# What kind of "God" would allow so much pain and suffering?



## SocialOutcast1980 (May 12, 2016)

This might be a topic in past discussions on this forum. But I'm still new here and this is a question that I have for everyone. Does anybody just simply blame "God" for what we go through when there is nothing or no one to put this on? I honestly don't know if I believe in creation or evolution. Is the earth flat or is it a spinning ball? I don't think I really care. All I know is that I can never be happy. I'm always miserable due to my situation, much like everybody else here. So I curse to the possible fictitious heaven above when I'm at my lowest point which is pretty much all day every day. Bible thumpers will say that it's the Devil at work and that's why some people get favored their entire lives while others (like us) are constantly being kicked. I don't see it that way. I sometimes think that "God" is responsible for all that is wrong in the world and he/she/it does this on purpose. Maybe I sound like an idiot. But when there is nowhere else to go in my negative train of thought I just simply say to myself "-F- you God for doing this to me and making me the loser that I am!!!" Does anyone else think this way also, or am I the only one?


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## Andres124 (Oct 23, 2012)

You ask a good question friend. People in this world are hurting because of sin and Satan. God gives everyone freewill, you can chose to live a rebellious life of rejecting Christ, or repenting to God. Before I was a Christian I was very miserable and felt sort of depressed in life. Music was my greatest passion, but I still felt empty inside and felt I had no purpose to life. Until one day I picked up a pocket New Testament that I had in my room for years, I started to read it, and it changed my life completely. God touched my heart. The Bible says that no one is good, no, not one. The Bible also says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Romans 3:23 says, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. No one gets to heaven with good works, because your good works cannot save you. No matter how much good we do, we still come short. Because God is good, just, and holy He must punish sin, and that punishment is eternity in hell. You must realize that you are a sinner, and that there is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself. But if you believe that Jesus Christ was crucified, buried, and rose from the dead for you, you will have God's promise, "thou shalt be saved". The moment you do that, you have eternal life.


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## Wildspark (Dec 2, 2013)

I don't think God exists, but if he does he's got to be a sadist. It's the only logical conslusion for why he would allow so many horrible things to happen to people


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## LemonBones (Sep 25, 2015)

The fundamental error is that the God of this world is NOT the Most High God/Creator(s). We are in a fallen state here on earth, we are essentially trapped into matter.


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## The Library of Emma (Mar 3, 2016)

perhaps you could take a look at this link?

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/fai.../how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-suffering

i think it addresses your question in a fairly well-explained way


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## Cyclonic (Oct 25, 2012)

I tend to love the arguments that essentially boil down to universal victim-blaming. Anything bad that happens is collectively our fault, while anything good is credited to God.

Also remember that a supposedly omniscient God failed to foresee Lucifer betraying him, thus bringing evil into the world.

To quote Epicurus



> "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

A god could presumably allow, or in effect, do whatever it wanted. The problem of evil isn't particularly tough for theism, per se, to address so much as it is for cults like Christianity to reconcile with having a good god. Of course anyone that's ever read the bible should conclude that Yahweh is a dick compared to his or her own moral compass. Fortunately, this god is just as indistinguishable from the non existent as any other god or goddess man has ever believed in.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

The god in the bible is actually a huge *******, if you read the things he did, allowed, and condoned. So it's actually not uncharacteristic at all for him to allow suffering.


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## 629753 (Apr 7, 2015)

Andres124 said:


> You ask a good question friend. People in this world are hurting because of sin and Satan. God gives everyone freewill, you can chose to live a rebellious life of rejecting Christ, or repenting to God. Before I was a Christian I was very miserable and felt sort of depressed in life. Music was my greatest passion, but I still felt empty inside and felt I had no purpose to life. Until one day I picked up a pocket New Testament that I had in my room for years, I started to read it, and it changed my life completely. God touched my heart. The Bible says that no one is good, no, not one. The Bible also says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Romans 3:23 says, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. No one gets to heaven with good works, because your good works cannot save you. No matter how much good we do, we still come short. Because God is good, just, and holy He must punish sin, and that punishment is eternity in hell. You must realize that you are a sinner, and that there is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself. But if you believe that Jesus Christ was crucified, buried, and rose from the dead for you, you will have God's promise, "thou shalt be saved". The moment you do that, you have eternal life.


Why I dont believe in bible. Everyone is a sinner, already opressing people by saying that you will never be good enough, that you arent pure, that you arent special, another rope being put in your neck.

You - I had no porpuse in life, I was empty, I read the Book.

Ok, ok, you didnt like your life and situations, soo by picking a book full of lies and storytales, wich say you must obey the Omnipotent God (another one, saying that you are inferior to someone), and beg on your knees for forgiveness for your sins by being alive (bull****) gave you temporarely pleasure (basicly its just like materialism!).

This is why I dont believe in God, or try not to.


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## Andres124 (Oct 23, 2012)

impedido10 said:


> Why I dont believe in bible. Everyone is a sinner, already opressing people by saying that you will never be good enough, that you arent pure, that you arent special, another rope being put in your neck.
> 
> You - I had no porpuse in life, I was empty, I read the Book.
> 
> ...


