# Choline capsules or powder??so far I am cured!!!



## Sickseed

What first grabbed my attention is the discovery that introversion is physiological (as opposed to shyness, which is behavioral). Extroverts and introverts actually use different neurotransmitters and different neural pathways to the brain. Introverts' dominant neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, is associated with the energy-conserving parasympathetic nervous systems and with moving memories into long-term storage. Because introverts operate heavily in long-term memory, when speaking we tend to pause or speak more slowly than most extroverts are comfortable with. I can certainly relate to this, as I'm sure anyone who's spoken with me much would agree.
I clearly use to exhibit:

•Reduce eye contact when speaking to focus on collecting words. 
•Start talking in the middle of a thought. 
•Have a good memory but take a long time to retrieve memories. 
•Can forget things they know well — might stumble around when explaining their job or temporarily forget a word they want to use. 

•May think they told you something when they just have thought it. 
•Rehearse things before speaking (even for casual conversation). 
•May not be aware of their thoughts unless they write or talk about them. 
•Clearer about ideas, thoughts, and feelings after sleeping on them. 
•Immerse themselves thoroughly in a very few subjects.

Acetylcholine is one of the major neurotransmitters and requires choline for its synthesis. Adequate acetylcholine levels in the brain are believed to be protective against certain types of dementia, including Alzheimer's disease. Human studies are needed to determine whether dietary choline might be useful in the prevention of dementia.


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## FearNoMore

So you are taking choline and it is working for you? How much, what type do you take?


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## Sickseed

The choline that is available in Australia is sold in 500ml caps or powder and is marketed for liver support and function. I take 4 times the recommenced dose overdosing has not caused any effects other than slight tremors and fishy body odour. Mentally memory function is a lot faster short term memory works better during crowded gatherings and environments where extroverts are getting hyped on small talk. I actually enjoy and can compete in these environments now.
Nothing else has worked like this before for example St Johns Wort and SSR’s produce serotonin this may help anxiety but not the effects of introverted nero systems affected by the extrovert dominated world. Introverts use **** loads of Acetylcholine for there internal world. My simple theory is introverts need more Acetylcholine than the extroverted systems do because extroverts have one reality and introverts have 2 one which is an internal reality constructed out of real memory and experiences and subconscious processes usually negative due to the low levels of Acetylcholine. An introvert’s brain is a major gas guzzler of Acetylcholine.


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## FearNoMore

Thanks for the information.


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## DavidPT40

So acetylcholine helps your memory? Has it done anything to lessen your anxiety?


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## DavidPT40

Come on, we need ANSWERS.

You cant just post something with a title that says "I'm cured from social anxiety" then just copy and paste some stuff from a website then not tell us about the cure!

Heres what we need to know:

How long have you been taking choline?
How much do you take?
Why do you think this has cured you?
Have you tested yourself in social situations?
What effect does choline have on you, mental, physcial, motivation?


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## DavidPT40

I went out and bought some choline in the form of Lecithin. While buying the Lecithin, I saw a bottle of something called "Policosanol". Knowing that alcohols and beta-blockers end in -ol, I bought it too. $4 for the Lecithin, $8 for the Policosanol.

Choline really does work. It produces motivation and focus. I was talking alot tonight, not worried about my anxiety, and being very witty. Good stuff. 

Policosanol is an over-the-counter beta-blocker that reduces adrenaline. Excellent. I was able to speak clearly, bring my thoughts into words very quickly, and not have to worry when speaking in front of strangers about my voice shaking.

Result: Choline (in the form of Lecithin), and Policosanol showed so much promise tonight that I am going to step it up tomorrow. I'm going to take more risks, see what it takes to get myself nervous (physically).


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## Sickseed

Your better off just getting choline it is the most potent there is, also Acetyl L-Carnitine.

Here are the babies here if you are in Australia musashi make the most potent **** going round. I forgot to mention about Acetyl L-Carnitine it is much more expensive and much more potent you could go on a game show with this ****!!

http://www.musashi.com.au/cpa/htm/htm_f ... _store.asp

http://www.musashi.com.au/cpa/htm/htm_f ... _store.asp

I urge everyone here to try this :banana


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## binx005

I never realized that i was an introvert until i read this. I always thought i was in between introvert and extrovert. But i must be an introvert because i do speak slowly and i have bad short term memory but good long term memory. Interesting.


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## DavidPT40

You can get L-Acetyl Choline relatively cheap from 1fast400. 75 grams for $7. I bought 3, and they gave me a discount for a price of $18.

So, I was *definately* deficient on choline. My memory and speach have improved (they were excellent to begin with). 

I came across an interesting abstract that said people with Social Anxiety had lower than usual levels of Choline, Creatine, and something else. It said the "Signal to Noise Ratio" was lower with these substances. Signal to noise ratio, what are those?

Earlier today, I had to indavertantly test my Policosanol. I got into an argument with somebody, and that got my adrenaline flowing. I also had a cup of coffee. I went back to my room and took 40mg of Policosanol, and all signs of adrenaline dissipated (shaking hands, heart rate, etc).


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## FearNoMore

I purchased choline last night and took 1300mg last night and 1300mg this morning. I noticed a difference within an hour. The fogginess of my brain went away, and I was more relaxed and talkative. Being skeptical, I will reserve judgement until I have taken this nutrient for awhile. It seems very promissing for me so far though. Thank you sickseed.


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## Mngirl

*?*

What is the dominant nueorotransmitter for extroverts? (just curious-Im intrigued)


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## Restless Mind

I've been eaing lecithin granules for a while now to combat my acne. I have not noticed any difference in my SA.


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## DavidPT40

I've been doing more testing, still working well. I'm making progress.

Heres my hypothesis, lecithin (choline) creates acetylcholine. Its the additional acetylcholine that is providing the confidence and positive results. 

This stuff is not a sedative, for me it just provides me with confidence and boosts my self-esteem. The biggest dose I've tried so far is 1 gram of choline. I might experiment with larger doses when my 225grams of Acetylcholine arrives.


