# Tapering Klonopin and withdrawal



## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

I thought drugs were the answer when I first started out on this SA journey. I would constantly research new drugs or obsess over ones that people said worked for them. After trying just about every drug in the book short of maois, I've realized no drug can change the way I am. I have to do that myself. If meds have worked for you, I think thats great, but as of now they're not for me.

I've decided to taper off klonopin after using it for almost 2 years. I feel like the downfalls outweigh the benefits. I can't deal with the mental fog it causes. It no longer works for my anxiety like it used to. I feel like the tolerance to this drug has messed up the chemistry in my brain and I just want to stop it. I've come to realize that the majority of my anxiety has come from wacked out thought patterns. I want to correct these thoughts. I feel as though the klonopin only worked by suppressing those thoughts. 

I've been tapering off from my average of 1.5-2mg a day. Every three days I go down .125 mg. As of now I'm at .75 mg a day. The withdrawal effects haven't been as bad as I thought they would be. However, I still get bad insomnia and some abnormal withdrawal anxiety. The worst of it just started coming as of late. It's not easy coming off it even at the moderately low dose I was taking. 

Does any one else have any experience tapering off of benzos?


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Hey, yeah I successfully withdrew from klonopin a few months ago, It wasnt as bad as I expected it to be, My advice would be to go slow. Withdraw by .125 every week, and once your down to .25 a day, take it every second day for a week or 2 until your off it completly, in the meantime perhaps you could try something like Trazodone or Mirtazapine to control the insomnia. Best of luck, hope this helps.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

jim_morrison said:


> Hey, yeah I successfully withdrew from klonopin a few months ago, It wasnt as bad as I expected it to be, My advice would be to go slow. Withdraw by .125 every week, and once your down to .25 a day, take it every second day for a week or 2 until your off it completly, in the meantime perhaps you could try something like Trazodone or Mirtazapine to control the insomnia. Best of luck, hope this helps.


Thanks, thats really good to hear. I think maybe I should slow it down a little I just want to get off of it ASAP.

How are things now? How long were you on it and what dose? Are you taking anything now, or trying therapy?


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## arth77 (Jun 4, 2009)

make sure you dont run out of tablets


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

I am going trough something similar as you only I am tapering from xanax, I tried switching to clonazepam but I haven't been able to make a complete switch gust yet the Ideal would be to gradually change over to diazepam the Ashton method 
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm
Withdrawal from clonazepam (Klonopin) 1.5mg daily with substitution of diazepam (Valium)
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s5
Hope this helps I know next time i will ask my doctor for some diazepam for my taper
good luck!


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

BradPit said:


> I am going trough something similar as you only I am tapering from xanax, I tried switching to clonazepam but I haven't been able to make a complete switch gust yet the Ideal would be to gradually change over to diazepam the Ashton method
> http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm
> Withdrawal from clonazepam (Klonopin) 1.5mg daily with substitution of diazepam (Valium)
> http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s5
> ...


Wow man thanks! I haven't had a huge problem with clonazepam. I think its long acting enough. Xanax could probably be a problem with how short it's half life is.

What kind of symptoms have you been having with your withdrawal?


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Redefine said:


> Thanks, thats really good to hear. I think maybe I should slow it down a little I just want to get off of it ASAP.
> 
> How are things now? How long were you on it and what dose? Are you taking anything now, or trying therapy?


Yeah I can understand you wanting to get off it as quick as possible. 
I was taking a low dose 1.5 mg, for 6 months.
Things now are ok, I take Mirtazapine which really helps with my insomnia, it's also pretty good for depression, there's still some breakthrough anxiety though which I feel only Klonopin really dealt with.


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## BradPit (Apr 8, 2008)

Redefine said:


> Wow man thanks! I haven't had a huge problem with clonazepam. I think its long acting enough. Xanax could probably be a problem with how short it's half life is.
> 
> What kind of symptoms have you been having with your withdrawal?


