# Is it that unusual for a man



## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

I am Christian and I don't believe in sex before marriage. But even if I was an atheist and wanted sex, even then it wouldn't be worth all that fuss. The reason I am obsessed about the relationship is that I feel like a total failure (due to social rejection) and I want a woman to make me feel better about myself. I also want emotional connection, to feel that someone cares about me, to feel loved. Above all I want a real relationship, not just a fling. When I google that stuff, I overwhelmingly see advice directed to women. So apparently no men except for me ever have those emotional needs. Well if men have nothing better to do than sex, no wonder no woman takes them seriously, and I don't get them either. But who cares, they can all get lost as far as I am concerned, the only problem I have with them is that they ruin it for me. Here I am, I want real emotional connection, yet my emotional needs aren't taken seriously because people assume I am after sex when I am not -- all because of those jerks.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

ha didly ha 

sorry but some little bible bashing sop crying about his poor little emotional needs and blaming his problems on people who like to have sex, the guy is a plum of the highest order - if the almighty one was real he would be embarrassed to call this guy one of his own.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

I would say you should look into other disorders (besides SA) in which extreme rigidity, inflexibility and preoccupation with morality and rituals and having things "just so" are common. Maybe some kind of OCD.

It's not unheard of for men to have these ideas but it's fairly unusual for them to be obsessed with it.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

shirayuki said:


> As a fellow Christian I can tell, the best way to find your ideal woman (assuming you want a christian woman with same values and who wants a deep relationship too) is to go to church and take part in different kinds of activities the church arranges. Or write on dating profile what you're looking for.


I do go to church, but women don't approach me. Due to my Asperger I have problem with body language I guess that is why.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

SFC01 said:


> You are ruining it for yourself, no one else. Jerk.


I don't have a single example of when women rejected me for the fact that I don't believe in sex before marriage, so I don't get how you say I am ruining things for myself this particular way.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

causalset said:


> Due to my Asperger I have problem with body language I guess that is why.


Well, now you are just making me feel bad.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

WillYouStopDave said:


> I would say you should look into other disorders (besides SA) in which extreme rigidity, inflexibility and preoccupation with morality and rituals and having things "just so" are common. Maybe some kind of OCD.
> 
> It's not unheard of for men to have these ideas but it's fairly unusual for them to be obsessed with it.


I happened to have Asperger. But, putting this aside, if a woman were to talk about emotional needs, would you ever suggest she looks into "mental disorders with extreme regidity"? Probably not: as you admitted in your last sentence, the reason you suggested it in my case is that its unusual *for men* to have the kind of emotional needs that I described. Well thats sexism right there. I wish I was allowed to have the emotional needs that women do and have them met, rather than have them challenged on a sole basis that I am a male.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

causalset said:


> I happened to have Asperger. But, putting this aside, if a woman were to talk about emotional needs, would you ever suggest she looks into "mental disorders with extreme regidity"? Probably not: as you admitted in your last sentence, the reason you suggested it in my case is that its unusual *for men* to have the kind of emotional needs that I described. Well thats sexism right there. I wish I was allowed to have the emotional needs that women do and have them met, rather than have them challenged on a sole basis that I am a male.


I don't think its the having emotional needs that he picked up on, almost all men have emotional needs and basically everyone except you seems to recognise this (it is _your_ sexism that weirdly assumes they don't). What I suspect he is picking up on is your assumption that other men are causing _your_ problems because they like sex.

Liking sex and emotional needs aren't mutually exclusive.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> What I suspect he is picking up on is your assumption that other men are causing _your_ problems because they like sex.


Thats the truth though. Why is it that women don't smile at me and avoid approaching me, and when I make eye contact they cross the street? Because they think I am one of those creepy guys that want sex. And where did that notion originate? From the fact that other men do, in fact, want sex.

It might be true that men have emotional needs, but the question is to what degree, as in what would a man be willing to go out of his way for? Thats where I differ from most men in that they have sex as top priority and I have emotional validation as top priority.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

causalset said:


> Thats the truth though. Why is it that women don't smile at me and avoid approaching me, and when I make eye contact they cross the street? Because they think I am one of those creepy guys that want sex. And where did that notion originate? From the fact that other men do, in fact, want sex.


jesus ****, stop it please. None of this has got anything to do with other men wanting sex.

Women just don't cross the road because a man makes eye contact. Where are you making eye contact with these, down some dark lane in the small hours?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

SFC01 said:


> jesus ****, stop it please. None of this has got anything to do with other men wanting sex.
> 
> Women just don't cross the road because a man makes eye contact. Where are you making eye contact with these, down some dark lane in the small hours?


I was making eye contact on campus and it was daylight.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

causalset said:


> Thats the truth though. Why is it that women don't smile at me and avoid approaching me, and when I make eye contact they cross the street? Because they think I am one of those creepy guys that want sex. And where did that notion originate? From the fact that other men do, in fact, want sex.


To jump to the conclusion that they are doing this because other men want sex is an extraordinary leap though. Other reasons (it could be any of these, or a combination of these)

- It is confirmation bias. You are only remembering the instances where this happens and forgetting the times it doesn't
- They are intimidated by you in some way
- Your lack of ability to read people means you are misinterpreting their actions (you have aspergers right?)
- You don't look friendly
- They are just having a bad day
- Eye contact in those situations is perceived as threatening (again, you have aspergers, you might be acting in a way that is taken in a different way that you intend).

Them acting in this way because other men enjoy sex is _really really_ out there.

My guess though, the street isn't the time to be making eye contact, and you might well be doing it in a way which they perceive as threatening. Not your fault, its probably aspergers and you aren't getting it quite right in some subtle way. This is the most likely explanation, imo.



causalset said:


> It might be true that men have emotional needs, but the question is to what degree, as in what would a man be willing to go out of his way for? Thats where I differ from most men in that they have sex as top priority and I have emotional validation as top priority.


Men on average likely have as many emotional needs as women. Why do you think that most men want long term relationships, marriage, kids, all of that?

You are running with a lot of assumptions that don't have much grounding, imo


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

shirayuki said:


> I'm not that familiar with Asperger, I know only one person who has it and she never makes eye contact, looks down so that her hair mostly covers her face and she barely replies when something is asked from her. You mentioned that it could be your body language that causes women to not approach you. So could you tell us how your body language works? I think this is the biggest issue here.


I think making or not making eye contact is a subjective thing, because some of the feedback I get from others has to do with "not" making eye contact, yet I think I do. I guess its possible they tell me this because I say I have Asperger and they just go off of stereotype that people with Asperger don't make eye contact, which doesn't apply to me. Or, the other possibility, is that the times when I "don't" make eye contact are the times when I don't pay attention, while the times when I "do" make eye contact are the times when I obsess, hence I notice the latter and not the former.

As far as not responding when others talk to me, the main reason I don't respond is that most of the time people talk to someone other than me (which is precisely what I am complaining about here) so when they do finally wave at me or something, I am not totally sure if they wave at me or at someone else, and I don't want to put myself under risk of responding as if it is addressed towards me and then learning hard way that it wasn't. I want people to absolutely clearly call me by name or something. But they don't do it. On the contrary if they wave at me a couple of times and I don't respond they just give up, even if those couple of times were just mishaps and I am obsessed with wanting them to wave at me again just so that I can respond.

As far as other aspects of my body language, my voice is loud and monotone, and also I naturally speak very fast. Interestingly, when I ask people why no one talks to me, that is often one of the things I am told. The interesting question is just how do they know that my voice is loud if they never talked to me? Do they spread rumors across the campus or what? But as far as non-verbal things, my body language is often tense or rigid, and also my hair is naturally curly and I am too lazy to do all the work to make it neat (I don't want to use the gel since when I used it once it felt like a glue and I can't imagine it being healthy for the hair) I also forget to shave and after I forget to shave for few days my beard gets long enough for it to be painful to shave but paying 20 dollars for hair dresser to shave me is too much so I wait few weeks, and only then go to hair dresser and pay them to shave it completely off. I also forget to tuck in my shirt, tie my shoes, cut my nails, and so forth, which my mom points out when I visit her. Also the other thing someone pointed out to me when I asked is that my shirts are wrinkled and I don't sit straight. And also a lot of people tell me that I don't smile.

Now in terms of being neat I guess its easy to fix it, but the hard part about it is that I just turned 37 and I only realized the importance of it recently. So now I need to get back all those years of my life that I lost due to something so stupid.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

we are getting somewhere now, so no mention of the other stuff eh.

You seem to know where some of the issues may stem from so are you willing, able and motivated to work on them ?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> - They are intimidated by you in some way


Intimidated means afraid. So what are they afraid of? That I will start groping them or something? I most definitely won't, so if they think that I would, that is a HUGE misunderstanding, that other men is to blame.



splendidbob said:


> - You don't look friendly


"Not friendly" = "Not having emotional needs". Hence my protestation that yes I do have emotional needs. Well at the very least "unfriendly" people don't have the needs to interact with people they are "unfriendly" towards. So if women REALLY think I am so unfriendly, why cross the street then, if PRESUMABLY I am more than happy to do it for them? But the whole point is that yes I do want a friendly interaction with women, I only LOOK unfriendly because I don't know how to express it in my body language.



splendidbob said:


> - Eye contact in those situations is perceived as threatening (again, you have aspergers, you might be acting in a way that is taken in a different way that you intend).


Once again, threatening in what way? What are they afraid I would do?



splendidbob said:


> My guess though, the street isn't the time to be making eye contact,


So where should I? In class? In church? I am avoided in all those places as well.



splendidbob said:


> Men on average likely have as many emotional needs as women. Why do you think that most men want long term relationships, marriage, kids, all of that?


