# Kefir, Gut Bacteria and brain



## ndjokovic (Nov 23, 2013)

Kefir using Kefir grains is maybe the most powerful probiotic ever:





Recent scientific studies indicate that gut bacteria may play a pivotal role in brain chemistry and mental health. More specifically, the right type of "healthy bacteria" in your gut may treat/prevent depression and anxiety...
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...gut-bacteria-transplant-new-treatment-anxiety


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## ndjokovic (Nov 23, 2013)

I found out later that gut bacteria produces 95% of body's supply of serotonin !!!!!
http://www.healthcentral.com/anxiety/c/4182/162921/gut-brain-connection-anxiety/

that gut bacteria manufacture about 95 percent of the body's supply of serotonin? - See more at: http://www.healthcentral.com/anxiet...rain-connection-anxiety/#sthash.03VR1Q2Z.dpuf

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...5/03/probiotics-impact-brain-performance.aspx
that gut bacteria manufacture about 95 percent of the body's supply of serotonin? - See more at: http://www.healthcentral.com/anxiet...rain-connection-anxiety/#sthash.03VR1Q2Z.dpuf
that gut bacteria manufacture about 95 percent of the body's supply of serotonin? - See more at: http://www.healthcentral.com/anxiet...rain-connection-anxiety/#sthash.03VR1Q2Z.dpuf


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

Yes, yes gut flora is important, and seems to have an emerging role in mental health.

There's still a lot to uncover, however. So let's not get hasty and wrongly conclude eating some grain or yogurt is going to cure anxiety.


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## Gwynevere (Oct 6, 2013)

I very much doubt that the bacteria in kefir can survive digestion to make it to your gut. If you're having trouble in that area you would be better off using probiotic pills which are shielded from your digestion so it actually reaches the intestines.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

The majority of our serotonin is in fact inside our guts.

Me... I'm not against trying the alternative approach of wiping out gut bacteria and other related fungus, or reducing their presence a little.

That's why you see the fad diets which promote no gluten, I suppose.

My hunger has got out from underneath me the last couple of days, however yeah, little victories every so often.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

MrKappa said:


> The majority of our serotonin is in fact inside our guts.
> 
> Me... I'm not against trying the alternative approach of wiping out gut bacteria and other related fungus, or reducing their presence a little.
> 
> ...


Trying to destroy your gut bacteria is a really, really, really bad idea.


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## ndjokovic (Nov 23, 2013)

Sacrieur said:


> Trying to destroy your gut bacteria is a really, really, really bad idea.


If you used antibiotics some time in your live, you have a great chance that you have an unbalanced gut bacteria. The normal ratio of what is called "good" bacteria and "bad" bacteria is 85% good and 15% bad. Antibiotics kills all kind of bacteria in your gut (that's why it has intestinal side effects), the free space left by dead bacteria is occupied by "bad" bacteria, so the 85%:15% ratio is completely changed.
Scientist are just starting to discover the amazing strong link between brain disorders and gut. Lot of People succeed to cure OCD, autism, depression....using powerful probiotic/fermented foods.
I think that the pharmaceutical probiotics pills are not effective since most of the bacteria will die before you buy the capsules.
The best thing to do is to culture those bacteria at home, specially using Kefir grains. While Yogurt contains only 3 strains of bacteria, Kefir contains far more strains and yeasts:
*Bacteria*

_Lactobacillus acidophilus_
_Lactobacillus brevis_
_Lactobacillus casei_
_Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus_
_Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. delbrueckii_
_Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis_
_Lactobacillus helveticus_
_Lactobacillus keﬁranofaciens subsp. keﬁranofaciens_
_Lactobacillus keﬁri_
_Lactobacillus paracasei subsp. paracasei_
_Lactobacillus plantarum_
_Lactobacillus rhamnosus_
_Lactobacillus sake_
_Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris_
_Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis_
_Lactococcus lactis_
_Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris_
_Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. dextranicum_
_Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. mesenteroides_
_Pseudomonas_
_Pseudomonas fluorescens_
_Pseudomonas putida_
_Streptococcus thermophilus _ *
Yeasts*

_Candida humilis_
_Kazachstania unispora_
_Kazachstania exigua_
_Kazachstania exigua_
_Kluyveromyces siamensis_
_Kluyveromyces lactis_
_Kluyveromyces marxianus_
_Saccharomyces cerevisiae_
_Saccharomyces martiniae_
_ Saccharomyces unisporus

The bacterias and Yeasts colonize your gut, they are little micro-machines that produce serontonin, B vitamine, and communicate with the immune system.
When you are born, your gut is free of these bacteria, but you get them from your mother's breast milk. Artificial milk contains almost no bacteria.
_


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

Let's be clear here, there is no cure for autism. There is a correlation between autism and GI problems, but causality has _not_ been established, let alone a cure.

