# Finally got an Adderall script (for SA)



## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

To my surprise, my pdoc is finally letting me give 10mg Adderall XR a try to see if a strong dopaminergic can combat my avoidant social phobia. I'll progressively update this thread once I begin taking it to share its effects on social motivation, confidence, and sociability.

Anyway, I'm off to get this script filled.


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## soaringfalcon11 (Jun 7, 2009)

Can't wait for the updates. You have a sweet doc.


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## stealyourface722 (Aug 31, 2008)

it might give you some anxiety but it does increase drive and mood quite a bit


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

stealyourface722 said:


> it might give you some anxiety but it does increase drive and mood quite a bit


I think he (or much more likely an imaginary figure like him) does have benzos or GABAergic drugs in general to counteract that anxiety...


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

honastud said:


> Don't know if this is something I would be proud about. Once you start this you can go ahead and plan on staying on it for life. I'm off of it now, was on it for 1.5 years and it totally changed me. I'm not the same person now. No enjoyment in life except my morning jolt of Starbucks coffee.
> It's good for a while, maybe 3 months then it starts going down hill. I have a feeling you'll find out. This want do sh*t for avoidance except make it worse. It will give you energy and confidence to do things, but if your avoidant of people,this will only make it worse and probably give you obsessive behaviors.
> 
> Sounds like your doc gave up and went the easy route. It does help just about every ailment that people has in the short run but in the long run it is bad.
> ...


I'm not planning on using it every day, only when I have to face intimidating social situations. And my doc has Rx'ed me many other failed meds, why not try a new class of drugs for a change?



Medline said:


> I think he (or more an imaginary character like him) does have benzos or GABAergic drugs in general as well...


Yeah I've got plenty of clonazepam around for anxiety. I just took 1mg right now to ease my hypochondria concerning adverse cardiovascular effects.

I'm going to go spend a bit of time now with some of my extended family who just recently came into town, so I'll report back later on how things went while on the Adderall.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

whoa. how did you manage that? did your doc get you to try other meds first or did you just state your case for the adderall helping and convinced them to get you a script?

the help on my SA went in steps: first it helped with being talkative as a result of being more alert and more aware in situations, but new situations were still scary. over time success (or at least, improvement) helped me gain confidence in my abilities. it doesn't cure my SA, it has just helped in making it easier, and the regular exposure (compared to once every month or two) has just helped me gain experience and now i feel much better in being able to go out and meet people. so part of it is myself and not just the drug but it has certainly helped a lot (it doesn't _always _help, if i'm overtired i still suck at socializing and in general many situations are still difficult but it has improved a lot in the past six months).

not to mention it has helped immensely with school.
but i'm out of school right now, and will be until 2010. i do have much more free time during the day when i'm not working (when i socialize its usually later), and the adderall has certainly changed certain habits. particularly the most difficult is the hyper focusing. it is mostly a very good aspect BUT if i get stuck doing something, i can easily waste away more time than planned doing it and can up to hours while other things that have to get done are pushed off. it's just a matter of setting a schedule every day and forcing you to do more than one thing.

good example - before the adderall, the inattentive ADHD would cause me to easily lose focus and concentration and stop doing something despite interest. now that it's sort of gone, once i get interested i can't stop.

now wikipedia is practically a CURSE as i can waste hours constantly reading new pages and every new page i read i click on at least one link to another page (or more), and read about a related topic and it goes on and on like that... kind of funny really. it's just a matter of stopping myself from wasting too much time on something unimportant or unproductive. even leaving the house helps. i've been going to the library occasionally (the biggest here), finding a topic and getting few a books on that and flip through them a few hours. i don't see it as a waste of time as i leave when i have things to do, and it's great fun since before i couldn't focus well enough and retain the information.

i've just been making lists that i carry with me always of things i must do.. call someone, pick up a book on hold, do my laundry, etc. in that sense i am more organize as before my usual habit was to put things off and forget. being aware of that has made me even more organized, actually.


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## RockiNToM (Jun 15, 2009)

I feel like anti-depressants in general make me feel like I have ADD, because I lose motivation and I can't concentrate properly, but this probably more to do with the fact I don't actually care.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

honastud said:


> around and have to use it just to get me in the mood to clean the house, mow the yard etc.


could you post the sources/link(s) behind that pic and the related information?


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## cheesycow5 (Jun 1, 2009)

honastud said:


> Don't know if this is something I would be proud about. Once you start this you can go ahead and plan on staying on it for life. I'm off of it now, was on it for 1.5 years and it totally changed me. I'm not the same person now. No enjoyment in life except my morning jolt of Starbucks coffee.
> It's good for a while, maybe 3 months then it starts going down hill. I have a feeling you'll find out. This want do sh*t for avoidance except make it worse. It will give you energy and confidence to do things, but if your avoidant of people,this will only make it worse and probably give you obsessive behaviors.


Most people who are avoidant or socially anxious and take amphetamines usually feel amazingly cured in that regard, at least for the duration of the effects.

The picture is about methamphetamine, which is known to be much more dangerous than amphetamine.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> To my surprise, my pdoc is finally letting me give 10mg Adderall XR a try to see if a strong dopaminergic can combat my avoidant social phobia. I'll progressively update this thread once I begin taking it to share its effects on social motivation, confidence, and sociability.
> 
> Anyway, I'm off to get this script filled.


Nice one man.



honastud said:


> Don't know if this is something I would be proud about.


Methamphetamine is a great deal more neurotoxic than regular amphetamine. Also, I believe IllusionalFate was going to try using it (in low doses) with selegiline, which fully blocks neurotoxicity. He'll probably use magnesium too for preventing tolerance.



> I'm off of it now, was on it for 1.5 years and it totally changed me. I'm not the same person now. No enjoyment in life except my morning jolt of Starbucks coffee.
> It's good for a while, maybe 3 months then it starts going down hill. I have a feeling you'll find out. This want do sh*t for avoidance except make it worse. It will give you energy and confidence to do things, but if your avoidant of people,this will only make it worse and probably give you obsessive behaviors.


This is all true, but taking magnesium supplements should balance out the excess glutamate which leads to tolerance (and rebound anhedonia).


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

nothing to fear said:


> now wikipedia is practically a CURSE as i can waste hours constantly reading new pages and every new page i read i click on at least one link to another page (or more), and read about a related topic and it goes on and on like that...


I'm glad I'm not the only person who gets sucked into Wikipedia for hours on end jumping from page to page to page reading about ... everything. :b

Congrats on the Adderall script!


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## bobthebuilder (Jun 17, 2009)

Ive tried 10mg of adderall once... it put me to sleep. So i tried 25. Didnt really feel anything, until it wore off. the side effects were like...extra anxiety. might try 35-40 sometime.


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## TheUnwelcome (Jul 9, 2009)

I can tell you amphetamine does screw with your memory a little. I have been taking it for about a year and a half and my memory definately isnt as sharp. Sometimes I have to remember how to spell words that I knew how to spell perfectly, but this could also be due to depression and brain fog. Also many people forget to eat or don't eat as much as they should when on adderall due to not feeling hungry or the idea of food makes them feel kinda sick because they have to force it down. This can lead to a nutrition deficiency which has a lot to do with memory depression and lots of other effects.

There are several things you can do to counteract the effects of amphetamine degrading the brain. 

Everything in this Natural Regimen is available without a prescription, they are NATURAL.

- Vitamin B Complex for the reproduction of Dopamine, this will help benefit Depression, Anxiety Disorders, Alezheimer's disease, Chronic fatigue, Addiction disorders (Too much Adderall), and Parkinson's disease. 
- 5-HTP for the reproduction of Serotonin 
- Magnesium Supplement to control the Tolerance to Adderall
- Melatonin; Natures Sleep Hormone sleeping medication
- Pantothenic Acid, which is one of the B vitamins. At a dose of 250mg to 500mg, it enahnces energy, alertness and elevates mood.
- Coenzyme Q10 plays a role in the energy-production system in each cell. A Dose of 30 to 90mg in the morning leads to increased energy that is noticed by mid afternoon and evening.
- TMG - Tri-Methyl-Glyceride is a lesser-known nutrient that has potent effects on mood. After a few hours of your dosage (250mg to 1000mg) you may notice a high increase in energy and elevation of mood.

Also make sure you try to take it at around the same time every time you take it. It will be increasingly harder to sleep each night if you don't plan it in your routine. Sleep is even more important on adderall.

Also any damage that the adderall does is minor and repairable unless you are chonically abusing it. It could take several months or a year though before the receptors heal.

Good luck and if you have any more questions let me know. I am an expert on adderall and I have done a lot of research on it myself because I was worried about any damage it might be doing.


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## bowlingpins (Oct 18, 2008)

honastud said:


> Don't know if this is something I would be proud about.


It would be interesting to see similar brain mapping of the effect of untreated stress and anxiety. Another psych. disorder (schizophrenia) causes massive loss of brain tissue and this is most likely even more accelerated w/o treatment. Average life expectancy is 27 years less than normal. 
Getting treatment for psych. conditions involves tradeoffs but is important.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Woah, this drug absolutely crushes my SA completely! I feel confident, talkative, motivated, cognitively enhanced, socially competent, and even euphoric. It also completely eliminates my avoidant behavior and makes me feel like I can handle being in any social situation with ease. My driver's test is coming up in a few days and I don't even feel nervous about taking it at all. If I walked out of my psychiatrist's office this afternoon without a script in hand I would have canceled it by now



nothing to fear said:


> whoa. how did you manage that? did your doc get you to try other meds first or did you just state your case for the adderall helping and convinced them to get you a script?


I had to jump through a few hoops before he would even consider it, and after I tried Nardil for a little over 8 weeks to little avail I suggested that a dopaminergic based regimen would give me the confidence I need to get a job or attend school. He tried to convince me that staying on Nardil would've eventually got me out of this rut, and that there was no drug available that could magically turn things around for me in an instant - But then he mentioned that I was pretty treatment resistant and if I didn't want to go back on Nardil then he wouldn't mind trying out a psychostimulant.



euphoria said:


> Also, I believe IllusionalFate was going to try using it (in low doses) with selegiline, which fully blocks neurotoxicity. He'll probably use magnesium too for preventing tolerance.


I might try combining it with selegiline if I end up taking Adderall frequently enough. Magnesium and possibly also memantine will be used for tolerance prevention.


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## bowlingpins (Oct 18, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> To my surprise, my pdoc is finally letting me give 10mg Adderall XR a try to see if a strong dopaminergic can combat my avoidant social phobia. I'll progressively update this thread once I begin taking it to share its effects on social motivation, confidence, and sociability.
> 
> Anyway, I'm off to get this script filled.


If you have taken benzos. before, how does benzo. withdrawal compare to stimulant use?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

bowlingpins said:


> If you have taken benzos. before, how does benzo. withdrawal compare to stimulant use?


You mean benzo withdrawal compared to stimulant withdrawal? I'm not quite sure, since I use both only intermittently.


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## bowlingpins (Oct 18, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> You mean benzo withdrawal compared to stimulant withdrawal? I'm not quite sure, since I use both only intermittently.


Well sort of, I meant benzo. withdrawal with stimulant use (not stimulant withdrawal). Benzos. are depressants, so during withdrawal you often get stimulant effects, I was wondering how these compare to stimulant effects from amphetamines. They are probably not similar because benzo. withdrawal is associated with rebound anxiety and stimulant use (in your case atleast) makes you less anxious.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

TheUnwelcome said:


> I can tell you amphetamine does screw with your memory a little. I have been taking it for about a year and a half and my memory definately isnt as sharp. Sometimes I have to remember how to spell words that I knew how to spell perfectly, but this could also be due to depression and brain fog. Also many people forget to eat or don't eat as much as they should when on adderall due to not feeling hungry or the idea of food makes them feel kinda sick because they have to force it down. This can lead to a nutrition deficiency which has a lot to do with memory depression and lots of other effects.
> 
> There are several things you can do to counteract the effects of amphetamine degrading the brain.
> 
> ...


how much magnesium should i be taking? 
right now i take one tablet of 100mg of "Elemental Magnesium (From a highly absorbable natural magnesium complex source of oxide, citrate, fumarate, malate, succinate and glutamate.)"

in my multivitamin there is also 50mg of "Magnesium (HVP Chelate)".

are those the right type of magnesium i should be getting?


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## TheUnwelcome (Jul 9, 2009)

I take 400 mg Magnesium Glycinate before I go to sleep every night.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

bowlingpins said:


> Well sort of, I meant benzo. withdrawal with stimulant use (not stimulant withdrawal). Benzos. are depressants, so during withdrawal you often get stimulant effects, I was wondering how these compare to stimulant effects from amphetamines. They are probably not similar because benzo. withdrawal is associated with rebound anxiety and stimulant use (in your case atleast) makes you less anxious.


Benzo withdrawal will just result in excessive anxiety and/or dysphoria due to catecholamine release before the receptors have upregulated.


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## n1kkuh (Jul 11, 2008)

Welcome to the wonderful world of Adderall. Yes the toxic/neurotoxic qualities should be a scare for everyone taking it, but since you will be taking it in rather moderate dosages I think you should be good.

Someone I know who also has SA has recently started taking Adderall, he even traded his friend for some of his own Ativan pills in exchange for adderall. After he took a very good recreational dose (50mg) he decided to use it sparingly to help treat his SA. He's been taking 10mg along with an ativan in the morning and he feels great. Of course, by midday he's a little tired, but nothing that debilitates him. He thoroughly has enjoyed Adderall's effects and has been taking a cheap magnesium supplement which hopefully has been helping him with tolerance. Also, in reguards to toxcity, he has been taking lots of anti-oxidants, although, he isn't sure if that will reverse neurotoxic effects, which seem to be of greatest concern. Is Selegeline the only thing that can reverse it? If it is I don't know if he feels comfortable taking the two at the same time, he feels he has enough stuff in his body.

As for myself, I am going to try everything in my will power to get an adderall prescrip from my doc.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Regarding the lovely "your brain on meth" pic how much meth was needed to produce what at most was a 5% loss? Did they have to look at the brains of people who spent the last decade doing little other than flying high on meth daily?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Forgot to mention: I checked my blood pressure several times over the first three hours after taking the first capsule, and it peaked at 154/90 (pulse 69). That's quite a bit higher than I expected, as according to the Adderall Prescribing Information the average increase in BP is between 2-4mmHg. Maybe at 13 days post-Nardil, my MAO enzymes are still partially inhibited.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

IllusionalFate said:


> Forgot to mention: I checked my blood pressure several times over the first three hours after taking the first capsule, and it peaked at 154/90 (pulse 69). That's quite a bit higher than I expected, as according to the Adderall Prescribing Information the average increase in BP is between 2-4mmHg. Maybe at 13 days post-Nardil, my MAO enzymes are still partially inhibited.