Good point. But then how would you explain why when you read about people talking about relationship problems, you will find women seeking commitment complaining about men just wanting sex, but you would never find a post by a man seeking commitment complaining about women just wanting sex?


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

shirayuki said:


> As a fellow Christian I can tell, the best way to find your ideal woman (assuming you want a christian woman with same values and who wants a deep relationship too) is to go to church and take part in different kinds of activities the church arranges. Or write on dating profile what you're looking for.
> 
> This reminds me of a funny story; I had this guy on facebook I got to know when I was working. We had nice chatting at first and he was like a teddy bear, then he suddenly was suggesting blowjob. I then told him that I want to save myself until I'm married and his reaction to that was priceless. Didn't hear of that guy since, lol. Nor did I want to, he became disgusting suddenly.


Christian females don't date christian guys anymore. The new generation christian females likes atheists and muslims. Christianity is a dying religion.

About your funny story: yes, very funny. Hilarious.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

SFC01 said:


> we are getting somewhere now, so no mention of the other stuff eh.
> 
> You seem to know where some of the issues may stem from so are you willing, able and motivated to work on them ?


Yes I am willing and motivated to work on them. The only problems with this is

1. Will people remember the way I used to be in the past? So should I transfer *yet again* to a different school for fresh start?

2. I just turned 37 and I can't get all this time back. And when I post how I want to date women in their 20-s -- in order to make up for the fact that I missed out on it before due to being stupid -- people assume I just want sex, hence the topic of this thread.


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## girlyone1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Trust me.....there are girls out there that know not all men just want that. Its not that other men are messing it up for you.

You said youre Christian, so why don't you try to meet a girl at Church....Im sure she'll have the same values as you and know that youre not just looking for sex .


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## girlyone1 (Jan 20, 2012)

ljubo said:


> Christian females don't date christian guys anymore. The new generation christian females likes atheists and muslims. Christianity is a dying religion.
> 
> About your funny story: yes, very funny. Hilarious.


Thats a lie. Maybe at your Church and where you live.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

girlyone1 said:


> Thats a lie. Maybe at your Church and where you live.


I see this problem everwhere. Christian females always have a partner while christian guys always are alone.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

girlyone1 said:


> You said youre Christian, so why don't you try to meet a girl at Church....Im sure she'll have the same values as you and know that youre not just looking for sex .


At church I have the same issue: why don't girls ever approach me and start conversation with me? I guess its a body language or something.


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## girlyone1 (Jan 20, 2012)

ljubo said:


> I see this problem everwhere. Christian females always have a partner while christian guys always are alone.


Where is everywhere? And how do you know this? You go around asking people what their religion is?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

ljubo said:


> I see this problem everwhere. Christian females always have a partner while christian guys always are alone.


Yeah thats the mathematical question I had myself: how is it possible for men to struggle so much more than women if numbers of males and females are the same. I didn't see though any evidence of girls massively dating muslims. So I have no idea what is the answer to my question.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

causalset said:


> Intimidated means afraid. So what are they afraid of? That I will start groping them or something? I most definitely won't, so if they think that I would, that is a HUGE misunderstanding, that other men is to blame.


It isn't a conscious thing. They aren't thinking "oh, that guy looks like he will grope me", they just see someone on the street purposefully making eye contact with them where it usually wouldn't happen. Because it isn't normal for someone to make eye contact in the street this alone will make them nervous.

I am guessing you can't appreciate this because of your aspergers. When you deviate from normal body language and behaviour this _subconsciously_ raises flags. You might not be able to understand this, but you need to _accept_ it. Other people are driven by their subconscious, and ascribing conscious motives where they don't exist is faulty reasoning.



causalset said:


> "Not friendly" = "Not having emotional needs".


Someone can look unfriendly and have emotional needs.



causalset said:


> So if women REALLY think I am so unfriendly, why cross the street then, if PRESUMABLY I am more than happy to do it for them? But the whole point is that yes I do want a friendly interaction with women, I only LOOK unfriendly because I don't know how to express it in my body language.


They can't read your mind. They will interpret your motives based off your body language, and this will be done almost entirely outside of their conscious mind. If your behaviour is even marginally outside of normal parameters (as determined by their instinct, aka their subconscious) it will potentially make them uncomfortable.

Maybe you can't understand how this works, but you need to _accept_ it. There is something other people do that you are missing, I think.

So in this instance, which is more likely:

1. Women are avoiding you when you make eye contact with them in the street because other men are only interested in sex

2. Because of your aspergers, you are misjudging the length of eye contact, and your behaviour appears unusual, which makes them uneasy

It is 2, almost certainly.



causalset said:


> So where should I? In class? In church? I am avoided in all those places as well.


Conversations would be a fairly safe place for eye contact.



causalset said:


> Good point. But then how would you explain why when you read about people talking about relationship problems, you will find women seeking commitment complaining about men just wanting sex, but you would never find a post by a man seeking commitment complaining about women just wanting sex?


There could be numerous reasons for this. It is a bit like seeing sheep fenced in a field and concluding from this that sheep must really love fences, because they are always near one 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization


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## girlyone1 (Jan 20, 2012)

causalset said:


> At church I have the same issue: why don't girls ever approach me and start conversation with me? I guess its a body language or something.


Maybe they dont want to. Why dont you approach them?


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

girlyone1 said:


> Maybe they dont want to. Why dont you approach them?


If, as you say, they don't want to, why impose myself then?

I want them to be the ones approaching me since that would give me a validation that they like me.


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## girlyone1 (Jan 20, 2012)

causalset said:


> If, as you say, they don't want to, why impose myself then?
> 
> I want them to be the ones approaching me since that would give me a validation that they like me.


Oh gawd. Youre never going to get a woman like that. Women usual dont approach men, that is very rare. If a man approaches and if shes into him....trust she will show it. If not, oh well. There are a million women in this world. Move on to the next that interest you.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

causalset said:


> Yes I am willing and motivated to work on them. The only problems with this is
> 
> 1. Will people remember the way I used to be in the past? So should I transfer *yet again* to a different school for fresh start?
> 
> 2. I just turned 37 and I can't get all this time back. And when I post how I want to date women in their 20-s -- in order to make up for the fact that I missed out on it before due to being stupid -- people assume I just want sex, hence the topic of this thread.


1) Maybe, maybe not but people (and women  ) can change their views, with enough effort on your part but of course you can meet new people without moving.

2) Maybe aim for early to mid 30's then. I would love some mid 20's honey but I`m not that age anymore so I don't see that as a realistic or the best option for me long term, which is what you are after.

What are the 1 or 2 things you can work on right now? I would say sharpen up your grooming and think of ways you can look more open I guess with your body language, but you need to try and do that whilst being comfortable with it as well.

Also, school at 37, not sure I understand ? Maybe school means something different there than it does here in the UK


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

causalset said:


> At church I have the same issue: why don't girls ever approach me and start conversation with me? I guess its a body language or something.


Christian females have much demands. Even more than atheist females have. The old school honor & love is gone.



girlyone1 said:


> Where is everywhere? And how do you know this? You go around asking people what their religion is?


The whole world.

Take a look at christian dating sites, 99 % is males. I look at facebook-profiles, the christian guys are always single while christian females always have a husband/bf and when i check up that husband/bfs profile its always a atheist/muslim etc. And i have talked to many christian males that claim that christian females are turning their back on christian males.

And with my own eyes i see christian females here in sweden with muslim boyfriends/husbands. I seen many swedish christian females always talking about "open yourself up to multiculture" "its racist not to date a non-christian" "christian guys are weird" and stuff like that.


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## girlyone1 (Jan 20, 2012)

ljubo said:


> Christian females have much demands. Even more than atheist females have. The old school honor & love is gone.
> 
> The whole world.
> 
> ...


I've never been on a Christian dating website....but also I don't look at both sexes when I did search on dating websites.

Oh ok well here, I know Christian women who are married to Christian men. To just say they don't want them anymore is not completely true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## M0rbid (Jan 11, 2011)

^ @*ljubo* from my experience as a christian the same applies to US. Atheist girls are more forgiving in terms of dating standard than Christians


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

girlyone1 said:


> Oh ok well here, I know Christian women who are married to Christian men. To just say they don't want them anymore is not completely true.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, the old generation. Good luck finding christian females who are 30-15 that are with a christian male. And keep in mind that non-christian females don't want christian males aswell.



M0rbid said:


> ^ @*ljubo* from my experience as a christian the same applies to US. Atheist girls are more forgiving in terms of dating standard than Christians


The media and the left are demonizing christian males, thats the reason christian males are alone.


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## LucasPSI (Dec 23, 2016)

I know exactly what you mean. And honestly, yeah. What you said is sadly the case. Most men out there tend to want a one night fling and nothing more. As a homosexual man I've learned that that is very evident. Not everyone is like that though. It's just that the people who would rather have a one night fling per say, are much more open about that kind of stuff. I have one other friend who is very monogamous, while another who say's he's fine with sleeping with anyone as long as it's a friend. 

I'm not Christian myself, nor do I plan on saving sex for after marriage, but I do much more prefer a monogamous relationship that is more than just sex. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I could easily do without it in my life.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Most men will tend to settle for a one night stand if that's on offer but that's got **** all to do with why woman are avoiding the original poster.

Personally, I'd **** most women if they asked me to.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

causalset said:


> I am Christian and I don't believe in sex before marriage. But even if I was an atheist and wanted sex, even then it wouldn't be worth all that fuss. The reason I am obsessed about the relationship is that I feel like a total failure (due to social rejection) and * I want a woman to make me feel better about myself.* I also want emotional connection, to feel that someone cares about me, to feel loved. Above all I want a real relationship, not just a fling. When I google that stuff, I overwhelmingly see advice directed to women. So apparently no men except for me ever have those emotional needs. Well if men have nothing better to do than sex, no wonder no woman takes them seriously, and I don't get them either. But who cares, they can all get lost as far as I am concerned, the only problem I have with them is that they ruin it for me. Here I am, I want real emotional connection, yet my emotional needs aren't taken seriously because people assume I am after sex when I am not -- all because of those jerks.


