# As atheists, do you admire China?



## Solomon's Tomb

So, I'm not criticizing atheism here or anything, but I do want to ask all atheists out there: Do you admire China for their outlawing of religion and mandatory suppression of faith? I just find it funny that China, which is basically the birthplace of all religion is now almost exclusively atheist... 

Anyway, as far as China goes, some parts of it are really cool, like Hong Kong, Shanghai and Singapore. But much of the country is in misery, ruled by communism and suppression, part of which dictates the abolition of religion. So, what do (and I'm speaking specifically to American atheists here) you think of China?


----------



## Gurosan

I don't feel like having special liking for any country, but if i did- it would be Thailand for exocit stuff they have- like trying snakeblood for a drink and if i am super lucky to know more about ancient Thai woodoo at some really remote places^^


----------



## ScrewedUpMentality

Well theres always a benefit and a consequence to everything really. Im a atheist myself and NO i dont think this is good bcuz if a person doesn't believe that there is a Heaven or Hell, then people would do things without remorcse (I think that's how you spell it) So i would to kill someone or rob someone, then i would be like "Who gives a ****, we all gonna die anyways" and that is the mentality of the majority of serial killers out there.


----------



## typemismatch

Well as organised religion is a method of controlling the masses, and the Chinese government still likes to strictly control the masses, I don't see much difference.


----------



## TrcyMcgrdy1

When did this happen because a couple eyars ago in my Chinese History and Political classes, we learned that China has millions of Buddhists, Christians, Islamic, and many other religious groups. China has started to let religious groups practice their faith and have become less controlling over religion steadily recently. Same goes for Capitalisnm as well. They are letting private companies and owners control parts of the economy. I don't however, admire China because a lot of their economic success is built on lies and fakeness. It is absurd. i woudl go into more detail, but when it comes to politics and religion, i have the ability to morph into extrmely heated debating flaming troll man.


----------



## targetbuddy

The main reason China, like Russia, suppressed religion was communism. Now that it's gone, they're becoming much more tolerant again.
Anyway, why would I, as an American citizen, admire the suppression of religion? Freedom of religion was one of the reasons we revolted against Britain in the first place. I may try to get people to stop believing in Christianity every now and then, but I'd have to be the biggest hypocrite in the world to force or bully somebody into non-belief.


----------



## GaaraAgain

Why would I? I might think religion is stupid, but I also think people should be free to believe whatever stupid **** they want. Just don't try to force that **** on me and we're good. /shrug

Edit: Japan > China imo


----------



## xsiv8

That information is outdated. Did you know that China has the fastest growing Christian population than anywhere in the world? It's not really allowed per se, but as long as it's not seen as a threat, Chinese people meet and have masses. I saw a 20/20 episode on it.


----------



## Sur

ScrewedUpMentality said:


> Well theres always a benefit and a consequence to everything really. Im a atheist myself and NO i dont think this is good bcuz if a person doesn't believe that there is a Heaven or Hell, then people would do things without remorcse (I think that's how you spell it) So i would to kill someone or rob someone, then i would be like "Who gives a ****, we all gonna die anyways" and that is the mentality of the majority of serial killers out there.


You serious man? I'm an atheist too and you don't see me running around shooting people up. You mean to tell me that without religion and threat of hell or the bribe of heaven that people would have no morals?

Why aren't you robbing people then? Why am I not killing people?

C'mon bro I really doubt you believe what you say.

If anything, believing that this is the only life I have makes me cherish it and motivates me to get rid of this bull**** social anxiety so I can live my life how I want.


----------



## ScrewedUpMentality

Sur said:


> You serious man? I'm an atheist too and you don't see me running around shooting people up. You mean to tell me that without religion and threat of hell or the bribe of heaven that people would have no morals?
> 
> Why aren't you robbing people then? Why am I not killing people?
> 
> C'mon bro I really doubt you believe what you say.
> 
> If anything, believing that this is the only life I have makes me cherish it and motivates me to get rid of this bull**** social anxiety so I can live my life how I want.


No i dont see you running around shooting people but i do see "James Holmes Movie theatre shooting in colorado, Adolf Hitler, . and yes if there is no heaven or hell majority of people wont have morals because they cant handle the truth that there isn't **** in the after life. And yes i have been hittin' licks before, you dont know my life and Why not shoot people up or rape and rob? there isn't a force that'll judge you anyways? see what im sayin? if people ask themselves that in their heads, they'll go crazy and some will act upon it. do your research on all these famous serial killers and you'll see what i am talkin about. And yes IM AN ATHEIST


----------



## Sur

ScrewedUpMentality said:


> No i dont see you running around shooting people but i do see "James Holmes Movie theatre shooting in colorado, Adolf Hitler, . and yes if there is no heaven or hell majority of people wont have morals because they cant handle the truth that there isn't **** in the after life. And yes i have been hittin' licks before, you dont know my life and Why not shoot people up or rape and rob? there isn't a force that'll judge you anyways? see what im sayin? if people ask themselves that in their heads, they'll go crazy and some will act upon it. do your research on all these famous serial killers and you'll see what i am talkin about. And yes IM AN ATHEIST


First off. Adolf Hitler wasn't an atheist. In his autobio named _Mein Kampf_ he repeatedly makes statements that confirm his Christianity. Do a quick few searches and you'll see for yourself.

Second, people been hitting licks and murdering each other whether Christian or Muslim. Did you forget about the Crusades? They wore crosses on their chests while slitting killing people in the name of Christianity.

