# Girls would you date a rapist?



## springbreeze1

How about a man who paid sex with prison time?

Let's assume that he's presumably reformed.

I think there are many live examples of famous rapists who seemingly hadn't any trouble getting dates.

Of course if you are famous you get away with lot of things. The reason they became rapist may be that they thought they were entitled to have any women.

What about ordinary people?

Edit: It's important to point out I'm not asking this question for myself.


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## AllTheSame

Yeah way to keep it classy, Springbreeze.

*looks at thread title in disbelief
*looks at name of thread starter
*looks at thread title
*looks at name of thread starter

*is not at all surprised


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## TheInvisibleHand

Yeah they would definitely date him if he is rich , confident and decent looking .


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## springbreeze1

If you are a guy, pls don't make condescending comments about what women would do. It's not my intention and I consider it trolling.


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## Virgo

No, I definitely wouldn't. Even if he was reformed or whatever. That's completely out of the question.


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## Comeatmebro

No sane woman would ever date such a scumbag loser


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## Red October

It seems that some might

http://www.meet-an-inmate.com/

http://loveaprisoner.com/

http://www.prisondating.co.uk/


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## Persephone The Dread

I can safely say this is a question I've never seen asked on SAS before.


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## tehuti88

Hell freaking no.


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## springbreeze1

Is it too disturbing? I'm having regret in posting this.

Edit: probably rather it's a bad question, because most will just answer no. But Rape is not all that rare a crime, and thus, rapists are not that rare, and some women may knowingly or unknowingly date them. Even scarier, there are some rapists who are not caught, not convicted. You won't even know it.



Persephone The Dread said:


> I can safely say this is a question I've never seen asked on SAS before.


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## Paper Samurai

I obviously can't speak on behalf of women on this lol, but it does seem to be a popular fantasy (not saying that it translates to real life though)


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## Persephone The Dread

springbreeze1 said:


> Is it too disturbing? I'm having regret in posting this.
> 
> Edit: probably rather it's a bad question, because most will just answer no. But Rape is not all that rare a crime, and thus, rapists are not that rare, and some women may knowingly or unknowingly date them. Even scarier, there are some rapists who are not caught, not convicted. You won't even know it.


People ask weird questions here sometimes but the subject matter of this does mean some people may react poorly.

Schrodingers rapist lol. I prefer not to think like that. I don't think rape is a common crime.



Paper Samurai said:


> I obviously can't speak on behalf of women on this lol, but it does seem to be a popular fantasy (not saying that it translates to real life though)


Does he rape her though? I've heard some things but not sure if it's just consensual poorly written bdsm and some people overreacting. Needless to say I'm not reading the books to find out :')


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## tehuti88

springbreeze1 said:


> Edit: probably rather it's a bad question, because most will just answer no. But Rape is not all that rare a crime, and thus, rapists are not that rare, and some women may knowingly or unknowingly date them. Even scarier, there are some rapists who are not caught, not convicted. You won't even know it.


This changes the question to "Would you date a rapist if you don't know he's a rapist?"--and really, how can someone answer that? :| If the woman doesn't know, can you _really_ assume she's okay with her boyfriend being a rapist...? (That's not a criticism of you, BTW, just an explanation of the answer.)

Sadly, there are women who would. I like to think the majority wouldn't, though, and I think those who would have some serious, SERIOUS issues.

Maybe a clearer question would be, "Would you _continue_ dating a man if you found out he's a rapist?" In which case, my answer would be *Hell freaking no.*



Paper Samurai said:


> I obviously can't speak on behalf of women on this lol, but it does seem to be a popular fantasy (not saying that it translates to real life though)


BDSM and even "rape fantasy" =/= real rape.


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## springbreeze1

Rape happens more often then reported/convicted.


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## The Library of Emma

no, i wouldn't date a rapist, reformed or otherwise.

Surely there are those men out there who truly are "reformed," and i'm big on second chances or whatever...but... i really don't want to have to deal with the chance that they're not. Once you treat a women like a piece of meat can you really go back?


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## springbreeze1

Yeah, I think it's a stupid question lol. I didn't think it through.



tehuti88 said:


> This changes the question to "Would you date a rapist if you don't know he's a rapist?"--and really, how can someone answer that? :| If the woman doesn't know, can you _really_ assume she's okay with her boyfriend being a rapist...? (That's not a criticism of you, BTW, just an explanation of the answer.)
> 
> Sadly, there are women who would. I like to think the majority wouldn't, though, and I think those who would have some serious, SERIOUS issues.
> 
> Maybe a clearer question would be, "Would you _continue_ dating a man if you found out he's a rapist?" In which case, my answer would be *Hell freaking no.*
> 
> BDSM and even "rape fantasy" =/= real rape.


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## Persephone The Dread

springbreeze1 said:


> Rape happens more often then reported/convicted.


Yeah but I don't think most guys are rapists it's also probably the same guys who do it multiple times often.


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## The Library of Emma

Persephone The Dread said:


> Yeah but I don't think most guys are rapists it's also probably the same guys who do it multiple times often.


should i be reassured or horrified?


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## Persephone The Dread

The Library of Emma said:


> should i be reassured or horrified?


I guess you should be reassured that most guy's aren't rapists.

#things you find yourself typing on sas 2016


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## truant

I couldn't date anyone who had no empathy or respect for the basic rights of other people. I wouldn't even date a man who calls promiscuous women sl-ts or wh-res, let alone one who'd used force or threats to get sex. Certain kinds of personalities make my skin crawl.



Paper Samurai said:


> I obviously can't speak on behalf of women on this lol, but it does seem to be a popular fantasy (not saying that it translates to real life though)


There's plenty of non-con erotica out there but 50SoG isn't one of them. It's practically sweet romance. Christian's a sap and Anna calls all the shots. It's not non-con. It's not even dub-con. It's just 'rich guy with a troubled past and some light BDSM'. It's fully consensual.


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## springbreeze1

I think you may be overly optimistic. In my home town, two families that I knew of had rapist relatives.



Persephone The Dread said:


> I guess you should be reassured that most guy's aren't rapists.
> 
> #things you find yourself typing on sas 2016


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## Ai

Alpaca said:


> Hm. Now I'm not so sure either. The case I listed would be considered statutory rape. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, but in the US at least, is there no discrimination between sex offenders? A statutory rapist would be grouped with someone charged with aggravated sexual assault? Same restrictions and all?


I'm pretty sure there are different levels and classifications for sex offenders, but I don't know if and what the differences in restrictions are. I looked it up once, ages ago, because I was perusing the Megan's Law website out of morbid curiosity.


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## Persephone The Dread

springbreeze1 said:


> I think you may be overly optimistic. In my home town, two families that I knew of had rapist relatives.


I think where you live will have an impact on that, but I also don't think it's useful to extrapolate too much from that.


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## Red October

springbreeze1 said:


> I think you may be overly optimistic. In my home town, two families that I knew of had rapist relatives.


Everyone has rapist relatives though, just because of the way family trees work

each generation you go back doubles the number of direct ancestors you have, nevermind all the uncles/aunts and so on

I doubt you'd have to go back more than a handful of generations in anyone's family to find multiple people who committed any given crime

Tracing your family tree is all fun and games until you start finding records of great-grandpa Gus the orphan poisoner...


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## KILOBRAVO

i think most people's answer to this would be no based on the simple act of what they did.

Look into it further and you'll find rapists do what they do not so much because of anything so much sexual... it was an act of dominance, controlling, and control freak behavior with possible many influencing factors.


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## VanitysFiend

Persephone The Dread said:


> People ask weird questions here sometimes but the subject matter of this does mean some people may react poorly.
> 
> Schrodingers rapist lol. I prefer not to think like that. I don't think rape is a common crime.


It's almost certainly more common than u think, although much of it is committed by a relatively small number of serial rapists who often go undetected for years because most of their victims say nothing, and the few that do aren't often believed, even when DNA evidence is collected in the form of rape kits if often sits in storage for decades until a group like End The Backlog comes along and decides to do it for the police.



Persephone The Dread said:


> Does he rape her though? I've heard some things but not sure if it's just consensual poorly written bdsm and some people overreacting. Needless to say I'm not reading the books to find out :')


This is by far the best analysis of FSoG that I've read, I'll leave it to u to make up your mind...


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## SplendidBob

Red October said:


> Tracing your family tree is all fun and games until you start finding records of great-grandpa Gus the orphan poisoner...


:lol


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## Persephone The Dread

splendidbob said:


> :lol


I like how your avatar is gradually zooming in more and more on the same photo


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## springbreeze1

By using the word "relative" here, I was simply avoiding to say "brother" for one and "son" for the other. I think it was obvious I wasn't tracing their family tree for a couple centuries.



Red October said:


> Everyone has rapist relatives though, just because of the way family trees work
> 
> each generation you go back doubles the number of direct ancestors you have, nevermind all the uncles/aunts and so on
> 
> I doubt you'd have to go back more than a handful of generations in anyone's family to find multiple people who committed any given crime
> 
> Tracing your family tree is all fun and games until you start finding records of great-grandpa Gus the orphan poisoner...


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## Resergence

*facedesk*


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## Carolyne

#NeverTrump


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## Rains

Ai said:


> If I _knew_ someone was a convicted rapist, then hell no, of course not. If there were _rumors_ that said person had raped someone without report or conviction, I would be very wary of him; if we were in contact at all at that point, I would likely probe his mind a bit on the issue circuitously. My dating him (or being alone with him) would be _highly_ unlikely, however. I have a lot of serious feelings on this and, even if it ended up being unfair to him in the case of rumors which are in actuality false, it's not something I can personally just let go of. I have difficulty trusting as it is.


I don't think I would even if it was just a rumour either. I'm such a poor judge of character I rather not take the risk.


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## Persephone The Dread

VanitysFiend said:


> It's almost certainly more common than u think, although much of it is committed by a relatively small number of serial rapists who often go undetected for years because most of their victims say nothing, and the few that do aren't often believed, even when DNA evidence is collected in the form of rape kits if often sits in storage for decades until a group like End The Backlog comes along and decides to do it for the police.
> 
> This is by far the best analysis of FSoG that I've read, I'll leave it to u to make up your mind...





> Dear Non-American Author trying to write in Americanisms: It's either "floor it" or "put the pedal to the metal". And actually, no one says the latter anymore. By the way, she's flooring it to the pedal in a Mercedes loaned to her by Kate. A Mercedes, and she's still *****ing? Her car, a quirky, old vehicle (but not a quirky, old truck) is unreliable, like a quirky, old truck. But it's a VW Bug, so she's definitely not Bella Swan. Still, there is something endearing about reading an non-American author trying to capture the slang of my people.





> She signs in, gets a visitor's pass, and heads upstairs to the second steel and glass and sandstone and steel and more glass and mahogany and red and yellow and pink and brown and scarlet and black and ochre and peach and ruby and olive and violet and fawn and violet and gold and chocolate and mauve and cream and crimson and silver and rose and azure and lemon and russet and gray and purple and white and pink and orange and blue lobby. I wish I could tell you that I just used more adjectives and words than James did to describe this sequence of events. I am many things, but I am not a liar.





> Because Ana still doesn't know a single thing about Christian Grey (besides his name, his mother's maiden name, his place of birth, the name of his first pet, the security code on the back of his Visa card, his blood type, and whether or not he's circumcised), she doesn't know how old he is or what he looks like.





> Just kidding! Instead, she's building him up in her head, calling him an Adonis and being too embarrassed by his really, really good-looking-ness to operate the recorder. He's amused by her uncertainty, she can tell. Because tycoons often find it amusing to have their time stolen by inept student non-reporters. Then she asks him if she can record his answers. Which is the most bizarre sentence I think a person can ask another person they are interviewing. "Do you mind if I make some kind of permanent record of the answers you give me, or would you rather this all become a pointless exercise in time wasting?"





> "Well, you'd better drive carefuly." His tone is stern, authoritative. Why should he care?
> 
> Because he's Edward Cullen, reader. Because he's Edward Cullen.


:lol


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## Paper Samurai

tehuti88 said:


> BDSM and even "rape fantasy" =/= real rape.


 I know, I did leave a caveat in the original post.



Persephone The Dread said:


> Does he rape her though? ... Needless to say I'm not reading the books to find out :')


 heh, I'm in the same boat (I haven't read it) I'm just going on what I've heard from a couple of different sources. Anyone in this thread want to fess up to having this in their book collection and clarify things >_> ?



truant said:


> There's plenty of non-con erotica out there but 50SoG isn't one of them. It's practically sweet romance. Christian's a sap and Anna calls all the shots.


 I can only go by what I've heard second hand I have to admit, but these quotes don't fill me with too much confidence in that suggestion:


"Grey ignores "safe words," which is a word the partner can say to halt any sexual activity that is uncomfortable or unwanted."

"In the novels, Steele breaks up with Grey and he enters her home without her permission and then has sex with her without her verbal consent. When he leaves, she breaks down in tears."

"When she threatens to leave, he threatens her.

"He'd probably like to beat seven shades of *&%$ out of me," Steele thinks. "The thought is depressing."

http://www.al.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2015/02/lines_from_50_shades_of_grey_t.html


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## SplendidBob

Persephone The Dread said:


> I like how your avatar is gradually zooming in more and more on the same photo


Thought it might be fun


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## truant

Paper Samurai said:


> I can only go by what I've heard second hand I have to admit, but these quotes don't fill me with too much confidence in that suggestion:
> 
> 
> "Grey ignores "safe words," which is a word the partner can say to halt any sexual activity that is uncomfortable or unwanted."
> 
> "In the novels, Steele breaks up with Grey and he enters her home without her permission and then has sex with her without her verbal consent. When he leaves, she breaks down in tears."
> 
> "When she threatens to leave, he threatens her.
> 
> "He'd probably like to beat seven shades of *&%$ out of me," Steele thinks. "The thought is depressing."
> 
> http://www.al.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2015/02/lines_from_50_shades_of_grey_t.html


I've read the first book. It was a chore, it took months, and it's currently gathering pixelated dust in my ereader. I also write erotica professionally, so I know a thing or two about this sort of thing.

The moral panic surrounding this book is completely unjustified. One might even say that it's of wingsian proportions. There are maybe a couple of times when Christian doesn't act like a saint, but he gives Ana millions of warnings about what he's like, repeatedly confirms with her that she's still okay with everything that's happening, and at times tries to drive her away. Ana is there because she wants to be there, because she's repeatedly decided to be there, and implying otherwise is stripping her of her agency, which she has plenty of in that book. It's obvious to any sympathetic, non-ideologically-driven reader that Christian would sooner crash his helicopter into a mountain than hurt Ana in any way she hadn't previously consented to. It's straight-up romance with a little BDSM and emo drama thrown in for spice.

The worst thing you can say about it is that James didn't do enough research and made a bad faux pas when it comes to BDSM subculture by bungling safewords. The stuff about deciding what she's going to eat and wear, etc., are all part of D/s fantasies. It's a kink, the dynamics of which are well-understood by people who have the kink, but which people who don't have the kink don't understand and feel righteously indignant about. In any case, it's all explained to Ana beforehand and she can walk out any time she wants. At no point is she ever forced to be there. Calling it 'rapey' is just judging people for having the kink.

Imo Christian isn't a strong enough character. He's wishy-washy and lets Ana boss him around too much. He doesn't make a good dom at all. If anyone needs a safeword in that book, it's Christian.

TL;DR I wouldn't believe the hype.


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## VanitysFiend

Persephone The Dread said:


> :lol


Read the whole thing, it's worth it...


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## KelsKels

Yeah, of course. For our first date we could have roofie fondue and puddin pops!


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## ShatteredGlass

I think that the majority of people (notice I didn't specify gender) with even a twinge of self respect would say no to this. I certainly would. I have no interest in dating someone who treats other humans like some sack of meat of be used for their pleasure. Sure, as a fantasy sort of thing - not that I'm really into that, but never in practice. No no no no no. 

That said, I think it's possible for someone to be truly reformed. But it brings forth the idea that you can never know for sure. You have your answer.


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## Ape in space

I'm shocked at the level of bigotry in this thread. So many people here are unwilling to date their fellow human beings (who have feelings and whatever), purely because they happen to be members of the Rape community. People have this ingrained attitude that members of this community are scum and less than human, which justifies discrimination against them. They are routinely arrested and subject to violence, at much higher rates than the privileged non-rape community. And it is considered socially shameful simply to be associated with a Rapist. So great is the fearmongering against this persecuted community that most people vastly overestimate their size and think that they are everywhere, threatening to degrade their pure non-Rape women.

Well, as someone who has studied this community, I will have you know that the Rape community is a very noble and sophisticated one. Rape culture is very vibrant and active, and every major city has a sizeable Rape community that perpetuates this ancient culture. The culture has given rise to fabulous food such as Rapini sprinkled with white powder, and their delicacies like Woman Breasts lubricated with rapeseed oil are the best I've ever had.

There's also the assumption that this community is mostly made up of males. On the contrary, women play a very prominent and active role in the community and in perpetuating Rape culture, although their contributions have historically been marginalised by the non-Rape community despite achieving the same Rape actions as the men, so congratulations on being a misogynist as well, you vile bigoted pieces of ****.


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## lisbeth

Absolutely ****ing not. Not anyone there was a shadow of a rumour about. There's no smoke without fire.

I rejected someone purely because I found out he was friends with a rapist, and I told him that was why. I also ended a friendship with someone because they were friends with a rumoured rapist. I even considered ending a friendship with someone because they were friends with someone who was friends with a rumoured rapist, and didn't see anything wrong with that person's association.

For the record, I would completely cut off anyone I heard had committed statutory rape, too.

Very little disgusts me more. Current sentences aren't long enough.



springbreeze1 said:


> Is it too disturbing? I'm having regret in posting this.
> 
> Edit: probably rather it's a bad question, because most will just answer no. But Rape is not all that rare a crime, and thus, rapists are not that rare, and some women may knowingly or unknowingly date them. Even scarier, there are some rapists who are not caught, not convicted. You won't even know it.


This is absolutely true, and pretty much everyone in this thread will have met a rapist - you probably just don't know it. Probably more than one. I know a bunch. I can name multiple rapists, statutory rapists and paedophiles/child abusers in my community. Only a couple of them have seen any prison. One is still working as a teacher.

Almost all of them seem like "nice, normal people". Pretty much all of them have friends, girlfriends and wives. Also, it's not really a secret what some of them have done - people know and they make excuses.


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## Carolyne

lisbeth said:


> I rejected someone purely because I found out he was friends with a rapist, and I told him that was why. I also ended a friendship with someone because they were friends with a rumoured rapist. I even considered ending a friendship with someone because they were friends with someone who was friends with a rumoured rapist, and didn't see anything wrong with that person's association.


I imagine I'd do the same, but I've actually never known anyone or known of anyone who was accused of rape. Or maybe I have but the rumors never got back to me because I don't have friends to vet my other friends.


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## AllTheSame

I cannot for the life of me imagine that any woman would be OK with dating a rapist. It's sort of a rhetorical question, which, well....would explain the post I made in this thread earlier. I agree current prison sentences are not long enough. I can't think of a better reason really (with the exception of murderers) to keep someone behind bars, and to keep law and order in society, and to keep people safe. Is there really a better example of anyone who needs to be behind bars? For life?

I was actually married to a woman who committed statutory rape. My ex-wife of 18 years, who was a hs English teacher, had sex with at least one student (that I know of). I went to the school board with proof of this, with facebook addresses and emails between the two of them. I went on a Friday afternoon, and the president of the school board recorded our hour and a half long conversation. The next Monday morning before school started she was unceremoniously fired. Well, she was "asked" to resign. I have absolutely no regrets about doing that, at all. I actually think charges should have been pressed and to this day I'm not sure why they weren't. The president of the school board was actually very, very nervous about me keeping this quiet, I had to reassure him over and over that I wasn't going to go to the media with any of it. So that probably explains why.


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## lisbeth

AllTheSame said:


> I cannot for the life of me imagine that any woman would be OK with dating a rapist. It's sort of a rhetorical question, which, well....would explain the post I made in this thread earlier. I agree current prison sentences are not long enough. I can't think of a better reason really (with the exception of murderers) to keep someone behind bars, and to keep law and order in society, and to keep people safe. Is there really a better example of anyone who needs to be behind bars? For life?
> 
> I was actually married to a woman who committed statutory rape. My ex-wife of 18 years, who was a hs English teacher, had sex with at least one student (that I know of). I went to the school board with proof of this, with facebook addresses and emails between the two of them. I went on a Friday afternoon, and the president of the school board recorded our hour and a half long conversation. The next Monday morning before school started she was unceremoniously fired. Well, she was "asked" to resign. I have absolutely no regrets about doing that, at all. I actually think charges should have been pressed and to this day I'm not sure why they weren't. The president of the school board was actually very, very nervous about me keeping this quiet, I had to reassure him over and over that I wasn't going to go to the media with any of it. So that probably explains why.


You did 110% the right thing. That was an incredibly strong thing to do. I doubt many people would have the guts to turn in someone close to them like that.


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## Carolyne

AllTheSame said:


> I cannot for the life of me imagine that any woman would be OK with dating a rapist.


I know you said it's rhetorical, but since some women do, it is a valid question. I assume they just believe their side of the story. It's not rape, it was exaggerated, everyone has sex when drunk, college kids make stupid decision, drinking-culture is the real criminal, everyone in town knows she's promiscuous, and other stuff like that.


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## AllTheSame

Carolyne said:


> I know you said it's rhetorical, but since some women do, it is a valid question. I assume they just believe their side of the story. It's not rape, it was exaggerated, everyone has sex when drunk, college kids make stupid decision, drinking-culture is the real criminal, everyone in town knows she's promiscuous, and other stuff like that.


Yeah I guess so. When I saw the thread title and the original post, I immediately thought of some creepy, sociopath in a dark alley but oc it happens all the time...anything without consent is oc rape. When people start drinking heavily I also think that can lead to situations where consent isn't given, of course....just look at the Brock Turner case. I really can't think of a more disgusting human being. Seriously. It happens all the time, and they aren't always committed by the sociopaths you imagine in the dark alleys somewhere. Nothing scares me more as a parent of two teenage girls, than thinking about stuff like that. That is, really, what my worst nightmares are made of.


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## Paper Samurai

truant said:


> I've read the first book. It was a chore, it took months, and it's currently gathering pixelated dust in my ereader. I also write erotica professionally, so I know a thing or two about this sort of thing.
> 
> ...
> 
> TL;DR I wouldn't believe the hype.


 Ah fair enough then, I think you're definitely the closest thing to an authority on the topic in this thread heh.

As a quick aside, seeing as you're "in the trenches" so to speak (probably not the best metaphor but let's roll with it ;-]) - how popular is that particular sub genre would you say?


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## VanitysFiend

Paper Samurai said:


> Ah fair enough then, I think you're definitely the closest thing to an authority on the topic in this thread heh.
> 
> As a quick aside, seeing as you're "in the trenches" so to speak (probably not the best metaphor but let's roll with it ;-]) - how popular is that particular sub genre would you say?


If u want to read a really, really in depth review of FSoG, here's the best one I found. It's arguably better than reading the book...


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## Paper Samurai

VanitysFiend said:


> If u want to read a really, really in depth review of FSoG, here's the best one I found. It's arguably better than reading the book...


lol, I've read the first blog post (which covers the first chapter or so) - will definitely bookmark this.


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## lisbeth

Carolyne said:


> I know you said it's rhetorical, but since some women do, it is a valid question. I assume they just believe their side of the story. It's not rape, it was exaggerated, everyone has sex when drunk, college kids make stupid decision, drinking-culture is the real criminal, everyone in town knows she's promiscuous, and other stuff like that.


This is exactly it. I know girls who've dated rapists and people who've been (or are) friends with rapists, and this is the exact reasoning.


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## truant

Paper Samurai said:


> Ah fair enough then, I think you're definitely the closest thing to an authority on the topic in this thread heh.
> 
> As a quick aside, seeing as you're "in the trenches" so to speak (probably not the best metaphor but let's roll with it ;-]) - how popular is that particular sub genre would you say?


It's hard to say exactly. Trends are always coming and going. Recently, there's been a lot of biker erotica. And there's been a lot of stuff a lot worse than 50SoG. Dark themes aren't uncommon in modern romance and erotica.

50SoG combines two subgenres: billionaires and BDSM. Billionaires (ie. rich men, dukes, princes, etc.) have always been popular in romance and erotica. They're a staple that will never go away. So that part of the equation is "very popular".

After 50SoG came out, there was a huge outpouring of copycat stuff (which I did not contribute to). So if you look at the sheer number of billionaire BDSM romance/erotica stories available, it's probably the largest 'genre' right now. And a lot of women do seem to really enjoy fantasies about power/control. But you have to understand that these fantasies are not about 'being dominated'. It's not that straightforward. It seems like almost everyone misunderstands this fantasy. Men, especially.

BDSM fantasies are, in part, about finding a man who understands boundaries. He has absolute power over you, and is faced with the greatest temptation (your helpless body), and yet his respect for you never wavers. He never goes too far. He's always in total control of his emotions. Tying you up and methodically 'torturing' you is how he demonstrates his control. Iow, he's a man you can trust, no matter how vulnerable you are. It's not about being tenderized like a steak; it's about finding a man with absolute power who isn't corrupt. That's an important fantasy for many women, because many women are afraid of men. There are other elements to the fantasy, but that's the main reason why BDSM fantasies are popular and why they will likely remain popular.

But BDSM props and scripts come and go. I think it'll always be one of the most popular subgenres, but it's not always the most popular subgenre. The popularity of subgenres depends a lot on what else happens to be popular. Years ago, vampire erotica and romance were huge because Twilight was huge. It appealed to the fantasy that one could be flawlessly beautiful forever, another obvious fantasy for women. So the subgenres come and go, but the underlying fantasies never change, because they're satisfying desires, or allaying fears, that never change, because we're human.


----------



## VanitysFiend

truant said:


> It's hard to say exactly. Trends are always coming and going. Recently, there's been a lot of biker erotica. And there's been a lot of stuff a lot worse than 50SoG. Dark themes aren't uncommon in modern romance and erotica.
> 
> 50SoG combines two subgenres: billionaires and BDSM. Billionaires (ie. rich men, dukes, princes, etc.) have always been popular in romance and erotica. They're a staple that will never go away. So that part of the equation is "very popular".
> 
> After 50SoG came out, there was a huge outpouring of copycat stuff (which I did not contribute to). So if you look at the sheer number of billionaire BDSM romance/erotica stories available, it's probably the largest 'genre' right now. And a lot of women do seem to really enjoy fantasies about power/control. But you have to understand that these fantasies are not about 'being dominated'. It's not that straightforward. It seems like almost everyone misunderstands this fantasy. Men, especially.
> 
> BDSM fantasies are, in part, about finding a man who understands boundaries. He has absolute power over you, and is faced with the greatest temptation (your helpless body), and yet his respect for you never wavers. He never goes too far. He's always in total control of his emotions. Tying you up and methodically 'torturing' you is how he demonstrates his control. Iow, he's a man you can trust, no matter how vulnerable you are. It's not about being tenderized like a steak; it's about finding a man with absolute power who isn't corrupt. That's an important fantasy for many women, because many women are afraid of men. There are other elements to the fantasy, but that's the main reason why BDSM fantasies are popular and why they will likely remain popular.
> 
> But BDSM props and scripts come and go. I think it'll always be one of the most popular subgenres, but it's not always the most popular subgenre. The popularity of subgenres depends a lot on what else happens to be popular. Years ago, vampire erotica and romance were huge because Twilight was huge. It appealed to the fantasy that one could be flawlessly beautiful forever, another obvious fantasy for women. So the subgenres come and go, but the underlying fantasies never change, because they're satisfying desires, or allaying fears, that never change, because we're human.


Hey @truant, have u ever heard of Chuck Tingle? If so whats your opinion on his body of work


----------



## Cool Ice Dude55

I don't want to date anyone that causes harm, pain and suffering to people or animals.


----------



## truant

VanitysFiend said:


> Hey @truant, have u ever heard of Chuck Tingle? If so whats your opinion on his body of work


Oh God. Chuck.

I'm pretty sure Chuck is actually an alien lifeform trolling humanity.


----------



## VanitysFiend

truant said:


> Oh God. Chuck.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Chuck is actually an alien lifeform trolling humanity.


Does he get talked about much in erotica circles? I mean when was the last time an author in your genre was nominated for a Hugo with his masterpiece of literature know as 'Space Raptor Butt Invasion'?


----------



## truant

VanitysFiend said:


> Does he get talked about much in erotica circles? I mean when was the last time an author in your genre was nominated for a Hugo with his masterpiece of literature know as 'Space Raptor Butt Invasion'?


Not really. I mean, we sometimes entertain ourselves by sharing his covers, but Chuck's mostly just a crafty IMer. We don't read his work to see what he's doing right. He's a marketing phenomenon. I do know people that have written stuff every bit as absurd as his, though. Erotica is filled with random, crazy, bizarre stuff.


----------



## 552569

You can't be serious right?


----------



## coeur_brise

No. It's not like they can change just like that. That's why they're more likely to re- offend and why they think rape is ok. I would never date anyone who thinks sexual assault is "okay." Ever


----------



## Svarog11

lisbeth said:


> Absolutely ****ing not. Not anyone there was a shadow of a rumour about. There's no smoke without fire.
> 
> I rejected someone purely because I found out he was friends with a rapist, and I told him that was why. I also ended a friendship with someone because they were friends with a rumoured rapist. I even considered ending a friendship with someone because they were friends with someone who was friends with a rumoured rapist, and didn't see anything wrong with that person's association.
> 
> For the record, I would completely cut off anyone I heard had committed statutory rape, too.
> 
> Very little disgusts me more. Current sentences aren't long enough.
> 
> This is absolutely true, and pretty much everyone in this thread will have met a rapist - you probably just don't know it. Probably more than one. I know a bunch. I can name multiple rapists, statutory rapists and paedophiles/child abusers in my community. Only a couple of them have seen any prison. One is still working as a teacher.
> 
> Almost all of them seem like "nice, normal people". Pretty much all of them have friends, girlfriends and wives. Also, it's not really a secret what some of them have done - people know and they make excuses.


I agree that rapists don't get enough time/punishment but come on, anyone who's rumored to be one? Your dad can be rumored to be a rapist, if I was a woman and I was in his social circle and I disliked him, assuming I was that morally deprived, I could do that. But you wouldn't believe me then, would you? Rumors are bull****, I wouldn't want to be in the same room with a rapist but rumors aren't anything to go by. I'd probably be weary of a person rumored to be a rapist myself but I wouldn't take gossip for fact that's just insane.


----------



## Overdrive

Coming up next on SAS, "would you date a terrorist psychopath rapist pedophile ?"


----------



## lisbeth

Svarog11 said:


> I agree that rapists don't get enough time/punishment but come on, anyone who's rumored to be one? Your dad can be rumored to be a rapist, if I was a woman and I was in his social circle and I disliked him, assuming I was that morally deprived, I could do that. But you wouldn't believe me then, would you? Rumors are bull****, I wouldn't want to be in the same room with a rapist but rumors aren't anything to go by. I'd probably be weary of a person rumored to be a rapist myself but I wouldn't take gossip for fact that's just insane.


Like I said, there's no smoke without fire. Rumours don't just come from nowhere. You can use your own judgement about how likely it is to be true, based on your own experiences of the person, the circumstances, who and how many people have said this, and so on. That's a far cry from "taking gossip for fact". I'm not going to give people the benefit of the doubt over something like this. I'm not losing out on anything at all by cutting those people out.


----------



## sad1231234

Im not a girl, but i dont think a rapisr would have any success in dating sane people. Although i do think they have better chances at getting a date than me lol.


----------



## springbreeze1

I suddenly remember Julian Assange is accused of rape. Would anyone date him? >

I'm trying to say rapists come in all shapes and forms. Not all are creepy unattractive violent losers. So it's a more complicated question than many would think.


----------



## Carolyne

lisbeth said:


> Like I said, *there's no smoke without fire*. Rumours don't just come from nowhere. You can use your own judgement about how likely it is to be true, based on your own experiences of the person, the circumstances, who and how many people have said this, and so on. That's a far cry from "taking gossip for fact". I'm not going to give people the benefit of the doubt over something like this. *I'm not losing out on anything at all by cutting those people out.*


It's definitely important to put your safety first, so you shouldn't be disparaged for wanting to avoid someone who has rumors like that circulating around. When I think about it, I'd probably avoid dating people because of rumors that they cheat on all their other partners, and there are plenty of other things I might hear about someone and want to avoid dating them for. So I can't see why I wouldn't take such a serious accusation like rape into consideration and avoid them.


----------



## Svarog11

lisbeth said:


> Like I said, there's no smoke without fire. Rumours don't just come from nowhere. You can use your own judgement about how likely it is to be true, based on your own experiences of the person, the circumstances, who and how many people have said this, and so on. That's a far cry from "taking gossip for fact". I'm not going to give people the benefit of the doubt over something like this. I'm not losing out on anything at all by cutting those people out.


Let me just say this it's a good thing no Western country's justice system operates the same way you think. "no smoke without a fire" is basically your way of saying guilty until proven innocent and it's insane to me that someone can rationalize this. Your own judgement ain't worth **** because it isn't based on factual evidence (and neither would mine, although as I said earlier , I'd probably be wary of anyone accused or rape myself and more than likely break contact with them).

Anyway nobody cares who you or I would communicate with or what you're "losing out" on, that was never the subject of conversation and I couldn't give less ****s about it. This is to do with the dangers of making baseless claims, presented as facts and how they affect (innocent) people's lives, something you likely have zero sympathy or care about, but is part of the problem nonetheless. You're only okay with this sort of mentality because the topic of conversation is something you feel very strongly about and you're only allowed to express such opinions because it is a controversial topic, but change it around a little bit and I'm quite sure you'd be uncomfortable with it, here let me give you an example:

"Theresa told me vaccines cause autism, I don't care that there is no proof, judging from my own experiences, seeing her son who was a fine boy who was later diagnosed with autism after being vaccinated I've come to the conclusion, based on what my friend told me and my own experiences, that vaccines are bad and I shouldn't vaccinate my child!"

See, the lady in my example, like you, believes her friends fully and she uses her own judgment of something she is absolutely clueless about to evaluate a situation. The consequence of her actions is that her child would later probably die from something that could have been prevented.

If you only see one side of the problem and refuse to acknowledge the rest and act based on emotion and "feelings" you're part of the problem and I know this is pointless chat on an anon internet board but people like this really piss me off sometimes with their self-rightous attitudes and bull**** follow-ups like "if you don't agree with me you're clearly a rapist or you clearly don't care" and before you spout your bull****, I have at least one friend who's been the victim of sexual abuse, so no, I am not indifferent to it I just don't subscribe to demonizing people based on someone's baseless statements like you do, because I actually care about the issue and respect the victims and recognize that your behavior only serves to contribute to the problem, shut down communication and divides people.


----------



## greentea33

springbreeze1 said:


> I suddenly remember Julian Assange is accused of rape. Would anyone date him? >
> 
> I'm trying to say rapists come in all shapes and forms. Not all are creepy unattractive violent losers. So it's a more complicated question than many would think.


I think that white hair is sexy.:serious:


----------



## 814065

I don't mean to be a dick but this question turned my stomach, Jesus Christ.

IDK would you marry a person who sometimes ****s dead bodies? God, this is why I just need to kill myself so I never have to be triggered by this ****.


----------



## SmartCar

Persephone The Dread said:


> People ask weird questions here sometimes but the subject matter of this does mean some people may react poorly.
> 
> Schrodingers rapist lol. I prefer not to think like that. I don't think rape is a common crime.
> 
> Does he rape her though? I've heard some things but not sure if it's just consensual poorly written bdsm and some people overreacting. Needless to say I'm not reading the books to find out :')


I believe it's consensual, even though it appears pretty violent sexually in some parts, plus poorly written & made to seem like a love story, even though I think personally it's just based on lust; the hypocrisy of the book is that if a man wrote this, it would be harshly condemned; but when a woman does it she's _"visionary"_ she's empowering women :lol bleh uke


----------



## Persephone The Dread

SmartCar said:


> I believe it's consensual, even though it appears pretty violent sexually in some parts, plus poorly written & made to seem like a love story, even though I think personally it's just based on lust; the hypocrisy of the book is that if a man wrote this, it would be harshly condemned; but when a woman does it she's _"visionary"_ she's empowering women :lol bleh uke


I haven't read it but I'm almost certain now it won't be worse than some free stuff I've read online (by worse I mean as hardcore not writing wise...) It does sound too cheesy for me I think based on the commentary someone posted here. It also literally is Twilight fanfiction that she rewrote parts of later.

Some guys do write erotica they're just not famous, but yeah you're right if a guy wrote this and he became really famous than a certain subset of people would overreact like they always do.


----------



## lisbeth

Svarog11 said:


> Let me just say this it's a good thing no Western country's justice system operates the same way you think. "no smoke without a fire" is basically your way of saying guilty until proven innocent and it's insane to me that someone can rationalize this. Your own judgement ain't worth **** because it isn't based on factual evidence (and neither would mine, although as I said earlier , I'd probably be wary of anyone accused or rape myself and more than likely break contact with them).
> 
> Anyway nobody cares who you or I would communicate with or what you're "losing out" on, that was never the subject of conversation and I couldn't give less ****s about it. This is to do with the dangers of making baseless claims, presented as facts and how they affect (innocent) people's lives, something you likely have zero sympathy or care about, but is part of the problem nonetheless. You're only okay with this sort of mentality because the topic of conversation is something you feel very strongly about and you're only allowed to express such opinions because it is a controversial topic, but change it around a little bit and I'm quite sure you'd be uncomfortable with it, here let me give you an example:
> 
> "Theresa told me vaccines cause autism, I don't care that there is no proof, judging from my own experiences, seeing her son who was a fine boy who was later diagnosed with autism after being vaccinated I've come to the conclusion, based on what my friend told me and my own experiences, that vaccines are bad and I shouldn't vaccinate my child!"
> 
> See, the lady in my example, like you, believes her friends fully and she uses her own judgment of something she is absolutely clueless about to evaluate a situation. The consequence of her actions is that her child would later probably die from something that could have been prevented.
> 
> If you only see one side of the problem and refuse to acknowledge the rest and act based on emotion and "feelings" you're part of the problem and I know this is pointless chat on an anon internet board but people like this really piss me off sometimes with their self-rightous attitudes and bull**** follow-ups like "if you don't agree with me you're clearly a rapist or you clearly don't care" and before you spout your bull****, I have at least one friend who's been the victim of sexual abuse, so no, I am not indifferent to it I just don't subscribe to demonizing people based on someone's baseless statements like you do, because I actually care about the issue and respect the victims and recognize that your behavior only serves to contribute to the problem, shut down communication and divides people.


Wow this is long.

You really can't compare this to vaccines and autism. A better analogy would be if you hear from several people that Brian hits his wife, you've seen Brian acting in a threatening way before, and you've seen Mary going around with bruises and seeming afraid of Brian. You'd be stupid not to put two and two together. It isn't a baseless statement. Smoky as hell, high likelihood of fire.

What contributes to the problem is the people who hear or even witness things, have reason to believe it's true, don't give a **** and keep associating with the perpetrator. Because in reality, in my experience, the people I know to be guilty tend to still have friends, partners, be members of the same community as before, have zero social consequences. Because a lot of people really don't seem to give a ****. No guilty lives being ruined, let alone innocent.


----------



## Royals

What a weird question. By the time you know someone's a rapist it's already too late. Maybe only porn stars would because they're used to it. There's some women who dated serial killers but probably only for the attention or fame.


----------



## TheLastShy

Some women seem to be really into psychopaths and criminals. I heard of a few serial killers that got daily love letters from fans. So I guess being a rapist will make you more desirable to the opposite sex.


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Royals said:


> What a weird question. By the time you know someone's a rapist it's already too late. *Maybe only porn stars would because they're used to it.* There's some women who dated serial killers but probably only for the attention or fame.


wtf


----------



## catcharay

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with that knowledge upon finding out, and being the type that's highly emotional I would react terribly with notions he would rape me himself (if things got bad)or his potential to even kill me. The fact he did it to someone else is so terrible and would just blur any nice imagery of a future with him. That's what my mind would be spinning. However, I do believe there is a judicial system for a reason and rehabilitation and reform can be an outcome, otherwise we would be shunning society's reformed cast offs to a deep jungle, segregated elsewhere for life. It's a case by case basis and it's not easy to reconcile a reformed rapist as having the opportunity to start a new life with someone. But I'm sure some girls do, and I would not judge them. For me, I wouldn't.


----------



## iAmCodeMonkey

This place is turning into la-la-land. My god...



Red October said:


> It seems that some might
> 
> http://www.meet-an-inmate.com/
> 
> http://loveaprisoner.com/
> 
> http://www.prisondating.co.uk/


What. The. ****.


----------



## theCARS1979

Persephone The Dread said:


> People ask weird questions here sometimes but the subject matter of this does mean some people may react poorly.
> 
> Schrodingers rapist lol. I prefer not to think like that. I don't think rape is a common crime.
> 
> Does he rape her though? I've heard some things but not sure if it's just consensual poorly written bdsm and some people overreacting. Needless to say I'm not reading the books to find out :')


no I think its just bsdm and its just a book, and people act out things in the bedroom for fun. I dont think girls should date a rapist or murder if they find out they were because itll wind up happening to them too, Also we shouldnt always copy what we see on TV and books, speaking about the damn clown sightings all over the remake of the movie Stephen Kings IT or Killer klowns from outterspace


----------



## Persephone The Dread

theCARS1979 said:


> no I think its just bsdm and its just a book, also we shouldnt always copy what we see on TV and books, speaking about the damn clown sightings.


Yeah I got that now (I already knew it was 'bdsm',) I didn't think he did but I was just wondering if actual rape happened at some point since I haven't read any of the books.


----------



## LonelyLurker

Overdrive said:


> Coming up next on SAS, "would you date a terrorist psychopath rapist pedophile ?"


Come on man.

"Would you date a terrorist psychopath rapist pedophile...if he was a confident Alpha?"

You were so close.:laugh:


----------



## VanitysFiend

LonelyLurker said:


> Come on man.
> 
> "Would you date a terrorist psychopath rapist pedophile...if he was a confident Alpha?"
> 
> You were so close.:laugh:


Hows about "Would u date ex-rapist Ched Evans?"


----------



## LonelyLurker

VanitysFiend said:


> Hows about "Would u date ex-rapist Ched Evans?"


I don't think you can be an "ex-rapist", once you cross that bridge there's no coming back to the land of the decent.

I am aware of the case you're referring to though, I don't know if it's a call back to earlier in this thread, to be honest I didn't consider it worth going back to read.


----------



## Royals

Persephone The Dread said:


> wtf


Porn stars are raped for money. Mentally, spiritually, physically. The way they are treated, degraded, abused. A lot of of them get forced to do things they don't want, forced and treated like slaves to do certain sexual acts. Because a lot of them are dazed and on drugs. There's even a a genre rape porn. Wich sick person loves to be raped or abused like this?


----------



## Red October

Royals said:


> Porn stars are raped for money. Mentally, spiritually, physically. The way they are treated, degraded, abused. A lot of of them get forced to do things they don't want, forced and treated like slaves to do certain sexual acts. Because a lot of them are dazed and on drugs. There's even a a genre rape porn. Wich sick person loves to be raped or abused like this?


:lol


----------



## Pongowaffle

At least they will be experienced.


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Royals said:


> Porn stars are raped for money. Mentally, spiritually, physically. The way they are treated, degraded, abused. A lot of of them get forced to do things they don't want, forced and treated like slaves to do certain sexual acts. Because a lot of them are dazed and on drugs. There's even a a genre rape porn. Wich sick person loves to be raped or abused like this?





Red October said:


> :lol


I read that post earlier and just didn't have the energy to even bother replying lol. I still don't.


----------



## JustThisGuy

Royals said:


> Porn stars are raped for money. Mentally, spiritually, physically. The way they are treated, degraded, abused. A lot of of them get forced to do things they don't want, forced and treated like slaves to do certain sexual acts. Because a lot of them are dazed and on drugs. There's even a a genre rape porn. Wich sick person loves to be raped or abused like this?


 Pornstars consent to do things on camera for money. They're models/actors that do this because they're not only comfortable doing it, but so that they can get famous and then make even more money off things they consent to do in front of a camera. If you think consent is rape, then you've got problems with people in general. People in general would consent to sex for just--gasp!--pleasure. My goodness, what has the world come to.

The "you're victims" is actually really insulting to most porn people. Just bc they do something everyone does in front of a camera, doesn't mean they have a hard past or have a habit to feed. They're just exhibitionists. Most people are exhibitionists. It's just that most of us like a smaller audience. Say like, one person. Heh. Given, a whole lot of porn stuff is theatrical and likewise impractical. But that's because it's roleplay. Even true amateur stuff kind of is. There's a camera pointing at them and they play to the camera. Also, the "rape porn" or BDSM is just another roleplay. They may or may not indulge in their private lives, given, but it's clearly consent or they wouldn't have a contract/disclaimer or safe words.


----------



## Were

Royals said:


> Porn stars are raped for money. Mentally, spiritually, physically. The way they are treated, degraded, abused. A lot of of them get forced to do things they don't want, forced and treated like slaves to do certain sexual acts. Because a lot of them are dazed and on drugs. There's even a a genre rape porn. Wich sick person loves to be raped or abused like this?


