# Not sure where it's going with her



## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I mentioned how I met a girl with SA and how after texting with her quite frequently in the beginning, she got the sense that I liked her and she told me that she wasn't looking for a relationship but would like to be friends. Some friends close to me (including users on here) told me that I shouldn't give up with her. That she likely is the type to want to take things slow and that I should aim to be her friend before I consider exploring more while I explore options elsewhere. That a friendship is a good core basis for a relationship. 

Over the past three weeks, she's started to seemingly communicate more interest in me. After the meetup the week after, I invited her to join us at this place in Toronto. She told me that she'd text me if she decides to go. She actually made the effort to go. But then she turned back when I told her that it started to rain heavily. But she asked me if I would take a raincheck for that place for next week and we had a nice text exchange that night.

The second week, we attended two meets and chatted a good bit before the first. After that we walked and talked on our way out. And she said that she was waiting for a friend to text her to go out later. She asked me if I'd like to hang out a bit in the mean time. We went into a coffee shop. That "hang out a bit" ended up being 2 hours+. Only 20 minutes of it was just me and her alone though. Because three people from our meetup actually walked into the coffee shop and joined us at our table. 

When she went to go order something in the lineup near the end of the night, one of the girls from that meetup group was like, "you like her don't you?" Then she was saying, "she likes you too. I can tell from her body language, the way she looks at you and the signals that she gives you. But you don't make much eye contact with her so you are missing all the signals. You should ask her out before you regret it." I told the girl about the "I'm not looking for a relationship" speech that she gave me and she said, "you were moving things too fast in the beginning. She is the type of girl that will want you to show her that you're interested in her for more than her looks. You need to be her friend first and get to know each other before you take things further."

Then the next day, she took a chair from another table (since my table was full) and went to sit at my table next to me. And we chatted a bit individually and then as a group. We got seperated after that due to outside forces. When she went to go home, she actually interrupted me while I was on a phone call to say bye and said see ya next week. Then when she was close to walking out of the shop, she waved at me and smiled (when she smiles at me, it feels like there's something more there)

Then week three, meetup number 1, I find her waiting outside the building. When I get there, she enters with me. And we chat before the meeting. I mention liking to play pool during the meeting and she said that she does too. She says that we should play sometime. I tell her about this great place that I'm familiar with where you can play on the cheap. I suggest we go over there right after the meeting tomorrow (it's within walking distance). She says that she is going out with a friend that day but that she'd like to go during the mid-week with me. She asks me how Tuesday evening sounded. I said that's fine. After the meeting ended, we hung out outside as a group and when she went to go home, she said that she's looking forward to playing pool with me on Tuesday. 

Then Tuesday noon-ish I text with her to iron out the details. We have a bit of a good text exchange while I'm at work. We chatted for a good 30+ minutes at the bar. She was wearing business casual attire (jacket, shirt, pants, shoes). She looked great. She did have a job interview at a bakery four hours prior. But I somehow doubt that's the reason why she's dressed so nicely for this occassion... I seemed under-dressed by comparison. I wore a plaid button-down shirt, a nice pair of Levis though I had my work business casual shoes on. After chatting for 30+ minutes, we wanted to go play pool. But the area was reserved at the bar for a tournament. I informed her of another bar 2 minutes away that had pool tables. While we were on our way there, I informed her that it was considerably more expensive. But she said that she came all the way down there to play pool so we were gonna play. I put down the $20 for the pool table but she stepped in and handed me a $10 so that there would be an equitable split.

While we were playing, she was beating me (lol). She even cheated a little bit and I teased her about that. I don't know if she was doing this on purpose but she was giving me numerous opportunities to get a "good view". She was giving me pointers throughout the night so that I could stand a chance against her. lol. Eventually I did get my groove going but still lost. After pool, she mentioned that she would be heaving left to her bus but asked me where I parked my car. I was parked on a residential street to the right of where we are at. She said that she'd walk me to my car and then she'd have to take a bus afterwards (I think she was looking downward when she said that. The bus is at the opposite direction so she would have been going out of her way walking me to my car.) I then offered to give her a ride to her place. She said "you sure you don't mind going out of your way?" We walked to my car. We chatted but we did have some silence. She pointed out it was a long walk. I chuckled and said that it was hard to get parking there. We chatted the whole way through (a good 7 min drive) while in the car. I dropped her home. She thanked me once again. She had fun and she wanted to play pool again. But at that cheaper bar. lol.

This "hang out"/"date" session is the most enjoyable I've had out of my recent dates/semi-dates with girls by far. Conversationally, I thought her and I clicked well.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I asked her if she wanted to do pool again this week. She agreed but told me to invite other members from our meetup group to join. 

From the advice I got, apparently it's not "game over". It just seems that she wants to work at a slower pace than I would like to (which is the advice I got on here last time based on my interactions with her a month ago). But I worry that this whole thing is just going to lead me to wasting my time and resources (gas money, doing all this driving, etc.) I feel like I'm getting mixed signals from her. 

She lives in the city (well an up-town area of it). I live in the burbs to the west. It takes me like 35 minutes (mostly highway driving) or so to drive to the area that we usually hang out. If it's not going anywhere with her, I don't feel like investing the time and resources necessary to meet her mid-week. I'm not hurting for cash at all or anything. But if we're never going to go beyond friends, I don't want to put in that kind of effort and investment into meeting with her mid-week. Even though it probably is good "practice" to build my social skills to be socializing with a female friend. But I'm just getting at an age where I just want to give up trying to find a mate and just resort to escorts (while escorts get a lot of hate on here, I've had largely positive experiences with them. My experiences with sex with "regular" women haven't been very positive compared to professionals). Ultimately I want love and not just sex. But if women are going to play hard to get and play games and be fickle and expect you to make all the right moves and what not, what is there to love? 

My experiences with the opposite sex thus far have been negative. I am a great guy but it seems like the only women who appreciate me on THAT level are unattractive, crazy women. And I know I wouldn't be happy settling for a woman I'm not attracted to. Especially if she has mental stability issues. At least with the escorts, I'm pretty sure that they are being honest when they tell me that I'm cute or hot or whatever. And I'm much more attractive than their regular clients (middle-aged married men). I've had compliments about my appearance from women before. And girls online have agreed to go on dates with me. But it seems like when it comes to the conversational/social interaction aspect, that's where they lose their interest. I don't "make all the right moves" and they lose interest. And I'm getting fed up with how fickle this gender is.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Let me just say that I want to read this, I really do, but I just can't bring myself to do it. Most of the time any of these situations can be boiled down to a few key points, and although when you're frustrated it's hard not to recount every single angle and detail, trust me - it's not as complicated as you're thinking. Please shorten this so it can be read by non-scholars


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

I read it, and I'm sorry I missed it last week somehow. Rymo has a point in that we have a tendency to make things too complicated-most situations I believe can be boiled down to a few key points.

Personally, my patience would be wearing thin. I'm not one to take things slowly. I've never really had a successful relationship that started out slowly. It really doesn't appeal to me. If you can handle it and are on the same page, then fine. Does she know for sure you're attracted to her in a romantic sense? I'm trying to recall the original post on this situation.

In my opinion, something needs to happen soon, or I would write it off. If you can use the situation to lower your anxiety, then by all means do so. I wouldn't get too emotionally invested in her until you know her intentions though.


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## pineapplebun (Oct 25, 2011)

I only read the 2nd post because yeah TL;DR D:

Anyways, I don't think a girl like her is trying to play hard to get. She doesn't know you very well, you guys have known each other for a month max? Even if you talked everyday, some girls want to take their time to see if there is compatibility beyond the superficial things before deciding to invest into a relationship, where things get complicated cause of attachment. They want to know if they like you for YOU - what kind of person you are, not that your just attractive and seemingly charming. I mean first impressions can be easily wrong, no? So people want to take the time to allow the true colours show. I guess in this case it can just be written up as you two are incompatible with the pace of things - you prefer someone who is more fast-paced nor do you have the patience or understanding and respect for someone who goes at a slower pace.

I know this will sound like an attack but it's more just something to ponder - that maybe you haven't met the right girl? Or maybe if all your social interactions with girls haven't been that great, that maybe you aren't communicating what a great guy you are effectively (possibly from overthinking/overanalyzing which easily ruins moments) or you just aren't as great as you think you are.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

She had a sense in the beginning (and said so to me basically) like 1-2 days in after meeting her (this was like four weeks ago) that I was interested in her. She mentioned that she's not looking for a relationship, but would like to be friends. I discussed this on sas. The general consensus pretty much was that she is likely the type to take it slow. Friendship first then something can build from that later. She has SA, I met her off a SA support group, she's unemployed, she's had SA all her life. She has issues and Im not anywhere close to knowing about all her issues. She hasn't talked a whole lot about her SA with me.

