# Can't bring myself to talk to this cute girl at work



## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I have been *****ing and moaning since I started working at my company (almost 2 years worth) that there are no people around my age or younger I work with to befriend or date. I'm the youngest worker there for the most part (and I'm not that young anymore ). Now there's this 22 year old woman (let's call her J) that is working in the same office as me at my second part-time job (only work there twice a week). When I first laid my eyes on her today, I was hit by the thunderbolt like how Michael Corleone was hit when he saw Apollonia in The Godfather (kinda fitting since she's of Italian descent). And no I'm not putting her on a pedestal or anything. I don't know her. She could be a ***** for all I know. It's just one of those feelings you get. And girls don't typically leave that impression on me at first sight. Attraction yes. But not at that kind of level. But yeah I have to admit, when I saw her beautiful face smile at me, I was thinking "I wanna get wifed up" (lol). Similar to how Vinny was saying "I wanna get wifed up" when he met Ramona in Jersey Shore (Vinny is a big man-***** but Ramona left a big impression on him. He saw her as long-term relationship material.)

I have seen her around before back in December, maybe November when I used to deliver forms to her section in-person (my section got moved to another location so we mail them out now) and I never recalled her leaving that kind of impression on me. I don't know. She just seems a lot more beautiful to me now than I had remembered.

We work in two different teams (everyone in that office is from the same division however) so we're not really co-workers. We rarely run into each other. So if I'm going to get anything going with her, I'm going to have to take the initiative to go talk to her. Since she most likely probably won't initiate conversation with me (with her being a chick and all).

Thus far all that's happened thus far is her smiling at me and saying "hey" and me doing the same. She had this shy-ish smile about her too I noticed. She is so cute. Girl-next-door brunette (that's kind of my type). Oh my gawd. I have this intense psychoevolutionary drive to mate with her and produce like 16 kids (I would use this as an ice breaker if there wasn't a good possibility that she'd think this is creepy and have HR get me fired!) I think she's the baby sister of the guy that was working at my first part-time job (at the same company, same field, different sub-field) before I entered the position. I was thinking of asking her if she's his sister. And if so, making a joke about how they hired me to clean up her brother's mess! Then I'll like ask her about how long she's been in the field, about school, etc. And after a couple conversations if things are flowing nicely, I'll ask her if she wants to grab some coffee with me and make it my treat.

I have to admit that I'm just really terrified of doing this approach though. I'm afraid that she'll think I'm a creeper or whatever (creeper has defacto come to mean guy you're not attracted to who shows interest in you. It's a word that gets thrown around a lot by girls these days). Or think that maybe I'm way below her league (girls have said that I'm cute before but still. I worry. I've got very low self-esteem and BDD issues. My self-esteem can be high at times when I see "good results". But that's not real self-esteem. Relying on external validation to feel good about myself) and that she might think "eww" or something. I won't be able to see her again on Monday. I had an opportunity today. But it kinda just stopped at us smiling and greeting each other (at least I had the courage to smile at her but that's kinda easy to do when they smile at you first).

Plus I worry that two of her co-workers (she goes shopping during lunch with one of them) might wonder "what's up" with me because they know that I am very far from Mr. Social at the office. And if I go to their area to chat with J, they are going to know immediately that I have the hots for her. Since I chat up basically no one in the office unless they approach me. And most of the time when people in the office approach me, I barely talk. And rumour could spread in the office that the socially awkward, shy junior coordinator in Section B has a crush on an admin girl in Section A.

I have always had terrible "approach game"/"beginning game" with girls. The successes I've had came from girls who were more willing to take the lead or take a greater share of the lead than usual. Though most girls get approached enough that they really see no incentive to do any approaching themselves. So I have to learn how to take more initiative and how to do it effectively.


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## piglatinlover12 (Jun 3, 2012)

How about you just say Hi again the next time you see her and say your name and what you do. If anyone thinks you're creepy for that reason then they must be fools


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

The fact that you wrote so much about this girl and you haven't even said hi to her yet makes it very obvious that you're overanalyzing things. What is the typical trap for ANY guy, especially if you have SA, when it comes to girls? What is the worst thing you can do? Putting the girl on a pedestal before you've even talked to her (and yes, that is what you've done, thunderbolt) and also not talking to her right away is the quickest way to increase your anxiety around her, eventually become even more infatuated with her from a distance, and then blow your chances by acting desperately around her.

- Don't worry about what anyone else thinks. Who the **** cares if Joe Blow thinks you have the hots for her? That should have no bearing on YOU going after what YOU want. And if he does care, it's only because he's jealous because he doesn't have the balls to talk to her.

- No one will think you're a creeper if you just go and say hi. That's NORMAL. Talking to people is NORMAL. I know with SA it's hard to do so, but you already know what will happen if you don't go for it (*cough*absolutelynothingexceptregret*cough*).

- While I believe there is a lot to be learned when it comes to "game" and all that, the core of the learning comes from within yourself, through your own experiences. Here is a chance to have, at the very least, an important learning experience that will lead to more experiences down the road.

- What's the worst that could happen? You "embarrass" yourself by having a chat with her? Again, putting her on a pedestal. You already care way too much about what she thinks of you. You said it, you rely on external validation. Time to work on that.

- What's the best that could happen? You produce SEVENTEEN kids with her, and live happily ever after.

- Go. Say. Hello.


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## LittleBearBrah (Feb 2, 2011)

rymo said:


> The fact that you wrote so much about this girl and you haven't even said hi to her yet makes it very obvious that you're overanalyzing things. What is the typical trap for ANY guy, especially if you have SA, when it comes to girls? What is the worst thing you can do? Putting the girl on a pedestal before you've even talked to her (and yes, that is what you've done, thunderbolt) and also not talking to her right away is the quickest way to increase your anxiety around her, eventually become even more infatuated with her from a distance, and then blow your chances by acting desperately around her.
> 
> - Don't worry about what anyone else thinks. Who the **** cares if Joe Blow thinks you have the hots for her? That should have no bearing on YOU going after what YOU want. And if he does care, it's only because he's jealous because he doesn't have the balls to talk to her.
> 
> ...


OMG This. I couldn't even read your entire post OP srs, but I've been there before. Good luck.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> The fact that you wrote so much about this girl and you haven't even said hi to her yet makes it very obvious that you're overanalyzing things. What is the typical trap for ANY guy, especially if you have SA, when it comes to girls? What is the worst thing you can do? Putting the girl on a pedestal before you've even talked to her (and yes, that is what you've done, thunderbolt) and also not talking to her right away is the quickest way to increase your anxiety around her, eventually become even more infatuated with her from a distance, and then blow your chances by acting desperately around her.


Actually we did greet each other with a hi and a smile.  Well "hey" but close enough. I know I'm being nitpicky though.  We haven't really had a conversation yet. Back in November/December we talked about work stuff for a tiny bit. That's about it.

Yeah I overanalyze things. That is what I do. I take comfort in wanting control over a situation and don't like not being in control. I don't pedestal-ize her in the sense that I think she's amazing or whatever. Because there is nothing yet that suggests this. She's just attractive, smiled at me and said hey. Like I said, she could be a *****. There is nothing she has done to be pedestalized in that way. That whole "thunderbolt" thing is just some instinctual reaction. Though I do see her as unattainable. Which is probably true. A girl like her probably has lots of guys interested in her. Why would she pick me over those plenty of guys? I don't want to get my hopes up in that situation. Though on the flip side, you do need confidence to even have a chance most of the time (that has been my experience). So in a way, you need to be able to gain confidence out of nothing. Which is really hard to do for the vast majority of people.



