# Wellbutrin XL



## riptide991

Sw


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## jakeforpresident

I wonder if this effect would be increased if you weren't on Zoloft, which is known to have a high incidence rate of anorgasmia and anejaculation.

I personally have delayed orgasm even when not on any meds. wellbutrin might be worth a try, especially since its not as activating as ritalin


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## basuraeuropea

i wish i were able to take wellbutrin but i freakkkkk out when taking it. panic attack central 24/7.


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## GotAnxiety

So kehcorpz can you still orgasm on zoloft with wellbutrin? I've only managed to take wellbutrin for one week at the time i think it would work best in conjunction with an ssri to cancel out the negatives I still need try that will be my plan b. You don't experience any side effects on the combination sweating , weaknesss, insomia? Does that even bring back the feeling?


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## CD700

Kehcorpz
I do remember reading your posts and the one thing that comes across is you expect way to much from medication. This is probably not boner thread material but IMO you need to stop changing your medication in the pursuit of perfection and do some real life ground work buddy


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## Inshallah

For me, it was Impotence pill :teeth


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## Inshallah

Yes, all kinds of strange things happen, I've even heard of people with increased sexual functioning on SSRI's haha


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## imrj

am on of them....lexapro gave me the biggest libido boost ever than any other med by far and even more than testosterone injections.....its actually not as uncommon as you think.....is just that good sides arent reported nearly as much as bad sides, which people promptly report and dont hesitate to complain about


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## basuraeuropea

imrj said:


> am on of them....lexapro gave me the biggest libido boost ever than any other med by far and even more than testosterone injections.....its actually not as uncommon as you think.....is just that good sides arent reported nearly as much as bad sides, which people promptly report and dont hesitate to complain about


i had a great time sexually while on paxil for ten years before it stopped working, so i'm another who benefited positively with regard to sexual functioning and anxiolysis while on an ssri.

and, yeah, i agree, i've found that most people who post experiences on online medicine rating sites tend to be those who had adverse reactions or unfavorable side effects. i know that when paxil worked wonders for me and provided for no sexual dysfunction that i never sought to review the drug online. it never crossed my mind - i was busy living life and such.



kehcorpz said:


> I also saw some showing that Mirtazapine raises tnf-alpha, that's pretty interesting.


and this is interesting because remeron/mirtazapine gave me problems with erections.


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## Inshallah

imrj said:


> am on of them....lexapro gave me the biggest libido boost ever than any other med by far and even more than testosterone injections.....its actually not as uncommon as you think.....is just that good sides arent reported nearly as much as bad sides, which people promptly report and dont hesitate to complain about


I did use "functioning". SSRI's also boost my libido, but the functioning after the libido phase is killed entirely. (genital anesthesia and anorgasmia)

Not on an SSRI: I hardly want to have sex, but could if I wanted to

On an SSRI: I want to have sex a lot, but can't

That's basically it.


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## Inshallah

Have to add, Mirtazapine also gave me erection problems and is actually used to lessen erections in sex offenders.

So you see


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> Have to add, Mirtazapine also gave me erection problems and is actually used to lessen erections in sex offenders.
> 
> So you see


ha! another who had problems with erections on mirtazapine!



Inshallah said:


> I did use "functioning". SSRI's also boost my libido, but the functioning after the libido phase is killed entirely. (genital anesthesia and anorgasmia)
> 
> Not on an SSRI: I hardly want to have sex, but could if I wanted to
> 
> On an SSRI: I want to have sex a lot, but can't
> 
> That's basically it.


while on paroxetine my entire sexual spectrum was unimpaired, enhanced even, from desire, to erections, to orgasms - all perfect. sadly, after my ten year stint of bliss with the drug, i haven't been able to reproduce the same effect with another ssri and paroxetine still doesn't work. :sigh:


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## Inshallah

That is basically my ultimate fantasy haha. SSRI's help me so much (I never expected so much effect from legally prescribed medications) in every way possible, if I could avoid the genital anesthesia and anorgasmia I would be on high dose SSRI for life.


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## Inshallah

Have any of you (who had the sexual issues with SSRI's) perhaps tried to alleviate those SSRI sex-problems with one of the dopamine agonists? (ropinirole, pramipexole, ...)

Wellbutrin can help a little, but not enough. Ritalin can cause ED.

I think of all meds available, the dopamine agonists are the most pro sexual ones. But the combination SSRI-dopamine agonist isn't used much, if at all, for that purpose. Not sure if that is because it doesn't help much neither or because of the agonist's extra side effects.


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> That is basically my ultimate fantasy haha. SSRI's help me so much (I never expected so much effect from legally prescribed medications) in every way possible, if I could avoid the genital anesthesia and anorgasmia I would be on high dose SSRI for life.


have you tried any of the antiepileptic drugs / anticonvulsants? tiagabine/gabitril and levetiracetam/keppra are supposed to be good for anxiety and not very harsh at all on sexual functioning.

i'm investigating the class of drugs after pregabalin/lyrica and gabapentin/neurontin worked wonnnnnnders but provided for a host of side effects, complete sexual dysfunction amongst.


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> Have any of you (who had the sexual issues with SSRI's) perhaps tried to alleviate those SSRI sex-problems with one of the dopamine agonists? (ropinirole, pramipexole, ...)
> 
> Wellbutrin can help a little, but not enough. Ritalin can cause ED.
> 
> I think of all meds available, the dopamine agonists are the most pro sexual ones. But the combination SSRI-dopamine agonist isn't used much, if at all, for that purpose. Not sure if that is because it doesn't help much neither or because of the agonist's extra side effects.


i was on ropinirole while on escitalopram and it boosted libido *slightly* but did nothing for erectile dysfunction and anorgasmia. i was at a relatively high dose of 4mg a day of ropinirole - the max recommended dose for restless legs syndrome indicated by the fda here in the states. i was taking 20mg of escitalopram at the time, which controlled anxiety fairly well, but... :sigh: 10mg of escitalopram daily didn't provide for such problems but also didn't control my anxiety at all.

so, in summation, i'd posit that the dopamine agonists don't help much - ropinirole didn't for me, anyway.


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## Inshallah

No haven't tried any out of that class. But it would be for depression and basically depression only. My social anxiety, general anxiety and panic attacks are mostly gone after my sympathectomy. I even may be a bit too calm/relaxed now LOL

I'm not sure of how much use, if any, anti-epileptics would be for depression.


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> No haven't tried any out of that class. But it would be for depression and basically depression only. My social anxiety, general anxiety and panic attacks are mostly gone after my sympathectomy. I even may be a bit too calm/relaxed now LOL
> 
> I'm not sure of how much use, if any, anti-epileptics would be for depression.


ah, gotcha. and, so why are you taking ssris and not, say, emsam, the selegeline transdermal patch, as a random example? it's supposed to be great for depression and for the vast majority, anecdotally anyhow, doesn't impair sexual functioning.

moclobemide and tianeptine also popped into mind for major depressive disorder. lamotrigine is another option, and while it is an antiepileptic, it is used often as an antidepressant, typically amongst the bipolar crowd, but effective for many nonetheless.

shame buproprion didn't work out for you.


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## Inshallah

basuraeuropea said:


> i was on ropinirole while on escitalopram and it boosted libido *slightly* but did nothing for erectile dysfunction and anorgasmia. i was at a relatively high dose of 4mg a day of ropinirole - the max recommended dose for restless legs syndrome indicated by the fda here in the states. i was taking 20mg of escitalopram at the time, which controlled anxiety fairly well, but... :sigh: 10mg of escitalopram daily didn't provide for such problems but also didn't control my anxiety at all.
> 
> so, in summation, i'd posit that the dopamine agonists don't help much - ropinirole didn't for me, anyway.


Yes it was more hope than reality. At least you've had your 10 years of the Holy Grail


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## basuraeuropea

i'll have to PM you later regarding the sympathectomy and what exactly one can expect aside from blushing and sweating less. i suffer from severe muscle tension when anxious and i'm not sure a sympathectomy would address this issue at all. i know the beta-blockers and alpha-adrenergic agonists don't.


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## Inshallah

basuraeuropea said:


> ah, gotcha. and, so why are you taking ssris and not, say, emsam, the selegeline transdermal patch, as a random example? it's supposed to be great for depression and for the vast majority, anecdotally anyhow, doesn't impair sexual functioning.
> 
> moclobemide and tianeptine also popped into mind for major depressive disorder. lamotrigine is another option, and while it is an antiepileptic, it is used often as an antidepressant, typically amongst the bipolar crowd, but effective for many nonetheless.
> 
> shame buproprion didn't work out for you.


Emsam is not available here in Belgium. It is available in the Selegiline tablet version for Parkinson but they can't legally prescribe that version for psychiatric purposes, I've already inquired about that one.

Moclobemide I've been on already, sexual problems just as well. Perhaps a little less than with SSRI's but then again, it doesn't work as well. Tianeptine, not available here.

Lamotrigine is something that I may try out in the future, you basically only hear good things about it, which is very rare :teeth


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> Yes it was more hope than reality. At least you've had your 10 years of the Holy Grail


yeah, but i'm still way young - it's not like i'm 85. i need a decent balance of anxiolysis and adequate sexual functioning.

"Sexuality is an integral part of the personality of everyone: man, woman and child; it is a basic need and aspect of being human that cannot be separated from other aspects life. " (World Health Organization, 1975). this statement has been my anthem when working with psychiatrists as they need to know that sexual dysfunction is imperative to psychosocial well being.


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## Inshallah

basuraeuropea said:


> i'll have to PM you later regarding the sympathectomy and what exactly one can expect aside from blushing and sweating less. i suffer from severe muscle tension when anxious and i'm not sure a sympathectomy would address this issue at all. i know the beta-blockers and alpha-adrenergic agonists don't.


Ask away. I don't think it would help for that neither though.

I earlier said I had NO side effects from the sympathectomy, well I now have 1, I'm a little more tired/less energetic than before. This was of course to be expected with less adrenaline floating around. But I'd rather have to drink some more coffee to get me going, than having to deal with excess adrenaline all of the time like I had to do before. Drinking more coffee gives me the control, whereas before, it controlled me.


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> Emsam is not available here in Belgium. It is available in the Selegiline tablet version for Parkinson but they can't legally prescribe that version for psychiatric purposes, I've already inquired about that one.
> 
> Moclobemide I've been on already, sexual problems just as well. Perhaps a little less than with SSRI's but then again, it doesn't work as well. Tianeptine, not available here.
> 
> Lamotrigine is something that I may try out in the future, you basically only hear good things about it, which is very rare :teeth


tianeptine and moclobemide aren't available here in the states either. the selegeline tablet has a purported higher rate of sexual sides than the transdermal patch for whatever reason.

memantine is used off-label here for depression as well - it's a more potent glutaminergic antagonist than lamotrigine with additional serotonergic (5ht3 antagonist), dopaminergic (d2 agonist), and cholinergic (nAChR antagonist) activity.

edit: memantine gave me sexual sides, though they apparently aren't common, although glutamate is highly implicated in the sexual response cycle, so i suppose it makes sense.


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## Inshallah

basuraeuropea said:


> yeah, but i'm still way young - it's not like i'm 85. i need a decent balance of anxiolysis and adequate sexual functioning.
> 
> "Sexuality is an integral part of the personality of everyone: man, woman and child; it is a basic need and aspect of being human that cannot be separated from other aspects life. " (World Health Organization, 1975). this statement has been my anthem when working with psychiatrists as they need to know that sexual dysfunction is imperative to psychosocial well being.


Definitely. They are a bit too ok in sexually handicapping people now. 
It's not their fault the meds do that, but they can put more effort in trying to overcome the issues. Most don't seem to care about this.


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> Ask away. I don't think it would help for that neither though.
> 
> I earlier said I had NO side effects from the sympathectomy, well I now have 1, I'm a little more tired/less energetic than before. This was of course to be expected with less adrenaline floating around. But I'd rather have to drink some more coffee to get me going, than having to deal with excess adrenaline all of the time like I had to do before. Drinking more coffee gives me the control, whereas before, it controlled me.


yeah, i figured that it wouldn't help much with muscle tension/spasticity. shame, because i would undergo the procedure if it were to.

glad it worked out for you, though.


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## Inshallah

basuraeuropea said:


> tianeptine and moclobemide aren't available here in the states either. the selegeline tablet has a purported higher rate of sexual sides than the transdermal patch for whatever reason.
> 
> memantine is used off-label here for depression as well - it's a more potent glutaminergic antagonist than lamotrigine with additional serotonergic (5ht3 antagonist), dopaminergic (d2 agonist), and cholinergic (nAChR antagonist) activity.
> 
> edit: memantine gave me sexual sides, though they apparently aren't common.


Memantine doesn't sound like something that I would be able to get prescribed here. Ritalin, no problem. But Memantine, I would surprised if it's even known around here.


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## swim

do you want a real boner pill? try high dose trazodone...


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> Memantine doesn't sound like something that I would be able to get prescribed here. Ritalin, no problem. But Memantine, I would surprised if it's even known around here.


yeah, i'm from europe - spain - and nearly everyone i've spoken with in spain and in europe in general has to get memantine through online pharmacies. that, and most are using the drug to prevent tolerance to stimulants, primarily, rather than using the drug as a primary (or adjunctive) antidepressant and or as a treatment option for anxiety-spectrum disorders.


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## basuraeuropea

swim said:


> do you want a real boner pill? try high dose trazodone...


true story, but i have use it prn and super sporadically at that as it quickly loses its effectiveness.


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## Inshallah

basuraeuropea said:


> yeah, i figured that it wouldn't help much with muscle tension/spasticity. shame, because i would undergo the procedure if it were to.
> 
> glad it worked out for you, though.


Where and what exactly is the muscle tension you have?

I did have or still have my facial, shoulder and neck muscles tensing up often and then of course causing discomfort.

But these things idd aren't helped by anything anti-adrenaline. Gaba'ergics and perhaps serotonergics are the only things relaxing muscles imo.


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> Where and what exactly is the muscle tension you have?
> 
> I did have or still have my facial, shoulder and neck muscles tensing up often and then of course causing discomfort.
> 
> But these things idd aren't helped by anything anti-adrenaline. Gaba'ergics and perhaps serotonergics are the only things relaxing muscles imo.


muscle tension for me is largely confined to the areas you described, with a high propensity for the neck/esophageal muscles. it can be so bad that it provides for the all-too-common lump in the the throat sensation which triggers the gag reflex and makes me vomit/dry-heave if not controlled. and so, yeah, in my experience the serotonergics and gabaergics have proven most helpful. beta-blockers and alpha-adrenergic agonists didn't help at all.


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## Inshallah

basuraeuropea said:


> muscle tension for me is largely confined to the areas you described, with a high propensity for the neck/esophageal muscles. it can be so bad that it provides for the all-too-common lump in the the throat sensation which triggers the gag reflex and makes me vomit/dry-heave if not controlled. and so, yeah, in my experience the serotonergics and gabaergics have proven most helpful. beta-blockers and alpha-adrenergic agonists didn't help at all.


Yep, I have the same things. I can't say it doesn't help at all because it does help some. Clearly, I'm generally more relaxed now so that does help some.

But it won't eliminate those things, not like a benzo would. For anesthesia, they also use a gaba'ergic to lessen muscular tension everywhere on the body.


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## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> and this is interesting because remeron/mirtazapine gave me problems with erections.





Inshallah said:


> Have to add, Mirtazapine also gave me erection problems and is actually used to lessen erections in sex offenders.
> 
> So you see


That makes sense then! Mirtazapine raises TNF-alpha so you get erectile problems. Wellbutrin lowers it so it should in theory help your erections. At least it does in my case, but the body isn't that simple in all cases.


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## riptide991

Inshallah said:


> Have any of you (who had the sexual issues with SSRI's) perhaps tried to alleviate those SSRI sex-problems with one of the dopamine agonists? (ropinirole, pramipexole, ...)
> 
> Wellbutrin can help a little, but not enough. Ritalin can cause ED.
> 
> I think of all meds available, the dopamine agonists are the most pro sexual ones. But the combination SSRI-dopamine agonist isn't used much, if at all, for that purpose. Not sure if that is because it doesn't help much neither or because of the agonist's extra side effects.


I don't think Dopamine is the answer for sexual issues. I mean it is part of the process but there are many things involved including Nitric Oxide. SSRI's technically lower some TNF-alpha too but they do other things that counter its effects.

What I find particularly interesting about Wellbutrin is that DHEA-s increases. This alone can have a good impact on sexual gains as it is pretty much a precursor hormone for all the bodies useful hormones. Couple that with lowering of tnf-alpha and increase of Nitric Oxide, it's going to be a good combo. Now, I have never taken wellbutrin on it's own so it's possible that Zoloft is also adding something to the mix to provide these results for me.



basuraeuropea said:


> ah, gotcha. and, so why are you taking ssris and not, say, emsam, the selegeline transdermal patch, as a random example? it's supposed to be great for depression and for the vast majority, anecdotally anyhow, doesn't impair sexual functioning.
> 
> moclobemide and tianeptine also popped into mind for major depressive disorder. lamotrigine is another option, and while it is an antiepileptic, it is used often as an antidepressant, typically amongst the bipolar crowd, but effective for many nonetheless.
> 
> shame buproprion didn't work out for you.


Another thing to consider is that the generic version of bupropion seems to be a dud. So some people never realize it could have worked for them. No generics have been approved in Canada because they don't meet requirements. Yet companies like TEVA who also operate in Canada got approved in the U.S.


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## swim

basuraeuropea said:


> true story, but i have use it prn and super sporadically at that as it quickly loses its effectiveness.


...talk about priapism


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## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> That makes sense then! Mirtazapine raises TNF-alpha so you get erectile problems. Wellbutrin lowers it so it should in theory help your erections. At least it does in my case, but the body isn't that simple in all cases.


it definitely should, and probably would, although my anxiety is severe enough to warrant staying away from the drug. not to say that i haven't tried it, as i have and responded poorly with anxiety greatly exacerbated. panic 24/7 on wellbutrin. AHH!!


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## Inshallah

I know nothing about Memantine and I don't think I'll ever get it prescribed over here, at least not now. It does sound like an interesting drug. People have basically no side effects it seems.

What do you guys think about Mirtazapine 45 mg + Lexapro 20 mg + Ritalin 10 mg 3-4x/day for depression?

That was a a triple combo I had in mind for myself.


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## Inshallah

Or swapping the Ritalin for Wellbutrin might also be a possibility.

That might even work better in the long run.


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## riptide991

Inshallah said:


> Or swapping the Ritalin for Wellbutrin might also be a possibility.
> 
> That might even work better in the long run.


Never tried Ritalin, but it seems like you'd be covering all your basis with that combination. You'd have the serotonin increase but would allow 5-ht1a to get the most benefits and block the bad receptors. Mirtazapine has also been shown to indirectly raise dopamine in some. And well Ritalin or Wellbutrin would take care of norepinephrine and dopamine.


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## arnie

kehcorpz said:


> Even when I'm doing something else and not focusing on it I will later notice it's still up and alert. Now that's weird, but I'm not complaining.


I don't need a pill for this. It happens everytime I go commando :b


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## Inshallah

kehcorpz said:


> Never tried Ritalin, but it seems like you'd be covering all your basis with that combination. You'd have the serotonin increase but would allow 5-ht1a to get the most benefits and block the bad receptors. Mirtazapine has also been shown to indirectly raise dopamine in some. And well Ritalin or Wellbutrin would take care of norepinephrine and dopamine.


Yeah it should work well. Probably even better with Wellbutrin than with Ritalin. (in the long run)


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## riptide991

Inshallah said:


> Yeah it should work well. Probably even better with Wellbutrin than with Ritalin. (in the long run)


That's one of the reasons I don't want to do Ritalin or Adderal. I hear a lot of people get depression in the long run. Plus they can potential put you into a euphoria. The problem with that is once you feel so good for a while you will never want to go back to feeling normal again.


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## Inshallah

kehcorpz said:


> That's one of the reasons I don't want to do Ritalin or Adderal. I hear a lot of people get depression in the long run. Plus they can potential put you into a euphoria. The problem with that is once you feel so good for a while you will never want to go back to feeling normal again.


Correct on both counts. I already personally experienced both on Ritalin by itself so it's probably the potential junkie in me speaking when I'm considering using it again :sus


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## riptide991

Inshallah said:


> Correct on both counts. I already personally experienced both on Ritalin by itself so it's probably the potential junkie in me speaking when I'm considering using it again :sus


We've all been there! My addiction was weed and to an extent alcohol. Alcohol and weed was the super combo. Although alcohol I only did in the evenings while weed I did all day. Even took breaks at work to go vaporize with my buds in the car. Haha. We would drive off behind warehouses and toke away.

I must say today is day 13 of 300mg and I actually felt a bit motivated to the point where I did my workout. It was pretty good too because I really focused on form and didn't have my mind racing about other stuff. That was a big problem for me, if you're doing really heavy squats and you are thinking about everything but the exercise you can get yourself hurt heh.


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## GotAnxiety

Im taking Adderall XR right now im experiencing some harsh side effects for me i get weight gain blurred vision heart sometimes unable too relax acne dryskin yeah for sure it can cause depression sooner or later, overall i think an ssri + dri would be superior therapy in the longrun SSRI are almost like the opposite i get sharper vision loseweight lower bloodpressure improved memory. only good thing about the amp`s is they can turn ya into a beast in the sack i`d be doubtful if you could actually manage too woe a girl on them considering all the social problems they can cause.


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## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Im taking Adderall XR right now im experiencing some harsh side effects for me i get weight gain blurred vision heart sometimes unable too relax acne dryskin yeah for sure it can cause depression sooner or later, overall i think an ssri + dri would be superior therapy in the longrun SSRI are almost like the opposite i get sharper vision loseweight lower bloodpressure improved memory. only good thing about the amp`s is they can turn ya into a beast in the sack i`d be doubtful if you could actually manage too woe a girl on them considering all the social problems they can cause.


Social problems? I heard from a lot of people that it makes them pro-social and less inhibited.


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## basuraeuropea

GotAnxiety said:


> ... overall i think an ssri + dri would be superior therapy in the longrun.


i don't think there is a pure dri on the market. and wellbutrin's dopaminergic activity pales in comparison to its noradrenergic activity.


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## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> i don't think there is a pure dri on the market. and wellbutrin's dopaminergic activity pales in comparison to its noradrenergic activity.


It's true, but in some of the studies I read they basically had SOME people getting really high DAT saturation. It's highly individual. In the end the results will be the average. And while sertraline is also a mild cyb2b6 inhibitor it may spare the bupropion from metabolizing to hydroxybupropion, more likely just slow it down. And well bupropion gives 100% inhibition. You could even technically take a specific drug that inhibits cyp2b6. Some of it will also use Cyp2c19 but not as much as the 2b6 enzyme. You could block both and get the ultimate effect of the drug. It's likely the seizures are associated with one of its metabolites. But of course they don't really know. Even at small doses it seems to

Good read, but a bit long.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC514842/


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## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> It's true, but in some of the studies I read they basically had SOME people getting really high DAT saturation. It's highly individual. In the end the results will be the average. And while sertraline is also a mild cyb2b6 inhibitor it may spare the bupropion from metabolizing to hydroxybupropion, more likely just slow it down. And well bupropion gives 100% inhibition. You could even technically take a specific drug that inhibits cyp2b6. Some of it will also use Cyp2c19 but not as much as the 2b6 enzyme. You could block both and get the ultimate effect of the drug. It's likely the seizures are associated with one of its metabolites. But of course they don't really know. Even at small doses it seems to
> 
> Good read, but a bit long.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC514842/


just finished reading - very good read. i wish i were able to take bupropion or a similar drug and have the same response you've had.


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## Inshallah

GotAnxiety said:


> Im taking Adderall XR right now im experiencing some harsh side effects for me i get weight gain blurred vision heart sometimes unable too relax acne dryskin yeah for sure it can cause depression sooner or later, overall i think an ssri + dri would be superior therapy in the longrun SSRI are almost like the opposite i get sharper vision loseweight lower bloodpressure improved memory. only good thing about the amp`s is they can turn ya into a beast in the sack i`d be doubtful if you could actually manage too woe a girl on them considering all the social problems they can cause.


Yep!


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## Inshallah

kehcorpz said:


> Social problems? I heard from a lot of people that it makes them pro-social and less inhibited.


Maybe the first few days. Stimulants are notorious for making you into an aggressive, paranoid ******* sooner rather than later. You get maybe 2-3 days of the good, than after half a week it goes to **** already. (with continous use as an AD)

Other than the junkie in me wanting to feel that dopamine rush again, I really know better and shouldn't use them again, ever :idea


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## swim

stablon also boosts sex drive and you can experience prolongued orgasm if you take it


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## Inshallah

Also not available over here :afr


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## basuraeuropea

Inshallah said:


> Also not available over here :afr


here either - you can have it shipped from overseas but the potential of not receiving the medication on time due to various factors once one already has already been taking it is pretty scary and apparently tianeptine is not a drug known for a mild discontinuation/withdrawal.


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## swim

basuraeuropea said:


> here either - you can have it shipped from overseas but the potential of not receiving the medication on time due to various factors once one already has already been taking it is pretty scary and apparently tianeptine is not a drug known for a mild discontinuation/withdrawal.


I stopped it cold turkey after one month of intake (3x12,5 a day) and had no withdrawal symptoms, but after two "honeymoon" weeks the pleasant effects went away and my anxiety worsended.


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## basuraeuropea

swim said:


> I stopped it cold turkey after one month of intake (3x12,5 a day) and had no withdrawal symptoms, but after two "honeymoon" weeks the pleasant effects went away and my anxiety worsended.


yeah - but i've stopped an ssri/snri after taking it only for a month and not experienced discontinuation symptoms - (i've also tapered off an ssri after taking it for many months and it was hell). anyhow, my anxiety would skyrocket if i were not placed onto something else and so i've always been placed on another anxiolytic, but one month isn't a terrible amount of time given that tianeptine, much like ssris/snris, takes several weeks to reach maximum efficacy.

that aside, i've read online of people posting that tianeptine can 'poop out' as quickly as mirtazapine. others still have posted that they need frequent dose escalations, while i've also read anecdotes by some who find the drug anxiogenic and others who find it anxiolytic. still, others, like yourself, find it anxiolytic or neutral initially before it becomes anxiogenic.

either way, if i were to take the drug i'd like to give it a fair trial and by giving it a fair trial i'd have to take it for several months unless i were to react adversely and thus comes in the issue of supply - i can't go to my local pharmacist/chemist and have the drug readily available and that's a scary thought when one has anxiety as severe as i do.


----------



## swim

basuraeuropea said:


> yeah - but i've stopped an ssri/snri after taking it only for a month and not experienced discontinuation symptoms - (i've also tapered off an ssri after taking it for many months and it was hell). anyhow, my anxiety would skyrocket if i were not placed onto something else and so i've always been placed on another anxiolytic, but one month isn't a terrible amount of time given that tianeptine, much like ssris/snris, takes several weeks to reach maximum efficacy.
> 
> that aside, i've read online of people posting that *tianeptine can 'poop out' as quickly as mirtazapine*. others still have posted that they need frequent dose escalations, while i've also read anecdotes by some who find the drug anxiogenic and others who find it anxiolytic. still, others, like yourself, find it anxiolytic or neutral initially before it becomes anxiogenic.
> 
> either way, if i were to take the drug i'd like to give it a fair trial and by giving it a fair trial i'd have to take it for several months unless i were to react adversely and thus comes in the issue of supply - i can't go to my local pharmacist/chemist and have the drug readily available and that's a scary thought when one has anxiety as severe as i do.


yeah, that's right, even more quickly


----------



## riptide991

Day 18 on 300mg. I'm starting to see the anhedonia disappear slowly. I usually know when I start playing video games again. After mirtazapine pooped out the anhedonia came back with a vengeance. I mean I didn't like doing anything, I rather stare at a wall then play video games. Last night I played Borderlands for 4 hours without even realizing it. It's a good sign because anhedonia usually ends up making my depression way worse in the long run.

Oh and I'm not constantly watching porn! Even though I'm still horny I think the anhedonia is what leads me to watch porn. Now I'm horny still but if I supplement my time with something exciting and focus on that then I don't even notice it.


----------



## riptide991

Day 19. I went to bed at around 1am and ended up waking up at 4am. I couldn't sleep after that. I had this wired feeling. I usually take my zoloft/wellbutrin at 6-7am and go back to sleep if need be. Anyways, I've had this wired feeling all day. I know when I'm wired because my eyes feel weird and are really wide open. So yah even though I was wired I felt fatigued so I had a green tea in the morning, and then decided to have coffee. One thing lead to another and I'm down 3 cups. I had a slight jittery feeling but it's starting to fade. Might have been because I didn't eat for a while and finally had some food, and it's fading away after eating.


----------



## riptide991

Hmm I'm thinking about dropping zoloft to 50mg tomorrow morning. I want to see if Wellbutrin will have a stronger effect if I'm taking less. Tough decision.


----------



## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> Hmm I'm thinking about dropping zoloft to 50mg tomorrow morning. I want to see if Wellbutrin will have a stronger effect if I'm taking less. Tough decision.


that's a large drop. how long have you been taking zoloft at 150mg/day? you might experience ssri discontinuation syndrome symptoms. that, and your anxiety might increase - i mean, you only got a few hours of sleep last night. the ssri may likely be offsetting some of the anxiety that wellbutrin can cause. i'd be hesitant.

more importantly, what is it that you want amplified by reducing the ssri dose?


----------



## riptide991

Oh I didn't update my sig, I've actually been on 100mg for a while. I did experience a bit more anhedonia initially from 150 to 100 but it's fine now, still not where I want it to be. I wanted to amplify the motivation/energy portion. As I mentioned I have this really relaxed muscle feeling. And it's making me lazy. Feels like back when I used to do Purple Kush and I'd sit on the sofa being super high and watching tv haha. And while my anhedonia is getting better it's awfully slow. When I initially took sertraline and mirtazapine it disappeared quite quickly. I guess I'm just sick of waiting for the full effect because it's been months of medicating and I'm not exactly where I want to be. I want that same feeling I had initially where I literally would start thinking about business ideas and get working on it. It was great! Now I have mild motivation where I will work out and I do enjoy some things like playing games, but still not really back into programming which I used to love to do.

I was a little wired today but still had that relaxed muscle feeling all day. Yah I'm worried about the anxiety portion. I know that 50mg of Sertraline still has 80% SAT occupancy. 200MG only had really a bit over 90% occupancy. So given the big dosage change and only such a small change in occupancy my theory was that it wouldn't affect me too much. I may give it the full 6-8 weeks as that's about when the DHEA-s levels should rise to stabilized levels. I think the lack of sleep last night is giving me weird ideas.


----------



## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> I was a little wired today but still had that relaxed muscle feeling all day. Yah I'm worried about the anxiety portion. I know that 50mg of Sertraline still has 80% SAT occupancy. 200MG only had really a bit over 90% occupancy. So given the big dosage change and only such a small change in occupancy my theory was that it wouldn't affect me too much. I may give it the full 6-8 weeks as that's about when the DHEA-s levels should rise to stabilized levels. I think the lack of sleep last night is giving me weird ideas.


that's likely the smartest idea.

and i've never understood why low doses of ssris don't help while theoretically they should given that, say, sertraline, for example, has 80% SERT occupancy at 50mg/day while an additional 150mg only provides for an additional 10% occupancy. i just don't get it!! in theory 50mg of zoloft should provide for great relief while minimizing side effects greatly, but it just doesn't work that way (for me).


----------



## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> that's likely the smartest idea.
> 
> and i've never understood why low doses of ssris don't help while theoretically they should given that, say, sertraline, for example, has 80% SERT occupancy at 50mg/day while an additional 150mg only provides for an additional 10% occupancy. i just don't get it!! in theory 50mg of zoloft should provide for great relief while minimizing side effects greatly, but it just doesn't work that way (for me).


I hear yah. I think it's because in their studies they measure the mean. Some people get less some people get more. Not to mention we all have different levels of CYP enzymes. You've read Preskorn's free online book?

This page and onwards discusses CYP enzymes:

http://www.preskorn.com/books/ssri_s7.html

Click table of contents for the full thing.

Anyways this part is a good explanation for why some people complain about terrible side effects and others say they can't believe it's not butter.



> This inverse relationship is illustrated in Figure 7.5. Due to this relationship, a change in the functional activity of the enzymes mediating the biotransformation of a drug necessary for its eventual elimination typically produces an effect the opposite of what would occur with a change in the dosing rate. For example, a decrease in functional activity in the CYP enzymes will lead to a decrease in drug clearance and an increase in drug accumulation (ie, the same net effect as will occur with a dose increase). Conversely, an increase in functional activity of the enzyme would typically result in a decrease in drug accumulation (ie, a net effect similar to a dose decrease).


Somewhere in there I believe he explains gene expressions and how some people produce more enzymes and others less. And how some people only get the effects of the metabolites which may give the bad or good effects and others get the effects only of the main active component which can do the same. Interesting stuff. Or maybe I read that somewhere else, hell I don't know I'm freaking tired! haha


----------



## riptide991

So I know not sleeping can put you in a hypomanic state, but I think that's what I'm feeling now and it started with me watching meme's of baby elephants and baby hippos, ,I was laughing my *** off much like when you toke on some good bud.


----------



## baxman

i first started taking welbutrin and within hours i felt the effects.i was simply more interested in people, places and things.my sex drive was def increased and i was more social and a little more motivated overall.problem was, i was also more anxious, much more anxious.also, welbutrin made me a little fuzzy headed.as time wore on, welbutrin actually killed my ability to have an erection.that combined with the anxiety made me get off.

when you have major depressive disorder and social anxiety life is brutal and we need medication.sometimes it seems just to be able to get thru the day.

i have yet to find a good med formula that works without too many side effects.


----------



## riptide991

baxman said:


> i first started taking welbutrin and within hours i felt the effects.i was simply more interested in people, places and things.my sex drive was def increased and i was more social and a little more motivated overall.problem was, i was also more anxious, much more anxious.also, welbutrin made me a little fuzzy headed.as time wore on, welbutrin actually killed my ability to have an erection.that combined with the anxiety made me get off.
> 
> when you have major depressive disorder and social anxiety life is brutal and we need medication.sometimes it seems just to be able to get thru the day.
> 
> i have yet to find a good med formula that works without too many side effects.


Try Nardil, i hear good things. That may be the next one I try if this combo doesn't work out for me. Although I really like the other benefits that wellbutrin provides like increased DHEA-s and lowered tnf-alpha and balancing of a lot of interleukins to lower the inflammatory ones. It seems to be good for autoimmune diseases.


----------



## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> I hear yah. I think it's because in their studies they measure the mean. Some people get less some people get more. Not to mention we all have different levels of CYP enzymes. You've read Preskorn's free online book?
> 
> This page and onwards discusses CYP enzymes:
> 
> http://www.preskorn.com/books/ssri_s7.html
> 
> Click table of contents for the full thing.
> 
> Anyways this part is a good explanation for why some people complain about terrible side effects and others say they can't believe it's not butter.
> 
> Somewhere in there I believe he explains gene expressions and how some people produce more enzymes and others less. And how some people only get the effects of the metabolites which may give the bad or good effects and others get the effects only of the main active component which can do the same. Interesting stuff. Or maybe I read that somewhere else, hell I don't know I'm freaking tired! haha


thanks for the link/info - i only have preskorn's guide to psychiatric drug interactions. i may have read more of his work while complete undergrad and/or grad work, but i can't recall any specifics. the grad program i completed was heaaaaavy on stahl's works. i'll definitely read up on how my body responds ineptly to medications. ha!


----------



## riptide991

Wow I slept 11 and a half hours. And my dreams were so intense. I was in some alien space ship and all these crazy armored aliens were in stasis but they started waking up. And they were attacking like crazy. I had some crazy machine gun and would shoot them in the face at a rapid rate but they took forever to die. It was like an awesome movie.


----------



## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> thanks for the link/info - i only have preskorn's guide to psychiatric drug interactions. i may have read more of his work while complete undergrad and/or grad work, but i can't recall any specifics. the grad program i completed was heaaaaavy on stahl's works. i'll definitely read up on how my body responds ineptly to medications. ha!


Yah I love stahl's books, so detailed. I have Essentials of Psychopharmacology on pdf, great resource.


----------



## riptide991

Day 20: Not too bad. I am actually liking music more and more and today it really shows. Blasting some old school Metallica on my speakers and lifting weights. I have my gym in the next room so it's quite convenient. Definitely a bit more motivated today, maybe some neurogenesis occurred during my 11 and a half hour sleep hah.

Also dancing around and playing air guitar haha.


----------



## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> Yah I love stahl's books, so detailed. I have Essentials of Psychopharmacology on pdf, great resource.


i do, too! not the latest version, though.


----------



## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> i do, too! not the latest version, though.


Yah I have the 2nd edition but the 3rd is out. Going to have to get it sometime.

Day 21: meh didn't feel so great today, had to drink A LOT of coffee to keep myself from falling asleep. I noticed a weird body odor that I'm emanating. It's not really a bad smell, but it's this manly smell, hard to explain. Even after my shower just a few hours ago I'm smelling it when I sniff the old armpit. I imagine this is what the Wolverine would smell like. Maybe it's pheromones. Only time will tell.


----------



## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> Yah I have the 2nd edition but the 3rd is out. Going to have to get it sometime.


i have the third edition in print - the fourth edition is out, though. you can even buy the edition as an app for ios and android-based devices. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/prescribers-guide-stahls-essential/id479162652?mt=8


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## istayhome

Thanks for keeping the journal going kehcorpz. You're giving a nice contribution with your Zolft/Boner Pill Journal. I'm actually being serious when I say that, it's a good read.


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## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> Yah I figured I'd document it because I always have so many questions regarding others who have used it but never really see their experiences. I figure it may help someone in the long run to either keep with it or not waste their time.


well, you stink like wolverine now due to wellbutrin so...:dead


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## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> well, you stink like wolverine now due to wellbutrin so...:dead


Lol well I don't consider it a bad smell, just noticed it is all. I never smelled it before. I always sit with my arm over my head so my armpit is like right there and just today i started noticing this weird scent. Here's the kicker, I actually sort of enjoy it so i keep sniffing it. It's not like bad body odor, it's just some manly smell or something. Although I do read people complaining about wellbutrin and body odor but mostly people using generic and i'm on brand.

Hmm I also started eating a lot of mozarella cheese recently to get my tyrosine, l-phenylalanine to help create more dopamine/norepinephrine. That could also maybe be a factor. I'm talking a lot of it hah. And It's good because I'm lifting weights and wanted to gain back some of the muscle i lost. I mean my typical meal is buckwheat with lentils, black beans and chickpeas, tomato sauce with garlic and melted mozarella cheese, mmmm.


----------



## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> Lol well I don't consider it a bad smell, just noticed it is all. I never smelled it before. I always sit with my arm over my head so my armpit is like right there and just today i started noticing this weird scent. Here's the kicker, I actually sort of enjoy it so i keep sniffing it. It's not like bad body odor, it's just some manly smell or something. Although I do read people complaining about wellbutrin and body odor but mostly people using generic and i'm on brand.
> 
> Hmm I also started eating a lot of mozarella cheese recently to get my tyrosine, l-phenylalanine to help create more dopamine/norepinephrine. That could also maybe be a factor. I'm talking a lot of it hah. And It's good because I'm lifting weights and wanted to gain back some of the muscle i lost. I mean my typical meal is buckwheat with lentils, black beans and chickpeas, tomato sauce with garlic and melted mozarella cheese, mmmm.


well, keep us updated on your stench, no matter what the cause. i suspect wellbutrin is the culprit as there have been others complaining of the same issue with the drug, but i guess it could be your diet, although if it were your diet, then the whole mediterranean would stink.


----------



## mikoy

Wellbutrin enhance all of senses - smell also.


----------



## istayhome

mikoy said:


> Wellbutrin enhance all of senses - smell also.


Yes. I get a super-enhanced sense of smell from lamictal. My laundry detergent is in a closed closet beneath my room and since I started the medication, the unnatural smell of it seems overwhelming. I'll walk into my room and be hit with a weird not-quite-right right flowery smell. It took me a while to figure it out, I though tjere was rotting fruit in my room or something. I moved everything around and cleaned my room super good then one day when I was doing laundry I realized what the smell was. I couldn't believe how sensitive my sense of smell got. Still, when I go outside I can smell all the flowers within over 100 feet. It starts getting really distracting and overwhelming.

I don't mind it as a side effect though, things could be much worse


----------



## Inshallah

mikoy said:


> Wellbutrin enhance all of senses - smell also.


Yes, I found out unfortunately when my brother managed to **** his pants in the hallway just before reaching the toilet. The faeces fell out of his pants into the hallway and the smell on Wellbutrin was something I'll never forget


----------



## istayhome

Inshallah said:


> Yes, I found out unfortunately when my brother managed to **** his pants in the hallway just before reaching the toilet. The faeces fell out of his pants into the hallway and the smell on Wellbutrin was something I'll never forget


:clap


----------



## riptide991

mikoy said:


> Wellbutrin enhance all of senses - smell also.


Na zdrowie!

So maybe I always had B.O. and I only now can smell it? Cool! I think that's better because i've never really had complaints. And my bro would tell me if I stank.



Inshallah said:


> Yes, I found out unfortunately when my brother managed to **** his pants in the hallway just before reaching the toilet. The faeces fell out of his pants into the hallway and the smell on Wellbutrin was something I'll never forget


WTF!!! hahahahahahahahah


----------



## riptide991

Day 22: I think that how I feel when I wake up is an indicator of how the day will go. Today I woke up feeling refreshed and just happy. My guess is that I'll have a good day. I'll edit this and update it throughout the day.

Edit: Part of the reason I've been eating a lot more cheese is for the tyrosine and L-phenylalanine which are the building blocks of dopamine and norepinephrine. But the problem is that a lot of amino acids in full protein sources like cheese will share the same transport carrier. As such I just took 500mg L-phenylalanine on an empty stomach about an hour ago. I'm starting to feel slightly more energetic. I also had 2 cups of coffee though. I find that l-phenylalanine is much better than tyrosine itself. I know that tyrosine is closer to dopamine but I have a feeling that it doesn't seem to make it to my brain as I need insane amounts to feel anything but with L-phenylalanine a small amount works great.

Edit 2: I ended up getting motivated to go jogging out of nowhere. I went jogging and I felt pretty good. I must say I also popped another 500mg of L-phenylalanine before the jog. But man Wellbutrin makes me sweat like crazy. I came back about 30 minutes ago and I'm still sweating and have a huge fan blowing directly on me. My hair is still soaked. Not to mention my undies haha.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Is it all right if i can contribute too the thread?

Well im coming of using adderall i used it about 12 day's give or take it made me real sick i bloated up messed up my sleep i gained about 20 pounds became like suicidal depressed but anyway's lol.

I worked up the nerve too started up on my plan b as well 5mg cipralex 150mg wellbutrin. I had initial insomina cause adderall screwed my heart up and i couldn't relaxed for acouple for a couple day's despite that. 

I began the plan b i think it was a bad idea beginning both medication at the same time and not returning too a baseline after adderall. i spent about 3-4 day's on the wellbutin i had too discontinued cause of sleeping only 2-4 hour's a night and extremely painful burning pains' got too the point where it was stabbing and shooting. my sleep returned too normal im still taking 5mg cipralex it working alright and the burning pain's stop i think it related too lack of sleep same with the blood pressure im gonna stay on cipralex untill im well rested then try and resume the wellbutrin.

Is that normal when initiating the 2? Any feed back would be cool maybe zoloft would be a better choose eh?.


----------



## mikoy

Na zdrowie 

It's my 34 day on wellbutrin. Previously I was on paroxetine for 6 months without any effect in mood/motivation/energy problems. Wellbutrin is much better than any SSRI (that's my opinion)


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Is it all right if i can contribute too the thread?
> 
> Well im coming of using adderall i used it about 12 day's give or take it made me real sick i bloated up messed up my sleep i gained about 20 pounds became like suicidal depressed but anyway's lol.
> 
> I worked up the nerve too started up on my plan b as well 5mg cipralex 150mg wellbutrin. I had initial insomina cause adderall screwed my heart up and i couldn't relaxed for acouple for a couple day's despite that.
> 
> I began the plan b i think it was a bad idea beginning both medication at the same time and not returning too a baseline after adderall. i spent about 3-4 day's on the wellbutin i had too discontinued cause of sleeping only 2-4 hour's a night and extremely painful burning pains' got too the point where it was stabbing and shooting. my sleep returned too normal im still taking 5mg cipralex it working alright and the burning pain's stop i think it related too lack of sleep same with the blood pressure im gonna stay on cipralex untill im well rested then try and resume the wellbutrin.
> 
> Is that normal when initiating the 2? Any feed back would be cool maybe zoloft would be a better choose eh?.


For sure you can contribute as long as it's wellbutrin related. I definitely had some issues with wellbutrin the first 2 weeks on 150mg and the again for 2 weeks after raising it to 300mg. I couldn't sleep at all so I've been taking about 0.2 mg (That's right not 3mg) of melatonin and half a zopiclone pill. I'm going to ween off the zopiclone eventually and stick to melatonin.

Keep in mind that stopping Adderal alone can cause some pretty bad side effects. I think once you get comfortable with the cipralex you can add the wellbutrin back in there. From my experience with cipralex I was so fatigued I could barely move my limbs.


----------



## GotAnxiety

kehcorpz said:


> For sure you can contribute as long as it's wellbutrin related. I definitely had some issues with wellbutrin the first 2 weeks on 150mg and the again for 2 weeks after raising it to 300mg. I couldn't sleep at all so I've been taking about 0.2 mg (That's right not 3mg) of melatonin and half a zopiclone pill. I'm going to ween off the zopiclone eventually and stick to melatonin.
> 
> Keep in mind that stopping Adderal alone can cause some pretty bad side effects. I think once you get comfortable with the cipralex you can add the wellbutrin back in there. From my experience with cipralex I was so fatigued I could barely move my limbs.


Thanks it nice too know im not the only one experiencing insomina like that when starting up on these med's niether one alone at those doses produce insomina like that.

The effect of the 2 medication together were outstanding even tho my insomina was starting too wavier abit but i thought it would be best if i discountine and recoup some health.


----------



## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> Day 22: I think that how I feel when I wake up is an indicator of how the day will go. Today I woke up feeling refreshed and just happy. My guess is that I'll have a good day. I'll edit this and update it throughout the day.
> 
> Edit: Part of the reason I've been eating a lot more cheese is for the tyrosine and L-phenylalanine which are the building blocks of dopamine and norepinephrine. But the problem is that a lot of amino acids in full protein sources like cheese will share the same transport carrier. As such I just took 500mg L-phenylalanine on an empty stomach about an hour ago. I'm starting to feel slightly more energetic. I also had 2 cups of coffee though. I find that l-phenylalanine is much better than tyrosine itself. I know that tyrosine is closer to dopamine but I have a feeling that it doesn't seem to make it to my brain as I need insane amounts to feel anything but with L-phenylalanine a small amount works great.
> 
> Edit 2: I ended up getting motivated to go jogging out of nowhere. I went jogging and I felt pretty good. I must say I also popped another 500mg of L-phenylalanine before the jog. But man Wellbutrin makes me sweat like crazy. I came back about 30 minutes ago and I'm still sweating and have a huge fan blowing directly on me. My hair is still soaked. Not to mention my undies haha.


Right on man! sounds like a good day. It's been hot as h*ll down here in the lower 48, be glad you don't have to deal with that. I agree that for the most part how I wake up feeling will determine the rest of the day. But If I'm up by like 7am, even if I feel crummy I can usually turn the day around and make it good. If I wake up feeling good I'm almost guaranteed to have a good day. If I wake up feeling crummy it's about 50-50, I have to work pretty hard to turn it into a good day.

I wish wellbutrin made me active and motivated, it has never helped me in that regard when I took it.


----------



## riptide991

Day 23: Didn't sleep much last night kept getting up every 2 hours. I had insanely vivid dreams. In one dream I was superman or something and in another I was riding in some ghetto hell bus with meth heads and you name it. Whatever dreams never really phase me I have lost the emotion of fear ages ago. Even when I would die in my dreams where I was falling I would close my eyes and relax and be at peace. Anyways, I also took another 1000mg of L-phenylalanine which made me a bit jittery but that's ok. So I just got off the phone with a Jehova witness and usually I would just listen to them and try to get off the phone but today I completely attacked her. I pretty much told her that she is of low intellect so it's natural for her to make up fictional beings like a child with their imaginary friends. I told her that we have found bacteria that is 6 billion years old and yet the bible says it's 6000. And she was just stuttering and then I just said "anyways I don't have time for this I have to go" and I hung up. 

I just absolutely hate religious nut cases, they are starting to get to me. You can believe what you want but don't push it on me. I believe in science. You would think that with our intelligence evolving we would put aside such silly folklore. 

Other than that I'm doing ok, kind of lazy today, not the same motivated feeling as yesterday. I hear that it's up and downs with wellbutrin until it stabilizes.

I have to say I'm never this ballsy, I usually stay quiet and on low radar. I don't think this stuff is making me aggressive at all because I've been in situations where I got pissed off but I kept my cool. It's just these people won't stop calling and coming to my door leaving pamphlets, being nice to them just does not work.


----------



## mikoy

That's normal real man reaction


----------



## riptide991

mikoy said:


> That's normal real man reaction


It's about damn time I became a man!


----------



## Mish

@kehcorpz yo man so i just went on wellbutrin 150mg, 5th and no changes. As a matter of fact it is making me tired through the day and unable to sleep at night is that normal? I feel zero effects emotionally.


----------



## riptide991

Mish said:


> @kehcorpz yo man so i just went on wellbutrin 150mg, 5th and no changes. As a matter of fact it is making me tired through the day and unable to sleep at night is that normal? I feel zero effects emotionally.


I was definitely very fatigued at first. It slowly goes away. I still get days where my limbs feel heavy but it's more like a muscle relaxant feeling. This drug takes really long to work. The affinity for the receptors it works on is extremely low and you need to let it build up in your system and circulate for a long time. SSRI's actually work quicker and they typically are 4-6 weeks. This one I would give 6-8 weeks to truly know. But I would raise it to 300 if you can handle the 150 for 2 weeks or so.


----------



## CD700

Really ? I thought Wellbutrin was one of the faster acting AD's


----------



## riptide991

blakeyz said:


> Really ? I thought Wellbutrin was one of the faster acting AD's


May be placebo, may be an initial effect as your body may be adjusting to metabolize the drug, but based on affinity, dosage and half life it should take the longest of them all.










More than 1000nm to affect dopamine, that's a pretty high concentration that needs to be in the blood. Keep in mind originally wellbutrin was released at starting dose of 600mg/day but because of seizure rates it was recalled and they had to change the dosing. Obviously testing showed it required a larger amount to affect these sites of action.


----------



## baxman

^i felt welbutrin within hours and it was no placebo effect.strangely the longer i was on it the less it worked, ie it pooped out no matter the dosage i took.it did help with anhedonia at the start though but that also dried up.


----------



## riptide991

baxman said:


> ^i felt welbutrin within hours and it was no placebo effect.strangely the longer i was on it the less it worked, ie it pooped out no matter the dosage i took.it did help with anhedonia at the start though but that also dried up.


Yah that's why I mentioned the initial effect. It's like the liver enzymes don't kick in to later, or who knows. But also it could be acting by some other means. I too felt it right away. Wellbutrin impacts a lot of bodily processes, especially the inflammatory processes. Just lowering inflammation itself can be beneficial. IT also increases DHEA levels which is very beneficial for so many things including brain health, testosterone, estrone, etc..

There could also be other metabolites that we haven't identified yet. Thus far we only know of 4 I believe. Apparently there could be more.

But through the mechanism we do know, that part should take a long time. My doctor is quite knowledgeable and even he insisted 6-8 weeks but yet didn't insist it on other meds i've taken.


----------



## jim_morrison

kehcorpz said:


> May be placebo, may be an initial effect as your body may be adjusting to metabolize the drug, but based on affinity, dosage and half life it should take the longest of them all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More than 1000nm to affect dopamine, that's a pretty high concentration that needs to be in the blood. Keep in mind originally wellbutrin was released at starting dose of 600mg/day but because of seizure rates it was recalled and they had to change the dosing. Obviously testing showed it required a larger amount to affect these sites of action.


The only short-fall of Preskorns graph here is that it doesn't take into account the active metabolites and their affinities.


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## basuraeuropea

jim_morrison said:


> The only short-fall of Preskorns graph here is that it doesn't take into account the active metabolites and their affinities.


true story, and bupropion has several active metabolites (below) that concretely play significant roles in the drug's mechanism of action and therapeutic efficacy, with s,s-hydroxybupropion likely being the most impacting. 

















http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10333980
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12109932
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17167747
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12909199
*Drug* * IC50* 
[3H]*DA :::* [3H]*NE *
_nM_ 
Bupropion 550 ± 65 ::: 1900 ± 12 
(2_RS_,3_RS_)-Hydroxybupropion >10,000 ::: 1700 ± 830 
*(2S,3S)-Hydroxybupropion 790 ± 11 ::: 520 ± 35 *
(2_R_,3_R_)-Hydroxybupropion >10,000 ::: >10,000 
http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/content/66/3/675.full


----------



## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> true story, and bupropion has several active metabolites (below) that concretely play significant roles in the drug's mechanism of action and therapeutic efficacy, with s,s-hydroxybupropion likely being the most impacting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10333980
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12109932
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17167747
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12909199
> *Drug* * IC50*
> [3H]*DA :::* [3H]*NE *
> _nM_
> Bupropion 550 ± 65 ::: 1900 ± 12
> (2_RS_,3_RS_)-Hydroxybupropion >10,000 ::: 1700 ± 830
> *(2S,3S)-Hydroxybupropion 790 ± 11 ::: 520 ± 35 *
> (2_R_,3_R_)-Hydroxybupropion >10,000 ::: >10,000
> http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/content/66/3/675.full


Yah but even for the metabolites it would take a while to ramp up at therapeutic doses. The biggest difference is that the half life will allow it to build up greater concentrations.


----------



## mikoy

It's true, don't know why but wellbutrin needs some time to work in my case. Even more than 8 weeks. It's something about receptors and desentization/downregulation.

*kehcorpz *why you're taking zoloft with wellbutrin?