Third, please give me some evidence for those famous serial killers killing just because they were atheist or anything like that. I don't know of any.

As I said, if people act good just because they are scared of consequences then they are a bunch of SOB's. You can go hit licks and murder people being an atheist or you can do the same thing and believe in the Christian god.

I disagree with you about the majority of people. I think the majority of people aren't that stupid and will have the common sense to recognize that they can't molest little kids or slit their throats because "OH, WHO GIVES A **** WERE ALL GONNA DIE HA HA HA".


----------



## GaaraAgain

Sur said:


> First off. Adolf Hitler wasn't an atheist. In his autobio named _Mein Kampf_ he repeatedly makes statements that confirm his Christianity. Do a quick few searches and you'll see for yourself.
> 
> Second, people been hitting licks and murdering each other whether Christian or Muslim. Did you forget about the Crusades? They wore crosses on their chests while slitting killing people in the name of Christianity.
> 
> Third, please give me some evidence for those famous serial killers killing just because they were atheist or anything like that. I don't know of any.
> 
> As I said, if people act good just because they are scared of consequences then they are a bunch of SOB's. You can go hit licks and murder people being an atheist or you can do the same thing and believe in the Christian god.
> 
> I disagree with you about the majority of people. I think the majority of people aren't that stupid and will have the common sense to recognize that they can't molest little kids or slit their throats because "OH, WHO GIVES A **** WERE ALL GONNA DIE HA HA HA".


Truth. :yes

If anything, being atheist would make me *less* apt to do things like that because I wouldn't want to spend the only life that I have in prison. Being atheist doesn't make me exempt from the laws of man. So yeah, there is someone to judge me. It's called a jury of my peers.


----------



## ScrewedUpMentality

Sur said:


> First off. Adolf Hitler wasn't an atheist. In his autobio named _Mein Kampf_ he repeatedly makes statements that confirm his Christianity. Do a quick few searches and you'll see for yourself.
> 
> Second, people been hitting licks and murdering each other whether Christian or Muslim. Did you forget about the Crusades? They wore crosses on their chests while slitting killing people in the name of Christianity.
> 
> Third, please give me some evidence for those famous serial killers killing just because they were atheist or anything like that. I don't know of any.
> 
> As I said, if people act good just because they are scared of consequences then they are a bunch of SOB's. You can go hit licks and murder people being an atheist or you can do the same thing and believe in the Christian god.
> 
> I disagree with you about the majority of people. I think the majority of people aren't that stupid and will have the common sense to recognize that they can't molest little kids or slit their throats because "OH, WHO GIVES A **** WERE ALL GONNA DIE HA HA HA".


 You know what your right. if there was no heaven or hell this world be a better place huh? lol


----------



## Solomon's Tomb

Wait, China isn't a communist country anymore? When did this happen?


----------



## Sur

ScrewedUpMentality said:


> You know what your right. if there was no heaven or hell this world be a better place huh? lol


Lol yeah, it seems like it would.


----------



## Sur

Solomon's Tomb said:


> Wait, China isn't a communist country anymore? When did this happen?


Yeah its not communist, its a single-party socialist government. I think it's the closest thing to communist Russia though.


----------



## poltergeistfan91

I did not know that about China. But I do not really care about China.


----------



## Glacial

No, I do not admire forced religion or forced non-religion. Just because I am non-religious, does not mean I would want to force people to go along as well. In my opinion, the ideal government is one that would allow its citizens to decide on their personal religious, to include non-religious, beliefs.


----------



## laura024

I think people should have freedom of religion as long as it doesn't affect people who don't believe in it. The U.S. was founded on the premise of separation of church and state. Unfortunately religion is not always separate from the law, however, as we see clearly in the oppression of gay rights.


----------



## Otherside

No, I don't admire China. Theres to many issues there such as the forced abortions that I disagree with. I don't believe in any sort of god, doesn't mean I want religion outlawed, the same way I don't want religion forced on me.


----------



## Adversary

The idea of China being a secular nation with little or no religion is beyond ridiculous. China was never exclusively atheist. The attempt to outlaw religion did nothing, but force people to lie about their beliefs.


----------



## Dark Alchemist

Communism is a religion to many. 

I've been to China, its not completely religion-free. I saw a large number of people at Buddhist temples and a handful of churches. My cousin's nanny was an xtian and went to church on sundays. 

I had fun there and enjoyed my stay, but I worship my non-restricted internet.


----------



## Bec de Corbin

Solomon's Tomb said:


> _China, which is basically the birthplace of all religion_


Eh?
Unfortunately that statement is untrue.
The oldest plausible pseudo-religious rituals are on the European continent.(27k years ago)
Organized religious rituals(incl. specialized buildings) appear about 10k ys. ago in the Fertile Crescent and its proximity. Sky burial and cremation.


----------



## fredbloggs02

Sur said:


> First off. Adolf Hitler wasn't an atheist. In his autobio named _Mein Kampf_ he repeatedly makes statements that confirm his Christianity. Do a quick few searches and you'll see for yourself.
> 
> Second, people been hitting licks and murdering each other whether Christian or Muslim. Did you forget about the Crusades? They wore crosses on their chests while slitting killing people in the name of Christianity.
> 
> Third, please give me some evidence for those famous serial killers killing just because they were atheist or anything like that. I don't know of any.
> 
> As I said, if people act good just because they are scared of consequences then they are a bunch of SOB's. You can go hit licks and murder people being an atheist or you can do the same thing and believe in the Christian god.
> 
> I disagree with you about the majority of people. I think the majority of people aren't that stupid and will have the common sense to recognize that they can't molest little kids or slit their throats because "OH, WHO GIVES A **** WERE ALL GONNA DIE HA HA HA".