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## FearNoMore

I am taking 3,250mg per day, spread out during the day. I am still seeing good results. I haven't needed to take any of my Klonopin since I started. I wasn't aware that choline affects dopamine. Choline is need for the body to produce Acetylcholine, another neurotransmitter.

The choline is not sedating for me either, it does calm me though.


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## DavidPT40

Opps, my mistake. I accidentaly typed dopamine when I meant acetylcholine.

I came across and abstract talking about the anxiety/fear reducing powers of acetylcholine

*Endogenous acetylcholine in the dorsal hippocampus reduces anxiety through actions on nicotinic and muscarinic1 receptors.

*



> Dorsal hippocampal cholinergic modulation of behavior in different tests of anxiety was investigated by direct injection of the muscarinic M1 and M2 receptor antagonists, pirenzepine and gallamine, and the nicotinic receptor antagonist mecamylamine. In the social interaction test, the anxiogenic effect of pirenzepine (30-100 ng) provided evidence for a tonic cholinergic anxiolytic action mediated by postsynaptic M1 receptors. The anxiogenic action of mecamylamine (30 and 100 ng) was most likely mediated by its action of presynaptic nicotinic receptors to reduce acetylcholine release. Gallamine (10-1,000 ng) was without effect, suggesting that M2 receptors in this brain region do not play a significant role in this behavioral test. On Trial 1 in the elevated plus-maze, the receptor antagonists were without any effect, but in those with a previous 5-min experience of the plus-maze pirenzepine and mecamylamine had anxiogenic effects in the dose range of 30-300 ng; gallamine (100 and 300 ng) was without significant effect.


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## FearNoMore

DavidPT40,

Please keep us posted about Acetyl L-Carnitine. I am interested in perhaps adding that to my choline, if things continue to go well. The choline has helped to sharpen my sluggish brain, this helps in social situations because I don't "freeze up" as much. I much prefer taking the choline to taking klonopin.


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## DavidPT40

I am still having success with choline. My acetylcholine hasn't arrived yet, so I've been taking lecithin.

My fear is just so lessened, and I'm able to make quick responses where before I would have froze up.

I just bought some soy lecithin granules. They dont taste half bad (apple cinnamon flavor). The only confusing part is trying to find out how much choline I'm actually getting. 

On the back it has listed 
Phosphatidyl Choline: 1350mg
Total Choline : 200mg

Hmmmm.


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## Sickseed

Yep that choline sure whips arse!!! 
Just a question you say you are getting acetylcholine?? 
What is this?. pure synthesized acetylcholine?? I have never heard of this before??
Where did you order it from??


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## Sickseed

All my life my right eye lid dropped a little more than my left eye lid. But after taking acetylcholine precursors my eyes left and right now match like an extroverts. Guess my brain was just low on gas.


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## R4ph4el

Sickseed, it's like you're speaking about a miracle pill...I don't know wether I should believe all of it


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## Sickseed

It’s the cure for introversion not SA which is the anxiety caused by introversion.
All the support out there is designed by extroverts for extroverts with extroverted psychological problems. The introverts just got passed the by without much research in to the core problem. Which is!! The brain is being starved of a neurotransmitter!! All the SSR’s in the world will make you feel nothing so you will not feel anxiety, but how can anything work to make you better like therapy and **** when the real problem is not being corrected ( the brain cloud). Exercise helps produce acetylcholine but not enough so you will go over board at the gym and exhaust your self.
Natural sources that are the richest in choline are eggs and beef liver (usually found in party cracker dip). Do not go out and buy a beef liver, cook and eat it unless you want to throw up for the rest of the day.


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## DavidPT40

Cure for introversion? Lol, introversion isn't a sickness.

Choline works so well because it helps you focus and its a natural anti-anxiety agent. So your focused without anxiety.

I bought the pure acetylcholine from Bulk Nutrition. It hasn't arrived yet.

I went to go get new glasses today, and I was able to chat it up with the doctor and other folks. Very little to no anxiety. 

Choline removes a major portion of the SA. I'm introverted by nature, so I don't have alot of motivation to talk to new people, but I do enjoy talking to my friends and people that have common interests. I've noticed my frequency of talking (with my friends) has increased 50-100%. When I have something to say, I feel no problem with butting in. Its almost as if choline adds a bit of arrogance.


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## R4ph4el

mmm I wonder if I can find it in a store nearby, still a bit skeptic, even high doses of SSR's do nothing for me btw (and I tried lots), beta-blockers work neither


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## DavidPT40

GNC sells a potent form of choline called "Soy Lecithin Granules".

Walmart sells a less potent form called "Soy Lecithin".

Raphael, what do you mean that beta-blockers did nothing? Did they not stop your heart from racing, or your hands from shaking?


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## R4ph4el

DavidPT40 said:


> GNC sells a potent form of choline called "Soy Lecithin Granules".
> 
> Walmart sells a less potent form called "Soy Lecithin".
> 
> Raphael, what do you mean that beta-blockers did nothing? Did they not stop your heart from racing, or your hands from shaking?


nope they don't... :con


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## jasonz

After reading this thread, I went to visit my nearby supplement store. I only saw the store selling " lecithin" like 1200mg. However, the choline contains inside the lecithin according to the content box the choline is only 27mg out of the 1200mg which the others like insitsol also contains inside the 1200mg. Should I buy this and try it out? Or should I go to the net and order it but it takes weeks to come.

Anymore update from you guys? How's it now? Still working wonderful for you?


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## Eclectic

Can I try this product? http://www.netrition.com/now_lecithin_page.html

One serving has 10 g of lechithin. Is that the equivalent of 10 grams of choline?


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## pjmc

im confused.. so far ive gathered that there are:

-lecithin
-acetylcholine
-phosphatidylcholine
-L-acetyl-choline
....

uhh yeah, so appreciate if someone could tell me EXACTLY what we're referring to here. I would like to try this out, can someone direct me to a few sites? Also, I cant find this stuff on bulknutrition/1fast400 as someone stated earlier...


thanks guys


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## LastChild

Can you get it at most drugstores? Or is it a healthfood store type of pill...