----------



## riptide991

mikoy said:


> It's true, don't know why but wellbutrin needs some time to work in my case. Even more than 8 weeks. It's something about receptors and desentization/downregulation.
> 
> *kehcorpz *why you're taking zoloft with wellbutrin?


Well I was on Zoloft/Remeron originally at 200/45 and this was the best combo ever. It almost put me completely into remission. I had no anxiety, I had no depression was enjoying things I should enjoy like programming, etc, but it eventually faded, and reading that Remeron poops out quickly I switched to Wellbutrin but kept Zoloft because I was afraid of the anxiety Wellbutrin can create. Plus I read that this combo is the best combo. Wellbutrin is best used as an augmenting agent. This is a common combo and called Welloft. hehe


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## riptide991

Day 24: Another poor quality sleep today. I blame basuraeuropea as I was up late talkign to him .

Either way the day has been so-so, it's rainy and dark so that may be a problem. I went to the doctor with my mom and it went ok. I then ended up going to Costco to get a membership and I had slight anxiety while the chick was talking to me. She was pretty hot though. I kind of started biting my lower lip which I do when I get anxious. It wasn't really bad though. I think it was the L-phenylalanine I keep taking. In the past this has made me more anxious too so I'm going to stop. I'll stick to cheese. I also had a lot of coffee which I always do when I don't sleep too well. I mean I love the stuff too, I drink it thick and black (TWSS). And decaf tastes horrible, I have never tasted a decaf version that was good, the process in eliminating the caffeine changes its taste completely. Anyways, going to make sure I only have 1 cup of coffee in the morning. It was only the 1 on 1 kind of situation that made me a bit anxious, general anxiety was pretty much gone. I did talk to some other lady checking my receipt and I was fine with that too. I guess cuz the hot chick was rambling about all the different upgrades I can do but I knew I was going to say no anyways.

I also didn't eat much because I was in a rush so the coffee and such probably hit me harder than normally after a meal.


----------



## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> Day 24: Another poor quality sleep today. I blame basuraeuropea as I was up late talkign to him .
> 
> Either way the day has been so-so, it's rainy and dark so that may be a problem. I went to the doctor with my mom and it went ok. I then ended up going to Costco to get a membership and I had slight anxiety while the chick was talking to me. She was pretty hot though. I kind of started biting my lower lip which I do when I get anxious. It wasn't really bad though. I think it was the L-phenylalanine I keep taking. In the past this has made me more anxious too so I'm going to stop. I'll stick to cheese. I also had a lot of coffee which I always do when I don't sleep too well. I mean I love the stuff too, I drink it thick and black (TWSS). And decaf tastes horrible, I have never tasted a decaf version that was good, the process in eliminating the caffeine changes its taste completely. Anyways, going to make sure I only have 1 cup of coffee in the morning. It was only the 1 on 1 kind of situation that made me a bit anxious, general anxiety was pretty much gone. I did talk to some other lady checking my receipt and I was fine with that too. I guess cuz the hot chick was rambling about all the different upgrades I can do but I knew I was going to say no anyways.
> 
> I also didn't eat much because I was in a rush so the coffee and such probably hit me harder than normally after a meal.


HEY!!! it was an interesting discussion, though! vet pharmaceutical grade oxytocin, man. that's what it's all about.


----------



## GotAnxiety

*kehcorpz* man i got a question for you do you feel oxytocin on the zoloft/wellbutin when you talk too chicks or when they touch you/rub up beside you/ or hug u? you know the feeling like all googley inside kinda like a natural love high. or does the ssri blunt the love hormone and you still feel numb?

For some reason when i was on wellbutrin/cipralex and i was sleep deprieved i got insane attention from the ladies it like i could seduce them just by looking at them and they wouldn't look away it was like i could look at them and they wouldn't look away and i wouldn't look away lol if that makes any sense i did have a couple of opportunities and i was shy and never talk too them or got there numbers or brought them home with me now i feel bad for that but i question my motives and i don't wanna break any hearts if my feelings are insincere im thinking this could be the hypomanic state that you were talking about.


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## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> HEY!!! it was an interesting discussion, though! vet pharmaceutical grade oxytocin, man. that's what it's all about.


Very true. I'm gonna get some for my dog. 



GotAnxiety said:


> *kehcorpz* man i got a question for you do you feel oxytocin on the zoloft/wellbutin when you talk too chicks or when they touch you/rub up beside you/ or hug u? you know the feeling like all googley inside kinda like a natural love high. or does the ssri blunt the love hormone and you still feel numb?
> 
> For some reason when i was on wellbutrin/cipralex and i was sleep deprieved i got insane attention from the ladies it like i could seduce them just by looking at them and they wouldn't look away it was like i could look at them and they wouldn't look away and i wouldn't look away lol if that makes any sense i did have a couple of opportunities and i was shy and never talk too them or got there numbers or brought them home with me now i feel bad for that but i question my motives and i don't wanna break any hearts if my feeling are insincere im thinking this could be the hypomanic state that you were talking about.


To be honest I've always kind of felt the touch causing oxytocin feelings since starting the meds. Especially when Remeron/zoloft were working for me. I haven't really done much since starting the new meds so can't really say for sure. But I've never had the emotional numbing that people mention on SSRIs. I was actually numb and emotionless when I had bad depression. Nothing had any meaning attached, I didn't care about anything. It was just so unreal. I think the reason I felt it more with Remeron/zoloft was because Remeron blocked all the other 5-ht receptors and left 5-ht1a open for zoloft to work on. I may even add 15mg of Remeron back in, or try to augment Buspar. I mean buspar is dirt cheap so even if it doesn't work out no loss.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Kehcorpz i always liked the idea of buspar or remeron. Hell you should try throwing them into the mix i bet they would work excellent! I finally got my sleep stabilized at 7 hours decaf coffee seems too make me sleepy and it helps get rid of the burning pains . Im thinking ill wait a week too recoup off this sleep deprivation but im changing my strategy im gonna cut the xl pills in quarters or halfs and try and taper onto them i think that might be a better approach.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Kehcorpz i always liked the idea of buspar or remeron. Hell you should try throwing them into the mix i bet they would work excellent! I finally got my sleep stabilized at 7 hours decaf coffee seems too make me sleepy and it helps get rid of the burning pains . Im thinking ill wait a week too recoup off this sleep deprivation but im changing my strategy im gonna cut the xl pills in quarters or halfs and try and taper onto them i think that might be a better approach.


Watch out man. The XL release the drug slowly, if you cut the pill the drug is exposed in your gastrointestinal system since the coating is gone, and you get a big spike of it. It's why they made XL over the standard one because the standard one had too many peaks followed by lows, XL maintains the same concentration from peak at 3 hours to 24 hours. Pretty good stuff.


----------



## mikoy

Buspar never worked for me. I feels like SSRI counteracting effects of wellbutrin. SSRI make me so lazy, especially in socializing with others. You're lucky if you never had the emotional numbing on SSRI...


----------



## riptide991

@mikoy hmm yah I was actually debating lowering zoloft to 50 to see if Wellbutrin gets a better kick but I'll wait the full 2 months for wellbutrin and then start adjusting.

Day 25: I slept like a champ. I didn't follow my rule of 1 cup of coffee, I ended up drinking 3 this morning! God damn it's just so good and sitting there reading the news and drinking coffee, I've been doing that for years. My concentration seems to be getting a bit better. In fact I was playing borderlands last night and before I knew it 4 hours had passed. Geee. And today while reading the news I wasn't flipping between the articles and other things constantly. Although I didn't follow the coffee rule I'm definitely going to follow my no L-phenylalanine rule. I'll edit this throughout the day as I'm still in morning mode.

The day was ok. I wasn't particularly energetic so I lounged around played video games and watched avengers. And now I've been looking at funny gifs, now that's an awesome saturday night


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## istayhome

Hey, This isn't related to wellbutrin but it is related to boners. I recall in another thread basuraeuropea saying he was able to *get it up* and perform well from a one-time high dose of trazodone. Actually I just read on wikipedia that SARI's cab do this for men. I've taken high doses of trazodone and gotten no effects at. Has any one else noticed increased libido and a "better boner" from thr Traz. Judt curious,

-Thanks.


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## riptide991

@istayhome I thought trazodone makes you sedated? 

Man I think I'm going to talk to my doc and ask him his opinion about taking wellbutrin at night. It seems during the day I have way less energy than at night time. Now I'm super energetic, blasting Bowie and enjoying it as if I just had some serious Purple Kush. I think I would be able to fall asleep after taking it, I mean it peaks at 3h and lasts at this level for 24 hours. So I am obviously sleeping while still at peak level. Plus I take it at around 7am and usually go back to sleep.


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## basuraeuropea

istayhome said:


> Hey, This isn't related to wellbutrin but it is related to boners. I recall in another thread basuraeuropea saying he was able to *get it up* and perform well from a one-time high dose of trazodone. Actually I just read on wikipedia that SARI's cab do this for men. I've taken high doses of trazodone and gotten no effects at. Has any one else noticed increased libido and a "better boner" from thr Traz. Judt curious,
> 
> -Thanks.


yeap, true story - apparently it's common enough to prescribe trazodone in conjunction with an ssri/snri if the (male) patient is experiencing erectile dysfunction. unfortunately, for me, using trazodone as an adjunct only worked when used prn as it lost its boner-producing, libido-enhancing effect when administered chronically. thus, what worked even better in my case, was lowering the ssri dose, but i understand not all can do that. that said, i don't know how trazodone would effect me, or anyone, for that matter, as we all respond idiosyncratically, should i have taken trazodone without an ssri accompanying. i'd extrapolate (via personal experience and studies conducted) that i'd likely have the same response prn as well as the same response upon chronic administration.

5ht2 antagonism, of course. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18978492
as well as alpha-adrenergic antagonism. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8144126
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573170
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8144126http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573170


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## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> @istayhome I thought trazodone makes you sedated?
> 
> Man I think I'm going to talk to my doc and ask him his opinion about taking wellbutrin at night. It seems during the day I have way less energy than at night time. Now I'm super energetic, blasting Bowie and enjoying it as if I just had some serious Purple Kush. I think I would be able to fall asleep after taking it, I mean it peaks at 3h and lasts at this level for 24 hours. So I am obviously sleeping while still at peak level. Plus I take it at around 7am and usually go back to sleep.


paradoxical reaction!


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## riptide991

Day 26: Wow I woke up with a lot of energy, in fact I slept only like 7 hours (yah I know that's still good but I love sleeping). But yah I couldn't continue sleeping and I just kept moving around in bed so finally I just got up. It should be an interesting day. Will fill in the details as I progress.

EDIT: I kind of feel a bit nauseous today. It's not debilitating but I've been feeling it for a while now. It's a very familiar feeling that I had when I took bromocriptine which is a dopamine agonist. Maybe I have enough drug in my blood that it's starting to affect dopamine. But from my experience with bromocriptine this goes away and you adjust. I'm still energetic though, started doing laundry and all that, usually i'd be too lazy.


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## riptide991

Day 27: Hmm I woke up feeling pretty good. Everything just seems a bit brighter, literally. It's like my vision has gotten better. Anyways, today I took 50mg of Zoloft, I think that if I can get away with 50mg it would be much cheaper and I'd still get similar affects if not better if it lets wellbutrin do more work. Without Remeron to block 5-ht2c I just don't want to over saturate SERT. Plus I may suggest buspar to my doc and he would probably be more willing if I dropped the zoloft down further. The buspar would simply be a test since it either works or doesn't and it's dirt cheap.

EDIT: Basically the wellbutrin effect died down a bit and ended up being really tired. Odd part is I think that coffee may make me get more tired on it. I kept drinking more to get more energy but ended up not getting any. Now nighttime comes along and I have a little bit more energy again. I'm seriously considering taking it before bed today and skipping tomorrow morning. I'm also seeing my doctor tomorrow so I'm going to propose either Buspar or Abilify as an add on to see what he says.


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## riptide991

Day 28: Wow it's been 28 days already. So last night I took my Zoloft before bed time. I fell asleep right away (granted I take zopiclone and melatonin) and I slept for about 6 hours, at which point I woke up and could not get back to sleep. I took my wellbutrin and waited to get sleepy but nothing happened. But I'm feeling pretty energetic regardless of the lack of sleep. I just don't feel exhausted like I normally would with less sleep. I mean some people will say 6 hours is good but I'm an 8-10 hour kinda guy... haha.

Oh I did notice my dreams weren't as intense as usual. I mean usually they are so vivid and I remember details. I can't remember anything from last nights sleep.

EDIT 2: Man had trouble finding this thread cuz someone took out the word boner in the title as if it was a bad word.

But I digress. I think I'm feeling a bit manic today. I mean, I don't know what feeling manic feels like cuz usually I'm drunk and don't remember a thing. But the propensity to laugh is large. I keep laughing at stupid things I'm thinking about. Maybe that's what happiness feels like. Man comedians must be the happiest people one earth. I can't compare because I've been depressed most of my life. I sort of felt like this when Remeron/Zoloft worked but not as pronounced.


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## riptide991

I just popped a 150mg pill I had left over for a total of 450mg today. So we shall see what happens. I might as well test it and maybe recommend my doc ups it if he doesn't want to add abilify for trial.

Edit: Was at the doctors and man he was very against giving me abilify to add to the treatment. I even brought studies and he just didn't want to do it. I told him the science behind it and showed him, and while he agreed that science is one thing but individual experience is another and his experiences with Abilify have always been bad. He says that the side effects are just not worth it. Then he went on about how then he would have to deal with a lawsuit if something happened. So he told me to try this another month and let him know how it went. I'm not against going for another month as today i felt particularly well, so it's possible wellbutrin really will need that 8 weeks. Plus my old jobs insurance finally figured out they kept paying for my meds for months. So now I'm gonna have to probably just get wellbutrin and get off zoloft. Too damn expensive. I don't have a job now and while I do have savings I want to be as frugal as possible. So I will experiment with going off zoloft. Even at 50mg the stuff was 27 bucks. 52 bucks for Wellbutrin XL and 29 bucks for zopiclone. No thank you! haha


----------



## wizeguy

Hey kehcorpz,

I just finished reading your thread. Here's my story, I was diagnosed with OCD 6 months ago after 6 years of investigation and 73000$ spent. I got my income tax reports to prove this. Anyway after trying all the best and newest therapies available(CBT, psychoanalysis, EMDR, schema therapy) ....... it was all a matter of taking one FUC*ING pill. Can you guys imagine that?!?!?!?!...:mum

I'm 27 yrs old btw.

So I started cipralex 5 months ago at 10mg. It worked well but not fully for my anxiety and obsessions. So 4 weeks ago I increased to 15mg which definitely does the job in that department. At 10mg the only side effects that I had was an increase in libido, since I had less anxiety because anxiety is a libido killer and I had that delayed ejaculation which wasn't that bad and got better after like 4-5 months.

BUT now at 15mg I got the whole package of sexual side effects

Man on 10mg it was like a porn movie that was playing constantly in my mind. But now it's all NON EXISTENT.

I got an apt. with my psychiatrist on October 8th for him to prescribe me that wellbutrin XL thang 150mg.

Question:

I know it's not guaranteed that the libido will come back with wellbutrin but if it does how long does it take for that side effect to disappear?


----------



## riptide991

wizeguy said:


> Hey kehcorpz,
> 
> I just finished reading your thread. Here's my story, I was diagnosed with OCD 6 months ago after 6 years of investigation and 73000$ spent. I got my income tax reports to prove this. Anyway after trying all the best and newest therapies available(CBT, psychoanalysis, EMDR, schema therapy) ....... it was all a matter of taking one FUC*ING pill. Can you guys imagine that?!?!?!?!...:mum
> 
> I'm 27 yrs old btw.
> 
> So I started cipralex 5 months ago at 10mg. It worked well but not fully for my anxiety and obsessions. So 4 weeks ago I increased to 15mg which definitely does the job in that department. At 10mg the only side effects that I had was an increase in libido, since I had less anxiety because anxiety is a libido killer and I had that delayed ejaculation which wasn't that bad and got better after like 4-5 months.
> 
> BUT now at 15mg I got the whole package of sexual side effects
> 
> Man on 10mg it was like a porn movie that was playing constantly in my mind. But now it's all NON EXISTENT.
> 
> I got an apt. with my psychiatrist on October 8th for him to prescribe me that wellbutrin XL thang 150mg.
> 
> Question:
> 
> I know it's not guaranteed that the libido will come back with wellbutrin but if it does how long does it take for that side effect to disappear?


I only noticed slight libido on 150mg, but 300mg is where it was at. The libido may become really insane at first where you're constantly thinking about sex. But that tapers off. After 2 months I still have great libido and the hardest erections of my life. I mean Thor tried to grab my peen because he thought it was his hammer.


----------



## riptide991

Day 29: Man this drug is definitely a slow worker. I mean I'm only starting to really feel its effects right now. That would technically be 2 months with 150mg for 1 month and now the end of month 2 with 300mg. Either way, today I once again woke up pretty damn rested. I've been just content today. But the odd part is..... brace yourselves..... I am sitting there and just got the urge to clean the entire house, and i'm talking **** and span. You could eat pie off the floor. Anyways, I usually have to force myself to clean once it starts getting bad. This oddly enough is usually a sign that a drug is starting to work. I had the same thing happen to me when Zoloft and remeron were working.


----------



## mikoy

I think some of this effect is from lowering dose of zoloft.


----------



## riptide991

mikoy said:


> I think some of this effect is from lowering dose of zoloft.


I highly doubt that because the day before yesterday was the day I made the transition from 100 to 50. But I took 50 in the morning and then 50 at night. Last night was the first time I actually took 50 alone. I already was pretty decent the day before. Plus Zoloft takes about 7 days to clear which would mean blood plasma levels would reflect a 50mg dose after 7 days. It could be because I switched to night time, but that's a bit hard to believe. Wellbutrin does really take 6-8 weeks to work. And in most cases when you change your dose you have to wait another 6-8 weeks as if you started fresh.


----------



## wizeguy

kehcorpz said:


> I only noticed slight libido on 150mg, but 300mg is where it was at. The libido may become really insane at first where you're constantly thinking about sex. But that tapers off. After 2 months I still have great libido and the hardest erections of my life. I mean Thor tried to grab my peen because he thought it was his hammer.


Sounds promising! Thing is I'm wondering if when I'm going to start taking wellbutrin xl, it's going to increase metabolizing the cipralex exponentially?! Reason why is that I took Ibuprofen(cold and sinus med) 3 days ago and I feel like cipralex has stopped working(anxiety and feeling in a really bad mood). It's like as soon as I add another element in my body, my body reacts in eliminating whatever is present already. IT's as if it doesn't accept more than one med at a time. Anyway, it's by trying things that we become to understand our unique body/brain chemistry. From reading other forums I estimated that there's a rate successof 50% reagrding the addition of wellbutrin xl for people that want to offset the sexual side effects from their SSRIs. I am really hoping that it'll work and not cause me an increase of anxiety because I'm extremely sensitive to that. Just smoking a cigarette causes me about 20 mins of medium anxiety.


----------



## riptide991

To be honest it shouldn't make a difference. The cipralex and wellbutrin use completely different enzymes to metabolize the drugs. it's likely since ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory it may have had some alternate method of reducing the efficacy of cipralex. I wouldn't worry about it as they use different enzymes and act on different receptors. If you feel there's an issue just lower your cipralex a bit or talk to your doctor. I've been lowering my zoloft and may even drop it completely. I only kept the zoloft because I was scared about anxiety on the wellbutrin but it has made me less anxious than ever.



wizeguy said:


> Sounds promising! Thing is I'm wondering if when I'm going to start taking wellbutrin xl, it's going to increase metabolizing the cipralex exponentially?! Reason why is that I took Ibuprofen(cold and sinus med) 3 days ago and I feel like cipralex has stopped working(anxiety and feeling in a really bad mood). It's like as soon as I add another element in my body, my body reacts in eliminating whatever is present already. IT's as if it doesn't accept more than one med at a time. Anyway, it's by trying things that we become to understand our unique body/brain chemistry. From reading other forums I estimated that there's a rate successof 50% reagrding the addition of wellbutrin xl for people that want to offset the sexual side effects from their SSRIs. I am really hoping that it'll work and not cause me an increase of anxiety because I'm extremely sensitive to that. Just smoking a cigarette causes me about 20 mins of medium anxiety.


----------



## riptide991

Day 30: I slept well, however, when I woke up I really needed the coffee to get by. My focus was pretty good but was super lazy all day. It was also really cold here and raining so that could have been the culprit. Nothing beats being lazy on days like that, even though I don't go out on sunny days anyways  lol

I've spent pretty much all day reading or browsing the forums. Even after 6 cups of coffee I'm not anxious at all, I'm just relaxed at my desk. Did some gaming too. Not really much to report.


----------



## gilmourr

quickly skimmed the thread. Sounds like wellbutrin is kind of sucking. Now I don't really want to try it with nardil. 

I'm not a big fan of the whole "reuptake inhibitors." They always are slow/don't work that well etc etc. 

I wish they'd make a med with a new method of increasing sert, ne, d


----------



## GotAnxiety

Wiseguy do not take anti inflammatories/pseudo ehpedrine and anti depressants together that a no no don't you read the interactions not only does it stop the antidepressant from working it causes high bp and chest pains and maybe even potential serotonin sydrome be careful take t1's if you must but all pain killers are bad. Well its day 2 for me i recontinue taking the wellbutrin xl but ive been cutting them in half and take them 8 hr apart i've been sleeping 8hr a day so far i wonder if it the 24hr release of the xl that was causing my sleep disturbance will find out in a couple days i do miss that hypomanic feeling.


----------



## riptide991

gilmourr said:


> quickly skimmed the thread. Sounds like wellbutrin is kind of sucking. Now I don't really want to try it with nardil.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of the whole "reuptake inhibitors." They always are slow/don't work that well etc etc.
> 
> I wish they'd make a med with a new method of increasing sert, ne, d


Well, there's been a lot of good days which I don't have ever so that's a good sign. It's going slowly though. I prefer something like this as taking it long term seems better and tolerance isn't as likely as the fast acting drugs.

It's pretty expensive now that insurance isn't paying for it. It's 51 bucks! Although I heard from another board member that in the US it goes for like 400$ for one month of 300mg. That's insane. No wonder Americans prefer buying in Canada. If that's truly the case.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Kehcorpz you can get the government to pay for your meds eh. Gilmour r Wellbutrin a decent med it nice and light something that you can actually use with an ssri that won't cause too many interaction unlike ritilin or amphetimines which are more extreme a light medication sounds more sustainable long term. I doubt it would be good with nardil.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Kehcorpz you can get the government to pay for your meds eh. Gilmour r Wellbutrin a decent med it nice and light something that you can actually use with an ssri that won't cause too many interaction unlike ritilin or amphetimines which are more extreme a light medication sounds more sustainable long term. I doubt it would be good with nardil.


Heh you're right I just looked up the trillium drug program. Will apply before I go to my docs next month. Thanks!


----------



## wizeguy

GotAnxiety said:


> Wiseguy do not take anti inflammatories/pseudo ehpedrine and anti depressants together that a no no don't you read the interactions not only does it stop the antidepressant from working it causes high bp and chest pains and maybe even potential serotonin sydrome be careful take t1's if you must but all pain killers are bad. Well its day 2 for me i recontinue taking the wellbutrin xl but ive been cutting them in half and take them 8 hr apart i've been sleeping 8hr a day so far i wonder if it the 24hr release of the xl that was causing my sleep disturbance will find out in a couple days i do miss that hypomanic feeling.


Hey there gotanxiety, thanks for your input about those type of pills and surprisingly it's actually 2 different pharmacists prior to popping 1 up that told me that there was nothing wrong with combining or mixing cipralex and ibuprofen(cold and sinus meds). A good 3 days of hell for me.:afr

AND BY THE WAY DO NOT CUT THE "WELLBUTRIN XL" since the milligrams or whatever it contains is not proportionate in all parts of the pill if you get what I mean?! |You will get extreme highs and lows when it's suppose to act like that but rather consistency is what "XL" is suppose to offer. Check out a post of kehcorpz that spoke about that I think on this thread or another.


----------



## wizeguy

wizeguy said:


> Hey there gotanxiety, thanks for your input about those type of pills and surprisingly it's actually 2 different pharmacists prior to popping 1 up that told me that there was nothing wrong with combining or mixing cipralex and ibuprofen(cold and sinus meds). A good 3 days of hell for me.:afr
> 
> AND BY THE WAY DO NOT CUT THE "WELLBUTRIN XL" since the milligrams or whatever it contains is not proportionate in all parts of the pill if you get what I mean?! |You will get extreme highs and lows when it's suppose to act like that but rather consistency is what "XL" is suppose to offer. Check out a post of kehcorpz that spoke about that I think on this thread or another.


***NOT suppose to act like that but rather consistently*** forgot one word


----------



## mikoy

Kehcorpz I'm buying wellbutrin 300 mg in Poland for 118 zl (36 $) - oryginal GSK (wellbutrin XR).


----------



## riptide991

mikoy said:


> Kehcorpz I'm buying wellbutrin 300 mg in Poland for 118 zl (36 $) - oryginal GSK (wellbutrin XR).


That's awesome! Hey I'm a citizen I can always fly there every month and buy it hehe.


----------



## riptide991

Day 31: Another one of those days where I only slept 5 and a half hours but woke up with a massive amount of energy. As I was laying in bed I was planning out my new workout routine. I've been doing a lot of hypertrophy work but it never works out for me. I gain more muscle using strength routines like an 8 set 3 rep type plan. So I'm feeling good right now, just ate a delicious butter croissant and having some coffee. I don't need the coffee but I do it for the taste. mmmmm


----------



## mikoy

yeah, coffee tastes better on dopaminergic drugs  (another is mirtazapine) I hate coffee while I'm on SSRI :f


----------



## riptide991

mikoy said:


> yeah, coffee tastes better on dopaminergic drugs  (another is mirtazapine) I hate coffee while I'm on SSRI :f


I loved Mirtazapine and Zoloft when they worked, but a few months later it stopped. It was the best relief I've had to date and I'm hoping Wellbutrin provides that soon. It appears to be showing signs that it may. Man today I have so much energy and just have a general smile on my face. You know how you just feel the muscles in your cheeks, that's how you know you're in a good mood. When you're in a bad mood your muscles just sag.


----------



## basuraeuropea

mikoy said:


> yeah, coffee tastes better on dopaminergic drugs  (another is mirtazapine) I hate coffee while I'm on SSRI :f


mirtazapine isn't much of a dopaminergic. ha. i mean, it's an antagonist at d1 through d4 and has a negligible affinity for the DAT at ic50 1,000nm.


----------



## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> mirtazapine isn't much of a dopaminergic. ha. i mean, it's an antagonist at d1 through d4 and has a negligible affinity for the DAT at ic50 1,000nm.


LOL you know how much mirtazapine you would have to ingest for it to become an antagonist at the dopamine receptors?


Dopamine D1 receptor (Ki=4,167nM) [67]
Dopamine D2 receptor (Ki=1,460nM) [68]
Dopamine D3 receptor (Ki=5,723nM) [69]
Dopamine D4 receptor (Ki=25nM) [70]
Basically D4 is the only one that would be impacted with regular doses, even if you went way above regular doses you would never hit 1460nm to get the D2 receptor. Blocking D4 isn't a bad thing though. But yah I've read studies of mirtazapine having an indirect affect on dopamine through the blockage of all the other receptor sites. If you go to http://www.neurotransmitter.net/mirtazapine.html you will see a tonne of studies, and these aren't even up to date, there's been even more since hehe.



> Millan MJ, Gobert A, Rivet JM, Adhumeau-Auclair A, Cussac D, Newman-Tancredi A, Dekeyne A, Nicolas JP, Lejeune F.
> *Mirtazapine enhances frontocortical dopaminergic and corticolimbic adrenergic, but not serotonergic, transmission by blockade of alpha2-adrenergic and serotonin2C receptors: a comparison with citalopram.*







> Nakayama K, Sakurai T, Katsu H.
> *Mirtazapine increases dopamine release in prefrontal cortex by 5-HT(1A) receptor activation.*
> Brain Res Bull. 2004 Apr 30;63(3):237-41.




There's a lot just posting 2 quick ones I found hehe.

Just a quick note, I definitely felt the dopaminergic effects of mirtazapine. It's why I'm taking wellbutrin because Mirtazapine when it worked gave me the best feeling of reward and made me want to do things that I once loved.


----------



## basuraeuropea

i stand corrected! although i'm on mirtazapine and it certainly doesn't *feel* dopaminergic at all which is the complete opposite reaction to the one you had. oh, idiosyncrasy. that said, it still isn't very dopaminergic, increasing dopamine only slightly if at all in most individuals, antagonism aside.


----------



## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> i stand corrected! although i'm on mirtazapine and it certainly doesn't *feel* dopaminergic at all which is the complete opposite reaction to the one you had. oh, idiosyncrasy. that said, it still isn't very dopaminergic, increasing dopamine only slightly if at all in most individuals, antagonism aside.


It works better with an SSRI. Since the dopamine factor is due to 5-ht1a you may not have enough serotonin binding to it. Mirtazapine just blocks all the other receptors leaving 5-ht1a and D1-3 receptors alone. If you increase serotonin this automatically binds to 5-ht1a since it can't bind to the others. 5-ht1a can increase dopamine indirectly. It's quite cool stuff. This is partly why my doc combined it with zoloft.

But yah if you have taken mirtazapine for more than a few months chances are it pooped out. The poop out rate is extremely high.


----------



## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> It works better with an SSRI. Since the dopamine factor is due to 5-ht1a you may not have enough serotonin binding to it. Mirtazapine just blocks all the other receptors leaving 5-ht1a and D1-3 receptors alone. If you increase serotonin this automatically binds to 5-ht1a since it can't bind to the others. 5-ht1a can increase dopamine indirectly. It's quite cool stuff. This is partly why my doc combined it with zoloft.
> 
> But yah if you have taken mirtazapine for more than a few months chances are it pooped out. The poop out rate is extremely high.


i'm taking it alongside an ssri. it still doesn't feel dopaminergic.

and yeah, the poop-out rate for mirtazapine is about as high as it is for tianeptine, anecdotally speaking, anyway.


----------



## mikoy

Mirtazapine is one of the strongest 5-ht2c antagonist.

"5-HT2C receptors regulate dopamine release in the striatum, prefrontal cortex, nucleus accumbens, hippocampus, hypothalamus, and amygdala, among others."


----------



## riptide991

Day umm 32: Had to scroll up to figure out what day it is. So yah today is a pretty good day. I slept like a champ. I sort of feel like the Russian guy in Rocky IV, before he got beat up. I'm also in a very good smiley mood. In a joking mood. Feeling very content. Although it's still morning for me so I'm finishing off my 3rd cup of coffee and just reading the news. Gotta keep up with the news so that I have something to talk about other than the weather, yahh.
*
UPDATE 1: Holy crap! I got this urge to go workout today. So I hit the gym and to my surprise it was one of the greatest workouts I've had in a while. Odd part is that my strength went up in all the lifts from the last time I worked out. And typically my strength goes down if i don't remain consistent and take long breaks. I haven't had it in me to workout the last while so I've been just slacking. I did a few forced workouts a few weeks back but they were bad and exhaustive. This workout reminded me of when I was in college using ephedrine, bromocriptine and andro. I was so focused and just able to lift more. I guess it makes sense since dopamine and norepinephrine would be responsible for increased firing of motor neurons. I hope this remains consistent because I'd like to gain some of my mass back. I have gotten a bit skinnier these days when I used to be pretty shredded at 195lbs back in college. Heck, I know andro helped but maybe Wellbutrin's increase in DHEA-S may be responsible too. I have noticed my abs becoming way more visible since I started, I attributed it to loss of water retention since I peed a lot at first. *


----------



## riptide991

Wow, I am experiencing some insane post-workout euphoria. I've never felt it like this. Mmmm on a cloud. And one of them nice and fluffy ones, not a rain cloud or anything like that.

Not to mention listening to Journey - anyway you want it. That's scary.


----------



## Mish

@kehcorpz, im glad you found something that works for you. 13 day wellbutrin, hardly can see a difference. Hoping it changes. You said it takes a while but im on 150mg. Taking stablon, took 3 pills this morning with the wellbutrin, definitely felt effects from the stablon, sort of opiodish feeling.


----------



## riptide991

@Mish, yah it's just now starting to kick in after 1 month 150mg and 1 month 300mg. But every time you change your dose you have to start all over and give it full 6-8 weeks. So technically only 1 month in on 300mg and have to give it another month. Weird about stablon and the opioid feeling I thought it only works on serotonin. Even though it has other mechanisms that confuse the medical field.

Day 33: I only slept 6 hours but felt pretty energized. Stayed up late last night watching a movie so probably that's why I got so little sleep. I'm freaking sore today from the workout yesterday. Going to take it easy and relax today.


----------



## Mish

@kehcoprz, its a sort of fluttery spacy effect at high dose, the stablon i mean. I guess you could consider that a serotonin agonist feeling or whatever but its similar to sensation as perhaps a weaker opiod agonist kratom or something like this. I think it will poop out quick because first it was 2 pills to feel that way now its around 3-4. Its an interested compound. I think it works better cycling or something though. Though the recommend dose is one pill 3 times a day, it wont have any effect. It kicks in immediately.


----------



## riptide991

@mish ahh! Yah I'm reading on wiki it apparently lowers serotonin. It has a lot of confusing research on it.

You ever get any side effects from it?


----------



## Mish

@kehcorpz no side effects. And little interaction with anything. If it wasn't so expensive i might use it more often simply because of the repairing properties it has in parts of the brain and promotes neuron growth. I take it with aniracetam aswell. I doubt im getting any smarters from the combo! Haha who knows they are both well researched properties. Why not?


----------



## riptide991

Hey Mish definitely sounds good! 

Day 33 continued: Man been feeling good today but also keeping it lazy. Did a lot of music listening. I also messaged some girls on a dating site and I would never do that usually, I would just talk to the girls messaging me. And I did it as if it was nothing, didn't even think about it. So that's cool.


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## mikoy

Yes, I noticed this too - stumulating effect on socializing


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## riptide991

mikoy said:


> Yes, I noticed this too - stumulating effect on socializing


It's great! I don't feel as awkward around my family either. It's like I would always think about what i'm gonna say and worry about awkward silences. Now it just doesn't go through my head at all, i just live in the present.


----------



## Mish

@kehcorpz, your enthusiasm has one of those feelings where you feel its going overly great, then one day it is snatched away from you. I hope you can stay on it forever, but we both know that might not be possible. I'm wondering the same for long term usable on wellbutrin, i think the solution might be to cycle on at off 

Has any research of yours indicated that wellbutrin may stop working after a certain period of time?


----------



## thundercats

I read in here that you may have to take it 1-2 months before you notice anything? 
I have my next appointment in 5 weeks and then I'm supposed to tell if it's working or not. Damn. 
I need to find something which works asap. I cannot afford to take a drug for 2 months straight in order to find out that it sucks.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Man im such an idiot i drank on wellbutrin and cipralex i caused a fight became homeless and broke my arm it was fun but damn lucky i didn't go too jail like the last time.


----------



## riptide991

Mish said:


> @kehcorpz, your enthusiasm has one of those feelings where you feel its going overly great, then one day it is snatched away from you. I hope you can stay on it forever, but we both know that might not be possible. I'm wondering the same for long term usable on wellbutrin, i think the solution might be to cycle on at off
> 
> Has any research of yours indicated that wellbutrin may stop working after a certain period of time?


Well from anecdotal reports, Wellbutrin seems to be one of those drugs that seems to last the longest. It may eventually poop out but I'm seeing people taking it for 10 years and still being fine. It's possible that they don't even need to take it anymore. But I would rather take it forever than spiral down that depressed path again.



thundercats said:


> I read in here that you may have to take it 1-2 months before you notice anything?
> I have my next appointment in 5 weeks and then I'm supposed to tell if it's working or not. Damn.
> I need to find something which works asap. I cannot afford to take a drug for 2 months straight in order to find out that it sucks.


Yah if you noticed, I'm 34 days into it and just now i'm starting to notice the effects kicking in properly. In fact here's the day 34 update.

Day 34: Great day. I felt pretty good. I did some cooking and actually enjoyed it. Usually I hate cooking and only do it because I need to. But yah if I start cooking i'll go upstairs to my computer and usually forget about the food. But today I actually stayed down there and didn't feel the need to go upstairs to the computer as I was enjoying it. I had a lot of coffee today and didn't feel jittery at all. I played some video games and just did a lot of reading as usual. I wrote a new workout routine that I want to start tomorrow. Things are good. Although I was a bit extra horny today and ended up watching some porn, but no biggy haha.


----------



## riptide991

Day 35: Ok so today is already a good start. Now, I seem to be having these weird fluctuations in my sleep. For instance the last 2 days I slept maybe 6 hours. Today however, I slept 10 hours. And I just feel freaking great! Either way if I sleep 6 hours or 10 hours I still feel good. So we will see what happens tomorrow. Oh man I've been horny all morning too. Even the shape of the letter "S" is giving me wood.


----------



## srschirm

kehcorpz said:


> Day 35: Ok so today is already a good start. Now, I seem to be having these weird fluctuations in my sleep. For instance the last 2 days I slept maybe 6 hours. Today however, I slept 10 hours. And I just feel freaking great! Either way if I sleep 6 hours or 10 hours I still feel good. So we will see what happens tomorrow. Oh man I've been horny all morning too. Even the shape of the letter "S" is giving me wood.


Are you on anything else besides the Wellbutrin? Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread.


----------



## riptide991

srschirm said:


> Are you on anything else besides the Wellbutrin? Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread.


YAh, Zoloft. I update my signature with my meds pretty regularly. I have lowered my Zoloft from 200mg to 50mg since starting wellbutrin. I just didn't want Zolofts inhibiting effects to get in the way of Wellbutrin's activating effects.


----------



## srschirm

kehcorpz said:


> YAh, Zoloft. I update my signature with my meds pretty regularly. I have lowered my Zoloft from 200mg to 50mg since starting wellbutrin. I just didn't want Zolofts inhibiting effects to get in the way of Wellbutrin's activating effects.


<-----stupid. Wow, duh. I tried Wellbutrin about 10 years ago, and thought I got a skin rash so I discontinued after two days....it was so long ago now I'm not sure what happened exactly, if I made it up in my mind or what. I have a hard time complying with the SSRIs because of the sexual side effects. Does the Wellbutrin help at all in this regard?


----------



## riptide991

srschirm said:


> <-----stupid. Wow, duh. I tried Wellbutrin about 10 years ago, and thought I got a skin rash so I discontinued after two days....it was so long ago now I'm not sure what happened exactly, if I made it up in my mind or what. I have a hard time complying with the SSRIs because of the sexual side effects. Does the Wellbutrin help at all in this regard?


The skin rash is possible, it's one of the side effects. So it's probably not for you. Yah wellbutrin brought my sex drive way up. It's sometimes used with SSRIs to get rid of the sexual side effects.


----------



## Edwin18

kehcorpz said:


> The skin rash is possible, it's one of the side effects. So it's probably not for you. Yah wellbutrin brought my sex drive way up. It's sometimes used with SSRIs to get rid of the sexual side effects.


You should update your profile picture, to the new you (Happy). Not sad and awkward like in the pic you have now.


----------



## WineKitty

I wish SSRI's worked for me but after 3 failed trials I know they don't. I know they work for a lot of people and that is great. Instead, I was given benzos a few years ago and now am a full blown addict who cannot envision how to break the habit. They used to help--now I need them just to feel normal.


----------



## riptide991

Edwin18 said:


> You should update your profile picture, to the new you (Happy). Not sad and awkward like in the pic you have now.


Hahah well better than a forced smile, those always look more awkward.



WineKitty said:


> I wish SSRI's worked for me but after 3 failed trials I know they don't. I know they work for a lot of people and that is great. Instead, I was given benzos a few years ago and now am a full blown addict who cannot envision how to break the habit. They used to help--now I need them just to feel normal.


Well Wellbutrin is not an SSRI so 

Not sure why a lot of people confuse Wellbutrin for an SSRI. It doesn't even touch serotonin.


----------



## thundercats

What kind of skin rash are you guys talking about? Are you talking about the possibly lethal skin reactions which are mentioned in the leaflet? 
Does this mean when you're on wellbutrin and notice some kind of rash then you're screwed and need to get to the ER asap? That's scary.


----------



## Inshallah

No, it isn't sudden in nature, just starts itching and then of course gets worse with time. But you'll have plenty of time to stop the Wellbutrin and you certainly don't need to go to ER for it.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> What kind of skin rash are you guys talking about? Are you talking about the possibly lethal skin reactions which are mentioned in the leaflet?
> Does this mean when you're on wellbutrin and notice some kind of rash then you're screwed and need to get to the ER asap? That's scary.


LOL you are the most paranoid person on earth. It's really rare. I have heard of some people getting it but most people do not get it. It's just a regular red rash. You are probably thinking about stevens-johnson syndrome. This is one of the rarest reactions of all. And even if you were to get it it would go away when the drug is stopped. Plus if you see a rash appearing obviously talk to your doctor. But you're more likely to win the lottery.


----------



## thundercats

I don't know if it's SJ Syndrome the leaflet only talked about a potentially dangerous skin reaction which could occur.
It also said that this skin reaction can also affect the mouth and not only the external skin.

How can one know if it's only a regular non-dangerous rash or a serious rash?


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I don't know if it's SJ Syndrome the leaflet only talked about a potentially dangerous skin reaction which could occur.
> It also said that this skin reaction can also affect the mouth and not only the external skin.
> 
> How can one know if it's only a regular non-dangerous rash or a serious rash?


I would imagine if you notice something weird, you ask your doctor he will see.


----------



## thundercats

But my doctor is a professor at a clinic and he's 1 hour away. I can't just drive over to him like you would to a regular doctor. I also don't even think that he sees patients every day. He probably also does other stuff in between. I don't think he could help me if I got a rash. Then I could only go to the ER and I don't know if they could help me with the rash either cause at the ER in my town they only have interns and surgeons.


----------



## WineKitty

kehcorpz said:


> Well Wellbutrin is not an SSRI so
> 
> Not sure why a lot of people confuse Wellbutrin for an SSRI. It doesn't even touch serotonin.


Well, I don't claim to be an expert. You are right, it's not an SSRI--my mistake. I have a failed trial of WB in my history and probably should have known that but it's been eons now since I tried it. Caused rage in me. So did BuSpar. Celexa made me feel like a robot.


----------



## riptide991

WineKitty said:


> Well, I don't claim to be an expert. You are right, it's not an SSRI--my mistake. I have a failed trial of WB in my history and probably should have known that but it's been eons now since I tried it. Caused rage in me. So did BuSpar. Celexa made me feel like a robot.


You totally were claiming to be an expert! But yah as you can see by this thread you really need to give wellbutrin 2 months. I mean for me it's just starting to show its effects. And maybe back then they didn't have XL? There is more failures on the other release types.

Day 35 continued: So yesterday I hit the gym again. I had a great workout and had that nice euphoria feeling again. Had a great day though I had trouble falling asleep that night. I think it's because I went to bed too late. For some reason if I don't go to bed at a normal time it will be even harder for me to fall asleep. Damn computer!

Day 36: As mentioned above I couldn't fall asleep until late. I usually take 1/4th zopiclone so I ended up popping another 1/4th because I wasn't able to fall asleep and that did the trick. I slept a good 8 hours so not complaining. It's a rainy day today but I have this urge to go jogging in the rain. I think it will be refreshing although it's pretty cold out there. I got to figure out how to dress. But I'm still drinking coffee so I got plenty of time to figure that out.


----------



## WineKitty

I am pretty sure that it wasn't the XL version I was on. I am always glad to hear when someone finds something that works for them without it being overly addictive or having nasty side effects. I hope it continues to work for you!


----------



## riptide991

Woo that was an interesting jog. I under dressed unfortunately. I didn't account for the wind and should have worn gloves as my hands were freezing. It was a tough jog. I can't say Wellbutrin was to blame as I always have trouble getting back into it when I haven't done it in a while. But I also think the damn wind constantly blowing against me made things much harder! It doesn't matter what direction I ran it kept doing it. Then at the end right by my house when I'm stopping it calms down. I blame Storm from X-men.


----------



## riptide991

Day 37: Woke up feeling great! I added benadryl to my sleep aid last night, just 37.5mg and combined with 1/4th zopiclone pill and a few micrograms of melatonin. I slept so well. This morning though I had lots of energy and just felt good whistling and singing random weird songs with goofy lyrics. I did my squat routine today. I haven't done squats in ages because they are really tough, at least I always make my workouts super tough when it comes to legs. And I got through it pretty well, my legs were trembling but that's pretty much normal. What i'm surprised with is that I'm working out pretty much daily and still feeling great, not getting exhausted and I'm not sore for a whole week. Usually if I came back from a hiatus where I haven't worked out in a while the first workout would make me super sore. Seems my recovery has improved greatly. I have increased my intensity too and I can get through it with more enthusiasm. Before it was like "just 2 more sets and i'm done" mentality. Now it's more of a "sweet this set is going to rock" mentality. It would be nice to get back to my college physique. I was pretty ripped back then. Men's health cover model ripped heh. When my depression got really bad my workouts started taking a beating too. I still forced myself constantly but I was probably over training as my recovery was down. 

I noticed have to force myself to remember to eat as I never get that hunger in my stomach that i used to get. I can still eat just as much I just don't have an inner clock telling me it's time to eat. I can get into a video game and play for hours and never even get hungry. So I have to be cautious to remember since I don't want to lose muscle. 

What can I say, enjoying some nice buckwheat right now. I think this is a good sign of things to come. I think my anhedonia is starting to get beaten down as I actually am starting to enjoy working out again. I just hope I make a 100% recovery in that area. Hell, I would accept having bad social anxiety over anhedonia any day.


----------



## srschirm

Nice to hear someone doing well. Congratulations for crossing the 1,000 post rubicon, kehcorpz.


----------



## mikoy

Wellbutrin works better than sertraline+mirtazapine for your anhedonia?


----------



## riptide991

srschirm said:


> Nice to hear someone doing well. Congratulations for crossing the 1,000 post rubicon, kehcorpz.


Thanks but I don't think that should be seen as an accomplishment, hehe.



mikoy said:


> Wellbutrin works better than sertraline+mirtazapine for your anhedonia?


Well, not yet! But it seems to be going in the same direction. It's a bit different because I have actually had way more interest in working out and more energy. With Remeron/Zoloft I was more interested in intellectual pursuits like programming. Although I think that the wellbutrin is just slow acting. I mean If I gave it up after a month I wouldn't even get to where I am today. So glad I stuck with it.


----------



## clemsonkyle

kehcorpz said:


> Day 37: Woke up feeling great! I added benadryl to my sleep aid last night, just 37.5mg and combined with 1/4th zopiclone pill and a few micrograms of melatonin. I slept so well. This morning though I had lots of energy and just felt good whistling and singing random weird songs with goofy lyrics. I did my squat routine today. I haven't done squats in ages because they are really tough, at least I always make my workouts super tough when it comes to legs. And I got through it pretty well, my legs were trembling but that's pretty much normal. What i'm surprised with is that I'm working out pretty much daily and still feeling great, not getting exhausted and I'm not sore for a whole week. Usually if I came back from a hiatus where I haven't worked out in a while the first workout would make me super sore. Seems my recovery has improved greatly. I have increased my intensity too and I can get through it with more enthusiasm. Before it was like "just 2 more sets and i'm done" mentality. Now it's more of a "sweet this set is going to rock" mentality. It would be nice to get back to my college physique. I was pretty ripped back then. Men's health cover model ripped heh. When my depression got really bad my workouts started taking a beating too. I still forced myself constantly but I was probably over training as my recovery was down.
> 
> I noticed have to force myself to remember to eat as I never get that hunger in my stomach that i used to get. I can still eat just as much I just don't have an inner clock telling me it's time to eat. I can get into a video game and play for hours and never even get hungry. So I have to be cautious to remember since I don't want to lose muscle.
> 
> What can I say, enjoying some nice buckwheat right now. I think this is a good sign of things to come. I think my anhedonia is starting to get beaten down as I actually am starting to enjoy working out again. I just hope I make a 100% recovery in that area. Hell, I would accept having bad social anxiety over anhedonia any day.


Ive been on Wellbutrin XL for over a year now and I have had some positive results. My biggest problem was not being able to sleep. Now I just take some melatonin and I'm out in a few minutes. It defiently helps with depression and anxiety. Do you ever drink while taking it? Ive noticed the days after I drink my symptoms return.


----------



## riptide991

clemsonkyle said:


> Ive been on Wellbutrin XL for over a year now and I have had some positive results. My biggest problem was not being able to sleep. Now I just take some melatonin and I'm out in a few minutes. It defiently helps with depression and anxiety. Do you ever drink while taking it? Ive noticed the days after I drink my symptoms return.


Yah I've been taking sleeping aids since day 1. I highly recommend Benadryl which I just recently started. But if melatonin is working for you it's all good.

I don't drink. I stopped drinking when I got onto medicine. It seems that the meds do something where I don't have any urges for alcohol at all. It's not recommended I know that for sure. I think Zoloft may be responsible for that part. I know when I was on Zoloft/Remeron, i tried some wine here and there but I never got that same feeling from it. It was almost uncomfortable.


----------



## mikoy

Sadly but I must change my meds and go from wellbutrin to sertraline+mirtazapine (thanks kehcorpz! .

My OCD has returned :f And SSRI are only meds that works for that. (previously I was OCD free on paroxetine). 

Sweating and other noradrenergic symptoms are the second reason why I'm leaving this medication.

Good Luck


----------



## GotAnxiety

kehcorpz said:


> Yah I've been taking sleeping aids since day 1. I highly recommend Benadryl which I just recently started. But if melatonin is working for you it's all good.


[email protected] Don't you find Zopiclone and Melatonin suppress libido and reduce arousel? Back when i was taking zopiclone it took away my morning wood and made me depressed so i quit taking it plus it a ***** too discontinue.

Day 9

I've been meaning too post an update for awhile alot of positive thing's been happening specially in the libido department thing's are hanging lower haha like that blue alien off the Watchmen i've notice that i got like no water retention and my inflammation is like non existent so i think i look better but my joints kinda feel weaken in a way.

Since starting the Wellbutrin it took me alittle over aweek too settle into it the insomnia/restlessness is pretty bad it can make ya feel like crap but once you get past that your body adapts too it.

Im having trouble putting together creative sentences its why i haven't been posting in awhile but i had 2 vivid dream's so far one was a back to back 3 some and the other one was insane crazy dream when i woke up i felt like killing my self right at the end of the dream there was that listen too your heart song which really freak me out.

Here how im feeling i feel like a boxer on the stuff it feels real easy too swing your arms it kinda turns ya into one of those skinny dudes that are real horny almost makes you walk with a swagger like one of those crackheads i wonder how harmful the longterm side effects of taking this are and how bad the withdraws would be getting off.

I had too discontinue wellbutrin for 2 day's after drinking cause i couldn't sleep for 2 days and i was scared of seizure my brain felt all tingly and my arm's felt shaken hell that could of been from not taking the drug's that was during the period i had those dream's as while.


----------



## riptide991

mikoy said:


> Sadly but I must change my meds and go from wellbutrin to sertraline+mirtazapine (thanks kehcorpz! .
> 
> My OCD has returned :f And SSRI are only meds that works for that. (previously I was OCD free on paroxetine).
> 
> Sweating and other noradrenergic symptoms are the second reason why I'm leaving this medication.
> 
> Good Luck


aww shucks, hope Remeron doesn't poop out for you. Great drug when it's workign.



GotAnxiety said:


> [email protected] Don't you find Zopiclone and Melatonin suppress libido and reduce arousel? Back when i was taking zopiclone it took awhile my morning wood and made me depressed so i quit taking it plus it a ***** too discontinue.
> 
> I've been meaning too post an update for awhile alot of positive thing been happening specially in the libido department thing's are hanging lower haha like that blue alien off the Watchmen i've notice that i got like no water retention and my inflammation is like non existent so i think i look better but my joints kinda feel weaken in a way.
> 
> "Still Editing "
> Since starting the Wellbutrin it took me alittle over aweek too settle into it the insomnia/restlessness is pretty bad it can make ya feel like crap but once you get past that your body adapts too it.


I never use a full zopiclone tablet, I was using half a tablet, now I'm breaking it into 1/4th of a tablet and taking melatonin and benadryl. I've never had issues with morning wood or libido. In fact, I have way more morning wood since the wellbutrin. Keep in mind that most melatonin sells at 3mg. That is ridiculously high. I take MICROgrams. 1 3mg pill lasts me a good 2 weeks if not more. I simply open the capsule put it in a continer and then I'll dip my finger into it and suck the tiny bit that stuck to my finger. This is one of those supplements that has been way over dosed.

Yah the inflammation is definitely caused by tnf-alpha. And yah like me I have no water retention so I look much more toned.


----------



## Mish

@kehcorpz, just finished the stablon. Going onto zoloft 50mg with the butrin. Anything to watch out for with zoloft? you had any crappy side effects from it? albeit they are never as bad as people make them out to be.


----------



## riptide991

Mish said:


> @kehcorpz, just finished the stablon. Going onto zoloft 50mg with the butrin. Anything to watch out for with zoloft? you had any crappy side effects from it? albeit they are never as bad as people make them out to be.


Honestly felt nothing with Zoloft. But possibly because Remeron was balancing it. Now when I stopped Remeron felt nothing either. When I say felt nothing I mean with the bad stuff. I did feel positive stuff like less OCD, less general anxiety. I could walk in grocery stores and not think everyone is looking at me or even care what's going on around me, just focused on what I wanted to.


----------



## Mish

Sweet. Im glad i found this combo. By the looks of it, it Zoloft and Butrin were ment to be! Gahh i have the generics of both meds, I hope they are as effective as the Brand ones! lol


----------



## GotAnxiety

[email protected] Im thinking of switching too zoloft to. do you notice a difference with the restlessness between zoloft and cipralex and how do they effect your skin if there even a difference? How about muscle weakness were your muscle stronger on zoloft?


----------



## mikoy

kehcorpz said:


> I did feel positive stuff like less OCD, less general anxiety. I could walk in grocery stores and not think everyone is looking at me or even care what's going on around me, just focused on what I wanted to.


