# I’m confused about the “nice guy” thing



## LonelyEnigma (Jan 7, 2007)

Ladies, would you like being in a relationship with a guy who... 

1. Cares more about you than he does about himself 
2. Values the well-being of you more than the well-being of himself
3. Allows you to have some say in decision making
4. Treats you much better than he treats strangers
5. Speaks from the heart, instead of playing flirtatious games
6. Develops serious feelings for you 
7. Would sacrifice his life to save yours
8. Does not flirt with other women
9. Speaks respectfully toward you
10. Wants to spend most of his time with you
11. Gives you genuine complements
12. Helps you achieve your endeavors 
13. Comforts you if you’re emotionally or physically hurt
14. Stands up for you if someone mistreats you
15. Will not manipulate you for sex
16. Allows you to express your opinion


Right click, copy/paste the above list then place a Y (yes) or an N (no) to the left-hand side of each statement. After that, feel free to write comments and/or analysis. 

I was inspired to write this because of the rumors I’ve heard about women disliking men who exhibit these attributes/behaviors. I don’t plan on EVER changing my personality just to be accepted; however, I was just curious about how women perceive men who exhibit some of the listed attributes/behaviors.


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## HumiliatedGuy (Jan 13, 2008)

The women you aren't interested in will accept those traits you mentioned. The women you really want to have a relationship with go for the guy who is good looking, has money, or has high social status.


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## el33 (Sep 18, 2006)

1. Cares more about you than he does about himself
Placing her on a pedestal. No challenge. BORING.

2. Values the well-being of you more than the well-being of himself
Placing her on a pedestal, no challenge. BORING.

3. Allows you to have some say in decision making
Men should be natural leaders and take initiative.

4. Treats you much better than he treats strangers.
Being manipulative to get sex.

5. Speaks from the heart, instead of playing flirtatious games.
BORING~

6. Develops serious feelings for you 
I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

7. Would sacrifice his life to save yours
I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

8. Does not flirt with other women
Not sexual enough. No challenge. BORING.

9. Speaks respectfully toward you.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but might be construed as boring depending on the circumstances.

10. Wants to spend most of his time with you.
No challenge. BORING.

11. Gives you genuine complements
Being manipulative to get sex. No challenge. BORING.

12. Helps you achieve your endeavors 
Nothing wrong with that.

13. Comforts you if you’re emotionally or physically hurt
Nothing wrong with that.

14. Stands up for you if someone mistreats you
Nothing wrong with that.

15. Will not manipulate you for sex
The mere act of being nice is cause for suspicion for being manipulative.

16. Allows you to express your opinion
Nothing wrong with that.

Granted, some of the answers above are half-sarcastic. But only half-sarcastic.

Nice guys seem to be getting a very bad rap. They are considered demons incarnate, devils in disguise, who only want to get sex from women and are more manipulative than cult leaders, hiding behind a false mask of niceness, courteousness, and gentlemanliness. I don't know how the hell this happened, but that's what I'm seeing.

Not that I agree with this of course.

The bad boys on the other hand at least seem to get respect in that they're considered genuine.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

1. Cares more about you than he does about himself
No. I have pretty massive self worth issues though so my response is kindof biased.

2. Values the well-being of you more than the well-being of himself
Ditto

3. Allows you to have some say in decision making
Yes please. It's a two way street.

4. Treats you much better than he treats strangers
I really hope so. If not why are we together?

5. Speaks from the heart, instead of playing flirtatious games
Please. Games hurt my brain and waste my time.

6. Develops serious feelings for you
In the long run, I'd hope so

7. Would sacrifice his life to save yours
See self worth issues above. No.

8. Does not flirt with other women
I'd prefer it, but as long as I trusted him I wouldn't be heartbroken about it. Everyone's entitled to a little flirting.

9. Speaks respectfully toward you
He would not last two hours if he didn't.

10. Wants to spend most of his time with you
Most? Doesn't need to be most. Just you know, call me every couple of days or something.

11. Gives you genuine complements
In general, yes, this is a good quality. Compliments make me uncomfortable though, but for the sake of this survey yes.

12. Helps you achieve your endeavors
It would be nice.

13. Comforts you if you’re emotionally or physically hurt
Yes. Seriously maybe I'm naturally drawn to the nice guys, but who would want to be with someone who didn't do this?

14. Stands up for you if someone mistreats you
See above.

15. Will not manipulate you for sex
I'd hope not. Like games, I do not enjoy manipulation. It's just not cool.

16. Allows you to express your opinion
Yes. Relationships would be kindof boring otherwise.

These questions seem to cover two kinds of guys, to me at least. Stuff like treats you with respect and gives you comfort seems to be the typical "nice guy", who I always fall for. I do not find games or manipulation or the typical bad boy appealing. Other questions though seemed geared to "intense serious relationship guy" like caring more about you them himself. Maybe it's just my interpretation and personal experience, but I don't think "nice guy" fits in this category by default.

Asking you for your input on where to go to dinner is nice. Saying he'd leap in front of a bus for you before you're in a reaaally serious relationship is quite another story.


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## colonelpoop (Jun 18, 2008)

I would disregard what el said Lonely, I think he is one of those under the impression that women genuinely like a**holes.

1. Cares more about you than he does about himself 

A man should value his self-worth just as much as he does his spouse.

2. Values the well-being of you more than the well-being of himself

Again, I think everyone should respect other just as much as themselves

3. Allows you to have some say in decision making

Of course! I do not know of one woman who would date man that refused her input on decisions.

