# Baclofen



## Thunder (Nov 5, 2003)

Why in the world would anyone scribe Baclofen for SA? :con


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

I'd never even heard of this pill, so I had to look it up:



> Common uses
> This medicine is a muscle relaxant used to treat muscle spasms associated with multiple sclerosis or spinal cord injuries.


Guess that explains why I haven't heard of it. I know anxiety meds and this isn't one of them.


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## dns (Apr 30, 2008)

here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenibut they write "The pharmacological effects of phenibut are virtually identical to baclofen". And phenibut helps some people ...


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## Drew (Jan 23, 2006)

This thread is old, but it's the only one on here with "baclofen" in the title.

Has anyone here read the book The End of My Addiction?
http://www.amazon.com/End-Addiction-Olivier-Ameisen-M-D/dp/0374140979

Does anyone have any experience taking Baclofen on its own or with other medications? How did/does it work for you?


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## Ehsan (Mar 21, 2009)

maybe coz it is a GABA(B) agonist.
not useful for SAD in my short experience.


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi Drew,

I have read the book and successfully medicated myself with baclofen with regard to addictions. Please feel free to email me if you have any questions.

Regards,

Bleep


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

There is a nice piece of discussion on baclofen in tianeptine thread. This close relative of phenibut definitely has some poorly known potential for anxiety.


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## Drew (Jan 23, 2006)

It's pretty exciting:


> A patient who was cured after showing Olivier Ameisen's The End of My Addiction to his general practitioner insisted on meeting Ameisen after a lecture he gave in Amsterdam. Out of gratitude, the patient donated an anonymous gift of $750,000 to the University of Amsterdam to conduct the clinical trial of high-dose baclofen Ameisen had called for since 2004. Dr. Reinout Wiers will conduct the trial in early 2011 under Ameisen's guidance.


http://www.olivierameisen.com/en/


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## Rbk (Aug 5, 2010)

I thought about baclofen many times but I'm not sure does it has anxiolytic properities. I heared that baclofen may be good to treat alcoholism. Drug is very cheap so the only problem is to get prescription.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

Baclofen in respect of mood-lifting and anxiolytic effect is a harder version of phenibut which is the same molecule without chlorine atom and thus less potent and less toxic. IMO it's better to try phenibut first, and if 
1) you appreciate such kind of anxiolytic 
2) at the same time phenibut appears to be insufficient 
then shift to baclofen is reasonable. 
And baclofen is very addictive itself - and widely abusable. 
I made the opposite shift indeed, from baclofen to more benign phenibut.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

The only detrimental thing about baclofen is worrysome side effect of cognitive deficits otherwise whatever broflovski said is true. Baclofen is a definite anxiolytic.


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## Drew (Jan 23, 2006)

broflovski said:


> And baclofen is very addictive itself - and widely abusable.


I could be wrong, but my understanding is that it does not have a high abuse potential.



> Baclofen produces its effects by modulating the GABAB receptor, similar to the drug GHB which also activates this receptor and shares some of its effects. However, baclofen does not have significant affinity for the GHB receptor, and has no known abuse potential.


From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631377/pdf/nihms88489.pdf

Edit: Also this:


> BACLOFEN EFFICACY IN REDUCING ALCOHOL CRAVING AND INTAKE: A PRELIMINARY DOUBLE-BLIND RANDOMIZED CONTROLLED STUDY
> Baclofen proved to be easily manageable and no patient discontinued treatment due to the presence of side-effects. No patient was affected by craving for the drug and/or drug abuse.


http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/37/5/504.abstract


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

Baclofen is very definitely not addictive, although there are issues with abrupt cessation of the drug.

At low dosages, it has definite anxiolytic effects. The anxiolytic effect was most welcome, as I had not realised prior that I required it.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

It may be another exotic russian phenomenon (like tianeptine disaster), but baclofen (in the same way as codeine) is widely abusable here as a cheap intoxicant, some easily available substitute for GHB. Cases of addiction and nearly fatal overdose (!) are reported. Phenibut was referred here as "causing addiction", but if it is right, baclofen, being a heavy version of phenibut, must be more dangerous in this aspect. 
I came across this drug, having read reports on its recreational use on russian junkies' forums, indeed. And i actually used it recreationally in 50-100mg range. 
Its usage for alcohol cravings may be a kind of replacement therapy, targeting the same GABA (B) receptor that is affected by alcohol. 
Btw phenibut is indicated for alcoholism (abstinence and post-abstinent syndrome).


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

This is what i call height of desperation.

These russians are out of their of minds. Using pharmaceauticals products as recreational is a loosers way of acheiving high. I mean these are the future drugs and all they are doing is giving bad publicity. Best way to make a pharmaceautical drug a controlled substane is to get junkified using pharm drugs. The russians are exactly doing that to achieve this mission.

Tineptine and baclofen if made controlled, will be a tragedy. In coming future more people will be suffering from SAD OCD MSD and the loop will continue. One day SSRI and a benzo to keep the side effects at bay. I can predict it.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

bleep said:


> Baclofen is very definitely not addictive, although there are issues with abrupt cessation of the drug.
> 
> At low dosages, it has definite anxiolytic effects. The anxiolytic effect was most welcome, as I had not realised prior that I required it.


*Low dose is the key*. The aim it to not get high.

If you resist that urge then Baclofen can be one in the bag to replace benzos absolutely.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

broflovski said:


> Baclofen in respect of mood-lifting and anxiolytic effect is a harder version of phenibut which is the same molecule without chlorine atom and thus less potent and less toxic. IMO it's better to try phenibut first, and if
> 1) you appreciate such kind of anxiolytic
> 2) at the same time phenibut appears to be insufficient
> then shift to baclofen is reasonable.
> ...


