# Why do most girls find it a deal breaker if the guy doesn't pay on the first date?



## Imbored21 (Jun 18, 2012)

I always hear girls talking about how if a guy doesn't pay on the first date, they lose interest completely. Why is this? Why do they expect someone they just met to pay for them? When I pay, I feel like I am sucking up to them. Is that what women like? A man who sucks up to them? I usually don't pay on the first date (i pay for my stuff, she pays for hers), because there is suppose to be a mutual interest in the date, not her providing a service for me. I'm talking about women in the 18-25 year old range. Do they ever grow out of their princess complexes?


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## 9090 (Feb 24, 2014)

it seems to be an american thing. In NZ, there are no formal rules around things like that, and many girls would be offended if you paid for them. I am surprised that so many girls are so uptight about the whole thing.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

Perhaps they were raised with this old-fashioned mentality and never thought to question it, since it seems pretty ingrained. Or perhaps they're just cheap. (Some people will make any excuse to avoid having to pay.)

Regarding social outings, I have never once wanted somebody to pay my way, and if they do, I'd insist on paying them back if I could. I loathe being indebted or obligated to anyone. Feels lousy. :|

Even being on SSI makes me feel bad.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

It's symbolic of you being able to take care of her and it also shows that you consider us valuable. 

Do you really want a girl to think she wasn't even worth $15 to you?


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## Vallarfax (Jul 31, 2014)

Make the first date a coffee date and that way you are only out about $5. After that I wouldn't pay.


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## Cenarius (Aug 2, 2014)

Girls say it's a dealbreaker, but in my very limited experience, if they like you they're not actually going to hold it against you.


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## Vallarfax (Jul 31, 2014)

Waifu said:


> It's symbolic of you being able to take care of her and it also shows that you consider us valuable.
> 
> Do you really want a girl to think she wasn't even worth $15 to you?


Going out with me if I don't pay is symbolic of you seeing me more than as just a meal ticket.


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## ScorchedEarth (Jul 12, 2014)

Vallarfax said:


> Going out with me if I don't pay is symbolic of you seeing me more than as just a meal ticket.


This, Also, sexism. I'd say the split should be according to the financial means of each.


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## VictimEternal (Aug 10, 2014)

Cause the deal is not sealed?


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## wherecanigo (Oct 31, 2013)

pfft, first date? try like the first 4-5, minimum



SadSack1987 said:


> This, Also, sexism. I'd say the split should be according to the financial means of each.


good luck figuring that out on the first date


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

In the last 3 1st dates I have been on, the girl either gave me cash for her half (on her own accord), offered to pay her share (In which case I say thanks but no thanks and pay for her) or in the case of my last date paid for us both before I even had a chance to get my wallet out. So at least in my experience and in my part of the world, it's being viewed as an equal occasion where the old standards no longer necessarily apply.


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## anxious87 (Oct 6, 2013)

Yeah, it's probably how she was raised/her background. I find it a bit degrading when I see couples where one person is paying for it all, unless they're on some alternating schedule. In my last relationship, we'd alternate who pays each time.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

Because most guys ask for the date, and if you're offering to take someone out to a place you planned, then its polite to treat. I wouldn't ask my friend if she wanted to go for a ride then tell her to pay for gas, i did the inviting so i should expect to pay. Its polite to offer to pay your oqn part, so i would do that on a date as well. But i wouldnt expect nor want to pay for myself. Just like when i invite a guy out on the town, i say its my treat, since its my idea and my planning. So, I wouldn't take it kindly if someone invited me out for a night with the expectation that I'd split the bill.


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## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

Waifu said:


> Do you really want a girl to think she wasn't even worth $15 to you?


How much do you consider yourself to be worth? (in dollars)


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Social convention. Most girls assume that the guy isn't interested if he doesn't pay because pretty much everyone knows that guys are expected to pay on the first date. Someone who isn't following social conventions is going to be seen as unusual or uninterested - that's just the way it is.


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## Nonsensical (Mar 29, 2013)

This thread made me realize some thing.










Any bachelorettes want to go out?


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## Recovering Recluse (Aug 3, 2014)

Yes, I believe many women are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Yes, if you don't pay I think you're going to be single for awhile. The compromise I struck was to choose inexpensive first dates. Also, I paid, but I nexted women who didn't at least offer to pay, who felt it was my obligation to pay as opposed to generosity. Some women didn't like that. The price they paid for being sexist.


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## Hazelg (Aug 9, 2014)

Man, don't see it that way. "How much do you consider yourself to be worth? (in dollars)".

I'm a girl. when i read the Wifu's post, it made me smile. I think it has a lot to do with her background, and the fact that..as a woman, it feels nice and that the guy is not selfish and capable to pay.

Now, im also in Australia, and in my personal experience, i feel very uncomfortable when a guy pays the whole bill. I prefer to share the bill. I had a few times when the he paid, but i was so broke at the time, that even paying the train ticket to meet him was difficult for me. And still, i felt uncomfortable when he paid.

it depends on the girl background, Some will value very positively that you are paying. Some will get offended, and others like me, would prefer to split the bill.


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## Hazelg (Aug 9, 2014)

omg i made so many mistakes in the last post...........................


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## Nonsensical (Mar 29, 2013)

Hazelg said:


> omg i made so many mistakes in the last post...........................


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## Cenarius (Aug 2, 2014)

Nonsensical said:


> http://i.imgur.com/lCeSOie.png?1[IMG][/QUOTE]
> 
> At 6 posts and that join date, I doubt she has an edit button yet.


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## Nonsensical (Mar 29, 2013)

W A N D E R L U S T said:


> Well, I've got no money left. How do you think I paid for the dress, heals, purse, make up, nail polish, perfume and hairspray just to look good for you? So selfish... :no


They expect us to pay for those things too some times. Plus at 17 I don't think you bought any of those things.

Sorry.


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## ScorchedEarth (Jul 12, 2014)

I should really stop reading this forum. Every time I do, I'm given another reason not to give dating a chance. Yet it's only the internet, it doesn't count until I've actually put myself out there and been burnt.


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## Nonsensical (Mar 29, 2013)

W A N D E R L U S T said:


> Go speak to Honey Boo Boo then come back and talk to me.


Using a pseudo-celebrity as an example is a moot point for average people.


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## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

Nonsensical said:


> ...


You don't get the edit button until you've made 50 posts....


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## Jesuszilla (May 26, 2013)

Waifu said:


> It's symbolic of you being able to take care of her and it also shows that you consider us valuable.
> 
> Do you really want a girl to think she wasn't even worth $15 to you?


To me the first date should be about 2 things: having fun and getting to know her. So I'm all for $15 dates.


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## Szeth (Jul 5, 2014)

Good, all of you guys getting hung up on a little bit of money just keep fighting the social norms and for equality or whatever, you're making it easier for the rest of us. And Barette makes a good point, it's usually the guy pursuing. She's only having dinner with you because you invited her. You have the opportunity to show her that you're at least gracious and generous enough to make the small gesture of buying someone a meal. But no, you'd rather be $15 to $20 ahead in life. You've presumably just spent the last hour trying to impress this person and then when given the chance to do something small beyond just talk you throw it away. Seems counterproductive. It also seems insecure to feel like you're being taken advantage of by buying someone dinner.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

The point of who asked out who I think is quite a valid one too. In the cases of what I mentioned in my previous post, the two who paid were the ones who approached me, so I didn't really think of it that way previously but it very much could have been their reasoning for acting as they did.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

There is so much gray on this issue.

I really dont care unless im paying every single time. Im a firm believer in sharing the load, especially with the economy.


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## mezzoforte (May 16, 2010)

tehuti88 said:


> Perhaps they were raised with this old-fashioned mentality and never thought to question it, since it seems pretty ingrained. Or perhaps they're just cheap. (Some people will make any excuse to avoid having to pay.)


Yeah, these are probably the most popular reasons.


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## Nonsensical (Mar 29, 2013)

W A N D E R L U S T said:


> Like others have already said (kind of) depends on how they were raised I guess.
> 
> I'm not average. I'm above average. Don't be jealous of her just because she wears a pink tutu better, your time will come one day. Just not today.
> 
> P.S Forgot hair extensions and sometimes a spray tan.


You made no valid argument or any point other than flaunting yourself and insulting me. If women want to be free and independent then they can go do that just don't come back for a wallet. Rather insulting.

Also, it sounds like you have some extra $$$... Think you can buy me dinner?


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Nonsensical said:


> You made no valid argument or any point other than flaunting yourself and insulting me. If women want to be free and independent then they can go do that just don't come back for a wallet. Rather insulting.
> 
> Also, it sounds like you have some extra $$$... Think you can buy me dinner?


 Some expect it for the wallet but some are actually just purely old school and taught to be old school.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

arnie said:


> How much do you consider yourself to be worth? (in dollars)


If you have to ask then you can't afford me bro.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

Szeth said:


> She's only having dinner with you because you invited her.


See that's the thing. I hope she isn't there for a meal only because I invited her. I would hope she is there because she is interested in getting to know me as I am with her. I dislike the attitude that some have that it is a privilege that the girl deigned to agree to go out with a guy. And yes it's been said on this forum before.



> It also seems insecure to feel like you're being taken advantage of by buying someone dinner.


Some females (maybe some guys too) do this though. Hopefully they are few and far between but some will agree to the date just hoping to get at least a free meal out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I have no qualms about paying on dates, but if I'm the one paying all the time, every time then we might have a problem and I'd feel like I'm being used.


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## Nonsensical (Mar 29, 2013)

W A N D E R L U S T said:


> Because my first post was sarcasm...
> 
> If you buy me a new car, I'll take you to an all you can eat buffet. Or get you a happy meal from maccas.


Oh lol. It's so hard to read sarcasm on this website when so many people have crazy ideas...


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## FXiles (Dec 31, 2011)

It makes sense that you split the bill. You should treat eachother equally. Dates shouldn't be expensive anyway, the goal is that the two of you should get to know eachother. The goal is not to impress the girl by showing off your fat wallet.

That's my take anyway.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

W A N D E R L U S T said:


> Because my first post was sarcasm...
> 
> If you buy me a new car, I'll take you to an all you can eat buffet. Or get you a happy meal from maccas.





Nonsensical said:


> Oh lol. It's so hard to read sarcasm on this website when so many people have crazy ideas...


:lol ... I was following this whole exchange in amusement but toward the end was like, "Dayum, I thought they were joking, you mean they weren't? I suck at reading social cues even more than I thought. :um "


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## anomnomnom (May 28, 2013)

Ah this old chestnut

Good thing I'm not that bothered about dating.