There are many symptoms here is a list of some of them ( i didn't get all of them) 
the worst I would say are rebound Insomnia paranoia and anxiety...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal#Withdrawal_symptoms


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

Update: 

I've been having a hard time finishing meals lately and have dropped 5 lbs. This isn't good I'm about 5'9" and about 145 at the present moment. I was at my best weight at 155 lbs. This was when I was working out and eating well. My doctor said its most likely caused by the withdrawal and he has slowed down my taper schedule as well as given me Pristiq for anxiety. Pristiq is the newer form of effexor.

I was a little hesitant going back on an anti-depressant, but I'll give it a shot and see if it works at all on this withdrawal anxiety. He said if it has negative effects just stop it and go without it.

Has anyone else taken an SSRI or other type of antidepressant to combat withdrawal anxiety?


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Redefine said:


> Update:
> 
> I've been having a hard time finishing meals lately and have dropped 5 lbs. This isn't good I'm about 5'9" and about 145 at the present moment. I was at my best weight at 155 lbs. This was when I was working out and eating well. My doctor said its most likely caused by the withdrawal and he has slowed down my taper schedule as well as given me Pristiq for anxiety. Pristiq is the newer form of effexor.
> 
> ...


Get some pregabalin. It will give you a GABA effect without binding to the same receptors as benzos, thus should relieve withdrawal symptoms.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

euphoria said:


> Get some pregabalin. It will give you a GABA effect without binding to the same receptors as benzos, thus should relieve withdrawal symptoms.


And if you can't get any pregabalin since it's a controlled substance (albeit only Schedule V), then gabapentin should be a good substitute.


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## jjyiss (May 6, 2006)

why don't you give MAOI's a try. nardil really is the gold standard for SA.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

jjyiss said:


> why don't you give MAOI's a try. nardil really is the gold standard for SA.


I've thought about it. However no doctor has even considered putting me on an maoi. They would rather try antipsychotics before nardil. I've been through so many different meds for SA and I've never experienced true relief. Meds always come with side effects and I know maois are known for them.

I just feel like I don't want to become dependent on any kind of medication anymore. I would rather change my brain by changing my thoughts, not by any kind of drug.


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## fraidycat (Oct 29, 2004)

I'm in the same boat as you. went through the med merry go around for the last 2-3 yrs and tired, trying to get off. I never take more then 2-3 at a time, and so far have been off any antidepressant (nardil) for 3 weeks? Side effects going on or off weren't nice. Mood swings galore. I'm only on klonopin now, but I'm not going to wean off till later. It's recommended to have good coping tools before you come off it completely, or else it's easy to relapse. The coping mechanisms can be therapy, meditation + exercise, a combo of some or all of the above.

I'm currently trying to figure out a regimen of vitamins and supplements while trying to coping tools.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Redefine said:


> I just feel like I don't want to become dependent on any kind of medication anymore. I would rather change my brain by changing my thoughts, not by any kind of drug.


The ideal way to accomplish this would be by changing your thoughts while on a medication. This would help you learn how to interpret situations rationally, and then once you have learned this you can slowly taper yet those thoughts will be retained.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Redefine said:


> Update:
> 
> I've been having a hard time finishing meals lately and have dropped 5 lbs. This isn't good I'm about 5'9" and about 145 at the present moment. I was at my best weight at 155 lbs. This was when I was working out and eating well. My doctor said its most likely caused by the withdrawal and he has slowed down my taper schedule as well as given me Pristiq for anxiety. Pristiq is the newer form of effexor.
> 
> ...


If weight loss and insomnia are your main complaints, then why not try Remeron again for a little while? it's appetite and sleep enhancing effects might counteract these problems.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

jim_morrison said:


> If weight loss and insomnia are your main complaints, then why not try Remeron again for a little while? it's appetite and sleep enhancing effects might counteract these problems.


I may just do that. My doctor actually proscribed remeron for me for sleep a few months ago and I still have a full bottle left. The only problem with the remeron is it makes me sleep like 12 hours a day,lol.

