# Do you believe in fate?



## Glacial

Is fate a concept of theists? For me, fate implies that certain events are predestined; therefore, I would think the idea of fate would be specific to those who believe in a higher power or the supernatural being the determining force.


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## persona non grata

Certain events (if not all) are predestined. That's a consequence of living in a universe with physical laws governing all energy and matter, and doesn't require the belief in any gods.

My only objection to the word 'fate' (and 'predestination' for that matter) is that it carries supernatural implications for some people.


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## Glacial

persona non grata said:


> Certain events (if not all) are predestined. That's a consequence of living in a universe with physical laws governing all energy and matter, and doesn't require the belief in any gods.
> 
> My only objection to the word 'fate' (and 'predestination' for that matter) is that it carries supernatural implications for some people.


I wasn't referring to the aspects of fate that are governed by the laws of physics/the physical world, such as gravity; more so, ones "life" destiny.


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## leave me alone

No. It is something that can never be proven.


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## Zeeshan

Saving Face said:


> I wasn't referring to the aspects of fate that are governed by the laws of physics/the physical world, such as gravity; more so, ones "life" destiny.


ahh but it is one and the same you see, that is the real amazement of life.

Regardless of which fate you follow, or whether you follow one, the universe is predetermined. Our experience is subjective, but the universe is objective, and anything that happens, regardless of how much will you suppose is involved, is like clockwork.

Its no difference then watching water go down into the sink. If the water was alive, it may subjectively experience the choice of going down the sink, but to an objective observer, it is doing exactly what its suppose to

That is the real amazement of life you see. The subjective experience of will, in a predetermined objective universe


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## persona non grata

^ That, basically.


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## luceo

I don't believe in fate for similar reasons why I don't believe in religion. The fact that there is some sort of mystical will is just too ridiculously far fetched for me to truly believe. We're just a complex mess of cells that have developed cognitive thought. That's all.


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## Illmatic123

I was going to come in here and say that the supernatural concept of fate is laughable.

But then I saw the posts by persona non grata and Zeeshan and my mind was blown. I've never thought of it like that before, but you're absolutely right.


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## Haunty

For individual lives, I don't think anything is predestined. I just think everything has a probability of happening, and your decisions/actions can change some of those probabilities.


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## olschool

theres no fate but what we make!!!!


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## danberado

No fate but what our cause-and-effect machine-like brains make.


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## Candlelight

I agree with zeeshan and persona non grata. I think my body is just as subject to having to the follow the laws of physics as everything else in the world. The neurons inside my brain are all just physical objects that are following the laws of physics and chemistry. I don't believe in a spiritual soul that changes anything that occurs within my body. Thus, every movement my body was governed as much by the laws of the physical universe just as much as the apple falling from the tree. In short, I don't believe in free will. Therefore, everything that you'd consider my life's destiny- who I chose to marry, what job I ended up at, the city where I live, etc.- WERE predetermined by physical laws.


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## jonny neurotic

If you toss a coin 1000 times it will land heads up aproximately 50% of the time. In this regard, yes, I do believe in fate. Some people will just have rotten luck their whole life. Some people will have everything handed to them on a plate. Everything will average out in the end. 

I do not, however, believe that the universe is "clock-work". Probabilty precludes this. I think that einstein was misguided when he said that "God does not play dice with the universe"...


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## imt

Haunty said:


> For individual lives, I don't think anything is predestined. I just think everything has a probability of happening, and your decisions/actions can change some of those probabilities.


I concur. The future is *always* open.


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## Paranoid of Spies

For the guy posting the physics with Michio is pretty much what I believe in. The Marco world that we know all too well in my opinion has the illusion of Determinism but underneath it is random in the sense that it's not Determinist.


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## roses6

Yes, I do think life events are predestined. I also agree with what Zeeshan said.


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## Milco

imt said:


> I concur. The future is *always* open.


The question is whether the universe is deterministic or indeterministic and probabilistic.
But regardless of which of these it is, we do not have free will, so I'll have to strongly disagree with Michio Kaku on this.
Whether or not the universe is deterministic underneath the layer of seeming probability is unknown and is not really asked, because, due to the uncertainty principle, it is deemed outside the realm of physics.
Mathematics and physics are not about describing the world as it "actually" is, but about describing it to the best of our ability and understanding.

