# As an average looking guy, how do you hook up with a beautiful girl?



## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Just curious. Is it possible in real life or does it only happen on-screen?

What do you have to bring to the table to even remotely have a chance?


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

doesnt work. you have what youre born with. If youre a 5 trying to get with a 7 or 8 good luck. :duck


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## 266x (Jun 30, 2011)

depends on the girl you're talking to. Some are shallow, some aren't. Don't just shoot for the hot girls, but don't be afraid to talk to them either.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Not that I'm looking for a gf or plan to have any such criteria

I'm just wondering as I used to be 'afraid' of pretty girls, so to speak...to me they were untouchable.


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## 266x (Jun 30, 2011)

yeah talk to her friends also.. sometimes if you kind of hint to them that you have a bit of a liking for their pretty friend, they mght introduce you and stuff haha


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## OpiodArmor (Jun 15, 2011)

Sure you can get with em, assuming your cool / confident / rich. Or if she has some mental issues with her looks / daddy issues / etc etc etc. 

Trust me a average looking dude can get with any women alive if he plays his cards right; just gotta be good at what you do. Looks are not nearly the most important thing as long as your not hideous and meet certian standards. (Average is fine.)


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

If you're looking to get with someone out of your league, your only real strong shot is to have a great personality for that individual.


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## leave me alone (Apr 1, 2011)

Sure it is, if you have great social and communication skills.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

a really big fishhook


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

You don't. That's the answer.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

joinmartin, are you joking?

Hot girls gravitate towards hot guys. That's just the way the world works. 

If you are average or ugly looking, and you want a hot girlfriend, you need to be rich.


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## Johnny_Genome (Nov 11, 2003)

I think sometimes it's good to focus on the majority and not the anomalies. If you look at all the couples you know, you are likely to find that most are around the same attractiveness. Sure there's always couples like the Kucinichs, but that's the exception not the rule.

I have a couple of male friends, who have struggled for years with dating, being 'friend zoned', and general frustrations with finding companionship. What they have in common is, they are always pursuing women who, in my opinion, trump them in the attractiveness department. I can see these same women, appreciate their beauty for a moment, but keep one foot firmly planted in reality. Until they've expanded their view of attractiveness to include a wider variety of women, they are likely to remain single, lonely and eventually bitter.


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## crimsoncora (Mar 29, 2011)

What do you mean hookup? Like ask her out?

If you mean ask out, then go ask her. Thats it


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## Wirt (Jan 16, 2009)




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## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

i know this one guy who is no more than a 6 and he is engaged to a women who is a least a 9 who is taller than him and he isnt even rich. They even have a daughter

Have faith guys!!!!!


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

Don't get hung up on looks. They rarely last. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high? People marrying for looks and then find out they can't stand each other after a few years. 

My mother was a beautiful woman. Dad was 6'4 and 240 lbs when they got married. Their personalities complimented each other. They had been married 42 years when Dad passed away.


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## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

Be personable. You know, a people person. Talk about things intelligently and ask nice questions. Smash your head against a rock.


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## hyg (Jun 24, 2011)

Follow your own sig as advice :teeth


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

Amocholes said:


> Don't get hung up on looks. They rarely last. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high? People marrying for looks and then find out they can't stand each other after a few years.
> 
> My mother was a beautiful woman. Dad was 6'4 and 240 lbs when they got married. Their personalities complimented each other. They had been married 42 years when Dad passed away.


Sorry about your loss Amo. :heart
I must say 42 years is amazing relationship. I definitely agree with what you say. "Beauty fades, dumb is forever." Lol


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

What I like to do is to sit at home and hope the "laws of nature" somehow change between this moment and before I get old and die. It's not working too well, but I don't know what else to do.
I think, as an average looking guy, you just have to try...hard. You have to really put yourself out there, develop a social circle...you have to be places that "beautiful" girls(or guys) might be. And if you're not on her "level" physically, you have to find other reasons to make them want to be around you. Make her laugh or something. But mostly, you have to try with just about every girl you want to approach, it's just the odds...the more attempts you make, the better your chances at finding someone who can look beyond someones physical appearance.

And, I'm assuming by "hook up" you mean a relationship and not just sex.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Work on having social status and be better than all of the guys that are competing for hot girls. If an attractive guy is funny be funnier, if he's rich be richer, if he's cool be cooler, if he has an extroverted life style have one too, etc. It is not hard to figure out what women like you just have to observe what attracts them. If you lack looks than compensate by being even better in the other qualities she likes. It is not easy, but it is possible if you have the determination to improve yourself. Thinking that just personality and confidence are key is just an excuse to be lazy and not work on having social status, or work hard to improve on qualities that make you attractive.


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## fastfoodlooser (Sep 8, 2009)

Take her off the pedestal.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

shynesshellasucks said:


> Work on having social status and be better than all of the guys that are competing for hot girls. If an attractive guy is funny be funnier, if he's rich be richer, if he's cool be cooler, if he has an extroverted life style have one too, etc. It is not hard to figure out what women like you just have to observe what attracts them. If you lack looks than compensate by being even better in the other qualities she likes. It is not easy, but it is possible if you have the determination to improve yourself. Thinking that just personality and confidence are key is just an excuse to be lazy and not work on having social status, or work hard to improve on qualities that make you attractive.


Approval seeking and neediness will not attract her. Neither will seeking to become someone else you're not or think you should be. But then again, you and others on here will persist on the whole "it's the external things that attract her" belief system and never find what you're looking for in life because your belief system is a negative hiding to nowhere. Trust me, I've been on that hiding and had to rescue my self esteem.

Improve yourself? How do you know you're not good enough as you are? the equation works the other way round and the guy who is attractive simply by being himself gets the social status because people hang around him for who he is not what he gives or what he does. But no, focus on the external stuff and drive yourself into constant anxiety and bad feelings.

