# Religiously Schizophrenic



## blc1 (Jan 8, 2009)

Do you have violents shifts from belief in God to disbelief to belief? Sometimes I sincerely wish I could avoid the question altogether.


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## blc1 (Jan 8, 2009)

BostonB said:


> Well thats blasphemy, so you should just stick to atheism. Dont fight the feeling


I can't be an atheist.


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## blc1 (Jan 8, 2009)

BostonB said:


> Then you've already avoided the question...


No. I can consider and indulge the possibility, but I can't commit.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

blc1 said:


> I can't be an atheist.


You need to look within first in order to know _where_ to seek.

Ask yourself things like:


 Why do I believe in deity?


 Do I want to have a "relationship" with one and why?


 What do I like/dislike about organized religion?

Then do your homework -- research different religions and philosophies. Who knows? Maybe you'll just end up with your own, self-made spirituality, which is fine. Whatever helps you connect with yourself... and, if you choose to believe, the Divine.

For starters, you should take the test in this thread. Check out the links, too, they give a nice summary of many religions.

Best of luck on your journey.


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## blc1 (Jan 8, 2009)

Neptunus said:


> You need to look within first in order to know _where_ to seek.
> 
> Ask yourself things like:
> 
> ...


Thank you Neptunus. Presently I believe in God but can't understand God in any kind of systematic way. I will make use of that thread.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

^ You're welcome!


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

BostonB said:


> I definitely see it all as great philosophy, in most cases. I just cant take it any further, and I hate what all religions do to society.


I am not a fan of organized religion myself. The existence of god(s), on the other hand, I have no problem with.

But to each their own.


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## blc1 (Jan 8, 2009)

BostonB said:


> No, I know what you'e saying. For me I got to a point with agnosticism where it didnt make sense anymore. I certainly wasn't willing to do anything "just in case" It was real, and that's what it started to feel like. Like Ned Flanders stayed kosher...just in case.
> 
> I think agnosticism is closer to atheism than it is to a belief. People seem to think it's right in the middle. The push for me was realizing that I was battling myself over something that would damn me for doubting it. That combined with the contradictory things I was taught was enough to tell me it wasnt real


Ned Flanders. lol. I respect that you made a honest choice.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

blc1 said:


> Do have violents shifts from belief in God to disbelief to belief? Sometimes I sincerely wish I could avoid the question altogether.


It happens....to all believers. It can be over individual topics, even.

This is something you will have to workout.
This particular issue is NOT blasphemy, but a questioning of the faith - the belief in things unseen.


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## thatdudegrim (Apr 1, 2011)

blc1 said:


> Do have violents shifts from belief in God to disbelief to belief? Sometimes I sincerely wish I could avoid the question altogether.


I don't shift like that--"violently". I do find myself questing whether Science is right because I'm an addict to news and intellectual forums and this is in my face all day long.

Let me ask you two things


When you think to yourself? Do you ever speak to God or is it just observance by yourself? I'm not asking whether God speaks back.
How will answering this change your life. If I could prove to you that there is no God (and I believe there is!), what changes for your life. Do you change your conduct as a person?
Let me talk about the 10 commandments. About half of these are about your loyalty to God and your faith as his creation. The rest are about conduct as a person. Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, or anything--these are how you should be conducting yourself? Lying? It's fundamentally better to tell the truth. Stealing? If it wasn't yours, you've no right to it. Adultery? Don't get me started--part of who I am, I understand the fragility some people endure. Striking at that as only breaking someone's love can, or helping someone else to do it? It's an immoral thing.

As for the rest of the Bible, I really need to learn to speak the ancient forms of the languages used to write it. I know the Bible, The New Testament especially sends the message of a Loving God but I know the versions I've read and can understand myself are translated by men who may have erred or judged a translation wrong or for political reasons may have changed the text (KJV, NIV). I no longer crush myself with guilts of my slightly off-course sexual orientation (I won't deny that I occasionally do) because my Father loved me when he created me and he loves me now and knows my weaknesses. He knows the trials I've endured and knows what is to come.

In researching my reply to you, I came across this link, a read I really really enjoyed -- I hope you might as well. 
http://www.achievebalance.com/spirit/cnc/third.htm.

God Bless you Sister.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

****Thread Advisory****
DO not belittle others, especially in these areas.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

thatdudegrim said:


> I don't shift like that--"violently". I do find myself questing whether Science is right because I'm an addict to news and intellectual forums and this is in my face all day long.
> 
> Let me ask you two things
> 
> ...


He also wants what is best for us and will correct us - even show us where to go to help us correct it.
He does not want us to sin, but we are a fallen creature.


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## blc1 (Jan 8, 2009)

BostonB said:


> ^^^
> Well, I struggled with it for years, so I do know where you're coming from. I went to Catholic school from kindergarten to grade 11, and I was even an alter boy and worked at a rectory. I definitely had a hard time with it for years


It seems we both have quite religious backgrounds. I feel the figure of Christ will always haunt me, which is what makes permanent atheism impossible.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

Contributing a lot to this thread, BostonB. :no


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

blc1 said:


> It seems we both have quite religious backgrounds. I feel the figure of Christ will always haunt me, which is what makes permanent atheism impossible.


Why? Jesus does not haunt people. It sounds like a guilt trip of some kind otherwise.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

BostonB said:


> Jesus Christ!