But really..
Whether we have 1 determined future or a spectrum of possible futures, there is no 'freedom' to change or influence the outcomes.
So his example of the mass murderer does get silly and is seemingly a moral/political statement rather than a physical one.
And by the same token as the example with the mirror, the signals in our brains also take time to go around, so we'd never be the person we think we are, and it would not be us feeling the things we think we feel.


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## hello

If you think of things purely scientifically, Fate must exist. From the big bang - all forces were set and all interactions inevitably had to follow in the way they did.. and continue to do, in to the future. Whether it is possible to see or get a sense of this fate is another matter 

But.. logic and science can't asnwer the question

Science being a belief system based on empiricism and rationalism.. not able to move very far in to the unknown


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## persona non grata

I don't get why so many people seem to think that the uncertainty principle argues for free will. There's two possibilities:

1) Electrons move in deterministic ways that we do not yet understand

or 

2) Some things are "probabilistic". First off, probability is in every other context is just used to describe possibilities made unknown due to incomplete information. But even if some things are truly random, that doesn't mean (objective) free will is suddenly valid. It just means that prediction of human behavior (or prediction of anything else) will never be made with a 100% certainty.


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## kev

I believe that the future predicts the present. So in order to change the present, we must predict the future and change that future. In that sense, we can change the present.


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## lazy

it's simply a synonym for words that describe inevitability, theist or not, the idea will exist in anyone's brain, albeit in different manifestations/expressions


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## bsd3355

as far as fate as in the life i'm living, no. fate in the aspect of the universe, yes.


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## JGreenwood

If fate exists then all of our "accomplishments" are not our own, and all of our "failures" are a cruel joke played on us by a higher power. This "thing" we call "life" becomes empty and meaningless.

You are responsible for your own destiny, and you only have yourself to blame.


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## mcmuffinme

I don't actively believe in fate, but I don't think it's impossible it exists.


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## letisa

ever since i've read Watchmen (i seriously recommend it, the comic book and the movie) and read the story of Dr. Manhattan, i've been very in doubt about this fate thing - and i'm an atheist.

if our perception of time becomes different, like Dr. Manhattan's, fate (not the cheesy kind of fate) can exist and deja vus make perfect sense. our view of time is linear, as if all we've done can't come back and the future is unforseeable, but for Manhattan time is simultaneous - this is really hard to explain if you don't read the comic book telling his story. you have to see the world the way he does and feel that different perception of time.

all our actions could be predicted. it's like we have an illusion of free choice: we can choose, but what we choose is predetermined. when you have deja vus it could be because as time is simultaneous, you feel that the situation already happened or will happen in the future.

some of his quotes so you can get an idea:
_Everything is preordained. Even my responses.
We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings.
There is no future. There is no past. Do you see? Time is simultaneous, an intricately structured jewel that humans insist on viewing one edge at a time, when the whole design is visible in every facet.
They claim their labours are to build a heaven, yet their heaven is populated with horrors. Perhaps the world is not made. Perhaps nothing is made. A clock without a craftsman. It's too late. Always has been, always will be&#8230;..too late._


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## Propaganda

Fate depends on how it is defined. (IMO).

For example a bridge is fated to fall to Earth. It will happen. (silly loop holes aside, like aliens taking it back to their home planet to place in their museums) But that is a example of the laws of physics.

A person who is, say, sleeps around has a greater chance of contracting STDs... so in a sense they are fated for STDs. But it is not 100%, it's just a odds and numbers game.

Smart people are not fated to the solve complex questions of the universe, they are just more likely to do so.

Nut shell. No, there is no such thing as true fate that is beyond the chaos of the universe and it's 'laws' of physics.


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## factmonger

Nope.

No fate. No predestination. Things happen as they happen.


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## andy1984

i believe that only one thing will happen in the future, there are no alternatives, but there is no way to know what that will be. all we have is the present.

on the level of myth, metaphor, and religion, i do believe in fate and that this moment is perfectly as it should be.


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## StayingMotivated

sometimes


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## Sameer

There is nothing called as Fate... It's just some people use to say things like that..



factmonger said:


> Nope.
> 
> No fate. No predestination. Things happen as they happen.


Well said...


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## Blawnka

Saving Face said:


> I *Do you believe in fate?*


No. Nuff said.


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## hoddesdon

Zeeshan said:


> ... the universe is predetermined. Our experience is subjective, but the universe is objective ... Its no difference then watching water go down into the sink. *If the water was alive*, it may subjectively experience the choice of going down the sink, but to an objective observer, it is doing exactly what its suppose to


But the water is not alive.


