# Is Manganese the solution??



## Beggiatoa

There's been a lot of talk on this board about how to maximize Dopamine levels. I think we established that there is something wrong with Dopamine homeostasis in our brains and we looked at different ways to increase this. From low dose alcohol, to copper, L-tyrosine, etc.

One little mineral has been neglected and it turns out that it is VERY important for Dop. production. This is *manganese*.

I've been using it for a few weeks now and have had amazing results. This has been better than Tyrosine, copper, Selegiline and even pramipexole. Not only do I NOT have social anxiety anymore but I have, as of late, grabbed life by the balls and I'm taking no prisoners. I am really living life to fullest.

I'd like to get a discussion going about this very important mineral.

Who's using it?


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## Beggiatoa

The upper limit for dietary intake is set at 11 mg. Some makers have gone up as high as 50 mg! But to be safe, I'd stick to 10 mg or so..

Mn seems to have a selectivity for dopamine neurons. If you research this, you'll find a lot of info. on how toxic it is. All this research though, focuses on neonates and occupational exposures from welders and water contamination so I think it's misleading. It seems Mn is very important for the production of Dop.


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## Beggiatoa

Cofactors needed to make dopamine: click here

These include magnesium, *manganese*, zinc, copper, vitamin c, folic acid, iron and B6.


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## proximo20

I have noticed that manganese rich foods are very good for the health then I remembered that manganese was one of the minerals that your hair test showed deficiency. 

I have not been using manganese supplements because of the side effect concerns, but I have been eating manganese rich foods like spinach, oat, lettuce, blueberries, pineapples, rye, black beans, walnuts, pumpkin seeds etc.

I don't know maybe I was deficient and it is not related to SA but I can tell the difference when I make my sandwich with rye bread instead of white bread. I don't experience the foggy mind or tiredness when eat rye or oat bread. 

I have been on this diet for 3 months and I can feel the difference, even from my posts lol I am not irritable or nervous as I used to be.


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## LostPancake

hmm, sounds interesting. just be careful you don't get manganism! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganism

it's interesting that too much manganese winds up doing damage to the dopamine-producing neurons. maybe the body transports a lot of it there, and then it does oxidative damage to the cells?

so yeah, be careful - it might build up in your body over time. (?)


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## Beggiatoa

The only reported cases of manganism are due to inhaled dust. In this form, it quickly accumulates in the brain and destroys Dopamine neurons there. If you read the causes in that wiki- link, nowhere does it talk about dietary or supplemental toxicity. There are some vegetarian diets that provide more than 20 mg per day! So, it begs the questions.



> *Causes*
> 
> Manganism has become an active issue in workplace safety as it has been the subject of numerous product liability lawsuits against manufacturers of arc welding supplies. In these lawsuits, welders have accused the manufacturers of failing to provide adequate warning that their products could cause welding fumes to contain dangerously high manganese concentrations that could lead welders to develop manganism. Companies employing welders are also being sued, for what colloquially is known as "welders' disease."
> Another cause of the disorder is methcathinone, an amphetamine that is often prepared with poor quality control using potassium permanganate as an oxidiser, leading to high proportion of the toxic substance in the drug. The practice and its victims are reported in former USSR states.[3]
> 
> Another street drug sometimes contaminated with manganese is the so-called "Bazooka", prepared by free-base methods from cocaine using manganese carbonate.[4][_citation needed_]
> Reports also mention such sources as contaminated drinking water,[5] and fuel additive methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT),[6] which on combustion becomes partially converted into manganese phosphates and sulfate that go airborne with the exhaust,[7][8][9] and manganese ethylene-bis-dithiocarbamate (MANEB), a pesticide.[10]


Low and high levels of most minerals cause the same problems. So, manganese in high concentration damages dopamine neurons but in adequate concentration, it will helps theses same neurons function properly. Think about it.


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## LostPancake

Beggiatoa said:


> The only reported cases of manganism are due to inhaled dust. In this form, it quickly accumulates in the brain and destroys Dopamine neurons there. If you read the causes in that wiki- link, nowhere does it talk about dietary or supplemental toxicity. There are some vegetarian diets that provide more than 20 mg per day! So, it begs the questions.
> 
> Low and high levels of most minerals cause the same problems. So, manganese in high concentration damages dopamine neurons but in adequate concentration, it will helps theses same neurons function properly. Think about it.


okay, i'm just being paranoid. the contaminated drug did cause it also, but apparently that was in a person with liver damage. so i guess if your liver isn't working properly, it wouldn't be able to excrete the manganese, and it might build up in your system then.

i wonder how long the effects will last? if it's indefinite, that would be great, because i could definitely use some more dopamine.

did you get the sense that you might be able to just take it on days when you need extra focus, or is it a more gradual thing?


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## LostPancake

hmm...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19337503



> we administered weekly doses of 3.3-5.0 (n=4), 5.0-6.7 (n=5), or 8.3-10.0 mg Mn/kg (n=3) for 7-59 weeks to cynomolgus macaque monkeys. Animals expressed subtle deficits in cognition and motor function and decreases in the N-acetylaspartate-to-creatine ratio in the parietal cortex measured by magnetic resonance spectroscopy reflective of neuronal dysfunction. *Impaired striatal dopamine release* measured by positron emission tomography was observed


okay, say you're 150 lbs = 68 kg

so 3mg/kg * 68kg / 7 days = 29 mg/day
and 10mg/kg * 68kg / 7 days = 97 mg/day

am i doing that right? i haven't read the article so don't know how they administered it - injection? pill? would it matter? and they are monkeys, not humans.

what's your take on it?

and how much do we normally get in the diet, do you know?


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## proximo20

LostPancake said:


> decreases in the N-acetylaspartate-to-creatine ratio in the parietal cortex


RESULTS: Generalized anxiety disorder patients had a 16.5% higher N-acetylaspartate/creatine ratio in the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex compared with healthy participants;

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/161/6/1119


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## courtycat

proximo20 said:


> I have noticed that manganese rich foods are very good for the health then I remembered that manganese was one of the minerals that your hair test showed deficiency.
> 
> I have not been using manganese supplements because of the side effect concerns, but I have been eating manganese rich foods like spinach, oat, lettuce, blueberries, pineapples, rye, black beans, walnuts, pumpkin seeds etc.
> 
> I don't know maybe I was deficient and it is not related to SA but I can tell the difference when I make my sandwich with rye bread instead of white bread. I don't experience the foggy mind or tiredness when eat rye or oat bread.
> 
> I have been on this diet for 3 months and I can feel the difference, even from my posts lol I am not irritable or nervous as I used to be.


***Maybe this is why I crave these foods so much? My body's way of saying I'm deficient?


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## LostPancake

proximo20 said:


> RESULTS: Generalized anxiety disorder patients had a 16.5% higher N-acetylaspartate/creatine ratio in the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex compared with healthy participants;
> 
> http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/161/6/1119


hang on, i'm new to some of this stuff -



> N-acetylaspartate (NAA) gives off the largest signal in magnetic resonance spectroscopy of the human brain, and the levels measured there are decreased in numerous neuropathological conditions ranging from brain injury to stroke to Alzheimer's disease. This fact makes NAA a reliable diagnostic molecule for doctors treating patients with brain damage or disease.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Acetylaspartate

so NAA is a marker for neuron activity/health.

and apparently the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC) is hyperactive in major depression, generalized anxiety disorder, and social phobia. but that's in a different part of the brain. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17888408
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/161/6/1119

so for the manganese study, it was just showing that the parietal cortex was underfunctioning. does that mean the monkeys were just moving around less or closing their eyes more? (parietal cortex handles sensory information mostly) i dunno...


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## Starfox

Thats good info to know!


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## Starfox

Thats good info to know!


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## Beggiatoa

Found this blog. This guy seemed to have discovered manganese much the same way I did. Basically, after trying magnesium, zinc, copper, etc...

http://aaronjreid.wordpress.com/tag/manganese/


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## proximo20

Beggiatoa said:


> Found this blog. This guy seemed to have discovered manganese much the same way I did. Basically, after trying magnesium, zinc, copper, etc...
> 
> http://aaronjreid.wordpress.com/tag/manganese/


Cool discovery.

This part is interesting from the link: Nerve problems (stuttering, depression, worry) call for manganese in the diet. Low manganese can trigger epileptic seizures. 
Poor memory, absentmindedness, disjointed thought may indicate a shortage of manganese in the diet.


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## LostPancake

Beggiatoa said:


> Found this blog. This guy seemed to have discovered manganese much the same way I did. Basically, after trying magnesium, zinc, copper, etc...
> 
> http://aaronjreid.wordpress.com/tag/manganese/


some interesting stuff from that blog -



> Usually, the entire body contains less than 50 milligrams (mg) of manganese. Manganese is stored half in the bones and the remainder in the liver, pancreas, pituitary gland and kidneys.
> 
> The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for manganese is 7 mg.
> 
> It is important to emphasize, however, that a manganese deficiency is very rare in humans, and does not usually develop unless manganese is deliberately eliminated from the diet. In addition, it has been suggested that magnesium substitutes for manganese in certain enzyme systems if manganese is deficient, thereby allowing the body to function normally despite the deficiency.
> 
> The best food sources of manganese are nuts, whole grains, seeds and fresh vegetables. Buckwheat, oats and wheat are cereals high in manganese. Hazelnuts, chestnuts, pecans, Brazil nuts and almonds rate highest among nuts. Sunflower and pumpkin seeds are manganese-rich as are watercress, peas, beans and turnip greens.
> 
> Many of our food crops are now generally deficient in magnesium, iron, zinc, selenium, manganese and copper. In order to improve our health and that of future generations we must re-mineralize our soils.


i'd be wary about taking more than the RDA (7mg), in light of the study done on the monkeys. the guy with the blog went as high as 75mg. that doesn't sound good...

it's understandable that there might be a short term benefit from it, if the excess manganese is allowing production of more enzymes for dopamine, but the excess manganese could also cause long-term oxidative damage, killing off the dopamine-producing cells.

and i say could, because i don't know what dose in a human would do that. but given the choice between SA and Parkinsonism, i'd take the SA. but i'm paranoid.


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## proximo20

LostPancake said:


> some interesting stuff from that blog -
> 
> i'd be wary about taking more than the RDA (7mg), in light of the study done on the monkeys. the guy with the blog went as high as 75mg. that doesn't sound good...
> 
> it's understandable that there might be a short term benefit from it, if the excess manganese is allowing production of more enzymes for dopamine, but the excess manganese could also cause long-term oxidative damage, killing off the dopamine-producing cells.
> 
> and i say could, because i don't know what dose in a human would do that. but given the choice between SA and Parkinsonism, i'd take the SA. but i'm paranoid.


I know that Beggiota has done blood and hair mineral tests, I think it would be better to test your levels before taking these mineral supplements and I personally prefer to change my diet instead of taking pills.

No I give up, I know someone will say tomorrow here: I ate walnuts and still feel anxious, as if they should work like xanax, I don't know why I keep posting in this section.


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## Beggiatoa

I always saw SA as an early form of parkinson's since they both involve degeneration of dopaminergic neurons. The toxicity that causes manganism and thus, atypical parkinson's in only seen in welders that breathe in manganese dust and other metals. There are no reports of dietary or supplemental intoxication. Well, all except one that I often see referenced in papers but I can't find the study itself anywhere. Nor does it go into detail of how much this person used. Maybe you can try??

32. Keen CL, Zidenberg-Cherr S. Manganese toxicity in humans and experimental animals. In: Klimis-Tavantzis DL, ed. Manganese in health and disease. Boca Raton: CRC Press, Inc; 1994:193-205.


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## Beggiatoa

I always saw SA as an early form of parkinson's since they both involve degeneration of dopaminergic neurons. The toxicity that causes manganism and thus, atypical parkinson's in only seen in welders that breathe in manganese dust and other metals. There are no reports of dietary or supplemental intoxication. Well, all except one that I often see referenced in papers but I can't find the study itself anywhere. Nor does it go into detail of how much this person used. Maybe you can try??

32. Keen CL, Zidenberg-Cherr S. Manganese toxicity in humans and experimental animals. In: Klimis-Tavantzis DL, ed. Manganese in health and disease. Boca Raton: CRC Press, Inc; 1994:193-205.


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## Beggiatoa

Mn as a cofactor for dopamine. It's hard to find sources to back this up. I just read scant statements here and there. This picture should help, though.


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## LostPancake

something kind of interesting - the dopamine-producing neurons are darkly colored due to having a lot of melanin in them (hence, substantia *****, "black substance"). and apparently, "Melanin is able to effectively ligate metal ions through its carboxylate and phenolic hydroxyl groups, in many cases much more efficiently than the powerful chelating ligand ethylenediaminetetraacetate (EDTA). It may thus serve to sequester potentially toxic metal ions, protecting the rest of the cell." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin

so the melanin could be storing the manganese and magnesium ions (and other ionic cofactors) needed for dopamine production that get transported there.

also, the locus coeruleus ("blue body") is similar, with polymerized norepinepherine causing the blue color. it might also store the same ionic cofactors, since norepinepherine is just one reaction down from dopamine. 
"The locus coeruleus is activated by stress, and will respond by increasing norepinephrine secretion, which in turn will increase cognitive function (through the prefrontal cortex), increase motivation (through nucleus accumbens)... " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_coeruleus

interestingly, another disease which can cause parkinsons is wilson's disease, which is an accumulation of copper in tissues, esp the brain. 
"About half the patients with Wilson's have neurological or psychiatric problems. Most patients initially have mild cognitive deterioration and clumsiness, as well as changes in behavior. Specific neurological symptoms then follow, often in the form of parkinsonism (increased rigidity and slowing of routine movements)... Psychiatric problems due to Wilson's disease may include behavioral changes, depression, anxiety and psychosis." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson's_disease

so, another case where too much metal can damage the dopaminergic (and maybe also noradrenergic) neurons.

so... since people with SA are more likely to develop parkinsons (i read that here a while back), it could be due to increased exposure to or storage of metal ions, which are transported to the substantia *****, and locus coeruleus, which then get oxidative damage and start dying off, hence less dopamine and norepinephrine available. that's just a guess though. i mean, it seems like organisms should be good at dealing with metal ions, since it would encounter them a lot in the environment. so i dunno.

um, plus this - "A common finding in advanced Alzheimer's disease is almost complete loss of the norepinephrine producing pigmented neurons of the locus ceruleus". i remember reading a while back that aluminum might be implicated in alzheimers, which maybe causing the same loss of neurons.


