# Liberal Arts People



## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

One thing I cannot stand is when somebody asks me my major, and after hearing that it's classics, they either A. laugh, B. make some comment about how they're taking "real classes" (by which they mean math/science), or C. ask me immediately what I'm gonna do with a major in _that_. It's infuriating.

Am I the only one who gets bombarded with this disparaging attitude towards the liberal arts? Sure, I can't sit there and solve math formulas, but I'd really like to see them try to translate a Cicero speech or some Thucydides and then they could see for themselves how ****ing "easy" the liberal arts are.

/endrant.


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## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

I get the same sorts of responses when I tell people I'm an English major. It makes me crazy.

I overheard a woman on the train telling her daughter that arts degrees shouldn't exist because "No arts student actually does any work."

It was really hard not to leap out of my seat and strangle her.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

What I don't get is how nobody seems to realize that any subject is very difficult at upper levels. When those sorts of people think about what the English majors do, they're thinking of their high school English classes or the ones they're required to do in college (100/200 level). When they think of classics (something that most people are really unfamiliar with), they think of a bunch of scrawny pale kids with glasses bull****ting about philosophy for a few hours.


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## Narcissus (Aug 28, 2007)

This is my fault. I did a general arts degree and have always found it difficult to intellectually commit to anything. I have a mediocre degree in nothing in particular. I'm one of a covert society that now works (out of ignorance, of course) to destroy the credibility of the liberal arts.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

_sometimes _older generations still have the attitude that we should go down the route of working towards a career/job that is most likely to ultimately ensure that we will earn a good wage and enough to live comfortably without worry about money.
i am not yet in university or college but when i express that i am interested in the arts or literature (among others) i get occasionally get the reaction along the lines of "why would you want to do that? you're not going to make any money by just knowing how to draw".

most people i know in my age group do mostly take courses along those lines and its sometimes joked among them that they will probably end up living in a shack or working at starbucks (though exaggerations of course), but a lot of us just have the attitude that studying a field and having that knowledge, and hopefully getting a job in that - or even working with that on the side while having another part-time job - is better than just doing something you hate just for the money. it just seems so much more important to immerse yourself as much as you can in something you are passionate about and that truly gives you some sort of happiness (even if it is quite minor) rather than the alternative.

of course, people just have different values. i wouldn't look down on anyone for choose to study those fields (and i also wouldn't look down on those who just want a job with good pay, i just can't completley relate).
in fact i would find some of the really intense art programs to be very difficult. i would love to take major in photography but it would entail having to at least take other courses on painting, drawing (etc) and i am crap at those. i'm also bad at constantly creating and having new ideas so i really admire those who can do it successfully.

i also always find it reassuring when i do meet others who are of older generations and tell me how great it is that i'm not going down the route of only choosing something that will get you a good job as they very much regret not choosing to do what they really loved when they were my age.


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## delirium (Jun 24, 2009)

bezoomny said:


> What I don't get is how nobody seems to realize that any subject is very difficult at upper levels. When those sorts of people think about what the English majors do, they're thinking of their high school English classes or the ones they're required to do in college (100/200 level). When they think of classics (something that most people are really unfamiliar with), they think of a bunch of scrawny pale kids with glasses bull****ting about philosophy for a few hours.


What do Classics scholars do anyway? I'm studying philosophy and becoming increasingly disillusioned with the whole enterprise. In academic philosophy we seem to engage in endless debate about abstract concepts that have no relevance to daily life. But we do so following the rules of good reasoning, inductive or deductive. I took an Ancient Philosophy course and one of my profs was a Classics scholar. I know he engages in translation, and I recognize that this is very difficult. But aside from that... what else? Why should anyone study Classics (aside from reading Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, etc. in their original languages, which is cool... but... not necessary for living a good life).

Or is that why? By engaging directly with the Ancients, do we some how gain a better understanding for ourselves about what the good life entails? Or, is the study of the Ancients part of contemplation, and as Aristotle argues, part of the good life? Is Aristotle correct that contemplation is part of the good life?