:?


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## blc1 (Jan 8, 2009)

thatdudegrim said:


> I don't shift like that--"violently". I do find myself questing whether Science is right because I'm an addict to news and intellectual forums and this is in my face all day long.
> 
> Let me ask you two things
> 
> ...


Thank you brother! For your advice and your link, and for everyone's replies. I was mostly interested to know if there were people who don't find it within their ability to commit spiritually.


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## Ramondo (Feb 16, 2011)

millenniumman75 said:


> Why? Jesus does not haunt people. It sounds like a guilt trip of some kind otherwise.


I think, speaking semantically correctly, if Jesus is God, and God also comprises the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit suffuses everything, and Jesus is in everyone's hearts, then Jesus certainly does haunt people (possess them as a ghost).
But I don't think that's what is meant. Being haunted by the "figure of Jesus" is being terrorised by the concept of a judging God. I was also brought up to believe that there is an all-loving God (Jesus et al) who, if you make one mistake, by God, you'll be fritters for eternity. This is a terrible paradox for some people to cope with. But once you've twigged onto the realisation that this concept is impossible, it's easier to move past it in one way or another. The way I chose was to recognise the man-made nature of the whole system. Other people simply find it easier to remain religious, but discard aspects, such as Hell, that they are uncomfortable with. 
But I would - and have - stake any immortal soul that I might have on the concept of an all-loving, all-punishing God being a logical - and spiritual - contradiction, and therefore false.

PS: Speaking of semantics, "schizophrenic" doesn't mean being split between two ideas.


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## thatdudegrim (Apr 1, 2011)

I've never found the written quote so I know I'm getting a key word off somehow but I've heard him say it on tape.

A much beloved author, Kurt Vonnegut said of his first, and deceased, wife that while he could never embrace religion though he had tried, she had and he was always happy for her. He was happy as she died because she had a peace that carried her away and he hoped, for her sake, she was right--even though he couldn't believe it.

That's was pretty moving.


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## justpassinby (Oct 21, 2008)

Here is a verse I thought of when I read your post: James 8:4 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

I have times like this too, so I pray, recommit, read verse, ask God, and look within myself and see what is separating me from God. If there is something separating me, I confess it. I have a tendency to think badly about people in my mind. In fact, it is like a runaway train, thinking of all the people who have hurt me and harboring those negative feelings and thoughts. According to God, hating someone in your heart is like murdering them. I cannot have fellowship with God while having these thoughts. So I confess them and God takes care of them. So, thats what I suggest, search your heart, confess so God can take it from you, read verse, pray, and ask Him to show you. Many miraculous things can happen, between you and God, and you'll know it.


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## Mc Borg (Jan 4, 2008)

BostonB said:


> *I think agnosticism is closer to atheism than it is to a belief.* People seem to think it's right in the middle. The push for me was realizing that I was battling myself over something that would damn me for doubting it. That combined with the contradictory things I was taught was enough to tell me it wasnt real


Atheism _is _a belief:



> It is often said by atheists that atheism is not a positive position at all - a belief or worldview - but merely a disbelief in theism, a refusal to accept what the theist believes, and as such, there is no belief or position for there to be evidence _for_. Evidence is not needed for 'non-positions'. While the word 'atheism' has been used in something like this sense (see for example Antony Flew's article 'The Presumption of Atheism'), it is a highly non-standard use. So understood, atheism would include agnosticism, since agnostics are also not theists. However, on the common understanding of atheism - no divine reality of any kind exists - atheism and agnosticism are mutually exclusive. Some insist that this non-standard sense of 'atheism' is the only possible sense, because _a-theism_ means _without theism_. But if _that_ were a good argument, the Space Shuttle would be an automobile, since it moves on its own (_mobile_=move, _auto_=by itself). Ditto for dogs and cats.
> Yet none of that really matters, for even the non-standard sense of 'atheism' does nothing to neutralize evidentialism's demand for evidence. As we saw, evidentialism applies to _all_ 'doxastic' attitudes toward a proposition P: believing P, believing not-P, suspending judgment about P, etc. Therefore evidentialism says, with respect to the proposition _God exists_, that any attitude toward it will be rational or justified if and only if it fits one's evidence. Now it is true that if one had no position whatever regarding the proposition _God exists_ (perhaps because one has never entertained the thought), no evidence would be required for that non-position. *But the New Atheists all believe that (probably) no God or other divine reality exists. And that belief must be evidence-based if it is to be rationally held, according to evidentialism.* So insisting that atheism isn't a belief doesn't help.
> In what follows I will use 'atheism' in its standard sense.


Source

I think agnosticism is closer to Pyrrhonian skepticism than it is to either theism or atheism. It's about being able to admit that you don't know for certain either way. It's about remaining in a state of inquiry in hopes of ultimately finding truth (Although, I'm sure some agnostics don't care either way). It's about not wanting to be caught carrying an erroneous belief. It's about being intellectually honest with yourself. I'm a theist, but I have a lot of respect for agnostics. Atheists on the other hand, get very little respect from me. =P The same can be said about a good chunk of theists.


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## MojoCrunch (Mar 25, 2011)

blc1 said:


> Do you have violents shifts from belief in God to disbelief to belief? Sometimes I sincerely wish I could avoid the question altogether.