I've recently started Njal's Saga, a tragedy about a man whose enemies end up burning him alive in his home with his children... It sounds suspiciously like Hitler, what with the Valkyries, a universe without purpose only fortunate and unfortunate individuals, Valhalla and aristocratic leadership. When someone mentions heaven, they don't necessarily believe they will live forever. To say Hitler was a Christian may be true; nominally at least. The way he lived certainly resembled what I've heard so far of this dark Icelandic myth.


----------



## Soulsurvivor

Admire? No. But that's only because that word doesn't resonate with me in this context. There is a definite fondness, though, I have for China. And Japan.


----------



## atlex

Yes.


----------



## Crystalline

My admiring or not admiring China does not really have much to do with my nature as an atheist. I believe in letting people believe what they want, but at the same time, hold that it's basically up to the individual to discover what's the right fit for them, not be forced into it as a baby or by family members. So no.


----------



## Solomon's Tomb

Bec de Corbin said:


> Eh?
> Unfortunately that statement is untrue.
> The oldest plausible pseudo-religious rituals are on the European continent.(27k years ago)
> Organized religious rituals(incl. specialized buildings) appear about 10k ys. ago in the Fertile Crescent and its proximity. Sky burial and cremation.


I was thinking that because China is the birthplace of Astrology and Taoism, from which every other religion in the world draws from in one way or another. I didn't know the white-man made God.


----------



## tk123

Heck no! China has a horrible track record of human rights abuses and is probably the most animal abusing country in the world. The majority in China see animals as objects. Just because they are atheists (forced not enlightened atheists mind you due to the communist system of government) doesn't mean they are anything to be admired. Communism is an absurd, corrupt and inherently flawed system/philosophy that is unfair and cannot work in the long run. So I personally think of China as one of the more vile countries in the world at the moment. They being atheists don't win any points with me.


----------



## jc22

Ofcourse not. And China has so many religious people. It is oppressive.


----------



## Solomon's Tomb

tk123 said:


> (forced not *enlightened* atheists mind you due to the communist system of government)


Enlightenment isn't a concept atheists believe in, though. Gautama Buddha was enlightened. Richard Dawkins is not.


----------



## Dark Alchemist

Solomon's Tomb said:


> Enlightenment isn't a concept atheists believe in, though. Gautama Buddha was enlightened. Richard Dawkins is not.


Sorry to debunk your narrow definition:



> Cultural Dictionary
> Enlightenment definition
> 
> An intellectual movement of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries marked *by a celebration of the powers of human reason, a keen interest in science, the promotion of religious toleration, and a desire to construct governments free of tyranny.* Some of the major figures of the Enlightenment were David Hume, Immanuel Kant, John Locke, the Baron de Montesquieu, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, and Voltaire.


----------



## Noca

China is just another rat hole that lacks human rights.


----------



## ugh1979

Dark Alchemist said:


> Sorry to debunk your narrow definition:


I was just about to post the definition.


----------



## ShyBlueye

PHP:




 I don't see china becoming a greater superpower than america anytime soon at least. Economy wise we are the buyer they are the seller. Both of equal importance. Military wise we are out do them in almost every way. A powerful military and the desire to use it in potentially cruel fashions is truly what makes a country a superpower.

And as an atheist here I don't believe in any religion obviously and dislike Michael about them but I wish to neither abolish religion nor force nor force any believe on anyone.

Some view atheism as a belief as well and it is in a way belief that science holds all your answers. Take a philosophy class and it will make you think maybe theirs more to the world than science. I for one believe science can answer most if not all our questions in time.


----------



## wordscancutyoulikeglass

I like China as a country, it's always fascinated me, but I do not support the outlawing of religion.


----------



## Minipurz

ShyBlueye said:


> PHP:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some view atheism as a belief as well and it is in a way belief that science holds all your answers.


Funny how people keep putting things into atheism which arent there.
Atheism has NOTHING to do with science. Atheism isnt about worshipping modern science.

Atheism is disbelief in a god / diety. Thats it. Other than that all atheists is individuals with their own beliefs, imo you cant lump em all up in a group based on the fact that they dont believe in a god- well ofc you can do that as theres a definition of it "atheist" but that doesnt mean anything else is shared.

Some is all about chi and karma and what not, but still not believing in a god. Some is diehard "I can't see it I don't believe it" kinda people.

About admireing China, I admire the culture, as I admire most other cultures, because I am curious about people from other parts of the world than the tiny country where I live


----------



## F1X3R

Hadron said:


> I don't admire china, but i anticipate the day it'll overtake the usa as the biggest economy and military superpower in the world. Americans are just too cocky for my liking nowadays.


You anticipate the day when one of Israel's biggest allies is overtaken by China as top superpower?


----------



## ugh1979

F1X3R said:


> You anticipate the day when one of Israel's biggest allies is overtaken by China as top superpower?


What he said sounds perfectly valid to me. Did you think he wouldn't be able to say that since he's an Israeli? :?


----------



## fetisha

sorry I'm lost, what does china have to do with atheism?


----------



## ugh1979

digitalbath said:


> sorry I'm lost, what does china have to do with atheism?


That's where it's made.

