# How I drastically reduced my anxiety.



## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

Hello, everyone. I haven't posted here in a while but just wanted to share the progress I've made this past year. Basically I suffered from severe social phobia to the point where I was a shut-in for 4 years. I won't go into details but I've posted here about my history so if you're interested you can check my posts. Anyway, I want to focus on the positive, that is how I overcame my debilitating anxiety. Hopefully, I can inspire some of you but at the least, I want to give a different perspective on this condition we all share.

So basically, I went through 5 years of anxiety, 2 years of medications and CBT and nothing was really working. There was a great divide between the external world and myself so nothing was going through.Until, I realized I had to take the initiative myself, really get to the crux of the matter. What is the nature of my sufferings, the cause and meaning of anxiety? In a way, it was lot of soul-searching, really trying to know and understand myself. So what I did was read. I READ A LOT. I wouldn't be exaggerating if I said I've had something of an enlightening/cathartic experience with reading this year. Basically, I read a lot of philosophy, psychology, literature even political science; everything that was directly or indirectly related to my condition. I started with Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung and the whole psycho-dynamic approach to psychology. Freud's " Civilization and it's Discontents" and " Totem and Taboo" were tremendously inspirational in particular helping me understand reality and the human psyche and the historic relationship between them. Similarly, reading philosophy like the works of Soren Kierkegaard helped me see how deeply rooted anxiety is in the human condition and how it extends to all of humanity. Also, I have an ugly history with authority and I realized conflicts between the self/ego and the norms/values internalized from authority or in Freud's term "the superego" is precisely the reason for my hatred for authority. Nietzsche was greatly helpful in building my self-confidence in this regard.

On a practical level, what happened was my perception changed; perception of myself and everything around me. Perception really is a big part of the self and knowing and understanding myself helped me change it. The human mind can be exceptionally weak but also really powerful; it all depends on how you perceive things. I'm sure everyone is familiar with that guy/girl who is not so good-looking but acts and presents themselves like they are the most beautiful/important person in the world. The mind can make you feel like the most confident person in the world or the most loathsome. I couldn't even make eye contact with my family members just last year and today I feel really confident walking around town. My previous state really feels like an illusion.

So my advice for everyone is: take the initiative, read, be informed, ask and share information with others. Certain books helped me because I could relate my experiences with them; they might not be helpful for you but there's a whole lot of literature on anxiety, depression and so on that might at least help you understand. 
I am not discrediting medication, CBT or anything else with this post; different thing work for different people. But one thing I realized in my experience with anxiety is that knowledge really is power. Ignorance is the real enemy, not fear, anxiety or even death. I'll just leave this quote by Henry Thoreau as I close this post. Thanks for letting me share. Best wishes.

"“It is remarkable how long men will believe in the bottomlessness of a pond without taking the trouble to sound it.”


P.S. Feel free to contact me if you want to talk about anything.


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## Anxiolytic (Nov 20, 2014)

lovehatehero said:


> Hello, everyone. I haven't posted here in a while but just wanted to share the progress I've made this past year. Basically I suffered from severe social phobia to the point where I was a shut-in for 4 years. I won't go into details but I've posted here about my history so if you're interested you can check my posts. Anyway, I want to focus on the positive, that is how I overcame my debilitating anxiety. Hopefully, I can inspire some of you but at the least, I want to give a different perspective on this condition we all share.
> 
> So basically, I went through 5 years of anxiety, 2 years of medications and CBT and nothing was really working. There was a great divide between the external world and myself so nothing was going through.Until, I realized I had to take the initiative myself, really get to the crux of the matter. What is the nature of my sufferings, the cause and meaning of anxiety? In a way, it was lot of soul-searching, really trying to know and understand myself. So what I did was read. I READ A LOT. I wouldn't be exaggerating if I said I've had something of an enlightening/cathartic experience with reading this year. Basically, I read a lot of philosophy, psychology, literature even political science; everything that was directly or indirectly related to my condition. I started with Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung and the whole psycho-dynamic approach to psychology. Freud's " Civilization and it's Discontents" and " Totem and Taboo" were tremendously inspirational in particular helping me understand reality and the human psyche and the historic relationship between them. Similarly, reading philosophy like the works of Soren Kierkegaard helped me see how deeply rooted anxiety is in the human condition and how it extends to all of humanity. Also, I have an ugly history with authority and I realized conflicts between the self/ego and the norms/values internalized from authority or in Freud's term "the superego" is precisely the reason for my hatred for authority. Nietzsche was greatly helpful in building my self-confidence in this regard.
> 
> ...


Great story! Thank you for taking the time to come back to SAS and share it with us all. I am interested in discussing your path to recovery in greater detail. I am so close to being able to live comfortably again. Please read my thread titled, "SA reflex", it will give you a gander into my scenario. Like you, I had found eye contact with family even hard, I'd blush around family, even blush by myself!!! I am slightly better than that now thankfully, but am still struggling daily. I am trying to read, exercise, and eat healthier, but apathy deters me frequently...any advice would be appreciated.

It actually makes sense about the eye contact and uncomfortableness around family because of the inescapable desire to function properly. You want to feel okay and you don't therefore it's hard to be comfortable around ANYONE, including yourself at times!


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

Hey. I read your threads, sorry to hear what you're going through. Personally I've never had such physical symptoms so I can't really give much input on your situation. My anxiety was a result of negative self-perception exacerbated by BDD and earlier bouts of depression. So it is purely psychical, I don't know if such a distinction between psychical and physiological anxiety even exists. But it is certainly interesting and I would love to talk to you about it. About the eye contact, I certainly had difficulties at first. I would act a certain way but would always be conscious that I was acting inappropriately. But analyzing how people respond to me reinforced that I was thinking too much about it, that there was really nothing to it. Once I felt that people didn't give too much thought into these things, I stopped as well. I think the"normal" people are so well adjusted to reality is because they lack the thought processes and reflections that we are constantly prone to. Us neurotics live the life of the mind if you will. And thus the higher form of self consciousness and greater valuation of all things related to the psyche, imagination and so on. Once I realized this I was able to adapt easily. So my illness has been a purely psychical one. I deal with apathy as well but with me it's much more in a nihilistic sense. Although my anxiety has largely disappeared my self consciousness has intensified at the same time that my anxiety has transformed from anxiety of all things external to an internal fear of death. So apathy has naturally resulted from that. Sorry I don't really have much advice in that regard but I'd love to talk about it. Take care.


