# Nardil



## zendog78

*Nardil - The Gold Standard for treatment of Social Anxiety*

*Nardil - The Gold Standard for treatment of Social Anxiety
*
I have been getting many question's about Nardil so I thought I would write a guide to getting and using this wonder drug

*Is Nardil for me? 
*If you have have trialed various other treatments such as SSRI's, SNRI's TCA, etc. And you have tried CBT with no or minimal result.
If your Social anxiety is long standing and causing you significant distress
If your mature, responsible and prepared to make lifestyle changes such as limiting or ceasing alcohol and recreational drug use.
Then Nardil could well be the drug of choice for you

*How do I get Nardil?
*Doctors these days are very litigation conscious and risk adverse. Nardil is a medication with the potential for serious and deadly reactions and as such doctors are inclined to trial you on every drug under the sun before even considering a irreversible MAOI such as Nardil if at all. Many people have had great difficulty convincing their Doctor to give them Nardil for exactly these reasons so I will give you an outline of how to obtain a prescription

(1)

*Approach your Doctor and lay it all on the table. 
*
Tell them of all the treatments that you have tried and have failed. Do your research and speak about Nardil with authority, speak about your knowledge of medication and food interactions and give them some examples. Stay calm, If your acting highly distressed they are unlikely to prescribe it. What is likely will happen is that your doctor will want to trial you on yet another SSRI. You need to be prepared to compromise and negotiate. Ask your doctor if you trial it and it fails again would they be prepared to prescribe it. They are likely to give you a "we'll see" response. This is not good enough, Doctors will keep you going round and round for years if you will let them. Below I have listed the various things you need to discuss with your doctor. Such as:

How your life is currently severely restricted because of your SA

Your previous drug trials and failures

The amount of time it takes to start a new drug, wait for it to take effectiveness and then to taper off and wait for it to wash out again. This can be at least 4 months, most likely 6 months.

If your Doctor gives you an agreement that you can trial Nardil after trying one more drug, it may be reasonable to go with that. If however your doctor hums and ha's or refuses to give you a commitment, I suggest you find a new Doctor because that simply is not good enough. Doctors have an ethical and professional obligation to provide you with adequate treatment and if they are not providing that then you need to look elsewhere.

(2)
*Scam it*

Approach a Doctor that you have never seen before, tell them that you are from interstate or far out of the area. You need to tell them that you are visiting the area and forgot your medication and that you need a script. Say your on 3 tablets per day which is the starting dose. Most doctors won't ask too many questions and will give you a script for a limited supply. A good plan is to go to a late night medical centre so that they are unable to make a call to the fictitious Doctor who put you on the medication. Once you obtain the script and if you really understand all the indications and contraindications you may start taking them. I then advise you to find a new Doctor within 2 weeks and be up front about what you did. Tell them about your distress and desperation and that you are not in the habit of deceiving doctors. Tell them about how much better you are feeling (and you most likely will be) and ask if they can they manage your care or refer you to someone who can. Considering that you are already on the medication and are telling the Doctor that it is working well, they are likely to continue treating you with it. You need medical supervision. Do not go it alone.

*I have got my Nardil, what now?
*
Ok, you have your Nardil, I am assuming that since you have gone to the effort of getting it that you have also gone to the effort of reading about the drug and food interactions, if not read it now!!
The literature states that it takes up to 4 weeks to take effect however I noticed improvement from the very first dose. For the first few weeks if your metabolism is anything like mine, you may notice a hypomanic effect. You will feel full of energy, talkative, lots of ideas and excitement. While this is somewhat pleasant after feeling like crap for so long, the best is yet to come. As time goes by the hypomania will ease and you will be left with a relaxed contented confident feeling. I had very severe long standing anxiety depression and social phobia. Within about 8 weeks of starting I had a 95% reduction in anxiety, a total absence of depression and can talk to people with ease. Sounds good huh? Read on, now I will bring you back to earth.


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## zendog78

*Side Effects:
*
After the first 6 weeks where you should be on 3 tablets a day is when you will likely start getting side effects. Here is a list of the main side effects I experienced. You may not get them or you may get all of them and more.

*Fatigue* - I battled with this for a long long time before realising that I wasn't using the medication correctly (another reason to have a doctor on bored) . I had been keeping the dose low to try to avoid the fatigue that would hit me after lunch but what I should have been doing is increasing the dose. The medical literature states that you need to start at 3 per day and increase it fairly rapidly as fast as side effects will permit to at least 60mg (4 tablets) per day and keep it there for a month. This is to totally destroy the MAO in your brain. After you have done this you slowly reduce the medication to as low as 1 tablet every other day which will keep the MAO from building up again (though I have never heard of anybody who has managed to get by on this low a dose).

*Blurred vision: *I noticed this when I was increasing the dose, it resolved after a few weeks

*Urinary retention: *If you increase the dose too fast or too high (like I did) you may start to have trouble urinating. This can become so severe that you need to be catheterised. If this is happening to you I suggest you drop back the dose a little for a few weeks and then try raising it with one tablet every other day.

*Constipation:* I have found all the antidepressants I have ever taken have given me constipation and Nardil is no exception. Drink loads of water, eat lots of fruit and veggies and talk to your doctor of pharmacist about an appropriate laxative. I find movicol to work well.
(Nardil Farts really stink too)

*Postural Hypertension:* This can be very annoying and disabling. It is a side effect that will pass and another reason why you should increase the dose fairly slowly. There is plenty of info on the net about how to treat it but I would suggest Salt tablets and increased fluid intake as a good start. Get up from lying down slowly and if you are walking around and you get a hypo episode you can go into a squatting position which will stop you from fainting.

*Sexual Dysfunction:* This is a real *****. I found for the first couple of months I had no interest in sex at all which is good in a way because I couldn't perform if I wanted to. I had trouble getting an erection at first but this passed. However anorgasmia (inability to cum) is still effecting me about a month after upping the dose from 3 to 4 tablets a day.
I don't have a partner at the moment so maybe that would help, my sex drive is still reduced from what it was (which wasn't that high anyway). 
Its a bit of a catch 22, you need Nardil to get out there to find and keep a partner, but Nardil stops you performing in the sack. What do you want more, effortless orgasms or an otherwise full life?
Yoshimbine is meant to help with desire and orgasm (however its illegal in australia) 
Good old alcohol I think good help as well. In any case, its still worth it. If your a guy keep in mind that woman fake it all the time, you might have to as well for a while. If your a chick, well at least you won't be alone.
There are other side effects people get but these are the ones I had to deal with and I may have forgotton some that have come and gone but these are the ones that I feel I can write on with some authority.

*Dietary Restrictions*

This is a partial list of what is off limits on a MAOI

Beer (including alcohol-free or reduced-alcohol beer)
Caffeine (in excessive amounts)
Cheese (except for cottage cheese and cream cheese)
Chocolate (in excessive amounts)
Dry sausage (including Genoa salami, hard salami, pepperoni, and Lebanon bologna)
Fava bean pods
Liver
Meat extract
Pickled herring
Pickled, fermented, aged, or smoked meat, fish, or dairy products
Sauerkraut
Spoiled or improperly stored meat, fish, or dairy products
Wine (including alcohol-free or reduced-alcohol wine)
Yeast extract (including large amounts of brewer's yeast)
Yogurt

However I have eaten and drunk most of these things without problem. You however may be different. If you are going to experiment with eating some of these foods I highly recommend you eat only a very very small amount and wait at least an hour to see if there is a reaction.
Salami, aged cheese, yeast extract (such as vegemite, marmite) red wine are things I habitually avoid as they are very high in tyramine.

*Problems with the "new" Nardil*

You will find a lot of information on the net about Pfiser changing the formula of Nardil a few years back and how it doesn't work properly anymore. This info is all particular to the US. Australia and the UK is still getting exactly the same Nardil we always have which seems to be much like the "new Nardil" sold in the states. In any case, my advice is to ignore it. There are plenty of people getting good results on the "new " Nardil.

*Drug interactions
*
This is yet another reason why litigation conscious and risk averse Doctors are extremely reluctant to prescribe this drug. Nardil has many and varied drug interactions that can result in almost any Symptom you can think of.

Make no mistake, Nardil is a dangerous drug to mix with other drugs legal and illegal. Drugs that you mixed with no problem in the early stages of taking Nardil may react strongly and in unexpected ways later on in treatment when MAOI A and B are more fully inhibited. There is no way I could list every drug and every interaction so I will try to give a brief overview focusing on recreational drugs as you of course have a doctor on bored for all the perscribed drugs

*Potentially Deadly Mix's*

*DXM* - Found in cough syrup. DXM is used as a recreational drug (though I found nothing pleasant about it) as well for its legitimate purpose of being an antiexpecterant. MAOI's strongly potentate DXM. I once took a tiny drop as an experiment years ago when I was on a different MAOI. The reaction was extremely strong and floored me in a very unpleasant and scary way. Deaths have resulted from this combination, do not mess with it.

*MDMA* (aka ecstasy) Again another drug that reacts violently with MAOI's . You are almost guaranteeing yourself a trip to the morgue if you mix these 2 drugs. Do not do it.

*Methamphetamine/dexamphetamine*: Another potentially deadly mix. There is some literature on the net of Doctors combining small doses of dexamphetamine with Nardil in treatment resistant depression however you can bet it was done in an impatient setting with access to all the appropriate treatments only minutes away. There are reports of people dying after mixing only 10mg of dexamphetamine with Nardil http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1845739/

*Alcohol*: Among the many things to avoid on the MAOI diet list is alcohol, particularly beers.
Personally I have mixed alcohol of various kinds with Nardil without a Hypertensive reaction.
In fact I have had very much the opposite, very strong hypotensive reactions. I would advise limiting your alcohol intake.

*Hallucinogens:* Cannabis, LSD, Magic mushrooms. There is very little information on the net regarding interactions with these drugs. Some sources say Nardil inhibits the effect of these drugs, some say it potentates their effect.
I have used all of these substances on several occasions whilst on Nardil and found the effect to be pretty much zero. Does not make it stronger or weaker. However if you are planning on trialing this combination I would advise caution and using the very lowest dose to start with.

*It comes down to this:*

Your suffering, you have tried so many medications but nothing has worked. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insanity. 
So you have ethical problems about lying? You don't feel strong enough to stand up to your Doctor? Basically it comes down to this. This is your life and it is ending one day at a time. (love fightclub) How much time do you really think you have to be arseing about? How much time do you want to be suffering alone rather than going out and living you life, finding a partner and making some money?
The longer this kind of Phobic anxiety and depressive tendency's goes on the more it becomes entrenched into your personality and the harder it is to change.
You can be a whiney little passive victim of the medical system and spend your life posting on forums like this about how **** you feel or you can take charge and work the system in ways I have outlined above. Whatever you do, I guarantee you that if your a passive and compliant patient who looks to Doctors with awe you will be on the SSRI merry go round for years to come. Its in your hands.

Good luck


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## zendog78

I have gone to great lengths in this post to give you an idea what being on Nardil entails, but maybe the best thing to do is to give you my personal testimony.

Nothing did nothing short of changing my life. My social anxiety has waxed and waned over the years but it has always been there and has always limited my life, more often than not severely.

This is a story of how I was in the past year leading up to me taking Nardil. There were times before this that I was even worse, when I lived like a hermit for years, through my best years (late teens and early 20's) I was very sick and suicidal then. I am in my early 30's now.

Before I started Nardil I hated going on public transport, I would get panic attacks, be nervous about making eye contact with people, nervous about sitting next to people. I found the whole thing extremely stressful and more than once got off early to walk because I felt so confined and anxious.
On a weekend I would get invited out with people but I nearly always turned them down because I knew I would have to drink heaps of alcohol to even come close to enjoying myself and then suffer even worse panic attacks for days to come because of the alcohol. 
I would get attacks of social anxiety to the point where I would become highly anxious around my family and good friends that I have known for years. I would become mute and couldn't speak. To the point where it was nothing short of strange. I would feel so embarrassed about this and I would get flashbacks of this embarrassment which would stop me in my tracks as I walked down the street.
Work was a nightmare, it took all my will to force myself to go in a few times per week, I would often do night shifts so I didn't have to interact with people. Night shifts would make my SA worse, it was all crap. I couldn't remember anyone's name, I constantly felt like I was doing a bad job no matter how hard I tried and as such I didn't want to try, I resented my job because it made me feel so bad. I couldn't build relationships with my work colleagues and became totally overwhelmed even with a light workload. I took heaps of sick days, I quit multible jobs. I suffered migraines, I could only breath through my mouth because my nose was always blocked. I had fibromyalgia, I was always full of aches and pains. I finished work utterly mentally and emotionally exhausted. It was hell and for no good reason. The job was not that hard, I just couldn't stop stressing out and panicing about it.
I had huge amounts of trouble sleeping, my thoughts would race, I would get stupid songs repeating over and over in my head that wouldn't go away and drove me insane. I had terrible nightmares, I slept in longer and longer every day and had huge trouble dragging myself out of bed. Even a small disturbance in my sleep would make my mental state even worse.
I was so depressed, I felt so lonely all the time, constantly dissatisfied I hated the world and was extremely anti about everything and everyone. I would always find the worst in everything. I always felt low and down, I literally dragged my feet and was so obviously depressed. I would have trouble speaking and be just sad and down. Whenever the depression lifted the anxiety would get worse and vice vesa. I went through a long periods of lying in bed, hardly eating and not even washing.
I would get disturbing and bizarre OCD symptoms that were hugely socially disabling even on top of my anxiety.
I isolated so much, spent huge amounts of time on the internet. I would constantly trawl forums looking for the magic something that would cure me. I would constantly ruminate about the meaning of life and what I should do with my life rather than living it.
I tried everything and I mean everything, ssri, tricyclics, TCA's, SNRI's, mood stabilisers, antipsychotics, stimulants, every herbal thing you can imagine as well as a huge variety of recreational drugs. I tried psychotherapy, CBT, hypnosis. Nothing worked.

Nardil Works

This huge list of things I listed above are no longer an issue. My anxiety is 95% gone, no panic attacks, no depression.
This is my third time on Nardil, the other times I tried it and stopped it because of the side effects. This time I am working through them.
Life is sweet, I love coming to work and am making great money and putting in big hours. 
No aches and pains, no migraines, I can have a few drinks without massively paying for it the next day. I have hope and plans for the future. I go on dates, I make new friends. I dont care what people think about me anymore.
I have a life
I love life.

Please do not suffer any longer, I read some of the posts on this site and my heart goes out to you, because I used to be there.
If all else fails, give Nardil a go. I know the side effects sound a little scary, but the fact is that when you feel good, you can cope with these things. I would cope with a lot more to stay on this medication.

Enough said...for now


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## zendog78

EDIT: December 2010

After one year of battling side effects I have given up on nardil. This thread is basically a record of my journey with it.

In a nutshell, it helped me at a time when I really needed it. And maybe some good has come from taking it. 
Long term solution... not for me


February 2011 Back on Nardil
The anxiety was just all consuming, I couldnt work, I couldnt do anything.
Tried metformin to control the weight gain - I would be sick with hunger all the time.
I would have to eat to get to sleep, I would wake up to use the toilet in the middle of the night (thanks to the fluid retention nardil caused) and I would again be too hungry to get back to sleep so I would eat again. Then I would wake up ravenous in the morning.

I went from 78kg - 92kg on top of that my stomach was distended like I was pregnant. 
I did this while eating healthy foods (I am a nurse and a qualified fitness instructor so I know what healthy is) I just ate so much of it.

I trained 2 hours per night 4 night per week in Krav maga - Incredibly physically demanding.
I would regularly almost pass out because of the random hypotensive episodes I had.

I would constantly pass gas

My bowels were so compacted that I could not move them in anything like a normal manner. I had to use enemas and drink bulk hot water and take laxatives for every explosive bowel movement. 

At my Doctor prescribed me dexamphetamine in the hope of combating the postural hypotension. I ended up manic for 6 months until I returned the script to my doctor and told him to take them away from me.

Don't get me wrong, Nardil is an amazing drug that did help me. It seems that every time I take it and get a more normal life for 6 months or so, I come out the other end a stronger person.

All this stuff that happened to me...it happened because I kept taking it, because it was worth it. When it gets to the point of not being worth it, stop. 
You will lose the weight as I did (10kg loss in one month!) and everything will go back to normal....whatever that is.

I have been off nardil for about 4 months (Feb 2012) . I have stopped working, a luxury I can no longer afford. So I may have to do it all again
Thanks for reading


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## crayzyMed

*YES!!!!!!!!*

I can not stop ppl encourage enough to try Nardil!! There's far too litle talk about nardil on this board and far too much talk about SSRI's that usually arent very effective.

*Try Nardil folks!*

Awesome post zendog78!

I dont have experience with MAOI's myself (yet) as i'm trying other things first, however i do know that nardil is *VERY* effective for social anxiety.


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## euphoria

I was on Nardil for a time. It was very effective with Xanax, but I was so apathetic, tired, and sexually dysfunctional that it kind of wasn't worth it. Plus it's a bit ridiculous when the wrong food can kill you. I heard our Prime Minister is on an irreversible MAOI.

And the drug interactions... Wow. Don't take ANYTHING (pharmaceuticals, supplements, herbs, recreationals, etc.; legal or otherwise) unless you know for sure how it interacts. Be vigilant at all times -- even for stuff like energy drinks (some have ingredients such as supplements/herbs). Street drugs in particular should be avoided altogether as you don't know what exact chemicals you are ingesting. Cannabis should be fine, though it may further reduce blood pressure (I've smoked plenty of weed on Nardil). Some types of alcoholic beverages can interact very badly with Nardil, and in all cases there'd probably be a boost in respiratory / circulatory / nervous system depression. Benzos or opioids with Nardil would probably carry the same risk to an even greater extent, so dose would have to be chosen very carefully if at all. Some opioids (such as pethidine) could cause a very bad interaction with Nardil. Dextromethorphan (DXM) also interacts badly (in some cough syrup). Some decongestants contain stimulants that interact badly. Ketamine and nitrous MAY be okay but there may be potential for bad respiratory / circulatory / nervous system depression or other interactions: caution is advised. Some tryptamine-related psychedelics (LSD, mushrooms, DMT, etc.) should PROBABLY be fine with Nardil but they may receive a VERY BIG boost in effects, or they may not work at all. Some tryptamines would interact very badly (e.g. AMT). Phenylethylamine-related psychedelics/stimulants (mescaline (and associated cacti), 2C-*, amphetamine, methamphetamine, MDMA ("ecstasy") etc.) have potential for very bad interactions. Cocaine also interacts badly. L-tryptophan, 5-HTP, L-tyrosine, [D]L-phenylalanine, phenibut and picamilon may interact badly.

That's by no means an exhaustive list. If you haven't tried a drug with Nardil before, my advice is to "test the water" with a very low dose, then work your way up. Then if there is an interaction, it will be of minimal magnitude. Obviously this step can be bypassed if a doctor is instructing you. Always get drugs from a source of certified purity, composition, dose, etc.. Some supplement companies I know of are independently analysed for purity. Pharmacy-obtained drugs obviously are ideal. Street drugs are a huge risk.

If you are not careful and meticulous with what you put in your body on Nardil, you will eventually come to regret it. The same applies to quite a few meds. A good approach is to take as few drugs/supplements/herbs/etc. as possible, get those you do take from legit sources (if not, then test every new "batch" carefully), and if you're taking anything with potential for bad interactions, use the low dose testing procedure for any new drugs / combinations. Remember also that metabolic interactions alter the levels and rate of clearance of anything you take, so monitor the effects closely.


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## crayzyMed

Wasnt there a study that showed that reboxetine prevented hypertensive crisis from tyramine rich food? Apart from that it may be a good addon as it would reverse the hypotension caused by too little noradrenaline.


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## euphoria

Yeah I heard about that too.


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## Fox Kid

Hm..sounds good enough for me! I'm willing to try ANYTHING right now!

Great post! 

Thank's for all that information, Zendog78!


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## Vini Vidi Vici

zendog78 said:


> This post blank for add ons
> 
> Cheers crazy med, this is all I need


Dude man, that is nice , very chill. Particularly the part about going to a new Doctor, while already on Nardil, that way the pDoc sees your still alive and its not as dangerous as it sounds. From my experiences, p-Docs can be very reluctant about starting patients on new meds, but if i was already on the med, they were more likely to give me refills. Maybe its like, they dont feel the same responsibilty if something bad happens, cuz it wasnt their idea


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## zendog78

Exactly :yes


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## jim_morrison

crayzyMed said:


> Wasnt there a study that showed that reboxetine prevented hypertensive crisis from tyramine rich food? Apart from that it may be a good addon as it would reverse the hypotension caused by too little noradrenaline.


Yeah NRI's are supposed to help prevent tyramine induced hypertensive crisis. I don't think they completly obliterate the risk though, just lessen it. I think you can find alot of that research at psychotropical.com
Personally, I also agree and wonder if NRI's might help reduce the postural hypotension, since it's supposedly induced by MAOIS decreasing noradrenaline activity via octopamine.


