# Borderline Personality Disorder



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## angus (Dec 18, 2010)

Hi, what exactly is BPD I have heard different definitions, what symptoms do you have.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Homersxchild said:


> Some of the main problems is trouble with interpersonal relationships, fears of abandonment/rejection, self-harm, suicidality, explosive/uncontrollable emotions, and self-destructive behaviour such as eating disorders, drug abuse or sexual promiscuity. It's caused generally by people with abusive childhoods.
> 
> My main symptoms are the fears of abandonment, self-harm, suicidality, uncontrollable emotions, obsessions and attention-seeking behaviours.


:hug you poor thing, its horrible that u cannot control these emotional out bursts.

I struggle with an eating disorder, have done since 16 and obsessions seem to be the hardest for me to control. do u get obsessed in say one particular thing for a period of time and then stop and go onto something else? i am in that pattern, have been for a long time i thought it was just OCD

self harm, attention seeking and drug abuse could all be linked, as drugs lighten and lower your moods pretty much within an hour after taking them

do you ever have outbursts u know u can control but don't?
Just curious and what meds are used for BPD? mood stabilizers?

I can relate to those symptoms, they are there and i do not know if they will ever go away like the obsessions, addiction, eating disorder, outbursts, irrational thinking, crying one minute, happy the next and the fear of abandonment, hell that can keep me up at night if i dwell on it. Losing loved ones is a large fear i have but i always boiled it down to depression and benzodiazepine withdrawal. Do u have the fear that some of the pills u have been on in the past or recently have contributed to your BPD?:afr:afr


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## HeWhoCouldNot (Nov 18, 2010)

My sister has BPD. It can be a difficult disorder to have, but you can learn to cope. She's 27, in a long term relationship and doing well career wise; so it can be done.

Try to manage your emotions as best you can, but don't beat yourself up if you slip up along the way; its just part of life. 

Also, try to be as open about it as possible; having people who understand what you're going through and support you will help a lot.

Best of luck!


----------



## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Homersxchild said:


> I'm on Effexor an antidepressant and Abilify an antipsychotic. I just got prescribed Lamictal, a mood stabilizer, because my mood swings have been getting worse.
> 
> By obsessions, for me, its obsessions with people. Like crushes that go way beyond what is considered normal. I believe its called Limerence. It doesn't go away until I find another object of focus.
> 
> And no, I don't believe the pills contributed to the BPD. My worst splitting episodes have happened when I was medication free.


Yes i am on effexor too and have been on different antipsychotics but the weight gain side effects have put me off.

Is lamictal effective for you?
i often wonder if its bipolar or BPD with me because of the way i am
the highs and lows and irritable moods followed by periods of guilt and apologizing for being rude to family, or i will by something extravagant and realize the next day that i cannot afford it. Before the meds i was an anxious mess and was prone to the odd random outburst or doing something out of character but now i worry if its benzo addiction causing these ups and downs and voices and such or if it could be bipolar as i think it was underlying for years. The symptoms described by you and others with it seem to fit me well and having been misdiagnosed with ADHD i am skeptical of whether it is or its just intense mood swings and a mood disorder so i was wondering how the mood stabilizers work for u?


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

I've sometimes thought I had borderline traits. I knew someone with BPD once and could really relate to her - she was suicidal, had abysmally low self-esteem, abandonment issues, and went through huge mood swings. She self-medicated with heroin, though she was always trying to quit. 

Which is interesting, because early attachment is mediated by endorphins, which heroin mimics. Another way to get endorphins is through cutting. Or intense exercise. 

For a few weeks I got really attached to my therapist last year, and I felt it in my guts - it was this real visceral pleasure in my stomach just thinking about her. It wasn't love or lust, it was just physical pleasure - I think it was from endorphins. I think that's what a good infancy bond is probably like - it's a very physical thing. The book The Neuroscience of Human Relationships talks about this. And the effect of a good bond in infancy is that you learn to internalize that experience, and are then able to self-soothe on your own. 

And it's interesting because in a description of BPD someone mentioned feeling like they had a hole in their stomach. I often feel the same way. And it made me think of Kurt Cobain, who had stomach pains, which he medicated with heroin also. 

Anyway, that physical pleasure is kind of the basis of early attachment, which affects later attachment experiences. And a lot of BPD is about problems with attachment. 

The time that I got so attached to my therapist was when she was going away on vacation for three weeks. It was like, oh, it's safe to get attached to her now, because I won't actually have to be around her and risk getting engulfed by her. The three weeks she was away was when I felt closest to her - when she came back it slowly died away. I had thought I was being cured, because during that period I didn't have anxiety being around people - I was able to look them in the eye, and just felt good being around them, and wanted to share that positive emotion - but it wasn't a manic or euphoric emotion - it felt very grounded. 

And that book also talks about the vagus nerve, which wanders through the guts, and is also involved in bonding. So maybe that's what I was experiencing also, not just endorphins. 

Anyway, I was thinking of trying to get into jogging, for this reason - to get more endorphins and see if that helped dealing with people. I don't know that it would translate into better attachment experiences - maybe you need therapy for that, but I thought I would try.


----------



## Pam (Feb 14, 2009)

I have had borderline traits, but maybe not enough outward signs of it for a full blown diagnosis of it. i can relate to the inner feelings of it rather than the outer behavioral traits. This is a list of the things I have had, or still have to some degree that are from being Borderline: 

Suicidal ideation
Strong negative emotional reactions to rejection & abandonment
Inability to self-soothe
Very hard time to accept soothing from others (wasn't good enough because I needed more than a normal adult should need so people, including therapists, thought I expected too much from them)
Constant fear of abandonment
Uncontrollable regressions to early childhood interfering in present relationships
Problem with boundaries--mental & emotional mainly, not being able to say "No."
Very, very weak sense of Self (kind of like there is nothing inside--everything depended on, and unfortunately could be influenced by, others)
Vascillate between over-dependence or attachment to others, and a paranoid fear of trusting people because they will abandon me
Mild self-harm
Splitting, seeing people as "only as good as their last performance" meaning if we've been friends for years, yet today you say something to hurt me, I think this may be the end of the relationship even tho we have a good history together already. The history part flies out the window and i would only see the person as evil.


----------



## Whatevs (Jan 30, 2011)

BPD fits me to a t.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Homersxchild said:


> I haven't filled the prescription yet, but I was on it last year for quite a few months. I decided to go on it again because when I remember back it DID help quite a bit with severe mood swings, depressive episodes and suicidality. It didn't stop my strong emotions, but it certainly helped keep me at a baseline. It may have helped with anxiety as well, I'm not certain though. I'm hoping that it will help with my depressive episodes a little bit.
> 
> It's hard to distinguish between BPD and Bipolar, for sure. So much so, that my therapist says I have both. Although its just a mild form of Bipolar type II, while BPD is the main beast of the problem for me. Misdiagnoses has been a problem for me too. I was wrongly diagnosed with PTSD at my second hospital stay. I'm very well-versed in the DSM and I knew I didn't have it. But, he refused to believe the crazy girl.
> 
> And its nice to know that many people here can relate to BPD. Makes me feel like you people understand.


thanks for sharing that  its interesting to read other peoples experiences on lamictal and when u said that it did help the moods and depressive episodes because they tend to be what keeps me mainly upset and frustrated, if was just depression and nothing else, then i think a run of the mill antidepressant would work as my friend is doing brilliantly on celexa for depression but i understand the extreme emotions, its feels like u are feeling things that everyone else feels only ten times more so :afr
I have found that meds have suppressed my desire to explode anger wise, but i do have erratic mood swings and crying spells frequently but other times i cannot cry or i am too tried or scared to leave the house, but other times i am full of energy and ready to go but that never lasts it is a pain.

Misdiagnoses is too common, it really can stuff you up too, i mean putting you on meds that are for something you do not have is dangerous enough but you are left with this uncertainty too because only you know what u are really thinking and feeling and when a pdoc tries to tell you otherwise its difficult to disagree because they are "specialists" but being put on the wrong medication is worse than being on no meds at all IMO because the side effects are horrible and scary :afr


----------



## King Moonracer (Oct 12, 2010)

Personality disorders are so rediculously broad. Someone needs to make a bunch of sub categories for each if them...

Anyway, that sux u have BPD. I think my mom has it. I kniw i have avpd with a dab if dpd 

Ive been goin through these mental
changes of deep thought lately abouy life.

Dnt wry about it. Its not your fault, just do the best you can with ****ed up brain chemicals. Ive accepted myself recently
and i feel better.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## NaturalLogOfZero (Sep 29, 2010)

Reading your posts and checking out some other BPD stuff makes me think I could have it...


-I have uncontrollable anger outburst over completely ridiculous things (like someone driving a little slow on a snowy road)
- Most of the time I have a horrible self image. I've never been in a relationship because I feel like I'm not good enough for anyone. I'm always worried i'll end up like my dad and ruin some ones life. I convince myself that no one would ever be interested in me.