Friend, believing in God is not materialism. The Bible is not fairytales and there are no lies in it. Prophecy proves it was inspired by God, there are even outside sources that validate it. It seems to me like you have preconceived ideas of The Bible. You mentioned that I said that we aren't special. Everyone is unique in their own way, that's how God designed us, but the Bible does say that no one is good, no, not one [Romans 3:10]. You have broken God's holy law the Ten Commandments, including me. So how can you be a good person, when you've lied, looked with lust, taken God's name in vain, even The Bible says, if you hate another you're a murderer. That's how high God's standard is, which no one has lived up to. You must realize that you are a sinner and their is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself. Your good works will never get you into heaven, no matter how much good we do, we still fall short. That's why The Bible says, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Second you must realize as a sinner, you owe a penalty for breaking God's law. If we pay what we owe, we would spend eternity in hell fire. Third, you must realize that Jesus Christ has paid your penalty by dying on the cross for you. The Bible says, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us [Romans 5:8]. Fourth, you must believe in Jesus Christ alone to save you. If you believe that Jesus Christ was crucified, buried, and rose from the dead for you, you will have God's promise, "Thou shalt be saved". The moment you do that, you will have eternal life.


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## Andres124 (Oct 23, 2012)

Foh_Teej said:


> A god could presumably allow, or in effect, do whatever it wanted. The problem of evil isn't particularly tough for theism, per se, to address so much as it is for cults like Christianity to reconcile with having a good god. Of course anyone that's ever read the bible should conclude that Yahweh is a dick compared to his or her own moral compass. Fortunately, this god is just as indistinguishable from the non existent as any other god or goddess man has ever believed in.


Friend, why are you so hateful towards God? You only say that because of your pride. God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.


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## Aleida (Jun 11, 2013)

Why is this in the agnostic/atheist section? 
The question why god allows suffering is atheist/agnostic? That is something religious to ask. There is lots of suffering in the bible allowed and even promoted by that god.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

I ask the same question myself, but I question my perception if I'm to work "God" into the picture. You can tell yourself that someone is doing this to you or you can be proactive, find out the things, thoughts you're thinking that contribute to this. I'm somewhat taking a Buddhist approach in that there's no active God but that there's a pathway to a higher level. May you work your way up to meeting that standard, opening up your heart despite difficulties. There are lots of comforting things in the Bible if you find yourself in spiritual agony. it may be small spark that starts it, so don't hold off. But don't let spirituality alone heal you. You ironically need a dose of earth/reality as well. I mean might as well as long as we're here, you know.

I'm not sure what I'm saying. Maybe I'm saying, God can only help so much in the fires of hell. (Meaning that's not his dwelling, where he is). On earth, you've got to go upwards to meet this God, a bit like a ladder or again, the eight-fold path to happiness.


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## Overdrive (Sep 19, 2015)

There is no god, it's up to you to get better.


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## SocialOutcast1980 (May 12, 2016)

I know that I probably should have started this thread in another section of this forum. When I posted the question I was feeling very depressed and angry from a terrible day at work. I decided to vent my frustration in the first section that I saw, which I thought involved what I was thinking. I didn't set out to offend anybody. So I apologize to anyone who did take offense. The answer to my own question is that there is no one to blame for the way I always feel. It's not my fault, it's not societies fault, and it certainly is not "Gods" fault. It's very frustrating not knowing why I am socially awkward. So it kind of puts my mind at ease to give blame to someone or something that may or may not even exist. I know how ridiculous I must sound. It wasn't supposed to spark a debated about the existence of God. It really has nothing to do with God in general (I know that doesn't really make a whole ot of sense). I would agree with those reading this who think that I am utterly stupid because it was a dumb question to ask. I also appreciate all those who took the time to post an opinion, religious or non-religious. For the first time ever in my pathetic life, people took interest in a question that I asked, so I thank all of you for participating. I am a lot more familiar with how this website works, so in the future I will be more careful and less random with how I post my thoughts.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> The god in the bible is actually a huge *******, if you read the things he did, allowed, and condoned. So it's actually not uncharacteristic at all for him to allow suffering.


But you conveniently ignore that this God you're referring to, if the Bible is correct, is also the kind of God who would allow himself to be mocked, whipped and crucified for your sins. That's the God in the Bible too, right? And it's also the New Testament or the latest most up-to-date revelation of the nature of God for Christians.

What is love? Love is not the empty happy sentiment people in our society seek. Love is sacrificing yourself for others. That's real love. And the very symbol of Christianity is a symbol of real love. You know...God so loved the world...

What I find especially convincing about Christianity is that the Christian God is not like the other detached descriptions of God you find in Islam, Judaism and other religions. In Christianity God actually loves in the sacrificial sense. God is actually humble in the sense that he allows people to mock him and he allows John the Baptist to baptize him.

It sounds like you're cherry picking the most negative descriptions of God you can find in the Bible and not taking it as a whole and trying to find a view that explains the entire Bible not just the cherry picked parts.
@SocialOutcast1980, I don't have all the answers about suffering but I once felt the way you do. It's only through faith in God that I was saved from the abyss. You need hope in this world. That's just the way it is. I can't prove it to you. Life is not about proofs. It's about what you choose to believe about the world. If you choose to believe life is a meaningless accident then that's your choice. If you choose to believe that your life was intended and it has a purpose then you will have hope and find purpose. You can't find what you don't believe exists.

