# long term effects of long term antidepressant use?



## sparkations (Nov 26, 2003)

I was just curious as to the long term safety of antidepressants. Is there anyone here who has taken antidepressants consistently for years, and if so, did you experience any effects such as memory loss, cognitive decline, etc?


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

my memory is shot, not from drugs but from long term depression.


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## Lyndia (Feb 1, 2008)

I can tell you one thing for sure, if you stay on a anti-depressant for anything like 2yrs. don't quit the meds "cold turkey" and without a DR because the withdrawal symptoms are horrible! Don't even go there! I thought I was going to die or go crazy!


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

quiting meds cold turkey is for just that, turkeys, certainly not those with common sense.


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## |30|3 (May 7, 2007)

Just thinking about this caused me to stop using my antidepressants after three months of use. There's just so many different opinions on the use of them I don't think anyone knows for sure the long term affects, and I decided I'm better off solving the problem on my own from here.

Without a doubt they did help get me out of my slump and gave me that jump start I needed out of my depression, but I didn't see there being any way that they can help me with my SA. I'm not taking a med for any longer then I need to.

It's just my opinion that meds should be used only as long as needed, and get as much done towards solving your problem as you can while on them.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

I haven't noticed any memory loss or cognitive decline from my current antidepressants.


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## buzzkill87 (Aug 15, 2008)

I wasn't forced to stop taking them because of financial restrictions and it was pretty bad. I had strange zappy feelings in my head and generally felt horrible. I managed to go to work but I still don't know how. Socializing is rougher than it was before... Even though the meds never seemed to help a whole lot they took the edge off.

Then again, I'm not sure if it's worth taking the medication because I took it for less than 14 months and the withdrawal when I went off was so horrible I can't even describe it...


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## buzzkill87 (Aug 15, 2008)

I meant to say, I was forced to stop taking them..., not I wasn't forced.


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## hensley258 (Apr 24, 2010)

sparkations said:


> I was just curious as to the long term safety of antidepressants. Is there anyone here who has taken antidepressants consistently for years, and if so, did you experience any effects such as memory loss, cognitive decline, etc?


20 years for me now on all classes and types of antidepressants. I'm 40 years old now. Humm, I think maybe it has caused some mild nervious system damage. My hands always have a tremor and I suppose I'm not as sharp as I once was.

It's a difficult thing to say though, because my severe Depression and GAD has always had far worse effects than all the different meds I have been on through the years.

Regardless in the long term like this I am sure they have taken a good 7 years off my total life span, but considering that Suicide would have taken 45 years off my life span I suppose it's a fair trade.

Would I take them if I didn't absolutly have to? Hell no I wouldn't, but one does like to be fuctional for what life he has.

Just ask the human Lab Monkey.....That's me!


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

hensley258 said:


> 20 years for me now on all classes and types of antidepressants. I'm 40 years old now. Humm, I think maybe it has caused some mild nervious system damage. My hands always have a tremor and I suppose I'm not as sharp as I once was.
> 
> It's a difficult thing to say though, because my severe Depression and GAD has always had far worse effects than all the different meds I have been on through the years.
> 
> ...


Generally if anything, antidepressants are considered to protect the nervous system.

The problem with this whole question is that, particularly when you're asking for an individual's answer, if it's anecdotal/experience-based, it's pretty impossible to separate what long-term stuff has been a result of the drug, and which is a result of the long-term condition itself.

Depression has been shown to cause the hippocampus to atrophy, grey matter to reduce, and increase production of inflammatory proteins. Surely all of these things could cause cognitive decline, and worse, which people might wrongly attribute to the drugs they're on because they mistakenly believe that depression is simply a condition of the mind and not a physical disease.

Conversely, even SSRIs have been shown to stimulate neuronal growth in the hippocampus and reduce pro-inflammatory proteins. I would say these are very good and important long-term effects.

Withdrawal CAN suck, but people are mistakenly calling it a long-term effect when it's not, though it IS obviously caused by long-term use. Withdrawal is very short-term. It also depends on the antidepressant, as some, like Effexor and Paxil, are considered to be much worse than others (eg Prozac), which many people don't notice any withdrawals for. There are some drugs (GABA agonists like benzos and alcohol are particularly notorious) that can lead to PAWS (post-acute withdrawal syndrome) which is like a very long-term withdrawal with milder symptoms, though the sheer duration and hopeless-feeling of it is often reported by drug addicts to make it harder to stay off a drug then the more immediate and intense withdrawals. As far as I know, it's never been reported with anti-depressant use, though depression is a major symptom so I guess it could easily get confused with relapse, though if you're getting treated for depression in the first place it shouldn't make a difference. However, long-term opiate users report experiencing PAWS for months afterwards, and very long-term GABA-agonist (benzos, alcohol, barbiturates) users sometimes experience it for YEARS.

Basically, there's been enough research in adults to rule out any safety issues with long-term use of most antidepressants. There are some exceptions, but they generally have nothing to do with their function as an antidepressant. Cymbalta, for instance, has been reported to cause liver failure in a few cases and some degree of liver damage in many more. Nardil also has a certain degree of liver toxicity. Though since the liver plays the key role in processing the majority of xenobiotics (drugs and other foreign chemicals), it is not unusual that this organ in particular seems to be a target for damage. Certain antidepressants that have been taken off the market (and some that are still available as OTC supplements... OTC does not imply safety) have been known to cause heart-valve damage through a very well-documented mechanism.

In general though, long-term health, cognitive function, and life-span can be expected to IMPROVE with the use of antidepressants, particularly in adults who need it. Some of it comes from documented physical effects of antidepressants that I've mentioned above (neuroprotection, hippocampal growth, decreased pro-inflammatories), some of it comes from the fact that people with properly treated depression can usually be expected to be more active and treat themselves, their health, and their hygiene better than depressed individuals do, and a very small amount of statistical benefit could be expected to come from a reduction in suicide. Overall, anybody with depression considered to be worse than simply _mild_ should really do whatever they can to try and treat themselves (in an intelligent, rather than reckless manner of course), as at this point, potential benefits generally far outweigh the costs.


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## mud (Apr 12, 2009)

been on them about 5 years and I would say the only side effect woth mentioning is a severe lack of depression

I can live with that, but wouldn't want to without it


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

I've been taking clonazepam, narcotics and SSRIs for over 8 years. I haven't noticed anything when I go off them. Clonazepam seriously messed up my memory (school) when I was on them. But I still got through.


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## terra (Feb 12, 2007)

I've been on and off antidepressants for 6 years. I haven't noticed any negative effects. I hope they're safe long term; it's likely I'll be taking them for the rest of my life. In my case, the pros outweigh the cons.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

*antidepressants DO cause cognitive decline!*

I found this post while doing my own research in an attempt to try and explain my cognitive issues I am experiencing. Mainly, I have trouble thinking clearly, focusing, remembering, recalling recent and past evens, reasoning, etc etc etc. I can go on and on.

I have been on these toxic drugs for about 7 years. First effexor, then paxil, then zoloft, now celexa. I can honestly say that my cognitive decline is related to these drugs. Why? Because for one, I am only 27!! I should not be experiencing symptoms of am 80 year old! Likewise, these drugs make me sleep for hours and hours and am still fatigued the majority of the day. The drugs have totally changed my personality and I have become reckless, wild, and in some cases violent.

Even though the drugs have helped to SOME extent, the benefits DO NOT outweigh the risks in my case. The longer you are on them, the more serious the side effects come and the harder the drugs are to stop. They change your brain chemistry and in some cases it is almost impossible to get off them. I have tried to get off several times but failed miserably. Lord help me!

Anyone who wants to share their experience about cognitive decline, please make certain you have been on the drugs for at least a few years as this is when things started to go down hill for me. Also, research "neuron pruning" from antidepressants. You guys, these drugs are dangerous!


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

nope


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

meyaj said:


> Generally if anything, antidepressants are considered to protect the nervous system.
> 
> The problem with this whole question is that, particularly when you're asking for an individual's answer, if it's anecdotal/experience-based, it's pretty impossible to separate what long-term stuff has been a result of the drug, and which is a result of the long-term condition itself.
> 
> ...


I TOTALLY disagree with this post. There is ABSOLUTELY no evidence that shows depression drugs do ANYTHING to improve mental functioning, let alone health! On the contrary there are numerous case studies and PERSONAL EXPERIENCE such as my own which shows, without a doubt, that these drugs are EXTREMELY dangerous and TOXIC.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

SSRI's,cause,simular,damage,as,mdma,and,selective,serotonine,releasers(mdma,also,causes,more,damage,on,top,of,that)atleast,in,our,friends,the,rats.


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## ntdc (Jun 29, 2011)

prozac is over 20yrs old, surely you would hear about it in the news if there were serious long-term effects


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

ntdc said:


> prozac is over 20yrs old, surely you would hear about it in the news if there were serious long-term effects


True. I don't think you have to worry about anything. Besides, if you need them, you need them, no questions asked.


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## Bacon (Jul 4, 2010)

Totally frying and causing god knows how much damage to your Serotonin synapses.........Truth is we don't know how these SSRI's work in humans.........The SSRI train of different meds iv tried has defiantly caused damage to my brain........carefull. Memory is fried and my whole thought process is gone. Thankfully my ADHD med is making me alive for once again and i can think again. Zoloft fried my memory. But its healing slowly.........paxil is working well.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

ntdc said:


> prozac is over 20yrs old, surely you would hear about it in the news if there were serious long-term effects


There have been stories of the dangerous, debilitating effects. Actually, there have not been any real studies done on long term effects of these drugs. Likewise, just because the main stream media does not report on something DOES NOT MEAN ITS NOT FACTUAL. On the contrary, the media is known for misleading people and especially when it comes to the pharmaceutical giants. Do some research and you shall find the truth about these drugs my friend.


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## ntdc (Jun 29, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> There have been stories of the dangerous, debilitating effects. Actually, there have not been any real studies done on long term effects of these drugs. Likewise, just because the main stream media does not report on something DOES NOT MEAN ITS NOT FACTUAL. On the contrary, the media is known for misleading people and especially when it comes to the pharmaceutical giants. Do some research and you shall find the truth about these drugs my friend.


uhh these are some of the most widely prescribed drugs in america,especially zoloft and prozac that have been around for decades. something like 1 in 10 people are treated with an SSRI. theres no way to sweep that under the rug. just like with the suicide problems ..the drug co's tried to cover it up but it eventually came out and was big news. the fact is some people will have problems but even tylenol kills people on the margin. if there were major risks on the average would likely be well known.

theres no way to know any ONE persons specific risks when taking any drug, but you can guess by looking at the average


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

ntdc said:


> uhh these are some of the most widely prescribed drugs in america,especially zoloft and prozac that have been around for decades. something like 1 in 10 people are treated with an SSRI. theres no way to sweep that under the rug. just like with the suicide problems ..the drug co's tried to cover it up but it eventually came out and was big news. the fact is some people will have problems but even tylenol kills people on the margin. if there were major risks on the average would likely be well known.
> 
> theres no way to know any ONE persons specific risks when taking any drug, but you can guess by looking at the average


Because these are the most widely prescribed drugs means that they are not dangerous and toxic to the brain? Does it mean that there is NO long-term side effects? Here is the deal, countless numbers of people have suffered at the hands of these drugs. People have developed all kinds of illnesses and side effects like tardive dyskinesia, diabetes, worsening of their condition, dementia, hair loss, etc etc. I can just keep going on.

The whole purpose of this post was to explore the possibility of possible long term cognitive effects of these drugs. When you have personal experiences that say YES these drugs have caused me cognitive problems then you simply cannot argue with these people. On the other hand, you have people who say NO these drugs have not caused me cognitive problems, which is great. Perhaps there are reasons for this that we simply do not understand yet like, for example, a better detoxification system in the body. MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE ON THESE DRUGS; HONEST, UN BIASED research done by independent researches who DO NOT have a stake in these drugs or the drug companies.

The problem is that people do not realize that drugs DO NOT CURE anything. There are treatments out there that have healed, cured, and helped things such as anxiety. The problem, again, is that these folks are living in a world dominated by Big Pharma who have millions and millions at stake and who will do WHATEVER it takes to protect their assets.

JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE LONG TERM, HARMFUL EFFECTS OF ANTIDEPRESSANTS DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT THERE!


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

bruno2006 said:


> Because these are the most widely prescribed drugs means that they are not dangerous and toxic to the brain? Does it mean that there is NO long-term side effects? Here is the deal, countless numbers of people have suffered at the hands of these drugs. People have developed all kinds of illnesses and side effects like tardive dyskinesia, diabetes, worsening of their condition, dementia, hair loss, etc etc. I can just keep going on.
> 
> The whole purpose of this post was to explore the possibility of possible long term cognitive effects of these drugs. When you have personal experiences that say YES these drugs have caused me cognitive problems then you simply cannot argue with these people. On the other hand, you have people who say NO these drugs have not caused me cognitive problems, which is great. Perhaps there are reasons for this that we simply do not understand yet like, for example, a better detoxification system in the body. MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE ON THESE DRUGS; HONEST, UN BIASED research done by independent researches who DO NOT have a stake in these drugs or the drug companies.
> 
> ...


I agree with you; these drugs do not cure anything and the long term side effects are not really known but does not mean there aren't any. These big drug companies aren't out for the public but in for themselves to make profits. The sooner the public realizes it the better.


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## hiddenaway (Jan 16, 2011)

> I TOTALLY disagree with this post. There is ABSOLUTELY no evidence that shows depression drugs do ANYTHING to improve mental functioning, let alone health! On the contrary there are numerous case studies and PERSONAL EXPERIENCE such as my own which shows, without a doubt, that these drugs are EXTREMELY dangerous and TOXIC


Actually it is not a matter of opinion-- there is research support and brain imagining studies that back this up. Depression is toxic to the brain and body as well. Long-term, depression also increases endothelial inflammation, which causes stress to arteries and blood vessels, and increases the stickiness of platelets, which in turn increases the risk for blood clots and heart attacks. SSRIs have saved many people's live in prevention of suicide. I am not saying these are miracle drugs, they are far from perfect and there is some recent evidence to suggest that people who have taken SSRIs are more likely to experience a relapse in depression once they go off these meds. Personal experience is one thing, it can attest to the variability in people's experience, but it does not make it a truth for all.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

hiddenaway said:


> Actually it is not a matter of opinion-- there is research support and brain imagining studies that back this up. Depression is toxic to the brain and body as well. Long-term, depression also increases endothelial inflammation, which causes stress to arteries and blood vessels, and increases the stickiness of platelets, which in turn increases the risk for blood clots and heart attacks. SSRIs have saved many people's live in prevention of suicide. I am not saying these are miracle drugs, they are far from perfect and there is some recent evidence to suggest that people who have taken SSRIs are more likely to experience a relapse in depression once they go off these meds. Personal experience is one thing, it can attest to the variability in people's experience, but it does not make it a truth for all.


Here is what you are not realizing: depression is NOT the cause, it is a SYMPTOM of an underlying cause and DRUGS will NEVER cure that cause. In most cases the CAUSE can be found but with the health industry ruled by Big Pharma, the majority of the people are led to believe that depression or related conditions are the cause when in fact they are symptoms of underlying causes. In turn, they are blindly led by doctors and the pharmaceutical industry and are given drugs to help them and in most cases without even a full physical to rule physical diseases.

Oh, and you mentioned that, "there is some recent evidence to suggest that people who have taken SSRIs are more likely to experience a relapse in depression once they go off". Well, this is likely because these drugs make the condition worse and are, in fact, toxic to the brain. I have read articles that show how these drugs DAMAGE the serotonergic system. While these drugs can come in handy for severely depressed, suicidal people they should be only used as a stepping stone to identify and treat the underlying cause of the problem which in the words of one doctor is "not a prozac deficiency".

You clearly support the use of these toxic drugs and I hope that you educate yourself better on the dangers of them and the suffering they have caused for many many people. There are people who can benefit from these drugs, but they are not the answers to our problems of anxiety or related conditions.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

bruno2006 said:


> Here is what you are not realizing: depression is NOT the cause, it is a SYMPTOM of an underlying cause and DRUGS will NEVER cure that cause. In most cases the CAUSE can be found but with the health industry ruled by Big Pharma, the majority of the people are led to believe that depression or related conditions are the cause when in fact they are symptoms of underlying causes..


 So in most cases depression is caused by another health problem? Ive seen numerous neuropsychiatrists to have blood work done and they found once my iron levels to be low so they gave me vitamin b12 injections and instantly i felt mentallly refreshed. I feel my depression is mainly mental but I better check again to make sure. :O)


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

bruno2006 said:


> Because these are the most widely prescribed drugs means that they are not dangerous and toxic to the brain? Does it mean that there is NO long-term side effects? Here is the deal, countless numbers of people have suffered at the hands of these drugs. People have developed all kinds of illnesses and side effects like tardive dyskinesia, diabetes, worsening of their condition, dementia, hair loss, etc etc. I can just keep going on.
> 
> The whole purpose of this post was to explore the possibility of possible long term cognitive effects of these drugs. When you have personal experiences that say YES these drugs have caused me cognitive problems then you simply cannot argue with these people. On the other hand, you have people who say NO these drugs have not caused me cognitive problems, which is great. Perhaps there are reasons for this that we simply do not understand yet like, for example, a better detoxification system in the body. MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE ON THESE DRUGS; HONEST, UN BIASED research done by independent researches who DO NOT have a stake in these drugs or the drug companies.
> 
> ...


I assume you are completely oblivious to the effects of UNDER treating an illness such as depression? Those effects are far more deadly and kill people every 18 minutes in the United States alone.


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## Dpbthgt (Jul 14, 2011)

There may be a cause for depression, I'm not sure, but what about anxiety? I've battled anxiety since I was a child and it has limited my life, negatively impacted it, and ruined a chance at many choices and possibilities. Believe me if someone came to me or my doctor said I can cure you of your anxiety believe me I would do it in an instant. But, until that happens I can either live a suboptimal life or try and mask the problem with medication. I don't know what else to do.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> So in most cases depression is caused by another health problem? Ive seen numerous neuropsychiatrists to have blood work done and they found once my iron levels to be low so they gave me vitamin b12 injections and instantly i felt mentallly refreshed. I feel my depression is mainly mental but I better check again to make sure. :O)


Absolutely! I would recommend that you read Dr. Larson's book "Depression Free Naturally". This book lays out the root causes of mental health issues as well as some of the dangers of psychiatric. Drugs.

Its just so much easier to give a drug to someone who is suffering from a problem like anxiety. There is no doubt that finding the root cause can be difficult, but once you find it you can be cured and the problem corrected. The drugs will never solve the problem.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Dpbthgt said:


> There may be a cause for depression, I'm not sure, but what about anxiety? I've battled anxiety since I was a child and it has limited my life, negatively impacted it, and ruined a chance at many choices and possibilities. Believe me if someone came to me or my doctor said I can cure you of your anxiety believe me I would do it in an instant. But, until that happens I can either live a suboptimal life or try and mask the problem with medication. I don't know what else to do.


Anxiety on its own is not life threatening by the definition that it can cause death, however it can VASTLY decrease a person's QUALITY of life. Western medicine does not always seek to CURE disease but to increase someone's quality of life to that of a healthy person.


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## ntdc (Jun 29, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Because these are the most widely prescribed drugs means that they are not dangerous and toxic to the brain? Does it mean that there is NO long-term side effects? Here is the deal, countless numbers of people have suffered at the hands of these drugs. People have developed all kinds of illnesses and side effects like tardive dyskinesia, diabetes, worsening of their condition, dementia, hair loss, etc etc. I can just keep going on.


no you seem to miss the point, because the medications are widely prescribed this means doctors see a lot of patients on these medications. in some cases like psychiatry a very high % of a doctors patients will be taking these medications, in many cases for a long stretch of time (years, decades). if there were a high chance of side effects someone would notice and publish a paper. in fact even minor side effects like bruxism from ssri were published based on a small # of case reports many years ago. No one can say for sure how a particular medication will react with you, maybe there is some chance of it, but on the average its not been shown theres a serious problem. Obviously a healthy person should not be taking these medications, but if you are ill like cant function in society, considering blowing your head off, etc.. then taking a risk of some side effects is probably better than the alternative. This is the case with basically any medication.


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## ntdc (Jun 29, 2011)

Dpbthgt said:


> There may be a cause for depression, I'm not sure, but what about anxiety? I've battled anxiety since I was a child and it has limited my life, negatively impacted it, and ruined a chance at many choices and possibilities. Believe me if someone came to me or my doctor said I can cure you of your anxiety believe me I would do it in an instant. But, until that happens I can either live a suboptimal life or try and mask the problem with medication. I don't know what else to do.


personally i believe with therapy a person can get better and eventually they wont need medication but the medication can help level you out so you are prepared to take therapy seriously.


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## ntdc (Jun 29, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Absolutely! I would recommend that you read Dr. Larson's book "Depression Free Naturally". This book lays out the root causes of mental health issues as well as some of the dangers of psychiatric. Drugs.
> 
> Its just so much easier to give a drug to someone who is suffering from a problem like anxiety. There is no doubt that finding the root cause can be difficult, but once you find it you can be cured and the problem corrected. The drugs will never solve the problem.


http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/donsbachuniv.html


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## ntdc (Jun 29, 2011)

btw if your psychiatrist writes you a script before doing a blood test for thyroid, vitamin levels,etc.. then fire him go see another doctor.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

ntdc said:


> http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/donsbachuniv.html


I don't get it. Dr. Joan Larsen did not get her degree from here. Further, take a closer look at this psychiatrist. In response to you link, I counter with another link that reveals some truth to Mr. Quackwatch.

http://www.raysahelian.com/quackwatch.html


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Dr House said:


> I assume you are completely oblivious to the effects of UNDER treating an illness such as depression? Those effects are far more deadly and kill people every 18 minutes in the United States alone.


First off, let me remind you that I am on this website because I am a long term sufferer of anxiety and depression. So, don't think that for a minute I am unfamiliar with these issues!

Secondly, what you say about under treatment is correct in that it, obviously, can lead to further problems and even suicide. But the whole thing about 18 minutes, what is that all about and where did you get that figure from? What exactly are these people dying from?

Finally, just because someone is suffering from a mental health issue does not automatically mean they need a drug. The root cause needs to be found, not covered up with a drug. Often times, you take one drug and it leads to another problem to which another drugs is given and the cycle continues. I see you are on many drugs, one of them being paxil. I used to take paxil and I gained so much weight I had to be taken off because my cholesterol skyrocketed, I had NO libido, and it literally made me crave alcohol, among other nasty side effects.

Good luck and take care my friend.


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## Xande (Jul 18, 2011)

Well if it wasn't for my anti-depressant medicine, I probably wouldn't be alive right now, so I'm quite appreciative of them, even if I might have some long term side effects in the future, atleast I'm currently alive, even though sometimes I feel life isn't all that...


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Xande said:


> Well if it wasn't for my anti-depressant medicine, I probably wouldn't be alive right now, so I'm quite appreciative of them, even if I might have some long term side effects in the future, atleast I'm currently alive, even though sometimes I feel life isn't all that...


I agree that antidepressants can be used in such situations as yours and as long as you are happy then that is all that matters. On the other hand, please realize that there is an underlying cause for your symptoms and this cause can be found by a good, holistic doctor. Granted, this may be difficult to find, but, nevertheless, it can be done. There are numerous reasons why a person will feel depressed or anxious and the tricky part is finding the root cause, not covering it up with drugs because this will never solve anything. There are many great places that specialize in finding root causes of illnesses such as Pfeiffer Treatment Center, Dr. Brad Weeks, The Tahoma Clinic, etc.

One good example is that of a woman who was having severe panic attacks. Even though the celexa worked, the side effects became very bothersome and she knew she could not ever have a family while on these drugs (a more recent report links antidepressants to Autism). It turned out that she had a condition that main stream doctors hardly even know about, its called pyroluria. She was almost completely deficient in zinc and B6 and the panic attacks were her body's way of saying "help me something is wrong". She is now off the drugs and has a little son.


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## Xande (Jul 18, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> I agree that antidepressants can be used in such situations as yours and as long as you are happy then that is all that matters. On the other hand, please realize that there is an underlying cause for your symptoms and this cause can be found by a good, holistic doctor. Granted, this may be difficult to find, but, nevertheless, it can be done.


Thanks for your advice, I will keep this in mind even though it may take a lot of effort to find the underlying causes. I appreciate you not taking an "all meds are evil" kind of stance, but actually explaining the message you're truly trying to get across.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Xande said:


> Thanks for your advice, I will keep this in mind even though it may take a lot of effort to find the underlying causes. I appreciate you not taking an "all meds are evil" kind of stance, but actually explaining the message you're truly trying to get across.


Hey xande,

I believe that anything that can help people has a place in medicine.

A lot of people, including doctors, really do not understand the hell people with anxiety and depression go through. I am all about healing and living a healthy, productive life in society. Its true that some folks are extremely happy with their antidepressant and their life is content. However, in my case and in the case of many people, we began to see the harm of the drugs we were taking and that there truly was another way. So, I began to do research and seek truth, whatever it was. I found that in many cases drugs could and should be discontinued and the underlying cause explored. Even simple deficiencies such has omega 3 or 6 can cause severe depression and anxiety, but do psychiatrists test for these things before prescribing you the newest drug?

I wish you luck on your journey of healing. Please keep an open mind when it comes to alternative forms of treatment and let me know if you need any advice or resources.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Dpbthgt said:


> There may be a cause for depression, I'm not sure, but what about anxiety? I've battled anxiety since I was a child and it has limited my life, negatively impacted it, and ruined a chance at many choices and possibilities. Believe me if someone came to me or my doctor said I can cure you of your anxiety believe me I would do it in an instant. But, until that happens I can either live a suboptimal life or try and mask the problem with medication. I don't know what else to do.


Hey Dpbthgt,

may I ask what all you have done to try and find the root cause of your suffering? Have you done any tests or perhaps consulted with a holistic doctor? There are some really great books out there that can get you headed in the right direction. Let me know if you need help with anything as I would enjoy sharing my experiences with you.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

bruno2006 said:


> Even simple deficiencies such has omega 3 or 6 can cause severe depression and anxiety, but do psychiatrists test for these things before prescribing you the newest drug?.


 I wish all psychiatrists would do blood testing for nutritional deficiencies or other underlying illnessses. My neuropsychiatrist was the only one that would do such testing as my current psychiatrist traditonally does psychoanalysis and medication management.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> I wish all psychiatrists would do blood testing for nutritional deficiencies or other underlying illnessses. My neuropsychiatrist was the only one that would do such testing as my current psychiatrist traditonally does psychoanalysis and medication management.


I agree. They should have a standard for anyone walking in the door you know? But here is the problem, can you imagine how much money they would lose? Big Pharma does not like that idea and I believe this is one reason why almost all psychiatrists never test for such things: money money. Keeping people on drugs and "managing" the problem pays much more than fixing the problem.


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

These arguments are always the same. Nobody really has a clue.

Some of the more extreme fears of antidepressants could be anxiety-based.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

kev said:


> These arguments are always the same. Nobody really has a clue.
> 
> Some of the more extreme fears of antidepressants could be anxiety-based.


Actually these arguments are not always the same. Go look through them and you will see both sides have brought up good points. And the whole thing about "no clue", yea just not going to fly sorry.

Anxiety based? Yea I will give you that. This is quite common I think, but, on the other hand, what about the ones who developed this anxiety or fear of antidepressants AFTER being harmed by them?


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## boostinggtir (May 27, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> I wish all psychiatrists would do blood testing for nutritional deficiencies or other underlying illnessses. My neuropsychiatrist was the only one that would do such testing as my current psychiatrist traditonally does psychoanalysis and medication management.


