# Why do men have to put forth most of the effort most of the time



## the collector (Aug 15, 2010)

I don't get it. Men have to make the first move. Men have to initiate dating. Men have to ask the questions and peer to try and get to know the woman.Women just have to sit pretty.By no means is it like this in all cases.But, it seems to me that most women just want to sit pretty and let the guy put most of the effort in.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk


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## Kandice (Jan 26, 2017)

If you don't want to put in the effort then don't. It's not anyone's problem but yours, so just don't and be done with it.


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## mt moyt (Jul 29, 2015)

i dunno why


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## Virgo (Jun 27, 2016)

Um, because you're the ones who want p*ssy? Hey, don't bother then, lolllllll


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## Kevin001 (Jan 2, 2015)

Its called being a man.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

Yeah, it's so easy for us since _every single woman on Earth_ is pretty and wants nothing but a one-night stand with a horny guy who'll move on to the next pretty woman immediately afterward!

Oh, wait.


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## doe deer (Oct 9, 2016)

absolutely true, women can just exist and that's enough.
it's so horrible that you have to ask questions but a woman totally doesn't  she doesn't even have to answer them, she can just be there.


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## novalax (Jun 7, 2013)

women have to give birth...I think its a fair trade lol


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## HobbitInHell (Feb 21, 2017)

A lot of women are up themselves and for some unknown reason expect and demand men to make all the effort and do everything. These are the ones to avoid.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

It doesn't matter why. _At all_. It is the way it is. Being annoyed at this is like being annoyed that cakes are high calorie. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, it isn't going to change.

There is an illusion that if people just understood "how unfair it all is" then things would change. It wont.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Guys are usually thirstier. Women are more willing to wait. It creates a power imbalance at the beginning of dating/relationships yeah. If a woman finds a guy hot enough and he's not approaching I'm pretty sure she'd go for it. And then there are the minority of aggressive women who always prefer to approach the guy.

I don't agree that men should have to approach to be a man or even 'be the man' at all. It's a common perspective, and most men instinctively like chasing but that doesn't mean you're less of one for choosing not to, just know women do not approach at the same rate and even if they did you wouldn't find many of them attractive enough to do more than have sex with them (and they know that, which is part of why things are the way they are.)


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

splendidbob said:


> It doesn't matter why. _At all_. It is the way it is. Being annoyed at this is like being annoyed that cakes are high calorie. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, it isn't going to change.


I feel the same way.

Also, a lot of the people who complain about this dating dynamic are willfully ignorant to how the same dynamic benefits them in other areas of their life.

I've never once walked down the street and hard a car full of girls honk at me and holler nonsense, people generally take me seriously and don't brush off what I have to say because I'm 'just a man', etc.

As frustrating as certain social dynamics are when you don't have the highest confidence or sharpest social skills, I'd still rather be a man than a woman in today's society.


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

It sucks when you message a girl and she basically gives 1 worded responses and she puts in no effort whatsoever to keep the conversation going.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

We live in a patriarchal society. You can't simply declare yourself to be "not like other men" and live outside of the patriarchy and expect to be able to find dates outside of society.

Gender roles suck for guys like us who don't naturally fit them or weren't socialized as kids to act "like boys". You have to learn them manually. And that includes the ugly stuff, like hiding your vulnerable feelings, learning to take up more physical space, feeling entitled to express your opinion and ideas whether or not people want to hear them, and feeling entitled to women, thinking they walk around and dress for male enjoyment. It's toxic masculinity, but I'm taking baby steps. Like this week I went up to two female strangers and told them they were sexy.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

vicente said:


> . It's toxic masculinity, but I'm taking baby steps. Like this week I went up to two female strangers and told them they were sexy.


Be careful with that - maybe change the word sexy.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

SFC01 said:


> Be careful with that - maybe change the word sexy.


The goal was to say something to a woman in a way that she knows you're a man. Rather than something like, "you look pretty in that green dress, what a great sense of style you have!" which could be said by one of their female friends.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

vicente said:


> And that includes the ugly stuff, like *hiding your vulnerable feelings, learning to take up more physical space*, feeling entitled to express your opinion and ideas whether or not people want to hear them, and *feeling entitled to women, thinking they walk around and dress for male enjoyment. It's toxic masculinity*, but I'm taking baby steps. Like this week I went up to two female strangers and told them they were sexy.


I'm kind of saddened that you seem to be serious about this and think it's a good thing.  Where is the more positive, non-toxic masculinity? Surely there's a middle ground.

I guess my opinion doesn't matter though since I'm one of those women guys would never approach.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

vicente said:


> We live in a patriarchal society. You can't simply declare yourself to be "not like other men" and live outside of the patriarchy and expect to be able to find dates outside of society.
> 
> Gender roles suck for guys like us who don't naturally fit them or weren't socialized as kids to act "like boys". You have to learn them manually. And that includes the ugly stuff, like hiding your vulnerable feelings, learning to take up more physical space, feeling entitled to express your opinion and ideas whether or not people want to hear them, and feeling entitled to women, thinking they walk around and dress for male enjoyment. It's toxic masculinity, but I'm taking baby steps. Like this week I went up to two female strangers and told them they were sexy.


You can, but of course the psychology of the majority gets in the way of that being a realistic option. You'd need to find a woman who likes passive guys, which is not impossible just unlikely.

By the way that's not what guys do if they want to be attractive to women lol, you are behaving like a feminist stereotype of men.


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## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

Because dick is the cheapest resource around.


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## rm123 (Mar 21, 2016)

Women are generally told that if a guy isn't making the first move, then he just isn't interested. Like if he wants to be with you, nothing will stop him asking you out, messaging you, talking to you etc. That's why it's not uncommon to have a woman upset that a guy isn't asking her out, rather than simply doing it herself. Society tells her that guy isn't interested.

It does have a predator/prey feel to it, and is a bunch of old fashioned toxic masculinity bull****, but it's a belief ingrained in both men and women.


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

Girls do express an interest in guys but it tends to me more subtle and indirect. It might just be that we still have gender roles and women are seen as desperate or cheap if they go around hitting on guys in a similar way guys do to them.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

andy0128 said:


> *Girls do express an interest in guys but it tends to me more subtle and indirect.* It might just be that we still have gender roles and women are seen as desperate or cheap if they go around hitting on guys in a similar way guys do to them.


True. In the past I tried showing interest in guys on this forum in my own kind of lame way, by replying to them frequently, trying to get them to converse with me more, showing support when they were upset, asking questions about things they're into, etc. They either never wished to engage with me or didn't understand/notice what I was trying to do. (Most of them outright ignored me. :| Maybe they did understand what I was doing and my attention offended them?--see below.)

Since then I've seen repeatedly that many guys here (not all, but many) would feel offended or discouraged if an unattractive woman were to hit on them. (They think, "Is this really the best I can attract?--what does that say about my own attractiveness, when only ugly women approach me?") Even guys who say they would be flattered then admit they would still turn her down. (As is their right, but it still hurts.) So that, combined with the total lack of response to my efforts, put a damper on me approaching guys first.

Almost every single guy I showed interest in ended up flirting and pairing off with other, prettier/more outgoing women on this forum (I'd be trying to chat them up in a thread, they'd be ignoring my posts, and responding to posts from other women, literally all on the same page), so that convinced me it's pointless to try. :/

This is a big reason why the "All that women have to do is sit and look pretty" argument is useless even if there's a grain of truth to it. It only applies to _hot women_ (and then usually only if they're outgoing/sociable). Most women aren't highly attractive, and many women are just plain ugly, like me.

Maybe it'd be easier if all we wanted was a one-night stand, but many of us don't.

...

:blah I don't know why I'm even bothering. (Not aimed at you, @*andy0128* , but this thread.)


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## Astron92 (Nov 9, 2016)

Because gender roles. If you're in a position of power then why bother doing work when the other side can?


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

That's only in the initial stages of dating. The reason why is because so many guys are only after sex. 

But 2 of out my 4 relationships, I was the one that picked them out though. I thought they were very cute. 

Once the relationship is underway, I think women do more than men to keep it going. They are the ones arranging various social events with family and friends. Keeping track of birthdays, anniversaries, initiating couples therapy, wanting to talk out problems, etc.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

komorikun said:


> Keeping track of birthdays.


LMFAO. :grin2:


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Karsten said:


> LMFAO. :grin2:


Of relatives I mean. I guess Facebook does that for you now. I had one older roommate who had all her friends' and relatives' birthdays written on a regular wall calendar. Impressive.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

komorikun said:


> Of relatives I mean. I guess Facebook does that for you now. I had one older roommate who had all her friends' and relatives' birthdays written on a regular wall calendar. Impressive.


I'm laughing cause it's true. I could give a **** about those sort of things.


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## DarrellLicht (Mar 9, 2013)

Because for the longest time it places women at a disadvantage if they choose the wrong mate. A women will initiate a segway for you to approach if she thinks you're her type. 

A girlfriend (boyfriend vice versa) should just be regarded as a luxury perk to share in life. Not this be all, end all entity to satisfy your every sensibilities. Can you imagine what that would feel like to you if someone places this kind of expectation on you?


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Q: Why do women get all this attention without having to lift a finger?
A: Because men give it to them.

Solution: Stop giving it to them.

Oh what, you suddenly find yourself at a disadvantage compared to other men, who continue to give women attention? I guess we found out who the real culprit is: other men.

This problem really has nothing at all to do with how women behave. The problem starts and ends with the behavior of men. You're making it women's fault that you have to compete with other men for their attention. If you want it to change, convince other men to stop chasing women.

Good luck. :smile2:


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## Xenacat (Oct 20, 2015)

the collector said:


> I don't get it. Men have to make the first move. Men have to initiate dating. Men have to ask the questions and peer to try and get to know the woman.Women just have to sit pretty.By no means is it like this in all cases.But, it seems to me that most women just want to sit pretty and let the guy put most of the effort in.
> 
> Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk


Every time I have tried to initiate, it backfires on me. Guys think something is wrong with you or you're desperate. Just talking about my personal experience.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

truant said:


> Q: Why do women get all this attention without having to lift a finger?
> A: Because men give it to them.
> 
> Solution: Stop giving it to them.
> ...


:clap

I've never understood why the men here aren't more bitter toward _other men_ who have better luck--or work harder--than they do. Even the ones who do express such bitterness...reserve the bulk of that bitterness for the _women_.

This will be disregarded by the target audience, unfortunately.

It's kind of weird, considering the OP's history with women...


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

Xenacat said:


> Every time I have tried to initiate, it backfires on me. Guys think something is wrong with you or you're desperate. Just talking about my personal experience.


Yeah, this too.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

@truant @tehuti88

If reality were like the minds of the frustration forum, then each year the loser at Wimbledon would be infuriated at the prize money for having such an easy time of it.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> @truant
> @tehuti88
> 
> If reality were like the minds of the frustration forum, then each year the loser at Wimbledon would be infuriated at the prize money for having such an easy time of it.


It's worth noting that the OP has a long term girlfriend who he manages to cheat on often. So when you consider that context, this thread is ridiculous.


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## Mondo_Fernando (Jun 26, 2014)

Xenacat said:


> Every time I have tried to initiate, it backfires on me. Guys think something is wrong with you or you're desperate. Just talking about my personal experience.


Nothing to do with you.

Men get bad experiences where some women look at men as something to play with for amusement (lead men on) or treat men as men treat women.

When see that behaviour they tend to back off and think it's not genuine.

When a person (man or woman) is genuinely interested, they usually don't act that way. Men, women just know when it's right.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> It's worth noting that the OP has a long term girlfriend who he manages to cheat on often. So when you consider that context, this thread is ridiculous.


Oh I just assumed trollery. Is it not that?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> Oh I just assumed trollery. Is it not that?


Could be, but he's been here for years and quite committed to the one bit if so.


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## AllTheSame (Mar 19, 2016)

Tbh...I don't mind traditional gender roles wrt dating sometimtimes. Guys, most of the time, are expected to approach. But not always. There are advantages and disadvantages there, obviously. Approaching is hard at times but in my experience it's not that difficult if you read body language, eye contact, if you know when she's giving you an opening. There are times when I'm sure it's much harder, much more frustrating to be a woman when you're expected to just sit there and wait and be approached....and if you do approach a guy you're seen as desperate or something.

I've been approached a few times but in my experience it's rare, ffs. Both my ex wives approached me. The last one, who I was married to for 18 years, got a mutual friend at university to introduce us, it was all her doing lol. But I've initiated in some of the other relationships I've been in, for sure. I actually don't mind doing it, although it sends my anxiety through the roof sometimes.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Persephone The Dread said:


> You can, but of course the psychology of the majority gets in the way of that being a realistic option.


Exactly. I'm naturally passive and lack the aggressive drive to charm, lead, and take care of women that men who have been socialized in our society have. So being myself for the past 30 years has landed me a total of one date.



Persephone The Dread said:


> By the way that's not what guys do if they want to be attractive to women lol, you are behaving like a feminist stereotype of men.


It's not, but developing a more masculine mindset is. No woman will be like, "Oh I like that guy because he explains to me things I already know / manspreads on the train". But having such attitudes allows a man to feel more agency, like that the world is HIS world, and THAT is more attractive to women in this society. Of course women who are isolated and don't have as much social conditioning will disagree.


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## sad1231234 (Jul 10, 2016)

Its probably just the way people are, its instinct for men to be the ones who usually try to approach females. But sometimes females approach guys first. But dont wait around forever for someone to approach you because women generally tend to think that you're not interested in them if you dont show any signs of interest, and signs of interest include being the first to apporoach.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Astron92 said:


> Because gender roles. If you're in a position of power then why bother doing work when the other side can?


Unless you're a hot woman, you're pretty much powerless in that you're limited to the men who find YOU attractive. What if the kind of man you like is not the kind who hits on you? So you have to settle.

Men actually have more power in that most of their attractiveness is based on their achievements and personality. I can become more attractive if I get rid of my social anxiety and trauma and shame, start believing I'm the s**t, and take charge of my sex life. Whereas if you're a woman, you can improve your makeup and fashion skills, but if you don't have the right genes, then you're kinda f**ked to some extent.

Learning the social skills of masculinity AFTER learning about the truth of feminism makes me feel like a sociopath.


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

vicente said:


> snip


Hehe, I know what you've been reading. Keep at it. There is a lot of great material to learn. Do entertain the ideas, but be willing to let them go. And please don't become bitter like a lot of other men.


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

It's all about your mindset. A lot of men complain that women don't have to approach because men are the ones who pursue them. And as a result shy men get left in the dust. You're looking at it from a wrong angle. 

Instead, look at it from a perspective of as a man, you have the power to approach anybody you want. If you're a woman who has to rely on men making the first move, then you become dependent upon being approached instead of branching out. But as a man, you can't become dependent on girls coming to talk to you so if you want any shot at love, you're forced to overcome your shyness. And as a result, this makes you tougher and overcome adversity and you appreciate being in a relationship even more as a result because you worked for it. 


I mean yeah it's true, women do have it easier dating wise. I think that should be obvious for those who really pay attention. However the fact that women have to wait for men to approach them isn't always advantageous.


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

The reason why women don't approach is because they don't have to. It's easier to let someone approach you than you approaching them. You have to remember that many women are shy too. Young and decently attractive women do not have a shortage of men trying to hit on them or talk to them. 

Think about it this way, you're hungry and have the option of either hunting for your food or simply going to a grocery store. If you're like most people, you will get food at a grocery store simply because it's easier doing so. But if there is no grocery store, then you are forced to hunt for your food otherwise you will die. The majority of women have a grocery store nearby to shop for their food so there is no need to put any extra effort to go hunt. But for most men, they don't have the luxury of food in a grocery store so they're forced to hunt for their food or they will die. 

What this means is that as a man if you want any sort of success with women, you have to approach first otherwise you will miss out on a girlfriend or sex. When you hit the water, it's basically sink or swim. And if you don't like it, well too bad because complaining about it won't get you laid. I'm sorry to sound harsh but it's the truth. Learn to accept things you can't change otherwise it will consume you. If you want to have a girlfriend, then you have to put in an effort to put yourself out there.

It can be as simple as trying to be friends with girls as well, so learn to talk to all girls, even the ones you arne't attracted to so this can build up your confidence. Sometimes you have to learn how to ride a horse before you can compete in the Kentucky Derby. You cant possibly get a girlfriend if you have no idea on how to talk to girls.


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## Astron92 (Nov 9, 2016)

vicente said:


> Unless you're a hot woman, you're pretty much powerless in that you're limited to the men who find YOU attractive. What if the kind of man you like is not the kind who hits on you? So you have to settle.
> 
> Men actually have more power in that most of their attractiveness is based on their achievements and personality. I can become more attractive if I get rid of my social anxiety and trauma and shame, start believing I'm the s**t, and take charge of my sex life. Whereas if you're a woman, you can improve your makeup and fashion skills, but if you don't have the right genes, then you're kinda f**ked to some extent.
> 
> Learning the social skills of masculinity AFTER learning about the truth of feminism makes me feel like a sociopath.


I like to look at the advantages of genders for relationships like fishing. Men fish with a fishing rod, which is an active attempt and unless they're really good at fishing they'll usually be content with whatever fish they pull. Women on the other hand use a net, which is passive and doesn't require much effort so they can afford the throw out any undesirable fish and cast again until something better comes along. Obviously it's not set in stone for _every_ man and woman but I know I probably triggered a handful of people already.