4. Treats you much better than he treats strangers

Yes, I would expect the same too!

5. Speaks from the heart, instead of playing flirtatious games

Of course. Women hate headgames just as much as men do.

6. Develops serious feelings for you 

Just go to any movie starring Hugh Grant, I guarantee you will find more women than men watching it. I think all women want to feel loved in their relationship. Otherwise it wouldn't be much of a relationship.

7. Would sacrifice his life to save yours

I take the fifth on this one, hehe.

8. Does not flirt with other women

A woman would have to have no respect for herself if she stayed with a man who did this.

9. Speaks respectfully toward you

No woman wants to be treated condescendingly. Which is why we have safe houses for battered wives.

10. Wants to spend most of his time with you

Yes. Couples definitely do this.

11. Gives you genuine complements

This might be where you are getting hung up about the nice guy thing. What is a genuine compliment? It can be cheesy and embarassing if a guy is constantly slinging compliments around when they are not sincere. Women recognize sincerity very well.

12. Helps you achieve your endeavors 

Yes, the women love this.

13. Comforts you if you’re emotionally or physically hurt

Yes. Nothing wrong with puttin a band-aid on your man though. We get hurt too : )

14. Stands up for you if someone mistreats you

Of course.

15. Will not manipulate you for sex

Of course.

16. Allows you to express your opinion

Of course again.


I think women definitely value sincerity and saying I love you when it isn't true, or consistently telling her how pretty she is on the first date can come across as forward and brimming of insecurity.


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## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

yes to all.


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## leppardess (Nov 8, 2003)

1. Cares more about you than he does about himself

That ideal sounds nice at first realistically, I'd rather have a guy that cares at least as much for me as he does for himself. 

2. Values the well-being of you more than the well-being of himself

See above^^

3. Allows you to have some say in decision making

I wouldn't be with someone who didn't allow me to have a say in anything that's going on. 

4. Treats you much better than he treats strangers

I would hope so :um 

5. Speaks from the heart, instead of playing flirtatious games

I'd rather have someone be straight forward with me, rather than play games... been there, done that, don't like it one bit. 

6. Develops serious feelings for you

Only after we've gotten to know each other for a while. Too soon and that's just creepy :afr 

7. Would sacrifice his life to save yours

I really don't see any need for anyone to put their life before mine. But, reasonable sacrifices are more or less expected in any serious relationship. And that goes both ways, not just for the man. 

8. Does not flirt with other women

I'd hope that if someone was with me that they wouldn't flirt with other women. That's just plain disrespectful. 

9. Speaks respectfully toward you

I would hope so. 

10. Wants to spend most of his time with you

I don't expect anyone to make a point to spend most of his time with me. I have need of a a lot of 'alone' time.

11. Gives you genuine complements

As long as it's not 'run on' compliments, even if they're genuine because that comes off as being needy and insecure... and fake. 

12. Helps you achieve your endeavors

I would think that would be an integral part of any serious relationship :stu

13. Comforts you if you’re emotionally or physically hurt

See above ^^ 

14. Stands up for you if someone mistreats you

That would be nice if it's called for. 

15. Will not manipulate you for sex

I wouldn't be with someone who would do that to me. 

16. Allows you to express your opinion

I would hope so.


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## mountain5 (May 22, 2008)

All I have to add is that I've noticed, nice guys tend to fall for not so nice girls. So I can't get too mad when nice girls fall for jerks.


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## R (Jun 13, 2006)

dude this is a question since the beginning of time and its easy.

Answer girls don't like nice guys or bad guys and that leaves you to forever be confused about where the middle ground is.


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## colonelpoop (Jun 18, 2008)

haha,

I like that answer R! That's gonna be my new reply to this question from now on.


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## mserychic (Oct 2, 2004)

The first 2 don't work for me. Nothing good comes from being on a pedestal.


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## path0gen (Jun 28, 2006)

What el33 said.


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## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

1. Cares more about you than he does about himself
I agree with everyone who said a man should also care about himself.

2. Values the well-being of you more than the well-being of himself.
Same as above. 

3. Allows you to have some say in decision making
Any relationship I'm in would be 50/50. I wouldn't have someone else make my decisions for me.

4. Treats you much better than he treats strangers
Who -man or woman- would want to be with someone who didn't?

5. Speaks from the heart, instead of playing flirtatious games
Of course.

6. Develops serious feelings for you
After a long time of dating, I would hope so. I would be extremely uncomfortable if a man were to develop serious feelings after, say, one or two dates, though.

7. Would sacrifice his life to save yours
I don't think it's healthy to think of one person's life as more valuable than another's. I guess I'll say yes, if we're madly in love and have been together for 30 years, because I'm sure I would sacrifice my life to save his as well. 

8. Does not flirt with other women
Yes.

9. Speaks respectfully toward you
Of course, just as long as he doesn't talk to me like a child. I want to be spoken to as his partner, not like someone he feels like he has to walk on egg shells around.

10. Wants to spend most of his time with you
No. I would like to have some time by myself, and would prefer a partner who values his independence from me. I would not feel comfortable being with someone whose world revolves around me.

11. Gives you genuine complements
I would feel uncomfortable if I was bombarded with compliments. Saying genuinely nice things is one thing, but saying "Oh baby, you have the most beautiful eyes in the entire world" 15 times a day wouldn't appeal to me and, even if the compliment came from his heart, it would seem insincere after a while.