Why the **** would they do that??? when they can just throw some random drug at you during ur 5 minute consultation...??? realtalk lol

Nardil has dramatically improved my cognitive thinking.. Is there any info regarding long term effects of Nardil? Seems to make me very flatulent (aka gass) lol

In terms of the liver issue, I havn't had any tests done since I started taking. Though there are supplements out there that dramatically increase the livers ability. So any increased enzyme elevation from nardil stress, could probably be easily corrected. (probably) Will have my tests done in a week or so, so I'm not just talking out my ***. hahah Gota walk the walk:sus:clap


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

boostinggtir said:


> Why the **** would they do that??? when they can just throw some random drug at you during ur 5 minute consultation...??? realtalk lol
> 
> Nardil has dramatically improved my cognitive thinking.. Is there any info regarding long term effects of Nardil? Seems to make me very flatulent (aka gass) lol
> 
> In terms of the liver issue, I havn't had any tests done since I started taking. Though there are supplements out there that dramatically increase the livers ability. So any increased enzyme elevation from nardil stress, could probably be easily corrected. (probably) Will have my tests done in a week or so, so I'm not just talking out my ***. hahah Gota walk the walk:sus:clap


Interesting post in regards to the Nardil and cognitive thinking (and I will definitely NOT disagree with you about throwing a drug at someone lol). If I am not mistaken, it is an MAOI correct? My experience and research has to do with SSRIs and atypical antidepressants and their cognitive effects. And yes, in terms of liver I would monitor that because that is one thing I read about Nardil; it can cause liver issues. Anyways have a good one


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

ntdc said:


> no you seem to miss the point, because the medications are widely prescribed this means doctors see a lot of patients on these medications. in some cases like psychiatry a very high % of a doctors patients will be taking these medications, in many cases for a long stretch of time (years, decades). if there were a high chance of side effects someone would notice and publish a paper. in fact even minor side effects like bruxism from ssri were published based on a small # of case reports many years ago. No one can say for sure how a particular medication will react with you, maybe there is some chance of it, but on the average its not been shown theres a serious problem. Obviously a healthy person should not be taking these medications, but if you are ill like cant function in society, considering blowing your head off, etc.. then taking a risk of some side effects is probably better than the alternative. This is the case with basically any medication.


Your argument is very logical and I see where you are coming from. On the other hand, as opposed to acute, horrible side effects such as suicide or violence, negative cognitive effects are much more subtle and not easily noticeable by doctors or patients. Often times, it takes years and years of being on the drug before one starts having noticeable negative cognitive side effects. Moreover, you do not take a drug one day and then next week have cognitive problems, rather, the problems creep up on you. Likewise, with most antidepressants being prescribed by primary care doctors, there is a small chance that one day, say after 10 years on a drug, a doctor concludes that the patient is experiencing long term cognitive effects from the drugs. This is just not going to happen. Main stream doctors are trained to prescribe drugs for everything. If someone complains about cognitive problems on a drug, the doctors are likely going to increase the dose or try another drug, not go write a paper about it. So, with this in mind, one can easily see that even though the drugs have been around for a while, the negative cognitive side effects can still happen and do happen.

I do agree with you, as mentioned before, that taking the drug for severe situations is, obviously, not only logical but also probably the best immediate solution to the problem. However, what many people fail to realize is that depression, anxiety, and other related conditions are almost always the result of an underlying cause that needs to be corrected and not covered up with drugs that have proven to be toxic. Simply typing in a search engine "nutritional causes of mental illness" yields a vast number of reasons why someone may be suffering from a mental health issue.


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

I've been taking paxil for 6 years, no problems here. And my job is basically using my brain and I think I'm smarter than ever lol.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Cuauhtemoc said:


> I've been taking paxil for 6 years, no problems here. And my job is basically using my brain and I think I'm smarter than ever lol.


That is great news. Unfortunately many people are not as lucky as you are. That drug even has its own website dedicated to all the people who are suffering from withdrawal or had to stop because of the side effects. Have you heard of paxilprogress.org (or .com can't remember which one it is)? Pretty interesting site if you ever need help. People there have termed the drug "paxhell".

I was on that drug for I think over two years. It made me gain way too much weight and I had absolutely no libido at all. I also craved alcohol constantly and would go on binges which never happened prior to taking the drug. Now that I don't take it, I am back in shape and no longer crave alcohol


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

I didn't have that, my libido is just fine, I just take longer to reach an orgasm.
I was never really into alcohol, but paxil makes alcohol stronger, but that's not really bad either.

I have a theory, paxil must be taken alone, do not use it with benzos, propanolol and especially alcohol or illegal drugs. I read tons of things in relation to this and in almost all cases people seem to combine various different drugs with SSRI's. The time I took some clonazepam I felt really bad the next day, so I never took it again and I feel just fine.

About the alcohol binges, I gotta say that after starting paxil I felt free for the first time in my life, so I wanted to try different things, you know, from the shy nerd I became the guy who went to all parties, so that may be your case, but I could use my rationality and tell myself alcohol is bad and I do not drink it.

And no weight gain here, but I would certainly appreciate it lol.


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## boostinggtir (May 27, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Interesting post in regards to the Nardil and cognitive thinking (and I will definitely NOT disagree with you about throwing a drug at someone lol). If I am not mistaken, it is an MAOI correct? My experience and research has to do with SSRIs and atypical antidepressants and their cognitive effects. And yes, in terms of liver I would monitor that because that is one thing I read about Nardil; it can cause liver issues. Anyways have a good one


Yes it is a MAOI.. Amazing drug for me at this point. This drug was my last ditch effort in terms of been able to have a capacity to enjoy anything. I found the recommendation from this website. I mean who wouldn't wont more dopamine and gaba ect.. with out feeling cracked out. lol Takes wile to get the real effect. (am just starting to get after 6 week) If you or anyone out there has tried a bunch of various ineffective meds, I strongly recommend. It's sad that such an effective drug is so far from main stream an never used. My chemist didn't even stock it till I asked the to. I love you nardil.:clap (warning: can an will cause no sleep) lol joke,... kinda:teeth


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

bruno2006 said:


> Actually these arguments are not always the same. Go look through them and you will see both sides have brought up good points. And the whole thing about "no clue", yea just not going to fly sorry.
> 
> Anxiety based? Yea I will give you that. This is quite common I think, but, on the other hand, what about the ones who developed this anxiety or fear of antidepressants AFTER being harmed by them?


I was speaking philosophically. Each person has their own view, but it has hard to come up with a universal view that discounts all the confounding factors. To analyze the brain, one must use the brain, which creates a lot of complications. It's a bit of a paradox.

How does one know without a doubt that antidepressants have harmed them? Anecdotal - which is certainly valid to the individual. But an outsider has trouble determining the validity of their statement with any scientific rigor.


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

I think one of the problems with these reviews is that most people that take antidepressants are obviously people with mental problems, not crazy, but with depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder...
So these are not really the most reliable reviewers.

For example, depression causes a decrease in libido, guy takes ssri for 1 week, says he got diminished libido, correlates it with the drug and blames it on the drug. While in fact it was the depression that caused this.
Then he drops the medicine, says he got even more depressed because of this(while in fact it was just the normal depression) and posts a topic saying how SSRI's are the devil and nobody should take them.

Tons of sufferers also tend to abuse substances, it's normal, it makes you feel happier.
Then they start taking antidepressant, take some benzos for help, drink a lot, mix it with adderall and then complain how it didn't work.


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## boostinggtir (May 27, 2011)

Cuauhtemoc said:


> I think one of the problems with these reviews is that most people that take antidepressants are obviously people with mental problems, not crazy, but with depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder...
> So these are not really the most reliable reviewers.
> 
> For example, depression causes a decrease in libido, guy takes ssri for 1 week, says he got diminished libido, correlates it with the drug and blames it on the drug While in fact it was the depression that caused this.
> ...


*Agreed. Many people don't even give the meds a workable format from the start due to substance abuse ect...*


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Cuauhtemoc said:


> I think one of the problems with these reviews is that most people that take antidepressants are obviously people with mental problems, not crazy, but with depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder...
> So these are not really the most reliable reviewers.
> 
> For example, depression causes a decrease in libido, guy takes ssri for 1 week, says he got diminished libido, correlates it with the drug and blames it on the drug. While in fact it was the depression that caused this.
> ...


I can see where you are coming from when you talk about reliable views. On the other hand, it also depends on what condition you have and how severe you are suffering. Like me, I have anxiety and in no way is my review of a drug less accurate than anyone else's. If I take a drug and it helps, then it helps. If it causes bad side effects, then it causes bad side effects. At the same time, we are the ones taking the drugs so how on earth are they going to get other reviews? Having anxiety or depression DOES NOT make you delusional or stupid, rather you simply feel like sh***.

Moving on, your second part is not a very logical or convincing argument. Your assuming, again, that because this person has a mental health issue he is somehow too stupid to realize things. It makes little since what you say. How can a person have no libido, take a drug, and then all of a sudden say "it was the drug that caused no libido."?:um Unless he is retarded, obviously he is going to have some since of himself and how his body is functioning. It seems as though your perspective of things is very limited. I have always had a great sex drive prior to antidepressants. Once I took paxil, I literally was unable to have an orgasm and gained so much weight. Is this some kind of difficult problem to solve to where I may have not accurately related the side effects to the drug? I think not. Paxil is well known for this and if it is not happening to you then be happy.

I too also agree with what you say about people suffering and using other substances, well somewhat anyway. But remember this, doctors are the ones who put you on five different drugs. Even though the drugs come from a pharmacy, it does not mean they are somehow safe or not toxic to your body. It is the same with illegal street drugs, they too have similar effects of prescription drugs. What it boils down to is this: a drug is a drug and mixing any kind of drugs can have good and bad effects on the user.

Your point of view of things seems to be a little inaccurate in that you assume the perception of people using antidepressants is unreliable and false when in fact this is probably only the case on a very small scale. You act like people do not want to feel better and are constantly looking for ways to discredit the drug they are taking. The majority of people are not as dumb as one would think and just because they are dealing with a mental health issue does not make their outlook on a drug bogus. Lastly, keep in mind that a drug will NEVER cure your mental health issue and you should focus on finding the underlying cause. Depression and anxiety are ALMOST always the result of an underlying cause and drugs will only cover things up:no.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

kev said:


> I was speaking philosophically. Each person has their own view, but it has hard to come up with a universal view that discounts all the confounding factors. To analyze the brain, one must use the brain, which creates a lot of complications. It's a bit of a paradox.
> 
> How does one know without a doubt that antidepressants have harmed them? Anecdotal - which is certainly valid to the individual. But an outsider has trouble determining the validity of their statement with any scientific rigor.


I agree with you when you say each person has his own view and a universal view is hard to come up with. No matter what, there will always be conflicting view points on a matter such as the long term effects of antidepressants.

Granted, it can be pretty complicated to know without a doubt that the depression drugs the person is taking are without a doubt the causing harm. Who says it must only be anecdotal? Does it mean that just because it may be difficult to uncover the reason why you are having symptoms such as cognitive decline that you cannot uncover the probable culprit using science and reasoning? Its called investigating and using the process of the scientific method and logic. If, for example, you are a young male who is on antidepressants and you suddenly realize that your short term memory is fried, you can surely figure it out alone or with the help of others. You do research. You ask experts. You look at all possible factors. Eventually you will begin to hone in on a possible cause.

With anything that involves investigation, there is always going to be a chance that your conclusion is not correct. The whole point is to come to a reasonable conclusion. Welcome to science....


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## hiddenaway (Jan 16, 2011)

> You clearly support the use of these toxic drugs and I hope that you educate yourself better on the dangers of them and the suffering they have caused for many many people. There are people who can benefit from these drugs, but they are not the answers to our problems of anxiety or related conditions.
> 
> 
> > There are likely many underlying causes for depression that we are not aware of yet. I believe that depression is like cancer in that there are likely numerous pathways that cause it. SSRIs do not cure depression, but for many they offer relief. But there is no research evidence to show that depression is simply caused by some vitamin deficiency or other like you seem to suggest. Plenty of research has poured into that topic and it has not been supported. There are minor effects for things like omega-3s but this is not more a cure than anything else. To write off SSRIs are some sort of "Big Pharma" conspiracy is just silly. For many people SSRIs offer relief from a devastating and debilitating illness, for many it has saved their lives. I long for the day when we can uncover the true causes of depression and find true cures for the disease, when we can abandon SSRIs for something that truly remedies and erases the disease of depression. But that is not right now-- we know very little about it. SSRIs are the most effective treatment, in combination with therapy, that we have at the moment. I battled for many years with that same argument you use, that depression should be treated "naturally" and I was somehow weak willed to submit to use of SSRIs to relieve my depression. That argument hurts people and prevents them from getting the much needed treatment they need. I am all for finding alternative therapies-- if it works for you more power to you, but don't knock those of us who have experimented with every holistic, herbal, alternative treatment out there only to find no relief except through an SSRI.


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## hiddenaway (Jan 16, 2011)

> I think one of the problems with these reviews is that most people that take antidepressants are obviously people with mental problems, not crazy, but with depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder...
> So these are not really the most reliable reviewers.


These are the only reviewers you can get-- the people that need and take the drug. Who else can gauge the usefulness of the drug? I get your point that longer use is needed often to determine what side effects may dissipate. It is true that some symptoms may be the easing of the depression. But in testing with hundreds of study participants things like loss of libido and weight gain are very commonly observed. The problem with many drug studies are that they last for 18 months _at most_. People who are on these drugs for 3, 5, 10 plus years experience different and longer-term side effects that are conveniently left out of published research. Whenever I want to know the true experience of taking one of these drugs I always turn to depression/anxiety boards for others who have taken the drug. I find these people to be incredibly more informative than any doctor-- people who have actually taken the drug.


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## ntdc (Jun 29, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Your argument is very logical and I see where you are coming from. On the other hand, as opposed to acute, horrible side effects such as suicide or violence, negative cognitive effects are much more subtle and not easily noticeable by doctors or patients. Often times, it takes years and years of being on the drug before one starts having noticeable negative cognitive side effects. Moreover, you do not take a drug one day and then next week have cognitive problems, rather, the problems creep up on you. Likewise, with most antidepressants being prescribed by primary care doctors, there is a small chance that one day, say after 10 years on a drug, a doctor concludes that the patient is experiencing long term cognitive effects from the drugs. This is just not going to happen. Main stream doctors are trained to prescribe drugs for everything. If someone complains about cognitive problems on a drug, the doctors are likely going to increase the dose or try another drug, not go write a paper about it. So, with this in mind, one can easily see that even though the drugs have been around for a while, the negative cognitive side effects can still happen and do happen.
> 
> I do agree with you, as mentioned before, that taking the drug for severe situations is, obviously, not only logical but also probably the best immediate solution to the problem. However, what many people fail to realize is that depression, anxiety, and other related conditions are almost always the result of an underlying cause that needs to be corrected and not covered up with drugs that have proven to be toxic. Simply typing in a search engine "nutritional causes of mental illness" yields a vast number of reasons why someone may be suffering from a mental health issue.


you are obviously pushing some kind of agenda, so im going to have to end our discussion here. however the effects of SSRI on cognition is an area which has been studied, there are numerous papers on it that you can find if you have access to a university library or read the abstracts on google, most have mild impairment on certain types of memory, however brain MRIs have shown these drugs actually promote the growth of nerve cells in the brain.

as i said earlier , a good psychiatrist will order appropriate medical testing or request a copy of your most recent bloodwork from your PCP before prescribing a medication. I have been to several, they all did that. I would not trust one who did not do such a simple routine check.

again, these drugs have been around for many years, were this a common problem we'd likely see an epidemic of these types of problems, given 1/10 americans take or have taken these drugs. Thats not to say its impossible, just on the average, its not a salient problem.


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## ntdc (Jun 29, 2011)

Cuauhtemoc said:


> I think one of the problems with these reviews is that most people that take antidepressants are obviously people with mental problems, not crazy, but with depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder...
> So these are not really the most reliable reviewers.
> 
> For example, depression causes a decrease in libido, guy takes ssri for 1 week, says he got diminished libido, correlates it with the drug and blames it on the drug. While in fact it was the depression that caused this.
> ...


yes thats why the drugs are tested on healthy volunteers to gauge for side effects before they are allowed to be sold. you can pretty much be sure anything it says on the package insert (such as decreased libido) is a real concern.


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## ntdc (Jun 29, 2011)

kev said:


> How does one know without a doubt that antidepressants have harmed them? Anecdotal - which is certainly valid to the individual. But an outsider has trouble determining the validity of their statement with any scientific rigor.


uhhh yeah i'm going to have to disagree.

there are plenty of cognitive tests along with MRIs that can show conclusive evidence of brain damage!


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

ntdc said:


> uhhh yeah i'm going to have to disagree.
> 
> there are plenty of cognitive tests along with MRIs that can show conclusive evidence of brain damage!


Amen to that!


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## lissa530 (Oct 29, 2009)

sparkations said:


> I was just curious as to the long term safety of antidepressants. Is there anyone here who has taken antidepressants consistently for years, and if so, did you experience any effects such as memory loss, cognitive decline, etc?


No I haven't noticed any negative effects from my long term use of anti depressants.


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## CD700 (Apr 22, 2010)

Honestly If a doctor said take this med and it will help your Social phobia and depression but will kill me in 10 years then i would happily swallow it
Social Phobia is the worst mental illness one can have because it effects EVERY part of your life


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

sparkations said:


> I was just curious as to the long term safety of antidepressants. Is there anyone here who has taken antidepressants consistently for years, and if so, did you experience any effects such as memory loss, cognitive decline, etc?


 Like the op is going to answer anytime soon... the antidepressants ive taken didnt do jack just the lexapro giving me brain zaps.


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

blakeyz said:


> Social Phobia is the worst mental illness one can have because it effects EVERY part of your life


Given similar severity levels, I'd rather have SAD than Schizophrenia, Bipolar, Depression and some of the Personality Disorders.


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## CD700 (Apr 22, 2010)

Kon said:


> Given similar severity levels, I'd rather have SAD than Schizophrenia, Bipolar, Depression and some of the Personality Disorders.


Schizophrenia at least is entertaining 
Make ya own friends up 
Personality disorders are maby worse because they are untreatable


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

hiddenaway said:


> There are likely many underlying causes for depression that we are not aware of yet. I believe that depression is like cancer in that there are likely numerous pathways that cause it. SSRIs do not cure depression, but for many they offer relief. But there is no research evidence to show that depression is simply caused by some vitamin deficiency or other like you seem to suggest. Plenty of research has poured into that topic and it has not been supported. There are minor effects for things like omega-3s but this is not more a cure than anything else. To write off SSRIs are some sort of "Big Pharma" conspiracy is just silly. For many people SSRIs offer relief from a devastating and debilitating illness, for many it has saved their lives. I long for the day when we can uncover the true causes of depression and find true cures for the disease, when we can abandon SSRIs for something that truly remedies and erases the disease of depression. But that is not right now-- we know very little about it. SSRIs are the most effective treatment, in combination with therapy, that we have at the moment. I battled for many years with that same argument you use, that depression should be treated "naturally" and I was somehow weak willed to submit to use of SSRIs to relieve my depression. That argument hurts people and prevents them from getting the much needed treatment they need. I am all for finding alternative therapies-- if it works for you more power to you, but don't knock those of us who have experimented with every holistic, herbal, alternative treatment out there only to find no relief except through an SSRI.


I think you're spot on, but I will add something, **** holistic therapy.
That is the new disease of the 21th century, SSRI's may not be perfect, but atleast they have some study backing it up, while all this idea that taking some plant and meditating may help with SA/Depression is just something made up by some hippie to make money.
They are probably the same people that write these conspiracy theories that the government and the big companies are trying to manipulate us all through some crazy scheme.
I tried only 1 drug, Paxil and it worked like a charm for me.
Try it too, if it doesn't work, try klonopin, benzos, MAOI's, anything, one day you will find what suits you, or not, but at least you tried.
Life is unfair sometimes, not everybody can be happy and disease free, but trying to say drugs are bad because of that is a lie.
Medical science is evolving everyday it doesn't have the answer to all the problems that affect humankind and making money is part of the business but at least it's science, it's backed by peer reviewed studies, controlled trials, not some pseudoscience.


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## CD700 (Apr 22, 2010)

Imipramine has the best evidence of efficiency out of all the meds
Just check out its history
The prozac generation is full of efficiency study's funded by themselves LOL
and even then it rates a pin **** above placebo


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

to answer the question posed in the thread title: improved quality and duration of life


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

hiddenaway said:


> > You clearly support the use of these toxic drugs and I hope that you educate yourself better on the dangers of them and the suffering they have caused for many many people. There are people who can benefit from these drugs, but they are not the answers to our problems of anxiety or related conditions.
> >
> >
> > > There are likely many underlying causes for depression that we are not aware of yet. I believe that depression is like cancer in that there are likely numerous pathways that cause it. SSRIs do not cure depression, but for many they offer relief. But there is no research evidence to show that depression is simply caused by some vitamin deficiency or other like you seem to suggest. Plenty of research has poured into that topic and it has not been supported. There are minor effects for things like omega-3s but this is not more a cure than anything else. To write off SSRIs are some sort of "Big Pharma" conspiracy is just silly. For many people SSRIs offer relief from a devastating and debilitating illness, for many it has saved their lives. I long for the day when we can uncover the true causes of depression and find true cures for the disease, when we can abandon SSRIs for something that truly remedies and erases the disease of depression. But that is not right now-- we know very little about it. SSRIs are the most effective treatment, in combination with therapy, that we have at the moment. I battled for many years with that same argument you use, that depression should be treated "naturally" and I was somehow weak willed to submit to use of SSRIs to relieve my depression. That argument hurts people and prevents them from getting the much needed treatment they need. I am all for finding alternative therapies-- if it works for you more power to you, but don't knock those of us who have experimented with every holistic, herbal, alternative treatment out there only to find no relief except through an SSRI.
> > ...


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

That's why I like neuropsychiatry better because there more.concerned about the biology of the nervous system


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> That's why I like neuropsychiatry better because there more.concerned about the biology of the nervous system


How can I go about finding one of these? You have got me very interested lol.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

bruno2006 said:


> How can I go about finding one of these? You have got me very interested lol.


Google? Lol I wish I knew I have a neuropsychiatry and neurology clinic that has them they do all kinds of physical and psychological testing.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Google? Lol I wish I knew I have a neuropsychiatry and neurology clinic that has them they do all kinds of physical and psychological testing.


Very interesting. I will google and see. Have you ever heard of Dr. Brad Weeks? He is a famous psychiatrist/neurologist I have been interested in. Guess that is a neuropyschiatrist? He is supposed to be able to help most mental health conditions without drugs. Thanks for your feedback!


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

bruno2006 said:


> Very interesting. I will google and see. Have you ever heard of Dr. Brad Weeks? He is a famous psychiatrist/neurologist I have been interested in. Guess that is a neuropyschiatrist? He is supposed to be able to help most mental health conditions without drugs. Thanks for your feedback!


no problem
. I've never heard of that doctor but since he's board certified in psychiatry and neurology I don't know if that would be a branch of neuro psychiatry that you're looking for Wikipedia has a good info in neuro psychiatry I just can't find the link at the moment because I'm on my phone good luck in finding one


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## g03s (Aug 7, 2011)

This thread just made me even more depressed. I had put a lot of faith into the medication. I've tried everything else and it never worked.

For me, I think i'm okay with COVERING UP the SYMPTOMS instead of "CURING" it. 

I never used to feel regularly depressed or anxious, but the symptoms always came up. Sometimes i'd wake up for school and not be able to get up because I felt so heavy and my legs felt weak. On the bus to school I used to get stomach aches and in general be really nervous walking around school.

I have met doctors in my time who asked for a blood test first before prescribing medication. I talked to a doctor recently who explained that depression is a disease so medication must be taken for however long it is needed.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

g03s said:


> This thread just made me even more depressed. I had put a lot of faith into the medication. I've tried everything else and it never worked.
> 
> For me, I think i'm okay with COVERING UP the SYMPTOMS instead of "CURING" it.
> 
> ...


What exactly do you mean by "everything else"? In my opinion, if you are satisfied with covering it up then more power to you. As long as you are happy then that's all that matters you know?

Most doctors say that depression is a disease when in fact it is a symptom of an underlying cause. A good idea would be to get some relief with drugs and do some research on finding the underlying cause. www.alternativementalhealth.com is a great place to find mental health practitioners in your area who can help you with that. Good luck


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## hiddenaway (Jan 16, 2011)

> Next, your claim that, "there is no research evidence to show that depression is simply caused by some vitamin deficiency or other like you seem to suggest" is not only false, its actually kind of ridiculous. Unless you are doing your research in the child's section of the library, then this is simply a false claim on your part.


Actually I have a graduate degree in psychology and am pretty well versed on psychological and psychiatric research. A meta-analysis of all the treatments for depression showed that it is the combination of therapy plus medication that has the best outcomes for depression. Often depression is so crippling that insight into one's problems is not possible until the symptoms have abated a bit. Then this is where therapy takes over to help uncover some of the root causes of depression and the introduction of coping mechanisms.



> This condition causes a person to become deficient in vitamin B and zinc. It is a genetic condition that involves the blood. Further, certain things like high histamine, high copper, and even a chemical sensitivity can all be at the bottom of a mental health issue.


Is there some sort of actual scientific research to suggest this? If this was the ultimate magical cause of depression for all people then it would be much more common knowledge. There are a few indicates that issues like hypothyriodism can contribute to depression for some, but as far as vitamin B, zinc, histamines and copper I don't know that there has been any wide-spread research to suggest this. If so please point to a scientific, peer-reviewed journal where it has been published.

As far as alternative therapies-- I have tried St. John's wort, Sam-e, curcumin, kava kava, among many others. I meditate regularly, I exercise regularly, I have changed by diet, I have had my blood tested for deficiencies-- all clear. I have aligned my chakras and done yoga and pranayama, mindfulness therapy, CBT, even crap like EFT. All to little avail. I still incorporate these elements into my life, but find that they could not defeat my depression. In my mind the cause of my depression is hereditary causing biological imbalances in my brain. I am not a lover of SSRIs, but I have found these to be the only thing that works.


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## g03s (Aug 7, 2011)

Thank you for that post hiddenaway.

I am trying to see a specialist/psychiatrist soon to tackle my depression and anxiety issues. I am tired of seeing my GP who doesn't seem to do much except write another script for my medication.

I have a few months left before I begin school so I will be taking medication until then. What kind of therapy or counselling would you suggest while on medication?


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

This underlying cause is bull****, people with depression transform any little thing in a disaster.
It's genetic probably.
This is what modern medicine tells us, but you can obviously discredit the science and go to some healer that will say when you are 1 year old your mother screamed with you so you got depressed and now you have to do therapy to fix this.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Cuauhtemoc said:


> This underlying cause is bull****, people with depression transform any little thing in a disaster.
> It's genetic probably.
> This is what modern medicine tells us, but you can obviously discredit the science and go to some healer that will say when you are 1 year old your mother screamed with you so you got depressed and now you have to do therapy to fix this.


really? dude seriously your digging yourself into a hole....


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## hiddenaway (Jan 16, 2011)

> Thank you for that post hiddenaway.
> 
> I am trying to see a specialist/psychiatrist soon to tackle my depression and anxiety issues. I am tired of seeing my GP who doesn't seem to do much except write another script for my medication.
> 
> I have a few months left before I begin school so I will be taking medication until then. What kind of therapy or counselling would you suggest while on medication?


Find a therapist who specializes in anxiety/depression issues. The best in my experience are those that use an eclectic approach to therapy with a focus on cognitive-behavioral therapy, mindfulness-based therapy and even a little psychoanalysis (which looks more at how environment has shaped your disorder and underlying beliefs that persist to hold you back). The simplest way is to just ask your therapist what approach he/she uses and what your treatment might look like. I recommend a psychologist, clinical or counseling.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

hiddenaway said:


> Actually I have a graduate degree in psychology and am pretty well versed on psychological and psychiatric research. A meta-analysis of all the treatments for depression showed that it is the combination of therapy plus medication that has the best outcomes for depression. Often depression is so crippling that insight into one's problems is not possible until the symptoms have abated a bit. Then this is where therapy takes over to help uncover some of the root causes of depression and the introduction of coping mechanisms.
> 
> Is there some sort of actual scientific research to suggest this? If this was the ultimate magical cause of depression for all people then it would be much more common knowledge. There are a few indicates that issues like hypothyriodism can contribute to depression for some, but as far as vitamin B, zinc, histamines and copper I don't know that there has been any wide-spread research to suggest this. If so please point to a scientific, peer-reviewed journal where it has been published.
> 
> As far as alternative therapies-- I have tried St. John's wort, Sam-e, curcumin, kava kava, among many others. I meditate regularly, I exercise regularly, I have changed by diet, I have had my blood tested for deficiencies-- all clear. I have aligned my chakras and done yoga and pranayama, mindfulness therapy, CBT, even crap like EFT. All to little avail. I still incorporate these elements into my life, but find that they could not defeat my depression. In my mind the cause of my depression is hereditary causing biological imbalances in my brain. I am not a lover of SSRIs, but I have found these to be the only thing that works.