Could be that your were nervous? Checking your BP several times tends to suggest you were nervous about it going up.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

UltraShy said:


> Could be that your were nervous? Checking your BP several times tends to suggest you were nervous about it going up.


When I'm nervous I find my systolic to increase only around 5-10mmHg, and I believe psychological state has no bearing over diastolic pressure.


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## stealyourface722 (Aug 31, 2008)

honastud said:


> Don't know if this is something I would be proud about.


pfft its just a theory. plus thats people who dont need them. people who abuse them or take to much, yea. But dont go and put propoganda on here lol. AND that says meth users. aka drug abusers. and meth is dangerous in general.


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## stealyourface722 (Aug 31, 2008)

Medline said:


> I think he (or much more likely an imaginary figure like him) does have benzos or GABAergic drugs in general to counteract that anxiety...


o ok doc.


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## Cast Away (Feb 12, 2009)

Dude that is so cool. Ive told my psychiatrist about all the positive experiences people have had on adderall and he dosnt believe me. If this whole nardil thing fails i need to get somebody to tell this mofo it does work.


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## MissMay1977 (Oct 25, 2008)

blah on Adderall


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## Attica! Attica! (Oct 8, 2008)

ooo I can't wait to try adderall! My doctor is pretty liberal with scripts, and will hopefully let me try nardil too. Unfortunately, I was deemed to "unstable" at the moment, as a newly diagnosed bipoler as well as social anxiety. I should be able to try it soonish though, since i'm feeling a bit better on meds.

On a different note, can you take adderall with nardil?


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## wantotalk (May 4, 2009)

I was prescribed Vyvanse, and was titrated up to 70 mg, I am also taking xanax. At each new dosage of Vyvanse the pro-social affects became less prominent, to the point, where at 70 mg a day I was starting to feel anxious and agitated. So we have started lowering the dosage, perhaps it's about finding the right balance. I did take magnesium daily to minimize 'tolerance,' not sure how to measure if it is working.

Mind you, I was not prescribed this med for social anxiety, but my doctor said that it would initially give me a kick in the pants, motivate me and make me more social. We will see how lower dosages work out.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Attica! Attica! said:


> ooo I can't wait to try adderall! My doctor is pretty liberal with scripts, and will hopefully let me try nardil too. Unfortunately, I was deemed to "unstable" at the moment, as a newly diagnosed bipoler as well as social anxiety. I should be able to try it soonish though, since i'm feeling a bit better on meds.
> 
> On a different note, can you take adderall with nardil?


Nardil ameliorated my severe social phobia a great deal, but didn't give me that "superhuman" feeling that I needed in order to get past my social avoidance. I definitely recommend trying Nardil first as it provides 24/7 relief and isn't cardio- or neurotoxic, unlike amphetamines.

As for combining the two, Nardil + amphetamine PRN would probably work brilliantly for treating all types of SA. It can be a fatal combination but if done right is safe, you would just need to add something to inhibit amphetamine's noradrenaline release to prevent a hypertensive crisis. Rocknroll714 found a few interesting studies documenting the concomitant use of MAOIs and psychostimulants, and if I recall correctly they yielded positive results. These two classes are extremely rarely prescribed together though (since they're contraindicated), and most Pdocs won't even consider it.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

:O

All I have to say is that amphetamine is the best drug ever. I'm on only 20mg XR at the moment and the effects are blowing me away. I literally am seeking out people to talk to (like hanging out with my brother's friends rather than hiding in my room when they're over) because the social drive is so powerful. I also have tons of inspiration and motivation to accomplish things in my lifetime and I feel like nothing can stand in my way. Before this med, I felt socially inferior and incapable of interacting with other people, but now socializing is incredibly easy and both my self-esteem and confidence have gone through the roof.

Today I was thinking about signing up for some college courses and looking for job applications, and am so eager to finally be able to start my life after being such a recluse throughout my entire teen years. Goodbye SA!


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

I dosed 2mg clonazepam six hours before taking two 10mg XR capsules, but the main effects of the benzo probably started wearing off shortly after the Adderall began kicking in. Then later I smoked some weed before the Adderall wore off so I'm not even sure how much longer the effects lasted for, I was too baked to know for sure. Plus, the comedown was so smooth I didn't even notice it.

I'm going to wait a few days before trying out one 10mg capsule in the morning without taking anything else at least 10-15 hours before dosing (except maybe magnesium glycinate), and nothing during the duration of the effects. Then I'm going to put myself in a social situation that I would never be able to handle pre-Adderall and record its efficacy and length of action.



IllusionalFate said:


> Forgot to mention: I checked my blood pressure several times over the first three hours after taking the first capsule, and it peaked at 154/90 (pulse 69). That's quite a bit higher than I expected, as according to the Adderall Prescribing Information the average increase in BP is between 2-4mmHg. Maybe at 13 days post-Nardil, my MAO enzymes are still partially inhibited.


I believe the phenelzine having not fully cleared out of my system at the time is what caused this, because taking twice the dose this time only resulted in a peak blood pressure increase to 137/80 with a pulse of 93 which didn't even last too long before completely returning to normal.


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## Omnium11 (Feb 11, 2009)

You can do a lot to repair the damages caused my amphetamines.

Exercise and meditation are key

http://rogerhaeske.com/?p=330


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

IllusionalFate said:


> :O
> 
> All I have to say is that amphetamine is the best drug ever. I'm on only 20mg XR at the moment and the effects are blowing me away. I literally am seeking out people to talk to (like hanging out with my brother's friends rather than hiding in my room when they're over) because the social drive is so powerful. I also have tons of inspiration and motivation to accomplish things in my lifetime and I feel like nothing can stand in my way. Before this med, I felt socially inferior and incapable of interacting with other people, but now socializing is incredibly easy and both my self-esteem and confidence have gone through the roof.
> 
> Today I was thinking about signing up for some college courses and looking for job applications, and am so eager to finally be able to start my life after being such a recluse throughout my entire teen years. Goodbye SA!


yes, i consider it the best drug ever as well.
the beauty of it all is that the people in my life who freak out or lecture or look down on me if i just take one toke of weed, barely even blink an eye at taking this drug, which is basically speed, because of that single slip of paper with my doctor's scribbled notes and signature and my name.









i loved the initial "tweaky"/euphoric effects, but they do eventually fade. which sucks. i am taking them for inattentive ADHD so the effects on my concentration, attention, and focusing are still as present but the other extra sweet aspects have gone done considerably.
it still helps my SA, but i don't have those "YAYY i love everything and everyone" feelings... doesn't make me as perky like it used to.

the initial main problem was my appetite which eventually had a bad affect on my over all physical well-being. i'd always feel faint in the mornings and when i would stand up too quickly. i take vitamin b-complex and it actually helps considerably. i notice if i skip it or i take it later i get the fainting feeling in the morning. i've also been taking other vitamins, which have helped.

probably the ONLY issue now, is the hyperfocus. which is great at times but i waste way more time on the computer than i should. honestly i usually spend this much time in my room and on the net but it feels like i just don't pry myself away enough and suddenly it's 12:30am and i still haven't done my laundry or showered or cleaned my room like i had planned. i can easily get caught up in doing only ONE thing on the computer. i love reading/reasearching, but it's just more intense this time. ohhh wikipedia is the WORST for that. 
the only way it's having a bad affect on my SA is that if i don't remember to sign on MSN early on to talk to anyone, then i completely forget as i get so engrossed in other tasks and i end up not talking to anyone all day or night, and it may go on for a few days if i continuously forget. 
however that hasn't stopped me from wanting to socialize and i still go out and try to push myself always in seeing people. i don't see myself getting so obsessive with doing reading or research on the computer that i wouldn't go out, i can't imagine that actually


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

nothing to fear said:


> i loved the initial "tweaky"/euphoric effects, but they do eventually fade. which sucks. i am taking them for inattentive ADHD so the effects on my concentration, attention, and focusing are still as present but the other extra sweet aspects have gone done considerably.
> it still helps my SA, but i don't have those "YAYY i love everything and everyone" feelings... doesn't make me as perky like it used to.


Yeah, keeping those awesome effects from dying off will be a difficult task. I'm really hoping I don't develop a tolerance to them, which is why I'm going to try to limit my use of amphetamines to a max of 3 days per week and take a magnesium supplement before each dose. Those measures should help a good deal, I'm just not sure if it will be enough to thwart tolerance.



> the initial main problem was my appetite which eventually had a bad affect on my over all physical well-being. i'd always feel faint in the mornings and when i would stand up too quickly. i take vitamin b-complex and it actually helps considerably. i notice if i skip it or i take it later i get the fainting feeling in the morning. i've also been taking other vitamins, which have helped.
> 
> probably the ONLY issue now, is the hyperfocus. which is great at times but i waste way more time on the computer than i should. honestly i usually spend this much time in my room and on the net but it feels like i just don't pry myself away enough and suddenly it's 12:30am and i still haven't done my laundry or showered or cleaned my room like i had planned. i can easily get caught up in doing only ONE thing on the computer. i love reading/reasearching, but it's just more intense this time. ohhh wikipedia is the WORST for that.
> the only way it's having a bad affect on my SA is that if i don't remember to sign on MSN early on to talk to anyone, then i completely forget as i get so engrossed in other tasks and i end up not talking to anyone all day or night, and it may go on for a few days if i continuously forget.
> however that hasn't stopped me from wanting to socialize and i still go out and try to push myself always in seeing people. i don't see myself getting so obsessive with doing reading or research on the computer that i wouldn't go out, i can't imagine that actually


I love the hyperfocus! Although I don't have ADD or ADHD, it makes reading/researching a hell of a lot easier and enjoyable (I too enjoy this without Adderall, but like you said it increases in intensity). Thing is, I get caught up in those endless Wikipedia reading sprees similar to what you describe even when I'm not on Adderall. So when on amp I can soak up information much quicker than I usually do, while at the same time it allows me to have more control over my daily activities by providing energy and motivation while toning down compulsiveness.

I also noticed the anorectic properties yesterday after going 18 hours without a single bite to eat. The good part is that the only reason why I went that long was because I didn't feel like my body needed any food, not because food lost its appetizingness.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Freesix88 said:


> I'm on 40 mg ritalin and I'm hyper as a rat in a cage (but in a good way).
> I use ritalin till I've found a better stimulant.


You could always tell your doc that Ritalin has been giving you too much anxiety lately and that you'd like to try a different psychostimulant.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

ritalin made me too agitated/jumpy in an unpleasant way. i found the feelings from adderall to be more.. "clean", if that's the word to use. adderall is def much better than ritalin. if you want to give it a shot then def mention that you want to at least test out something better.


yea even though it's a problem at times, the hyperfocus is overall SO much better than not being able to focus for more than a few minutes and taking ages to get something done. there has always been so much i'm interested in but find it hard to do a lot of reading on it. i've always liked libraries but i tended to lose concentration once i picked up some books and give up since i can't focus and retain information. now when i go, and i pick up a bunch of books on topics i'm into, then i can go through them all successfully, without even stopping to look around the room or having other thoughts take over. that is an incredible feeling. i take some notes and i actually retain the information and walk out feeling very pleased and a bit proud of myself. if i can do that easily on my own as just a hobby i imagine i'd excel so much if i was in school now.


another super-amazing aspect of adderall is being able to actually express my thoughts in conversations in person (if my mood is well enough). there are certainly situations in which i am still shy and hold back but overall i can organize my thoughts so much better and if i'm feeling relaxed actually converse really well.
that isn't always good online, though. on forums i end up getting way too much into a topic and writing posts 10x as long as they should be then later being like "jeez that was stupid and pointless". 
i'm thinking of installing the "leechblock" program again, just in the mornings since i end up being late for certain appts/affairs when i get too into checking up or reading certain sites.



as for the anorectic properties, i'm not gonna lie.. though i keep this from most people IRL, but i am really enjoying them. i can definitely see why they hesitate to give this drug to those with eating disorders, or maybe even similar issues. :/ i'm trying to eat well and my weight has been steady for the past couple weeks but i definitely think about it now more than i have before (i don't have an ED but it has been an issue/obsession off and on since i was 14, basically). i think i'm at my lowest weight ever, which puts my bmi at 17.3 currently. :|


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

nothing to fear said:


> another super-amazing aspect of adderall is being able to actually express my thoughts in conversations in person (if my mood is well enough). there are certainly situations in which i am still shy and hold back but overall i can organize my thoughts so much better and if i'm feeling relaxed actually converse really well.
> that isn't always good online, though. on forums i end up getting way too much into a topic and writing posts 10x as long as they should be then later being like "jeez that was stupid and pointless".
> i'm thinking of installing the "leechblock" program again, just in the mornings since i end up being late for certain appts/affairs when i get too into checking up or reading certain sites.


This helps me so much in real life conversations. I frequently pause mid-sentence because I can't find the right word to say, or have trouble putting together the words to share a thought or idea, but with Adderall it's as if my mouth automatically puts those sentences together for me. It's great being able to not have to put such an insane amount of effort into communicating. I wish this could translate to my fingers as well though, because it's still a pain in the *** for me to just type out a freaking post - probably because the internet allows me to re-read and edit things to death before I hit 'Submit Reply'.


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## Jrock (Dec 16, 2008)

Whats the latest?


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## miminka (May 10, 2009)

Hopefully it works out for you. That was the first medication I was put on to help calm me down since I was hyper-anxious. Meh, I found it made no discernible difference to be quite honest. All it seemed to do was quiet the thoughts in my head. Or maybe that was just my imagination...


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Jrock said:


> Whats the latest?


I just got back from vacation, so I haven't had the opportunity to experiment more with it but I have some plans to test out if this really is the drug that can "cure" my SA.


Join a support group
Pick up as many job applications as possible
Doesn't sound like much, but these are a couple things that SA has kept me from doing the past few years. I'm also enrolling in a pre-collegiate math course that starts in the fall to get me prepared for college, and since this will be a classroom environment which I'm terrified of (the reason I dropped out of high school) I'll know very soon if Adderall really is the drug that can get me through this mess.



AudreyHepburn said:


> Hopefully it works out for you. That was the first medication I was put on to help calm me down since I was hyper-anxious. Meh, I found it made no discernible difference to be quite honest. All it seemed to do was quiet the thoughts in my head. Or maybe that was just my imagination...


Wow, that's amazing you were prescribed Adderall right off the bat. Sorry to hear it didn't work for you - maybe you'd benefit more from a benzo or some other psycholeptic. Stimulants usually exacerbate anxiety for most people so they're not the best first-line treatment.


