# Site Announcement



## SAS Admin

Hello Everyone, 

There have been numerous threads either criticizing the staff or complaining about the lack there of moderation. Now I will address the first, criticizing staff, and out rite accusing them of misuses of their power. 

All staff member are volunteers and use their own free time to be here and help keep this forum on the right track. The staff members flow the guidelines that have been set up on this site and use those guidelines to issues infractions and deal with issues on the site accordingly. Now I do understand that sometimes a member may feel as though something has been unfairly done to them, but this does not give that user the right to go against forum rules and blatantly criticize the staff. If users have an issue with a staff members decision or action they are free to PM myself and I will do my best to address the issue. Accusations and mud slinging will not be tolerated. If members choose to ignore this warning the thread they start will be deleted and I will contact them directly. Infractions up to and including a permanent ban may be given. 

The next issue is the complaining about lack of moderation. The admin team is finding it increasingly hard to find staff members who want to stay on, why is this, because of the threads criticizing the staff, and the personal attacks members take on the staff. There is no reason to harass anyone, let alone a staff member. 

Moving forward I hope that these issues can be tamed and that users can use myself as a resource to help resolve issues they may have with the staff. 

Please remember that the staff on this site are all volunteers and user their own time to help keep this forum running. They should be thanked and treated with a better level of respect. 

Thanks for read 
SAS Admin


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## Just Lurking

SAS said:


> There have been numerous threads either criticizing the staff or complaining about the lack there of moderation.


The threads here that criticize the moderators and complain about the lack of moderation are *misdirected*. People are being hostile with the moderators when their *real *target should be the *administration *for its absenteeism and its butchering and mishandling of the site over the past year.



SAS said:


> Now I do understand that sometimes a member may feel as though something has been unfairly done to them, but this does not give that user the right to go against forum rules and blatantly criticize the staff.


Actually, yes, they should be open to (constructive) criticism. If they are not, then they are not cut out for moderating.

A forum on which the staff has no accountability will remain stunted in its growth.

If moderators are being personally attacked, then that is when they need the administration to step in and put a user in their place. Instead, it seems that the mods have been largely fending for themselves for the past six months.

You are quite fortunate that you even have a staff (and a site) left. The only reason this site is still on its feet is due to its sheer size and _because_ your three mods have held steady through all its turmoil.



SAS said:


> If users have an issue with a staff members decision or action they are free to PM myself and I will do my best to address the issue.


Who is "myself" here? You haven't even identified yourself, much less been active on the forum or addressing the issues (some of them quite glaring) brought up in Board Feedback.

As an example -- What if someone wants to appeal a ban? How do they contact you? Your FAQ section tells the banned user to post in the Feedback forum. There are two things wrong with this: 1) You're never around or posting in the Feedback forum to begin with, and 2) the bigger problem: a banned user has no posting rights; in fact, they can't even view the forums at all when they're logged in. Yet this is the only option you make available to a wrongfully banned user. "_Have you been wrongfully banned? OK, post your appeal in this forum that you don't have access to._" ...???



SAS said:


> The next issue is the complaining about lack of moderation. The admin team is finding it increasingly hard to find staff members who want to stay on, why is this, because of the threads criticizing the staff, and the personal attacks members take on the staff.


It has nothing to do with criticism against the moderators.

The reason you're finding it difficult to find more moderators is due to the current environment on the forums, a situation that can be directly attributed to the administration's neglect and gross mishandling of the forums over the past year.

Do you really think you're going to find efficient, well-meaning moderators under this current situation? Where an administrator won't even identify themselves? Where the significant majority of the forum doesn't even know *who* they'd be working for (read: anonymous admin) and with (read: anonymous moderators)? Where an administrator doesn't address all the issues being brought up in its own Feedback forum? Where an administrator doesn't come to the public defense of its moderators when they're under attack? When it's not even clear *who even owns the site*?

Why in the *world* should I ("I" meaning anyone you invite to be a mod) come on board as a moderator here, and help put money in your pocket, when all of these issues are still outstanding and have been unaddressed for such a long time now?



SAS said:


> Please remember that the staff on this site are all volunteers and user their own time to help keep this forum running. They should be thanked and treated with a better level of respect.


Maybe if the staff were able to present themselves on the site as human beings rather than robots (read again: anonymous moderation), the users on the site would be able to better relate to where the moderators are coming from in their decision-making process, and thus show a bit more respect for them.