*Hello again hiddenaway,

Its great to hear of your psychology degree and knowledge of mental health issues. Assuming this is the truth, then yes you should be "well versed", but please keep an open mind when it comes to alternative treatment for anxiety and depression. There are a great deal of studies and evidence that shows drugs are not the only thing that may be able to help and for many peopl alternatives can be just as effective, if not better, and with less of the horrible side effects that come with drugs. Also, keep the jargon to a minimum so we can all follow along my friend .

To answer your question, yes there is "actual scientific research". Please do not be so silly, though. We both know I never said pyroluria was the "ultimate magic cause"; rather, for some people who have suffered with various mental health issues, treating the pyroluria has in essence cured them. There is one peer reviewed journal article I am aware of for the study of pyroluria. It is called "Discerning the Mauve Factor" by McGinnis WR et al. You can find it online and also check out some of Dr. Carl Pfieffer's work on google scholar. Further, places like the Mood Cure treatement center in California, the Pfeiffer Treatment Center, and many others actively treat this condition. Why then may one ask "then why does my doctor not know about this" or "then why are more people not being tested for this and other root causes instead of whipping out the pin and prescription pad". I do not have all the answers, I can only speculate, keep an open mind, and think outside the bun. As I mentioned before, the pharmaceutical industry has its hands in the pockets of many :mum, and also there is just not a lot of money to be made for finding root causes and treating them with nutrients or non-drug therapy.

To be honest, I am a bit surprised none of those alternative treatments worked. But because they did not work for you, does not mean they wont work for others just, as in the same way, drugs may work for some and not for others. Please enlighten us more on your experience with Reiki. There is a psychiatrist in Maryland, Alice Lee-Bloem, who uses energy medicine (dont know what kind) in her treatment and has had great results. Check out her website when you get a chance. I recently did my first Reiki session because I found out that they use it at a local cancer hospital (MD Anderson) as complementary medicine and I became very interested in it for helping me overcome my problems. I think we can both agree that there is a lot more to the story of healing than meets the eye (i.e. just because there is not yet a peer reviewed article does not mean something is a snake juice).

Until next time, take care and go to yoga! *


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

These drugs are harmful; do not take them period.


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

I'm sorry, I don't have anything against these "alternative" therapies(well, in fact I do when they try discrediting modern medicine and making people do stupid choices), but I'm not risking my own mental health trying them, I mean, not that they will do any harm per se but instead of using the proven medicine I will be spending time on things that may not work at all.


And I feel no shame at all in getting healed by something artificial, instead of aligning my chacras or doing yoga, and I monitor my health with blood tests, periodic exams,I do exercises and eat well, and so far the SSRI's have caused no damage whatsoever to my body


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Cuauhtemoc said:


> I'm sorry, I don't have anything against these "alternative" therapies(well, in fact I do when they try discrediting modern medicine and making people do stupid choices), but I'm not risking my own mental health trying them, I mean, not that they will do any harm per se but instead of using the proven medicine I will be spending time on things that may not work at all.
> 
> And I feel no shame at all in getting healed by something artificial, instead of aligning my chacras or doing yoga, and I monitor my health with blood tests, periodic exams,I do exercises and eat well, and so far the SSRI's have caused no damage whatsoever to my body


The drugs don't heal anything buddy they make you feel better by chemically supressing your syptoms. As far as side effects, you just are not aware of the side effects yet but one day you will see the truth: the drugs are toxic...


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't care about being healed, I just want to feel good lol
And who says the drug is toxic? You?
It seems the old prejudice against synthetic chemicals, I'm a chemist myself and hate that.

Plus, everything in the body is chemical, feeling SA symptoms is just a chemical thing, as is depression. Therapy may also change your brain chemistry, but I don't really think it's effective.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Doubt your a chemist guy, but yes the drugs are toxic and not because I say but because there is proof out there. Don't be so naïve.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

I have to agree with bruno2006; these drugs are harmful.


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

bruno2006 said:


> Doubt your a chemist guy, but yes the drugs are toxic and not because I say but because there is proof out there. Don't be so naïve.


I'm a chemist, chemical engineer to be more precise, not focused on drugs, but I do understand the prejudice there is around drugs or anything synthetic.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Yea I am finding that very hard to believe. Go back and look at your posts guy, you are totally on another level...


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

Lol whatever helps you sleep at night


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> These drugs are harmful; do not take them period.


ohhhhhhhhhhh so typical. Why dont you just make your signature that comment and it'l save you posting it on anything medication related


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Grow up


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> ohhhhhhhhhhh so typical. Why dont you just make your signature that comment and it'l save you posting it on anything medication related


Why don't you grow up? If you don't want to discuss this stuff the bye bye!


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> ohhhhhhhhhhh so typical. Why dont you just make your signature that comment and it'l save you posting it on anything medication related


At last we meet again; I'm simply expressing my views you don't have to respond to it. One of these days you will realize that these meds are destroying your life; you may not realize it right now. If anything I feel sorry for you. I hope you enjoy making these drug companies profits because that is all they see you as until your dead from the meds than they will move on to their next victim.

There are others on this forum who feel the same way so I know I'm not the only one.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Why don't you grow up? If you don't want to discuss this stuff the bye bye!


You dont know the history here. Im not even directing my posts towards you.



QuietBoy99 said:


> At last we meet again; I'm simply expressing my views you don't have to respond to it. One of these days you will realize that these meds are destroying your life; you may not realize it right now. If anything I feel sorry for you. I hope you enjoy making these drug companies profits because that is all they see you as until your dead from the meds than they will move on to their next victim.
> 
> There are others on this forum who feel the same way so I know I'm not the only one.


No, what you are expressing is a narrow minded and completely one sided viewpoint that is often invalid, especially to people suffering from a number of problems either psychological or pain related. The fact that you dismiss everything as useless or harmful just because your own endevours have failed doesnt mean other people haven't found relief or managed their situations for the better. Why cant you acknowledge this fact?


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> You dont know the history here. Im not even directing my posts towards you.
> 
> No, what you are expressing is a narrow minded and completely one sided viewpoint that is often invalid, especially to people suffering from a number of problems either psychological or pain related. The fact that you dismiss everything as useless or harmful just because your own endevours have failed doesnt mean other people haven't found relief or managed their situations for the better. Why cant you acknowledge this fact?


LoL, we have a history together? This is where your wrong; I do acknowledge that some have found relief but I would say that it is very short-term and in most cases it's a result of placebo; if people on meds think that it works then they begin to feel better same with a sugar pill minus serious side effects. Look it up on google on antidepressant vs. placebo; the results are shocking. There are many more stories like mines like I said I'm not the only one. You have failed to acknowledge the many more horror stories of these meds. I can tell you that I've been off of the meds for many years and it was the best thing I have ever done. What I'm expressing are facts that you have failed to refute and just plain ignored which says a lot.

I once had the same thinking like you until I realized that the meds were messing up my life: relationships, school, work and what do doctors do? increase the dosage or change meds? I told my doctor to "shove it" and never came back. I once had a doctor who told me he tried cymbalta because he had joint pain problems another use for these meds and cymbalta knocked him out cold; he feel asleep at his office and nearly got fired and did he continue taking cymbalta? HELL NO!!! Yet he tells others to take these meds? HYPOCRITE!!!! I have presented my views and if you don't agree with them than that is your choice.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> LoL, we have a history together? This is where your wrong; I do acknowledge that some have found relief but I would say that it is very short-term and in most cases it's a result of placebo; if people on meds think that it works then they begin to feel better same with a sugar pill minus serious side effects. Look it up on google on antidepressant vs. placebo; the results are shocking. There are many more stories like mines like I said I'm not the only one. You have failed to acknowledge the many more horror stories of these meds. I can tell you that I've been off of the meds for many years and it was the best thing I have ever done. What I'm expressing are facts that you have failed to refute and just plain ignored which says a lot.
> 
> I once had the same thinking like you until I realized that the meds were messing up my life: relationships, school, work and what do doctors do? increase the dosage or change meds? I told my doctor to "shove it" and never came back. I once had a doctor who told me he tried cymbalta because he had joint pain problems another use for these meds and cymbalta knocked him out cold; he feel asleep at his office and nearly got fired and did he continue taking cymbalta? HELL NO!!! Yet he tells others to take these meds? HYPOCRITE!!!! I have presented my views and if you don't agree with them than that is your choice.


Firstly, dont say i am anything like you or 'how you used to be'. I find that an incredible, gross, generalization and statement strong enough to discredit you right where you stand.

What's saying a lot, is the fact that you are out there TELLING people not to take medication, as opposed to letting them decide with their own informed concent.

What are your credentials? Are you a qualified medical professional? Are you trained in mental health to any degree? Based on the things i've heard you preach, im going to go with no.

Do you see me posting countless unjustified and stupid comments like "take medication now! its the only way"? No, you dont. But for some reason you feel compelled to tell people how to manage their problems and decide for them. Oncemore i stress the notion that unless you are a trained physician, you have no place in telling people what to do or in the manner in which you are doing it.

*Im allergic to penicillin. But do i go out onto websites telling people not to take it because it kills by causing anaphylactic shock to some individuals? No, because that would be both a) incredibly irresponsible, b) i am not a trained medical physician and c) im not a preaching individual with an alterior motive.*

Ok, humor me this. Why then, if you are cured and 'better off' without meds, do you waste countless hours of your life on this website by fear mongering and campaigning to ban them? *What confounds me is that you are so ignorant and narrrow minded whilst having this childish ideology that "it didnt work for me, therefore no one should be allowed try it".*

You dont treat anyone with enough respect or intelligence to assume that they are capable of making their own choices.

People come here to discuss the pros and cons of meds which have either worked or havent worked for them. Not to campaign FOR or AGAINST them.

Thankfully, all i can say is i *dont* have *YOU*, making my decisions for me.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Firstly, dont say i am anything like you or 'how you used to be'. I find that an incredible, gross, generalization and statement strong enough to discredit you right where you stand.
> 
> What's saying a lot, is the fact that you are out there TELLING people not to take medication, as opposed to letting them decide with their own informed concent.
> 
> ...


Just realize that there is more to health than taking a drug for everything. Just looking at all those drugs you took says something for itself. Obviously, there is a time a place for a drug, but a real doctor will find the underlying cause of the problem and not chemically suppress the symptoms.

P.S. Please keep the harsh words to a minimum as it makes you look sort of childish.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Firstly, dont say i am anything like you or 'how you used to be'. I find that an incredible, gross, generalization and statement strong enough to discredit you right where you stand.
> 
> What's saying a lot, is the fact that you are out there TELLING people not to take medication, as opposed to letting them decide with their own informed concent.
> 
> ...


What I meant when I said I used to think like you do that medication was the solution to my problems but in the end it wasn't and I hard to learn the hard way. I recommend people not to take the medication as their first route; they should try other methods first and only use medications as a last route if at that. These are my views on medication you don't have to agree with it. I can see it objectively from both views. Yes, I do tell people they shouldn't use these meds as a "quick fix" for their problems but remember my views. I'm not putting a gun to your head if you want to take these meds than take them at your own risk.

All I said was when I got off these harmful meds that I felt a whole better that doesn't mean that my problems are solved. I never said I was a trained professional; these are my opinions and experience. I'm simply expressing my opinions and views. What about you? What are your credentials? From the way you type I can tell you probably don't have any but I could be wrong.

You complain about me making alleged comparisons but look you just brought up another comparison to penicillin. We are talking about antidepressants not anything else. When does penicillin cause homicide and suicide? When? You can't answer my question; you keep avoiding it.

Meds are not the answer to everything and if you believe that your have been fooled by the drug companies. I feel really sorry for you.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> What I meant when I said I used to think like you do that medication was the solution to my problems but in the end it wasn't and I hard to learn the hard way. I recommend people not to take the medication as their first route; they should try other methods first and only use medications as a last route if at that. These are my views on medication you don't have to agree with it. I can see it objectively from both views. Yes, I do tell people they shouldn't use these meds as a "quick fix" for their problems but remember my views. I'm not putting a gun to your head if you want to take these meds than take them at your own risk.
> 
> All I said was when I got off these harmful meds that I felt a whole better that doesn't mean that my problems are solved. I never said I was a trained professional; these are my opinions and experience. I'm simply expressing my opinions and views. What about you? What are your credentials? From the way you type I can tell you probably don't have any but I could be wrong.
> 
> ...


Ok, to start with

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/111/9/699

Just to make you eat your words.

Secondly, where is this so called accurate and specified test that you seem to think we have whereby we can distinguish between a persons mental state, and their so called 'psychotic homicidal meds induced' mania.

Prove to me that its not due to an ongoing destabilization of the patient, and furthermore a natural progression of deterioration due tot he course of their diagnosis.

Simply put, it cant be done. And anyone at this stage who claims to know specifically what the cause is would be lying.

Im glad being off meds works for you, but for others being on meds is helpful to them, and this is something you have to accept.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Wake up and Smell the Coffee*

First off anything from APA is supported by drug companies so we can assume this article is biased. The article is from 1955 this is 2011; its outdated.

Second what test are you talking about? I didn't say anything about a test in my last post. The only thing I can think of mentioning about a test is testing for a disorder; I asked you the question of: What test are available to test for these orders? Any biological test? blood test? anything? It's like when a doctor can run test for cancer or hiv/aids to see if a patient has it but with these so-called mental disorders you can't. You never answered my question all you did was ignore it which says a lot. There is strong evidence due to the violent events of school shootings and such. Columbine where the kids were on antidepressants, The Virginia Tech Shooting where the shooter was on SSRI, and many more If you can't see the link than your being completely naive. How can you prove that their is no link? Antidepressants do not prevent suicide they most likely increase it as it did with me and many more like me. Listen to personal stories of people on these harmful meds where countless violent acts were done and these behaviors were not typical of these people.

watch this video of patients





http://www.naturalnews.com/020394.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/antidepressants-cause-sui_b_218465.html

Plus did you know that class action waivers are granted to members of the FDA? Watch the youtube I linked for you. What does this means is that these FDA members are getting some type of compensation from drug companies which in my opinion is completely wrong because it creates a conflict of interest. These members are acknowledged and announced during FDA HEARINGS and waived of any wrong doing? WTF? If you can't say that is wrong than your being completely naive and your on your own there.

It sounds like your not going to change your views which is fine because everybody is entitled to their own opinions. Prove to me that they have a disorder through a biological test, blood test, or of that sort. Prove it. The answer is you can't. Prove to me a chemical imbalance exist through testing. PROVE IT. Again I know you can't. I know you cannot prove anything because I have asked you several times and you have failed every time.

There are many more people on this forum who have the same views I do. You seem to ignore all of that. Here is a link to one of them but remember their are more on this forum.

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/mean-letter-to-psychiatrist-138194/



A Sense of Purpose said:


> Ok, to start with
> 
> http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/111/9/699
> 
> ...


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

Oh conspiracy theories, c'mon guys drugs are not perfect but atleast they have a scientific basis, while alternative therapies are mainly without any basis whatsoever.
Plus we are in a free country(most of us atleast) so if I want to take my drugs, which I do for 6 years and with great results, it's my own damn problem.
And I will say again, I don't know if I'm healed but my life is great without any SA since I started paxil. With minimum side effects, so I think other people should try it, not saying it is going to work that well.
Also i really doubt the idea of an underlying cause, and unlike you guys, i have scientific peer reviewed articles saying it's more of a chemical imbalance(as everything in the world) than some chakra, qi or deep psychological problem, because once again I will say, my life was good, it was just that I had SA, I was not bullied, abused, spanked or anything.
But yeah, you guys could go the conspiracy route and tell me all these studies are financed by the drug companies and are just a massive conspiracy to sell us drugs that turns us into zombies.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> First off anything from APA is supported by drug companies so we can assume this article is biased. The article is from 1955 this is 2011; its outdated.
> 
> Second what test are you talking about? I didn't say anything about a test in my last post. The only thing I can think of mentioning about a test is testing for a disorder; I asked you the question of: What test are available to test for these orders? Any biological test? blood test? anything? It's like when a doctor can run test for cancer or hiv/aids to see if a patient has it but with these so-called mental disorders you can't. You never answered my question all you did was ignore it which says a lot. There is strong evidence due to the violent events of school shootings and such. Columbine where the kids were on antidepressants, The Virginia Tech Shooting where the shooter was on SSRI, and many more If you can't see the link than your being completely naive. How can you prove that their is no link? Antidepressants do not prevent suicide they most likely increase it as it did with me and many more like me. Listen to personal stories of people on these harmful meds where countless violent acts were done and these behaviors were not typical of these people.
> 
> ...


Whats petty is i provide evidence and you dismiss it because of its date then you ramble on with FDA conspiracy like you do in every single thread. Regardless it doesnt matter. There is nothing that can be done to convince you from your own bias. Refer back to my other posts. Ive stated that meds can be harmful, and they can be beneficial. But i certainly dont think they should be banned. ALL you can say is that they have no place in society, soley due to the fact that you didnt experience any positive benefits from them. Well, others have so i guess its a bit of bad luck to you.

Furthermore you are basically saying that because we do not have a 'scientific test' for the vast range of mental health disorders (that are well established) such as bipolar 1, Major depressive disorder, Schizophrenia, Borderline Personality Disorder that these people must be lying and thus are completely healthy? Thats an impressively ignorant and uneducated thing to say, e*nough for me to resist this debate (from this point on). *

For your information, when a patient with schizophrenia begins to have auditory hallucinations, their tympanic membrane moves independently of external sound. That in itself, is physiological evidence, recordable and testable in support of a mental condition, that supports a diagnosis such as schizophrenia. Please...

Its not worth my time. But over the course of these threads im glad that i have had the opportunity to express my point, backed with research and logical argument so people can decide for themselves.* You however, seem to think that its appropriate to encourage people off their meds and against their mental health professional's advice without any accreditationor training in the field.*

I really dont think i even need to point out how bad and wrong that is.

PS: I never made any claims in agreeing to the serotonin 'chemical imbalance' theory. *Yet another misquote clearly indicating that you dont pay attention to the argument at hand because you are too busy preaching.

*If i were to believe any current psychiatric theory it would be the dopamine hypothesis for schizophrenia regarding hallucinations and the efficacy of blocking D2 receptors, so please get your facts straight.

So for now, you can digest this. Go back and perhaps even read some of the older threads and re-evaluate or just ignore and refute like you seem to do automatically.

Either way, i wont be checking this thread for a response. Enjoy


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*It's all Facts*



Cuauhtemoc said:


> Oh conspiracy theories, c'mon guys drugs are not perfect but atleast they have a scientific basis, while alternative therapies are mainly without any basis whatsoever.
> Plus we are in a free country(most of us atleast) so if I want to take my drugs, which I do for 6 years and with great results, it's my own damn problem.
> And I will say again, I don't know if I'm healed but my life is great without any SA since I started paxil. With minimum side effects, so I think other people should try it, not saying it is going to work that well.
> Also i really doubt the idea of an underlying cause, and unlike you guys, i have scientific peer reviewed articles saying it's more of a chemical imbalance(as everything in the world) than some chakra, qi or deep psychological problem, because once again I will say, my life was good, it was just that I had SA, I was not bullied, abused, spanked or anything.
> But yeah, you guys could go the conspiracy route and tell me all these studies are financed by the drug companies and are just a massive conspiracy to sell us drugs that turns us into zombies.


There are no scientific basis for mental disorders; what biological test, blood test, and such do they ran on patients? I've asked that quite a few times and still no answer. No one ever said you couldn't take these harmful meds but do so at your own risk and you think its a problem? Those articles are not scientific by any means. First off what conspiracy theories are you talking about? You must be reading a different post. These are all facts; 
*FACT #1:* People on the FDA board do receive compensation from drug companies and are essentially waived from any wrong doing WATCH THE YOUTUBE VIDEO I LINKED THEN COMMENT at 4:30. 
*FACT #2:* Drug studies and clinical trails are sponsored by drug companies. 
You need to get your facts straight because you are digging yourself into a deeper hole every time you speak.



A Sense of Purpose said:


> Whats petty is i provide evidence and you dismiss it because of its date then you ramble on with FDA conspiracy like you do in every single thread. Regardless it doesnt matter. There is nothing that can be done to convince you from your own bias. Refer back to my other posts. Ive stated that meds can be harmful, and they can be beneficial. But i certainly dont think they should be banned. ALL you can say is that they have no place in society, soley due to the fact that you didnt experience any positive benefits from them. Well, others have so i guess its a bit of bad luck to you.
> 
> Furthermore you are basically saying that because we do not have a 'scientific test' for the vast range of mental health disorders (that are well established) such as bipolar 1, Major depressive disorder, Schizophrenia, Borderline Personality Disorder that these people must be lying and thus are completely healthy? Thats an impressively ignorant and uneducated thing to say, e*nough for me to resist this debate (from this point on). *
> 
> ...


First off what conspiracy theory are you talking about? Now your just making stuff up. These are facts that I present to you like I said watch the YouTube video I linked than comment. If you want to get angry than get angry at the facts not at the person presenting them. Read the post I responded up above on that. I never said these meds should be banned; could you please quote me on prior post that I said that? Again your just pulling words out of the air which isn't making you look any good. Again it's not just my experience its many more like me; I even provided you with a link from another person on this forum who shares the same views I do, again you have failed to acknowledge it.

Here is another link to other post:

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/how-i-hate-medication-93867/

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/i-hate-being-on-effexor-130584/

Of course you'll ignore it because your the one who is bias not me.

Again I will ask you; What biological test, blood test, chemical imbalance test are available? Again you have failed to provided any proof so this will lead me to the conclusion that you have no proof. Who said that problems and health concerns don't exist? *Not me again your just putting words in other people's mouths; don't do that because it's not making you look good. *

*Check out the Thud Experiment.*





I know that you won't check out the YouTube video because of your bias. I feel sorry for you.

You have provided me with weak evidence and you have no solid proof of anything. Educate yourself first on both sides before commenting because I have done my research and clearly you haven't. Like I said your research is too weak and you haven't answered any of my questions. I have provided you with videos, articles and such but you haven't said 1 single thing about them; look whose the one whose bias? *I never said I was a health professional you need to re-read my post. Where did you get your Medical Doctor education from again? Thought so. Who are you to give advice and such when you have no credentials yourself? Your character is slowly surfacing.

*These are my views and  opinions if you have a problem with that than don't read or post a response just ignore it like you ignore my strong evidence. Psychiatric *THEORY??? *The last time I checked a theory is not a fact; your proving my point. It's all it is just *THEORIES.* Provide me with *SCIENTIFIC PROOF *not *THEORIES. *Again you can't because you don't have any proof. A doctor can ran medical test backed up by science to see if a patient has cancer or aids/hiv but what about mental disorders? You digging yourself into a deeper hole every time you speak.

As a final note; You have so many holes in your arguments that it's not even funny. You were a bit childish at times using harsh words instead of being an adult. When your ready to provide *SCIENTIFIC PROOF *than come back and post until then just keep doing your research and taking your "life-saving" meds. Your the one who commented on me first so you need to get your head on straight. Good luck to you and your life.


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## Zosema (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi, I'm new to this forum, I've joined as I'd like to find out if anyone is having the same issues I'm experiencing.

I have been taking Citalopram for most of the last 10 years and Propranolol for just over 2 years. I'm taking the Citalopram for depression and the Propranolol for the physical effects of generalised anxiety.

I am English, female, aged 43 and living in the UK. My medication is prescribed for me by my GP, not a mental health specialist.

My concerns are the longterm effects of taking an SSRI for such a long time. I have been noticing the following for about 2 years now:

General mental "fog", ie a lack of clarity
Slowness of thinking/cognition
Can't think of words I want and fumble around in my brain for them
Lack of mental sharpness
Slow on the uptake/a little bit "thick"!
Can't think on my feet any longer

I used to be mentally sharp and I had a brilliant memory. I'm also well educated, so definitely not "thick", but I feel that I am becoming so.

A general search via Google pulled up lots of sites where others have mentioned these issues, but when I mentioned them to my doctor about 6 months ago he just brushed me off.

I'm seeing him again today and I'm going to reiterate these issues.

I'm very worried about the future and whether my mental capacity is going to decline any further.

Help me please!!

Thanks very much.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

Zosema said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum, I've joined as I'd like to find out if anyone is having the same issues I'm experiencing.
> 
> I have been taking Citalopram for most of the last 10 years and Propranolol for just over 2 years. I'm taking the Citalopram for depression and the Propranolol for the physical effects of generalised anxiety.
> 
> ...


Hello, thank you for posting. It's probably the long-term side effects of these harmful drugs kicking it sweetie. Your doctor either doesn't know any better or he knows but just chooses to ignore all the harmful effects either way I suggest you tell your doctor that you want to stop taking these awful meds or it maybe too late to save you. Again this proves that more and more problems are showing up over time as you state you've been on them for 10 years.

Ask your doctor or demand for a biological test or chemical imbalance test. He'll probably there isn't any; no proof no nothing. I use to be really sharp too but these meds have ruined my life and years that I can never get back. Good luck to you sweetie and if you have other questions you can pm me.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Zosema said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum, I've joined as I'd like to find out if anyone is having the same issues I'm experiencing.
> 
> I have been taking Citalopram for most of the last 10 years and Propranolol for just over 2 years. I'm taking the Citalopram for depression and the Propranolol for the physical effects of generalised anxiety.
> 
> ...


Hello and thanks for your posting!

I too am in the same boat as you and you can check my original post on here which sounds similar to yours. People seem to just dismiss our symptoms, but I think its pretty easy to relate our cognitive decline to the drugs. I am currently trying to deal with my issues without using drugs as I know what awaits me in the future (more side effects). I encourage you not to give up as the brain and body has a remarkable ability to heal and renew itself (ie neurogenesis).

There are doctors and other health care specialists out there who specialize in getting people off drugs and finding the root causes as opposed to chemically suppressing them. Perhaps you can begin with a local search of practitioners who specialize in this. It is usually pretty difficult to find someone like this as they are few and far between, but it is possible. Also consider trying to use energy medicine as it helps heal you much faster. Also there is evidence out there that shows hypobaric oxygen chambers are great for repairing damage caused by drugs. 
Please let us know how it goes!


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Zosema said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum, I've joined as I'd like to find out if anyone is having the same issues I'm experiencing.
> 
> I have been taking Citalopram for most of the last 10 years and Propranolol for just over 2 years. I'm taking the Citalopram for depression and the Propranolol for the physical effects of generalised anxiety.
> 
> ...


I recently came across a Dr. Cheney and how he describes SSRIs frying the brain. Ironically, they say it takes around 10 years, more or less, for this to happen, just the amount of time you have been on them. Please check out:

http://www.masscfids.org/resource-l...gainst-long-term-use-of-ssrls-and-stilmulants

One thing I would recommend (search Dr. Wright and lithium) is taking a small dose of lithium orotate and also tumeric as neuroprotectors.


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## CD700 (Apr 22, 2010)

bruno2006 said:


> I recently came across a Dr. Cheney and how he describes SSRIs frying the brain. Ironically, they say it takes around 10 years, more or less, for this to happen, just the amount of time you have been on them. Please check out:
> 
> http://www.masscfids.org/resource-l...gainst-long-term-use-of-ssrls-and-stilmulants
> 
> One thing I would recommend (search Dr. Wright and lithium) is taking a small dose of lithium orotate and also tumeric as neuroprotectors.


What a load of scaremongering ****
I like how they put this at the end ....
"[although neuro*logical problems may be a natural result of CFIDS/ME after more than a decade. Most of the participants didn't use these medications (or at least weren't using them at the time of the study.)-L.D.]"