-I hate being left alone in unfamiliar places. I dont mind being left alone at home but I'm if out with friends, at a store, at sporting event etc. I try and stay as close to someone I know as possible. I "latch on" until its over or I become comfortable. When I was younger, my dad would frequently take to a store and he'd just have to run in for a second so I'd wait in the car. It would be such a stressful time. I'd constantly we thinking "where is he?" "Did something happen?" "why isnt he out yet?". Hell im 21 and if I'm at the mall with my mom I always so nervous that we'll lose each other. 

- I have an OCD-like issue with picking scabs and picking my nails. It's disgusting but I have whittled down the toenail on my big toe countless times. I always think to myself "you need to stop this before you get a serious infection" but I always find myself doing it without thinking. Especially if im watching TV or something like that.
It always ends up hurting but that doesnt really stop me. About half the time I have a limp because my toes hurt. 

- I have a very odd characteristic of attention seeking. If I'm alone I try and hide. I avoid public spotlight like the plague. I try and think of myself as "intelligent and intellectual" but with my friends I digress into a mumble moron. I say things without thinking, I try and be as weird as I can and just come off ridiculous. I'm always thinking "why the hell did you just say that?". I can be idiotically impulsive.

- not sure that I do the splitting thing. But I tend to key off very small things that lead to me assuming a lot. for example, if someone is tired and snaps at me I assume they are mad at me or they dont like me. one of my coworkers has a way of asking if he can show you something. I always assume he is pissed at me. 

- have obsessive phases with things that frequently shift. I'll watch 20 episodes of a television show in 4 days and constantly think about. I have very strong musical obsessions that change from day to day (i'll listen to a song 20 times a day and then almost never for the next year)

- constantly stressing over things that either dont exist or are trivial at best. Worrying endless that people can hear the music from my Mp3 player on the train. I leave early for everything because I can't be late. etc etc

I'm worried that I'm just making this stuff fit me too. That I'm just a hypocondriac...

I'm a little confused about what suicidal Ideation means. I don't have suicidal thoughts (I have never wanted to die) but sometimes I'll think things like, If I just ran this red light would I live? Waiting at a train station, I picture myself falling on the tracks right as a train goes by so I always make sure I'm really far away. 

Am I just projecting?


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## Ramondo (Feb 16, 2011)

NaturalLogOfZero said:


> Am I just projecting?


You need to consider Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. (OCPD, Not OCD). I agree that you don't sound Borderline.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

DBT sounds really interesting - like a kind of reparenting, learning to regulate intense emotions.

From Wikipedia - "DBT draws its principles from behavioral science (including cognitive-behavioral techniques), dialectical philosophy and Zen practice. The treatment emphasizes balancing acceptance and change (hence dialectic), with the overall goal of helping patients not just survive but build a life worth living. Treatment is delivered in four stages, with self-harm and other life-threatening issues taking priority. In the second stage, *patients are encouraged to experience the painful emotions that they have been avoiding. *Stage three addresses problems of living such as career and marital problems. Finally, stage four focuses on helping clients feel complete and reducing feelings of emptiness and boredom.

The goal of all DBT treatment approaches is to reduce the ineffective action tendencies linked to dysregulated emotions. DBT is based on a biosocial theory of personality functioning in which *the core problem is seen as the breakdown of the patient's cognitive, behavioral and emotional regulation systems when experiencing intense emotions*. *The etiology of BPD is seen as a biological predisposition toward emotional dysregulation combined with a perceived invalidating social environment.*"

I don't think I ever really grasped what DBT was about until reading that now. I had even helped that women I knew get into a DBT program with Marsha Linehan 15 years ago, and went to a couple of sessions with her for support. She wound up quitting after a few weeks though because she was sick of being "therapized".

And Pam, I can relate to everything on your list. Especially problems with boundaries, and over/under attachment.

And Homersxchild, I've repeatedly gone through these obsessive attachments, followed by suicidal depression at being abandoned. But the obsessive attachment was almost guaranteed to drive people away, so I was pretty much doomed. I thought my emotions were normal at the time, but looking back, I think they were too intense. I probably should have tried to build up a network of friends before trying to deal with a relationship, but I didn't want a network of friends - I just wanted ONE relationship. And I think I put too much pressure on them.

Anyway, maybe you could try to make some friends, in addition to the relationship - it might help dealing with the intense emotions. But with social anxiety, even friendships can cause intense stress. So, I don't know... this is why I'm single, and have no friends.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## Ramondo (Feb 16, 2011)

Homersxchild said:


> I could never really grasp the difference between OCPD and OCD. People have tried to explain it before but I can't seem to recognize the difference in people, which bugs me because I want to become a therapist working with abnormal behaviour. Could you give a clear example of the difference between the two? I doubt there would be much different in treatment between the two. The only difference is for diagnostic purposes. (?)


OK, well the main difference tis that OCPD is a Personality DIsorder (Axis II in DSM), which OCD is a 'neurotic' disorder -Axis 1. It's very unfortunate that the powers that be have labelled two different thigns so similarly.

Personality Disorders are conceived of as inherent - you're pretty much born with them; whereas neuroses can develop anytime.
You can look at the DSM criteria (which I think you said you know quite well).
OCPD is the typical "anal character" - controlling, perfectionistic, obsessed with rules and lists; has to be right all the time; has trouble seeing other people's views; generally a loner; can have obsessions and compulsions, but not to the bizarre extent that some OCD people have them. OCD people have disabling obsessions and compulsions that take up a lot of their time - like having to wash their hands every 5 minutes. OCPD people can develop OCD, but it's a different thing.

I have quite strong OCP traits myself in some regards. We obsessives tend to be rigid, self-controlled and repressed, as opposed to you BPD and Hysterical types who act out and externalise (if I'm allowed to generalise). It might be because you have such a different personality style that you can't see the differences between OCD and OCPD.

Here's a start. I'd be happy to answer any further questions you've got. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCPD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCD

NaturalLogOfZero could check out http://ocpd.freeforums.org/index.php


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCD


----------



## Breathing Sludge (Feb 21, 2011)

Almost positive I have this but haven't been fully diagnosed yet.

I started eating much much less recently (and just drinking water when hungry). At first I tried to convince myself it was to save money then I realized I needed to feel empty. I can't say exactly why (i don't fully know) I just needed to.

I've got serious abandonment issues. All my friends have left me. Gone onto bigger and better. All my life I've been left to myself aside from forced social situations like school and work. The sound of silence is truly horrible. I'm so absolutely shy and afraid I'll come off as creepy if I talk to anyone so naturally no one ever gets close to me.

Currently taking pills to give me energy and perk myself up before work so I can actually feel happy while I'm dealing with everyone. They gave me a heart attack last night and I didn't tell anyone. Just prayed that I wouldn't die. and I didn't. so that's pretty good <3.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## Pam (Feb 14, 2009)

Homersxchild said:


> No, I haven't tried DBT. I'm not sure if there is any therapists or groups around that do it. I'm currently sticking with my current therapist to try to work on coping mechanisms and to getting to the roots of my behaviour/emotions.
> 
> And, ah. Self-sabotage. One of my biggest enemies. *My therapist, hopefully, knows never to tell me I'm "doing good", because I instantly fear abandonment and self-sabotage with the intent of manipulating him into fearing for me.* Horrible. Completely. I know. But the fear of abandonment is way too great for me to stop myself sometimes.


I can relate to this kind of thing too. It's weird because there are a lot of examples like this when a non-borderline person would just take it as a simple compliment, but I might start thinking "Oh, no! I can't have him think I'm doing good! He might forget about me and not help me! I won't be a priority anymore, etc."

I'm not seeing a therapist now, partly because I'm on Medicaid, and also I am avoiding those very nasty negative transferences. But in the past with one of my counselors--I made sure I never smiled in 3 years (well maybe once or twice) in his office because i was afraid he would think I was ok and didn't need him. Kind of dumb/crazy of me when I think back on it now. Especially since i actually smile very easily in general. So it was like I was purposely not acting happy around him so he'd give me more attention. Didn't really work anyway! :roll Rather, I think I made him feeel like a failure.


----------



## Ramondo (Feb 16, 2011)

Homersxchild said:


> Thanks for the elaboration Ramondo. I think I sorta see a difference now. OCPD seems more to be in the personality traits of the person whereas OCD is focused on certain rituals outside of the personality. Would I be getting that right?


Yes, I'd say that's right enough.



> And you're right that BPD is quite almost the opposite. Instead of being in a rigid, systematic form of thinking, having BPD, my mind feels often scattered and out of control. You'd think I'd try to gain control by lists and rituals like an OCPD'er, but instead I gain solace in other hysterical acts like cutting and starving myself. Strange differences. I find how different people's minds are fascinating.


It's a pity we can't swap parts of personalities on ebay or something. I could give you some of my self-control for a bit of your spontaneity. (You can keep the cutting though!)