SAS said:


> Moving forward I hope that these issues can be tamed and that users can use myself as a resource to help resolve issues they may have with the staff.


You have to actually 'be here' and be responsive in order for users to "use you as a resource."

Are you actually going to be around and available now? Is this thread a start?

Suffice to say, I'm quite skeptical -- given the past year, for good reason. If this is indeed an administrator who's actually going to show their face around here, great, but you have a lot of work ahead of you to turn this site around, and it's going to take a lot of time and effort on your part.

If you're just blowing smoke, though, then don't even bother. This thread is pointless, if that's the case.



SAS said:


> Thanks for read
> SAS Admin


Yes, of course - the anonymous sign-off.

See, this is where you lose me again. Why won't you identify yourself? Who are you? If there's nothing to hide, why not identify yourself and show your personality here?

---

Hopefully, you will address some of the issues that I've brought up in this post (you have ignored all other attempts and forms of contact).


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## Aphexfan

Just Lurking COULDN NOT have said it better myself, absolutely brilliant post!


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## peril

I hope JL's post don't get ignored this time.


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## Cam1

Like Lurking said, I think the Mods would be treated better if they weren't anonymous "robots". The previous mods were treated with a high level of respect because they were regular users like the rest of us. Anonymity on the internet is rarely a good thing, when there's no person to attach things to people say really stupid things.


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## WineKitty

I think JL said it all. The hidden mod thing was widely rejected by the members of this community yet SAS went ahead with a widely unpopular idea and yet now seem mystified as to why it isn't working. Going back to the old days of mods having absolute power and critiques leading to bans will just bring back the same old problems we had before. I realize there is a "pm me" option but most people don't seem confident in getting a response.


*This was brought to my attention by someone---I am dealing with a personal thing and wont be posting in regular forums. But I wanted to support JL and the stand he took.


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## the collector

Hi, just lurking. = )
: /


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## Mersault

I am a new member in this forum, but personally never had a negative experience with its mods. I have been a member in a couple of other forums, in one for almost a decade now, and i am sure that moderating on that one is a thousand times more strict than in SAS. 
Mods can be just as much cruel, uncaring or worse, no matter if they are regular posters or not. In fact in most sites mods form their own clique, and chronism runs rampant then.

In conclusion, although SAS has really very loose moderating (in my experience) which sometimes leads to some posters being consistently impolite, i do think that this is better than a strict moderating. Although some posters are impolite, all in all i rather like this forum.


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## SAS Admin

While your opinions may be valid, I am not taking your bate and going off topic. The mod team has been working hard to address the issues you have pointed out and we are trying our hardest to to address issues that members bring up. 

The fact that mods are anonymous has nothing to do with this, and does not give a user the right to harass them in any way. A large majority of the staff bashing goes on via PM's that are sent to them. Members who are given infractions or users who don;t like something they said go ahead and think that gives them the right to assault the staff with words. 

This in my mind is a bigger issue then anything you have stated. If you have forum concerns you are more then welcome to address them with myself, but please do not take away from the fact that the staff has been mistreated. 

Justifying people actions by saying it is because of anonymity is not a fair argument. All people should be treated with respect regardless of circumstances.


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## I Punt Puppies

Cam1 said:


> Like Lurking said, I think the Mods would be treated better if they weren't anonymous "robots". The previous mods were treated with a high level of respect because they were regular users like the rest of us. Anonymity on the internet is rarely a good thing, when there's no person to attach things to people say really stupid things.


Well to be fair there is a mod who post on the geek central boards and stuff. And do you know why they're probably anonymous? It's probably because some of the posters are acting like raging teenagers when they're nasty post are deleted and sending nasty PMs and stuff. Some of that is uncalled for.

You can't let the inmates run the asylum. That's one thing that's for sure.


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## Brasilia




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## Jcgrey

I agree with and stand with Just Lurking!


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## I Punt Puppies

SAS said:


> While your opinions may be valid, I am not taking your bate and going off topic. The mod team has been working hard to address the issues you have pointed out and we are trying our hardest to to address issues that members bring up.
> 
> The fact that mods are anonymous has nothing to do with this, and does not give a user the right to harass them in any way. A large majority of the staff bashing goes on via PM's that are sent to them. Members who are given infractions or users who don;t like something they said go ahead and think that gives them the right to assault the staff with words.
> 
> This in my mind is a bigger issue then anything you have stated. If you have forum concerns you are more then welcome to address them with myself, but please do not take away from the fact that the staff has been mistreated.
> 
> Justifying people actions by saying it is because of anonymity is not a fair argument. All people should be treated with respect regardless of circumstances.