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## jasonz

the capulse do you mean fish oil type of capsule?
i would like to noe if i were to buy lecithin 1200mg per capsule which contains bout 27mg of choline inside. is it realy worth buying since it is in such small dosage? i would really want to try them for my social anxiety disorder....


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## Eclectic

Here are some choline products:

http://www.1fast400.com/advanced_search ... ds=choline
and
http://www.physicianformulas.com/store/ ... me=Choline

I was planning on going to my local vitamin store to look or the Twinlab choine bitatrate ( http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=4763 ) last night,but I came 4 minutes late. It was closing time and the security guard was standing in front of the door, so didn't dare attempt to enter.


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## matthew

pjmc said:


> im confused.. so far ive gathered that there are:
> 
> -lecithin
> -acetylcholine
> -phosphatidylcholine
> -L-acetyl-choline
> ....
> 
> uhh yeah, so appreciate if someone could tell me EXACTLY what we're referring to here. I would like to try this out, can someone direct me to a few sites? Also, I cant find this stuff on bulknutrition/1fast400 as someone stated earlier...
> 
> thanks guys


Ok I am a little confused myself, but I have done a little (_very little_) research. This is my understanding. Acetycholine is what Sickseed is saying we need more of. But you can't buy acetylcholine pure so you use one of its two precursors to increase the amount of acetylcholine produced by the body. The first is Acetyl L-Carnitine. This provides the Acety part of _Acety_choline. The second is choline. Fairly obvious that is the choline part of Acety_choline_. Apperently using either one will result in an increase in Acetycholine.

Choline is basically a nutrient. Much like magnesium and calcium are sold in different forms, ex: magnesium oxide & calcium carbonate, choline is also sold in different forms. One form is phosphatidyl choline.

Lecithin is a generic name for a combination of choline and insitsol. There is no real standard for what the proportion of insitsol and choline should be. Also there is a completely different supplement that is called lecithin so you have to be careful when buying it. 
_On a side note insitsol is also sold as a miricle cure for anxiety disorders. If anyone has any experience with it it would be nice to hear.

And to David; it would be nice to get your comparison of taking lecithin (with insitsol) vs. pure choline. _

In Davids case he bought lecithin. Again a mix of choline and insitsol. The choline in that mix came in the form of phosphatidyl choline with 200 mg of _choline_ and 1150 mg of the _]phosphatidyl_ chemical.

I hope that helps cure up any confusion. And if my information is completly wrong (As it probably is) I hope somebody corrects me.


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## Caedmon

I am confused. If introverts are _high_ in acetylcholine (or is it, high in those receptors, or overactive in ACh circuits, I never know), then is the introversion *caused* by the acetylcholine or does *introversion* cause increased release and expression of presynaptic/ postsynaptic receptors or circuit activation?

If intoverts are high in ACh, why would supplementation cause less introversion? If you're already high in a certain neurochemical, wouldn't supplementing it be unneccessary? In fact, it sounds like it could be counterproductive.

Could ACh be counterproductive wrt anxiety (I know we were talking about introversion, but still...) since it is excitatory and agonizes NMDA-type glutamate receptors?

Since extroversion is tied to dopamine, wouldn't dopamine "boosting" (of some sort) increase extraversion instead?

*****

Also two side notes:

- Ginkgo biloba is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. It is very potent, in fact. 
- Are you this author?: http://afongen.com/blog/archives/000355.php


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## FearNoMore

I have been camping for a week so have been unable to post for a while. I don't want to add to any hype, as I don't think that choline is a miracle pill. However, I have done well taking the choline for about two weeks now. It is choline that I am taking, not lecithin or anything else. I have been able to stop taking Klonopin and my anxiety has been manageable overall.
I believe the theory is that some of our brains may be lacking in acetycholine(ACH) and taking choline or perhaps other supplements will increase our ACH. All of our bodies are so different that I'm sure choline won't help everybody, but it is worth a try if you haven't tried it already. I will continue to take choline (3,250mg/day) as long as it continues to benefit me. I will also post any updates here so those interested can follow along.
I have very high hopes about choline, and like the fact that it is a nutrient and not a drug. However, I realize that sometimes things stop working for various reasons. There is also the dreaded placebo affect which could be involved, but for now I am enjoying getting considerable benefit from taking choline.


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## FearNoMore

btw, I get the choline at The Vitamin Cottage, a store similar to GNC


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## spb123

...


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## idonthave_SA

go see my topic on psychotropin, this formula
works a lot with acetylcholine ...

http://socialanxietysupport.com/viewtopic.php?t=49407


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## Caedmon

FearNoMore said:


> I believe the theory is that some of our brains may be lacking in acetycholine(ACH) and taking choline or perhaps other supplements will increase our ACH.


Whose brains would lack this? I am curious to know how I could find out more. All I can ascertain is that introverts have more than usual. I am introverted so I don't see why I would supplement for something if I am already higher-than-normal in it; it sounds as if it would be like taking a cold shower if I couldn't sleep. Maybe I am reading things wrong. :stu



> I have very high hopes about choline, and like the fact that it is a nutrient and not a drug


I will mostly bite my tongue, because it's probably a semantic distinction. Choline is a chemical substance. Chemicals don't know if they are drugs or something else. But, regardless, there are "drugs" which are amino acids such as choline - levadopa and gabapentin are good examples of this. In fact, things from minerals (lithium) to plants (morphine) are often prescribed as "drugs".


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## FearNoMore

Caedmon said:


> FearNoMore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the theory is that some of our brains may be lacking in acetycholine(ACH) and taking choline or perhaps other supplements will increase our ACH.
> 
> 
> 
> Whose brains would lack this? I am curious to know how I could find out more. All I can ascertain is that introverts have more than usual. I am introverted so I don't see why I would supplement for something if I am already higher-than-normal in it; it sounds as if it would be like taking a cold shower if I couldn't sleep. Maybe I am reading things wrong. :stu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have very high hopes about choline, and like the fact that it is a nutrient and not a drug
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I will mostly bite my tongue, because it's probably a semantic distinction. Choline is a chemical substance. Chemicals don't know if they are drugs or something else. But, regardless, there are "drugs" which are amino acids such as choline - levadopa and gabapentin are good examples of this. In fact, things from minerals (lithium) to plants (morphine) are often prescribed as "drugs".
Click to expand...