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## miminka (May 10, 2009)

Yeah, I wasn't exactly prescribed it per se, I was given it when I went to the hospital because I was literally convulsing out of panic. I thought I had swine flu. Mais non. I should have mentioned that...

Oh, do you think the doctors would prescribe anything for my anxiety? Or are they typically a little wary prescribing to people my age? I shouldn't think so, however I don't know. I'm getting my diagnosis soon (as in, the end of the week) and I'm really anxious to know if they'll put me on anything.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

If they are reluctant to prescribe something at your age, you shouldn't have to wait too much longer (if you do want to try medication, that is). My primary physician had no problem putting me on several SSRIs when I was 15, and I remember there was someone else who posted here who was on medication at 15 as well.


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## n1kkuh (Jul 11, 2008)

So, you've been taking it for a month now, have the effects died down or is it still working well for you?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

n1kkuh said:


> So, you've been taking it for a month now, have the effects died down or is it still working well for you?


It still seems to work great, but that's probably because I've only taken it 13 of the 36 days I've had access to it. I haven't actually had an opportunity to test if it really does work well enough yet, since I don't have a job or attend college, and I don't have any friends that I can just call up to hang out with. I suppose I'll have to wait until September 28th (when my pre-collegiate math course begins) in order to evaluate its true efficacy. Definitely is an awesome mood-booster though, even at just 10mg.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

stimulants do seem to help me as well...but its only short term obviously, they give me more energy, increased focus, more social, more lively BBBBUUUUTTTT they dont seem to make me socially amibitious..meaning they dont give me social desire and thats what i lack bigtime....if im thrown into a social situation, i can hang with the best of them but when it comes to making social situations happen on my own, its usually a monstrous amount of willpower behind it....in the end it usually isnt worth the effort so i dunno...is adderall any different in that regard??


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

belfort said:


> stimulants do seem to help me as well...but its only short term obviously, they give me more energy, increased focus, more social, more lively BBBBUUUUTTTT they dont seem to make me socially amibitious..meaning they dont give me social desire and thats what i lack bigtime....if im thrown into a social situation, i can hang with the best of them but when it comes to making social situations happen on my own, its usually a monstrous amount of willpower behind it....in the end it usually isnt worth the effort so i dunno...is adderall any different in that regard??


It increases social motivation a lot for me. Whenever I take Adderall, I start feeling like I have tons of things to say and my main priority becomes thinking up ways I can find people to communicate with.

Which stimulants have you tried?


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

^^ephedrine and provigil....like i said i was very social but i wasnt socially motivated....do you actually feel very motivated to leave the house and go out to find and meet people..if adderall provides that feeling, here i come mr adderall!!!i can talk to people just fine, its the motivating factor behind it which i am terrible at..


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## n1kkuh (Jul 11, 2008)

belfort said:


> ^^ephedrine and provigil....like i said i was very social but i wasnt socially motivated....do you actually feel very motivated to leave the house and go out to find and meet people..if adderall provides that feeling, here i come mr adderall!!!i can talk to people just fine, its the motivating factor behind it which i am terrible at..


I found that it did this at the higher doses, where I felt a pretty good rush of Euphoria, thus making me super prosocial (and I mean chatting up random strangers, which I never do). When I took it at a normal human dose I found my ability to socialize raised, which was good enough for me, and I was on a low dose of benzo at the same time, anxiety was still there, but you know, what're you gonna do?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

belfort said:


> ^^ephedrine and provigil....like i said i was very social but i wasnt socially motivated....do you actually feel very motivated to leave the house and go out to find and meet people..if adderall provides that feeling, here i come mr adderall!!!i can talk to people just fine, its the motivating factor behind it which i am terrible at..


Ephedrine and Provigil aren't dopamine releasing agents, and if they do in fact facilitate the release of dopamine it's to a much milder extent than d-amphetamine (the isomer of amphetamine that Adderall is mainly comprised of). Since dopamine is the neurotransmitter most responsible for motivation and reward, a DRA would likely provide that motivation boost you're looking for.

Adderall makes me feel like I can accomplish anything and gives me the energy and desire to do it for the span of a few hours. It gives me the confidence and motivation to face social situations, and if I actually had a way of meeting people that'd be the first thing I'd be doing after my next dose. Hopefully in college I'll be able to take advantage of that feeling.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

^^what about aderalls effects on the adrenal glands if taken for months years??does it deplete the adrenals like most amphetamines???even if taken 3-4 days a week i imagine you would still feel the side effects....i dunno...


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

belfort said:


> ^^what about aderalls effects on the adrenal glands if taken for months years??does it deplete the adrenals like most amphetamines???even if taken 3-4 days a week i imagine you would still feel the side effects....i dunno...


Not sure what the longterm effects are on the adrenal glands. Anyone who has links to study(s) which focus on this subject please post them, as now that it has been brought up I'm curious to find out more about the consequences of chronic amphetamine use.

I know amphetamines can precipitate the depletion of central dopamine levels over time, resulting in toxicity to dopaminergic neurons. Since amphetamine is also a substrate of the NET, once it is inside the neuron it induces release of norepinephrine much in the same way it releases dopamine from vesicular storage sites - by reversing the action of the monoamine transporter proteins. So it would make sense that amphetamine also carries the same risk of toxicity to the [nor]adrenaline system.

Frankly, from the little I know about amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity, the longterm risks do not concern me much. If this drug ends up being the only solution to my social phobia as it so far appears to be, I'd take the bad with the good in a heartbeat.


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## n1kkuh (Jul 11, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> Not sure what the longterm effects are on the adrenal glands. Anyone who has links to study(s) which focus on this subject please post them, as now that it has been brought up I'm curious to find out more about the consequences of chronic amphetamine use.
> 
> I know amphetamines can precipitate the depletion of central dopamine levels over time, resulting in toxicity to dopaminergic neurons. Since amphetamine is also a substrate of the NET, once it is inside the neuron it induces release of norepinephrine much in the same way it releases dopamine from vesicular storage sites - by reversing the action of the monoamine transporter proteins. So it would make sense that amphetamine also carries the same risk of toxicity to the [nor]adrenaline system.
> 
> Frankly, from the little I know about amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity, the longterm risks do not concern me much. If this drug ends up being the only solution to my social phobia as it so far appears to be, I'd take the bad with the good in a heartbeat.


I've heard rumors that chelated magnesium is good for while taking amphetamines. I'd also add a mix of different antioxidants to take daily for good measure l-cystine mostly. ANd I also heard that l-tyrosine and DLPA is good to take with it too for when it wears off.


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## Jrock (Dec 16, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> If this drug ends up being the only solution to my social phobia as it so far appears to be, I'd take the bad with the good in a heartbeat.


And what about when the bad finally arrives?


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> Not sure what the longterm effects are on the adrenal glands. Anyone who has links to study(s) which focus on this subject please post them, as now that it has been brought up I'm curious to find out more about the consequences of chronic amphetamine use.
> 
> I know amphetamines can precipitate the depletion of central dopamine levels over time, resulting in toxicity to dopaminergic neurons. Since amphetamine is also a substrate of the NET, once it is inside the neuron it induces release of norepinephrine much in the same way it releases dopamine from vesicular storage sites - by reversing the action of the monoamine transporter proteins. So it would make sense that amphetamine also carries the same risk of toxicity to the [nor]adrenaline system.
> 
> Frankly, from the little I know about amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity, the longterm risks do not concern me much. If this drug ends up being the only solution to my social phobia as it so far appears to be, I'd take the bad with the good in a heartbeat.


Methamphetamine is known to be neurotoxic, obviously, and not so much regular amphetamines. Amphetamines can cause slow onset depression after long-term use, though.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

n1kkuh said:


> I've heard rumors that chelated magnesium is good for while taking amphetamines. I'd also add a mix of different antioxidants to take daily for good measure l-cystine mostly. ANd I also heard that l-tyrosine and DLPA is good to take with it too for when it wears off.


I take 400mg of magnesium glycinate (chelated) with every Adderall dose. Thanks for the other suggestions, I'll look into them.



Jrock said:


> And what about when the bad finally arrives?


I doubt it will since I only take fairly low doses PRN, and I won't be using it several times a week after a year or two from now. Many ADHD patients on the other hand are prescribed 90mg Adderall daily and take it for several years, some for even a large portion of their lives.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

*Mission:*
Job interview. Ignore urges to avoid situation and try to keep awkwardness to a minimum.

*Arsenal:*
500mg Adderall XR, ~300mg clonazepam

*Weapons chosen:*
40mg Addy, 2mg clonazepam

Time to face this thing head on! Will report back soon to let you guys know if the Adderall was able to keep me from falling flat on my face.

:afr


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

good luck!


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks Heather! 

It went pretty well, besides a few minor faux pas' but that was to be expected (stuttered a few times, forgot what I was saying mid-sentence... I blame the Klonopin ). Overall though I felt pretty confident and SA free, and wasn't even nervous - I think I also gave them the answers they wanted to hear so despite not handling the situation perfectly I think this ended up a huge success when compared to how I was a few years ago. Last night I was seriously considering just blowing it off and not showing up, so the fact that I actually went today without even thinking twice about it is a huge step forward for me.

I'm going to be adding 1mg rasagiline (equal to ~10mg selegiline) to the mix soon to keep dopaminergic neurotransmission more consistent. Amphetamine is just too up and down - one day I'm completely SA-free and euphoric which injects life into my personality, and the next I'm the most avoidant, socially-retarded depressed loser on the planet. There's also many other benefits, such as potentiating/extending the length of effects while requiring a lower dose, as well as blocking amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity. Can't wait to start on this combo. 

Memantine is another possible addition. An NMDA receptor antagonist that works around the clock should make magnesium glycinate obsolete, because if my memory serves me right then magnesium's NMDA receptor modulation lasts for only a few hours after ingestion.

I'm loving this so far, looks like my life might actually be starting up soon! College, job, driver's license, SA meetups here I come!

Heh, I'm going to be reading this post tomorrow and wondering how the hell I could be so optimistic about my future while thinking about how I surely could never handle such situations in my lifetime. Oh, the irrational thoughts and low self-esteem caused by dopamine depletion... :roll. 

I'll now proceed to enjoy this ebullience while it lasts.


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

That's nifty. Congrats. Please be careful with combining MAOIs with amphetamines.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

korey said:


> That's nifty. Congrats.


Thanks. 



korey said:


> Please be careful with combining MAOIs with amphetamines.


Rasagiline is a selective MAO-B inhibitor, so it's much safer to combine sympathomimetic drugs with those than the unselective MAOIs since MAO-A is responsible for the deamination of norepinephrine. It's still dangerous to combine high doses of amphetamines with MAO-B inhibitors as excessive dopamine levels can result in a hypertensive reaction as well, so I'll be using the lowest available dose of rasagiline and combining it with just 5mg Adderall IR to start off with. I have a blood pressure monitor so I'll be able to titrate upwards until I find an ideal dose that poses little cardiovascular risk.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Update - Interview part deux:

So I got a call for a second interview yesterday from the same employer. I took 30mg XR before I went this morning and it didn't seem to help much, if at all. I got the job though, and my feelings about it are rapidly switching back and forth from excitement to terror. 

This upcoming week will show me if Adderall can suppress my SA to a tolerable level, or if I'm doomed for the rest of my life. Well, maybe not for the rest of my life if I can end up getting my hands on GHB.


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## RockiNToM (Jun 15, 2009)

Can I just ask what the difference is between Ritalin and Adderall and if there is any benefit with one in particular over the other?


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## soaringfalcon11 (Jun 7, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> Update - Interview part deux:
> 
> So I got a call for a second interview yesterday from the same employer. I took 30mg XR before I went this morning and it didn't seem to help much, if at all. I got the job though, and my feelings about it are rapidly switching back and forth from excitement to terror.
> 
> This upcoming week will show me if Adderall can suppress my SA to a tolerable level, or if I'm doomed for the rest of my life. Well, maybe not for the rest of my life if I can end up getting my hands on GHB.


Just curious. You don't go to college, you don't go to school, you don't have a job - what do you?

Good luck, by the way. Just remember that the brain is more powerful than any drug. You must find a way to consciously change your thoughts. I am working on doing this right now. It's like self-administered CBT...and it's working. The person you want to be IS inside you, you just have to exert yourself, put yourself though hell, to find it.

So does Klonopin work for you?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

RockiNToM said:


> Can I just ask what the difference is between Ritalin and Adderall and if there is any benefit with one in particular over the other?


Ritalin is a NDRI, and Adderall (along with all other amphetamines) are releasing agents. Instead of de-activating the reuptake pumps located on the neuron like Ritalin does, amphetamines are taken into the neuron and cause stored monoamine neurotransmitters to exit the neuron through the same reuptake protein that Ritalin inhibits.

I haven't tried methylphenidate, but from what I've read most people prefer amphetamines. Supposedly Ritalin is less smooth, and more anxiogenic or likely to induce jitteriness. This leads me to believe Ritalin has a higher NA to DA selectivity ratio than amphetamine.



soaringfalcon11 said:


> Just curious. You don't go to college, you don't go to school, you don't have a job - what do you?


Lol, you sound like the people I talk to that don't have SA. The answer of course, is stay in my house doing nothing but waste my life away.



> Good luck, by the way. Just remember that the brain is more powerful than any drug. You must find a way to consciously change your thoughts. I am working on doing this right now. It's like self-administered CBT...and it's working. The person you want to be IS inside you, you just have to exert yourself, put yourself though hell, to find it.


I agree that anyone can be sociable and anxiety-free, but "unlocking" that side can sometimes be impossible depending on the person's biological makeup. Drugs however, can act as the "key", allowing one to experience emotional states that can't simply be brought on by any type of therapy.

People that experience less extreme forms of social phobia (the majority), can "fix" themselves by putting in some effort... whether it's through CBT, exposure therapy, or another method. Ultimately, both fix the disorder through the same mechanism - changes in neurotransmission.



> So does Klonopin work for you?


It does work as an anxiolytic. I however have a predisposition to social awkwardness and introversion to the point where I can rarely even talk with someone. I have no urge to speak or share anything with anyone besides certain interests of mine, and long pharmacology rants aren't a practical way of socializing. Being self-aware of this is what causes my social anxiety.


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## soaringfalcon11 (Jun 7, 2009)

Maybe you could try therapy with psychedelic drugs like they did in the '60s. 

I do LSD and find that it has calmed my anxiety by showing me a different plane of reality.

The best way to score acid is to go to a music festival. You'll find it if you look, just make sure it's legit..lots of fake stuff out there.