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## Revan

I do believe in fate but lately I'm trying to take the view that I should just take control of my own destiny which is an empowering way of looking at things.


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## Unkn0wn Pleasures

I think it's just a summation of the possibilities that did happen. Theists may believe them to be a means to an end (God carrying out his Plans in mysterious ways.)

But if you don't beleive in God, why would you believe in some being whose will is what we call fate. (Which is pretty damn bizzare.)


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## JGreenwood

If fate exists then any and all accomplishments you achieve become meaningless. If you were predestined to do something and you do it, then it is not because you worked hard or did your best, it's because it was supposed to happen.

If fate doesn't exist...then all of the bad things that happen in your life are random, and all of your self doubt is accurate.

What a world we live in....


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## Retronia

I did believedin fate. I thought that my rough past would bring some flowers in the future, but as I am older I am kind of thinking differently now.
I am not so sure about it anymore...


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## Porterdog

luceo said:


> I don't believe in fate for similar reasons why I don't believe in religion. The fact that there is some sort of mystical will is just too ridiculously far fetched for me to truly believe. We're just a complex mess of cells that have developed cognitive thought. That's all.


How is the idea that we're a complex mess of cells that developed thought out of no-where less far-fetched than fate or the idea of a higher being?


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## fredbloggs02

imt said:


> I concur. The future is *always* open.


That's interesting. We could never know where the electron is as we currently measure it; not to say that it's untraceable motion weren't predetermined? Or, does he mean to say that we are inadequate when we attempt to measure the pattern? If someone traced a single electron, if it's untraceable motion were always unknowable but moved to a certain pattern between two points, does that mean we'd incorrectly assume it adopted a certain path.. Equall,y it may have done. It could have darted into space then returned, is that the point? And so, although we appear in a mirror to adopt a certain frame, within that frame there is potentially infinity condensed there? We can't know, not to say it weren't predetermined, even if there were no way of tracing each part. Free will untill proven otherwise it sounds like.


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## sarafinanickelbocker

no


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## peril

Yes...kinda. I think everything that happens to us is a direct result of our actions/decisions but sometimes, there are things that had we done differently will still eventually lead to that one thing. Although the process/journey to it would be a little different.

Just like in the movie _sliding doors,_ they showed both sides of what could have happened if she had reach the subway or not.

In the end, she still met the right guy for him--now that is fate!


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## luceo

Porterdog said:


> How is the idea that we're a complex mess of cells that developed thought out of no-where less far-fetched than fate or the idea of a higher being?


Not interested in getting into a well worn-out debate right now, especially on the support sub-forum, but cognitive thought wasn't developed out of nowhere. There is plenty of evidence of this. Accepting a conclusion drawn from evidence is not far fetched.


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## offbyone

Fate is just more magical thinking. Can there be a high probability something will happen? Sure.


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## danberado

fredbloggs02 said:


> That's interesting. We could never know where the electron is as we currently measure it; not to say that it's untraceable motion weren't predetermined? Or, does he mean to say that we are inadequate when we attempt to measure the pattern? If someone traced a single electron, if it's untraceable motion were always unknowable but moved to a certain pattern between two points, does that mean we'd incorrectly assume it adopted a certain path.. Equall,y it may have done. It could have darted into space then returned, is that the point? And so, although we appear in a mirror to adopt a certain frame, within that frame there is potentially infinity condensed there? We can't know, not to say it weren't predetermined, even if there were no way of tracing each part. Free will untill proven otherwise it sounds like.


All the video says to me is that things are predetermined because of cause and effect, but unpredictable because of immeasurable variables.


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## Porterdog

luceo said:


> Not interested in getting into a well worn-out debate right now, especially on the support sub-forum, but cognitive thought wasn't developed out of nowhere. There is plenty of evidence of this. Accepting a conclusion drawn from evidence is not far fetched.


Yeah, it wasn't developed out of nowhere. No-one knows anything about where it came from, and neither do you. You dont have any evidence, and neither do people who believe in fate. All we have are theories.


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## littlerivers

I think there is, in a way, but it's psychological and is really just to do with what we notice around us, based on things we have primed ourselves to notice via our thoughts.