I would have to disagree that phenibut is more benign, its tolerance issues are insane when taken regurally and its withdrawal is as bad as that of GHB, both dependency's are interchangeable, while GHB is neurotoxic, it doesnt have the same tolerance issues, baclofen is more benign too IMO, its far weaker then phenibut tough, phenibut apperantly feels like a very weak version of GHB.

I havent read any russian forums but on bluelight ppl dont like baclofen very much.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

I may agree in some extent... but, for instance, such pharmaceutical products as DXM and codeine are recreationally used (and abused) throughout the world (not to say about strong opioid pain-killers, which aren't available in Russia but are the matter of public concern in the USA). There is no guarantee, that this won't occur with baclofen etc in other countries. "Soma" (muscle relaxant similar to baclofen in action) is co-administered with opioids that is well-known in western countries. 
But yes, ban against tianeptine is a tragedy, and ban against baclofen would be a 
stupidity.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I agree that baclofen can be abused yes and that it bas bad dependency issues when taken chronically. GHB has been used in italy for alcohol addiction too while its a widely abused recreational drug itself, actually far more euphoric then alcohol itself.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

However its not just substituting alcohol with another drug what makes GABAB agonists succesfull in addiction, the GABAB receptor has anti tolerance and anti addictive effects, simular to alcohol baclofen can be used for addiction to other drugs:



> Baclofen as a Cocaine Anti-Craving Medication: A Preliminary Clinical Study
> 
> Walter Ling1 MD, Steven Shoptaw1 Ph.D and Dorota Majewska2 Ph.D
> 
> ...


Personally ive noticed that GHB when coadministered with amphetamine i notice far less of the crash afterwards or the days after compared to when i would have taken amp on its own, indicating it prevents a big part of receptor internalization from occuring (temporary rapid tolerance).


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

DXM is cough syrup codiene is also used to suppress cough and sometime used for fever in conjunction with paracetamol.

These are NOT psychiatric drugs although codiene is semi- exception. We don't want to loose such precious meds (tineptine & baclofen) whereas who cares about DXM and codiene?
They suck bad.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> Baclofen, a GABA B receptor agonist that inhibits the release of several neurotransmitters, including dopamine, noradrenaline, 5HT, and glutamate (Huston et al. 1995; Wojcik and Holopainen 1992)


Note that phenibut lacks the anti dopaminergic effect of baclofen, wich is what makes it a superior anxiolytic and overall a more recreational drug then baclofen (wich can also be recreational).

Originally beleived that baclofen works by inhibiting some dopamine release by other drugs, that doesnt appear to be the case as baclofen as noted above doesnt change the cocaine high, its GABAB agonism itself that has anti craving effects.

GHB on the other hand induces dopamine release mediated by the GHB receptor, phenibut has a distinct pharmacology too, for example it's a PEA antagonist, but i'm not sure what causes its differend effects on dopamine compared to baclofen.


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## Rbk (Aug 5, 2010)

In Poland baclofen is also used as a recreational drug. Many people says that it is better than benzos because it makes you "euphoric", and "socialable" like ethanol. Some of them are calling baclofen an "ethanol in pill".

For me, it looks like baclofen is better than phenibut because it seems that tolerance issues are not so bad like with phenibut and the second thing is that phenibut is a expensive supplement and baclofen is a very cheap neurological drug. 

I also heared that baclofen can be dangerous when mixed with ethanol.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Baclofen made my anhedonia worse when i tried it and generally had anti dopaminergic effects wich made it a bit unpleasant in my case.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> I would have to disagree that phenibut is more benign, its tolerance issues are insane when taken regurally and its withdrawal is as bad as that of GHB, both dependency's are interchangeable, while GHB is neurotoxic, it doesnt have the same tolerance issues, baclofen is more benign too IMO, its far weaker then phenibut tough, phenibut apperantly feels like a very weak version of GHB.
> 
> I havent read any russian forums but on bluelight ppl dont like baclofen very much.


It may depend on individual reaction, but i could never achieved (and, feeling that, not even have tried) the same intense of "high" with phenibut, that was easy with baclofen. Now I don't seek any high, and prefer phenibut as approved anxiolytic to off-label use of baclofen for alleviation anxiety. 
I do think that approved nootropic and anxiolytic properties of phenibut outweigh its (probable) more severe tolerance issues in comparison to baclofen, which is nothing, but muscle relaxant with anecdotal/off-label anxiolytic effect, indistinguishable from its recreational potential.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

burner00 said:


> DXM is cough syrup codiene is also used to suppress cough and sometime used for fever in conjunction with paracetamol.
> 
> These are NOT psychiatric drugs although codiene is semi- exception. We don't want to loose such precious meds (tineptine & baclofen) whereas who cares about DXM and codiene?
> They suck bad.


DXM is used by some people (and here on SAS) as psychiatric drug (for NMDA-antagonism and SRI properties). Codeine is the only available opioid for some people, and we know that in some resistant situations opioids may be the only option remaining. I would set baclofen in this row, as a med putatively prospective off-label for anxiety. 
As for tianeptine - it is precious med indeed


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Different people have different opinions and tastes.

To me DXM and codiene are useless be it for therapeutic (psychiatric reasons) use or recreational.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> Note that phenibut lacks the anti dopaminergic effect of baclofen, wich is what makes it a superior anxiolytic and overall a more recreational drug then baclofen (wich can also be recreational).
> 
> Originally beleived that baclofen works by inhibiting some dopamine release by other drugs, that doesnt appear to be the case as baclofen as noted above doesnt change the cocaine high, its GABAB agonism itself that has anti craving effects.
> 
> GHB on the other hand induces dopamine release mediated by the GHB receptor, phenibut has a distinct pharmacology too, for example it's a PEA antagonist, but i'm not sure what causes its differend effects on dopamine compared to baclofen.