That's why I'm back on SSRI  In that regard they're great for social anxiety. I hope that mirtazapine will give me some motivation to socializing...

Maybe I will return to wellbutrin if my OCD will be controlled by SSRI.

My main problem is anhedonia.


----------



## riptide991

Mish said:


> Sweet. Im glad i found this combo. By the looks of it, it Zoloft and Butrin were ment to be! Gahh i have the generics of both meds, I hope they are as effective as the Brand ones! lol


Well, from my understanding Wellbutrin in generic is not the best, at least the XL version. Especially the TEVA brand. In fact, in Canada they haven't approved a generic because none have matched the fda requirements.



GotAnxiety said:


> [email protected] Im thinking of switching too zoloft to. do you notice a difference with the restlessness between zoloft and cipralex and how do they effect your skin if there even a difference? How about muscle weakness were your muscle stronger on zoloft?


Cipralex didn't give me any restlessness it just made me sleep all the time. I was sooo tired. Zoloft I was fine, no restlessness or anything. Just normal.

I didn't notice anything in terms of muscles.



mikoy said:


> That's why I'm back on SSRI  In that regard they're great for social anxiety. I hope that mirtazapine will give me some motivation to socializing...
> 
> Maybe I will return to wellbutrin if my OCD will be controlled by SSRI.
> 
> My main problem is anhedonia.


Yah that's a big problem for me too. Wellbutrin didn't work for your anhedonia?


----------



## riptide991

Oh yah forgot to do day 38.

Day 38: Great day, my legs were so sore I could barely walk so I played video games... and..... READ A BOOK! 

Yah i'm floored. I haven't read in a while because of the anhedonia, seems i'm slowly coming back. Nothing else to report there really.

Day 39: Barely slept, legs are still sore, even moreso. Hoping by tomorrow my legs are back to normal. I don't want to workout while still recovering even if it is a different body part. Focus is doing great. Typically i'm easily distracted while reading news but these days I won't do anything until I'm finished the story. Before it would be "read a paragraph, do something else, read another paragraph". Very ADD like symptom heh.


----------



## mikoy

No, it's not working for my anhedonia :f


----------



## GotAnxiety

Day 10 alright day i had 4 hours sleep woke up stayed awake 1 to 2 hours went back to bed for 3 felt good when waking up did some moving today feel weak kinda which gives me anxiety did some rippers tonight big mistake waste of time and money as well drank 6 beers had trouble sleeping duh  Day 11 i feel like **** body sore as hell energy drinks feel amazing on this stuff just buzzing viberating with energry im almost to hyperactive and shakey haha sleep is necessary for this combination to work to replenish neruotransmiter/restore body establishing healthy sleeping routine is paramount for success. When i went 2 days without taking welly there awhile back i felt amazing from the sleep i hope my sleep improves.


----------



## thundercats

You drank 6 beer while taking wellbutrin? 
Are you not afraid of seizures?


----------



## CD700

I got tanked a few times on Wellbutrin and never had a problem
Smoking ciggies on it made me feel **** though


----------



## GotAnxiety

thundercats said:


> You drank 6 beer while taking wellbutrin?
> Are you not afraid of seizures?


No im not scared of nothing. I was drinking slow plus i never blacked out this time so it never presented a problem just buzz really good but that faded and i still had trouble sleeping i still wouldn't drink on it. i folded under peer pressure after resisting for 2 day's i gave in after doing lines cause the vasoconstriction sucked never got high such a waste of time . This combination i would say is the closest thing to legal sustainable 24/7 cocaine anyways or probably the closest thing too it.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Day 12 i can't believe how hard i crashed last night i literally slept a solid 7 to 8 hours i look in the mirror i got these black bags underneath my eyes and my skins dry. i think it might be time too increase my dose again pretty soon here not sure which way ill go. I wanna try adderall or dex with it i doubt it will do anything but i wonder if it will help with the hyperactivity it just may be a dumb idea all together caffeine seems too work good. I woke up too one of elivus pesley songs in my head "i love you baby i love you so".


----------



## baxman

i started welbutrin to treat my anhedonia and it helped a little bit at the beginning.it seemed i enjoyed videogames more and maybe i was a little more eager to socialize.the longer i used it though, the less it worked.i was expecting welbutrin to get rid of at least 50% of my anhedonia and by doing that, i would get more motivated and interested in life and doing things.it didnt work though.

what i found strange on welbutrin when it comes to anhedonia is that i anticipated events much more when on welbutrin but that didnt help me enjoy the event any more than i normally would.i was still anhedonic .anhedonia just destroys your quality of life.


----------



## riptide991

baxman said:


> i started welbutrin to treat my anhedonia and it helped a little bit at the beginning.it seemed i enjoyed videogames more and maybe i was a little more eager to socialize.the longer i used it though, the less it worked.i was expecting welbutrin to get rid of at least 50% of my anhedonia and by doing that, i would get more motivated and interested in life and doing things.it didnt work though.
> 
> what i found strange on welbutrin when it comes to anhedonia is that i anticipated events much more when on welbutrin but that didnt help me enjoy the event any more than i normally would.i was still anhedonic .anhedonia just destroys your quality of life.


Yah I think anhedonia is what lead to my depression, and not vice versa. But this is hard to really tell. All I know is that when I became suicidal there was no sadness, simply a feeling of derealization and no emotions, no interests and so life was really meaningless. Plus I have been reading a lot of studies recently on anhedonia and behaviour in mice and such. And one thing that seems to really be common with anhedonia is that there's no reward from foods like sugar. This is something that I've noticed all my life. I never liked sugar I got nothing from it. On Halloween I gave away all my candy and just kept the chips. Obviously that's not a marker as there were other symptoms too, but I find it funny how people are so addicted to sugar and I just don't get it.

I went off Zoloft last night as I don't think it was really doing anything. I took Remeron/Zoloft together so I didn't know which was working but I assume that the Remeron's indirect action on dopamine was probably why it worked. So if Wellbutrin isn't the cure all in the next 23 days I will add some prozac to block 5-ht2c. It has to be a low dose as higher doses the serotonin overpowers the effects of the 5-ht2c antagonism.


----------



## thundercats

GotAnxiety said:


> No im not scared of nothing. I was drinking slow plus i never blacked out this time so it never presented a problem just buzz really good but that faded and i still had trouble sleeping i still wouldn't drink on it. i folded under peer pressure after resisting for 2 day's i gave in after doing lines cause the vasoconstriction sucked never got high such a waste of time . This combination i would say is the closest thing to legal sustainable 24/7 cocaine anyways or probably the closest thing too it.


What does drinking slow have to do with seizure risk?
What if you drink slow and still get a seizure? Whatcha gonna do then?


----------



## Mish

@kehcorpz, a shame zoloft didnt work out. I will go through with it for a couple of months to really tell if it works or not. Have you considered Lexapro? suppose to be good for especially depression.


----------



## Mish

And i need you to expand more on this Remeron stuff, you keep going on about it and ive never heard of it! Is it an ssri? Can you explain how it helped you and be a little specific please i might check it out if zoloft fails. Was there side effects?


----------



## riptide991

Mish said:


> @kehcorpz, a shame zoloft didnt work out. I will go through with it for a couple of months to really tell if it works or not. Have you considered Lexapro? suppose to be good for especially depression.


Well, I did lexapro on its own. And I pretty much laid in bed the entire time I was on it. Horrible experience, just insane fatigue. It worked though I didn't want to kill myself cuz I was too tired. 

Seriously, my problem is anhedonia. And since I started wellbutrin I realized that since it's having a paradoxal effect on me and lowering my anxiety, serotonin is probably not my issue. To be honest today I have felt even better than ever after stopping Zoloft last night. Granted it takes 7 days to clear the system, but there's less of it in my system due to half life. I need something energizing. Prozac is actually the only SSRI that could help with energy as its effects on dopamine are actually pretty strong according to studies. But depending on how things turn out my next appointment with the psych will either continue me on wellbutrin or augment it with something. That's something I will have to decide after about 20 days. heh.


----------



## baxman

^same thing here, i desperately need something that is energizing that doesnt give me added anxiety or irritability.i also need something to eliminate my anhedonia, what else is there besides welbutrin?im not depressed for the most part thats whats strange in my case.im mostly apathetic and just blank.

i have to think that if anhedonia was lessened, our motivation to go out and do things would naturally come back, correct?right now, we have to force ourselves out to do things and the end result is we dont get any enjoyment so its a failure overall.this breeds more isolation, then depression and additional anxiety or apathy.

pretty much everything i have read about anhedonia correlates it directly to depression.im much more anhedonic than i am depressed if that makes any sense.?


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## thundercats

When you start with Wellbutrin slow-release then do you feel an immediate effect? Cause if not then couldn't you also take it in the evening?


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## mikoy

kehcorpz mirtazapine has strong effect on sugar cravings by antagonising 5-ht2c.


----------



## riptide991

baxman said:


> ^same thing here, i desperately need something that is energizing that doesnt give me added anxiety or irritability.i also need something to eliminate my anhedonia, what else is there besides welbutrin?im not depressed for the most part thats whats strange in my case.im mostly apathetic and just blank.
> 
> i have to think that if anhedonia was lessened, our motivation to go out and do things would naturally come back, correct?right now, we have to force ourselves out to do things and the end result is we dont get any enjoyment so its a failure overall.this breeds more isolation, then depression and additional anxiety or apathy.
> 
> pretty much everything i have read about anhedonia correlates it directly to depression.im much more anhedonic than i am depressed if that makes any sense.?


Adderall works for some, but I would never touch it because I've heard horror stories from it. Mostly that it caused depression in people and bad withdrawal and tolerance.

Parnate may be something you may look into, I heard good things about it for anhedonia. It may be something I may do in the future if the first class treatments don't help me.



thundercats said:


> When you start with Wellbutrin slow-release then do you feel an immediate effect? Cause if not then couldn't you also take it in the evening?


I guess it could, but I take it in the morning. I have no trouble sleeping after taking it. Everyone is different.



mikoy said:


> kehcorpz mirtazapine has strong effect on sugar cravings by antagonising 5-ht2c.


Really? I didn't know that. I thought it played on cravings through its histamine action. Regardless, it never gave me any cravings.


----------



## Inshallah

Mirtazapine doesn't give cravings for specific foods, it just makes you very hungry.


----------



## riptide991

Day 40-42: Great days, especially day 42, was feeling awesome. I did my gym training, read books, played games and just was overall productive.

Day 43: Today i'm a bit tired. I've been using benadryl to help me sleep without the zopiclone as I want to get off of it. Last night I only had a tiny amount of benadryl left so I took that and added a 15mg of remeron since I have a lot of it left over. I slept 14 hours and had to force myself up. Now I'm drinking coffee trying to wake myself up haha. Bad idea.


----------



## riptide991

Found this study sort of interesting. Wellbutrin seems to be the only drug that increases REM latency and duration.



> REM sleep enhancement by
> bupropion in depressed men
> by
> Nofzinger EA, Reynolds CF 3rd, Thase ME, Frank E,
> Jennings JR, Fasiczka AL, Sullivan LR, Kupfer DJ
> Sleep and Chronobiology Center,
> University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine,
> Western Psychiatric Institute and Clinic, PA 15213.
> Am J Psychiatry 1995 Feb; 152(2):274-6
> 
> ABSTRACT
> 
> OBJECTIVE: The authors compared the effects of bupropion, fluoxetine, and cognitive behavior therapy on EEG sleep in depressed subjects. METHOD: All-night sleep EEG studies were performed before treatment and after partial or full remission on 18 men with depression diagnosed according to Research Diagnostic Criteria and randomly assigned to treatment with either bupropion (N = 7) or fluoxetine (N = 11). Response to these drugs was measured by changes in Hamilton Depression Rating Scale scores. Pre- and posttreatment EEG sleep study results before and after treatment with cognitive behavior therapy were also available for 18 men matched in age and severity of Hamilton depression scale score, and one-time EEG sleep measures were available for 36 men who were not depressed. RESULTS: REM latency was reduced and REM sleep percent and REM time increased after treatment in the depressed men given bupropion. These effects contrasted with the effects of fluoxetine and cognitive behavior therapy. CONCLUSIONS: This study represents the first report of an antidepressant medication that shortens REM latency and increases REM sleep. If confirmed, this finding may require a revision of our current understanding of the relation among depression, REM sleep, and anti-depressant mechanisms.


----------



## basuraeuropea

kehcorpz said:


> Found this study sort of interesting. Wellbutrin seems to be the only drug that increases REM latency and duration.


bupropion is not the only drug to purportedly do this - the literature is mixed (see below). off the top of my head, mirtazapine also does (and mianserin likely does as well), although i'm sure there are others that promote rather than suppress REM sleep.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hup.388/abstract (google mirtazapine + rem for the excerpt provided)


> In addition to this improvement in sleep efficiency, mirtazapine also increased REM latency, an effect that is consistent with its stimulatory effects on postsynaptic 5-HT and noradrenaline receptors.


this much more recent study than the one you provided - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16229049 - states that bupropion inhibits REM stage sleep. :stu


> REM sleep suppression has been observed with all TCAs except trimipramine, but especially clomipramine, with all MAOIs and SSRIs and with venlafaxine, trazodone and bupropion.


----------



## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> bupropion is not the only drug to purportedly do this -


Yah I was referring to the study itself. Granted only 1 other drug to compare to. But it wouldn't be too far fetched to say Prozac may speak for all SSRIs. To make such a generalized statement would be funny given there's hundreds of drugs out there, a lot which I don't even know anything about.


----------



## riptide991

Here's another good reason I'd like to try a super low dose of prozac. I think I'll ask my doc for 5mg.


> The GABA(A) receptor complex as a target for fluoxetine action.
> Tunnicliff G, Schindler NL, Crites GJ, Goldenberg R, Yochum A, Malatynska E.
> Source
> Department of Biochemistry, Indiana University School of Medicine, Evansville 47712, USA. [email protected]
> Abstract
> The clinically important antidepressant fluoxetine is established as a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. This study demonstrates that fluoxetine also interacts with the GABA(A) receptor complex. At concentrations above 10 microM fluoxetine inhibited the binding of both [3H]GABA (IC50 = 2 mM) and [3H]flunitrazepam (IC50 = 132 microM) to the GABA(A) receptor complex in brain cortical membranes. Low fluoxetine concentrations (1 nM) enhanced GABA-stimulated Cl- uptake by a rat cerebral cortical vesicular preparation. At higher concentrations (100 microM and 1 mM), however, fluoxetine inhibited GABA-stimulated Cl- uptake, an effect related to a reduction in Emax. These observations might assist in an explanation of the basis of the antidepressant action of fluoxetine.
> PMID: 10492522 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


----------



## riptide991

Wow it took 7 cups of coffee to recover from the Zombie Remeron state. Guess I'll stick to zopiclone for days when I run out of benadryl.

Long read on prozac and 5-ht2c.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC20038/



> Thus, the volume transmission effect of fluoxetine on the extra-junctional receptors may resemble its effect on oocytes exposed to low concentrations of 5HT, where 1 μM fluoxetine blocked almost completely the response to 5HT. Because of the highly nonlinear dose/response relationship of 5HT2C receptors the blockage of even a small number of receptors in a cell would lead to very profound changes, not only in its responses to 5HT but also in those to other neurotransmitters which act on receptors linked to the same phosphatidylinositol receptor-channel coupling mechanism


You could probably go less than 5mg but I understand 10mg is the smallest pill they make so you have to cut it up quite a bit to go lower.


----------



## thundercats

What does the wellbutrin you take look like?
My version which contains bupropion hcl looks like a round tictac and has something written on it. I think it really sucks that you can't slip the capsules. I'd have much less anxiety if I could start with a really low dose and then see what happens but directly starting with 150mg is scary.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> What does the wellbutrin you take look like?
> My version which contains bupropion hcl looks like a round tictac and has something written on it. I think it really sucks that you can't slip the capsules. I'd have much less anxiety if I could start with a really low dose and then see what happens but directly starting with 150mg is scary.












I already told you that slow release is going to give you less problems than instant release. Ugh.


----------



## thundercats

My ones look the same but they have different stuff written on them. 

I'd still feel much better if there was a smaller starting dose. Is 150mg the lowest dose? Why don't they make them with less content?


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## riptide991

That's because mine is brand name yours is generic. They don't have generic in Canada.

Anyways, yes 150mg is the lowest. You truly should try therapy, you are not someone who should be on drugs. Even if they put corn starch in your pill you would still get anxiety. It's all in your head, no drug will ever get a fair chance because of your mentality.


----------



## thundercats

My one's from Glaxosmith Kline it's not generic. I want the real ****. 

Also what's a therapist supposed to tell me? Something like "Dude, don't worry so much"? lol. Therapy is a joke. I tried it and it was ridiculous. I really asked myself what people study psychology for when in the end all they offer are some trivial advice.


----------



## riptide991

Well brand name says "WXL 150" or "Wellbutrin 150". Older pills usually say the full thing the newer ones are WXL, save costs I guess hehe.

And you can do different types of therapy not just talk. Your issue is clearly in your head judging by the amount of freaking out you do about the tiniest med. How can you possibly be helped through drugs? You ever read a study where people get side effects even though they were given sugar pills, you know the placebo effect? Well you will always get that affect no matter what you take because your mind is powerful enough to cause them. Most antidepressants cause an initial anxiety, even SSRIs.


----------



## thundercats

When I start with a new drug I am always scared but later when nothing bad happens I'm not scared anymore. I am not scared the whole time while being on something.

As for therapy. Psychotherapy does not have answers. There are fears which you cannot reason away. It's arrogant to think that a therapist has the answers to fear. The root of fear is death and nobody human has a solution for that.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> When I start with a new drug I am always scared but later when nothing bad happens I'm not scared anymore. I am not scared the whole time while being on something.
> 
> As for therapy. Psychotherapy does not have answers. There are fears which you cannot reason away. It's arrogant to think that a therapist has the answers to fear. The root of fear is death and nobody human has a solution for that.


Tell that to all the people who commit suicide. I don't fear death, am I abnormal?


----------



## GotAnxiety

[email protected] you could be paranoid from ssri withdrawal sydrome i think you should go back on a low dose ssri too see if it can help 20mg prozac 50mg zoloft or 5mg lexapro thats my 2 cent. And if that doesn't help add 2.5mg zyprexa at bed time. Alittle off topic but o well.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Yesterday was a great day i took a chick out to diner we went for pho "vietnamese food" and we had a good time talking i think we hit it off pretty well she like exercising i like exercising... Then later on i went to the gym Day 13 i slept 5.5 hours blah so i got up and went to the gym hung out at mall for acouple hours then i went too my docters apointment and too my surprise my docter was replaced with an intern that i actually talk to for 40 mins she even actually checked my bp something my regular docter never does and too my surprises my bp was 160/100 i think i better lay off those energy drinks! Im gonna follow up in a week or 2 to get rechecked and possibly change medication again maybe i can add remeron or buspar or even get something like viagra for a bloodpressure medication that would be cool. But she scipted me 10 atvian i coulda got seroquel or zopiclone but those are kinda gay i hope i see her again. They never raised my wellbutrin dosed but scipted me adderall xr as well.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety, wow! haha

I eat so healthy that no matter what my BP is always optimal. It's like I'm a robot or something. But yah I think cipralex made my BP go down pretty low, which explains the fatigue. That was the only time I had bad BP.

*Dary 44?* I think: I stopped keeping track. Today was awesome because I had to take care of a few things that would normally give me anxiety.

First one I had to call to activate my new credit card. Usually while on hold I'd be anticipating everything I would say but this time didn't. Guy tried to push the balance protect on me pretty strongly. And usually I'm very timid and keep making excuses as to why I don't want it, so I ended up saying "Listen, I know that it's your job to try to get this protection on our cards no matter what, but I am decided, my final answer is no, respect that please.". And we both went on our way.

Second one I basically had to call my ISP to get rid of my bandwidth insurance because I don't anticipate much downloading for a while until Steam has their winter sale so no point paying 10 bucks extra. Once again didn't anticipate anything that I would say, I was basically straining lentils in the kitchen and as soon as I heard them I kept straining and telling him what I want. I even asked some questions about the online interface and such. This is something I normally wouldn't do as I just want to get off the phone as soon as possible. I actually felt good after both calls.

So now I'm gonna eat and then hit the gym strong and hard.


----------



## thundercats

I wonder what do you do if wellbutrin raises BP too high? In the leaflet it also said something about wellbutrin interacting with betablockers. This is kinda stupid cause then you can't even take a betablocker to prevent a BP crisis.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I wonder what do you do if wellbutrin raises BP too high? In the leaflet it also said something about wellbutrin interacting with betablockers. This is kinda stupid cause then you can't even take a betablocker to prevent a BP crisis.


I'm no doctor but I would believe that you stop taking something that raises your blood pressure. See to me it doesn't matter I have a blood pressure machine and it's always perfect with Wellbutrin. Now, when I was taking cipralex/lexapro my BP lowered significantly, so what did I do? Stop taking it! Whoa, crazy concept.


----------



## thundercats

But what if your BP is so high that you need to intervene right away and can't simply stop taking it? What if it's like 200/140 or something and your head feels like it's about to explode?


----------



## basuraeuropea

thundercats said:


> But what if your BP is so high that you need to intervene right away and can't simply stop taking it? What if it's like 200/140 or something and your head feels like it's about to explode?


seriously...?


----------



## thundercats

In my leaflet it mentions potentially dangerous rise on BP. Sounds like it could be potentially dangerous.


----------



## basuraeuropea

thundercats is the new ourwater.


----------



## thundercats

basuraeuropea said:


> thundercats is the new ourwater.


Who is this? Is he also taking wellbutrin? I'd like to get in touch with wellbutrin people. I'm even thinking about starting my own wellbutrin forum so that I can discuss the risks of wellbutrin with others. I have really huge plans. Imagine it like facebook only 10 times cooler and it's all about wellbutrin.


----------



## riptide991

basuraeuropea said:


> thundercats is the new ourwater.


King of trolls no doubt. I think he could have maintained his innocence but he went a little overboard recently.


----------



## thundercats

I'm no troll. I just feel provoked and then I bite back. Or maybe this is the result of the testosterone gel. In this case it's the gel and not me. I must say I feel a little aggressive today. :mum


----------



## Inshallah

thundercats said:


> Who is this? Is he also taking wellbutrin? I'd like to get in touch with wellbutrin people. I'm even thinking about starting my own wellbutrin forum so that I can discuss the risks of wellbutrin with others. I have really huge plans. Imagine it like facebook only 10 times cooler and it's all about wellbutrin.


Couldn't you have been this funny from the beginning? Then at least we would have had our laughs


----------



## GotAnxiety

Day 14 i took 1mg ativan last night and mixed it with suntheaine malatonin and jiagulan tea i ended up sleeping a solid 8 hours stayed awake for abit then slept another 4 woke up i was bored and had nothing to do so i celebrated my good health i went too the bar to spend my last 20 bucks i ended up winning 80 on the vlt so i sat around there drinking beers eatting wings i bet another 20 and i lost **** i need a job lol 10 drinks and 36 wings later i got my mom too pick me up. Think i may try increasing my antidepressant dose for abit or droping it all together and try straight wellbutrin for awhie. Ive been spending my money like crazy lately.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety, becareful man. The thing about the Wellbutrin seizures is that they can hit you out of nowhere. I heard of people getting them after 3 years of use. So yah the alcohol is definitely not going to help it. Plus man you sound like you really need to lay off it, you're a heavy drinker.


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> GotAnxiety, becareful man. The thing about the Wellbutrin seizures is that they can hit you out of nowhere. I heard of people getting them after 3 years of use.


WHAT!?!?!? :afr

I thought if you're not getting seizures right away this means you're safe.
Were those people drinking when they got them? Now I'm scared again. Great. Couldn't you have kept this to yourself!? :mum


----------



## Mish

Calm down, seizures aren't that bad. Unless you have a neurological problem, chances are they will be mild and something you can deal with if its from the medication. In addition, you probably won't be foaming from the mouth as you might see in epilepsy, ssri have seizure chances too some higher then wellbutrin, they put labels there will all possible side effect so they can't be taken to court if something goes wrong, doesn't mean even half of them with occur.


----------



## GotAnxiety

kehcorpz said:


> GotAnxiety, becareful man. The thing about the Wellbutrin seizures is that they can hit you out of nowhere. I heard of people getting them after 3 years of use. So yah the alcohol is definitely not going to help it. Plus man you sound like you really need to lay off it, you're a heavy drinker.


Ya im gonna lay off the sauce for abit i think. How do you even tell if you had a seizures?


----------



## thundercats

I thought if you get a serizure you're rolling around on the floor like in the exorcist. :blank


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Ya im gonna lay off the sauce for abit i think. How do you even tell if you had a seizures?


When it's mild sometimes you can't even tell. You can be confused, dizzy or just have a severe mood change. When it's severe it's when you can get hurt hehe.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Hell i might of had one or 2 of them already maybe more my friend saw me in my bed dazed n confused with my eyes open he woke me up then i turned my light off and i went too bed i think i was so tired from all that insomina i crashed hard i think it coulda been a seizure that was a day after drinking i was pretty hyped up that day.


----------



## thundercats

What you do sounds dangerous and immature. Take better care of yourself.


----------



## GotAnxiety

kehcorpz how's it going men since you drop the zoloft?

Day 14-16 nothing much has change sleep improved big time since taking 1 mg of ativan at 6pm in the evening i've been getting 8 to 10 hr's of sleep.i've decided too increase cipralex to 10mg for abit to see how it goes im hoping it will lower my blood pressure. Seem's like my sex drive decreased abit after the initation period of wellbutrin or maybe it because my blood pressure increased. Anywhoo will give this a shot. Wellbutrin still at 150mg. if this fail's too lower it maybe i'll try and drop cipralex for abit and try straight wellbutrin for awhile in about a week's time im going back too my docter too discuss bloodpressure medication and decide on a sleep medication i hope that intern chick is still there. 

Overall i feel great mood's amazing i feel fearless almost seem's like any kind of stimulate medication i take increases my bp adderall and dexedrine was all giving me the same reading maybe cipralex by it self will lower it that will be a last resort.i check my weight im about 200-210lb's but i look skinny.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> kehcorpz how's it going men since you drop the zoloft?
> 
> Day 14-16 nothing much has change sleep improved big time since taking 1 mg of ativan at 6pm in the evening i've been getting 8 to 10 hr's of sleep.i've decided too increase cipralex to 10mg for abit to see how it goes im hoping it will lower my blood pressure. Seem's like my sex drive decreased abit after the initation period of wellbutrin or maybe it because my blood pressure increased. Anywhoo will give this a shot. Wellbutrin still at 150mg. if this fail's too lower it maybe i'll try and drop cipralex for abit and try straight wellbutrin for awhile in about a week's time im going back too my docter too discuss bloodpressure medication and decide on a sleep medication i hope that intern chick is still there.
> 
> Overall i feel great mood's amazing i feel fearless almost seem's like any kind of stimulate medication i take increases my bp adderall and dexedrine was all giving me the same reading maybe cipralex by it self will lower it that will be a last resort.i check my weight im about 200-210lb's but i look skinny.


Well it's only been 5 days since I was off. I've been trying to get off zopiclone as well which has been the toughest part. I stopped taking it and only take benadryl now. Last night I fell asleep at like 3am probably. Although I can sleep in during the day so I still get my 8 hours or more. I'll wake up at 6am pop my wellbutrin and then go back to sleep. It's weird but I seem to sleep better after taking the wellbutrin. Although I'm not going to change timing until I've stabilized. I found liquid benadryl made me really tired but the caplets almost give me energy. It's also possible that now that i'm starting to get rid of the anhedonia i'm more excited about doing things until the late hours. I mean I was playing some game and really into it till about 1:30am. And I had to force myself to go to bed hah. And then in the morning it takes quite a bit of coffee to get me going. That's why once everything stabilizes i'll consider wellbutrin at night. At least try it for a few days to see if it works for me. I'll catch up on my journal here it's just I'm always doing other stuff now so I don't come on here too much. I'll check in once in a while.


----------



## Panic Induced Panda

kehcorpz said:


> I'll wake up at 6am pop my wellbutrin and then go back to sleep. It's weird but I seem to sleep better after taking the wellbutrin.


Kehcorpz,

I noticed that too the first time I took Wellbutrin. I was on 150mg SR (twice a day) so I would take my first pill at 6am and go back to bed. I found that it subtly changed my sleep habits though. I wasn't able to sleep in -- it was like I automatically woke up at 8am and was wide awake. Then at night, I would get really drowsy around 1am and have to go to sleep, which is unusual for me. Being an insomniac, I have to force myself to sleep most nights.

-----------------------------------------------------

Day 2: Not really noticing any change in mental state -- my anhedonia has been as pronounced as before. I am still feeling dehydrated at times. Water doesn't seem to help. Just a feeling that passes. Appetite is normal. Sleep was not great. Woke up about every 2 hours, but the upon waking, the sleep seems restorative.


----------



## riptide991

Panic Induced Panda said:


> Kehcorpz,
> 
> I noticed that too the first time I took Wellbutrin. I was on 150mg SR (twice a day) so I would take my first pill at 6am and go back to bed. I found that it subtly changed my sleep habits though. I wasn't able to sleep in -- it was like I automatically woke up at 8am and was wide awake. Then at night, I would get really drowsy around 1am and have to go to sleep, which is unusual for me. Being an insomniac, I have to force myself to sleep most nights.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> Day 2: Not really noticing any change in mental state -- my anhedonia has been as pronounced as before. I am still feeling dehydrated at times. Water doesn't seem to help. Just a feeling that passes. Appetite is normal. Sleep was not great. Woke up about every 2 hours, but the upon waking, the sleep seems restorative.


That's good to hear.

Speaking of dehydration. I did notice I was peeing like crazy at first. I also lost a lot of water weight and just looked way more toned. That urination went away eventually. I have kept the water weight off too. Maybe I was just storing extra water for whatever reason.


----------



## thundercats

I'm on day 2 and I feel absolutely nothing!
I am disappointed and already starting to worry that wellbutrin also might not have an affect upon me at all. What if I'm simply immune to all these antidepressants?


----------



## riptide991

Feeling kind of crappy today. I took the pill before bed last night, and while I slept like a champ, I haven't been in the best of moods this morning. It's possible weather is affecting it as it went from being super warm yesterday to rainy and cold today. I probably shouldn't have changed the time I take the drug but it helps me sleep so I don't have to become dependent on Zopiclone.


----------



## thundercats

Isnt it weird that it helps you sleep? Shouldnt this stuff be stimulating?


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> Isnt it weird that it helps you sleep? Shouldnt this stuff be stimulating?


Yah but it's XL, so makes no difference as I will have just as much drug in my system when I go to bed once it's steady state whether I take it in the morning or late.


----------



## thundercats

But it the blood level is constant then it also shouldn't make a difference if you take it in the morning or evening. :blank


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> But it the blood level is constant then it also shouldn't make a difference if you take it in the morning or evening. :blank


Good point, I should say I'm partly wrong in that I keep forgetting about its other metabolites, so I didn't really write that comment with this in mind. Bupropion is the main one but there's 6 others that your liver metabolizes the drug into. Hydroxybupropion is probably the one that is the most constant in your blood due to its high conversion rate and half life. I would imagine that the reason I get sleepy on it could be any of the other metabolites, even bupropion. Oddly enough I posted a study recently where bupropion is implicated in quicker REM latency and longer REM duration. So possibly while higher levels are in the blood it could be helping me that way.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Day 17-18 i guess im a little emotional since increasing my antidepressant dose a bit i did sleep quite a bit yesterday despite not taking ativan which is weird i thought it would produce some type of rebound since i took it like 3-4 day's in a row i've been bummed out cause my libido went down some probably from too much partying or from taking those sleep aid's i think my blood pressure returned too somewhat normal. 

Seem's like whenever i drink alcohol it stimulates me and make me hyperactive and stimulants seem too calm me down somewhat so i need too stay away from alcohol


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Good point, I should say I'm partly wrong in that I keep forgetting about its other metabolites, so I didn't really write that comment with this in mind. Bupropion is the main one but there's 6 others that your liver metabolizes the drug into. Hydroxybupropion is probably the one that is the most constant in your blood due to its high conversion rate and half life. I would imagine that the reason I get sleepy on it could be any of the other metabolites, even bupropion. Oddly enough I posted a study recently where bupropion is implicated in quicker REM latency and longer REM duration. So possibly while higher levels are in the blood it could be helping me that way.


Yes maybe that's the explanation. I can't say that it makes me tired. I also can't say that it stimulates me. I really had expected this stuff to have a faster effect.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> Yes maybe that's the explanation. I can't say that it makes me tired. I also can't say that it stimulates me. I really had expected this stuff to have a faster effect.


Hah no way man, 2 days? Look at my entire thread I'm just starting to notice things and i'm halfway through month 2 on 300mg, and I already did 1 full month of 150mg. This drug has the lowest affinity of any drug out there. So the anxiety probably occurs through its function on nicotinic receptors or maybe even increase in DHEAS. And hey, this can help your testosterone by increasing DHEAS. Best part is Dheas will only ever convert back to DHEA when needed. Unless of course it's insanely high.


----------



## thundercats

If it takes that long to work then this sucks I mean I needed to find something which works asap.

And is it a fact that it raises dhea? But dhea can also convert into estrogen if i remember correctly.

I have had really high dhea levels a few times, other times they were rather low i think it was due to stress that they went up.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> If it takes that long to work then this sucks I mean I needed to find something which works asap.
> 
> And is it a fact that it raises dhea? But dhea can also convert into estrogen if i remember correctly.
> 
> I have had really high dhea levels a few times, other times they were rather low i think it was due to stress that they went up.


The only drug that will work in 2 days is going to be Cocaine or MDMA, or some other releasing agent.


----------



## riptide991

kehcorpz said:


> Feeling kind of crappy today. I took the pill before bed last night, and while I slept like a champ, I haven't been in the best of moods this morning. It's possible weather is affecting it as it went from being super warm yesterday to rainy and cold today. I probably shouldn't have changed the time I take the drug but it helps me sleep so I don't have to become dependent on Zopiclone.


Oddly at around 5pm-6pm I started feeling really good. A little too good if you ask me. I'm definitely not used to the way I felt, maybe when I was a kid and got my Nintendo for Xmas. I only know cuz my uncle has it on vid and I'm going freaking nuts over the nintendo.

Anyways, What really makes me think I may be bordering on Mania is that I only slept 3 hours but I don't even feel tired at all. Ahh well we shall see what happens today.

Oh and I should mention I'm hornier than Jesus when Home Depot is having a 2by4 sale.


----------



## thundercats

This sounds a little scary. What if you're going bipolar?

I also read the wellbutrin leaflet again and now I'm scared again.
It seems like in rare cases it can cause psychosis! This is some pretty
serious stuff. What if you develop a psychosis from wellbutrin? What do
you do then?!

I also wonder can those rare side effects happen at any time or usually directly in the beginning?

I also feel a little strange today. I feel kinda jittery or weak it's like my forearms feel weak and this makes me aggressive. I have no problem typing on the computer but when i write with a pencil I feel as if I have less control over my hand. This isn't really good.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> This sounds a little scary. What if you're going bipolar?
> 
> I also read the wellbutrin leaflet again and now I'm scared again.
> It seems like in rare cases it can cause psychosis! This is some pretty
> serious stuff. What if you develop a psychosis from wellbutrin? What do
> you do then?!
> 
> I also wonder can those rare side effects happen at any time or usually directly in the beginning?
> 
> I also feel a little strange today. I feel kinda jittery or weak it's like my forearms feel weak and this makes me aggressive. I have no problem typing on the computer but when i write with a pencil I feel as if I have less control over my hand. This isn't really good.


Weak forearms? You have a case of the over masturbation illness.

I'm not worried about psychosis. I just don't see it happening with something as mild as wellbutrin, given how low the affinity for receptors are. You'd have to have some heavy dopamine D3 receptor occupancy to do that.

Ahh and to answer your question about DHEAS earlier. Basically what they found is it increased it in kids with autism that already had low DHEAS and brought them to normal levels. I really don't know how it would affect people who already have normal levels, but as long as you're within normal range you shouldn't worry about estrogen.


----------



## thundercats

I'm serious. I have the same weak forearm sensation when I'm sleep deprived or under lots of stress. Wellbutrin most likely makes the reaction of the body to stress stronger compared to other antidepressants which are more sedating.
I also read about wellbutrin and memory loss. That's also concerning. I really don't know if going on all these antidepressants isn't totally useless. What if none of them works and they only cause more problems?


----------



## riptide991

Well my memory has improved on wellbutrin, so that must be a really rare effect.

Anyways you may feel jittery the first week or 2. That will go away. I felt jittery first week so had to limit my coffee.


----------



## riptide991

Don't forget to worry about the side effect of Priapism that can happen with Wellbutrin. That's basically a constant erection that you can't get down.


----------



## thundercats

Yes, maybe. I also drink a lot of coffee. This is a bad habit just like the evening alcohol. I used to be a huge green tea drinker but then I heard about the fluoride and stopped it. I miss the green tea. I tried other teas but they aren't like green tea.

Anyway, I just worry that this stuff also might not work. I don't know what I'll do then. I also read that women have more success with wellbutrin than men. These results here are also not very encouraging.

http://www.ehealthme.com/cd/stress+and+anxiety/wellbutrin

Seems like only very few really feel better on wellbutrin. I wonder if it's even responsible to take a drug which can have serious side effects and at the same time chances are that it might not work at all. To me this sounds like a pretty bad deal.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> Yes, maybe. I also drink a lot of coffee. This is a bad habit just like the evening alcohol. I used to be a huge green tea drinker but then I heard about the fluoride and stopped it. I miss the green tea. I tried other teas but they aren't like green tea.
> 
> Anyway, I just worry that this stuff also might not work. I don't know what I'll do then. I also read that women have more success with wellbutrin than men. These results here are also not very encouraging.
> 
> http://www.ehealthme.com/cd/stress+and+anxiety/wellbutrin
> 
> Seems like only very few really feel better on wellbutrin. I wonder if it's even responsible to take a drug which can have serious side effects and at the same time chances are that it might not work at all. To me this sounds like a pretty bad deal.


Don't make assumptions based on websites. It's actually considered one of the best drugs from the first class ones. I mean hell Dr. Drew endorsed it even though he was paid but he still stands by it as his patients have good results. My doctor even says the best results come from wellbutrin for his patients. Just stop reading this stuff, the internet is full of complainers or misinformation. I mean the risk of seizures at 450mg/day is 0.4% That means you are 99.6% unlikely to get one. Below 450mg/day it falls to like 0.1%.


----------



## riptide991

I was having a great day. But then I had to help the rents fix the furnace and I slammed my head on a valve because I'm so damn tall. So I probably bled out most of the drug in my system. I didn't go to the emergency room but I do have a pretty big gash on my head I put cayenne pepper on it to stop it from bleeding cuz there was a puddle of blood. Now it's just burning but at least the blood stopped. Still feeling decent though hehe. And that's on 3 hours of sleep.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Day 19-20 i got called lame last night from my friend's mom and him for turning down the opportunity too drink i dont like the fact that im on 10mg of cipralex i do feel unmannly on it at the momment i hope this passes i do feel that my intelligence has increased in some aspect but im lacking love for one another and it makes me feel alone im gonna give this a shot for acouple weeks then hopefully bump wellbutrin up too 300mg. I've been going too gym everyday today i did fasted morning cardio on the elipical for an hour then after i waited 2 hours too eat i had a feast i ate 8 slices of peanut butter toast 3 scoop of allmax whey protein isolate and 1 litre of milk i hope this satifises me i cant stand eatting small for breaking fast then ill just get hungry after. probably not the healthiest but damn do i fill full .


----------



## riptide991

kehcorpz said:


> I was having a great day. But then I had to help the rents fix the furnace and I slammed my head on a valve because I'm so damn tall. So I probably bled out most of the drug in my system. I didn't go to the emergency room but I do have a pretty big gash on my head I put cayenne pepper on it to stop it from bleeding cuz there was a puddle of blood. Now it's just burning but at least the blood stopped. Still feeling decent though hehe. And that's on 3 hours of sleep.


Ugh I think I got a concussion I am soo sick right now. Never felt this nauseous before. Ugh apparently it can last a long time.


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Don't make assumptions based on websites. It's actually considered one of the best drugs from the first class ones. I mean hell Dr. Drew endorsed it even though he was paid but he still stands by it as his patients have good results. My doctor even says the best results come from wellbutrin for his patients. Just stop reading this stuff, the internet is full of complainers or misinformation. I mean the risk of seizures at 450mg/day is 0.4% That means you are 99.6% unlikely to get one. Below 450mg/day it falls to like 0.1%.


I hope you're right. But then again, what if wellbutrin or antidepressants in general only work for endogenous depression? My depression is endogenous but also exogenous. I don't see how a pill could make me non-depressed when everything just feels hopeless.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I hope you're right. But then again, what if wellbutrin or antidepressants in general only work for endogenous depression? My depression is endogenous but also exogenous. I don't see how a pill could make me non-depressed when everything just feels hopeless.


Yah but these psychoactive drugs can give you a different outlook on life. I know that changed for me big time from when I was depressed. You honestly will see things differently when a drug works.

HAPPY!


----------



## thundercats

lol @ pic

I don't know. I really can't see how I could possibly ever be happy again. Maybe less depressed but happy? No way. Too much has happened since the time where I used to be happy and even back then I was constantly afraid of losing it and of something terrible happening. I'm just tired of this ****.


----------



## GotAnxiety

There i made acouple possible stacks that might work good Wellbutrin xl and Adderall xr. Wellbutrin xl Cipralex 5mg Dexedrine cr . I tried this one but it was to much Wellbutrin 150mg xl Cipralex 10mg Adderall 12.5mg 7.5mg dexedrine and also had 2 energy drinks i started getting chest pain and took 5mg of ativan Id say this combination isnt safe. Totally took away all actitivy and i been laying in my bed the last 12 hours great for restlessness. I say this could potentially kill you if you weren't trirated and taper unto these drugs properly cause you could get serotonin sydrome or extreme akathisia burning hell fire pains .


----------



## GotAnxiety

Nice picture kehcorpz you look like a movie star now  Day 23 slept alright 9 or so hours thanks to the ativan woke up took 5mg dexdrine with wellbutrin and cipralex it seems like they can go together alright i feel pretty calm able to sit still. using adderall last night seemed to produce chest pains. ive check my bp it was rocking around 150 over 100/105 today. Day 6 on 10mg cipralex i kinda wanna drop it or reduce the dose but ill give it another week cipralex can cause chest pains and irregular heart beat i remember specially when mix with other drugs usually it get rough befor you get better when you increase the dose i hope the weakness goes away and i better not night get night sweats i hate those. I still need too discuss blood pressure meds pretty soon here im gonna try and talk them into cialis or viagra i hope that intern chickworking there when i do


----------



## GotAnxiety

Thinking ill jack my wellbutrin up too 300mg soon. today the last day im taking dexedrine that stuff makes me too lazy all i wanna do is lay in my bed and do nothing hell it would be nice if there was a lady too snuggle up next to keep warm or somethin then we can just lay here for hours... They might as well use marijaunia then that stuff both make ya pretty lazy and the other might even lower your bloodpressure.


----------



## Mish

I've been on Wellbutrin for nearly 30 days now, at 150mg on a SR generic version. I have not noticed any changes to be frank. Maybe a little in terms of waking up in the morning i can do it much easier now, and sleep better. But i can't notice much in the social department. I will continue it for a while though, maybe go up to 300mg soon. I also started 50mg of Zoloft its the first 7 days already, and again nothing. First time using both medicines, im concerned i might have some sort of resistance or something because i haven't even noticed side effects or anything lol. 

Any input @kehcorpz? I have the same anhedonia and lack of interest as you do, it is why i ask you a lot of questions since you have the most similar issues. )


----------



## GotAnxiety

Damn taking those amphetimines makes me wanna smoke and drink my bp was rocking 160 over 110. im really thinking of dropping this SSRI and Amphetimines dont agree well with each other and im sick of my emotion being blunted. I might go get a 6 pack of beer and a pack of smokes too make me feel better i havn't smoked in like 2 weeks.


----------



## riptide991

Mish said:


> Any input @kehcorpz? I have the same anhedonia and lack of interest as you do, it is why i ask you a lot of questions since you have the most similar issues. )


As far as Wellbutrin goes you won't see much of anything until 300mg. In fact that's the therapeutic dose and GSK recommends you start at 150mg for 2 weeks to make sure you can tolerate the drug and then move up to 300. But of course doctors want to see if you respond to the bare minimum so they will keep you on it longer.

As far as Zoloft goes I was up to 200mg and after quitting it all together and staying on Wellbutrin I haven't really noticed any difference, if anything my anxiety seems lower, but that could just be the result of being on wellbutrin long enough.

I'm going to add the Prozac next visit. I hope to get a 10mg tablet so I can cut it in half and use 5mg for a while.


----------



## thundercats

What kind of side effects can you expect when you go from 150 to 300?
In my leaflet it sounds like the normal dose is 150. I'm not keen on going to high. Who knows what happens then.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> What kind of side effects can you expect when you go from 150 to 300?
> In my leaflet it sounds like the normal dose is 150. I'm not keen on going to high. Who knows what happens then.


http://www.pdr.net/drugpages/concisemonograph.aspx?concise=2118



> ADULT DOSAGE
> Adults: Give in AM. MDD: Initial: 150mg qd. May increase to 300mg qd on Day 4. There should be an interval of ≥24 hrs between successive doses. *Usual: 300mg* qd. Max: 450mg


I didn't really see an increase in side effects other than crazy high sex drive and more energy.


----------



## thundercats

Then my doc will prolly tell me to increase to 300 when I see him in a few weeks. And then it'll take another few weeks until I can even tell if it works at all. This simply sucks. This way you lose so much time. Every new drug costs more than 2 months before you can even tell if it works. That's not good.


----------



## wizeguy

Alright everyone, 

Tomorrow will be my first day adding the wellbutrin xl 150mg to my cipralex 15mg to counter the sexual side effects of cipralex. I will post the results, maybe not like you kehcorp but will do so now and then or who knows maybe everyday. If you don't hear from me after a while, it will probably mean that the wellbutrin xl works and that I'm busy with the chikitas. 8)

So thanks kehcorp for starting this thread as I'm pretty sure a lot of people are and will benefit from it.


----------



## riptide991

Yah last few days the wellbutrin has really been kicking in. I now realize I have to go back to taking it in the days as I can't sleep. I'm on 4 hours of sleep from last night and I'm wide awake. I'm also constantly horny. It's insane! I need to buy some bulk tissues from costco haha.

Today I'll take it closer to mid day and each day I will take it a bit earlier until I'm back on days. It just isn't making me tired anymore.


----------



## wizeguy

Hey there kehcorpz,

How long did it take for you to see the sex drive increase?


----------



## thundercats

Just a thought, but what if jacking off excessively harm the neurotransmitters or reduces them or something along those lines? I remember I've once been to a website of a crazy chinese doctor who wrote stuff like masturbation causes eye floaters and also lead to burnout. He only has sex without ejaculation and acted like when you ejaculate you lose energy. I know this sounds crazy but what if there is something to it? 
If wellbutrin makes you horny then this proves that there is a connection between dopamine, nor-adrenaline and being horny. Then it could as well be that frequently jacking off reduces those neurotransmitters.
But how could this be tested? How can you even measure neurotransmitter concentrations in the brain? Would have you to put someone in a PET scanner and then have him jack off a dozen times and see how his images change?


----------



## riptide991

Well orgasm does increase prolactin which reduces dopamine. But if you're taking a NDRI I doubt it would have a profound effect hehe.


----------



## thundercats

Usually I jack off when depressed or stressed out. Does this mean that dopamine is the reason for wanting to jack off in those situation? 
This sounds like dopamine is actually bad making me want to jack off and do destructive things. :blank


----------



## riptide991

Well jacking off increases dopamine and when you orgasm it gets lowered. But can't tell you that for sure as arousal is a pretty complex mechanism involving many hormones/neurotransmitters.


----------



## thundercats

This would mean you could just quit the wellbutrin and instead jack off a couple of times daily without ejaculating and this way boost your dopamine.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> This would mean you could just quit the wellbutrin and instead jack off a couple of times daily without ejaculating and this way boost your dopamine.


Not necessarily, not orgasming may cause stress and frustration which could raise cortisol or have other implications.


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Not necessarily, not orgasming may cause stress and frustration which could raise cortisol or have other implications.


Damn, this **** is so complicated. And I already thought I had found the holy grail. 
For me masturbating is also kinda frustrating though. Cant say it's fun. Those times where I actually felt something in my penoid are long gone. :blank


----------



## riptide991

Just follow the rules of moderation. I'm going to do so, starting tomorrow since it's too late today =\


----------



## riptide991

I decided to buy a multivitamin because I know that I don't really get any iodine in my diet. In fact, my iodine intake has been below the RDA for a while when i think about the foods I eat (I don't touch table salt at all). There was a point where I ate a tonne of plain yogurt with my buckwheat, and yogurt has a good amount but I stopped that due to how expensive it was. So Costco has their multivitamin brand selling for 12 bucks and you get 365 pills! That lasts the whole year. It has 150mcg of iodine which gets me the RDA equivalent. But given how long I have been with lower iodine levels I decided I'm also going to add table salt to all my meals for additional iodine. Maybe up my cheese intake, though it doesn't have that much.

The upper tolerance level seems pretty high if you look at Japanese diets.



> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3204293/
> 
> We estimate that the average Japanese iodine intake, largely from seaweed consumption--based on dietary records, food surveys, urine iodine analysis and seaweed iodine content--is 1,000-3,000 μg/day (1-3 mg/day). This estimate compares to a recent report claiming that the average iodine intake of the Japanese from kelp is around 1,200 μg/day (1.2 mg/day) [19]


So I won't really worry about getting too much as it would take quite a lot to get up to the level of a typical Japanese diet.


----------



## thundercats

I'd only buy vitamins from reputable companies. I think NOW and Jarrow are pretty good. But there's alos much debate about vitamins. Years ago they did this meta study and they concluded that vitamins are actually harmful. 
Vitamin E for example is supposed to raise mortality and only a few mg per day are allowed. Don't know the exact numbers but since then people worry about their fish oil containing too much vitamin E per pill giving them too much total E per day. 
Another issue with vitamins is this synthetic vitamins vs natural vitamins stuff. Once I heard about a study with ascorbic acid which showed that ascorbid acid causes dna damage. Not sure if this is true but in real foods you don't just find ascorbid acid but other co-factors but when you buy a multi it only contains ascorbic acid.


----------



## riptide991

Yah but a lot of these studies are also done in pietri dishes and not in vivo. I mean the vitamin C study was exactly that, and it showed it's a carcinogen. I typically only take a multi vitamin and that's about it. And multi vitamins usually have a dosage even below the RDA and assumes you get stuff from food as well. I'm sure only a bit of it gets absorbed anyways but I couldn't find any separate supplements for iodine. I didn't think about the salt thing until I found iodized sea salt as I'm not a fan of regular table salt. By then I had already bought the vitamins but whatever dirt cheap.


----------



## riptide991

Popping 15mg of Remeron for tonight. I need some catch up sleep. If it's like last time I'll get a good 14 hours hah.


----------



## thundercats

I also don't use regular salt. I use untreated salt which hasn't been tampered with. There's also this damn expensive himalayan salt but I wouldn't buy this stuff it's only for new agers. 
They even have salt which has extra fluoride. Yay!


----------



## riptide991

Nice.

Yah so today was a great day, lots of gaming, music, and reading heh.

I slept like a rock for a good 12 hours after taking remeron last night. Today I'm taking only benadryl so we shall see if I can sleep.


----------



## wizeguy

Day 3 on wellbutrin:

First 2 days of anxiety due to coffee i think, 3rd no coffee but still felt like crap/depressed/bad mood. Libido is still shot but I kind of experienced some of the libido yesterday afternoon. Might of been placebo effect, idk.


----------



## thundercats

This is day 8 or 9 at 150mg and I feel nothing. Today I was totally sad again, as almost always. Sad and worried. I don't think that any drug can cure this.


----------



## GotAnxiety

My twisted tail of event's that spiraled outta control i had too discontinue for now because of akathisia burning sensation i rather deal with the antidepressant withdraws then akathisia but i got laid in the process not something im proud of cause i didnt bust and it led to pure frustion its almost embrassing posting this but o well. im cutting out the ssri cause of it making me cold inside i feel like dracula on that stuff soulless and with a name like escitalopram go figure ill readd the wellbutrin when im stabilize my heart all messed up withdrawing off several drugs booze ciggerette etc. it was taking dex with the ssri that made me go crazy. i gotta take responability for my own actions hopeful i can redeem my self and improve my self.


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## GotAnxiety

Alright i went 2 day's without the drug's too give my body a break the only withdraws i experienced was sweating and sore throat that pretty good compared too effexor where you pretty much can lose your mind and get a permament increase in bloodpressure . For some reason masterbating seems to get rid of akathisia tempory and gravel can help with sleep. I've restarted cipralex but im only taking 2.5mg separated thur dilution in a water bottle and dumping out half i may futher reduce to 1.25mg will see how it goes.


----------



## riptide991

Hey if masturbation helps then do it in the name of health
hehe

I took 450mg of Wellbutrin today and yesterday and I like it a lot. I'm going to convince my doctor to give it to me. Though he seems to be too worried about seizures. So I'm going to basically have to convince him. I'll tell him that he should be more worried about me getting hit by lightning.


----------



## thundercats

I'd be scared to go so high. I also don't think that if for example 300mg don't work that 450mg would work.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I'd be scared to go so high. I also don't think that if for example 300mg don't work that 450mg would work.


From my experience with drugs, yes increasing the dosage could mean the difference.

Wellbutrin was originally meant to be taken at 600mg, but it raised the seizure threshold to unacceptable levels so they had to lower the dosage. Although that was instant release as well, so the chances are even lower with XL.


----------



## thundercats

That's great, this means that all the time while I'm taking my 150mg are basically wasted cause 150mg is so low that you cannot possibly expect any positive effects? 
I have to find something which works as fast as possible and can't afford to waste months on a drug only in order to find out if it works or not. :mum


----------



## riptide991

If your depression is a result of neuroapoptosis then it will take time no matter what. Anything that gives you instant results is simply masking the symptoms temporarily. You know you can take heroin and you will feel great right away. But drug companies goal is not to get you addicted but simply help you get out of the depression. 