> - Don't worry about what anyone else thinks. Who the **** cares if Joe Blow thinks you have the hots for her? That should have no bearing on YOU going after what YOU want. And if he does care, it's only because he's jealous because he doesn't have the balls to talk to her.


The two co-workers I was referring to are female. They wouldn't be motivated by jealousy. But yeah those two have known me since mid-2010 (only as office mates who shared his/how are yous and had a bit of conversation at best) and they will know something is up immediately if I went to talk to J because they know that I never do this with anyone at the office. Worst case scenario, I assume that her closer friend of the two will think, "ewww, that socially awkward, shy guy likes you. *bursts out laughing* Oh my gawd, I can't believe he thought he even had the chance. It's cute."



> - No one will think you're a creeper if you just go and say hi. That's NORMAL. Talking to people is NORMAL. I know with SA it's hard to do so, but you already know what will happen if you don't go for it (*cough*absolutelynothingexceptregret*cough*).


I think it'll seem like I'm a creeper if I all of a sudden start conversation with some girl. When I have a reputation in the office for being that guy who doesn't talk to people (I work in an environment where practically everyone is older than us. It's hard to socialize with soccer moms). Anyone that sees me talking with J casually like that will know immediately what's going on.



> - What's the worst that could happen? You "embarrass" yourself by having a chat with her? Again, putting her on a pedestal. You already care way too much about what she thinks of you. You said it, you rely on external validation. Time to work on that.


In that sense, yes I put her (and other people in general) on a pedestal. I care about what they think of me. If other people were to generally think I'm a loser , it would be hard not to internalize that. I do rely on the external validation and it's something that needs to change apparently (according to what the psychologists say). The reason why I've only done well with women who took more initiative and were more aggressive is because that external validation (she's making all this effort to talk with me or she said that I'm cute. That must mean I'm not so bad after all. And then I in turn gain the confidence to be more assertive. But then something else in the future will happen that will drop me back down). But human beings by nature are social animals who want to be liked.

But yes it's hell to be in a situation where you base your self-worth on how others judge you because if you don't have the confidence to begin with, it's very difficult to get anywhere with the vast majority of girls. And this just makes you feel even worse. I feel like I have a lot to offer to someone. But it's not often that a woman wants to buy what I'm selling. I put women on a pedestal in the sense that I place a lot of importance on their acceptance of me. But on the flip side, over the years, I have developed a negative view of the female gender. After all, why else would I assume that girls will think I'm a creeper if I go talk to them? You say that it can get better. And yes my situation had improved more than I thought it would. But it's not easy. I haven't been satisfied with the quality of women that I have been attracting (either they are unattractive or have something severely wrong with them mentally). Or they ultimately reject me in the future. It's hard for me to take advice from a dude who is probably at least just as good looking as me but a lot more masculine to boot (you're like 6'3". I'm 5'6". lol A lot of shorter girls and even some taller girls don't seem to mind. But it puts men at a significant disadvantage with mate selection) and might not have started out with as much impairment socially.


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## babylemonade (Nov 24, 2011)

You have nothing to lose here.

Say hi, ask how she is, how's work been, is she enjoying it etc...If you like a girl that badly, it will force you out of your shell without you even trying.

Do small talk. Don't overanalyse, or try to be something you're not.

I'm in a similar situation, except in mine she's a lot younger than me so it it's kinda harder to contend with.

Good luck.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> ...


It is hell, you're absolutely right. But it's not hopeless. There's only one way to improve, and that's to just go say hi. You've made excuses for every single point I brought up. Enough worrying about why you CAN'T do it, let's start focusing on why and how you CAN. And that's to stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop making excuses which have no bearing on the situation (like worrying about what some other coworker thinks of you approaching her, again - WHO CARES?), and JUST DO IT. Let all that anxiety hit you, face it head on, but don't give it so much power. Don't make excuses for it and make it stronger, because the mission you have is incredibly simple. Just. say. hi. That's all you should focus on. One foot after the other.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> phoenixwright said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


 I have already said hi. I guess you probably missed that from my big wall of text. The next step is having an actual conversation with her.

The reason why I'm hesitant to talk with her is simple: I'm afraid it'll be a result I won't like (one girl shut me out cold. I said hey and she didn't even reply and i think she said something to her friend about me being weird). And when I go through that crap, it hurts my self-esteem and my motivation and confidence and puts me in a worse position than I started. At the end of the day there are leagues and as a loser in life and the genetic lottery, I suppose I'm at the bottom rung. Because that seems to be the quality I attract (unattractive women and girls with severe mental and personality disorders. Often times both at the same time.) I don't believe in giving people false hope. Humans are incredibly selfish by nature (as much as we like to pretend we are "civilized", we are animals and slaves to our animalistic nature) and only care about how they can use you for personal gain and social status.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> I have already said hi. I guess you probably missed that from my big wall of text. The next step is having an actual conversation with her.
> 
> The reason why I'm hesitant to talk with her is simple: I'm *afraid* it'll be a result I won't like (*one girl shut me out cold. I said hey and she didn't even reply and i think she said something to her friend about me being weird*). And when I go through that crap, it hurts my self-esteem and my motivation and confidence and puts me in a worse position than I started. At the end of the day there are leagues and as a loser in life and the genetic lottery, I suppose I'm at the bottom rung. Because that seems to be the quality I attract (very unattractive women and girls with severe mental and personality disorders. Often times both at the same time.) I don't believe in giving people false hope. Humans are incredibly selfish by nature (as much as we like to pretend we are "civilized", we are animals and slaves to our animalistic nature) and only care about how they can use you for personal gain and social status.


If you can find a guy who isn't at all afraid of approaching a girl or a guy who has never been rejected or shut out cold before in their life then I will start believing in miracles. The guys who do best just push through that fear and don't worry so much about rejection because they realize that not only is it nothing personal but the more they interact with different people the higher chance they have to end up with someone. 99 rejections and 1 success makes all the hard work worth it. Of course, you can't just be at that point mentally right away. You have to work at it. So go have a conversation with her, you have nothing to lose. You say you'll be in a worse position than when you started but if you think like that you've already defeated yourself and you will NEVER succeed at this. I don't know about you man, but I would be sick and tired of accepting this so called fate that you believe you've been stuck with. I would be frustrated as hell. Downright mad. Use that energy and do something with it. Go have a conversation with the girl. What could you possibly say that would embarrass yourself? Just ask her about herself, her interests, what she does for fun, etc. Throw in a little quip every once in a while and smile a bunch as well, and you'll be fine.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

I completely agree with everything Rymo says. And just like Rymo said, try not to care about what coworkers may or may not think, or what the girl will think if you try and talk to her. Because you do not know what any of them will think, you're projecting there. The only way to find out what the girl will think of you is to talk to her. 

If you go up to her thinking you're going to get rejected and humiliated, then if by some small chance having that mentality you actually did go up to her, then the whole time I bet you'd be watchiing what you say, overanalyzing her reactions and what she says and drawing conclusions that may or may not be true (like, "She didn't smile a lot so she didn't like me"). Don't let the fear hold you back when in the end, there may have been nothing at all to fear.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Yea it's a bad mentality to have. To think that I'll make you even worse from when you started. That has been my personal experience though. It just kills you mentally when you go through rejection after rejection.

I have two different mentalities. There is a part of me that feels I'm not living to my potential and believes I deserve more. There's another part that thinks "who I am kidding? I'm giving myself false hope."