I imagine most people wind up settling anyway in a sense, otherwise nearly everyone would be dating models. The thing about men having more "power" through achievements and personality is that those are much higher requirements. Along with overcoming SA, trauma, and shame like you said you'll have to have achieving breakthroughs in life just to be on par desirability-wise to a girl with a snobby personality that has nothing going for her other than the fact that she looks cute when she applies her makeup.

Also I notice the need for men's mental health to be in check as well before attempting relationships, but that might tie into what you said about personality being a factor.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Astron92 said:


> I like to look at the advantages of genders for relationships like fishing. Men fish with a fishing rod, which is an active attempt and unless they're really good at fishing they'll usually be content with whatever fish they pull. Women on the other hand use a net, which is passive and doesn't require much effort so they can afford the throw out any undesirable fish and cast again until something better comes along. Obviously it's not set in stone for _every_ man and woman but I know I probably triggered a handful of people already.
> 
> I imagine most people wind up settling anyway in a sense, otherwise nearly everyone would be dating models. The thing about men having more "power" through achievements and personality is that those are much higher requirements. Along with overcoming SA, trauma, and shame like you said you'll have to have achieving breakthroughs in life just to be on par desirability-wise to a girl with a snobby personality that has nothing going for her other than the fact that she looks cute when she applies her makeup.
> 
> Also I notice the need for men's mental health to be in check as well before attempting relationships, but that might tie into what you said about personality being a factor.


So require those things of women. Require that they be mentally healthy. That they be confident, have good jobs, interesting personalities. Make them do all the work. Make them approach you. _You can already do all of these things. There is nothing at all stopping you from imposing these standards on women._

You just don't want to.

Because you don't care about anything but what a woman looks like. As long as "she looks cute when she applies her makeup", she'll do in a pinch. If you can't nab a model, that is. (How, exactly, would everyone get a model, btw? Do they come off an assembly line somewhere?) This problem has nothing to do with women. You won't impose any standards on a woman's character or accomplishments because you want the most beautiful woman you can get (and heavens, what if she's a complete witch? Well, you'll just find a way to deal with it, I imagine), and because every man wants the same thing, you have to compete ferociously with each other to get her. This is a problem created by men that affects other men.

Women's passivity IS the lack of standards men impose on them. They're not two different things. If you impose no standards, then how is she going to act on them? Even if she works hard and gets a degree and a good job, your complete indifference to her accomplishments means that her ability to attract a man is still completely passive. She can't _not_ be passive because you give her absolutely no way to be active.

I can be brilliant, witty, accomplished, rich, talented, principled, and do all the pursuing and what good will it do me? All you care about is what I look like. Your indifference imposes passivity on me because it gives me no way to leverage anything but my body. You see how that works? If you don't understand that, you will never understand the problem.

You men can complain all you want about how easy women have it; how much harder men have to work for it; and the whole thing is your own fault. Women can't fix this problem for you because the problem is rooted in your own standards. If men don't want to impose standards on women in any area but her appearance, which is completely passive, then what are we supposed to do to fix this problem? We have no other way of working for your affections.

The reason why you need to be and do all those things is because you are competing against men who have and do all those things. So yes: the prettiest girls will have the highest standards because she has the best suitors (and many more of them) competing for her attention. Expecting her to choose anything less than the best option is expecting her to behave irrationally and contrary to her own happiness. She has to decide who to date _somehow_, and the criteria she uses to make that decision are her 'standards'.

These standards are those legendary golden hoops conjured up in the minds of men and ranted about all over the manosphere. And these 'standards', the criteria the most attractive women use to make their decisions, is what you focus on and where you place the blame for your own lack of success. You blame the _rational_ behavior of women when it comes to the _irrational_ behavior of men. To solve your problems for you, you actually expect women to behave more irrationally; to consciously choose partners they consider less desirable so that you don't have to work so hard.

A decision, you may be sure, no man in the history of the world would ever be willing to make.


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## AndiLynne (Feb 21, 2017)

I broke the stereotype.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

truant said:


> To solve your problems for you, you actually expect women to behave more irrationally; *to consciously choose partners they consider less desirable so that you don't have to work so hard*.


There's actually at least one guy on this forum whose posts make it clear that's _exactly_ what he expects women to do, so he and guys like him can get their "fair share." Scary and sad.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

truant said:


> So require those things of women. Require that they be mentally healthy. That they be confident, have good jobs, interesting personalities. Make them do all the work. Make them approach you. _You can already do all of these things. There is nothing at all stopping you from imposing these standards on women._
> 
> You just don't want to.
> 
> ...


I live this method and it doesn't work. I get turned off by hot models with dumb shallow personalities, and get turned on by 50 year olds moms and homeless women with lice if they have the right personality.

The reason why it doesn't work is: Heterosexual dating in our society follows patriarchal norms. If you make yourself different from these norms, you are moving yourself outside of the dating system that society, including women, have accepted. And thus you're outside of the dating pool.

An analogy is this. Women are looking for fish in the pond. The pond has a lot of ugly bad-tasting fish. There is also a secret lake that nobody knows about. There, the waters are clear and the fish are beautiful and tasty. Yet the women all end up with the same fish in the same pond because it does not cross their mind that this other lake exists.

Change cannot come from a single individual. It is a SYSTEM that exists independent of a single person's bias. Only if society changes will men and women's behaviors and tastes change


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Karsten said:


> I feel the same way.
> 
> Also, a lot of the people who complain about this dating dynamic are willfully ignorant to how the same dynamic benefits them in other areas of their life.
> 
> ...


While a lot of men clearly cross the line (and I make no excuses for them), not all of the unwanted approaching that some women complain about is of this extreme nature. I often wonder why more women don't do the approaching considering many find being approached problematic. If they _truly_ believe that gender is a social construct then they should try to challenge and change the current construct to better suit them. Men are unlikely to feel physically threatened if a women they aren't attracted to approaches them so it would make it much easier if women did the approaching. I don't actually expect this to happen but if you expect men to make the approach, unwanted approaches by men seems to be an obvious consequence.

Personally I wouldn't be scared off by a woman approaching me (she may still be rejected, that's just the risk you're taking when you ask), if anything it would make me more attracted to her as I would think that she is the type of woman who would actually communicate issues to me rather than being passive aggressive and expecting me to be a mind reader.



komorikun said:


> That's only in the initial stages of dating. The reason why is because so many guys are only after sex.
> 
> But 2 of out my 4 relationships, I was the one that picked them out though. I thought they were very cute.
> 
> Once the relationship is underway, I think women do more than men to keep it going. They are the ones arranging various social events with family and friends. Keeping track of birthdays, anniversaries, initiating couples therapy, wanting to talk out problems, etc.


Is a lack of consideration and being unwilling to put effort into your relationship really considered typical male behaviour? That's a genuine question BTW, if it is then while I think men should demand more initially, women should demand more later. Though some of those complaints just sound like you're not looking for men who want/value the same things as you, if arranging social events and sending people birthday cards is important to you you should look for men who care about doing that sort of thing.



truant said:


> Women's passivity IS the lack of standards men impose on them. They're not two different things. If you impose no standards, then how is she going to act on them?


Agreed, the same is true for the things women typically complain about men for doing/not doing, especially if men are all desperate for sex as we're often told. If that's true then women have more power to shape behaviour, even if the behaviour being displayed is not genuine.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

LonelyLurker said:


> Is a lack of consideration and being willing to put effort into your relationship really considered typical male behaviour? That's a genuine question BTW, if it is then while I think men should demand more initially, women should demand more later. Though some of those complaints just sound like you're not looking for men who want/value the same things as you, if arranging social events and sending people birthday cards is important to you you should look for men who care about doing that sort of thing.


It's clearly not about me. I do see other women do this though. Men don't seem do nearly as much. I've also read that men are much more likely to divorce their spouse if she gets cancer than vice-versa.

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/

I've been accused of being anti-social. I want nothing to do with a bf's friends and family. I had one ex get annoyed that I didn't want to attend all his parents' and many siblings' birthday parties. He wanted me to become friends with his mother.... :roll


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## Zatch (Apr 28, 2013)

I think women are burdened either risking it with guys they like, getting **** from the guys that they don't, or forgoing/missing out on any relationship and still getting **** for it.

I don't to think it's easy so much as it's just a different ballpark. I fail to see it any other way, as often as these threads recur.


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## Mondo_Fernando (Jun 26, 2014)

Just have to shake a feather -






And they will come a flocking.  :grin2:

Yeah, this thread needs some humour, as is so serious.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

tehuti88 said:


> Yeah, it's so easy for us since _every single woman on Earth_ is pretty and wants nothing but a one-night stand with a horny guy who'll move on to the next pretty woman immediately afterward!
> 
> Oh, wait.


"By no means is it like this in all cases"

What do you think that means..?

Yes, there are exceptions, but generally this is the way it works.

Not going to take sides or comment on the topic itself as I don't really care about it that much...



splendidbob said:


> It doesn't matter why. _At all_. It is the way it is. Being annoyed at this is like being annoyed that cakes are high calorie. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, it isn't going to change.
> 
> There is an illusion that if people just understood "how unfair it all is" then things would change. It wont.


This is a very good point and something I often think of when reading complain threads. If anything can't really be done about it, complaining won't make it better.


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## jt1128 (Feb 23, 2017)

Dont approach women or start the conversation.. let them approach you first


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

komorikun said:


> It's clearly not about me. I do see other women do this though. Men don't seem do nearly as much. I've also read that men are much more likely divorce their spouse if she gets cancer than vice-versa.
> 
> https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/
> 
> I've been accused of being anti-social. I want nothing to do with a bf's friends and family. I had one ex get annoyed that I didn't want to attend all his parents' and many siblings' birthday parties. He wanted me to become friends with his mother.... :roll


Oh OK, thanks for the clarification.:smile2:

The findings of that article are abhorrent and I couldn't imagine doing that myself, if anything it would make me stay even if I had previously been considering leaving. It would be interesting to see if there are any areas where the tables are turned, maybe if the man is no longer able to be a provider.

It sounds like you were the stereotypical "male" in that relationship.:laugh:

To me it boils down to this, if you refuse to state your demands up front (because that's not how things are done) and hope for the best you don't get to complain when your unspoken desires are not met (that's not directed at you obviously).


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Veracity said:


> I think women are burdened either risking it with guys they like, getting **** from the guys that they don't, or forgoing/missing out on any relationship and still getting **** for it.
> 
> I don't to think it's easy so much as it's just a different ballpark. I fail to see it any other way, as often as these threads recur.


I agree, therefore it would be in their interests to start approaching men they like. If they are d*mned if they do and d*mned if they don't then they might as well do what maximises their probability of successfully finding relationships with men they like, taking an active role in the matter.

Think of how many women are probably desired by men they in fact also desire but nothing ever happens because he doesn't approach (for whatever reason) and she doesn't think it's her place to do so (for whatever reason). It just seems so stupid to me, if we were ever able to move past this nonsense we'd all be better off.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

ANX1 said:


> Just have to shake a feather -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And what about the men who don't have beautiful plumage? This is tantamount to body shaming, I won't report you on this occasion but consider yourself warned.:laugh:


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## Visionary (Apr 13, 2010)

I haven't been asked out by any guys

There are just those girls that are attractive and don't have to put the effort into asking guys. Just how things work. 

I am for one not one of those very attractive girls and had to ask guys out

Though most of them said they were shy and didn't know how to ask me out, but sometimes hormones take over and make it easy. (if you know what I mean)


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## Mondo_Fernando (Jun 26, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> And what about the men who don't have beautiful plumage? This is tantamount to body shaming, I won't report you on this occasion but consider yourself warned.:laugh:


They are for the birds.  :grin2: :lol


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## Mondo_Fernando (Jun 26, 2014)

@Visionary


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

It really doesn't take that much effort for the average guy. SA makes things more difficult of course but this thread appears to be generalising on the larger scale.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Visionary said:


> I haven't been asked out by any guys
> 
> There are just those girls that are attractive and don't have to put the effort into asking guys. Just how things work.
> 
> ...


Congratulations on taking the initiative.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Raies said:


> This is a very good point and something I often think of when reading complain threads. If anything can't really be done about it, complaining won't make it better.


Yup, you kinda have to think "well why is it men end up doing the initiating most of the time?".

It's things like (off the top of my head):

1. Instinctive (biological) behaviour resulting from when women had to be far more choosey since they carry the long term consequences of mating (baby). Whether as a species we now have birth control, it's irrelevant, since those instincts will _still_ be operating on us

2. Tradition and social norm. Changeable perhaps long term (hundreds of years), but not by complaining on the internet.

3. Game theory. When 1 and 2 are present, when men already intiate then:
a. There is no reason for women to initiate (initiating sucks) - there might be for some women, but for the majority, it seems like there is no incentive to alter their behaviour
b. There is no reason for men to not initiate. In a competition were all men to decide to universally stop initiating, it would be super beneficial for some men to break this agreement. Even initiating badly would be worth it because all the other men would be sitting on their thumbs. So basically the agreement would break down and back to square one.

In order for women to start initiating en masse, there would need to be some kind of advantage for the majority involved. There isn't. It is only the SA men who struggle currently approaching who suffer in the current situation. Other men don't care (they have partners, even the sub 8/10, sub 6 ft 2, small footed ones), women don't care. It wont change, so complaining is like shouting at a rock.

But complain SAS shall


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> Yup, you kinda have to think "well why is it men end up doing the initiating most of the time?".
> 
> It's things like (off the top of my head):
> 
> ...


Firstly, I agree that this is the way things are that they are unlikely to be changing any time soon, if ever.

However, I would say that there is an incentive for women who either don't get approached or aren't happy with the men that approach them. Otherwise you're right, there would be no incentive outside of altruism, which isn't likely:laugh:.

I also suspect that there are many men who don't bother to approach certain women as they incorrectly assume they wouldn't be interested. So even if they can go on to get other relationships they may be settling when in reality they could have been able to do "better", using whatever metrics are important to them (there are other metrics than looks contrary to popular belief:smile2.

But yeah, moaning about it is pointless outside of just venting (which I guess can be therapeutic). You can either accept the rules and play the game or decide it's unacceptable and refuse to participate until you can find a game with better rules. Whichever way you decide to go, there's no point in being bitter about it.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> Firstly, I agree that this is the way things are that they are unlikely to be changing any time soon, if ever.
> 
> However, I would say that there is an incentive for women who either don't get approached or aren't happy with the men that approach them. Otherwise you're right, there would be no incentive outside of altruism, which isn't likely:laugh:.
> 
> ...


Yeh, pretty much. I mean, yeh there are incentives for women to ask men I guess, if a woman is confident, and wants to do so, then she has an advantage over other women who just wait to be approached, or women who aren't approached would have that incentive too.

But if the majority of women can just wait around to be approached, and they get what they want from this, since approaching sucks, then that's what they will do . Basically irrational to do otherwise.

But yeh, I feel perhaps I am flogging a dead horse now with the whole pragmatism thing, surely by now people must realise that the world is what it is?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

LonelyLurker said:


> Firstly, I agree that this is the way things are that they are unlikely to be changing any time soon, if ever.
> 
> However, I would say that there is an incentive for women who either don't get approached or aren't happy with the men that approach them. Otherwise you're right, there would be no incentive outside of altruism, which isn't likely:laugh:.
> 
> ...


The women who don't get approached or don't get approached by guys they like, without SA, would approach guys I think. Well some would just sit around and complain about it but I'm sorry I do think women that do that are dumb (and worse than the guys here if they don't have SA.)


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

I do most of that in my relationships, as I attract almost exclusively shy men. Sometimes to the point they barely say two words any time I bring something up.

Doing all the work isn't fun, but that's life sometimes.


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> Firstly, I agree that this is the way things are that they are unlikely to be changing any time soon, if ever.
> 
> However, I would say that there is an incentive for women who either don't get approached or aren't happy with the men that approach them. Otherwise you're right, there would be no incentive outside of altruism, which isn't likely:laugh:.
> 
> ...


I think it's more and more common nowadays for women to approach at least in certain cities or circles. I've gotten so many times "oh I really liked you but I didn't think you'd be interested lol." Then they try to hit on me.

I approach now and it's not a big deal to me. I kind of have to approach because I like so few guys, plus the type I like aren't as likely to approach me as other kind of brash types. Or they're quick to assume I wouldn't like them. If I waited for a guy I actually like to approach I'd probably be single the rest of my life.


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## Overdrive (Sep 19, 2015)

life problem n°185


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

vicente said:


> I live this method and it doesn't work. I get turned off by hot models with dumb shallow personalities, and get turned on by 50 year olds moms and homeless women with lice if they have the right personality.
> 
> The reason why it doesn't work is: Heterosexual dating in our society follows patriarchal norms. If you make yourself different from these norms, you are moving yourself outside of the dating system that society, including women, have accepted. And thus you're outside of the dating pool.
> 
> ...


Do you want to date a woman who expects you to take on a role you dislike taking on? I've read some of your posts before and think you'll end up unhappy since you like 'masculine' proactive women. I don't know though, maybe any woman is better? I'm not quite your age or anywhere near lonely enough to deal with a dynamic I dislike, even if they look good. but given the way things are, I can understand why you'd cave in. I feel sorry for you I guess. I wonder if there is a dating site for people that want to flip things.

Unless you do want to take on the stereotypical male role, but just feel like you can't. That's most guys here's problem, I'm just not sure if it's yours or not. And if it's not, improving at it won't help you.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> Yeh, pretty much. I mean, yeh there are incentives for women to ask men I guess, if a woman is confident, and wants to do so, then she has an advantage over other women who just wait to be approached, or women who aren't approached would have that incentive too.
> 
> But if the majority of women can just wait around to be approached, and they get what they want from this, since approaching sucks, then that's what they will do . Basically irrational to do otherwise.
> 
> But yeh, I feel perhaps I am flogging a dead horse now with the whole pragmatism thing, surely by now people must realise that the world is what it is?