Very important note, because anti-dopaminergic properties of baclofen are widely supported in the literature, while phenibut's pro-dopamine action make it useful even in antiparkinsonic therapy! And at the same time i still consider baclofen more abusable (for "high"), that is based on my own experience and Russian (and now, as Rbk says, Polish) anecdotal reports. There is a contradiction here.


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

burner00 said:


> *Low dose is the key*. The aim it to not get high.
> 
> If you resist that urge then Baclofen can be one in the bag to replace benzos absolutely.


Unfortunately the addictive quenching qualities of baclofen are not found at low doses. I had to go as high as 450mg's per day, and currently am on 300mg's. A careful titration plan can minimise any "high", as your body adjusts to any increase in dose over the course of a few days.

crazyMed, thank you for that study, very interesting.

I had no idea people were taking this recreationally. It never ceases to amaze me what some people will resort to.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

how about we stuff in so much dopamine in the brain that baclofens anti-dopaminergic activity is counteracted? 

Is it possible?


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

broflovski, so you have any links to the Polish and Russian abuse phenomena?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Those posts may be of intrest:


> ABA-B does inhibit DA release, at least in certain brain structures, but its effects are just not that simple.
> 
> For example, (PMID: 17955386) indicates baclofen is anxiolytic and improves sexual motivation, an effect typically thought to be mediated downstream of DAergic modulation.
> 
> Don't really have time to research this any time soon, but I'm sure a search through the literature would show that -- at least in some -- baclofen is going to have a relatively paradoxical response due to any number of mechanisms.





> I've spent relatively little time researching baclofen/GABA-B, but it might be worth contrasting with your experience with DA agonists. AFAIK, karoloydi hasn't experimented with them, but I do recall that you saw both treatment efficacy as well as vicious withdrawal from one of them. Given that this response is seen only in a subset of DA agonist users, and seems as if it must be correlated with DA homeostatic mechanisms, I wouldn't be surprised if the same processes were at play here.
> 
> Say, as I've suggested before, you have relatively low DA autoreceptor function, which is one potential explanation for your experience with DA agonists. Baclofen suppresses the firing activity of tonic inhibitory cholinergic (IIRC?) interneurons in the nucleus accumbens; the result is a sudden increase in DA release. In an individual with high autoreceptor function, the sudden DA influx not secondary to a VTA burst efferent would have a robust antagonistic effect on future DA neuron firing and the result would not only be a failure to stimulate DA release, but potentially a strong counter-regulatory response, reducing DA below baseline. Combine that with other effects of GABA-B that may have a mild, sedating influence, and you have a recipe for fatigue.
> 
> ...


http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/...=623464&hl=baclofen&fromsearch=1&#entry623464

In my case it has a definate anti dopaminergic slightly unpleasant effect.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

bleep said:


> Unfortunately the addictive quenching qualities of baclofen are not found at low doses. I had to go as high as 450mg's per day, and currently am on 300mg's. A careful titration plan can minimise any "high", as your body adjusts to any increase in dose over the course of a few days.
> 
> crazyMed, thank you for that study, very interesting.
> 
> I had no idea people were taking this recreationally. It never ceases to amaze me what some people will resort to.


You are reached to the point where taking low doses are absolutely useless. I was assuming you would start your therapy with baclofen.

300mg still is too high. How about a break like taking on alternate days?

This can reduce tolerance to some extent.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

burner00 said:


> You are reached to the point where taking low doses are absolutely useless. I was assuming you would start your therapy with baclofen.
> 
> 300mg still is too high. How about a break like taking on alternate days?
> 
> This can reduce tolerance to some extent.


I dont think he wants the high, just taking it for its anti addictive effects.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

I meant high as in high dosage


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

bleep said:


> broflovski, so you have any links to the Polish and Russian abuse phenomena?


Yes, I might collect some on forums. Mostly "trip-reports", lol. No researches however.



crayzyMed said:


> Those posts may be of intrest:
> 
> http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/...=623464&hl=baclofen&fromsearch=1&#entry623464
> 
> In my case it has a definate anti dopaminergic slightly unpleasant effect.


Interesting, because then i came across baclofen for the first time, i tried to collect any possible data in support to its putative pro-dopaminergic action. To justify its use for myself  And to explain its definite euphoric (and pro-sexual) action. But I failed. 
At the same time, this explanation via (region-specific) anticholinergic action seems not satisfying.


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

The accepted protocol vis-a-vis addiction is an increase of the dose until a switch is reached, at which point indifference to alcohol is achieved. Thereafter, the dose is lowered over time to a maintenance dose. I am in the lowering of the dose phase, so expect this number to decrease over time.

There are couple of science types on another forum I post on, I will ask them to come visit here to explain in more detail on that side of the equation.

Thank you for all your interesting responses.


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

broflovski, if you are still interested in baclofen, there is thread here that has a lot of information:

http://www.mywayout.org/community/f...ad-38718.html?highlight=consolidated+baclofen


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

What exactly is the range of dosing for baclofen for it's anxiolytic properties?


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## Otterovich (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi all

I take Baclofen as do thousands of other people who are now using it to stop addiction. There is a forum called Mywayout where people use it at high dose. The trick is not to OD on it but use it as a low level constant drip sort of medication. It is not addictive but has side effects which are dealt with by slow upward titration. There is also a new forum for Baclofen called www.baclofenforum.com and www.baclofenuk.com. The latter is mine in case you think I have some agenda. I do. I and thousands like me want to get Baclofen recognized as the treatment for alcohol and addiction and any help you can lend to that would be great.