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## LostPancake

some more info -

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...zheng/zheng/Crossg04_NMRBiomed17p544to553.pdf



> Human Mn deficiency has been reported in patients on parenteral nutrition and in micronutrient studies. Mn toxicity has been reported through occupational (e.g. welder) *and dietary overexposure* and is evidenced primarily in the central nervous system, although lung, cardiac, liver, reproductive and fetal toxicity have been noted. Mn neurotoxicity results from an accumulation of the metal in brain tissue and results in a progressive disorder of the extrapyramidal system which is similar to Parkinson's disease. In order for Mn to distribute from blood into brain tissue, it must cross either the blood-brain barrier (BBB) or the blood-cerebrospinal fluid barrier (BCB). Brain import, with no evidence of export, would lead to brain Mn accumulation and neurotoxicity. The mechanism for the neurodegenerative damage specific to select brain regions is not clearly understood. Disturbances in iron homeostasis and the valence state of Mn have been implicated as key factors in contributing to Mn toxicity. Chelation therapy with EDTA and supplementation with levodopa are the current treatment options, which are mildly and transiently efficacious. In conclusion, repeated administration of Mn, or compounds that readily release Mn, may increase the risk of Mn-induced toxicity.
> 
> The trace element manganese (Mn) is essential for normal development and body function across the life span of all mammals. Mn binds to and/or regulates many enzymes throughout the body. For example, Mn is a required co-factor for arginase, which is responsible for urea production in the liver, superoxide dismutase, which is critical to prevent against cellular oxidative stress, and pyruvate carboxylase, an essential enzyme in gluconeo-genesis. In brain, about 80% of Mn is associated with the astrocyte-specific enzyme *glutamine synthetase*
> 
> Interruption of Mn homeostasis has also been associated with a variety of disease states in humans. There are few reports of Mn deficiency in general human populations with self-selected diets, which contain *2-4 mg Mn daily*.
> 
> It is suspected that the presence of neurological symptoms in epileptics may correlate with low brain Mn, which may result from a low blood Mn.


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## LostPancake

> the significantly lower incidence of Parkinson's in blacks than in whites has "prompt[ed] some to suggest that cutaneous melanin might somehow serve to protect the neuromelanin in substantia ***** from external toxins."


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin

or it could absorb excess metals?


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## LostPancake

continued from same source - http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...zheng/zheng/Crossg04_NMRBiomed17p544to553.pdf



> Serum concentration of Mn in healthy subjects is about 0.05-0.12mg/dl. After entering, or being injected into, blood, Mn rapidly distributes into other tissues.
> 
> Based on animal data, Mn distributes, under normal conditions, in brain regions in the following order: *substantia ****** > striatum > hippocampus > frontal cortex
> 
> Once Mn enters the brain it persists there for a relatively long time.
> 
> it was found that the relative retention of Mn in the cerebrum increased, while its relative retentions in most other tissues examined remained fairly constant, suggesting *a selective retention of Mn in the brain*.
> 
> Studies conducted in rats indicate that Mn accumulates in the cerebrum during the first 4 days following dose administration; the levels did not decline at 34 or 64 days after dosing.
> 
> Currently, there is a significant concern about airborne Mn exposure from the fuel additive methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT). Combustion of MMT releases Mn from the tailpipe, primarily as airborne Mn phosphates and sulfate. Increased use of Mn-containing products results in greater exposure of large populations to Mn. Mn intoxication has also been reported after ingestion of contaminated water.
> 
> Mn toxicity has also been reported by ingestion in patients receiving long-term parenteral nutrition containing about 1mg/day of parenteral Mn for adults or more than 40mg/kg/day for children (as reviewed in Dickerson). Interestingly, Mn deficiency has also been noted in patients on TPN. [Parenteral nutrition (PN) is feeding a person intravenously, bypassing the usual process of eating and digestion. The person receives nutritional formulas containing salts, glucose, amino acids, lipids and added vitamins. It is called total parenteral nutrition (TPN) when no food is given by other routes.]
> 
> *(maybe because taking it orally a lot of it gets eliminated by the liver, but injecting it bypasses the liver?)*
> 
> For Mn, the primary targeted brain regions are the globus pallidus and striatum of the basal ganglia, whereas the neurodegeneration in IPD (parkinson's) occurs mainly in the substantia *****.
> 
> Based on our own study on 36 welders diagnosed with the symptoms of typical Mn poisoning in Beijing, the onset of symptoms is between 2 and 34 years (average 16.3 years), the welders having average working duration of 24.4 years (4-40 years).
> 
> Occupational exposure for an average of 7 years was associated with significant decrements in neurological function.
> 
> Chronic Mn overexposure causes Mn accumulation in brain regions, notably including the basal ganglia structures and, to a lesser extent, the caudate nucleus and putamen.
> 
> A number of studies have shown that Mn-elicited neurotoxicity may be related to the abnormal iron metabolism. High dietary Mn increased Fe uptake into rat brain, liver and kidneys. The excess accumulation of Fe in neurons may consequently produce the cellular oxidative stress that leads to neuronal damage.
> 
> The suggestion that transition metals contribute to the neurodegeneration observed in Parkinsonian syndromes is consistent with studies of the toxicity of different Mn valence states. As Mn can participate in Fenton reactions, it has the potential to increase reactive oxygen species, and subsequent oxidative damage, within cells. A recent human study further confirms the oxidative damage among welders exposed to airborne Mn.
> 
> Furthermore, 10 years after cessation of Mn exposure, the same patients continued to show progression in severity of symptoms.


i found this pretty interesting, as my grandfather was exposed to some things in his work environment (an oil refinery), and later developed high iron in his blood AND a parkinson-like tremor. he used to play guitar and paint, but had to give them up due to it.


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## zomgz

Hmm I heard it was in Blueberries and Pineapple. I like both of those. Also, I take 50mcg of manganese, wondering if that's too much?


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## Beggiatoa

LostPancake, excellent work. You know what's needed to make melanine? Tyrosine. Interesting as it's also needed to make dopamine. The dietary exposure you quoted above most likely referenced newborns who are fed soy formulas high in manganese. Since their biliary systems aren't fully developed, they can't excrete the manganese and thus, it becomes toxic to them. Again, I've seen no studies referencing Mn toxicity to diet. Some diets, I've seen referenced, contain in excess of 20 mg Mn per day without any adverse effect.

But what if, we supplement with the RIGHT amount?? The Upper limit of manganese is 11 mg. Right now I'm taking 20 but admit this feels to strong. There are formulas that offer 15 mg but I'm going to use one that gives 10 mg. Most minerals exert toxic effects at high dose. I read a report of a lady that died from magnesium overdose but she REALLY overdid it. I'm talking about grams...

If you can find more information like the one you posted, share some links. I'd like to read up on it some more. Maybe this way, we can figure out what's wrong with us.

I read a book on google books that said daily manganese excretion in bile is 4 mg per day. the RDA for Mn is set for 2-2.5. Hmm.m......


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## LostPancake

zomgz said:


> Hmm I heard it was in Blueberries and Pineapple. I like both of those. Also, I take 50mcg of manganese, wondering if that's too much?


not at all - mcg is micrograms, so that's only 0.05 mg!



Beggiatoa said:


> LostPancake, excellent work. You know what needed to make melanine? Tyrosine. Interesting as it's also needed to make melanin. The dietary exposure you quoted above most likely referenced newborns who are fed soy formulas high in manganese. Since their biliary systems aren't fully developed, they can't excrete the manganese and thus, it becomes toxic to them. Again, I've seen no studies referencing Mn toxicity to diet. Some diets, I've seen referenced, contain in excess of 20 mg Mn per day without any adverse effect.
> 
> But what if, we supplement with the RIGHT amount?? The Upper limit of manganese is 11 mg. Right now I'm taking 20 but admit this feels to strong. There are formulas that offer 15 mg but I'm going to use one that gives 10 mg. Most minerals exert toxic effects at high dose. I read a report of a lady that died from magnesium overdose but she REALLY overdid it. I'm talking about grams...
> 
> If you can find more information like the one you posted, share some links. I'd like to read up on it some more. Maybe this way, we can figure out what's wrong with us.
> 
> I read a book on google books that said daily manganese excretion in bile is 4 mg per day. the RDA for Mn is set for 2-2.5. Hmm.m......


thanks! yeah, i wonder about that monkey study - maybe they were injecting the manganese, for it to be toxic at only ~30mg/day? i'll have to read the article.

whoa, i'd seen the RDA as being 9mg - maybe that was an old reference. but yeah it looks like it's now at 2-2.3mg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_Daily_Intake

here's an interesting paper from 1994 - http://www.springerlink.com/content/t52541410470w3lp/fulltext.pdf?page=1



> Manganese (Mn) is assumed to be an essential nutrient for
> humans because numerous animal studies have shown that
> deficiencies produce abnormalities in brain function...
> 
> However, a formal recommended dietary allowance
> (RDA) has not been set for this nutrient because of a lack
> of sufficient data. Currently, the estimated safe and adequate
> intake for Mn is *2.5-5.0 mg/day* [2]. This recom-
> mendation was made, based on metabolic studies that
> showed *equilibrium or accretion* of Mn in adult human
> subjects fed diets containing 2-5 rag/day or more, and
> *negative balance* on an intake of 0.7 rag/day. *Recent studies
> have reported negative Mn balance in subjects fed diets
> containing 2.3-17.3 mg/day* [5-10]. This wide range
> suggests that the precise requirement for Mn remains to
> be determined.
> ...the present study was undertaken to assess the dietary intake for this
> country and to compare data with the estimated safe and
> adequate dietary intake (2-5 mg) recommended by the
> Food and Nutrition Board of the National Research Council
> of the USA [14].


so they evaluated what people typically ate and found it to be around 3mg manganese a day.

but it's interesting that there was such a range that produced a negative Mn balance. maybe some people are better at excreting it than others, and might end up being deficient in it?

anyway, given that accretion (ie being accumulated in tissues) _can_ happen at 5mg a day, i'd be wary about taking too much for too long. but again, i'm paranoid...


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## Beggiatoa

Aside from all this toxicity talk, Mn is also needed without loss, for so many functions.

Manganese is needed for T4 production in the thyroid, It's also needed for insulin, dopamine, acetylcholine, superoxide dismutase, Nitric Oxide and on and on. This is all very interesting.

Another thing, my sugar cravings and hypoglycemia problems have completely stopped. I have NO cravings for sweets which was a big problem for me.

I know we should be getting all these things from foods. But somehow, we are not. Even so, the daily requirement is setup to avoid deficiency and it's related problems. To have a therapeutic effect, as in healing, etc., you need higher doses. That's why the upper limit is established. Maybe we have a condition that calls for more manganese??

I don't generally pay much attention to supplement review on Iherb, but I found this one interested. This was for a manganese supplement of 50 mg.



> Can't live without it., May 19, 2009
> From Florida
> I was always tired my head shook like Parkinson's, back and neck hurt, ears infected, just sick all the time and could not work. I used to take the pill and wanted to illiminate the copper from it . I replaced line in fridge, got rid of copper pots and pans illiminated chlorine with filters in shower, sinks and a salt pool. Started taking a mineral supplement with low copper and also this product. My health problems are gone my chronic fatigue, and pain is gone, my thyroid is doing great. I could not live without Country Life chelated manganese. I take it seperate from other minerals to insure complete absorption. It is my little miracle.


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## Beggiatoa

Wow, I had missed that completely. There's no set RDA based on evidence. They just guessed. Hmmmm...

I think manganese deserves more attention.


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## LostPancake

Beggiatoa said:


> I know we should be getting all these things from foods. But somehow, we are not. Even so, the daily requirement is setup to avoid deficiency and it's related problems. To have a therapeutic effect, as in healing, etc., you need higher doses. That's why the upper limit is established. Maybe we have a condition that calls for more manganese??


yeah, the RDA is for the average person, but there are apparently significant variations. it does sound like it needs more study. or maybe it's been done? needs more googling...