Pornstars sacrifice themselves for our sins!


----------



## Royals

JustThisGuy said:


> Pornstars consent to do things on camera for money. They're models/actors that do this because they're not only comfortable doing it, but so that they can get famous and then make even more money off things they consent to do in front of a camera. If you think consent is rape, then you've got problems with people in general. People in general would consent to sex for just--gasp!--pleasure. My goodness, what has the world come to.
> 
> The "you're victims" is actually really insulting to most porn people. Just bc they do something everyone does in front of a camera, doesn't mean they have a hard past or have a habit to feed. They're just exhibitionists. Most people are exhibitionists. It's just that most of us like a smaller audience. Say like, one person. Heh. Given, a whole lot of porn stuff is theatrical and likewise impractical. But that's because it's roleplay. Even true amateur stuff kind of is. There's a camera pointing at them and they play to the camera. Also, the "rape porn" or BDSM is just another roleplay. They may or may not indulge in their private lives, given, but it's clearly consent or they wouldn't have a contract/disclaimer or safe words.


I'm tired of seeing people defend porn stars. And supporting women degrade themselves on camera. And men demean them. Yes, sure, they all choose to go into porn, they are never emotionally deceived or forced to do things they don't really want. None of them comes from an emotionally unstable home. None of them have daddy issues. Wake up! And can you think straight when being on drugs? Exibisionism is considered abnormal also. Like you said being intimate with one person, not on camera, is normal. You only see them on camera, not the moments before or after. How miserable they might be. Do you really believe their life is really like they 'act' on camera? Just because they do something doesn't mean it's right. If someone gets beaten unconscious on camera does it make it right just because the person consented? Do you understand the emotional, spiritual, physical and mental harm this adult star life can cause someone? Let's not ignore that and think about that and not our own selfish pleasures. The sick thing is that some people do anything for money. Where do draw the line?

Sinners only justify their wrongdoing because they love sinning so much. They can't think straight, because the high of masturbation is so great. Look at what selfish lust makes people do. No wonder people can't see the truth. What I say spiritually and about God doesn't make sense to them.

You really think the adult business is such a great, positive, holy business.I suggest you read more testimonies and stories from ex adult stars and wake up. I have the truth straight from their mouths! The truth is it's immoral and perverted to support the adult business especially when you know how much misery, pain, death and addiction has caused it. Do you how many adult stars commited suicide? Was it because they were so happy? And how many women are trafficked in this industry?

It's time us men stand up and righteously say no to the adult industry. Proclaim the truth loud from the mountain tops. Just say 'It's wrong!'. But keep on defending the adult industry. I will keep on disaproving of it.


----------



## Tetragammon

Jesus H Christ, this guy again??? Give it a rest dude; nobody cares about your holy crusade.


----------



## Red October

Royals said:


> I'm tired of seeing people defend porn stars.


then stop attacking them

more than a few of us are tired of your hateful nonsense too, and dressing it up as spirituality doesn't excuse it

believe what you want, argue what you want; but don't be surprised when people call you out on it


----------



## JustThisGuy

^ Well put.



Royals said:


> I'm tired of seeing people defend porn stars. And supporting women degrade themselves on camera. And men demean them. Yes, sure, they all choose to go into porn, they are never emotionally deceived or forced to do things they don't really want. None of them comes from an emotionally unstable home. None of them have daddy issues. Wake up! And can you think straight when being on drugs? Exibisionism is considered abnormal also. Like you said being intimate with one person, not on camera, is normal. You only see them on camera, not the moments before or after. How miserable they might be. Do you really believe their life is really like they 'act' on camera? Just because they do something doesn't mean it's right. If someone gets beaten unconscious on camera does it make it right just because the person consented? Do you understand the emotional, spiritual, physical and mental harm this adult star life can cause someone? Let's not ignore that and think about that and not our own selfish pleasures. The sick thing is that some people do anything for money. Where do draw the line?
> 
> Sinners only justify their wrongdoing because they love sinning so much. They can't think straight, because the high of masturbation is so great. Look at what selfish lust makes people do. No wonder people can't see the truth. What I say spiritually and about God doesn't make sense to them.
> 
> You really think the adult business is such a great, positive, holy business.I suggest you read more testimonies and stories from ex adult stars and wake up. I have the truth straight from their mouths! The truth is it's immoral and perverted to support the adult business especially when you know how much misery, pain, death and addiction has caused it. Do you how many adult stars commited suicide? Was it because they were so happy? And how many women are trafficked in this industry?
> 
> It's time us men stand up and righteously say no to the adult industry. Proclaim the truth loud from the mountain tops. Just say 'It's wrong!'. But keep on defending the adult industry. I will keep on disaproving of it.


The reason they're viewed as lesser and might have a hard time in life is because people shame who they are based on an aspect of them. The irony self-evidently escapes you. It's hard for them to live a normal life because people like you will judge or people will submit to people like you for having a friend or SO or family member that does erotica and not wanting to be associated with them; alienating them. Vicious cycle that can cause problems for people. I'm not saying all pornstars might not have a past, but to presume there is something wrong with them based on that is so unfair.

Also, roleplay. I said that a few times in my first post. Even simple sex stuff is a roleplay. They're playing to the camera. That's in a realm of theater and thus roleplay. Many pornstars offscreen life is actually pretty tame. Some, like I was saying about shaming, causes people to not have all that many relationships or much sex out of porn-made scenarios because of stigma and responsibility/safety of their profession (STDs). There are horror stories (I've read a good few), but you usually hear about them. They're not this constant, like it was in the 70s, where drugs and HIV were everywhere.

I'm not defending because masturbation. I'm defending them because they're people and respect is what you should give someone. Also, you seem fixated on the women, as if you solely have a problem with the women and not the men. Like they're fragile and unable to think for themselves and must be being abused by the guys. Maybe mixing with your puritan point of view that women should be a certain way for you. You'll say, "no, for God," but that's still for you.

Speaking of God: you think taking advice from a being that made incest the origin of humanity a good idea? Adam and Eve. Two sons: Cain and Abel. Abel is killed by Cain. Bible states Adam only had two sons. So that leaves Cain, the first murderer, and his mommy, Eve. Gross. Maybe the flood story? It's good for the kiddos, right? Yahweh, this loving god, drowns everyone except Noah, his wife, 3 sons and their wives. Cousins are basically half-brothers/sisters. Again, back to gross. God seems to think incest is the best course for humanity. Well, after genocide.


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Royals said:


> It's time us men stand up and righteously say no to the adult industry. Proclaim the truth loud from the mountain tops.


I kind of want to add this to my signature for the lols.


----------



## Overdrive

Persephone The Dread said:


> I read that post earlier and just didn't have the energy to even bother replying lol. I still don't.


Oh come on !, this will be interesting :lolopcorn


----------



## Royals

JustThisGuy said:


> ^ Well put.
> 
> The reason they're viewed as lesser and might have a hard time in life is because people shame who they are based on an aspect of them. The irony self-evidently escapes you. It's hard for them to live a normal life because people like you will judge or people will submit to people like you for having a friend or SO or family member that does erotica and not wanting to be associated with them; alienating them. Vicious cycle that can cause problems for people. I'm not saying all pornstars might not have a past, but to presume there is something wrong with them based on that is so unfair.
> 
> Also, roleplay. I said that a few times in my first post. Even simple sex stuff is a roleplay. They're playing to the camera. That's in a realm of theater and thus roleplay. Many pornstars offscreen life is actually pretty tame. Some, like I was saying about shaming, causes people to not have all that many relationships or much sex out of porn-made scenarios because of stigma and responsibility/safety of their profession (STDs). There are horror stories (I've read a good few), but you usually hear about them. They're not this constant, like it was in the 70s, where drugs and HIV were everywhere.
> 
> I'm not defending because masturbation. I'm defending them because they're people and respect is what you should give someone. Also, you seem fixated on the women, as if you solely have a problem with the women and not the men. Like they're fragile and unable to think for themselves and must be being abused by the guys. Maybe mixing with your puritan point of view that women should be a certain way for you. You'll say, "no, for God," but that's still for you.
> 
> Speaking of God: you think taking advice from a being that made incest the origin of humanity a good idea? Adam and Eve. Two sons: Cain and Abel. Abel is killed by Cain. Bible states Adam only had two sons. So that leaves Cain, the first murderer, and his mommy, Eve. Gross. Maybe the flood story? It's good for the kiddos, right? Yahweh, this loving god, drowns everyone except Noah, his wife, 3 sons and their wives. Cousins are basically half-brothers/sisters. Again, back to gross. God seems to think incest is the best course for humanity. Well, after genocide.


I get what you are saying also. But you missunderstood me. I am simple exposing the truth. I am not hating the person or adult actress/actor but their deeds. Because I cannot defend their deeds/sin from a spiritual perspective. When I know it destroys and brings nothing but misery. You can see the effects of the industry. So I support organisations who are trying to help the women and men who come from the industry and build a new life. Just like I cannot support any corrupt industry. But you only bring light to the subject when talking about it. I am not going to be the one who says 'go ahead and do it' when I know what they want to do/or are doing has a negative effect on the person. So that is why I have to say the bad sides of the industry so that others will know. But in the end they have to realize this themselves. Because the only way you can stop such an industry is by educating others and helping the people find a better way. Masturbating, being silent about it, supporting it, and giving the industry money isn't going to help. Like you said, imagine having someone you love working in this industry? It would break my heart. So I can imagine very well how it must feel for the family of those actors. Let's think about that and put ourselves in their place.

Yes you said it yourself, the stories are well known. And most adult stars died in the 90's and 2000's of an overdose or sexual disease. Because back then a lot of them had unprotected sex. You can look up the video on youtube where there is a long list of adult stars who commited suicide. So shouldn't we love our neighbor and warn them for this industry or tell about the dangers? If you knew, if you had information or experience in a field or a subject wouldn't you share your knowledge? Maybe I feel a religious duty or responsibility for others wich is abnormal in people's eyes? Could be, but I am just obeying my beliefs.

Sure I believe in loving others but I don't have to agree with their words or deeds right? Can you seperate the person from their deeds? I am just repeating what the Bible calls people who do unrighteous things or sin. They are called sinners, adult stars are called prostitutes or w*ores. Strong words, but this is how God feels about sin. He hates it. And so should we. We should love anything wich is holy, loving and righteous, and hate anything wich is hateful, wordly, destructive, and sinful. What use is any belief if you don't strongly believe in it and proclaim and share it? If you don't honestly tell the truth and delight in it? I believe in boldly proclaiming the truth even if people might not like it. Because the truth might hurt but it sets free and we shouldn't be ashamed of it. Do you understand?

Let's be honest the industry is controlled mostly by men. Mostly men are the company leaders, pimps, and cameramen. And mostly men are porn viewers.

And about God. That's a whole different subject. But I always say God is love. You only read what you read. I have a relationship with God. This is not so much about only a book or rituals, but about communication with God. Experiencing Him. 
You also don't know how many other people lived there during Cain an Abels time. Just because the Bible only tells about one story doesn't mean somewhere else there's no other people living. Also just because people do all kinds of evil doesn't mean God is ok with it.

With the flood the earth was cleansed of the nephilim (demonic/human hybrids) so obviously there was more creatures on earth.

You always seem to forget God has His righteous reasons for His actions. Everytime He does something it's out of love, protection and advancement of His creation. So I think it's righteous that God punishes sin and evil. God would not be loving if He allowed it. That would make Him evil and unloving. So either He punishes evil righteously or He doesn't and contradicts Himself.


----------



## Tetragammon

Persephone The Dread said:


> I read that post earlier and just didn't have the energy to even bother replying lol. I still don't.


I'm becoming fairly certain that this guy is just trolling. Let us not feed the trolls.


----------



## JustThisGuy

Persephone The Dread said:


> I kind of want to add this to my signature for the lols.


That's something you'd see in a nofap here or on Reddit or something to be silly and ironic. Yet here we are. Haha!

@*Royals* And speaking of "here we are," we've now come full circle.

Dictating how people think and act for their own good is paving a way to hell. You should know that proverb about good intentions, yeah? There have been many pornstars that've OD'd, committed suicide, etc. Yet the population of adult actors is way more. It's like many jobs. They can add to their own personal hell. Meaning there may be a predisposition going on. Could be a pornstar, could be an accountant that feels they've done nothing with their lives while surrounded by the monotony of crunching numbers and their days consist of the clicks of their and others' keyboards. Choosing life paths is up to the person because it's their life. What may be cozy or even fun for someone, can be a hell for someone else. "I'm good with numbers, the pay is good and it's nice," the accountant says before realization that it's not for them hits them later on. Sometimes much later. You're adding an unnecessary shame to someone because people are naked and _doing it_ and this book you read said a demigod will weep and that makes you superstitiously worry.



Tetragammon said:


> I'm becoming fairly certain that this guy is just trolling. Let us not feed the trolls.


I'unno. He could throw in more comedy if he is trolling. I'm just not sure.


----------



## Red October

Royals said:


> I get what you are saying also. But you missunderstood me. I am simple exposing the truth. I am not hating the person or adult actress/actor but their deeds. Because I cannot defend their deeds/sin from a spiritual perspective.





Matthew7:1-2 said:


> Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.


You needn't defend, nor condemn them, look to your own salvation and have trust in the Lord God. It is not the place of man to sit in judgement of the deeds of others, that is reserved for the divine.



Royals said:


> imagine having someone you love working in this industry? It would break my heart.





Psalm 34:19 said:


> The righteous person may have many troubles,
> but the Lord delivers him from them all.


If it breaks your heart, then there must be a greater reason as to why your heart had to be broken. Trust in the Lord God, all is done according to his perfect plan.



Royals said:


> They are called sinners, adult stars are called prostitutes or w*ores. Strong words, but this is how God feels about sin. *He hates it. And so should we.*





Proverbs 10:12 said:


> Hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers over all wrongs.





Mark 12:31 said:


> The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."


Hatred will avail us of nothing, this world is strange and mysterious, and filled with things even stranger yet. But it is all created according to HIS divine plan. We may have difficulty understanding it, but we should not presume to sit in judgement of the Lord's creation, nor to hate any part of it.


----------



## Carolyne

Royals said:


> Let's be honest the industry is controlled mostly by men. Mostly men are the company leaders, pimps, and cameramen. And mostly men are porn viewers.


Is there any industry where that isn't true as a general rule? Something interesting about porn is the number of women who are able to be independent, having their own sites or running their own production, and negotiating with other performers directly. From what I've read it seems like in porn there are definitely opportunities to be an entrepreneur, and in sex work more broadly there's even more opportunity for that. I'm not going to defend the entire porn industry, there's some awful things happening, there is a lack of regulation on many important things, there's rape, abuse, and covering it up. You seem to think that 1) every actress is in an awful situation or every company is abusive, and 2) that the answer to this is to get rid of the industry entirely. I can't agree with either of those.


----------



## Royals

Carolyne said:


> Is there any industry where that isn't true as a general rule? Something interesting about porn is the number of women who are able to be independent, having their own sites or running their own production, and negotiating with other performers directly. From what I've read it seems like in porn there are definitely opportunities to be an entrepreneur, and in sex work more broadly there's even more opportunity for that. I'm not going to defend the entire porn industry, there's some awful things happening, there is a lack of regulation on many important things, there's rape, abuse, and covering it up. You seem to think that 1) every actress is in an awful situation or every company is abusive, and 2) that the answer to this is to get rid of the industry entirely. I can't agree with either of those.


Shouldn't you as a woman be totally against this business? You don't seem to realize that just because there might be one good thing in an evil industry that it means that it's not all bad. Let me give an example: when a criminal or rapist helps an old lady across the street does that mean that person is a good person? Ofcourse not. Criminals can do good deeds every now and then (to ease their conscience) but does that mean the rest of their bad deeds is automatically removed? God sees the evil actions or good actions of a person and judged them based on that. Do you think when you stand before a judge as a murderer and you tell the judge 'judge I gave some money to the poor can you let me off?'. Ofcourse not, the judge would give the man his righteous punishment. So 1 right don't make 10 wrongs. So two wrongs don't make 1 right. I am just explaining the way the Bible looks at it.

And righteous true man or woman would be against men and woman degrading themselves them, abusing themselves and others, exploitating themselves and others. Not only biblically speaking.


----------



## Royals

Red October said:


> You needn't defend, nor condemn them, look to your own salvation and have trust in the Lord God. It is not the place of man to sit in judgement of the deeds of others, that is reserved for the divine.
> 
> If it breaks your heart, then there must be a greater reason as to why your heart had to be broken. Trust in the Lord God, all is done according to his perfect plan.
> 
> Hatred will avail us of nothing, this world is strange and mysterious, and filled with things even stranger yet. But it is all created according to HIS divine plan. We may have difficulty understanding it, but we should not presume to sit in judgement of the Lord's creation, nor to hate any part of it.


Nice, a spiritual conversation. Let me explain that I am not at fault and that what I am doing is perfectly normal from a biblical perspective.

*"Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?"* (1 Corinthians 6:2)

That first verse you used is popular with people to use because it takes away all reponsibility for others. Read further what Jesus also says:

*"**How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' while there is still a beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers's eye"* (Matthew 7:5)

Well, I removed the beam from my eye because i honestly told I am not perfect but i am a believer wich made me righteous by Christ and of God's people so I can see clearly.

*"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe"* (Romans 3:22)

*"The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free form the
law of sin and death"* (Romans 8:2)

So now:

*"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit*" (Romans 8:5)

And defending is righteous. Condeming not. I am only judging their deeds, not the person or their appearance, wich anyone can/needs to do. Form an judgement of things.

Also see that Jesus said you can never not judge:

*"Stop judgging by mere appearance, but use righteous judgement/judge correctly"* (John 7:24)

I expose sin to make people aware and lead them to God. Sin wich God hates and Jesus did all the time. And we should share the gospel so that is nothing unrighteous. But like you said the ultimate judgement of their lifes after death and their punishment/reward is not my job. I can only do my best to lead them away from sin. This is very important:

*"**I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent" *(Luke 15:7)

Salvation has made me love the things of God and hate the things of this world. I am on fire for God and to spread His word so that souls might be saved. Because the gospel is a message of hope and salvation.

I'm not sure why you quoted Psalm 34:19. Yes, I believe God has a plan for our lifes and that He can deliver us from our troubles. But the fact that I would be heart broken over this has nothing to do with a plan, but witth empathy and worry.

And you're right hate in general is not a constructive thing. But you seem to mix up things. The general concept of hate and hating evil things/sin. I am only talking about hate for evil and the things it brings forth (sin). Hate for the enemy (satan). And that is righteous hatred. We should understand the severity of sin:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart"
(Matthew 5:28)

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of si" (John 8:34)

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth deat" (James 1:14)

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4)

"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death"
(1 John 5:17)

People living in sin shouldn't judge others before they are made righteous. But God's people should, only out of love to correct them or show them a better way. If we didn't do it, who would?


----------



## Carolyne

Royals said:


> Shouldn't you as a woman be totally against this business? You don't seem to realize that just because there might be one good thing in an evil industry that it means that it's not all bad. Let me give an example: when a criminal or rapist helps an old lady across the street does that mean that person is a good person?


An industry is just an aggregate of all the companies and individuals in the field, I'm not going to judge one porn studio because of the actions of a different one. I could just as easily ask if just because some cops don't murder black people does that mean cops aren't all bad? If you want me to believe it's an "evil industry" you would need to show that porn is inherently abusive, that it can't be made without the abuse.


----------



## Royals

Carolyne said:


> An industry is just an aggregate of all the companies and individuals in the field, I'm not going to judge one porn studio because of the actions of a different one. I could just as easily ask if just because some cops don't murder black people does that mean
> cops aren't all bad? If you want me to believe it's an "evil industry" you would need to show that porn is inherently abusive, that it can't be made without the abuse.


But you are smart enough to find it out yourself right?

https://www.youtube.com/user/slubben/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/triplexchurch
https://www.youtube.com/user/PornHarms/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/FightTheNewDrug
https://www.youtube.com/user/AntiPornographyBlog

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+human+trafficking
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+addiction
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+effects
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+broken+marriages
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+harms
https://www.youtube.com/user/AntiPornographyBlog
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+statistics

And don't you think it's abnomral or wrong to do all sorts of sexual acts before camera and millions of people who can watch it? And that women and men degrade themselves in this manner?


----------



## Overdrive

Royals said:


> But you are smart enough to find it out yourself right?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/slubben/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/user/triplexchurch
> https://www.youtube.com/user/PornHarms/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/user/FightTheNewDrug
> https://www.youtube.com/user/AntiPornographyBlog
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+human+trafficking
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+addiction
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+effects
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+broken+marriages
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+harms
> https://www.youtube.com/user/AntiPornographyBlog
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=porn+statistics
> 
> And don't you think it's abnomral or wrong to do all sorts of sexual acts before camera and millions of people who can watch it? And that women and men degrade themselves in this manner?


Watch if god create porn ?


----------



## VanitysFiend

Royals said:


> And don't you think it's abnomral or wrong to do all sorts of sexual acts before camera and millions of people who can watch it? And that women and men degrade themselves in this manner?


I know there r serious issues with the porn industry but on a very basic level, ideally speaking, I don't think it's abnormal or wrong at all, and I don't find it degrading in and of itself (although not every genre is my cup of tea) as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. I find it mind bottling that their r so many people confident enough to suck off a stranger, on camera, for money when I can't even ask a girl out 

Just out of curiosity, going by your interpretation of your gods laws, what sexual acts do humans have the right to consent to?


----------



## Royals

VanitysFiend said:


> I know there r serious issues with the porn industry but on a very basic level, ideally speaking, I don't think it's abnormal or wrong at all, and I don't find it degrading in and of itself (although not every genre is my cup of tea) as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. I find it mind bottling that their r so many people confident enough to suck off a stranger, on camera, for money when I can't even ask a girl out
> 
> Just out of curiosity, going by your interpretation of your gods laws, what sexual acts do humans have the right to consent to?


But that is the spiritual problem I was talking about. A sinner/unbeliever in general tries to defend sin and immoral acts and sees them as normal. Because they judge and see the world according to themselves the world. I look at the world and judge it through God's views. Because His ways are righteous and holy. And the Bible says the devil has blinded the world so that they don't see. Because if you allow anything everything can be be accepted no matter how wrong or not. I don't think rape should be accepted, and wouldn't want my loved ones being a victim, then why do we allow women who love being raped being hurt by the adult industry? God and the Bible are opposite of the world, ego, selfishness, lust, materialism, sin.

It amazes me how people can have no problem with the adult indsustry and care too less that they don't think about the people involved. Also it's mostly unbelievers who don't say it's wrong, while believers would say otherwise. This convinces me God'moral laws are really needed. Ohterwise some people can think anything is normal. So that is why we need a moral standard, a holy authority to be objective and determine the moral truth for others. Someone in the world might think human sacrifice or murder is morally accepted but God always says it's wrong. So for that reason humans might be deceived by listening to this world or other humans.

I think the problem is with the addiction and sin of man. Because when someone is addicted ofcourse they don't dare to say the addiction is bad. They love it. But they deceive themselves because in reality it's destroying them and seperates them from God. That is why i can't trust someone living in sin or addicted to the flesh or following the world's ways because they are spiritually blinded. Because this world is lieing to us, and we have to see through it. That is why I let God lead me to all truth.

So to answer your question God has made man and woman for each other. To come together and not be seperated. The Bible says adultry or sexual immoral behavior is sinful. And certainly those who deceive and hate others and themselves. When you suppose to love others as yourself. And death, disease, rape, selfish focus on the lust, abuse, human trafficking, and demeaning behavior is all part of the business and destructive. So God loves any righteous, loving and holy behavior. The adult business is all about the flesh, the outer appearence, lust, nothing spiritual about it. And the spirit needs satisfaction also. That is why it's sad they don't see how it's killing them and are in need of a Savior.


----------



## Royals

Overdrive said:


> Watch if god create porn ?


God won't create such a destructive thing. He wants us to love others as ourselves. Remember when God created earth and human He said it was good. Until humans corrupted it by sin.


----------



## tea111red

Tetragammon said:


> Jesus H Christ, this guy again??? Give it a rest dude; nobody cares about your holy crusade.


nah....his posts are interesting and thought-provoking.


----------



## Worried Cat Milf

It's gonna be a no from me.


----------



## greentea33

Persephone The Dread said:


> I kind of want to add this to my signature for the lols.


I get so sick of hearing women talk about needing well endowed men that I always want to put "I heart small d!cks" in my signature. opcorn

Sorry for da derailment!

Back to the topic at hand........


----------



## truant

Royals said:


> And don't you think it's abnomral or wrong to do all sorts of sexual acts before camera and millions of people who can watch it? And that women and men degrade themselves in this manner?


I reject this entire premise. Other people don't have to share your prejudices. I think seafood is disgusting, but I don't think that people who eat it are degrading themselves. Elevating your opinion over the opinion of other people just because you believe that it's supported by some supramundane being is sheer narcissism.

_There is nothing immoral about trading sex for money._ Two consenting adults who see no problem with the transaction aren't degrading each other. It's only degrading if you, personally, feel that it is degrading. But just because you would find it degrading doesn't mean that other people will, and you're not in any position to judge them. It's _you_ who are degrading sex workers by making sex 'sinful' and shaming them for not complying with your personal preferences.

Sex commerce is dangerous precisely because there are so many people who share your attitudes. I see nothing immoral about sex work; consequently, I have no reason to treat a sex worker any differently than I would treat a dentist or a grocer. It's the people who believe that sex workers are degrading themselves that give themselves and other people silent permission to treat sex workers like human waste. Every time you call what they do degrading and sinful, you give a violent psychopath an excuse to beat a prostitute and a pornographer an excuse to exploit his actors. You turn the entire industry over to criminals and sex traffickers because honest people don't want to have anything to do with it, and you destroy the self-esteem of the workers, driving them to addiction and self-harm.

I pray that one day the moralists are forced to pay for all the evil they've perpetrated on humanity by forcing their petty personal preferences onto other people. People like you have destroyed my livelihood and driven me to the brink of homelessness. And why? Because you think other people are being naughty and you want to punish them. Go pray in the desert and leave people like me the hell alone.


----------



## springbreeze1

My problem with sex industry is more about exploitation, human trafficking.


----------



## Persephone The Dread

frankhassa said:


> I get so sick of hearing women talk about needing well endowed men that I always want to put "I heart small d!cks" in my signature. opcorn
> 
> Sorry for da derailment!
> 
> Back to the topic at hand........


I'm not sure if I like small dicks, are they small? Some probably are. Difficult to see perspective. Average possibly. I like cute dicks. But it depends and I'm usually more focussed on the overall effect. I found dicks offputting for a long time. I've seen hundreds of dicks which is pretty surreal - 99.9% of them online. We live in a weird time...

Yesterday I saw a photo of someone with a rainbow strapon and rainbow socks that was cute. Dicks should come in rainbow colours sometimes. Like shiny Pokemon. Rare, but possible. I don't think I'm serious, but it was a cute photo.


----------



## greentea33

It does always surprise me how many women I have heard in conversation say they are gross/unattractive....yet they've slept with so many men.

I don't find them gross but I'm also not obsessed with a man's d!CK size. Maybe I'm being hypocritical though....there are things I guess I find important.

Someone has a radio blaring and I can't think and type when I hear music playing.


----------



## Persephone The Dread

frankhassa said:


> It does always surprise me how many women I have heard in conversation say they are gross/unattractive....yet they've slept with so many men.
> 
> I don't find them gross but I'm also not obsessed with a man's d!CK size. Maybe I'm being hypocritical though....there are things I guess I find important.
> 
> Someone has a radio blaring and I can't think and type when I hear music playing.


I used to find all genitalia gross and unattractive visually but recently I seem to have developed somewhat of a dick fetish as everything I look at adult wise is well... This is definitely tmi for this section of the forum now. Some are prettier than others though. Also I'm usually more focussed on the action and guy's facial expressions I think. And if he's attractive, there are levels.

lol just remembered this youtube video I was watching recently where someone was talking about a bunch of other videos and in one of those this red pill type guy was describing dicks like 'it's ugly and manly nothing pretty about it OK? You're a man.' and **** like that and I was like 'I'm so turned off right now...'


----------



## greentea33

Lol....that's what you should put in your signature...I have a d!CK fetish.




Jk.


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Pretty sure that'd get removed, one time I had a Rick and Morty quote about Snowball's balls that got removed (removed) 






'where are my testicles Summer?'



Royals said:


> Shouldn't you as a woman be totally against this business? You don't seem to realize that just because there might be one good thing in an evil industry that it means that it's not all bad. Let me give an example: when a criminal or rapist helps an old lady across the street does that mean that person is a good person? Ofcourse not. Criminals can do good deeds every now and then (to ease their conscience) but does that mean the rest of their bad deeds is automatically removed? God sees the evil actions or good actions of a person and judged them based on that. Do you think when you stand before a judge as a murderer and you tell the judge 'judge I gave some money to the poor can you let me off?'. Ofcourse not, the judge would give the man his righteous punishment. So 1 right don't make 10 wrongs. So two wrongs don't make 1 right. I am just explaining the way the Bible looks at it.
> 
> And righteous true man or woman would be against men and woman degrading themselves them, abusing themselves and others, exploitating themselves and others. Not only biblically speaking.


It's not degrading you just think it is, stop projecting your personal opinions onto other people.

The bible is really old, and they cut out one of my favourite character's (Lilith. Spoiler: Lilith is probably Satan at least some of the time) You should start following Harry Potter now, it's popular and current.


----------



## Were

Interesting: "Religious Sites Carry More Malware Than Porn Sites, Security Firm Reports".

(http://www.pcworld.com/article/2546...re_than_porn_sites_security_firm_reports.html)


----------



## Red October

Persephone The Dread said:


> Yesterday I saw a photo of someone with a rainbow strapon and rainbow socks that was cute. Dicks should come in rainbow colours sometimes. Like shiny Pokemon. Rare, but possible. I don't think I'm serious, but it was a cute photo.


Hahaha, that does sound cute

[SPOILER=.] ...link? :b [/SPOILER]


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Red October said:


> Hahaha, that does sound cute
> 
> [SPOILER=.] ...link? :b [/SPOILER]


lol I'll send you a pm.

I really need to stop derailing threads


----------



## Royals

truant said:


> I reject this entire premise. Other people don't have to share your prejudices. I think seafood is disgusting, but I don't think that people who eat it are degrading themselves. Elevating your opinion over the opinion of other people just because you believe that it's supported by some supramundane being is sheer narcissism.
> 
> _There is nothing immoral about trading sex for money._ Two consenting adults who see no problem with the transaction aren't degrading each other. It's only degrading if you, personally, feel that it is degrading. But just because you would find it degrading doesn't mean that other people will, and you're not in any position to judge them. It's _you_ who are degrading sex workers by making sex 'sinful' and shaming them for not complying with your personal preferences.
> 
> Sex commerce is dangerous precisely because there are so many people who share your attitudes. I see nothing immoral about sex work; consequently, I have no reason to treat a sex worker any differently than I would treat a dentist or a grocer. It's the people who believe that sex workers are degrading themselves that give themselves and other people silent permission to treat sex workers like human waste. Every time you call what they do degrading and sinful, you give a violent psychopath an excuse to beat a prostitute and a pornographer an excuse to exploit his actors. You turn the entire industry over to criminals and sex traffickers because honest people don't want to have anything to do with it, and you destroy the self-esteem of the workers, driving them to addiction and self-harm.
> 
> I pray that one day the moralists are forced to pay for all the evil they've perpetrated on humanity by forcing their petty personal preferences onto other people. People like you have destroyed my livelihood and driven me to the brink of homelessness. And why? Because you think other people are being naughty and you want to punish them. Go pray in the desert and leave people like me the hell alone.


I went over this before so no reason to repeat myself. But what humans think is irrelevant, since every human says something different and you can't judge when being in sin because of spiritually blindness. Ofcourse you reject God's commandments because you want to live for yourself. No one forces you, you choose it yourself.
I value God's opinion over mines and others. I only share His word. And try to tell He has the ultimate authority and objective truth because He created it.

The wrong thing about trading sex for money is that you cannot sell your body and act like it's a piece of meat. It's prostitution. Your body is not for sale. You should treat your body with more self respect and love. Spiritually your body is owned by God since He created you so selling it cheap is a crime. So you also say that pimping is not immoral? Pimps who brainwash girls and use them as slaves to earn money for them?

What has this world coming to? It's becoming more immoral every day.

I am not talking about what I think. Not talking about making up own our rules and do whatever feels good.
That's a dangerous way to live. Read again, I am not degrading the person, I am talking about their job. Would you work as an adult actor? Would you like if a family member ws involved? If not, then why is it ok for others to do this? Double standard. You don't care about the emotional/spiritual/physical effects it has on the actors? I do.

Again, I wasn't saying sex is sinful, only perversion and immoral sex. Adultry, abuse, focus on the flesh, prostitution, impurity, pimping...that is considered immoral.

Also like I said, spiritually the only reason people defend or justify their wrongdoing or sin is because they are involved in it. So ofcourse they see nothing wrong with it.

So call it what you want. I simply am telling God's truth and it hurts you because you might feel guilty, shamed or personally attacked. You don't have to listen to me. If you wish to change for the better than listen, otherwise don't.

Luckily there are people like me who tell the truth about the adult industry and help others get out. Because thanks to them people are getting saved and spiritually transformed. It's lovely to see ex-actors telling how they found true peace, how much they hated the industry, and expose it for what it is. Do you rather see them caught up in that world, hurting and destroying themselves? Loving others as yourself is about serving and helping others in the name of love and righteousness. God wants us to take the responsibility to help those lost in darkness. Otherwise nothing will ever change or happen. I hope you start ot realize this.

So it's dangerous the industry goes on and people keep supporting it. Give my one good reason why you don't see nothing immoral about sex work? Even though you know the negative effects it has on people. Sure we should treat all people the same regardless of the job, but it's about what you give to them. Do you help them or not? If you would see, or know, an adult actress in tears all the time, being unhappy, on drugs, would you just ignore them and let them go on? Wouldn't you try to advise them to get help, or help them get out? We don't only live for ourselves, and our needs/demands/wants but for others. Just like Jesus came to serve not to be served. Were's your responsibility in this?

You can't blame others for trying to help them. You can only blame yourself if you are not willing to help them.
Jesus talked about this:

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me" (matthew 25:35-26)

"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me" (Matthew 25:40)

So He wants us to help those in need and caught up in the world.

You might not know it but people are saved through God's word all the time. So you need to share it so that people know and start to realize what they are doing.
Only by realizing what you are doing wrong can you truelly change. Change doesn't happen by keeping silent.
It is what it is. People need to realize when they are living in sin that they need a Savior. That sin is destructive.

You said it yourself, these pimps are violent psychopaths and pornographers exploit actors. They are the ones sinning don't blame me. That's real easy to do. Blame those who deceive and physically hurt others. Not me.

"You turn the entire industry over to criminals and sex traffickers because honest people don't want to have anything to do with it, and you destroy the self-esteem of the workers, driving them to addiction and self-harm"

Wow seriously? I don't have that power. Only God has the power to change it. It's funny that you accuse me of judging others but you do it yourself by blaming me for horrible actions. Blame those who actually are involved in this world not me.

I pray that one day people will realize they have to stop sinning and supporting evil inudstries wich ruin people's lives and exploit them for financial gain and selfish lust.

It's good that you pray but pray for righteous things to happen. God will listen to the prayers of the righteous.

It's amazing to see that you rather blame those who try to change the world by loving moralistic teachings than the actual criminals. You must hate morality and God's word so much.

Again, stop blaming me, I didn't do anything but trying to awaken lost souls and help them realize God's word.

Believers actually mean well, and truelly want to see sinners get saved and experience true joy and happiness. If we all loved others as ourselves like this their would be no evil in this world.

I leave you alone, leave me alone. Practice what you preach. I am not the one answering you. Stop mis-intrepreting my words and what I am trying to say.
I have only good and loving intentions.


----------



## truant

Royals said:


> I went over this before so no reason to repeat myself.


That's all you religious people do: repeat yourselves. For thousands of years you've been saying exactly the same things.



Royals said:


> But what humans think is irrelevant, since every human says something different and you can't judge when being in sin because of spiritually blindness.


You're just another human, therefore your opinion is also irrelevant. I'm not 'spiritually blind' because your definition of 'spirituality' is just your opinion, and therefore just as irrelevant as every other human opinion. But it's you who turns the blind eye to this fact. You pretend that your opinions have the force of God behind them, but they don't. You're just a narcissist. I at least have the humility to admit that my opinions are the opinion of a human being.



Royals said:


> Ofcourse you reject God's commandments because you want to live for yourself. No one forces you, you choose it yourself.


Ofc I want to live for myself. I have no interest in being anyone's slave. I think for myself; I don't let other people tell me how to think.



Royals said:


> I value God's opinion over mines and others. I only share His word. And try to tell He has the ultimate authority and objective truth because He created it.


It's just your opinion that God is real. I reject your opinion. God's 'words' mean nothing to me, because they're just your words in disguise, and your words mean nothing to me beyond stating your personal opinion as a human being.



Royals said:


> The wrong thing about trading sex for money is that you cannot sell your body and act like it's a piece of meat. It's prostitution.


Every person who uses their body to make a living is prostituting their body. Should police officers refuse to let criminals treat their bodies like meat? That's what's happening when they get shot, isn't it? What about athletes? What about dancers? What about the priest who uses his body to perform religious services in exchange for a living? Singling out sex work as being different than other forms of work is arbitrary. Therefore, I reject this argument.



Royals said:


> Your body is not for sale. You should treat your body with more self respect and love. Spiritually your body is owned by God since He created you so selling it cheap is a crime.


It's up to me to decide in what ways I will sell the services of my body. Sex is not inherently disrespectful, nor is it non-loving. It becomes so through our choices and our opinions about those choices. A Christian wife who submits to sex with her husband even though she doesn't want to have sex with him is a far worse sinner than a prostitute who enjoys having sex with her clients and being paid for it.

God gave us freedom as well as our bodies; if selling your body is a sin for which you can be punished, then he hasn't given us freedom, has he? I don't follow inconsistent belief systems.



Royals said:


> So you also say that pimping is not immoral? Pimps who brainwash girls and use them as slaves to earn money for them?


Where did I say that pimping was not immoral? Oh, that's right, I didn't.

Pimps exist because people have been taught that sex work is shameful and degrading; since people don't want to be shamed by others, they won't voluntarily engage in sex work. So pimps and criminal organizations step in and take over. Pimps exist because there are people who share your beliefs; without your beliefs, there's no reason for pimps to exist, since you wouldn't have to force or brainwash people to be sex workers. Like any other service, supply and demand would dictate everything. If people are willing to pay a lot of money for sex, some women will willingly do it; but they won't do it if they feel that it's shameful and degrading, so instead slave traffickers force other women to do it against their will.

It's the same reason why johns and pimps feel they have a right to beat sex workers: because they look down on those women as being degraded and therefore not worthy of respect. Because I do not consider sex work degrading, I have no reason to look down on those women (the way you do) and therefore I have no justification for treating them any differently than I would treat anyone else. When's the last time you heard of a man beating his dentist because being a dentist was shameful and degrading?



Royals said:


> What has this world coming to? It's becoming more immoral every day.


Yeah, it was much better when people like you were burning people like me at the stake. Ah, the good old days, eh? I'm sorry humanity is learning from its mistakes.



Royals said:


> I am not talking about what I think. Not talking about making up own our rules and do whatever feels good.
> That's a dangerous way to live.


This is exactly what you're doing. You can point your finger at God all you want; you're the one deciding what God's word is, and you push his word on others because it makes you feel good. Even though, imo, promoting your views makes the world a more dangerous place.



Royals said:


> Read again, I am not degrading the person, I am talking about their job. Would you work as an adult actor? Would you like if a family member ws involved? If not, then why is it ok for others to do this? Double standard.


If I had the body for it, yes, I would. And I wouldn't do anything I didn't want to do. Given the right conditions (conditions which are impossible in our culture because people like you exist) I might be a sex worker, too. Since I don't consider sex work immoral and I have a lot of sympathy for men who struggle to find sexual partners. I'm a pretty empathetic person. I don't consider it degrading to give pleasure and emotional comfort to another human being who struggles to make those connections in other ways.

Your problem is that you can't separate the act of sex work from the environment which people like you have created: the violent, degrading environment of sex work in a world that believes that sex work is degrading. The beliefs that you promote are the beliefs which turn sex work into a 'vice' and which put it in the hands of criminals instead of putting it in the hands of honest, law-abiding professionals. Imo, sex work shouldn't be considered any differently from other forms of therapy.



Royals said:


> You don't care about the emotional/spiritual/physical effects it has on the actors? I do.


No, it's quite the opposite. I do care, which is why I'm interested in solving this problem once and for all, and which is why I refuse to consider sex workers degraded human beings who need to be saved. If they've been forced to do something they don't want to do, by all means they should be rescued. But I believe that most of the people who find themselves in that situation have been forced into it because people have attitudes like yours in the first place. Many of the people working in the sex industry are there voluntarily; I respect their choices and I certainly wouldn't emotionally abuse them by telling them that their actions are wrong and sinful.



Royals said:


> Again, I wasn't saying sex is sinful, only perversion and immoral sex. Adultry, abuse, focus on the flesh, prostitution, impurity, pimping...that is considered immoral.


I don't really care what your opinion is about what is or isn't immoral. Every person decides for themselves what is right based on the consequences it has for themselves and other people. You Christians think my whole life is a sin, because I'm trans and I'm bisexual. I'm sure a lot of the things I enjoy you'd consider 'perversions'. But since you're just human beings, like me, and your opinions have no more value than mine do, I'm free to evaluate for myself what is or isn't immoral and reject your opinions as ignorant and misguided. The only rule in my book is: "Do no harm".

If you're physically, emotionally, psychologically harming and manipulating others (things which religious people do all the time, I might add) then it's wrong. Sex between consenting adults, and exchanging sex for money, is not immoral imo, since there are no victims and both people benefit from the exchange.



Royals said:


> Also like I said, spiritually the only reason people defend or justify their wrongdoing or sin is because they are involved in it. So ofcourse they see nothing wrong with it.


Just as religious people justify the abuses of their faith. They excuse themselves for bullying (even murdering) other people because they've deluded themselves into believing that they have the best interests of others at heart.

I don't believe in sin; that's a Christian concept. You're the one who sees my actions as sinful, not I. I'm not justifying or defending anything; I'm explaining my position.



Royals said:


> So call it what you want. I simply am telling God's truth and it hurts you because you might feel guilty, shamed or personally attacked. You don't have to listen to me. If you wish to change for the better than listen, otherwise don't.


You're not telling God's truth; you're telling me your opinion, which you're trying to bolster by saying it's God's. I don't believe it for a second. I don't feel guilty or shamed; why should I? I don't think my beliefs are guilty or shameful. What I feel is indignant that another human being is trying to make me feel guilty or ashamed over behaviors which are not guilty or shameful.

Cont...


----------



## truant

Royals said:


> Luckily there are people like me who tell the truth about the adult industry and help others get out. Because thanks to them people are getting saved and spiritually transformed. It's lovely to see ex-actors telling how they found true peace, how much they hated the industry, and expose it for what it is.


Congratulations on helping people escape the toxic environment that beliefs like yours have created for them. Just like you're helping gay people, right?



Royals said:


> Do you rather see them caught up in that world, hurting and destroying themselves? Loving others as yourself is about serving and helping others in the name of love and righteousness. God wants us to take the responsibility to help those lost in darkness. Otherwise nothing will ever change or happen. I hope you start ot realize this.


I care a great deal about others. Which is why I'm trying to demolish the destructive environment which your beliefs are creating for those people. And why I'm trying to help you escape from your self-imposed darkness.



Royals said:


> So it's dangerous the industry goes on and people keep supporting it. Give my one good reason why you don't see nothing immoral about sex work?


Trading sex for money is neutral. There is no morality attached to it. Having sex with someone you don't want to have sex with _is_ immoral. Which means that millions of husbands and wives are engaged in immoral sex all the time because they feel obligated to keep their partner happy. But a woman who wants to have sex with a man because she wants the things that his money will give her and finds it a fair trade is not being immoral. If she was forced to have sex with him, by a pimp for example, that would be immoral, and the blame would reside with the pimp, and also the john if the john knows the true circumstances. But since women are only forced into sex work because it's considered immoral by people like you, that wouldn't happen in a world where sex work was treated as a respectable profession like other professions. People would do it voluntarily and crime would lose its hold over it.



Royals said:


> Even though you know the negative effects it has on people. Sure we should treat all people the same regardless of the job, but it's about what you give to them. Do you help them or not? If you would see, or know, an adult actress in tears all the time, being unhappy, on drugs, would you just ignore them and let them go on? Wouldn't you try to advise them to get help, or help them get out? We don't only live for ourselves, and our needs/demands/wants but for others. Just like Jesus came to serve not to be served. Were's your responsibility in this?


Ofc I'd try to help her. I'd help anyone in distress if I could. Whether it's because their porn director is exploiting them, or their religious parents are trying to 'save them'. I fight evil wherever I find it.