Just a thought.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

LSD to cure social anxiety!?!?!?!?!?!?!wow, that sounds like a disaster in the making...

i think the adderal/valium combo works great, i have taken it several times and its like night and day difference...still though, i dont see it being the solution to the problem, i dont know what is...the more i read the more i understand you cannot cure introversion....


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## Jrock (Dec 16, 2008)

belfort said:


> the more i read the more i understand you cannot cure introversion....


Are you suggesting that introversion is the problem?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

soaringfalcon11 said:


> Maybe you could try therapy with psychedelic drugs like they did in the '60s.
> 
> I do LSD and find that it has calmed my anxiety by showing me a different plane of reality.
> 
> ...


I don't know if it would have an impact whenever the afterglow faded, though I sure wouldn't mind giving it a try if I had a legit source.

As for other single-dose therapeutic tools, I might be trying MDMA later this month. I hope that its ability to induce such a profound increase in sociability and empathy will have a lasting impact.



belfort said:


> i think the adderal/valium combo works great, i have taken it several times and its like night and day difference...still though, i dont see it being the solution to the problem, i dont know what is...the more i read the more i understand you cannot cure introversion....


I'm beginning to lose hope too (at least with the medications that have already been synthesized), but there is a way to effectively treat any psychological disorder for an entire lifetime through medication. However, more research and development in the field of psychotropics will be required in order to discover a chemical compound, or combination of compounds, that can achieve this Utopia.


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## Jrock (Dec 16, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> I
> 
> I'm beginning to lose hope too (at least with the medications that have already been synthesized), but there is a way to effectively treat any psychological disorder for an entire lifetime through medication. However, more research and development in the field of psychotropics will be required in order to discover a chemical compound, or combination of compounds, that can achieve this Utopia.


The sad reality is most of us will be either dead or too old to reap some of the benefits.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

illusional fate-you are young so dont lose hope..you have alot of time to experiment with what works...u might just find the right cocktail before its too late...whereas me, jrock and a few others, theres only a few more innings left and we are down by 8 runs with the bottom half of our lineup up to bat...lol...

krock-where ya at??i cant send you any Pms..?


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Wow, this thread needs to make like Ted Kennedy and die...


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## soaringfalcon11 (Jun 7, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Wow, this thread needs to make like Ted Kennedy and die...


first, a little respect for the dead, please.

second, if you don't like it, don't read it!


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

db0255 said:


> Wow, this thread needs to make like Ted Kennedy and die...


Well, maybe if you hadn't bumped it then it would have. Did that ever cross your mind?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> Thanks Heather!
> 
> It went pretty well, besides a few minor faux pas' but that was to be expected (stuttered a few times, forgot what I was saying mid-sentence... I blame the Klonopin ). Overall though I felt pretty confident and SA free, and wasn't even nervous - I think I also gave them the answers they wanted to hear so despite not handling the situation perfectly I think this ended up a huge success when compared to how I was a few years ago. Last night I was seriously considering just blowing it off and not showing up, so the fact that I actually went today without even thinking twice about it is a huge step forward for me.
> 
> ...


Grats to your successful job interview.  May I ask why you decide to take the expensive Rasagiline instead of the cheap Selegiline. As you are already taking Amphetamine the reason can't be that with Rasagiline one will pass a drug test whereas with Selegiline it might me positive (you also do have a valid prescription for your drugs). Also consider the cheap AMPA/NMDA-antagonist Caroverine instead of Memantine (taking both together will probably give the strongest anti-glutamatergic action).



> Well, maybe not for the rest of my life if I can end up getting my hands on GHB.


GHB/GBL should IMHO just be used as needed as they can cause strong physical dependence pretty fast if several doses are taken daily for a longer period of time.

Please forget about LSD and Ecstasy, I doubt they will give you positive long-term results, but could make things worse.

From what I've read when it's about potentiating stimulants with low dose Selegiline then Ritalin is the better choice than Amphetamine.


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## oity (Jan 16, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Wow, this thread needs to make like Ted Kennedy and die...


Why? This thread has 2000+ views for a reason. A lot of people (including me) are interested in seeing whether and how adderall works. Anyways, good luck with the new job Illusion.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Medline said:


> Grats to your successful job interview.  May I ask why you decide to take the expensive Rasagiline instead of the cheap Selegiline. As you are already taking Amphetamine the reason can't be that with Rasagiline one will pass a drug test whereas with Selegiline it might me positive (you also do have a valid prescription for your drugs). Also consider the cheap AMPA/NMDA-antagonist Caroverine instead of Memantine (taking both together will probably give the strongest anti-glutamatergic action).


I wanted rasagiline over selegiline, since "Amphetamine-induced increase in striatal extracellular dopamine level was attenuated by one day and by chronic (21 days) treatment with selegiline (0.25 mg kg(-1), s.c.)." [link]

Also, I'd prefer not to experience a release of noradrenaline every time I dose selegiline, but that should be minor due to the low amount of l-amp/l-methamp metabolites. After looking up prices though, there is NO WAY I'm spending the extra cash on rasagiline for a combo that may or may not actually potentiate Adderall.

Thanks for the Caroverine suggestion, I'll look into that. I'm still not sure whether I should add an NMDA-antagonist to the mix yet as it hasn't been proven that this really does inhibit the development of amphetamine tolerance.



> GHB/GBL should IMHO just be used as needed as they can cause strong physical dependence pretty fast if several doses are taken daily for a longer period of time.


I would take it 1-4 days per week. I'm aware of the risk of physical dependence, but I'm running out of options.



> Please forget about LSD and Ecstasy, I doubt they will give you positive long-term results, but could make things worse.


I doubt they would make things worse unless the user is in the wrong state of mind to handle a psychedelic. I'm only taking MDMA for recreational purposes though, I don't expect it to improve my SA in the longterm.



> From what I've read when it's about potentiating stimulants with low dose Selegiline then Ritalin is the better choice than Amphetamine.


I'd like to compare both, but I only have a script for Adderall. I've heard the same thing though, I wonder why that is... you'd think MAO-B being disabled would allow amphetamine to dump much more dopamine into the synapse.



oity said:


> Why? This thread has 2000+ views for a reason. A lot of people (including me) are interested in seeing whether and how adderall works. Anyways, good luck with the new job Illusion.


Now I regret posting about getting the job. :| I was optimistic at the time being on Adderall, then after taking a break from it the days before my first day, I knew I wouldn't be able to handle the position. Amphetamine is too up and down to be able to successfully treat social phobia consistently. At least Adderall will allow me to look for other jobs though, so I could care less that I passed up on this opportunity.


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## Thomas Ninja (Sep 18, 2009)

I've tried adderall a few times in the past and I must say it worked wonders for me. I took it (20mg) during finals week and aced all my tests. and i was speaking up in class and making everyone laugh. i even talked to this random babe that i'd been trying to talk to for some time. I felt like superman.......until it stated to wear off. I HATE when it wears off. I felt like my heart was beating a mile a minute and I felt like it was going to pop out of my chest. No fun.
But with that said, I would love to try it again becuase the good outweighed the bad, and it did cure my avoidance. Whats the best way to go about getting it? how should i approach my doc. i do believe i have adhd (problems focusing) and SA. I am hoping that mentioning SA doesnt hurt my chances of scoring adderall.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> Amphetamine is too up and down to be able to successfully treat social phobia consistently.


Egg-xactly, I have been saying this for a long *** time to people new to adderall. Frankly I didn't post it in here because I know how when you first start it you think its the miracle cure and you will blow off anyone that tells you different. I did the same thing. Its pretty impressive you were able to arrive at that perfect explanation (in that one sentence) in such a short time of why adderall is really not as near an effective treatment for anxiety or social phobia as most people think when they first start. Took me like 6 years to figure that out, or at least to openly admit it. You think at first 'wow, I'm cured' but while the 'high' of adderal definitely helps social anxiety, I have found that it alienates me from people and friends even more in the long run because of the severe lows. Its like you would love to make friends if you could always be 'up' but for me at least I fear I almost fear having friends even more because I know when I am 'down' I am going to be snappy, depressed and people are generally just going to wonder what the hell is wrong with me all the time. Basically an even more consistent danger of social rejection becomes a reality because while its maybe easier to make friends while 'up' when down your friends are all going to wonder what the hell is the matter with you because your emotions are so unpredictable. Thats how it is for me anyway. Constantly dosing it in order to avoid the come down makes you a jittery wreck of an emotional roller coaster. I still take it though because it at least allows me to be functional in terms of the need for focus but its not an effective monotherapy med despite how positive I was about the 'fact' that it was all I needed at first.

Don't get down on yourself about any job, you can do whatever you try. Every job is crazy stressful and will make you feel hopelessly overwhelmed at first, a month or two in, its like tying your shoes (albeit still stressful) just not so overwhelming. Unless you work with jerks of course.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

KurtG85 said:


> Egg-xactly, I have been saying this for a long *** time to people new to adderall. Frankly I didn't post it in here because I know how when you first start it you think its the miracle cure and you will blow off anyone that tells you different. I did the same thing. Its pretty impressive you were able to arrive at that perfect explanation (in that one sentence) in such a short time of why adderall is really not as near an effective treatment for anxiety or social phobia as most people think when they first start.


i agree with that and your post. i think it can be used safely for the user but the problem is that many who start taking it for SA don't know how it will affect them in that way and might not realize that if they exactly monitor what it is doing to them and what the possible long-term effects it will have on their SA, their avoidance, their mood, their body, etc., then it can have detrimental effects. that is something i worry about when i see people who start taking it suddenly when they hear how it can supposedly cure their social anxiety. in IllusionalFate's case it seems he knew a lot about it before taking it and probably has somewhat of a grasp on what it is doing to him which is good. i mostly started buying it from a "friend" (ha) for its effectiveness with helping my concentration and attention problems and i even think that was the greatest effect on me since it was such a major problem in my life. that "friend" did however preach that it's a cure and was either blind to its possible negative effects or purposely left them (i think i know the answer...). i think it took me a few months to really assess what it will do to my SA and my body and have tried the best i can to avoid falling into the trap of constantly relying on it to treat that despite how it might **** up my body. i still am prescribed 20mg (XR) for inattentive ADD and i can't even describe how amazing it is to get some relief for those problems.

i think in the beginning i had already been in the process of making progress with my SA but adderall still helped my confidence quite a bit in giving me more of a kick (?) in gaining enough confidence to get out there. i actually still think that exposure and practice has helped me a ton and enough and that period of having to deal with the really bad come downs and how it messed with my body were worth it. i don't feel the speedy effects i felt in the beginning all that much and i feel almost the same as i did before except that i am generally better at socializing and my confidence has gone up considerably. i find even when i happen to take it later in the day or if i take it early and i know it fades away much later, those times of the day when it's not that much in my system my SA is still pretty good (assuming my health otherwise is okay).

i also think that being aware of how it affected my physical health has helped a lot (i haven't taken the magnesium in the past week or two since i've run out and forgot to get more but i'd usually take it every day). in the beginning i barely ate and i thought it was great at first since i would enjoy that but within a couple months it really began to **** with my body and mind in certain ways, but i just began trying to get as many nutrients as possible by taking vitamins and supplements, and having protein drinks and eventually i went back to normal.

however today for the first time in ages i'm feeling that adderall crash, just very depressed and weak, but its because yesterday i had thought i missed my dose in the morning so later on my way to the SAS gathering i took what i had in my bag which was about 15-20mg.. later when i began to get agitated, energetic and hyper (didn't really affect my SA too much but the environment of the place made it difficult to talk) with a complete loss of appetite i realized i had taken my normal dose in the morning too.. hah, oops. i barely slept at all last night/this morning. at least i don't have anything important to get done today so just going to work and feeling like **** should be relatively tolerable. this is pretty much that exact feeling i'd get almost every or every other weekend for a few months, on sundays, when i'd crash from taking it on the friday and/or saturday night.

jeez this is a long post which may or may not be adderall induce haha :b. i usually don't go on rants this much these days which is better.

KurtG85 do you think you can fill me in on how much you would take and how your health otherwise was doing while you were on it? thanks


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

The "up and down" thing would turn into "up and normal" if you were on selegiline (though to anyone reading this, dose needs to be MAJORLY lowered).

Why do some of you use mixed amphetamines (Adderall) and not pure D-amphetamine? Is it just your doctors refusing D-amp? L-amphetamine is worse than useless for SA.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

nothing to fear said:


> i agree with that and your post. i think it can be used safely for the user....
> 
> KurtG85 do you think you can fill me in on how much you would take and how your health otherwise was doing while you were on it? thanks


I understand, most all of my posts are adderall induced rants. My dose having worn off I can probably make this a pretty short response now, lol.

The main concern with adderall I was expressing and agreeing with illusional over is not so much general health issues (if thats the impression you got from my post). I haven't seen any convincing evidence that adderall messes with your health in that poor of a way unless of course you are one of those people that find they can't help but starving themselves while on it.

My main concern (and first hand experience with adderall) relates more to its potential to superficially mask other emotional issues (which are probably more root causes of social anxiety). Adderall can put the user on a constant emotional roller coaster which can make the road to improvement even more difficult (or even leads to worse forms of mental illness). However even if decreased general functionality may be obvious to the user they may remain 'hooked' on the temporary euphoria adderall gives despite the increased anxiety, depression (during the crash), psychotic-like symptoms, OCD etc. which adderall MAY exacerbate or introduce in some users. In other words, while it may help someone's social anxiety, in general it may reduce their over-all functionality. It may also prevent many people from getting the help from OTHER meds they may really need because they expect all meds to have the same crazy confidence boosting effects of adderall when in fact what they may need in order to be emotionally 'normal' and functional in life is to chill the hell out with a mood stabilizer or anti depressant or whatever, not to be jacked up on norepinephrene and dopamine. No med is likely going to compare with the 'high' adderall gives them and so they just think all these other meds 'suck' when sometimes it really isn't about making someone feel as insanely good as possible in order to keep them functional, alive and making sure they don't kill anybody else.

The period of amphetamine euphoria (naturally followed by a crash) one receives from adderall can convince the user (especially younger ones) that adderall is obliterating these other emotional issues when in fact its just a temporary rush followed by depleted neurotransmitters and an even more unbalanced mind until the brain can re-balance itself. It took me about 10 years to realize that I was in fact experiencing this temporary mild euphoria despite my assumption that I wasn't. After all, how the hell is anyone supposed to know what EXACTLY 'euphoria' feels like anyway? Plus this is often used as a negative term commonly to be associated with illegal drug use so people are naturally going to vehemently deny to themself and others that they are feeling euphoria. Anyway, these are just some of my opinions based on my personal experience. I don't think this same type of scenario goes down for everyone on adderall, I just think those with major depression, anxiety or SAD are particularly at risk for this happening with adderall.