I think I wrote my thoughts on this in 1 of the many other threads about the same topic, I would pay just out of being nice, not because I feel it was a deal breaker if I didnt, I would also expect some sort of offer on her behalf to go halves (which I'd reject but it would show me a lot) if she just sits there happily letting me pay like I'm just a giant wallet to milk, that aint gonna last long at all. 

All you guys who will bend over backwards throwing your money at women are welcome to do so, I personally would rather be in a relationship with someone who thought 50/50 was fair and not simply because I'm tight. I'd rather be single than bled dry on a weekly basis, thanks


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## visualkeirockstar (Aug 5, 2012)

They cheap that's why.


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## Skeletra (Aug 30, 2012)

I personally feel like I'm taking advantage of guys when they pay for the whole meal. Specially if they do it all the time. I feel like I'm some kind of parasite just leaching on to him for his wallet, even though I don't have an income.
But then again I was socially raised in a more modern environment. My "friends" were all feminists. 

A lot of girls have more of an old-fashioned dating ideal, where the man pays either as long as you are just dating or forever as a main provider. He is symbolically taking care of her.


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## Schmosby (Jan 26, 2014)

I don't believe in this pursuing a woman thing, I don't pursue women, I talk with a woman and we both make an evaluation of each other, then one of us will ask about meeting and the other person will agree if they like them too, then you meet up and see if you click, it's very much a 50/50 process, ypu are both working to see if a relationship is possible which is something you both want. I don't think the person asking needs to pay, as when you say you also want to go you are taking 50% of the responsibility. I would say the universal answer would be to pay 50/50 each, but I do think if one earns a lot less than the other, it would be nice for the other person to pay, but that's just being a nice human being, personally I always offer to pay for anybody I'm out with as friends or love interest, male or female.

If I thought someone I was meeting up with me expected me to pay, I would find that quite repulsive and it wouldn't happen.


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## inane (Oct 21, 2013)

It shows class and that they value your company enough to not be stingy. I've paid for coworkers/friends/family's drinks or meals before, and it's always a gracious move to step in and insist on covering for them.

I know men will give the argument that the woman is just a gold-digger, but think about it yourself. If your boss for example took you out for drinks, he/she doesn't _have _to pay for it, but what is your perspective if he/she did? It's about class, not just money, but what the gesture symbolizes... On a first date where first impressions are everything, it's something many women will intuitively judge.

It's not a guaranteed deal-breaker to me, but I definitely hold people in higher esteem when they're the type to step up to it (mostly just the _action _of offering, showing willingness/intention- I wouldn't actually let someone pay for me most of the time unless they're a close friend or family member).


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I would not expect (or want) him to pay for me, unless he insisted we go somewhere very expensive that I can't afford. But I doubt I'd date someone where that situation would occur anyway. It would make me uncomfortable I think.
> 
> I also, as someone else pointed out, think this may be a more common expectation in the US than some other countries.


Have you had a guy pay for you before? It feels good like he cares about you and you're worth it.


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## Szeth (Jul 5, 2014)

Darktower776 said:


> See that's the thing. I hope she isn't there for a meal only because I invited her. I would hope she is there because she is interested in getting to know me as I am with her. I dislike the attitude that some have that it is a privilege that the girl deigned to agree to go out with a guy. And yes it's been said on this forum before.


If you invite and she accepts out of genuine interest in you you're still the one who initiated it. It's very common for the person who invites to pay for dinner even in non-dating scenarios. I don't see what the big deal is about paying on the first date.

And it is nice when a girl agrees to go out with you. I wouldn't exactly call it a privilege, that's probably overstating things, but it is nice to be shown interest in enough that a woman would go out with someone who's probably mostly a stranger to her.



> Some females (maybe some guys too) do this though. Hopefully they are few and far between but some will agree to the date just hoping to get at least a free meal out of it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I have no qualms about paying on dates, but if I'm the one paying all the time, every time then we might have a problem and I'd feel like I'm being used.


I doubt the vast majority of women out there are in the habit of going on dates with men they don't like just so they can get some free food. And I was talking about the first date, guys shouldn't pay for everything all the time. Some women of course do get with men for their money (something I don't need to worry about haha) but I wouldn't suspect that of someone just because I paid on the first date.


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## Jammer25 (Feb 22, 2014)

If you invite a woman out, sure, it's polite to pay because you're the one who invited her (as it would apply to anyone who does the inviting in most situations, in my opinion). But if she never even _offers_ to pay her share - first date or otherwise - more often than not I have found that those women are out to take advantage of you in general. I'm not one to put them on pedestals in this, "she gave me the time of day to go out with me" idea as an impetus to pay.

At some point in a relationship, I would assume that you share other expenses as well. It would fall into a larger 'pulling her own weight/paying her share' type of deal, rather than just worrying about paying when you go out.


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## Nessie91 (Jan 5, 2012)

I wouldn't mind paying for my own food or drinks.. a guy doesn't have to pay for me. But probably deep down I would call him a cheapskate lol


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## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

AussiePea said:


> The point of who asked out who I think is quite a valid one too. In the cases of what I mentioned in my previous post, the two who paid were the ones who approached me, so I didn't really think of it that way previously but it very much could have been their reasoning for acting as they did.


We're lucky that women do ask guys out down here. I kind of feel for guys in parts of the world where they are expected to be the only one to both ask the girl out _and_ pay for everything. I can see why they would feel it's a bit unfair.


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## awkwardsilent (Jun 14, 2012)

IDK but I am one woman who would rather just pay for my own stuff, possibly for both of us if the place is not too pricey. But if you ask me out, pick an expensive place and then expect me to foot the bill, thats just too gold-digger-ish for me and I don't like that characteristic in a guy (or in a girl, i just happen to be a straight female so as far as dating its not really my issue...).


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## OutsideR1 (Mar 13, 2014)

Waifu said:


> If you have to ask then you can't afford me bro.


Cheaper to get a hooker then


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

I dont mind paying for a full date even on regular basis but only for someone that I think it may lead to a relationship I begrudge paying for people who I would consider serial daters yes even women can be players to some degree, for whatever reason just like going out and expect a nice evening paid for them.

It gives them something to do and they lose nothing other than the time spent getting ready and being there, it possibly may to lead to sex if they like the guy but have no intention of making it any more than it is.

Urgh and I hate these girls that want an expensive day out as a first date like at a theme park or day trip somewhere.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> Social convention. Most girls assume that the guy isn't interested if he doesn't pay because pretty much everyone knows that guys are expected to pay on the first date. Someone who isn't following social conventions is going to be seen as unusual or uninterested - that's just the way it is.


More like an old tradition from a time when men were the breadwinners and women relegated to housewives and didn't have much or any spending money.

Now a lot of women out earn their male partners these days.

I think interest should be shown and determined by attraction and chemistry, not money. I'm lucky I've run into a lot of women who are enlightened and progressive and offer to pay half without me even asking. As much as I love women, I don't think they're so great I should have to pay them to spend time with me.

It's kind of insulting when a woman selects and expensive venue for a first date and expects me to pay - we don't even know if we'll hit it off yet! I could buy them a nice dinner then never hear from them or see them again. Which means I wasted my time and money, for nothing. The gamble didn't pay off and I'm left holding the bag. S*** deal for me. I can see why women like it. Pretend to be interested, show up, get free stuff. Laugh all the way home about dumb guys blowing money on them thinking they had a chance.

On the other hand, if I do start dating a person I'm happy to be occasionally generous and treat. That way it goes towards building a relationship, instead of it being a free dinner charity for users.

Men don't like to be used for money under false pretenses, same as women don't like being used for sex.


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## Socialanxiety11 (Oct 3, 2011)

if you ask me out, you're paying PERIOD. It has nothing to do with princess complex. Don't shoot the messenger, i didn't make societies "rules".


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> More like an old tradition from a time when men were the breadwinners and women relegated to housewives and didn't have much or any spending money.
> 
> Now a lot of women out earn their male partners these days.
> 
> ...





Socialanxiety11 said:


> if you ask me out, you're paying PERIOD. It has nothing to do with princess complex. Don't shoot the messenger, i didn't make societies "rules".


While I dont want to start a gender war this is where I feel female equality turns a blind eye :b Whilst I dont mind playing the gentleman I do feel it gets taken advantage of in some cases.

Yes SA11 I do agree with you to some degree but would you pay for me if you asked me out on a date as most of the people that I end up talking to including my last date approached me or would I be still seen to be the cheapskate societies rules seem to be there when it suits you can choose to pay if you wish its not like girls have it in law that they are automatically privileged to get free dates which is what I think most guys on here are complaining about, just seems most girls seem to think why should they and as mjkittredge stated a lot of girls are now financially better off than guys so gone are the days where it wasnt viable for a girl to pay.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

AndrewUK83 said:


> While I dont want to start a gender war this is where I feel female equality turns a blind eye :b Whilst I dont mind playing the gentleman I do feel it gets taken advantage of in some cases.
> 
> Yes SA11 I do agree with you to some degree but would you pay for me if you asked me out on a date as most of the people that I end up talking to including my last date approached me or would I be still seen to be the cheapskate societies rules seem to be there when it suits you can choose to pay if you wish its not like girls have it in law that they are automatically privileged to get free dates which is what I think most guys on here are complaining about, just seems most girls seem to think why should they and as mjkittredge stated a lot of girls are now financially better off than guys so gone are the days where it wasnt viable for a girl to pay.


 I like what you said at the end of your post. We both work. Share the load. If you offer to pay I probably will not argue. Some guys will actually argue with a woman that offers to pay by saying "you're not supposed to pay". Thats the confusion in todays world though because you have to basically guess and wing it on which view you encounter. The only time i get annoyed is if im paying all the time, because then i wonder if im being used. Which makes me wonder if men wonder the same thing.


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

purechaos said:


> I like what you said at the end of your post. We both work. Share the load. If you offer to pay I probably will not argue. Some guys will actually argue with a woman that offers to pay by saying "you're not supposed to pay". Thats the confusion in todays world though because you have to basically guess and wing it on which view you encounter. The only time i get annoyed is if im paying all the time, because then i wonder if im being used. Which makes me wonder if men wonder the same thing.


You my dear have great wisdom 

Some of the genuine people like yourself would probably offer which is good enough for me if they actually mean it what I don't agree with is that is expected of a guy regardless of expense like when they dont bring any cash/cards, hell I spend nearly £50 to go to the cinema at the IMAX with food and drinks included which for a first date is a tad expensive 2nd for 3rd date fair enough where its been determined you are gonna hear back from them but doing that several times a month with different girls as they dont work out the money mounts up.