I would think that if she knew I liked her and she had no interest in me in that way, she wouldn't have done all that she did. I don't know what her deal is. Maybe she thinks I was coming on a bit too strong recently again or something happened on our night out together that turned her off. If I played pool with her last week and she had fun, it seems discouraging when she says "let's invite others from the group" to play with us this week.

I'm just fed up with women. How am I supposed to find love if I'm finding it difficult to find reason to love women? I can get sex if I really want it. But I want something more. I want that fairy tale long-term relationship you see in the media and what not. But I feel like its a lie and humans are just self-centered *******s who only want to serve themselves and women suck and aren't as wonderful as we think they are. They tell you todo this and this and that to attract women. I feel like I have to sell myself out. Like I can't be myself. But I want someone to love the real me. Not the fake me. And I grow bitter seeing what I see.

Right now I'm actually very close to quitting my support group and just go back to the life I had before: sitting at home watching tv, playing video games, etc. because I feel like friendship and relationships are bull****. No one cares about me (but it is what it is. I'm not a fun person to be around when I confide in others. So I either need to suck it up and bottle everything inside or just detach myself from others.) When I open up about myself and confide in others, I end up boring them to death (see this thread). I have to pay someone to want to listen to me (therapist). How pathetic is that?



pineapplebun said:


> you prefer someone who is more fast-paced nor do you have the patience or understanding and respect for someone who goes at a slower pace.
> 
> or you just aren't as great as you think you are.


Well at least you are honest about your impression of me...


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## pineapplebun (Oct 25, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> The general consensus pretty much was that she is likely the type to take it slow.* Friendship first then something can build from that later. She has SA, I met her off a SA support group, she's unemployed, she's had SA all her life. She has issues and Im not anywhere close to knowing about all her issues.* She hasn't talked a whole lot about her SA with me.
> 
> If I played pool with her last week and she had fun, it seems discouraging when she says "let's invite others from the group" to play with us this week.
> 
> ...


The way I see it is, you want someone to love the real you, and perhaps that is what she is trying to do - trying to get to know who you really are with the test of time. First impressions rarely accurately represent anyone and let's be honest, many people also put up a front. I'm also a firm believer that the best relationships have a foundation of friendship, I mean they aren't just your lover but your best friend kind of deal, and friendships take time to build.

You also mention that she has isn't exactly in the best position in life, and that could also make her hesitant to pursue something more because people don't want to be a burden to a potential partner. Have you ever asked her directly how she feels about you recently since her actions seem to be confusing you? I have a friend who really likes this girl, but he became so distraught at actually following through just because he isn't financially stable at the moment and the girl was reciprocating her feelings to him as well. Although asking friends for input is great, your best source of insight is through her so that you can understand where she is coming from, what your position is, and it can help you decide whether to just move on or not by bringing some sort of closure.

As for quitting the group and giving up on friendships/relationships, I rather hope not. I'm personally not bored and I don't think the others are either when you open up. If they truly didn't care, we wouldn't even bother responding to the thread and taking time to share our own thoughts on the matter. But just a wall of text is really overwhelming to read.

As for my impression of you? I don't even know you, so I have absolutely no opinion of you - positive or negative, I'm not judgmental like that. I also mentioned in that same quote that maybe you just aren't effectively conveying what a great guy you are but you focused on that one negative aspect. But it was food for thought. If I get a chance to meet you at the support group I'll let you know my first impressions, deal? xD


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

phoenixwright said:


> She had a sense in the beginning (and said so to me basically) like 1-2 days in after meeting her (this was like four weeks ago) that I was interested in her. She mentioned that she's not looking for a relationship, but would like to be friends. I discussed this on sas. The general consensus pretty much was that she is likely the type to take it slow. Friendship first then something can build from that later. She has SA, I met her off a SA support group, she's unemployed, she's had SA all her life. She has issues and Im not anywhere close to knowing about all her issues. She hasn't talked a whole lot about her SA with me.
> 
> I would think that if she knew I liked her and she had no interest in me in that way, she wouldn't have done all that she did. I don't know what her deal is. Maybe she thinks I was coming on a bit too strong recently again or something happened on our night out together that turned her off. If I played pool with her last week and she had fun, it seems discouraging when she says "let's invite others from the group" to play with us this week.
> 
> ...


Wow. You sound so much like me right now. It sucks dude...


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

*Edited Opening post*

My opening post now has 36-37% less fat. lol. I'm very anal with detail. I probably could cut more but I didn't want to risk leaving out important stuff since I over-analyze the importance of things like a typical SAer.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

pineapplebun said:


> If we didn't care we wouldn't bother responding to the thread and taking time to share our own thoughts on the matter. But just a wall of text is
> overwhelming to read
> 
> 
> > Not really if you actually care, and have an attention span longer than a toddler's.


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## awkwardsilent (Jun 14, 2012)

I don't know she may just be slow to open up I know I am. Usually by the time I let my walls down the other person has moved on. :/


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## pineapplebun (Oct 25, 2011)

srschirm said:


> Not really if you actually care, and have an attention span longer than a toddler's.


Definitely guilty of short attention span.

Anyways I think she's interested and from what your friend hinted at, seems like you aren't catching her signals too so maybe she feels like your giving off mixed signals as well. I understand that of course you don't want to waste time if she doesn't have any intention to pursue things, but since her actions seem conflicting, I would just directly talk to her about it and see how she feels about the whole situation - maybe her mind changed since the last time she said she wasn't looking or maybe she does have worries that are causing her to hesitate. Communication is key so that you both can understand each other and be on the same page. Also saves you from stressing by over-analyzing the situation because there are so many angles. We're all guilty of over-analyzing things so why not save yourself some stress and just get the truth from her? Then you can decide what to do. Best of luck!


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

I read the whole thing (or at least the slimmed down version). All I have to say is that it seems like things are going fine. She even trusted you enough to give her a ride to her house. Personally, I'd only let a guy know where I live if I trust him.

Things are moving a bit slow, but it's only because you're mostly just seeing each other in the meetings. See how things go when the group meets next time and take it from there...

_I am a great guy but it seems like the only women who appreciate me on THAT level are unattractive, crazy women._
That's a pretty nasty thing to say for a "great guy."


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> I read the whole thing (or at least the slimmed down version). All I have to say is that it seems like things are going fine. She even trusted you enough to give her a ride to her house. Personally, I'd only let a guy know where I live if I trust him.
> 
> Things are moving a bit slow, but it's only because you're mostly just seeing each other in the meetings. See how things go when the group meets next time and take it from there..


Well yeah it's only been group meets and hanging out (in a group setting) after group meets aside from that date Tuesday last week where it was just the two of us. This week she agreed to play pool again (which we do Thursday night). But wanted me to invite others from the group. That's why I feel discouraged. We hung out solo. And now she wants to hang out in a group setting. It feels like a step back. A friend of mine thinks that she doesn't want to have two dates/semi-dates week to week like that. That she wants to go at a slower pace.

Honestly I like the "philosophy" behind going at a slow pace. I don't mind doing so because even I feel that we don't know each other all that well yet. I have to admit that if I kissed her now, let alone slept with her, it wouldn't be as "magical" as it would be if we had a deeper "social link" between us. I want a build up towards that moment (though I would like the "getting to know each other" process to speed up. I developed emotions for a girl I talked to online long-distance within 3 days. Meanwhile I've known this girl for a month and I'm nowhere close to there yet). I want to get to know her more. For one, she hasn't really talked about her SA much. I think modern dating is very unnatural. The physical attraction is there yes and I feel a spark there that I rarely feel with other women. But I don't know her that well yet. It's just a situation where I want to know if I'm wasting my time or not. Whether the potential is really there. Right now I feel a spark. And I think she's beautiful, sweet, good-natured, intelligent and she's showed her fun side a bit to me (though I want to bring more of that out of her).

I'm 100% positive that she knows I like her (I kinda already admitted that to her in the beginning). She has to know that I'm hoping to take things to the next level in the future. And with the signals she gives out, it's not like she's telling me to stop (though suggesting I invite others from the group for Thursday seems discouraging. When I meet her Thursday and we interact, I'll see how it goes. And it's just going to be me, her and some close friends of mine who know I like her. It's going to be a more intimate, comfortable setting than at the meetings.)



