# Brain damage in SSRI's



## nightwalker (Nov 20, 2008)

Can SSRIs cause longterm brain damage? 
i just read 2 articles indicating that there has not been enough research on SSRI's and that the FDA did not sufficiently blah blah blah for PRozac.. 

I started taking prozac yesterday..
I'm afraid that Prozac will give me long term damage for my central nervous system or the "development of my linings". 

I just turned 16 and i dont want my body to be messed up in the future because of Prozac


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## Little Willow (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh, boy. Someone should find this out for sure soon. Now I'm concerned...
Yikes


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm pretty sure they don't, in fact, they probably prevent a lot of neurotoxicity from depression.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Untreated chronic depression can cause brain damage. 

Edit: Damn... Euphoria was faster.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

nightwalker said:


> I just turned 16 and i dont want my body to be messed up in the future because of Prozac


Prozac has been on the market since 1988, so it's been around longer than you. I very much doubt that it has any serious long-term effects that have not yet become apparent in the first 21 years of extensive use.


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## beaches09 (Feb 1, 2009)

yeah I was reading about the brain damage from untreated depression and even saw some pics of brain scans. It was pretty scary. Especially since I've personally been keep my depression untreated for a few years, it was freaky for me. If you have depression, treat that crap man!

If it's very mild though and controllable by natural supplements and means then I would be one to say maybe just don't bother going this route.

I started my first SSRI when I was about 15/16 too.


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

Go tell it to Tom Cruse LOL

I herd that most of the kids who did those school shootings were on or coming off SSRI's, I wonder if the meds had anything to do with it???


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> Go tell it to Tom Cruse LOL


Tom one's told me SSRIs could make heads explode, and David Miscavige could prove it, but he was pretty drunk back then.


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## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

Hard to say. If you compare SSRI's with all the other drugs people take (nicotine, alcohol, marijuana, and all the hard drugs), SSRI's seem kind of wimpy in comparison. Who knows though. I would do some research on that yourself if you are worried about it.

The biggest danger of SSRI's is when you first start taking them. Suicidal ideation, violent thoughts, and agitation are rare but very serious side effects.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

kev said:


> Hard to say. If you compare SSRI's with all the other drugs people take (nicotine, alcohol, marijuana, and all the hard drugs), SSRI's seem kind of wimpy in comparison.


SSRIs' ability to be counterproductive to depression and anxiety probably matches nicotine and alcohol. Then again, this only lasts a few weeks, instead of the long death you're practically guaranteed from heavily abusing the others.

As for marijuana, it's less dangerous than water. No one has ever died from cannabis overdose (or long-term use), but tons of people have drowned or "water overdosed". I suppose the public are willing to ban "dihydrogen monoxide" though, so nothing is safe from idiots.


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## beaches09 (Feb 1, 2009)

kev said:


> Hard to say. If you compare SSRI's with all the other drugs people take (nicotine, alcohol, marijuana, and all the hard drugs), SSRI's seem kind of wimpy in comparison. Who knows though. I would do some research on that yourself if you are worried about it.
> 
> The biggest danger of SSRI's is when you first start taking them. Suicidal ideation, violent thoughts, and agitation are rare but very serious side effects.


I will tell you SSRI's were my gateway drug. Before I ever started any type of SSRI I was always against all drugs. While I wasn't some goodie goodie by any means, when would my friends would do them I didn't care, but when they offered me I was like hell no.

After I started taking zoloft that became a whole different story. Everything seemed ok and grand. I started smokin weed, then after that I was offered coke I was like yeah sure why not, then acid, yeah sure why not, and the list kept going. When X came into the picture I actually sought it out from my friends. And they were smart and said dude no you shouldn't do this. But of course I did. Although I have no regrets at all. Just saying for the record since you just turned 16 man and are obviously worried about some stuff.


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## nightwalker (Nov 20, 2008)

><


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## dax (Nov 19, 2004)

I have never heard of an SSRI causing brain damage, I think you're in the clear there. But taking any drug at your age could interfere with your body in other ways and it's probably better not to take anything unless absolutely necessary until you've completely grown, probaly around age 18 or 19 for a girl. I have read that Prozac can stunt growth in young children but I don't know what it can do in teens. You might want to ask your doctor what the risks are, if there are any.


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

euphoria said:


> SSRIs' ability to be counterproductive to depression and anxiety probably matches nicotine and alcohol. Then again, this only lasts a few weeks, instead of the long death you're practically guaranteed from heavily abusing the others.
> 
> As for marijuana, it's less dangerous than water. No one has ever died from cannabis overdose (or long-term use), but tons of people have drowned or "water overdosed". I suppose the public are willing to ban "dihydrogen monoxide" though, so nothing is safe from idiots.


I don't think cannabis is as armless as people think ...
Marijuana (Cannabis) Use Triples Schizophrenia Risk
BBC News reports that Award-winning researchers have claimed that smoking cannabis triples the risk of getting schizophrenia. 
http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/002650.html


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

BradPit said:


> I don't think cannabis is as armless as people think ...
> Marijuana (Cannabis) Use Triples Schizophrenia Risk
> BBC News reports that Award-winning researchers have claimed that smoking cannabis triples the risk of getting schizophrenia.
> http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/002650.html


Those studies have no business publishing conclusions like "cannabis use triples schizophrenia risk", and the newspapers are even more retarded. Correlation is NOT causation. Did you know that according to some studies, 88% of schizophrenics smoke cigarettes, and most of them heavily? You could draw a MUCH stronger correlation between cigarettes and psychosis, but of course we see ****ing stupid anti-cannabis propaganda instead.

Even if it did triple the risk, do you know how much of the population it affects normally? 0.5%. 1.5% is still very unlikely, and certainly not even close to justifying banning cannabis.

I'll reaffirm what I said earlier: if you have odd beliefs, superstition (including hyper-religiousity), paranoia or any other classic signs of early psychosis, don't take dopamine-stimulating drugs!

I'll be pleased when drugs like kynurenine-oxoglutarate transaminase inhibitors are developed and we can consign schizophrenia to the history books.


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## nightwalker (Nov 20, 2008)

So most likely, Prozac won't stunt my growth, or make my brain grow improperly?


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## kintrovert (Oct 28, 2005)

euphoria said:


> .
> 
> I'll reaffirm what I said earlier: if you have odd beliefs, superstition (including hyper-religiousity), *paranoia or any other classic signs of early psychosis, don't take dopamine-stimulating drugs!*


Interesting. According to my previous psychiatrist - I have paranoia and a mild degree of psychosis - and she put me on Wellbutrin. I had another psychiatrist attempt to put me on Wellbutrin - although from the beginning of my time with her, she was fixated on my "paranoia" and "schizoid" affective disorder.

Should they be sued for malpractice? (I'm not being sarcastic.)


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Did she prescribe other drugs? What symptoms do you have? Is the diagnosis "schizoid personality disorder" or "schizoaffective disorder"? Are you just afraid that people reject you or that they could follow and/or hurt you? In case of real paranoia/psychosis Wellbutrin would make all things worse (as it increases dopamine) and Neuroleptics would help (they antagonize dopamine).


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

kintrovert said:


> Interesting. According to my previous psychiatrist - I have paranoia and a mild degree of psychosis - and she put me on Wellbutrin. I had another psychiatrist attempt to put me on Wellbutrin - although from the beginning of my time with her, she was fixated on my "paranoia" and "schizoid" affective disorder.
> 
> Should they be sued for malpractice? (I'm not being sarcastic.)


As Medline said, it depends what you mean by that. "Schizoid personality disorder" is actually helped by more dopamine as it involves no psychosis, but schizotypal, schizoaffective, etc.; those do involve psychosis and should NEVER be treated with dopaminergic drugs like Wellbutrin, as this will MASSIVELY increase psychotic symptoms. Same goes for drugs like nicotine and THC (in cannabis).

I think the whole culture of suing everyone in America is stupid; you should just report her to her superiors. Suing without being harmed mentally/physically is pure greed.


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## n1kkuh (Jul 11, 2008)

nightwalker said:


> So most likely, Prozac won't stunt my growth, or make my brain grow improperly?


lol, no one really answered your question. But then again it is kind of hard to answer this question because prozac has only been around for 21 years or something like that. So its hard to tell what long long term effects it will have. However, I can tell you that I have known kids who have taking AD's since they were in elementary school. I haven't noticed any growth stunting or anything like that. I say if it makes you feel better, then take it, but that's just me.


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## OhNoTaylor (Nov 3, 2008)

I don't know if they cause brain damage, but I do know that the brain zaps that I experienced on and withdrawing from Lexapro put me off ever trying an SSRI again.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

To answer everyone's question, no, it is very unlikely that SSRIs cause brain damage. With things like this it is almost impossible to say for sure, but with over 2 decades of being on the market it isn't likely. As said before, SSRIs are neuroprotective.

Then again, I never got anything from SSRIs that couldn't have been achieved with a fat spliff, like not giving a **** and being lazy. The funny thing is that cannabis is also neuroprotective.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> The funny thing is that cannabis is also neuroprotective.


Which could mean that Rimonabant or CB1-antagonists in general may be neurotoxic.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I think I would rather cut my own arm off with a circular saw than go on CB1 antagonists for any purpose. Horrible drugs.


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## n1kkuh (Jul 11, 2008)

euphoria said:


> Then again, I never got anything from SSRIs that couldn't have been achieved with a fat spliff, like not giving a **** and being lazy. The funny thing is that cannabis is also neuroprotective.


So basically your giving me an excuse to pick up a fat *** sack while I'm on prozac? Man its on as soon as I finish up my finals (which is actually in 4 hours from now, hence the late post, I'm staying up all night! how fun!!!)


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

n1kkuh said:


> So basically your giving me an excuse to pick up a fat *** sack while I'm on prozac? Man its on as soon as I finish up my finals (which is actually in 4 hours from now, hence the late post, I'm staying up all night! how fun!!!)


Cannabis + SSRI = fun. Go for it.


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

Cannabis + benzo = FTW


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Cerberus said:


> Cannabis + benzo = FTW


FTW indeed.


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## back2life (Feb 27, 2009)

careful with cannibus i say to myself, seen to many brothers to many down, including myself being one of them (while i was on ssri's) i went psychotic, on cannabis. also psychedelics. they all put pressure on me alot more, although then again i smoked everyday when i was younger, i doubt that period will ever return. 

look after your mates... my mate burnt half his parents house down mixing ssri's and cannibus with paranoia.... but i understand sometimes its hard to intervene. ahh life


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## kintrovert (Oct 28, 2005)

Medline said:


> Did she prescribe other drugs? What symptoms do you have? Is the diagnosis "schizoid personality disorder" or "schizoaffective disorder"? Are you just afraid that people reject you or that they could follow and/or hurt you? In case of real paranoia/psychosis Wellbutrin would make all things worse (as it increases dopamine) and Neuroleptics would help (they antagonize dopamine).


Well, in trying to recall her diagnoses from my old records - I believe she sometimes wrote "schizoid", sometimes "schizotypal", and sometimes "schizoaffective" (I'll have to review the records to be 100% sure and accurate) - I think it depended on her impressions of my thoughts/behavior from session to session. In any event, she was convinced that there was a "paranoid" element to my severe depressive illness.

To answer your other question - my "paranoia" purely centers around people...what they're thinking about me, thinking they dislike me, fearing rejection....thinking that the things they say and do to me involve negative motives. I think this type of "paranoia" is intertwined with my severe social anxiety disorder - but one psychiatrist in particular seemed to emphasize my so-called "paranoia" at the expense of realizing (or understanding) the full extent of my anxiety around people.

I don't get those paranoid thoughts about the FBI speaking to me through the t.v. or someone is out to assassinate me. I do think that people are following/watching me whenever I shop in stores, though - but this is not really paranoia, this is reality (being treated as a thief or as a potential thief).


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## kintrovert (Oct 28, 2005)

euphoria said:


> As Medline said, it depends what you mean by that. "Schizoid personality disorder" is actually helped by more dopamine as it involves no psychosis, but schizotypal, schizoaffective, etc.; those do involve psychosis and should NEVER be treated with dopaminergic drugs like Wellbutrin, as this will MASSIVELY increase psychotic symptoms. Same goes for drugs like nicotine and THC (in cannabis).
> 
> I think the whole culture of suing everyone in America is stupid; you should just report her to her superiors. Suing without being harmed mentally/physically is pure greed.


Nice to see that you assume that I haven't been mentally or physically harmed in some way - as if you're sure about this.

You know, when I asked you if I should sue for malpractice - and then added that I wasn't being sarcastic - I did it with the intention of not wanting you to think that I was mocking you, or being sarcastic with _you_. Because making fun of your statement wasn't my intention. However, this does not mean that I was being totally serious - I actually made that statement with levity. And this isn't me trying to backtrack either - that was my real intent (that I didn't think I had to spell out letter for letter).

Although I wasn't being all that serious with my comment (believe me - I am a long way from seriously thinking, "I should sue those quacks") it seems that you were as serious as a heart attack in your response. It's ironic that I tried to make sure that I spared your feelings - but you weren't all that concerned with my feelings when you made your disdain of my statement clear, while making a pretty strong assumption (about whether or not I've been harmed) in your mission to let us know how you feel about "the culture of suing everyone in America". :roll

Brain damage attributed to one source is often extremely hard (if not impossible) to prove - but the possibility exists that I've sustained some form of brain or bodily damage by Wellbutrin. You're clear across the Atlantic and you act as though you know for sure whether or not I've been harmed by Wellbutrin. Those are some pretty strong powers there.

