# Ever hear of this TFL 'true forced loneliness' crap?



## MrMongrel (Oct 21, 2011)

Now normally I wouldn't get annoyed with what I see as a 'cult fringe' group of people enough to talk about them on here, but this is ridiculous, and almost pitiful.

Apparently there is an increasing movement that was brought into play by some guys on youtube...

These guys who started it, who have websites and videos on youtube, call the (apparently growing) movement 'True Forced Loneliness', which I guess is similar to the whole 'involuntarily celibate' thing but this seems even worse.

It's almost like a super-negative-self-pity-fest.

These guys swear up and down that society forces them into being single, not getting laid, being lonely, etc.

They're also very misogynistic and the blame is pointed at women mainly, and the claim is that because of Feminism and Society, women only go for guys with good looks, and that they openly reject guys that aren't considered attractive, immediately.

I've had conversations with these cats, and tried opening them up to the idea of social training but they swear that any sort of self-improvement is BS unless you're freakin Tom Cruise in looks or something similar, or have tons of money.

When I tried to address the fact that women are very empathic and their group has a self-defeating attitude, (And that women can pick up on a bitter, self loathing, woman-bashing 'nice guy',) they got VERY defensive and started making personal attacks, go figure.

So this brings me to my question...

How many guys do you know that aren't really considered 'super hot' or even 'good looking' that have attractive girlfriends/one night stands/whatever?

I myself know quite a few that have done the PUA training and tried improving their lifestyle and have some darn attractive girlfriends.

Looks may play some role in it, BUT I think that a LOT of it is based on confidence as well as comfort in ones skin, to which these 'all knowing' fellas seem to totally disagree.

Ladies, feel free to chime in one this one! Looks vs Confidence and Personality!​


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

I used to think the same way. In some ways I still do. For example I can't believe that looks are a contributing factor. At least not a significant one.

That being said I have been through enough rejection in my life that I can't completely write these guys off as a "cult". I've been rejected both in relationship and friendship reasons HARD. and for some of the most ridiculous reasons at times that the core concept of tfl that some unlucky souls are destined to be alone holds at least some merit and veracity.


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## bobthebuilder (Jun 17, 2009)

Looks are a prerequisite. The more attractive you are, the easier it is. Girls tend to date up, because guys are quick to settle and have less value in the dating world. Confidence and personality are irrelevant when the other person simply isnt interested and wont interact with you.

looks are the most important thing when meeting new people, because people are stupid and assume they know what kind of person you are by your looks, and will be more or less friendly based on that assumption.


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## Ohnoes2191 (Aug 26, 2011)

Looks do play a role, point blank. I used to say they didn't, but after all the crap that's happened to me, looks started to matter. I'd have to say their disagreement is BS. Confidence does matter. If you're confident in yourself, chances are you aren't highly insecure. If you're not insecure, you can most likely lead a healthy normal relationship. That counts a lot in my opinion.

Personality is a HUGE factor. Looks are a plus though. They don't have to be 'Tom Cruise' :blank


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## Colton (Jun 27, 2011)

These TFL people are usually 25-50 year-old guys who have gone through life with little or no female interaction. I understand why they're bitter. Sometimes I feel like blowing my brains out over it, and I'm only 17. Imagine how lonely these guys are. Of course I'm not saying I agree with any of it.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Any average looking guy can get hot babes.

How?

Simple. Make her feel special. For instance, if she thinks many women are pursuing you, she'll feel special by being the one that you _choose_ in the lot. In reality, there may not even be anyone else after you, but feed the illusion as much as you can.

Note: buying her gifts and paying her dinner makes you appear desperate, so it's not the way to go. The confidence stuff is BS to start with in a sense. They don't care if you're confident, they just don't want you to be/look desperate.

I'm pretty sure, say, Owen Wilson, who was suicidal for a while, has zero problems attracting women.


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## bk (May 2, 2004)

Trying to change someones opinion via the internet... I wonder why that failed?


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## MrMongrel (Oct 21, 2011)

Colton said:


> These TFL people are usually 25-50 year-old guys who have gone through life with little or no female interaction. I understand why they're bitter. Sometimes I feel like blowing my brains out over it, and I'm only 17. Imagine how lonely these guys are. Of course I'm not saying I agree with any of it.