12. Helps you achieve your endeavors
Yes.

13. Comforts you if you’re emotionally or physically hurt
Yes.

14. Stands up for you if someone mistreats you
No, I can fight my own battles. It's something I need to do for myself.

15. Will not manipulate you for sex
Who would want that?

16. Allows you to express your opinion
If my partner didn't allow me to express my opinion, I wouldn't allow him to keep his testicles attached to his body.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

I'm biologically male and a sissy, let's see which of these characteristics I have:

1. Cares more about you than he does about himself

I care more about anyone than I care about myself.

2. Values the well-being of you more than the well-being of himself

Same as 1.

3. Allows you to have some say in decision making

I'd actually prefer it for the woman to take the lead whenever possible

4. Treats you much better than he treats strangers

Probably.

5. Speaks from the heart, instead of playing flirtatious games

Yes, unfortunately

6. Develops serious feelings for you

Of course

7. Would sacrifice his life to save yours

I don't know about that, I'm pretty chicken.

8. Does not flirt with other women

Who'd flirt with me?

9. Speaks respectfully toward you

Not that I disrespect people, but I don't go out of my way with niceties.

10. Wants to spend most of his time with you

Yeah, it's not like I have that many friends.

11. Gives you genuine complements

Yes, but I have trouble giving compliments because I'm afraid they'll scare people away.

12. Helps you achieve your endeavors

Yes.

13. Comforts you if you’re emotionally or physically hurt

Yes though more likely I'll be the one who's hurt.

14. Stands up for you if someone mistreats you

I'll try my best, but again, I'm pretty spineless.

15. Will not manipulate you for sex

No, sex would be good to have but i'm in a relationship for the person, not the body.

16. Allows you to express your opinion

Of course.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

A nice guy is as beautiful as an adorned silver lamp.

He is also as sexually attractive as an adorned silver lamp.

Women think nice guys are beautiful people, but they don't view nice guys as people they'd ever date.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

Most of what you list more closely describe a nice "girl" than "guy". Let's face it guys who act like this are not masculine and girls aren't attracted to it. Girls want mystery, excitement, fun and most of all they want to be taken by the hand and lead by a real man. They want a guy that takes charge of their lives and hers. I'm not saying you can't be nice and still not get the girl. The balance is embrace your masculinity without being a jerk. Why do your think jerks get girls? Because they embrace their masculinity. 

Girls will say they want all of the above in a man, yet act like this and see if you ever get past the friend zone. It's not the girls fault she's like this, its just in their nature to desire a strong confident, male, just like it in a guys nature to desire other things...


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Redefine said:


> Most of what you list more closely describe a nice "girl" than "guy". Let's face it guys who act like this are not masculine and girls aren't attracted to it. Girls want mystery, excitement, fun and most of all they want to be controlled and at the same time feel protected by a real MAN. They want a guy that takes charge of their lives and hers. I'm not saying you can't be nice and still not get the girl. The balance is embrace your masculinity without being a jerk. Why do your think jerks get girls? Because they embrace their masculinity.
> 
> Girls will say they want all of the above in a man, yet act like this and see if you ever get past the friend zone. It's not the girls fault she's like this, its just in their nature to desire a strong confident, male, just like it in a guys nature to desire other things...


I think part of the problem here is that this describes GIRLS. How many of us guys in our 20s want to be with GIRLS, rather than WOMEN?

You will never convince me that a woman wants to be controlled and have their lives "taken charge" of. We're not in the ****ing 1950s anymore.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Okay, not "controlled", but she doesn't want to be in control and fending for herself all the time and that special time when she isn't is when she's with her lover. She may not want a man to be her slavemaster, she wants room to breathe, talk to friends, and express her femininity, but she also wants that lovely feeling of security that a confident man provides.

Women these days haven't changed that much from the 1950's in terms of what they want in a guy. They may be more educated and can make their own money, but they still want that knight in shining armor to sweep her off her feet and take her up to his castle where she'll be safe and secure in his arms.

That classic 1950's hero is still a hottie to women of today.

A shy introverted dork of a guy is still as unattractive today as he was then.

Once again, these are generalizations, as I am not a man despite being biologically male, and I'm sure there are a couple females who aren't women despite being biologically female. (Though I haven't met any female in person who doesn't want a man more confident and strong than she is, no matter how strong she herself is)


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

PGVan said:


> I think part of the problem here is that this describes GIRLS. How many of us guys in our 20s want to be with GIRLS, rather than WOMEN?


What is a real woman then? See to me a woman is a mature female 35+ that has stopped being feminine or is married. You see all these movements with all these strong alpha WOMEN and do think them as desirable? Hell no. Most of these WOMEN have no boyfriends, are gay or hate men. Even if you were to desire one of these WOMEN, what do you think will attract them? Do you think buying them flowers and worshiping them will attract them? No way, they would laugh in your face and stomp all over you. Guys are attractive to girls, not woman. Girls just want to have fun, woman want to be ceos.



> You will never convince me that a woman wants to be controlled and have their lives "taken charge" of. We're not in the @#%$ 1950s anymore.


So you think just because this is "not the 1950s" that female nature has changed at all? God no. A girl/woman/female, deep down inside wants to be taken by the hand and lead. When I said control I really meant they desire to be lead (I couldn't think of the right word). Why do you think nice guys fail 90% of the time? They're boring, and not in control of the relationship. They are the ones always asking the girl what she wants to do. Geez man, a guy is suppose to be leading things in a relationship. This is desirable in a guy. Too many guys are scared to lead. Please don't give me "no the girl of today is different!". NO they are not. A girl/woman/female wants a MAN to lead her. Haven't you ever heard a girl say she wants to get swept off her feet?