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## VanDamme (Jun 8, 2004)

Congrats on your progress and finding what you needed! 

My situation was different (more about fear response and relatively speaking some worries). But the common aspect is that I also kept looking and searching for something that could work ... and found it. 

It's amazing how easy it is do a lot of things that used to have so much extra issues added to them. Almost like being "normal".


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

Yes. Sometimes it really feels as easy as flipping a switch. But I think taking the initiative is indispensable for that to happen. Really happy to hear about your success. Keep it up.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

Is it possible that the CBT started to kick in when you took initiative? How did you deal with anxiety when you first started leaving the house? What kind of coping mechanisms did you use?


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## JohnDoe26 (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks for sharing your journey.



lovehatehero said:


> it all depends on how you perceive things.


I think you hit the nail right on the head there. I've been reading books on theology, philosophy and psychology as well, and the knowledge contained in them has helped me shape how I perceive the world around me to where that it has decreased my anxiety somewhat.


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

AngelClare said:


> Is it possible that the CBT started to kick in when you took initiative? How did you deal with anxiety when you first started leaving the house? What kind of coping mechanisms did you use?


No, actually I stopped CBT and meds in 2012 so my anxiety became even more severe after that. I decided I wasn't going back to therapy as there was this big disconnect, whatever the therapist said or made me do wasnt being registered at all, it all just went over my head. The meds were making me lethargic and being housebound made that even worse. And then I figured I had to look for a way out myself, take matters into my own hand. The years prior to that were some of the darkest days of my life. The realization or should I say revelation was a relatively slow process but once my perception had substantially changed, I just got up early one day and went out for a walk. The first few days I had to keep reinforcing what I had realized earlier and observing if what I had learned actually held true. Slowly I became well adjusted to the outer world. The distinction between mind and matter is an old concept in philosophy. Before, overvaluation of my mind and thoughts would influence my interactions with reality in a negative way. I realized this must be kept distinct in that like the "normals" all I had to was not think and just like that both my self consciousness and anxiety stopped manifesting in outer reality. Like I said before, my anxiety is now strictly confined to when I'm alone that is when Im most conscious.


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

JohnDoe26 said:


> Thanks for sharing your journey.
> 
> I think you hit the nail right on the head there. I've been reading books on theology, philosophy and psychology as well, and the knowledge contained in them has helped me shape how I perceive the world around me to where that it has decreased my anxiety somewhat.


Awesome. Really glad to hear that. Knowledge especially of philospohy and psychology has literally been a savior to me. There is so much the human mind doesn't know.


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## VanDamme (Jun 8, 2004)

lovehatehero said:


> Yes. Sometimes it really feels as easy as flipping a switch. But I think taking the initiative is indispensable for that to happen. Really happy to hear about your success. Keep it up.


Thanks! 

Actually, in my case initiative wasn't an issue. It was more about finding information/techniques that I could do. Sure, nowadays especially with the internet it's a lot easier, but a few decades ago it was harder.


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## MargueriteShop (Jul 17, 2015)

thanks for that post. I wonder if that would work for me. you sound so mature about it. I in contrast had some SA growing up due to a disability. and a few years back when I stopped drinking, my SA reigned its' ugly head again. I too had problems looking at family and friends. I tried therapy and medications, and I didn't really feel any better, although certain things did get better, like, I wore better outfits, and had my nails done with frequency. when I stopped the meds, my grooming also slacked off and I don't know what that is about. some things happened that I won't go into here, but that sent me into panic attacks. I began having panic attacks that kept me from enjoying socializing. i'll just say that there was a group of people that commit a hate-crime against me and there was some sexual abuse as well. I almost died, and so I think the panic attacks were normal reaction to what had happened, but the therapy wasn't working to help me. and i'll be honest, there were some racial issues involved as well. and I still can't find any racial support groups, although that should not be really what is wrong, although it is. I wonder what freud would say. maybe he would say that I need to free the libido. I really have never studied freud as I was not supposed to 'know' him better than a family member who was the 'right' race and a pseudo psychologist. anyway, I do know of his works. but I was reading spiritual philosophy like anselm. he is okay. but I read so much I can barely remember anything unless it is particulary important to my work. I think philosophy a lot. and like you, I think it helped save my life. right now though I am trying to go back to school, another way to save my life. the degree that I am pursuing is going to help my family stay together I think. I just liked how you said that you recognized how you weren't getting better and needed something else. I did that too, and I left my marriage, and moved into this area where I live, and then that hatecrime took place, and I was alone and scared. I still have attacks now, and there doesn't seem to be anyone in the area who is mature enough to want to make it stop. even the therapists participated, and I mean, whoa, gleefully gossiped and slandered, and so forth. that makes me feel hopeless when I see people in that profession hatecriming their clients that way, or, just residents in the area whom they are envious of I think. so, I am grateful that there is this forum to come and share about SA. I am not sure what to do in relation to my sitch. I wanted to go to paris, but now that idea is out. I thought of going there for work and to meet new people, but now that is like a joke right. I also have no business going there, I hear my mother saying. mom. she was so controlling it was funny. anyway, so, and yes, she too participates in the hatecriming. I have met a couple of people who don't do it. they stood by me although we don't know each other well. and I pray a lot for things to get better. not be put down this way like an old dog in a shelter. I hate that. anyway, I gotta get going to something. you guys were great and take care.