AllToAll said:


> _I am a great guy but it seems like the only women who appreciate me on THAT level are unattractive, crazy women._
> That's a pretty nasty thing to say for a "great guy."


How is that a pretty nasty thing to say? There are attractive people and unattractive people. Maybe "crazy" is insensitive. But the women I'm referring to had really, really serious mental issues (that go beyond social anxiety and depression) that make it difficult for men to tolerate a relationship with them.


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## TrcyMcgrdy1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Anyway, where you at now? You been talking to her? any dates? pecks ont he cheek? sharing of spaghetti? Magic carpet rides?


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

TrcyMcgrdy1 said:


> Anyway, where you at now? You been talking to her? any dates? pecks ont he cheek? sharing of spaghetti? Magic carpet rides?


I take it you didn't read the opening post. lol. So you're probably not up to speed with what has been happening...
Talking to her: I text with her sparingly now. I do most of the talking with her in-person. But usually in a group setting. We do get to chat one-on-one before the meeting at one of our meetups and a bit during the meeting though.
Dates: We had what could be considered one date last week. But I'm not sure if it was a 1 on 1 friendly hang-out or a date.
Pecks on the cheek: Nope. I didn't go for a kiss of any kind. If she was giving me a signal to go for it, I missed it.
Sharing of spaghetti and Magic Carpet Rides: Nope


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## TrcyMcgrdy1 (Oct 21, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> I take it you didn't read the opening post. lol. So you're probably not up to speed with what has been happening...
> Talking to her: I text with her sparingly now. I do most of the talking with her in-person. But usually in a group setting. We do get to chat one-on-one before the meeting at one of our meetups and a bit during the meeting though.
> Dates: We had what could be considered one date last week. But I'm not sure if it was a 1 on 1 friendly hang-out or a date.
> Pecks on the cheek: Nope. I didn't go for a kiss of any kind. If she was giving me a signal to go for it, I missed it.
> Sharing of spaghetti and Magic Carpet Rides: Nope


Nah I read it, I was just hoping something awesome happened. Usually when i type something/say something preposterous, it is true. So I try to say positively awesome preposterous things rather than negative if chances are high it has likely happened!


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> Well yeah it's only been group meets and hanging out (in a group setting) after group meets aside from that date Tuesday last week where it was just the two of us. This week she agreed to play pool again (which we do Thursday night). But wanted me to invite others from the group. That's why I feel discouraged. We hung out solo. And now she wants to hang out in a group setting. It feels like a step back. A friend of mine thinks that she doesn't want to have two dates/semi-dates week to week like that. That she wants to go at a slower pace.


Well, think back to when you were texting. When she felt things were going fast, she let you know. Maybe this [inviting other people] is her way of saying "let's take it slow." See how the group thing goes. Maybe you two will be the last to go, maybe you'll give her another ride home, and maybe then you can ask her if she's in any way interested in you. Yes, you want to take it at her pace, but you also need to know if this is going anywhere for your own peace of mind. And if she says no, start thinking of whether or not you'd be okay with a friendship. Perhaps what you really need is a female friend in your life because from the looks of your other posts you don't feel natural talking to women, and I think it's because you always want something from them or want to take things to "the next level."



> Honestly I like the "philosophy" behind going at a slow pace. I don't mind doing so because even I feel that we don't know each other all that well yet. Yeah I'd like to kiss her. I'd like to sleep with her. But I have to admit that if I kissed her now, let alone slept with her, it wouldn't be as "magical" as it would be if we had a deeper "social link" between us. I want a build up towards that moment. I want to get to know her more. For one, she hasn't really talked about her SA much. I think modern dating is very unnatural. The physical attraction is there yes and I feel a spark there that I rarely feel with other women. But I don't know her that well yet. It's just a situation where I want to know if I'm wasting my time or not. Whether the potential is really there.


Have you asked her about SAD? Some people simply don't like talking about it. I used to cry when I spoke about it, so you can't really expect her to open up about something personal when she doesn't know you all that well. Also, she might not have a lot of experience with guys, or simply bad experiences and that might be why she's in this back-forth of you two being alone and then with other people. Finally, if she doesn't want to date/sleep with you, would it have all been useless? Really? You can't even get a friendship out of it? 
Modern dating is unnatural? As opposed to what? 1950s courtship rituals or marrying a 15 year-old you've only met twice 17th century style? It's not unnatural because _you_ feel unnatural in these situations.



> I'm 100% positive that she knows I like her (I kinda already admitted that to her in the beginning). She has to know that I'm hoping to take things to the next level in the future. And with the signals she gives out, it's not like she's telling me to stop (though suggesting I invite others from the group for Thursday seems discouraging. When I meet her Thursday and we interact, I'll see how it goes. And it's just going to be me, her and some close friends of mine who know I like her. It's going to be a more intimate, comfortable setting than at the meetings.)


She probably does know. How about if you ask her whether or not she's interested in you and that you'd be okay with just a friendship if she's not looking for more? (If the latter is true, of course)



> How is that a pretty nasty thing to say? There are attractive people and unattractive people. Maybe "crazy" is insensitive. But the women I'm referring to had really, really serious mental issues (that go beyond social anxiety and depression) that make it difficult for men to tolerate a relationship with them.


It's judgmental for one, which, and I don't mean to offend you with this, but you come off as so through your posts. You read into everything and assume things about people based on baseless accounts. A person who's actually great, wouldn't refer to people this way; not to mention decide to marry someone out of pity. 
Let's go ahead with the comment, though, and assume "ugly, crazy" women lean towards you... Maybe that's telling of you and the type of person you are around women.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> It's judgmental for one, which, and I don't mean to offend you with this, but you come off as so through your posts. You read into everything and assume things about people based on baseless accounts. A person who's actually great, wouldn't refer to people this way; not to mention decide to marry someone out of pity.
> Let's go ahead with the comment, though, and assume "ugly, crazy" women lean towards you... Maybe that's telling of you and the type of person you are around women.


You are making all of these assumptions about me. I'll tell you right now that women in real-life get this impression of me of being shy, timid or even aloof (a lot of people seem to think I don't really care. And to be quite honest with you, much of the time I really don't. I don't have that much desire for social interaction. Honestly right now I'm feeling really burned out and I want to leave my group and just do my own thing at home. But then I'll get depressed thinking about my lack of a relationship and how I'm just going to make it that much harder to get back in the game in the future if I isolate myself). They would be absolutely shocked by a lot of the things I say on SAS. They don't know that side of me. They don't see that side. I don't want her to see that side. Because she might not understand it and judge me like you are now.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> You are making all of these assumptions about me. I'll tell you right now that women in real-life get this impression of me of being shy, timid or even aloof (a lot of people seem to think I don't really care. And to be quite honest with you, much of the time I really don't. I don't have that much desire for social interaction. Honestly right now I'm feeling really burned out and I want to leave my group and just do my own thing at home. But then I'll get depressed thinking about my lack of a relationship and how I'm just going to make it that much harder to get back in the game in the future if I isolate myself). They would be absolutely shocked by a lot of the things I say on SAS. They don't know that side of me. They don't see that side. I don't want her to see that side. Because she might not understand it and judge me like you are now.


The same way you judge yourself you judge others. Whatever side you "don't want her to see" is there and she'll eventually see it. She has her own baggage, too, but if there's a side of you/things you say that you don't like maybe, just maybe, you should try to change them.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> The same way you judge yourself you judge others. Whatever side you "don't want her to see" is there and she'll eventually see it. She has her own baggage, too, but if there's a side of you/things you say that you don't like maybe, just maybe, you should try to change them.


That side is there for a reason. At one point I really was that nice guy and thought in a more idealistic way. But then over the years from what I have observed from life, I grew bitter and filled with resentment. Humans are incredibly self-centered. Both men and women. That's why you have to pay someone to listen to you (therapist). I don't find human social relationships all that rewarding. But yet I still have a basic human urge for companionship on some level (ie. wanting a girlfriend). Personally I find that dogs make better companions than humans. But a dog is not like having a girlfriend right?

Personally I think you have a very black/white view of people. You think yourself morally righteous and look down on me. I can't stand people who think this way.