The effect of having depression for 10 years on the brain now that is something. Cant concentrate enough to really learn and uptake information and add to the fact you just don't give a ****. Everything feels worthless.
Depressed people wouldn't use as much of their brain as non-depressed people by default.
You two are just hypochondriacs and I don't know why you post here day in day out with negative crap about medication that a lot of people swear by and owe their life too.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

blakeyz said:


> What a load of scaremongering ****
> I like how they put this at the end ....
> "[although neuro*logical problems may be a natural result of CFIDS/ME after more than a decade. Most of the participants didn't use these medications (or at least weren't using them at the time of the study.)-L.D.]"
> 
> ...


Oh don't be so foolish! Just as some people swear by and owe there life to drugs, others too swear by and have had their lives utterly destroyed by the drugs you fool.

So before you come here talking all types of nonsense and calling people names, just realize that there is proof the drugs are bad!

P.s. Grow up!


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

This is interesting:

"Dr. Cheney explains that SSRIs are designed to stop the reuptake channel of serotonergic neurons from "vacuuming up" excess serotonin. Often too much serotonin is left floating in the intersynaptic cleft between neurons. The only way the body can get rid of the excess serotonin is to oxidize it. Unfortunately, this turns into a toxic compound that, over time, kills both the sending and receiving neurons. Dr. Cheney stated, "What starts out as an attempt to increase serotonin and reduce symptoms ends up with the destruc tion of the serotonergic system itself".

I wonder if this only applies to serotonin and SSRIs, or also meds like wellbutrin. Does anyone know?


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

blakeyz said:


> What a load of scaremongering ****
> I like how they put this at the end ....
> "[although neuro*logical problems may be a natural result of CFIDS/ME after more than a decade. Most of the participants didn't use these medications (or at least weren't using them at the time of the study.)-L.D.]"
> 
> ...


I'm expressing my opinions about this subject so you need to grow up. There are people out there who swear and owe that these medications have messed up their lives; I'm one of them and there are many more out there. If anything these medications will most likely worsen the condition of a depressed person not help. Your better off trying alternative methods instead of a "quick-fix" pill.


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## CD700 (Apr 22, 2010)

QuietBoy99 said:


> I'm expressing my opinions about this subject so you need to grow up. There are people out there who swear and owe that these medications have messed up their lives; I'm one of them and there are many more out there. If anything these medications will most likely worsen the condition of a depressed person not help. Your better off trying alternative methods instead of a "quick-fix" pill.


What medications messed up your life ?
You can still type and think for yourself so isn't "messed up your life " a bit of a exaggeration. 
The day in day out negative posts about medication are not doing anyone any good and i hope people that were thinking about trying medication don't read them and decide against it.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

blakeyz said:


> What medications messed up your life ?
> You can still type and think for yourself so isn't "messed up your life " a bit of a exaggeration.
> The day in day out negative posts about medication are not doing anyone any good and i hope people that were thinking about trying medication don't read them and decide against it.


Go back and read the posts guy, it is not about just posting complaints and belittling antidepressants, rather we are all debating the cognitive and other side effects of the drugs. Obviously, this entails some complaining, but that's not what its all about.


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## Zosema (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi everyone, thanks for the all the replies and the differing experiences and opinions.

Its very interesting to hear about other people's experiences.

I saw my GP again yesterday and we agreed that I will slowly decrease the dose of my Citalopram and then introduce Dothiepin (can't remember the new name for this, I know its changed).

I was prescribed Dothiepin for my first depressive episode and it worked very well for me, so fingers crossed that it will again. The fact that its not another SSRI is something I feel positive about.

I will also increase my Propranolol to twice a day - I feel so trembly and shaky, my heart feels like its all fluttery. I'm taking a few days out until I feel better, I really don't think I should drive whilst I feel like this!

I do find my depression and anxiety (and OCD, just to really make me feel like a loser) very isolating, here in the UK there is so much misunderstanding of mental health conditions I don't mention it to people as they can be so judgmental and uncaring. Is it any better anywhere else in the world?

Best wishes to everyone,
Zosema


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

@*bruno2006 and QuietBoy99 *

First off let me say that I do think SSRI can cause long-term damage in certain highly susceptible individuals, but I strongly believe this is far far from the norm. SSRIs are around for longer than 10 years and we still haven't seen the huge scandal that SSRI's are the evil drugs some make them for. They still haven't been withdrawn from the market (and most likely never will) as has happened to other drugs which have proven to cause serious long term damage. On the contrary, SSRI's have helped millions of patients lead a better life and only a very tiny percentage of them has experienced truly detrimental side effects or long term damage. Belonging to this minority is of course overwhelmingly frustrating, but it doesn't justify panic-mongering on public forums.

Forums like this already have the tendency to draw people which are unhappy with their current medication otherwise they wouldn't seek help here in the first place. And even when considering that the forum audience is thus already biased in disfavor of SSRIs (and of course other medications), the verdict on SSRI's is still relatively mild.

Citing Dr. Cheney doesn't substantiate your claims one bit, as he doesn't provide any proof for his hypothesis. Simply stating that excess serotonin is "oxidized" and damaging the serotonin system sounds fancy and incredibly "logical", but is nothing more than an assumption from a scientific standpoint.

I do believe the neurological symptoms patients are experiencing are not just in their heads and do indeed exist, but who says it's the SSRI's and not the disorder itself that has caused the damaged underneath over the course of years? We know that SSRI's are not a miracle cure for anxiety disorders and depression. They tend to just mask the root cause or simply ameliorate symptoms while the disorder still progresses underneath, albeit at a slower speed. Say, unscientifically speaking, SSRIs prevent 95% of the neuronal damage in responding patients that would have otherwise been caused by anxiety and depression if left untreated. The other 5% is unavoidable neuronal damage. Then with a huge delay (10 years or so), symptoms of neurodegeneration slowly emerge and patients blame the SSRI for causing it. That is one possible explanation for what Dr. Cheney describes.

I am sure most people would be off far worse had they never taken an SSRI. They would have complained of above mentioned neurological symptoms far earlier had they left they disorder pharmacologically untreated.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

@QuietBoy99

It's true that no scientific tests outside of maybe a few exceptions in research facilities are available in order to diagnose mental disorders. But what is your point? That all mental disorders shall be exclusively treated with CBT? That all medication shall be withheld from patients because they do not cure or precisely target the disrupted neurotransmitter systems but nevertheless have proven to help?


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> @*bruno2006 and QuietBoy99 *
> 
> First off let me say that I do think SSRI can cause long-term damage in certain highly susceptible individuals, but I strongly believe this is far far from the norm. SSRIs are around for longer than 10 years and we still haven't seen the huge scandal that SSRI's are the evil drugs some make them for. They still haven't been withdrawn from the market (and most likely never will) as has happened to other drugs which have proven to cause serious long term damage. On the contrary, SSRI's have helped millions of patients lead a better life and only a very tiny percentage of them has experienced truly detrimental side effects or long term damage. Belonging to this minority is of course overwhelmingly frustrating, but it doesn't justify panic-mongering on public forums.
> 
> ...


First, thanks for the decent, educated response you gave. Unlike some individuals on here, you did not just write a bunch of harsh, silly words that, in the end, just discredit you and make you look foolish.

Moving on, I think you have a good point when you say they (antidepressants) can cause harm in some individuals but its not the norm. Perhaps this is true, but there has never been any unbiased studies conducted to see who has, who is, or who will suffer from the cognitive side effects. In my research and from my personal experience, the problem is much larger and it is not easily noticed, as mentioned in previous posts, because of the fact that it takes many years to damage the serotonergic system (among other things). Sometimes it can happen sooner rather than later. The long-term effects are much more subtle and not as easily noticed until it is too late (hence the increase in neurodegenerative disorders).

I please ask of you to scroll up and look at my previous posts. There I explain in detail much of why the drugs are not taken off the market. Mainly, there is so much money involved with these drugs, just like illegal drugs, that it is nearly impossible to take them off the market. Further, what you seem to think is that just because a drugs is harmful, that one day everyone will wake up and realize it and the government or some great person will come save everyone by taking it off the market. Absolutely beyond reality. The fact is, this country is so heavily influenced, dominated, brainwashed, and lied to by the multinational pharmaceutical companies that people believe a drug is needed for everything and that drugs are the only way to get some relief. Just remember this: its all about money! Please do not be so naive, I beg of you.

Another reason why the drugs are not taken off the market is because as you said they have helped millions of people. Well, my friend, do you not recall in the early days of psychiatry that cocaine was used as an antidepressant? This drug also "helped" a lot of people and it took a while before it became illegal. Obviously, there are many differences between cocaine and antidepressants, but the main similarities are these: they are both drugs that can alleviate anxiety, depression, and other problems but are harmful. Many antidepressants have a similar effect as that of cocaine, but the side effects are not as noticeable and the drug is not as addictive, yet it still causes damage. The point is, drugs will always be around because they make people feel good, but there is a price to pay as I and many others have seen with antidepressant drugs.

Dr. Cheney was just something I threw out there. You should take that with a grain of salt, but, nevertheless, you cannot just dismiss him and his claims. Also, the author of Prozac Backlash has compelling evidence that shows how bad these drugs are.

I personally do not think people would be far off worse without drugs, actually society as a whole would be much more healthier as seen in some communities around the world that do not use brain altering drugs. Do you not realize that anxiety and depression is an epidemic in the USA? The rise of people being diagnosed with a mental illness has skyrocketed in the past few years. And guess what? There is a direct correlation between the increase of psychotropic drugs and mental illness (see www.madinamerica.com)!! Go figure!! This is the same as happened with diabetes: an increase in sugar consumption and a direct correlation with an increase in diabetes! If these drugs were so great, why do Americans continue to to get sicker and sicker? Should a medicine not reduce the amount of sick people? Again....money money money. What about the school shootings? Look at all the random acts of violence and you will notice one thing that much of them have in common: psychotropic drugs.

These drugs can alleviate people suffering from severe depression, but every attempt should be made to find the underlying cause. The evidence is out there on the harmful side effects of these drugs, do not just dismiss it. Likewise, you can see for yourself by checking out such websites as paxilprogress, or other ones aimed at getting off these harmful drugs. People are beginning to realize....there are other ways!


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Here we go*



blakeyz said:


> What medications messed up your life ?
> You can still type and think for yourself so isn't "messed up your life " a bit of a exaggeration.
> The day in day out negative posts about medication are not doing anyone any good and i hope people that were thinking about trying medication don't read them and decide against it.


It's obvious that you do not understand and are missing the point. When I say these harmful medications have "messed up my life" not only mines but many others it's subtle. For example, cognitive thinking, bad/odd behavior, memory loss etc. It's not damage to where like you notice your arm is blown off. As a result it has cost me my education, jobs, relationships and such. 
This information is already out there so please get your facts straight. I'm expressing my views and if you have a problem than that is yours not mines. Good day to you.



Zosema said:


> Hi everyone, thanks for the all the replies and the differing experiences and opinions.
> 
> Its very interesting to hear about other people's experiences.
> 
> ...


Hello Zosema,

If you feel comfortable with the medication and still want to continue taking them then by all means. If I were you I would try to ween off the medication and live a medication-free life. Doctors tried to do the same thing with me when I didn't want to be on the medication anymore; they tried switching me to a different med or increasing or decreasing the dosage as I told them I AM NOT A GUINEA PIG so NO. My life has improved so dramatically once I was off those medication. It's just sad how therapist and doctors keep pushing medication when you mention depression; it's awful. As long as your happy with your life than I'm happy for you. Good luck. :yes



InnerPeace said:


> @QuietBoy99
> 
> It's true that no scientific tests outside of maybe a few exceptions in research facilities are available in order to diagnose mental disorders. But what is your point? That all mental disorders shall be exclusively treated with CBT? That all medication shall be withheld from patients because they do not cure or precisely target the disrupted neurotransmitter systems but nevertheless have proven to help?


What do you mean by "what is your point?" That is my point there is no scientific proof or test of any mental illness out there that is a fact unless you can prove to me otherwise which I doubt that you can. I'm not saying that problems and health concerns don't exist but to label these symptoms and put a medication to it is simply a way to generate profits for drug companies and doctors. I never said what you said at the end of your comment so your probably* confusing *me with someone else (hmmmm.....your medication). There is no science involved its "pretend science" if you must label it.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Zosema said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum, I've joined as I'd like to find out if anyone is having the same issues I'm experiencing.
> 
> I have been taking Citalopram for most of the last 10 years and Propranolol for just over 2 years. I'm taking the Citalopram for depression and the Propranolol for the physical effects of generalised anxiety.
> 
> ...


I forgot to mention to you that neurotherapy is great for anxiety. I use a similar form which alters the brain waves in the brain to create a relaxing, enlightened state. The one I use is called EquiSync and I use it before bed. I have had tremendous success with it and love how it makes me feel. Likewise, the neurotherapy can help change your brain and reduce your need for drugs. Do some research and if you want I can send you a copy of my Equisync (hope I dont get in trouble).


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> First, thanks for the decent, educated response you gave. Unlike some individuals on here, you did not just write a bunch of harsh, silly words that, in the end, just discredit you and make you look foolish.
> 
> Moving on, I think you have a good point when you say they (antidepressants) can cause harm in some individuals but its not the norm. Perhaps this is true, but there has never been any unbiased studies conducted to see who has, who is, or who will suffer from the cognitive side effects. In my research and from my personal experience, the problem is much larger and it is not easily noticed, as mentioned in previous posts, because of the fact that it takes many years to damage the serotonergic system (among other things). Sometimes it can happen sooner rather than later. The long-term effects are much more subtle and not as easily noticed until it is too late (hence the increase in neurodegenerative disorders).
> 
> ...


I agree with you Bruno. When you talk about cocaine, what drugs are you saying are similar? Adderall and wellbutrin? Because they both deal with dopamine (obviously in different ways).

And by the way, I'm a strong advocate against paxil, it *almost* killed me


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## nito (Nov 7, 2008)

I don't get it. Is SSRI the only thing for depression? Why not give stablon (Tianeptine) a go, its not SSRI and it helps depression according to studies. I made an order , and ill se how i get along.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> First, thanks for the decent, educated response you gave. Unlike some individuals on here, you did not just write a bunch of harsh, silly words that, in the end, just discredit you and make you look foolish.


Welcome. This discussion is getting way too emotional.




> Moving on, I think you have a good point when you say they (antidepressants) can cause harm in some individuals but its not the norm. Perhaps this is true, but there has never been any unbiased studies conducted to see who has, who is, or who will suffer from the cognitive side effects. In my research and from my personal experience, the problem is much larger and it is not easily noticed, as mentioned in previous posts, because of the fact that it takes many years to damage the serotonergic system (among other things). Sometimes it can happen sooner rather than later. The long-term effects are much more subtle and not as easily noticed until it is too late (hence the increase in neurodegenerative disorders).


There are several studies showing that SSRIs effects on cognition are generally mild with Sertraline being the least likely to affect cognitive performance most likely due to its DA enhancing properties.

Here is a great posting which lists severeal studies investigating SSRIs effects on cognition:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/35480-sertraline-cognitive-function

I think most of the cognitive impairment caused by SSRIs is caused by the dampening of dopamineric neurotransmission due to more serotonine. In the case of Paxil, (which by the way also affected my word recall) its anticholineric action is likely responsible, too. It is surely one of the dirtier SSRI drugs although quite effective in SA.




> I please ask of you to scroll up and look at my previous posts. There I explain in detail much of why the drugs are not taken off the market. Mainly, there is so much money involved with these drugs, just like illegal drugs, that it is nearly impossible to take them off the market. Further, what you seem to think is that just because a drugs is harmful, that one day everyone will wake up and realize it and the government or some great person will come save everyone by taking it off the market. Absolutely beyond reality. The fact is, this country is so heavily influenced, dominated, brainwashed, and lied to by the multinational pharmaceutical companies that people believe a drug is needed for everything and that drugs are the only way to get some relief. Just remember this: its all about money! Please do not be so naive, I beg of you.


Sorry, I don't have the time to dig deeper in this thread right now. I can very well imagine that pharmaceutical companies are involved in lots of shady business pratices and even have the power to influence politics and the FDA.
On the other hand, Pfizer was sued for billions because of false marketing claims involving 4 drugs, with one of them being Lyrica. Also many other drugs have been withdrawn from the market in the past decades because of concerns about cardiovascular damage. From the top of my head, these include e.g. quite a few appetite suppressants.
It's not like nothing is done to protect patients from harmful drugs. Pfizer even completely abandoned research into psychotropic drugs, because the entry barrier for such drugs and the many lawsuits by
patients makes is more and more difficult for pharmaceutical companies to make a low-risk profit. 
And I don't think one is naive just because one doesn't believe in overdramatized conspiracy theories.




> Another reason why the drugs are not taken off the market is because as you said they have helped millions of people. Well, my friend, do you not recall in the early days of psychiatry that cocaine was used as an antidepressant? This drug also "helped" a lot of people and it took a while before it became illegal. Obviously, there are many differences between cocaine and antidepressants, but the main similarities are these: they are both drugs that can alleviate anxiety, depression, and other problems but are harmful. Many antidepressants have a similar effect as that of cocaine, but the side effects are not as noticeable and the drug is not as addictive, yet it still causes damage. The point is, drugs will always be around because they make people feel good, but there is a price to pay as I and many others have seen with antidepressant drugs.


Even heroine was once a legal drug, but all this was during a time period when research methodologies were much less advanced than they are today and it was far easier to get a drug approved. Today, the neurotoxic and addictive potential of a drug can be much better determined than decades ago. Also drug regulations are way stricter than in the early days. It's simply not appropriate to compare these two eras of drug research. Science has advanced quite a bit since then.




> Dr. Cheney was just something I threw out there. You should take that with a grain of salt, but, nevertheless, you cannot just dismiss him and his claims. Also, the author of Prozac Backlash has compelling evidence that shows how bad these drugs are.


 

I dismiss his claims unless he provides proof. If you believe in science and scientific discourse than you should do the same. Admittedly, I haven't read "Prozac Backlash" so I can't really comment on it.




> I personally do not think people would be far off worse without drugs, actually society as a whole would be much more healthier as seen in some communities around the world that do not use brain altering drugs. Do you not realize that anxiety and depression is an epidemic in the USA? The rise of people being diagnosed with a mental illness has skyrocketed in the past few years. And guess what? There is a direct correlation between the increase of psychotropic drugs and mental illness (see www.madinamerica.com)!! Go figure!! This is the same as happened with diabetes: an increase in sugar consumption and a direct correlation with an increase in diabetes! If these drugs were so great, why do Americans continue to to get sicker and sicker? Should a medicine not reduce the amount of sick people? Again....money money money. What about the school shootings? Look at all the random acts of violence and you will notice one thing that much of them have in common: psychotropic drugs.


 

Do not confuse correlation with causation. Lots of factors could be at play here:

- the more and more sedentary living style of modern societies, i.e. sitting and working at a computer for most of the day is not doing as any good and surely makes us more prone to mental health issues
- diet (something that causes an obesity epedemic might as well do mental harm)

...and so forth

You are welcome to extend the list ;-)

Then again, who can say for sure that today's societies are mentally sicker than they were in the 50s or 60s or earlier Do we really have enough reliable data to compare? I really don't know. Psychotropic drugs might have added to the misery, but calling them the main factor sounds like conjecture to me. 
I will definitely look into the the website you posted when I am back home.




> These drugs can alleviate people suffering from severe depression, but every attempt should be made to find the underlying cause. The evidence is out there on the harmful side effects of these drugs, do not just dismiss it. Likewise, you can see for yourself by checking out such websites as paxilprogress, or other ones aimed at getting off these harmful drugs. People are beginning to realize....there are other ways!


Finding the underlying cause is easier said than done at this point in time. Science hasn't advanced to this point yet and most likely won't be for the next several decades. The brain is an immensely complex organ and we are just about to begin understanding it. Diagnosing is the one thing, but developing drugs that highly selectively target disrupted neurotransmission is many years away. Until then, the best that modern medicine can do is to use available drugs as responsibly as possible. That is unfortunately something it has failed to do more often than not, e.g. throwing psychotropic drugs like candy at patients with only mild symptoms etc. This is IMO where the real trouble arises. Too many people are on drugs they do not really need.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

> What do you mean by "what is your point?" That is my point there is no scientific proof or test of any mental illness out there that is a fact unless you can prove to me otherwise which I doubt that you can. I'm not saying that problems and health concerns don't exist but to label these symptoms and put a medication to it is simply a way to generate profits for drug companies and doctors. I never said what you said at the end of your comment so your probably* confusing *me with someone else (hmmmm.....your medication). There is no science involved its "pretend science" if you must label it.


It's really hard to follow your train of thought because you do not suggest an alternative way to treat mental disorders. We are all well aware that no reliable test is in existance which let's you unobjectionably diagnose a mental disease. That doesn't change the fact that these disorders are real and require medical intervention especially in severe cases. Doing nothing is not an alternative and simply accusing doctors and pharamceutical companies of reckless profit-making even less so.
If you want to remain a serious discussion partner on this forum you are well-advised to alter your tone and to provide arguments beyond hysterical conspiracy theories and allegations.

How about letting us know how you would go about treating mental disorders today...?

Also on a more basic level...a company typically invents a product if there is a need for it. That applies to pharmaceutical companies, too. If there was no need for psychotropic drugs in the first place we wouldn't have them. However, reality is that many mental disorders fail to response to mere CBT or lifestyle changes and people telling sufferers to "man up" or to "have a more positive attitude". Then drug treatment remains the only valid option.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

I would also like to add that newer drugs are usually way safer and more beningn than their early predeccesors. For example take a look at Agomelatine which aside from some potential elevation of liver enzymes (which can be easily monitored) is a remarkably safe and benign drug. I yet have to hear any horror stories from patients taking it. It might not be the most effective drug in the world, but has surely helped many depressive patients.
Let's see and wait how Viibryd performs although I suspect it will carry many of the issues of SSRIs since its main method of action is serotonin reuptake inhibtion, too.

Much hope also lies in drugs targeting other neurotransmitter system like for example glutamate.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> I would also like to add that newer drugs are usually way safer and more beningn than their early predeccesors. For example take a look at Agomelatine which aside from some potential elevation of liver enzymes (which can be easily monitored) is a remarkably safe and benign drug. I yet have to hear any horror stories from patients taking it. It might not be the most effective drug in the world, but has surely helped many depressive patients.
> Let's see and wait how Viibryd performs although I suspect it will carry many of the issues of SSRIs since its main method of action is serotonin reuptake inhibtion, too.
> 
> Much hope also lies in drugs targeting other neurotransmitter system like for example glutamate.


Before I respond to your last post, I must point out that it seems like you work in the mental health field prescribing drugs. If this is so, then there is an obvious conflict of interest here and all your jargon is confusing. We are simply lay people who, some of us at least, are debating the cogintive effects of the antidepressants we have taken that have damaged us and made our condition worse. 

Second, this is exactly the problem and why people are suffering so much from drug induced diseases and side effects: you only focus focus focus on drugs drugs drugs:idea when in fact the pharmacuetical controlled health care industry will always prefer to find a "new", "safer", and yes PATENTED drug in order to "help" all of us suffering from anxiety. :no How many times must we hear about a new wonder drug that is so safe for all of us suffering? When will the madness stop? Perhaps when people wake up and see that drugs for mental health should be a last resort? Perhaps when people realize that there are many underlying causes of memtal illness? Take a step back, open your mind, and quit puting so much faith in the drug cartels, please!


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

The Professor said:


> I agree with you Bruno. When you talk about cocaine, what drugs are you saying are similar? Adderall and wellbutrin? Because they both deal with dopamine (obviously in different ways).
> 
> And by the way, I'm a strong advocate against paxil, it *almost* killed me


Cocaine is similar to antidepressants in the way that they both cause more of the certain neurotransmitter to be kept in the brain. This holds true for almost all mind altering drugs:they artificially and chemically increase feel good brain chemicals, but in the end we pay a price. This is evident with withdrawal from antidepressants and cocaine where our bodies actually stop producing our own serotonin, or in the case of cocaine, dopamine. The drug companies refuse to call this withdrawal as it sounds bad and shows to the world that the drugs are really addicting, so they came up with the funny, somewhat rediculous term "discontinuation syndrome". Drugs are drugs, they will never cure our anxiety, only make it worse in the long term....:teeth


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Before I respond to your last post, I must point out that it seems like you work in the mental health field prescribing drugs. If this is so, then there is an obvious conflict of interest here and all your jargon is confusing. We are simply lay people who, some of us at least, are debating the cogintive effects of the antidepressants we have taken that have damaged us and made our condition worse.
> 
> Second, this is exactly the problem and why people are suffering so much from drug induced diseases and side effects: you only focus focus focus on drugs drugs drugs:idea when in fact the pharmacuetical controlled health care industry will always prefer to find a "new", "safer", and yes PATENTED drug in order to "help" all of us suffering from anxiety. :no How many times must we hear about a new wonder drug that is so safe for all of us suffering? When will the madness stop? Perhaps when people wake up and see that drugs for mental health should be a last resort? Perhaps when people realize that there are many underlying causes of memtal illness? Take a step back, open your mind, and quit puting so much faith in the drug cartels, please!


No I'm not working in the mental health field. I have an IT background and my understanding of pharmacology is lay man, too. I just browse relevevant boards from time to time and see how much I can absorb, but honestly, I have to struggle hard understanding the jargon and more often than not I don't understand it.

My first link was to a thread over at Mind & Muscle where a very knowledgeable guy listed studies investigating the effects of SSRIs on cognition. In summary, the effects on cognition are mild with Sertraline being the least likely to cause any cognitive problems. It even improves some aspects of cognition. If you are interested in a thorough examination of SSRIs and their pontential in treating various mental ailments you are well-advised to head over to the Mind & Muscle forums and read the threads by a guy named "Ex Dubio". You will be very relieved to read what he has to say. And what he writes are probably one of the most objective and informative postings on SSRIs you will come across on the internet, all referenced with studies. He also debunks the myth that SSRIs are not better than placebo. As I said, very very interesting stuff and much more fulfilling to read than panic-mongering based on speculative theories.

Btw, I just mentioned Agomelatine because it is a novel AD with a very safe side effects profile and quite effective though far from a miracle drug. But nonetheless it's a good example for how much medical science has learnt from past mistakes.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Zoloft withdrawal has been a horrible experience and even dangerous I've never felt so miserable in my life all this negative emotions and thoughts its made my life unable to cope what I'm feeling now this is my personal experience with withdrawl konopin and zoloft I feel like its for life and can't see any light out of the tunnel


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Zoloft withdrawal has been a horrible experience and even dangerous I've never felt so miserable in my life all this negative emotions and thoughts its made my life unable to cope what I'm feeling now this is my personal experience with withdrawl konopin and zoloft I feel like its for life and can't see any light out of the tunnel


Exactly! Once we are on the drugs we must stay on them to be "normal". Eventually they poop out and we are given another one or the dosage is increased! Its a cycle that's never ending. Then come the drug induced diseases like diabetes, thyroid problems, neurodegenerative disorders, etc. And guess what? There is a "new" "safer" drug waiting for those conditions. Its a big freakin mess and I personally got so tired of it I began looking for better ways to deal with my problems. Thank the Lord there are smart, caring, honest, ethical, moral people out there who can help with anxiety without giving you mind altering, disease causing drugs.


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Cocaine is similar to antidepressants in the way that they both cause more of the certain neurotransmitter to be kept in the brain. This holds true for almost all mind altering drugs:they artificially and chemically increase feel good brain chemicals, but in the end we pay a price. This is evident with withdrawal from antidepressants and cocaine where our bodies actually stop producing our own serotonin, or in the case of cocaine, dopamine. The drug companies refuse to call this withdrawal as it sounds bad and shows to the world that the drugs are really addicting, so they came up with the funny, somewhat rediculous term "discontinuation syndrome". Drugs are drugs, they will never cure our anxiety, only make it worse in the long term....:teeth


Are you on anything now? Have you been on anything?

It's such bull; it's all about money. I don't care how the business world is all about money, but drug companies? They actually **** up people's lives, and not only do they not care, but they try to hide it.

I've been on wellbutrin 150 (for ADD) for the past 2 months and just saw my doctor today to move up to 300 mg. I really didn't want to, but it can't hurt to be on for a few months can it??