> Can't live without it., May 19, 2009
> From Florida
> I was always tired my head shook like Parkinson's, back and neck hurt, ears infected, just sick all the time and could not work. I used to take the pill and wanted to illiminate the *copper *from it . I replaced line in fridge, got rid of copper pots and pans illiminated chlorine with filters in shower, sinks and a salt pool. Started taking a mineral supplement with low copper and also this product. My health problems are gone my chronic fatigue, and pain is gone, my thyroid is doing great. I could not live without Country Life chelated manganese. I take it seperate from other minerals to insure complete absorption. It is my little miracle.


wow, i hadn't thought about this - copper lines used in plumbing? especially in light of the thing about wilson's disease - 


> interestingly, another disease which can cause parkinsons is wilson's disease, which is an accumulation of *copper* in tissues, esp the brain.
> "About half the patients with Wilson's have neurological or psychiatric problems. Most patients initially have mild cognitive deterioration and clumsiness, as well as changes in behavior. Specific neurological symptoms then follow, often in the form of parkinsonism (increased rigidity and slowing of routine movements)... Psychiatric problems due to Wilson's disease may include behavioral changes, *depression, anxiety* and psychosis." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson's_disease


so... maybe in modern society we get exposed to more metals (in the shower? vehicle exhaust? water supply?), which get accumulated in the dopamine and norepinephrine producing neurons, which damages them, leading to SA, and then increased chances of parkinson's?

consider that most metals were locked away in ores until we learned how to extract them. now they're everywhere. we even cook with them. i remember the aluminum link with alzheimers being thought to be from this. our genes wouldn't know how to deal with them properly.

it's funny how we're focusing on the different ends of the spectrum, but they would both lead to the same thing - low amounts of dopamine (and presumably norepinephrine).

i don't normally think in terms of medical causes of SA, but it's interesting to think about.


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## killergowri

i am not sure on providing solution for you


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## proximo20

1) Manganese-Insulin Relation

a) These findings indicate that dietary Mn deficiency can result in impaired insulin secretion producing impaired carbohydrate metabolism; however, the timing of the deficiency may be a critical factor in the expression of this abnormality.

from http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/114/8/1438

b) Manganese deficiency results in glucose intolerance similar to diabetes mellitus in some animal species, but studies examining the manganese status of diabetic humans have generated mixed results. In one study, whole blood manganese levels did not differ significantly between 57 diabetics and 28 non-diabetic controls (17). However, urinary manganese excretion tended to be slightly higher in 185 diabetics compared to 185 non-diabetic controls (18 ).

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/manganese/

2) Insulin-Dopamine Relation

a) The results are some of the first to link insulin status and dopaminergic brain function and hold several implications for human health and disease.

The findings suggest that ADHD risk may have an insulin-dependent component and that control of insulin levels and response to the hormone may be an important determinant of amphetamine efficacy in patients with ADHD.

These experiments show that there is likely a strong interplay between these important dopamine neurotransmitter systems and insulin signaling mechanisms, which we know are altered in diabetes.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071017090131.htm

------------------------------------------------------

So if you have MN deficiency you produce less insulin and if you have inadequate insulin your dopamine system does not work properly.

Don't think it as severe manganese deficiency, there is also something called suboptimal levels. Also as you can see how much you need depends on how much you excrete. But I would still be cautious because a different mechanism or another problem might be causing the dopamine problem.


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## GSH

Beggiatoa said:


> Is Manganese the solution??


No


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## Beggiatoa

GSH said:


> No


I love your simplistic and minimalistic nature but could you please elaborate on that?


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## Beggiatoa

Did I mention, manganese is THE mineral for connective tissue. It's needed as a cofactor for collagen, elastin and the mucopolyssacharides like hyaluronic acid, glucosamine and chondroitin.

I've always had a problem with my connective tissue. I wrote about this before, from a mitral valve prolapse, dilated aorta, hernias, lumbar hernia, to gynecomastia and saggy skin in my abdomen and face. I've been on Mn for a month now and at least what's visible on the outside, the elasticity is improving all over, noticeably. I'm curious to see what's happening on the inside.


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## Beggiatoa

proximo20 said:


> 1) Manganese-Insulin Relation
> 
> So if you have MN deficiency you produce less insulin and if you have inadequate insulin your dopamine system does not work properly.
> 
> Don't think it as severe manganese deficiency, there is also something called suboptimal levels. Also as you can see how much you need depends on how much you excrete. But I would still be cautious because a different mechanism or another problem might be causing the dopamine problem.


Close. Simply put, manganese is needed for BOTh insulin and dopamine production. It's as simple as that. Maybe what these patients had in common was insufficient Mn intake.

As for me, I have a dopamine problem. I've also noticed over the years that my fasting glucose levels have risen from the 70's to the upper 90's. At this rate, I'll be diabetic in a few years EVEN THOUGH I take awsome care of myself, eat healthy and exercise. This didn't seem to be enough.

I must note, since on Mn, a lack of motivation has not been a problem. In fact, I'm going out every single night. I'm leaving for a roadtrip in a few hours and I've been making more friends in the last month than I had in the last year living abroad. That's how awsome I feel.


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## SAgirl

How much does Manganese cost? Are you taking it in pill form?


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## Beggiatoa

SAgirl said:


> How much does Manganese cost? Are you taking it in pill form?


I was using this:

http://www.iherb.com/Chelated-Manganese-250-Tablets/13270?at=0

but just switched to this:

http://www.iherb.com/Twinlab-Manganese-10-mg-100-Capsules/2383?at=0


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## Beggiatoa

un4td,

They used 20 or 40 mg Mn in rats. Let's say the biggest rat weighed 1 pound of body weight. For me, which I weight 200 lbs, that's the equivalent of consuming 4 grams at 20 mg per pound, or 8 grams at 40 mg per pound of Mn. The established upper limit is 11 mg so it's not too difficult to figure out why at these HIGH doses, Mn was toxic. Manganism is seen in welders who aspirated while working with Mn. It's also seen in other very specific conditions. With that in mind, Mn is needed as a cofactor for the production of dopamine.

dopamine production has an inverse U-curve. Add Mn up to a certain levels and D levels are augmented. As you increase the Mn concentration, these levels plateau and eventually start dropping. The key here is staying within the correct dose.


----------



## Beggiatoa

un4td,

They used 20 or 40 mg Mn in rats. Let's say the biggest rat weighed 1 pound of body weight. For me, which I weight 200 lbs, that's the equivalent of consuming 4 grams at 20 mg per pound, or 8 grams at 40 mg per pound of Mn. The established upper limit is 11 mg so it's not too difficult to figure out why at these HIGH doses, Mn was toxic. Manganism is seen in welders who aspirated while working with Mn. It's also seen in other very specific conditions. With that in mind, Mn is needed as a cofactor for the production of dopamine.

dopamine production has an inverse U-curve. Add Mn up to a certain levels and D levels are augmented. As you increase the Mn concentration, these levels plateau and eventually start dropping. The key here is staying within the correct dose.

Also, it doesn't say how the Mn was administered. If it was given in the form of manganese sulfate, then it was likey injected. Magnesium sulfate is used in the hospital setting and this is injected directly into the veins. So, a little weeee rat was given 4 or 40 grams Mn every day IV. This dose overcame the excretory speed of the liver and bile system and the body simply couldn't get rid of it fast enough so it accumulated in the dopamine producing areas of the brain. Mn has high affinity here BECAUSE it is required for normal brain function. I really doubt 10 or 20 mg will have this effect.


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## ShawnnyK

Beggiatoa, How long have you been taking manganese?


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## Beggiatoa

For about one month now


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## Greensoap

Could you list the difference in how you feel? 

I've just picked up a bottle of 100 x 5mg Chelated Manganese after coming home from the doctors disgrunted and unhappy with my doctors choice of medication. Thought this could be worth a try.

The back of the bottle states 7mg is the RDA, let others in this thread say otherwise? What do you take, im 115lbs btw.

Sorry if you've already stated this, I haven't read through every detail in this thread :b


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## Beggiatoa

The Upper limit is set at 11 mg based on age, not weight. So if you're over 19, this range should be safe.


----------



## ratherbesailing

I am new to this forum and found your post on thiamine and continued reading your other posts until I stumbled across this thread on manganese. My question is how long were you on the 20 mg dose before you started noticing any improvement and has going down to the 10 mg dose lowered the effectiveness? Also, did taking thiamine cause any changes for you or was it just the manganese? Thanks. 
I originally found my thiamine info (and in which he states that manganese is a necessary co-factor) from the research of Ronald Myers, CNC at these links, should anyone be interested:

http://www.funimky.com/downloads/THIAMINE.pdf

http://www.funimky.com/downloads/GI SYSTEM_Part 1.pdf

http://www.funimky.com/beyond_nutrition.htm


----------



## Beggiatoa

ratherbesailing said:


> I am new to this forum and found your post on thiamine and continued reading your other posts until I stumbled across this thread on manganese. My question is how long were you on the 20 mg dose before you started noticing any improvement and has going down to the 10 mg dose lowered the effectiveness? Also, did taking thiamine cause any changes for you or was it just the manganese? Thanks.
> I originally found my thiamine info (and in which he states that manganese is a necessary co-factor) from the research of Ronald Myers, CNC at these links, should anyone be interested:
> 
> http://www.funimky.com/downloads/THIAMINE.pdf
> 
> http://www.funimky.com/downloads/GI SYSTEM_Part 1.pdf
> 
> http://www.funimky.com/beyond_nutrition.htm


Thank you for the links. I will read every inch of the site. The manganese is interesting. I tried using it once a few months back. Every time I dosed, it would make me really tired. I could never figure it out. I was taking many other supplements then, so it was hard to figure out which did. Once I stopped the Mn, this problem went away. I tried it again many, many months later. This time, I was more educated on how important it was for dopamine production and connective tissue (especially hyaluronic acid formation). The first dose, made me sleepy. The second dose, made my left arm feel numb for a few hours. After the 3rd of 4rd dose, I started to feel amazing but the effect came as very subtle.

I switch to a 10 mg dose but it wasn't chelated. I didn't do anything for me. The chelated forms seems to be the best absorbed.


----------



## Beggiatoa

Using thiamin, I saw modest improvements in orthostatic hypotension and tremors, but not as pronouced as using manganese.


----------



## Beggiatoa

irma said:


> I've just been reading an old book called Nutrition and Mental Illness by Dr Carl Pfeiffer and he recommended that anxious people take 10mg of managanese as gluconate twice a day.


Does he explain why?


----------



## ratherbesailing

Your post was very helpful. A year or so ago I came across manganese and tried Solgar Chelated Manganese (manganese glycinate) and felt nothing either positive or negative. This time, just 3 days ago, I tried Twin Labs Magnesium Gluconate (supposedly chelated as well) and have had a similar reaction as you've described. I've been very sleepy/tired and yesterday my right arm started aching and feeling numb like when it has lactic acid build up issues. I'm going to stick with it for several weeks and see what happens. 
Also, what type of thiamine were you taking? I've tried the HCL version to no avail and now the Benfotiamine with a tiny effect, also, like yourself, with the orthostatic hypotension (I don't lose my eyesight as frequently). I am about to try the Biotics Research version of thiamine that Ronald Myers spoke of in his articles and see if that makes a difference as well. It is interesting how the version of a supplement can really matter. I also am including a link from a chiropractor who uses the Biotics Thiamine and what dosages he uses with his patients. Thanks for your very practical input.

http://www.aznetnews.com/story.php?storyid=271


----------



## ratherbesailing

I have not read Carl Pfeiffer's book, but have read Joan Matthews Larson (where I first heard about manganese and tried the glycinate version, not realizing that Larson uses the gluconate version) as well as Julia Ross who have built on the foundation of Pfeiffer's research. Larson mentions that manganese helps rebuild the adrenal glands which are implicated in anxiety issues. She also mentions it is necessary for the proper use of the B complex vitamins as well as vitamin C, which I assume are what help the adrenals?


----------



## ratherbesailing

Irma,

Did Pfeiffer give manganese to high histamine? Larson only gave it to low histamine and I assumed it contradicted with high, but I have not read Pfeiffer's book. Thanks.


----------



## ratherbesailing

I thought I would post a different reaction to the manganese gluconate. I have a hyper/driven/ adhd type anxiety, but my husband has a low energy depressive anxiety and we have reacted very differently to the manganese. I get very sleepy on it, still, and he had a huge surge in energy the very first dose with no negative reactions. He only took 10 mg versus I was taking 20 mg, so I'll try backing off on my dose to see if there is any difference. He has used rhodiola and L-Tyrosine in the past that have also given him a big increase in energy and a take charge feeling, but disappeared after 2-3 weeks. Even if he waited a month and took them again, the energy level never returned. We're hoping that manganese won't do the same thing.


----------



## ratherbesailing

Thanks, Irma. Did he state that there was any risk using the manganese at the higher dosages beyond 20 mg? 50 mg is a lot, but obviously he was using it with patients for years so maybe it has some merit in certain cases?


----------



## saosin80

Q. Social Anxiety
I have found myself wondering more and more about social anxiety. My partner seemed to develop social anxiety around the same time she was diagnosed bipolar. i am wondering how many of you also suffer from soical anxiety and if you feel it is a result of bipolar disorder (perhaps personal knowledge of the possible behaviours associated with the illness) or if it is a seperate and unrelated symptom?
A1	Social Anxiety Disorders are the most common mental illness in the U.S. with 19.1 million (13.3%) of the adult U.S. population (ages 18-54) affected. and i think (not investigated- just an assumption) people with Bipolar disorder can easily develop shyness and would want to avoid social activities just because they think that other people wouldn't understand their problem.
A2	hi,
social anxiety disorder is best defeated by groups like
the Toastmasters International or the dale carnegie course.
The nwork without drugs
David
A3	*Methinks all these brain disorders have everything to do with a lack of copper.* With all our modern technology and artificial fertilizers and processing of foods, the food has become so depleted of minerals that our bodies and brains have become so depleted that we cannot even function properly. Start taking kelp, calcium magnesium, cod liver oil, flax seed oil, and raw apple cider vinegar. This will bring healing and normal function to the brain and body systems. The emotions will calm down and be more manageable. *If you are taking a vitamin with more manganese than copper it will add to the dysfunction*. Don't waste your money. There you are! Some solutions rather than more rhetoric about the problem.