All the time. It's confusing.

I don't care about organized religion. But the existence of God is something else. Sometimes you just need something to believe in. My belief is certainly not going to be placed in the hands of human beings.


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## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

Neptunus said:


> Contributing a lot to this thread, BostonB. :no


I agree, its pretty rude to down others faith when no one here pokes fun at atheism or any other religion for that matter
its only ever christianity that is mocked and made fun of


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## rpmth (Jan 23, 2011)

blc1 said:


> Thank you Neptunus. Presently I believe in God but can't understand God in any kind of systematic way. I will make use of that thread.


I think that part of the problem is that you think you NEED to fully understand a certain thing in a certain way in order to BELIEVE in it. That is not true. Do you have to understand everything about how another person thinks in and out in order to trust that person?

Already if you believe in God you have committed yourself to a belief in a Being that, by definition, you are not able to contain yourself, in a realm access to which requires more than your own willpower.

That's the best answer I can give, speaking purely in the abstract...


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

I waffle between dogmatic, extremely conservative Catholicism and humanistic Bahai'i. So I just call myself a humanistic Catholic.


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## Mona1234 (Dec 9, 2010)

Its not about religion its about having a relationship with Christ, having faith in God will keep you from disbelief, like remembering all the good things he has done for you and the bad situations he has got you out of and knowing he is with you no matter what.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

BostonB said:


> Jesus Christ!


You come across as an insecure atheist :lol

What are you doing in this forum anyway?


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Ok I'm just wondering what you're doing in here as you have your own forum. I only quoted randomly, I'm addressing the way you're carrying on in this thread. Rather immature. You remind me of when I was younger, how I used to go on youtube and bash homosexuals. Nowadays I leave alone what doesn't concern me.

You should do the same


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Hmm I figured you'd make that connection. Nowhere did I refer to your posts as 'bashing'.

This thread isn't 'fresh' and a good amount has already been contributed. This is simply a matter of questioning your faith out of lack of understanding. Happens to everyone.

This is as far as it will go. I am not up for a debate.


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## skygazer (Dec 26, 2010)

i don't know either, no one does, but i hope there's a god


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## merrick (Jun 12, 2011)

blc1 said:


> No. I can consider and indulge the possibility, but I can't commit.


maybe you are an agnostic...you just dont know. i sure as hell dont and anybody who thinks they do KNOW must be pretty confident in there understanding of life and existance.

i dont think there is any way there can be a God but im not buyin any religions so far.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

No, never on the existence of whether a good God exists but real problems about the specifics beliefs.


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## scriabin221 (Nov 16, 2008)

Just keep exploring and eventually you'll find what you're comfortable with. I explored a bunch of religions. I actually went to a Jewish Temple for a year a while ago. Then I decided it wasn't for me. I couldn't actually believe in it. Then I was into Buddhism, but it didn't work for me either. Now I've simply come to the conclusion that I like reading about Buddhism, I'm interested in the traditions of Judaism, but I can't actually participate. I don't need a religion.


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## moke64916 (May 31, 2011)

What you are experiencing is the opposites. To Believe is not' nor 'is not.' It just is. To disbelieve the belief about belief is different. You might "believe" but have you ever "experienced"? You will find the answers to all of your questions within. Try to feel the love that we all have within. Feel your inner energy. You will notice it feels good. Joy, peace, love, bliss. Then you will have "Experience" not just belief. For me a spiritual awakening happened when I became ever more present in the moment. My sense of self dissolved. I felt like I was here, but not here. It felt weird. Then I felt the true love, peace, joy, bliss from my inner self. That is who I am.


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## ThinkingInterrupted (Jun 30, 2011)

Blc1 Christ only haunts the minds of those who are in themselves disobedient to their own heart. If you are refusing to submit to what your heart is telling you is true, then yes you will be haunted by the side of Christ that condemns. In fact Christ condemns all who are in the darkness of their sins, and I should know, because I have hid in the darkness for many years. The Bible tells us that if we are in the light just as God is in the light then we have communication with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin.

The issue with our picture of Christ being a tormenting or haunting figure has everything to do with our own perceptions. If we perceive that Christ is a hard man who does not not sow what he reaps then naturally we are going to see him as a condemner instead of a savior. 

The condition is walking in the light which many of us have a hard time doing. Instead of saying that the social anxiety comes from the sin and darkness we are in, we often believe that we are not in the light because of our mental disabilities!

The truth is, if we walk in the light as God is in the light, and is light in Himself, then we will have communication (fellowship) with one another (something a socially anxious person does not experience), and the blood of Christ will justify us of our sins so that we are no longer living in a weary and guilty mind. 

Our perceptions can paint Christ out to be evil instead of good. We can convince ourselves that Christ = Psychosis instead of Christ = Freedom and Everlasting Life. 

Christ will not condemn you for being in the dark, He will save you from it. He has no intentions of leaving you in misery all the days of your life. He only requires that your heart is willing enough to step into the light. 

Communication and freedom in Christ comes about when we finally see that it is the darkness that's keeping us in our sins, in our anxieties, in our phobias, in our paranoia, etc.

