# The artful seducer



## davemason2k (Feb 11, 2005)

Guys, read this article and tell me what you think about it. The psychology part about women is interesting.

Erik Von Markovik, aka the pickup master "Mystery," chats about the "Venusian Arts," sexual psychology and why he can help 40-year-old virgins everywhere get laid.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/0 ... print.html


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

I admit I didn't read all of the article. That is because things like this just fuel my hatred of society and how guys seemingly have to "play the game" just to get laid. 

I say **** that! I want love, not lust. I don't want to "pickup girls", I want a loving relationship. 

Why does everything regarding dating and sex need to be about "the game"? I swear I was meant to be born in the 1930s.


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## mserychic (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



PGVan said:


> I admit I didn't read all of the article. That is because things like this just fuel my hatred of society and how guys seemingly have to "play the game" just to get laid.
> 
> I say **** that! I want love, not lust. I don't want to "pickup girls", I want a loving relationship.
> 
> Why does everything regarding dating and sex need to be about "the game"? I swear I was meant to be born in the 1930s.


I'll share my time machine with you. I couldn't get past the first page. Is sex it really worth mind ****ing someone?!


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## leppardess (Nov 8, 2003)

Is this guy for real?? Did you see the pic of him? :um :lol I'm sorry but anyone who dresses like that... it's hard to take them seriously. If I met some guy dressed like that, I'd avoid him like the plague... :hide



PGVan said:


> Why does everything regarding dating and sex need to be about "the game"? I swear I was meant to be born in the 1930s.


I'm in total agreement with you there. I've never 'played the game' and have no intentions of starting. If people would just be genuine with each other, there would be no need for game playing.

As to the article, if a guy feels that he needs to 'psyche' me out in order to get me into bed... that's just not right.


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## Lyric Suite (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



PGVan said:


> I want love, not lust.


All well and good but most girls don't want love, they want a lustful 'playa'.

As for blaming everything on 'society', we used to live in a world where love was the most important thing, back in the dark ages (AKA, the 50s), but people think we are so much more enlightened today, who am i to disagree?


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



PGVan said:


> I admit I didn't read all of the article. That is because things like this just fuel my hatred of society and how guys seemingly have to "play the game" just to get laid.
> 
> I say **** that! I want love, not lust. I don't want to "pickup girls", I want a loving relationship.
> 
> Why does everything regarding dating and sex need to be about "the game"? I swear I was meant to be born in the 1930s.


Unfortunately, we have to realize that how society is doesn't match what we want society to be.

We live in a sexist world where you have to play your gender role in order to survive.


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*

Sadly, lots of guys fall for this pick-up artist stuff, especially shy guys, guys with low self-esteem, etc. It's usually only temporary, though.



PGVan said:


> That is because things like this just fuel my hatred of society and how guys seemingly have to "play the game" just to get laid.


It pisses me off because it's not even that true. Not all women are expecting to be "played". My main concern is that this kind of stuff might warp the mindsets of some guys, which may have already been affected by low self-esteem and such. You know, some shy dorky guy looking stupid, forcing himself to act a way that he isn't.



> These are just a few of Mystery's unexplainable accouterments. But Mystery says he knows just what he's doing. He calls his look "peacocking" -- and explains that it's a way of capturing women's attention, to intrigue and, ultimately, sleep with them


See guys. Don't sweat it any longer! You just have to master peacocking. Then you'll get laid, dude! That's what it's all about!


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## segeta (Jun 1, 2005)

Yeah, I'd be sure to copy this guy if he weren't such an objectionable halfwit. Maybe that's what we all need to do - become a damned idiots.


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## Lyric Suite (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



BeNice said:


> Sadly, lots of guys fall for this pick-up artist stuff,


They fall for it because it works. Now i know what you are going to say, but you are wrong. It does work. No matter how disgusting those guys may appear to you, it's obviously that the rest of the female population doesn't share your point of view. If they did, they wouldn't be falling for those 'pick-up artists' on such a regular and consistent basis.

The real caveat is that you can't learn to be a pick-up artist, you have to be born into one. This is why sites like those are useless and the reason shy guys are bound to get the short end of the stick no matter how hard they try.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

Lyric Suite, you just peed on my wheaties!