Most people seem to sleepwalk through life never really questioning the values and beliefs under which they operate. But, they usually report being happy.


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## Madison_Rose (Feb 27, 2009)

May I recommend "Where Have All the Intellectuals Gone?" by Frank Furedi?


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## mountain5 (May 22, 2008)

Well, people say stupid things about computer science majors, too.

I am just now starting to learn a little bit about philosophy. I've been listening to the "Giants of Philosophy" audio series on my iPod over the past couple months. I'm not sure if it's dumbed down much, but I find it to be very accessible and thought provoking. Then again, I'm in the 0.001% of people who would listen to that for fun. I enjoyed reading about Greek and Roman history as a youth, but I never understood it in any kind of integrated sense.

What little philosophy I was exposed to in academia seemed excessively dry. It felt like more of a system of categorizing than anything else. It's too bad we can't just appreciate thinkers in context, for who they are.

Spending a weekend around journalism majors also made me realize they're a lot more fun and personable than average computer science majors. I'm still glad I have this degree and the skills that come with it, but I'm realizing I need to be more open to new experiences. I do feel like having my "boring" job does help me to appreciate the classics for what it is, i.e. more than just a reading assignment.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

delirium said:


> What do Classics scholars do anyway? I'm studying philosophy and becoming increasingly disillusioned with the whole enterprise. In academic philosophy we seem to engage in endless debate about abstract concepts that have no relevance to daily life. But we do so following the rules of good reasoning, inductive or deductive. I took an Ancient Philosophy course and one of my profs was a Classics scholar. I know he engages in translation, and I recognize that this is very difficult. But aside from that... what else? Why should anyone study Classics (aside from reading Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, etc. in their original languages, which is cool... but... not necessary for living a good life).
> 
> Or is that why? By engaging directly with the Ancients, do we some how gain a better understanding for ourselves about what the good life entails? Or, is the study of the Ancients part of contemplation, and as Aristotle argues, part of the good life? Is Aristotle correct that contemplation is part of the good life?
> 
> Most people seem to sleepwalk through life never really questioning the values and beliefs under which they operate. But, they usually report being happy.


What do we do?
We translate works of literature from the original Greek and Latin, interpret the author's use of grammar, the historical influences upon that author, and his greater influence. There's also history courses, mythology courses, art history courses, and "classical civ" which could be anything from women's role in antiquity to the use of sports to battle tactics to daily rituals. It's really four or five majors jammed into one.

Why?
The Ancients are incredibly important because they influenced _everything_. Literature, culture, government, etc. We cannot allow the knowledge of our past to be forgotten. An understanding of classics is a great jumping-off point for general academia. Sigmund Freud, Friedrich Nietzsche, Jane Addams, and W.E.B. DuBois all studied classics and went on to careers that would seem to have nothing to do with classics, but actually really did draw on what they'd learnt.

But when it comes down to it, I study classics because I genuinely enjoy it.


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## Tristram (Feb 9, 2008)

I see this attitude all the time, and while I'm an English translation major myself, I can't help thinking there's some truth behind it. Sciences simply aren't equal. In linguistics there are people, researchers, literally studying the layout and WEIGHT of junk mail. No kidding. In liberal arts you have way too many people studying things that are simply not worth gaining any knowledge on.

As for difficulty...I don't know the first thing about quantum physics, and I know I wouldn't understand it even if I studied it. I admire people who can tackle that stuff. Yet, a completely average mind like me can be one of the best translators in the entire faculty, and all it took was to learn a language and read a book or two about how to not translate like a retard.



> But when it comes down to it, I study classics because I genuinely enjoy it.


That's what it should be all about anyway.


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## SilentLoner (Jan 30, 2006)

As an anthropology major I've gotten a lot of stupid comments too. And a lot of people don't even know what it is. I recently started going for a double degree in biological anthropology and criminal justice (going possibly for forensic anthropology at graduate level) and now I'm getting comments like "Now you can make some money at least." I'd love to answer sometime "that's not why I chose that focus, ***hole."

I like this description of antropology: "The most scientific of the humanities, and the most human of the sciences."