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## zendog78

I was on Dexamphetamine for about 2 years. They took over my life, made me paranoid, addicted, absolutly crazy in fact. I had a hell of a time coming off them. And dont kid yourself, there is really no doubt anymore that they are nerotoxic, even at theraputic levels. 
I love and hate the things, I know that if I came accross a bottle and had one I would be straight back to being dysfuntional and dependent on them, even taking a low dose of 3 or 4 tablets a day. Which is all I really ever took.
They are bad ****ing news.
And if you talk about offsetting them with something like clonazepam, you should realize that there is now plenty of evidence that they are neurotoxic as well.
Amphetamines feel great....for a while..but they screw your body up. You can feel that there is something toxic going on. Bad bad news.
If the side effects of Nardil ever became too much I may consider getting maybe 2.5mg of dexamphetamine compounded with each 15mg nardil tablet to boost it up and let me get by on a lower dose (with medical supervison of course) 
Dexies do make you feel fantastic...for a while. But every time I go back to them, the time period it takes for me to go from coping to a total **** up gets shorter


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## robotaffliction

well, it's true that nardil doesn't work for quite a few people who give it a reasonable trial (i.e., as part of an illicit-drug-free and moderately sober lifestyle).. but certainly if one tries to combine it with everything under the sun (especially given it's propensity for so many med interactions), and then reports it doesn't work and that the combination of two controlled substances works better for him, i think that might say more about the subject reporting the data but hardly anything about the possible effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the medication 



rocknroll714 said:


> Speaking from experience Adderall/Dexedrine + Klonopin/Xanax kicks Nardil's ***.
> 
> Nardil has horrific side effects. While I was on it, my sleep became extremely fragmented (I'd sleep 4-5 hours, wake up and stay up for a few more, then do the same thing all over again, 24/7), I completely lost my appetite and at one point went almost three days without eating anything and literally had to force myself to do so (I lost 11 lbs after being on Nardil for only 5 weeks), and I constantly felt spaced out and generally screwy, among other nasty adverse effects.
> 
> All of these were in my eyes tolerable for the benefits, except for one that is.. I had severe orthostatic hypotension which rendered me extremely fatigued and barely able to walk or even stand up without nearly blacking out (my BP dropped to something like 60-70 and my HR was up to 130 or so attempting to compensate -- my doc freaked out a little, said I could potentially go into circulatory shock and die, and forced me to reduce my dose to 2/3rds). This side effect made my life -- and Nardil -- completely impractical.
> 
> On top of all that, mood-wise I wasn't really improved all that much. My negative affect (anxiety, insecurity, etc) was destroyed, but in terms of positive affect, my pleasure and drive were actually lower than usual. I felt very apathetic and anhedonic, even less 'happy' (this being defined as good emotion in my book, not an absence of bad emotion..) than sober. Then again I don't really have depression in the first place.
> 
> The SA relief was great though and socializing was much easier and far more rewarding. Superior to benzodiazepines and opiates but inferior to alcohol and amphetamines, and far, far inferior to the combination of a psychostimulant and a tranquilizer (e.g., benzos or booze), as I referenced with my opening sentence. Reinforcing the stim/tranq cocktail, for me, the side effects of this combination are quite tolerable, with almost all of the actually significant/bothersome but still relatively mild ones coming from the tranq and not the stim. In contrast, Nardil is a ****ing nightmare.
> 
> So for me the 'lengendary' Nardil basically sucked (overall) and I lost all confidence in prescription antidepressants/anxiolytics after trying and essentially failing it. Personally, I think the psychostimulant/tranquilizer combination is the true 'gold standard' for treating SA.


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## Ehsan

imo nardil is one of the best meds when we compare meds *singly *coz it affects many subsystems together. 
however we can find many equivalent or even better combinations.


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## crayzyMed

Ehsan said:


> imo nardil is one of the best meds when we compare meds *singly *coz it affects many subsystems together.
> *however we can find many equivalent or even better combinations.*


Such as?


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## fredericmoreau

crayzyMed said:


> Such as?


Phenyltropanes look promising for those of us with depressive/anhedonic/social phobic affects (i.e. everyone here!). Who knows if they'll ever be available, though, and if they will even be indicated for people like us or just for stimulant addicts.


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## Saicemacro

Doesn't seem worth it. I have fairly severe SA, not as severe as Zendog, but nevertheless. 

Many psychiatric conditions are based on control, OCD etc. I have a fear of any drug permanently controlling how I think..which is in part why I have never tried, nor will try, an MAOI. Perhaps ironically, I take xanax. But I know when xanax is done and out of my system - not affecting me. And I don't take it every day.

I suppose if ones SA is really bad enough, nardil would be a godsend. I have SA pretty bad, but not that bad.

As to whoever said clonazepam is neurotoxic, I would like evidence.

Alcohol doesn't come close to the relief xanax gives me, SA wise. With alcohol, at the first feeling of not being in control, I have to stop drinking, as it causes panic.


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## crayzyMed

fredericmoreau said:


> Phenyltropanes look promising for those of us with depressive/anhedonic/social phobic affects (i.e. everyone here!). Who knows if they'll ever be available, though, and if they will even be indicated for people like us or just for stimulant addicts.


I agree those look very promosing, but they arent available right now, so at this time we would have to do with MAOI's and other meds.


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## Ehsan

crayzyMed said:


> Such as?


SAD is shown to depend on various neurotransmitters, receptors, hormones, neuropeptides, special brain regions, amino-acids, enzymes ...

nardil is not a unique med. it work on some brain neurotransmitters, ... like many other meds do.
there are more than 200 psychoactive meds. you can make some combination that work similar or even better for you.
why not?


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## crayzyMed

Ehsan said:


> SAD is shown to depend on various neurotransmitters, receptors, hormones, neuropeptides, special brain regions, amino-acids, enzymes ...
> 
> nardil is not a unique med. it work on some brain neurotransmitters, ... like many other meds do.
> there are more than 200 psychoactive meds. you can make some combination that work similar or even better for you.
> why not?


It may act on receptors we arent aware off, i disagree that for example prozac+wellbutrin+gabatril would be as effective as nardil because you cover the same neurotransmitters.


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## Ehsan

crayzyMed said:


> It may act on receptors we arent aware off, i disagree that for example prozac+wellbutrin+gabatril would be as effective as nardil because you cover the same neurotransmitters.


every drug do something that we don't know

nardil release DA. there are many meds that are more potent than nardil.
nardil increase serotonin level. there mre than 50 meds that do this with higher potency

on the other hand there are many things that nardil can't do.
for example nardil can't affect CRF, Oxytocin, NMDA receptors, cortisol, GHB receptors ...

how many papers have compared nardil with other meds? when?
almost all of papers are considering monotherapy. how many papers have evaluated combination of three or more meds in SAD?


----------



## crayzyMed

The what combo would you consider as effective as nardil? (with amphetamines, benzo's etc ruled out, as i do beleive those are more effective, but some ppl dont want addictive meds).


----------



## Ehsan

crayzyMed said:


> The what combo would you consider as effective as nardil? (with amphetamines, benzo's etc ruled out, as i do beleive those are more effective, but some ppl dont want addictive meds).


i haven't any answer yet. also nardil isn't available in my country so i can't compare my experiences with it.

nardil is likely more effective than everything i've tried to date but it's almost impossible that we can't find some combination better than it. the reasons are clear
1) nardil does not affect many neurotransmitters, receptors, hormones, neuropeptides ...
2)nardil is not selective at various subtype of one recptor(e.g. various 5-HT receptors)
...

anyway, nardil has helped many peoples with severe SAD who didn't respond to other meds and is likely the best for monotherapy in SAD.


----------



## euphoria

Nardil may be effective but the side effects make it suck. I have no doubt a much more effective combination than Nardil could be put together. Combinations are the best IMO, instead of pushing one "system" (e.g. serotonin) to the extreme and incurring side effects, you can use lower doses of each component and balance it perfectly. Assuming it's done safely. Meds like Nardil may affect multiple systems but the balance/ratio will always be rigid and not open to adjustment.


----------



## crayzyMed

I'm not really convinced that there's a combination of non addictive meds that can match nardil, ive been reading about combo's too and never found one with seems to have the same high succes rate.

Considering that Nardil completely abolishes SA in those that respond to it, id say that the neurotransmitter ratio's are 100% perfect.


----------



## zendog78

Its good in theory to grab a handfull of different meds and mix up your own cocktail, but the reality of it is that as soon as you start doing so you increase the chance of drug interactions.

Added to that, you also have concerns about tolerance, even if you find a mix of 3 meds that work, you have 3 different drugs you can develop a tolerance to and if one stops working then the whole mix is down the drain.

As for the neurotoxicity of benzos, I will admit that the issue does seem to be up in the air, but here is a thread discussing it

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=360514


----------



## crayzyMed

I personally do beleive that things like benzo's, amphetamines etc are long term solutions, but those meds are not for everyone, and not everyone wants to be on such meds, the alternative for them is Nardil.
I'm 100% sure you cant recreate nardil with mixing other non addictive meds, garbage+garbage= still garbage.


----------



## euphoria

Selegiline + clonazepam + escitalopram? None of those are seriously mentally addictive like opioids or stimulants. Nardil is just a mix of various mechanisms of action, if drugs are combined to replicate them, the same effects can be achieved.


----------



## euphoria

zendog78 said:


> Its good in theory to grab a handfull of different meds and mix up your own cocktail, but the reality of it is that as soon as you start doing so you increase the chance of drug interactions.


If meds are added individually, increased slowly starting with a low dose, and then kept at a constant dose, there shouldn't be any problematic drug interactions. Assuming you don't combine any obviously bad interaction drugs, and monitor the effects closely so you can adjust dose if necessary due to metabolic interactions. Once a constant dose is reached for all everything should become stable.



> Added to that, you also have concerns about tolerance, even if you find a mix of 3 meds that work, you have 3 different drugs you can develop a tolerance to and if one stops working then the whole mix is down the drain.


But the same would apply to tolerance forming to individual components of Nardil's mechanism of action.


----------



## zendog78

Nardil has a reputation for not causing tolerance and even when it does occur it seems like a short drug holiday will restore the effects.
There are people who have been taking it for 30 years plus and it still works unlike ssri's.
Why do you think there continues to be a market for several new antidepressants every year? Because they are they are ineffective and you develop tolerance to them.
The longest I ever had anything work was citalopram which worked great for about 5 months and then ok for about another 8 months. I also believe citalopram left me with permanent tardive dyskenesia.
I had such a hell of a time getting off it, I tried so many times and I went crazy every time I stopped, nobody told e about withdrawl...****ing doctors.
I remember when I did get off them I was walking down the street and I was thinking "man, I feel so depressed" and then I stopped and went wow, I feel depressed, I actually feel something!
Nasty nasty life numbing drugs

Nardil on the other hand, one thing I noticed is that I can not just feel emotions instead of being emotionally anesthetized, I feel more fully.
When I have felt sad, appropriately so because of a movie, sad news whatever, I feel a deeper more complete more full sadness. A healthy kind of sadness, I guess sadness minus the distress.


----------



## crayzyMed

euphoria said:


> Selegiline + clonazepam + escitalopram? None of those are seriously mentally addictive like opioids or stimulants. Nardil is just a mix of various mechanisms of action, if drugs are combined to replicate them, the same effects can be achieved.


I highly doubt it, i have a huge "hall of ****" in my basement, a room were i throw all meds that i consider garbage, and i threw in selegiline and escitalopram there a long time ago, and from what ive read, the meds that are in my hall of **** are even worthless in combination.

My hall of fame is a differend story. Even Nortriptyline is in my hall of fame because it has some potential in combination with other meds.
Nortriptyline+MAOI+Amphetamine is probably the most effective combo for depression.


----------



## zendog78

There are a lot of people in this thread who are making a big effort to slag off Nardil. It's not a drug for everyone, I made that clean in the original post. It has some full on side effects that are difficult to get past.

Some people here seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the drug and are determined to demonize it much has mainstream psych has done.

Its good to get peoples imput on there experience with Nardil positive or negative but all I am hearing is that nardil is crap because of x y z but the suggestions for alternatives are what?

Alcohol 
(great, the most harmful addictive drug known to man after tobacco)
Clonazepam ( well noted for its tendency to cause depression with long term use)

Amphetamines 
(addictive, destabilizing, psychosis inducing medications that are contraindicated in anxiety disorders)

Un-named combinations of drugs 
( If you have a combo that has helped as many people as nardil please feel free to share it)

So far the only suggestion that has some merit for treatment resistant SA in this thread is antidepressant combinations that I mentioned above. If you search the net you will find case reports of such successful combinations but only that. Case reports which really don't mean much.

I think it is worth a try if you can find a doctor to do it but it is an exceeding tricky and time consuming process where you could be better off sticking with a MAOI like nardil and giving yourself a few months to get past the side effects. And don't forget, that there is PLENTY of evidence and reports of severe and fatal reactions from antidepressant combinations, just do a search. 


> *What is the evidence supporting combinations of antidepressants?
> *
> Combinations involving monoamine oxidase inhibitors with stimulants, tricyclics and SSRIs are well known to have potentially lethal consequences.17 Toxicity may be serious, and includes serotonin syndrome (nervousness, confusion, tremor, restlessness, sweating, hyperreflexia, shivering and myoclonus).
> 
> The combination of tricyclic antidepressants with SSRIs is less effective than raising SSRI dose alone.22 A double-blind study did not show any difference between monotherapy and fluoxetine-desipramine combination.23 Furthermore, drug interactions are likely, as some SSRIs inhibit tricyclic metabolism through the cytochrome P450 system, increasing the risk of cardiotoxicity, seizures and delirium.
> 
> Two double-blind placebo-controlled trials have shown that adjunctive mianserin augments response to SSRIs in resistant major depression.24,25 Another large study found no advantage of sertraline plus mianserin over sertraline alone, and combination was associated with increased sedation and weight gain.12
> 
> A double-blind study enrolled 26 patients who had not responded to SSRIs, venlafaxine and bupropion at various doses for variable but prolonged periods. Patients then received mirtazapine or placebo augmentation for 4 weeks. Mirtazapine augmentation resulted in a 64% rate of response, compared with 20% for placebo; side effects were not marked.26
> 
> In 2001, a large double-blind study of patients resistant to citalopram compared adjunctive bupropion with buspirone. Both adjuncts were associated with improvement, but bupropion (not available as an antidepressant in Australia) was superior and better tolerated (there was no comparison group of patients continuing on citalopram only).20 *These studies do not constitute persuasive evidence in favour of antidepressant combinations.*





> There is little evidence to support use of antidepressant combinations. Risk of toxicity and drug interactions mandate that combinations be used as a last resort, and only in specialist settings.


http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/186_03_050207/kek10636_fm.html#0_pgfId-1091868



> *Combining antidepressant treatments*
> Although there are advocates for combining antidepressants with different receptor profiles for presumed added efficacy, *there is scant scientific evidence for the effectiveness of such combinations over treatment with a single efficacious drug. In contrast, there is an abundance of data on toxic and fatal interactions, especially those that lead to cardiac arrhythmias, or the serotonin syndrome*. In due course, there may be support for the use of some combinations in particular circumstances, but the balance of evidence at this time suggests that there may be increased risk to the patient with doubtful increased benefit. Augmentation of antidepressant response with drugs like lithium may be an option in patients whose response is otherwise inadequate.


http://www.australianprescriber.com/magazine/22/5/108/11/



> Objective: Many patients with depression remain poorly responsive to antidepressant monotherapy. One approach for managing treatment-resistant depression is to combine antidepressants and to capitalize on multiple therapeutic mechanisms of action. This review critically evaluates the evidence for efficacy of combining antidepressants. Method: A MEDLINE search of the last 15 years (up to June 2001), supplemented by a review of bibliographies, was conducted to identify relevant studies. Criteria used to select studies included (1) published studies with original data in peer-reviewed journals, (2) diagnosis of depression with partial or no response to standard treatments, (3) any combination of 2 antidepressants with both agents used to enhance antidepressant response, (4) outcome measurement of clinical response, and (5) sample size of 4 or more subjects. Results: Twenty-seven studies (total N = 667) met the inclusion criteria, including 5 randomized controlled trials and 22 open-label trials. In the 24 studies (total N = 601) reporting response rates, the overall mean response rate was 62.2%. Methodological limitations included variability in definitions of treatment-resistant depression and response to treatment, dosing of medications, and reporting of adverse events. Conclusion: *There is limited evidence, mostly in uncontrolled studies, supporting the efficacy of combination antidepressant treatment.* Further randomized controlled trials with larger sample sizes are required to demonstrate the efficacy of a combination antidepressant strategy for patients with treatment-resistant depression.


http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13857143


----------



## Ehsan

zendog78 said:


> There are a lot of people in this thread who are making a big effort to slag off Nardil. It's not a drug for everyone, I made that clean in the original post. It has some full on side effects that are difficult to get past.
> 
> Some people here seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the drug and are determined to demonize it much has mainstream psych has done.
> 
> Its good to get peoples imput on there experience with Nardil positive or negative but all I am hearing is that nardil is crap because of x y z but the suggestions for alternatives are what?
> 
> Alcohol
> (great, the most harmful addictive drug known to man after tobacco)
> Clonazepam ( well noted for its tendency to cause depression with long term use)
> 
> Amphetamines
> (addictive, destabilizing, psychosis inducing medications that are contraindicated in anxiety disorders)
> 
> Un-named combinations of drugs
> ( If you have a combo that has helped as many people as nardil please feel free to share it)
> 
> So far the only suggestion that has some merit for treatment resistant SA in this thread is antidepressant combinations that I mentioned above. If you search the net you will find case reports of such successful combinations but only that. Case reports which really don't mean much.
> 
> I think it is worth a try if you can find a doctor to do it but it is an exceeding tricky and time consuming process where you could be better off sticking with a MAOI like nardil and giving yourself a few months to get past the side effects. And don't forget, that there is PLENTY of evidence and reports of severe and fatal reactions from antidepressant combinations, just do a search.
> 
> http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/186_03_050207/kek10636_fm.html#0_pgfId-1091868
> 
> http://www.australianprescriber.com/magazine/22/5/108/11/
> 
> http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13857143


seems you are trying to prove 2+2=5


----------



## zendog78

Ba? Wa?


----------



## Ehsan

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> How about Parnate + Lyrica? I'm going to give that one a go very soon.


*Pregabalin* seems interesting. increases GABA and decreases glutamate.two goals with one stone!


----------



## zendog78

That could be a very good combo I think, give it a go. I found Parnate helped a lot with my anxiety but it made me depressed (go figure). I kinda of enjoyed it though as I had this deadpan wit and a "I don't give a ****" persona.
Very very reactive to tyramine, heaps more than nardil so be carefull


----------



## euphoria

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> Who knows! Maybe if it works then I won't have to resist infatuation anymore! YAY!


Why are you doing that, by the way?


----------



## euphoria

Good luck with the Parnate.


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

Guide 4 Dummies said:


> Short answer: Too socially anxious. (LSAS 130+, can't get out of home without 3-4 mg Xanax + 40 mg Inderal).
> 
> I'm failing miserably because I know deep inside that this is one of those once-in-a-lifetime chances. I HOPE that Parnate works.


dude, i didnt know what u meant about that until u clarified....i can totally feel you man. this has happened to me multiple times, sometimes its not so obvious, but other times it would become really clear what i was missing/avoiding, its so painful dude. especially when its only anxiety, that causes me to throw amazing opportunities down the drain. I really hope the Parnate works 4 you too.


----------



## sadboy

Excuse my ignorance but why would Nardil work better than an SSRI like Lexapro for SA?


----------



## crayzyMed

sadboy said:


> Excuse my ignorance but why would Nardil work better than an SSRI like Lexapro for SA?


Because:
Lexapro is garbage
Nardil has a wide mechanism of action, raises dopamine, serotonin, GABA and melatonin.
And I'm sure that you cant achieve the same benefits with adding meds togheter as garbage+garbage = garbage.
Nardil may act on some unknown receptors wich explains its effectiveness.


----------



## sadboy

crayzyMed said:


> Because:
> Lexapro is garbage
> Nardil has a wide mechanism of action, raises dopamine, serotonin, GABA and melatonin.
> And I'm sure that you cant achieve the same benefits with adding meds togheter as garbage+garbage = garbage.
> Nardil may act on some unknown receptors wich explains its effectiveness.


Ah, I see, thanks.


----------



## Ehsan

crayzyMed said:


> Lexapro is garbage


not true.
lexapro has a very good rating for SAD. it's most prescribed antidepressant in 2008.



crayzyMed said:


> Nardil has a wide mechanism of action, raises dopamine, serotonin, GABA and melatonin.


you can make similar mechanism or even better using a combination.



crayzyMed said:


> And I'm sure that you cant achieve the same benefits with adding meds togheter as garbage+garbage = garbage.


scientific!!!



crayzyMed said:


> Nardil may act on some unknown receptors wich explains its effectiveness.


is nardil the only chemical in the world that hits that unkown receptors!!!!

there are some myths that say nardil abolishes SAD which is completely false. i have lots of user-ratings and meta-analysis which show nardil's improvement size isn't different from other meds.

*meta analysis i've collected from different papers:*









*users rating*


----------



## zendog78

Can you provide a source for those studies please Ehsan?

Thing is that it has been well documented that pharmacetical companies run several trials on a given drug, manipulating the time, dose, and methodology and then pic the ones that have the most robust response for publication.

I met a medical student once who ghost wrote research articles for well know professors and the like to sign off on and I don't doubt that Pharmacetical companys would use viral marketing techneiques for any new drug loading up forums with positive reviews.

Antidepressants 'no better than placebo' - February 26, 2008

http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2008/02/post_3.html

I'm not sure you can take any study at face value with antidepressants being such big business these days


----------



## crayzyMed

Ehsan said:


> not true.
> lexapro has a very good rating for SAD. it's most prescribed antidepressant in 2008.
> 
> *Rating from where? revolutionhealth.com? That site cant be taken serieus and the ratings there arent consistent with all the other anecdotal reports.
> In short it appears that mostly only ppl that respond to medication post there.*
> *Go read about ssri's for depression, then read this meta analysis.
> http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045
> Science baby, you cant beat that.*
> 
> you can make similar mechanism or even better using a combination.
> 
> *Then what combination? I asked you that before and you said "i dont know" well go figure it the hell out as so far all combinations of regular antidepressants suck too.*
> 
> scientific!!!
> 
> 
> 
> is nardil the only chemical in the world that hits that unkown receptors!!!!
> 
> *Then give me the name of that unknown chemical my friend, i'm dying to know. Whats as good as Nardil? Tell us!*
> 
> there are some myths that say nardil abolishes SAD which is completely false. i have lots of user-ratings and meta-analysis which show nardil's improvement size isn't different from other meds.
> 
> *Offcourse it doesnt work for everyone, who claimed that? It does work for hell alot more ppl then that ssri's.*
> 
> meta analysis i've collected from different papers:
> 
> *Read my meta analysis for some objective information.*


....


----------



## Ehsan

zendog78 said:


> Can you provide a source for those studies please Ehsan?


i've used the following paper for nardil. it's one of the latest papers published considering nardil in SAD by well-known scientist Liebowitz:

Cognitive behavioral group therapy vs phenelzine therapy for social phobia: 12-week outcome.

a comparison between nardil and meclebomide in SAD:
Pharmacotherapy of social phobia. A controlled study with moclobemide and phenelzine

*these are papers i've used for Sertraline for example:*
MULTIDIMENSIONAL EFFECTS OF SERTRALINE IN SOCIAL ANXIETY DISORDER by Kathryn M. Connor, M.D., Jonathan R.T. Davidson, M.D., Henry Chung, M.D., Ruoyong Yang, Ph.D., and Cathryn M. Clary, M.D.