Cocaine, adderall, and wellbutrin can't all act in the same exact way though can they? I mean the mechanism of action... I would hope they are not all the same. Or maybe they are but cocaine is just a much higher dose? I don't know.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

I have been on a host of drugs and it all started with effexor (by far the worst, you miss a dose by an hour and you feel it). It then went to paxil, prozac, zoloft, and now celexa. I once tried wellbutrin as my doctor said its pretty good. I began to shed hair and so I stopped. I have been able to reduce my celexa and am now on a tiny dose, I take it in conjunction with some nutrients which have been great. I still have a whole list of alternative methods I will try before I ever submit to the drugs again. I am not totally a drug hater, so I am not one to just sit back and suffer because the drugs are bad, I know they can help, at least for a time being. I just know that once I am on a higher dose, that is when I perceive the world in a different way: my personality changes, I am reckless, I am emotionless, and just can be outright odd on these drugs, not to mention I sleep half the day (bet there is a drug for that).

There are a number of places that offer alternative treatments and there is a doctor in Maryland I would so love to go to. Her name is Alice Lee-Bloem and a lot of her healing comes in the form of energy medicine. Check out her website, it has some amazing information there.

Anyways, I am not too sure about the whole mechanism of action when it comes to the all the drugs in comparison to antidepressants and the like. I was just making a point that antidepressants and other mind altering drugs work in a similar way to that of cocaine and other drugs: they chemically suppress symptoms but in the end cause more damage than good. I would have to do some more research on this subject, but in the end I think its safe to say what I said.


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> I have been on a host of drugs and it all started with effexor (by far the worst, you miss a dose by an hour and you feel it). It then went to paxil, prozac, zoloft, and now celexa. I once tried wellbutrin as my doctor said its pretty good. I began to shed hair and so I stopped. I have been able to reduce my celexa and am now on a tiny dose, I take it in conjunction with some nutrients which have been great. I still have a whole list of alternative methods I will try before I ever submit to the drugs again. I am not totally a drug hater, so I am not one to just sit back and suffer because the drugs are bad, I know they can help, at least for a time being. I just know that once I am on a higher dose, that is when I perceive the world in a different way: my personality changes, I am reckless, I am emotionless, and just can be outright odd on these drugs, not to mention I sleep half the day (bet there is a drug for that).
> 
> There are a number of places that offer alternative treatments and there is a doctor in Maryland I would so love to go to. Her name is Alice Lee-Bloem and a lot of her healing comes in the form of energy medicine. Check out her website, it has some amazing information there.
> 
> Anyways, I am not too sure about the whole mechanism of action when it comes to the all the drugs in comparison to antidepressants and the like. I was just making a point that antidepressants and other mind altering drugs work in a similar way to that of cocaine and other drugs: they chemically suppress symptoms but in the end cause more damage than good. I would have to do some more research on this subject, but in the end I think its safe to say what I said.


Looks very interesting. Have you heard of cranial sacral therapy? I did it a few times and it really affected me. I literally felt like I was upside down during part of it and I was seeing colors and stuff. I should have gone a little more regularly though.

I was also on zoloft effexor, paxil, buspar, and now wellbutrin

http://www.craniosacraltherapy.org/Whatis.htm


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

The Professor said:


> Looks very interesting. Have you heard of cranial sacral therapy? I did it a few times and it really affected me. I literally felt like I was upside down during part of it and I was seeing colors and stuff. I should have gone a little more regularly though.
> 
> I was also on zoloft effexor, paxil, buspar, and now wellbutrin
> 
> http://www.craniosacraltherapy.org/Whatis.htm


Yes I heard of this therapy. There are apparently good results with it. Yes you probably would have had better results if you stayed with it. Unfortunately, we who are suffering often need something stronger and faster working, hence drugs, but therapies like this can and do work.

Anyways, I will continue to explore more treatments to relieve my anxiety. I know people think its crazy to spend money and time on alternative doctors, but the truth is I want a family one day. I want to be healthy and happy. I want to be me...


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

@ bruno, The Professor

I can relate to quite a few of your reponses to drugs, be it the withdrawal or things like personality changes. I also experienced them to some degree in particular nasty withdrawal but it was nothing I couldn't cope with. It also wasn't easy to find the right dose and some never find it. Also tolerance is a major issue, i.e. a drug suddenly poops out after a few months or years. Medical science yet has to find a way to control the homestatic response of our body (drug tolerance). Then again, it happens to different degrees in people. Some take a drug for decades without it loosing its effectiveness, others take it for months and it poops out.

Always keep in mind that people's response to drugs is so highly individual that it is simply not right to generalize one's own response to the broad masses. Just take a look at med rating sites like these here:

www.askapatient.com
www.revolutionhealth.com
www.PatientsLikeMe.com
www.DrugRatingz.com

and you will be amazed how differently patients react to a drug. For one it's a life saver, for the other a harmless blank cartridge and for the other a side-effect loaden torture, but rarely you will find someone who experienced long-term or permanent damage. Before spreading fear on public forums, it's a good idea to step back for a moment and ask yourself whether or not one is a rare exception or a textbook example for a responder to a particular drug. Everbody is welcome to post his experience with drugs, negative or positive, but getting too intense on it and overdramatizing and generalizing is doing noone a favor. Especially not on a forum dealing with anxiety, where, believe it or not, lots of anxious people are trying to find help. I wouldn't be surprised if the few drug opponents in this thread managed to scare off some dozen forum readers from seeking drug therapy although these people may have benefited from such a step.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't be wandering on this planet anymore if I hadn't been prescribed propranolol (not a psychotropic drug per se, but anyway) for my intense performance anxiety and fear of public speaking. I am thankful that this drug exists and it has helped me tremendously for more than 10 years without noteworthy side effects and tolerance issues. Even SSRIs have given me immense relief from my depression and from my generalized anxiety disorder although at the cost of some uncomfortable withdrawal episodes and some side effects that I can deal with however.

I think it is a good time now to conclude this discussion, right? ;-)
At least I have nothing else to add.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> @ bruno, The Professor
> 
> I can relate to quite a few of your reponses to drugs, be it the withdrawal or things like personality changes. I also experienced them to some degree in particular nasty withdrawal but it was nothing I couldn't cope with. It also wasn't easy to find the right dose and some never find it. Also tolerance is a major issue, i.e. a drug suddenly poops out after a few months or years. Medical science yet has to find a way to control the homestatic response of our body (drug tolerance). Then again, it happens to different degrees in people. Some take a drug for decades without it loosing its effectiveness, others take it for months and it poops out.
> 
> ...


Seriously who are you? It seems like you are a psychiatrist or pharma rep the way you talk, just saying. But to answer your question, no its not time to end the discussion on the effects of antidepressants. And no we are not over generalizing or exaggerating the horrible side effects of the drugs. We have a right to talk about our experience without you coming here and sushing us up using all your jargon and "evidence".

With that said, I still need to respond to your last post at me, so give me a bit to gather my thoughts and examine your argument. Sounds like a plan?


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> @ bruno, The Professor
> 
> I can relate to quite a few of your reponses to drugs, be it the withdrawal or things like personality changes. I also experienced them to some degree in particular nasty withdrawal but it was nothing I couldn't cope with. It also wasn't easy to find the right dose and some never find it. Also tolerance is a major issue, i.e. a drug suddenly poops out after a few months or years. Medical science yet has to find a way to control the homestatic response of our body (drug tolerance). Then again, it happens to different degrees in people. Some take a drug for decades without it loosing its effectiveness, others take it for months and it poops out.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to find help too, that's why I'm trying to figure this stuff out. I may be the most paranoid of all about medication. In fact, I met with my doctor today and I have been planning on getting on something for SA, but I decided not to after reading everyone's responses to my question (on another thread). They basically all said that they have tried tons of medications, never found one that worked, and now they feel mentally slowed down and not as sharp as they used to be, which is my #1 fear, because that will affect the quality of my life for the rest of my life... because I won't be able to be successful in my field if I am not a quick thinker.

Obviously if you are suicidal or your life is just completely awful, medication is necessary. I assumed people reading this would understand that. Everyone has to do their own cost/benefit analysis. Unfortunately for me, my paranoia/hypochondraism will bias my analyses in favor of the safer side. I'm sure my parents would want me to just take the medication because it would be worth the risks, but I disagree.

But how dare you question that we post this stuff on a public forum. People take in information from numerous different sources, and ultimately, they have to decide what is best for them: if they should take medication or not. But people need to open their eyes and realize that they can't trust these companies that are driven by money. Their goals are not to "help mentally ill people get better" but rather "Let's make as much money as we can"... and I have no problem with that attitude, it's the way of the world. But we just need to be aware of that when considering our options.

I understand how people reading this may be scared to try medication now (like what happened to me). But there may be people out there like me, who can live with and face their anxiety without medication, who will be saved from the damages it may cause them in the future.

I hope you don't take this as me being harsh, I'm just trying to make a point.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Listen............*



InnerPeace said:


> It's really hard to follow your train of thought because you do not suggest an alternative way to treat mental disorders. We are all well aware that no reliable test is in existance which let's you unobjectionably diagnose a mental disease. That doesn't change the fact that these disorders are real and require medical intervention especially in severe cases. Doing nothing is not an alternative and simply accusing doctors and pharamceutical companies of reckless profit-making even less so.
> If you want to remain a serious discussion partner on this forum you are well-advised to alter your tone and to provide arguments beyond hysterical conspiracy theories and allegations.
> 
> How about letting us know how you would go about treating mental disorders today...?
> ...


How hard is it to understand that their is no medical test or scientific proof to diagnose a person; again I never said symptoms and problems don't exist. There are many alternatives to harmful medications, however I didn't say I would mention any but here are a few; vitamins or fish oil, exercise, positive thinking and such. There is also treatment such as brainwave therapy where it treatment can be *MEASURED*. Also back in the 1970's they did a study on support homes for mental illness and they found that these homes were helped the mentally ill far better than medications did.

Thud Experiement; check out this video on Psychiatric Hospital.





What conspiracy theories are you talking about? I speak of facts so please quote me on conspiracy theories. Quote me on where I said to do nothing about it. I never said that. You don't tell me how to "tone" myself; I'm expressing my views with facts. Your right there is a "need" for it and the need for doctors and drug companies to* GENERATE PROFITS *while killing people at the same time. Have you been reading the forums lately there are more and more people who feeling the same way I do about these harmful drugs of course you just ignore them. Drugs are not the only option there are other alternatives as I mentioned some up above. :roll



InnerPeace said:


> I would also like to add that newer drugs are usually way safer and more beningn than their early predeccesors. For example take a look at Agomelatine which aside from some potential elevation of liver enzymes (which can be easily monitored) is a remarkably safe and benign drug. I yet have to hear any horror stories from patients taking it. It might not be the most effective drug in the world, but has surely helped many depressive patients.
> Let's see and wait how Viibryd performs although I suspect it will carry many of the issues of SSRIs since its main method of action is serotonin reuptake inhibtion, too.
> 
> Much hope also lies in drugs targeting other neurotransmitter system like for example glutamate.


Keep in mind these are new drugs so we don't the harmful side effects yet. You haven't heard any horror stories YET because its new. Basically anybody who takes a new drug withing the first couple of years is a *GUINEA PIG. *Remember the brain is far more complex. :yes


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> How hard is it to understand that their is no medical test or scientific proof to diagnose a person; again I never said symptoms and problems don't exist. There are many alternatives to harmful medications, however I didn't say I would mention any but here are a few; vitamins or fish oil, exercise, positive thinking and such. There is also treatment such as brainwave therapy where it treatment can be *MEASURED*. Also back in the 1970's they did a study on support homes for mental illness and they found that these homes were helped the mentally ill far better than medications did.


Man, this is getting tiresome. Can't you read? I acknowledged severel times that there is no medical test or scientific proof to diagnose mental illnesses.

I can't believe the things you mentioned as alternatives. Fish oil? Vitamins? Are you nuts? If it was that simple to cure meantal disorders we wouldn't need any further research. 
Exercise? Does exercise cure anything? It helps cope with symtoms, but it's far from a cure or anything close.
Positive thinking? Laughable. That's like telling a mentally ill person to finally "man up". Totally ridiculous. The inablity to think positively is an inherent part of most mental diseases!
Brainwave therapy? I yet have to see anybody who cured his mental illness with that. Or did it cure you? Obviously not. And do you think alternative methods are safer and carry no risks? Far from it.



> Thud Experiement; check out this video on Psychiatric Hospital.


Is youtube your only source you will ever use? How scientific.
And what is it that you are trying to tell us with this video? That a mental hospital failed to reveal pseudo patients in 1973?? How "shocking". why don't you get back to the 40s or 50s. You will find many more horror stories like that. Psychiatry was in its infancy back then and it doesn't surprise me one bit. Also this happened almost some 40 years ago. At that time patients where put on ECT regularly and not as a last resort treatment.
I tell you what...whoever conducted this experiment should be accused of inhuman behaviour and not only the hospital. Letting normal people being put on a cocktail of psychiatry meds is nothing short of inhuman.



> What conspiracy theories are you talking about? I speak of facts so please quote me on conspiracy theories. Quote me on where I said to do nothing about it. I never said that. You don't tell me how to "tone" myself; I'm expressing my views with facts. Your right there is a "need" for it and the need for doctors and drug companies to* GENERATE PROFITS *while killing people at the same time. Have you been reading the forums lately there are more and more people who feeling the same way I do about these harmful drugs of course you just ignore them. Drugs are not the only option there are other alternatives as I mentioned some up above. :roll


First off, I tell you what I want.

Second, I really didn't know that pharma companies want to generate profit... :-/ Thanks a lot for pointing that out! Jesus, do you think we are all naive and consider pharma companies humanitarian organisations dedicating themselves to help the poor people? Of course they want to make a profit, but they make the best profit if their drug is better than the one from the competition! They ultimate goal of drug design is to find the most effective drug with the least number of side effects. If this can't be accomplished it is not because pharma companies don't want to, it is because they can't at this point in time. Medical science is not yet advanced enough to create the "miracle drug". Saying drug companies intentionally kill people is just plainly ignorant and stupid and one of the conspiracy theories you are making up.

Honestly, this forum is obviously not for you. With your disturbed attitude to drugs I still don't fully understand why you are here. Go find your luck in alternative methods and let us know how it went ;-) I am sure you will have plenty of success with fish oil, vitamins or even homeopathy ;-) I am really tired of reading your repetitive hippie postings.



> Keep in mind these are new drugs so we don't the harmful side effects yet. You haven't heard any horror stories YET because its new. Basically anybody who takes a new drug withing the first couple of years is a *GUINEA PIG. *Remember the brain is far more complex. :yes


After two years we would have a flood of horror stories at least about withdrawal or serious side effects. We don't live in the 90's where the internet was still developing. There are so many online community which constantly share their experiences with drugs.

Long term damage is a different matter though.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

The Professor said:


> I'm trying to find help too, that's why I'm trying to figure this stuff out. I may be the most paranoid of all about medication. In fact, I met with my doctor today and I have been planning on getting on something for SA, but I decided not to after reading everyone's responses to my question (on another thread). They basically all said that they have tried tons of medications, never found one that worked, and now they feel mentally slowed down and not as sharp as they used to be, which is my #1 fear, because that will affect the quality of my life for the rest of my life... because I won't be able to be successful in my field if I am not a quick thinker.
> 
> Obviously if you are suicidal or your life is just completely awful, medication is necessary. I assumed people reading this would understand that. Everyone has to do their own cost/benefit analysis. Unfortunately for me, my paranoia/hypochondraism will bias my analyses in favor of the safer side. I'm sure my parents would want me to just take the medication because it would be worth the risks, but I disagree.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. If your anxiety is not that debiliating you should definetly try without drugs.


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## Xande (Jul 18, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> Fair enough. If your anxiety is not that debiliating you should definetly try without drugs.


Agree with this quote.

I believe therapy should be tried out first. If this does not help, maybe meds can come into the picture, but of course continuing with therapy.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Your Something Else..........*



InnerPeace said:


> Man, this is getting tiresome. Can't you read? I acknowledged severel times that there is no medical test or scientific proof to diagnose mental illnesses.
> 
> I can't believe the things you mentioned as alternatives. Fish oil? Vitamins? Are you nuts? If it was that simple to cure meantal disorders we wouldn't need any further research.
> Exercise? Does exercise cure anything? It helps cope with symtoms, but it's far from a cure or anything close.
> ...


I had to constantly repeat myself because your not listening ok. Please provide me with scientific proof and medical test and you still can't. I never said anything about any alternatives until you brought it up and those are only some that I mention up above there are many more. Sometimes it is that simple; I understand not for everybody but people should give those a try first before going to harmful meds. Obviously your stuck in your own ways and brainwashed by drug companies so I feel really bad you. Ask your doctor, "How many patients has he/she cured?" the answer is probably none. I never said anything about a *CURE* again your making stuff up you need stop doing that because it's not making you look good.

Since you brought up cures not me here is video on psychiatrist finding cures/test on disorders.





Youtube tells a lot with picture and sound that is why I use them and I never said they were scientific; I can tell you haven't been watching all that I have been posting because your stuck in your own ways. You only choose what you want to hear and ignore all the other facts; again feel sorry for you.

There are far greater risks involved with *PRESCRIBED MEDICATIONS *than any alternative treatment. Medications when entered into your system is *FOREIGN *to your body so your body tries to fight it. How many suicide and homicides has been involved for alternative treatment? How many suicides and homicides were involved in* ANTIDEPRESSANTS? *Now do you see my point.

Drug companies and doctors should be accused of inhumane behavior. The experiment tells a lot about how psychiatric hospital admits patients in please don't be so naive. That's mostly all they want to do is generate profits; you think they want to cure you? AGAIN YOUR THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP CURING PEOPLE NOT ME. I want you name some statistics that says these harmful drugs have *CURED* people..............I'm waiting. Exactly. Did you know that pharma companies make more *PROFITS *than the top fortune 500 companies *COMBINED? * There is no money in the cure watch the Bill Maher video I linked at the bottom.

Exactly so you have been doing research on psychiatry in the 1950's "shocking" isn't it? You think psychiatry has changed that much since then? hmmmmmmmmm? Instead of using dangerous experiments and such on patient they are now using you guessed it *HARMFUL MEDICATIONS *to do the exact same thing. Remember the DSM was voted into the books by a group of psychiatrist is a fact remember in the first DSM homosexuality was considered A *DISORDER. *These drugs have killed many people that is a fact again point my conspiracy theory instead of pointing it out as you go; your making things up.

I can express my views alright and if you don't like it than don't read/respond to my post but yet you keep reading and responding. You don't tell me where I can and can't go see this is the problem. I am having success with fish oil minus the side effects way better than harmful meds.

Sometimes new meds horror stories take quite some years for it to be *REPORTED. *Most of the time doctors just brush it off if you can read some past post from patients on here. Doctors either increase dosage or try a different med altogether than the problem wouldn't be reported as a result the public wouldn't know. Remember doctors/psychiatrist are receiving *KICKBACKS *from drug companies that is a *FACT*; refute that. You need to grow up and reading my post this time and refuting my facts because you just seem to ignore them.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

It makes no sense to further discuss this topic with you. You simply don't seem to suffer enough from your condition. Once you maybe do and your ego is broken you will be glad to have access to pharmaceutical drugs. Until then go with supps, herbs (which, btw, are not any safer than drugs), brainwave, exercise and whatnot. You don't seem to realize that it is YOU who has been brainwashed by anti-pharma hysteria. You are probably the kind of person who also immediately jumped the 9/11 conspiracy theories bandwagon.

But I am serious when I say: Best of luck!

Can we please close this thread now?


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

Xande said:


> Agree with this quote.
> 
> I believe therapy should be tried out first. If this does not help, maybe meds can come into the picture, but of course continuing with therapy.


That's true. Lots of anxiety disorders respond exceptionally well to CBT when done by an experienced and skillful psychologist. And most of all, it's side effects free when done properly. Drugs should really be the last resort, because they usually require long-term or even life-long treatment.


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

Im on life long meds , the alternative is death, a no brainer really. Me an my 1 brain cell are cool with that , good days bad days, never the same. So what if i miss out on somethings, i gain on other,s that the normals miss .


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

foxy said:


> Im on life long meds , the alternative is death,...


And that's how the situation is for many mentally ill who can't cope with their disease on their own right. A life and death decision. And then the decision is an easy one as you said foxy.
Btw, cute puppy


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> Fair enough. If your anxiety is not that debiliating you should definetly try without drugs.


That's not really what I meant (my mistake I'll explain differently). I think mostly everyone with social anxiety can "live" with it. My anxiety is very severe and debilitating (I scored a 100 on the Liebowitz Scale). For people who are suicidal or can't leave the house or walk into a grocery store, medication may be necessary. What I'm saying is that I would rather hold out, and deal with the pain, and just hope that i can get better ASAP without medication, so when I am better I will have a fully functioning brain and will not have the "fog" that many other people who have taken these meds complain about.

What I'm worried about is the idea that people who live with depression or social anxiety for a long time end up having problems with their brains without medication too. Obviously most of us have trouble concentrating on school/work becasue we are so preoccupied. I don't know much about this, but it makes sense. We don't experience a lot of things that regular people do so our brains will be somewhat less developed, at least in those areas. If anyone knows more about this please share. The trade off between medication and no medication may be a whole new story.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Stop reponding then......*



InnerPeace said:


> It makes no sense to further discuss this topic with you. You simply don't seem to suffer enough from your condition. Once you maybe do and your ego is broken you will be glad to have access to pharmaceutical drugs. Until then go with supps, herbs (which, btw, are not any safer than drugs), brainwave, exercise and whatnot. You don't seem to realize that it is YOU who has been brainwashed by anti-pharma hysteria. You are probably the kind of person who also immediately jumped the 9/11 conspiracy theories bandwagon.
> 
> But I am serious when I say: Best of luck!
> 
> Can we please close this thread now?


Again you try to wiggle your way out of refuting my facts; man you are something else. I suffered a lot; failed classes due to meds, relationships, networking, friends, etc. I use to be on those harmful meds buddy thats how I know they are harmful and* I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE TRY READING OTHER POSTS INSTEAD OF IGNORING THEM LIKE YOU USUALLY DO. *The human mind wants to make things difficult but in reality things are pretty simple. According to a Harvard Study they said that exercising is just as effective if not more than paxil. Nothing in life is easy you must work at something in order to achieve results. Medication is like a "quick-fix" and if your fine with that then be all means. Your the one who is* BRAINWASHED* by doctors and big pharma companies. Bill Maher seems to agree with me. Again please quote me on conspiracy theories I gave you nothing but facts your the one who needs more evidence; you keep ignoring my evidence so that is your own fault.

Your the one who needs the luck. When the harmful effects kick-in don't come crying on this forum alright? Peace:yes


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

yes indeed, everyone has individual responses to medications so saying long term effects of antidepressants are worse than nothing, that is similar IMO to heart pills and aspirin (which my dad takes) being bad long term when without them he would probably die from heart failure. You would not deny someone with diabetes insulin on a daily basis? 

When your mind feels like its in one million pieces its important to seek medical help


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

Arisa1536 said:


> yes indeed, everyone has individual responses to medications so saying long term effects of antidepressants are worse than nothing, that is similar IMO to heart pills and aspirin (which my dad takes) being bad long term when without them he would probably die from heart failure. You would not deny someone with diabetes insulin on a daily basis?
> 
> When your mind feels like its in one million pieces its important to seek medical help


Ok I understand what your trying to say but your comparing two different things. Heart disease, diabetes, cancer and such are actual diseases that can be tested in labs, blood work, medical test,etc but with mental disorders they cannot be medically tested so to compare the two would be nonsense. So when you say your dad needs his heart pills or he just may die is most likely accurate but with mental disorders you cannot say so; you only feel you may die or your mind is in a million pieces but there are no medical test to back that up. Of course I wouldn't deny anyone with an actual disease like diabetes that can be medically tested their insulin. I'm not saying that anxiety and such are not real because I do have issues with these type of feelings but when psychiatrist vote to a label these symptoms just to make huge profits is outrageous. Remember there are alternatives .


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

well I have to respectfully disagree
Beofre medication I could not talk, literally. I had Social phobia so bad I was agoraphobic and unable to even speak to my family 

As soon as I started taking regular antidepressants and other short term medications, my social skills improved. Granted I have a mild social anxiety as I worry what people think and can obsess over these things but my problem is not lack of communication or being socially inept but I was before medication and therapy

i have also tried natural products and they can be more harmful, especially on your digestive system AND they do not work very well, like St johns wort and valerian etc :no:no

you may find most people on here will disagree to an extent that long term use of medication is harmful, I mean you will need it should you live long enough to be living in a retirement home one day

Depression can kill people, it brings on physical disorders and then there are the eating disorders which cause physical damage to the intestines and teeth through vomiting and losing nutrients your body needs as does anorexia and that kills people, and its classified as a mental illness so yes mental illness DOES kill and my eating disorder which sent me into physical distress and hospital procedures was started because of extreme anxiety


if your depression/anxiety or social phobia is not so bad and you have not had a break down or lost someone you loved then perhaps you would not understand other peoples needs for medication

its not our place to judge what, who and why when it comes to people taking medication for mental illness. did it occur to you that it helps people like me getting out of bed each morning?


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Your ignoring facts.*



Arisa1536 said:


> well I have to respectfully disagree
> Beofre medication I could not talk, literally. I had Social phobia so bad I was agoraphobic and unable to even speak to my family
> 
> As soon as I started taking regular antidepressants and other short term medications, my social skills improved. Granted I have a mild social anxiety as I worry what people think and can obsess over these things but my problem is not lack of communication or being socially inept but I was before medication and therapy
> ...


I understand what your saying but I would have to disagree with you. Yes it may help someone with mental disorders at the beginning but later on it will deteriorate that person with harmful side effects (ruining relationships, grades in school, violent behavior, maniac behavior. etc). I know because I have been on these harmful medications and I too thought they were helping me but when I took a step back to look at my behavior and life years later I soon realized that my life was going down hill because of these meds; my life was pretty good before going on these meds. I know for a fact that I am not the only one who has had these similar experiences.

The medication did the same thing to me at the beginning; made me more talkative, outgoing, and such but those came with consequences. I was too maniac, bad grades in school, too out of touch with reality. The side effects started hitting me hard with being severely drowsy, sexual side effects, violent behavior, more suicidal, more depressed. Depression may kill people but could you compare those results with antidepressants that have killed people? Do you see my point now? School shootings and violent crimes, suicides associated with these harmful medications.

I do not understand; your saying that alternatives are harmful (alternatives does not consist of only natural products) but what about antidepressants they are far more harmful than naturals but yet you haven't said one single thing about it; I find this quite disturbing. I find that fish oil and vitamins works far better than harmful meds. According to some studies placebo works just as good if not better than antidepressants so you can look that up yourself. :afr

I don't understand some of your comments; antidepressants are *FOREIGN *to the body so your body will do its best to fight against it. Remember these drugs don't decrease suicide if anything they *INCREASE *suicide that is why drug companies put that warning label on their meds.

Remember antidepressants kill people along with harmful side effects while fattening drug companies and doctors wallets. Excuse me but I had it pretty bad too growing up; I've had plenty of break downs, lost loved ones and other bad events in my life. I didn't need medication before and I definitely don't need them now.