For the record, I don't agree with going overboard with lawsuits - but they can be a way to dig up the truth (since the truth is often suppressed in the blind rush for profit) and to hold people accountable. Since people, or corporations, are often so darn callous - practically the only way to get them to feel some sense of remorse or accountability is to hit them in the pocketbook. And sometimes, that doesn't even work - but if there can't be any psychic accountability, at least there is monetary accountability.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

kintrovert said:


> Nice to see that you assume that I haven't been mentally or physically harmed in some way - as if you're sure about this.
> 
> You know, when I asked you if I should sue for malpractice - and then added that I wasn't being sarcastic - I did it with the intention of not wanting you to think that I was mocking you, or being sarcastic with _you_. Because making fun of your statement wasn't my intention. However, this does not mean that I was being totally serious - I actually made that statement with levity. And this isn't me trying to backtrack either - that was my real intent (that I didn't think I had to spell out letter for letter).


Jesus christ man, chill out. This is just the internet.

I was saying that just as an "in my opinion" remark. Of course I have no idea if you're actually gonna sue them. Your post couldn't have been clearer about your intention to sue, however.



> Brain damage attributed to one source is often extremely hard (if not impossible) to prove - but the possibility exists that I've sustained some form of brain or bodily damage by Wellbutrin. You're clear across the Atlantic and you act as though you know for sure whether or not I've been harmed by Wellbutrin. Those are some pretty strong powers there.


Wellbutrin has never been linked to brain damage. I suppose there is a slight possibility, but it's very unlikely.



> careful with cannibus i say to myself, seen to many brothers to many down, including myself being one of them (while i was on ssri's) i went psychotic, on cannabis. also psychedelics. they all put pressure on me alot more, although then again i smoked everyday when i was younger, i doubt that period will ever return.
> 
> look after your mates... my mate burnt half his parents house down mixing ssri's and cannibus with paranoia.... but i understand sometimes its hard to intervene. ahh life


Really? I have been über-stoned all day every day for weeks at a time, and don't even get paranoia, let alone psychosis.


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## nightwalker (Nov 20, 2008)

polythene said:


> Well, I started taking SSRI antidepressants (Zoloft, long-term) when I was 17 for depression and anxiety. They have had a noticeable effect on the way I think and process information, and most notably have affected my memory. I took Zoloft for about 2 years, alternating with other SSRI/SSNI drugs, and can now only recall about 10% (that's a generous estimate) of my long-term, childhood/adolescent episodic memories. I can still make semantic memories - enough to get by in uni - but even that has been significantly impaired. These problems only developed after I started on SSRIs. I also always felt 'cloudy' and fogged up on them, and never truly felt clear-headed or completely present in my life. There were absolutely no pleasant 'druglike' effects, so don't expect that either.
> 
> People dismiss SSRIs as very innocuous - harmless - and others say don't even bother because they won't do a thing. But really? Who knows? There haven't been many conclusive studies on the long-term effects of antidepressants on the brain. If I'm wrong (I've searched, believe me), feel free to correct me. I realize they really help some people, but there have been tons of others who have been put on them that haven't noticed appreciable changes in mood or decreases in anxiety.
> 
> ...


Well I've been taking Prozac for a week, and it has cleared up most of my fog and i actually feel a little better. But now you're scaring me. I plan to take Prozac for a MAXIMUM of 6 months. I really don't want to get memory impaired.. omg now i'm really scared.

I've been doing therapy for almost half a year and it has done nothing for my anxiety because my depression and dissociation FOG has been blocking me from exposing myself about it.. which is why i'm taking Prozac to see if it'll help me "wake up" and it did. But now i'm starting to regret trying it..

i just turned 16. i dont wanna lose all my wonderful childhood memories


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## nightwalker (Nov 20, 2008)

I looked up "ssri brain damage" on google and found this:

http://books.google.fr/books?id=hBd...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#PPA35,M1

scary.


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## ontourage (May 24, 2009)

try being a little more specific when youre refering to "brain damage." in the reading ive done, and ive done a lot, ive never heard of any ssri causing actual brain damage. remember, if a doctor prescribed it to you, he/she did it because the advantages clearly out weigh any of the negatives. side affects and withdraws also do not count as "brain damgage." i personally know ppl who have been taking ssri's literally since they came out and theyre just fine. and if you want to know more, call up any pharmacy and ask to talk to the actual pharmacist. (this tends to be easier sometimes as doctors might not get back to you right away)


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

polythene said:


> I don't know how common memory loss is, but I know that SSRIs are the reason my memory is terrible.


I have to admit, I laughed when I read that and saw you posted it twice.


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## kintrovert (Oct 28, 2005)

euphoria said:


> Jesus christ man, chill out. This is just the internet.
> 
> I was saying that just as an "in my opinion" remark. Of course I have no idea if you're actually gonna sue them. Your post couldn't have been clearer about your intention to sue, however.


Perhaps you're going to believe what you want to believe - so I won't waste too much more energy trying to clarify myself. But your statement of "Your post couldn't have been clearer about your intention to sue" is a red flashing sign that you took my question "Should they be sued for malpractice?" way more literally than I intended it. Clearly my attempt at dry, mild, farcical humor failed - at least where you're concerned.

If only you had been inside my mind as I wrote that - you'd be shocked (and perhaps disappointed) at how little the "vindictive justice" wheels were actually churning. 

If I really _weren't_ kidding about my question about whether or not the docs should be sued, my wording would have been different: I would have added a "I'm not kidding", or "I'm not joking" to my question. I would have felt the need to be clear about my seriousness - because (believe it or not) I inherently consider the question a bit farcical in this context. The reason I used "sarcastic" instead of "kidding" or "joking" has already been explained.

I fleetingly thought about adding a longer disclaimer such as "I'm kidding, but I'm not mocking your post" - but if I had to say all of that, it would have just killed the whole, delicate joke (or the joke that didn't quite go over). In hindsight, I see that I was risking someone misinterpreting my intentions and taking me too seriously - which you certainly did. It's a miscommunication issue - it happens - but few people enjoy having their comments rudely and negatively distorted.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

kintrovert said:


> Perhaps you're going to believe what you want to believe - so I won't waste too much more energy trying to clarify myself. But your statement of "Your post couldn't have been clearer about your intention to sue" is a red flashing sign that you took my question "Should they be sued for malpractice?" way more literally than I intended it. Clearly my attempt at dry, mild, farcical humor failed - at least where you're concerned.
> 
> If only you had been inside my mind as I wrote that - you'd be shocked (and perhaps disappointed) at how little the "vindictive justice" wheels were actually churning.
> 
> ...


Are you actually serious? I stand by my original comment: take a chill pill man.


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## kintrovert (Oct 28, 2005)

rocknroll714 said:


> That was quite an overreaction if you ask me. I suggest you chill out, euphoria meant nothing ill-conceived. Besides, it's true many people in America (in contrast to the rest of the world) are trigger happy when it comes to suing. I'm an American myself and I have no problem saying that. My very own dirtbag father is one of those kinds of people as a matter of fact. Anyway, I believe euphoria was making a general statement. By no means do I think he was directly referring to you.


I somewhat disagree re: Euphoria's abrasive comment - but I'll just leave it at that. I've already said enough.



> Also, regarding Bupropion/Wellbutrin and toxicity.. it appears to be completely devoid of any toxicity whatsoever in the traditional sense, i.e., it does not induce oxidative stress or excitotoxicity.


Hmmm - seems like I remember reading the opposite in at least one source. I thought I read somewhere that drugs that increase the action of "excitatory" neurotransmitters such as dopamine and norephinephrine (and Buproprion/Wellbutrin does work on norephinephrine) do induce some oxidative stress. When axons are stimulated, oxidative stress is induced and the axons can even end up "dying".

I can't exactly see inside my brain, but there were definite signs that I incurred oxidative stress in other areas of my body while on Wellbutrin. Maybe it was the Wellbutrin interacting with some toxins already present in my body, I don't know. Or maybe what I saw/see as "oxidative stress" was/is actually something else. But oxidative stress remains a possibile side-effect I suffered on that drug - I definitely can't rule it out.


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## gordonjohnson008 (Nov 2, 2008)

polythene said:


> Well, I started taking SSRI antidepressants (Zoloft, long-term) when I was 17 for depression and anxiety. They have had a noticeable effect on the way I think and process information, and most notably have affected my memory. I took Zoloft for about 2 years, alternating with other SSRI/SSNI drugs, and can now only recall about 10% (that's a generous estimate) of my long-term, childhood/adolescent episodic memories. I can still make semantic memories - enough to get by in uni - but even that has been significantly impaired. These problems only developed after I started on SSRIs. I also always felt 'cloudy' and fogged up on them, and never truly felt clear-headed or completely present in my life. There were absolutely no pleasant 'druglike' effects, so don't expect that either.
> 
> People dismiss SSRIs as very innocuous - harmless - and others say don't even bother because they won't do a thing. But really? Who knows? There haven't been many conclusive studies on the long-term effects of antidepressants on the brain. If I'm wrong (I've searched, believe me), feel free to correct me. I realize they really help some people, but there have been tons of others who have been put on them that haven't noticed appreciable changes in mood or decreases in anxiety.
> 
> ...


I've experienced similar memory impairment and cognitive fog with Paxil, though not nearly as bad as has been described here. However, for the 4 years where I was majorly depressed before taking Paxil, I hardly remember anything. Part of the reason was because I didn't do anything exciting with my life to create new memories, it was all routine. Part of the reason was the depression too, and I was in a zombie-like state, not really engaged.

Life is short, and I was struggling with major depression on my own for some time, I went on Paxil and I'm happy I did so. I tried going off of it for 6 months but got down in the dumps and now am back on it. I'm not sure what the side effects of being on it for a long period of time are and it's definitely a huge huge risk, but if your depression & anxiety are making your life miserable, SSRI's can brighten things up a little.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> I'm not sure what the side effects of being on it for a long period of time are and it's definitely a huge huge risk.


I really doubt it's a "huge huge risk" to stay on an SSRI for a long or even very long period.  Untreated major depression is for sure riskier as it can cause suicide.


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## irishguy (Jun 17, 2009)

please see my post on "proxac stunts physical development.." as it may prove useful to you in your decision on whether to continue with ssri's.


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## EmilyFay (Jan 23, 2009)

gordonjohnson008 said:


> I've experienced similar memory impairment and cognitive fog with Paxil, though not nearly as bad as has been described here. However, for the 4 years where I was majorly depressed before taking Paxil, I hardly remember anything. Part of the reason was because I didn't do anything exciting with my life to create new memories, it was all routine. Part of the reason was the depression too, and I was in a zombie-like state, not really engaged.
> 
> Life is short, and I was struggling with major depression on my own for some time, I went on Paxil and I'm happy I did so. I tried going off of it for 6 months but got down in the dumps and now am back on it. I'm not sure what the side effects of being on it for a long period of time are and it's definitely a huge huge risk, but if your depression & anxiety are making your life miserable, SSRI's can brighten things up a little.





polythene said:


> Well, I started taking SSRI antidepressants (Zoloft, long-term) when I was 17 for depression and anxiety. They have had a noticeable effect on the way I think and process information, and most notably have affected my memory. I took Zoloft for about 2 years, alternating with other SSRI/SSNI drugs, and can now only recall about 10% (that's a generous estimate) of my long-term, childhood/adolescent episodic memories. I can still make semantic memories - enough to get by in uni - but even that has been significantly impaired. These problems only developed after I started on SSRIs. I also always felt 'cloudy' and fogged up on them, and never truly felt clear-headed or completely present in my life. There were absolutely no pleasant 'druglike' effects, so don't expect that either.
> 
> People dismiss SSRIs as very innocuous - harmless - and others say don't even bother because they won't do a thing. But really? Who knows? There haven't been many conclusive studies on the long-term effects of antidepressants on the brain. If I'm wrong (I've searched, believe me), feel free to correct me. I realize they really help some people, but there have been tons of others who have been put on them that haven't noticed appreciable changes in mood or decreases in anxiety.
> 
> ...


I had bad memory problems while on a SSRI too, it was Prozac, I barely remember anything from high school and it affected my grades too. I was a straight A student in 9th grade and after beginning Prozac I could careless about my grades or anything really. I've been off of it now for three months after being on it for four years.


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## gordonjohnson008 (Nov 2, 2008)

How is your memory now, is it noticably better?


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

there have been so many reported incidences of brain damage from SSRI's that they should be used as a last resort only. My heart and prayers go out to all those who have lost loved ones after taking these drugs or have experienced adverse reactions themselves. Remember guys, "antidepressants do not fix a chemical imbalance, they create one."