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> Yea it's a bad mentality to have. To think that I'll make you even worse from when you started. That has been my personal experience though. It just kills you mentally when you go through rejection after rejection.
> 
> I have two different mentalities. There is a part of me that feels I'm not living to my potential and believes I deserve more. There's another part that thinks "who I am kidding? I'm giving myself false hope."


And which one sounds better to you? Btw, what do you look like? Do you have issues with your physical appearance (besides your height), or is it mostly just the conversational abilities?


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> phoenixwright said:
> 
> 
> > Yea it's a bad mentality to have. To think that I'll make you even worse from when you started. That has been my personal experience though. It just kills you mentally when you go through rejection after rejection.
> ...


Check my profile. Ive got a couple pics there. As for physical appearance, there are other things yes. Though my insecurities beyond appearance matter more (social awkwardness, social anxiety, running into blocks in conversation, having trouble relating to women, insecure about my job security, the fact that I'm living at home because of said job insecurity, etc. I'm going to be making $3200-ish this month. But next month it could look more like $1750/month like last month if they cut my hours like they did in the past. And the cost of living is expensive here). I've been told that I'm cute/handsome.

So yea my problems are more conversational and social mainly but yes there are other insecurities I have about my appearance. I'm self-conscious when I look at these studly ripped, muscular guys (I love watching Jersey Shore but those guys make me feel insecure. lol) and see girls drool over them. So yeah I'd like my body fat % to be lower. But that takes a lot of discipline and motivation. I find it difficult to have the willpower to stick to exercise routine and/ or caloric restriction. Hard to avoid comfort foods. When I follow my "routine" diet, I'm supposed to have scrambled egg whites with lean ham in the morning for protein and some bread in the morning (you're allowing to have carbs in the morning. Plus it's good carbs). Then at mid-morning, whey protein shake or protein bar (allowed carbs in the morning). Lunch, tuna sandwiches or tuna salad (less carbs). Then mid-afternoon, protein shake. Then for dinner I'm supposed to have lean meat with salad (light dressing only). Then at night another protein shake. When your diet is like that on a regular basis, it makes you go insane. It's hard to stick to a lifestyle where you can't enjoy eating food. Having that kind of body I want takes a lot of discipline and sacrifice. And you feel like crap when you're not enjoying food.

I also get self- conscious about acne scars. About my Teeth (I need invisalign and I grind my teeth at night sometimes. So the enamel is visibly eroded to an extent and I obsess over it when I look at a mirror. Though it's not like I have awful teeth or anything. But when I look in the mirror, it does look awful. A friend of mine told me that my teeth are good and that I'm just obsessing over nothing but yea. I just feel self- conscious when I see people with straight teeth with enamel intact and what not. Cosmetic dental work is expensive. Also watching porn has made me self-conscious down there even though I'm around average length and girls have commented that I'm thick. lol. But when you're so used to seeing Lexington Steele-sized equipment, psychologically you think you're small. Also get self-conscious about my hair since I have a cowlick that is very hard to manage. lol. I'll have to get one of those straighteners that don't damage your hair. That covers it pretty well I guess.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

A 38 year old married woman (very unattractive) contacted me on this hookup site I'm a part of (I've hooked up on there with a girl before. It's legit) today (I think it's amusing that I go on a "women don't like meeeeee rant" after strings of rejection and then bam, a girl initiates contact me and shows very direct interest. This has happened before multiple times. I'm not sure why exactly) and I entertained her a bit with some conversation and she wants to hook up with me (while keeping it under wraps from hubby). lol. Story of my life! I always attract women that I'm not into or that are bat**** crazy (that said, I will never say no to a crazy woman if she is good looking and sweet. I'm weak-willed! lol). See this is what I mean.

It's flattering to know that some 38 year old married woman thinks of me as some young boytoy stud. But coooommmmeeee oonn!!! Why can't you be a good looking milf at least? 

I actually did rather well chatting with this lady (I saw this as good practice). I'm impressed with myself. BUT honestly it's the fact that she's into me and willing to go after what she wants that makes the big difference. This is a common pattern with me. I'm a counter-striker. I gel more with "modern womyn." Girls who are less traditional, less old-fashioned, who go for what they want and are confident in their sexuality and aren't ashamed of being aggressive. But most women are not like that.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I found myself a good opportunity to talk with J at work. I had an opportunity previously 2 weeks ago but I choked. But I made some progress this time. I ran into her (not literally) in the hallway. She smiled at me said "hey, how are you?" I said "good". I didn't ask her back how she was. I probably should have. Then a little later I dropped off some forms for her (that's the only "legitimate" work-related chance I have to strike up conversation with her). 

I had helped her out with an issue the day before (over work e-mail. I went above and beyond and helped her out a bit more than was necessary. A client needed a copy of a form. I had sent her a paper copy weeks before. But she couldn't find it in her possession. I guess she might have misplaced it. She was asking me if I had the paper copy but I no longer had it in my possession since I gave it to her. Instead of finger blaming like most people at our company do "not my problem, I gave it to you", I asked someone in another department to dig out a digital copy for me to send to her. And I gave her that. She was rather appreciative of this. Since the client needed that form ASAP and I helped her out. And in the body of my email to her, I had deliberately included her name in the body of my message. Because apparently girls like it when you mention their name when you talk to them. Just don't overdo it. lol And I had used the "pet" version of her full name and tried not to be so formal in my e-mail message as I would with my other clients.)

So yeah when I dropped some forms off for her today, I asked her if everything was alright with that situation with the client. She said yes and once again thanked me for everything, etc. and how it was important for her to get that form to him, etc. She was smiling. I smiled back. Said no problem. But I'm pretty sure I was visibly shy/nervous and my body language was giving off a vibe that I wanted to leave and couldn't stand being there for a second longer. Then I forced myself to ask her if she was related to this guy at work that used to work in my position before I took over. She said that she was and joked that she looks nothing like her brother. Then she thanked me once again and I left. 

Now I'm worried about how I'm going to escalate towards the stage where I ask her out to lunch (or probably just coffee.. less pressure). I need to build some rapport first. We've barely done that yet.

She has an amazing smile. The way her face and eyes light up in a cute, shyish way. I want to kiss all over her beautiful face! lol. She's that cute. But you just never know when girls are just being friendly and most of the time, they're just being friendly. 

Plus I don't even know where to go from here. Next time I drop off forms or run into her, what do I say? lol. Grr.

Plus I was self-conscious about how I looked around her. The shirt I wore today at work (a short-sleeved button down) was way too long. It's a medium. I can't remember if it was my mom or older sister who bought it for me. lol. Medium-sized shirts are generally not a good idea for 5'6" men. It makes their already short legs look even shorter. I should be taking charge and doing more of my own shopping instead of having my sister or mom pick out stuff for me. lol. Plus I wasn't a big fan of the shirt. I find that I have very few short-sleeved shirts that actually suit me. Most of my best clothing is long-sleeved or layered. I need a queer eye for the straight guy to buy me some stylish ****.


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## Droidsteel (Mar 22, 2012)

rymo said:


> The fact that you wrote so much about this girl and you haven't even said hi to her yet makes it very obvious that you're overanalyzing things. What is the typical trap for ANY guy, especially if you have SA, when it comes to girls? What is the worst thing you can do? Putting the girl on a pedestal before you've even talked to her (and yes, that is what you've done, thunderbolt) and also not talking to her right away is the quickest way to increase your anxiety around her, eventually become even more infatuated with her from a distance, and then blow your chances by acting desperately around her.
> 
> - Don't worry about what anyone else thinks. Who the **** cares if Joe Blow thinks you have the hots for her? That should have no bearing on YOU going after what YOU want. And if he does care, it's only because he's jealous because he doesn't have the balls to talk to her.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I wish I knew you in person :clap


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## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

phoenixwright said:


> Now I'm worried about how I'm going to escalate towards the stage where I ask her out to lunch (or probably just coffee.. less pressure). I need to build some rapport first. We've barely done that yet.


