# Vitamin B12 for depression?



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

When i was given an intramuscular injection of vitamin b12 I felt a postive sense of well being. Can depression or anxiety cause a deficiency of vitamin b12 in the blood?


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## Catlover4100 (Feb 10, 2009)

B12 is associated with increased energy, and can help allieviate mild cases of depression. It's a very important vitamin for all kinds of things. I don't think that anxiety or depression can cause a B12 deficiency, but a B12 deficiency can cause depression, and possibly anxiety. There are only about a dozen documented cases of B12 deficiency from inadequate nutrition, nearly all cases are due to malabsorption, which often results from decreased production of intrinsic factor. Due to this, regular supplements in pill form usually aren't enough for people with a B12 deficiency, so patches, injections, and sublingual forms are usually prescribed.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

The injections are very good and popular with bodybuilders for increased energy.


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## VeggieGirl (Dec 11, 2009)

I take a B vitamin tablet everyday, it has seemed to help me with energy and feeling more positive.


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> When i was given an intramuscular injection of vitamin b12 I felt a postive sense of well being. Can depression or anxiety cause a deficiency of vitamin b12 in the blood?


Do you get enough sulfur in your diet ? Just try eating some onions. Just try it!


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I wouldn't megadose vitamins/minerals for mood purposes, just take a regular amount unless you're deficient.



ju_pa said:


> Do you get enough sulfur in your diet ? Just try eating some onions. Just try it!


I read somewhere that onions have antidepressant effects, heh.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

ju_pa said:


> Do you get enough sulfur in your diet ? Just try eating some onions. Just try it!


 yep, its all the worrying that got me anemic.


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> yep, its all the worrying that got me anemic.


I think you are vegeterian.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

ju_pa said:


> I think you are vegeterian.


 I get jokes.  seriously this is my diet im not sure what other reason i would be vitamin b12 anemic.

*A-*Almonds and Other Nuts
*B*-Beans and other legumes
*S*-Spinach and other green vegetables
*D*-Dairy Products
*I*-Instant Oatmeal, Ice cream
*E*-Eggs
*T*-Turkey and other lean meats
*P*-Peanut Butter
*O*-Olive Oil
*W*-Whole Grain Breads and cereals
*E*-Extra Protein (Whey) Protein powder
*R*-Raspberries and other berries 
__________________


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> I get jokes.  seriously this is my diet im not sure what other reason i would be vitamin b12 anemic.
> 
> *A-*Almonds and Other Nuts
> *B*-Beans and other legumes
> ...


Oh you are low only on B12 and not Anemic AND b12 deficient ? Have you done tests to prove your vitamin deficiency ?

Red meats usually but as we produce B12 in our own bodies, you might consider that an option. B12 is produced by the bacteria in our colons.

" It is plausible that some humans have B12-producing bacteria in significant amounts while other humans do not."
Source: http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/int

So it's possible that you might be low on B12 producing bacteria. Start making your own kefir. Get the grains. I can send them but you might find them faster from your own country. 
http://www.torontoadvisors.com/Kefir/kefir-list.php


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## VeggieGirl (Dec 11, 2009)

Eating meat or not eating meat is not the problem at all.
I have lived on a vegetarian/vegan diet my whole life and I am very healthy and its been proven to be one of the healthiest diets you can choose.
After all as humans we are NOT meant to be eating flesh.

I was actually just reading an article about vitamin B and how important it is to take vitamin B tablets and I agree with it totally. They have helped me with alot of things and one of the main qualities of the vitamin B tablets is that they help fight depression and anxiety. If you have too much in the body, the body just gets rid of it anyway so don't worry about having too much.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

VeggieGirl said:


> Eating meat or not eating meat is not the problem at all.
> I have lived on a vegetarian/vegan diet my whole life and I am very healthy and its been proven to be one of the healthiest diets you can choose.
> After all as humans we are NOT meant to be eating flesh.
> 
> I was actually just reading an article about vitamin B and how important it is to take vitamin B tablets and I agree with it totally. They have helped me with alot of things and one of the main qualities of the vitamin B tablets is that they help fight depression and anxiety. If you have too much in the body, the body just gets rid of it anyway so don't worry about having too much.