But there is this idea now that guys are judged on the type of date they come up with sure some people are happy to go for a few cheap drinks for a couple of hours but now I am seeing more and more people saying they want an exciting day out at the coast or paint balling so you could be spending £100+ on petrol food maybe even accommodation if things go that way then they never speak to you again.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

purechaos said:


> The only time i get annoyed is if im paying all the time, because then i wonder if im being used. Which makes me wonder if men wonder the same thing.


Yes, I definitely would feel like I'm being used. This would be especially true if she never even made a gesture or offered to pay- ever. I just don't think that's right and even if I was dating a woman that made a lot more than me, I would not expect her to pay for me all or even most of the time.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

Darktower776 said:


> Yes, I definitely would feel like I'm being used. This would be especially true if she never even made a gesture or offered to pay- ever. I just don't think that's right and even if I was dating a woman that made a lot more than me, I would not expect her to pay for me all or even most of the time.


If a guy expected me to pay half then I would feel used. I let him take me out and I have to pay for it myself?! What the ****? If I was going to buy my own food then I'd go somewhere I wanted to eat and I'd go with someone I knew I liked and not a total stranger.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> If a guy expected me to pay half then I would feel used. I let him take me out and I have to pay for it myself?! What the ****? If I was going to buy my own food then I'd go somewhere I wanted to eat and I'd go with someone I knew I liked and not a total stranger.


 Really? Maybe the guy has rent to pay. How the heck do you feel used if you are only paying your part and not his too?


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Like if a guy was forthright and said "hey i would love to pay for you but have all these bills do you mind splitting the bill?" What would you say?


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

purechaos said:


> Really? Maybe the guy has rent to pay. How the heck do you feel used if you are only paying your part and not his too?


It's not my part because there is no my part. The date is all his part. He should have created and paid for the date that he has invited me to. I'm not going to pay for his chance to try to win me over.



purechaos said:


> Like if a guy was forthright and said "hey i would love to pay for you but have all these bills do you mind splitting the bill?" What would you say?


I would say pick a cheaper date idea and if he sprung that on me after the date when the bill came I'd refuse and walk out on him.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> It's not my part because there is no my part. The date is all his part. He should have created and paid for the date that he has invited me to. I'm not going to pay for his chance to try to win me over.
> 
> I would say pick a cheaper date idea and if he sprung that on me after the date when the bill came I'd refuse and walk out on him.


 Would you suggest an alternative then? For instance "lets go to the park then, stop by subway or something"


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

purechaos said:


> Would you suggest an alternative then? For instance "lets go to the park then, stop by subway or something"


I would think the broke guy should have some ideas of how to have cheap fun or does he always just rely on tricking women into helping him pay for everything he does?


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> I would think the broke guy should have some ideas of how to have cheap fun or does he always just rely on tricking women into helping him pay for everything he does?


Lol!


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## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

Barette said:


> Because most guys ask for the date, and if you're offering to take someone out to a place you planned, then its polite to treat. I wouldn't ask my friend if she wanted to go for a ride then tell her to pay for gas, i did the inviting so i should expect to pay. Its polite to offer to pay your oqn part, so i would do that on a date as well. But i wouldnt expect nor want to pay for myself. Just like when i invite a guy out on the town, i say its my treat, since its my idea and my planning. So, I wouldn't take it kindly if someone invited me out for a night with the expectation that I'd split the bill.


Wait, so whenever you invite your friends to hang out or to go eat, you always pay for them? I've gone out several times with my high school friends and we almost always pay our own part. There are some instances where I might end up paying for them because they forgot money or something, but they always end up paying me back.


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## Cenarius (Aug 2, 2014)

gunner21 said:


> Wait, so whenever you invite your friends to hang out or to go eat, you always pay for them? I've gone out several times with my high school friends and we almost always pay our own part. There are some instances where I might end up paying for them because they forgot money or something, but they always end up paying me back.


Yeah I thought that was odd too. I guess the closest thing is sometimes I would buy a few pizzas and then everyone would chip in a few dollars, and usually come up short and I'd treat them that extra difference rather than make a big deal of it.


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## FXiles (Dec 31, 2011)

Waifu said:


> I would think the broke guy should have some ideas of how to have cheap fun or does he always just rely on tricking women into helping him pay for everything he does?


Tricking women? :lol

I think the idea here is that each person pays for themselves. Sure if you take someone out on an expensive date then you should pay for it.

But if it's just a regular date, say at a cafe, then each person gets what they want and of course pays for it. You make it sound like you're being dragged out by someone that you have no interest in, and you want him to impress you.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Socialanxiety11 said:


> if you ask me out, you're paying PERIOD. It has nothing to do with princess complex. Don't shoot the messenger, i didn't make societies "rules".


You can make your own rules, you don't have to blindly follow what society does.

If you think it's fair to take a mans money and then reject him after you benefit from his generosity, that is a princess mentality and princess behavior.

If you want a equality and fair treatment, a 50/50 relationship with equal effort, you can't pick and choose which issues to make an exception that only benefit you.

Imagine if societies roles were reversed and all women were supposed to buy men expensive dinners and such on the first date, and would be labelled cheapskates and d-bags if they didn't, how would you like it? Probably not much!


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Waifu said:


> It's not my part because there is no my part. The date is all his part. He should have created and paid for the date that he has invited me to. I'm not going to pay for his chance to try to win me over.
> 
> I would say pick a cheaper date idea and if he sprung that on me after the date when the bill came I'd refuse and walk out on him.


The attitude of entitlement is obnoxious. "I'm a woman, I bothered to show up for you, now buy me stuff!"

Maybe you should be thinking of how you could win HIM over, instead of it being all about you.

The way you word it, it sounds like men are buying a lottery ticket to your vagina.


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## inane (Oct 21, 2013)

mjkittredge said:


> You can make your own rules, you don't have to blindly follow what society does.
> 
> *If you think it's fair to take a mans money and then reject him after you benefit from his generosity, *that is a princess mentality and princess behavior.
> 
> ...


The woman owes you *nothing *beyond that date- and if you asked her out, you are responsible for the bill. Most women I know will at least offer to split, but that is their move to be gracious; how you respond is yours.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

inane said:


> The woman owes you *nothing *beyond that date- and if you asked her out, you are responsible for the bill. Most women I know will at least offer to split, but that is their move to be gracious; how you respond is yours.


 I agree..

But what if the chick said "hey lets go to the movies"

She expected to fit the bill?


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## inane (Oct 21, 2013)

purechaos said:


> I agree..
> 
> But what if the chick said "hey lets go to the movies"
> 
> She expected to fit the bill?


The rule is that the person who does the asking out, pays. I've paid for the other person's drink (although not dates, just coworker stuff) whether I was one or the other, and trust me, it showed me a great deal about the person's character when they're shocked and insist and insist on covering the bill, and I have to practically fight them over it :lol THAT is the kind of person you want to spend time with again 

The other kind, who asks the person out, expects them to pay, and even expects MORE afterwards just because the person accepted to hang out? BYE!


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## Testsubject (Nov 25, 2013)

Because some like to crush our idea of reciprocation.


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## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

inane said:


> The rule is that the person who does the asking out, pays. I've paid for the other person's drink (although not dates, just coworker stuff) whether I was one or the other, and trust me, it showed me a great deal about the person's character when they're shocked and insist and insist on covering the bill, and I have to practically fight them over it :lol THAT is the kind of person you want to spend time with again
> 
> The other kind, who asks the person out, expects them to pay, and even expects MORE afterwards just because the person accepted to hang out? BYE!


Who the hell made this rule? It's a stupid rule. Again, when me and my friends go out, we spilt the bill, regardless of who invited who.


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## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

mjkittredge said:


> *The attitude of entitlement is obnoxious. "I'm a woman, I bothered to show up for you, now buy me stuff!"
> 
> Maybe you should be thinking of how you could win HIM over, instead of it being all about you.
> 
> The way you word it, it sounds like men are buying a lottery ticket to your vagina.*


Haha. This. :yes


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

inane said:


> The woman owes you *nothing *beyond that date- and if you asked her out, you are responsible for the bill. Most women I know will at least offer to split, but that is their move to be gracious; how you respond is yours.


Didn't say imply a woman owed a man anything, other than respect.

Good job insinuating I said something I didn't.

Whoever asks who out it shouldn't be slanted towards favoritism for women. Otherwise it sets a bad trend for the rest of the relationship. Shouldn't it be more 50-50, give and take, in a healthy relationship? A guy paying for everything shows he thinks the woman is more valuable and important than him. I have done it in the past, when I felt I had to, but regretted it even when there were several or more dates afterwards or they had sex with me after I took them out. Because it sends the wrong message, that I'm a cash spigot they can turn and have dollars spew out of my bank account into their hands. Part of the problem is the negative voices of SA in our heads tells us we don't have value, that we should give in to whatever others want to make them happy, and this results in us getting used. You shouldn't enter into one sided contracts or dates.

Now I've changed tactics, low cost or no cost first date to gauge if there is any interest, and then afterwards if we like each other I'll be generous occasionally and pay for everything. But not every time, unless they are legit broke.

I just hate how we get these attitudes of entitlement, by guys putting women on pedestals, by letting them take advantage of their hope and generosity. And by people like you white knighting and making excuses for it.

What special treatment do we get, as guys, to balance it out? Hm?


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> The attitude of entitlement is obnoxious. "I'm a woman, I bothered to show up for you, now buy me stuff!"
> 
> Maybe you should be thinking of how you could win HIM over, instead of it being all about you.
> 
> *The way you word it, it sounds like men are buying a lottery ticket to your vagina.*


That cracked me up so much :teeth

Other than purechaos the ladies of this thread kinda prove our point, but I have yet to see any of you say if you would prepared to pay if you asked a guy on a date if the guys wants a date he has to pay so how about in a reverse situation I feel it would be exactly the same with the guy having to pay.

End of the day it is about mutual respect if you are the type of person that "expect" something from another just because you believe it should be so then I would certainly have no interest in dating that type of girl I am all for paying for a girl but then if you expect an expensive meal as a first date then dont even have the decency to offer to contribute even if I dont let you then forget it, a relationship is give and take and the girls should be trying to win the guy over too as he can just as easily not bother with a second date as he may think is this the kind of attitude to expect when in a relationship.