Please inform me, I am not aware that introverts are high in acetylcholine. Is there something in the thread above that I missed? Give me the basics, I really don't know much about it.

As far as drugs go, I don't have a problem with prescribed drugs. Most people don't have the amount of knowledge about them that you have though. And most people don't do much research about the drugs they are taking, they just take whatever the doctor gives them. On the other hand, prescribed drugs may be safer because there is more oversight. It doesn't really matter though, I will take anything that is relatively safe if it might help.


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## pjmc

Interesting excerpt I found which relates to this topic:
From: http://www.mhsanctuary.com/therapist/1055.htm

cetylcholine

It seems as if today's modern psychiatric medicine is primarily focused on
the neurotransmitter serotonin. I'm curious if any significant research has
been done to investigate the relationship between acetylcholine and various
symptoms of mental health disorders. Also, has there been any research done
to see if there is a relationship between the tendency for BDP and
extroverted vs. introverted personality types?

In my own personal experience, SSRI-type medicines only seem to make me more
agitated and symptomatic. They seem to increase my energy, without really
relieving any of the other symptoms - leading to a feeling of ADD, even
after an extended period of usage. I've tried Paxil, Prozac, Wellbutrin,
Effexor and Lexapro.

For a while this lead me to suspect that perhaps I was Bipolar, however; I
do not experience mania and my moods fluctuate within hours, not days or
weeks or months.

I became interested in acetylcholine after reading Marti Laney's book, "The
Introvert Advantage." In the book (which should have been named, The
Introvert Disadvantage), she talks about the longer acetylcholine pathway
that is associated with the parasympathetic nervous system, and the shorter,
dopamine pathway that is associated with the sympathetic nervous system -
and how she believed that introverts used the former while extroverts
operated primarily on the latter.

From my non-medical interpretation of the book - it seemed as if the
conclusion she was drawing is that some people actually get a sort of "high"
from outside stimulus, while others find it to be overwhelming. I
definitely fall into the latter group of "very sensitive" people - and I
think that this greatly attributes to my BPD symptoms. My oversensitivity to
everything, especially emotions and interpersonal relationships, usually
just precipitates the bad experiences I live in fear of - like Ouroboros
feeding upon itself.

Another thing that she discussed in the book is that people who operate more
via the Acetylcholine pathway use their long term memory more than their
short term memory - which explained why people who used this pathway had a
hard time remembering what types of things they enjoyed doing, thus
attributing to feelings of boredom and bring "lost." She recommended making
a list of things that you enjoy doing and adding to it whenever you find
something new - and then referencing the list when you have spare time.

I know that this is a lot of information and I'm trying to summarize it as
best as possible but leaving out a lot of details, but I'd appreciate any
commentary you have to offer.

The primary function of acetylcholine is muscular-skeletal, and there
comparatively few acetylcholine receptors in the brain.


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## Caedmon

It was referenced by the original poster, who it would seem quoted someone (possibly himself?) in reference to a book:

"On a lark, I picked up a book for her this Christmas: The Introvert Advantage, How to Thrive in an Extrovert World. I expected that it would be fun to read through, pick up some tips for dealing with ardent extroverts like her father. Turns out that it's packed with all sorts of great information.

What first grabbed my attention is the discovery that introversion is physiological (as opposed to shyness, which is behavioral). Extroverts and introverts actually use different neurotransmitters and different neural pathways to the brain. Introverts' dominant neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, is associated with the energy-conserving parasympathetic nervous systems and with moving memories into long-term storage."

from - http://afongen.com/blog/archives/000355.php

But, hence my questions.

I did find this website saying: 
"Introverts, on the other hand, have such a surfeit of brain activity that it's sometimes difficult for them to attend to what's happening around them. While this might result in some social awkwardness, it has a host of benefits. Introverts have more acetylcholine, a chemical that enhances "long-term memory, the ability to stay calm and alert, and perceptual learning." They also have increased activity in the frontal lobe, which has been linked to high-level problem solving skills, long-term planning, and a facility with language. Perhaps, it's no accident that an estimated 60 percent of the world's best minds have been introverts."

I did a pubmed search, typing in acetylcholine and words like shy, shyness, introversion, extraversion, personality, and words like that, but found nothing. When I looked for acetylcholine and *mood*, I found numerous references to the ability of _anti-_cholinergic substances to improve mood and reduce depression. I found a reference to benzodiazepines' ability to reduce cholinergic transmission.

This IMHO excellent webpage ( http://www.acnp.org/G4/GN401000095/CH.html ) notes that depression and stress are linked to higher acetylcholine levels, where as mania may be linked to lower levels:

"Consistent with stress activating central acetylcholine activity, cholinomimetic drugs cause many of the same effects as do naturally occurring stressors. These include increases in negative affect, the induction of affective symptoms, increases in stress-sensitive neuroendocrines including ACTH, cortisol, b-endorphin, growth hormone, prolactin, epinephrine, and possibly norepinephrine, increases in blood pressure and pulse rate, and increases in analgesia. These cholinomimetic effects, combined with the effect of stress on central acetylcholine activity, suggest a stress-acetylcholine linkage."

... so, I still keep wondering:



Caedmon said:


> If introverts are high in acetylcholine (or is it, high in those receptors, or overactive in ACh circuits, I never know), then is the introversion *caused* by the acetylcholine or does *introversion* cause increased release and expression of presynaptic/ postsynaptic receptors or circuit activation?
> 
> If intoverts are high in ACh, why would supplementation cause less introversion? If you're already high in a certain neurochemical, wouldn't supplementing it be unneccessary? In fact, it sounds like it could be counterproductive.
> 
> Could ACh be counterproductive wrt anxiety (I know we were talking about introversion, but still...) since it is excitatory and agonizes NMDA-type glutamate receptors?
> 
> Since extroversion is tied to dopamine, wouldn't dopamine "boosting" (of some sort) increase extraversion instead?