I have to disagree with this post, the diet humans have evolved on is a sort of keto diet (primary meat) and sometimes lots of fruit to stock up energy for the winter.
Many health benefits of keto and low carb diets have been shown too.


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## Phibes (Mar 8, 2009)

Early humans would have fed upon far more grains, fruits, and vegetables than meat.

You should think of meat as a birthday cake type treat for occasions, or just cut it out completely. 

Even when I was a vegetarian my B12 levels were fine. 

Go get a blood test done to see if you are deficient in the B12 - Folate. I should have done so before I wasted money on some cyanocobalamin pills.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Phibes said:


> Early humans would have fed upon far more grains, fruits, and vegetables than meat.
> 
> Meat isn't essential to our well-being.
> 
> ...


Humans started eating grains 100.000 years ago, thats nothing in terms of evolution.


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

Phibes said:


> Early humans would have fed upon far more grains, fruits, and vegetables than meat.
> 
> Meat isn't essential to our well-being.
> 
> ...


Grains ? You mean as Egyptians did some thousand years back with wheat ? These are not early humans (lots of mummies with heart failures). But lets look at least 100 000 years back for early humans. Early Humans did meat meat and meat, mostly raw, and in scarcity they ate fruits.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

ju_pa said:


> Grains ? You mean as Egyptians did some thousand years back with wheat ? These are not early humans (lots of mummies with heart failures). But lets look at least 100 000 years back for early humans. Early Humans did meat meat and meat, mostly raw, and in scarcity they ate fruits.


Exactly


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## Catlover4100 (Feb 10, 2009)

ju_pa said:


> Grains ? You mean as Egyptians did some thousand years back with wheat ? These are not early humans (lots of mummies with heart failures). But lets look at least 100 000 years back for early humans. Early Humans did meat meat and meat, mostly raw, and in scarcity they ate fruits.


Seriously, that's your argument? Where are you getting this information about what "early humans" ate? Secondly, just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. Do some research, and let's at least _try_ to be intelligent.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Catlover4100 said:


> Seriously, that's your argument? Where are you getting this information about what "early humans" ate? Secondly, just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. Do some research, and let's at least _try_ to be intelligent.


Its well known that early humans eat mostly meat and fruit certain periods a year.

If you want research regarding the beneficial effects of keto diets, you can look at this site.
http://www.apinchofhealth.com/resources/lowcarb/low-carb-research.html


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

Catlover4100 said:


> Seriously, that's your argument? Where are you getting this information about what "early humans" ate? Secondly, just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. Do some research, and let's at least _try_ to be intelligent.


Yes, I do think that you are intelligent but I also think that you are the result of vegetable and high fat propaganda. Nothing to be shy of as I was too.

Not only does the research tell you that low carb diet is healthy and cholesterol fear from meat is another propaganda, but you will also find that out after you start to consume less plant matter and less carbs. Our brain, our hearth and our whole body uses keto bodies more efficiently than glyocse. For example, our heart functions 20% more efficiently on ketones than on glycose and same with out brain.

I will give you one more argument. Paintings on the cave walls were not their home pets! Not an intelligent one but you get the idea..

CrazyMed, Thanks.


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## robertz (Feb 4, 2009)

Ju pa and crazymed are right. I used to be vegetarian and I ended up with various defficiencies and a damaged thyroid.

Keep in mind that BIG CORPORATIONS are trying hard to push SOY and other crap on us, because that way they can feed us like they feed their farm animals, in a much cheaper way. All that SOY propaganda is very dangerous, because SOY is known to disrupt normal thyroid functions and a damaged thyroid can lead to depression, anxiety and other diseases where BIG PHARMA earns a lot of money.


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## Catlover4100 (Feb 10, 2009)

robertz said:


> Ju pa and crazymed are right. I used to be vegetarian and I ended up with various defficiencies and a damaged thyroid.
> 
> Keep in mind that BIG CORPORATIONS are trying hard to push SOY and other crap on us, because that way they can feed us like they feed their farm animals, in a much cheaper way. All that SOY propaganda is very dangerous, because SOY is known to disrupt normal thyroid functions and a damaged thyroid can lead to depression, anxiety and other diseases where BIG PHARMA earns a lot of money.