My "dark side" is there because I was bullied from kindergarten up until well into high school and during that time, girls were often cruel to me. Then I started avoiding people and this just made my social skills even worse. And made it even more difficult for me to relate to people, especially women. And it's been hard to get back into the game because women seem to not have the patience for a guy who doesn't talk much and they assume we're damaged goods if we seem relatively inexperienced or whatever. These kind of things make you grow bitter. Women who were very keen to go out on a date with me based on my appearance and our interactions online/texting have lost all interest once they saw how quiet and socially awkward I was on dates.

I would like to think that the girl I like would try to at least understand why I have the demons that I do. And not let that side take away from my good qualities.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> That side is there for a reason. At one point I really was that nice guy and thought in a more idealistic way. But then over the years from what I have observed from life, I grew bitter and filled with resentment. Humans are incredibly self-centered. Both men and women. That's why you have to pay someone to listen to you (therapist). I don't find human social relationships all that rewarding. But yet I still have a basic human urge for companionship on some level (ie. wanting a girlfriend). Personally I find that dogs make better companions than humans. But a dog is not like having a girlfriend right?
> 
> Personally I think you have a very black/white view of people. You think yourself morally righteous and look down on me. I can't stand people who think this way.
> 
> ...


If I had defined you by solely that comment, I wouldn't have given you any advice. I don't know you nor how you act in RL, but from the sum of some of your comments I think there is an awkwardness between you and women (OKCupid date and convo you had about BJ with a random guy at a bar). The purpose of my comment was for you to think about the type of person you are, particularly amongst women, since it seems like you don't want anything with them except sex and a romantic relationship (i.e. your comment about wasting your time behind SAD girl). Everyone has **** they've been through that has damaged them; we're all damaged. I wasn't boxing you in the bad guy standard, but if you do want a relationship I think you need to do some digging within yourself and try to reevaluate certain parts.

Again, if I thought you were a horrible person I wouldn't have bothered with reading your whole post and giving you my two cents.

As with everything online, take it with a grain of salt.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Ok I hung out with her and a group of three others with SA that I'm close with. I was the quietest one in the group (I had my moments but I was mostly quiet). She was much more sociable and outgoing. When I walked her to my car and on the ride to her place, then I started being talkative again. The conversation flowed rather well. Usually I suck at 1 on 1 (see past dates). But I find that I'm not so bad 1 on 1 with her. Group conversations are the death of me. I can be rather talkative in a group situation at times. But there are plenty of days and/or instances where I fade and find myself locked out of a conversation. And during instances where I could contribute, it seems that someone else is always jumping in and then I never get a chance to say what I wanted to say.

I find that I have the most social anxiety out of the five of us and I probably have the worst social and conversational skills. I'm probably the least talkative. Even during times where I wasn't socially anxious, I found it hard to talk because people were discussing about something I wasn't knowledgeable about and therefore I couldn't contribute to the conversation. I would just fade.

And once again, I failed to really get to know her as well as I would have liked. She doesn't exactly talk a whole lot about her SA or her past. That sort of thing (neither do I though I guess.)

I had this feeling of wanting to leave the group and just go back to my old ways of social isolation. And tonight, I was feeling like that again. I felt so embarrassed that I seemed to be so out of it socially. But then I think "but then what? What's my life going to be like? Sit at home and watch TV/anime, play videogames and read books/manga? Maybe visit the odd escort here and there for some "excitement"? It's a ****ty situation to be in. Because you want a way out because you feel embarrassed and you have too much pride to want to keep putting yourself through this. But at the same time, you know what your life is like when you go back to the old routine and you weren't happy then.

It's hard for me to really "gauge" her interest level. For one, I failed to make much eye contact with her. AGAIN. lol. Part of it is that I feel that if I do look at her when she's not talking to me, I feel like I'd give off creeper vibes or something. But even when we are talking to each other, I forget to make eye contact with her.

I also felt really nervous and restless going into this because the highway was unexpectantly congested for 7-8pm and I got honked at on a local road for making what was probably a dangerous lane change because a car ahead of me was stalled and I was impatiently waiting for cars behind me to the lane to the left to give me a chance to go into their lane (I had my left signal on the whole time so they knew what I wanted to do. But they don't give a chance). I was in a similar situation on the highway at night (except it wasn't a stalled car, the lane was closed for construction). Except this time I was playing it conservatively and then I got honked at because someone gave me a chance and I didn't take it right away (I wanted to make sure that he wasn't going to go. When you're anxious like that, you get timid).

While many people on here just have social anxiety, I find that I am just an overall anxious person in general. Social situations, novel situations, driving, sex. All things that cause me anxiety. I probably would meet the diagnostic criteria for generalized anxiety disorder.


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## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

She has social anxiety. Perhaps her social anxiety is making her behave ssssssllllloooooowwwww.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I think it's readily apparent that my social anxiety, or at the very least my social skills (maybe not so much social anxiety really), are much more impaired than hers. On paper I probably appear to be more well-adjusted since I'm employed full-time in my field, make good money for my age and I drive a nice car (being a relative notice, I make a lot of mistakes on the road. Thankfully no accidents). But I readily admit that I am extremely lucky to have my job. I got my "in" through a contact. And once they saw I was a good performer, they kept me on. And then I was offered a higher-paying position within the same field (but at a different section) in the company.

She mentioned something (not in these exact words) about how she feels like she hasn't accomplished much for her age (she's turning 25 whereas I'm turning 27). That gives a little bit of insight into her SA.

I think she's more well-adjusted socially because she lived on campus while attending University. She used to do that whole bar scene in school. I've only started doing that within the last year and I made absolutely no friends in University/college (unless you count "facebook friends"). I lived at home and went to a nearby satellite campus.

I want her to reveal more about herself. But yet I don't feel comfortable talking about my own SA because I fear that she's going to think I'm undateable if she knows the extent of my social and generalized anxiety and how impaired I am socially and in life situations (especially ones that are novel to me). It seems like a lot of SA girls on here want to date an outgoing, extroverted guy. They don't want a socially awkward introvert. Especially one who is more socially awkward than her.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Are you talking to anyone else, or just focusing on her?


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't really understand this whole "getting to know someone" business before being attracted to someone. What a pain. There should be kissing and attraction from the get go.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

komorikun said:


> I don't really understand this whole "getting to know someone" business before being attracted to someone. What a pain. There should be kissing and attraction from the get go.


That is what I'm saying. Attraction just is for me, it doesn't need to develop. Physical attraction anyway.


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> Women who were very keen to go out on a date with me based on my appearance and our interactions online/texting have lost all interest once they saw how quiet and socially awkward I was on dates.


I had that happen a lot. Eventually I grew into not caring about it at all.


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## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

srschirm said:


> That is what I'm saying. Attraction just is for me, it doesn't need to develop. Physical attraction anyway.


Yeah attraction for me should be there at the start or near the start and not develop over time. I do not like the whole "get to know each other" thing. I only ever consider dating someone if I am attracted to them from the start and not after being friends and hanging out with them.


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## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

scarpia said:


> I had that happen a lot. Eventually I grew into not caring about it at all.


Quite a few women have shown interest in me because of my shyness (something they don't realize at the time but see as "mysterious") but then have gone cold simply because they have discovered my mystery and no longer want anythign to do with me except remain friends.


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## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

komorikun said:


> I don't really understand this whole "getting to know someone" business before being attracted to someone. What a pain. There should be kissing and attraction from the get go.


Yep. Attraction should really be there from the start. We are not in a soapie. None of this get to know each other crap. Either I'm attracted to you or i'm not.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

scarpia said:


> I had that happen a lot. Eventually I grew into not caring about it at all.


Yeah after my most recent rejection (the one I went on a date with a month ago. The younger one, not the older woman), I kinda got desensitized to it. Women are not like men. They're not gonna hop into bed with a guy just because he's cute. If a woman wants casual sex, she's going to want a prime alpha male. Tall, ripped with a big dick. Like those big black guys you see in porn. Women are going to want a "connection" with a guy before they go to bed with him. And they tend to not have the same patience with shy guys that men do with shy girls (because men are much more desperate to get laid. Sad but true).

