not reduce all brain activity equally but reduce some activity more than others. My question is, why do so many people benefit from having their brain activity turned down?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Because it was overactive in that areas in people with anxiety disorders.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> Psychiatrists that have gone to university and got a degree in medicine; they are more qualified than you, and it is their job to help you overcome your problems without compromising other areas of physical/mental health, social functioning, etc. They would be doing patients a disservice if benzos were a first, or even second-line treatment.


You're fairly new around here so you most likely haven't yet heard my rant about doctors. They are, for the most part, costly road blocks who stand between me and the drugs I want.

In two days I turn 36 -- that makes me an adult twice over -- and I do not at all appreciate having to beg for pills. I'm a grown man and I should NEVER have to ask anybody what I may put into my body. My body, my choice (it's almost as if some other cause uses that same slogan).

Frankly, I don't even want benzos. They are sissy junk. How am I ever supposed to get a decent drug when even the trash is too dangerous for us to have? I'm sick & tired of living in a world where it's all about safety and efficacy be damned. I've likened doctors to morons who try to chop down a tree with a butter knife because it's perfectly safe. Not at all effective, but rest assured that nobody will get hurt. Now a logger would simply get out a chainsaw and have the tree down quite rapidly. Of course, that chainsaw could result in serious injury or death, but you'll note that it's very highly efficacious in tree removal unlike them butter knives that are so very safe yet so totally ineffective. This is much like how we play with psych meds that are so very safe and so very useless. I'm sick of a world with 'sleeping pills' that "may cause drowsiness" that after 3 hours of taking a fistful of them and still being as alert as humanly possible you sort of think "or maybe not". I'm sick of 'mind-altering' meds that don't alter my mind in any positive way or in any way that is more than trivial.

I'm old enough & smart enough to know that the most powerful & effective drugs almost always are also the most addictive and most potentially fatal. My life has been decades of hell on earth. Do you seriously think that addiction scares me? It doesn't. If there was a syringe of pharmaceutical grade heroin sitting before me I'd give it a try to see if it made me feel better. If there were a line of pure coke on a mirror before me I'd give it a try to see if it made me feel better.

I can only wonder how my social functioning could be further compromised. Keep in mind that I graduated with honors with a degree in finance in 1995, yet I've never worked at any real job ever. I've never even filled out an application nor submitted a resume. In fact, I've never even made a resume. My social functioning is all but non-existent, so there really is nothing to lose when one has already lost everything.

You're 17, meaning that I've literally done nothing since you were 3. Doesn't it blow your mind to think that? And realistically, I never will do anything. Could the time I have left on this earth, however long it may be, be in some drug-induced state of semi-happiness instead of the pure hell that I've known since day one? Is that asking too much?

People tell me to go to my psychiatrist and try this drug and that drug. Problem: I suffer from EXTREME SA and going to see him is a living hell for me. My psychiatrist is a really nice guy and it's hard to imagine how a doctor could be nicer, yet it's still an extreme ordeal for me. Contact me privately if you wish to know the thoughts I had before my last couple of visits. I nearly didn't go due to fear. I suspect I'm not the only one to feel this way. I suspect there are others who lurk on SAS never posting due to fear who feel the same way and never get any treatment at all.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Medline said:


> I still take Lexapro 20mg, low dose Selegiline and Klonopin as needed, but I plan to be med-free within the next few months. Therapy has never done anything for me by the way.


Do you have any theories on why therapy didn't work in your case? Have any statistics on how often therapy is not effective?

How is it that you're going to be able to go med free in a few months? Will your SA be gone or will you have learned how to deal with it? I'm asking because this is a totally foreign concept to me. I've had extreme SA forever. It's always there, so it's hard for me to fathom it coming on and then going away when to me it's a chronic problem. How long has SA been an issue for you? And how old are you?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> Do you have any theories on why therapy didn't work in your case? Have any statistics on how often therapy is not effective?
> 
> How is it that you're going to be able to go med free in a few months? Will your SA be gone or will you have learned how to deal with it? I'm asking because this is a totally foreign concept to me. I've had extreme SA forever. It's always there, so it's hard for me to fathom it coming on and then going away when to me it's a chronic problem. How long has SA been an issue for you? And how old are you?