Continuing in the faith is hard, it is for every Christian on this planet, but that is why it is called the fight of faith. The faith is only kept if it's kept "until the end"... but remember that nothing in the present or to come ahead of us will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ. When our faith fails to blaze, His faith remains strong, and His intercession for us continually reaches the throne of God, and is pleasing to the Father always. 

His faith does not cease with ours... but as long as Christ is alive in your heart, even if it does feel like a haunting, then Christ remains with you, as He will always finish the work He begins in us. 

I am in the same situation you are in... I find it very difficult to see Christ for who He really is sometimes. I know that I can't become an atheist or an agnostic because my heart truly knows that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God. 

The world will call you crazy, but the world is also going to perish, is it not? Will not all the people who say you are crazy perish one day? But the Angels in Heaven who are immortal, eternal in nature, they watch over you, and minister to you, because your salvation is assured, and they do not think you are crazy for believing in the Creator and Savior, God.

We need to keep the faith no matter what our mind tells us. God has always been about the heart more than the intellect. The intellect will question God's authority, but the heart will never do such, that is, if it beats for Him.

The world is lost in their sins, and they will do whatever they can to drag you down with them. They will be like the 5 foolish virgins that tried to steal the oil from the wise... not so they could enter into eternal life, but so that they could take the eternal life from the wise. The world wants our oil, and it will stop at nothing to get it. We need to say to the foolish... "Go and buy in the market for yourselves, lest their not be enough oil for both you and me."


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

Mc Borg said:


> Atheism _is _a belief:


I'm an atheist in that I don't believe in a particular God (I also find the idea of a God extremely unlikely, to say the least). *So that would not constitute a belief*. I mean is not believing in Zeus a belief? What about not believing in Krantock the God I just invented in this sentence?


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

It's called testing of your faith. Stand firm


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

Godless1 said:


> I'm an atheist in that I don't believe in a particular God (I also find the idea of a God extremely unlikely, to say the least). *So that would not constitute a belief*. I mean is not believing in Zeus a belief? What about not believing in Krantock the God I just invented in this sentence?


How can you say he doesn't exist when I just talked to him in the morning? Outward appearances are deceiving, you'd be surprised what is man-made and what is not.

We can believe in pink elephants, too. But we don't experience them through the spiritual journey we take. We experience oneness, connectedness, a voice that cries out to us and gives us what we ask for. That's experience not a belief imposed on us. Take it or leave it.

I think people don't want to be accountable for their actions in the end. To be atheist is to be selfish, to be enveloped by the ego. The self doesn't even exist. You and I are the same.

A clock needs a clockmaker. The debate can go on forever but I just couldn't help myself.


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

SolaceChaser said:


> I think people don't want to be accountable for their actions in the end. To be atheist is to be selfish, to be enveloped by the ego. The self doesn't even exist. You and I are the same.


 :shock Ruh-roh!


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

SolaceChaser said:


> > How can you say he doesn't exist when I just talked to him in the morning? Outward appearances are deceiving, you'd be surprised what is man-made and what is not.
> 
> 
> I don't know who you think you talked to this morning, but I'm guessing you were talking to yourself. I disagree, it's very easy to tell what is man-made and what isn't. For example, any story written by man is man-made.
> ...


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

New age nonsense... Very eloquently written. Very logical for an atheist I might add... Check out wave-particle duality and entanglement concepts.

God is pure creation, he is infinite possibility (which quantum physics is now discovering, without an observer that's all there is). He is not some physical, mechanical, material thing. We are, hence we have a maker.

Why am I surprised that you don't know the point I am making. I feel sorry that you've never experienced "oneness," but I have a feeling you will one day or moment I should say. I am not a cult leader, I am a follower. And I'm grateful you're here to test me.


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

SolaceChaser said:


> New age nonsense... Very eloquently written. Very logical for an atheist I might add... Check out wave-particle duality and entanglement concepts.
> 
> God is pure creation, he is infinite possibility (which quantum physics is now discovering, without an observer that's all there is). He is not some physical, mechanical, material thing. We are, hence we have a maker.
> 
> Why am I surprised that you don't know the point I am making. I feel sorry that you've never experienced "oneness," but I have a feeling you will one day or moment I should say. I am not a cult leader, *I am a follower*. And I'm grateful you're here to test me.


Epic.

I'm familiar with wave-particle duality and it has absolutely, positively, *NOTHING* to do with God. From what I have read, and understood, the origin of the universe was a quantum event, and thus has no definite history. Instead, it started off in an infinite number of ways and led to an infinite number of parallel universes.

For the life of me, I can't reason what quantum physics has to do with God and "oneness". It really bugs me when people *******ize legitimate science by adding their own religious rhetoric to it. You have the right to believe whatever you want, just leave science out of it.

I highly suggest you read "The Grand Design" by Stephen Hawking, as it pretty much lays out why there is no need for a God in this system, and he is much more eloquent than I could ever hope to be.


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

Godless1 said:


> Epic.


Look closer. A paradigm shift is taking place. While mainstream science remains materialist, a substantial number of scientists are supporting and developing a paradigm based on the primacy of consciousness. Since everything at the quantum level is unpredictable, based on infinite possibilities it should make you think. Thinking... hmm... Something that's not material, yet infinitely possible. Not yet *created*.

There needs to be an observer for a wave to collapse into a particle. Is this not true? If a tree falls down in a forest and no one is there to witness it, did it happen? No. Everything is based on resonance. On a conscious resonance.