The whole escort thing levels the playing field. When a cute "7" (or whatever I am) pays a woman $200/hour, she's going to treat you like a God (it seems like everyone on here who trashes them has never actually visited one). Because a "7" to an escort is like a 9-10 because they're so used to having sex with balding middle-aged+ married men with a belly. One escort put me on her preferred customer list after one session ($50 discount) and she will do stuff for me that she won't with other clients. If I didn't pay, that escort wouldn't sleep with me. But that's only because plenty of 9-10 guys would be gunning for her and there's only so many guys that she's going to agree to sleep with. It's like parking in downtown Toronto. You have a finite number of spaces and lots of motorist traffic down there. So the rates are going to be very, very expensive. If you're willing to pay $30 to park at the Air Canada Centre, you get the parking spot. If you're willing to pay $200-250/hour, you get to bang a hot woman with little effort. Same concept.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Very true, way to bring economics into it as well. I definitely don't need a connection to sleep with someone, but it's certainly nice if it's there.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

Hmmm a guy who frequents hookers and thinks women owe him something for no more than him being a "nice guy" (according to said hookers). What's not to love?:sus


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

diamondheart89 said:


> Hmmm a guy who frequents hookers and thinks women owe him something for no more than him being a "nice guy" (according to said hookers). What's not to love?:sus


You're not a man, so you wouldn't understand.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

srschirm said:


> You're not a man, so you wouldn't understand.


What exactly is the mystery here? It seems woefully simple. :blank


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

diamondheart89 said:


> What exactly is the mystery here? It seems woefully simple. :blank


You don't understand the effort many of us have to put in, and still not get the desired results.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

srschirm said:


> You don't understand the effort many of us have to put in, and still not get the desired results.


Yes because women don't put effort into anything. We just put on lipstick and then men fall to their knees and offer to marry us.

Also, I'm wondering whether you realize how quickly you're digging yourself into a ditch here. I've had this arguments dozens of times here, so I can probably type your responses in for you.

Hmm...

"but men have to do the asking, we have so much pressure put on us"
"so do women"
"women have it easier because all men want to have sex with them"
"sex isn't equal to being in an actual relationship"
"women only say they want good decent guys for relationships but then they only date alpha males, it's their own fault"
"clearly what you mean is you've decided to despise women because they won't screw you" 
Blah blah blah

*thread lock*

Wow that was fun, now where's that atheists v. Christians thread....? I don't think that one is as thoroughly exhausted as this topic is. :yawn


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Not quite, but we're discouraged from gender comparisons on here, so if you want to continue, take it to PM.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I'd like to hear this discussion.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

I don't think I ever made it a comparison between men and women. I just said you don't know what it's like to be a man.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I think the difference is that for men it's hard to get your foot in the door but once you're in (get sex), you're in (a relationship). For women it's easy to get your foot in the door (get a date/get laid) but it's hard to get in (a relationship with a guy you like). I've had my foot in the door many times and then got the door slammed right in my face.

I think the reason why men don't understand why women don't have it easy is because they'd like to have all that casual sex. Women don't enjoy it quite as much. And in their experience they could usually get more sex or a relationship after sleeping with a woman. This is not the case in the reverse scenario.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

What you are saying makes some sense, Komorikun. It's weird though, because I know tons of guys who would want the relationship aspect as well.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

srschirm said:


> What you are saying makes some sense, Komorikun. It's weird though, because I know tons of guys who would want the relationship aspect as well.


They want the relationship with someone they really, really like but are willing to sleep with anyone half-way decent looking.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

komorikun said:


> They want the relationship with someone they really, really like but are willing to sleep with anyone half-way decent looking.


Also true. But I for one am not looking for perfection. Just mutual respect and admiration. I think more guys are looking for something less-than-perfect than is realized.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

komorikun said:


> I think the difference is that for men it's hard to get your foot in the door but once you're in (get sex), you're in (a relationship). For women it's easy to get your foot in the door (get a date/get laid) but it's hard to get in (a relationship with a guy you like). I've had my foot in the door many times and then got the door slammed right in my face.
> 
> I think the reason why men don't understand why women don't have it easy is because they'd like to have all that casual sex. Women don't enjoy it quite as much. And in their experience they could usually get more sex or a relationship after sleeping with a woman. This is not the case in the reverse scenario.


Is this just a case of you being more into the guy than the guy is into you?



> They want the relationship with someone they really, really like but are willing to sleep with anyone half-way decent looking.


Could it be said, (women) want sex with someone they really, really like but are willing to have a relationship with anyone half-way decent looking?


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

ManOfFewWords said:


> Is this just a case of you being more into the guy than the guy is into you?


Yes.



> Could it be said, (women) want sex with someone they really, really like but are willing to have a relationship with anyone half-way decent looking?


No, but you do have to lower your standards to get a relationship. I can have sex with really good looking guys but I can only get into a relationship with someone mediocre looking (my league).


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

komorikun said:


> Yes.
> 
> No, but you do have to lower your standards to get a relationship. I can have sex with really good looking guys but I can only get into a relationship with someone mediocre looking (my league).





> I think the reason why men don't understand why women don't have it easy is because they'd like to have all that casual sex. Women don't enjoy it quite as much. And in their experience they could usually get more sex or a relationship after sleeping with a woman. This is not the case in the reverse scenario.


Is this because, stereotypically speaking, women have more emotional needs that can only be fulfilled in the context of a relationship, whereas men don't, so they don't require a relationship, and to get from point A (meeting someone you like) to point C (being in a relationship with that someone), you must pass through point B (sex)? So for women to be happy, they have to follow steps A,B,C whereas men only need A,B to be fulfilled.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

So then women use persuasion to reroute the destination to A,C,B with the promise to visit B only after C.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

ManOfFewWords said:


> Is this because, stereotypically speaking, women have more emotional needs that can only be fulfilled in the context of a relationship, whereas men don't, so they don't require a relationship, and to get from point A (meeting someone you like) to point C (being in a relationship with that someone), you must pass through point B (sex)? So for women to be happy, they have to follow steps A,B,C whereas men only need A,B to be fulfilled.


I don't think it's quite that simple. Maybe because men have higher sex drives they are attracted to large percentage of the opposite sex. I'm not really attracted to most men. Men are also really into having sex with a variety of partners. I like some variety but I'd rather have 2 or 3 regular sex partners over a period of one year or so than have 20 one night stands. The sex just isn't that great the first time. So something regular, even if it isn't a relationship, is preferable.

I don't need to have my emotional needs fulfilled to have sex but one night stands are not even good sexually. I mean it's better than nothing I suppose. But it's just too much work (looking for a guy online or at bars, getting gussied up for the date, wasting my time talking to someone who won't want to see me again, risk getting various STDs, etc.) for very little pay off.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

komorikun said:


> I think the difference is that for men it's hard to get your foot in the door but once you're in (get sex), you're in (a relationship). For women it's easy to get your foot in the door (get a date/get laid) but it's hard to get in (a relationship with a guy you like). I've had my foot in the door many times and then got the door slammed right in my face.
> 
> I think the reason why men don't understand why *women don't have it easy is because they'd like to have all that casual sex. Women don't enjoy it quite as much. And in their experience they could usually get more sex or a relationship after sleeping with a woman. This is not the case in the reverse scenario.*





ManOfFewWords said:


> Is this just a case of you being more into the guy than the guy is into you?
> 
> 
> komorikun said:
> ...





ManOfFewWords said:


> Could it be said, (women) want sex with someone they really, really like but are willing to have a relationship with anyone half-way decent looking?
> 
> 
> komorikun said:
> ...





komorikun said:


> I don't think it's quite that simple. Maybe because men have higher sex drives they are attracted to large percentage of the opposite sex. I'm not really attracted to most men. Men are also really into having sex with a variety of partners. I like some variety but I'd rather have 2 or 3 regular sex partners over a period of one year or so than have 20 one night stands. The sex just isn't that great the first time. So something regular, even if it isn't a relationship, is preferable.
> 
> I don't need to have my emotional needs fulfilled to have sex but one night stands are not even good sexually. I mean it's better than nothing I suppose. *But it's just too much work (looking for a guy online or at bars, getting gussied up for the date, wasting my time talking to someone who won't want to see me again, risk getting various STDs, etc.) for very little pay off.*


So, as a woman (in your league), you can get sex fairly easily from good looking men, because men in general have higher sex drives and will have sex with women that are "half-way decent looking". However, these men you desire will not see you more than once or be in a relationship with you, because they are "really into having sex with a variety of partners" and [they're not as into you as you are into them].

So because you have a hard time sustaining a relationship with a "really good looking guy", "women don't have it easy". And a guy that is "mediocre looking" (your league), is the only guy that will stay in a relationship with you.

What about the guy in "your league"? The equivalent of your situation for him would be he can't live up to your standards, let alone get a "really good looking" woman to sleep with him. It's too much work for him (looking for a girl online or at bars, getting GQ'd up for the date, wasting his time talking to someone who won't have sex with him) for absolutely zero payoff.