If you ended up with deficiencies on a vegetarian diet, it doesn't mean that it was the "vegetarian" part that was a problem. Yes, vegetarians can be deficient in many things, but no more so than omnivores.

Whole, non-GMO soy is incredibly healthy, and does not disrupt thyroid function. However, the highly processed isolate forms of soy that are found in foods such as protein bars and powders and various packaged food is dangerous. Soy itself is not the problem, it's what these companies are turning it into - an ingredient not found in nature!


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## Catlover4100 (Feb 10, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Its well known that early humans eat mostly meat and fruit certain periods a year.
> 
> If you want research regarding the beneficial effects of keto diets, you can look at this site.
> http://www.apinchofhealth.com/resources/lowcarb/low-carb-research.html


The research was interesting to read, but I'm not exactly picking up what you're putting down. These studies are not conclusive enough to prove that a high-protein diet is healthful. If you would like to read something more conclusive, I suggest The China Study. It also ignored the proven side-effects of keto diets, such as ketoacidosis and calcium leaching.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Catlover4100 said:


> The research was interesting to read, but I'm not exactly picking up what you're putting down. These studies are not conclusive enough to prove that a high-protein diet is healthful. If you would like to read something more conclusive, I suggest The China Study. *It also ignored the proven side-effects of keto diets, such as ketoacidosis and calcium leaching.*


Show me the proof then, if i'm correct those risks are actually disproven, i'l look into it later today.


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

Catlover4100 said:


> The research was interesting to read, but I'm not exactly picking up what you're putting down. These studies are not conclusive enough to prove that a high-protein diet is healthful. If you would like to read something more conclusive, I suggest The China Study. It also ignored the proven side-effects of keto diets, such as ketoacidosis and calcium leaching.


I told you are intelligent but ketosis is not caused by ketogenic diet and no calcium will be leached. Actually all meat eaters have perfectly fine calcium levels! I think grains can leach calcium as they acidify blood. Remember blood is alkaline and intestines acidic. If you read about alkaline diets they seem to tell you wrong story that you need to be alkaline so eat green matter. Colon must be acidic or Candida will get out of control.

I see that you are smart. Take an evening off and read this http://activenocarber.myfreeforum.org/Concise_Bear_about1646.html . He doesn't link his knowledge with research but most of his arguments are backed with research.


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

Catlover4100 said:


> The research was interesting to read, but I'm not exactly picking up what you're putting down. These studies are not conclusive enough to prove that a high-protein diet is healthful. If you would like to read something more conclusive, I suggest The China Study. It also ignored the proven side-effects of keto diets, such as ketoacidosis and calcium leaching.


This proves you wrong about ketosis. http://www.biblelife.org/ketosis.htm


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## Catlover4100 (Feb 10, 2009)

Biblelife? Wow. This argument is honestly wearing me out, and it's pretty clear that no one is going to "win". I think we'll have to agree to disagree so I can keep my last shred of sanity, and you guys can too! Truce?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Catlover4100 said:


> Biblelife? Wow. This argument is honestly wearing me out, and it's pretty clear that no one is going to "win". I think we'll have to agree to disagree so I can keep my last shred of sanity, and you guys can too! *Truce?*


Nah!

Still awaiting the evidence that keto diets induce ketoacidosis


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Nah!
> 
> Still awaiting the evidence that keto diets induce ketoacidosis


I told she's smart. You won't get the answer as she won't go look for it. She believes what she wants to believe. I was just trying to show something different. It's all about learning new things and changing our point of view. As like brushing your teeth with other hand. It feels uncomfortable at first but you will embrace the change in no time!


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## Catlover4100 (Feb 10, 2009)

ju_pa said:


> I told she's smart. You won't get the answer as she won't go look for it. She believes what she wants to believe. I was just trying to show something different. It's all about learning new things and changing our point of view. As like brushing your teeth with other hand. It feels uncomfortable at first but you will embrace the change in no time!


Oy ve! Actually, I was an adherant to the standard american diet for many years before going vegan. I slowly went vegetarian, but I thought veganism was for nut jobs. However, I did my research and came around. So pardon me if I've already done my research and think keto diets are full of crap. This thread was originally about B12, and I'm not going to waste my time and energy arguing a fight that will never end. If you want to think I'm stuborn and lazy, go right ahead.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Catlover4100 said:


> Yes, vegetarians can be deficient in many things, but no more so than omnivores.