There is a huge amount of info about dosage on these sites and we all suffer from anxiety... it is part of the human condition.

Baclofen is an anxiolitic and a very good one. The world press, Forbes, Time Magazine and others are full of stories about Baclofen being the medication to watch out for in 2011.


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

I don't clinical studies to back me up, but a forum that I post on quite a bit concerning baclofen has users reporting anxiolytic properties from anywhere between 10mg's and 120mg's. 60 to 80mg's seems to be a common theme.


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## Otterovich (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi Bleep

Most people have to go up to over 200mg a day but then go back down to a maintenance dose but total daily dose is not as important as the timing and amount of individual doses through the day. You cannot take this on alternate days. If you stop abruptly with it you get side effects which range from re-emergence of anxiety to delirium. It is not a medication to be taken lightly but has huge potential for saving lives, by the millions.

By the way, great to see you here.

Otter


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

Hello, maybe I should open a new topic about this.

Anyway, I had an extremely big problem with fears. It would go as bad that I didn't even dare to post on online forums. Because of the possible reactions people might give, afraid I might have done some mistyping, or bad spelling even.

To solve this to my own stupidity I started taking lots of alcohol and certain types of drugs.

At some point I would explore the internet to find some medication to stop these drug cravings, which finally I found out was Baclofen.

* Baclofen did not only cure my cravings for drug and alcohol abuse, it solved my extreme fears too. * Made me sleep better and longer.
Made me go outside for once again, without feeling scared at all!
I no longer needed any sort of benzodiaphine either!


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

bleep said:


> I don't clinical studies to back me up, but a forum that I post on quite a bit concerning baclofen has users reporting anxiolytic properties from anywhere between 10mg's and 120mg's. 60 to 80mg's seems to be a common theme.


Do you have any links to the forum and the specific topic?

It definitely will give you physiological withdrawal if taken on a regular basis. My father has M.S. and takes around 40-60 mgs of baclofen a day. When he was admitted to the hospital, a doctor made a very bad mistake. He took him off of the baclofen abruptly. When I went to see him he was in a terrible state, delirious, talking nonsense. Basically on a verge of seizure. We called another doc. in who immediately put him back on the baclofen. As soon as the medicine took effect he returned to his coherent self.


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

metamorphosis, the links are on the previous page of this thread. They have now been approved. You will find further discussion of baclofen within that same forum.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> Those posts may be of intrest:
> 
> http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/...=623464&hl=baclofen&fromsearch=1&#entry623464
> 
> In my case it has a definate anti dopaminergic slightly unpleasant effect.


If this theory is correct, one may obtain the full dopaminergic effect from baclofen using it together with some D-autoreceptors antagonist (low dose neuroleptic). It's a pure speculation though.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

By the way, they are planning to make Stx 209 the new Baclofen. Well the new possibilities that have been found for Baclofen that is.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I wish they would develop GHB analogues with minimal euphoria, yet the same massive therapeutic potential.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

Haha, thát would be Baclofen CrazyMed.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Paars said:


> Haha, thát would be Baclofen CrazyMed.


Hmm in some ways yes, GHB has more effects because it also binds to the GHB receptor wich actually induces dopamine release, it also is the only sedative that can induce deep sleep, besides that due to its short half life its possible to avoid dependency when using it daily (however thats probably a bad thing when using it therapeutically, tough its compareble to ritalin).

However due to its euphoric effects it could actually promote craving or keep you away from daily tasks, id think that a much lower affinity for the GHB receptor so there still is dopamine release but in the therapeutic range, youd have a pretty damn good compound.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

GHB is véry addictive, I can tell as being an ex-addict. Baclofen however is not addictive, it also does not share some crucial effects as GHB. But, it does relax you. Calms your body and mind(On most people I suspect). Doesn't give you the extreme euphoric effect as GHB, does make you sleep excellent. Neutralises most addictions to the point where you can say no to such substances.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes i agree GHB is very mentally addictive, however physical dependence can easily be avoided by never taking it for sleep and never taking it the first few hours after waking up, been doing on and off since 2008. Agreed that the anti addictive effects of baclofen are highly interesting, GHB itself seems to work against amp tolerance too because of the GABAB receptor, coadministration also reduces amp comedowns afterwards alot, however completely lacks baclofen effects on craving.

I normally take around 100ml GBL a week, i definatly agree its pretty addictive.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

Yeah, also when you start taking more. Usually its a question of when, Physical dependency kicks in too. The menthal aspect is a way bigger risk anway. Could always consider trying Baclofen over GHB.
Ofcourse completely up to you.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Paars said:


> Yeah, also when you start taking more. Usually its a question of when, Physical dependency kicks in too. The menthal aspect is a way bigger risk anway. Could always consider trying Baclofen over GHB.
> Ofcourse completely up to you.


There wont be any physical dependency if you consistently never take it for sleep, you have to be VERY consistent, also taking enough time off during daytime too.

Im not gonna try baclofen (actually i did try it but im not gonna take it daily, it also only caused negative effects in my case) as i wont be able to avoid physical dependency with it and i dont want to get dependent on any drug, i feel strongly to be able to go back to baseline whenever i want it.

But yeah being consistent can be hard, wich is the reason many get addicted (altough i think many are also unaware thats it possible to avoid physical dependency).