That's unhealthy and you're setting yourself up for failure.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

SFC01 said:


> 1) Maybe, maybe not but people (and women  ) can change their views, with enough effort on your part but of course you can meet new people without moving.


As far as meeting new people, the question is why doesn't it happen as of now? I mean obviously there are lots of students on campus, so why don't all those people who happen not to know me yet approach me? Or do you think they all know me since they all saw me being messy walking by?



SFC01 said:


> 2) Maybe aim for early to mid 30's then. I would love some mid 20's honey but I`m not that age anymore so I don't see that as a realistic or the best option *for me long term*, which is what you are after.


Okay, is THAT why when I say I want a girl in mid-20-s people assume I am after fling, because you said mid-20 would specifically be bad for a long term (see bolded part)? Well in this case let me clarify: I want the girl in mid 20-s *and* I want it for a long term. So how come you are saying that long term makes it even worse when it comes to age difference? In my case I would rather have a time machine and go back to the past to redo my life, which means that long term is a *good* thing since long term is the closest one can get to a time machine.



SFC01 said:


> Also, school at 37, not sure I understand ? Maybe school means something different there than it does here in the UK


I got my first ph.d., in Physics, at 29, and now I went to school for second ph.d. ,in Math. Between then and now I spent 5 years in India doing postdocs, then I did one more visitting position after I came to US and then decided to go back to graduate school.

The reason I made this decision is that I can't become a physics professor as of now due to lack of publications. Most people who apply to be physics professors have 15 or 20 papers published, and I have only 3. Now I do have 26 papers at arxiv.org but the problem is that arxiv.org isn't peer reviewed so those don't count when it comes to applying for professor jobs. So my ideal goal is to get all those papers published in referreed journals, but the journals reject them, other than the 3 that were finally accepted (first one was accepted in 2009, second one in 2014, and the third one in the beginning of this year, 2016). Meanwhile I don't want to go to industry or teach community college either, because my passion is to be a theoretical physicist. So I figured that going back to graduate school is a way to stay in academia without the need of other jobs -- when I am a graduate student they pay me for being a TA (teaching assistant). What I hope is that, while in grad school, my thesis supervisor can help me edit my papers and get them published. I mean, back when I was doing postdocs in India I was repeatedly asking my supervisors to edit my papers, and they were like "a week later", "another week", etc. and they never came around to do that. Partly it was because my papers weren't on the topic of their interest, but perhaps more importantly it was because my papers are hard to read which made them want to put them aside -- but that is precisely the reason why I need help publishing them on the first place. Well I am hoping that now that I am a graduate student my supervisor won't procrastinate since it will be his job.

Anyway, as you can see I missed out on life, both socially AND academically. Thats why I want to have a time machine, and pretend to be in my 20-s in all respects, including having a girl in her mid-late 20-s so that I can redo that part of my life.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> It isn't a conscious thing. They aren't thinking "oh, that guy looks like he will grope me", they just see someone on the street purposefully making eye contact with them where it usually wouldn't happen. Because it isn't normal for someone to make eye contact in the street this alone will make them nervous.


Okay how about making eye contact with a cashier or a librarian? In those cases its the same story, minus the fact that they can't really walk away, but they do their best to avoid me by looking away and pretending not to understand my Russian accent if I ask them something. I also noticed that if there is a male librarian and a female one side by side, it will almost always be the male one who will try to help me or, if by some luck, female one will start helping me but I will need more than just 10 seconds of help, the male one will usually take over. How do you interpret that kind of pattern?



splendidbob said:


> When you deviate from normal body language and behaviour this _subconsciously_ raises flags.


But you can deviate in either good or bad direction. So why do people assume that deviating is always bad?

I understand what it means to be instinctively afraid of something. Like for example I am afraid of dogs because back when I was 6 years old I walked into a neighbors appartment and the dog bit me. Logically I know dogs don't bite but I am still afraid. However, if you ask me what am I afraid about, I can describe it: I am afraid to be bitten (even though it won't happen, I can still say that is what I am afraid of). So what are women afraid of when I look at them?



splendidbob said:


> You might not be able to understand this, but you need to _accept_ it.


What makes it hard to accept is that I don't know what am I supposed to do now that I made all those social mistakes. Should I transfer to yet another school for fresh start or what?



splendidbob said:


> Someone can look unfriendly and have emotional needs. They can't read your mind.


What is the definition of the word "unfriendly"? The definition I assume is "someone who doesn't want to interact". But if I don't want to interact anyway, whats the point of crossing the street in order to avoid the interaction that I presumably don't want? And besides, since it is me who doesn't want said interaction, why would it affect anyone besides me (including the woman) in a bad way? It almost seems like they think I have multiple personalities: they think one of my personalities doesn't want to interact and the other does, so they are trying to "save" my antisocial personality from the social one. I know thats probably not the case, but that is precisely why it doesn't make sense.

And in terms of what you said about them not being able to read my mind, there were girls on dating sites whom I outright TOLD that I AM capable of love, yet they were still assuming otherwise. This sounds like a completely different scenario since in one case I talk about face to face body language and in the other case I am talking about the girls online, but the logic is the same. Basically, a girl assumes I don't like her, so she "helps me out" in avoiding her, and the question is: if I really didn't like her why would I need any of her help in avoiding her, I would have avoided her all on my own!



splendidbob said:


> They will interpret your motives based off your body language, and this will be done almost entirely outside of their conscious mind.


You DID use the word MOTIVES though. So, conscious or not, what do they interpret my motives to be?



splendidbob said:


> So in this instance, which is more likely:
> 
> 1. Women are avoiding you when you make eye contact with them in the street because other men are only interested in sex
> 
> ...


Personally I feel its a combination of both, one feeding into the other. The evidence for 1 is that if I was a woman then I wouldn't get nearly as bad of a reaction and, similarly, I don't get nearly as bad a reaction from men. The evidence for 2 is that other guys don't get the reaction from girls I am getting, either. So what it feels like is that the guy with the most unusual behavior get to pay for most of the sins of male-gender. And thats why the guys that are, in fact, obsessed with sex get away with it since their behavior is normal, but then I have to be the one to be punished for their sins.

By the way when you say my behavior is unusual do you mean just staring part or do you mean other things?



splendidbob said:


> Conversations would be a fairly safe place for eye contact.


Of course! But the problem is that girls don't ever start conversation with me, and I keep hoping that they would, which is why I am staring at them in desperation for one of them, any one, to start conversation with me. So the obvious question is: why don't they ever start conersation? If they did, the staring problem would go away.



splendidbob said:


> There could be numerous reasons for this. It is a bit like seeing sheep fenced in a field and concluding from this that sheep must really love fences, because they are always near one


Okay, in case of sheep, I know what the real explanation is. Now, what is the explanation in case of men and women?


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

causalset said:


> Okay how about making eye contact with a cashier or a librarian? In those cases its the same story, minus the fact that they can't really walk away, but they do their best to avoid me by looking away and pretending not to understand my Russian accent if I ask them something. I also noticed that if there is a male librarian and a female one side by side, it will almost always be the male one who will try to help me or, if by some luck, female one will start helping me but I will need more than just 10 seconds of help, the male one will usually take over. How do you interpret that kind of pattern?


Do you look at the male librarian the same way as the female one? What are you thinking about when you look at the female one? Are you trying to make eye contact with her? Are you trying with the male?



causalset said:


> But you can deviate in either good or bad direction. So why do people assume that deviating is always bad?


They aren't consciously assuming anything, they subconsciously notice a variation outside the normal behaviour and this variation raises a red flag, but it is outside their conscious reasoning (mostly). They don't think "this guy made eye contact for too long, he is going to assault me", they just think "oh, this guy seems a bit off", because their subconscious has interpreted the slightly unusual behaviour.

You don't seem to even believe unconscious communication even exists, but you _have to trust me_ that it is there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscious_communication



causalset said:


> I understand what it means to be instinctively afraid of something. Like for example I am afraid of dogs because back when I was 6 years old I walked into a neighbors appartment and the dog bit me. Logically I know dogs don't bite but I am still afraid. However, if you ask me what am I afraid about, I can describe it: I am afraid to be bitten (even though it won't happen, I can still say that is what I am afraid of). So what are women afraid of when I look at them?


They aren't "afraid" necessarily, they just unconsciously sense something is unusual, and avoid just in case. This might not even be conscious, they just (for example) decide to cross the road at that moment and don't even know why.

I _get this all the time_. I look slightly intimidating (esp when bearded). People avoid the **** out of me, people sometimes overly apologise around me, because I look quite sinister :lol. They aren't thinking "this guy looks like he is going to assault me", they just likely get an automatic "beware" signal from their subconscious and they act accordingly.



causalset said:


> What makes it hard to accept is that I don't know what am I supposed to do now that I made all those social mistakes. Should I transfer to yet another school for fresh start or what?


No, because people aren't _actually_ afraid of you, at worst they have a "be a bit wary" kind of feeling.