The whole medication + therapy thing seems very reasonable to me. However I think that the thoughts you have when on meds are somewhat changed by the meds themselves. So when your off meds and trying therapy you're actually changing your core thought patterns. Just my thoughts.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

Update:

Man, the anxiety has really been hitting me hard lately. I doubt the pristiq is helping at all, if anything I feel worse. I constantly feel adrenaline running through my veins, I'm restless and very uneasy. Eating is getting pretty hard, I don't want to lose anymore weight. I'm still at .75 mg and haven't stabilized at this dose yet and it's been a week. 

Maybe I'm just panicking, I've been reading stuff about protracted withdrawal and I'm scared I might get it. 

I just want my brain to get back to normal.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

Remember that the mind is a powerful thing. Researchers have been able to induce withdrawal symptoms in patients by simply telling them their benzo dose was being reduced, even though no change was actually made. They experienced withdrawal simply because they expected to.

Of course, I also recall a study in which researchers were able to get volunteers high as a kite by smoking a substance they thought was marijuana. They were flying high on something that contained no more mind-altering drugs than lawn clippings, proving how you get what you expect to get.


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## DMBfan (Aug 29, 2008)

There's a book called _Surviving Panic Disorder_ and the author has tapered hundreds of patients off benzos (good quick read even if you don't suffer PD.) He suggests a taper similar to yours but his patients tend to take benzos for shorter durations (2 years may require a more gradual taper.) Most people assume that since the early cuts go smoothly the later cuts should also but that is not the author's experience. So his approach is more to be prepared to put up with some discomfort towards the end. Another thing he suggests is to try stretching out the doses (ie., from 3 to 2 times a day etc.)Try to put up with as much as you can but adjust the taper according to how you feel. Don't feel bad about taking the occasional extra dose, it won't sabotage your taper. Medline had some success with phenobarbital but that's difficult to obtain legally. Don't worry about protracted withdrawal, it's not been supported by the reasearch. It sounds like you are experiencing normal benzo withdrawal which ain't no picnic. I would not fiddle with anti-depressants or anti-psychotics during the taper because then you don't know what's causing your anxiety symptoms.


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## jjyiss (May 6, 2006)

you are tapering toooo fast. 2 years at 2mg klonopin will take awhile. i plan on tapering on clonazapam as well. i've been taking it about 2-3 years at 2mg. i plan on slowing going down from 2mg to 1.5mg in 1 month total, then to 1mg the next month, .5mg next month, and we'll see from there.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

DMBfan said:


> There's a book called _Surviving Panic Disorder_ and the author has tapered hundreds of patients off benzos (good quick read even if you don't suffer PD.) He suggests a taper similar to yours but his patients tend to take benzos for shorter durations (2 years may require a more gradual taper.) Most people assume that since the early cuts go smoothly the later cuts should also but that is not the author's experience. So his approach is more to be prepared to put up with some discomfort towards the end. Another thing he suggests is to try stretching out the doses (ie., from 3 to 2 times a day etc.)Try to put up with as much as you can but adjust the taper according to how you feel. Don't feel bad about taking the occasional extra dose, it won't sabotage your taper. Medline had some success with phenobarbital but that's difficult to obtain legally. Don't worry about protracted withdrawal, it's not been supported by the reasearch. It sounds like you are experiencing normal benzo withdrawal which ain't no picnic. I would not fiddle with anti-depressants or anti-psychotics during the taper because then you don't know what's causing your anxiety symptoms.


Interesting thanks. The last mg is definitely the hardest. I don't think I'll be taking anymore pristiq. Also I've been taking seroquel for sleep because its the only thing that puts me out and it doesn't make me as drowsy the next day as remeron does. Since its a anti-psychotic I'm gonna take your advice and stop taking it.