But these cats aren't even trying.

Look at Bill. He's a ******* dude who can't spell to save his life and says he understands why a guy would shoot women.

Dwayne is a 450 lb guy who refuses to improve himself, essentially saying that the world owes him everything and he shouldn't have to lift a finger for it.


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## matty (Nov 2, 2009)

Self defeating attitude says it all. 

They have been mentioned on here before and some people believe in it. Why not, life has been tough, and their sa and other problems make it difficult to talk to people let alone women. I always view it as my problem and try to fix what is holding me back. So I dont believe in it. 

I have a couple of really good looking and confident friends, and I can tell you it is the confidence which wins the girls. The looks dont hurt. But I would rather be able to talk confidently with a girl all night, appear funny and entertaining, than to look incredible and have nothing to offer.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

matty said:


> Self defeating attitude says it all.
> 
> They have been mentioned on here before and some people believe in it. Why not, life has been tough, and their sa and other problems make it difficult to talk to people let alone women. I always view it as my problem and try to fix what is holding me back. So I dont believe in it.
> 
> I have a couple of really good looking and confident friends, and I can tell you it is the confidence which wins the girls. The looks dont hurt. But I would rather be able to talk confidently with a girl all night, appear funny and entertaining, than to look incredible and have nothing to offer.


Well said!


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

They creep me out. I can't even watch their videos.


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

Dunno about TFLs, but a quote I heard a long time ago, I thought it was best to reiterate here.

All the confidence in the world means nothing if you're still rejected.

In other words, you can have all the self-esteem in the world, if that person still wants to put you down and has the ability to do so, then they do.


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## Syndacus (Aug 9, 2011)

Well if more men described themselves as TFL, and have a defeatist attitude about women, then that's more women for me and dwindles down the competition. Can't help people who pity themselves to the nth degree and never actively get help but rather let it come to them.


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## Mason (Oct 22, 2011)

As someone who has never been in a relationship I can absolutely understand the position these guys are coming from. There comes a point when you just want to say to heck with it and simply give up on the hope of ever finding a mate. 

On the issue of attractive men being able to find mates, all it takes to refute this idea is to go look at the multitudes of ****** douchebags that are able to land attractive ladies.

Confidence is key, and that I lack.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Looks, social status and charisma(social skills) are what matter. Confidence comes naturally from having these qualities. I bet most of the TFL guys might not even have any of these qualities that's why they keep struggling with women and later become misogynistic. They don't consider changing themselves to be a more attractive person so they forever stay unattractive and keep failing with women. This is further proof that the "be yourself" advice is BS.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

MrMongrel said:


> How many guys do you know that aren't really considered 'super hot' or even 'good looking' that have attractive girlfriends/one night stands/whatever?


One. Myself. I have a girlfriend.

But I was single until age 29.

Make of that what you will.


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## wmw87 (Apr 20, 2011)

TPower said:


> Any average looking guy can get hot babes.
> 
> How?
> 
> ...


But wait a second...

In LucidVision's thread you said to "just be yourself."

So should we "be ourselves" or make a woman feel special by "feeding the illusion" ? :blank


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

MrMongrel said:


> How many guys do you know that aren't really considered 'super hot' or even 'good looking' that have attractive girlfriends/one night stands/whatever?
> 
> ​


0

:blank


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## Dead Leaves (Aug 20, 2011)

I feel sorry for them. They're bitter after a life of rejection and they want someone to blame, but that kind of victim mentality isn't productive. Not only are they giving up, they're skewing their perspective - making them more and more spiteful, and even less attractive.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

wmw87 said:


> But wait a second...
> 
> In LucidVision's thread you said to "just be yourself."
> 
> So should we "be ourselves" or make a woman feel special by "feeding the illusion" ? :blank


Well, I'm not into the _play a game_ stuff. But that's how plain looking guys get smoking hot women. Doesn't mean I act, or want to act this way.

I don't want to get into any dating games, so if I don't ever get a 10/10 because of my attitude, then so be it.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I am a bit bitter, but I don't believe that this stuff is true.

I've seen enough evidence to the contrary to back that up!


