# Maybe I'm better off without therapy



## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

:stu 

I just don't see what good it will do me.
Id rather purchase a book specifically about social anxiety than talk it out with another quack. My quack was nice, yes, but I lied to her, so obivously I'm not comfortable enough having her as my psych. She gave me a list of things to work on till I can see her again next year, but I never bothered. In fact, I don't think I've even looked at that sheet of paper since I brought it home and hid it in my drawer. :um 

Besides, I don't need anything else cutting into my school time. I've missed too much already.


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## CBT Junky (Jun 6, 2007)

You may want to look into CBT. It is basic self help and extremely effective when you apply yourself to the exercises. Start slowly and build yourself up with the thought countering exercises before going into the exposures and it can really help. I like the Books by Sam Obitz & David Burns the best.


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

I think you'll make miraculous progress now that the underscore is out of your name, 

I'm wondering too about the therapist I saw.


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## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

CBT Junky said:


> You may want to look into CBT. It is basic self help and extremely effective when you apply yourself to the exercises. Start slowly and build yourself up with the thought countering exercises before going into the exposures and it can really help. I like the Books by Sam Obitz & David Burns the best.


Yeah I was considering that as my next option.


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## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

FairleighCalm said:


> I think you'll make miraculous progress now that the underscore is out of your name,


Oh fer sure. It was holding me back for so long. =p


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

I just filled out a 344 questonairre. How many times do I have to say, "I rarely drink"?


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## TheStig (Nov 24, 2007)

This probably sounds inappropriate, but I was the same way when I was seventeen and seeing my first shrink. I lied to him about everything and never gave him a chance to help; it didn't help that during one of the first sessions, I started pacing around his office in a threatening manner. But eventually, five shrinks later, I found someone that I can talk to and really cares as opposed to just "being aware" of feelings as she would put it. I think the last thing you need to do is to retreat even further; you'll just be giving in to your avoidant tendencies. And even if you're lying to your shrink now, at least you're talking to someone. 

Does 'NS' stand for Nova Scotia? If so, does universal health care cover psychiatric treatment?


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## sab_07 (Oct 15, 2007)

I guess I got lucky..I saw my first therapist for the second time today and I absolutely love talking to her. I didn't want the session to end. I'm doing CBT.


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## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

TheStig said:


> This probably sounds inappropriate, but I was the same way when I was seventeen and seeing my first shrink. I lied to him about everything and never gave him a chance to help; it didn't help that during one of the first sessions, I started pacing around his office in a threatening manner. But eventually, five shrinks later, I found someone that I can talk to and really cares as opposed to just "being aware" of feelings as she would put it. I think the last thing you need to do is to retreat even further; you'll just be giving in to your avoidant tendencies. And even if you're lying to your shrink now, at least you're talking to someone.
> 
> Does 'NS' stand for Nova Scotia? If so, does universal health care cover psychiatric treatment?


Maybe. But I'm really starting to think therapy is just not for me.
My psych. charges $140 for 50 minutes, my health care barely covers 3 visits ($400 a year). 
(yes NS stands for nova scotia)


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## KimberlyK (Nov 11, 2004)

IllusionOfHappiness said:


> :stu
> 
> I just don't see what good it will do me.
> Id rather purchase a book specifically about social anxiety than talk it out with another quack. My quack was nice, yes, but I lied to her, so obivously I'm not comfortable enough having her as my psych. She gave me a list of things to work on till I can see her again next year, but I never bothered. In fact, I don't think I've even looked at that sheet of paper since I brought it home and hid it in my drawer. :um
> ...


You may not be cut out for therapy but you wouldn't be the first person to lie to a therapist. It also takes a while to develop a rapport so you feel comfortable telling them your innermost secrets. I have never really done any of the work my therapist has sent me home with (I do tell her my reasons for not doing it). Don't feel obligated to do those things if you don't feel comfortable or you just don't have the energy.


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## tomcoldaba (Jul 1, 2007)

I found Dr Burns book When Panic Attacks very helpful.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

IllusionOfHappiness said:


> TheStig said:
> 
> 
> > This probably sounds inappropriate, but I was the same way when I was seventeen and seeing my first shrink. I lied to him about everything and never gave him a chance to help; it didn't help that during one of the first sessions, I started pacing around his office in a threatening manner. But eventually, five shrinks later, I found someone that I can talk to and really cares as opposed to just "being aware" of feelings as she would put it. I think the last thing you need to do is to retreat even further; you'll just be giving in to your avoidant tendencies. And even if you're lying to your shrink now, at least you're talking to someone.
> ...


psychiatrists are free, you are seeing a psychologist, thats why your paying.


