# When people lump different negatives together



## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

We all know that a large number of men are after sex -- although not all are and, therefore, the ones that are after sex give the ones that aren't (such as myself) a bad name. But here I will talk about something slightly different. If you ask women why they don't like OLDER men, they often tell you that older men are just after sex. But why would being after sex be specifically prevelent among the older part of male population? It makes no sense. From biological point of view, younger people are more interested in sex, and from social point of view older people have more insentive to want to settle down. So I guess what happens is that women lump different things they find unattractive together: they don't like older men, they don't like men that are after sex, therefore older men must be after sex. 

I think this "lumping things together" psychology is a major problem in dating. So, if I am being sloppy and forget to brush my hair, then I must also be after sex. Right? I just wish people were to evaluate separate things separately instead of condemning the person as a whole.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

Aren't you lumping things together yourself?


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

good god fella.

Go and see a 25 year old prostitute will ya


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

causalset said:


> *So, if I am being sloppy and forget to brush my hair, then I must also be after sex. Right?* I just wish people were to evaluate separate things separately instead of condemning the person as a whole.


Yep, that is exactly what is going through women's minds when they see someone who doesn't give a **** about their appearance. I am starting to suspect you can actually read minds.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

doe deer said:


>


lol that's how I felt when I read this:



> So, if I am being sloppy and forget to brush my hair, then I must also be after sex.


Not only is that not something someone would assume, they'd actually be more likely to assume the complete opposite.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

causalset said:


> So I guess what happens is that *women lump different things they find unattractive together*: they don't like older men, they don't like men that are after sex, therefore older men must be after sex.


I see guys lump together _older women_ with _women being so sexually experienced they may as well be prostitutes_. "All used up," those are the words most often tossed about.

A. Guys don't like older women.

B. Guys don't like really sexually experienced women who are practically prostitutes.

A + B = C, which is, older women are practically prostitutes. Ew!

C = _I'm_ practically a prostitute, even though I'm a virgin...? :um Huh...

...

I. e., lumping weird, random, and undesirable things together knows no gender. :smile2:


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

tehuti88 said:


> I see guys lump together _older women_ with _women being so sexually experienced they may as well be prostitutes_. "All used up," those are the words most often tossed about.
> 
> A. Guys don't like older women.
> 
> ...


I didn't say guys are any better. I agree that both genders are shallow, I am simply focusing on the aspect of it that affects me the most. This being said, I disagree with what most guys say, including what you just mentioned. No I don't view older women as all used up or prostitutes or whatever. I am sorry that guys are viewing you that way, its really unfair towards you.

Here is why I personally want women that are in their 20-s or early 30-s: I feel like I missed out on this and I hate the idea of missing out on something and never getting to make up for it. So, if I were to have a normal life back when I was that age, I would have been more than happy to be with an older woman now that I am older. But unfortunately due to my Asperger I missed out on this so I wish I could make up now, better late then never.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> lol that's how I felt when I read this:
> 
> Not only is that not something someone would assume, they'd actually be more likely to assume the complete opposite.


Assuming "complete opposite" isn't any better. By "complete opposite" you don't mean just lack of interest in sex, you mean lack of any and all emotional needs, aka dehumanizing me. And, similarly, saying I am after sex also assumes I lack any emotional needs *besides* sex. So which is worse: saying I am sex-obsessed maniac who doesn't care about anything else, or saying I am complete robot that is devoid of any emotions altogether? I would say one is just as bad as the other.

I wish people could realize the REAL situation, namely: I tend to focus on "bigger" things and gloss over "details". Thats a common trait; the only problem is that what I view as "details" isn't the same as what everyone else views as details. To me, things like emotional connection are "big things" while things such as whether I brushed my hair are just details. Others probably disagree. But that doesn't mean I completely lack any kind of emotions.

And besides I am not being stubborn: I am more than willing to try and change those details. It just that it takes practice and I myself not notice things. Besides, even if I do change my habbits, wouldn't people still be remembering how I used to be? And finally and besides what should I do with all those years I have already lost? So I am bitter about those things and wish people were more forgiving, but I am more than happy in trying to meet them half way in trying to improve.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

causalset said:


> *Assuming "complete opposite" isn't any better. By "complete opposite" you don't mean just lack of interest in sex, you mean lack of any and all emotional needs, aka dehumanizing me.* And, similarly, saying I am after sex also assumes I lack any emotional needs *besides* sex. So which is worse: saying I am sex-obsessed maniac who doesn't care about anything else, or saying I am complete robot that is devoid of any emotions altogether? I would say one is just as bad as the other.
> 
> I wish people could realize the REAL situation, namely: I tend to focus on "bigger" things and gloss over "details". Thats a common trait; the only problem is that what I view as "details" isn't the same as what everyone else views as details. To me, things like emotional connection are "big things" while things such as whether I brushed my hair are just details. Others probably disagree. But that doesn't mean I completely lack any kind of emotions.
> 
> And besides I am not being stubborn: I am more than willing to try and change those details. It just that it takes practice and I myself not notice things. Besides, even if I do change my habbits, wouldn't people still be remembering how I used to be? And finally and besides what should I do with all those years I have already lost? So I am bitter about those things and wish people were more forgiving, but I am more than happy in trying to meet them half way in trying to improve.


I don't think most people connect desire for sex with other emotional needs that way. Do you not meet basic hygiene requirements? I don't think the standards for presentation are that high for a guy in the West. Most guys meet them easily.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I don't think most people connect desire for sex with other emotional needs that way.


I was referring specifically to the context of @Persephone The Dread 
reply, and the context was about being sloppy. I think being sloppy gets people to assume "antisocial" rather than just "anti-sex", at least thats how their reaction looks like.



Persephone The Dread said:


> Do you not meet basic hygiene requirements? I don't think the standards for presentation are that high for a guy in the West. Most guys meet them easily.


Judging by the feedback I get I don't. In the past I didn't take shower, but 2-3 years ago I started taking shower yet this didn't help. So apparently my messy hair and forgetting to tuck in the shirt make it "look like" I didn't take shower. That plus also when I get busy I might end up taking shower every other day or every third day (such was the case when the bus driver was concerned about my "sanitary condition") and I guess I don't realize that skipping just one or two days is enough to stink, I thought that skipping the whole week is what would get me to stink (which is what I used to do few years ago). Either that or maybe its my hair which IS messy which makes people assume I stink even when I don't.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

causalset said:


> I was referring specifically to the context of @Persephone The Dread
> reply, and the context was about being sloppy. I think being sloppy gets people to assume "antisocial" rather than just "anti-sex", at least thats how their reaction looks like.


I am Persephone The Dread :| yeah you would also be assumed to be antisocial but it depends on the extent you stand out as not meeting social norms. It's really difficult to be perceived as not putting in effort as a guy, you'd have to never shower, never wash your clothes, and have long/matted hair or something. You're far more likely to be perceived as antisocial based on body language.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> That plus also when I get busy I might end up taking shower every other day or every third day (such was the case when the bus driver was concerned about my "sanitary condition") and I guess I don't realize that skipping just one or two days is enough to stink, I thought that skipping the whole week is what would get me to stink (which is what I used to do few years ago). .


No shower for a week...was it the same underwear for the entire week?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BrokeTech (Jun 1, 2017)

causalset said:


> If you ask women why they don't like OLDER men, they often tell you that older men are just after sex.


I have never heard this before and have never seen it anywhere online. I actually tend to see more women who prefer older men because they think they're more mature and/or are more "settled," i.e. they have more money and material things. But I did also just see online elsewhere a guy referring to "older" as being early 20s, and I know a lot of people here are in their teens and 20s. So. I guess it depends on reference point, to some degree.

Personally, I think guys are after sex because *that's how you all talk*. Even just looking at this forum...I've seen a girl here make a post about dating and a guy respond talking about coming and having sex with her; I see endless whining about being a virgin from guys; I've seen a guy talking about going to see a prostitute to lose his virginity; and I've seen a guy talking about how he wished he took a pic of a female co-worker's body before he lost his job (which, to me, is sexual, i.e. something to "fap" to--oh, yeah, I see the word "fap" and variations thereof a lot here, too).

There just seems like nothing that is not reduced to sex with guys. Look at my examples--one is related to *work*, one is related to *dating*, and the stuff about virginity and prostitutes is really related to having *SA*, i.e. *guys here come off as the main reason having SA bothers them is how it affects their ability to have sex*.

I don't follow each and every guy's posts here, so I can't say that every single guy here does these things I'm talking about. But don't try to put the fact that a ton of guys make everything about sex somehow off on women or "people." Some of you just need to realize how things that come out of your mouth/off your fingertips sound/seem sometimes, even if that's not how they're meant.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I am Persephone The Dread :|


No I am Persephone The Dreadicus





 @causalset look, re the whole showering / hygeine / appearance thing:

1. Just shower every day, brush your hair, better yet, get it cut and style it
2. Women have basic standards of hygiene, deal with it
3. Women like a man who takes pride in their appearance
4. Women like more physically attractive men (and the way you become more attractive is you take pride in your appearance)
5. There is nothing wrong with wanting sex
6. Other men wanting sex isn't giving you a bad name
7. Women in their mid 20's - mid 30's do like older men, they just need to shower etc and not look like crap on purpose
8. Your inability to bother to shower and take care of your hygiene isn't correlated to you wanting sex in the minds of women.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

causalset said:


> I just wish people were to evaluate separate things separately instead of condemning the person as a whole.


It's human nature to make sweeping generalizations and snap judgements.

Better to accept it and learn how to deal with it than to waste your time complaining about it, analyzing it, and wishing other people would change.


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## HiddenFathoms (Jul 18, 2017)

:con thinking about whether anything bores me more than generalizations.

nope.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> No I am Persephone The Dreadicus


lol


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

Now you're finally starting to understand women my friend.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

BrokeTech said:


> I have never heard this before and have never seen it anywhere online. I actually tend to see more women who prefer older men because they think they're more mature and/or are more "settled," i.e. they have more money and material things. But I did also just see online elsewhere a guy referring to "older" as being early 20s, and I know a lot of people here are in their teens and 20s. So. I guess it depends on reference point, to some degree.


I am 37.



BrokeTech said:


> Personally, I think guys are after sex because *that's how you all talk*. Even just looking at this forum...I've seen a girl here make a post about dating and a guy respond talking about coming and having sex with her; I see endless whining about being a virgin from guys; I've seen a guy talking about going to see a prostitute to lose his virginity; and I've seen a guy talking about how he wished he took a pic of a female co-worker's body before he lost his job (which, to me, is sexual, i.e. something to "fap" to--oh, yeah, I see the word "fap" and variations thereof a lot here, too).
> 
> There just seems like nothing that is not reduced to sex with guys. Look at my examples--one is related to *work*, one is related to *dating*, and the stuff about virginity and prostitutes is really related to having *SA*, i.e. *guys here come off as the main reason having SA bothers them is how it affects their ability to have sex*.
> 
> I don't follow each and every guy's posts here, so I can't say that every single guy here does these things I'm talking about. But don't try to put the fact that a ton of guys make everything about sex somehow off on women or "people." Some of you just need to realize how things that come out of your mouth/off your fingertips sound/seem sometimes, even if that's not how they're meant.


I agree that the things you just mentioned sound very graphic and disturbing. The only point here is that I am not those guys and, hterefore, I don't like being blamed for things THEY say which *I* would never say. Now here is something *I* actually said: https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/getting-women-to-approach-me.16590/ (on that other forum I go under name Vanadium50). As I was clarifying in my subsequent replies, I didn't mean the original post to be talking about sex, yet that is how I came across. Incidentally, that post is also where I got an idea that they assume that older guys are after sex. Now, what is your opinion of what I wrote and the reaction I got?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I am Persephone The Dread :| yeah you would also be assumed to be antisocial but it depends on the extent you stand out as not meeting social norms. It's really difficult to be perceived as not putting in effort as a guy, you'd have to never shower, never wash your clothes, and have long/matted hair or something. You're far more likely to be perceived as antisocial based on body language.


All I konw is that this is the feedback I was getting. In fact, several years ago, I was thinking that it was just me not knowing how to start and continue the conversation. But then after getting repeated feedback that I don't shower from many sources I finally realized "aha so actually people don't like me because I don't shower but instead of simply telling me this they are doing subtle things to make it difficult for me to carry the conversation"


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

Sweet fancy moses.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

causalset said:


> All I konw is that this is the feedback I was getting. In fact, several years ago, I was thinking that it was just me not knowing how to start and continue the conversation. But then after getting repeated feedback that I don't shower from many sources I finally realized "aha so actually people don't like me because I don't shower but instead of simply telling me this they are doing subtle things to make it difficult for me to carry the conversation"


It was their way of letting you down nicely.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

nubly said:


> It was their way of letting you down nicely.