You seem to ignore all the horrific facts about antidepressants so I hope you open your eyes to them. I wish you the best of luck because you need it. Take care of yourself. :no


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

*dyslexic foxy*

Number 1 for me is at school you are aready srewed in the brain with life an growing up into an adult. i wouldent pesonally give meds to kids unless it a life long illness. Next you talk out your a*** about meds. for some people who should be on meds an are not  K I L L  themself, a pretty seriouse illness dont you think. I would not take meds when in my teens because i thought i was not menally ill i was just a wild nutball kid. I still had to hide away in the bad times but hey im a tough guy f*** all wrong with me. I has 3 breakdowns an actually worked at my constrution job ,till each time i nuked an burned out. I started to take meds ,when i finally reolised there was something wrong with my brain. I should have took them when my doc said years before. Now 4 breakdows later an unable to work through burning myself out. I know i need meds, have you ever been hospitlized in a mental unit i have, then come back an say nobody need,s meds. You dont need them if your just pissed off , MENTALLY ILL is what we a talking ,a real bad ****ty illness that needs med,s.:yes:yes:yes


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Please Grow Up*



foxy said:


> Number 1 for me is at school you are aready srewed in the brain with life an growing up into an adult. i wouldent pesonally give meds to kids unless it a life long illness. Next you talk out your a*** about meds. for some people who should be on meds an are not  K I L L  themself, a pretty seriouse illness dont you think. I would not take meds when in my teens because i thought i was not menally ill i was just a wild nutball kid. I still had to hide away in the bad times but hey im a tough guy f*** all wrong with me. I has 3 breakdowns an actually worked at my constrution job ,till each time i nuked an burned out. I started to take meds ,when i finally reolised there was something wrong with my brain. I should have took them when my doc said years before. Now 4 breakdows later an unable to work through burning myself out. I know i need meds, have you ever been hospitlized in a mental unit i have, then come back an say nobody need,s meds. You dont need them if your just pissed off , MENTALLY ILL is what we a talking ,a real bad ****ty illness that needs med,s.:yes:yes:yes


First off, your comments are all over the place so you might want to organize it better so people can understand. Hey buddy I was on these medications for many years so I know what I'm talking about; you want to know who "talks out of their a**?" Doctors/psychiatrist do. The ones I've spoken too have never been on these harmful medications and they don't run any medical test to diagnose people; they just use their subjective opinions. Antidepressants increase suicides that is why big pharma companies put that suicide label on the meds; you need to read my post. I was so out of touch with reality while on these harmful meds that I got fired from past jobs. I should've taken them years ago. If you need them and want to be dependent on them for the rest of your life than be all means; I for one will not go down that route of torture. Explore other alternatives you never know you might find something that works far better than harmful medications. Answer this question what medical test have doctors run on you to* DIAGNOSE *you? You know like how doctors ran tests on cancer and hiv/aids patients. :roll


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

QuietBoy99 said:


> First off, your comments are all over the place so you might want to organize it better so people can understand. Hey buddy I was on these medications for many years so I know what I'm talking about; you want to know who "talks out of their a**?" Doctors/psychiatrist do. The ones I've spoken too have never been on these harmful medications and they don't run any medical test to diagnose people; they just use their subjective opinions. Antidepressants increase suicides that is why big pharma companies put that suicide label on the meds; you need to read my post. I was so out of touch with reality while on these harmful meds that I got fired from past jobs. I should've taken them years ago. If you need them and want to be dependent on them for the rest of your life than be all means; I for one will not go down that route of torture. Explore other alternatives you never know you might find something that works far better than harmful medications. Answer this question what medical test have doctors run on you to* DIAGNOSE *you? You know like how doctors ran tests on cancer and hiv/aids patients. :roll


There are know bloodtest,s ,to show if your bipola, clinical depressed or takeing the piss. Not much is known about mental illness, other than you telling your doc how you feel, or being found curled in a ball crying. An the tell tail sign,s of different kinds of mental illness, to many to educate you. How many people do you think would have comitted suicide without drug,s in this day an age, thousands me for one.I told you i didnt take meds for years , i was told to as i was ill, but i didnt an ended up trying to top myself, an i would have if i hadnt puked the meds that i had unused still in box, an got found out by my family.Mabye you wernt ill enough for meds ,an made yourself ill be being stupid an going on them. The doctor didnt force you like they didnt force me . Stop getting mad at everone an his dog ,for makeing your own mistake an going on meds when not needed


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## Joseph88 (Aug 5, 2011)

Well in my case AD's have destroyed my sex drive - there is just nothing left. And I have been off them for over 4 months. Luckily this doesn't happen to everyone - but often no one warns you about this possibility!
It is cruel but the truth is a lot of people suffer side effects which in the long term only make things worse. Try keeping your relationship happy when you're 24 and you have no sexual desire.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Joseph88 said:


> Well in my case AD's have destroyed my sex drive - there is just nothing left. And I have been off them for over 4 months. Luckily this doesn't happen to everyone - but often no one warns you about this possibility!
> It is cruel but the truth is a lot of people suffer side effects which in the long term only make things worse. Try keeping your relationship happy when you're 24 and you have no sexual desire.


I know exactly how you feel, and sexual side effects are a common side effect that can get worse over time. When I was on effexor, it was not so bad, it just took forever to have an orgasm. But paxil!!! wwwwweeeeeewwww thats another story! I had almost NO libido at all, at age 23!!! Also these drugs are known to reduce sperm count, cause the DNA in our sperm to be mutated (possible cause of birth defects or general problems with your child?), and erectile dysfunction!


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Arisa1536 said:


> yes indeed, everyone has individual responses to medications so saying long term effects of antidepressants are worse than nothing, that is similar IMO to heart pills and aspirin (which my dad takes) being bad long term when without them he would probably die from heart failure. You would not deny someone with diabetes insulin on a daily basis?
> 
> When your mind feels like its in one million pieces its important to seek medical help


This is a common misconception I come across a lot: comparing diabetes and other illnesses with anxiety. Mainly, most doctors will say "well you anxiety/depression is a disease just like diabetes and you need to take drugs in order to live normal. Flat out wrong! One can easily use a functional, orthomolecular, or hollistic approach that in many cases can find the REAL cause of your suffering. In the most sever cases a drug should be used, but only as a temporary solution. Working with a functional medicine appoach, over time one can be taken off the drugs and brought back to health.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

I've been on psychtropuc drugs since the beginning of 2006 all types of antianxiety antidepressants and antipsychotics all had its pros and cons but when your coping skills are outweighed by the suffering or distress than I would rather have the pill but that's my opinion on this thread its supposed to be for entertainment purposes not a substitution for medical advice. Most of the time medication in this case psychotropic drugs help maybe 30 percent and the rest is up to your brain. Therapy exercise and nutrition I've felt much better with exercise and a healthy diet than a antidepressants severe depression may require prescription medication because people nay have trouble even getting out of bed or too anxious to leave the house I feel like I don't need my medication after being on it for five years but I start feeling worse again so I'm afraid I might need meds for life good luck to those on long term treatments because it sucks to have all these side effects and horrible withdrawal there's always different ways to treat symptoms of any illness whether it be self help exercise or nutrition


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> I can't believe the things you mentioned as alternatives. Fish oil? Vitamins? Are you nuts? If it was that simple to cure meantal disorders we wouldn't need any further research.
> Exercise? Does exercise cure anything? It helps cope with symtoms, but it's far from a cure or anything close.
> Positive thinking? Laughable. That's like telling a mentally ill person to finally "man up". Totally ridiculous. The inablity to think positively is an inherent part of most mental diseases!
> Brainwave therapy? I yet have to see anybody who cured his mental illness with that. Or did it cure you? Obviously not. And do you think alternative methods are safer and carry no risks? Far from it.


I can't believe that you seem so smart yet are so closed minded, ignorant, and completely oblivious to the facts of alternative therapies when it comes to treating anxiety:no. And please, my drug-loving friend, do not talk about cures because you are very well aware that drugs WILL NEVER EVER cure anything! And lastly, alternative methods are not only safer, but in some cases more effective than mind altering drugs. You seem smart, but your obsession with drugs is sort of sick and what really gets me is you are here promoting drugs use yet you admittedly said you are not using antidepressants but only a blood pressure drug to control your anxiety. Go figure!

The fish oil? ohhhh boy do you have a lot to learn from that! Do some research, there are many articles in psychology journals talking about how fish oil worked wonders for people suffering from a number of conditions. You can easily see how useful it is by the number of individuals offering FREE (something you are probably not aware of in your drug business) advice, help, and support for people suffering from anxiety and depression. Almost all of these utilize the powerful healing powers of omega 3 fish oil. But guess what, I will tell you a little secret.......shshhhhhh.....ITS NOT ABLE TO BE PATENTED!! Same with lithium orotate, a wonderful, natural antidepressant that is simply a mineral, yet has helped so many people deal with the suffering. Again I ask you, take a step back, open your mind, and stop putting so much faith in drugs because they will never heal anything!

P.S. I still need to respond to that long a** post you sent me a few days ago, just started school in the 22nd so have been so busy. Nice day!


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

*dyslexic foxy*

look lets look at the facts , the people complaining about meds , have never been seriously ill enough to have took them. The suicide warning on meds is simple , when you first start a med trail the meds make you feel worse for the first few weeks as you brain an body ajust to the new invader in you system. There for suicide is incressed in you sub consiouse,take a look on the back of a pack of parasetomol an look at the side effect,s you can get from an every day product. Alternative meds , go on bang them in you, nere on every one interact with another,,st johns wort try that with a med, an you will be dead in days with serotonin syndrome, on its own it wount cure a mouse of depression let alone a bipolar patient.Plants an alternative meds kill more people than meds , because you mix an match you own like a mad scientist, most of the alternative meds your body produces itself for free.SKUNK thats alternative plant life, bang 20 spliff,s a day in you an see what happens to your brain. Side effects are bad from meds no dought about it, but death without meds in more common. Sex is the main downer with med,s then try an find one more med friendly , like remeron, that just makes you fat as a pig , so you dont have to worry about sex as know one will want you to jump them.I am 60 an take 100mg sertraline an 4mg of lorazapam a day an , sex is ok cool with my pork sword, a little slow on the orgasm , but ladies thats a good thing for use guy,s as you well know.Did you know they give a small amout of antidepressants to people with major premature ejaculation prob,s so whats bad for you is cool for them. You can argue forever at the rights an wrongs of meds, but you can read all about them on the internet before going to the doc, So if your not mind numbing depressed dont ask for meds or it will end in tears. An for us with real mental illness , we put up with side effect an dont windge. .Meds are dangerouse if not ill, you wouldent have your leg in plaster if not broke, so why blaim meds if not really ill. Admit YOU screwed up not the doctor or the med companies,YOU:yes:yes:yes


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Make Some Sense*



foxy said:


> look lets look at the facts , the people complaining about meds , have never been seriously ill enough to have took them. The suicide warning on meds is simple , when you first start a med trail the meds make you feel worse for the first few weeks as you brain an body ajust to the new invader in you system. There for suicide is incressed in you sub consiouse,take a look on the back of a pack of parasetomol an look at the side effect,s you can get from an every day product. Alternative meds , go on bang them in you, nere on every one interact with another,,st johns wort try that with a med, an you will be dead in days with serotonin syndrome, on its own it wount cure a mouse of depression let alone a bipolar patient.Plants an alternative meds kill more people than meds , because you mix an match you own like a mad scientist, most of the alternative meds your body produces itself for free.SKUNK thats alternative plant life, bang 20 spliff,s a day in you an see what happens to your brain. Side effects are bad from meds no dought about it, but death without meds in more common. Sex is the main downer with med,s then try an find one more med friendly , like remeron, that just makes you fat as a pig , so you dont have to worry about sex as know one will want you to jump them.I am 60 an take 100mg sertraline an 4mg of lorazapam a day an , sex is ok cool with my pork sword, a little slow on the orgasm , but ladies thats a good thing for use guy,s as you well know.Did you know they give a small amout of antidepressants to people with major premature ejaculation prob,s so whats bad for you is cool for them. You can argue forever at the rights an wrongs of meds, but you can read all about them on the internet before going to the doc, So if your not mind numbing depressed dont ask for meds or it will end in tears. An for us with real mental illness , we put up with side effect an dont windge. .Meds are dangerouse if not ill, you wouldent have your leg in plaster if not broke, so why blaim meds if not really ill. Admit YOU screwed up not the doctor or the med companies,YOU:yes:yes:yes


Antidepressants do increase suicides again that is why the FDA put the warning label on there. If your already suicidal you would want to increase suicides with meds? Does that make any sense? Your body will fight against antidepressants because as you put it's an "invader" in your system. "Suicide is increase in your subconscious"? Your not making any sense; please do some editing on your comments before you post. You keep mentioning natural products kill people well if that is true compare that to antidepressants that have killed people yet you failed to mention this; very disturbing. Mix and Match? I would like see your sources on this. Antidepressants have been known to be involved in school shooting, suicides, homicides and such so could you please tell me a story of when natural products caused all of that?

You mention curing people well how many people have been cured with antidepressants and how many psychiatrist/doctors have cured people? I suffered a lot growing up who are you to say what is real "mental illness" or not? WHAT MEDICAL TEST HAVE DOCTORS RAN ON YOU? I can tell you have been brain washed by doctors and drug companies so when your health begins to deteriorate don't come on here crying. :no


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> I can't believe that you seem so smart yet are so closed minded, ignorant, and completely oblivious to the facts of alternative therapies when it comes to treating anxiety:no. And please, my drug-loving friend, do not talk about cures because you are very well aware that drugs WILL NEVER EVER cure anything! And lastly, alternative methods are not only safer, but in some cases more effective than mind altering drugs. You seem smart, but your obsession with drugs is sort of sick and what really gets me is you are here promoting drugs use yet you admittedly said you are not using antidepressants but only a blood pressure drug to control your anxiety. Go figure!
> 
> The fish oil? ohhhh boy do you have a lot to learn from that! Do some research, there are many articles in psychology journals talking about how fish oil worked wonders for people suffering from a number of conditions. You can easily see how useful it is by the number of individuals offering FREE (something you are probably not aware of in your drug business) advice, help, and support for people suffering from anxiety and depression. Almost all of these utilize the powerful healing powers of omega 3 fish oil. But guess what, I will tell you a little secret.......shshhhhhh.....ITS NOT ABLE TO BE PATENTED!! Same with lithium orotate, a wonderful, natural antidepressant that is simply a mineral, yet has helped so many people deal with the suffering. Again I ask you, take a step back, open your mind, and stop putting so much faith in drugs because they will never heal anything!
> 
> P.S. I still need to respond to that long a** post you sent me a few days ago, just started school in the 22nd so have been so busy. Nice day!


I am on 5mg Lexapro with almost no side-effects for years. Is great for depression, less so for SA. But SA is also not what I took it for. I do take a Multi with no obvious results and I feel no worse when I don't take it for some days or even weeks. I tried many supps and herbs over the years:

Huperzine A
5-HTP
Alpha GPC
Choline Bitartrate
Kava Kava
Maca
Guarana
Koffein
Phenylethylamine
L-DOPA
L-Tyrosine
Fish-Oil (What a joke)

Inositol
Lithium Orotate
Melatonin
Creatine
Taurine
Horny Goat Weed (Epimedium)
L-Carnosine
Acetyl-L-Carnitine
L-Arginine
Glycine
DL-Phenylalanine
St. John's Wort
Multi-Vitamins (Life-Force Multiple)
Gingko Extract (Ginkgold 60mg)

...with very poor results (only some of them for anxiety and depression, mostly for nootropic purposes). They are simply not strong enough.
Suicide on AD meds is an ultra-rare although real "side effect", but it happens in people who had suicidal thoughts/tendencies beforehand.

I suggest to open an "Alternative methods" forum with bruno and QuiteBoy99 as mods where others can benefit from their wisdom. You guys obviously lack even the most fundamental pharmacology knowledge and it makes no sense to lead a discussion about meds here any longer. :no
Keep on munching your supps in the grams range and talk yourself into believe this is side-effects free long-term. In particular your digestive system will thank you one day.

And bruno, don't even bother to respond to my last posts. I'm not the least interested to read a single line of it. You and QuietBoy will be on my ignore list after submitting this post.


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## Joseph88 (Aug 5, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> I know exactly how you feel, and sexual side effects are a common side effect that can get worse over time. When I was on effexor, it was not so bad, it just took forever to have an orgasm. But paxil!!! wwwwweeeeeewwww thats another story! I had almost NO libido at all, at age 23!!! Also these drugs are known to reduce sperm count, cause the DNA in our sperm to be mutated (possible cause of birth defects or general problems with your child?), and erectile dysfunction!


Yes! I took effexor before the anafranil which finally stopped the panic attacks, but the effexor was better as far as side-effects go. It just didn't do anything for my panic. How long after you quit paxil did everything return to normal for you? If I could just believe that it simply takes time, things would be a lot better. Now I'm worried about permanent damage.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> I am on 5mg Lexapro with almost no side-effects for years. Is great for depression, less so for SA. But SA is also not what I took it for. I do take a Multi with no obvious results and I feel no worse when I don't take it for some days or even weeks. I tried many supps and herbs over the years:
> 
> Huperzine A
> 5-HTP
> ...


Ignore list? Are you running away? Defend the safety of your drugs my friend! Do not come here, promote drugs, then run away when the going gets tough. The bottom line is that the drugs can help those who are seriously ill, but to put so much faith in chemically suppressing symptoms is pretty stupid because in that way you will never get better, but always be on a variety of drugs and dosages. It is well known that antidepressants are disease-inducing drugs and the fact that you promote them says a lot about what you really know about healing and actually getting well as opposed to being forever imprisoned by the bizarre, dangerous, and often debilitating world of antidepressant drugs. Open your mind, take a step back and ask yourself, "what does it really mean to get well?" There is a multifaceted, holistic approach that is usually complex but, nevertheless, actually healing. We are complex beings and we often have a multitude of reasons that led to our suffering and just taking a pill will only work for a time being.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Joseph88 said:


> Yes! I took effexor before the anafranil which finally stopped the panic attacks, but the effexor was better as far as side-effects go. It just didn't do anything for my panic. How long after you quit paxil did everything return to normal for you? If I could just believe that it simply takes time, things would be a lot better. Now I'm worried about permanent damage.


Honestly, it did take a while but my libido did come back. Since the side effects of paxil were so bothersome to me, I tried to get off them (this was my first withdrawal experience), but once the dosage was decreased then the horrible side effects came about. So I went back on effexor and my libido came back slowly. I then got off effexor and was off all drugs for a few months and my sex drive came roaring back. Just remember that what was damaged by the drugs can be repaired with time and other healing approaches. Our bodies are always rebuilding themselves and I am sure you will get better sooner or later. Keep a positive mind set as our minds are extremely powerful.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

foxy said:


> look lets look at the facts , the people complaining about meds , have never been seriously ill enough to have took them. The suicide warning on meds is simple , when you first start a med trail the meds make you feel worse for the first few weeks as you brain an body ajust to the new invader in you system. There for suicide is incressed in you sub consiouse,take a look on the back of a pack of parasetomol an look at the side effect,s you can get from an every day product. Alternative meds , go on bang them in you, nere on every one interact with another,,st johns wort try that with a med, an you will be dead in days with serotonin syndrome, on its own it wount cure a mouse of depression let alone a bipolar patient.Plants an alternative meds kill more people than meds , because you mix an match you own like a mad scientist, most of the alternative meds your body produces itself for free.SKUNK thats alternative plant life, bang 20 spliff,s a day in you an see what happens to your brain. Side effects are bad from meds no dought about it, but death without meds in more common. Sex is the main downer with med,s then try an find one more med friendly , like remeron, that just makes you fat as a pig , so you dont have to worry about sex as know one will want you to jump them.I am 60 an take 100mg sertraline an 4mg of lorazapam a day an , sex is ok cool with my pork sword, a little slow on the orgasm , but ladies thats a good thing for use guy,s as you well know.Did you know they give a small amout of antidepressants to people with major premature ejaculation prob,s so whats bad for you is cool for them. You can argue forever at the rights an wrongs of meds, but you can read all about them on the internet before going to the doc, So if your not mind numbing depressed dont ask for meds or it will end in tears. An for us with real mental illness , we put up with side effect an dont windge. .Meds are dangerouse if not ill, you wouldent have your leg in plaster if not broke, so why blaim meds if not really ill. Admit YOU screwed up not the doctor or the med companies,YOU:yes:yes:yes


What? Seriously you need a reality check...


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

bruno2006 said:


> What? Seriously you need a reality check...


 No i just gave you one


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Make Some Sense*



foxy said:


> No i just gave you one


Your message made no sense and some of the information you gave were inaccurate. :no


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

On a more general note, bruno and QuietBoy behave like medieval herbal witches who apparently wear blinders and don't have the intellect to objectively discuss a topic. I get the impression that we are dealing with forum trolls who deliberately provocate and selectively ignore others' statements to defend their point. If I was a mod I would have already banned you for the lack of tolerance towards others opinion. People like you add no value to a forum like this.

Everyone in this thread argueing pro drugs also admitted that drugs are not always necessary, not a cure and far away from a perfect solution. You guys, on the other hand, know only one opinion, i.e. drugs are evil, big pharma is evil, long-term damage is inevitable for everyone on such drugs and everyone who think differently needs a "reality check" because of the overwhelming proof you have to offer (which other than a few meaningless youtube videos is non-existant). No matter the success other report with using drugs and the fact that some even owe their life to them! What a presumptuous attitude to simply ignore all that!
It's really like talking to a piece of bread.

@mod Can we please close this thread now? This is getting out of hand and the thread is getting filled with more and more pages of useless information.

Over and out.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Keep Running...........*



InnerPeace said:


> I am on 5mg Lexapro with almost no side-effects for years. Is great for depression, less so for SA. But SA is also not what I took it for. I do take a Multi with no obvious results and I feel no worse when I don't take it for some days or even weeks. I tried many supps and herbs over the years:
> 
> Huperzine A
> 5-HTP
> ...


You probably didn't give those naturals anytime to work instead you wanted a "quick-fix" with medications. You keep mentioning digestive system; again antidepressants causes more side effects which in most cases are more harmful. Antidepressants may cause *heart attacks, strokes, nausea, vomiting, increase weight*, etc compared to supposedly digestive problems with naturals? Wow you are something else. Remember the school shootings, suicides, homicides and such; aren't these serious? You make it seem like it's nothing by ignoring it; again very disturbing.

A lot cases are involved where patients on antidepressants during clinical trials have committed suicide over patients taking placebo; this shows a show indication that the antidepressants were causing the suicide behavior. Drugs companies cover this up when they present this information to the public and FDA for approval and this is a fact not conspiracy because we can prove it. You can look it up yourself mate. 

Keep running away when strong facts are presented to you. You might want to see your doctor again soon.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Stop Running..........*



InnerPeace said:


> On a more general note, bruno and QuietBoy behave like medieval herbal witches who apparently wear blinders and don't have the intellect to objectively discuss a topic. I get the impression that we are dealing with forum trolls who deliberately provocate and selectively ignore others' statements to defend their point. If I was a mod I would have already banned you for the lack of tolerance towards others opinion. People like you add no value to a forum like this.
> 
> Everyone in this thread argueing pro drugs also admitted that drugs are not always necessary, not a cure and far away from a perfect solution. You guys, on the other hand, know only one opinion, i.e. drugs are evil, big pharma is evil, long-term damage is inevitable for everyone on such drugs and everyone who think differently needs a "reality check" because of the overwhelming proof you have to offer (which other than a few meaningless youtube videos is non-existant). No matter the success other report with using drugs and the fact that some even owe their life to them! What a presumptuous attitude to simply ignore all that!
> It's really like talking to a piece of bread.
> ...


I thought I was on your ignore list? If anyone is trolling here it's you not me or bruno2006. We're being assertive when we discuss our opinions and views on this topic but you keep attacking our character so you need get banned from this forum. Your the who ignores the post on people suffering because of these medications so that is your own fault not ours.

Your saying* everyone* is arguing pro drugs? See that tells me that you haven't been reading the other post or you have been just ignoring them. I see plenty of other people posting about their cons against medication. You are something else. *YOUR THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP THE SUBJECT OF CURING PEOPLE NOT US. *How many people have these antidepressants "cured"? How many patients has your psychiatrist/doctor "cured"? Ask them that. Youtube is an avenue where *FACTS *are presented and if you read my past post that I have posted articles. Where is your proof of a "chemical imbalance"? What medical test have doctors ran on you TO *DIAGNOSE *you? Answer those questions with *PROOF. *Where is your proof? Scientific proof.

Your not very opened minded because you refuse to hear others opinions. You want to close this thread? Here is a solution stop posting and don't come back. This thread is very popular as you can see from the views so let the public speak; you don't speak for them.


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

How many nutritin doctors an alternative meds doctors, have past any real medical diploma to say there legit, none my friend, because the medical profession dont reconise them. Most were burnt at the stake in the 16th century:yes Buddy you can call them quacks, because they have nothing to prove otherwise. Get your herbs an meds at holland an barret , dont pay some mad guy a forture to tell you what they can for free. The nutrition docs will run allergy tests , an 9 times out of 10 come out with a list as long as your arm. An everyone with no illness will get the same report if they take the same test. Now after paying for all the test, you start to treat loads of illness you didnt no you had ,an would not make a difference if you did as everyone has the same. Loads of different foods an supplements , no more the food you love . All because you payed some quack with no real medical experience to screw you over. Sure make a few changes in your life like stop smokeing , 7 out of 10 with anxierty smoke.Stop drinking so much , just have a couple of beers instead of a gallon. Cut out the greasy food, do exercize, there you go i told you all the nutrition things you need to know for free:yes.Now plant supplements the poppy, heroin lets all go on that ,its the top of the plant medication to cure anxierty so would you take that. Plus this suicide rate on meds keep commeing up in all your threads. If you go on meds, a good doctor should monitor you for any sign of things going wrong , an is at the end of a phone, as is the mental health hospital, you even get a number for a crisis team. The people who commit suicide on meds would have if not on them, thats just life an death in the world, they are already damaged beyond help. Sure some may be pushed over the edge, with first takeing meds ,But a good doc should tell if a person needs hospital before prescibeing anything.:yes


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Your message made no sense and some of the information you gave were inaccurate. :no


 you can find millions of threads like that, same as you can find drugs saved my life vids


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

foxy said:


> How many nutritin doctors an alternative meds doctors, have past any real medical diploma to say there legit, none my friend, because the medical profession dont reconise them. Most were burnt at the stake in the 16th century:yes Buddy you can call them quacks, because they have nothing to prove otherwise. Get your herbs an meds at holland an barret , dont pay some mad guy a forture to tell you what they can for free. The nutrition docs will run allergy tests , an 9 times out of 10 come out with a list as long as your arm. An everyone with no illness will get the same report if they take the same test. Now after paying for all the test, you start to treat loads of illness you didnt no you had ,an would not make a difference if you did as everyone has the same. Loads of different foods an supplements , no more the food you love . All because you payed some quack with no real medical experience to screw you over. Sure make a few changes in your life like stop smokeing , 7 out of 10 with anxierty smoke.Stop drinking so much , just have a couple of beers instead of a gallon. Cut out the greasy food, do exercize, there you go i told you all the nutrition things you need to know for free:yes.Now plant supplements the poppy, heroin lets all go on that ,its the top of the plant medication to cure anxierty so would you take that. Plus this suicide rate on meds keep commeing up in all your threads. If you go on meds, a good doctor should monitor you for any sign of things going wrong , an is at the end of a phone, as is the mental health hospital, you even get a number for a crisis team. The people who commit suicide on meds would have if not on them, thats just life an death in the world, they are already damaged beyond help. Sure some may be pushed over the edge, with first takeing meds ,But a good doc should tell if a person needs hospital before prescibeing anything.:yes


So true.

Trying to fight serious mental diseases with supplements and herbs is outright dangerous and irresponsible. It's like trying to heal lung cancer with high dose vitamin E. Pulling someone e.g. out of major depression with nutritional support is a ridiculous undertaking.
If anything of that helps you are most likely experiencing a placebo effect. Also it's very unnatural to consume mega-doses of vitamines. In no era of mankind have people consumed high doses of vitamins for long periods of time. So in which sense would this be a natural approach to healing a disease? There is also no long-term safety data.
Not to mention that you have to pay it all yourself. At least where I live these alternative approaches are -for good reason- not covered by health insurance. Nutritional docs pull your money out of your pocket much more than real docs do.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

One last thing to bruno2006 and QuiteBoy: 

Please compile a list of studies (at best with PubMed ID) which examined the long-term or short term detrimental effects of antidepressants on the human brain to support the credibility of your claims
I did post some and you didn't seem to bother. Now it's your turn. Youtube crap and unreferenced articles full of conjecture are not allowed. Only real studies (no case studies as these mean little when applied to the broad masses). Let's see what you guys can come up with. Most likely you don't even know what PubMed is. 
In a few days I will temporarily delete you from my ignore list and see what you came up with. If you found something I am happy to comment on it. Until then let's declare all your claims as false  C'mon guys! ;-)


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

InnerPeace said:


> So true.
> 
> Trying to fight serious mental diseases with supplements and herbs is outright dangerous and irresponsible. It's like trying to heal lung cancer with high dose vitamin E. Pulling someone e.g. out of major depression with nutritional support is a ridiculous undertaking.
> If anything of that helps you are most likely experiencing a placebo effect. Also it's very unnatural to consume mega-doses of vitamines. In no era of mankind have people consumed high doses of vitamins for long periods of time. So in which sense would this be a natural approach to healing a disease? There is also no long-term safety data.
> Not to mention that you have to pay it all yourself. At least where I live these alternative approaches are -for good reason- not covered by health insurance. Nutritional docs pull your money out of your pocket much more than real docs do.