If I looked like Stephen Hawking I wouldn't believe in God either. What is that thing anyway? Idolize that creature.

God IS the system. Doesn't matter what name you give it. Nature, system, physics, law. That's God. Rules you have to follow. Rules you are a slave to. If you think you're not then you're one arrogant bast.ard (one of my favorite beers :yes)

I'll still read that retard's book, I suggest you check out "The Quantum Activist." Watch it with an open mind, it's quite interesting.

I used to be atheist too, but thinking we can't bridge the gap between science and spirituality is closed-minded. Where would we be now if everyone was as closed minded... JESUS CHRIST


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

SolaceChaser said:


> > Look closer. A paradigm shift is taking place. While mainstream science remains materialist, a substantial number of scientists are supporting and developing a paradigm based on the primacy of consciousness.Since everything at the quantum level is unpredictable, based on infinite possibilities it should make you think. Thinking... hmm... Something that's not material, yet infinitely possible. Not yet created.
> 
> 
> But you're not thinking. You're jumping to unsubstantiated pseudo-science conclusions, because they sound neat. There is a very good reason that mainstream scientists are materialist, because that is what all the evidence supports.
> ...


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

blc1 said:


> Do you have violents shifts from belief in God to disbelief to belief? Sometimes I sincerely wish I could avoid the question altogether.


I had those back and forths when I was a devout Catholic. I eventually came to believe that highly polarizing assertions of right and wrong are detrimental to what I view as God's will (if there is a god, which I don't claim to know or not because I can't prove it one way or the other) of a peaceful, harmonius existence with one another.

We have to create a culture which produces healthy minds. It can take on any form so long as the algorithms of stimulus produce the healthy, peaceably integrated minds necessary for our species' continued survival. Obviously if 2 or more cultures are corrupted with ego or irrationality (i.e: we are the 'chosen' ones.. or.. my unprovable belief is more true than your unprovable belief) then war is inevitable when they conflict over resources. Conflicting dogmas pose a serious danger and IMO its time people started getting real about the situation: thousands of religions existing in the world with fundamentally conflicting philosophies, most claiming moral and divine superiority... thats an obvious recipe for disaster.

That said, its not like there is any alternative (to religion) healthy culture to be found anywhere in the USA that I'm aware of. Pop culture is deeply, deeply, self destructive. Exposing yourself to it is like putting your subconscious in a blender; you're inevitably going to come out f'ed up. Currently I find my best guide to be my own free will, instincts, curiosity, experiences and well documented/credible research. Good luck.


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## Slogger (Dec 14, 2010)

SolaceChaser said:


> ... I suggest you check out "The Quantum Activist." Watch it with an open mind, it's quite interesting.


A good suggestion! Amit Goswami hits the target with his explanations of non-locality. We experience non-locality as a larger state of mind that is often described as a mystical or spiritual experience. It is available to us through meditation and other means, and occurs spontaneously in people from time to time.


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

Slogger said:


> A good suggestion! Amit Goswami hits the target with his explanations of non-locality. We experience non-locality as a larger state of mind that is often described as a mystical or spiritual experience. It is available to us through meditation and other means, and occurs spontaneously in people from time to time.


Except for the pesky little fact that there is absolutely no scientific evidence for a connection between non-locality and consciousness. This is all merely wild speculation about phenomena we do not fully understand.


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## Slogger (Dec 14, 2010)

Godless1 said:


> Except for the pesky little fact that there is absolutely no scientific evidence for a connection between non-locality and consciousness. This is all merely wild speculation about phenomena we do not fully understand.


I always thought that, too. Have you tried it for yourself, my friend?

Classical science is fascinating, but dualistic. It studies by dividing and finding causes and effects, which are ultimately not part of non-locality. Scientific explanation cannot reach everywhere because nothing has an abiding essence that is separate from everything else.

Maybe someday science will find clear-cut evidence for the connection between non-locality and consciousness, but even then, knowing such facts is entirely different from experiencing. The human experience goes beyond scientific explanation.


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

Hey, I have no problem with, nor do I deny, any experiences you may have had. I understand that humans are capable of deeply profound, transcendent experiences. That's great. But, why in the holy hell would you feel the need to explain it, or connect it an any way, with some unproven pseudo science. 

If it is true that the human experience goes beyond scientific explanation (I'm not so sure it does), then shouldn't you just accept that you have no explanation for it.

This is no different from any other religious explanation of unexplainable events. Honestly, at one point the thought of explaining how the Sun rose and set every day would have seemed impossible. Hence, the ancient Egyptians believed the God Ra carried it across the sky in a canoe everyday. 

If you can't explain something, either accept that, or try to figure it out scientifically. Please don't just accept some nonsense for the sake of it.


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## Slogger (Dec 14, 2010)

Godless1 said:


> But, why in the holy hell would you feel the need to explain it, or connect it an any way, with some unproven pseudo science.
> 
> If it is true that the human experience goes beyond scientific explanation (I'm not so sure it does), then shouldn't you just accept that you have no explanation for it.


You're absolutely right. Not only are the attempts to analyze, explain, and use the results of such experiences ultimately futile, but they can kill the buzz and impede progress as well. :yes

I agree that we need to find out for ourselves, not just accept what others say, even scientists.