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## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

Noca said:


> psychiatrists are free, you are seeing a psychologist, thats why your paying.


yeah I think if I ever go back to therapy it'll be with someone who doesn't charge anything.


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## Bandit6 (Oct 20, 2007)

Noca said:


> IllusionOfHappiness said:
> 
> 
> > TheStig said:
> ...


Free psychiatric and psychologist services are generally dispensed by hospitals and social services dept. and have very long waiting. You're better off paying for someone with probably better competence who will take you immediately... unless you have to cut meals to pay for it.


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## MissPhitMSD (Dec 9, 2007)

Bandit6 said:


> Free psychiatric and psychologist services are generally dispensed by hospitals and social services dept. and have very long waiting. You're better off paying for someone with probably better competence who will take you immediately... unless you have to cut meals to pay for it.


I agree with you there. They can also be very overworked, and i am not comfortable yet speaking to the person I have to because of this reason. However, she is just a "processer" and I won't see a psychiatrist until my 3rd visit. But it is very affordable.

Just like meds though, it is different for everyone. If you don't want to talk to anybody about it, and want to pursue research on your own, than you owe that to yourself. Nobody knows you better than yourself. This might even be helpful down the road, if you did want to start seeing somebody, i bet you would know of the lingo and facts, and you wouldn't have to waste time going over "the basics"

I must say, i find this admirable. I know I would like to go it on my own, but I need a guiding hand as I do.


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## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

Seeing a psychologist full-time would be just dandy.

If I could ****ing afford it.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

IllusionOfHappiness said:


> Seeing a psychologist full-time would be just dandy.
> 
> If I could ****ing afford it.


it would be nice if for anyone who could afford it. I wish I had a full-time CBT therapist to do exposures with.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

I finally found a therapist I could totally open up to - it totally changes the therapy. If you cannot be honest then you can't progress. CBT therapists tend to be more down to earth - my one is great and I get on really well with him, its cool. Not surprisingly I'm begiunning to feel one hell of a lot better again.

Remember CBT is not just form filling - there is a process you must follow for it to work.

Cognitive (paper based work)

Identify and challenge THOUGHTS (a shallow level of belief) through mood diary
Identify and challenge ASSUMPTIONS and RULES
Identify and challenge CORE BELIEFS

Notice that there are 3 LEVELS OF THINKING. This is important.

Behavio(u)ral (getting out and testing new beliefs and rules)

Use experiments to test the validity of new rules, assumptions and beliefs and to practice and develop social skills.

*Greenberger and Padesky's "Mind Over Mood" is absolutely the best book for showing and guiding you through the process correctly.* Remember: A bad therapist is as good as no therapist - so choose wisely. If you want CBT, say thats what you want. Some therapists may have their oen blend of other types that might not be right for you. Psychodynamic approaches sit oddly with CBT - in fact CBT was designed to be most of the things that psychodynamic isnt. If you wanna know more, google Aaron Beck and CBT.

Ross


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## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks for that, Ross ^^


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Feeling good Handbook by Dr. David Burns is another good example of CBT in a self help book. Its prolly the most recognized self help book for mood and anxiety disorders there is.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

The handbook is good, buts its section on Social Anxiety is a little weak, mainoly because its old. The Gillian Butler book is based on the most up to date research on CBT for SA and is quite a gem. Equally good is Donald Rapee's "Overcoming Social Phobia". These are the bibles of CBT for SA


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## CBT Junky (Jun 6, 2007)

Great CBT posts Ross. Keep up the good work :banana


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## dkknight (Feb 24, 2008)

I've stumbled across this forums yesterday. All the reading that I have made through so far has been of extreme help. I guess I found a little spot where I can unwind all my fears and emotions.

Thanks Ross, especially for the book recommendations. I found myself, at 5am yesterday, ordering from Amazon 'When Panic Attacks' from David Burns. I can't wait to get my hands on it. I guess it will make a difference, that extra bit of push I need. Thanks again.