Yeah, and being "let down nicely" is one of the things I detest the most. First, it makes me waste lots of time thinking "hmm, maybe I should have said this instead of that, maybe I should have arrived earlier, maybe slightly later" when actually they just don't want to talk to me. Second, once I realize this, it makes me feel stupid. Thirdly, I am not given an opportunity to defend myself since nobody told me what it is they dislike about me so that I could respond. And, last but not least, it took me that many years to realize I need to take a shower, and it could have taken me a lot less time if only people were to actually tell me this. Well, sure, people DID tell me about shower, but it wasn't the same people that were "letting me down", which is precisely the problem. On the one hand, I kept being let down for some mysterious reasons I couldn't solve, and on the other hand there were those OTHER people nagging me about such irrelvancies as shower, and I never put the dots together.

But yeah I agree it is a way of letting me down nicely. More traditional way of doing it is when they are "busy" and I can't find the "convenient time" as to when they are "less busy". Whereas in my case it is us "not finding the way to continue the conversation" and I can't find a "conventient way" of continuing it. Both are equally frustrating and unfair.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

How about just stop treating everything as a mathematical equation where if you just find the solution - like arriving at the precise time others won't get upset - things will magically fall into place.

Did you change or not?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> How about just stop treating everything as a mathematical equation where if you just find the solution - like arriving at the precise time others won't get upset - things will magically fall into place.


It depends on the context. In vast majority of my interactions people simply don't want to talk to me and try to let me down nicely through "mishaps in timing" or whatever. But then there is a small minority of interactions when people in fact DID want to talk to me and I genuinely think mishaps is what ruined it. Like the two girls described here http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...unity-with-either-of-those-two-girls-2039721/ seem to fall into those small minority of cases, which is why I am obsessing about those. And notice how I never talked about the timing of when I walked into church: because in case of the church they just try to let me down easy regardless of my timing. But those two girls seem to be different.

Now, if you ask why I am concerned about small minority of interactions, simple: since in vast majority of cases I have no chance, my only way out of this mess is to grasp on the small minoirty of situations when I do have a chance. Once I successfully start to interact with one or two girls, they will introduce me to their friends and/or others whom they don't know will be more inclined to talk to me since they see I am not always alone, and so forth. Basically I need to find some door, however tiny that door might be, which is what I am doing.



caveman8 said:


> Did you change or not?


I would have, if people were to give me constructive criticism instead of giving up on me.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Forever Me said:


> I get what he means, you see a 21 year old girl with a 35 year old guy, you hear comments like "what do they ever talk about? He must just want her for sex."


Exactly!!!



Forever Me said:


> I can really relate to that. Not taking a picture, that's too far, but I have felt really upset because I forgot someone's name so I couldn't look at her pictures on Facebook. Yes, to fap. But I don't think that means we're just thinking sexually. When you have anxiety and don't really know how to connect with others, it can make you create a lot of feelings from a shallow interaction. You obsess over their face and cuteness instead of their personality because you'll never really talk to them.


And now you just invalidated yourself. Unlike you, I don't fap on any photos. The only reason I might want her facebook photo is to hope to connect to her through facebook, period (so a photo would be as good as a name or whatever will enable me to find her) but then again, connecting through facebook seems useless anyway since most people on facebook don't care about ever becoming real friends in the real world. And once again it has nothing to do with fapping, what I want is emotional connection and feeling accepted, and fapping won't do that. Thats why I think my concerns are more valid than yours.

However, if you replace "fap" with "emotional validation" then I can see your point. When I want to befriend any and every woman just because of *my* emotional needs, without knowing anything about her, that is also pretty weird. And my response to this is the same as yours: if people were to tell me about themselves then I would be liking them for things I know about them, but if they aren't telling me anything about themselves, what else am I to do?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

OK, here we go. :smile2:



causalset said:


> Here is why I personally want women that are in their 20-s or early 30-s: I feel like I missed out on this and I hate the idea of missing out on something and never getting to make up for it. So, if I were to have a normal life back when I was that age, I would have been more than happy to be with an older woman now that I am older. But unfortunately due to my Asperger I missed out on this so I wish I could make up now, better late then never.


Thinking that you've missed out out by not being with a young woman suggests they have something to offer that older women don't, something you value more than what an older woman might be more likely to offer than a younger one.

The obvious thing would be a more youthful body, which suggests that your main concerns are sex and/or child bearing, not who they are as people.

1) Is this accurate?
2) Can you see why this would make you appear shallow?

If these aren't your main concerns and you actually want a connection, love, etc. then you should find whoever can provide that for you, whether younger or older.

One last thing, if it's fair for you to reject older women (or just women of your own age) because you worry about what you've "missed out on", isn't it only fair that women reject you so they don't "miss out" too?



causalset said:


> Assuming "complete opposite" isn't any better. By "complete opposite" you don't mean just lack of interest in sex, you mean lack of any and all emotional needs, aka dehumanizing me. And, similarly, saying I am after sex also assumes I lack any emotional needs *besides* sex. So which is worse: saying I am sex-obsessed maniac who doesn't care about anything else, or saying I am complete robot that is devoid of any emotions altogether? I would say one is just as bad as the other.


If you can do what I'm about to suggest, it will be one of the most important things you could do. You need to stop assuming yourself, do what you wish others would do for you.

Next time just ask them what they mean, seek clarification, "did you mean..." and then respond once you actually know what they think. If what they think doesn't match what you were thinking, don't start talking about what other people think, you're not talking to other people, talk to them, about what they actually think.



causalset said:


> Yeah, and being "let down nicely" is one of the things I detest the most. First, it makes me waste lots of time thinking "hmm, maybe I should have said this instead of that, maybe I should have arrived earlier, maybe slightly later" when actually they just don't want to talk to me. Second, once I realize this, it makes me feel stupid. Thirdly, I am not given an opportunity to defend myself since nobody told me what it is they dislike about me so that I could respond.


To be fair, they find themselves in an unwinnable position, if they lie to you you'll harbour delusional thoughts (that you could have done something differently), if they're honest with you you'll argue with them. The only thing you'll accept is acceptance, at least that's how it seems.

If you demand honesty then you must be willing to accept it (that's going in the quote thread ).



causalset said:


> I would have, if people were to give me constructive criticism instead of giving up on me.


How about you change anyway, why do you need them to tell you to do it? You're an adult, decide to change for/by yourself, you certainly can't claim ignorance any longer.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> Thinking that you've missed out out by not being with a young woman suggests they have something to offer that older women don't, something you value more than what an older woman might be more likely to offer than a younger one.
> 
> The obvious thing would be a more youthful body, which suggests that your main concerns are sex and/or child bearing, not who they are as people.
> 
> ...


As far as missing out, here is a simple logic: what if each age group has its own things to offer that other age groups don't. In this case, I won't miss out in being with older women, since the younger woman I am dating will become older later on; but I will miss out on dating younger women since the older woman won't ever become younger.

Now I guess you might ask me to be more specific in terms of what I mean by different age groups having different things to offer. So I guess older age group has wisdom and life experience to offer, while younger age group has more adventures to offer (I don't mean sex). Now, its true that on the list of the advantages of younger age group you have looks. But that has nothing to do with sex. I mean, there is something about women in their 20-s that makes it enjoyable to simply talk to them -- and no I am not fapping on their photos.

Let me also point this out to you. If a guy in his 20-s says he wants to date women in their 20-s, nobody says he is only after sex, but when a guy in his 30-s says thisn then people say he is after sex. But wouldn't the argcauments you put forth equally apply to both cases? If you say younger age doesn't have any advantages other than sex, why don't you accuse a younger guy who turns down older woman for being after sex?

As a side note, why did you lump child bearing with sex? I don't think its shallow to want children in future: I don't want my genetic line to die out. And no I am not saying that this is why I want younger women I am simply pointing out my other concern that it seems sometimes people assume I will die childless.



LonelyLurker said:


> One last thing, if it's fair for you to reject older women (or just women of your own age) because you worry about what you've "missed out on", isn't it only fair that women reject you so they don't "miss out" too?


Well different women are different, so I hope to find the one for whom its not a concern. And I am not saying women have less needs than men. I am sure there are also men for whom its not a concern either. When I talk about missing out I am only speaking for myself, nobody else. I am sure there is some proportion of men who are in my shoes -- and I am sure there is a proportion of women in my shoes too -- but I guess I hope to meet a woman who isn't in my shoes. But then again maybe meeting a woman in my shoes is a good thing: I will probably get along really well with woman with Asperger. I am just responding to what you said about women in my shoes rejecting me in order not to miss out, thats why I am like okay what about other types of women.



LonelyLurker said:


> If you can do what I'm about to suggest, it will be one of the most important things you could do. You need to stop assuming yourself, do what you wish others would do for you.
> 
> Next time just ask them what they mean, seek clarification, "did you mean..." and then respond once you actually know what they think. If what they think doesn't match what you were thinking, don't start talking about what other people think, you're not talking to other people, talk to them, about what they actually think.


Well the reason I am talking here rather than to those women is that they are no longer talking to me. But I guess you might be right in a sense that when they *did* talk to me, and I was arguing against what they said, I didn't first ask "did you mean such and such" instead I simply assumed what they meant and went on to try to prove them wrong, which ultimately pushed them away. And then htere is another category of women with whom I *didn't* argue, but the interactions in question happened several months ago, so if I were to ask them about several months ago, they might probably find it creepy that I remember it so well yet didn't say anything before.



LonelyLurker said:


> To be fair, they find themselves in an unwinnable position, if they lie to you you'll harbour delusional thoughts (that you could have done something differently), if they're honest with you you'll argue with them. The only thing you'll accept is acceptance, at least that's how it seems.
> 
> If you demand honesty then you must be willing to accept it (that's going in the quote thread ).


The point is that it doesn't have to be acceptance or rejection, it can be a conditional statement, such as "if you start taking shower and stop talking about yourself, and keep it up for two months, I might reconsider". Now, to be fair, I remember women that told me they have to think about it and I didn't accept that answer and started arguing. But you see, the reason I did that is that I took "I have to think about it" as a "no": for example, one woman "had to think about it" becasue I talked about ex-s too much. However, that doesn't make it "no win situation" because if they are LEGTITIMATELY thinking about it rather than letting me down easily then I will accept the answer. And yes I remember one woman who was, in fact, legitimately thinking about it: she gave me a list of things she wanted me to change AND gave me a two-months trial period in which I would demonstrate that I change (but then I failed that trial period).



LonelyLurker said:


> How about you change anyway, why do you needyou them to tell you to do it? You're an adult, decide to change for/by yourself, you certainly can't claim ignorance any longer.


I can claim ignorance, as evident from the fact that when I do take shower I don't all of a sudden make tons of friends. So there are other things I am unaware of, and obviously I can't name them since I don't know what they are.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> As far as missing out, here is a simple logic: what if each age group has its own things to offer that other age groups don't. In this case, I won't miss out in being with older women, since the younger woman I am dating will become older later on; but I will miss out on dating younger women since the older woman won't ever become younger.


Do you think any woman would read that and not assume that you'd trade her in when she got old herself? That's the problem with your logic, it only works in theory, in the real world people have emotions and opinions of their own which means that in practise your logic is illogical.



causalset said:


> Now I guess you might ask me to be more specific in terms of what I mean by different age groups having different things to offer. So I guess older age group has wisdom and life experience to offer, while younger age group has more adventures to offer (I don't mean sex). Now, its true that on the list of the advantages of younger age group you have looks. But that has nothing to do with sex. I mean, there is something about women in their 20-s that makes it enjoyable to simply talk to them -- and no I am not fapping on their photos.


What do you mean by adventures? I don't see how being young would mean that you would have more adventures, it would seem more logical to simply look for adventurous women if that was your goal. I decide whether someone is worth talking to based on what they have to say so I can't really understand your outlook there but I can accept it.



causalset said:


> Let me also point this out to you. If a guy in his 20-s says he wants to date women in their 20-s, nobody says he is only after sex, but when a guy in his 30-s says thisn then people say he is after sex. But wouldn't the argcauments you put forth equally apply to both cases? If you say younger age doesn't have any advantages other than sex, why don't you accuse a younger guy who turns down older woman for being after sex?


That would be because he would be looking for women in his own age range which is considered normal. The problem wouldn't be a man in his 30's dating a woman in her 20's but the man in his 30's saying he *only* wants to date women in their 20's.

This isn't really a big issue but it does appear somewhat superficial.



causalset said:


> As a side note, why did you lump child bearing with sex? I don't think its shallow to want children in future: I don't want my genetic line to die out. And no I am not saying that this is why I want younger women I am simply pointing out my other concern that it seems sometimes people assume I will die childless.


Because both involve using the woman as a vessel to get something you want without concern for what she wants. At least this is the way it sounds when you talk about it. You never talk about what you want to give only what you want to take, you don't talk about loving a child and forming a happy family, you talk about ensuring *your *genes don't die.