Now I'm also wondering if there are possible side effects of increased depression and anxiety (but less mania?) from ACh-ergic treatments.


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## FearNoMore

Caedmon,

Thanks for your posts, you have really made me think more about this. There appears to be some contradictory information about acetylcholine out there, not surprisingly. Here are some of my thoughts:

I took the original post to mean that introverts are low in ACH. I also thought the Invtrovert Advantage claims ACH is low. I put the book on hold at the library, so I will find out more later.

Here is an excerpt from 
http://spwb.com/articles/brainarticle.html
which may be interesting to you:

The acetylcholine-dominant personality

Acetylcholine is produced in the parietal lobes, which are responsible for thinking functions such as language processing, intelligence, and attention. People with an excess of acetylcholine (about 17% of the world's population) are adept at working with their senses and view the world in sensory terms. They are quick thinkers, highly creative, and open to new ideas. Flexibility, creativity, and impulsivity open them up to trying almost anything, as long as it offers the promise of excitement and something new; they are not afraid of failure. They love to travel and have a quest for lifelong learning. These people also tend to be extremely sociable, even charismatic. They love making new friends and put a lot of energy into all of their relationships, whether at work, at home, or in the community. They are eternally optimistic, romantic with their significant other, and attentive to the needs of their children. They are quite popular with a broad range of people. People with extremely high levels of acetylcholine, however, risk giving too much of themselves to others, even to the point of being masochistic. They may feel that the world is taking advantage of them, or they may become paranoid. Too much acetylcholine can drive a person into isolation.

The acetylcholine-deficient personality

Low levels of acetylcholine result when either the brain burns too much or produces too little. Shifts in personality occur at a much milder deficiency than the dementia- producing deficiencies mentioned earlier. These personality traits can, in fact, manifest when the acetylcholine level is only slightly lower than the levels of the other three neurotransmitters. And remember, we're looking at the relative balance of neurotransmitters. A deficiency in one neurotransmitter is usually offset by an excess of another, which typically produces the personality traits associated with a dominance of that other neurotransmitter.

The eccentric. The absence of thought connections to other people and the world makes this person's behavior seem odd. The eccentric usually steers away from human interaction and keeps himself isolated. Outwardly, he appears bland and inexpressive. When even mildly stressed, however, he can become a danger to himself and others.

The perfectionist. This person is usually hard working, detail oriented, devoted, and exacting. Self-discipline is a hallmark of this personality type, which can be either a plus or a minus, depending on the severity of the imbalance and which other neurotransmitter is dominant. This person can be an excellent worker, or he can be rigid and obsessive to the point that nothing is actually accomplished. The perfectionist's life is usually lacking in enjoyment, relaxation, and warmth, which can make that person unapproachable.

That article is very interesting IMHO.


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## FearNoMore

I put a hold on the book "The Edge Effect", by the author of the article referenced above.


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## Caedmon

Let us know what the books have to say! :int


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## R4ph4el

very interesting guys, love to hear more about it


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## FearNoMore

I don't have a lot of time, but I wanted to update a little. I read most of "The Edge Effect", it is a very interesting read. There are a couple of tests in the book. The first test tells me that I am an acetylcholine dominant person. I think this means acetylcholine has the largest affect on me of the four neurotransmitters. The second test tells me I am deficient in GABA.

Based on this, I decided to add L-glutamine to try to increase my GABA. I took 1g last night and 1g this morning and 1g near noon. The glutamine had a very similar affect on me as Klonopin. This morning I took glutamine and it made me tired. Later I took choline and it took away the tiredness. So far I feel better.


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## FearNoMore

Update:

Yesterday I took 5g of L-glutamine, it helped greatly. It does make me drowsy though, I'm hoping that will lessen. I also took my usual 3.25g of choline. I am going to switch to DMAE when the choline is gone. From my reading, DMAE passes the blood brain barrier easier than choline. Once in the brain, DMAE converts to choline that aids in the production of acetylcholine. I really feel like (and hope) I am getting somewhere with this. I woke up this morning feeling good for the first time in quite a while, I usually struggle in the morning for awhile.


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## jasonz

any update from choline users? i had order choline and is still waiting for it to arrive from overseas...


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## FearNoMore

Marc said:


> I'm taking 100mg of choline which is probably not enough cause I see no difference. :stu


Seems like you would have to take at least 500mg to feel any effect.


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## FearNoMore

jasonz said:


> any update from choline users? i had order choline and is still waiting for it to arrive from overseas...


I'm still using choline, but will be switching to DMAE in a couple of days, when the choline runs out. These two supplements have basically the same effect though. I haven't felt very well for the last few days. I'm not sure why though, I will keep using the choline for awhile. I also am continuing to take L-Glutamine. I still have no intentions of going back to conventional medications. I believe some combination of supplements will help, whether that includes choline (or DMAE) or not.


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## idonthave_SA

why don't you like conventional medicine?


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## FearNoMore

idonthave_SA said:


> why don't you like conventional medicine?


I am not against drugs, I have been on many of them. I am just hoping to get a similar (or even better) result from supplements. I want to have fewer side effects and lower costs, including doctor costs. It also feels empowering to try to find a solution without the help of a doctor.

For example, I have asthma and started using Quercetin for this. The results were much better than with my inhaler. I have since been able to taper off the Quercetin and stop altogether. I hope to find something that will help just as well for my anxiety.

I would use drugs though, if I found something that really worked for me.


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## likewater

any further news on this? I'm thinking about giving it a shot


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## FearNoMore

likewater said:


> any further news on this? I'm thinking about giving it a shot


I have switched to DMAE (500mg/day) since Wednesday. It does the same thing as choline, but crosses the blood brain barrier easier. I haven't been feeling very well this week in general, but I haven't had to take any Klonopin. So the supplements are helping me, and I am hopeful that DMAE will help even more over the next few weeks. Note: I am also taking glutamine (12g/day) to try to boost my GABA.


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## jasonz

any new updates on this? 

can those who tried the Acetyl L-Carnitine, can u compare with the normal choline?

i read that the choline(PC) contains inside the lecithincan better be absorb into the blood than the pure choline. true?

is it a must that the pure choline inside sure contain tartaric acid?


