# Nice Guys Don't Finish Last: The Art of Manliness



## Sierra83 (Sep 24, 2007)

Just found this blog post and found it interesting... Guys, check it out...

http://artofmanliness.com/2008/09/28/nice-guys-dont-have-to-finish-last/


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

thanks.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

I bookmarked the page .


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

I just wanted to post before the HUGE FORUM ARGUMENT commences.

Interesting article, but I tend not to put stock in articles where women and men are summarized as a whole, such as "all women love this" and "all men need to do this".

And I do want the nice guys to finish first.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

All stuff I've heard before, but it's good advice. Thanks.


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## Madison_Rose (Feb 27, 2009)

Some of this advice isn't bad, like the bit about getting a cool skill or hobby, and being confident. Just remember that not all women are the same. Maybe a lot of women like an ambitious, high earning man, but there are also successful couples in which the woman earns the main wage and the man takes care of the children, cooks the dinner, fixes stuff around the house or even goes back to college.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

The only problem I have with this topic that gets discussed time and time again, are those who tell guys like us to be confident as if there's some kind of switch we can flip that will make us feel that way. 

Confidence comes from having positive experiences. When you have none, you're not going to be confident, and no, it cannot be faked.


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## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

PGVan said:


> Confidence comes from having positive experiences. When you have none, you're not going to be confident, and no, it cannot be faked.


Yeah, that's true. But doing exposure therapy actually does build confidence, as long as you're just focusing on whatever small (even tiny) goal you have at each step, and NOT the bigger picture (that part is kinda tricky). It is possible to do!

Although, I think I actually got overconfident, actually, and wound up thinking I could do anything. :roll


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## Madison_Rose (Feb 27, 2009)

PGVan said:


> The only problem I have with this topic that gets discussed time and time again, are those who tell guys like us to be confident as if there's some kind of switch we can flip that will make us feel that way.
> 
> Confidence comes from having positive experiences. When you have none, you're not going to be confident, and no, it cannot be faked.


Well, I know it's not easy, but he does give some advice on how to do it:



> Never act dumbfounded when she says yes to things like a second date or a kiss. Don't ramble on about how women like her never say yes to you, and how you weren't going to even approach her because you thought she was out of your league. Don't constantly express your worry that you might lose her.


and:


> If you're a little homely, never let on that you think so. If you're a little quirky, act like those quirks make you the coolest man in the room.


I think those bits are good advice.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

The nice guy is seriously being over generalized. I'm offended! Okay, I'm not really that offended, but this topic has been done to death and these solutions are extremely redundant.

The blog could be summed up with: 'Be supremely confident' lawl "supremely"


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

PGVan said:


> The only problem I have with this topic that gets discussed time and time again, are those who tell guys like us to be confident as if there's some kind of switch we can flip that will make us feel that way.
> 
> *Confidence comes from having positive experiences*. When you have none, you're not going to be confident, and no, it cannot be faked.


Yea.. just be confident. You know just reach for that button on the back of your left elbow and wham ! I'm a *THE* MAN !

Positive experiences. That's it. If someone tries 3 times and gets a reasonably long lasting girlfriend.. he will have confidence to try even 5 more times to get his next girlfriend.

However if someone else has tried 8 times with no success.. how can he* just be* confident ?

it just doesn't add up.


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## numero1 (Apr 7, 2009)

This is total bogus to me. Never has it worked in my life. I have a multitude of 'man skills' and I am not huge but I am not scrawny. I workout the necessary muscles for basketball since I play basketball a lot. I am very good at basketball and many have suggested that I play college ball. I am very confident in all of my abilities, but somehow women don't see that even when I make it obvious. I'm thinking that I'm just physically unattractive and no woman will ever like me. Dying alone seems like the perfect conclusion this this sad pathetic excuse for a life story. Whenever my friends and classmates talk about marriage I always give the same excuse: "I don't want to get married because I don't want to share my stuff" but that is completely b.s. because I don't want none of them to know that I just can't get any girls. I hide the fact that I have never had a girlfriend in my stories about how I only hook up with girls from clubs, etc.


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## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

Okay, this is for the naysayers...