Perhaps delusion is itself pragmatic given the fallibility of human cognition (mind blown w/suitable sound effects and hand gestures).:O


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> The women who don't get approached or don't get approached by guys they like, without SA, would approach guys I think. Well some would just sit around and complain about it but I'm sorry I do think women that do that are dumb (and worse than the guys here if they don't have SA.)


You would hope so though I'm not so sure, but looking at some of the posts between yours and this one there may be more reason to have hope than I thought.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Moxi said:


> I do most of that in my relationships, as I attract almost exclusively shy men. Sometimes to the point they barely say two words any time I bring something up.
> 
> Doing all the work isn't fun, but that's life sometimes.


That's not fair either, if you're clearly making an effort they have a duty to try and reciprocate in whatever way they can, at least in my opinion.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

realisticandhopeful said:


> I think it's more and more common nowadays for women to approach at least in certain cities or circles. I've gotten so many times "oh I really liked you but I didn't think you'd be interested lol." Then they try to hit on me.
> 
> I approach now and it's not a big deal to me. I kind of have to approach because I like so few guys, plus the type I like aren't as likely to approach me as other kind of brash types. Or they're quick to assume I wouldn't like them. If I waited for a guy I actually like to approach I'd probably be single the rest of my life.


I think a lot of women would be surprised at how many men who don't approach are actually interested, maybe men would be surprised too, I guess I'd need you (or other women) to tell me that.

Respect on going to get what you want, that's impressive, especially considering the SA.


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

LonelyLurker said:


> That's not fair either, if you're clearly making an effort they have a duty to try and reciprocate in whatever way they can, at least in my opinion.


I fully agree. Any relationship without effort and honesty on both sides is doomed.

I recently split with someone I saw for a few weeks who was pretty talkative at first. Successfully faked it until he made it and then said that the time we were up talking for like 3+ hours and having fun was not how he normally was.

Example, I'd text him that I'd just picked up a new instrument feeling super-hyped up about it, and he'd send back a smiley emote. I left when I realized I was talking to people in video games who aren't even my friends more than I was talking to him.

Every time I find out flirting is mutual, I also find out the guy is shy around girls, anxious, etc. I'm like candy to them. I wish the anxiety was the only problem.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Moxi said:


> I fully agree. Any relationship without effort and honesty on both sides is doomed.
> 
> I recently split with someone I saw for a few weeks who was pretty talkative at first. Successfully faked it until he made it and then said that the time we were up talking for like 3+ hours and having fun was not how he normally was.
> 
> ...


Have you ever told them that you need more from them? If so what did they say? "I'm not usually talkative" isn't really an acceptable answer, relationships are supposed to be about compromise right?

What instrument did you pick up, church organ?


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> Perhaps delusion is itself pragmatic given the fallibility of human cognition (mind blown w/suitable sound effects and hand gestures).:O


Delusion / self deception is pretty useful as a defence mechanism. When you are a fox and you really can't reach those grapes, there is some value in managing to convince yourself you never wanted them anyway, or that it is someone else's fault. (I am ofc a world class self deceiver with such cognitive dissonance)

"Well I can't approach and interact well with women, its something else's fault other than me / my anxiety..."

These "it's not fair" / "women have it easier" / "it's xxxx fault not mine" just seem like the fox trying to justify why exactly it isn't his job / doesn't want to try to get the grapes at all.

Ultimately I don't care if people can't get the grapes, or don't think they can, I just wish they would keep it to themselves rather than trying to convince the world that it's the trees responsibility to lower the branch. Trees can't do that.


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

LonelyLurker said:


> Have you ever told them that you need more from them? If so what did they say? "I'm not usually talkative" isn't really an acceptable answer, relationships are supposed to be about compromise right?
> 
> What instrument did you pick up, church organ?


I've had this problem in multiple relationships, and the result is always the same. I bring it up, I explain that I need to be able to sit down and have time just to talk, discuss, and share, without video games, TV, or phones. Maybe once or twice a week for an hour or two, nothing excessive.

They say they agree, and will work on it. Minimal progress is made. I continue to feel like I can't really share my little accomplishments or excitements with them, and shift my focus to my friends and family instead so that I stop feeling so lonely. We break up, and I feel like nothing in my life has changed because they were such a small part of it.

I picked up ukulele as my first string instrument, by the way.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Moxi said:


> I've had this problem in multiple relationships, and the result is always the same. I bring it up, I explain that I need to be able to sit down and have time just to talk, discuss, and share, without video games, TV, or phones. Maybe once or twice a week for an hour or two, nothing excessive.
> 
> They say they agree, and will work on it. Minimal progress is made. I continue to feel like I can't really share my little accomplishments or excitements with them, and shift my focus to my friends and family instead so that I stop feeling so lonely. We break up, and I feel like nothing in my life has changed because they were such a small part of it.
> 
> I picked up ukulele as my first string instrument, by the way.


That's a shame, it sounds like you did everything that could have been reasonably expected of you, hopefully the next one will either be a little more talkative or at least willing to give it a good try.

Do you know how to play it or are you still learning?


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

LonelyLurker said:


> That's a shame, it sounds like you did everything that could have been reasonably expected of you, hopefully the next one will either be a little more talkative or at least willing to give it a good try.
> 
> Do you know how to play it or are you still learning?


I don't really want to date right now, actually, I'm just too pooped. All that time spent drawing people out of their shells could have been spent on something else. What if every time I'd practiced the ukulele instead? I'd be jamming on it right now. I'm 28 and not getting any younger.

I've had it for 3 weeks so I'm still a learner.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

splendidbob said:


> It doesn't matter why. _At all_. It is the way it is. Being annoyed at this is like being annoyed that cakes are high calorie. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, it isn't going to change.
> 
> There is an illusion that if people just understood "how unfair it all is" then things would change. It wont.


Couldn't you have argued the same with women and work in the 40s?

If we didn't think social dynamics could change, there'd be very little point in anything.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Milco said:


> Couldn't you have argued the same with women and work in the 40s?
> 
> If we didn't think social dynamics could change, there'd be very little point in anything.


1. I would assume a significant biological driver in this behaviour, that isn't likely to change easily.

2. Sure, go nuts with a movement for this or whatever, but since most men and most women are perfectly happy the way it is, not much is likely to happen.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

splendidbob said:


> 1. I would assume a significant biological driver in this behaviour, that isn't likely to change easily.
> 
> 2. Sure, go nuts with a movement for this or whatever, but since most men and most women are perfectly happy the way it is, not much is likely to happen.


Many things have a biological driver though and many people are perfectly happy with things that have negative consequences for others.
It seems rather absurd to me that we can argue for women's liberation, for trans-acceptance, for gay rights, while saying men should just man up and any unfairness is just tough luck and shouldn't change.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Milco said:


> Many things have a biological driver though and many people are perfectly happy with things that have negative consequences for others.
> It seems rather absurd to me that we can argue for women's liberation, for trans-acceptance, for gay rights, while saying men should just man up and any unfairness is just tough luck and shouldn't change.


I am not saying men should just "man up". But who are you going to appeal to? It isn't like women being prevented from being in the workplace, women can _already_ approach if they want to. Men can approach if they want to. As it stands, both males and females have the choice and option to approach, yet women usually don't. There is nothing systemic preventing the behaviour of approaching the opposite sex from either sex, the freedom to do so is already there.

How could this desired change be enacted?

You can argue util you are blue in the face, but I am not sure who is going to listen and say "good point, I will change things"


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

splendidbob said:


> There is nothing systemic preventing the behaviour of approaching the opposite sex from either sex.
> 
> How could this desired change be enacted?
> 
> You can argue util you are blue in the face, but I am not sure who is going to listen and say "good point, I will change things"


You're turning it upside down though.
There's also nothing systemic preventing employers from paying female employees as much as male employees - to give a typically raised example.
But when other women are willing to work for less it won't change, so it's pointless to complain about. Nbody is going to listen to them and is really the fault of other women.

Or perhaps we could try having ideas of fairness and how we actually want society that are different from how things happen to be.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Milco said:


> You're turning it upside down though.
> There's also nothing systemic preventing employers from paying female employees as much as male employees - to give a typically raised example.
> But when other women are willing to work for less it won't change, so it's pointless to complain about. Nbody is going to listen to them and is really the fault of other women.
> 
> Or perhaps we could try having ideas of fairness and how we actually want society that are different from how things happen to be.


You've noted the obvious double standard that exists in society between women's and men's issues, however I think that's why attempts to try and change the wage gap situation ultimately won't work. Women aren't going to stop having kids/wanting to spend time with them, wanting a good work/life balance etc. You can probably lower the gap if guys decide to spend more time with their kid(s) and couples balance family stuff more, but I think there will always be more guys who spend forever at work and as a result get paid more than women because there's no incentive for women to become extreme work horses. If anything there's incentive for them not to - men don't tend to want to date a workaholic or someone very driven in that area from what I've observed. And the men who do, don't care as much as the women who do.

^ And yeah, I'm certain dating preferences come into it because a pay gap exists between gay and straight men, and lesbian and straight women as well (lesbians earn more than straight women, gay men earn less than straight men.)

(slightly off topic but yeah.)


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Milco said:


> Or perhaps we could try having ideas of fairness and how we actually want society that are different from how things happen to be.


1. How is the way it currently works unfair?

2. How are you going to enact this change?

Since currently:

100% of women can approach if they want to
100% of men can approach if they want to

Where is the unfairness?

Say 80% of women are perfectly happy with the current situation (they don't have to approach, because approaching sucks). Say, 60% of men are unhappy with the current situation, because they managed to approach when other guys didn't and have a partner they are happy with.

How is this change going to be enforced? Is it going to be legislation? A series of adverts? Most people are happy with the way it is, it isn't a result of systemic bias, or social restriction, everyone can approach right now.

I just don't see how this change to women approaching men can be brought about.

So we say that "women prefer a confident man" all things considered. With that in mind, if there were pressure through advertising so that men were persuaded not to approach, the ones that can approach would anyway, because the increased confidence demonstrated would get them results. That isn't going to change, that is the biological preference for confidence among women.

What is your plan for this campaign? Who are you going to target, men or women?

Not having a go or anything, ofc, love ya Milco  - but I just don't see the practical point of any of this since we have a situation where there aren't any enforced social restrictions in play, everyone can approach, but this is the behaviour that seems to have naturally evolved. I also can't even see in what way this is "unfair". Perhaps that would be a good place to start.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Persephone The Dread said:


> You've noted the obvious double standard that exists in society between women's and men's issues, however I think that's why attempts to try and change the wage gap situation ultimately won't work. Women aren't going to stop having kids/wanting to spend time with them, wanting a good work/life balance etc. You can probably lower the gap if guys decide to spend more time with their kid(s) and couples balance family stuff more, but I think there will always be more guys who spend forever at work and as a result get paid more than women because there's no incentive for women to become extreme work horses. If anything there's incentive for them not to - men don't tend to want to date a workaholic or someone very driven in that area from what I've observed.
> 
> ^ And yeah, I'm certain dating preferences come into it because a pay gap exists between gay and straight men, and lesbian and straight women as well (lesbians earn more than straight women, gay men earn less than straight men.)
> 
> (slightly off topic but yeah.)


Some problems are very hard to find good answers to, especially when it's in the social sphere as you can't really do legislation, but I do think awareness matters and I think just pointing unfairness out will help move things towards something better, even if it takes a long time.

The group trends are not the most important question to me directly though. I worry about people being unhappy, being excluded or hurting.
So on the topic of something like parental leave, I think we have to ask questions and challenge automatic assumptions, so that a woman won't be socially forced to take the vast majority of it against her will. If we do that and the woman takes most completely willingly, perhaps we at least have better appreciation for our differences and understanding for the people who aren't comfortable.


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## Visionary (Apr 13, 2010)

LonelyLurker said:


> Congratulations on taking the initiative.


Thank you

I appreciate your enthusiasm for my initiatives


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## Neal (Jan 14, 2012)

Xenacat said:


> Every time I have tried to initiate, it backfires on me. Guys think something is wrong with you or you're desperate. Just talking about my personal experience.


Or it might inadvertently make them feel smaller. I know some dudes like to be in control.


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## Xenacat (Oct 20, 2015)

Neal said:


> Or it might inadvertently make them feel smaller. I know some dudes like to be in control.


It never works for me. I wish it did, lol!


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Milco said:


> Some problems are very hard to find good answers to, especially when it's in the social sphere as you can't really do legislation, but I do think awareness matters and I think just pointing unfairness out will help move things towards something better, even if it takes a long time.
> 
> The group trends are not the most important question to me directly though. I worry about people being unhappy, being excluded or hurting.
> So on the topic of something like parental leave, I think we have to ask questions and challenge automatic assumptions, so that a woman won't be socially forced to take the vast majority of it against her will. If we do that and the woman takes most completely willingly, perhaps we at least have better appreciation for our differences and understanding for the people who aren't comfortable.


Well it's something that seems to bother individual women, at least as many if not more as there are men who complain about women not approaching them. The difference is that they have a social movement (feminism,) behind them and men are expected to suck it up (in regards to many issues.)

I'm not sure it will change for guys either, since it's a social thing and if many women don't want to approach because they find it more attractive when a guy does, or because they have less self confidence, then guys have less chance of being approached by women. There isn't much you can do about that, when it comes down to things like that. Of course in homosexual dating people are more willing to expand roles, so it's not like heterosexual dating dynamics couldn't change a bit but even then there are still people who tend to approach and those that tend not to out of personal preference.

But you know, it's worth thinking about what else would change if this dynamic changed - it will move pressure to other areas like guys will have to start caring more about their looks in order to get approached.


----------



## Astron92 (Nov 9, 2016)

truant said:


> So require those things of women. Require that they be mentally healthy. That they be confident, have good jobs, interesting personalities. Make them do all the work. Make them approach you. _You can already do all of these things. There is nothing at all stopping you from imposing these standards on women._
> 
> You just don't want to.
> 
> ...


Lol what? The whole thing about the "girl in makeup" was just an example based off of the post I was quoting and has nothing to do with my actual standards. Besides, why would I have super high standards when I try and go after girls I feel are in my league? And aren't you a guy as well?


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Just about the only times I've had men hit on me was at bars and in online dating. Never happened at school, work, the grocery store, etc. Maybe a handful of times when I joined this one group. 

So it really doesn't happen much at all if you are only mediocre looking and don't go out actively searching for men.


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## Neal (Jan 14, 2012)

Xenacat said:


> It never works for me. I wish it did, lol!


Yeah people are confusing and random as hell. This is why im taking that trip to the moon that Elon Musk is setting up lol.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

Astron92 said:


> And aren't you a guy as well?


She's not.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

komorikun said:


> Just about the only times I've had men hit on me was at bars and in online dating. Never happened at school, work, the grocery store, etc. Maybe a handful of times when I joined this one group.
> 
> So it really doesn't happen much at all if you are only mediocre looking and don't go out actively searching for men.


 How do you think you'd respond to it if it did happen a lot? Would you like it or would you pretty much just want to go hide? Or something else?


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Astron92 said:


> Lol what? The whole thing about the "girl in makeup" was just an example based off of the post I was quoting and has nothing to do with my actual standards. Besides, why would I have super high standards when I try and go after girls I feel are in my league? And aren't you a guy as well?


This reply doesn't address any of my points.

Not a guy.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

WillYouStopDave said:


> How do you think you'd respond to it if it did happen a lot? Would you like it or would you pretty much just want to go hide? Or something else?


I get very nervous and uncomfortable when strangers talk to me on the street or in public places, so I'd probably just pretend I didn't hear them. If it were at school or in some group I was part of, you kind of have to give them an answer if they ask you out. Then it's all awkward afterwards if you said no.

It would make me more nervous in general. I suppose it would be worth the hassle, if I could find an attractive boyfriend easily.

I got a taste of this when I was living abroad; what it would be like to be a pretty woman. Not exactly the same though since part of it was just being exotic. Like some guys just wanted to see what it would be like to kiss or **** a white woman/American woman.


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## Astron92 (Nov 9, 2016)

truant said:


> This reply doesn't address any of my points.
> 
> Not a guy.


Not sure what your long rant was about but you'll get a guy eventually despite whatever it is you were trying to talk about. :stu


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## kageri (Oct 2, 2014)

Hey, if I sit around shaving, cleaning, and moisturizing for an hour and that's if you don't use makeup plus an occasional 4-8hrs sitting around with my head saran wrapped for hair treatment products to work you can spend 5mins starting a conversation :b

Actually I pursued my husband while he was still with his previous gf and kind of invited myself over to his place the first time. Also, I don't shave my legs all winter.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

Astron92 said:


> Not sure what your long rant was about but you'll get a guy eventually despite whatever it is you were trying to talk about. :stu


I think what she was saying was this:

1. Guy complains he has to do all the work while woman just has to sit there and look pretty
2. Woman only has to sit there and look pretty because guy doesn't care what else she has going for her

Women do care about certain things when they're looking for partners. It's not women's fault if men's only criteria for a date is 'Must look hot'.

And since that's men's only criteria, it's up to women to weed out the ones who feel they deserve a hot woman just because they approached her.

*Disclaimer: Not all men, just the ones in this thread, apparently.