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## Meta14

I think our perception of fate is like our perception of time. Time doesn't actually move forward, and events aren't predetermined, even if it may seem that way. Its psychological.


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## HarryStanluv25

I believe in fate. I believe things happen for a reason. Things are meant to be the way they are. I think fate and faith are completely unrelated to religion. You can have both and not believe in god. Faith is knowing something good can happen but you don't have to have faith in a _god_. And fate is knowing something was meant to happen. So ya, I have both.


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## 654321

As an agnostic, I do not believe in any mainstream religion. All I know, for sure, is that we were created by a higher power or force (whose qualities we lack, unlike the new age philosophy). I really don't know about anything else, so I don't know if fate actually exists


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## fredbloggs02

Zeeshan said:


> ahh but it is one and the same you see, that is the real amazement of life.
> 
> Regardless of which fate you follow, or whether you follow one, the universe is predetermined. Our experience is subjective, but the universe is objective, and anything that happens, regardless of how much will you suppose is involved, is like clockwork.
> 
> Its no difference then watching water go down into the sink. If the water was alive, it may subjectively experience the choice of going down the sink, but to an objective observer, it is doing exactly what its suppose to
> 
> That is the real amazement of life you see. The subjective experience of will, in a predetermined objective universe


No, please explain this to me, I don't understand why you believe this. You suppose that all causes are discernible the world over or all things relate to eachother by a series of interrelated causes? No, I don't believe that. That's determinism. Societies love you to believe yourself free and at once constricted by the bonds of their methods for discerning truth in my view. I don't believe we only will as we do but not will as we will. I don't believe men incapable of violating natural laws. The universe "is like clockwork"...Who apprehends the causal pattern if not a subjective mind? I'd ask whoever asserted that, Locke, Voltaire, Schopenhauer and whoever else to prove the lack of a distinction between a mind that apprehends the causal relationship and the truth of the causal relationship.


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## Jef

I'm totally confused when it comes to this subject


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## ausnick

Well, if there is 'fate' then what are the laws and principles that govern it? 

If you can provide a clear and concise answer to that fundamental question (not from a philosophical perspective) then I'd love to hear it.

Imo, believers in 'fate' are likely to be believers in all kinds of unscientific nonsense.


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## danberado

ausnick said:


> Well, if there is 'fate' then what are the laws and principles that govern it?
> 
> If you can provide a clear and concise answer to that fundamental question (not from a philosophical perspective) then I'd love to hear it.
> 
> Imo, believers in 'fate' are likely to be believers in all kinds of unscientific nonsense.


There is nothing unscientific about cause and effect. Fate would just be long term cause and effect.


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## guppy88

Saving Face said:


> Is fate a concept of theists? For me, fate implies that certain events are predestined; therefore, I would think the idea of fate would be specific to those who believe in a higher power or the supernatural being the determining force.


there is a such thing as determinism saying you have no free will at. what will happen will happen.


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## ausnick

Well, yeah if fate is cause and effect then it makes sense.

But usually people associate 'fate' with some sort of universal higher order where meaningless events are perceived to be meaningful.


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## lword

My current belief is that choice is an illusion and that we can't perceive our lives in "real time" so we experience events after they've already happened. So... that could be considered fate in a way. This belief was reinforced after I watched a recent PBS program called "The Fabric of the Cosmos" fascinating! I am no scientist and it was a difficult concept for me to grasp but it was very supportive of my beliefs.


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## ugh1979

HarryStanluv25 said:


> I believe things happen for a reason.


Yeah but it's a reason in the past, not the present.



> Things are meant to be the way they are.


Knowing what I do about quantum physics I could never accept that. No events are preset, it's all random, and with every possible variation of an outcome happening.

There isn't one future. Slices of time and space branch into infinite other slices of time and space.


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## PickleNose

I don't know if it's so much fate that I believe as it is just that once something is heading in a certain direction, it tends to stay that way. I think, for instance, that my own life is headed inexorably for disaster. Not necessarily that it was predestined. Just that once I made certain choices or once certain events took place, I was more and more likely to be where I am now.

More than that? I have no solid evidence to support any notion of "fate". Nor do I have any real reason to care.


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## arnie

offbyone said:


> Fate is just more magical thinking. Can there be a high probability something will happen? Sure.


What if December 21, 2012 actually happens: Will you believe in fate then?


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## Meta14

arnie said:


> What if December 21, 2012 actually happens: Will you believe in fate then?