I hate getting into this stuff because I feel like a anthropologist or something but it all has to do with testosterone. In our species the male is the one with the testosterone. He is the aggressor, the hunter, the dominant figure. He protects the female. This is just the nature of things I'm sure you know all this.


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## LonelyEnigma (Jan 7, 2007)

This post is not directed at anyone in particular, but rather a short exposition about some of my thoughts regarding the jerk/nice guy phenomenon. 

I don’t get how acting like a jerk, manipulating women, and treating women like they’re unimportant makes someone more masculine. Many so called macho guys I know are rather pathetic and weak. They’re fake. They run around talking sh*t, picking on the weak, and bragging about themselves …. But when it comes time to walk (to prove they’re as tough, intelligent, or real as they say they are) they back down like cowards. Not only do they back down from physical altercations, but they also back down from mental and emotional altercation. 

I find that I can man-handle most of these loudmouthed, fake as$holes. Not only do they suddenly become respectful/quiet when I’m around… But they also can’t defend or explain their behavior. Their morals are based on doing what they think is “cool”, what will make them popular, or what will get them laid …. Instead of what they personally believe. 

When I question there ethics, they just laugh it off or try to avoid answering. For example, I’ve interrogated a few players. They will be “bragging” about all the women they fu*ked, thinking I’m going to think they’re “cool” and support/encourage there behavior. Usually, I will remain quiet, but sometimes I speak-up for what I believe. I condemn and question there behavior, and these “macho” guy don’t have anything to say. Why? Because they don’t have a good reason to justify what they do.

It’s real easy to follow the crowd. It’s real easy to be obsessed with oneself. It’s real easy to only care about oneself. It’s real easy to think with your d*ck, rather than think with your heart. It’s real easy to bully people half your size. It’s real easy to let people mistreat the people you care about. It’s real easy to be selfish. It’s real easy to disrespect others. 

But a real MAN does what he believes, rather than what society tells him to do. A real man cares about others. A real man follows his heart. A real man treats women with respect. A real man does not have to disrespect others to uplift his own self-esteem. A real man does not have to constantly flirt with others to verify his self-worth. A real man will suffer so his family can be happy. A real man will not play stupid, childish games. A real man will die to protect his woman. 

People often say things like, “Well, you can keep being nice to ladies, but you’ll never get laid”. You really think I give a fu*k about that sh*t. I would rather die, than compromise my morals or change my personality just to get laid. 

Many jerk claim that being nice is fake. NOT true. Being nice is only fake if you’re a jerk. If you’re a jerk, then you probably can’t comprehend why anyone would be nice for reason other than wanting sex. I don’t know if feeling good about helping and loving others is an innate or learned habit, but regardless of the etiology that feeling does exist in some people.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

LonelyEnigma said:


> But a real MAN does what he believes, rather than what society tells him to do. A real man cares about others. A real man follows his heart. A real man treats women with respect. A real man does not have to disrespect others to uplift his own self-esteem. A real man does not have to constantly flirt with others to verify his self-worth. A real man will suffer so his family can be happy. A real man will not play stupid, childish games. A real man will die to protect his woman.


Absolutely this is the essence of what a man is. Being a jerk is not being a man. I know, what you mean about fake guys that just try to fit in with the crowd, I hate these guys. They are not confident in who they are and are constantly trying to put others down around them to make them feel better. A real man helps others around him. He knows who he is and is completely comfortable being himself. He is already complete without a girl in his life and is naturally happy with or without a girl. A complete man has no desperation. But, a man also goes for what he wants. Like I said girls like to have fun. Being a jerk to a girl and disrespecting them is not the way to go, but playing around with them and having fun while doing it is.

BTW I'm no way a complete man (barely out of highschool) and kind of feel like a hypocrite, but I'm on my way to self improvement. Most of what I've learned comes from this ebook called The Book of Pook and another book called Weapons of Mass Seduction (I know it sounds cheesy as hell, but its good stuff, its by Senor Fingers not the one on Amazon.com). Before I read these books I really knew nothing about girls. I definably recommend these reads for you, they'll help you see things in new ways.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Redefine said:


> So you think just because this is "not the 1950s" that female nature has changed at all? God no. A girl/woman/female, deep down inside wants to be taken by the hand and lead. When I said control I really meant they desire to be lead (I couldn't think of the right word). Why do you think nice guys fail 90% of the time? They're boring, and not in control of the relationship. They are the ones always asking the girl what she wants to do. Geez man, a guy is suppose to be leading things in a relationship. This is desirable in a guy. Too many guys are scared to lead. Please don't give me "no the girl of today is different!". NO they are not. A girl/woman/female wants a MAN to lead her. Haven't you ever heard a girl say she wants to get swept off her feet?
> 
> I hate getting into this stuff because I feel like a anthropologist or something but it all has to do with testosterone. In our species the male is the one with the testosterone. He is the aggressor, the hunter, the dominant figure. He protects the female. This is just the nature of things I'm sure you know all this.


I completely agree with you. Women want manly men. The problem is that I am biologically male but I like women the way women like men so I'm royally f*cked over. So even if I somehow get all manly, I want a woman more "manly" than I am who wants to take the lead, a type of woman who I have never seen in real life.


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## el33 (Sep 18, 2006)

> I don't get how acting like a jerk, manipulating women, and treating women like they're unimportant makes someone more masculine. Many so called macho guys I know are rather pathetic and weak. They're fake. They run around talking sh*t, picking on the weak, and bragging about themselves &#8230;. But when it comes time to walk (to prove they're as tough, intelligent, or real as they say they are) they back down like cowards. Not only do they back down from physical altercations, but they also back down from mental and emotional altercation.