My point is, no gender has it "harder" than the other. These really good looking men that won't be in a relationship with you is not a gender-related issue, it's a "you" issue. What else do you have to offer them besides your "mediocre" looks? (I think you look good in your prof pic btw). You're blaming the fact the "good looking men" you've dated don't see you again on their sex-drive, but you fail to acknowledge other possible factors. Are you not showing off all the good qualities of your personality around these men? Are you more shy around them? How do you behave around guys in "your league"? Are you less intimidated by them and more confident? I think you should be thanking the heavens above that "good looking men" will have sex with such a "half-way decent looking" girl, while "mediocre" guys are stuck masturbating to computer screens. Just because you exploited a man's sex-drive doesn't mean he's required to be with you. The truth is, more often than not, we end up settling for someone of the same attractiveness.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

ManOfFewWords said:


> So, as a woman (in your league), you can get sex fairly easily from good looking men, because men in general have higher sex drives and will have sex with women that are "half-way decent looking". However, these men you desire will not see you more than once or be in a relationship with you, because they are "really into having sex with a variety of partners" and [they're not as into you as you are into them].
> 
> So because you have a hard time sustaining a relationship with a "really good looking guy", "women don't have it easy". And a guy that is "mediocre looking" (your league), is the only guy that will stay in a relationship with you.
> 
> ...


I never said that women have it harder but I AM saying that women do NOT have it easier. Mediocre looking guys can get girlfriends. They just can't get casual sex that often. They are not stuck masturbating to computer screens. And if they did get casual sex, they'd probably ditch the woman soon after, so I don't really feel sorry for them.

Yeah, people usually do settle for someone of the same attractiveness. I am not thankful for being able to get laid whenever cause it usually is not that great and not worth the time and effort.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

komorikun said:


> I never said that women have it harder but I AM saying that women do NOT have it easier. Mediocre looking guys can get girlfriends. They just can't get casual sex that often. They are not stuck masturbating to computer screens. And if they did get casual sex, they'd probably ditch the woman soon after, so I don't really feel sorry for them.
> 
> Yeah, people usually do settle for someone of the same attractiveness. I am not thankful for being able to get laid whenever cause it usually is not that great and not worth the time and effort.


Imaging things from a woman's point of view, I feel like finding a worthy man, a man who's absolutely attractive and has an amazing personality, is a rarity. He's a guy who stands out amongst the masses of "mediocre" men. All the girls want him, and he _knows _this.

Here's the truth: Men are sexually attracted to a wide range of women while women are attracted to a few select men. Your quote underlines this: "I'm not really attracted to most men."

With this established we can assume that women have higher standards for a potential mate than men do. There's generally more physically attractive women than there are attractive men. Women focus intensely on their physical appearance while men sometimes remember to wear deodorant.

The point I'm making is there's an abundance of desirable women and a scarcity of desirable men. This is why most nightclubs become sausage fests. You have a room of all these admirable women and way too many "mediocre" men. These men will all get shot down, while the few worthy men in the room can have any woman they want. Knowing this, the desirable man chooses to have sex with as many women as he can, until he finds the one that connects with his personality the best and settles down with her. He'll hook up with the occasional "half-way decent looking" woman, only to satisfy his sexual cravings, but if he can have the best of both beauty and personality, he'll keep swimming through them until he finds her.

The average man on the other hand, has to settle for the below average woman or whichever average woman eventually accepts him. So when the 5 guy tells the 7 woman (you) that "she can get laid anytime she wants" he means _he_ would lay her anytime she wants. When a 7 guy tells a 3 woman "she can get laid anytime she wants" he means some 5 (not him) _should_ be available to her, because no 7+ women wants a 5 or less guy.

If the average woman wasn't so picky and dismissive to the average man, she has a greater chance of finding a meaningful relationship. The average man will stay with her, because he no longer has to settle for the below average woman. And the below average people just kind of sort out their own hierarchy.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

The vast majority of people do get married. So I'd say women are not that picky. I could date a mediocre looking guy, sure. I just probably would only want to have sex with him once a month or so.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

komorikun said:


> The vast majority of people do get married. So I'd say *women are not that picky*. I could date a mediocre looking guy, sure. I just probably would only want to have sex with him once a month or so.


http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/instant-turn-offs-200667/index3.html#post1060251096

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/instant-turn-offs-200667/index5.html#post1060255501

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/instant-turn-offs-200667/index6.html#post1060257035

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/instant-turn-offs-200667/index7.html#post1060258697

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/instant-turn-offs-200667/index8.html#post1060260624

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/instant-turn-offs-200667/index10.html#post1060270076


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

ManOfFewWords said:


> http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/instant-turn-offs-200667/index3.html#post1060251096
> 
> http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/instant-turn-offs-200667/index3.html#post1060251096
> 
> ...


Why are you posting my list 6 times? I don't think my list is unreasonable. It's relatively short.

Some women may have long lists but that doesn't mean they go by it. Most women do date, so obviously they don't follow a huge NO list if they have one.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

komorikun said:


> Why are you posting my list 6 times? I don't think my list is unreasonable. It's relatively short.


That was a linking error. Check it now.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

komorikun said:


> The vast majority of people do get married. So I'd say women are not that picky. *I could date a mediocre looking guy, sure. I just probably would only want to have sex with him once a month or so.*


Right, to satisfy your sexual cravings the same way the guys out of your league use you for satisfaction and never call you back. People want the fruit on the tree which is higher than they themselves are on the tree. If people are willing to pick the fruit at waist to knee level, they get a grateful piece of fruit. By all means, keep reaching for that higher fruit if you have the desire.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

ManOfFewWords said:


> Right, to satisfy your sexual cravings the same way the guys out of your league use you for satisfaction and never call you back. People want the fruit on the tree which is higher than they themselves are on the tree. If people are willing to pick the fruit at waist to knee level, they get a grateful piece of fruit. By all means, keep reaching for that higher fruit if you have the desire.


Yeah, this is true. People always want what they can't have. There are many men on this board who wouldn't be virgins or wouldn't be perpetually single if they were willing to date less attractive and/or overweight women.

I'm thinking of moving to Miami where a larger percentage of the guys are physically attractive to me (and there are less white women there so I might be more in demand). I also wouldn't mind dating a shy guy. They tend to be less popular with women and I like being the dominant one in the relationship so that would be perfect. I want a guy that will be super happy to have me and won't cheat. Not sure how to find one though. I did searches on dating sites using various key words (shy, introvert, etc.) but didn't find much.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

komorikun said:


> Yeah, this is true. People always want what they can't have. There are many men on this board who wouldn't be virgins or wouldn't be perpetually single if they were willing to date less attractive and/or overweight women.
> 
> I'm thinking of moving to Miami where a larger percentage of the guys are physically attractive to me (and there are less white women there so I might be more in demand). I also wouldn't mind dating a shy guy. They tend to be less popular with women and I like being the dominant one in the relationship so that would be perfect. I want a guy that will be super happy to have me and won't cheat. Not sure how to find one though. I did searches on dating sites using various key words (shy, introvert, etc.) but didn't find much.


I understand you, and I'm not settling myself. If anything, I'm reaching higher than I should while knocking down all the fruits below me. That's just my ambitious nature. How do you know guys in Miami are more attracted to you? Is it some sort of statistic on a dating website you use? If you're looking for a shy guy, maybe look for one that doesn't have lots of pictures of him doing crazy, adventurous activities with lots of people. Maybe look for guys who are into more introverted activities like reading and playing videogames.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

ManOfFewWords said:


> I understand you, and I'm not settling myself. If anything, I'm reaching higher than I should while knocking down all the fruits below me. That's just my ambitious nature. How do you know guys in Miami are more attracted to you? Is it some sort of statistic on a dating website you use? If you're looking for a shy guy, maybe look for one that doesn't have lots of pictures of him doing crazy, adventurous activities with lots of people. Maybe look for guys who are into more introverted activities like reading and playing videogames.


Yeah, I don't really care for all those stupid adventure photos. You can't clearly see their face most of the time in those types of pics. I like pics of guys sitting with their cat on their lap.