Like I say, I intimidate people. I recently started doing exposure therapy in my local supermarket and started being a bit more chatty and friendly with the cashiers. They are used to me now and instead of it just being absolute silence (and the odd negative look) they now smile and are friendly. The initial body language signals (which are just warnings) have been overwritten, they aren't getting the warnings because they have learned the warning was an error. You probably need to work on your communication (and I don't know how people with aspergers do this, but I imagine there are therapies / practice / learning you can do to improve). But you need to first understand how non verbal communication works on an intellectual level, if you are going to replicate it, I suspect.



causalset said:


> What is the definition of the word "unfriendly"? The definition I assume is "someone who doesn't want to interact". But if I don't want to interact anyway, whats the point of crossing the street in order to avoid the interaction that I presumably don't want? And besides, since it is me who doesn't want said interaction, why would it affect anyone besides me (including the woman) in a bad way? It almost seems like they think I have multiple personalities: they think one of my personalities doesn't want to interact and the other does, so they are trying to "save" my antisocial personality from the social one. I know thats probably not the case, but that is precisely why it doesn't make sense.


They can't read your mind. This is what they think, roughly, more or less:

"He seems a bit off, I will cross over the road just in case".

That's it.

They don't think:

"That man looked at me for too long, he is unfriendly. I don't like unfriendly people and don't want to interact with them, but, if he is unfriendly then he wouldn't want to talk to me, so its ok, I might as well stay on this side of the road".

Why? Because a massive part of our brain evolved to handle this stuff automatically, it does its work then spits out "seems a bit off" for our conscious brains to make a decision on. Do you drive? Do you make every single calculation about distance, speed etc, or does your subconscious just do all the grunt work for you? It is the same with communication. I don't know too much about aspergers, but from what I understand this capacity is somehow limited, so communications for you would be like constantly learning to drive.. your subconscious isn't able to take over the grunt work and you are constantly having to do it all with your conscious brain. *But because you don't understand it, you are assuming everyone else also does this, they don't. Their brains easily pick up non verbal cues and they expend 0 conscious effort to do it.*



causalset said:


> And in terms of what you said about them not being able to read my mind, there were girls on dating sites whom I outright TOLD that I AM capable of love, yet they were still assuming otherwise.


How do you know they assumed otherwise? Because they didn't want to date you? Are you sure _that_ is the reason they didn't want to date you? (if you told them on a dating site you were capable of love, they wouldn't want to date you because that would be a strange thing to say on a dating site )



causalset said:


> Basically, a girl assumes I don't like her, so she "helps me out" in avoiding her, and the question is: if I really didn't like her why would I need any of her help in avoiding her, I would have avoided her all on my own!


No, she just gets "seems a bit off, avoid" bubbling up from her subconscious.

This is of course all assuming that you aren't just applying confirmation bias to these encounters, and noticing the instances where this behaviour occurs over the instances it doesn't (i.e. seeing what you want to see), we all do this.



causalset said:


> I don't get nearly as bad a reaction from men.


This evidence is faulty though, because _you purposefully try to make eye contact with women_ on the street, and you don't to men, i.e. your behaviour is different for both, which is likely why you are getting different reactions.



causalset said:


> The evidence for 2 is that other guys don't get the reaction from girls I am getting, either. So what it feels like is that the guy with the most unusual behavior get to pay for most of the sins of male-gender. And thats why the guys that are, in fact, obsessed with sex get away with it since their behavior is normal, but then I have to be the one to be punished for their sins.


The most likely reason other guys don't get this reaction, is because their behaviour isn't being interpreted as slightly unusual. It obviously isn't because women can tell they are obsessed with sex and you aren't (so they treat you worse).



causalset said:


> By the way when you say my behavior is unusual do you mean just staring part or do you mean other things?


I don't know, because I haven't seen you. Staring at women, on purpose, on the street likely isn't going to be interpreted positively though. The only eye contact that is usually made on the street is very brief. Anything beyond this and a very different message is being sent.



causalset said:


> Of course! But the problem is that girls don't ever start conversation with me, and I keep hoping that they would, which is why I am staring at them in desperation for one of them, any one, to start conversation with me. So the obvious question is: why don't they ever start conersation? If they did, the staring problem would go away.


You need to start the convo. Staring at them is making them cross the street, you should try a different approach 



causalset said:


> Okay, in case of sheep, I know what the real explanation is. Now, what is the explanation in case of men and women?


Well, my point here is that because there is a whole world of unconscious communication that you don't seem to believe exists, you are getting the causation wrong. You aren't seeing the true causes and are constantly making the equivalent of the mistake that the sheep must enjoy hanging around fences because they always stand next to them.

Unconscious communication is the piece of the puzzle you are missing.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> Do you look at the male librarian the same way as the female one? What are you thinking about when you look at the female one? Are you trying to make eye contact with her? Are you trying with the male?


Oftentimes I deliberately look at the space right between the two librarians thinking "lets see which of them would respond, I hope that would be the female one" and usually neither of them respond for few seconds but then finally the male one responds.



splendidbob said:


> You don't seem to even believe unconscious communication even exists, but you _have to trust me_ that it is there.


I do believe in it, which is precisely why I am complaining. If there was no unconscious communication then I could have changed everything I say, problem solved. But because there is unconscious communication thats why I am stuck where I am. Thats why I am so frustrated, because unconscious communication is something I can't even control, so its not my fault I unconsciously communicate what I do, which makes it so unfair.



splendidbob said:


> They aren't "afraid" necessarily, they just unconsciously sense something is unusual, and avoid just in case.


Okay I just google "women are afraid of strange men" here is the first link I found https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliegerst...for-our-safety?utm_term=.je2aq4wWv#.grVnmx8Qa which makes it sound VERY conscious. You can find a lot more links if you google this.



splendidbob said:


> People avoid the **** out of me, people sometimes overly apologise around me, because I look quite sinister :lol.


In my case they don't over-apologize: on the contrary they go out of their way for their sentences to be as short as possible if they have to say anything at all, or usually avoid talking altogether. If I say something they pretend not to understand my accent and give me silent response (well not all the time but good 30% of the time)



splendidbob said:


> How do you know they assumed otherwise? Because they didn't want to date you? Are you sure _that_ is the reason they didn't want to date you? (if you told them on a dating site you were capable of love, they wouldn't want to date you because that would be a strange thing to say on a dating site )


There was one girl that actually asked me if I am capable of love because presumably Sheldon wasn't. I haven't watched Big Bang theory so I have no idea; but even I, with my Asperger, know this show is a big joke, but apparently that girl doesn't. Well I thought it was supposed to be people with Asperger who don't have a sense of humor? So how come I had to explain to a normal girl that this show was a joke? In any case that girl ended up not dating me because I started throwing tantrums about it instead of explaining it calmly, but still I have a sense that she was already leaning in this direction anyway. She asked me to give examples of when I fell in love in the past. Also when I told her how I feel bad that I was rejected by a sister of a senator in 2005 and then by Miss Nebraska in 2014, she said that she felt like I didn't have concept of love and only knew about checklists. But doesn't she remember how everyone wanted to date the most popular kid in high school? Does it mean they were all like Sheldon? Obviously not. Shallow, yes, robot-like, no! Now, I realize that I am not in high school any more: I am in my 30-s; but then she could have said I was immature (which is true by the way), but instead of saying that, she decided to say that I am a robot like Sheldon. And finally, when I mentioned to her how I only date White women she said that it is "insensitive" which she used as another evidence for my not having feelings and being like Sheldon. But there are plenty of people who only date their own race, and they are not all like Sheldon! So its like due to my telling her my label I was constantly on trial for being like Sheldon each time I were to express NORMAL and COMMON types of preferences (as shallow as they might be).

And then there was a different girl, whom I knew a lot longer (whereas the girl described above was only one day, the other girl I talked to on duration of few years). So with that other girl at first she told me that she doesn't want long distance relationship, I was okay with that, so we were just friends. Then she was in abusive relationship with someone who later turned out to be a repeated sex offender which she didn't know, and I was supporting her throughout this relationship. At the same time I was talking about my own relationships -- which weren't nearly as bad -- and she was supportive of me too. Then, once she was out of her relationship, she started to express feelings towards me, but I didn't reciprocate them for two reasons: first of all even though she weren't in the relationship any more, I still was, and secondly she told me in the very beginning of our knowing each other that we are just friends, so I was assuming that would be the case unless she EXPLICITLY says otherwise. I guess I was too scared of rejection thats why. But then when she withdrew her attention I coudn't help but ask why and she said it probably won't work out. Now she indicated that I am incapable of emotions in two ways. First of all she said that I am a scientist and she needs an artist so that her emotions (since she is an artist) can be matched. But you see scientist/artist thing is a huge understatement. Because scientists DO have emotions. So what she REALLY meant was that I don't have emotions due to Asperger, and replacing "Asperger" with "scientist" was just her way of not hurting me since she thought htat, as someone with Asperger, and presumably unaware of emoitons, I would actually buy that excuse. And the other thing that she said is that she wants to "feel loved". But wait a second, I do love her, enough so to OBSESS about her. So that was when I went into intense conversation trying to tell her that Asperger doesn't stop me from being able to love and the reason I didn't express it had nothing to do with lack of ability to love but rather with fear of rejection, but she just kept reiterating her decision.


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## Malek (Oct 4, 2012)

Every human has emotional needs more or less.


Though I wish I didn't, life would be so much more easier and efficient if I didn't allow my emotions to cloud my judgment' heh.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

@causalset I am not saying women avoid odd men purely with their unconscious, in reality thing are much murkier and there isn't a clear cut off point. I just wanted to explain to you why you are making these mistaken ideas, and I think it's because you aren't aware how much unconscious social cognition people without aspergers do. I suspect you tend to try to empathise how they are thinking, but when you do so, you imagine with your own though processes (which are different to theirs). But you see, other people process things very differently, so your attempts to understand why they act the way they do will be inaccurate as you aren't factoring all the subconscious communication.