Anyways ask your doc for 300mg. I've spent months finding the right drugs and Zoloft/Remeron was a blessing until it pooped out. Wellbutrin seems to be working but a lot slower as I notice very subtle changes slowly. With the Zoloft and Remeron it was like a light switch almost.


----------



## thundercats

But what if my depression has nothing to do with neurotransmitters at all?
From what I know this whole neurotransmitter oh you must have an imbalance when you're depressed stuff isn't proven but only a theory. What if being depressed is totally normal given my circumstances? Would in such a case no antidepressant have any effect?

What's also strange is that I asked my doc about remeron pooping out when I was still on it and he acted like he hasn't heard about this even though he's a professor and not just an ordinary psychiatrist. That confused me a bit. Was he just saying this in order to not worry me or did he really not know about this? :um


----------



## riptide991

Well, the antidepressants you take raise neurotransmitters but that's not what gets you out of depression. It's the fact that slowly your brain starts a process of neurogenesis where new brain cells are created within the hippocampal region among others. That's what gets you out of depression. See Zoloft/Remeron it was 8 weeks into it, I woke up and bam I was feeling amazing. It's possible cell generation occurs at intervals. Kind of like skin cells regenerate every 30 days or so. But the drugs that you take will all give you this neurogenesis eventually it's just you need the right dosage and you need to pick one that doesn't give you bad side effects. I would always work my way up to a drug's therapeutic dosage. It was chosen as the therapeutic dosage for a reason.

P.S read section 6 it talks about the poop out.

http://www.crazymeds.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Meds/Remeron

Doctors don't experience it so they can only go by their patients. It's possible they didn't have many patients who had that issue.


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Well, the antidepressants you take raise neurotransmitters but that's not what gets you out of depression. It's the fact that slowly your brain starts a process of neurogenesis where new brain cells are created within the hippocampal region among others. That's what gets you out of depression. See Zoloft/Remeron it was 8 weeks into it, I woke up and bam I was feeling amazing. It's possible cell generation occurs at intervals. Kind of like skin cells regenerate every 30 days or so. But the drugs that you take will all give you this neurogenesis eventually it's just you need the right dosage and you need to pick one that doesn't give you bad side effects.


That is a really interesting way to look at it, but where did you get this? Is this a fact or also a theory? I always thought that if it's all based on neurotransmitters then a drug should either work within a few weeks or it doesn't. I mean even in the leaflet it says that you should allow a few weeks for it to kick in. If you are right then this would basically mean that you could be taking an antidepressant for weeks, not feel anything and quit when you were right about to finally reap the effects of the antidepressant. But in this case you'd have to stay on an antidepressant even longer to make absolutely sure that it's not working.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> That is a really interesting way to look at it, but where did you get this? Is this a fact or also a theory? I always thought that if it's all based on neurotransmitters then a drug should either work within a few weeks or it doesn't. I mean even in the leaflet it says that you should allow a few weeks for it to kick in. If you are right then this would basically mean that you could be taking an antidepressant for weeks, not feel anything and quit when you were right about to finally reap the effects of the antidepressant. But in this case you'd have to stay on an antidepressant even longer to make absolutely sure that it's not working.


Well it's a theory. Researchers don't know why antidepressants work. If they worked based on neurotransmitters then it would work right away because the moment you take them your neurotransmitters go up. But what they found in research is this neurogenesis occurring as a result of this increase. But the neurotransmitters had to be increased for a certain amount of time before this occurred.


----------



## riptide991

Day A heck I don't even count anymore but I have 5 pills left so I'll say Day 55:

Feeling great. So great I started my strength/power lifting routine. There is nothing better than strength training. I am doing 8 sets of 3 reps with naturally a 3 rep max weight. It just makes you feel so powerful. I don't even know why I did the ***** hypertrophy workout not too long ago. I guess to mix things up. But yah back to strength where I get the best results and feel best.


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Well it's a theory. Researchers don't know why antidepressants work. If they worked based on neurotransmitters then it would work right away because the moment you take them your neurotransmitters go up. But what they found in research is this neurogenesis occurring as a result of this increase. But the neurotransmitters had to be increased for a certain amount of time before this occurred.


But if, as you said, all antidepressants cause neurogenesis then antidepressants should work for anyone if they're only taken long enough. But there are many people who say they took something for many months or years and it didn't help them.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> But if, as you said, all antidepressants cause neurogenesis then antidepressants should work for anyone if they're only taken long enough. But there are many people who say they took something for many months or years and it didn't help them.


Yah but you have to realize that everyone is different. You may have a liver that converts the drug to a less active metabolite. You may not get the same bioavailability as others due to different factors, etc. I mean if you ever look at an actual study they see people that get extremely low bioavailability and some extremely high. They usually take the average or mean. Too many factors in play, too complex to make guesses. Best thing is to just keep trying different drugs. There's also the point where you may already have normal serotonin levels so your brain may not even increase neurogenesis to the degree it needs, you may need dopamine or norepinephrine. It's possible that the brain has to achieve a balance of these neurotransmitters which it does with upregulation and downregulation. The point is that no one really knows, that's why this is a trial and error science. Drug companies are actually starting to give up on antidepressants because it costs too much to develop these drugs but a lot of times they fail, because well they don't know what really needs to be done to fix depression.


----------



## riptide991

So I think i'm still going to suggest my doctor give me prozac this Wednesday. I basically came across many other threads where people are using it in low dose to block 5-ht2c.

HEre's one in particular.

http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl?post=/babble/neuro/20091104/msgs/931609.html#931609

Basically I read on this site with people taking it 5mg/day 2.5mg/day and some doing 5mg every other day. I think I may do 2.5mg/day providing it's a tablet.


----------



## thundercats

I really wonder what psychiatrists actually think of antidepressants. Do they themselves also feel like they're mostly useless or that it trial and error? But I bet not many of them would admit that it's all wishy washy.

I read the first post on this site. Does this mean that prozac is as effective at low doses as it is at high doses or what's so great about taking prozac in low doses?


----------



## riptide991

Well as I stated in previous posts. Low dose prozac is a powerful antagonist of 5-ht2c and slightly less of 5-ht2a. It also enhances GABA stimulated CI uptake. Which is a good thing. Once you go to a higher doses it actually has the opposite effect on GABA and it overpowers the effect of the antagonistic action of the 5-ht2c receptors. So no it's not the same it's a different mechanism. Antagonism of 5-ht2c is a good way to increase Dopamine.


----------



## thundercats

This sounds good on paper. I wonder if I could also try this out. But I think that my doctor will probably want me to take increase to 300mg instead of adding something else. Actually I have fluoxetine at home cause my father once got a prescription for it but then didn't dare to take it. But I'm not going to take anything on my own.


----------



## riptide991

Day 56: So today was Squat day for my strength routine. Now this one I had to be very careful with as it can lead to some serious injuries. I haven't done Strength training in a good year or more. So I looked at my old logs and saw that I was doing 300lbs for Squats, and figured I'll drop it to about 240lbs and it should be fine. Well 240lbs was still too much and I barely survived at 220lbs. It was quite a painful workout and it felt like I was going to pull my Quads but I got through it. Luckily strength comes back quickly so going easy probably should have been the better route to take. Ahh well at least I still felt good throughout the entire ordeal. I didn't feel exhausted like I would normally feel for the last year dealing with this depression. I was the same on Zoloft/Remeron but I never did strength and it only lasted a few months before pooping out. So tomorrow is my doctor appointment and I will bang on 5mg prozac to it. I think he should be more open about this since last time I was discussing Abilify with him so going to prozac will make him happier. Either way after reading more about Abilify it seems that it would have been a bad choice anyways, at least from peoples experiences.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Today my first day taking 300mg. i've been sick lately withdrawing off of so many drug's i got the flu and feel weak but i've been sweating alot. my sweat tastes salty and i checked my blood pressure and it is in the optimal range i hope it stays this way. My blood pressure could be lowered from reducing my antidepressant dose maybe a possible interaction with Wellbutrin.

Slept good today about 9 hour's woke up for abit went for a walk got some juice came home slept another 3 hour's. Been going for lot's of walk's lately staying active.

I've got a question for ya all if an alpha blocker increases growth hormone wouldn't an NRI lower it because that is like the opposite?

Also here another interesting idea let's say someone was going thur Alcohol or Benzo withdraw's ie adrenaline storm and they were on an NRI or SNRI wouldn't that potentiate or block the reuptake of the storm. i guess you could call that Adrenaline or Norepinephrine Syndrome.

I had a similar scenario like that a couple year's ago that fried my brain and gave me a bit of fibromyalgia.

I've been thinking of asking the docter for a sleep aid im thinking Seroquel or Remeron. Seroquel has alpha blocker properties i dunno if this would be counter productive to the NRI or not maybe it can provide some extra growth hormone while sleeping once and awhile. Remeron and Seroquel both have way longer half-life's then Gravol so the later would be more perferable. Plus minus some of the side effect's that gravol is associated with.


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Day 56: So today was Squat day for my strength routine. Now this one I had to be very careful with as it can lead to some serious injuries. I haven't done Strength training in a good year or more. So I looked at my old logs and saw that I was doing 300lbs for Squats, and figured I'll drop it to about 240lbs and it should be fine. Well 240lbs was still too much and I barely survived at 220lbs. It was quite a painful workout and it felt like I was going to pull my Quads but I got through it.


----------



## riptide991

Ronnie is big but Victor Richards is the biggest/strongest bodybuilder ever, he just doesn't compete.

He's 360lbs at 5'10 haha


----------



## thundercats

He has a nice built but I think in a direct comparison Coleman would have been bigger. Richards looks like a more muscular version of Shawn Ray.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> He has a nice built but I think in a direct comparison Coleman would have been bigger. Richards looks like a more muscular version of Shawn Ray.


Nope Richards is the biggest bodybuilder thus far. The measurements don't lie. His chest is so big it looks like he has boobs.

Straight from bodybuilding.com This guy is known as the biggest guy in bodybuilding, he just never competed much. His competition weight is more than Ronnie Coleman's off-season weight and he is shorter too!

Name: Victor Richards
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA, USA 
Born: 1964
Height: 5'10"
Off Season Weight: 360 lbs
Competition Weight: 330 lbs
Arms: 26"
Waist: 36"
Thighs: 37"
Calves: 24"
Neck: 22 1/2"
Shoulder width: 43"
Chest: 67"




Name: Ronnie Coleman
Location: Texas
Born: May 13, 1964
Birthplace: Monroe, Louisiana
Height: 5'11"
Off-Season Weight: 315 Lbs.
Competition Weight: 300 Lbs.
Arms: 22"
Pro Qualifying Event: 1991 World Amateur Championships


----------



## thundercats

From what I read he wasn't a big fan of coming in shredded which also plays a role. We don't know what kind of bodyfat he had when those measurements were taken. It would have been interesting to see him and Coleman in a direct comparison in competition shape.


----------



## riptide991

Nah his competition weight he had shredded body fat. It's just he was never aesthetically pleasing because he was really huge. His chest looked so weird as a result. There's way bigger bodybuilders than Coleman but Coleman was the most aesthetically pleasing. Greg Kovacs is the only other bodybuilder that has 26 inch arms and is freaking huge. I met this guy at Gold's Gym here in Ontario. He's from Ontario.

*Full Name:* Gregory Kovacs

*Location:*

*Date of Birth:* 1968

*Height:* 6'3

*Off Season Weight:* 400 lbs.

*Competition Weight:* Around 337 lbs (2004 Arnold Classic).

*Arms:* 26"

*Chest:* 70"

*Quads:* 35"


----------



## thundercats

Yes Kovacs is a monster but he's one of those bodybuilders who look better offseason than on stage.

http://i3.tinypic.com/wkl5s4.jpg


----------



## riptide991

Well he's 6'3 and as such long muscle bellies will never allow him to look as big as shorter guys even though he's bigger. I remember one of my buddies who was really short he had smaller arms/legs and everything when measured in circumference but he still looked way bigger because I'm tall.


----------



## GotAnxiety

[email protected] Hey! you ever play fallout 3 new vegas ? What do you think of that? also if you played it what do you think of that compared to the boarderland series?


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> I've got a question for ya all if an alpha blocker increases growth hormone wouldn't an NRI lower it because that is like the opposite?


Umm all I know is that Wellbutrin doesn't touch Growth Hormone according to some studies I've seen.



GotAnxiety said:


> [email protected] Hey! you ever play fallout 3 new vegas ? What do you think of that? also if you played it what do you think of that compared to the boarderland series?


I have Fallout 3 New Vegas, I started it but haven't really gotten into it too much. Borderlands is a way better series for sure. I'm playing Alan Wake right now which is a pretty scary game but damn well done.


----------



## thundercats

Day 14 or so. I feel like **** today. I am so ****ing sick of everything.
I don't see how wellbutrin could possibly make a difference in my life when everything around me is depressing. 
I just watched something on TV about people who inspite of hardship are always optimistic. They asked if this is a genetical trait and they found out that it seems to have something to do with serotonine but what also played a role in mice is wether the mouse experienced love or stress. The mouse with the serotonine gene defect still acted normal when it received love. On the other hand when a mouse with the same defect did not experience love but stress then the serotonine stuff was turned on and the mouse behaved anxious and so on. This pissed me off so much. I most likely have a genetical predisposition to be negative and anxious and I'm also from a broken family. I don't know how much love I received as a child but I remember that already when I was 5 or 6 I already was afraid of germs and contamination and crap like that. 
That's just ****ing awesome. And this **** can't simply be reversed by popping a pill. I feel like I'm wrecked for life. I just hate everything. I think that people who are so messed up are messed up for life. I don't think that you can just go to a therapist or read a book about being optimistic and then you can just change everything. I think this is like carving something into a tree it also won't ever go away. This is so depressing.


----------



## riptide991

Thundercats sure it can. It happened to me. 

Anyways, 30 days of 150mg, it did nothing really for me. Now I'm on my 56th day of wellbutrin and only the last little bit have I really started feeling the effects. Get on the 300mg as 150mg is way too low.


----------



## thundercats

I don't know what kind of problems you have. I could imagine how antidepressants could help when you have endogenous depression but I also have exogenous depression. My health is ****ed up. This alone would be more than enough to be depressed. But there are so many other things which drag me down on a daily basis. My parents are also in bad shape and I have to watch this **** every day. It's simply too much. I can't deal with this ****. When I think about the future then I only see problems and I'm not imagining this. My situation really is pretty bad and serious.I really wish I could exchange all my problems for social anxiety. I don't have any friends anyway.


----------



## riptide991

Meh, I know a guy who's wife recently divorced him, his kid has leukemia and he's constantly in hospitals with him, his parents died and he's still a happy guy. External factors can drag you down but it's how you respond that's based on your genetics and brain.


----------



## thundercats

Then he's one of those persons who can experience all kinds of tragic **** and still be positive. But how does this help me? I am not like that. I am exactly like Hudson in Aliens. Do you think Hudson decided to be the way he is? I don't think so. When things got tough he simply couldn't deal with it. Hicks on the other hand stayed cool. I wish I was like Hicks but I'm not. I simply am not like that. I really hate the way I am. I despise myself a lot of the time thinking about how much I suck. I'm exactly what I don't want to be. I don't even respect myself.


----------



## riptide991

You are not like that because years of stress have caused neuroapoptosis. The drugs will help bring you back to normal levels and if you continue taking them help you handle future scenarios. Just keep getting treatment you will see one day it will just change. I know when I was depressed I found it tough to believe that I could ever be not depressed, because it just didn't make sense to me. Tell that to the millions of people who have responded to medication. They will all tell you the same thing. Read some of the stories online of drugs being lifesavers for people.


----------



## thundercats

You mean even if I feel like no antidepressant works for me I have to stay on them and then hope for a miraculous change through neurogenesis? I have a hard time imagining this. I mean I can't even imagine myself being "happy" and not being either worried,depressed or anxious especially not now where my health is bad and I have tons of other problems which also depress me. These problems don't go away by taking antidepressants.
Once I listened to an interview with the Peter Steele from Type 0 Negative and he talked about how he could never have children cause he'd worry all the time about something happening to them. I'm the same way. I ask myself how can people have children and not be consumed with fear that they might die? For me it's always about losing things. Even as a child I was afraid of losing things. A lot of stuff which other people do seem senseless to me. I ask myself what's the point of striving to reach goals in life when in the end everyone has to die? What difference does it make then? When you have such a pessimistic view of life it's really hard to motivate yourself to do crap which you hate. If it was up to me I'd just stay at home and not do anything. To me life is mostly a struggle and an endless chain of unpleasant things. Those moments where I feel content are rare and short.


----------



## riptide991

Yah well Peter Steele was also in Playgirl  

Once again, I was the same way, when an antidepressant works you will be like "WTF". I mean dude I couldn't go to grocery stores as I thought everyone around was looking at me and I was so freaking anxious. Now I can go without worrying one bit. I thought I was always going to be like that. I also wanted to drive my car into concrete walls everytime I drove but not anymore. Just keep trying treatments. Next doctors visit up your dosage.


----------



## riptide991

Ugh I ate something that's not agreeing with my stomach and I had some bad diarrhea. Weird part is I saw the wellbutrin XL shell in there. It looked whole still but was sunken in like the contents from inside were absorbed just the shell remained. Interesting how it works it must release the drug through tiny pockets in the shell for that to be able to happen.


----------



## wizeguy

Well after 7 days on wellbutrin xl 150mg: 

3 first days: anxiety , couldn't drink more than 2 espressos since anxiety would surface with a vengence.

4th and 5th day: No more anxiety and I felt that euphoria thing which was good but I was still waiting for the sexual drive to kick in. 

6th day: wow sex-drive increased and I kept on fantasizing the whole, I had to masturbate(since I don't have a GF) 2-3 times. 

7th day: Sex-drive gone :mum....

WTF?!?!?

It's like a tease, I wonder if it's going to come back??? I'm pissed ...


----------



## thundercats

@ wizeguy

You're screwed. That's the famous 7 day wellbutrin poop out, it's rather rare but it has been mentioned in the literature. Usually the patients experience an enormous sexual drive on day 5 or 6 followed by a total crash on day 7. 

@ kehcorpz

I don't know if that's normal. I think when you take effexor then you also crap out the entire capsule or parts of it but I don't know if this is the same case with wellbutrin. Imagine what kind of a joke it was if this stuff just goes right through you without doing anything.


----------



## riptide991

Nah it's normal, I looked it up, it's actually the way it is designed. It lets fluid into the capsule and then releases the ingredient slowly, it's quite ingenious. It will always be in your poop but you won't notice it unless you have diarrhea and it floats to the top hehe. The generics actually dissolve all the way and they don't work properly but FDA already acknowledged that even in the US.

Oh and wizeguy the funny part is even glaxosmithklines own studies showed that only 300mg impacted sex drive, you may just have the initial honeymoon. But yah my sex drive is nuts these days. It actually started getting stronger near 2 months on 300mg.


----------



## riptide991

Ok off to doctor, hope to get my prozac hehe.


----------



## wizeguy

Damn :sus ... My pharmacist told me to wait out another week ... But I CANT, I got a date Saturday and the girl might sleep over :mum ... Maybe it just takes longer to activate, a lot of phamacists told me that there's a lot of people on 150mg that got their sex-drive back ... Screw this I'm calling my psychiatrist :boogie ... 

But the problem is that I have OCD, so maybe 300mg will spike it up and give me a surplus of anxiety?!?!?


----------



## thundercats

That's a tough one. Either you're not scared but can't get it up or you're walking around with a boner being to scared to go into her room. :blank


----------



## riptide991

Bah he wouldn't give me Prozac. He said that in theory it sounds good but it will be a waste of time and possibly give me erectile dysfunction after it builds up. So he put me on Buspar + wellbutrin. I told him I read that buspar is useless and he said "yah alone it is useless but all my patients that take Wellbutrin + Buspar respond the best, on the internet you will only hear the bad stuff". So I humored him and accepted. I mean I don't mind since the principle cannabinoid in Marijuana binds to 5-ht1a and I felt great on Marijuana. It either works or doesn't but better to take a chance then not.


----------



## riptide991

wizeguy said:


> Damn :sus ... My pharmacist told me to wait out another week ... But I CANT, I got a date Saturday and the girl might sleep over :mum ... Maybe it just takes longer to activate, a lot of phamacists told me that there's a lot of people on 150mg that got their sex-drive back ... Screw this I'm calling my psychiatrist :boogie ...
> 
> But the problem is that I have OCD, so maybe 300mg will spike it up and give me a surplus of anxiety?!?!?


Even at 300 the sexual increase came to me near the 2 month mark. It did come a bit at first but then evened out. So I guess if you took it a few days before seeing her you may luck out hehe.


----------



## riptide991

I'm glad he didn't think I was hypomanic, cuz I couldn't stop giggling. I just felt really giggly. And I was at the grocery store and this old lady cuts in front of me. And I go "Hey i'm next in line, get back there" and I make this joking noise. And she's like "oh i'm so sorry, I don't know what's happening I just came here" and I go "that's ok you're old"

Very unlike me haha.


----------



## wizeguy

thundercats said:


> That's a tough one. Either you're not scared but can't get it up or you're walking around with a boner being to scared to go into her room. :blank


I'm not scared but I'm not the same as i would be thinking about that I would need stimulation to get or keep it up, *******! And it's like the excitement of thinking about her has vanished. :no


----------



## wizeguy

kehcorpz said:


> Even at 300 the sexual increase came to me near the 2 month mark. It did come a bit at first but then evened out. So I guess if you took it a few days before seeing her you may luck out hehe.


I see. But then why are most of the pharmacists I spoke to were saying that if you don't see a difference in the 1st 2 weeks then it wont work?! I guess they're not the experts. So maybe being patient is key and reassure myself that at 300mg, it will do the job. Freakin frustrating since I'm no where near of being shy approaching women. I can approach a girl in the street without being nervous or anything, of course while being on cipralex! I'M MISSING OUT THE ACTION :mum


----------



## riptide991

wizeguy said:


> I see. But then why are most of the pharmacists I spoke to were saying that if you don't see a difference in the 1st 2 weeks then it wont work?! I guess they're not the experts. So maybe being patient is key and reassure myself that at 300mg, it will do the job. Freakin frustrating since I'm no where near of being shy approaching women. I can approach a girl in the street without being nervous or anything, of course while being on cipralex! I'M MISSING OUT THE ACTION :mum


Well like I said i did see the hypersexuality when I went to 300mg but it evened out after. That doesn't mean I didn't have libido it just wasn't super high. But now it's back to being super high!

@thundercats I just picked up my buspar, guess what the first thing I do? I throw away the pamphlet lol. I never read that stuff because it makes no difference to me. I just take it how I'm told to take it.


----------



## riptide991

Just popped my first buspar since food increases its bioavailability and I just ate. Man it would suck being like thundercats where you'd be worrying about it. I'll put anything in my mouth without worrying. Well.... not anything so don't get any ideas guys.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Hell man i should be scared i just took adderall with this crap **** i was tweaking. I feel genuinely tired now kinda i think i may try increasing my lex back up to 5mg i always busted thicker on it for some reason and it help get rid of chronic pevic pain. So unsure right now. SSRI withdraws can mess with your head a bit i could go back up and taper slowly but im unsure.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Hell man i should be scared i just took adderall with this crap **** i was tweaking. I feel genuinely tired now kinda i think i may try increasing my lex back up to 5mg i always busted thicker on it for some reason and it help get rid of chronic pevic pain. So unsure right now. SSRI withdraws can mess with your head a bit i could go back up and taper slowly but im unsure.


I never withdrew from Zoloft but then again I was also taking wellbutrin when I went off.

I'm noticing this Buspar **** is making me really really warm. Like a warm and fuzzy feeling. I think 5-ht1a activation causes vasodilation to release body heat so you feel it on your skin and such. But hey reading studies and Buspar also releases dopamine which would make sense since it's an agonist of 5-ht1a.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Haha there drinking here again guess ill maintain. That good man maybe ill give that a shot next . The love hormone can be good for bloodpressure. Alcohol kinda can do the same. Seem's like some of my feeling were enchanced on a SSRI like feeling the wind blow on my skin or the taste of food was enjoyable sex was amazing for the first week or so then it tapers off i dun get that. I guess it kinda get you high initially then downregulation accures. Man i remember back in the day smoking pot the euphoria frigging amazing warm inside all tingly . To bad my brain dun react to weed like that no more.


----------



## thundercats

I just skimmed over the buspar leaflet and it does have a pretty long list of side effects. I think I'd be scared to take it. 
Does Buspar work like a benzo, I mean does it have an immediate effect or do you first have to take it for weeks before it actually does something?
I could use something anxiolytic but I don't think that my doc will prescribe me benzos and I also wouldn't want to take benzos daily when they cause addiction. You also shouldn't drink grapefruit juice when taking this.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I just skimmed over the buspar leaflet and it does have a pretty long list of side effects. I think I'd be scared to take it.
> Does Buspar work like a benzo, I mean does it have an immediate effect or do you first have to take it for weeks before it actually does something?
> I could use something anxiolytic but I don't think that my doc will prescribe me benzos and I also wouldn't want to take benzos daily when they cause addiction. You also shouldn't drink grapefruit juice when taking this.


Hmm I don't know i'm feeling very relaxed now, but who knows. The thing is that buspirone needs to first desensitize 5-ht1a autoreceptors before it really starts to do its magic so it could take time. But if you took an ssri before it might have already done that for you. My doc seems to think that it is great combined with wellbutrin and its from his experience with patients. I've actually read some good success stories, so it's like 50/50 on the net, but my doc says all his patients have responded well. Could be just luck of the draw or the U.S. version sucks because the FDA there doesn't care much kind of like the approval of bupropion XL generic. But yah we will see. The wellbutrin is already working pretty well for me. I've really been less inhibited on it too. Which if you read my comment in the grocery store you will see that's not usually like me. I'm more confrontational now.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Not really experiencing withdraws either it more a psychological thing just adapting and readapting having low serotonin is not necessary a bad thing. But i can't be expectin to agonize the recepter all the time they need there down time to i think. Coming off smoking and all this other crap is hard on the brain to readjust . Learn and adapt i guess. Try not to make the same mistake. Suprising im not going berserk like the last time. Looks like the SSRI was making the crash worse last time.


----------



## thundercats

How often do you have to take the buspar daily?

Hm, I just read that buspar should not be taken longer than 4 months at a time. :blank


----------



## riptide991

Hah, I made that mistake with weed. And yah I agree it was the best thing since sliced bread. Just I remember walking while on it and you could just feel the muscles in your cheeks because you had a permasmile. I had the same thing when Zoloft/Remeron worked. Now Im getting it some days with wellbutrin. My doc says that it's one of the slowest working drugs out there for actual full recovery of depression. You will see results earlier but the full recovery will take longer. Was reading on depression forums where some guy took 18 weeks or something like that before he woke up one day and it was like a light switch went off.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> How often do you have to take the buspar daily?
> 
> Hm, I just read that buspar should not be taken longer than 4 months at a time. :blank


I take it once in the morning and once at night.

Meh, I'm not worried I'll take it forever if I have to. It's not like a benzo where it becomes addictive.


----------



## GotAnxiety

kehcorpz said:


> Hah, I made that mistake with weed. yah I agree it was the best thing since sliced bread. Just I remember walking while on it and you could just feel the muscles in your cheeks because you had a permasmile.


Ya some guy said somethin like that to me "you must be a happy camper" back acouple months ago i had this killer grin on my face cause i was in love haha "what are you doing boy pitching a tent" i wasn't on an SSRI when that happened or maybe i was hell i dun remember back when i was switching meds too welly and lex from addy. Love must be the best medicine. Apparently you need low serotonin for love or something i guess it makes those depressed times better if you got some love. Hopefully that buspar works for you. Im scared to go ask my doc for another med he said he would fire me last time if i change my meds but i was askin for ritilin and you need a special type of docter note for that i don't see what the big deal is.


----------



## thundercats

I wonder are you doing your squats in a safety rack? I think it would be pretty risky to do squats without rack. I mean you never know what could happen from the meds. Buspar can also cause syncopes. It would be better to do squats and benchpressing on a power rack just to be on the safe side.
You could as well inform the owner of the gym or other frequent gym users that you're currently on buspar and wellbutrin and that you could pass out at any time and that they shall keep on eye on you lol.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Ya some guy said somethin like that to me "you must be a happy camper" back acouple months ago i had this killer grin on my face cause i was in love haha "what are you doing boy pitching a tent" i wasn't on an SSRI when that happened or maybe i was hell i dun remember back when i was switching meds too welly and lex from addy. Love must be the best medicine. Apparently you need low serotonin for love or something i guess it makes those depressed times better if you got some love. Hopefully that buspar works for you. Im scared to go ask my doc for another med he said he would fire me last time if i change my meds but i was askin for ritilin and you need a special type of docter note for that i don't see what the big deal is.


Well, 5-ht1a is primarily responsible for releasing oxytocin the love hormone. This is the binding hormone that gives you that good feeling when you're in love. So Buspar may help in that area hehe.



thundercats said:


> I wonder are you doing your squats in a safety rack? I think it would be pretty risky to do squats without rack. I mean you never know what could happen from the meds. Buspar can also cause syncopes. It would be better to do squats and benchpressing on a power rack just to be on the safe side.
> You could as well inform the owner of the gym or other frequent gym users that you're currently on buspar and wellbutrin and that you could pass out at any time and that they shall keep on eye on you lol.


Yah but that's because Buspar has the potential to lower blood pressure. But man I've taken lots of stuff in my life and the only medicine that ever gave me lower blood pressure was lexapro, but it wasn't that much lower. Typically my body keeps me in the optimal range no matter what. Plus, Wellbutrin would counter that effect anyways. So I'm not worried.

On a side note, I got woken up by my APC unit making a screeching noise. I think the backup battery died on it. I couldn't go back to sleep after that fiasco. Now, I did notice I woke up with a pretty dry mouth, I never really experience dry mouth so I'm guessing it was Buspar. It's gone now but still was weird.


----------



## riptide991

@thundercats ugh ever since you mentioned Peter Steele I've had "Black No. 1" stuck in my head. Even now I was just doing the dishes and singing it!


----------



## riptide991

Wow I am feeling the Buspar this morning. I took my 10mg pill and now drinking coffee and all of a sudden I have the weirdest feeling. I can't even explain it, it's almost like I'm high. I checked my blood pressure and it's 122/78 but my pulse is 89 which is pretty high for me. It's almost like I'm dizzy but not really, man I really can't even explain it. It feels like im floating. Actually someone else on crazymed forums mentioned this same thing "floating" feeling. It actually doesn't feel bad just not used to it hehe.

This feeling subsided after a few hours, just feeling calm. I must say I have been listening to music on my big speakers this morning and loving it. I'm talking really loud haha.

This is my sound setup, not for the faint of heart as it can rock the whole house. Great with movies though gives you a realistic theatre like experience.










Also dancing around a lot too haha. Although I must say Wellbutrin is more than likely 95% of this reaction and maybe Buspar 5%. I was already getting very gitty and happy yesterday before the Buspar.


----------



## wizeguy

thundercats said:


> @ wizeguy
> 
> You're screwed. That's the famous 7 day wellbutrin poop out, it's rather rare but it has been mentioned in the literature. Usually the patients experience an enormous sexual drive on day 5 or 6 followed by a total crash on day 7.


UPDATE: Day 8 on wellbutrin, libido is back from yesterday evening so it didnt poop out. But I got another problem: ANXIETY, it spiked up which spikes up my OCD. I will try to avoid caffeine since this anxiety started 3 days ago after 3 espressos but I was more obsessed about the libido so I didn't care about the anxiety. I will try one more week of no caffeine and the wellbutrin. I just spoke to my pharmacist and she told me that Mirtazapine(Remeron) is the second choice for SSRI induced-sexual dysfunction. We'll see, experiment continuing ...


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> @thundercats ugh ever since you mentioned Peter Steele I've had "Black No. 1" stuck in my head. Even now I was just doing the dishes and singing it!


I don't know that many song of type 0, but this one here I can totally identify with. The lead riff in the beginning sounds really awesome.


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## riptide991

Yah good song, this one is my favourite.


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## riptide991

I just finished cleaning the house as I just felt this need. And now I'm eating some delicious Quinoa. mmmm


----------



## riptide991

I was very stimulated today and I'm trying to find something about Buspar in regards to this. I found the below study which shows an interesting amount of Dopamine increase when augmenting with Buspar:



> *Abstract:* A serotonin (5-HT)1A receptor partial agonist, buspirone, potentiates the clinical antidepressant properties of 5-HT reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). Herein, we examined the interaction of buspirone with two SSRIs, duloxetine and fluoxetine, on extra-cellular levels of 5-HT, dopamine (DA), and noradrenaline (NAD) in single dialysate samples of freely moving rats. Duloxetine (5.0 mg/kg, s.c.) and fluoxetine (10.0 mg/kg, s.c.) increased dialysate levels of DA (65 and 60% vs. basal values, respectively), NAD (400 and 90%, respectively), and 5-HT (130 and 110%, respectively) in the frontal cortex (FCX). Buspirone (2.5 mg/kg, s.c.) similarly elevated levels of DA (100%) and NAD (160%) but reduced those of 5-HT (−50%). Administered with buspirone, the ability of duloxetine and fluoxetine to increase 5-HT levels was transiently inhibited (over 60 min), although by the end of sampling (180 min) their actions were fully expressed. In contrast, buspirone markedly and synergistically facilitated the elevation in DA levels elicited by duloxetine (550%) and fluoxetine (240%). Furthermore, buspirone potentiated the induction of NAD levels by duloxetine (750%) and fluoxetine (350%). These data suggest that a reinforcement in the influence of SSRIs on DA and, possibly, NAD but not 5-HT release in FCX may contribute to their increased antidepressant activity in the presence of buspirone. More generally, they support the hypothesis that a reinforcement in dopaminergic transmission in the FCX contributes to the actions of SSRIs and other antidepressant drugs.


Though this is not with Wellbutrin, would be interested to see if such a study was even done.

There's this one:



> *The combination of buspirone and bupropion in the treatment of depression.*
> 
> Fava M.
> PMID:17700052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


But no abstract available 

thundercats hooked me up with this one. It's a case study basically where wellbutrin and buspirone combo worked but wellbutrin alone did not remove all the symptoms.


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## riptide991

Took the Buspar a few hours ago and man my mouth is dry. I hope this is transient.


----------



## LynnNBoys

basuraeuropea said:


> i wish i were able to take wellbutrin but i freakkkkk out when taking it. panic attack central 24/7.


That's exactly what happened to me when I took Wellbutrin. I could stand it for only 10 days before I quit taking it. It was the worst.


----------



## riptide991

@LynnNBoys yah that goes away eventually. The increase in anxiety is only in the first few weeks.

Day 59 Wellbutrin XL 300mg and Day 2 1/2 Buspirone 20mg: I must say the Buspirone is definitely helping me sleep. I have been sleeping really well and uninterrupted. Typically I wake up a lot at night. I do however wake up every morning with a dry mouth and a mild headache which doesn't go away till I have some coffee. The very high libido is really starting to actually get annoying. I am constantly horny. It's starting to consume me. I have to avoid looking at anything that may look like a female. This includes curvy shapes.

I've been reading a lot of studies on Buspirone and I see why it's such a huge failure for people. One it should be augmented. 2 for some reason if you ever took a benzo buspirone becomes completely useless. They don't really know the full details of why but that's been the case in most studies. I like this one actually show it is a full agonist at presynaptic neurons.

(PMID 1796057) A quote: "In contrast, electrophysiological studies have indicated that in the raphe nuclei, buspirone behaves as a full agonist." It appears that buspirone functions, at least in the absence of an SSRI, as a full agonist presynaptically and as a partial agonist postsynaptically.

I'm pretty sure that buspirones metabolite 1-PP is potentiating the norepinephrine effect of Wellbutrin. When I drink 1 coffee I'm fine almost feeling euphoric but after my 2nd cup I become extremely anxious and can't stay in one spot. And typically before the Buspirone I'd have at least 3 in the morning. It could be just the initial effect.


----------



## wizeguy

LynnNBoys said:


> That's exactly what happened to me when I took Wellbutrin. I could stand it for only 10 days before I quit taking it. It was the worst.


Well I'm on day 9 and the anxiety is becoming very annoying. It's a side effect that may go away or may stay. Hopefully it's going to work out. Today no coffee for me and maybe that's where the anxiety got triggered.


----------



## GotAnxiety

300mg of Wellbutrin and 10mg of Dexedrine was a big success the other day it made me pretty lazy tho. Wellbutrin pretty much counter the binge eatting i normally experience when the Dexdrine wear's off and i was able to control my hunger all day. Hopeful it can prevent the weight gain Amp's can cause. Beside being lazy i felt pretty light on my feet it's not something i'd take every day. Seem's like every kind of stims elevate my diastolic pretty high. I'd try doing this experiment awhile back but it didn't work cause of my dose of Wellbutrin was to low and i wasn't on the Wellbutrin long enough.

I've been noticing random grey/white hair's i hope this isn't cause by the Wellbutrin lol. The chick that i had over a couple day's ago notice them first and i saw one in the mirror today i got a head full of dark brown hair so it easier to notice hopefully this drug doesn't cause premature aging im only 27 eh. Besides that my stomach looking pretty slim im still on day 4-5 of taking wellbutrin at 300mg so far i like it better.

I should do a befor and after picture i think my face looked better befor now i kinda look cracked out i guess its all that norepinephrine that makes you look that way.


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## riptide991

@gotAnxiety if anything Wellbutrin would do the opposite of premature aging since it raises DHEA-s levels, the anti-aging hormone.


----------



## thundercats

It's weird that people report anxiety from wellbutrin. I feel absolutely nothing.
Seems like everyone reacts different.


----------



## wizeguy

kehcorpz said:


> .


Hey Kehcorpz, was your libido good when you were on zoloft/remeron and what dosage were you on with remeron?


----------



## riptide991

wizeguy said:


> Hey Kehcorpz, was your libido good when you were on zoloft/remeron and what dosage were you on with remeron?


My libido has always been fine. I was on 200mg Zoloft and 45mg Remeron. Wellbutrin just boosted it beyond what is normal for me.


----------



## thundercats

If wellbutrin boosts libido then is this genuine libido or could it simply lead into a burnout? I mean what if you usually have no libido and then wellbutrin makes you jack off 5 times a day and then you end up totally drained?
According to this weird chinese guy here pretty much every disease can be attributed to over-masturbation. It's really insane. It goes from ADHD to yeast infection. 

http://www.actionlove.com/


----------



## riptide991

Well jacking off 5 times a day is a lot. But once a day is fine. Depends his view on over masturbation. But once a day is not over masturbation. But yah that guy is nuts anyways.


----------



## thundercats

Maybe he's nuts but what if he's right? I mean every time you ejaculate there's stuff happening in the brain. What if excessive masturbation leads to the death of neurotransmitters? I don't know if there are any studies about it. I think it would also be difficult to measure neurotransmitter concentration before and after excessive masturbation. But this would actually be an interesting field of expertise. They put you in a PET scanner and then you have to watch porn for hours and jack off 12 times in a row while they keep taking shots of the brain. I heard they're currently looking for voluntaries. Every participant gets free food and energy drinks + he gets free access to a HD internet porn site.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> Maybe he's nuts but what if he's right? I mean every time you ejaculate there's stuff happening in the brain. What if excessive masturbation leads to the death of neurotransmitters? I don't know if there are any studies about it. I think it would also be difficult to measure neurotransmitter concentration before and after excessive masturbation. But this would actually be an interesting field of expertise. They put you in a PET scanner and then you have to watch porn for hours and jack off 12 times in a row while they keep taking shots of the brain. I heard they're currently looking for voluntaries. Every participant gets free food and energy drinks + he gets free access to a HD internet porn site.


There are studies on endocrine responses to masturbation/ejaculation. They find that if you don't masturbate for 3 weeks or more your testosterone goes way up and you become agressive. Ejaculation keeps testosterone normal and raises prolactin temporarily. We are just like Animals. Think about animals in the wild during mating season humping 10 times a day hehe. I mean when I was with my ex and we were having sex 3+ times a day and I was feeling my best back then. I think watching excessive porn may influence your brain due to all the quick flipping between different scenes and desensitizing yourself as a result. But if you're having actual sex or using your imagination you should be fine.


----------



## wizeguy

Well decision has been made ... Im stopping wellbutrin xl ... it spikes my ocd way too much and the anxiety is unbearable. Next option: Remeron. I read that is alleviates ssri's induced sexual dysfunction. I'm pretty pist off :sus. I also heard that buspar can increase libido as well with less anxiety. I'll keep posting ...


----------



## riptide991

Good luck wizeguy. 

I think I just had a panic attack. I think the Buspar is way too stimulating. I don't really know if it was a panic attack but I had difficulty breathing just felt really weird. I've had that in the past before which is how I always knew I was having a panic attack but who knows what it is. Although I just popped a buspar and starting to feel better. Maybe it's withdrawal from in between doses? I know half life is pretty short and I took it at 9am today and now 12 hours later.


----------



## GotAnxiety

That lame if it produces panic attacks cause the halflife to short any drug that produces significant withdraws shouldn't be marketed reminds me of effexor the pill doesn't even cover the whole day only 20 hr so 4 hrs of the day your going thur withdraws.


----------



## riptide991

Yah now that I think about it it was because of these babybel cheese I was eating. I can still feel this weird mucous like reaction from it. I think it was causing some allergic reaction. They got milk in em, and me and milk do not get along. I know cheese is made of milk but when it's curdled i'm fine, these guys actually add milk to the cheese after it's curdled.


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## riptide991

Man I love when the morning dose of Buspar kicks in. It makes me feel mildly buzzed or something. It's just a very euphoric feeling. It only lasts a few hours but still it's nice.


----------



## riptide991

Day 60 Wellbutrin XL, Day 3 Buspar: So today I worked out, and cooked some nice food and I've been reading "Hitchhikers guide to galaxy", taking a food break from it now. But man that book is awesome. I'm actually really into the story. It seems like i'm getting my imagination back, it's been ages since I remember having a good imagination. But as I read I sort of picture what I'm seeing. It's pretty cool.


----------



## thundercats

In Stahl's book psychopharmacology of antidepressants he also talks about wellbutrin and he says that sometimes SSRI alone won't do much. This angers me. My ex-neurologist already wanted to end the treatment after celexa had failed making it look like antidepressant therapy makes no further sense. This makes me wonder if he had any clue. :roll


----------



## riptide991

Yah a lot of doctors are clueless even my doctor agrees. He says that I know more than the majority of doctors out there. Only the real specialists who love their job know this stuff.

Man in the last few hours I read 11 chapters of "The Hitch Hiker's guide to the galaxy". What an awesome book. I had to stop myself from continuing because I'll be up all night if I do. Wow can't believe I'm reading books again! haha


----------



## thundercats

I hate reading. I might listen to an audio book but reading is just too exhausting. I really can't understand why somebody would buy a book and read it.


----------



## GotAnxiety

i feel pretty jacked and pumped up on 300mg can't weight till i go too the gym and lift some hvy *** weights.
I would like to bump this up to 450mg or 600mg one day.


----------



## thundercats

How long have you been on 300?
And do you drink any alcohol? I am on 150mg and wine in the evening seems to be okay but when I go to 300 then I dont know if it'll still work.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Almost 10 days ya i drink i drank yesterday i had 2 beers but i would advise you to drink no more then one unit. 2 gave me a tension headache. And if you do decide to drink hvy drink no more then one day cause your brain recepter adapt to alcohol quicky. For emergency sleeping pills otc you can use gravol or to make that stronger combine that with robaxcant with aspirin or acetamphen depending if your on a ssri or not.


----------



## thundercats

i try to limit my wine intake to 220ml maximum. In the past I used to drink more but I dont want to risk anything. But going without wine would be really hard for me. I've come to really like my pre-bed wine.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Bump it up too 300mg man my doc said u can do that after 4 days on 150mg. But i say give 150mg 10 days to be on the safe side. Your choice man the ball in your court. 150mg is not really high enough to do much i think.


----------



## GotAnxiety

You should be fine just go by how you feel. You will know it it not necessary a blackout more like amnesia well awake if you drink to much. But you could go to jail if you do somethin stupid cause it can cause u to confront your problems and deal with it in the worst way possible.


----------



## thundercats

I also dont understand this. If 150mg do nothing why didnt my doc tell me to go to 300mg after a few days? I am losing so much time this way. I have to find something which works or rule out stuff which doesn't work as fast as possible. But somehow I'm scared to go to 300 on my own. What if I do get side effects from 300? I dont think my doc would like it if I did stuff on my own.


----------



## GotAnxiety

That what i did im doubling up on my 150mg doc gave me a script for 100. Wellbutrin pretty safe if your not mixing it with other drugs. If you can tolarate 150mg you can tolerate 300mg.


----------



## riptide991

Yah 150mg is useless, it's just used to make sure you don't react badly to the medicine. I wasted an entire month on it. And then I had to wait another 2 months before Wellbutrin 300 started to really do its job. Man I've been reading all day! I know what you mean thundercats with finding reading boring. That's how I am when I have anhedonia, but when the depression/anhedonia starts going away I actually start to enjoy reading.


----------



## riptide991

Day 61: I'm so addicted to reading that the majority of the day I was reading in bed on my tablet. Now I'm listening to music. I know that these drugs are definitely enhancing music because I almost get a mini orgasm when listening to a good song. I used to get like this on weed. And coincidentally weed works on 5-ht1a like buspar. I'm glad i'm one of the people that is actually noticing a difference with the buspar. Although on drugs.com there is more positive reviews than negative. Still a lot of negative though hehe. The thing is I never really was a huge fan of music while my brother always loved it. Weed was the only thing that ever made me enjoy music. I take it that I have always had some reward deficiency. In fact, I even found a study that hints people may suffer from it.



> *Do dopaminergic gene polymorphisms affect mesolimbic reward activation of music listening response? Therapeutic impact on Reward Deficiency Syndrome (RDS).*
> 
> snip....
> 
> Thus it is conjectured that similar mechanisms in terms of adequate dopamine release and subsequent activation of reward circuitry by listening to music might also be affected by an individual's D2 density in the VTA mediated interaction of the NAc. It is therefore hypothesized that carriers of DRD2 A1 allele may respond significantly differently to carriers of the DRD2 A2 genotype. In this regard, carriers of the D2 A1 allele have a blunted response to glucose and monetary rewards. In contrast powerful D2 agonists like bromocryptine show a heightened activation of the reward circuitry only in DRD2 A1 allele carriers. If music causes a powerful activation in spite of the DRD2 A1 allele due to a strong DA neuronal release which subsequently impinges on existing D2 receptors, then it is reasonable to assume that music is a strong indirect D2 agonist (by virtue of DA neuronal release in the NAc) and may have important therapeutic applicability in Reward Deficiency Syndrome (RDS) related behaviors including Substance Use Disorder (SUD).
> 
> I've never really had much of a reaction to glucose either which I have mentioned before.
> 
> *http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19914781
> *


----------



## thundercats

Music has always had a pretty strong effect on me. If I for example listen to a melancholic guitar solo then I immediately feel melancholic and vice versa.


----------



## gilmourr

This thread is like 400 posts, jesus.

How is everyone in here doing on it? I was contemplating it as a 2nd or 3rd augment when I level off at Nardil 45 mg.

What has everyone experienced? If you could be brief, maybe a 15 days in, 30 days in, 45 days in, 60 days in would be great. Thanks.


----------



## thundercats

gilmourr said:


> This thread is like 400 posts, jesus.
> 
> How is everyone in here doing on it? I was contemplating it as a 2nd or 3rd augment when I level off at Nardil 45 mg.
> 
> What has everyone experienced? If you could be brief, maybe a 15 days in, 30 days in, 45 days in, 60 days in would be great. Thanks.


GotAnxiety is at 300mg, obviously feeling good.

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/1060439005-post404.html

kehcorpz is at 300mg + recently started with buspar. He said he had to be on 300mg for 2 months before he felt the effect of it.



> I wasted an entire month on it. And then I had to wait another 2 months before Wellbutrin 300 started to really do its job.


I have been on 150mg for 3 weeks and don't feel anything. I will also have to go to 300mg. At least this stuff doesn't make you tired like remeron.


----------



## GotAnxiety

@Kehcorpz So what do you think of buspar so far? Is it helping?


----------



## riptide991

@gotanxiety, yah I think it's adding to the effect. I definitely have been feeling much better and gaining more interests. Although today I have a pretty big headache because I woke up later and took it about 2 hours later. But who knows it could be from something else hehe.


----------



## thundercats

I wonder what would happen if one added remeron to wellbutrin. Wouldnt this be better than prozac or zoloft because of the dual mechanism?


----------



## riptide991

Wellbutrin and Remeron are often prescribed together, a lot of people like it.


----------



## thundercats

Since I already know remeron I wonder if it would be best to try adding remeron when I come to adding something or wether I should add a SSRI which I havent tried yet.


----------



## riptide991

@thundercats, you seem to have OCD and Zoloft at 100mg+/day is usually good for that. 

Man I had to take an Advil I used to get migraines when I was young and this is almost as painful as a migraine, not quite there yet because migraines are comparable to filling your head with razor blades and then shaking it.


----------



## thundercats

Does remeron not help against ocd?

When I took 20mg celexa for 1 month I also didn't notice any ocd improval.


----------



## baxman

150 mgs of welbutrin is not useless at all.that was my dose when i started taking it an it had almost immediate effects.it put a dent in my anhedonia and increased energy/motivation at this dosage.after a few months effects went away and even increase in dosage didnt help and just made me edgy.

i wish welbutrin worked for my anhedonia like it did kehcorps.i havent read a book in years, see no need or reason to.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> Does remeron not help against ocd?
> 
> When I took 20mg celexa for 1 month I also didn't notice any ocd improval.


Nah it's never been approved for OCD. It can be used off label I guess. I know that with SSRIs the dosage for OCD is usually much higher than depression. Celexa also never has been approved by FDA for OCD but may be used off label. Zoloft has been approved for OCD. Prozac too in higher doses up to 80mg/day.


----------



## thundercats

That's interesting. But I once read the whole side effects of zoloft and I was shocked cause they were much longer than those of citalopram or maybe the list was much more exhaustive I don't know but I think it even mentioned cancer and stuff like that which was really scary. Maybe zoloft is more risky than for example celexa.

@ baxman

Well, I got no immediate effect.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> That's interesting. But I once read the whole side effects of zoloft and I was shocked cause they were much longer than those of citalopram or maybe the list was much more exhaustive I don't know but I think it even mentioned cancer and stuff like that which was really scary. Maybe zoloft is more risky than for example celexa.
> 
> @ baxman
> 
> Well, I got no immediate effect.


Funny because I took Lexapro which is the version of Celexa that is supposed to have less side effects and it is the only drug that caused insane side effects in me. From fatigue to crazy nausea. Zoloft at 200mg I didn't get a single side effect.


----------



## thundercats

Yeah well everyone's different. I'm also not scared of stuff like nausea but if it mentions cancer then that's scary. I mean who knows what the long term side effects of those drugs are? What if you take an antidepressant for a few month and then years later you get a disease caused by the antidepressant?


----------



## riptide991

Most antidepressants actually end up having health promoting effects from warding off heart disease to bacterial infections. Zoloft is a powerful anti-bacterial, anti-fungal. You're probably doing more damage to yourself eating from plastic containers.


----------



## Inshallah

Who is the Chinese guy with the overmasturbation theories? I'd love to laugh with his writings :cup


----------



## riptide991

@inshallah my guess is he probably has some issues with smallness.


----------



## riptide991

baxman said:


> 150 mgs of welbutrin is not useless at all.that was my dose when i started taking it an it had almost immediate effects.it put a dent in my anhedonia and increased energy/motivation at this dosage.after a few months effects went away and even increase in dosage didnt help and just made me edgy.
> 
> i wish welbutrin worked for my anhedonia like it did kehcorps.i havent read a book in years, see no need or reason to.


I'm already on the 2nd book of an 8 book series that I decided to read. It's great because I've read more in the last few days than the last few years haha. At least novel wise.


----------



## GotAnxiety

So you attribute your recent uptake on reading to the buspar?


----------



## riptide991

It's hard to say because Wellbutrin was really starting to kick in as well. But it's possible. I know Buspar is supposed to potentiate bupropion's andrenergic and dopaminergic activity.


----------



## Mish

Id just like to say ive been on Wellbutrin 150mg for 34 days now and it has just started to kick in, and it seems to work with energy, waking up in the morning, and easier to talk and to structure sentences when talking easier or like seems to make talking easier.

Im also on 100mg on Zoloft, and have seen zero effects been 2 weeks now, no side effects or positive effects. Mayb i will increase the dosage. thanks and keep this thread up.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Yeah i have that feeling that one day wellbutrin will be like a light switched on. I've been real horny today but im kinda pissy for smoking yesterday. Smoking withdraws are one of the worst. I kinda do miss being on the SSRI and i kinda don't. I don't miss the restlessness and insomina from the SSRI. I think i've been sleeping better since takin the Wellbutrin and it been helping with my low arousel. It feel's good flexing and better muscle contractions. i feel like i can get shredded in the gym with a good pump going. I've been somewhat more organized lately.


----------



## A Sense of Purpose

kehcorpz said:


> It's hard to say because Wellbutrin was really starting to kick in as well. But it's possible. I know Buspar is supposed to potentiate bupropion's andrenergic and dopaminergic activity.


I WISHHHH i could get Wellbutrin here. F... Australia.


----------



## riptide991

@Mish will do.

@GotAnxiety yah man I can't go a day without masturbating it's just not possible haha. 

So I just watched the hitch hiker's guide to the galaxy movie and now I see why people who read the book of something hate the movie. 

I've seen the movie before and I thought I liked it even though it was a long time ago and I was high off my tree. But man after reading the book you realize how much better the book is. It was way funnier, the story was better. The dialogue between characters was way better. Man I will have to make sure I always watch the movie first then read the book hehe.


----------



## flexpinoy

I'm give Wellbutrin XL a try. Does anyone know if it's ok to mix it with memantine? I'm on amp + klono + memantine combo but I really need a long break from klonopin and adderall.


----------



## thundercats

@ flex

Is this you on the avatar? Nice arms. 