Well said. I can't believe people are actually trying to justify harassment. Unreal.


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## Brad

SAS said:


> If you have forum concerns you are more then welcome to address them with myself, but please do not take away from the fact that the staff has been mistreated.


I PMed you


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## SAS Admin

Sent you a message back.


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## Just Lurking

SAS said:


> While your opinions may be valid, I am not taking your bate and going off topic. The mod team has been working hard to address the issues you have pointed out and we are trying our hardest to to address issues that members bring up.
> 
> The fact that mods are anonymous has nothing to do with this, and does not give a user the right to harass them in any way. A large majority of the staff bashing goes on via PM's that are sent to them. Members who are given infractions or users who don;t like something they said go ahead and think that gives them the right to assault the staff with words.
> 
> This in my mind is a bigger issue then anything you have stated. If you have forum concerns you are more then welcome to address them with myself, but please do not take away from the fact that the staff has been mistreated.
> 
> Justifying people actions by saying it is because of anonymity is not a fair argument. All people should be treated with respect regardless of circumstances.


Did you even read and take in what all I said?

THAT is what you took from it? That I'm justifying the personal attacks on the moderators? Really?

I can't even begin to address that reply. There comes a point... a certain amount of obliviousness... where it simply can't be overcome. I feel like we've gone past that point, so here is me throwing my hands up in the air.

Hey, it's your site, but if you want to improve things around here (if you even *see *that they need improving), then I suggest you get your act together, get involved, and get some semblance of a clue of what actually goes on around here.


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## Just Lurking

By the way, I *was* a moderator here. I know *exactly* what they deal with, and I very much support them.

The issue here has always been the *administration*, not the moderators.


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## SAS Admin

JL again this is not the thread to air out your grievances against site administration.


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## lonelyjew

I only tend to hang out in a few places, so maybe I've missed something, I haven't noticed the terrible management that everyone seems to be agreeing on... I also haven't noticed a horrible lack of moderation either - or maybe that's just because I don't like, or expect, bans to be handed out left and right when any debate starts. I've also gotten warnings pretty consistently whenever I've stepped over the line from debating into insulting, for which I have to commend Amocholes for, because I think his approach is consistent, and not overly heavy handed (I know when I've said something I probably shouldn't have).

What I _have_ noticed however has been repeated attacks on MM, because he happens to be more conservative than the majority, *very *liberal, posters found on here, who seem to conflate his difference in viewpoint with a lack of moderation (which I find utterly ridiculous).

I'm not exactly sure what people want on here, but if it's a lot more moderation, in the form of thread locks and bans whenever a debate gets a little heated, NO. I've stopped posting on some of my favorite forums when the staff decided to unleash Mod-nazis onto places where debate went on, in the name of "calming things down," which effectively meant all the interesting discussion went out the window. PLEASE DO NOT RUIN THIS DAMN FORUM EVERYONE!

edit*
Also, as far as the administration goes, unless you actually donate money to keep it going, to echo another forum's administration, you don't have a foot to stand on... Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't had any experiences during my time here that would make me have such strong grievances...


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## diamondheart89

lonelyjew said:


> I only tend to hang out in a few places, so maybe I've missed something, I haven't noticed the terrible management that everyone seems to be agreeing on... I also haven't noticed a horrible lack of moderation either - or maybe that's just because I don't like, or expect, bans to be handed out left and right when any debate starts. I've also gotten warnings pretty consistently whenever I've stepped over the line from debating into insulting, for which I have to commend Amocholes for, because I think his approach is consistent, and not overly heavy handed (I know when I've said something I probably shouldn't have).
> 
> What I _have_ noticed however has been repeated attacks on MM, because he happens to be more conservative than the majority, *very *liberal, posters found on here, who seem to conflate his difference in viewpoint with a lack of moderation (which I find utterly ridiculous).
> 
> I'm not exactly sure what people want on here, but if it's a lot more moderation, in the form of thread locks and bans whenever a debate gets a little heated, NO. I've stopped posting on some of my favorite forums when the staff decided to unleash Mod-nazis onto places where debate went on, in the name of "calming things down," which effectively meant all the interesting discussion went out the window. PLEASE DO NOT RUIN THIS DAMN FORUM EVERYONE!
> 
> edit*
> Also, as far as the administration goes, unless you actually donate money to keep it going, to echo another forum's administration, you don't have a foot to stand on... Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't had any experiences during my time here that would make me have such strong grievances...