I don't understand this either, but it feels like that it's exactly this kind of man who seems to have success with women.

And let's be honest, most people don't experience "when it comes time to walk", so I don't think that ever comes into play.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

el33 said:


> I don't understand this either, but it feels like that it's exactly this kind of man who seems to have success with women.


Here's a little excerpt from "The Book of Pook" where it describes why jerks get girls and why nice guys don't.



> *The Mystery of Mysteries *
> 
> There are three mysteries to the world: the rise and fall of civilizations, fruitcake, and why beautiful women go for jerks.
> 
> ...


The dude kinda sounds like a misogynist, but his ideas are spot on. I know it may be a little confusing to follow, but if you read the whole book you would understand.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Redefine said:


> What is a real woman then? See to me a woman is a mature female 35+ that has stopped being feminine or is married.


So a 34 year-old single female is a girl? You make no sense at all.

A woman is an adult female. Simple as that.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

I actually don't look particularly for those traits in a guy. I look for someone who I get along really well with -first of all. Someone with whom I have a spark, a chemistry with (mentally), and with whom I'm also just great friends with.

Then I look to whether sexually they are compatible with me -whether they want the same things, define a relationship the same way that I do.

-That's enough "respect" for me.


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## Snickersnack (Jun 21, 2008)

RubyTuesday said:


> I actually don't look particularly for those traits in a guy. I look for someone who I get along really well with -first of all. Someone with whom I have a spark, a chemistry with (mentally), and with whom I'm also just great friends with.
> 
> Then I look to whether sexually they are compatible with me -whether they want the same things, define a relationship the same way that I do.
> 
> -That's enough "respect" for me.


I don't think you can state the obvious enough without bashing the knowlege into their heads with a 2X4. Why is it that the _actual_ women on here are supportive and encouraging, and everything they say is ignored? Oh, right, because chicks are emotional, illogical, and don't know what they want, unlike us. :sus

Personally, this thread sort of makes me feel better about _myself_, or at least my potential-which in itself is a rare enough occasion-and, supposedly, isn't "confidence" a good thing? Or is it better to just pretend you're someone else in order to snag some "tail"? Also, if "girls" were the shallow, weak creatures some have described here (before they turn 35, stop being feminine (?) and morph overnight into Bagatha the Sea Hag, apparently), I'd have seriously misjudged an entire gender, because while many fit that description, I've known some pretty cool ones.

Read LonelyEnigma's posts again-this guy knows what he's talking about.

People have relationships with people they are emotionally and sexually attracted to. Amazingly, some people are attracted to different types of people. However, almost everyone is attracted to outgoing people who feel good about themselves and are, in some way, successful. This makes sense. Some people take the easy route and treat people like crap. That sucks. I don't envy jerks for their jerkishness, because those guys suck. Thanks for helping me realize that.


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## quietgal (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm confused about it too - where do people get this idea that girls like jerks? Maybe I'm just out of touch. I'm a sucker for the honorable, chivalrous guy, who treat his mother and sisters well. Who is loyal and honest, at least at heart, and doesn't make promises he doesn't intend to keep. You don't have to act like Conan the Barbarian to be a real man - there are different styles of "manliness" and different girls have different preferences. Just be yourself, as long as you aim to be as good and decent a person as you can be.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

PGVan said:


> Redefine said:
> 
> 
> > What is a real woman then? See to me a woman is a mature female 35+ that has stopped being feminine or is married.
> ...


Yes obviously that's a very simplified generalization I made about my view of a woman. Besides, I'm not saying that unattractive females can't be good people or not fun to be around. However, the rest of what I said is spot on and makes plenty of sense. See, underneath all those feminine curves that drive us wild, lies a young girl at heart who just wants to have fun. You can argue to me about what the definition of a woman is or whatever, but the truth is no matter what age a woman is they go NUTS over a guy who keeps his boyhood charm as women want an ESCAPE. They do not want to hear your views on the world. They want to have the happiness and fun of their childhood back (as everyone does!).


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## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

Redefine said:


> I'm on my way to self improvement. Most of what I've learned comes from this ebook called The Book of Pook and another book called Weapons of Mass Seduction (I know it sounds cheesy as hell, but its good stuff, its by Senor Fingers not the one on Amazon.com). Before I read these books I really knew nothing about girls.


Books like these are just another product (like shoes and makeup), designed to make money. They point out all your supposed problems, and promise to sell you the solution.

I would suggest observing all the healthy, long-term couples you know from REAL LIFE, and see how they treat each other. This might give you more realistic ideas than a book written by someone named Senor Fingers....

(A user here, I think it was yeah_yeah_yeah, used the techniques you're referring to, found them effective in a limited way, but decided not to use them anymore because they were unhealthy)
edit: it was yeahyeahyeah, at 12:27 am, and it's here: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=78149&p=885141#p885141


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## matt404 (Feb 8, 2006)

jane said:


> I would suggest observing all the healthy, long-term couples you know from REAL LIFE, and see how they treat each other. This might give you more realistic ideas than a book written by someone named Senor Fingers....


 :agree I used to let the whole "nice guy vs bad boy" thing get me down. I'll never be the self-assured, controlling jerk that "all women want" according to books on the subject. That's not my personality and never will be, and I'm not going to change who I am solely for the purpose of gaining the affections of a girl who I could never respect anyway. I figured I might just have to deal with being alone forever because of who I was.