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Medline said:


> I really doubt it's a "huge huge risk" to stay on an SSRI for a long or even very long period.  Untreated major depression is for sure riskier as it can cause suicide.


why does it seem like you are totally enamored with these drugs? Dude wake up and realize that these drugs are not the most effective means of treating anxiety, nor the safest. Also realize that the science behind them, and mental illness in general, is flawed and profit driven.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> why does it seem like you are totally enamored with these drugs? Dude wake up and realize that these drugs are not the most effective means of treating anxiety, nor the safest. Also realize that the science behind them, and mental illness in general, is flawed and profit driven.


Do you have ANY concievable idea of how much money un-managed/un-treated mental illness costs national governments?

Its phenomenal. I dont have the exact figures but i know its disturbingly disproportionate.


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## michael10364 (Feb 4, 2011)

my experience with permanent effects from antidepressants goes like this.
hair falling out 3 times faster.
tradive dyskinesia in the muscles in my face.
foods seem to affect my emotions 100 times more than they used to.
what emotions i do have are very numb.
i cant exercise nearly as much as i used to.
apathetic behavior increased hugely.
memory 100 times worse.
i am just no longer as smart as i used to be.
before i started on my 1st antidepressant i had mild depression, a few weeks after starting, my depression became much more severe. i had gone from briefly thinking about suicide once a week to thinking about it every single minute i am awake.
all this was caused by psychiatric meds, and it has seemingly been permanent. at least for 6 and a half years now.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Do you have ANY concievable idea of how much money un-managed/un-treated mental illness costs national governments?
> 
> Its phenomenal. I dont have the exact figures but i know its disturbingly disproportionate.


Do you have ANY idea how flawed the treatment is for mental illness? How about this: why don't they take out the one size fits all drug therapy approach and the linear approach to treating illness and instead focus on finding underlying conditions and actually healing people instead of chemically suppressing symptoms while creating new problems? Did that ever cross your mind? Moreover, do you have ANY conceivable idea yourself of the additional illnesses caused by these drugs which cost tax payers money? Let's not get into money buddy bc money is why they constantly use the drug approach which is a flawed science and in itself only marginally effective on the whole. The doctors who work for government get the same training as other doctors and so use this flawed, dangerous, only marginally effective approach.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

I think these drugs do cause permanent brain damage. Most of the damage is very subtle. If anything drug companies are the ones out after your money not your health. Drug companies have one of the best marketing departments; they are able to rack in billions a year. Those are facts if you choose to disagree with them than that is your choice.


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## Cletis (Oct 10, 2011)

nightwalker said:


> Can SSRIs cause longterm brain damage?
> i just read 2 articles indicating that there has not been enough research on SSRI's and that the FDA did not sufficiently blah blah blah for PRozac..
> 
> I started taking prozac yesterday..
> ...


I've been taking Zoloft since the mid 1990's (with a few years off) and my mental function is much better now than it was then. My Doctor told me I didn't have enough serotonin in my brain and that by taking these pills I'm getting it up to a "normal" level. It's made a tremendous difference in how I feel. I feel it's improved my nervous system not damaged it.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I've been taking Zoloft since the mid 1990's (with a few years off) and my mental function is much better now than it was then. My Doctor told me I didn't have enough serotonin in my brain and that by taking these pills I'm getting it up to a "normal" level. It's made a tremendous difference in how I feel. I feel it's improved my nervous system not damaged it.


I suppose that's good if you feel that it makes your mental functioning better, unfortunately this is not the case for millions of others who get on these and then can't get off.

So you said you have been off and on them, I am curious how were u able to stop and for how long did u stay off. Keep in mind, the neurotransmitter theory is ONLY and theory, it has never been proven. It was marketing my friend. There have been studies that show that even healthy happy people can have "low" neurotransmitters and depressed people can have "normal" neurotransmitters. There is not doubt brain chemistry has a lot to do with how one feels and how we function cognitively, but keep in mind also that psychiatric drugs can CAUSE a chemical imbalance, among other things.


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## Cletis (Oct 10, 2011)

> So you said you have been off and on them, I am curious how were u able to stop and for how long did u stay off


First time I went off of it I had been taking it for about 5 years. My Psychiatrist moved to another city and my prescription eventually ran out. I just went without it for about 2 years and eventually my symptoms returned and were so bad I had to find another Doc ASAP. I went to a GP to get a physical and told him I had anxiety/depression and that Zoloft had worked good for me in the past and he wrote me a prescription. He only writes out prescriptions for a year at a time. Last year I procrastinated going to see him and was off Zoloft for about a year when my symptoms started to return. I went back recently and got another prescription and just as before, my symptoms improved tremendously again after restarting Zoloft.

I realize not everybody benefits from these drugs but I do. My anxiety/depression is genetic. It runs on one side of my family and I've had it all my life. The fact that the Zoloft improves the way I feel so much shows I have an imbalance.


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## successful (Mar 21, 2009)

I believer ssri's are one of the worst meds.
I rather be addicted to Benzos, Opiates before i take a ssri/anti depressants. 

They make you suicidal, crazy, make you hallucinate, and all type of things. SSRI's can't be good for the brain.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

Cletis said:


> I've been taking Zoloft since the mid 1990's (with a few years off) and my mental function is much better now than it was then. My Doctor told me I didn't have enough serotonin in my brain and that by taking these pills I'm getting it up to a "normal" level. It's made a tremendous difference in how I feel. I feel it's improved my nervous system not damaged it.


Thats great that your feeling good and everything but how did your doctor test your serotonin in your brain? How did your doctor test that your brain had enough serotonin? My guess is that your doctor did not ran any test he just said it and it was true? See I have a problem with that; it's just has too many flaws.



Cletis said:


> First time I went off of it I had been taking it for about 5 years. My Psychiatrist moved to another city and my prescription eventually ran out. I just went without it for about 2 years and eventually my symptoms returned and were so bad I had to find another Doc ASAP. I went to a GP to get a physical and told him I had anxiety/depression and that Zoloft had worked good for me in the past and he wrote me a prescription. He only writes out prescriptions for a year at a time. Last year I procrastinated going to see him and was off Zoloft for about a year when my symptoms started to return. I went back recently and got another prescription and just as before, my symptoms improved tremendously again after restarting Zoloft.
> 
> I realize not everybody benefits from these drugs but I do. My anxiety/depression is genetic. It runs on one side of my family and I've had it all my life. The fact that the Zoloft improves the way I feel so much shows I have an imbalance.


Look I'm not trying to attack you or anything if you feel the meds are working for you than all the power to you. From what you've described it seems like you've built a dependence/addiction to the meds. Plus whenever you get off the meds your symptoms tends to get worse and than you feel like you absolutely need the meds.

How do you know you have an "imbalance" again? What chemical imbalance test did you take? The fact that you take meds and all of sudden you feel something doesn't mean that you had an "imbalance". Prove it.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Do you have ANY idea how flawed the treatment is for mental illness? How about this: why don't they take out the one size fits all drug therapy approach and the linear approach to treating illness and instead focus on finding underlying conditions and actually healing people instead of chemically suppressing symptoms while creating new problems? Did that ever cross your mind? Moreover, do you have ANY conceivable idea yourself of the additional illnesses caused by these drugs which cost tax payers money?


The argument here is not about the efficacy of treatments per se, but about the cost to employers and national economy as a result of it.

The majority of people do not experinece side effects of medications. They are in the 5-15% and exceedingly rarely in the top end.

Thus they are useful for the majority that choose, want and benefit from their use.

As far as i know there are no 'known' illnesses that antidepressants cause, and even persist with an individual as soon as the med is stopped.

Untreated mental disorders cost >>>>> than treated mental disorders side effect cost.


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## Cletis (Oct 10, 2011)

> Thats great that your feeling good and everything but how did your doctor test your serotonin in your brain? How did your doctor test that your brain had enough serotonin? My guess is that your doctor did not ran any test he just said it and it was true? See I have a problem with that; it's just has too many flaws.


LOL No tests. He said he could tell by my symptoms and the way I reacted to the drug that my serotonin levels were low. Also because of my genetic background (he treated several members of my family) and how those relatives reacted to it and their symptoms. He was one of the most respected psychiatrists in his area, by the way. He has since passed on. May he R.I.P.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Cletis said:


> First time I went off of it I had been taking it for about 5 years. My Psychiatrist moved to another city and my prescription eventually ran out. I just went without it for about 2 years and eventually my symptoms returned and were so bad I had to find another Doc ASAP. I went to a GP to get a physical and told him I had anxiety/depression and that Zoloft had worked good for me in the past and he wrote me a prescription. He only writes out prescriptions for a year at a time. Last year I procrastinated going to see him and was off Zoloft for about a year when my symptoms started to return. I went back recently and got another prescription and just as before, my symptoms improved tremendously again after restarting Zoloft.
> 
> I realize not everybody benefits from these drugs but I do. My anxiety/depression is genetic. It runs on one side of my family and I've had it all my life. The fact that the Zoloft improves the way I feel so much shows I have an imbalance.


That's pretty amazing how u were able to just stop the drugs without serious withdrawal symptoms. I was unable to do this as I suffered horrible withdrawal. As. Long as you are happy and the benefits outweigh the side effects then I don't see a big problem. However, keep in mind that there may be side effects that you are currently unaware of or that are developing. Its widely known that these drugs are not made for long term usage and there can be complications. One thing that AD do is alter male sperm by defragmenting the DNA in the sperm and so there is a possibility that the drugs can cause problems if you decide to have children.

As far as the imbalance thing, I disagree with you that since the drugs relieve your symptoms that they are correcting some kind of brain imbalance. I say this because there are plenty of substances, herbs, etc that relieve one's symptoms but do not directly have an effect on brain chemistry. If your problem was only low serotonin then simply adding 5htp would have done the trick. Furthermore, as I said, studies show that neurotransmitter levels can be low in happy people and high in sad people so they have never been able to prove the chemical imbalance theory. AD have a very complicated mechanism of action and even the packet inserts state that they are not sure how they work, but for some they work. It is now pretty widely accepted that the pharmaceutical industry inflated the link between neurotransmitters and mental health. The reasons of our challenges can be many; one may have a gluten sensitivity that manifests as anxiety; one may have an adrenal disfunction that manifests as anxiety; one may have a hormonal imbalance that manifests as anxiety. All these problems have nothing to do with your brain chemistry and so you can see that its not only about neurotransmitters.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> However, keep in mind that there may be side effects that you are currently unaware of *or that are developing*. Its widely known that these drugs are not made for long term usage and there can be complications. One thing that AD do is alter male sperm by defragmenting the DNA in the sperm and so there is a possibility that the drugs can cause problems if you decide to have children.
> .


Im sorry, but you are talking absoulte crap. Do you seriously claim that if side effects are not present in an individual, that they are some kind of un-noticeable and serious processes occuring that will turn into problems? *Such bs.* Name one case in history whereby this has happend. Goodluck with that.



bruno2006 said:


> As far as the imbalance thing, I disagree with you that since the drugs relieve your symptoms that they are correcting some kind of brain imbalance. I* say this because there are plenty of substances, herbs, etc that relieve one's symptoms but do not directly have an effect on brain chemistry.* If your problem was only low serotonin then simply adding 5htp would have done the trick. Furthermore, as I said, studies show that neurotransmitter levels can be low in happy people and high in sad people so they have never been able to prove the chemical imbalance theory. AD have a very complicated mechanism of action and even the packet inserts state that they are not sure how they work, but for some they work. It is now pretty widely accepted that the pharmaceutical industry inflated the link between neurotransmitters and mental health. The reasons of our challenges can be many; one may have a gluten sensitivity that manifests as anxiety; *one may have an adrenal disfunction that manifests as anxiety; one may have a hormonal imbalance that manifests as anxiety*. All these problems have nothing to do with your brain chemistry and so you can see that its not only about neurotransmitters.


1) What substances and herbs do you refer to, that you claim have positive effects without having psychoactive properites? If you refer to st johns wart then you obviously have no clue what you are talking about, as it has serotonergic properties.

2)* If you are familiar with the DSM, and its multi-axial system, then you would know that biological 'general medication conditons' are also assessed by any good psychiatrist.*

Axis I and II relate to mental disorders.

Axis III relates to general medical conditions that can cause other problems (like mental health issues).

Most capable psychiatrists would know how to evaluate the HPA axis and understand the cause of anxiety. Usually if someone complains of severe social anxiety, then no one is going to call for* Cushings syndrome, which is what you describe in your post.*

*Clearly you have very little understanding of how disorders are diagnosed and classified by specific criteria that must fit for a clinical diagnosis.*

I'd suggest you learn a little bit more about the field before making incorrect and oblivious comments.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> The argument here is not about the efficacy of treatments per se, but about the cost to employers and national economy as a result of it.
> 
> The majority of people do not experinece side effects of medications. They are in the 5-15% and exceedingly rarely in the top end.
> 
> ...


The argument has to take into consideration the efficacy this one size fits all, linear approach whether you want to go there or not. The proper treatment has everything to do with the cost that society bares and simply giving a drug based on flawed science is, obviously, not the answer. I have argued with you before about the efficacy of the drugs and do not need to go there again. There are so many causes of mental health issues and its so obvious that this entire drug approach is not the best, safest, or most ethical form of treatment.

In a previous thread I already discussed with you the numerous dangerous side effects caused by the drugs and also explained to you the many possible causes of mental health issues.