On the money with that one, you 2 guys have just been screwed


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> So true.
> 
> Trying to fight serious mental diseases with supplements and herbs is outright dangerous and irresponsible. It's like trying to heal lung cancer with high dose vitamin E. Pulling someone e.g. out of major depression with nutritional support is a ridiculous undertaking.
> If anything of that helps you are most likely experiencing a placebo effect. Also it's very unnatural to consume mega-doses of vitamines. In no era of mankind have people consumed high doses of vitamins for long periods of time. So in which sense would this be a natural approach to healing a disease? There is also no long-term safety data.
> Not to mention that you have to pay it all yourself. At least where I live these alternative approaches are -for good reason- not covered by health insurance. Nutritional docs pull your money out of your pocket much more than real docs do.


Yes it is true that the insurance companies do not pay for many alternative health practitioners, but this is slowly but surely beginning to change as people realize that there are better, safer, more affordable (in the long run) ways to treat illnesses such as depression and anxiety. Another big reason why most alternative doctors are not part of insurance is because they CHOSE this route. Acupuncture is now accepted by many insurance companies, healing touch therapy by some, and a few others. Why? Because these therapies offer proven benefits. Here in Houston we have some of the best hospitals in the country, and guess what? MD Anderson cancer center uses Reiki as a complimentary medicine....because it WORKS!

You can keep belittling alternative treatments in favor of mind altering, disease-inducing drugs, but seriously you are the one ignoring the fact that health is not all about drug therapy, but rather healing all aspects: mind, body, and spirit. There are a few well known, VERY effective psychiatrists here in the USA who utilize other forms of treatment for severe mental illness and have had astounding results (check Bradford Weeks, Alice Lee Bloem, Hyla Cass, etc). And guess what? These doctors REFUSE to be part of the insurance because they realize they are limited to what they can and can't do if they are dealing with insurance.

And on a last note, why do you insist on being unreasonable when it comes to other ways of treating mental health issues? I explained on here numerous times that I think there is a time a place for drug therapy, but a functional, holistic approach is what will actually heal you, not the continuation of chemically suppressing the symptoms. What's wrong with wanting to find the real cause of ones suffering and attempting to fix it as opposed to being all about drugs like you? Are you really that callous? And please, do not talk about how high doses of vitamins are unnatural to the body, you promote drugs and yea...do I need to explain?

There is no doubt that drugs can help people in need and without them some people may not be alive today. But, we as humans deserve to not be given a pill and told to move on, we should use the pill as a stepping stone to help us recover completely and not have to be on drugs forever.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> One last thing to bruno2006 and QuiteBoy:
> 
> Please compile a list of studies (at best with PubMed ID) which examined the long-term or short term detrimental effects of antidepressants on the human brain to support the credibility of your claims
> I did post some and you didn't seem to bother. Now it's your turn. Youtube crap and unreferenced articles full of conjecture are not allowed. Only real studies (no case studies as these mean little when applied to the broad masses). Let's see what you guys can come up with. Most likely you don't even know what PubMed is.
> In a few days I will temporarily delete you from my ignore list and see what you came up with. If you found something I am happy to comment on it. Until then let's declare all your claims as false  C'mon guys! ;-)


I will do my best to come up with convincing evidence about the long term cognitive effects of antidepressants. For now do some research on some of my older posts and see what I put there. Just because I don't find something on your Pubmed or whatever does not mean there are not cognitive effects as a result of using antidepressants. Actually, you are self limiting and using selective perception as its become quite apparent that you are close minded and have it out for alternative therapies. Again I ask you, take a step back, open your mind and ask yourself, "what does it really mean to heal?"

Let us not forget that drugs are money makers and it is well known (not a theory as you insist) that the drug companies are not here to cure anything. These companies are big for people looking to invest money because THEY KNOW they WILL get their money's worth and some good returns on their investment. A quick course in business will prove show this. Following this same logic, one can easily understand as to why there have not been many studies done on long term cognitive effects of antidepressants. To deny the fact that the drug companies are not out there to heal, is being outright blind and suggests that you may as well have a special interest when it comes to drugs (see previous post where I point out the way you talk and the use of jargon).

And what is all this nonsense about "if I am happy to comment on"? You should really stop being so condescending as it shows your true colors and explains why you support the drug industry so much. Perhaps you have a vested interest? And to just simply say "until then declare your claims false" also shows your arrogance is consuming you. You continue to insist that the drugs are safe even in the light of evidence (granted some of it is not the best evidence, but sill reflects on the fact that antidepressants are dangerous). I will be happy to provide more evidence for you. And guess what, if I find good solid evidence on the contrary, I will be the first to admit that I am wrong as I am not so closed minded as you.

One last note, studies can be a bit confusing and, unlike you, I am not completely familiar with all the jargon they use. Likewise, one study can make a claim, and then another similar study make the opposite claim. So, it is up to us to examine the evidence, use logic, and come to a reasonable conclusion, not just simply dismiss things as you are so great at doing.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

He is right, you guys are using bro-science. Any fool can make a youtube video or write a web page in an authoritative voice. Doesn't make them right.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Inshallah said:


> He is right, you guys are using bro-science. Any fool can make a youtube video or write a web page in an authoritative voice. Doesn't make them right.


There is a lot of evidence out there and that is why I said I will provide good, solid evidence that the drugs have harmful long-term side effects including cognitive effects (I have already provided some including logical reasoning). And its not all "bro-science":no, but rather some of the evidence is just not so widely accepted for understandable reasons. It does not mean it should all be dismissed. Imagine if every bit of evidence ever presented was dismissed because a long, expensive, time-consuming, peer-reviewed, mom reviewed, dad reviewed, study was not done.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Always interested in learning something new if it comes from a legit source so I'd say, surprise us!


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

Inshallah said:


> He is right, you guys are using bro-science. Any fool can make a youtube video or write a web page in an authoritative voice. Doesn't make them right.


Indeed. And since this is a very serious topic it should be in our all interest to deal with it as professionally and scientifically as possible. Legit sources are imperative for such a discussion, preferably peer-reviewed stuff!

This should be a last attempt to save this thread from plummeting into speculative no-man's-land. This thread has already been read by thousands with probably many of them left irritated and discouraged to go down the med trail. Some might have even considered stopping their currently working regimen due to fears of long-term damage or already did so. If you two guys feel the slightest responsibility for these fellow SAD sufferers then by all means provide legit sources which prove your presumptions about long-term damage.

And the emphasis is on LONG-TERM (see original thread title)!! We are not talking about the well known, albeit tiny, risk of suicidal ideations and violent behavior. These are effects almost always seen in the first few weeks after initating treatment. They only occur in a very small subset of patients and don't have anything to do with long-term damage and they can be controlled with a sedating substance like a benzo in the initial phase.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> Indeed. And since this is a very serious topic it should be in our all interest to deal with it as professionally and scientifically as possible. Legit sources are imperative for such a discussion, preferably peer-reviewed stuff!
> 
> This should be a last attempt to save this thread from plummeting into speculative no-man's-land. This thread has already been read by thousands with probably many of them left irritated and discouraged to go down the med trail. Some might have even considered stopping their currently working regimen due to fears of long-term damage or already did so. If you two guys feel the slightest responsibility for these fellow SAD sufferers then by all means provide legit sources which prove your presumptions about long-term damage.
> 
> And the emphasis is on LONG-TERM (see original thread title)!! We are not talking about the well known, albeit tiny, risk of suicidal ideations and violent behavior. These are effects almost always seen in the first few weeks after initating treatment. They only occur in a very small subset of patients and don't have anything to do with long-term damage and they can be controlled with a sedating substance like a benzo in the initial phase.


Yes Doctor InnerPeace, I am well aware of what to do and what is required. I will get on it ASAP and provide some good evidence (although what is good to others may not be good to you as you are an expert in the drug field and and expert at dismissing evidence).


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Looks like we might have some pharmacists PhD and MD's up in here I feel jealous opcorn


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Looks like we might have some pharmacists PhD and MD's up in here I feel jealous opcorn


Yea Doctor Innerpeace will put a great drug cocktail together for you!! According to the Doctor, drugs are the only things that can ever work 

Out of curiosity, is El Crapo a real city because I have heard people call El Paso El Crapo instead lol.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

bruno2006 said:


> Yea Doctor Innerpeace will put a great drug cocktail together for you!! According to the Doctor, drugs are the only things that can ever work
> 
> Out of curiosity, is El Crapo a real city because I have heard people call El Paso El Crapo instead lol.


 yes sir El crapo is a real big city next to the border of Juarez Mexico one of the most dangerous city's in the world ironically El crapo is one of the safest in the USA lol


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> yes sir El crapo is a real big city next to the border of Juarez Mexico one of the most dangerous city's in the world ironically El crapo is one of the safest in the USA lol


Oh that's crazy. I passed through el paso once and it looked nasty. I heard it is also dangerous. But at least your in a safe place.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Your ignoring facts.*



foxy said:


> How many nutritin doctors an alternative meds doctors, have past any real medical diploma to say there legit, none my friend, because the medical profession dont reconise them. Most were burnt at the stake in the 16th century:yes Buddy you can call them quacks, because they have nothing to prove otherwise. Get your herbs an meds at holland an barret , dont pay some mad guy a forture to tell you what they can for free. The nutrition docs will run allergy tests , an 9 times out of 10 come out with a list as long as your arm. An everyone with no illness will get the same report if they take the same test. Now after paying for all the test, you start to treat loads of illness you didnt no you had ,an would not make a difference if you did as everyone has the same. Loads of different foods an supplements , no more the food you love . All because you payed some quack with no real medical experience to screw you over. Sure make a few changes in your life like stop smokeing , 7 out of 10 with anxierty smoke.Stop drinking so much , just have a couple of beers instead of a gallon. Cut out the greasy food, do exercize, there you go i told you all the nutrition things you need to know for free:yes.Now plant supplements the poppy, heroin lets all go on that ,its the top of the plant medication to cure anxierty so would you take that. Plus this suicide rate on meds keep commeing up in all your threads. If you go on meds, a good doctor should monitor you for any sign of things going wrong , an is at the end of a phone, as is the mental health hospital, you even get a number for a crisis team. The people who commit suicide on meds would have if not on them, thats just life an death in the world, they are already damaged beyond help. Sure some may be pushed over the edge, with first takeing meds ,But a good doc should tell if a person needs hospital before prescibeing anything.:yes


First off I never said anything about seeing an alternative doctor although someone can do that I myself never recommended it so stop making things up just because your losing the argument. The only reason why Psychiatrist have so much power is because of the plaque on their wall so you would believe anything they say? Good luck with that. You just made my point on exercise; thank you now your finally getting the point.

Suicides do go up while people are on meds that is a fact that is why I keep bringing it up because you keep ignoring it. Here post a comment on YouTube that has families pleading their case that medications increase suicides; tell them everything you told me about suicides and antidepressants.

Post your comments and tell them what you told me and see what happens if your *BRAVE ENOUGH. *




 :|

So if they are already suicidal it should be increased with antidepressants? Yes or No. It's a sad world we live in.



foxy said:


> you can find millions of threads like that, same as you can find drugs saved my life vids


Remember these drugs increase suicides not prevent them that is a fact. Believe it or not that is your choice.



InnerPeace said:


> So true.
> 
> Trying to fight serious mental diseases with supplements and herbs is outright dangerous and irresponsible. It's like trying to heal lung cancer with high dose vitamin E. Pulling someone e.g. out of major depression with nutritional support is a ridiculous undertaking.
> If anything of that helps you are most likely experiencing a placebo effect. Also it's very unnatural to consume mega-doses of vitamines. In no era of mankind have people consumed high doses of vitamins for long periods of time. So in which sense would this be a natural approach to healing a disease? There is also no long-term safety data.
> Not to mention that you have to pay it all yourself. At least where I live these alternative approaches are -for good reason- not covered by health insurance. Nutritional docs pull your money out of your pocket much more than real docs do.


Supplements and herbs are no the only alternatives so please do your research. Lung cancer is an actual disease that can be *MEASURED *stop comparing mental disorders with actual disease ok; its like comparing apples and oranges. Tell me the medical test that doctors ran to *DIAGNOSE *people with these disorders and I will stop asking the question. Where can I go and take a chemical imbalance test? Answer these questions and I will stop asking them. For the last time these disorders are not diseases; it's not like cancer and hiv/aids where test can be ran.

All you do ignore my strong facts and evidence which says a lot. There are many alternatives so you need to do further research. :no


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

InnerPeace said:


> One last thing to bruno2006 and QuiteBoy:
> 
> Please compile a list of studies (at best with PubMed ID) which examined the long-term or short term detrimental effects of antidepressants on the human brain to support the credibility of your claims
> I did post some and you didn't seem to bother. Now it's your turn. Youtube crap and unreferenced articles full of conjecture are not allowed. Only real studies (no case studies as these mean little when applied to the broad masses). Let's see what you guys can come up with. Most likely you don't even know what PubMed is.
> In a few days I will temporarily delete you from my ignore list and see what you came up with. If you found something I am happy to comment on it. Until then let's declare all your claims as false  C'mon guys! ;-)


Alright we'll do that but you guys have do the same. The same rules apply to you guys as well. You have the burden of proof.

FIRST OFF
Show us proof behind the reasonable doubt that a chemical imbalance exist and if so what chemical imbalance test is available to take.

What medical test do doctors use to *DIAGNOSE *patients?

And any other scientific proof evidence you can get your hands on.

If these questions are not answers than says everything we need to know. I don't think you ever put us on the ignore list gee I wonder why. This says a lot about your character; you say one thing but you don't do it which loses some of your creditability.

No theories or "Psychiatrist think" ; I don't want to hear any theories about anything just scientific proof beyond the reasonable doubt. Your already delcaring false claims? Another creditability loss. Weren't you the one who wanted this thread closed? You have already loss a lot of creditability. If you haven't found anything beyond the reasonable doubt than your arguments are invalid. Good luck.


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## casesensitive (Oct 12, 2010)

bruno2006 said:


> This is a common misconception I come across a lot: comparing diabetes and other illnesses with anxiety. Mainly, most doctors will say "well you anxiety/depression is a disease just like diabetes and you need to take drugs in order to live normal. Flat out wrong! One can easily use a functional, orthomolecular, or hollistic approach that in many cases can find the REAL cause of your suffering. In the most sever cases a drug should be used, but only as a temporary solution. Working with a functional medicine appoach, over time one can be taken off the drugs and brought back to health.


This is my approach also. I think we need to take responsibility for our health overall.

After some long, serious, thought, I have decided to start taking zoloft.

I am not relying on Zoloft to solve all my problems. I will be taking the time while on it to (if I am lucky enough for the side effects to be tolerable to give it enough time) go full force with my CBT as well as exercise, diet etc with the goal of using it temporarily.

It sounds like wishful thinking, but I am hopeful.


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

casesensitive said:


> This is my approach also. I think we need to take responsibility for our health overall.
> 
> After some long, serious, thought, I have decided to start taking zoloft.
> 
> ...


 Good call, you thought long an hard , not just jumped into meds like 2 people on this thread. Your useing them to get your life on track ,all being well its just a stepping stone to better health, then taper off when confident enough.:yes


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

*A bipolar test*

http://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-brain-imaging.html I reloise this may be a bit of a shock to a couple of members.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Alright we'll do that but you guys have do the same. The same rules apply to you guys as well. You have the burden of proof.
> 
> FIRST OFF
> Show us proof behind the reasonable doubt that a chemical imbalance exist and if so what chemical imbalance test is available to take.
> ...


Psychiatry IS a pseudo-science, I think everyone including they themselves will agree on that. You guys are also right in that you are not going to find a lot of science to back things up. But that works in both directions: neither the "pro" nor the "con" camp is going to find much in terms of scientific proof.

My bro-science comment was directed at the "I experienced this, therefore the general effect is..." causations I see on this website a lot. That you can not do because people who know less or are a little bit less intelligent will take from that that you are presenting the facts which you are not. This may lead to people not wanting to try something altogether, based on in essence nothing.

It's always best to clearly state: I experienced this, felt that, ... instead of it IS like that. Unless of course for once we were actually talking about a known fact


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

Inshallah said:


> Psychiatry IS a pseudo-science, I think everyone including they themselves will agree on that. You guys are also right in that you are not going to find a lot of science to back things up. But that works in both directions: neither the "pro" nor the "con" camp is going to find much in terms of scientific proof.
> 
> My bro-science comment was directed at the "I experienced this, therefore the general effect is..." causations I see on this website a lot. That you can not do because people who know less or are a little bit less intelligent will take from that that you are presenting the facts which you are not. This may lead to people not wanting to try something altogether, based on in essence nothing.
> 
> It's always best to clearly state: I experienced this, felt that, ... instead of it IS like that. Unless of course for once we were actually talking about a known fact


 Its show,s the brain,s of bipolar patient,s are floored, isnt that a fact:yes


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

I didn't say there was NO science to back things up foxy 
If they did extensive brain imaging for everyone, instead of simply prescribing a med based on subjective biofeedback, we would be working towards real solutions.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

foxy said:


> http://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-brain-imaging.html I reloise this may be a bit of a shock to a couple of members.


Nice finding! I am sure there are more brain imaging tests for other mental disorders, but as of now they are most likely only available in research facilities. That will certainly change in the coming years although the costs of diagnoses with brain imaging methods will be quite substantial.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

On a related note, even if we NOW had the ability to unambiguously diagnose any mental disease with brain imaging techniques, that still wouldn't change treatment protocols much if any. The most complicated part won't be the diagnosis, but rather to develop drugs that precisely act upon the afflicted parts of the brain. Of course these tests would be extremely beneficial to prevent false treatment protocols, e.g. an actually bipolar patient receiving the treatment of a schizophrenic or whatnot, but they wouldn't really improve the treatment of an already properly diagnosed patient, at least not in the short-term.
With that in mind, the question about the existance of such tests is really an insignificant one at the moment and shouldn't be the core of our discussion.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)




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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Of course antidepressants don't work if someone is not depressed to begin with. They are prescribed too often, fact. Depression seems to be in fashion and everyone thinks they are depressed because they're a bit down. 

Depression for me (and really is) = Why should I live anymore? I want do die... 

Problem is they are prescribing ad's for dysthymia or even less than dysthymia. Or whatever you want to call it, doesn't matter.

Depression = being at risk for killing yourself. If you are not in this state, you should not receive antidepressants, period.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


>


Pls not again a youtube vid. What does that vid have to do with long term damage of AD's? Just one note on the widely spread conception that AD's are not more effective than placebo. First they ARE DEFINETLY more effective, most measurable in major depressed patients. And that alone justifies their use! The meta analysis which made these findings also clearly mentions this, but people often ignore that. And even the findings that AD's are not more effective that placebo in mild to moderately depressed patients has been heavily contested.



>


Again, doesn't add anything to this discussion except for the obvious fact that patients with mental diseases are treated based on symptoms they express in a meeting with their psychiatrist and not based on a brain imaging test. Let's not derail this thread and focus on long-term cognitive damage by AD's pls.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

InnerPeace said:


> Pls not again a youtube vid. What does that vid have to do with long term damage of AD's? Just one note on the widely spread conception that AD's are not more effective than placebo. First they ARE DEFINETLY more effective, most measurable in major depressed patients. And that alone justifies their use! The meta analysis which made these findings also clearly mentions this, but people often ignore that. And even the findings that AD's are not more effective that placebo in mild to moderately depressed patients has been heavily contested.
> 
> Again, doesn't add anything to this discussion except for the obvious fact that patients with mental diseases are treated based on symptoms they express in a meeting with their psychiatrist and not based on a brain imaging test. Let's not derail this thread and focus on long-term cognitive damage by AD's pls.


 Yes mr. If you dont like it simply dont look at it. Im not forcing anyone to look at the videos I threw them in for entertainment not for medical/professional advice..


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

2 members of the anti med campain, seem quite today


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Inshallah said:


> Of course antidepressants don't work if someone is not depressed to begin with. They are prescribed too often, fact. Depression seems to be in fashion and everyone thinks they are depressed because they're a bit down.
> 
> Depression for me (and really is) = Why should I live anymore? I want do die...
> 
> ...


nah for me depression= self pity and pathetic seeking attention hoping that the world is not indifferent to my plight. And the side effect being suicide.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Yes mr. If you dont like it simply dont look at it. Im not forcing anyone to look at the videos I threw them in for entertainment not for medical/professional advice..


Concerning the SSRI not better than placebo myth:

http://theilluminatedbrain.com/drugs-chemicals/the-ssri-placebo-myth/

With references of course.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> nah for me depression= self pity and pathetic seeking attention hoping that the world is not indifferent to my plight. And the side effect being suicide.


Well you said it yourself. You need a kick up the ***, not antidepressants.

I suggest you join the army, they'll man you up!


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Inshallah said:


> Well you said it yourself. You need a kick up the ***, not antidepressants.
> 
> I suggest you join the army, they'll man you up!


 Wow. what great insight. I could try it but I cant guarantee it.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> Concerning the SSRI not better than placebo myth:
> 
> http://theilluminatedbrain.com/drugs-chemicals/the-ssri-placebo-myth/
> 
> With references of course.


Well Doctor Innerpeace, while I am doing my homework on antidepressant side effects, I did come across a number of articles showing that there is not much difference between the antidepressants and a placebo. A lot of it has to do with our thinking: our minds are extremely powerful and the placebo effect can be greater than any mind altering, disease inducing antidepressant. So who is to say that your source is correct? There are other studies that suggest different.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

foxy said:


> 2 members of the anti med campain, seem quite today


Anti-med? Are you delusional? Can you not read? Are the drugs interfering with your perception on reality? GO BACK AND READ MY POSTS!!!!!!!!!! And do you not mean QUIET hahahah


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> Concerning the SSRI not better than placebo myth:
> 
> http://theilluminatedbrain.com/drugs-chemicals/the-ssri-placebo-myth/
> 
> With references of course.


This thread on M&M might be a little bit easier to digest:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/neuroscience-nootropics/38510-lie-ssri-2.html#post588326

Same "SSRIs & TCAs vs Placebo" topic about the same heavily flawed Coachrane meta-analysis.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Inshallah said:


> Of course antidepressants don't work if someone is not depressed to begin with. They are prescribed too often, fact. Depression seems to be in fashion and everyone thinks they are depressed because they're a bit down.
> 
> Depression for me (and really is) = Why should I live anymore? I want do die...
> 
> ...


I agree with this post :clap


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

bruno2006 said:


> Well Doctor Innerpeace, while I am doing my homework on antidepressant side effects, I did come across a number of articles showing that there is not much difference between the antidepressants and a placebo. A lot of it has to do with our thinking: our minds are extremely powerful and the placebo effect can be greater than any mind altering, disease inducing antidepressant. So who is to say that your source is correct? There are other studies that suggest different.


So what can we do to help withdrawl and or discontinuation syndrome that has me and other people in distress?


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Well Doctor Innerpeace, while I am doing my homework on antidepressant side effects, I did come across a number of articles showing that there is not much difference between the antidepressants and a placebo. A lot of it has to do with our thinking: our minds are extremely powerful and the placebo effect can be greater than any mind altering, disease inducing antidepressant. So who is to say that your source is correct? There are other studies that suggest different.


bruno and QuietBoy, I deleted you from my ignore list. That was not the right way to bring this discussion forward. My apologies. But don't expect me to react to your posts if you do not provide legit sources.

Btw, the whole placebo myth was based on a single meta analysis study and it's all referenced in the links I provided. Here is the direct link to the flawed Cochrane meta analysis which broke loose the "no better than placebo" hysteria:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20051569

Today it is well understood that this study came to a wrong conclusion based on many mistakes that were done. See my links to know which precisely. And again, I am not a doc, psych, pharma rep, "something else" (whatever you mean with that), your friend or anything. Please stop using these provocative and sarcastic words. That includes you too, QuietBoy.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> So what can we do to help withdrawl and or discontinuation syndrome that has me and other people in distress?


When I began withdrawal I did not do it with a good plan. So the first step is to make sure it is planned out and you are ready to get off. There are a number of books that offer great insight into getting off and staying off drugs. Another popular way is to use theroadback.org program. I do not have personal experience with this program but it has been around a long time. 
With that said, I believe that the best way is to take a holistic, multifaceted approach because there are a number of factors that must be taken into consideration. You sort of need to rebuild your body from the damage caused by the drugs and this can be hard. Check out Alice Lee-Bloem's website where she talks about what is necessary in order to get off drugs. One thing she utilizes a lot is energy medicine. I can personally tell you energy medicine can work wonders and, as mentioned before, they use it here in Houston as a complimentary medicine for cancer.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> So what can we do to help withdrawl and or discontinuation syndrome that has me and other people in distress?


First you should make sure that you taper off the drugs as slowly as possible. Use a liquid preparation of the drug for even finer dosage adjustments. Or switch to an SSRI with a very long half-life, preferably fluoxetine which can be self-tapering due to its long half life. 
If you still expierience withdrawal symtoms you should try to wait them out unless they are serious. Symptoms of hyperexcitability and insomnia can be controlled with benzos short-term.
Your sertonergic system might take a few weeks or even months to fully return to homeostatic baseline.

You could also try mega doses of Inositiol (12 grams daily) for sensitizing your serotonine receptors. That helped me a lot although I ran around farting like a cow ;-) At least I think it was the Inositol even though it might as well have been the fact that it wasn't very difficult to withdraw from escitalopram from a mere 2,5mg dose.

And before bruno asks: I do take the escitalopram again at 5 mg, because I feel much better with it than without it.

Hope that helps.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> bruno and QuietBoy, I deleted you from my ignore list. That was not the right way to bring this discussion forward. My apologies. But don't expect me to react to your posts if you do not provide legit sources.
> 
> Btw, the whole placebo myth was based on a single meta analysis study and it's all referenced in the links I provided. Here is the direct link to the flawed Cochrane meta analysis which broke loose the "no better than placebo" hysteria:
> 
> ...


Good insight, I will look into your claims as they seem reasonable.

Perhaps if you did not use so much jargon, were not so condescending, were not so arrogant, etc., I would not poke fun at the fact that you have all the tale tale signs of a psychiatrist or maybe have a vested interested in the drug industry.

Anyways, I have found some good evidence on the drug side effects. I will admit, it is a bit challenging as a lot of the claims are anecdotal, but there are still good sources out there that show, beyond a doubt, that there are long term side effects associated with antidepressants and among these are cognitive effects. Please keep in mind, though, I am a full time student and work full time so it may take a couple of days to compile my list of sources and evidence. Good day!


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> First you should make sure that you taper off the drugs as slowly as possible. Use a liquid preparation of the drug for even finer dosage adjustments. Or switch to an SSRI with a very long half-life, preferably fluoxetine which can be self-tapering due to its long half life.
> If you still expierience withdrawal symtoms you should try to wait them out unless they are serious. Symptoms of hyperexcitability and insomnia can be controlled with benzos short-term.
> Your sertonergic system might take a few weeks or even months to fully return to homeostatic baseline.
> 
> ...


Damn your good doc hahahaha. Okok I will stop with the whole doc thing. Just had to do it one more time. Do you forgive me pooky?


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Good insight, I will look into your claims as they seem reasonable.
> 
> Perhaps if you did not use so much jargon, were not so condescending, were not so arrogant, etc., I would not poke fun at the fact that you have all the tale tale signs of a psychiatrist or maybe have a vested interested in the drug industry.
> 
> Anyways, I have found some good evidence on the drug side effects. I will admit, it is a bit challenging as a lot of the claims are anecdotal, but there are still good sources out there that show, beyond a doubt, that there are long term side effects associated with antidepressants and among these are cognitive effects. Please keep in mind, though, I am a full time student and work full time so it may take a couple of days to compile my list of sources and evidence. Good day!