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## Madison_Rose (Feb 27, 2009)

bezoomny said:


> Why?
> The Ancients are incredibly important because they influenced _everything_. Literature, culture, government, etc. We cannot allow the knowledge of our past to be forgotten. An understanding of classics is a great jumping-off point for general academia. Sigmund Freud, Friedrich Nietzsche, Jane Addams, and W.E.B. DuBois all studied classics and went on to careers that would seem to have nothing to do with classics, but actually really did draw on what they'd learnt. it.


This reminds me how much I wish I'd had the chance to study Greek and Latin at school. Due to the prevailing instrumentalist attitude (ie German is useful, Latin is not), I only got to study modern languages. Boo!


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## Madison_Rose (Feb 27, 2009)

Marooned said:


> Among those who are in school to actually learn, I don't know that this battle between the liberal arts and sciences even exists.


Ooh, it does in my alma mater (Glasgow, UK). When I was there, the english department was shoved out of the best rooms to make way for Business Studies. Eng Lit PhD students didn't even get their own offices - the only PhD students on campus who didn't.


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## quietgal (Oct 18, 2007)

Madison_Rose said:


> May I recommend "Where Have All the Intellectuals Gone?" by Frank Furedi?


I haven't read that one - it looks interesting. Another really good book is _Anti-intellectualism in American Life_ by Richard Hofstadter, which runs along those same lines, though obviously it addresses the American version of the problem. It's a bit older (published in 1963) but still incredibly relevant and explores more of the historical evolution of the cult of practicality that's so pervasive in American culture. It's the same kind of attitude today - liberal arts people and educated people in general caricatured as elitist and frivolous and unsuited for the "real world" at best, dangerously subversive at worst, and all the rest of it.

I remember there was a lot of this sniping back and forth between the sciences and the humanities in college. A lot of it was just stuff like, who spent more time in class, who spent more time doing assignments - I guess it's natural to engage in some petty rivalry and competition against the "opposing" group to some extent. I agree it's all very silly. Many of America's founding fathers, for instance, were scientists and tradesmen as well as great lovers of literature, history and philosophy.


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## kicia (Aug 26, 2009)

College is useless in my opinion. I am taking it mostly because my parents would kick me out(probablly) if I didnt go, and i cant afford to live on my own. However, my aspirations are to be a pro poker player, so I focus more of my time playing online poker then studying lol, my major is psychology which also helps.


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## STKinTHEmud (Jun 21, 2009)

I get to tell people that I'm pursuing a PhD English Lit, so I usually get responses something like C or D: "Oh, that's so interesting! Have you read [insert contemporary popular best-selling novel by an author more concerned with sales than aesthetics]?" The answer to D is always "No," either because I haven't read it, or because I don't want to talk about it.


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## TheWhiteGorilla (Jun 21, 2009)

Every though I've gone the liberal arts route, I find allot about the Four year system to be a fraud. I even think bachelor degrees in general seemed to be misplaced from an older era when the bachelor degree was THE gold standard of higher education. My grandfather for instance went to MIT and only got a BS, and went on with his career. How many MIT grads nowadays would settle for only a bachelor's degree? Not very many. But than again thats MIT, but 60 years ago a bachelor's degree alone actually had value.

Maybe its wishful thinking, but I always wanted there to be some alternative to a bachelor's degree that would just cut the crap and focus on your major's requirements only. Obviously, taking "geology 101" and "Foreign language" classes are completly irrelevent for the steps liberal arts students want to do after they graduate. And vice versa for science and business majors. The undergraduate programs should be 2-3 years rather than 4-5 years, which is typical these days.

Thats my disgruntled rant of that day.


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## TheWhiteGorilla (Jun 21, 2009)

STKinTHEmud said:


> I get to tell people that I'm pursuing a PhD English Lit, so I usually get responses something like C or D: "Oh, that's so interesting! Have you read [insert contemporary popular best-selling novel by an author more concerned with sales than aesthetics]?" The answer to D is always "No," either because I haven't read it, or because I don't want to talk about it.