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## rdp234 (Jan 13, 2011)

Anyone who has any of these disorders has to take control of their lives and stop listening to all this negative stuff. Life isn't easy. We all have something. I don't see the need for all of these labels. It seems like everything is a disorder these days. We all have different feelings and emotions. Not everything is a disorder. That's life.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## rdp234 (Jan 13, 2011)

Homersxchild said:


> Yeah. Right. And other things like Social Anxiety Disorder don't exist. :roll
> 
> Why are you on a fcuking forum for mental illness if you don't want to read "negative stuff". And until you try to fcuking kill yourself because someone rejected you for coffee, don't tell me I'm not suffering from a disorder.


I'm not saying you don't. It's just advice. Sometimes I think we need to be a little stronger, but I get it. I understand. Just giving a different point of view. I've been through some stuff myself. I can relate.


----------



## ImmortalxApathy (Feb 19, 2011)

I was diagnosed with BPD, Along with my Anxiety and Bipolar. 

I think that I have a bit of OCD thrown in as well. LoL. I do weird things, Like constantly dusting off things, Or not taking the first product. I have to get the second or last one or something. Weird.

Ah yes, I'm a mess.


----------



## robtyl (Sep 2, 2010)

Arisa1536 said:


> do u get obsessed in say one particular thing for a period of time and then stop and go onto something else? i am in that pattern, have been for a long time i thought it was just OCD


Perhaps this is a silly question - and I suspect it likely is - but are you aware that you're obsessing at the time? It is a matter that you know you are, but you just can't help it?



Homersxchild said:


> By obsessions, for me, its obsessions with people. Like crushes that go way beyond what is considered normal. I believe its called Limerence.


You can limerise over me anyday, sweetheart 

My sister is a psychotic b!tch - she's got a temper like you wouldn't believe, and her anger-based episodes usually end with her crying in a sincere belief that she has been hard-done by. At other times (few and far between) she's incredibly considerate and affectionate.

To her friends, she's sweet as pie; to me, she's a maniacal beast. I've often entertained the thought that she suffers from BPD.

x


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

In the latest Science News there's an article on oxytocin (the 'love hormone') - they were experimenting on it with normal people vs people with BPD. In normal people, it makes them more trusting and cooperative, but the BPD people became more suspicious and less cooperative. 

So... when you fall in love with someone, and get more oxytocin, you wind up distrusting them more, and pushing them away. 

This has been my experience - I get obsessively attached to someone, then on the rare occasion that they actually come around, I end up feeling nauseous. It's a really visceral reaction. It's happened with all my close relationships, and sometimes prevented them from even starting, because I just felt ill around the person. Although it was probably least severe when I was doing CBT 20 years ago, and was on Prozac, and I didn't feel so dependent on the other person. 

And it said symptoms of the disorder include "severe insecurity about relationships, abandonment fears and constant, needy reassurance-seeking from partners." Which is certainly me - I seem to just oscillate between anxiety over being abandoned and feeling ill at getting too close. Which is why I've avoided relationships the last 7 years. 

So, I think the CBT and antidepressant helped with some of this stuff, but it wasn't enough, and it doesn't seem to have decreased on its own over the years. The therapy I was doing last year was a bit like DBT, but it was totally unstructured, and I felt like it was just going in circles. I think DBT would have been a lot more helpful. 

Anyway, I'm doing the CBT audio tape series for SA (which is a 5 month program), and maybe after that I'll try DBT. Because I imagine I'll still have these problems in close relationships. And that has always winded up really depressing me, and made life seem meaningless, and is probably why I've regressed so much - nothing seemed worth working for.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

I don't mean to divert from your post homersxchild, I hope it's ok I put this here...



LostPancake said:


> In the latest Science News there's an article on oxytocin (the 'love hormone') - they were experimenting on it with normal people vs people with BPD. In normal people, it makes them more trusting and cooperative, but the BPD people became more suspicious and less cooperative.
> 
> So... when you fall in love with someone, and get more oxytocin, you wind up distrusting them more, and pushing them away.
> 
> ...


Wow this is really interesting. I thought I was the only one that got overstimulated then sick when certain people I really liked came around. And then go crazy when they left. With the result that I actually don't want to be around people that I like too much.

And that visceral engulfment abandonment sickness also happens to me with acquaintances (weird!) I have to see every day, and certain friends. I know it's inappropriate and unnecessary-- I don't want it, I don't want anyone to detect it, and I hate it... so like you, I avoid interacting, stay away, and keep most people really far away because it makes me physically sick and out of my head if I don't. I don't feel like going through that all of the time.

Fortunately I have safe people, like my husband and a few family members/friends. Oddly, I often feel kind of disconnected with them, and I've been going nuts trying to figure out why the best people in my life are people I feel low stimulation around.


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

popeet said:


> I don't mean to divert from your post homersxchild, I hope it's ok I put this here...
> 
> Wow this is really interesting. I thought I was the only one that got overstimulated then sick when certain people I really liked came around. And then go crazy when they left. With the result that I actually don't want to be around people that I like too much.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't know what you even call this - attachment issues? It's not borderline - that would be like idealizing the person one minute and then demonizing them the next. But I guess it's in the same direction? Maybe it's different though - maybe it's anxiety based, whereas borderline seems to be based on extreme emotions. I guess if it's based on low self-esteem though CBT would be able to help. Have you tried CBT?

And yeah, I see people on here with SA who seem to be able to form good close relationships, and it makes me wonder what is wrong with me. I've had several opportunities, but just could not feel enough positive attachment. Maybe it's just different degrees of the same issue though?

I've been feeling nausea lately even being alone though. And then when I'm around people at school it gets worse, to the point I can't focus on what I'm doing. I was thinking of trying some antinausea meds - maybe Benadryl would help. Maybe it's being exagerrated by a delayed reaction to quitting paxil in January, I dunno.


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

Monroee said:


> I have to post my rant here.
> 
> Therapy today went horrible. I acted like a stereotypical Borderline being the manipulative *****.
> 
> ...


Oh, I missed this post...

Have you heard back from your therapist yet? I don't think he would hate you - he should at least understand the kind of intense emotions you're dealing with.

And you're not psychotic, and the antipsychotics don't mean you are. Could you reduce the dose though, if they're too strong?

What type of therapy are you doing with him? Does he have much experience dealing with borderline patients?


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

LostPancake said:


> And yeah, I see people on here with SA who seem to be able to form good close relationships, and it makes me wonder what is wrong with me. I've had several opportunities, but just could not feel enough positive attachment. Maybe it's just different degrees of the same issue though?


Yeah me too, and my main SA problem is not at all with strangers (except at concerts, oddly). I could care less about strangers. My problem is with people I've met once or twice before and beyond. And I've had a best friend for 20 years (mostly her making, I just go along with it-- don't get me wrong I really appreciate it...) and she's always said stuff like "I want to live next door and raise our kids together" and I'm completely confused at her connection to me, I totally don't feel that way. The problem is similar to an engulfment/abandonment pattern of reactivity... but I think it's an insecure attachment issue, and probably on the same spectrum somehow.

I have such a major problem knowing when I've connected, when I am friends with someone, and feeling positively connected. I'm always trying to run away from people because I can't feel connected. I'd come to associate connection with the crazy sickness feeling, which is really main feeling I get with people. The warm happiness and love connection, I can't consistently get in people I'm in daily relationships with, only with people I see periodically.

So with my husband, I assume I have it and just hug him. I know I love him, but the full on secure connection feeling isn't there. I notice now that it's hard for me to feel it with anyone, and that's why I've had such crazy relationships. I just let my husband love me, basically, and he sticks around. And I continue to feel crazy and empty.

I was just joking to someone about the self-help book "If This Is Love Why Do I Feel So Insecure?" but some of the book actually makes sense. I think the article you posted may lead to clues as to why some people are desensitized to positive connected feelings and only can feel anxiety and thus get obsessive.

I thought I had Asperger's because I had a hard time determining when I had a relationship with someone. But I was tested and I don't.


----------



## ImHiding (Dec 7, 2010)

I was just diagnosed with BPD, but the diagnosis doesn't fully resonate with me. Major issues: identity, rejection, abandonment, impulsive behavior, suicidal ideation, emptiness. I was also diagnosed with major depressive disorder, but all of them seem so broad that I feel like most people could convince themselves that they have a personality disorder. Perhaps I'm just in denial.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

Monroee said:


> I'm not psychotic, no. But the archaic definition of Borderline is "neurosis bordering on psychosis" which I believe in for a variety of reasons that I won't get into in the moment unless you want me to.


Do you believe in it because of the delusional or dissociative features? I feel like the ones in borderline are similar to severe/psychotic depression.



> Since I'm having an acute flare-up due to my mother finding out about my abuse, I'm guessing he thinks it isn't the best time to get off of it.