You said, there is "no scientific evidence for a connection between non-locality and consciousness." Can't we consider the body to be a scientific instrument and experiences such as samadhi to be evidence? Perhaps we can't yet measure such things with man-made scientific instruments, but we can measure them with the universe-made instrument known as the human body. People who compare notes on such things get the same results, and the results show for example that non-locality is an aspect of the force that creates the universe. Body-knowledge and scientific knowledge ultimately support each other, but knowing the scientific facts is no substitute for experience. See for yourself.

Oh, but look at us debating in the Spiritual section. Hope we don't get shut down.


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## blc1 (Jan 8, 2009)

KurtG85 said:


> I had those back and forths when I was a devout Catholic. I eventually came to believe that highly polarizing assertions of right and wrong are detrimental to what I view as God's will (if there is a god, which I don't claim to know or not because I can't prove it one way or the other) of a peaceful, harmonius existence with one another.
> 
> We have to create a culture which produces healthy minds. It can take on any form so long as the algorithms of stimulus produce the healthy, peaceably integrated minds necessary for our species' continued survival. Obviously if 2 or more cultures are corrupted with ego or irrationality (i.e: we are the 'chosen' ones.. or.. my unprovable belief is more true than your unprovable belief) then war is inevitable when they conflict over resources. Conflicting dogmas pose a serious danger and IMO its time people started getting real about the situation: thousands of religions existing in the world with fundamentally conflicting philosophies, most claiming moral and divine superiority... thats an obvious recipe for disaster.
> 
> That said, its not like there is any alternative (to religion) healthy culture to be found anywhere in the USA that I'm aware of. Pop culture is deeply, deeply, self destructive. Exposing yourself to it is like putting your subconscious in a blender; you're inevitably going to come out f'ed up. Currently I find my best guide to be my own free will, instincts, curiosity, experiences and well documented/credible research. Good luck.


Thank you. This sums up my feelings exactly. Searching for ultimate truth about the meaning of life is futile and can even turn the mind morbid. I now steer away from absolutes. Better to reconcile yourself to the insolubility of some questions and seek healthy mindedness.


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

You say Tomato, I say Tomato. It is futile to argue this, it's never been settled and never will.

I can't write to you what oneness feels like, I can only point to it. If you are a theist, brilliant; if you are atheist, awesome. Practice meditation for an extended period of time, and I promise that if you can get over the self, you will experience an ocean of bliss even if it's for a glimpse. This is the special thing about my existence. Our existence and it's everywhere.

There is no such thing as perfection here, but with my faith I can account for my downfalls and I can build myself up to a golden standard. I don't find pleasure in mere instant gratification, but in my path. I have overcome social anxiety this way and I will overcome the world one day. With men, this is futile.

At the end of the day, I choose to believe in God because I get holidays. You get April Fools.


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

Oh, lol. It still says Buddhist. That was my path. I went from atheist, began to have mystical experiences sparked by *meditation*. I would meditate 2 hours a day to say the least. Many synchronizations would occur, yet something wasn't quite right. So you are right we all have different paths, we all have different origins.

One day I was meditating and I couldn't go on anymore, a voice cried out to me... Not a voice like a sound, but more of an intuition. He told me to give up that passive way because it was not my way. I understand that. Everyone has their way, my destiny is Christianity because I come from the first Christian nation and it has held my people together, even through GENOCIDE!

Guess what happened to me after my rebirth... I lost the concept of being socially anxious. Now I had many revelations, but for that one alone I will sacrifice my life for Christ.

*PSALM 14:1 - To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
*

Where does the atheist's morals come from? From himself? Is he perfect? Does he have a guide? Or is it just experience?

I really don't want to go on arguing so I will stop.

Just a messenger, don't kill me. This is my way.


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

Slogger said:


> > You're absolutely right.
> 
> 
> Well there's something you don't hear on the internet everyday.
> ...


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## Slogger (Dec 14, 2010)

Godless1 said:


> Is the body an instrument? Sure. Is it a scientific instrument? No. The "evidence" obtained by the body isn't tested or verified. It is totally subjective in nature.


But has scientific discovery ended? When it has, please let me know and we can see if it's been able to verify this body-knowledge or not. If not, then your argument stands.



Godless1 said:


> While subjective experiences can be immensely powerful, they are inherently biased; and therefore, can often be misleading.


True, that's the definition of subjective --inherently biased; but people who have explored these matters of the mind deeply say it's not about subjective experience. Neither subjective nor objective nor neither nor both. That touches on non-locality again, among other things.

And it's interesting how so many people throughout history say the same thing. But you can't take their word for it, you have to see for yourself. You can wait for the green light from science first, or you can dive in right now. The water's fine, really!


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

SolaceChaser said:


> Oh, lol. It still says Buddhist. That was my path. I went from atheist, began to have mystical experiences sparked by *meditation*. I would meditate 2 hours a day to say the least. Many synchronizations would occur, yet something wasn't quite right. So you are right we all have different paths, we all have different origins.
> 
> One day I was meditating and I couldn't go on anymore, a voice cried out to me... *Not a voice like a sound, but more of an intuition.* He told me to give up that passive way because it was not my way. I understand that. Everyone has their way, my destiny is Christianity because I come from the first Christian nation and it has held my people together, even through GENOCIDE!
> 
> ...