Whenever I felt like that, though, I forced myself to think of all the real-life long-term relationships I know. Sure, some of them are great girls with jerk guys, but a lot of them are also great girls with great guys. The guys certainly aren't jerks. A lot of my nerdy, "nice guy" friends have managed to get married to really great girls. So while the whole "being a jerk" thing might help sometime with some women, it's clearly not a prerequisite for having a relationship.

It probably is harder for us "nice guys" to find someone. Clearly some of the ideas being discussed here are true for some women. But I wouldn't recommend changing yourself just to find someone. Isn't the whole idea with love to find someone who loves you for who you are? Why would you be satisfied with someone who doesn't?


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## mountain5 (May 22, 2008)

It's about confidence, but "confidence" is a really loaded term. For me what it means is being assertive about needs, having personal boundaries and protecting those boundaries, being able to take the lead in a social interaction, and being able to handle surprises. All of these are good things to look for in a partner, and things we should aspire to. None of it's specific to dating.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Redefine said:


> Yes obviously that's a very simplified generalization I made about my view of a woman. Besides, I'm not saying that unattractive females can't be good people or not fun to be around. However, the rest of what I said is spot on and makes plenty of sense. See, underneath all those feminine curves that drive us wild, lies a young girl at heart who just wants to have fun. You can argue to me about what the definition of a woman is or whatever, but the truth is no matter what age a woman is they go NUTS over a guy who keeps his boyhood charm as women want an ESCAPE. They do not want to hear your views on the world. They want to have the happiness and fun of their childhood back (as everyone does!).


This may ring true for girls and women who do not want a relationship and just want to hop from guy to guy to guy for some no-strings-attached "fun".

If I am ever lucky enough to get to the early stages of a relationship, she had better want to hear my views on the world, as I want to hear hers as well. Things like that can make or break where you end up as a couple.

Real life isn't just about having fun, especially if you want to raise a family.


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## LonelyEnigma (Jan 7, 2007)

matt404 said:


> Sure, some of them are great girls with jerk guys, but a lot of them are also great girls with great guys. The guys certainly aren't jerks. A lot of my nerdy, "nice guy" friends have managed to get married to really great girls.


 :clap Awesome


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

Snickersnack said:


> I don't think you can state the obvious enough without bashing the knowlege into their heads with a 2X4. Why is it that the _actual_ women on here are supportive and encouraging, and everything they say is ignored?


This. I am a girl. I am, and always have been, attracted to nice, genuine, honest guys. Jerks, bad boys, and the like are not attractive to me in the least. Reading the posts here, it seems like I'm definitely not alone. This girls all liking jerks thing is a stereotype I've argued with some guy friend about, and the fact I disprove it seems to never count! Not that I'm stereotyping the guys, or anything.



jane said:


> Books like these are just another product (like shoes and makeup), designed to make money. They point out all your supposed problems, and promise to sell you the solution.


Also this. That excerpt from that ebook made me cringe. Girls are not all similar and you can't learn their innermost desires from a book. Every single female has a different personality with different likes an dislikes, and paying attention to _that _ rather than trying some sort of blanket technique will probably get you a lot further. We do not all want the same thing, and gathering from the responses in this thread, we especially do not want what was put forth in that ebook.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

jane said:


> Redefine said:
> 
> 
> > I'm on my way to self improvement. Most of what I've learned comes from this ebook called The Book of Pook and another book called Weapons of Mass Seduction (I know it sounds cheesy as hell, but its good stuff, its by Senor Fingers not the one on Amazon.com). Before I read these books I really knew nothing about girls.
> ...


These books were free to download online, and they aren't trying to sell anything. They don't give 'techniques' or tricks to get girls. They are self-improvement books and come from guys who been through it all and merely want to share what they learned and their experiences. Ugh, yeah Senor Fingers :lol , I was really skeptical too before I read them but they tell the truth. And those REAL LIFE long time couples usually have more problems than the single guy/girl. I mean there is a 50% divorce rate in this country, right? I'm not saying that long term relationships don't work ever, but I'm not going to sit around waiting for a perfect girl to fall in my lap. I'm going to find that girl by meeting lots of girls and getting my pick.

A lot of you say you don't want to change your values or whatever and I guess that's fine, but don't complain when jerks get girls and you don't. And I'm not saying 'be a jerk', no way. The only reason jerks even get girls is because they embrace their masculinity.. You can do that too without being a jerk. The key is to be happy with your life and complete BEFORE you go for the girl. Don't look for a girl to provide you with the happiness. A great guy knows HE's the catch and acts like it. He has no desperation because he's already complete before he met the girl. This is extremely attractive to girls. And if you can reach this point, you will look down on jerks and laugh because they will have nothing on you. Like I said it's about self improvement, being the best you can be, not tricks, lines or techniques that mask who you really are. Yea I know about that pick up artist stuff, it makes me sick, thats not what I'm aiming at.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

How do you know these books tell the truth though? Yes some people divorce, but some relationships actually end up happy. Those are worth looking at. 

The thing that bugs me about I guess, as a girl, is that this Senor Fingers guy's opinion takes precedence. I feel like I could shout GIRLS CAN LIKE NICE GUYS WHO AREN'T JERKS all day long but the stereotype will still stick because of guys who have written overgeneralized books like that. 