I'm sorry you're going through so much right now. I hope you feel better soon.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

Monroee said:


> Just your guys' opinion on something I remembered. I remember a psychiatrist I met at the hospital thought I wasn't Borderline because I was so well-spoken. Apparently he thought a Borderline would be more chaotic in speech and appearance. Until I mentioned that I attempted suicide over a rejection for coffee... in which he finally consented. Do you guys think that a Borderline can't be composed in speech? I'm composed in speech yet de-composed in behaviour/emotions.


LostPancake do you have some research papers on that topic on hand?

Homers from what I've read, many borderlines are very composed most of the time and thus highly successful career-wise-- until something, relating to relationships, etc. triggers a crisis or flare up. People don't even know they're borderline.

As for those I've met in my life, they're salespeople, doctors, professors and usually extremely charming, exciting and persuasive. But that's all just anecdotal stuff. There may be some neurobiological link there, but I personally haven't seen any evidence of it.

My guess is that the psychiatrist has a notion of what borderline patient is like based on idiosyncratic reasoning or prejudice. Or maybe by the time he sees borderline patients, they're a bit fragmented and far into delusions and dissociation.

That's really interesting about your delusions, thanks for sharing them. It sounds so familiar that although they can be totally horrible and feel so far from shore, it's good to be able to see them clearly. I can relate especially with paranoia about people being after me, creepy or scary. I had a friend who was convinced that her ex friend was a murderer as well. And I've been derealized since 1995.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

LostPancake said:


> In the latest Science News there's an article on oxytocin (the 'love hormone') - they were experimenting on it with normal people vs people with BPD. In normal people, it makes them more trusting and cooperative, but the BPD people became more suspicious and less cooperative.
> 
> So... when you fall in love with someone, and get more oxytocin, you wind up distrusting them more, and pushing them away.


If this is true then it would explain all the weird things borderlines do.


----------



## carrie1 (Dec 2, 2010)

I was wrongly diagnosised and put on oleptro which did make my bpd worse.funny thing is therapist is supposed to check your history as I've been diagnosised with bipolar in the past.The problem is the Med stated in the pamphlet do not prescribe if there is a history of bipolar.the Med increased my symptoms and I actually was hullucinating.Very scary to go through.my therapist never heard of dbt therapy and not many therapists can't tell the difference between bpd and bipolar its so similar.meds are the same regardless.I take abilify, lamictal and lorezapam.All I know is BPD really make life hard because my emotions are so incredibly intense im out of control.im angry, sad, sometimes so happy all in one day.I have no clue who I am or what I should do with my life because my thoughts change so frequently.then add the SA and it makes me feel weird. I go from a talkative funny person to a paranoid person who can't even speak right.


----------



## carrie1 (Dec 2, 2010)

God I was a little afraid to admit I had BPD.people seem to be afraid of it like its a spreadable disease.guess u can't blame people for not knowing much about it. : (


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

popeet said:


> The problem is similar to an engulfment/abandonment pattern of reactivity... but I think it's an insecure attachment issue, and probably on the same spectrum somehow.
> 
> I'm always trying to run away from people because I can't feel connected. I'd come to associate connection with the crazy sickness feeling, which is really main feeling I get with people. The warm happiness and love connection, I can't consistently get in people I'm in daily relationships with, only with people I see periodically.
> 
> ...


You sound a lot like me - I've been in relationships before where the person seemed to feel love for me, but I was like, what? I didn't get it - I just felt queasy, but tried to go along with it. Two of them seemed to want to get married, but I could not deal with that - I couldn't _feel_ anything for them.

But, if there's no danger of a relationship happening, I can get really attached to people - all of my deep attachments were where there was some barrier that kept me safe. But if the barrier got removed for some reason, I'd start to feel sick, and panic and leave, or they'd get offended or turned off at my reaction and leave first.

I don't know how much of this is from low self-esteem, and how much of it is from childhood experiences. I could see how low self-esteem would really mess up relationships, feeling unworthy of them, etc. But a lot of it is probably from early childhood experiences and relationships, and I don't know what to do about it. Or I do, but I'm too chicken**** to deal with it - the emotions are so intense. The person in group therapy that I relate to the most is an incest victim - I just seem to resonate with her experience on a physical level.

So, I do need to deal with this stuff at some point, but I made a mistake in doing psychodynamic therapy two years ago, because I wasn't ready for it - I have all these practical issues like school and getting a job to deal with that are more important. I didn't realize what a long process I was getting into when I started it though. It's a tangled mess, because feeling so disconnected from people and relationships is really depressing, which makes me not care about living, much less struggling to fit into a job market. So hopefully CBT and meds will enable me to at least get a job so I can then afford to do more relationship-oriented therapy.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

I believe that you will be, and quite a good one.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

It makes sense to me, because I've lived it.  Or I think I've lived what you're talking about, I don't want to make any assumptions here.

I _think_ I totally understand about not being able to lock in on a sense of self. I've been a bunch of other people, too. Anyone else, everyone else were my center. In the past, what I really liked and really was was a hologram, or a mirage rather, or even a sand painting that just seem to blow away in the wind, the moment other people entered my thoughts. I became a satellite pulled by everyone else's gravitational fields. Around 35 it begins to wind down. I feel like I'm finally sobering up and wondering wtf happened in my life.

Oh yeah.. I guess I wanted to add that don't despair if you lose yourself again and get off track. I've found that in spite of identity instability, I eventually come back around to the same set of things I like over and over again.

Does that happen to you? After being possessed by other spirits for a while? Do you come back to some of the same interests?


----------



## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

I just discovered my mom has BPD. It explained so much. 

For anyone curious, a few traits of BPD:
-Cutting or self-mutilation is another strong sign of BPD. 
-Women tend to be more prove to it than guys. But both can get it.
-Most people with BPD are resistant to even admitting and more resistant to treatment.


----------



## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

VanDamMan said:


> I just discovered my mom has BPD. It explained so much.


Now you should rewatch the first two seasons of The Sopranos which is all about the guy's relationship with his borderline mom. The show's creator had a borderline mom and wrote the show to get the stuff from that out of his system. The mafia part was added to make it sellable.


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

Monroee said:


> After three emails and a phone call full of panic and dread and sobbing nights, he finally responded. He said, "I'm not angry. Everything's fine. I'll see you Friday. We'll discuss things then." That response did NOT reassure me. It was too blunt and cold. I feel like things are now rocky with my therapist and that is the worse feeling ever. He is the one person I can be myself with and actually let my emotions out without feeling guilty or self-conscious. And thats exactly whats happened. Extreme guilt and self-loathing.


Aw man, that's rough, to be left dangling like that, especially when you have such abandonment issues. It's things like that that always drove me closest to suicide, in relationships. It sounds like he was angry and punishing you, but it seems like it would be dangerous to do that with borderline patients. I mean, obviously boundaries are important, and it's good to have consequences for behavior, but the consequences shouldn't involve triggering your issues, like the fear of abandonment. That's like bad parenting - threatening your kids that you'll abandon them to get them to do what you want. Sure, it might work, but you'll end up with terrified and neurotic kids, or overly rebellious ones.

Sorry if I'm overreacting - it seems to trigger some of my issues.



> The therapy we are doing is Supportive Psychotherapy, Psychodynamic Psychotherapy and CBT. A combination of all three. He specializes in self-harm and eating disorders which I do have a problem with. He has helped me with my self-harm in the past and he's successfully trying to discourage me from furthering my borderline Anorexic tendencies. He's said that he's had Borderline clients before so I'm assuming he's familiar with our stereotypical behaviour. I also gave him a very helpful book on it which I really related to, which I thought I'd share with him. So I think he's equipped to deal with me. Plus, I don't get along and trust many therapists except this guy. He's a diamond in the ruff and I'm horrified of losing him.


This sort of reminds me of my experience, so I'll just say that I wish I had sought out a therapist who specialized in social anxiety, instead of doing psychodynamic therapy. It ended up being a waste of time, because I couldn't deal with all those emotional issues on top of the social anxiety. I needed to focus on just being able to function in life before getting into all of that. I actually do want to do it someday, but after I'm stable, and able to hold down a job, which is why I switched to CBT.

And IIRC they tried CBT with borderline patients without much success - DBT was really a breakthrough in that regard. So maybe you could look around for a DBT therapist while still seeing him, and if you find a good one that you like, slowly switch over?

I realize your situation might be different though - that's just what I would do if I were in your situation. I also stuck with my therapist because I liked her, and got along with her, and didn't want to go through the whole process of finding another one and establishing a new relationship - I've had several aborted relationships with other therapists and I know how hard it can be to find one you get along with.


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

VanDamMan said:


> I just discovered my mom has BPD. It explained so much.
> 
> For anyone curious, a few traits of BPD:
> -Cutting or self-mutilation is another strong sign of BPD.
> ...