And do not go deflating the percentage of people who do not experience side effects. A lot of people had to drop out of the studies within the first few weeks bc the side effects were too severe, or because they became suicidal, among other causes. These studies were hidden from society and the drug companies proceeded to put the drugs on the market knowing the dangers. There is no doubt that many people benefit from the drugs, but there is a price to pay. To understand what I mean, you must understand the human body and how it functions as one. There is a mind body connection and this linear approach is not the best way.

What you seem to be saying is this: people are suffering and its costing money, therefore let's give them drug therapy that is potentially dangerous and not even that effective for many people. Really? How about people wake up and look around them and see the numerous possible causes of there problems.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> What you seem to be saying is this: people are suffering and its costing money, therefore let's give them drug therapy that is potentially dangerous and not even that effective for many people. Really? How about people wake up and look around them and see the numerous possible causes of there problems.


Dont put words in my mouth or claim to be recycling my text.
I said nothing of the sort.

I purely see individuals of mental disorder's as sufferer's. Nothing more.

I have always exercised my viewpoint that an individual should research and understand the mechanism of a drug before taking it. Further its up to the individual to choose whether they want to take it or not.

Ive never posted on anything to do with involuntary administration or against freedom of choice, like you have been incinuating.


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## michael10364 (Feb 4, 2011)

when i got my 1st antidepressant, cymbalta, i did research on it. i went to the manufacturers website and everything. that was in 2005 when i was 17, and i was too naive at the time to think that a drug company would want to fill your mind with BS about its drug. and advertisements were all over television about it too. it just seemed like their was so much scientific fact about it.
my dad at the time wasnt much for the idea of me taking an antidepressant, and i thought he was ignorant at the time because of it. i thought i knew better than him, and that he was just stuck in the past when medicine wasnt as advanced as it is nowdays. it wasnt until after taking it did ilearn that the drug companies and their meds are full of sh*t, and that my dad was right. and ever since trying cymbalta i have been battling to bring myself back to my normal brain functioning through trying other meds, only to end up in even worse shape.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Im sorry, but you are talking absoulte crap. Do you seriously claim that if side effects are not present in an individual, that they are some kind of un-noticeable and serious processes occuring that will turn into problems? *Such bs.* Name one case in history whereby this has happend. Goodluck with that.=QUOTE]
> 
> What substances and herbs do you refer to, that you claim have positive effects without having psychoactive properites? If you refer to st johns wart then you obviously have no clue what you are talking about, as it has serotonergic properties.
> 
> ...


Dont get your panties all in a twist. Diabetes is a well know illness caused by long term antidepressant use and this, obviously, does not develop over night; hence my statement that there are issues that can be developing that you are currently unaware of. Thats just one example of one possible illness that can develop on a subtle level, so again, dont get your panties in a twist.

The DSM? Really? hahah are you serious? You want to talk about crap, how about this for crap? The DSM is not scientifically based, this is well known. Lets not go there, please.

As far as herbs and other substances that can relieve mental health problems that do not directly affect neurotransmitters, I was thinking along the lines of chamomile or something like this. The whole neurotransmitter thing is just not as well accepted as you would like it to be because it has yet to be proven. I know that many substances do have an effect on brain chemistry, but its not all about neurotransmitters.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

Michael, that sucks and its really unfortunate. 
I have still suffered side effects from things that i have researched. Just because you read about it doesnt mean it will never effect you. 

I was just super vigilante about the side effects that i did have, and when it got to a point where it bothered me i said 'right this isnt the thing for me' and moved off it. So far i have not experienced any long-going side effects, but i understand some people do.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Dont put words in my mouth or claim to be recycling my text.
> I said nothing of the sort.
> 
> I purely see individuals of mental disorder's as sufferer's. Nothing more.
> ...


WTH??? This is exactly what you were insinuating! I correctly interpreted what you are getting at because this is the only approach you keep referring to despite the widespread controversy regarding AD and their effectiveness. Ughhh you are giving me a headache.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Michael, that sucks and its really unfortunate.
> I have still suffered side effects from things that i have researched. Just because you read about it doesnt mean it will never effect you.
> 
> I was just super vigilante about the side effects that i did have, and when it got to a point where it bothered me i said 'right this isnt the thing for me' and moved off it. So far i have not experienced any long-going side effects, but i understand some people do.


You see, you just admitted that your psychiatric drugs caused you side effects just like so many of us. Also, if the drugs are so safe and effective, why are you not on any? That seems sort of like a hypocrite coming here and trying to trash what I say with all your rhetoric and then promoting the drugs as the best treatment yet you are not even on them! Go figure!


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

Cletis said:


> LOL No tests. He said he could tell by my symptoms and the way I reacted to the drug that my serotonin levels were low. Also because of my genetic background (he treated several members of my family) and how those relatives reacted to it and their symptoms. He was one of the most respected psychiatrists in his area, by the way. He has since passed on. May he R.I.P.


I'm sorry to hear about your psychiatrists passing away may he R.I.P,

Think about it how can anyone including your late psychiatrist tell that your serotonin levels are low simply by observing your behavior, symptoms, reaction to drug? Does that make any sense? To me it certainly doesn't. That is like saying cocaine can correct your "chemical imbalance" simply by observing your behavior; it just has too many flaws and doesn't make any sense; tests have to ran in order to show proof and if no test are ran or doesn't exist than it is hard to believe.

Antidepressants are known to have caused akathisia, tardive dyskinesia and other mental dysfunctions; those are facts. The studies ran by drug companies themselves are severely flawed; they cover up suicides by labeling them as "drop outs" because that sounds better than suicide. They can ran as many trials as they want until they get at least 2 that are somewhat good to present to the FDA. There simply isn't any proof of these disorders existing; brain scans themselves are no proof of any mental disorder and this is according to big pharma themselves. These are facts.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Dont get your panties all in a twist. Diabetes is a well know illness caused by long term antidepressant use and this, obviously, does not develop over night; hence my statement that there are issues that can be developing that you are currently unaware of. Thats just one example of one possible illness that can develop on a subtle level, so again, dont get your panties in a twist. .


Haha, nice try. People need to opt for healthy options and be cautious of weight gained on a med. *A med may increase food consumption, but the med doesnt choose what food you mate mate. *Furthermore, if weight gain is an issue, for me that would be a reason to try something different.

By the way this is not a legitimate answer to your statement that

_ "These diseases may go un-noticed and occur later down the track"_
Diabetes related to lifestyle is a slow progressive problem with weight gain associated with it. 
*You dont just take SSRIs' and then 20 years later BANG DIABETES (oh it must have been the ssris'). *Im sorry but if thats your understanding of physiology and diet then your missing a few things.



bruno2006 said:


> The DSM? Really? hahah are you serious? You want to talk about crap, how about this for crap? The DSM is not scientifically based, this is well known. Lets not go there, please.
> 
> So are you saying that the disorders in Axis I, (schizophrenia, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, Substance use disorders) Axis II (Developmental Retardation and Personality Disorders) are just normal occurences in the population?
> 
> ...


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> WTH??? This is exactly what you were insinuating! I correctly interpreted what you are getting at because this is the only approach you keep referring to despite the widespread controversy regarding AD and their effectiveness. Ughhh you are giving me a headache.


Can you specify what you are actually accusing me of? I think you're the one being confusing.



bruno2006 said:


> You see, you just admitted that your psychiatric drugs caused you side effects just like so many of us. Also, if the drugs are so safe and effective, why are you not on any? That seems sort of like a hypocrite coming here and trying to trash what I say with all your rhetoric and then promoting the drugs as the best treatment yet you are not even on them! Go figure!


Side effects occur with every single drug on the world. Sometimes they occur to a greater degree in individuals. *IF its problematic to you, then stop.* Its not that hard. If you still want to seek relief from meds, try something else.

The logic really isnt that difficult to follow.

*For your information*, Im currently not taking any meds for GAD because i am trying a new migraine medication that can interfere with other medications. So before you think yourself to be some kind of smart ***, you might want to pull your head in.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Haha, nice try. People need to opt for healthy options and be cautious of weight gained on a med. *A med may increase food consumption, but the med doesnt choose what food you mate mate. *Furthermore, if weight gain is an issue, for me that would be a reason to try something different.
> 
> By the way this is not a legitimate answer to your statement that
> 
> ...


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Michael, that sucks and its really unfortunate.
> I have still suffered side effects from things that i have researched. Just because you read about it doesnt mean it will never effect you.
> 
> I was just super vigilante about the side effects that i did have, and when it got to a point where it bothered me i said 'right this isnt the thing for me' and moved off it. So far i have not experienced any long-going side effects, but i understand some people do.


Wait a minute.................why aren't you on any meds? I thought you believed in them and thought that it was good for you? I don't have a problem with that, however when your telling me that meds are good and criticizing me about my viewpoints on meds than all of sudden you go off of them because of the side effects kinds make you look like not so good. So you agree with me now.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> Dude what are you talking about? How the hell can you opt for a healthy lifestyle and watch your weight when the drugs cause your *** to wake up at 3am with severe sugar cravings? .


Sure, go and eat the freezer. That'l help.

Or, you could consider an exercise regieme. As i said, the meds dont force you to eat specific foods.

If weight is problematic, then stop taking them and try something else thats not associated with weight gain, like lexapro.

Depends on the individual if your going to winge about psych meds, then you should be wingeing about every single medication in the pharmacy. because they all come with side effects.

Are you hoping for some kind of miracle drug that combats everything and cures cancer? Ill skip to the chase and inform you that its not going to happen. You need to weigh the pros and cons for YOU, and not by some side effect that someone else with a different neurochemistry to you suffered from.

Alas i have nothing more to debate with you because there's nothing more to say.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Wait a minute.................why aren't you on any meds? I thought you believed in them and thought that it was good for you? I don't have a problem with that, however when your telling me that meds are good and criticizing me about my viewpoints on meds than all of sudden you go off of them because of the side effects kinds make you look like not so good. So you agree with me now.


I never told you that you need medication or criticised you for not taking it. Someone has a little misplaced sense of aggression.

If you actually read my post, you'd know that im taking a migraine medication that cannot be combined with other meds.

Nice try at a cheapshot though. Good to know you're still around for _*something*_.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Sure, go and eat the freezer. That'l help.
> 
> Or, you could consider an exercise regieme. As i said, the meds dont force you to eat specific foods.
> 
> ...


Wow you are like totally totally TOTALLY unaware of the AD side effects. Do you like purposely create a mental block when it comes to the side effects? And lexapro not associated with weight gain? Are you freakin serious? Where do you get your info from?

The AD change your metabolism, they create UNCONTROLLABLE sugar cravings that lead to other health problems. For the majority of the people, the stopping the drugs is not an option bc of severe withdrawal. If you want to keep playing the drug game then go ahead, I was tired of being given this drug or that drug and experiencing the horrific side effects. Why is it so hard to get through your thick skull that there are WELL KNOWN dangerous side effects associated with drug use???????????? My goodness, you want to keep arguing in circles then fine, the bottom like is that this is NOT THE BEST APPROACH and that is final!


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

bruno2006 said:


> I was tired of being given this drug or that drug and experiencing the horrific side effects. !


So someone held you down and shoved a pill in your mouth every day?

Sounds unlikely, but thats unfortunate if thats the case.

*You make it sound like you were condemmed to a life of medications by a court ruling or something*.

Please, get a life. Nothing comes without side effects. Weigh up the pros and cons and make a decision thats right by you.

If you refuse to take control of your situation then you cant blame others for their efforts to help.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> I never told you that you need medication or criticised you for not taking it. Someone has a little misplaced sense of aggression.
> 
> If you actually read my post, you'd know that im taking a migraine medication that cannot be combined with other meds.
> 
> Nice try at a cheapshot though. Good to know you're still around for _*something*_.


I never said any of that all I said was that you were criticizing me about my views. What cheapshot? All I said was what you said that you got off your helpful medications because of the side effects. It makes your look like a hypocrite. These meds are so safe as you claimed why can't you combined them with your migraine meds?

I'm wondering if your migraine problems were caused by the medications that you have been taking.

The DSM is not backed up by science; it's voted in by a group of psychiatrist. The former head of the DSM Steve Francis said that the DSM is bull*** this is coming out of his own mouth; you can look it up.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> So someone held you down and shoved a pill in your mouth every day?
> 
> Sounds unlikely, but thats unfortunate if thats the case.
> 
> ...


Really? That's all you got? Why don't you dispute what I just wrote you instead of constantly trying to put me on the spot and turning the tables? Bet if u looked in your holy DSM you'd probably qualify under a diagnosis and need a drug. Enjoy!


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> I never said any of that all I said was that you were criticizing me about my views. What cheapshot? All I said was what you said that you got off your helpful medications because of the side effects. It makes your look like a hypocrite. These meds are so safe as you claimed why can't you combined them with your migraine meds?
> 
> I'm wondering if your migraine problems were caused by the medications that you have been taking.
> 
> The DSM is not backed up by science; it's voted in by a group of psychiatrist. The former head of the DSM Steve Francis said that the DSM is bull*** this is coming out of his own mouth; you can look it up.


Firstly i had migraines before i ever took medication. So once again your faulty logic does not prevail.

Yet again your particularly pathetic attempt to draw all of the worlds problems back to medication fails miserably yet again.