If Christianity seems too far fetched for you right now then I highly recommend meditation and Zen Buddhism. I know this is a terrible example but it's proof of the incredible power of meditation (prayer and meditation are very similar). This monk set himself on fire as a protest. He did not move. That's the extent of the control he achieved.










Spiritual exercise will make you spiritually stronger such that you can overcome pain and find the essential joy of being. Hopefully, one day you will know the peace that transcends all understanding.

I know you believe that the world would be better without suffering but if you think about it, it would be a hollow world without suffering. This is as Leibniz described, "the best of all possible worlds."


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

AngelClare said:


> But you conveniently ignore that this God you're referring to, if the Bible is correct, is also the kind of God who would allow himself to be mocked, whipped and crucified for your sins. That's the God in the Bible too, right? And it's also the New Testament or the latest most up-to-date revelation of the nature of God for Christians.


 So that's inconsistency. That's human thinking to the letter. It's pretty obvious that humans made him up because he is messed up in all the same ways as humans are.

1. He isn't consistent.

2. His own rules don't apply to him.

3. He's a narcissist.

4. He picks and chooses what he cares about.

5. He finds excuses to put people and things he doesn't like in a great big blender and turn them all into a "Evildoer" smoothie.

6. He couldn't make humans any better than we are and yet he somehow created the whole universe and everything in it (which doesn't explain where the hell he was before he created a place to be or how he created something before he even existed or how he existed if there wasn't anything).

7. He supposedly made us exactly in his image and yet he made our bodies and minds do all kinds of apparently sinful things.

8. He gave us the ability to make choices because he is so awesome and then decided to punish us with fire and death and torture and turn us into pillars of salt when he didn't like our choices.

9. He gave us the ability to create new life forms but if we do, won't we basically be gods? Isn't that blasphemy or something?

10. We're not really supposed to do anything. If we obey everything in the Bible, we can't do anything we want to do and we can't just sit around and do nothing. Everything we do is wrong.

11. Vengeance is his but we're supposed to observe his ways and be like him.

12. Why didn't he know Eve was gonna eat the damn apple before he created her? Or really. He should have been able to know it was all gonna go wrong before he created anything. So he created a flawed universe, a flawed species AND he didn't even foresee his mistakes. And then he couldn't just be a man and admit everything he did was just plain wrong.

13. Snakes are really not very convincing bad guys. It should have been a spider. Snakes might (sometimes) be more dangerous but they're not nearly as creepy as spiders. I guess nobody would have ever believed Eve could have been seduced by a spider. Obviously, she'd have screamed and ran away with her knockers flopping (Oblivious to the plain fact that God was getting an eyeful from his vantage point up above and invisible).


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

AngelClare said:


>


I dislike seeing this picture because 1.) It shows the utter ugliness of war, even somewhat of a touch of fanaticism and 2.) He did not accomplish what he set out to do, it made the Viet Cong lash out and start persecuting aka killing even more monks or people who opposed their regime. It's just an ugly, ugly reminder of the war despite his spiritual practice and attempt.

Though it's a testament to human willpower, it really is a capture of a ravaged time and place. Sorry if that offends you.



SocialOutcast1980 said:


> I know that I probably should have started this thread in another section of this forum. When I posted the question I was feeling very depressed and angry from a terrible day at work. I decided to vent my frustration in the first section that I saw, which I thought involved what I was thinking. I didn't set out to offend anybody. So I apologize to anyone who did take offense. The answer to my own question is that there is no one to blame for the way I always feel. It's not my fault, it's not societies fault, and it certainly is not "Gods" fault. It's very frustrating not knowing why I am socially awkward. So it kind of puts my mind at ease to give blame to someone or something that may or may not even exist. I know how ridiculous I must sound. It wasn't supposed to spark a debated about the existence of God. It really has nothing to do with God in general (I know that doesn't really make a whole ot of sense). I would agree with those reading this who think that I am utterly stupid because it was a dumb question to ask. I also appreciate all those who took the time to post an opinion, religious or non-religious. For the first time ever in my pathetic life, people took interest in a question that I asked, so I thank all of you for participating. I am a lot more familiar with how this website works, so in the future I will be more careful and less random with how I post my thoughts.


This post is very humbling and really speaks about you as a person. I think humility is hard to come by and this was the most humbling post I've read today, so kudos to you, man.


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## One Armed Scissor (Nov 4, 2015)

If one sets aside superstition, then one is not concerned with the nature of the fictional character referred to as "god." I prefer to live my life without being superstitious, therefore I am not concerned with questions like "why does the character god allow evil to exist?" 
Instead of wasting time on fiction like the bible, try reading something with more substance like Meditations by Marcus Aurelius:
_Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one. _


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## Yer Blues (Jul 31, 2013)

Overworked god.

Back in Yahweh's day there were many more gods to offset his workload.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Andres124 said:


> Friend, why are you so hateful towards God?


I don't hate your god any more than the several thousand other gods man have invented. Why would you insist that I hate something that seemingly in nothing more than your imagination? Can we pray to you god and have him do something?



Andres124 said:


> You only say that because of your pride.


Well, I didn't say that. You pulled words out of my mouth. Just a reminder, people can read and see when you do this. I know it's really convenient to make **** up and present it as if I said it, but other can see you stuff all that straw.



Andres124 said:


> God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.


I give no seal ****s about that. Can he heal a single amputee of lost limbs?