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## angus (Dec 18, 2010)

shynesshellasucks said:


> Looks, social status and charisma(social skills) are what matter. Confidence comes naturally from having these qualities. I bet most of the TFL guys might not even have any of these qualities that's why they keep struggling with women and later become misogynistic. They don't consider changing themselves to be a more attractive person so they forever stay unattractive and keep failing with women. This is further proof that the "be yourself" advice is BS.


I think this pretty much sums it up, although from *my own experiances *I think woman are more judgmental than men when seeking a partner.


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## PetePain (Sep 8, 2011)

MrMongrel said:


> When I tried to address the fact that women are very empathic and their group has a self-defeating attitude, (And that women can pick up on a bitter, self loathing, woman-bashing 'nice guy',) they got VERY defensive and started making personal attacks, go figure.


Quite a few women will treat a man that is below their expectations like dirt without giving a damn about his feelings. I think you are being very benign here. Of course there are empathic women out there but rudeness, self-entitlement etc. is quite prevalent among women these days and sensitive guys just have hard time dealing with this phenomenon.


MrMongrel said:


> So this brings me to my question...
> 
> How many guys do you know that aren't really considered 'super hot' or even 'good looking' that have attractive girlfriends/one night stands/whatever?
> 
> ...


Confidence and the right social skills trump looks.


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## River In The Mountain (Jun 6, 2011)

An attractive demeanor can change a face.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Harpuia:1059379200 said:


> Dunno about TFLs, but a quote I heard a long time ago, I thought it was best to reiterate here.
> 
> All the confidence in the world means nothing if you're still rejected.
> 
> In other words, you can have all the self-esteem in the world, if that person still wants to put you down and has the ability to do so, then they do.


The difference being that someone who is confident and secure with themself will take the rejection in stride and move on to the next girl. I have a friend who is moderately good looking but has unrelenting confidence...I've seem him get rejected by one, two or three different girls in one night but that last one will take a liking to him and he will end up taking her home.

It's a numbers game, and the only way to br part of that game is to be able to deal with rejection. How do you do that? Practice. As difficult as it is dealing with rejection at first, if you keep plugging away you will get more used to dealing with it and you WILL eventually succeed. How do you get better at anything in this world? Practice.


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## hmnut (Aug 8, 2011)

rymo said:


> The difference being that someone who is confident and secure with themself will take the rejection in stride and move on to the next girl. I have a friend who is moderately good looking but has unrelenting confidence...I've seem him get rejected by one, two or three different girls in one night but that last one will take a liking to him and he will end up taking her home.
> 
> It's a numbers game, and the only way to br part of that game is to be able to deal with rejection. How do you do that? Practice. As difficult as it is dealing with rejection at first, if you keep plugging away you will get more used to dealing with it and you WILL eventually succeed. How do you get better at anything in this world? Practice.


True Dat!

The problem is so many guys place their self-esteem on their ability to get women. So they say "if I can get a girlfriend then I have value." Thus when a girl rejects them they feel that means they have no value. And since they have no value they lose what little confidence they have.

If your self-esteem is independent of your success with women, then you can approach women and be rejected and just brush it off. You might even end up saying "Man I feel sorry for her, she just passed on a great guy." You go on to the next girl.

Looks help, anyone who says they don't is lying. Money helps, having a nice car and a nice house/apartment, being a rock star or famous actor or athlete all help, but you could be a fat ugly dude living in your mom's basement and have a girlfriend if you are willing to work on your confidence, but you have to be doing FOR YOU, not just to get laid.


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## PLarry (Apr 2, 2011)

I too think feminism is ruining the world but this whole business is nonsense. The problem with TFL arguments is that they objectify women and then get mad when they cannot achieve them. The problem may not be that they can't get women its that they can't get the women that fit into their objectified standards. That is everyone wants a corvette or something of the like, so if you go around looking at women like varying models of vehicle then of course you are going to want to get the one that is trendy. As for people it doesn't work that way.


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## WalkingDisaster (Nov 27, 2010)

TFL and PUA... both seem like bull**** to me. Completely opposite, but bull**** nonetheless. Also they both seem to have an overly simplistic view of women and their needs. I remember a while ago on here there were a couple of guys that were really into the TFL crap, I think they got banned probably. I can completely understand that they'd be bitter after being lonely that long, but I'd put it down to them being generally irritating, or just sheer bad luck. It's not a conspiracy to stop them getting laid or anything.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

I browsed a random clip from TFL on YouTube, it was that fat guy.