I don't know if the taper is too fast or not. For now I'm just going to follow my doctors orders. If anxiety gets too bad, I'm just going to have to stick through it or take 1/4 of a klonopin. I really want to stick to my schedule and get off it so I'm back to normal before the summer ends.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Hmm I've never heard of Pristiq but if it's anything like venlafaxine (Effexor) then your probly best to avoid it since it can cause a fair bit of anxiety at the start of treatment, which wouldn't be good when your already on edge from the Klonopin withdrawl. 

As for the Mirtazapine, it usually makes me sleep for about 10-12 hours a night, I try to take it earlier in the evening at about 8-9 pm to avoid sleeping in late. But if Mirtazapine doesnt agree with you then how about Trazodone? 

But yeah just keep the tapering slow and steady.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

jim_morrison said:


> Hmm I've never heard of Pristiq but if it's anything like venlafaxine (Effexor) then your probly best to avoid it since it can cause a fair bit of anxiety at the start of treatment, which wouldn't be good when your already on edge from the Klonopin withdrawl.
> 
> As for the Mirtazapine, it usually makes me sleep for about 10-12 hours a night, I try to take it earlier in the evening at about 8-9 pm to avoid sleeping in late. But if Mirtazapine doesnt agree with you then how about Trazodone?
> 
> But yeah just keep the tapering slow and steady.


Thanks for all the input man, I really appreciate it. I don't like the Pristiq at all. However, it seems as though the mirtazipine is working well on the nausea and insomnia and actually a little with the anxiety too. I'm gonna stick with it for now until I'm through with withdrawal. Honestly I think its a very good med to take when having benzo withdrawal because it helps with so many of the symptoms. I would recommend it for someone else trying to taper of a benzo, its much stronger than SSRIs.


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## DMBfan (Aug 29, 2008)

Redefine said:


> Also I've been taking seroquel for sleep because its the only...Since its a anti-psychotic I'm gonna take your advice and stop taking it.


Using Seroquel as a sleep aid is fine, that's completely different than taking it for anxiety or depression. I was referring more to the Pristiq which is a newly patented derivative of Effexor which is now generic. It's better to stabilize on a med before tapering off another because then you never know what is causing your symptoms. SSRI's and SNRI's are well known to increase anxiety when you start taking them which is precisely *not* what you want when tapering from a benzo.



> I don't know if the taper is too fast or not. For now I'm just going to follow my doctors orders. If anxiety gets too bad, I'm just going to have to stick through it or take 1/4 of a klonopin. I really want to stick to my schedule and get off it so I'm back to normal before the summer ends.


Try not to fall into the "I gotta get off these meds" mentality, I don't think it's constructive. For taking it 2 years you're pushing the limit of the taper schedule. Not necessarily a bad thing to get the worst of the withdrawals over with but you don't want to overdue it and needlessly suffer. If you have the inclination phenobarbital can be had on *cough*internet*cough*. I have a feeling that would really help with the final few weeks of the taper.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Redefine said:


> Thanks for all the input man, I really appreciate it. I don't like the Pristiq at all. However, it seems as though the mirtazipine is working well on the nausea and insomnia and actually a little with the anxiety too. I'm gonna stick with it for now until I'm through with withdrawal. Honestly I think its a very good med to take when having benzo withdrawal because it helps with so many of the symptoms. I would recommend it for someone else trying to taper of a benzo, its much stronger than SSRIs.


No problem, I'm glad to hear that the Mirtazapine is helping to control the associated symtoms, I guess it's 5HT3-antagonist antiemetic properties (anti-nausea) can really come in handy in these situations.

As for the tapering just keep it slow and remember that you will be off it completely eventually and everything will be fine, it just takes time.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Redefine said:


> Interesting thanks. The last mg is definitely the hardest. I don't think I'll be taking anymore pristiq. Also I've been taking seroquel for sleep because its the only thing that puts me out and it doesn't make me as drowsy the next day as remeron does. Since its a anti-psychotic I'm gonna take your advice and stop taking it.