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## vsaxena (Apr 17, 2015)

A God whose *** I would kick were I given the chance.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

It's very simplistic to believe that an ideal world would be one without suffering. How many universes have most people created? It's a false assumption that a world with less suffering would be a better world. Moreover, you have to define what mean by better. Better for who? Better in what sense? It could very well be better for human progress that there is suffering to overcome. It's just not simple like people make it seem.

Again, I refer you to Leibniz' Best of all possible worlds argument


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## Andres124 (Oct 23, 2012)

Foh_Teej said:


> I don't hate your god any more than the several thousand other gods man have invented. Why would you insist that I hate something that seemingly in nothing more than your imagination? Can we pray to you god and have him do something?
> 
> Well, I didn't say that. You pulled words out of my mouth. Just a reminder, people can read and see when you do this. I know it's really convenient to make **** up and present it as if I said it, but other can see you stuff all that straw.
> 
> I give no seal ****s about that. Can he heal a single amputee of lost limbs?


Friend, it is pride, you just don't see it. Atheism is nothing more than just a religion, it's the religion of self. Everything the atheist does is all about worshipping himself, because He lives his life as a god, not needing God because he's comfortable in pleasing himself. The religion of atheism teaches the fairytale of evolution in schools, which has been debunked so many times. That old religion should be in the closet. It doesn't matter what anyone believes my friend, just because you don't believe in your Creator, doesn't make Him go away. You have no foundational truth, you just lean on your own opinion and validate it as truth. There are many outside sources that validate The Bible and creation proves of God's existence. You just have a lot of preconceived ideas. You atheists fulfill the verse "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:22). God gave you a conscious and He wrote His law in your heart. That is why you know it's wrong to hate another human being, look with lust, lie, fornicate, take God's name in vain. There is an absolute truth, but it's the truth you hate because you very well know that when you die, you will stand before God your Creator to give an account for your life, and it doesn't matter what you believe because it's the truth. Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven my friend. Seek the Lord while He may be found.


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## PrisciIIa (Jun 1, 2016)

Andres124 said:


> Friend, it is pride, you just don't see it. Atheism is nothing more than just a religion, it's the religion of self. *Everything the atheist does is all about worshipping himsel*f, because He lives his life as a god, not needing God because he's comfortable in pleasing himself. The* religion of atheism teaches the fairytale of evolution in schools, which has been debunked so many times*. That old religion should be in the closet. It doesn't matter what anyone believes my friend, just because you don't believe in your Creator, doesn't make Him go away. You have no foundational truth, you just lean on your own opinion and validate it as truth. There are many outside sources that validate The Bible and creation proves of God's existence. You just have a lot of preconceived ideas. You atheists fulfill the verse "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:22). God gave you a conscious and He wrote His law in your heart. That is why you know it's wrong to hate another human being, look with lust, lie, fornicate, take God's name in vain. There is an absolute truth, but it's the truth you hate because you very well know that when you die, you will stand before God your Creator to give an account for your life, and it doesn't matter what you believe because it's the truth. Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven my friend. Seek the Lord while He may be found.


*chucke*

:lol


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## Trones (May 15, 2014)

Foh_Teej said:


> Can we pray to you god and have him do something?


Do not test the lord your god.... lol

But seriously I've always thought this "pain & suffering" question is stupid. I mean it presumes that this ill-defined being exists and is responsible for events that have no causal link to that aforementioned being. We are assuming this being exists based on...???--The emotional reward of the alleviation of massive cognitive dissonance through confirmation bias, which is necessary for the preservation of the religious individuals identity (How could god not exist if I based my every decision off what his book says to do?)????

I would much rather have an atheist point a gun at my head because I know he couldn't rationalize the guilt away through asking an invisible friend to forgive him for it. (This of course means he is less likely to pull the trigger)

Andres124 --- Troll???


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## Andres124 (Oct 23, 2012)

Trones said:


> Do not test the lord your god.... lol
> 
> But seriously I've always thought this "pain & suffering" question is stupid. I mean it presumes that this ill-defined being exists and is responsible for events that have no causal link to that aforementioned being. We are assuming this being exists based on...???--The emotional reward of the alleviation of massive cognitive dissonance through confirmation bias, which is necessary for the preservation of the religious individuals identity (How could god not exist if I based my every decision off what his book says to do?)????
> 
> ...


The Bible is no mere book my friend, prophecies from The Bible have been fulfilled and still some to be fulfilled, which proves it is divinely inspired. Again, nothing new with you, as I told the other guy, you have preconceived ideas about The Bible. I can give you outside sources that validate The Bible my friend? It doesn't matter what you believe because your non belief doesn't make God, heaven, or hell go away. By what standard do you judge? is it your mere opinion?


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## Trones (May 15, 2014)

Andres124 said:


> By what standard do you judge? is it your mere opinion?


Yes it is... This is why we have courts.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Dear Jesus, per Matthew 21:22, Matthew 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 15:16, Luke 11:9, John 14:14, and John 15:7, please come into my heart and save my soul. I'm publicly asking you to come into my heart and save me so there can be no excuses or no true Scotsman fallacies made by other believers later. In Jesus Name I pray, AMEN



Andres124 said:


> "Friend, it is pride, you just don't see it."