Try to imagine how you'd talk to her if she were a guy, or a girl you're not into in a "more than friends" way.

Are there any lunch spots near your office? A good low-pressure thing is to ask someone to come along to a local take-out place. "Hey, I'm picking up Thai food at Wherever--you want to grab some too?" Or even, "Hey, I'm going to get a coffee from Sbux/Tim Hortons, you want to come too?" I've seen people befriend other people this way at my office, so I figure it must work!


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

pita said:


> Try to imagine how you'd talk to her if she were a guy, or a girl you're not into in a "more than friends" way.
> 
> Are there any lunch spots near your office? A good low-pressure thing is to ask someone to come along to a local take-out place. "Hey, I'm picking up Thai food at Wherever--you want to grab some too?" Or even, "Hey, I'm going to get a coffee from Sbux/Tim Hortons, you want to come too?" I've seen people befriend other people this way at my office, so I figure it must work!


at the office I work it's pretty much mostly older adults. Not same-age peers ( except for her pretty much). So I don't even have any friends at work to begin with! lol. So yeah I'm pretty lost with the whole office socializing thing. I don't even have that baseline "friend at the office" social experience to compare to.

I will have to force myself to do something though. Thing is, she'd have to be severely socially retarded to not tell that I like her. I'd think that if she's not trying to make a move herself, she's not interested. The worst is when people urge me to go for it when I sense that she's probably not interested anyway only to confirm my belief that she's not interested when I do muster up the courage to go for it. But because I have SA, I'm probably prone to false negative judgments and misjudge some girls (particularly if they are "traditional" and expect the guy to make all the moves. Or If she is shy.)


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## TrcyMcgrdy1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Fekkin stick it innnnnnn. Drunk advice... worthy long night.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Droidsteel said:


> Sometimes I wish I knew you in person :clap






phoenixwright said:


> at the office I work it's pretty much mostly older adults. Not same-age peers ( except for her pretty much). So I don't even have any friends at work to begin with! lol. So yeah I'm pretty lost with the whole office socializing thing. I don't even have that baseline "friend at the office" social experience to compare to.
> 
> I will have to force myself to do something though. Thing is, she'd have to be severely socially retarded to not tell that I like her. I'd think that if she's not trying to make a move herself, she's not interested. The worst is when people urge me to go for it when I sense that she's probably not interested anyway only to confirm my belief that she's not interested when I do muster up the courage to go for it. But because I have SA,* I'm probably prone to false negative judgments* and misjudge some girls (particularly if they are "traditional" and expect the guy to make all the moves. Or If she is shy.)


Listen...most people aren't going to like you just from you saying "hi" to them a few times. You (and everyone else) have to establish some kind of rapport with that person first. And again, you liking her is mostly due to infatuation with her looks, maybe her energy and body language as well. But you don't truly know her personality deep down, so you need to stop and realize that she has warts (so to speak) just like everyone else. She's a normal person and there's nothing to be overwhelmed about.

As a guy, if you appear confident and charming you can definitely win over a girl. But there's no way that's going to happen if you sit in the shadows and never do anything. You have to try your best to talk to her in a casual, flirty, calm manner. And if nothing happens, you've gotten experience and next time will be easier. You've socialized and gotten closer to being part of the social world at work.

Bottom line is if you don't try to be the best version of yourself with no regrets, then you will never know if she truly likes you or not. Be that person that you know you are deep down, because that's the only way to live. Maybe not everyone will like that person but you can't please everyone, and who really cares if you can't? By being yourself and happy with it you will find those people that you love and who love you and that's all you really need.

And yes, you are prone to false negative judgments. "Probably" doesn't even enter into the equation. You ARE that way. You are implanting your thoughts into her head, when I guarantee she doesn't think a negative thing about you (not much to be able to tell from a guy when he doesn't say more than 'hi'). But that can be changed, and how do you do it? Have no regrets and

JUST DO IT


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> Listen...most people aren't going to like you just from you saying "hi" to them a few times. You (and everyone else) have to establish some kind of rapport with that person first. And again, you liking her is mostly due to infatuation with her looks, maybe her energy and body language as well. But you don't truly know her personality deep down, so you need to stop and realize that she has warts (so to speak) just like everyone else. She's a normal person and there's nothing to be overwhelmed about.
> 
> As a guy, if you appear confident and charming you can definitely win over a girl. But there's no way that's going to happen if you sit in the shadows and never do anything. You have to try your best to talk to her in a casual, flirty, calm manner. And if nothing happens, you've gotten experience and next time will be easier. You've socialized and gotten closer to being part of the social world at work.
> 
> ...


Thing is I don't know how to build rapport with her without potentially seeming like a creeper. It's unlikely I'll run into her next week (unless I actively walk to her cubicle and start chit-chatting with her. Which is what I genuinely want to do. But the fear of upsetting her or er thinking this is creepy or intrusive holds me back. If I was a female and a cute guy liked me, I would welcome this. But I don't have a female brain. Males prefer directness. Women on the other hand are overly paranoid about guys being creepers and stuff.). I don't have anything to deliver to her next week.

And no I don't pedestalize her. Read some of my posts. And if anything it sounds like I hate women ( I don't think I do. But sometimes I wonder if I do.) I think they are picky as hell. They have all these expectations about what they want from a guy. Men are much more simple. I think they accuse guys of being creepers at a drop of a hat. Women pretty much have all the power in relationships and think they are god's gift to men. Doesn't sound like much pedestalizing is going on there. But what can you do? Even if you think they are *****es, I wan to hold onto the hope that women don't really suck and men have "needs". Going to be hard for you to relate since you're a 6'3" Adonis that has no trouble getting women and getting laid.


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## Amorphousanomaly (Jun 20, 2012)

Do you know if she has a boyfriend? If she looks good, chances are she already has a boyfriend. I don't know any single girls at all.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> thing is i don't know how to build rapport with her without potentially seeming like a creeper. It's unlikely i'll run into her next week (unless i actively walk to her cubicle and start chit-chatting with her. Which is what i genuinely want to do. But the fear of upsetting her or er thinking this is creepy or intrusive holds me back. If i was a female and a cute guy liked me, i would welcome this. But i don't have a female brain. Males prefer directness. Women on the other hand are overly paranoid about guys being creepers and stuff.). I don't have anything to deliver to her next week.
> 
> And no i don't pedestalize her. Read some of my posts. And if anything it sounds like i hate women ( i don't think i do. But sometimes i wonder if i do.) i think they are picky as hell. They have all these expectations about what they want from a guy. Men are much more simple. I think they accuse guys of being creepers at a drop of a hat. Women pretty much have all the power in relationships and think they are god's gift to men. Doesn't sound like much pedestalizing is going on there.