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## CBT Junky (Jun 6, 2007)

CBT is great stuff Diogo. I hope you are having success with it.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

You bring a lot of knowledge to the board but I also want to add that their are other causes as well at least in 95 percent of the cases with social anxiety. need deprivation, bad body image, and a poor self image coming from programming or years of repetition of what someone might have said whether sibilings, parents, friends, or neighbors. but negative core beliefs are the main central theme in social anxiety but im not sure if it applies to me if you have the severe form with that selective mutism thats where my curiousity rises.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

> You bring a lot of knowledge to the board but I also want to add that their are other causes as well at least in 95 percent of the cases with social anxiety. need deprivation, bad body image, and a poor self image coming from programming or years of repetition of what someone might have said whether sibilings, parents, friends, or neighbors. but negative core beliefs are the main central theme in social anxiety but im not sure if it applies to me if you have the severe form with that selective mutism thats where my curiousity rises.


It would seem you feel I am missing a level of depth of understanding into emotional problems which I in fact talk about very frequently, and feel I in fact have a good undersanding of. I feel a little slighted by this, so I would like to respond.

As a first question, have you been through a complete course of CBT yet? If not, why? If you have not, how can you be sure it does not address this depth if you have not worked all the way through a course of it, through all the required steps and come out the other side? Do you reason "I feel hopeless, and therefore I must be" ? How do you know it will not help YOU? Do you 'just know', or do you have some solid, incontrovertible proof in your hand? Depression and anxiety make us see things in emotional terms. Could it be influencing you now? You may feel I am trying to say you are unintelligent - in fact I am simply pointing out that emotional disorders cause people to feel hopeless and hence see everything around them as hopeless, when this may not be true.

There are some common misconceptions there about CBT and it would help to explain a littrle bit of CT theory.

Core beliefs come from all those things you just mentioned - CBT theory incorporates this understanding. Its just that the vast majority of cases do not need to go deeply into past history in order to effect symptomatic change - hence CBT is appropriate and effective. Instead of deep history, it picks up pthe problems at the belief stage e.g "I am unworthy of love"; "I am weird"; "everyone hates me"; "Everyone leaves me"; "I never fit in" and so on. As feelings, thoughts and behaviours are all linked, changing thoughts and behaviours changes your deep beliefs and hence your feelings, whether you know how you got there or not. It accepts the past and says "what can I do differently now to change".

If past experiences continue to cause PERSONALITY RELATED problems, sych as entitlement related arrogance, deep fears of and overreaction to abandonment which stretch to even casual acquantances, or violent / abusive behaviours which lead to a maintenance of depression and anxiety through relationship and life failures, then approaches such as Schema Therapy and so on are very effective at dealing with this. On this site people feel they have Social Anxiety - SA is a diagnosis written up by mental health professionals so that they can use the tools it has developed to treat it. It is classed as an Axis I disorder, a set of symptoms and feelings that cause interference with everyday life. If CBT is able to prevent the interference in everyday life, then it has done its job and presumes that once the individual is free of the anxiety / depression related symptoms, that they are now feeling better (a reasonable assumption IMO). If your anxiety goes and you have problems that are NOT caused by the anxiety or depression, then you have SOMETHING ELSE on top of SA that must be treated. In my case, I have newly diagnosed personality issues which I am treating through Schema therapy. These are classed as a seprate set of disorders under the current system.

CBt addresses a higher level of cognition - the core belief - which comes from childhood and later life experiences. You do not HAVE to understand and rake up the past to feel better - in fact the reason CBT was developed is because so many people receiving Psychodynamic Therapy ( the one that takes years and goes all through your childhood) very commonly led to people who knew themselves inside out, but didnt know what to DO to make their lives different. They were still stuck, and so Aaron Beck pioneered CBT in the early 80's to address this. Since its inception, it has undergone constant refinement and change based on scientifuc evidence and studies.

Schema Therapy is a fusing of the emotional / life story therapies and CBT, providing insight and action plans. Do not write off CBT before trying it just because you believe you 'must' unearth your past. Schema will still use cognitive techniques, and increasingly many psychodynamic therapists now incorporate elements of CBT into their approach. IMO this is a weaker way to do it, as CBT methods eere designed with precise recovery stages in mind.

If your main symptoms are anxiety and depression, then taking up CBT through the many books available can make a significant dent in your symptoms, oedipus coimplex unearthed or not  A therapist is even better.

As a last comment, my posts are desinged to help people with Social Anxiety Disorder (and to some extent depression) as defined by the DSM-IV. If you feel (or know) your diagnosis is selective mutism, then my posts were never designed to speak to this (very rare) condition in the first place. In fact you have motivated me to learn about it.

Thanks

Ross

EDIT: It would seem that, according to the SAS page on it, that some of the 'preferred treatments are behavioural and psychogoligal' ones. Have you recieved a diagnosis? Have you tried any form of therapy?