The problem is that you've made the problem about the entire industry because you find sex work itself degrading; you're just using pimps and pornographers as canon fodder in your argument against paid sex. By contrast, I'm looking at specific individuals in the industry and attitudes toward sex work in general, because I don't find sex work itself inherently degrading. If I knew a porn star who loved her job it would be very immoral of me to try to talk her out of doing sex work (ie. trying to 'save her') since I'd be meddling in her life and inflicting emotional abuse on her with my judgments.



Royals said:


> You might not know it but people are saved through God's word all the time.


Yes, in much the same way they're 'saved' by any other kind of narcotic. Much easier to let someone else do your thinking for you ('God'). Anything to kill the pain of having to be real and think for yourself and accept responsibility for your conclusions. My conclusions might be wrong, but they're mine and I accept responsibility for them. I don't pass the buck, and I don't ask zombie hippies to take the wheel.



Royals said:


> So you need to share it so that people know and start to realize what they are doing.


I will never stop encouraging people to question everything and think for themselves. If it leads them to abandon their religion, so be it.



Royals said:


> Only by realizing what you are doing wrong can you truelly change.


You keep spelling 'truly' wrong. Please change.



Royals said:


> Change doesn't happen by keeping silent.


Exactly. Which is why I write so many huge posts on SAS.



Royals said:


> It is what it is. People need to realize when they are living in sin that they need a Savior. That sin is destructive.


Some people need to realize that 'sin' is a product of Christian dogma with no factual existence. You can talk about sin all you want. It won't suddenly become real to non-Christians. There are no saviors. You need to save yourself.



Royals said:


> You said it yourself, these pimps are violent psychopaths and pornographers exploit actors. They are the ones sinning don't blame me. That's real easy to do. Blame those who deceive and physically hurt others. Not me.


I blame them for their violence and exploitation. And I blame people like you for creating the conditions in which people like that flourish.



Royals said:


> "You turn the entire industry over to criminals and sex traffickers because honest people don't want to have anything to do with it, and you destroy the self-esteem of the workers, driving them to addiction and self-harm"
> 
> Wow seriously? I don't have that power. Only God has the power to change it. It's funny that you accuse me of judging others but you do it yourself by blaming me for horrible actions. Blame those who actually are involved in this world not me.


I think I've explained this adequately by this point.



Royals said:


> I pray that one day people will realize they have to stop sinning and supporting evil inudstries wich ruin people's lives and exploit them for financial gain and selfish lust.


As I pray people eventually learn how their opinions create hostile conditions for others.



Royals said:


> It's good that you pray but pray for righteous things to happen. God will listen to the prayers of the righteous.


Sorry, tried that. I prayed for years and years. Never had a single prayer answered. Fortunately, I eventually realized that I was wasting my time.



Royals said:


> It's amazing to see that you rather blame those who try to change the world by loving moralistic teachings than the actual criminals. You must hate morality and God's word so much.


What's amazing to me is that you'd be surprised that I'd have a problem with a group of people who want to destroy people like me. I don't hate morality; I just consider Christian morality to be inferior to my own morality. I'm not going to slum just so I can join your club.



Royals said:


> Again, stop blaming me, I didn't do anything but trying to awaken lost souls and help them realize God's word.
> 
> Believers actually mean well, and truelly want to see sinners get saved and experience true joy and happiness. If we all loved others as ourselves like this their would be no evil in this world.


I'm sure most believers do mean well. But non-Christians don't want or need your help. I love other people enough to respect their decisions and accept that they may have opinions about things that differ from mine because their experiences differ.



Royals said:


> I leave you alone, leave me alone. Practice what you preach. I am not the one answering you. Stop mis-intrepreting my words and what I am trying to say.
> I have only good and loving intentions.


But that's the problem, isn't it? Christians don't leave anyone alone. They meddle and they meddle and they meddle. All my life Christians have been interfering with me because they refuse to respect me as an individual with my own values. I never started this argument; Christians did. If Christians left people like me alone, they'd never hear a peep out of me.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> The wrong thing about trading sex for money is that you cannot sell your body and act like it's a piece of meat. It's prostitution. Your body is not for sale. You should treat your body with more self respect and love. Spiritually your body is owned by God since He created you so selling it cheap is a crime. So you also say that pimping is not immoral? Pimps who brainwash girls and use them as slaves to earn money for them?


All due respect, a woman's body has always been sold for sex. In the Bible, it was sold by her father, to her husband, to be used to create children, through sex.

The difference with sex workers (in an ideal world) is that the *woman* chooses who she sells her body to; not her father, or the future husband with the right amount of dowry.


----------



## Red October

Hey guys, um, just got finished talking to God, he contacted me and wanted to clear up a few things

apparently he's totally cool with the whole sex and porn thing, so no need to keep stressing out about it. He said it's all been a big misunderstanding, due to unreliable scribes in the distant past, translation errors, and misheard comments. crazy, right?

but yeah, this all comes from the big man himself, so it's 100% legit and overrides any previous instructions or books that you thought might have been his divine word

Just sharing some divine truth with you all, have a nice day


----------



## Tetragammon

Red October said:


> Hey guys, um, just got finished talking to God, he contacted me and wanted to clear up a few things
> 
> apparently he's totally cool with the whole sex and porn thing, so no need to keep stressing out about it. He said it's all been a big misunderstanding, due to unreliable scribes in the distant past, translation errors, and misheard comments. crazy, right?
> 
> but yeah, this all comes from the big man himself, so it's 100% legit and overrides any previous instructions or books that you thought might have been his divine word
> 
> Just sharing some divine truth with you all, have a nice day


Does anyone else find it funny that just ONE quick sermon from God himself, in person, could solve so many of humanity's petty squabbles? Why oh WHY does a "perfect" being have to act ENTIRELY through intermediaries? Seriously?! I mean if he'd just show his face and tell EVERYONE once and for all exactly what "his" word IS, or at least which religion is actually "his," we'd all be so much better off. And those of us who need actual evidence to believe in anything would finally be convinced.

But no. God can't show up. Because we MUST take it on "faith," according to the theists. IMO God's total absense is the best argument in favor of atheism: he can't show himself because he doesn't exist.

Meh. In the gorgeous words of Tyler Glenn, "I found myself when I lost my faith." Good riddance!


----------



## Carolyne

TheWelshOne said:


> All due respect, a woman's body has always been sold for sex. In the Bible, it was sold by her father, to her husband, to be used to create children, through sex.
> 
> The difference with sex workers (in an ideal world) is that the *woman* chooses who she sells her body to; not her father, or the future husband with the right amount of dowry.


Capitalism will always ruin everything, but generally this is my feeling on the topic. Sex work, and particularly independent or woman-run companies, are important to women's freedom, and I'd rather women decide how, if, and when to sexualize themselves than have the government or a quasi-government religious institution do so.


----------



## Royals

Atheist do the same. But their opinion also often changes and God's truth stays the same so who is more reliable to trust? Human says: love you, I hate you. God says: I always love you.

I am an imperfect human yes. But I look at talk through a biblical perspective. Because I am a believer. I follow God's word and not man's. You do otherwise. This is two totally different ways of looking at things. The Bible says: 

"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4)

"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand"

So

"Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see"

I speak the words of God. I just proved it. I can back all the things up and quote from the Bible.what I am talking about.

Again, the Bible syas the total oppposite:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin" (John 8:34)

"We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin" (Romans 6:6)

"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire" (James 1:13-14)

"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1)

Mine, and most people's opinion. You do know God is real just only cannot see and reject God's word because you want to live for yourself and not God. You don't want to be responsible to His authority and good morals.
So you think you know better than Almighty God. I choose to admit I don't know everything and that God is greater in humility. Living for ourselves is what destroys the world. Egoism. We need to serve and love others like Jesus did on earth.

What? I don't get your comparision. Police officers or criminals don't get paid to shoot an officer. They are not stripping naked and having sex with each other. Athletes are treating their body like a temple. They live healthy, their body is pure, they can be spiritually and mentally healthy that way. They have totally different aims and goals than prostitutes. Dancers and priests also. Bad examples. There is a reason that Jesus told Mary Magdalene to 'go and sin no more'.

God's word:

"None of the daughters of Israel shall be a prostitute, and none of the sons of Israel shall be a prostitute. You shall not bring the fee of a prostitute or the wages of a dog into the house of the Lord your God in payment for any vow, for both of these are an abomination to the Lord your God"(Deuteronomy 23:17-18)

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians: 6: 9-11)

I don't think it's totally up to you to use your body the way you want since harming it is not good.

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body" (1Corinthians 6:19-20)

Ehh no, no sinner is worse than the other. God doesn't make a distinghuisment. But some sins are worse than the other:

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body" (1 Corinthians 6:18).

Yes, He has given us free will but there's consequences for our behavior. When you know it has bad consquences you shouldn't do it:

"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap" (Galatians 6:4)

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23)

Pimping is also prostitution and those women 'choose' being pimped so why not accept this? Pimps exist because they invented a tricky sexist way of exploitation women for money. God or believers didn't tell them to do that. They want the pimps to get saved and live a righteous life.

Again it doesn't matter what people want or what feels good, doesn't make it morally right. For human anything can be bought or permitted but:

"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? " (Matthew 16:26)

"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them"

Is what the pimps and porn ceo's should hear.
So if you don't like to be pimped or abused don't pimp and abuse others. If you wouldn't want to have sex for money don't approve of it. I think going to prostitutes is immoral and them selling their bodies is also so I can't agree with them doing that either. It's not loving to watch others (your nieghbor) getting hurt by others. It's loving to care for them, help them, and love them as yourself.

"Say what you do and do what you say"

Why do you keep on acusing me for things I don't do or wouldn't do? I don't blame you for the sins all people commit. That would be ridiculous. I don't hate or persecute people. I only try to help and love them.

I literally quote from scripture. So not deciding anything.
It makes me feel good to see people understand His word and live by it. To see people get saved. Why is 'loving others as yourself', helping them, telling them the truth and leading them to God a bad thing? Would you rather see people die in their sins than save them?

"Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them" (Ephesians 5:3)

"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality.." (Galatians 5:19)

How can you really empethic when you would treat your body like that? And don't care that others (might) emotionally and spiritually suffer because of their sex work? Why do worldy people justify their own wrongdoings and that of others? Because it feels good? So what? Should we rape or kill others just because it feels good?

Sin and sexual immorality creates it's own world and consequences. Emotional pain, spiritual emptiness, addiction, suicide, self hate, abuse... All bad consequences of people in this business. By exposing the truth people will be warned to stop doing that work or not being part of it. Your body is not created for this purpose. It's a holy temple of God. So abusing your own body is a sin.

You use a nice tactic of reversing God's word constantly. By putting the blame on His people wich only try to help and save people from this business. Don't you care that women from this business have become ex-addicted lustful material slaves of the flesh? How many women and girls have been saved from trafficker's and male abuse/dominance. At least be happy for them. That you all sex work therapy shows how less you know about the emotional and spiritual harm it causes to a lot of women and men.

They only get saved by realizing what they are doing is wrong and degrading. Why need to change when you think there's nothing wrong with what you are doing? Yes, most women in the prostitute business are trafficked. So I am happy they get saved. Also wich woman one day wakes up and think 'hey I want to be a prostitute!'. They force themselves to do it for financial reasons. Not because they enjoy it so much. Nonsense, I don't force no one to get in the business, I want them to get out. Where am I saying that I support or promote women going into the sex business? You are twisting my words to make it look like i'm the bad guy.

They hurt themselves by sexuality immorality not me. And people who support them and pay them are hurting them also. No, you wouldn't tell them the truth so that they might get saved. You know I would feel guilty to know that I could have said or done something and not do it. Because I would be supporting unrighteous behavior.

I told you God's opinion about what's immoral. But you won't listen to Him either. You consider what's right but how do you know it's actually right? I wouldn't do anything wich hurts me or others. So I cannot support immoral actions.

I am a believer in God and Jesus not a Christian. I don't think you are a bad person no but I don't agree with your views and lifestyle. And the Bible condemns it because it's not holy, pure and unnatural.

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error" (Romans 1:26-27)

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

But why care about this as long as you can do what you want and indulge in all sorts of immoral behavior. Why care about your soul and eternal peace?

God considers them perversions. And you don't care about God so why even listen. Keep being your own god. Do you really believe in doing no harm? The sex business causes a lot of harm and damage.

You say God's word harms you but it sets more people free. Is it because it is harming to you because it's the truth and you feel guilty or condemned by God?. Well it's the first step to repentance. Don't you know that appeasement and justifying sin and immoral acts is far more dangerous and hurtful? Instead of saying 'Be careful it might hurt, there is also better ways', would you say 'Go ahead nothing wrong about it, just do what you like and feels good without consequences'. See two totally different approaches.


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## Overdrive

Holy **** this guy.......


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## Red October

Matthew 4:19 said:


> And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."


'fishers of men' is clearly a euphemism for prostitutes, so I'm pretty sure god is fine with it


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## Royals

The first way might actually save people and change their mind, the second is unrighteous and damaging.

You still don't see that even consentual sex out of marriage is immoral and considered adultry. So that behavior has a big effect on those people. The guilt, shame, focus on lust and money and spiritual emptiness it might create is damaging. There is nothing damaging about knowing that there is a way out, a loving God who wants to save them.

Sure, believers who commit crimes in God's name are no better. I am just saying that people can be deceived and spiritually blinded by sin. Once that becomes a problem most of the times it's already too late. So that is why we need to throw them a lifeline.

Sin, is just wrongdoing, anything wich goes against God's word and has a bad effect on humans.
You are constantly defending sex workers, and consenting sex. Even while I told from God's view what kind of an abomination it is. And how much it destroys lifes. You still think it's ok.

Everything I said I can support by Biblical texts. i quote verses to support what I say. I am simply talking about sin and how it seperates us from God. And that we need to realize this.

'But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear" (Isiah 59:2)

Understand that God loves you. But since He is a holy God He cannot tolerate sin. Maybe you need to start to believe more. With me the Holy Spirit convicts me of my sins so that I won't do them. It's a good thing to listen God.

'But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come" (John 16:13)

"But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin"
(John 16:7-11)

I would tell gay people the truth also. That their sin seperates them from God. There's gay Christians who don't commit sexual immoral sin. So there's no excuse for a gay not to believe.

You don't understand that you're fighting the wrong cause and in the wrong way. Don't fight the gospel and God's people. Fight the criminals who really commit these crimes. You think someone who preaches a loving word more criminal than an actual criminal. That I don't get.
I have found the way, truth and life. I don't live in sin no more. Again you say the complete opposite what the Bible says:

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God"
(John 3:19-21).


"Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life" (John 8:12)

"Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life" (John 8:12)

If trading sex for money is so neutral why do we and the Bible call such people prostitutes/w*ores/s*uts and is it known those people have no respect for themselves to sell their bodies cheap? Because it's not normal. Normal sex is between a man and women and freely shared. You don't have to pay. You can't sell your body nor your soul. 
Those who have sex for money also don't want to have sex with them, they only care about the money. If it wasn't for money they wouldn't have sex. So because it's all about the money/materialism it becomes bad. Since you cannot do anything for money. Jesus makes it very clear:

"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money" (Matthew 6:24)

So seeling yourself that cheap is considered immoral and lustful. Women should aspire to be more than prostitutes.
Prosititutes are forced also. Either trafficked or because they need money. The money is the objective not the sex.

Women are forced into sex work because of financial reasons and because they have other emotional issues. Not because someone advises them to not do it.
You can't make something unrighteous, righteous. No you have to heal it first. No prostitute does this work voluentarily.

"Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mark 2:17)

You cannot help people and support them at the same time. And you see nothing wrong with 'consentual' sex work. You need to realize God doesn't hurt anyone, it's the hardness of a man's heart and the unwillingness to see their sins are killing them.

"They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart" (Ephesians 4:18)

The whole sex industry is immoral. I know and seen enough to know it is. I heard it from the actors own mouths. If you know the job would hurt her wouldn't you try to help? Nothing immoral about that. She would thank you later. If you saw a bully beat up a kid, or a friend drinking a bottle of vodka and falling down, or shooting heroin and dying would you say 'go ahead'. I don't understand this passive behavior. We have to care enough about others to protect them from destrutive behavior. 

So you would be reponsible for your sins to God also?
That's how you feel about Jesus the Savior of man 'a zombie hippie?'.

So you think it's better to 'do what you want' and not become a better person because of their religion? And that we love others and take responsibility for them and not only our lifes? 

And that is why I keep spreading God's word so that people might be saved. So can't blame me while you also keep spreading your truth.

But you cannot save yourself. "God so loved the world He send His Son so that whoever believes in Him may not perish but have everlasting lige". We have to understand that since sin came into the world by corruption of human we need a Savior to take it away.
And Jesus came for that reason to set us free. So you cannot save yourself. Certain guilt, shame or negative thinking always stays because it comes and goes so we need other addictions, materialism, lust, and selfish pleasures to hide/flee from God and cover up our emptiness inside. 

Well, stop blaming me. I have so far only helped people. It makes no sense to blame me for something others created.. I ddin't create prostitution, or trafficking. I help people get out. 

Pray that you might get saved and obey God's ways. That you truelly get set free.

"We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him" (John 9:31)

So first pray to get saved and truelly change. Because He doesn't hear those who live in sin and pray. Those are hypocrites.

I understand that you have a hard time with those kind of people. But I have learned to love my neighbor and enemy. And through God I can do that better. What's so bad about Christian morals? They only teach to love yourself and others. And not do anything wich hurts you. Do you know any better morals? Do you know better than God? Are you only mad at Christianity or God because a group of Christians by name hate you? They have to be responsible to God. Forgive them. Just look at what Christ/God says and any believe who does the same.

I am not trying to convert you at all. Just sharing God's word and explaining from a biblical point of view because I am a believer. It's good to know you love me but then don't blame me for doing something I don't do. And don't say my religion or God is some kind of fairytale and Jesus a zombie hippie. Ocourse you can say those things but practice what you preach  It's not my intention to hurt anyone. I am simply telling what's in the Bible. And some will hate it and others will love it. 
So that depends on what kind of person they are, not that God's word is automatically wrong.

I am only answering others if they talk to me. If someone wants to know more about God or my faith, or speaks untruths, I will inform them or defend myself and God. 
Also I might sometimes preach the gospel because I want to shed a positive light unto others. And I know it saves because out of experience I have seen it and people told to me so.

It also wasn't mine intention to begin a religious debate, I simply share my religious views on the issue. 

I think it's wrong to condemn or hurt others based on how they are. So, I apologize if believers or Christians might give a bad example of God or their faith. A believer should be loving. But also righteous and truthful. We are allowed to judge things and form an opinion. And I believe also we should disaprove of unrighteous and immoral things. Again, some might agree some won't. But I never want to attack you or anyone. I use biblical names and the way the Bible describes human's behavior. So don't take it personal if it doesn't apply to you. 
I only stand for the truth. God's truth. And I am not ashamed to share it.


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## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> All due respect, a woman's body has always been sold for sex. In the Bible, it was sold by her father, to her husband, to be used to create children, through sex.
> 
> The difference with sex workers (in an ideal world) is that the *woman* chooses who she sells her body to; not her father, or the future husband with the right amount of dowry.


Yes, but just because it happens doesn't make it right (in God's eyes). It's weird to me, we care if we hurt ourselves or others but not a holy God and heavenly Father. Remember that Jesus told Mary the unclean woman to 'go and sin no more'. Rules change.

Yes in an ideal world. Maybe when a new earth comes?


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## Furiosa

"Read again, I am not degrading the person, I am talking about their job. Would you work as an adult actor? Would you like if a family member ws involved? If not, then why is it ok for others to do this? Double standard. You don't care about the emotional/spiritual/physical effects it has on the actors? I do".

Actually two of my best friends used to be escorts, I didn't judge them for it. The way I saw it, it was no different than somebody doing any other job in the world, except they were getting paid a hell of a lot more money than most. You seem to make it sound like people in the adult industry are all damaged goods that need "saving", when that's not the case. Ever thought that people in the business might actually enjoy what they are doing, and do it because they want to? Both my friends worked independently, they weren't coerced into the business by pimps, they werent dope fiends, or people that had been trafficked into the country; they genuinely had a lot of passion for the work they did and they enjoyed it.

"The wrong thing about trading sex for money is that you cannot sell your body and act like it's a piece of meat. It's prostitution. Your body is not for sale. You should treat your body with more self respect and love. Spiritually your body is owned by God since He created you so selling it cheap is a crime."

Who are we to say what someone can or cannot do with their body, they are free to do with it as they wish. And who said anything about selling it cheaply, have you seen how much money people in the adult business can earn?


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## Red October

Royals said:


> I only stand for the truth. God's truth. And I am not ashamed to share it.


Lot's of people stand for God's truth

problem is, each of them has a different version of God's truth

and conveniently, God's truth always just so happens to match up perfectly with that that person already thinks and believes :lol


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## Milco

Royals said:


> I only stand for the truth. God's truth. And I am not ashamed to share it.


How fortunate that you stand for absolute truth and even have an imaginary a divine buddy to back up whatever your opinion happens to be as the absolute and unopposable truth.
That definitely isn't extreme arrogance and contempt for other human beings and their experiences.


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## springbreeze1

What if a person's point of view changes over time? Of course he'll still be representing god's will through out. So would he realize that his "god's will" changes over time? Would he go like "hmm this God changes his mind pretty frequently, but no worry, I'm able to follow up with him precisely every single turn."

Or will he be like "OK so when I said I was representing god's will a year ago, I was actually wrong. But make no mistake now I'm truly representing god's will."



Red October said:


> Lot's of people stand for God's truth
> 
> problem is, each of them has a different version of God's truth
> 
> and conveniently, God's truth always just so happens to match up perfectly with that that person already thinks and believes :lol


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## Persephone The Dread

> I would tell gay people the truth also. That their sin seperates them from God. There's gay Christians who don't commit sexual immoral sin. So there's no excuse for a gay not to believe.


 @Royals

What about all the Christians that condemn gay people? (I assume you're one of them, but I can't be sure if you're condemning gay people who have sex or gay people who are prostitutes because you condemn prostitutes,) Tbh Royals, there are plenty of reasons for everyone to not believe in your god or follow your religion. If a woman wants to wear trousers she can't, if a man wants to wear a dress he can't, it's a sin to lie about virginity (how convenient for the men who created this religion,) having sex while menstruating is bad, can't eat pork, can't wear clothing made of more than one fabric, believing in other Gods as well (how narcissistic and tyrannical,) mixing meat and dairy (Cheeseburgers are evil.)

'waiting too long before consuming sacrifices'

Human sacrificies? Well sometimes the phone rings half way through.

Not to mention all the people that God killed for ridiculous reasons. 'But that's mostly the old testament which we don't follow' convenient, but the new testament covers less time, has it's own (we're still waiting for this,) 'Ragnarok storyline' and the Christian god is supposed to be 'immutable in character' so it's not like he changed.

You're sort of carrying out the wishes of a bunch of thousands of year old 'alpha' men who wanted to control you and women for their benefit using magic books. Are you really going to fall for that? People are still using it for their own nefarious purposes, but those guys who wrote it are dead.



> You can't make something unrighteous, righteous. No you have to heal it first. No prostitute does this work voluentarily.


That's like saying no YouTuber who makes money off videos is doing it voluntarily.


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## Persephone The Dread

> "The wrong thing about trading sex for money is that you cannot sell your body and act like it's a piece of meat. It's prostitution. Your body is not for sale. You should treat your body with more self respect and love. *Spiritually your body is owned by God since He created you so selling it cheap is a crime."*


 @Royals wait God is a pimp now too?


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## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Yes, but just because it happens doesn't make it right (in God's eyes). It's weird to me, we care if we hurt ourselves or others but not a holy God and heavenly Father. Remember that Jesus told Mary the unclean woman to 'go and sin no more'. Rules change.
> 
> Yes in an ideal world. Maybe when a new earth comes?


I'm sorry, I don't understand. I gave you a *Biblical* event and you said it doesn't make it right in God's eyes?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

The Bible states that a woman has so little control over her own body that if a man rapes her, she must be married to him for the rest of her life. And she must be paid for.

Likewise Deuteronomy 25:5-6 says this:

"If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel."

A sonless widow is not permitted to marry anyone but her brother-in-law, and she must bear him children, regardless of her feelings on the matter.

Even marital rape (of either person) is condoned by 1 Corinthians 7:3-5:

"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer."

I'm confused as to which part God is not endorsing.


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## Carolyne

Royals said:


> I would tell gay people the truth also. That their sin seperates them from God. There's gay Christians who don't commit sexual immoral sin. So there's no excuse for a gay not to believe.


Being told that you have to live the rest of your life never being allowed to fall in love, never being allowed to have a family, sex, or a partner, having to run to confession every time you notice someone attractive, and having to pretend none of that bothers you, all for something that no one can actually prove even exists, is a pretty good reason not to believe. Are you one those Christians who thinks gays can be cured, or are you one of the ones who thinks gays need to just stay celibate? One of those is wrong, the other is just cruel.


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## RenegadeReloaded

Royals said:


> I am a believer. I follow God's word and not man's. You do otherwise. This is two totally different ways of looking at things. The Bible says: [.............]


So proof that God exists or that he is right is God's words from the Bible ?

That is like saying: I am right because I say so myself, in a book.

I can understand why the counterarguments for the Bible just don't reach you. I was like you once. I too heard counterarguments, and although they were logical, I refused to accept them because if I did, that meant I was going to burn in hell for eternity, so my life was at stake. Or in the best scenario, I ignored them because I had something to gain: heaven, eternal life and happiness, so again, my whole life depended on me not wanting to believe them. I guess it's the same for you. The bias is very strong, so strong it completely alters your entire behavior and beliefs, you practically see it as a life or death situation.

For me the arguments kept coming and coming till they were overwhelming. Oh yeah, and many years of unanswered prayer contributed too, like another user here mentioned he tried.

Many people feel better believing, their life is better when they get close to God, I can understand that, I talked to many like this. But also many people feel better when they let religion go. So it's a personal choice based on personal experience.


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## truant

I'm not going to respond to all of that, @Royals . This debate has gone on long enough. I'm never going to accept 'God/the Bible' as an authority in anything, and you're never going to believe that humans should have the freedom to think for themselves. It's obvious that you don't understand my position. But you're wrong if you think I don't care; I care a great deal about other people. Which is why I will continue to attack slavery wherever I see it, physical or intellectual.

Everyone has the right to think for themselves and decide how they feel about their own experiences. And frankly I'm always a little shocked when I encounter people who believe otherwise.


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## Royals

Furiosa said:


> "Read again, I am not degrading the person, I am talking about their job. Would you work as an adult actor? Would you like if a family member ws involved? If not, then why is it ok for others to do this? Double standard. You don't care about the emotional/spiritual/physical effects it has on the actors? I do".
> 
> Actually two of my best friends used to be escorts, I didn't judge them for it. The way I saw it, it was no different than somebody doing any other job in the world, except they were getting paid a hell of a lot more money than most. You seem to make it sound like people in the adult industry are all damaged goods that need "saving", when that's not the case. Ever thought that people in the business might actually enjoy what they are doing, and do it because they want to? Both my friends worked independently, they weren't coerced into the business by pimps, they werent dope fiends, or people that had been trafficked into the country; they genuinely had a lot of passion for the work they did and they enjoyed it.
> 
> "The wrong thing about trading sex for money is that you cannot sell your body and act like it's a piece of meat. It's prostitution. Your body is not for sale. You should treat your body with more self respect and love. Spiritually your body is owned by God since He created you so selling it cheap is a crime."
> 
> Who are we to say what someone can or cannot do with their body, they are free to do with it as they wish. And who said anything about selling it cheaply, have you seen how much money people in the adult business can earn?


It's significant that mostly males react and try to think all sorts of excuses to justify such an evil industry. Do you just ignore the evil aspects of it on purpose? Pretend you don't see? Or do you love porn so much that you're not willing to give it up? What's the real reason? Might there be a reason your friend *were *escorts? If they enjoyed it so much why did they stop? Maybe 1 in 10 'enjoys' working in this business, like your friends. The other 99% is either forced or wants to make quick money. And it's a emotionally, spiritually and physically tiring job. Why else choose such a job with such a bad stigma wich shames your family and all those around you? The money. Is that a good enough reason to set aside your morals and sell your body cheap for money wich is something you can't take with you when you die?

Biblically everybody needs saving. Especially when you are a sinner and live in sin.
Yes, you live by the world I live by God's word, different lifestyles. I care about others and how they destroy their spirit. Caring about others is loving others as yourself is about. I believe my body is owned/created by God.


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## Royals

Red October said:


> Lot's of people stand for God's truth
> 
> problem is, each of them has a different version of God's truth
> 
> and conveniently, God's truth always just so happens to match up perfectly with that that person already thinks and believes :lol


No matter what human's truth is of God, God's truth remains the same. I listen to God not humans, so I don't see the problem. No, I believe in God and follow His word, not my own.


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## Royals

Milco said:


> How fortunate that you stand for absolute truth and even have an imaginary a divine buddy to back up whatever your opinion happens to be as the absolute and unopposable truth.
> That definitely isn't extreme arrogance and contempt for other human beings and their experiences.


How often do I have to repeat myself? I stand for God's truth.I share, believe and preach God's truth. When I write I always quote from the Bible and also share my own beliefs. But on this subject I only tell what God thinks is immoral and wrong. I speak from a biblical point of view.


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## Royals

springbreeze1 said:


> What if a person's point of view changes over time? Of course he'll still be representing god's will through out. So would he realize that his "god's will" changes over time? Would he go like "hmm this God changes his mind pretty frequently, but no worry, I'm able to follow up with him precisely every single turn."
> 
> Or will he be like "OK so when I said I was representing god's will a year ago, I was actually wrong. But make no mistake now I'm truly representing god's will."


If my opinion goes against God I cannot call myself a believe anymo. Buy how can I not agree with God's word? Loving others as yourself, not murdering, not stealing, not cheating, not worshipping false idols, not being jealous etc... These are good rules to live by right?

God stays the same, He never changes His will, we do. I try to live God's commandments, so doing what He asks of me. I either agree with what He says or not. It's that simple. If you can't follow God or don't agree with what He says then don't. If you can, do it.


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## Overdrive

Royals said:


> If my opinion goes against God I cannot call myself a believe anymo. Buy how can I not agree with God's word? Loving others as yourself, not murdering, not stealing, not cheating, not worshipping false idols, not being jealous etc... These are good rules to live by right?
> 
> God stays the same, He never changes His will, we do. I try to live God's commandments, so doing what He asks of me. I either agree with what He says or not. It's that simple. If you can't follow God or don't agree with what He says then don't. If you can, do it.


You know that god can be anything.
Have you ever thought about how God look like ?.


----------



## Furiosa

Red October said:


> 'fishers of men' is clearly a euphemism for prostitutes, so I'm pretty sure god is fine with it





Royals said:


> It's significant that mostly males react and try to think all sorts of excuses to justify such an evil industry. Do you just ignore the evil aspects of it on purpose? Pretend you don't see? Or do you love porn so much that you're not willing to give it up? What's the real reason? Might there be a reason your friend *were *escorts? If they enjoyed it so much why did they stop? Maybe 1 in 10 'enjoys' working in this business, like your friends. The other 99% is either forced or wants to make quick money. And it's a emotionally, spiritually and physically tiring job. Why else choose such a job with such a bad stigma wich shames your family and all those around you? The money. Is that a good enough reason to set aside your morals and sell your body cheap for money wich is something you can't take with you when you die?
> 
> Biblically everybody needs saving. Especially when you are a sinner and live in sin.
> Yes, you live by the world I live by God's word, different lifestyles. I care about others and how they destroy their spirit. Caring about others is loving others as yourself is about. I believe my body is owned/created by God.


Quite the contrary, I completely agree that there is a dark side to the adult business, like most things in life really. And when it comes to things like people being trafficked to work into the adult business, underage performers, people that are forced into it through drugs, pimps and so on, then absolutely, we should try to help these vulnerable people. I am totally against anything like that. All I was trying to point out was that despite this, this doesnt apply to the entire industry, yes there are the bad eggs, but on the other hand there are genuinely people out there who enjoy working in the business and do so because they wan't to, not because they are forced to.

I personally don't love porn that much no, when you already have a partner, well you don't really have a need for that sort of thing.

I honestly can't say why exactly they chose those career paths, we never really discussed it in detail. I'm guessing it was because of how highly it payed, for relatively easy work. Plus they were both very outgoing and confident, who knows, maybe they just loved to work with people and make them happy, so the adult business seemed like a good place for them.

One of them still works in the business, and has done so now for over ten years, so it musnt be that bad of a job if they have stuck at it for that long. The other just decided to focus their efforts elsewhere and start a new career, I think she became a mobile beauty therapist if I remember rightly.


----------



## Royals

Persephone The Dread said:


> @*Royals*
> 
> What about all the Christians that condemn gay people? (I assume you're one of them, but I can't be sure if you're condemning gay people who have sex or gay people who are prostitutes because you condemn prostitutes,) Tbh Royals, there are plenty of reasons for everyone to not believe in your god or follow your religion.
> 
> 'waiting too long before consuming sacrifices'
> 
> Human sacrificies? Well sometimes the phone rings half way through.
> 
> Not to mention all the people that God killed for ridiculous reasons. 'But that's mostly the old testament which we don't follow' convenient, but the new testament covers less time, has it's own (we're still waiting for this,) 'Ragnarok storyline' and the Christian god is supposed to be 'immutable in character' so it's not like he changed.
> 
> You're sort of carrying out the wishes of a bunch of thousands of year old 'alpha' men who wanted to control you and women for their benefit using magic books. Are you really going to fall for that? People are still using it for their own nefarious purposes, but those guys who wrote it are dead.
> 
> That's like saying no YouTuber who makes money off videos is doing it voluntarily.


I think it is wrong to condemn gay, other believers, atheist whoever it is! Because we are not called to do that. We need to step to people in need with love like Jesus did. That doesn't mean we should mirror unrighteous people's behavior but tell them about God's goodness. Like I said, we are allowed to judge the world and it's actions, so unrighteous sinful behavior, but not the person him/herself.
God judges not by outer appearnce but looks at the heart, the Bible says. So I need to follow in that example.

You have to see the difference between proclaiming God's righteous truth so that people might be saved and hateful condeming people. 
I try to do the first. But often to the world all believers do is 'condeming'. Maybe because they don't like what's preached, or feel attacked, or it rings too close to home or whatever. It's depends on the person. But if an atheist would say prositution is sinful or hurting women I wouldn't say he was condeming prostitutes but only telling the truth. Do you udnerstand that is subjective? So I have a different view on that since now I not think like the world anymore but by God's word. So since my spirit has changed my look on the world also has changed. I now run after the righteous things and to help others through God's love.

Who says women can't wear trousers? The Bible does say women should dress respectfully wich I agree with. And women respect themselves more who dress civilized and not naked (not talking about Sharia law). Women who do that, and even share their body with complete strangers and/or viewers don't. They only want attention. Not for their spirit/character but only their body, the flesh. So that's one of the reasons I can't support tha sex industry. It portrays women/men as a piece of meat, as if only their bodies matter. So that's why I believe we should trea our body as a temple of the Holy Spirit. Treat it with respect and good care. I also believe you shouldn't be ashamed to say you're a virgin. I think it's another sign of self respect and discipline that you don't sleep around with just anyone.

Most of thoes rules you mentioned are meant for the Israelites/Jews not gentiles. But still I don't think these are bad commandments. You have to understand God wanted His people to be pure and clean (spiritually, physically) so that they stayed holy obeying God. Certain things made them unclean and impure.so for their own good God forbid certain things. If you love someone you want the best for them.
You do know that 3000 years ago the world, culture and rules where different than now right? So why put those rules in the persective of that time and not now? But the 10 commandments still count today.

You don't know how many people God killed do you? And incest and human sacrifice are ridiculous reasons to you? Luckily God unlike humans is fair and righteous and punishes crimes. Actually any normal society does that also.

There's not much to follow from the OT except the commandments. And Jesus came to show what the Father was like so if you need a picture on how loving and merciful God really is look at His Son who knows the best.

You also don't seem to get that my belief is about a spiritual relationship with God, not only about a book. You only read and intrepret it ofcourse because you have no relationship or experience with God. Right? God is an eternal spirit so He exists outside the Bible. You are like 'hey I want to get to know this person I read a book about them. Not meet them in person and see what he/she is like'. Well too bad, because God can be reached easily through words or prayer, and through Jesus.

Have you thought about easily (emotionally) unstable or naive people getting deceived or brainwashed? Scammers, bullies and other kinds of sociopaths or psychopaths do it all the time. People take advantage of your weaknesses. Once money and power are involved it's easy to use people. And apparently enough young girls or women (from other countries) are easily deceived because they fall for the lies of trafficker or pimp who promised them a glorious life elsewhere. Until they find out their dream didn't was like they thought it would be.


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## Royals

Persephone The Dread said:


> @*Royals* wait God is a pimp now too?


:no It just means since we are created in God's image He gave us a body we have to take good care of it and cannot simply do anything wich feels good or harm it. Because our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit.


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## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Who says women can't wear trousers?


I know that Persephone can deal with all this themselves, but honestly do you even read your own holy book?

Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."


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## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> I'm sorry, I don't understand. I gave you a *Biblical* event and you said it doesn't make it right in God's eyes?
> 
> Deuteronomy 22:28-29 "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
> 
> The Bible states that a woman has so little control over her own body that if a man rapes her, she must be married to him for the rest of her life. And she must be paid for.
> 
> Likewise Deuteronomy 25:5-6 says this:
> 
> "If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel."
> 
> A sonless widow is not permitted to marry anyone but her brother-in-law, and she must bear him children, regardless of her feelings on the matter.
> 
> Even marital rape (of either person) is condoned by 1 Corinthians 7:3-5:
> 
> "The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer."
> 
> I'm confused as to which part God is not endorsing.


:no quite. Always use the original texts and language to see what it says. And put it in the right cultural context of that time, not today's modern world.

Regarding, Deuteronomy 22:28-29. It doesn't say rape but takes her and lies with her. It can be seducing, or voluntarily not against her will. So not forced. They are discovered having intimate sex so they should stay together. Because in that time if you were sexually involved with another before marriage her bride-price would have been in jeopardy. So it was all a shame and status thing. God promotes marriage and not divorcing orsexual impurity.

About Deuteronomy 25:5-6. Legally, the firstborn son from this union officially was the deceased husband's son. This wasn't considered incest since the first husband was deceased. The Hittites practices a similar law. But keep in mind that if only if the widow married her deceased husband's brother she could keep the widow's property within the family. She had the risk of losing it all if she married outside the family. Also, it was discouraged the man refused (although he could) because the woman had the advantage of keeping the property and he had the risk being shamed by her and her family. Certain partricarchal rules and honor issues were very important in that time.

1 Corinthians 7:3-5: says nothing but that man and women should share their bodies wich each other in an equal holy marriage. Paul was more talking from a spiritual point about equallity, not at all condoning rape.


----------



## Royals

Carolyne said:


> Being told that you have to live the rest of your life never being allowed to fall in love, never being allowed to have a family, sex, or a partner, having to run to confession every time you notice someone attractive, and having to pretend none of that bothers you, all for something that no one can actually prove even exists, is a pretty good reason not to believe. Are you one those Christians who thinks gays can be cured, or are you one of the ones who thinks gays need to just stay celibate? One of those is wrong, the other is just cruel.


You talk from a human sexual fleshly point of view. In a relationship with God the spirit is what matters and what truelly satisfies. God can substitute any fleshly desires and fulfill you spiritually. Enough people feel satisfied and whole in God. If you cannot discipline yourself and live for God and your spirit then don't do it. If a gay person can't live a disciplined life then they won't. If it goes against God's word and is unnatural then don't obey Him. It's your own choice. God didn't say you can't fall in love, love is created by Him. He doesn't forbid to have a family either. Enough gays adopt a child. Finding someone attractive is no sin, looking with lust at someone is. Understand spirituality is not only about the flesh and lust, it's about spiritual matters. Fcous on holy righteous godly things not earthly and egoistical, material things. And confession is only a catholic thing, we ask forgiveness to God.

I am not sure on the 'born gay' issue yet. I know God created man and woman for a reason and not two men, and that He forbids men laying with men. A lot of gays become gay later on in life and choice to be that way.But also if you are born gay can you help being that way? And being born sinful from a biblical perspective goes against God's word so I believe it's the sin not the person who seperates himself from God. So it is possible to live a holy life and not sin.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Always use the original texts and language to see what it says. And put it in the right cultural context of that time, not today's modern world.


I'm well aware of the cultural context of 2000 years ago. And also of the thousands of years before that, before the Word of God was even written. So here's my question: When did it change? How can you honestly say 'Well it was the culture back then' and then add 'But we still have to follow the other bits'? You can't pick and choose based on what is now law/culture because that law/culture was not written in the Bible, and therefore is not God's will.


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## Royals

RenegadeReloaded said:


> So proof that God exists or that he is right is God's words from the Bible ?
> 
> That is like saying: I am right because I say so myself, in a book.
> 
> I can understand why the counterarguments for the Bible just don't reach you. I was like you once. I too heard counterarguments, and although they were logical, I refused to accept them because if I did, that meant I was going to burn in hell for eternity, so my life was at stake. Or in the best scenario, I ignored them because I had something to gain: heaven, eternal life and happiness, so again, my whole life depended on me not wanting to believe them. I guess it's the same for you. The bias is very strong, so strong it completely alters your entire behavior and beliefs, you practically see it as a life or death situation.
> 
> For me the arguments kept coming and coming till they were overwhelming. Oh yeah, and many years of unanswered prayer contributed too, like another user here mentioned he tried.
> 
> Many people feel better believing, their life is better when they get close to God, I can understand that, I talked to many like this. But also many people feel better when they let religion go. So it's a personal choice based on personal experience.


Believing out of fear is wrong. God should take away all fear and give security of His presence and the afterlife. Did you have the gifts of the Spirit? Did you stop sinning and obeying God? I believe in God because His word makes sense to me and He proved His love to me by transforming me into a new person. When I was saved I noticed the change. I felt the Holy Spirit working inside of me, and shining through me. I can't make you understand if you don't feel it. And why should I try? You have made up your mind. God makes me better understand life and know myself. And He made me a better person and purified me. Anyone would be a fool togo back to their old ways. Who wants to be sick again when they is healthy? And who doesn't want to live forever in God's presence.

I am the opposite, the more I see the indcredible facts, wonders, beauty and detail of creation, the universe and everything around mey belief become stronger. Generally speaking if imperfect humans arguements are stronger than the Holy Spirit's conviction your faith wasn't that strong to begin with. That is why people fall away, by distractions of the world and problems. I have learned to overcome them. Unanswered prayers are no reason for me to stop believing either. Do you know how long the Israelites had to wait to be freed from slavery? But they kept faithful, patient and trusting in God's ways. I pray with faith and believe I receive things before I get them. I than God daily for what He might bring or has done. I look at the little things wich go well and have big expectations. I learned when I do this I am ready and more open to receive.

It's only because of wrong or unfulfilled expectations, wrong interpretation of the Bible, misconceptions or no true conversion that most people fall away. Because if someone had a true salvation experience and conviction of the Holy Spirit they would never doubt God.


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## truant

I know I said I was done, but as you know, I never could resist temptation.



Royals said:


> *Have you thought about easily (emotionally) unstable or naive people getting deceived or brainwashed?* Scammers, bullies and other kinds of sociopaths or psychopaths do it all the time. People take advantage of your weaknesses. Once money and power are involved it's easy to use people. And apparently enough young girls or women (from other countries) are easily deceived because *they fall for the lies of trafficker or pimp who promised them a glorious life elsewhere*. Until they find out their dream didn't was like they thought it would be.


I think about this every time I think about religion. Apparently, enough men and women are easily deceived because they fall for the lies of priests who promise them a glorious life elsewhere (Heaven).

Many of those "scammers, bullies and other kinds of sociopaths or psychopaths" are attracted to religion because they know how easy it is to twist "God's words" to suit any purpose. Once they've convinced people they have God on their side, they can be as evil as they like. Which is why we have religious wars and terrorism, inquisitions and murder for apostasy and heresy, gay and trans people being executed, and brainwashing like conversion therapy.

It's religious thinking that also leads to shaming people who sell sex, which leads to all of the evils of sex trafficking and criminal prostitution -- evils created by religion, which don't need to exist, and which cause untold harm. We don't need to talk about all the marital rape religion has justified over the course of thousands of years. I shudder to even think about it. Would you date a rapist? If you're religious at any point in history up until recently, there's a good chance you were married to one.

The difference between a sex trafficker and a priest is that one takes the freedom of your body and puts it into the service of others and the other takes the freedom of your mind and puts it into the service of religion. Ofc, most priests are as deluded as the people they deceive so we protect their insanity under 'freedom of religion'.

Tell me, Royals: what's the difference between a pimp who threatens a prostitute with a beating if she doesn't put out and a priest who threatens a wife with eternal damnation if _she_ doesn't put out? Answer: the prostitute has a chance of being saved.