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## kaos (Nov 15, 2003)

lovehatehero said:


> No, actually I stopped CBT and meds in 2012 so my anxiety became even more severe after that. I decided I wasn't going back to therapy as there was this big disconnect, whatever the therapist said or made me do wasnt being registered at all, it all just went over my head. The meds were making me lethargic and being housebound made that even worse. And then I figured I had to look for a way out myself, take matters into my own hand. The years prior to that were some of the darkest days of my life. The realization or should I say revelation was a relatively slow process but once my perception had substantially changed, I just got up early one day and went out for a walk. The first few days I had to keep reinforcing what I had realized earlier and observing if what I had learned actually held true. Slowly I became well adjusted to the outer world. The distinction between mind and matter is an old concept in philosophy. Before, overvaluation of my mind and thoughts would influence my interactions with reality in a negative way. I realized this must be kept distinct in that like the "normals" all I had to was not think and just like that both my self consciousness and anxiety stopped manifesting in outer reality. Like I said before, my anxiety is now strictly confined to when I'm alone that is when Im most conscious.


Kudos and thanks for sharing. What's weird is that I've a friend that has gone through the exact same thing. That fear of death is now haunting him with a random impact on his life and he can't be alone at all. Says he feels like he is nothing when alone. But his SA seems to be gone


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

MargueriteShop said:


> thanks for that post. I wonder if that would work for me. you sound so mature about it. I in contrast had some SA growing up due to a disability. and a few years back when I stopped drinking, my SA reigned its' ugly head again. I too had problems looking at family and friends. I tried therapy and medications, and I didn't really feel any better, although certain things did get better, like, I wore better outfits, and had my nails done with frequency. when I stopped the meds, my grooming also slacked off and I don't know what that is about. some things happened that I won't go into here, but that sent me into panic attacks. I began having panic attacks that kept me from enjoying socializing. i'll just say that there was a group of people that commit a hate-crime against me and there was some sexual abuse as well. I almost died, and so I think the panic attacks were normal reaction to what had happened, but the therapy wasn't working to help me. and i'll be honest, there were some racial issues involved as well. and I still can't find any racial support groups, although that should not be really what is wrong, although it is. I wonder what freud would say. maybe he would say that I need to free the libido. I really have never studied freud as I was not supposed to 'know' him better than a family member who was the 'right' race and a pseudo psychologist. anyway, I do know of his works. but I was reading spiritual philosophy like anselm. he is okay. but I read so much I can barely remember anything unless it is particulary important to my work. I think philosophy a lot. and like you, I think it helped save my life. right now though I am trying to go back to school, another way to save my life. the degree that I am pursuing is going to help my family stay together I think. I just liked how you said that you recognized how you weren't getting better and needed something else. I did that too, and I left my marriage, and moved into this area where I live, and then that hatecrime took place, and I was alone and scared. I still have attacks now, and there doesn't seem to be anyone in the area who is mature enough to want to make it stop. even the therapists participated, and I mean, whoa, gleefully gossiped and slandered, and so forth. that makes me feel hopeless when I see people in that profession hatecriming their clients that way, or, just residents in the area whom they are envious of I think. so, I am grateful that there is this forum to come and share about SA. I am not sure what to do in relation to my sitch. I wanted to go to paris, but now that idea is out. I thought of going there for work and to meet new people, but now that is like a joke right. I also have no business going there, I hear my mother saying. mom. she was so controlling it was funny. anyway, so, and yes, she too participates in the hatecriming. I have met a couple of people who don't do it. they stood by me although we don't know each other well. and I pray a lot for things to get better. not be put down this way like an old dog in a shelter. I hate that. anyway, I gotta get going to something. you guys were great and take care.


Hey, sorry to hear what you're going through. The part about the hate crimes sound terrible, that people would actually do that. But are you sure the therapists were involved as well? Or could you be looking too much into it? Because I can say from experience that your perception can be extremely distorted when you're dealing with anxiety. It sounds like you've been through a trauma, that first experience you mentioned and that would be enough to severely damage your self/ego. The ego and perceptions seem to have a connection in that the ego affects and shapes your perceptions and vice-versa. I can relate to this because sometimes when I'm being self-conscious, I become specially sensitive and defensive if something is threatening my ego. It's very regular in Body Dysmorphic Disorders for the ego to at first experience a traumatic event and as a result for it to constantly enforce a negative self-perception. A weak ego strength is engendered in many mental illnesses. Anyways, the hate crimes sound like a police matter. At the very least, I would suggest you to temporarily move to some place where you feel safe and comfortable and can look into some reliable therapists. And after that honestly, Paris doesn't sound bad at all. If you want to pursue it and feel like you're up to it why not. Personally, I've always wanted to move to Germany and only a year ago I would have laughed at that idea but now it's a definite possibility. Good luck and best wishes.


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

kaos said:


> Kudos and thanks for sharing. What's weird is that I've a friend that has gone through the exact same thing. That fear of death is now haunting him with a random impact on his life and he can't be alone at all. Says he feels like he is nothing when alone. But his SA seems to be gone


Yes, I can't help but be convinced that anxiety is rooted in the human condition where of course death and the fear resulting from it plays a very prominent role. If fear of the unknowable nature of death has resulted in the formation of taboos and subsequently state laws as Freud theorizes, then it seems natural that as civilization evolves, anxiety and fear of death should correlate in some way. That is if we are to believe that society and civilization and the norms and values pertaining to it was something forced upon the primitive man. It would make sense that anxiety results from the guilt of transgressing civilized norms and values. Social anxiety then becomes just a term which is actually a regression of the modern civilized man into a primitiveness and his anxiety is just a sublimated form of an existential fear of death. The outer facade, the externally manifest anxiety reveals when overcome, a higher degree of consciousness of the fear of death. This is how I've understood anxiety but more importantly experienced it. I agree it's all very weird but definitely interesting.