I'm sorry, but that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Of COURSE a limited diet is going to result in more deficiencies than a well-rounded one. Suggesting otherwise is absurd.

And B12 is a great example of where you're wrong, because B12 only comes from animal products in the diet. Plant sources claimed to carry any form of absorbable B12 have been debunked, and even vegan associations admit to this. The claim that gut flora is able to synthesize significant amounts of B12 in a lot of people is little more than pseudoscience.

That being said, I used to be EXTREMELY low in vitamin B12. Another decade or so without discovering it probably would have resulted in serious neurological damage. I have pernicious anemia, so even though I eat plenty of animal products, my gut is absolutely lousy at absorbing B12. I will require monthly, high-dose B12 injections for the rest of my life. My levels are quite high now, but I've still got severe depression and the injections don't even provide a slight lift in my mood, so my first hand experience is that it's junk for depression, but I know that a lot of people claim it helps with mild depression/dysthmia.


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## Catlover4100 (Feb 10, 2009)

meyaj said:


> I'm sorry, but that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Of COURSE a limited diet is going to result in more deficiencies than a well-rounded one. Suggesting otherwise is absurd.
> 
> And B12 is a great example of where you're wrong, because B12 only comes from animal products in the diet. Plant sources claimed to carry any form of absorbable B12 have been debunked, and even vegan associations admit to this. The claim that gut flora is able to synthesize significant amounts of B12 in a lot of people is little more than pseudoscience.
> 
> That being said, I used to be EXTREMELY low in vitamin B12. Another decade or so without discovering it probably would have resulted in serious neurological damage. I have pernicious anemia, so even though I eat plenty of animal products, my gut is absolutely lousy at absorbing B12. I will require monthly, high-dose B12 injections for the rest of my life. My levels are quite high now, but I've still got severe depression and the injections don't even provide a slight lift in my mood, so my first hand experience is that it's junk for depression, but I know that a lot of people claim it helps with mild depression/dysthmia.


A vegetarian diet is in no way "limited". Ask any vegetarian or vegan you know, and they will likely tell you that after giving up meat they found a whole new world of options. I understand your belief that a vegetarian diet is restricted and limited, but there are a lot of things that I eat now that I never did as an omnivore, such as quinoa, soy milk, spirulina, and flaxseed, just to name a few examples.

Plant products at one point in time contained sufficient amounts of B12 from the soil they were grown in, but do to cleaning and processing they are no longer a reliable source. In laymans terms, the only reason that animal products contain B12 is because the animals eat plants! Nutritional yeast however, is an excellent vegetarian source of B12. Furthermore, the B12 found in supplement form is in no way inferior to that found in food. Theoretically, humans are able to produce B12 on their own, but the research supporting that evidence really only shows a correlation rather than an indisputable fact.

I'm sorry to hear you have pernicious anemia. I too have difficulty absorbing B12, so I take a sublingual supplement. I'm not trying to "gain converts" here; everyone has the right to eat whatever he or she pleases. I just don't appreciate when people accuse me of being wrong either because they simply haven't done enough research on the topic or because they are being overly defensive on the off chance that the dogmas they have believed for so long might be false. As far as B12 helping depression, I agree that it may be beneficial for mild depression or a case of "the blues", but it doesn't seem to have much effect severe, treatment-resistant depression.


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

Catlover4100 said:


> either because they simply haven't done enough research on the topic or because they are being overly defensive on the off chance that the dogmas they have believed for so long might be false.


It's amazing. Carnivores think the same thing against vegeterians. But it's wrong to say it in public.

Ketogenic diets are not rubbish. Probably all eskimos (Not all now as junk food has come to their culture) produce keto bodies from fat and use it for energy.
Did I add Steffanson's link ? I think I did.