I think you should ask your doc about memantine. Safety first!


----------



## flexpinoy

yes that's me. thanks.


----------



## riptide991

I just took some oxycodone because I was just feeling nauseous all day. I think it's the Buspar initial effect of lowering serotonin. From what I read it goes away after a week or so. Now I'm feeling damn good cuz of the oxycodone hehe.


----------



## virtual

*Wellbutrin only and brain shivers/vertigo*

I started generic (Watson) wellbutrin XL 11 days ago at 150mg. Within 2 hours I felt great and had a ton of energy. This lasted for two days.

Day 3-7 continued at 150mg and felt nothing, like I wasn't taking anything at all.
This is the first time I've ever taken any prescription meds.

Day 8-9 increased to 300mg xl and felt no change.

Yesterday on day 10 I started feeling brain zaps whenever I moved my head/body sideways. It felt like I would look at something and a split second later the scenery would catch up. Then I would feel a shiver/chill in my upper body and head.

I don't feel a headache or dizziness, it's just this split second feeling every time I turn my head abruptly. Up and down movement seems fine.

Today day 11 is the same.

I googled and it talks a lot about brain zaps when you are withdrawing from an SSRI, but mine is only while taking wellbutrin and I did see some people agreeing exactly with my symptoms.

My concern is if this is a precursor to a seizure.

Has anyone else experienced this? I wouldn't mind it if I knew this was just the adjustment period, and it'll eventually go away.

I was really hoping for the energizing feeling again when I went up to 300, but so far nothing. No increased libido, so far, either.


----------



## virtual

I wanted to add that I am female and 115 pounds, so perhaps this is just too much for me?

Also I still have a healthy appetite and experiencing the insomnia. I tend to toss and turn for a couple hours like 11pm to 1 am, then light sleep, then awake again around 4am, but then fall asleep again deeply. I wake up at 6:30am and by the time I'm vertical and walk the 15 seconds to take my wellbutrin, I am wide awake. Ive never had insomnia before and hoping this too will pass.


----------



## riptide991

virtual said:


> I wanted to add that I am female and 115 pounds, so perhaps this is just too much for me?
> 
> Also I still have a healthy appetite and experiencing the insomnia. I tend to toss and turn for a couple hours like 11pm to 1 am, then light sleep, then awake again around 4am, but then fall asleep again deeply. I wake up at 6:30am and by the time I'm vertical and walk the 15 seconds to take my wellbutrin, I am wide awake. Ive never had insomnia before and hoping this too will pass.


Typically initial side effects pass within 1-3 weeks depending on the individual. The brain zaps I have heard of people complaining about too but never experienced them. From what I understand it is also transient and should pass. Just avoid alcohol and anything that lowers the seizure threshold.


----------



## thundercats

@ virtual

If you're that worried about seizures simply get an EEG while being on wellbutrin. If you have an increased risk it'll show up on the EEG.


----------



## GotAnxiety

@Virtual were you on an ssri previously or any other medication ? Drinking alcohol with Wellbutrin can produce a host of nasty side effect as well the next day.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Day 8 on 300mg tried 25mg of Adderall with Wellbutrin abit of an overkill buzz think i perfer Wellbutrin over any other stims on the market cause of the sustainability and it doesn't produce a crash the only lame thing about it is you shouldn't drink on it. Vyvance probably would be the safest for mixing with it but that stuff expensive .


----------



## riptide991

Today I started taking Buspar on an empty stomach. I have been getting really bad nausea the last few days. I have always taken it with food because people say they get nausea when they don't. So I figure maybe I'm the opposite. The thing about Buspar is once you take it with food you should always take it with food or once you take it without you should always take it without. It's because food greatly changes how it works. So here's hoping to no Nausea!


----------



## A Sense of Purpose

kehcorpz said:


> The thing about Buspar is once you take it with food you should always take it with food or once you take it without you should always take it without. It's because food greatly changes how it works. So here's hoping to no Nausea!


Im worried about this Side effect you're experiencing as its the last thing i want to experience.

Im due to get buspar on Tuesday and am really hoping that it doesnt case nausea. Ive just had 2 weeks of bedbound nauseated insanity.

Everything ive read about it is how benign and non eventful the side effects are.


----------



## riptide991

Yah I didn't have the Nausea today and I took it without food. I think something happens when I take it with food. Funny thing is more people complain getting nausea without food. I guess I'm different.


----------



## GotAnxiety

What should i say to my doc to get Buspar should i just be straight up and tell him i wanna do a trial of Buspar or should i lie to him and say im already on Buspar and try and get a refill haha what one do you think will work? 

I've been thinking about bunkering down for the winter and getting a big fat flat screen and an xbox 360 again this year i dunno if i wanna do that again to my self it so temping tho. I wanna get an elipical for my room as well i dunno it might just be a waste of money. 

I went to the bar tonight i had like 3 beers it wasn't to bad i tried the vlt's i won my money back i was up 25 but lost it. Doing max bet on keno I got the fireball twice to bad i did't get anything i was close tho.


----------



## thundercats

@ gotanxiety

You say you prefer wellbutrin over adderall. What do you mean? Against add? Does wellbutrin even do anything against add? I read a study claiming that it's as effective as MPH but i dont really believe this. I think MPH/Adderall and wellbutrin are in different leagues.


----------



## GotAnxiety

I mean it a safer alternative amphetmines are pretty dirty drug's. dri or nri are alot cleaner then releasers alot less neurotoxic more sustainable. Amps can leave you somewhat brain dead the next day the practicality of taking a pill that can enchance cognitive function for a couple hours but hurt cognitive function for weeks after using does not make lots of sense. Wellbutrin does work for add / adhd but it not gonna have the direct effects or the side effects that are associated with the greater stimulants or the crashes / rebounds. 

Wellbutrin has helped with crashes / withdraws of coming off amphetimines just show that it has it usefulness that it can take over and provide in a place of another substance in almost the same catorgory .


----------



## thundercats

It would be cool if it helped against ADD cause I think I might have some form of ADD. 
I also wonder if you take wellbutrin and then DA and NE rise, is this only in the brain or do they also pass the barrier? If yes, then I wonder if raising DA and NE in the entire body is healthy. 
I know that levodopa for example against restless legs contains a substance which makes sure that you only get more dopamine in the brain but not in the rest of the body which indicates that raising dopamine outside of the brain isn't good.


----------



## GotAnxiety

It should help abit im glad i went on it. NE works on arousal and modivation. i've been cleaning lately and more orginized so my life is less clutter. I know neruotransmiter in the brain grovern some hormonal responses in the body.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> What should i say to my doc to get Buspar should i just be straight up and tell him i wanna do a trial of Buspar or should i lie to him and say im already on Buspar and try and get a refill haha what one do you think will work?
> 
> I've been thinking about bunkering down for the winter and getting a big fat flat screen and an xbox 360 again this year i dunno if i wanna do that again to my self it so temping tho. I wanna get an elipical for my room as well i dunno it might just be a waste of money.
> 
> I went to the bar tonight i had like 3 beers it wasn't to bad i tried the vlt's i won my money back i was up 25 but lost it. Doing max bet on keno I got the fireball twice to bad i did't get anything i was close tho.


Get a good PC instead. Ever since I bought a powerful gaming PC my consoles have been collecting dust. Plus you can use your Xbox controller on pretty much all games nowadays on your PC, or even ps3 controller. I'm playing this game Witcher 2 and this game is freaking epic, and graphics are so amazing when maxed out.

As far as the doctor say "I want something for anxiety but I don't want to use SSRIs or benzos, I read there's something called Buspar, what do you think?"


----------



## riptide991

Day 66 Wellbutrin, Day 9 Buspar: I must say the nausea from Buspar has been a bit to handle. I have had much less nausea yesterday, still a bit though. I have moved to taking it on empty stomach. I still feel a bit of Nausea today and really bad dry mouth. This is the strongest side effects I've ever had from a drug minus lexapro keeping me fatigued like hell. Doctor did say that the effects should go away within 3 weeks. So since nausea is getting better i'm assuming it could be not because of food but time in general. Still I prefer taking it without food because I can pop it right before bed or right when I wake up. Also I'm on a much higher starting dose than normal. I think it's 5mg twice/day usually for start and I'm on 10mg twice/day. Either way there are moments that show that this thing may be good as in the mornings I get a bit of euphoria almost after taking it. My sex drive has been super high regardless of nausea. I think it might have gotten even worse now. Ugh. Trying to play games to get focus off sex.

I must say the nausea feels quite like it did back when I took Bromocriptine. Bromocriptine is a dopamine agonist. I had to take a really low dosage to avoid nausea even though the nausea is always a transient effect.


----------



## thundercats

I'm still at 150. Currently dont dare to go to 300. Right now I need my alc in the evening. I also worry that going to 300 now might be dangerous cause I have so much stress right now. I dont know if it would be smart to increase the dose right at a time where you're under a ****load of pressure.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Stupid pharmacies only gave me 30 150mg now im in trouble i need more lol.


----------



## riptide991

This morning I feel kind of different. Way more social. Weird.


----------



## Mr Bacon

hey kehcorps, 

I dont want to bother reading through your whole thread. However, are you noticing a net improvement over time, or is it more of an unstable progress with unpredictable ups and downs?

thanks


----------



## riptide991

Very slow improvement the majority starts becoming noticeable at month 2 but at 300mg.

I've read stories of people getting the light switch moment at 18-24 weeks with Wellbutrin. That's a long time. Read how they stuck it out. It seems to be that a light switch moment occurs one day and you feel great. 

Kind of like with weed when a light switch moment occurs and you go nuts.


----------



## thundercats

What if you dont have that much time to find out if it works or not? Not everyone can afford taking something for half a year which might not even work. GRRRR


----------



## riptide991

Well you already wasted a month on 150mg which is just too low of a dose and very rarely works.


----------



## Mish

I would have to concur with Kecorpz on this one. He is the leading advisor for Wellbutrin information  

Yea it took me near 30 days to feel anything. But once it works it will definitely work. You feel more energetic and less tired, easier to wake up in the morning, but much harder to fall asleep. Also It will not necessarily cut out anxiety for you, it hasn't for me. What is has to done is made socializing more pleasurable. But the anxiety is still there. This medication takes a while to work. And im only on 150 mg. It does take effect however and you should be able to see a difference.


----------



## thundercats

I don't even know if wellbutrin is right for me. I don't have SA. I have depression and anxiety. How does it help me if I take something stimulating which makes me feel energized and at the same time I'm depressed and anxious?
I really don't know if antidepressants can help someone like me at all. I have so much depressing **** all around me I'm sick of it.


----------



## riptide991

@thundercats: I don't get anxious on it, it actually helped with my anxiety.

Man today I woke up and my jaw is sore. Probably a case of Bruxism at night. But hard to say cuz I just sleep weird as it is.


----------



## A Sense of Purpose

kehcorpz said:


> @thundercats: I don't get anxious on it, it actually helped with my anxiety.
> 
> Man today I woke up and my jaw is sore. Probably a case of Bruxism at night. But hard to say cuz I just sleep weird as it is.


Where's the nausea at? Is it still a problem?


----------



## riptide991

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Where's the nausea at? Is it still a problem?


It wasn't yesterday, but I also didn't eat much yesterday. I was living off V8 original cans because I was so engaged in a video game haha.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Kehcorpz hows your sleep since you starting Buspar?


----------



## riptide991

It seems to help. There's some studies I read that it actually helps with sleep latency and REM duration.


----------



## GotAnxiety

So that Buspar stuff makes orgasm better? Hehe


----------



## riptide991

I guess in theory it could since 5-ht1a is responsible for oxytocin. I have good orgasms but it could be Wellbutrin.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Day 12 300 Mg 

I woke up today i can't believe how good I've been sleeping lately compared to being on an SSRI. SSRI make me hyper and restless kinda makes it feel like my nuts are caught in a vice grip not a feeling that actually good for someone with adhd and the insomia they can cause as well sucks to big time. I got an 8 hour sleep today sometimes i get more 10+ i wake feeling rested which is good first when starting the wellbutrin i did get some initial tension in my neck but that went away after 10 days even with a dose increase it never came back. I've been drinking moderately lately 1 to 3 beers and it hasn't been posing any probloms so far i even take breaks from that once n awhile it been almost 2 weeks since i drank heavily no desire to binge . Life been good modivation starting to come back and confidence i think im almost unto my road to recovery .


----------



## riptide991

> *Effects of 5-HT agonists, selective for different receptor subtypes, on oxytocin, CCK, gastrin and somatostatin plasma levels in the rat.*
> 
> Uvnäs-Moberg K, Hillegaart V, Alster P, Ahlenius S.
> *Source*
> 
> Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> Adult male Sprague-Dawley rats were administered the 5-HT subtype selective receptor agonists 8-OH-DPAT (0.5-2.0 mg/kg), buspirone (2-8 mg/kg) (5-HT1A), TFMPP (0.125-2.0 mg/kg) (5-HT1B), DOI (0.125-2.0 mg/kg) (5-HT2A) and m-CPBG (1.25-20.0 mg/kg) (5-HT3), subcutaneously. Oxytocin, cholecystokinin (CCK), somatostatin and gastrin plasma levels were  determined by standard RIA techniques 30 and 120 min after injection of the respective 5-HT receptor agonist. It was found that the 5-HT1A and the 5-HT2A/C, but not the 5-HT2B or the 5-HT3 receptor agonists produced an increase in plasma oxytocin levels and these effects were, at least partially, antagonized by the corresponding subtype selective antagonists (-)pindolol (2 mg/kg) and ritanserin (2 mg/kg), respectively, administered 10 min before 8-OH-DPAT (0.5 mg/kg) or DOI (0.5 mg/kg). The maximal response to the 5-HT1A receptor agonists (approx. 120 nmol/l) was from 8 to 5 times the maximal response to the 5-HT2A C receptor agonist. In addition, 8-OH-DPAT and DOI caused a decrease in plasma CCK levels, whereas the 5-HT1B receptor agonist TFMPP gave rise to an increase in plasma CCK levels. There were no statistically significant effects by any of the 5-HT receptor agonists on plasma somatostatin or gastrin levels under the present conditions. It is suggested that the clinical effects of new anxiolytic 5-HT1A receptor agonists, such as buspirone, to an extent may be mediated via an increased release of oxytocin.





> *Stimulation of 5-HT1A and 5-HT2/5-HT1C receptors induce oxytocin release in the male rat.*
> 
> Bagdy G, Kalogeras KT.
> *Source*
> 
> Laboratory of Experimental Medicine, National Institute of Psychiatry and Neurology, Budapest, Hungary.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> Plasma oxytocin responses to the 5-HT1A receptor agonists 8-hydroxy-2-(di-n-propylamino) tetralin (8-OH-DPAT), buspirone and ipsapirone, and the 5-HT2/5-HT1C receptor agonist 1-(2,5-dimethoxy-4-iodophenyl)2-aminopropane (DOI) have been studied in conscious, freely moving male rats. All four compounds caused dose-related increases in plasma oxytocin concentrations after intravenous administration. Oxytocin responses to 8-OH-DPAT were significantly attenuated by pretreatment with the 5-HT1A receptor antagonist NAN-190 while responses to DOI were blocked by pretreatment with the 5-HT2/5-HT1C receptor antagonist ritanserin. Since vasopressin concentration did not change despite the marked elevation in plasma oxytocin, these results suggest that 5-HT1A and 5-HT2/5-HT1C receptors all stimulate oxytocin secretion, and this effect does not reflect a general neurohypophyseal hormone release.


Man If I was a rat....


----------



## riptide991

Nice Dopamine increases from Buspirone almost as high as seroquel. I imagine that the Seroquel being an antagonist of all D1 D3 D4 results in an increase in Dopamine at D2:










Also an increase in noradrenaline:










And serotonin:


----------



## thundercats

Why does serotonine go down? I thought it has to go up.


----------



## riptide991

It didn't really alter serotonin as you can see it's in line with the saline solution. The saline solution is what lets it track normal levels and any differences account for the drug. Plus I've read some studies where buspirone is presynaptically a partial agonist but full agonist at post synaptic receptors. So it's like it's mimicking serotonin and giving you the same effect as if serotonin were to bind there.


----------



## thundercats

I always thought that you can't just measure the serotonine in the brain via blood/urine/saliva. I mean if it was that simple then every depressed person only had to get such a test and bang you'd know if you're deficient or not. This doesn't add up. :mum


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I always thought that you can't just measure the serotonine in the brain via blood/urine/saliva. I mean if it was that simple then every depressed person only had to get such a test and bang you'd know if you're deficient or not. This doesn't add up. :mum


It's a study in rats 

You know they have a number of ways of doing it. One study I was reading they actually decapitated the rats and had to quickly do measurements. Luckily they gave the rats anesthesia which at least is more humane.


----------



## thundercats

That is so cruel. Imagine giants came along using humans as rats and then doing the same with us. Unbelievable! :mum


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> That is so cruel. Imagine giants came along using humans as rats and then doing the same with us. Unbelievable! :mum


It is, no doubt, but it has helped humans a lot. We probably would have never survived something like smallpox had we not done tests like these. And if giants did it, i'd hope they gave me anesthesia as well hah.


----------



## thundercats

I can't support this. I am not willing to take an antidepressant which rats had to die for. Then we could as well directly eat rat brains. Maybe this would be even more effective against depression than those antidepressants. Why not simply put rat brains in pills and take them? Neurotransmitters, baby.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I can't support this. I am not willing to take an antidepressant which rats had to die for. Then we could as well directly eat rat brains. Maybe this would be even more effective against depression than those antidepressants. Why not simply put rat brains in pills and take them? Neurotransmitters, baby.


Dude don't be so ignorant. You realize how much stuff is tested on animals. You know that they tested shampoo on bunnies and made sure it got in their eyes to test the safety and some formulas would burn their eyes out while they were alive. You have to become a monk to avoid it.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Lets take a momment of silence to remerber all the rats that have died in the name of science.


----------



## GotAnxiety

0.5 secends later alright were done.


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Dude don't be so ignorant. You realize how much stuff is tested on animals. You know that they tested shampoo on bunnies and made sure it got in their eyes to test the safety and some formulas would burn their eyes out while they were alive. You have to become a monk to avoid it.


This makes me sick. I'm gonna ask in the supermarket for the bunny free shampoo.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> This makes me sick. I'm gonna ask in the supermarket for the bunny free shampoo.


Well, I don't think they do it anymore, because all shampoos now use the same ingredients and they have already been tested. But when they were new they had to test. Otherwise you may have had your eyes burned out. The question is do we need shampoo? I mean why can't we just wash our hair with water? That's what they did before the days of shampoo.


----------



## thundercats

Water alone doesn't work for me. My hair gets really greasy if I don't wash it for a few days + how am I supposed to remove all the hair gel? I need a lot of shampoo. But I recently read about all the chemicals in shampoo. It's insane. Nowadays everything is full of toxins.


----------



## riptide991

I use this coconut shampoo without sodium laurel sulfate. It smells so good. Women have even commented on it while they were sniffing my hair. Damn perverts. It basically has none of the harsh detergents.


----------



## thundercats

Maybe I could also try to find an organic shampoo but the problem is that I also depend on aggressive medical shampoos cause I have seborrhoic dermatitis on the scalp and also in the face and in order to keep it under control I need ketoconazole shampoos. They help against the eczema but I'm sure this stuff also isn't very healthy.


----------



## riptide991

But does it work for your seborrhoic dermatitis? Besides Keto you only use once a week no?


----------



## thundercats

The ketoconazole shampoo does work. I use it whenever needed. When the SE is really bad I need it more often. I worry a bit that this stuff might be too harsh for the face but I never had any problems. But one time I asked my dermatologist if there other other shampoos against SE and he prescribed a different one and I asked him if this can also be used on the face and he said no because it's too aggressive. 
The SE is really depressing. I have tried so many creams over the years and none of them works. The only thing which works is cortisone cream but this isn't good for the skin either. But when the **** flares up like a torch then all you can do is use cortisone to reduce the inflammation. I have had days where I looked so bad that I couldn't leave the house. And over time I get new spots in the face which then also start to become inflammed. It's like a battle you can't win. This eczema alone would be enough to be depressed about.


----------



## riptide991

Head and shoulders works against SE as well. I wouldn't put Nizoral shampoo on your face though. Get a separate keto cream. The shampoo has very harsh detergents, not good for your skin. Yah cortisone causes skin thinning over the long run. I've heard some people using tea tree oil to help. Worth a try if you have no luck with anything else.

I used to have something like eczema or psoriases. I never really got it diagnosed I just stopped washing my face as it was irritated from all the crap I used to put on it. I haven't washed my face with anything but water in years and my skin is great. You have to becareful with how much crap you put on your face, and detergents in shampoos are irritants so like i said don't put nizoral on your face. Get a Keto cream prescription if necessary.


----------



## thundercats

I have a nizoral cream against SE but the thing is this stuff doesn't work!
It's strange cause the shampoo works and the cream doesn't even though both contain the same stuff.
I also used H&S but I recently read about shampoos in a magazine which tests foods and all kinds of things for safety that H&S also contains harmful substances.
I also cannot use cream everwhere. I have this **** also on the upper lip and I can't use those SE creams there cause I don't want to get this stuff in my mouth. Or else I'd have to walk around the whole time without being able to drink anything. That's not practical. The only thing which really helps is the shampoo. :/


----------



## riptide991

Well, like I said do some research on tee tree oil. Worth trying. 

Man winds are going to be 94km/hour here tonight. New York will get hit harder though.


----------



## Mr Bacon

kehcorpz said:


> Very slow improvement the majority starts becoming noticeable at month 2 but at 300mg.
> 
> I've read stories of people getting the light switch moment at 18-24 weeks with Wellbutrin. That's a long time. Read how they stuck it out. It seems to be that a light switch moment occurs one day and you feel great.
> 
> Kind of like with weed when a light switch moment occurs and you go nuts.


Waiting 6 months for a pseudo-light-switch-effect to happen, because 2 dudes talked about it on some forum, doesn't sound right to me. :sus Very anecdotical at best...

but if you can really feel the gradual improvement over time it's worth it.


----------



## thundercats

I'll look into tree oil but I'm not very optimistic. I have already tried other miracle cures like apple cidre vinegar and it also didn't work. These things always work for others but not for me.

I'm not gonna take wellbutrin for months at a time. If this **** doesn't work then maybe I quit antidepressants alltogether. I have been on ADs now since May and did they help me? No. I could as well not have taken anything then at least I wouldn't have been tired and gained weight from remeron. I am slowly getting really pissed off and angry. I really wonder do the psychiatrists who prescribe all this stuff even believe in it or do they also think to themselves that this is absolutely useless crap which hopefully doesn't cause side effects?


----------



## riptide991

umm you're only taking 150mg. Once again you keep postponing. You need to give 300mg 2 months, then make your decision.


----------



## thundercats

I only keep postponing cause I need my pre-bed alcohol without it I'll be lying in bed for hours before finally falling asleep. If I knew that on 300 I could still have my wine and beer then I'd directly do it.


----------



## riptide991

You can still drink on it as long as you don't go overboard.


----------



## thundercats

But how do you know? What if the seizure threshold is so low on 300 that 1 glass of wine is already too much? That's scary.


----------



## riptide991

The chances of lowering your seizure threshold is 0.4% on 300mg/day. That's not even 1%.  The secret is not to binge drink but do it in moderation.


----------



## thundercats

Ok then maybe I will soon go to 300 but it's still always scary when you go on a new drug or increase the dosage cause then there's always this uncertainty of not knowing if something will happen or not.


----------



## riptide991

I'm finding a lot of info on Buspirone/melatonin combination causing an impressive neurogenesis response in rat brains.



> *An exploratory study of combination buspirone and melatonin SR in Major Depressive Disorder (MDD): A possible role for neurogenesis in drug discovery.*
> 
> Fava M, Targum SD, Nierenberg AA, Bleicher LS, Carter TA, Wedel PC, Hen R, Gage FH, Barlow C.
> *Source*
> 
> Department of Psychiatry, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA, USA.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> We used in vitro neurogenesis-based human neural stem cell (hNSCs) assays and rodent in vivo behavioral assays to identify potential novel antidepressants. A combination of buspirone and melatonin displayed antidepressant activity in these assays whereas neither buspirone nor melatonin alone showed any antidepressant-like profile. After evaluating numerous combination ratios, we determined that low dose buspirone 15 mg combined with melatonin-SR 3 mg yielded optimal antidepressant efficacy in our pre-clinical platform. The low dose of buspirone suggested that antidepressant efficacy might be achieved with only minimal adverse event liability. Based on these data, we conducted an exploratory 6-week, multi-center, double-blind, randomized, placebo- and comparator-controlled study of the combination of buspirone and melatonin in subjects with acute Major Depressive Disorder (MDD). The combination treatment revealed a significant antidepressant response in subjects with MDD on several measures (Clinical Global Impression of Severity and Improvement, Inventory of Depressive Symptomatology) compared to either placebo or buspirone 15 mg monotherapy. These preliminary findings have clinical implications and suggest that a platform of pre-clinical neurogenesis matched with confirmatory behavioral assays may be useful as a drug discovery strategy.
> Copyright © 2012 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.





> *Low-dose buspirone, melatonin and low-dose bupropion added to mood stabilizers for severe treatment-resistant bipolar depression.*
> 
> Nierenberg AA.
> PMID:19738411 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


I used to take melatonin every day till i started zopiclone one day. Now I was doing like micrograms to help sleep when I stopped Zopiclone. And to make things easier I'm up to 1.25mg before bed. Although I haven't seen a sustained release formula anywhere.

Hey this one is pretty much my combo minus the mood stabilizer haha.


> TitleLow-dose buspirone, melatonin and low-dose bupropion added to mood stabilizers for severe treatment-resistant bipolar depression.Author(s)Nierenberg AA SourcePsychother Psychosom 2009; 78(6):391-3.


----------



## thundercats

Who says that neurogenesis has to be positive? What if it can also cause cancer?


----------



## riptide991

I don't care if it's cancerous, even though it's not. Here's how I see things. Say these drugs destroy my liver and in 5 years I die. I rather die in 5 years being happy than live 10 more years depressed. I wasted many years of my life not getting treatment. I mean a good 15 years. I almost killed myself and these drugs have already extended my life. Technically I would already be dead.


----------



## thundercats

You only have SA right or do you have other reasons to be depressed?
I'd love to exchange all my **** for SA and then be healthy again.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> You only have SA right or do you have other reasons to be depressed?
> I'd love to exchange all my **** for SA and then be healthy again.


Nope I had Major Depressive disorder, disassociative disorder(deralization), anhedonia, general anxiety, and panic disorder. Unlikely someone with SA would be on the brink of suicide 

I don't think I ever had SA, I just don't like being social, but i'm not anxious about it.


----------



## thundercats

Ah ok. I didn't know that. I thought you only have SA.
Do you know why exactly you're depressed? Are there reasons for being depressed or are you depressed and can't tell why?


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> Ah ok. I didn't know that. I thought you only have SA.
> Do you know why exactly you're depressed? Are there reasons for being depressed or are you depressed and can't tell why?


I have no reasons. I have slowly fallen into deeper and deeper depression from when I was a kid. Oddly enough I used to get severe migraines when I was young. Maybe it's related to some genetic issue. But my MRI revealed serious atrophy. That's why I was at a point of derealization where nothing seemed real. It was like a dream or something.


----------



## thundercats

How can this happen? Is it still shrinking? 
What did the doctor say? Can you prevent this somehow through diet like getting enough omega3 and stuff like that?


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> How can this happen? Is it still shrinking?
> What did the doctor say? Can you prevent this somehow through diet like getting enough omega3 and stuff like that?


Well I haven't had an MRI since but the fact that things are getting better show the anti depressants are slowly reversing it through neurogenesis.


----------



## thundercats

But didn't the radiologist who made the scans say anything about it or the neurologist or psychiatrist who treats you? I mean they must have said something about it and given an explanation or maybe an advice?
I've also been depressed for a long time but my MRIs have always been normal.


----------



## riptide991

Well yah when you have major depression and such you get serious atrophy. And antidepressants reverse it but it's a slow process. The atrophy was also a slow process that was occurring over the years. I won't be getting another MRI for another year. MRIs are expensive and if im making progress it's not necessary at this point.


----------



## thundercats

They could at least have given you some nutritional advice or something. But I know that traditional doctors don't give such advice. They probably think that it doesn't even matter. I'd try to optimize my diet for brain health. Like taking fish oil and eating an egg and nuts every day and doing stuff like that. Walnuts also look like brain I don't think this is a coincidence. This way people know what to eat for what kind of problem. It's a clever mechanism.


----------



## riptide991

I've been a health nut since I was 19. I already eat healthy and my doctors know that. In fact, I hate junk food, only junk food I like is pizza. But it's not typical junk food like your mcdonalds fries/sugary drinks and nasty burgers made of pink slime.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Man I've been so horny today i fapped six times today omg i did my usual chest routine 300 pushups it been about an month since i did them last and the pump was amazing can't wait till i get my weights out of storage.


----------



## GotAnxiety

What is your typically daily intake of food like kehcorpz?


----------



## Mish

@kehcorpz, have a look at this please http://www.antiaging-systems.com/132-melatonin-zn-se I use it ALOT very good melatonin formula works and is extended. Helps with the wellbutrin sleep problems.

P.S the derealization thing i dealt with in the passed, most of my problems started after a bad acid trip including muscle twitching, panic attacks and social withdrawal. I had the derealization for about 3 days. It went away but left those other problems. 5 years later i dont have panic, still have twitching and am still not enjoying socializing but am not anxious when in those situations. P.S weed has also caused me much mental anguise after i have the bad acid trip, i cant enjoy it now at all without freaking out and verging on a panic heart racing mental attack. Lol feeling pritty good these days but the social anhedonia is a bummer.


----------



## riptide991

I woke up with a pretty big headache which I think was the result of upping my melatonin. May be just getting used to it. The only thing that really worries me about supplement companies is that they say things but there's no way to prove it. What really got me thinking was this line:

"By taking Melatonin ZnSe just before bedtime, half to one (maximum two) 3mg tablets can enable a quality sleep "

It says to split it in half, but if you split it in half you will not get this slow release mechanism. Anyone offering a slow release mechanism will make sure you do not do this. This is why doctors/GSK say do not split wellbutrin XL. Extended release works based on the pill itself and even the coating. But it's not enough to just enterically coat it as all that will do is let it survive the ph of the stomach but once in large intestine it will all get released. Extended release tech is pretty expensive from what I understand and it's tough too. Look at the generics for Wellbutrin XL, they fail to get it right and aren't even approved in Canada.

And damn about the acid trip. I have heard of people getting f'd up from acid. I knew this guy in high school that had a bad trip and then he became so freaking weird, neurotic, paranoid, you name it. He was never the same.



Mish said:


> @kehcorpz, have a look at this please http://www.antiaging-systems.com/132-melatonin-zn-se I use it ALOT very good melatonin formula works and is extended. Helps with the wellbutrin sleep problems.
> 
> P.S the derealization thing i dealt with in the passed, most of my problems started after a bad acid trip including muscle twitching, panic attacks and social withdrawal. I had the derealization for about 3 days. It went away but left those other problems. 5 years later i dont have panic, still have twitching and am still not enjoying socializing but am not anxious when in those situations. P.S weed has also caused me much mental anguise after i have the bad acid trip, i cant enjoy it now at all without freaking out and verging on a panic heart racing mental attack. Lol feeling pritty good these days but the social anhedonia is a bummer.


----------



## Mish

@kehcorpz yea man lol well most of the real problems since than have gone away since the bad trip, but it was a miserable time in my life plus i flunked high school at the same time so it was bad. Im in university now doing pritty good and not suffering from any real mental problems or depression etc. its just the social withdrawal or lack of interest that really bothers me. the muscle twitching thing we checked out at the doctors had mris the whole works we thought it was MS or something but they dont know what it is. They checked it and it aint a serious problem which is good. And BTW melatonin almost always causes me headaches too, which is a bummer. but i got used to it. There is hope for us who knows when the magic switch will turn on i dont think meds will do it but **** it im sticking with the wellbutrin it does help me feel better. only screws me sleep but lol whatever.


----------



## riptide991

Yah my social anhedonia is pretty strong too. No social anxiety, just don't really care to talk to people, it doesn't do anything for me. Wellbutrin has been good with starting me on the path of getting interests back, but not sure if I'll ever have social interests as I've been introverted for a long time. I was really social when I was a kid but that slowly disappeared as my disease progressed and I've had it so long i just don't know any other way. This is probably one of those things where I'd need to add CBT maybe.

Yah I used to take 3mg melatonin every day for years and years and never got headaches, I think it's just a transient effect that will go away. I had to take 2 advils it was so bad. I also took another 0.5mg of melatonin during the day. Simply because I was reading a study and melatonin is excreted all day just has specific peaks at around dawn and then again at midnight. The problem with taking hormones is that your own body stops producing it over time. So seeing how I took it for years who knows what's going on with my pineal gland in terms of melatonin, it's good to have a small amount secreting throughout the day. I have been feeling relaxed but that could be thanks to the Ibuprofen hehe.


----------



## Mish

Im pritty sure there is only one way to break the cycle of reclusivity, and i know for myself what i must do. That would be check into some exposure therapy and follow it through for like a full year or something. like make the effort to call people (hate using the phone) and than go out and see people like 4 times a week. After that you get used to it. I just dont care to put myself through that, but i know i might need too at some point. I enjoy peoples company and like being around people, but have zero interest actually making any sort of effort. I go to concerts and play guitar with people but as far as meeting new people and going to clubs etc to do that, i simply dont care for it. P.S i really dont like alcohol much. lol sorry im ranting to you  cya


----------



## riptide991

No worries. See the only time I enjoyed social situations was when I'd go to parties, pre-drink and on an empty stomach and just get wasted. Otherwise I don't enjoy peoples' company hah. And I'll never do CBT, I just know I probably need it haha.


----------



## riptide991

Day 71 Wellbutrin, Day 14 Buspar Day 2 melatonin [email protected]: Today I didn't wake up with the massive melatonin headache I had yesterday. The buspar has been a bit hard on me. I still get mild nausea and it's making me much lazier. I stopped working out again because of the Buspar. My doctor says that the side effects should go away after 3 weeks so I still have some time for that. I do think though that the Buspar has made me a bit sharper. I seem to be able to pull words from my brain quicker and recall things much quicker like names etc. I'm also able to focus a bit better on Buspar. However, anhedonia has regressed a bit. It was consistently getting better with Wellbutrin alone. Though I'm assuming it's because of the tiredness caused by buspar which is supposed to go away. I still reading books, so it hasn't regressed that much. I do notice less interest in video games again. This may be the mild nausea though as when I'm laying in bed I'm feeling much better so reading isn't so bad, but sitting up at the computer I am a bit more nauseous.


----------



## thundercats

I wonder is melatonin safe and can this safely be taken together when you're on antidepressants? I also saw something on TV where they said you shouldn't take melatonin over a long time cause it could interfere with the own production.


----------



## riptide991

Yah it does interfere eventually but all that means is you will keep have to take the external source. Besides melatonin is one of those hormones that you produce less and less as you age. That's probably why old people don't sleep much hehe.


----------



## thundercats

I couldn't even get a prescription for melatonin cause the insurance wouldn't cover the cost only old people over 55 get their melatonin paid by their insurance. This is silly. As if only old people can have trouble sleeping. But I also wouldn't want to buy melatonin as a supplement without knowing if it's good quality.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Well i went to the docs i got 100 300mg Wellbutrin xl and i still got like 60 150mg so i can do a higher dose in a couple weeks. Pisses me off he didn't do nothing for my blood pressure it still 130/100 i hate having my diastolc that high it like my heart having trouble relaxing im only like a 200lb guy about tons of people are that weight or higher and dun got no bp problems maybe it just water retention or something i think i might go get a 2nd opinion soon here it been at that like for a year or 2.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Well i went to the docs i got 100 300mg Wellbutrin xl and i still got like 60 150mg so i can do a higher dose in a couple weeks. Pisses me off he didn't do nothing for my blood pressure it still 130/100 i hate having my diastolc that high it like my heart having trouble relaxing im only like a 200lb guy about tons of people are that weight or higher and dun got no bp problems maybe it just water retention or something i think i might go get a 2nd opinion soon here it been at that like for a year or 2.


Lower your sodium or increase your potassium


----------



## GotAnxiety

You know what ive been eatting lots of subway that could be the cause that **** loaded full of sodium .


----------



## GotAnxiety

Damn i got my bp over 170/120 tonight. I had one of those little cans of red bull and i went running around at 1am in the morning trying to find a liquer store for a tall can of beer haha feel pretty solid at that pressure.


----------



## riptide991

Hah my buddy who has high blood pressure can't touch caffeine or sodium. So yah redbull is going to raise it even higher. And 120 dialostic is no joke man, you could have keeled over right there.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Ya im worried my heart gonna get outta shape i felt like calling that emerencey responce number. I had trouble sleeping last night maybe it would be best to reduce my alcohol intake to one beer and drink it at the same time every day. I didn't drink it untill 8 hours passed the normal 6pm i drink it at if that had anything to do with it . Maybe after all people who drink just keep on drinking to ward of withdrawal if there some kinda additive effect in combination with wellbutrin that could be dangorous .

Caffine didn't help either i had that about 5pm. I thought it wouldn't of made to much of a difference but i guess it did.


----------



## riptide991




----------



## thundercats

GotAnxiety said:


> Damn i got my bp over 170/120 tonight. I had one of those little cans of red bull and i went running around at 1am in the morning trying to find a liquer store for a tall can of beer haha feel pretty solid at that pressure.


Seriously what you're doing is absolutely retarded. You have high BP and then you drink this red bull garbage? What are you thinking? :mum

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/23/b...ing-monster-energy-a-high-caffeine-drink.html


----------



## riptide991

Ugh when I was younger I went on drinking 2-3 large cans of that stuff for a good few months.



thundercats said:


> Seriously what you're doing is absolutely retarded. You have high BP and then you drink this red bull ****? What are you thinking? :mum
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/23/b...ing-monster-energy-a-high-caffeine-drink.html


----------



## thundercats

Most people who buy those energy drinks are stupid. I see it on the weekend when I go to the store late at night and then see those retarded teenagers buying red bull and vodka thinking they're so cool. Makes me want to vomit.


----------



## riptide991

Day 73 Wellbutrin, Day 16 Buspar: I didn't sleep much last night, I was up late listening to music and today I woke up after about 5-6 hours of sleep and have had so much energy. Been listening to a nice tiesto mix and drinking coffee. Feeling pretty good. I mean i rarely dance around in my seat this early in the morning. Usually I'd be like those zombie guys in those zombie movies.


----------



## riptide991

> *A role for oxytocin and 5-HT(1A) receptors in the prosocial effects of 3,4 methylenedioxymethamphetamine ("ecstasy").*
> 
> Thompson MR, Callaghan PD, Hunt GE, Cornish JL, McGregor IS.
> *Source*
> 
> School of Psychology, University of Sydney, Griffith Taylor Building (A18), Sydney, NSW, 2006, Australia.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> The drug 3,4 methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA; ecstasy) has a widely documented ability to increase feelings of love and closeness toward others. The present study investigated whether oxytocin, a neuropeptide involved in affiliative behavior, may play a role in this effect. A moderate (5 mg/kg, i.p.) dose of MDMA increased social interaction in male Wistar rats, primarily by increasing the amount of time rats spent lying adjacent to each other. MDMA (5 mg/kg) activated oxytocin-containing neurons in the supraoptic and paraventricular nuclei of the hypothalamus, as shown by Fos immunohistochemistry. MDMA (5 mg/kg i.p.) also increased plasma oxytocin levels and this effect was prevented by pre-treatment with the 5-HT(1A) antagonist N-[2-[4-(2-methyoxyphenyl)-1-piperazinyl]ethyl]-N-2-pyridinylcyclohexanecarboxamide maleate salt (WAY 100,635; 1 mg/kg i.p.). The oxytocin receptor antagonist tocinoic acid (20 microg, i.c.v.) had no effect on social behavior when given alone but significantly attenuated the facilitation of social interaction produced by MDMA (5 mg/kg). *The 5-HT(1A) agonist 8-hydroxy-2-(di-n-propylamino)-tetraline) (8-OH-DPAT, 0.25 mg/kg, i.p.) increased social behavior in a similar way to MDMA and this effect was also significantly attenuated by tocinoic acid. Taken together, these results suggest that oxytocin release, stimulated by MDMA through 5-HT(1A) receptors, may play a key role in the prosocial effects of MDMA and underlie some of the reinforcing effects of the drug.*


----------



## riptide991

The nausea has subsided well enough that I was able to toss in a workout today. I felt extra euphoric, may be due to the beta endorphin release 5-ht1a agonists cause.


----------



## riptide991

Ugh my sex drive was so crazy today I had like a marathon of self pleasure. Haha. I'm talking 6 times here. Going to try and not do it for a week to make up for it. Probably raised my prolactin to hell.


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Ugh my sex drive was so crazy today I had like a marathon of self pleasure. Haha. I'm talking 6 times here. Going to try and not do it for a week to make up for it. Probably raised my prolactin to hell.


----------



## riptide991

I know eh, I woke up pretty horny this morning. I'm trying to get my mind off it, that alpaca is helping.

Ugh I have an over-masturbation hang over. Yep, have had em before so I know what it is like haha. Just tired/fatigued.

Been feeling really crappy today. I don't know if it's buspar, if it's my marathon yesterday or what. I took some codeine but it isn't really doing it like oxycodone. I'd take an oxycodone but codeine had tylenol in it and so does the oxycodone and I don't want to kill my liver with it.

Ahh started to kick in! I always use opioids for ****ty days, but that doesn't happen too often. Maybe once every few months.


----------



## thundercats

where do you get oxy? i dont think i'd ever get stuff like that from a doctor.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Yeah im gonna try and go awhile without wanking it to. it like a natural body high if you don't. like the opposite of doing to it to much. Save the love juice up just do kegals  .


----------



## GotAnxiety

Got me some Serokill last night 25mg doesn't even knock me out. I like how it zombifies me reminds me of my childhood on risperidone . wake up all groggy in a bran fog .


----------



## GotAnxiety

Im not gonna lie lately I've been having obcessives thoughts of suicide and self muilation in the worst kinda way. i don't think it the wellbutrin . ive been eatting lots of canned tuna i think that what was causing it plus I'm so frigging constipated right now it like my insides are ripping apart and it hurts haha. i quitted smoking as well again like a week ago and that so hard on the brain. 

I've been depressed off canned fish befor.

On the bright side i think wellbutrin made my calve muscles bigger


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> where do you get oxy? i dont think i'd ever get stuff like that from a doctor.


I got it ages ago from dentist after wisdom teeth were pulled, she gave me a butt load cuz i got an infection from their negligence of forgetting to put me on antibiotics. So I have a stash saved over, I don't use it often so it lasts for years.



GotAnxiety said:


> I've been depressed off canned fish befor.
> 
> On the bright side i think wellbutrin made my calve muscles bigger


That is weird maybe mercury in fish doesn't go well with you.

Heh I started working out again the other day. Stupid buspar kept me off for a while due to nausea but i'm good now.

Damn have a huge headache this morning. Instead of splitting my melatonin in half for 2.5mg I was too lazy and took 5mg last night. Damn melatonin headaches suck.

and Sunday morning cartoons:


----------



## thundercats

I read the side effects of oxy and I wouldn't want to take this stuff. It has some pretty serious side effects.

Anyway, is it possible that wellbutrin at 300mg makes you lose weight even without eating clean? Either it's the wellbutrin or I didn't eat enough the last few days but since I also ate cookies and stuff like that I don't really think that it got too little calories. If this stuff made me lose some weight it wouldn't be bad.


----------



## riptide991

Yah if you read my full thread I was losing weight initially. It does make it hard to gain weight that's for sure.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Darn it i failed twice today quitting masturbating must be harder to quit then smoking :--) 

Think monday im gonna try and get buspar scripted then friday im gonna try and get viagra or clias scripted for bloodpressure medciation it may be a long shot but there studies out there saying PDE inhibitors can lower diastolic like 10 to 15 pts and increase oxytocin I'd like to post it but im on my mobile. 

My experience with viagra is that it made me more confident and eased vascular pain thur out my body. As well improved cirulation in my leg muscle and muscle tone.

That stuff truely a miracle pill at 25 bucks a pop / for a single pill larger amounts are cheaper but that wack im pretty sure they sell it under a different name for blood pressure medicine and it cheaper .


----------



## thundercats

Only initially? But I gotta lose 45lbs. Maybe if I just increase to 600 it will fasten up the process. :yay

@ GotAnxiety

You want to take viagra to lower blood pressure? Sounds like a stupid idea. I cannot imagine that someone who practices serious medicine would prescribe you viagra for this. 

I wouldn't even dare to take viagra. Sometimes I really wonder what kind of drugs people take.


----------



## GotAnxiety

[email protected]
The medication was design to be a heart pill but it had the side effect of causing erections. i don't wanna go on a rant about this but to sell the story short it about money.


----------



## riptide991

@thundercats, yah well I started eating more to try and make up for it  I don't want to lose weight, I actually want to gain more muscle. Wellbutrin has definitely been making it so easy to keep the fat off. I mean I can eat anything and won't gain fat.

@gotanxiety, won't you be walking around with a boner though? And oh yah, the Buspar I think has made me even more horny, so watch out!


----------



## GotAnxiety

@Kehcorpz

I feel excited and hyper today.

Nice i can't wait. Did buspar increase your comprehension? that exactly what i need right now if it doesn't have the side effects that are associated with the ssri. 

Hehe not quite. tolarance to that effect acures quick but the lower blood pressure remains. It would be alot easier getting a boner so that maybe troublesome. Awkward momments where you gotta hid or use something to cover.


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## riptide991

@gotanxiety, yah I'm a lot sharper and quicker with pulling the right words out of my mind. Hope you never took benzos cuz apparently this stuff doesn't work for people who previously took benzos. Although I have seen some people on forums say it did so who knows. 

But yah as far as anhedonia goes, I think it made it worse, but It could just be all the excessive masturbating(It was good last week and i wasn't going nuts with the bating). I have to quit for a few days. I didn't do it today even though I kept looking at porn lol. I got myself distracted by watching Life documentary. Although I do have more thoughts about doing things for my future. So that could be a good sign. I will see once I have recovered from the onslaught of self pleasure. I didn't expect to feel great today given how much I did it yesterday.


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## GotAnxiety

Kehcorpz

I've taking atvian a couple times but never long term same with zopiclone and alcohol.

But i can see how long term dumbing down on the brain can make a medication less effective.

Zopiclone pretty much stop lexapro working for me and took away my morning wood. Bad stuff gave me the shakes when i ran out of it after being on it for a month i had to much anxiety to even bother getting a refill back then .


----------



## riptide991

Man taking 5mg melatonin makes my mornings really bad and nauseating, I'm going to have to drop back down to 2.5mg.


----------



## GotAnxiety

I only got 10mg buspar once a day is that the right amount?


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## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> I only got 10mg buspar once a day is that the right amount?


Might work for you. But I take my 10mg in the morning at night. So a total of 20mg. Maybe he wants you doing 5mg morning and 5mg night?


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## GotAnxiety

Do they break in half? Got 30 tabs for the month. 

i asked him isn't it twice a day he said it once.

he wants me to see a psychologist he saids i have avoidant personality disorder and some other crap whatever that means.

he would to if he was drugged as a kid hehe.


----------



## baxman

^^avoidant personality disorder is no joke.bad news and quite difficult to live with.

melatonin did very little to help me sleep.everything that i have takenb that actually helps me sleep leaves me slow or groggy the next morning.then i have to take some caffeine to get up and going.what sleepmeds work out there that dont make you groggy the next morning, maybe marijuana?


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## riptide991

@gotanxiety all of the buspirone tabs are scored as far as I can see. You see a line down the center? You put the pill down on a table with the line facing upwards. Then put your thumbs with one to the left of the line and one to the right and then push down and the pill will break exactly in half.


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## GotAnxiety

Good i just notice that do these produce any kind of withdrawal sydrome if a dose is missed?

what can i expect from my first dose?


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## riptide991

I don't know I never missed a dose. I'm pretty diligent with my drugs. I have this empty pill bottle where i put all my morning drugs, i keep it by my bed. I fill it up at night while i'm taking my night time drugs. When I wake up I just tipped the bottle into my mouth all the contents comes out, and I have water nearby and bam it's done.

I don't really remember what I felt first dose, probably not much.


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## lonelyjew

Don't know if this was brought up (this is a 29 page thread), but Bupropion and Sertaline (wellburtrin and zoloft) are going to interact with each others metabolisms, which is complicated as is because the enzymes involved are different from person to person, and further complicated because of the diverse action of these two drugs, and their metabolites, who's levels will be impacted by each other.... I can't imagine that there is an easy way to predict what effects will come out in individuals when you mix two drugs that are this complicated.


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## theonlyway

lonelyjew said:


> Don't know if this was brought up (this is a 29 page thread), but Bupropion and Sertaline (wellburtrin and zoloft) are going to interact with each others metabolisms, which is complicated as is because the enzymes involved are different from person to person, and further complicated because of the diverse action of these two drugs, and their metabolites, who's levels will be impacted by each other.... I can't imagine that there is an easy way to predict what effects will come out in individuals when you mix two drugs that are this complicated.


Going on 12th to ask for WB as I've just discovered on the 7th Zoloft day that I am unable to finish. :blank Not sure if my family doc will give me more than 1 medication as I'm new to these meds;I hope he doesn't send me away to find a Pdoc...


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## thundercats

lonelyjew said:


> Don't know if this was brought up (this is a 29 page thread), but Bupropion and Sertaline (wellburtrin and zoloft) are going to interact with each others metabolisms, which is complicated as is because the enzymes involved are different from person to person, and further complicated because of the diverse action of these two drugs, and their metabolites, who's levels will be impacted by each other.... I can't imagine that there is an easy way to predict what effects will come out in individuals when you mix two drugs that are this complicated.


That's not good. I thought that wellbutrin and ssri were a legit combo. :blank

I also read that wellbutrin must not be taken apart less than 24 hours. What happens if you take 150mg in the morning and 150mg in the afternoon? Why should this be so bad?


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## riptide991

thundercats said:


> That's not good. I thought that wellbutrin and ssri were a legit combo. :blank
> 
> I also read that wellbutrin must not be taken apart less than 24 hours. What happens if you take 150mg in the morning and 150mg in the afternoon? Why should this be so bad?


Don't worry they are legit. Sertraline is primarily metabolized by CYP3A4, barely touches any others when studies were done, and bupropion by CYP2D6, CYP2C19 and maybe some other minor ones. There's is absolutely 0 chance of any interactions. People just like to scare when they do not understand something.


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## thundercats

Damn just found this here. This is scary. 
If this is a common side effect then why did my doc put me on this stuff!?
This is insane. :mum

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/1760896-post25.html


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## riptide991

Nah you're insane. Stop reading **** on the net. I can show you this:

http://www.depressionforums.org/forums/topic/15241-wellbutrin-and-concentration/#entry275623

I mean this drug helps so many with ADD.


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## riptide991

The only time Wellbutrin makes my concentration worse is if i'm constantly thinking about sex. I haven't masturbated in 2 days but now when I'm reading or doing something my mind keeps going over to sex. so that is a bit frustrating. Odd part is if I pop zopiclone I no longer think about sex constantly heh.

I just realized I took 600mg of wellbutrin today. I forgot that I took it because I was in a rush to grab the phone. Ahh well. Hope I don't blow up 

Well the 2 day streak was broken. Ugh. I guess I'll start all over starting tomorrow.

@update: hmm I feel really warm/good with the 600mg wellbutrin. It's like maybe this is the dose where it really has a big impact on dopamine. I'm going to try and convince my doc to up it to max dose next week. I still took 5mg of melatonin yesterday, I didn't have a headache but did feel a bit out of it. I think melatonin turns me into a zombie, possibly why I quit it in the past. I did sleep really well though. This time i'm really only going to do 2.5mg hehe.


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## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> I just realized I took 600mg of wellbutrin today. I forgot that I took it because I was in a rush to grab the phone. Ahh well. Hope I don't blow up


Damn. That's scary. If I were you I'd walk around in front of the ER or sit down in the car in front of the ER or directly go into the ER and then walk around there. Or you could also inform a nurse that you accidentally took 600mg wellbutrin and in case you pass out they directly know what's wrong with you.

I really wouldnt go to 600. I read that at 600 the seizure risk dramatically goes up!
600 seems to be the forbidden barrier. Don't cross it.


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## riptide991

thundercats said:


> Damn. That's scary. If I were you I'd walk around in front of the ER or sit down in the car in front of the ER or directly go into the ER and then walk around there. Or you could also inform a nurse that you accidentally took 600mg wellbutrin and in case you pass out they directly know what's wrong with you.


Hah if you read my update i'm actually feeling really good. I'm stretching now and going to hit the gym. Luckily gym is in my basement. haha


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## thundercats

I'm really a little worried about you. You should at least inform a friend or relative and tell him to call you back today every few hours and in case you dont respond call an ambulance. You shouldnt take it that easy. I dont think that in case someone gets a seizure there are any warning signs in advance. I wouldnt work out with free weights on a day where I accidentally took too much wellbutrin.


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## riptide991

Hey man, tell you what, If i'm not posting here in the next 2 hours, you can notify the German police.

Seriously man you're more likely to get a seizure from worrying too much.


Plus I think you don't understand the Wellbutrin seizure thing. There has not been a single case of seizure with someone taking brand name Wellbutrin XL. The seizures occurred with Instant release doses 600mg+. And it was in a specific group of people who were bulimic. I'm far from that. I eat eat and eat.


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## GotAnxiety

Yeah wasn't it only a 2% serizure risk at 600mg and that was only studied on the instant release. That a 98% chance of not having a seizure if im not mistaken that not to bad.


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## riptide991

Wow great workout! My strength was really through the roof. Now, I'm not saying it was the 600mg of wellbutrin. The last time I did this workout was 3 weeks ago as I couldn't workout with all the nausea that buspar was bringing me. so I mean now that the nausea is gone it may be buspar that has somehow helped my strength, who knows, or just natural progression. 

I did feel a bit of pressure in my ears as if I was on an airplane. It was weird but went away eventually. 