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## Cassoulet94 (Apr 3, 2014)

lovehatehero said:


> Hello, everyone. I haven't posted here in a while but just wanted to share the progress I've made this past year. Basically I suffered from severe social phobia to the point where I was a shut-in for 4 years. I won't go into details but I've posted here about my history so if you're interested you can check my posts. Anyway, I want to focus on the positive, that is how I overcame my debilitating anxiety. Hopefully, I can inspire some of you but at the least, I want to give a different perspective on this condition we all share.
> 
> So basically, I went through 5 years of anxiety, 2 years of medications and CBT and nothing was really working. There was a great divide between the external world and myself so nothing was going through.Until, I realized I had to take the initiative myself, really get to the crux of the matter. What is the nature of my sufferings, the cause and meaning of anxiety? In a way, it was lot of soul-searching, really trying to know and understand myself. So what I did was read. I READ A LOT. I wouldn't be exaggerating if I said I've had something of an enlightening/cathartic experience with reading this year. Basically, I read a lot of philosophy, psychology, literature even political science; everything that was directly or indirectly related to my condition. I started with Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung and the whole psycho-dynamic approach to psychology. Freud's " Civilization and it's Discontents" and " Totem and Taboo" were tremendously inspirational in particular helping me understand reality and the human psyche and the historic relationship between them. Similarly, reading philosophy like the works of Soren Kierkegaard helped me see how deeply rooted anxiety is in the human condition and how it extends to all of humanity. Also, I have an ugly history with authority and I realized conflicts between the self/ego and the norms/values internalized from authority or in Freud's term "the superego" is precisely the reason for my hatred for authority. Nietzsche was greatly helpful in building my self-confidence in this regard.
> 
> ...


Aah very interesting, we have the same age and followed, it seems, rather similar paths.

I have also try CBT. It was a disappointment, not because I think that the therapy in itself is useless, but because the psychiatrists I saw, despite their formation, had a very superficial approach and I felt they really had little knowledge about what was really useful in CBT, at least to help someone in my case.

Medication was of help, but certainly not a miracle cure.

So yeah, knowledge is the key. I also read a lot, books or online. And like you I tended and still tend to read texts in which I feel I can find things related to my condition, knowledge I can use to change my perspective, to build my identity or, more broadly, my reality.

For that reason, among others, I am very interested in philosophy, psychology and literature (as most great pieces of literature have psychological and philosophical dimensions), but also in sociology and political science.

Some of my favorite philosophers are Sartre, Camus (he is more famous for his novels but he has written some good philosophy) and Marc Aurel. I also found very interesting philosophical and psychological aspects in Buddhism, even if I am agnostic.

There are also some good books about depression and social anxiety but the problem is that there are so many books on the topic, and so many are of very little interest (money money !), that it is hard to find the good ones. What I like about great authors is that they are usually very intelligent people, so even when their work is not mainly about psychology or philosophy, you find very interesting things related to it in their words.

Freud wrote very interesting things but I found that some parts of his work were really outdated and that there was little useful and relevant elements related to social anxiety.

Basically, what really allowed me to get rid of my social anxiety was gaining knowledge, but maybe more importantly a deep reflection process about myself, to spot what was problematic, was were the underlying mechanisms of my social anxiety and of my depression.

It is funny because you say that CBT was not for you, but what is CBT ? It is learning to replace the thought patterns that make you unhappy and with others, in order to change your perceptions. That is actually what you did.

For me, the drawback of making a CBT with a practitioner is that it is often too shallow and artificial, as what is really fundamental to change your thoughts is to chose new ones that you see as relevant. Sometimes, when you read a great book or when you think deeply, your find something that strikes you as very true and that has the potential to change the way you see yourself and the world. Then you can write this thought, or just think a lot about it, including in your everyday life, so that you integrate it and it changes your perception, it changes your reality. That is what should ideally be CBT.

Yes knowledge is power and ignorance is an enemy. Social anxiety is also one, since you are not social anxious because you know less than others. Also, even if practice without knowledge is useless, it is still important to expose yourself, so you can really experience this "new reality" you are building, see what is relevant and what is not and integrate the former.

But the problem is that knowledge is really useful when you have the necessary abilities to use it in a productive way. It may sounds mean but I think that a lot of people have not these abilities. Of course a lot of them have them so it is still a good idea to share like you did


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

Cassoulet94 said:


> Aah very interesting, we have the same age and followed, it seems, rather similar paths.
> 
> I have also try CBT. It was a disappointment, not because I think that the therapy in itself is useless, but because the psychiatrists I saw, despite their formation, had a very superficial approach and I felt they really had little knowledge about what was really useful in CBT, at least to help someone in my case.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing. Your story makes me really glad. Because one of the things that I struggled most with my anxiety was alienation; a feeling of not understanding who or what I was and therefore not belonging. But as I started reading, I gradually realized that I was actually not so different from others at all and that there were actually people, at first fictional but later real as well that I could relate to. I started with literature also; Camus' The Stranger but more importantly Dostoevsky's Notes from the Underground which so to speak put me on the path to self-realization. Notes was so influential; something I could never have imagined that a Russian novelist writing 150 years before could create a fictional character that I could relate to in entirety and here I was feeling like an alien. This assured me that the physical as well as psychical constitution of humans is the same, that just imbalances and distortions makes you perceive things differently. So yeah, it makes me really glad now that there are other real people who have gone through similar things.
I agree that the mass market books on psychology and generally are of little value but I think along with literature that have tremendous philosophical and psychological depth like that of Dostoevsky for example, just a general idea of literature in psychology and research/academic papers on various topics can be really helpful in getting information. Like the recent paper about how psychotherapy is 25% less effective than previously thought. Again, not discrediting therapy but people must be open to other options, search for helpful information themselves. About CBT, that is great insight on it and I absolutely agree with you. My process was a combination of a kind of self psychoanalysis followed by what you described. I am biased towards Freud because of his psychoanalysis and all his works have been very relevant to my case. I have somewhat generalized anxiety in my previous posts when in fact anxiety is such a broad term and has multiple facets to it and being able to draw from the sheer amount of stuff that Freud published has been extremely helpful. But the point is that there have been so many great writers, thinkers, philosophers with brilliant insight that have done the difficult task of intense reflection and thought-processing, and have thus exceptionally comprehended human nature and experience. It's just about finding the right people to draw knowledge and inspiration from. 
Integrating knowledge into practice is also something I struggle with as there is such a gulf between idea and praxis and it can be difficult as we can see from history. Yes, the human mind/nature can be very resistant to change especially positive but I believe we have to keep pushing through that resistance and just keep exploring new grounds and finding new ways to apply positive ideas into everyday life. Thanks for posting and best wishes.