No, it's skepticism and I am open about it. There's no hiding it. But let's pray about it: 
 
Dear Jesus, per Matthew 21:22, Matthew 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 15:16, Luke 11:9, John 14:14, and John 15:7, please allow your cult members to present undeniable and irrefutable evidence, to the absolute maximum value of epistemological certainty that you exist. I pray that you remove whatever pride exist that I may open up to your existence if you can indeed demonstrate such. I pray that you heal all amputees and regrow their lost limbs. I pray that cultists make no excuse for the ignored prayer. I pray that if cultists even think of giving a reason why you failed, they concede that you do not exist. In the event you fail, I demand your god powers because I will be a better god than you. I will actually end suffering. Oh and I won't send my immortal self to die to save idiots for a debt I imposed on them. In Jesus name I pray AMEN.



Andres124 said:


> "Atheism is nothing more than just a religion, it's the religion of self."



I'm pretty sure lying is a sin according to your cult. You are being willfully ignorant, actually lack proper understanding and spouting nonsense, or just deliberately lying. There are several THOUSAND gods, goddesses, and other supernatural deities and beings that man has worshiped. If you do not believe in every one of them - if you so much as disbelieve a single one of them- you know exactly how it feels to be an atheist. That's all it is. I don't know why I have to keep telling you cultists this. I don't actually give a damn whether you cultists assert that it is a religion or not. You're ONLY doing it to put it on the same level of unreason as your own. You can call it whatever you want; you're just wrong about it. That's nothing new to cultists, though. 
 
However, atheism has no beliefs. An atheist can believe the moon is a ball of cookies and cream ice cream if he or she wants. An atheist can believe or disbelieve all sorts of other crap. Anything outside of the existence of a god or gods is irrelevant. An atheist can hold whatever worldview he or she wants. The - ONLY- requisite is disbelief in a god or gods. That's it. Stop using this stupid argument. Theism, itself, isn't a religion either. These are categories regarding a single proposition to the existence of a god. Theists accept the proposition, atheists do not. Get this through you brain bone so you don't say it again. I'm pretty sure I have already told you this. At any rate, you cult member have certainly been corrected numerous times. 
 
But actually, I'm quite fine with atheism being considered a religion for the legal status and protection it would provide to those that identify as such. So, you can call it this ALL YOU WANT. Your cult is on the decline regardless. While I have doubt you'll be able to comprehend what I am saying to you, others can read. It's nearly impossible to convert you extreme delusionists back to reality but those on the fence can see and find your cult lacking a lot of substance other than self-deprecation that requires a savior to cure the disease created by the savior and threats of eternal torment if you reject it.



Andres124 said:


> "Everything the atheist does is all about worshipping himself,"




 Everything? So tell me "everything" that you have done to worship yourself since you presumably do not believe in Hellenistic, Khemetic, German, Norse, Native American, Chinese&#8230; hell I could list dozens of religions and hundreds of gods from around the world that you do not believe. Learn the **** how to use google and you will read about thousands you may have never even heard of. I hope Pascal's wager doesn't bite you on the *** while you suck Jesus off.



Andres124 said:


> "because He lives his life as a god,"



I simply do not believe this and dismiss your claims on the account of you being mentally ill. I don't know what part of an immortal god sending himself, as a blood sacrifice to himself, to save you from what he will do if you don't believe this stupid *** story to begin with could actually be convincing to anyone. This is ****ing stupid but it's what you cultists believe.



Andres124 said:


> "not needing God because he's comfortable in pleasing himself."


If this is indeed the case, this should tell you something. But "pleasing myself" has nothing to do with a god in my worldview. You clearly admit that others can get by without your god.



Andres124 said:


> "The religion of atheism teaches the fairytale of evolution in schools,"


I'm sorry this bothers you cultists but you have been repeatedly destroyed in US court. However, schools teach FACTS about reality utilizing the scientific method. This is a good thing. I refuse to allow you cultists to infect society with your cult mythology. On a side note to the rest of you cultists, if you wonder why atheists spend so much time over a god they do not believe exists, it because you cultists want to influence society with your ancient near east Hebrew war god mythology. You cultists are often anti-science and twisted in your cult thinking. We can't have this fairytale bull**** moving forward with humanity. You guys have to grow up with your fairy cloud ghost nonsense.



Andres124 said:


> "which has been debunked so many times."


Please stop playing stupid. There is a reason virtually EVERY university and science foundation on the planet, spanning multiple branches of science, converges on the same conclusion. You only find these "debunk" on creationist propaganda websites. There's a reason for that. 


 But on that note, atheism has NOTHING to do with science or the scientific consensus of ANY generally accepted theory or held concept. While it's true many scientist are atheist (virtually all in evolutionary related branches of science), many got there from examining the evidence -- not because they want to sin or whatever dumb **** you cultist project on to those that do not subscribe to your fairytale stories. There is simply no evidence for a god and overwhelming evidence for evolution. We had that drive by Jehovah's witness cultist say the same **** and we shut here down immediately. 


 But back to the point: science and evolution have NOTHING to do with my atheism. If you do not accept the scientific consensus regarding the diversity of life, I don't care. Evolution is IRREVANT. You could have disproven evolution 18 minutes ago and this would still not make the god hypothesis true by default. Disproving evolution won't make me believe in your god ANYMORE than it would either of us in Wodan. 