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## Red October

Royals said:


> No matter what human's truth is of God, God's truth remains the same. I listen to God not humans, so I don't see the problem. No, I believe in God and follow His word, not my own.


or at least your version of his word :lol


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Royals said:


> I think it is wrong to condemn gay, other believers, atheist whoever it is! Because we are not called to do that. We need to step to people in need with love like Jesus did. That doesn't mean we should mirror unrighteous people's behavior but tell them about God's goodness. Like I said, we are allowed to judge the world and it's actions, so unrighteous sinful behavior, but not the person him/herself.
> God judges not by outer appearnce but looks at the heart, the Bible says. So I need to follow in that example.
> 
> You have to see the difference between proclaiming God's righteous truth so that people might be saved and hateful condeming people.
> I try to do the first. But often to the world all believers do is 'condeming'. Maybe because they don't like what's preached, or feel attacked, or it rings too close to home or whatever. It's depends on the person. But if an atheist would say prositution is sinful or hurting women I wouldn't say he was condeming prostitutes but only telling the truth. Do you udnerstand that is subjective? So I have a different view on that since now I not think like the world anymore but by God's word. So since my spirit has changed my look on the world also has changed. I now run after the righteous things and to help others through God's love.


If you're telling other people that their natural behaviour or thoughts are sinful and going to lead them to hell, then you are basically condemning them. If it's subjective, then you can't be telling 'the truth' because it's subjective. You are telling people your opinion, which they'll either agree or disagree with.



> Who says women can't wear trousers? The Bible does say women should dress respectfully wich I agree with. And women respect themselves more who dress civilized and not naked (not talking about Sharia law). Women who do that, and even share their body with complete strangers and/or viewers don't. They only want attention. Not for their spirit/character but only their body, the flesh. So that's one of the reasons I can't support tha sex industry. It portrays women/men as a piece of meat, as if only their bodies matter. So that's why I believe we should trea our body as a temple of the Holy Spirit. Treat it with respect and good care. I also believe you shouldn't be ashamed to say you're a virgin. I think it's another sign of self respect and discipline that you don't sleep around with just anyone.


As TheWelshOne pointed out it's directly referenced in the bible that you can't wear the clothes of the opposite sex.

I think that really depends on the porn, and the opinions of the person viewing it really. I don't view people in porn as just 'pieces of meat' and I'd say the facial expressions/body language/reactions of the people are more important to me than anything else. Of course it's still acting, and I do like certain body parts as well, but I'm not just looking for that reason.



> Most of thoes rules you mentioned are meant for the Israelites/Jews not gentiles. But still I don't think these are bad commandments. You have to understand God wanted His people to be pure and clean (spiritually, physically) so that they stayed holy obeying God. Certain things made them unclean and impure.so for their own good God forbid certain things. If you love someone you want the best for them.
> You do know that 3000 years ago the world, culture and rules where different than now right? So why put those rules in the persective of that time and not now? But the 10 commandments still count today.


They're still mentioned in the Bible. Yes exactly, it was written a long time ago, but a lot of people are still following the same old rules, yourself included...



> You don't know how many people God killed do you? And incest and human sacrifice are ridiculous reasons to you? Luckily God unlike humans is fair and righteous and punishes crimes. Actually any normal society does that also.


He killed a lot of people for stupid reasons, he did a lot of other messed up stuff too. Check out the binding of Isaac (no not the video game, although I'd recommend that too, it's a fun game,) and was generally pretty wrathful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac



> There's not much to follow from the OT except the commandments. And Jesus came to show what the Father was like so if you need a picture on how loving and merciful God really is look at His Son who knows the best.


You can choose to ignore parts of the bible, but that seems as arbitrary as choosing to ignore the new testament imo.



> You also don't seem to get that my belief is about a spiritual relationship with God, not only about a book. You only read and intrepret it ofcourse because you have no relationship or experience with God. Right? God is an eternal spirit so He exists outside the Bible. You are like 'hey I want to get to know this person I read a book about them. Not meet them in person and see what he/she is like'. Well too bad, because God can be reached easily through words or prayer, and through Jesus.


OK then have you personally heard from God that the things you think are wrong, are wrong?



> Have you thought about easily (emotionally) unstable or naive people getting deceived or brainwashed? Scammers, bullies and other kinds of sociopaths or psychopaths do it all the time. People take advantage of your weaknesses. Once money and power are involved it's easy to use people. And apparently enough young girls or women (from other countries) are easily deceived because they fall for the lies of trafficker or pimp who promised them a glorious life elsewhere. Until they find out their dream didn't was like they thought it would be.


Yeah that's how cults indoctrinate people, how Hitler rose to power, and why you follow the Christian religion. Obviously some women are forced into prostitution against their will, or end up as a sexworker due to desperation, but not all of them. It is not inherently bad/sinful, it depends on the circumstances (although it's never sinful because sin is a silly concept.) Same with porn.


----------



## Milco

Royals said:


> Always use the original texts and language to see what it says. And put it in the right cultural context of that time, not today's modern world.


And the passages condemning homosexuality are actually about Greek cults, that believed sex (between the male members) was a way of getting closer to god.
Perhaps you should take your own advice?

So I'll repeat..


Royals said:


> How often do I have to repeat myself? I stand for God's truth.I share, believe and preach God's truth. When I write I always quote from the Bible and also share my own beliefs. But on this subject I only tell what God thinks is immoral and wrong. I speak from a biblical point of view.


No, you don't.
You stand for your own beliefs and hide behind some projection of god, that isn't real, and that's completely irrelevant to everybody else.
The hateful views you're spreading are your own, and neither invoking god nor the bible is going to make them any better or more right.
It is vain and arrogant to claim that you stand for some divine truth. Take responsibility for your views or keep them to yourself.


----------



## Furiosa

Royals said:


> You talk from a human sexual fleshly point of view. In a relationship with God the spirit is what matters and what truelly satisfies. God can substitute any fleshly desires and fulfill you spiritually. Enough people feel satisfied and whole in God. If you cannot discipline yourself and live for God and your spirit then don't do it. If a gay person can't live a disciplined life then they won't. If it goes against God's word and is unnatural then don't obey Him. It's your own choice. God didn't say you can't fall in love, love is created by Him. He doesn't forbid to have a family either. Enough gays adopt a child. Finding someone attractive is no sin, looking with lust at someone is. Understand spirituality is not only about the flesh and lust, it's about spiritual matters. Fcous on holy righteous godly things not earthly and egoistical, material things. And confession is only a catholic thing, we ask forgiveness to God.
> 
> I am not sure on the 'born gay' issue yet. I know God created man and woman for a reason and not two men, and that He forbids men laying with men. A lot of gays become gay later on in life and choice to be that way.But also if you are born gay can you help being that way? And being born sinful from a biblical perspective goes against God's word so I believe it's the sin not the person who seperates himself from God. So it is possible to live a holy life and not sin.


Do you honestly believe that God, or any other religion for that matter, can be a complete substitute both mentally and physically for a partner in life? For someone who's gay, it's not just all about sex. What about all the other things that come with a loving relationship? Having someone to nurse you when your unwell, someone who's there when you get home from work and has made you dinner, someone to build a home and possibly a family with, someone to share holidays and see the world together, someone to laugh and cry with, someone to grow old with, I could go on. As God isn't a physical person here with us in reality, he cannot provide us with these, so is a gay person simply expected to forego all of this in life? That's a hell of an expectation and sacrifice if you ask me.

What exactly is a "disciplined" life for a gay person? Let me guess, a life of complete celibacy, and I'm guessing maturbation is also out of bounds? Well I suppose if you were born with the sex drive of a wet rag, then this might be a viable option.

If we were to turn this on it's head hypothetically, what if I were to say to you (I'm guessing your straight), you are never allowed to have sex with a woman in life, not even once. In fact you cannot do anything sexual with a woman, ever. You can also never have a girlfriend or wife. On top of this you can also never have lustful thoughts about women, nor can you ever masturbate. And if you do any of these, when you die, you will be eternally damned. How would that make you feel? Pretty crappy? Not nice is it, and that's exactly how gay people have it when it comes to religion and sexuality.


----------



## AllTheSame

@*Royals* I don't really have much to add that hasn't been said already (or said by me in any of the other threads you've tried to take over). I just think it's very sad, and kind of shocking and surprising the effect religion seems to have on some people. To some people, religion is like a drug. You really don't realize how much it's distorting your perceptions, your thought process. But even worse than that, I've never been able to figure out why some people who overdose on this religious self-righteousness fail to see how close-minded, how judgmental and sanctimonious, and preachy and smug they've become, all in the name of "religion". Though, that's really what you're hiding behind, imo, to justify how close-minded you are. People don't hear you because that's really what your "message" is all about imo. I haven't come across many people on this forum that seem to be more complacent, more full of themselves than you seem to come across.

Hmmmm....I wonder how it's possible to have so, so many people disagreeing with you, for so many people to have an issue with you coming into threads for the sole purpose of condemning people to hell in the name of your religion. I wonder why there are so many? Could it be that you're not thinking clearly, and your hiding behind your religious beliefs to call people out for not living their lives as YOU see fit? Could it be that all these people might have a point? Or....(I can't wait to hear your answer on this, the anticipation is just killing me)....or do you think you're right and all these people have some issue with you personally, or that all these people are just wrong?


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## springbreeze1

By creating this thread, I have created an abomination . I deserve some sort of divine punishment.


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## Carolyne

AllTheSame said:


> Hmmmm....I wonder how it's possible to have so, so many people disagreeing with you, for so many people to have an issue with you coming into threads for the sole purpose of condemning people to hell in the name of your religion. I wonder why there are so many? Could it be that you're not thinking clearly, and your hiding behind your religious beliefs to call people out for not living their lives as YOU see fit? Could it be that all these people might have a point? Or....(I can't wait to hear your answer on this, the anticipation is just killing me)....or do you think you're right and all these people have some issue with you personally, or that all these people are just wrong?


We're a bunch of sinners, we're addicted to our sins. I'm just too hooked on that ***** to hear God's words. I still don't understand his response to me, it almost sounds like he thinks God approves of gays getting married and adopting kids...but those married gay parents should still not sleep with each other.


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## Carolyne

Royals said:


> You talk from a human sexual fleshly point of view. In a relationship with God the spirit is what matters and what truelly satisfies. God can substitute any fleshly desires and fulfill you spiritually. Enough people feel satisfied and whole in God. If you cannot discipline yourself and live for God and your spirit then don't do it. If a gay person can't live a disciplined life then they won't. If it goes against God's word and is unnatural then don't obey Him. It's your own choice. God didn't say you can't fall in love, love is created by Him. He doesn't forbid to have a family either. Enough gays adopt a child. Finding someone attractive is no sin, looking with lust at someone is. Understand spirituality is not only about the flesh and lust, it's about spiritual matters. Fcous on holy righteous godly things not earthly and egoistical, material things. And confession is only a catholic thing, we ask forgiveness to God.
> 
> I am not sure on the 'born gay' issue yet. I know God created man and woman for a reason and not two men, and that He forbids men laying with men. *A lot of gays become gay later on in life and choice to be that way.But also if you are born gay can you help being that way? *And being born sinful from a biblical perspective goes against God's word so I believe it's the sin not the person who seperates himself from God. So it is possible to live a holy life and not sin.


No, I don't believe anyone's becoming gay later in life. They may "come out" at various ages, but it's not like they were straight prior to that, they just weren't openly acknowledging that they were gay. I can assure you, I've never in my life been attracted to a man or wanted to date one. And as with many gays who have religious or homophobic parents, if I could "help being that way" I would, figuring this out was pretty upsetting to me. I remember going to confession upset and worried because I didn't want to like girls and asking the priest to help me. Pretending not to be gay and praying not to be gay doesn't make you stop being gay.

Also your answer is confusing. You think gays should be allowed to marry and have kids, but just not sleep together? Should me and my wife sleep in separate rooms to avoid the temptation?


----------



## AllTheSame

@Carolyne Yeah Idk, his response to you was confusing to me and unless I missed it somewhere in this thread I don't think he ever clarified exactly what he meant. It's really kind of irrelevant to me, except for the fact that he needs to stop spreading his (imo) message of hate here. I couldn't care less what his religious beliefs are, tbh, it's a free country, just...if you want to spread hate then keep your thoughts to yourself. Personally, the God I believe in would not condemn someone to hell for all of eternity for being the way that He made them. That makes absolutely no sense to me, and I totally believe that people are born with the sexual orientation that they have...I don't think it's learned, and I don't think anyone that's gay can be "reformed" or "taught" how to be straight, that whole idea is ridiculous to me. My oldest daughter is bisexual. Sexual orientation is not a straight and narrow path for everyone. I consider myself to be lucky, mine has been. But I most def do not believe in a God that would condemn anyone for being...how they're created in the first place.


----------



## Furiosa

Carolyne said:


> We're a bunch of sinners, we're addicted to our sins. I'm just too hooked on that ***** to hear God's words. I still don't understand his response to me, it almost sounds like he thinks God approves of gays getting married and adopting kids...but those married gay parents should still not sleep with each other.


Basically being gay is fine as long as you never have sex, you never masturbate, you never have a partner and you never have lustful thoughts. Follow these simple rules and when you pop your clogs one day, you've earned yourself a nice ticket to see the big man in the sky. How hard could it be?


----------



## Carolyne

@Royals based on your response I don't think you understood me. You said there's no excuse for gay people not to believe, because they can choose not to sin. What I was saying is, you're asking me to give up the most important relationships and experiences that a person can have on this earth, to forgo any chance at love or a partnership, to deny all of my instincts and pleasure (which you don't have to), for something that you can't even prove exists. It's easy for you to live by "God's word" since he's asking you to do the things you already want to do. If it all turns out to be fake you've lost nothing. I would lose out on everything.


----------



## springbreeze1

Royals said:


> I think it is wrong to condemn gay, other believers, atheist whoever it is! Because we are not called to do that. We need to step to people in need with love like Jesus did. That doesn't mean we should mirror unrighteous people's behavior but tell them about God's goodness. Like I said, we are allowed to judge the world and it's actions, so unrighteous sinful behavior, but not the person him/herself.


Why is Judging the "sinful behavior" any better than Judging the person? I'm not getting it here. It's just repackaging of the same old judgemental attitude. We judge people exactly by their action. A person who committed murder is a murderer and so on. It's just the Bible is using the wrong standard when it comes to Judging.


----------



## RenegadeReloaded

Royals said:


> Believing out of fear is wrong. God should take away all fear and give security of His presence and the afterlife. Did you have the gifts of the Spirit? Did you stop sinning and obeying God?


I agree, believing out of fear is wrong, but there are many examples in the Bible when God wants you to fear him, so...He even allowed hell to exist to threaten you with it if you don't obey him, so it's still a fear based system, aside from also being a reward system cause there is heaven.

I also agree that God should take away all fear, but thousands of years have passed and still he doesn't want to do it. Like you said, God should give security of his presence and I think this is where most people that want to believe in him fail to, if God could give at least 1 clear sign of his existence no one would doubt him anymore.

About the gifts of the Spirit and stopping sinning and obeying every God's word yeah, done that for many years under the supervision of the best priests from my country, it was really hard to do it without even a little bit of feedback from divinity, it was like I was praying to the walls. I would have continued to sacrifice my whole life for him if he would just make his presence felt, in any minor way.

I'm glad you are doing better. But I also hear people from other hundred religions doing better when they 'found' their god, so what am I to believe of this ? If he is the only true God, why do other people feel the same enlightenment in other religions ?


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## Royals

Overdrive said:


> You know that god can be anything.
> Have you ever thought about how God look like ?.


The Bible says all the things God is. Yes, I know what He looks like, us. God created us in His image.


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## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> I know that Persephone can deal with all this themselves, but honestly do you even read your own holy book?
> 
> Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."


That simply talks about transvestites. So pretending you are a male if you're not and vice versa. When a woman wears a pants doesn't mean she wants to be a male or has the intention to act like she is a male. Gender roles is so important to God because He created man and woman clearly distinguished, so mixing up this image is blaspheming His word. That is why the devil wants to be androgynous because it destroys God's image of man and woman. See the baphomet image, half male and half woman.


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## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> I'm well aware of the cultural context of 2000 years ago. And also of the thousands of years before that, before the Word of God was even written. So here's my question: When did it change? How can you honestly say 'Well it was the culture back then' and then add 'But we still have to follow the other bits'? You can't pick and choose based on what is now law/culture because that law/culture was not written in the Bible, and therefore is not God's will.


The original and oldest examples of the Bibl are the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint (both om 250-200 BC or earlier. The first one is in Hebrew, the second is a Greek translation of the lost Hebrew scriptures. So, originally we have to use the Hebrew translation. The New Testament was written originally in Greek most say in the West, but I believe in was originally also in Hebrew or Aramaic (the languages Jesus and the apostles spoke). So in that case use the Pes hitta (the Bible of the East) and a Greek NT translation. The Bible wasnt changed, it was translated differently. In different languages and interpretations of the translator. Just because you use different words wich have the same meaning to translate a word doesn't mean the overall message changes. The Hebrew often has different words meanings. Just like we have. For example Pretty can be translated as beautiful, really nice, fine, handsome, precious, good-looking....

The only Bibles wich are different are the ones who create their own stories or change whole sentences to fit their interpretation. That is why I only read the oldest Bibles to stay closest to the word.

Any culture has certain customs. We don't have to practice Indian customs either right? We have our own. So cultures and rules change over time, so ofcourse today's culture wasn't the same as then. But there's certain rules we all follow, like not murdering, stealing, lieing, cheating, because we all know these things are morally wrong. The 10 commandments are meant for everybody, not the Jewish customs wich were created only for them.


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## Royals

truant said:


> I know I said I was done, but as you know, I never could resist temptation.
> 
> I think about this every time I think about religion. Apparently, enough men and women are easily deceived because they fall for the lies of priests who promise them a glorious life elsewhere (Heaven).
> 
> Many of those "scammers, bullies and other kinds of sociopaths or psychopaths" are attracted to religion because they know how easy it is to twist "God's words" to suit any purpose. Once they've convinced people they have God on their side, they can be as evil as they like. Which is why we have religious wars and terrorism, inquisitions and murder for apostasy and heresy, gay and trans people being executed, and brainwashing like conversion therapy.
> 
> It's religious thinking that also leads to shaming people who sell sex, which leads to all of the evils of sex trafficking and criminal prostitution -- evils created by religion, which don't need to exist, and which cause untold harm. We don't need to talk about all the marital rape religion has justified over the course of thousands of years. I shudder to even think about it. Would you date a rapist? If you're religious at any point in history up until recently, there's a good chance you were married to one.
> 
> The difference between a sex trafficker and a priest is that one takes the freedom of your body and puts it into the service of others and the other takes the freedom of your mind and puts it into the service of religion. Ofc, most priests are as deluded as the people they deceive so we protect their insanity under 'freedom of religion'.
> 
> Tell me, Royals: what's the difference between a pimp who threatens a prostitute with a beating if she doesn't put out and a priest who threatens a wife with eternal damnation if _she_ doesn't put out? Answer: the prostitute has a chance of being saved.


Different meanings and intentions again. Any trafficker has evil intentions and a plan to hurt others for money. A good God obeying believer has only good intentions of sharing God's love and wants to help others without asking anything. One is based on greed, the other on love. Yes, those evil practices happen in certain religions like Islam. Catholicism used to do those things but not anymore.

I think the Holy Spirit will guide me and will tell me who I can trust or not. He makes me seperate good from evil and distinguish spirits.
Sure evil happens in most religions but it's caused by man not God. God doesn't command us to do those things. So we might be better off listening to Him than our own imperfect will.

I rather have a priest save me and rescue me from an evil world and lead me to God than someone exploiting and abusing me for money.
But to be sure I rather listen to God than to any man. Don't put too much trust into human because their spirit and will is corruptible.

'Tell me, Royals: what's the difference between a pimp who threatens a prostitute with a beating if she doesn't put out and a priest who threatens a wife with eternal damnation if _she_ doesn't put out? Answer: the prostitute has a chance of being saved"

Both actions are ungodly. But I say there is a chance for salvation for both. The diffference is we know for sure the prostitute would get beaten and/or killed and the wife not. Because we will see in the afterlife what happens when we stand before God.


----------



## Red October

wow, the lengths some people will go to while trying to camouflage their bigotry as something noble or righteous :roll

maybe you should consider switching to a more modern and tolerant One True God?


----------



## Royals

Persephone The Dread said:


> If you're telling other people that their natural behaviour or thoughts are sinful and going to lead them to hell, then you are basically condemning them. If it's subjective, then you can't be telling 'the truth' because it's subjective. You are telling people your opinion, which they'll either agree or disagree with.
> 
> As TheWelshOne pointed out it's directly referenced in the bible that you can't wear the clothes of the opposite sex.
> 
> I think that really depends on the porn, and the opinions of the person viewing it really. I don't view people in porn as just 'pieces of meat' and I'd say the facial expressions/body language/reactions of the people are more important to me than anything else. Of course it's still acting, and I do like certain body parts as well, but I'm not just looking for that reason.
> 
> They're still mentioned in the Bible. Yes exactly, it was written a long time ago, but a lot of people are still following the same old rules, yourself included...
> 
> He killed a lot of people for stupid reasons, he did a lot of other messed up stuff too. Check out the binding of Isaac (no not the video game, although I'd recommend that too, it's a fun game,) and was generally pretty wrathful.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac
> 
> You can choose to ignore parts of the bible, but that seems as arbitrary as choosing to ignore the new testament imo.
> 
> OK then have you personally heard from God that the things you think are wrong, are wrong?
> 
> Yeah that's how cults indoctrinate people, how Hitler rose to power, and why you follow the Christian religion. Obviously some women are forced into prostitution against their will, or end up as a sexworker due to desperation, but not all of them. It is not inherently bad/sinful, it depends on the circumstances (although it's never sinful because sin is a silly concept.) Same with porn.


I don't think I said once your thoughts will lead you to hell. I only said it's logical that sin seperates you from God. Because you can't serve a holy God when you are sinning and doing the devil's work. Since the devil was a sinner since the beginning.
God's truth is not subjective.

I already told that that the verse about clothes is about transvestites and mixing up God's holy image of man and woman. Wich are created in His image.

Why does someone watch porn? For the dialogue or symbolical message it spreads? No, to satisfy sexual needs. So it's purely selfish and focused on the flesh. The opposite of the spirit and God. Someone private sex life is none of your business. Being a voyeur is also not something to be proud of.

Luckily those rules are mentioned in the Bible because they make you a better person. People still live by the ten commandments (society does) and we still celebrate Jewish feasts. And Jews still follow OT laws. As long as we aren't harming anyone.

What you call stupid I call righteous. Also read the Jewish and Christian views on the binding of Isaac. The most important thing is that God doesn't demand sacrifices and didn't let Abraham kill Isaac.

I never ignore parts of the Bible I just explain them from a cultural, linguistic, spiritual and symbolilcal perspective. Some things happened otherwise we think, other things happened literally. There's many symbolical parts in the Bible. Just have to study it to see what means what. Atheists are always good in only picking the bad parts of the OT only to give Christianity or God a bad name. I look at the whole Bible when I need examples to explain God and His actions.

The Spirit, my consience and teh Bible tell me what is wrong or right.

Most girls/women in prostitution are trafficked. Read more about it. If you did and knew the shocking truth you would think differently about it. I don't follow God because of indoctrination but out of free will. If the industry has bad roots, fruits or effects then it's corrupted in essence If the majority is trafficked it's not a good businees.

http://www.soroptimist.org/trafficking/faq.html

There is a reason why the government closes brothels (including in my country) beause of the illegal activity going on.


----------



## Royals

Milco said:


> And the passages condemning homosexuality are actually about Greek cults, that believed sex (between the male members) was a way of getting closer to god.
> Perhaps you should take your own advice?
> 
> So I'll repeat..
> 
> No, you don't.
> You stand for your own beliefs and hide behind some projection of god, that isn't real, and that's completely irrelevant to everybody else.
> The hateful views you're spreading are your own, and neither invoking god nor the bible is going to make them any better or more right.
> It is vain and arrogant to claim that you stand for some divine truth. Take responsibility for your views or keep them to yourself.


Paul's preaching against homosexuality was talking about anyone in general. He said 'homosexuals', not 'Greek homosexuals'.

You are standing for your own views. I spread biblical truth. Biblical word is intervened through my words, and I quote all the time. So I can back up what I say by God's word. If you want my to quote texts about what I say I can do that also.


----------



## Royals

Furiosa said:


> Do you honestly believe that God, or any other religion for that matter, can be a complete substitute both mentally and physically for a partner in life? For someone who's gay, it's not just all about sex. What about all the other things that come with a loving relationship? Having someone to nurse you when your unwell, someone who's there when you get home from work and has made you dinner, someone to build a home and possibly a family with, someone to share holidays and see the world together, someone to laugh and cry with, someone to grow old with, I could go on. As God isn't a physical person here with us in reality, he cannot provide us with these, so is a gay person simply expected to forego all of this in life? That's a hell of an expectation and sacrifice if you ask me.
> 
> What exactly is a "disciplined" life for a gay person? Let me guess, a life of complete celibacy, and I'm guessing maturbation is also out of bounds? Well I suppose if you were born with the sex drive of a wet rag, then this might be a viable option.
> 
> If we were to turn this on it's head hypothetically, what if I were to say to you (I'm guessing your straight), you are never allowed to have sex with a woman in life, not even once. In fact you cannot do anything sexual with a woman, ever. You can also never have a girlfriend or wife. On top of this you can also never have lustful thoughts about women, nor can you ever masturbate. And if you do any of these, when you die, you will be eternally damned. How would that make you feel? Pretty crappy? Not nice is it, and that's exactly how gay people have it when it comes to religion and sexuality.


Yes, God can be. One the Holy Spirit fills you up your desires and mindset changes. Depends on how close you are to God. The closer you are the more you only need His love. I already said, all those things are not sinful. Plenty of homsexuals live that way. Love is not sinful in essence, only when we corrupt it and make it unclean. God said you can't lay with another man, He was talking about the action, not the person. God is spiritual so He satsifies spiritual needs. And we are spiritual beings trapped in a fleshly body. So God doesn't have to fufill physical needs. Really, God's Spirit and presence in your life can be so strong, if you are convicted and saved, that He can replace all fleshly desires lusts and wants. I notice it myself, I don't even think about this world or lust when The Spirit inspires and convicts me. I seriously would choose God's Spirit and a spiritual life over a material fleshly life any day if I had to. Because God can make you feel like no one can, and give you true everlasting happiness. It is perfection. I feel so loved and perfected in God. Who would want to replace or change that? The only reason people cannot understand that is because they don't know or can't imagine what that really feels like. Because when you are too caught up in the flesh and your own desires you cannot experience this. But from my experience I know the difference. It's huge. And I don't want to go back to my old life/ways.

A disciplined life is obeying God and not doing the things wich aren't good for you or wich God disagrees with. Masturbation is not a neccesity, you can replace it with something else. I guess it's all about your priorites and what you chase after.

Again, this is not about normal sex. It is about sin. I am not going to cheat on my woman. I am not going to beat her with a whip because I like it. I am not going to tie her up. Or have homsexual sex. It's all a choice. If I knew what I did means death I wouldn't do it. But there is plenty of time to repent so that is a choice also. I know the consequences of sin and I don't want to do it. Why indulge in it when you know how bad and unhealthy it is for you?

You can't generalize and say ALL homosexuals have trouble with religion because a lot haven't.

Some verses what I talked about:

"Who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed" (Psalm 103:5)

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you" (ezekiel 36:26)

"For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live
"(Romans 8:13)

" For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life" (Galatians 6:7-8)

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me" (Galatians 2:20)

"But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lust" (Romans 13:14)

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh" (Galatians 6:15)

"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires" (Galatians 5:24)

"Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin" (Romans 6:6)


----------



## Royals

springbreeze1 said:


> Why is Judging the "sinful behavior" any better than Judging the person? I'm not getting it here. It's just repackaging of the same old judgemental attitude. We judge people exactly by their action. A person who committed murder is a murderer and so on. It's just the Bible is using the wrong standard when it comes to Judging.


Just because he murders doesn't mean murder is part of a person. Seperate the sin from the person. Sin enters a person but can leave also.
So God tells us not to judge by appearance (wich is vanity) but by their heart. And when you don't agree with calling people sinners because they sin why say we can call those who commit murder, murderers?


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Royals said:


> I already told that that the verse about clothes is about transvestites and mixing up God's holy image of man and woman. Wich are created in His image.
> 
> Why does someone watch porn? For the dialogue or symbolical message it spreads? No, to satisfy sexual needs. So it's purely selfish and focused on the flesh. The opposite of the spirit and God. Someone private sex life is none of your business. Being a voyeur is also not something to be proud of.
> 
> Luckily those rules are mentioned in the Bible because they make you a better person. People still live by the ten commandments (society does) and we still celebrate Jewish feasts. And Jews still follow OT laws. As long as we aren't harming anyone.
> 
> What you call stupid I call righteous. Also read the Jewish and Christian views on the binding of Isaac. The most important thing is that God doesn't demand sacrifices and didn't let Abraham kill Isaac.
> 
> I never ignore parts of the Bible I just explain them from a cultural, linguistic, spiritual and symbolilcal perspective. Some things happened otherwise we think, other things happened literally. There's many symbolical parts in the Bible. Just have to study it to see what means what. Atheists are always good in only picking the bad parts of the OT only to give Christianity or God a bad name. I look at the whole Bible when I need examples to explain God and His actions.
> 
> The Spirit, my consience and teh Bible tell me what is wrong or right.
> 
> Most girls/women in prostitution are trafficked. Read more about it. If you did and knew the shocking truth you would think differently about it. I don't follow God because of indoctrination but out of free will. If the industry has bad roots, fruits or effects then it's corrupted in essence If the majority is trafficked it's not a good businees.
> 
> http://www.soroptimist.org/trafficking/faq.html
> 
> There is a reason why the government closes brothels (including in my country) beause of the illegal activity going on.


Actually no you didn't already tell me that. You previously let me know you think showing the naked body is sinful but thank you for letting me know what your backward *** opinions on gender non conformity are.

Oh I'm sure it's selfish but so is playing a video game or eating a chocolate bar, or anything you do for pleasure.

lol I don't imagine anyone feels proud about watching porn or viewing pornagraphic imagery. It's odd that you think people would. Yet it definitely shouldn't be something people feel ashamed about.

Why do you keep alternating between porn and prostitution? They are not fully comparable for a number of reasons. But anyway I'm pretty sure if you legalised and regulated prostitution, trafficking wouldn't be a problem in areas where that was the case. It's a shame so many people are contributing to the shady criminal side of things by promoting the idea of it being sinful, or shameful.

You didn't seem to answer my question on whether you think your God actually spoke to you about these topics personally. As you said before the bible is just books right and you have a connection with God 

As bad as the bible is... The people who follow it, yourself included are what give it and your religion a bad name. Either you are a bigot or your God is and you're a sheeple, I'll let you decide which suits you more.


----------



## Royals

AllTheSame said:


> @*Royals* I don't really have much to add that hasn't been said already (or said by me in any of the other threads you've tried to take over). I just think it's very sad, and kind of shocking and surprising the effect religion seems to have on some people. To some people, religion is like a drug. You really don't realize how much it's distorting your perceptions, your thought process. But even worse than that, I've never been able to figure out why some people who overdose on this religious self-righteousness fail to see how close-minded, how judgmental and sanctimonious, and preachy and smug they've become, all in the name of "religion". Though, that's really what you're hiding behind, imo, to justify how close-minded you are. People don't hear you because that's really what your "message" is all about imo. I haven't come across many people on this forum that seem to be more complacent, more full of themselves than you seem to come across.
> 
> Hmmmm....I wonder how it's possible to have so, so many people disagreeing with you, for so many people to have an issue with you coming into threads for the sole purpose of condemning people to hell in the name of your religion. I wonder why there are so many? Could it be that you're not thinking clearly, and your hiding behind your religious beliefs to call people out for not living their lives as YOU see fit? Could it be that all these people might have a point? Or....(I can't wait to hear your answer on this, the anticipation is just killing me)....or do you think you're right and all these people have some issue with you personally, or that all these people are just wrong?


Let me remind you I didn't begin this discussion. I began with a simple fact and someone reacted to me. Then ofcourse others began their usual bible attacking tirade. So I just inform and explain better what the Bible says.

Not talking about religion but God.

That is your views of God's and His word wich I quote from. I want God to get the glory and simply share His word.

My purpose was to react to this thread and not begin a discussion about God. And I never condemned people to hell. So don't twist my words to make me look bad. Wanting to clear up things about God's word and explain it better is not condeming people to hell.

Am I saying that you or others condemn me because of your views/opinion? But whenever someone talks about God and His word then it's automatically condemnation and wrong. It's like Jesus said 'the world hates me because I testify the truth'. So I don't expect people to agree with me and they don't have to. Just because it's biblical truth doesn't mean it's wrong, and doesn't mean you have to take it personal. You can agree or disagree without feeling attacked. If I was a sinner I would accept the bliblical fact I was one. I wouldn't try to justify my sin and hide behind the fact that my deeds are good and that I feel condemned.

I agree with many things others say, it's not about that. It's about respecting and accepting other one's beliefs without saying I don't have the right to share God's word. I should be able to freely do that without someone taking offence. Don't expect me to agree on everything
because I don't live by the world but by God's word. So ofcourse I cannot agree with beliefs wich go against mine.


----------



## Royals

Carolyne said:


> We're a bunch of sinners, we're addicted to our sins. I'm just too hooked on that ***** to hear God's words. I still don't understand his response to me, it almost sounds like he thinks God approves of gays getting married and adopting kids...but those married gay parents should still not sleep with each other.


I say if the shoe fits wear it. If I was a sinner I would accept that. No problem. If I would deny that I would be fooling myself, or hate God's authority over me, or not honestly look at myself, or try to justify my sins. Now I see that i was doing those things before i was transformed.


----------



## Carolyne

Royals said:


> I say if the shoe fits wear it. If I was a sinner I would accept that. No problem. If I would deny that I would be fooling myself, or hate God's authority over me, or not honestly look at myself, or try to justify my sins. Now I see that i was doing those things before i was transformed.


Except that you think sinning is wrong and people need to stop. There's nothing wrong with sinning though, and gay people shouldn't change who they are to fit in with your false god. You're apparently not going to answer my question so I guess I'm done bothering to try to understand you.


----------



## MadnessVertigo

Do you proselytize in real life Royals? I'm curious what kind of reception you receive if you do.


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## Furiosa

Royals said:


> Yes, God can be. One the Holy Spirit fills you up your desires and mindset changes. Depends on how close you are to God. The closer you are the more you only need His love. I already said, all those things are not sinful. Plenty of homsexuals live that way. Love is not sinful in essence, only when we corrupt it and make it unclean. God said you can't lay with another man, He was talking about the action, not the person. God is spiritual so He satsifies spiritual needs. And we are spiritual beings trapped in a fleshly body. So God doesn't have to fufill physical needs. Really, God's Spirit and presence in your life can be so strong, if you are convicted and saved, that He can replace all fleshly desires lusts and wants. I notice it myself, I don't even think about this world or lust when The Spirit inspires and convicts me. I seriously would choose God's Spirit and a spiritual life over a material fleshly life any day if I had to. Because God can make you feel like no one can, and give you true everlasting happiness. It is perfection. I feel so loved and perfected in God. Who would want to replace or change that? The only reason people cannot understand that is because they don't know or can't imagine what that really feels like. Because when you are too caught up in the flesh and your own desires you cannot experience this. But from my experience I know the difference. It's huge. And I don't want to go back to my old life/ways.
> 
> A disciplined life is obeying God and not doing the things wich aren't good for you or wich God disagrees with. Masturbation is not a neccesity, you can replace it with something else. I guess it's all about your priorites and what you chase after.
> 
> Again, this is not about normal sex. It is about sin. I am not going to cheat on my woman. I am not going to beat her with a whip because I like it. I am not going to tie her up. Or have homsexual sex. It's all a choice. If I knew what I did means death I wouldn't do it. But there is plenty of time to repent so that is a choice also. I know the consequences of sin and I don't want to do it. Why indulge in it when you know how bad and unhealthy it is for you?
> 
> You can't generalize and say ALL homosexuals have trouble with religion because a lot haven't.
> 
> Some verses what I talked about:
> 
> "Who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed" (Psalm 103:5)
> 
> "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you" (ezekiel 36:26)
> 
> "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live
> "(Romans 8:13)
> 
> " For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life" (Galatians 6:7-8)
> 
> "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me" (Galatians 2:20)
> 
> "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lust" (Romans 13:14)
> 
> "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh" (Galatians 6:15)
> 
> "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires" (Galatians 5:24)
> 
> "Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin" (Romans 6:6)


So basically what you are saying is that God doesn't have an issue with somebody having a gay relationship, it's the sex part that sinful? As long as they don't have sex, it's fine? Am I interpreting this correctly.

Could I ask, in the bible, is it ever explained as to why gay sex is considered a sin? I'm aware that it is described as an abomination, but does it ever mention as to why this is so? I can understand the logic behind other things considered sinful, let's take stealing for example, we all know this is wrong to take something that doesn't belong to you, as it's bad for the person who loses whatever it is that's stolen. Or murder, obviously this is wrong as taking someones life is the ultimate crime, nobody should be allowed to take the life of another. I can sort of see the reasoning behind sexual promiscuity as you could argue that there is the potential for spread of STD's and unwanted pregnancies, so there is a potential risk of harm. So when it comes to gay sex, when it occurs between two consensual adults, why is this considered a sin exactly?


----------



## Royals

Carolyne said:


> No, I don't believe anyone's becoming gay later in life. They may "come out" at various ages, but it's not like they were straight prior to that, they just weren't openly acknowledging that they were gay. I can assure you, I've never in my life been attracted to a man or wanted to date one. And as with many gays who have religious or homophobic parents, if I could "help being that way" I would, figuring this out was pretty upsetting to me. I remember going to confession upset and worried because I didn't want to like girls and asking the priest to help me. Pretending not to be gay and praying not to be gay doesn't make you stop being gay.
> 
> Also your answer is confusing. You think gays should be allowed to marry and have kids, but just not sleep together? Should me and my wife sleep in separate rooms to avoid the temptation?


Just because someone feels guilty might be a sign your conscience is convicting you. Because I never feel guilty unless I am doing something wrong wich I know in my heart I shouldn't be doing. Often homosexuals get this guilt or shame because of this. They start to get confused should I follow myself or God? So following God becomes too hard to do and they couldn't imagine a life without sexual pleasure so that often is a big reason to not obey God. It's a personal choice to follow yourself or God. It's a personal choice to do things God hates. It's a personal choice to choose yourself over God. God hates the sin not the sinner.
Ofcourse God doesn't like it when we deny Him. Wich parent would like it if their children would deny them? I just can't live a life like 'I do what I want as long as it feels good'. I want to live an unselfish and pure life. You can change God's word to fit to your needs but it doesn't change God or His word.

I believe marriage is between man and woman. Jesus said 'a man leaves his parents to reunite and become one with a woman'. Together they form a holy bond so i don't agree with gay marriage. But they can both follow and serve God.

But you can't love someone who you don't obey. That is why Jesus said 'if you love me you keep my commandments'. And I made a choice to live for God not myself.


----------



## Royals

Carolyne said:


> @*Royals* based on your response I don't think you understood me. You said there's no excuse for gay people not to believe, because they can choose not to sin. What I was saying is, you're asking me to give up the most important relationships and experiences that a person can have on this earth, to forgo any chance at love or a partnership, to deny all of my instincts and pleasure (which you don't have to), for something that you can't even prove exists. It's easy for you to live by "God's word" since he's asking you to do the things you already want to do. If it all turns out to be fake you've lost nothing. I would lose out on everything.


I am not, God is asking to obey Him. He doesn't forbid you to love. I said so many times sin is what seperates us from God. Not talking about normal love. Lust is not love. Thoughts are not sinful yet, the action is. Ofcourse only 'give up things' when you surely know God exists and you feel Him in your heart. I would give up anything if it meant chosing between this world and God. Because this world is temporary and God is eternal. It's not easy for me. I could sin daily if I listened to my ego or flesh. It's a battle everyday to resist and overcome sin. But I still chose to do it because it makes me a better person and I want to obey God. That is why the Bible says 'crucify your flesh daily'. So I don't mind if I lose everything, it's all mortal anyway, I know I live forever. If you don't have God and everything fades away you have nothing left.


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## Royals

Red October said:


> wow, the lengths some people will go to while trying to camouflage their bigotry as something noble or righteous :roll
> 
> maybe you should consider switching to a more modern and tolerant One True God?


You have a problem with God's word. I am only sharing and informing about it. Don't have to listen or agree. 
God stays the same so why change my thoughts on Him? You can have your god I have mine


----------



## Royals

RenegadeReloaded said:


> I agree, believing out of fear is wrong, but there are many examples in the Bible when God wants you to fear him, so...He even allowed hell to exist to threaten you with it if you don't obey him, so it's still a fear based system, aside from also being a reward system cause there is heaven.
> 
> I also agree that God should take away all fear, but thousands of years have passed and still he doesn't want to do it. Like you said, God should give security of his presence and I think this is where most people that want to believe in him fail to, if God could give at least 1 clear sign of his existence no one would doubt him anymore.
> 
> About the gifts of the Spirit and stopping sinning and obeying every God's word yeah, done that for many years under the supervision of the best priests from my country, it was really hard to do it without even a little bit of feedback from divinity, it was like I was praying to the walls. I would have continued to sacrifice my whole life for him if he would just make his presence felt, in any minor way.
> 
> I'm glad you are doing better. But I also hear people from other hundred religions doing better when they 'found' their god, so what am I to believe of this ? If he is the only true God, why do other people feel the same enlightenment in other religions ?


Not the fear you mean. Fear as in obedience and respect. No, hell was created for satan and his angels. And for you to choose between heaven and hell. I can freely choose to be with God or not. So I make sure I live a life wich is worth of heaven.

Humans choose to be featful of God because they have a wrong perception or view of God. God is love. In love is no fear. Love casts out all fear the Bible says. God is willing to answer to those who call Him. Everyday people draw near to God through their spirit. So it's really our choice. If you are ready to repent and obey God and stop living in sin, ask Him in your life and believe.

Ofcourse it's not easy. I have waited years for change or for something to happen. But I just keep faithful. And I am thankful for every little thing wich goes well. I pray and I feel God's presence. So I don't know about what happened to you personally or why you had the
impression God wasn't there. God promises us He is always by our side. So you either stay faithful or not. It's personal. I personally can't go back to my old lifestyle anymore since it was killing me. I couldn't live without God anymore.

Well at least it's proof religion or God helps various people from many religions. But like I said before, it's easy for satan to deceive people. Especially those caught in idolatry wich God forbids. Many of thoese religions listen to, and worship false gods. Wich puts a sort of spell on them so to say so that they become spiritually blinded. So you have to be really sure it's the right direction and way you follow. And only Jesus said 'I am the Way, Truth, and Life, and only way to the Father'.


----------



## Royals

Carolyne said:


> Except that you think sinning is wrong and people need to stop. There's nothing wrong with sinning though, and gay people shouldn't change who they are to fit in with your false god. You're apparently not going to answer my question so I guess I'm done bothering to try to understand you.


Do what you want. I do what I want


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## Royals

MadnessVertigo said:


> Do you proselytize in real life Royals? I'm curious what kind of reception you receive if you do.


Sometimes yes. If I tell about God's love most don't like it wich is understandable. But my goal never is to forcefully convert anyone but simply leave a message of hope and salvation, and to inform others better. And so far people have thanked me for leading them to God. So I am thankful to God for that.


----------



## MadnessVertigo

Royals said:


> Sometimes yes. If I tell about God's love most don't like it wich is understandable. But my goal never is to forcefully convert anyone but simply leave a message of hope and salvation, and to inform others better. And so far people have thanked me for leading them to God. So I am thankful to God for that.


Why is it understandable that most people don't like to hear about God's love? Shouldn't hope and salvation be welcomed by most people?


----------



## Royals

Furiosa said:


> So basically what you are saying is that God doesn't have an issue with somebody having a gay relationship, it's the sex part that sinful? As long as they don't have sex, it's fine? Am I interpreting this correctly.
> 
> Could I ask, in the bible, is it ever explained as to why gay sex is considered a sin? I'm aware that it is described as an abomination, but does it ever mention as to why this is so? I can understand the logic behind other things considered sinful, let's take stealing for example, we all know this is wrong to take something that doesn't belong to you, as it's bad for the person who loses whatever it is that's stolen. Or murder, obviously this is wrong as taking someones life is the ultimate crime, nobody should be allowed to take the life of another. I can sort of see the reasoning behind sexual promiscuity as you could argue that there is the potential for spread of STD's and unwanted pregnancies, so there is a potential risk of harm. So when it comes to gay sex, when it occurs between two consensual adults, why is this considered a sin exactly?


Right.

Well like I said before to God anything wich corrupts our heart or His word is unhealthy for us. Gay sex is sinful to Him because it's unnatural, and goes against the holy bond He created of man and women. He created man and woman in His image to come together and become one. So if anyone does the opposite like satan (the adversary) would do he is corrupting/twisting God's holy plan. That is why you see the image of the baphomet as an androgynous being (half man, half woman) to explicitly mock God's creation. Also often the percentage of AIDS is highest with homosexuals. Unsafe sex (with many partners) and a ruthless sexual lifestyle is more common than not. And disease isn't healthy either. That is not loving others as yourself. So that is why God forbids these practices since He only wants what is best for us.