Other than the negative impact on certain emotions of mine which I think I went over, I don't really notice any negative effects on my health. The closest thing I could say is that I tend to not be nearly as athletic while on adderall but I mainly relate that to a reduction in testosterone. Then of course there is the severe reduction in libido and 'ability' adderall has on me and many guys if you want to count that as 'physical health'. Maybe I didn't mention but I still take adderall. 5 mg instant release Barr manufactured every 4-5 hours. Anymore than 5 and I am un-tolerably aloof and irritable. Any less and I can't stay on task for more than 15 seconds.

PS- Nope, looks like I just have a natural tendency to rant while on adderall or not, heh heh.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

euphoria said:


> The "up and down" thing would turn into "up and normal" if you were on selegiline (though to anyone reading this, dose needs to be MAJORLY lowered).


I believe you are a bit over confident there in presuming how exactly 'perfectly' that would work out but ya, I have been trying to get a doc to prescribe me Selegiline for many years. Finding a doc to prescribe me both selegiline and a stimulant? Good luck... me. I have tried, but it would be a lot easier if we didn't live in a society where someone can make bank by spilling hot coffee on their own genitals. In other words, docs understandably have to majorly cover their asses thanks to our idiotic laws.



euphoria said:


> Why do some of you use mixed amphetamines (Adderall) and not pure D-amphetamine? Is it just your doctors refusing D-amp? L-amphetamine is worse than useless for SA.


No offense, I don't know what orifice you pulled that one out of but, no, dex does nothing for my social anxiety. Adderall helps tremendously. I guarantee you will find thousands of others who say the same thing, and the reverse of course.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

KurtG85 said:


> I believe you are a bit over confident there in presuming how exactly 'perfectly' that would work out but ya, I have been trying to get a doc to prescribe me Selegiline for many years. Finding a doc to prescribe me both selegiline and a stimulant? Good luck... me. I have tried, but it would be a lot easier if we didn't live in a society where someone can make bank by spilling hot coffee on their own genitals.


You're not really supposed to mix MAOIs and amphetamines, it's not a surprise that you can't find a doc who will prescribe both. But selegiline metabolizes in your body to both amphetamine and methamphetamine. I think what euphoria was getting at is that the drug by itself does everything you want.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I will soon try Selegiline (5mg) + low dose Ritalin (I will start at 2.5mg and if necessary move up with the dose carefully). The other two drugs will be Clonazepam 4mg as needed and the combined alpha/beta-blocker Carvedilol (12.5mg bid). I have Haldol at hand if something should go wrong which I don't really expect.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I have always known you as a smart guy, but for legal reasons I probably have to tell you: Don't do that. Nevertheless in the end we both know we will do stuff like that. They say there is no shortcut to happiness... and I believe that - really... find a girl, settle down and if you want you can marry... but if my dopamine system is fu***ed up, I won't sit still and accept that... some of my 'psychopharmacological experiments' in the past have to be considered 'unsafe' and there were times were I could have died, but I didn't. I want to live one time and one time only, but not as an anxious person, I wanna feel pain, love, happiness. And if something like 'god' exists... I will. I don't give a damn if I die at age 32 or 96... all that matters for me is that I found what I have been looking for...


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

Medline said:


> I have always known you as a smart guy, but for legal reasons I probably have to tell you: Don't do that. Nevertheless in the end we both know we will do stuff like that. They say there is no shortcut to happiness... and I believe that - really... find a girl, settle down and if you want you can marry... but if my dopamine system is fu***ed up, I won't sit still and accept that... some of my 'psychopharmacological experiments' in the past have to be considered 'unsafe' and there were times were I could have died, but I didn't. I want to live one time and one time only, but not as an anxious person, I wanna feel pain, love, happiness. And if something like 'god' exists... I will. I don't give a damn if I die at age 32 or 96... all that matters for me is that I found what I have been looking for...


Who you talking to medline? 
Well stated by the way. I have said the near exact same thing to family members and others who ask why I persist so much with medications. I would feel no regret if I found out tommorow that all my experimentation with prescription drugs was going to kill me in a week. I wouldn't have lived this long without them to begin nor would I have experienced many of the pleasures of life I thought were impossible for me to feel/experience due to my issues.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

brilliant post medline...i share the same thoughts...


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Medline said:


> I have always known you as a smart guy, but for legal reasons I probably have to tell you: Don't do that. Nevertheless in the end we both know we will do stuff like that. They say there is no shortcut to happiness... and I believe that - really... find a girl, settle down and if you want you can marry... but if my dopamine system is fu***ed up, I won't sit still and accept that... some of my 'psychopharmacological experiments' in the past have to be considered 'unsafe' and there were times were I could have died, but I didn't. I want to live one time and one time only, but not as an anxious person, I wanna feel pain, love, happiness. And if something like 'god' exists... I will. I don't give a damn if I die at age 32 or 96... all that matters for me is that I found what I have been looking for...


I agree, no one has the right to tell you not to take or do what makes you happy in life. Afterall it's your life. Latly I feel the same, I've been getting so warn down with chronic moderatly severe depression/SA, and feeling no pleasure in life, and a pit of hopelesness, that I feel like it's worth taking some risks, if that could help find something that gives me some form of happiness and enjoyment in life, coz otherwise, whats the point? you know. Carpe diem.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

KurtG85 said:


> Egg-xactly, I have been saying this for a long *** time to people new to adderall. Frankly I didn't post it in here because I know how when you first start it you think its the miracle cure and you will blow off anyone that tells you different. I did the same thing. Its pretty impressive you were able to arrive at that perfect explanation (in that one sentence) in such a short time of why adderall is really not as near an effective treatment for anxiety or social phobia as most people think when they first start. Took me like 6 years to figure that out, or at least to openly admit it. You think at first 'wow, I'm cured' but while the 'high' of adderal definitely helps social anxiety, I have found that it alienates me from people and friends even more in the long run because of the severe lows. Its like you would love to make friends if you could always be 'up' but for me at least I fear I almost fear having friends even more because I know when I am 'down' I am going to be snappy, depressed and people are generally just going to wonder what the hell is wrong with me all the time. Basically an even more consistent danger of social rejection becomes a reality because while its maybe easier to make friends while 'up' when down your friends are all going to wonder what the hell is the matter with you because your emotions are so unpredictable. Thats how it is for me anyway. Constantly dosing it in order to avoid the come down makes you a jittery wreck of an emotional roller coaster. I still take it though because it at least allows me to be functional in terms of the need for focus but its not an effective monotherapy med despite how positive I was about the 'fact' that it was all I needed at first.


Perhaps what I said about Adderall being "up and down" was a bit misleading. I don't doubt that it does tend to make people worse for a period of time after that "high" wears off, and you describe what happens to many people who use stimulants often very well. However, in my particular case, my dopamine levels are already in the "down" stage through how I'm made up biologically as opposed to the effects any meds have had on me. I was more trying to get at how Adderall has the ability to make the user feel on top of the world, fearless, and completely cured for a few hours, then once baseline hits reality rears its ugly head again. I'm the person I want to be while speeding, but reverting back to a lifeless, boring zombie after experiencing an ideal psychological state can be too depressing and confusing.



> Don't get down on yourself about any job, you can do whatever you try. Every job is crazy stressful and will make you feel hopelessly overwhelmed at first, a month or two in, its like tying your shoes (albeit still stressful) just not so overwhelming. Unless you work with jerks of course.


You know what, I probably would've been able to handle that job if I had just taken an Adderall dose on the first day I had to go in for work. At least looking at the bright side, I know now that in just 90 minutes I can go from being extremely avoidant to excited and prepared to face any social situation.



nothing to fear said:


> i think in the beginning i had already been in the process of making progress with my SA but adderall still helped my confidence quite a bit in giving me more of a kick (?) in gaining enough confidence to get out there. i actually still think that exposure and practice has helped me a ton and enough and that period of having to deal with the really bad come downs and how it messed with my body were worth it. i don't feel the speedy effects i felt in the beginning all that much and i feel almost the same as i did before except that i am generally better at socializing and my confidence has gone up considerably. i find even when i happen to take it later in the day or if i take it early and i know it fades away much later, those times of the day when it's not that much in my system my SA is still pretty good (assuming my health otherwise is okay).


That's great to hear that tolerance still hasn't gotten in the way of Adderall being effective for your SA. Maybe even despite the fact that tolerance builds so quickly to the superhuman/recreational effects, it can still be enough to provide that sociability/confidence kick. Using it for awhile may help "teach" me over time that I can face occasions that I otherwise thought I'd fail at, or that I can access that sociable frame of mind even without the drug. Time will tell.



euphoria said:


> Why do some of you use mixed amphetamines (Adderall) and not pure D-amphetamine? Is it just your doctors refusing D-amp? L-amphetamine is worse than useless for SA.


I heard that in certain areas of the brain norepinephrine transporters are used to transport dopamine when DATs are scarce or absent. If that's true, then theoretically dopaminergic transmission may be enhanced with a racemic mixture. Though it would seem that d-amphetamine having four times the binding affinity for the NET over the DAT would be plenty sufficient. Nevertheless, I'm going to ask my pdoc if he'd be willing to give pure dextroamphetamine a try when it comes time for him to write my next script for Adderall and hopefully will get the chance to compare the two.



KurtG85 said:


> Other than the negative impact on certain emotions of mine which I think I went over, I don't really notice any negative effects on my health. The closest thing I could say is that I tend to not be nearly as athletic while on adderall but I mainly relate that to a reduction in testosterone. Then of course there is the severe reduction in libido and 'ability' adderall has on me and many guys if you want to count that as 'physical health'.


That's odd, I would think the boost of energy Adderall provides would improve athletic performance.

I've noticed a reduction in libido and ability on it as well, which doesn't make sense considering dopamine is pro-sexual. I wonder what the explanation for that is. :sus



meyaj said:


> You're not really supposed to mix MAOIs and amphetamines, it's not a surprise that you can't find a doc who will prescribe both. But selegiline metabolizes in your body to both amphetamine and methamphetamine. I think what euphoria was getting at is that the drug by itself does everything you want.


I asked my pdoc if he'd be willing to give me an Rx for a selective MAO-B inhibitor (I'm talking about 5mg selegiline/1mg rasagiline doses here, so selectivity wouldn't be a concern) and he was surprised I wanted to try such a "dangerous combination". Clearly many, if not most, psychiatrists are unaware of the distinction between a selective and nonselective MAO inhibitor.

Selegiline's metabolites are desmethylselegiline, l-amphetamine, and l-methamphetamine. The levoratory isomers of amphetamine make it an extremely weak dopamine releasing agent, but disabling the enzyme that deaminates dopamine should make it an excellent medication to augment with d-amphetamine.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> That's odd, I would think the boost of energy Adderall provides would improve athletic performance.
> 
> I've noticed a reduction in libido and ability on it as well, which doesn't make sense considering dopamine is pro-sexual. I wonder what the explanation for that is.


As for ability it is a vasoconstrictor which draws blood towards the heart, hence denying blood to the extremeties such as the hands, feet and the johnson. As for libido, I believe that would be its effect on lowering testosterone, which far trumps any sexual boosting effects dopamine might have. Of course everyones chemistry is a bit different so people react differently.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> I heard that in certain areas of the brain norepinephrine transporters are used to transport dopamine when DATs are scarce or absent.


Thats correct, Since dopamine is inactivated by norepinephrine reuptake in the frontal cortex, which largely lacks dopamine transporters, NRI's can increase dopamine neurotransmission in this part of the brain.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

KurtG85 said:


> No offense, I don't know what orifice you pulled that one out of but, no, dex does nothing for my social anxiety. Adderall helps tremendously. I guarantee you will find thousands of others who say the same thing, and the reverse of course.


I'm just trying to figure out what it is that makes Adderall better than dex for some SAers. L-amphetamine administered on its own is considered very anxiogenic and lacking in reward/antidepressant effects in relation to its dextro counterpart, and a very bad idea for anxiety disorders. That's not to say it doesn't add something positive to the overall amphetamine mix though.


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## Ian231 (Sep 17, 2009)

Keep us updated, I'm supposed to start taking Adderall next month.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

euphoria said:


> I'm just trying to figure out what it is that makes Adderall better than dex for some SAers. L-amphetamine administered on its own is considered very anxiogenic and lacking in reward/antidepressant effects in relation to its dextro counterpart, and a very bad idea for anxiety disorders. That's not to say it doesn't add something positive to the overall amphetamine mix though.


Yah, apparently it does something positive. Dex doesn't give me anywhere near the amount of energy and anti-depressant effect that adderall does. Adderall does make my anxiety worse overall though, despite the fact that I care so much less about my anxiety being so high while on adderall; but the raised anxiety still very much interferes with my functioning.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

I took 20mg XR earlier and damn, I went from feeling suicidal and hopeless to euphoric and extremely optimistic about my future. Another 10mg (IR) went down the hatch a couple hours ago and I am loving life so ****ing much.

I'm going to try this stuff on a more frequent basis now, because not only does it not need to be THIS efficacious in treating my social phobia for me to be temporarily cured, but I have plenty of room to increase my dose if need be. Let's see how long this magic can go on for!

Btw, Ritalin sucks in comparison. What a worthless drug.


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## soaringfalcon11 (Jun 7, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> I took 20mg XR earlier and damn, I went from feeling suicidal and hopeless to euphoric and extremely optimistic about my future. Another 10mg (IR) went down the hatch a couple hours ago and I am loving life so ****ing much.
> 
> I'm going to try this stuff on a more frequent basis now, because not only does it not need to be THIS efficacious in treating my social phobia for me to be temporarily cured, but I have plenty of room to increase my dose if need be. Let's see how long this magic can go on for!
> 
> Btw, Ritalin sucks in comparison. What a worthless drug.


So are you prescribed both IR and XR Adderall? Or do you crush the XR and snort 'em? I've done two-day Adderall snorting binges that have made me never want to do drugs again, any drug. And I agree, Ritalin sucks compared to Addy, but it still produces euphoria for me.

It sounds like you're just getting high via dopamine reuptake. From what I've heard, the high greatly diminishes with chronic use...from most reports I've read, the high wears within a month of consistent use. But you said you take something to block tolerance...should be interesting.

Me, I'm a fan of psychotherapy...it's cured my SA , which was once so severe I would spend my lunch period in a bathroom stall! I had the good forture of meeting a friend who always has enough LSD on him to dose an entire elementary school! The acid, seeing objects morph and hearing distorted sounds, made me realize that I just had to accept myself for who I was, instead of feeling like I always had to impress people.