Don't buy it. Only buy US made goods.

:lol


----------



## MrBakura91

I don't think any government should have that kind of control. No I dont admire China in this area if they step on peoples rights.


----------



## z01210

Minipurz said:


> Funny how people keep putting things into atheism which arent there.
> Atheism has NOTHING to do with science. Atheism isnt about worshipping modern science.
> 
> Atheism is disbelief in a god / diety. Thats it. Other than that all atheists is individuals with their own beliefs, imo you cant lump em all up in a group based on the fact that they dont believe in a god- well ofc you can do that as theres a definition of it "atheist" but that doesnt mean anything else is shared.


THIS


----------



## F1X3R

ugh1979 said:


> What he said sounds perfectly valid to me. Did you think he wouldn't be able to say that since he's an Israeli? :?


Of course he can say it, I'm just not sure where he's coming from.

If he lives there or cares about his country, wouldn't he be concerned if the US suffered a loss in power?


----------



## UltraShy

ScrewedUpMentality said:


> Im a atheist myself and NO i dont think this is good bcuz if a person doesn't believe that there is a Heaven or Hell, then people would do things without remorcse (I think that's how you spell it) *So i would to kill someone or rob someone, then i would be like "Who gives a *****, we all gonna die anyways" and that is the mentality of the majority of serial killers out there.


I see you're in Texas. You really feel like robbing somebody in Texas where wearing a gun isn't anything exotic? You could just stay home & get a similar effect playing Russian Roulette.


----------



## UltraShy

Solomon's Tomb said:


> Do you admire China for their outlawing of religion and mandatory suppression of faith?


No, I support freedom of religion. That means I support the right of people to believe & worship whatever they want no matter how totally ridiculous I feel it is.

Commies just replace god with worship of the almighty state. Either way you're just a sheep told by an authority what to do -- just changes that authority from a church to a government.


----------



## ugh1979

F1X3R said:


> Of course he can say it, I'm just not sure where he's coming from.


I'm not sure where you are coming from.



> If he lives there or cares about his country, wouldn't he be concerned if the US suffered a loss in power?


All he said was he anticipates it. He didn't say anything about not caring.


----------



## F1X3R

ugh1979 said:


> I'm not sure where you are coming from.
> 
> All he said was he anticipates it. He didn't say anything about not caring.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations

"Bilateral relations have evolved from an initial U.S. policy of sympathy and support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in 1948 to an unusual partnership that links a small but militarily powerful Israel, *dependent on the United States for its economic and military strength*, with the American superpower trying to balance other competing interests in the region."

Oh look what's on the front page of Yahoo! today, Iran might attack US bases for supporting Israel:

http://news.yahoo.com/iran-threatens-attacks-us-bases-event-war-143141162.html

Right though, the US is getting too cocky, so go China. :blank


----------



## wordtourmother

UltraShy said:


> Commies just replace god with worship of the almighty state. Either way you're just a sheep told by an authority what to do -- just changes that authority from a church to a government.


I really don't think the Chinese "worship" communism, and I don't think it's a "religion" at all over there. China's not communist anyways, and its leaders don't want to make it communist. They're happy to keep it as a totalitarian socialist state (communism requires that there be no government). As far as I can tell, the leaders are just ruthless pragmatists, and the citizens are just trying to get by just like anyone else in the world. I'm around a lot of people from China, and they're chasing after good paying jobs just like anyone else.

Back on topic: No, of course religion shouldn't be outlawed; that's some thought police **** there. As my grandfather said, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."


----------



## UltraShy

wordtourmother said:


> As far as I can tell, the leaders are just ruthless pragmatists, and *the citizens are just trying to get by just like anyone else in the world.* I'm around a lot of people from China, and they're chasing after good paying jobs just like anyone else.


The other year I heard an interesting comment from a commentator of Chinese ancestry. He said that the reason China's population doesn't rise up in violent revolution against their totalitarian state is because of China's massive economic growth.

I thought he made an excellent point. If you look around the world it seems the worst enemy of tyrants is a bunch of unemployed young men -- they tend to get real pissed & start violent revolutions. So long as they have enough toys to keep them distracted they fail to think much about philosophical matters like tyranny vs democracy. China's economy is doing well enough to provide enough distracting consumer goods to keep the boys happy.


----------



## F1X3R

Hadron said:


> At the end of the day it's all about interests. Up until 67, when israel beat all of its neighbours and more at once in war, american support for isrsel was pretty minimal.


Almost 50 years ago. Since then the US has done a lot for Israel, which is ironically where the resentment comes from.

It's all about interests though. Except for when you hold some vague idea of US arrogance. Then forget the US.

"Today, Israelis' greatest fear is not Iran, international isolation, the Boycott/Divestment/Sanctions Movement, or the Palestinians. Their greatest fear is loss of US support. Nothing else comes close."

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/the-ax...ort-than-of-the-iranian-bomb.premium-1.434615


----------



## ugh1979

F1X3R said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–United_States_relations
> 
> "Bilateral relations have evolved from an initial U.S. policy of sympathy and support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in 1948 to an unusual partnership that links a small but militarily powerful Israel, *dependent on the United States for its economic and military strength*, with the American superpower trying to balance other competing interests in the region."
> 
> Oh look what's on the front page of Yahoo! today, Iran might attack US bases for supporting Israel:
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/iran-threatens-attacks-us-bases-event-war-143141162.html
> 
> Right though, the US is getting too cocky, so go China. :blank


Yeah i'm sure everyone is aware of the ties between the US and Isreal, but I don't see what that has to do with someone predicting that China will become the biggest superpower. :?