@gotanxiety yah it was instant release. Instant release the full amount of drug peaks at once, while XL releases tiny bits slowly, so the likeliness of getting a seizures is just not there.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Kehcorpz 
So are you noticing / getting this almost creatine like muscle pump as well?

Lately my whole body been feeling solid .


----------



## riptide991

Yah I do feel that. I think it's the DHEA it increases hehe.


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## GotAnxiety

My arm's have become so much more vascular Mr.Floppy not complaining either he starting to act more like how he was when he was 14-16.

I noticed smoking and drinking a couple beers increased that effect greatly as well. I guess those 2 can supplie the dopamine well on wellbutrin. Smoking kinda helps with restless legs and improves sleep well drinking. Drinking improves bloodflow well smoking. Just in general drinking makes me more social and makes me wanna work for some reason. But drinking without smoking makes me restless and causes insomia. Smoking appears to have calming effect upon drinkining.

Alcohol is kind of a releaser of all neruotransmitters cause it supresses the nervous system. Then the nervous system responds with a rebound to over come the effects of the supression. In conjunction with an NRI that will vastly increase the risk of sezisure dependin on the magitude of the alcohol rebound.


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## thundercats

I dont know if seizures occured with wellbutrin xl. I only know that I read about deaths caused by bupropion and death sounds a lil scary.


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## riptide991

Yah I was thinking about getting nicotine gum to try it out. It's known to release dopamine. I mean so many smokers out there that use it for years. Problem is you get addicted and without it you feel like **** hehe. 

My post workout euphoria has been lasting pretty damn long today, still feeling it.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Yeah i was reading into smoking withdraws it was saying nicotine increases dopamine by 40%. but something in the smoke not the nicotine it self has maoi actitivity and actually is slowing down the break down of dopamine. 

This can be why it so difficult to quit cause it like your going thur antidepressant withdraws as well on top of nicotine withdraws.

I've gain some weight since i quit. i think my metabolism slowed down abit.


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## lonelyjew

thundercats said:


> That's not good. I thought that wellbutrin and ssri were a legit combo. :blank
> 
> I also read that wellbutrin must not be taken apart less than 24 hours. What happens if you take 150mg in the morning and 150mg in the afternoon? Why should this be so bad?


I wasn't trying to say it wasn't, only trying to make the point that predicting what will and won't happen is very hard because these drugs are so complicated, and they'll work differently in different people. The end goal here is finding what works for a particular person while minimizing side effects, and it seems that toying around with different drugs, at different doses, at different combinations, is the only option. One person might respond well to the first drug they get, others might fail regimen after regimen, or find something that works, but causes intolerable/dangerous side effects.

Right now, unfortunately, we're a bit in the dark as to what even causes a lot of mental disorders exactly (there are theories, with evidence behind them, but nothing definitive), and we don't know exactly how these drugs fix what is wrong, so I'm sure you can appreciate the challenge. In the end though, there are people suffering, and if playing a guessing game (albeit one where we do know a lot) is the only option, then what can you do?


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## istayhome

GotAnxiety said:


> Yeah i was reading into smoking withdraws it was saying nicotine increases dopamine by 40%. but something in the smoke not the nicotine it self has maoi actitivity and actually is slowing down the break down of dopamine.
> 
> This can be why it so difficult to quit cause it like your going thur antidepressant withdraws as well on top of nicotine withdraws.
> 
> I've gain some weight since i quit. i think my metabolism slowed down a bit.


Yeah, It's the MAOI's in Tobacco combined with the nicotine that make it addictive. Nicotine alone doesn't have much of an effect nor is it addictive.


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## istayhome

thundercats said:


> I dont know if seizures occured with wellbutrin xl. I only know that I read about deaths caused by bupropion and death sounds a lil scary.


geez, I don't know why everyone get's all worked up about death. None of us has even experienced death. It's like every time someone read's about anything and death in the same sentence they get scared of that thing too. Not only is death illogically feared but anything remotely connected to it is scary too. :roll


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## riptide991

I'm feeling pretty good this morning. Probably because Obama won instead of that asshat Romney who doesn't care about people but only money. But what's really different is I woke up and started making plans for the day even though i was still in bed. I never do that.

Spent a good 3 hours raking leaves in the backyard. It's a massive backyard so it was no small task. I just kept going at a fast pace with absolutely no break. My heart rate is sitting at 96 and I finished about half an hour ago. Blood pressure is at 123/76 so that's normal.


----------



## R86

I've been lurking on this thread (along with this whole forum really) for quite a while, since I was considering adding Wellbutrin to my 100 mg Zoloft regimen. To give enough background hopefully without going all tl;dr as I usually do, I was originally diagnosed with social anxiety about 9 months ago, after ignoring it for decades until I nearly had a nervous breakdown. But lately I think avoidant personality disorder is probably a better description, with some social and generalized anxiety too, along with a few bits of OCD just to make it fun.

The reason I say "I was considering adding Wellbutrin" was because of its effect on norepinephrine, which I know is the precursor to epinephrine i.e. "fight-or-flight." Now I am no expert on pharmacobiology or brain chemistry, but I do know that I already have more than enough of both "fight" and "flight," especially the latter. So I wondered if there were some way to increase just dopamine 24/7, other than very illegal drugs.

Then I remembered I had an unopened bottle of "horny goat weed" tablets in my cabinet. Lo and behold it looks like this stuff is said to increase dopamine but not norepinephrine. I've been on it for about 3-4 days now, and I'm able to convince myself that I feel noticeably better, though it's hard to believe I'll know much before 2-4 weeks of use, just as with an SSRI. The only other drug I'm taking is 50 mg Trazodone each night to help with sleep. I have low doses of Ambien and both Xanax and Ativan available (5 mg, 0.25 mg, and 0.5 mg respectively), but I don't really find myself wanting to take them. Which is fine with me.

So does anyone have any ideas or opinions on "horny goat weed," other than merely to combat the SSRI sexual side effects? (Not that this is a bad thing either.)

Thanks in advance! (Guess this was tl;dr anyway, sorry....)


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## riptide991

@r86 I don't really believe in the whole "I have anxiety therefore I have too much norepinephrine" argument. In fact some people get anxiety because they have too little. This is why something like Effexor or Wellbutrin can help. Fight or flight is very complex and it sparks a host of hormones not just neurotransmitters. Norepinephrine is also a hormone that is released from the adrenals and created in the brain. In the brain it is created from Dopamine, so Dopamine isn't necessarily a good thing if you are trying to lower norepinephrine. Granted, most people who do get success with Wellbutrin had anxiety as a result of depression and not just anxiety on its own. There's just too many things that could happen or are happening, a very complex subject indeed. You could try something like Buspar which has a pretty significant dopamine boost. But dopamine agonists like bromocriptine etc, are going to be the only solutions aside from amphetamines. Although most amphetamines raise norepinephrine as well. Not to mention you'd have to inhibit dopamine hydroxylase to keep dopamine from converting to norepinephrine, not to mention you still wouldn't be in control of the metabolism process to DOPAC. 

And last but not least, Zoloft in doses 200mg + has been known to increase dopamine in the nucleus accumbens. I used to take 200mg Zoloft and 45mg remeron and it was the best combo for me but pooped out eventually. 


As far as horny goat weed goes. I don't really want to ruin your fun, but lets just say it did nothing for me. And I don't think it touches dopamine. But if something works don't quit on someone elses experience.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Buspar kinda makes me feel dopey or stoned. But i took 100mg of seroquel as well the night befor it kinda tanked my whole day . but there was some kinda synergy with the buspar i took in the evening. Seroquel bit of an overkill cause of it long halflife maybe they can make a prodrug outta it metabolite and shorten it one day.

Today i thought id try 450mg of wellbutrin. i gotta say at this doses it kinda feels like it acting as a greater stimulate . I gotta give my self a break im like numb down there.

i don't think i really need viagra on this stuff but it kinda acts like it is on it own. Ill try 450mg for abit i wanna see if it increases my bloodpressure. I brought 120 dollar bloodpressure machine it saids my bp 120/80 at home but when i check it at the pharmercy its always like 145/95+ give or take. Maybe it just my anxiety manifesting in phyisical form .

i'd still like to get me some viagra tho hehe it would be a interesting combination. That stuff so good for blood pressure they use it for heart failure.


----------



## riptide991

@gotanxiety yah I'd try 450mg of wellbutrin but it's damn expensive. Especially since you have to get 30 300mg pills and 30 150mg pills separately for the month. When I had insurance it was like 4 bucks but now it's 50 just for the 30 300mg ones. Buspar is expensive too as in Canada they only have 10mg pills approved. So I have to buy 60 if I'm taking 10mg twice a day. And that brings it to about 40 bucks, and that's generic!

Yah the sex drive has been crazy, I managed to ignore it for the most part today by keeping really busy! hehe

I have a pretty good blood pressure machine. It works really well as it's pretty much dead on with what I would get at a shoppers drug mart here with those big machines.


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## GotAnxiety

Man u got any sources of income coming in? Social assistance can pay for your med's. its only the stuff under patent they don't cover. It not to bad but im trying to get off them and start working my self.

yeah man i know it crazy insane 120 bucks for 600mg of wellbutrin. cost 20 for one month of buspar at 10mg what a joke. The pill doesn't feel like it does much yet . Seroquel was the only cheap one at 12bucks for 30 25mg.

None of these make me wanna work like alcohol tho.


----------



## riptide991

Nah I'm in Canada. In order to get assistance you need to do some pretty elaborate things. I have money saved up as I worked as an engineer for many years at a really high wage, but I just hate eating up savings.

I may try to apply it's just they ask for so much info like parents income and their drug plans from their work, it's just ridiculous.


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## GotAnxiety

Yeah if you got any kinda money they won't help you . You gotta hit rock bottom and lie to get on pretty much and having lots of docters medical notes help a lot. My brain got mess off stoping effexor and alcohol cold turkey i guess i coulda died.

Befor that i was working going to school. but that one thing took me down. that winter felt like hell was freezing over.


----------



## riptide991

Yah plus I quit my job and don't want one, they will probably expect me to be looking for one hehe.

I just want to get my mind in order before pursuing anything else. I heard Effexor withdrawal is bad even if you taper, and you did cold turkey wow hehe


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## GotAnxiety

Well i had to effexor turned me into a raging alcoholic i lost 40lb in one month from drinking. effexor made me burn thur my funds of 1600 bucks in a manic way the money ran out and i had a hangover so bad well on effexor it turned into some excited delirium bull **** i went crazy but at first i turned into a genius it was kinda funny and sad.

The hangover was so bad i thought the effexor was reinforcing it so i discontinue it. That might of been a big mistake i was only on it for a couple weeks tho. 

But the sad thing was. i was at the hospital 4 days into it and i didn't commit my self. wish i had because shortly after that my condition deteriorated . Wish i had some seroquel back then.

Incidents like that could be why the drug has a higher suicide rate you never know.


----------



## R86

@kehcorpz: Thanks for the ideas, I figured that you and some of the others here who have studied all this might be able to educate me. Interesting that norepinephrine isn't necessarily the kiss of death, even for anxiety. My only concern is anything that would hinder sleep, since my initial crisis started with a period of about a week in which I couldn't sleep more than 1-2 hours a night, while trying to hold down a teaching job. It took Ambien to get my sleep back under control. Needless to say I don't want to go through that again.

I guess I'll never know unless I try it, whether it's Wellbutrin or an SNRI or horny goat weed. If I've learned one thing from lurking here it's that what works for one person will not work for another, and getting the symptoms medicated correctly is like trying to hit one's own highly individual moving target. Until the drug of choice poops out and you need to start all over again.

I see this bottle of horny goat weed tablets will last me the rest of the month, so I figure I'll keep taking it as long as I can tolerate it or until the bottle runs out, whichever comes first.

Thanks again, and I'll probably keep lurking here.


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## riptide991

So yesterday I couldn't find the flax meal I always buy so opted for fish oil since it was cheap Costco brand 15 bucks for 360 1000mg capsules. Took it yesterday and felt pretty bad and couldn't sleep. This morning felt great and took fish oil again and once again I started feeling crappy. It seems to always have been an issue for me, I just forgot. Every time I take fish oil I get more depressed. I must have some issue with processing it, who knows.


----------



## GotAnxiety

@kehcorpz are you noticing anything from the buspar yet? It's kind of an expensive pill. Specially if it don't work well Compared to how cheap benzo's are. But i guess they got a monopoly being the only one of it kind in its class hehe. Must be good for how expensive it is.


----------



## riptide991

I think the Buspar is definitely helping the wellbutrin. It's definitely made me more energetic. I'm also much calmer and relaxed. I think it has even more potential at a higher dose since typically you want 40mg-60mg/day and I'm taking 20mg/day. It's just even if it works amazingly, I'd hate to see how expensive 60mg/day is since in Canada they only come in 10mg pills. That would be a lot of pills.

I was actually thinking about Trazodone. It has a stronger effect on 5-ht1a than buspar does but it comes with some additional advantages like antagonism at 5-ht2c, 2a. It would probably be much cheaper. I will do more research and this upcoming Wednesday I'm going to ask my doctor about it.

P.S if someone who knows about trazadone can give some input it would be appreciated.


----------



## riptide991

I don't think my doctor will go for it, but I think I'm going to try and push a MAOI. Maybe start off with something like Nardil and if he argues no, then I can say "well how about selegiline since it only does MAO-B and not A, it's much safer. I basically do want Selegiline over nardil but have to try something more hardcore so that when I mention selegiline it seems easier to swallow for him. I have been reading amazing results from people using Selegiline. Particularly people are saying it's amazing on memory.


----------



## R86

Well, I know a _little_ about trazodone, and have taken 50 mg each night for probably about 9 months. I know it's an old tried-and-true drug and is generally considered safe. The use as a sleep aid is off-label but apparently at least as popular as its on-label (?) use as an antidepressant.

I don't really know anything about how it works, but it has a rather short half-life by my memory -- maybe about 9 hours. As I recall it doesn't alter sleep architecture like benzos do. I have used it with small doses of Xanax, Ativan, or Ambien, and for me all three are compatible, with both trazodone and the Zoloft.

I have sometimes taken 100 mg rather than 50, just to see what would happen. To be honest I noticed very little difference. Since insomnia is at least as great a concern for me as the anxiety / avoidance, I'm glad to have something that will get me to sleep 98% of the time without needing anything else. My only complaint is that I sometimes get a period of wakefulness after about 6 hours (I think they call this "redistribution" phase?), which is not all that bad as I can still function on 5-6 hours of sleep. Sometimes while I'm lying there during this period I suddenly conk out, and before I know it, it's 60-90 minutes later! 

*tl;dr* Trazodone is an old and safe drug, used at 50-100 mg off-label for sleep and at higher doses for depression, but to be honest I usually hear about it being used for sleep.


----------



## riptide991

@r86 yah I'm reading it has no efficacy for depression/anxiety, just great for sleep. I don't really have trouble sleeping. And Yah I sometimes go 6 hours of sleep and I'm fine, I think because of the welbutrin/buspar. 

I'm reading about selegiline and I really want to convince my doc to let me try it. It would be so much cheaper. Wellbutrin XL is only brand name here and buspar is beyond expensive. And Selegiline you only need 5mg. I just need to figure out how I could convince him. Maybe ask for amphetamines first? He will probably flip out and then I'll go "ok fine how about Selegiline" lol.


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## R86

I have never heard of that drug -- my two thoughts on looking it up were that it'd probably make me a paranoid wreck (it almost seems that my brain chemistry is the opposite of yours in some ways), and that it's the first drug I've seen containing an alkyne functional group (except for some antitumor agents that are completely different beasts).

Before posting here, I did some research on whether there are any selective dopamine reuptake inhibitors. The answer is yes, but it seems they are all either on trial, failed during trial, or illegal (except for one which was described as "technically legal"). I realize there's also sex, but this isn't exactly something that you can keep a certain blood level of. 

Hence my trying the horny goat weed, which so far I'm doing fine on. I wonder whether this will turn out to be a good idea and/or any better than St. John's wort, or whether both are pretty much sugar pills. Time will tell I guess.


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## riptide991

Yah dopamine agonists are the closest. The problem with sex is once you orgasm your prolactin goes up and dopamine goes down


----------



## jim_morrison

kehcorpz said:


> I was actually thinking about Trazodone. It has a stronger effect on 5-ht1a than buspar does but it comes with some additional advantages like antagonism at 5-ht2c, 2a. It would probably be much cheaper. I will do more research and this upcoming Wednesday I'm going to ask my doctor about it.
> 
> P.S if someone who knows about trazadone can give some input it would be appreciated.


Trazodones active metabolite mCPP is a potent 5-HT2c agonist so it would likely interfere with 5-HT2c blockade from Trazodone itself.



kehcorpz said:


> I think the Buspar is definitely helping the wellbutrin. It's definitely made me more energetic. I'm also much calmer and relaxed. I think it has even more potential at a higher dose since typically you want 40mg-60mg/day and I'm taking 20mg/day.


May I ask if you've ever suffered from TMJ or Bruxism and if so, has Buspar helped to reduce symptoms? 
I ask because I've heard that Buspar can help these issues.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Alright i got computer access right now i can bang out some studies on Viagra.

Cardiovascular safety of sildenafil citrate (Viagra): an updated perspective.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17011375

Effects of sildenafil citrate (viagra) on blood pressure in normotensive and hypertensive men.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11992853

Sildenafil (Viagra) induces neurogenesis and promotes functional recovery after stroke in rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12411660

PDE5 inhibition with sildenafil improves left ventricular diastolic function, cardiac geometry, and clinical status in patients with stable systolic heart failure
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21036891

Supreme Court of Canada rules Pfizer's Viagra patent is invalid

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/...izer+Viagra+patent+invalid/7518320/story.html

So hopefully the price will be dropping soon.


----------



## riptide991

jim_morrison said:


> Trazodones active metabolite mCPP is a potent 5-HT2c agonist so it would likely interfere with 5-HT2c blockade from Trazodone itself.
> 
> May I ask if you've ever suffered from TMJ or Bruxism and if so, has Buspar helped to reduce symptoms?
> I ask because I've heard that Buspar can help these issues.


Well, I've always had a tight jaw when going to sleep. It seems it was always tense and buspar did help relieve that as it doesn't bother me much these days.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Alright i got computer access right now i can bang out some studies on Viagra.
> 
> Cardiovascular safety of sildenafil citrate (Viagra): an updated perspective.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17011375
> 
> Effects of sildenafil citrate (viagra) on blood pressure in normotensive and hypertensive men.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11992853
> 
> Sildenafil (Viagra) induces neurogenesis and promotes functional recovery after stroke in rats.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12411660
> 
> PDE5 inhibition with sildenafil improves left ventricular diastolic function, cardiac geometry, and clinical status in patients with stable systolic heart failure
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21036891
> 
> Supreme Court of Canada rules Pfizer's Viagra patent is invalid
> 
> http://www.vancouversun.com/health/...izer+Viagra+patent+invalid/7518320/story.html
> 
> So hopefully the price will be dropping the price soon.


Hah how expensive is it? 30 a pill?


----------



## GotAnxiety

^^Kepcorpz

This was at walmart.
When i brought it i asked for just one they said 25$ i was like wtf then i ask how much for the whole 4 60$. so maybe it 10 or 8 for 100$. you get 100mg pills you can cut them up into 25mg or 50mg thats all you really need. 100mg is kinda overkill.

Im not to sure on the amount they can give ya. i had this little tablet thing with only 4 pills in it. but they come in 25mg 50mg 100mg strengths. i dunno why they do that. They should just give ya 30 pills for that price.


----------



## riptide991

ahh damn that's an expensive pill.

I started taking my buspar in the morning at around 8-9am and then again at 2pm. When I take my 2pm dose I become really really warm and relaxed. I guess because the first dose is still not gone. I stopped taking it at night as I read studies it messes with REM. I think it's actually very good for anxiety. I don't feel awkward around people. I mean I can sit in comfortable silence while before if it got silent I'd really start feeling awkward. 

But yah Anhedonia is more important to me, so this is why I am thinking of trying a MAOI. I'm still doing research on this stuff, I think it would also save me money in the long run. My guess is I'd have to try buspar at 40mg to really get its effect and that would be 80 dollars for 1 month plus 50 for Wellbutrin XL.

Eh for the hell of it I just popped a 3rd buspar making it 30mg. I wonder what will happen. 

Oh wow 40 minutes later and I'm hyperfocused.


----------



## ricca91

If anhedonia is your main issue and you want to try selegiline, I think it's a very good choice. It is highly dopaminergic. However you should keep an eye on irritability (but well, being irritable is a sign that anhedonia is going away). Also, it can give you bad insomnia. Otherwise, it's a really good drug and has the benefit of being highly antioxidant. I will try it one day.

Also, I read that you are constantly horny on wellbutrin. Be prepared with a ton of condoms (or tissues) because selegiline will shoot (no pun intended) your libido through the roof!

Cheers!


----------



## riptide991

ricca91 said:


> If anhedonia is your main issue and you want to try selegiline, I think it's a very good choice. It is highly dopaminergic. However you should keep an eye on irritability (but well, being irritable is a sign that anhedonia is going away). Also, it can give you bad insomnia. Otherwise, it's a really good drug and has the benefit of being highly antioxidant. I will try it one day.
> 
> Also, I read that you are constantly horny on wellbutrin. Be prepared with a ton of condoms (or tissues) because selegiline will shoot (no pun intended) your libido through the roof!
> 
> Cheers!


Hmm yah I'm just scared with the insomnia that people are reporting on selegiline. They are getting like 3 hours of sleep even with sleep aids. But people are also reporting it's amazing for memory. Some claiming it gives them photographic memory.

Hey I bought 20 Kleenex boxes at Costco this week, should last me till next week.


----------



## GotAnxiety

I've notice when i moved up to 450mg of wellbutrin and 10mg buspar. i"ve been more angriers specially when drinking a couple beer's and haven't been getting as drunk as just on 300mg wellbutrin by itself. Possibility buspar increases alcohol tolarance?

Think my OCD kinda been flaring up a bit ever since discontinuing the SSRI i guess that is too be expected since they can cause downregulation. I've been thinking about readding the SSRI to see what kinda effect would a high dose of wellbutrin would have on it. Befor i started taking the SSRI in the first place i went 4 month's without. i was experiencing feeling's of love i wonder how long does that take to return after SSRI use. or is that just a question of not wanking to much hehe.


----------



## ricca91

kehcorpz said:


> Hmm yah I'm just scared with the insomnia that people are reporting on selegiline. They are getting like 3 hours of sleep even with sleep aids. But people are also reporting it's amazing for memory. Some claiming it gives them photographic memory.
> 
> Hey I bought 20 Kleenex boxes at Costco this week, should last me till next week.


Yes, insomnia seems to be a problem with selegiline, but well, the only way to know is by trying it... However I think that the benefits will largely outweigh the side effects, please keep us posted!


----------



## riptide991

ricca91 said:


> Yes, insomnia seems to be a problem with selegiline, but well, the only way to know is by trying it... However I think that the benefits will largely outweigh the side effects, please keep us posted!


Yah I'm just being very careful to choose the right one. I don't even know if my doc will go for it. But he seems to get mad that I keep switching meds. I'd probably have to find another psychiatrist, it's just hard to get one around here. I couldn't even get a family doctor cuz no one is accepting. Free health care eh...



> Clinical improvement in affective symptoms correlates best with a down regulation of b-adrenergic, a2-adrenergic, and 5-HT2 receptors seen after two weeks. This effect is observed with nonselective MAOIs and selective MAO-A inhibitors, but only with high (nonselective) dosages of the MAO-B inhibitor deprenyl (28,76). Indeed, low-dose deprenyl produces only a marginal antidepressant response (88). This suggests a more central role for MAO-A (rather than MAO-B) in the treatment of depression.


see selegiline is MAO-B only unless used in very high doses which I would never get. Or if used in transdermal which isn't even available in Canada.


----------



## ricca91

kehcorpz said:


> Yah I'm just being very careful to choose the right one. I don't even know if my doc will go for it. But he seems to get mad that I keep switching meds. I'd probably have to find another psychiatrist, it's just hard to get one around here. I couldn't even get a family doctor cuz no one is accepting. Free health care eh...
> 
> see selegiline is MAO-B only unless used in very high doses which I would never get. Or if used in transdermal which isn't even available in Canada.


I know the hassle... Unfortunately most docs are close minded and just hearing the word MAOI gives them a hypertensive crysis.

Here where I live selegiline is approved for Parkinson's and therefore is not considered a psych med, and almost every med which isn't scheduled as psychiatric is virtually OTC (it's technically Rx only, but it's practically behind the counter, you just ask for it and they give it to you). One reason why I'm doing "OK" is because I have so many meds available without Rx and can use them as needed or as a regular treatment, med school and personal research of course helps with choosing the right ones haha.

Seems like docs are not comfortable with hearing patient's suggestions, they just have their old and outdated pharm book and probably pubmed is semi-unknown to them.

As a last resort, selegiline can be bought online as a "longevity supplement", as you know, doses below or equal to 5 mg are MAO-B selective, while at higher doses and especially arriving at the 10 mg mark it becomes unselective.

I am a prophet of self medication and self experimentation, when done with knowledge and safety, so I'd say to go with it anyways...


----------



## thundercats

Maybe just a coincidence but yesterday and today I had twitching muscles. Yesterday a muscle in my hand was twitching for a while and I could see it twitching under the skin and today a have some twitching on the quad near the knee. Could this be a side effect of wellbutrin? :um


----------



## riptide991

@ricca yah I'll use that as a last resort. Hate getting stuff like that online since there's so many counterfeits out there. 

@thundercats I think it's transient, I had an increase in anxiety and just weird feeling at first but it went away.


So yah I decided I'm not gonna stick with the Buspar. The one thing I love about the Buspar is I have definitely noticed my memory has gotten pretty damn good. I can recall things that I haven't even thought about for years. It's great. It also has a mild euphoric feeling right after I take it. But overall after that feeling passes I'm kind of irritable during the day. Especially recently. I mean I don't snap but inside I'm getting really annoyed and start biting my lower lip. It has also made my anhedonia worse it seems. At first it was better but now my interests that were coming back with wellbutrin have disappeared again. I could try wellbutrin at 450mg but I'm really going to push a MAOI to my doctor. It will be a battle indeed. Who knows I may leave there with yet another 1st line treatment combo. We shall see how things go on Wednesday. For now I'll just use up the rest of the buspirone at high doses as it gives a nice euphoria for a bit.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Gay viagra only comes in packs of 4 in canada for 60 bucks. i wonder if cialis is any cheaper or different. Apparently cialis has a 36 hr half-life viagra only got a 4 hr half-life. Sure is expensive for that stuff.


----------



## thundercats

@ kehcorpz

Werent you feeling good on 300? Why not simply continue with wellbutrin alone or try wellbutrin + ssri. How about wellbutrin + prozac or zoloft or mirtazapin or even effexor?
I think you're switching meds too quickly. Maybe you also expect too much. How do you wanna know if the feeling on wellbutrin might not be the best you can get? I also wouldnt want to take a maoi and then have to watch everything I eat. No way.


----------



## baxman

keycorps-what exactly do you wish to accomplish with these meds?what do you want them to do for you?do you want them to make you more social and outgoing?

how is your anhedonia?it seems like you have it almost completely wiped out.....?


----------



## jim_morrison

kehcorpz said:


> Hmm yah I'm just scared with the insomnia that people are reporting on selegiline. They are getting like 3 hours of sleep even with sleep aids. But people are also reporting it's amazing for memory. Some claiming it gives them photographic memory.


Low dose Amisulpride could also potentially help with anhedonia with less chance of irritability and insomnia I'd assume.
It tends to be used at low doses to target the negative symptoms of schiz such as mood blunting, apathy and social withdrawal.
I recall the user Oioioi123 having especially good success with it (edit, found post);



Oioioi123 said:


> I'm not but I HAVE and it's probably my 2nd favorite med next to Nardil. Not only did it cut down on anxiety but it actually helped with energy motivation and dysthymia. It's an excellent excellent med way too often overlooked, take only in small doses 25-50mg, raises dopamine. I'm really surprised more people here don't use it to be Honest. When I say dysthymia I'm not sure if that's the correct wording but to explain it, I just felt happier and I didn't have that monotone drained voice kinda thing, I actually felt happy and passionate when I talked because I actually had an interest to talk to people not just because I had to. I found instea of quickly getting to the point and ending the convo or let them talk I would find myself doing the talking and it quit surprised myself. It's quick acting to so sometimes I'll still take 50mg with Nardil somedays as a social an dopamine booster. It's something I'll always have on hand


http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...-amisulpride-regularly-173687/#post1059796733


----------



## riptide991

@thundercats because I have been on it for a while now and have not gotten what I got originally with Zoloft/remeron. I think I need to try a drug that works completely differently. Reuptake inhibitors may not work for a lot of people who don't actually produce the neurotransmitters in sufficient amount. So If that's the case with me the reuptake inhibitor will do very little if there's nothing to block from reuptake. I think part of why Remeron worked is because it's known to actually cause a release of neurotransmitters and works completely different. And I may not have to change my diet if I get moclobemide at 600-900mg/day. It really depends where the discussion goes.

@baxman my anhedonia only got a bit better with Wellbutrin. This meant I liked gaming again and even started reading at some point. I think Buspar took both away though. So I'm going to be quitting that. But when I truly do not have anhedonia one of my favourite things in the world is programming and learning technology. Right now I get 0 reward from doing it. That's ultimately what I want to restore. Video games are an easier way to get a reward I would imagine different pathways are triggered.

@jim_morrison it sounds interesting but the prolactin thing is really scary. Which I find it odd if it increases dopamine, you would think it would lower prolactin but it seems to increase even at low doses. It would be something I could try with my doctor if he doesn't go for the MAOIs. Ultimately I want to try Nardil. If my doctor doesn't want to get me good treatment then I will have no choice but to start treating myself again. That's how I became addicted to marijuana in the first place. I didn't want to see a doctor because I knew it would be a pain in the ***, and lo and behold it's a pain in the ***.



> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15665803
> 
> *CONCLUSION: *
> 
> Even low doses of amisulpride used as an augmentation to antidepressant treatment, benzodiazepines or in monotherapy seem to be associated with hyperprolactinemia. The co-medication of antidepressants and benzodiazepines can potentially increase intensity of prolactinemia


Oh it's not even approved in Canada nor the U.S. So that's out of the question anyways hah.


----------



## thundercats

> Reuptake inhibitors may not work for a lot of people who don't actually produce the neurotransmitters in sufficient amount. So If that's the case with me the reuptake inhibitor will do very little if there's nothing to block from reuptake.


That's kinda scary. Maybe that's why I don't feel any effect from wellbutrin. But I also got no effect from mirtazapin.

But I still have this weird tingling in my leg muscles which feels as if something is crawling under the skin. The only explanation I see for this is that it's caused by wellbutrin and if it's caused by wellbutrin then I don't think that these kinds of side effects are a good sign. If this crap gets worse then I'll have to get off it. :mum


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> That's kinda scary. Maybe that's why I don't feel any effect from wellbutrin. But I also got no effect from mirtazapin.
> 
> But I still have this weird tingling in my leg muscles which feels as if something is crawling under the skin. The only explanation I see for this is that it's caused by wellbutrin and if it's caused by wellbutrin then I don't think that these kinds of side effects are a good sign. If this crap gets worse then I'll have to get off it. :mum


Yah and even if you are producing it, you may have too much mao breaking it down. There's way too many variables. I am ready to try a MAOI. I don't care about the diet, I can live with it. Besides yogurt and cottage cheese is fine.

Honestly you haven't given wellbutrin enough time. It did some for me but just not enough. I'd go 450 but too expensive.


----------



## GotAnxiety

thundercats said:


> That's kinda scary. Maybe that's why I don't feel any effect from wellbutrin. But I also got no effect from mirtazapin.
> 
> But I still have this weird tingling in my leg muscles which feels as if something is crawling under the skin. The only explanation I see for this is that it's caused by wellbutrin and if it's caused by wellbutrin then I don't think that these kinds of side effects are a good sign. If this crap gets worse then I'll have to get off it. :mum


You get that too eh. i get that side effect all the time even when im not on wellbutrin hehe.

i wonder if the buspar making me angry i was in such a bad mood last night i seroquel my self too sleep. now i woke up feeling good. it coulda been the low amount of caffeine i had i just dunno.


----------



## thundercats

I read the nardil warnings once and it was ridiculous. You couldn't even eat chocolate and stuff like that and have to weigh everything.


----------



## riptide991

Weigh everything? What are you talking about? The diet restrictions are not as bad as they say. You can get away with some stuff, just have to watch out for the aged foods. Mozarella cheese has been shown to be fine. You can always test your tolerances by having a bit of something and then adding a bit more and if you start to get a headache, you can't eat it.


----------



## thundercats

What I read was about parnate. It had all kinds of foods where you were only allowed to eat ridiculous amounts, like 20 grams. It was insane. You couldn't even go to the bakery and buy something sweet which contains chocolate or nuts cause you don't know how many grams of chocolate and nuts are in there. :roll
Maybe you can get away with more in reality but I wouldn't want to try it. What if you get a hypertensive crisis? This sounds pretty scary.


----------



## riptide991

Well, to me getting out of depression is more important than a few foods that give my taste buds a nice feeling for a few seconds. See I've been doing bodybuilding for years and have already been pretty strict with food. I barely ever eat anything bad. I mean most of my meals consist of buckwheat, navy beans, etc.. 

You need to make sacrifices if you hope to get better.


----------



## thundercats

Are you sure you can still eat those beans when on a maoi?


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> Are you sure you can still eat those beans when on a maoi?


Probably not because they contain a lot of L-tryptophan, but I'd try a bit to see how I react and keep adding more every day until I do react somehow. Otherwise I'm fine with replacing it with chick peas, black beans, you name it.


----------



## GotAnxiety

@Kehcorpz why not just readd the remeron doesn't that hit a lot of the recepters you wanna hit? or is that a poor drug chose i still haven't tried it yet. i cringe at the thought of being on a long term sleep med cause it might be difficult coming off.


----------



## riptide991

Because Remeron pooped out on me, I doubt it would work a second time. I still have a bunch left over and I have used it to get to sleep. Although once you get used to it it doesn't make you so sleepy. I wanted to try 60mg dose but my doc wasn't really keen on it. He followed everything by the book. I did try the 60 and felt a bit better but didn't have enough pills to go for a good trial.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Im thinking about asking the doc for it , i think i found a doc that will write me a script for whatever i want he keeps on asking me do you want anything else hehe. Must be why that guy has so much bussiness. he doesn't even use computers. 

All hard hitting antihistimines poop out after awhile. you just talking about the sleep or the antidepressant quality as well? How was withdrawing off of remeron any trouble?


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Im thinking about asking the doc for it , i think i found a doc that will write me a script for whatever i want he keeps on asking me do you want anything else hehe. Must be why that guy has so much bussiness. he doesn't even use computers.
> 
> All hard hitting antihistimines poop out after awhile. you just talking about the sleep or the antidepressant quality as well? How was withdrawing off of remeron any trouble?


It pooped out for antidepressant effect. The sleep quality remained, I just wasn't so fatigued during day like in the beginning. But yah I went off it and started up zopiclone for sleep so never experienced any problems.


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Probably not because they contain a lot of L-tryptophan, but I'd try a bit to see how I react and keep adding more every day until I do react somehow. Otherwise I'm fine with replacing it with chick peas, black beans, you name it.


I didnt know that tryptophan is also a problem when you take maoi. This means you also couldn't take protein powder. I also don't think that you could take supplements safely without knowing if it interacts with the maoi. 
I have spirulina and wheat grass capsules at home but I haven't been taking them since I went on ADs cause I worried if there might be an interaction. That's what sucks about supplements you never know if there are interactions or not.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I didnt know that tryptophan is also a problem when you take maoi. This means you also couldn't take protein powder. I also don't think that you could take supplements safely without knowing if it interacts with the maoi.
> I have spirulina and wheat grass capsules at home but I haven't been taking them since I went on ADs cause I worried if there might be an interaction. That's what sucks about supplements you never know if there are interactions or not.


You can take complete protein. Protein powder may be bad for other reasons as they are typically made from milk and may contain tyramine. But navy beans in particular have complete protein plus l-tryptophan on its own as an amino acid. Complete protein is fine though.

Yah MAOIs aren't for the faint hearted though. Although I think you would do well because you'd be so paranoid you'd follow the diet to the letter hehe.


----------



## thundercats

But I'd be scared all the time. This wouldn't work for me.
Also not being able to eat what I want would make me even more depressed.
I need my wine and all this stuff.


----------



## riptide991

Yah you can't drink wine on it because wine is aged. 

Man I took 60mg of buspar and now I'm getting those famous brain zaps people are talking about. It feels soooo weird. And I'm feeling sick to my stomach too. Popped an advil.


----------



## thundercats

How does it feel? Does it hurt? This sounds scary.


----------



## riptide991

It's gone now. It doesn't hurt just feels like you're going to faint or something, this weird sensation. Hard to explain hehe.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Was it pain behind the eye's? i think I've might of been getting buspar induce panic attacks just annoying if anything. Or it coulda been that viagra i mixed with l-arginine heh maybe that why they say not to mix those cause it can cause blindness. They should just say the reason why not to mix it... Not say just don't cause that will make someone wanna do it.


----------



## whattothink

It's interesting how people complain that SSRI's simply stop working for them. I've also had this problem and after increasing the dose, it began working again. I recently brought this topic up with my psychiatrist who completely dismissed it as not possible. He said that these drugs, 'don't stop working' and that my depression/anxiety likely increased in severity rendering the drug ineffective. I disagree with that, but I don't know if there's any research to support it. Obviously a trained psychiatrist would be privy to this sort of thing more than me, but I still think he's wrong.


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> Was it pain behind the eye's? i think I've might of been getting buspar induce panic attacks just annoying if anything. Or it coulda been that viagra i mixed with l-arginine heh maybe that why they say not to mix those cause it can cause blindness. They should just say the reason why not to mix it... Not say just don't cause that will make someone wanna do it.


Nah not a pain, literally I'd shift my eyes to the right and this jolt of like electricity came across my entire body. Almost like for that second you lose balance or something, it's super hard to explain. I never got it when people on forums mentioned it. Take 60mg of buspar like I did and you will know lol. I just read something yesterday where NO actually causes brain degeneration in people. And well L-arginine increases NO and so does Viagra, so there you go, could explain your pain 



whattothink said:


> It's interesting how people complain that SSRI's simply stop working for them. I've also had this problem and after increasing the dose, it began working again. I recently brought this topic up with my psychiatrist who completely dismissed it as not possible. He said that these drugs, 'don't stop working' and that my depression/anxiety likely increased in severity rendering the drug ineffective. I disagree with that, but I don't know if there's any research to support it. Obviously a trained psychiatrist would be privy to this sort of thing more than me, but I still think he's wrong.


Yah well my psychiatrist acknowledges they poop out but he says they usually do so after a year or so, but he was confused when my Zoloft/remeron pooped out after only a few months. He never argued with it though because I know best how I feel.

hmm, so today is my first day without Buspar. I think it raises dopamine too much in prefrontal cortex. I read an article on pubmed about anhedonia and how it's hypothesized to be due to an imbalanced of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex and nucleus accumbens. There's not enough in the nucleus and too much in the prefrontal.


----------



## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> Yah well my psychiatrist acknowledges they poop out but he says they usually do so after a year or so, but he was confused when my Zoloft/remeron pooped out after only a few months. He never argued with it though because I know best how I feel.


Ugh, I was so happy with my psychiatrist until she recommended I try taking an SSRI which had already failed me in the past. She said, "I find that when a person tries an SSRI after it poops out for them, they are much more successful with it the second time around."

Fortunately she listened to me and accepted my refusal to take an SSRI again. In the end she was even reasonable and listened to the med recommendations I had for myself. So I'm still happy with her.

No More damn SSRI's! I've tried them all, in combination with everything else. SSRI+Me=No good


----------



## riptide991

istayhome said:


> Ugh, I was so happy with my psychiatrist until she recommended I try taking an SSRI which had already failed me in the past. She said, "I find that when a person tries an SSRI after it poops out for them, they are much more successful with it the second time around."
> 
> Fortunately she listened to me and accepted my refusal to take an SSRI again. In the end she was even reasonable and listened to the med recommendations I had for myself. So I'm still happy with her.
> 
> No More damn SSRI's! I've tried them all, in combination with everything else. SSRI+Me=No good


While it may not be so with SSRIs. I have been reading about this moclobemide drug and peoples' experiences. When this stuff does work it tends to poop out quickly for people. Usually within 12 weeks, some are lucky and it doesn't. But those who had it poop out will go and try SSRIs and other things and when they go back to moclobemide it starts working again and lasts longer. Maybe the SSRIs do some serious downregulation that is necessary for moclobemide, who knows.


----------



## istayhome

^^Interesting stuff.

I just hate that I have tried every single SSRI; the all either aggravate anxiety or do nothing. I give them a real go of 8 or more weeks. Several Psychiatrists then tell me to try another SSRI saying that this time it will work miraculously. 

I'm on Lamictal and Wellbutrin now which so far is the best Antidepressant combo I have ever been on. I don't have bipolar; Lamictal seems to be working as a good Antidepressant for unipolar depression, at least for me. Adding the Wellbutrin has really made a powerful difference. I think I'm actually finally on the right track!

Maybe soon I'll be on here less. Disappeared into the real world.


----------



## riptide991

How much wellbutrin are you taking?

Oh and does Lamactil make you stupider? I just don't know if inhibiting glutamate release is good for the wit.


----------



## baxman

amilsulpride sounds very interesting.i cannot imagine looking forward to talking people, being highly motivated etc etc.im in america but ill find a way to get it.

keycorps-gotcha, same problem here, i get 0 reward from doing most things.exercise is the only thing that seems to reward me for the most part.


----------



## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> How much wellbutrin are you taking?
> 
> Oh and does Lamactil make you stupider? I just don't know if inhibiting glutamate release is good for the wit.


I just augmented the Lamictal with Wellbutrin; 150 mg started a week ago. I've taken it in the past in conjunction with Zoloft but had no positive effects.

If anything the Lamictal has made me more witty. Everyone has actually noticed that my joking and quick sense of humor has returned. I feel that my mind is a bit quicker, that is probably due to a lifting of depression and being able to think more clearly/quicker.


----------



## riptide991

istayhome said:


> I just augmented the Lamictal with Wellbutrin; 150 mg started a week ago. I've taken it in the past in conjunction with Zoloft but had no positive effects.
> 
> If anything the Lamictal has made me more witty. Everyone has actually noticed that my joking and quick sense of humor has returned. I feel that my mind is a bit quicker, that is probably due to a lifting of depression and being able to think more clearly/quicker.


Ahh, Lamactil is one of those drugs that I don't want to touch because it builds up in your skin and eyes. Apparently it has an impact on collagen too. It's also why you can get skin diseases on it. But yah I mean one thing I still got is my looks and when I come out of the depression/anhedonia I want to catch up on all the banging I missed out on lol. If lamictal screws up my skin, that won't help.


----------



## baxman

^^thats what welbutrin did for me, it made me wittier, more social.welbutrin seemed to help words flow if that makes any sense?not in an alcohol type manner either.i find when im not on any meds it takes much more effort to socialize.


----------



## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> Ahh, Lamactil is one of those drugs that I don't want to touch because it builds up in your skin and eyes. Apparently it has an impact on collagen too. It's also why you can get skin diseases on it. But yah I mean one thing I still got is my looks and when I come out of the depression/anhedonia I want to catch up on all the banging I missed out on lol. If lamictal screws up my skin, that won't help.


haha, I'm a bit vain myself. But I figure it is worth the risk. I have always had great eyes and skin and I experienced absolutely no rash or skin/any side effects from it. So yeah being on any drug is less than ideal. I have read about the collagen risks and that really isn't great. My end goal is to eventually get of all meds; hoefully I'll be able to and still maintain. I'll have to see. If it messes up my skin I'll just fully wrap up my turban. What woman doesn't want to bang a Turban wearing sikh?


----------



## riptide991

istayhome said:


> What woman doesn't want to bang a Turban wearing sikh?


From what I understand of my limited knowledge of their culture. What woman has a choice? hehe kidding.


----------



## istayhome

Hey, on a serious note I have a question for you. From everything I've read Bupropion and it's metabolites have a net result of increasing DA levels to a significantly greater extent than the raise in NE levels. I feel that that has been my experience as well. I know you are very well read on the subject, what can you tell me?


----------



## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> From what I understand of my limited knowledge of their culture. What woman has a choice? hehe kidding.


I get the joke but just to briefly educate a tiny bit Sikhism is totally different from radical Islam. Sikhism is an entirely different religion and devoted to keeping the peace. The first Sikh began the religion in order to be peacemakers between the Hindus ant the Muslims in the mid 15th Century. I really don't care but rape is incredibly rare in Sikh culture. Sikh's tend to be men and they all choose to follow the Guru's teachings; It is quite different than tyrannical radical Islam. Just a minor briefing. Most people get Sikhs and Muslims confused. In the US there was a very recent Sikh temple bombing. The bomber believed he was bombing a Muslim temple just because the people there wore turbans.:roll


----------



## riptide991

istayhome said:


> I get the joke but just to briefly educate a tiny bit Sikhism is totally different from radical Islam. Sikhism is an entirely different religion and devoted to keeping the peace. The first Sikh began the religion in order to be peacemakers between the Hindus ant the Muslims in the mid 15th Century. I really don't care but rape is incredibly rare in Sikh culture. Sikh's tend to be men and they all choose to follow the Guru's teachings; It is quite different than tyrannical radical Islam. Just a minor briefing. Most people get Sikhs and Muslims confused. In the US there was a very recent Sikh temple bombing. The bomber believed he was bombing a Muslim temple just because the people there wore turbans.:roll


Lol, I know that's why I said just kidding, but you already acknowledged that. Come on i'm Canadian, I'm not that ignorant. 

I must say I feel much better today since I didn't take buspar. And buspar has such a short half life It's probably out already.


----------



## GotAnxiety

@kehcorpz did buspar mess with any aspects of your sex drive or pleasure?


----------



## riptide991

GotAnxiety said:


> @kehcorpz did buspar mess with any aspects of your sex drive or pleasure?


Yah my anhedonia got worse. At first sex drive got better but I imagine some sort of feedback loop caused it to actually lower. The last few days while on it my sex drive has actually been nil. I feel pretty good today and haven't felt very good the last few days on buspar. So I think it makes things worse in the end. Too expensive for me to give any more trial to it. I'm kind of pissed that he didn't give me Prozac like I asked. So doubt he will probably give me Nardil. But I've been reading and Nardil seems to have 70-85% success rates in a lot of things like social phobia, etc.. Don't know how high it is in depression but worth a try. I'm going to bring an Obama poster with the word HOPE written on it to my next session maybe that will get him to give me Nardil. haha


----------



## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> Lol, I know that's why I said just kidding, but you already acknowledged that. Come on i'm Canadian, I'm not that ignorant.
> 
> I must say I feel much better today since I didn't take buspar. And buspar has such a short half life It's probably out already.


I always forget that a prerequisite to be a Canadian Citizen is first to be a genius 

I know you were kidding I just wanted to write a quick blurb for any non-geniuses who may come across this thread.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Ya im getting that anhedonia. i think my genitallya is kinda numb and im not as interested in women as i once was this could be a good and a bad thing. As in "less likely to get distracted by women" . But since i moved up to 450mg i sometimes wake up with a raging hard on acouple times. But I think the buspar maybe nullifying that effect. And it might be messing with modivation. I think i was more modivated befor starting the buspar.

Im not sure how the health system works in otario hehe but couldn't you just go to a walkin clinic and get your prozac. just tell them you need a refill.

In alberta we get free health even are premium is payed for by the provincial government .

I really wanna push the limit here and try 600mg would be alot cheaper doing that. then augmenting with drinking and smoking at 300mg . Even tho the later would be alot more social. I think it would be safe. I got enough for 10 days at 450mg then 6 at 600mg befor i gotta reload .

I think wellbutrin is superior too the amphetimines that the gp can prescirbe in the sex department without alot of the side effects.


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## mark555666

This med made my anxiety thousand times worse. I have to say it was not the XL version.


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## riptide991

In Ontario they introduced a new database that all pharmacies have to use that is shared between them all. Basically there was abuse of the system because people were going to multiple doctors and getting extra prescriptions and then going to different pharmacies to fill them. This lead to a problem with OxyContin abuse. One of the flags is getting different prescrirptions from different doctors in the same timeline you are already prescribed something else. From my understanding this is supposed to be used in all of Canada at one point.


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## mark555666

kehcorpz said:


> In Ontario they introduced a new database that all pharmacies have to use that is shared between them all. Basically there was abuse of the system because people were going to multiple doctors and getting extra prescriptions and then going to different pharmacies to fill them. This lead to a problem with OxyContin abuse. One of the flags is getting different prescrirptions from different doctors in the same timeline you are already prescribed something else. From my understanding this is supposed to be used in all of Canada at one point.


Don't use oxycontin man.  Only for hardcore pain relief.


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## riptide991

Freesix88 said:


> Don't use oxycontin man.  Only for hardcore pain relief.


I don't  I'm saying people were doing this and that's what lead to them getting a shared database to keep track of patient prescriptions.


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## GotAnxiety

That can't be true for over here. my mom addicted to tylanol 1 and she goes to like every pharmacies to get it from what i can tell. Only the same pharmacies are connected cause t1 are otc. they take your id punch it into the computer. limit one bottle per month. Maybe the docter part might be under watch tho. I've only been to 3 dr so far and i used 2 pharmacies so far cause it was more convenient closer etc. The same pharmacies will only give me one month of the anti-depressant at a time tho.


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## mark555666

Okay  I think you posted in the wrong thread yhough


----------



## riptide991

@gotanxiety, yah it may be in Ontario only. Though it only applies to prescription drugs. You can buy all the Tylenol 1 you want. In fact you can buy 20 bottles at once and they wont care hehe.


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## GotAnxiety

Crazy hehe here you gotta hop to every different pharmacies just to get a bottle. Sometimes my mom ask me to go buy for her because she can't. it so annoying.

Probably cause ontario has more people to drain the system dry heh.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Didn't oxy get banned? I thought they did.


----------



## riptide991

Yah it did but they are considering allow generics to be produced. A lot of people are turning to hard drugs because of the ban.


----------



## riptide991

Buspar has a fast clearance, usually gone within a day. I am already starting to feel better and browsing video games that I want to play. Damn Buspar, you seemed so good at first but then you stabbed me in the back. =\


----------



## GotAnxiety

Yeah man im feeling the same. i feel like tackeling the world now, that **** killed my modivation. I don't need a drug to calm me. I was suppose to work a couple days this week but i couldn't get off my ***. And it all happen same time as taking buspar. My goal was to start working doing a labor job and i never did was just to lazy.


----------



## riptide991

Man I think Buspar was suppressing my sleep. I slept 12 hours! and I loved every minute of it. I didn't feel all tired like I overslept hah.

If my doctor doesn't give me a MAOI i'll be like. "you're right, it's very unsafe, I'm going to take up smoking instead"

or you know:


----------



## istayhome

@kehcorpz

Did you notice this question asked and can do you have any response?

Hey, on a serious note I have a question for you. From everything I've read Bupropion and it's metabolites have a net result of increasing DA levels to a significantly greater extent than the raise in NE levels. I feel that that has been my experience as well. I know you are very well read on the subject, what can you tell me?

Since restarting Wellbutrin I am finally not oversleeping and I am motivated to be active every day. Pretty awesome I think.


----------



## riptide991

Yah bupriopion itself is completely selective for DAT and only at full occupancy will it start targeting NET. Hydroxybupropion on the other hand targets NET and DAT but mostly has a selectivity for NET. DA was shown to be increased from like 23-46%. Not enough to give euphoria but enough to make a difference. That's why people would snort it so that it didn't convert to hydroxybupropion and they got full out euphoria. And all of the DA increase happens in the Nucleus Accumbens the reward center while many other drugs seem to increase in all areas including prefrontal cortex. So I guess that will make it a bit more unique. I like it too but it hasn't really completely snapped me out of my anhedonia. It does help but seems to be a very slow process.


----------



## istayhome

^Thanks for the confirmation. Ugh I can't imagine snorting it. Snorting anything is a bad idea. Especially pills. They're pills people, damn, swallow them!

I hope it keeps working well for you and gets you fully out of the Anhedonia. That is the worst state to be in. I prefer depression to Anhedonia, because when I am depressed I can actively try to overcome it but being anhedonic is just an impossible state to do anything with.


----------



## riptide991

Yah I mean buspar actually screwed thing sup. But I'm feeling soo much better today without the buspar. Either Wellbutrin has been working all this time in the background and buspar masking it, or since buspar binds presynaptically to autoreceptors, it decensitized these receptors and now I'm getting more serotonin coming out since quitting buspar. Who knows, but I'm feeling really nice and warm right now hehe. I still want to try Nardil however. The success rate on that thing is insane.


----------



## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> Don't follow republican values (Lowers depression 100 fold)


Excellent. For me it greatly decreases anxiety as well.


----------



## riptide991

istayhome said:


> Excellent. For me it greatly decreases anxiety as well.


There was a controversial study not too long ago that said people with conservative values have a lower IQ. Man did that spark a lot of anger in the media.

Nyuk Nyuk http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html


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## istayhome

yeah I read that study. It makes sense to me that those with lower IQ's would generally be more conservative minded; Having a very hard time "seeing outside the box." i.e. liberal thinking.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Ya im doing better now to. Now that i stopped buspar. Well on buspar i just felt like chilling in my room all day. Last night i went to the grocey store and i cleaned and orginized my room. im feeling more social and happy not lazy and angery. Today i woke up and made a salad and salad dressing. im gonna blend up my own juices in the new blender in a bit . Already been way more active and i got another adventure planned for later.


----------



## riptide991

Nice man. I wanted to workout today and had the motivation but man it's raining and cold outside. I postponed it till tomorrow haha.


----------



## straightarrows

istayhome said:


> I get the joke but just to briefly educate a tiny bit Sikhism is totally different from radical Islam. Sikhism is an entirely different religion and devoted to keeping the peace. The first Sikh began the religion in order to be peacemakers between the Hindus ant the Muslims in the mid 15th Century. I really don't care but rape is incredibly rare in Sikh culture. Sikh's tend to be men and they all choose to follow the Guru's teachings; It is quite different than tyrannical radical Islam. Just a minor briefing. Most people get Sikhs and Muslims confused. In the US there was a very recent Sikh temple bombing. The bomber believed he was bombing a Muslim temple just because the people there wore turbans.:roll


link plz? Bombing??