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## dez (Jun 25, 2005)

> Now he's starring in his very own reality-TV series, "The Pick-up Artist," premiering Aug. 6 on VH1. There, with the help of his wingmen, Matador and J Dog, Mystery plans to fix the luck of a 40-year-old virgin and seven other hapless Don Juans.


I'd like to see this reality tv series, hilarious.


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



Lyric Suite said:


> BeNice said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly, lots of guys fall for this pick-up artist stuff,
> ...


Actually, I think it probably does work for some guys. But, like you mentioned, they probably already had the potential to begin with.

I am a shy guy, but I believe at least somewhat that I will meet someone, fall in love someday. Honestly, I just think I'm not in the right stage right now and I'm too immature in a way.


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## person86 (Aug 10, 2006)

How about developing basic social skills before diving into the whole 'PUA' thing?


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

The name 'pick up artist' really should be changed. This isn't about picking up women, it's about picking up yourself. Here's something to consider, the goal here is to meet women. Not sleep with them. Sure, that would be an ultimate step, but that is not the idea. Unfortunately some of those guys who *consider themselves* 'pick up artists' are out there to get laid.



leppardess said:


> I'm sorry but anyone who dresses like that... it's hard to take them seriously.


Keep this in mind, he doesn't WANT you to take him seriously. He wants you to have fun with him. Open your mind, relax and take it in. Why does he look like that? To stand out. He's not like all the other guys. It's about being creative and unique. He's being himself. We are all different, aren't we?



vicente said:


> We live in a sexist world where you have to play your gender role in order to survive.


What's wrong with playing a gender role? I want a girl to be a girl. And I would be pretty sure most girls would say they want a man to be a man. That's not sexist, people have their set of standards. Realistically, 'playing' is the wrong word. Be yourself.

Lets face facts, most guys and girls are attracted to confident, secure people. Being yourself IS confidence. That's why so many people give off this fake persona because they don't lack confidence in themselves. Again, the goal here for many of these guys is to first discover and accept themselves. And THEN they can be themselves which will naturally portray confidence.

Dress, scent, and taste all play a minor role of course and I think we can all tweak things here and there which effect physical appearance; but the key is to respect, understand, and love yourself and people around you will love being with you. As said before the 'pick up artist' name needs to be changed because I think it gets the reputation of playing magic tricks on girls which is not the case.


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## sean88 (Apr 29, 2006)

His show is cool. I'm watching it right now. =D


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



Airick10 said:


> The name 'pick up artist' really should be changed. This isn't about picking up women, it's about picking up yourself. Here's something to consider, the goal here is to meet women. Not sleep with them. Sure, that would be an ultimate step, but that is not the idea. Unfortunately some of those guys who *consider themselves* 'pick up artists' are out there to get laid.


I disagree. The name "pickup artist" IS about picking up women and sleeping with them.



Airick10 said:


> What's wrong with playing a gender role? I want a girl to be a girl. And I would be pretty sure most girls would say they want a man to be a man. That's not sexist, people have their set of standards. Realistically, 'playing' is the wrong word. Be yourself.


"Playing" is the right word. Why do you think dating in today's society is referred to as "the game"?

Being myself is being quiet and staying away from people, especially large groups (ie: clubs). The "be yourself" advice is among the most overrated advice I have seen. Every morning, I wake up and I am being myself. Where does it have me at 23 years old? Nowhere.

By "gender role", he means that in today's society, a young man is expected to sleep with as many girls as possible. Relationships and love are seemingly not a priority among young people. If you can't see that attitude in society, you're blind to it.



Airick10 said:


> Lets face facts, most guys and girls are attracted to confident, secure people. Being yourself IS confidence. That's why so many people give off this fake persona because they don't lack confidence in themselves. Again, the goal here for many of these guys is to first discover and accept themselves. And THEN they can be themselves which will naturally portray confidence.


If it was all about accepting myself, then I should have girls flocking for me. I am fine with who I am. I am just sick, disgusted and depressed over how society today does not have room for quiet and not-so-outgoing individuals.

A picture is not always worth a thousand words. Sometimes it is what it is.