This isn't your fault, and really it is all you can do, but I think you would benefit from putting these behaviours in the "it's something I can't easily follow" box rather than trying to understand it with your own thinking processes. Does this make sense?

I have a lot of sympathy for you, btw. Like I say, social interactions for you must be something akin to me being stuck in "learning to drive" mode. In social interactions where my subconscious just takes over, and can easily read people, for you, I suspect that capacity is diminished, so it must be very difficult to navigate through.

I don't know what I could suggest to help you. I don't think that trying to work out these behaviours in the way you have been is going to be very successful though, because you aren't factoring in such a big piece of the puzzle.

Are there any therapies or techniques for aspergers that can assist in reading and interpreting these kinds of subconscious cues? Because I strongly suspect this is where you should be focusing your energies.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Disregarding the religious stuff (because I can't be bothered,) it's not unusual for men to want an emotional relationship as well. Men aren't sex robots.


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## Kilgore Trout (Aug 10, 2014)

I understand what you mean. I think your problem is that you are more decent than most people but are treated the same. I think of myself as someone who has more strict moral values than most people(I'm not religious but doing the right thing is important to me). Ever since I was a kid I have refrained from doing stuff that others carelessly do and it bothers me a lot to see that I am being treated at the same level as them. 

In my society when I communicate with people they treat me as someone who is likely to lie, because most people are likely to lie. They treat me as someone who is likely to cut the line, because most people are likely to cut the line. etc.

It bothers me a lot that my efforts to do the right thing are completely unappreciated. It is part of having a moral code that differs from the majority. You should either adopt the norms of your society or keep feeling like this.


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## 8888 (Oct 16, 2014)

I'm a woman and I can tell you that's what I would look for in a partner, someone who doesn't just want sex. Keep looking, you'll find someone. The whole men don't have emotional needs thing is just a myth. Sure generally men are a bit more into sex but not all are.


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## Carolyne (Sep 20, 2016)

causalset said:


> Okay I just google "women are afraid of strange men" here is the first link I found https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliegerst...for-our-safety?utm_term=.je2aq4wWv#.grVnmx8Qa which makes it sound VERY conscious. You can find a lot more links if you google this.


Yes, women take a lot of precautions about dangerous men, and it's something we put a lot of conscious and unconscious thought into, but that is not what you were asking and not what bob was trying to describe. You wanted to know why *you* were getting treated as dangerous while other men aren't. I don't really agree with bob, I just think you make completely bizarre assumptions and illogical leaps all over the place when describing other people's thoughts. You do it constantly in all your threads. Like "Not friendly" = "Not having emotional needs", that is not the definition of "not friendly" and I have no clue how you got that idea so any conclusion you reach following that line of logic is wrong.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Carolyne said:


> Yes, women take a lot of precautions about dangerous men, and it's something we put a lot of conscious and unconscious thought into, but that is not what you were asking and not what bob was trying to describe. You wanted to know why *you* were getting treated as dangerous while other men aren't.


I think those two things are interrelated though. The reason I am treated as dangerous and most men aren't is because I appear more off than most men. But the reason why off implies dangerous specifically when it comes to womens perception of men is because of the behavior of men as a whole. Thats why I talk about both.

But in any case it is very frustrating to be treated as dangerous when I know for a fact that I am not, thats what drives me asking those questions.



Carolyne said:


> I don't really agree with bob, I just think you make completely bizarre assumptions and illogical leaps all over the place when describing other people's thoughts. You do it constantly in all your threads. Like "Not friendly" = "Not having emotional needs", that is not the definition of "not friendly" and I have no clue how you got that idea so any conclusion you reach following that line of logic is wrong.


Okay, but then how would you describe the typical attitude of "not friendly" person? I would have thought someone not friendly wants to be left alone. Since you say its not the case, how else would you describe the motives and intentions of someone not friendly?


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## Carolyne (Sep 20, 2016)

causalset said:


> I think those two things are interrelated though. The reason I am treated as dangerous and most men aren't is because I appear more off than most men. But the reason why off implies dangerous specifically when it comes to womens perception of men is because of the behavior of men as a whole. Thats why I talk about both.
> 
> But in any case it is very frustrating to be treated as dangerous when I know for a fact that I am not, thats what drives me asking those questions.


I'm actually going to partly agree with some of what you've written. Yes, you are suffering because of other men. You are having a more difficult time with women because other men rape, harass, and kill women. If we lived in a utopia where crime and evil didn't exist, then nothing you do would be scary to women because they'd have nothing to fear.

However, this is just life. You have a 10+ character password on this site because hackers exist. You have a lock on your door and have to carry around annoying keys because burglars exist. That's the world we live in and you need to just adapt to it. If you don't want people to think you're a burglar, don't sneak onto their property at night, if you don't want people to think you're a sexual predator, don't stare down women without talking to them.



causalset said:


> Okay, but then how would you describe the typical attitude of "not friendly" person? I would have thought someone not friendly wants to be left alone. Since you say its not the case, how else would you describe the motives and intentions of someone not friendly?


People generally aren't so one-dimensional, someone might be an ******* to you but be a pretty good father to his kids.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Men aren't sex robots.


Sadly many are.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

ljubo said:


> Sadly many are.


Oh well, do they do custom designs then? I guess I wouldn't mind collecting some cute robots. I have some 'reference images'


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## ThatGuy11200 (Sep 3, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Oh well, do they do custom designs then? I guess I wouldn't mind collecting some cute robots. I have some 'reference images'


You wouldn't want one. You'll often have to purchase certain attachments to plug into the rear socket. And they may require frequent oiling.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

ThatGuy11200 said:


> You wouldn't want one. *You'll often have to purchase certain attachments to plug into the rear socket.* And they may require frequent oiling.


:blank

I can work with that.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> Well if men have nothing better to do than sex, no wonder no woman takes them seriously, and I don't get them either. But who cares, they can all get lost as far as I am concerned, the only problem I have with them is that they ruin it for me. Here I am, I want real emotional connection, yet my emotional needs aren't taken seriously because people assume I am after sex when I am not -- all because of those jerks.


Ok - you seem to believe you are better than those guys who only want sex, and that they are jerks because of it.

You claim they ruin it for you. But wouldn't/shouldn't you be having a field day with the ladies then, if those guys are all so bad and you are superior?

To say you aren't after sex isn't being honest. Of course you are. But don't think that you should have some special status because you want it in the context of a relationship. Not every woman thinks guys are bad persons for wanting sex even if it's outside a relationship.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> You claim they ruin it for you. But wouldn't/shouldn't you be having a field day with the ladies then, if those guys are all so bad and you are superior?


The reason its not the case is that there is a misconception that bad social skills is a hallmark of only wanting sex. So erroneously women assume I am the one only after sex and other guys aren't. But in reality it is just the opposite. I saw guys who were so OBVIOUSLY after sex yet women talked to them looking all naive acting as if they were actually genuinely interested in them. On the other hand when it comes to me women all assume I just want sex when that is not the case at all.



caveman8 said:


> To say you aren't after sex isn't being honest. Of course you are.


Like I said, I don't believe in sex before marriage. So that is a proof I am not. In fact during two of my three relationships the women were trying to get me to have sex with them, and I was the one declining. To clarify, in both cases they agreed not to have sex, but changed their mind afterwords. In case of the first girl, I dated her for 8 months, and she started to try go get me to have sex probalby 5 months into relationship. With the second girl, I dated her for 2 years, and she started trying to get me to have sex a year into relationship. In both cases I declined.



caveman8 said:


> But don't think that you should have some special status because you want it in the context of a relationship. Not every woman thinks guys are bad persons for wanting sex even if it's outside a relationship.


Well, leaving the "status" question aside, I can say this: my reasons for a relationship are move valid than most guys are. Particularly because, apart from wanting sex, most guys aren't interested in genuine connection with women anyway, they just want to use women as objects. But in my case I am interested in genuine connection with a woman.

If you are going to say its not the case, then where did women get an idea that there are men not interested in genuine connection with them? Obviously it applies to SOME Of them. Look at this thread of mine: https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/getting-women-to-approach-me.16590/ Why did women decide I am not interested in genuine connection? What I am usually told is that this is how my first post sounded. Well, try to re-read my first post and read the exact thing it says -- making sure not to add any assumptions. Did I say I am not interested in women as human beings? Nope I didn't. The reason they made this assumption is due to *social context* in which *other guys* who express similar desires as me aren't interested in genuinely getting to know women. Thats where I got an idea that they aren't.

And by the way I can back up what women say on my own experience myself. Two years ago I have seen my landlords ex-boyfriend, as well as my roommate, bragging about the way they were talking to a certain cashier in caffeteria, describing her in a purely physical terms. Yet that same cashier totally ignored me (other than the fact that she got me to talk to some schizophrenic guy because she thought we had a lot in common which I took as a personal insult). And another example might be Trump claiming that what he said in his tapes is just a "lockeroom conversation". Well IF he is right, it means that A LOT of men talk the way he does, yet I never do that, so again I am better than most men.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

Not wanting sex before marriage isn't the same as not wanting sex.

I don't think bad social skills are a hallmark of only wanting sex. And I'm sure women know what the guys chatting them up are after.

Again - your thinking that your reasons are more "valid" than most guys needs to be let go of. False - do you think all women prefer guys with your reasoning?

Yes, the cashier knew the other guys looked at her. What makes you think she didn't enjoy it? You think women are these perfect things who would never enjoy being checked out unless there was a "genuine connection" or something? Those guys were loose and having fun, and she could sense it. You are too serious from the get-go.

Again - if you are better than most men, you should have no trouble getting someone.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> Not wanting sex before marriage isn't the same as not wanting sex.