I couldn't help but burst out laughing within seconds.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

WalkingDisaster said:


> TFL and PUA... both seem like bull**** to me. Completely opposite, but bull**** nonetheless. Also they both seem to have an overly simplistic view of women and their needs.


Agree 100%.

Both TRL and PUA are rooted deeply in misogyny (though both sides will deny it vehemently). Both fail to acknowledge women as individuals, as well as human beings. Instead they strip us of our humanity and simplify us into stereotypes to fit the needs of their rhetoric.

In PUA, women are nothing more than accessories, or the trophy at the end of a finish line. To them we are all simple minded bimbos, who need to be tricked into relationships/bed/whatever. Since they view us as all the same, they believe that they can write extensive guides regarding how to "get" us. It never seems to occur to them that every woman is different, and they can write all the How-To Guides they want, but that won't make one single shred of a difference when they get out into the real world and interact with real women who don't all fit into the mold the PUA has in their mind.

In TFL, women are once again stripped of our humanity and lumped into a single hive-minded entity. TFL and forced celebacy believers see women as the enemy. They view sex and relationships as a right, rather than a priveldge. They believe that women owe them these things, and that when they are rejected by a woman she is "forcing" loneliness onto them. Basically they don't like being rejected; or specifically, that women can reject them. It never occurs to them that they themselves are the cause of their continual rejection. Rather than take a long, hard look at themselves, and work on improvement that comes from within, they'd rather sit back and blame women as a whole. They often blame feminism as well because they feel threatened by women's empowerment.

There was a pretty prolific poster here who was a TFL believer awhile back. He was banned for spouting his hateful views about women. I remember one time he said that women should have some of our rights taken away....I guess he thought that would help him get laid or something, I don't even know. It was pretty messed up. I suppose that ties in with the TFL belief that they are entitled to a relationship. They think that if they can't get a relationship the good old fashioned way (i.e. meeting someone with common interests and a mutual attraction) then they should be able to force a woman to date them. Feminism supports a woman's right to choose her own destiny, including whom she becomes romantically involved with, so of course they take issue with that.


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## wmw87 (Apr 20, 2011)

au Lait said:


> Both fail to acknowledge women as individuals, as well as human beings. Instead they strip us of our humanity and simplify us into stereotypes to fit the needs of their rhetoric.


I've met many people but few human beings.


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## Sahariel (Oct 28, 2011)

I know tons of guys that look like ****, can't take care of them selves, or are complete deadbeats that have no problem getting girls. Me on the other hand, I'm not bad looking, I take care of myself, well educated and well off. Still, I can't get a girlfriend, hell, I've never even been on a single date. You can't blame society for it, I know this. It's just all in my head.


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## offbyone (May 5, 2010)

PLarry said:


> I too think feminism is ruining the world but this whole business is nonsense.


Why do you think this? Do you think feminism is just the "feminazi" stereotype and generalize that to all women/feminists? I'm truly curious why someone would feel this way.

Out of the things currently destroying society I just don't see feminism ranking up there at all and only the rare radical misandrist has actual toxic or damaging views. Casual misogyny is just way more common too.


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## PLarry (Apr 2, 2011)

offbyone said:


> Why do you think this? Do you think feminism is just the "feminazi" stereotype and generalize that to all women/feminists? I'm truly curious why someone would feel this way.
> 
> Out of the things currently destroying society I just don't see feminism ranking up there at all and only the rare radical misandrist has actual toxic or damaging views. Casual misogyny is just way more common too.


Oh I was just messin. But I'm sure I could give you a few good reasons if you were really looking for an argument.


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

I don't like that the TFL movement is 99.99999% made of men who are just pissed off at their lack of being able to socialize or have a relationship.

However, it does seem weird that there are some people who seem like they are just destined to be lonely. I've seen guys (myself included in that, but I know a lot of people will think of me otherwise) who are normally decent, okay guys who just have the absolute most HORRIBLE luck in friendships and relationships and for some reason are usually alone. I consider that a really strange phenomenon.