Sertraline Treatment of Generalized Social Phobia:A 20-Week, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study 
by Michael A. Van Ameringen et al



zendog78 said:


> Thing is that it has been well documented that pharmacetical companies run several trials on a given drug, manipulating the time, dose, and methodology and then pic the ones that have the most robust response for publication.
> I met a medical student once who ghost wrote research articles for well know professors and the like to sign off on and I don't doubt that Pharmacetical companys would use viral marketing techneiques for any new drug loading up forums with positive reviews.
> 
> Antidepressants 'no better than placebo' - February 26, 2008
> 
> http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2008/02/post_3.html
> 
> I'm not sure you can take any study at face value with antidepressants being such big business these days


i know that these methods are already used by many ones(i've seen myself in the field of engineering) to write new papers but we shouldn't suspect all papers.

anyway, many people respond to their firs meds and there isn't any reason for them to come to forums. on the other hand, many few ones try nardil and it isn't available in many countries. i think MAOIs have a higher response rate but they don't abolish SAD. we need better combination

it is known that HPA axis and CRF are highly related to all anxiety and depression disorders but nardil can't affect CRF or many other factors involved in SAD.



> When an organism is under stress, or perceives itself under stress, the hypothalamus secretes corticotropin-releasing hormone/factor (CRH/CRF). CRH/CRF in turn increases secretion of adrenocorticotrophic hormone (ACTH) from the anterior pituitary. ACTH in turn stimulates the release of glucocorticoids from the adrenal cortex. Persistent, uncontrolled physical and psychosocial stress causes excess cortisol secretion from the adrenal glands. Excess cortisol causes dendritic shrinkage in the hippocampus and a contrasting growth of dendrites in the lateral amygdala. These stress-induced changes tend to lower mood; they can cause clinical depression in the genetically vulnerable.


unfortunately, there isn't any miracle drug for SAD. we should separate what one drug can do and what it can't do.
*
what nardil can do:*
1)inhibit MAO-A and MAO-B so increase Dopamine, Serotonin, GABA and trace amines(reduces NE activity)
2) it slightly releases Dopamine which is pleasant and help sociability.
*
what nardil can't do:*
1) to agonize or antagonize receptor subtypes selectively. for example 5-ht2 antagonists are shown to decrease anxiety and depression while 5-ht1 agonists decrease anxiety.
2)to affect many hormones(oxytocin,...), neuropeptides(CRF,...), receptors(NMDA,...), neurotransmitters(Glutamate, ...), enzymes, ... involved in SAD or other mental disorders.

nardil can help many ones who haven't responded to simple selective antidepressants but there is many other combos to try for who want better results or who haven't responded to nardil.


----------



## crayzyMed

I completely agree that nardil isnt a miracle drug, i never claimed that it is. I however did learn that there's more then just looking at the mechanism of action of a drug.

For example, riluzole was found to be very effective for OCD, but lamictal with the same mechanism of action is NOT.
Reports about emsam seem far more negative then those about Nardil while both have the same mechanism of action.
Buspar is a 5HT1A agonist but its barely effective.

And so one.

I AM convinced that there are combo's that are far better then Nardil, but those would involve benzo's, amphetamine or something else. Combo's with agomelatine, memantine etc could work very well too, i'm just very skeptical of the effectiveness of SSRI's and doubt they would be good in combination with other stuff.
Its just that i read about ppl combining ssri's+wellbutrin with little succes and that often something that looks good on paper isnt good at all, moclobemide and reboxetine being good examples.


----------



## UltraShy

zendog78 said:


> Why do you think there continues to be a market for several new antidepressants every year?


I can think of two reasons:

1. Financial: "new" drug (which often means slight variation on old drug) bring a new patent and piles of money for big pharma which I mock as huge marketing firms with a little chemistry lab out back.

2. Antidepressants tend not to work very well, leaving plenty of patients to try the next "wonder drug." Even in clinical trials designed by the company that produces the drug where they make the trial to present their drug in the most positive light possible they still typically only get it to be effective in about twice as many as respond to sugar pills. They'll crow about how 70% responded to their drug, leaving out that 35% responded to a sugar pill! They don't lie, they just leave out the truth.


----------



## jim_morrison

Ehsan said:


> *what nardil can do:*
> 1)inhibit MAO-A and MAO-B so increase Dopamine, *Serotonin*, GABA and trace amines(reduces NE activity)
> 2) it slightly releases Dopamine which is pleasant and help sociability.
> 
> *what nardil can't do:*
> 1) to agonize or antagonize receptor subtypes selectively. for example 5-ht2 antagonists are shown to decrease anxiety and depression while 5-ht1 agonists decrease anxiety.
> 2)to affect many hormones(*oxytocin*,...), neuropeptides(CRF,...), receptors(NMDA,...), neurotransmitters(Glutamate, ...), enzymes, ... involved in SAD or other mental disorders.


Doesn't anything that increases serotonin (ie SSRI's, MAOIs) inadvertantly also raise oxcytocin levels to an extent?


----------



## Ehsan

jim_morrison said:


> Doesn't anything that increases serotonin (ie SSRI's, MAOIs) inadvertantly also raise oxcytocin levels to an extent?


i've read somewhere that some of TCAs(anfranil) increase CSF level of oxytocin and decrease CRF but further research needed.

Changes in cerebrospinal fluid neurochemistry during treatment of obsessive-compulsive disorder with clomipramine.


> This study examined the effect of long-term (mean, 19 months) treatment with clomipramine hydrochloride on cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) levels of several neuropeptides and monoamine metabolites in children and adolescents with obsessive-compulsive disorder. METHODS: The CSF levels of corticotropin-releasing hormone, vasopressin, somatostatin, and oxytocin and of the monoamine metabolites 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid, homovanillic acid, and 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol were measured in 17 children and adolescents with obsessive-compulsive disorder before and after long-term treatment with clomipramine. *RESULTS*: Treatment resulted in significant decreases in CSF levels of corticotropin-releasing hormone (mean +/- SD, 175 +/- 32 vs 152 +/- 25 pmol/L, P < .03) and vasopressin (mean +/- SD, 1.30 +/- 0.57 vs 0.86 +/- 0.54 pmol/L, P < .02) and a trend toward a decrease in somatostatin levels (mean +/- SD, 21.3 +/- 8.5 vs 15.3 +/- 9.8 pmol/L, P < .06). Treatment also significantly increased CSF oxytocin levels (mean +/- SD, 6.05 +/- 1.60 vs 6.70 +/- 1.44 pmol/L, P < .01). Significant changes in CSF monoamine metabolite levels with treatment included significant decreases in CSF levels of 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (mean +/- SD, 109 +/- 31 vs 77 +/- 23 pmol/mL, P < .001), CSF homovanillic acid (mean +/- SD, 273 +/- 111 vs 237 +/- 101 pmol/mL, P < .04), and 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol (mean +/- SD, 42.4 +/- 10.2 vs 36.1 +/- 4.8 pmol/L, P < .02) and a significant increase in the homovanillic acid-5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ratio (mean +/- SD, 2.44 +/- 0.46 vs 3.42 +/- 0.84, P < .0001). CONCLUSIONS: These neuropeptide results coupled with evidence that central administration of corticotropin-releasing hormone, vasopressin, and somatostatin to laboratory animals increases arousal and acquisition of conditioned behaviors whereas central administration of oxytocin has opposite behavioral effects are consistent with a role for these neuropeptides in the pathophysiologic processes and pharmacologic treatment of obsessive-compulsive disorder.


----------



## euphoria

When I said combinations I means combos of different types of drugs to affect different systems, not SSRI + SSRI.



crayzyMed said:


> Buspar is a 5HT1A agonist but its barely effective.


But it's a very weak agonist, with other undesirable effects (D2/a2 blockade).



> Its just that i read about ppl combining ssri's+wellbutrin with little succes and that often something that looks good on paper isnt good at all, moclobemide and reboxetine being good examples.


Most of the reports I've seen of SSRIs with Wellbutrin were good. Moclobemide and reboxetine aren't very good, I agree.


----------



## Ehsan

UltraShy said:


> I can think of two reasons:
> 
> 1. Financial: "new" drug (which often means slight variation on old drug) bring a new patent and piles of money for big pharma which I mock as huge marketing firms with a little chemistry lab out back.
> 
> 2. Antidepressants tend not to work very well, leaving plenty of patients to try the next "wonder drug." Even in clinical trials designed by the company that produces the drug where they make the trial to present their drug in the most positive light possible they still typically only get it to be effective in about twice as many as respond to sugar pills. They'll crow about how 70% responded to their drug, leaving out that 35% responded to a sugar pill! They don't lie, they just leave out the truth.


ok,
but i think introducing SSRIs was only a try to make antidepressant more safe not more effective. 
they are really selective for serotonin transporter.
this is enough for many ones but someone need more potent meds so it's almost impossible that one respond differently to two different SSRI other than when some drug has some unknown mechanism of action.

i agree that pharmaceutical companies are making huge benefit while their meds does not work for many ones but they need some motivation to continue their work


----------



## crayzyMed

euphoria said:


> When I said combinations I means combos of different types of drugs to affect different systems, not SSRI + SSRI.
> 
> But it's a very weak agonist, with other undesirable effects (D2/a2 blockade).
> 
> Most of the reports I've seen of SSRIs with Wellbutrin were good. Moclobemide and reboxetine aren't very good, I agree.


Okay..., if your right i'l change my mind, still not convinced it would match the effectiveness of MAOI's tough .


----------



## crayzyMed

Ehsan said:


> ok,
> but i think introducing SSRIs was only a try to make antidepressant more safe not more effective.
> they are really selective for serotonin transporter.
> this is enough for many ones but someone need more potent meds so it's almost impossible that one respond differently to two different SSRI other than when some drug has some unknown mechanism of action.
> 
> i agree that pharmaceutical companies are making huge benefit while their meds does not work for many ones but they need some motivation to continue their work


They are working on some interesting things, if only research could go a little faster.


----------



## Ehsan

> Most of the reports I've seen of SSRIs with Wellbutrin were good. Moclobemide and reboxetine aren't very good, I agree.


i've just started selegiline+fluoxetine+wellbutrin+inderal and i will report my experiences soon. 
however i don't need miracle drugs anymore coz my SAD has turned to a mild one after three years of medication.


----------



## euphoria

Ehsan said:


> i've just started selegiline+fluoxetine+wellbutrin+inderal and i will report my experiences soon.
> however i don't need miracle drugs anymore coz my SAD has turned to a mild one after three years of medication.


It might be wise to check your blood pressure regularly when on that combo, as you are combining stimulant + beta blocker.


----------



## Ehsan

euphoria said:


> It might be wise to check your blood pressure regularly when on that combo, as you are combining stimulant + beta blocker.


thanks, i'll do that.


----------



## crayzyMed

Ehsan said:


> i've just started selegiline+fluoxetine+wellbutrin+inderal and i will report my experiences soon.
> however i don't need miracle drugs anymore coz my SAD has turned to a mild one after three years of medication.


Okay, i hope the combo works for you, this is the first time ive seen anyone come up with this combo, it makes sense pharmacology wise.
If you want to replicate a MAOI i would add in melatonin as its been suggested that the increase in melatonin contributes to the antidepressant effect.[1].

Maybe some gabatril to counteract any possible increase in anxiety caused by deprenyl and wellbutrin and this combo could have some major potential.


----------



## Ehsan

crayzyMed said:


> Okay, i hope the combo works for you, this is the first time ive seen anyone come up with this combo, it makes sense pharmacology wise.
> If you want to replicate a MAOI i would add in melatonin as its been suggested that the increase in melatonin contributes to the antidepressant effect.[1].
> 
> Maybe some gabatril to counteract any possible increase in anxiety caused by deprenyl and wellbutrin and this combo could have some major potential.


thanks,
i take melatonin every night however i'm not going to make a complete regime now.


----------



## crayzyMed

Ehsan said:


> thanks,
> i take melatonin every night however i'm not going to make a complete regime now.


What was your previeus regime? Because you said it helped reduce your anxiety? Why did you stop taking it?
Just interested.


----------



## Ehsan

crayzyMed said:


> What was your previeus regime? Because you said it helped reduce your anxiety? Why did you stop taking it?
> Just interested.


the last successful one was anfranil + cyproheptadine + inderal + metocloperamide. seems very strange but worked great.
i complete the treatment with one regime and then switch to a new one. luckily results are permanent in my case!

 *clonazepam(0.5-1mg)[1 month]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------15% improvement(first week)
clonazepam(0.5-2mg)+citalopram(20-60mg)+Inderal(20-80mg)[1.5 month] ------------------------5% improvement
clonazepam(0.5mg)+citalopram(40mg)+fluoxetine(20-80mg)+Inderal(40mg)[1.5 month]-------Not Percieved
citalopram(40mg)+fluoxetine(80mg)[4.5months]------------------------------------------------------------Not Percieved
sertraline(50mg)[12months]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Not Percieved
sertraline(100mg)+citalopram(20mg)+Inderal(20mg)[1 month]----------------------------------------10% improvement
clomipramine(50mg)+metoclopramide(5mg)+cyproheptadine(1mg)+Inderal(10mg)[1month]--15% improvement
gabapentin(300-900mg)+magnesium(250-400mg)[1month]----------------------------------------------5% improvement
trazodone(50mg)[2weeks]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Not Percieved
 
*now trying: bupropion(200mg)+fluoxetine(40mg)+selegiline(5mg)+cyproheptadine(1mg)

also tried alprazolam, chlordiazepoxide, baclofen, melatonin, piracetam, valporate sodium and nortrotyline.


----------



## crayzyMed

Lol, i tought i was the only one interested in trying metocloperamide for anxiety, didnt go true with it tough.

I dont really understand your chart tough, 15% improvement with that regime isnt that much? thats the results i get with memantine only.
And what does not perceived mean? (i'm not english).


----------



## zendog78

So hang on a minute

This thread is basically going in the direction of saying that there are more effective treatments with less side effects than Nardil.

So

What are these treatments? Monotherapy, polypharmacy?
Is there evidence for them, real evidence, not just theory.
Do they provide a sustained response?

I would keep an open mind to any combination therapy with drugs that are not ssris. But my experience with SSRI's and the experience of many many others is that they do not work or that you rapidly build a tollerence to them.

If there was a treatment better than Nardil, I would sure as hell be interested as the side effects such, but I must have tried 50 different drus over the years in several combinations and nothing even comes close to the effectivness of Nardil for me


----------



## crayzyMed

There's no evidence that they are as good as Nardil, theoretically its possible to raise the same neurotransmitters as nardil with a combination of several meds, HOWEVER i remain skeptical that you can achieve the same results as with nardil.

I'l have to see it before i beleive it.

Personally i think its easier to just counteract the side effects of nardil instead of recreating another Nardil.
(NRI to counteract hypotension for example).


----------



## Ehsan

crayzyMed said:


> Lol, i tought i was the only one interested in trying metocloperamide for anxiety, didnt go true with it tough.


metoclopramide is D2/5-ht3 antagonist. i think it's interesting.



crayzyMed said:


> I dont really understand your chart tough, *15% improvement with that regime isnt that much?* thats the results i get with memantine only.
> And *what does not perceived mean*? (i'm not english).


i said before. that regime is strange for myself too. but it worked great.
i mean i didn't perceived any improvement with that regime


----------



## crayzyMed

D2 antagonism is bad thing tough, not sure why you want that? 5HT3 antagonism could help anxiety and i like that property of memantine. I wanted it for its 5HT4 agonism.



> clonazepam(0.5mg)+citalopram(40mg)+fluoxetine(20-80mg)+Inderal(40mg)[1.5 month]-


That regime didnt work for you, while clonazepam on its own did work, thats weird.


----------



## Ehsan

crayzyMed said:


> D2 antagonism is bad thing tough, not sure why you want that? 5HT3 antagonism could help anxiety and i like that property of memantine. I wanted it for its 5HT4 agonism.


i wanted it for 5-ht3 antagonism however d2 antagonism is not so bad because it increase dopamine release(antagonizing autoreceptors)



crayzyMed said:


> That regime didnt work for you, while clonazepam on its own did work, thats weird.


no isn't weird at all, because as i mentioned in the table klonopin worked only for first week and i didn't perceive any extra improvement after that but i continued it.


----------



## crayzyMed

Oh, i didnt realise you got tolerant to it, now it makes sense.

D2 antagonism increasing dopamine release, i assume you mean antagonism of the D2 autoreceptors?, the problem is that those upregulate/downregulate quite rapidly.


----------



## Ehsan

zendog78 said:


> If there was a treatment better than Nardil, I would sure as hell be interested as the side effects such, but I must have tried 50 different drus over the years in several combinations and nothing even comes close to the effectivness of Nardil for me


don't know what to say. seems everybody is different.


----------



## Ehsan

crayzyMed said:


> D2 antagonism increasing dopamine release, i assume you mean antagonism of the D2 autoreceptors?, the problem is that those upregulate/downregulate quite rapidly.


i designed! new regime to be a dopaminergic one.
even fluoxetine is added to inhibit wellbutrin's metabolism to hydroxy-bupropion. bupropion is metabolized very extensively to hydroxy-bupropion by CYP2B6 which is only norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. fluoxetine is a potent inhibitor of CYP2B6.


----------



## flyinsoup

zendog78 said:


> Nardil on the other hand, one thing I noticed is that I can not just feel emotions instead of being emotionally anesthetized, I feel more fully.
> When I have felt sad, appropriately so because of a movie, sad news whatever, I feel a deeper more complete more full sadness. A healthy kind of sadness, I guess sadness minus the distress.


That's good to hear. Do you feel drugged at all, or that your mind is somewhat numbed, similar to what a benzodiazepine may cause? Does it feel like you're taking something? Or do you feel like yourself, and think clearly and naturally?

What about the fatigue--has that subsided?


----------



## zendog78

There was one combination that I made..maybe even discovered which was combining selegiline with ritalin. Kicked the arse outa my depression and to a lessor extent my anxiety...by basically pushing me into full on mania.

Very interesting combination, scary, weird. It made me more high than any other drug I have take, more than dexies, more than crystal meth. But it was a different high, more mental and without the peripheral stimulation amphetamines give. I started coming up with all these designs for wacky mechanical devices. I was coming up with contraptions that worked with various levers and sliding joints. I could visualize how they would all work and interact in my head...my visualization ability was supercharged maybe 400%. I have never been able to draw but I within a week I was doing some pretty damn good engineering drawings.

But it was madness. And, as the Maoi A inhibition started kicking in after a month I had some major hypotensive episodes. It also obliterated my short term memory to the extent that I would have these episodes over and over and be scared for my life and forget and keep using it.
I even took myself to the ED because of an episode and then went home and dosed again.

I kept using it at lower doses for about 8 months, I finally stopped when I got dexies and headed down a whole new road of ****eduppedness.
For a while there I was scared that I had given myself permanent brain damage and maybe I did as I acquired dyslexia at the age of 25
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexia_(acquired_dyslexia)
This is what can happen with creative polypharmacology


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

zendog78 said:


> There was one combination that I made..maybe even discovered which was combining selegiline with ritalin. Kicked the arse outa my depression and to a lessor extent my anxiety...by basically pushing me into full on mania.
> 
> Very interesting combination, scary, weird. It made me more high than any other drug I have take, more than dexies, more than crystal meth. But it was a different high, more mental and without the peripheral stimulation amphetamines give. I started coming up with all these designs for wacky mechanical devices. I was coming up with contraptions that worked with various levers and sliding joints. I could visualize how they would all work and interact in my head...my visualization ability was supercharged maybe 400%. I have never been able to draw but I within a week I was doing some pretty damn good engineering drawings.


DUDE! i was just about to say the same thing, cuz Ehsan was talking about a variation of it with Wellbutrin instead of Ritalin. At the time, I was on 10mg Lexapro, + 36 mg Concerta . Then i Added the 6mg EMSAM (selegiline) patch. My depression was pretty much gone, my ADD symptoms were completely reversed....and i was very euphoric. My SA and OCD were either the same or made worse by the combo...It only took a couple days before i started getting psychotic, coming up with crazy ideas like you mentioned. It WAS crazy...I started making all these Mental diagrams explaining correlations between different random stuff, my brain was just supercharged (and it wouldn't stop, id lay in bed, my head felt like it was exploding.) I would monologue to my mom For hours about my abstract conclusions , not like normal talking, it was like Tweaked-out insanity.

Of course, I get tolerant to stuff 10 times faster than normal people, so in 2 weeks it didn't work. But 4 normal people it could be a great antidepressant Combo.


----------



## UltraShy

Ehsan said:


> ok,
> but i think introducing SSRIs was only a try to make antidepressant more safe not more effective.


If safe but not very effective was their goal they met it.

TCAs ruled the world before Prozac and all the other SSRIs came along. Unlike TCAs that will produce fatal ODs, a doctor can give even the most suicidal folks SSRIs without worry. If they die it sure won't be from eating a bottle of SSRIs.

MAOIs are fatal too if combined with various other drugs. It's hard to come up with anything that's a fatal danger if mixed with an SSRI.


----------



## crayzyMed

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> DUDE! i was just about to say the same thing, cuz Ehsan was talking about a variation of it with Wellbutrin instead of Ritalin. At the time, I was on 10mg Lexapro, + 36 mg Concerta . Then i Added the 6mg EMSAM (selegiline) patch. My depression was pretty much gone, my ADD symptoms were completely reversed....and i was very euphoric. My SA and OCD were either the same or made worse by the combo...It only took a couple days before i started getting psychotic, coming up with crazy ideas like you mentioned. It WAS crazy...I started making all these Mental diagrams explaining correlations between different random stuff, my brain was just supercharged (and it wouldn't stop, id lay in bed, my head felt like it was exploding.) I would monologue to my mom For hours about my abstract conclusions , not like normal talking, it was like Tweaked-out insanity.
> 
> Of course, I get tolerant to stuff 10 times faster than normal people, so in 2 weeks it didn't work. But 4 normal people it could be a great antidepressant Combo.