Majoring in poli sci, I get response like that all the time. Like, I bring up what major is to someone my age, they either politely nod (usually idicating that the don't follow politics), or if they do follow politics, they go completely overboard all tell me how they want to shoot Dick Cheney in the face or something.

Anyway, its always anger that people use to start political chit-chat. If their a right winger, they might tell me how their afraid Obama's going to shut down talk radio or some thing. When its a lefty, they usually love to talk about how they hate Palin or perhaps even still express their hatred for W.

That sums up our political discourse in America. People are either apathetic or raging partisans. Because most people don't ever _discuss
_ politics, it's always complaining. But I honestly have more respect for the apathetic, so long as they don't vote.


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## kanarazu (Jul 4, 2009)

All the time, especially from my dad, he wants me to take like math and become an accountant for something which makes me just want to die... I'm thinking a degree in history or something... As for what are you going to do with that major? I think you can do anything you want, I would rather do something I love then something everyone thinks will get me a job. Well anyway, I think classics sounds wayyy more fun than like majoring in math.


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## retropat (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm in my last year of undergrad. My degree will be in Theatre Administration. I'm sure you can guess the kinds of responses I get with that one. I'm going on to grad school next year to get a master's in English so I'm quite obviously a glutton for punishment.


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## lb756 (May 31, 2008)

As someone who is doing a physics degree, I love the classics, you're looking at someone who has read Herodotus, Plato, Suetonius, Arrian and a few others for pleasure, but I simply go through them like you would a novel, and I can't really appreciate all the subtleties and whatnot that you can if you are learning Greek and Latin, it's a skillset I simply haven't got, and is why I'm a physicist (albeit a reluctant one) instead.

I'm particularly fascinated by Alexander the Great, that despite his military genius, he was a megalomaniac and made people do many things purely due to his charisma.


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## mixolydian (May 23, 2009)

I'm doing a Arts/Commerce double degree and I'm majoring in English and History on the Arts side. In my experience the most intelligent, insightful and interesting people are the ones studying arts. So many business students have zero capability to think outside a textbook and seem far less equipped for life outside uni. I have enjoyed my arts degree immensely, commerce not so much. Unfortunately, it is difficult to find a job with an arts degree. Still I've benefited much more from doing it.


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## cakesniffer (Nov 11, 2003)

I have a degree in English, and was always asked if I was going to be a teacher. I still don't get the connection between being an English major and being a teacher. You can major in anything and become a teacher. As for me, I'd rather hang myself than teach some evil horde of children.

But, my degree has finally come in handy. It all started when I got an internship at a publishing house. In my previous job as well as in my current one, people come to me with their awful, disgusting documents, and I make them look and sound pretty. I was even praised a bit at our latest staff meeting for my awesome editing skills.


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## locsaf (Sep 3, 2009)

,


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

I'm majoring in philosophy, I've almost got a BA. I really respect the people from this thread that read this stuff on their own because I couldn't make myself do it without school - I really wish I could.

People always ask about what career it could lead to - and I know they are thinking it's a dead end. They fail to value anything unless it is in terms of $.

I am a little bit neurotic and worry a lot about ethics and doing the right thing. I think I have really been able to internalise some of the stuff I have read and it makes me more confident to be a bit different.

I know I will end up with a pretty crap job for a while once I'm finished studying though...


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## kkluv20 (Nov 17, 2008)

It seems like there are different views of what college is for. For a lot of people it is about the money...getting a degree to get a job that pays well. For me, I enjoy taking all different kinds of courses and Learning. I also enjoy the experiences that college has to offer. I have no idea how my courses will apply to an actual career, but I feel like every course I have taken will be and has been valuable to me personally.


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## roverred (Dec 23, 2007)

kicia said:


> College is useless in my opinion. I am taking it mostly because my parents would kick me out(probablly) if I didnt go, and i cant afford to live on my own. However, my aspirations are to be a pro poker player, so I focus more of my time playing online poker then studying lol, my major is psychology which also helps.


the hell? Are you me? i've considered psychology but engineering now. How's it going for you? I find it hard to study poker when there's no structure and college work is there.