I don't like being so flippant about it but it's important to rally the point home: you're good enough and attractive enough as you are. Any attempt to seek approval by trying to become someone you think you should be will mess with your self esteem and confidence and you won't get anywhere. She wants a man not some clone from a teen movie or TV show. If you can't be proud, confident and comfortable about who you are then asking her to be is a bit odd. She wants to see you not who you think you should be or ought to be to be attractive.

All this concentration on improving yourself presupposes you're not good enough as you are. No wonder anxiety and self esteem and low self confidence are an issue. You never give yourself any credit.

People don't only date within their own attractiveness range. Attractive is relative, subjective and vulnerable to many, many things.

Focus on the external and you will end up, most likely, in the company of others who do the same and judge you on the same things. Not great for a relationship or even for sex.

A beautiful woman is beautiful to you and not necessarily to all mankind. It is not written down in stone by some great authority because this is not some ordered world.

Seriously, do not sit in a relationship with the negative thought patterns that tell you you're not good enough for this or that. What they say is not the truth. If you do sit with them and listen to them you end up with the same things in your head that I've had and boy oh boy do you not want to meet them.

Steps to getting a "beautiful woman":

1) Be yourself. Not bad advice at all. You just think it is because you think being yourself means being crap or not good enough. It doesn't. It means being a really great person with a lot to offer the world. No teen movie clones, no idiotic attempts to beg for her through approval seeking or attempts to get social status. Be comfortable and confident in your own skin as you. She's going to meet the real you soon enough so best to be it from the start.

2) Take her off the pedestal. She farts, she goes to the loo and occasionally there's a massive bit of snot hanging from her nose when she sneezes. She could also be a pretty bad person behind the makeup. Who knows. But don't get dazzled by how good she looks. Get dazzled by how good she actually is.

3) Stand up for yourself in a confident, respectful manner and go talk to her.


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## Mr Blues (Apr 1, 2011)

I consider myself average looking, yet the girl who has recently shown interest in me would be considered attractive.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> Approval seeking and neediness will not attract her. Neither will seeking to become someone else you're not or think you should be. But then again, you and others on here will persist on the whole "it's the external things that attract her" belief system and never find what you're looking for in life because your belief system is a negative hiding to nowhere. Trust me, I've been on that hiding and had to rescue my self esteem.


This is were the disagreement comes. You think getting attractive girls is all a numbers game but never consider the fact that there are many guys that try this and get rejected all the time, sometimes even harshly. Most of them even settle in the end because they can't hook up with the women they want.



> Improve yourself? How do you know you're not good enough as you are? the equation works the other way round and the guy who is attractive simply by being himself gets the social status because people hang around him for who he is not what he gives or what he does. But no, focus on the external stuff and drive yourself into constant anxiety and bad feelings.


I disagree with this too. If you are attractive and have social skills, and maybe even money, being yourself works like a charm. It's like telling a student that studies math a lot to take a math test and to be himself while doing it, that works of course. The same wouldn't apply to a student that hates and never studies math.



> I don't like being so flippant about it but it's important to rally the point home: you're good enough and attractive enough as you are. Any attempt to seek approval by trying to become someone you think you should be will mess with your self esteem and confidence and you won't get anywhere.


I've had self-esteem and confidence issues long before I came to the conclusion that external factors attract women. And nope, I don't think I'm good enough for the women I'm interested in. All of the girls that have interested me have dated guys that fit in more with the standard of beauty than I do. These same guys also have a social life, social status and other things I'm lacking.



> She wants a man not some clone from a teen movie or TV show.


I actually think women would love to hook up with the attractive guys they see in TV.



> If you can't be proud, confident and comfortable about who you are then asking her to be is a bit odd. She wants to see you not who you think you should be or ought to be to be attractive.


How do you know this? Maybe the girls in UK are less shallow than ones in America; I don't really blame the girls though, it's normal behavior because I'm kinda shallow myself.



> All this concentration on improving yourself presupposes you're not good enough as you are. No wonder anxiety and self esteem and low self confidence are an issue. You never give yourself any credit.


As I've already said, I had low self confidence and self-esteem long before.



> People don't only date within their own attractiveness range. Attractive is relative, subjective and vulnerable to many, many things.
> 
> Focus on the external and you will end up, most likely, in the company of others who do the same and judge you on the same things. Not great for a relationship or even for sex.
> 
> ...


Problem is you really can't define "beautiful" women because you think everyone has the same attractive level because beauty, in your world, is entirely subjective. Most people in here are objective and can tell who is a hot person and who is not. Many guys have been rejected a bunch of times by "being themselves" and have not found a woman. What is the problem then? Are they not being themselves enough?


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## josh23 (Nov 26, 2010)

You treat them with respect, and be a better than average human being.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

aye I dont even know what confidence is anymore..:um


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## 266x (Jun 30, 2011)

Don't put women on a pedestal.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

fastfoodlooser said:


> Take her off the pedestal.





joinmartin said:


> 2) Take her off the pedestal. She farts, she goes to the loo and occasionally there's a massive bit of snot hanging from her nose when she sneezes. She could also be a pretty bad person behind the makeup. Who knows. But don't get dazzled by how good she looks. Get dazzled by how good she actually is.
> 
> 3) Stand up for yourself in a confident, respectful manner and go talk to her.





266x said:


> Don't put women on a pedestal.


True words, true words.

As I said I used to think of pretty girls as being untouchable until I learned they can be as insecure as the next girl.


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## lanzman (Jun 14, 2004)

if you're average, why not hook up with someone average? the problem with beautiful women is they're going to be hit on constantly by other men. are you going to have the confidence to stand up to them or the tolerance to put up with it?


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## jamesd (Feb 17, 2011)

I see ugly guys with hot chicks all the time. I am assuming they are either rich or have the world's best personalities.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

jamesd said:


> I see ugly guys with hot chicks all the time. I am assuming they are either rich or have the world's best personalities.


 I have yet to see a HB7-10 with an ugly guy. Could be true for whatever reason but trying to hook up with them is a numbers game. good luck.