Oh and about these "rules" for going out there are no rules for going out, if I am going with a big group we all pay for ourselves, if it is one or two we pay for each others drinks taking turns through the evening then each pay for ourself for anything more expensive such as a meal unless it is a special occasion such as birthday then will chip in to pay for that persons meal. If someone asked to go out and they were unemployed and just needed to get out the house for a bit then I would pay for the drinks I certainly wouldnt ask them to pay if they werent working but we wouldnt go out for an expensive meal either so it is not costing the world.


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## inane (Oct 21, 2013)

gunner21 said:


> Who the hell made this rule? It's a stupid rule. Again, when me and my friends go out, we spilt the bill, regardless of who invited who.


It depends on the nature of the outing and who you're going with, obviously. My friends and I split the bill when we go out usually, but we are close and value each other enough that we _want _to treat each other. My best friend has pushed me out of the way to pay for my ice cream, and I've told a cashier to charge a top I'm buying twice and not my friend's (we were buying identical tops)... *It's just a nice thing to do*. It's not mandatory. Feel free to be stingy, it's no one's business but yours... but I prefer what me and my friends have, and I think it's the more pleasant social custom.



mjkittredge said:


> Didn't say imply a woman owed a man anything, other than respect.
> 
> Good job insinuating I said something I didn't.
> 
> ...


Good job insinuating I said something I didn't  Who said you have to give your date special treatment? Only that if you asked her out, it is common courtesy that you at least offer to pay the bill. As well, where did I say the man should be paying for everything in a relationship? This thread is about a first date.

I agree with your general premise- My boyfriend in high school had the mindset that he should pay for everything, I suppose because of some "provider" instinct. It definitely creates a relationship imbalance that eventually, in the long-term, tends to make the woman take it for granted. I would be angry if my older brother or male cousin/friends were treated that way.

But again, we're talking about first dates here which is different. How the woman reacts to your paying is also a good gauge for you to judge her character, while showing class on your part either way.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> The attitude of entitlement is obnoxious. "I'm a woman, I bothered to show up for you, now buy me stuff!"
> 
> Maybe you should be thinking of how you could win HIM over, instead of it being all about you.
> 
> The way you word it, it sounds like men are buying a lottery ticket to your vagina.


That's how it works and I don't get why you think it could or should work any other way. The guy is attracted to me and asks me out and I don't know anything about him so I'm giving him a chance to persuade me into being attracted to him. I'm not going to pay for his chance to persuade me that would be ridiculous.



AndrewUK83 said:


> That cracked me up so much :teeth
> 
> Other than purechaos the ladies of this thread kinda prove our point, but I have yet to see any of you say if you would prepared to pay if you asked a guy on a date if the guys wants a date he has to pay so how about in a reverse situation I feel it would be exactly the same with the guy having to pay.


Why would I ever ask a guy out? If he's too cowardly to ask me out then he's too cowardly to date me.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> That's how it works and I don't get why you think it could or should work any other way. The guy is attracted to me and asks me out and I don't know anything about him so I'm giving him a chance to persuade me into being attracted to him. I'm not going to pay for his chance to persuade me that would be ridiculous.
> 
> Why would I ever ask a guy out? If he's too cowardly to ask me out then he's too cowardly to date me.


 Im so confused


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

purechaos said:


> Im so confused


Why?


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## Skeletra (Aug 30, 2012)

^ Because you're very old fashioned and she's not.

For me the old fashioned method is more like:
Man asks woman on date, woman plays hard to get but accepts. Man has to convince woman to get a second date. Gender roles are enforced. Man finds place and activity for the date and acts as the provider. Ideally man should also open doors and hold chairs and all that.

The modern method is more like:
Man asks woman to date, woman accepts. Mutual planning of place and activity. Both parts try to not **** up and achieve a second date. Gender roles are not as enforced. Both act as providers in a possible household so both pay. Chivalry is dead. Woman can open doors herself. 
Both parts sit there and text their friends for 20 minutes before even talking...

Of course I notice they're not usually that far out on the scales (Old-fashined--|--Modern), and this is just based on my personal observation, so I'm not sure if there is any science in it.


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## Icy Tulips (Jul 28, 2014)

The person who does the asking should be prepared to pay for everything. (Note that I say _prepared_. The other person may insist on paying for their share.) _Unless_ that other person makes a suggestion to go somewhere afterward. In that case, they should be willing to foot the bill. A date is not like meeting up with your friends, so it's not even a comparison in my view. It doesn't have to be expensive. If you can't afford to pay for your half and the other person's half at a certain place, then don't go. You'd have to have a lot of nerve to have them pay when you asked them to go somewhere with you in the first place. It's a date. If you liked them enough, then you should be treating them and it shouldn't be a problem. It's as simple as that from my perspective.

Beyond the first date, I think it should be discussed by both people how it'll work. Like maybe the next time, the other person will pay. Or they can choose to split the bill from then on. If it's too difficult to compromise and/or one person is unhappy with the situation, then that may mean that the relationship will not work out.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

Skeletra said:


> ^ Because you're very old fashioned and she's not.
> 
> For me the old fashioned method is more like:
> Man asks woman on date, woman plays hard to get but accepts. Man has to convince woman to get a second date. Gender roles are enforced. Man finds place and activity for the date and acts as the provider. Ideally man should also open doors and hold chairs and all that.
> ...


It makes no sense to me that some stranger could walk up to you and ask you out and you're so interested in him from that brief conversation that you would want to help plan out a date and try to impress him as well. As I see it the girl being asked out has no idea if this guy is worth it and should say no to going out with him because it's a waste of time and money.


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## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

Guys: Just don't date. They can't get you


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Skeletra said:


> ^ Because you're very old fashioned and she's not.
> 
> For me the old fashioned method is more like:
> Man asks woman on date, woman plays hard to get but accepts. Man has to convince woman to get a second date. Gender roles are enforced. Man finds place and activity for the date and acts as the provider. Ideally man should also open doors and hold chairs and all that.
> ...


 I would not say chivarly is dead. I dont complain if a door is held open for me. The chair thing is weird but i think its a show of respect on their behalf. On that note Iiiii also have no problem holding doors open for whoever. Although I do have dudes gimme a weird look when i hold the door walking into a store (well i was first and im kind, so wth)

And its not that im not old fashioned its that the economy isn't old fashioned. We both work, we both have bills have to pay, not everyone has extra money to play with like that. The phone thing is weird ...I would leave it in the car.


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## Cyclonic (Oct 25, 2012)

I would be willing to pay for the whole date, but only because I *wanted* to...not because of some perceived gender role/social obligation. I think this should be done regardless of gender too, I think it's great that a couple would want to alternate who pays.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we past the era where it's only the men chasing the women?

Edit: I'm also moving this to Relationships since this is more of a controversial discussion


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## Therin (Aug 12, 2014)

Wait, what? Being nice is being nice, but people should not expect other people to pay for them. I would feel so strange not paying, especially on the first date!

This tradition is silly and whenever I think about it, I think of like the 50s when women did not work/ men did everything for them. Kill the patriarchy!


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

Waifu said:


> It makes no sense to me that some stranger could walk up to you and ask you out and you're so interested in him from that brief conversation that you would want to help plan out a date and try to impress him as well. As I see it the girl being asked out has no idea if this guy is worth it and should say no to going out with him because it's a waste of time and money.


You are assuming that you are only going to meet up with some guy at bar who you have barely said two words too a lot of people get together from social groups they are part of, work, online dating so he is not just some stranger trying prove his worth you should have established that before accepting the date.

So you are not going to ask a guy out even if the right one came along you ever thought that maybe you are missing some opportunities not every guy is going to go out thinking he should ask someone on a date.

To be perfectly honest Icy Tulips has probably got the best idea but there always has to compromise on both sides if the girl wants to do something more expensive and the guy cant afford then they should do something else or the girl should contribute instead of having a spoilt brat attitude end of the day you wouldnt go through married life with that kind behaviour.

And Purechaos I agree chivalry isnt dead but it all depends on the person some girls are like yourself in regards to paying some guys are like me and are quite happy to hold the door open or give up a jacket if its cold.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Therin said:


> Wait, what? Being nice is being nice, but people should not expect other people to pay for them. I would feel so strange not paying, especially on the first date!
> 
> This tradition is silly and whenever I think about it, I think of like the 50s when women did not work/ men did everything for them. Kill the patriarchy!


 Lol! What?


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

Madax said:


> I would be willing to pay for the whole date, but only because I *wanted* to...not because of some perceived gender role/social obligation. I think this should be done regardless of gender too, I think it's great that a couple would want to alternate who pays.
> 
> And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we past the era where it's only the men chasing the women?
> 
> Edit: I'm also moving this to Relationships since this is more of a controversial discussion





Therin said:


> Wait, what? Being nice is being nice, but people should not expect other people to pay for them. I would feel so strange not paying, especially on the first date!
> 
> This tradition is silly and whenever I think about it, I think of like the 50s when women did not work/ men did everything for them. Kill the patriarchy!


Agree with both of you yes offering to pay for a date is a good thing to do its like buying your wife flowers Friday evening after work but that doesnt mean I am obligated to do it or it should be expected of me especially if it has the potential to be an expensive day a quick date at a bar or coffee shop is one thing but if it leads to an day thing where you might go to gigs, a restaurant even a hotel im sorry but if you are interested enough in a guy to spend all that time with can you justify him paying for everything all day if you can then well that would simply tell me what kind of person you are.

I am all for gender/race equality but it works both ways you cant say I want equal pay in the work place but I quite like the man paying for everything despite your equal pay.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Waifu said:


> It makes no sense to me that some stranger could walk up to you and ask you out and you're so interested in him from that brief conversation that you would want to help plan out a date and try to impress him as well. As I see it the girl being asked out has no idea if this guy is worth it and should say no to going out with him because it's a waste of time and money.


Everything you write gives the impression that you view yourself as superior to men who are inferior, in your mind. You say THEY need to win YOU over, that YOU are giving THEM a chance.

Ever consider the opposite?

Some women do plan out dates and make various efforts to impress a guy. And guys, sick of bad attitudes & condescension like yours, are impressed by it. Any woman who takes initiative and thinks of herself as being on an equal level with men will make them very happy. You seem to think such things are beneath you or ridiculous.

I've developed a term for this phenomenon - PEC, Princess Entitlement Complex. It involves delusional feelings of superiority and erroneous beliefs that one is owed much more than they would give -the most of which involves deigning to respond, and that such things should not be questioned, similar to divine right to rule concept of royalty. Recommended treatment is 50ccs of a dose of reality, and to be knocked off ones high horse.