Again, there's nothing wrong with wanting a woman you find physically attractive or wanting kids but don't fool yourself into thinking you're higher minded than the "bad" men who lust after women and ruin it for everyone.



causalset said:


> Well different women are different, so I hope to find the one for whom its not a concern. And I am not saying women have less needs than men. I am sure there are also men for whom its not a concern either. When I talk about missing out I am only speaking for myself, nobody else. I am sure there is some proportion of men who are in my shoes -- and I am sure there is a proportion of women in my shoes too -- but I guess I hope to meet a woman who isn't in my shoes. But then again maybe meeting a woman in my shoes is a good thing: I will probably get along really well with woman with Asperger. I am just responding to what you said about women in my shoes rejecting me in order not to miss out, thats why I am like okay what about other types of women.


If you truly believed that and simply hoped to meet someone compatible you wouldn't be complaining about women exercising free will (as you have a habit of doing).



causalset said:


> Well the reason I am talking here rather than to those women is that they are no longer talking to me. But I guess you might be right in a sense that when they *did* talk to me, and I was arguing against what they said, I didn't first ask "did you mean such and such" instead I simply assumed what they meant and went on to try to prove them wrong, which ultimately pushed them away. And then htere is another category of women with whom I *didn't* argue, but the interactions in question happened several months ago, so if I were to ask them about several months ago, they might probably find it creepy that I remember it so well yet didn't say anything before.


I was actually referring to @Persephone The Dread. You assumed what was meant instead of asking and jumped to an incorrect conclusion as a result. I get the feeling you do this a lot, correct me if I'm wrong though.



causalset said:


> The point is that it doesn't have to be acceptance or rejection, it can be a conditional statement, such as "if you start taking shower and stop talking about yourself, and keep it up for two months, I might reconsider".


Which would be a conditional statement of...acceptance. Why can't she just say "I have no interest in being with a man that needs me to tell him to wash himself"? You expect far too much from the hypothetical woman and far too little from yourself.



causalset said:


> Now, to be fair, I remember women that told me they have to think about it and I didn't accept that answer and started arguing. But you see, the reason I did that is that I took "I have to think about it" as a "no": for example, one woman "had to think about it" becasue I talked about ex-s too much. However, that doesn't make it "no win situation" because if they are LEGTITIMATELY thinking about it rather than letting me down easily then I will accept the answer. And yes I remember one woman who was, in fact, legitimately thinking about it: she gave me a list of things she wanted me to change AND gave me a two-months trial period in which I would demonstrate that I change (but then I failed that trial period).


Remember this, it's very important. They're allowed to say no, for whatever reason they like, even if that reason doesn't make sense. If they're not interested they're not interested, you can ask why of course but if they don't want to talk about it, that's it, move on.



causalset said:


> I can claim ignorance, as evident from the fact that when I do take shower I don't all of a sudden make tons of friends. So there are other things I am unaware of, and obviously I can't name them since I don't know what they are.


You can't claim ignorance about maintaining good personal hygiene, you can be aware of that without having to be omniscient. Address the problems you are aware of then worry about the ones you aren't.

OK, this goes back to what I said to you in another thread, you aren't owed friendship or relationships. Even if you do everything perfectly you won't be *guaranteed* success, life simply doesn't work that way.

However, you *can* maximise the probability of success by addressing any issues that my be holding you back.

As I said before, there's a difference between being worthy of something and being owed something. Feeling as though you are being deprived of something owed to you is what leads to resentment.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I was mentioned but have no idea what's going on.


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## forever in flux (Nov 26, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I was mentioned but have no idea what's going on.


lol still it's nice that others are thinking of you. I wish I was mentioned in nonsensical posts


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

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----------



## forever in flux (Nov 26, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Point all;
> Used a if out space was from skyward challenge staircase and;
> Goal cosmology" other as governments blaze through.
> The unite of the is arriving the installed june;
> ...


This reminds me of using those translation websites from english to mandarin but making slightly more sense.

Thanks for the mention, you've melted my ice cold heart


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

forever in flux said:


> This reminds me of using those translation websites from english to mandari but making slightly more sense.
> 
> Thanks for the mention, you've melted my ice cold heart


I copied and pasted a couple of articles into a dada poem generator lol.


----------



## forever in flux (Nov 26, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I copied and pasted a couple of articles into a dada poem generator lol.


I love dada, it's so absurd. Did you see the Vic Reeves documentary on BBC a few months ago? It was quality.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

forever in flux said:


> I love dada, it's so absurd. Did you see the Vic Reeves documentary on BBC a few months ago? It was quality.


No lol haven't watched that. I only have a basic awareness of it as a art movement (or anti-art movement.) I also know some musicians have used that cut up method to get song titles.


----------



## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

forever in flux said:


> lol still it's nice that others are thinking of you. I wish I was mentioned in nonsensical posts


It makes sense if you actually read it but whatever. :laugh:


----------



## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> Do you think any woman would read that and not assume that you'd trade her in when she got old herself? That's the problem with your logic, it only works in theory, in the real world people have emotions and opinions of their own which means that in practise your logic is illogical.


Well, by the time she would get older, I would have spent sufficient enough time to dating younger version of her that I would no longer feel I am missing out on that and, therfore, I would be more than happy to continue to date her as she is older. I wouldn't want to dump her since then I would feel like all those years together were wasted at best and caused heartache at worst.



LonelyLurker said:


> What do you mean by adventures? I don't see how being young would mean that you would have more adventures, it would seem more logical to simply look for adventurous women if that was your goal. I decide whether someone is worth talking to based on what they have to say so I can't really understand your outlook there but I can accept it.


Well when I overhear conversation between younger people it doesn't sound the same as the conversation between older people. So its not even adventures per se but even participating in that type of younger people conversation is worth it. It might not sound like much but thats only because you haven't missed out on it the way I did. And then of course if their conversation is different their life is different too. Hard to give examples since I never was part of it, which is precisely the point.



LonelyLurker said:


> That would be because he would be looking for women in his own age range which is considered *normal*. The problem wouldn't be a man in his 30's dating a woman in her 20's but the man in his 30's saying he *only* wants to date women in their 20's.


But why is the word "normal" such a magic word? And why is it if I want something "normal" then no other explanation needed but if I want something else then I must be after sex? And, even in terms of the word "normal" I can put it this way "it is normal to have had interaction with younger people at some part of your biography; since I don't, I have to change my biography now by interacting with younger people now".



LonelyLurker said:


> This isn't really a big issue but it does appear somewhat superficial.


So is the desire of people in their 20-s to date their own age group.



LonelyLurker said:


> Because both involve using the woman as a vessel to get something you want without concern for what she wants. At least this is the way it sounds when you talk about it. You never talk about what you want to give only what you want to take, you don't talk about loving a child and forming a happy family, you talk about ensuring *your *genes don't die.


I DID "give" things in the past. For example, my second ex was seriously sick due to the blood she lost during menstruating due to PCOS, and I was taking care of her. When she was no longer as sick, she became grumpy and that was when I no longer liked her, but I didn't want to break up because I remember her being sick and fragile and didn't want to hurt her. It came to the point that I was regretting I ever met her and was promising myself that if I would be single by any chance I would stay single. But I still didn't want to break up with her -- because of not wanting to hurt HER.

However, here is a key: before I was ever concerned about her, I had to get to know her. So how can I possibly be concerned about anyone else if I don't know anyone else? I mean, how is it even possible for someone single to be talking about wanting to "give" to a future partner whom they don't even know?! Is it something like saying "I am on a mission to better the fate of mankind, and I will work on it through changing the life of just one person -- and I am in search for that person"? I guess its possible, but I don't think most people would say that.



LonelyLurker said:


> If you truly believed that and simply hoped to meet someone compatible you wouldn't be complaining about women exercising free will (as you have a habit of doing).


I am not being sexist here: I was also complaining why physics professors -- most of whom were male -- were exercizing free will in not wanting to work with me (you didn't get to hear it since I wasn't on this forum at the time this was a problem). And I am not saying that "people" should be devoid of free will either: especially in the women department, if women don't have free will, why would their "love" be emotionally valuable anyway? But I guess I wish they were less judgemental so that they could give themselves more time to form their opinion of me instead fo judging me by things on the surface so that they could actually *like* me rather than feel forced to talk to me.



LonelyLurker said:


> I was actually referring to @Persephone The Dread. You assumed what was meant instead of asking and jumped to an incorrect conclusion as a result. I get the feeling you do this a lot, correct me if I'm wrong though.


Incidentally most people do it to me too -- when they assume I meant to be antisocial instead of asking me. I guess that is how society operates: you never see people asking each other what they meant, most just read between the lines. But I guess in my case it has to be different since nonverbal communication goes astray.



LonelyLurker said:


> Which would be a conditional statement of...acceptance. Why can't she just say "I have no interest in being with a man that needs me to tell him to wash himself"? You expect far too much from the hypothetical woman and far too little from yourself.


I mean what would be the logic behind "no"? The logic is that she thinks I am incapable of changing. But if I am incapable of it, why would I bother trying then? So I don't expect "too little" of myself: I do want to change, but I want some sort of external validation that people know I can.



LonelyLurker said:


> Remember this, it's very important. They're allowed to say no, for whatever reason they like, even if that reason doesn't make sense. If they're not interested they're not interested, you can ask why of course but if they don't want to talk about it, that's it, move on.


I wish I was allowed to have back and forth conversation about it rather than just asking why. If they give me an answer thats not true I wish I could challenge it. Like one girl, back in 2005, rejected me because she thought that since my mom shelters me I must want it, and its not what she can do for her partner. But no I don't want my mom to shelter me, my mom does it against her will. And then there was a girl in 2015 who thought that since Sheldon has no feelings I can't love either but she was wrong: if I had no feelings I wouldn't be having this discussion now. And then there was a girl just a couple of months ago who rejected me *just* for talking about ex-s (and thats it!) and that made me feel bad because it was like one of the rare occasions when it could have worked but I stupidly blew it by talking about ex-s; and then when I started asking for second chance she said that she has hard time trusting guys in general since they were always breaking her heart; but why would I ever break her heart? I mean even from the selfish point of view, why would I want to subject myself to that torture of single life all over again?! You see, when women are assuming those things that aren't true thats when I want to correct them.



LonelyLurker said:


> You can't claim ignorance about maintaining good personal hygiene, you can be aware of that without having to be omniscient. Address the problems you are aware of then worry about the ones you aren't.


I already did address shower part at least for some extended periods of time before I got busy with classes. I guess I now have to address hair part and also learn to speak in low tone of voice. The question is: will peple remember the time I weren't doing it?



LonelyLurker said:


> OK, this goes back to what I said to you in another thread, you aren't owed friendship or relationships. Even if you do everything perfectly you won't be *guaranteed* success, life simply doesn't work that way.
> 
> However, you *can* maximise the probability of success by addressing any issues that my be holding you back.
> 
> As I said before, there's a difference between being worthy of something and being owed something. Feeling as though you are being deprived of something owed to you is what leads to resentment.


I guess I don't feel I am "owed" friendship/relationship, but instead I feel I am "owed" factual understanding about me and I feel people don't understand me which is part of why they don't want to date me. If someone were to understand me, but refuse to date me due to age, then I won't be arguing since the bit about my age is true.


----------



## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Well, by the time she would get older, I would have spent sufficient enough time to dating younger version of her that I would no longer feel I am missing out on that and, therfore, I would be more than happy to continue to date her as she is older. I wouldn't want to dump her since then I would feel like all those years together were wasted at best and caused heartache at worst.


This is another of the things you need to try to learn, her perception is more important than the reality of the situation, why? Because she is the one making the decision and her perception will influence her decision more than reality (assuming they don't match)



causalset said:


> Well when I overhear conversation between younger people it doesn't sound the same as the conversation between older people. So its not even adventures per se but even participating in that type of younger people conversation is worth it. *It might not sound like much but thats only because you haven't missed out on it the way I did*. And then of course if their conversation is different their life is different too. Hard to give examples since I never was part of it, which is precisely the point.


How can you be so sure? You haven't asked me.



causalset said:


> But why is the word "normal" such a magic word? And why is it if I want something "normal" then no other explanation needed but if I want something else then I must be after sex? And, even in terms of the word "normal" I can put it this way "it is normal to have had interaction with younger people at some part of your biography; since I don't, I have to change my biography now by interacting with younger people now".


Normal isn't a value judgement, even though many people incorrectly use it that way. It simply means that something is common, typical, expected etc. So people being in relationships with people within their own age range is normal while older men *exclusively *wanting to date young women isn't prevalent to the extent that it's considered normal. It's not particularly surprising but it isn't expected, if someone was going to set you up it's unlikely they would assume "he's almost 40 so he probably wants to date someone in their 20's".



causalset said:


> So is the desire of people in their 20-s to date their own age group.


Sure, you could make that argument but it doesn't really change anything does it?



causalset said:


> I DID "give" things in the past.


And that's good but you don't talk about *wanting* to give to someone else, which doesn't necessarily mean you don't want to but appears that way all the same. As I said, sometimes perception is more important than reality.



causalset said:


> But I still didn't want to break up with her -- because of not wanting to hurt HER.


Well that's not good either, it could be argued that staying with someone you don't actually want to be with isn't actually doing something good for them, even if that's the intention.



causalset said:


> So how can I possibly be concerned about anyone else if I don't know anyone else?