Someone in my group therapy just loaned me a book that is apparently really good - Surviving a Borderline Parent by Kimberlee Roth - she said she's read it 6 or 7 times. I don't think my mom is full on borderline, but is pretty close - she definitely has the extreme emotions and abandonment issues.



LALoner said:


> Now you should rewatch the first two seasons of The Sopranos which is all about the guy's relationship with his borderline mom. The show's creator had a borderline mom and wrote the show to get the stuff from that out of his system. The mafia part was added to make it sellable.


Whoa, I didn't know that - I actually avoided it because it was about the mafia (just not interesting to me), but I'd watch it for that reason.


----------



## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

LostPancake said:


> Whoa, I didn't know that - I actually avoided it because it was about the mafia (just not interesting to me), but I'd watch it for that reason.


David Chase knew no one would see a show about a tv writer for Northern Exposure who finds out his mommy is a borderline. So he put in the mafia angle to sell it. They knew the actress they picked for the mother was terminal but he didn't think the show would last more than a year so he didn't care. When the actress died after year two they went fully into the mafia angle.

The Sopranos is actually where I found out about BPD. At one point the shrink reads the DSM summary description of it out loud and I shouted at the tv "thats my mother!"


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but VanDam, LostPancake and LALoner I don't know if it's appropriate to say, but I'm sorry you have Borderline moms. I'm guessing that Homers would agree since she's so incredibly self-aware. Homers you seem to have such a beautiful, honest, courageous heart. And a mind like a steel trap.

VanDam, I'm curious, what has it changed for you, to find out?

LostPancake and LALoner, I feel like I can understand so much better where your comments/stories are coming from knowing that you've had borderline moms. Do you talk about your moms in other threads?


----------



## Jmgntl (Mar 9, 2011)

I know for a fact that I do. I have never been diagnosed but I can feel it. I will be happy one moment and feel like I'm someone else the next. Never been treated for any of my conditions that I have, and I will always have them. I do feel skitzo sometimes, and the weird thing is, sometimes I'm ok with it. I guess iv accepted it's who iam. I was given up for adoption when I was 3 along with my brother and sister. All were separated in and out of foster homes, sister and I were adopted into a family with physical and sexual abuse. Later they gave us away cause we were liars. I was in counseling for little while while I was a kid, but nothing fixed me. I gotta admit sometimes I do
feel crazy like I'm someone else. But ahh well. Life shall go on. Iv managed fine all these years.


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

LostPancake said:


> ....Which is interesting, because early attachment is mediated by endorphins, which heroin mimics. Another way to get endorphins is through cutting. Or intense exercise.
> 
> For a few weeks I got really attached to my therapist last year, and I felt it in my guts - it was this real visceral pleasure in my stomach just thinking about her. It wasn't love or lust, it was just physical pleasure - I think it was from endorphins. I think that's what a good infancy bond is probably like - it's a very physical thing. The book The Neuroscience of Human Relationships talks about this. And the effect of a good bond in infancy is that you learn to internalize that experience, and are then able to self-soothe on your own.
> 
> ...


LP I just now saw this and I can't say I've seen the visceral dimension of insecure attachment more clearly put-together. This is it. BPD is so physical it's not even funny. If it's not the giant hole in the stomach, it's the knives and burning in the chest, if it's not that, it feels like fire and ice running through my veins, if not that, then my skin is like a burn victim's. And I know that I had intense and unstable relationships to make the pain stop. For others it's spending money (the anticipation of shopping releases the reward chemicals.)

I also think that males are way too underrepresented because I have two brothers with borderline traits (I have a large set of siblings) and were heroin addicts.

I personally think that BPD, while the classification itself can be very helpful for looking at features, I too feel that is a_ very nerve-based_ type of attachment disorder combined with PTSD and the alienation inherent individualistic sociocultural sanctions.

I fantasize alllll the time about taking up heroin as my drug of choice, because opiates just stop it all. I look at opium poppy catalogs. I ask my husband to help me get some, or at least pills. I can't do it though, because my two brothers did and it destroyed them and our lives, too. I have too few relationships to sacrifice them, and I would never survive with my honor intact. I also don't want anhedonia. In spite of all that, I'm still considering becoming a functional heroin addict (since I'm not having a kid, I put off having a kid because my attachment issues, now I find that I can't have kid) I remember getting sick from needing to take codeine to go to work every day, but it was the only thing that worked. Running doesn't do it. Self-mortification doesn't do it. Food doesn't do it.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm ADD or just too in pain from BPD to pay attention to anything.


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

popeet said:


> I don't mean to hijack the thread, but VanDam, LostPancake and LALoner I don't know if it's appropriate to say, but I'm sorry you have Borderline moms. I'm guessing that Homers would agree since. You're so incredibly self-aware Homers, and seem to have such a beautiful, honest, courageous heart.
> 
> VanDam, I'm curious, what has it changed for you, to find out?
> 
> LostPancake and LALoner, I feel like I can understand so much better where your comments/stories are coming from knowing that you've had borderline moms. Do you talk about your moms in other threads?


I agree about Homers, and think she'll make a great therapist someday. 

And thanks, Popeet, I actually deleted some of what I said earlier because I thought it was too much. I did write about it a bit on my blog last year but then started feeling weird about it, and started censoring myself. And I have this huge blog post in my head I want to write out but I'm wary about putting it on here - I'm afraid it will seem like I'm complaining, when I'm not - I just get so caught up in the analytical aspects of it all, which I find so interesting. It makes my life make more sense.

Maybe there's a forum somewhere for children of borderline parents though...


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

I can totally understand writing everything out then feeling weird about it. 

I feel like I got a lifetime's worth of therapy out of the "Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" board. I'm pretty sure there's a need for a niche board called "Sons of Borderline Mothers." Or an outlaw motorcycle club.


----------



## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Jmgntl said:


> I know for a fact that I do. I have never been diagnosed but I can feel it. I will be happy one moment and feel like I'm someone else the next. Never been treated for any of my conditions that I have, and I will always have them. I do feel skitzo sometimes, and the weird thing is, sometimes I'm ok with it. I guess iv accepted it's who iam. I was given up for adoption when I was 3 along with my brother and sister. All were separated in and out of foster homes, sister and I were adopted into a family with physical and sexual abuse. Later they gave us away cause we were liars. I was in counseling for little while while I was a kid, but nothing fixed me. I gotta admit sometimes I do
> feel crazy like I'm someone else. But ahh well. Life shall go on. Iv managed fine all these years.


The fact you admit to it makes it likely that you don't have it. You probably have some other condition.



popeet said:


> VanDam, I'm curious, what has it changed for you, to find out?


I got sad at first. My memories of my life are completely different given this new angle. What I thought was my childhood, is totally different. It was also quite liberating. I stopped beating myself up and being so hard on myself. I now consider myself successful that I'm even alive. Many children of BPD parent commit suicide.

Also the rage and anger I had for my mom is gone. I realize she was mentally ill, still is.

Also explains why my SA is a bit different than everyone else.


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

I can totally understand the liberation and the sadness. My mom has serious Cluster-B issues, and thus would never ever go to a therapist. I just really saw it clearly in the past year or so.

I feel like in being angry, it's like we're holding out for them to stop being terrible and get a conscience. Or at least you blame someone. With a diagnosis, it's more like a tragic feeling of having been fighting with someone who isn't really there. Like the person we thought we knew never existed. Like everything was a dream.

I commend you for just being alive. And I'm so sorry for kids of BDP parents. The parents themselves had no idea what was going on, so how could the kids?


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

Also, regarding DBT, I started DBT back in 2006 but dropped out. I was in waaaay too much pain and turmoil, and the therapist seemed more afraid and rigid than encouraging. We were treated like a pack of rabid animals, though no one at all acted out. One lady who was nodding out from heroin got really scolded. Poor lady. What was nice was that one day I was walking to work and a guy from my DBT group broke away from a discussion with his coworkers to run and give me a big hug for no reason. A happy memory I still remember. The other patients were so great.

On the other hand, I've been doing zazen off and on for years. The entire nondualist philosophy and sitting zazen has done so much for me. But it's the hardest thing ever.

This thread makes me want to learn so much more about myself, and attachment problems, especially the visceral stuff. I can hardly finish this post because of how I feel. I've kept thinking it was GAD all this time. But now everything... everything... since I was little, makes sense. I have all my old diaries that talk about these feelings. The other day I was thinking to burn all of them, because I thought they had no value. It's like I thought I had no value, that my life was a worthless jumble of stupid miserable embarrassing nothing. But now, after this thread, it all makes sense. I'm not ashamed of my traits anymore, and I don't care if someone treats me badly because of them-- they can't, because I know what I am now. "Know what you are and no one can hurt you" I tell myself. Suddenly, I feel like my entire attitude has changed, toward my little girl self, my diaries, my fixations, my aborted life, and my suffering. I wanted to stuff away shameful, empty life and feelings as if they were never happened. I couldn't stand the thought of the photos I have of my life. But now it all makes sense. If only I instantly felt better. Now I want to grieve.