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## aviator99 (Nov 23, 2006)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



PGVan said:


> "Playing" is the right word. Why do you think dating in today's society is referred to as "the game"?


Funny thing is, that guys book, The Game, by Neil Strauss, is one of the New York time best sellers IIRC. Disappointing news.

IMO, if you read a book on 'The Game' of the dating world, and you apply the tactics and methods you've learned, all that 'Be Yourself' theology is out the window.

'That book taught me to act smooth, cocky in some scenarios, and throw some pickup lines at the ladies, then reel em' in'. So you catch a girl, and it turns into a relationship. IMO, you already built the relationship on false pretenses, or a bunch of BS. You're not really a smooth, cocky person, which may be the kind of character that appeals to this girl. Once she gets to know your true self, and 'The Game' is over (because you won, or, won the girl already), she may no longer be interested.

Be yourself, but wait, learn 'pickup' techniques, and be someone else. Maybe thats why theres nearly a 50% divorce rate in this country.

I too wakeup in the morning and i'm myself. For whatever reason, i'm just not the kind of person into the whole clubbing/bar/social/party scenes. I've had invitations to go to parties with people I know and i've turned them all down.

But maybe if I apply the strategies outlined in the book, i'll go to the party, as someone who exudes confidence, power and control, then I get a girl. So we leave, and my fasad of BS strategies is out the window. Will she still like me, for the person I truly am?

I doubt it.

The pickup skills are built for picking up 1 night stands, not for building relationships, of which many of us SA'rs are looking for.


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## davemason2k (Feb 11, 2005)

Well, I watched the show on VH1 last night and it was pretty funny. The thing I got from it was, confidence attracts women (Duh). Forget about pickup lines and attempting to sleep with everyone part. The key is confidence. With confidence you can have a longterm relationship or do what this guy was doing. That's always been my problem and the main reason I'm sitting here right now. I walk up to a girl and I freeze and end up grinning like a little dork with nothing to say. After a while they get uncomfortable and are totally turned off. Happens everytime. 

Some of the things this guy does may seem lame, but I'm interested in hearing what he does to break the ice and how he starts conversations and keeps them going. Lets face it, girls don't want a guy who's always unsure of himself. That's why shy people can't "be themselves". How many times have you heard that advice? Sure, it's easy to "be yourself" when you're smooth and can talk to any random person on the street without getting nervous, but "being yourself" when you have SA is a death warrant.

I'm gonna watch next week though and see if this method can be used in a normal place, like a grocery store. He could pick up drunk girls at nightclubs, but it's not gonna be that easy in regular day spots IMO. lol anyways...


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*

I think you guys are missing the point here. What is attractive? Confidence, being secure with yourself, and liking who you are. When I say be yourself, I mean accept yourself for who you are. If you portray yourself as depressed, sad, hate yourself then of course that's going to be a turnoff. It's not that the whole 'be yourself' advice is overrated, it is often misinterpreted. Here's an example -



aviator99 said:


> 'That book taught me to act smooth, cocky in some scenarios, and throw some pickup lines at the ladies, then reel em' in'. So you catch a girl, and it turns into a relationship. IMO, you already built the relationship on false pretenses, or a bunch of BS. You're not really a smooth, cocky person, which may be the kind of character that appeals to this girl. Once she gets to know your true self, and 'The Game' is over (because you won, or, won the girl already), she may no longer be interested.


The problem is 'acting' smooth and cocky. Throw some pickup lines. Listen guys, girls have heard this stuff. They are more aware of this then you realize. Reading this book is not to give you a detailed sketched out plan on an approach. It gives you a different way of thinking as far as starting up a conversation without being handcuffed in a depressed state. Guys will read this and take what is in there literally and try and mirror the tactics. The idea is to show you a way to grab someone's attention, it's about being creative and unique. When I say be yourself, I mean approach a girl accepting you for who you are and grab her attention. It's not meant to be looked at word for word.

As I mentioned in my previous post, yes there are those who call themselves 'pick up artists' who are trying to sleep with women. That's where you may see 'The Game' being played. And believe it or not, women play the game too. That's society. I will agree with PGVan that society is focused on how successful you are with the opposite sex especially at a young age, but those who are comfortable with themselves are very likable by other people.