He did that to me, too - not a voice, but a baby rabbit crossing a road at 2am on my way home from a bar. I told God I hated my life (24 and trying to figure myself out), and not 30 secconds later, I tried to miss him, but I clipped him with my rear tire. It was like I couldn't avoid it. I was also born in the Year of the Rabbit.....It was as if God had said "That could be you, but I have better plans". I still get torn up about it and it's been 12 years......this year is also the Year of the Rabbit to the Chinese.


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

millenniumman75 said:


> He did that to me, too - not a voice, but a baby rabbit crossing a road at 2am on my way home from a bar. I told God I hated my life (24 and trying to figure myself out), and not 30 secconds later, I tried to miss him, but I clipped him with my rear tire. It was like I couldn't avoid it. I was also born in the Year of the Rabbit.....It was as if God had said "That could be you, but I have better plans". I still get torn up about it and it's been 12 years......this year is also the Year of the Rabbit to the Chinese.


Back up... let me get this straight, you were driving distressed (and possibly drunk) at 2 in the morning, and you were angry with your God. You then proceeded to murder a baby rabbit with your vehicle. *And your conclusion was that this was God communicating with you.  :no

*I don't even know where to begin telling you what is wrong with that logic. Suffice it to say, you probably hit that poor rabbit because you were driving distressed (and possibly drunk) at 2 in the morning.


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## SPC (May 14, 2011)

cant we all just be agnostic and happy?


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

Godless1 said:


> Back up... let me get this straight, you were driving distressed (and possibly drunk) at 2 in the morning, and you were angry with your God. You then proceeded to murder a baby rabbit with your vehicle. *And your conclusion was that this was God communicating with you.  :no
> 
> *I don't even know where to begin telling you what is wrong with that logic. Suffice it to say, you probably hit that poor rabbit because you were driving distressed (and possibly drunk) at 2 in the morning.


You wouldn't get it. Not everything has to be logical, that's the point. Way to make things dark by the way. He's sharing an experience he's had that he obviously and vividly remembers even though he was drunk. Maybe he remembers for a reason...

You still don't *see*?

They did a study on lucky people. They asked the psychologist, how could you do a study on something so intangible? Well, all he did was collect the characteristics of "lucky" people and "unlucky" people. Turns out that lucky people tend to think _everything happens for a reason._ He explains, that in turn, this way of cognition makes even the most difficult times of your life livable because you see it in a positive light. In turn, you can learn from it more easily, rather than be victim to it.

Could you do that?


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

SolaceChaser said:


> They did a study on lucky people. They asked the psychologist, how could you do a study on something so intangible? Well, all he did was collect the characteristics of "lucky" people and "unlucky" people. Turns out that lucky people tend to think _everything happens for a reason._ He explains, that in turn, this way of cognition makes even the most difficult times of your life livable because you see it in a positive light. In turn, you can learn from it more easily, rather than be victim to it.
> 
> Could you do that?


A person can try and find the positives in every situation without adhering to the cockamamie notion that everything happens for a reason. So to answer your question, yes I can, and do, try to take the positives from experiences; but, no, I refuse to believe that everything inherently happens for some grand purpose.


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

Godless1 said:


> A person can try and find the positives in every situation without adhering to the cockamamie notion that everything happens for a reason. So to answer your question, yes I can, and do, try to take the positives from experiences; but, no, I refuse to believe that everything inherently happens for some grand purpose.


Is it really that hard to believe? Even intelligence and logic has it's downfall. Everything is interconnected and it's a fact. Karma is also a fact. Action comes from a cause and has an effect. That's all it is.

To explain something that you cannot perceive as cockamamie or whatever word you used, I think is ignorant and disrespectful.

You remind me of my atheist roommate, whom I get along with but I feel sorry for at the same time. He thinks he's happy, he goes to bars and clubs and drinks... He thinks that brings happiness... And it does for a while, then one day he feels all ****ty and can't explain it with all his eloquent logic and rationale. He's a computer science major by the way and thinks just like a computer, like some other people I can think of. Some people I am going to conclude are just born blind, it's useless trying to help them out. This is the same reason a computer will never be truly "alive." The guy walks like one, too, talks like one, dances like one... Y'all are so reliant in your tools that it takes you over.

For wide is the entrance, but narrow is the exit.

I don't want to carry this on... Good luck on your deathbed one day. Peace, I'll pray for your soul if you even have one.


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

Neptunus said:


> However, I would edit it to say *some* Christians. Most are better than you.


You mean everyone's quote bag, google? 

Now, you don't even know me and you stoop down to the same level, what makes _you_ any better. If the man thinks he doesn't have a soul so let it be.

Ok, that's my last one, I promise. Over and out


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

^
"Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in."

I think you did more than just call it. You don't know me at all and yet you make a huge speculation. Have I ever talked to you before?

I'm not the Christ, I'm not perfect, just like the various Gods you idolize.


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

Neptunus said:


> Can't take your own medicine, eh?


You know nothing of my medicine. I don't know Godless and I might have jabbed him here or there, but I never said he was a good or bad person.


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

He's an atheist, do you think he thinks he has a soul? I'm not stupid enough to question the obvious.

And I don't know if you had time to read the scripture I quoted, but the Bible refers to atheists as fools.