The same way I can spend time reading your posts and replying even though I don't know you.



causalset said:


> I mean, how is it even possible for someone single to be talking about wanting to "give" to a future partner whom they don't even know?!


Because hopefully it would give you joy to provide joy to someone you loved. You may not know who or even if such a person exists, but that wouldn't prevent you from thinking about it all the same (unless that's something your Autism might affect in which case you'd have to see if there are ways around it).



causalset said:


> I am not being sexist here: I was also complaining why physics professors -- most of whom were male -- were exercizing free will in not wanting to work with me (you didn't get to hear it since I wasn't on this forum at the time this was a problem).


This would definitely fall under 2 wrongs don't make a right territory. :smile2:



causalset said:


> And I am not saying that "people" should be devoid of free will either: especially in the women department, if women don't have free will, why would their "love" be emotionally valuable anyway? But I guess I wish they were less judgemental so that they could give themselves more time to form their opinion of me instead fo judging me by things on the surface so that they could actually *like* me rather than feel forced to talk to me.


That's a good thing to hope for but you have to deal with the world as it is not how you would wish it to be. Plus, there's no guarantee that if they dug beneath the surface they would be interested anyway, not because you're not worthy but because that's the case for everyone.



causalset said:


> Incidentally most people do it to me too -- when they assume I meant to be antisocial instead of asking me. I guess that is how society operates: you never see people asking each other what they meant, most just read between the lines. But I guess in my case it has to be different since nonverbal communication goes astray.


It is, it's one of my least favourite aspects of human behaviour. I've literally told people I've been having discussions/arguments with that they didn't actually know what I thought because the hadn't asked me and it *still* doesn't occur to them to ask. This is a test for you because I've told you that you haven't asked me something in this post, will you ask or continue to assume? We shall see. 



causalset said:


> I mean what would be the logic behind "no"? The logic is that she thinks I am incapable of changing.


The logic would be that Man A *might *become what she wants but Man B is *already *what she she wants. Therefore Man B is the better choice.



causalset said:


> But if I am incapable of it, why would I bother trying then? So I don't expect "too little" of myself: I do want to change, but I want some sort of external validation that people know I can.


You could simply be delusional, there is no shortage of people who overestimate their capabilities.

Or you could change now anyway and remove this question all together.



causalset said:


> I wish I was allowed to have back and forth conversation about it rather than just asking why. If they give me an answer thats not true I wish I could challenge it.


I can understand that but not everyone is open to being questioned and you have to respect that even if you can see that they are mistaken.

Why would you even want to be with that kind of woman, do you really want to be in a relationship with a woman who is incapable of being reasoned with?



causalset said:


> I already did address shower part at least for some extended periods of time before I got busy with classes. I guess I now have to address hair part and also learn to speak in low tone of voice. The question is: will peple remember the time I weren't doing it?


Unless you've already met everyone in the world it doesn't matter, change and then meet new people.



causalset said:


> I guess I don't feel I am "owed" friendship/relationship, but instead I feel I am "owed" factual understanding about me and I feel people don't understand me which is part of why they don't want to date me. If someone were to understand me, but refuse to date me due to age, then I won't be arguing since the bit about my age is true.


You're not owed that either, it's not nice but it's true. Most people get misunderstood/misinterpreted it's part of humanity. All you can hope is that you eventually meet people that will actually take the time to understand you and even then there will be things they misunderstand about you.


----------



## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> This is another of the things you need to try to learn, her perception is more important than the reality of the situation, why? Because she is the one making the decision and her perception will influence her decision more than reality (assuming they don't match)


The only issue with this is that -- as you said in the other part of your reply -- people could have ASKED me. If they were to ask, then -- by your own words -- my answer would be more reliable than their perceptions. And by the way they don't even have to ask: I offer them my own answer all by myself as I am trying to dispute their perceptions; the only question is why don't they believe me.



LonelyLurker said:


> How can you be so sure? You haven't asked me.


Okay, so here I am asking you: do you feel jealous when you overhear their conversations?



LonelyLurker said:


> Normal isn't a value judgement, even though many people incorrectly use it that way. It simply means that something is common, typical, expected etc. So people being in relationships with people within their own age range is normal while older men *exclusively *wanting to date young women isn't prevalent to the extent that it's considered normal. It's not particularly surprising but it isn't expected, if someone was going to set you up it's unlikely they would assume "he's almost 40 so he probably wants to date someone in their 20's".


Okay so by "normal" you mean "typical". But the question still stands: why are people that are "less typical" are more likely to be accused to be after sex?

By the way I am not "exclusively" focusing on girls in their 20-s. I talked to some women in their 30-s on dating site. And I weren't just doing it to cover up my real interest in people in their 20-s -- well first of all nobody was watching other than myself and besides I got interested in the 38 year old I was talking to enough to obsess about why she ghosted me. Still, however, I strongly *prefer* to talk to women in their 20-s. So if I say "I am interested in the age range 20-40 but, out of that age range, I prefer 20-30 option to 30-40 option" does it sound better?



LonelyLurker said:


> Sure, you could make that argument but it doesn't really change anything does it?


It does, because people are accusing "less typical" people to be shallow and/or after sex, and I am claiming that, if you are to use those standards consistently, then you could make those same accusations against "more typical" people.



LonelyLurker said:


> And that's good but you don't talk about *wanting* to give to someone else, which doesn't necessarily mean you don't want to but appears that way all the same. As I said, sometimes perception is more important than reality.


Once again, they could have asked me.



LonelyLurker said:


> Well that's not good either, it could be argued that staying with someone you don't actually want to be with isn't actually doing something good for them, even if that's the intention.


That might be true; but the point I was trying to make is that I had an example from my life when I cared about the other person and tried to help; the fact that my attempts to help were misguided doesn't change the fact that I was thinking about the other person.



LonelyLurker said:


> The same way I can spend time reading your posts and replying even though I don't know you.


I guess we are talking about different degrees of knowledge. You still had to see my posts before you started replying. But in my case people aren't even talking to me, so how can I care about them in this case? I would have to be given at least *something* about their lives (like in your case -- my posts) to care about.



LonelyLurker said:


> Because hopefully it would give you joy to provide joy to someone you loved. You may not know who or even if such a person exists, but that wouldn't prevent you from thinking about it all the same


But in this case, wouldn't it still be about "me": it provides "me" joy? Sure, this sounds like hair splitting, but I heard similar hair splitting from others when they were telling me I don't actually love them I only love the feeling of them loving me. So why is this "hair splitting" point valid in one case and not the other?



LonelyLurker said:


> (unless that's something your Autism might affect in which case you'd have to see if there are ways around it).


First of all what I have is Asperger which is a level milder than autism. But anyway, obviously I do have capacity to care -- as exemplified by what I told you about second ex. So I think what makes me selfish isn't Asperger itself but the social situation created BY my Asperger. Asperger leads to ostracism and ostracism deprives me of things to care about.



LonelyLurker said:


> This would definitely fall under 2 wrongs don't make a right territory. :smile2:


The reason I had to point it out is to refuse the accusation of being sexist. The fact that those professors were males is what I was trying to stress.



LonelyLurker said:


> That's a good thing to hope for but you have to deal with the world as it is not how you would wish it to be. Plus, there's no guarantee that if they dug beneath the surface they would be interested anyway, not because you're not worthy but because that's the case for everyone.


Sure, there is no guarantee with any one person; but I guess I could make statistical statement that if people in general were to do it, then some proportion of them would of liked me. My problem isn't that I make friends/relationships and can't sustain them; rather my problem is that I can't get my foot through the door.



LonelyLurker said:


> It is, it's one of my least favourite aspects of human behaviour. I've literally told people I've been having discussions/arguments with that they didn't actually know what I thought because the hadn't asked me and it *still* doesn't occur to them to ask. This is a test for you because I've told you that you haven't asked me something in this post, will you ask or continue to assume? We shall see.


As you saw, I asked  But I admit that, if you didn't call me out on it just now, I probably wouldn't have. The reason I wouldn't have asked is that I assumed that by asking "have you asked me" you meant that I was wrong in my perception, so I would have simply said "alright since I was wrong in assuming that you aren't jealous about small talk, then apparently you are" and not ask. *It is still better than what other people do when they stick to their original assumptions instead of changing them. *



LonelyLurker said:


> The logic would be that Man A *might *become what she wants but Man B is *already *what she she wants. Therefore Man B is the better choice.


But Man B wasn't in the picture at least in some of those situations; I mean in some of those situations the girls said something where I read between the lines that they weren't talking to others. But then again they didn't say they weren't, nor did they commit to me either; so are you saying that they did, in fact, talk to others and it was my bad I was assuming that they didn't without asking?



LonelyLurker said:


> You could simply be delusional, there is no shortage of people who overestimate their capabilities.
> 
> Or you could change now anyway and remove this question all together.


If I am delusional about being able to change why would I bother? Or are you saying that its "might" rather than "is" and once I start trying and see how things "are" (thruogh combination of successes and failures) then my self-estimation will be more trustworthy, even in the eyes of others too?



LonelyLurker said:


> Why would you even want to be with that kind of woman, do you really want to be in a relationship with a woman who is incapable of being reasoned with?


Because nobody is perfect. So I am not going to reject someone for having the type of imperfection that is shared by 99% of people (and I am not sexist either: I am sure 99% of people of either gender suffer from it, its just that female gender is the only thing that affects me).



LonelyLurker said:


> Unless you've already met everyone in the world it doesn't matter, change and then meet new people.


But the point is that I would prefer to date my fellow graduate students rather than just someone random on the street. I am not saying I am restricting myself: I mean out of my 3 ex-s only the second one was my fellow graduate student, and still from a different department. I am just saying that maybe part of why my past relationships didn't work out is that I had to balance between two completely separate lifes and I feel like maybe it would be nice to date a fellow grad student from my own department for a change. But I guess I can see that I am not in a position to ask for so much. But then how would I meet people elsewhere? So again I have to go on dating sites, just like I did before, and I feel like being on dating sites too much was one of the mistakes I was making, as it was just taking me away from real world. So I am not sure, what would you suggest I do?



LonelyLurker said:


> You're not owed that either, it's not nice but it's true. Most people get misunderstood/misinterpreted it's part of humanity. All you can hope is that you eventually meet people that will actually take the time to understand you and even then there will be things they misunderstand about you.


If you say MOST people get misunderstood (as opposed to just people with Asperger) then why don't people get into a habbit of double checking everything?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

@causalset, it seems that we're just going around in circles here.

The truth of the matter is this, you can choose to obsess about the hypothetical reality that only exists in your mind or learn how to operate in the reality we all share, the one with the women in it.

You are well within you your rights to make either of those choices.

If you chose the former then continue to do what you have been doing and I wish you luck, though it's unlikely, someone who's perfect for you as you are now may drop into your lap.

If you chose the latter then you need to take personal responsibility and stop trying to blame others for unfavourable outcomes. Yes, they play a part but you've been playing a massive role yourself, you do yourself no favours.

If you display that you are actually genuine about accepting responsibility and improving yourself I will gladly help you, if not, well, I wish you the best.

Take care


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> *If you display that you are actually genuine about accepting responsibility and improving yourself I will gladly help you,* if not, well, I wish you the best.


Okay here is self improvement question. If I do improve, how can I get people that already know me -- such as people in my Math department -- re-evaluate their opinion of me?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Okay here is self improvement question. If I do improve, how can I get people that already know me -- such as people in my Math department -- re-evaluate their opinion of me?


By being different, by having changed and showing it consistently.

If they don't re-evaluate, oh well, there are other people in the world. If you start telling me about your preference for interacting with people in your Math department that would be an indication that you're not ready to deal with reality on it's own terms BTW.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> If you start telling me about your preference for interacting with people in your Math department that would be an indication that you're not ready to deal with reality on it's own terms BTW.


So how do you define dealing with reality? Do you mean just accepting what it is without trying to alter it? But then, what would be the purpose of self improvement, if I just accept the "reality" that I will always be single and/or never become a professor? Isn't the whole point in self improvement to eventually obtain the things I don't currently have?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> So how do you define dealing with reality? Do you mean just accepting what it is without trying to alter it? But then, what would be the purpose of self improvement, if I just accept the "reality" that I will always be single and/or never become a professor? Isn't the whole point in self improvement to eventually obtain the things I don't currently have?


In this context trying to alter it would be self improvement, if the people you already know can't be won over then accepting reality would be trying to win other people over instead.

Everybody won't like you regardless of what you do or don't do, that's reality.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> In this context trying to alter it would be self improvement, if the people you already know can't be won over then accepting reality would be trying to win other people over instead.
> 
> Everybody won't like you regardless of what you do or don't do, that's reality.


Then where do you suggest I look for a girlfriend. I mean I am on dating sites and that certainly doesn't help (nobody responds to my messages). So what else do you suggest?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Then where do you suggest I look for a girlfriend. I mean I am on dating sites and that certainly doesn't help (nobody responds to my messages). So what else do you suggest?