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> Everything you write gives the impression that you view yourself as superior to men who are inferior, in your mind. You say THEY need to win YOU over, that YOU are giving THEM a chance.
> 
> Ever consider the opposite?
> 
> ...


hahaha cookie for you sir


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## Szeth (Jul 5, 2014)

Icy Tulips said:


> The person who does the asking should be prepared to pay for everything. (Note that I say _prepared_. The other person may insist on paying for their share.) _Unless_ that other person makes a suggestion to go somewhere afterward. In that case, they should be willing to foot the bill. A date is not like meeting up with your friends, so it's not even a comparison in my view. It doesn't have to be expensive. If you can't afford to pay for your half and the other person's half at a certain place, then don't go. You'd have to have a lot of nerve to have them pay when you asked them to go somewhere with you in the first place. It's a date. If you liked them enough, then you should be treating them and it shouldn't be a problem. It's as simple as that from my perspective.
> 
> Beyond the first date, I think it should be discussed by both people how it'll work. Like maybe the next time, the other person will pay. Or they can choose to split the bill from then on. If it's too difficult to compromise and/or one person is unhappy with the situation, then that may mean that the relationship will not work out.


Yes, this is exactly how I feel. I wouldn't have thought it would be such a big deal to buy a person dinner or to have someone buy you dinner, I think maybe people are over thinking it a bit. I've treated and been treated and never felt like I was being taken advantage of or felt uncomfortable about someone buying me dinner.


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## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

inane said:


> It depends on the nature of the outing and who you're going with, obviously. My friends and I split the bill when we go out usually, but we are close and value each other enough that we _want _to treat each other. My best friend has pushed me out of the way to pay for my ice cream, and I've told a cashier to charge a top I'm buying twice and not my friend's (we were buying identical tops)... *It's just a nice thing to do*. It's not mandatory. Feel free to be stingy, it's no one's business but yours... but I prefer what me and my friends have, and I think it's the more pleasant social custom.


See, this I can understand. I know my friends and I wouldn't mind buying them dinner once in a while, because I like them. Buying a relative stranger dinner, when you're not even sure if you like them has never made sense to me.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> Everything you write gives the impression that you view yourself as superior to men who are inferior, in your mind. You say THEY need to win YOU over, that YOU are giving THEM a chance.
> 
> Ever consider the opposite?
> 
> ...


They do have to win me over and I am giving them a chance to do so but I never said that made them inferior that is you adding to what I said. We can be equal but different and there's a pretty clear biological reason for why this is the way things are. Guys are attracted to women first and foremost based on how they look so a guy can see a woman and be attracted to her and go want to hit on her and ask her out but girls are not that interested in guys looks so it takes longer for us to decide if we like a guy and want to go out with him. So yes the first date is the guy attempting to persuade or audition for a role in the girl's life and that's why it would be ridiculous to make the girl pay for his chance.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

^^ Sounds like a disastrous date.


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## Cenarius (Aug 2, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> lmao





AussiePea said:


> ^^ Sounds like a disastrous date.


Reminds me of Big Bang Theory when Raj and that chick sat and texted each other their whole date.


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## Perkins (Dec 14, 2010)

It's not a deal breaker to me. I really have no problem paying provided I actually have the money to pay for it. Which I currently don't.


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## Jammer25 (Feb 22, 2014)

Not sure if people expanded on this since, but someone a few pages back put forth a situation where a woman suggests going somewhere else once the date starts.

I think, at that point, she should be expected to foot her share of the bill if we go where she wants instead of where I planned to go.

Else, it's a whole other opportunity for women to abuse social convention if they can suggest an expensive activity out of the blue and have guys go along with it. And if he doesn't, he's cheap or uninterested. (At that point, if she was insistent I probably wouldn't continue on the date myself. It's misleading and underhanded, and I wouldn't care if she saw me as cheap or whatnot.)


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## Nylea (Aug 7, 2014)

AussiePea said:


> The point of who asked out who I think is quite a valid one too. In the cases of what I mentioned in my previous post, the two who paid were the ones who approached me, so I didn't really think of it that way previously but it very much could have been their reasoning for acting as they did.


This is exactly where I stand on it. Whoever asks the other person out for the first time should probably pay, since it was his or her offer. Then, past the first date, I feel as if the man and woman should split the bill.

Also, maybe some accommodations could be made if one person couldn't afford a date, but the other person still wanted to go out.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Waifu said:


> They do have to win me over and I am giving them a chance to do so but I never said that made them inferior that is you adding to what I said. We can be equal but different and there's a pretty clear biological reason for why this is the way things are. Guys are attracted to women first and foremost based on how they look so a guy can see a woman and be attracted to her and go want to hit on her and ask her out but girls are not that interested in guys looks so it takes longer for us to decide if we like a guy and want to go out with him. So yes the first date is the guy attempting to persuade or audition for a role in the girl's life and that's why it would be ridiculous to make the girl pay for his chance.


I don't know where you're from, but here in America dating is almost all about looks, for men and for women. Girls are not that interested in guys looks you say... I don't know where the in the world or for what tiny percent of the population that is true.

And do you not see how your view of the dating process puts you, the woman in complete power and makes the man a beggar? And you think if the guy asked you out he's 100% into you and you don't have to do anything to win him over besides show up?

Consider another perspective - the guy asked you on a date to learn more about you and isn't completely sold on whether they like you or not. You should both be auditioning for each other, not a one sided thing. It's your chance with him too.


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## Julia555 (Aug 1, 2014)

I think whoever does the asking should also do the paying. It's kind of rude to invite someone out to dinner or whatever event and expect them to pay. If you don't have a lot of money, don't choose an expensive dinner. Just ask someone out for coffee instead. Be specific about what you want to do when you ask them out so they don't pick an expensive restaurant that you can't afford to pay the whole bill on.

Of course, that being said, I have offered to pay my half on just about every first date I've ever been on and no guy has ever allowed me to.


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## 9090 (Feb 24, 2014)

this has GOT to be an american thing. I literally had never heard of "the man pays" until found the internet. In NZ, (especially if under 25), there is seemingly no custom around this. I would personally attempt to pay, but would joke with the girl about her not paying. Anyone who was uptight about that would get crossed off my list (not that it is very long ).


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## 9090 (Feb 24, 2014)

btw I do love a good gender war. :duel


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## Skeletra (Aug 30, 2012)

mjkittredge said:


> Consider another perspective - the guy asked you on a date to learn more about you and isn't completely sold on whether they like you or not. You should both be auditioning for each other, not a one sided thing. It's your chance with him too.


Agreed 100%.
It's not just a one sided thing.



> I've developed a term for this phenomenon - PEC, Princess Entitlement Complex. It involves delusional feelings of superiority and erroneous beliefs that one is owed much more than they would give -the most of which involves deigning to respond, and that such things should not be questioned, similar to divine right to rule concept of royalty. Recommended treatment is 50ccs of a dose of reality, and to be knocked off ones high horse.


Yep. I used to call that the Dainty Princess personality, but yours is better.



> I would not say chivarly is dead. I don't complain if a door is held open for me. The chair thing is weird but i think its a show of respect on their behalf.


Personally I'd get a little offended if a guy does the chair thing. Do I look so weak and fragile or co-dependent that I can't even move a chair? I get why, but still makes me feel a bit like I'm being handled with extra care.


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

Skeletra said:


> Agreed 100%.
> It's not just a one sided thing.
> 
> Yep. I used to call that the Dainty Princess personality, but yours is better.
> ...


Agree with mjkittredge relationships arent one sided maybe the guy asked you out, maybe he will pay because it is the decent thing to do but the girl is obviously interested too otherwise she wouldnt agree and which guy is more likely to come back for a second date one where the girl makes an effort with the guy too or one where the girl sits there and expects everything done for her because I certainly wouldnt staying in touch with someone who thinks I should feel privledged to have her accept and therefore is entitled to do nothing other than arrive for the date.

Hmm never done the chair thing I think it is a bit overkill I would feel like a butler or something but I suppose it depends on the setting too if it was a formal date at an expensive restaurant I wouldnt want to be sat there saying to a girl "thanks for coming pull up a chair for yourself"


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> Consider another perspective - *the guy asked you on a date to learn more about you and isn't completely sold on whether they like you or not.* You should both be auditioning for each other, not a one sided thing. It's your chance with him too.


I'm sure he's not completely sold on me but he is interested in me while I'm not interested in him at all. If he succeeds on the first date to get my interest and we continue dating then we'd evaluate each other and it would be less one sided. So we can split the split on the rest of the dates. Date #1 though is his audition to persuade me.


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## Skeletra (Aug 30, 2012)

Waifu said:


> I'm sure he's not completely sold on me but he is interested in me *while I'm not interested in him at all*. If he succeeds on the first date to get my interest and we continue dating then we'd evaluate each other and it would be less one sided. So we can split the split on the rest of the dates. Date #1 though is his audition to persuade me.


Why would you accept a date with someone you're not interested in at all?

In my opinion, accepting a date is like saying "Yes, I am intrigued by your looks or by what I know about your personality. I would like to know more about you."


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

Skeletra said:


> Why would you accept a date with someone you're not interested in at all?
> 
> In my opinion, accepting a date is like saying "Yes, I am intrigued by your looks or by what I know about your personality. I would like to know more about you."


Exactly I am sorry but there is no way on earth would you accept unless you were slightly interested in some aspect either his looks if you meet him in a bar or his personality if its online or a blind date.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

tehuti88 said:


> Perhaps they were raised with this old-fashioned mentality and never thought to question it, since it seems pretty ingrained. Or perhaps they're just cheap. (Some people will make any excuse to avoid having to pay.)


Probably a mix of both.
It's significantly easier to self-justify these things if you benefit from them.
Many men do like feeling they can provide for others and I guess some women do like being spoiled, but having it be expected or indeed a requirement rather takes the fun out of doing nice things for others.



Barette said:


> Because most guys ask for the date, and if you're offering to take someone out to a place you planned, then its polite to treat. I wouldn't ask my friend if she wanted to go for a ride then tell her to pay for gas, i did the inviting so i should expect to pay


You must keep different friends than I do, or maybe Americans just have more cash to splash around.
The times friends have asked me if I wanted to go to the cinema with them, I've always paid for myself. And we have usually taken the bus, where I've also paid for myself.
If they had a car and suggested we take that, then I wouldn't expect to pay for that short a trip, but if we were going to say the German border to buy cheap beer I would expect to pay as that would be a pretty significant expense.

Expecting the person asking out to always pay, I have to feel bad for the lonely 'friend' whom people will only do things with when he/she is paying for it.
It's very open to exploitation.