I think CBT can be quite effective at removing symptoms of SA, but I don't believe it is a cure, especially for severe cases. I just did talk therapy by the way, a waste of money in my case.

I made major improvements in the last half year and greatly improved my social skills. I did this while being under the influence of substances like GHB and others, but I still have these skills altough I'm just taking an SSRI (which never did much to me), low dose Selegiline (mainly for anti-aging purpose) and some Klonopin as needed for very stressful events. I will begin to taper down the Lexapro soon.

As a child I was a little bit shy, retrospective I had SA since I was 13 or 14, now I am 24.

@UltraShy: You are the ideal candidate for an MAOI like Nardil or Parnate. They could change your life forever

http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=12342
http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=11909


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

> I'm sick of 'mind-altering' meds that don't alter my mind in any positive way or in any way that is more than trivial.


When I was dependent on benzos, pretty much zero sleeping pills had any effect on me apart from more benzos, nor did any anxiolytic except another benzo do anything for anxiety. These drugs now affect me as they should.

I believe benzos alter brain function in such a fundamental way that it overrides many other medications that are normally pretty potent.



UltraShy said:


> People tell me to go to my psychiatrist and try this drug and that drug. Problem: I suffer from EXTREME SA and going to see him is a living hell for me. My psychiatrist is a really nice guy and it's hard to imagine how a doctor could be nicer, yet it's still an extreme ordeal for me. Contact me privately if you wish to know the thoughts I had before my last couple of visits. I nearly didn't go due to fear. I suspect I'm not the only one to feel this way. I suspect there are others who lurk on SAS never posting due to fear who feel the same way and never get any treatment at all.


That's quite a dilemma, but I understand having that level of SA from my days of benzo withdrawal. Couldn't you have a few beers before going or something?

I really think you should give different meds a try. Nardil is awesome, and my current favourite combo is mirtazapine + sertraline + bupropion. I'd *much* prefer the effects of these drugs than benzos. Shifts your focus off simply being unnecessarily calm about everything, and more onto enjoying yourself and achieving stuff in life.

If you insist on benzos, there are tons of internet sources for them. If you can't face going to the doctor, a nice big pack of 2mg clonazepams is only a click away.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

He get's his scripts for 10mg Xanax / day since years if I remember correctly (and he has quite a stockpile), so why ordering over the internet? Also he prefers Xanax over Klonopin AFAIK. He should try MAOIs...


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Medline said:


> He get's his scripts for 10mg Xanax / day since years if I remember correctly, so why ordering over the internet?


For if the doctor won't prescribe higher doses.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Does he want a higher dose? Where should/would this end?


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Medline said:


> Does he want a higher dose? Where should/would this end?


Well, I know I'm not my doctors #1 Xanax-muncher as that award goes to some panic patient that he's had on 12 mg daily for years.

Given the effect 10 mg has on me, if we assume the effect to be linear, then perhaps a 100 mg a day might just cut it. Or perhaps we could acknowledge that anti-anxiety drugs were not first introduced in 1960 and try something other than a benzo even if they are "old-fashioned", "out-of-style", more toxic than benzos in OD. This more toxic in OD argument is really a big pile of BS. If I was looking to end my life, I wouldn't go to a doc looking for drugs to make my life better and thus worth living. I already owns the means to die. I'd like to find the means to live.

Everybody assumes that I've developed a tolerance to benzos over the years. This is not that case and is what I've told everyone who's ever brought up that issue on this forum. Benzos have NEVER had any profound nor even significant effect on me.

Most people naturally assume that I probably started out at like 2 mg and and it just got more and more to get the same effect. After all, that's pretty much the standard story with benzos and so many other drugs so I guess I can't really blame them for making such assumptions in the absence of an alternative explanation. I ended up on such a high dose because lower doses didn't work, so we tried a higher dose and that didn't work, so I hit the limit my GP was willing to use so I went to a psychiatrist who was willing to go far further with benzos. He put me on 8 mg the first time I saw him -- effectively doubling my benzos from the 40 mg of Valium my GP had been giving me. A year later he upped it to 10 mg and it's been at that level since the fall of 2004.