I would suggest that you concentrate on changing the things you need to change, your current problem isn't location, it's your behaviour. Women are everywhere, look everywhere.

Start being friendly (learn what that means if you need to), be approachable and start to show that you actually care about other people (learn how to care about strangers if necessary). Talk to people, make them feel comfortable in your presence, make them enjoy your company and then give them the opportunity to enjoy more of it (by asking them out, by *you* asking them out).

That's what I would suggest.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> I would suggest that you concentrate on changing the things you need to change, your current problem isn't location, it's your behaviour. Women are everywhere, look everywhere.
> 
> Start being friendly (learn what that means if you need to), be approachable and start to show that you actually care about other people (learn how to care about strangers if necessary). Talk to people, make them feel comfortable in your presence, make them enjoy your company and then give them the opportunity to enjoy more of it (by asking them out, by *you* asking them out).
> 
> That's what I would suggest.


Obviously I, myself, would like to come across in the ways you described. But the question is how to do it. Like you said in the other replies what matters is other people's perception. So my problem is that I am not being perceived in the ways you described, and I don't know what to do in order to get myself to be perceived this way.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Obviously I, myself, would like to come across in the ways you described. But the question is how to do it. Like you said in the other replies what matters is other people's perception. So my problem is that I am not being perceived in the ways you described, and I don't know what to do in order to get myself to be perceived this way.


OK, we may be getting somewhere. :smile2:

Let's start with being friendly, have you ever observed people being friendly with each other? What was different about what they were doing and what you do?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> OK, we may be getting somewhere. :smile2:
> 
> Let's start with being friendly, have you ever observed people being friendly with each other? What was different about what they were doing and what you do?


Well they smile to each other, they talk and so forth. But I guess its pretty hard to do the "talking" if nobody approaches me to talk to me.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Well they smile to each other, they talk and so forth. But I guess its pretty hard to do the "talking" if nobody approaches me to talk to me.


You're a smart guy, what potential solution could be posed for such a problem?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> You're a smart guy, what potential solution could be posed for such a problem?


The only thing I can think of is to look more friendly during whatever minimal interactions I do have -- such as when I buy a grocery in the store or talk to my professors about my work? Do you think if I try and smile more in those occasions it will somehow generate more interactions? I mean obviously I am not going to date my professors but perhaps others will be watching me?

I don't think that is too effective though because there were times when I tried doing it, especially when I just moved, and it didn't help me. So perhaps I have to be more consistent? Do you think if I do it for 2 months I will see the results, or how long does it have to be?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> The only thing I can think of is to look more friendly during whatever minimal interactions I do have -- such as when I buy a grocery in the store or talk to my professors about my work? Do you think if I try and smile more in those occasions it will somehow generate more interactions? I mean obviously I am not going to date my professors but perhaps others will be watching me?
> 
> I don't think that is too effective though because there were times when I tried doing it, especially when I just moved, and it didn't help me. So perhaps I have to be more consistent? Do you think if I do it for 2 months I will see the results, or how long does it have to be?


OK, I'll approach this from another angle.

You want to eat an apple, there's an apple on the floor, you open your hand yet the apple doesn't jump into it. How do you get the apple on the floor?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Forever Me said:


> And then does the apple call you a creep saying you touched it inappropriately?


Apples can't talk silly. :smile2:

The analogy is sound.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Forever Me said:


> And then does the apple call you a creep saying you touched it inappropriately?


Yeah exactly, thats why I don't approach women. I mean I do do other things for my life when I apply to graduate schools or send papers for publication. But approaching women is too risky since they will call me creep.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Yeah exactly, thats why I don't approach women. I mean I do do other things for my life when I apply to graduate schools or send papers for publication. But approaching women is too risky since they will call me creep.


Then it appears that we once again stand at a crossroads, one goes to reality, the other rationalisation. I'm going to reality, I'll gladly talk to you if you care to join me. If you choose to go to rationalisation instead then I guess this is the end of our conversation, but I wish you luck.

Which road will you choose (and it is your choice)? I guess we'll find out.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> Then it appears that we once again stand at a crossroads, one goes to reality, the other rationalisation. I'm going to reality, I'll gladly talk to you if you care to join me. If you choose to go to rationalisation instead then I guess this is the end of our conversation, but I wish you luck.
> 
> Which road will you choose (and it is your choice)? I guess we'll find out.


Well the fact that if I approach girls when its unwelcome they would think I am a creep IS a reality too. So I guess by reality you mean actions rather than words? So what do you suggest I "do" in order to stop being a loner without looking like a creep? I realize you might say that the real world isn't perfect. But okay, how about not looking more creepy than most guys look?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Well the fact that if I approach girls when its unwelcome they would think I am a creep IS a reality too. So I guess by reality you mean actions rather than words? So what do you suggest I "do" in order to stop being a loner without looking like a creep? I realize you might say that the real world isn't perfect. But okay, how about not looking more creepy than most guys look?


It's also reality that the probability of success is even lower if you don't try at all, it's just a risk you have to take.

I'm going to take this as you tentatively putting one foot on the road to reality.

Personal hygiene/grooming would be a good start to not making women feel uncomfortable around you.

So here's the test. Now I've told you this, will you make an effort? Even without a woman telling you to you'll be rewarded for that effort?

How you respond will let me know if you've chosen to make this journey or retreated back to rationalisation.

I hope you make the right decision.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> It's also reality that the probability of success is even lower if you don't try at all, it's just a risk you have to take.
> 
> I'm going to take this as you tentatively putting one foot on the road to reality.
> 
> ...


I had good hygine this summer, but nothing hapened yet. Also this summer isn't the first time I had a good hygine. Its a pattern that from time to time (when I am less busy) I have good hygine and then later on I return back to the bad hygine (when I am more busy). Its true though that having bad hygine took up the majority of my history. So how long do I have to keep up good hygine this time around in order to see visible results? I realize I should keep it for the rest of my life, but what I mean is: if I keep good hygine for the rest of my life, in how long from now would I expect results?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> I had good hygine this summer, but nothing hapened yet. Also this summer isn't the first time I had a good hygine. Its a pattern that from time to time (when I am less busy) I have good hygine and then later on I return back to the bad hygine (when I am more busy). Its true though that having bad hygine took up the majority of my history. So how long do I have to keep up good hygine this time around in order to see visible results? I realize I should keep it for the rest of my life, but what I mean is: if I keep good hygine for the rest of my life, in how long from now would I expect results?


You do it to increase your chances of success, you need to stop looking for certainty in an uncertain world. So you address issues as they arise and hope that it leads to success.

This is what people mean when they talk about working on yourself.

That's reality, do you accept the terms?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> You do it to increase your chances of success, you need to stop looking for certainty in an uncertain world. So you address issues as they arise and hope that it leads to success.
> 
> This is what people mean when they talk about working on yourself.
> 
> That's reality, do you accept the terms?


I am not talking about certainty, I am talking about the probabilities: is the probability of my finding a girlfriend within this coming year 1%, 10%, 50%, 90% or 99%? If I keep up good hygine for this whole year how would it affect the answer to this question?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> I am not talking about certainty, I am talking about the probabilities: is the probability of my finding a girlfriend within this coming year 1%, 10%, 50%, 90% or 99%? If I keep up good hygine for this whole year how would it affect the answer to this question?


Nobody can quantify things for you in that manner, that's what I mean by uncertainty.

It would likely improve your chances however, how much? I can't say, I don't even know if that's your main problem (I suspect your behaviour is actually the biggest issue, but that's much harder to address than your appearance).

That's the thing about reality, you have to decide to try even though success isn't guaranteed, or give up.

Are you going to try?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> It would likely improve your chances however, how much? I can't say, I don't even know if that's your main problem (I suspect your behaviour is actually the biggest issue, but that's much harder to address than your appearance).


Okay then I will respond to you in your own language. If you care about reality, why not try to focus on what IS the main problem, otherwise its like searching for missing wallet below the streetlight even though you know you dropped it elsewhere. So what is it about my behavior that you believe puts people off?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Okay then I will respond to you in your own language. If you care about reality, why not try to focus on what IS the main problem, otherwise its like searching for missing wallet below the streetlight even though you know you dropped it elsewhere. So what is it about my behavior that you believe puts people off?


Because the reality of the situation is that I don't know you, I've never seen you interacting with people and I have no way of knowing if your self reporting is accurate.

To use your analogy, I don't know where you dropped your wallet so it makes sense to look in the places that are well lit first. If it's not there we can crawl around in the dark hoping to feel for it on the floor.

Given what I've said above I can't know for sure but I suspect it's poor body language, lacking knowledge of social norms and a lack of social etiquette. None of these things necessarily make you a bad person and can be addressed if you're prepared to make the effort. That's if these things are actually the problem at all, I just can't know.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> Given what I've said above I can't know for sure but I suspect it's poor body language, lacking knowledge of social norms and a lack of social etiquette.


Yeah, thats what it is. Now what do you want me to do about it? You see, when I was complaining how unfair it is, you were telling me that I should focus on actions not words. And now that I am trying to focus on actions you are saying you don't know what to suggest since you haven't seen me.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Yeah, thats what it is. Now what do you want me to do about it? You see, when I was complaining how unfair it is, you were telling me that I should focus on actions not words. And now that I am trying to focus on actions you are saying you don't know what to suggest since you haven't seen me.


OK, we're getting somewhere.

The answer for all of these is to study people, not just what they say (because many people lie) but what they do. What makes them recoil? What do they respond favourably to? Why is this the case? Why can some people get away with things others can't? It's not easy but I did it so I know it's possible.

Now what I found may only be applicable to me, you'll have to take this journey for yourself (people can help you, unfortunately I had to do it alone) but ultimately it will be you that has to do the heavy lifting.

Those are the actions you must take.

Humility (you may be wrong about everything), observation (looking at what is, not what should be), acceptance (accepting the reality of the situation) and growth (it's up to you whether that's changing, deciding you don't want to play the game anymore or something in between. Either can represent personal growth)

So, what do you think of that answer?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker;1090677185O said:


> The answer for all of these is to study people, not just what they say (because many people lie) but what they do. What makes them recoil?


I don't have the entire list of things obviously, but I have a couple of examples, however sporadic they might be. Every time I don't recognize someone and ask to remind me of who they are, they tend to back away (see this post as an example: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/a-girl-approached-me-then-i-scared-her-away-1939706/ but there were a lot of other similar situations). Also every time I go off tangent on the topic they can't relate to, they back away too. Or even if I don't go off of any tangents, but they seem not to recognize my accent then they would recoil too. And conversely if I "don't" respond within a fraction of a second and have to pause, they would want to back away. If I stare at them they recoil, if my voice is too loud they recoil, etc. In short, they seem to want things to flwo perfectly and when they don't they back away.



LonelyLurker;1090677185O said:


> What do they respond favourably to?


I wish I knew.



LonelyLurker;1090677185O said:


> Why is this the case?


Isn't it EXACTLY what I been trying to figure out in all of my previous posts? Yet you were telling me that the "why" questions were taking me away from reality? If I misunderstood you and actually you think "why" question is prerfectly fine, then what else were you thinking I did that made things less realistic?

Incidentally, here is where my posts about "being happy with myself" were coming from. WHen I didn't recognize others and they were assuming I was disinterested, I felt its ridiculous: its one thing if THEY don't like something, but its quite another thing if they are telling me what *I* like and dislike. Now in the case of them makeing assumptions based off of my not recognizing them, it seems to be the latter rather than the former, and thats why its ridiculous: how can they be TELLING me that its *ME* who is disinterested, when here I am spending hours obsessing about the very thing I am presumably disiterested in?! NOw, the advice to "be happy with myself first" strikes me in that exact same way: what right do they have to tell me that its *ME* who will be happiest if I was single and did something else to make myself happy (what exactly?!), when I know for a fact that the one thing I always wanted is a relationship. And thats why each time someone thinks I am disinterested because I didn't recognize them, I put that advice to "be happy with myself" right into their mouth and come to this forum to complain on how ridiculous it is (which is precisely what I been doing in Part 1 of this post: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/where-copouts-are-true-2047377/ )



LonelyLurker;1090677185O said:


> Why can some people get away with things others can't?


Yeah thats another question I been wondering for a long time. I mean, which is worse: if I don't recognize someone, or if there is a drunk party where they make all kinds of mean joke? Yet not recognizing someone seems to be judged more harshly. And before you say "well if they make mean jokes they know those are jokes", well not really: when I am the one making mean joke then they don't know its a joke any more (as evident from this post: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f33/did-they-overreact-1882169/ )


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Every time I don't recognize someone and ask to remind me of who they are, they tend to back away


Could this be because you make them feel unimportant? If there's another reason then it is your responsibility to convey whatever it is (face blindness, bad at remembering names etc.).



causalset said:


> Also every time I go off tangent on the topic they can't relate to, they back away too.


Could this be because you make them feel like you don't care about what *they* have to say? Pay attention to them make them feel valued, people like to feel valued.



causalset said:


> Or even if I don't go off of any tangents, but they seem not to recognize my accent then they would recoil too.