*and idolatry is what paganism is, at least according to the dictionary and everywhere else. I'm not really doing anything you're not doing to yourself.

And anyway, I like arguing with you, genuinely. I think your feisty , but I have things to do as the night beckons. God bless


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

Neptunus said:


> ^ And posting that quote here is really supportive. If you're so concerned about sharing your message, why don't you post it in the Atheist forum? Cat got your bollocks?


I'm not sharing my message, I'm defending it. As you can see this is the spirituality forum that has an atheist questioning it's grounds... Whether he wants to find answers or not... I don't know. I'm just on *my* forum, doing my thing. Is that not obvious to you?

Lol, I go from someone that can only see the obvious, from someone who can't. Oh Jesus, forgive them for they know not what they do.

Peace, I'm out. *Throws down mic and bows, then crip walks the hell out of the stage


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## Godless1 (Aug 1, 2008)

Well, that was entertaining.


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## LuxAeterna (Aug 13, 2010)

Bahahaha. Yes, definitely entertaining. Should have entered this one a few pages back. Might have been fun.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

This is a microcosm of emotion/intuition-based rationality vs fact-based rationality which could be applied on a global scale. History shows the monumental slaughters that have resulted (and may continue to result) when communication inevitably shifts into egoism/territoriality due to such irreconciliably differing views regarding the world and self in this area. 


The conflict will likely not always be as inconsequential as what ideology do you want to 'accessorize' your identity with (while a daddy-state watches over the real issues of the world). At some point these two fundamentally opposing idealogies will likely come into mortal conflict with each other over resources. The question is what ideology will best contribute to the survival of the species. Do we want a society founded on observable and update-able fact (science) working towards an ideal mold of universally respectful and mentally healthy culture/morality or one based on unwaveringly rigid ancient tales which reinforce and demand emotion-based 'intuition'?


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## Slogger (Dec 14, 2010)

KurtG85 said:


> Do we want a society founded on observable and update-able fact (science) working towards an ideal mold of universally respectful and mentally healthy culture/morality or one based on unwaveringly rigid ancient tales which reinforce and demand emotion-based 'intuition'?


But will people follow the lead of science if their intuition/emotions/desires or whatever don't agree? Science says, "Don't smoke, don't overeat, don't lie out in the sun without sunscreen, don't listen to those voices in your head, don't dump your used motor oil into the sewer, don't ignore unusual lumps in your breast, don't use paint remover in an enclosed area, etc., etc.," but people do all that stuff anyway.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

Slogger said:


> But will people follow the lead of science if their intuition/emotions/desires or whatever don't agree? Science says, "Don't smoke, don't overeat, don't lie out in the sun without sunscreen, don't listen to those voices in your head, don't dump your used motor oil into the sewer, don't ignore unusual lumps in your breast, don't use paint remover in an enclosed area, etc., etc.," but people do all that stuff anyway.


That is exactly the evolutionary quandry/leap we face; how do we tame and overcome such self destructive emotion/ego based impulsive flaws in our rationality? I certainly don't discount the uniting power of drama, theater and even suppossed divine favor to unite people. However the divine right/favor bit of the equation will likely equal the extinction of the human species judging from the extremely long and repititious history of religiously instigated mass-slaughter.

2 or more civilizations claiming egotistical superiority because some ancient texts/lessons and basic methods of group think have enabled and encouraged them to engage in such self destructive behavior (as it relates to the 'big picture') is like trying to fit a square block into a round hole in this age of technological advancement where a failure to integrate will lead to the loss of all the progress we have made.

The united states is the show piece of advanced psyche manipulation techniques which has shown that, by giving people of all different races/creeds a common culture they can relate to, it is possible to program a mass of very genetically different people to live and interact peaceably. It is this scientific and artfull manipulation of the human psyche which has created this culture we live in where people are now quickly becoming capable of overcoming ancient irrational fears which have held back effective cooperation of the species.

God may certainly exist. I sincerely hope he/she/it does, but the fact is that the existence of multiple rigid, unflinchingly stubborn belief systems rooted in very little else than written/spoken word and group-think has long been proven to be the blue print for disaster and is especially dangerous to progress in this day and age. I don't believe any god/s would be foolish enough to be incapable of recognizing this nor do I think he would damn me or anyone else from stepping back from the rigid systems you suppossedly must tie down your own intellect and curiosity with in order to have a relationship with he/she/it/them. That is not to say that their fundamental basis of loving kindness, forgiveness, and other base kinds of morality is not a far superior model to the attitudes promoted in our current mainstream culture. In fact I think if the most empathetic and sensitive among us who are often drawn to these rigid belief systems never start looking at the real factors which influence our society and culture (*and get educated and involved*) then it might be the psychopathic and narcissistic culture promoted and encouraged by money hoarding which may destroy us.


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## Freiheit (Dec 8, 2008)

blc1 said:


> Do you have violents shifts from belief in God to disbelief to belief? Sometimes I sincerely wish I could avoid the question altogether.


Yes. There are days that I pray and stuff because I feel that believing in something helps me cope with problems better but there are a lot of things that I don't believe are necessary in the religion I was brought up in. Some days I don't really believe in god at all. I guess I'm mostly agnostic, because I'm not sure, but I still go to church and practice organized religion because it's a tradition in my family.


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