----------



## F1X3R

ugh1979 said:


> Yeah i'm sure everyone is aware of the ties between the US and Isreal, but I don't see what that has to do with someone predicting that China will become the biggest superpower. :?


He is not just predicting it, his statement that, "Americans are too cocky for my liking now adays", implies that he is looking forward to it. Very arrogant, considering the US's role with Israel.



Hadron said:


> Lol, you just quoted the most left-wingist media source in israel. I don't agree with that article at all.
> 
> And anyway, the us helps israel in order to support its own interests (having more influence in the middle east). Putting pressure on israel to stop trading arms with china. Israel's arms exports are worth over twice than the aid it receives from the us (fourth in the world actually), and it could have been a lot higher if the us wasn't trying to choke it in order to prevent competition. And not letting israel sell to its potentially biggest market - china.
> 
> We are also slowly becoming more self-reliant. Almost all of the weapons i'm using in the army are israeli-made (guns, machine-guns, tanks, apc's, grenades etc). Pity we quitted on that combat plane project because of us pressure...


Israel has obviously benefited from the alliance much more than it has cost them, but you focus on the drawbacks.

But oh yes, us arrogant Americans and our freedom for all religions and races.


----------



## ugh1979

F1X3R said:


> He is not just predicting it, his statement that, "Americans are too cocky for my liking now adays", implies that he is looking forward to it. Very arrogant, considering the US's role with Israel.


Ah now see if you had quoted that part rather than the part about anticipating it I would have understood your issue. The fact you deleted the part about about 'Americans being too cocky' and just left the part about anticipating that China would become the superpower is what made me question you.


----------



## F1X3R

ugh1979 said:


> Ah now see if you had quoted that part rather than the part about anticipating it I would have understood your issue. The fact you deleted the part about about 'Americans being too cocky' and just left the part about anticipating that China would become the superpower is what made me question you.


I did quote that part and I didn't delete anything. I guess you didn't read his posts either.


----------



## ugh1979

F1X3R said:


> I did quote that part and I didn't delete anything. I guess you didn't read his posts either.


Ok my mistake, you did, but my question still stood as I couldn't see why you would question what is obvious to almost everyone. (i.e. that China will overtake the US as the dominant superpower this century)

I understand now what you were getting it but it was the way you worded it that caused confusion.


----------



## F1X3R

ugh1979 said:


> Ok my mistake, you did, but my question still stood as I couldn't see why you would question what is obvious to almost everyone. (i.e. that China will overtake the US as the dominant superpower this century)
> 
> I understand now what you were getting it but it was the way you worded it that caused confusion.


lol what caused the confusion was that you didn't read his posts. But we better not derail this thread much further.


----------



## ugh1979

F1X3R said:


> lol what caused the confusion was that you didn't read his posts. But we better not derail this thread much further.


No I can assure you it was your post. Hence why I quoted your post.

I didn't see how him saying 'how cocky Americans are' of any relevance to the fact that many people anticipate China to become the dominant superpower.


----------



## F1X3R

ugh1979 said:


> No I can assure you it was your post. Hence why I quoted your post.
> 
> I didn't see how him saying 'how cocky Americans are' of any relevance to the fact that many people anticipate China to become the dominant superpower.


Wait, I thought you didn't even see him make the "cocky Americans" comment?

Considering that comment, I obviously wasn't questioning his right to predict China overtaking the US, but his attitude towards it. But maybe I'm just a cocky American.

Or maybe you were confused about how I was using anticipation:

Usage note 
Despite claims that anticipate should only be used to mean "to perform (an action) or respond to (a question, etc.) in advance" or "to forestall," it has been used widely since the 18th century as a synonym for expect, _often with an implication of pleasure_: We anticipate a large turnout at the next meeting. This use is standard in all types of speech and writing.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anticipate


----------



## ugh1979

F1X3R said:


> Wait, I thought you didn't even see him make the "cocky Americans" comment?
> 
> Considering that comment, I obviously wasn't questioning his right to predict China overtaking the US, but his attitude towards it. But maybe I'm just a cocky American.
> 
> Or maybe you were confused about how I was using anticipation:
> 
> Usage note
> Despite claims that anticipate should only be used to mean "to perform (an action) or respond to (a question, etc.) in advance" or "to forestall," it has been used widely since the 18th century as a synonym for expect, _often with an implication of pleasure_: We anticipate a large turnout at the next meeting. This use is standard in all types of speech and writing.
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anticipate


Or maybe you were confused about his use of the word anticipation? Your chosen definition is irelevant.

You read his post one way, I read it another, and until he comes back and confirms what he meant then there's no point debating it.


----------



## F1X3R

ugh1979 said:


> Or maybe you were confused about his use of the word anticipation? Your chosen definition is irelevant.
> 
> You read his post one way, I read it another, and until he comes back and confirms what he meant then there's no point debating it.


And there never was, was there?! Since I was talking to him!


----------



## moya

Socialism and religion are pretty similar. Both require the individual to give up their individual will and sovereignty by force, and give it to a higher power. In the former it's the state or the collective, in the latter it's the church and 'God'. This is why a lot of socialists movements have been anti-religious. It's the only other form of mind control that is as powerful as collectivism.

So no. I don't think outlawing 1 religion and forcing another on people is the way to go. People should be free to believe whatever they want.