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## Belshazzar (Apr 12, 2010)

Thread necromancy!

I did psych and history at a tech school, so there was quite a bit of major elitism. Basically, I just never mentioned my majors so people thought I was an engineer because all my friends were. Whenever I got the "not a real major" spiel, however, it was especially fun because:
-Our psych department was especially interested in neuroscience and artificial intelligence. I had to take some serious bio courses and I took more programming courses than most students besides those in computer science and computer engineering.
-One of my interests was evolutionary psych, which requires at least some knowledge of bio and a good knowledge of evolutionary theory.
-I had to have a good grounding in stats and experimental design. Good psychologists have to pay real close attention to scientific control because of how unpredictable people can be.
-I had to take 3d calc.
-People, especially liberal arts majors, usually don't end up working in the field they got their undergrad degree in anyway.
-I graduated last semester. My degree says Bachelor of Science.

Some people are actually interested in knowledge. Some of which doesn't involve engineering, business, or accounting.

Suck it, *****es.


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## Daktoria (Sep 21, 2010)

bezoomny said:


> One thing I cannot stand is when somebody asks me my major, and after hearing that it's classics, they either A. laugh, B. make some comment about how they're taking "real classes" (by which they mean math/science), or C. ask me immediately what I'm gonna do with a major in _that_. It's infuriating.
> 
> Am I the only one who gets bombarded with this disparaging attitude towards the liberal arts? Sure, I can't sit there and solve math formulas, but I'd really like to see them try to translate a Cicero speech or some Thucydides and then they could see for themselves how ****ing "easy" the liberal arts are.
> 
> /endrant.


What money can you make from that? =-P

Interestingly, economics qualifies as liberal arts (even though it's a B.S., not a B.A.), so I get the same shpeal. It's too generic to seem practical to employers.


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## Hey Yo (Sep 21, 2010)

I'm sure those comments are annoying. However, there's a reason so many people say those things. I myself got my B.A. in a fairly useless subject (geography). Looking back, I sacrificed my future for my present. Studying geography was loads of fun - but when college ended, so did the fun. I would advise you to not ignore these comments out of hand. There's no shortage of Starbucks baristas with humanities degrees.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

I didn't do classics, but even the Latin I took in high school would have people stumped and asking, "What are you going to use that for?" 

The 2 people I know who took classics in Oxford earn a bomb now, but anyone who goes there is pretty much set for life. One was my ex's sister and I'd sometimes poke my head into her study when she was away because the shelves were full of classics. I had a thing for classics for years. I don't like the elitism combined with ignorance regarding degree subjects and my least favourite physics professor used to openly bash certain fields.


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## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

I like this thread. I posted in it already, but I'm going to post in it again, because my silly liberal arts degree is working out quite nicely for me these days.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

If only those same people realized just how much philosophy has shaped their lives.

edit: not just their lives, but their very way of thinking.


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## Belshazzar (Apr 12, 2010)

leonardess said:


> If only those same people realized just how much philosophy has shaped their lives.
> 
> edit: not just their lives, but their very way of thinking.


Oh yeah, I forgot to rant about this too. 

Philosophy bashers in the sciences are particularly hilarious, especially considering how philosophical ideas have affected the sciences over the last century. Popper's idea of falsifiability, for example, is now a gold standard for scientific hypotheses. Not to mention that epistemology underlies every scientific discipline and has created its own sub-disciplines, such as the philosophy of science, experimental design, historiography, etc., that researchers in relevant fields are expected to know. Philosophy often poses the question that science will answer. (Also, scientists were once called "natural philosophers.")

And Western culture is based on Enlightenment philosophy. People aren't born believing in individual liberties or the value of rationality, y'know. Nor did these values come ex nihilo into society.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

^ The physics professor I mentioned earlier (doctor of philosophy ) also bashed that.


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## Belshazzar (Apr 12, 2010)

odd_one_out said:


> ^ The physics professor I mentioned earlier (doctor of philosophy ) also bashed that.