I dropped out of college the first time around due to intense social anxiety, which had been growing since I was 13 or so - I didn't want to leave my apartment, couldn't handle walking through campus or sitting in a classroom or meeting the teachers eyes. I really felt like the ugliest, most vile creature in existence, and just wanted to die. But after a year of doing CBT and exposure therapy, I was able to hold down a job working around a bunch of people all day, get an apartment on my own, three women asked me out, and I am NOT good looking - think skinny computer nerd with glasses and boring clothes and hair. The one I liked the most, who was gorgeous, lasted for a year, before it started getting too serious for me. I'm telling you, CBT works. Confidence is really attractive to women. In pictures back then I think I looked like crap.

In fact, I was so confident I felt alien to myself. I didn't like it, so when I moved away I decided I'd be less confident so I could find a girl more my style. It didn't work!

Confidence builds on itself. You start with tiny goals and grow it from there. 

Your mileage may vary. You should at least give it a try though - don't just say it's impossible.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

confidence comes from successes and vice versa.


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## Paul (Sep 26, 2005)

Summary of article: nice guys don't finish last, socially anxious guys finish last. I was already aware of that, but thanks for rubbing it in.


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## Alone42Long (Apr 23, 2009)

LostPancake said:


> Yeah, that's true. But doing exposure therapy actually does build confidence, as long as you're just focusing on whatever small (even tiny) goal you have at each step, and NOT the bigger picture (that part is kinda tricky). It is possible to do!
> 
> Although, I think I actually got overconfident, actually, and wound up thinking I could do anything. :roll


You can dude! ' You can do anything you put your mind to ' ha ha

I know you've heard that a million times before...

A little bit of encouragement goes a long way for me. 
If I saw more of it in real life & not just books, I'd be straight.
It's hard to do everything by yourself indefinitely & stay encouraged.


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## RyanAdams (Aug 15, 2008)

It's kind of funny--the past couple of days I've been thinking about this alpha male/confidence thing and I see a lot of merit to it. So, I thought yeah this morning, I'll give it a shot by just thinking postive things about myself. Not two hours later there were some problems at work, I had an idea on how to fix it, I voiced it, the they made me look like an idiot (they love doing that one) and I had a panic attack (first one in a LONG while). It was kind of like nature got wind of my plan and immediately gave me the finger.


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## mountain5 (May 22, 2008)

Hoth said:


> Summary of article: nice guys don't finish last, socially anxious guys finish last. I was already aware of that, but thanks for rubbing it in.


That's pretty much it in a nutshell, isn't it?



Alone42Long said:


> A little bit of encouragement goes a long way for me.
> If I saw more of it in real life & not just books, I'd be straight.
> It's hard to do everything by yourself indefinitely & stay encouraged.


I agree with you, but when it comes down to it, no one really owes us anything.


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## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

Alone42Long said:


> You can dude! ' You can do anything you put your mind to ' ha ha
> 
> I know you've heard that a million times before...
> 
> ...


Yeah I heard that a lot growing up, but it usually made me feel worse, like oh, I must seem really pathetic for them to say that to me. :roll

I had a good therapist for the CBT - she was good at the unconditional positive regard part. Whenever I tried the techniques on my own later, it never worked as well. Either that or I was just putting myself into situations that were just over my head.

But yeah, it's tough to be your own support system. Especially if you have any kind of depression, which often goes along with SA.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Madison_Rose said:


> Well, I know it's not easy, but he does give some advice on how to do it:
> 
> and:
> 
> I think those bits are good advice.


I read through it...

It's all telling you to act. Not all of us can act.


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## leomouse (Dec 1, 2008)

ohh i know of a simmilar website for women http://theartofbeingfeminine.blogspot.com/


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

this is good.


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## nihlanth1 (Oct 24, 2008)

Blah blah blah..

Have heard it all before - and it doesn't help.

It is quite infuriating that there are so many articles that list the ways a man should improve himself, but there are no articles on how to find a 'nice' woman who would be a good match for a 'nice' man. (By 'nice' people I am talking about people who are content with a simple life and not ambitious. I am not talking about people who have kindness as a primary personality trait, just people who are content with being mellow and simple.)

Why aren't there articles that tell women how to behave around men and cater to men's expectations? *Why the f-ck should we modify our behaviors and not women?*

*
Why aren't there articles that tell women to act shy and vulnerable around men to appear to be more attractive to male's instincts?*

Why aren't there articles telling women not to wear ANY perfume, or not to wear ANY make-up? Makeup is a form of *fake* self-confidence because it allows a woman to 'lie' about her true physical appearance (it is not practical to wear make-up at home all the time).

At least in my eyes, any woman who wears make-up or high-heels is both insecure and arrogant at the same time. Basically, an unattractive spoiled tramp under all that plastic and chemicals.