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## cmed (Oct 17, 2009)

Amazon doesn't have How To Hook Up With A Beautiful Girl As An Average Looking Guy For Dummies in stock?


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

Either you have to have money, looks or intelligence or just be extremely lucky. Anyway I don't know what's the obsession with being with a very beautiful girl. Most of us will settle for someone ok looking that we get along with and are happy with that.


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## nemesis1 (Dec 21, 2009)

I think for a lot of guys, having an attractive partner is a measure of success......although as others have said too i think having an attractive girlfriend would be difficult for a guy with SA, you would be under constant threat from alpha males trying to take her from you, how would you deal with that?


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> Interesting. In the paragraph from my post you've quoted I don't mention anything about the numbers game. Yes, guys get rejected. Yes, girls get rejected. Basic probability will tell you that increasing the number of people you speak to may well improve the chances of things working out with someone.


Yes but what I was getting at is that sometimes "being yourself" doesn't work because some guys get rejected all of the time.



> But what I spoke about was the whole neediness thing that comes from thinking you have to be someone you're not in order to get with women. Personally, if a guy hates himself so much as to shun his real self and instead tries to sketch a false picture of some cool dude off the films because he thinks this and only this will attract women...well...I don't know how a guy who does that looks in the mirror never mind approaches women.


You are exaggerating, of course a guy doesn't need to be like the guys from the movies since very few people are at that level. What needs to be done is become more attractive by improving looks, becoming more social, gaining more social status, etc. All of these things most women find attractive. The more of these qualities you possess the better off you are. There is nothing needy about self-improvement and doing stuff like getting nice looking clothes, going to the gym to look better, getting rid of acne, getting a career so money isn't tight etc. A lot of people do stuff in order to look better for the opposite sex it is not neediness at all, just ask girls about their make up and the clothes they wear.

Also realize that the hottest women in the world, like supermodels, don't date nobodies. The supermodels date soccer players, musicians, the rich, and other celebrities, they don't date guys that are just confident or the ones that are just "being themselves".



> Erm....the student who never studies maths probably ought to actually study it before taking the test. In other words, your analogy doesn't make any sense.


Yes it does because "being yourself" only works if you are good at something. Of course the student that sucks at math would have to study because by just "being himself" he would fail miserably. He needs to improve at math, otherwise he is doomed. If you tell Brad Pitt to be himself he will have success because he has looks, social status, and is desired by a bunch of women.



> Whether you're "attractive" or not is not determined by some external, great authority that goes round and stamps "attractive" on your head. It's in your gift by being yourself.


This doesn't make any sense. This gives me the impression that you are overly optimistic. Look in the "celebrity crushes" thread in the entertainment forum, and tell me that all of those desired celebrities are desired because they are just being themselves and not because of external factors like looks.



> I totally disagree with this. It doesn't make any sense at all.
> Why the focus on external things like social skills and money? You think your security and well being lies in having and acquiring those things? Pretty much a lot of studies to suggest that's not a good road to go down.


Link? And I think being well financially off makes me feel much better than always being tight in money. This also goes for having social skills and not saying stuff that might make me look stupid.



> But external factors are not what attracts women. That's the whole point.


Tell all that to all of the celebrities like soccer players, movie stars, etc. All of which can each sleep with more women than what the guys in this forum can combined. If not, tell all of the male celebrities to file for divorces because they have married shallow women who only look into external factors.



> You don't think you're good enough as you are so you seek to become what you think you have to become in order to get with the girls you want to get with. And this is neediness. You're basically shouting at the girls: "look at me! I have become this guy I think you automatically like! Please approve of me!"


Wouldn't saying "I'm being myself, can you girls date me now please?" be the same? We are talking about hot girls, most of which focus on external factors.



> You can't get confidence and or self esteem from who you are right now because you've dismissed yourself. What kind of alpha male does that to himself? If you won't believe me and other heart centred people, go look at the naturals with women and those guys you think you have to be like. Are they apologising for who they are? Are they constantly seeking the approval of others because they can't generate it for themselves?


I only hear of these type of guys from PUAs but I have never seen them in person. The attractive women that I see only date guys at their level of attractiveness.



> Did those guys with their social lives get born popular or did they get some confidence in themselves and go out and meet people?


Confidence comes from external factors.



> Go test this out then. Go up to a girl and start pretending to be some random guy off a TV show or film and see how long she stays in the conversation with you.


I agree pretending doesn't work. What does work is change, when you change it's no longer pretending.



> If you yourself are shallow than that is what you will end up resonating with so you may well get the few girls in this universe who actually are shallow. Indeed, you're likely to attract the few people in this world who are genuinely shallow because that's your frame of reference. If that's what you want, fine. If not and you want a deeper connection with someone, you're going to have to be open to that yourself.


Everybody is shallow to an extent. If not, everybody would be dating people who are unattractive and the most physically undesirable.



> Most people in here are objective? I love the people here but you're telling me people who imagine threats in multiple social situations are somehow always operating from an objective perspective? I think not.
> 
> Who is and who is not a hot person is not determined by some external government mission thing. People argue, disagree and even debate who is and who is not attractive. If beauty were objectively determined how do those arguments, debates and disagreements happen?
> 
> It's not in my world where beauty is subjective. It's in the real world.


But there is a majorities' vote. For example if you put a poll between Megan Fox, and Rosie O'donnell, Fox will win by about 99.9% of the heterosexual male population.



> How do you know those guys who got rejected were being themselves? Are you assuming that if they'd dressed up like some ridiculous douche bag guy they'd instantly have had no problems because obviously she's shallow enough that once you dress right...? Erm...nope.


What is your definition of 'being yourself"? For me it means not pretending to be someone else and not doing some PUA-like routine crap. Most guys are "being themselves" actually.

You don't have to dress up like a douche bag, you just have to dress nice.



> PUAs get rejected. Male models get rejected and I've seen both happen with my own eyes. There's no magic pill. You're not going to know who you're going to meet and what's going on with them. Indeed, if you operate from the shallow viewpoint of the world then every rejection has to be about the guy because the guy's just assumed the girl can't possibly be deep enough or enough of a person to have her own stuff going on, her own issues, her own problems, her own wants, her own desires.