JUST DO iT


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> JUST DO iT


I think it's easier for you to say. I think it's been hard for you to relate to guys who are in this position since you gained confidence and got girls and got laid. But it's not going to be easy or even possible for every dude. You're like some 6'3" Adonis. Oh yea it's totally easy! Only unattractive women want anything to do with me. And I don't want to be going down that path again. Getting involved with girls I don't want to be with because I have low self-esteem.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> I think it's easier for you to say. I think it's been hard for you to relate to guys who are in this position since you gained confidence and got girls and got laid. But it's not going to be easy or even possible for every dude. You're like some 6'3" Adonis. Oh yea it's totally easy! Only unattractive women want anything to do with me. And I don't want to be going down that path again. Getting involved with girls I don't want to be with because I have low self-esteem.


You want to talk about me? Okay, let's talk about me. Before I was 24.5 years old, I had never even held hands with a girl. I was in love with a girl from senior year of high school to several years into college (she went to the same schools as me). I was so obsessed with her (even though I never even really got to know her through normal conversation) that I couldn't even function. I would just try so hard to impress her and be this "cool" guy, but only ended up making myself look like a fool.

Even after I realized I had SA and started discovering why I was so socially anxious, I struggled for so many years trying to find myself. I was unmotivated, depressed, lonely...a complete wreck. It took me ages to realize that the only way I could truly find myself was to thrust myself out there in the world and just not give a ****. I started approaching girls at bars by myself even though I had never even really had a decent conversation with a girl before. I was beyond anxious but I was so sick of being a loser that I just went for it. And that was the first time I realized that that was truly the answer. To just go for what you wanted and have no regrets.

Of course, that _is_ easier said than done. But guess what? Over time and with experience, it gets easier. You put up with the rejections, you fight through all of these negative thoughts of "oh..she's going to think I'm creepy...bla bla bla.." and you realize that no matter what the outcome, there's NOTHING wrong with being a normal, conversational human being. There's NOTHING wrong with being yourself and loving yourself and not caring what other people think.

Don't think about it so much. Don't analyze things. Don't put so much pressure on yourself and the interaction. Just try to enjoy yourself. Life isn't going to just unfold perfectly, but if you fight for what you want you will become stronger for it in the end and eventually get what you want. It might not be this girl, but it might be the next one or the one after that. In the meantime you make friends and build your social network and stop worrying so much. Or even if one person here or there doesn't warm up to you, guess what? That doesn't matter. They won't have any impact on your life.

Again, it's easier said than done and I'm not trying to make it sound easy. It is mentally straining and a lot to deal with when you have SA. What I am trying to do, however, is make it sound _simple_. Because you really have no choice. Don't approach her and fold back into your shell, or just do it and start being *the man* you really want to be. If you tell me that option #1 is the way to go, then you better have a damn good argument prepared for WHY that is. Because that doesn't sound like a good one to me (or even a choice at all).

Just do it man. That's exactly what the really short and skinny Indian guy from Simple Pickup would say. You see how he looks, do you think he has any problems getting girls? Nah. Not one bit.

http://dating-wtf.com/part-11-physical-appearance-insecurities-confidence/

You are intelligent and introspective enough to know that you truly aren't a creep and you know how to treat people, so let that shine through by not being so hard on yourself and implanting your own negative thoughts and perceptions into other peoples' heads. Next time you see her, just turn off your brain and let your personality come through. Just talk to her. Ask her questions about herself. You want to know more about her, so just focus on getting to know her. That's ALL you have to do right now. So do it.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Deleted


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

There were these two girls at this place I volunteer with who had an interesting conversation related to this topic. One of the girls said that there are so many opportunities for men and women to meet and connect in this society. But guys and girls don't approach each other to talk to each other anymore. They only do so it's a friend of a friend or something like that. She says that you see tons of people walking by everytime on the street. But strangers don't even look at each other and say hi. Let alone start conversations with each other.

So yes clearly there are women out there who think like me and who welcome being approached by a guy without a "reason" or mutual acquaintance. But this J girl might not have the same mentality. Most girls don't seem to have this mentality. She might not appreciate me just walking up to her cubicle and chatting with her. She might think it's odd for me to just go talk to her without a work-related reason. And then she might give me this look of "ok why are you talking to me?" and then it'll be a very awkward situation. It would be just weird if she's like "so you don't have any forms for me?" or "so what can I do for you?" and I just said, "no, I just thought I'd chat. Give myself a little work break." Or I could suggest going for coffee but it might seem weird if I have barely build up rapport with her. "oh I'm on my way to Tim Hortons. Was wondering if you wanted to go grab a coffee or something?"

We talk about this being a social anxiety thing. But this seems to be a society-wide thing. People are afraid to approach each others these days. Instead they look down at their little iPhone/Android/Blackberry/whatever on the bus or subway or whatever and ironically _disconnect_ themselves from the world. I think a lot more people than we think in this society are alone, not in relationships, "not getting laid", etc. We think otherwise because the society bombards us of images with people in relationships and having lots of sex and what not.

And contrary to what a lot of women are saying, it doesn't take much effort for them to have success in the relationship arena. They just need to set their standards to more realistic levels. I slept with this woman who was obese, had poor hygiene, made no effort whatsoever to look nice for dates, had an ugly personality. She looked hideous. And she managed to get a long-term boyfriend not long after I ran away from her in terror (because she wanted a relationship and I just wanted sex from her. Then I ended it with her because the sex wasn't even good, I felt like I wanted to vomit after sleeping with her and I felt like I *****d out my dignity and pride sleeping with such a grotesque woman). If a woman like that can get long-term boyfriends, anyone can. All a woman needs is a vagina and she can get a boyfriend it seems. Men have absolutely zero standards. And it's not like I only go for models or anything. I've been told on numerous occassions that I'm cute. I should be getting a girl who is not that far off from the equivalent looks-wise at the very least. I shouldn't be settling for hideous women. This whole sexual selection process is totally skewed in favour of females. I'm sick of it.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> There were these two girls at this place I volunteer with who had an interesting conversation related to this topic. One of the girls said that there are so many opportunities for men and women to meet and connect in this society. But guys and girls don't approach each other to talk to each other anymore. They only do so it's a friend of a friend or something like that. She says that you see tons of people walking by everytime on the street. But strangers don't even look at each other and say hi. Let alone start conversations with each other.
> 
> So yes clearly there are women out there who think like me and who welcome being approached by a guy without a "reason" or mutual acquaintance. But this J girl might not have the same mentality. Most girls don't seem to have this mentality. She might not appreciate me just walking up to her cubicle and chatting with her. She might think it's odd for me to just go talk to her without a work-related reason. And then she might give me this look of "ok why are you talking to me?" and then it'll be a very awkward situation. It would be just weird if she's like "so you don't have any forms for me?" or "so what can I do for you?" and I just said, "no, I just thought I'd chat. Give myself a little work break." Or I could suggest going for coffee but it might seem weird if I have barely build up rapport with her. "oh I'm on my way to Tim Hortons. Was wondering if you wanted to go grab a coffee or something?"
> 
> ...


I really feel like smashing your face through a wall right now :yes (and I mean that with much love, of course...but seriously, you're making me rage)


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> I really feel like smashing your face through a wall right now :yes (and I mean that with much love, of course...but seriously, you're making me rage)


The last time you told me to go for it when I sensed a girl wasn't interested, who was the one who was right? What's the point of getting a guy's hopes up and giving him false hope? Most of us in here are losers with not much hope. There I said it. All this pua stuff about how all you need is confidence is bull****. Women can get penis on demand. Why would they even bother with a low- status male when lots of alpha males will have sex with anything? To be honest with you, I'd say most guys on here have no hope. Many will die virgins even. Luckily I broke that duck at least. Facing rejection after rejection sucks. And having to come to terms with the possibility that you're not desirable to the opposite sex. And no PUA **** about how all you need is confidence can change that.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> The last time you told me to go for it when I sensed a girl wasn't interested, who was the one who was right? What's the point of getting a guy's hopes up and giving him false hope? Most of us in here are losers with not much hope. There I said it. All this pua stuff about how all you need is confidence is bull****. Women can get penis on demand. Why would they even bother with a low- status male when lots of alpha males will have sex with anything? To be honest with you, I'd say most guys on here have no hope. Many will die virgins even. Luckily I broke that duck at least. Facing rejection after rejection sucks. And having to come to terms with the possibility that you're not desirable to the opposite sex. And no PUA **** about how all you need is confidence can change that.