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## bowlingpins (Oct 18, 2008)

Ultrashy, has the Xanax become less effective since you were put on 10mg in 2004?


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

bowlingpins said:


> Ultrashy, has the Xanax become less effective since you were put on 10mg in 2004?


Hard to say. It was never anything more than marginally effective to start with. We're talking about such tiny units of efficacy that it's hard to measure.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

UltraShy said:


> Hard to say. It was never anything more than marginally effective to start with. We're talking about such tiny units of efficacy that it's hard to measure.


Do you experience the side-effects such as sedation and amnesia to any extent?


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> Do you experience the side-effects such as sedation and amnesia to any extent?


Absolutely none. The fact that I suffer from chronic insomnia should give you some idea of how "severe" the Xanax sedation is.

As for amnesia there is absolutely none. My mind is as sharp as it ever was, not that it was ever perfect, but it's no worse than it was a decade ago when I didn't even know what a benzo was and I'd say it seems to be about as good as any normal mind. I personally have never experienced any event that could be characterized as amnesia -- I've never blacked out and wondered "what the hell happened?" the way many college kids are familiar with from excessive drinking. Even during my heaviest drinking binges I was fully aware to enjoy the vomiting & misery -- exactly the times you wish you had forgotten.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

What happens when you stop taking the Xannies for a day or two? Sorry for all the questions but this is strange stuff. You must have like zero GABA receptors or something...

You could try taking L-theanine with the Xanax to boost GABA levels, and/or L-glutamine. I've heard these both can be significantly psychoactive with benzos.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> What happens when you stop taking the Xannies for a day or two?


Seizures? Delirium? ICU? Should he try it out for some days to know it for sure? Why not play Russian Roulette, it's more fun, isn't it?


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Medline said:


> Seizures? Delirium? ICU? Should he try it out for some days to know it for sure? Why not play Russian Roulette, it's more fun, isn't it?


Nah I'm not suggesting to try it, I'm asking if he has done in the past. I just thought the withdrawal severity would indicate how much Xanax is actually reaching the brain and activating receptors. Could reveal an ADME problem, or something.


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

Of all the medications I have tried the only ones that worked for SA were clonazepam and alprazolam the SSRI were a total disaster to many side effects I can't understand how people can stay on them for years ? 
Don't get me wrong I have nothing against people being on them if it works for them all the better...
I have to agree with UltraShy the best medications are all illegal or out of reach for most people.
They say that GHB is the perfect antidepressant and very good for social phobia they made it illegal to ... you could buy it in health food stores in the 1980's go figure?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I can assure you that GHB is not the perfect antidepressant, I've tried it out. The body/brain adapts very fast to it's effects and it can cause psychological and physiological dependence very fast.



> I have to agree with UltraShy the best medications are all illegal or out of reach for most people.


If you could self-medicate your SA or depression with unlimited supplies of Oxycontin / Fentanyl / Desoxyn / Secobarbital do you really think this story would have a happy end? Sounds a "little" bit naive to me...


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

BradPit said:


> Of all the medications I have tried the only ones that worked for SA were clonazepam and alprazolam the SSRI were a total disaster to many side effects I can't understand how people can stay on them for years ?
> Don't get me wrong I have nothing against people being on them if it works for them all the better...
> I have to agree with UltraShy the best medications are all illegal or out of reach for most people.
> They say that GHB is the perfect antidepressant and very good for social phobia they made it illegal to ... you could buy it in health food stores in the 1980's go figure?


GHB is very effective, but that website calling it the "perfect antidepressant" is really naive. If tolerance, cognitive impairment and rebound psychosis didn't happen, then it'd be a great antidepressant. Unfortunately they do, as those who became dependent on G found out the hard way.