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## Futures (Aug 27, 2005)

I watched the show last night as well and I was hooked. I think the show could possibly provide us with a lot of tips to help improve ourselves. However, I don't expect it to really change my situation in the least.

I remember the part where he said you should never open with asking what their name is. I thought that was pretty good advice, but the more I thought about it, I was puzzled as to what you can say before that. I guess you're supposed to find something about them and comment on that to start the conversation, but as I was watching that, I tried to put myself in their shoes and think "ok, now what would I say to that girl?" I couldn't think of anything. Thinking fast on my feet has never been one of my strong points. My mind was frozen just the same way it was for a few of those guys on the show at that given moment.


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## opivy22 (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



aviator99 said:


> PGVan said:
> 
> 
> > "Playing" is the right word. Why do you think dating in today's society is referred to as "the game"?
> ...


Don't forget that The Rules for women is also up there in the top sellers lists =] Guys aren't the only ones playing to win here.

BTW that book is really creepy. Stuff like "never call him or return his calls", "NEVER go dutch - always make him pay", and advice on training men to call for dates early in the week. Pretty much equally manipulative.


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## opivy22 (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



aviator99 said:


> PGVan said:
> 
> 
> > "Playing" is the right word. Why do you think dating in today's society is referred to as "the game"?
> ...


Don't forget that The Rules for women is also up there in the top sellers lists =] Guys aren't the only ones playing to win here.

BTW that book is really creepy. Stuff like "never call him or return his calls", "NEVER go dutch - always make him pay", and advice on training men to call for dates early in the week. Pretty much equally manipulative.

The only good thing about this book is reading it let me know which women are playing by its rules so I may promptly give them the boot.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

Absolutely opivy22. I can probably get into why society is at this stage but I don't care to really flame out this thread


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## davemason2k (Feb 11, 2005)

Airick10, I agree with you, but like Futures said... When you are quiet and not a quick thinker (smooth talker) during conversations, there's a lot of akward silent moments where ,at least for me, you just get more anxious and uncertain what to do, which in turn makes the girl uncomfortable. Pickup lines are lame, but I seriously think I would do much better if I had some sort of script to play off or maybe some set rules of what to do in akward situations.


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## davemason2k (Feb 11, 2005)

Futures, yeah I thought the same when he said "don't ask for her name at first". I seriously have no idea what to say or ask a girl when you first meet them. Between freezing up and my trouble with eye contact I'm a trainwreck. I think the only way I could successfully meet and hold a conversation with a girl in a bar would be if we were both drunk off our butts. But, when you sober up your real personality comes out and it's back to square 1 anyways, so what's the point? I guess one night stands are better than nothing. lol I agree though. While we can probably pick up a few pointers from this show, I know it won't help me out any.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



davemason2k said:


> Pickup lines are lame, but I seriously think I would do much better if I had some sort of script to play off or maybe some set rules of what to do in akward situations.


Again, I think you're insulting women's intelligence. They can see right through a script. It's not easy, but something right there on the spot... a splash of YOU works. They've heard lame scripts since they were 13.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



Airick10 said:


> I think you guys are missing the point here. What is attractive? Confidence, being secure with yourself, and liking who you are. When I say be yourself, I mean accept yourself for who you are.


And like I said, every morning when I get up, I am who I am. I don't publically portray the depression, sadness and loneliness I really feel. Nobody I know personally knows about my depression. I am simply a quiet person without much to say in public.

If being myself was so attractive, why am I 23 years old and have never so much as held a girl's hand? Confidence alone is not what attracts the opposite sex.



davemason2k said:


> I think the only way I could successfully meet and hold a conversation with a girl in a bar would be if we were both drunk off our butts.


I'm with you here. When I have a good 6-pack or more in my system (in other words, pissed f'ing drunk), depending on the setting, sometimes I become the kind of person that is naturally outgoing when sober. However, this doesn't do us any good as becoming an alcoholic can't be good in any way.


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## Futures (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



PGVan said:


> If being myself was so attractive, why am I 23 years old and have never so much as held a girl's hand? Confidence alone is not what attracts the opposite sex.