 But look, science isn't bad; it just relegates you claims to cult mythology and the fiction section of the library. I know this pisses you cultists off but you need to accept reality into your heart -- no, actually your brain. You need to get right in the brain.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Andres124 said:


> "That old religion should be in the closet."


 Well, there's is an effective way to do that if you think you can; you can falsify it. You and your cult are free to demonstrate otherwise. I'm not sure how you do it unless you god magic the **** out of it. You repeatedly fail miserably to do so but it's a trend that you cultists love to ignore. So, I ask you to pray with me: Dear Jesus, per Matthew 21:22, Matthew 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 15:16, Luke 11:9, John 14:14, and John 15:7, please give your cult member the strength and wisdom to actually disprove evolution without a doubt. If they fail or make any excuse, it will be taken as a concession that you do not exist. 



Andres124 said:


> "It doesn't matter what anyone believes my friend,"


 Yes, it does! What is wrong with you? It's MUCH better to believe true things than false. 



Andres124 said:


> "just because you don't believe in your Creator,"


 I do believe in my parents. We know how sexual reproduction works despite your cult brain making you think some fairy magic **** happened. 



Andres124 said:


> "doesn't make Him go away."


 Cultist insisting his or her imaginary friend is real doesn't make him appear. Dear Jesus per Matthew 21:22, Matthew 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 15:16, Luke 11:9, John 14:14, and John 15:7, I ask you to appear to all disbelievers so that you can indisputably prove your existence. If you fail, I ask you to cast your cult members and yourself into you own lake of fire. I Jesus name, AMEN. 



Andres124 said:


> "You have no foundational truth,"


 Yes, I do. Science, the scientific method, logic, reason, critical and rational thinking are BY FAR the best way to discern fact from fiction, reality from fantasy, the real from imagined. We have reliable methods that are consistent with perception, experience, and expectation. While we cannot truly have any objective certainty or absolute knowledge, we don't need to nor is it ever necessary. However, these tools and methods provide the highest degree of reliable, repeatable results. But how dare you tell me I have no truth when I don't believe in you god. I mean for **** sake, I obviously don't have "foundational truth" (whatever the **** that means) when you base it solely on a god I do not believe exists. 



Andres124 said:


> "you just lean on your own opinion and validate it as truth."


 Umm, no I do not. I just mentioned some tools and methods of discerning fact from fiction. When you properly apply these tools and methods, you will see for yourself how reliable they are. 



Andres124 said:


> "There are many outside sources that validate The Bible and creation proves of God's existence."


 List them. List ONE. I DARE you. All you other cultists reading this, you better get your asses in gear, too. Just realize that I have vast experience with your cult claims. Don't go surfing AiG, or Creation Ministries, or any other cult site. Dear Jesus, per Matthew 21:22, Matthew 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 15:16, Luke 11:9, John 14:14, and John 15:7, I ask that you provide evidence so that you cult members can demonstrate you existence. I ask that the make no posts or excuses until they complete this task. I pray that any cultist that reads this thread I obligated under 1 Peter 3:15 to demonstrate why they have hope in you and to demonstrate your existence. I ask that if they fail, you know in their hearts they are now atheists. I Jesus name I pray, AMEN



Andres124 said:


> "You just have a lot of preconceived ideas."


 Name one. You have a lot of bull**** coming out of your cult brain. 



Andres124 said:


> "You atheists fulfill the verse "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:22)."


 This is more easily applied to you cultists. You seem to be the one professing truth with absolutely no substantiation, you moron. 



Andres124 said:


> "God gave you a conscious"


 Define what a god is and how he manifests himself in reality. Then demonstrate this god exists. Do you understand? Can you read my sentences slowly, in your brain, and execute my request? Can any of you other cultists do this? I need you cultists to understand that you make claims that SO NOT JIVE WITH REALITY. What does it take to get you realize it? 



Andres124 said:


> "and He wrote His law in your heart."


 Your god wrote law on my heart? Are you actually retarded? I mean damn, you're saying your god interacted somehow with my ****ing heart. How did he do this? What force of nature did you god utilize to write **** on my heart? Electromagnetic? Strong force? How about Weak? Does your god know the secrets of gravity and used it to write on my heart? I mean what force carrier is acting on it? Just some unexplainable magic? Can your god use some gluons to tickle deez? I need you to answer these questions as you are the one trying to convince me of your claims. So far, I am still dismissing you on account of you being mentally ill. 



Andres124 said:


> "That is why you know it's wrong to hate another human being,"


Nope, but you making things up to suit your agenda again. i don't need any god to tell me what wrong with certain actions. And how dare you come at me with his line of bull**** when Yahweh is one of the most vile ******* gods man has invented? Have you actually read the damn bible? It's CLEARLY written that this god is a jealous, vindictive god. This god endorses slavery, rape and murder. Oh but those not so true Scotsman can't really understand the "word of god" right? Yahweh is not my choice for morality even in comic book fiction. 

 


Andres124 said:


> "look with lust,"


We are biologically programmed to seek out mates. Procreation is a good thing. Why the hell would a god be so interested about what sexual thoughts of some lowly human? Why does a god give a damn about what people do with their penises and vaginas? 