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## jasonz

can ppl here who eat it recommend online site for us to purchase?


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## DavidPT40

Sorry for the late reply. So far, out of acetyl-carnitine, lecithin capsules, and lecithin granules, I've noticed the best effects from the lecithin capsules.


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## jasonz

DavidPT40 said:


> Sorry for the late reply. So far, out of acetyl-carnitine, lecithin capsules, and lecithin granules, I've noticed the best effects from the lecithin capsules.


do you mind describing all of them?
anyway, have u tried pure choline?


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## clocktower42

Is it really safe for people to just "try different pills" ... And seriously if it were really that easy to take this one "magic" pill and fix things this message board wouldn't exist. Sounds more like a little hope in a false pill took you a long ways... Gotta love the placebo effect. But that's just my opinion, and I'm glad you are doing better.


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## Bucs623

From what I've read I would say the main thing Choline does is increase mental focus. Which in-turn gives you a positive mood and more alert during the day. 

A direct anxiety solution? Not fully, but probably enough to make you concentrate on more important things in life.


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## Bucs623

Sickseed mentioned _Acetyl L-Carnitine..._which is another mental energy supplement. More focused and alert with some mood support.


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## jasonz

have you tried it yourself bucs623?


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## Bucs623

It's being shipped now. I'll let you know my results.


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## Bucs623

Tried Choline & Inositol late this afternoon for the first time. Noticed my attention/response was slightly better. Will need more time to see more/less effects plus determine the dosage if any.


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## jasonz

Bucs623.... why didn't you buy the pure choline supplement?

To sickseed and FearNoMore: can you write the result so far now? Can others who took choline/PC contribute to this thread please? Thanks


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## jasonz

DavidPT40 said:


> Sorry for the late reply. So far, out of acetyl-carnitine, lecithin capsules, and lecithin granules, I've noticed the best effects from the lecithin capsules.


why didn't you try the pure choline?


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## Bucs623

jasonz said:


> Bucs623.... why didn't you buy the pure choline supplement?
> 
> To sickseed and FearNoMore: can you write the result so far now? Can others who took choline/PC contribute to this thread please? Thanks


Hey Jasonz, 225 mg of it is pure choline.


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## FearNoMore

You know, I could be crazy, but I don't think my lower anxiety in the beginning was due to the placebo affect. I really felt like something was happening. I still feel like the DMAE has helped with my memory and brain activity. My energy has been better as well. This has helped my anxiety to lessen because I don't zone out as much around others. So I am interacting somewhat with actual people.

In the meantime, I need more for the anxiety aspect. I have ordered Phenibut and will give that a try. Also, I started taking Theanine last night. I got a lot accomplished last night and felt really good when I went to sleep. So maybe the Theanine will be helpful for me. I still tying things people.

As far as the hype with choline. I agree, there is no reason to hype any kind of pill. I don't think choline is dangerous though. It is a nutrient after all.

Well, these are my thoughts anyhow.


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## Bucs623

Choline aids ACh, a neurotransmitter your body needs for thought process and mental energy. Nothing wrong with taking it. Some ppl might not feel the effects of Choline because theres more neurotransmitters in your brain that need attention to like: dopamine and serotonin. Who's to say your defiency isnt in one of those instead of ACh.


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## jasonz

FearNoMore said:


> You know, I could be crazy, but I don't think my lower anxiety in the beginning was due to the placebo affect. I really felt like something was happening. I still feel like the DMAE has helped with my memory and brain activity. My energy has been better as well. This has helped my anxiety to lessen because I don't zone out as much around others. So I am interacting somewhat with actual people.
> 
> In the meantime, I need more for the anxiety aspect. I have ordered Phenibut and will give that a try. Also, I started taking Theanine last night. I got a lot accomplished last night and felt really good when I went to sleep. So maybe the Theanine will be helpful for me. I still tying things people.
> 
> As far as the hype with choline. I agree, there is no reason to hype any kind of pill. I don't think choline is dangerous though. It is a nutrient after all.
> 
> Well, these are my thoughts anyhow.


how is choline to you compared to DMAE? care to elaborate? i am thinking of trying out pure choline or dmae now.


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## FearNoMore

jasonz,

I'm not sure I can really tell the difference between the choline and DMAE. The DMAE gave me a low grade headache in the beginning, but that went away after a couple of days. I wish I could be more helpful to you. I just switched because DMAE supposedly passes the blood brain barrier easier. Another complicating factor is that I was taking a very large amount of choline, over 3 grams per day. I'm keeping DMAE relatively low to avoid any side effects. I'm taking about 500mg of DMAE per day.


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## jasonz

do you have any side effects from taking over 3 grams of choline per day?


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## FearNoMore

no, from what I read you shouldn't go over 3.5g though.


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## jasonz

thanks for the fast response. think i will be changing from lethin PC to choline since the current lethin is running out soon. or do you recommend DMAE?


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## FearNoMore

Actually, the choline made me feel a little warmer and sweat a little more. I never got the fishy body odor that it can cause though. I think that DMAE is supperior to choline.


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## Bucs623

Same here with the sweat from Choline. When I workout at the gym, I will sweat progressively more. 

When I get the time, I'm going to either try DMAE or Tyrosine for higher dopamine levels to fuel a good mood, excitability, etc.


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## jasonz

ordered the Acetyl L-Carnitine and pure choline... hope it will yeild a better result than the PC

DMAE helps with dopamine too?


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## jasonz

fearnomore, do you feel the same effect with DMAE and pure choline without taking the blood barrier theory into the fact? except that u had a sligth headache in the beginging of taking dmae and sweat not so much?


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## Bucs623

jasonz said:


> ordered the Acetyl L-Carnitine and pure choline... hope it will yeild a better result than the PC
> 
> DMAE helps with dopamine too?


Jason those are two good ACh neurotransmitter nutrients.

Yes, Tyrosine effect Dopamine. I've heard good things from both.