 :agree

Being myself means continuing to sit in my room behind a computer screen and watch life pass me by. That will never get me laid. At some point, I have to try and be something more, even if it's BS. If you actually establish something with a girl, then perhaps you can work your way back to being yourself, while making a few sacrifices along the way to keep things from crumbling. After all, they always say relationship are about compromise. But the point I'm making is you have to step out of that comfort zone to make things happen.

And IMO, confidence is not the biggest component here. The most important thing is being a great conversationalist. I've said it before on it, but I have a distant buddy of mine who pulls in chicks left and right. He's not the greatest looking dude around, but he can talk to anyone at anytime about anything.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



PGVan said:


> If being myself was so attractive, why am I 23 years old and have never so much as held a girl's hand? Confidence alone is not what attracts the opposite sex.


I know the feeling, I've had no experience either. But confidence really is the key. Of course it's not the only thing. I can run a mile long race with a wooden leg, but I have a much better chance with two good legs.



Futures said:


> The most important thing is being a great conversationalist. I've said it before on it, but I have a distant buddy of mine who pulls in chicks left and right.


Well you can't really be a good conversationalist if you don't have confidence in what you are saying and how you are saying it. Keep in mind, most of the message that you're sending to someone when you're talking to them is not coming out of your mouth. It's body language and being comfortable with yourself.

Obviously you have to go out and try and meet people in order to gain attraction. Yes, I wake up every morning as a 27 year old with a pretty boring day ahead too. No woman is going to walk through my door. For those guys out there who are going out to meet new people, those who are most comfortable with themselves will probably be the most successful.


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## davemason2k (Feb 11, 2005)

My goal is to be the Brad Pitt of SA people. hahah All I have to do is be take nervousnous and shyness to a unbeliveable level to the point that ladies fall all over me.

Seriously though, confidence and knowing what to say are both key. If I feel comfortable talking with a girl I gain confidence, if I don't I lose confidence. I remember when I used to work at a grocery store in high school. Several times I would start talking to a girl and then have no clue what to discuss next. Then I would get nervous and after that my confidence tanked and I would have trouble talking with them ever again. I'm jealous of these guys who on the spot can think of clever things to say. It makes everyone feel at ease.


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## Lyric Suite (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



Airick10 said:


> Again, I think you're insulting women's intelligence. They can see right through a script. It's not easy, but something right there on the spot... a splash of YOU works. They've heard lame scripts since they were 13.


I think you are over-estimating women's intelligence.


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## mserychic (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



Lyric Suite said:


> Airick10 said:
> 
> 
> > Again, I think you're insulting women's intelligence. They can see right through a script. It's not easy, but something right there on the spot... a splash of YOU works. They've heard lame scripts since they were 13.
> ...


Well of course. I know I'm so dim witted I fall for "hey baby what's your sign" every time.


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## barnabas (Apr 24, 2007)

_The Game_? _The Rules_? Wha?

This is why I stay away from self-help/inspirational books. At best, they... crack me up in a sad way.


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## Vincenzo (Sep 24, 2005)

Using cynical seduction skills on an attractive woman does actually require some level of skill, and the stuff about hot chicks being constantly hit on is not a myth. Whenever attractive women used to ***** about constantly being approached by guys flirting with them, I basically laughed in their faces and told them to stop whining, but I've learned that it really does happen to the point of being intolerable. I used to work alongside this girl who was like model material, and the amount of male customers of all ages who would force her to partake in awkward, protracted flirting sessions with them was unreal.


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## Lyric Suite (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



mserychic said:


> Well of course. I know I'm so dim witted I fall for "hey baby what's your sign" every time.


Yes, and i'm sure you represent the rule, and not the exception.

Ho wait, this is why the grand majority of women date those so called pick up artists on a regular basis. Am i missing something here?


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## opivy22 (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



davemason2k said:


> Futures, yeah I thought the same when he said "don't ask for her name at first". I seriously have no idea what to say or ask a girl when you first meet them. Between freezing up and my trouble with eye contact I'm a trainwreck. I think the only way I could successfully meet and hold a conversation with a girl in a bar would be if we were both drunk off our butts. But, when you sober up your real personality comes out and it's back to square 1 anyways, so what's the point? I guess one night stands are better than nothing. lol I agree though. While we can probably pick up a few pointers from this show, I know it won't help me out any.