I like GHB because its pretty weak, it wont change my behavor or something, its more like a euphoric mood booster rather then something potent like other drugs, however i do think my reaction to it is paradoxal, tolerance and neurotoxiticy can be avoided with memantine wich is a must have when taking amp or G on a regular basis imo.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

How do you feel when the GHB effects wear off? The positive effect of Baclofen is that there is no Menthally dependency of it. Physicially only in high doses, which can easily be titrated back. Here's the diffrence with GHB. I don't think it matters wheater you take GHB before going to bed or not, being consistent in not making your doses bigger is, or more often is the key. But I can imagine, on bad days, with receiving bad news etc. Its easy to chose to take another shot of GHB.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

After GHB wears off i'm just back to baseline and i can easily go to sleep if i want, maybe a bit tired if ive been dosing all day before, i completely agree on no dose escalation, or basicly no tolerance, wich is why i allways recommend memantine with it, currently i'm without G again as i allways order too late, when i run out ive never noticed any withdrawals.

I know my reaction is paradoxally as ppl report a "rebound".

I actually cant even sleep on G.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

Drugs/medication works diffrently for everyone. I'm glad GHB does work out for you.  And I don't need to say again obviously to be careful about becoming addicted, you're very aware of that. 

With me, I felt depressed as soon the GHB wore off.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Also initially? I understand that would make it hard to not keep taking it, was it a effect of the GHB or did you actually suffer from depression? For most it seems the issue is that the rebound makes it harder to sleep, so ppl stay on it to avoid insomnia.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

When not taking it I would feel better than taking with the aftermath effects yeah. Also my system filters out any chemical drugs extremely fast. So, Ghb would only work about 2 hours effectively for me.


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## betachains (Mar 1, 2011)

I looked at the baclofen/alcohol forums and whoa! Those guys are claiming that high-dose baclofen cures everything from alcoholism (99% cure rate!) to cocaine addiction to (mere) anxiety. A lot of them seemed to be zonked but don't realize it.

I'd say be careful.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm on those forums as well. Official numbers are 88% succes rate on curing alcoholism so far. So you maybe consider me as 'zonked' which I don't know exactly what it means.(English just my 3rd language) But I could take a guess. High doses are needed on curing addictions, for anxiety and such I personally think extreme doses really isn't nessecary.


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## betachains (Mar 1, 2011)

99% or 88% I call BS. Every new miracle cure for addiction claims that. 

How well does baclofen work for social anxiety? At a dose that doesn't leave you sleepy?


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

Well pretty much there has only been small case-studies. But its an old medication which they discovered with new possibilities.
Have you seen this? 



 few minut video how it works on relaxing cravings. I think in some sort it works the same way on extreme SA.

I don't even get sleepy at a dose of 250mg a day, though I have lowered it now a lot.

I have no numbers on SA, I think effects should be noticeble at 30 to 60mg a day.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

betachains said:


> 99% or 88% I call BS. Every new miracle cure for addiction claims that.
> 
> How well does baclofen work for social anxiety? At a dose that doesn't leave you sleepy?


Id say its quite possible, the GABAB receptor plays a definate role in addiction, as another example memantine for example counteracts tolerance issues for most people, i can easily imagine another med inhibiting craving quite effectively, another extremely effective example is ibogaine.


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## Drew (Jan 23, 2006)

That's why this large clinical trial is so important. The more hard data we have, the better.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> Adv Pharmacol. 2010;58:373-96.
> GABAB receptors in addiction and its treatment.
> Tyacke RJ, Lingford-Hughes A, Reed LJ, Nutt DJ.
> 
> ...





> CNS Neurol Disord Drug Targets. 2010 Mar;9(1):33-44.
> Effectiveness and safety of baclofen in the treatment of alcohol dependent patients.
> Leggio L, Garbutt JC, Addolorato G.
> 
> ...





> Complete suppression of craving in alcohol-dependent individuals: is it possible?
> Kiefer F.
> 
> Department of Addictive Behaviour and Addiction Medicine, University of Heidelberg, Central Institute of Mental Health, Mannheim 68159, Germany. [email protected]
> ...





> Drug Alcohol Depend. 2009 Jul 1;103(1-2):30-6. Epub 2009 Apr 23.
> The GABA B agonist baclofen reduces cigarette consumption in a preliminary double-blind placebo-controlled smoking reduction study.
> Franklin TR, Harper D, Kampman K, Kildea-McCrea S, Jens W, Lynch KG, O'Brien CP, Childress AR.
> 
> ...





> Ann Clin Psychiatry. 2008 Jul-Sep;20(3):145-55.
> Pharmacotherapy for methamphetamine dependence: a review of the pathophysiology of methamphetamine addiction and the theoretical basis and efficacy of pharmacotherapeutic interventions.
> Rose ME, Grant JE.
> 
> ...


xx


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

Currently they are doing a big test at a University at Amsterdam. Someone donated halve a million euro's for research/running a big testgroup considering alcoholism.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> BMC Psychiatry. 2003 Nov 18;3:16.
> Baclofen for maintenance treatment of opioid dependence: a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trial [ISRCTN32121581].
> Assadi SM, Radgoodarzi R, Ahmadi-Abhari SA.
> 
> ...





> Alcohol Alcohol. 2002 Sep-Oct;37(5):478-84.
> A potential role for GABA(B) agonists in the treatment of psychostimulant addiction.
> Brebner K, Childress AR, Roberts DC.
> 
> ...


I'l take a look at first 2 reviews soon, effiacy seems to be mixed in some trials, however this can easily be caused by dose differences or other factors.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Looks like they were talking about gabatril and the other one with regards to mixed results not baclofen, it does look to have a good deal of shown effiacy behind it. Still have to read both full texts.


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## betachains (Mar 1, 2011)

I don't disagree that baclofen may help with some addictions. After all, it is a psychoactive drug. But when people claim 88% success (or higher) and that it is good for all addictions, plus anxiety, and maybe depression, my BS radar goes way up. Besides, the studies quoted use doses which are way too low according to the baclofen-for-addiction crowd.