Edit: Sorry, DMAE effects ACh


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## jasonz

pls do give feedback on result guys...


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## Bucs623

Ordered Tyrosine today, 500 mg.
Probably going to start with a 250mg dosage to see the effects.

So in total I will be taking: Choline/Inositol, Acetyl L-Carnitine, and Tyrosine. 

Those in a lower dosage all together will hopefully give me a more balanced focus/mood. 

And I will give feedback once I've taken them together.


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## jasonz

have you tried taking Acetyl L-Carnitine? i am curious about this result because i had ordered it yesterday


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## Bucs623

Nope, thats being shipped, should be here Wednesday along with Tyrosine

I hear its potent and really good for memory, mental focus/concentration..so youre in luck there.


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## jasonz

i see. a result by DavidPT40 doesn't seem to make me optimistic about acetyl-carnitine


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## Bucs623

What did David say about it?


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## jasonz

DavidPT40 said:


> Sorry for the late reply. So far, out of acetyl-carnitine, lecithin capsules, and lecithin granules, I've noticed the best effects from the lecithin capsules.


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## jasonz

any response by Sickseed?


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## Bucs623

I still think Acetyl-carniitine will be great for you. Plus the pure choline you ordered, you'll be mentally focused all day. Just remember to find the right dosage for you.


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## jasonz

how's the choline & initsol doing for u so far?


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## shoe

*Re: Choline capsules or power??so far I am cured!!!*

*on edit, I realized too late that there was 7 pages of messages here, and I found my answer in there. oops, gotta check the page count next time


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## Bucs623

jasonz said:


> how's the choline & initsol doing for u so far?


Good, my memory and focus is better. Acetyl carnitine just arrived so I just took one.


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## jasonz

keep me update on the Acetyl carnitine alright?


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## Bucs623

Will do.


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## jasonz

any update?


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## Bucs623

Working pretty well. Took a Choline/Insoitol 500 mg and Acetyl carnitine 500mg this morning. Felt refreshed and ready to take on the day. Mind was focused, didnt get any brain fog.


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## jasonz

do u suggest taking choline and acetyl carnitine together?


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## Bucs623

Yes, in a lower dosage. In fact you could combine a few more just to get a better reaction, I would stop with the ACh triggers though after 2. I'd get a dopamine reactant as well such as: L-Tyrosine. 

I'd open the capsules and take half of each or less, therefore you wont feel over-stimulated during the day. Everyone's different, trial and error it.


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## jasonz

do u noe the side effect of taking too much ach?

anyway, can fearnomore/sickseeds and others users here input their review? thanks


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## jasonz

anyone?


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## FearNoMore

I am still taking 500mg/ day of DMAE. It is helping with my concentration and fatigue, so I still see the benefit of it. I still am struggling with my anxiety though. I have decided to stop posting on this thread. It seems that sickseed has abandoned his thread. This happended about the time that caedmon challenged whether sickseed wrote the original post himself or not. Right now, I just don't want to be involved in extending this thread any further. If I have more to add, I will start a new thread or post on different thread than this one. That's what I am thinking right now anyhow.


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## jasonz

i see.. alright
Bucs623 thing still doing well for you?


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## Sickseed

Sorry for not replying in the post but I am have been experimenting with DXM which is causing altered effects to the choline so I cannot give you an accurate update. But ever since I have started using choline and the other precursors the most powerful and lasting effect is the brain fog that is lifted and remains clear until I run out of choline. So for me I cannot imagine not using it. The brain fog seems to be connected to my anxiety and sick feeling in my stomach that I use to feel at work and at parties etc. :afr


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## LoveThySelf

jasonz said:


> do u noe the side effect of taking too much ach?
> 
> anyway, can fearnomore/sickseeds and others users here input their review? thanks


Not trying to be a fear-monger here:

Having too much Ach in your body would cause overstimulation of your Ach receptors on your nerves leading to uncontrolled muscle contraction and ultimately to receptor desensitization and paralysis.

This is how the nerve gas, Sarin, works.

This is assuming that any Ach or precursors that you injest wouldnt be broken down in the stomach first.

If you are taking mega doses of these products and you start getting twitchy or having other strange side effects, seek medical attention.


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## jasonz

LoveThySelf said:


> jasonz said:
> 
> 
> 
> do u noe the side effect of taking too much ach?
> 
> anyway, can fearnomore/sickseeds and others users here input their review? thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to be a fear-monger here:
> 
> Having too much Ach in your body would cause overstimulation of your Ach receptors on your nerves leading to uncontrolled muscle contraction and ultimately to receptor desensitization and paralysis.
> 
> This is how the nerve gas, Sarin, works.
> 
> This is assuming that any Ach or precursors that you injest wouldnt be broken down in the stomach first.
> 
> If you are taking mega doses of these products and you start getting twitchy or having other strange side effects, seek medical attention.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I took PC and for most of the days it works great for me especially in the mental focus and speech department. There's still days where it didn't take effect on me. Muscle contraction you were saying that my hand may tremble due to too much consumption of choline? And also, you said "This is assuming that any Ach or precursors that you injest wouldnt be broken down in the stomach first." , does that mean if the choline or any precursors that failed to break down in our stomach will then cause for the muscle contraction and all this?

Anyway, I am running out of the lethin PC soon. Ordered pure cholinr (choline bitrate) and hoping it is better. I hope the pure choline won't cause my body to have any fish odour.

To sickseed: what is DMX? DMAE you were saying? Do you find taking pure choline makes you easily sweaty? You tried the lethin PC? I tried it. They are good but they make me sweat really easily but no fishy odour.

And too all, can you guys update us on your outcome on consumption of the choline? thanks


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## LoveThySelf

Ach is considered the "generic" neurotransmitter found all over your body. Sarin is able to kill you just by using the Ach you normally have in your system. I dont know how safe it would be to add a bunch more Ach into you system.

What I meant is that I dont know if these suppliments are able to survive going through the stomach. I also dont know if your body would automatically create more Ach from all components it has available, or just on an as needed basis. If its an as needed basis then there is no worry.


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## jasonz

any update?