Andres124 said:


> " lie, "


No, lying negatively affects social confidence and integrity within a society. Dishonesty is generally frowned upon in most cases as it is counter to fulfilling obligations, expectations and responsibility. More importantly, distrust creates apprehension, fear, and suspicion of future misfortune and adversity. You don't need a god to figure this out. The moral argument is one of the stupidest arguments you can make as it is demonstrably false. 



Andres124 said:


> "fornicate,"


Ewwwwwwwwww I created dicks and vaginas! Ewwwwww! They put them together touch them!! Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 2 guys together with penises out! Two girls in a position that resembles a number! I created these humans with the desire to **** and be intimate and it makes me angry!!! I'm god of the damn universe and this kind of crap makes me MADDDDDDD. 

 Your god is a weird and creepy guy. Just sayin'

.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

So anyway, I think I may have asked you before, which one of Noah's family had gonorrhea? This is exclusively a human disease so somebody on this boat had it. Maybe magic? Why the **** would he create such a pathogen anyway? Chlamydia (not to mention the enormous variety of other micro-organisms) can infect other animals but raises some serious questions about how it became a human problem. I think Noah was really into animal husbandry, if you catch my drift. I mean hell, he had all of those animals. He had to kick start the hyper evolution required to create the millions of species; oh I mean "kinds" we have today. Anyhow, the bible marks two times that incest was necessary to populate the earth. We absolutely know this never happened. 
  



Andres124 said:


> "take God's name in vain."


 
Your god sucks. He is useless in practice and indistinguishable from the nonexistent as a concept. Why would a god care what a puny human says, anyway? What kind of insecure tool god do you worship? But since I'm saved now, I can take his name in vain all I want. He promised me everlasting life and I accepted it. I prayed that you must accept this reality or you concede that he does not exist. Oh if he doesn't strip free will in Heaven, I promise to pee on you for eternity. Anywhere you float around, listening to these harps and horn playing hymns and ****, I'll be there peeing on you. I mean since man was created in his image, I'll smote angels with my penis too. I'll just stroll out with my pole out down the pearly gates. 
 



Andres124 said:


> "There is an absolute truth,"


 
And you know what it is right? Well, I do not believe you. I don't yield to the threats of you evil god. I don't actually have a choice in this matter to believe this nonsense. I simply find the idea of your cult theology to be absolute total utter bull****. You would need some good evidence to convince me otherwise. I ask you cultist repeatedly to provide some but you idiots somehow fail to understand simple requests.
 



Andres124 said:


> "but it's the truth you hate"


 
No, I don't. I think you are full of **** to the highest order. You do not get to assign your thoughts to me. 
 



Andres124 said:


> "because you very well know that when you die,"


 
Actually, I don't. I've never died nor have I ever spoken to anyone that survived death. Everything we know about death points to a cessation of biological activity, including that of the brain, what is as far as we can tell, solely responsible for consciousness experience. Anecdotal youtube videos of a guy claiming he went to hell and returned are simply not convincing. 
 



Andres124 said:


> "you will stand before God your Creator to give an account for your life,"


 
Why would I believe your bald *** assertions? You make nothing but threats with no substantiation, period. Look, you cultists make bizarre claims and I simply do not believe you. This is your burden to bear, not mine. I do not accept your theology and dismiss you as mentally ill. This isn't me being mean to you; I find your claims asinine to the point that you must actually suffer from real delusions. But let's address the meat of you claim here. Why would it be necessary to stand before an all knowing god? What's the point? I know what I have done in life and presumably so would an all knowing god. He would know this before I was even conceived. 



Andres124 said:


> and it doesn't matter what you believe"


 
 Yes, it absolutely does matter what a person believes. Beliefs inform actions; actions have consequences. Your cult does not exist in a vacuum where you only affect those that also subscribe to your cult mythology. 
 
 


Andres124 said:


> "because it's the truth."


 
 You made up your own definition of truth. You have made nothing but unsubstantiated declarations and threats. People can read. 



Andres124 said:


> "Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven my friend."


 
Why would this be the case? Why would a 2000 year old carpenter, that is actually Yahweh incarnate himself, sent as a sacrifice to himself, be the ONLY way to pay a debt imposed by the same damn god in the first place? Have actually thought out how stupid this sounds? But anyway, what are the physics like in Heaven? When you die, what the point of resurrecting in another place, like Heaven for example? I mean why just stay here and live again? That would certainly seem to ease the grief of the death of someone close. Why is this some event a god would want to execute? What will our bodies be like? What is a soul? This is the kind of thing you need to demonstrate. 
 
 

.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Andres124 said:


> "Seek the Lord while He may be found. "


 This is demonstrably false. Dear Jesus, per Matthew 21:22, Matthew 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 15:16, Luke 11:9, John 14:14, and John 15:7, the claim is that you can be found. I pray that you can demonstrate your existence beyond any doubt. If I still have doubt, Andres is full of this and you do not exist. I pray that they make NO excuses for failure. I pray that you accept that you are either a liar, and must cast yourself into hell for your sin, or you will answer accordingly per your own statements in you book. I pray that any other outcome demonstrates your nonexistence. In Jesus name I pray, amen.

Assuming this god fails as expected, can you snap a photo next time you find him? I have facetime or skype next time you see him. Otherwise, I am dismissing your claims as imaginary and that you are mentally ill.