*Secondly, certain drugs dont mix, just like Ibuprofen and Asprin should not be used together. Its basic pharmacology and something you should aim to understand a little better.*

Just because something cant be mixed, doesnt mean its a bad drug, or is not useful for relieving symptoms.

Yet again, by your logic, Penecillin should be considered dangerous, because when mixed with the anti-cancer drug Methotrexate, can cause death. Does that mean that neither drug should exist in their own right? Such a rediculous argument and you know it.

Re: the DSM
Can you propose a better way to classify all of the known disorders, and come up with a system that allows relatively accurate and informative symtpoms and treatments for them? If so, lets see it, and where it has been published? There needs to be a relatively uniform way to identify and classify disorders to have any hope in being able to treat them.



bruno2006 said:


> Really? That's all you got? Why don't you dispute what I just wrote you instead of constantly trying to put me on the spot and turning the tables? Bet if u looked in your holy DSM you'd probably qualify under a diagnosis and need a drug. Enjoy!


Im only explaining things to you that you seem to lack in understanding.
You started the pot shots mate. Im just dispelling the bs you write.

*Facts are, some people benefit from the use of medication. You seem to not be able to acknowledge this.* Smaller percentages dont. If you are one of the small % that it doesnt help, then stop taking the meds and try something else or other types of therapy.

I really dont have any further explaining to do to either of you about *my* meds, meds for others or any principals underlying their use. If you fail to understand the importance of meds for some people, then so be it.

Too much Trolling from you two even for me:troll


----------



## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

Oh and lastly, @ you *Quietboy99*;

I find it absolutely *disgusting* that even when presented by success stories, such as the one posted by Cletis on Sertraline, you keep digging at him and his evidence for improvement and try to convince him that he's just going to suffer in the end.

Who are you to be such a negative force of misery in the face of someone who is accomplishing things and managing their SAD?

It really says alot about your character.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Oh and lastly, @ you *Quietboy99*;
> 
> I find it absolutely *disgusting* that even when presented by success stories, such as the one posted by Cletis on Sertraline, you keep digging at him and his evidence for improvement and try to convince him that he's just going to suffer in the end.
> 
> ...


If you were reading my post than you would have read that I acknowledged his success story. I wanted to bring out some questions about his treatment that maybe he'd want to think about; by the way let him decide if it's "disgusting" not you. Let others speak for themselves.

You've just lost all your creditability when you got off your meds because of the side effects and yet you preach you others that meds are safe = hypocrite. If you read through your own post you make absolutely no sense and you keep jumping back and forth.

I'm done speaking with you for now at least until you get your thoughts together because you keep arguing in circles.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> You've just lost all your creditability when you got off your meds because of the side effects and yet you preach you others that meds are safe = hypocrite. If you read through your own post you make absolutely no sense and you keep jumping back and forth.
> 
> I'm done speaking with you for now at least until you get your thoughts together because you keep arguing in circles.


There are no contradictions. Im a realist and i know what im getting myself into when deciding whether or not to take a drug.

Not blindly wondering in and taking something, then wingeing about how bad and evil the side effects are. Regardless, you promote scientology over science. How funny.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Firstly i had migraines before i ever took medication. So once again your faulty logic does not prevail.
> 
> Yet again your particularly pathetic attempt to draw all of the worlds problems back to medication fails miserably yet again.
> 
> ...


You have dispelled nothing bc there is nothing to dispel. I offer my viewpoints and research I have done as a way for others to think about and reconsider the marginally effective, unsafe drug approach. For example, you got your panties all twisted up when I stated that there are side effects that can be developing without one being totally aware. You cried and told me to give an example and I did: diabetes. Further, you, again, cried and got your panties all twisted up when I said that certain substances like herbs can relieve ones anxiety that do not directly affect neurotransmitters. I again provided you with and example and you steadily moved on and continued to assault me because you are unable to effectively prove that your wonderful antidepressants are the best approach and that psychiatry in general not a flawed science. Attack the argument, not the person.

I have already discussed with you many times the ineffectiveness of the conventional approach to treating mental health and the dangers of this one size fits all approach. Further, you can go read the other thread where I provided a full list of resources and backed up all my claims and explained everything. If you need the link, let me know. No more going in circle kangaroo man. I came to this point of view for a variety of reasons including my own experience and research, and I am not alone in this as you vary well know.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Firstly i had migraines before i ever took medication. So once again your faulty logic does not prevail.
> 
> Yet again your particularly pathetic attempt to draw all of the worlds problems back to medication fails miserably yet again.
> 
> ...


Yea I definitely have an alternative to your highly subjective unscientific DSM: get rid of that damned thing and start searching for underlying causes! Moreover its well known that the pharmaceutical industry has its name written all over this thing.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> There are no contradictions. Im a realist and i know what im getting myself into when deciding whether or not to take a drug.
> 
> Not blindly wondering in and taking something, then wingeing about how bad and evil the side effects are. Regardless, you promote scientology over science. How funny.


Your a realist but your also a hypocrite; if you don't know what that means than look it up. I'm not promoting anything but the truth. Since your talking about science; where is the science that backs up psychiatry? Where is the chemical imbalance test, medical test, blood test, etc? Waiting for answer and................nothing but silence or excuses. Come back when your ready.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Your a realist but your also a hypocrite; if you don't know what that means than look it up. I'm not promoting anything but the truth. Since your talking about science; where is the science that backs up psychiatry? Where is the chemical imbalance test, medical test, blood test, etc? Waiting for answer and................nothing but silence or excuses. Come back when your ready.


 Heres a link for you to look at:

http://mentalhealth.about.com/library/sci/0602/blqeeg602.htm\

It starts:

*Brain Scan Predicts Effectiveness of Antidepressants Weeks Before Patients Improve*

A new UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute study shows for the first time that measurable changes in the front of the brain can predict the effectiveness of an antidepressant within days of treatment - weeks before a patient begins to feel better.

Using quantitative EEG, a non-invasive computerized measurement of brain wave patterns, the researchers discovered that specific changes in brain wave activity precede clinical changes brought on by medication. The new findings, published in the July edition of the peer-reviewed journal Neuropsychopharmacology, could lead to treatment programs that help depression patients feel better faster by cutting evaluation periods from weeks to days. The findings also could aid in the development of new medications.

- Here's a link that goes much more in depth about the science behind neuropsychopharmacology:

http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000004/Default.htm

- And finally even more research papers on the legitamacy of neuroscience related to psychopharmacology:

http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000088/Default.htm

Sorry, none of this is on You-Tube. You have to read it.

Cheers!!!


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

metamorphosis said:


> Heres a link for you to look at:
> 
> http://mentalhealth.about.com/library/sci/0602/blqeeg602.htm\
> 
> ...


Using a QEEG is a great tool and I recently did a QEEG. this test has nothing to do with neurochemistry, per se,it has to do with the electrical waves in your brain. Obviously, these waves can be a result of chemistry, but still. Once you take the QEEG, they compare your results to ones in a database and can determine which parts are not functioning properly. Once this is determined, you can change those dysfunctional parts using neurofeedback, not harmful drugs.

There is no doubt that pharmacology plays a role in the overall treatment process of mental health conditions, but it needs a whole lot of work. The problems with the drug approach are vast in numbers and it has let many people down. Obviously, this field has some good scientific based treatments, but, again, it falls short. The chemicals they use in many of the drugs cause numerous side effects that are intolerable to many people and have also destroyed people's lives. There is a conflict of interest when it comes to psychiatry and the pharmaceutical industry and so that is why one must take a grain of salt when getting his info from these people. The AD can actually change the brain waves, but its just not the best way in my opinion.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

metamorphosis said:


> Heres a link for you to look at:
> 
> http://mentalhealth.about.com/library/sci/0602/blqeeg602.htm\
> 
> ...


I do support brain-wave therapy as one of the alternatives to medications. I still don't understand why your telling me all of this and why you responded to my post. Your "findings" have nothing to do with science in fact the NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) says that there is no science, blood test, medical test, etc of any kind to diagnose these disorders. No pet can, brain scan, x-ray, etc of any sort can diagnosis these "disorders". Big pharma themselves acknowledge this in their advertisements "we don't know the origins that causes depression".


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

If you read the other links they are using much more advanced methods other than just EEG. There are great strides being made in neuropsychophrmacology. There is always room for improvement in medicine. Lets name a few: M.S., cancer, Alzheimers, Parkinsons, including the great strides made in the treatment of H.I.V. Compared to when the disease was first discovered. To say there is no scientific backup to this area of medicine is simply wrong.Yes, there has been egregious errors made with patients and the medications given to them by psychiatrists. But that goes across the whole board of medicine. There are bad doctors in every field and there are pharma. companies trying to sell their product in all areas of medicine

The fact is that yes, optimally no medication is the best answer. But in many cases the issues are so severe that medicine has to be used either for a short period of time, for a year or more and in some cases for life. I have a friend who has schitzo effective disorder. Before he was treated with medications: he wasn't going to make it to 20. He was either going to kill himself or someone else. He worshiped a tree that had the "purple people" in it. He believed the aliens were amongst us and that he had a chip implanted in his body. He was extremely paranoid and was a danger to himself and others. They got him on some medicine and he's now 40 and happy. He's an artist making a living selling his artwork. It wouldn't have been possible if he wasn't treated.

And yes they modified his diet, used supplementation, psychotherapy and many other methods of healing. Trust me, I'm a firm believer in diet, exercise, psychotherapy etc as the first line of treatment. But that isn't always the answer. Than you have to a 2nd or 3rd line of treatment. and that includes medication.

Bottom line is that you should not debunk psyshopharmacology as quackery and question everyone's reason for being on medications. Sometimes it is what is needed. That is why doctors are supposed to follow the Hippocratic Oath!!!


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

QuietBoy99 said:


> I do support brain-wave therapy as one of the alternatives to medications. I still don't understand why your telling me all of this and why you responded to my post. Your "findings" have nothing to do with science in fact the NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) says that there is no science, blood test, medical test, etc of any kind to diagnose these disorders. No pet can, brain scan, x-ray, etc of any sort can diagnosis these "disorders". Big pharma themselves acknowledge this in their advertisements "we don't know the origins that causes depression".


BTW. can you please give me the link stating that the National Institute Of Mental Health has stated these claims that there is no science, whatsoever, behind neuropsychpharmacology. I would hope this is a recent statement and I would like to see you backup your claim of what that institution said!!!


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## michael10364 (Feb 4, 2011)

i just hate how i cant function because of what meds have done to me, and so far i have been pushed aside and left behind psychiatrists and the drug companies. i've had 2 psychiatrists tell me outright that they dont believe me when i told them what the meds they prescribe have done tome. the statute of limitations is over, but a few weeks ago i called the makers of mirapex to see if they could offer me and knowledge and some help, and the lady on the phone just said 'we dont help people like that"

as i have said before, i am not the only one that has had an experience like this with psychiatric meds and i am not the only one that has been ignored when they bring an experience up to their psychiatrist. so much for the hippocratic oath...


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Good points here is the problem................*

You've made some good points, however here is the flaw in your arguments. You cannot repeat cannot compare "mental disorders" with actual diseases that are measurable under a microscope, medical test, etc such as you mentioned cancer, hiv/aids, etc. A behavior cannot be a disease; these are not diseases. It is not the same thing you cannot prove it period ok unless you have something than you would be the first person ever on this planet earth to have proof. It's not that much to ask for to prove it. Big pharma and psychiatry is seriously flawed.

Big pharma and psychiatrist want you to be on medications for life because that means profits in their pockets; they don't care about you. There maybe a very small percentage that may possible benefit from meds such as your friend but that is a very small percentage. I still believe that alternatives are the best bet. Meds are being over-prescribed and people are hurting and dying and for what? profits for big pharma and psychiatrist. It's pseudo-science and you believe in that? Certainly not me.

Diet and exercise never fails in fact according to a Duke University Study one of the most prestigious universities in the world did a study on how effective was diet and exercise was against antidepressants such as paxil and the results were shocking; they found out that diet and exercise was just as effective if not more than paxil.

http://today.duke.edu/2000/09/exercise922.html

I'm simply presenting facts on big pharma and psychiatry; it's up to you if you want to believe in the facts or not. If you want to be on meds than go ahead I'm not stopping anybody. Hippocratic Oath is "First do no harm" and doctors and psychiatrist have broken that. *
*


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

I stated in my post, that there are bad doctors in every field of medicine. And with many victims of their malpractice. I am sorry about your situation and I would be pissed about it too.

I am still waiting for QuietBoy's link confirming the statements he made about the NIMH. If your going to make a claim about what an institution said; You had better back it up with the proof. I want the link to their supposed statements that there is no science, whatsoever, behind psychopharmacology.

I'm waiting!!!


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

metamorphosis said:


> BTW. can you please give me the link stating that the National Institute Of Mental Health has stated these claims that there is no science, whatsoever, behind neuropsychpharmacology. I would hope this is a recent statement and I would like to see you backup your claim of what that institution said!!!