No bad feelings. I was acutally having more of an issue with QuietBoy who was very patronizing towards others' opinions.
I am open-minded do read whatever you both come up with concerning long-term damage on cognition of ADs. Rest assured that I will respond objectively. But please check the credibility of your sources. Anything else is not going to do this community a favor.

Take your time.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Perhaps if you did not use so much jargon...


I used the least amount of jargon possible, but I find it quite alarming that you and QuietBoy can't seem to follow. After all it was you and him acting like they knew everything about the harmfulness of ADs. If you don't know anything about neuroscience and if you can't read the medical jargon I seriously doubt you are in a position to judge or even understand the literature on this subject . This includes the ability to perform targeted searches in medical science literature and interpret them, at least to some extent. In this case, a little more soft-pedaling would suit you both very well.

I apologize if I did you wrong with my assessment of your medical knowledge.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

> FIRST OFF
> Show us proof behind the reasonable doubt that a chemical imbalance exist and if so what chemical imbalance test is available to take.


Why should I offer proof for something I never claimed? I never said I bought into the chemical imbalance theory or anything like that. I do not consider SSRI and cohorts more than very effective masking agents for diseases whose root causes are still largely unknown.



> What medical test do doctors use to *DIAGNOSE *patients?
> 
> And any other scientific proof evidence you can get your hands on.


Pleeaassee!...Not again this scientic test crap. foxy gave you a link for brain imaging tests done in bipolar patients. I don't know how accurate these findings are and how many other tests are in existance for other mental diseases, but it's not relevant to this topic. We are discussing *POTENTIAL LONG TERM DAMAGE OF AD'S / **YES OR NO ?* in this thread and not _IS THERE A F***ING RELIABLE SCIENTIFIC TEST FOR MENTAL DISEASES?_

Once and for all, did you get that? *NO SCIENTIFIC TEST AVAILABLE* ...

... at least nothing that has already made it into everyday psychiatry.

Seriously, if you bring up this question for medical tests again I will report you to the mods in this forum. You literally asked it more than half a dozen times. Each time someone acknowledged there is no such test and you asked the very same question a posting or two later again. *This is text-book trolling !!* Now get your act together and start with the list pls. I am excited what you have to offer.



> If these questions are not answers than says everything we need to know. I don't think you ever put us on the ignore list gee I wonder why. This says a lot about your character; you say one thing but you don't do it which loses some of your creditability.


You were on my ignore list for a day or two until I realized that you guys are too dangerous to ignore. My apologies again. No way I let you mess with the anxiety of our board members without at least presenting facts with substance.
I do not intend to build up any credibility here, but I rather let my sources speak.



> No theories or "Psychiatrist think" ; I don't want to hear any theories about anything just scientific proof beyond the reasonable doubt. Your already delcaring false claims? Another creditability loss. Weren't you the one who wanted this thread closed? You have already loss a lot of creditability. If you haven't found anything beyond the reasonable doubt than your arguments are invalid. Good luck.


Yes I wanted this thread to be closed, and if you can't provide legit sources within the next days then I still advocate its closure. 
And again, you are the ones in debt with proof about long term cognitive impairment caused by AD's. I never made that claim.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> I used the least amount of jargon possible, but I find it quite alarming that you and QuietBoy can't seem to follow. After all it was you and him acting like they knew everything about the harmfulness of ADs. If you don't know anything about neuroscience and if you can't read the medical jargon I seriously doubt you are in a position to judge or even understand the literature on this subject . This includes the ability to perform targeted searches in medical science literature and interpret them, at least to some extent. In this case, a little more soft-pedaling would suit you both very well.
> 
> I apologize if I did you wrong with my assessment of your medical knowledge.


You see how condescending you are doctor? That's exactly why its so obvious you have a vested interest in the drug industry and there is a conflict of interest on you part. Further, any lay person can easily be confused with the medical jargon doctor. This is beside the point and it does not mean one needs to be a scientist, or in your case a psychiatrist, to correctly interpret the results of a study showing the harmful side effects of the drugs, doctor. So, please realize this before you open that pie hole of yours. Deal?

On a last note, because information does not come from a certain medical journal or a certain medical source, does not mean it is inaccurate, untrue, or crazy. There are a number of reasons why a certain source publishes one thing and not another, besides the obvious. Again, when it comes to drugs and the medical community we can return to the fundamental principle of business, ANY business: to make a profit. Without the long term use of the drugs, by the way antidepressants are the number one money maker for a lot of pharma companies, there would be no business. Oh and I like how you defended yourself when I criticized your use of jargon but said nothing in defense of it being brought to light that you are condesending and arrogant


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> You see how condescending you are doctor? That's exactly why its so obvious you have a vested interest in the drug industry and there is a conflict of interest on you part. Further, any lay person can easily be confused with the medical jargon doctor. This is beside the point and it does not mean one needs to be a scientist, or in your case a psychiatrist, to correctly interpret the results of a study showing the harmful side effects of the drugs, doctor. So, please realize this before you open that pie hole of yours. Deal?


This was not meant to be condescending, but in fact a major concern I had. You guys puff up unproprotionally in this forum compared to the knowledge you have on the subject matter which is simply inappropriate. If you can't read the jargon in a study (which is also a challenge for me, but I eventually make it) and besides lack fundamental knowledge of neurosciences than by all means exercise a little more restraint when dealing with such a serious topic. 
 



> On a last note, because information does not come from a certain medical journal or a certain medical source, does not mean it is inaccurate, untrue, or crazy. There are a number of reasons why a certain source publishes one thing and not another, besides the obvious. Again, when it comes to drugs and the medical community we can return to the fundamental principle of business, ANY business: to make a profit. Without the long term use of the drugs, by the way antidepressants are the number one money maker for a lot of pharma companies, there would be no business.


I strongly disagree here. While medical science is far from perfect and quite a few studies have flaws, it is the best we have. I am not quite sure which sources you are refering to, but eventually you'll have to look beyond youtube videos, unreferenced articles, blogs, anecdotal reports and authorative sounding one-man-PhD-websites to underpin your claims.
Concerning your statement on profit making:
SSRIs are on the market for more than 20 years and there is a plethora of independent unsponsored research. All SSRIs except escitalopram went generic many years ago and from this point on there is simply not enough money the original patent holders can make with such a drug that would warrant funding any studies. So even if we were extremely skeptical and paranoid about funded studies, we can be pretty sure that once a drug is off-patent, the patent holding pharma company will invest in more profitable fields.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> This was not meant to be condescending, but in fact a major concern I had. You guys puff up unproprotionally in this forum compared to the knowledge you have on the subject matter which is simply inappropriate. If you can't read the jargon in a study (which is also a challenge for me, but I eventually make it) and besides lack fundamental knowledge of neurosciences than by all means exercise a little more restraint when dealing with such a serious topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


.

I doubt you are very concerned and am sure it is simply your ego coming out. Also, I am very well aware of my limits when it comes to understanding the human brain and the effects of drugs, but does this mean I cannot successfully understand a study? Does this mean everything I present is wrong?

Because you have experience in the drug industry does that mean everything you say is correct? Does that mean all your sources are correct? Again, please remember my knowledge of the antidepressant side effects began many years after taking them: I saw how my memory was far less functional, how my reasoning was far less accurate, how my overall health had declined. So I went and did research and found many similar people in the same boat. While many people will not, or just refuse to believe like you, experience the most severe of the side effects, it is still a very real concern and often times our symptoms are simply dismissed in the same way you dismiss most of what I say.

Please note I said CERTAIN medical journals and sources, I did not say medical science as a whole. Likewise, I have never presented any youtube videos and only provided the link to Doctor Cheney's study as a possible explanation to what may be happening when we experience cognitive decline from the antidepressants. So get your facts straight doctor.

The income generated from antidepressants is absolutely insane and you cannot deny the fact that they are driven by this insane amount of money they make. Granted, many antidepressants are generic, and many are cheap, but there is still a whole lot of money to be made even after the drugs become generic because of the simple fact that they are addicting and almost impossible to get off.


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## Cuauhtemoc (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes medical science is not perfect and blablabal but it's better to trust doctors than hippie sites about how you can solve all your problems with vegetables and fish oil.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Cuauhtemoc said:


> Yes medical science is not perfect and blablabal but it's better to trust doctors than hippie sites about how you can solve all your problems with vegetables and fish oil.


hahahahah wow you are totally on another level guy!!! Thanks for the laugh, though. Perhaps Doctor InnerPeace can adjust your dose?:teeth:teeth


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

So glad to see some members like Innerpeace recognising outright assault on logic and clear thinking from the likes of Quiet and bruno...

""You were on my ignore list for a day or two until I realized that you guys are too dangerous to ignore. My apologies again. No way I let you mess with the anxiety of our board members without at least presenting facts with substance.
I do not intend to build up any credibility here, but I rather let my sources speak"" 
- Innerpeace

/agree

Finally some informed balance is being brought to the table.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> So glad to see some members like Innerpeace recognising outright assault on logic and clear thinking from the likes of Quiet and bruno...
> 
> ""You were on my ignore list for a day or two until I realized that you guys are too dangerous to ignore. My apologies again. No way I let you mess with the anxiety of our board members without at least presenting facts with substance.
> I do not intend to build up any credibility here, but I rather let my sources speak""
> ...


Ouch that hurt!! Unfortunately, you did not go back and read at least most of my posts. I use solid logic and do not jump to conclusions like you and so many others. I have already admitted to the fact that I am not an expert on drugs like InnerPeace (thank the Lord) is, but I have done my fair share of investigating and also have a lot of experience with antidepressants. Likewise, there is not an "outright assault" on anything so get your facts straight Mr. Nice try though....

Lastly, AS I KEEP REPEATING TO YOU AND OTHERS, I am not one of those unrealistic, evidence avoiding people who simply hate drugs; rather, I am a man who woke up and realized that the drugs were making me slowly and steadily more ill. So I set out to find out why.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> .
> 
> I doubt you are very concerned and am sure it is simply your ego coming out. Also, I am very well aware of my limits when it comes to understanding the human brain and the effects of drugs, but does this mean I cannot successfully understand a study? Does this mean everything I present is wrong?
> 
> ...


I am indeed concerned, no ego thing here. But let's make it simple: provide us with studies that support your claims or leave or at least remain silent. That was the deal. Now take your time to compile the list. As simple as that.

By the way, you start again with your sarcastic "doctor" thing which is slowly getting on my nerves. Stop that ****, alright?

And leave money and pharma profit making ouf of the debate. We need concrete evidence and getting obsessed with big pharama manipulating us all is leading us nowhere. Now go and research medical literature for long term cognitive impairment caused by AD's, will you?


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Why don't you grow up? If you don't want to discuss this stuff the bye bye!


So it appears you were the first to start flinging stupid comments around with nothing to show for it.

At the time i was furiously debating (and winning) with quietboy before you decided to chime in with useless comments.

I just think a certain few are getting a little mad that the flock arent buying the drivel and unsubstantiated fearmongering thats being spewed out.

Like i said COUNTLESS times, there are pros and cons and its up to the individual to figure out if they are better off or not when taking meds.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> hahahahah wow you are totally on another level guy!!! Thanks for the laugh, though. Perhaps Doctor InnerPeace can adjust your dose?:teeth:teeth


Bruno, one more insult of this kind ("adjust your dose") and I will happily report you to the mods. 
This thread could have been concise and informative, but instead it is getting more and more filled with irrelevant bull****. Why don't you just leave the thread alone for a couple of days until you compiled your list and then come back? Is that possible?


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> Bruno, one more insult of this kind ("adjust your dose") and I will happily report you to the mods.
> This thread could have been concise and informative, but instead it is getting more and more filled with irrelevant bull****. Why don't you just leave the thread alone for a couple of days until you compiled your list and then come back? Is that possible?


Oh quit being a big baby, that was no insult silly boy, but do you not agree that the comments that guy posts are truly on another level? He randomly comes here and posts things that make little or no sense. And why do you consistently use the threat of telling on some people to the mod? You made numerous rude remarks and I did not go crying to the mod so its only fair you do the same.

With that in mind, I totally agree with what you say about concise and informative posts, but why does it seem like you dismiss almost everything? You run around with your nose stuck up and constantly want to sush us up and then turn around and either want to report some of us or end the thread totally.


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

InnerPeace said:


> On a more general note, bruno and QuietBoy behave like medieval herbal witches who apparently wear blinders and don't have the intellect to objectively discuss a topic. I get the impression that we are dealing with forum trolls who deliberately provocate and selectively ignore others' statements to defend their point. If I was a mod I would have already banned you for the lack of tolerance towards others opinion. People like you add no value to a forum like this.
> 
> Everyone in this thread argueing pro drugs also admitted that drugs are not always necessary, not a cure and far away from a perfect solution. You guys, on the other hand, know only one opinion, i.e. drugs are evil, big pharma is evil, long-term damage is inevitable for everyone on such drugs and everyone who think differently needs a "reality check" because of the overwhelming proof you have to offer (which other than a few meaningless youtube videos is non-existant). No matter the success other report with using drugs and the fact that some even owe their life to them! What a presumptuous attitude to simply ignore all that!
> It's really like talking to a piece of bread.
> ...


My internet has been out a couple days because I lost power from the hurricane so Im still catching up and haven't read the posts from today...

Anyways, You guys all need to stop making this argument personal. Just state your facts and opinions and experiences. No progress will be made in either direction of the argument if your egos are involved. Don't make it a fight. Don't make it about having to prove the other person wrong... if they are wrong, and your right is verifiable, just objectively state that fact and provide some type of evidence or source (that bill maher video is not very good, even though I do agree with most of it).

And InnerPeace, I am unclear as to why you keep asking for this thread to be closed and the subject to be dismissed. You didn't win the argument, in fact you're not even close. If you no longer wish to discuss this then just stop posting. Otherwise, this is a very important subject that needs to be discussed.

And for the record, I have been on five antidepressant medications for social anxiety, and three for ADD but adderall was the longest. I would say my social anxiety is pretty severe, a 100 on the Liebowitz scale. I am on nothing now and would like to say I will never take any meds again, but I don't know.

The only thing that affected me was paxil, but I would rather the "live" with social anxiety than live a life on paxil.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> So it appears you were the first to start flinging stupid comments around with nothing to show for it.
> 
> At the time i was furiously debating (and winning) with quietboy before you decided to chime in with useless comments.
> 
> ...


How is saying "grow up" and "bye bye" "flinging stupid comments"? You came here leaving ridiculous comments about "make that your signature" and whatever else and I simply told you what I told you. Again, you are taking things out of proportion.

And how can the individual figure anything out while their brains are being altered by the antidepressants? The drugs are often so powerful that they change almost every aspect of who you are and what you are all about. Your sense of reasoning is obstructed by the drugs and once you finally decide to get off them, it is nearly impossible. Often times, people who merely have some anxiety, or some depression (not suicidal) are told they have a disease and need to be put on drugs because their "disease" is similar to diabetes where they need to take something forever in order to be "normal". Eventually family member, friends, partners (like in my case) start to realize "wwwwwwoooowwww Billy Bob is totally on another level here. He is not who he used to be and when I talk to him and try to explain things to him he just does not listen". Therefore, the individual cannot accurately asses himself.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> How is saying "grow up" and "bye bye" "flinging stupid comments"? You came here leaving ridiculous comments about "make that your signature" and whatever else and I simply told you what I told you. Again, you are taking things out of proportion.
> 
> And how can the individual figure anything out while their brains are being altered by the antidepressants? The drugs are often so powerful that they change almost every aspect of who you are and what you are all about. Your sense of reasoning is obstructed by the drugs and once you finally decide to get off them, it is nearly impossible. Often times, people who merely have some anxiety, or some depression (not suicidal) are told they have a disease and need to be put on drugs because their "disease" is similar to diabetes where they need to take something forever in order to be "normal". Eventually family member, friends, partners (like in my case) start to realize "wwwwwwoooowwww Billy Bob is totally on another level here. He is not who he used to be and when I talk to him and try to explain things to him he just does not listen". Therefore, the individual cannot accurately asses himself.


These posts you make are a dime a' dozen. We get that they dont work for you, thats great! But some of us are interested in improving and stabilizing and currently you do nothing for that process! But, trolls will always be trolls.

*You just need to catch them out like Innerpeace has done via the requesting of legitimate, objective and peer reviewed articles.*

Clearly quietboy and yourself havnt been able to step up to the mark.


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> How is saying "grow up" and "bye bye" "flinging stupid comments"? You came here leaving ridiculous comments about "make that your signature" and whatever else and I simply told you what I told you. Again, you are taking things out of proportion.
> 
> And how can the individual figure anything out while their brains are being altered by the antidepressants? *The drugs are often so powerful that they change almost every aspect of who you are and what you are all about. Your sense of reasoning is obstructed by the drugs and once you finally decide to get off them, it is nearly impossible. Often times, people who merely have some anxiety, or some depression (not suicidal) are told they have a disease and need to be put on drugs because their "disease" is similar to diabetes where they need to take something forever in order to be "normal". Eventually family member, friends, partners (like in my case) start to realize "wwwwwwoooowwww Billy Bob is totally on another level here. He is not who he used to be and when I talk to him and try to explain things to him he just does not listen". Therefore, the individual cannot accurately asses himself.*




Exactly what happened to me while I was on paxil. For those arguing medication is good or "worth the risks", it all depends on what you're willing to give up. Ideally, I would want to be "myself" without social anxiety. But paxil made me another person-who happens to not have social anxiety. Personally I would rather be "myself" and have social anxiety... and just continue to try my best to eliminate it.

It just doesn't seem right to completely mess with your brain to the point of not even being able to recognize yourself anymore. Maybe you guys arguing for medication had positive effects with it, and that's all you are basing your arguments on. But paxil almost killed me. I've said this on numerous different threads on this website. It made me take insane risks... one that I would estimate 4/5 people would be DEAD if they did what I did... You tell me: is it worth the risk? At the same time though, I was living life! I was just living someone else's life, not mine. And also, I couldn't experience emotion.


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## newboki (Sep 13, 2009)

We are all humans, i was reading through this debate and i love to read them because i like to debate as we all do,for me it gets me energized. From my point of view nobody is right or wrong here. We all like to think that we are right at some things. But when you look at it the point of humanity is to talk, debate or whatever that's what keeps us going. As i wrote this post i thought in my head these guys will get inspired by my post. But that's my head thinking maybe some of you will like my post and some won't but it doesn't matter because i had fun writing it.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> These posts you make are a dime a' dozen. We get that they dont work for you, thats great! But some of us are interested in improving and stabilizing and currently you do nothing for that process! But, trolls will always be trolls.
> 
> *You just need to catch them out like Innerpeace has done via the requesting of legitimate, objective and peer reviewed articles.*
> 
> Clearly quietboy and yourself havnt been able to step up to the mark.


Wow your good at jumping to conclusions and being flat out wrong. Further who ever said I don't want to be stable? Come on guy we all want to get rid of our suffering, that is a given. You constantly come here blowing things out of proportion and exaggerating. For example, assuming that I am only here to belittle and demonize the use of drugs when I explained many times I am not. I bet that is part of the reason why you need drugs to stabilize: you blow things out of proportion, assume things, and are extremely critical. All of these things will absolutely put you in a negative, depressed, anxious mood.

Lastly, as you so well do, you are assuming that all of innerpeace's sources and everything he says is absolute truth because it goes along with what you believe and his comments reinforce that. Innerpeace is not the almighty, unbiased, most honest authority in the world to where you can constantly brown nose him and all he says. Are you sure you even checked all his references and understand them?

How about you be realistic, do some breathing, and stop being so aggressive and outright closed minded.


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

You all need to take a step back... Do you realize you aren't accomplishing anything by arguing with each other? What do you think is going to happen? You think the other person is just going to say "you know what, you're right and I was wrong". It's not about that though. Neither of you are right and neither of you are wrong... It's your egos that are becoming involved. Come on.

I'll post this again...

My internet has been out a couple days because I lost power from the hurricane so Im still catching up and haven't read the posts from today...

*Anyways, You guys all need to stop making this argument personal. Just state your facts and opinions and experiences. No progress will be made in either direction of the argument if your egos are involved. Don't make it a fight. Don't make it about having to prove the other person wrong... if they are wrong, and your right is verifiable, just objectively state that fact and provide some type of evidence or source (that bill maher video is not very good, even though I do agree with most of it). *

And InnerPeace, I am unclear as to why you keep asking for this thread to be closed and the subject to be dismissed. You didn't win the argument, in fact you're not even close. If you no longer wish to discuss this then just stop posting. Otherwise, this is a very important subject that needs to be discussed.

And for the record, I have been on five antidepressant medications for social anxiety, and three for ADD but adderall was the longest. I would say my social anxiety is pretty severe, a 100 on the Liebowitz scale. I am on nothing now and would like to say I will never take any meds again, but I don't know.

The only thing that affected me was paxil, but I would rather "live" with social anxiety than live a life on paxil.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Wow your good at jumping to conclusions and being flat out wrong. Further who ever said I don't want to be stable? Come on guy we all want to get rid of our suffering, that is a given. You constantly come here blowing things out of proportion and exaggerating. For example, assuming that I am only here to belittle and demonize the use of drugs when I explained many times I am not. I bet that is part of the reason why you need drugs to stabilize: you blow things out of proportion, assume things, and are extremely critical. All of these things will absolutely put you in a negative, depressed, anxious mood.
> 
> Lastly, as you so well do, you are assuming that all of innerpeace's sources and everything he says is absolute truth because it goes along with what you believe and his comments reinforce that. Innerpeace is not the almighty, unbiased, most honest authority in the world to where you can constantly brown nose him and all he says. Are you sure you even checked all his references and understand them?
> 
> How about you be realistic, do some breathing, and stop being so aggressive and outright closed minded.


Hah, you are wrong there buddy.

I support his view on objective and peer reviewed research to back up points. Not neccesarily his view directly. But nice try at obscuring my point of view to make me look bad


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Are you listening to yourself?*

Dame, What the hell happen in one day? I just last posted yesterday and everybody comes rushing in. LMAO. :clap I read all of the your post unfortunately I won't be able to respond to all of them due to time.



foxy said:


> http://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-brain-imaging.html I reloise this may be a bit of a shock to a couple of members.


Really? Brain imaging as a way to determine mental illness? Anything can affect your brain during those PET scans; it can range from showing someone a picture, listening to music, patient getting excited about something and others. It's near impossible to replicate a universal brain scan studies so it can be tested over and over again. Here I have an article to refute your argument.

http://www.academyanalyticarts.org/fores.htm



InnerPeace said:


> Nice finding! I am sure there are more brain imaging tests for other mental disorders, but as of now they are most likely only available in research facilities. That will certainly change in the coming years although the costs of diagnoses with brain imaging methods will be quite substantial.


Again the same thing as above; brain imaging is not a reliable source of *DIAGNOSING *mental illness. In fact if anything its laughable. Sorry but your going to have to try harder than this.



A Sense of Purpose said:


> These posts you make are a dime a' dozen. We get that they dont work for you, thats great! But some of us are interested in improving and stabilizing and currently you do nothing for that process! But, trolls will always be trolls.
> 
> *You just need to catch them out like Innerpeace has done via the requesting of legitimate, objective and peer reviewed articles.*
> 
> Clearly quietboy and yourself havnt been able to step up to the mark.


I have been asking you to prove to me of a chemical imbalance and what medical test psychiatrist/doctors use to *DIAGNOSE *patients but you have prove to me nothing. How are we trolls? We present to you strong arguments, hard evidence, and simple questions that you cannot answer. Psychiatry is not backed up by science and you know it unless you can prove to me otherwise. The DSM is not backed up by science; homosexuality was once a mental illness in the DSM.

Where is your strong evidence? The brain imaging is laughable at best as you can read from my post up above. You guys are going to have to do better than that. :yes

In the coming days I'll post some more things because I'm busy with my life right now.


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> So what can we do to help withdrawl and or discontinuation syndrome that has me and other people in distress?


 Nothing you took the med , they didnt hold a gun to your head. an you have stopped it, so i suggest you take the pain. An reolise meds are for people that are mentally ill


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

> Anyways, You guys all need to stop making this argument personal. Just state your facts and opinions and experiences. No progress will be made in either direction of the argument if your egos are involved. Don't make it a fight. Don't make it about having to prove the other person wrong... if they are wrong, and your right is verifiable, just objectively state that fact and provide some type of evidence or source (that bill maher video is not very good, even though I do agree with most of it).


Wise words. This is not about winning or losing an argument, but to eduate each other. I tried to that with my very first post in this thread, but unnecessary emotion an lack of objectivity of two now well-known guys makes this exceedingly difficult. I don't know how often I reiterated in my last posts to make this thread objective and informative again by posting legit sources to substantiate one's claims. To no avail unfortunately.



> And InnerPeace, I am unclear as to why you keep asking for this thread to be closed and the subject to be dismissed. You didn't win the argument, in fact you're not even close. If you no longer wish to discuss this then just stop posting. Otherwise, this is a very important subject that needs to be discussed.


Again, my intention is not to win anything here, but to lead a scientific discussion whatever the outcome will be. I am open-minded to whatever other users contribute as legit sources.
I asked for closing this thread, because the informations content is getting so thin and the thread turns into a feud between several users. It is an impertinence for other users to read through all this.



> And for the record, I have been on five antidepressant medications for social anxiety, and three for ADD but adderall was the longest. I would say my social anxiety is pretty severe, a 100 on the Liebowitz scale. I am on nothing now and would like to say I will never take any meds again, but I don't know.
> The only thing that affected me was paxil, but I would rather the "live" with social anxiety than live a life on paxil.


Like I said before, let's leave all anecdots behind now. They don't bring us any further.


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## InnerPeace (Apr 21, 2011)

> Really? Brain imaging as a way to determine mental illness? Anything can affect your brain during those PET scans; it can range from showing someone a picture, listening to music, patient getting excited about something and others. It's near impossible to replicate a universal brain scan studies so it can be tested over and over again. Here I have an article to refute your argument.


The brain scans actually showed reduction in grey matter in several brain regions, something you certainly can't do with listening to music!
You mix up monitoring brain activity with checking for brain damage. Hard to believe you can't distinguish that.



> http://www.academyanalyticarts.org/fores.htm


Again, nobody said the chemical imbalance theory is the definite answer. If there is an imbalance it might as well be a downstream effect.



> Again the same thing as above; brain imaging is not a reliable source of *DIAGNOSING *mental illness. In fact if anything its laughable. Sorry but your going to have to try harder than this.


What exactely is laughable with brain imaging? The finer the resolution of these imaging technique will become, the better the diagnostic possibilities for mental diseases.



> I have been asking you to prove to me of a chemical imbalance and what medical test psychiatrist/doctors use to *DIAGNOSE *patients but you have prove to me nothing. How are we trolls? We present to you strong arguments, hard evidence, and simple questions that you cannot answer. Psychiatry is not backed up by science and you know it unless you can prove to me otherwise. The DSM is not backed up by science; homosexuality was once a mental illness in the DSM.


Ok, I will report you now. This is getting out of hand. Asking the same "medical test" bull**** over and over again. What a drag and annoyance for everyone reading this.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> I have been asking you to prove to me of a chemical imbalance and what medical test psychiatrist/doctors use to *DIAGNOSE *patients but you have prove to me nothing. How are we trolls? We present to you strong arguments, hard evidence, and simple questions that you cannot answer. Psychiatry is not backed up by science and you know it unless you can prove to me otherwise. The DSM is not backed up by science; homosexuality was once a mental illness in the DSM.
> 
> Where is your strong evidence? The brain imaging is laughable at best as you can read from my post up above. You guys are going to have to do better than that. :yes
> 
> In the coming days I'll post some more things because I'm busy with my life right now.


I dont need to believe in the chemical imbalance theory to understand that meds do have a positive effect on some people. The chemical imbalance theory is not gospel and believed by all. It is exactly that... a 'theory' not a law. I have never in any of my posts mentioned support for the chemical imbalance theory in relation to depression. Get your facts right.

Also, please post an article that has been peer reviewed and is in journal format. *Not some cheap nasty heavily opinionated wordpad document that someone with no expertise has patched together.*

You dont seem to understand that quality sources' validate an argument. Hillarious


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

*If you can't be civil then this discussion is over.*


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