Yawn...boring...this talk is so predictable. Try switching things up for once.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> Yawn...boring...this talk is so predictable. Try switching things up for once.


You are so out of touch with the SA guys on here and I think their pissed off with your canned pua talk


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> You are so out of touch with the SA guys on here and I think their pissed off with your canned pua talk


Speak for yourself, man. I don't know what you mean about PUA talk but the only way to make things better is to set small goals for yourself and go for them. If you want to make a thread like this simply for the purpose of sulking and whining then that's perfectly fine and understandable, but do not insult me by saying I'm out of touch with the SA guys on here. You have no idea the kind of hell I've been through in my life, I'm just trying to give the best advice I can based on my experiences. You can accept the clearly SA-fueled negative perception you have that your life is meant for failure, or you can take some good advice.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I came up with the courage to invite her to join me for coffee at work at Tim Hortons. I dropped off some forms for her, we exchanged heys. I said I was going to Tim's for coffee. Wanna join? She declined. Citing that she was drinking tea (she showed me her bottle. I think she might have even been sipping from a mug too right before I invited her! I can't remember. I was so caught up in asking her to coffee that I wasn't observant that she had tea already. She mentioned that she doesn't drink coffee anymore. Only tea. Pointing to hat bottle with tea. I said something to the effect of "yea the caffeine" (in retrospect, that was a dumb comment. I shoul have elaborated that the high caffeine content in coffee is pretty bad in case she didn't know what I was getting at.) (for you yanks, Tim hortons serves tea too in case you didn't know. As well as baked goods, lattes, iced beverages, etc. but she already had tea so yeah.)

She was smiling at me but once again, she could have just been friendly.

What do I do now? I think it should be obvious by now to her that I think she's attractive. If the whole tea thing is really the only reason she wouldn't go with me to Tim's, I'd imagine that she'd make an effort in the future to invite me to lunch or something if she's interested? The ball is in her court right? Or do I have to persist?

Also was it a bad move for me to invite her to Tim's when I barely talked to her previously? We talked a bit about work (including the stuff i helped her out with) and I asked her about her relation to a guy I suspected of being her brother. That's it.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> I came up with the courage to invite her to join me for coffee at work at Tim Hortons. I dropped off some forms for her, we exchanged heys. I said I was going to Tim's for coffee. Wanna join? She declined. Citing that she was drinking tea (she showed me her bottle. I think she might have even been sipping from a mug too right before I invited her! I can't remember. I was so caught up in asking her to coffee that I wasn't observant that she had tea already. She mentioned that she doesn't drink coffee anymore. Only tea. Pointing to hat bottle with tea. I said something to the effect of "yea the caffeine" (in retrospect, that was a dumb comment. I shoul have elaborated that the high caffeine content in coffee is pretty bad in case she didn't know what I was getting at.) (for you yanks, Tim hortons serves tea too in case you didn't know. As well as baked goods, lattes, iced beverages, etc. but she already had tea so yeah.)
> 
> She was smiling at me but once again, she could have just been friendly.
> 
> ...


The ball is definitely not in her court. Sometimes you have to be persistent. But I would cool off for a few days and not engage her much, it will show that you're not overly-interested. After that just try to make more conversation with her. But fun conversation. Flirt with her. Observe something about her and make fun of it in a sarcastic yet gentle way. Smile when you talk to her. Build up some kind of rapport, and THEN ask her.

If she declines again, then it's over. Don't pursue it. But if she does decline act like it's all good, don't get upset in front of her. Just smile and say, "alright, no problem - have a good day!"

Congrats on asking her though. That's a major accomplishment considering a few weeks ago you were too afraid to. You have to go for it to get anywhere, and of course it's not going to work out with every girl, but if you think of it as a numbers game and approach more girls you will have plenty of success.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> The ball is definitely not in her court. Sometimes you have to be persistent. But I would cool off for a few days and not engage her much, it will show that you're not overly-interested. After that just try to make more conversation with her. But fun conversation. Flirt with her. Observe something about her and make fun of it in a sarcastic yet gentle way. Smile when you talk to her. Build up some kind of rapport, and THEN ask her.
> 
> If she declines again, then it's over. Don't pursue it. But if she does decline act like it's all good, don't get upset in front of her. Just smile and say, "alright, no problem - have a good day!"
> 
> Congrats on asking her though. That's a major accomplishment considering a few weeks ago you were too afraid to. You have to go for it to get anywhere, and of course it's not going to work out with every girl, but if you think of it as a numbers game and approach more girls you will have plenty of success.


She knows that I like her now for sure. If she actually was interested, she would act. I'm pretty sure that she's not into me. Also later in the day we kinda semi-ran into each other (not head on but I'm sure she caught me within her field of vision) and she did not even say "hey" this time. She always says "hey" to me. I didn't say hey to her either but she always says it first anyway.

Also we both work in HR so flirting on the job is likely a huge no-no. Especially not poking fun at her. If she doesn't think it's funny, I could land into hot water and lose my job. This job is more important to me than her.

This whole idea that you can "woo" a woman who isn't interested in you in the first place reaks of PUA. If a woman is attracted, she's attracted. It's best I leave it alone and just conduct business with her as usual (dropping off forms and giving the obligatory "hey"). If she found me attractive, I think she'd take the ball now. Either she doesn't find me attractive or she has a boyfriend (which isn't hard to imagine).

From my experience, whenever I had success with a woman, I just KNEW that she was interested. There was no question about it. And when a woman is interested in a man, she will communicate that interest clearly and try to progress things even (ie. that 33 year old woman who seemed to think I was attractive and looked good on paper. But hated that I didn't talk in-person). Yeah you need to make the first move. In the case of the 33 year old, I flirted with her (I told her she was beautiful). I already drew first blood with J at work by inviting her to Tim Hortons. The ball should be in her court now.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> She knows that I like her now for sure. If she actually was interested, she would act. I'm pretty sure that she's not into me. Also later in the day we kinda semi-ran into each other (not head on but I'm sure she caught me within her field of vision) and she did not even say "hey" this time. She always says "hey" to me. I didn't say hey to her either but she always says it first anyway.
> 
> Also we both work in HR so flirting on the job is likely a huge no-no. Especially not poking fun at her. If she doesn't think it's funny, I could land into hot water and lose my job. This job is more important to me than her.
> 
> This whole idea that you can "woo" a woman who isn't interested in you in the first place reaks of PUA. If a woman is attracted, she's attracted. It's best I leave it alone and just conduct business with her as usual (dropping off forms and giving the obligatory "hey"). If she found me attractive, I think she'd take the ball now. Either she doesn't find me attractive or she has a boyfriend (which isn't hard to imagine).