Yeah ive read about this combo, dangerous to stay on it daily.


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

crayzyMed said:


> Yeah ive read about this combo, dangerous to stay on it daily.


i know, they should use Selegiline+Concerta as a human/animal model of psychosis, instead of PCP. But i guess its like opposites kindasorta, cuz doesn't PCP inhibit cognitive function? Selegiline+Concerta causesd AED (Attention Excess Disorder) for me, + psychosis, but my cognitive functions were enhanced. Im not being sarcastic, I could write a huge book filled with all the different theories/models/diagrams/explanations I came up with when i was on Seleg+Concerta. I already think too much, it exponentially amplified my thinking. Its funny since OCD = thinking too much/not being able to stop or control it. It just turns OCD thoughts from distressing things into....potentially realistic Ideas.


----------



## euphoria

crayzyMed said:


> Yeah ive read about this combo, dangerous to stay on it daily.


Wouldn't it be about the same as taking amphetamine daily?


----------



## crayzyMed

euphoria said:


> Wouldn't it be about the same as taking amphetamine daily?


No, amphetamine's have an extensive safety record and are used by a huge ammount of people without problems.
The combo of ritalin and deprenyl on the other hand causes an extreme focus etc, just read about vini's and zendog's experience, it would lead to psychosis. Havent read many good reports about the combo, well maybe good for a few days, but nothing interesting long term.


----------



## euphoria

But surely it's a matter of dose. They both potently increase dopamine. Amphetamine in high doses can also induce severe psychosis.


----------



## crayzyMed

euphoria said:


> But surely it's a matter of dose. They both potently increase dopamine. Amphetamine in high doses can also induce severe psychosis.


Well, i gues no-one has found the right dose then:stu. I doubt anything usefull can come out of this combo.

I agree that you can avoid psychosis with low doses, but i doubt youll get any benefits out it then, ritalin also just sucks for social anxiety.


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

crayzyMed said:


> Well, i gues no-one has found the right dose then:stu. I doubt anything usefull can come out of this combo.
> 
> I agree that you can avoid psychosis with low doses, but i doubt youll get any benefits out it then, ritalin also just sucks for social anxiety.


With something to Block Norepinephrine, it would work for a couple weeks, If i got the same response. But the combo is so Adrenergic, I was twitching like crazy. I drank Alcohol with it mostly every day that i could, including before i went to school, because i couldnt survive the SA that it was causing. And that was with an SSRI (which proves how lame SSRIs are lolol). If u can prevent the tolerance to the DA effects and block NA it could be pretty crazy awesome. But it just makes sense that youd get tolerant pretty fast to the DA effects of Concerta....I mean, its like identical to Cocaine, it just can't last forever.


----------



## euphoria

Twitching is also a sign of high DA, pramipexole causes twitching. Maybe if the combo was combined with a benzo and memantine, the anxiety and tolerance could be prevented.


----------



## zendog78

I thought I would give an update on my Nardil progress.
Things are continuing to go well. About a month ago I dropped the dose from 90mg to 60mg because of urinary retention and spontanious hypotensive episodes. 
After I had been on 60mg for about a week these symptoms became bareable, after about 3 weeks they had mostly gone however there was still one distressing side effect that didn't go which is anorgasmia. 
So I dropped back down to 45mg and today after being on this dose for about a week I was able to bat one out after not being able to for about 3 months. (I wouldn't normally de so graphic but I'm sure others are dealing with the same thing so I will continue)
Even at this dose I had to do it in the morning about 14 hours after my last dose to get a result. There wasn't a lot of pleasure associated with it and the orgasm came a few seconds after the ejaculation. My genitals still feel kind of numbed as well. Also I am nowhere near as horny as I was on the higher dose. Talk about frustrating!! 
But, I am still ok on this lower dose, I am getting to work and not having panic attacks but I don't feel anywhere near as awesome and prosocial as I felt on 60 or 90mg. More fatigue as well on this lower dose.
Will update again at a later point. I still rekon nardil is the best thing out there, despite all these annoying side effects.


----------



## Payn

if anyone know where I can find Parnate or Nardil in European Union, please contact me via PM.

many thanks


----------



## zendog78

Google is your friend dude.

I approached a pharmacy when I was in Berlin, they were able to order it in at a cost of about 100 euros I think, Sure you will be able to get it cheaper online though


----------



## Dav779

Hi, i'm French, so my english is very basic (yes, French people are very bad with others languages ).

I'm 20 years old.

I've had a very strong depression around my 16 years old, i'm since treated by 150mg of amitriptyline (TCA), each evening, and i can tell : amitriptyline saved my life, but i wanna change for phenelzine, i've many reasons for that :

- i've feeling that my depression is come back since some months (for no reasons apparent), i've anew suicidal ideas...

- when my psychiatrist given me amitriptyline for my depression, it was also for my insomnia, amitriptyline is a very potent anti H1, it cause on me very strong sedation, i sleep 12-14 hours. Actually i need a stimulant antidepressant. i've also take 40lbs in 3 years of treatment...

- i 've also SA but none anxiolytics work for me, i've tried many benzos (alprazolam, diazepam, clonazepam, clorazepate, clobazam, bromazepam, lorazepam, oxazepam, tetrazepam, prazepam...) hypno benzos (loprazolam, temazepam, flunitrazepam, estazolam) derivated hypno benzos (zolpidem, zopiclone) and others anxiolytics like (pregabaline, gabapentine, etifoxine, buspirone, hydroxyzine) without success.

- i don't wanna tried SSRI, SNRI, or TeCas, i need a really strong antidepressant.

- I'm leaving in France, we've only 3 MAOI commercialized :

Marsilid (Iproniazide) too much hepatotoxic for me
Moclamine (Moclobemide) selective MAO-A, i prefer tried a nonselective.
Deprenyl (Selegiline) selective MAO-B, more for parkison's disease

i think we've had more MAOI, but they've have been withdrawn from the market for hepatotoxicity or not enough effects like :

Iproclozide (Sursum)
Isoniazid (Laniazid, Nydrazid)
Safrazine (Safra)
Isocarboxazid (Marplan)
Minaprine (Cantor)
Toloxatone (Humoryl)

phenelzine and tranylcypromine has been never commercialized.

yes, i don't understand why, iproniazide is still used in France...

but i've the joy of leaving very near (40 miles) of the Belgium, and in Belgium we've phenelzine (Nardelzine) pfizer, and parnate in italia, but i don't speak italian and its too far for me, so this week i'm gonna try to get Nardelzine in Belgium, prescribe by a physician, i think i can have it if i explain my situation very detailled but i'll exagerate my situation in tell him that i've already tried some SSRI, SNRI, TeCas.

i've some questions, on the wiki page of phenelzine, i've read this :

_Notably, although phenelzine inhibits the breakdown of norepinephrine and epinephrine which in concept should lead to increased levels of these two respective neurotransmitters, it actually typically significantly decreases their overall activity with time via a complex interaction with octopamine. This is the cause of the side effect of orthostatic hypotension commonly seen with phenelzine and the other MAOIs. Importantly, it has been demonstrated that the antidepressant effects of serotonin are actually mediated through norepinephrine.[10] As a result, this depletion of norepinephrine and epinephrine may significantly inhibit the full therapeutic potential of phenelzine and the other MAOIs. For this reason, augmenting with an adrenergic agent such as a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (NRI) or releasing agent (NRA) in conjunction may be desirable, though strict professional supervision is advised to minimize the risk of a potentially dangerous drug interaction such as hypertensive crisis._

did i need a NRI such as reboxetine ?

how many time i must to wait between my total stop of amitriptyline and my first dose of phenelzine ? (if i obtain an Rx)

if i'm too sedate the first weeks, can i take modafinil ? it's a safe combo ?


----------



## euphoria

SSRIs may be pretty weak alone but "California Rocket Fuel" type combos have good evidence behind them:

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/163/9/1531



> RESULTS:*
> 
> Remission rates were not significantly different between the two treatment groups (6.9% for the tranylcypromine group and 13.7% for the venlafaxine plus mirtazapine group).* The mean daily dose at exit for tranylcypromine was 36.9 mg (SD=18.5); for venlafaxine, 210.3 mg (SD=95.2); and for mirtazapine, 35.7 mg (SD=17.6). *Tranylcypromine was associated with significantly less symptom reduction and greater attrition due to intolerance.
> 
> *Conclusions:
> 
> Remission rates were modest for both the tranylcypromine group and the extended-release venlafaxine plus mirtazapine group, and the rates were not statistically different between groups. The lower side effect burden, lack of dietary restrictions, and ease of use of venlafaxine and mirtazapine suggest that this combination may be preferred over tranylcypromine for patients with highly treatment-resistant depression who have not benefited adequately from several prior treatments.


I would try this before nonselective MAOIs - their side effects can be pretty debilitating. Mirtazapine could replace amitriptyline as a potent H1 antagonist sedative, without the anticholinergic ("dumb drug") effects of TCAs.



> did i need a NRI such as reboxetine ?
> 
> how many time i must to wait between my total stop of amitriptyline and my first dose of phenelzine ? (if i obtain an Rx)
> 
> if i'm too sedate the first weeks, can i take modafinil ? it's a safe combo ?


You should be careful combining NRIs with MAOIs, they could interact very badly. Modafinil also may interact very badly. It would be best to ask your doctor.


----------



## crayzyMed

The sedation by mirtazepine sounds alot worse then the side effects MAOI's could cause.


----------



## euphoria

The study above claims otherwise:



> The lower side effect burden, lack of dietary restrictions, and ease of use of venlafaxine and mirtazapine suggest that this combination may be preferred over tranylcypromine for patients with highly treatment-resistant depression who have not benefited adequately from several prior treatments.


For me, mirtazapine's sedation is non existent during the day, it's only at night. And if you used a high dose of Effexor, you could make use of its adrenergic effects to counter the sedation.


----------



## crayzyMed

Okay, yeah this combination does sound interesting.


----------



## euphoria

Also Dav779, other SSRI combos that are worth looking into (that are easy to get RXed) include SSRI + buspirone, SSRI + aripiprazole, SSRI + Wellbutrin.


----------



## crayzyMed

This also made me wonder how good combo's with MAOI's would be, a combo of phenelzine+mirtazepine would probably rape the venlafaxine mirtazapine combo in the ***.


----------



## euphoria

crayzyMed said:


> This also made me wonder how good combo's with MAOI's would be, a combo of phenelzine+mirtazepine would probably rape the venlafaxine mirtazapine combo in the ***.


Probably.


----------



## crayzyMed

In the end the MAOI's will allways win.


----------



## GSH

zendog78 said:


> *Nardil - The Gold Standard for treatment of Social Anxiety *


How much weight you gained?


----------



## Payn

help me please, Which option should I choose :

Parnate 10mg 50 tablets US$ 55.00
Nardil 15mg 100 tablets US$ 144.00


----------



## crayzyMed

Nardil


----------



## Brock2574

*Nardil drug interactions*

Hey I'm new here to this forum and starting next week I'll be starting Nardil. I convinced my new doctor (I recently moved a few months ago) to try me on it, even though she seemed very reluctant. This week my doctor has told me to get an EKG and also lower my dose lithium so it doesn't interact with Nardil. I was on Lexapro but have been off it for the past 17 days. Right now I'm just on a thyroid medication, lithium, and clonozapam.

I've read a lot about Nardil online and it's food interactions. However I can't find an exhaustive list of drugs that I should avoid on Nardil. All I know is I can't combine with other psychiatric medications like SSRIs that work on serotonin because I could develop serotonin syndrome. I've given up alcohol and illegal drugs 16 months ago for good so I'm not worried about that. All I know is that I've read that pretty much all cold, cough, and flu medicines are forbidden as well as herbal medications.

My question is to Zendog or whoever else, where can I find an extensive and comprensive list of of drugs (prescription, over the counter, herbal) that could have bad interactions with Nardil? Are there any cold medicine exceptions? What about over the counter pain relievers? And just to reiterate I have ABSOLUTELY no plans to do any illegal drugs or drink alcohol.

Thanks.


----------



## Payn

crayzyMed said:


> Nardil


Nardil will be probably much more expensive than Parnate(at a daily doses).


----------



## crayzyMed

Payn said:


> Nardil will be probably much more expensive than Parnate(at a daily doses).


But its also much more effective for social anxiety. You could start with parnate tough if your planning on trying nardil if that doesnt work out.


----------



## euphoria

I wouldn't rely on lists for interactions, it's better to understand how they work and know what pharmacological effects are bad with MAOIs.


----------



## Emile

Hey, I want to try Nardil but I'm frightened of doing any kind of damage to my brain or my emotions. I took SSRIs and they didn't agree with me. Has anyone felt _different_ after taking a MAOI and stopping or lowering the dose, or have the side effects persised after stopping? If I could have some kind of anecdotal evidence for/against it would help me make a decision


----------



## Brock2574

*Over the counter pain-relievers and Nardil*

Does anybody know if there are any safe over the counter pain relievers to take with Nardil? (e.g. ibuprofen (Advil), naproxen sodium (Aleve), acetometaphin (Tylenol), aspirin)


----------



## zendog78

> Modafinil also may interact very badly. It would be best to ask your doctor.


I have taken modafinil with nardil a heap of times, it really speeds you up and gets you going but has a big comedown as well. Good for a special occasion, thats it.



> Hey, I want to try Nardil but I'm frightened of doing any kind of damage to my brain or my emotions. I took SSRIs and they didn't agree with me. Has anyone felt _different_ after taking a MAOI and stopping or lowering the dose, or have the side effects persised after stopping? If I could have some kind of anecdotal evidence for/against it would help me make a decision


This is my third time back on it, I stopped it the other times because of the side effects, particually not being able to cum or piss.
I think that every time I used it and then stopped it I came away a little bit better. Nardil just makes you feel like you when its working properly
When it you start it or push the dose too high too soon you end up like this guy

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050803/msgs/537730.html

Classic hypomania. I was like that at first, gee it felt good. So many ideas so much confidence but the side effects made me lower the dose to 3 a day. I don't feel anywhere near as good but then again I don't think it is actually right or normal to feel so good.
Life and going to work every day is a drag, its meant to be a bit of a drag, your not meant to be bouncing off the walls with joy.
I can get to work, put in big hours, be social, my moods ok and my anxiety is controled at 3 tablets per day. It could be greedy to ask for more


----------



## flyinsoup

I'm still on the fence about trying either Nardil or Parnate (although I'm thinking more towards the latter given the lower frequency of side-effects apparently associated w/ it). If one of these drugs does work for me and I find the side-effects are tolerable, will the drug keep working or will it one day just stop? Does anyone know?


----------



## zendog78

Well
Here I am, after starting this thread however long ago, I am here to say that Nardil is really bumming me out.
Its so frustrating!! It lets me get to work and have social relations but it won't allow me to have intimate relations.
Do have any sexual funtion at all I have to have the dose so low that I feel asocial. I can't really drink without side effects and the weight gain is realy disturbing. I have always kept a close eye on my weight but I am finding that I am slowly and steadily packing it on. 
The most I ever let myself get to without doing something about it off Nardil was 78kg and when I put my mind to it I lost weight easily.
Now I am at 85kg. I never drink soft drinks, have minimal alcohol and no junk food. But I think I am eating bigger servings subconciously and more carbs.
I am also lethargic and have exercise intolerence. 
Sh-it!
I really want to find a partner but I have this big beer belly. I fart the most stinking farts all the time and take about 4 sh-its a day...or I am constipated. 
Really bummed, I need this drug to stay sane. But what do i do?
I tried parnate before... maybe I could give it another go. It was the only other thing that had any effect.
Either that or see I I can get it augmented with dexamphetamine.
This really sucks


----------



## mike8803

@zendog78

On a scale of 1-10 on Nardil, what you rate your improvement of Social Anxiety?


----------



## zk7

Hi,

Zendog, i been seeing you touting Nardil as the best med for social anxiety and it looks like you been on it for less than 30 days and your complaining about your Beer Belly. Your not even supposed to drink beer on a MAOI and secondly, what does the beer belly have to do with nardil? Go cardio, exercise it off, it's not the Med, you cant gain weight without eating more and if you do look thicker and bigger and fuller, its probably from water retention or slight hypertension which does make you look fuller, bigger and heavier, so its not really fat gain. Best bet is to cardio it off, or maybe Try a Beta Blocker With Nardil to limit the water retention, or blood pressure. But that Beer belly of yours is the reason why your complaining about nardil, makes 0 sense what so ever.

also sex drive wise, nardil hasn't had any impact on my sex drive, its working just fine, not reduced, it caused a bit of limp dick, but it works just fine, all systems are operational on any dose. I find nardil so far (2 weeks in) to not really have much an effect on anxiety or motivation, maybe more so motivation than anxiety, not sure. Though i also take, Clonazepam with nardil, to fend off anxiety/blood pressure problems and Anxiety issues.

Also, taking a dump 4 times you say your doing? I found that I take 1-2 dumps a day, every day, which in the past wasn't the case, so i dont find that a big deal, though people, say they got constipation i dontknow how you can get constipated, after taking nardil , i need to go to bathroom fast!, also at higher doses, i find constipation is more effected, but even at higher doses, i take dumps every other day. So far clonazepam is the Gold Standard for Social Anxiety but it's also the Gold Standard at making you useless and Not making you crave social interaction, also can cause some depression at higher doses, I'm only on (0.5mg 3 X a day). But anyways, i'm only on week 2 of Nardil and so far it's better tolerated than the crappy SSRI/SNRI or the TCA Anafranil which caused mass sedation and not much of anything else and mega impotence on anafranil.


----------



## jim_morrison

"Beer belly" is just a common expression used in australia for having a pot belly, and does not necessarily denote that he's been drinking beer, especially since he stated "minimal alcohol intake".


----------



## zk7

Hi,

Where's Zendog? I'm curious what he's going to do. Zendog, if your worried about weight gain, it's probably just Water Retention/ hypertension inflated fake weight gain, And Simply taking a Mild BP Med , a Beta Blocker, Or a Diuretic , Can Resolve Both the Weight Gain and The Hypertension at same time, Ask Your Doctor. Also, Regarding Sexual Side Effects, Ever thought of Asking Your doctor If you cna Add Selegine Low Dose with Nardil? Selegine is known to boost Sex drive and cause uncontrollable erections, So selegine may Be good augment to boost sex drive and since its a MAOI as well, doesnt seem contradicted, with another MAOI, MAOI+MAOI= OKAY MAOI? Right? Or so i think, i may be mistkae, but aske your doc if Adding Selegine or that Selegine Patch Crap they invented, can help, for the libido, sounds good. And Selegine patch is even safer than the Older MAO, theres no or low dietary requirements, at lower doses and stuff.

nway let me know.


----------



## Brock2574

*Bacon*

Is Bacon okay to eat while on Nardil?


----------



## mike8803

zendog78 said:


> Well
> Here I am, after starting this thread however long ago, I am here to say that Nardil is really bumming me out.
> Its so frustrating!! It lets me get to work and have social relations but it won't allow me to have intimate relations.
> Do have any sexual funtion at all I have to have the dose so low that I feel asocial. I can't really drink without side effects and the weight gain is realy disturbing. I have always kept a close eye on my weight but I am finding that I am slowly and steadily packing it on.
> The most I ever let myself get to without doing something about it off Nardil was 78kg and when I put my mind to it I lost weight easily.
> Now I am at 85kg. I never drink soft drinks, have minimal alcohol and no junk food. But I think I am eating bigger servings subconciously and more carbs.
> I am also lethargic and have exercise intolerence.
> Sh-it!
> I really want to find a partner but I have this big beer belly. I fart the most stinking farts all the time and take about 4 sh-its a day...or I am constipated.
> Really bummed, I need this drug to stay sane. But what do i do?
> I tried parnate before... maybe I could give it another go. It was the only other thing that had any effect.
> Either that or see I I can get it augmented with dexamphetamine.
> This really sucks


rofl @ "i fart the most stinking farts.."


----------



## euphoria

> I fart the most stinking farts all the time


They'd have to be bad to be comparable in repulsiveness to my farts on inositol, and on taurine. Oh. My. God. The smell was so bad, and it happened all the time as they built up gas for some reason. There's no way I could be functional with the constant need to let off nauseating fumes.


----------



## zendog78

> Hi,
> 
> Where's Zendog? I'm curious what he's going to do. Zendog, if your worried about weight gain, it's probably just Water Retention/ hypertension inflated fake weight gain, And Simply taking a Mild BP Med , a Beta Blocker, Or a Diuretic , Can Resolve Both the Weight Gain and The Hypertension at same time, Ask Your Doctor. Also, Regarding Sexual Side Effects, Ever thought of Asking Your doctor If you cna Add Selegine Low Dose with Nardil? Selegine is known to boost Sex drive and cause uncontrollable erections, So selegine may Be good augment to boost sex drive and since its a MAOI as well, doesnt seem contradicted, with another MAOI, MAOI+MAOI= OKAY MAOI? Right? Or so i think, i may be mistkae, but aske your doc if Adding Selegine or that Selegine Patch Crap they invented, can help, for the libido, sounds good. And Selegine patch is even safer than the Older MAO, theres no or low dietary requirements, at lower doses and stuff.
> 
> nway let me know.


Gee Zk7, your sounding very hypomanic, the first few weeks are fun huh? I was like that also.
Firstly, the link between an increase in central obesity (thats adipose tissue not fluid retention) and antidepressants (nardil in particular) is well documented, google is your friend dude, you should research before making sweeping generalizations.