You can look it up yourself; if those claims are false than what medical test, blood test, scientific test, chemical imbalance test, etc are available today for people to take; please give me the phone number of the location that has the these test so I can go take them today for proof.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

Like I said you can look it up yourself; facts are facts. You haven't provided me with scientific proof.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

So you cannot back up the claims you made about what the NIMH said.
Listen you are the one who stated what this institution said. So you should have some link to back you up. You cannot go around making claims about what institutions state as fact, when you don't have a source. This is basically the backbone of your argument. You said it. Don't ask me to fish around for a claim that you said the NIMH said. If you cant supply a credible source for your statement that the NIMH has said there is no science, whatsoever, behind psychopharmacology than your credibility is shot.

You shouldn't go around paraphrasing what an institution states without a source. That's a fundamental mistake. Now back up, with a link, what you claim they said!!!


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

michael10364 said:


> i just hate how i cant function because of what meds have done to me, and so far i have been pushed aside and left behind psychiatrists and the drug companies. i've had 2 psychiatrists tell me outright that they dont believe me when i told them what the meds they prescribe have done tome. the statute of limitations is over, but a few weeks ago i called the makers of mirapex to see if they could offer me and knowledge and some help, and the lady on the phone just said 'we dont help people like that"
> 
> as i have said before, i am not the only one that has had an experience like this with psychiatric meds and i am not the only one that has been ignored when they bring an experience up to their psychiatrist. so much for the hippocratic oath...


I completely understand michael; psychiatrist have done the samething to me and I refuse to be a victim that why I told my psychiatrist to f*** off walked out and never came back. It was the best thing I ever did.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

First off I don't have to do anything; you can do it yourself on their website. What I say are facts and if you don't want to believe them than that is your choice. You have not provided me with any scientific proof of anything so you need to back up your claims. I'm done responding to you until you provide me with hard scientific proof until than bye bye.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Dude you need to back up your "facts" with studies. And if your going to state what an institution said than you need to have a link, a source, for what you are saying.
Otherwise your just going around bull ****ting and making stupid statements that you can't back up with facts. Especially going so far as to state that the NIMH says there is no science behind PPC. You are the one who claims this is that institutions belief. It is also the fundamental crux of your arguments. Stating that even this mental health institution agrees with what you have been espousing.
Now your just dancing around the fact that you have no link to your foolish statements. Your just bull****ting like a little boy. Putting up a front you cant back up.

Now I'm not going to waste anymore time on you until you can support your claim of what the NIMH supposedly said. It's the whole backbone of your argument you cork!!!


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I don't believe SSRI's cause brain damage, not usually. They cure brain defects.


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## F1X3R (Jul 20, 2009)

I


> don't believe SSRI's cause brain damage, not usually. They cure brain defects.
> __________________


I don't know if SSRI's can cause brain damage, but they are usually prescribed to people without brain defects. The problem with the way pills that alter brain chemistry are used is that they treat the symptoms of having incorrect beliefs. Subconscious beliefs.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

I never said what you said; I said there are no medical test, blood test, chemical imbalance test, etc to diagnose these disorders. Look it up on their site. You have no scientific claims to back up what you say so don't speak until you do. Got it? Good.


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## michael10364 (Feb 4, 2011)

SSRI's dont cure brain defects. at least not normally. if that were true then drinking alcohol would cure brain defects. alcohol is great for social anxiety, but that doesnt mean it fixed something that was wrong with the brain. if SSRI's cured a defect in the brain, there wouldnt be side effects like sexual dysfunction. and if a 20 year old takiing antidepressant and has sexual dysfunction, then there is definitely something not ticking right in his brain because of the antidepressant. alcohol also has side effects, the main one is dizzieness.
dizzieness can be a side effect of antidepressants too.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Your a realist but your also a hypocrite; if you don't know what that means than look it up. I'm not promoting anything but the truth. Since your talking about science; where is the science that backs up psychiatry? Where is the chemical imbalance test, medical test, blood test, etc? Waiting for answer and................nothing but silence or excuses. Come back when your ready.


I have nothing more to say to either of you. Im not even commenting for your benefit. Its for the benefit of others and so they dont instead waste their time with cults and scientology like you plug. What a joke.

You just keep up with the same rehearsed and unsubstantiated remarks and frankly its getting a little old.

If anything you are the one avoiding the information i present, and countlessly sidestepping the issues i raise. Clearly you weren't part of the debating team as a kid


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> I have nothing more to say to either of you. Im not even commenting for your benefit. Its for the benefit of others and so they dont instead waste their time with cults and scientology like you plug. What a joke.
> 
> You just keep up with the same rehearsed and unsubstantiated remarks and frankly its getting a little old.
> 
> If anything you are the one avoiding the information i present, and countlessly sidestepping the issues i raise. Clearly you weren't part of the debating team as a kid


Your a huge waste of time; you have avoided all of my facts that I presented which means you agree with them.

You have no science to back up your claims; you just avoided my questions again. For your information I was the debate champion at my high school so I can clearly tell you aren't.


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## cellophanegirl (Sep 21, 2009)

Interesting article:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/07/06/head_fake/?page=1

published in 2008, wish there was a more recent followup...


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> For your information I was the debate champion at my high school so I can clearly tell you aren't.


Bahaahahahhahahahah! Quality stuff. You know its not april 1st right?

Anyway, i save a footnote of the spin you repeat each time. In summary:

'Treat schizophrenia with exercise, control panic attacks with diet and manage depression with books from cults like scientology.'

Great stuff, if only it worked, or had some type of scientific substance to back it up.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Your a huge waste of time; you have avoided all of my facts that I presented which means you agree with them.
> 
> You have no science to back up your claims; you just avoided my questions again. For your information I was the debate champion at my high school so I can clearly tell you aren't.


lol

Im a champion at many things, things i cant give away, ya know what i mean?


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Bahaahahahhahahahah! Quality stuff. You know its not april 1st right?
> 
> Anyway, i save a footnote of the spin you repeat each time. In summary:
> 
> ...


You can't back up what you say and so you start laughing; good move. I've already presented my facts.

You absolutely make no sense what so ever so it probably had something to do with the meds that you were taking.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> lol
> 
> Im a champion at many things, things i cant give away, ya know what i mean?


No I don't know what you mean.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

There's no point in proving you anything as long you dont see the proof as proof, and only see as proof what you want to see as proof.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

Obviously your lost.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I beleive they can cause braindamage themself, however not to the degree your thinking off, however its pointless to discuss this way.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

These meds do cause brain damage most of them is very subtle.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

QuietBoy99 said:


> These meds do cause brain damage most of them is very subtle.


However i dont denie that they work for a lot of people and help many of depression, even tough the number they put in remission is small, and even tough they also are neurotrophic. I take one myself namely lexapro.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> However i dont denie that they work for a lot of people and help many of depression, even tough the number they put in remission is small, and even tough they also are neurotrophic. I take one myself namely lexapro.


It may seem like it's working in the short-term but the side effects and damage will catch up to you in the long-term.


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## michael10364 (Feb 4, 2011)

what are all of you doing? arguing until the other person starts crying so that you can say you won?


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

michael10364 said:


> what are all of you doing? arguing until the other person starts crying so that you can say you won?


If that is the criteria to win, then quietboy lost this debate long ago rofl


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

Sure hypocrite, whatever you say.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Quietboy, you are a rude person, you know that?

I don't have to post links...but you know that scientists created those pills, you know? It wasn't just farted out of a unicorn!

I have nothing more to say to you. You are delusional.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

Really? and was sense of purpose not being rude? It sounds to me you have been brain washed. What is your point? Scientist created these pills doesn't mean they are safe; they were hired by big pharma who instructs and controls what they do and their pay checks. Good bye now.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Really? and was sense of purpose not being rude? It sounds to me you have been brain washed. What is your point? Scientist created these pills doesn't mean they are safe; they were hired by big pharma who instructs and controls what they do and their pay checks. Good bye now.


I wasn't rude.

*You were.*

Either way, the ban hammer will fall sometime, and you'll be gone. Goodbye now. :roll


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

WintersTale said:


> I wasn't rude.
> 
> *You were.*
> 
> Either way, the ban hammer will fall sometime, and you'll be gone. Goodbye now. :roll


I've been assertive and nice to everyone; your just being very destructive. Goodbye and take care.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

QuietBoy99 said:


> I've been assertive and nice to everyone; your just being very destructive. Goodbye and take care.


 This should be applied to your weak ***. Heres a really big challenge for your intelligence (kindergarden). Post a link that isn't in your normal U-Tube signature. Like something people can read ( what a concept) That backs up all of your claims. And don't do your little immature reversal of " You need to look up and read the **** I actually espouse" little boy. Though with your grammer, I fear it might be hard for a boy with your I.Q. to read. Much less post links that aren't 3 minute You-Tube snippets.
Don't have a hemorrhage over this post. It is okay to express your anger in a safe environment. We all understand!!!

Kids need little videos!!!


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

Quietboy i think the crowd as spoken. I suppose we are all just a bunch of brainwashed sheep to you. Perhaps you'll take your cult elsewhere, or at least stop slagging on people who use meds to aid them in their treatment process.

*Lastly, dont try and convince people who have benefited from meds that they will die a horrid and nasty side effect related death. *

*Its just pure crap, and you have not posted 1 source to back you up. Pathetic*


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

Well I already presented my facts so I'll leave it at that. I'm not stopping anybody from taking anything if you feel you need it than take it. It's obvious you have too much time on your hands so have a good day.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Quietguy, an argument for your cause.

http://www.drugawareness.org/ssri-facts/scientific-studies/kauffman-ssri-study

You should really google stuff before you spout nonsense, though.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Well I already presented my facts so I'll leave it at that. I'm not stopping anybody from taking anything if you feel you need it than take it. It's obvious you have too much time on your hands so have a good day.


 Cheers mate!!! Have a good day!!!


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

I always do my research before I present anything just to let you know. The information I present is not non-sense by any means; it's personal experience, others experiences along with extensive research.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> I always do my research before I present anything just to let you know. The information I present is not non-sense by any means; it's personal experience, others experiences along with extensive research.


Thats ironic, *because you see the DSM... is a collection of many clinical patients experience complied into a book. This is to allow uniform diagnosis and manage a treatment plan for these individuals.*

Do you still think the DSM is full of SH.T?


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## michael10364 (Feb 4, 2011)

if i would of had someone like quietboy around to tell me how bad antidepressants can be,and if i would have listened to him instead of shrugging him off, i wouldnt be in the situation i'm in right now.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

I am genuinely glad that someone has helped you out on this forum. That is what these forums are all about.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

michael10364 said:


> if i would of had someone like quietboy around to tell me how bad antidepressants can be,and if i would have listened to him instead of shrugging him off, i wouldnt be in the situation i'm in right now.


Thank you Michael for your support. I'm not here to attack anyone I just wanted to share my experiences.

If someone feels they really need the medication than they should take it. For me it was a mistake and I'm just doing my best to get on with my life.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Thank you Michael for your support. I'm not here to attack anyone I just wanted to share my experiences.
> 
> If someone feels they really need the medication than they should take it. For me it was a mistake and I'm just doing my best to get on with my life.


Yes, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore all the people that have benefited from it, and also call people names for having benefited from it.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

WintersTale said:


> Yes, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore all the people that have benefited from it, and also call people names for having benefited from it.


I don't know if you've been reading all the post but I was the one who was being called names.

I'm not ignoring anyone as you see I've acknowledge their success with meds. I just don't agree with medications as a way to treat these "disorders" .


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

metamorphosis said:


> This should be applied to your weak ***. Heres a really big challenge for your intelligence (kindergarden). Post a link that isn't in your normal U-Tube signature. Like something people can read ( what a concept) That backs up all of your claims. And don't do your little immature reversal of " You need to look up and read the **** I actually espouse" little boy. Though with your grammer, I fear it might be hard for a boy with your I.Q. to read. Much less post links that aren't 3 minute You-Tube snippets.
> Don't have a hemorrhage over this post. It is okay to express your anger in a safe environment. We all understand!!!
> 
> Kids need little videos!!!


Please be more mature about this matter. Don't attack me attack the facts. Videos are a good way to engage and inform users; I never said they were sources. Your grammar is hard to follow too and by the way you misspelled "grammar". :yes



A Sense of Purpose said:


> Thats ironic, *because you see the DSM... is a collection of many clinical patients experience complied into a book. This is to allow uniform diagnosis and manage a treatment plan for these individuals.*
> 
> Do you still think the DSM is full of SH.T?


Is it backed up by science?


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> I always do my research before I present anything just to let you know. The information I present is not non-sense by any means; it's personal experience, others experiences along with extensive research.


This is precisely what the DSM does in a clinical setting. Observations of individuals anecdotal evidence which was formed into syndroms after symptom similarities were discovered.



QuietBoy99 said:


> Is it backed up by science?


You said your arguements are backed up from anecdotal evidence and personal experience. Where is *YOUR *evidence, if the form that the DSM uses is so appauling? Cos if you ask me you are splitting hairs here. *If anything, your's lacks specificity and detail in comparison to the DSM. Here's why*

From what i can tell, you derive your decisions from the same process as the individuals who formed the DSM did, however;
*without the lack of a M.D., clinical experience from each of the leading psychiatrists in their respective fields and years of clinical experience in observing the most effective and appropriate treatment methods for these patients.*

Im not saying you dont have the right to express the side effects you experienced, but the mere methodology you claim to be so flawed (the dsm) is the same methodology you use, only you do not do it justice.