Probably because of the Sokal_affair?

But that doesn't affect the usefulness of good philosophy, which even Sokal would admit.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm a bio major, so I guess I don't run into that, but I never took liberal arts people as idiots. They seem to be the best well read, making them able to hold intellectual conversations better, and their diction is usually better to. Hell, it wasn't until a bit ago that I realized that I held them to be too highly lol. 

Philosophy, lit, and other liberal arts require a different intelligence than the technical intelligence required of the sciences, but one intelligence isn't superior to another.


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## alte (Sep 4, 2010)

lonelyjew said:


> Philosophy, lit, and other liberal arts require a different intelligence than the technical intelligence required of the sciences, but one intelligence isn't superior to another.


Agree. I am a science major and I would be terrible if I attempted certain liberal arts degrees. I admire people who are good at subjects like language and philosophy.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

Belshazzar said:


> Probably because of the Sokal_affair?


I doubt it. It was more more likely another manifestation of his mental disturbances.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

lb756 said:


> As someone who is doing a physics degree, I love the classics, you're looking at someone who has read Herodotus, Plato, Suetonius, Arrian and a few others for pleasure, but I simply go through them like you would a novel, and I can't really appreciate all the subtleties and whatnot that you can if you are learning Greek and Latin, it's a skillset I simply haven't got, and is why I'm a physicist (albeit a reluctant one) instead.
> 
> I'm particularly fascinated by Alexander the Great, that despite his military genius, he was a megalomaniac and made people do many things purely due to his charisma.


Have you ever read the Alexander romances? It's long fictional stories about him having various adventures, like an Achilles or a King Arthur.


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## Banzai (Jun 4, 2009)

There should be a group for this 

I'm asian so people have this stereotype that I _was born to _do a science/maths. This fact becomes about 10 times worse because my school is probably about 80% [south] asian and as hypocritical as it is, the asians here really do do maths and sciences. Sometimes, people I don't know very well even ask me what did I get for [science/maths] exam. ..which is occasionally met with a sarcastic reply :sus


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## Eugenie (Feb 17, 2009)

When I hear someone say they are majoring in classics I'm pretty impressed. I'm a huge fan of "useless" degrees- learning for learning's sake is important. I think it would be pretty darn cool to be able to read latin or ancient greek. I can't imagine anyone would think it's easy- a little eccentric maybe, but that's a good thing.


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## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

SilentLoner said:


> As an anthropology major I've gotten a lot of stupid comments too. And a lot of people don't even know what it is. I recently started going for a double degree in biological anthropology and criminal justice (going possibly for forensic anthropology at graduate level) and now I'm getting comments like "Now you can make some money at least." I'd love to answer sometime "that's not why I chose that focus, ***hole."
> 
> I like this description of antropology: "The most scientific of the humanities, and the most human of the sciences."


Jeezus I wish I had done forensic anthropology when I had the chance. Dumbass me I wrote my senior thesis on museum theory. WTFFFRFFFFRRGHGHGH. Now I'm struggling to teach myself a little web programing. ARGHGH.

And, oh yes lots of "I respect anthropologists the least out of anyone" and "what in the world can you do with THAT" to "that was stupid" to "isn't that a racist colonial science?" to "what IS that, anyway?"


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## Banzai (Jun 4, 2009)

Meh, I'm a Geography/social science person...I've lost count of how many times people have asked, "Why do you want to do that for?..." or "Why do you like it?"...:sus


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## april showers (Jun 27, 2009)

I admire people who can do math/science, but that doesn't mean liberal arts/social sciences have no place or significance. 

Personally, I think if more people took sociology, anthropology, Poli Sci, history, and such courses, it would be a huge benefit to our society as a whole.


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## Ambivert (Jan 16, 2010)

I've always been one of those "math/science" people who have taken courses related to that stream of thinking. But to me society would be depressing and boring if everyone on earth took those. There needs to be contrast and different modes of thinking. It's good we have intellectuals and philosophers because doing things rote and mechanically only.... while good... needs some balance against it.


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