I found this on another site. This person seems to think it's not enough copper and taking more manganese will hurt not help, ahhh, someone please figure it out so I can feel normal! lol


----------



## Beggiatoa

saosin80 said:


> Q. Social Anxiety
> I have found myself wondering more and more about social anxiety. My partner seemed to develop social anxiety around the same time she was diagnosed bipolar. i am wondering how many of you also suffer from soical anxiety and if you feel it is a result of bipolar disorder (perhaps personal knowledge of the possible behaviours associated with the illness) or if it is a seperate and unrelated symptom?
> A1	Social Anxiety Disorders are the most common mental illness in the U.S. with 19.1 million (13.3%) of the adult U.S. population (ages 18-54) affected. and i think (not investigated- just an assumption) people with Bipolar disorder can easily develop shyness and would want to avoid social activities just because they think that other people wouldn't understand their problem.
> A2	hi,
> social anxiety disorder is best defeated by groups like
> the Toastmasters International or the dale carnegie course.
> The nwork without drugs
> David
> A3	*Methinks all these brain disorders have everything to do with a lack of copper.* With all our modern technology and artificial fertilizers and processing of foods, the food has become so depleted of minerals that our bodies and brains have become so depleted that we cannot even function properly. Start taking kelp, calcium magnesium, cod liver oil, flax seed oil, and raw apple cider vinegar. This will bring healing and normal function to the brain and body systems. The emotions will calm down and be more manageable. *If you are taking a vitamin with more manganese than copper it will add to the dysfunction*. Don't waste your money. There you are! Some solutions rather than more rhetoric about the problem.
> 
> I found this on another site. This person seems to think it's not enough copper and taking more manganese will hurt not help, ahhh, someone please figure it out so I can feel normal! lol


Does he provide references for this??? What are the mechanisms acting on this theory?

If you read my earlier posts, I too subscribed to the "we need more copper" bandwagon. I even had a Liver biopsy done (which hurt like hell!) to determine if I was low (or high) on copper. Both extremes cause similiar symptoms. All tests were normal. My copper levels were good. Before I got smart and started testing, I took copper pills indiscriminately. I can tell you they did nothing to alleviate my social anxiety so I know copper wasn't the cofactor my body/brain were missing.

Eventually, I developed a hernia. I later learned that high copper intake activates metalloenzymes that degrade connective tissue. This was the OPPOSITE of what I was trying to do. I wanted to enhance CT production, not augment its degradation. So, copper was out.

It's been a completely different world for me since I added manganese. I cannot write on this board how much my life has changed in the last month or so.

What I suggest to everyone is to test for deficiencies. Test blood, urine, hair, whatever. You want a picture of what's going on in your body before you start putting things in it.

Click this link and scroll up. Read this section on manganese. It says dietary MN is not toxic.

http://books.google.com.do/books?id...&ei=802uStLyI4jCMtLg6LgN#v=onepage&q=&f=false


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## anomal2

Science's goal is to prevent threads like this one.


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## Beggiatoa

anomal2 said:


> Science's goal is to prevent threads like this one.


Science? jeje. Have you ever taken a science course? Is this really the best contribution you can make?

Rather than putting down other people's effort, why not put in a little effort of your own?


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## jason85

Beggiatoa said:


> I was using this:
> 
> http://www.iherb.com/Chelated-Manganese-250-Tablets/13270?at=0
> 
> but just switched to this:
> 
> http://www.iherb.com/Twinlab-Manganese-10-mg-100-Capsules/2383?at=0


hihi Beggiatoa,

Till date, which one is better? are you still using Twinlab-Manganese-10-mg-100-Capsules? Which one is better? I just order Twinlab-Manganese-10-mg-100-Capsules from Iherb.


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## Beggiatoa

Can't really say which one is better. But the 20 mg dose works much better for me.


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## jason85

Beggiatoa said:


> Can't really say which one is better. But the 20 mg dose works much better for me.


hihi, so you saying taking Twinlab-Manganese-10-mg-100-Capsules but on 20mg works the same as Chelated-Manganese-250-Tablets 20mg? can you kindly describe the difference in 10mg and 20mg positive effects? 

and also, how much are you taking now? how do you take it? early in the morning or at night before you slp....etc?


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## Beggiatoa

I went back to the carlson, 20 mg per day. I take it mid-day along with Lithium orotate and silica, since all these have a synergistic effect. Also, I take it away from magnesium, because they antagonize one another.

I feel almost euphoric everytime I dose with the carlson product. The chelated form seems to have better absorption.


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## Beggiatoa

I also have a discussion on manganese on this forum. I posted links to some reading material you'd like to check out.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=28843&view=findpost&p=341651


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## jason85

Beggiatoa said:


> I went back to the carlson, 20 mg per day. I take it mid-day along with Lithium orotate and silica, since all these have a synergistic effect. Also, I take it away from magnesium, because they antagonize one another.
> 
> I feel almost euphoric everytime I dose with the carlson product. The chelated form seems to have better absorption.


thanks for the prompt reply. omg... i ordered Twinlab-Manganese-10-mg-100-Capsules instead. did you see any positive effect even on Twinlab-Manganese-10-mg-100-Capsules?


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## Beggiatoa

Jason,

Just to play it safe, the 10 mg version is probably safer.


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## jason85

thanks for the prompt reply. i order the 20mg tablet not long ago. i saw your immist topic tt u said the Twinlab-Manganese-10-mg-100-Capsules didnt do any crap to u. so decided to order the carlson brand that u using now. u tried having manganese at night before u retired? if yes, how's it?

by the way, what is silica? i am not able to find it in iherb.


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Copper and Mn types*

Please be careful with the copper info. A few years ago, I too thought I was deficient in copper and tried two different supps. Both made me violently ill, which is apparently what can happen when you have TOO MUCH copper. So, again, please be careful. What I went through wasn't fun!

As for the Manganese supp type, both my husband and adult son are responding magnificently to it with lots of energy. They are taking the Twin Labs gluconate version at 20 mg a day. The 10 mg did give them energy, but the 20 mg dose was much better.. We had used a chelated glycinate version that didn't work for them, but it wasn't Carlson. I am still experiencing being very sleepy when taking Mn and may try the Carlson brand and see if it works better for me.

Beggiatoa,

When you initially switched Manganese types did the TwinLab make you feel sleepy, the same as the Carlson, or was there no response to it? Thanks.


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## anomal2

Are you smelting something? Hardening iron bars? Then Manganese is what you need. But as far as health...look up metal fume diseases. Look at what happens to people who weld copper and manganese containing steel. Then decide if your body is metal deficient.
Anyway...I've got some tasty aluminum to munch on...best of health to you.


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## Beggiatoa

Irma,

Acid secretion needs acetylcholine production. This is one of the functions of the autonomic nervous system. Manganese is needed for proper acetylcholine production. I can go on and on about how important manganese is.

Google Myasthenia gravis and manganese and you'll see how important it is for acetylcholine.


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## jason85

Beggiatoa, check with you something. may i know how come you take it in the mid-day and not in the morning/afternoon? doesn't the effect wear off when you wake up in the morning??? thanks in advance.


----------



## Beggiatoa

jason85 said:


> Beggiatoa, check with you something. may i know how come you take it in the mid-day and not in the morning/afternoon? doesn't the effect wear off when you wake up in the morning??? thanks in advance.


I'm experimenting with increasing GABA to improve hand tremors I have. I have service at the hospital and I need steady hands as much as possible. A combination of magnesium, glutamine, B1 and B6 is supposed to increase GABA.

Anyways, that's basically it. I might switch the Mn to the morning, eventually.


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Tried higher Manganese dose with success*

My husband suggested I try a higher dose of Manganese to see if I just needed more to have the energy effect. Maybe my dopamine is lower? Well, I tried 50 mg and it worked! It's been two days of wonderful energy. I am now going to back down on the dose 10 mg a day to see if 30 or 40 mg will still give me the same energy.


----------



## Beggiatoa

ratherbesailing said:


> My husband suggested I try a higher dose of Manganese to see if I just needed more to have the energy effect. Maybe my dopamine is lower? Well, I tried 50 mg and it worked! It's been two days of wonderful energy. I am now going to back down on the dose 10 mg a day to see if 30 or 40 mg will still give me the same energy.


Awsome that you feel great. I would warrant caution though. Even though I read of people using 50 mg or more and safe with no adverse effect, I'd still be careful.

I switched the manganese to the AM with 5 mg lithium orotate instead of the 15 mg. I think the higher dose lithium together with Mn (they're synergistic) was making me feel too energetic. The effect was too strong.


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Higher dose Mn*

I hear you on the caution part and set my experiment up accordingly. The Mn was just wiping me out for work and so I only had the weekend to experiment, that is why I decided to go for the highest dosage right off. I figured it wouldn't hurt for 24-48 hours just to know if that was the issue. I'm down to 40 mg today and still feeling good, so I'll keep backing off, even down to the original 20 (On the weekend!) to see what will work. Maybe my dopamine tank just needed more filling before there was excess Mn to spill over to metabolic energy? I so wish I was a science type to understand the behind-the-scenes nutritional workings better. Thanks for your concern.


----------



## Beggiatoa

I take it either way in the morning.

More info on manganese http://rais.ornl.gov/tox/profiles/mn.shtml


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Manganese still giving loads of energy*

I am posting my progress in finding my Mn dose. I backed all the way down to a 20 mg dose and now, on most days, that is enough. If I feel the sleepy/yawning feeling coming on before lunch then I'll take an extra 10 that day, but that need seems to be lessening as well. I am amazed at the extra energy and that it hasn't disappeared or diminished as other energy supps have done in the past. My husband was the type that needed lots of sleep and this past week when the job hours went crazy, he made due with 3 hours of sleep one night. The amazing thing was that when he came home after that he went out and played basketball with our youngest! This is a guy in his 50's who could hardly make due with 8 hours of sleep at night. We like to say that now we're growing young together.


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## Beggiatoa

I'm happy to hear of this new ratherbe. I find a better response by lowering my dose to 10 mg per day. I take it first thing in the morning, fasted, with 10-20 mg of lithium orotate. I am amazed how confident I've become and how unafraid I am to approach people and situations. I am also more self-assured AND more assertive. 

The chelated (with glycine) forms are the ones I still use now. When I first tried Mn early this year, 20 mg made me very, very sleepy. So much so, that I eventually discontinued it. I really don't know why it worked so well for me this time around.

You haven't mention if its had any effect on Social anxiety. Well, how do you feel?


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Mn and social anxiety*

Beggiatoa,

Sorry for the delay, I just arrived back in town. It is interesting that you have been able to lower the dose to 10 mg. Do you think this has anything to do with adding the Lithium? I am going to try eventually taking the dose further down to see if it works for us as well. No sense in taking anymore than we need to.

As for the Mn effect on social anxiety, it has improved more for me than for my husband. I would say 75% improvement for me and 50% for my husband. I don't know if the difference has to do with being on opposite sides of the blood sugar spectrum. He tends toward high and I have battled low blood sugar and orthostatic hypotension, all my life. The orthostatic hypotension, from where it has been recently, improved about 50% on the Mn. I then started taking L-Histadine again and it improved a small amount more to the point where my vision loss from the orthostatic hypotension is almost never total.

I couldn't quite get the Thiamine out of my mind and so decided to try one last time with the injectable version to see if that has any greater effect as well. I start that in a week.

Please share more about the Lithium and how you feel that has made Mn work better or is it just a separate item for another symptom? Lord knows the Mn you originally shared with us has been a wonderful energy/ attitude supplement for our family.


----------



## Beggiatoa

By the way, Mn will help both cases of hyper- and hypoglycemia.


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## ratherbesailing

Has adding the Lithium gotten rid of the orthostatic hypotension? Thanks.


----------



## moxosis

http://www.worldshealthiestfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=77#toxicitysymptoms

Although symptoms of manganese toxicity do not typically appear even at high levels of dietary intake, in severe cases of excessive manganese consumption individuals can develop a syndrome called "manganese madness," characterized by hallucinations, violent acts, and irritability. Overconsumption of manganese is also associated with impotency. Manganese toxicity is most likely to occur in people with chronic liver disease, as the liver plays an important role in eliminating excess manganese from the body.

In 2000, the Institute of Medicine at the National Academy of Sciences established the following Tolerable Upper Intake Levels (UL) for manganese:

* Infants: not established (no supplemental manganese should be given)
* 1-3 years: 2 milligrams
* 4-8 years: 3 milligrams
* 9-13 years: 6 milligrams
* 14-18 years, including pregnant and lactating women: 9 milligrams
* Greater than 19 years, including pregnant and lactating women: 11 milligrams

*Maybe info you already*


----------



## Beggiatoa

I stopped Mn for 5 days. All my SA symptoms came back. My energy levels plummeted and I became a loner once again, withdrawn and afraid to leave my house. I also felt very depressed and avoided all types of social communications possible. I took Mn once again this morning and today I have been social, outgoing, etc.

At least for me, Mn really does work.