MM isn't even a mod anymore. He's a "mentor". 
_______________
What I find absurd is the lack of grammar skills in the OP. It kind of ruins the authority of the lecture.


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## lonelyjew

diamondheart89 said:


> MM isn't even a mod anymore. He's a "mentor".


I'm guessing that has a lot to do with the very unfair criticism I always saw him getting. If he was a far left liberal nut, who banned anyone who dared bring up "offensive" right wing ideas, I'm sure he would have fit in just fine.



diamondheart89 said:


> _______________
> What I find absurd is the lack of grammar skills in the OP. It kind of ruins the authority of the lecture.


WTF does that have to do with anything? This isn't some official press release. It's an announcement. Ugh... This community....


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## InfiniteBlaze

I'll just throw this out there.

I feel like moderators focus a little too much on users who repeatedly post in gender war threads and not enough on users who come in peoples' frustration threads and throw personal attacks at them. I noticed that if a hostile user guilty of numerous personal attacks has been here for a while, the moderation hesitates like hell to ban them *unless* they post in gender war threads regularly.

Individual users should get defended just as much as entire genders do on this site.


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## diamondheart89

lonelyjew said:


> WTF does that have to do with anything? This isn't some official press release. It's an announcement. Ugh... This community....


I expect better.  Don't get your panties in a bunch.


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## Just Lurking

lonelyjew said:


> Also, as far as the administration goes, unless you actually donate money to keep it going, to echo another forum's administration, you don't have a foot to stand on...


I have 10,490 "donations" to the site (the USERS make the site - not the administrators - without the users, the administators HAVE no site), and probably a few hundred page-clicks worth of "donations" every day. I voluntarily put 8-and-10-hour days into the site, keeping it afloat in 2012 (along with MM75, Ventura, Neptunus, JM, and melissa75) while the administrator was nowhere to be found (and not even so much as a 'thank you' on our way out the door; instead, nothing but grief).

On top of that, this site is my support system, and so too is it for a hell of a lot of other people. For me, it's the only support system I have other than my family. We all do remember that this is a *mental health support forum*, right?

So, do I have something to say when things are going wrong here? Oh, you better believe I do.

Maybe someone who spends all their time in the non-support portions of the forum may not notice many issues here, but all you need to do is browse the Board Feedback forum to see what's going on here (or more accurately, what ISN'T going on here).


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## typemismatch

I personally have never had any problems with the mods. I've had a couple of warnings and I have accepted them. I think this site runs just nicely. I also think that JL has a massive chip on his shoulder. JL seems to be stoking up antagonism against the mods/admin/whatever here, and I don't think it's appropriate. I don't like to single people out in this negative way but I think he has put his head above the parapet on this occasion. This seems to me to be either a case of nostalgia or ego. Both have their place, both have their home, both reside firmly in our minds. We do not need these feeling to cloud our judgement. We must embrace change because change is evercurrent, change is the air that we breath.


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## typemismatch

Just Lurking said:


> I have 10,490 "donations" to the site (the USERS make the site - not the administrators - without the users, the administators HAVE no site), and probably a few hundred page-clicks worth of "donations" every day. I voluntarily put 8-and-10-hour days into the site, keeping it afloat in 2012 (along with MM75, Ventura, Neptunus, JM, and melissa75) while the administrator was nowhere to be found (and not even so much as a 'thank you' on our way out the door; instead, nothing but grief).
> 
> On top of that, this site is my support system, and so too is it for a hell of a lot of other people. For me, it's the only support system I have other than my family. We all do remember that this is a *mental health support forum*, right?
> 
> So, do I have something to say when things are going wrong here? Oh, you better believe I do.
> 
> Maybe someone who spends all their time in the non-support portions of the forum may not notice many issues here, but all you need to do is browse the Board Feedback forum to see what's going on here (or more accurately, what ISN'T going on here).


Well, I posted at the same time as you. This makes me look a heartless *******. Nevermind, I stand by what I say. This may sound awful, but are you attributing too much credit to yourself for this site. Are you wanting too much credit. Are you needing change. Are you accepting change. This is what it is. This is what it is. This is what it is.