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

well, I have to agree im not here to bash anyone as I already feel threatened but no pun intended I just started believing what I may have read from the internet from sosuave.com a post by suzuki and thought that it was accurate. However, I have done comprehensive cbt tapes by dr. thomas richards but that wasnt enough if any help on challenging or changing my life script. I guess each person is different but that is just here say. The whole point is to make myself happy and feel as if I cant but im curious to know is it possible to have selective mutism even in adulthood if suspected in earlier years throughout childhood? Sa is complex and trying to understand it is pointless to me but youre very ntelligent and admire your knowledge.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

I wish I could add more about selective mutism, but I really dont know much about it  from what I saw its very rare. I would be totally guessing, but an idea is that, if you feel open and bubbly around your family, but not other people, then for some reason (call me Sherlock) you are afraid of strangers / acquaintances but not family.

So my brain is winding on, and saying "well hey, maybe this dude had a great, loving family, but when he hit school or whatever, something really nasty happened, or it was a sucky environment for him and he felt the best thing to do was keep quiet - to avoid being noticed so that people do not pick him out" OR "someone told this guy that 'children are seen and not heard' and so he feels he is not allowed or meant to speak around others".

As a little experiment, try to remember a recent time when you have felt the pressure to be quiet. Close your eyes and let the feeling sit. Then see if you can remember a time when you were very little that you felt the same way. Very often if you do this exercise a few times, you can come up with the very first time you felt it. Thats the point where it 'got installed' if you like  See what bubbles up.

In schema therapy there are a few schemas that might fit you - Social Exclusion, Vulnerability, Subjugation, Emotional Inhibition or Mistrust / Abuse. These are quite big sets of deeply ingrained ways of seeing the world and yourself, and will be things that you may even regard as being 'part of you'. Its tough to give you more info here as I dont have the space, but I would ask - when you are in a social situation, what do you feel might happen if you speak? Is it a fear of physical harm (someone will hit you or slap you), humiliation (you will be teased or put down) or that you are not MEANT to speak (it is wrong for you to speak or express yourself)? These are three very subtley different things, it would be interesting to know which one you feel applies to you 

If you go  HERE  you can find out a little about Schema.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Very helpful I think I have always been shy but it feels like my depression is what causing me to have more insight on my beliefs eventhough I want to get rid of my depression first. One quick example of a belief I have is "Im hopeless" but its kind of confusing because if someone feels hopeless why would I think it means "I am" hopless and then thats where I have repressed feelings whether gay or not. But I have reas the anxiety and phobia workbook and has helped very little. But as hippocrates once said:"Science is knowledge and opinion breeds ignorance," everything is realted by law meaning cause and effect and to go into proving the one exact cause of sa is to have no medical proof eventhough we have pharmaceutical companies for their advertising. Finally, I dont want to imply that sa is not caused by chemical imbalance because im just denying myself but what I do want to say is that its not biologically fixed especially when it comes to social anxiety that involves human communication.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Im a bit confused :con Why does the belief "I'm hopeless" make you want to be quiet in front of people? If it was me, what I would be looking for is whats called an 'assumption' - an "If ... then ...." type statement or a rule "I must" .. "People should..." "I should not ..." etc.

So for example "If I speak in front of people I dont know then I will be attacked (or punished or whatever)" or perhaps "I must never make a fool of myself in public". These would be the cognitions that drive you to feel the need to be quiet, whereas with "Im hopeless" (a core belief) its difficult to see such a strong connection (theres a little one, but you need to get in closer to it!) 

The anxiety and phobia workbook is ok, but a bit outdated now  Gillian Butlers "Overcoming Social Anxiety and Shyness" is much much better and bery recent.

Please can you do an exercise for me? Ask yourself 

1. "what would happen if I were to speak, when I felt I should remain silent"
2. "If this thing happened, what would it mean to, or about, me?"

These are very very useful questions to answer, if its ok to ask 

Ross


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

ok, well I wouldnt speak. But what I said was not the right word or belief a more accurate word would be "Im powerless and a victim to outside world", metaphorically speaking an angry man or caged man in his own prison because of a limiting belief held with chains of course with a lot of fear.
sorry on the last post but the effect is feeling hopless but doesnt mean I am hopless the cause is not hoplessness.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Hehe

Can you answer the questions though? Sorry to push you. At the moment you are trying to figure yourself out at far too high a level to get anywhere - you need to start at the smaller level before you can make progress! You cant figure out how to crack the limiting core beliefs until you have found the rules, assumptions and so on. The questions I have put there are the standard ones used to identify your assumoptions and rules - that right there is a bit of free CBT therapy! 