Well, being a Christian, I also don't believe in divorce which, in turn, makes me pretty scared of marriage. So I know that if I do start to date a girl, I won't marry her until at least a couple of years down the road (I also want to bring my academic career in order before I get married). I do know I want to get married eventually though, since I want children to continue my genes, but I want to postpone it as far as possible. Yet at the same time I don't want to break up either because breakups are very painful (as evident from my past relationships) and they ultimately make it feel like the entire time I put forth to the relationship was a waste. So, logically, this means I do want the relationship to lead to marriage, but I would rather not think about it because marriage is scary (just like I dont want to think about the time when I would turn 40, which is only 3 years from now, since being 40 is scarry too, married or not).

So that is why the fact that I don't believe in sex before marriage implies that sex isn't my main focus.

But in any case, even if I did want to rush marriage. Still, wanting to marry is far more valid than simply wanting one night stand which is what most guys seem to want.



caveman8 said:


> Yes, the cashier knew the other guys looked at her. What makes you think she didn't enjoy it? You think women are these perfect things who would never enjoy being checked out unless there was a "genuine connection" or something?


Okay the reason I think this way is that thats what women claim they want. Now, I am not saying that I lie in order to please the women. Not at all. In my case I want genuine connection regardless. But the fact that women want it too (or at least claim to) yet they totally ignore me, is what makes it all the more painful.

So if you are saying women aren't just after "genuine connection", are you telling me that when they say they are they are lying in order to reject the guys that they don't like? Isn't it a bit hypocritical if thats the case?

By the way I am not saying they are lying. I am simply trying to make the best sense out of what you are trying to say. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding you.



caveman8 said:


> Those guys were loose and having fun, and she could sense it. You are too serious from the get-go.


Actually this is precisely why I think my reason for wanting to talk to her is more valid than theirs. In my case, my entire self esteem is at stake; in their case they are just having fun. What is more important, just leisurly fun you would forget the next day, or your entire self esteem?

And by the way, speaking of "being lose and having fun", I been to the other side before I was 21 (then at 21 my self esteem was ruined -- a different story). So, for example, when I was 19, I was taking a certain physics lab where we had to operate with circuits. The lab lasted like 4 hours which was far more time than I needed to get my assignment done, so I decided to use extra time to mess around. One thing I did was I took 9 volt battery and gave myself a "shock therapy" by connecting wires to my head, and also I hooked some other wires to the device that can measure currents and I was looking at the currents that my head naturally produces and then I would give myself a shock therapy and see how the currents would change. Now I was trying to give shock therapy to other students too, most of whom declined; but then there was one girl who actually liked it and so me and her were messing around together the whole class. No, I didn't ask her out -- back then I didn't think I needed a girlfriend, I thought studies were all that matters -- and it was the only time I messed around with her, so I have no idea what she thinks of me.

Here is a point: lets suppose that there was some other guy in the class, who had self esteem problems and was desperate for a girlfriend, yet that girl were to totally ignore him and instead talk to me because I am more fun. Well I would say it would be unfair towards that other guy. And I am not saying that guys needs are the only ones that matter. The other point I want to make is that the guy that is desperate is far more capable of appreciating womans attention and making woman feel loved than the guy that is just having fun time. I mean I can honestly tell you that if any girl were to love me back when I was 19, she would have had her heart broken. On the other hand, if the girl were to love me right now, I would appreciate every bit of it. So doesn't she want to feel appreciated? I thought lack of appreciation is one of the things women complain about? Well they would get lots of appreciation by being with someone desperate, as I am right now.



caveman8 said:


> Again - if you are better than most men, you should have no trouble getting someone.


"Better" and "more deserving of women" are two different things. Am I "better" than I was at 19? Nope. Not academically anyway. I would give anything and everything to be 19 again, just for the fact that I was doing so much better academically back then. However, am I "more deserving" of women now than back then? Oh yes, because right now I would appreciate women the way back then I would never dream of.

As far as your point that if I was more deserving of women I would have found someone, the thing is that women aren't mind readers. How would you explain why women rejected me on the basis that presumably I don't like them when I just explained how I do? Or why do women cross the street when I look at them despite the fact that I have no intention to grope them? That makes it seem like them not being mind readers is the main problem. Unless you can explain to me how my actual intentions -- the way I just described them to be -- would make women want to say/do what they do.


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## Tetragammon (Jun 2, 2015)

Just stopping by to say that I'm one of "those jerks!" I really hate the tremendous hassle a relationship brings, always having to talk to and comfort your SO, worrying all the time about what she thinks or doesn't think, etc. It's too much socialization for my brain. I just want to experience real sex for once before I die.

And IMO marriage before ever having sex is a TERRIBLE idea because you have no way to gauge sexual compatibility beforehand -- which is a major contributing factor in divorce. But I guess most Christians don't take any moral issue with divorce, eh? :roll

Also I literally cannot believe anyone who wants a 20-year-old girl when they're 37 but says it's not about sex at all. Riiiiight. Have you ever actually been close to a girl that young? I have; there's way too much disconnect in an age gap that large. She's young and looking for adventure or a "fling" while you're looking to settle down. And the chances that she's only in it for your money or something equally superficial skyrockets. If you were actually as smart as you say you are, that should be a no-brainer -- even for someone with SA. If you're gonna troll then seriously dude, be more subtle about it!

Carry on. opcorn


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Tetragammon said:


> Just stopping by to say that I'm one of "those jerks!" I really hate the tremendous hassle a relationship brings, always having to talk to and comfort your SO, worrying all the time about what she thinks or doesn't think, etc. It's too much socialization for my brain. I just want to experience real sex for once before I die.


Well I am just the opposite to you in this regard. To me "what does the woman think" is the MAIN thing I am obsessing about -- even when it comes to the women I occasionally interact with, such as librarians, and of course it applies to women I date ten-fold. Now here is the irony: based on what I heard, it is usually the women that want to discuss things and its usually men who don't have patience for that. In my case its just the opposite: when I interact with women (well I am referring to the ones on dating sites, I don't know how to approach women otherwise) its me who always wants to dissect things and its them who say they don't want to talk about it, and are eventually pushed away by my insisting on discussion the issue. So, given that in all other situations its the men who don't want to talk, shouldn't women be greatful to find someone who wants to talk about things, just like they do? But nope, in my case it all of a sudden becomes a bad thing. I guess similar irony applies to emotional validation as well: usually its the women who want emotional validation and complain that men don't care about it, but in my case I am a man who wants validation but women find it too much to handle.



Tetragammon said:


> And IMO marriage before ever having sex is a TERRIBLE idea because you have no way to gauge sexual compatibility beforehand -- which is a major contributing factor in divorce. But I guess most Christians don't take any moral issue with divorce, eh? :roll


I agree that divorce rate among Christian is horrible. But still, if you look at more devoted Christians, they don't believe in divorce, yet they still somehow manage. Thats why I am saying if they can do it, I should be able to do it too. Besides, up until 20-th century, both sex before marriage AND divorce were really rare. So how were people able to manage back then? If they could do it, we should be able to do it too. I would blame media and other ungodly influences as to why a lot of people don't.



Tetragammon said:


> Also I literally cannot believe anyone who wants a 20-year-old girl when they're 37 but says it's not about sex at all. Riiiiight.


1. I didn't say 20 year old. I said "in her 20s". This would include all the way up to 29. Incidentally, back when I was 22, I tried to date a girl that was 27, and when I was 26 I was trying to date 29 year old and also 31 year old. All I am saying is that my age preferences didn't change between then and now. So as of now I would be perfectly happy with a woman who is 27 or 29, thats still 20s. And no I don't plan to dump her when she becomes 30+ either: once I have experienced what its like to date someone in her 20s, I am perfectly fine with us both growing older and continuing to grow closer to each other as we age. My regret is that I don't know what its like to be with someone in her 20s (the aforementioned women left me before anything had chance to really develop, and other girls in their 20s that did date me had serious issues which precluded it from counting as "typical experience of 20 year olds"). So thats why I want to find a girl who is, say, 27, so that I can truly experience what I am missing out on.

2. Liking women in their 20s have nothing to do with sex. For instance I enjoy if I am being helped by a female librarian in her 20s, or female waitress in her 20s, even though I don't hope to have sex with either one of them. Ask yourself this question: if there is nothing you like about women in their 20s OTHER THAN sex, what would make sex with them more enjoyable anyway? I guess I don't understand the way sexual attraction works in others since, apparently, misogynists want to have sex with women whom they supposedly hate. Well thats not the way I operate. In my case I have to LIKE the woman in order for sex with her to be enjoyable. So yes, I like women in their 20s REGARDLESS OF SEX and only THAT is why sex with them (if I weren't religious) "would have" been more enjoyable too.



Tetragammon said:


> She's young and looking for adventure or a "fling" while you're looking to settle down.


Actually that is precisely the reason why I want someone young. I didn't have any adventures back when I was young (I was cut off from social life due to my Asperger) thats why I want adventures right now.

And no, I am not ready to settle down. In order to settle down, I need a real job. Now, I always wanted to be a theoretical physicist all my life. But in order to be a professor I need 15 or 20 publications. Now I have 26 papers posted on arxiv.org but it doesn't count because they are not peer reviewed. So my task is to basically get peer reviewed journals to accept those papers. So far I got only 3 of them accepted into peer reviewed journals (first one was 2009, second one 2014, and the third one earlier this year, 2016). This is clearly not enough. Now, what others do when they can't become professors is that they either go work in industry or go teach in community college. But I don't want to do that because like I said being a theoretical physicist was my dream since I was 9 years old and I don't want to give up on it. So I decided to go back to graduate school, and to make it look legit I went for math PhD, while my first PhD was in physics, so its a different subject. But I still intend to stay in physics: there is such a thing as "mathematical physics" and while most of the ppl that do that are in physics departments, there are some that do that that are in math departments. What I am hoping to get out of graduate school is for my supervisor to help me edit my papers so that they get published. I mean I been asking various other people to edit my papers but they kept postponing it indefinitely. I hope my Ph.D. supervisor won't postpone it since it would be his job. That, and the other bonus of being in grad school is that I get paid for being TA so that I don't need to look for any other jobs and can focus on studies -- which I need, since I need to get all those papers published.