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## AJFA88

@SAS, JL made very valid points and if you are not willing to address his post here, at least do so privately....and i hope you do. 

It shouldn't come to a surprise that members are harassing moderators. It's a mental health forum, and members who populate this forum aren't necessarily easy to deal with due to their underlying mental illnesses and/or other conditions. It's a vulnerable population, and I'm not justifying members mistreating the mods, but telling members to stop harassing staff in a poor way to address the issue.

It is obvious that the mods will continue to deal with this type of abuse. Do mods receive some sort of training? are they being prepared well for the job? Is administration regularly checking their mods to assure they are doing well(mentally/emotionally)? Is administration active and involved in the forum to know how to address their concerns?


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## Just Lurking

typemismatch said:


> I also think that JL has a massive chip on his shoulder.


If you dealt with the bull**** that the former moderators were put through by this site's administration, so would you.

But no, I'm not looking for a fight. No, my interest lies with preserving the site and ensuring it remains the strong support system that it's been in the past.

If the administration had just listened to anything anyone has said at some point over the past 6-9 months, we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.


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## Just Lurking

typemismatch said:


> This may sound awful, but are you attributing too much credit to yourself for this site.


I just happen to be the one doing the talking. I don't care about credit. You can stop with the judgements now.


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## shyvr6

This probably should've been a locked announcement. I agree that JL probably does have a chip, but it's understandable. He probably should've made his own thread about it though instead of using this one since I've noticed the SAS account addressing threads in the Feedback forum today. I also agree about the harassment. I know a couple of recent banned users were making threads and posts about the mods and being pretty vile about it.


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## typemismatch

^i liked that post (for humorous effect)


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## Mersault

I am not sure on how many forums you all have been to apart from SAS, but this is for me the first time i have seen members accusing the actual admin of the forum. I have accused an admin on another forum, but there he was not top of the hierarchy, infact there was a tetrarchy of admins at that site. But here it seems that the admin is just one, and is in effect the owner of the SAS forum (unless i am wrong). And accusing the owner of the forum is a bit in bad taste, given that it belongs to him anyway.

Also some make the argument that SAS is not exactly a forum, since it is about health. This does not mean much though, since it is not a hospital or an asylum. It is just another forum on the internet. People come and go as they please. If they are too attached to it, that is their issue.

Granted that i (iirc) never have posted in the Support-part of the forum, i do not know anything about that part. But i am sure it is a very fine line to keep things going when people are posting about problems they find not easy to cope with anyway. In the vast majority of internet forums such threads would not even exist, and so it is good that they exist here, but again this does not mean any ideal condition can be maintained in regards to them.


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## creasy

lonelyjew said:


> I haven't noticed the terrible management that everyone seems to be agreeing on...


Because it's greatly exaggerated by people who are butthurt when they break the rules and get a slap on the wrist. Then they start shouting from the rooftops that the site is falling to pieces, and others jump on the bandwagon.

I will say that there does appear to be a lack of moderation at times, with obvious trolls and their threads staying up longer than they should, and maybe there is a problem with contacting the admin, I wouldn't know since I've never had a reason to do so.

Are anonymous mods a bad thing? Maybe. It hasn't been a problem for me, and frankly I don't see why it would be for anyone. If you're so invested in a single website that it's such a big deal, it could be a sign that you need to take a break.


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## enfield

#limmy4mod


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## Noca

Drew thinks that SAS is just a stock or a mutual fund that hes invested into that will just keep giving interest without having to do any work. This is sort of like the landlord who buys a property, rents it out, and doesn't do any maintenance or work on the property after purchasing it. They think that somehow their property is some investment that they can just leave on its own and that will continue making money indefinitely without any physical intervention.


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## lonelyjew

InfiniteBlaze said:


> and not enough on users who come in peoples' frustration threads and throw personal attacks at them.


I do go to the frustration section everyone once in a while, and sadly I've noticed this as well. IMO the frustration section is for a worry free release, and for sympathy/empathy. Maybe some constructive criticism would be ok, but I've also seen blatant attacks as well, which should not be tolerated.



diamondheart89 said:


> I expect better.  Don't get your panties in a bunch.


LOL fair enough. Funny how a little smiley can put things into perspective.



Just Lurking said:


> I have 10,490 "donations" to the site


You're in Ontario, so maybe by loud groan carried all the way over to your ears :roll.