I'm aware of how antibiotics work.


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## Aerovis (Feb 28, 2014)

I was interested in this for a while, still am, but it has taken a back burner as unfortunately nothing is rarely as effective and works as quickly as manufactured scientifically created pharmaceuticals/drugs.

That being said, if you're not already aware, you'd appreciate the book- Gut and Psychology Syndrome. I believe the authors last name is Campbell-McBride.


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## Aerovis (Feb 28, 2014)

ndjokovic said:


> The bacterias and Yeasts colonize your gut, they are little micro-machines that produce serontonin, B vitamine, and communicate with the immune system.
> When you are born, your gut is free of these bacteria, but you get them from your mother's breast milk. Artificial milk contains almost no bacteria.
> [/FONT][/I]


Nah, you are sterile before birth, but you get most of this and are initially colonized from your mother's vagina. There's a significance in the difference of gut bacteria between those vaginally birthed and those born via-C section. The ones from a C-section show more colonization of the bacteria that lives on your skin. You'll also get this colonization from the skin when you're breast feeding (skin contact), but the one time down the birth canal exposes you to useful colonization that is difficult to get otherwise.

Imagine the weaknesses you're exposed to (statistically) if you're a formula fed c-section baby.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

Sacrieur said:


> Trying to destroy your gut bacteria is a really, really, really bad idea.


I'm a recovering bipolar / skitzo (mostly low functioning depressed, in years prior). Personally I think putting my system in duress is one of the best moves so far.

I'm all for probiotics, but a healthy attack on all biotics, with supplementary immuno boosting or immuno modulating experiments has proven interesting. Saying the least.

How I feel alive at this moment compared to several years ago, well...

I don't believe I have ever tried to destroy anything. No drinking back any bleach or formaldehyde (intentionally), but rather changed my diet and focused on herbs and nutrition aimed at making change with my overall health.

You are a pretty smart guy Sacrieur, if you don't mind me saying. What do you think of this phenominon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zopiclone



> The side-effect most commonly seen in clinical trials is taste alteration or dysgeusia (bitter, metallic taste, which is usually fleeting in most users but can persist until the drug's half-life has expired).


I tried that stuff probably over a decade ago, and yeah, totally gave me metallic taste in the mouth. I suspect in term of "frequency" or "amplitude", thing may go, bitter, soapy, sharply toxic and then metallic in flavor. Somehow all related with the same biological function?

More on topic though, yeah, some of the Centenarian cultures, have goats involved with their daily diets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone

http://www.andersenchiro.com/FOODS CONSUMED BY THE HEALTHIEST PEOPLE part 3.shtml



> they drink goats' milk daily....(that is) extra healthy...due to a plant they (goats) eat called Sardinian dwarf curry which has anti inflammatory and anti bacterial properties.....


If it helps, in the Bible, there is a promised land, "The Land of Milk and Honey".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_and_Honey



> The original expression, "a land flowing with milk and honey", is a reference in the Hebrew Bible to the agricultural abundance of the Land of Israel. The phrase is used in the Book of Exodus during Moses' vision of the burning bush.[3:1-22]


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## ndjokovic (Nov 23, 2013)

Sacrieur said:


> Yes, yes gut flora is important, and seems to have an emerging role in mental health.
> 
> There's still a lot to uncover, however. So let's not get hasty and wrongly conclude *eating some grain* or yogurt is going to cure anxiety.


Well, lot of people benefited from Kefir to treat their mood disorders, and all these scientific papers on the power of probiotics to affect the brain. You also seem like you are underestimating those grains, tbh, I also did . Those grains contain advanced micro-machines that stay at your gut and produce 95% of you body's serotonin and B vitamins.



Gwynevere said:


> I very much doubt that the bacteria in kefir can survive digestion to make it to your gut. If you're having trouble in that area you would be better off using probiotic pills which are shielded from your digestion so it actually reaches the intestines.


Plenty of these bacteria die because of stomach acid, but some of them make it to the gut (drinking Kefir in an empty stomach can help them). they also replicate _very_ fast. So even if only a few make it, they can quickly populate your gut.
The bacteria in probiotic pill may be dead before even you buy them. I am talking here about home made Kefir, here is the website of the father of Kefir in the world:
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html



MrKappa said:


> The majority of our serotonin is in fact inside our guts.
> 
> Me... I'm not against trying the alternative approach of wiping out gut bacteria and other related fungus, or reducing their presence a little.
> 
> ...