> The effect of antidepressants on glucose homeostasis and insulin sensitivity: synthesis and mechanisms.
> McIntyre RS, Soczynska JK, Konarski JZ, Kennedy SH.
> 
> University of Toronto, Department of Psychiatry, University Health Network, 399 Bathurst Street, Toronto, ON, M5T 2S8, Canada. [email protected]
> OBJECTIVE: To synthesise results from investigations reporting on the effect of antidepressants on glucose-insulin homeostasis. METHOD: The authors conducted a MedLine search of all English language articles from 1966 to October 2005 using the keywords: bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, diabetes mellitus, glucose homeostasis, and the name of each antidepressant that has been indicated for major depression in Canada and the US up to October 2005. The search was supplemented with a manual review of relevant references. Both preclinical and clinical investigations were reviewed. RESULTS: Some serotonergic antidepressants (e.g., fluoxetine) reduce hyperglycaemia, normalise glucose homeostasis and increase insulin sensitivity, whereas some noradrenergic antidepressants (e.g., desipramine) exert opposite effects. Dual-mechanism antidepressants (e.g., duloxetine and venlafaxine) do not appear to disrupt glucose homeostatic dynamics, whereas nonselective hydrazine monoamine oxidase inhibitors (e.g., phenelzine) are associated with hypoglycaemia and an increased glucose disposal rate. CONCLUSION: Some antidepressants exert a clinically significant effect on metabolism relevant to both therapeutic outcome and adverse events.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16370964?log$=activity

When people have true fluid retention, the first place you see it is in the extremities. I don't have that. What I do have though is abdominal distention. I have always been a little bloated but it is way worse on Nardil. I am starting to think that it may be a gluten reaction. I have long thought myself gluten sensitive and now that I get these massive carb cravings and eat more breakfast cerial and bread I rekon I am getting a more extreem reaction. 
There is no doubt a contribution made by my largely sedentary lifestyle...and working night shifts. But the amount of weight I have gained is unusual and excessive. 
When I started Nardil I was running to the loo for big amphetamine like ****s, and I lost weight and had heaps of energy. Trust me, it doesn't last.
As for a beta blocker, I already have postural hypotension, I wouldn't like to add a beta blocker to the list. My blood pressure would fall through my boots.
Tell me about your sexual funtioning in another month dude. I am more horny than ever but its so hard to cum.
Anyway, I don't want to start some flaming thing. Peace

To tell you the truth I am bummed out about this weight gain. I am an ex body builder and fitness instructor and have always looked after myself at least so much that I don't get obese. But thats what I am now. 86kg, my ideal is about 75kg and all the gain is in the stomach so it really shows and looks unsightly.
The drive that got me out training and made me push hard is gone now. It was almost a masochistic thing, like punishing myself. I don't have that in me anymore and my energy levels are lower AND I am working 10.5 hour night shifts 5 nights per week.... so it is really hard.
Anyway, thats my update. I love nardil so much for the effect it has on my anxiety and depression. I am a new person, I am the real me. I am not scared of anything socially anymore. Nothing!
But these side effects... I will have to find a way to work around them. I can't stop Nardil, it is just too good.


----------



## mike8803

I start nardil in 2 weeks, 15 mg then 30 mg after a bit, might eventually go back to 45 mg but we'll see how it goes, ill keep you updated.


----------



## zendog78

Ok!
When I was 84kg I told myself that if I hit 85kg I would exercise, I got on the scales and I had skipped 85 and went straight to 86! 
Anyway, after that last post I decided to stop moaning and start doing something about it. I have been hitting the gym big time, lots of cardio and weights. I feel really good! The fatigue thing I beat with caffeine tablets which give me a real kick in arse and gets me there and gets me working hard! I also have got serious about my diet, still sneak the occasional bad thing but overall I am really good.
After only 3 days at the gym people were saying I look more healthy and one said I look bigger, all without prompting. I am pretty lucky because having been trained before, the muscle memory is there and it comes back very quickly.
I have also cut out gluten and casein and the bloating seems to have largely gone away.
Will keep you posted


----------



## mike8803

Zendog, how is nardil out for you in regards to your social phobia?


----------



## zendog78

Great, I feel well and depression and anxiety free. It is like a distant memory, almost another life that I remember feeling so bad I couldn't do anything. 
Side effects are much better, can funtion sexually on the lower dose, no hypotensive episodes. Biggest thing is still constipation and farting but even that has improved, maybe the exercise did the trick.


----------



## zendog78

I should add that I am using a lot of caffeine tablets. Very helpful for the fatigue and to give me a boost before exercise. I also chew a lot of nicotine gum which augments the Nardil nicely. Insomnia is a problem but it has been all my life. Benzo's never worked very well and left me groggy the next day. I take 3mg of melatonin and between 15mg - 20mg of quetiapine which knocks me out and gives me a great sleep


----------



## mike8803

If you take Nardil alone, you wont have any energy? So how can you be pro social if your energy is drained?


----------



## zendog78

I am an ex stimulat addict and Nardil and nicotine press all the right buttons for me. I would probably be fine on nardil alone.

Damn weight gain, still putting it on even though I have been training heaps and following a pretty rigid diet. I think the quetiapine, even at such a low dose is adding to it.
So frustrating!
I stopped chewing nicotine gum and switched to these sublingual tablets. Already I am farting way less. I think that could have been the cause.
I have been messing about with the dose of nardil of late, down to 3 or even 2 per day. I have definetly deterierated in my mental state. The anxiety and depression have come back somewhat and I have found myself getting angry and burning up over interpersonal slights again.
The reason I have been dropping it back is because of the weight gain and because of frustration with sexual funtion.
I can't have sex with a condom, I feel nothing. I have taken risks with my sexual health of late and I know I can't go on doing that.
So frustrating.
I think I will crank the dose back up to 4 per day, maybe 5 and see if I can get past the anorgasmia.


----------



## jim_morrison

So your on quetiapine too? Because quetiapine in it's own rite can cause weight gain, fatigue, and anticholinergic side effects such as urinary retention. In some cases it can also cause sexual dysfunction. Have you ever had a period of time where you were taking nardil alone for comparrison?


----------



## meyaj

Too low a dose will have almost no benefit, the dose-response curve for the drug is extremely non-linear.


----------



## Arisa1536

jim_morrison said:


> So your on quetiapine too? Because quetiapine in it's own rite can cause weight gain, fatigue, and anticholinergic side effects such as urinary retention. In some cases it can also cause sexual dysfunction. Have you ever had a period of time where you were taking nardil alone for comparrison?


Amen to that, to be honest this could be the main cause of the weight gain
Although Tricyclics are known for weight gain in _some_ people, its much much much more common with Quetiapine/seroquel and to tell you the truth i have not met anyone who has not put on weight from it, its a strong antipsychotic, i mean i went from 25MG to 100MG and even with the 25MG little tablet i was putting on weight. 
I do not know much about MAOI's and weight gain. i thought given the food restrictions, that nardil and parnate and other MAOI's would reduce weight, but it appears not to be the case

i have to ask, do you really need the seroquel? 
Nardil and a decent benzodiazepine perhaps instead?

Meyaj, i did not know that about nardil, so you need a high dose for it to work? i guess thats similar to most standard Antidepressants, well it is with effexor

i have not taken nardil nor do i intend to, but you might find that at least your weight will stabalize if you come off those Seroquel


----------



## meyaj

Arisa1536 said:


> Amen to that, to be honest this could be the main cause of the weight gain
> Although Tricyclics are known for weight gain in _some_ people, its much much much more common with Quetiapine/seroquel and to tell you the truth i have not met anyone who has not put on weight from it, its a strong antipsychotic, i mean i went from 25MG to 100MG and even with the 25MG little tablet i was putting on weight.
> I do not know much about MAOI's and weight gain. i thought given the food restrictions, that nardil and parnate and other MAOI's would reduce weight, but it appears not to be the case
> 
> i have to ask, do you really need the seroquel?
> Nardil and a decent benzodiazepine perhaps instead?
> 
> Meyaj, i did not know that about nardil, so you need a high dose for it to work? i guess thats similar to most standard Antidepressants, well it is with effexor
> 
> i have not taken nardil nor do i intend to, but you might find that at least your weight will stabalize if you come off those Seroquel


Effexor is kind of unique. It CAN work at lower doses, but any lower than roughly 150mg and it acts more like an SSRI, not an SNRI, and if you're just going to use it as an SSRI, what's the point of taking it? But otherwise, the response is still fairly linear, with a steeper response once the norepinephrine reuptake kicks in, and a higher dose is just more effective

With MAOIs, ideally you want to start blocking enough of the MAO enzymes that it starts becoming a bottleneck. Generally I think the therapeutic target is around 85% inhibition. So if you're taking half that dose that would be required to reach the target, you may be only inhibiting about 40% and that could very well mean that there's still enough of the enzymes remaining to break down the monoamines at a relatively normal rate. You need to hit that bottleneck for them to REALLY start adding up and increasing, which is why too low of a dose is likely going to be useless, so even a small increase or decrease in dose can have a big effect.


----------



## jim_morrison

meyaj said:


> Effexor is kind of unique. It CAN work at lower doses, but any lower than roughly 150mg and it acts more like an SSRI, not an SNRI, and if you're just going to use it as an SSRI, what's the point of taking it? But otherwise, the response is still fairly linear, with a steeper response once the norepinephrine reuptake kicks in, and a higher dose is just more effective.


That's true, although at 300> mg, there are some claims that effexor starts to block the dopamine pump to an extent too, which if correct would push the ascending dose response even further.


----------



## zendog78

I have cut out the quetiapine for about a week now. I have been on nardil a couple of times before and it always made me stack on weight but this time has been particually severe. I think it is the quetiapine making it worse. Now I just take a higher dose of Melatonin and find that is working well.
I have been training hard and have also started doing a martial arts class 2 -3 times a week. I have also started a strict calorie controlled diet of 8000kj per day, cut out all the crap.
No soft drink, sweets, none it.
Here is an example of what I ate today.

Breakfast 2/3 cup oats 950kj
Half cup cerial - 200kj
Half cup soy 250kj
One banana 400kj
Blueberries 80kj
1 scoop protein powder 500kj

_Total 2450kj_

9.30 pm

5 rice cakes 500kj
1 tomato 85kj
Half can asparagus 200kj
Small handful almonds 700kj
1 kiwifruit 150kj

_Total 1650kj _


Meal 3

Rice - 750kj
Spinach - 70kj
Microwaved Vegies - 400kj 
Almonds - 100kj

_Total 1320kj_

Meal 4

Tuna - 500kj
Avacado - 600kj
Beetroot - 200kj
5 rice cakes 500kj
Spinch leaves - 70kj

_Total - 1870kj_


Dinner/supper

One cup of breakfast cerial - 400kj
1 scoop protein powder 500kj 
Half cup light soy milk - 200kj
Blueberries 80kj

*Day Total 7500kj (approx)*

I am really starting to see results after only 2 weeks. Looking much much better, belly has gone down a lot and I have packed on muscle. Feeling much better and stronger too. 

The official dosing guidelines for Nardil say to increase it rapidly to between 60 - 90mg per day maintaining that dose for at least 4 weeks and then to reduce it slowly to as little as 1 tablet every other day.
I don't know anyone who has reduced to less than 3 per day.


----------



## meyaj

zendog78 said:


> I have cut out the quetiapine for about a week now. I have been on nardil a couple of times before and it always made me stack on weight but this time has been particually severe. I think it is the quetiapine making it worse. Now I just take a higher dose of Melatonin and find that is working well.
> I have been training hard and have also started doing a martial arts class 2 -3 times a week. I have also started a strict calorie controlled diet of 8000kj per day, cut out all the crap.
> No soft drink, sweets, none it.
> Here is an example of what I ate today.
> 
> Breakfast 2/3 cup oats 950kj
> Half cup cerial - 200kj
> Half cup soy 250kj
> One banana 400kj
> Blueberries 80kj
> 1 scoop protein powder 500kj
> 
> _Total 2450kj_
> 
> 9.30 pm
> 
> 5 rice cakes 500kj
> 1 tomato 85kj
> Half can asparagus 200kj
> Small handful almonds 700kj
> 1 kiwifruit 150kj
> 
> _Total 1650kj _
> 
> 
> Meal 3
> 
> Rice - 750kj
> Spinach - 70kj
> Microwaved Vegies - 400kj
> Almonds - 100kj
> 
> _Total 1320kj_
> 
> Meal 4
> 
> Tuna - 500kj
> Avacado - 600kj
> Beetroot - 200kj
> 5 rice cakes 500kj
> Spinch leaves - 70kj
> 
> _Total - 1870kj_
> 
> 
> Dinner/supper
> 
> One cup of breakfast cerial - 400kj
> 1 scoop protein powder 500kj
> Half cup light soy milk - 200kj
> Blueberries 80kj
> 
> *Day Total 7500kj (approx)*
> 
> I am really starting to see results after only 2 weeks. Looking much much better, belly has gone down a lot and I have packed on muscle. Feeling much better and stronger too.
> 
> The official dosing guidelines for Nardil say to increase it rapidly to between 60 - 90mg per day maintaining that dose for at least 4 weeks and then to reduce it slowly to as little as 1 tablet every other day.
> I don't know anyone who has reduced to less than 3 per day.


Are you a nighttime snacker, by any chance? Studies have shown that anxious people who tend to eat a lot at night generally have low levels of melatonin, which is why I ask.


----------



## mike8803

Everyone is different, I gained 20 lbs on zoloft in 3 months, but I also eat fast food every day, but have perfect blood pressure.
Just gotta excerise it out man, and even if you do, you still might gain alot of weight
Just curious though

Besides the weight gain, how is nardil working for you socially Zendog?


----------



## jim_morrison

zendog78 said:


> I have cut out the quetiapine for about a week now. I have been on nardil a couple of times before and it always made me stack on weight but this time has been particually severe. I think it is the quetiapine making it worse. Now I just take a higher dose of Melatonin and find that is working well.
> I have been training hard and have also started doing a martial arts class 2 -3 times a week. I have also started a strict calorie controlled diet of 8000kj per day, cut out all the crap.
> No soft drink, sweets, none it.
> 
> I am really starting to see results after only 2 weeks. Looking much much better, belly has gone down a lot and I have packed on muscle. Feeling much better and stronger too.


Great to hear


----------



## saer1212

*Help Needed*

Hi, I used nardil about 15 years or more. At first, it was like a miracle come thrue. I began going to college, gave formal speechs, was asking girls out. All of sudden this feeling stoped. I misunderstood and thought the medication was not working and stopped. I only know now I misunderstood the drug.

Can someone tell me if the new nardil gives the same euphoria and then settles in? What dosage did ya take?

Thanks a lot


----------



## extend

saer1212 said:


> Hi, I used nardil about 15 years or more. At first, it was like a miracle come thrue. I began going to college, gave formal speechs, was asking girls out. All of sudden this feeling stoped. I misunderstood and thought the medication was not working and stopped. I only know now I misunderstood the drug.
> 
> Can someone tell me if the new nardil gives the same euphoria and then settles in? What dosage did ya take?
> 
> Thanks a lot


Could you give more info, like what dosage you were using. Also, did it randomly stop working or was there some change in your life or the medication. I don't know the answer to your question but it would probably help others figure out the reason.


----------



## mike8803

http://www.pfizer.com/files/products/uspi_nardil.pdf


----------



## zendog78

Never been a night time snacker but had massive problems with insomnia ever since childhood. Melatonin is awesome.

What is interesting about exercise and weight loss is that it makes very little difference compared to watching your diet.
As a qualified fitness instructor and an ex exercise freak this surprised me but it is true. It takes a lot of exercise to burn 1000kj, where as restricting your diet by 1000kj is relativly easy.
Exercise is still important for fat loss, especially weights as it raises your resting metabolic rate (and generally makes you look better overweight or not) And redistributes fat into the muscle tissue to use as energy.
I havn't actually lost any weight as far as KJ goes but I have definetly lost fat, muscle weighing 3 times as much as fat is hiding the actually fat loss on the scales.
Count your kj and I mean everything for a while, you will be stunned at what you take in. Nardil makes you fat by giving you slight hypoglycymia which leaves you craving carbs to raise your blood sugar.
If you can do it, several smaller meals rather than 3 big ones will help stabilize your BSL. Increased protein and low glycemic index carbs do the same.
But yeah, watch those kj and you can lose weight.
Socially Nardil is still working. Some days I take 3, others I take 4 tablets a day. I know I should stick to one dose but I don't. Sometimes I feel overstimulated and don't want the extra dose so I don't take it.


----------



## jim_morrison

I take it when you say "muscle weighs 3 times as much as fat" your referring to density and not actually weight, since muscle is more dense than fat, but 1 kg = 1 kg; be it muscle, fat, tar or feathers. Muscle is just more dense than fat so it takes up less surface area. Muscle being denser, since if you were to compare by volume (as in the amount of 3 dimensional space occupied by an object) the amount of muscle it would take to occupy the same space as that same weight in fat would have a greater density.


----------



## Emile

Do MAOIs help with concentration/focus?


----------



## zendog78

Right you are Jim, my bad 


I found Nardil helped my focus by improving my anxiety but sometimes makes me a little spacey Emile


----------



## mike8803

Zendog,

what was your starting dose?


----------



## Arisa1536

zendog78 said:


> What is interesting about exercise and weight loss is that it makes very little difference compared to watching your diet.


Not strictly true
i eat what i want but since i have been going to the gym four times a week the weight has been coming off each month very steadily, usually at around 600 Grams to 2 kilos per month.
Okay so it took me a year to lose ten kilos but i would rather it be that way than lose all my weight in a few weeks like i did on a previous diet and then gain it twice as much when i finished the diet

Diets do not work, you cannot stay on a strict regime for the rest of your life
you have to let yourself enjoy a bit of junk food every now and then or you will create for yourself an eating disorder, i know i have been there its not fun

anyway back to nardil
if it does not seem to help you lose weight then i would not want to try them but thats me personally, also why are they the gold standard???

Effexor has worked wonders for me, i would say its just as good if not better because i lost weight on them :boogie


----------



## zendog78

Untrue

Diets do work, crash diets do not work. If you lower you kj intake too much you get the situation where the body is canibalising musle tissue to maintain adiquate glucose levels. 
The maximum you can reduce your kj (not calorie) intake without this happening is about 4000kj a day.
So for me, my kj intake to maintain weight is about 11,500 so I have reduced to around 7500kj.
The goal is to maintain stable blood glucose levels whilst you are restricting your kj intake which means eating low GI carbohydrates and slightly increasing your protein and health fat levels to maintain muscle tissue.

What people who "diet" in the conventional sence of the word end up with is the situation where they have drastically reduced the kj intake which has resulted in a loss of muscle tissue. Muscle tissue is what keeps your basal metabolic rate high. 
So they lose the weight and go back to normal eating and put the weight on twice as quick because they have reduced their metabolic rate by losing so much muscle which results is their body using less energy.

Sensible kj restriction combined with resistence training to keep muscle tissue results in quite a fast weight loss. When you reach your desired weight you increase your kj intake to maintence levels.

So for me, I am on a 7000 - 8000kj restriction (this is pushing it but I am being a fanatic and monitering my blood sugar levels ) which I will increase to about 11,000kj once I reach my target weight.

I am also doing a few days of weight training a week to keep the stimulis up to my muscles.
I really should be on about 8500kj with the amount of activity I am doing but I am heading to europe for the summer and want to look good and fortunetly because I have weight trained in the past, I just have to look at weights to put on muscle.
So if I lose some while I am cutting the excess fat I know I can put it on again very quickly, especially once I start eating more.

Do your research, especially read studies on www.pubmed.com


----------



## zendog78

3 per day was my starting dose Mike. Nardil being the "gold standard" is a term that is floating around the web a lot. I guess it is because it is the single most effective drug for the condition. It works for nearly everyone.

You don't need to put weight on with Nardil, you just have to be mindfull that it does increase feelings of hunger and reduce the sensation of being saited and eat with that in mind.
As long as you keep your kj intake at the same level as you did before you won't gain weight. People think (including me) that they were not eating more, but in reality it only takes a slightly larger serving in every meal and maybe the extra snack or soft drink to slowly (or quickly) add up and you put on weight.
You can still eat what you want, just watch the serving sizes.

For others info, after doing a lot of research I am supplimenting with the following:

Green tea - about 6 cups per day. - Stabilises your glucose levels and increases fat mobilisation. Caffine increases your basal metabolic rate. Helps with hydration which also assists in removing keytones from the body.
Vitamin C and Calcium - Studies indicate it helps mobilize fat during exercise
Fish oil - Some studies have shown it assists in weight loss/maintenece as well as being an antidepressant. I take some whenever I have a carb heavy meal to keep my fat/car/protein intake balanced - again documented in having a pro weight loss effect.

Protein powder at breakfast and late at night as well as before and after exercise - Helps maintain and build muscle tissue and also takes 3 times as much energy to break down as carbs do. But don't go overboard or it will be converted to fat. You need to count it in your daily kj intake.

Psyllium Husk powder - Helps make you feel more full as well as helping with constipation.

Chromium - Some research indicates it helps stabilize blood sugar levels...some doesn't, its cheap, I take it anyway.

Vitamin B6/magnesium I take a half dose of this because Nardil neutalises B6

I have powdered sports drink I use during intense cardio but I mix it at half strength. The sugar preserves your muscle tissue and lets you train harder.

Last but not least - Nicotine lozengers. To be honest I take these because I am addicted to them but they do have an appitite reducing effect and raise your basal metabolic rate. Also has an antidepressant effect and Maoi's potentiate its effect.

Exercise:
intensive martial arts training 2-3 times a week for 80 minutes
One set to failure weight training twice a week
I take a walk/jog every morning to get my metabolism going
I have a sedintary job so I try to get up and stretch and have a little walk every hour.

Most of these vitamins and suppliments are fine at half the reccomended dose. No need to go overboard.

I posted my typical diet on the last page of this thread. Once I got started I have actually found it pretty easy. I am right at the limit of the maximum ammount of weight I can lose without eating up my muscles and I am fighting these feeling of guilt that I am not pushing myself harder. I am never really hungry and I am eating great healthy tasty food.
I think I must have been eating about 12000 - 13000 kj a day to put on this weight, I am back to a little under 8000kj and am finding it a snap!

You don't need to go to the lengths I have to lose weight
Work out your daily kj intake requirements (there are plenty of calculators on the net) and reduce by 2000kj a day and try to be a bit more active. Eat pretty much whatever you want (within reason) as long as you keep to your daily kj goal. The weight will fall away.


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## jim_morrison

Arisa1536 said:


> anyway back to nardil
> if it does not seem to help you lose weight then i would not want to try them but thats me personally, also why are they the gold standard???


I think because it hits a bit of everything - serotonin, dopamine, GABA, norepinepherine etc, so as a single agent it would be considered highly effective.


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## mike8803

jim_morrison said:


> I think because it hits a bit of everything - serotonin, dopamine, GABA, norepinepherine etc, so as a single agent it would be considered highly effective.