Now I don't care if people like me, because I'm being myself, a good person, so therefore I'm a boon to society -- as people observe my good nature. If more people were like me, this world would be a much better place.

But the problem is that too many people are fearful (e.g., SA sufferers), and that fear leads to violence and rage; the origin of violence is fear. Free yourself from that fear and you're that much closer to the ultimate understanding.

I'd love to give you acid some time and act as your spiritual guide. I think we could produce some excellent results! If you're ever in Ohio, let me know!


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## John Smith (Jul 14, 2009)

euphoria said:


> The "up and down" thing would turn into "up and normal" if you were on selegiline (though to anyone reading this, dose needs to be MAJORLY lowered).
> 
> Why do some of you use mixed amphetamines (Adderall) and not pure D-amphetamine? Is it just your doctors refusing D-amp? L-amphetamine is worse than useless for SA.


Pretty sure selegiline actually blunts the effect of amphetamine. I've tried both at once and the dex seemed less effective.


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## John Smith (Jul 14, 2009)

By the way, dex seems extremely subtle for me. It's no miracle cure to anything, it's only a useful augmentation. I tried 20mg the first time I ever used it and it wasn't enough to have an effect.

I use 25mg each morning with an equal dose in the afternoon if necessary to treat my ADD.

It seems there is an effect ceiling for me, regardless of how much I consume. What does that say about my dopamine system?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

soaringfalcon11 said:


> So are you prescribed both IR and XR Adderall? Or do you crush the XR and snort 'em? I've done two-day Adderall snorting binges that have made me never want to do drugs again, any drug.


I'm prescribed both XR and IR, but I prefer being able to control dosing schedule myself so next time I see my pdoc I'm just going to ask for 10mg IR t.i.d.

And I've snorted a few pills in the past (not any uppers), but don't have any desire to do it again. I don't need any kind of rush, they're powerful enough taken orally and last much longer that way.



> It sounds like you're just getting high via dopamine reuptake. From what I've heard, the high greatly diminishes with chronic use...from most reports I've read, the high wears within a month of consistent use. But you said you take something to block tolerance...should be interesting.


I've heard the same, and have been taking it just 2-3 times a week on average to avoid tolerance getting in the way. But now it seems like if I just use it more often (not daily) that I'll be able to learn enough during that time to not need it as much. Adderall is a very effective therapeutic tool.

I take magnesium for tolerance, which I've read only modulates the NMDA receptors for a couple hours. Something longer lasting like DXM, ketamine, or memantine would probably be better at slowing down the formation of tolerance, but I'm not too concerned about it to bother with any of those compounds.



> But the problem is that too many people are fearful (e.g., SA sufferers), and that fear leads to violence and rage; the origin of violence is fear. Free yourself from that fear and you're that much closer to the ultimate understanding.


I have a very atypical case of SA. I'm not nearly as fearful as I used to be and I'm pretty confident I could get over that part with just a little more time. My main problem is having a lack of social drive. I enjoy social interaction, I want friends and relationships, but trying to socialize is pointless when I don't have that drive to converse that allows me to spontaneously come up with things to say. And changing my personality in the longterm to feel that intense drive to socialize is MUCH more difficult than getting over a phobia or anxiety disorder.



> I'd love to give you acid some time and act as your spiritual guide. I think we could produce some excellent results! If you're ever in Ohio, let me know!


I'm not optimistic enough that a psychedelic could produce a life-changing spiritual experience that would cure my SA, but I think LSD is definitely worth a try and has a better chance to ameliorate my condition than most other options out there. I just might take you up on that offer if I'm ever in Ohio. 



John Smith said:


> Pretty sure selegiline actually blunts the effect of amphetamine. I've tried both at once and the dex seemed less effective.


I've seen other claims of this, and also opposing claims of MAO-B inhibitors augmenting psychostimulants well (Ritalin and amphetamine - though some say only methylphenidate works in synergy with selegiline). Realizing the potential for such a cocktail and its several other additional benefits, I had to try it. First week of treatment (7.5mg selegiline/day) significantly attenuated most if not all of amphetamine's effects, but after that first week of selegiline I was able to combine the two with no amphetamine blunting. To be precise, the duration of action and mild vasopressor properties of Adderall remained unchanged with chronic selegiline coadministration.



John Smith said:


> By the way, dex seems extremely subtle for me. It's no miracle cure to anything, it's only a useful augmentation. I tried 20mg the first time I ever used it and it wasn't enough to have an effect.


Useful augmentation to treat what? I'm aware you take it for ADD, but does it help even minutely for anything else?



> I use 25mg each morning with an equal dose in the afternoon if necessary to treat my ADD.


Ahh, I think I see why you have the viewpoint of "It's no miracle cure to anything" now. Many people with ADD or ADHD respond with certain paradoxical effects to stimulants (ie. reduced hyperactivity, increased introversion).



> It seems there is an effect ceiling for me, regardless of how much I consume. What does that say about my dopamine system?


How much have you tried at once? And are you on any other meds/supplements?


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Man, this thread needs to make like Patrick Swayze and die. Seriously, though, this is a long thread. Congrats guys!


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

:con

Why does this thread need to die? The Medication board is overloaded with threads about antidepressants/anxiolytics/beta-blockers, so I think it's nice to have a different type of thread for a change.

Plus, maybe it will help the small percentage of people who have the same type of SA that I do realize there's a no-bull**** med out there to wipe out their symptoms, instead of wasting their time with all the useless crap on the market.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

It doesn't, but I made the same joke, only substituted with Ted Kennedy, like 100 posts ago. I got OWNED.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

"and changing my personality in the long term to feel that intense drive to socialize is MUCH more difficult than getting over a phobia or anxiety disorder"

is it even POSSIBLE to permanently change your personality so you have a much increased social drive??i dont think it is man..im 31 and ive overcome much of the SA problems but i stil have very little to no social drive...im tried many different things but nothing sticks or works to any significant degree...it is quite amazing how quickly stimulants can change my social drive but we al know how long term that change is .... i have had some very positive social experiences lately yet still i lack the social desire, i dont understand it, my family doesnt, my friends dont, crazy..


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

db0255 said:


> It doesn't, but I made the same joke, only substituted with Ted Kennedy, like 100 posts ago. I got OWNED.


I thought you were serious at first, and since we all know how poorly sarcasm translates over the internet, it came off rather troll-ish. We need a sarcasm smiley like this:











belfort said:


> "and changing my personality in the long term to feel that intense drive to socialize is MUCH more difficult than getting over a phobia or anxiety disorder"
> 
> is it even POSSIBLE to permanently change your personality so you have a much increased social drive??i dont think it is man..im 31 and ive overcome much of the SA problems but i stil have very little to no social drive...im tried many different things but nothing sticks or works to any significant degree...it is quite amazing how quickly stimulants can change my social drive but we al know how long term that change is .... i have had some very positive social experiences lately yet still i lack the social desire, i dont understand it, my family doesnt, my friends dont, crazy..


I'm not exactly confident that this rare and virtually unknown disorder can be beaten, unfortunately. But enough is ****ing enough, and now is the time for me to go all out on getting over this even if there isn't any hope. If Adderall gives out on me there's some research chemicals out there that have huge potential: MDAI, AMT, and indanylaminopropane to name a few.

Belfort, you and I are one of the few people out there stuck in this strange mess. I wish it was recognized as a legitimate disorder, but at least I now know I'm not the only one with it.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

^^its a bizarre disorder..i cant wrap my head around it..i see most people that seek out social interaction yet im the opposite..i know quite a few people with anxiety disorders yet they seek out social ineraction...i dunno..

btw i tried LSD when i was in high school..i dosed 5-6 times and i didnt experience anything remotely helpful in terms of finding my true inner self or increasing social drive or discovering infinite wisdom..i think thats just an excuse to use drugs to be honest..


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

oh and you and i arent the only ones with this strange affliction..only on the internet have i met people that are like this, no one in real life..lol..


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Are you talking about SA when you talk about something rare and unknown and not recognized as a legitimate disorder? I'm really confused.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

They are referring to people who get no or little social reward from socializing. To them it feels like work and is mentally draining. These people are wired to desire isolation over socialization. Yet, they "want" to be social people, they just can't. Knowing all this......Anxiety, depression, apathy become there bestest buds....

Alot of people feel anxiety is the cause of there SA. For people like Belfort and Illusionfate, it's a lack of social reward that causes anxiety which causes there SA



meyaj said:


> Are you talking about SA when you talk about something rare and unknown and not recognized as a legitimate disorder? I'm really confused.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

TiMeZuP said:


> They are referring to people who get no or little social reward from socializing. To them it feels like work and is mentally draining. These people are wired to desire isolation over socialization. Yet, they "want" to be social people, they just can't. Knowing all this......Anxiety, depression, apathy become there bestest buds....
> 
> Alot of people feel anxiety is the cause of there SA. For people like Belfort and Illusionfate, it's a lack of social reward that causes anxiety which causes there SA


Ah, I can relate. I don't really DESIRE isolation though. Like you said, I WANT to be able to function socially, although now that I think of it, that's really more long-term thinking when I take a step back and look at my life. In any given instance, given the choice between isolation and socializing, I'm pretty much always compelled to choose the former.

I recognize how unhealthy the isolation is for me, but even when a social opportunity presents itself, by the time it actually comes to do it I'm full of excuses because it just seems like a _chore_. There's nothing ever driving me to socialize, and I recognized from a fairly early point that something was messed up with my reward system. For me, it results in a lot of anticipatory anxiety and pessimism, but the social aspect is particularly disabling.

I thought that nowadays this was actually well-known to be implicated in social anxiety, at least in terms of the actual research being done. I've seen articles in well known journals linking low dopamine binding to SA. Psychiatrists working with a 15 year old diagnostic manual, however, might not be so up-to-date. I have no idea if this will be reflected in the DSM-V though, but a lot of doctors unfairly dismiss dopaminergic drugs because of the addiction potential before taking into account all of the evidence.

In fact, this was to my understanding (and in my experience), what social anxiety is. Perhaps I've been a bit myopic though.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

TiMeZuP said:


> They are referring to people who get no or little social reward from socializing. To them it feels like work and is mentally draining. These people are wired to desire isolation over socialization. Yet, they "want" to be social people, they just can't. Knowing all this......Anxiety, depression, apathy become there bestest buds....
> 
> Alot of people feel anxiety is the cause of there SA. For people like Belfort and Illusionfate, it's a lack of social reward that causes anxiety which causes there SA


Excellent description! Sure you don't have the same thing?


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> Excellent description! Sure you don't have the same thing?


Indeed I do as I described in this post and on.......

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...r-social-phobia-72862/index2.html#post1073610


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Prozac has been known to change personality, guys! From introverted and timid, to extraverted and socially rewarding/socially disinhibited. Just putting that out there.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

TiMeZuP said:


> They are referring to people who get no or little social reward from socializing. To them it feels like work and is mentally draining. These people are wired to desire isolation over socialization. Yet, they "want" to be social people, they just can't. Knowing all this......Anxiety, depression, apathy become there bestest buds....
> 
> Alot of people feel anxiety is the cause of there SA. For people like Belfort and Illusionfate, it's a lack of social reward that causes anxiety which causes there SA


Yep, i'm on the same team


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

and even positive social experiences(ones where i felt rewarded) dont reinforce desire to socialize again...so right there tells me cbt or other types of therapy would be useless...

prozac changing personality to that degree?/hmm, i know a few people that have been on it, they say it numbed them, hurt their sex drive.....they didnt mention anything about changing from introvert to extrovert..worth a try though...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

belfort said:


> and even positive social experiences(ones where i felt rewarded) dont reinforce desire to socialize again...so right there tells me cbt or other types of therapy would be useless...
> 
> prozac changing personality to that degree?/hmm, i know a few people that have been on it, they say it numbed them, hurt their sex drive.....they didnt mention anything about changing from introvert to extrovert..worth a try though...


Even exposing yourself to social situations doesnt work, you can do the same thing over and over again and the anxiety stays the same...


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

^^see, thats the thing, anxiety isnt even present in many of my social situations anymore, i feel more of a dullness, disinterest....sometimes i feel rewarded but most often not...that makes trying to gain any sort of social drive almost impossible...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

belfort said:


> ^^see, thats the thing, anxiety isnt even present in many of my social situations anymore, i feel more of a dullness, disinterest....sometimes i feel rewarded but most often not...that makes trying to gain any sort of social drive almost impossible...


I personally do feel unformfteble in social situations, but there arent any toughts like "what are ppl gonna think of met" etc.. Just a feeling of complete disintrest and wanting to get out. And sometimes a brainfog that comes up making you feel stoned.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

^^yep, that brainfog i go thru..it can be a conversation im kinda interested in but my mind starts to drift elsewhere.....ive been conversations in restaurants and then i can look out the window and start thinking of a million different things...i dunno why but it does...then that is where it takes literal EFFORT to stay in the conversation, u are almost counting the seconds to get out of the situation....it isnt anxiety, i dont know what to call it, social ahnedonia maybe??


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

oh and when it comes to combatting that brainfog or disinterest in conversations, i have found that even that stimulants dont help 100% when it comes to this...i have found actually that sometimes when im on adderall i get more 'daydreamy' but other times it helps..who knows why..


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

belfort said:


> ^^yep, that brainfog i go thru..it can be a conversation im kinda interested in but my mind starts to drift elsewhere.....ive been conversations in restaurants and then i can look out the window and start thinking of a million different things...i dunno why but it does...then that is where it takes literal EFFORT to stay in the conversation, u are almost counting the seconds to get out of the situation....it isnt anxiety, i dont know what to call it, social ahnedonia maybe??


Its just social anxiety purely caused by disregulation of some neurotransmitter, my drug use can confirm this as there are many drugs that make high (so i dont care about anything) but while on them i still want to get out of social interaction as fast as possible, so surely its not "tought based". I wouldnt call it social anhedonia as in my case i feel VERY uncomfortable in social situations.

If you have read my thread you would see that my treatment is a bit experimental, but imo amphetamine should work great for this type of anxiety. Benzo's are not the answer as they just relax you, but our types are allways "relaxed".


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

belfort said:


> oh and when it comes to combatting that brainfog or disinterest in conversations, i have found that even that stimulants dont help 100% when it comes to this...i have found actually that sometimes when im on adderall i get more 'daydreamy' but other times it helps..who knows why..