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Manganese and ?*

Beggiatoa,

The Mn gives us the great energy you speak of and less SA, as I mentioned earlier, and just having more energy helps us "do" in spite of the remaining SA, but now I'm trying to track down the last part and eliminate all of it. I know that Mn is a cofactor for thiamine and was wondering if you still take thiamine with the Mn? Any thoughts on this puzzle? Do we just need to give it more time or might thiamine, lithium, folic acid, or l-glutamine, be the missing final piece to eliminate all of the SA. For my son and I, assertiveness is what seems to have increased the most and we're loving it, but the self consciousness is still there, we're just able to over ride it and not have it control us as much due to the energy from the Mn. It's like having a taste of the banquet, but we can't sit down and eat as much as we'd like!


----------



## Beggiatoa

is magnesium part of your stack? I am also using B6 in the form of pyridoxamine. This increases GABA production which will easy anxiety. I also recently added Arginine and this is helping tremors, so it must be working to upregulate GABA as well.


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Cofactors*

I currently take 400 mg of magnesium glycinate per day, and away from the manganese, and P5P 50 mg twice a day. I am wondering if the form of manganese does indeed matter, even though the gluconate version has done so much. Another experiment for the "human guinea pig", as I am known in my family. Your success spurs me on to find the last missing piece and it seems it should either be the type of Mn or a missing cofactor?

I have indeed found that L-theanine helped knock me out at night when I was having trouble falling asleep, but I somehow got away from using it as I experimented with other supps. I'll have to try using it again with the Mn and see what the synergistic effect is. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Beggiatoa

then try a glycine chelated form of Mn.


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## simbarn

Beggiatoa said:


> I went back to the carlson, 20 mg per day. I take it mid-day along with Lithium orotate and silica, since all these have a synergistic effect. Also, I take it away from magnesium, because they antagonize one another.
> 
> I feel almost euphoric everytime I dose with the carlson product. The chelated form seems to have better absorption.


Hi I have been reading this thread with great interest.

Beggiatoa did you you have any issues with libido or sexual function with your anxiety issues? If so has these supplements helped with that?

I'm very new to this forum. I normally frequent the hormone replacement forums for men in regard to low testosterone.
I have developed quite bad social anxiety over the past few years, and alot of my own research seemed to point to dopamine, testosterone and perhaps maybe growth hormone. I stumbled across this forum while searching for SA info.
I also have developed over the same time period a tremor(essential tremor) in both of my thumbs when they are in tension(not relaxed), plus fatigue and low motivation and drive and many sexual difficulties.

I'm interested to see if these supps have helped you in the libido department also?

I always thought that my issues were hormone related not specifically a neurotransmitter issue, but I could be wrong after reading some of the posts on this forum.

Thanks for any help.


----------



## Beggiatoa

Anything that increases dopamine will also influence your libido. In fact, sometimes, before I get cozy with someone, I'll pop 500 mg Tyrosine just to pep things up a bit. That would seems like a good place for you to start.

Anxiety issues definitely caused sexual side effects, but mostly in the erectile dysfunction department. Epinephrine will kill an erection almost instantly but will also give the best orgasm ever. Erection is controlled by norepinephrine, which is produced from Dopamine directly.


----------



## simbarn

Beggiatoa said:


> Anything that increases dopamine will also influence your libido. In fact, sometimes, before I get cozy with someone, I'll pop 500 mg Tyrosine just to pep things up a bit. That would seems like a good place for you to start.
> 
> Anxiety issues definitely caused sexual side effects, but mostly in the erectile dysfunction department. Epinephrine will kill an erection almost instantly but will also give the best orgasm ever. Erection is controlled by norepinephrine, which is produced from Dopamine directly.


Thanks very much mate.
Yeah I'm sure I have an excess of epinephrine causing problems and a definite lack of dopamine. Whether this lack of dopamine is from low testosterone levels or another cause is the question.
I was put on zanax for awhile and found that my sexual problems improved on a low dose of it. However I didn't want to stay on that stuff because of the other effects and its addictive properties.


----------



## robertz

*Pyrroluria*

Hi there,

You have mentioned manganese and vitamin B6. Don't you see the connection ? The last piece of the puzzle is zinc. These 3 elements are used in treatment of pyrroluria !!! I discovered it some time ago, but it was not until a few days that I got interested in it, so I bought some Pyridoxal-5-phosphate (active form of B6), manganese and zinc. I can tell you for sure it is working, please do your research on pyrroluria.


----------



## odspot

has manganese helped other 'low dopamine' issues like ADD symptoms etc.? i don't have full blown ADD, but i do have OCD, and have always had really bad addictive tendencies. about a year ago, i had a stress-breakdown and have been left with annoying ADD symptoms, while my OCD has kinda faded away for the time being. my social anxiety also came back in full force because i felt so foggy and numb. 

raising NE sorta helps attention, but makes my anxiety worse (which rules out stims .. not that i could ever get one prescribed in my country anyway), so i've been looking at ways of trying to increase dopamine.


----------



## nork123

I just picked up a bottle of chelated manganese to see if i have as much luck with it as some of you guys are having, however the tabs I got are only 8mg, so i'm not sure if I should just take one, or one and a half which would be 12mg because I know the upper limit is 11mg, so would I get the same benfit from 8mg per day?

Also on my bottle it says side effects from long term use can include muscle pain and fatigue, does anyone have any experience or know anything more about these possible side effects?


----------



## simbarn

I have been researching reasons why Mn may be low in some individuals and I came across this.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0887/is_8_18/ai_55587232/

It seems that iron can interfere with Manganese absorption.
Males who generally have a higher serum ferritin level can experience this more so.
Here is an excerpt from something I found:

"Finley and coworkers(1994) reported that men absorbed significantly less manganese that women and that this difference may be related to iron status. A subsequent study specifically demonstrated that high ferritin concentrations were associated with reduced Mn absorption(Finley,1999).
Serum Ferritin concentrations are higher in men and therefore may affect, in part, the lower bioavailability of manganese observed in men."

This is very interesting for me as recent blood tests showed I had serum ferritin way over range.
It was not high enough to suggest hemochromatosis according to my doctor(which I am a little skeptical about), but perhaps it could affect this little mineral?
I have ordered some manganese by Carlsons and will let you all know how it goes.


----------



## Beggiatoa

I read this morning that low levels of Iodine can impair manganese AND magnesium assimilation. 

I can't find the darn source though..v:mum


----------



## simbarn

Beggiatoa said:


> I read this morning that low levels of Iodine can impair manganese AND magnesium assimilation.
> 
> I can't find the darn source though..v:mum


Beggiatoa, is the manganese supplementation stilll having the same effect for you? Still no anxiety and good motivation?


----------



## Beggiatoa

Simbarn,

I still take my 10 mg in the morning and feel fine. I do take breaks from time to time. Saturday night I took 20 mg, since I was going out. A dude that was twice my size challenged me to a fight (for absolutely no reason at all) and I met him head on. We wrestled a bit but he backed down since I fought back. I'm not like this normally.


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Update*

Libido : Have you tried Tribulus? My husband and I have used it since our 40th or so, when we noticed libido heading south, and it returned us to our 20's. We've taken it for years and the only side effect we've had to deal with is an on edge or irritable feeling if the dosage is too high or too frequent. We pace it together so if we're going to skip a day or week, we just both change dosages together. Just my two old cents..

I have continued to experiment and so far have found that the manganese glycinate works as well as the gluconate for me, but not any better. I've also tried B1 injections that had no effect at all and now am working on one other possiblility that I'll update on later.

Several years ago, I tried the pyroluria combination with no effect and even tested for pyroluria and came up as not having it, but the symptom picture is so similar with SA that it did seem like a strong possibility at the time. But I'm sure there are others on the board that it could very much be the answer for. Now, if only I can locate my own issue, I'll be a very happy lady. I am open to all suggestions!


----------



## proximo20

Manganese synergists from acu cell: http://www.acu-cell.com/femn.html

Sodium, lithium, silicon / silica, cobalt, PABA, niacin / niacinamide, Vitamin E, biotin, choline, sugar,* alcohol,*

and antagonists:

Potassium, magnesium, calcium, iodine, nickel, boron, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B15, Vitamin C, [iron], sugar,* alcohol,*

* These can have synergistic or antagonistic action, depending on hypoglycemic or hyperglycemic tendencies.

Importance of Manganese:

Extra supplementation of manganese may be helpful in some cases of carpal tunnel syndrome, deafness, epilepsy, infertility, and lack of libido in both sexes. In addition, individuals who regularly dislocate joints (particularly knee joints), frequently present with insufficient manganese levels, so normalizing manganese in those cases will permanently resolve that problem. On the other hand, excessive manganese levels increase the risk for tendon / ligament tears.

Manganese is important to many enzyme systems such as protein metabolism, bone formation, and the synthesis of L-dopamine and cholesterol, as well as carbohydrate metabolism, where it is required for the synthesis of glucose from non-carbohydrate substances (gluconeogenesis). As a cofactor in
glycolysis, manganese aids glucose metabolism.

Manganese may help with some symptoms of Parkinson's disease such as muscle rigidity and twitching, although an excessive level of manganese can in itself produce Parkinsonian syndrome from a loss of dopamine in the brain cells.


----------



## STKinTHEmud

After reading this post, I was thinking that I might try getting up to 10mg manganese using whole foods and my multivitamin (2mg). Do you think whole foods would have the same effect as Mn supplements?


----------



## Beggiatoa

I've been feeling unexplainably depressed for a couple weeks. I've been changing my stack around a bit, adding, removing things. I could also be due to a lack of sleep, lately.

Guess I have to figure out what's doing what.


----------



## robertz

Beggiatoa said:


> I've been feeling unexplainably depressed for a couple weeks. I've been changing my stack around a bit, adding, removing things. I could also be due to a lack of sleep, lately.
> 
> Guess I have to figure out what's doing what.


Hi Beggiatoa, I've been feeling exactly the same. And the only addition to my supplements is manganese ! (well, and some zinc).

I don't know what's going on, but I feel like my brain is not working properly, could it be manganese ??? I'm feeling down, sleepy and dizzy at times...


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Manganese - is it the dosage?*

I experienced the same thing just recently, but not overnight. I just noticed that both the energy and the SA were deteriorating again, albeit slowly. Then I realized that this had occurred after the dosage was lowered and I'd even been taking only 10 mg some days. Then I read that Manganese may work because it lowers the copper levels, which can cause anxiety and paranoia and that once again someone was recommending up to 50mg was okay in a therapeutic dose, (and 2-5 mg in a maintenance dose once copper levels were normal) so up I went again to 50 mg and I'm fine again, no depression and significant reduction in SA. I'm hoping that maybe I just need a higher dose for a prolonged period of time to lower copper and then I'll see complete cessation of the SA?


----------



## Beggiatoa

Seems like my temporary run-in with depression was due to lack of sleep. With hospitals, rotations and 24 hour services, I was simply not getting enough. I made up for all that this Friday. Went to bed at 5 pm, woke up the next day at 11 am and I'm feeling lots better.

robertz,

Those symptoms you describe sound like its coming from the zinc. How much are you using and what kind? I use optizinc 30 mg and It makes me feel a little dizzy as well. I usually reserve this for the night time for that very reason.

ratherbesailing,

50 mg just seems like an awful high dose. I would check your serum copper AND manganese levels just so we're not second guessing here. I'm still using 10 mg carlson glycinate on an empty stomach, first thing in the morning and this is working for me.

Have you considered a hair mineral analysis?


----------



## robertz

Beggiatoa said:


> robertz,
> 
> Those symptoms you describe sound like its coming from the zinc. How much are you using and what kind? I use optizinc 30 mg and It makes me feel a little dizzy as well. I usually reserve this for the night time for that very reason.


I also take 30 mg, but in comes in the form of zinc glycinate. And the multi I take contains 20 mg more, but not the chelated form.

I find that some supps work great for me, but after a few days they start to give me side effects. A good example would be 5-HTP, but also L-Tyrosine and other aminos. I suspect my liver is malfunctioning, because I've been diagnosed with gilbert's syndrome.


----------



## proximo20

Google whatever you are taking with serotonin. I used to be just like you guys described when I was taking ginger pills. Then I found out that ginger inhibits serotonin.


----------



## Beggiatoa

For any Liver problems, this product is very, very good:

http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Mega-Silymarin-with-Isosilybin-B-100-Capsules/13357?at=0

I also have liver problems, this product is freaking fantastic! Brought my liver enzymes in no time.


----------



## robertz

Beggiatoa said:


> For any Liver problems, this product is very, very good:
> 
> http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Mega-Silymarin-with-Isosilybin-B-100-Capsules/13357?at=0
> 
> I also have liver problems, this product is freaking fantastic! Brought my liver enzymes in no time.


I will give it a try, as soon as i place my next iherb order, thanks.

Have you tried TMG (tri methyl glycine) ? Some people say it is very good for the liver.


----------



## ratherbesailing

*Copper levels*

I had hair analysis done several years ago and at the time they used Molybdenum and zinc to try to bring down the copper levels. It was only somewhat successful. I hadn't thought of Mn as lowering copper levels until reading it recently, but it would be interesting if it does indeed lower my levels finally. I'm currently going down in dose again, but a lot slower and paying attention that I"m not giving up ground as I do so. Does anyone know of other supps that would bring down copper?


----------



## Beggiatoa

ratherbesailing said:


> I had hair analysis done several years ago and at the time they used Molybdenum and zinc to try to bring down the copper levels. It was only somewhat successful. I hadn't thought of Mn as lowering copper levels until reading it recently, but it would be interesting if it does indeed lower my levels finally. I'm currently going down in dose again, but a lot slower and paying attention that I"m not giving up ground as I do so. Does anyone know of other supps that would bring down copper?