+1


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## meyaj

Arisa1536 said:


> anyway back to nardil
> if it does not seem to help you lose weight then i would not want to try them but thats me personally, also why are they the gold standard???
> 
> Effexor has worked wonders for me, i would say its just as good if not better because i lost weight on them :boogie


And people have been helped by buspirone and lost weight on it too. The thing is, The "gold standard" means something, that it is widely medically accepted to be the most effective (along with other MAOIs, and not just for SA) drug product(s) on the market. I'm happy that Effexor worked for you, and wished it so worked so well in everyone, but the truth is a single experience has absolutely no bearing on the efficacy of the drug as a whole, so for the same reason that the person who had success with buspirone has no claim to calling their drug the gold standard by any means.

No matter what you had personal success with, it doesn't change it in the slightest. Not to mention that weight gain/loss is hardly a measure by this they use to establish antidepressant efficacy, although its certainly something to keep in mind when making your own decision.


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## zendog78

Weighed myself today. 84.5 kg!  Thats from a high of 87kg a couple of weeks ago. I look like I have lost way more because I have got rid of the bloating as well.
Only a couple of weeks ago I could sit in a chair and read a book on my belly, now its all but gone, I must have been so bloated up. Nicotine gum, coffee and milk and wheat products I blame for that.
Also I am looking very defined muscularly and am way less out of breath from climbing stairs.
I'm not gloating, just wanted to record my progress for myself and for anyone else who is having trouble kicking the kilos


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## KindredSpirit

Could someone please tell me what kj stands for?


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## ShyViolet

KindredSpirit said:


> Could someone please tell me what kj stands for?


kilojoule - a unit equivalent to 0.239 nutritional calories


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## zendog78

Hehe, I love confusing metrically impared americans after me having to stuff around converting everything from imperial mesurments for so long. Now its your turn


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## meyaj

zendog78 said:


> Hehe, I love confusing metrically impared americans after me having to stuff around converting everything from imperial mesurments for so long. Now its your turn


look it up, calories are a metric measurement too, lol

What we think of calories in food are even technically kilocalories (or more accurately kilogram calories).

The difference, I believe, is that joules are considered an SI measurement whereas calories are not. When a "calorie" can differ based on a gram, a kilogram, or whatever, it's not hard to see why.


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## Giovanna

I was on Nardil for 8 months. I felt more like myself, more real, then I have on any medication. 

The side effects were awful for me. It took months to get past some of them, and eventually they were too much for me. Especially the weight gain. I have always had a great diet, no sugar, no wheat, no diary, I eat lots of protein, etc, exercised. Nothing stopped that weight gain - I didn't change my diet while on Nardil. I gained most of it in my belly. That was the thing about Nardil for me, I felt more me in the inside, but I felt like it altered my appearance so much I didn't feel like me on the outside. 

Switched to very low dose Parnate. Much less side effects, but, I don't like it as much as Nardil. Reminds me more of how I felt on ssri. Agitated and emotionally flat. But I'm still on a low dosage so haven't given it a fair shake yet.


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## mike8803

Nardil is pretty good huh, ya the weight gain sucks, but I just go to the gym everday. yes, it even helps me get to the gym.

Nardil for the win.


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## podizzle

yeah weight gain isnt always a bad thing for us hard gainers


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## zendog78

Coming from someone who is quite vain and has always taken care of their apperence.. I am coming to accept that I may be larger on Nardil.

I think you can have a belly and still be hot. I hit the gym and work out heaps and I look fit and healthy, I have a big muscular chest and good arms. 
Nardil is keeping me active and if your extreamly fit, the belly isn't going to affect your health anywhere near as much.
I am one point above the healthy bmi into overweight. This is about 7kg more than I was pre Nardil.
I am still working at getting my diet right. Its such a fine line between eating enough that your body boesn't catabolize muscles and too much so that you gain weight.
I was at 7000kj a day and did lose 1.5kg but put it right back on again over a few days when I slipped just a little. That suggests to me it was too low.
Now I am at 10,000kj a day and working out heaps. Its not getting worse and in reality it has likely come down as I have put on muscle.

If your struggling with constipation like I was try *Normacol* (sterculia) it forms bulk in the bowel instead of the stomach and intestines like *Metamucil* (Psyllium powder). I\A dose in the morning and I am almost back to normal bowel movements from having to use supposetries. 
Also, coffee makes you fart big time. As soon as I cut it out the flatulence largely goes away.

I still hope to lose some weight and I think it is doable with enough effort.
Nardil gives me the focus to attack my fitness. I am doing Krav Maga 5 nights a week and loving it. I could never have done this without Nardil. I am heading to the UK in a few weeks to see friends, bummed out that I can't get into the coke and speed a bit while I am there but I would rather my health.
Nardil = Big winner


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## meyaj

zendog78 said:


> If your struggling with constipation like I was try *Normacol* (sterculia) it forms bulk in the bowel instead of the stomach and intestines like *Metamucil* (Psyllium powder).


Your own link seems to imply otherwise, that it forms bulk on contact with fluid. Looking more closely, the sterculia gum seems to have a composition very similar to that found in Psyllium's mucilage.

Though as far as constipation goes, since I have been on high dose opioids for months, the constipation gets pretty bad. I started to take bulk-forming laxatives but learned that they can actually be dangerous and cause obstruction because of the slowed bowel motility. I don't know how Nardil exerts a constipatory effect though.

Lactulose is an osmotic laxative that is very effective and safe in such cases. It's an indigestible sugar that bacteria in the bowel are able to (a prebiotic of sorts), and the resulting products basically draw water out of the intestine wall and into the stool. Unlike most laxatives/stool softeners though (bulk-formers excluded), it can be safely taken on an indefinite basis. Although there are benefits to getting more fiber beyond passing crap


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## Arisa1536

meyaj said:


> Your own link seems to imply otherwise, that it forms bulk on contact with fluid. Looking more closely, the sterculia gum seems to have a composition very similar to that found in Psyllium's mucilage.
> 
> Though as far as constipation goes, since I have been on high dose opioids for months, the constipation gets pretty bad. I started to take bulk-forming laxatives but learned that they can actually be dangerous and cause obstruction because of the slowed bowel motility. I don't know how Nardil exerts a constipatory effect though.
> 
> Lactulose is an osmotic laxative that is very effective and safe in such cases. It's an indigestible sugar that bacteria in the bowel are able to (a prebiotic of sorts), and the resulting products basically draw water out of the intestine wall and into the stool. Unlike most laxatives/stool softeners though (bulk-formers excluded), it can be safely taken on an indefinite basis. Although there are benefits to getting more fiber beyond passing crap


i agree lactulose is the safest and most effective form of laxative
i used it when i was on Paxill and taking a rather large amount of pain killers with codeine in them, not a lot of codeine but still enough to block me up

however, i find being on the effexor and a benzodiazepine which can both clog your bowels that exercise daily does prevent the need for laxatives 
lol and if you have not had it in a long time, junk food can really help which is odd considering the BAD stuff that the media say about it


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## jim_morrison

Arisa1536 said:


> i agree lactulose is the safest and most effective form of laxative
> i used it when i was on Paxill and taking a rather large amount of pain killers with codeine in them, not a lot of codeine but still enough to block me up
> 
> however, i find being on the effexor and a benzodiazepine which can both clog your bowels that exercise daily does prevent the need for laxatives
> lol and if you have not had it in a long time, junk food can really help which is odd considering the BAD stuff that the media say about it


I'm suprised that codeine even worked for you (pain wise) while on paxil, as paxil generally blocks the effects of codeine.

I havn't heard of benzodiazapines causing constipation, however phenergin and higher dose effexor could though.


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## zendog78

Well, it appears that I have developed a tollerence to 60mg per day. Slowly I was going downhill and didn't even realize. I was still funtioning fine at work and day to day but after starting my martial arts class, a month later I was still having trouble remembering people and being spontanious and talkative.
I increased the dose to 75mg and within a couple of days everything became much easier and I am connecting and making friends.

Funny as the constipation resolved as the drugs effectivness wore off. Now that the dose is up again it is back.

I am kicking *** (literally) doing 7 hours a week of crav maga training and 60 hours a week at work. The increase in productivity nardil gives me is amazing! Love it


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## mike8803

zendog78 said:


> Well, it appears that I have developed a tollerence to 60mg per day. Slowly I was going downhill and didn't even realize. I was still funtioning fine at work and day to day but after starting my martial arts class, a month later I was still having trouble remembering people and being spontanious and talkative.
> I increased the dose to 75mg and within a couple of days everything became much easier and I am connecting and making friends.
> 
> Funny as the constipation resolved as the drugs effectivness wore off. Now that the dose is up again it is back.
> 
> I am kicking *** (literally) doing 7 hours a week of crav maga training and 60 hours a week at work. The increase in productivity nardil gives me is amazing! Love it


Make sure, you are not looking for the europhia. It passes within a couple weeks, after being on nardil for a month, i think once the europhia passes, you don't become a chatter box anymore, but you dont fear social settings and being around people, you just have no problems carry a conversation, its just without the europhia, i say let the europhia pass, keep your dose the same, you'll be fine.


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## zendog78

I know what your saying, in fact I am pretty sure that I have posted in this thread about the initial euphoria.
This is more like things were slowly running down, I was becoming more distant with friends and colleages and not managing to form relationships at my martial arts class. 
I didn't even consider raising the dose during this time. I can't remember why I did decide to. I think I was finding myself going from uncomfortable and slightly anxious at class to having small anxiety attacks.
Now that the dose is up, one of the first things I notice is an inclination to build relationships. I make an effort to remember peoples names. 
I am by no means euphoric or manic, just comfortable again.
But... Maybe I am lying. There is a slight euphoric edge to how I feel. Emotions are much more free flowing. I am more outgoing and spontanious.. But I am not spending up big or getting into fights like a hypomanic person does. I feel good. I feel well.
The ability to put in these big hours at work and at training are the same as they were on the lower dose. I know its excessive for a normal person, and for me historically, ****! I could barely put in 2 days at work and I would be utterly emotionally exhausted.

But I can do it, so I will. I am not taking the drug for that, I am taking it for my social phobia and this just happens to be a nice side effect. 
Also I have a goal. In 5 weeks I leave on a 3 month holiday to europe and I am getting as cashed up as I can before I leave.
With the Krav maga, my only oppertunity to grade before I leave is in a week so I am going hard for that which works in nicely with my goal to lose weight before I leave.
Having goals to drive you on is so powerful. Both the travel and the Krav Maga are going to be theraputic in terms of my anxiety disorder and general betterment of my life so I think its worthwhile.
If your going to take a Drug like Nardil and then just sit around and say to yourself "Gee, I feel so much better" then your a waster. It may not work forever so you need to get out and do all the things that SA has stopped you from doing. Dateing, joining a club, making money, study, whatever. Nardil is a tool, only you can fix your life.


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## zendog78

Just an update:

I was suffering a lot of bloating, I have been hooked on nicotine gum for over a year and have just given it away, because, I realised that it was a big cause of the massive bloating I was struggling with.
Vegatables and breads cause me to bloat up also but a huge cause of bloating is coffee, in particular instant coffee. I cut the gum and the coffee out and it has pretty much gone away.
Also I was struggling with constipation, having to give myself enemas because nothing else worked. Well, now I drink 2 litres of warmish water from the tap every morning as soon as I wake. I usually mix some movicol into the first litre and every night I take 2 ducolax.
After I drink the water I have breakfast and by the time I finish it has kicked in.
Nardil is still working, sometimes well, sometimes not so well. I can't seem to get a stable dose. I seem to need to go up and down between 4 and 6 per day.
Quitting the nicotine gum killed off a lot of the manic edge I had that was driving me on to work big hours as well as 6 hours of Krav Maga a week. But I feel more settled, less hypomanic and edgey.


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## zendog78

My views have changed since I wrote the first post, it isnt just doctors being unwilling to put their neck on the line, it is a genuinely dangerous drug. I thought I could play around and mix some recreational drugs with it last weekend if I was really really really cautious and I nearly died.

If your going to use it, be prepared to change your whole life to fit it in. You need to change your diet, never drink soft drinks, minimal sweets, basically you need to drop your kilojule intake by about 2000 a day just to maintain your weight when your body is screaming for more food. 

I have always eaten well and loved healthy food but somehow it just makes you crave junk and especially carbs. You need to resist it and get plenty of exercise. Drink a litre of water before/during meals to make you feel more full and see if you can get psyllian husk capsules (as the powder is to inconvienient) and take some of them with a litre of water every single morning so you dont big out at breakfast. In fact take it with every meal.
Also I recomend taking green tea extract with it as it helps suppress your appitite and your going to need high doses of laxatives to keep your bowls moving. 
Expect postural hypotension for the first 3 or 4 months, expect your exercise capacity to be reduced forever as it effects your cardiac output. 
Expect being unable to cum for around 4 months and a huge loss of labido afterwards.
That said, it is worth it. Increase the dose very slowly despite the temptation to up it quickly. Settle for feeling ok rather than fantastic. Do NOT chase the euphoria it gives you, especially in the begining (when it also makes you lose weight by the way)
Lastly, stick it out. It has taken about 5 months for everything to settle down for me. There will be times when it seems not worth it but at the end of the day, it is. 
Think of it like this, you are trading a psychological disability for a physical one. So be prepared to have your life limited in other ways.

It is a hard drug to live with but worth it


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## euphoria

What recreational drugs did you mix with it? Probably best to avoid drug use altogether while on MAOIs, too many interactions.


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## meyaj

zendog78 said:


> My views have changed since I wrote the first post, it isnt just doctors being unwilling to put their neck on the line, it is a genuinely dangerous drug. I thought I could play around and mix some recreational drugs with it last weekend if I was really really really cautious and I nearly died.
> 
> If your going to use it, be prepared to change your whole life to fit it in. You need to change your diet, never drink soft drinks, minimal sweets, basically you need to drop your kilojule intake by about 2000 a day just to maintain your weight when your body is screaming for more food.
> 
> I have always eaten well and loved healthy food but somehow it just makes you crave junk and especially carbs. You need to resist it and get plenty of exercise. Drink a litre of water before/during meals to make you feel more full and see if you can get psyllian husk capsules (as the powder is to inconvienient) and take some of them with a litre of water every single morning so you dont big out at breakfast. In fact take it with every meal.
> Also I recomend taking green tea extract with it as it helps suppress your appitite and your going to need high doses of laxatives to keep your bowls moving.
> Expect postural hypotension for the first 3 or 4 months, expect your exercise capacity to be reduced forever as it effects your cardiac output.
> Expect being unable to cum for around 4 months and a huge loss of labido afterwards.
> That said, it is worth it. Increase the dose very slowly despite the temptation to up it quickly. Settle for feeling ok rather than fantastic. Do NOT chase the euphoria it gives you, especially in the begining (when it also makes you lose weight by the way)
> Lastly, stick it out. It has taken about 5 months for everything to settle down for me. There will be times when it seems not worth it but at the end of the day, it is.
> Think of it like this, you are trading a psychological disability for a physical one. So be prepared to have your life limited in other ways.
> 
> It is a hard drug to live with but worth it


I have none of those problems with Parnate. Obviously I have to change my diet, but the idea of avoiding soft drinks seems just weird.

I haven't gained any weight, and am not experiencing even slight sexual side effects or postural hypotension. If you haven't given it a shot, maybe you should.

Though recreational drugs are a bad idea. There's a few that are safe to take, but I pretty much had to completely stop most of them... not even a LITTLE is worth risking it. Though I should add I'm prescribed amphetamine as well.


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## jasonl34

i also had constipation, i just eat raisin bran every morning and it seems to help a lot with it. another annoying side in the summer weather is the increased sweating. ive also gained about 10-15 lbs that seems hard to get rid of, and my job atm is pretty physical, and i try to go to the gym when i can. ive also reduced my food intake by a lot. and dont forget about anorgasmia....annoying! and i started smoking ciggarettes which seems very hard to quit on nardil. 

during the euphoric stage i ended up buying a 4 unit apartment building lol. it did take a while to close on it so it did wear off by the closing and i still went through with it but im glad i did. i would of never done it if it wasnt for nardil.

im still taking 75mg a day, it has completely taken the fear of entering a social situation away which is a good thing because i dont trap myself at home. i do think things could be better though. im not sure if i should raise it to 90mg or try to augment it with something else. i read the post about prolactin and dopamine and that seems interesting to me.


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## zendog78

Parnate and dexadrine, I have hheard a lot about it but never known anyone that was on it. I used to take parnate, the fatigue it gave me was a killer. It helped my anxiety but it made me feel apathetic about everything. I used to take dexadrine too. It made me crazy, too euphoric, too addictive. That drug owned me!

Cutting out soft drinks isnt weird. When your watching your kilojule intake just take a look at how much is in coke or any soft drink.

The scary thing about Nardil, is that you can have a hypertensive reaction with little outward signs. I had one on parnate and my heart was pounding. I had one on Nardil and my heart rate was at about 60bpm but my BP was through the roof!


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## robotaffliction

i think there's quite a range of responses that could occur with phenelzine. i went down to 1 tablet (15mg) a day from 5 tablets, i did lose almost 10 lbs, but my blood pressure actually increased over the course of a month. it is well-known that apart from the food and medicine interactions, the general effect of the MAOIs (other than parnate) is to lower the blood pressure. one way to reduce the bloating may be to cut out salt from the diet, bloating may be edema (build-up of fluids in the body) and too much salt may make this worse. i dont tend to think that nardil works for SA for everyone, or more accurately, that its effect lasts. i have a friend/acquaintance who upped his dose to 120mg/day, it's pretty sad because it hardly helps him for SA anymore, and he's gained probably more than 50 lbs, almost entirely fat. overall i think a good maintenance dose might be just the standard 3-4 tablets a day, your body can get a tolerance to the appetite increase at a higher dose, so going down to this kind of dose might get rid of weight gain entirely for you. YMMV


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## meyaj

Parnate has definitely made me more susceptible to edema - peripheral edema in particular. If my sleep is a bit off and I'm awake for long periods of time, BECAUSE I'm not lying down, the fluid doesn't drain properly and my feet swell like balloons and I develop cankles heh


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## zendog78

after balttling through the side effects for so long I have realised that nardils main effect on me now is a numbing one. There is a certain sparkle of life that is missing.
My social anxiety is still improved and much so but man am I apathetic. All I do is work heaps because I dont care about anything. 
I am still fat, 15kg weight gain that nothing will shift.
AAt the moment I have just started augmenting ith thyroxine 100mcg a day. Only been a week but already the same old story. Felt fantastic for a couple of days and then side effects.. irritability being the biggest one.
I wonder if it actually means that I am better....being angry that is. 
The say depression is suppressed rage. Maybe I am feeling better so its coming out?
But then again, throxine is well known for causing this.
Bah, I hate this ****ty boring lonely pointless life. Optimism is stupid. Odds are I will die alone and unloved having gone through life constantly trying to avoid pain.
But hey, life is suffering right?
Welcome to my nardil update


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## DaniShimmi

crayzyMed said:


> Because:
> And I'm sure that you cant achieve the same benefits with adding meds togheter as garbage+garbage = garbage.
> Nardil may act on some unknown receptors wich explains its effectiveness.


What gabage+garbage+garbage meds would give a similar effect to parnate?

I cant get parnate cos I have an "unhealthy relationship with alcoho" so I want somthing thats going to do somthing similar.

Guide 4 dummies good luck with the parnate - hope you get the girl!


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## crayzyMed

You can drink alcohol on MAOI's, just not the ones with tyramine.


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## vinny

zendog78 said:


> after balttling through the side effects for so long I have realised that nardils main effect on me now is a numbing one. There is a certain sparkle of life that is missing.
> My social anxiety is still improved and much so but man am I apathetic. All I do is work heaps because I dont care about anything.
> I am still fat, 15kg weight gain that nothing will shift.
> AAt the moment I have just started augmenting ith thyroxine 100mcg a day. Only been a week but already the same old story. Felt fantastic for a couple of days and then side effects.. irritability being the biggest one.
> I wonder if it actually means that I am better....being angry that is.
> The say depression is suppressed rage. Maybe I am feeling better so its coming out?
> But then again, throxine is well known for causing this.
> Bah, I hate this ****ty boring lonely pointless life. Optimism is stupid. Odds are I will die alone and unloved having gone through life constantly trying to avoid pain.
> But hey, life is suffering right?
> Welcome to my nardil update


Have you noticed yourself getting into any aggressive behavior on Nardil? What dose are you on?


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## jasonl34

ive been looking to start taking piracetam but im wondering about how much b6 it contains and nardil. ive read these b6 and nardil play a part in eachother.

any thoughts?


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## housebunny

jasonl34 said:


> ive read these b6 and nardil play a part in eachother.


in what way?


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## housebunny

zendog78 said:


> Felt fantastic for a couple of days and then side effects.. irritability being the biggest one.


i am on nardil and thyroid. thyroid made me really angry at first. i just upped my dose and am wondering if i'm going to have rage again


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## jasonl34

Phenelzine has also been linked to vitamin B6 deficiency. It reacts with vitamin B6 via an unknown enzyme to form a biologically inert metabolite. Both phenelzine and vitamin B6 are rendered inactive upon this reaction occurring.
For this reason, it is recommended to supplement with vitamin B6 while taking phenelzine. High doses of vitamin B6 may significantly lower phenelzine levels and subsequently inhibit its therapeutic benefits, however, and thus, excess quantities of vitamin B6 should be avoided.


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## zendog78

*The begining of the End*

Since I started this thread I feel I should do what most dont and finish it, so people get the full picture

I am in the early stages of a crash withdrawl from Nardil.
Basically I am going from 5 a day to 1 per day and shortly thereafter zero.
Over the past 12 months Nardil has decreased more and more in effectivness. I have found myself moody and withdrawn and stuck working night shifts because I cant handle days.
and WEIGHT GAIN! I went from 76kg up to 92Kg. I have this huge gross looking distended belly that no ammount of exercise makes a difference to.
I have no energy, feel sad and while I am not having outright panic attacks, I am still nervous uncomfortable and have heaps of trouble being social.
My bowles dont funtion, the only way I can move them is to take 6 ducolax (standard dose is 2) every 3 days and just purge my system. Heaps of flatulance. Dizzyness, tiredness. I realised that I ave been in a depressed yet hypomanic state for months. Racing thoughts all the time. constantly worried about drug and food interactions.