I've been reading quite a lot into the how to succeed with women and pickup stuff in the last few months and there is a really great "rule" exactly for this situation. Its called the 90/10 rule - one in which in the first few moments after going up to her you do 90% of the talking and let her do 10%. The thing is what you say doesn't matter so much as the fact that you're willing to walk up and try.

Well, having something to talk about is important so they suggest stuff like asking for a woman's opinion on something. Lately I've been using the story of a guy from work that went from working a second job at a gay bar, to meeting a girl and deciding they were going to get married in two weeks, to deciding he was moving across the country when she finishes boot camp (she hasn't even left for boot camp yet!). Really anything like that works though - the point is to just have a good story/something you want input on and run with it to break the ice.

The 90/10 rule is also about using those first few moments to convey your personality to her.


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## opivy22 (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



Futures said:


> Being myself means continuing to sit in my room behind a computer screen and watch life pass me by. That will never get me laid. At some point, I have to try and be something more, even if it's BS.


Great thing is you're perfectly able to see what the issue is. Before you can do well with women you need to have your own life under control, then you will be naturally attractive to women. I really don't think there is a way to successfully apply a veneer of having your life under control and get away with it for long. One of the first points in 'pickup artist' material is that before anything else, you must have a fulfilling life yourself.


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## opivy22 (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



mserychic said:


> Well of course. I know I'm so dim witted I fall for "hey baby what's your sign" every time.


That one actually works if said in a satirical way :lol


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



opivy22 said:


> Great thing is you're perfectly able to see what the issue is. Before you can do well with women you need to have your own life under control, then you will be naturally attractive to women. I really don't think there is a way to successfully apply a veneer of having your life under control and get away with it for long. One of the first points in 'pickup artist' material is that before anything else, you must have a fulfilling life yourself.


 :agree

This is right on the money. Opivy, the 90/10 rule that you spoke about and mserychic's comment both 'work'. Anything CAN work as long as it's put together sincerely and coming from YOU, not some book. Opivy - you don't even need to explain the 90/10 rule, your point of saying all that matters is that you try is right on. You talk and you show the girl that you are not intimidated by her.



Lyric Suite said:


> Ho wait, this is why the grand majority of women date those so called pick up artists on a regular basis. Am i missing something here?


Yes. Two things, I certainly don't consider many guys at all to be 'pick up artists'. And also you are missing the fact that women date guys who ask them out. Sounds silly, but a woman is not going to go out with you if you don't approach her.

I'm not a pick up artist, I have a very hard time talking to women. If I do talk to girl, I mumble, I look down, I tremble a little bit and perhaps even stutter. This against a confident, secure guy who speaks up, looks her straight in the eye, has a relaxed stance that puts her at ease that she can feel safe around him. I ask a girl out, the second guy asks the same girl out. Who wins? It's not about the words you use or the script you write. It's about believing in yourself that SHE is worth YOUR time.


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## Sad_ape (May 26, 2007)

If a girl finds me attractive (not all that often but it has happened to me) and I think likewise and gives me a hint then I just naturally turn smooth. I don't think of anything else at the time really. I don't chase girls though. I've been in a few relationships and I've never chased a girl or asked them to date me or anything. I prefer to just let it happen when it happens (not all that often, like I've said. Probably never again considering my life circumstances now)


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

I am slightly embarrassed to say that I have actually spent over £1000 on one of these schools 'bootcamps' when I was really under the weather.

The thing I found was that all the guys there basically had personality and a lot to offer - all they DIDNT DO was go and say hi in the first place. Once they actually started going up and saying hello it was relatively easy for them, and after the initial anxiety peak when making the approach, mostly they began to relax. This is pretty much the key - if you sit alone in the bar and dont try, you will not get anywhere. If you actually try, your chances get a lot better.

Personally I found that the techniques tripped me up. There are one or two good lessons to learn about having self respect and not investing all of your self esteem in the result of how one girl reacts to you, but by and large its about learning to have the confidence to go and put 'yourself' out there.