Sorry, but no one is just born liking you. Sure, they could be attracted to you physically right off the bat, but girls are hesitant creatures. They want security, comfort, etc (among other things, of course). If you don't expose your personality to them then how would they know if they like you or not? You can't expect them to just go after you. That's ridiculous. Most girls will not pursue a guy for a first date. 90% of the time the guy has to win the girl over, so to speak. I'm not talking about standing on his hands and dancing like a monkey. Just being a nice, normal guy and being a little persistent. But if you say you can't flirt with a girl because you'll get fired (completely ridiculous) anyway, then there's no point in trying.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> Sorry, but no one is just born liking you. Sure, they could be attracted to you physically right off the bat, but girls are hesitant creatures. They want security, comfort, etc (among other things, of course). If you don't expose your personality to them then how would they know if they like you or not? You can't expect them to just go after you. That's ridiculous. Most girls will not pursue a guy for a first date. 90% of the time the guy has to win the girl over, so to speak. I'm not talking about standing on his hands and dancing like a monkey. Just being a nice, normal guy and being a little persistent. But if you say you can't flirt with a girl because you'll get fired (completely ridiculous) anyway, then there's no point in trying.


I doubt there's a specific rule in the code of conduct that says "no flirting". But since we both work in HR, where they are very serious about workplace sexual harrassment and code of conduct, it's risky territory.

And yes I understand my physical appearance isn't enough. But how much do you need before you agree to go to Tim Hortons (it's like a 3 min walk. Inside the actual office building) with a guy and chit-chat with him a bit? Work Lunch is more of a "serious" investment I guess (30 minutes). But she goes to the mall near work on her own most of the time anyway. If she thought I was cute and she now knows I like her, why wouldn't she want to ask me for lunch? I work in HR. It's pretty much 90% female. I'm the only eligible bachelor there within her age range in that office. You'd think my field would be a gold mine for meeting women. But most females in my office tend to be older and attached.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> I doubt there's a specific rule in the code of conduct that says "no flirting". But since we both work in HR, where they are very serious about workplace sexual harrassment and code of conduct, it's risky territory.
> 
> And yes I understand my physical appearance isn't enough. But how much do you need before you agree to go to Tim Hortons (it's like a 3 min walk. Inside the actual office building) with a guy and chit-chat with him a bit? Work Lunch is more of a "serious" investment I guess (30 minutes). But she goes to the mall on her own most of the time anyway. If she thought I was cute and she now knows I like her, why wouldn't she want to ask me for lunch? I work in HR. It's pretty much 90% female. I'm the only eligible bachelor there within her age range in that office.


I don't know...ask girls why they don't ask guys out most of the time. Just how it is.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Yeah but I had already asked her once. I think that changes the situation.

I would very much like to hear a female perspective on this.

EDIT: On a side note, the title of this thread is so outdated now. lol. I was too scared to even start a conversation with her. Let alone ask her to coffee when I started this thread.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I talked to my older sister (37/38 ) and she said that if a cute guy she doesn't know that well at work invited her to coffee and she can't make it for whatever reason (ie. she already had tea), she'd counter by suggesting going some other time (and actually mean it) or come back with "how about lunch?" She'd want to get to know him (unless she can tell right away that he's a douchebag or otherwise incompatible). And my sister is not the promiscuous type at all (she's a only in the context of a committed relationship kind of girl) and she's not one to be aggressive/assertive. But if a cute, nice guy likes her, she will meet him half-way regardless instead of letting him do all the work even though she expects the guy to make the first move (which I did do). Women she says are not as passive as men make them out to be. Men have no clue as to what women are like she says. And if during the coffee break or lunch, she finds herself interested in his personality, then things progress from there. If not, they don't. 

So in all likelihood, according to her, either it doesn't seem like J is attracted to me or (perhaps more likely. She is cute remember) she has a boyfriend. And that's perfectly fine because there are plenty of conventionally attractive guys she doesn't find attractive. It's all about personal preference. If she did find me attractive, she would have said yes. My sister says that yes, she has given a guy a chance if she doesn't find him attractive at first. But finds that at the end, it never works out. The physical attraction has to be there. And says that no self-respecting person would want to be with someone who doesn't find them attractive.

My sister feels it wouldn't hurt to still talk to the girl and build rapport. But do not flirt. Do not "tease". Especially in a HR work environment where they take "sexual harrassment" seriously. Being persistent would be creepy at this point.

This is coming from an older woman's perspective. Older women are said to be more assertive and don't play games. But my sister would have done the same if she was still 22 years old.

I'm putting money on J having a boyfriend though. I would be shocked if she didn't have a boyfriend. Unless the whole nice, friendly girl thing is an act. At least with me it makes sense I don't have a girlfriend because A) I don't try hard enough B) I'm quiet and C) I come across as unconfident in my body language (I've had enough positive feedback on my appearance that I don't think my issue is my looks). But a well-adjusted cute girl or guy is going to be in high demand.


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## rgrwng (Aug 25, 2011)

when i started talking to a cute female at work, i was nervous. it had been maybe 13 years since i talked to my first crush (and failed miserably). i said hello to her at work everyday with a positive attitude, but i was also checking out her FB, finding something to talk about with her. now i have a female friend, lol. THERE IS HOPE FOR YOU!


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rgrwng said:


> when i started talking to a cute female at work, i was nervous. it had been maybe 13 years since i talked to my first crush (and failed miserably). i said hello to her at work everyday with a positive attitude, but i was also checking out her FB, finding something to talk about with her. now i have a female friend, lol. THERE IS HOPE FOR YOU!


I already have female friends. Without the benefits. I want to get wifed up. Failing that, friend with benefits or fling. Failing that, getting another lay.

I was working at another location the past two day but I may run into her tomorrow. I'm not going to do anything more than the basic hi, how are yous until she actually takes it further. I have shown clear interest. She has no reason to be shy. And I don't think it's a "prove your worth to me" sort of situation. You either think I'm cute and want to get to know me or you don't. If she doesn't reciprocate, she either has a bf or she's not interested. I'd rather trust a female perspective on this over rymo's. No offense (I appreciate his insight nonetheless). Unless another female chimes in and says that I need to be persistent. I don't feel that women are as different from men as rymo makes them out to be.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

It's hard for me to join the group and say "just do it" because I'm in a similar position as you, but I think you should definitely try to strike up a conversation with her. In fact, it's easier for you because you already have something to talk to her about (i.e. her maybe brother). 
You also wrote in one of your posts that there's no reason for her to be shy around you. Well, there's technically no reason for you to be shy around her, yet you are. Give it a shot before you begin jumping into conclusions.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> It's hard for me to join the group and say "just do it" because I'm in a similar position as you, but I think you should definitely try to strike up a conversation with her. In fact, it's easier for you because you already have something to talk to her about (i.e. her maybe brother).
> You also wrote in one of your posts that there's no reason for her to be shy around you. Well, there's technically no reason for you to be shy around her, yet you are. Give it a shot before you begin jumping into conclusions.


How was I being shy? I asked her if she'd join me for coffee. That takes a lot of courage. I've already put more effort into this than she has. Which leads me to believe that she's not interested and if I push my luck, it's going to get into creepy territory.

I also noticed that I forgot my forms at the other work location (and it's not absolutely critical that I deliver them right away. But yeah I did **** up by not remembering to take them with me. But unless she grills me about it, I'm alright). So I won't be dropping anything off for her until the week after the next. I'm only at the same office she's at a couple days a week. I'm at the other work location part of the time. Good chance I might still run into her anyway before then since I'll be there for the next three work days.


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## Jollygoggles (Mar 3, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> It's hard for me to join the group and say "just do it" because I'm in a similar position as you


Our resident feminist has a crush, eh?