But

Going back to no meds.. very very worried. Major panic attacks, flashbacks agorophobia, terribble depression, massive social phobia.
Its the only thing that helped. Every other time I try to stop my life just starts to fall apart. I lose friends, I risk losing my job. Lots of anger and frustration and misery.

I dont know if I can cope but Nardil has brought my life to a standstill. I want to meet a girl, but I hate my body, I have always kept very slim and fit so having this gut is so depressing. It makes me look like a slob.
I want to find somewhere new to live but the change could tip me over the edge.

So anyway, this is kind of day one. I feel ok except for the electric shocks when I move my eyes. Typical antidepressant withdrawl stuff.

After day 3...thats what I am worried about. I am scared for my own safety. I just lose it, become paranoid, hypersensitive, angry and depressed.
I guess I am writing this as a precurser to a post that may come later, while I am still able to be objective and rational.

Wish me luck


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## zendog78

Day 3

I have been having terrible horific nightmares. It is like someone has delved deap into my subconcious and found all my fears, all my failures and miserys and hang ups and written a script to include them all in one story line. I didnt dream on Nardil, now the dreams are not only horrific, they are vivid as hell too. I wake covered in sweat and panting for breath then I go back to sleep and straight back into the same nightmare!!

I have also been getting electric shocks, out of control electric shocks every time I move my eyeballs or even my body. One a second pretty much.
I had to start taking nardil again, one in the day to stop the shocks, and one at night to stop the nightmares.

Almost a year ago I broke up with my girlfriend. It was an unhappy relationship from start to finish, we were together for a year or so and I cut contact completely shortly after starting nardil. Completely because we would always get back together and go through it over and over again.
For the past year I have been working night shifts - 60+ hours a week.
Now that I have stopped working so much and stopped the nardil its like all the grief I shut off through excessive work and nardil is coming out. I have been missing her like crazy, crying over her. It is ****ed up because I wasnt happy at all and I was relived for both of us when I cut ties but here I am in a state over her. It probably has to do with finding out she has a new boyfriend too.

I have lived so much of my life as basically a shut in. No ammount of exposure eases the anxiety. No ammount of healthy living lifts my mood enough to make me go out and enjoy life.
I hate myself, I never stop trying to be better than I am but the core me... My moods, paranoia, hypersensitivity, overwhelming sadness..my maddness..all stay the same
Through all this I can see that I am a good guy. But I just keep the whole world at arms length. It is scary, it hurts, its boring and understimulating and stifling and arduous.


So here I am, day 3.


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## zendog78

5 Days

Still on 2 tablets a day, electric shocks reducing.

3kg weight loss. Fluids. I always said it was fluids

Food intake down

Profound feelings of loneliness. I contacted my ex- girlfriend who I havnt spoken to since we broke up asking her for her support... I have nobody else.

Feel like crying much of the time

Feel slowed down. Mind and body.

Feel hopeless.

Not feeling anything good bout myself

No panic attacks yet

Social anxiety slightly worse

No paranoia yet

No OCD yet

Thoughts of death but not suicide.

I feel terrible. To come off the last 30mg a day... Whats going to happen to me?
Why am I like this anyway?
I feel like my whole life is wrong. I cant escape, I cant overcome this. Its the end of the road. Nobody knows me, I wont..cant let anybody in.
So very lonely


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## zendog78

Today - Day 6
Zaps are decreasing, havnt dosed today, will take just one tonight at bed to stop the nightmares. I am not as bad as yesterday but still very low.
Woke up this morning realising I had contacted my ex and freaked out. Have a just opened up a huge can of worms..can I cope with seeing her again?

I go past parks and see couples in them and just start crying. It is stupid because she made my life a nightmare...but I still loved her...and I still miss her.

It hits me so hard I feel like I am going to vomit. 

Scary thing is, I know I am not much different from this when I am unmedicated without any withdrawls. I just seem to be constantly lonely, constantly grieving..my lost loves...my lost life


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## crayzyMed

Damn dude i hope you start feeling better soon.

Trust me this is not the end of the road, you CAN overcome your issues.


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## i_against_i

I don't know what you've tried before, but I would stay on nardil. Go down to one or two pills a day. You can lose the weight easily. Exercise. Then go back up and watch your weight and food intake, you CAN manage the weight. 

You may need more NE...i've read long term maoi users sometimes have NE depletion. Try to get Noritryptiline or other SNRI... it might balance everything out.

Good luck


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## vinny

Nardil is junk now. I took it for a year and after 2-3 months I felt it get weaker and weaker and then eventually poop out. The reforumation they did to the drug back in 2003 made the drug much worse, and dont forget the weight gain, you'll wind up with a big belly i promise you no matter how hard you work out at the gym. Trust me

Nardil is junk now.


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## gordonjohnson008

Zendog - this is tough to read, man. But definitely keep recording your experience here as a journal. It may be helpful for others who come across it or for you yourself when you're looking back at why you quit and what the withdrawal was like.

I've found when starting/stopping SSRIs or MAOIs your emotions can roller-coaster. Sometimes this has made be dwell on exes more than was healthy. I eventually realized it was the meds, and my emotions normalized.

For the nightmares, maybe you'll sleep better with a sedative. Don't get dependant, but you could probably take something temporarily like Valerian Root or Klonopin.

I never thought I could come off meds, and might still be on them if family & conditions hadn't pushed me off. While I still have some SA and some things are tough on a daily basis, I am pushing myself and will say I'm doing things now I never thought I could do off of meds. I'm doing a better job of rationalizing this SA away.

BTW someone else has this vid in their sig, I watched it recently, and I think there's promise in gradually attenuating SA through exposure and other therapies: 




Good luck and keep posting.


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## Canadian4Life

Never tried it. I have bad SA but on ritalin so nardil is a no go for me.


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## donk

Canadian4Life said:


> Never tried it. I have bad SA but on ritalin so nardil is a no go for me.


if you read some of crazymeds posts on MAOI's you'll see that you should probably _add_ Nardil to your Ritalin experience. I've used and abused Ritalin for years along with most all anti-depressants but I too was warned away from stimulants with the maoi's. the ssri's are emotion flatteners for many. not so with the maoi's.


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## acejudas

I had a similar experience as Zendog's. I'll write about it tomorrow. 

Listen, Zendog. It seems you are going throgh a similar hell as I did. Things will get better. Nardil discontinuation is heavy ****, but . I recommend you get some temporary medication for the first months. I used some benzos and 25mg Seroquel for proper sleep. I'll try to write my story tomorrow.


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## acejudas

My experience is similar to Zendog's. I used Nardil for about 2 years. Dose ranging from 30-90mgs daily. At first it was like all the pieces of my life came together and that I had finally found the solution to all my problems. After about a year things startet to be less stable and I started to mess with the dose, going from 60 to 90mg. This helped for a while but after a month or so things started going downhill again. I consulted my psychiatrist and got a prescription for Lyrica, starting at 150mg a day and ending up at 600mg a day due to tolerance issues. This worked for a while but after a couple of months Lyrica lost its effect and I was even more screwed than before. Let me tell you this; coming off Lyrica when on Nardil was hell for me. I had never been closer to suicide. I was planning to keep this short so let's skip to the ending. Nardil was not working anymore, I was back to my baseline even though I was on 75mgs a day. All the terrible side-effects was still there though(I won't get into all the side-effects in this post). So, I decided to taper off it.
So far this is the hardest thing I've had to do. This is about 5 months ago now. I still feel like ****, but I'm slightly better now. Suicide thoughts is still a daily problem, but they are not as severe as they used to be. Now i use 50mgs of Seroquel each night for sleep and that's it. I am going to see my psychiatrist next friday, but I have no idea what to ask for. I feel like I'm out of options and think I might have to cope with my depression and SA without meds.


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## zendog78

Day 12

I am now on one tablet every other day at night. One thing that has suprised me is that I have had no reoccurence of the panic and anxiety symptoms that I originally started taking the drug for.. I mean, you can see my discription of what I was like at the start of this thread..I was incapacitated by it so this is a real suprise.
Depression though is a constant and it may be that which is protecting me from the anxiety.
I have been hitting the piss hard the past 2 friday nights, it is really disturbing my sleep and sending my depression way up. It is getting not worth it to drink anymore.
I had a fight with my house mate just before I started cutting down on the nardil. She was being ***** and I got very very upset. I am really holding a grudge about it...even though it is probably going to hurt me more than her.
I knew it was time to move on from where I am living but now I am free of nardil I really see it and am trying to be more pro-active in finding somewhere.
I have basically cut myself off from the people I live with....and I feel fine about it for the most part. In a way I was using them as a substitute for going out and getting a life. I have gotten back into the guitar and learned 3 songs this afternoon. On Nardil I couldnt really progress at all.

Even though I am depressed, I am feeling so much more. I feel the beauty in a rainy or sunny day, in art, my emotions are hyper responsive. I get teary over news articles with any emotional content good or bad.
Much of the anger I was feeling seems to have gone. Still getting nightmares but not so severe. 
At my request and after showing my GP a section in my medical journal I bought "treatment resistant mood disorders" 
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...&resnum=5&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false
He has started me on a calcium channel blocker as a mood stabilizer.
I asked for this because I was becoming so angry, really raging about stuff in my head. I dont know if it is the CCB or something else but those feelings have gone now and I feel much more settled.

I also have a script for Tegretol but have to wait till I am off the nardil suprisingly due to possible interaction. I will see how I go, would prefer not to take it.

I have some valium sitting at home, I have taken it once during this withdrawl when I was literally going out of my mind. I am avoiding it because I dont want any rebound symptoms complicating what is the withdrawl and what is a return of my symptoms. 
I am taking melatonin for sleep. Seraquel works awesome but at only 25mg at night I put on stacks of weight over 6 weeks. And! I have never had any psychotic symptoms in my life but when I took seraquel I HEARD voices. It was freaking scarcy

I am for the most part keeping up on going out for runs. I trained doing martial arts on Nardil but it was a suprime effort of will to get me out there. I have had to stop going for the past 2 weeks as the brain zaps made it impossible.
Anyway, Now I am naturally inclined to go for a run whereas on Nardil I felt so sluggish and bloated and lacking in energy.
The big distended Nardil belly is gone. I am still fat and have a belly, but the grotesque cancer patient look is gone now much to my relief. I have dropped a solid 3kg (9lbs) in the past 12 days. I am still hungry but it is easy to ignore now.
Anyway, this is all pretty boring I guess. But boring is ok considering what the alternative could be


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## leon21

@Zendog:

It`s sad to hear Nardil didn`t work out....you`ll be fine!

btw, are you sure you won`t miss those Nardil-farts? sorry...:teeth


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## zendog78

Definetly not! Its amazing the simple pleasure of normal bowel movements.

What to say..

20 days since I started tapering down, still on one tablet every other day.
Battling depression more than anything else. Feel very down.
I work night shifts and the change over from my days on to off is definetly making it worse. Add in a few drinks and it exacibates it even more.
Alcohol pretty much just makes me sad now.
Thinking about my ex a lot, find myself disecting the relationship, what went wrong etc etc. 
Lost pretty much all interest in being social, spending a lot of time isolating in my room...not out of anxiety, just because it is just hard...like it takes so much energy.

Feeling the beginings of SA start to creep back in which is ****...somehow the depression is protective I am sure.

On the plus side, I am starting to get comments on my weight loss. The scales only say about 3kg but even to myself I can see a massive difference. Its like I am just not so puffy and bloated anymore.
Been jogging most days as well.

When I was on nardil I was obsessed with food, my whole life was centred around food while on nardil. I was hungry all the time, wake up in the middle of the night hungry and in the morning ravonious.
I kept away from junk and for a long while exercised to extreeme, but the sheer volume of food I was eating meant my weight was always inching up.
Even at 7000kj day it still went up.
The only thing that stopped it was 2000mg of metformin a day (Im not a diabetic). It stopped the ravionious, sick with hunger feelings and reduced my intake but still couldnt lose weight.
I find hunger very easy to ignore now that I am off it and find eating to be somewhat of a chore which is how I have always been. Nardil made food very drug like, it certainly gave me more sympathy for people who chronically overeat having experienced this.

I was also drinking huge ammounts of tea and coffee (without sugar) which has also dropped back to normal ammounts and it is probably worth mentioning that I was also getting peripheral neuropathy in both feet while on nardil that has already cleared up.

In a nutshell, looking back on Nardil at the moment:

Positive:
I think I needed it at the time. Things were really rough.
It let me escape from a bad relationship
It gave me the strength to work huge hours and get my finances in order.
It helped me build and repair some relationships

Negative:

*The obscene ammount of side effects getting on it. (first 5 months)*
Severe Postural hypertension, 
total sexual dysfuntion, 
fatigue, 
urinry retention (I had to catherterise myself more than once)

*Highly troublesome side effects staying on it*

Dosing every 4 hours
Timing dose to avoid fatigue at important times
Constant worry about food and drug interactions
Reducing effectivness
Numbing of emotions (quite unlike ssris)
Weight gain
HUNGER
Insomnia
peripheral neuropathy 
Impared judgement
Impared reflex's
Constant chronic constipation
Bloating

The list goes on..

I will only make one more update on this thread. Say in a month from now. To drag it on any longer seems to defeat the purpose as it is hard to tell the difference between withdrawl and the return of my symptoms.

Thanks for reading


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## TheoBobTing

This is a good thread. I've been considering trying to get myself on phenelzine, but the generally immense side effects and many dangerous food/drug interactions are daunting. I think I'll just wimp out and try something else.


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## zendog78

Since my last post I got on agomeletine and it got me off nardil. It works really well for depression, I highly recommend it.
It even helps somewhat with anxiety and social phobia. It is a good drug, not mind blowingly strong, but few if any side effects.

However not good enough... I have been getting ocd like behaviours...really socially debilitating ones that I am too embarrassed to even disclose.
My Doctor thinks it could be a tic as in tourettes. I think he could be onto something

I was struggling along and then my doc put me on abilify 2.5mg. Initially it worked great, way less anxiety, my thoughts slowed right down. But It gradually intensified the tic/ocd thing to the point to where it felt like being hit by a hammer rather than nudged in the ribs to perform this..tic.

Then I got seriously assaulted by some junkie.

I moved house and have new house mates...everything went downhill..my mental state was threatening to ruin everything...

So I filled an old script for nardil.

I have taken my first dose... on top of clonadine and agomeletine. I had a headache and I am reminded of the fear I got every time I had a headache on nardil. Pulse dropped to 50...blood pressure was ok though (have my own machine..essemtial when you take a maoi I think) 
I should have let it wash out for a day
However after a sleep I have woken up and the compulsion is reduced like 90% even now several hours after that one dose. 
My thoughts have calmed down. 
I feel sane.

I look back on the past few months and realise... I have been in pain.
Such intense emotional anguish...almost constantly.
Constant worry about everything and with the OCD thing, so much energy demoted to holding my head together...to fighting it.

I have been suffering so much and it was so constant that it had become normal.
Now that its gone... I dunno, the only analogy that describes it is suddenly being without pain.

Not being scared to leave my bedroom, to come home, to go to class's I do.
Everything is clear, my mind is not racing with a million thoughts all unfinished.

I do feel kinda spaced out, I think it's the same attention problems I had before just without the racing random thoughts.

I can't help but feel a bit sad though, because I know I am going to go through all these side effects again.

Can I live with this drug...can I live without it?

Talk about a rock and a hard place.

I have some idea's though that hopefully my psychiatrist will go along with.

Clonadine potentiates nardil. It is also a hypotensive agent which compicates things. Maybe a small dose at night will let me get by on a smaller dose.

Dexamphetamine potentiates nardil. It is also a very hazardous mix. I also was once addicted to dexampetamine so I know I could never be trusted to have a bottle of them.
So maybe a very low dose say 1mg per 15mg of nardil compounded in a long acting formulation...I think it could work.

Anyway. Again, if your suffering, I would suggest giving agomeletine a try, if it wasn't for the ocd thing the abilify seemed to compliment it nicely. Clonazepam also does but it is a dirty unpleasant life denying drug in anything but very small doses.

Also What has helped me is to remember the 4 noble truths, http://www.4truths.com/ but I am not going to preach to you.

I will update this no doubt. Best wish's to all of you and keep fighting the good fight.

Zen


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## redtogo72

zendog, I remember reading this post last year. It helped me when I was starting just starting out. It has a lot of good information. Thanks and good luck! 

I've been on Nardil about 5-6 months. It took two months before I remember being able to feel better. It's helped mostly with my depressive symptoms, but also helps reduce my generalized anxiety disorder mental issues (worrying, procrastination). Nardil hasn't helped reduce my SA symptoms at all!  I was thinking of adding Lyrica to reduce the physical pain and anxiety from GAD/SAD.

The side effects do really suck, but for me I kind of feel like the med is worth it in the end. I think I'll stay on it for a while.

This looks like a good diet/med guide for Nardil that I found here. I saw it on Crazymeds forum. Of course consult your doctor first, before trying any food or medicine!


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## zendog78

Thank you Nardil! The socially crippling tic/ocd thing is gone or almost gone as of today. I have just been pounding high dosages ie. 90mg/day into myself to get my levels up and it has worked.
I forgot how life can be enjoyable. I may have to face up to the fact that Nardil and I are bound for life. 
Whenever the side effects get overwhelming and I stop taking it I forgot what the alternative is. Horrendous suffering. It is a type of madness to be so twisted with anxiety.
I am going to get fat, sexually dysfunctional, lethargic and all the rest.. but I need this drug. There is nothing else that comes close. Nothing that comes within a mile of how ok Nardil makes me feel.


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## leon21

@zendog:

now i know what a nardil belly looks like....
had to stop it...not because of that...but its a pain in the ***.


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## spartan7

I took the new Nardil for about 6 months. It doesnt work for SA anymore, the older version by Phizer did however. It works now just for depression, which I dont have. There's other meds to take if your looking for a SA cure, try Paxil+Buspar+2mgs of Klonopin that should help.


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## foxy

NARDIL if it was the only med , I would sooner suffer. Side effects like you carnt imagine , an a complete life change. Forget sex an the food you love to eat, but if your sectioned why not.


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## boostinggtir

zendog78 said:


> Thank you Nardil! The socially crippling tic/ocd thing is gone or almost gone as of today. I have just been pounding high dosages ie. 90mg/day into myself to get my levels up and it has worked.
> I forgot how life can be enjoyable. I may have to face up to the fact that Nardil and I are bound for life.
> Whenever the side effects get overwhelming and I stop taking it I forgot what the alternative is. Horrendous suffering. It is a type of madness to be so twisted with anxiety.
> I am going to get fat, sexually dysfunctional, lethargic and all the rest.. but I need this drug. There is nothing else that comes close. Nothing that comes within a mile of how ok Nardil makes me feel.


Yea, the urine retention has gotten quite bad for me. So this is also the reason when I look at some porn.. I can't play finish playing with with myself? haha


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## spartan7

Nardil is NOT the gold standard for SA anymore.


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## TheoBobTing

foxy said:


> NARDIL if it was the only med , I would sooner suffer. Side effects like you carnt imagine , an a complete life change. Forget sex an the food you love to eat, but if your sectioned why not.


 Have you tried it? If so, for how long?


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## gcali

spartan7 said:


> Nardil is NOT the gold standard for SA anymore.


What do you consider the current gold standard to be?


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## basuraeuropea

gcali said:


> What do you consider the current gold standard to be?


reviving a dead thread only to ask a member who is temporarily banned a question...? :no


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## rallysport

*nardil 15 days of 45 mg*

Hi, this is my 15th day. Not much difference in depression, anxiety but maybe more time needed ? Was in the "I want relief Now mindset" please advise.


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## doctorQ

*Lying to doctors*

I am a doctor.
The advice to lie to doctors and scam doctors only makes doctors more wary and less likely to prescribe. I will certainly publish this thread to my network. Doctors generally assume that people tell them the truth. When you lie to your doctor you increase the likelihood of a bad outcome.


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## ChopSuey

doctorQ said:


> I am a doctor.
> The advice to lie to doctors and scam doctors only makes doctors more wary and less likely to prescribe. I will certainly publish this thread to my network. Doctors generally assume that people tell them the truth. When you lie to your doctor you increase the likelihood of a bad outcome.


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## nymj

zendog78 said:


> Nardil has a reputation for not causing tolerance and even when it does occur it seems like a short drug holiday will restore the effects.
> There are people who have been taking it for 30 years plus and it still works unlike ssri's.
> Why do you think there continues to be a market for several new antidepressants every year? Because they are they are ineffective and you develop tolerance to them.
> The longest I ever had anything work was citalopram which worked great for about 5 months and then ok for about another 8 months. I also believe citalopram left me with permanent tardive dyskenesia.
> I had such a hell of a time getting off it, I tried so many times and I went crazy every time I stopped, nobody told e about withdrawl...****ing doctors.
> I remember when I did get off them I was walking down the street and I was thinking "man, I feel so depressed" and then I stopped and went wow, I feel depressed, I actually feel something!
> Nasty nasty life numbing drugs
> 
> Nardil on the other hand, one thing I noticed is that I can not just feel emotions instead of being emotionally anesthetized, I feel more fully.
> When I have felt sad, appropriately so because of a movie, sad news whatever, I feel a deeper more complete more full sadness. A healthy kind of sadness, I guess sadness minus the distress.


Exactly. GPs can throw a dart and prescribe. No knowledge necessary. Nardil (from Gavis) hands down #1.


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1

I've been on it for almost 4 months and I've only had mild relief from anxiety and depression. I've been back on 60 mg for about 4-5 weeks now. I tried 75 mg for like 6 weeks, but the side effects were too much. What should I do? Should I try going back up higher on the dosage or is this mild relief all I can expect from Nardil? Do I need to give 60 mg longer, go up to 75, or even try going up to 90 mg? How do you know when you've given Nardil a full legit trial and know which dose you truly need?


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## V45561N

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> I've been on it for almost 4 months and I've only had mild relief from anxiety and depression. I've been back on 60 mg for about 4-5 weeks now. I tried 75 mg for like 6 weeks, but the side effects were too much. What should I do? Should I try going back up higher on the dosage or is this mild relief all I can expect from Nardil? Do I need to give 60 mg longer, go up to 75, or even try going up to 90 mg? How do you know when you've given Nardil a full legit trial and know which dose you truly need?