To be quite honest, I think that articles like these just keep ruining it for men and women alike because it sets up incredibly narrow expectations. Just because something is based off of primal instinct doesn't make it right.

If it is morally right for a woman to like a confident man who has a big wallet or nice job, why isn't morally right for a man to murder his competitors? After all, the elimination of competitors is a primal instinct that is suppressed by our society's standards. It is a form of competition. (not that I agree with murder, Im just playing the devil's advocate).

It seems society has absolutely no problems with molding and socializing men (and women) into whatever personality type is the new fad of the decade. Back in the day it was chivalry or arranged marriages, in the sixties it was all about being nice, open and free spirited and fun, now it is all about being confident and financially secure. In the next twenty years the formula will be modified yet again based off of all the Hollywood garbage and propaganda that is spoon fed to children.

Toothpick-skinny models and boob-jobs are not attractive yet Hollywood says so!

It seems like desperate morons are buying this garbage.

Advice to fellow men: IF YOU REALLY HAVE SELF RESPECT AND CONFIDENCE DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO CHANGE OR MODIFY YOUR BEHAVIOR TO SOMETHING THAT IS UN-NATURAL TO YOU. YOU DO NOT NEED A WOMAN NOR ANYONE ELSE TO MAKE YOU HAPPY.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Good post nihlanth1. I feel the same level of frusteration over the same subject...

I remember when I was 18 I adopted the additude of being confident to attract women. I also did other things as compensation for my own insecurities. I can't really blame people who look for sources such as the article listed above (among others) to get a better understanding of something if they aren't sure of. After all, isn't it natural to want to gain information? For me, I had to be that nieve and gullible indivisual (not saying anyone is who reads the article) mainly because I didn't know how else to think or react when it came to women. I'm embarrassed to admit that I adopted the additude for a fit, but I also can't blame myself for not knowing any better. It's hard to know something for sure unless you've experienced enough factors to think differently.


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## Alone42Long (Apr 23, 2009)

I have the same feelings & frustrations nihlanth1 & understand where you are coming from.


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## mountain5 (May 22, 2008)

I don't feel like I have anything to contribute to these threads any more, but I keep coming back...

Yes, most dating advice you read will tell you to craft a certain persona for yourself. That's because people (like me) have a persona anyway, one that's really bad at attracting the opposite sex. If you don't want to meet women, or you're dead set on marrying the first woman who indicates attraction to you, you're free to "just be yourself" instead.

The idea is 50% faking it -- which I see as just taking risks, and engaging in conversations you would normally avoid - and 50% self-paced personal development, which is the more politically correct side of things. Again, if you don't want a female in your life, you're free to "just be yourself" instead.

I've had a lot of the kind of anger that's been expressed in other posts in the thread, but I've accepted that it's pointless to get angry when it's just the way the world works. I just have a lot of work to do, and I have no idea where it will take me or if I'll ever succeed at all.


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## Mr. Frostie (Nov 2, 2008)

Interesting blog. I think their concept of manliness is a little out of touch with the times... and extreme. I mean, they've got articles on how to wrestle bears and be like Frank Sinatra. WTF? But, some of the advice on grooming and old fashioned gentlemanly etiquette seems pretty good. I bookmarked it.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Wasn't it Einstein who said only a fool does the same thing over and over and expects different results?


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## nihlanth1 (Oct 24, 2008)

mountain5 said:


> I don't feel like I have anything to contribute to these threads any more, but I keep coming back...
> 
> Yes, most dating advice you read will tell you to craft a certain persona for yourself. That's because people (like me) have a persona anyway, one that's really bad at attracting the opposite sex. If you don't want to meet women, or you're dead set on marrying the first woman who indicates attraction to you, you're free to "just be yourself" instead.
> 
> ...


It is the way the world works because too many men think with their d-cks rather than their brains - so they end up playing right into women's manipulative hands which in turn, spoils women into thinking that they can make more and more unreasonable and one-sided demands and requirements for men to be in relationships with women.

The precipice of my anger is mostly directed at the men who sacrifice self-honor and principles just for some ***. Which is too many.


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

mountain5 said:


> I don't feel like I have anything to contribute to these threads any more, but I keep coming back...
> 
> Yes, most dating advice you read will tell you to craft a certain persona for yourself. That's because people (like me) have a persona anyway, one that's really bad at attracting the opposite sex. If you don't want to meet women, or you're dead set on marrying the first woman who indicates attraction to you, you're free to "just be yourself" instead.
> 
> ...