Hmm interesting, have you tried higher doses? Maybe dexedrine could work better.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

If dopamine is really a large factor in your SA, I imagine it's likely that you'd also have comorbid ADHD as I do, most likely predominately inattentive.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm coming to realise that treating the root of my problems, something that'd require a pure hedonic dopaminergic drug, is just not sustainable. Depression, anxiety, ADHD treatment can all be sustained relatively long-term, but it seems the brain has a particular aversion to prolonged pleasure and is very efficient at fighting it.

I would need something like a sustained (every day for years) initial d-amphetamine mood boost or 'high', and if you ask amph users they will tell you how hard it is to keep. That's bearing in mind that what'd get others high would just bring me to the normal hedonic level, I am not looking to be off my tits 24/7, and would only require a low dose. Perhaps tolerance isn't so much of a problem if these drugs are used sparingly, but I don't have part-time mental problems. Magnesium may work but somehow I don't think I'll be going back to overdosing on a metal.

My plan: accept my personality and live an unsocial life like before. Maybe the current meds will work, at least they should for anxiety & depression. They say "sometimes you have to remember who you were to figure out who you want to be".


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

I thought that for myself. And ADHD meds do help but there is too much focus and alertness involved with stims, I assume because of the norepinephrin increase. I am not saying the extra alertness and focus cause anxiety. I feel less anxiety on stims. But stims don't completly help people feel empathy and enjoyment of social interaction. So for me stims may make me focus more intensely; but on the wrong things..... I.E.. I will enjoy stairing out the window thinking/focusing more intensely



meyaj said:


> If dopamine is really a large factor in your SA I imagine it's likely that you'd also have comorbid ADHD as I do, most likely predominately inattentive.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

euphoria said:


> My plan: accept my personality and live an unsocial life like before. Maybe the current meds will work, at least they should for anxiety & depression. They say "sometimes you have to remember who you were to figure out who you want to be".


I've tried that plan many times. This plan has caused Me and Depression to go out on many dates. Depression and I have even hooked up a few times. Maybe acceptence will work for you but for me.....I just can't


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

TiMeZuP said:


> I thought that for myself. And ADHD meds do help but there is too much focus and alertness involved with stims, I assume because of the norepinephrin increase. I am not saying the extra alertness and focus cause anxiety. I feel less anxiety on stims. But stims don't completly help people feel empathy and enjoyment of social interaction. So for me stims may make me focus more intensely; but on the wrong things..... I.E.. I will enjoy stairing out the window thinking/focusing more intensely


I think with some of the drugs in the pipeline, like the cocaine-analogue phenyltropanes, will help a lot to tackle this. Good quality cocaine, an SNDRI, is pretty empathogenic, and the feeling is much more like MDMA than a traditional "stim." It's too short-acting right now, and somewhat cardiotoxic, but the analogues in development are working on solving that.

I very strongly feel that these drugs will be absolutely monumental for people like us. The motivation and focus of traditional stimulants without the usual accompanying emotional detachedness (in fact, the absolute opposite) seems very promising.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

^^when will this drug be available though??in 10 years??its like the clock is ticking, its already late in the game..


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

belfort said:


> ^^when will this drug be available though??in 10 years??its like the clock is ticking, its already late in the game..


Yeah I know, the process is ridiculously long but hey, count our blessings that we'll (probably) still be around in those 10 years. People in our position even 50 years ago couldn't even dream of something like this on the horizon.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

^ Your young still.....but for people like belfort and myself in our thirties the time factor is difficult for us to accept. Hell....What kind of success will we have with this type of med when we are pushing mid 40's. By that poing of life, people have already developed relationships. What are we left to do.....start hangin with 20 year old when we are 44?  Not to mention how much mental health damage we are doing to ourselves because our social options become more limited as we grow older.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

TiMeZuP said:


> ^ Your young still.....but for people like belfort and myself in our thirties the time factor is difficult for us to accept. Hell....What kind of success will we have with this type of med when we are pushing mid 40's. By that poing of life, people have already developed relationships. What are we left to do.....start hangin with 20 year old when we are 44?  Not to mention how much mental health damage we are doing to ourselves because our social options become more limited as we grow older.


Yeah I get you. I'm constantly contemplating suicide and these thoughts are only getting more frequent so for all I know, I won't be here in ten years anyways.

It's just that, feeling pessimistic about it seems useless. There are a lot of positive steps we can take in our lives of our own accord, but this isn't one of them. The drugs will be on the market when they're on the market. ****, even at 23 I'm feeling like I've fallen so far behind so I can't imagine what I'd be feeling like if I was still just as non-functional a person in my thirties, although a decade is pretty much half my life so far so even for me it seems a long way off.

Point is though, that we should really only be focusing on what we CAN change for the moment. I'm really interested in the thought of SNDRIs becoming a legitimate part of treatment, and I wish I could be 23 in a time when they're already available, but it's really just too futile to have any real gripes with it. My doctors and I all believe this is something that will have to be managed for pretty much the rest of my life, so it's still something to look forward too.

But ****... even at a relatively young age, the years are just flying by. Paradoxically, the days seem almost tortuously long, but life is so damn short and to have to wait for 10+ years for an already-developed drug to reach the market is just so damn unfortunate.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> I personally do feel unformfteble in social situations, but there arent any toughts like "what are ppl gonna think of met" etc.. Just a feeling of complete disintrest and wanting to get out. And sometimes a brainfog that comes up making you feel stoned.


Same here. My lack of social drive causes discomfort in social situations, even attending class and going to work. How can I feel uncomfortable when I don't care what peoples' opinions of me are? The anxiety is _somehow_ tied into the lack of social drive.



crayzyMed said:


> Hmm interesting, have you tried higher doses? Maybe dexedrine could work better.


Doubtful. Stimulants either make people more interested in socializing, or less. For people like belfort and TiMeZuP, an empathogen is probably the best route to take.

Speaking of empathogens, for those who don't get relief from amphetamines: Why not try one? The longterm effects of chronic MDAI and AMT use are unknown, but if I ran out of other options I would take the risk in a heartbeat.



meyaj said:


> If dopamine is really a large factor in your SA, I imagine it's likely that you'd also have comorbid ADHD as I do, most likely predominately inattentive.


Each neurotransmitter plays a wide role in modifying the psyche, so deficiency in one system can lead to various psychological conditions. For example, I can concentrate very well and am in no way hyperactive, yet socializing seems pointless to me, even just posting on forums! The only reason I'm even replying to this thread now is because I'm on Adderall which puts something in my head that I want to say, which then in turn makes wording my posts a piece of cake.

And think about how many people have ADHD that don't have this rare "Introverted Personality Disorder" we're speaking of. I don't see a correlation at all.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> And think about how many people have ADHD that don't have this rare "Introverted Personality Disorder" we're speaking of. I don't see a correlation at all.


Thats my take on it. Though if it were acknowleged every introvert would feel they had the disorder. Society does not want that! I wish they would reconize its' problems, yet it is difficult to find many usefull articles suggesting that introversion is our problem. EVERYTHING I read defends introversion.

I am introvert with social skills. I ****ing hate being an introvert! I am tired of being in this internal world all the time. I want to feel the emotions that extroverts feel from the the outside world. I am tired of faking a laugh or a smile. I am tired of getting tired from socializing with people. Contrary to popular belief, it is my opinion that introversion is a disorder that leads to many other mental health issues.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

TiMeZuP said:


> Thats my take on it. Though if it were acknowleged every introvert would feel they had the disorder. Society does not want that! I wish they would reconize its' problems, yet it is difficult to find many usefull articles suggesting that introversion is our problem. EVERYTHING I read defends introversion.


Okay then, "*Hyper*introverted Personality Disorder", does that sound any better? :b



> I am introvert with social skills. I ****ing hate being an introvert! I am tired of being in this internal world all the time. I want to feel the emotions that extroverts feel from the the outside world. I am tired of faking a laugh or a smile. I am tired of getting tired from socializing with people. Contrary to popular belief, it is my opinion that introversion is a disorder that leads to many other mental health issues.


I completely agree. I went years not saying a word to anyone in school, then once high school rolled around, I finally realized how I was different than everyone else I encountered in my life which subsequently caused my extreme discomfort during social events.

And I hear ya man, I'm fed up with this **** too... and I'm just 20 years old. I feel like an old man that's living the same day over and over again. It's absolutely cruel that euthanasia/assisted suicide isn't legal. Why should I be forced to watch my life pass me by for decades, knowing I can't do a single thing to change it? If I want it to end now, I should be able to end it now for ****'s sake.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

meyaj said:


> Yeah I get you. I'm constantly contemplating suicide and these thoughts are only getting more frequent so for all I know, I won't be here in ten years anyways.
> 
> It's just that, feeling pessimistic about it seems useless. There are a lot of positive steps we can take in our lives of our own accord, but this isn't one of them. The drugs will be on the market when they're on the market. ****, even at 23 I'm feeling like I've fallen so far behind so I can't imagine what I'd be feeling like if I was still just as non-functional a person in my thirties, although a decade is pretty much half my life so far so even for me it seems a long way off.
> 
> ...


If you want to take an SNDRI today, couldn't you get a bit pharmacologically creative and take say an SSRI + Methylphenidate? Since you suffer from ADHD and depression I'd imagine that it woulnd't be too hard to obtain these from a doctor.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

jim_morrison said:


> If you want to take an SNDRI today, couldn't you get a bit pharmacologically creative and take say an SSRI + Methylphenidate? Since you suffer from ADHD and depression I'd imagine that it woulnd't be too hard to obtain these from a doctor.


Methylphenidate is too noradrenergic. And also has too short a half life, tolerance would likely build quickly. An SSRI + amineptine would probably be awesome, though. Possibly even better without the SSRI.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> Methylphenidate is too noradrenergic. And also has too short a half life, tolerance would likely build quickly. An SSRI + amineptine would probably be awesome, though. Possibly even better without the SSRI.


Doesn't Methylphenidate come in an extended release variety now? But yeah, amineptine or nomifensine would be pretty awsome.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

jim_morrison said:


> Doesn't Methylphenidate come in an extended release variety now? But yeah, amineptine or nomifensine would be pretty awsome.


It does (Concerta), but for some reason methylphenidate works on a PRN basis, whereas bupropion/nomifensine/amineptine are 24/7 meds. You'd think methylphenidate and cocaine being RIs, they'd similarly need several days of consecutive dosing before autoreceptors desensitized... :stu


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Bupropion worked pretty much instantly for me, but probably would've got better with chronic dosing.


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## John Smith (Jul 14, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> Useful augmentation to treat what? I'm aware you take it for ADD, but does it help even minutely for anything else?


 I meant augmentation of my personality. Perhaps I worded that poorly. What I meant was it helps but doesn't fix everything.

It does make me slightly more talkative and produces a very subtle sense of wellbeing, probably about 1/10th the potency of alcohol.

The main effect it has is to allow me to actually initiate and continue an activity, such as a chore, rather than simply stare at it.



IllusionalFate said:


> Ahh, I think I see why you have the viewpoint of "It's no miracle cure to anything" now. Many people with ADD or ADHD respond with certain paradoxical effects to stimulants (ie. reduced hyperactivity, increased introversion).


 I fit the exact description of "inattentive" ADD, so it does what it does to most people, only to apparently much less of a degree. I have heard people describe amphetamines as "brain steroids", and that "you won't be able to sleep" etc., but it simply doesn't have that degree of effect on me.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

i havent had insomnia while taking amphetamines either....of course i dont take them late at night but other than that, havent missed any sleep due to amps...


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

John Smith said:


> It does make me slightly more talkative and produces a very subtle sense of wellbeing...


I'm feeling something closer to that right now than how I usually feel on Adderall. Today is the 4th day out of 5 days this week I've taken it, so tolerance may be forming. Either that or it still hasn't fully kicked in (XR sometimes takes a couple more hours to feel the peak than IR) or it's just one of those days where it doesn't work quite as well... has happened to me a few times in the past. Regardless, euphoria or not it's taking care of my SA/social anhedonia.



belfort said:


> i havent had insomnia while taking amphetamines either....of course i dont take them late at night but other than that, havent missed any sleep due to amps...


Usually the same deal with me, but last night I tried to get to sleep (the Adderall had worn off a couple hours earlier) and I just felt plenty awake and not tired at all. So I took some more this morning and I should be able to sleep like a baby in 5 or so hours.


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## MissMay1977 (Oct 25, 2008)

Adderall only affects my sleep if I take it in the evening. If I take it before 3pm- I'm good.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

TiMeZuP said:


> I've tried that plan many times. This plan has caused Me and Depression to go out on many dates. Depression and I have even hooked up a few times. Maybe acceptence will work for you but for me.....I just can't


Yeah me neither. I'll sooner die than give up trying to fix my brain.

If my current med combo fails, my psych said I could try aripiprazole. It's primarily a partial D2/D3 agonist, followed by 5-HT2A antagonism. It also has weaker actions on 5-HT1A, 5-HT2C, 5-HT7, and some more. It's not perfect, but it looks like it could work wonders on my schizoid "core symptoms" of anhedonia, lack of social drive, etc., especially combined with sertraline... Can't believe I didn't think of this one before, maybe it was the label of 'antipsychotic' -- unlike with the others, I wouldn't have to worry about movement disorders, weight gain, and some other nasty side effects.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

Seriouslly, we really need a Wikipedia page about this. The medical community doesn't think it is a medical condition yet many people experience exactly what you, belfort, and myself deal with EVERY ****ing day. The word needs to spread and we need like minded people experiencing the same thing we are contributed to the page.

I am sure you and I both could agree this "introversion personality disorder" is the direct result of our SA/Anxiety, Apathy, depression. etc....

What do we stand to lose?



IllusionalFate said:


> Okay then, "*Hyper*introverted Personality Disorder", does that sound any better? :b
> 
> I completely agree. I went years not saying a word to anyone in school, then once high school rolled around, I finally realized how I was different than everyone else I encountered in my life which subsequently caused my extreme discomfort during social events.
> 
> And I hear ya man, I'm fed up with this **** too... and I'm just 20 years old. I feel like an old man that's living the same day over and over again. It's absolutely cruel that euthanasia/assisted suicide isn't legal. Why should I be forced to watch my life pass me by for decades, knowing I can't do a single thing to change it? If I want it to end now, I should be able to end it now for ****'s sake.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

TiMeZuP said:


> Seriouslly, we really need a Wikipedia page about this. The medical community doesn't think it is a medical condition yet many people experience exactly what you, belfort, and myself deal with EVERY ****ing day. The word needs to spread and we need like minded people experiencing the same thing we are contributed to the page.
> 
> I am sure you and I both could agree this "introversion personality disorder" is the direct result of our SA/Anxiety, Apathy, depression. etc....
> 
> What do we stand to lose?


