# Online poker as a source of income...



## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

...maybe this thread won't get many responses because online poker is illegal in the "Land of the Free"...but surely, I can't be the only one who plays this beautiful, soul-crushing game?

And I'm especially curious as to why more people with social anxiety disorder don't use this game as a way to earn money.

You all know the game can be beat, right? 

I'm thinking of doing a year long experiment, of turning $100 into $10,000 on Poker Stars...starting February 1.

If this thread is against any SAS rules, just shut it down I guess.

I thought about doing this on a poker forum, but instead decided to do it here.

So...anyone else play?


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## CeilingStarer (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm too dumb to be good at poker or any probability/math stuff. I knew a Canadian guy on another forum who just did this fulltime. I was jealous of his lifestyle, and tried learning, but it's just not my strong point.


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

Yeah I play. Unless you are super intelligent it's doubtful you will turn $100 into $10k in 1 year if you're a beginner player. You're also wrong about it being illegal in the land of the free. Online poker is now regulated in Nevada, New Jersey, and Delaware, and more states will no doubt become regulated this year.



CeilingStarer said:


> I'm too dumb to be good at poker or any probability/math stuff. I knew a Canadian guy on another forum who just did this fulltime. I was jealous of his lifestyle, and tried learning, but it's just not my strong point.


It's actually pretty basic math that is needed like calculating pot/hand odds. But it's important you can do this stuff under pressure.


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

Poker isn't gambling if you're a good player. Becoming good/great takes a huge amount of effort though just like anything really. It's consistent income, especially if you're good at cash games. Scratch cards on the other hand is like one of the worst forms of gambling that exists like the lottery.


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

Oh Dae su said:


> Of course, scratch cards are a suckers game. I worked in retail I saw how much money people threw away on them. I'm just pointing out that I don't gamble unless I know my odds well.


If you know your odds well, you wouldn't buy scratch cards on the expectation that it will make money. Just because the last few purchases were losing ones, doesn't make your strategy a profitable one. Just like you have surely figured out for yourself.

Poker on the other hand isn't gambling. You're playing against other players if you're better then them you will make money in the long run. It's not a system like the lottery/scratch cards that is deigned to make insane profits off of the people gambling.


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## sad vlad (Nov 9, 2013)

Good luck at beating the game and making money out of it. 
Tell us how much you've invested in this and how much you've got out of it, in half a year or a year. That would be interesting to read.


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## missingno (Sep 29, 2011)

To soul destroying for me to play regularly now especially tourneys . I only rarely play online now and just play once a month at the casino. If someone wants to set up a game for people on this forum to play online then I'm down for that.

Kinda random though for any Aussie players I'm to lazy to look it up but how is withdrawing money from full tilt and pokerstars like. I might as well take a decent chunk of my bankroll offline to fund some of a holiday. Is is easy and how long to get the money?

Op which type are you going to be playing ring games, tourney or sit n go's?


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

changeme77 said:


> Yeah I play. Unless you are super intelligent it's doubtful you will turn $100 into $10k in 1 year if you're a beginner player. You're also wrong about it being illegal in the land of the free. Online poker is now regulated in Nevada, New Jersey, and Delaware, and more states will no doubt become regulated this year.


For a beginner, it would prove very difficult, yep. I'm not a beginner though, I've been playing(and winning) for close to 10 years now.

3 states out of 50 is still not good. I hope you're right that more states follow their lead though.



Oh Dae su said:


> I 100% agree with you man. I won't deny any of that, well apart from "poker isn't gambling" it's still gambling just as you said there's a skill element...As I said I was just saying I don't play unless I increase my odds! Same applied for me with poker. I'm not great at it so currently I wouldn't invest in it as an income...All I was saying.


Playing in a single poker game/tournament is gambling. If you're properly bankrolled for the games/tournaments you're playing, though, it goes from gambling to a form of investing.
For example, if I have $100 on my poker account, and that's all the money I can afford to play poker with...and I take that money and buy into a poker tournament that costs $100...that is pure gambling.
But if I have $10,000 and I play $100 games/tournaments over and over and over and over again...it's no longer gambling, as much as it is investing(provided you're actually good at the game, better than the majority of your opponents, that is).



sad vlad said:


> Good luck at beating the game and making money out of it.
> Tell us how much you've invested in this and how much you've got out of it, in half a year or a year. That would be interesting to read.