Just be careful in using home made Kefir, it is so powerful that the first week I used it, I got huge die-off symptoms, I have got bacterial war in my gut, this is good sign, but it can be strong. You should start slowly 1/4 cup a day, then increase over the time.



Sacrieur said:


> Let's be clear here, there is no cure for autism. There is a correlation between autism and GI problems, but *causality* has _not_ been established, let alone a cure.
> 
> I'm aware of how antibiotics work.


Recent discoveries confirm the causality effect:
http://www.nature.com/news/bacterium-can-reverse-autism-like-behaviour-in-mice-1.14308



Aerovis said:


> I was interested in this for a while, still am, but it has taken a back burner as unfortunately nothing is rarely as effective and works as quickly as manufactured scientifically created pharmaceuticals/drugs.
> 
> That being said, if you're not already aware, you'd appreciate the book- Gut and Psychology Syndrome. I believe the authors last name is Campbell-McBride.


Thank you for the book. Well, it is an obligation to have pharmaceuticals at home, as you say they are quick, but only good in the short term, as they have nasty effects on long term.
The gut bacterial approach here is for long term, since the role of drinking Kefir and other fermented food is to restore the beneficial bacteria in the gut, this takes time if you don't want to get die-off symptoms. When installed, these micro machines then start to produce molecules like serotonin, B vitamins,...



Aerovis said:


> Nah, you are sterile before birth, but you get most of this and are initially colonized from your mother's vagina. There's a significance in the difference of gut bacteria between those vaginally birthed and those born via-C section. The ones from a C-section show more colonization of the bacteria that lives on your skin. You'll also get this colonization from the skin when you're breast feeding (skin contact), but the one time down the birth canal exposes you to useful colonization that is difficult to get otherwise.
> 
> Imagine the weaknesses you're exposed to (statistically) if you're a formula fed c-section baby.


Thanks for this information, but I mean that you get those bacteria from external source like the birth canal and specially breast milk:
http://www.dukehealth.org/health_li...fferent-gut-flora-growth-than-infant-formulas

Anyway, the kefir milk is easy to make at home, the only thing you need is the Kefir grains, here's the best website about Kefir and how you get Kefir grains:

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html


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## UltraMagnus (Jan 25, 2014)

Gwynevere said:


> I very much doubt that the bacteria in kefir can survive digestion to make it to your gut. If you're having trouble in that area you would be better off using probiotic pills which are shielded from your digestion so it actually reaches the intestines.


I don't know much about kefir, but couldn't you put some grains in enteric capsules?


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## ndjokovic (Nov 23, 2013)

UltraMagnus said:


> I don't know much about kefir, but couldn't you put some grains in enteric capsules?


This is a good idea, but I think there's no need to capsules. Last month, I drunk Kefir on empty stomach in the morning, and even swallowed some tiny Kefir grains (lots of bacteria). I then got huge die-off symptoms for 4 days, also called Herxheimer Reaction, I think it is because the acid level of stomach in the morning is low, so lot of bacteria survived the stomach and make it to the gut. 
If you want to put it in capsules, just put a little, because Kefir is a very powerful probiotic.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

ndjokovic said:


> Well, lot of people benefited from Kefir to treat their mood disorders, and all these scientific papers on the power of probiotics to affect the brain. You also seem like you are underestimating those grains, tbh, I also did . Those grains contain advanced micro-machines that stay at your gut and produce 95% of you body's serotonin and B vitamins.


Yeah, but you have to remember when evaluating anything, is that there are always going to be positives and negatives, and those who refuse to address the potential negatives in a situation are potentially highly invested into commercial interests.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird...is-STOMACH-which-turns-food-into-pure-alcohol

It's a fun article. Sure, probiotics are great, but yeah, I practice with alot of supplements and the last bottle of probiotics that was supposed to help me turned my guts inside out. So... to each thier own.

Obviously some people are lactose intolerant, and others are yeast factories. Two different phylums in the animal kingdom, really, but yeah.

There are plenty of bacterias that are simply not good with some people. That article I posted about the centaurians. You'll notice they mentioned a specific diet the goats were being fed.

We still get mad cow deaseases. There is a long way that everyone has to go before everyone is properly aware of the various situations.

Neat horror story... this is how I feel the majority of the web is these days...

http://www.macleans.ca/society/the-new-worry-epidemic/

So... don't panic on anything, enjoy the good with the bad, and evaluate everything with the pluses and the negatives, rather than doing the hidebound reactionary knee jerk thing. That's totally the norm.