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## AdamCanada

Alright, i couldn't find any supplement named choline, just phosphatidyl-choline. Is that what people are talking about here?

ive read the thread and its really confusing.

It was actually hard to find to, i had to go to a lil privatly owned store and buy it, the lady there was awsome, I also tried to buy acetyl carnitine and l-tryptophan, but she said they weren't legal in Canada. She then said she could get it for me though. lol


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## jasonz

any update from you, Bucs623?


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## Softy785

I've been taking 1.5 grams of acetyl-l carnitine for about 3 weeks now and so far I think I am having very good results. Not only am I more mentally alert, but I actually do feel more sociable! Last week when I was having my regular counseling session with my counselor Tammy, I definitely noticed a huge difference in the way I was interacting with her. Normally I have a hard time getting my point across and get flustered quite a bit, but this time, assisted by the carnitine, I was conversing so much more easily and the words were coming to me very well. I might consider adding regular choline and see if this makes a difference, but so far, so good.


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## Futures

Interesting thread, but after reading 8 pages, my brain hurts as I try to figure out what's what here among all these different supplement mentioned.

Pure Choline, Phosphatidyl Choline, Lecithn capsules, DMAE, Acetyl carnitine, Insoitol, l-tryptophan ':stu'

Can somebody please lay everything out in a easy to understand manner for those of us who have never heard of any of these things before?

What exactly do you take?

How much of it do you take (dosage)?

How many times a day do you take it?


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## AdamCanada

Futures said:


> Interesting thread, but after reading 8 pages, my brain hurts as I try to figure out what's what here among all these different supplement mentioned.
> 
> Pure Choline, Phosphatidyl Choline, Lecithn capsules, DMAE, Acetyl carnitine, Insoitol, l-tryptophan ':stu'
> 
> Can somebody please lay everything out in a easy to understand manner for those of us who have never heard of any of these things before?
> 
> What exactly do you take?
> 
> How much of it do you take (dosage)?
> 
> How many times a day do you take it?


sorry the tryptophan is from another thread, i was just talking about the lady at my local drug store.

Ive also noticed that Phosphatidyl Choline is different from what everyone is talking about because the bottle of Phosphatidyl Choline that i bought says on the back that 64mg is pure choline. Which isn['t very much.

Acetyl-carnitine, Pure Choline, and DMAE are what people are taking to get the results talked about here. I believe anyways, this thread is very confusing.


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## Guest

I didn't know what to get. I just got Soy Lecithin Granules from GNC.

Phosphatidyl Choline 1725 mg
Total Choline 250 mg

:stu


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## Oberyn

jasonz said:


> LoveThySelf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jasonz said:
> 
> 
> 
> To sickseed: what is DMX?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

DXM or Dextromethorphan is the active ingredient in cough-medicines such as Robitussin. In high doses it has disassociative affects comparable to Ketamine or PCP.

On the neurological level, it basically prevents parts of your brain from communicating with each other. It also affects your dopamine and serotonin systems so I would not recommend experimenting if you are on any medications or supplements that affect these systems (especially if you are on antidepressants).

It has no therapeutic value in terms of treatment for Social Anxiety and the long-term affects of recreational usage are still unknown.

But getting back on topic:

Is the general consensus that choline removes that "brain fog" and gives more lucid speech - - - rather than affecting the Social Anxiety directly?


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## Panic Prone

phosphatidylserine crosses the blood/brain barrier to affect acetylcholine better then choline, dmae lecithin ext.. anyone tried that?


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## Bucs623

Hey jason, still using the choline and aceytl lcarnitene, I usually take half a capsule of either daily. Still working good.


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## jasonz

Panic Prone said:


> phosphatidylserine crosses the blood/brain barrier to affect acetylcholine better then choline, dmae lecithin ext.. anyone tried that?


so far i see no one mentioned bout the effectiveness on phosphatidylserine on any health sites at all except from thoe clinic studies


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## Vic

I'm keeping my eye on this thread...looks promising.


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## tonsofun

Here's some more information on acetyl-L-carnitine. Doesn't seem to mention anything about anxiety. It does mention hyperthyroidism, and the symptoms kind of mirror SA. It makes me wonder if anyone here has ever been tested for it.



> I've been taking 1.5 grams of acetyl-l carnitine for about 3 weeks now and so far I think I am having very good results. Not only am I more mentally alert, but I actually do feel more sociable!


Softy, Do you take this all at once or throughout the day? I just picked up some of this and it comes in 500mg capsules. Also, I got 30 capsules for 13 bucks. that could get pretty expensive assuming it actually works for me. Have you found a cheaper deal on this stuff?

I'll keep you guys updated as I take this throughout the week.


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## Guest

This isn't helping me at all, I'm sorry.


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## Softy785

> Softy, Do you take this all at once or throughout the day? I just picked up some of this and it comes in 500mg capsules. Also, I got 30 capsules for 13 bucks. that could get pretty expensive assuming it actually works for me. Have you found a cheaper deal on this stuff?


I take it all at once. I probably should be taking it throughout the day, but its just more convenient for me to take it all at one time. I bought mine at the website http://www.1fast400.com. I got 100 capsules of 500 mg for $16.99. That was the best deal I could find. It can get expensive, but I think it's worth it.


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## hussbus4

Right now i am taking:

super stress pills with vitamin C. contains 100/100 choline/inositol 
500/500mg of choline/inositol
900 mg of st. john's wort

so i am at 600 mg choline

I guess i see some difference, i am also battling some other issues such as depression. I may up my choline just to see how if it works more effectively.


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## jasonz

does it help you with stress related stuff?


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## Mary674

Alright, I too am a little confused with this thread. So to make it simple:
Should I try choline? What amount to start with and when to take it?
Thanks.


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## Mary674

I started taking choline, 500mg a day and so far no effect but it has only been a week.


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## Prettyinside

*Re:*



Mary674 said:


> I started taking choline, 500mg a day and so far no effect but it has only been a week.


Any updates??


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## Goldfishes

Be careful. Choline can cause depression, but it does lower anxiety, and acetylcholine is part of the cholinergic system which induces introspective thought.


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