I'm a guy going through similar struggles. But I firmly believe that if you are yourself, it's when you are able to attract a woman. I just made a small victory. Sure I did it the "lame" way and posted an ad on the internet, but I just said what I truly wanted and everything came in the heart. It felt good when I said it because I didn't feel I hide anything and said in my ad I wasn't social but this is what is cool about me, and this is what I want. A girl responded, we traded pics and she wanted my number. I ended up talking to her for about 2 hours with her just about everything, I thought she was really cool and intriguing. I'm also really proud that I didn't blemish anything, overtly brag and I was honest and straight up the whole time. That's freedom baby and that's the way I want to live my life.

Don't give up hope and believe in yourself. You are capable of attraction, you just start with being honest with yourself about who you are.


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## Stanley (May 11, 2007)

Everything they said in that post is bullsh*t! Nice guys DO finish last!
You know how I know? Because I'm not a nice guy and I never finish last!!! :lol


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

I have nothing to add because the whole "nice guy complex" that men are convinced exists tends to upset me with the implications about women, haven't read the thread to be honest.

But I really like that website, The Art of Manliness. I liked that article too.


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## bear (Mar 7, 2009)

bezoomny said:


> I have nothing to add because the whole "nice guy complex" that men are convinced exists tends to upset me with the implications about women, haven't read the thread to be honest.
> 
> But I really like that website, The Art of Manliness. I liked that article too.


What's the 'nice guy complex' about? and what are the implications towards women you don't like?

If you don't mind me asking, just curious...


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

bear said:


> What's the 'nice guy complex' about? and what are the implications towards women you don't like?
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, just curious...


People who believe in the "nice guy complex" usually believe that women don't want to date or be in a relationship with nice men. This idea that *all women* don't date "nice guys" (99% the "nice guy" means the man himself) is 1. stupid, 2. untrue, and 3. quick to descend into rampant misogyny where the men just ramble on and on about how horrible women are. It assumes that women are wildly different from men, more like a different sort of animal than just a different gender. It classes women as a whole and then makes blanket statements about them.

And we've had this discussion about ten times already on this forum. It got old quick.


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## bear (Mar 7, 2009)

bezoomny said:


> People who believe in the "nice guy complex" usually believe that women don't want to date or be in a relationship with nice men. This idea that *all women* don't date "nice guys" (99% the "nice guy" means the man himself) is 1. stupid, 2. untrue, and 3. quick to descend into rampant misogyny where the men just ramble on and on about how horrible women are. It assumes that women are wildly different from men, more like a different sort of animal than just a different gender. It classes women as a whole and then makes blanket statements about them.
> 
> And we've had this discussion about ten times already on this forum. It got old quick.


ahh okay. I had just never heard it phrased like that. Thanks


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> I'm a guy going through similar struggles. But I firmly believe that if you are yourself, it's when you are able to attract a woman. I just made a small victory. Sure I did it the "lame" way and posted an ad on the internet, but I just said what I truly wanted and everything came in the heart. It felt good when I said it because I didn't feel I hide anything and said in my ad I wasn't social but this is what is cool about me, and this is what I want. A girl responded, we traded pics and she wanted my number. I ended up talking to her for about 2 hours with her just about everything, I thought she was really cool and intriguing. I'm also really proud that I didn't blemish anything, overtly brag and I was honest and straight up the whole time. That's freedom baby and that's the way I want to live my life.
> 
> Don't give up hope and believe in yourself. You are capable of attraction, you just start with being honest with yourself about who you are.


This is encouraging. I totally agree with you though. I'm going to be 18 this year. And I am not going to spend the rest of my adult life trying to be other men. I will be the man that logically develops from the type of boy I am. -- After all, why should I pretend to have an avid interest in woodwork and soccer, when I really prefer playing guitar, drawing and painting ?

Nobody is going to ever give me sh!t about what a "*manly hobby*" is. Not if he still wants his left arm still attached, that is :mum


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

WintersTale said:


> Wasn't it Einstein who said only a fool does the same thing over and over and expects different results?


Yes, Insanity would be doing the same thing and expecting different results. I think Im better getting my own experience guide me into what works or not.