Persephone The Dread said:


> I would not expect (or want) him to pay for me, unless he insisted we go somewhere very expensive that I can't afford.


It's ok to have people pay for you sometimes, but it has to be them offering.
So if they suggest somewhere too expensive, I'd just say it's not really within the range of what I have to spend on dates and then we could either find somewhere else or if they insisted they'd know the situation and could offer to pay.
But with dates, you do have to be careful not ending up in a situation where the other person feels you owe them something, or that they're only spending because they're expecting something later that you might be indirectly committing to.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Because most of them want a sugar daddy who is going to shower them with attention, gifts, and financial success for a few years until they find someone else better. There are many many women who have made a good life by simply marrying a new rich guy every 5 years and divorcing him. Where else can you get half of someone's retirement and wealth so easily?


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## mezzoforte (May 16, 2010)

tbyrfan said:


> *Social convention.* Most girls assume that the guy isn't interested if he doesn't pay because pretty much everyone knows that guys are expected to pay on the first date. Someone who isn't following social conventions is going to be seen as unusual or uninterested - that's just the way it is.


I'm pretty sure this is the reason most of the time. I had actually never heard of guys being averse to paying on dates, until I joined this site. I thought it was really common for the guy to pay and that most guys would insist on paying to conform to social convention. Maybe that was just me being naive about the dating world, but I thought other people grew up learning the same thing.

And before anyone jumps on my back - No, I don't think it's fair that one person should always be expected to pay and no, I wouldn't mind paying and have paid on a date.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

I really don't have a problem paying on dates. I think the thing that gets to me is if she just expects me to (especially every time) and is a requirement on a checklist or something. When I dated in the past I did pay most times and I was okay with that but the girl also chipped in too which I thought was cool. 

Like I paid for the movie tickets, and then she suggested we go to this restaurant and I was going to get the check but she literally grabbed it before I did and paid it. That really left a good impression on me. But on the first date, when she asked me out, she literally said that she left her purse in the car so I paid it. We had a good conversation and I liked her and I didn't get upset about it.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

I think its very outdated, 30 years ago men made quite a lot more and it made sense for them to pay since they were the one most likely to be able to afford it. If a woman insists on it now, it is more of a sign that she is unrealistic and going to demand a lot of things that will put a ton of stress on the relationship.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Milco said:


> It's ok to have people pay for you sometimes, but it has to be them offering.
> So if they suggest somewhere too expensive, I'd just say it's not really within the range of what I have to spend on dates and then we could either find somewhere else or if they insisted they'd know the situation and could offer to pay.
> But with dates, you do have to be careful not ending up in a situation where the other person feels you owe them something, or that they're only spending because they're expecting something later that you might be indirectly committing to.


I just think it's way easier if both people pay for themselves until you get to know each other more tbh.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I just think it's way easier if both people pay for themselves until you get to know each other more tbh.


That would get expensive pretty quick if you had to pay half of the date every time a guy asked you out.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Waifu said:


> That would get expensive pretty quick if you had to pay half of the date every time a guy asked you out.


So the guy should pay for the pleasure of your company then? If he asks would you tell him you can't pay cuz you got 35 other dates to go on lined up after he's done?


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

knightofdespair said:


> So the guy should pay for the pleasure of your company then? If he asks would you tell him you can't pay cuz you got 35 other dates to go on lined up after he's done?


Why would he ask? He should just assume that's the case that if he finds me attractive and wants to ask me out then probably a lot of other guys do too.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Waifu said:


> Why would he ask? He should just assume that's the case that if he finds me attractive and wants to ask me out then probably a lot of other guys do too.


Well if that's the reason I guess like most of the guys here my first reaction is to just not bother. Why waste time like a chump on someone who isn't equally interested or vested in the date?


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

knightofdespair said:


> Well if that's the reason I guess like most of the guys here my first reaction is to just not bother. Why waste time like a chump on someone who isn't equally interested or vested in the date?


You don't have to of course. No one's forcing you to ask girls out and you could just stay single. It's really up to you whether you want a girlfriend bad enough to try.


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## mezzoforte (May 16, 2010)

I like your signature, Waifu. :b


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

mezzoforte said:


> I like your signature, Waifu. :b


Everyone was so mean to me the other day.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Waifu said:


> You don't have to of course. No one's forcing you to ask girls out and you could just stay single. It's really up to you whether you want a girlfriend bad enough to try.


When I was younger maybe I would be that desperate, but now I'm more like meh, I can have a lot of fun by myself. To me SA means I'm not going to beg and grovel and make some kind of fool of myself for some woman with a line of other guys already doing that. Its demeaning.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

knightofdespair said:


> When I was younger maybe I would be that desperate, but now I'm more like meh, I can have a lot of fun by myself. To me SA means I'm not going to beg and grovel and make some kind of fool of myself for some woman with a line of other guys already doing that. Its demeaning.


I don't see it as demeaning and if the girl you're dating does then she's not right for you.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

mezzoforte said:


> I'm pretty sure this is the reason most of the time. I had actually never heard of guys being averse to paying on dates, until I joined this site. I thought it was really common for the guy to pay and that most guys would insist on paying to conform to social convention. Maybe that was just me being naive about the dating world, but I thought other people grew up learning the same thing.
> 
> And before anyone jumps on my back - No, I don't think it's fair that one person should always be expected to pay and no, I wouldn't mind paying and have paid on a date.


I used to believe this too. It was just what I had to do, pay to play. Buy my ticket for a chance at the date-a-girl lottery. But I soured on this social convention after a number of expensive dates that didn't transition to second dates or relationships.

I basically paid girls to reject me. And that's a s****y feeling.

So no more of that. Low or no cost date to start things off. If you like me, THEN and only then will I take you out somewhere nice and it's my treat. If you don't like me or aren't sure yet, you don't get free stuff. I'm not running a cute girl charity here.

Over the centuries, brave women have stood up and defied social conventions that benefited men at their expense. It's time men did so as well. But the siren song of potential boom boom is very strong. If we feel blowing money increases our chances of being blown we will do it. Anything to get an advantage in this hyper competitive society.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I still don't understand why some people think guys should pay for the first couple of dates and then not later. Like I get why you'd not want them to have to pay at all, or the complete opposite. I get that these are different view points. 

I also understand the 'the person who asks should pay' mentality even though I don't agree.

I just don't really get the logic of one party having to pay only during the first few dates when you don't know if you like each other that much/don't know each other well. 

It seriously just seems like the guy is buying your affection that way. I can't see another way of looking at it.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I still don't understand why some people think guys should pay for the first couple of dates and then not later. Like I get why you'd not want them to have to pay at all, or the complete opposite. I get that these are different view points.
> 
> I also understand the 'the person who asks should pay' mentality even though I don't agree.
> 
> ...


It's not buying her affection it's buying his chance to persuade her. She's giving the guy a chance to impress her and it would be weird for her to have to pay for his chance. Think of it like American Idol and how you have to drive yourself to the first audition but then after you impress the judges you get a free trip to hollywood.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Waifu said:


> It's not buying her affection it's buying his chance to persuade her. She's giving the guy a chance to impress her and it would be weird for her to have to pay for his chance. Think of it like American Idol and how you have to drive yourself to the first audition but then after you impress the judges you get a free trip to hollywood.


Would you pay for a guy if you asked him out on a date then? To impress him?

Also I don't think dating should be about impressing the other person personally. You're supposed to be getting to know each other better, not their stage act.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Waifu said:


> Everyone was so mean to me the other day.


Perhaps because everything you write demonstrates a massive vortex of self-indulgent, narcissistic over-entitlement and condescension. If your beliefs are representative of even a small percentage of women out there, the world should shudder in collective horror.

You think it's right for men to bow down to you and hand over their wallet to start things off. You better be beautiful and have a lot to offer in order to maintain such a ridiculous, outrageous expectation. What is so great about you to justify your belief you are owed a mans paycheck on the first date? He guarantees you his money, you guarantee him NOTHING. I'm really curious to know how you can be so selfish and full of yourself. And how any man could possibly want anything to do with you after detecting such things. :no

It's like you're devoid of all modesty and never heard the word humble.

"I showed up, gimme gimme gimme! NOWWWWWW!!!!" I'm going to hurt my forehead from face-palming so much. Men, stop encouraging this behavior. If we boycott women like this, they'll either have to change or resign themselves to a life alone. if we allow it, more and more jump onto the free-stuff gravy train, where they accept the date even knowing they have no interest, just to use us. I have more respect for hookers, at least they are honest that it's a transaction and don't pretend it might turn into something more.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Would you pay for a guy if you asked him out on a date then? To impress him?


If biology worked that way then sure but I can't see that situation ever happening since I'll never be interested in a guy at first sight like guys can be for girls.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Waifu said:


> If *biology *worked that way then sure but I can't see that situation ever happening since I'll never be interested in a guy at first sight like guys can be for girls.


Most women can become interested based on appearance as well. But OK, that's how you feel.

I don't think most dates start as cold approaches like you seem to be suggesting. Usually someone asks out an acquaintance. Or if online dating, finds out a bit about them before hand through their profile etc, so they know if they are interested. Then they go on the date to see if they're still interested.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Most women can become interested based on appearance as well. But OK, that's how you feel.
> 
> I don't think most dates start as cold approaches like you seem to be suggesting. Usually someone asks out an acquaintance. Or if online dating, finds out a bit about them before hand through their profile etc, so they know if they are interested. Then they go on the date to see if they're still interested.


Depends how close an acquaintance. I'm not just picturing cold approaches but also friend of a friend or class mate or coworker. Someone who you have interacted with but not enough to get a sense of how interested you are in them.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Are you from China or something? Is there a severe lack of women which enables them to be super demanding?


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> Are you from China or something? Is there a severe lack of women which enables them to be super demanding?


It's not demanding because I'm getting nothing out of it. He's not giving me money or giving me anything. We're just on a date.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> I'm sure he's not completely sold on me but he is interested in me while I'm not interested in him at all. If he succeeds on the first date to get my interest and we continue dating then we'd evaluate each other and it would be less one sided. So we can split the split on the rest of the dates. Date #1 though is his audition to persuade me.


 The only reason I have a problem with this is the word "persuade." If a guy feels the need to "persuade" you into liking him, at that point it becomes a fake date and probably more bribary. Because in truth (to me anyway) dating is finding that "spark" between two people. Not an actor "auditioning" for a leading role in your movie. 


Waifu said:


> That would get expensive pretty quick if you had to pay half of the date every time a guy asked you out.