Then raise the subject yourself and remove the awkwardness early, "Some people struggle to follow my accent, if you don't know what I'm saying, don't struggle in silence, let me know and we can work something out", something like that said with a smile (which indicates that you're easy going).



causalset said:


> And conversely if I "don't" respond within a fraction of a second and have to pause, they would want to back away.


You don't have to respond immediately, maybe you could learn some placeholders, "hmm, that's a good question, let me think". Or, learn how to prompt people to keep on talking, it's amazing how long the average person will talk for with occasional prompts.



causalset said:


> If I stare at them they recoil,


Find a healthy balance of eye contact (I had to learn to make more).



causalset said:


> if my voice is too loud they recoil, etc.


Stop shouting.



causalset said:


> In short, they seem to want things to flwo perfectly and when they don't they back away.


They don't want perfection, they want comfort, they don't want to feel that talking to you is a chore. You have to learn how to make people comfortable around you.



causalset said:


> I wish I knew.


That's why you need to observe and experiment. Along the way you'll learn what works and what doesn't first hand.



causalset said:


> Isn't it EXACTLY what I been trying to figure out in all of my previous posts? Yet you were telling me that the "why" questions were taking me away from reality? If I misunderstood you and actually you think "why" question is prerfectly fine, then what else were you thinking I did that made things less realistic?


And this is the crux of the issue, you don't ask why reality is as it is, you ask why it isn't the way you wish it were. There isn't actually anything wrong with this line of questioning, but it won't help you to navigate the real world.



causalset said:


> Incidentally, here is where my posts about "being happy with myself" were coming from. WHen I didn't recognize others and they were assuming I was disinterested, I felt its ridiculous: its one thing if THEY don't like something, but its quite another thing if they are telling me what *I* like and dislike...


This is an example, instead of ruminating on their errors you could be figuring out how to mitigate them instead.



causalset said:


> Yeah thats another question I been wondering for a long time.


Life isn't fair but the unfairness is predictable so you can learn how to deal with it or take advantage of it if it benefits you.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> Could this be because you make them feel *unimportant?* If there's another reason then it is your responsibility to convey whatever it is (face blindness, bad at remembering names etc.).
> 
> Could this be because you make them feel like you don't care about what *they* have to say? Pay attention to them make them feel *valued*, people like to feel valued.


See, that is precisely what I find so ridiculous. As you just said yourself, they feel "unimportant", "not valued", etc. Yet on my end I am obsessing about them for hours. So why on earth would I be obsessing about something I presumably don't find important or don't value!? Incidentally, could that be why they are telling me to be happy with myself: since they know I don't find anything else important or valuable? But again, why would I be obsessing then? For some reason they totally avoid this question.



LonelyLurker said:


> Stop shouting.


I am not shouting: my voice is naturally loud. A couple of years ago my counselor had me speak slowly and quietly and I noticd that my tongue got really tired after just a minute of doing this (in contrast to speaking fast and loud which I can do for hours). It seems like something physiological going on. Although its true that my voice gets louder when I get really excited about the topic and, conversely, when my mom forces me to say hi, please, thank you, etc. which I find meaningless then she tells me my voice is too quiet and asks me to repeat it louder. So perhaps its not just physiological but also has psychological component to it, but in any case its really hard to control.



LonelyLurker said:


> They don't want perfection, they want comfort, they don't want to feel that talking to you is a chore. You have to learn how to make people comfortable around you.


And thats what is so frustrating: why would they feel uncomfortable unless they made some value-judgement based off of some "mechanical"mishaps on how I carry on conversation. And the toher thing is: I want the very same feelings out of interactions that they want, which is precisely why I am so bitter about being deprived of those things. Did it every occur to them? Or do they think I don't even have any feelings on that level and I, as a person, am a chore?!



LonelyLurker said:


> And this is the crux of the issue, you don't ask why reality is as it is, you ask why it isn't the way you wish it were. There isn't actually anything wrong with this line of questioning, but it won't help you to navigate the real world.


The two why questions are logically connected.



LonelyLurker said:


> This is an example, instead of ruminating on their errors you could be figuring out how to mitigate them instead.


Okay lets go to concrete example. http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...unity-with-either-of-those-two-girls-2039721/ So how would you suggest I approach situation with either of those two girls without looking creepy: I mean if I bring it up to them, they might find it creepy I still remember all those details yet didn't say anything for past two years in case of girl 1 or past year in case of girl 2. I guess girl 2 is more important than girl 1 since I transferred schools so girl 2 is the only one who goes to the same school I do. So how do you suggest I tackle it with girl 2 without looking creepy?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> See, that is precisely what I find so ridiculous. As you just said yourself, they feel "unimportant", "not valued", etc. Yet on my end I am obsessing about them for hours.


How they feel is more important than what is true, unless you can adequately prevent them from feeling that way in the first place or convince them otherwise.



causalset said:


> Incidentally, could that be why they are telling me to be happy with myself:...


The reason they probably say that is because it's a cliché.



causalset said:


> I am not shouting: my voice is naturally loud.


And others perceive your loud voice as shouting, again, when it comes to the opinions of others, perception trumps reality.

I hate small talk, it mentally exhausts me to do it, yet I do it anyway, because that's the reality of the world we live in.



causalset said:


> And the toher thing is: I want the very same feelings out of interactions that they want, which is precisely why I am so bitter about being deprived of those things. Did it every occur to them? Or do they think I don't even have any feelings on that level and I, as a person, am a chore?!


They probably aren't concerned about you getting what you need at all, they don't need to be. Life's not fair, that's the reality. I can't tell you what they think with any degree of certainty for obvious reasons.



causalset said:


> The two why questions are logically connected.


One is philosophical pondering the other allows you to manipulate your environment, you need the latter.



causalset said:


> Okay lets go to concrete example. http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...unity-with-either-of-those-two-girls-2039721/ So how would you suggest I approach situation with either of those two girls without looking creepy: I mean if I bring it up to them, they might find it creepy I still remember all those details yet didn't say anything for past two years in case of girl 1 or past year in case of girl 2. I guess girl 2 is more important than girl 1 since I transferred schools so girl 2 is the only one who goes to the same school I do. So how do you suggest I tackle it with girl 2 without looking creepy?


I'm sorry I just can't read long posts ATM. I'd suggest you learn from your mistakes (you may not have been able to think at the time but you've had plenty of time to do so since then) and move on.

You can try talking them as platonic friends and see if it leads anywhere but you'll probably have to just view it as a learning experience and move on.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> How they feel is more important than what is true, unless you can adequately prevent them from feeling that way in the first place *or convince them otherwise. *


There were some girls that I met through dating sites whom I tried to convince otherwise but they weren't buying it. And thats what makes no sense: if I explicitly tell them that yes I do have emotional needs, why would they not believe me? If I didn't have said emotional needs, what would be the point of lying that I do? The only reason people lie is to gain something. Well what would I possibly gain if I presumably didn't have any emotional needs? And, consequently, why would I lie about it?



LonelyLurker said:


> The reason they probably say that is because it's a cliché.


There are examples where people seem to actually believe this stuff. For example, take the reply by @gnomealone on http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/waitress-at-applebees-2052369/index3.html that says the following:



gnomealone said:


> Man, this is why I rarely post .....
> 
> causalset,
> 
> ...


Now, to me that kind of advice makes absolutely no sense. If the exact reason why I feel so bad about myself is that I am single, then the obvious solution is to get into relationship if the opportunity presents itself. Yet @gnomealone tells me the opposite, he tells me to purposely turn down any relationship opportunity until I learn to be happy with myself first, and it makes absolutely no sense: how would I possibly be happy with myself if I am purposely turning down every opportunity to make myself happy? Well, as you will find from the last replies to the thred, the waitress in question doesn't like me so thats moot in her case, but I am not talking about the waitress, I am talking about the thinking of @gnomealone since his thinking seems quite common and it just makes no sense.

Now, going back to the point you were making, lets put two things side by side. On the one hand, you said how women feel like they are unimportant, unappreciated, and so forth. And that makes no sense: why would I find unimportant the very thing I am so bitter about missing out on? And then, on the other hand, there is that advice to be happy with myself being thrown around (whether you call it a cliche or not) and it feels ridiculous in that same exact way: why would I not want a relationship if the relationship is the very thing I am so upset about missing out on? So do you think that women who feel unappreciated and @gnomealone who told me to be happy with myself are actually making the same EXACT conceptual mistake? Sure, you might call it a cliche, but it is cliche on BOTH sides: neither women nor @gnomealone ever bother to question their assumptions. So they were both basically traiened by society to think that way, even though on a face value it makes absolutely no sense.



LonelyLurker said:


> And others perceive your loud voice as shouting, again, when it comes to the opinions of others, perception trumps reality.


Well I wish I could communicate to them somehow that shouting wasn't my intention.



LonelyLurker said:


> I hate small talk, it mentally exhausts me to do it, yet I do it anyway, because that's the reality of the world we live in.


In my case I wish I COULD do small talk since it clearly brings people closer, but I don't know how to do it. So what are the techniques that you use?



LonelyLurker said:


> They probably aren't concerned about you getting what you need at all, they don't need to be. Life's not fair, that's the reality. I can't tell you what they think with any degree of certainty for obvious reasons.


But here is the thing. If they knew that I feel the same things they do, then maybe they wouldn't find talking to me so disgustihng. I mean, whats behind that disgust is that they are assuming that I am some kind of monster or something. But if they knew I am monster only on the outside but not on the inside, maybe they would have felt different. And the fact that I hae the same emotional needs they do, thats the proof right there that I am not a monster. Let me give you an example: so one of the girls whom I met online turned me down because I talked about my ex-s too much. But then when I started asking her for second chances she simply used "its not you its me" line in conjunction that she doesn't trust men in general because men always end up leaving her. But you see, even from completely selfish perspective, I don't see why I would possibly want to leave someone: if she just solved my whole loneliness problem, why would I want to subject myself to that loneliness all over again? So apparenbtly the guys that left her lack those emotional needs that I have. And thats why if only I could convince her of my emotinoal needs she would have trusted me that I won't leave her. Now I realize that this line of reasoning sounds selfish, but you see I am not saying that thats the onhly reason I won't leave her (for example I stayed with my second ex out of pity even though I no longer liked her, so thats an example of non-selfish reason to stay) but the point I am trying to make is that if people knew about my emotional needs, they wouldn't have been coming to the conclusions that they did, and the selfish aspect of my reasoning is the best way to illustrate it.



LonelyLurker said:


> One is philosophical pondering the other allows you to manipulate your environment, you need the latter.


Okay if you look at a math problem and you find out why the answer is 1, you will also know why the answer is not 2. On the contrary, if I have an argument as to why it "should" be 2, then I don't fully understand why its 1, even if I seemingly have a proof that its 1. So the two things are logially related and the collolarries of the are related too.



LonelyLurker said:


> I'm sorry I just can't read long posts ATM. I'd suggest you learn from your mistakes (you may not have been able to think at the time but you've had plenty of time to do so since then) and move on.
> 
> You can try talking them as platonic friends and see if it leads anywhere but you'll probably have to just view it as a learning experience and move on.


And why is that? Is it by any chance because they don't believe me that I like them, even though I was thinking about them this whole year? So why , in their mind, would I be thinking the whole year about people I don't even like?


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

causalset said:


> Yeah, thats what it is. Now what do you want me to do about it? You see, when I was complaining how unfair it is, you were telling me that I should focus on actions not words. And now that I am trying to focus on actions you are saying you don't know what to suggest since you haven't seen me.


Therapy. Focusing on role-play and social skills.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

If people can't see your true intentions and you can't effectively convince them then you should learn to behave in ways that remove the need to explain in the first place.



causalset said:


> There are examples where people seem to actually believe this stuff. For example, take the reply by @gnomealone on http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/waitress-at-applebees-2052369/index3.html that says the following:


I've always thought that was bad advice built on an obvious fallacy. Normal people have issues too, if everybody waited until they had solved their problems before looking for a relationship our species would have died out long ago. You should try to improve but you should also remain open to any opportunities that may arise.



causalset said:


> In my case I wish I COULD do small talk since it clearly brings people closer, but I don't know how to do it. So what are the techniques that you use?


Most people aren't actually very good at small talk (you don't really have to be that skilled) but there are lots of things that come into play, you have to learn by trial and error. The basics are, paying attention, appearing interested, asking questions and providing personal input, these things build rapport.



causalset said:


> Okay if you look at a math problem and you find out why the answer is 1, you will also know why the answer is not 2. On the contrary, if I have an argument as to why it "should" be 2, then I don't fully understand why its 1, even if I seemingly have a proof that its 1. So the two things are logially related and the collolarries of the are related too.


That would be true if you were willing to accept the answer "because it's 1", but you're not. Why aren't people the way you wish they were? Because they are the way they are, it really is that simple.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> If people can't see your true intentions *and you can't effectively convince them* then you should learn to behave in ways that remove the need to explain in the first place.