Just Lurking said:


> I voluntarily put 8-and-10-hour days into the site, keeping it afloat in 2012 (along with MM75, Ventura, Neptunus, JM, and melissa75) while the administrator was nowhere to be found (and not even so much as a 'thank you' on our way out the door; instead, nothing but grief).


Were you a mod? I guess I really don't have too much to say because I admittedly don't know what was going on.



Just Lurking said:


> I
> On top of that, this site is my support system, and so too is it for a hell of a lot of other people. For me, it's the only support system I have other than my family. We all do remember that this is a *mental health support forum*, right?
> 
> So, do I have something to say when things are going wrong here? Oh, you better believe I do.


I understand, I relied on this site quite a bit as well when I first came on here, though the general "entitled" attitude that you seem to be displaying would make you seem unappreciative of the service the site is providing you.



Just Lurking said:


> I
> Maybe someone who spends all their time in the non-support portions of the forum may not notice many issues here, but all you need to do is browse the Board Feedback forum to see what's going on here (or more accurately, what ISN'T going on here).


I just checked the feedback section and didn't see anything that obviously stood out - if you want to expound on the problems you're alluding to, I'm all ears - and while I am not as prolific in checking out all the support sections as I used to be, I haven't noticed anything that made me take pause and think there's a serious problem. I guess some of the peope are saying that the chat is out of hand - I'm not on there, so again, I wouldn't know. Either way, I don't think it's possible to please everyone.


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## Amocholes

Drew,
Your posts today remind me of the previous owner. The threat of banning anyone who disagreed with the way he ran the board.

There are almost 125,000 registered members. 541 show as online right now. What this site needs is an administrator who will actively run and participate on the board. It does not need an administrator who makes an appearance once every month or so. There are only 2 active Mods who were recently upgraded to Admins. With the size of this board, you should have at least 20 Mods operating under strict guidelines and all major time zones. There are too many posts and posters for 2 volunteers to handle effectively. There were a few times in the past when MM75 and I were the only active Mods. We had years of experience but it was rough. We had nowhere near the membership that we have now.

The anonymity of the Mods has always been a contentious point. Who would you trust? The neighborhood cop that you see everyday or the secret police operating undercover? I understand the thought behind the original anonymity. You wanted to protect the Mods. That obviously hasn't worked.

Threads disparaging Mods by disgruntled posters goes with the territory. You once posted an article in the Mod forum that basically stated, "If everyone likes your Mods, then they're not doing the job." I was a Mod for over 8 years and banned a lot of people who violated the guidelines. I even had the temerity to ban members who had been around for years. I was called a Nazi and worse many times. I have had many threads created in my name that now reside in Storage. I know the job is tough. I know that a Mod has to develop a thick skin. In the past months, many of the people that I banned have been allowed to return. I bear them no ill will and some of them have actually matured since they were banned. I did occasionally, cause a few controversies but that is part of being human. It was not my intention to do so. When I was in the wrong I openly admitted it and made a public apology.

Don


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## Just Lurking

This whole thing can be summed up with:

*We need a more consistently attentive, communicative, and involved administrator.*

That's it. That is the *entirety* of *this site's issues* here in a nutshell.

If that was *all* that was said here, though, it would have been passed over and ignored and dismissed like everyone else who's posted about management issues over the past several months, and problems would continue going totally unnoticed, because the administrator is *so* uninvolved with the forum that they don't even realize what problems *exist*.

So, yes, I have made, here, some giant posts that some people may regard as chip-on-the-shoulder-irritated-nostalgia-ego-induced-RANTS, which is fine - whatever you want to call it - but I felt compelled to let it all out in response here because something needed to be said, so there it is.



lonelyjew said:


> I just checked the feedback section and didn't see anything that obviously stood out - if you want to expound on the problems you're alluding to, I'm all ears - and while I am not as prolific in checking out all the support sections as I used to be, I haven't noticed anything that made me take pause and think there's a serious problem. I guess some of the peope are saying that the chat is out of hand - I'm not on there, so again, I wouldn't know.


A lack of administrator involvement.

Here is another angle: Prior to today, the "SAS" account had made *12* posts in three months time (about half of them, junk posts testing emoticons). In that same amount of time, there have been over *150* threads created in the Board Feedback forum. Did all of them require admin attention? Certainly not. But did only 12 of them require it? Hmm...