I don't know if guys will be more attracted to me or not. I'm just guessing from my experience living in South America. Of course it won't be as good as South America though. I do know that I am more attracted to the men in Miami because I changed my fake OkCupid profile to Miami for a couple months and liked what I saw.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

komorikun said:


> Yeah, I don't really care for all those stupid adventure photos. You can't clearly see their face most of the time in those types of pics. I like pics of guys sitting with their cat on their lap.
> 
> I don't know if guys will be more attracted to me or not. I'm just guessing from my experience living in South America. Of course it won't be as good as South America though. I do know that I am more attracted to the men in Miami because I changed my fake OkCupid profile to Miami for a couple months and liked what I saw.


How often do you come across photo's of guys with their cat? I don't do online dating, so I have no idea. I assume most guys are trying to look high status w/ lots of pics of them with girls and doing activities, because that's apparently what girls are attracted to. What is it about people in South America that's so different from America? What are you attracted to?


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Short version: I kinda "crossed a boundary" in flirtation yesterday and she "came out" to me yesterday.

It's over with her. **** kinda hit the fan yesterday when our meeting group hung out at an amusement fair/event yesterday. Things were going good with me and her there. We were having fun. But then when we passed the mini-donut stall, she had mentioned that she can't bear having another one after she had mini-donuts some days ago. So much sugar and fat. She feels like she's going to have diabetes just looking at all these sweets. Then when we passed that area a second time, I was like "come on you know you want one. Those mini-donuts are calling your name. "<her name>, <her name> eat me." Then this woman came up to us offering us free samples of those mini-donuts. She gave me one. I don't know what prompted my socially anxious mind to do this but I proceeded to take the mini-donut and motion to put it to her mouth so as to "feed" her the donut. I was being playful, goofy and smiling though. I wasn't trying to be romantic or anything. I did this in front of one other girl in the group (who she kinda became BFF with that day) and the organizer of the group (who is male. Him and I are tight with each other).

Then later I had a bit of a sense that she was starting to avoid me. Going so as far as to get her new BFF to cockblock me. The new BFF was suggesting that the four of us split up into pairs when going on rides. Then the girl (the one I like) later told me that she felt awkward with the whole donut situation earlier and that she said that she's sorry if she made it seem like she was interested in pursuing something but she's not interested in a relationship. Wants to be friends. The donut thing made it look like I wanted us to be a couple. I said that I was sorry. I didn't mean to make her uncomfortable. And that I'm not some creep or anything. She says she knows that. Her BFF though continued to deliberately try to split the four of us and I took that as a spit in the face. And I was getting upset. I talked to the girl again. I said that I felt bad that I creeped her out. She said she felt bad for making this awkward. I'm not sure how we arrived at this but she said that she's not interested in relationships. I pointed out that she mentioned ex-boyfriends before. Why isn't she interested in one. She said that she did enjoy those relationships. But that she's going through some changes. That's when it finally clued into my head: she is actually quite an adrogynous woman (she's got the short, dyed black "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo"-esque hair. She looks kinda boy-ish in a way but still pretty. She doesn't dress very feminine. When we hung out one on one, she was wearing business casual esque clothing ala Ellen DeGeneres. I also noticed yesterday that she had a bit of a mustache going and she didn't shave it. I didn't seem to mind. I'm not that nitpicky I guess. I actually somehow gave thought to her sexual orientation earlier in the day but then I quickly thought "oh she's had ex-boyfriends, she's not a lesbian.")... oh **** she might be a lesbian! She told me that I was a cool, great guy, etc.

I was still dressed with the whole thing, especially when that BFF kept being a ***** to me, and I talked with her again. I asked her to clarify the whole "going through some changes" bit. She told me that she's bisexual, possibly lesbian. She's confused about her sexuality and trying to figure things out. I had wondered if she was just telling me this for me to get off her case but it did seem realistically possible that she was of that sexual orientation when the signs were pointing to that direction. Her BFF still kept being a ***** to me, trying to split me off. I gave her a "WTF?!" expression on my face. And she's like "what's wrong? You look sad" (****). So we split off. Then before we left, the girl once again apologized for making things awkward and what not. She saw that I was dejected from this whole thing. She gave me a hug when she left. And tried to catch up to her BFF.

Later on when I communicated with her via text message, she admitted that she had used the BFF to try to avoid me. And that she felt like **** about doing that. She feels like a bad person, etc. Said that I'm a good, genuine guy. She told me that it was the donut feeding thing that made her want to avoid me. That freaked her out. That she really is bi, possibly lesbian, but she told me that so I wouldn't feel bad about her rejecting me. She had wanted to come out to me. But didn't plan on telling me like that. I said that I was being silly and wasn't thinking with the donut thing. But I did point out that I didn't appreciate how the BFF was being nasty to me and I figured that she put her up to it. But I said that ultimately it's water under the bridge. We talked it out and we're cool now. The girl was telling me that I was making this easy for her, that she doesn't deserve that, etc. I said that it's alright.

Honestly though after the smoke settled and I stopped blaming myself for what happened (typical SA move), I'm not sure if I want to even be friends with her. On the one hand, I do need quality female friends (AlltoAll touched on this). And I wouldn't mind hanging out with her (I'm just not going to go out of my way like I have with her up until now). BUT I feel insulted that she was avoiding me and treating me like some ****ing creeper because of the donut feeding situation when she's known me for a bit over a month and had trusted me to drive her home twice like that and built rapport with me over that month. I'm a nice guy, I don't deserve that ****. The way she treated me. Avoiding me like a leper and having her *****y BFF do the dirty work for her. I told her that it's water under the bridge. But it's really not. I feel really sore about what she did. While a part of me thinks it would be a good idea to be her friend, I have my pride. And right now I'm feeling too proud to forgive her. I don't know if she deserves my forgiveness. Or if forgiving her is just another sign of me lacking self-respect. I'm not some ****ing creeper. And she made me feel that way. I know that she realizes that and she apologized. But the fact that she even thought of me in that way for even just an hour or two or whatever really upsets me. She doesn't seem like the nice, sweetheart girl I idealized in my head. She was being a ***** and was cowardly (she admitted it was cowardly) hiding behind her BFF.



diamondheart89 said:


> Hmmm a guy who frequents hookers and thinks women owe him something for no more than him being a "nice guy" (according to said hookers). What's not to love?:sus


Seriously wtf? I'm a bad person because I've done that before? Get off your high horse. You don't know me. I got warned before for making an indirect personal attack on calichick and then I get this **** from a woman like this and it's perfectly fine? Please. I don't appreciate your judgmental attitude. I am a nice guy. The reason why you see a disproportionate amount of the demons on here is because this is a freakin support forum. A safe place for people to discuss what is on their mind and make sense of things and communicate their anger/frustration, etc. And quite frankly, I'm getting a very negative impression of you when you judge me for having visited escorts before. Don't push your morality onto other people. I haven't done anything wrong. If a guy wants to have sex with an attractive woman but he doesn't want to waste so much of his time hitting up bars and nightclubs trying to get laid with similarly attractive women, what's wrong with that? I haven't done anything wrong.

Honestly the escort thing is actually positive for me because then it makes me less desperate to seek out casual sex and it centers my focus more onto more important things (long-term relationships). I like the fact that I wanted to get to know this girl more as a person and that I was actually thinking that having sex too soon, going in for a kiss too soon, etc. would ruin the moment. Mentally, I was reverting back to a time where I thought more romantically and idealistically focused and I liked that (I really am a romantic, sappy dude who actually liked The Notebook and 500 Days of Summer but all you want to see is the pervert who sees escorts and seeks casual sex. You do not know me). Instead of investing so much time seeking casual sex, I can just call up an escort, pay her, get laid and then invest more of my leisure time on my social life and finding a girlfriend.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

phoenixwright said:


> I got warned before for making an indirect personal attack on calichick and then I get this **** from a woman like this and it's perfectly fine? Please.


What did you say about me? :afr



> I don't appreciate your judgmental attitude. I am a nice guy. The reason why you see a disproportionate amount of the demons on here is because this is a freakin support forum. A safe place for people to discuss what is on their mind and make sense of things and communicate their anger/frustration, etc.


Right, you can't expect people to be rosey with controversial matters, I mean I've talked about some pretty low down dirty stuff, you don't see me getting affected by judgment. If you're going to do something, i.e. f*** a married man or frequent dirty hookers, have PRIDE in it! looool


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Wow, I thought I was the only guy who went on a date with a chick who later decided she was a lesbian. I guess I turn chicks gay!


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

srschirm said:


> Wow, I thought I was the only guy who went on a date with a chick who later decided she was a lesbian. I guess I turn chicks gay!