Seroquel increases the seizure risk when withdrawing from benzos.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

euphoria said:


> Seroquel increases the seizure risk when withdrawing from benzos.


I've definitely noticed a difference in my anxiety after stopping seroquel. It seems that I finally stabilized on the .375 mg dose and I'm now starting on .25 mg this week.

I've always been skinny in my past and I don't like losing this weight at all. I'm below 145 now and my parents have been noticing my slimmer figure. My mom told me I'm "losing my pecs", lol. I want to start working out again, but I just don't have the energy and I haven't been eating well at all. Hopefully the Mirtazapine will help me get the weight back. I want to gain about 5 lbs before I start to work out again. I was really proud of my body before, so this kinda sucks.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Redefine said:


> I've always been skinny in my past and I don't like losing this weight at all. I'm below 145 now and my parents have been noticing my slimmer figure. My mom told me I'm "losing my pecs", lol. I want to start working out again, but I just don't have the energy and I haven't been eating well at all. Hopefully the Mirtazapine will help me get the weight back. I want to gain about 5 lbs before I start to work out again. I was really proud of my body before, so this kinda sucks.


I wouldn't worry, I was 155 lbs earlier this year, but with Mirtazapine plus lots of working out I'm now 168 lbs, mostly muscle. I'm 5'9" by the way.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

Update:

I'm on my final week of klonopin .125 mg. Last week I stabilized by the end of the week. I'm already noticing symptoms again: irritability, anxiety, headaches. One thing I noticed is facial freezing. I can't seem to smile or make a whole lot of expressions. When I talk its hard to move my lips so I'm constantly mumbling. Weird. Socially I'm worse than I used to be before klonopin. 

Anyway I'm sticking with this dose. It seems the mirtazipine isn't working as well as it did when I first started so I'm unsure what to do. It makes me way too drowsy the next day. 

I'm trying to get a job right now and I'm terrified to just talk to a manager. Hopefully when I'm done withdrawing I can get back to normal and actually be able to hold a job.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

Wahoo!

I'm completely off the klonopin for good. I'll never take another benzo in my life. The withdrawal effects were moderately bad the first few days, but I'm slowly getting better. The worst is still the insomnia and irritability/anxiety. Basically I'm just feeling very uptight and my mind just won't STFU! 

I really wish I'll get back to normal before school starts in a month in a half. For now I'm trying CBT w/o a therapist. 

Again, for all those who are considering a benzo I recommend from personal experience to go the CBT route instead.


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## jjyiss (May 6, 2006)

good job.. im still gonna take it really really slow though. hehh


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## DMBfan (Aug 29, 2008)

Redefine, good for you, I'm surprised you were able to taper so quickly. In the book I referenced he says the withdrawal effects usually peak within 5-10 days after cessation and gradually get better.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

^Thanks guys^

Yea, withdrawal hasn't been THAT bad. However perhaps I did go a little fast. The anxiety is the worst thing and hasn't really died down yet. I just want to be able to enjoy myself again. I'm still hoping to put on more weight which isn't easy with the stomach uneasiness. Also sleep is pretty hard, I can' fall asleep until late in the night and wake up at like 2 every day. Hopefully, the anxiety will fade so I can get some confidence back and start talking to more people again.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Everyone who is moderately-severe physically dependent on benzodiazepines should consider the method of substituting the benzo with an ~ equivalent dose of phenobarbital / primidone and then tapering the dose of that drug down without feeling withdrawal symptoms nor sedation for about 3-4 weeks...


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Acamprosate, the alcoholic drug, could also be useful in benzo withdrawal. Actually, it's perfect for this because it hits GABA(A) (the target of benzos) and blocks NMDA (possible glutamate excess in withdrawal).


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

In theory it should be good, but it didn't help me in praxis.