More relevant for this group, does "regular-dose" baclofen help with social anxiety? Are neurological patients on baclofen more gregarious than those not on it?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I consider baclofen fairly useless for anxiety, or other stuff, i never saw anyone claiming that baclofen was great for anxiety or something, just one guy in the thread said it worked for he's anxiety, totally disconnected to the effiacy in addiction.

If GABAB plays a keyrole in the adaptive changes induced by addiction, the i would actually EXPECT a high effiacy when it comes to craving.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

betachains said:


> After all, it is a psychoactive drug.


GABAB agonism plays a keyrole in drug induced adaptive chances, it has nothing to do with the fact its a psychoactive drug, one of its actions is acting on neurotrophic changes in the ventral tegmental area.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

Actually I'm not the only one claiming that it helped to deal with my SA. It helped with my depression as in my depression was directly linked to my Sa, drugabuse, horrible sleep, false perceptions.

Its an old medication, pharmaceutical industry cannot make any money out of it. So they have no reason to reasearch it anymore.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I know, just ment to say you said it worked for your anxiety and that you didnt say "it cures 99% of social anxiety".


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

GHB works for you right? Baclofen is chemically very related to that.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Paars said:


> GHB works for you right? Baclofen is chemically very related to that.


GHB doesnt reduce my social anxiety at all, the only reason i take it is the euphoria, i just stay as anxious on it around others, so as expected baclofen doesnt help my sa either, it actually makes me feel worse as it reduces dopamine (wich im very sensitive for, as the only treatment working for me are dopamine releasers like amphetamine).


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

I see, in that case indeed Baclofen would probably also not be suited for you no.


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## betachains (Mar 1, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> GABAB agonism plays a keyrole in drug induced adaptive chances, it has nothing to do with the fact its a psychoactive drug, one of its actions is acting on neurotrophic changes in the ventral tegmental area.


Well, I just went over to the baclofen/alcohol forum and read the first few threads. Various posters report nausea, insomnia, finger twitches, trouble talking, extreme agitation, etc. Enough bad stuff to cut down on alcohol intake, I would think.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

That seems like a reason to get some more alcohol or to get high to me lol.


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## betachains (Mar 1, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> That seems like a reason to get some more alcohol or to get high to me lol.


Yeah, maybe they need more meds. Hey, you could give those guys expert advice on what else to take to counter all the side effects. : )


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

High doses of Baclofen, especially when people haven't stopped drinking yet may cause those symptoms yes. For Anxiety I think, low doses may work well enough. Also, Baclofen seems to feel better for addicts that became addicts by self-medicating for their SA and other anxiety, fear and phobia related disorders.


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## Paars (Feb 27, 2011)

Olivier Ameisen wrote a book called "The end of my addiction" He got addicted to alcohol to be able to deal with his SA. The Baclofen removed the alcohol cravings, but his SA as well.


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## Seth26 (Apr 5, 2009)

I just read the Amieson book yesterday, not having heard of Baclofen before.
I'm not on any meds and have SA, but I'm not sure about just going to the doc and asking for a script. I'm a heavy drinker when I have the money and I drink because of SA for the most part. I've tried Zoloft and it didn't do squat. What do people think is the best thing to take overall?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I have a lot experience with baclofen because of my alcohol problems in the past. I went up to 400mg / day, the so called "switch" for me and then tapered down. Alcohol craving is gone... nice, I don't have neurobiological explanation for that though.

Side effects were tolerable, but I have a very high tolerance to drugs. It didn't help me with anxiety at all. Phenibut does, acting also on GABA-A, but tolerance occurs very fast.

One word of caution: Baclofen is not psychological addictive, but physical withdrawal is very real and dangerous. After having taken it for month straight, one must not stop it abruptly.


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

Ditto here, reduced cravings to zero after titrating up to 450mg's, with tolerable side effects. At doses of approximately 100mg's to 140mg's there was a definite anxiolytic effect.

I would recommend it strongly if alcohol cravings are an issue for you.


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## Comfortably Glum (Jan 6, 2010)

Did you guys notice any memory impairment? or are those effects only associated with GABAa agonists?


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## angus (Dec 18, 2010)

I take Baclofen to keep me off the booze.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I didn't have memory impairment from 400mg baclofen, but my tolerance is very high. GABA-A-agonists are much worse for memory.


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## bleep (Feb 27, 2011)

CB - at certain doses I noticed definite absentmindedness, but it disappeared and reappeared depending on the dose. I'm currently on about 270mg's ( the protocol is that you work you work your way down after reaching indifference to alcohol), and there is none currently at that dose. The side effects have all but disappeared on the way down, which is a relief.

Sorry, time commitments mean I'm unable to check this thread often, so my responses may be delayed at times.


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## Drew (Jan 23, 2006)

Also, you could look into the racetams to counter the effects, even if only a little. I believe there is research that shows it's effectiveness in slightly helping with alzheimers?


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## akountear (Mar 22, 2011)

i tried baclofen 3 days for SA an a little bit for drinking craving
3*5mg the first day, felt nothing
3*5mg the second day, felt nothing
3*10mg the third one, I felt very tired and withouth energy in my body, so I stopped there


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## Drew (Jan 23, 2006)

akountear said:


> i tried baclofen 3 days for SA an a little bit for drinking craving
> 3*5mg the first day, felt nothing
> 3*5mg the second day, felt nothing
> 3*10mg the third one, I felt very tired and withouth energy in my body, so I stopped there


My understanding is the alcohol craving benefits are at a much higher dose and the somnolence you experienced goes away with time.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

akountear said:


> i tried baclofen 3 days for SA an a little bit for drinking craving
> 3*5mg the first day, felt nothing
> 3*5mg the second day, felt nothing
> 3*10mg the third one, I felt very tired and withouth energy in my body, so I stopped there


You're doses are very low/low. When you say 3*, do you mean in 3 separate doses yeah? If so, then no wonder you aren't feeling anything.