 That would get pretty expensive if you had to pay for the WHOLE date everytime. Not dissing you for not splitting but you seem to not insert feet into anothers shoes. 


Waifu said:


> It's not demanding because I'm getting nothing out of it. He's not giving me money or giving me anything. We're just on a date.


 If hes paying you're getting a free dinner, movie, and whatever else. I imagine you at least appreciate it and say thank you, yes? even if you end up uninterested?


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> Perhaps because everything you write demonstrates a massive vortex of self-indulgent, narcissistic over-entitlement and condescension. If your beliefs are representative of even a small percentage of women out there, the world should shudder in collective horror.
> 
> You think it's right for men to bow down to you and hand over their wallet to start things off. You better be beautiful and have a lot to offer in order to maintain such a ridiculous, outrageous expectation. What is so great about you to justify your belief you are owed a mans paycheck on the first date? He guarantees you his money, you guarantee him NOTHING. I'm really curious to know how you can be so selfish and full of yourself. And how any man could possibly want anything to do with you after detecting such things. :no
> 
> ...


I lol'd


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## Laith (Mar 20, 2009)

I never pay for anything during the first date. I started that rule years ago, for several reasons. 

We either did something that didn't require money or if it was coffee or smoothies or something, we paid separately. I never did the whole lunch/dinner thing.

didnt have a problem getting 2nd 3rd etc dates either. not with all of them of course. some lost interest, but they prolly woulda lost interest even if i had paid 50$ on dinner...yamm sayyyin?


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## Putin (May 21, 2013)

I wouldn't mind paying for a 1st date, as long as it was inexpensive. Like, $20 or under.


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## ImmortalxApathy (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm old fashioned and I think that the guy should help pay for the date, if not all of it. I always will split it 50/50 and hope that the other would agree to that at least.


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## AndrewUK83 (May 27, 2014)

I am all for paying for dates but I dont see why I should pay for a day at a theme park or zoo which girls seem to think is an ideal first date now so she can have fun leave me £100 worse off and then decide "Sorry youre not for me but we can still be friends" 

Sorry it aint gonna happen but anyone who "expects" something should "expect" to not hear from me again I have far more respect for any person who at least makes the offer of contributing and if they arent prepared to pay towards an expensive date dont "expect" one

You will find in life the people who can afford and are willing to throw the cash around arent the most generous people and are usually doing it as a fast track to someones undies coming off so dont expect them to stick around the most generous are those that give up a small amount when really they cant afford it.

To all those stating a guy should pay on the first date that is fair enough I am sure most guys will agree but what most of us will say is lower your level as to what a first date can involve and cost.


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## Alas Babylon (Aug 28, 2012)

As far as paying for dates goes, normally for me it's just something relaxed and not too expensive, like coffee. So it isn't something I think deeply about.

Still, I'd find it a bit strange and sort of petty if a girl or guy refused to at least offer to go half, and pay about 3.50 for their own coffee. It would be a red flag to me if they gripe over stuff like that.



Waifu said:


> If* biology* worked that way then sure but I can't see that situation ever happening since I'll never be interested in a guy at first sight like guys can be for girls.


"biology"

I'm not sure what high school you went to, but that isn't biology, that's gender roles. And some archaic ones at that.

Not to mention, it's a bit dodgy to act like how you're attracted to people is the same for most people. Quite a lot of girls like how guys look straight away, and a ton of guys need more than appearances before they start liking a girl.

Not to mention that girls ask out guys all the time. I'm beginning to think I live in a parallel universe to SAS, as if I'm the only person here who lives in an area where people, of any gender, ask out other people, of any gender.



> The only reason I have a problem with this is the word "persuade." If a guy feels the need to "persuade" you into liking him, at that point it becomes a fake date and probably more bribary. Because in truth (to me anyway) dating is finding that "spark" between two people. Not an actor "auditioning" for a leading role in your movie.


Really good point.


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## Cyclonic (Oct 25, 2012)

Alas Babylon said:


> I'm beginning to think I live in a parallel universe to SAS


Parallel universe indeed!

I always figured that two people who are mutually interested in each other went on dates, guess not.


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## pete24 (Oct 13, 2010)

"Most" ??

I have never heard of that being a thing. Been on over 30 dates and every single 1 of them were where we paid equal amounts. There were no discussions about who pays what. If I paid for 1 round of drinks, they would insist paying for the next.


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## Evo1114 (Dec 9, 2012)

Geez. How does this thread have so many pages? 

Whenever I've been on a date, EVERY single girl has requested we split or seems genuinely surprised/very much appreciative if I offer to pay. I have never once dated somebody who expected it. Maybe its where I live, who i prefer dating though.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Evo1114 said:


> Geez. How does this thread have so many pages?
> 
> Whenever I've been on a date, EVERY single girl has requested we split or seems genuinely surprised/very much appreciative if I offer to pay. I have never once dated somebody who expected it. Maybe its where I live, who i prefer dating though.


Half this thread is people arguing with princess Waifu and her severely warped ideas about dating


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> Half this thread is people arguing with princess Waifu and her severely warped ideas about dating


Yes I am a princess. I'm glad you know that.


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## Peter Attis (Aug 31, 2009)

If you asked her out, you should pay.

If she asked you out, it's different.


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## Vallarfax (Jul 31, 2014)

Peter Attis said:


> If you asked her out, you should pay.
> 
> If she asked you out, it's different.


lol


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## Peter Attis (Aug 31, 2009)

Vallarfax said:


> lol


lolwut?


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## Vallarfax (Jul 31, 2014)

Peter Attis said:


> lolwut?


It's funny because it's kind of true?


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

This thread makes me sad that so many girls don't realize their self-worth. Girls listen to me! You don't have to pay for the date.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

Because everyone likes free stuff.


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## Vallarfax (Jul 31, 2014)

Waifu said:


> This thread makes me sad that so many girls don't realize their self-worth. Girls listen to me! You don't have to pay for the date.


A woman splitting the bill on a date in no way means that they don't realize their self worth. And what a guy spends on their date doesn't determine their "value" either. But if they did I'm sure you'd have McDonald's dollar menu memorized in no time.


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## momentsunset (Nov 10, 2009)

I don't really know. I paid for my boyfriend when we were on our first date because I knew he was broke, it didn't bother me at all.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Waifu said:


> This thread makes me sad that so many girls don't realize their self-worth. Girls listen to me! You don't have to pay for the date.


This thread makes me sad that archaic attitudes like yours still exist. Nice attempt to brainwash other women into the cult of "Gimme Gimme!"

Men, don't let women use you to get free stuff. Make sure they are interested in you as a person before you become too generous.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Waifu said:


> This thread makes me sad that so many girls don't realize their self-worth. Girls listen to me! You don't have to pay for the date.


Your attitude is part of what's wrong with gender roles in society. Just stop.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> This thread makes me sad that archaic attitudes like yours still exist. Nice attempt to brainwash other women into the cult of "Gimme Gimme!"
> 
> Men, don't let women use you to get free stuff. Make sure they are interested in you as a person before you become too generous.


When you go to a job interview do you walk in and hand the interviewer the receipt from putting gas in your car and ask for a reimbursement for half your gas? No? So why would you give the girl the bill and ask for reimbursement on half of it?


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> This thread makes me sad that so many girls don't realize their self-worth. Girls listen to me! You don't have to pay for the date.


 You act like paying for half or a quarter of a date is paying for the whole date, why?

Self worth is knowing I dont "have" to do anything but its also recognizing that I "can" do things.

I also recognize the worth of a person sitting across from me. Money has no bearing on ones soul. 


Waifu said:


> When you go to a job interview do you walk in and hand the interviewer the receipt from putting gas in your car and ask for a reimbursement for half your gas? No? So why would you give the girl the bill and ask for reimbursement on half of it?


 Why are you comparing dating to a job interview?

Btw you can claim "job search" expenses on your taxes. (In the U.S.)


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## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

diamondheart89 said:


> Because everyone likes free stuff.


This thread is a nutshell. :yes


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Waifu said:


> When you go to a job interview do you walk in and hand the interviewer the receipt from putting gas in your car and ask for a reimbursement for half your gas? No? So why would you give the girl the bill and ask for reimbursement on half of it?


Apples to orangutangs comparison there.

Job interview =/= date.

A job interview I'm not asking for an equal partnership. I'm not trying to learn about their personality to see if they are a good fit for me. I'm asking to be their slave for a small amount of money.

On a date I don't ask for gas money. I expect them to offer to pay for half of whatever we came to do, meal or activity, because I see them as an equal and want an equal partnership, not a one sided thing where they are above me and in position to make demands that I spend on them. I'm not going into some girl raffle where I buy a ticket and hope to win them.

Women aren't superior to men. Men aren't superior to women. Neither person should start things off by expecting to get more than they offer.

You say demanding guys pay for everything is biology? No, it's selfishness and greed. Used to be men selected women they wanted like they were livestock. "I'll take a goat and a redhead for 5 crowns." Was that biology? Or just people taking advantage of each other.

Men want to **** women. You're trying to exploit that for free stuff. Typical, but at least admit that is what you're doing. You sure wouldn't like it if the tables were turned. If you liked a guy and he expected you to buy him all kinds of things to try and win him over.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> Apples to orangutangs comparison there.
> 
> Job interview =/= date.
> 
> ...


You're not spending on her or buying things or paying for her. You're paying for *your* date. Why should she pay for *your* date? She doesn't need to eat at that restaurant or see that movie and she's doing it as a favor to you to give you a chance to show her why you're a good match.


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## FBJ (Aug 1, 2014)

If I am expected to pay for a woman it;s easier for her to come to my place so we can order dinner, watch movies and have a light make out session


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## FBJ (Aug 1, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> This thread makes me sad that archaic attitudes like yours still exist. Nice attempt to brainwash other women into the cult of "Gimme Gimme!"
> 
> Men, don't let women use you to get free stuff. Make sure they are interested in you as a person before you become too generous.


I agree with this, if I go out on a 1st date and there is no mutual interest being shown in between the 1st and 2nd date then I am not treating her to anything


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Waifu said:


> You're not spending on her or buying things or paying for her. You're paying for *your* date. Why should she pay for *your* date? She doesn't need to eat at that restaurant or see that movie and she's doing it as a favor to you to give you a chance to show her why you're a good match.


It's not MY date, it's OUR date!

She wouldn't agree to go if she weren't interested in me or the activity. Whether she or I proposed it, there was mutual interest.

It's not a favor from her to me. It's a chance for both of us to impress each other and get to know each other.