DR. Stephen Byrne's article on Mercola
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2002/01/26/vegetarianism-myths-02.aspx


> *Myth #2: Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.*
> Of all the myths, this is perhaps the most dangerous. While lacto and lacto-ovo vegetarians have sources of vitamin B12 in their diets (from dairy products and eggs), vegans (total vegetarians) do not.
> Vegans who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 will eventually get anemia (a potentially fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage; most, if not all, vegans have impaired B12 metabolism and every study of vegan groups has demonstrated low vitamin B12 concentrations in the majority of individuals (11).
> Several studies have been done documenting B12 deficiencies in vegan children, often with dire consequences (12). Additionally, claims are made in vegan and vegetarian literature that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and Brewer's yeast. All of them are false as vitamin B12 is only found in animal foods. Brewer's and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 naturally; they are always fortified from an outside source.
> ...


Look we, at least me, are not looking to prove someone wrong here. If you feel healthy and well by being vegeterian then fine but it's a matter of time before you start to understand the consequences of your beliefs. It could be 2 years or 10 years before you need support from supplements to feel healthy but after 10 years of vegeterianism it's longer path to get well again.

And if you feel more spirituality on this diet, consider checking your copper levels. Zinc supplementing could be beneficial.

And that's fine. I won't support this debate anymore as you have your strong beliefs and I have my own. Just consider the other point of view. 
As I can read about vegeterianism all over the net and information about carnivorism is limited, I have posted some links in my previous posts that are good read.

And here's another one: www.rawpaleoforum.com

I wish you good health and you probably will figure out what's best. You are smart


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## Catlover4100 (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, I'm glad we can end this debate with some degree of civility I have considered the "other point of view" many times, in fact, I used to be the "other point of view". I think any diet _can_ potentially be both healthful and unhealthful - omnivorous, vegetarian, vegan, etc. The key is a well-balanced diet with lots of variety and everything in moderation.


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## ju_pa (Sep 21, 2008)

Catlover4100 said:


> Well, I'm glad we can end this debate with some degree of civility I have considered the "other point of view" many times, in fact, I used to be the "other point of view". I think any diet _can_ potentially be both healthful and unhealthful - omnivorous, vegetarian, vegan, etc. The key is a well-balanced diet with lots of variety and everything in moderation.


Yes you are right, diet should have variety. That's why I include some hearts, livers and other organs.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

"well-balanced vegan diet with lots of variety" is one hell of a contradiction.

I have nothing against people who make that choice and can understand why some people do, but let's not kid ourselves. They NEED to take supplements to avoid deficiencies, and when a diet requires you to do so, it's a pretty damn good indicator that it's not well-balanced. At least it's somewhat feasible in the modern world, but dietary supplements haven't exactly been around for very long. 

The soil these days IS often depleted of MINERALS these days, such as magnesium (which incidentally I find to have a much more noticeable effect on depression than B12 ever did), because such minerals cannot be synthesized by ANYTHING, but bacteria is whats responsible for synthesizing B12 and it's an ongoing process. To suggest it can be depleted from the soil in the same way as minerals can is very inaccurate.

That being said, ketogenic diets are pretty stupid too. If I recall correctly, there's really only a proven benefit to some people, mostly children, with certain types of refractory epilepsy. It may be useful for losing weight as well, but it's not exactly known for promoting longevity or healthy aging either. I think meat is an important part of a balanced diet, but it should still really only consist of a rather small proportion of your total dietary intake. Personally, I'm not a super-avid carnivore anyways, eating mostly chicken and fish, but that's just my preference and while it may be healthier than eating beef all the time, I don't really do it out of any conscious health concern.


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## Catlover4100 (Feb 10, 2009)

meyaj said:


> "well-balanced vegan diet with lots of variety" is one hell of a contradiction.
> 
> I have nothing against people who make that choice and can understand why some people do, but let's not kid ourselves. They NEED to take supplements to avoid deficiencies, and when a diet requires you to do so, it's a pretty damn good indicator that it's not well-balanced. At least it's somewhat feasible in the modern world, but dietary supplements haven't exactly been around for very long.
> 
> ...


Just to comment on the soil issue, I meant that washing and processing the _food_ that is grown in soil removes the B12. The soil itself is not any less... "nutritious":b

As far as the rest of this, I have had more than enough of this off topic "debate", and it is clear that we are all quite set in our ways, so I'll not waste my time.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

My sports drink has B12 in it. Maybe it does work. :stu


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