I'm in the same boat and it's frustrating going through "regular" treatment but I don't know if I'd go as far as saying it's a new disorder, especially when talking about a more generalized social phobia. Seems like it could be to a large degree explained by social anxiety and something like atypical depression (and the two already have a *huge* overlap.)

My social phobia is pretty debilitating (to the point where a psychiatrist insisted I apply for disability) but I can still do public speaking and stuff like that if I have to, probably no worse than your average person. I've freaked out while going shopping a few times but generally I'm fine with that too. Lack of motivation and initiative in social situations isn't really unexpected, especially when these two disorders combine. Both I've been diagnosed with.

There is already pretty much an "introverted personality disorder" covered in the DSM, at least the seems to suit your purposes - "avoidant personality disorder", which is probably the icing on the cake for people like us. There's also a very high comorbidity between all 3 disorders, and it's well-known.

Thing is, stuff like the DSM doesn't really deal with treatment, it deals with diagnosis. And any good psychiatrist will tell you that these DSM labels are really only useful as shorthand to insurance companies, other doctors, etc. People's psyche don't just fit into some cookie-cutter mould. Treatment needs to be individualized and any doc worth their salt knows that.

If you seriously regard what you've got as a personality disorder, though, you're looking at things all wrong. With good reason, drugs are not commonly used to treat personality disorders, and they're pretty ineffective with them to boot. Personality disorders are the kind of thing that needs considerable amounts of therapy.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

TiMeZuP said:


> I am sure you and I both could agree this "introversion personality disorder" is the direct result of our SA/Anxiety, Apathy, depression. etc....


I don't know who you were talking to there, but for me, I am 100% sure my "core problem" preceded and caused the anxiety, depression, etc., rather than the other way round. It probably was exacerbated by these secondary problems, but escaping the vicious circle with therapy is pointless without addressing the core stuff.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

I was speaking to anyone who feels extreme introversion is the cause of there SA problems. The reward associated with socializing isn't worth the draining aspect of it. I am wired to seek isolation over socialization. It's a real ball buster and as you pointed out, a vicious cycle that goes round and round. The point I was making is I have NEVER seen articles referring to problems associated with being overtly introvert. EVERYTHING/everybody wants to defend introversion. I love the advice of "just suck it up and learn social skills"...........blah

Social skills without feeling the part is nothing more then being a good actor. I do it everyday



euphoria said:


> I don't know who you were talking to there, but for me, I am 100% sure my "core problem" preceded and caused the anxiety, depression, etc., rather than the other way round. It probably was exacerbated by these secondary problems, but escaping the vicious circle with therapy is pointless without addressing the core stuff.


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## TiMeZuP (Sep 30, 2009)

I realize the DSM doesn't offer treatment. However, its the starting ground for meds to be developed. As Advoidant Personality Disorder in the DSM, its very vague and really needs to be expanded on.

Personality and Disorders are really the same thing. Both the result of brain wiring. Therapy is crap. It doesn't solve problems, maybe only allow people to accept there flaws. I CAN NOT and WILL NOT accept mine.



meyaj said:


> If you seriously regard what you've got as a personality disorder, though, you're looking at things all wrong. With good reason, drugs are not commonly used to treat personality disorders, and they're pretty ineffective with them to boot. Personality disorders are the kind of thing that needs considerable amounts of therapy.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

TiMeZuP said:


> Seriouslly, we really need a Wikipedia page about this. The medical community doesn't think it is a medical condition yet many people experience exactly what you, belfort, and myself deal with EVERY ****ing day. The word needs to spread and we need like minded people experiencing the same thing we are contributed to the page.


Well, first of all we at least need to agree on a name for the disorder. Any ideas?



> I am sure you and I both could agree this "introversion personality disorder" is the direct result of our SA/Anxiety, Apathy, depression. etc....


Not in my case...


euphoria said:


> I don't know who you were talking to there, but for me, I am 100% sure my "core problem" preceded and caused the anxiety, depression, etc., rather than the other way round. It probably was exacerbated by these secondary problems, but escaping the vicious circle with therapy is pointless without addressing the core stuff.


Yep, exactly.



meyaj said:


> I'm in the same boat and it's frustrating going through "regular" treatment but I don't know if I'd go as far as saying it's a new disorder, especially when talking about a more generalized social phobia. Seems like it could be to a large degree explained by social anxiety and something like atypical depression (and the two already have a *huge* overlap.)


Doesn't sound like you have it then. A lot of people here who posted don't even have that bad SA and aren't depressed, and are still suffering from it.

I definitely don't have any kind of depressive disorder.



> There is already pretty much an "introverted personality disorder" covered in the DSM, at least the seems to suit your purposes - "avoidant personality disorder", which is probably the icing on the cake for people like us. There's also a very high comorbidity between all 3 disorders, and it's well-known.


Avoidant Personality Disorder is waay different. I don't avoid social situations because of fear of being rejected, I avoid them because I have nothing to contribute, and no desire to put in the massive effort required to half-*** a conversation.



> If you seriously regard what you've got as a personality disorder, though, you're looking at things all wrong. With good reason, drugs are not commonly used to treat personality disorders, and they're pretty ineffective with them to boot. Personality disorders are the kind of thing that needs considerable amounts of therapy.


I created this thread to show people how amphetamine treats my personality disorder better than I could ever hope for. I'm sure many other drugs would work just as well if not better, too. Regarding therapy, it doesn't change personalities. Think about it a little more, it should be pretty obvious that it's a waste of time when trying to deal with disorders such as these.



TiMeZuP said:


> Social skills without feeling the part is nothing more then being a good actor. I do it everyday


I can't even act. In fact, without social drive, I don't have social skills/ability to maintain a conversation at all, even when I do put in 100% effort.



Selection10 said:


> Dexedrine is better than adderall... very calming effect & stimulating at the same time.


I will hopefully be getting some IR (+)-amphetamine sulfate tomorrow, so I look forward to comparing them.


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## oity (Jan 16, 2009)

I just wanted to chip in and say that I might have this hyper-introverted personality disorder thingy too, though I'm not sure. There are many social situations where I have little anxiety at all, yet they still go badly because I have little to say. Even talking to people via internet forums is something I rarely do, and you can't get much less anxiety than posting anonymously on a forum. I have 6 posts here at SAS, and this is the most I've ever posted on a forum, despite basically spending my life on the internet and having no real-world social life. So I think I have to conclude that my introversion probably causes my anxiety, and not the other way around.


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## belfort (May 3, 2009)

yeah there is probably big differences in the types of ahnedonia and social phobia that people on here are experiencing...i have very little social anxiety anymore, but at the same time my social drive hasnt increased at all!!even with adderall, alcohol or whatever, it still doesnt improve it much..last night i was invited to a pool party where everyone there i knew but i didnt go because simply i had such little desire to go there and talk about the same old crap...it does nothing for me....i WISH it did so i could at least feel like a normal human being...

most guys i know would go crazy if they had girls calling them, but i will avoid their phonecalls alot of the time, i cant and simply dont want to be bothered...this isnt the case 100% of the time but id say around 90% of the time..i am clueless as to what to do about it...it isnt depression, it isnt laziness, it is a nasty mixture of social ahnedonia and just not getting rewarded enough by the social time to deal with the draining effect thereafter...and these are people/girls that i LIKE....does that make sense?/nope..


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

oity said:


> I just wanted to chip in and say that I might have this hyper-introverted personality disorder thingy too, though I'm not sure. There are many social situations where I have little anxiety at all, yet they still go badly because I have little to say. Even talking to people via internet forums is something I rarely do, and you can't get much less anxiety than posting anonymously on a forum. I have 6 posts here at SAS, and this is the most I've ever posted on a forum, despite basically spending my life on the internet and having no real-world social life. So I think I have to conclude that my introversion probably causes my anxiety, and not the other way around.


Sounds exactly like my situation. I don't have any anxiety online, yet when I read a thread, I just go back to the main forum page and click on some other thread that looks interesting. I don't have any urge to reply to any at all, even though I want to - I just have nothing to say. The only time I reply to threads are when I'm on Adderall, because it puts something in my head and practically types out the post for me. Before being prescribed Adderall, 300 or so of my posts were written because of being on Nardil, so if I'm not on either of these meds then posting is way too difficult and forced.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

I have a question: Have any of you guys with your so-claimed "introversion personality disorder" tried Prozac?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

db0255 said:


> I have a question: Have any of you guys with your so-claimed "introversion personality disorder" tried Prozac?


I was going back and forth today before my pdoc appointment over whether to choose Lexapro or Prozac, and I opted for the Lexapro. It's the most selective SSRI, and doesn't inhibit CYP2D6 like Prozac, so it should probably be more tolerable in terms of side effects and won't interfere with the metabolism of other drugs. A cocktail of Lexapro 10-20mg, amineptine 200mg daily (taken b.i.d.), and 10-15mg (d)-amphetamine PRN is far more attractive to me at this point as a 24/7 treatment.

If that doesn't do the trick, I might try Prozac next.


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## Jimminy_Billy_Bob (Nov 26, 2008)

Some of you smarter people prove me wrong, but maybe us types who do not feel any reward from socialising have something wrong with our opioid systems. I've been thinking about this for some time, and the dopamine/opioid systems in the brain are fairly intertwined.

I used to be very physically anxious in social situations, heart pounding, sweating, shaking, the works. Now most of that is gone, although my brain still rejects any of my efforts to being social. I still avoid eye contact, and the whole thing just seems like more effort and stress than its worth. There has been times in my life though that socialising has felt good and effortless, and I rememmber very vividly that during these times that I felt rushes of endorphins run through my body every time I laughed, or smiled, or whenever something exciting happened. Also exercise felt good for the first time, and my interest in different activities was finally existant.

I wasnt taking any medication so nothing really could have explained this "improvement", but it was nice to feel like a normal person for a while...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Jimminy_Billy_Bob said:


> Some of you smarter people prove me wrong, but maybe us types who do not feel any reward from socialising have something wrong with our opioid systems. I've been thinking about this for some time, and the dopamine/opioid systems in the brain are fairly intertwined.
> 
> I used to be very physically anxious in social situations, heart pounding, sweating, shaking, the works. Now most of that is gone, although my brain still rejects any of my efforts to being social. I still avoid eye contact, and the whole thing just seems like more effort and stress than its worth. There has been times in my life though that socialising has felt good and effortless, and I rememmber very vividly that during these times that I felt rushes of endorphins run through my body every time I laughed, or smiled, or whenever something exciting happened. Also exercise felt good for the first time, and my interest in different activities was finally existant.
> 
> I wasnt taking any medication so nothing really could have explained this "improvement", but it was nice to feel like a normal person for a while...


This is possible, i beleive some ppl have something wrong in the serotonine system, others in dopamine, others in NMDA, others in the opioid system. Because it keeps amazing me how differend substances work for some and not at all for others.
Oxycodone didnt do a thing for my social anxiety, and its not just a problem with feeling reward als on GHB my social anxiety is still as bad and i get more reward from alot of things.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

10 mg of Codeine completely abolished my Social Anxiety. for more than 12 hours...then it still helped halfway through the next day. so a total of like 24 hours of complete SA/anxiety relief from one little codeine pill.


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## Jimminy_Billy_Bob (Nov 26, 2008)

there is a theory that people with autism, who have many similiar social symptoms to us folk with SA, are oversaturated with certain opioids/endorphins, which in turn causes their social debilitations. People seek out social contact because of endorphin release, but the theory is that since autistics have an overload of endorphins, they dont have any social motivation, as well as having many other sensory disturbances. I know it probably would not be as simple as saying that they are "overloaded" with endorphins, as the brain is far too complex. However the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me and my situation. All i know is that I have a very high pain theshold and I never feel any endorphin rush or euphoria from anything.


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## Eimaj (Aug 2, 2006)

db0255 said:


> I have a question: Have any of you guys with your so-claimed "introversion personality disorder" tried Prozac?


I was on Lexapro for years and my SA was through the roof. Partly because I was on a low dose because higher doses of Lexapro actually make me depressed and isolated. I recently switched to Prozac and even on a low dose (about 10 to 20mg [I vary my dose]) I have been much more sociable and slightly more confident as well.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Jimminy_Billy_Bob said:


> there is a theory that people with autism, who have many similiar social symptoms to us folk with SA, are oversaturated with certain opioids/endorphins, which in turn causes their social debilitations. People seek out social contact because of endorphin release, but the theory is that since autistics have an overload of endorphins, they dont have any social motivation, as well as having many other sensory disturbances. I know it probably would not be as simple as saying that they are "overloaded" with endorphins, as the brain is far too complex. However the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me and my situation. All i know is that I have a very high pain theshold and I never feel any endorphin rush or euphoria from anything.


I dont agree as opiates are a known treatment for social anxiety, and the ppl that they dont work for also dont report a worsening of the symptons. Also it never stops amazing me how differend ppl respond to differend treatments. There definatly are differend neurological causes.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Adderall XR is my favourite medication of all time. Im on 20mgs


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

TiMeZuP said:


> I thought that for myself. And ADHD meds do help but there is too much focus and alertness involved with stims, I assume because of the norepinephrin increase. I am not saying the extra alertness and focus cause anxiety. I feel less anxiety on stims. But stims don't completly help people feel empathy and enjoyment of social interaction. So for me stims may make me focus more intensely; but on the wrong things..... I.E.. I will enjoy stairing out the window thinking/focusing more intensely


Ah... very well stated (not to sound overly Freudian). I can relate perfectly, as I can with every other post in here.

Relating to what you were saying about hyper focus: adderall fuels my long time OCD compulsion of constantly monitoring and attempting to maintain a mindset which is sociable, likable and pleasant. Adderall does not help the brutal and constant self punishment/hatred I constantly feel whenever I don't live up to these unrealistic ideals. So while adderall gives me enough focus to be able to make a good effort at trying to control every little aspect of my thoughts (this increased ability to be self aware, and an improved communicator, is very helpful a lot of the time) it doesn't address the more root issue that I feel the need to be so overly analytical and highly sensitive to my social interactions. The amphetamine confidence boost was deceptive for a long time (a few years) in that I thought that the adderall confidence boost was addressing these issues because it made them easier to not become so depressed over. However, in reality, the confidence boost just made it easier to ignore the deeper issues which keep me from being as functional and successful as I am capable of.

Not sure if you were saying this, but I also can relate with my basic emotions not being as fluid and normal while on adderall. Too much time hyper focusing to really feel much of anything, until the crash of course.


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## Raptors (Aug 3, 2009)

Update?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Up until a few weeks ago, I was taking amphetamine 3-4 days per week and tolerance never became an issue. However, I've taken it 11 out of the last 14 days and the efficacy continues. Hooray for memantine! See this thread.


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