I have this mental image of you as a bit of a battleaxe so it's hard to imagine you being coy. Aww.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> How was I being shy? I asked her if she'd join me for coffee. That takes a lot of courage. I've already put more effort into this than she has. Which leads me to believe that she's not interested and if I push my luck, it's going to get into creepy territory.


Didn't read that part. If you asked her out and she said no, I wouldn't persist either. But then again I haven't read the post/don't know the whole story.



Jollygoggles said:


> Our resident feminist has a crush, eh?
> 
> I have this mental image of you as a bit of a battleaxe so it's hard to imagine you being coy. Aww.


Hey, feminists have feelings, too, you know. 
Thank you for calling me a battleaxe, though. Definitely not an accurate depiction of "real life" me, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Didn't read that part. If you asked her out and she said no, I wouldn't persist either. But then again I haven't read the post/don't know the whole story.


I wouldn't really consider it "asking her out". I let her know that I was going to Tim Hortons (which is located right in our office building) and asked her if she'd like to join. Very casual invite. It's not like a standard coffee date invite. But I'd imagine that if she was interested, she would try to meet me half-way. "Oh I already have tea. But some other time we can go for tea." Or "hey do you wanna go to the mall with me during lunch?" She hasn't reciprocated anything so I don't see the point in pushing further.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> I wouldn't really consider it "asking her out". I let her know that I was going to Tim Hortons (which is located right in our office building) and asked her if she'd like to join. Very casual invite. It's not like a standard coffee date invite. But I'd imagine that if she was interested, she would try to meet me half-way.


Okay. I found the post. From what I read, you never had an actual conversation with her, and she had reasons to say no (she already had tea!). 
I think she doesn't have a crush on you right now. That doesn't mean that if you chit-chat her a bit (i.e. talk about her brother, work or what have you) she might be more willing to join you. It wouldn't be creepy at all to ask her one more time after you've actually talked to her for more than ten minutes (arbitrary number I'm using to try and make a point). 
Also, I don't think it makes it obvious at all that you like her because you were on your way to get coffee and asked if she wanted to join. Even if it did, though, you can't expect everyone to function the way you do. You liked her at first sight, and maybe she didn't. It's not an end-all sign. It just means you're going to have to try a bit harder to get her interested. Because you're the one interested (or showing any signs of it atm), you need to be more "aggressive" in your approach.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Okay. I found the post. From what I read, you never had an actual conversation with her, and she had reasons to say no (she already had tea!).
> I think she doesn't have a crush on you right now. That doesn't mean that if you chit-chat her a bit (i.e. talk about her brother, work or what have you) she might be more willing to join you. It wouldn't be creepy at all to ask her one more time after you've actually talked to her for more than ten minutes (arbitrary number I'm using to try and make a point).
> Also, I don't think it makes it obvious at all that you like her because you were on your way to get coffee and asked if she wanted to join. Even if it did, though, you can't expect everyone to function the way you do. You liked her at first sight, and maybe she didn't. It's not an end-all sign. It just means you're going to have to try a bit harder to get her interested. Because you're the one interested (or showing any signs of it atm), you need to be more "aggressive" in your approach.


If she doesn't find me attractive, what's the point in pursuing? I don't want to be with someone that doesn't find me attractive. You barely talked to your crush at work but if he asked you to coffee, you'd jump at the chance. See what I mean?

Plus women are not attracted to desperation. I'm not going to put myself in the "*****" position. I made my intentions very clear (I never ask anyone to join me for coffee. I have a reputation at the office for being the quiet guy). She's not taking it. So I next her.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> If she doesn't find me attractive, what's the point in pursuing? I don't want to be with someone that doesn't find me attractive. You barely talked to your crush at work but if he asked you to coffee, you'd jump at the chance. See what I mean?


I didn't even notice my crush at first, though. I was introduced to him and went on with my day not even thinking about him. He's not attractive by conventional standards at all. It wasn't until I heard a few of his conversations and noticed how funny and smart he was that I became interested. That attracted me to him, and then everything else about him all of a sudden became attractive. And now, yes, I'd jump at the opportunity of him asking me out for coffee. 
I see what you mean, but that's not how physical attraction works for everyone.


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## Droidsteel (Mar 22, 2012)

phoenixwright said:


> You are so out of touch with the SA guys on here and I think their pissed off with your canned pua talk


Rymo dosent really go on about pua stuff..

Just about getting off your *** and getting things done. Something we all need to hear.


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## babylemonade (Nov 24, 2011)

I see a girl I'm besotted with about once a week at work. I'm 29, a bit of a state, and not confident at all. She's 20, shy, mumbly and hard to talk to. But I try (with all the two minutes a week I see her) to try chat seem happy and friendly, be laidback and kind. I have no idea how to go about making her know I like her, or to get further given the lack of opportunity I have to see her. I imagine my interest in her will only ending up hurting me, but hey...

If you can't take the risk, you don't deserve the reward or something. I try bear this in mind. You should too. Could be worse, you could be in my situation where contact is so limited.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I barely have any actual opportunity to strike up conversation with her. If I pass her by the office when I'm on my way somewhere or she is, what am I supposed to do, stop in my tracks and start a real conversation (beyond the standard hi, how are you?) with her? You know how awkward it would seem if she did not welcome it and felt like her personal space was violated ("umm I need to head to my destination now. Why are you stopping me in my tracks")? I've already made my intentions clear and she doesn't seem interested in reciprocating. I deliver forms to her like once a week max on average (and since I forgot to get them yesterday, a week is being skipped). I barely have any opportunity to see her other than running into her. No one at my office randomly goes up to me to start conversation beyond "hi", "how are you?" except the people I directly work with on a daily basis. I do not work with her. We just share an office and work in the same department.

Other than pickup material, I don't know where guys get this idea that if you persist and persist and persist, eventually a girl will change her mind and actually start to like you. I have been told I need to persist because a girl like that has lots of options. Well why doesn't she take those other options then? She probably is! Or has! A cute girl like her could get a tall (something I can never be because I'm short), ripped, muscular studly alpha male. I'm willing to bet that she has a boyfriend. You want to give false hope to socially awkward losers that a woman that in-demand is going to choose us over better quality stock if only we just flirted with her, teased her a bit and made her laugh? lol. Go right ahead. This isn't Big Bang Theory. This is real-life. Calichick gets a lot of **** on here. I'm not her fan either. But what she speaks is real-life.

It does not work this way. Unattractive guys or at least guys who don't make the "alpha male" cut tell themselves this so that they give themselves hope and think they actually have a chance. It's funny seeing these guys at bars who are below my level in terms of looks approach these total knock-out babes at bars. It's all becasue pickup material is implanting false hope into the minds of these jokers. I already knew from the start that they lost.


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## babylemonade (Nov 24, 2011)

Ouch. That's negative but true.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Do you have any photos of her?


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

komorikun said:


> Do you have any photos of her?


Nope. Sure there are hotter women out there. For sure. She's more of a girl-next-door cute brunette type. But those girls are very much in demand. I'm dropping it. There is no way that casually talking with her in this situation is going to look anything but desperate. People just don't walk up to people they don't know very well and chat with them or stop them in the hallway. I don't fundamentally "get" office socialization though so maybe it's just me. People have pointed out in the past that I don't socialize at the office. How the hell am I suppposed to do that? Go up to random people and start conversations? It's not like people are doing the same with me. It's never more than "hi, how are you?" maybe a "how was your weekend?" thrown in for good measure. Most people in the office are in the mid-late 30s and 40s+ demographic. That doesn't help either.


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