I only met few Sikhs in my life, they look calm people..


----------



## Inshallah

istayhome said:


> yeah I read that study. It makes sense to me that those with lower IQ's would generally be more conservative minded; Having a very hard time "seeing outside the box." i.e. liberal thinking.


What a coincidence, I just used this exact same wording on another forum. But for university educated people vs non university educated people. (which will coincide largely with liberal and conservative voting I assume)

Hardcore American Republicans are often hilarious, with their hate towards non-Americans, their hunting, their guns, ... all just 1 major LOL to us highly educated people.


----------



## istayhome

straightarrows said:


> link plz? Bombing??
> 
> I only met few Sikhs in my life, they look calm people..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting

My bad it was a shooting not a bombing. does it matter? hate crimes are hate crimes.

A dumb white supremacist killed six Sikhs because he thought Sikhism is the same as Islam due to the fact that Sikh's wear Turbans. That's right; He thought he was killing Muslims just because the people were wearing Turbans! The religious orientation of the people he killed is irrelevant. It just illustrates the massive amount of ignorance that a lot of white people have when it comes to some of the world's most popular religions.

After being a devout atheist for a decade I'm converting to Sikhism precisely because of the principal's of peace and acceptance; bonus Sikhs don't really believe in a god either so it fits me well.


----------



## The Professor

Inshallah said:


> What a coincidence, I just used this exact same wording on another forum. But for university educated people vs non university educated people. (which will coincide largely with liberal and conservative voting I assume)
> 
> Hardcore American Republicans are often hilarious, with their hate towards non-Americans, their hunting, their guns, ... all just 1 major LOL to us highly educated people.


forget about guns and those smaller viewpoints, maybe some people in the south are dumb, idk. But free market capitalism is what made america the greatest country in the world. Btw, our credit rating is about to go down again.


----------



## istayhome

The Professor said:


> forget about guns and those smaller viewpoints, maybe some people in the south are dumb, idk. But free market capitalism is what made america the greatest country in the world. Btw, our credit rating is about to go down again.


Free market Capitalism was once a very liberal idea.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Yeah i may drop down to 300mg for bloodpressure reasons im still not sure yet. 450mg just maybe is starting to mess with my sleep. i don't wanna be quick to jump the gun on this and drop down to 300 just yet.

But i got my gear today. i got a 32 led samsung 1080p smart tv a 360 and boarderlands gotye fallout 3 new vegas ulte and it came with skyrim and forza motorsports . I guess that my chrismas present to my self. Spoiled my self rotten hehe now im broke. Yea so the juice i made was thick. 2 beets half a purple cabage 1 pineapple and 2 large green apples. but it tastes amazing even with protein powder.


----------



## riptide991

@gotanxiety: Well 300mg was messing with my sleep at first, don't you have to go through the side effects every time you change dose?

I just had another great sleep today, a long one but feeling damn refreshed. I must be catching up for when buspar was messing with REM. I feel damn good.

You should have gotten a great gaming PC instead. I bought mine with core i5-2500K 3.3GHZ, 8 gigs of ram, Zotac Geforce GTX 670 AMP Edition an SSD drive, an secondary 7200rpm drive etc, for about 1800. I already had a monitor and connect it to my 55 inch tv sometimes and use my ps3 controller to play games mimicking the xbox controller. I still have to get started on fallout new vegas. I have so many games I bought on sale on steam. And their xmas sale is coming up soon so I'm just going to end up getting more great games 

Borderlands gotye is great. I put in about 70 hours into it. I still haven't finished all the DLC though.


----------



## istayhome

I guess I restarted Wellbutrin 5 days ago, my sleep is normalizing now. It's great, I'm not oversleeping anymore because I look forward to waking up.


----------



## riptide991

Hah I love sleeping though, well in the morning, I don't like going to bed at night. That's just something that has been with me since my teenage years.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Ya i coulda but im not really into pc anymore. more into console gaming. I was just thinking it probably cost alot with a nice video card. All my gear was only 820. i may resell it too retain some of the value. after im done beating these games. At work today everything going good been up since 4.

hopefully it just that 10 day hunch i gotta get over to adjust.


----------



## riptide991

But all the console games are out on PC but with better graphics. So I don't get what you mean by into console games haha. Check out Steam. It's a download service for pc games. They have insane sales man. Full games for 75% off during these sales. Anyways, you already got your console so no biggy. 

I'm thinking the worst with my doctor, my guess is he's either going to raise my wellbutrin or add another crappy ssri.


----------



## riptide991

The longer I've been off Buspar the more things are returning to normal where wellbutrin is slowly fixing my issues. I'm enjoying music again. I played some games today. I'm whistling. Buspar just suppressed everything. Still though no love for programming one of my fave pass times hehe.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Does wellbutrin increase bdfn?


----------



## riptide991

I think all antidepressants increase bdnf.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Had a great day today was on the ball at work all day. felt real euporic afterwards like a natural high all relax and tired i don't normally feel that. Did a real intensive labour job no problems. Then i came home i was so orginized i made a great diner and a huge lunch for tomorrow all at the same time. i don't normally do that even with such effiencey. 

Took some gravol for sleep tonight. Lately ive been having trouble guess im too excited.


----------



## riptide991

Sounds awesome gotanxiety, hope things keep up.

Man more reason why he should have added Prozac like I wanted instead of buspar crap.



> Inhibition of monoamine oxidase B was investigated both in vitro and in vivo in rats by using the radioligand, N-(6-[18F]fluorohexyl)-N-methylpropargylamine ([18F]FHMP). Binding affinities of five compounds, deprenyl, clorgyline, fluoxetine, norfluoxetine and citalopram were studied. Fluoxetine and norfluoxetine showed affinities of 17 and 13 microM for monoamine oxidase B, respectively. Acute doses of fluoxetine and norfluoxetine (20 mg/kg) also significantly inhibited (10 to 15%) the binding of the radioligand in vivo while citalopram showed lower affinity (140 microM) for monoamine oxidase B and little effect in vivo. The in vivo effects of the various drugs were directly comparable to their in vitro affinities for binding to monoamine oxidase B in the correlation plot of percent control in vivo binding of [18F]FHMP and binding affinity, -logIC50 (R2 = 0.989). *These results provide evidence for a potential role of monoamine oxidase B inhibition in the therapeutic effects of Prozac.*


----------



## thundercats

How much prozac would be required? Maybe I'll ask for a lil pro. Prozac has somehow always fascinated me. Maybe it's just the name. I dont know.


----------



## riptide991

Well it would be at regular chronic doses since they showed it with acute. But yah I still think that Prozac is the best of all the SSRIs, at least for depression. Maybe not for anxiety because it takes a more balanced approach while other SSRIs all shoot for just serotonin. It seems all the older drugs are the best, including MAOIs like Nardil, hehe. Yet supposedly science is progressing in medicine.


----------



## GotAnxiety

I was primed today i slayed that **** like a ninja. Im droping down to 300mg for the time been. I get a heaviness in my chest after i take my dose of 450 and it last all day untill it time to take it again. Just as it starting too wear off it goes away. I think my eye sight been improving. like how the ssri does it for me but a much slower onset. Oddly enough i think 450mg increases my alcohol tolarance. 

I think the next step in my treatment would be to add a ssri. I'd be down to try prozac. I actually did try it a awhile back for only a couple days. It made me real talkitive. But i only had like 5 pills. From what I remember it was really smooth. Didn't notice to many side effects.

Sounds like a good plan SSRI for BDFN and Wellbutrin for DHEA. 2 steroids are better then one right hehe. One for the body and one for the mind. 

My bloodpressure was lower on an a SSRI anyways. I think it would be benefitcial for my heart.


----------



## riptide991

Yah I'm going in there and will only take a MAOI or add Prozac to my wellbutrin. Unless he proposes something that sounds interesting to me, I won't budge. Although I doubt he will propose something as I don't see what can be so great. I mean buspar I only folded with because I always wanted to try it due to the oxytocin component. But yah out of all the SSRIs I think Prozac is the best. It seems all the older stuff is always better including MAOIs hehe.


----------



## GotAnxiety

I don't see any reason why he won't give you prozac. it has a proven track record. its the only one they give to minors and it has a 3 day halflife. Which sounds pretty sweet.


----------



## riptide991

Well he didn't want to give it to me in combination with the wellbutrin because he knows it will increase dopamine much more.


----------



## GotAnxiety

That good heh. Any idea by how much? Hell that probably the the safest SSRI to use with Ritalin cause of it slow on set.


----------



## riptide991

> *Influence of fluoxetine on the ability of bupropion to modulate extracellular dopamine and norepinephrine concentrations in three mesocorticolimbic areas of rats.*
> 
> Li SX, Perry KW, Wong DT.
> *Source*
> 
> Neuroscience Research, Lilly Research Laboratories, Eli Lilly and Company, Indianapolis, IN 46285, USA.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> The finding that serotonin (5-HT) can modulate dopamine (DA) and norepinephrine (NE) release in the brain has led us to hypothesize that fluoxetine, a selective 5-HT reuptake inhibitor, may influence the ability of bupropion, a preferential DA and NE dual reuptake inhibitor, to modulate extracellular DA and NE concentrations in some brain areas. The present study was designed to evaluate this hypothesis by assessing the effects of fluoxetine on bupropion-induced changes in extracellular monoamine concentrations by means of in vivo microdialysis. Three mesocorticolimbic areas including hypothalamus (Ht), prefrontal cortex (Pfc) and nucleus accumbens (Acb) were selected based on their relevance to depression and antidepressant actions. In the Ht of untreated rats, bupropion dose-dependently (s.c.) increased extracellular DA and NE concentrations either in single injection study or in sequential injection study. Thus, 10 mg/kg of bupropion had no effect on the DA and NE concentrations, while 30 mg/kg of bupropion induced transient but significant increases (about 240% of the baselines), and 100 mg/kg of bupropion induced marked and persistent increases (over 600% of the baselines) in the DA and NE concentrations. *In the rats pre-treated with fluoxetine (10 mg/kg, s.c., 90 min interval), the threshold dose of bupropion (10 mg/kg) significantly increased the DA and NE concentrations to more than 350% of the baselines, and 30 mg/kg of bupropion markedly increased the DA and NE concentrations to more than 570% of the baselines in the Ht*. The fluoxetine pre-treatment also potentiated the DA increases induced by 10 mg/kg of bupropion in the Pfc (260% for bupropion alone vs 357% for the combination) and in the Acb (224% vs 645%). The bupropion-induced NE increases were potentiated by fluoxetine mainly in the Ht. Bupropion did not significantly affect the extracellular 5-HT concentrations in all the 3 brain areas tested. In summary, the present study demonstrated that bupropion can increase extracellular DA and NE concentrations in several mesocorticolimbic areas, which may have an impact on bupropion's antidepressant actions. Furthermore*, fluoxetine can potentiate the bupropion-induced DA and NE increases, which may produce more effective and rapid antidepressant actions.*


pretty nice stuff.

224 and 645% in the nucleus accumbens aka the reward center.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Sounds good to me. who needs ritalin or amphetamines hehe. That a pretty signifcant increase. Sounds like you can even be able to get by with less wellbutrin with that combination.


----------



## riptide991

Well I don't think it can compare to amphetamines, but definitely a better long term solution.


----------



## GotAnxiety

What the reason for the increase? Do they prevent the break down of one another?


----------



## GotAnxiety

The only problem i see with that is what if you had a toxic reaction both have long halflifes and metabolites. It may take a long time for the effects to wear off. But it might be safer then smoking and drinking if it effective. It Could be worth the risk.


----------



## riptide991

Who cares man. Give me 5 years of a great life over 90 years of a crappy life.


----------



## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> Who cares man. Give me 5 years of a great life over 90 years of a crappy life.


true dat


----------



## riptide991

Alright leaving in 30 minutes. This is my psychiatrist when I mention MAOI:


----------



## istayhome

Yeah I've gotten that response a few times from p-docs.


----------



## riptide991

Hehe I popped a zopiclone to relax cuz I know i'm gonna flip if he says something stupid.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Just tell him youell fire him if he says no. my doc tells me that all the time.


----------



## gilmourr

in canada we don't hire doctors


----------



## istayhome

GotAnxiety said:


> Just tust tell him youell fire him if he says no. my doc tells me that all the time.


Yeah, I've been "fired" by a p-doc for saying no. I'd been on Zoloft once for around 90 days. I only experienced negative effects from it. So then I went through a bunch more SSRI's. I saw this P-doc again and he told me the only drug he would prescribe was Zoloft. I told him how it had negatively effected me in the past and I did not want to take it again. He spent 90 minutes trying to convince me that it was a miracle pill. I said no. The next day I received a polite card in the mail telling me he no longer could see me as a patient because I "did not obey the prescription policies laid forth in our contract." So in his practice apparently paients are not allowed to say no.


----------



## GotAnxiety

I think it better if the paient chooses the medication and it doesn't work out. Honestly i don't wanna voice what i wanna do to my docter after my effexor incentident. My diastolic was always low.


----------



## riptide991

Woot I got Abilify. Thought he was super against it but I guess not, he said he did some research.

When I mentioned MAOI he was good with Moclobemide but Is aid that it takes really high doses like 900mg. He told me 600mg would probably work. But I was iffy on it so he suggested abilify.


----------



## riptide991

> It also antagonizes the 5-HT7 receptor


That's a big one for me.



> D2 and D3 receptor occupancy levels are high, with average levels ranging between ~71% at 2 mg/day to ~96% at 40 mg/day


I'm starting at 2 and going up to 5mg in a week.


----------



## chiaza

Aren't you worried about gaining weight? I have a friend who was put on a similar medication, Zyprexa, who gained 15kg (35lbs) very quickly.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Abilify a good one i hope it workz out


----------



## ricca91

chiaza said:


> Aren't you worried about gaining weight? I have a friend who was put on a similar medication, Zyprexa, who gained 15kg (35lbs) very quickly.


Zyprexa is the ultimate weight gainer. Not only it makes you eat more because of the H1 and 5-HT2A antagonism, it also switches the "fuel" that the body uses for energy.

Normally the body uses glucose, with Zyprexa it begins to use fat. Scary stuff, I wouldn't touch Zyprexa, I'm very happy with my seroquel (zero weight gain for me).

I wouldn't worry about weight gain with Abilify, it's not an antihistamine. It is a partial agonist at the 5-HT1A receptor, so it has part of the action that Buspar has.
With Abilify I would worry much more about akathisia and EPS. Also, it tends to be activating (although some people feel sleepy) so it's better to take it in the morning. I think Abilify is a very interesting medication indeed!


----------



## riptide991

Man that cost me a pretty penny. 182 dollars for everything! Abilify is expensive. It's still brand name only here


----------



## riptide991

chiaza said:


> Aren't you worried about gaining weight? I have a friend who was put on a similar medication, Zyprexa, who gained 15kg (35lbs) very quickly.


Thats' what they said about Remeron. I was at 45mg and didn't gain any weight. I don't think it's possible for me to gain weight. When I started taking wellbutrin I ate more and my abs were getting more defined as I took it.


----------



## chiaza

kehcorpz said:


> Man that cost me a pretty penny. 182 dollars for everything! Abilify is expensive. It's still brand name only here


You can save by ordering indian generics online. The price is only $5.00USD for 10x 10mg tablets of generic Abilify.


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## A Sense of Purpose

kehcorpz said:


> Man that cost me a pretty penny. 182 dollars for everything! Abilify is expensive. It's still brand name only here


Wouldnt Amisulpride be a better medication for you considering its action on dopamine?

Furthermore from memory it dissociates more rapidly from the d2 receptors than abilify so has less chance of akathisia and TD/resltessness.

Only thing is the prolacin levels but some suggest taking the med every second day to avoid that.


----------



## chiaza

A Sense of Purpose said:


> Wouldnt Amisupride be a better medication for you considering its action on dopamine?
> 
> Furthermore from memory it dissociates more rapidly from the d2 receptors than abilify so has less chance of akathisia and TD/resltessness.
> 
> Only thing is the prolacin levels but some suggest taking the med every second day to avoid that.


What is the problem with high prolactin level? My prolactin level is currently 2400uIU/ml and I don't experience any symptoms.


----------



## riptide991

ricca91 said:


> I think Abilify is a very interesting medication indeed!


Hah he told me to take it at night but if it bothers me with my sleep to switch to morning.


----------



## A Sense of Purpose

chiaza said:


> What is the problem with high prolactin level? My prolactin level is currently 2400uIU/ml and I don't experience any symptoms.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperprolactinemia#Symptoms

To name a few side effects.


----------



## chiaza

A Sense of Purpose said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperprolactinemia#Symptoms
> 
> To name a few side effects.


I think I may have a prolactinoma, unfortunately I can't afford the MRI to confirm it.


----------



## A Sense of Purpose

chiaza said:


> I think I may have a prolactinoma, unfortunately I can't afford the MRI to confirm it.


These symptoms may help diagnose any issues with prolacin

'decreased libido, erectile dysfunction, infertility and gynaecomastia'


----------



## riptide991

chiaza said:


> What is the problem with high prolactin level? My prolactin level is currently 2400uIU/ml and I don't experience any symptoms.


Prolactin is known for lowering testosterone and it also artificially boosts leptin which creates something akin to insulin resistance. It also can lower dopamine in crucial areas. From the studies I read abilify shows the best results in the nucleus accumbens which you should target if you have anhedonia.


----------



## chiaza

kehcorpz said:


> Prolactin is known for lowering testosterone and it also artificially boosts leptin which creates something akin to insulin resistance. It also can lower dopamine in crucial areas. From the studies I read abilify shows the best results in the nucleus accumbens which you should target if you have anhedonia.


I see, that probably explains my results.








I wonder if it also explains my depression.


----------



## riptide991

And they haven't prescribed a drug for this chiaza? That's some pretty serious numbers you're looking at. you need to get it corrected before it gets worse.


----------



## chiaza

kehcorpz said:


> And they haven't prescribed a drug for this chiaza? That's some pretty serious numbers you're looking at. you need to get it corrected before it gets worse.


No, I wasn't offered any treatment. I am not experiencing any negatives effects from this though.


----------



## riptide991

chiaza said:


> No, I wasn't offered any treatment. I am not experiencing any negatives effects from this though.


Man you could become permanently impotent. Demand a solution! Having testosterone that low will not benefit you in anyway, including depression.


----------



## chiaza

kehcorpz said:


> Man you could become permanently impotent. Demand a solution! Having testosterone that low will not benefit you in anyway, including depression.


I don't care about the testosterone, I am just worried about the prolactin. I can't afford MRI but it doesn't seem to be going down, actually it's increasing, so I'm worried that I have prolactinoma. I've never had a tumor before, it's scary. :afr


----------



## ricca91

kehcorpz said:


> Man you could become permanently impotent. Demand a solution! Having testosterone that low will not benefit you in anyway, including depression.


Yeah, and that could be one of the reasons you feel so bad and suicidal... Please get treatment as soon as possible... Seems like the problem is at pituitary level... Although it could be hypothalamic, but considering the high prolactin I think the adenohypophysis is "suffering".

It is an important matter and after you correct it, your life could make a 180* turn, for the better. Never underestimate hormones. Take care please!


----------



## chiaza

Does it mean that my liver failing if the "ALT" level is significantly higher than it was last month, but still within range ?


----------



## ricca91

chiaza said:


> Does it mean that my liver failing if the "ALT" level is significantly higher than it was last month, but still within range ?


No, it doesn't necessarily means that it's failing, can be a lot of things... The thing it's surr is that a rapid increase in transaminases (ALT and AST) means that the liver is under stress.

I advice you to go to the hospital ASAP for a complete check-up. The hormone thing must be treated, this is for sure, the values are too off. I am sure that a large part of your suffering also stems from this hormone imbalance


----------



## riptide991

chiaza said:


> I don't care about the testosterone, I am just worried about the prolactin. I can't afford MRI but it doesn't seem to be going down, actually it's increasing, so I'm worried that I have prolactinoma. I've never had a tumor before, it's scary. :afr


Can't you get some government grant for it? Wouldn't Obama care help there?


----------



## chiaza

kehcorpz said:


> Can't you get some government grant for it? Wouldn't Obama care help there?


I don't live in USA. If I did, I am sure I would have moved already. :um


----------



## riptide991

chiaza said:


> I don't live in USA. If I did, I am sure I would have moved already. :um


Aww sucks. Well a lot of times pituitary tumors are small and don't need to be removed but you still need drugs for the increased prolactin. Just ask a doctor for something to lower prolactin. Typically it will be a dopamine agonist of sort. Well maybe, not sure what type of drugs are used in these cases.


----------



## ricca91

kehcorpz said:


> Aww sucks. Well a lot of times pituitary tumors are small and don't need to be removed but you still need drugs for the increased prolactin. Just ask a doctor for something to lower prolactin. Typically it will be a dopamine agonist of sort. Well maybe, not sure what type of drugs are used in these cases.


Yes, dopamine agonists. Cabergoline or bromocriptine are the most commonly used.


----------



## riptide991

First impressions of abilify: So far I'm feeling very warm. I'm yawning like crazy though. I mean it reminds me of the crazy yawning I did with Remeron. The computer screen seems bright. Yah, weird I know, but seriously there is something about it. May be because it's enhancing focus, who knows.


----------



## riptide991

Ok so I went to bed at around 12. I ended up falling asleep for about an hour. Then I kept waking up and falling asleep for really short periods of time, we are talking like 30 minute intervals. I'm up now at 5am because I have way too much energy. Guess I should have waited till morning to take this thing. This is only 2mg too as I move up to 5mg in a week. I guess the doc thought it would make me tired at first so said take it at night. Some people have reported initial fatigue. At least i'm not jittery just very alert and awake and calm.


----------



## riptide991

Was feeling excessively stimulated so popped half a zopiclone. Wow now I feel a bit drunk off that zopiclone. Never felt it like that. At least it relaxed me. I guess it potentiates it somehow. But I already usually get over stimulated when I don't sleep much. I did have 2 cups of coffee and 2 cups of green tea. I should stop coffee for a month or at least till the transient effects go away. 

Oh yah just read that it does actually potentiate zopiclone. Ahh well, explains why I'm even losing balance as if I was drunk.


----------



## R86

I'll be lurking here even harder now that I know you're trying Abilify. I've started thinking over the last week that maybe much of the anxiety I feel is only a symptom rather than the root problem. I may have mentioned that what I've read about avoidant personality disorder is almost eerie in describing me, as is borderline personality disorder. In fact a psychologist diagnosed me with borderline personality disorder some years ago, but I didn't pay it much attention since we didn't seem to click.

If I understand right, then conditions like these are more on the "psychotic spectrum" than the "anxiety spectrum" and thus I've started to wonder whether Abilify or Seroquel would be a better fit for me than Zoloft. Only I don't like what I read about high blood pressure and weight gain as potential side effects -- I lost a bunch of weight a few years ago and I'd like to keep my weight down, and my blood pressure has almost always been low (even when I was heavier) and I'd like this to stay that way too.

The other weird thing I've read about is the connections involving various psychiatric trouble (anxiety, psychosis, insomnia, depression), high blood calcium, and overactive parathyroid glands. My blood calcium level has been borderline to slightly high for as many years as I can remember.

*tl;dr* Looking forward to reading more about how you do on the Abilify.


----------



## riptide991

@r86 fo' shizzle

If you have intrusive thoughts or anything like that Abilify will help. I've been reading reviews and it actually has quite a high success rate. Though it varies from person to person with the anxiety. Some say that they get anxiety on lower doses and it goes away on doses as high as 15mg. The problem is at 120 bucks for 30 5mg pills, I am not going to go to 15mg anytime soon haha. And you sure you just don't eat a butt load of cheese? I need to get blood tests done, I haven't in ages. I may go next week.

I actually slept last night because I took the abilify early yesterday. Today I took it at 9am when I woke up. I'm also stopping coffee for a while till things settle down. I'll stick to only tea. 

I must say 1 weird side effect of the Abilify is hiccups. I had some serious hiccups yesterday, never had them that strong. I mean you can get rid of them the usual way with holding your breath and swallowing, but still weird. A lot of people said they got it for a good 3 weeks and then it went away.


----------



## istayhome

Damn. Medication is expensive. I think Effexor XR was the most expensive drug I've been on. It was Around $10/300mg pill. Everytime I picked up my prescription the pharmacy technician would say, "you need to get some health insurance man!"
Well Unfortunately I can't get health insurance due to my "pre-existing condition."


----------



## riptide991

Yah the pharmacist never asked me about drug insurance when I was filling Wellbutrin/buspar and other drugs but with this one she was like "umm you don't have insurance?" This is probably the most expensive drug in Canada. And man when I looked at the prices in the US. It's ridiculous! No wonder people do street drugs to treat their problems. I bet a month supply of heroin is cheaper.

Ugh my mouth/sinuses are so dry. Funny part is people say it causes an over production of saliva and they drool in their sleep. Hope that happens to me because excess saliva is better than less saliva, especially for teeth.


----------



## R86

kehcorpz said:


> intrusive thoughts


Yep, that's me all right. It would be just my luck that the drug for me would be so expensive. I have insurance, but I already know from experience with Lexapro (didn't find it much better than Zoloft at 10x the price or more) that brand name drugs are expensive no matter what.

I'm meeting with my psychiatrist after the first of the year, so I'll bring all this up then. I'm travelling out of state until then, and I think I'll be OK on just Zoloft plus Trazodone plus horny goat weed plus not doing anything too stupid. (Speaking of which, I do feel better since starting the horny goat weed, but I also stopped using benzos and Z-drugs at the same time, which even at low doses and occasional use may have done me more harm than good.)


----------



## riptide991

Oh I've been using z-drugs because sometimes get too agitated on abilify. Granted this is only my 3rd day. This is supposed to go away eventually. Good thing is it's making me want to work out cuz i'll go nuts if I don't haha. I may raise it tomorrow from 2mg to 4mg. I'm supposed to stay on 2mg for 7 days but I don't really want to wait that long.

*Welcome to kehcorpz's first workout on Abilify review.*

Verdict:










is gooood I like!

So the restlessness is gone now that I had a great workout. I know this sort of effect is supposed to eventually subside but still I find it quite interesting on how energized it makes you. Keep in mind that I had no coffee today and I went up in weight in all my lifts not to mention cut some time off the rests. This is huge because normally if I miss my first dose of coffee I have headaches within 2 hours and feel super weak. I didn't feel anything like that so that's a good thing. Now I think the restlessness may be a combination of wellbutrin and abilify. The reason I mention this is because I took abilify at 9am. I didn't really feel the crazy restless feeling till 1 hour after I took my wellbutrin. I took my wellbutrin at 12pm as usual. Now I may need to lower my Wellbutrin dose if it doesn't go away. It also seems to be helping with depression a bit too as I'm a bit more chipper. This could also be an initial reaction as I tend to adapt to drugs quickly. If I could get by on 2.5mg then maybe i'd consider taking it for a few months. I'm actually going to try the 5mg and see the difference. My biggest problem is once again that the price is freaking INSANE! I wonder if buying 15 10mg pills would be cheaper than 30 5mg pills. That's something I'll have to find out.

K restlessness has come back a bit but not as bad. I took a small dose of melatonin to lower dopamine.


----------



## R86

I've always hated exercise, to my shame. In fact I lost most of the weight without doing much exercise besides necessary daily walking.

As for the Z-drugs, I plan on keeping some 5 mg Ambien around for when I really can't fall asleep (like the other night when I was wired for some reason), and some 0.5 mg Ativan in case I go totally loopy and have a panic attack or something (which is pretty rare). Both leave me pretty weirded out the day after (like I was yesterday), so I'd rather leave them for emergencies.

From another thread in this forum, it seems I should maybe think in terms of adding Abilify or Seroquel to Zoloft rather than replacing it altogether. I know people who take Seroquel, but they do so at night since apparently it's a one-way ticket to unconsciousness. :sus


----------



## riptide991

Heh the low dose melatonin + heavy workout was a bad idea. I just ended up falling asleep and now I'l be up late as a result.

This explains why people on abilify get more sedated at higher doses. It starts hitting the H1 receptor.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v28/n3/fig_tab/1300027t1.html


----------



## gilmourr

kehcorpz said:


> First impressions of abilify: So far I'm feeling very warm. I'm yawning like crazy though. I mean it reminds me of the crazy yawning I did with Remeron. The computer screen seems bright. Yah, weird I know, but seriously there is something about it. May be because it's enhancing focus, who knows.


Lol I found this hilarious. "The computer screen seems bright. Yah, weird I know, but seriously there is something about it."


----------



## GotAnxiety

So what did your doc say about Prozac?


----------



## riptide991

We didn't even discuss Prozac. As soon as he mentioned Abilify a smile showed up on my face. I pushed this on him in the past but he was against it. I guess he did more research. I mean Abilify raises dopamine way beyond Prozac. Just saw Dark Knight rises bluray. Damn all 3 batman's were great movies! If I had emotions I would totally cry at the end.


----------



## riptide991

R86 said:


> Yep, that's me all right. It would be just my luck that the drug for me would be so expensive. I have insurance, but I already know from experience with Lexapro (didn't find it much better than Zoloft at 10x the price or more) that brand name drugs are expensive no matter what.
> 
> I'm meeting with my psychiatrist after the first of the year, so I'll bring all this up then. I'm travelling out of state until then, and I think I'll be OK on just Zoloft plus Trazodone plus horny goat weed plus not doing anything too stupid. (Speaking of which, I do feel better since starting the horny goat weed, but I also stopped using benzos and Z-drugs at the same time, which even at low doses and occasional use may have done me more harm than good.)


some good news



> *Comparison of the efficacy between paroxetine and sertraline augmented with aripiprazole in patients with refractory major depressive disorder.*
> Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2012 Jul 17;
> OBJECTIVE: Only two-thirds of depressive patients respond to antidepressant treatment. In recent years, addition of an atypical antipsychotic drug to ongoing treatment with an antidepressant has been considered effective and well-tolerated. In the present study, we compared the efficacy between paroxetine and sertraline augmented with aripiprazole in patients with refractory major depression. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Twenty-four patients who met the DSM-IV criteria for major depressive disorder who did not at least two different classes of antidepressants were enrolled in the study. Nine were male and thirteen were female, and their ages ranged from 28 to 66 (mean±SD=39±12) years. Patients were prescribed paroxetine (n=11) or sertraline (n=13) for 4weeks. Then, those whose scores on the 17-item Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HAMD17) decreased below 50% received adjunctive therapy of aripiprazole for 4weeks. RESULTS: Although the use of either combination treatment decreased the HAMD17 scores compared to the respective monotherapy, there was no significant difference in HAMD17 scores between the paroxetine plus aripiprazole group and sertraline plus aripiprazole group. *CONCLUSION: Aripiprazole augmentation therapy with paroxetine or sertraline was equally effective and tolerated in patients with refractory major depressive order*


I'm reading a lot of studies on this drug and it is so complex. I think it's almost easiest to say it's the 5-ht2a and 5-ht6 antagonism that lets it work best. It's also a 5-ht7 agonist which explains why it has a good track record with memory and quick thinking.



> *Ameliorating effects of aripiprazole on cognitive functions and depressive-like behavior in a genetic rat model of absence epilepsy and mild-depression comorbidity.*
> Neuropharmacology. 2012 Jul 2;
> Aripiprazole (APZ) is regarded as a first-line atypical antipsychotic used for the treatment of first and multiple episodes of schizophrenia to improve positive- and negative-symptoms. Its therapeutic indications were extended to acute manic and mixed episodes associated with bipolar disorder. In addition, APZ was approved as an adjunct therapy for major depressive disorder in 2007. Compared to other antipsychotic drugs, APZ has a unique pharmacological profile. It is a partial agonist at D(2) dopamine receptors and serotonin 5-HT(1A) and 5-HT(7) receptors, whereas it is an antagonist at serotonin 5-HT(2A) and 5-HT(6) receptors. Since epilepsy is often accompanied with neurological comorbidities such as depression, anxiety and cognitive deficits caused by both the disease and/or drug treatment, we wished to examine the effects of a sub-chronic treatment (>14 consecutive days) with APZ (0.3, 1 and 3 mg/kg; i.p.) on both absence seizures and WAG/Rij rat's behavior using different standard paradigms: Open field (OF) test, elevated plus maze (EPM) test, forced swimming (FS) test, sucrose consumption (SC) test and Morris water maze (MWM). WAG/Rij rats represent a validated genetic animal model of absence epilepsy with mild-depression comorbidity, also including other behavioral alterations. APZ treatment showed some anti-absence properties and regarding the behavioral comorbidity in this rat strain, *we observed that APZ possesses clear antidepressant effects in the FS and SC tests also increasing memory/learning function in the Morris water maze test.* In the two anxiety models used, APZ showed only minor effects. In conclusion, our results indicate that APZ might actually have a potential in treating absence seizures or as add-on therapy but more interestingly, these effect might be accompanied by positive modulatory actions on depression, anxiety and memory which might be also beneficial in other epileptic syndromes. This article is part of a Special Issue entitled 'Cognitive Enhancers'.




Awww yah, now chicks will see me walking by and be like "Isn't that the guy who had increased memory/learning function in the morris water maze test?". Chicks dig smart guys.


----------



## R86

So if I read this correctly:

1. Taking Zoloft alone (especially for major depressive disorder, which I don't think I have), is probably about the same as if I took Zoloft plus an atypical antipsychotic;

2. If I'm a rat, taking Abilify will improve my performance on various rat-tests; and

3. What I really need to do is dress up as a rat and land a gig doing the "sucrose consumption test." 

I'll still be really curious to hear what my psychiatrist thinks about Abilify or Seroquel. My day-to-day life involves feeling threatened by things that aren't really threats, way overblown negative emotional reactions to things that aren't really a big deal, and scurrying home as soon as possible so as to avoid all of the above. How I functioned so well for all these years in spite of all this is beyond me. And if "psychosis" refers to a "separation from reality," then I guess I must plead guilty. I do think the Zoloft has helped, but I can't help feeling that it could be much better if I persevered.


----------



## thundercats

I wonder could you also add a SSRI to the combo to also hit serotonine?

Abilify + ssri + wellbutrin? 

That's not included in Stahl's heroic combos. Maybe it's not possible.


----------



## jim_morrison

thundercats said:


> I wonder could you also add a SSRI to the combo to also hit serotonine?
> 
> Abilify + ssri + wellbutrin?
> 
> That's not included in Stahl's heroic combos. Maybe it's not possible.


Abilify already hits serotonin, it's a partial agonist at several serotonin receptors (5-HT1 & 5-HT2 subfamily's), that's possibly why it works a bit better overall for OCD compared with other atypicals. Actually it's probably one of the few serotonergic meds that doesn't routinely cause sexual dysfunction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12784105?dopt=Abstract


----------



## riptide991

R86 said:


> So if I read this correctly:
> 
> 1. Taking Zoloft alone (especially for major depressive disorder, which I don't think I have), is probably about the same as if I took Zoloft plus an atypical antipsychotic;
> 
> 2. If I'm a rat, taking Abilify will improve my performance on various rat-tests; and
> 
> 3. What I really need to do is dress up as a rat and land a gig doing the "sucrose consumption test."
> 
> I'll still be really curious to hear what my psychiatrist thinks about Abilify or Seroquel. My day-to-day life involves feeling threatened by things that aren't really threats, way overblown negative emotional reactions to things that aren't really a big deal, and scurrying home as soon as possible so as to avoid all of the above. How I functioned so well for all these years in spite of all this is beyond me. And if "psychosis" refers to a "separation from reality," then I guess I must plead guilty. I do think the Zoloft has helped, but I can't help feeling that it could be much better if I persevered.


1. Nah, it states in results that both paxil and abilify and sertraline and abilify did better than monotherapy (paxil on its own or Zoloft on its own). It just says that there's nod ifference between abilify/paxil or abilify/Zoloft.



> Although the use of either combination treatment decreased the HAMD17 scores compared to the respective monotherapy, there was no significant difference in HAMD17 scores between the paroxetine plus aripiprazole group and sertraline plus aripiprazole group


2-3. hell yah


----------



## riptide991

So yesterday I thought it was wellbutrin that gave me the restlessness due to the timing and such, but it turns out that the peak plasma level of abilify is 3-5 hours. So today I took it at 8am we shall see what happens in the next 3-5 hours. I actually took 3mg today to see what happens even though I was getting used to 2mg nicely heh.

Still feeling normal after the 3mg abilify. I did notice my heart rate was up. I checked my bp just now and I was normal at 121/78 but my heart rate was 110!!!!! Nuts, and I was like laying in bed napping.

Hmm back down to 80 now. I think it's how I was sleeping. I had my head bent upwards to a point where it may have been cutting off blood supply hehe.


----------



## riptide991

Just got back from jogging. I hate jogging in the cold because I breathe with my mouth and my throat always gets sore. I can't breathe with my nose for some reason. Maybe I have a deviated septum or something. Man I felt like an old man since it's been months. It's funny though how quickly you can adjust to jogging though.

I should note i'm not feeling restless at all. I'm not sure if it's the increase in dosage or my body finally got used to it. I'm feeling really good and calm. My anhedonia seems to be going away too. See I eat so healthy and just barely ever touch bad stuff. Today I had this craving for these awesome 9 whole grain ciabatta buns with this cottage cheese based cream cheese with sliced tomatoes and pepper/salt. I used to eat it as a kid and all of a sudden got this craving which I haven't had in years. Man it was good. :d Still healthy sure but not as super healthy as my typical meals.


----------



## GotAnxiety

You think a micro dose of DXM would be a good add-on for Wellbutrin? Im just curious. NMDA antagonist maybe might be beneficial. i had a horrible dream of dying cause of it. So maybe it might not be a good idea.


----------



## riptide991

Haha I can't advocate something like that. Do it at your own discretion. There's erowid experiences with it too so read up on them.

Man today was a great day, no restlessness the entire day, just smooth sailing.


----------



## ricca91

kehcorpz said:


> Haha I can't advocate something like that. Do it at your own discretion. There's erowid experiences with it too so read up on them.
> 
> Man today was a great day, no restlessness the entire day, just smooth sailing.


Man I'm glad you are doing better. Anhedonia is a *****... Please keep us informed about your progress with Abilify, it's a med which always intrigued me, it's REALLY atypical among antipsychotics with its D2 partial agonism...


----------



## istayhome

GotAnxiety said:


> You think a micro dose of DXM would be a good add-on for Wellbutrin? Im just curious. NMDA antagonist maybe might be beneficial. i had a horrible dream of dying cause of it. So maybe it might not be a good idea.


I actually have been taking therapeutic doses of dxm for the past few days then taking wellbutrin about an hour later. I've noticed no difference. With some drugs the combo does give definite potentiation but I haven't noticed it with the Wellbutrin. I haven't dies either, the're safe to take together. DXM just hasn't potentiated Wellbutrin in my experience.


----------



## istayhome

@kehcorpz Wellbutrin has not been a boner pill for me, which is fine. Constantly being boerfied would be a distraction. I don't know I usually do a lot of physical labor which all of my sexual energy kind of gets diverted to anyways.


----------



## GotAnxiety

@Istayhome Wellbutrin suppose to potentiate the DXM. You got it backwards hehe. I may give it a shot and use it at less then therapeutic levels if that be the case.


----------



## riptide991

@istayhome yah at least it helps with energy right.

@ricca91 yah man it's been nice, today I took 4.5mg we shall see what happens. I did notice my posture has become better since taking it. That one I can't even explain hah.

*Update:* No restlessness on 4.5mg today. I think my anhedonia is disappearing. Today I started digging through my stuff to setup my Wii so I can finish super Mario galaxy 2. Just having that feeling of craving something is great!

Still feeling awesome. Did some serious gaming today haha. Also did some reading, very focused. Here's a good read, long but worth it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC446220/


----------



## riptide991

Took 5mg today. Thus far I'd say i'm a bit sedated. It's not like Remeron sedated but more like something Gabaergic. I am still motivated to clean my house and play some super Mario galaxy 2 hehe. I am going to get started on that after I finish my cup of green tea. 

The wellbutrin I took restored all my energy. That's why these 2 are such a great combo. I cleaned the entire house pretty well. Just have to do the bathrooms but I'm going to eat first.


----------



## istayhome

GotAnxiety said:


> @Istayhome Wellbutrin suppose to potentiate the DXM. You got it backwards hehe. I may give it a shot and use it at less then therapeutic levels if that be the case.


Interesting. I've just been using DXM therapeutically the last few days, 60 mg x2 a day. I also take Wellbutrin daily haven't noticed any of the DXM recreationally effects really... maybe blurred vision. Kind of a funky tired feeling. Like at a low plateau if dxm, I guess that explains it.



kehcorpz said:


> *@istayhome yah at least it helps with energy right.*
> 
> @ricca91 yah man it's been nice, today I took 4.5mg we shall see what happens. I did notice my posture has become better since taking it. That one I can't even explain hah.
> 
> *Update:* No restlessness on 4.5mg today. I think my anhedonia is disappearing. Today I started digging through my stuff to setup my Wii so I can finish super Mario galaxy 2. Just having that feeling of craving something is great!
> 
> Still feeling awesome. Did some serious gaming today haha. Also did some reading, very focused. Here's a good read, long but worth it.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC446220/


Totally. I wish only wish I had solely taken it right from the start. But then I never would have joined this forum. :clap


----------



## riptide991

Day 2 5mg Abilify: Man this stuff makes me pretty sedated at 5mg. I mean it's more like my muscles, legs/arms are soo weak and relaxed. I feel like I'm on morphine or something. This goes away after I take my wellbutrin xl and it kicks in. Im going to start taking them at the same time. Judging from other peoples' experiences this is something that goes away after a while. But yah this stuff is really starting to work on my anhedonia. I once again played super Mario galaxy 2, did some sorting of my data on the computer as well as backups and I started reading again last night! Woot! Oh I also got my mountain bike all ready for use. I have had this urge to go out these days. I'm going to bike to the store today to buy some stuff for my theatre setup to make it more awesome. Yah it's a bit late to get the bike ready as the temperatures are insanely low, but ahh well I'll wear gloves heh.

Here's a cool comparison chart for different antipsychotics, you can see abilify is really way different than all of them.

http://www.psychresidentonline.com/atypical%20antipsychotics.htm


----------



## Mr Bacon

Hey isn't abilify working in the same way as amisulpride? apart from the GHB component of amisulpride, they are both antipsychotics which block dopamine autoreceptors at low dose, aren't they?


----------



## riptide991

Don't know much about amisulpride but they have a lot of similarities including blocking of 5-ht7 receptors. But from what I have read amisulpride seems to poop out on people while abilify most people report it working for years. Just read a bit on amisulpride but it looks to cause an eventual upregulation of autoreceptors which causes the poop out. Abilify causes a desensitization of the autoreceptors.


----------



## riptide991

Man I went to 8 different stores trying to find a cheap hdmi cable. All of them are like 49+. Argued with a guy that they don't make a difference no matter the plating, made him look stupid he didn't even know what amplitude and frequency were hehe. Anyways, Finally got one at walmart for 18 bucks. 4 feet but good enough.

I literally left after my last post so that's 2 hours of bike riding and I still want to do a gym workout haha.


----------



## riptide991

Day 3 5mg Abilify: Woke up at 6am today and got about 6 hours of sleep but I felt so awake and rested. I basically had a tonne of clean energy. I ended up doing a lot today. It's only noon and I have already done an awesome heavy set for arms. I also have cooked some meals to have for the week. Been a very productive day. 
Feeling really good, was listening to faith no more while working out and singing along and dancing lol.


----------



## GotAnxiety

I had to stop Wellbutrin for a bit. i started drinking and smoking and it led into a nasty cycle of using seroquel and gravol too help me sleep my body was releasing so much adrenaline. I could literally feel each dose of Wellbutrin kick in every 8 hours. So enough with that experiment. dxm helped with the alcohol withdraws and calm me down a bit. I was able to quit smoking effortlessly which is kinda weird cause i stopped the Wellbutin.

After 2 days of no wellbutrin. Im back at 150mg for a couple days then ill bump it up to 300mg. Im amazed this stuff has like no withdraws none what so ever. Im planning to try readding 5mg of lexapro with 300mg in future to see if i can get by with that.

I've just been taking it easy till i get readjusted. I manage to beat boarderlands in 20hrs as a soldier lvl 35 i may do a 2nd play thur or try a different class. I haven't touch skyrim or fallout yet. Boarderlands is more like a diablo type RPG rather then more storytalling like skyrim or fallout. But the mechanic are more dynamic then what bethesda pushes out gotta love that unreal engine.


----------



## thundercats

This makes me angry. Why does everybody seem to feel this stupid wellbutrin and I feel nothing at all? It's like no matter what I take nothing works. I cannot even take this stuff seriously anymore. I could as well take sugar pills. The only difference is that sugar pills don't have so many side effects.


----------



## GotAnxiety

@Thundercat 

Wellbutrin has never helped me with my feelings what it has done is help with energy orginization confidients improved sleep and made sex better. The physical aspects i feel it made me stronger in some ways but in a way i feel like i can break out of my own depression with energry and orgnization.

Your gonna need an ssri to alter or numb your feelings. i still feel depressed some times even on wellbutrin.


----------



## thundercats

I have already tried celexa and it also didnt do anything. I quit cold turkey and also felt nothing. I have also tried remeron for 3 months also didn't do anything. And wellbutrin also doesn't give me more "energy" and I also don't have more focus or whatever. I really wonder if the doctors themselves even believe in these drugs or maybe they also think to themselves that this stuff is trash.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> This makes me angry. Why does everybody seem to feel this stupid wellbutrin and I feel nothing at all? It's like no matter what I take nothing works. I cannot even take this stuff seriously anymore. I could as well take sugar pills. The only difference is that sugar pills don't have so many side effects.


Well the wellbutrin was good at giving me some energy and got some of my interests back mainly a bit of gaming, but it's the abilify in my opinion doing the majority of the work. It's really early on but i'm already noticing it.


----------



## GotAnxiety

@Thundercat 

Well it never really did improve my concentration that much. Are you taking 300 yet ? For depression. ive always had success with lexapro every time i take it l can feel it working first day. But unfortunately i dun like the side effects to much. I dunno what else to say ive never tried zoloft or prozac. so i dunno if there any better or if there even a difference. I'd like to find out.

When you were on celexa were you taking anything else to prevent from working? Alot of the times depression is situational. Meaning you will still be depressed if you never change your situation . Medication can be catalyst to open your eyes and help you see what you gotta do but if you dun make the nessary changes it won't work.


----------



## riptide991

only thing thus far that's annoying is dry mouth during sleep. But then again i'm running the heater which the vent is right by my head and that contributes too. Damn winter. Sex drive is a bit decreased but this is considered temporary in 95% of cases. And that's a statistic I made up judging by anecdotal reports I read hehe.


----------



## thundercats

@ gotanxiety

The problem is that I cannot do much about my issues. I can't just change a few things and then everything is fine again. Most of my problems can't be changed or removed.


----------



## riptide991

Most peoples' problems cannot be changed, only the way they look at the problems and deal with them can be changed. I mean Stephen Hawkin should be the most depressed person ever but I bet he has a positive outlook.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Kehcorpz ya abilfy on my med wish list for 2013. It will be expensive and time consuming if it don't work not to mention probably difficult coming off if it don't work. 

How do you like it so far compared to zoloft?

Other meds id like to try for 2013 Prozac Zoloft Remeron Periactin. It would take alot of time trying all these lol it almost unrealistic. So i might not.

@Thundercats my focus has improved but my concentration hasn't that much on Wellbutrin if that even makes senses.

Boarderlands is alot funner and harder the 2nd time thur. It getting pretty intense.

is that true depression is anger turned in on your self?


----------



## riptide991

Even 2nd playthrough was easy for me because I leveled up my character to the max because I did every side quest possible. I put 60 hours into it just for first playthrough hah. I bought mass effect 3 for 9 bucks today. Sale on greenmangaming + coupon code.

Well I think it was the Remeron that did most of the work from my Zoloft/remeron combo. This is part of the reason my doc also agreed on Abilify because it has the same antagonism of some of the receptors like 5-ht2a, 5-ht7 etc.. Probably why i'm experiencing such good results thus far. I haven't noticed anyone mentioning a honeymoon period on abilify. And Crazymed website says 3-7 days to kick in but most likely 2 weeks. I think I'm in the 3-7 days group. It keeps getting better daily so my guess is at some point I will be in full remission.

Oh yah with the dry mouth is also dry sinus, but during the day the dry mouth doesn't bother me but the dry sinus does. I keep dipping my finger under the tap water and then sticking it in my nose for moisture lol. It's kind of annoying and once again the winter heating is not helping.


----------



## GotAnxiety

What so great about 5-ht7? Im kinda naive to that one. Abilify the AP that act like a antidepressant? Less likely to cause diabeties more likely to cause restlessness. Most anti depressants causes relestlessness i think that where they get some of there antidepressant effect from.

Ya i think seroquel does that to my nose some times. Sucks sleeping with a stuff up nose.


----------



## riptide991

Antagonizing 5-ht7 seems to release dopamine in many areas including nucleus accumbens. Risperidone has an even higher affinity for 5-ht7.


----------



## riptide991

Day 4 5mg abilify: Took Benadryl last night so slept a bit longer but still I woke up and ate, did the whole breakfast routine and was feeling bored, so I picked up my bike and went for a long bike ride. Though my ***/prostate hurt from sitting on that hard seat the other day so I gotta let it rest for a bit and not do it again maybe till next week. Feeling good though.

I've been having weird food cravings lately. I still don't like sugar or anything sweet but today for example I really wanted to buy a double sided omelette cooker pan so I can make an omellete sandwich/croissant. I was craving it sooo bad! I also crave just a lot of stuff I loved when I was a kid. I have been eating very strict for years cuz I guess anhedonia killed my taste. Although MJ enhanced it too hehe.

Sex drive seems really dead last 2 days. I mean non existent. And apparently it's one of the rarest of side effects with abilify so it may be due to other reasons. Either way if it is an initial side effect doesn't bother me, as long as it eventually goes away. If it doesn't In a month then dunno what i'll do, but I really like this drug.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Benadryl has a warning for something about enlarge prostate. Maybe it even causes it. Same thing goes for Gravol and DXM. Aspirin maybe able to help or other anti imflammitory. Maybe other AP carry the same risk. im uncertain cause there anti histimines as well.


----------



## The Professor

this drug has made me dumb. As soon as I went on it and to this day, my spelling has become really bad. I have always been a very good speller and it's so weird to actually see how much a drug can directly affect this. Also, my word formulation and just being able to write what I want to say in my head has become harder. It's really frustrating. Also became a little dyslexic when typing. I know it's the nicotinic acetylcholine antagonization, but still I didn't expect wellbutrin to have such bad effects on cognition.


----------



## GotAnxiety

How are you doing man u still alive?


----------



## thundercats

GotAnxiety said:


> How are you doing man u still alive?


I also begin to worry about him. 
He could at least have provided his phone number for cases like this one.


----------



## gilmourr

It's like good will hunting. He just unexpectedly leaves, no advanced warning, without a note. 

REMISSION? ****. I can't wait for rTMS, I have a feeling I'm going to disappear from these forums after that. The rate of success is like 65%, and the non responders have like a 25% reduction in depression. **** is magic.


----------



## thundercats

gilmourr said:


> It's like good will hunting. He just unexpectedly leaves, no advanced warning, without a note.


Why would he do that?

If he doesn't log on the next 2-3 days we gotta do something. Maybe contact the admin, get his IP address and then try to trace it somehow. Do we have hackers here who could do that? Once we know where he lives we can contact an ambulance. But I wonder if this would still make much sense after so many days. Maybe we should act now and not waste further time.


----------



## gilmourr

I can't tell if you're being serious or if that's a joke...

I hope that's a joke..


----------



## thundercats

I'm serious. We gotta act naow!


----------



## GotAnxiety

Haha "he probably wasn't joking". Ya umm like gilmourr said he went on a mission. There the conclusion to the great wellbutrin thread. Quick call 911! get his door kicked in hehe jk.


----------



## riptide991

Haha you guys are funny! Sorry I have been busy. It's weird this Abilify drug makes me want to go out and I'm not at my computer as much! So it's way different than me sitting on SAS hitting refresh constantly being bored out of my *** because I find nothing interesting. I like this stuff so far. I actually switched to night time as it began to have a more sleepy effect on me. Although I stopped Benadryl/zopiclone completely so I didn't sleep very well last night. I will keep you guys updated as it goes along. I think this will be day 8 or 9?

Oh yah and my sex drive sky rocketed again. I do think it was the bike riding that lowered it. I actually would be thinking of lowering wellbutrin XL to 150mg to save some money and to lower my sex drive a bit. But this is something I will decide down the road.


----------



## swim

bupropion was around even before prozac...


----------



## thundercats

kehcorpz said:


> Haha you guys are funny! Sorry I have been busy. It's weird this Abilify drug makes me want to go out and I'm not at my computer as much! So it's way different than me sitting on SAS hitting refresh constantly being bored out of my *** because I find nothing interesting.


Do you not have a blackberry? If not get one. This way you can always throw in a few replies even while bike riding.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> Do you not have a blackberry? If not get one. This way you can always throw in a few replies even while bike riding.


Nah, no job = no wireless service.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121127190016.htm



> Because of a notably high incidence of serious adverse events, quetiapine had to be discontinued midway through the trial. The researchers found that there were significant differences among patients willing to be randomized to different AAPs -- thus, treating clinicians tended to exclude olanzapine and prefer aripiprazole as one of the possible choices in patients with existing metabolic problems. Yet, the different AAP groups did not appreciably differ in most outcome measures.


Funny how blocking dopamine could lead to metabolic syndromes. Damn Seroquel seems nasty.


----------



## GotAnxiety

I see how people can die from playing video games. OMG im glad i got that outta my system. i didn't eat. barely slept or left my room for a week straight. My muscle have atophy and i grew a beard lol. Alright i got my fix somewhat now maybe ill sell that crap and get some clouths and shoes or somethin. Fallout new vegas was the most boringist PoS ever. It felt like it was the left overs from fallout 3 but they were trying to make it like jagged allience or fallout tactics but they could't cause the engine was to lame. But i still kept on playing it. 