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## AllTheSame (Mar 19, 2016)

kageri said:


> Hey, if I sit around shaving, cleaning, and moisturizing for an hour and that's if you don't use makeup plus an occasional 4-8hrs sitting around with my head saran wrapped for hair treatment products to work you can spend 5mins starting a conversation :b
> 
> Actually I pursued my husband while he was still with his previous gf and kind of invited myself over to his place the first time. Also, I don't shave my legs all winter.


Heh. You've got a point there. Not that I haven't realized before how much time and effort women have to put in to look pretty and get all dolled up...I have and I do realize. Ffs, I was married for 18 years. I remember just going out to dinner it took my ex hours to get ready. I never have had a problem with being the one that's expected to approach (traditionally). Just the way it is, that's how I've always thought about it. But when you put it like that then yeah, ffs, the least a guy can do is start up a conversation lol.

I think it's absolutely freaking awesome when a woman makes the first move or approaches first. It's happened to me but only a few times. And I think I can understand why....not only is it hard to approach and put yourself out there sometimes...but women aren't expected to do that so there's the stigma there (from some people) that it's wierd, also.

You seem like the kind of girl that goes out and gets what she wants ffs. Go you. Seriously. I sure as hell wouldn't get in your way lol.....


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Moxi said:


> I don't really want to date right now, actually, I'm just too pooped. All that time spent drawing people out of their shells could have been spent on something else. What if every time I'd practiced the ukulele instead? I'd be jamming on it right now. I'm 28 and not getting any younger.
> 
> I've had it for 3 weeks so I'm still a learner.


I can understand that, maybe you'd have better luck with the friends first approach. You'd probably have to be the one who makes the move if you made it to the friendship stage and he hadn't made one yet, but you've had practice.:smile2:

Well keep up the practicing, you never know, you might bump into someone who'd be willing to get a bongo (just the one, nothing crazy) and jam with you.:laugh:


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Visionary said:


> Thank you
> 
> I appreciate your enthusiasm for my initiatives


You're welcome.

I find your appreciation for my enthusiasm most comforting.:smile2:


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

kageri said:


> Hey, if I sit around shaving, cleaning, and moisturizing for an hour and that's if you don't use makeup plus an occasional 4-8hrs sitting around with my head saran wrapped for hair treatment products to work you can spend 5mins starting a conversation :b
> 
> Actually I pursued my husband while he was still with his previous gf and kind of invited myself over to his place the first time. Also, I don't shave my legs all winter.


Homewrecker.:laugh:


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

TheWelshOne said:


> *Disclaimer: Not all men, just the ones in this thread, apparently.


(Slowly backs away from keyboard):tiptoe


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

AllTheSame said:


> Heh. You've got a point there. Not that I haven't realized before how much time and effort women have to put in to look pretty and get all dolled up...I have and I do realize. Ffs, I was married for 18 years. I remember just going out to dinner it took my ex hours to get ready. I never have had a problem with being the one that's expected to approach (traditionally). Just the way it is, that's how I've always thought about it. But when you put it like that then yeah, ffs, the least a guy can do is start up a conversation lol.


I doubt I'll ever understand this, unless I would usually think that she was ugly and she was trying to trick me I don't see why any woman would *have* to spend hours getting ready. She may choose to, which is fine, but she wouldn't *have* to.

Am I some kind of exception to the rule, do most men think women who aren't "dolled up" are ugly or something?

There is a middle ground between making no effort and spending hours getting ready after all.


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

LonelyLurker said:


> I can understand that, maybe you'd have better luck with the friends first approach. You'd probably have to be the one who makes the move if you made it to the friendship stage and he hadn't made one yet, but you've had practice.:smile2:
> 
> Well keep up the practicing, you never know, you might bump into someone who'd be willing to get a bongo (just the one, nothing crazy) and jam with you.:laugh:


Nah, I've tried that, too. People change once it becomes a relationship, in my experience.


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## AllTheSame (Mar 19, 2016)

LonelyLurker said:


> I doubt I'll ever understand this, unless I would usually think that she was ugly and she was trying to trick me I don't see why any woman would *have* to spend hours getting ready. She may choose to, which is fine, but she wouldn't *have* to.
> 
> Am I some kind of exception to the rule, do most men think women who aren't "dolled up" are ugly or something?
> 
> There is a middle ground between making no effort and spending hours getting ready after all.


You aren't supposed to understand it lol. My ex-wife spending hours in front of a mirror to make herself "perfect" for a date night with me, who she had been married to for years....that's not rational. She has serious issues with her self image. My ex wife spending hours doing her makeup, and hair, and calling herself ugly, sometimes while my daughter was in the same room....that's not rational. A whole lot of women do that actually, even in front of their own kids, it's been documented, there have been studies that focus on the effects that kind of negative self talk has on the daughters of the moms that do it.

Fwiw, my ex doesn't need makeup, and I'm not that biased lol. I cannot stand her. I don't like the fact that she's the custodial parent of my kids. I don't think she's mother material at all....she's proven that, my kids and my parents and even some of her friends will attest to that. But she is naturally beautiful, she doesn't need makeup imo. And...I've been at home before, before we were divorced, waiting for her to go out with her girl friends, and she took forever to get ready. It even used to drive her friends crazy. They've fought about it before lol.

So, yeah, sometimes it can be totally irrational.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Moxi said:


> Nah, I've tried that, too. People change once it becomes a relationship, in my experience.


You're trying to make me cry aren't you?


----------



## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

LonelyLurker said:


> You're trying to make me cry aren't you?


Don't need to, the reality is sad enough.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

AllTheSame said:


> You aren't supposed to understand it lol. My ex-wife spending hours in front of a mirror to make herself "perfect" for a date night with me, who she had been married to for years....that's not rational. She has serious issues with her self image. My ex wife spending hours doing her makeup, and hair, and calling herself ugly, sometimes while my daughter was in the same room....that's not rational. A whole lot of women do that actually, even in front of their own kids, it's been documented, there have been studies that focus on the effects that kind of negative self talk has on the daughters of the moms that do it.
> 
> Fwiw, my ex doesn't need makeup, and I'm not that biased lol. I cannot stand her. I don't like the fact that she's the custodial parent of my kids. I don't think she's mother material at all....she's proven that, my kids and my parents and even some of her friends will attest to that. But she is naturally beautiful, she doesn't need makeup imo. And...I've been at home before, before we were divorced, waiting for her to go out with her girl friends, and she took forever to get ready. It even used to drive her friends crazy. They've fought about it before lol.
> 
> So, yeah, sometimes it can be totally irrational.


At least I'm not alone in the confusion.:laugh:

Hopefully your kids can resist the negativity and you can do your part to offer counter balance.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Moxi said:


> Don't need to, the reality is sad enough.


Nope, I still think there's someone out there you could make annoying music with.:grin2:


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> do most men think women who aren't "dolled up" are ugly or something?


Did you miss the 'take her swimming on the first date' thing? Here's one webpage:

http://www.funnycaptions.com/img/13...u-should-take-her-swimming-on-the-first-date/


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## Neal (Jan 14, 2012)

TheWelshOne said:


> LonelyLurker said:
> 
> 
> > do most men think women who aren't "dolled up" are ugly or something?
> ...


 Makeup isn't helping that one bit lol.


----------



## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

TheWelshOne said:


> Did you miss the 'take her swimming on the first date' thing? Here's one webpage:
> 
> http://www.funnycaptions.com/img/13...u-should-take-her-swimming-on-the-first-date/


I shouldn't have clicked that...  Another little part of my heart just turned bitter.

From that link:



> Women get up every day, and one of the first things they do before they even leave the house is put on a face that lies to the world. The majority of women even refuse to be seen in public without their liars face on. And they claim men are deceptive?
> 
> These girls are probably not satisfied with the way they look without makeup and so they use makeup to artificially portray a person more people would find attractive.
> 
> ...


Yep...I'm never going to wear makeup, ever. It's better to be ugly and "honest." Heaven forbid I should be shamed as some deceptive liar when I'm just trying to make myself _somewhat_ presentable for _some_ guys. (Because that's the only reason women doll themselves up, is to deceive guys, right? Right.)

...I get the feeling the guys who (quite unfunnily) captioned those pictures have no clue just how many women are being "deceptive"..._natural beauty_, right? They just woke up looking that way...right? Uh-huh, sure. :roll


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

TheWelshOne said:


> Did you miss the 'take her swimming on the first date' thing? Here's one webpage:
> 
> http://www.funnycaptions.com/img/13...u-should-take-her-swimming-on-the-first-date/


"I think that this level of makeup should not be allowed, because it dramatically deceives"
"are men getting conned?"

Lawl. No more than women are when guys put on their game face and pretend to be nice.

I feel sorry for women who end up with men who think this way. Rather be single.


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## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

kageri said:


> Hey, if I sit around shaving, cleaning, and moisturizing for an hour and that's if you don't use makeup plus an occasional 4-8hrs sitting around with my head saran wrapped for hair treatment products to work you can spend 5mins starting a conversation :b
> 
> Actually I pursued my husband while he was still with his previous gf and kind of invited myself over to his place the first time. Also, I don't shave my legs all winter.


I would argue that starting a conversation with a complete stranger with the intention of creating romantic interest is wayyyy harder than shaving, cleaning etc. But it's not like guys are just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses. They're out there working on their bodies (gyms are filled with men), trying better clothes, improving their social skills etc.

Working on yourself to make yourself more attractive to the opposite sex isn't something done exclusively by women.


----------



## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

tehuti88 said:


> Yep...I'm never going to wear makeup, ever. It's better to be ugly and "honest." Heaven forbid I should be shamed as some deceptive liar when I'm just trying to make myself _somewhat_ presentable for _some_ guys. (Because that's the only reason women doll themselves up, is to deceive guys, right? Right.)
> 
> ...I get the feeling the guys who (quite unfunnily) captioned those pictures have no clue just how many women are being "deceptive"..._natural beauty_, right? They just woke up looking that way...right? Uh-huh, sure. :roll


:squeeze Ditto.



truant said:


> No more than women are when guys put on their game face and pretend to be nice.


C'mon, that's totally different. Men *have* to pretend to be nice, otherwise they won't get dates. They're not deceiving women, they're just trying their hardest to get laid. Whereas women wearing makeup, that's to snag a hotter boyfriend than they deserve, and that's unacceptable.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Did you see what happened when there was that "no selfie" makeup thing on Facebook:

1. Women were congratulated, called "brave" for posting pictures of themselves up. This is the world we live in, a world where if a women doesn't wear makeup they get people coming up to them and asking them if they are ill or something.

2. Some women just blatantly lied and put minimal makeup on. To boost their appearance above other women

Makeup is part of society, it isn't _individual_ women being evil and deceiving men on purpose, its systemic, and its there because of decades of damn hard work manipulating society by the beauty industry. You wanna blame anyone, blame them. Of course a woman is going to wear makeup, when she does, people react better to her. Why would she do anything else?

Again, we have another totally stupid "not going to happen" thing, "make it illegal that women can't improve their appearance by x% with makeup". How are you going to enact this law exactly?

Make it legal that red pill guys have to wear a badge (not that they need one lol). Make it illegal for guys to go to the gym, make it illegal that men who wear clothes to improve their appearance, make it illegal men grow stubble and beards, make it illegal men get haircuts.

You guys tire the **** out of me.


----------



## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

gunner21 said:


> I would argue that starting a conversation with a complete stranger with the intention of creating romantic interest is wayyyy harder than shaving, cleaning etc. But it's not like guys are just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses. They're out there working on their bodies (gyms are filled with men), trying better clothes, improving their social skills etc.
> 
> Working on yourself to make yourself more attractive to the opposite sex isn't something done exclusively by women.


You're right. Men and women both make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex.

Question is, how many women would baulk if they saw their guy looking a bit bloated, in sweats, being a slob on a Sunday morning?

And how many men would baulk at a makeup-free face, an unshaven leg/pit/p***y/a**hole, cellulite, stretchmarks, sagging boobs?

We've all been conditioned to believe that women need improvement. They need bleaching and shaving and makeup before they can even be accepted into society. Ask yourself how many job interviews or dates you'd be laughed out of if you showed up in your natural (clean but without products on it) face.

And maybe before you answer, watch this:


----------



## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

TheWelshOne said:


> You're right. Men and women both make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex.
> 
> Question is, how many women would baulk if they saw their guy looking a bit bloated, in sweats, being a slob on a Sunday morning?


As women say that they aren't interested in looks as much as men are that wouldn't be a fair comparison. The equivalent would be how many women would baulk if they found out their guy lied about having a job and borrowed the car and clothes he used to impress them (if we're using the stereotype for women also).



TheWelshOne said:


> And how many men would baulk at a makeup-free face, an unshaven leg/pit/p***y/a**hole, cellulite, stretchmarks, sagging boobs?


Young guys maybe, obviously the extent of any of those things would come into play but as long as they weren't extreme (that's subjective of course), if he's aware of the reality of aging and the effect it has on the human body he shouldn't be too surprised.



TheWelshOne said:


> We've all been conditioned to believe that women need improvement. They need bleaching and shaving and makeup before they can even be accepted into society. Ask yourself how many job interviews or dates you'd be laughed out of if you showed up in your natural (clean but without products on it) face.


Maybe this is just another way that I seem to be an outsider but this conditioning doesn't seem to have had an effect on me. I genuinely don't believe that women are defective and need to be fixed before they can be considered as acceptable. That doesn't mean I think that everyone is beautiful either (I'm allowed to have preferences), but in order to find a woman truly physically attractive I would still need to view her that way in her natural state. Otherwise I'm just attracted to her facade and that won't last very long. There's a difference between putting on a little makeup and using so much that you become unrecognisable. One is like a stereotypical middle aged man putting on his best clothes and getting a haircut before taking a photo for his dating profile and the other is like him using a photo from 15 years ago, before he let himself go.



TheWelshOne said:


> And maybe before you answer, watch this:


That video is sad but those comments don't reflect how most people would respond IRL (you really need to stop basing your opinions of the wider world on internet trolls), but if the acne was really going to be a turn off for me, it's still going to be a turn off when I finally see it. Plus I have to admit, when I see heavy makeup I tend to assume that she's hiding something and that what I'm actually seeing is not an accurate representation of her looks. It's like seeing a photo that is obviously photoshopped, I assume that's not what they really look like.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> Did you see what happened when there was that "no selfie" makeup thing on Facebook:
> 
> 1. Women were congratulated, called "brave" for posting pictures of themselves up. This is the world we live in, a world where if a women doesn't wear makeup they get people coming up to them and asking them if they are ill or something.
> 
> ...


These kind of posts always amuse me now because all (or most,) of my preferences are on the wrong sex so I have to like, switch viewpoint to what everyone else thinks haha. It's gotten more extreme over time, so it actually takes more effort now + I don't socialise with people now to know what they find attractive anymore (in general.)

This isn't the best example, just a general thing I've noticed. I just sit reading threads 'doesn't apply to me, doesn't apply to me, doesn't apply to me, doesn't apply to me'

edit: I'm fairly sure this post won't make much sense actually I'm pretty tired.


----------



## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

komorikun said:


> Just about the only times I've had men hit on me was at bars and in online dating. Never happened at school, work, the grocery store, etc. Maybe a handful of times when I joined this one group.
> 
> So it really doesn't happen much at all if you are only mediocre looking and don't go out actively searching for men.


Damn, my favorite place to pick up women is in the cereal aisle.


----------



## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> These kind of posts always amuse me now because all (or most,) of my preferences are on the wrong sex so I have to like, switch viewpoint to what everyone else thinks haha. It's gotten more extreme over time, so it actually takes more effort now + I don't socialise with people now to know what they find attractive anymore (in general.)
> 
> This isn't the best example, just a general thing I've noticed. I just sit reading threads 'doesn't apply to me, doesn't apply to me, doesn't apply to me, doesn't apply to me'
> 
> edit: I'm fairly sure this post won't make much sense actually I'm pretty tired.


Heh, ****ing exhausted myself tbh. Exposure group, wandering around Canterbury not doing anyting but gettling slightly miserable . My post there should basically be totally ignored I think 

* edit, also this standing desk seems to be working on my neck, but its also exhausting lol


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Karsten said:


> Damn, my favorite place to pick up women is in the cereal aisle.


For some reason I imagined it would be the produce section.


----------



## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> As women say that they aren't interested in looks as much as men are that wouldn't be a fair comparison. The equivalent would be how many women would baulk if they found out their guy lied about having a job and borrowed the car and clothes he used to impress them (if we're using the stereotype for women also).


Really? You're equating lying about fundamental facets of someone's life to primping and preening? Lying about having a job is not the same as using hairdye.



> Young guys maybe, obviously the extent of any of those things would come into play but as long as they weren't extreme (that's subjective of course), if he's aware of the reality of aging and the effect it has on the human body he shouldn't be too surprised.


'The reality of aging'. I'm assuming that's about the sagging breasts. That happens to women of all ages, fwiw. Even beautiful ones - go check out Nina Mohan on Buzzfeed. Gorgeous, young, with naturally large sagging breasts. If she wears a push up bra, that's false advertising just like makeup. A guy is gonna be pissed when that bra comes off.

Cellulite happens to the majority of women. Pubic hair is a sign of maturity and it doesn't all collect neatly in the front. What you say is 'extreme' is actually *natural*. How many guys have to shave and bleach their taint before getting laid? And how many men feel pressured into plastic surgery to keep themselves looking young?



> Maybe this is just another way that I seem to be an outsider but this conditioning doesn't seem to have had an effect on me. I genuinely don't believe that women are defective and need to be fixed before they can be considered as acceptable. That doesn't mean I think that everyone is beautiful either (I'm allowed to have preferences), but in order to find a woman truly physically attractive I would still need to view her that way in her natural state. Otherwise I'm just attracted to her facade and that won't last very long. There's a difference between putting on a little makeup and using so much that you become unrecognisable. One is like a stereotypical middle aged man putting on his best clothes and getting a haircut before taking a photo for his dating profile and the other is like him using a photo from 15 years ago, before he let himself go.