And why can't I? I mean, I will slip up from time to time, nobody is perfect. So why is there no communication that would enable me to explain myself?



LonelyLurker said:


> I've always thought that was bad advice built on an obvious fallacy. Normal people have issues too, if everybody waited until they had solved their problems before looking for a relationship our species would have died out long ago. You should try to improve but you should also remain open to any opportunities that may arise.


Glad we agree on this one. Now, lets ask ourselves this question: WHY do people come up with such a bad advice? I think that the misconception that causes this advise to be produced is the very same misconception that causes people to feel unappreciated. In particular, the misconception is that its possible for a person not to enjoy the things that are obviously enjoyable (whether that means not to enjoy relationship even if such opportunity presents itself OR not to appreciate the things others do for them). So since you agree with me that people are wrong when they give an advice not to start a relationship, perhaps you will be able to also agree with me that people are wrong when they feel unappreciated.



LonelyLurker said:


> Most people aren't actually very good at small talk (you don't really have to be that skilled) but there are lots of things that come into play, you have to learn by trial and error. The basics are, paying attention, appearing interested, asking questions and providing personal input, these things build rapport.


When I try to think of topics to talk about I normally come up with huge ones, such as myself and my problems or asking people to clarify various words they using and lots of details on where they came from or something controversial like politics and religion, but then its no longer a small talk. I have no clue what the topics for small talk would be.



LonelyLurker said:


> That would be true if you were willing to accept the answer "because it's 1", but you're not. Why aren't people the way you wish they were? Because they are the way they are, it really is that simple.


If one calculation tells me its 1 and the other one tells me its 2, then I have to find mistake in one of those calculations. Until I find a mistake I am not happy with either answer. That is actually true in a literal sense: I make math mistakes in my work and when I get two different answers I won't accept either one until I find a mistake.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

You have got to STOP making this an intellectual exercise. This isn't physics...it isn't an absolute formulaic process. You can't control what others think, feel, or do so atop expecting a guaranteed cause/effect from your efforts or demand acceptance, understanding, or a chance to explain.

Keep clean and just be a nice and approachable guy who doesn't interrogate every person you interact with.

Done.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

I think your main problem is that you're coming off as entitled, dude.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

And so we're back at the crossroads, you have to make a choice, reality or rationalisation.



causalset said:


> And why can't I? I mean, I will slip up from time to time, nobody is perfect. So why is there no communication that would enable me to explain myself?


Hypothetically you could but the reality is that you aren't, therefore, try something different in order to produce a different result.



causalset said:


> Glad we agree on this one. Now, lets ask ourselves this question: WHY do people come up with such a bad advice?.


I ask myself questions like this all the time but I also realise that my musings have no effect on reality, therefore, I've learnt how to deal with reality on it's terms.



causalset said:


> When I try to think of topics to talk about I normally come up with huge ones, such as myself and my problems or asking people to clarify various words they using and lots of details on where they came from or something controversial like politics and religion, but then its no longer a small talk. I have no clue what the topics for small talk would be.


Most people like to talk about themselves or their own interests, you are clearly no exception as shown above. You have to either find a way to care about other people and their opinions (maybe so that you can figure people out and apply that knowledge in your own life) or at the very least pretend (lots of people just pretend and are really waiting for their turn to speak, when you observe you see it all the time).



causalset said:


> If one calculation tells me its 1 and the other one tells me its 2, then I have to find mistake in one of those calculations. Until I find a mistake I am not happy with either answer. That is actually true in a literal sense: I make math mistakes in my work and when I get two different answers I won't accept either one until I find a mistake.


Well, you have found a mistake in your rationalisation calculation, you just won't accept it. The world doesn't work the way you want it to, that's the answer, that's the reality.

Reality or rationalisation, which do you choose?

I can only help you if you choose reality.
@SofaKing & @acidicwithpanic are both right BTW.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> And so we're back at the crossroads, you have to make a choice, reality or rationalisation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay if you look at the way you phrase it, you didn't say that others don't listen, you said that *I* don't explain myself. So could it be that there *is* a way to explain myself, its just the way I go about it is wrong? If so, can you elaborate?



LonelyLurker said:


> causalset said:
> 
> 
> > Glad we agree on this one. Now, lets ask ourselves this question: WHY do people come up with such a bad advice?.
> ...


But I thought in one of the previous replies you told me that its okay to ask "why others do X" its just not okay to be asking "why aren't they doing Y". Even though I said I don't see big difference here, let me go along with what you said and put my question in the former format rather than the latter. So, why is it that people give an advice not to date until you are happy with yourself? I realize you agree with me its a bad advice, but its still a valid question as to why do people do something we both consider bad?



LonelyLurker said:


> Most people like to talk about themselves or their own interests, you are clearly no exception as shown above. You have to either find a way to care about other people and their opinions (maybe so that you can figure people out and apply that knowledge in your own life) or at the very least pretend (lots of people just pretend and are really waiting for their turn to speak, when you observe you see it all the time).


When I talk about myself it puts people off, yes. But thats not the only thing that puts them off. The other thing that puts them off is when I ask them to remind me who they are. But I thought thats the question about them, not me? Okay I guess with this one the "practical" solution is simple: I have to put on more effort to remember names and faces -- after all I would have to do that anyway in order to be able to ask anything else about them. But then the list goes on. Suppose I recognize them, and I can't think of anything to ask about them, so I start asking some mundane things like what "exact" classes they are taking, and "exactly" why. That would put them off too. So yeah I just can't think of what are the "good" things to ask. Do you have any suggestions?



LonelyLurker said:


> Well, you have found a mistake in your rationalisation calculation, you just won't accept it. The world doesn't work the way you want it to, that's the answer, that's the reality.
> 
> Reality or rationalisation, which do you choose?


Are you sure you are using the word rationalization correctly? I thought rationalization is something like this: if I don't want to go to the gym, I might rationalize it with the fact that I need to do some groceries, when actually there is no need to do groceries, I simply don't want to go to the gym. But when it comes to my discussion about other people, I am not doing it: even though what I am saying is a theory and I don't know what they "actually" think, this is the best theory I can come up with, thats why its not rationalization. I mean, rationalization would be avoiding the truth, but here I am not avoiding it, I would love someone to tell me " well your theory is wrong, here is the actual explanation". But you see they don't say the second part, they just tell me my theory is wrong but they don't give me the actual explanation thats not wrong, thats why I keep talking about my theories.

Now I realize that you already touched on this point and you told me that there is an explanation of why they do what they do, I simply am asking a different question namely why don't they do things the way I want them to do. But how about I rephrase it: my assumption that people should do what I want them to do is based off of an assumption that people are compassionate. So, the question is: am I wrong in thinking they are compassionate? Or if they are, in fact, compassionate, why don't they have compassion towards me? Do they assume I am subhuman and, thus, lack feelings altogether? I realize that nobody starts relationship out of compassion, but still I can even ask why don't they want to be friends with me or in fact even associate with me in any level at all, and then I can ask that question.

Or here is another question I could ask. You talked about them feeling unappreciated and unimportant. Yet at the same time, there is a small portion of those people whom I been pestering about that very thing (namely, those are the girls I met online whom I didn't see in person: I wouldn't pester people in person). So if they think they are unimportant, how do they interpret the fact that I pester them? Its not about what "I want" people to do. Its about simple logic. How is it logically possible for someone to pester someone they don't care about?

And here is yet another logical question. As you implicitly suggest in your advice, it IS possible to change (in fact you are helping me do so). But, in this case, why do they make a decision ahead of time to never date me, if I might change? Once again, its not about what I want: I mean if I do change into a great person, it would be in *their* interest to date me, wouldn't it? So the fact that they claim otherwise indicates an assumption that they make: namely, that I will never change. So why do they make that assumption, despite all the ways in which I could change (such as the ones you suggesting)?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

acidicwithpanic said:


> I think your main problem is that you're coming off as entitled, dude.


First of all, people I interact with don't see my posts so how do they know I am entitled? Or are you saying there are subtle ways in which they might know: as in, I do talk about my failures, just a lot less then here (true), and even 5 minutes of this would assure that they know I am entitled? Or do you think it comes through my body language when they don't talk to me and I look upset, they actually know exactly why I am upset without my saying anything, and that tells them I am entitled?

But going back to the main point: have you considered that anyone would feel entitled if they were in my shoes? I mean, you take for granted that, even if you don't necesserely date, at least people talk to you like a normal person. So, what if one day everyone were to stop talking to you, start giving you disgusted looks when you walk by, and it kept going on for months and years on end. How would you feel? I guess "technically speaking" you could use the word "entitled": in particular, we feel "entitled" to being treated like normal humans, even though there is no law that says we should be, and nobody "owes" us any type of interaction. But, despite the fact that normal interaction isn't "owed" to anyone, people still all have it and take it for granted; so in this sense we are all entitled so to speak, and everyone would be bitter if they were in my shoes, whether they would verbalize it or not.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

SofaKing said:


> Keep clean and just be a nice and *approachable* guy who doesn't interrogate every person you interact with.


I guess the "appraochable" part is the one I don't know how to do. And that concept of being "approachable" is precisely what I am so bitter about. Others have mastered social skills to the point that they take it for granted. But for me, its far from something to be taken for granted. Approachable means doing whatever it is that would make people approach me. But what exactly is it? Apparently I don't know, since nobody ever approaches me. And thats what I am so frustrated about.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

causalset said:


> I guess the "appraochable" part is the one I don't know how to do. And that concept of being "approachable" is precisely what I am so bitter about. Others have mastered social skills to the point that they take it for granted. But for me, its far from something to be taken for granted. Approachable means doing whatever it is that would make people approach me. But what exactly is it? Apparently I don't know, since nobody ever approaches me. And thats what I am so frustrated about.


You keep yourself presentable...you smile when you can. You give simple greetings as you see someone. You engage them in their day and seem genuinely interested in their thoughts, feelings, dreams, etc. You listen, actively. You don't interrupt. You don't change the subject to something about you or only something that interests you. You don't argue...you don't get into tantrums. You don't become the grand inquisitor. You save your enormous intellect for your studies and just be a simple guy for all others until you meet someone that can handle your intensity.

There is no manual, textbook, video, formula, etc. that defines this. You just have to lead by example and try things out despite them feeling foreign and uncomfortable. There are models of behavior walking around you all day, every day, doing what you should be doing. You just hold them in contempt and refuse to learn from them.

Countless SASers, including myself, have spent loads of effort doing our best to give the insight that we can, but you've consistently and repeatedly rejected all the advice as something that hasn't or won't work for you in the "real world".

Perhaps there is a professional that is better suited to getting through. I know I'm not the one.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

SofaKing said:


> You keep yourself presentable...you smile when you can. You give simple greetings as you see someone. You engage them in their day and seem genuinely interested in their thoughts, feelings, dreams, etc. You listen, actively. You don't interrupt. You don't change the subject to something about you or only something that interests you. You don't argue...you don't get into tantrums. You don't become the grand inquisitor. You save your enormous intellect for your studies and just be a simple guy for all others until you meet someone that can handle your intensity.


Obviously I can't change the past. So I need to use this advise for future interaction. The question is: when will I have said interaction in order to impliment that advice? So far, I had one interaction in few months, during that interaction I was blowing it by admittedly "not" following the above advice, and then I was desperately waiting for next opportunity that only came few months later, and then the whole thing repeated.

So lets go back to "approachable" part. If I were "approachable", people would "apporach" me, so I wouldn't have to wait few months, I would only have to wait few hours. And what makes people "approach" me? Obviously I didn't have a chance to talk to them "yet", "before" they "approached" me. So I guess it goes back to the first three items: "presentable, smile, greeting". I put some effort on #1 these past few days, nothing changed. As far as #2 and #3, its very occasional and mostly under my breath so others don't notice it, and then I get no reply. So I guess try to force myself to make it more obvious? But still I am sure it was audible at least on a couple of occasions, but they didn't respond.



SofaKing said:


> Countless SASers, including myself, have spent loads of effort doing our best to give the insight that we can, but you've consistently and repeatedly rejected all the advice as something that hasn't or won't work for you in the "real world".
> 
> Perhaps there is a professional that is better suited to getting through. I know I'm not the one.


I mean a lot of what you and others said DID make sense, I just had additional questions about it. Pehraps thats one of my problems: when some part makes sense, I don't acknowledge it, but when some other part doesn't then I talk about it, so thats why it sounds like nothing makes sense. So what if I were to say "okay you said A and B, and in fact A makes a lot of sense, indeed (....) but here are the questions I have about B (.....) " would that sound better? I guess I just skip the first part since it serves no logical purpose -- but actually it DOES have a purpose: it would communicate that you aren't just wasting your time when talking to me, so maybe I should try that.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

I'm done...sorry.