They say BPD starts in a person's twenties, but I've had this since I can remember. So I think BPD diagnosis is a way to assess and manage people (mostly) with attachment disorders and PTSD when they start 'acting out' beyond teenage years.


----------



## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

popeet said:


> I feel like in being angry, it's like we're holding out for them to stop being terrible and get a conscience. Or at least you blame someone. With a diagnosis, it's more like a tragic feeling of having been fighting with someone who isn't really there. Like the person we thought we knew never existed. Like everything was a dream.


Exquisitely accurate.


----------



## Jmgntl (Mar 9, 2011)

VanDamMan said:


> The fact you admit to it makes it likely that you don't have it. You probably have some other condition.
> 
> In the earlier post below, they describe what some of the causes/symptoms are. If that's the case then I do have it. I feel almost all of those things.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jmgntl (Mar 9, 2011)

popeet said:


> I also think that males are way too underrepresented because I have two brothers with borderline traits (I have a large set of siblings) and were heroin addicts.
> 
> I fantasize alllll the time about taking up heroin as my drug of choice, because opiates just stop it all. I look at opium poppy catalogs. I ask my husband to help me get some, or at least pills. I can't do it though, because my two brothers did and it destroyed them and our lives, too. I have too few relationships to sacrifice them, and I would never survive with my honor intact. I also don't want anhedonia. In spite of all that, I'm still considering becoming a functional heroin addict (since I'm not having a kid, I put off having a kid because my attachment issues, now I find that I can't have kid) I remember getting sick from needing to take codeine to go to work every day, but it was
> the only thing that worked. Running doesn't do it. Self-mortification doesn't do
> ...


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Monroee said:


> I'd just like to say that its perfectly okay with me if VanDam and LA go into their problems with their moms further if they want. It wouldn't bother me though I have it. I can't speak for Popeet or LP, though they seem supportive of you guys.


Thanks. I use another forum for discussion of BPD. Although, if there is anything you want to know, feel free to ask.


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

Jmgntl said:


> popeet said:
> 
> 
> > I also think that males are way too underrepresented because I have two brothers with borderline traits (I have a large set of siblings) and were heroin addicts.
> ...


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

popeet said:


> LP I just now saw this and I can't say I've seen the visceral dimension of insecure attachment more clearly put-together. This is it. BPD is so physical it's not even funny. If it's not the giant hole in the stomach, it's the knives and burning in the chest, if it's not that, it feels like fire and ice running through my veins, if not that, then my skin is like a burn victim's. And I know that I had intense and unstable relationships to make the pain stop. For others it's spending money (the anticipation of shopping releases the reward chemicals.)
> 
> I also think that males are way too underrepresented because I have two brothers with borderline traits (I have a large set of siblings) and were heroin addicts.
> 
> ...


Aw, I'm sorry Popeet. :squeeze

I don't have it anywhere near that bad - it's just an emptiness, growing to nausea when I get too close to people. For a long time the social anxiety kept me from getting too close to people. But when I got past that it was like there was this _other_ barrier. ****! It made everything seem pointless - what was the point of even fighting social anxiety - I just withdrew from people after that.

I think that other barrier was the initial one though, and the social anxiety kind of grew up over it. It was sort of the seed, this felt sense of wrongness, that supported all the negative thoughts that hit me in adolescence.

And I hope you don't turn to heroin either - I don't really know enough about it, like can people do it at a low enough dose that they don't develop tolerance to it? It's a shame that people abuse it, but is the abuse just because you always end up needing more, or because people use too high a dose? I mean, they still use morphine for pain in some cases, don't they?

If it hadn't been abused so much, would it or morphine be a possible medication for such issues, or would it just not work because of tolerance?

It's basically like supplying the endorphins that you get (or are supposed to get) in early attachment. I think that's why I'm _constantly_ craving someone to cuddle with - that goes back to high school. It's a stronger craving than lust. And that's saying a lot, because I do have a strong libido also.

But in infancy, you get a couple of years of that constant reinforcement - the occasional snuggle I've experienced never seemed to put much of a dent in this feeling, and there was all the cognitive stuff interfering also. For one thing, this person is NOT some godlike protector like a parent, and you're not supposed to regress to infancy around them anyway, or they will be repelled.

So, I don't know - there's IFS therapy, which I keep meaning to try, but keep putting off - you deal with different parts of yourself in it, like child parts that might be stuck at different stages. Maybe that would help?

But what does DBT say about this kind of thing? Are you supposed to just whip yourself into shape until you get over it? Or do they have ways of developing self-soothing that somehow fixes it?


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

Thanks LP, I'm sorry if I seemed a little dramatic, I'm kind of ashamed now. But I feel like I had a small breakthrough in saying all of this. I really don't tell anyone about how I feel physically and that I want to do opiates. I maybe mentioned it once in one of my blogs.

Yes, I have thought about low dose and drug holidays and supplements and keeping healthy. I have thought about this also because of my chronic derealization, which is treated by an opiate antagonist (naloxone), but can also be positively affected by suboxone, an combination of buprenorphine, an agonist (for the physical pain of BPD) and antagonist (for the derealization and to prevent total dependence). Though I hear people get addicted to suboxone as well. So, really, I wouldn't choose heroin first, I would choose suboxone.

I understand about cuddling. For me, it's kissing and skin contact. I remember feeling an unquenchable thirst for kissing (and being away from other people). Its strange now, being married, we don't kiss as much and I feel kind of lost and alone. But we hug alot, and feel like I need to get as much surface contact as possible. I went to art/trade school for sculpture and I feel like I need to feel things with my hands, I need to touch his face and his back and everything. While kissing, too I need to touch. It's probably waaay too much.

We also went to marital counseling and I discovered that I was looking for a protector. Also along the way I realized I was looking for God and a superparent in everyone. My husband is very non-opinionated and big on not having extreme emotions. He doesn't like confrontation, either. So I couldn't deify, parentify or protector-fy him. Which is probably good for my development in the long run and good for him. But in the short run I feel super crazy sometimes and look for others to fill that space.

Ugh DBT. Yes you're supposed to whip yourself into shape until you 'get over it' but IMO it's the same kind of gruelling long term practice that meditation requires. It's about self-awareness, emotional modulation, floating through 'crises', realizing that no extreme is the answer, and training the mind to not let emotions hook you.

Yes DBT manuals do list methods of self-soothing, and encourage you to find your own. But I find that they are only to avert crisis and acting out. Not really quell the inner torment. I've been self-soothing my entire life. That's why I don't act out. But one can only play so many video games, dance so much, etc. Because of my self-soothing, I've been criticized for being lazy, a joke, head in the clouds, etc. And that hurt. I've lost alot of time soothing myself. Life is demanding, and I have to be present and do things I don't really want to do. The zen aspect of DBT is very helpful for inner experience, but some people have such pain in BPD that it can take years to come around to a potent mindfulness. I was following meditation practice and nondualist philosophy 10 years before I encountered DBT, and still had an intense struggle. Hypothetically, DBT is great for taking responsibility and dealing with intense feelings and visceral, physical sensations including rages. But I don't see it taking any less time to become truly effective than zen training, which takes years. But that's just my experience. In my group other people experienced relief more quickly. I believe though, that they also didn't want to be abandoned by the therapist so they reported improvement. 

This IFS software I'm looking at looks really interesting. Thank you for mentioning IFS, I've never heard of it. I'm off to explore that now.


----------



## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

popeet said:


> We also went to marital counseling and I discovered that I was looking for a protector. *Also along the way I realized I was looking for God and a superparent in everyone.* My husband is very non-opinionated and big on not having extreme emotions. He doesn't like confrontation, either. So I couldn't deify, parentify or protector-fy him. Which is probably good for my development in the long run and good for him. *But in the short run I feel super crazy sometimes and look for others to fill that space.*


Is this why you like Tupac?


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

LALoner said:


> Is this why you like Tupac?


Lol ok you won.


----------



## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

DBT is best for treating symptoms. Less for treating the cause. Much of it is founded in Buddhist meditation philosophies.


----------



## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

popeet said:


> Lol ok you won.


Now I feel bad about saying it.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

Um, sorry this reply is so long - I think I got a bit caught up in it all.



popeet said:


> Thanks LP, I'm sorry if I seemed a little dramatic, I'm kind of ashamed now. But I feel like I had a small breakthrough in saying all of this. I really don't tell anyone about how I feel physically and that I want to do opiates. I maybe mentioned it once in one of my blogs.


Please don't feel bad - I really appreciate hearing about it. 



> Yes, I have thought about low dose and drug holidays and supplements and keeping healthy. I have thought about this also because of my chronic derealization, which is treated by an opiate antagonist (naloxone), but can also be positively affected by suboxone, an combination of buprenorphine, an agonist (for the physical pain of BPD) and antagonist (for the derealization and to prevent total dependence). Though I hear people get addicted to suboxone as well. So, really, I wouldn't choose heroin first, I would choose suboxone.