It might sound like I'm anti-GHB, but I totally love it . It's a great drug to have in your arsenal as an alcohol replacement -- within 30 minutes of dosing, a nice wave of relaxation, euphoria, sexuality and social drive emerges. Fear evaporates and you actually want to do the things you dread, and do them well. I'm staying off drugs for a long while now though.


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

euphoria said:


> GHB is very effective, but that website calling it the "perfect antidepressant" is really naive. If tolerance, cognitive impairment and rebound psychosis didn't happen, then it'd be a great antidepressant. Unfortunately they do, as those who became dependent on G found out the hard way.
> 
> It might sound like I'm anti-GHB, but I totally love it . It's a great drug to have in your arsenal as an alcohol replacement -- within 30 minutes of dosing, a nice wave of relaxation, euphoria, sexuality and social drive emerges. Fear evaporates and you actually want to do the things you dread, and do them well. I'm staying off drugs for a long while now though.


That's what I mean what antidepressant gives you that euphoria, sexuality and social drive
that you get from GHB maybe stimulants or opioid's ?
If they were legal you could take one for each day of the week that way you would probably never build tolerance to one drug ... guess I am not being very realistic here just dreaming with my eyes open ...LOL


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

BradPit said:


> That's what I mean what antidepressant gives you that euphoria, sexuality and social drive
> that you get from GHB maybe stimulants or opioid's ?
> If they were legal you could take one for each day of the week that way you would probably never build tolerance to one drug ... guess I am not being very realistic here just dreaming with my eyes open ...LOL


In fact it is perfectly possible to feel incredibly euphoric every day for the rest of your life, if we can find sustainable ways of overcoming the brain's tendency towards counterbalancing any excessive feelings of euphoria with dysphoria through receptor regulation and other mechanisms. I mean, the brain is capable of producing "euphoria signals" to our pleasure-centres indefinitely, as proven by the brain electrode stuff. We can, in theory, all feel like we've taken a combination of heroin + ecstasy + GHB 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Out of the current stock of antidepressants, I would say a combination of mirtazapine + sertraline + bupropion would get you feeling pretty decent without much tolerance. MAOIs too are another good option.

You could also take a look at the ADHD drugs that affect dopamine. These include methylphenidate and amphetamine, though the latter has some known neurotoxicity issues. It's always a good idea to keep amino acids, vitamins and other supplements on hand with meds like these known to cause a "crash". Just watch out for potentiating them too much with the aminos. Really though, anyone interested in sustaining a better than normal mood needs a supplement regimen regardless of healing crashes.

Opioids can be considered if we can find a way to block the formation of tolerance, as has been done with drugs such as ketamine, magnesium, proglumide and some other stuff I've forgotten. We are fast learning that tolerance and dependency aren't as linear as we thought with various different receptors, and can sometimes be prevented altogether. There is actually a delta-opioid agonist in clinical trials right now for anxiety.

We also have enkephalinase inhibitors, which boost enkephalin (natural opioid) levels without dependency or tolerance.

For sustainable euphoria I refer you to David Pearce's biopsychiatry.com.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> What happens when you stop taking the Xannies for a day or two?


I've never stopped Xanax use for more than about 24 hours in about 3 years. I stopped for 24 hours after chugging half a liter of rum as rapidly as I could and then going to bed while I could still stand up. Woke up a few hour later, but didn't have the strength to get out of bed, so I simply barfed all over the bed. I felt so miserable the next day and barfed up anything anyhow. I didn't think about Xanax and I couldn't physically consume a pill as I pretty much instantly sent any input in reverse.

Must have some GABA receptors as I can certainly get drunk. Doesn't that take GABA? And it doesn't take any unusual amount of alcohol to intoxicate me. I will never win any drinking games.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

It could take decades until humans find ways to overcome the "brain's tendency towards counterbalancing any excessive (positive) feelings". Today's drugs are very primitive.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Madeline said:


> If you could self-medicate your SA or depression with unlimited supplies of OxyContin / Fontanel / Desoxyn / Suborbital do you really think this story would have a happy end? Sounds a "little" bit naive to me...


