# ACT and CBT



## roverred (Dec 23, 2007)

I was wondering what everyone's opinion is on these two methods? Did you find one more effective than the other or do you combine them together? 

ACT I just started recently. It was very conflicting too me at first because it seem to contradict CBT. CBT is all about changing your mind, but ACT says to accept everything. However, now I'm starting to see how they work together. When I used CBT only I got stuck CBT because I became to disown certain emotions and thoughts because I got so obsessed with replacing ANTS. I ended up with tunnel vision, focusing on finding negative thoughts and eliminating them. Then I learned about ACT which really helped me view things differently. Now I use ACT to accept the emotions, see it as an opinion/advice of the mind. And because I'm not just focusing on the negative aspects, I also see the more rational and positive thoughts I have to. Then based all these thoughts I choose what to think and how to act. The rationalizing I consider the CBT part. I like this way because well emotions are necessary. We need to tone them down and manage them more effectively.

But I'm not sure this is the best way for to go. I use think what I was doing in the past was the best way, so I've become a little more wary but also open-minded. Any thoughts on what I'm doing as well?


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## roverred (Dec 23, 2007)

sabbath9 said:


> ANTs = automatic negative thinking, but in ACT we don't judge our thoughts, feelings, memories, etc., we just observe them and/or defuse from them. The only criteria we test is whether they are helpful or not.
> 
> CBT has some good points, but it didn't help me much. ACT on the other hand, has helped me greatly. ACT is more about what we can control, which is our physical body. If I tell you now "Raise your arm", you can do that. However if I say "Stop remembering the past", hmm not so easy.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Good to know you think I'm on the right track. I haven't checked out that book but definitely interested in checking out. I'm coming to realize shame is one of my main problems and have been looking for more ways to tackle this. I just finished reading about toxic shame in Healing the Shame that Binds You from John Bradshaw. Good concepts but didn't find the practical advice for improving very helpful. Is the book CBT, ACT-based, or something else?

Oh and why did you find CBT helped you but ACT didn't?


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

Go with CBT. It is by far the gold standard for treatment. 

The parts that "work" from ACT are the parts involving cognitive reappraisal of challenging situations. But, that's what cognitive therapy is all about, anyway!


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## Kanzi (May 10, 2015)

You can use both! First, you can use CBT to demonstrate to yourself the irrationality of the underlying ANTs. This alone might abate your anxious feelings, but most likely, you will still feel anxious when in your feared situation. So then it makes sense to distance yourself from your ANTs. This is the big benefit of using ACT after first applying CBT: you keep yourself from endlessly disputing ANTs with CBT and instead use ACT to move on with your life.

So you may ask: Why use CBT in the first place then, if I can just use ACT to distance myself from my unhelpful thoughts? Well, because CBT provides extra rational justification for distancing yourself from your unhelpful thoughts. Essentially, with CBT you can first label your ANTs as "unsupported" by reason or data, and then with ACT you label those same ANTs as "unhelpful". In the end, you see your ANTs as both "unsupported" and "unhelpful", which brings together the best of both worlds! Having these two labels for your ANTs makes it easier to distance yourself from them with ACT than if you only used one of the two labels. For this reason, I would argue that doing CBT can make it easier to apply ACT, and applying ACT and keep you from endlessly doing CBT exercises!

If you either do not have time to first apply CBT, or CBT has been ineffective for you in the past, then you can try what *sabbath9* has recommended and just use ACT without challenging any thoughts (i.e., without using CBT). If you are taking this route, you may need to try extra hard to distance yourself from your negative thoughts and emotions, since your only justification for distancing yourself will be because these thoughts and emotions are "unhelpful." But it should be possible.

By the way *Caedmon*, CBT may be "the gold standard" right now, but the CBT/ACT hybrid may be the gold standard in the future, with ACT by itself possibly being sufficient for many people. Some observers are refering to ACT and mindfulness-based therapy as the current and "third wave" of psychology. You can check out NPR's "Invisibilia Podcast: The Secret History of Thoughts" for an entertaining introduction to this.


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## Kanzi (May 10, 2015)

Sorry, I am clarifying my former post because I am a new user and I do not have the ability to edit a post.

At the end of the second paragraph, I meant to say that "applying ACT *can* keep you from endlessly doing CBT exercises".


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## Esteban (Dec 8, 2014)

ACT just sounds like a re-branding of mindfulness meditation in fancy-sounding psychological terms. It seems better to just do CBT combined with mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness meditation will build up your skill at being mindful and aware in the present moment, which will, with enough practice, bleed over into other activities.


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## roverred (Dec 23, 2007)

Kanzi said:


> You can use both! First, you can use CBT to demonstrate to yourself the irrationality of the underlying ANTs. This alone might abate your anxious feelings, but most likely, you will still feel anxious when in your feared situation. So then it makes sense to distance yourself from your ANTs. This is the big benefit of using ACT after first applying CBT: you keep yourself from endlessly disputing ANTs with CBT and instead use ACT to move on with your life.
> 
> So you may ask: Why use CBT in the first place then, if I can just use ACT to distance myself from my unhelpful thoughts? Well, because CBT provides extra rational justification for distancing yourself from your unhelpful thoughts. Essentially, with CBT you can first label your ANTs as "unsupported" by reason or data, and then with ACT you label those same ANTs as "unhelpful". In the end, you see your ANTs as both "unsupported" and "unhelpful", which brings together the best of both worlds! Having these two labels for your ANTs makes it easier to distance yourself from them with ACT than if you only used one of the two labels. For this reason, I would argue that doing CBT can make it easier to apply ACT, and applying ACT and keep you from endlessly doing CBT exercises!
> 
> If you either do not have time to first apply CBT, or CBT has been ineffective for you in the past, then you can try what *sabbath9* has recommended and just use ACT without challenging any thoughts (i.e., without using CBT). If you are taking this route, you may need to try extra hard to distance yourself from your negative thoughts and emotions, since your only justification for distancing yourself will be because these thoughts and emotions are "unhelpful." But it should be possible.


Oh no CBT actually has been very helpful. I should have mentioned that in my post. It changed my entire perspective on life and reduce my anxiety enough so I could be functional again. But after awhile I reached a point where progress with CBT was getting tough.

But great post. As I've been doing ACT and CBT more together, that's exactly what I'm starting to see now. ACT I found is much better at getting rid of the anxiety during the moment, breaking my negative mental tunnel vision, and seeing thoughts as automatic reactions.


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## roverred (Dec 23, 2007)

Esteban said:


> ACT just sounds like a re-branding of mindfulness meditation in fancy-sounding psychological terms. It seems better to just do CBT combined with mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness meditation will build up your skill at being mindful and aware in the present moment, which will, with enough practice, bleed over into other activities.


Ya I can see ACT as applied mindfulness towards anxiety. Curious what type of mindful exercises have you found most helpful for you?


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## Esteban (Dec 8, 2014)

roverred said:


> Ya I can see ACT as applied mindfulness towards anxiety. Curious what type of mindful exercises have you found most helpful for you?


Just the usual mindfulness meditation where I'd sit still, focus on my breath, and remain mindful during my focus.


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