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## Cassoulet94 (Apr 3, 2014)

lovehatehero said:


> Thanks for sharing. Your story makes me really glad. Because one of the things that I struggled most with my anxiety was alienation; a feeling of not understanding who or what I was and therefore not belonging. But as I started reading, I gradually realized that I was actually not so different from others at all and that there were actually people, at first fictional but later real as well that I could relate to. I started with literature also; Camus' The Stranger but more importantly Dostoevsky's Notes from the Underground which so to speak put me on the path to self-realization. Notes was so influential; something I could never have imagined that a Russian novelist writing 150 years before could create a fictional character that I could relate to in entirety and here I was feeling like an alien. This assured me that the physical as well as psychical constitution of humans is the same, that just imbalances and distortions makes you perceive things differently. So yeah, it makes me really glad now that there are other real people who have gone through similar things.
> I agree that the mass market books on psychology and generally are of little value but I think along with literature that have tremendous philosophical and psychological depth like that of Dostoevsky for example, just a general idea of literature in psychology and research/academic papers on various topics can be really helpful in getting information. Like the recent paper about how psychotherapy is 25% less effective than previously thought. Again, not discrediting therapy but people must be open to other options, search for helpful information themselves. About CBT, that is great insight on it and I absolutely agree with you. My process was a combination of a kind of self psychoanalysis followed by what you described. I am biased towards Freud because of his psychoanalysis and all his works have been very relevant to my case. I have somewhat generalized anxiety in my previous posts when in fact anxiety is such a broad term and has multiple facets to it and being able to draw from the sheer amount of stuff that Freud published has been extremely helpful. But the point is that there have been so many great writers, thinkers, philosophers with brilliant insight that have done the difficult task of intense reflection and thought-processing, and have thus exceptionally comprehended human nature and experience. It's just about finding the right people to draw knowledge and inspiration from.
> Integrating knowledge into practice is also something I struggle with as there is such a gulf between idea and praxis and it can be difficult as we can see from history. Yes, the human mind/nature can be very resistant to change especially positive but I believe we have to keep pushing through that resistance and just keep exploring new grounds and finding new ways to apply positive ideas into everyday life. Thanks for posting and best wishes.


Thanks, the same to you !

I like Dostoevsky but I have never read Notes from Underground ! The philosophic essay from Camus that I preferred was the Myth of Sisyphus.

Yes, feeling different, lonely, anxious, that is part of human condition, human have experienced these thoughts and emotions since time immemorial, so we are definitely not unique. Actually, I realized than most people, even those that some here call -rather stupidly- normies, have to face them from time to time.

And yes, I agree, it hard to translate new thoughts into new behaviors, but it is important to be very patient and forgiving with yourself, it takes time for your brain to adapt but if you do it right you are definitely on the right track. And I found that the more confident you get, the quicker you progress.

I would not say that I am happy that I had to fight depression and social anxiety, that would be a lie since even if I don't really know what would have been my life without these, I guess it would have been a lot less painful. But I definitely think that what we went trough taught us a lot of things about life and how you can change your reality with effort, reflection and knowledge. Sometimes I met people who think that life is what comes to you. I am not like that at all.

Of course, on some other fields, I (I won't talk about you since I don't know you), I have probably less experience than the average -love and sex for example-, but I think that is is not so hard to catch up. I have used knowledge too in these domain (of course it's not all about that, far from it, but that is a start) and so far so good despite, the fact that nothing happened in the first twenty years of my life.

Ok I talk too much, Ciao


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

Cassoulet94 said:


> Thanks, the same to you !
> 
> I like Dostoevsky but I have never read Notes from Underground ! The philosophic essay from Camus that I preferred was the Myth of Sisyphus.
> 
> ...


Yes, the distinction between normals and abnormal is quite superfluous when in reality there are degrees of normality and the so called normals are subject to the same things which can become apparent in them from time to time even though they are mostly unconscious or oblivious to it. Personally, I don't regret my anxiety, however terrible it was because it has made me conscious and I think being conscious is being in the know, seeing things as they really are than how they appear to be, in a sense being closer to truth, not to mention how it was a great learning process. But truth and authenticity seem to me to be the highest virtues. 
About love, relationship and sexuality, they are a vital sphere of the human experience and seem to run in conjunction with the other psychological processes. There was a tendency in me before to repudiate love and sexuality to the point where I saw them as a negative affect. Love as an aberration that creates superfluous tensions in the psyche and which usually results in displeasure. I used to pass off this feeling as a "principle" or "value-judgment" and remained adamant that it must be so. That was illness pure and simple; the inability to love, the frustrations from love is precisely a state of illness. Love might feel like an aberration when you are in that state of mind but actually it is one of the most potent means of remedying illness. That relates to the gradation of normality I talked about, a healthy balance is absolutely vital. That balance is one of the main things I gathered from reading Camus. Being human as he calls it, "Man is the only creature who refuses to be what he is". 
For me, renunciation of love was a great problem; I even dabbled at asceticism for a while. But now I realize rejection and repudiation of every kind is antithetical to a positive state/being. By renouncing anything you are only demarcating yourself from positive change and growth. So kudos to you for at least taking that next vital step in that regard. Like history, change can be gradual or downright stagnant but time and patience is key. Take care. :smile2:


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## Cassoulet94 (Apr 3, 2014)

Oh, that is strange. I have never felt this way. On the contrary I was so envious of people who had rich love and sex life. 