Everyone gets rejected but the question is how often? If a guy gets rejected all of the time then "being himself" is not enough and has to do something to change and improve attractiveness so that way "being himself" actually works.



> If you are being yourself, you're still going to get rejected. I can't stop that and neither can anyone else. But at least she's rejecting the real you not some cardboard cut out from some film, TV show or idea of how you should be as a guy. Some girls are not going to be into you. Sometimes you can do something about that and sometimes you can't. But what you see a lot of is guys reacting to this and using it to confirm all the negative stuff they already believe about themselves and discouraging themselves from approaching again.


Of course a girl doesn't like guys that pretend. But when you actually change the behavior is natural. Changing is not the same thing as pretending. When a guy gets rejected all of the time he will never be confident so a change has to occur.



> Also worth noting that when a girl approaches you or you approach a girl, she is not a mind reader. She can't automatically see your social life, your social status, how much money you have etc.


She can see that by the car you drive, the clothes you wear, the friends you hang around with, etc. When you have social status and social skills you will automatically become confident too, unless something like looks are way below average.


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## Revenwyn (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm an ugly girl and I have a hot husband. Now tell me which is harder. Girls will generally go for personality before looks.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

The way dating is set up nowadays, it's similar to a 2:1 ratio of men to women. It explains why you see average-looking men with unattractive, overweight women. There are about the same number of males to females in the world, but in the USA when you are trying to get a date, the ratio tilts to about 2.2:1 (men:women) or so. There is about the same number of men:women here in the USA, but the dating biological roles, feminism and society has contributed to the big tilt in women's favor, by far.

The reason it is tilted is because women have the power of choice and not having to do the aggressive social work, and the men are desperate and making the first move the majority of the time. You know the whole dating gender role thing.

What's happening in the USA is you have women that date multiple guys, and these guys are the alpha males in most cases. So, you have pretty much all of the women dating select alpha men, and the beta males are left with little to no dating life. 

Have you ever noticed how you always hear almost all women talking about her boyfriend or husband? Yeah, that's because women are getting in and out of relationships at a higher rate than men are. 

What this all boils down to is if you are an average-looking guy, getting an attractive woman will be nearly impossible unless you are rich, socially confident and have a bunch of friends. The attractive women are controlled by the top tier of alpha males, usually good-looking alphas with money and social status. Since these women can have the best of the best, they won't lower themselves to the average joe with average looks, an average wallet and an average life.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Have you considered not putting so much emphasis on physical appearance, and focusing more on the other qualities women have to offer? Such as personality, heart, mind, etc?


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

women are bad at choosing their partners so whoever is looking to get a hot babe youre lucky sob for getting one..:duck


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

I'm not being superficial or anything. Of course the most important thing is if I can get along with the person.

Hey the last girl I fell in love with had minor burn marks on one side of her face from a house fire when she was younger...but she was the most beautiful girl in the school because of her very friendly personality.

Just wanted the opinions


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## Revenwyn (Apr 11, 2011)

theseshackles said:


> I'm not being superficial or anything. Of course the most important thing is if I can get along with the person.
> 
> Hey the last girl I fell in love with had minor burn marks on one side of her face from a house fire when she was younger...but she was the most beautiful girl in the school because of her very friendly personality.
> 
> Just wanted the opinions


And such a girl could have very easily developed SA because of that.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Revenwyn said:


> And such a girl could have very easily developed SA because of that.


She is self-conscious about it in certain environments...like once I asked her to follow me to get lunch but she declined; I guess she didn't want to go on the road and risk receiving any 'comments'...

but she's an extrovert and is ALWAYS engaging in conversation so I'm sure she doesn't and never will have SA.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

^^Clearly you haven't read through the thread and are a little misguided in some of your observations, and as I am the OP I will assume that is directed towards me including others.

I already explained myself at the beginning of the thread that physical attractiveness is in no way a criteria in choosing who I date. I will not go over this a fourth time.

How is it being shallow if one wants his mate to be attractive? What I'm getting from a lot of these responses is that if a guy goes after a beautiful girl he's automatically shallow/superficial and only cares about looks.

Are there not beautiful people who have good and admirable qualities? Ever stop to think that those qualities play a big role in the level of interest in the first place? I don't know what it is but many people need to stop thinking that being beautiful = being shallow.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Ok that's fine. I just needed to be clear on where I stand with this.


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## lanzman (Jun 14, 2004)

IcemanKilmer said:


> Since these women can have the best of the best, they won't lower themselves to the average joe with average looks, an average wallet and an average life.


And why should she? Attractiveness is a bargaining chip and has some value in our society. I'm sure if you were a female in the same position you'd likely do the same.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

needusername said:


> I usually never comment on posts like these because they are complete nonsense, but today, oh well, here goes:
> I think a lot of you men need to ****ing stop feeling so sorry for yourself about not getting the hot and attractive women. You call them shallow for not wanting to be with you because you are average looking. How about YOU stop being so shallow. How about dating average looking women?? There are tons of average looking single women all over the place but I bet you only notice the attractive ones.
> 
> Also, most places there are more single women than men. I don't know where IcemanKilmer got that statistic about a 2:1 of men to women. False.


Your theory doesn't make sense. Why would I ever date a woman I'm not physically attracted to? I'm attracted to women I think are attractive, as is everyone else.

Why should I deprive myself of going for attractive women and instead go for women I'm not attracted to (average-looking women)? Isn't the whole point of dating to be _attracted _to your partner? Part of love is physical attraction, whether you like it or not.

According to your theory, I should date a woman that I don't want to have sex with. No thanks.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

lanzman said:


> And why should she? Attractiveness is a bargaining chip and has some value in our society. I'm sure if you were a female in the same position you'd likely do the same.


Lol, when did I say she shouldn't do what she's doing. She should. You would, and so would I.