In just under 10 years, I've deposited around $5,000 and withdrawn close to $15,000. On average, I make around $1000-$2000 a year in profit. I've only had one losing year, which was 2012 where I ended up down $500 after 12 months.
My method is just to deposit $20-$50 each month and try to turn that into a lot more. Usually I lose that money but a few times a year I'll make a decent "score" so that, after 12 months, I'm up.



missingno said:


> To soul destroying for me to play regularly now especially tourneys . I only rarely play online now and just play once a month at the casino. If someone wants to set up a game for people on this forum to play online then I'm down for that.
> 
> Kinda random though for any Aussie players I'm to lazy to look it up but how is withdrawing money from full tilt and pokerstars like. I might as well take a decent chunk of my bankroll offline to fund some of a holiday. Is is easy and how long to get the money?
> 
> Op which type are you going to be playing ring games, tourney or sit n go's?


Tournaments are the worst way to attempt making consistent money. The bankroll swings are way too much to deal with. And it's so infuriating to play a $25 tournament, for example, with 1500 players, where you can play for 6-7 hours, finish in, say, 30th place, and make maybe $75...when you're 29 players away from a huge score. No thanks.

I dunno about Australia but here, deposits are instant(though it takes 48 hours for the money to be withdrawn from your bank account), and withdrawals are also 48 hours...so if I withdraw money on a Monday, it'll be in my bank account on Wednesday. I've never had any issues with withdrawing money from Poker Stars(or Full Tilt).

For my $100-to-$10000 experiment, I'll be playing sit and go's, $1.50 buy-in, 6 players, final 2 players get paid.
That seems like such a small amount, but that's bankroll management. 
When my bankroll gets over $250, I'll move up to the $3.50 sit and go's, and when it's over $500, I'll move up to the $7 sit and go's.

The goal is to work my way up to the $15 and $30 sit and go's.

I am unsure if I'd be able to keep playing sit and go's as a "job", but we'll see.

To get a break from the monotony of sit and go poker, I'll use my Frequent Player Points to buy my way into some Multi-Table tournaments on weekends.

This thread got more responses than I figured it would. Thanks everyone!


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## Omgblood (Jun 30, 2010)

Juana had trips


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## boas (Jun 9, 2013)

I've long fantasized about doing something like this, but I figure if it were plausible, I'd have heard about more people doing it. Plus, I really feel like I lack the nous to pull it off.


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## Lacking Serotonin (Nov 18, 2012)

It's a good way of debt too.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

boas said:


> I've long fantasized about doing something like this, but I figure if it were plausible, I'd have heard about more people doing it. Plus, I really feel like I lack the nous to pull it off.


It's plausible. It's not easy, that's why you don't hear about more people doing it. Earning an income with online poker is just as plausible as earning an income playing the stock market, day-trading, etc.



Lacking Serotonin said:


> It's a good way of debt too.


Debt? Spending money you can't afford to lose is a good way of getting into debt, regardless of what you're spending it on.

Going to the movies is a good way of going into debt too, if you can't afford to go to the movies...


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

missingno said:


> Kinda random though for any Aussie players I'm to lazy to look it up but how is withdrawing money from full tilt and pokerstars like.


Hits your bank account within days.


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

I spent my entire paycheck on scratch tickets, a couple decades ago, while waiting for the bus to get to my crappy dishwashing job. Sort of turned me off gambling for good.


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

So how did you go with this challenge?


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

So I take it you lost money trying lol.


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## jonsie150 (Apr 1, 2013)

True story: I have a cousin who's made a half-million from online poker. He's only 23.

HOWEVER, it sounds like you need a certain mentality to make that kind of money. And, to be honest, I wouldn't trade my life for my cousin's. He's locked up in his room all day. I don't even know if he has a friend that he hangs out with. Also, being in California, his money was frozen for a long time due to government crackdowns. The last I heard, he's been able to take out his money little by little.


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## pork (Sep 4, 2011)

I do full time advantage play.