I gather you're saying this eventually ends in death. OK, you're right.

Every life ends in death. As soon as you're born you're dying.

Since I have minimal quality of life perhaps I'd be willing to trade some quantity for quality. None of us know how long we will be here. My grandfather was dead of a brain tumor by the age of 38. My brother died of a heart attack at 45. I'll be 36 in two days. How long do I have left? Do I have days or decades? And is 50 more years really better than 5 more if those 50 are anything like the last 36?

Who should get to decide how I get to live my life? The DEA that has me locked safely in a prison of misery?


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

UltraShy said:


> Must have some GABA receptors as I can certainly get drunk. Doesn't that take GABA? And it doesn't take any unusual amount of alcohol to intoxicate me. I will never win any drinking games.


If alcohol affects you but not benzos, maybe you should ask for a barbiturate (they act on the same receptors as alcohol).



> It could take decades until humans find ways to overcome the "brain's tendency towards counterbalancing any excessive (positive) feelings". Today's drugs are very primitive.


True, but there is a lot of promising research going on that's already yielded results. For example, if you had a giant stockpile of oxycodone and ketamine, research suggests you could retain the euphoria you get on day 1 indefinitely, or at least for a lot longer than without ketamine.



> Who should get to decide how I get to live my life? The DEA that has me locked safely in a prison of misery?


What drugs are you being denied due to illegality?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> Who should get to decide how I get to live my life? The DEA that has me locked safely in a prison of misery?


You have not tried MAOIs. It's completely logical to try them first before going over to controlled substances. Even or especially because you are highly treatment resistant they are a very good choice. I guess you have a 50:50 chance that Nardil or Parnate significantly improve your quality of life:

http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=12342
http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=11909



> If alcohol affects you but not benzos, maybe you should ask for a barbiturate (they act on the same receptors as alcohol).


Yeah, ask for a time machine first. The only barbiturate he might get today is Phenobarbital to get off his benzos. Barbiturates act at the GABA-A receptors as Benzos do just via a different (more direct) mechanism. Alcohol influences (nearly) every neurotransmitter system by the way.


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

Is pheno any less anxiolytic than the shorter-acting barbs?


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## Lateralus (Oct 28, 2007)

I have read UltraShy's arguments and I must say that I agree. We are adults, we can make our own choices.

That reminds me, just today my grandpa got denied for a surgery he's been waiting on for weeks. They put him through test after test, rescheduled the surgery three times, and finally today when he was supposed to have it the anesthesioloist said it was too risky. He had a 50% chance of making it through, and was not permitted to decide for himself. Now at his age (88 years), and living with constant pain in his legs, why is he not allowed to take that risk if he wants to? From his point of view, he had a 50% chance of living without constant pain every day. I guess at 88 he still isn't old enough to make his own decisions.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> Is pheno any less anxiolytic than the shorter-acting barbs?


I don't know, but the short-acting barbiturates should be a lot more fun. Ask Elvis.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Lateralus said:


> That reminds me, just today my grandpa got denied for a surgery he's been waiting on for weeks. They put him through test after test, rescheduled the surgery three times, and finally today when he was supposed to have it the anesthesioloist said it was too risky. He had a 50% chance of making it through, and was not permitted to decide for himself. Now at his age (88 years), and living with constant pain in his legs, why is he not allowed to take that risk if he wants to? From his point of view, he had a 50% chance of living without constant pain every day. I guess at 88 he still isn't old enough to make his own decisions.


You have NHS in Canada, right? It could be because they have limited funding and are encouraged not to spend it on elderly cases where recovery is to some extent unlikely. Also, they probably consider it better to take whatever time he has left rather than risk it.

I bet if you went private, you'd get the surgery done.

^ Obviously I have no idea about his situation, but that's my guess.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> What drugs are you being denied due to illegality?


Everything the DEA has listed as Schedule I.

Then there are all the Schedule II drugs that are technically legal, but little or no possibility of getting them. These would include all fast-acting barbs, cocaine, opioids, amphetamines, etc...

Then there is GHB which has the special status of being the only drug to be listed on two schedules at the same time -- both I & III.