Anyway, long story short: no I am not ready to settle down, not until I am a professor. And yes I do look for adventure since I missed out on it before. So thats why the woman in her 20s would be better match for me from those two points of view.



Tetragammon said:


> And the chances that she's only in it for your money or something equally superficial skyrockets.


Well as you might have gathered I don't have that much money: my salary as a TA is only 1300 a month, and I have to pay 570 a month rent at the dorm, the rest I need for food. So I guess this part is covered, unless the girl assumes I am richer than I am or something.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> Well I am just the opposite to you in this regard. To me "what does the woman think" is the MAIN thing I am obsessing about -- even when it comes to the women I occasionally interact with, such as librarians, and of course it applies to women I date ten-fold. Now here is the irony: based on what I heard, it is usually the women that want to discuss things and its usually men who don't have patience for that. In my case its just the opposite: when I interact with women (well I am referring to the ones on dating sites, I don't know how to approach women otherwise) its me who always wants to dissect things and its them who say they don't want to talk about it, and are eventually pushed away by my insisting on discussion the issue. So, given that in all other situations its the men who don't want to talk, shouldn't women be greatful to find someone who wants to talk about things, just like they do? But nope, in my case it all of a sudden becomes a bad thing. I guess similar irony applies to emotional validation as well: usually its the women who want emotional validation and complain that men don't care about it, but in my case I am a man who wants validation but women find it too much to handle.


Knight in shining armor...women should be grateful...really? You think, somehow, you are the only guy out there capable of this? You seem to think discussion is the be-all end all. You forget that girls wanna have fun too?

Lol you think women are so hard up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Tetragammon (Jun 2, 2015)

causalset said:


> Now here is the irony: based on what I heard, it is usually the women that want to discuss things and its usually men who don't have patience for that.


Okay, I'll play along. I feel like you really need to stop comparing yourself to your weird perceived notions of "normal." Guys have just as many emotional needs as women, even if it's not socially kosher to talk about. The fact that you're so obsessed with "discussing" is probably a serious turn-off to most women because it comes across as creepy or weird. You seem way too forceful in your approach, too; stop "insisting" and start "suggesting."



causalset said:


> Besides, up until 20-th century, both sex before marriage AND divorce were really rare.


I don't believe that for a second. You might want to re-check your sources. Sex before marriage and divorce probably weren't publicized like today, but they were definitely around. Even in the Victorian Age, and most definitely before then.



causalset said:


> I didn't say 20 year old. I said "in her 20s".


'Kay. Not much of a difference there. Even if you get with a 29-year-old it's still an 8-year difference. And do you really think it's going to be the same as it would have been when you were in your 20's? People can't just totally ignore age and turn back time like that. It's simply not possible. You're still going to be the old guy with the younger girl.



causalset said:


> Liking women in their 20s have nothing to do with sex. For instance I enjoy if I am being helped by a female librarian in her 20s, or female waitress in her 20s, even though I don't hope to have sex with either one of them.


So... why do you "enjoy" being helped by females in their 20's? Other than physical attraction, what are the differences between a woman in her 20's and a woman in her 30's? You just like immaturity in general?

Seems to me that you're just making excuses for yourself because you're not "supposed" to want sex. Like you're coming up with these random reasons why you want a woman in her 20's when in reality you just want that sexy bod, but can't admit it, because God. lol.



causalset said:


> Actually that is precisely the reason why I want someone young. I didn't have any adventures back when I was young (I was cut off from social life due to my Asperger) thats why I want adventures right now.


So... you want to find a girl in her 20's to marry but don't want to settle down with her. You want her to be "adventurous" yet you want her to stay with you indefinitely. See the problems with this scenario yet? And what exactly are you expecting to offer an adventurous 20-something woman, if not sex? As others have suggested, you might want to do some serious work on your personality first.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

I think women in their 20s might be the wrong 'target market' for you, to be honest. They just wouldn't have the emotional maturity to deal with the stuff you're dealing with. My guy with SA is in his 20s and I reckon he's getting into something with me because I'm older and can handle his issues. He's pretty much failed with girls in their 20s. I'll just say here what I usually say to everyone - just make some friends first and see what happens from there. If you're so focused on finding a girl, you won't find her. If your values are Christian and all about abstinence, say so upfront and someone with similar values will come along. Generally there's pretty much someone for everyone (sometimes several who fit the bill), so I wouldn't worry - you'll find someone. Just work on your issues within yourself and look to make some new friends. Good luck!


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

causalset said:


> So that is why the fact that I don't believe in sex before marriage implies that sex isn't my main focus.
> 
> But in any case, even if I did want to rush marriage. Still, wanting to marry is far more valid than simply wanting one night stand which is what most guys seem to want.
> 
> ...


What does "valid" mean? Whose definition of valid are you using? If someone wants to go to a party, and someone else wants to go to the library to study, is one person's idea more "valid" than the other's?

Dude - women aren't always, nor are all women always after, "genuine connections". Please realize this. You are the guy going to the library - all the time. That is why they ignore you - loosen up.

You are the one putting your self esteem on the line - not them. They may just want to have fun, and you are spoiling it. Leisurely fun IS important.

The guy that is desperate is putting women on a pedestal. He's like a puppy dog ready to do anything for her. And there's no challenge for her. Because the guy is desperate, how do you think that makes her feel? Hey everyone, I landed this desperate guy, I'm so happy! What a winner I am!

Stop putting women on a pedestal. Tease them. Be willing to walk away. They have faults too, and aren't these perfect flowers just waiting to be swept away by someone who would "appreciate" them because, in your mind, guys who want to have fun are jerks and you're not.

No, women aren't mind readers, but that has nothing to do with why you haven't found one yet. The fact you see everything through the lens of "genuine connection" is.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Carolyne (Sep 20, 2016)

causalset said:


> Okay the reason I think this way is that thats what women claim they want. Now, I am not saying that I lie in order to please the women. Not at all. In my case I want genuine connection regardless. But the fact that women want it too (or at least claim to) yet they totally ignore me, is what makes it all the more painful.
> 
> So if you are saying women aren't just after "genuine connection", are you telling me that when they say they are they are lying in order to reject the guys that they don't like? Isn't it a bit hypocritical if thats the case?
> 
> By the way I am not saying they are lying. I am simply trying to make the best sense out of what you are trying to say. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding you.


Wanting a connection, doesn't mean you'll have one; dating requires more than just both people wanting to have an ltr. If you don't have anything in common, and your personality and opinions are gross to the woman, then you're not going to have a connection.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Going by your attitude on women and yourself OP, this is the only gf you'll come close to.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Tetragammon said:


> I don't believe that for a second. You might want to re-check your sources. Sex before marriage and divorce probably weren't publicized like today, but they were definitely around. Even in the Victorian Age, and most definitely before then.


Yes, it was around, but there were SOME people that managed to avoid doing those things, which means its not impossible.



Tetragammon said:


> 'Kay. Not much of a difference there. Even if you get with a 29-year-old it's still an 8-year difference.


The formula I once read online is age/2+7. So 37/2+7=25.5 which means I can still date women that are 26 and up. Now I am not saying that those formulas have to be correct, I mean if you take 70 year old then he would be able to date 42 year old by this formula, which seems a bit off. But in any case there should be "some" difference between 20 and 27.



Tetragammon said:


> And do you really think it's going to be the same as it would have been when you were in your 20's? People can't just totally ignore age and turn back time like that. It's simply not possible. You're still going to be the old guy with the younger girl.


I get what you mean: sort of like two of my three ex-s (the third was long distance) not taking me to their social events because they assumed I wouldn't enjoy them due to my Asperger (back when I myself was in my 20s)-- which is precisely why right now I feel like making up for it, on the first place. So I wish there was less assumptions and more communication.



Tetragammon said:


> So... why do you "enjoy" being helped by females in their 20's? Other than physical attraction, what are the differences between a woman in her 20's and a woman in her 30's? You just like immaturity in general?


I never said I like immaturity, in fact immaturity is one of the turnoffs for me. What I always liked -- both when I was 20 and right now -- is a woman in her 20s who is mature. This combination of youthful look and maturity is something I was always attracted to.

If you ask me what it is I like about youthful look if not sex, I can throw that question right back at you. Why do you enjoy sex with a woman who looks youthful? The reason you enjoy sex with her is that you like her, period. Well, if you like her period, then you would also enjoy interacting with her even if it doesn't involve sex.



Tetragammon said:


> Seems to me that you're just making excuses for yourself because you're not "supposed" to want sex. Like you're coming up with these random reasons why you want a woman in her 20's when in reality you just want that sexy bod, but can't admit it, because God. lol.


I had three relationships, first one was 1 year, the other two were 2 years each. During first two of my three relationships the girls tried to get me to have sex with them: in both cases they first agreed to never have sex, but then they changed their mind midway through the relationship. And in both cases I declined. So as you see I don't intend to have sex unless I marry. So since I don't intend to have sex without marriage and I am rather scared of marriage (because I don't believe in divorce) sex can't be my main motive.



Tetragammon said:


> So... you want to find a girl in her 20's to marry but don't want to settle down with her. You want her to be "adventurous" yet you want her to stay with you indefinitely. See the problems with this scenario yet? And what exactly are you expecting to offer an adventurous 20-something woman, if not sex? As others have suggested, you might want to do some serious work on your personality first.