The science comes from clinical observation over decades, discussions between psychs about symptom clusters, and how best to universally categorise issues that lie along a continuum.

The DSM is not perfect, but its the best thing we currently have at doing what it does as effectively allowing for reliability and validity.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> This is precisely what the DSM does in a clinical setting. Observations of individuals anecdotal evidence which was formed into syndroms after symptom similarities were discovered.
> 
> You said your arguements are backed up from anecdotal evidence and personal experience. Where is *YOUR *evidence, if the form that the DSM uses is so appauling? Cos if you ask me you are splitting hairs here. *If anything, your's lacks specificity and detail in comparison to the DSM. Here's why*
> 
> ...


Do you know who Allen Frances is? Let me remind you he was the former Head of the DSM and he has some shocking things to say about the DSM.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/12/ff_dsmv/all/1

He claimed that it was "Bull***". There are also many other articles on him against the DSM just google it. Obviously your stuck in your ways and I'm done with this topic.

What you just described is not science so your just a lost cause and using common sense and logic will not work with you. The DSM is used to diagnose for making huge profits for insurance companies and doctors so where else are they to go on? But an invented book with no science to back it up. Good-bye now.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Do you know who Allen Frances is? Let me remind you he was the former Head of the DSM and he has some shocking things to say about the DSM.
> 
> http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/12/ff_dsmv/all/1
> 
> ...


Pure typical and ignorant response. *Completely sidestepped the questions i directed at you. Avoidance of any valid answer. Not even 1.*

You are not worth the time or effort.


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## QuietBoy99 (Sep 7, 2010)

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Pure typical and ignorant response. *Completely sidestepped the questions i directed at you. Avoidance of any valid answer. Not even 1.*
> 
> You are not worth the time or effort.


Your just a waste of time.


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## A Sense of Purpose (May 8, 2011)

QuietBoy99 said:


> Your just a waste of time.


More avoidance and refusal to address the things i directed at you. Cant even bring yourself to attempt an answer

Clearly a troll, malingerer and propaganda spreading extremist


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

*Thread lock warning* Please keep to the topic guys.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

metamorphosis said:


> If you read the other links they are using much more advanced methods other than just EEG. There are great strides being made in neuropsychophrmacology. There is always room for improvement in medicine. Lets name a few: M.S., cancer, Alzheimers, Parkinsons, including the great strides made in the treatment of H.I.V. Compared to when the disease was first discovered. To say there is no scientific backup to this area of medicine is simply wrong.Yes, there has been egregious errors made with patients and the medications given to them by psychiatrists. But that goes across the whole board of medicine. There are bad doctors in every field and there are pharma. companies trying to sell their product in all areas of medicine
> 
> The fact is that yes, optimally no medication is the best answer. But in many cases the issues are so severe that medicine has to be used either for a short period of time, for a year or more and in some cases for life. I have a friend who has schitzo effective disorder. Before he was treated with medications: he wasn't going to make it to 20. He was either going to kill himself or someone else. He worshiped a tree that had the "purple people" in it. He believed the aliens were amongst us and that he had a chip implanted in his body. He was extremely paranoid and was a danger to himself and others. They got him on some medicine and he's now 40 and happy. He's an artist making a living selling his artwork. It wouldn't have been possible if he wasn't treated.
> 
> ...


I disagree with you when you say "great strides" in neuropharmacology. There have been some advances and some promising treatments, yet as time goes by people realize that they are being harmed by the drugs and that there are other ways to deal with your problems besides chemically suppressing your symptoms (even this sometimes does not work) with potentially dangerous drugs that in themselves are based on flawed science and big pharma.

Every attempt should be made to find underlying problems biochemically/biologically and also psychologically before resorting to drugs.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Dude agree, the less medication the better. Everyone's issues are different and frankly, you bore me!
Peace!


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

bruno2006 said:


> I disagree with you when you say "great strides" in neuropharmacology. There have been some advances and some promising treatments, yet as time goes by people realize that they are being harmed by the drugs and that there are other ways to deal with your problems besides chemically suppressing your symptoms (even this sometimes does not work) with potentially dangerous drugs that in themselves are based on flawed science and big pharma.
> 
> Every attempt should be made to find underlying problems biochemically/biologically and also psychologically before resorting to drugs.


 Hey, there's a really cool forum on here about diet, supplements, and exercise. I think you should check it!!!


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

metamorphosis said:


> Hey, there's a really cool forum on here about diet, supplements, and exercise. I think you should check it!!!


Thank you I will. I have already run in and out of it before but have not been there in a while. I have a lot of experience with various types of treatments including allopathic drugs, herbs, nutrients, and recently something called transcranial electrical stimulation. I can attest to the facts that many therapies do work that do not include drugs, even though drugs should be used in severe cases.

I enjoy coming here and reading about what helps people, I just feel as though most people don't realize that drug therapy is not as safe or effective as the pharmaceutical companies lead us to believe. Allopathic medicine was never meant to cure anything and so I only support the use of these potentially harmful drugs when absolutely necessary. What do you think?


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Let me choose my words carefully. Yes, people should always explore more natural therapies included. We're talking nutrition, exercise, supplements (as needed) , and a whole lifestyle change. There are other factors that deserve consideration. A few being the persons age: Their other co-morbid issues (bi-polar,add,adhd) and borderline personality disorder. Which is really considered a character flaw in my governments law. Anyway my point being is that we are not leading cows to the slaughter.

Let me ask you something. If someone went through surgery and they ask what pain they are in. That is a subjective reasoning to give people meds at a certain strength. Again, after surgery, its subjective and you lose. They will listen to their patient!!!

Peace!!


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## Knowbody (Jul 5, 2011)

brain damage is a good thing


species of low intelligence usually don't suffer from depression and have high levels of anxiety


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Brilliant, pointless quote. How does that help the meaning and point of this thread? Read it!!!!


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

I hope there isn't brain damage from SSRIs. :afr


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## rhanch (Jun 21, 2009)

I got brain damage just from reading this thread.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahh!!!!!!!!


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

metamorphosis said:


> Let me choose my words carefully. Yes, people should always explore more natural therapies included. We're talking nutrition, exercise, supplements (as needed) , and a whole lifestyle change. There are other factors that deserve consideration. A few being the persons age: Their other co-morbid issues (bi-polar,add,adhd) and borderline personality disorder. Which is really considered a character flaw in my governments law. Anyway my point being is that we are not leading cows to the slaughter.
> 
> Let me ask you something. If someone went through surgery and they ask what pain they are in. That is a subjective reasoning to give people meds at a certain strength. Again, after surgery, its subjective and you lose. They will listen to their patient!!!
> 
> Peace!!


For sure diet and exercise and general life style changes can make a difference, however this is often not enough and that is why I say all avenues must be explored by doing a functional work-up and assessing all the organs and nutrient levels. I am a firm believer in orthomolecular medicine, functional medicine, integrative medicine, and the like. My perspective was formed over the past few years when the side effects became to great and I did things that I would not usually do because of the drugs. So, I researched, I asked, I discovered many disturbing things about allopathic medicine and pyschiatric drugs. The bottom line is that its a fact that these drugs used like candy can, and in many cases do, cause damage, make the your problems worse in the long run, are not totally scientifically based, and I can keep going on and on.

So many people want to argue and fight about this topic and I don't understand why; the facts are there and we know that there can be a number of reasons why one suffers from anxiety. When you only throw drugs at the problem instead of looking for underlying problems then you can make the problem worse. Furthermore, many people have indeed been lead to the slaughter house by these drugs and many more have been permanently damaged. When is enough enough? Yes, they have helped people but these drugs are not fully understood, have been proven to be less effective than a placebo, and all in all are just overused.

As far as your surgery question, well its obvious that the patient will have pain because he recently got his boddy sliced into. I am not sure how this relates to the use of pyschiatric drugs because our mental health issues to indeed have underlying conditions that it many cases can be found.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Simply because there is subjectivity. If you claim that neuropharmacology has no science behind it. Than how can a subjective analysis of a persons pain and what level of medication after surgery be worthy???


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> I hope there isn't brain damage from SSRIs. :afr


Just research and come to your own conclusion.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

bruno2006 said:


> Just research and come to your own conclusion.


 Metamorphosis=1

Bruno=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

metamorphosis said:


> Simply because there is subjectivity. If you claim that neuropharmacology has no science behind it. Than how can a subjective analysis of a persons pain and what level of medication after surgery be worthy???


No one ever said anything about there not being any science behind neuropsychopharmacology, on the contrary there is much science with many great, moral, honest scientists; however, one of the problems is that the science behind antidepressant drugs is flawed. Much more needs to be researched and explored into how exactly the drugs produce their affects, this is largely unknown and the whole chemical imbalance thing was a huge marketing campaign by the pharmaceutical industry and the public largely bought into that. Moreover, many of the studies supporting the drugs are funded by the the pharmaceutical industry and so there is an obvious conflict of interest.

For some, the drugs do work, but it is not entirely known how they work and, likewise, the affects on our health. Many studies have shown that these drugs can cause a host of problems. Furthermore, there is much more to anxiety or any mental health condition than just neurotransmitters. I read of a study that showed people with low neurotransmitters (cant remember which ones) were happy and healthy, and some people with high neurotransmitters were sad and depressed. It seems that they are playing with fire when it comes to manipulating the brain chemistry of people and this is why there have been so many adverse reactions along with death and permanent damage. The one size-fits all approach does not work and the drugs should be used as a last resort.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

bruno2006 said:


> No one ever said anything about there not being any science behind neuropsychopharmacology, on the contrary there is much science with many great, moral, honest scientists; however, one of the problems is that the science behind antidepressant drugs is flawed. Much more needs to be researched and explored into how exactly the drugs produce their affects, this is largely unknown and the whole chemical imbalance thing was a huge marketing campaign by the pharmaceutical industry and the public largely bought into that. Moreover, many of the studies supporting the drugs are funded by the the pharmaceutical industry and so there is an obvious conflict of interest.
> 
> For some, the drugs do work, but it is not entirely known how they work and, likewise, the affects on our health. Many studies have shown that these drugs can cause a host of problems. Furthermore, there is much more to anxiety or any mental health condition than just neurotransmitters. I read of a study that showed people with low neurotransmitters (cant remember which ones) were happy and healthy, and some people with high neurotransmitters were sad and depressed. It seems that they are playing with fire when it comes to manipulating the brain chemistry of people and this is why there have been so many adverse reactions along with death and permanent damage. The one size-fits all approach does not work and the drugs should be used as a last resort.


 Amen brother, So short sided brother. Accept others perils are not your own. And that some need more guidance than your little narrow minded beliefs. That leave as , Martin Luther King,said "I have a dream"!!!!!


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Burp! So sorry!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

metamorphosis said:


> Burp! So sorry!


How rude


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

metamorphosis said:


> Amen brother, So short sided brother. Accept others perils are not your own. And that some need more guidance than your little narrow minded beliefs. That leave as , Martin Luther King,said "I have a dream"!!!!!


good intelligent response my friend. You surely got me there. And please, dont talk about narrow minded beliefs because everything i have laid forward you come back with some little ridiculous comment that is of little meaning.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bruno2006 said:


> I disagree with you when you say "great strides" in neuropharmacology. There have been some advances and some promising treatments, yet as time goes by people realize that they are being harmed by the drugs and that there are other ways to deal with your problems besides chemically suppressing your symptoms (even this sometimes does not work) with potentially dangerous drugs that in themselves are based on flawed science and big pharma.
> 
> Every attempt should be made to find underlying problems biochemically/biologically and also psychologically before resorting to drugs.


Drugs can fix the neurological cause behind social anxiety, some ppl have enough with therapy and exposure but for many meds are the key, wich doesnt mean they wont need to expose themself too.

Big pharma is all money business tough and hardly come up with novel ****, there are very effective treatments tough like amphetamine with memantine, a combination ive been promoting for a long time, with good reason.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

I am on Paxil and I use it as TRAINING WHEELS to help me.
I have been through numerous trials this year where I should have increased my meds - I haven't since January. One of these days, I night just decrease it if I feel strong enough. Until then, my thinking is not retarded. I am still a rational thinking person, and my millenniummanliness is too much for some to handle. BOOYAH! :wink


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## Andrew1980 (Feb 28, 2009)

millenniumman75 said:


> One of these days, I night just decrease it if I feel strong enough.


And then relapse when you find out that SA is a medical condition.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Andrew1980 said:


> And then relapse when you find out that SA is a medical condition.


 Not when I have been learning CBT.
This is not a debilitating condition if we let it - it is a chain of bad thinking that needs to be undone.


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## Andrew1980 (Feb 28, 2009)

millenniumman75 said:


> Not when I have been learning CBT.
> This is not a debilitating condition if we let it - it is a chain of bad thinking that needs to be undone.


Sounds like your psychologist speaking.


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## jangle1 (Jan 11, 2011)

There is a role for CBT in treating social anxiety disorder. It relies on the brain's plasticity and ability to learn new behaviors in social situations. 

However, social anxiety is a medical condition, there is definitely some type of neurotransmitter issue going on. 