Then one is still limited as to how much drugs one can get. If I found that 100 Valium tablets a day made me feel better, do you think any doctor would write me a script for that?

I most certainly do not live in the Land Of The Free. A Free Man doesn't have to beg or even ask permission to exercise his most fundamental rights!


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

And you think if you had unlimited supply of Schedule I and II drugs you had a better quality of life? These are very primitive drugs, today there is no shortcut to happiness - because of homeostasis. These substances borrow you something for a limited amount of time, but they want and will get it all back with interest and compound interest!


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> I really think you should give different meds a try. Nardil is awesome, and my current favourite combo is mirtazapine + sertraline + bupropion. I'd *much* prefer the effects of these drugs than benzos. Shifts your focus off simply being unnecessarily calm about everything, and more onto enjoying yourself and achieving stuff in life.


I tried Zoloft in the past and I really beat that dead horse. I tried it for a full 13 weeks, going up to 300 mg for a final month of that trial and other than killing sex drive it had no effect on me. Clinical trials don't even last any longer, start at 100 mg as I did nor get to 200 mg within a week nor go to 300 mg so I went above and beyond to see if it would work and it did not. Even stopping Zoloft cold turkey failed to produce withdrawal effects (which I did intentionally to prove it does nothing to me). I tried Wellbutrin, which even at 450 mg does nothing to me, other than having an appetite suppressant effect which is nice, but it sure doesn't help in terms of being a psych med.

As for Remeron, I've only tried that at low dose as a sleep aid. Doesn't sedate me.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

UltraShy said:


> Everything the DEA has listed as Schedule I.
> 
> Then there are all the Schedule II drugs that are technically legal, but little or no possibility of getting them. These would include all fast-acting barbs, cocaine, opioids, amphetamines, etc...
> 
> Then there is GHB which has the special status of being the only drug to be listed on two schedules at the same time -- both I & III.


If you use most of those drugs on anything but an occasional, recreational basis, you will come to regret it. I think the only one you listed that's viable for long-term use is amphetamine, although it has neurotoxicity problems and causes a horrific crash in many users.

There are quite a few people on this board prescribed Adderall. I guess that's just for ADHD though.

For a doctor to prescribe those drugs in their current form would be pretty irresponsible. If you were put on, say, OxyContin, where would that lead? You'd have to keep upping the dose over months/years until you're literally unable to afford any higher dosage, at which point the only option would be an abrupt withdrawal or slow taper. Either way, you pay back the "interest" Medline said about. You have zero net gain on happiness overall.

I still think you should try an MAOI before concluding that unsustainable rec. drugs are the only thing that's gonna help. Or Remeron + SSRI + Wellbutrin, all together.

Edit: you may need to come off benzos before trialling new meds. I read they reduce various neurotransmitters, including serotonin, so it isn't a surprise that happened.

What dose of Remeron did you try? 15mg is pretty weak; some inpatients go up to like 100mg+. That rocknroll714 dude tried 90mg once and said effects were awesome.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I think he should get on an MAOI now and if it helps enough very slowly taper down his Benzo use via Valium.


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## Jrock (Dec 16, 2008)

Medline said:


> I think he should get on an MAOI now and if it helps enough very slowly taper down his Benzo use via Valium.


Why Valium? Does it matter the benzo to taper down with?


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## Jrock (Dec 16, 2008)

euphoria said:


> I bet if you went private, you'd get the surgery done.


Whats the health care system like in the UK? I was under the impression that it was Universal health care as well


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> Why Valium? Does it matter the benzo to taper down with?


Of course, the longer the half-life and duration of action of the benzo the better. Librium would be ok too.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Jrock said:


> Whats the health care system like in the UK? I was under the impression that it was Universal health care as well


It is, yes. It's not bad I suppose, but meds are a lot more controlled with NHS psychiatrists than if you pay for the service.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

euphoria said:


> It is, yes. It's not bad I suppose, but meds are a lot more controlled with NHS psychiatrists than if you pay for the service.