A relationship should never be a prerequisite for happiness, I think that's very true. Both guys and girls should be able to be happy while they are single. But it sounds like self improvement for the sole purpose of getting a date, if that makes sense. it just feels like the motivations of the book and author are questionable, I don't know. Self improvement not for yourself, but for others? That's not exactly it but I don't know how to explain why it doesn't sit right with me.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

Perfectionist said:


> How do you know these books tell the truth though? Yes some people divorce, but some relationships actually end up happy. Those are worth looking at.
> 
> The thing that bugs me about I guess, as a girl, is that this Senor Fingers guy's opinion takes precedence. I feel like I could shout GIRLS CAN LIKE NICE GUYS WHO AREN'T JERKS all day long but the stereotype will still stick because of guys who have written overgeneralized books like that.
> 
> A relationship should never be a prerequisite for happiness, I think that's very true. Both guys and girls should be able to be happy while they are single. But it sounds like self improvement for the sole purpose of getting a date, if that makes sense. it just feels like the motivations of the books and author are questionable, I don't know. Self improvement not for yourself, but for others?


These books explained to me the nature of feminine sexuality from the point of view of men who dated 100s of them. They know what they are talking about.

Yes those successful relationships are beautiful. Thats what we all are aiming for. But first thing is first, you must become attractive to the girl you want to date before you can date them. How is looking at other relationships going to help any guy become more attractive?

You tend to group guys into two groups, nice guys and jerks. These books are not trying to turn you into a jerk. What these books are trying to do is create you into the third kind of guy, the great catch. The great catch is naturally attractive and doesn't need tricks or techniques to get the girl. Like I said he is already complete and has no desperation and yes he can also be nice and a great guy.

The purpose of these books are still about 'getting the girl' don't get me wrong. But they also say the first step towards getting the girl is self improvement. And a guy can be self improved all he wants but he is still always going to have sexual desires.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

This thread, in a nutshell, is an 18 year-old guy trying to tell a load of young women how they think and behave as females. 

If these guys who have "dates 100s of girls" knew what they were talking about, how come they were obviously unsuccessful with relationships? If you're dating that many girls, you're either not that great of a catch, or you don't want to be.

I didn't want to be this blunt, but now I am going to... this stuff is for the guys and girls who don't want relationships, but who essentially just wanna ****.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

I have to say, I love the post above mine.



Redefine said:


> These books explained to me the nature of feminine sexuality from the point of view of men who dated 100s of them. They know what they are talking about.
> 
> Yes those successful relationships are beautiful. Thats what we all are aiming for. But first thing is first, you must become attractive to the girl you want to date before you can date them. How is looking at other relationships going to help any guy become more attractive?


How do you know what this girl you want to date finds attractive though? As proven by many threads on this site, girls find a wide variety of traits and looks attractive in men. A book can't tell you what your crush finds attractive, only your crush can.

I think that is what successful relationships prove: every one works in it's own unique way and no two couples are the same. If they had something in common, it would probably be that they accept and adore their spouse just as they are, I'd think.

If you want to understand females, the point of view of actual females would probably be a good place to start. I'm all for self improvement, but at least personally I think the idea of trying to turn yourself into a "great catch" who doesn't need techniques to get the girl is in itself, a technique. If you want to change who you are for yourself then cool, good luck. But if you want to change who you are for the entire female population, there's no tried and true personality that we all love.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Snickersnack said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > I actually don't look particularly for those traits in a guy. I look for someone who I get along really well with -first of all. Someone with whom I have a spark, a chemistry with (mentally), and with whom I'm also just great friends with.
> ...


I kind of think that like attracts like: guys only interested in good looking (young!!) women are usually going to be 'out on the prowl'.

Also, I think that youth and some superficiality kind of go together: that, at least with me, I don't care as much about looking 'hot' like I did when I was a teenager/early adult. -which was also around the time that I did go for what was more obviously attractive, namely extroverted, show-off macho guys -interested in of course and who would pay the most attention to good looks. (Although, I never went with them ...sometimes I think I wasted a little time there -and yet, in another way, at least I learnt something about my self.)

And another thing: I was kind of heart broken and for a time put off, thinking that, "all men are only after one thing". 
...Then it slowly occurred to me: that so was I. ...Since why did the "show off macho types" need to change their values and priorities -I mean, why was I going for them so much in the first place or needing of them to change how they are... :stu

..Don't wanna get off the topic too much: but "The Great Gatsby" is a story about tragic romance. The character Gatsby loves rich spoilt girl, Daisy. He puts her on a pedestal and goes absolutely out of his way for her. Gets screwed over majorly -Daisy goes back to her brutish bad boy husband, Tom, who she knew to be having an affair behind her back.

Anyhow, you could feel sorry for the nice guy Gatsby -but why bother so much needing someone to change for you. ...sort of like putting someone on a pedestal, results in your being dumped on or used... but in a way: you kind of ask for it -based on what you choose.

...and likewise, I don't think he's so truly "nice" after all.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Speaking of "haggish"... I've already started to turn "hag" :eek and I'm only 30!! :lol 

-Meh!! ...If God wanted me to be particularly concerned with looking young and beautiful, he wouldn't have invented aging.

...And another thing: I don't wanna waste my time letting my self get trapped into caring much about what others' think -whether they approve of me. ...That's just 'the rat race'/'dog eat dog' way. It's not self created, that's the "Gatsby" way of "love" -you're always at the mercy of something or someone. (And I don't really like 'sad romance' stories -only in as a kind of observation.)


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

PGVan said:


> This thread, in a nutshell, is an 18 year-old guy trying to tell a load of young women how they think and behave as females.