Alright despite that backlash im gonna readd the Cipralex ever so slowly. Startng tomorrow. I gotta psychologist appointment so maybe i can get dianosed as crazy or somethin will see. I may restart with 1.25mg then work my way up from there then do 2.5mg. im then gonna go to 5.0mg i don't wanna go any higher then 7.5mg if i do decide to go that high is my limit. I wanna get a feel for each dose and see if i can notice the differences. Im gonna give this SSRI one more good run about. If it doesn't work im gonna go with either Abilify or Prozac. Wellbutrin good but it lacking the restlesness. A little of akathisa isn't such a bad thing.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Seroquel can cause heart rhythm abomornalites. Apparently this can be fatal. i forget the techical name for this but ive had it happen to me twice so far when i was heavily sedated and my heart was beating outta control. It feels like your heart gonna give out cause it beating so hard well sedated.


----------



## riptide991

Yah I was sort of out of service today cuz I have been limping around from the pain my squat day yesterday has caused. It's been tough walking. I went to Costco and usually when cashiers try to strike up convos I kind of just give 1 word responses and avoid them all together. Today I actually had a convo with one and it just happened so naturally.

P.S. I never played like that before, that's just your addictive personality  haha

I preferred New Vegas to fallout 3, though I heard it sucked on xbox. You can't compare anything to PC though.

You mean Tachycardia? Marijuana used to cause that for me. My heart would beat like no tomorrow. Yet I continued to constantly do it. aww shucks.


----------



## GotAnxiety

There was another word for it but ya similar but in the sense it can kill ya. 

Does Abilify feel anything like buspar how it works on ht5a1? I took a high dose of buspar yesterday 40mg just for the hell of it. it worked pretty good made me feel all warm and relaxed but it only lasted like an hour.

i really dun wanna go back on an antidepressant but in the name of progress ill give it a shot . I gave my roommate some he gonna do it with me. He not naive to antidepressants either. He was on celexa befor and i got cipralex stockpiled . I just hate starting and stoping it. if i get destabilized and quit taking them for some reason mostly alcohol and ciggerettes. Guess i gotta avoid that stuff like the plague. 

Hopefully my psychologist can give me a pep talk and psych me up. Hehe and she a chick so that won't be to bad. Just gotta focus on the positives. like my eye sight improving on an SSRI.


----------



## riptide991

It does make you feel warm and relaxed no doubt. It's definitely way stronger than buspar. But yah you need to combine it with something. I may even lower wellbutrin to get my sex drive down and add 50mg of Zoloft or something. Had bad luck with Lexapro, so won't touch celexa.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Ya being the most selective ssri doesn't make it the best. Cipralex causes alot of restlessness that can be hard on the body. Maybe i should go zoloft. I was reading this study on antidepressants effect on alcohol withdraws. It showed that prozac reduce hyper motor activity but cipralex had not as much good effect but somewhat useful. Quite interesting it compared alot of different antidepressants.


----------



## thundercats

I'm glad I'm off the damn wellbutrin.
At least for a few days now I can drink lots of wine before I start with my new drug.

My sweet wine. It's always been good to me, unlike those disappointing antidepressants. :drunk


----------



## riptide991

Which drug you starting thunder?

Man I woke up today my legs are sooo sore I can't walk. I am in pain haha. Hope it goes away as I attempt to use my legs more.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Hehe maybe dun go so hard on your legs and recovery would be quicker. how offen you train them btw? I feel like working out today get some euporia going we might go check out this new gym with lots of girls in it. This might be fun


----------



## GotAnxiety

lol thundercats you traitor. It not the antidepressants working for you. Its you not working for the antidepressants hehe.


----------



## riptide991

My problem is that my strength has gone through the roof since abilify and I haven't trained in ages cz I've been too on and off. So this was my first leg workout back the other day. I only train legs once a week. I do that for any body part.

Since dopamine is the motor neuron that could explain a lot. Dopamine is what allows you to recruit more muscle fibers during lifts.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Sweet so major strength increase with that drug. Ya i like doing once a week training i got results with that consistency and optimal long peroid recovery time.

Does abilify lower prolactin or raise it? Does it even antagonize any dopamine recepter? Or is it just straight agonist?

im trying to figure these out .


----------



## riptide991

well I work out 4 times a week but i'll do splits. Like Chest/back one day, shoulders/triceps, legs, etc.. Each day a different muscle group.

Yah it is a partial agonist in low doses for D2 receptors. Once you cross 10mg/day you start getting antagonistic behavior. I think 15mg and it starts antagonizing d2. It also starts touching D3 receptors at higher doses. Otherwise it doesn't touch anything but D2. D2 is found in high quantities in the reward part of our brain.


----------



## GotAnxiety

So your not gonna go any higher then 5mg then?

Ya my psych doc convince me. i dun need an ssri were gonna work on some coping strategies. Ive been feeling real positive now i got off the video game. I guess i rekindle my old video gaming spirit lol so i know where and what im coming from. No more 36 hour gaming straight no food that just torture.

Does Abilify make you angry? How are you mood wise?


----------



## R86

Still very interested in this drug as I continue to feel that the 100 mg Zoloft is a step in the right direction, but not enough against these intrusive thoughts. I'm hoping that my pdoc won't just try to raise me to 150 mg Zoloft, but will instead add either Wellbutrin or Abilify (or possibly Seroquel). Of these it seems like Abilify has the best chance of helping. And luckily it isn't as expensive as I expected through my provider -- though of course still more expensive than Zoloft or Ambien.

I have discontinued the "Horny Goat Weed" after concluding that it was at best doing nothing. I'm also discontinuing benzodiazepines, even at low doses, except when absolutely necessary. I'm kind of hoping for a regimen like the following, though of course I'll defer to my pdoc.

Zoloft 100 mg per morning
Abilify 5-10 mg? per morning or night depending on how sleepy it makes me
Trazodone 50 mg per night

Xanax 0.25-0.5 mg ONLY IF I'm having a panic attack (which is rare)

Ambien 5 mg 1-2x per night ONLY IF I can't fall and/or stay asleep

Geez, one would almost think I'm a drug user. :sus


----------



## Mr Bacon

Hey guys, allow me to join the bupropion train 

I went to my GP, and made up a nice touching story where I'm a chronic smoker who has desperately been trying to escape the grips of nicotine addiction. After I told him that the nicotine patches never worked (in my imagination, naturally), the guy prescribed me some Zyban LP, which is the equivalent of Wellbutrin SR.

Today is my second day on it, 150mg. The first day I think I felt slightly better mood-wise, I attribute it to placebo. Absolutely no side effects so far, I'm still sleeping 10 hours a day, I'm still very hungry, and my mouth is still very watery.

I'm supposed to wait 1 week before upping the dose, but considering I haven't felt much I might raise the dose to 300mg in 1 or 2 days.


----------



## riptide991

@Gotanxiety, I don't plan to go higher than 5mg. This drug has an insane half life so it takes about 2-3 weeks just to reach steady state. Only after then can you truly judge it but you gotta give it a month after that time. It has a 4 day half life while Prozac has a 9 day half life. Prozac takes 4-5 weeks to reach steady state. That's why they usually say give Prozac at least 8-9 weeks. This one should be given at least 6-7 weeks. It doesn't make me angry. If anything it relaxes me more.

@r86 yah for intrusive thoughts you may need a higher dosage than 5mg, but try 200mg Zoloft first if your doc is willing. Also read above that to notice full effect of 5mg you need 2-3 weeks.

@Mrbacon sweet congrats, keep in mind that wellbutrin I noticed it working best in the 2 month period at 300mg.


----------



## R86

kehcorpz said:


> 200mg Zoloft


I hate to think of what the um ... "side-effects" will be like then. 

But if a higher dose of Zoloft is sometimes indicated for avoidant personality disorder, then I'll consider it. I'd rather be on as few drugs as possible. The intrusive thoughts include things like painful/embarrassing memories coming up for no reason, and also weird stuff like music going through my head All. The. Time. True, I've always been a musician, but how many times do I need to work out bass lines and chord progressions for every song I know?

That's why I keep coming back to Abilify, since if I recall correctly AvPD is more to the "psychosis" side than to the "anxiety" side. One website even compares it to bipolar disorder, and there definitely is an up-and-down trait to my experience. I wonder if Seroquel would also be a live option? By my memory it works quite differently from Abilify. I would imagine the shorter half-life is also a problem.


----------



## GotAnxiety

@kehcorpz does the 5mg abilify pills break in half? How much is the cost for a one month supplie?

Has it effected your intellence at all?

hehe everytime i read about it look more 
appealing. 

Don't think i got the capital to pick it up this month. The xbox sunk my battleship. 

@R86
Seroquel would be a cheaper option. But to me i feel it slow down my metabolizim and kinda make me lazy the next day. So i use it as an emerency sleeping pill. But who knows maybe i just gotta build a tolarance to it. I haven't tried taking it daily yet.


----------



## riptide991

@r86 sounds like OCD and Zoloft at 200mg is used for OCD. I've used it no side effects. Definitely killed my ocd. I used to always look in the mirror constantly it was so repetitive and time consuming. Seroquel is one of those pills that apparently is good at causing metabolic problems. 

@gotanxiety. You need a pill cutter. It's pretty expensive. Here in Canada 120 dollars for 30 5mg pills. Though from all the online Canadian pharmacies i'm looking at the 10mg pills seem to be cheaper. I figure i'll get my doctor to prescribe 15 10mg pills and I'll cut them in half using my pill cutter. You can get a pill cutter anywhere in a drug store. 

My intellence? Well I do have an Intel cpu  

But yah it has made my memory much better that's for sure, especially word recall.


----------



## R86

I definitely have a touch of OCD in there, but (realizing that all of us have a mix of symptoms/disorders) if I had to pick one condition as the bulk of my daily experience, it would be AvPD. I don't know if the description of AvPD on this website is 100% scholarly and accurate, but it could have been written to describe me.

I have heard that Seroquel (although cheaper) is very sedating, whereas it seems from kehcorpz's experience that Abilify is if anything the opposite. I too seem to hear more complaints about weight gain on Seroquel than on Abilify, but I guess as always Your Mileage May Vary.


----------



## gilmourr

do you ever get nausea anymore from wellbutrin?

I've thought about it, but it would definitely have to be with a SSRI or TCA or something since my SERT levels always feel low


----------



## jim_morrison

kehcorpz said:


> Funny how blocking dopamine could lead to metabolic syndromes. Damn Seroquel seems nasty.





GotAnxiety said:


> Seroquel would be a cheaper option. But to me i feel it slow down my metabolizim and kinda make me lazy the next day. So i use it as an emerency sleeping pill. But who knows maybe i just gotta build a tolarance to it. I haven't tried taking it daily yet.


Seroquel is a pretty weak dopamine blocker until you hit a high dose, I think most of it's 'tiring out' effect is primarily due to the fact that it strongly blocks some receptors associated with wakefulness such as histamine, alpha 1-adrenaline, M1-muscarinic and so on.

http://www.cnsspectrums.com/userdocs/articleimages/146/1208CNS_Stahl_fig6big.jpg


----------



## hannahrose1101

I started taking bupropion xl 150 mg oct 29, i have also been on adderall XR 20 mg for a couple months i absolutely love it but i know that's not a good thing, it hasn't been as strong after my recent experimentation with smoking crystal meth for a week after i broke up with my boyfriend of 3 years; i was on adderall XR and zoloft 50mg at the time this was at the beginning of august. I've noticed that I've been really depressed and have been having more and more panic attacks and becoming increasingly anxious all the time, i've been dealing with it by sleeping way too much , the only that got me out of bed when i was on zoloft was adderall, then i switched to paroxetine HCL 40mg sep 27 and i couldn't get out of bed for days even if i took 40mg of Adderall XR,. At first the bupropion made me feel positive but then i noticed that my anxiety was getting crazy and i couldn't go to work becuase of panic attacks, i still feel strange and my docter upped my dosage of bupropion XL to 300mg two days ago, i have a lot of energy but i still rarely leave my apartment even though i cant sleep at all, ive noticed that it has made me think about sex all the time which is something i am not used too and i really dont like at all


----------



## GotAnxiety

Make sure you take paxil the same time everyday it really important cause it can cause withdrawal symptoms like the ones you mention.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Darnit alcohol keeps me awake. I went to the bar with my friends and i was only gonna drink pop. But he kept on pouring shots into my drink. Now my whole day tanked cause i took 2 25mg of seroquel. Just wanted to be social but even that sabotaging. Oh well maybe i should just make more mature friends or somethin . He pretends to take the shot then like oops dumps it in my drink lame. Screw the bar seen it so cheese .


----------



## riptide991

R86 said:


> I definitely have a touch of OCD in there, but (realizing that all of us have a mix of symptoms/disorders) if I had to pick one condition as the bulk of my daily experience, it would be AvPD. I don't know if the description of AvPD on this website is 100% scholarly and accurate, but it could have been written to describe me.


Well, get an official diagnosis. Too many self diagnose hehe.



gilmourr said:


> do you ever get nausea anymore from wellbutrin?
> 
> I've thought about it, but it would definitely have to be with a SSRI or TCA or something since my SERT levels always feel low


I never got Nausea from Wellbutrin, I got it from Buspar. After stopping buspar it went away completely. Abilify doesn't give me nausea even though it works on 5-ht1a and is even more powerful at this receptor.



jim_morrison said:


> Seroquel is a pretty weak dopamine blocker until you hit a high dose, I think most of it's 'tiring out' effect is primarily due to the fact that it strongly blocks some receptors associated with wakefulness such as histamine, alpha 1-adrenaline, M1-muscarinic and so on.
> 
> http://www.cnsspectrums.com/userdocs/articleimages/146/1208CNS_Stahl_fig6big.jpg


Yah even abilify hits histamine at higher doses. That's why people get really fatigued when going over 10mg.



hannahrose1101 said:


> I started taking bupropion xl 150 mg oct 29, i have also been on adderall XR 20 mg for a couple months i absolutely love it but i know that's not a good thing, it hasn't been as strong after my recent experimentation with smoking crystal meth for a week after i broke up with my boyfriend of 3 years; i was on adderall XR and zoloft 50mg at the time this was at the beginning of august. I've noticed that I've been really depressed and have been having more and more panic attacks and becoming increasingly anxious all the time, i've been dealing with it by sleeping way too much , the only that got me out of bed when i was on zoloft was adderall, then i switched to paroxetine HCL 40mg sep 27 and i couldn't get out of bed for days even if i took 40mg of Adderall XR,. At first the bupropion made me feel positive but then i noticed that my anxiety was getting crazy and i couldn't go to work becuase of panic attacks, i still feel strange and my docter upped my dosage of bupropion XL to 300mg two days ago, i have a lot of energy but i still rarely leave my apartment even though i cant sleep at all, ive noticed that it has made me think about sex all the time which is something i am not used too and i really dont like at all


Yah Adderall is known for causing depression in people who never even had it. I imagine a good amount of receptors become down-regulated and more and more is needed. My doctor wouldn't even hear of touching that stuff.



GotAnxiety said:


> Darnit alcohol keeps me awake. I went to the bar with my friends and i was only gonna drink pop. But he kept on pouring shots into my drink. Now my whole day tanked cause i took 2 25mg of seroquel. Just wanted to be social but even that sabotaging. Oh well maybe i should just make more mature friends or somethin . He pretends to take the shot then like oops dumps it in my drink lame. Screw the bar seen it so cheese .


You need new friends. That sounds like an *******. Who the hell does that to someone? Wow. I would knock him out if he did that to me. Seriously it would infuriate me.


----------



## Mr Bacon

Hey kehcorpz, would you say abilify is more powerful than the wellbutrin alone? Which one seems to help more in terms of anhedonia?


----------



## riptide991

Wellbutrin helped a bit with anhedonia but after 3 months (1 month 150mg and 2 months 300mg) it just wasn't doing enough. I think abilify really was the one that helped the most. But I can't say it would do the same on its own cuz ive never had it on its own. It could be that it's simply giving wellbutrin a push. Abilify is definitely not a drug you want to do on its own. Even Bristol Myers said it needs to be paired.


----------



## SomniferumPapi

For anyone that's tried both, does wellbutrin feel like tramadol without the opioid feel?


----------



## SomniferumPapi

kehcorpz said:


> Wellbutrin helped a bit with anhedonia but after 3 months (1 month 150mg and 2 months 300mg) it just wasn't doing enough. I think abilify really was the one that helped the most. But I can't say it would do the same on its own cuz ive never had it on its own. It could be that it's simply giving wellbutrin a push. Abilify is definitely not a drug you want to do on its own. Even Bristol Myers said it needs to be paired.


its because you gained tolerance, it happens with every drug. I bet if you were to skip a dose,you would appreciate the feeling more. Trust


----------



## riptide991

SomniferumPapi said:


> its because you gained tolerance, it happens with every drug. I bet if you were to skip a dose,you would appreciate the feeling more. Trust


Nope. Like I said I didn't feel anything till the end of month 2 on 300mg. Nothing before that. Plus it has a 26-43% dopamine transporter occupancy, that's not enough to cause any tolerance.


----------



## SomniferumPapi

GotAnxiety said:


> Darnit alcohol keeps me awake. I went to the bar with my friends and i was only gonna drink pop. But he kept on pouring shots into my drink. Now my whole day tanked cause i took 2 25mg of seroquel. Just wanted to be social but even that sabotaging. Oh well maybe i should just make more mature friends or somethin . He pretends to take the shot then like oops dumps it in my drink lame. Screw the bar seen it so cheese .


did you know seroquel can keep you awake also? It can go both ways


----------



## SomniferumPapi

kehcorpz said:


> Nope. Like I said I didn't feel anything till the end of month 2 on 300mg. Nothing before that. Plus it has a 26-43% dopamine transporter occupancy, that's not enough to cause any tolerance.


Have you tried tramadol? Is it similar? The snri effect i mean


----------



## baxman

um Tramadol feels nothing like welbutrin.there is no similarity imo


----------



## riptide991

SomniferumPapi said:


> Have you tried tramadol? Is it similar? The snri effect i mean


Completely different drugs. Tramadol is a serotonin release agent as well as norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. It also has some opioid activity. The only similarity is reuptake of norepinephrine.


----------



## gilmourr

Where do you think you are on your scale of remission? I might do zoloft and wellbutrin if Nardil doesn't stop giving me shivers and all my tests come back negative.

I think serotonin and dopamine are what I need as NE based drugs always gave me horrible side effects.

- Cymbalta (suicidal)
- Effexor stabbing chest pains
- Parnate (hypothermia and complete lethargy, worse side effects, even worse than the suicidal ideations. No idea how bad it is to be like hypothermic in summer at 30 degrees with 5 wool blankets around you).

Though it's SO hard to find drugs that don't work on NE but work on dop and SERT, probably because dopamine gets converted into NE I heard.

What seems like the best move if Zoloft, Remeron and Nardil have all worked on depression in the past? I haven't tried luvox, clomipramine, imipramine, amitryptiline, moclob and I haven't augmented essentially anything ever.


----------



## riptide991

Remission: Well I'd say 70%. Though the other day I started reading a book on programming and that's when I know things are starting to get better. But yah we will see. I haven't even been on abilify 2 weeks to even reach steady state yet hehe. I may lower wellbutrin to 150mg and add 50mg of Zoloft. I still have a good month supply of Zoloft so it would be cheaper for me instead of wellbutrin at 300mg. I really want to keep the abilify although it's super expensive. 

I'd go for Zoloft/Abilify if I were you. Although I loved Remeron it is known for its poop out.


----------



## riptide991

So yah I popped a Zoloft today and one of my pupils became dilated. This seems to be a reaction I get from Zoloft. It's only my left pupil but it remains dilated. It's so weird. It reacts properly to light though. I recall seeing some portraits of myself at a young age at like 8 years old and also had this one dilated pupil. So it may be that Zoloft is just bringing out something genetic.


----------



## SomniferumPapi

kehcorpz said:


> Completely different drugs. Tramadol is a serotonin release agent as well as norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. It also has some opioid activity. The only similarity is reuptake of norepinephrine.


Which is why i specifically asked about the SNRI effects


----------



## thundercats

I wouldn't dare simply adding other drugs without discussing it with the doctor even though I could have done it. I could have added remeron to wellbutrin and then see what happens. In terms of gathering data this would have been helpful. But I didn't like remeron cause it always made me so tired.


----------



## gilmourr

Lol, you just "popped" a zoloft with wellbutrin and abilify? Haven't even let the abilify level out yet. TAKE THE 70% REMISSION AND RUN WITH IT


----------



## hannahrose1101

kehcorpz said:


> Yah Adderall is known for causing depression in people who never even had it. I imagine a good amount of receptors become down-regulated and more and more is needed. My doctor wouldn't even hear of touching that stuff.


so is adderall bad for depression?


----------



## GotAnxiety

@Hannahrose Yes. all amphetmines antagonize the serotonin recepter causing low serotonin by increasing dopamine.


----------



## thundercats

Cant they just upregulate again after downregulating? 

I also have some ritalin at home but never dared to try it. The side effects list was probably as scary as the one of lyrica. :afr


----------



## GotAnxiety

@Thundercats It may not be so simple as a baby being born into this world we spend are whole lifes growing are brain then we take something that neurotoxic and damage it. im pretty sure any drug we take effect gene expression look how ssri can cause pssd for expamle. I know taking Dexedrine as a kid change me permamently. The brainis very plastic recovery is possible you just need to achieve a natural high and gogo. just once you get into the zone don't lose it. Look at fergie she used to do meth and crap she looks great now. 

The more i move around the happier i get. The more conversations i have and being around others make me feel good. I think talking releases endorpins to so talk away.


----------



## thundercats

I think it's irresponsible to give crap like amphetamine to children. How sick is that? Why not directly put those supposedly hyperactive children in a coma to make them shut up?


----------



## GotAnxiety

It is irresponilble. Unethical. It is just a scam to push drugs. Alot of money involved. The kid maybe hyperactive but placing him on a drug is gonna create even more conditions. Where the common sense in that. Now little johnny has anxiety and depression tack onto his add. Yeah you might as well just kill your child. Be like sorry son. your no good now he must die. Instead of permamently screwing up his life even more by taking away his childhood. Hypothetically speaking of course.


----------



## thundercats

That makes me angry. So many silly moms just put their children on stimulants in order to shut them up. Maybe the reason why their children are hyperactive in the first place is because they couldn't stop smoking during pregnancy or because they only ate trash the whole time and now wonder why the child isn't acting normal.


----------



## riptide991

gilmourr said:


> Lol, you just "popped" a zoloft with wellbutrin and abilify? Haven't even let the abilify level out yet. TAKE THE 70% REMISSION AND RUN WITH IT


I just wanted to see how I would feel with my serotonin increased. SSRIs increase serotonin right away so I can actually feel it within an hour or two. But yah woke up with a headache so experiment terminated 

Oh wait just had breakfast headache is gone, I have this warm feeling in my head now. Might be the olives or the cottage cheese which contains a good amount of tyrosine/taurine.



SomniferumPapi said:


> Which is why i specifically asked about the SNRI effects


Well it's just NRI, and yah it gives you energy.



hannahrose1101 said:


> so is adderall bad for depression?


In the end yes. It release dopamine from the vesicles which is more powerful than your typical reuptake inhibitor. A lot of the postsynaptic receptors will down-regulate so dopamine will have less and less of an effect on them. Think of Adderall in the same way you would think of cocaine. It's simply a weaker form of cocaine.



thundercats said:


> That makes me angry. So many silly moms just put their children on stimulants in order to shut them up. Maybe the reason why their children are hyperactive in the first place is because they couldn't stop smoking during pregnancy or because they only ate trash the whole time and now wonder why the child isn't acting normal.


That's because you can't spank kids  When I was young and became hyperactive, I got the spanking of a lifetime and all of a sudden I would stop being hyperactive. Old European values always win hehe.


----------



## istayhome

thundercats said:


> That makes me angry. So many silly moms just put their children on stimulants in order to shut them up. Maybe the reason why their children are hyperactive in the first place is because they couldn't stop smoking during pregnancy or because they only ate trash the whole time and now wonder why the child isn't acting normal.


Dr. Peter Breggin is a huge quack but I actually agree with him in regards to ADHD. Kids are hyper by nature. Expecting them to sit and be highly attentive for 8 hours a day in class is pretty stupid. Let kids be active and let's learn to teach in a way that involves activity. Work with the nature of children instead of against it.

@Thundercats, you get angry about everything, take up tai chi or something. Learn to relax.


----------



## istayhome

kehcorpz said:


> That's because you can't spank kids  When I was young and became hyperactive, I got the spanking of a lifetime and all of a sudden I would stop being hyperactive. Old European values always win hehe.


Yep back to the days of spankings, having my mouth washed out with soap, doing extra chores, all those good child abuse things. Kids don't actually listen everyone knows that. The only way to teach them is a soft punch to the gut. I consider teaching a child to very close to training a dog. When I was young this philosophy worked very well with dating girls too, they tended to respond in much the same way as training a dog.

*No offense to the more mature women out there, not how I used the word girls. When it come to people I treat both sexes the same way. Given my social anxiety, that usually means I avoid almost everyone :clap


----------



## istayhome

GotAnxiety said:


> It is irresponilble. Unethical. It is just a scam to push drugs. Alot of money involved. The kid maybe hyperactive but placing him on a drug is gonna create even more conditions. Where the common sense in that. Now little johnny has anxiety and depression tack onto his add. Yeah you might as well just kill your child. Be like sorry son. your no good now he must die. Instead of permamently screwing up his life even more by taking away his childhood. Hypothetically speaking of course.


Here in Oregon, USA, Medical Marijuana is legal. I just read an article in the paper that a 7 year old girl is using medical marijuana by eating potent edible treats. So she under the influence 24/7. She is recovering from Leukemia she is guaranteed to survive and live a normal life. Well who knows how much all that cannabis will mess with her ever-growing and all-important brain. It's cool that she's been happily stoned during her recovery instead of painfully nauseous. But a seven year old kid under the constant influence of a high dose of cannabis for a couple years certainly won't help her brain. That seems pretty eff'd to me. Sh's already set up to struggle, why make her retarded in the process. She is quoted as saying she is happy and play's video games all day alone in her room. *awesome*


----------



## istayhome

thundercats said:


> I wouldn't dare simply adding other drugs without discussing it with the doctor even though I could have done it. I could have added remeron to wellbutrin and then see what happens. In terms of gathering data this would have been helpful. But I didn't like remeron cause it always made me so tired.


You seem to research everything to death. I think you could probably mess around with some of these pretty benign drugs on your own. Especially because you're talking about drugs that you already have experience with. From what you've told us, you see to know more than your doctor does anyways. So it's not often necessary to discuss something with a doctor when you already know it is fine. Getting a second opinion enough but having a parrot (your doctor) just repeat what you told him is not necessary.



GotAnxiety said:


> @Thundercats It may not be so simple as a baby being born into this world we spend are whole lifes growing are brain then we take something that neurotoxic and damage it. im pretty sure any drug we take effect gene expression look how ssri can cause pssd for expamle. I know taking Dexedrine as a kid change me permamently. The brainis very plastic recovery is possible you just need to achieve a natural high and gogo. just once you get into the zone don't lose it. Look at fergie she used to do meth and crap she looks great now.
> 
> The more i move around the happier i get. The more conversations i have and being around others make me feel good. I think talking releases endorpins to so talk away.


Yeah, this is true and interesting. Once I quit pretty high dosses of prolonged opiate use cold turkey. But I really managed to not have any withdrawals by bicycling 8 hours a day. enough exercise to get the needed endorphin's while my brain readjusted.

The only thing is that in the past I was a competitive cyclist (Bicycling was an integral role in managing my anxiety). Bicycling Became like a drug to me. My anti-anxiety drug. But I kept developing a tolerance. 20 miles/day,then 40,50, 60, 80, 100, 120, 150, 200.

Once I got to 200 and my anxiety kept coming back I gave up on cycling as a solution. It's strange considering I have never had to raise my dose of Valium and Xanax in 3 years. But in one year of cycling my tolerance to it's beneficial effects raised very rapidly. So much for a natural solution.:um

It sucks because even now after not cycling for a long time I don't get the benefits from it again, same thing with walking and hiking which all used to help me a lot.

I still bicycle for exercise and to get around but it I don't feel invigoration or enjoyment anymore it's a damn shame and I really can't figure it out. My depression/anxiety have always been around and cycling has always helped it but then one day Bicycling just stopped helping .


----------



## riptide991

200 miles.... gee that's how many miles I do in my computer chair every day.


----------



## riptide991

Day 13 abilify 5mg: 1 more day till steady state is reached. I finally recovered from my extremely sore legs and had a shoulder workout today. I could have done it earlier but I wanted my body to recover since the pain was so bad there must have been a lot of muscle tearing. I mean my legs were swollen the entire time as if I had a major pump. The shoulder workout rocked as have all the workouts thus far. Doing really well and my anhedonia seems to be disappearing a bit more every day. I just get excited over little things that I never did. Like I bought a pair of these really warm pants and put them on and it felt so good and I was so happy. lol.


----------



## riptide991

reading:



> Aripiprazole, a "Dopamine-Serotonin System Stabilizer" in the Treatment of Psychosis
> 
> Borwin Bandelow and Andreas Meier From the Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, The University of Göttingen, Germany


Basically this goes into detail about how if serotonin/dopamine are low abilify increases release if high it decreases release. It essentially stabilizes your levels of neurotransmitters... duh...



> In an open-label study comparing olanzapine to aripiprazole, aripiprazole *showed beneficial effects on cognitive dysfunctions in schizophrenic patients*. Also, aripiprazole was effective in patients with mania. Under aripiprazole the rate of extrapyramidal side effects was less than under haloperidol treatment, and did not differ from the placebo and risperidone arms. Clinically significant weight gain occurred less frequently with aripiprazole than with olanzapine. Aripiprazole also demonstrated a significant reduction in cholesterol levels, while haloperidol and olanzapine increased cholesterol levels in comparative trials. Prolactin levels in- creased 5-fold over placebo levels with risperidone, no increase was seen with aripiprazole.


I don't have schizophrenia but I do notice beneficial effects on cognition.


----------



## GotAnxiety

Holy crap im like denis the menace today. Buddy that pour shots into my drink was talking **** about my roommate and i told her then she called him. Now he wants to fight me. he like 250+lb ex mma fighter. I don't care im not scared of him. I hate people that think there all that. I've been in enough pain and took enough **** to put up with goons like that. Plus he pour shots into my drink **** em. Im not scared to die either. I kinda welcome it.

I highly doubt anything would happen most people are all talk.


----------



## riptide991

Tell him you're no longer in high school.


----------



## GotAnxiety

I blame it on the Wellbutrin sometimes im blunt and say whats on my mind without thinking about the negative effect it can have and i always tell the truth it kinda makes me talk alot regardless of peoples feelings hehe.

@kehcorpz i got a couple questions for ya. 

Would you say abilify increased your exercise consistency?

What side effects are you getting at 5mg?

Has it made you more soicially outgoing?

Which ones easier starting an antidepressant or Abilify?

And for the finally question has it improved your sleep?

Thanks for answering all my question's.


----------



## riptide991

@gotanxiety, The last time I was this consistent with training was in college. This definitely keeps me going to the gym constantly! Even though now that it's stable at 2 weeks and I feel a bit more relaxed than stimulated I'm still working out and still have my strength.

That's just the thing, I haven't had any side effects except the initial ones at 2mg with being restless. Right now I'm super calm and I am sleeping normally. I actually have started taking it at night at around 8pm and go to bed at around 10-11pm. 

I'm definitely more social. One of my friends that has stuck around with me even though I tried to alienate myself has been even mentioning how I'm more conversational as I have been messaging him and talking to him. My parents also think I'm more social. I'm also drinking 3 tablespoons of cocoa powder mixed with warm water twice a day. This raises PEA and anandamide so who knows this may be assisting.

Antidepressants have a way of knocking you out faster, i'd say abilify has been the most side effect pill I've taken thus far. I haven't even gotten dry mouth which I usually get with everything. Though if you have anxiety the initial restlessness may not be great for some people, but if you tough it out it's worth it. For me it was just me going out and doing stuff or i'd go nuts.


----------



## baxman

^^have you had any luck with eliminating or reducing social anhedonia?i have become more withdrawn over past few years.i have never been a real social person but nowadays, i find i simply do not enjoy socializing.i tried amisulpride which didnt do much at all.welbutrin helps me be more social in social situations but i find i dont enjoy it any more than i usually would.i cannot figure out if this is just how i am or if it can be corrected.just curious if you guys have had any more luck in this department.


----------



## istayhome

^^^I've never in my life enjoyed being social, I just thought that was normal. That it's a chore to socialize for everyone. People actually enjoy being social, odd it is, to me.


----------



## riptide991

baxman said:


> ^^have you had any luck with eliminating or reducing social anhedonia?i have become more withdrawn over past few years.i have never been a real social person but nowadays, i find i simply do not enjoy socializing.i tried amisulpride which didnt do much at all.welbutrin helps me be more social in social situations but i find i dont enjoy it any more than i usually would.i cannot figure out if this is just how i am or if it can be corrected.just curious if you guys have had any more luck in this department.


Yes read my reply to gotanxiety 
I have these weird urges to talk more. This is only 2 weeks in though.



istayhome said:


> ^^^I've never in my life enjoyed being social, I just thought that was normal. That it's a chore to socialize for everyone. People actually enjoy being social, odd it is, to me.


I know when I was young I was social but at some point it became pointless to me as I had seen it as an old survival mechanism from times when being in social groups meant survival. Nowadays there's no reason to be social other than getting ahead in a professional career.


----------



## riptide991

If I do end up lowering wellbutrin I may start taking DHEA as there's so many studies with so many benefits. Since Wellbutrin increases DHEA I figure going down will lower it a bit. Here's one showing its benefits on liver regeneration

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10576554 


> These results indicate that DHEA itself promotes the liver regenerative process after partial hepatectomy in rats.


----------



## thundercats

DHEA can also be converted to estrogen. I dont really know if it makes much sense to take it.
Maybe you lack testosterone. Why not get it tested and if low get on testosterone? Testosterone is much less scary than abilify. People have been using and abusing testosterone for ages.


----------



## riptide991

Nah my testosterone is normal, I had all my blood tests done. Even my dhea was normal. It's just better to have high normal DHEA as it not only gets converted to testosterone or estrogen but actually used for many processes. It is the youth hormone as they put it.  I wouldn't take more than 25mg. Very small compared to what most people take at 100mg.



> *Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) augmentation in the management of schizophrenia symptomatology.*
> 
> Strous RD.
> *Source*
> 
> Chronic Inpatient Department, Beer Yaakov Mental Health Center, Sackler School of Medicine, Tel Aviv University, Beer Yaakov, Israel.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> Neurosteroids, such as dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and DHEA-sulfate (the most abundant steroid in the body), regulate neuronal functions by influencing neuronal excitability. Prominent effects are exerted on the gamma-aminobutyric (GABA) receptors. DHEA has demonstrated efficacy in improvement of mood in humans, especially in middle-aged and elderly individuals. In the author's study, administering DHEA to patients with schizophrenia who had moderate to severe negative symptoms and who were maintained on antipsychotic medications induced significant improvement, more so in women and corresponding to increased plasma levels of DHEA and DHEA-S. Possible mechanisms of action include enhanced dopamine release, enhanced responsiveness at the N-methyl D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor, facilitation of sigma receptor activity, selective potentiation of dopaminergic neurotransmission, and a general anxiolytic action. Side effects are reviewed, and the currently experimental status of DHEA augmentation is emphasized.





> *DHEA lessens depressive-like behavior via GABA-ergic modulation of the mesolimbic system.*
> 
> Genud R, Merenlender A, Gispan-Herman I, Maayan R, Weizman A, Yadid G.
> *Source*
> 
> The Mina & Everard Goodman Faculty of Life Sciences and The Leslie and Susan Gonda (Goldschmied) Multidisciplinary Brain Research Center, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> Alterations in the levels of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in the brain can allosterically modulate gamma-aminobutyric-acid-type-A (GABA(A)R), N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDAR), and Sigma-1 (sigma 1R) receptors. In humans, DHEA has antidepressive effects; however, the mechanism is unknown. We examined whether alterations in DHEA also occur in an animal model of depression, the Flinders-sensitive-line (FSL) rats, with the intention of determining the brain site of DHEA action and its antidepressant mechanism. We discovered that DHEA levels were lower in some brain regions involved with depression of FSL rats compared to Sprague-Dawley (SD) controls. Moreover, DHEA (1 mg/kg IP for 14 days)-treated FSL rats were more mobile in the forced swim test than FSL controls. In the NAc and VTA, significant changes were observed in the levels of the delta-subunit of GABA(A), but not of sigma 1R mRNA, in FSL rats compared to SD rats. The delta-subunit controls the sensitivity of the GABA(A)R to the neurosteroid. Indeed, treatment (14 days) of FSL rats with the GABA(A) agonist muscimol (0.5 mg/kg), together with DHEA (a negative modulator of GABA(A)), reversed the effect of DHEA on immobility in the swim test. Perfusion of DHEA sulfate (DHEAS) (3 nM and 30 nM for 14 days) into the VTA and NAc of FSL rats improved their performance in the swim test for at least 3 weeks post-treatment. Our results imply that alterations in DHEA are involved in the pathophysiology of depression and that the antidepressant action of DHEA is mediated via GABA(A)Rs in the NAc and VTA.


----------



## thundercats

I have had really high DHEA levels a few times in the past likely due to stress and I can't say that I felt anything.


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I have had really high DHEA levels a few times in the past likely due to stress and I can't say that I felt anything.


No way to really measure DHEA. You can measure DHEA-S but there's no telling if your body is converting it back to DHEA for proper use.


----------



## baxman

istayathome-same here and i think its very hard to tell the difference between being introverted, just not wanting to socialize and being socially anxious.

"nowadays there's no reason to be social other than getting ahead in a professional career"

well so ok you obviously have not solved the social anhedonia issue then.one post said you are more social now than you were before and now you say the only purpose of socializing is to get farther in your career.most people i know like to socialize, they will sit and talk to each other for quite awhile.they will call each other up and just talk.they arent socially anhedonic, with me there always has to be a strong purpose in order to socialize.


----------



## riptide991

No, I'm simply stating that today's day in age there's no actual purpose to being social like there was in the times where groups of people would have a better chance of survival. This gave you reason to be social. Although those humans didn't do it for that purpose but simply genes evolved to provide reward and as such it drove them to social behavior and as such ensured survival.

Today we have created a society where survival doesn't depend on that. If we were to evolve today we may not really all evolve to get this reward. I'm not saying we are more evolved, we are probably just broken. The only thing that it could still be used in terms of "survival" would be career as being social would mean better career would mean more money and better survival. This has nothing to do with me being more social or not, rather explaining how human's have changed since the original purpose of social behavior came about. It's probably in our evolution to enjoy being social yet not all of us are like that. I still have social anhedonia but I am more drawn towards being social as I have stated. Before the drug I would never initiate any conversations with anyone.

And note i'm only on Abilify 2 weeks and I already have this urge to talk to people at times. So I am guessing now that it has reached steady state I am truly going to start noticing changes within the next 4 weeks.


----------



## thundercats

I also don't talk to people. Does this mean something's wrong?


----------



## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I also don't talk to people. Does this mean something's wrong?


I already told you you have anhedonia but you don't believe me even though you have all the symptoms, this just adds another symptom.


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## thundercats

I dont think that I have anhedonia. I enjoy watching TV for example. I also enjoy eating and sleeping. I just dont like people very much. For example I hate eating in public. It makes me feel vulnerable. In order to eat I'd rather retreat to a safe place kinda like a predator.


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## riptide991

thundercats said:


> I dont think that I have anhedonia. I enjoy watching TV for example. I also enjoy eating and sleeping. I just dont like people very much. For example I hate eating in public. It makes me feel vulnerable. In order to eat I'd rather retreat to a safe place kinda like a predator.


Anhedonia isn't just an ON and OFF scenario. Like depression there are various levels. Different activities set off different regions of the brain. Some things like a warm blanket while watching tv not only set off specific dopamine regions but also opioid receptors. Watching tv is an easy reward where you don't have to work for it but is only set off because of the novelty. New things keep you interested and release dopamine but in a very specific region. While say reading a book on programming, creating a program and then enjoying the end result is a complex set of processes involving many neurotransmitters including norepinephrine.


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## thundercats

I much rather watch TV or listen to an audio book than to have to read something. Reading is painful to me just like thinking. It's simply so exhausting.


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## riptide991

But it's not supposed to be. That's why NASA scientists get excited about the math involved in launching a shuttle into space. These are processes that occur that all humans should have to move the race forward. It's how we got where we are today but some of us are missing these traits due to our brains being FUBAR'd.


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## thundercats

I dont know. I mean there are only very few things which really interest me and these are things which cannot be used for a living. I mean I like reading about nutrition and stuff like that but I can't use this it's only a hobby. Those people wo do something which they enjoy are really lucky. I also think it's easier to keep stuff in mind which really interests you.


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## GotAnxiety

Alright a couple more questions Kehcorpz here some big ones 

Is abilify good for ejaculation anhedonia?

So far Abilify in conjunction with the Wellbutrin have youve been experiencing any weight gain or is it weight netural? 

Thanks again.


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## riptide991

@gotanxiety, well I masturbated twice today with no issues lol.

As far as weight I think I lost a bit. I think that always happens to me with drugs that alter dopamine.


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## riptide991

Decided tomorrow i'm going to swap my wellbutrin for Zoloft to see if abilify/Zoloft will be similar to Remeron/Zoloft before remeron pooped out. The reason I want to do this is because I have about 2 weeks before I see my doctor so I want to make a decision by then which one to stay on.


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## riptide991

Day 1 Abilify/Zoloft: I took my Zoloft this morning and surprisingly I have started feeling pretty good the last 15 minutes. I realize people will say placebo, but SSRIs work instantly. It would only be placebo if I claimed it cured depression, but I never had depression since I've been on drugs that eliminated it. My only problem left is anhedonia which is also getting better, but who knows Zoloft may end up making it worse hehe. But yah since abilify is allowing more serotonin to be used at 5-ht1a, it should be an interesting combo.


UPDATE: Had a great workout. Mouth is dry as hell though. This will go away as I had a dry mouth last time I took Zoloft and eventually it subsided. Funny how Abilify is the only drug that didn't give me side effects but gave me the most results thus far.

UPDATE 2: Had a good day. The actual dry mouth has gone away. My guess is that blood levels of Zoloft have dropped. It will take a good 4-7 days to reach steady state with Zoloft.


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## riptide991

Reading a paper on abilify and it actually has been found to be a full agonist at D3 and D4 sites. In fact it seems to be very selective where it has these effects. It can be an agonist, partial agonist or antagonist depending on the cell type and which location. It is a super complex drug. It probably explains why it doesn't have all the side effects of the other atypical antipsychotics.



> The functional findings in the current work are of particular importance, since the actions of aripiprazole differ markedly across receptor systems. Thus, in the present studies, aripiprazole was sometimes an antagonist (eg at 5-HT6 and D2L), sometimes an inverse agonist (eg 5-HT2B), sometimes a partial agonist (eg D2L), and sometimes a *full agonist (D3, D4).*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v28/n8/full/1300203a.html#tbl1
Click to expand...


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## riptide991

Day 2 of Abilify and Zoloft. Feeling good no doubt but my sex drive has dropped dramatically from insanely crazy to nothing heh. It may be transient though till it balances out.


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## thundercats

Looks like abilify aint that abilifying after all. Maybe they should call it debilify.


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## riptide991

Lolol. I think all SSRIs do that at the beginning. It's because there's a huge serotonin increase at first, but eventually it balances out.


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## thundercats

Maybe you should throw in some horny goat weed to counter abilify. 
I wonder if they have any studies on horny goat weed over at pubmed.

Also make sure to ask your doc about ejaculoid. Maybe he even has some free trials.

http://www.goliathlabs.com/products/ejaculoid/


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## riptide991

Abilify actually increased my sex drive when I first started it, it's the Zoloft that's lowering it but it happened before too it's only like a few day thing. And horny goat weed doesn't do anything. I tried it in the past for my workouts but it didn't do anything for workout or sex drive. Although I always had super high sex drive.


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## Mr Bacon

Why do you always say abilify is useless on its own?

Abilify raises dopamine levels, so why would combining it with an SSRI be the only way to make it work? It don't get the logic. Unless you're talking about prozac or zoloft's weak dopamine reuptake inhibitor properties.


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## riptide991

Mr Bacon said:


> Why do you always say abilify is useless on its own?
> 
> Abilify raises dopamine levels, so why would combining it with an SSRI be the only way to make it work? It don't get the logic. Unless you're talking about prozac or zoloft's weak dopamine reuptake inhibitor properties.


Well on its own you need high doses so it's good for things like bipolar. But to get the advantages at low doses you combine with something like an SSRI. So what happens is that abilify blocks a lot of the 5-HT receptors so the SSRI can focus on those that are not being blocked. And since it's a partial agonist at 5-ht1a + you add Zoloft or something that will work on creating more serotonin at 5-ht1a receptors you get a combination therapeutic effect. 5-HT1a is what usually raises dopamine levels.


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## Mr Bacon

kehcorpz said:


> Well on its own you need high doses so it's good for things like bipolar. But to get the advantages at low doses you combine with something like an SSRI. So what happens is that abilify blocks a lot of the 5-HT receptors so the SSRI can focus on those that are not being blocked. And since it's a partial agonist at 5-ht1a + you add Zoloft or something that will work on creating more serotonin at 5-ht1a receptors you get a combination therapeutic effect. 5-HT1a is what usually raises dopamine levels.


But, you said it did work very well while you were on wellbutrin. Wellbutrin doesn't act on the 5-HT receptors, isn't it?


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## riptide991

Mr Bacon said:


> But, you said it did work very well while you were on wellbutrin. Wellbutrin doesn't act on the 5-HT receptors, isn't it?


Well like I said abilify is a partial agonist at 5-ht1a/d2/d3. So this increases dopamine, wellbutrin keeps it from being taken back into the uptake pump. It works well with either class of antidepressants but I think it will work better with SSRI this is why I switched 

And note on its own as a partial agonist it may increase but may not be enough to notice.


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## riptide991

> was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for schizophrenia on November 15, 2002 and the European Medicines Agency on 4 June 2004; for acute manic and mixed episodes associated with bipolar disorder on October 1, 2004; as *an adjunct for **major depressive disorder* on November 20, 2007; and to treat irritability in children with autism on 20 November 2009


Even the approval for depression mentions it must be combined.

I've been really ravenous since quitting the Wellbutrin. I think it was suppressing my appetite. I'm actually glad it's back as i'm doing strength training and combined with lots of eating results in lots of size gains. I think in a few days if this works out I'm going to have to start a new thread since Wellbutrin will be out of the picture. But still in experimental mode.


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## GotAnxiety

*Gonna bump this 

Lately i just retried taking 5mg lexapro but with 300mg wellbutrin this time. i feel pretty amazingly happy and excited at the same time. I just had the most amazing erection i guess that a good sign your happy maybe. Despite my blood pressure being like 160/100 i feel like im gonna crash hard today and get a crazy good sleep. I got Zoloft and Abilify to do more comparsion now yay. 

Hopefully this effect won't die down it probably will I've been so active and wellbutrin kinda has a calming effect the more active you are. It only day 2 on cipralex. I get burning pains when starting cipralex maybe it possibility increases lactic acid from increased cortisol triggering catabolism. I dunno how else to explain it.


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## riptide991

Yah I had a crazy erection if you read my abilify update. I think your case it was the pictures of Justin Bieber. Hehe kidding.


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## GotAnxiety

lol... One time i was at subway and i was around a bunch of guys and justin biever was on the radio I said. it sounds like a girl singing this song lol. Baby baby oh lol.


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## riptide991

lol nice not to mention looks like a girl.


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## GotAnxiety

Im looking forward to trying Abilify if it doesn't produce the fatigue\weakness like the lexapro that would be cool.


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## riptide991

You starting tomorrow?

Be prepared for some strength gains at gym.


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## GotAnxiety

Sweet! Im thinking of dropping Wellbutin down to 150mg that should shave 20/10 points off my bloodpressure it seems. For some reason 150mg keeps it at 130/85. /W an ssri it like 140/90 at 150mg.


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## GotAnxiety

Ya depending on how i feel i may give cipralex a one day drain out period befor starting. To eliminate interactions.


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## riptide991

You can start abilify/Zoloft the next day. I always do that with ssris' and abilify is meant to be taken with them anyways.


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## GotAnxiety

Start them together at the same time? I wanna try abilify with wellbutrin first. To see what that all about. How is zoloft on the startup side effects can't be any worster then cipralex probably?. And are you still maintaining your strength on the zoloft?


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## riptide991

I only get dry mouth and a bit of fatigue at first. Usually takes 4 days to reach steady by day 6 you are pretty much side effect free. Although I have heard some people take up to 14 days. I actually am at 100mg right now, today is day 4, already got dry mouth today after taking it. Always get it at steady state but will disappear within 2 days. Yah my strength continuously goes up. Keep in mind Zoloft also raises dopamine.



> *Sertraline increases extracellular levels not only of serotonin, but also of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens and striatum of rats.*
> 
> Kitaichi Y, Inoue T, Nakagawa S, Boku S, Kakuta A, Izumi T, Koyama T.
> *Source*
> 
> Department of Molecular Stressphysiology, Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry, Munich, Germany.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) are a first-line treatment for depression. Recent reports in the literature describe differences in antidepressant effects among SSRIs. Although each SSRI apparently has different pharmacological actions aside from serotonin reuptake inhibition, the relations between antidepressant effects and unique pharmacological properties in respective SSRIs remain unclear. This study was designed to compare abilities of three systemically administered SSRIs to increase the extracellular levels of serotonin, dopamine, and noradrenaline acutely in three brain regions of male Sprague-Dawley rats. We examined effects of sertraline, fluvoxamine, and paroxetine on extracellular serotonin, dopamine, and noradrenaline levels in the medial prefrontal cortex, nucleus accumbens and striatum of rats using in vivo microdialysis. Dialysate samples were collected in sample vials every 20 min for 460 min. Extracellular serotonin, dopamine, and noradrenaline levels were determined using high-performance liquid chromatography with electrochemical detection. All SSRI administrations increased extracellular serotonin levels in all regions. O*nly sertraline administration increased extracellular dopamine concentrations in the nucleus accumbens and striatum*. All SSRI administrations increased extracellular noradrenaline levels in the nucleus accumbens, although fluvoxamine was less effective. These results suggest that neurochemical differences account for the differences in clinical antidepressant effects among SSRIs.


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## metamorphosis

kehcorpz said:


> Day 2 of Abilify and Zoloft. Feeling good no doubt but my sex drive has dropped dramatically from insanely crazy to nothing heh. It may be transient though till it balances out.


Let's hope that is the case. The statistics are not on your side, however. Sexual dysfunction has been reported by up to 70% of patients using serotonergic antidepressants, which are associated with a higher frequency of sexual dysfunction than antidepressants that do not affect or minimally affect serotonergic neurotransmission. Statistics do show that if asked directly, an average of 60% of patients report sexual complaints. 
I can attest to this fact. The only SSRI that caused me minimal s.d. including- loss of libido, impotence, ejaculatory impotence, was escitalopram at a low dose in conjunction with wllbutrin xl.

Thats the price that is paid for pro-serotonergic agents, especially the 5HT re-uptake inhibitors Serotonin also appears to exert direct effects on sexual organs by decreasing sensation and by inhibiting nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is thought to be a key player in the sexual pathway as it is thought to relax smooth muscle and blood vessels and therefore allow adequate blood supply to the sexual organs.

Dopamine enhancers that stimulate dopamine release or act as dopamine antagonists can improve sexual dysfunction. ie, Wellbutrin

Abilify, as a partial DA2 agonist and also a partial agonist at 5-HT1A , and an antagonist at the 5-HT2A receptor, seems to have a more neutral to positive increase in a persons libido.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21731833
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/abilify/libido+decreased
http://www.ehealthme.com/q/abilify-side-effects-drug-interactions
http://www.ehow.com/about_5489641_sexual-side-effects-abilify.html
http://www.crazymeds.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Meds/Abilify

In the end, those that suffer from the various SSRI induced sexual side effects, are probably going to have to live with decreased libido and/or not flying full staff until discontinuation of the SSRI.


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## riptide991

@metamorphosis sorry I abandoned this for another thread. My sex drive is awesome again. In fact, erections last for a while after I climax. I assume it's because of abilify's ability to suppress prolactin and increase dopamine.


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## metamorphosis

kehcorpz said:


> @metamorphosis sorry I abandoned this for another thread. My sex drive is awesome again. In fact, erections last for a while after I climax. I assume it's because of abilify's ability to suppress prolactin and increase dopamine.


Yes, which definitely helps with the increased prolactin caused by the SSRI's.
In the future I will use your "new and improved" abilify/zoloft thread!


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## thundercats

lol I don't have to take debilify to stay hard after orgasming. People...


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## yourfavestoner

I don't really know much about Wellbutrin other than it's supposed to not come with the sexual dysfunction nearly as often as most other ADs.

I asked my psychiatrist a while back if he would ever consider putting me on it.

His response - "No."

Me - "Why not?

Him - "Because I want you to like me."

:lol

So, it wasn't hard to surmise he's not a fan.


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## GotAnxiety

^150mg of wellbutrin is one of the most side effect free drug's out there. But it not really gonna change your mood like an SSRI can. Wellbutrin works on different characteristic being an NRI for the most part. it's good for augmentation and it alot safer then using the current SNRI's on the market. 

It's actually one of my favorvites. if i was a kid and had a choice instead of being put on ritalin i woulda choosen Wellbutrin. I probably woulda been better off in the long run.


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## Lil Sebastian

Hmm, just got done reading through this topic. I've been on 20mg of Citalopram for the past approximately 2 months, and 10mg for a few months before that. I've had some improvement with my GAD but overall very little on my main symptoms, which are constant fatigue, brain fog and low libido/sexual dysfunction. Reading this topic it seems like asking for Wellbutrin XL is ideal for the symptoms I have. I honestly think if I could get the best of those issues everything else would improve a heck of a lot. Think I'm along the right lines here? Probably an impossible question to answer really online.


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