Do you think your attitude towards love could have been an unconscious reaction to the fact that you felt lonely and unloved ? A attempt of your mind to protect you in convincing you that what you were missing was actually not a desirable thing but a destructive and superfluous one ?

It is just a guess, I may be wrong ! It is just that it is not uncommon, when you feel excluded, that your frustration turns into hatred toward those who "belong", so that you can think that you are better off (even if this belief often does not resist an honest and deep self introspection). In your case, you were kind of hating love.

It is without doubt a really a destructive attitude. If you reject love, how can you love yourself ? It is good that you have changed your outlook. You would not have written this post if you hadn't. Love generates tensions, but trying not to love surely generates even more of them. Love and what comes with it is part of human condition, there is no escape from that. You can just learn to deal with it.

What do you mean when you say you see things the way they are ? Do you think there is an absolute truth that can be learned ? That there is an objective reality ?

I don't know if you're interested in debating, I am glad I found someone that likes philosophy for once, but don't bother if you are not, I won't be offended at all.

Sorry if some of my sentences sound weird, I am not a native English speaker.


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

Cassoulet94 said:


> Oh, that is strange. I have never felt this way. On the contrary I was so envious of people who had rich love and sex life.
> 
> Do you think your attitude towards love could have been an unconscious reaction to the fact that you felt lonely and unloved ? A attempt of your mind to protect you in convincing you that what you were missing was actually not a desirable thing but a destructive and superfluous one ?
> 
> ...


Not at all. It's been great talking to you. Yes, you're right I was hating love but feeling unloved and isolated was just one of the reasons for it. There was another complexity in my situation where I doubted the inherent value and nature of love. One of the changes in my personality during anxiety was that I became extremely empathetic. The inability to become hostile towards anything where all hostility and aggression was turned inwards and thus my self-destructive tendencies and only love and affection turned towards external objects. This is unnatural and has resulted from my prolonged conflicts with authority and an extremely guilty conscience. Love/sexuality creates tensions; that is it's most important function, a counter to the ego that wants to immanently destroy itself. But in my case, that tensions reached such great heights that I automatically resorted to a rejection of love. And that was not positive; a state of ignorance, narrowness, and falsely justified inwardness that was definitely harmful for me.

No, I don't believe in an absolute truth anymore (I did for a time), I believe in a multiplicity of truths. And death is one of them. I don't believe I'm wrong in apprehending death in this way because death is a cold hard fact, something that cannot be ill-perceived, distorted or modified in any way. My preoccupation with death is not just a fear of death, or longing for it in a nihilistic sense where my ego is so weak that it wants to destroy itself immediately but rather an appreciation of it; embracing it because of it's reality. Humans have been compelled by their nature to deny death; constantly turn away from it where in a sense civilization has been built on that fact. An escape from death and the fears pertaining to it in the mind has made them able to impose and create "reality". This is also why you see the divide in human experience between mind and matter to put it simply, an overvaluation of matter over mind. I believe the superficial and materialistic nature of society is a direct consequence of that.

I just can't deny death; truth is just too valuable. I don't feel anything negative has come from this except the fear which is the most fundamental fear and something I'm willing to concede to. On the contrary this constant perception of death makes the transient nature of existence even more valuable; nothing is taken for granted as is usually the case with humans. I could always deny death and generally speaking, go out and go through the motions of life but I realize a balance, a synthesis is absolutely vital; mind and matter, body and spirit, theory and practice, the individual and society, transient existence and eternal non-existence, all of this duality and schisms must be reconciled. Rejection of one thing or another is just not an option. That is the truth and authenticity I talked about.


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## Cassoulet94 (Apr 3, 2014)

lovehatehero said:


> Not at all. It's been great talking to you. Yes, you're right I was hating love but feeling unloved and isolated was just one of the reasons for it. There was another complexity in my situation where I doubted the inherent value and nature of love. One of the changes in my personality during anxiety was that I became extremely empathetic. The inability to become hostile towards anything where all hostility and aggression was turned inwards and thus my self-destructive tendencies and only love and affection turned towards external objects. This is unnatural and has resulted from my prolonged conflicts with authority and an extremely guilty conscience. Love/sexuality creates tensions; that is it's most important function, a counter to the ego that wants to immanently destroy itself. But in my case, that tensions reached such great heights that I automatically resorted to a rejection of love. And that was not positive; a state of ignorance, narrowness, and falsely justified inwardness that was definitely harmful for me.
> 
> No, I don't believe in an absolute truth anymore (I did for a time), I believe in a multiplicity of truths. And death is one of them. I don't believe I'm wrong in apprehending death in this way because death is a cold hard fact, something that cannot be ill-perceived, distorted or modified in any way. My preoccupation with death is not just a fear of death, or longing for it in a nihilistic sense where my ego is so weak that it wants to destroy itself immediately but rather an appreciation of it; embracing it because of it's reality. Humans have been compelled by their nature to deny death; constantly turn away from it where in a sense civilization has been built on that fact. An escape from death and the fears pertaining to it in the mind has made them able to impose and create "reality". This is also why you see the divide in human experience between mind and matter to put it simply, an overvaluation of matter over mind. I believe the superficial and materialistic nature of society is a direct consequence of that.
> 
> I just can't deny death; truth is just too valuable. I don't feel anything negative has come from this except the fear which is the most fundamental fear and something I'm willing to concede to. On the contrary this constant perception of death makes the transient nature of existence even more valuable; nothing is taken for granted as is usually the case with humans. I could always deny death and generally speaking, go out and go through the motions of life but I realize a balance, a synthesis is absolutely vital; mind and matter, body and spirit, theory and practice, the individual and society, transient existence and eternal non-existence, all of this duality and schisms must be reconciled. Rejection of one thing or another is just not an option. That is the truth and authenticity I talked about.