Where did you grow up? I'd like to visit this magical place that left you so totally unaware of society's views on women.

Look, I don't like a lot of makeup either. I don't wear any, and I wouldn't really want a girlfriend who used a lot of it. But very few women are 'universally acceptable' without makeup on. Even celebrities.

http://uk.complex.com/pop-culture/2...-hot-celebrities-without-makeup-or-photoshop/

'Shocking'. How many of those makeup-free women would you walk past on the street without looking twice at them?

And I disagree (I'm sure you're not surprised) about the little makeup/unrecognisable makeup thing. It's more like that guy taking a random good photo of himself, or taking the photo where he's looking his best. In both the unrecognisable and the best clothes photo, the person being attracted to that has no idea what they're getting themselves into. With the light makeup and the good photo, it's simply the most pleasant view of the person.



> That video is sad but those comments don't reflect how most people would respond IRL (you really need to stop basing your opinions of the wider world on internet trolls), but if the acne was really going to be a turn off for me, it's still going to be a turn off when I finally see it. Plus I have to admit, when I see heavy makeup I tend to assume that she's hiding something and that what I'm actually seeing is not an accurate representation of her looks. It's like seeing a photo that is obviously photoshopped, I assume that's not what they really look like.


You have a very nice view of people IRL. I don't base my opinions on the word of internet trolls. I base it on real stories from real people and real things that have happened to me and people I know. But thank you for assuming I'm an idiot.

And it's not just about the acne. Every woman gets that reaction, whether she has acne or not. Skin has blemishes, it has pimples and discolouration. Eyebrow hairs are unruly. Eyelashes vary in length and colour. These things are considered natural for men. But they're signs of a woman not taking care of herself.

When a woman can hear 'OMG you look so pretty' when she has makeup on, but never when she doesn't use it (hint: this has been said to me), when every woman I know IRL cannot leave the house without makeup on for fear of feeling unprofessional/unattractive/underdressed, there is a problem larger than internet trolls.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> Heh, ****ing exhausted myself tbh. Exposure group, wandering around Canterbury not doing anyting but gettling slightly miserable . My post there should basically be totally ignored I think
> 
> * edit, also this standing desk seems to be working on my neck, but its also exhausting lol


That sucks. You should eat pancakes (because of the day.)

I find these threads very difficult because people get so emotionally invested and I usually can't understand from my own experience their experiences. For example in this thread the makeup thing, doesn't apply to me. But I assume many women must get a lot of ****. It makes me feel guilty really since I do find it attractive (obviously more on men though, not that that makes it better.)


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## JaegerLover217 (Feb 23, 2016)

ya, whenever i hear responses such as "thats the way it is, the way of the world", or "because he's the hunter", "because it goes back to the time men courted women, men court women", it makes me feel like breaking something or hitting someone to release my anger, rage, stress, over the unfairness, injustice that guys always have to be the initiators in terms of starting the relationship.

This passage from this book says it all:

"Normally, you are the one who has to begin the initial conversation; you are the one who starts touching her, who takes her number, who calls her up, who tells her where to meet you for a date, who initiates a hug the next time you see her, who takes her to a café, who touches her hand across the table, who goes in for the first kiss, who leads her home, who undresses her, and so on through the many small steps all the way into bed. You are responsible for making things happen since you are the male, so advancing is all on your shoulders. Whenever you feel you are not getting anywhere with a woman, or that things are moving slowly, it is because you are not advancing. If you ever catch yourself thinking something such as, "I am not getting anywhere with this girl," or "I do not know if she likes me," then it is time for you to make a move. She will not do it, not even if she wants you, and if she does make a move then she is seducing you, not the other way around. If you are thinking, "Well, but if she wants me, why doesn't she make a move?" it means you do not understand women very well, what they want, or that you as a male are expected to act like a male - and that she is thinking the exact same thing. All over the world, females grow more frustrated by the day because males they know are interested in them are afraid or do not know how to show it by making a move. Many males lose women because they fail to make a move when they have the chance. When you do have the chance but do not take it, the woman is thinking "Why isn't he doing anything?" because her mindset does not include the option of doing something herself. She will start thinking that you do not like her, or she will park you in her let's-just-be-friends spot and look for a real man." W. Anton


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

komorikun said:


> For some reason I imagined it would be the produce section.


Produce section is too cliche, c'mon now. Plus, that's where all the muscly dads hangout - I can't compete with them.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

JaegerLover217 said:


> ya


I always get this strong feeling you haven't bothered reading through the threads you're replying to.

Maybe you should try it sometime.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Sep 5, 2015)

How is this thread still not locked... This thread is the definition of online gender war.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

TheWelshOne said:


> Really? You're equating lying about fundamental facets of someone's life to primping and preening? Lying about having a job is not the same as using hairdye.


Well if what's being said here is true, that men only care about looks, then misleading them about what you look like would be the same as misleading women about what they care about in this case having money (I hope that's as untrue as men only caring about looks BTW).



TheWelshOne said:


> 'The reality of aging'. I'm assuming that's about the sagging breasts. That happens to women of all ages, fwiw. Even beautiful ones - go check out Nina Mohan on Buzzfeed. Gorgeous, young, with naturally large sagging breasts. If she wears a push up bra, that's false advertising just like makeup. A guy is gonna be pissed when that bra comes off.
> 
> Cellulite happens to the majority of women. Pubic hair is a sign of maturity and it doesn't all collect neatly in the front. What you say is 'extreme' is actually *natural*. How many guys have to shave and bleach their taint before getting laid? And how many men feel pressured into plastic surgery to keep themselves looking young?


How would you know what I consider "extreme" you haven't asked me. Jumping to conclusions isn't going to get us anywhere.

For your information I don't have issues with sagging breasts (I prefer them to obviously fake ones), cellulite or pubic hair but I could easily think of extremes of all of those things that would be a turn off.

Do you really think that most men would refuse to have sex with a woman because they didn't shave and bleach their taint?:laugh:



TheWelshOne said:


> Where did you grow up? I'd like to visit this magical place that left you so totally unaware of society's views on women.


I grew up in the county of Gentlemanshire and I didn't say I was unaware of the beauty standards pushed by some in society, I said that I didn't buy into it. Some of my preferences match some don't, I don't rely on other people to tell me what I'm supposed to find attractive, I have something else that does that.



TheWelshOne said:


> Look, I don't like a lot of makeup either. I don't wear any, and I wouldn't really want a girlfriend who used a lot of it. But very few women are 'universally acceptable' without makeup on. Even celebrities.
> 
> http://uk.complex.com/pop-culture/2...-hot-celebrities-without-makeup-or-photoshop/
> 
> 'Shocking'. How many of those makeup-free women would you walk past on the street without looking twice at them?


Other than the fact that most of the non-makeup pictures were unflattering and the ones with makeup were posed most of them looked fine to me. And of the ones that didn't I didn't find most of them particularly attractive with the makeup either. I'm not saying that makeup doesn't make most women look better, just that it isn't necessary in order to be acceptable.



TheWelshOne said:


> And I disagree (I'm sure you're not surprised) about the little makeup/unrecognisable makeup thing. It's more like that guy taking a random good photo of himself, or taking the photo where he's looking his best. In both the unrecognisable and the best clothes photo, the person being attracted to that has no idea what they're getting themselves into. With the light makeup and the good photo, it's simply the most pleasant view of the person.


Well I disagree with your disagreement, so there.

Oh, so now we're talking about _light_ makeup, I see the goal posts are moving. An amount of makeup that makes you look like another person is definitely not _light_.



TheWelshOne said:


> You have a very nice view of people IRL. I don't base my opinions on the word of internet trolls. I base it on real stories from real people and real things that have happened to me and people I know. But thank you for assuming I'm an idiot.


There we go jumping to conclusions again, who said I thought you were an idiot?

Most people don't go around spewing hatred at people that aren't even interacting with them IRL. If they think someone is ugly, it will either stay as a thought or they will talk to others about it behind their back.

Just because ar**holes exist doesn't mean that everyone is an ar**hole.



TheWelshOne said:


> And it's not just about the acne. Every woman gets that reaction, whether she has acne or not. Skin has blemishes, it has pimples and discolouration. Eyebrow hairs are unruly. Eyelashes vary in length and colour. These things are considered natural for men. But they're signs of a woman not taking care of herself.


I don't feel that way, I can't speak for anyone else but I highly doubt I'm alone.



TheWelshOne said:


> When a woman can hear 'OMG you look so pretty' when she has makeup on, but never when she doesn't use it (hint: this has been said to me), when every woman I know IRL cannot leave the house without makeup on for fear of feeling unprofessional/unattractive/underdressed, there is a problem larger than internet trolls.


I agree (and you're not going to like this), the problem is low self esteem. I only get positive comments when I've made an effort too, doesn't mean I'm afraid to leave the house without making one though. There are women who aren't like the women you know, they don't appear to be getting rotten fruit thrown at them AFAIK. That's not to say that there aren't people who might try to shame you but it's up to you whether you let people like that dictate your behaviour.


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## JaegerLover217 (Feb 23, 2016)

ya, i hate how guys have to get labeled a coward or a *****, or wimp for being passive and not wanting to go about this gender role, the guys who make those comments i just want to make them squeal like a puppy as i break their ****in' neck, my response to my strong hatred towards gender roles, how life, society, expects guys to be the confident assertive ones.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Sep 5, 2015)

JaegerLover217 said:


> the guys who make those comments i just want to make them squeal like a puppy as i break their ****in' neck,.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

JaegerLover217 said:


> ya





tehuti88 said:


> I always get this strong feeling you haven't bothered reading through the threads you're replying to.
> 
> Maybe you should try it sometime.





JaegerLover217 said:


> ya


Okay, now I _know_ you don't bother reading through the threads you're replying to.


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## JaegerLover217 (Feb 23, 2016)

ya, i remember one guy responded to someone about him being upset over the gender role that guys have to be the initiators, he said: "It's not fair that I have to take initiative and do the CHOOSING, it's not fair that they can stay passive and do the WAITING. I'd much rather wait around for someone to choose me than go out and take it myself"

It's not a negative thing dude, no matter how you spin it. Only thing that makes it negative is an undertone of boyish laziness coming from your end. Not saying you're not putting the work in, sounds like you are (kudos for that), but you should be THANKFUL that you take the active role. Because waiting around to be chosen is what a ****ing ***** does (different for a woman though, it's an expression of her nature. It's completely natural for a woman to be chosen).

It's just how **** is and was designed to be. And thank **** for that- because the seeker is the one who grows stronger just by doing what his nature tells him to do.

Keep doing what you're doing man. Don't be resentful of your role, your role is what gives you the power of choice. You choose the mother of your children"

that post made me feel like killing him, made me feel like killing him like Alex Murphy from Robocop, but of course i won't do it, because i'm aware of the legal consequences, but still, guys are who struggling, thats not the answer that you want to hear.


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## TediousMind (Apr 4, 2012)

It greatly depends on the type of girls you're trying to meet. Some of them may be too shy to approach or make a move. Some of them may want to do things in the traditional way where the guy does typically approach them first before they engage. There are a couple women I know IRL that are more forward and blunt in those situations. Sounds like maybe you haven't found the right girl for you yet. That stuff takes time and experiences. That's all there is to it.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> How would you know what I consider "extreme" you haven't asked me. Jumping to conclusions isn't going to get us anywhere.
> 
> For your information I don't have issues with sagging breasts (I prefer them to obviously fake ones), cellulite or pubic hair but I could easily think of extremes of all of those things that would be a turn off.


First, I'd like to point out that the whole comparison of women's looks to men's looks thing was in reference to gunner's post where he specifically named things men do to look attractive to women.

The issue is this:

What *most men* consider 'extreme' is actually natural. What *most men* consider 'doable' is actually a lot of effort.

And it's not like I can ask what you consider extreme, this isn't the 18+ and I can't post photos of hairy *** women and ask what you think.



> Do you really think that most men would refuse to have sex with a woman because they didn't shave and bleach their taint?:laugh:


Do you really think most women shave and bleach their taint for *themselves?*:laugh:



> I'm not saying that makeup doesn't make most women look better, just that it isn't necessary in order to be acceptable.


And I'm saying that you're in a minority in believing that. There are *actual* women on this forum who have noted the amount of work they put into their appearance. There have even been threads about how all women have to do is put makeup on and they'll get a guy.



> Oh, so now we're talking about _light_ makeup, I see the goal posts are moving. An amount of makeup that makes you look like another person is definitely not _light_.





LonelyLurker said:


> There's a difference between putting on a little makeup and using so much that you become unrecognisable. One is like a stereotypical middle aged man putting on his best clothes and getting a haircut before taking a photo for his dating profile and the other is like him using a photo from 15 years ago, before he let himself go.


You said:

Light makeup = best clothes
Unrecognisable = 15 year old photo

Therefore, I said:

Light makeup = good photo
Unrecognisable = best clothes

Goal posts are still where you set them.



> There we go jumping to conclusions again, who said I thought you were an idiot?
> 
> Most people don't go around spewing hatred at people that aren't even interacting with them IRL. If they think someone is ugly, it will either stay as a thought or they will talk to others about it behind their back.
> 
> Just because ar**holes exist doesn't mean that everyone is an ar**hole.


Oh I'm sorry, suggesting I base all my opinions on the words of internet trolls wasn't a dig at my intelligence?

And I think you're missing my point. Your original question was 'Do men think women without makeup are ugly?' I've given you proof that actually, yes, they do. It doesn't matter if they act on it or not, that woman is ugly to them because she's not wearing makeup.



> I agree (and you're not going to like this), the problem is low self esteem. I only get positive comments when I've made an effort too, doesn't mean I'm afraid to leave the house without making one though. There are women who aren't like the women you know, they don't appear to be getting rotten fruit thrown at them AFAIK. That's not to say that there aren't people who might try to shame you but it's up to you whether you let people like that dictate your behaviour.


There's that magical Gentlemanshire thinking again. Would you tell a black woman who feels she can't leave her house with her natural hair that she simply has low self-esteem? I would hope you'd realise the (absolutely stupid and very controversial) overwhelming opinion that natural hair is 'unprofessional'.

I go out without makeup on and no, I don't get rotten fruit thrown at me. But this is *learned* behaviour. From the time that women are teenagers - even younger sometimes - they equate makeup with beauty. They learn that their natural face is supposed to be hidden. That men don't want to see that side of them.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> Well if what's being said here is true, that men only care about looks, then misleading them about what you look like would be the same as misleading women about what they care about in this case having money (I hope that's as untrue as men only caring about looks BTW).


Not even remotely comparable. A woman can recreate her appearance any time she wants to with a bit of effort. A more accurate comparison would be a guy who says he has a lot of money, but who has to borrow all that money from his parents, who are always willing to provide it. So maybe he has to make a phone call and wait for his bank account to be topped up before they can go and do anything fun. He's not all he pretended to be, but he's not far off. And that would be an extreme case of heavy makeup. You can hardly consider an expectation (wearing light makeup) any form of deception. Might as well say you're 'lying' if you put on pants.

And I've never cared at all about either money or status. But I'm aware that my opinion is entirely irrelevant.


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## Neal (Jan 14, 2012)

tehuti88 said:


> I shouldn't have clicked that...  Another little part of my heart just turned bitter


I probably should have kept my opinions to myself. For what its worth guys can have image issues too. I think for the most part the majority of people in this forum feel unfairly judged by the opposite gender. Or at least the vocal ones.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> That sucks. You should eat pancakes (because of the day.)


Oh, its a pancake day, I have 150ml of whiskey I am about to crack into, that seems close enough. What biscuits do you have for tonight?



> I find these threads very difficult because people get so emotionally invested and I usually can't understand from my own experience their experiences. For example in this thread the makeup thing, doesn't apply to me. But I assume many women must get a lot of ****. It makes me feel guilty really since I do find it attractive (obviously more on men though, not that that makes it better.)


I only really react to guys who think that on an individual level women are being all evil and devious by vastly improving their looks with makeup. When (perverse) **** like "post your head in its natural form" on FB generates lots of attention and women being told they are "brave". i.e. the world is ****ing insane w.r.t. makeup, its hardly individual women being evil. (it's more some 50 year old exec telling his secretary she looks ill because she skipped the makeup).

Ugh.

It's all just Ugh.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

@splendidbob lol I don't eat biscuits every night (just most nights)



tehuti88 said:


> Okay, now I _know_ you don't bother reading through the threads you're replying to.


I think some people are paid to bump threads. You know that poster a while back who would do nothing but post various threads and never post in other threads or even later in his own? Well he was doing the same thing on several other forums as well under the same username.

There's another poster here now who bumps threads related to hair and fashion and always says the same thing like 'can't help but bump this' and that's pretty much all I've seen them do here (pretty sure they're just a spammer actually because I had a look and most of those posts link to some other site.)

It's painfully obvious at this point. I'm not sure if some of them are working for some company because I know you used to be able to get money just for posting on forums (like tiny amounts,) or if maybe some of them have been employed by the admins of this forum in a desperate attempt to keep this place active.

There's another guy who often makes random threads in frustration (that are often more general discussion topics,) and doesn't seem to speak English well or something? His posts often don't make much sense, but I don't think he's being paid I dunno about him.