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## MoniqueS (Feb 21, 2011)

I think it can happen. As long as the person is still attracted to you and you get along really well in every other way. Looks by itself are useless.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Out of all the things I've figured out about myself (a lot), I struggle with the "physical looks level" thing. I really cannot come to grasp with what I'm capable of, even though I've been rejected a lot, and it eats at me. Questions I cannot answer no matter how hard I try EAT at me. I feel like somewhere I should know specifically, but it's one of those damn things everyone has an opinion on and it is ridiculous to answer.

When you get rejected and you can't ever know for sure if it is mainly because a physical trait or some other thing and your confidence drops a little you tend to want to find the answer, but the answer is oblivious within an arm's distance. It is so frustrating!

To answer the OP's question if I have not already, it can happen, but so can other rare events. The problem is, I cannot for the life of me tell you how "rare" such an instance is. I don't think there is a specific answer even though I personally believe physical appearance has an attractable standard. Someone here pointed out to me that beauty and attraction are two separate things. I guess a more logical question to ask yourself is this: which is more important to you? The same question applies to the women you find physically attractive as well. I have a nagging reasoning in my head that is almost certain that there is a physical attraction standard most people have as a species, BUT looks can get you a lot of attention and excite the horny but it won't keep you in their hearts if your personality sucks. The answer is freakin' impossible to answer for me... I've tried...and tried... and then I just give up and try in real life... and the cycle repeats itself again and again lol...

So yeah, you can do it, but I really don't know how rare it is, or rather, how subjective it is. I cannot answer that question with certainty and I will be in awe of anyone who can do that. Saying it is subjective is save to say, but maybe it's the only answer? I have a very hard time finding physical attraction subjective in SOME instances. But w/e.... I'll never know the answer...frustrating...

EDIT: To hell with it... I'm going to gather some research of polls and studies and find out soon how subjective physical attraction is! muahaha


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## jamesd (Feb 17, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> I have yet to see a HB7-10 with an ugly guy. Could be true for whatever reason but trying to hook up with them is a numbers game. good luck.


Actually I have no trouble getting laid. Not to sound arrogant. It's all about relating to others and making them feel comfortable. My height and looks don't hurt either.


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## flip (Apr 29, 2011)

I've seen plenty of beautiful women with ugly guys, just browse facebook.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

I've had a lot of fun reading the raving drivel about "attractive women" being controlled by some imagined group of alpha males at the top tier of society and other TFL inspired crap. 

Nice to see the angry, sexist drivel of "women must be attracted to money" rearing its ugly head again. Pretty much most women do not care whether you're rich or not and if you're looking for deep connections with women it might be an idea to drop the sexism, drop the shallowness and focus on the fact that she is a person with a name and not a HB10. 

It's also an idea to stop transferring your own insecurities about yourself onto women. Women do not automatically see you in the negative way you see yourself. Unless you become so needy and approval seeking orientated that you assume they only like external things and spend all your time trying to get those external things and shouting: "please approve of me. Look, I've got money now!"

Stop working in the realms of labels and get back to who you are and who she is. Calibrate to her and drop the neediness thing and you've got as much chance as anyone else has. 

If you keep things on a shallow level then that is all you're going to get with anyone, regardless of whether they are "beautiful" or not.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

*


joinmartin said:



Pretty much most women do not care whether you're rich or not

Click to expand...

*


joinmartin said:


> I'm not saying you have to be rich. I'm saying most women want you to at least make an average salary. Anything below average salary and many women are immediately turned off of the guy.
> 
> Financial status doesn't =rich. Financial status=at least around average money and direction (future of having a decent bank account).
> 
> ...


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## raisingirl (Jul 9, 2011)

In my experience, the average looking guys who are only interested in beautiful girls tend to have under-developed, or unattractive personalities, and are very obvious in the way they either ignore or disrespect women who don't fit their high standards. It can show a lot of immaturity or an unhealthy mindset, if an "average" guy behaves as though he's entitled to attention and acceptance from a beautiful girl on the one hand, and dismisses women who are average like him as just not good enough on the other.


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## loquaciousintrovert (May 23, 2011)

How about a woman who makes you happy, regardless of what she looks like? :roll


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

loquaciousintrovert said:


> How about a woman who makes you happy, regardless of what she looks like? :roll


Being sexually attracted to a woman is a part of love. To tell someone they should search for a woman that they don't want to have sex with is depriving that person of love.


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## loquaciousintrovert (May 23, 2011)

IcemanKilmer said:


> *Being sexually attracted to a woman is a part of love. *To tell someone they should search for a woman that they don't want to have sex with is depriving that person of love.


No, it's not. Love has only one part--itself.

Obviously there has to be some physical attraction, but it seems like the OP is looking for a conventionally beautiful woman, and that's kind of shallow.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

loquaciousintrovert said:


> No, it's not. Love has only one part--itself.
> 
> Obviously there has to be some physical attraction, but it seems like the OP is looking for a conventionally beautiful woman, and that's kind of shallow.


Would you have sex with someone who repulsed you?

Then how can you accuse the OP of being shallow, when you'd do it yourself?


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## jl1108 (Jul 10, 2011)

If you lock her in your basement long enough she'll start to like you, as she depends on you for food and water. (I'm joking)
My method, which by the way has not been working, is being direct. I tend to flat out tell girls I like them and want to get to know them better. Generally, I'd rate my success rate at about 2%. Most girls "just want to be friends."


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

I think it's hilarious how these topics come up as if men and women were completely different species. 
Let me ask you this, if you're a, let's say 7, what would a girl who's a 4 have to do to impress you? 

Now let's go a little deeper. Why does it matter? The post comes off very superficial and shallow, and if you're following girls like a sick puppy trying to get laid, even guys in the vicinity will smell that and no one, not even the "4-level" girl will want to get with you unless they're pissed drunk. I'd think twice then.


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## Brokenxx (Jul 11, 2011)

If your an average looking guy feeling sad because you can't get with a beautiful girl how do you think an ugly girl feels about not been able to get with an average looking guy?