I hadn't read about suboxone before - it sounds interesting. Especially in reading about how opiates had been used for depression in the 50's.

And they're always going on about how various mental problems are not your fault (eg bipolar, depression), you just have an 'imbalance' in neurotransmitters. Well, endorphins are neurotransmitters, but they never talk about balancing those out with meds. Hmph. I suppose the recreational and criminal users just ruined it for everyone.

But it seems like you could possibly get a prescription for it?



> I understand about cuddling. For me, it's kissing and skin contact. I remember feeling an unquenchable thirst for kissing (and being away from other people). Its strange now, being married, we don't kiss as much and I feel kind of lost and alone. But we hug alot, and feel like I need to get as much surface contact as possible. I went to art/trade school for sculpture and I feel like I need to feel things with my hands, I need to touch his face and his back and everything. While kissing, too I need to touch. It's probably waaay too much.


Ahhhgggh. Yeah, kissing is next on the list. I'm sure Freud would say something about me being stuck at an oral level.

Doing sculpture sounds fun. I crave having a garden to work in, for similar reasons - wanting to work with my hands.



> We also went to marital counseling and I discovered that I was looking for a protector. Also along the way I realized I was looking for God and a superparent in everyone. My husband is very non-opinionated and big on not having extreme emotions. He doesn't like confrontation, either. So I couldn't deify, parentify or protector-fy him. Which is probably good for my development in the long run and good for him. But in the short run I feel super crazy sometimes and look for others to fill that space.


Yeah, I wind up putting people on pedestals and idealizing them for the same reason. And they don't like it, and I don't blame them.

But interestingly, I went through a religious phase some years back and this emptiness pretty much went away - it was that idea of a benevolent all-powerful force looking after you. I sort of had to choose to go crazy to accept the idea though, and after half a year I couldn't believe it anymore. But it was great while it lasted - I felt like I was actually alive.

And I think this is what my mom did with me - idealized me and treated me as a parental figure, and hugged me to death. And if I had a kid, I probably would have done the same to them - I realized that I was in no shape to be a parent though.



> Ugh DBT. Yes you're supposed to whip yourself into shape until you 'get over it' but IMO it's the same kind of gruelling long term practice that meditation requires. It's about self-awareness, emotional modulation, floating through 'crises', realizing that no extreme is the answer, and training the mind to not let emotions hook you.


That does sound gruelling, and it's frustrating that it would take so much work just to get to a normal level. There must be a better way!



> Yes DBT manuals do list methods of self-soothing, and encourage you to find your own. But I find that they are only to avert crisis and acting out. Not really quell the inner torment. I've been self-soothing my entire life. That's why I don't act out. But one can only play so many video games, dance so much, etc. Because of my self-soothing, I've been criticized for being lazy, a joke, head in the clouds, etc. And that hurt. I've lost alot of time soothing myself. Life is demanding, and I have to be present and do things I don't really want to do.


Interesting - yeah, I've done the same, by drastically cutting back on things that cause stress (uh, like work) - I probably only function at 30% of normal capacity, because I get so stressed out, and then the stress impacts the work, which causes more stress.



> The zen aspect of DBT is very helpful for inner experience, but some people have such pain in BPD that it can take years to come around to a potent mindfulness. I was following meditation practice and nondualist philosophy 10 years before I encountered DBT, and still had an intense struggle. Hypothetically, DBT is great for taking responsibility and dealing with intense feelings and visceral, physical sensations including rages. But I don't see it taking any less time to become truly effective than zen training, which takes years. But that's just my experience. In my group other people experienced relief more quickly. I believe though, that they also didn't want to be abandoned by the therapist so they reported improvement.


I've always been ambivalent about Buddhism, because it seems to be about developing non-attachment to the world, while I still crave good attachment. And the Buddha had a good life with a family before he went looking for enlightenment. So I always thought it wouldn't help with my issues. But maybe it would - maybe I'm supposed to give up this desire for attachment? But then it seems like you're just becoming less human, by giving up on it, so I dunno.

But one thing my therapist used with me was mindful awareness of emotions - just being aware of them without getting caught up in them. It's something I only really did in her office, but recently was realizing, um, you know, I could do this on my own also. And I wouldn't have to deal with censoring myself around her, like when transferrence issues came up - I don't think she liked dealing with the negative transferrences.



> This IFS software I'm looking at looks really interesting. Thank you for mentioning IFS, I've never heard of it. I'm off to explore that now.


I just googled to see if there was any success using IFS with borderline, and guess what the first link is? This thread! :no

Since it's been around since 1995, I would think they would have tried it by now. So maybe it wouldn't help. But the idea seems like it would - you develop relationships with your parts, and in that way they would get the good attachment experience that they seem to need.

But I guess the other part of borderline is the extreme emotions, which is possibly a separate issue. I mean, I have the attachment issues, but not the extreme emotions - I seem able to damp them down. So maybe it could help with the attachment issues at least?

I've certainly never been able to make much headway with them through relationships with other people, even therapists - there's just too much anxiety.


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

LostPancake said:


> Um, sorry this reply is so long - I think I got a bit caught up in it all.


I know how it is to feel caught up in something and worry about it being too much. But I was so happy to see this lengthy thoughtful reply. 

And a wrote a long, good reply back. And them my browser quit mysteriously and I lost it all. And I'm trying to find meaning in it because I'm supremely annoyed with my browser right now.

Taking a deep breath....


----------



## Breathing Sludge (Feb 21, 2011)

I am positive I have this now. Probably for years but I shut it far away when I had friends. Now...my life is Hell. I just want to be normal or cease to exist.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## Pam (Feb 14, 2009)

Self-soothing is the most important thing that has helped me to not act, or feel, borderline most of the last couple years.

Since I am able to self-soothe:

I haven't felt suicidal at all.

People don't have the ability hurt me in those visceral ways a lot of you have described. No swords being shoved thru my torso, etc. Now, the hurt is proportionate to the event. (I had actually forgotten how bad it used to feel until I read it on here earlier!)

My sense of self has gotten much, much stronger; I have some boundaries now, unlike before. I had none and because of that, I was at the mercy of whoever i was around, not to mention all the negative crap that was in my head.

I am more self-reliant emotionally (emotional regulation). Not so annoyingly dependent like i used to be, which would drive people away, which would hurt me more, which would make me act more crazy, which would...

If I do get upset about something, my recovery time is *nothing* compared to what it used to be.

I feel like a whole person, solid. Not like a cloud that's not really existing. My life might be kind of empty, but *I* am not empty. I feel like I know who I am now.

Aslo, there is a huge difference between *self-soothing*, and *distracting oneself from feelings*. (like popeet mentioned--can't play enough video games or dance enough) Distracting is avoiding, and that never leads to healing anything.

Also "whipping oneself into shape" sounds like another one of those "just *force* yourself to be different" than how you actually are. (Doesn't sound like fun to me. Or helpful for that matter.)

*If you don't start where you are, you won't get anywhere.* :yes

I definitely work with the different parts as mentioned in IFS. Just not exactly how they describe how to do it. I made my own way. And why it wouldn't work with Borderline when it works with Multiple, IDK.


----------



## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

^^^ You got my interest, now how do you self sooth?


----------



## ImWeird (Apr 26, 2010)

I've been told that I have this. Not by a doctor, but by someone very close to me. The symptoms describe me perfectly. Fear of abandonment, self-harm, suicidality, feelings of emptiness and boredom, and substance abuse are things that I deal with. 

How were you diagnosed? I've never been to therapy, but I'm planning on doing it in the future when I have time. Are medications often given for this? How do you deal with it? I have so many questions. I'm not even sure where to start to tackle my problems.


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

Pam said:


> People don't have the ability hurt me in those visceral ways a lot of you have described. No swords being shoved thru my torso, etc. Now, the hurt is proportionate to the event. (I had actually forgotten how bad it used to feel until I read it on here earlier!)
> 
> My sense of self has gotten much, much stronger; I have some boundaries now, unlike before. I had none and because of that, I was at the mercy of whoever i was around, not to mention all the negative crap that was in my head.
> 
> ...


That is awesome to hear - I definitely need to try the approach you were talking about. It sounds so much simpler than IFS - I keep trying IFS but get so bogged down in all the details - it just seems too intellectual and exhausting. If I were a therapist it might be the way I would want to interact with a client, but for self-therapy it does seem to be a bit overkill. Maybe it's not, but I just find it difficult to do.

Anyway, I'm really glad that your approach has helped. 

In fact I think I will print out your post and put it on my wall to remind myself not to just forget about it.


----------



## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

Thank you Pam, I too feel very inspired and heartened by what you're telling us. Please teach us, I want to understand. I am loathe to admit it but after all this time practicing meditation and some DBT tactics, I don't feel soothed. I feel more like a cloud and as tortured as ever. Maybe a little less lost, but.. I think that I must have it all wrong. Distracting is listed as one of the self soothing approaches but like you said its not really self soothing. Oppsite emotion doesn't work for me either.