I'd never play online poker or live poker for income. There are far more lucrative opportunities with proven mathematical expectations. If you want to do something that requires little interaction; try video poker. If your freeplay offers exceed the house edge on the machine you're playing, you're making a profit guaranteed in the long run. There are casinos that offer machines positive off the top if you're willing to play regularly for $10-$20 an hour.


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

pork said:


> I do full time advantage play.
> 
> I'd never play online poker or live poker for income. There are far more lucrative opportunities with proven mathematical expectations. If you want to do something that requires little interaction; try video poker. If your freeplay offers exceed the house edge on the machine you're playing, you're making a profit guaranteed in the long run. There are casinos that offer machines positive off the top if you're willing to play regularly for $10-$20 an hour.


How many bonuses apply to video poker though? Most apply to slots play only.


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## pork (Sep 4, 2011)

changeme77 said:


> How many bonuses apply to video poker though? Most apply to slots play only.


By "bonuses" do you mean point multipliers? They apply to video poker. If the casino doesn't offer them then it's probably not a good place to play.


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## changeme77 (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm not even sure what a "multiplier" is. I mean your typical casino bonus, where you get free money to play certain games, usually for slots.


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## OutsideR1 (Mar 13, 2014)

Ive done it professionally for 2-3 years. I was doing quite well, had built my bankroll up playing $.50/$1 (that's $100 buy in at a table, 4-6 tables at once) and was moving up to the $1/$2 stakes when poker became illegal in america and half of my bankroll was stolen by the us government, even though I wasnt in america at the time but one of the websites i played at was. It was devastating and it has never been the same. I do feel that perhaps it was for the best, as I enrolled back in university and only have 1.5 years left before I have a degree.

Overall, I think that poker is just too stressful to do full time for many years. When you start, you think that you will have this awesome lifestyle, grind for 3 hours a day and make $100k+ a year easily. But nothing can prepare you for downswings, which are brutal. When you are consistently losing for a month or even longer and are thousands in the red, you start to question your sanity. Some people are more cut out for it then others. It has also gotten harder and harder over the years to make money, as more and more people are educating themselves.

It has been an adventure though. I once made $1000+ in 1 day, which would be very hard to do in a "real" job. I also remember putting down $500 on a playoff basketball game once, "just because". So, some positives, but mostly stress as you think you "should" win a pot because you are a 65% favorite, only for some fish to luck out on the river.

EDIT: I just remembered that I got nostalgic a few months ago and saw that 888 gave you a free $12 to play with, no deposit needed. I thought, what the hell, so I made an account. I ran it up to $100 in a few days and just withdrew it lol. Not much, but felt good that I still got some skills.


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## duckie (Apr 30, 2012)

i've played this game seems like forever. online poker was my only source of income before black friday. i wasn't making much but my expenses were very low. i was totally expecting 2011 to be my break-thru year finally making more playing poker than i would have with a real job but those dreams were crushed. live poker is my only income now.

while i agree with you that it is a great way to make money but i don't think it's easy. (it's easy once you have the skills obviously) i guess if you had proper guidance so you could learn the game at warp speed then maybe. but if you just try to learn the game on your own it will take years before you can comfortably support yourself from poker.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

changeme77 said:


> So how did you go with this challenge?
> I take it you lost money trying lol.


You're temp banned, but I'm replying anyway.

The challenge didn't even start :b so I didn't lose anything. On the contrary, one night my friend was here playing poker on his own. It was late and I was tired so I went to sleep while he was still playing, and he'd leave when he was out of the tournament. Well, he won it, for $1000, and woke me up to tell me. We celebrated a little bit (may have been some illegal drugs involved), and he sent me $16.50 to buy in to "The Big $16.50"...2000+ players registered and I actually ended up winning it for $4850 USD, which came to $5300 CAD. I had to split that with my friend, but it was fun anyway.
I had real-world things that required most of that money(owed parents money, and was happy to give it to them).