IP6, resveratrol.


----------



## jscov

Any update among those taking Manganese and how it's working for you?

Please include the form (gluconate, glycinate, etc) and amount you're taking. I understand some of you may have started at a different amount, so I'd like to hear that as well since I'll just be starting. Also, please let me know if you're stacking it with something. And if you are stacking it, did you not get the same results with just manganese?

I'm basically looking for something to improve confidence, anxiety, SA, motivation, etc. Manganese might not cover all areas, but it seems like it's worth a try and see what it helps for me.

Edit to add: I guess I should mention I already take a multi-v, multi-min, grape seed and krill oil, etc. for general health. Taking some calcium, glucosamine, msm, chondrotin, curcumin temporarily for a recent TMJ inflammation (working good). And for anxiety I've been taking Amoryn and Seredyn, which works but I've got a little more stress lately and still have never been a confident/open/outgoing person on it.


----------



## AndyLT

Could anyone summarize the main points from this thread?


----------



## jarrod2279

I'm on to my second bottle of manganese which is a sure sign for me that it does something or is so benign as to not cause any untoward side effects. I got the idea from reading this thread.

I took it for a few weeks back in December then had a had a few weeks off in January when I ran out and didn't have the nerve to go to a health food shop and buy some more. Now within a few days of taking it again I'm feeling more confident and I'm itching for more social contact.

I'm taking 40mg manganese morning and 20mg manganese at night.
Also the only other thing is 1000mg vitamin c in the morning.
On top of this I try to exercise daily.

I've tried just about every psychotropic medication under the sun and I'm sensitive to side effects even when they work.

Hope this helps


----------



## Beggiatoa

jarrod2279 said:


> I'm on to my second bottle of manganese which is a sure sign for me that it does something or is so benign as to not cause any untoward side effects. I got the idea from reading this thread.
> 
> I took it for a few weeks back in December then had a had a few weeks off in January when I ran out and didn't have the nerve to go to a health food shop and buy some more. Now within a few days of taking it again I'm feeling more confident and I'm itching for more social contact.
> 
> I'm taking 40mg manganese morning and 20mg manganese at night.
> Also the only other thing is 1000mg vitamin c in the morning.
> On top of this I try to exercise daily.
> 
> I've tried just about every psychotropic medication under the sun and I'm sensitive to side effects even when they work.
> 
> Hope this helps


That seems like an awful high dose. I would be careful. On most days, I do not go any higher than 10 mg. When I want that extra perk, I'll try 20 mg but never more than a few days.


----------



## chrono

Beggiatoa said:


> On most days, I do not go any higher than 10 mg. When I want that extra perk, I'll try 20 mg but never more than a few days.


Sounds like a reasonable dosage, based on the recommendations and studies. Are you still using the Carlson chelated glycinate? And are you doing it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, or mid-day with lithium and silica? (btw, what kind of silica product do you mean, here?)

My biggest question after reading this thread is whether you feel a dose immediately, or if it takes time to build up effects? Can you take 10-20mg for a social occasion while not on a regimen, and feel it working that day? How about bumping a regimented dose up by 10mg?

It sounds like you probably don't have any attentional problems, but do you notice any other pronounced dopaminergic effects from manganese? You mentioned that it's better for SA than selegiline, tyrosine, and pramipexole. I'd be very interested to hear how the effect is different (stronger, more selective to the problem?) compared to these agents. Are you able to make a comparison to the dopamine component of adderall?

This is an awesome thread. Thanks for all the reports and ideas!


----------



## Beggiatoa

I still use the carlson brand, first thing in the morning. I dropped silica and lithium. The lithium is contraindicated with another problem Im dealing with and silica to reduce cost.

The 10 mg dose i do not feel right away, it's more of a build-up effect. With 20 mg, Im good to go. Manganese has many effects on the body but I mostly pay attention to the SA effect.

I made another thread on the use of citicoline and folic acid. Those are also important for dopamine production and Im also using. Read through the info. I posted there. You'll find it very interesting.


----------



## Ambivert

So should I take 5-HTP or just take Manganese for SA/Depression?


----------



## Prevail

*Manganese*

This post has inspired great interest in hope for me, how about an update? Are you still experiencing these feelings of confidence you have described throughout this post, have the dwindled at all through the duration of you taking the supplement? Are there any known interactions, I plan to research this supplement more myself, but I do take St. John's wort and it is known to interfere with other drugs/supplements deeming them useless. do you think this would pose a problem? Also, you seem to be very intelligent and educated when talking about SA, do you work in a health related field or have you just done a butt ton of research?


----------



## NecaEum

Offtopic: Whoa, I had an account on this site! It seems that I lurked here very briefly a year ago or something. High dose vitamin D3 tremendously lessened my SA so I guess that was my main reason for not visiting this forum for a long time. //(You last visited: 02-17-2009 at 08:16 PM)

Thanks for the OP and others in this thread for sharing their experiences regarding manganese. I have found that there are dramatic differences in the forms of mineral supplementation and you have (hopefully) helped me pick the forms that actually work from iherb.com. I chose to order both Carlson (Mn glycinate) and Twinlab (Mn gluconate), same as the OP. I will receive them in less than two weeks and will be giving you guys at least a brief report on the effects.

I have tried many many vitamins, minerals and aminoacids etc, with some incredible (although not always positive) results. My main incentive to try Mn is my peculiar response to zinc supplementation (LEF OptiZinc to be precise). I responded very quickly (within an hour, 60mg of zinc) with what could be described as a hypomanic state: I felt very excited, had spontaneus erections (I suffer from lack of libido/impotence), felt like a man for the first time in my life and was pretty much shaking excitement. It was not entirely pleasant, I became quite concerned that I might actually die that night. After multiple hours the effect subsided and I was able to go to sleep at around 5 a.m. or so. In the days following I felt very bad, however. I will not go into details, but the reason I am trying manganese is that I believe there is a possibility that the negative effects of zinc supplementation could be manganese related: a last piece of the puzzle, so to speak.


----------



## Grahf

anomal2 said:


> Science's goal is to prevent threads like this one.


:clap
My thoughts exactly.
Carl Sagan's baloney detection kit goes off the scale here, really. From "friend of a friend" sourcing, to wholly unsubstantiated and sweeping statements, self-report, circular logic, and the drawing of flawed conclusions from fundamental misunderstanding/misrepresentations of data, this thread is just a morass of the typical psuedo-science that *laypersons* engage in on the internet these days.

The bottom line:
*NEVER* let an internet forum post serve as a diagnosis for a particular health condition, and more importantly, *NEVER* let an internet forum post prescribe a treatment for one.



counterfeit self said:


> So should I take 5-HTP or just take Manganese for SA/Depression?


Case in point.

This is not something you should be asking an unaccredited, unqualified forum poster on the internet. 

(sigh)
The internet really is a double-edged sword. There's an unbelievable wealth of information at our fingertips, but there's just as much bull**** and just as many people who think that a few hours of reading are the same thing as years of education and experience in a particular field. There's arguably more quackery going around these days than there was during the golden age of medicine shows and snake oil at the turn of the last century.

Please be careful folks.


----------



## Ambivert

Grahf said:


> :clap
> My thoughts exactly.
> Carl Sagan's baloney detection kit goes off the scale here, really. From "friend of a friend" sourcing, to wholly unsubstantiated and sweeping statements, self-report, circular logic, and the drawing of flawed conclusions from fundamental misunderstanding/misrepresentations of data, this thread is just a morass of the typical psuedo-science that *laypersons* engage in on the internet these days.
> 
> The bottom line:
> *NEVER* let an internet forum post serve as a diagnosis for a particular health condition, and more importantly, *NEVER* let an internet forum post prescribe a treatment for one.
> 
> Case in point.
> 
> This is not something you should be asking an unaccredited, unqualified forum poster on the internet.
> 
> (sigh)
> The internet really is a double-edged sword. There's an unbelievable wealth of information at our fingertips, but there's just as much bull**** and just as many people who think that a few hours of reading are the same thing as years of education and experience in a particular field. There's arguably more quackery going around these days than there was during the golden age of medicine shows and snake oil at the turn of the last century.
> 
> Please be careful folks.


If you're such a smarty pants, go ahead and cite studies/evidence like the other people in this thread supporting your anti-manganese position...


----------



## JimmyDeansRetartedCousin

Probably not?


----------



## jarrod2279

Beggiatoa said:


> That seems like an awful high dose. I would be careful. On most days, I do not go any higher than 10 mg. When I want that extra perk, I'll try 20 mg but never more than a few days.


Agreed, thanks for pointing that out.

60mg had me seeing shadows that weren't there and bugs crawling on the wall. I haven't experienced visual disturbances ever so this felt quite freaky.

20mg is the maximum I'm taking now on any given day and even that feels a shade strong. It's been a matter of trial and error.


----------



## mark555666

Jarrod. Do you ever used meds? If so does manganese give a similar effect like them?


----------



## fastpara

Can you please post a link where I can buy the right one so I can try it.


----------



## Prevail

The brand the poster was referring to is Carlson, you can find it anywhere, such places as amazon or iherb carry it. I just wanted to chime in my little experience with Manganese. 

Today was the first day I got the bottle of 20 mg Carlson chelated, and I must say it was a rather pecuilar experience. I am already a somewhat aggressive person by nature, not necessarily is social situations (obviously), but if my social actions were not so inhibited I have no doubt I would come off as rather aggressive. In the first hour of taking this supplement I noticed an increase in aggression, more so then usual, and also the fact I was more willing to act on it. This could looked at as either a negative or a positive. After the initial effects it leveled off and I tended to have more of a general confidence accompanied by calmness without the forced agression, this lasting for a few hours afterwards. Although this is my first time with the supplement, I must say I was rather surprised and there is something to it.


----------



## Beggiatoa

Prevail, that's the same way I felt when I started using. I stopped holding back like I usually did and simply acted on will. Kinda cool


----------



## robertz

Prevail said:


> The brand the poster was referring to is Carlson, you can find it anywhere, such places as amazon or iherb carry it. I just wanted to chime in my little experience with Manganese.
> 
> Today was the first day I got the bottle of 20 mg Carlson chelated, and I must say it was a rather pecuilar experience. I am already a somewhat aggressive person by nature, not necessarily is social situations (obviously), but if my social actions were not so inhibited I have no doubt I would come off as rather aggressive. In the first hour of taking this supplement I noticed an increase in aggression, more so then usual, and also the fact I was more willing to act on it. This could looked at as either a negative or a positive. After the initial effects it leveled off and I tended to have more of a general confidence accompanied by calmness without the forced agression, this lasting for a few hours afterwards. Although this is my first time with the supplement, I must say I was rather surprised and there is something to it.


I (sometimes) feel that way after taking L-Tyrosine. But just if i'm in a bad mood that day.


----------



## jarrod2279

Freesix88 said:


> Jarrod. Do you ever used meds? If so does manganese give a similar effect like them?


I wouldn't like to compare manganese to any of the many meds I've tried, simply because at the end of the day it is a mineral supplement.
It's provided relief from an irritable bowel, mild hypoglycemia and absorption of B vitamins - they were the main benefits.
It tends to make me more aggressive (similar to bupropion, there you go I did compare) - not always helpful.
If I take too much I get stiff joints, sore tendons and feel tired (similar tiredness to citalopram).
Also my skin dries out a bit, particularly on my face - which is neither here nor there.

So although manganese has some benefits for me, I'm back considering which med I'll return to. In terms of social anxiety it can't beat meds like diazepam, citalopram, venlafaxine or lamotrigine (even though they have side effects that suck).

Cheers,
Jarrod


----------



## chrono

*my experience thus far*

I've been taking Carlson chelated manganese for about a month now, less a week or so of flu. I can report a definite effect, though perhaps not as pronounced as other members have reported in this thread.

I started by taking a whole pill (20mg) in the morning, even though this is higher than the long-term dose I want. Didn't notice anything for about 3-4 days. Then about half an hour after my dose I would experience a subtle yet pronounced dopamine response: emotional warmth, that feeling that things are ok and I can do what I want without inescapable doubt. A feeling in the same category as adderall or transdermal nicotine, though of course with many different qualities and without any stimulation.

From my experience and research into other medications, I doubt that this magnitude of dopamine response is sustainable, and 20mg _may _be unsafe in the long run. So after a few days I dropped down to 5mg in the morning and again at midday. The response at this dose is very close to my threshold of detection. Honestly it does a little for my social anxiety, but nothing significant like stronger medications or a 20mg dose. However, I think my social anxiety problems could be due to PTSD and resultant psychological patterns, so my response may not be typical.

What I can say is that it seems to be helping with my attentional and motivational problems to a more noticeable degree. I feel more able to pay attention to the things I like over a longer period, and less prone to jumping around between tasks every couple of minutes.



Grahf said:


> Carl Sagan's baloney detection kit goes off the scale here, really. From "friend of a friend" sourcing, to wholly unsubstantiated and sweeping statements, self-report, circular logic, and the drawing of flawed conclusions from fundamental misunderstanding/misrepresentations of data, this thread is just a morass of the typical psuedo-science that *laypersons* engage in on the internet these days.


Several members here have constructed a hypothesis based on solid science, considered personal experimentation, and careful weighing of the risks and benefits. That seems to me the essence of science.

Yours is easily the most misleading post in this thread. What you've done is leveled every conceivable criticism at the discussion as a whole, without bothering to say which aspects they apply to. At best, a lazy and fallacious response. Is your derisive use of the word _layperson _supposed to imply that you're above such discourse?