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

VIncymon said:


> This is encouraging. I totally agree with you though. I'm going to be 18 this year. And I am not going to spend the rest of my adult life trying to be other men. I will be the man that logically develops from the type of boy I am. -- After all, why should I pretend to have an avid interest in woodwork and soccer, when I really prefer playing guitar, drawing and painting ?
> 
> Nobody is going to ever give me sh!t about what a "*manly hobby*" is. Not if he still wants his left arm still attached, that is :mum


Dude, there's a lot of ladies that'll go for a guy like you. You have to be who you are, otherwise you won't be happy. Pretending is a waste of energy.


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## SomethingTangible (May 8, 2009)

VIncymon said:


> This is encouraging. I totally agree with you though. I'm going to be 18 this year. And I am not going to spend the rest of my adult life trying to be other men. I will be the man that logically develops from the type of boy I am. -- After all, why should I pretend to have an avid interest in woodwork and soccer, when I really prefer playing guitar, drawing and painting ?
> 
> Nobody is going to ever give me sh!t about what a "*manly hobby*" is. Not if he still wants his left arm still attached, that is :mum


I think men who have a creative side are FAR MORE desired by women then manly soccer players or what have you. Go get em' tiger.


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## Mr. Frostie (Nov 2, 2008)

VIncymon said:


> I really prefer playing guitar, drawing and painting ?
> 
> Nobody is going to ever give me sh!t about what a "*manly hobby*" is.


If you said you were into ballet and sewing, I might question your manliness, but those are all manly hobbies. How many master female painters and draughtsmen can you name? There are very few.


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## Seigfried22 (Feb 24, 2009)

The reason people say "nice guys finish last" and the like is because they view a "nice guy" as weak, a pushover, someone orbiting and slobbering over a women not because they are not genuine in there interest in her, but cling to a (usually) false hope that she will have sex with him out of pity.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

What if a guy is just geniunely nice, without expecting things in return? Is that seen as weak?


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## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

WintersTale said:


> What if a guy is just geniunely nice, without expecting things in return? Is that seen as weak?


From my experience, yes, unless that person is also genuinely nice, in which case it's good to be able to interact with someone like yourself. I think other people aren't used to niceness and think the person is out to get something from them, or think they're weak.

On the other hand, being nice is something I learned in childhood, and got a lot of positive reinforcement for it, so I always expected something in return - more kindness back! But most people don't return it, cause they weren't brought up that way, and I remember being really confused by people growing up.

My favorite cartoon when I was a kid was "Casper the Friendly Ghost", which kind of says something about me, lol.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

Seigfried22 said:


> The reason people say "nice guys finish last" and the like is because they view a "nice guy" as weak, a pushover, someone orbiting and slobbering over a women not because they are not genuine in there interest in her, but cling to a (usually) false hope that she will have sex with him out of pity.


Agreed. Just for example, a woman can tell the difference between when a guy is talking to her just to have sex eventually versus a guy who's genuinely interested and just trying to get to know her. Nothing wrong with trying to get to know someone. However, the way it comes across is, in certain guys' minds, they say, "If I do this, will you have sex with me??? If I act a certain way, will you do it? If I jump up three times and spin around, will you do it?" And the girls will say, "No. I'd prefer not to." Then he'll say, "You won't? Okay, either you will... or there's something wrong with you because I am not attractive to you. I'm not attractive to you. Why not?! You wench!!" and yada yada yada.. Yeah..


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

I found very little of it to be valuable and most of it to be farcical nonsense. Be your own man. Don't let society tell you what to be.


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

sanria22 said:


> Agreed. Just for example, a woman can tell the difference between when a guy is talking to her just to have sex eventually versus a guy who's genuinely interested and just trying to get to know her. Nothing wrong with trying to get to know someone. However, the way it comes across is, in certain guys' minds, they say, "If I do this, will you have sex with me??? If I act a certain way, will you do it? If I jump up three times and spin around, will you do it?" And the girls will say, "No. I'd prefer not to." Then he'll say, "You won't? Okay, either you will... or there's something wrong with you because I am not attractive to you. I'm not attractive to you. Why not?! You wench!!" and yada yada yada.. Yeah..


Well if you act like that, you won't get laid. You gotta counter it with "ok, fine, no big deal." Then the opposite starts to happens and before you know it, bam. Ladies don't want to be known as ****s, but if you show you are genuine without whining about it, a lady who likes you will like that.

I had a major victory today. The date went real well, she a wonderful lady who was so deviant I couldn't resist. To sum it up, grand slam, wam bam, thank you mam.


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