Open statement to no-one in particular: Of course you will still be rejected and thats something to learn to deal with - but IMO if you have BAD SA then you need to deal with that BEFORE you start training to become a PUA. Otherwise you really are fooling yourself. *Scoring with women is NOT the cure to your self esteem issues you think it is.*

Ross


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## daaaaave (Jan 1, 2007)

Ross is dead-on IMO. You just have to get the guts to approach, then be yourself.


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## IcedOver (Feb 26, 2007)

I assume that a lot of you guys have watched VH1's "The Pick-Up Artist" which Mystery hosts. I don't want to start a new topic so I'll just post my thoughts about it on this forum. 

I thought this show was very corny at first and still find the idea of using stupid pick-up lines to attract women to be ridiculous (what woman would actually be attracted to that crap?). But what's great about the show is how relatable the guys are to us older virgin or female-inept losers. I feel for them. Kosmo is especially interesting. He's the best-looking guy of the bunch by far and yet he freezes up the most around women. He has a barrier within himself which it's hard for him to cross and on the most recent episode it was really neat to see him just say "F it" and walk over to the girls in the pool even though he was uncomfortable. He just let go of his anxiety. 

One thing that Mystery makes clear on the show is that his formula of picking up women isn't just about "getting chicks". It's about building a life of confidence, breaking down your personal barriers and feeling comfortable with yourself. I don't agree with his methods but I do like the sentiment behind them and behind the show. What would be cool is if women would watch this show and others like it (the plethora of inept guy entertainment in the past few years -- "Beauty and the Geek", "The 40-Year-Old Virgin", among others) and possibly change their opinion about shy, inexperienced guys and give them a chance.

Sidebar: The show gave us loser guys a new nickname -- "A.F.C.s" -- "Average Frustrated Chumps".


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

So give it a try. There are many many books, dvd's, webistes out there where you can learn the 'techniques' and meet others that want to do it too. You wont get 24 hour one-on-one direction like in The PickUp Artist, but hey, go show us it can be done.

Ross


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## Avilos (Jul 7, 2005)

This guy embarrass me as a fellow male and frankly as a fellow Human being!

I saw a little bit of his show and I read his wiki bio. Mystery is SUCH a Geek! Still is too. The medallions he hands out are right out of a role playing game. 

These are the type of things a geeky guy does to impress other geeky guys. I not sure I could have any interest or respect for a woman who falls for this .


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## daaaaave (Jan 1, 2007)

I think in real life Mystery is very manipulative, but on the show he has toned it down to present a better image. He really does appear to be helping those guys out. I think the canned questions are dumb, but it just goes to show how you just need to initiate a conversation to get somewhere.


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## davemason2k (Feb 11, 2005)

I've watched every episode so far and here's why I think it stinks. Sure, I understand the "set", which is based a scripted bit to start a conversation, but what the heck do you do after that? If it was me I would be asking dorky questions like "so, you like pizza?" That's the problem. Eventually you have to be good at conversation skills to go anywhere.


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## Avilos (Jul 7, 2005)

The show tries to make it seem like Mystery is some humanitarian! That this is a "life affirming journey to manhood" for these guys. :lol :sus 

That seems to be the trend with a lot of Reality Shows these days. Giving them a veneer of respectability and that these things are positive and uplifting!

Because more and more people are embarrassed to admit they watch these shows. So selling each as "feel good entertainment" has become a necessity. Even if it not really accurate.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Are they using 'The Vensuian Arts' ? Mystery wrote a several hundred page theory on getting women into bed, so I wonder if they have mentioned that part? 

Ross


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## Zen Mechanics (Aug 3, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> *Scoring with women is NOT the cure to your self esteem issues you think it is.*
> 
> Ross


yeah, if anything it makes it worse cos the whole time you're thinking "why is she with me, is she gonna dump me for someone better? i suck" etc etc.


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## Johnny1234 (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: re: The artful seducer*



Sad_ape said:


> If a girl finds me attractive (not all that often but it has happened to me) and I think likewise and gives me a hint then I just naturally turn smooth. I don't think of anything else at the time really. I don't chase girls though. I've been in a few relationships and I've never chased a girl or asked them to date me or anything. I prefer to just let it happen when it happens (not all that often, like I've said. Probably never again considering my life circumstances now)


Are you my twin?