If you can't act without an excruciating intellectual exercise, there's nothing I can do.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

causalset said:


> First of all, people I interact with don't see my posts so how do they know I am entitled? Or are you saying there are subtle ways in which they might know: as in, I do talk about my failures, just a lot less then here (true), and even 5 minutes of this would assure that they know I am entitled? Or do you think it comes through my body language when they don't talk to me and I look upset, they actually know exactly why I am upset without my saying anything, and that tells them I am entitled?
> 
> But going back to the main point: have you considered that anyone would feel entitled if they were in my shoes? I mean, you take for granted that, even if you don't necesserely date, at least people talk to you like a normal person. So, what if one day everyone were to stop talking to you, start giving you disgusted looks when you walk by, and it kept going on for months and years on end. How would you feel? I guess "technically speaking" you could use the word "entitled": in particular, we feel "entitled" to being treated like normal humans, even though there is no law that says we should be, and nobody "owes" us any type of interaction. But, despite the fact that normal interaction isn't "owed" to anyone, people still all have it and take it for granted; so in this sense we are all entitled so to speak, and everyone would be bitter if they were in my shoes, whether they would verbalize it or not.


Do you ever stop to think that maybe there are a few things about yourself you need to work on too? Your posts come off as if you expect other people to change so that they can cater to your every need. If that's how you come off as in real life, then people are going to avoid you like AIDS. That's just the reality of it.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Okay if you look at the way you phrase it, you didn't say that others don't listen, you said that *I* don't explain myself. So could it be that there *is* a way to explain myself, its just the way I go about it is wrong? If so, can you elaborate?


Obsessing about how to explain your errors when you could be trying to address them isn't logical.



causalset said:


> But I thought in one of the previous replies you told me that its okay to ask "why others do X" its just not okay to be asking "why aren't they doing Y". Even though I said I don't see big difference here, let me go along with what you said and put my question in the former format rather than the latter. So, why is it that people give an advice not to date until you are happy with yourself? I realize you agree with me its a bad advice, but its still a valid question as to why do people do something we both consider bad?


What I said is that asking those questions is fine unless it comes at the expense of asking what actually works (in reality), that should be your priority, I won't help you to hold yourself back.



causalset said:


> Okay I guess with this one the "practical" solution is simple: I have to put on more effort to remember names and faces -- after all I would have to do that anyway in order to be able to ask anything else about them.


Correct.



causalset said:


> But then the list goes on. Suppose I recognize them, and I can't think of anything to ask about them, so I start asking some mundane things like what "exact" classes they are taking, and "exactly" why. That would put them off too. So yeah I just can't think of what are the "good" things to ask. Do you have any suggestions?


Depends on the person, if I asked you what the 7th word on page 56 is, would you be able to tell me before you know what book I'm referring to?

No, no you wouldn't.



causalset said:


> Are you sure you are using the word rationalization correctly?


Yes, the definition is as follows.



> the action of attempting to explain or justify behaviour or an attitude with logical reasons, even if these are not appropriate.


The reality is that your current behaviour is deemed unacceptable to those you interact with, you *could *choose to acknowledge this and change. Instead you have chosen to attempt to justify your current behaviour and place responsibility onto others, that's rationalisation.

As such, unless you show that you're ready to stop doing this I'll have to stop responding, as previously stated, I won't help you to hold yourself back.

Take care.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> As such, *unless you show that you're ready to stop doing this* I'll have to stop responding, as previously stated, I won't help you to hold yourself back.


Okay, I will show you that I can change the focus of my questions. Here it goes:



LonelyLurker said:


> The reality is that your current behaviour is deemed unacceptable to those you interact with, you *could *choose to acknowledge this and change.


In order for me to change I need to interact on the first place. My main concern was that people avoid interacting with me because of what they have seen in the past (hence the need to explain the past to get a second chance). But now you are saying that I can get said interactions without any explanations at all? Well that would be great. So tell me exactly what should I do? What should I do to get girls talk to me? And then I will stop focusing on the past and start thinking about upcoming interactions.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

acidicwithpanic said:


> Do you ever stop to think that maybe there are a few things about yourself you need to work on too? Your posts come off as if you expect other people to change so that they can cater to your every need. If that's how you come off as in real life, then people are going to avoid you like AIDS. That's just the reality of it.


Okay then I wasn't communicating things correctly. If you go look at the way I bargain with girls on the dating sites whom I put off, I typically say something like this "everything would have been perfect if only I didn't do X, so can you give me a second chance so that I won't do X this time" (in one case X was talking about ex-s, in the other case it was asking too much whether she would leave me, in yet another case it was appearing negative, and so forth). Now the girls would either deny that it is my fault and/or tell me that I have to be who I am, and I would tell them "yes I know it was my fault: just look at how close we were before I said such and such and how cold you became afterwords" or "how can you say it has nothing to do with my doing such and such if short while ago you just told me it did? You are only saying it has nothing to do with it in order to get me off your back, I know it has to do with what I did, so can I have a second chance to undo it".

Anyway, I fully acknowledge I was super pushy in those interactions. But what I am trying to tell you is that yes, I do acknolwedge things I do wrong, as you can see from the things I say. My issue is that I need second chances in order to "undo" the things I did wrong, and I don't seem to get second chances, ever.

And by the way, those pushy interactions are, like I said, with girls online. On the other hand, in person, I don't talk at all, which is why I am wondering how would people know how pushy I get.

Anyway, whats your advice: so I do know I make certain mistakes, what should I do in order to get a chance in order to do better? I mean I can't go back to the past, so what would you suggest I do? I fully realize arguing is a horrible option, but what are the better options?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> In order for me to change I need to interact on the first place. My main concern was that people avoid interacting with me because of what they have seen in the past (hence the need to explain the past to get a second chance). But now you are saying that I can get said interactions without any explanations at all? Well that would be great. So tell me exactly what should I do? What should I do to get girls talk to me? And then I will stop focusing on the past and start thinking about upcoming interactions.


You do not have to interact with people in order to make changes, making changes is something that is completely within your control, stop trying to defer personal responsibility.

As I've told you on a few occasions, you should be concentrating on making new connections primarily not trying to change the opinions of those who have already judged you negatively. How do you convince those who have already judged you? With argumentation? No.

By actually being different.

You've already been told of things you should be doing, you just need to stop ruminating and do it.

The first thing would be to stop expecting people to come to you, accept that you could and should be making an effort yourself.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> As I've told you on a few occasions, you should be concentrating on making new connections primarily not trying to change the opinions of those who have already judged you negatively.


Okay just so you know, its not just me who insists on making connections with people in my department. When I complain to people on facebook why I have no friends one of the first things they often ask is "have you tried making friends at your department?" and one of them actually said something like that "if your concern is social interactions I would suggest focusing on your peers; the undergrads at your dorm are not your peers; grad students in your department are". Okay, so now I am trying to follow that advice, so what to do with my department if its a pretty small department and they all already know me one way or the other.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Okay just so you know, its not just me who insists on making connections with people in my department. When I complain to people on facebook why I have no friends one of the first things they often ask is "have you tried making friends at your department?" and one of them actually said something like that "if your concern is social interactions I would suggest focusing on your peers; the undergrads at your dorm are not your peers; grad students in your department are". Okay, so now I am trying to follow that advice, so what to do with my department if its a pretty small department and they all already know me one way or the other.


In that case you should probably be asking them to help you, I'm guessing they probably don't know that you have already made a bad first impression.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> In that case you should probably be asking them to help you


Okay I am not rejecting one advice in favor of the other, I am just trying to put them side by side and see what the ultimate advice I get. So anyway, in your opinion they are wrong. Fair enough. So where do you suggest I make friends? I guess waitresses or girls at various political tables are bad ideas since they talk to me with only a specific goal in mind. As far as church that is a lot more reasonable, but I am already going to church and no luck so far. So what else would you suggest?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> Okay I am not rejecting one advice in favor of the other, I am just trying to put them side by side and see what the ultimate advice I get. So anyway, in your opinion they are wrong. Fair enough. So where do you suggest I make friends? I guess waitresses or girls at various political tables are bad ideas since they talk to me with only a specific goal in mind. As far as church that is a lot more reasonable, but I am already going to church and no luck so far. So what else would you suggest?


Personally, I would suggest learning how to talk to people (not just women) in an engaging manner wherever you meet them. That could be church, local events/clubs/meetups, wherever people are willing to talk and aren't doing so with an obvious ulterior motive (like doing their job, though that doesn't make it impossible).

If you can do that, some of them will be women and you can potentially see if anything develops.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> Personally, I would suggest learning how to talk to people (not just women) in an engaging manner wherever you meet them. That could be church, local events/clubs/meetups, wherever people are willing to talk and aren't doing so with an obvious ulterior motive (like doing their job, though that doesn't make it impossible).
> 
> If you can do that, some of them will be women and you can potentially see if anything develops.


I am already going to church, and I haven't made friends so far. I guess there are few exceptions to this. For example, I reconnected with someone whom I used to know many years ago at the other university I went to; but she is married and, to make it worse, it seems like she assumes I would never have my own wife (as evident from how she evades the subject when I mention my ex-s as if she assumes they are imaginary ones) so that makes me feel inferior. I go to a couple of other churches, and I can think of a couple of people who are probably in their 50-s that talk to me; but we aren't that close and like I said they are in their 50-s so I am not sure how they would lead me to the type of connections I am looking for.

I guess perhaps I could expand the things I attend by going to meetup groups. I actually signed up for several, but ended up not going because I am too busy with my classes. I guess you could say that its my fault that I am taking 5 classes when most people take only 3; but I don't want to compromise my academic aspirations based on friendship. Besides, don't they say that friendship should develop naturally? In this case, wouldn't the most natural type of friendship be the one with fellow students? Which brings me back to the previous things I was saying.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> I am already going to church, and I haven't made friends so far. I guess there are few exceptions to this. For example, I reconnected with someone whom I used to know many years ago at the other university I went to; but she is married and, to make it worse, it seems like she assumes I would never have my own wife (as evident from how she evades the subject when I mention my ex-s as if she assumes they are imaginary ones) so that makes me feel inferior. I go to a couple of other churches, and I can think of a couple of people who are probably in their 50-s that talk to me; but we aren't that close and like I said they are in their 50-s so I am not sure how they would lead me to the type of connections I am looking for.
> 
> I guess perhaps I could expand the things I attend by going to meetup groups. I actually signed up for several, but ended up not going because I am too busy with my classes. I guess you could say that its my fault that I am taking 5 classes when most people take only 3; but I don't want to compromise my academic aspirations based on friendship. Besides, don't they say that friendship should develop naturally? In this case, wouldn't the most natural type of friendship be the one with fellow students? Which brings me back to the previous things I was saying.


The location isn't the key factor, your behaviour is.

I have noticed you always talk about people coming to you, maybe you need to start going to them instead, they aren't the one that's desperate (well, they could be but that's not the point).

You either think it's worth the effort or you don't, if you don't, that's fine, just don't expect the same results as someone that does.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> The location isn't the key factor, your behaviour is.
> 
> I have noticed you always talk about people coming to you, maybe you need to start going to them instead, they aren't the one that's desperate (well, they could be but that's not the point).
> 
> You either think it's worth the effort or you don't, if you don't, that's fine, just don't expect the same results as someone that does.


The point is that the fact that people don't approach me themselves indicates that they don't like me; and if they don't like me, why impose on them something they don't like? I mean, you even agree with me: remember how you mentioned in one of the previous responses that people in my department don't like me and thats why you want me to search for company elsewhere. Now, how do you know the people in the department don't like me? From the fact that they don't approach me! Here you go. Well, wouldn't that exact same reasoning apply to all the other places where they don't approach me? So thats why I am thinking that people not approaching me is an indication that I am disliked, which is precisely why I don't approach them unless they do.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

causalset said:


> The point is that the fact that people don't approach me themselves indicates that they don't like me; and if they don't like me, why impose on them something they don't like? I mean, you even agree with me: remember how you mentioned in one of the previous responses that people in my department don't like me and thats why you want me to search for company elsewhere. Now, how do you know the people in the department don't like me? From the fact that they don't approach me! Here you go. Well, wouldn't that exact same reasoning apply to all the other places where they don't approach me? So thats why I am thinking that people not approaching me is an indication that I am disliked, which is precisely why I don't approach them unless they do.


The reason I say they don't like you is because you ask about how to get a second chance (which you wouldn't be doing if you had made a good first impression). I don't know them, you could be wrong, they might not dislike you at all, I can't know.

Does the fact you don't approach people indicate you dislike them? Logic works both ways.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

And so the intellectual exercise continues...the virtual existence.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

SofaKing said:


> And so the intellectual exercise continues...the virtual existence.


 @LonelyLurker has got more patience than Jesus.


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I copied and pasted a couple of articles into a dada poem generator lol.


I have a theory that Hollywood stars use this generator to help name their children. Plausible?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Post_Punk_Proclivity said:


> I have a theory that Hollywood stars use this generator to help name their children. Plausible?


lol that could be it. It's pretty fun so I've been using it to generate lines for my signature recently.


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

acidicwithpanic said:


> @*LonelyLurker* has got more patience than Jesus.


So does HiddenFathoms.


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