Anyway this guy that you're quoting just comes back and bumps slightly old threads on the same topic continuously to rant and it seems familiar to that style. It's like they're not even really here/engaging.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

Neal said:


> I probably should have kept my opinions to myself. For what its worth guys can have image issues too. I think for the most part the majority of people in this forum feel unfairly judged by the opposite gender. Or at least the vocal ones.


Don't worry, you didn't offend me. And I realize very many users here of all genders are terribly insecure about their looks. I empathize with the ones who can empathize with women like me in return because I know how sucky it feels to never seem good enough. :/



Persephone The Dread said:


> Anyway this guy that you're quoting just comes back and bumps slightly old threads on the same topic continuously to rant and it seems familiar to that style. *It's like they're not even really here/engaging.*


:idea I noticed that and had some similar suspicions but just kept wondering if it was a bot. :lol Interesting info, I hadn't heard of such a thing before. I should probably stop responding to him then if I'm basically talking to myself.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

TheWelshOne said:


> First, I'd like to point out that the whole comparison of women's looks to men's looks thing was in reference to gunner's post where he specifically named things men do to look attractive to women.


Fair enough.



TheWelshOne said:


> The issue is this:
> 
> What *most men* consider 'extreme' is actually natural. What *most men* consider 'doable' is actually a lot of effort.


How do you know?



TheWelshOne said:


> And it's not like I can ask what you consider extreme, this isn't the 18+ and I can't post photos of hairy *** women and ask what you think.


I could come up with descriptions that weren't vulgar, but if you wanted to play it safe you could PM me and then I'd let loose.:smile2:



TheWelshOne said:


> Do you really think most women shave and bleach their taint for *themselves?*:laugh:


Do you think that most women shave and bleach their taints?:laugh: (maybe they do, I hope that isn't the case)

To answer your question, no, I don't think the women that do do this are doing it for themselves.



TheWelshOne said:


> And I'm saying that you're in a minority in believing that. There are *actual* women on this forum who have noted the amount of work they put into their appearance. There have even been threads about how all women have to do is put makeup on and they'll get a guy.


You might be right, I hope you're not.



TheWelshOne said:


> You said:
> 
> Light makeup = best clothes
> Unrecognisable = 15 year old photo
> ...


Unless your best clothes are an invisibility cloak, a corset or something like that, they won't make you unrecognisable.



TheWelshOne said:


> Oh I'm sorry, suggesting I base all my opinions on the words of internet trolls wasn't a dig at my intelligence?


No, it was highlighting something I think you do that you should stop doing. Intelligent people aren't perfect either, they can still make mistakes.



TheWelshOne said:


> And I think you're missing my point. Your original question was 'Do men think women without makeup are ugly?' I've given you proof that actually, yes, they do. It doesn't matter if they act on it or not, that woman is ugly to them because she's not wearing makeup.


I think you're generalising and reaching an incorrect conclusion. I know you disagree with that, I hope you eventually change your mind but it's OK either way.



TheWelshOne said:


> There's that magical Gentlemanshire thinking again. Would you tell a black woman who feels she can't leave her house with her natural hair that she simply has low self-esteem? I would hope you'd realise the (absolutely stupid and very controversial) overwhelming opinion that natural hair is 'unprofessional'.


As a black man who *hates* that so many black women feel the need to wear weaves, I'd definitely be willing to have the conversation. I feel the same way about obvious weaves as I do about heavy makeup.



TheWelshOne said:


> I go out without makeup on and no, I don't get rotten fruit thrown at me. But this is *learned* behaviour. From the time that women are teenagers - even younger sometimes - they equate makeup with beauty. They learn that their natural face is supposed to be hidden. That men don't want to see that side of them.


Would you propose that we continue this indoctrination or challenge it like I'm doing?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Round 2, ding ding.:smile2:



truant said:


> Not even remotely comparable. A woman can recreate her appearance any time she wants to with a bit of effort. A more accurate comparison would be a guy who says he has a lot of money, but who has to borrow all that money from his parents, who are always willing to provide it. So maybe he has to make a phone call and wait for his bank account to be topped up before they can go and do anything fun. He's not all he pretended to be, but he's not far off. And that would be an extreme case of heavy makeup. You can hardly consider an expectation (wearing light makeup) any form of deception. Might as well say you're 'lying' if you put on pants.
> 
> And I've never cared at all about either money or status. But I'm aware that my opinion is entirely irrelevant.


He can lie about his circumstances at any moment also, he just has to avoid ever having to provide proof (much like the woman can avoid ever showing him what she looks like without her makeup), there *are* people that do this.

Light makeup is absolutely fine, I don't even consider that part of this conversation. But if you plaster it on you're purposefully trying to get a result that is "far off" what actually lies beneath.

If those pants had a fake penis in them which led to disappointment once they were removed then yes, that would be lying too.:laugh:

Your opinion is as relevant as anyone else's.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Karsten said:


> Produce section is too cliche, c'mon now. Plus, that's where all the muscly dads hangout - I can't compete with them.


The most action I ever got in the supermarket was in the pet food aisle, back when I had a cat. Once I got some old lady rattling on about her deceased cats that lived to nearly 20. Another time an odd man, fat with thick glasses and perhaps autistic, asked me what I was buying and then started looking through his huge collection of coupons. He gave me a coupon for kitty litter and then was on his way.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Persephone The Dread said:


> @splendidbob lol I don't eat biscuits every night (just most nights)
> 
> I think some people are paid to bump threads. You know that poster a while back who would do nothing but post various threads and never post in other threads or even later in his own? Well he was doing the same thing on several other forums as well under the same username.
> 
> ...


I've been reporting those spammers everyday. The ones that put a link in most of their posts. They especially like to post in the Health subforum.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

komorikun said:


> The most action I ever got in the supermarket was in the pet food aisle, back when I had a cat. Once I got some old lady rattling on about her deceased cats that lived to nearly 20. Another time an odd man, fat with thick glasses and perhaps autistic, asked me what I was buying and then started looking through his huge collection of coupons. He gave me a coupon for kitty litter and then was on his way.


That was nice of him.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

komorikun said:


> The most action I ever got in the supermarket was in the pet food aisle, back when I had a cat. Once I got some old lady rattling on about her deceased cats that lived to nearly 20. Another time an odd man, fat with thick glasses and perhaps autistic, asked me what I was buying and then started looking through his huge collection of coupons. He gave me a coupon for kitty litter and then was on his way.


What kind of vibes did the old lady give? Was she friendly?


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Karsten said:


> What kind of vibes did the old lady give? Was she friendly?


Yeah, she was friendly. Maybe a little lonely but normal mentally. The guy I think had something wrong with him.


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## Strago (Jan 12, 2017)

LonelyLurker said:


> Maybe this is just another way that I seem to be an outsider but this conditioning doesn't seem to have had an effect on me. I genuinely don't believe that women are defective and need to be fixed before they can be considered as acceptable. That doesn't mean I think that everyone is beautiful either (I'm allowed to have preferences), but in order to find a woman truly physically attractive I would still need to view her that way in her natural state. Otherwise I'm just attracted to her facade and that won't last very long.


I just wanted to second this to show that I too feel like some kind of outsider in that I've never believed in this social conditioning that women must wear makeup to be acceptable when going out. I'm not saying the social pressure doesn't exist, it clearly does, or else so many women wouldn't be conforming to it. Just that I don't feel that women are unacceptable without makeup, and never did feel that way. I wonder what percentage of men also feel this way, but never say anything about it, so are assumed to be the opposite.

The comments the woman in that video received for posting pictures of herself without makeup truly sadden me.  No one should be shamed like that for their natural appearance. Hopefully some day if enough people challenge this stigma it will lose it's strength and people will be able to wear as much or no makeup as they truly want to without judgement.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Strago said:


> I just wanted to second this to show that I too feel like some kind of outsider in that I've never believed in this social conditioning that women must wear makeup to be acceptable when going out. I'm not saying the social pressure doesn't exist, it clearly does, or else so many women wouldn't be conforming to it. Just that I don't feel that women are unacceptable without makeup, and never did feel that way. I wonder what percentage of men also feel this way, but never say anything about it, so are assumed to be the opposite.
> 
> The comments the woman in that video received for posting pictures of herself without makeup truly sadden me.  No one should be shamed like that for their natural appearance. Hopefully some day if enough people challenge this stigma it will lose it's strength and people will be able to wear as much or no makeup as they truly want to without judgement.


Well there we are, that's at least 2 exceptions to the "rule". I think there's far more men like us (in this context) than many others seem to think.

It reminds me of when there was all this fuss about men only wanting women who looked like runway models even though I have never in my life been around a group of men whose preference was "almost anorexic".

Apparently they know us better than we know ourselves.:laugh:


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## Strago (Jan 12, 2017)

LonelyLurker said:


> Well there we are, that's at least 2 exceptions to the "rule". I think there's far more men like us (in this context) than many others seem to think.
> 
> It reminds me of when there was all this fuss about men only wanting women who looked like runway models even though I have never in my life been around a group of men whose preference was "almost anorexic".
> 
> Apparently they know us better than we know ourselves.:laugh:


My opinions about many things are not representative of the average male though. Its one of the reasons along with SA that I often feel like some kind of alien.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Strago said:


> My opinions about many things are not representative of the average male though. Its one of the reasons along with SA that I often feel like some kind of alien.


I'm with you on that one, but I strongly suspect that the thought that women aren't unacceptable without makeup isn't actually a niche view.


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## JaegerLover217 (Feb 23, 2016)

"We are the children of men. We had a father who stood upon this earth… on a battlefield… with a sword in his hands… with the same champion blood coursing through our veins as his… and we’re afraid to talk to that girl over there?"

really hate that passage from the Alabaster Girl


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> It reminds me of when there was all this fuss about men only wanting women who looked like runway models even though I have never in my life been around a group of men whose preference was "almost anorexic".
> 
> Apparently they know us better than we know ourselves.:laugh:


I have. In fact my sister is *actually* anorexic. You wanna hear some of the stuff she's been told by men?

'Why are you eating that ice cream, don't you know how many calories are in that?'
'You don't need to put on weight, you're perfect as you are' (this was at a BMI of 15)
'I wouldn't date you if you were a size 16' (UK 16, US 12)

And this is my personal favourite, an absolute stranger at the next table, to her and three recovering friends:
'Oh you don't want to look at the dessert menu, girls. You don't want to get fat.'


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I had some jerk at a supermarket in Brazil, tell me that I would look so much prettier if I didn't slouch. I was in line, so I couldn't get away from him. I just ignored him and didn't reply.


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## Xenacat (Oct 20, 2015)

I Ike my make up. I have never gotten bad feedback from men on it. I don't feel pressured to wear it and sometimes I don't, I just enjoy it. In general I am llke that - I am a woman who can pull it off and I like fashionable clothing and hair and make up.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> He can lie about his circumstances at any moment also, he just has to avoid ever having to provide proof (much like the woman can avoid ever showing him what she looks like without her makeup), there *are* people that do this.


If the man is attracted to how a woman looks when she's all dolled up, she can recreate that effect for him any time if they're dating. It's not a 'lie', it's a performance. If a man lies about having a job he doesn't have, he's just lying. It's not like he really has that job while he's pretending to have that job. There's no way he can "produce the goods" (like money or status) any time he likes, because there are no goods to produce.

I think it's disingenuous to compare makeup to lying. They're not the same sort of thing. Everyone is aware of what makeup does and why people wear it. A man can easily avoid dating a woman who wears a lot of it. A woman can't avoid dating a man who lies to her. That's the whole point of lying. Women don't bother lying to men about having a great job or being an astronaut because men don't give a ****.

A closer analogy would be a man who pretends to be nice when he isn't. He can pretend to be nice any time he wants, if he wants to put in the effort. Being nice is a performance. Maybe we should tell men to stop pretending to be nice when they aren't? But they won't, just like women won't stop wearing makeup.



LonelyLurker said:


> Your opinion is as relevant as anyone else's.


Ime, how relevant a person's opinion is when it comes to sex and dating depends on how attractive you are. No one cares what I think because they have no interest in dating me. My opinion is therefore, objectively, irrelevant. It's only relevant when it affects outcomes.

That's why men obsess about the "outrageous standards" that attractive women have and call any woman who claims not to have similar standards a liar. They only care what attractive women think because they're only interested in dating attractive women. And the more attractive you are, the higher your standards are going to be, by definition. Men obsess about these "hoops" because they're not going after women who won't make them jump through any.



LonelyLurker said:


> Well there we are, that's at least 2 exceptions to the "rule". I think there's far more men like us (in this context) than many others seem to think.
> 
> It reminds me of when there was all this fuss about men only wanting women who looked like runway models even though I have never in my life been around a group of men whose preference was "almost anorexic".
> 
> Apparently they know us better than we know ourselves.:laugh:


As men seem to know women better than women know themselves. The "fact" that "women lie about everything" is so widely held that it's considered "common sense" by many men.


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## Astron92 (Nov 9, 2016)

All the time put into posting rebuttals in this thread about "what ifs" while other people are building relationships and improving irl. Maybe...this is doing more bad than good for enhancing actual social skills...

I guess the best solution is to worry about people individually instead, since it's exhausting trying to rationalize entire genders. I'm sleepy, and tired, and never really had these kinda thoughts since this forum. You get so wrapped in the "Frustration" that it's the only emotion you have on here. I feel so bipolar since I'm so much more "open" mentality when I'm off here.

Looking back at my post history makes me feel like I get possessed once I log on or something since it's not me. It's so dumb to get into gender charged arguments all the time, especially when the name of the site is Social Anxiety *Support* and I usually wind up doing anything but that. The whole "who has it worse" thing is even stupider than I thought when it just divides rather than unite people and just creates an endless pity party. What the heck is this type of behavior really gonna benefit me/us in the long run aside from making one bitter and judgmental? :stu


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

truant said:


> That's why men obsess about the "outrageous standards" that attractive women have and call any woman who claims not to have similar standards a liar. They only care what attractive women think because they're only interested in dating attractive women. And the more attractive you are, the higher your standards are going to be, by definition. Men obsess about these "hoops" because they're not going after women who won't make them jump through any.


Yep. :/



Astron92 said:


> All the time put into posting rebuttals in this thread about "what ifs" while other people are building relationships and improving irl. Maybe...this is doing more bad than good for enhancing actual social skills...
> 
> I guess the best solution is to worry about people individually instead, since it's exhausting trying to rationalize entire genders. I'm sleepy, and tired, and never really had these kinda thoughts since this forum. You get so wrapped in the "Frustration" that it's the only emotion you have on here. I feel so bipolar since I'm so much more "open" mentality when I'm off here.
> 
> Looking back at my post history makes me feel like I get possessed once I log on or something since it's not me. It's so dumb to get into gender charged arguments all the time, especially when the name of the site is Social Anxiety *Support* and I usually wind up doing anything but that. The whole "who has it worse" thing is even stupider than I thought when it just divides rather than unite people and just creates an endless pity party. What the heck is this type of behavior really gonna benefit me/us in the long run aside from making one bitter and judgmental? :stu


As weird as it sounds, this post gives me hope. I really hope this is something you can continue to think about in such terms, and I don't mean that condescendingly or anything.


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## Astron92 (Nov 9, 2016)

tehuti88 said:


> As weird as it sounds, this post gives me hope. I really hope this is something you can continue to think about in such terms, and I don't mean that condescendingly or anything.


I'll try my best to uphold this mindset. We're supposed to be helping each other, regardless of gender we are all dealing with Social Anxiety of various levels and that's supposed to be the common enemy we team up to face, not one another. :group


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Astron92 said:


> All the time put into posting rebuttals in this thread about "what ifs" while other people are building relationships and improving irl. Maybe...this is doing more bad than good for enhancing actual social skills...
> 
> I guess the best solution is to worry about people individually instead, since it's exhausting trying to rationalize entire genders. I'm sleepy, and tired, and never really had these kinda thoughts since this forum. You get so wrapped in the "Frustration" that it's the only emotion you have on here. I feel so bipolar since I'm so much more "open" mentality when I'm off here.
> 
> Looking back at my post history makes me feel like I get possessed once I log on or something since it's not me. It's so dumb to get into gender charged arguments all the time, especially when the name of the site is Social Anxiety *Support* and I usually wind up doing anything but that. The whole "who has it worse" thing is even stupider than I thought when it just divides rather than unite people and just creates an endless pity party. What the heck is this type of behavior really gonna benefit me/us in the long run aside from making one bitter and judgmental? :stu


I agree.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

komorikun said:


> I had some jerk at a supermarket in Brazil, tell me that I would look so much prettier if I didn't slouch. I was in line, so I couldn't get away from him. I just ignored him and didn't reply.


 He just randomly came up and said that? Is amazing posture a really big deal there or something? I don't remember ever noticing a woman's posture.


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## Negativity (Nov 10, 2015)

supply and demand


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

TheWelshOne said:


> I have. In fact my sister is *actually* anorexic. You wanna hear some of the stuff she's been told by men?


I'm sorry to hear that.

While I wrote that I was thinking that I hope no one with anorexia takes it as a personal attack (if anyone did then I apologise, that wasn't my intention).



TheWelshOne said:


> 'Why are you eating that ice cream, don't you know how many calories are in that?'
> 'You don't need to put on weight, you're perfect as you are' (this was at a BMI of 15)
> 'I wouldn't date you if you were a size 16' (UK 16, US 12)
> 
> ...


Well I'm not going to try and justify that kind of behaviour, it's unacceptable.