OutsideR1 said:


> Ive done it professionally for 2-3 years. I was doing quite well, had built my bankroll up playing $.50/$1 (that's $100 buy in at a table, 4-6 tables at once) and was moving up to the $1/$2 stakes when poker became illegal in america and half of my bankroll was stolen by the us government, even though I wasnt in america at the time but one of the websites i played at was. It was devastating and it has never been the same. I do feel that perhaps it was for the best, as I enrolled back in university and only have 1.5 years left before I have a degree.
> 
> Overall, I think that poker is just too stressful to do full time for many years. When you start, you think that you will have this awesome lifestyle, grind for 3 hours a day and make $100k+ a year easily. But nothing can prepare you for downswings, which are brutal. When you are consistently losing for a month or even longer and are thousands in the red, you start to question your sanity. Some people are more cut out for it then others. It has also gotten harder and harder over the years to make money, as more and more people are educating themselves.
> 
> ...


What was your bankroll when you were playing 4-6 tables of 100NL? Must have been a lot. Damn. Didn't all that money stuff get settled? I know of plenty of American players who (recently) received their money that was on Full Tilt and the like.


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## pork (Sep 4, 2011)

changeme77 said:


> I'm not even sure what a "multiplier" is. I mean your typical casino bonus, where you get free money to play certain games, usually for slots.


It's called "freeplay" and most video poker machines accept it (save for a few "optimal" machines).

If your theoretical loss on a video poker machine is $20 (for example) and the casino sends you $20 a week in freeplay; you're netting ~$80 a month profit. These offers generally go up the more coin in you play.


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## ace123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I've always had an intrest in poker , I hoped I could make a living from it and be free from regular 9-5 jobs but the games are tough nowadays, its hard to make even minimum wage but definately do-able. My probem has always been that I have a self destruct button that sooner or later seems to catch up with me.. You need alot of disipline and not having your life in order can make that difficult. You can play well for a month and one day you have bad run at a vunerable moment and suddenly you've lost your head and when that happens its all so easy to undo hours and hours of work. So yeah as someone whos invested alot of time into poker proceed with caution if the money is too valuable and your under pressure it be hard not to crack at some point.


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## duckie (Apr 30, 2012)

ace123 said:


> I've always had an intrest in poker , I hoped I could make a living from it and be free from regular 9-5 jobs but the games are tough nowadays, its hard to make even minimum wage but definately do-able. My probem has always been that I have a self destruct button that sooner or later seems to catch up with me.. You need alot of disipline and not having your life in order can make that difficult. You can play well for a month and one day you have bad run at a vunerable moment and suddenly you've lost your head and when that happens its all so easy to undo hours and hours of work. So yeah as someone whos invested alot of time into poker proceed with caution if the money is too valuable and your under pressure it be hard not to crack at some point.


if you want it bad enough you can make it happen. i use to have a serious gambling problem playing all the -EV house games. then i discovered poker and spent the next 15 years of my life studying, playing and trying to stay away from the house games. online poker was a perfect fit for me, sites like pokerstars didn't offer blackjack or any other pit games. easy to stay away from things that aren't offered. 

only bad thing is online poker is extremely tough. i gradually got better and made more money over the years but still less than a minimum wage job. the last few months i played online i thought i finally had the small stake sng's figured out. was averaging $9/hr over those months and was on track to have my best year yet. then black friday killed my dreams.

started playing live, which is actually easier but requires different strategy to be successful. the worst part was my tendency to get pulled into the pit games. i rarely tilt at the poker table, nope, i just get up tilted and take my money to the blackjack tables. this is a recipe for disaster.

that was then... now i've worked through my compulsion to play the pit games. i still have to give myself some private pep talks once in awhile but i haven't played the -EV games in a long time. it took me 15 years to get to this point. currently averaging $28/hr playing $1/$2 with plans to move up to $2/$5 sometime this year.


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## hulkamaniak (Mar 21, 2008)

I put $10 on Pokerstars like 8 years ago when I was quite the beginner, did not know anything about playing position so if I got Q,10 in first position at a 9 seater I'd always play it no matter what not really understanding how position really impacts a hand. Also had no idea about pot odds, if I had a flush draw I'd basically never fold no matter what the raise since I had no understanding of the odds. Got my $10 to $2000 in a few months. Fast forward 8 years - now that I understand the game and have a lot more experience . . . I can barely make a cent off the game.


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## Omgblood (Jun 30, 2010)

i wont million


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