It is true that in modern western societies, death is a taboo. People do not want to think about it, they behave as if it was not a certainty. They try as hard as they can to put the reminders out of their sight; it has been exacerbated by the progress of science and medicine and the decrease in physical violence; the less death is around us, the less we accept it, because we tend to forget it, we are not used to it anymore and when it manifests itself, as it never fails to do at one point or another, we don't know how to face it.

The way Parisians reacted to the recent attacks gives a good example of that, even if here, the way the victims died is also important.

Before, when death was more present in people' everyday life, religion had a key role; beliefs were stronger and they were introducing sense and certainty where there was not. Uncertainty and the absence of sense are two things human beings have always feared greatly; it is probably one of the reasons that explain why religion beliefs have existed at all times in every part of the world.

And death is probably the biggest uncertainty; that it will happen is certain; but what it is and to what it leads is not.

Western societies have become disenchanted; the place that religion used to occupy has remained empty; some ideologies have had temporary successes, but today, there is some kind of ideological emptiness. Materialism and the pursuit of happiness trough frenetic consumption is maybe a response to that emptiness, but these kind of assumptions are very hard to verify. I think there is a strong risk of oversimplification.

However, all societies/cultures don't have the same approach of death. For example, in Buddhism, the ultimate goal is to stop all cravings in order to end the cycle of death and rebirth, so that one can die and never return; what constitutes a being (there is no self according to Buddha) just ceases to exist. It is only an example among many others.

My point is that I do not think that one can say that human civilization as a whole has been built on the ignorance of death. Many other forces drive human behaviors and I fail to see your point here. But maybe if you give further explanations I will understand better what you are trying to say. Also if you could develop a little your point about the link between the matter/mind divide and fear of death, I would probably be more able to see what you mean.

My view is that human beings crave for sense and certainty; they have constantly tried to introduce coherence and reason where there is none. This is precisely the construction of reality; the matter of death is only a part of it.

Men have conceptualized everything, to such extent that it sometimes leads to forget that concept is only the projection of the mind on things, so that one may think that the concept is actually reality itself.

In the Myth of Sisyphus, Camus denounces this tendency by displaying the philosophy of absurd. As you, he underlines that only death is certain. But existence and the world have no sense, no purpose. They just are. Thus, for him, there is an essential question that he reveals in the first sentence of the book: _"There is only one really serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide."

_Realizing that existence has no sense,should a man commits suicide ? His personal answer is no.

What I also noticed in what you said is that while saying that there are few absolute truths apart from the certainty of death, you use a lot of concepts to describe the world: equilibrium, synthesis, dualisms like mind and body, society and individual... The emphasize of duality makes me think strongly about oriental philosophy and concept such as the Yin and Yang (Duality organizes the universe, opposite forces are complementary and leads to harmony). Are you inspired by that ? And what do you mean by "reconciled" ?


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

Cassoulet94 said:


> It is true that in modern western societies, death is a taboo. People do not want to think about it, they behave as if it was not a certainty. They try as hard as they can to put the reminders out of their sight; it has been exacerbated by the progress of science and medicine and the decrease in physical violence; the less death is around us, the less we accept it, because we tend to forget it, we are not used to it anymore and when it manifests itself, as it never fails to do at one point or another, we don't know how to face it.
> 
> The way Parisians reacted to the recent attacks gives a good example of that, even if here, the way the victims died is also important.
> 
> ...


Yes, I admit that I've oversimplified things in an attempt to keep these discourses short. And I have regarded death as the prime concern because I do believe it's the most certain truth. And yes, different cultures have different notions of death but how many Buddhists do you think see death as Buddha saw it? But what I really mean is that civilization is not only built on the ignorance or rejection of death, but that it's largely built through the renunciation of many definite truths whether that be instincts, reason, faith, all things that seem to be the fundamental aspects of human nature. A largely faith-based world of the Middle Ages even with the prevalence of scholasticism (an attempt to combine faith and reason) notwithstanding which was largely replaced by the age of reason after the Enlightenment and a diminishing of faith in people's lives. And today, reason is overvalued when in reality instincts still seem to reign over men. War is a good example; even with various rational justifications of war, it is still a regression of man to a time where he yielded to his aggressive/negative instincts. Instincts has ruled over men for all epochs and yet civilization could only evolve by a diminution of it. But instead of a naturally efficacious solution, instincts have been forcefully suppressed to the point of creating illnesses which is just brushed aside and given the terms "mental illness", "crime and deviance". My point is that all definite human truths must be acknowledged at all times.

Again, I'm simplifying when I talk of matter/mind but that's just one of the duality that I think is correlated with death. Perception of death is only possible when someone is engaged with the mind or thoughts as opposed to the senses. But there is a tendency in humans to move away from the mind and it seems that death could be a primary reason for this; not just fear of it but uncertainty in relation to it. It makes sense from an economical point of view where the expenditure of mental energies are kept to a minimum. And with this is related knowledge and intellect which are aspects of the mind. In popular usage, knowledge and intellect becomes a mere means as opposed to some kind of an end, in that knowledge is only gained for sustenance, which is subject to the instincts. Knowledge is not sought for as an end in itself. And thus, I believe a complete valuation of life is diminished when the "non-mental" is given greater importance than the mind.