Can I facepalm at this?


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## millenniumman75

^Easy there.


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## arnie

millenniumman75 said:


> ^Easy there.


Don't worry. I can handle some facepalm. Especially if it's in the form of a picard motivational


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## candiedsky

Yeah, to an extent. But I don't believe that every single thing in life is significant. Some things just happen.


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## cafune

Well, I can't see how a person who doesn't believe in god can believe in fate... if things are predetermined, then shouldn't there be someone who causes it? I can't find a case where they don't need god or some supernatural entity.

Anyways, no, I don't believe in fate... the idea that the decisions I will make in the future are already predetermined is entirely unappealing. And I don't see how it would be possible with everything in the universe being chaotic and random. I think it's just a way of giving people a "purpose/destiny." If that's the case, then I think they need to look for that on their own and not peg it on something such as predeterminism. It doesn't have to be related to god or something "larger" than life; it could be about the imprint they want to make on the world, however small or large.


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## SeekerFinder

You must forgive me if this concept has already been addressed as i have not yet read all posts here in this thread, but i seem to notice that both sides of the argument here are skipping over a line that no one can really define. this is the concept that freedom will trump because of decisions.

the concept of fate involves predetermination, which as a measure of physics is unarguable, all objects no matter how small have defined end point despite our lack of ability to run the calculus necessary to figure it out to the end of the universe.

but fate also implies a sense of destination, rather than an endpoint. implying that it operates with a sense of intelligence and will.

our fate in the sense of physics is undeniable, but completely unknown, and that being the unknown gives us freedom. freedom is by definition the ability to choose and act based on our desires. we have that freedom, but we may only be able to act on one end.

we are forever only able to do what our brains command of us,but it wont ever feel like that we will always have that sense that we can act any way we want. and since we are nothing but a sack of nerves and all we really know are the senses that we feel, freedom is defiantly real, freedom is tangible, and freedom is accessible. making our destination, even though it is unalterable, completely unknown because of our being unable to differentiate between the true final outcome and millions of billions of other possible outcomes.

we may one day be able to calculate the true outcome one day. We can get a printout saying that "X is when we will die, Y is how and Z is our number of descendants" possibly. We will be able to read a full printout of every decision we will ever make. Then, then we will do everything in our power to change our outcomes to change what that printout says.

Even when we are able to calculate, our urge to shape our own future will trump it, thus freedom still exists.


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## Ungrateful

No, I feel as though I can reasonably do what ever I want as long as I put the time and effort into it.


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## Milco

SeekerFinder said:


> our fate in the sense of physics is undeniable, but completely unknown, and that being the unknown gives us freedom. freedom is by definition the ability to choose and act based on our desires. we have that freedom, but we may only be able to act on one end.


Not knowing the predetermined fate does not give you freedom.
If freedom was simply being 'allowed' to follow the physical laws then everything in the universe would be free - there's nothing to ever stop that.
Freedom in the context of fate is that our choices and actions aren't simply the product of physical or divine forces.
We may feel free because we are unaware of the forces that control us, but we won't ever actually be free, and that's an important difference to make because of the implications "freedom" has.



> we may one day be able to calculate the true outcome one day. We can get a printout saying that "X is when we will die, Y is how and Z is our number of descendants" possibly. We will be able to read a full printout of every decision we will ever make. Then, then we will do everything in our power to change our outcomes to change what that printout says.
> 
> Even when we are able to calculate, our urge to shape our own future will trump it, thus freedom still exists.


No, if I made a full prediction for every action you would ever do in your life, you might well feel like you were living in a prison cell and always confined by the prediction, but you would not be able to change anything.
Any prediction you could change away from would be lacking and erroneous.


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## Random Dude

Sorry, I didn't read all the replies. Barely got through page 1 actually .

I do not believe in destiny or fate. While the argument of determinism is an interesting one and sounds logical, if you look deeper into physics, especially quantum mechanics, little about this universe is logical or common sense, the universe is random by it's nature. All things are not set or certain, but rather probabilistic. I saw there was a video of professor Michio, I assume he pretty much summed up what quantum mechanics is all about. If you trust science, fate can not exist in this universe.


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## coldsorehighlighter

As someone who believes in God, I hope I'm allowed to post here. :duck

If by fate, you mean that every decision I make in my life has been predetermined, no, I don't believe that. 
I do believe my general path in this life was pre-determined, by me, before I was born into my body, but that's a general path, not one set in stone and not one I can remember making. 
It's up to me to use free will to make the best decisions I can make to experience what I intended to experience during my time on earth.