I take 50mg doses minimum, but I've found 75mg is better. (Everyone is different though, so watch you don't dose too high too quickly)

I only need to take that once a day, usually first thing in the morning, and maybe if I really need to (depending on situation) I'll top up with another 25-50mg 12 hours later.

Be aware though that these kind of drugs (Baclofen/Phenibut and similar drugs GBL/GHB) do nothing for some people beyond making them sleepy.


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## akountear (Mar 22, 2011)

Yep 3 separates doses
thank you for your experiences


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## gg3726 (May 9, 2011)

*Baclofen for SA*

Hi - I'm currently on 45mg of Mirtazipine and 1 lithium tab (which will be removed in a week).

I've been taking 2.5 mg of Baclofen for SA a day (before bedtime) and so far, it's been pretty good. No side effects except for not feeling myself (brainwise). Also can be difficult to read. Will this feeling subside? I'm usually sensitive to meds and want Baclofen to work so that I don't have to rely on benzos to get through the day (which have caused havoc in my life due to a long-term addiciton).

When I started taking Baclofen I felt phenomenal for the first two days (like I was on a benzo) and then I crashed and felt really depressed. I initally took 40 mg a day. As I reduced the dose, I found that this mental clouding lifted. I'm figuring that I stick to the 2.5mg a day and then PRN.

Any comments would be much appreciated.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

Bump, I seem to finally have found some rationale behind baclofen anxiolytic and euphoric properties. Although the common knowledge is that it inhibits dopamine, the story is not that simple. 


> we predicted that a GABAB agonist would exert a bi-directional effect on the VTA output. With a low agonist concentration, GABA neurons would be electrically silenced, leading to disinhibition of the dopamine neurons. Conversely, dopamine neurons would be directly inhibited via GABAB receptors with high agonist concentrations.


So low-doses baclofen is dopaminergic, agonising preferentially GABAB _autoreceptors _thus diminishing inhibitory GABA input to VTA dopamine neurons and disinhibiting them in opioid-like manner.


> Such bi-directional modulation could explain the fact that, in addition to the suppression of self-administration, euphoria is a well-established side effect of baclofen. Interestingly, GABA neurons are also more sensitive to GABAA receptor agonists than dopamine neurons. This may explain why modulators of GABAA receptors such as benzodiazepines have rewarding effects.


I wonder if more recognized phenibut's (and alcohol's?) pro-dopamine action is of the same origin.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

So what doses are we talking about here then? 50mg a day definatly completely abolished amp's dopamine release.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

gg3726 said:


> Hi - I'm currently on 45mg of Mirtazipine and 1 lithium tab (which will be removed in a week).
> 
> I've been taking 2.5 mg of Baclofen for SA a day (before bedtime) and so far, it's been pretty good. No side effects except for not feeling myself (brainwise). Also can be difficult to read. Will this feeling subside? I'm usually sensitive to meds and want Baclofen to work so that I don't have to rely on benzos to get through the day (which have caused havoc in my life due to a long-term addiciton).
> 
> ...


So at that low dose you get the same effects as at the original 40mg dose? AS for me the first day at 50mg it works great and synergizes with amp, but days after it just completely inhibits amp and is anti dopaminergic, seems to build up in your system.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> So what doses are we talking about here then? 50mg a day definatly completely abolished amp's dopamine release.


Don't mix it with amp Maybe anti-dopaminergic properties of bac express in the presence of other dopaminergics (hence that report of baclofen inhibition morphine-induced DA release and your experience with amp)... but have no idea how exactly. 
My usual dose (I've started baclofen again, what a shame) is 40-50 mg. It's obviously emphatogenic/anxiolytic/desinhibiting.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

"So low-doses baclofen is dopaminergic, agonising preferentially GABAB _autoreceptors _thus diminishing inhibitory GABA input to VTA dopamine neurons and disinhibiting them in opioid-like manner."

Should be interesting to understand why opioids (and gaba-b agonist) which increaser DA in the mesolimbic doesn't cause paranoia, as amphetamine does. My theory is that they decrease mesolimbic tone and increase phasic DA, that's why they work so well with stims.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

^^Maybe, I remember reading something similar concerning NAchR ligands, that 'decrease mesolimbic tone and increase phasic DA' at this manner, but it may be deja vu 
I've always been satisfied with the version that opioids and GABA-agonists, being overall depressants do not cause adverse effects of stims like paranoia.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

broflovski said:


> ^^Maybe, I remember reading something similar concerning NAchR ligands, that 'decrease mesolimbic tone and increase phasic DA' at this manner, but it may be deja vu


That's why schizo are heavy smokers 

"I've always been satisfied with the version that opioids and GABA-agonists, being overall depressants do not cause adverse effects of stims like paranoia. "

phenibut how works to counteract paranoia? I never understood his half-life (i didn't research well, that's true)


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

JohnG said:


> phenibut how works to counteract paranoia? I never understood his half-life (i didn't research well, that's true)


Slightly relevant experience: I once took baclofen (close relative of phenibut) with rather paranoid hallucinogenic DOB, and enjoyed all visuals etc without any paranoia, being calm and serene. Phenibut is anecdotally known here to 'smooth the edges' of speeds. It's half-life is 6-8 hours, according to information sheet.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

Yes, I suspect baclofen isn't so near to phenibut or alchool, has strange reactions especially with stims


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnG said:


> "So low-doses baclofen is dopaminergic, agonising preferentially GABAB _autoreceptors _thus diminishing inhibitory GABA input to VTA dopamine neurons and disinhibiting them in opioid-like manner."
> 
> Should be interesting to understand why opioids (and gaba-b agonist) which increaser DA in the mesolimbic doesn't cause paranoia, as amphetamine does. My theory is that they decrease mesolimbic tone and increase phasic DA, that's why they work so well with stims.