I would say I've been improved from CBT to a point where I'm almost functional, but I'm nowhere near where I need to be to enjoy life. Of course I'm just one person, and I know perhaps if other conditions in my life were better, CBT probably would have been more successful for me.


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## Fromheretoeternity (Apr 3, 2011)

My mum has been taking prozac for years and she hasn't had any problems.


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## michael10364 (Feb 4, 2011)

i would just like to know, what is a person to do when these meds do damage your brain. because it does happen. a person sees all the ads for these "safe and effective antidepressants"
and gives in to tryiing one and ends up with his brain ruined. in a 10 times worse state than before the med. is that person just sh*t out of luck? this is just not right!


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## michael10364 (Feb 4, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> Drugs can fix the neurological cause behind social anxiety, some ppl have enough with therapy and exposure but for many meds are the key, wich doesnt mean they wont need to expose themself too.
> 
> Big pharma is all money business tough and hardly come up with novel ****, there are very effective treatments tough like amphetamine with memantine, a combination ive been promoting for a long time, with good reason.


drugs dont normally fix anything about the brain, they just cover up symptoms. i believe if you go by your logic then you could say alcohol can fix neurological problems behind social anxiety. it works as well, if not better for anxiety for many people. but it does have side effects such as dizzieness, slurred speech and things like that. antidepressants also have side effects such as sexual dysfunction, numb emotions, apathy, tardive dyskinesia, hair loss.

everyone takes these antidepressant ads the wrong way., and the drug companies behind the ads dont mind one bit because it strongly works in their favor. when they make a statement saying something like "prozac works by regulating serotonin in the brain", that does not mean that it fixed the supply of serotonin in the brain, it just means the med adjusted the serotonin in the brain to how it sees fit, and to work against nature and how your brain was made to function.
this is not fixing anything about the brain.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

michael10364 said:


> drugs dont normally fix anything about the brain, they just cover up symptoms. i believe if you go by your logic then you could say alcohol can fix neurological problems behind social anxiety. it works as well, if not better for anxiety for many people. but it does have side effects such as dizzieness, slurred speech and things like that. antidepressants also have side effects such as sexual dysfunction, numb emotions, apathy, tardive dyskinesia, hair loss.
> 
> everyone takes these antidepressant ads the wrong way., and the drug companies behind the ads dont mind one bit because it strongly works in their favor. when they make a statement saying something like "prozac works by regulating serotonin in the brain", that does not mean that it fixed the supply of serotonin in the brain, it just means the med adjusted the serotonin in the brain to how it sees fit, and to work against nature and how your brain was made to function.
> this is not fixing anything about the brain.


I agree that they do not fix anything, they can actually CAUSE a chemical imbalance. It has yet to be proven that there is any abnormal brain function or "chemical imbalance". Its simply not true, in my opinion, and is only a theory.

Because these drugs work for some, does not mean it is fixing anything, just like you pointed out with alcohol. Many things can relieve anxiety and that does not mean they are fixing some sort of disease. There can be so many causes of anxiety and antidepressants should be used as a last resort. I recent study showed talk therapy performed better in the long run compared to antidepressants and you do not have to take the risk of potential adverse reactions or damage from long-term use.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Andrew1980 said:


> And then relapse when you find out that SA is a medical condition.


Thinking like this is what makes anxiety worse. You believe that there is some sort of disease or brain malfunction, but this has never been proven. One reason people feel so helpless is because of all the propaganda which leads them to believe that they have some sort of illness that needs drug therapy.

There is no doubt that anxiety is real and debilitating, but there are also many people who have been able to overcome it with CBT and other therapies that do not involve dangerous drugs. Yes the drugs can help, but you will pay a price. Some will be able to take them for long periods but some will experience cognitive decline and a numerous side effects including diabetes, sexual dysfunction, weight gain, and the list goes on.

The bottom line is that we can overcome our problems and it starts with our thinking- you need to get passed the whole "I have social anxiety disease" or "I have a chemical imbalance" or "my brain is screwed up". Do you realized how powerful our minds are and how, with therapy and other techniques, we can overcome our problems?


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## Inspiron (Nov 30, 2011)

I feel that while medication may help an individual to heal initially, however in the long run who knows what it may cause them. I do agree with the post above that drugs aren't the answer or at least not the only answer.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Inspiron said:


> I feel that while medication may help an individual to heal initially, however in the long run who knows what it may cause them. I do agree with the post above that drugs aren't the answer or at least not the only answer.


Thank your for your support inspiron.

I am constantly battling with these people here and it bothers me that so many of them believe the propaganda and myths about anxiety.

Drug therapy can zap away anxiety, I was on drugs for nearly eight years! Likewise I have tried many alternatives and u know what? Every time I try something new I feel great! Anxiety gone! Then it returns. I realized that it was not the treatments, although some were very helpful indeed, rather it was my mind believing "I am taking this drug, herb, electrical therapy, etc and it will make me better". So I go better, aka the famous placebo affect. Only until I started believing in myslef, analyzing my beliefs, reducing stress, diet and exercise, etc did I really begin to heal. I tapped into the power of my mind and realized that we can overcome anxiety, you need to believe though. And when the myths of "chemical imbalance", "brain dysfunction", "disease", etc are believed, then you will be stuck on the drugs forever and never really fixing anything.

Many folks are happy with drug therapy and that's ok, but there are so many underlying things that can be causing the anxiety that are masked if u simply take the drugs.

Believe people believe in yourselves! This is the first step in my opinion!


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## Area88 (Oct 4, 2010)

The pic above is an MRI scan of going unmedicated and leting depression get worse.


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## michael10364 (Feb 4, 2011)

Area88 said:


> The pic above is an MRI scan of going unmedicated and leting depression get worse.


i think meds have made my brain much like the picture on the left. i can definitely feel MUCH less activity going on up there.

it feels like im using just a speck of my brain.


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## Inspiron (Nov 30, 2011)

Although MRI scans have made progress throughout the years it is still in no way a tool to use for a diagnosis. When you think about it almost anything can affect your brain activity so it just not reliable.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

michael10364 said:


> i think meds have made my brain much like the picture on the left. i can definitely feel MUCH less activity going on up there.
> 
> it feels like im using just a speck of my brain.


I agree with you. I strongly believe in the research done by Petter Breggin that shows psychiatric drugs cause brain damage. Since I got off psychiatric drugs, I have noticed that I actually think more and there is a lot more activity in going on up there. I will respond to the person who posted these images in a second. Seems like he is "drinking the koolaid" and blindly accepting the myth that people feeling depressed or anxious have some sort of brain "disease". Simply not the case. These images miss a lot of important things and too date, after many many years, there is still NO PROOF that there is any "disease" or abnormality in the brains of people with anxiety or depression. THere are a lot of believable brain 'tests' out there like thos used at the Amen clinic, however it still unproven.


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## lazy (Nov 19, 2008)

Area88 said:


> The pic above is an MRI scan of going unmedicated and leting depression get worse.





michael10364 said:


> i think meds have made my brain much like the picture on the left. i can definitely feel MUCH less activity going on up there.
> 
> it feels like im using just a speck of my brain.


That pic is the reason why I recently began self-medicating through supplemental herbs. I've been lurking other forums talking about adaptogens that have nootropic properties, at least based on paper. As well as pertinent nutritional supplements. It is a good accompaniment as you go through CBT, as CBT is a learning process, imo it's better than nothing. Too bad canadian online stores suck. I always worry about missing my package if it's going to come from UPS. At least my local postal carrier leaves an info notice INSIDE my mailbox (i live in an apartment)

A funny observation too, is that reading about the supplement can actually be some form of CBT. It's like this, you read about what it does, and now because you believe that, you might go on and self-fulfill it... just an armchair pet hypothesis.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Area88 said:


> The pic above is an MRI scan of going unmedicated and leting depression get worse.


"Psychiatry's claim that mental illnesses are brain diseases is "a claim supposedly based on recent discoveries in neuroscience, made possible by [brain] imaging techniques for diagnosis and pharmacological agents for treatment. This is not true." -Dr. Thomas Szasz, Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry, New York University Medical School, Syracuse"

Although various brain scanning tools such as this one, the QEEG, and others can help in distinguishing what MAY be the problem, there STILL has never been a certain pattern or observation that can be identified that can accurately determine any type of brain "disease" associated with depression, anxiety, etc.

There are many factors one must take into consideration when using these brain scanning tools. For example, naturally, a person who is depressed will have less energy and less activity in the brain (unless the ruminate a lot) and so some brain scanning tests can easily show a difference in the "normal" brain and the "depressed" brain. This does NOT mean there is a "disease" or that the brain is "abnormal". Further, when a group of people with depression and without depression are compared, reliable differences in brain function can be found. However, this only reflects the fact that individuals with the diagnosis are more likely to show the difference, but there are also individuals with the diagnosis who do not have the same differences.

Another complication is that there is often an element of subjective decision making in analysing brain scans - to produce the familiar 'brain images' we are used to seeing.

So you can continue to believe you have a brain disease, just realize that you are severely hampering your full recovery if you suffer from anxiety or depression. Likewise, your subconscious is extremely powerful and so you need to watch what you believe buddy.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

Area88 said:


> The pic above is an MRI scan of going unmedicated and leting depression get worse.


Oh I forgot to add that there are other brain scans out there showing before and after pictures of someone using antidepressants and you can clearly see there has been some changes (negative) to the brain because of the drugs. I saw the images in a book and if you want them let me know and I will attempt to find them.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Medication is not ideal and often a last resort.

I have no doubt medications can cause long lasting negative changes, but for some people the relief they provide is worth this happening. I mean for people that have been ill for years and years with no respite and who have tried all natural forms of improving the depression.

The brain isnt as simple as the monoamine theory of depression makes it out to be, and changing one thing in the brain is going to throw off many many processes and that may end up being very harmful. I personally think stimulants cause much more damage than ssris do, and there is solid evidence for this in humans and rodent models (Decreased neurogenesis, ect.). However some people think that for the temporary acute benfit, the damage is worth it. That is there decision to make. 

Mental illness is almost certainly chemical related, but the medicines we currently have are so crude that by using them you are almost doing more harm than good to yourself in alot of cases.

Thats why despite believing that chemicals are the reason for the majority of depression and mental illness i do not take any medications whatsoever anymore as they are pathetic. Its arrogant i think for us to think we can alter a chemical without screwing something else up in our wonderfully complex brain soup.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

bben said:


> Medication is not ideal and often a last resort.
> 
> I have no doubt medications can cause long lasting negative changes, but for some people the relief they provide is worth this happening. I mean for people that have been ill for years and years with no respite and who have tried all natural forms of improving the depression.
> 
> ...


Good insight


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## Area88 (Oct 4, 2010)

bruno2006 said:


> Oh I forgot to add that there are other brain scans out there showing before and after pictures of someone using antidepressants and you can clearly see there has been some changes (negative) to the brain because of the drugs. I saw the images in a book and if you want them let me know and I will attempt to find them.


 If you can find these pictures and post them, I would very much appreciate it.


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

What exactly does this picture show? It only says depressed and not depressed. 
If a MRI shows that a depressed person has different brain activity than a non-depressed person then this doesn't mean that SSRI caused it.

I read a book called change your brain from Dr. Amen who does those SPECT scans and from what he said it rather sounds like depressed people already have physiological problems in their brain, like inflammation in certain overactive areas of the brain, which improve after the right drug is given.


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

norad said:


> What exactly does this picture show? It only says depressed and not depressed.
> If a MRI shows that a depressed person has different brain activity than a non-depressed person then this doesn't mean that SSRI caused it.
> 
> I read a book called change your brain from Dr. Amen who does those SPECT scans and from what he said it rather sounds like depressed people already have physiological problems in their brain, like inflammation in certain overactive areas of the brain, which improve after the right drug is given.


Research Dr. Amen and his methods. He is looked down upon by many psychiatrists and is even featured on quackwatch. His brain testing stuff is crap and, as mentioned 1000 times, there is no reliable evidence or test that can accurately say a person who suffers from anxiety and depression or other illnesses as any sort of "brain disease".


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## Inspiron (Nov 30, 2011)

norad said:


> What exactly does this picture show? It only says depressed and not depressed.
> If a MRI shows that a depressed person has different brain activity than a non-depressed person then this doesn't mean that SSRI caused it.
> 
> I read a book called change your brain from Dr. Amen who does those SPECT scans and from what he said it rather sounds like depressed people already have physiological problems in their brain, like inflammation in certain overactive areas of the brain, which improve after the right drug is given.


There is no way of diagnosing a person with MRI brain scans; the standards aren't there. Doctors who claim that they can do it aren't telling the truth; sadly to say this is just another way for drug companies to bring in more profits. Although drugs do alter brain chemicals in such a way that can actually cause an imbalance.


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## nightwalker (Nov 20, 2008)

QuietBoy99 said:


> It may seem like it's working in the short-term but the side effects and damage will catch up to you in the long-term.


so what are the long-term effects?


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## bruno2006 (Jul 21, 2011)

There can be a host of long term problems, its really an individual thing. I would suggest reading checking out a previous post under "long term cognitive effects" where I cited a lot of studies about side effects and also check out a book called "anatomy of an epidemic" where the author reviews the scientific literature of the history of psychiatric drugs and how they can do more harm than good in the long run.


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