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## pollster (Oct 4, 2009)

WintersTale said:


> Would you have sex with someone who repulsed you?
> 
> Then how can you accuse the OP of being shallow, when you'd do it yourself?


I'm confused about what we're talking about... wouldn't repulsion mean you find the person ugly and not "average" looking? People seem to be equating average looking with ugly in some posts, which is weird, because average implies the way most people look like (in between "ugly" and "beautiful").

I just quoted your post as an example, but I believe there were other posts that equally confused me on this subject.

I guess it helps to understand everyone's definition of "average" and "beautiful".... I would have interpreted the OPs post as "how can an average looking male (i.e. let's say "normal/common" looks) get with a woman who is beautiful / above-average by conventional standards (i.e. not the way most women look). Of course, how you further interpret those appearance descriptions is going to vary wildly from person to person. One person's beautiful is another person's average.


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## loquaciousintrovert (May 23, 2011)

> I think it's hilarious how these topics come up as if men and women were completely different species.


I can't speak for every woman, but sometimes I look at how some men behave and do wonder if they're another species.

*hides*


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

loquaciousintrovert said:


> No, it's not. Love has only one part--itself.
> 
> Obviously there has to be some physical attraction, but it seems like the OP is looking for a conventionally beautiful woman, *and that's kind of shallow*.


No, that's completely shallow. 



WintersTale said:


> Would you have sex with someone who repulsed you?
> 
> Then how can you accuse the OP of being shallow, when you'd do it yourself?


Repulsion towards another person is deeper than physical appearance. It's extremely difficult to find someone you're *repulsed* by based solely on their appearance.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Everyone here talks about "shallow" this and "shallow" that but yet they too judge and feel more/less attraction for people based upon looks. Not everyone is so keen on looks but I would bet money the majority of us are, both men and women. I think men are more vocal about it though, at least here. You can't possibly tell me women don't care about looks like men do. I've experienced first hand the truth and I see it all the time. People say one thing but it's their actions that speak the truth. Men and women are much more similar than you think. Some are just given advantages and privileges over others. Both sexes care about looks to a large degree so to say someone is shallow for it I find that ridiculous and hypocritical.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Exactly^^ No one walks around blindfolded when looking for a mate or just a casual fling.

But no matter how it's put people will always interpret this incorrectly. Can't do anything about that.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> Everyone here talks about "shallow" this and "shallow" that but yet they too judge and feel more/less attraction for people based upon looks. Not everyone is so keen on looks but I would bet money the majority of us are, both men and women. I think men are more vocal about it though, at least here. You can't possibly tell me women don't care about looks like men do. I've experienced first hand the truth and I see it all the time. People say one thing but it's their actions that speak the truth. Men and women are much more similar than you think. Some are just given advantages and privileges over others. Both sexes care about looks to a large degree so to say someone is shallow for it I find that ridiculous and hypocritical.


It is true that most people are always attracted to a specific type of person, but that always goes deeper. I personally couldn't be attracted to Brad Pitt if he were a republican, for example. 
To go ahead and say that we're hypocrites for calling out the TS on his shallowness is ridiculous. He's wondering how he, a self-proclaimed "average-looking guy," can get a hot girl. There's no base to that. He just wants to have sex with a pretty girl. It's almost like she's just a toy or a thing to conquer.



theseshackles said:


> Exactly^^
> 
> No one walks around blindfolded when looking for a mate or just a casual fling.


Unfortunately, no. Everyone would be happy and getting laid if that were the case.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

AllToAll said:


> It is true that most people are always attracted to a specific type of person, but that always goes deeper. I personally couldn't be attracted to Brad Pitt if he were a republican, for example.
> To go ahead and say that we're hypocrites for calling out the TS on his shallowness is ridiculous. He's wondering how he, a self-proclaimed "average-looking guy," can get a hot girl. There's no base to that. He just wants to have sex with a pretty girl. It's almost like she's just a toy or a thing to conquer.


While I don't condone the view of women as objects, he is asking a question. Haven't you ever thought to yourself how you could be with someone out of your league? Sex is a natural thing. People have sex for various reasons. I don't think lusting after a woman to have sex with as a shallow thing, but rather natural.

You also bring up Brad Pitt, but this argument is kind of off the topic based it is beyond physical appearance. This is strictly on physical appearance alone. If he is strictly talking about sex then he wants sex. If he is looking for a relationship with it's emotional intimacy and he is basing that only off physical appearance then that is another thing entirely. Haven't you ever wanted to have a "fling"? If not, then maybe your more republican than you think! jk


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

IcemanKilmer said:


> Being sexually attracted to a woman is a part of love. To tell someone they should search for a woman that they don't want to have sex with is depriving that person of love.


Sexual attraction isn't just love. Love is a deeper belonging, connection and desire to share life. Sexual attraction is lust. Two different things. You DO NOT have to be physically attracted to someone to love them.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> Haven't you ever thought to yourself how you could be with someone out of your league?


Well, since you ask... no.



> Sex is a natural thing. People have sex for various reasons. I don't think lusting after a woman _(or man)_ to have sex with as a shallow thing, but rather natural.


True.



> You also bring up Brad Pitt, but this argument is kind of off the topic based it is beyond physical appearance. This is strictly on physical appearance alone. If he is strictly talking about sex then he wants sex. If he is looking for a relationship with it's emotional intimacy and he is basing that only off physical appearance then that is another thing entirely. Haven't you ever wanted to have a "fling"? If not, then maybe your more republican than you think! jk


Yes, but then I'd want someone I could have fun with, not just a Brad Pitt.

If you want to have random sex, go for it. Hell, I'm all for it, but this thread crosses the barrier between attraction and superficiality by putting numbers on the appearance of a person and, moreover their value.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> He's wondering how he, a self-proclaimed "average-looking guy," can get a hot girl. *There's no base to that*.


See this is what I'm talking about. This is why so many people fear success.