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## HarryStanluv25

I do, I feel some things are meant to happen the way they do. Not everything is fate but some things, yes. Some people are meant to be together forever, some people are meant to go through certain struggles in life because it will lead them to a better life after. Hopefully I'm one of them.


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## Milco

Random Dude said:


> Sorry, I didn't read all the replies. Barely got through page 1 actually .
> 
> I do not believe in destiny or fate. While the argument of determinism is an interesting one and sounds logical, if you look deeper into physics, especially quantum mechanics, little about this universe is logical or common sense, the universe is random by it's nature. All things are not set or certain, but rather probabilistic. I saw there was a video of professor Michio, I assume he pretty much summed up what quantum mechanics is all about. If you trust science, fate can not exist in this universe.


That may be so depending on how you define "fate", but we still wouldn't have the freedom in shaping our own future.
I view fate (in any meaningful sense) not as something that was defined ahead of time or that some events hold special significance, but simply as an outcome that follows automatically.
Whether things are deterministic or indeterministic doesn't change that, only "freedom" would.
And as to whether things are deterministic or indeterministic, I believe the answer is that we don't know. What we see now as indeterministic/probabilistic behaviour may be the direct results of deterministic behaviour at a lower level we don't yet and might not ever know.


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## Dark Alchemist

No.


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## DAM71392

no but i believe in soulmates that someday you'll find that person that u can feel close to becuz u meant for each other out of this body in the past


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## LoneWolf111

no, i dont beleive in fate. i think fate is like what people call destiny, and it just makes you lazy. instead of going out and making a life for themselves, they are passive and let it "come to them" or "it is gods' will" kind of sounds like rubbish doesnt it?


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## Joe

I think your life is made of the actions and risks you take, not fate.


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## LuxAeterna

Eh. Depends on the context. Not in the "gods watching over me and guiding my life" sense. Not in the sense of predestination. Definitely not in the context of classical theism. However, I'm not a metaphysical naturalist/materialist (atheism deals with deity concepts, not necessarily metaphysics entirely) so there are concepts I'm open to or lean agnostic.


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## minimized

Fate is either an excuse or something to hang your hat on when you think life's given you a reason to think you're better than everyone else.


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## Princess143

Yes, I completely believe in fate...


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## SeekerFinder

Milco said:


> No, if I made a full prediction for every action you would ever do in your life, you might well feel like you were living in a prison cell and always confined by the prediction, but you would not be able to change anything.
> Any prediction you could change away from would be lacking and erroneous.


I am afraid i dont follow you here.
if i told you that you were going to die, april 5th in the year 2015 in a plane crash,
would you buy a plane ticket for that day? No.
not unless it was a choice.

freedom is that sense of choice. underline is.
granted that we are forver bound by physical law, we still have that sense.

freedom exists within a finite sense of time, and within fine sets of boundries, all of these sets of times are infinite in count, but our knowledge of the finite time period of one choice is not infinite.

that is the key there. we will always feel free, freedom is all based on consious choice. regaurdless on how that choice was made.


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## Milco

SeekerFinder said:


> I am afraid i dont follow you here.
> if i told you that you were going to die, april 5th in the year 2015 in a plane crash,
> would you buy a plane ticket for that day? No.
> not unless it was a choice.
> 
> freedom is that sense of choice. underline is.
> granted that we are forver bound by physical law, we still have that sense.
> 
> freedom exists within a finite sense of time, and within fine sets of boundries, all of these sets of times are infinite in count, but our knowledge of the finite time period of one choice is not infinite.
> 
> that is the key there. we will always feel free, freedom is all based on consious choice. regaurdless on how that choice was made.


I'm afraid that's not quite true.
First off, your choices aren't conscious. Your consciousness is merely a reflection and the choices are already made by your underlying biology.

Secondly, a prediction that didn't take into account you telling me the prediction would simply not be accurate. Naturally, making perfect predictions would require nature to be deterministic, so let's assume that it is for the sake of the argument.
You are assuming you can freely make the choice of whether or not to tell me and thus assume there to be two possible time lines that can unfold.
In reality, there is only the one. Whether or not you tell me has already been determined.
I don't know if you're a Batman fan, but in that universe the character Two-face uses a coin toss to decide whether to kill or spare people.
To him, and to the person whose fate is being decided, it may seem as if there are two possible outcomes - two possible time lines - and only when looking at the coin can we find out which has been selected, but how the coin lands is not actually random. It is simply chaotic enough that it appears random.