Well I think it's clear she didn't turn lesbian overnight.

I can't help feeling down right now about how she reacted to what I did. She said that me offering that mini-doughnut to her mouth "freaked me out" [her words]. I'm not comfortable with the idea that I freaked her out. I'm not a creep (though she did say that she does not think I'm a creep and feels really bad that she made me feel like one.) I know that she apologized to me. But it still hurts me knowing that I freaked her out. After building rapport with her for a month+ and her trusting me to drive her home twice, why would I freak her out? It hurts.

I did invite her to my birthday party. But almost immediately after I did, I regretted it. But I'm torn. I don't have much in the way of female companionship in my life (AlltoAll feels it would benefit me. I do too). But I feel hurt that I even freaked her out in the first place. I'm not a freak. I'm a good guy.

She was very apologetic with me so I feel bad about closing that door. But why did I freak her out in the first place? Why did I get that reaction out of her?


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## Canucklehead (Aug 28, 2012)

srschirm said:


> Wow, I thought I was the only guy who went on a date with a chick who later decided she was a lesbian. I guess I turn chicks gay!


The one and only girl I have ever been in a long term relationship with ended up being gay.

You are not the only one.

It definitely makes you question if there is something wrong with you that would make a woman decide to never be with a man again though.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

phoenixwright said:


> Well I think it's clear she didn't turn lesbian overnight.
> 
> I can't help feeling down right now about how she reacted to what I did. She said that me offering that doughnut to her mouth "freaked me out" [her words]. I'm not comfortable with the idea that I freaked her out. I'm not a creep (though she did say that she does not think I'm a creep and feels really bad that she made me feel like one.) I know that she apologized to me. But it still hurts me knowing that I freaked her out. After building rapport with her for a month+ and her trusting me to drive her home twice, why would I freak her out? It hurts.
> 
> ...


It's like this, if she wanted you, it wouldn't freak her out. And that is on her, not you.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Canucklehead said:


> The one and only girl I have ever been in a long term relationship with ended up being gay.
> 
> You are not the only one.
> 
> It definitely makes you question if there is something wrong with you that would make a woman decide to never be with a man again though.


Lol thanks bro. Yeah the girl I went on a date with seemed a little masculine, so it wasn't totally shocking but still was if that makes sense.

I'm sorry about your situation. That sounds kinda traumatic. It definitely wasn't you.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

srschirm said:


> It's like this, if she wanted you, it wouldn't freak her out. And that is on her, not you.


If dudes are not her thing, I still don't think what I did was "freak out" worthy. Particularly after I built up rapport with her for a month+ and she trusted me to drive her home twice and what not.

She said that the mini-doughnut thing made it feel like I wanted us to be a couple or that we were acting like a couple (she said one of those two things). Maybe by "freak out", maybe she meant "wtf, we're not a couple, you're acting like we're bf/gf in front of another person!" instead of "ugh, creeper, get away from me." She did say that she does not think I'm a creep and is sorry she made me feel that way. I don't know.

If Rymo is bothering to read this, I'm sure he would pat me on the back for spotaneously feeding her the mini-doughnut like that. I couldn't believe that I did that. I'm usually way too shy to be that assertive with a girl. But I liked her so much that it just playfully happened.

One thing I remembered is that in our text conversation she said that she was being manipulative and that she "used us both" (me and the other girl). Does that mean she was using me while knowing full well that I liked her for that month+? And then once I made a very public statement (feeding her the mini-doughnut in front of another group member. And honestly it was just playful. I didn't even have a romantic intent behind it to be honest. It was spontaneous. But it can be interpretted that way), it's no longer fun and games?

It's worth mentioning that this girl does have masculine features too like in your case. She has an adrogynous look. Doesn't wear makeup. Short hair. Dyed black. Multiple piercings in her ear. Never wears dresses. Wore business casual to our outing. She is cute as hell for a lesbian (hopefully one day she'll be like "I miss cock" and just jump my bones. But that day will probably never come). But I've got mixed emotions about how I'd feel about her as a friend. She seems sincere in her apology. But yeah, it's the fact that she had the reaction she did in the first place that bothers me.


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## beothuck1 (Nov 16, 2010)

I also like to take things slowly in a relationship. I like to get the sense that the person likes me for more than just my looks. If I get the sense that a guy wants to date me based on looks because he asks me for my number too soon without barely talking to me, than I would never like them or take them seriously as a potential boyfriend. 

Taking things slowly definitely has its advantages because you get to know the person better and build that oh-so-important foundational friendship that you mentioned and that is the bones of a long-term relationship. It depends on what you're looking for, but if the girl is taking it slow, it is more likely she is looking for a long-term relationship rather than just a fling. If that's what you're looking for too, than consider yourself lucky that's she's not just throwing herself at you. 

It sounds like you both are hitting it off and there is no reason to rush things. You should take your time getting to know eachother better before you take it further, like to the committed relationship level. So try to have patience with her and put in effort getting to know her, she is probably just a good catch and they don't come easy.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I suspected from her reaction to me that she might have been a victim of sexual assault in the past. I noticed today she is a member of a meetup group that deals with sexuality issues, including recovering from sexual abuse trauma (no mention of lgbt issues in the group description). I'm seriously wondering if she was raped by a past bf or another man and this has made her uncomfortable with men violating her personal space. Or might have turned her off men in general.

Im almost positive she's a rape victim. Ive got a gut feeling about this. I seem to somehow develop attraction to women with emotional baggage and what not. Or maybe it's just a coincidence. But i seem to find these girls or they seem to find me. Plus the rape thing would explain a lot. Like I could have sworn her and I had chemistry. I'm a pessimist so I don't say that loosely. And a mutual acquaintance sensed it. If she's a lesbian, she's a lesbian though. Im not pushing it. I get the sense shed still like guys if she didn't have a traumatic experience in the past though.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Woah so she said she used you and her friend? When was this text conversation? You've said a lot about this situation so forgive me if you've mentioned this before.

But that's not a good sign...I mean she's basically known you have liked her for a month+. She should have nicely let you know that it couldn't be more than a friendship, but she seemed content to perpetuate your feelings.

She does sound pretty butch. Maybe it's worth talking to her/keeping on the backburner in case she comes around? Not as a life partner or anything, but as a hookup.

I'm sure she didn't mean you were "creepy," like you said, you just did something that was _construed_ as romantic in front of others.

It's a pretty strong statement to say you think she was raped. But if she's a part of that MeetUp group, you may be right.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

beothuck1 said:


> I also like to take things slowly in a relationship. I like to get the sense that the person likes me for more than just my looks. If I get the sense that a guy wants to date me based on looks because he asks me for my number too soon without barely talking to me, than I would never like them or take them seriously as a potential boyfriend.
> 
> Taking things slowly definitely has its advantages because you get to know the person better and build that oh-so-important foundational friendship that you mentioned and that is the bones of a long-term relationship. It depends on what you're looking for, but if the girl is taking it slow, it is more likely she is looking for a long-term relationship rather than just a fling. If that's what you're looking for too, than consider yourself lucky that's she's not just throwing herself at you.
> 
> It sounds like you both are hitting it off and there is no reason to rush things. You should take your time getting to know eachother better before you take it further, like to the committed relationship level. So try to have patience with her and put in effort getting to know her, she is probably just a good catch and they don't come easy.


I'm not good at taking things slowly. And I personally would love to be liked for my looks.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I had texted her that night on the Saturday (where we hung out at the amusement park) like less than an hour before she left (I had a lot on my mind. F "playing it cool." I was a mess emotionally and had stuff I want to get off my chest). And the "I used you both" was part of her reply to me. And she was very apologetic with me, self-depreciating and everything.

She wouldn't shamelessly use me. Like when I put down the $20 for pool when we hung out, she immediately offered to give me a $10. But you can't tell me she didn't know I liked her that whole time. It was obvious to EVERYONE who observed us for a little while. I think she liked the attention and that's what she meant by using me. And she was totally sending me mixed signals.


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## awkwardsilent (Jun 14, 2012)

So she wants to be friends , it seems like from what you say anyhow. If you are cool with being a good friend. 

I'm sure her BFF was feeling a little wierd about it to. I tend to feel wierd when I get placed in the middle of my friends and the boys that adore them a little too much for comfort. 

Sounds like you are doing better now though?


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

I have a hard time "playing it cool" as well, so don't feel badly.

It kinda sounds like she was shamelessly using you. She probably likes the attention, and when things "got real," she backed off it. Lame.


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