----------



## Pam (Feb 14, 2009)

LALoner said:


> ^^^ You got my interest, now how do you self sooth?


It's kind of a long story, so I put it in a blog entry today.

Short answer: I write in an Inner Child Diary. My stuck parts write whatever they feel (without me criticizing, correcting, or censoring). This relieves their suffering and over time, I feel, and am, stronger and can handle more. So, basically I am soothing the inner hurt parts of me.


----------



## Pam (Feb 14, 2009)

popeet said:


> Thank you Pam, I too feel very inspired and heartened by what you're telling us. Please teach us, I want to understand. I am loathe to admit it but after all this time practicing meditation and some DBT tactics, I don't feel soothed. I feel more like a cloud and as tortured as ever. Maybe a little less lost, but.. I think that I must have it all wrong. Distracting is listed as one of the self soothing approaches but like you said its not really self soothing. Oppsite emotion doesn't work for me either.


Ooohh, I hate meditating!!!! :haha

I bought a workbook about DBT and as usual, like with many other things, i didn't get far with it. I remember there was a section where I wrote a list of things down on an index card that i could do to (I think it was to distract myself) when I had overwhelming inappropriate emotions. I thought of good stuff (including play speedy bubbles on internet, listen to loud music, etc) But guess what? When I was overly upset or even having flashbacks or regressions or whatever you want to call it, ummm, that card was useless. I didn't even know it existed at the time, and even if i did, I would be too hysterically crying or too angry. I was in no condition to be playing any games or going for a walk! It actually made me feel even more unstable that i couldn't do what the book said to do, and so I never picked it up again.

I don't mean to say that DBT or CBT methods are totally useless. They are good for some people, and even for me in some situations! 

I don't hink I made it as far as "opposite emotion." If that's what i think it is....I probably didn't miss anything! Lol! Sounds like it would've just pissed me off.

Soothing has to be something that actually FEELS GOOD to you, the individual. As far as I can tell that's the only way it'll work, you know?


----------



## Ramondo (Feb 16, 2011)

Monroee said:


> Whenever my therapist says I'm doing good or improving, I have an extreme urge to act out in his office. Why is this? Its so confusing.


That's happened to me in the past (not acting out, but OCPD argumentativeness). When it happens to me, I feel totally misunderstood. I suppose there's an acute attack of anxiety that the therapist didn't understand me at all. I don't feel that I'm improving, and here's this guy who's supposed to understand me who says I am! What's going on? You feel like you need to challenge him in some way, so that he'll continue to take your condition seriously. 
Anyhow, I think it's bad thing for therapists to say to most people. Clients know whether they're improving or not.


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

I've been on lamictal (a mood stabilizer) for a week at 25mg (you have to start slowly to work up to 100mg), and was feeling pretty good the last couple of days, but I didn't know if it was due to that or CBT (refuting/ignoring negative thoughts for the last few weeks).

I looked it up on crazymeds and it says "It also lightly brushes the 5-HT3 serotonin receptor and the sigma *opioid receptors*, which probably account for its lovely antidepressant properties. Nothing like a combined serotonin and opiate reaction."

"The antidepressant effects can start at 25mg a day, although it usually hits around 100mg a day. No, really, at 25mg a day you may get a lift from Lamictal (lamotrigine). Plenty of people have reported that. Mood stabilization effects begin somewhere between 100 and 200mg a day."

I've felt probably better than just stopping negative thoughts would do, though when they come back I definitely feel their depressive weight. But when they're gone I do feel a bit of that physical euphoria. I wonder how long it will last.

And also, the relaxation tape in the CBT audio series has you imagine all this positive energy and good feelings in your body, which helps counteract the physical dysphoria also, though I've only managed to listen to it a couple of times so far. But I think it will be helpful also.

And speaking of distractions, that is apparently the basis of the Linden method - you're supposed to just put all thoughts of your problems with anxiety out of your mind in order to calm your amygdala down. But I saw some post on here of somebody who had gotten over anxiety with it, only to have it all come crashing back when he couldn't distract himself anymore, like trying not to think of an elephant or something.

And the audio series also has you use distractions when you catch yourself having negative thoughts, but he says it's not something you'll need to do long term - it's just something to use early on.


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## aefox92 (Mar 28, 2011)

There's pretty much no way I don't have this. I got extremely attached to my ex-boyfriend and would alternate between freaking out when he didn't text me constantly or threatening to break up with him, I knew he was getting angry but I kept doing it. Getting irritated by something and it's just like all the walls fall down and one little bad thing can make me have a complete meltdown and it just escalates, insulting whoever I happen to be talking to and threatening to kill myself, then after an hour or two I'm perfectly calm and back to normal.


----------



## hypnotized (Jun 18, 2008)

I have been reading about this and I am convinced that my therapist has been practicing Transference-Focused Therapy for BPD with me. It seems like a wise mode of treatment, actually. If you have BPD and havent heard about this type of therapy you might find it really interesting.


----------



## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

I was good for 5 days straight then my mood rotated again and have been bed ridden depressed/suicidal for the weekend...


----------



## aronf13 (Apr 19, 2010)

doublepost


----------



## aronf13 (Apr 19, 2010)

EarlGreyDregs said:


> Whenever my therapist says I'm doing good or improving, I have an extreme urge to act out in his office. Why is this? Its so confusing.


ME TOO, **** THIS FEELING, IT SUCKS 

Is this something that's characteristically borderline or can it be seen in other therapeutic diagnoses? It's so frustrating because most people enjoy hearing positive support and recognition, but it's just as uncomfortable for me to give that out as it for me to receive it, which makes making friends much more difficult.


----------



## aronf13 (Apr 19, 2010)

and I have it...the criteria that fits me:

- Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5

- A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

- Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., promiscuous sex, eating disorders, binge eating, substance abuse, reckless driving). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5

- Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).

- Chronic feelings of emptiness

- Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms


----------



## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

edit


----------



## kesker (Mar 29, 2011)

I joined this website just after much of this conversation took place and I found myself reading the entire thread from start to finish and I will probably read it again. All I could keep thinking was how inspiring you all are, you've put so much work into helping yourselves. It was a liitle hard to focus on all the information because I kept fading out to visions of my own ineptitude and how far removed I am from actively participating in my own dream of transformation. I hope some of you rub off on me...soon. If you don't, I'm not sure what I'll do. Take care.


----------



## kezza (Nov 10, 2011)

*Info Please*

Hey just recently started seeing a chick with BPD and really like her and was wondering if there anything I can do to make things easyer on her,So she dont have to go throu any more $H1+ thanks any info whould be a big help


----------



## Luciana (Nov 10, 2011)

EarlGreyDregs said:


> Some of the main problems is trouble with interpersonal relationships, fears of abandonment/rejection, self-harm, suicidality, explosive/uncontrollable emotions, and self-destructive behaviour such as eating disorders, drug abuse or sexual promiscuity. It's caused generally by people with abusive childhoods.
> 
> My main symptoms are the fears of abandonment, self-harm, suicidality, uncontrollable emotions, obsessions and attention-seeking behaviours.


This is me. ---- abandonment issues, self destructive behaviors,uncontrollable emotions,obsessions,attention seeking behavior.

My borderline issues have caused me to have serious social anxiety bc I'm so afraid to interact with people and causing them pain with my problem.

Sometimes I also feel like i don't have a conscience...as thought my feelings and needs are more important at any given moment. It's awful. I hate being this way. 10% of all borderlines commit suicide...while I don't condone self harm or suicide, feeling this way all the time certainly makes me understand why self harm and suicide seem like the only way out.
I used to be a cutter. Terrible cutting...all the time. I haven't touched a blade to my skin in any way other than shaving in almost 5 years.


----------



## kezza (Nov 10, 2011)

*???*

Sounds like a very horrible condition,How do you cope? Is there any thing that you do or that others do to make this easyer on your self?


----------



## precious007 (Jan 12, 2009)

NaturalLogOfZero said:


> Reading your posts and checking out some other BPD stuff makes me think I could have it...
> 
> -I have uncontrollable anger outburst over completely ridiculous things (like someone driving a little slow on a snowy road)
> - Most of the time I have a horrible self image. I've never been in a relationship because I feel like I'm not good enough for anyone. I'm always worried i'll end up like my dad and ruin some ones life. I convince myself that no one would ever be interested in me.
> ...


you sound just like me, many of your symptoms I am living with.

In my opinion it's OCD, I'm not sure about Borderline though.

Do you also get the intrusive thoughts that seem to bother you? Mostly could be hurting others/thinking of family members going though horrible stuff/always thinking that you might be a failure/ getting anxious over nothing... you just mentioned that.

It's more than likely you have GAD and OCD.


----------