About individuality and society/state or all things external, I just want to point than Kant who greatly influenced European liberalism called for along with the rights and obligations of the individual, an autonomy of the individual and freedom from the state. With the onset of industry and democracy and it's many institutions and bureaucracy, this autonomous individual seems to be largely lost where the individual, the only conscious thing that carries life seems to have been reduced to a mere number/unit. Autonomy seems to be non-existent in this day and age. The purpose and meaning of life seems to have been exclusively defined by the state and it's many institutions, a constant movement towards that "outwardness" and losing every bit of the necessary "inwardness", personal meaning and valuations. For all the wonders of modernization, with all it's material and technical progress, man seems to be just as confused, disoriented and incoherent as he was many millennia ago, whether that be consciously or unconsciously.That is ultimately what I mean by reconciliation. Ethically speaking, its about an equal valuation of things; discerning that conflicts can be resolved by moving towards unity and balance. The greatest complete valuation through separate equivalent valuations.

As much as I like Camus, I dont believe in his interpretation of the Myth of Sissyphus. Camus believed with his theory of the absurd that reconciliation or resolving of conficts between things was futile. I am more influenced by Kierkegaard in that regard who incidentally influenced Camus and I feel that a reunity is possible or that at least there is greater value in striving towards it. Camus believed that like Sisyphus meaningless striving in life could give you satisfaction/happiness and that death or suicide must be persistently fought against. I find this illegitimate because I think Camus makes the flaw of taking death or suicide as a conceptual thing and not something as an immediate reality (which again co-incidentally that is what he experienced when he died in a car accident). In his philosophy, he seems to focus on separateness, like that of life and death. I think meaning and value and greater satisfaction can be gained only when separateness are united which can only be done through total acceptance. I don't think meaningless of life taken separately, something that is independent of death is desirable; on the contrary it is only through death that life finds greater meaning, perception and experience of both the transient and eternal aspects of the human condition.

No I haven't read any oriental philosophy or even classical for that matter. I am mainly influenced by Kierkegaard and to a lesser extent Herman Hesse with his plurality that can be seen in his masterpieces such as Steppenwolf and Siddhartha. But these views are something that I've experienced; I think my unique position where I lived on the fringes of society for so long has enabled me to perceive things this way.


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

lovehatehero said:


> Yes, I admit that I've oversimplified things in an attempt to keep these discourses short. And I have regarded death as the prime concern because I do believe it's the most certain truth. and yes, different cultures have different notions of death but how many Buddhists do you think see death as Buddha saw it? But what I really mean is that civilization is not only built on the ignorance or rejection of death, but that it's largely built through the renunciation of many definite truths whether that be instincts, reason, faith, all things that seem to be the fundamental aspects of human nature. A largely faith-based world of the Middle Ages even with the prevalence of scholasticism (an attempt to combine faith and reason) notwithstanding which was largely replaced by the age of reason after the Enlightenment and a diminishing of faith in people's lives. And today, reason is overvalued when in reality instincts still seem to reign over men. War is a good example; even with various rational justifications of war, it is still a regression of man to a time where he yielded to his aggressive/negative instincts. Instincts has ruled over men for all epochs and yet civilization could only evolve by a diminution of it. But instead of a naturally efficacious solution, instincts have been forcefully suppressed to the point of creating illnesses which is just brushed aside and given the terms "mental illness", "crime and deviance". My point is that all definite human truths must be acknowledged at all times.
> 
> Again, I'm simplifying when I talk of matter/mind but that's just one of the duality that I think is correlated with death. Perception of death is only possible when someone is engaged with the mind or thoughts as opposed to the senses. But there is a tendency in humans to move away from the mind and it seems that death could be a primary reason for this; not just fear of it but uncertainty in relation to it. It makes sense from an economical point of view where the expenditure of mental energies are kept to a minimum. And with this is related knowledge and intellect which are aspects of the mind. In popular usage, knowledge and intellect becomes a mere means as opposed to some kind of an end, in that knowledge is only gained for sustenance, which is subject to the instincts. Knowledge is not sought for as an end in itself. And thus, I believe value is diminished when the "non-mental" is given greater importance than the mind.
> 
> ...


Kierkegaard believed that if you're not yourself, that is your true self which you're conscious of as a being that is a synthesis of all things under God, you're in despair. He felt that this illness for the most part extends to all of humanity, and there are only small variations of it. I tend to believe in this that there is only illness which constantly proceeds through life and finally culminates in death. So therefore I don't have a singular notion of well-being, health or this "normality" that is frequently talked about. I just cannot be compelled to strive for mere normality and I believe that there is a capacity for greater improvement in man. Because what is this normality, what does it really consist of? Is being human merely enough, and can all things be justified as "human nature"? Could normality merely be an unconscious state of illness? Orientating yourself in life either objectively or subjectively is not enough in my view; we have to look at this concern from every perspective possible. I think that a greater edification of man is possible or at the least pursuing it is invaluable.

Lastly, I just want to add something about the distinction you mentioned where concepts are taken as reality. But I think this is justified because there is not that big of a divide between concepts and reality. Of course that must be a threshold in concepts that must not be crossed and preserving practicability is important. But the foundations of society rests on concepts and theories; they have facilitated historical change. Man is the sole creator of reality and the best possible man shall create the best possible reality. Individual edification translating into improvement of all things in reality. That is what I seem to be getting at.
Like you, I'm interested in sociology and personally, that seems to be a good medium through which I can achieve the goals that I've set for myself.


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## VanDamme (Jun 8, 2004)

So this is what a man talking to himself sounds like. Interesting.

Carry on! :grin2:


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## lovehatehero (May 19, 2013)

VanDamme said:


> So this is what a man talking to himself sounds like. Interesting.
> 
> Carry on! :grin2:


But aren't we all just really talking to ourselves. Some in similar ways and others in entirely different ways. But whatever floats your boat man. Keep floating it, that's what it's all about.


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## Cassoulet94 (Apr 3, 2014)

Sorry I won't have time to make an answer to such long posts before a while because I am traveling and I don't like to hurry when I talk about that kind of thing. But I will answer don't think I forgot about it !


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