I've known a lot of guys who were reluctant to date beautiful women *just because of what people might think*. That's when you'd have the usual "How did _he_ get a girl like that?" and the dreadful "Boy he must be really shallow".......that's why there are so many people who just go with the flow and conform to what society dictates...never attempting to realize their full potential. If you had a chance with someone who has 'the best of both worlds' I'm sure you'd hastily act on it.

Who gives two s**ts what people want to think? This post never came from a shallow point of view despite what anyone here wants to think, and my intentions weren't just to have a casual fling. I guess I shouldn't have used "hook up"...I meant more along the line of dating and a potential relationship, but I thought from the original question people would get that.

You can't _tell me_ what I meant if the content wasn't there. Where did I say I'm only factoring in appearance? Plus I even further explained myself...cmon man.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

theseshackles said:


> See this is what I'm talking about. This is why so many people fear success.
> 
> I've known a lot of guys who were reluctant to date beautiful women just because of what people might think. That's when you'd have the usual "How did _he_ get a girl like that?" and the dreadful "Boy he must be really shallow".......that's why there are so many people who just go with the flow and conform to what society dictates...never realizing their full potential.
> 
> ...


You obviously do since you want to date a girl who's "out of your league."
You also just used the word _success_ to describe the action of getting to date/be in a relationship with a good-looking woman. Therefore, you see it as lesser to date anything but, and that makes you superficial.

You also completely misquoted me.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

AllToAll said:


> If you want to have random sex, go for it. Hell, I'm all for it, but this thread crosses the barrier between attraction and superficiality by putting numbers on the appearance of a person and, moreover their value.


Most people here will agree physical attraction is subjective. Me, personally, I think there is a standard of physical beauty within cultures at certain times, but w/e.

I agree with you that the value of a person is not based on looks. But I'm also not against having a personal rating to rate someone's looks. After all, if it is truly subjective then everyone is going to have a different rating, right? LOL riiiiiighhhttt people? (smirks)


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

theseshackles said:


> See this is what I'm talking about. This is why so many people fear success.
> 
> I've known a lot of guys who were reluctant to date beautiful women *just because of what people might think*.Who gives two s**ts what people want to think? This post never came from a shallow point of view despite what anyone here wants to think, and my intentions weren't just to have a casual fling. .


 Very true. In high school now I had much more potential than I do now and I couldnt bring myself to ask girls out or whatever because the fear of what people might think. Oh look why is he with that average girl or even plain jane when he could be with a prettier girl would run through my head. I just didnt want to take the heat.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

It's not superficial to want to date someone who's attractive to you. It's only superficial if that's the _only _quality you care about. And appearance isn't the only thing you can be shallow about. If you say you want a partner who's funny, no one is going to jump down your throat and call you superficial for that, even if you consider it a dealbreaker. So why is it different for someone who says they want a partner who looks good? Besides, he never said that's the ONLY thing he's looking for.


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## pollster (Oct 4, 2009)

To the OP, I think the reason your thread is being met with mild "hostility" from some females is probably due, in part, to the different value that a lot of women seem to place on appearance (amongst other qualities) in relation to men; and perhaps more importantly, the feeling that women have of constantly being judged by society mostly on their appearance, and failing to meet perceived standards. 

The implication that one has failed to meet their full potential if they have a relationship with a woman who is equally average looking (as you) is likely going to be met with a frown by most females. Maybe this is just one of the many ways that males and females think differently about the value of physical appearance.

In short: probably one way to help your goal of dating a hot woman is to not ask this question in ear shot of a hot woman.  Because she'll likely quickly assess you as not caring about her other qualities as much as her appearance, and nobody wants to feel like a trophy.

(I say this without any hostility directed towards you. Just sayin'.)


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## pollster (Oct 4, 2009)

Ape in space said:


> It's not superficial to want to date someone who's attractive to you. It's only superficial if that's the _only _quality you care about.


:yes

And since looks fade along with youth, there's gotta be something there beyond that, or you're in for trouble.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

theseshackles said:


> See this is what I'm talking about. This is why so many people fear success.
> 
> I've known a lot of guys who were reluctant to date beautiful women *just because of what people might think*. That's when you'd have the usual "How did _he_ get a girl like that?" and the dreadful "Boy he must be really shallow".......that's why there are so many people who just go with the flow and conform to what society dictates...never attempting to realize their full potential. If you had a chance with someone who has 'the best of both worlds' I'm sure you'd hastily act on it.
> 
> ...


I didn't even read the first post to be honest. But after reading this, if your only wanting a relationship based on physical appearance then it probably isn't healthy. I still don't see anything wrong with wanting a woman who is both physically attractive inside and out though. Most women I've known also want the same thing from a man: physical and emotional attraction.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

pollster said:


> :yes
> 
> And since looks fade along with youth,


 Nope I know some very old people _still_ looking good in apperance..


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> You obviously do since you want to date a girl who's "out of your league."


I do not _want_ to date a girl who is out of my league I was just asking _if it's possible_.



AllToAll said:


> You also just used the word _success_ to describe the action of getting to date/be in a relationship with a good-looking woman. *Therefore*


Here we go again with the assumptions and conclusions

(that mention of success was meant to be in general, not so related to this matter)



AllToAll said:


> you see it as lesser to date anything but, and that makes you superficial.


No I don't.



theseshackles said:


> Hey the last girl I fell in love with had minor burn marks on one side of her face from a house fire when she was younger...but she was the most beautiful girl in the school because of her very friendly personality.


Ah boi this thread is nothing but a headache :lol


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

A lot of men on this site almost explode at the idea that a woman might want something in a man that she doesn't posess herself. She's worse than shallow if she wants a man who makes more money than her, is a certain height, or most cardinal of all sins, if she wants a man who is more social than she is. The implication being, "how dare she not give a short, shy, poor guy a chance". Yet it's different if a man who is nothing special looks wise asks for advice regarding how he can be with a beautiful woman. 