----------



## Royals

MadnessVertigo said:


> Why is it understandable that most people don't like to hear about God's love? Shouldn't hope and salvation be welcomed by most people?


Take a look at this thread  The Bible says you will be mocked for your beliefs, and Jesus said 'the world hated Him because He testified the truth'. The world doesn't like God's truth because it is opposite of their will. Most people need hope but don't want salvation. First you have to repent of your sins and obey God and that's too hard to do for most people.


----------



## MadnessVertigo

Royals said:


> Take a look at this thread  The Bible says you will be mocked for your beliefs, and Jesus said 'the world hated Him because He testied the truth'. The world doesn't like God's truth because it is opposite of their will. Most people need hope but don't want salvation. First you have to repent of your sins and obey God and that's too hard to do for most people.


Do you think you intentionally try to provoke hatred and mockery, even from those who are unwilling to give it, in order to raise yourself in your own eyes as fulfilling the bible?


----------



## VanitysFiend

Royals said:


> Just because someone feels guilty might be a sign your conscience is convicting you. Because *I never feel guilty unless I am doing something wrong* which I know in my heart I shouldn't be doing.


Do u feel guilty when u call gays sinners who should just abstain from sex for as long as they live? If not I think it's safe to say u don't know sh*t about whats right and wrong enough to feel guilt appropriately...



Royals said:


> *Often homosexuals get this guilt or shame because of this.*


Or more likely it's because they live in a homophobic community with a warped view of human sexuality...



Royals said:


> They start to get confused should I follow myself or God?


Unlike most Christians who just do what they want while claiming to be following gods will, ignoring the bits that might inconvenience them while embracing the bits that don't, hence why homophobia is so popular among Christians...



Royals said:


> So following God becomes too hard to do and they couldn't imagine a life without sexual pleasure so that often is a big reason to not obey God.


It's not just a sex thing, it's also about love, that thing Christians claim to care about, but when they say 'love' they actually mean 'obedience'. When your choice is between a life without romantic love and following God a lot of people r gonna start thinking really seriously about what reasons they have to even believe in his existence, and when all it boils down to is faith, belief without evidence, it becomes completely reasonable to just drop the whole thing...



Royals said:


> It's a personal choice to follow yourself or God.


So what?



Royals said:


> It's a personal choice to do things God hates.


Yeah, but Gods a wanker, doing things he hates is a pretty good way to do good...



Royals said:


> It's a personal choice to choose yourself over God.


Repetitive much?



Royals said:


> God hates the sin not the sinner.


That is such an empty phrase, what is the real world difference between someone who opposes gay rights because they hate the sin of sodomy, and someone who opposes gay rights because they hate gays. It's just a semantic trick to try to avoid having your bigotries labelled as bigotries. Try this I don't hate non-whites, I just hate miscegenation, whats the f**kin difference in practice?



Royals said:


> Of course God doesn't like it when we deny Him. Which parent would like it if their children would deny them?


'Deny' is a small word in that sentence that can mean a whole lot of things. If a parent said they wanted u to marry someone you'd never seen, or talked to, or were even aware of, would it be inappropriate to deny them? Also what kind of parent would want their children to obey them in all things?



Royals said:


> I just can't live a life like 'I do what I want as long as it feels good'. I want to live an unselfish and pure life. *You can change God's word to fit to your needs but it doesn't change God or His word.*


How's that going for u?



Royals said:


> I believe marriage is between man and woman. Jesus said 'a man leaves his parents to reunite and become one with a woman'. Together they form a holy bond so i don't agree with gay marriage. But they can both follow and serve God.


Technically, isn't biblical marriage between one man and one plus women, plus concubines, plus slaves?



Royals said:


> *But you can't love someone who you don't obey.* That is why Jesus said 'if you love me you keep my commandments'. And I made a choice to live for God not myself.


Yes u can, love and obedience/submissiveness r in no way necessary. Case and point, even Christianity teaches that men should love their wives, but it doesn't require them to be submissive to them, that's the womans job.


----------



## Furiosa

Royals said:


> Right.
> 
> Well like I said before to God anything wich corrupts our heart or His word is unhealthy for us. Gay sex is sinful to Him because it's unnatural, and goes against the holy bond He created of man and women. He created man and woman in His image to come together and become one. So if anyone does the opposite like satan (the adversary) would do he is corrupting/twisting God's holy plan. That is why you see the image of the baphomet as an androgynous being (half man, half woman) to explicitly mock God's creation. Also often the percentage of AIDS is highest with homosexuals. Unsafe sex (with many partners) and a ruthless sexual lifestyle is more common than not. And disease isn't healthy either. That is not loving others as yourself. So that is why God forbids these practices since He only wants what is best for us.


Right I see, I understand now. It's just that often when religion and sexuality is bought up, this isn't made clear, people get the idea that being gay as a whole, whether that be the sex, love, having a relationship, whatever, all of it is considered sinful.

Would the sex still be considered sinful if it was between two comitted, monogamous gay people who love each other, and in a long term relationship? As then you would be removing the unsafe sex and promiscuity, so would this not then be considered loving others as yourself, in God's eyes as you have done away with the potential harm elements? And say outwardly these people lived very good lives, they followed all the other rules in the bible, they commited no other sins, would they still go to hell because of this? Sorry for so many questions, it's a little confusing and I'm just trying to paint a picture as to how exactly a gay person is supposed to live if they did want to accept God.


----------



## Red October

Royals said:


> You have a problem with God's word. I am only sharing and informing about it. Don't have to listen or agree.
> God stays the same so why change my thoughts on Him? You can have your god I have mine


If you say so, though I really only have a problem with your presentation of God's word.

After all, you trust that your eyes don't decieve you when you read the bible, or when you hear the words of a priest, but your eyes and ears are merely human. How can you be sure that your senses are faithful and trustworthy?

What if a malevolent force was deceiving you, and making you see false words in the bible? It's easy to try and point to satanic influences in others, but have you considered the influence he may have over you?

So many people read the same book, and yet have such different ideas about God's will, do you believe that your own senses are so perfect, that your reason is so infallible, that you can say for certain that you speak for God on these matters, and run not even the slightest risk of misrepresenting him and spreading falsehood?

and just as an aside - the jack-o-lantern pictured in your profile is a form of pagan imagery, you may want to reconsider it


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## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> That simply talks about transvestites. So pretending you are a male if you're not and vice versa. When a woman wears a pants doesn't mean she wants to be a male or has the intention to act like she is a male. Gender roles is so important to God because He created man and woman clearly distinguished, so mixing up this image is blaspheming His word. That is why the devil wants to be androgynous because it destroys God's image of man and woman. See the baphomet image, half male and half woman.


Ok I understand now, thank you.

The Bible was misinterpreted for nearly 2000 years, until women were required to do factory work during World War II. That's when it became acceptable for women to wear trousers, as a safety issue. And even then it was deemed wrong in public (see the backlash to the ungodly Katherine Hepburn). Some branches of Christianity still believe it's wrong. I wish they could all talk to you so that they can realise its only the dirty trannies that the Scripture talks about.


----------



## RenegadeReloaded

Royals said:


> And for you to choose between heaven and hell.


I still don't understand how this is a choice. I mean who would willingly choose hell ?

To make an analogy, let's say the mafia asks you to do something. If you obey them, they will drown you in money, if you don't they will torture you. The same with God, if you obey him you are given eternal life, if you don't you will forever burn in hell with maggots eating you alive.


----------



## springbreeze1

I get that. All you are saying is that you are not condemning gays in the same sense you are not condemning murderers. Yeah that's very generously nonjudgmental. And I guess that's supposed to be very reassuring to gays.



Royals said:


> Just because he murders doesn't mean murder is part of a person. Seperate the sin from the person. Sin enters a person but can leave also.
> So God tells us not to judge by appearance (wich is vanity) but by their heart. And when you don't agree with calling people sinners because they sin why say we can call those who commit murder, murderers?


----------



## Furiosa

RenegadeReloaded said:


> I still don't understand how this is a choice. I mean who would willingly choose hell ?
> 
> To make an analogy, let's say the mafia asks you to do something. If you obey them, they will drown in in money, if you don't they will torture you. The same with God, if you obey him you are given eternal life, if you don't you will forever burn in hell with maggots eating you alive.


Exactly, it's not a choice is it. When it comes to God, it's my way or the highway. Accept me or face the consequences of eternal damnation. There is no middle ground and it's not open to negotiation. Sounds more like a threat to me.


----------



## SplendidBob

@Royals don't you care about consequences?

I would have thought that the lord would have wanted people to actually _gain_ recruits, this is how he gets his magical power right? (the number of followers).

But why do you work your absolute hardest to effectively dissuade people from becoming one with him? Have you *not noticed that people haven't taken too well to your approach here*? Do you think that given this, those people who were wavering about their beliefs will have been bolstered by your approach, or seen the insanity and become fully atheist?

The problem is that as a (rather extreme sounding) religious person you pay no heed to moral consequence, only moral rule. You are thus able to act in ways that create the worst possible outcome for your goals and not even care.

That your rants will only _soften_ peoples metaphorical erections for the lord doesn't seem to bother you. In fact, you are probably more effective in reducing erectile tumescence for god per unit of reader, than an entire squadron of cloned sweatshop chained Richard Dawkinses churning out endless quantities of atheistic literature.

"I was considering suckling from the sour teat of the lord until I read from his greatest champion Royals".

"When I saw what Royals was saying, I simply had to turn to the devil".


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## noydb

I just came here to say that I was considering suckling from the sour teat of the lord until I read from his greatest champion Royals.


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## Royals

MadnessVertigo said:


> Do you think you intentionally try to provoke hatred and mockery, even from those who are unwilling to give it, in order to raise yourself in your own eyes as fulfilling the bible?


Honestly, I never ever say something with the intention to cause controversy but only to share God's word and positively inspire others. That's why I create youtube video's and positive posts here. But like I said, God's truth might conflict with some people who are against it. Also spiritually speaking the darkness can't take the light. But personally when someone told me about God's truth I wouldn't deny it and listen to his wise advise. That is how I changed and got on my knees crying out to God to save me. I really understand others because I was once like them. But I cannot be the old me anymore because I'm on the other side now. So people can call me whatever. I been called many things. I don't really mind I just want to share God's love.


----------



## Royals

Furiosa said:


> Right I see, I understand now. It's just that often when religion and sexuality is bought up, this isn't made clear, people get the idea that being gay as a whole, whether that be the sex, love, having a relationship, whatever, all of it is considered sinful.
> 
> Would the sex still be considered sinful if it was between two comitted, monogamous gay people who love each other, and in a long term relationship? As then you would be removing the unsafe sex and promiscuity, so would this not then be considered loving others as yourself, in God's eyes as you have done away with the potential harm elements? And say outwardly these people lived very good lives, they followed all the other rules in the bible, they commited no other sins, would they still go to hell because of this? Sorry for so many questions, it's a little confusing and I'm just trying to paint a picture as to how exactly a gay person is supposed to live if they did want to accept God.


I really shake my head at those Christians who call homosexuals all kinds of names while they are just a sinful and don't care to look at themselves first. You can never change someone by calling them names. However a word like sinner is not a swear word but biblical. It's just someone who commits sin. Just like someone who commits a crime is a criminal. I am talking more about swear words calling people everything wich they are not. That is not right.

Well God says sin is sin in whatever way it happens. It's like if you steal from a stranger it's no worse than stealing from a loved one. It's both stealing. You know what I'm saying? If God starts to make exceptions for all cases it starts to get really difficult. God wants to make it as clear as possible. So it is what it is. You can have a word with God if you don't like it. I didn't invent the rules. 

Basically a spiritual relationship between two homosexuals and God, serving Him, is normal. Without the sinning. If any gay does not agree with this he is not right to be part of God's kingdom. Because God asks certain things of us and can't allow sin in His kingdom. If you truelly loved God you want to obey Him. Every religion, job, belief system or organisation has certain rules to live by or to obey so if they disagree they can pick another religion


----------



## Royals

Red October said:


> If you say so, though I really only have a problem with your presentation of God's word.
> 
> After all, you trust that your eyes don't decieve you when you read the bible, or when you hear the words of a priest, but your eyes and ears are merely human. How can you be sure that your senses are faithful and trustworthy?
> 
> What if a malevolent force was deceiving you, and making you see false words in the bible? It's easy to try and point to satanic influences in others, but have you considered the influence he may have over you?
> 
> So many people read the same book, and yet have such different ideas about God's will, do you believe that your own senses are so perfect, that your reason is so infallible, that you can say for certain that you speak for God on these matters, and run not even the slightest risk of misrepresenting him and spreading falsehood?
> 
> and just as an aside - the jack-o-lantern pictured in your profile is a form of pagan imagery, you may want to reconsider it


That's ok. Not everybod likes it.

The Bible says the Holy Spirit leads you into all truth. 
He guides you and makes you aware of God's word so that you understand it better. That is why I read the word with the Holy Spirit's guidance, whenever I feel inspired.
I not just read, I am eager to study, to understand, to keep on reading. It's sort of an awakening feeling, I start to see clearly O__O Like suddenly a great idea pops into your head, an eurka moment. The Bible also says the Spirit has His own soft voice. Not a hard voice but 
like your conscience. You understand the concept of receiving ideas right? God's Spirit is like this motivator and great inspiror. Often I don't feel the same, and am in battle with the ego and my own will. But when feel God that all dissapears. So that's how I know sure if it's from God.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the Bible is God's word through conviction of the Holy Spirit, so I have no reason to believe if I tell it that it's misguided. Because the Spirit leads to into all truth so I don't doubt that.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> Ok I understand now, thank you.
> 
> The Bible was misinterpreted for nearly 2000 years, until women were required to do factory work during World War II. That's when it became acceptable for women to wear trousers, as a safety issue. And even then it was deemed wrong in public (see the backlash to the ungodly Katherine Hepburn). Some branches of Christianity still believe it's wrong. I wish they could all talk to you so that they can realise its only the dirty trannies that the Scripture talks about.


Yes, you can dress up for fun you know. It's the intention that counts. Some Christians uyse the Bible to justify domestic violence and hate for witches and homosexuals. It's wrong. God never inteded it to be that way. We need to seperate the sin from the person. When you sin it becomes part of you, but it can leave just as quick if you stop doing it.


----------



## Royals

RenegadeReloaded said:


> I still don't understand how this is a choice. I mean who would willingly choose hell ?
> 
> To make an analogy, let's say the mafia asks you to do something. If you obey them, they will drown you in money, if you don't they will torture you. The same with God, if you obey him you are given eternal life, if you don't you will forever burn in hell with maggots eating you alive.


You can choose hell unconsciously without being unaware of it. Many people live in sin and break all God's commandments without realiziing they are storing up sin until they are so far removed from God they cannot take the light anymore. Imagine being the world's biggest sinner or criminal and standing in God's full light and presence. Would you hide or bow your head? I would bow but still not be ashamed because I know I didn't do anything wrong and obey God. But if you can't hide your shame or guilt where will you go? These are questions we have to think about. Because I live for today and like everyday could be my last. Because if I die in my sin I am not sure at all of my salvation.

So by living in sin and living far from God we automatically (unconciously) choose seperation from God. Because the Bible says sin leads to death. And he who sins is of the devil because the devil was asinner from the beginning. That is why I think about all this very well, become aware, and made my choice that I want to go to heaven.

But you cannot compare the mob with God right? When you mingle with the mob you get killed sooner or later anyway. But even they have a rewarding system, they are just revengeful wich God is not. Because God at least give you a fair chance or opportunity to choose the life you want and the eternal desination you want. And even gives enough time to repent from any sin possible. So even for some mob bosses there is salvation. Just ask Michael Franzese. Basically the way you live your live on earth determines where you go in the afterlife. That is enough motivation for me to try my best to be a decent person.


----------



## Furiosa

Royals said:


> I really shake my head at those Christians who call homosexuals all kinds of names while they are just a sinful and don't care to look at themselves first. You can never change someone by calling them names. However a word like sinner is not a swear word but biblical. It's just someone who commits sin. Just like someone who commits a crime is a criminal. I am talking more about swear words calling people everything wich they are not. That is not right.
> 
> Well God says sin is sin in whatever way it happens. It's like if you steal from a stranger it's no worse than stealing from a loved one. It's both stealing. You know what I'm saying? If God starts to make exceptions for all cases it starts to get really difficult. God wants to make it as clear as possible. So it is what it is. You can have a word with God if you don't like it. I didn't invent the rules.
> 
> Basically a spiritual relationship between two homosexuals and God, serving Him, is normal. Without the sinning. If any gay does not agree with this he is not right to be part of God's kingdom. Because God asks certain things of us and can't allow sin in His kingdom. If you truelly loved God you want to obey Him. Every religion, job, belief system or organisation has certain rules to live by or to obey so if they disagree they can pick another religion


Yes I understand, thanks for clarifying that, I was not aware of this information. I was initially always under the impression that Christians (and other religions) viewed being gay as a sin in itself, rather than just the sex part due to the mixed messages some religions give when it comes to these things.

I must say, I find that quite curious that it's the act of sex itself thats considered the sin, but gay love is okay. Personally I would have thought the latter would have been viewed as a bigger sin from God's perspective, to see two males or two females living together and building a life and home like a straight married couple, even if they are completely celibate. I mean the act of sex is usually a pretty quick thing, whereas for a relationship this can sometimes last for years and there are lots of emotions involved. Does that make sense?


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Yes, you can dress up for fun you know. It's the intention that counts. Some Christians uyse the Bible to justify domestic violence and hate for witches and homosexuals. It's wrong. God never inteded it to be that way. We need to seperate the sin from the person. When you sin it becomes part of you, but it can leave just as quick if you stop doing it.


OK, fine. I'm not gonna argue with you because you're free to believe whatever you want. But so are we.

The concept of Heaven and Hell, of sin and salvation, is just as alien to me as Valhalla and Hel is to you. There are thousands of gods, and many religions, that are older than yours. And if I was ever going to choose to believe in one, it would probably be one without such a large history of smiting and malevolence.

But again, your life, your choice; my life, my choice.


----------



## Royals

springbreeze1 said:


> I get that. All you are saying is that you are not condemning gays in the same sense you are not condemning murderers. Yeah that's very generously nonjudgmental. And I guess that's supposed to be very reassuring to gays.


Not comparing just another example. Understand that for God sin is sin, no matter who commits. Should we make a seperation between humans? We should only judge the sin. Sure, some sins are worse than others but everyone who commits sin is ruled by sin (a slave to sin). Jesus even says:

"Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him" (1 John 3:15)

"You have heard that it was said to our ancestors, Do not murder, and whoever murders will be subject to judgment. But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Fool!' will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, 'You moron!' will be subject to hellfire" (Matthew 5:21-22)

So to symbolically mean that you have murder in your heart. Too make you understand the severity of sin. So at least luckily the bullies are condemned for their life stroying behavior.


----------



## Royals

splendidbob said:


> @*Royals* don't you care about consequences?
> 
> I would have thought that the lord would have wanted people to actually _gain_ recruits, this is how he gets his magical power right? (the number of followers).
> 
> But why do you work your absolute hardest to effectively dissuade people from becoming one with him? Have you *not noticed that people haven't taken too well to your approach here*? Do you think that given this, those people who were wavering about their beliefs will have been bolstered by your approach, or seen the insanity and become fully atheist?
> 
> The problem is that as a (rather extreme sounding) religious person you pay no heed to moral consequence, only moral rule. You are thus able to act in ways that create the worst possible outcome for your goals and not even care.
> 
> That your rants will only _soften_ peoples metaphorical erections for the lord doesn't seem to bother you. In fact, you are probably more effective in reducing erectile tumescence for god per unit of reader, than an entire squadron of cloned sweatshop chained Richard Dawkinses churning out endless quantities of atheistic literature.
> 
> "I was considering suckling from the sour teat of the lord until I read from his greatest champion Royals".
> 
> "When I saw what Royals was saying, I simply had to turn to the devil".


I have to be honest man, that didn't exactly motivate me either  But not again man. I explained myself already many times. This is the gospel. It's just God's word. I shouldn't have to apologize for it. I didn't create it. You surely wouldn't like Jesus preaching if you already think I am too much. He called people hypocrites, dogs, murderers, and wolves. Don't you respect someone with a strong conviction and who stands up for what they believe in? I do. That's why I admire Jesus. What if you had the truth wouldn't you want to share it? The Bible says 'proclaim the truth from the rooftops'. It is meant to share, most of all if it sets people free.

It's about repentance from sins and getting saved. You can only come to repentance when you realize the severity of your sins. You can't become aware until you hear. God loves you so much that He wants to save you. I have seen so many people getting saved by hearing God's true word. And many people don't have a problem with it. Otherwise they wouldn't be ready to get saved. Only those who are ready will want to hear God's truth. So don't deny the chance to let them hear it. People are not converted by me but by the power of God's word! So just let me inform and explain it to people who want to know. Motivate me man, and bring some people to God also. The truth sets you free. Let me ask you would God be more pleased with someone who tried to speak about Him and make His word clear to them when they asked, or someone who didn't do or say anything so people didn't know and tried to stop them from reaching people?

If you have a better way to preach God's word let me hear it


----------



## truant

"And yea, so speaketh Bob, who was indeed Splendid:



splendidbob said:


> [MENTION=91953]your rants will only _soften_ peoples metaphorical erections for the lord


And it was so."

----------------

The more I listen to Christians, the gladder I am I was never infected with their mental virus. Being a Christian sounds like hell.


----------



## Royals

Furiosa said:


> Yes I understand, thanks for clarifying that, I was not aware of this information. I was initially always under the impression that Christians (and other religions) viewed being gay as a sin in itself, rather than just the sex part due to the mixed messages some religions give when it comes to these things.
> 
> I must say, I find that quite curious that it's the act of sex itself thats considered the sin, but gay love is okay. Personally I would have thought the latter would have been viewed as a bigger sin from God's perspective, to see two males or two females living together and building a life and home like a straight married couple, even if they are completely celibate. I mean the act of sex is usually a pretty quick thing, whereas for a relationship this can sometimes last for years and there are lots of emotions involved. Does that make sense?


Sure it makes sense. But again, we all choose who or what we want to serve.


----------



## Persephone The Dread

I was going to ask where my post went then realised it's pages back damn.


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Royals said:


> That simply talks about transvestites. So pretending you are a male if you're not and vice versa. When a woman wears a pants doesn't mean she wants to be a male or has the intention to act like she is a male. Gender roles is so important to God because He created man and woman clearly distinguished, so mixing up this image is blaspheming His word. That is why the devil wants to be androgynous because it destroys God's image of man and woman. See the baphomet image, half male and half woman.


Oh _that's _ why I love him. I don't think he wants to be btw, it's more just that he is, along with most similar mythological figures like Loki etc. Lilith was as well, and they didn't like her either...

Oh by the way:

http://christianity.stackexchange.c...ons-hold-the-belief-that-adam-was-androgynous

(I'm enjoying this too much.)

Isn't God androgynous though? When you think about it he has to be, how can Adam _and _ Even be made in his image if he isn't. Doesn't seem like he's living by his own rules, and God doesn't make mistakes so... Trololololol


----------



## Milco

Can you imagine if there was some bible verse or if Jesus ever talked about not believing yourself to be the embodiment of righteousness and truth, and not believing yourself fit to judge others or treat them with scorn. That'd be pretty ironic, huh?
Even more ironic if the whole religion is built on that core concept.


----------



## springbreeze1

Royals said:


> Not comparing just another example. Understand that for God sin is sin, no matter who commits. Should we make a seperation between humans? We should only judge the sin. Sure, some sins are worse than others but everyone who commits sin is ruled by sin (a slave to sin). Jesus even says:
> 
> "Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him" (1 John 3:15)
> 
> "You have heard that it was said to our ancestors, Do not murder, and whoever murders will be subject to judgment. But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Fool!' will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, 'You moron!' will be subject to hellfire" (Matthew 5:21-22)
> 
> So to symbolically mean that you have murder in your heart. Too make you understand the severity of sin. So at least luckily the bullies are condemned for their life stroying behavior.


I'm really not that much interested in how Christianity treats "sin", as what is considered sin. For me a man loves a man, or a woman loves a woman is not a sin. As simple as that.


----------



## KILOBRAVO

Persephone The Dread said:


> I'm not sure if I like small dicks, are they small? Some probably are. Difficult to see perspective. Average possibly. I like cute dicks. But it depends and I'm usually more focussed on the overall effect. I found dicks offputting for a long time. I've seen hundreds of dicks which is pretty surreal - 99.9% of them online. We live in a weird time...
> 
> Yesterday I saw a photo of someone with a rainbow strapon and rainbow socks that was cute. Dicks should come in rainbow colours sometimes. Like shiny Pokemon. Rare, but possible. I don't think I'm serious, but it was a cute photo.


lol. :lol. I think this post had the most frequently use of D I have read. Wonder why its.not sensored? anyway not sure what constitutes. small one? less than 5.5 inch.?. I shall just have to be content with the 6.75 inch I've got lol.

as.for the rainbow effect... Emm...... that just mkes me think of something silly. kinda file a.clown effect lol... no need to pm me Percy D, I think I.can imagine that... lol.... this thread took an unexpected turn :lol


----------



## Persephone The Dread

KILOBRAVO said:


> lol. :lol. I think this post had the most frequently use of D I have read. Wonder why its.not sensored? anyway not sure what constitutes. small one? less than 5.5 inch.?. I shall just have to be content with the 6.75 inch I've got lol.
> 
> as.for the rainbow effect... Emm...... that just mkes me think of something silly. kinda file a.clown effect lol... no need to pm me Percy D, I think I.can imagine that... lol.... this thread took an unexpected turn :lol


Man that was days ago, now I'm talking about Satan again. I think it's not censored because it's a name as well.


----------



## SplendidBob

Royals said:


> If you have a better way to preach God's word let me hear it


Well what is Christianity selling that people want?

Moral certainty. This is the point of Christianity (or any other religious deontology). You are offering the believer absolute certainty that they are good people. This is what they want, a nice clear moral path where there aren't any difficulties because they are following absolute and simple moral rules. Ideally too you want to make it so that they don't _actually_ have to follow them in order to get this sense of certainty. Christianity is amazing because it literally lets people do the most unimaginably bad acts and yet so long as they ask for forgiveness, so long as they believe, it all gets washed away. This isn't there by accident, it is there because it sells.

What could be better than feeling good from doing good stuff? Getting that same feeling without even having to do the good stuff. This is what you are selling. The warmth of self sacrifice without having to sacrifice a thing. Christianity is selling this feeling of being good all the time, _even if you don't do good things_.

You don't want to ignore the major selling point and tell people they are bad if they don't yet believe. _Once_ they are sold, and have been sucked in, _then_ you tell them how evil it is to not follow the teachings. If you tell non believers they are evil, that won't work as they will just immediately reject what you are saying, they will get defensive, you need to persuade them your way is better first.


----------



## AllTheSame

Fwiw you could have a dick of any color of the rainbow back in the 80's. I had one a few times....glow-in-the-dark condoms lmao. Yes, they were a very real thing. Not sure if they still sell them anymore....


Yeah I guess you can still buy them....at Walmart.com of all places...ffs....that has to be more than a little strange though for any woman..the lights are down low or off, you're in the mood, getting it on, and then a giant glow-in-the-dark dick starts coming at you....floating through the air, through the dark....


----------



## KILOBRAVO

lol^ i think I feel so silly wearing one of thosewith tj color or glow in the dark. to the outside observer something that already looks a kinda silly already Is going to look even more redickulous lol....


----------



## Royals

Persephone The Dread said:


> Oh _that's _ why I love him. I don't think he wants to be btw, it's more just that he is, along with most similar mythological figures like Loki etc. Lilith was as well, and they didn't like her either...
> 
> Oh by the way:
> 
> http://christianity.stackexchange.c...ons-hold-the-belief-that-adam-was-androgynous
> 
> (I'm enjoying this too much.)
> 
> Isn't God androgynous though? When you think about it he has to be, how can Adam _and _ Even be made in his image if he isn't. Doesn't seem like he's living by his own rules, and God doesn't make mistakes so... Trololololol


Hmmm, everywhere in the Bible it says God is a manly Spirit. Jesus always calls Him Abba (Father). So maybe the Holy Spirit could be womanly don't know. It's difficult with Spirits and what kind of identity they have. There is only one God no God's wife or something.


----------



## Royals

splendidbob said:


> Well what is Christianity selling that people want?
> 
> Moral certainty. This is the point of Christianity (or any other religious deontology). You are offering the believer absolute certainty that they are good people. This is what they want, a nice clear moral path where there aren't any difficulties because they are following absolute and simple moral rules. Ideally too you want to make it so that they don't _actually_ have to follow them in order to get this sense of certainty. Christianity is amazing because it literally lets people do the most unimaginably bad acts and yet so long as they ask for forgiveness, so long as they believe, it all gets washed away. This isn't there by accident, it is there because it sells.
> 
> What could be better than feeling good from doing good stuff? Getting that same feeling without even having to do the good stuff. This is what you are selling. The warmth of self sacrifice without having to sacrifice a thing. Christianity is selling this feeling of being good all the time, _even if you don't do good things_.
> 
> You don't want to ignore the major selling point and tell people they are bad if they don't yet believe. _Once_ they are sold, and have been sucked in, _then_ you tell them how evil it is to not follow the teachings. If you tell non believers they are evil, that won't work as they will just immediately reject what you are saying, they will get defensive, you need to persuade them your way is better first.


Right. Christianity is just a moral way to the truth or way of living. But Jesus actually said 'no one is good except the Father". So it's snot about being good or better than anyone.

'For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life" (Ephesians 2:9)

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"
(Romans 5:1)

No one said a life obeying God was easy or easier. But it must be worthwile if so many people choose this path. For me it is absolutely.

But how you described it that's not how it works. If it was that easy no person would fall away. After repentance of sins (asking forgiveness and leaving them behind) you put your faith in God and obey Him. You stop sinning daily, you become a saved person (saint) and no longer a sinner. So if, not when, you might stumble or fall as a believer

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness"
(1 John 1:9)

So it's a lie that once you are a believer and you fall once you are lost. No, the Bible says clearly that only those who 'keep on sinning after being saved are not truelly converted'. There has to be a change.

So repentance is once, a life of obedience and trying to resist and overcome sin is next. Surely you will fall sometimes even though you try. But at least now you try and don't delight in your sin as the sinner does. So notice the difference of intention also. And God sees if we really try or not. For God it's all about the intentions of the heart. Try to live years of battling sin, resisting it and overcoming it, saying no to your egoistical desires and tell me it's easy. It's a battle between flesh and spirit, Paul talked about it very thoroughly. He said the flesh let's us do things our spirit doesn't want.

So you are only talking about the hypocritcal Christians who sin during the week and go to church during the weekend. When a Christian tells you it's ok to sin everyday because God will forgive, don't listen to them. I explained to you the difference between a life in/of sin and willingly obedience to God.

Christianity is actually a selfishless thing because we give God all the glory and God loves us unconditinally. We freely give love and don't ask back.

That is why I never tell people they are going to hell. Because once they study the Bible they will know that themselves. But I don't agree with you on not telling people the truth right away. Christianity is built on the concept of sin, repentance and salvation. If someone doesn't know their sin is killing them they won't ever feel the need for repentance. Only conviction will do that. It doesn't help to say to a drunkard 'hey man God loves you, it's ok, go ahead, keep doing what you do'. Never justify people in their unrighteous behavior that's destructive. Instead do it biblically like Jesus did, and tell about the good news and severity of sin. Tell them God loves them but they do need to understand the conseqences of their lifestyle. This way only people will change. If you say you only tell them this after they are 'sucked in' that feels like lying to me. This isn't marketing or selling a product. It's about faith and conviction.

I don't think someone is necessarily evil (well some people are) but sin does corrupt the person. That's just biblical truth. Wether you agree with it or not.

And God is love, I already said that God loves us, but He can't tolerate sin.


----------



## Red October

Man, it's going to be super awkward for this guy when he dies and shows up in Asgard, with Odin waiting for tales of his battlefield heroics and feats of arms...


----------



## VanitysFiend

splendidbob said:


> Well what is Christianity selling that people want?
> 
> Moral certainty. This is the point of Christianity (or any other religious deontology). You are offering the believer absolute certainty that they are good people. This is what they want, a nice clear moral path where there aren't any difficulties because they are following absolute and simple moral rules. Ideally too you want to make it so that they don't _actually_ have to follow them in order to get this sense of certainty. Christianity is amazing because it literally lets people do the most unimaginably bad acts and yet so long as they ask for forgiveness, so long as they believe, it all gets washed away. This isn't there by accident, it is there because it sells.
> 
> *What could be better than feeling good from doing good stuff? Getting that same feeling without even having to do the good stuff. This is what you are selling. The warmth of self sacrifice without having to sacrifice a thing. Christianity is selling this feeling of being good all the time, even if you don't do good things.*
> 
> You don't want to ignore the major selling point and tell people they are bad if they don't yet believe. _Once_ they are sold, and have been sucked in, _then_ you tell them how evil it is to not follow the teachings. If you tell non believers they are evil, that won't work as they will just immediately reject what you are saying, they will get defensive, you need to persuade them your way is better first.


I think that's one of the best summaries of what makes some (most?) people fond of Christianity that I've read  It's not just about not having to do any good though, it's also about being able to sin in the knowledge that u won't really have to make amends to anyone but God, and all it takes is a few magic words with him. I know Christians who cling to their homophobic attitudes like it's a warm blanket but when u point out that they've engaged in pre marital sex, had one night stands, cheated on their partner, got divorced at least once (bonus points if they're a catholic), got blind drunk many, many times, taken illegal drugs, complained about the number of homeless people they see daily, spent more on clothes in the last month than they've given to charity all year, put career over family (if they're a woman), etc etc ad nauseam they go all, 'well I never said I was perfect, God doesn't expect me to be perfect, he forgives me my sins'. It's like they aren't even trying cause deep down they know they'd be miserable if they lived the way god wanted them to, so they just live the way they want to, but when it comes to a sin they don't partake in, like sodomy, then suddenly it becomes something u just can't do at all if u want to be right with God. W*nkers!


----------



## truant

Royals said:


> *Christianity is built on the concept of sin, repentance and salvation. If someone doesn't know their sin is killing them they won't ever feel the need for repentance.*


To quote Mariah Dillard from Luke Cage: "You gotta go big pharma on this s***. You invent the disease, then you sell the cure."



Royals said:


> That is why I never tell people they are going to hell. Because once they study the Bible they will know that themselves.


This line just made me lol.

Is this the 'good news' I've heard so much about?



Royals said:


> Never justify people in their unrighteous behavior that's destructive. Instead do it biblically like Jesus did, and tell about the good news and severity of sin.


Yup. In that case,


----------



## Carolyne

splendidbob said:


> A friend of mine works in a hospital and he told me that a lot of the time this happens to people and they have to come in to have these kinds of things taken out professionally.


I suspect many people would rather keep the truth between them and god.


----------



## SplendidBob

Carolyne said:


> I suspect many people would rather keep the truth between them and god.


Ah, I was worried there for a second, I deleted the post but thankfully you didn't quote the whole lot :b


----------



## SplendidBob

I think its actually better with that quote being all that remains of the post


----------



## Carolyne

splendidbob said:


> Ah, I was worried there for a second, I deleted the post but thankfully you didn't quote the whole lot :b


why?


----------



## SplendidBob

Carolyne said:


> why?


Hehe, I don't know if that kind of incident happening to Brian Blessed is appropriate for this forum


----------



## Red October

splendidbob said:


> Hehe, I don't know if that kind of incident happening to Brian Blessed is appropriate for this forum






Brian Blessed seems like a pretty adventurous sort, who knows what else he gets up to?

(I saw your deleted post too :b)


----------



## SplendidBob

Red October said:


> Brian Blessed seems like a pretty adventurous sort, who knows what else he gets up to?
> 
> (I saw your deleted post too :b)


The orangutan story had to be true


----------



## Royals

VanitysFiend said:


> I think that's one of the best summaries of what makes some (most?) people fond of Christianity that I've read  It's not just about not having to do any good though, it's also about being able to sin in the knowledge that u won't really have to make amends to anyone but God, and all it takes is a few magic words with him. I know Christians who cling to their homophobic attitudes like it's a warm blanket but when u point out that they've engaged in pre marital sex, had one night stands, cheated on their partner, got divorced at least once (bonus points if they're a catholic), got blind drunk many, many times, taken illegal drugs, complained about the number of homeless people they see daily, spent more on clothes in the last month than they've given to charity all year, put career over family (if they're a woman), etc etc ad nauseam they go all, 'well I never said I was perfect, God doesn't expect me to be perfect, he forgives me my sins'. It's like they aren't even trying cause deep down they know they'd be miserable if they lived the way god wanted them to, so they just live the way they want to, but when it comes to a sin they don't partake in, like sodomy, then suddenly it becomes something u just can't do at all if u want to be right with God. W*nkers!


Right, I already talked about that. You are talking about the hypocrtical Christians. Who say one thing and do another. Who think their salvation permits them to do anything. But I am talking about the Bible obeying believers.


----------



## Royals

splendidbob said:


> Ah, I was worried there for a second, I deleted the post but thankfully you didn't quote the whole lot :b


I am really curious what you wrote


----------



## Royals

truant said:


> To quote Mariah Dillard from Luke Cage: "You gotta go big pharma on this s***. You invent the disease, then you sell the cure."
> 
> This line just made me lol.
> 
> Is this the 'good news' I've heard so much about?
> 
> Yup. In that case,


Again, it's not a sales thing, it's a lifestyle, a relationship. Sure anything is for sale in this world, but not your soul, spirit and God. God owns me. What will it profit us if we own the whole world but lose our soul in the end?

Well the good doesn't exist without the bad right? Opposites attract, literally.
Personally I would want to hear the good and bad news. Because I wouldn't want to be fooled and get the shock of a life time when I find out I was seperated. As a sinner if I would only hear I was a good person and I would go to heaven I would be lied to. And I don't like lies or bad suprises so just in case I would like to know the consequences of my bad behavior. That is why I put my trust into God and read His word so that I know I am safe. Better to know and educate yourself than to be unknowing and suprised I always say.

What saddens and worries me most is how people treat the gospel like it's some kind of joke and that they only believe in what they see. Like they only live in the moment and can't see ahead. The gospel is life saving and this is not about a joke it's about the eternal peace of your soul! To me my inner rest, (everlasting) life, and relationship with God is the most important things in the world.


----------



## Milco

Royals said:


> And I don't like lies or bad suprises so just in case I would like to know the consequences of my bad behavior.


There are consequences to the bad behaviour you're currently engaged in, but you refuse to listen, call yourself a speaker of godly truth and don't care that you're harming others.
Any god that'd reward what you're doing is not a god worth praising, so thank god it's not real!


----------



## AngelClare

Persephone The Dread said:


> I can safely say this is a question I've never seen asked on SAS before.


But this is the kind of question you would only find here.


----------



## AngelClare

The New Testament doesn't say much about homosexuality. The concept of a homosexual didn't really exist yet. 

The Bible doesn't fully explain every single thing you can and cannot do. For example, Is smoking a sin? Is drinking alcohol a sin? Is oral sex a sin? 

Sins aren't just arbitrary rules. They are actions that are harmful to yourself and others. 

For example, premarital sex is generally harmful to society. 

I don't think being gay and being in a monogamous homosexual relationship is a sin. I think the homosexual acts discussed in the Bible are those we hear about in Roman and Greek culture where people have orgies and just have sex with men, women and even animals. It refers to people who have sex with the same sex just for lustful experimentation. In other words, hedonism is a sin. It would utterly impossible for a scriptures written over 2000 years ago to say it's OK to be gay. They would never have been accepted nor would they have understood what "gay" is. 

Moreover, even if a homosexual relationship is a sin then it can't be a very big sin. If heterosexual people struggle so much to be celibate until married, why condemn homosexual people for struggling too? If God asks homosexuals to overcome their urges then he's asking something that the vast majority of heterosexuals have failed to do. Moreover, a homosexual would be required to struggle with this his entire life. He wouldn't be able to solve the problem through marriage. A homosexual would be asked to adopt a celibate priests life. But the Bible says that the ability to accept a celibate life for God is a gift that not all men have. 

I think it makes more sense to focus on being honest, kind, forgiving and loving to your fellow man. 

As a Christian you have the freedom to read the Bible yourself and if you have accepted the Holy Spirit, ask the Spirit to make the issue clear in your own heart. I won't judge a homosexual for an urge that I don't have.

(How did this thread become about homosexuality and Christianity?)


----------



## truant

Royals said:


> Again, it's not a sales thing, it's a lifestyle, a relationship. Sure anything is for sale in this world, but not your soul, spirit and God. God owns me. What will it profit us if we own the whole world but lose our soul in the end?
> 
> Well the good doesn't exist without the bad right? Opposites attract, literally.
> Personally I would want to hear the good and bad news. Because I wouldn't want to be fooled and get the shock of a life time when I find out I was seperated. As a sinner if I would only hear I was a good person and I would go to heaven I would be lied to. And I don't like lies or bad suprises so just in case I would like to know the consequences of my bad behavior. That is why I put my trust into God and read His word so that I know I am safe. Better to know and educate yourself than to be unknowing and suprised I always say.
> 
> What saddens and worries me most is how people treat the gospel like it's some kind of joke and that they only believe in what they see. Like they only live in the moment and can't see ahead. The gospel is life saving and this is not about a joke it's about the eternal peace of your soul! To me my inner rest, (everlasting) life, and relationship with God is the most important things in the world.


But all your posts are sales pitches. Ofc you're going to try to convince me that you're not 'selling something', that's what salespeople do. "Sure it's expensive, but haven't you earned it after all the work you've done?!" (trans. "I'm not selling you something, I'm giving you permission to reward yourself."), "Don't think of it as an expense, think of it as an investment in your future!" (trans. "I'm not selling you something, I'm helping you take control of your life."), "It's not a sales thing, it's a lifestyle, a relationship!" (trans. "I'm not selling you something, I'm showing you a better way to live.") The heart of sales is spin, and that's all proselytizers do: spin, spin, spin their religion. Because the more people they convince, the better they feel about themselves and the more justified they feel in their faith. Maybe you'll get your portrait up on the wall in the Heavenly HO as Employee of the Month.

Good and bad exist as help and harm in the real world. Those are things everyone can verify for themselves. You don't need religion to tell you what's good and bad; all you need is empathy and the ability to reason. Which is why atheists are no more or less moral than theists. The concepts 'good' and 'bad' news, sin, Heaven and Hell, God, Jesus as a savior -- those are all part of a package deal you have to sell to an unbeliever. You have to convince us that your metephysics is real. That might have been easy to do a couple thousand years ago when people still believed in gods, witches, and magic, but it's a pretty hard sell these days. I have no reason to believe anything Christians say about their religion. The whole thing is unnecessary to me; a curio in a museum. So when you preach about these things I have much the same reaction that I used to get when people raved about Harry Potter.

I don't worry about God or the afterlife. I don't believe that if there is a God that he's less moral than I am, so I have no fear of his judgment. If I were God, I certainly wouldn't send someone to Hell simply because my salespeople hadn't convinced him or her to believe in me. That would make me a cosmic a******. My judgments would be based on the amount of harm they caused other people, and since I'm not harming anyone through my behavior, which is as moral as any good Christian's, what would I have to worry about? If there is a God and he sends me to Hell for not believing and for being transgender and interested in men, then imo he's a contemptible, vain, and petty god not deserving of my worship. It's just really hard to see any reason why I should care about following the Bible or why I should take your opinions about what is or is not immoral (because a 'sin') seriously.


----------



## Royals

Milco said:


> There are consequences to the bad behaviour you're currently engaged in, but you refuse to listen, call yourself a speaker of godly truth and don't care that you're harming others.
> Any god that'd reward what you're doing is not a god worth praising, so thank god it's not real!


Aren't you judging me? Practice what you preach. I am simply answering people's questions about the Bible is that not allowed? Not evrybody is going to agree and not everybody has to listen.


----------



## Royals

truant said:


> But all your posts are sales pitches. Ofc you're going to try to convince me that you're not 'selling something', that's what salespeople do. "Sure it's expensive, but haven't you earned it after all the work you've done?!" (trans. "I'm not selling you something, I'm giving you permission to reward yourself."), "Don't think of it as an expense, think of it as an investment in your future!" (trans. "I'm not selling you something, I'm helping you take control of your life."), "It's not a sales thing, it's a lifestyle, a relationship!" (trans. "I'm not selling you something, I'm showing you a better way to live.") The heart of sales is spin, and that's all proselytizers do: spin, spin, spin their religion. Because the more people they convince, the better they feel about themselves and the more justified they feel in their faith. Maybe you'll get your portrait up on the wall in the Heavenly HO as Employee of the Month.
> 
> Good and bad exist as help and harm in the real world. Those are things everyone can verify for themselves. You don't need religion to tell you what's good and bad; all you need is empathy and the ability to reason. Which is why atheists are no more or less moral than theists. The concepts 'good' and 'bad' news, sin, Heaven and Hell, God, Jesus as a savior -- those are all part of a package deal you have to sell to an unbeliever. You have to convince us that your metephysics is real. That might have been easy to do a couple thousand years ago when people still believed in gods, witches, and magic, but it's a pretty hard sell these days. I have no reason to believe anything Christians say about their religion. The whole thing is unnecessary to me; a curio in a museum. So when you preach about these things I have much the same reaction that I used to get when people raved about Harry Potter.
> 
> I don't worry about God or the afterlife. I don't believe that if there is a God that he's less moral than I am, so I have no fear of his judgment. If I were God, I certainly wouldn't send someone to Hell simply because my salespeople hadn't convinced him or her to believe in me. That would make me a cosmic a******. My judgments would be based on the amount of harm they caused other people, and since I'm not harming anyone through my behavior, which is as moral as any good Christian's, what would I have to worry about? If there is a God and he sends me to Hell for not believing and for being transgender and interested in men, then imo he's a contemptible, vain, and petty god not deserving of my worship. It's just really hard to see any reason why I should care about following the Bible or why I should take your opinions about what is or is not immoral (because a 'sin') seriously.