And do you suspect the guys who make the rules about the NHS in the UK are rich enough to afford private doctors? You know, the kind who make house calls 24/7 and know how to say things like "What would you like me to prescribe you, Sir?" I imagine they get most polite & cooperative when a visit ends with a nice big check and no paperwork to bother with.

It must be nice making rules that you'll never have to actually follow like the rest of the nation.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

rocknroll714 said:


> For some it may be irreversible though, especially at the ridiculous dosages I hear some people on like 20 mg of klonopin per day. That's just insane and I'd definitely be concerned at that level of downregulation.


Who do you hear of that's on 20 mg of Klonopin daily? I've never found anybody on SAS that even came close to that. I've never even found anybody on SAS that got into the double digits of Klonopin on SAS. That kind of dose would be used for epilepsy and hasn't likely been used since the creation of newer anticonvulsants before you were born.


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## gordonjohnson008 (Nov 2, 2008)

"Brain Damage" is a nebulous concept. You can definite as physical neural atrophy, or you can define it as functional impairment. Either way: *Yes,* benzos cause brain damage.

Over time, benzos caused increased ventricle radius and decreased brain mass. This is also seen in alcoholism.

Benzos also cause memory impairment while on the drug. There isn't a lot of data around on long-term studies on subjects who took benzos for many years and then quit. The data isn't really there. Since there aren't a lot of double-blind studies to look at, you can look at individual cases here. If you're good with a search engine, you can find lots of reports from individuals who have used benzos for many years. In my personal experience, it's disturbing how many reports I've read noting real cognitive decay after decades of daily benzo usage.

As a benzo user myself, it's definitely clear to me that benzos cause brain damage. But, so can alcohol, and that doesn't seem to stop society from drinking. In fact, I love drinking, and I have a few too many brain cells anyways.

What's unclear to me is if per-needed benzo usage (maybe 2 times per week) also causes brain damage.


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## gordonjohnson008 (Nov 2, 2008)

Sorry for the double-post. I have to add, there are anomalies... some people whose memory isn't really affected by long-term benzo use. I expect these people to also report that benzos did not really affect their short-term memory while on the benzos.

I know that benzos damage my short-term memory. When you're trying to get an engineering degree, you definitely notice when your memory is shot versus when it's normal. My memory capacity on benzos is approximately equivalent to my memory capacity while drunk.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

gordonjohnson008 said:


> As a benzo user myself, it's definitely clear to me that benzos cause brain damage. But, so can alcohol, and that doesn't seem to stop society from drinking. In fact, I love drinking, and I have a few too many brain cells anyways.
> 
> What's unclear to me is if per-needed benzo usage (maybe 2 times per week) also causes brain damage.


But you'd need to do a scientifically valid study to prove that benzos are what's actually causing the brain damage.

If you're taking lots of benzos for decades this would suggest that there is some significant mental illness at work there that explains why doctors keep giving you these drugs in such doses for so many years. What effect does having severe anxiety for decades have on patients?

And how would you even run a controlled study on humans that meets any ethical (or practical guidelines) in which you have one group getting benzos by the truckload for 30 years and another getting sugar pills for a few decades? Clearly this can't be done. The closest you could do is breed nervous rats & monkeys and see how they do. Or I guess have normal rats and monkeys and simply scare the hell out of them for decades (I'm sure PETA would be thrilled with that).


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Freesix88 said:


> Valium hit the market on 1960(and it's still one of the best drugs to threat SA ironically).
> We would know if it had bad longterm effects. There aren't any.


Actually, it was 1963 for Valium, but your brain was likely rotted by all those benzos, while mine is just fine on 10 mg of Xanax a day.:lol Librium hit the market as the first benzo in 1960.

I've often made the same argument that all the negatives of benzos are surely known by now, after nearly half a century of use. Especially when you consider that they've been some of the most widely used prescription drugs in the history of mankind. Valium was the #1 prescription drug of the 1970s with use peaking in I believe 1978.


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

Hope you guys are right about the brain damage ... check this documentary out about 
.. Ativan (lorazepam)


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