I can simply refer you back to my past relationships to show you what happened. During the first relationship, which I had in 2003 -- 2004, the girl got engaged with me by the end of the year, and she wanted to marry on 07/07/07. Then I transferred schools and she wanted to move to the place of my new school half a year later which scared me (I wasn't liking her since she was treating me as inferior due to Asperger) but I didn't have guts to break up, so I simply stopped calling her or answering the phone, and then she broke up with me few months after engagement. However, I later learned that she got engaged to someone else, I am not sure exactly when, perhaps 2005-ish or something, but then in 2011 she was STILL engaged and not married yet. So I guess its her mindset that its okay to get engaged and not marry for a long time.

In any case, because I have very limitted social experience, my only knowledge of engagement was coming from my first ex (who got engaged in 2004 planning to marry in 2007) that is why when I was with second ex, in 2007 -- 2009, I was pushing her for engagement without intention to marry any time soon but rather in order to "secure the relationship" so to speak. We did get engaged, in 2008, on our anniversary. But then throughout 2009 she kept pushing for marriage and I kept trying to persuade her to postpone it. She was actually quite angry at me because I was the one who kept pushing her to get engaged, and then when she finally agreed and we got engaged, I didn't want to marry, so she claimed I lied to her. But I didn't lie: like I said my only knowledge of the CONCEPT of engagement was coming from my own ex, so I simply didn't know that most people other than my first ex tend to marry soon after engagement.

As far as my third ex, like I said, our relationship was long distance. The difference between our ages is only 2 years, yet she still lives with her parents despite being in her 30-s, thats because her family are devoted Southern Baptist and are over protective. That is also part of why the relationship was long distance: they wouldn't let her fly to see me unless I can fly to see her, and, coupled with the fact that I was in India during first 1 1/2 years of our relationship and she was in Nebraska, I could only see her twice during the last 1/2 year of our relationship when I was in the states and then she broke up with me after my second visit. In any case, we DID discuss marriage, and she promised to marry me: in fact almost every chat she would end by repeating "I DO". But at the same time our agreement to marry was supposed to be a secret from the rest of her family since she said her family won't approve unless I get a stable job (and like I explained I don't have a stable job yet). So once again we were planing to take a long time before we actually marry, *unless* her family would step up and tell her to find someone with whom she can marry sooner, in which case she would have to listed to them. Well she never told me why she broke up with me (probably because I would have been arguing with her if she did) so its possible she broke up because of the considerations just stated, although I am leaning to think that it had to do with my doing something wrong that she was "picky" about, such as for example posting "I ****en love science" on facebook without noticing F word and her making big deal about it (just one example out of several).

Anyway, back to your question: what I want is a commitment that eventually leads to marriage, without any rush.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

caveman8 said:


> What does "valid" mean? Whose definition of valid are you using? If someone wants to go to a party, and someone else wants to go to the library to study, is one person's idea more "valid" than the other's?
> 
> Dude - women aren't always, nor are all women always after, "genuine connections". Please realize this. You are the guy going to the library - all the time. That is why they ignore you - loosen up.
> 
> ...


Its funny you brought up library example because you probably meant it to be allegoric but in my case it is also true in a literal sense: I tend to study all day long and people falsely assume thats all I am ever interested in doing. But in any case, to answer your question, yes, going to the library is more improtant than a party. Especially if you have an exam coming along and you fail that exam because of the party. Although in my case going to the parties became a "project" all on its own, since this is something I completely missed out on. Thats why I am using "library" appraoch regarding my "crisis with parties" so to speak, and think that solving my "project" of being invited to the parties (along with my "projects" of getting good grades) is more important than other people who "just" want to full around without anything to gain out of it.

I do see what you mean though: your advice is that I should loosen up. The real question is HOW? If people start joking around with me, I would loosen up real fast. But they don't. Hence the perpetual circle I am trying to break.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

Carolyne said:


> Wanting a connection, doesn't mean you'll have one; dating requires more than just both people wanting to have an ltr. If you don't have anything in common, and your personality and opinions are gross to the woman, then you're not going to have a connection.


Each person, including me, is multidimensional. There probably WOULD be things we find in common if girls were to look at all aspects of me. My problem is that once they see a "bad" aspect, they don't want to look at anything else. Thats why a common advice is "bring good foot forward" while my recurrent mistake is that I tend to do just the opposite: I tend to bring my "bad" foot forward since thats the foot that bothers me the most and the one I need the most "help" with. And then I can't get people to understand "hey I have good foot too I just brought the bad foot first because I am stupid".

And by the way speaking of bad foot I want to change it too, thats what self improvement is all about, but that is the other thing others don't get.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

MaggieRose said:


> I think women in their 20s might be the wrong 'target market' for you, to be honest. They just wouldn't have the emotional maturity to deal with the stuff you're dealing with. My guy with SA is in his 20s and I reckon he's getting into something with me because I'm older and can handle his issues. He's pretty much failed with girls in their 20s. I'll just say here what I usually say to everyone - just make some friends first and see what happens from there. If you're so focused on finding a girl, you won't find her. If your values are Christian and all about abstinence, say so upfront and someone with similar values will come along. Generally there's pretty much someone for everyone (sometimes several who fit the bill), so I wouldn't worry - you'll find someone. Just work on your issues within yourself and look to make some new friends. Good luck!


Thanks for the advice.

I guess as far as "friendship" goes, I read online a lot of stuff as to how it is bad to fall into "friend zone". Whenever I bring it up to people, they also assume I am after sex, but I am not. There are other things, besides sex, that distinguish relationship from friendship: such as committment and so forth. So does the friend zone concept apply to those things too?

By the way, personally, I think it would make the most sense if the relationships were to be built on friendship. After all, don't you need to have a lot of things in common in order for relationship to be meaningful? Yet, paradoxically, I read online that friendship and relationship are somehow incompatible. Do you understand why that is the case?

In any case, my feelings towards friendship are pretty mixed. On the one hand, like I said, I don't want friend zone to preclude relationship. But, on the other hand, if I am not going to have a relationship anyway, friendship is better than nothing at all. So seeing how I am completely lonely and desperate, I would gladly take friend zone as a source of some sort of happiness while I am still single. But what do you think about this?

But in any case, leaving this question aside, SUPPOSE I did want to make just friends. I can't even succeed even in that. In fact I can't even have a girl say hello to me! Which leads to one fthe other questions I been asking: why do women find me so disgusting they wouldn't even say hello? Or are you saying that women in their 20s aren't friend material either and I should make friends with women my own age?


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

I think you could *start* with friendship. The guy I am love with started out as just another guy in my dojo. I started being friendly to him and he to me and we realised in time it was something more. I don't think a relationship can be forced, and nor can friendship for that matter, but you do need to get out there and make some friends before anything else can evolve. I guess that's what I'm saying. 

And if there is no 'spark', at least you will have made some friends, and they have friends, whom you can meet... 

I think you should make friends with people of all ages. All ages have something to offer. 

I think you are over-thinking and it's quite probably that women don't find you disgusting. They may be shy, or nervous, or whatever. Try to cultivate more positive thoughts about yourself, have some cognitive behavioural therapy sessions. How you feel about yourself is the most important thing. 

Good luck!


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

causalset said:


> But then how would you explain why when you read about people talking about relationship problems, you will find women seeking commitment complaining about men just wanting sex, but you would never find a post by a man seeking commitment complaining about women just wanting sex?


Because for most men, sex isn't a bad consolation prize.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

MaggieRose said:


> I think you could *start* with friendship. The guy I am love with started out as just another guy in my dojo. I started being friendly to him and he to me and we realised in time it was something more.


Like I said, I would also naturally believe that friendship should gradually evolve into relationship. My only problem is that internet says otherwise. I read on the internet some advice about "ladder theory" where it says that once you are in a "friend zone" you can't evolve into relationship? How would you make sense of it?

But in any case, putting this aside, I can't seem to even make friends either. No woman ever approaches me and talks to me (and yes I want women to be the first to approach me, both for relationship and for friendship). Thats why I think there must be something about my body language that scares them off.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

srschirm said:


> Because for most men, sex isn't a bad consolation prize.


From what I heard, men don't view sex as "consolation price" but as a prime goal -- in fact I have read about men that are scared of relationship and PREFER to have cheap sex and then dump the woman next day. I find it super-shallow, I just can't understand them, yet I have to pay the consequences of THEIR behavior.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

causalset said:


> From what I heard, men don't view sex as "consolation price" but as a prime goal -- in fact I have read about men that are scared of relationship and PREFER to have cheap sex and then dump the woman next day. I find it super-shallow, I just can't understand them, yet I have to pay the consequences of THEIR behavior.


Well, not every guy is like that. You gotta prove to the woman that you won't do that. It's no different for the rest of us guys.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

srschirm said:


> Well, not every guy is like that. You gotta prove to the woman that you won't do that. It's no different for the rest of us guys.


Yeah and the fact that I have to prove that I won't do it is really frustrating. Because in my case, apparently, I fail at proving that I won't do that -- even thought I know for a fact that I won't. And, as a result, I miss out on emotional support which is a THOUSAND TIMES MORE IMPORTANT than sex. And the reason I have to prove this on the first place is because there are other men who want sex. Thus, I am not getting the emotional support that I need (something I find really important) because some men want sex (something that is totally useless anyway).


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## thelonelystag (Jan 10, 2017)

No, it isn't unusual.

Maybe modern society with Tinder hook-ups makes it seem like it is is unusual, but no, there is nothing unusual, weird or wrong about a man pining for a real connection with a woman over pure sexual gratification.


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