You act like I am sharing this for myself. No, this is not about myself. It's about others and pleasing God. Doesn't anyone share an opinion to help others and/or to be noticed? Well I am not doing it for attention but to bring attention to God and to help others get clarity. What is wrong about that? You can intrpret what I say however you want but it's not like that. When you have something against God's word ofcourse you see it in a negative light and cringe everytime someone tells the gospel. Well that is your opinion and right but you can't think for me and know why I do something and with what intentions. Only God knows.

So everyone can determine what is good or bad for them? So who is to say if stealing or killing is really bad? Because someone might believe otherwise.
Human only has subjective opinion not objetive truth. People need someone to guide them. Who knows better and loves them more than anything in this world. Sin doesn't make anyone moral. Whoever is with sin is less moral than someone who is without. God makes you righteous.

I don't sell anything. I don't ask money. I just do my religious duty. Sharing the gospel (to those who want to hear or not). I don't spend my time trying to convert those who already made the choice not to believe. I only share how I feel from a biblical point of view. What I believe. Billions of people still believe, nothing has changed. Spirituality and religion only grows. So people must be quite receptive to faith and God. Why do you have no reason to believe in what believers say? And why is it unneccesarry. Give me on good reason. Do you have fear to be responisble to God or afraid that life might be harder when you are?

You only make assumptions but you don't know.

It's not people's job to convince/convert but God's. People can only plant seeds. God does the sowing.

If if...you don't decide the universal laws and rules.

Sin harms yourself and others around you. So that is why I am aware of it.
You still don't understand there is a big difference between sinners and saved. Everyone who belongs to God and obeys Him is saved, those who live in sin and for the world ant themselves are not saved. Humans can think of believe anything, make up their own reality or God, but that doesn't make God or the spiritual world dissapear. I was once a sinner, now I'm
saved. I was blind now I see. I was lost now I'm found.

So you can do nothing about this if God created everything and you need to be saved to receive eternal life. That purpose/plan is already set in motion before creation. I just accept that.

You simply decide how God can act, while God acts on His own. I couldn't even tell God what to do because I don't know better. And I am not that mighty. God has certain rules/laws and we have to obey them wether we like it ot not. Just because God is loving enough to want the best for us. And doesn't want us to hurt ourselves. Doesn't mean He is a hateful God.
Satan is hateful since he wants to destroy us and wants us to sin and hurt us. God is love.

If you don't understand the concept of sin and salvation than ti's not for you.
But to me it's very logical. Human got corrupted since Adam and Eve sinned. Sin came into the world. Kain murdered. So since we are with sin we someone to save us from it because we cannot save ourselves. For this reason Jesus came to earth to heal us. And for this reason God offers salvation through the Holy Spirit. Sin seperates us from a holy God. God hates sin and so cannot expect us to be in His presence with a sinful heart. 
So He gave us 10 commandments for that reason.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Do you have fear to be responisble to God or afraid that life might be harder when you are?


I sure as heck fear God. There's no other way to be when you know that you disobey half of His 'rules' just by breathing. Perhaps it's easy for certain people to believe in Him, the way it's easier to climb a hill than a mountain.


----------



## Royals

AngelClare said:


> The New Testament doesn't say much about homosexuality. The concept of a homosexual didn't really exist yet.
> 
> The Bible doesn't fully explain every single thing you can and cannot do. For example, Is smoking a sin? Is drinking alcohol a sin? Is oral sex a sin?
> 
> Sins aren't just arbitrary rules. They are actions that are harmful to yourself and others.
> 
> For example, premarital sex is generally harmful to society.
> 
> I don't think being gay and being in a monogamous homosexual relationship is a sin. I think the homosexual acts discussed in the Bible are those we hear about in Roman and Greek culture where people have orgies and just have sex with men, women and even animals. It refers to people who have sex with the same sex just for lustful experimentation. In other words, hedonism is a sin. It would utterly impossible for a scriptures written over 2000 years ago to say it's OK to be gay. They would never have been accepted nor would they have understood what "gay" is.
> 
> Moreover, even if a homosexual relationship is a sin then it can't be a very big sin. If heterosexual people struggle so much to be celibate until married, why condemn homosexual people for struggling too? If God asks homosexuals to overcome their urges then he's asking something that the vast majority of heterosexuals have failed to do. Moreover, a homosexual would be required to struggle with this his entire life. He wouldn't be able to solve the problem through marriage. A homosexual would be asked to adopt a celibate priests life. But the Bible says that the ability to accept a celibate life for God is a gift that not all men have.
> 
> I think it makes more sense to focus on being honest, kind, forgiving and loving to your fellow man.
> 
> As a Christian you have the freedom to read the Bible yourself and if you have accepted the Holy Spirit, ask the Spirit to make the issue clear in your own heart. I won't judge a homosexual for an urge that I don't have.
> 
> (How did this thread become about homosexuality and Christianity?)


I know. But's it's all in there. Just read and study it. There's not much about homosexuality. But Paul condemns it a lot. He says homosexuals won't inherit the kingdom. Still Jesus talked about sin. So whoever it is, if you are with sin, you are seperated from God. Because the devil is a sinner from the beginning. He said that whoever sins is of his father the devil. Drinking is not forbidden but drunkeness is. Smoking is forbidden because it damages your health. And the Bible says to treat your body like a temple of the Holy Spirit, so don't pollute it. Think about whatever you do if its honoring God. Smoking isn't, getting wasted isn't, cheating isn't. Any substance wich alters the mind or makes you not focus on God is bad:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, *witchcraft ("pharmakia" or drug use)*, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies" (Galatians 5:16-20)


Oral sex is sexual perverion or unnatural sex so yes it's a sin. You use the body for different uses it's made form. Yes you said it right, sins hurt yourself and others. 



When sin does damage to the body like sexual disease or unsafe sex it's bad. Because you are not honoring your body. It's unhealthy. 



Maybe you are right, maybe Paul was describing homsexuals at that time who were living a hedonistic lifestyle and praciticing pedophiliia or other immoral acts. But today still a lot of gays live unethetically and AIDS percentages are highest among them. So again, the sin convicts a person, not a healthy loving relationship.



But just because two men have a relationship doesn't mean it's intended to be that way or that it's natural. Jesus still preached that a man will leave his family to reunite with a woman, and God created a man and woman in His image. So yes, people have always live immoral from back then till now. Sin always existed. 



I think there's exceptions like you for instance are people at fault who are born a certain way? If you are born with a physical or mental disease can you help it? Sin is a choice wich we make, so we have to be responsible for it. That we can help. But God can't blame us for bbeing born with something. But only if you believe God created people with a certain defect. Isn't His creation suppose to be perfect and holy? Does the defect not create itself after birth?
So you either believe God creates perfect beings and is against homosexuality so He can't create them. Or He creates anyone with an opposing fleshly urge or mind and doesn't condemn sin. It's up to you what to believe.



Still, there's plenty of homosexuals who are ex gay and are saved. They don't have those urges anymore. So it does happen. So if it conversions happen does that mean it's a choice?


Believers struggle with sin also. It's normal for any believer. Doesn't mean we have to indulge in it everyday. We also have a daily choice to make. Do you believe everyboyd has a choice or chooses to follow God or themselves or not? Priests/monks choose a life a celibacy also, because they think serving God is more fulfilling.

Right, loving others as yourself and loving God. So sinning is the opposite of that.

Ofcourse you don't judge because you're not God  As a Christian do you follow yourself or God?

Eum I think I answered the thread and said something about adult stars are raped for money and someone answered me and then it went off. But Iit's a good conversation. Thanks, you're making me think and adding to it!


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> I sure as heck fear God. There's no other way to be when you know that you disobey half of His 'rules' just by breathing. Perhaps it's easy for certain people to believe in Him, the way it's easier to climb a hill than a mountain.


We shouldn't have fear about what God is able to do. But obedience and awe to/for God. Because you shouldn't have to be afraid of a loving and merciful God.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> We shouldn't have fear about what God is able to do. But obedience and awe to/for God. Because you shouldn't have to be afraid of a loving and merciful God.


I think I missed the 'loving and merciful' part. I get fixated on the 'hell' and 'smiting'.


----------



## Carolyne

AngelClare said:


> (How did this thread become about homosexuality and Christianity?)


Royals felt that porn actresses would date a rapist because they must be okay with getting raped if they work in porn. He then clarified that the Bible therefore porn is rape.


----------



## TheWelshOne

@Royals I wonder if you could explain something to me about sin.

When does it begin? As people, are we born with it? That's why you baptise children, right? So that they'll get into heaven until they're able to comprehend for themselves what they're doing. I was baptised at 6 months old; if I'd died before that, would I have gone to hell?


----------



## Red October

Royals said:


> "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are: ... *emulations* ... (Galatians 5:16-20)


Guess I'm damned then, I use n64 and playstation 2 emulators all the time :lol


----------



## Milco

Royals said:


> Aren't you judging me? Practice what you preach. I am simply answering people's questions about the Bible is that not allowed? Not evrybody is going to agree and not everybody has to listen.


You're not just answering people's questions. You're inserting your own opinions and you're telling people they are violating god and they will be going to hell.
Of course I'm judging you for the bad behaviour you are doing, but I'm not saying you'll go to hell - no hell even exists - and I'm not claiming to be speaking for some divine power with ultimate truth, thus making me a source of ultimate truth and my opinions infallible.

You're being as the pharisees and you are spreading hate.


----------



## Royals

Milco said:


> You're not just answering people's questions. You're inserting your own opinions and you're telling people they are violating god and they will be going to hell.
> Of course I'm judging you for the bad behaviour you are doing, but I'm not saying you'll go to hell - no hell even exists - and I'm not claiming to be speaking for some divine power with ultimate truth, thus making me a source of ultimate truth and my opinions infallible.
> 
> You're being as the pharisees and you are spreading hate.


That is just not true. Where did I ever said people are going to hell or condemn them? i used biblical words all the time. And I quote from the book constantly. You can look it up. So you are judging me for my bad behavior but I can't judge sin from a biblical perspective? This is a contradcition pr double standard. I am saying what the Bible says, not claiming to be a spokesperson of God at all. Before you make assumptions read what I said. I said God has the objective truth. He is the moral and righteous authority. Jesus said 'I am the truth'. The pharisees were hypocritical in their behavior, how they dressed or prayed at marketplaces. I don't do those things. And if you call simply explaining biblical doctrine and answering people hate then tell me how I should say it differently? Don't you understand you feel personally attacked and therefore have a problem with God's word wich I quote from the Bible.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> @*Royals* I wonder if you could explain something to me about sin.
> 
> When does it begin? As people, are we born with it? That's why you baptise children, right? So that they'll get into heaven until they're able to comprehend for themselves what they're doing. I was baptised at 6 months old; if I'd died before that, would I have gone to hell?


Well, born with sin or original sin is not a biblical doctrine. It's not in the Bible. Just because we have sin and the abbility to sin doesn't mean we are sinners. We only become sinners when we sin, or live in sin. Babies don't even have to get baptized, and they go to heaven anyway because they have not yet developed the willingly choice to sin. Only those who willingly know not to sin or want to sin are held accountable. It's all about your faith and relationship with God.

Some verses:

'Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 19:13-14)

"And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it" (Deteronomy 1:39)

"And said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3)


----------



## Royals

Red October said:


> Guess I'm damned then, I use n64 and playstation 2 emulators all the time :lol


Me too, I have a lot of emulators  But not be worried it means rivalry or jealolusy not videogames  They weren't even invented back then!


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Well, born with sin or original sin is not a biblical doctrine. It's not in the Bible. Just because we have sin and the abbility to sin doesn't mean we are sinners. We only become sinners when we sin, or live in sin. Babies don't even have to get baptized, and they go to heaven anyway because they have not yet developed the willingly choice to sin. Only those who willingly know not to sin or want to sin are held accountable. It's all about your faith and relationship with God.


OK, but then if you didn't tell people about sin, they'd all go to Heaven because they wouldn't know any different.

Which I do find strange, tbh. Shouldn't Christians want Heaven to be filled with people like them? You don't want the sinners in the afterlife too, that's why it's called Paradise, because it's filled with the good people.


----------



## Milco

Royals said:


> That is just not true. Where did I ever said people are going to hell or condemn them?


You've said it many times. That sinners go to hell, and then you go on to call people sinners. It's not exactly hidden.

Here for example:


Royals said:


> Mostly out of love because Christians don't want people to perish in their sins. God doesn't want us to perish. If someone is drowning wouldn't you try to save them? If someone falls wouldn't you pick them up? It's only natural to help others out of love and care. Jesus preached about hell more than anything else but in a more loving way. You shouldn't preach in a condeming way but in a loving, accepting way. But hell is a big part of the Bible so it's important to talk about. And the truth is that unrepented sinners go to hell. Hell is a place or wheeping and gnashing of teeth. Who would want someone to go there? If you really love someone you dont sin or watch others sin and destroy yourself and others. If you love someone you would warn them about sin and the consequences.


And this would be condemning people:


Royals said:


> Masturbating doesn't please God but removes yourself from Him. It only pleases satan.





Royals said:


> So you are judging me for my bad behavior but I can't judge sin from a biblical perspective? This is a contradcition pr double standard.


I'm telling you to stop harming other human beings and to stop being prejudiced.
People need help and protection from the harm other people can do to them. If there were a god, it'd be very unlikely he/she/it would need your protection.



Royals said:


> I am saying what the Bible says, not claiming to be a spokesperson of God at all.


Oh really?


Royals said:


> I only stand for the truth. God's truth. And I am not ashamed to share it.





Royals said:


> I stand for God's truth.I share, believe and preach God's truth.





Royals said:


> Before you make assumptions read what I said. I said God has the objective truth. He is the moral and righteous authority. Jesus said 'I am the truth'. The pharisees were hypocritical in their behavior, how they dressed or prayed at marketplaces. I don't do those things.


The pharisees (at least according to the stories) believed themselves more righteous and pious than others. They believed themselves so pure, they rivalled god and above the biblical teachings, so...



Royals said:


> But personally when someone told me about God's truth I wouldn't deny it and listen to his wise advise.


Don't deny that you are acting in that way when you say things like:



Royals said:


> I took the speck out of my own eye, I am currently without sin (don't live in it), and I only make a jugdement like others do. We all need to judge things, form an judgment, not condemn. The Bible makes a lcear distnguishment between judging (forming an opinion) and condeming (falsely accusing others). This is all biblical. Those who usually don't like judgement are with sin.





Royals said:


> And if you call simply explaining biblical doctrine and answering people hate then tell me how I should say it differently?


You should accept that people don't want to hear what you have to say and stop.
It would also be good if you could accept that what you're 'preaching' is christian fundamentalism, that most christians don't believe - you do not represent christian truth, but only the type you believe in. That is, you only represent yourself and your own opinion.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> OK, but then if you didn't tell people about sin, they'd all go to Heaven because they wouldn't know any different.
> 
> Which I do find strange, tbh. Shouldn't Christians want Heaven to be filled with people like them? You don't want the sinners in the afterlife too, that's why it's called Paradise, because it's filled with the good people.


Yes basically, also the Bible says that those people who never heard about God or His word for some reason can't be held accountable to not know. But in these rare exceptions you have to be someone who doesn't know right from wrong. Because we are all born with a brain, and moral/ethical codes right? We have a concisence so we at least should know what is right or wrong to do. So all are responsible for their words and actions and will be held accountable and be judged based on those. So even if you haven't heard of God or the Bible you should know if you are causing yourself or others harm right? And even if you didn't know does that mean you have to be a bad person? So there's no real excuse to not know.

So sin just means doing wrong, the opposite of God's word. So someone who doesn't know about sin still can live in sin (unconsciously). And all sinners are seperated from God because God hates sin. So there's no sinners in heaven.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Yes basically, also the Bible says that those people who never heard about God or His word for some reason can't be held accountable to not know. But in these rare exceptions you have to be someone who doesn't know right from wrong. Because we are all born with a brain, and moral/ethical codes right? We have a concisence so we at least should know what is right or wrong to do. So all are responsible for their words and actions and will be held accountable and be judged based on those. So even if you haven't heard of God or the Bible you should know if you are causing yourself or others harm right? And even if you didn't know does that mean you have to be a bad person? So there's no real excuse to not know.
> 
> So sin just means doing wrong, the opposite of God's word. So someone who doesn't know about sin still can live in sin (unconsciously). And all sinners are seperated from God because God hates sin. So there's no sinners in heaven.


But now I'm confused. People have their own moral code, yes. And a lot of the time it lines right up with the Ten Commandments. So if I lived my life morally, that's the same as living without sin. So I'd get into Heaven even though I don't believe in God? Don't you have to accept Jesus to get into Heaven? Or is it an either/or situation; you either live morally without the knowledge of God, or you accept Jesus into your heart, and both ways get you to Heaven.

And if we're all sinners, and no sinners are allowed in Heaven, it's gonna be pretty lonely up there. Or do you mean there are no *redeemed* sinners in Heaven?

(I'm not trying to bait you, btw; I find this fascinating)


----------



## Royals

Milco said:


> You've said it many times. That sinners go to hell, and then you go on to call people sinners. It's not exactly hidden.
> 
> Here for example:
> 
> And this would be condemning people:
> 
> I'm telling you to stop harming other human beings and to stop being prejudiced.
> People need help and protection from the harm other people can do to them. If there were a god, it'd be very unlikely he/she/it would need your protection.
> 
> Oh really?
> 
> The pharisees (at least according to the stories) believed themselves more righteous and pious than others. They believed themselves so pure, they rivalled god and above the biblical teachings, so...
> 
> Don't deny that you are acting in that way when you say things like:
> 
> You should accept that people don't want to hear what you have to say and stop.
> It would also be good if you could accept that what you're 'preaching' is christian fundamentalism, that most christians don't believe - you do not represent christian truth, but only the type you believe in. That is, you only represent yourself and your own opinion.


I said sinners are seperated from God by their sins. It's biblical fact.

Ok, but it's purely subjective. You call it condeming, Others think otherwise. For instance I have a normal nice conversation with TheWelsOne and he doesn't say I condemn him. I call it biblical truth. When I quote from a book shouldn't you blame the author? It's God word you don't agree with. Ask yourself why you can't take it?

I can't help it if someone reacts a certain way to God's word. They can choose to embrace it or deny/ignore it. I am not at fault for sharing biblical truth. They have a problem with the Bible. We call can say what we want especially when I don't have intention to offend. I never adress someone personally, but I talk in general. I merely make righteous judgments, I don't insult and say 'you are bad for being this way!'. I simply say 'this is what it means' and explain it the best way I can. So it's not condeming but explaining.

I am not above others and I am not perfect, I give God the glory. If I preach God's word from the Bible it means I proclaim God's truth.

I was talking about if I was a sinner I would be open to God's word not try to justify my sins.

You say people like it means only you and that it's the truth. Plenty people are interested and want to hear why speak and decide for them? Christian fundamentalism says you. Most Christians know this is basic knowledge and truth. Ofcourse any unbeliever thinks anything religious is fundamentalism but it's just normal biblical doctrine. I wouldn't expect anything less. 
Study the word more and you will see.
You don't know what real fundamentalism is if you say that. I never said I hate gays or other believers. I only preach God's word.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> But now I'm confused. People have their own moral code, yes. And a lot of the time it lines right up with the Ten Commandments. So if I lived my life morally, that's the same as living without sin. So I'd get into Heaven even though I don't believe in God? Don't you have to accept Jesus to get into Heaven? Or is it an either/or situation; you either live morally without the knowledge of God, or you accept Jesus into your heart, and both ways get you to Heaven.
> 
> And if we're all sinners, and no sinners are allowed in Heaven, it's gonna be pretty lonely up there. Or do you mean there are no *redeemed* sinners in Heaven?
> 
> (I'm not trying to bait you, btw; I find this fascinating)


Good questions. A person can have good morals and not know but still sin. For example I can believe it's wrong to murder but still get drunk. The Bible says that we are all sinners (except babies and children not old enough to know wrong from right) without being saved and obeying God. So what it all comes down to is wether you are saved (from our sins) or not and to live according to God's commanments and obeying those. That will mean you will get to heaven. Yes you have to believe in God and Jesus because Jesus said 'he who doesn't have me doesn't have the Father'. So ofcourse you cannot be in a place where you loved one and don't like the other. In heaven everybody loves each other and their is no envy or hate.

I am not the one to say who the exceptions are. Sure it's possible someone who lives moral goes to heaven but who knows for sure? Jesus said 'nothing is impossible for God', and 'the last shall be first'. People can gamble to get into heaven. But how sure do you want to be? When you get saved and obey God you know for sure you will enter heaven. Anything else, like not believing and living moral is an unsure thing because God has the final judgement. Personally I don't want to live like 'maybe this will get me into heaven we will see'. I rather decide now, repent, and obey God's commandments to be safe.

Yes, like you said, only redeemed/saved sinners are in heaven.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Good questions. A person can have good morals and not know but still sin. For example I can believe it's wrong to murder but still get drunk. The Bible says that we are all sinners (except babies and children not old enough to know wrong from right) without being saved and obeying God. So what it all comes down to is wether you are saved (from our sins) or not and to live according to God's commanments and obeying those. That will mean you will get to heaven. Yes you have to believe in God and Jesus because Jesus said 'he who doesn't have me doesn't have the Father'. So ofcourse you cannot be in a place where you loved one and don't like the other. In heaven everybody loves each other and their is no envy or hate.
> 
> I am not the one to say who the exceptions are. Sure it's possible someone who lives moral goes to heaven but who knows for sure? Jesus said 'nothing is impossible for God', and 'the last shall be first'. People can gamble to get into heaven. But how sure do you want to be? When you get saved and obey God you know for sure you will enter heaven. Anything else, like not believing and living moral is an unsure thing because God has the final judgement. Personally I don't want to live like 'maybe this will get me into heaven we will see'. I rather decide now, repent, and obey God's commandments to be safe.
> 
> Yes, like you said, only redeemed/saved sinners are in heaven.


So, what's to stop people repenting on their deathbeds and getting into Heaven? Even the biggest sinners in the world could confess their sins and be saved before they die.


----------



## Milco

Royals said:


> When I quote from a book shouldn't you blame the author? It's God word you don't agree with.


That's what makes you a christian fundamentalist.
Most christians recognise that the bible isn't the infallible word of god, but has been written by human beings over a long period of time. Human beings who were subject to all the temptations and faults that people have. So any 'truths' should be taken with a grain of salt and understood through interpretation.
When you interpret the bible, you're interpreting the word of man.



Royals said:


> Ask yourself why you can't take it?


Well, god doesn't actually exist, so that kinda makes it rather pointless.



Royals said:


> You say people like it means only you and that it's the truth. Plenty people are interested and want to hear why speak and decide for them?


Then ask people if they want to hear your religious interpretation, and stop preaching it if they tell you to stop.
This forum is open to every one, so stating that for example all people who masturbate are sinners and that all sinners go to hell, that's not talking to people who have asked for your interpretation.
I don't want to see anybody harmed or made to self-hate because of your religious conservatism.



Royals said:


> Christian fundamentalism says you. Most Christians know this is basic knowledge and truth. Ofcourse any unbeliever thinks anything religious is fundamentalism but it's just normal biblical doctrine. I wouldn't expect anything less.


No, I have met many very reasonable christians who would strongly disagree with what you're saying.
The bishops in our national church would as well.
The religious views you represent are very much fundamentalist.


----------



## Red October

Kind of off-topic (but so is most of this thread), just a few things I'm curious about



Royals said:


> If I preach God's word from the Bible it means I proclaim God's truth.


Were you raised as a christian?

What do you think of people who were raised in other religious traditions (e.g. someone raised as a muslim in saudi arabia), who would refer to the quran as God's word?

If you had been born to islamic parents, and regularly attended a mosque as you grew up, do you think you would have become a christian still?

If a person was raised with no religious tradition, and learned about religion later in life, seeing all the different systems of belief, holy books, teachings, etc. How would that person be able to know which of them was right?

Do you ever worry that your interpretation of God's word might not be the most correct one? that there might be something you've misinterpreted or misunderstood, wether it's a minor or a major discrepancy?

I ask the last one because you seem very confident and firm in your faith, but do you think you've prepared yourself to leave that certainty behind if one day you find yourself before God, and are told you had been mistaken?



Royals said:


> 'nothing is impossible for God', and 'the last shall be first'.


Could God forgive Satan?

Do you (or do you know any others who) ever pray from Satan to see the light and repent?

If that happened, what would that mean for the inhabitants of hell?


----------



## sad1231234

The whole concept of this eternal hell stuff is bs. Who in their sane mind actually believes in getting tortured forever by a kind, loving God just for merely committing some finite sins? According to the Bible, the minority of people will go to heaven, and the majority of people wont make it, but will instead spend the rest of eternity suffering Gods wrath and being scorched by everlasting hellfire. Why the hell do we humans even choose to reproduce, thus perpetuating the cycle of people going to hell for all eternity(a rather long period of time)?

It just shows how brainless many people are. I mean, come on, think about the future. If you're going to have kids, just so you can have a sense of joy and of accomplishment in this life, at least think about the fact that more likely than not, they will go to hell to burn forever and ever. Its such a stupid doctrine. I think either an eternal hell does not exist and the concept of it is based on translation errors(google "hell translation error") or God does not exist. I think what it comes down to is that people dont really think when it comes to religion, they just accept it as truth because it gives them hope and peace of mind. 

And how did a thread about dating rapists turn into a theological debate? :'D


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> So, what's to stop people repenting on their deathbeds and getting into Heaven? Even the biggest sinners in the world could confess their sins and be saved before they die.


Sure if you sincerely mean it. Remember the thief on the cross got saved. But again it depends on your intention and sincerity. Do you really mean it? Sinning your whole life and thinking 'oh I do everything I want and God will forgive me in the end' is different than sinning your whole life and in the end realiziing 'oh I never knew I need repentance'. Repentance is not a daily thing, it's one time life changing decision. o if you know you should know better, iif you don't you will find out.


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## Royals

Milco said:


> That's what makes you a christian fundamentalist.
> Most christians recognise that the bible isn't the infallible word of god, but has been written by human beings over a long period of time. Human beings who were subject to all the temptations and faults that people have. So any 'truths' should be taken with a grain of salt and understood through interpretation.
> When you interpret the bible, you're interpreting the word of man.
> 
> Well, god doesn't actually exist, so that kinda makes it rather pointless.
> 
> Then ask people if they want to hear your religious interpretation, and stop preaching it if they tell you to stop.
> This forum is open to every one, so stating that for example all people who masturbate are sinners and that all sinners go to hell, that's not talking to people who have asked for your interpretation.
> I don't want to see anybody harmed or made to self-hate because of your religious conservatism.
> 
> No, I have met many very reasonable christians who would strongly disagree with what you're saying.
> The bishops in our national church would as well.
> The religious views you represent are very much fundamentalist.


Ehh no, every normal believer knows the Bible is God's inspired/breathed word. And the word says The Holy Spirit leads you to all truth. So no risk of error there.

Just beause you don't believe in God doesn't mean you have to be against it. Why do atheists fight God's word so passionately if they didn't mind it?

So I should ask people's permission to speak or share what I want to say? 
Why again make the exception with religious views? Because you don't like it? I don't need anyone's permission, I have freedom speech and belief.

I demonstrate what I say with backing it up with biblical scripture. That is why I call people who sin, sinners. Don't you agree with calling people homosexuals, criminals, murderers, drunkards, liars either? If the shoe fits wear it. And don't take it personal, you have the choice to ignore it.

You are still determining what I should say wich is not your right. I won't tell you what to say or believe. I support freedom of beliefs, I share my beliefs from a blblical perspective because I believe in the Bible. People can defend themselves, if anyone doesn't agree it's their right. I don't have to agree with you. So again, it's not my intention to harm anyone but only to explain and inform. If you don't agree, you can ignore it, or not speak about it. I love to talk to those who are interested and want to know more.

How do the bishops in your churches preach then? Because in Christianity salvation, sin, heaven, hell and repentance are basic concepts we preach about. In church also. So if you think that's fundamentalism so be it. Do you think Jesus and the apostles were fundamenalists also? They called people sinners, hypocrites, liars, dogs, wicked etc. So it's all biblical. I could easily say it in different words if you want, people who commit sin, or people who do bad things, sinner is just a shorter biblical term.


----------



## Furiosa

Milco said:


> That's what makes you a christian fundamentalist.
> Most christians recognise that the bible isn't the infallible word of god, but has been written by human beings over a long period of time. Human beings who were subject to all the temptations and faults that people have. So any 'truths' should be taken with a grain of salt and understood through interpretation.
> When you interpret the bible, you're interpreting the word of man.
> 
> Exactly, very well said, I think some people easily forget this. Christianity doesn't teach the bible as the exact word of God written by his hand; the bible was written by humans for humans. People that were inspired by God but who are of their time and influenced by their time. The words of the Bible were mostly penned by writers who lived in close relationship to God, but nowhere do we read that they were immaculately conceived, or that they were transfigured as they wrote.
> 
> The closest books to the word of God in the bible are the gospels, as they are actual accounts of the life of jesus. Even then, they're not actually disciples of jesus, they're just people who heard about his life.
> 
> The bible should be used for inspiration, rather than as a "rule book" for 21st century lives. None of the biblical writers would have anticipated that their writings would be read, and worshipped, thousands of years later and on the other side of the earth. They wrote for a specific audience and a specific purpose.


----------



## Royals

Red October said:


> Kind of off-topic (but so is most of this thread), just a few things I'm curious about
> 
> Were you raised as a christian?
> 
> What do you think of people who were raised in other religious traditions (e.g. someone raised as a muslim in saudi arabia), who would refer to the quran as God's word?
> 
> If you had been born to islamic parents, and regularly attended a mosque as you grew up, do you think you would have become a christian still?
> 
> If a person was raised with no religious tradition, and learned about religion later in life, seeing all the different systems of belief, holy books, teachings, etc. How would that person be able to know which of them was right?
> 
> Do you ever worry that your interpretation of God's word might not be the most correct one? that there might be something you've misinterpreted or misunderstood, wether it's a minor or a major discrepancy?
> 
> I ask the last one because you seem very confident and firm in your faith, but do you think you've prepared yourself to leave that certainty behind if one day you find yourself before God, and are told you had been mistaken?
> 
> Could God forgive Satan?
> 
> Do you (or do you know any others who) ever pray from Satan to see the light and repent?
> 
> If that happened, what would that mean for the inhabitants of hell?


I was raised Christian but never really believed strongly. I made the decision to follow God much later in life.

I think it's normal that someone who grows up in a different culture might be more drawn to a different book or religion. But I also believe that for God nothing is impossible and that many people worlwide get in touch with the gospel. So where you grow up or your culture has some influence on your beliefs but not all. The other part is if the Holy Spirit convicts you. If I had been a Muslim I could have changed my beliefs sooner or later and get saved. Happens all the time. If you search you will find.

I made my choice based on the words of the prophets or God. Jesus words and lifestyle resonated with me and especially when He told us to 'love others as ourselves, and our enemies'. Also the fact that He claimed to be God's Son, Savior and Way, Truth and Life changed me. He became my rolemodel. And most of all what He did on the cross, conquering evil and resurrecting to give me eternal life convinced me. After I repented and truelly felt spiritually transformed I began to follow Him.

I can only study the Bible and intrepret what it says. Most of it is clear to understand. Some symbolical things are harder to understand but as long as I know I am saved and need to obey God's word. That's enough. And like i said the Holy Spirit leads you into all understanding so I don't worry of not understanding the Bible correctly. Also He is not the author of confusion but satan is.

I am only responsible for my words and actions so when I stand before God I can't hide. So to be honest I ask forgviness every day to be sure that even if I might done something wrong I get cleansed of unrighteousness. Because sometimes we might think we are right but could be wrong, even when done with the best intentions. But I mostly listen to God's Spirit wich convicts you of wrongdoing or motivates you to do right. So I do not have feelings of guilt or shame about what I say usually. He will let me know. And my faith is strong.

Interesting question. Salvation is only for humans. Satan is God's enemy. He is evil personified, so rotten and corrupt he is unforgiveable and doesn't seek it. He is the adversary, opposed to Him and His ways. He doesn't search forgiveness, he choices do do otherwise and rebel. He willingly chooses to be God'enemy from the beginning. He only wants to destroy and mislead as many sould as possible before his time is up. He already knows his ending, it's all planned. In revelations it says that the anti-christ, beast, and false prophet will be all thrown into the lake of fire. So imagine what it would be if God was alone, no good vs evil, only good. What that be fair to people? To those who don't want to be good? Or what if there was only evil? What would happen to those who don't want to do evil?
So it was planned from the beginning in the garden of eden. Man sinned so that human became mortal, and sin became part of the world. Free will, and choice was now part of human.


----------



## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> The whole concept of this eternal hell stuff is bs. Who in their sane mind actually believes in getting tortured forever by a kind, loving God just for merely committing some finite sins? According to the Bible, the minority of people will go to heaven, and the majority of people wont make it, but will instead spend the rest of eternity suffering Gods wrath and being scorched by everlasting hellfire. Why the hell do we humans even choose to reproduce, thus perpetuating the cycle of people going to hell for all eternity(a rather long period of time)?
> 
> It just shows how brainless many people are. I mean, come on, think about the future. If you're going to have kids, just so you can have a sense of joy and of accomplishment in this life, at least think about the fact that more likely than not, they will go to hell to burn forever and ever. Its such a stupid doctrine. I think either an eternal hell does not exist and the concept of it is based on translation errors(google "hell translation error") or God does not exist. I think what it comes down to is that people dont really think when it comes to religion, they just accept it as truth because it gives them hope and peace of mind.
> 
> And how did a thread about dating rapists turn into a theological debate? :'D


It is not God's will that anyone shall perish. God so loved the world that He.... you know the rest. It is our own will and choice to sin wich seperates us from God. The way we live. Is it God's choice we sin? No. If only we be responisble for our behavior.

You know what God wants us to do. Love others as ourselves. What a great way to live right! God just wants the best for us. Live a life of righteousness. Do good to others. Help them. Love them. What else?

You think, but the Bible states otherwise.


----------



## Were

Royals said:


> If I had been a Muslim I could have changed my beliefs sooner or later and get saved. Happens all the time. If you search you will find.


That happens very very rarely, If you were born a muslim instead of a christian, you would most likely become an islamic extremist.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Sure if you sincerely mean it. Remember the thief on the cross got saved. But again it depends on your intention and sincerity. Do you really mean it? Sinning your whole life and thinking 'oh I do everything I want and God will forgive me in the end' is different than sinning your whole life and in the end realiziing 'oh I never knew I need repentance'. Repentance is not a daily thing, it's one time life changing decision. o if you know you should know better, iif you don't you will find out.


OK, so what is Heaven and what is Hell? I mean, you always hear people talk about how one is great and the other is horrible, but there's very little in the way of specifics. How do you know that Heaven isn't just like Earth, with you living morally for eternity? And that Hell isn't just sinning for eternity?


----------



## Milco

Royals said:


> Ehh no, every normal believer knows the Bible is God's inspired/breathed word. And the word says The Holy Spirit leads you to all truth. So no risk of error there.


That is pretty much the definition of fundamentalism, and no, it's not "every normal believer" that subscribes to that. It's only a small minority, at least here in Europe.



Royals said:


> Just beause you don't believe in God doesn't mean you have to be against it. Why do atheists fight God's word so passionately if they didn't mind it?


Our societies have a history of christian values and tales, and a lot of how it's told here, I can absolutely support. But I can't support you using religion to judge yourself above others, judge others as sinners going to hell or use religion to criticise others.

Many moderate churches in Europe don't even believe in hell and dismiss it as scare-mongering - most of ours certainly does.



Royals said:


> So I should ask people's permission to speak or share what I want to say?
> Why again make the exception with religious views? Because you don't like it? I don't need anyone's permission, I have freedom speech and belief.


Try to have empathy for your fellow man.
Try to have social awareness of what is appropriate and what isn't. I have posted in the spiritual support section a couple of times, trying to support people who needed it, and I've made clear that while I'm an atheist, I know of christian leaders and bishops who view things in a way that might help them.
I don't go around bashing them with how correct I am.
You shouldn't stop preaching intolerance to people for my sake, but for theirs. It's selfish to continue ignoring how your words affect those you talk to. Being unaware is one thing, but wilfully ignoring it is surely a righteous god would approve of.



Royals said:


> I demonstrate what I say with backing it up with biblical scripture. That is why I call people who sin, sinners. Don't you agree with calling people homosexuals, criminals, murderers, drunkards, liars either? If the shoe fits wear it. And don't take it personal, you have the choice to ignore it.





Royals said:


> People can defend themselves, if anyone doesn't agree it's their right. I don't have to agree with you. So again, it's not my intention to harm anyone but only to explain and inform. If you don't agree, you can ignore it, or not speak about it.


_"And Jesus said, let the weak defend themselves! Why should I care? If they feel bad about being outcasts, they should just ignore it! Who are they to tell others what to change?"_



Royals said:


> How do the bishops in your churches preach then? Because in Christianity salvation, sin, heaven, hell and repentance are basic concepts we preach about.


What church in the Netherlands do you belong to? And what area are you from? I'm curious, because I can't think your views represent mainstream christianity in the Netherlands.
The basic principle and teaching in our church is that everybody is saved. Jesus died for our sins and everybody goes to heaven. There is no hell and you don't have to be free from sin, you don't have to be pious and you don't even have to be a believer. God's love is unconditional and all are cared for and welcomed.


----------



## Royals

Were said:


> That happens very very rarely, If you were born a muslim instead of a christian, you would most likely become an islamic extremist.


Not really. God chances a lot of Muslims these days. Seen a lot of testimonies. And because of ISIS many see their religion is not what it seems. But they have to be willing to change.


----------



## waterfairy




----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> OK, so what is Heaven and what is Hell? I mean, you always hear people talk about how one is great and the other is horrible, but there's very little in the way of specifics. How do you know that Heaven isn't just like Earth, with you living morally for eternity? And that Hell isn't just sinning for eternity?


Hell in Hebrew actually means Sheol (the grave pit, or place of skulls) and Gehenna (valley of Hinnom). Jesus describes it as follows:

"And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:50)

'Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" (Matthew 9:48)

And Revelations:

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name" (Revelation 14:11)

Not a nice place to be I think when I read that. What kind of burning? Probably burning desire. Spiritual burning because the body is gone and the spirit remains.

Heaven is also described:

"In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?" (John 14:2)

"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever" (Revelations 22:1-5)

"but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal" (Matthew 6:19-21)

"And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass" (Revelation 21:21-25)

"But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27)

"For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Corinthians 5:1)

So heaven is a place with no sin, sorrow, pain, evil, full of light and the most beautiful sights you ever can imagine.

Revlation also says there will be a new earth and a new city/kingdom in Jerusalem when Jesus returns. A new earth without evil.


----------



## Royals

nst that.That is pretty much the definition of fundamentalism, and no, it's not "every normal believer" that subscribes to that. It's only a small minority, at least here in Europe.

*Says you, but every country is different. How many Christians do you meet or talk to worldwide?*

Our societies have a history of christian values and tales, and a lot of how it's told here, I can absolutely support. But I can't support you using religion to judge yourself above others, judge others as sinners going to hell or use religion to criticise others.

Many moderate churches in Europe don't even believe in hell and dismiss it as scare-mongering - most of ours certainly does.

*Ok. Never said I was above others. Sinners is a biblical term for people who sin. And we all look at life through a different perspective. I judge things through a religious view. Sometimes critize something we don't agree with. It's normal. Constructive criticism is good. *
*
Those churches who don't believe in hell are not biblical then. I don't like to talk much about hell but it's the truth. Jesus talked more about hell than anything else.*

Try to have empathy for your fellow man.
Try to have social awareness of what is appropriate and what isn't. I have posted in the spiritual support section a couple of times, trying to support people who needed it, and I've made clear that while I'm an atheist, I know of christian leaders and bishops who view things in a way that might help them.
I don't go around bashing them with how correct I am.
You shouldn't stop preaching intolerance to people for my sake, but for theirs. It's selfish to continue ignoring how your words affect those you talk to. Being unaware is one thing, but wilfully ignoring it is surely a righteous god would approve of.

*I am loving others when I tell them the truth. I tell about God so that they know He exist and loves them. I tell about the consequences of their sin that they might realize they need to change. I only tell these things to help them. You can't blame me for sharing the gospel in a certain way. It's my own way. I do the same in the spiritual forum. Always trying to help and inform people. You are the only one complaining. I am talking normally with others about the Bible. What do you know anyway what God would approve of you don't know Him. I only listen to brothers and sisters in God for advise because they know. The Bible advises never to listen to unbelievers who don't have a worldly view.*
*
You don't seem to understand that your personal view isn't the objective truth. Just because you think I have different intention doesn't mean it's true. God knows my intentions and I am only responsible to Him. Just today a girl thanked me on youtube for sharing the gospel. So keep telling me what I do has no use.*

What church in the Netherlands do you belong to? And what area are you from? I'm curious, because I can't think your views represent mainstream christianity in the Netherlands.
The basic principle and teaching in our church is that everybody is saved. Jesus died for our sins and everybody goes to heaven. There is no hell and you don't have to be free from sin, you don't have to be pious and you don't even have to be a believer. God's love is unconditional and all are cared for and welcomed.
*
I belong to the church of God. The body of God. The church/kingdom of God is inside of us like Jesus said. 
I don't need a preacher or church to tell me what to think or do. I listen to God's word only. He knows best. Christianity here is quite low actually. About 49-54% still beliefs they claim. And people leave churches. I don't preach any different than the apostles did actually. Did you read how the preached? Look at Paul. Read the Acts of the Apostles. They were on fire. I am just really eager and on fire to tell about God. It's a sign He inspires me. I wish more people were.

It's not biblical what your church is teaching. If so tell me where in the Bible does it say those things? I can demonstrate with the Bible that certain teachings of your church are not in there.

Not everybody is saved:

**"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)
**
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 John 1:8-10)

And the existence of Hell and heaven:

"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.** Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matthew 25:45-26)

"**And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28)

"**Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal" (Matthew 6:19-21)

God's loves all His children but salvation is conditional. You have to repent and get saved to receive eternal life.

Now I understand why you believe so different ideas about what I say, because it's not in the Bible. If you want the truth and know if a church preaches truth, read the Bible and see.
A lot of churches today deceive with wrong new age teachings. Jesus warned a lot of alse prophets would come. So that's a reason I don't belong to a church.

*


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> ...Not a nice place to be I think when I read that. What kind of burning? Probably burning desire. Spiritual burning because the body is gone and the spirit remains.
> 
> ...heaven is a place with no sin, sorrow, pain, evil, full of light and the most beautiful sights you ever can imagine.
> 
> Revlation also says there will be a new earth and a new city/kingdom in Jerusalem when Jesus returns. A new earth without evil.


I just can't imagine a world without evil. Everything is a balance. Black and white, night and day, good and evil. Without one, you can't fully appreciate the other.

Which is why Christianity is so clever. Without the Devil and Hell, it's just a morals story; it's just up to God, and you have to be fearful not to upset him, like a child hiding from an abusive parent.

There's a reason children are warned about bogeymen who will punish them if they're bad (i.e. if they don't follow their parents rules). The best way to push people towards your ideal direction is to make them run away from something else.

Also, the 'worm' quote is from Mark, not Matthew.


----------



## Overdrive

RIP thread :lol


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> I just can't imagine a world without evil. Everything is a balance. Black and white, night and day, good and evil. Without one, you can't fully appreciate the other.
> 
> Which is why Christianity is so clever. Without the Devil and Hell, it's just a morals story; it's just up to God, and you have to be fearful not to upset him, like a child hiding from an abusive parent.
> 
> There's a reason children are warned about bogeymen who will punish them if they're bad (i.e. if they don't follow their parents rules). The best way to push people towards your ideal direction is to make them run away from something else.
> 
> Also, the 'worm' quote is from Mark, not Matthew.


One day the earth can't take the abuse anymore. One day a comet might hit. And the Sun will stop shining. So there has to be a judgement day or final ending to seperate the goat from the sheep. Evil can't continue forever. God has waited long enough. So I'm glad there will be a fair judgment.