 :doh UGH, NO I'm trying to help the guys out who don't know why they always get rejected by females. Because that's what this thread is about, a guy who doesn't understand why nice guys get rejected. This 18 year old is right about that. And since you seem to be the expert oh wise one whose social experiences dwarf mine :lol (I'm guessing your in your young 20s right?), tell us about your success in the dating realm, give us some of your masterful advice. It seems to me like your just inviting all the 'young woman' to come on your side because you really have nothing to say.



Perfectionist said:


> If you want to understand females, the point of view of actual females would probably be a good place to start. I'm all for self improvement, but at least personally I think the idea of trying to turn yourself into a "great catch" who doesn't need techniques to get the girl is in itself, a technique. If you want to change who you are for yourself then cool, good luck. But if you want to change who you are for the entire female population, there's no tried and true personality that we all love.


The only advice a female ever gives is "be yourself". Most guys have been themselves their whole lives and still never get the girl. Now I'm not saying be someone else, and this is where the self improvement comes in. Be the best you, you can be. I'm not saying all girls find one personality attractive, but they do find certain traits attractive. Are you telling me that you don't find a confident guy attractive? That's what its all about, gaining confidence in who you are. And if a girl can motivate you to towards self improvement, then whats wrong with that? Some guys even improve themselves to the point when they realize it wasn't girls they were after but they were basically trying to find themselves. Its like that saying by thoreau "many men go fishing all their lives not knowing it is not fish they are after" (yes this 18 year old paid attention in english class).


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Redefine said:


> :doh UGH, NO I'm trying to help the guys out who don't know why they always get rejected by females. Because that's what this thread is about, a guy who doesn't understand why nice guys get rejected. This 18 year old is right about that. And since you seem to be the expert oh wise one whose social experiences dwarf mine :lol (I'm guessing your in your young 20s right?), tell us about your success in the dating realm, give us some of your masterful advice. It seems to me like your just inviting all the 'young woman' to come on your side because you really have nothing to say.


Girls/women have posted in this thread that you are not right about all of this, and you are telling them they are wrong. You have still offered zero comeback to me calling this what it is... "advice" for guys who don't want relationships to find girls who don't want relationships, just to ****.

Can you be any more cocky and insulting? Now you're laughing at me due to my lack of social experience.. on a social anxiety website? Get the **** out of here.


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## mountain5 (May 22, 2008)

This debate goes on all over the internet and it never really goes anywhere, people just have their own personal axes to grind. I will say that I agree with this much:



Redefine said:


> The only advice a female ever gives is "be yourself". Most guys have been themselves their whole lives and still never get the girl. Now I'm not saying be someone else, and this is where the self improvement comes in. Be the best you, you can be. I'm not saying all girls find one personality attractive, but they do find certain traits attractive. Are you telling me that you don't find a confident guy attractive? That's what its all about, gaining confidence in who you are. And if a girl can motivate you to towards self improvement, then whats wrong with that? Some guys even improve themselves to the point when they realize it wasn't girls they were after but they were basically trying to find themselves.


That said, I think we're better off going to Toastmasters or taking a Dale Carnegie course than reading dating books targeted toward a young male audience. Learning confidence and basic dating skills doesn't mean twisting your personality to fit some archetype of an 'alpha male.'


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

Redefine said:


> Some guys even improve themselves to the point when they realize it wasn't girls they were after but they were basically trying to find themselves. Its like that saying by thoreau "many men go fishing all their lives not knowing it is not fish they are after" (yes this 18 year old paid attention in english class).


I agree with this, and I think this is what I was trying to say. Self improvement works best when it's for yourself, not for others. Improving yourself to be comfortable dating is different than improving yourself because an ebook says women won't be attracted to you otherwise. The idea of gaining confidence in who you are is great, and is awesome even if you aren't dating. Maybe I'm just really skeptical of the ebook source, and talking about girls in really broad and generalized terms.



mountain5 said:


> Learning confidence and basic dating skills doesn't mean twisting your personality to fit some archetype of an 'alpha male.'


Well said.


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## Redefine (Jan 11, 2005)

PGVan said:


> Girls/women have posted in this thread that you are not right about all of this, and you are telling them they are wrong. You have still offered zero comeback to me calling this what it is... "advice" for guys who don't want relationships to find girls who don't want relationships, just to @#%$.
> 
> Can you be any more cocky and insulting? Now you're laughing at me due to my lack of social experience.. on a social anxiety website? Get the @#%$ out of here.


Sorry bout that, but you did kind of call me out before.

The "advice" is not about getting laid, I mean you could use it in that way if you want. Its about becoming desirable to girls, thats it. A girl usually has to be attracted to the guy before they can date. So in a way this "advice" definitely helps you meet girls that want relationships. Or if they didn't before, they will once they've met you.


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## tomcoldaba (Jul 1, 2007)

mountain5 said:


> I think we're better off going to Toastmasters or taking a Dale Carnegie course than reading dating books targeted toward a young male audience. Learning confidence and basic dating skills doesn't mean twisting your personality to fit some archetype of an 'alpha male.'


I am active in Toastmasters. You can meet your mate at club meetings. So it not only builds confidence and good communication skills but you may even meet your mate. I know three couples who met at Toastmaster meetings. Remember it is not a dating service but an environment to improve your communication skills. Good communication skills leads to confidence.


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## tiberius (Feb 9, 2007)

15. Will not manipulate you for sex
Women know men want sex, period. There is nothing wrong with showing your sexual interest. _It's not manipulation, it's seducing! Nice guys often mix these two._ The common misconception they have is that they're somehow bad for wanting to have sex with a woman. This idea has been injected to them by their environment, parents, religion, culture etc.


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