I think people who would do something like that (irrespective of their personal preferences) are the minority, do you think I'm wrong (serious question)?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

truant said:


> If the man is attracted to how a woman looks when she's all dolled up, she can recreate that effect for him any time if they're dating. It's not a 'lie', it's a performance. If a man lies about having a job he doesn't have, he's just lying. It's not like he really has that job while he's pretending to have that job. There's no way he can "produce the goods" (like money or status) any time he likes, because there are no goods to produce.


I can see your point. However (you saw that coming didn't you?), in this scenario it's the impression of wealth that impressed the woman, she would have mistakenly thought it was an indication of his qualities.

Maybe it would more applicable to envision a man who intentionally does things that would lead women to believe he was a man of means even though he was not but never technically tells any lies, would you think that was acceptable?



truant said:


> I think it's disingenuous to compare makeup to lying. They're not the same sort of thing. Everyone is aware of what makeup does and why people wear it. A man can easily avoid dating a woman who wears a lot of it. A woman can't avoid dating a man who lies to her. That's the whole point of lying. Women don't bother lying to men about having a great job or being an astronaut because men don't give a ****.


To be clear I'm not one of the men that thinks that wearing make up is lying, but there's definitely a point where it stops being "enhancement" and starts becoming "intentionally misleading".

Plus, let's not pretend that there aren't women who lie about their true nature and only reveal it at a later date, this risk is held by both sexes.

I agree, men could simply refuse to date women who wear heavy make up.



truant said:


> A closer analogy would be a man who pretends to be nice when he isn't. He can pretend to be nice any time he wants, if he wants to put in the effort. Being nice is a performance. Maybe we should tell men to stop pretending to be nice when they aren't? But they won't, just like women won't stop wearing makeup.


That would be a closer analogy. I imagine that a woman learning that a man wasn't actually a nice person would be disappointed and wouldn't accept "well you wouldn't have been interested if I hadn't pretended" as a valid explanation.

I don't know if you were specifically referring to this example but being nice isn't always an act.

I dislike the fakery of the dating game (one of the reasons I'm not interested in taking part in it) so I don't approve of that behaviour from men either.



truant said:


> Ime, how relevant a person's opinion is when it comes to sex and dating depends on how attractive you are. No one cares what I think because they have no interest in dating me. My opinion is therefore, objectively, irrelevant. It's only relevant when it affects outcomes.
> 
> That's why men obsess about the "outrageous standards" that attractive women have and call any woman who claims not to have similar standards a liar. They only care what attractive women think because they're only interested in dating attractive women. And the more attractive you are, the higher your standards are going to be, by definition. Men obsess about these "hoops" because they're not going after women who won't make them jump through any.


An opinion doesn't have to be accepted in order to be relevant, if you provide good advice and nobody listens to you the relevance of said advice remains unaffected. It's like the people who assert that anyone without personal first hand experience of something can't comment on it. They can feel that way if they want to but it has no bearing on whether that person's comment is relevant or not.

I do understand what you mean though.



truant said:


> As men seem to know women better than women know themselves. The "fact" that "women lie about everything" is so widely held that it's considered "common sense" by many men.


Maybe both of those groups are incorrect, maybe we should try _actually _communicating and _actually_ listening to each other.

Sometimes I wonder if even that is too idealistic.:serious:


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## 2Milk (Oct 29, 2014)

It's not like they are being forced too. If you don't like doing that then don't do it.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Astron92 said:


> All the time put into posting rebuttals in this thread about "what ifs" while other people are building relationships and improving irl. Maybe...this is doing more bad than good for enhancing actual social skills...
> 
> I guess the best solution is to worry about people individually instead, since it's exhausting trying to rationalize entire genders. I'm sleepy, and tired, and never really had these kinda thoughts since this forum. You get so wrapped in the "Frustration" that it's the only emotion you have on here. I feel so bipolar since I'm so much more "open" mentality when I'm off here.
> 
> Looking back at my post history makes me feel like I get possessed once I log on or something since it's not me. It's so dumb to get into gender charged arguments all the time, especially when the name of the site is Social Anxiety *Support* and I usually wind up doing anything but that. The whole "who has it worse" thing is even stupider than I thought when it just divides rather than unite people and just creates an endless pity party. What the heck is this type of behavior really gonna benefit me/us in the long run aside from making one bitter and judgmental? :stu


I can understand your sentiment. Personally I don't find participating in these discussions emotionally charged (as the emotions of others alone won't affect why I think/feel whatever I think/feel, only evidence can do that), I just try to see if I can find some greater understanding within the stereotypes and bitterness.

The problem isn't the discussion, the problem is that the discussion doesn't lead to greater understanding.

Support that isn't built upon understanding is how cliches and platitudes are born. That might be enough for some but it's not enough for me.

Edit: If you're looking for support you should start some threads asking for some in addition to providing the support you wish to see. As tone is sometimes hard to convey in written communication I'm not saying that in a sarcastic way, it's a genuine suggestion.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> I think people who would do something like that (irrespective of their personal preferences) are the minority, do you think I'm wrong (serious question)?


Yes I do.

If you had a business selling things that nobody wanted to buy, I'm assuming you'd look at what other people are selling and see what's popular.

If size 0 women, heavily contoured/made up women, Brazilian waxed women, and anal bleached women weren't an ideal, they wouldn't get laid. Look around and see how much is geared towards telling women 'this is normal, this is what you should be'. Is that wrong? Yes. Does that mean it's not popular? Of course not. Men and women are being conditioned to assume these things are normal. And unfortunately, the society we're in dictates that anyone who doesn't meet that 'normality' is shamed. Otherwise why would all of us SA people have to congregate on a website like this, instead of getting support from 'normal' people?


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

TheWelshOne said:


> Yes I do.


When I said "these people" I meant people who would actually say things like that to your sister and friends. Contrary to what it may sound like given some of my posts I don't look at humanity and bask in the admiration of our splendor. I don't think we're all bad either but there's a lot I do not care for, a lot. That said I simply haven't seen most people displaying that level of overt malice (but I accept that I could be wrong).



TheWelshOne said:


> If you had a business selling things that nobody wanted to buy, I'm assuming you'd look at what other people are selling and see what's popular.
> 
> If size 0 women, heavily contoured/made up women, Brazilian waxed women, and anal bleached women weren't an ideal, they wouldn't get laid.


That's a non sequitur, just because such women get laid doesn't mean that they are the ideal. Not to mention the fact that such women represent a small minority therefore the overwhelming majority of women getting laid don't meet these standards. Why don't you chose to focus on that instead?



TheWelshOne said:


> Look around and see how much is geared towards telling women 'this is normal, this is what you should be'. Is that wrong? Yes. Does that mean it's not popular? Of course not. Men and women are being conditioned to assume these things are normal. And unfortunately, the society we're in dictates that anyone who doesn't meet that 'normality' is shamed.


That depends entirely on how far away from the "norm" you happen to be. Most "normal" people aren't going to shame you for being a size 8 (pretty sure this is considerably smaller than the average) for instance but someone who's a size 20 is far more likely to suffer that reality, though that doesn't excuse it in any way. If what you said was really true, most women would be unable to find sexual partners, that's not the case. Just as if the stereotypes about all woman only caring about money were true, most men wouldn't be able to find sexual partners, that is also not the case.

This would be one of the rare instances where I'm glad to be an outcast who has somehow retained the ability to think for himself.



TheWelshOne said:


> Otherwise why would all of us SA people have to congregate on a website like this, instead of getting support from 'normal' people?


Because unfortunately many people don't seem able to comprehend that which they have no personal experience of, so avoidance becomes the preferred course of action (there are exceptions of course). Even amongst us, "the shamed" there is no shortage of lacking empathy, jumping to conclusions and dismissal over enquiry.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> When I said "these people" I meant people who would actually say things like that to your sister and friends. Contrary to what it may sound like given some of my posts I don't look at humanity and bask in the admiration of our splendor. I don't think we're all bad either but there's a lot I do not care for, a lot. That said I simply haven't seen most people displaying that level of overt malice (but I accept that I could be wrong).


Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. Yes, I do believe that most people say things like that. Even women. Do you know how many people - even strangers - ask my sister if she's pregnant? As an anorexic, when she puts weight on she bloats which means it goes straight to her stomach. And because she has a tiny frame, thanks to her eating disorder, people assume she's pregnant. It seems common sense to me that you don't ask a woman if she's pregnant until she tells you. But that hasn't stopped dozens of people asking her.

I'm not saying it's malice. It's not. They genuinely believe they're being helpful. Like fat shamers. You watch someone berate a fatty for eating a burger and a Diet Coke. They don't see that they're doing anything bad - they truly believe that shaming that person into putting down their food is what will help them lose weight.



> That's a non sequitur, just because such women get laid doesn't mean that they are the ideal. Not to mention the fact that such women represent a small minority therefore the overwhelming majority of women getting laid don't meet these standards. Why don't you chose to focus on that instead?


You asked if I believed people who believed such things were in the majority. I explained to you why I thought they were. Society tells us this is how people should be, anyone else is shamed until they at least *strive* to meet those standards. And I believe I did make it clear that those women were all separate categories. I.e. if you cannot be a size 0 then you must be in one of the other categories. If women weren't expected to meet these standards, the beauty industry wouldn't be doing such a booming business, would it? Razors, epilators, depilators, waxes, bleach, lasers, threading, tweezers - how many women do you think don't have these things in their house or on their schedule? If women are still considered brave for posting makeup free photos (as splendidbob said), or getting shamed for having visible hair, what makes you think the majority of men don't care about these things?



> That depends entirely on how far away from the "norm" you happen to be. Most "normal" people aren't going to shame you for being a size 8 (pretty sure this is considerably smaller than the average) for instance but someone who's a size 20 is far more likely to suffer that reality, though that doesn't excuse it in any way. If what you said was really true, most women would be unable to find sexual partners, that's not the case. Just as if the stereotypes about all woman only caring about money were true, most men wouldn't be able to find sexual partners, that is also not the case.
> 
> This would be one of the rare instances where I'm glad to be an outcast who has somehow retained the ability to think for himself.


The norm in the UK is 14-16. If you go back to my original post about my sister's comments from men, you'll see that one of the guys told her he wouldn't date her *at the national average.* Besides which, a size 0 is a US measurement. The UK equivalent is a size 4. Therefore a UK8 is a US4, that's still model size. A US size 6 (UK size 10) model is just about the top of the industry standard. Many places don't hire size 6 models. And a US8/UK12 is considered plus size.

The national average is considered plus size. This should be a positive thing, because it should change the way we look at size and health. But it isn't. It just means that average women get told they're disgustingly obese, and size 20 women (I happen to be one of those, by the way) are invisible. *Unless* they have something going for them.

An example: An old friend of mine was possibly larger than me. She was also a raging extrovert and extremely easy. Yes, she got men, but do you think she would have if she was demure and chaste? No. And did she get relationships? No. She got laid. Because that is all she is good for in a society that favours 'thin and beautiful'.



> Because unfortunately many people don't seem able to comprehend that which they have no personal experience of, so avoidance becomes the preferred course of action (there are exceptions of course). Even amongst us, "the shamed" there is no shortage of lacking empathy, jumping to conclusions and dismissal over enquiry.


For instance, men who tell women that they clearly don't have to wear makeup or shave or be a size 0 because *they* don't have those standards so clearly the majority of men don't?

I don't really see the point in continuing this conversation. We're never going to agree, we have different personal experiences and any proof I show you is going to be dismissed as internet trolls. I also don't want to get this thread locked for gender wars. Keep your standards, see how many women you meet who don't fit the ones I suggested in any way. Then maybe you'll appreciate what I'm trying to say.


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## JaegerLover217 (Feb 23, 2016)

i remember one person said and it got me very mad, it was a woman, she said "a female grizzly would never choose a weak male that was scared to fight for her", ya, the bear mating dance, courtship ritual, looks more simple, straight to the point, than it is in humans


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## TreeOfWolf (Oct 17, 2016)

Girls are told not to speak to men unless spoken to, that they're in charge.

Girls must:
- wax their legs, bikinis, arm pits, eyebrows, mustache, arms...
- Must paint their faces into a work of art that would make the classical artists feel ashamed of their work. Everyday.
- be super thin yet have giant tits
- It's impossible so get eating disorders, starving yourself, making yourself puke daily... Feeling so cold and miserable that you constantly wish you were dead but endure in the hope to be loved for it someday...
- they end up losing boobs too, so get their skin cut open and put lung crushing balloons under their skin
- always be ready to say yes to men's desires because they have no right to choose for themselves or even what they do to their own body, just sexual objects to be sold for goats.
- women have to cook, clean, feed the baby, change diapers, work too because she should get her own money and not bother men.
- must handle contraception, get their hormones all ****ed up, moody and fat, by taking the pill... which will trick her body into thinking she's already pregnant, killing her libido, but she can open her legs anyway so who cares about pleasure... Or get stuff put inside her body by a stranger, things that hurts and can kill her... because condoms don't feel as good for men... so women should risk death.
- Their emotions don't matter because that's men's weakness, they're better at logic, so women must be inferior if it's not their specialty too.
- Injecting venom, poison, that's what bottox is... straight in their faces.... to have bigger lips that look like horny aroused vaninas... to look like they're in heat, ready to grab and ****, without having to woe them first or even ask permission because who cares, they're just self gratification tools.
- If they get raped the cops blame what they wore, even though they were told to wear uncomfortable tight clothes, and shoes that deforms your feet, spine, to make your *** and tits look bigger...

And you wonder why women snap like rabid monsters breaking their chains sometimes.

Men created those monsters. And now they must deal with them.

We all own our own lives. If that's what I have to do to be loved. Then I'll love myself. I'll defend myself.

The grass isn't greener on the other side. The grass will be as green as you'll make it.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

TreeOfWolf said:


> Girls must:
> - wax their legs, bikinis, arm pits, eyebrows, mustache, arms...
> - Must paint their faces into a work of art that would make the classical artists feel ashamed of their work. Everyday.
> - be super thin yet have giant tits
> ...


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## doe deer (Oct 9, 2016)

TreeOfWolf said:


> Girls are told not to speak to men unless spoken to, that they're in charge.
> 
> Girls must:
> - wax their legs, bikinis, arm pits, eyebrows, mustache, arms...
> ...


no, girls don't have to do any of these things and this is extremely far-fetched. 
this is a way for people with lack of self-control and critical thinking to blame others for their issues.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

TheWelshOne said:


> I don't really see the point in continuing this conversation. We're never going to agree, we have different personal experiences and any proof I show you is going to be dismissed as internet trolls. I also don't want to get this thread locked for gender wars. Keep your standards, see how many women you meet who don't fit the ones I suggested in any way. Then maybe you'll appreciate what I'm trying to say.


You're probably right, no matter how many times I falsify one of your claims you seem to want to believe that the world is against you. I can't force you to change your mind, but I hope that you and the women that agree with you at least have the honesty to realise how hypocritical you're being when you accuse some of the men here of being irrational when they do the *exact* same thing.

I hope that one day you'll stop wanting to beat yourself up, life's hard enough without you choosing to make it harder for yourself.

I'm sure you won't listen to me though, you wouldn't be the first and I doubt you'll be the last.

Oh well.:stu


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

TreeOfWolf said:


> Girls are told not to speak to men unless spoken to, that they're in charge.
> 
> Girls must:
> - wax their legs, bikinis, arm pits, eyebrows, mustache, arms...
> ...


You know sex without condoms is usually better for women from what I've read, at least if the guy has foreskin, otherwise I imagine it matters less + probably partly psychological.

They should be coming out with more male contraception options soon though since they've been working on some stuff for a while now.

The female hormonal stuff... Honestly not worth it if it effects your sex drive, just stay single or do things other than piv. Shame most women want a relationship and are willing to compromise by having **** sex they don't enjoy.

A lot of the other stuff you've listed isn't stuff most women do from what I've seen makeup and shaving/waxing is I don't think most who aren't famous get a lot of other stuff done in the UK anyway.

I also don't think police treating rape victims so insensitively is common. Our society seems to think all men are *******s..

Guy's preferences in breast size vary hugely most don't care as long as you're not flat chested. Waist-hip ratio and having a nice *** are more important. And a lot of guys aren't a fan of breasts that seem disproportionate to the body.

I also don't know where you picked up the bit about not speaking unless spoken to did you grow up in Saudi Arabia? And isn't that an old saying people said to children anyway? I googled it, I think it was in the bible something similar about women not speaking? So yeah, the Middle East again wouldn't you know. Try to ignore the crazy Christian ****.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

It does seem like it's almost expected for the woman to go on the birth control pill if they are in a relationship. I keep reading on various forums of women were being heavily pressured into going on the pill because the guy hated condoms.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

doe deer said:


> no, girls don't have to do any of these things and this is extremely far-fetched.
> this is a way for people with lack of self-control and critical thinking to blame others for their issues.


I pretty much agree. I would even go as far to say the pressure that some women feel to do those things is actually from other women - we are a competitive species, it's kinda just what we do sadly.

Men do the same thing with stuff like weight lifting and buying fancy cars etc. It's something spurned on directly/indirectly by other guys and then feeling inadequate.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Do you want to date a woman who expects you to take on a role you dislike taking on? I've read some of your posts before and think you'll end up unhappy since you like 'masculine' proactive women. I don't know though, maybe any woman is better? I'm not quite your age or anywhere near lonely enough to deal with a dynamic I dislike, even if they look good. but given the way things are, I can understand why you'd cave in. I feel sorry for you I guess. I wonder if there is a dating site for people that want to flip things.
> 
> Unless you do want to take on the stereotypical male role, but just feel like you can't. That's most guys here's problem, I'm just not sure if it's yours or not. And if it's not, improving at it won't help you.