If you dont want to then thats cool, obviously 

Where in Tx are you? I think the accent there rocks!!

Ross


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> Hehe
> 
> Can you answer the questions though? Sorry to push you. At the moment you are trying to figure yourself out at far too high a level to get anywhere - you need to start at the smaller level before you can make progress! You cant figure out how to crack the limiting core beliefs until you have found the rules, assumptions and so on. The questions I have put there are the standard ones used to identify your assumoptions and rules - that right there is a bit of free CBT therapy!
> 
> ...


um like, I wouldnt know what to say really except I might get hurt physically attacked. I dont know really. but thats alright, um anyways im from el paso tx near the border of Mexico the sister city of Juarez, Mx and here in el paso is one of the biggest populated cities in the us and the poorest, stupidest, most alcoholics, couch potatoed, fattests, sweatiests, but the least depressed peope.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Ha lol well being happy is the most important bit. Do you have awesomely hot food with habaneros and stuff? Man I love chili, its my favourite 

Whats important is what you said up there. You feel that you will be physically attacked. Now I'm not about to tell you that you are 100% wrong - it is true that people do get attacked, I personally have been and perhaps you have too? If the attack is very nasty, or even if you witness someone else being attacked, then that can leave a big imprint on your mind. You may well know that its not fully likely that it weill happen again, but nonetheless you still feel afraid. This is ok - its how the brain works but on the subconscious level, and the subconscious is a slippery customer.

Just at this level, the way I could guess CBT for you might go is to firstly do some cognitive work. This is to WEAKEN the assumption, before the next stage. So, you can write the assumption like this for example:

"If I speak out loud in public, then someone will physically attack me". 

It may be that you're thinking "oh hey well I know it wont really happen but I'm still scared / quiet anyway" - that's cool, this is just the first step. The next step is to start to weaken it a little. This takes the form of more questions:

1)	How many people have I seen get attacked recently in my area?

2)	How many times I have I been attacked in my life?

3)	Do I see other people speak, and not get attacked?

4)	If they do speak and are quite safe, why is it that I would be attacked, and not them?

5)	When I am in a bad mood, very often will take less to make me angry - little things get to me more, where normally I might not notice them. For example if I feel mad, then hearing someone tapping on their leg is twice as annoying, or I might be more likey to feel really angry at someone who pulls their car out in front of me. All emotions are a bit like this, in that how I feel already can influence how I react to new events. In the same way, when I am out, I FEEL very unsafe and anxious and that someone may hurt me. Is it possible that in the same way, my feelings of anxiety make me see a lot of situations as threatening and I feel that at any moment I may be attacked? When I am not feeling anxious, for example when I am at home, do I tend to see things in less threatening ways?

6) Why would speaking cause me to be attacked? What would it take to make me so mad that speaking alone made me attack someone? How many peopl would react this way, in a percentage? If its not that many, am I maybe feeling afriad for more time than I really need to?

These are some examples that it would be really cool if you decided to work through and post up the answers.

_*Next *_ would be the behavioural stage, but I wont write that down unless you are interested in following it, and perhaps do the questions above 

Ross

EDIT: In addition, there is this from the wiki. You would need to find a therapist for it I think.



> Stimulus fading
> In this technique the patient is brought into a controlled environment with someone who they are at ease with and can communicate. Gradually another person is introduced into the situation involving a number of small steps.
> 
> These steps are often done in separate stages in which case it is called the sliding-in technique, where a new person is slid into the talking group. This can take a relatively long time for the first one or two faded in people.


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## CBT Junky (Jun 6, 2007)

Listen to Ross... He's given you a l.ot of great free advice here. CBT is great but it won't help you if you are not motivated to do the work it requires :stu


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

I have nothinh against ross its just that I find it difficult to grasp at this time and plus I want or need to get an assessment for a learning disability.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Hehe I didnt take it that you did at all, Maven! Everyone is at their own unique point in recovery, and everyone has to go through certain steps and stages before they can make the nest ones. If you feel you have a learning disability, then it makes total sense to get that checked - after all even if you are seeing the awesomest therapist in the world, if you are sitting there thinking "but what if theres something thats been missed", it will be 100 x harder to make progress. In addition, things like CBT are a learning process too - so its right to understand anything that might stand in the way of it.

You are mapping out your own path and that is awesome. I really hope that SAS can be here for you to keep that momentum rolling 

Besties

Ross


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## CBT Junky (Jun 6, 2007)

Here, here :nw


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