----------



## Noroshi

Nope. I've been to China. Spent three weeks there. I'm not going to claim that made me an expert in any way. But having a watcher from the Communist Party following my group around at all times gave me a lot to think about.

In the end, in regards to religion, China just wants to get rid of anything that could be used a root for rebellion. There's nothing to admire about the way the Chinese government treats religion even if you're not a believer.


----------



## Noroshi

QuackQuack said:


> Yeah, that's so much worse than the US. Our government doesn't have spies in Muslim churches to keep tabs on them or anything.


The US government also doesn't toss you in a reeducation camp if you disagree openly with the president.


----------



## moya

QuackQuack said:


> Don't you mean "capitalism and religion"?


Nope, I mean socialism and anything else that neglects individual sovereignty for collective power and will.


----------



## Solomon's Tomb

Holy crap, this thread's still alive? Well, I admire Hong Kong and look forward to their takeover of America. My grandchildren will speak Mandarin and I'm okay with that.


----------



## Patriot

Solomon's Tomb said:


> So, I'm not criticizing atheism here or anything, but I do want to ask all atheists out there: Do you admire China for their outlawing of religion and mandatory suppression of faith? I just find it funny that China, which is basically the birthplace of all religion is now almost exclusively atheist...
> 
> Anyway, as far as China goes, some parts of it are really cool, like Hong Kong, Shanghai and Singapore. But much of the country is in misery, ruled by communism and suppression, part of which dictates the abolition of religion. So, what do (and I'm speaking specifically to American atheists here) you think of China?


Why would you admire china on those grounds juts cause you're an atheist?


----------



## Dark Alchemist

QuackQuack said:


> Muslim churches


Fail...


----------



## StGlen333

laura024 said:


> I think people should have freedom of religion as long as it doesn't affect people who don't believe in it. The U.S. was founded on the premise of separation of church and state. Unfortunately religion is not always separate from the law, however, as we see clearly in the oppression of gay rights.


Actually the US was founded on the establishment clause that the government would not mandate any official federal religion. The phrase "seperation of church and state" was pulled out of context by our court system from a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist minister. About 80 years later the courts started using this to actually erect a "wall" making it a two-way street. The original intent of the Constitution was a one-way street. It was not intended to keep religion out of the government, but to keep the government out of religion. This is our earliest example of the Supreme Court abusing it's power, redefining the Constitution, and "legislating from the bench." So long story short, no, we were not founded on this premise.


----------



## Chieve

china doesnt have a good reputation with me due to its communism

just because a county outlaws religion doesnt really mean ill admire it haha


----------



## Olesya

Solomon's Tomb said:


> Holy crap, this thread's still alive? *Well, I admire Hong Kong and look forward to their takeover of America.* My grandchildren will speak Mandarin and I'm okay with that.


I do too. And I also won't be upset if my children speak Mandarin.


----------



## Flint

As a person who was once a Catholic and once an atheist, I believe its ridiculous! Telling people what they can and can't believe is stupid and it leans more towards people being slaves than a democracy.


----------



## low

Solomon's Tomb said:


> So, I'm not criticizing atheism here or anything, but I do want to ask all atheists out there: Do you admire China for their outlawing of religion and mandatory suppression of faith? I just find it funny that China, which is basically the birthplace of all religion is now almost exclusively atheist...
> 
> Anyway, as far as China goes, some parts of it are really cool, like Hong Kong, Shanghai and Singapore. But much of the country is in misery, ruled by communism and suppression, part of which dictates the abolition of religion. So, what do (and I'm speaking specifically to American atheists here) you think of China?


I don't admire china in general. It has some serious human and animal rights, and state suppression issues but this is not due to a lack of religion. I have nothing against Chinese people in western countries. Infact I never hear any problems from them, unlike our Muslim friends. I don't think I'm too qualified to judge Chinese people in China. There seems to be a bit of callousness sometimes. I don't know though.

I doubt China is the birthplace of religion too. Tens of thousands of year old burials with supposed religious items have been found.


----------



## simian4455

Solomon's Tomb said:


> Anyway, as far as China goes, some parts of it are really cool, like Hong Kong, Shanghai and Singapore. But much of the country is in misery, ruled by communism and suppression, part of which dictates the abolition of religion. So, what do (and I'm speaking specifically to American atheists here) you think of China?


When did Singapore become part of China?


----------



## faction

If there is no religion(or minimal religion) in country it doesn't mean it's greatest country to live in. Look at Belarus for example. Their leader is banned to visit other European countries because of his cruelty.

I don't know much about China, but I know about how they limit information to their people.

Atheists are not automatically good people. Religion does not correlate with ethics.


----------



## Greenwick

I feel the same about China as many Christians feel about the FLDS and the Westboro Baptist Church. There are groups which may purport to believe what I believe, but their existence is hardly proof that what I believe inevitably leads to their behavior.

North Korea is an interesting case as well. The country used to be a Christian one, and very rigid in its social structure. The society is supposedly brand new and egalitarian and atheist, but its society is in many ways identical to what it was prior to the changeover.


----------



## balsamella

Each person should be able to make their own choices.