No, I don't even have the desire to lead a woman, to provide or protect, beyond how I would want to provide and protect a friend. You're right I'm sick of being alone. I make less than 40K a year in an area where the average rent is $2100/month and I'm paying a men's coach $5000 to help me out. She is wonderful and supportive.

I'm not going to fake it till I make it. I'm hoping that if I act it enough times, I will become it. I'm forcing myself to look at women sexually even when I'm talking to them about batteries or ordering fries. I'm trying to push the envelope with female strangers, calling them "sexy", approaching them for a flirty conversation and initiating touch, at first kind of uncomfortably, but as I gain confidence, it will come off as completely natural to both me and the woman. Never forget that you are talking to a woman. Openly check women out and let them see you do it. (Ethical) pick up artist videos and tutorials are good with teaching such skills. I recommend that the guys here who are scared "to put forth most of the effort" check them out.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

Cuz my instincts like it more that way - I should fight against my instincts! I also have urges to hit on guys - but I get weird looks man - I should keep on going and ignore the weird looks! Too many people opinions in my mind keep me in line - I should do whatever I want!


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## JaegerLover217 (Feb 23, 2016)

ya, the idea of life should be fair or the concept of fairness is a huge lie that has been pounded into us since birth


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## TreeOfWolf (Oct 17, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> You know sex without condoms is usually better for women from what I've read, at least if the guy has foreskin, otherwise I imagine it matters less + probably partly psychological.
> 
> They should be coming out with more male contraception options soon though since they've been working on some stuff for a while now.
> 
> ...


Hi, sorry I was freaking out about other stuff. I'm Canadian and I have horror stories to tell, and seeing gang rape in other cultures be allowed is appalling to me... so my point was... I wish all I had to do was ask for what I want... instead to do all that crazy **** and hope to be picked... I don't.... but I get bombed by ads everywhere... telling me that I'll never be loved unless I do this and buy that...

So yeah... if all you have to complain about is to have to ask... I envy you.

Please keep asking. Rape is worse than murder to me. At least when I'm dead I don't have to live with it.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

TreeOfWolf said:


> Hi, sorry I was freaking out about other stuff. I'm Canadian and I have horror stories to tell, and seeing gang rape in other cultures be allowed is appalling to me... so my point was... I wish all I had to do was ask for what I want... instead to do all that crazy **** and hope to be picked... I don't.... but I get bombed by ads everywhere... telling me that I'll never be loved unless I do this and buy that...
> 
> So yeah... if all you have to complain about is to have to ask... I envy you.
> 
> Please keep asking. Rape is worse than murder to me. At least when I'm dead I don't have to live with it.


Fallacy of relative privation.

I'm sorry if you were raped (I'm not sure if that's what you're saying or not.)


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

Guys gets rejected all the time becuse of this, which gives them low self-esteem.

Females can pick and choose, they are in charge. That gives them good self-esteem.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

ljubo said:


> Guys gets rejected all the time becuse of this, which gives them low self-esteem.
> 
> Females can pick and choose, they are in charge. That gives them good self-esteem.


Are you willfully ignoring the contrary opinions women of SAS continually offer?

Why beat this dead horse?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

ljubo said:


> Guys gets rejected all the time becuse of this, which gives them low self-esteem.
> 
> Females can pick and choose, they are in charge. That gives them good self-esteem.


Plenty of men have high self esteem. Plenty of women have low self esteem. Stop externalizing. Your issues begin and end with your thoughts and feelings, which, thankfully, are completely within your control. Get help- therapy, self help, mindfulness, medication, exposure, exercise, whatever you have to do, do it. This doesn't have to continue like this for long. It's in your control. I know it's hard to believe. I struggled with learned helplessness for years. But i promise things do get better. Good luck.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

ljubo said:


> Guys gets rejected all the time becuse of this, which gives them low self-esteem.
> 
> Females can pick and choose, they are in charge. That gives them good self-esteem.


What about women with low self-esteem? What's happened to them?


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

TheWelshOne said:


> What about women with low self-esteem? What's happened to them?


Haven't you heard? Men love us in spite of ANYTHING and are flocking to our doors! We have our pick of ANY man we like!

...I should be hearing a knocking sound any moment.

_Aaaannnnnnny_ moment.

*waits*


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

tehuti88 said:


> Haven't you heard? Men love us in spite of ANYTHING and are flocking to our doors! We have our pick of ANY man we like!
> 
> ...I should be hearing a knocking sound any moment.
> 
> ...


:lol

I'm aware that women - even virgins - are able to get any man they want for sex just by asking.

Funny how I dropped an offer in a thread *two days ago* and I've had no responses.


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## AllTheSame (Mar 19, 2016)

ljubo said:


> Guys gets rejected all the time becuse of this, which gives them low self-esteem.
> 
> Females can pick and choose, they are in charge. That gives them good self-esteem.


I don't see it that way at all. Women get rejected just as often (if not more) than men....they're traditionally expected to be approached by guys, to be asked out. That's not to say they can't approach guys lol, it's more acceptable now than I think it's ever been before....but....a lot of the time it's still just not expected and it's not the norm. I've been approached by women, I've been asked out before but it's very, very rarely happened to me.

So it really has nothing to do with having or not having self esteem, imo. Just because you aren't expected to make the first move, just because you can say yes or no to a guy, doesn't mean you're really necessarily in control....any more or any less than guys are. That doesn't make it any easier to get a date, get laid, get into a serious relationship, get married.....none of that lol. All that means is...you might (emphasis on might) get approached more often than you approach. It doesn't guarantee anything. It doesn't make the dating game any easier, at all in my opinion.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

realisticandhopeful said:


> Plenty of men have high self esteem. Plenty of women have low self esteem. Stop externalizing. Your issues begin and end with your thoughts and feelings, which, thankfully, are completely within your control. Get help- therapy, self help, mindfulness, medication, exposure, exercise, whatever you have to do, do it. This doesn't have to continue like this for long. It's in your control. I know it's hard to believe. I struggled with learned helplessness for years. But i promise things do get better. Good luck.


Men with high self-esteem have a tendency to be douchebags , i prefer men with decent self-esteem .

Yes i know many guys have good self-esteem and many women have low self-esteem, but the system that guys most approach ends up in more guys have bad self-esteem since they are the ones getting turned down all the time while females can pick and choose. I am talking generally now.

You are talking about me now? Ok lets talk. Thoughts and feelings? What. The problem with me is my body and face, i am really really ugly. I am so ugly that i will never get a friend. It has nothing to do with my thoughts and feelings, i could go around and smile and pretend that i am hot and cool, but that will not change anything, i would still be really really ugly and friendless. Happy thoughts and happy feelings does not make people accepting my flaws. What i need is a miracle.

Therapy? I have 3 therapists (2 males 1 female). It does not help.

Self help? You mean reading books about good self-esteem etc? Yeah i tried that, not working.

Mindfulness? Not possible i already tried.

Medication against depression etc would give me: 









Exposure, exercise....yeah thats what my therapists tells me to do and i am doing it, its not working. I get panic attacks.

Things will get better? How, in what way? I will get cancer probaly at the age of 35 according to my doctors since i have constant acid reflux due to my hietus hernia, i have pain everyday in my chest, i can not eat anything i tried all diets and anti-acid reflux pills and nothing helpes, i live in agony, you are telling to accept this physical pain? Not a chance. I am not some robot who can accept severe pain my whole life. I can hardly sleep becuse of this pain. There is no cure for it, i talk to so many doctors, surgery will not help. And also i am for real one of the most ugly guys on earth and boring as **** with no hope to get a friend or to get socially accepted i can not even go out without people laughing at me becuse of the way i look and walk. And i tried talk with people online but it always ends after 1-2 sentace and people always make personal assualt against me or ignore me, if i can not even talk to people on internet how can i talk to people in real life, i will never get accepted by anyone. There is zero hope for me, 0.


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

ljubo said:


> Men with high self-esteem have a tendency to be douchebags , i prefer men with decent self-esteem .
> 
> Yes i know many guys have good self-esteem and many women have low self-esteem, but the system that guys most approach ends up in more guys have bad self-esteem since they are the ones getting turned down all the time while females can pick and choose. I am talking generally now.
> 
> ...


Yup you're right. I agree.


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## Ai (Oct 13, 2012)

SofaKing said:


> Are you willfully ignoring the contrary opinions women of SAS continually offer?
> 
> Why beat this dead horse?


Because people continue to respond.

He doesn't actually want advice. I'm not even sure he wants people to reaffirm what he (maybe) thinks to be true... He _literally_ only wants to argue. He can't even choose a consistent stance... 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

doe deer said:


> no, girls don't have to do any of these things and this is extremely far-fetched.
> this is a way for people with lack of self-control and critical thinking to blame others for their issues.


Yes. It's a complete stretch. Women...their "chains"...come on.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

realisticandhopeful said:


> Yup you're right. I agree.


"But i promise things do get better."

then why did you write that? you change your opinions just in matter of minutes.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

Ai said:


> Because people continue to respond.
> 
> He doesn't actually want advice. I'm not even sure he wants people to reaffirm what he (maybe) thinks to be true... He _literally_ only wants to argue. He can't even choose a consistent stance...
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


what on earth are you even talking about? i already followed all advice and it will not help me, it seems you dont get that i have 100s of flaws, i am not like others. you have not even once said any argument to why someone would accept a guy with bad self-esteem or 100s of flaws nor have you showed any evidence.

yes i want to argue just like you and everyone else does, but since i am a guy with this problem you look down at me, i am not allowed to feel like this but females are.

my stance is clear, try to read my posts with better understanding instead of accusing me of random stuff.


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

ljubo said:


> "But i promise things do get better."
> 
> then why did you write that? you change your opinions just in matter of minutes.


Will not argue with someone already convinced. You've argued all your limitations and I won't fight you. What you believe is true is true, so even though I know you can get better, if you're certain you won't then that's your future. I can't have hope for you. You can only do it for yourself. Hope you find it within yourself to look for some possibilities instead of limitations. Good luck.


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## relm1 (Sep 13, 2016)

Though I haven't read any of the responses to this thread (I apologize) the answer is self evident. It's called behavioral biology. In most animals, the alpha male procreates most. The alpha male also tends to die younger than the beta male hence a greater desire to procreate. They are violently challenged more frequently. We are biological creatures who for the past few hundred thousand to million years have been wild animals and only been civilized for a few thousand/hundred years. Remember, we had no written language 5,000 years ago. Verbal language might have existed 50,000 before in the form of monosyllabic grunts and groans. Today we have technology, weaponry, group think (cultures) that complicates the situation but it is essentially the same as when two monkey tribes encounter each other. The alpha/stronger will eliminate the other tribe if they don't aqueous or flee. We are mostly the same genetically. In a hundred thousand years, monkeys might be where we are now but that is a snapshot in biographic time.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

realisticandhopeful said:


> Will not argue with someone already convinced. You've argued all your limitations and I won't fight you. What you believe is true is true, so even though I know you can get better, if you're certain you won't then that's your future. I can't have hope for you. You can only do it for yourself. Hope you find it within yourself to look for some possibilities instead of limitations. Good luck.


What i belive about myself is true, i know myself better than you do. If a guy have 100s of flaws how is it possible that somebody will accept him when even better guys than him have it really hard or even zero hope? What is the argument that someone will like me when i have 100s of flaws and everyone is scared or look down at guys who had anxiety or bad self-esteem more than 10 years? And i already got my proof about me being worthless and unwanted by everyone, those proof is the fact that i am soon 26 and still virgin and kissless and never had a friend, i can not even talk to people on internet more than 2-3 sentance until it dies out and i always get mocked and bullied everywhere. How can i possible feel good about myself with this life i have. If you where like me you would also be this negative.

Better how? Feeling better about myself but still getting bullied by many and being alone my whole life? This is hardly an improvement.


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

ljubo said:


> What i belive about myself is true, i know myself better than you do. If a guy have 100s of flaws how is it possible that somebody will accept him when even better guys than him have it really hard or even zero hope? What is the argument that someone will like me when i have 100s of flaws and everyone is scared or look down at guys who had anxiety or bad self-esteem more than 10 years? And i already got my proof about me being worthless and unwanted by everyone, those proof is the fact that i am soon 26 and still virgin and kissless and never had a friend, i can not even talk to people on internet more than 2-3 sentance until it dies out and i always get mocked and bullied everywhere. How can i possible feel good about myself with this life i have. If you where like me you would also be this negative.
> 
> Better how? Feeling better about myself but still getting bullied by many and being alone my whole life? This is hardly an improvement.


Yup you're right. Again I won't argue. Just hope at some point you can see a little differently. That's all.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

realisticandhopeful said:


> Yup you're right. Again I won't argue. Just hope at some point you can see a little differently. That's all.


you say i am right then you say you hope i can see differently? how? if even you agree my chances are 0? and also you say "little", its like you want me to keep live in agony or something.


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## gisellemarx (Feb 1, 2010)

Not true. I made the first move 9 out of 10 times in my relationship with my boyfriend.


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## JaegerLover217 (Feb 23, 2016)

well thats very nice and awesome when it does happen


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

JaegerLover217 said:


> well thats very nice and awesome when it does happen


Why do you keep bumping the same threads weekly?

Who are you working for!?

Nah I'm joking. I think.


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## JaegerLover217 (Feb 23, 2016)

ya, even as early as my teens i have had fantasies of beating up a girls boyfriend out of jealousy and anger, and i like to think that thought is more common in guys than we think, hence why we see male animals fighting over females in the animal kingdom, i like to think that is a natural, instinctive, primal urge


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Why do you keep bumping the same threads weekly?
> 
> Who are you working for!?
> 
> Nah I'm joking. I think.


He's doing it again!

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...one-has-social-skills-1972393/#post1089252961

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...m-destined-to-be-single-99249/#post1089252953

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...ever-get-a-girlfriend-1974273/#post1089252937

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...ted-pissed-1816825/index3.html#post1089252889

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...ar-more-at-1746353/index6.html#post1089253105

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...hining-night-in-armor-1941554/#post1089253201

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...zation-that-i-ll-most-1266745/#post1089253137

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...ever-have-a-boyfriend-1976201/#post1089253161

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...o-cant-get-1949602/index3.html#post1089253129


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

JaegerLover217 said:


> ya, even as early as my teens i have had fantasies of beating up a girls boyfriend out of jealousy and anger, and i like to think that thought is more common in guys than we think, hence why we see male animals fighting over females in the animal kingdom, i like to think that is a natural, instinctive, primal urge


Nice.

Go give it a try!



komorikun said:


> He's doing it again!


He must be getting something out of this, I'm just not sure what. :con


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

Xenacat said:


> Every time I have tried to initiate, it backfires on me. Guys think something is wrong with you or you're desperate. Just talking about my personal experience.


How did you initiate? maybe try doing it in a more passive way? One of the only times a pretty girl has initiated with me was when I was riding my bike and this girl said nice bike. Then I started talking to her. I can assure I didnt think anything was wrong with her because she said nice bike and I doubt most guys would either. All you have to do is give guys an easy opportunity to talk to you.

Now another time I was eating alone in the cafeteria in college and a girl came and sat down and asked if she could eat with me. I was a little taken a back by that but I would still have been willing to get to know her except my SA was so bad back then I avoided even saying hi when I saw her around my residence hall.

Anyway in answer to this thread its obvious why guys have to initiate, its because sperm is so much cheaper than a womb. A guy can produce millions of sperm and impregnate hundreds of women whereas a women only produces one egg a month and has to carry a baby for 9 months. So biologically it is in her interest to be selective about who she mates with whereas the male wants to spread his genes as much as possible.

A good analogy would be farming. Which is more valuable, seeds or a plot of land to grow them on? Because seeds are cheap and abundant the guy selling seeds is going to be expected to make the effort in getting others to buy his seeds whereas the guy who owns land is simply going to choose the best looking seeds.

Thats the biological reason behind it. of course some of it is cultural too. Some cultures have had arranged marriages for instance, or other types of courtship rituals. I bet in times when the majority of men were killed in wars and there was an over abundance of females, they were more likely to make the first move.


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## Reset Button (Feb 2, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> It doesn't matter why. _At all_. It is the way it is. Being annoyed at this is like being annoyed that cakes are high calorie. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, it isn't going to change.
> 
> There is an illusion that if people just understood "how unfair it all is" then things would change. It wont.


*/thread*


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## JaegerLover217 (Feb 23, 2016)

ya it just a major social injustice thats all


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

Here are a few reasons why women don't approach.

*1. They don't have to. * The reason why many women don't make the first move is simply because they don't have to. If you're a young woman who's moderately attractive, then chances are men are going to approach you no matter where you go.

*2. Women get approach anxiety too* So a girl see's a guy she likes, she may have no idea what to say to him.


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## Act to fall (Apr 15, 2017)

I don't see how you could possibly make this claim, every relationship I've ever seen has been the exact opposite. Men are often much lazier in relationships and expect so much sacrifice from their girlfriends while giving nothing.


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## Mondo_Fernando (Jun 26, 2014)

Act to fall said:


> I don't see how you could possibly make this claim, every relationship I've ever seen has been the exact opposite. Men are often much lazier in relationships and expect so much sacrifice from their girlfriends while giving nothing.


I think because we men don't adapt to change very well and or get depressed which creates the laziness. Women are constantly going through changes in their life, so adapt quicker to changes. Basically women keep away from depression, as keep moving forward in life (not every woman, but most). Failure is not an option sort of thing as a wise woman once said, so women swallow their pride and do what they have to do when major changes present themselves in their lives. That's what has always fascinated me about women, how they are able to do that.


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