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## wmw87 (Apr 20, 2011)

Harpuia said:


> I don't like that the TFL movement is 99.99999% made of men who are just pissed off at their lack of being able to socialize or have a relationship.
> 
> However, it does seem weird that there are some people who seem like they are just destined to be lonely. I've seen guys (myself included in that, but I know a lot of people will think of me otherwise) who are normally decent, okay guys who just have the absolute most HORRIBLE luck in friendships and relationships and for some reason are usually alone. I consider that a really strange phenomenon.


'no good deed goes unpunished'


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

I have sympathy for anyone who is lonely or feels left out socially. I even feel some sympathy for people who become bitter about their plight. Those people are often doing some self defeating things to make their problems worse, but aren't most of us self defeating in some ways? 

What makes no sense is people blaming the objects of their desire for not desiring them back. I mean, an occasional complaint about a specific person who rejected you is pretty understandable. Blaming an entire sex, though, is nuts. When the choice is to examine what you're doing wrong or to blame half the world's population for your plight, while it's fun to do the latter in a private moment or maybe to a close friend, it's futile. And the bizarre logic that calls this "forced" or hints at a conspiracy is scary.

In my experience, this phenomenon looks very similar whether a man or a woman engages in it, but it's more prevalent for men to get into this twisted mindset. I suspect this is due to a greater # of men feeling entitled to a relationship or sex, but as I said, when women feel this kind of entitlement it's just as nauseating. Men with the TFL crap or the nice guy/bad boy stuff are no better or worse than women spouting the "all men want barbies" nonsense.

Does anyone else wonder if much of the issue has something to do with people failing to adjust to the reality of who is available to them? People tend to date and marry people about as good looking as they are. I wonder if some people are just struggling to accept their likely options, and then limiting their options further with a crap attitude. It's sad, actually.


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## Harpuia (Apr 10, 2010)

Atticus said:


> I have sympathy for anyone who is lonely or feels left out socially. I even feel some sympathy for people who become bitter about their plight. Those people are often doing some self defeating things to make their problems worse, but aren't most of us self defeating in some ways?


I know I am. I recently found out I have some signs of Borderline Personality Disorder, and I've been trying to see things through a different light ever since to not be in a self-defeating mode.

I think the reason it's harder for me now? Because my brain is thinking "We've tried self-esteem bull**** before, and not only did we get knocked down for it, but we wound up in a WORSE SITUATION THEN WHEN WE STARTED!" Basically, I didn't go back to square one. I went to square minus one. So my brain is feeling kind of cautious to do the DBT to try to instill self-confidence into my skinny arse.



> What makes no sense is people blaming the objects of their desire for not desiring them back. I mean, an occasional complaint about a specific person who rejected you is pretty understandable. Blaming an entire sex, though, is nuts. When the choice is to examine what you're doing wrong or to blame half the world's population for your plight, while it's fun to do the latter in a private moment or maybe to a close friend, it's futile. And the bizarre logic that calls this "forced" or hints at a conspiracy is scary.


True.



> In my experience, this phenomenon looks very similar whether a man or a woman engages in it, but it's more prevalent for men to get into this twisted mindset. I suspect this is due to a greater # of men feeling entitled to a relationship or sex, but as I said, when women feel this kind of entitlement it's just as nauseating. Men with the TFL crap or the nice guy/bad boy stuff are no better or worse than women spouting the "all men want barbies" nonsense.


Partially that. Partially because more conventional demands are required for a man to be desirable (job, provider, etc.) But that stuff is natural.



> Does anyone else wonder if much of the issue has something to do with people failing to adjust to the reality of who is available to them? People tend to date and marry people about as good looking as they are. I wonder if some people are just struggling to accept their likely options, and then limiting their options further with a crap attitude. It's sad, actually.


Not entirely true. I am dating someone right now who is really attractive and I'm an ogre. Lol.

I don't support the movement at all though. I think they're about as dumb as a box of rocks. It must take some drugs to make up a conspiracy theory with the CIA, the New World Order, and/or the Illuminati to explain why you are lonely. And quite honestly, reading this thread, I could use some of those drugs right now.

But I think you hit the nail best on the head. It's hard not to feel for people who have been consistently beat down social-wise.


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