You might start by detailing how companies like Carlson and Twinlab are in any way questionable sourcing, how a mechanism based in literature is "unsubstantiated," and another method by which an individual is able to judge personal efficacy of a social anxiety treatment, other than _self-reporting_.


----------



## DrewDrewson

So this store bought mineral is enough to be considered pro social? Are you still taking it, or anyone else on here for that matter? Seems so hard to believe. I can't find anything online about its therapeutic effects. I guess I'll just have to give it a try.


----------



## NecaEum

*Inconclusive results*

Okay, so I tried the manganese glycinate chelate from Carlson, and some of the Twinlab gluconate. I was supposed to post a long time ago, but I guess I was not very motivated to post negative results.

So anyway, the only thing I seem to be relatively sure about is that at high doses ( > 20 mg/d) my head felt weird. I also noticed that initially when taking manganese I had joint pains, which then subsided. I also had very bad insomnia in the beginning, which eased when I stopped manganese. I reckon it was due to other causes, however. I also noticed increased tolerance to zinc, which I have difficulty tolerating. It was likely due to other causes as well, though.

Anyway, I was unable to get any clear results of any kind. Except that it seemed to make my head feel odd.


----------



## chrono

*dopamine mechanism, and a change in course*

I'm still taking manganese at 2x5mg daily, but am considering stopping. My determination of its efficacy was based on the definite response to taking 20mg at once, and assuming a smaller dose would have a more sustainable beneficial effect.

I still think this is valid, but am considering stopping because of the possibility of tolerance. This paper was posted earlier in the thread, but I just got around to reading the full text. Here is a passage I found relevant:



> _Environ Health Perspect. 2009 Mar;117(3):325-32.] Epub 2008 Oct 3._
> *Manganese neurotoxicity: lessons learned from longitudinal studies in nonhuman primates.*
> 
> _Dopaminergic synapses_
> In an early study (Chen et al. 2006b), we examined the effect of acute Mn exposure on DAT levels in baboons as assessed by PET and post mortem analysis. *Acute Mn exposure caused a transient increase in DAT levels within 1 week of exposure that normalized after approximately 1 month.*...Further, it was shown that Mn *inhibits [3H]-dopamine uptake* in rat striatal synaptosomes. Although Mn has no effect on the affinity (Kd) of the cocaine analog [3H]-WIN 35,428 binding to DAT, we observed a statistically significant 30% reduction of the Bmax, indicating that *although Mn has no effect of the affinity of the DAT ligand, it reduces the available number of binding sites. This suggested that Mn may affect the presynaptic dopaminergic neuronal terminal through modulation of DAT function and levels.*
> ...
> We have also used neuroimaging and neuropathologic techniques to comprehensively probe the effect of chronic Mn exposure in cynomolgus macaques on multiple parameters of the dopaminergic synapse. The most dramatic change observed with *chronic Mn exposure was a reduction in the capacity of striatal dopamine release*...Importantly, an animal receiving the highest dose of Mn (8.3-10.0 mg/kg/week) that expressed dystonia and dyskinesias also exhibited the largest decline in AMPH-induced dopa mine release from a baseline of 44% to 8.0% release after only 7 weeks of Mn exposure.
> ...
> These findings indicate that Mn-induced motor function deficits are caused by mechanisms that inhibit dopamine release in the presence of normal levels of dopamine and an intact nigrostriatal dopa mine system. This view is in contrast to theories suggesting that Mn neurotoxicity is mediated by an effect on post-synaptic dopamine receptors.
> ...
> This is consistent with previously published reports that *Mn is a substrate for DAT and that Mn inhibits binding of a cocaine analog to DAT and inhibits dopamine uptake in striatal synaptosomes.*


Obviously none of this is conclusive, as this is an animal study and many of the effects described are dose-dependent.

This imaging data indicates that the increase in dopamine is a result of decreased binding sites on dopamine transporters (responsible for reuptake). But I question the sustainability of this effect. It seems possible the brain could adjust to this if either it becomes tolerant to manganese and the effect lessens, or by increasing the number of binding sites. Tolerance occurs to just about every dopaminergic, and the usual solution of upping the dose is contraindicated here due to toxicity concerns.

(The fact that acute Mn produces a brief _increase _in DAT over the short term is interesting. In my experience, a ~20mg dose produced a significant response either the first or second time I took it, but I didn't continue this dose for long. This suggests to me that the decrease in binding sites overpowers this effect, or that there is actually a dip in effectiveness after the first few days which quickly levels out)

Also relevant to sustained usage is that a dose-dependent decrease in dopamine release was the most "dramatic" effect observed due chronic exposure.

There are several mentions of mechanisms of adverse neural effects apart from the broad effects of PD symptoms:



> The *disruption of mitochondrial activity* by Mn is well documented. Mn2+ uses the calcium uniporter to gain entrance into mitochondria (Gavin et al. 1999). In the mitochondria, the bulk of Mn is bound to the inner mitochondrial membrane or matrix proteins (Gavin et al. 1999). This allows Mn to directly interact with proteins involved in oxidative phosphorylation.
> 
> 
> The generation of *reactive oxygen species* is intimately linked to mitochondrial activities, and there is much evidence to support the role of reactive oxygen species in Mn neurotoxicity...Addition of Mn to cultured astrocytes increases 2′,7′-dichlorofluoroscein fluorescence indicative of increased reactive oxygen species, and *coincubation of N-acetylcysteine [NAC] blocks Mn toxicity*.
> 
> 
> It is known that in vitro Mn can promote *autooxidation of dopamine*, which leads to the creation of reactive dopa mine quinones...Additional evidence from nonhuman primate data suggests a *Mn-induced post synaptic decrease of D2-like dopamine receptor levels*.
> 
> 
> In vitro studies have implicated Mn in the reduction of glutamate transporter expression and astrocytic glutamate uptake. These alterations could negatively impact synaptic glutamate metabolism and distribution.
> 
> 
> Accumulating evidence indicates that Mn may indirectly affect neuronal function by damaging glial cells.
> 
> 
> Mn did cause a reduction in GS in the globus pallidus, a glial-specific enzyme that converts glutamate into glutamine as part of the glutamate recycling process...Reductions in GS levels can cause dysregulation of the glutamate recycling pathway, and by mass action, a reduction in the conversion of glutamate into glutamine could lead to an increase in intracellular glutamate concentrations in astrocytes and a potential spillover into the synapse with the potential to cause excitotoxicity in the globus pallidus.
> 
> 
> ...Mn promoted modulation of genes related to inflammation, *apoptosis*, cell cycle, protein turnover and folding, synaptic function, and cholesterol homeostasis. These observations suggested that Mn may promote inflammation and cell death in the frontal cortex.


Again, these are even more dose-dependent. Many of these effects were based on studies at high chronic dosages, for instance, 3.5mg/kg/day in monkeys. However, I'm forced to wonder if _none _of these mechanisms are in play when elevating my levels 10mg above dietary intake.

(Of particular interest in the above data is that NAC effectively prevents damage due to oxidative stress.)

In light of these concerns, I'm going to experiment with taking 20mg on an as-needed basis, maybe once a week. I hope someone else can add their thoughts on the DA/T actions, or the dose-dependence of neurotoxicity.


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## Beggiatoa

Hey chrono, great post. Very thorough. I also use Mn on an as needed basis. I came across some studies that also showed NAC reduces Mn tox probably by "using it up" to make MnSOD. I posted one on imminst a few days ago under the name "lufega".

I would be curious to get my blood levels checked but I don't have access where I am.

I am not too worried about the toxicity part. The doses used in these studies are insanely high. (the highest dose of Mn (8.3–10.0 mg/kg/week) I weight about 86 kg, so I would need 860 mg at the highest dose to produce this effect. Still, however, there is room for caution.


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## chrono

Thanks lufega. I don't think neurotoxicity is of practical concern at these doses, either. Hopefully these kinds of studies will raise enough questions that more research will be conducted in dietary/supplement dose ranges. My decision to use this occasionally was motivated almost entirely by concerns about tolerance.

Just read the Mn/L-DOPA abstract. I'll definitely be picking up some NAC with my next order. At least for use with Mn and other substances which may cause oxidative stress; I still have a small question with regard to the overblown PAH issue before I use it every day.

Though I wonder, if Mn is being converted to MnSOD, is less available for our purposes? I suppose it depends on how quickly this conversion takes place:



> _Environ Health Perspect. 2009 Mar;117(3):325-32.] Epub 2008 Oct 3.
> 
> _Once Mn has crossed the blood-brain barrier, the average half-life of Mn in the rat brain is 51-74 days. In nonhuman primates, available data suggest that the rate of elimination in the brain has region specificity; however, estimates of half-life range from = 33 days to 53 days after inhalational and subcutaneous Mn exposure, respectively.


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## podizzle

tried 10,20mg of twinlab and didnt notice much so i just tried a 40mg dose. I'll keep you guys updated.


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## teaser

NecaEum said:


> Offtopic: Whoa, I had an account on this site! It seems that I lurked here very briefly a year ago or something. High dose vitamin D3 tremendously lessened my SA so I guess that was my main reason for not visiting this forum for a long time. //(You last visited: 02-17-2009 at 08:16 PM)
> 
> Thanks for the OP and others in this thread for sharing their experiences regarding manganese. I have found that there are dramatic differences in the forms of mineral supplementation and you have (hopefully) helped me pick the forms that actually work from iherb.com. I chose to order both Carlson (Mn glycinate) and Twinlab (Mn gluconate), same as the OP. I will receive them in less than two weeks and will be giving you guys at least a brief report on the effects.
> 
> I have tried many many vitamins, minerals and aminoacids etc, with some incredible (although not always positive) results. My main incentive to try Mn is my peculiar response to zinc supplementation (LEF OptiZinc to be precise). I responded very quickly (within an hour, 60mg of zinc) with what could be described as a hypomanic state: I felt very excited, had spontaneus erections (I suffer from lack of libido/impotence), felt like a man for the first time in my life and was pretty much shaking excitement. It was not entirely pleasant, I became quite concerned that I might actually die that night. After multiple hours the effect subsided and I was able to go to sleep at around 5 a.m. or so. In the days following I felt very bad, however. I will not go into details, but the reason I am trying manganese is that I believe there is a possibility that the negative effects of zinc supplementation could be manganese related: a last piece of the puzzle, so to speak.


I recently tried both Creatine and Glutamine, hoping they would help with my SA. What I didn't realize, is that they are both possible inducers of manic episodes. So I ended up manic. That got me reading up about mania.Check this out;


> Testosterone-Patch-Induced Psychotic Mania "To the Editor: With the introduction of new antiviral agents, longevity has increased for many AIDS patients, along with the potential for AIDS wasting syndrome. Suggested remedies for this syndrome have included growth hormone, marijuana, appetite stimulants, ketotifen, exercise, anabolic steroids, and most recently, the testosterone patch. The effects of anabolic steroids on behavior have long been recognized and include mood lability, irritability, euphoria, insomnia, aggression, and sometimes delusions or hallucinations. Reports of behavioral effects of exogenous testosterone are limited and inconsistent (1). One study of intramuscular testosterone for male sexual dysfunction found irritability and uncharacteristic assertiveness in some patients (2), but there are no documented behavioral side effects of the testosterone patch. We report the first case of psychotic mania associated with testosterone patch administration.


http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/156/6/969Zinc is necessary to testosterone production; you may have had an adverse reaction to the rapid increase of your testosterone levels. Lack of libido without zinc? Spontaneous erections with? Sure sounds like it.You may have been severely zinc-deficient. You may still be. And this may be a good thing --you might turn out to be one of those people who finds out that his problem all along was a simple nutrient deficiency. If you haven't already, you should see a doctor, have your testosterone levels checked, tell him about your experience with zinc.


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## Beggiatoa

Jarrod,

It seems that dose of Mn you used was too high and it produced some neurotoxic effect. I found studies that claimed N-acetyl cysteine can be used in these instances to prevent further damage. Chelator like IP6 also come into mind.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10461907

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16384640

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1572135/pdf/130-0703379a.pdf


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## podizzle

well didnt notice 40mg so i'll try 50mg now. probably not going higher than 60mg since theres reports of visual disturbances.


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## chrono

podizzle said:


> well didnt notice 40mg so i'll try 50mg now. probably not going higher than 60mg since theres reports of visual disturbances.


This is already very very high. Take a break after you try it again. But I doubt another 25% is going to be noticeable if this high dose already does nothing.

The subtle dopamine-enhancing effect will probably only make a difference for certain kinds of neurochemistry.


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## shazzaTPM

Wait, just to clarify. You can buy manganese supplements without a doctors prescription?


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## joegolden

*manganese forms...*

hey everyone,couldn't help but join the conversation,if your not familiar with pyroluria look into it...zinc manganese and b6 are to be supplemented...anyways the comment i wanted to make was concernin the manganese dosage you guys are using...if your using a manganese gluconate supplement its only 11 percent elemental manganese so with that being said if you take(like i am 10mg pills of it)it your only getting 1mg of elemental a day,the rda is 2-5 from my understanding,actually its more of a range thats recommended anyway if one wanted to get 40 mg of real elemental manganese they would have to take like 400mg a day of the gluconate form,what dosages and form are you guys using?thanks


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## chrono

What I'm using (Carlson's Manganese Glycinate) lists only the amount of elemental manganese (20mg) per pill.