If you find anything that is valuable, trust me, myself and a handful of others really do take the potential of a positive to heart, and there will always be negatives brought up to herd the sheeple.

Let's be honest, is stripping all the nutritional value out of yogurt and then introducing adulterated biotics into the culture to validate a marketing pitch?

So... pro-biotics is obvious a sales pitch, every much as herbal detox.

You can get away with one of those terms, but the other one people will never understand. Surprised really since anti-biotics defined a whole generation.



ndjokovic said:


> Just be careful in using home made Kefir, it is so powerful that the first week I used it, I got huge die-off symptoms, I have got bacterial war in my gut, this is good sign, but it can be strong. You should start slowly 1/4 cup a day, then increase over the time.


Me personally, I'm on farm colostrum and baby formula. It is a well known fact that people love their animals and babies more than people these days. Totally undecided on the collustrum though as it seems as if it's got some heavy preservative stuff happening. But yeah, that warm over in the brain, that is sort of brain cloudy but not quite brain cloudy, who knows? Maybe there is benefit with that.

I've got the powdered goat milk happening though. That stuff, you know right away by taste that it's something the body really wants. Whether it's my symbiotic brethren or myself, is up in the air.



ndjokovic said:


> Recent discoveries confirm the causality effect:
> http://www.nature.com/news/bacterium...n-mice-1.14308


Thank god there is someone who thinks logically, and with possibility.

It's a horror story to many though... most people couldn't imagine their mother passing on bacteria into their child.

That could be entirely the wrong way of looking at things as well. A mother may have a compromised immune system, failing to nourish a child against the overwhelming threat of bacteria to begin with.

That's why herbs which have powerful anti-microbiological functions, which are traditionally front line medicines against serious life threatening disease, are responsible for birth defects, as a side effect.

http://www.cancer.org/treatment/tre...emedicine/herbsvitaminsandminerals/pau-d-arco



> Pau d'arco has some potentially serious side effects. Some of the chemicals in pau d'arco, such as hydroquinone, are known to be toxic. High doses taken internally may cause liver and kidney damage. In animal studies, birth defects and deaths occurred among rats whose mothers were given lapachol during pregnancy. Pau d'arco should be avoided, especially by women who are pregnant or breastfeeding.


Right?

What is there? A food Pyramid?

Let's modernize the situation, and make it a new triangle.

Nutrition - Immunology - Pathology


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## ndjokovic (Nov 23, 2013)

MrKappa said:


> Yeah, but you have to remember when evaluating anything, is that there are always going to be positives and negatives, and those who refuse to address the potential negatives in a situation are potentially highly invested into commercial interests.
> 
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird...is-STOMACH-which-turns-food-into-pure-alcohol


This guy didn't get this problem because of probiotics !! He even tried probiotics as a treatment !! Did you read the whole article ?



MrKappa said:


> It's a fun article. Sure, probiotics are great, but yeah, I practice with alot of supplements and the last bottle of probiotics that was supposed to help me turned my guts inside out. So... to each thier own.


I explained this phenomenon on my posts above, it is called *die-off symptom, **Herxheimer Reaction *or* healing crisis*, you can google this to learn about it. I explained how I get this my first week because I ate so many bacteria, I got huge gut pain, gas, fever... You can see it as a negative point, but you can avoid it by introducing bacteria slowly to your gut as I explained in my other posts. Unfortunately, many people who get this nasty reaction quit the diet, thinking that something wrong is happening. Start drinking Kefir gradually as I mentioned in the others comments to avoid these problems.



MrKappa said:


> Obviously some people are *lactose intolerant*, and others are yeast factories. Two different phylums in the animal kingdom, really, but yeah.


Kefir contains very low levels of lactose, because the bacteria in it consumes most of the lactose, it is a perfect drink for lactose intolerant:

http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20030530/kefir-helps-lactose-intolerance



MrKappa said:


> Let's be honest, is stripping all the nutritional value out of yogurt and then introducing adulterated biotics into the culture to validate a marketing pitch?
> 
> So... pro-biotics is obvious a sales pitch, every much as herbal detox.
> 
> You can get away with one of those terms, but the other one people will never understand. Surprised really since anti-biotics defined a whole generation.


I just want to mention that you cannot buy Kefir grains from stores, you can get them for free from people who culture them, all you have to do is to have two teaspoons of grains, then they will grow as you change them from batch to batch. It is cheap, some people will only ask for transport fees, if they are far away from you. Kefri grains double their size as they replicate in about 20 days, you can then share them with your family and friends.
Don't buy the probiotics on the market they are expensive and not as effective as Kefir.



MrKappa said:


> It's a horror story to many though... most people couldn't imagine their mother passing on bacteria into their child.