So don't your parents punish you when you do wrong? It belong to normal upbringing and raising a child. Judges righteously punish criminals. Police arrests those who break the law. It's only fair we pay for our wrongdoings right? It's like karma, you will get what you give, and reap what you sowe. Parents don't discipline their kids to hurt them, but to teach them good morals. God neither. He loves us and wants the best for us. I don't believe out of fear, but because I love God. And to thank Him for His many blessings, healings and wonders. When you know you done nothing wrong you shouldn't fear. If you commit a crime you should be fearful because eventually will get caught. Feeling shame or guilt for doing wrong is only natural. If you didn't feel those emotions you would be a psychopath or sociopath. So God has given us a conscience to know wrong from right.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> One day the earth can't take the abuse anymore. One day a comet might hit. And the Sun will stop shining. So there has to be a judgement day or final ending to seperate the goat from the sheep. Evil can't continue forever. God has waited long enough. So I'm glad there will be a fair judgment.
> 
> So don't your parents punish you when you do wrong? It belong to normal upbringing and raising a child. Judges righteously punish criminals. Police arrests those who break the law. It's only fair we pay for our wrongdoings right? It's like karma, you will get what you give, and reap what you sowe. Parents don't discipline their kids to hurt them, but to teach them good morals. God neither. He loves us and wants the best for us. I don't believe out of fear, but because I love God. And to thank Him for His many blessings, healings and wonders. When you know you done nothing wrong you shouldn't fear. If you commit a crime you should be fearful because eventually will get caught. Feeling shame or guilt for doing wrong is only natural. If you didn't feel those emotions you would be a psychopath or sociopath. So God has given us a conscience to know wrong from right.


My mother sure as hell punished me when I did wrong. That's why I have SA. The question is, what is 'wrong'? To my mother, it was wrong to think for myself - she was the authority. It was wrong to question things - she was always right. It was wrong to ask for help - don't you think she has other things to do? Fix it yourself but she'll definitely let you know if you haven't done it according to *her* plan.

Does that sound familiar to you?


----------



## Carolyne

TheWelshOne said:


> My mother sure as hell punished me when I did wrong. That's why I have SA.


Yeah, between the way my parents and my church treated me when I did or said things wrong, I felt continuous shame and guilt throughout my entire childhood. I had no chance of not developing SA under those conditions, punishment only teaches you to be afraid and surrender, especially when the rules are vague and you constantly break them just by existing.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> My mother sure as hell punished me when I did wrong. That's why I have SA. The question is, what is 'wrong'? To my mother, it was wrong to think for myself - she was the authority. It was wrong to question things - she was always right. It was wrong to ask for help - don't you think she has other things to do? Fix it yourself but she'll definitely let you know if you haven't done it according to *her* plan.
> 
> Does that sound familiar to you?


Sure, there's always exceptions, or a difference between wat parents may think is morally right or not, but in general parents correct their kids out of love and to develop their conscience not to hurt them. But really, God always does do what is the best for His children.


----------



## Svarog11

15 pages and this thread is still going on lmao


----------



## Hikikomori2014

I would think all women would say no unless they like the "rough stuff"


----------



## Persephone The Dread

You ****ing sinner
You ****ing sinner
You ****ing sinner

No maker made me
(You ****ing sinner)
(You ****ing sinner)
No maker made me~ ♫


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Royals said:


> Good questions. A person can have good morals and not know but still sin. For example I can believe it's wrong to murder but still get drunk. The Bible says that we are all sinners (except babies and children not old enough to know wrong from right) without being saved and obeying God. So what it all comes down to is wether you are saved (from our sins) or not and to live according to God's commanments and obeying those. That will mean you will get to heaven. Yes you have to believe in God and Jesus because Jesus said 'he who doesn't have me doesn't have the Father'. So ofcourse you cannot be in a place where you loved one and don't like the other. In heaven everybody loves each other *and their is no envy* or hate.


Isn't God in heaven? So then what happened with that Lucifer chap?



> I am not the one to say who the exceptions are. Sure it's possible someone who lives moral goes to heaven but who knows for sure? Jesus said 'nothing is impossible for God', and 'the last shall be first'. *People can gamble to get into heaven. But how sure do you want to be?* When you get saved and obey God you know for sure you will enter heaven. Anything else, like not believing and living moral is an unsure thing because God has the final judgement. Personally I don't want to live like 'maybe this will get me into heaven we will see'. I rather decide now, repent, and obey God's commandments to be safe.


Well it's more fun than gambling with money, I have to say.



Royals said:


> Hell in Hebrew actually means Sheol (the grave pit, or place of skulls) and Gehenna (valley of Hinnom).


Place of skulls sounds amazing, I know where I'm going on holiday now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol


> While the Old Testament writings appear to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BC-70 AD) a more diverse set of ideas developed. In some texts, Sheol is considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone.[4] When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "*Hades*" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol, and this is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of the evil it represents.


Wait dude, I didn't know you were talking about my home. I don't have _many _ skulls here. OK. You can't false advertise, if I get visitors they need to know what to expect. If they come here looking for skulls they're going to be mostly disappointed.


----------



## Red October

“Did I request thee, Maker, from my clay
To mould me man? Did I solicit thee
From darkness to promote me?”
― John Milton


----------



## sad1231234

Royals said:


> It is not God's will that anyone shall perish. God so loved the world that He.... you know the rest. It is our own will and choice to sin wich seperates us from God. The way we live. Is it God's choice we sin? No. If only we be responisble for our behavior.
> 
> You know what God wants us to do. Love others as ourselves. What a great way to live right! God just wants the best for us. Live a life of righteousness. Do good to others. Help them. Love them. What else?
> 
> You think, but the Bible states otherwise.


Then why does God, in all his omniscience, almighty power and infinite benevolence, even allow for humans to reproduce, knowing that the majority of us will go to hell(as it says in the bible), and according to you, that means go to hell forever? What if someone commits a small sin in a moment of extreme anger, and they havent heard of the gospel so they never repent of that sin because it is impossible to repent for something when you have "no one" to repent to? Everyone sins. Even the kindest of people sin. But people who havent heard of the Gospel dont repent of their sins simply because they dont know the truth. I personally think its impossible to not sin. Whenever we buy something or even food, we are sinning, because that money could go to feed starving people in Africa, or better yet, the money could go to spreading the Gospel in 3rd world countries, so that they repent of their sins and avert the fate of suffering the flames of hell for all eternity. But the bible says that anyone who does not repent of their sins before death goes to hell forever, according to your perspective. But what if you viewed the bible wrong? Would we go to hell for all eternity to burn in lakes of magma thoudands of degrees in temperature simply because we perhaps read a bible passage wrong? What if you viewed the bible's passages as wrong or as more lenient than in actuality, just as you believe that universalists view the bible passages wrong when they say that the doctrine of eternal damnation and torment in hell is almost entirely based upon a mere mistranslation of the bible passage/s?

Eternall hell is ridiculous. Either the doctrine of it is based upon a mistranslation of bible verses or the bible is not divinely inspired.


----------



## Royals

Persephone The Dread said:


> Isn't God in heaven? So then what happened with that Lucifer chap?
> 
> Well it's more fun than gambling with money, I have to say.
> 
> Place of skulls sounds amazing, I know where I'm going on holiday now.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
> 
> Wait dude, I didn't know you were talking about my home. I don't have _many _ skulls here. OK. You can't false advertise, if I get visitors they need to know what to expect. If they come here looking for skulls they're going to be mostly disappointed.


You are making some sort of joke of all this. While it's very serious.

Yes, according to the story lucifer was kicked out of heaven because of pride, he wanted to be God. That is why pride is a sin.


----------



## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> Then why does God, in all his omniscience, almighty power and infinite benevolence, even allow for humans to reproduce, knowing that the majority of us will go to hell(as it says in the bible), and according to you, that means go to hell forever? What if someone commits a small sin in a moment of extreme anger, and they havent heard of the gospel so they never repent of that sin because it is impossible to repent for something when you have "no one" to repent to? Everyone sins. Even the kindest of people sin. But people who havent heard of the Gospel dont repent of their sins simply because they dont know the truth. I personally think its impossible to not sin. Whenever we buy something or even food, we are sinning, because that money could go to feed starving people in Africa, or better yet, the money could go to spreading the Gospel in 3rd world countries, so that they repent of their sins and avert the fate of suffering the flames of hell for all eternity. But the bible says that anyone who does not repent of their sins before death goes to hell forever, according to your perspective. But what if you viewed the bible wrong? Would we go to hell for all eternity to burn in lakes of magma thoudands of degrees in temperature simply because we perhaps read a bible passage wrong? What if you viewed the bible's passages as wrong or as more lenient than in actuality, just as you believe that universalists view the bible passages wrong when they say that the doctrine of eternal damnation and torment in hell is almost entirely based upon a mere mistranslation of the bible passage/s?
> 
> Eternall hell is ridiculous. Either the doctrine of it is based upon a mistranslation of bible verses or the bible is not divinely inspired.


He has given us the freedom to make babies. The person decides himself where to go based on their words and actions. If I knew my actions could get me punishment I wouldn't do them. There's certain rules in society wich help us to be careful what we say or do. To warn us to keep ourselves on the right path.

What is a small sin to you? Sin is no mistake it's worse. It's trangression of God's laws. The 10 commandments. Most people know what is wrong or right to do, but some make mistakes unknowingly.
So in that case if you don't know what you have done how could you be held responsible? Still like I said everybody has a concience. So if you sin you should feel the consequences, wether you cheat, or lie, or get drunk...You feel worse after that. Guilty, shameful or sick most of the time. So why should you keep repeating that if you know it makes you sick? That is why we learn from our mistakes.

All of us might make mistakes but it's about the intention behind it and how often you make them. A sinner is someone who continuosly, daily, sins and delights in his ways. A saved person doesn't want to sin and tries everything to resist and conquer sin. Buying things is not sin, addiction to material things, or gluttony, are sins because they go against Jesus teachings.

If I directly quote from God's word and believe it's truth, and that the Holy Spirit leads into all truth, so how can it be untrue if I quote it?

No, not understanding the Bible isn't a sin. You can always study and learn better.

It might be ridiculous to you but as spirits we live eternally without a fleshly body. We can't die so where to go?


----------



## tehuti88

How long is this thread going to go on??

It's looking like it'd be more appropriate in one of the religion subforums, since it seems to have gone WAY off topic. :|


----------



## Persephone The Dread

Royals said:


> You are making some sort of joke of all this. While it's very serious.
> 
> Yes, according to the story lucifer was kicked out of heaven because of pride, he wanted to be God. That is why pride is a sin.


Your opinions have a profoundly negative effect on people, but I know you won't listen to anything anyone has said in this thread (nor have you so far,) so yes I am joking about your ridiculous beliefs.

Pride and envy aren't synonymous. I think he was probably motivated more by envy and ambition.

'Don't try to better yourself, accept your place in life and never compare yourself to anyone (you don't want to inspire competition,) also don't question anything ever.' - the Bible.

Did you know it's implied that Satan works within boundaries God set for him, and is restricted by God? If God wanted, he could stop Satan, but I think he must get off on the competition.


----------



## truant

If God didn't want people going to Hell, why did he make sinning feel so good? That's like giving a gun to a toddler.

"Ain't ma damn fault tha kid shot hisself. I never pulled tha damn trigger."

Dick move, Jehovah.


----------



## sad1231234

Royals said:


> He has given us the freedom to make babsies. The person decides himself where to go based on their words and actions. If I knew my actions could get me punishment I wouldn't do them. There's certain rules in society wich help us to be careful what we say or do. To warn us to keep ourselves on the right path.
> 
> What is a small sin to you? Sin is no mistake it's worse. It's trangression of God's laws. The 10 commandments. Most people know what is wrong or right to do, but some make mistakes unknowingly.
> So in that case if you don't know what you have done how could you be held responsible? Still like I said everybody has a concience. So if you sin you should feel the consequences, wether you cheat, or lie, or get drunk...You feel worse after that. Guilty, shameful or sick most of the time. So why should you keep repeating that if you know it makes you sick? That is why we learn from our mistakes.
> 
> All of us might make mistakes but it's about the intention behind it and how often you make them. A sinner is someone who continuosly, daily, sins and delights in his ways. A saved person doesn't want to sin and tries everything to resist and conquer sin. Buying things is not sin, addiction to material things, or gluttony, are sins because they go against Jesus teachings.
> 
> If I directly quote from God's word and believe it's truth, and that the Holy Spirit leads into all truth, so how can it be untrue if I quote it?
> 
> No, not understanding the Bible isn't a sin. You can always study and learn better.
> 
> It might be ridiculous to you but as spirits we live eternally without a fleshly body. We can't die so where to go?
> 
> Page 29 of 30


[/QUOTE]
He has given us the freedom to create souls, souls that likelier than not, are destined to eternal torture. Maybe WE should stop sending people to hell? Maybe we should stop throwing people into a huge lake of everlasting torment by fire? And how cruel of a God to inflict onto unconsenting human souls the very possibility of suffering eternal damnation and of being at the very recieiving end of the wrath of the creator of the universe. Most of us are going to hell, "For many are called, but few are chosen". And if im right, only 144,000 people are going to heaven i think. So a miniscule handful of righteous saints get to enjoy their eternity living amongst a bunch of golden streets and temples and in the presence of an omnipotent serial torturer while the many billions of other people get toasted to a crisp for all eternity.

Certain rules in society that we live by to prevent us from committing a sin that would condemn us to eternal hell? What about society from other era's? Such as where God himself or one of his inspired messengers or something tells you that you can beat the living fk out of your slaves and still enjoy the golden streets of heaven? I guess that is a societal rule that keeps us from going to hell.

We are only human. Most of us dont even "know" that a God exists, and i bet the average person would commit a sin in say, a moment of frustration, etc. Or what if we broke one of the ten commandments by killing someone, but in an act of self defence? Sorry if it seems like im going off in a tangent, my point is, whether or not sins are black and white depends on the circumstances that it was committed. Oh, so everyone who has gotten drunk is going to hell? I didnt know that God intended to send his own son to be in hell with us lol. Jesus took alcahol in the bible. Why the hell would God create such an addicting, pleasant drink that could send so many people to be scorched into embers for all eternity?

It does depend on the intention. But its human nature to sin. Its human nature to not be loving. Its human nature to exclude people, to bully people, to envy what someone else has, etc. God so lovingly gave us these behavioural instincts and then hid himself from us, expecting us to not end up in hell.

It can be untrue if you quoted it from the Bible itself, because the scripture, even the most fundamental beliefs(whether true or not) of Christianity, are based upon translation errors. Look it up. The bible has been translated like 2 times, and God failed to get the message of his guidebook(of how not to roast in hell for eternity) through clearly.

If a lack of understanding of the bible, no matter how small, increases in some way our chances of going to hell, then id say we should forget about working, schooling, our friends, etc, and analyze every single verse of the bible to make sure we know it cover to cover. But then we'd be bound to come across the verses such as "all flesh shall see salvation" and other verses that dont support the doctrine of eternal damnation.

The answer to your last sentence is that a lucky, small handful of us will spend the rest of eternity blissfully strumming harps on clouds with the saints, cherishing the fact that we averted a horrific fate, while most of us will be gnashing our teeth in the "furnace" that was originally intended for satan himself.


----------



## Red October

How'd this God fella get to be in charge anyhow? I didn't vote for 'im 

'kingdom' of heaven? what is this, the dark ages?

surely it's high time for a constitutional republic of heaven


----------



## Royals

Persephone The Dread said:


> Your opinions have a profoundly negative effect on people, but I know you won't listen to anything anyone has said in this thread (nor have you so far,) so yes I am joking about your ridiculous beliefs.
> 
> Pride and envy aren't synonymous. I think he was probably motivated more by envy and ambition.
> 
> 'Don't try to better yourself, accept your place in life and never compare yourself to anyone (you don't want to inspire competition,) also don't question anything ever.' - the Bible.
> 
> Did you know it's implied that Satan works within boundaries God set for him, and is restricted by God? If God wanted, he could stop Satan, but I think he must get off on the competition.


If you think that than why ask me questions? I just want to help those who want answers.

God chooses for satan to have free wil also as long as time is up. Because there hhas to be a choice between good and evil.


----------



## Royals

truant said:


> If God didn't want people going to Hell, why did he make sinning feel so good? That's like giving a gun to a toddler.
> 
> "Ain't ma damn fault tha kid shot hisself. I never pulled tha damn trigger."
> 
> Dick move, Jehovah.


Satan makes it feel so good to deceive others. And the more you do it the more you destroy yourself, wich he loves. The Bible says 'sin is only pleasurable for a season'. It's doesn't give everlasting happiness and satisfaction because you have to keep repeating it. That is why Jesus said to 'drink the living water and you'll never thirst again'.


----------



## Royals

He has given us the freedom to create souls, souls that likelier than not, are destined to eternal torture. Maybe WE should stop sending people to hell? Maybe we should stop throwing people into a huge lake of everlasting torment by fire? And how cruel of a God to inflict onto unconsenting human souls the very possibility of suffering eternal damnation and of being at the very recieiving end of the wrath of the creator of the universe. Most of us are going to hell, "For many are called, but few are chosen". And if im right, only 144,000 people are going to heaven i think. So a miniscule handful of righteous saints get to enjoy their eternity living amongst a bunch of golden streets and temples and in the presence of an omnipotent serial torturer while the many billions of other people get toasted to a crisp for all eternity.

Certain rules in society that we live by to prevent us from committing a sin that would condemn us to eternal hell? What about society from other era's? Such as where God himself or one of his inspired messengers or something tells you that you can beat the living fk out of your slaves and still enjoy the golden streets of heaven? I guess that is a societal rule that keeps us from going to hell.

We are only human. Most of us dont even "know" that a God exists, and i bet the average person would commit a sin in say, a moment of frustration, etc. Or what if we broke one of the ten commandments by killing someone, but in an act of self defence? Sorry if it seems like im going off in a tangent, my point is, whether or not sins are black and white depends on the circumstances that it was committed. Oh, so everyone who has gotten drunk is going to hell? I didnt know that God intended to send his own son to be in hell with us lol. Jesus took alcahol in the bible. Why the hell would God create such an addicting, pleasant drink that could send so many people to be scorched into embers for all eternity?

It does depend on the intention. But its human nature to sin. Its human nature to not be loving. Its human nature to exclude people, to bully people, to envy what someone else has, etc. God so lovingly gave us these behavioural instincts and then hid himself from us, expecting us to not end up in hell.

It can be untrue if you quoted it from the Bible itself, because the scripture, even the most fundamental beliefs(whether true or not) of Christianity, are based upon translation errors. Look it up. The bible has been translated like 2 times, and God failed to get the message of his guidebook(of how not to roast in hell for eternity) through clearly.

If a lack of understanding of the bible, no matter how small, increases in some way our chances of going to hell, then id say we should forget about working, schooling, our friends, etc, and analyze every single verse of the bible to make sure we know it cover to cover. But then we'd be bound to come across the verses such as "all flesh shall see salvation" and other verses that dont support the doctrine of eternal damnation.

The answer to your last sentence is that a lucky, small handful of us will spend the rest of eternity blissfully strumming harps on clouds with the saints, cherishing the fact that we averted a horrific fate, while most of us will be gnashing our teeth in the "furnace" that was originally intended for satan himself.[/QUOTE]

God puts the soul into the body. The way the parents treat the child and the decisions he/she makes determine what kind of life they have. Exactly, we influence our own destiny and of others. We can avoid having a bad life by not sinning. I would rather say how cruel of satan and ourselves that we always wants to destroy us no matter what, and how righteous and loving that God gives us free choice to choose our destiny and even forgives wrong doers if they need it.

All repented saved people are going to heaven. Only the unrepented sinners go to hell biblically speaking.
You keep blaming the wrong person. God is loving and righeous, satan is evil.

Yes, again, free will and righteous judgment.

Yes, life in prison, death penalty still exist.

Different times, different customs, rules, culture. What was considered barbaric then is not now. Today still a lot of people live like the old days though.

Sin is done willfully otherwise it's not sin but a mistake. Most of us know God exists, except maybe not in the willderness somewhere. And even though we still have a consciene. Yes, we are imperfect but it's no excuse to do what you want. It's about your priorities and will. Do you try your best to overcome and resist sin or do you give in/up easily? I try to do the first.

Yes, you are right. The Bible tells us that it's allowed to defend yourself in the heat of the battle. God defends the Israelites and righteous also. But simply murdering someone is not right. Different intentions or scenario's.

No, even if you got drunk you can repent and stop it. We all probably been drunk in our college days before, but do you keep on doing it and breaking God's laws? When you are drunk your mind is in a different altered state and you can't think straight. So your mind is not on God and righteous things. That is why it's bad to get drunk. But the Bible never forbids having a drink. Jesus never got drunk. Tofay's alcohol is also not like the alcohol in that time. Today it contains much more alcohol so that you can get drunk quicker. So overindulgence is never good. Like what we call here 'coma-zuipen', drinking till you are in a coma. Now that can never be a good thing right?

I don't agree it's our nature to sin but to obey and believe in God. I believe we are spirit and body and you can choose who you serve or obey. As babies we are still pure, innocent and loving. So I don't think it's in our nature to be unloving. Sin makes you do bad things so that your mind becomes corrupted. We can also choose to be righteous and loving to others and ourselves.

It's not a bad things to discipline ourselves and take care of our body and spirit right? I like to stay healthy physically, mentally and spiritually.

Not really God's fault but of the translator. I read only the oldest Bibles to avoid many translation errors.
To most believers it's not that hard to realize what the Bible is saying. I can read heaven is a good place, and hell a bad place. I can understand Jesus conquered death at the cross and that He is Son of God. I can read God is love and if we believe in Him we receive eternal life. The most important concepts are easy to understand.

You don't know ecactly how many will go to heaven. The Bible makes it clear though that we know for sure the saved people who accepted and believe in God and Jesus go there. You can make it harder than it is but it's all very clear.


----------



## Royals

Red October said:


> How'd this God fella get to be in charge anyhow? I didn't vote for 'im
> 
> 'kingdom' of heaven? what is this, the dark ages?
> 
> surely it's high time for a constitutional republic of heaven


It was not my plan that He created Himself and all creation. So I just accept that because I can't change it. i am just pieces of dust in this universe.


----------



## millenniumman75

There was that lady at the well in the New Testament who had four husbands and was shacking up with a fifth man.

Jesus told her to go and sin no more.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> I read only the oldest Bibles to avoid many translation errors.


Do you read Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic? That's kind of impressive.


----------



## sad1231234

Royals said:


> God puts the soul into the body. The way the parents treat the child and the decisions he/she makes determine what kind of life they have. Exactly, we influence our own destiny and of others. We can avoid having a bad life by not sinning. I would rather say how cruel of satan and ourselves that we always wants to destroy us no matter what, and how righteous and loving that God gives us free choice to choose our destiny and even forgives wrong doers if they need it.
> 
> All repented saved people are going to heaven. Only the unrepented sinners go to hell biblically speaking.
> You keep blaming the wrong person. God is loving and righeous, satan is evil.
> 
> Yes, again, free will and righteous judgment.
> 
> Yes, life in prison, death penalty still exist.
> 
> Different times, different customs, rules, culture. What was considered barbaric then is not now. Today still a lot of people live like the old days though.
> 
> Sin is done willfully otherwise it's not sin but a mistake. Most of us know God exists, except maybe not in the willderness somewhere. And even though we still have a consciene. Yes, we are imperfect but it's no excuse to do what you want. It's about your priorities and will. Do you try your best to overcome and resist sin or do you give in/up easily? I try to do the first.
> 
> Yes, you are right. The Bible tells us that it's allowed to defend yourself in the heat of the battle. God defends the Israelites and righteous also. But simply murdering someone is not right. Different intentions or scenario's.
> 
> No, even if you got drunk you can repent and stop it. We all probably been drunk in our college days before, but do you keep on doing it and breaking God's laws? When you are drunk your mind is in a different altered state and you can't think straight. So your mind is not on God and righteous things. That is why it's bad to get drunk. But the Bible never forbids having a drink. Jesus never got drunk. Tofay's alcohol is also not like the alcohol in that time. Today it contains much more alcohol so that you can get drunk quicker. So overindulgence is never good. Like what we call here 'coma-zuipen', drinking till you are in a coma. Now that can never be a good thing right?
> 
> I don't agree it's our nature to sin but to obey and believe in God. I believe we are spirit and body and you can choose who you serve or obey. As babies we are still pure, innocent and loving. So I don't think it's in our nature to be unloving. Sin makes you do bad things so that your mind becomes corrupted. We can also choose to be righteous and loving to others and ourselves.
> 
> It's not a bad things to discipline ourselves and take care of our body and spirit right? I like to stay healthy physically, mentally and spiritually.
> 
> Not really God's fault but of the translator. I read only the oldest Bibles to avoid many translation errors.
> To most believers it's not that hard to realize what the Bible is saying. I can read heaven is a good place, and hell a bad place. I can understand Jesus conquered death at the cross and that He is Son of God. I can read God is love and if we believe in Him we receive eternal life. The most important concepts are easy to understand.
> 
> You don't know ecactly how many will go to heaven. The Bible makes it clear though that we know for sure the saved people who accepted and believe in God and Jesus go there. You can make it harder than it is but it's all very clear.


Oh so we have the power to influence to some extent the fate of another soul, that fate being either heaven forever or hell forever. I think that you know inside that it would obviously be more righteous of a God to not condemn anyone to eternal torment. I think Christians just try to justify the harsh "truth" that they see in bible passages. I believe that if there is a God, he wouldnt throw people in hell forever, that is stupid and i believe you can logically show that it is at the last, seemingly, stupid.

Im not blaming the wrong person. God created the whole human race knowing that most of them would suffer forever. Why didnt he, with his capability to foresee the future, decide that to create a whole group of souls just so that some of them would go to heaven while others to hell was not worth it, since the enjoyments of a few people in heaven wouldnt(i think we can agree with this word) be worth the suffering of many people in hellfire?

We're not talking about life in prison, we are talking about an eternity in hell. Have you ever burnt yourself? Imagine that pain being multiplied to whatever degree the creator of the universe desires and imagine roasting in that pain for 1000 years. Multiply that 1000 years by another 1000 years. Or even by a million years. Then another billion. Then multiply it by a trillion and add an exponential, to the power of a million billion trillion googleplex. That wouldnt be a 0.00000000000001 of a 0.000000000001 of eternity. In fact, another infinite of those years to go. My point is, justifying the eternal punishment of someone by their finite sins by comparing it to the modern day legal system(set up by guess who, NOT God) is flawed logic.

Whether or not sin is done willfully depends on the definition of sin. If you say physically hurting someone for no reason is sin, then it is obviously willfully. If you say getting drunk is a sin, then i think it is fair to say that it is not a willfully committed sin because obviously not everyone knows its a sin and some Christians even, may justify drinking, using certain verses from the bible such as, say, the ones where Jesus drinks alcahol. Because getting drunk is not necessarily harming anyone, i think its fair to say that its unclear whether it is known by non-christians(and the like) as a sin, let alone a sin that can send you to hell(forever and ever). I try to avoid doing sins that are completely immoral or sins that cause harm/hurt to others. But if i believed in an eternal hell, i sure as hell would be doing the first just like you lol. But i dont believe in an eternal hell, so if ever i do sin, i believe i wont suffer for eternity because i accept it as a mistake. No sane God would throw you in hell forever for that. I sure hope no same human would if they were in God's place. So just think how much more merciful God would be. The bible says that God is love, and i dont believe love would torture someone for all eternity.

Theres a lot of other nasty stuff that the bible says you can do in(or after) the heat of battle.

Yeah you can repent when you are drunk, but just hope you repent before you accidentally fall onto a spike or something lol. If im right you have to repent before death or something. Its awfully selfish of Jesus to drink, because, according to the law of probability and statistics, its bound that at least a few people will misunderstand those verses and think that those verses allow getting drunk. So basically, for a bit of alcahol in his finite amount of time on this earth, people will go to hell forever. But Jesus wants for no one to suffer hell, so he should have been a better example. But maybe he wants us to go to hell forever. After all, he said even said in a verse that he doesnt want people to completely know the truth, lest they repent and avert - according to your belief - the fate of an eternal hell.

Human nature in general has been proven, as we all know, to be selfish.

The King James Version, which is the most accurate English translation of the Bible, literally mistranslates the word "eternity". Apparently the original greek word that translates to "eternity" can mean either an indefinite period of time(though often of long lengths), or possibly in some cases it can mean an eternal duration of time. But there are bible verses that use the same word "eternity" to state the duration of finite periods of time, so obviously something has been misunderstood.

The bible does not make it clear because there are some verses in the bible such as "all flesh shall see salvation", which would confuse many readers. And nowhere in the bible does it state any actual "sin" that sends you to hell, except murder. It doesnt mention eternal hell for getting drunk either, perhapd it should be a little more clear? And how on Earth did God get a bunch of chosen people to write his bible and state all his rules and just so happen to get translation errors on the very most important verses in the bible?

If i were you i would struggle, despite having SA, to spread the Gospel to all corners of the earth, because chances are, you might happen to save a soul or two from eternal damnation lol. After all, the Gospel is God's gift to people to spread so that they can help others avert going to hell where they will suffer scorching hellfire until no end.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> Do you read Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic? That's kind of impressive.


I translate the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic word for word if I have to. I read interliner Bibles. That is the way you learn languages. So small chance of error.


----------



## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> Oh so we have the power to influence to some extent the fate of another soul, that fate being either heaven forever or hell forever. I think that you know inside that it would obviously be more righteous of a God to not condemn anyone to eternal torment. I think Christians just try to justify the harsh "truth" that they see in bible passages. I believe that if there is a God, he wouldnt throw people in hell forever, that is stupid and i believe you can logically show that it is at the last, seemingly, stupid.
> 
> Im not blaming the wrong person. God created the whole human race knowing that most of them would suffer forever. Why didnt he, with his capability to foresee the future, decide that to create a whole group of souls just so that some of them would go to heaven while others to hell was not worth it, since the enjoyments of a few people in heaven wouldnt(i think we can agree with this word) be worth the suffering of many people in hellfire?
> 
> We're not talking about life in prison, we are talking about an eternity in hell. Have you ever burnt yourself? Imagine that pain being multiplied to whatever degree the creator of the universe desires and imagine roasting in that pain for 1000 years. Multiply that 1000 years by another 1000 years. Or even by a million years. Then another billion. Then multiply it by a trillion and add an exponential, to the power of a million billion trillion googleplex. That wouldnt be a 0.00000000000001 of a 0.000000000001 of eternity. In fact, another infinite of those years to go. My point is, justifying the eternal punishment of someone by their finite sins by comparing it to the modern day legal system(set up by guess who, NOT God) is flawed logic.
> 
> Whether or not sin is done willfully depends on the definition of sin. If you say physically hurting someone for no reason is sin, then it is obviously willfully. If you say getting drunk is a sin, then i think it is fair to say that it is not a willfully committed sin because obviously not everyone knows its a sin and some Christians even, may justify drinking, using certain verses from the bible such as, say, the ones where Jesus drinks alcahol. Because getting drunk is not necessarily harming anyone, i think its fair to say that its unclear whether it is known by non-christians(and the like) as a sin, let alone a sin that can send you to hell(forever and ever). I try to avoid doing sins that are completely immoral or sins that cause harm/hurt to others. But if i believed in an eternal hell, i sure as hell would be doing the first just like you lol. But i dont believe in an eternal hell, so if ever i do sin, i believe i wont suffer for eternity because i accept it as a mistake. No sane God would throw you in hell forever for that. I sure hope no same human would if they were in God's place. So just think how much more merciful God would be. The bible says that God is love, and i dont believe love would torture someone for all eternity.
> 
> Theres a lot of other nasty stuff that the bible says you can do in(or after) the heat of battle.
> 
> Yeah you can repent when you are drunk, but just hope you repent before you accidentally fall onto a spike or something lol. If im right you have to repent before death or something. Its awfully selfish of Jesus to drink, because, according to the law of probability and statistics, its bound that at least a few people will misunderstand those verses and think that those verses allow getting drunk. So basically, for a bit of alcahol in his finite amount of time on this earth, people will go to hell forever. But Jesus wants for no one to suffer hell, so he should have been a better example. But maybe he wants us to go to hell forever. After all, he said even said in a verse that he doesnt want people to completely know the truth, lest they repent and avert - according to your belief - the fate of an eternal hell.
> 
> Human nature in general has been proven, as we all know, to be selfish.
> 
> The King James Version, which is the most accurate English translation of the Bible, literally mistranslates the word "eternity". Apparently the original greek word that translates to "eternity" can mean either an indefinite period of time(though often of long lengths), or possibly in some cases it can mean an eternal duration of time. But there are bible verses that use the same word "eternity" to state the duration of finite periods of time, so obviously something has been misunderstood.
> 
> The bible does not make it clear because there are some verses in the bible such as "all flesh shall see salvation", which would confuse many readers. And nowhere in the bible does it state any actual "sin" that sends you to hell, except murder. It doesnt mention eternal hell for getting drunk either, perhapd it should be a little more clear? And how on Earth did God get a bunch of chosen people to write his bible and state all his rules and just so happen to get translation errors on the very most important verses in the bible?
> 
> If i were you i would struggle, despite having SA, to spread the Gospel to all corners of the earth, because chances are, you might happen to save a soul or two from eternal damnation lol. After all, the Gospel is God's gift to people to spread so that they can help others avert going to hell where they will suffer scorching hellfire until no end.


Ofcourse why do people evangelize or preach? We can lead people to God. It's a noble thing to do and not to lead them away from God. That's a serious crime. Because they cheer in heaven over every saved soul. Why is it stupid? You still don't accept righteous judments/punishment?
Imagine how many sould Hitler has killed. Maybe responisble for at least 10 million deaths, 40 max. that means he has to pay for 40 million years so that might be forever. Don't murderers often get life imprisonment? Do you disagree with that also? So what's not fair about that? Do the crime do the time.

Just because God has foreknowledge what could happen doesn't mean we know or could take another direction. In heaven there is no misery or sin so you be closed off from all of it. To be fair it's your own fault if you end up in hell. Nobody forces you. So God only gives you what you want. Nobody wants to be in heaven if they feel they don't belong. And vice versa. Hitler and Stalin deserve to be in hell, Martin Luther King and apostle Paul don't.

Well a life in prison is like hell right? Some people say hell is on earth. On earth you have a way to escape the body. But what are you going to do when you have a soul? Can't escape the universe. So ofcourse you go where you feel at home. Just like on earth, the sinners hang with the sinners, the saints with the saints. Yes, imagine, that is enough for me to stay away from that place. I don't want to go to hell, in no way, so I make sure I trust God and follow Him every day. I also assume in the universe time doesn't exist like on earth, different laws. In the afterlife without a body I think you won't even notice eternity anymore, you just are aware of the present. Ofcourse on earth we are mortal, we reach a certain age, in the afterlife life is eternal and we don't die anymore so I was just given an example of how we also would be locked up forever if we lived eternally on earth. You can get hundreds time life sentence on earth so if you spend 90 years in jail you will serve the rest in the afterlife. But it will be forever since you will live eternal and because human should know better not to do wrong and doom themselves.

You can judge if something is a sin by the effects or consequences it brings forth. Do you feel good after drunkeness? Is it healthy for your body? Does it cause violence or accidents? It causes people a lot of harm. So I think people know they shouldn't get drunk but only do it because it gives temporary pleasure. It's escapism. They have a choice either not to drink or to drink. So, now you know it's wrong from a Bliblical point of view.
All sin harms yourself or others. Stealing, murder, lust, drunkeness, jealousy, greed... 
If you don't realize this you will keep on sinning. Sinning is selfish. Also to agree with sin. Instead of saying 'go on drink some more', you should say 'be aware of the effect of alcohol, you had enough'. If I knew it hurts myself or others I would stop it. We have to be responsible for others and ourselves. That is what loving others as ourselves is about. Not doing so is just plain foolish. Sinners keep justifying their sin and act like they don't know better. Sure, they do. They just ignore God's word because sin feels so good and they don't want to be responsible to God.

Yes, so just in case don't get drunk at all. Because you can die any day. So take precautions. It's a mistake you can never make right once you die in an unrepented sinful state. Only if you're illleterate or can't see or understand God's word it's easy to misintepret God's word. Anyone should knowwine back then isn't the same as today. And Jesus didn't get drunk. SO again, take precautions, if you're not sure about something become sure and don't commit sin. And not be like 'I can't hear you God! I just do what I want no matter the consequences. I pretend I don't hear. I don't care'. That's a destructive way to live. We shouldn't only do what feels good but what is healthy to us.

Jesus is sinless and Son of God the best example how to be. Can you be a better example? I can't.

I agree, most humans are selfish (to sin).

I don't read the King James, I only read the Dead Sea Scrolls, Septuagint, the Diatessaron, the Tanakh,
the Pes hitta and other oldest trusted Bibles. Just because you can't accept eternity doesn't mean it isn't true.


----------



## Royals

If you don't understand something just ask. Read the Bible better because Jesus continously tells what can
lead to hell. Even calling someone 'you fool' can be in danger of hell He said. Paul also said enough of the people
who are sinners, among homosexuals and drunkards. You just don't (want to) understand, it's very clear to me
and many others.

Humans created translation errors not God. Often Jesus said His disciples didn't understand Him. Who's fault
is that? He who has eyes to see let him see, and who has ears to hear let him hear.

Funny man 

It seems you know everything very well biblically and about sin but you don't live it out yet.


----------



## Milco

Royals said:


> I translate the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic word for word if I have to. I read interliner Bibles. That is the way you learn languages. So small chance of error.


Definitely no chance of error reading a text in a language you're unfamiliar with.
Especially not when the angels tell you your interpretation is perfect and without any faults, and all established churches and translations are fake, misleading and the work of the devil.


----------



## TheWelshOne

@Royals let's be honest, Hitler killed a lot of gays, gypsies and non-believers. Which may include the Jews if you're Christian, I'm not sure. So for all we know he's up in Heaven high-fiving God for ridding the world of millions of problems. Y'know, like God did in the Bible. What if Hitler was working on God's orders, God just found a more streamlined way of killing dissenters, rather than flooding the world again?


----------



## sad1231234

Royals said:


> Ofcourse why do people evangelize or preach? We can lead people to God. It's a noble thing to do and not to lead them away from God. That's a serious crime. Because they cheer in heaven over every saved soul. Why is it stupid? You still don't accept righteous judments/punishment?
> Imagine how many sould Hitler has killed. Maybe responisble for at least 10 million deaths, 40 max. that means he has to pay for 40 million years so that might be forever. Don't murderers often get life imprisonment? Do you disagree with that also? So what's not fair about that? Do the crime do the time.
> 
> Just because God has foreknowledge what could happen doesn't mean we know or could take another direction. In heaven there is no misery or sin so you be closed off from all of it. To be fair it's your own fault if you end up in hell. Nobody forces you. So God only gives you what you want. Nobody wants to be in heaven if they feel they don't belong. And vice versa. Hitler and Stalin deserve to be in hell, Martin Luther King and apostle Paul don't.
> 
> Well a life in prison is like hell right? Some people say hell is on earth. On earth you have a way to escape the body. But what are you going to do when you have a soul? Can't escape the universe. So ofcourse you go where you feel at home. Just like on earth, the sinners hang with the sinners, the saints with the saints. Yes, imagine, that is enough for me to stay away from that place. I don't want to go to hell, in no way, so I make sure I trust God and follow Him every day. I also assume in the universe time doesn't exist like on earth, different laws. In the afterlife without a body I think you won't even notice eternity anymore, you just are aware of the present. Ofcourse on earth we are mortal, we reach a certain age, in the afterlife life is eternal and we don't die anymore so I was just given an example of how we also would be locked up forever if we lived eternally on earth. You can get hundreds time life sentence on earth so if you spend 90 years in jail you will serve the rest in the afterlife. But it will be forever since you will live eternal and because human should know better not to do wrong and doom themselves.
> 
> You can judge if something is a sin by the effects or consequences it brings forth. Do you feel good after drunkeness? Is it healthy for your body? Does it cause violence or accidents? It causes people a lot of harm. So I think people know they shouldn't get drunk but only do it because it gives temporary pleasure. It's escapism. They have a choice either not to drink or to drink. So, now you know it's wrong from a Bliblical point of view.
> All sin harms yourself or others. Stealing, murder, lust, drunkeness, jealousy, greed...
> If you don't realize this you will keep on sinning. Sinning is selfish. Also to agree with sin. Instead of saying 'go on drink some more', you should say 'be aware of the effect of alcohol, you had enough'. If I knew it hurts myself or others I would stop it. We have to be responsible for others and ourselves. That is what loving others as ourselves is about. Not doing so is just plain foolish. Sinners keep justifying their sin and act like they don't know better. Sure, they do. They just ignore God's word because sin feels so good and they don't want to be responsible to God.
> 
> Yes, so just in case don't get drunk at all. Because you can die any day. So take precautions. It's a mistake you can never make right once you die in an unrepented sinful state. Only if you're illleterate or can't see or understand God's word it's easy to misintepret God's word. Anyone should knowwine back then isn't the same as today. And Jesus didn't get drunk. SO again, take precautions, if you're not sure about something become sure and don't commit sin. And not be like 'I can't hear you God! I just do what I want no matter the consequences. I pretend I don't hear. I don't care'. That's a destructive way to live. We shouldn't only do what feels good but what is healthy to us.
> 
> Jesus is sinless and Son of God the best example how to be. Can you be a better example? I can't.
> 
> I agree, most humans are selfish (to sin).
> 
> I don't read the King James, I only read the Dead Sea Scrolls, Septuagint, the Diatessaron, the Tanakh,
> the Pes hitta and other oldest trusted Bibles. Just because you can't accept eternity doesn't mean it isn't true.


Then lets all get out there and save some souls, we would be bound to save many from eternal damnation if we would. But we are too selfish. Thats another reason i believe that if God exists, he wouldnt throw anyone in hell forever. This doctrine simply defies logic. You can judtify it all you want, to feel at peace and at ease, but its obvious that this doctrine seems ridiculous. Of course i accept righteous punishment, but we are talking about whether or not it is righteous punishment. To state hell(eternal) for finite sins as a righteous punishment is an invalid argument. Do the crime do the time? Time is not relevant on the scale of eternity. Like i already said, you cant say that this is the same as jail. People go to jail for theft, murder, etc. But people go to Gods inferno just for getting drunk for the pleasurable effects. But i guess thats the consequence of violating the holy temple of the body with such an evil thing as alcahol. Im still confused about your belief in hell, whether it is eternal or relative to the sins that people do, but if you believe that the time you spend in hell is according to the sins you did, then to equate 40 million years with eternity shows that you are thinking from a limited perspective and thinking in the short run.

Yes but if God loves his children, so foreseeing that some of us will make wrong choices and end up in hell, when he said that he wants no one to go to hell, why does he create people, knowing they will go to hell, when he cares about them? We're not talking about hitler or stalin, i think its fair to say that anyone would want to see hitler or stalin in hell, but we are talking about going to hell for drinking some alcahol, and not knowing the truth because Jesus drank alcahol. No misery or sin in heaven? Then why didnt God make it like that originally. He could have simply filtered out sin from our very consciousness, as he will in heaven. But he allowed sin, and its consequences, eternal damnation in hellfire, to exist, just because two ignorant people ate a ****ing fruit. I sure hope theres no misery in heaven, because can you imagine the guilt those first two people would feel for first introducing the possibility of going to hell forever?

On Earth we are given finite punishments because we live finite lives and comit finite sins. Can you imagine going to the afterlife only to find out that youll be locked up "forever"(lol) just because, for example, that cookie you stole from someone as a kid when you got mad, and now you are in hell forever and you cant see your loved ones, and they cant see youm yet somehow they are blissfully enjoying life without you, because God takes away their very feelings of concern for your wellbeing. Because you said in heaven no one is miserable, but unless God defies logic, that statement is contradictory. By the way, time in the universe is not non-existent, but existent and relative to space and warped by gravity.

You are right, you can judge if something is good by how it feels. When someone gets drunk(in moderation), they feel great. When i have to go to church(to ensure that my fate is a one way ticket to heaven, not hell), i get socially anxious. In other words, if i had to go to church, preach, save souls etc, i would not feel good, due to social anxiety. Is that sinning? Jealousy and greed are strong emotions. Would you got angry if you saw someone killed in front of you? Anger is an emotion. So are jealousy and greed. Though negative emotions, someone does not automatically become a hell-destined sinner just because they automatically(due to bodily instincts and chemicals) feel jealous/envious. But if they act on that emotion in a negative way, i guess you can say that they are sinning.

Sinners clearly usually know that they are sinning. I believe that the point is not of whether or not we sin, but whether or not God throws us in his furnace forever because of it or not. I think sin is pretty much unavoidable. We may not want to go around stealing from random people, but we are sinning by not helping the poor people, when comparatively we have so much money. We sin whenever we entertain a bad thought at all. No one is perfect.

You are struggling to avoid what i am saying lol. Why would all perfect, all loving Jesus take the temptation to drink alcahol, knowing that according to the law of probability, some people would take it as an OK to get drunk. I sure as hell tell you that i believe that verse means that its okay to get drunk, or at least to participe in drinking alcahol, a roulette where the prize is a bit of pleasure and the stakes are eternal damnation, by the loving God that created you, and alcahol. But you are ignoring the obvious flaws in your doctrine and sweeping my very valid and convincing argument under the carpet.

To summarise the latter paragraph, in case you dont bother reading it, because Jesus drank alcahol, some people will think its okay to get drunk and they will go to hell forever. Is that an enormous flaw in your doctrine or what?