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## FBJ (Aug 1, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> It's not MY date, it's OUR date!
> 
> She wouldn't agree to go if she weren't interested in me or the activity. Whether she or I proposed it, there was mutual interest.
> 
> It's not a favor from her to me. It's a chance for both of us to impress each other and get to know each other.


But you see women have that magical something between their legs that gives them the POWER


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

FBJ said:


> But you see women have that magical something between their legs that gives them the POWER


Exactly.

They know you want it. And that you'll cave before they do.

It's like a staring contest between the one eyed snake vs the man in the boat. Snake always loses. So women get to dictate the terms if they choose to do so.


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## FBJ (Aug 1, 2014)

mjkittredge said:


> Exactly.
> 
> They know you want it. And that you'll cave before they do.
> 
> It's like a staring contest between the one eyed snake vs the man in the boat. Snake always loses. So women get to dictate the terms if they choose to do so.


Well I am a different type of guy, I need a woman to bring something more to the table besides a vagina, especially since all women have them lol


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

W A N D E R L U S T said:


> Like others have already said (kind of) depends on how they were raised I guess.
> 
> I'm not average. I'm above average. Don't be jealous of her just because she wears a pink tutu better, your time will come one day. Just not today.
> 
> P.S Forgot hair extensions and sometimes a spray tan.


If that's what paying for the whole date gets me then I'm splitting the bill. Spray tan? Eugh!


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## FBJ (Aug 1, 2014)

I used to laugh when woman would say........."The guy is paying for my time"


Well if that is the case she can come to my apt LOL


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

FBJ said:


> I used to laugh when woman would say........."The guy is paying for my time"


 That's interesting. Thats like saying he now owns that particular moment. Idiots.

Plus...

I was unaware that someone owns time and that it was up for sale. I guess we are a bunch of space benders then?


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## FBJ (Aug 1, 2014)

purechaos said:


> That's interesting. Thats like saying he now owns that particular moment. Idiots.
> 
> Plus...
> 
> I was unaware that someone owns time and that it was up for sale. I guess we are a bunch of space benders then?


I asked one girl out for coffee and she said

"I am not getting all dressed up and putting on heels to drink some coffee:

LOL


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

FBJ said:


> I asked one girl out for coffee and she said
> 
> "I am not getting all dressed up and putting on heels to drink some coffee:
> 
> LOL


 I was unaware heels were a requirement.


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## FBJ (Aug 1, 2014)

purechaos said:


> I was unaware heels were a requirement.


No woman needs to wear any heels when meeting me for the first time


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

I find it a deal-breaker if they do expect me to.


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## monotonous (Feb 1, 2013)

ok are you hot? so you are not hot and cant even buy her a meal, why the **** would she date you?


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

No one is willing to acknowledge here that you're not paying for her you're paying for yourself. You're paying for your date which is your audition into her life. She's giving you a chance and you're so selfish and demanding that you think she should pay for your chance!? Ridiculous.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> No one is willing to acknowledge here that you're not paying for her you're paying for yourself. You're paying for your date which is your audition into her life. She's giving you a chance and you're so selfish and demanding that you think she should pay for your chance!? Ridiculous.


 it's your chance as well unless you assume you are magical and every guy will have some deep connection with you... I don't think there are any demands here...


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Waifu said:


> No one is willing to acknowledge here that you're not paying for her you're paying for yourself. You're paying for your date which is your audition into her life. She's giving you a chance and you're so selfish and demanding that you think she should pay for your chance!? Ridiculous.


That poor guy.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

AussiePea said:


> That poor guy.


Seriously!


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

purechaos said:


> it's your chance as well unless you assume you are magical and every guy will have some deep connection with you... I don't think there are any demands here...


He has already decided he's interested in me and that's why he's asking me out. Now it's my turn to decide if I'm interested back. I'm not going to pay for his attempt to persuade me to like him.



AussiePea said:


> That poor guy.


Why? Do you really think guys are going broke over $15 dollar meals.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> He has already decided he's interested in me and that's why he's asking me out. Now it's my turn to decide if I'm interested back. I'm not going to pay for his attempt to persuade me to like him.
> 
> Why? Do you really think guys are going broke over $15 dollar meals.


 why are you assuming his interest in you won't fade during this date?


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

purechaos said:


> why are you assuming his interest in you won't fade during this date?


It might but why does that affect who pays? It's still him trying to convince me.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

purechaos said:


> why are you assuming his interest in you won't fade during this date?


Again think about the job interview analogy. The job-seeker comes interested in the job and during the interview he might learn things that make him no longer want the job. Even if that happens though he still has pay for his own travel to get to the interview. He can't show up and hand the interviewer his gas bill just because he might change his mind.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> It might but why does that affect who pays? It's still him trying to convince me.


 I'm kind of off the whole paying thing. I'm more mesmerized by narcissism at this point.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Waifu said:


> Again think about the job interview analogy. The job-seeker comes interested in the job and during the interview he might learn things that make him no longer want the job. Even if that happens though he still has pay for his own travel to get to the interview. He can't show up and hand the interviewer his gas bill just because he might change his mind.


What are your thoughts on a situation where the girls asks the guy out on a date?


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

AussiePea said:


> What are your thoughts on a situation where the girls asks the guy out on a date?


I answered that already. I think it would be the same with the genders flipped. I just don't ever see myself asking a guy out because I'll never be interested in a guy I just met and I think that's true of most women.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Waifu said:


> I answered that already. I think it would be the same with the genders flipped. I just don't ever see myself asking a guy out because I'll never be interested in a guy I just met and I think that's true of most women.


Well that doesn't answer the question. Why is it the same? Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

AussiePea said:


> Well that doesn't answer the question. Why is it the same? Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


What? I didn't say it was the same I said it was the same but with the genders flipped. I'm saying the asker is auditioning for a role in the askee's life and it would be ridiculous for the askee to pay for that.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Waifu said:


> What? I didn't say it was the same I said it was the same but with the genders flipped. I'm saying the asker is auditioning for a role in the askee's life and it would be ridiculous for the askee to pay for that.


I see, I see. *ponders*


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

AussiePea said:


> I see, I see. *ponders*


There's subtext to every conversation so when a guy asks me out what he's saying is "let's go out" but what he's really saying is "I like you so will you please give the opportunity to prove myself to you so we might become lovers one day"" but what you guys want to do is make it "I like you so can you pay for half a dinner for me?"


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> There's subtext to every conversation so when a guy asks me out what he's saying is "let's go out" but what he's really saying is "I like you so will you please give the opportunity to prove myself to you so we might become lovers one day"" but what you guys want to do is make it "I like you so can you pay for half a dinner for me?"


 eh, I get the assumption based on ask and askee. I don't like your other bit about proving oneself. To me it's more like "I find you intriguing and would like to get to know you better to see if we are compatible"


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

purechaos said:


> eh, I get the assumption based on ask and askee. I don't like your other bit about proving oneself. To me it's more like "*I find you intriguing and would like to get to know you better to see if we are compatible*"


That's so one-sided. He likes me and he wants to check me out more to see if he really likes me? What am I getting out of this? If the date is all about him then **** that I'm not wasting my time.


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> That's so one-sided. He likes me and he wants to check me out more to see if he really likes me? What am I getting out of this? If the date is all about him then **** that I'm not wasting my time.


 it's both of you! That's what I'm trying to say! It's not a you or him it's a "we" are getting to know each other.... Lol


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

purechaos said:


> it's both of you! That's what I'm trying to say! It's not a you or him it's a "we" are getting to know each other.... Lol


Yes I agree but the date starts with him having an interest in me and me having no interest in him. He has to persuade me and prove himself to get me equally interested and that's the first date. After that from date 2 all the way to getting engaged it's both of us getting to know each other.


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## FBJ (Aug 1, 2014)

Waifu said:


> Yes I agree but the date starts with him having an interest in me and me having no interest in him. He has to persuade me and prove himself to get me equally interested and that's the first date. After that from date 2 all the way to getting engaged it's both of us getting to know each other.


Is that because you have a vagina?


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## purechaos (Dec 18, 2013)

Waifu said:


> Yes I agree but the date starts with him having an interest in me and me having no interest in him. He has to persuade me and prove himself to get me equally interested and that's the first date. After that from date 2 all the way to getting engaged it's both of us getting to know each other.


 if I have zero interest in someone I'm not going on a date with him. Something has to spark my curiosity otherwise im staying home.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

purechaos said:


> if I have zero interest in someone I'm not going on a date with him. Something has to spark my curiosity otherwise im staying home.


Yeah. I don't think most people, at least I hope not, are just agreeing to dates with people they have zero interest in. I mean what would be the point then. There has to be some sort of at least moderate interest- be it looks, personality, etc.


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## EmptyEyes (Aug 25, 2014)

I would never let a guy pay for me. As nice as that would be, I just don't trust anyone I just met enough to feel indebted to them. I'd feel good if he offered though. 

Hahaha, but look at me, acting like I would ever get asked out on a date :lol :cry


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Waifu said:


> I answered that already. I think it would be the same with the genders flipped. I just don't ever see myself asking a guy out because I'll never be interested in a guy I just met and I think that's true of most women.


She's an expert now, she knows about "most women"


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

Waifu said:


> No one is willing to acknowledge here that you're not paying for her you're paying for yourself. You're paying for your date which is your audition into her life. She's giving you a chance and you're so selfish and demanding that you think she should pay for your chance!? Ridiculous.


I will pay for my date, but them having the expectation that I am going to is a black mark in my book. Then again I don't really have a problem with this whole "they're giving me a chance" thing. It's really not how I operate.

I value self-reliance and resourcefulness. They should always plan for multiple realistic contingencies, nor should they "expect" anything to happen, but observe, extrapolate, and roll with the punches. Unless I specifically say, "Don't worry, I'm paying," then it's wrong to assume I'm going to pay if we're out getting coffee.


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## Waifu (Jul 21, 2014)

Sacrieur said:


> I will pay for my date, but them having the expectation that I am going to is a black mark in my book. Then again I don't really have a problem with this whole "they're giving me a chance" thing. It's really not how I operate.
> 
> I value self-reliance and resourcefulness. They should always plan for multiple realistic contingencies, nor should they "expect" anything to happen, but observe, extrapolate, and roll with the punches. Unless I specifically say, "Don't worry, I'm paying," then it's wrong to assume I'm going to pay if we're out getting coffee.


The contingency for a guy saying he's not paying is to "go to the bathroom" and not come back.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

Waifu said:


> The contingency for a guy saying he's not paying is to "go to the bathroom" and not come back.


Girls can do that too.


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