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## joegolden

good stuff,its worth noting though the human body only contains around 20mg total so im wondering how much if that it being supplemented actually gets used,Do you think the body uses it for other stuff,such as antioxidant activity whereas the body uses the 20mg according to my sources in bone?


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## metallicafan69

I doubt that their is any relevance to low manganese levels and high anxiety in social situations.


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## clovereater

Just wondering if anyone is still using manganese? If so what kind of results have you been getting?
I've used it on and off for a couple of weeks. I've definitely noticed it making me more relaxed and talkative. Dose was 8mg-24mg each time. I didn't take more due to worry about toxicity. Brand is solgar chelated manganese 8mg.


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## Payn

Any updates ?


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## nork123

I've got a bottle of the carlson stuff lying around that I use on and off, I experience a very slight euphoria when I take it and a slight relaxation in my mood and feel a little bit more talkative. Nothing as profound as what some people seem to achieve from it though


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## Payn

Can anyone please summarize the main points from this thread ? For example, what brands of supplements ?, what dosage of supplements ?, etc.


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## robertz

Please, take a look at this:

_As we get older it gets harder and harder for the brain to form the enzyme necessary to make GABA from glutamic acid; *manganese can correct this*.11,12,13_

----------------------------------

And here are the studies mentioned:

11 Denman, R.B., Wedler, F.C. 1984. Association-dissociation of mammalian brain glutamine synthetase: effects of metal ions and other ligands. _Archives of Biochemistry and Biophysics_. 232(2):427-440.
12 Rajeswari, T.S., Radha, E. 1984. Metabolism of the glutamate group of amino acids in rat brain as a function of age. _Mechanisms of Ageing and Development_. 24(2):139-150.
13 Lai et al., 1984. _Ibid_.

Source: http://www.naturalstresscare.org/GABA.aspx


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## chrono

I'm taking this a couple of times a month now, partly because I haven't had many opportunities to be social this summer. I take 300-600mg of NAC on days when I do.

@robertz: Thanks for posting that! Seems to imply that supplementing small amounts of Mg might make more sense as you get older.

@Payn: First, it should be pointed out that this idea is largely experimental, with no guarantee that it will work for you. Basically, manganese increases the amount of time dopamine can hang around in your brain, in much the same way SSRIs do for serotonin (though no other similarities exist, don't worry). But tolerance may develop, and there's a chance of neurotoxicity if larger doses are used, so it's probably best used occasionally. Carlson's Chelated Manganese seems to be what a few of us are using, though I doubt there's a huge difference between brands of quality. Doses of 10-20mg seem to produce a noticeable effect for those of us who respond to it.


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## Payn

Recently I ordered some of these supplements like Manganese, Zinc, Vit.P5P, Magnesium Glycinate... I would like to know, how do I use them ? What size dose should I take? What combination of these supplements do you suggest ? thanks.


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## Beggiatoa

Payn, I suggest you add one at a time and judge how each affects you before you move on to the next. For manganese, I would advice not to go higher than 10 mg per day. Maybe 20 but only short term. The rest I think have been discussed here in detail. SEarch the forum.


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## ju_pa

2tsp+ of cinnamon works well for me too. But being careless isn't something that will diminish SA alone. Having clear thought, mental energy etc. are few others that you need. You have to have that vocabulary memory working well, to get words popping up in your mind when having conversation.


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## Murdz

I think I have an idea as to why manganese might be helpful. I read that for your body to use taurine, it needs zinc and manganese present.

"Taurine is closely bound to zinc & manganese so deficiencies of either of these can interfere with its' utilization. Likewise, zinc & manganese enhance the effects of taurine."

http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/011500.htm


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## ju_pa

Murdz said:


> I think I have an idea as to why manganese might be helpful. I read that for your body to use taurine, it needs zinc and manganese present.
> 
> "Taurine is closely bound to zinc & manganese so deficiencies of either of these can interfere with its' utilization. Likewise, zinc & manganese enhance the effects of taurine."
> 
> http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/011500.htm


I read that too. It has been pondering in my mind to try out taurine. Afterall it's so important and MSG depletes Taurine. Most of SA sufferers are MSG sensitive.

That should open someones eyes: http://www.msgtruth.org/NEWUNIFIEDTHEORY.pdf


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## clovereater

I am still using this most days to help cope with work. I take 2x 8mg pills from solgar mid morning. I love the effect. For me it's similar to Xanax without the brain fog. It lasts most of the day also. The feeling is very natural. Worry is just reduced overall. I think mn may work by increasing GABA as it is so similar to Xanax in it's effect.


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## clovereater

Interesting study I found: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20832424

'These data suggest that Mn increases GABA(EC) by inhibiting the function of GAT'


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## Murdz

I remember taking SAMe about a year ago. I didn't feel a thing. I know for sure i'm undermethylated so I found my box of SAMe under my bed 2 days ago and decided to take it. Without a doubt it's working now! Since manganese deals with the utilization of sulfur perhaps SAMe needs manganese to work properly. 

An interesting thing I've discovered is that the source most anxiety problems is a copper overload. When copper is high in a person manganese and zinc will usually be low. This would explain why manganese works so well for us.


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## clovereater

Mn does lower copper. Not sure if that's how it's working for me. I had my copper levels tested and they were fine.
Found something else related to mn and GABA on another forum.

'Dr. Eric Braverman says that manganese (not magnesium) plus b6 are necessary to convert glutatamic acid (glutamate) into gaba, the calming 'cousin' of glutamine.'

http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?5813-The-Glutamate-Blocker-Namenda

Recently I tried taking 500mg of glutamine on an empty stomach. It made me extremely anxious. I wonder do some of us have a problem making GABA in our brains from the precursor glutamate (which itself is made from dietary glutamine). If our brains are producing too much glutamate and too little GABA we will be out of balance and will likely 
have anxiety problems.


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## robertz

clovereater said:


> Recently I tried taking 500mg of glutamine on an empty stomach. It made me extremely anxious. I wonder do some of us have a problem making GABA in our brains from the precursor glutamate (which itself is made from dietary glutamine). If our brains are producing too much glutamate and too little GABA we will be out of balance and will likely
> have anxiety problems.


I can't take glutamine either, it makes me aggressive and obsesive after just a couple of days of continous use. Taurine helps with this side effect to an extent.

I'm pretty sure I don't convert glutamate to GABA properly. I once tried a combo of zinc glycinate + manganese glycinate and I felt very weird, as If i had taken a drug.


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## rrhxiv

I started taking Manganese earlier today in the Solgar brand..I have not noticed any appreciable effects thus far. I had been taking 500 Mg of L Tyrosine and that worked for a week or so but then the effects faded and the anxiety returned..Ill take this for a few days and see where it goes


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## ju_pa

I started to take 5-10mg of manganese and have started to feel slightly depressed ( it could be because of losing great amounts of money with forex this week :lol) but I noticed difference in first two days before i got down mood. If manganese decreases copper then does it mean it chelates copper? I know copper chelation causes some mood changes.


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## miso1

After one month supplementing with 10 mg manganese daily, i can feel the effect now. Overall better mood, energy, lowered anxiety ... 
One month ... not immediately effect.


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## ju_pa

Ok I will give an update.

I'm taking 10mg of manganese daily and it's the first thing in the morning. Manganese without glutamine puts your mood down and doesn't give any real benefits. However, if you add glutamine, the changes are noticeable.


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## kokasit

Has anyone tried taking it with L-Tyrosine at the same time? 

tyrosine = dopamine production
manganese = dopamine reuptake inhibitor

I imagine the effects would be much stronger...


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## john kimble

Well im going to buy it. By Twinlab ill start with 10mg a day. I have a neurologist app soon so I will definately check these levels.


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## namespace11

I actually have this collecting dust in the cabinet. What the heck, I'll give it an honest shot.


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## john kimble

..........


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## gomenne

I haven oticed immediate effect when I took it before, it helped a lot with depression, and anxiety. But it didn't make me any more social :lol


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## Hiro

Hi! My experience so far with manganese.. I've been taking manganese citrate.

Taking 5mg/day for a week made me feel wonderful the first 4-5 days, but next it made me too jumpy and a little agressive. I've tried 5mg/day for about 7 days.

10mg/day made me sleepy and quite depressed. I've tried taking 10mg/day two times, for about 3 days each time.

15mg/day.. made my mood horribly depressed, I didn't even want to move. I've tried 15mg/day for about 4 days.

Now, I'll start taking 5mg once every two days.. I'll post my results in a week!

Needless to say, I find the 20-25mg (!!) amounts recommended here to be completely exorbitant...

*Edit: After a week it had no effect on my mood anymore... Damn tolerance. I'd still recommend to give it a try, though.*


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## Beggiatoa

Hope this study puts the Mn is toxic issue to rest. Manganese acts as an antioxidant and it protects dopaminergic neurons.



> *Manganese: a transition metal protects nigrostriatal neurons from oxidative stress in the iron-induced animal model of parkinsonism.*
> 
> Sziráki I, Mohanakumar KP, Rauhala P, Kim HG, Yeh KJ, Chiueh CC.
> *Source*
> 
> Unit on Neurodegeneration and Neuroprotection, Laboratory of Clinical Science, NIMH, NIH, Bethesda, MD 20892-1264, USA.
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> It has been suggested that transition metals such as iron and manganese produce oxidative injury to the dopaminergic nigrostriatal system. which may play a critical role in the pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease. Intranigral infusion of ferrous citrate (0 to 8.4 nmol, i.n.) acutely increased lipid peroxidation in the substantia ***** and dopamine turnover in the caudate nucleus. Subsequently, it caused a severe depletion of dopamine levels in the rat caudate nucleus. In contrast to iron's pro-oxidant effect, manganese (up to 30 nmol, i.n.) causes neither lipid peroxidation nor nigral injury/dopamine depletion. *Manganese (1.05 to 4.2 nmol, i.n.) dose-dependently protected nigral neurons from iron-induced oxidative injury and dopamine depletion. Manganese also suppressed acute increase in dopamine turnover and contralateral turning behaviour induced by iron. In brain homogenates manganese (0 to 10 microM) concentration-dependently inhibited propagation of lipid peroxidation caused by iron (0 to 5 microM). Without the contribution of manganese-superoxide dismutase manganese was still effective in sodium azide and/or heat-pretreated brain homogenates. *Surprisingly, iron but not manganese, catalysed the Fenton reaction or the conversion of hydrogen peroxide to hydroxyl radicals. *The results indicate that iron and manganese are two transition metals mediating opposite effects in the nigrostriatal system, as pro-oxidant and antioxidant, respectively.* In conclusion, intranigral infusion of iron, but not manganese, provides an animal model for studying the pathophysiological role of oxidant and oxidative stress in nigrostriatal degeneration and Parkinsonism. *The present results further suggest that the atypical antioxidative properties of manganese may protect substantia ***** compacta neurons from iron-induced oxidative stress.*


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## whereami

Its been 7 months since the last post, is the manganese still helping anyone, how bout u Beggiatoa?


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## Teerayoot

Tried it today 15mg,life my mood and i have more alert to go outside .

My energy also improve some ,um immediately effect ,

How long about Mn half life ,2 month ?

Just one dose every 2 month , oh i will take more dose tomorrow anyway .


Dopamine rush not strong as Piracetam,but it can life up depression mood from piracetam use ,um good .


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## DubnRun

Interesting I might have to check this out


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## Guardian4981

Hi,

I actually started manganese a couple days ago, I only take 5 mg for now.

I do notice about half an hour after taking it I feel more energy and motivation and anxiety goes down. 

I plan to continue at this dose and see how it goes.


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## matthewebbert

i have never tried it but after going with some positive response over here will surely give try for it..


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## jenningspony123

*Copper Zinc Manganese Iron*

Can I suggest to do some reading on Copper! From my understanding lots of people can people Copper toxic and Copper deficient at the same time. This is because we can't produce ceruloplasmin. To produce this I would look into Boron (this mineral has many benefits). To kick out the excess Copper (this can be a highly emotional exercise if not done correctly) you need to find a good high dose Zinc (i take upto 150 sometimes in a day, i let my body rest after one round). Lots of people are very sensitive to zinc and this means usually they are copper toxic....now the Zinc will displace the Copper but it wont carry it out the body and this is where you''ll notice the misery. I use MSM but I believe NAC or even Glutathione supplement (probably liposomal is best) and this should open the detox pathway for the copper to be eliminated from the body (you'll feel this happening). If your sensitive to Zinc you will gradually notice your tolerance to Zinc will increase. As far as manganese does my belief is that this is mainly a Iron antagonist. High dose manganese kicks out excess Iron (ferric) from the thymus and vitamin C (again liposomal is best) this should help convert toxic ferric iron into ferrous. Certainly gives you a kick of energy. This protocol is certainly not perfect but has certtainly helped me with energy. Other things to look into with Iron is nitric oxide, may add this to the protocol somehow...if anyone has any ideas???..I know that when ferric iron is high in the blood nitric oxide is low. Im trying to chelate the ferric iron out the blood. Hope this information helps and good luck.



Beggiatoa said:


> For any Liver problems, this product is very, very good:
> 
> http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Mega-Silymarin-with-Isosilybin-B-100-Capsules/13357?at=0
> 
> I also have liver problems, this product is freaking fantastic! Brought my liver enzymes in no time.


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## Lir23

Bro zinc can make you misserable. And about manganese I would like to try but I only found a version that contained cobalt and I don't know what
could happen but I haven't felt anything so that's why I don't know. I'm still tryng to fix what went wrong with me years ago am I would like
to know if somebody could give me some information.


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