I've been on a straight 60mg for about 5 weeks now and I feel a light euphoria every morning. It's definitively helped with my SA although it didn't make me fearless in social situations, just a little less scared. As far as my depression goes, it's helped tremendously. Again, I'm not Mr. Happy Go Lucky but my days are brighter and I tend to dwell a little less on negative thoughts. It didn't do much for my anxiety but I have clonazepam for that. I think I still have some more weeks to go to derive the full benefit.

Side effects so far - No insomnia, thank God, I take my full dose at 6am in the morning to help with insomnia. One time, I took my full dose at 9pm and couldn't sleep. Constipation is there but I have suppository laxatives that work great. I feel drunk most of they day but it's more of a light happy drunk. Can't explain. The biggest side effect I have that I praying will go away is sleepiness and lethargy. I have been sleeping 12 plus hours a day. All I want to do is sleep. And I'm just slow. I don't much motivation to do anything. It's like I'm content. I hope this passes. But definitely not a dealbreaker.

This is the most effective AD I've tried and I've tried all the SSRI's, you name it. After a trial on Citapram, I quit believing in AD's but since Nardil was a totally different drug I wanted to give it a shot. My current psychiatrist was a little hesitant to prescribe it but we set up a consultation and I brought paperwork to prove to her I knew what the risks where so she agreed. My old psychiatrist flat out said no and was rude about it and was acting like I was asking for heroin or something. He's a little *****, he under prescribes medication to all his patients out of fear of litigation and all he wants to do is talk during the sessions. He doesn't believe in medication to help the suffering. He wouldn't prescribe me the amount of clonazapem I needed and told me that I can deal with it even after I told him I was sufferring. I would just shut me down when I tried to talking about my suffering. I have disdain for him as he should not be a medicine doctor. He wasn't underprescribing because he cared about out well-being, it was out of his cowardly fear of litigation, he even admitted this in one our sessions. I saw him for a year and half because my SA kept me from seeing another psychiatrist. Seeing a new doctor gave me heavy anxiety. I finally made the step though and I'm glad I did. My new pdoc is more open-minded and she believes in medication which is what pdoc's are supposed to be, doctors of medicine.

Anyways, to conclude, Nardil is AMAZING so far. I can't say I'm 100% but I feel SO much better pre-nardil. Pre-nardil was living hell for me on earth.

And my advice to you, Iwilloveranxiety, unfortunately by this point, I feel you should have felt a big difference already. Everybody's different and reacts differently to different medications. I know you want it to work so badly for you but sometimes it is what it is. Although I COULD BE WRONG here. I've only been on it for 5 weeks so I can only give you my experience. If any else has long experience, help this guy out please.


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## watertouch

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> I've been on it for almost 4 months and I've only had mild relief from anxiety and depression. I've been back on 60 mg for about 4-5 weeks now. I tried 75 mg for like 6 weeks, but the side effects were too much. What should I do? Should I try going back up higher on the dosage or is this mild relief all I can expect from Nardil? Do I need to give 60 mg longer, go up to 75, or even try going up to 90 mg? How do you know when you've given Nardil a full legit trial and know which dose you truly need?


Tried benzo and betablockers? Otherwise maybe augment it with Nortriptyline say 50mg...

Technically you can measure the MAO-B and se how much MAO% that is inhibith, 80%+ is the goal... But normally 60-90mg will achive that...

With the higher doses comes more MAO inhibition, and GABA-T inhibition.
But if the side effects is unbarable Augment it.


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## watertouch

You could also try to lower COMT (it works kinda like MAO) methylfolate or more 5-MTHF will do that. Id go for the Nortriptyline tough!


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## barry1685

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> I've been on it for almost 4 months and I've only had mild relief from anxiety and depression. I've been back on 60 mg for about 4-5 weeks now. I tried 75 mg for like 6 weeks, but the side effects were too much. What should I do? Should I try going back up higher on the dosage or is this mild relief all I can expect from Nardil? Do I need to give 60 mg longer, go up to 75, or even try going up to 90 mg? How do you know when you've given Nardil a full legit trial and know which dose you truly need?


What are your anxiety symptoms? I have zero depression on nardil because it helps my anxiety, more interest in socializing and I love talking and smiling at people.

I would say nardil eliminates a lot of physical symptoms of anxiety. Solid eye contact.

If you have anxiety that has to do with heart racing then I don't think nardil helps that much. I still have anxiety about health related stuff and my heart races at times.


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1

watertouch said:


> Tried benzo and betablockers? Otherwise maybe augment it with Nortriptyline say 50mg...
> 
> Technically you can measure the MAO-B and se how much MAO% that is inhibith, 80%+ is the goal... But normally 60-90mg will achive that...
> 
> With the higher doses comes more MAO inhibition, and GABA-T inhibition.
> But if the side effects is unbarable Augment it.


How do you measure the percentage of MAO inhibition? Where do you go for that?

And how does a beta blocker help augment Nardil?


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1

barry1685 said:


> What are your anxiety symptoms? I have zero depression on nardil because it helps my anxiety, more interest in socializing and I love talking and smiling at people.
> 
> I would say nardil eliminates a lot of physical symptoms of anxiety. Solid eye contact.
> 
> If you have anxiety that has to do with heart racing then I don't think nardil helps that much. I still have anxiety about health related stuff and my heart races at times.


I get anxiety about being put on the spot and having to try and figure something out in front of people. I feel slow a lot because I'm tired and have anxiety, so that gives me more anxiety. I also don't feel much motivation to go out and talk to people and do new things. There were some days on Nardil where I would feel more sociable, but that hasn't lasted.

And I just got really hurt by a girl that I was so sweet and friendly too. She has a boyfriend but was using me a shoulder to cry on about her boyfriend. Suddenly she stops talking to me because she says her bf found out and we can't talk anymore. I feel like she just used me to make her boyfriend jealous and it really hurt because she shared personal stuff with me about her having mental issues. I wanted to help her. I hooked her up with a job too and was there for her when she was sad, then she just one day won't respond and ignores all my attempts to contact her. I don't understand how some people can be so nice and sweet and then be so cold and heartless. Guess she didn't care too much for me as a friend after all I did for her. Sorry for rambling lol, but it just hurts how people can do that to you and not care about your feelings when you were there for them.


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## will22

gcali said:


> What do you consider the current gold standard to be?


There is no such thing. It just happens that Nardil has less of the things that introspective mental health consumers hate most about pharma meds (feeling zombified, bad withdrawal, suicidal feelings, lack of evidence of efficacy vs placebo).


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## barry1685

will22 said:


> There is no such thing. It just happens that Nardil has less of the things that introspective mental health consumers hate most about pharma meds (feeling zombified, bad withdrawal, suicidal feelings, lack of evidence of efficacy vs placebo).


Nonsense. Nardil is superior to ssris and placebo. I've been cured of social anxiety with nardil. Some people just don't respond to nardil. I thank god everyday for the new life I have now.


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## Caedmon

will22 said:


> There is no such thing. It just happens that Nardil has less of the things that introspective mental health consumers hate most about pharma meds (feeling zombified, bad withdrawal, suicidal feelings, lack of evidence of efficacy vs placebo).


Well... If it has fewer side effects and more evidence of working well, wouldn't that lend _support_ to the notion?

But... I am not sure where the idea of a "gold standard" has come from entirely, or if it is well established or even useful. It isn't clear just what "gold standard" really means. I would say it's probably more opinion than anything.


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## will22

barry1685 said:


> Nonsense. Nardil is superior to ssris and placebo.


That is my general impression of the drug too. I'm saying from what I've read, that Nardil has _less _of what I put in parentheses than other meds. And this is from one of those people you mentioned for whom Nardil was a dud.



barry1685 said:


> I've been cured of social anxiety with nardil.


Careful with the use of the word, "cured". I talked like that while in the honeymoon phase of a drug, and later realized how silly it was to say that.



Caedmon said:


> Well... If it has fewer side effects and more evidence of working well, wouldn't that lend _support_ to the notion?


Sort of. Assuming it's the best, I'd would still prefer calling it the best available thing to drug yourself with instead of, "Gold Standard for treatment". "Gold Standard for treatment", makes me think that it's worthwhile and actually a treatment. How can it even be called a treatment if it's going to poop out in a few years? How is it a treatment if it lifts you out of the garbage tank and then after a while throws you back into it (sometime deeper than you were before)? I'd like to hear from Barry in 5-10 years time from now. Tolerance ruins the positive effects of any drug. And even the positive effects aren't usually that great. The positive effects of all the drugs I've taken felt 1-dimensional and synthetic, not making me truly happy. But hey, maybe those who get their mood actually changed by Nardil experience something more organic, I can't say...


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## watertouch

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> How do you measure the percentage of MAO inhibition? Where do you go for that?
> 
> And how does a beta blocker help augment Nardil?


You messure the value of MAO-B in Trombocyter. A bloodtest.

But it's usually not necissery the goal is to inhibith 80%+
so 60-90mg of Nardil and some 30-60 on Parnate.


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## barry1685

Will has a good point. In 5-10 years who knows what the efficiency could be. I guess you could switch to parnate while tolerance to nardil resets. I guess if it happens I worry about it then. Maybe I would take a good break 3/4 months on a benzo or something and then restart. But you must think positive I guess.


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1

If Nardil is working, does hypotension remain? I use to get the hypotension quite a while ago, but I no longer have it at 60 mg. Is this a sign that I need to be at a higher dose? Should you continue to experience the hypotension?


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## watertouch

Hypotension is from the MAO being effected, but +that, it inhibits GABA-T, that also contribute...


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1

watertouch said:


> Hypotension is from the MAO being effected, but +that, it inhibits GABA-T, that also contribute...


So since I no longer experience hypotension, should I go up on my dosage? I don't feel like I'm in a happier or more social mood at 60 mg. Since a higher dose inhibits more GABA-T, will that help? Should I go up to 75 mg again and possibly 90 mg if I can tolerate the side effects?


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## watertouch

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> So since I no longer experience hypotension, should I go up on my dosage? I don't feel like I'm in a happier or more social mood at 60 mg. Since a higher dose inhibits more GABA-T, will that help? Should I go up to 75 mg again and possibly 90 mg if I can tolerate the side effects?


Its probably working with 60, the body so to say strive for so to say feeling normal, so its usually specially noticable in beginning, with time it can get better...

With higher dose more MAO gets inhibithed so you get more Serotonin, Noradrenalin,Dopamine, and more GABA

Well the "therapeutic" dose range is 60-90mg... It sounds on you that you are not totally happy with 60mg so yeah, raise it... Or augment it, but i would try a higher dose before starting to mix in other medicines...


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1

Does parnate ever work better for anxiety for people than nardil even tho it doesnt affect gaba? And which one is better in terms of cognition or thinking clearly?


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## watertouch

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> Does parnate ever work better for anxiety for people than nardil even tho it doesnt affect gaba? And which one is better in terms of cognition or thinking clearly?


ehh i would say no, it's structure is really like Amphetamine, kinda works like it to, so some feel that Amph work for them socially, other dont...
But i always had to use Benzo when "socializing or such"

Last time i took Parnate i got really "slow n foggy" my closeterm memory was really bad, thats also when i did a neuropsykiatrik evaluation and the WAIS test, it was hard, and it also says i state several times it's the Med!...

This time around on Parnate, and also a different manufacture of it i feel sharper...wich is weird...

So ehh Parnate isnt great on that aspect, Nardil increase GABA so thats probably worse.


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## dopamineimeandope

Parnate works almost as well as Nardil for most people, I think both work wonders for SA and depression. Parnate can work if Nardil doesn't. If I had to choose I'd take Parnate because of it's faster onset and metabolism to amphetamine (I think).

About the hypotension, I'm really not sure, it's not an exact science. But I wouldn't say that because the hypotension stopped it's not going to work. How long have you been on the dose? You might need more time. I know it's hard to wait, because SA and depression suck, but you won't know for sure unless you wait it out.


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## Caedmon

*Various thoughts*



Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> Does parnate ever work better for anxiety for people than nardil even tho it doesnt affect gaba? And which one is better in terms of cognition or thinking clearly?


As far as I know- statistically speaking - there is no difference. The dice are weighted equally. 75% response rate I think. (Welcome any corrections to these statements.) You will read reports of everyone's own roll of the dice but just keep in mind that that is only how they came out of it.

If I had to switch antidepressants - i.e. augmentation was not my best remaining option - I would probably switch to Nardil.

The elevation in GABA from Nardil may be responsible for side effects as much as anything... There is a clear trend of more/more severe side effects with Nardil (particularly weight gain, sexual sides, decreased energy). One should consider if the medication will be beneficial 5-10 years down the road and even the rest of your life. If you've gained 50 pounds in 5 years, will you feel as socially confident as you do the first six months? Not trying to be a downer on Nardil, just some questions to ask when evaluating the meds. Again, even though the dice is weighted toward long term weight gain, you may not roll that.

Often our expectations determine reality. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means thinking positively (what our better selves call "optimism"!). _But to the question "nardil/parnate better" my answer might be: it is whatever you think._


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## dopamineimeandope

Caedmon said:


> *Various thoughts*
> 
> As far as I know- statistically speaking - there is no difference. The dice are weighted equally. 75% response rate I think. (Welcome any corrections to these statements.) You will read reports of everyone's own roll of the dice but just keep in mind that that is only how they came out of it.
> 
> If I had to switch antidepressants - i.e. augmentation was not my best remaining option - I would probably switch to Nardil.
> 
> The elevation in GABA from Nardil may be responsible for side effects as much as anything... There is a clear trend of more/more severe side effects with Nardil (particularly weight gain, sexual sides, decreased energy). One should consider if the medication will be beneficial 5-10 years down the road and even the rest of your life. If you've gained 50 pounds in 5 years, will you feel as socially confident as you do the first six months? Not trying to be a downer on Nardil, just some questions to ask when evaluating the meds. Again, even though the dice is weighted toward long term weight gain, you may not roll that.
> 
> Often our expectations determine reality. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means thinking positively (what our better selves call "optimism"!). _But to the question "nardil/parnate better" my answer might be: it is whatever you think._


Yup, agree with all this. Parnate and Nardil are generally both effective. I think both have an equal chance of being effective, but it is said that Nardil is slightly better for SA. I haven't tried Parnate so I don't know for sure, but I can say that Nardil can work, and when it works it works well.

Totally agree about the GABA perhaps causing Nardil's more severe and pervasive side effects. Personally, I'd be okay with weight gain if I could experience the benefits of Nardil. But I'm young and somewhat healthy (I think ) so I'd be able to potentially lose the weight pretty easily. Even if I kept the weight, as long as I was healthy enough to function in life I think I'd be okay with it. I mean it wouldn't be desirable of course but I'd take it over severe anxiety and depression :/. Of course everyone is different.

About your last point, I definitely agree that optimistic thinking, and thinking that somehting will work, is a good way to go into treatment. I personally think it can induce a healthy placebo effect that can supplement the efficacy of the med, or maybe it can even be fully responsible for the benefits. The thing about placebo is that you never know if you're actually experiencing placebo because side effects can be placebo as well, and I wouldn't really care if I was experiencing placebo because the benefits would still be the same. But placebo trials are a good way to measure efficacy of meds.


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## zendog78

Caedmon said:


> *Various thoughts*
> 
> As far as I know- statistically speaking - there is no difference. The dice are weighted equally. 75% response rate I think. (Welcome any corrections to these statements.) You will read reports of everyone's own roll of the dice but just keep in mind that that is only how they came out of it.
> 
> If I had to switch antidepressants - i.e. augmentation was not my best remaining option - I would probably switch to Nardil.
> 
> The elevation in GABA from Nardil may be responsible for side effects as much as anything... There is a clear trend of more/more severe side effects with Nardil (particularly weight gain, sexual sides, decreased energy). One should consider if the medication will be beneficial 5-10 years down the road and even the rest of your life. If you've gained 50 pounds in 5 years, will you feel as socially confident as you do the first six months? Not trying to be a downer on Nardil, just some questions to ask when evaluating the meds. Again, even though the dice is weighted toward long term weight gain, you may not roll that.
> 
> Often our expectations determine reality. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means thinking positively (what our better selves call "optimism"!). _But to the question "nardil/parnate better" my answer might be: it is whatever you think._


Great post which reflects my own thinking on Nardil these days.
I still feel that everything I wrote in 2010 is current.

Nardil is a life changing drug and If you're disabled by social anxiety and no other drug works then its worth trying.

It is hard to live with though - for lots of people.


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## animalguy

I've been on Nardil a little over one month, and I am starting to notice some effects. I am also at 60mg. So far I have lost weight, 12 pounds in fact, and have no sexual sides. However I am eating more junk than I usually do and can see myself putting weight on with this medicine if I am not careful. Water retention can also be an issue. I believe I am losing weight because I am still in the hypomanic stages of Nardil, although that aspect has lessened and I am starting to feel the GABA increase.

I am more social, assertive, and proactive than I have been in a while, and in a much better mood. I worked 10 days in a row, got one hour of sleep the night before last, and worked another 10 hour shift yesterday and I was joking and happy the entire time! Got 10 hours of sleep last night (most I've gotten in weeks) so today should be interesting.


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1

I'm on 90 mg and have been for about a month now. Should I be concerned that once in a while I'll get a quick feeling that last for a few seconds that I'm about to past out and I need to sit down? It's like a sudden feeling of hypotension, but it happens while I'm standing or sitting, not when I go from one position to the other.


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## sadness

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> I'm on 90 mg and have been for about a month now. Should I be concerned that once in a while I'll get a quick feeling that last for a few seconds that I'm about to past out and I need to sit down? It's like a sudden feeling of hypotension, but it happens while I'm standing or sitting, not when I go from one position to the other.


Try increasing water intake and salt as this will help raise blood pressure.


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## V45561N

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> I'm on 90 mg and have been for about a month now. Should I be concerned that once in a while I'll get a quick feeling that last for a few seconds that I'm about to past out and I need to sit down? It's like a sudden feeling of hypotension, but it happens while I'm standing or sitting, not when I go from one position to the other.


Don't be concerned, just move slowly and sit down are just pause and stay still until your body regains balance. I'm used to be on 90mg and for the first week, when I would go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and I would be falling all over the place. And I also work as a waiter so I have to carry big heavy trays so I have to walk slow.

Bottom line, you'll be fine, just move slow and pause if your hypotension is kicking in, it will go away. And also, the hypotension DOES go away in time. I practically have barely any hypotension now, I've been on 87.7mg for a month now.


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## zendog78

animalguy said:


> I am more social, assertive, and proactive than I have been in a while, and in a much better mood. I worked 10 days in a row, got one hour of sleep the night before last, and worked another 10 hour shift yesterday and I was joking and happy the entire time! Got 10 hours of sleep last night (most I've gotten in weeks) so today should be interesting.


This time is gold. It won't last forever so what you need to do is push yourself against your fears.
Get on http://www.meetup.com/ and join a group. No better time to rewire your brain than now.

Congrats on feeling better


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## sadness

animalguy said:


> I've been on Nardil a little over one month, and I am starting to notice some effects. I am also at 60mg. So far I have lost weight, 12 pounds in fact, and have no sexual sides. However I am eating more junk than I usually do and can see myself putting weight on with this medicine if I am not careful. Water retention can also be an issue. I believe I am losing weight because I am still in the hypomanic stages of Nardil, although that aspect has lessened and I am starting to feel the GABA increase.
> 
> I am more social, assertive, and proactive than I have been in a while, and in a much better mood. I worked 10 days in a row, got one hour of sleep the night before last, and worked another 10 hour shift yesterday and I was joking and happy the entire time! Got 10 hours of sleep last night (most I've gotten in weeks) so today should be interesting.


Check out this thread:

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...y-does-nardil-stop-workiing-after-few-169975/

Be prepared that the initial hypomanic phase isn't the real effect Nardil is going to give you long term. Don't chase the dragon.


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## animalguy

zendog78 said:


> This time is gold. It won't last forever so what you need to do is push yourself against your fears.
> Get on http://www.meetup.com/ and join a group. No better time to rewire your brain than now.
> 
> Congrats on feeling better


I think this is still the hypomanic stage, what say you to the people who are successful in lowering there dose then raising it to keep Nardil from pooping out?


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## zendog78

animalguy said:


> I think this is still the hypomanic stage, what say you to the people who are successful in lowering there dose then raising it to keep Nardil from pooping out?


What do I say?? Good on them, do whatever it takes to make it work.
I tried varying the dose and having short breaks but it didn't make it work for me.


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## animalguy

zendog78 said:


> What do I say?? Good on them, do whatever it takes to make it work.
> I tried varying the dose and having short breaks but it didn't make it work for me.


thank you zendog. This is animalguy, with SAS news.


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## Narparit

doctorQ said:


> I am a doctor.
> The advice to lie to doctors and scam doctors only makes doctors more wary and less likely to prescribe. I will certainly publish this thread to my network. Doctors generally assume that people tell them the truth. When you lie to your doctor you increase the likelihood of a bad outcome.


Also publish you are prescribing benzodiazepines to your social-anxiety patients and making them addicted but still not nardil.


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## 546617

I tried a few ssri didnt work for me... how different is Nardil? Does it help social anxiety?


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## porkpiehat

zendog78 said:


> The medical literature states that you need to start at 3 per day and increase it fairly rapidly as fast as side effects will permit to at least 60mg (4 tablets) per day and keep it there for a month. This is to totally destroy the MAO in your brain. After you have done this you slowly reduce the medication to as low as 1 tablet every other day which will keep the MAO from building up again (though I have never heard of anybody who has managed to get by on this low a dose).


Are you saying this is the best way to take the med, ie., nuke your brain with a high dose and then drop to a low maintenance dose (keeping side effects low)? I've not heard this before.


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## Dana258

So i have a box life extension two per day mutlivitamins and in the ingredients it lists

Selenium [as sodium selenite, SelenoExcellÂ® high selenium yeast, Se-methyl L-selenocysteine]
200 mcg

Does anyone know if this is dangerous to take?


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## D'avjo

assume you mean with nardil, so no it wont be. There isnt a lot of stuff out there that is dangerous with nardil.


Too much selenium on the other hand can cause problems on its own.


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