----------



## HanginInThere

No way! When I lived there, lying is just the norm, so hard to find one person who is honest. I know that lying happens in every country. But not to the same scale as in China. While they are brought up with Confusianism, this isn't the same as the principle found in the Bible. Money has become the god in China and everything revolves around it. Once you start talking about deeper subjects, usually the conversation goes back to money. People also view you in terms of how much you own. If you're white, they automatically think you're rich. When finding a marriage mate, foreigners are highly sought after or wealthy persons. It is money and prestige over personality and values in China


----------



## Blueshine

Communism is an ideology. Atheism is not. I'm a tad sick of people linking them together.
I don't like China for its communist government and its lack of human rights.
I however support a humanist secular government that supports asking questions, demanding evidence, being curious and open and using logic and reason in their decisions.


----------



## Ready To Freak Out

I love how this has gone totally off the rails. And even before it did, how only one person knew that the OP's premise was false: religion isn't banned in China. Certain groups, like the Falun Gong, are subject to harassment and human rights violations, but more mainstream religions are allowed and proceed unmolested.

Also, Singapore is not part of China.


----------



## warrent

No, I do not China trying to outlaw faith. Some people need faith. It's the only thing that keeps some people from going insane. I'm personally not a religious guy, but sometimes religion is all someone has left when they have nothing else.


----------



## Adversary

Ready To Freak Out said:


> I love how this has gone totally off the rails. And even before it did, how only one person knew that the OP's premise was false: religion isn't banned in China. Certain groups, like the Falun Gong, are subject to harassment and human rights violations, but more mainstream religions are allowed and proceed unmolested.
> 
> Also, Singapore is not part of China.


Its not an entirely false premise. China does not ban religion anymore but it did try to outlaw it around the Cultural Revolution with statistics showing that most people were irreligious. I believe that's where the OP got this info from.


----------



## Ready To Freak Out

Adversary said:


> Its not an entirely false premise. China does not ban religion anymore but it did try to outlaw it around the Cultural Revolution with statistics showing that most people were irreligious. I believe that's where the OP got this info from.


So did the USSR, but speaking about it as if it's an ongoing thing is still wrong. The nature of the debate is good; too many atheists seem to ignore things like historical fact in favour of waxing poetic about the evils of religion and how great it would be if it were banned, so I'm all for an opportunity to discuss how poorly that plays out in reality. However, let's have some factual accuracy here.


----------



## A Sense of Purpose

Solomon's Tomb said:


> So, I'm not criticizing atheism here or anything, but I do want to ask all atheists out there: Do you admire China for their outlawing of religion and mandatory suppression of faith?


No, I admire Sweden for its secular nature derived from common sense and not forced with brutality, communism and threat.


----------



## The Sleeping Dragon

No as an atheist I think freedom of religion is one of our most important rights.


----------



## apx24

Well, the Communist Party of China since 1949 has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, no religion can claim to have done the same. Also, Tibet before 1959 was an unequal feudal society with slavery and serfdom before the Communists outlawed it. 

Also, there are religious people in China, you get Christians, Buddhists, Taoists and Muslims over there, whilst the government keeps an eye on these religions, they are practiced over there, so it's not as bad as North Korea for example


----------



## MachineSupremacist

China is a totalitarian capitalist state, _and it is working!!1!!_

Kill it with fire. Well, not really, but their political system is still an unclean abomination.


----------



## apx24

MachineSupremacist said:


> China is a totalitarian capitalist state, _and it is working!!1!!_
> 
> Kill it with fire. Well, not really, but their political system is still an unclean abomination.


In your opinion, what counts as the abomination, the authoritarian political system or the capitalist economic system?


----------



## MachineSupremacist

apx24 said:


> In your opinion, what counts as the abomination, the authoritarian political system or the capitalist economic system?


1.3 billion people live with a government that makes censorship software mandatory on all computers and they have no say in this. The economic system is sleezy but the politics are what make it especially intolerable.

In China, the government aids and abets corporate greed and protects itself. We have some of that fascist idiocy in the United States too but not like that.

Atheists as a whole tend to be attracted to the idea of "no gods, no masters" one way or the other. It is not easy to sell the idea that one guy or group of wise masters should be in charge to people who are spiritually self-sufficient.

That is not always true though.

To understand why Communists were atheists you need to understand that not all religions involve supernatural entities. Karl Marx sold salvation to the oppressed. Mao and Stalin became gods on Earth, sort of.

Nearly any guiding document or forceful personality can become a target for religious adoration, and if you thought fundies were bad and annoying when they thumped Bibles then you haven't seen what happens when you feed the same sort of person some obscure tract by Ludwig Von Mises and watch them follow that. People are weird. It doesn't really matter what's in the document; there are groups out there who make the Constitution into a religion, insist on forcibly and undemocratically dialing the United States back to 1792, and kind of miss the whole point in the process. Again, people are weird.

To summarize my views, fundamentalism=bad and authoritarianism=bad and authoritarianism=fundamentalism.


----------



## Brasilia

Present day China is *VERY* religious.


----------



## shammie

As an Atheist, I don't admire China. 

And as a man, I don't like Tuesdays. 

I just really like non sequacity.


----------



## komorikun

I like their one-child policy. And I suppose it's good that the government is doing a much better job than India.