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## DMBfan (Aug 29, 2008)

Medline I know phenobarbital is getting more difficult to find in the US. I was wondering if that will happen internationally? I have no plans to taper from valium but I really would like the option of pheno if/when I ever make that decision.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Phenobarbital / Primidone can still be prescribed in many countries internationally and getting them online without a prescription is pretty easy, although I can't name sources because of bourd rules of course.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm wondering if Lyrica can really help with withdrawal. I know it's a GABA analogue, will this interfere with my GABA receptors repairing?

If it does help then I have no idea what the equivalents are compared to the benzos. My doctor experimented with me with lyrica in the past for anxiety and it really didn't help nearly as good as Klonopin, it just seemed to make me dizzy.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Redefine said:


> I'm wondering if Lyrica can really help with withdrawal. I know it's a GABA analogue, will this interfere with my GABA receptors repairing?
> 
> If it does help then I have no idea what the equivalents are compared to the benzos. My doctor experimented with me with lyrica in the past for anxiety and it really didn't help nearly as good as Klonopin, it just seemed to make me dizzy.


Lyrica didn't really help me in withdrawal.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Freesix88 said:


> This is all you need to know.
> Where can I find those comparison charts anyway?
> Maybe I will use klonopin full time and I would like to have some phenobarbital, just in case of..
> You prefer pheno instead of valium because of the long half life right?


Those charts aren't all too useful IMHO especially when it comes to Klonopin. My psychiatrist (an addiction specialist who used & still sometimes uses Pheno) and I come to the conclusion that in real life 1mg Klonopin =~ 10-14 mg Phenobarbital, altough the charts tell it is about 7.5mg.

You didn't get the idea quite right by the way. I don't prefer Pheno over Valium (just) because it has a longer have life, but because it is no benzodiazepine and still can control benzo/alcohol-withdrawal symptoms.  So if one physically dependent on benzodiazepines substitutes the benzo with an ~ equivalent dose of phenobarbital he feels no discomfort (as GABA function is OK because of the barbiturate), but for his body it's kind of a "culd turkey benzo withdrawal", which is much faster than a Valium or Librium taper down over months (as these are still acting at the benzo receptors). So the "benzodiazepine-gaba-receptor-complex" can normalize fast without suffering - that's at least my experience & theory. Of course it's possible that after that procedure some people (maybe 10-15%) still experience protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome - I don't know. Flumazenil might help in this cases.


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## DMBfan (Aug 29, 2008)

Medline, since phenobarbital seems to commonl be sold in 100mg pills how do you go about dosing it below 25mg (quartering it)? If people are taking the equivelant of 1mg of klonopin or less it would be difficult to cut the pill small enought to get the right pheno equivelancy. At what point in the taper do you switch to pheno? And do you just take the pheno for 3-4 weeks and then stop cold turkey or do you taper off of the pheno at the end?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

DMBfan said:


> Medline, since phenobarbital seems to commonl be sold in 100mg pills how do you go about dosing it below 25mg (quartering it)? If people are taking the equivelant of 1mg of klonopin or less it would be difficult to cut the pill small enought to get the right pheno equivelancy. At what point in the taper do you switch to pheno? And do you just take the pheno for 3-4 weeks and then stop cold turkey or do you taper off of the pheno at the end?


There exists liquid Phenobarbital and I also think cutting the pills shouldn't be a very big problem. I don't taper benzos when I have Phenobarbital, I just stop the benzos and always take enough Pheno to not feel withdrawal symptoms nor sedation. I used Pheno for ~ 3-4 weeks, but that was probably longer than necessary as I wasn't a hardcore benzo addict who eat 40 pills daily. I made a fast Pheno taper, but with it's very long half-life this drug is kind of self-tapering. Keep in mind that this is just from my personal experience mixed with some info from my Pdoc. I'm sure there exists professional (older) manuals for benzo withdrawal using phenobarbital on the internet.

In the following thread somebody has made a (inpatient) benzo withdrawal using liquid pheno, I asked for a detox report: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/how-long-does-benzo-withdrawal-last-68571/


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