Also most people don't know that more then 90% of cells in human body are bacteria, and that we each carry in our intestines 1.5 to 2 kilograms of bacteria !!!
Recent studies consider Gut flora as a forgotten organ.


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## ndjokovic (Nov 23, 2013)

You can get Kefir grains here:
http://kefirlady.com/prices.html
They are cheap, and replicate quickly so you can share them with friends. That's how I get them, a member of my family gave me only 2 tablespoons, now I have a lot of them and shared them with other people.
*
*


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## Aerovis (Feb 28, 2014)

ndjokovic said:


> Thank you for the book. Well, it is an obligation to have pharmaceuticals at home, as you say they are quick, but only good in the short term, as they have nasty effects on long term.
> The gut bacterial approach here is for long term, since the role of drinking Kefir and other fermented food is to restore the beneficial bacteria in the gut, this takes time if you don't want to get die-off symptoms. When installed, these micro machines then start to produce molecules like serotonin, B vitamins,...
> 
> Thanks for this information, but I mean that you get those bacteria from external source like the birth canal and specially breast milk:
> ...


Totally, kefir is a great option to look in to. It will definitely help gut health, not sure how long and on what a therapeutic dose you'd have to be on to really get some therapeutic benefits. I was going to start making my own kefi, but due to its active yeast content and tyramine from the fermenting of it, I'm afraid it poses a contraindicated risk to the medication i'm on. But for someone else not on an MAOI.. definitely look in to that book and start making your own kefir. Try kefir with local raw milk if its sourced locally and available.


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## UltraMagnus (Jan 25, 2014)

Aerovis said:


> Totally, kefir is a great option to look in to. It will definitely help gut health, not sure how long and on what a therapeutic dose you'd have to be on to really get some therapeutic benefits. I was going to start making my own kefi, but due to its active yeast content and tyramine from the fermenting of it, I'm afraid it poses a contraindicated risk to the medication i'm on. But for someone else not on an MAOI.. definitely look in to that book and start making your own kefir. Try kefir with local raw milk if its sourced locally and available.


I was concerned about that, but according to http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00217-010-1258-y



> tyramine concentrations of kefir samples changed from non detectable values to 12.8 mg/l.


Now, as I understand you need 10-25mg of tyramine for hypertensive crisis, so you would need to drink 780ml of kefir for there to be any risk. This is assuming you have really high tyramine kefir and you are highly sensitive to tyramine. I doubt drinking the stuff by the liter is a very good idea anyway.

I'm skeptical, but it's definitely something I want to try, there does seem to be some science behind it.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

ndjokovic said:


> This guy didn't get this problem because of probiotics !! He even tried probiotics as a treatment !! Did you read the whole article ?


Yeah, I'm on the fence regarding the whole thing seeing as the images are tongue in cheek and sugar metabolism in a large majority of us, involves the conversion of sugar to alcohol in the upper gut. (or it may be the liver, or both or neither, can't recall the full details and need to re-research)

Fun article...

I don't believe the accuracy on this 100%, but I found the video extremely informative.








ndjokovic said:


> I explained this phenomenon on my posts above, it is called *die-off symptom, **Herxheimer Reaction *or* healing crisis*


Yes, when I eat something and I get painful gas, I imagine that might be some sort of toxic chemical reaction happening.

However, I am convinced that a specific herbal I took, which gave me considerable gas, was killing a bacteria without harmful toxins. So I am on the fence with that as well. Whether some herbs, are capable of clearing out bad bacteria cleanly, or whether overgrowth lead to long term minor waste products in the system, continually all the time, or whether the immune system on it's own can kill and clean out without toxins. It is a jungle of a mess, so looking at possibilities is what makes me focus on my eating habits, and body reactions a little more.

Sometimes when I eat a lot of sugar, I instantly go to sleep. Whether that is a yeast overgrowth, and sugar being converted to high levels of alcohol, putting me to sleep, or whether it is simply my brain overloading and shutting down, I don't truly know. Still working on getting more in tune with my body in reaction with diet.



> Recent studies consider Gut flora as a forgotten organ.


Interesting, you may find this wiki page highly informative from a historical perspective, and possibly relevant in some minor ways with modern theories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism

The jist of it is, if someone has a burdened organ, their temperament changes, they get more phlegm, or more black bile, and bile effects the stool, and so on...

In terms of anxieties... I will admit 100% that dairy is natures best way of relieving anxiety with me. Few exceptions. Warm milk, has a soothing effect. Yogurts, cheeses, not so much, may try keifer. Trying the colostrum at the moment.


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