----------



## apx24

MachineSupremacist said:


> 1.3 billion people live with a government that makes censorship software mandatory on all computers and they have no say in this. The economic system is sleezy but the politics are what make it especially intolerable.
> 
> In China, the government aids and abets corporate greed and protects itself. We have some of that fascist idiocy in the United States too but not like that.
> 
> Atheists as a whole tend to be attracted to the idea of "no gods, no masters" one way or the other. It is not easy to sell the idea that one guy or group of wise masters should be in charge to people who are spiritually self-sufficient.
> 
> That is not always true though.
> 
> To understand why Communists were atheists you need to understand that not all religions involve supernatural entities. Karl Marx sold salvation to the oppressed. Mao and Stalin became gods on Earth, sort of.
> 
> Nearly any guiding document or forceful personality can become a target for religious adoration, and if you thought fundies were bad and annoying when they thumped Bibles then you haven't seen what happens when you feed the same sort of person some obscure tract by Ludwig Von Mises and watch them follow that. People are weird. It doesn't really matter what's in the document; there are groups out there who make the Constitution into a religion, insist on forcibly and undemocratically dialing the United States back to 1792, and kind of miss the whole point in the process. Again, people are weird.
> 
> To summarize my views, fundamentalism=bad and authoritarianism=bad and authoritarianism=fundamentalism.


I understand what you are saying, I dont know enough about Chinese economics to know whether the government protects corporate greed or not.

I guess nationalism can be regarded as a religion as well then, used by governments to oppress the people, as has been the case for centuries. and yeah people are weird lol



komorikun said:


> I like their one-child policy. And I suppose it's good that the government is doing a much better job than India.


I'm so glad you brought this up, compare China to India and then you can see how good a job the Communist Party of China has done. Indians can vote, but hundreds of millions of them can barely afford to feed themselves and many live in appalling poverty whilst a handful of extremely wealthy people are living the good life. This happens in China as well, but to a much lesser extent. Democracy is good, but if you can't afford to feed yourself or your family or sustain a decent quality of life, it ultimately means nothing.

I know I'm digressing from the original point that the OP was making here.


----------



## rg8813

*As Athiests, do you admire China?*

No.


----------



## saganist

Absolutely not. People need to learn and understand themselves that religion is harmful. Especially the abrahamic religions.


----------



## Li Rui Ke

I'd love to pull the Asian card and say something about standing by my ancestoral homeland, but no. I'd much rather that the government discourage religion using a logical argument instead of banning it for no clear reason.

Which is all a rather moot point because although 90% of the population is atheist/agnostic, I don't think the government really cares anymore.


----------



## Starstuff13

Someone may have pointed this out already(i'm not reading all of the posts), but singapore is not in China. Get your facts straight. But then again, religious people rarely do. Why are so many religious people drawn to the atheism section? Not once have I (and I suspect others fellow atheists) gone to the religious/spiritual section and tried to make petty points about how a particular religious society wasn't perfect. Could it be that you yourself are having doubts? Atheism really seems to intrigue a lot of religious folks.


----------



## mestizo1991

china, the ussr and most of the communist regimes upheld the same socially conservative policies that religious fundamentalists promote today. They were anti-abortion, anti-gay, and anti-divorce. Also they had massive cults of personality such as in the cases of Mao and Stalin or as you can now see with Kim il-Sung or Kim Jung Il in North Korea. So really nations like China are upholding their own type of faith based nonsense.


----------



## simian4455

Solomon's Tomb said:


> So, I'm not criticizing atheism here or anything, but I do want to ask all atheists out there: Do you admire China for their outlawing of religion and mandatory suppression of faith? I just find it funny that China, which is basically the birthplace of all religion is now almost exclusively atheist...
> 
> Anyway, as far as China goes, some parts of it are really cool, like Hong Kong, Shanghai and Singapore. But much of the country is in misery, ruled by communism and suppression, part of which dictates the abolition of religion. So, what do (and I'm speaking specifically to American atheists here) you think of China?


Actually, after reading the Wikipedia entry on 'Religion in China', I suspect you are grossly wrong in your assertions. This is taken from Wikipedia:



> The People's Republic of China was established 1 October 1949. Its government is officially atheist, having viewed religion as emblematic of feudalism and foreign colonialism, and maintained separation of state and the church. This changed during the Cultural Revolution, in 1966 and 1967. The Cultural Revolution led to a policy of elimination of religions; a massive number of places of worship were destroyed.[47]
> 
> This policy relaxed considerably in the late 1970s at the end of the Cultural Revolution and more tolerance of religious expression has been permitted since the 1980s. The 1978 Constitution of the People's Republic of China guarantees "freedom of religion" in Article 36. The policy regarding religious practice in China states that "No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens because they do, or do not believe in religion. The state protects normal religious activities", and continues with the statement that: "nobody can make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt social order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state."[48] Since the mid-1980s there has been a massive program to rebuild Buddhist and Taoist temples. In recent times, the government has expressed support for Buddhism and Taoism, organizing the World Buddhist Forum in 2006 and the International Forum on the Daodejing in 2007. The government sees these religions as an integral part of Chinese culture.[49]
> 
> There are five religions recognized by the state, namely Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism.[50] To some degree, the government also controls the institutions in the religions it recognizes.[51] In October 2007, the new statute of China cites religion as an important element of citizens' life.[52] However, the Chinese government has also banned certain new religious movements.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China#Modern_history


----------



## notthatsure

Solomon's Tomb said:


> Wait, China isn't a communist country anymore? When did this happen?


They are, they just aren't a cult of personality driven communist country like when Mao was in charge...also many people see the country phasing away from "communism". Rudimentary free market is rampant in China, there are stock exchanges, private business, and mass produced ones as well (I.E. McDonalds, Pizza Hut, shopping chains.). Their tourism marketing is also highly publicized and they freely allow members of non-communist countries to pass on through and throw money into their personal economy. I would have to say China is the least communist of the communist countries in the world.

Ask me about North Korea, lol/


----------