The argument for such a dogmatic doctrine as the existence of an eternal hell is invalid, biased nonsense that seems to contradict logic.


----------



## sad1231234

Royals said:


> If you don't understand something just ask. Read the Bible better because Jesus continously tells what can
> lead to hell. Even calling someone 'you fool' can be in danger of hell He said. Paul also said enough of the people
> who are sinners, among homosexuals and drunkards. You just don't (want to) understand, it's very clear to me
> and many others.
> 
> Humans created translation errors not God. Often Jesus said His disciples didn't understand Him. Who's fault
> is that? He who has eyes to see let him see, and who has ears to hear let him hear.
> 
> Funny man
> 
> It seems you know everything very well biblically and about sin but you don't live it out yet.


What about those too poor to afford a bible? Im pretty sure everyone has called someone a fool before, not excluding Jesus. Homosexuality is not even a choice, people cant choose if they turn gay or not. Its the result of chemical and psychological changes in the brain and hormones due to different factors and circumstances, it is not a sin.


----------



## TheWelshOne

sad1231234 said:


> What about those too poor to afford a bible? Im pretty sure everyone has called someone a fool before, not excluding Jesus. Homosexuality is not even a choice, people cant choose if they turn gay or not. Its the result of chemical and psychological changes in the brain and hormones due to different factors and circumstances, it is not a sin.


No no, we've been through this already. It's not *being* gay that's the sin, it's acting on it. Of course you're still subject to the same lustful thoughts and masturbation sins, and you're obviously not allowed to have a relationship with anyone or sleep with them, or fall in love at all.

You can totally be gay. Just in an asexual, aromantic way.


----------



## Royals

Milco said:


> Definitely no chance of error reading a text in a language you're unfamiliar with.
> Especially not when the angels tell you your interpretation is perfect and without any faults, and all established churches and translations are fake, misleading and the work of the devil.


Not when I read many translations (in different languages) wich say the same, compare them all, and translate words myself. The Holy Spirit leads you into all understanding not angels.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> @*Royals* let's be honest, Hitler killed a lot of gays, gypsies and non-believers. Which may include the Jews if you're Christian, I'm not sure. So for all we know he's up in Heaven high-fiving God for ridding the world of millions of problems. Y'know, like God did in the Bible. What if Hitler was working on God's orders, God just found a more streamlined way of killing dissenters, rather than flooding the world again?


C'mon man. It's not God's will 6 million of His own people get exterminated. And also not that you shall murder. God gives life and sin leads to death. Hitler was doing satan's work.


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## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> C'mon man. It's not God's will 6 million of His own people get exterminated. And also not that you shall murder. God gives life and sin leads to death. Hitler was doing satan's work.


So where was God? How can you justify those deaths, unless its because they were sinners? Children die every day, what sort of God allows that to happen and why? The only explanation I can see is that God's either given up caring, or he's running everything and isn't as benevolent as you believe he is.


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## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> What about those too poor to afford a bible? Im pretty sure everyone has called someone a fool before, not excluding Jesus. Homosexuality is not even a choice, people cant choose if they turn gay or not. Its the result of chemical and psychological changes in the brain and hormones due to different factors and circumstances, it is not a sin.


Well I know a lot of scripture from my head. Also Bibles cost nothing. Evangelists give ot free Bibles constantly. And God's word is written on your heart, and you have a relationship with Him through the Holy Spirit so you will get anough of whatever you need. Opinions differ wether it is a free choice or birth defect or not. You have to believe God creates homosexual people who most likely will sin and turn their backs on Him. Or you only believe in one man and woman who reunite and become one. Jesus does say that. He never says two men come together. The natural way is a husband and wife.


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## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> So where was God? How can you justify those deaths, unless its because they were sinners? Children die every day, what sort of God allows that to happen and why? The only explanation I can see is that God's either given up caring, or he's running everything and isn't as benevolent as you believe he is.


People don't understand that God can give comfort and strength in hard times. And that He is by our side even though we is suffering. So He suffers with us. Jesus said it's unavoidable we have to suffer. That's a consequence of sin. People have to suffer because of the sins of others who cause it. So in this case the nazi's were the sinners. Death is consequence of bad use of free will. Understand that God believes free will is the most important thing He caould give us. Without it we would be willingless slaves. Would you want to be that? So God chose that system.

So it's either being free and the consequences of sin, or being willingless slaves who are not able to choose but only obey. 
Who you want to love someone by force? Or by choice? God doesn't want us to believe in Him because He wants it. But because we choose to do so. So you can't blame God for giving us the freedom of choice. It's the bet thing we have.

I know I would chose to be free. Becuase every bad person will have to pay for his sins sooner or later. In this life or after.


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## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> People don't understand that God can give comfort and strength in hard times. And that He is by our side even though we is suffering. So He suffers with us. Jesus said it's unavoidable we have to suffer. That's a consequence of sin. People have to suffer because of the sins of others who cause it. So in this case the nazi's were the sinners. Death is consequence of bad use of free will. Understand that God believes free will is the most important thing He caould give us. Without it we would be willingless slaves. Would you want to be that? So God chose that system.
> 
> So it's either being free and the consequences of sin, or being willingless slaves who are not able to choose but only obey.
> Who you want to love someone by force? Or by choice? God doesn't want us to believe in Him because He wants it. But because we choose to do so. So you can't blame God for giving us the freedom of choice. It's the bet thing we have.
> 
> I know I would chose to be free. Becuase every bad person will have to pay for his sins sooner or later. In this life or after.


I'm sorry, I really don't get it. Before I was born, my mother had two children; one was stillborn, the other survived for a day. God took them both, for what reason? Children are miracles, and He devastated my mother twice. Why? Was she honestly such a sinner that she deserved that? There was no other 'free will' there. She was married, she had a house, she had a job, she was a Christian. Explain to me why the death of her two dearly-wanted children was a 'consequence of bad use of free will'.

And it's not really a choice, is it? 'Believe in me, or you'll suffer eternal torment'. At least if He didn't give you free will, you'd have a lot less to worry about because you wouldn't be thinking about sin every second of the day.


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## truant

The more I learn about Christianity, the more I get this image when I think about the Christian God:










For he so loved the world that he consigned most of humanity to burn in hell forever.

To say that the Devil makes sin so much fun that most people can't resist sinning and not God accomplishes nothing. It's just passing the buck. God could stop Satan if he wanted to, right? Everything that happens happens on God's watch. Which means he's ultimately responsible for all the evil and pain that humanity experiences. Either humans do have free will, which means the only consequences for their actions are the human consequences, without eternal damnation lurking in the background, or there is no true free will, just an obligation to live mechanically, in constant terror of making a mistake.

No wonder the proselytizers are so desperate to convert others. How else are they going to convince their terrible god that they should be spared his 'merciful justice'? What a nightmare being a Christian would be. Makes SA look like a case of the hiccups.


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## Paper Samurai

truant said:


> To say that the Devil makes sin so much fun that most people can't resist sinning and not God accomplishes nothing. It's just passing the buck. God could stop Satan if he wanted to, right? Everything that happens happens on God's watch. Which means he's ultimately responsible for all the evil and pain that humanity experiences. Either humans do have free will, which means the only consequences for their actions are the human consequences, without eternal damnation lurking in the background, or there is no true free will, just an obligation to live mechanically, in constant terror of making a mistake.


 It gets better in that not only did this god create a system where failure means eternal damnation (+ the concept of individuals having the ability to fail) but he's also "all knowing" and can tell ahead of time what we're up to/going to do.

He knows some of us will fail his horribly designed system and does nothing... unless of course you subscribe to the idea that he has a "plan for everyone". You know, that cheesy phrase that some people say from time to time; "don't worry, this is all in god's plans" - in that case this god has decided (and sets in motion) some people's destiny is to fail and to be victims of the thing he created.

In some way he is an immoral/malicious being and it's a question of how rather than if.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> I'm sorry, I really don't get it. Before I was born, my mother had two children; one was stillborn, the other survived for a day. God took them both, for what reason? Children are miracles, and He devastated my mother twice. Why? Was she honestly such a sinner that she deserved that? There was no other 'free will' there. She was married, she had a house, she had a job, she was a Christian. Explain to me why the death of her two dearly-wanted children was a 'consequence of bad use of free will'.
> 
> And it's not really a choice, is it? 'Believe in me, or you'll suffer eternal torment'. At least if He didn't give you free will, you'd have a lot less to worry about because you wouldn't be thinking about sin every second of the day.


Some things we might not yet understand like death of babies. I guess it's part of mistakes of humans or doctors, or whatever, from living in an imperfect sinful world. All babies will go to heaven though and won't miss earth.

It's a choice to sin or not. When you have two choices choose the best one. We always have to choice. It's good that we have a conscience and free will to remind us of the severity of our bad actions.


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## Red eyed Xaxa

No, that is just disgusting.


----------



## ljubo

truant said:


> The more I learn about Christianity, the more I get this image when I think about the Christian God:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For he so loved the world that he consigned most of humanity to burn in hell forever.
> 
> To say that the Devil makes sin so much fun that most people can't resist sinning and not God accomplishes nothing. It's just passing the buck. God could stop Satan if he wanted to, right? Everything that happens happens on God's watch. Which means he's ultimately responsible for all the evil and pain that humanity experiences. Either humans do have free will, which means the only consequences for their actions are the human consequences, without eternal damnation lurking in the background, or there is no true free will, just an obligation to live mechanically, in constant terror of making a mistake.
> 
> No wonder the proselytizers are so desperate to convert others. How else are they going to convince their terrible god that they should be spared his 'merciful justice'? What a nightmare being a Christian would be. Makes SA look like a case of the hiccups.


Allah is like Gandalf not Sauron.


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## caveman8

ljubo said:


> Allah is like Gandalf not Sauron.


Yet, almost every day these things happen in the name of Islam. Slow week:

Other Recent
"Misunderstandings 
of Islam"
2016.11.06 (Iraq) 
A suicide bomber in an ambulance massacres over a dozen innocents.
2016.11.04 (Pakistan) 
An imam is shot in the head by Religion of Peace rivals while feeding pigeons at a market.
2016.11.04 (Iraq) 
Women and children trying to flee the caliphate are exterminated by a bomb planted on their bus.
2016.11.04 (Afghanistan) 
A Taliban bomb claims the life of a local journalist.
2016.11.04 (Jordan) 
Three Americans are shot to death in their car by suspected Islamists.
2016.11.03 (Afghanistan) 
Eleven civilians on their way to a wedding are disintegrated by a Taliban bomb.


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## sad1231234

Royals said:


> C'mon man. It's not God's will 6 million of His own people get exterminated. And also not that you shall murder. God gives life and sin leads to death. Hitler was doing satan's work.


I was waiting for you to say something like this. Why would Satan lead Hitler to kill 6 million people, when satan could have tried to get them to sin instead? Why would Satan kill many people, when he could have sent less people, but nevertheless, sent people, to hell by tempting them to sin? After all, we know that the majority(or at least a lot) of people sin, destining themselves to eternal torment in hell. Wouldnt it be exponentially far more in satan's interests to try to get at least some of those people in hell forever, rather then kill them? Because obviously, i think we can say that its undeniable that Satan would want to send at least one soul to hell for eternity, rather than kill 6 million souls, because all their suffering, even once added up together, is finite compared to one person suffering forever and ever.

Explain away that


----------



## VanitysFiend

Royals said:


> C'mon man. It's not God's will 6 million of His own people get exterminated. And also not that you shall murder. God gives life and sin leads to death. Hitler was doing satan's work.


Where to u think those dead Jews went after the died? There's a difference between murder a killing, most civs frown on murder, but killing, killing's a whole different kettle of fish...


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## Persephone The Dread

ljubo said:


> *Allah is like Gandalf* not Sauron.


I have never been more insulted in my life. This is a great offence to wizardkind.

Also Ganfalf is clearly Odin with added Jesus bits.


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## VanDamMan

Wow this got to 17 pages. There are either alot of rapists on SAS or alot of women who like rapists. I had no clue.


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## Carolyne

VanDamMan said:


> Wow this got to 17 pages. There are either alot of rapists on SAS or alot of women who like rapists. I had no clue.


15 of those pages were a debate about Christianity. This last page is about the holocaust.


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## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> I was waiting for you to say something like this. Why would Satan lead Hitler to kill 6 million people, when satan could have tried to get them to sin instead? Why would Satan kill many people, when he could have sent less people, but nevertheless, sent people, to hell by tempting them to sin? After all, we know that the majority(or at least a lot) of people sin, destining themselves to eternal torment in hell. Wouldnt it be exponentially far more in satan's interests to try to get at least some of those people in hell forever, rather then kill them? Because obviously, i think we can say that its undeniable that Satan would want to send at least one soul to hell for eternity, rather than kill 6 million souls, because all their suffering, even once added up together, is finite compared to one person suffering forever and ever.
> 
> Explain away that


Well, murdering people is sin. The one who was a murderer, sinner, liar, and deceiver from the beginning is satan. Just because man does evil doesn't mean God agrees. If someone kills another in the name of Christ is it Jesus will? No, because He teaches us to love our neighbor as ourselves and our enemies. But whenever someone kills it's they always blame satan. Remember R. Ramrirez for instance? Only the devil demands blood and death, God only love and salvation. So it's satan's will and delight that people get murdered especially God's people. So since a lot of people who die are not saved they are sooner with satan wich he loves. It's the devil's will people are deceived and far from God, it's God's will every human will get saved.


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## sad1231234

Royals said:


> So since a lot of people who die are not saved they are sooner with satan wich he loves. It's the devil's will people are deceived and far from God, it's God's will every human will get saved.


Well surely God in his omniscience could have decided not to create satan? Or he could have at least not created evil, or maybe even kept everyone in heaven where "no one sins". But instead, he decides to create satan and all these people, knowing that many of them will go to hell "eternally", and knowing that satan's only purpose would be to lure all of God's beloved children into the blazing furnace of hell "forever". I think that is the best instance of God working in mysterious ways.


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## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> Well surely God in his omniscience could have decided not to create satan? Or he could have at least not created evil, or maybe even kept everyone in heaven where "no one sins". But instead, he decides to create satan and all these people, knowing that many of them will go to hell "eternally", and knowing that satan's only purpose would be to lure all of God's beloved children into the blazing furnace of hell "forever". I think that is the best instance of God working in mysterious ways.


Satan created his own persona. He was created as a good angel but choose to disobey God. What would this world be without evil? No freedom to choose between good and evil. To you want to be force dto be good all the time? Not me. Heaven is a reward for our godo behavior on earth. Just because He knows the future doesn't mean we don't have a choice and change course. We could choose to deny God and god our own way. So knowing our future has nothing to do with our free will or abbility to make choices. Because we don't know our future.You can disagree with the way God created it all but I know for sure you can't do it better.


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## Aribeth

ljubo said:


> Allah is like Gandalf not Sauron.


Allah is like Santa Claus.


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## ljubo

Aribeth said:


> Allah is like Santa Claus.


And you are like Pamela Anderson.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Satan created his own persona. He was created as a good angel but choose to disobey God. What would this world be without evil? No freedom to choose between good and evil. To you want to be force dto be good all the time? Not me. Heaven is a reward for our godo behavior on earth. Just because He knows the future doesn't mean we don't have a choice and change course. We could choose to deny God and god our own way. So knowing our future has nothing to do with our free will or abbility to make choices. Because we don't know our future.You can disagree with the way God created it all but I know for sure you can't do it better.


So, since we're talking about Satan now, I'm curious about the book of Revelation. Is it in the future, in the past? 'Cause Satan got locked up for a thousand years and then got thrown into a lake of fire. I mean, are we now in a post-Satan world, just all sinning and getting sent down to an unruled Hell? Or is he down there watching over all the God-sanctioned torture of non-believers?

And is he beautiful, as an angel should be, or is he hideous? Nobody really seems to describe anyone in the Bible, as far as I can see. Does he visit people himself, or get his lackeys to do it? Does he need to sway people at all, since if you're forcing yourself to be good, all you have to do is stop caring and then you're in the Devil's thrall?


----------



## sad1231234

Royals said:


> Satan created his own persona. He was created as a good angel but choose to disobey God. What would this world be without evil? No freedom to choose between good and evil. To you want to be force dto be good all the time? Not me. Heaven is a reward for our godo behavior on earth. Just because He knows the future doesn't mean we don't have a choice and change course. We could choose to deny God and god our own way. So knowing our future has nothing to do with our free will or abbility to make choices. Because we don't know our future.You can disagree with the way God created it all but I know for sure you can't do it better.


But assuming that Satan was in heaven, how can he sin in the first place, when you say that people cant sin in heaven?

What would this world be without evil? Well for starters, instead of the majority of us going to hell forever(as you believe), we would all end up in heaven. Oh and there pretty much wouldnt be any problems if there wasnt any evil.

"Do you want to be forced to be good all the time?" Do you want to risk going to hell to burn forever, just for the mere ability to choose between good and evil(eternal hell) in our finite time that we spend on this earth? Lol. Besides, according to your belief, in heaven we are forced to be good all the time. And why have the choice to choose at all, when the only option is to either avert eternal damnation or to go to hell forever.

God's foresight of the future has everything to do with our ability to choose freely, because when he creates us, he knows that he is destining the majority(as the bible clearly states) of us, to roast in hell.

How would you know for sure that you cant do it any better? You are so sure that your doctrine of eternally torturing innocent people(who got tempted to sin) is just and is better than any other belief. You know what is better than that(the creation of a bunch of souls just so some go to heaven and most suffer for eternity)? If no one was created at all. Its not like everyone who goes to hell(according to your belief) is an evil monster, its just that most people sin because of temptation, frustration, things like that.

From what i've noticed of Christians(who believe in the doctrine of an eternal hell), there seems to only be either people who hate the doctrine but follow it so they dont go to hell, and people who embrace the doctrine of eternal damnation. Im starting to think that the reason people continue to believe so strongly in this stupid doctrine, without even questioning it, because they either want to justify how such a horrific belief could possibly be "real" or because it makes them feel like they are better than other people.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> So, since we're talking about Satan now, I'm curious about the book of Revelation. Is it in the future, in the past? 'Cause Satan got locked up for a thousand years and then got thrown into a lake of fire. I mean, are we now in a post-Satan world, just all sinning and getting sent down to an unruled Hell? Or is he down there watching over all the God-sanctioned torture of non-believers?
> 
> And is he beautiful, as an angel should be, or is he hideous? Nobody really seems to describe anyone in the Bible, as far as I can see. Does he visit people himself, or get his lackeys to do it? Does he need to sway people at all, since if you're forcing yourself to be good, all you have to do is stop caring and then you're in the Devil's thrall?


Just read it. Revelations 20. The dragon (satan) will be locked up for a 1000 years so he can't mislead people. Then he will be released for a short time. And the souls who where beheaded for their faith in Jesus en the message of God. Who didn't
worship the beast. They lived again and ruled with Christ for a 1000 years. Satan searched the earth to bring together an army to battle God's army in Jerusalem. But fire will come down and devour them en the devil will be thrown in the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are. And then the last judgement, and anyone who wasn't written in the book of life will be thrown in the lake of fire. Then a new heaven and earth.

Satan is suppose to lure and deceive people with his lies so ofcourse he appears beautiful, he was the most beautiful angel in heaven but it's all fakeness, pride and vanity. Evil appears to be beautiful first but changed into ugliness when the truth comes out. Satan has his unpure spirits or demons who work for him. Just like God has His angels. You have to realize that whenever you sin spirits or negative/positive energies are drawn to you. If you smoke your breathing in and out these entitities, when a drunk leaves a pub all these dark entities are attached to him like flames. If you worship God and are focused on good righteous things you will attract angels. It's like people who attract the same kind of people they feel safe with. It's still a choice to serve God or satan. If you play with fire you will burn your hand. Sinners aren't aware of these things but like I said they are serving the devil unknowingly by their sin. Some people do it consciously. So it's very important to be aware of these things. Because sin can take you over and destroy you (without knowing).


----------



## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> But assuming that Satan was in heaven, how can he sin in the first place, when you say that people cant sin in heaven?
> 
> What would this world be without evil? Well for starters, instead of the majority of us going to hell forever(as you believe), we would all end up in heaven. Oh and there pretty much wouldnt be any problems if there wasnt any evil.
> 
> "Do you want to be forced to be good all the time?" Do you want to risk going to hell to burn forever, just for the mere ability to choose between good and evil(eternal hell) in our finite time that we spend on this earth? Lol. Besides, according to your belief, in heaven we are forced to be good all the time. And why have the choice to choose at all, when the only option is to either avert eternal damnation or to go to hell forever.
> 
> God's foresight of the future has everything to do with our ability to choose freely, because when he creates us, he knows that he is destining the majority(as the bible clearly states) of us, to roast in hell.
> 
> How would you know for sure that you cant do it any better? You are so sure that your doctrine of eternally torturing innocent people(who got tempted to sin) is just and is better than any other belief. You know what is better than that(the creation of a bunch of souls just so some go to heaven and most suffer for eternity)? If no one was created at all. Its not like everyone who goes to hell(according to your belief) is an evil monster, its just that most people sin because of temptation, frustration, things like that.
> 
> From what i've noticed of Christians(who believe in the doctrine of an eternal hell), there seems to only be either people who hate the doctrine but follow it so they dont go to hell, and people who embrace the doctrine of eternal damnation. Im starting to think that the reason people continue to believe so strongly in this stupid doctrine, without even questioning it, because they either want to justify how such a horrific belief could possibly be "real" or because it makes them feel like they are better than other people.


This once apparently. Yes but would anyone would want to go to heaven if you have free choice? God doesn't want to create robots. What use would that be? Nothing to learn, no freedom. Why be on earth at all?

I won't risk it because I know better not to choose evil. Just make the right choices. In heaven nobody is forced. When you choose to be there being good is nothing but normal. The choice is between good and evil. Would you want to be happy all the time? When you want to cry, when someone dies, when you feel sad but can't.


----------



## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Just read it. Revelations 20. The dragon (satan) will be locked up for a 1000 years so he can't mislead people. Then he will be released for a short time. And the souls who where beheaded for their faith in Jesus en the message of God. Who didn't worship the beast. They lived again and ruled with Christ for a 1000 years. Satan searched the earth to bring together an army to battle God's army in Jerusalem. But fire will come down and devour them en the devil will be thrown in the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are. And then the last judgement, and anyone who wasn't written in the book of life will be thrown in the lake of fire. Then a new heaven and earth.


Yes, I said that in my post. My question was *when?* Has it already happened, is it ongoing? I mean, Revelation was written approximately 2000 years ago. So when exactly is this '1000 years' supposed to be? How do you know all that didn't happen 1000 years ago and this *is* the new heaven and earth? What if it's like the movie Memento and we all just assume that it's not over so we replay the same story again and again?


----------



## sad1231234

Royals said:


> Yes but would anyone would want to go to heaven if you have free choice? God doesn't want to create robots. What use would that be? Nothing to learn, no freedom. Why be on earth at all?
> 
> I won't risk it because I know better not to choose evil. Just make the right choices. In heaven nobody is forced. When you choose to be there being good is nothing but normal. The choice is between good and evil. Would you want to be happy all the time? When you want to cry, when someone dies, when you feel sad but can't.


Like i already explained, the price we pay for free choice is that most of us have to burn in hell forever. I think there is a serious error in your logic if you think that the majority of people have to eternally suffer, just so a small handful can enjoy free choice while barely averting eternal hell.

According to the laws of probability and according to what you said, we will all go to hell. Because in all of eternity(which is unmeasurable by time), we will be bound to sin at least infinite times, and you cant say you wont sin, because sinning is an action done when you are tempted, and while sinning because of temptation is a finite human error, the probability of that finite human error occuring within the "time" span of eternity means that there is an infinite chance that you will sin. Unless of course God forgives us, but we all know that he can only forgive us before death(or no later than the day of judgement, according to what some people believe).

So in summary, we all go to hell eventually, according to your belief and according to what you just said.


----------



## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> Yes, I said that in my post. My question was *when?* Has it already happened, is it ongoing? I mean, Revelation was written approximately 2000 years ago. So when exactly is this '1000 years' supposed to be? How do you know all that didn't happen 1000 years ago and this *is* the new heaven and earth? What if it's like the movie Memento and we all just assume that it's not over so we replay the same story again and again?


Only God knows, not even the Son knows. So unfortunately that is one thing we don't know yet untill it happens. So don't believe all those false prophets who predict the end of the world. Thankfully God left His word and our future as a warning to know what will happen. Or else it would be a big shock if we couldn't prepare (spiritually). Certain things from Revelations already happened because we can look back in history, and some didn't. Jesus hasn't returned yet. A new earth and kingdom hasn't come yet. The anit-christ neither. Look at the seven seals and see wich already happened. In Matthew 25 Jesus also said what has to happen before He returns.


----------



## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> Like i already explained, the price we pay for free choice is that most of us have to burn in hell forever. I think there is a serious error in your logic if you think that the majority of people have to eternally suffer, just so a small handful can enjoy free choice while barely averting eternal hell.
> 
> According to the laws of probability and according to what you said, we will all go to hell. Because in all of eternity(which is unmeasurable by time), we will be bound to sin at least infinite times, and you cant say you wont sin, because sinning is an action done when you are tempted, and while sinning because of temptation is a finite human error, the probability of that finite human error occuring within the "time" span of eternity means that there is an infinite chance that you will sin. Unless of course God forgives us, but we all know that he can only forgive us before death(or no later than the day of judgement, according to what some people believe).
> 
> So in summary, we all go to hell eventually, according to your belief and according to what you just said.


Yes, a righteous consequence of your actions. So now that I know I make sure not to end up in hell. And not to pretend I don't hear it and ignore it. I believe in righteous rewards or punishments for your words, actions, lifestyle. Bad people don't belong in heaven and good people not in hell.

Yes, but the difference is that God is faithful to forgive believers (saved) who might sin and not those who didn't repent or ask forgiveness for their sins. People who hurt themselves and others don't deserve salvation but God is merciful to offer them it if they are remorseful. Be glad God is so loving He wants to save us all. Without a chance for repentance we all would be doomed.


----------



## sad1231234

Royals said:


> Yes, a righteous consequence of your actions. So now that I know I make sure not to end up in hell. And not to pretend I don't hear it and ignore it. I believe in righteous rewards or punishments for your words, actions, lifestyle. Bad people don't belong in heaven and good people not in hell.
> 
> Yes, but the difference is that God is faithful to forgive believers (saved) who might sin and not those who didn't repent or ask forgiveness for their sins. People who hurt themselves and others don't deserve salvation but God is merciful to offer them it if they are remorseful. Be glad God is so loving He wants to save us all. Without a chance for repentance we all would be doomed.


I think that anyone who agrees, with the eternal torture of someone for merely getting drunk, has a very sickening perspective on things. I certainly dont hope they have any alcahol in heaven, awaiting for someone to drink so that they can go to hell.

Yes but on the scale of eternity, it is inevitable that all of us will sin and that at some point or another, each of us will not show remorse for sins. Because eternity has no end, and although we can make up our mind not to sin for a finite period of time(as long as it may be), we cannot stop for sinning in all of eternity because throughout all of eternity, everything that can possibly(emphasis on this word, as i mean by only everything that is possible/logical) happen will happen. And sin is a possibility in heaven, according to your belief, so everyone will all eventually sin, and because showing no remorse for sin is a possibility, everyone will all eventually show no remorse.

In summery, in case you dont have much time to read my previous paragraphs:

In the span of our infinite existence in heaven, we are bound to sin and we are bound to not show repent for that sin, because eternity is neverending and every thing that can happen(excluding things caused directly or indirectly by divine intervention, but you said that we have free will in heaven so we cannot be forced by God to not sin and we cannot be forced to repent/show remorse for our sins) will happen throughout the course of all eternity. That is according to the law of probability, which is as indisputable a law as any other mathematical law(such as 1+1=2). 
Arguing with this mathematical reasoning is the equivalent of suggesting that the universe literally came into existence from absolutely nothing at all.

So in other words, what i said is fact, and your belief is wrong.


----------



## UltraShy

I can give them expertly administered corporal punishment instead of that silly 50 Shades of Grey nonsense.

I once has a woman who freaked out when she learned I owned guns. My ad mentioned I was an NRA Life Member. Is it surprising that NRA members own firearms? Evidently not obvious to at least one really stupid woman.


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## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Only God knows, not even the Son knows. So unfortunately that is one thing we don't know yet untill it happens. So don't believe all those false prophets who predict the end of the world. Thankfully God left His word and our future as a warning to know what will happen. Or else it would be a big shock if we couldn't prepare (spiritually). Certain things from Revelations already happened because we can look back in history, and some didn't. Jesus hasn't returned yet. A new earth and kingdom hasn't come yet. The anit-christ neither. Look at the seven seals and see wich already happened. In Matthew 25 Jesus also said what has to happen before He returns.


Wouldn't it be better if we didn't know though? So that God can tell the truly righteous from those who just don't wanna burn in Hell? Also, I've always wondered - how do you tell a false prophet from a real one?

As for the seven seals, you must be a futurist, because many people who believe in them think they've already happened. Either way it's all very Nostradamus-like, these predictions and signs. Couldn't God just say 'It's gonna be October 16th 2048' rather than making it so obscure?


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## sad1231234

Royals said:


> Only God knows, not even the Son knows. So unfortunately that is one thing we don't know yet untill it happens. So don't believe all those false prophets who predict the end of the world. Thankfully God left His word and our future as a warning to know what will happen. Or else it would be a big shock if we couldn't prepare (spiritually). Certain things from Revelations already happened because we can look back in history, and some didn't. Jesus hasn't returned yet. A new earth and kingdom hasn't come yet. The anit-christ neither. Look at the seven seals and see wich already happened. In Matthew 25 Jesus also said what has to happen before He returns.


That doesnt make sense. If Jesus and God form a trinity/one, then how can one of them know something that the other doesnt? Or how can Jesus simply happen to not know the future, in all his power and knowledge? And what is even the point of God hiding that(the foresight of the future) from his Son? Just so Jesus cant know? You want to know why God didnt tell the Son? So the writers(not divinely inspired) of the Bible could avoid having to tell the future. Because when you apply your thinking ability to this, you realise that it is simply pointless for God to not tell his Son something.


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## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> That doesnt make sense. If Jesus and God form a trinity/one, then how can one of them know something that the other doesnt? Or how can Jesus simply happen to not know the future, in all his power and knowledge? And what is even the point of God hiding that(the foresight of the future) from his Son? Just so Jesus cant know? You want to know why God didnt tell the Son? So the writers(not divinely inspired) of the Bible could avoid having to tell the future. Because when you apply your thinking ability to this, you realise that it is simply pointless for God to not tell his Son something.


It does make sense. We are also one with God does that mean we know all His plans? Jesus said He cannot do anything by Himself without God's power. God gives Him and us the power. So only God is all knowing and powerful. Jesus isn't suppose to know because if He told us we would be living in fear and not in freedom and love. So it's best not to know when the end comes. Jesus knows everything the Father wants to tell Him or gives Him. Just like us.


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## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> Wouldn't it be better if we didn't know though? So that God can tell the truly righteous from those who just don't wanna burn in Hell? Also, I've always wondered - how do you tell a false prophet from a real one?
> 
> As for the seven seals, you must be a futurist, because many people who believe in them think they've already happened. Either way it's all very Nostradamus-like, these predictions and signs. Couldn't God just say 'It's gonna be October 16th 2048' rather than making it so obscure?


Just because we know that the end will come, or that the earth one day will be gone (wch is a fact), doesn't mean we have to live in fear constantly. If we knew an exact date we would live in anxiety. Look at all the crazy people would go live on a mountain when another false prophet predicted the end of the world. God wants us not to be anxious so that's why He didn't give a date. But He gave clear signs wich have to happen and those who are given to see will know them.

You simply know a false prophet by their words and actions. Are their words biblical? And is their lifestyle like a true believer? It's best not to trust any mortal and imperfect man but God only.


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## TheWelshOne

Royals said:


> Just because we know that the end will come, or that the earth one day will be gone (wch is a fact), doesn't mean we have to live in fear constantly. If we knew an exact date we would live in anxiety. Look at all the crazy people would go live on a mountain when another false prophet predicted the end of the world. God wants us not to be anxious so that's why He didn't give a date. But He gave clear signs wich have to happen and those who are given to see will know them.
> 
> You simply know a false prophet by their words and actions. Are their words biblical? And is their lifestyle like a true believer? It's best not to trust any mortal and imperfect man but God only.


But you do live in fear constantly. You live by a set of rules that either elevates you to Heaven or condemns you to Hell, how does that not make you fear for your future and your salvation? And with so much interpretation for the Biblical texts, how can you truly know that you're living as a true believer? What if the Old Testament was right and ritual sacrifice was the way to Heaven? What if the fact that you have social anxiety (i.e. a mental weakness) means you're not living Biblically?

Philippians 4:6-7 "Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

And wasn't the Bible written by mortal and imperfect men who claimed to be talking to God? Couldn't they have been false prophets? Their words *are* Biblical but who says they're truly the Word of God? And don't you realize that if God really cared so much about non-believers, he could clear up all these questions simply by showing himself? Not an image in a piece of toast or a pastor who claims to have heard the voice of God, but actual proof.


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## sad1231234

Royals said:


> It does make sense. We are also one with God does that mean we know all His plans? Jesus said He cannot do anything by Himself without God's power. God gives Him and us the power. So only God is all knowing and powerful. Jesus isn't suppose to know because if He told us we would be living in fear and not in freedom and love. So it's best not to know when the end comes. Jesus knows everything the Father wants to tell Him or gives Him. Just like us.


It looks like you have no answer for my other post which came just at the top of this page. Perhaps religious beliefs and claims cant answer to solid mathematical reasoning









If we are one with God, then God is evil, because some people are evil. "Jesus... without God's power" dont you think that kind of sounds like an explanation made by people who were not divinely inspired? God doesnt give us any power at all, there is no evidence for that whatsoever.

"Living in fear..." that is a very weak excuse if you ask me. Not only is our fear of hell exponentially greater than any fear of an apocalyptic tribulation, but God could still tell the Son yet have the Son not tell us, and it is far more probable that the reason that a prediction of the future is not available in this case is because the writers(again, not divinely inspired) of the Bible didnt know, rather than Jesus not being told by God just so that we wont have to be scared of the end of the world. Meanwhile, we are suppose to be less scared of going to hell where people scream in unfathomable agony for all eternity, just because we accidentally have a bit too much wine, because we want to do what Jesus did. Lol.

We can believe in whatever we want, and we can preach it to other people, but if it is not backed up by proof that is consistent with logical reasoning and/or substantial evidence, it is no more real than a fairy tale.


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## 8888

No, no, and no, reformed or not. I think the way rapists get dates is usually by not telling people they are rapists.


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## Royals

TheWelshOne said:


> But you do live in fear constantly. You live by a set of rules that either elevates you to Heaven or condemns you to Hell, how does that not make you fear for your future and your salvation? And with so much interpretation for the Biblical texts, how can you truly know that you're living as a true believer? What if the Old Testament was right and ritual sacrifice was the way to Heaven? What if the fact that you have social anxiety (i.e. a mental weakness) means you're not living Biblically?
> 
> Philippians 4:6-7 "Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."
> 
> And wasn't the Bible written by mortal and imperfect men who claimed to be talking to God? Couldn't they have been false prophets? Their words *are* Biblical but who says they're truly the Word of God? And don't you realize that if God really cared so much about non-believers, he could clear up all these questions simply by showing himself? Not an image in a piece of toast or a pastor who claims to have heard the voice of God, but actual proof.


No, love casts out all fear. But I never fear my beliefs or my faith. I have deepassurance and conviction. Sinners should fear because they are not sure what's to come. I know the truth because the Holy Spirit convicts me. Also when I keep the commandments i know I am ok. And I know that when I believe in Jesus I have eternal life. These are all promises. The Bible says clearly that the OT was an old time with it's own rules and cultures. The Levitical rules were given to the Jews not the gentiles. We all know this. Jesus also said He demanded no sacrifice but grace. If you are sick you must be healed so you cannot help that. Jesus said He came for the sick, not the healthy because they don't need a doctor. Sickness is caused by the circumstances, your experiences, bad health. Things out of your control. If you are born with it you can't help it. So you don't have to be accountable for sickness. Only for your words and deeds.

The prophets were wise men. That's why God chose them. How could they not be inspired? Wich writer isn't inspired? It's nothing abormal right? I know it's the truth because today still believers are transformed by God and led to do miraculous things. It shows me that God still works through us as back then. Also I believe the Bible because it's prophetic. Daniel, Isiah and John made many predictions wich came true.

God could have shown Himself physically, but He does it spiritually because He wants us to believe by faith and choose willingly. We believe what we see so what reason has faith still? Also God's presence is too light for us to take so it's not possible anyway. Also what fun would it be for science if we saw everything and everything was discovered. There would be no secret left to discover. I love this wonder, mystery and revelation of spirituality and God.

So, many people love these aspects of religion also. That's why it's so populair. Because it fills some empty voids they have inside. And it helps them get through life.


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## Royals

sad1231234 said:


> It looks like you have no answer for my other post which came just at the top of this page. Perhaps religious beliefs and claims cant answer to solid mathematical reasoning
> 
> If we are one with God, then God is evil, because some people are evil. "Jesus... without God's power" dont you think that kind of sounds like an explanation made by people who were not divinely inspired? God doesnt give us any power at all, there is no evidence for that whatsoever.
> 
> "Living in fear..." that is a very weak excuse if you ask me. Not only is our fear of hell exponentially greater than any fear of an apocalyptic tribulation, but God could still tell the Son yet have the Son not tell us, and it is far more probable that the reason that a prediction of the future is not available in this case is because the writers(again, not divinely inspired) of the Bible didnt know, rather than Jesus not being told by God just so that we wont have to be scared of the end of the world. Meanwhile, we are suppose to be less scared of going to hell where people scream in unfathomable agony for all eternity, just because we accidentally have a bit too much wine, because we want to do what Jesus did. Lol.
> 
> We can believe in whatever we want, and we can preach it to other people, but if it is not backed up by proof that is consistent with logical reasoning and/or substantial evidence, it is no more real than a fairy tale.


Spiritually one. God's Spirit becomes part of us. If we led ourselves be led by His Spirit then we are living according to the Spirit not the flesh. Jesus was honest. He said we cannot do anything by ourselves with our own power but only with God's power. So many people have been led to do great things in God's name. All throughout history. There's miracles happening everyday.

No, He could not tell the Son because the Son reveals all He knows of the Father. So if someone asked and He had to lie He wouldn't be doing His Father's will. Get it? He at least told us the signs and that there will be an end. Tell me honestly, do you want to know when the end of the world comes? Being anxious and all. Would you start living without fear all of a sudden? And not frantically and nervous? Oh no, I have so much days left, hurry! People who know they are going to die hurry to do all the things they want to do because they fear the end is near. It's no way you're going to enjoy life anymore. People do the craziest things because of that. Just look at cults. So God is merciful and loving enough not to let us live in fear knowing the end is near.

They were divinly inspired with wisdom they couldn't know. Isiah, John, Daniel all made predictions wich came true. They are prophets for a reason.

If you know what's good for you do it, if you know what is bad or unhealthy don't. People know it's not right to get drunk or drink too much. Because it makes them feel ****ty afterwards. So don't act like you don't be knowing what is good or bad for you sonny  And don't twist Jesus words. The Bible never says Jesus was drunk because He can't break His own commandments! He was sinless. So just because they drank grapejuice without much alcohol, or none at all, doesn't mean we should drink spirits with a high percentage of alchohol!

You can't even give proof for logical reasoning. You can't give physical proof for it.
Let alone proof my God doesn't exist. While God shows His proof daily through His children an miracles. The whole Bible is full of these. You simply choose to deny all this because you made up in your own mind how you want to live and admitting God's existence means you have to change your ways. So ofcourse scientists won't admit God created the universe or else their 1000 years of sciencifical reasoning will crumble into pieces.


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## truant

Royals said:


> Sinners should fear because they are not sure what's to come.


If I don't believe in Christianity, I can't be afraid. You have to believe to be afraid. I'm not afraid of Hell for the same reason I don't fear being eaten by a one-eyed, one-horned, flyin' purple people eater. I can't just choose to believe. If God doesn't give me a reason to believe, and I end up in Hell because I couldn't believe, even if I wanted to, then he has consigned me to Hell for something I had no control over. I'm not going to respect or worship a God that would do that to people, because they don't deserve my respect or worship.


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## sad1231234

Royals said:


> Spiritually one. God's Spirit becomes part of us. If we led ourselves be led by His Spirit then we are living according to the Spirit not the flesh. Jesus was honest. He said we cannot do anything by ourselves with our own power but only with God's power. So many people have been led to do great things in God's name. All throughout history. There's miracles happening everyday.
> 
> No, He could not tell the Son because the Son reveals all He knows of the Father. So if someone asked and He had to lie He wouldn't be doing His Father's will. Get it? He at least told us the signs and that there will be an end. Tell me honestly, do you want to know when the end of the world comes? Being anxious and all. Would you start living without fear all of a sudden? And not frantically and nervous? Oh no, I have so much days left, hurry! People who know they are going to die hurry to do all the things they want to do because they fear the end is near. It's no way you're going to enjoy life anymore. People do the craziest things because of that. Just look at cults. So God is merciful and loving enough not to let us live in fear knowing the end is near.
> 
> They were divinly inspired with wisdom they couldn't know. Isiah, John, Daniel all made predictions wich came true. They are prophets for a reason.
> 
> If you know what's good for you do it, if you know what is bad or unhealthy don't. People know it's not right to get drunk or drink too much. Because it makes them feel ****ty afterwards. So don't act like you don't be knowing what is good or bad for you sonny  And don't twist Jesus words. The Bible never says Jesus was drunk because He can't break His own commandments! He was sinless. So just because they drank grapejuice without much alcohol, or none at all, doesn't mean we should drink spirits with a high percentage of alchohol!
> 
> You can't even give proof for logical reasoning. You can't give physical proof for it.
> Let alone proof my God doesn't exist. While God shows His proof daily through His children an miracles. The whole Bible is full of these. You simply choose to deny all this because you made up in your own mind how you want to live and admitting God's existence means you have to change your ways. So ofcourse scientists won't admit God created the universe or else their 1000 years of sciencifical reasoning will crumble into pieces.


You swore. You know what the bible says about swearing?

"The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable, but the mouth of the wicked, what is perverse." Proverbs 10:32

The bible says that people who swear are wicked, and people who are wicked burn in hell forever. If i were you i would be down on my hands and knees praying to the almighty for his everlasting infinite benevolence to show you some mercy.

You cannot prove any "miracle" beyond reasonable doubt and there is always the possibility of it being scietifically explainable. For example, the ancients thought that some giant elephant/turtle god held up the Earth. Now we know that the Sun's revolutionary orbit "holds" the earth in space. Medieval people thought the Earth was flat. We now know that it is round, because gravity pulls it into a spherical shape. But they didnt know about gravity, and before Newton, they would have dismissed gravity as some kind of joke and said that God was making things(such as the apple) fall. We are unearthing much more about science, and we find that the more we do so, the more the possibility of the existence of a divine creator seems illogical and almost even absurd. Not to say that a God doesnt exist, but the more our technology advances and the more we find out about the universe, the more religious beliefs get turned into myths and the more beliefs(scientific theories previously thought to be illogical proposals) are proved to be correct with scientific evidence(from observing the universe, its laws, etc).

People usually dont feel "****y" after drinking(unless its way too much) and if they do, im sure that "****ty" feeling wouldnt be sufficient enough warning to avoid(by not drinking alcahol) hell. I mean, if God is going to torture someone forever just for getting drunk, he might as well have made alcahol extremely painful to drink. But God created alcahol because(presumably) he wants to tempt mankind into sinning. But God said in the Bible that he does not tempt.

"God is merciful to not let us live in fear by not telling us when the End will occur." I think any thinking human being would be literally infinite times as scared of going to hell. The statement you just said equates to my following example: "This penny i found is going to be very helpful even though im going to win a million dollars tomorrow." This demonstrates a very obvious flaw in your method of reasoning.

"You cant even give proof for logical reasoning", "let alone proof my God doesnt exist".

This is literally the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. Here's why:

- what you just stated was a form of reasoning
- logical reasoning is mathematical, inerrant, and the most fundamental basis of human thinking
- proof for logical reasoning exists in the fact that all things which the human consciousness can comprehend are able to be reasoned(thought about) logically(in a way that is according to the laws of what can/cannot be true or even comprehended by the human mind)

- the universe has been scientifically proven to be over 13.8 billion years old. Even if the Earth was 6,000 years old, why would God create the universe in the way he did while waiting 13.8 billion years for the conditions of the universe to be able to facilitate the existence of the Earth when he could have made it a different way, in all his almighty wisdom? And why would God even make the Earth 13.8 billion years after he created the universe when he could have created them simultaneously? Is he trying to fool us? 
- all life on Earth is designed/evolved to be able to survive. This is the result of what we call natural selection. Then why did God create so many species(such as dinosaurs) with the ability to survive when 99 percent of them died off?

I recommend reading the whole thing if you want to open your eyes to the truth about our universe. That truth is in the form of solid mathematical reasoning and collected scientific evidence.


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