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## lonelyjew

I suppose I just want to know what the major issues are. The board seems to work, it isn't overloaded with bots, I don't anyone who's breaking the rules in an over the top way, or mods who are blatantly abusing their powers, etc. If there aren't any major issues, why do we need a 24/7 administrator around to address every minor concern? Is it just a need to feel listened to?


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## Still Waters

Who is the owner of the site? The threads I've seen lately don't seem to be in the same "voice" as Drew or Penny?? Just a small aside,from what I understand,a mentor isn't necessarily a mod but MAY be a mod.


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## shyvr6

Amocholes said:


> With the size of this board, you should have at least 20 Mods


20 seems a bit much, but I do agree that there definitely needs to be more and in different time zones. I think 10 would work.


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## Milco

peril said:


> I hope JL's post don't get ignored this time.


Ignored? Nah.
Given the context it seems more likely to earn him a ban.
So.. yay...

I want to give Neo credit though. Not only has he (indirectly) made it known what his original account was, but he has also started posting in threads casually and shown personality. It really helps a lot.

Also, the currently active mods who were made admins aren't listed on the "Forum Leaders" page, so unless you know who they are, you can't contact them.
And being required to have an account in order to contact them about being wrongfully banned or wanting a requested ban reversed, while having it be against the rules to make a 2nd account so you can actually post anything.. That's just.. I can't think that's bee thought through.


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## lonelyjew

Amocholes said:


> With the size of this board, you should have at least 20 Mods operating under strict guidelines and all major time zones.


I'm curious - as someone who hasn't ever been a mod, is this just a volume issue? Do you guys go through every thread, or just wait for post reports? Would a possible solution to have "mod assistants" or "super-users" with limited mod abilities? Say editing posts and issuing warnings (not bans), and maybe locking threads (to be used against blatant violations more than "controversial" threads).


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## I Punt Puppies

lonelyjew said:


> I only tend to hang out in a few places, so maybe I've missed something, I haven't noticed the terrible management that everyone seems to be agreeing on... I also haven't noticed a horrible lack of moderation either - or maybe that's just because I don't like, or expect, bans to be handed out left and right when any debate starts. I've also gotten warnings pretty consistently whenever I've stepped over the line from debating into insulting, for which I have to commend Amocholes for, because I think his approach is consistent, and not overly heavy handed (I know when I've said something I probably shouldn't have).
> 
> What I _have_ noticed however has been repeated attacks on MM, because he happens to be more conservative than the majority, *very *liberal, posters found on here, who seem to conflate his difference in viewpoint with a lack of moderation (which I find utterly ridiculous).
> 
> Most of this. This site is run just fine. The people that don't like don't have to post as much. It's not their own personal play pin or anything. I'm not exactly sure what people want on here, but if it's a lot more moderation, in the form of thread locks and bans whenever a debate gets a little heated, NO. I've stopped posting on some of my favorite forums when the staff decided to unleash Mod-nazis onto places where debate went on, in the name of "calming things down," which effectively meant all the interesting discussion went out the window. PLEASE DO NOT RUIN THIS DAMN FORUM EVERYONE!
> 
> edit*
> Also, as far as the administration goes, unless you actually donate money to keep it going, to echo another forum's administration, you don't have a foot to stand on... Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't had any experiences during my time here that would make me have such strong grievances...


Pretty much all this. This site is run just fine. For the people that don't like it, it's not like this is their own personal play pen or anything. What do they want?


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## arnie

I Punt Puppies said:


> Pretty much all this. This site is run just fine. For the people that don't like it, it's not like this is their own personal play pen or anything. What do they want?


The site was much better back in 2012. Back then there was much less hostility on the forums, none of the constant gender wars, less personal attacks, friendly moderators that were actually online and you could talk to, and a general sense of community and support. Things really went downhill after all of the old mods were *replaced*. Now it's just a mess. :no


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## Ape in space

I don't think Drew is the administrator any more. The OP doesn't write at all like Drew used to. Also I remember a rumour a while ago that Drew was selling the site, so this might be a new administrator.