It seems more like some of you guys want the accomplishment, the self esteem you'd grant yourself if you collected a beautiful woman. Or maybe you're just cursed with a really fine eye for beauty. Because I can't tell who the beautiful women are. They're all the same to me. (Sarc for the overly literal reader).


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Girls wouldn't tell me they'd rather date a better looking guy to my face, but they;ll sure ignore my messages! I don't see how this is any different, especially when I wouldn't consider them that "hot" myself. That's life.


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

Atticus said:


> A lot of men on this site almost explode at the idea that a woman might want something in a man that she doesn't posess herself. She's worse than shallow if she wants a man who makes more money than her, is a certain height, or most cardinal of all sins, if she wants a man who is more social than she is. The implication being, "how dare she not give a short, shy, poor guy a chance". Yet it's different if a man who is nothing special looks wise asks for advice regarding how he can be with a beautiful woman.
> 
> It seems more like some of you guys want the accomplishment, the self esteem you'd grant yourself if you collected a beautiful woman. Or maybe you're just cursed with a really fine eye for beauty. Because I can't tell who the beautiful women are. They're all the same to me. (Sarc for the overly literal reader).


Hell yeah. Every word is win.
:clap


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

pollster said:


> In short: probably one way to help your goal of dating a hot woman is to not ask this question in ear shot of a hot woman.  Because she'll likely quickly assess you as not caring about her other qualities as much as her appearance, and nobody wants to feel like a trophy.


This is nothing but, a random thread. This is in no way a goal (or anything like that). I don't mind the debates here but of course a lot of what is asked here will only stay here :lol


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Atticus said:


> A lot of men on this site almost explode at the idea that a woman might want something in a man that she doesn't posess herself. She's worse than shallow if she wants a man who makes more money than her, is a certain height, or most cardinal of all sins, if she wants a man who is more social than she is. The implication being, "how dare she not give a short, shy, poor guy a chance". Yet it's different if a man who is nothing special looks wise asks for advice regarding how he can be with a beautiful woman.
> 
> It seems more like some of you guys want the accomplishment, the self esteem you'd grant yourself if you collected a beautiful woman. Or maybe you're just cursed with a really fine eye for beauty. Because I can't tell who the beautiful women are. They're all the same to me. (Sarc for the overly literal reader).


I accept that women will want different things a long time ago. If a woman wants money then she's not going to date me. OK. If a woman wants something better in any degree of w/e is perceived as better then she won't date me. OK. I've accepted that. I'm fine with it. Some are and some aren't. I would say your a hypocrite to want something you yourself cannot take rejection from and curse it unfair as atticus stated.


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## Peony Amaranth (Jul 9, 2011)

If you want to land a girl (any girl), the trick is subtle observation. And I don’t mean stand off to the side and drool over her. Men frequently charge in fumbling and wonder why they get shot down. Stop and observe her. What is she drinking? Is she with someone? Is she throwing herself on anyone who happens by? Is she shy? Observe her, learn her, even if it’s for one night in a club somewhere. If you take the time to understand what you’re goal is, you may just achieve it. Besides, there’s multiple ways encounters occur. 
For instance, you’re at a bar, and some run-of-the-mill guy is slobbering a cheesy pickup line all over the girl you’ve been eyeballing for the past half hour, step in. Clearly you can see that she’s uncomfortable and is having little to no success with ridding herself of the drunk, so take care of her. Not the drunk, but her, the drunk will fade off all on his own. That’s just one of an infinite number of ways to approach someone of interest. So long as you take in and understand their body language, you have all you need to advance on any opportunity. Once there, keep your attention on her, and I don’t mean the conversation, but be attentive of her. If you’re walking down the street, does she appear cold? Do you have eye contact? Is she playing with her hair, or are her hands tense and fidgety? For those who have issues communicating, body language is your ticket. However, it doesn’t matter how much you like a girl, if she doesn’t see you in that sense, you can’t make her. 
That's my opinion, anyway.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Peony Amaranth said:


> If you want to land a girl (any girl), the trick is subtle observation. And I don't mean stand off to the side and drool over her. Men frequently charge in fumbling and wonder why they get shot down. Stop and observe her. What is she drinking? Is she with someone? Is she throwing herself on anyone who happens by? Is she shy? Observe her, learn her, even if it's for one night in a club somewhere. If you take the time to understand what you're goal is, you may just achieve it. Besides, there's multiple ways encounters occur.
> For instance, you're at a bar, and some run-of-the-mill guy is slobbering a cheesy pickup line all over the girl you've been eyeballing for the past half hour, step in. Clearly you can see that she's uncomfortable and is having little to no success with ridding herself of the drunk, so take care of her. Not the drunk, but her, the drunk will fade off all on his own. That's just one of an infinite number of ways to approach someone of interest. So long as you take in and understand their body language, you have all you need to advance on any opportunity. Once there, keep your attention on her, and I don't mean the conversation, but be attentive of her. If you're walking down the street, does she appear cold? Do you have eye contact? Is she playing with her hair, or are her hands tense and fidgety? For those who have issues communicating, body language is your ticket. However, it doesn't matter how much you like a girl, if she doesn't see you in that sense, you can't make her.
> That's my opinion, anyway.


Gold. :yes


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## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

I don't know why we need 5 pages of debate. I've learned everything I've ever needed to know in life from scarface.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> Sexual attraction is lust.


So, when married couples have sex, they are always doing it out of lust? Interesting.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm just saying sexual attraction is PART of love. Not all of it.


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## fatelogic (Jun 21, 2011)

it is possible but you don't hook up with her... she hooks up with you.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

IcemanKilmer said:


> So, when married couples have sex, they are always doing it out of lust? Interesting.


Yeah, sure. Or maybe they use the inflatable pump? Idk...:b


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## Steve123 (Sep 13, 2009)

Lots of money, lots of charisma or lots of alcohol. Those are the only things I've heard of that work.


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## jl1108 (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm still trying to get past the "just friends barrier."
I got stuck there with nine different women.
All of which are smart, funny, and share similar hobbies to me.


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