I still disagree entirely that mesolimbic dopamine causes paranoia, but then again i'm probably not shizo and likely i ****ing hate nicotine haha.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

broflovski said:


> Slightly relevant experience: I once took baclofen (close relative of phenibut) with rather paranoid hallucinogenic DOB, and enjoyed all visuals etc without any paranoia, being calm and serene. Phenibut is anecdotally known here to 'smooth the edges' of speeds. It's half-life is 6-8 hours, according to information sheet.


Why is that for them it doesnt inhibit speed and for me it does? (only second day tough, first day it does take of the edges). Wish i had some more to try the autoreceptor doses.


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## DK3 (Sep 21, 2011)

I'm currently doing some research into different (GABA agonist) SA medications and came across this interesting review for Baclofen which I thought might be relevant to this thread of interest to someone (note the bit I have highlighted in bold):



> swim would have to say baclofen is very weak compared to GABA A agonists such as benzodiazepines, alcohol, barbiturates, soma (carisoprodol,meprobamate is major metabolite). swim has extensive experience from years and years with benzodiazepines like clonazepam, lorazepam, oxazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, temezepam, and so on. also with barbiturates. swim has a ton of experience with phenobarbital (usually a 300mg dose is good), and butalbital (swim has extraced from fioricet. and tons of experience with alcohol, and carisoprodol (used to buy them online all the time and now has a prescription from his own doctor).
> 
> Baclofen is much like phenibut, as it is a phenyl derivative of GABA. swim likes phenibut when he can't get his other meds. baclofen is similar, maybe a little stronger and with a cleaner feeling. not injesting grams of powder, ect. (swim needs like 5-10 g of phenibut). but swim has to say, baclofen feels pretty good. swim took an interest in it after enjoying phenibut, and asked his doctor for some. he got prescribed like 80mg/day. swim tried about 100mg over the day but never really noticed much. it wasn't untill a couple of days later that swim injested baclofen and really enjoyed it's mild effects. *definately does not make swim drowsy in any way. but it really kills anxiety. and it does make his body feel good. he also feels talkative, like an anti depressant may be, which swim has never done. well it's kind of like when swim is on pregabalin. he wants to talk to people, instead of retreat from his surroundings and the people, as he has a bad anxiety disorder. baclofen obliterates anxiety, which is a really good use for the drug. with all the talkativeness, slight euphoria/relaxation, this might be where people compare to ghb. *the only thing close to that swim has done is 1,4 butanediol, and really has no reccolection of that time period.
> 
> ...


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## DK3 (Sep 21, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> GHB doesnt reduce my social anxiety at all, the only reason i take it is the euphoria, i just stay as anxious on it around others, so as expected baclofen doesnt help my sa either, it actually makes me feel worse as it reduces dopamine (wich im very sensitive for, as the only treatment working for me are dopamine releasers like amphetamine).


This thread has got me thinking more about SA and how people with it respond differently to the same meds.

Take the med of discussion here, Baclofen. Many claim it does nothing or very little for SA, while others (like the review I posted from another forum earlier) claim it helped a lot with SA, much like GHB does for some people (myself included).

This suggests that SA is a lot more complicated than people generally think it is. It may be related to, or affected by different substance addictions and/or chemical imbalances. In other words, there may be one type of SA, but lots of different sub-types. This may explain why no one single medication has ever been really effective in treating the majority of people with SA.


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## tornadobill (Dec 14, 2011)

yes baclofen is unlike ghb and phenibut and in high doses pretty weird too. I have taken taken large doses all at once and it remimds me of of the 2cb family(2cb and other 2cxx). Have gotten insane closed eyed visuals,even a few OEVs(Open Eyed Visuals) and mood changes while in a very clear headspace from baclofen. But such effects never last beyond a dy or so like the phenetytlamines. After using baclofen it seem to work like phenibut. So I use it rarely and for special occasions only though i take a few for anxiety. Its a strange drug with strange effects in high doses.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

DK3 said:


> This thread has got me thinking more about SA and how people with it respond differently to the same meds.
> 
> Take the med of discussion here, Baclofen. Many claim it does nothing or very little for SA, while others (like the review I posted from another forum earlier) claim it helped a lot with SA, much like GHB does for some people (myself included).
> 
> This suggests that SA is a lot more complicated than people generally think it is. It may be related to, or affected by different substance addictions and/or chemical imbalances. In other words, there may be one type of SA, but lots of different sub-types. This may explain why no one single medication has ever been really effective in treating the majority of people with SA.


I agree. I think every psychiatric disorder should be placed under 'mood problem' in general, resulting in trying people on a variety of meds instead of just meds from category x for disorder x, until they themselves FEEL better. (instead of the psychiatrist feeling better, patting him- or herself on the back for prescribing a med from the correct category as is now very much the case) The only end goal should be to help people feel better, who cares with what diagnosis and meds from wich category you achieve that.

It's interesting to me that in another recent thread someone said he felt better knowing he had disorder x. Really? I just want to feel better. If that means I'm placed under Cornbread disorder and treated with chocolate cake and garden hose showers, that's fine by me. As long as I'm feeling better.


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