Anyway, if you are a new administrator, I think it would be a very good idea for you to consider some of the concerns raised on this thread. No one can fault you for things that happened before you took over. But there are legitimate concerns that people have, and showing more involvement with the operation of the site and addressing concerns would be a good way to build trust with the members here. Things like the fact that the mods aren't listed anywhere, or that they are on invisible mode so that we don't know how to get in touch with an active mod if we need them, and so on. Most of us just want this site to be a supportive and comfortable place; we're not trying to crucify you or anything like that. If you can show more involvement and some sincere steps to work on the members' concerns, they will be able to put to rest the sense of uncertainty that is plaguing them. Such actions would have a huge positive impact on so many of us who use this site as a tool to improve our lives. So please consider what we have said, not as an attack, but as a way we can mutually help each other improve the site.


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## I Punt Puppies

InfiniteBlaze said:


> I'll just throw this out there.
> 
> I feel like moderators focus a little too much on users who repeatedly post in gender war threads and not enough on users who come in peoples' frustration threads and throw personal attacks at them. I noticed that if a hostile user guilty of numerous personal attacks has been here for a while, the moderation hesitates like hell to ban them *unless* they post in gender war threads regularly.
> 
> Individual users should get defended just as much as entire genders do on this site.


Actually, this is pretty legit. Some deserve it (I.e. the ones that spam the same threads with different wording etc) but the out right flamers should be nixed.


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## Aphexfan

Ape in space said:


> I don't think Drew is the administrator any more. The OP doesn't write at all like Drew used to. Also I remember a rumour a while ago that Drew was selling the site, so this might be a new administrator.
> 
> Anyway, if you are a new administrator, I think it would be a very good idea for you to consider some of the concerns raised on this thread. No one can fault you for things that happened before you took over. But there are legitimate concerns that people have, and showing more involvement with the operation of the site and addressing concerns would be a good way to build trust with the members here. Things like the fact that the mods aren't listed anywhere, or that they are on invisible mode so that we don't know how to get in touch with an active mod if we need them, and so on. Most of us just want this site to be a supportive and comfortable place; we're not trying to crucify you or anything like that. If you can show more involvement and some sincere steps to work on the members' concerns, they will be able to put to rest the sense of uncertainty that is plaguing them. Such actions would have a huge positive impact on so many of us who use this site as a tool to improve our lives. So please consider what we have said, not as an attack, but as a way we can mutually help each other improve the site.


As far as I know Drew is still running the site. And an excellant post to boot!  The main issue for alot of people (like me) is that we simply want the owner of the site to be on more, more communicative, and to be one with the community. We want to feel like we're actually being heard and addressed when we have complaints rather than feeling like we're talking to a blank wall. There is still ALOT of resentment over how the admin rammed through the new mod system and there is still obviously a lot of bad blood and issues to be solved. But at the end of the day I just want someone who runs the site to be one who actually loves and cares about the site he is running, something I am not sure of under the current admin.


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## I Punt Puppies

arnie said:


> The site was much better back in 2012. Back then there was much less hostility on the forums, none of the constant gender wars, less personal attacks, friendly moderators that were actually online and you could talk to, and a general sense of community and support. Things really went downhill after all of the old mods were *replaced*. Now it's just a mess. :no


well i wouldn't know, i'm newish, but I like it so far.


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## Aphexfan

I Punt Puppies said:


> well i wouldn't know, i'm newish, but I like it so far.


Longgggg story short is that the admin rammed through the new mod system (what we currently have) despite SEVERE protests from the (then) current mods. All the mods quit in protest, the whole board blew up but the admin still pushed through despite everyone on the board being against the new rules. Im pretty sure someone else can go in to more detail, but it caused ALOT of bad blood between the mods and the admin.


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## I Punt Puppies

Aphexfan said:


> Longgggg story short is that the admin rammed through the new mod system (what we currently have) despite SEVERE protests from the (then) current mods. All the mods quit in protest, the whole board blew up but the admin still pushed through despite everyone on the board being against the new rules. Im pretty sure someone else can go in to more detail, but it caused ALOT of bad blood between the mods and the admin.


wait, you mean this site has no mods now?


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## Aphexfan

I Punt Puppies said:


> wait, you mean this site has no mods now?


Oh no this happened back in October I think? But yes after the mods quit...there where no mods for a bit :b


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## I Punt Puppies

Aphexfan said:


> Oh no this happened back in October I think? But yes after the mods quit...there where no mods for a bit :b


Wow, this site gets out of hand with only a few hours of no moderation, I couldn't possibly imagine weeks.


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## Jones

Thread closed. PM sent to SAS who can re-open it to address the points raised.


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