If the universe is indeterministic, it actually doesn't change anything about this.
The underlying physics may be probabilistic, but that behaviour does not appear in the macroscopic world and it does not give us the ability to decide independently of physics.


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## WhatWentWrong

"no.. because I don't like the idea that i'm not in control of my life" 
-- Neo --


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## SeekerFinder

No,
i am obviously not articulating my point well enough.

Freedom is that inate feeling that we get before we choose. that freedom is real, we can acknoledge it, we can utilize it, we experience it. Freedom is a mechanism that extends the determinism of physical laws into larger decisions such as what to eat for breakfast.

Freedom is a spychological phenomenon. Determinism is a physical one.

regaurdless of the fact that physics says that you will use your freedom to decide on cornflakes, you still have to utilize that brain finction that makes that decision.

physics is an underlying principle, freedom is overlaying principle. this is why we experience this sense, regaurdless of its illusory nature.

Freedom because of this is not incompatible with a deterministic reality.
Let me ask this question, do you know of anyone who has had the sensation of being chemicaly attracted to their steak and eggs? no, they make that decision. 

Yuo can think of freedom as a psuedo indeterminism.


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## Milco

Then you agree that freedom is just an illusion.
That is a very important point. I agree completely that I feel free and that if I were to lose that feeling it'd be terrible. It would be a very claustrophobic feeling of restraint.
But if you have some problem you're dealing with and I then tell you to "Pull yourself together!", whether you will be able to is not something you are in direct control of.
That and similar kinds of 'help' hinge on your freedom and thus responsibility as an individual.
If you agree that you aren't actually physically free to decide these things on your own, responsibility to change things for the better becomes the responsibility of all parties that wish to see it change (although it can be delegated in practice).

And then, to address the topic of this thread, fate is very real.


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## SeekerFinder

Milco said:


> Then you agree that freedom is just an illusion.
> That is a very important point. I agree completely that I feel free and that if I were to lose that feeling it'd be terrible. It would be a very claustrophobic feeling of restraint.
> But if you have some problem you're dealing with and I then tell you to "Pull yourself together!", whether you will be able to is not something you are in direct control of.
> That and similar kinds of 'help' hinge on your freedom and thus responsibility as an individual.
> If you agree that you aren't actually physically free to decide these things on your own, responsibility to change things for the better becomes the responsibility of all parties that wish to see it change (although it can be delegated in practice).
> 
> And then, to address the topic of this thread, fate is very real.


This is like saying that the subway cashier doesnt really exist because he is only a bunch of molecules designed to build my sandwhich for lunch.

obviously this makes no sense.

Freedom is the subway guy
Physical determinism is my lunch.
Choice was my sandwhich.
(quite possibly the most strange thing i have said all day! LOL)

Freedom as a mechanism provides a list of alternatives for us.
Choice is the final decided among the options.
Determinism stacks the odds in such a way that makes it impossible to decide anything but the path of least resistance based on out mental makeup.

Let me put it this way.
if you were to resurect a person that you know from the dead, with no memories, how much of their personality do you think would be retaind?
not much in my opinion, because he has no memories to base his decisions on so he will be explorative out of need.

with us however we base our thoughts on the memories we do have, and are thus limited to those paramaters.

that is the nature of our mental determinism, but it is still based on the functions of freedom and choice.

If freedom did not exist, then we would not have any form of civilization like we have now because it too is based on memory and choice.

Let me try a different analogy.
if you rent a movie from blockbuster do you have it?
Yes, its in your pocket.
and
No, its not really yours.

You can think of it as a kind of rental of options, its not really in your ownership(Determinism makes your brain go round)
but you have it in your pocket(You still need to pull the trigger with a choice to make something happen)


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## SeekerFinder

also:
The idea of fate,
the original question
is the same kind of concept.
we have a pre destined future, this is only physically logical no matter what you say we will be somewhere provided the laws of physics dont breakdown very soon.
However,
we still have that freedom machiene giving us options, for us to be forced to choose by our forced(by determinism) consent.

freedom is real, just not in a grand scale.


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## Marleywhite

fate is cause and effect?


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