Look I understand that many of you think that one night stands are "bad" but I disagree. I like the whole PUA thing, maybe because I am able to naturally use it when I know the girl is attracted to me. But using PUA methods to get laid is not wrong at all. And a relationship could be built as well.


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## LoverBoy (May 9, 2007)

This journey that some people take is supposed to be about becoming more social, learning how to have fun, building your self esteem and confidence, and becoming a better person. It is not about learning some magic tricks to get a gurls panties to stick on your wall because she is so turned on by your POOOOAAHHHH techniques. 

Most guys already know what they need to succeed or just need to be tweeked. 

Wear cool clothes
Get a cool haircut
Get cologne that smells nice
Know your fashion
Workout
Take care of your hygiene and grooming
Stay positive
Smile
Approach as many people as you can
Go out everyday
Be Fun
Get fun social hobbies
Work the venues
Be a Value Guy

This stuff is just supposed to help you out.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

LoverBoy said:


> This journey that some people take is supposed to be about becoming more social, learning how to have fun, building your self esteem and confidence, and becoming a better person. It is not about learning some magic tricks to get a gurls panties to stick on your wall because she is so turned on by your POOOOAAHHHH techniques.


Exactly! This is why I don't like the term 'pickup artist'. Because it's not about picking up girls, it's about picking up yourself and building your confidence. THAT's what girls are into, not some silly magic line. It's not what you say, it's how you say it.


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## njodis (Nov 8, 2006)

Well, from what little I've read of the "sosuave" forums, the so-called pickup artists are into one thing only: manipulating women in order to sleep with as many of them as possible. Maybe I just read the wrong forum, but that's pretty much all I saw there. I haven't seen the show you guys are talking about, but it sure sounds like they're portraying this in a way different light than it should be.

There is _some_ good stuff to learn there, but a lot of it is pretty gross. Sure, it is definitely a good thing to learn how to build self confidence, but that seems to be only a small part of this pick-up artist crap. These people really do treat it like a game, and treat women as if they're some kind of target or prize. It's really all about manipulation.

I'm not trying to be holier than thou; I truly just think this pick-up artist stuff is repugnant.


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## Johnny1234 (Nov 16, 2006)

I tivoed some episodes and the show looks very good. I had no clue on what to do in a club cuz im young and have never been to one, and now I kind of have a sense what its all about. And mystery is not a geek, because he can pretty much get any woman, and there is nothing wrong with a little manipulation. I liked it when he said to the asain guy that left after 2 episodes "You are not a special snowflake, we are all just as nervous." So you guys can either sti here and complain aboout how you think mystery is a geek or that his tactis are immoral, but it wont help you with your love life for sure. I for one, think he is brilliant.


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

Wow, my post was deleted. Let's just let him speak for himself.


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## B-Dog (Dec 19, 2003)

njodis said:


> Well, from what little I've read of the "sosuave" forums, the so-called pickup artists are into one thing only: manipulating women in order to sleep with as many of them as possible.


I think it just started out as getting laid, if thats all they are using it for then for shame. Since in that aspect it does look rather shady fricken AMS assholes. The PUA show brings it out to another level, puts the application not in just this gimmick for meeting women to having the confidence in your person to help you get ahead in life. I seriously want to be on the next season of that show to maybe get some confidence in myself that sticks. Im not navie, it seems pretty genuine. Though if I got on it I think I would end up being like the 1st guy that left becuase he couldn't do it.

Like I felt like giving up on it and as a last hurrah I drove 2hrs away to a town where I knew nobody so I could just be open and normal I went to bars and things becuase I will never see anyone from here ever again. I still froze up, I had nothing to lose. Yet I did nothing and thats frustrating to me, I would love to just be open and form social bonds with people weather they last a few hours, days or who knows even longer. Im not out to get laid but im tired of being single and having no hope of getting out. That show and the attitude how they portray it is for guys like me. I just don't have anyone but myself to force me to try.

-B


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