One last time, Dear Jesus, per Matthew 21:22, Matthew 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 15:16, Luke 11:9, John 14:14, and John 15:7, I pray that you demonstrate your existence. I pray that no one make a single excuse for your failure or it shall be taken as a concession that you do not exist. I pray that either you demonstrate yourself like your word clearly says you will, or it is absolute indisputable evidence that you do not exist. AMEN.

At the very least, this will demonstrate prayer in ineffective or you have a worthless and lying god. You cultist need to sort out reality before it's too late. Your excuses will be noted.



Andres124 said:


> The Bible is no mere book my friend,"


 No it's a collection of writing, spanning several centuries, featuring dozens of authors, from different locations. It reads exactly like that and of what one would imagined if it were inspired by imaginations of the time and location of the various authors. But let's get this straight: you want to make claims about it and declare truth with it. I DO NOT ACCEPT THE BIBLE AS DIVINELY INSPIRED. I don't give a damn what your opinion of the bible is. It does not convince me of what you want me to believe about it. You have to make better arguments. Yours suck. I don't want excuses from you. Pray to your god that you give me convincing arguments. If you fail, you god simply will be dismissed as a part of you delusions. Do you understand? You can preach all day here but I promise there's a reason your cult is on the decline and I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to expose you. 
 


Andres124 said:


> "prophecies from The Bible have been fulfilled"


 Name one. We can investigate it in public to see if this claim has merit. Be aware, I am very familiar with cult tactics and the typical prophecies you will use.



Andres124 said:


> "and still some to be fulfilled,"



Let's talk about those. Name them. I have a response to those as well. 






Andres124 said:


> "which proves it is divinely inspired."


 No the **** it doesn't. There are things in the bible that are DEMONSTRABLY WRONG. There's a reason your cult is losing the battle with critical thinking.



Andres124 said:


> "Again, nothing new with you, as I told the other guy, you have preconceived ideas about The Bible."


 Again, as I have told you before, you are willfully ignorant and refuse to think rationally.



Andres124 said:


> "I can give you outside sources that validate The Bible my friend?"


 GIVE THEM. Post them. You cultists say this all day long but never do it. Dear Jesus, per Matthew 21:22, Matthew 7:7, Mark 11:24, John 15:16, Luke 11:9, John 14:14, and John 15:7, if you exist, I pray that Andres posts evidence so convincing to me, that he must accept that you do not exist and he must seek mental help if I still disbelieve. I pray that no amount of excuses be given by believers if they are to remain such. I also pray that failure will be noted as evidence that you do not exist. 






Andres124 said:


> "It doesn't matter what you believe because your nonbelief doesn't make God, heaven, or hell go away."



Things that do not exist are already away. No need to make them.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

Life is a test....

A life without any problem.....what kind of eazy test is that?

Imagine you have 1 tooth and 1 leg.....nothing.....and still loves god......that is fantastic and real love.

He tests us.....


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

ljubo said:


> Life is a test....
> 
> A life without any problem.....what kind of eazy test is that?


 Why do you need a test if the guy who created you is perfect? It's like if a perfect designer designed a perfect car and then tested it until it failed. Why does he need to test it if he knows it isn't perfect? Why isn't it perfect if he is? And if he is, he knows it's perfect so why the hell would he test it, anyhow? And if he just tested it for his amusement and it failed, why would he punish the car?

So many questions......


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

ljubo said:


> Life is a test....
> 
> A life without any problem.....what kind of eazy test is that?
> 
> ...


So when someone is dying in a brutally painful manner it's just a test from God to see how you cope? This God seems like a bit of an *******.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

AussiePea said:


> So when someone is dying in a brutally painful manner it's just a test from God to see how you cope? This God seems like a bit of an *******.


 Sounds exactly like a scientist torturing his rats to death to me. I knew it!


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## steph22 (May 12, 2013)

well i believe creation and evolution came together. the best god is an all loving god, who does not judge and forgives, although we only have ourselves to forgive really. we are all part of god and as one! 0


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## Tetragammon (Jun 2, 2015)

SocialOutcast1980 said:


> Does anyone else think this way also, or am I the only one?


I wholeheartedly agree. If God does exist then *I hate him with every ounce of my being*; if my atheism were ever proven wrong I'd be a misotheist.

See, most Christian sects agree that God is perfect. They agree that he is omniscient, omnipotent and perhaps even omnipresent. This means that God KNEW exactly how I'd turn out when he created me the way I am -- that's what "omniscient" means, all-knowing. You can't know everything if you have no foresight!

So if God knows everything, then he must be able to predict the future with very high if not perfect accuracy. He must have KNOWN exactly what each trait that he created us with would do, what kind of outcome it would have. When he created my brain with all its chemical imbalances, he must have known how much I'd suffer as a result. When he "gave" me this critical, logical mind, he must have known that I'd USE IT and preclude his very existence.

The apologists can preach about free agency or Satan's influence or whatever else as much as they like, but it will never change the simple fact that God created me with certain foreknowledge of how I would turn out, and I *HATE HIM* for that. That is, if he exists, which is incredibly unlikely; it's far more reasonable to assume that my brokenness is the result of environmental factors mixed with some unfortunate genetic traits.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

AussiePea said:


> So when someone is dying in a brutally painful manner it's just a test from God to see how you cope? This God seems like a bit of an *******.


Everything is a test....are you worthy of heaven? This life shows if you are.....

You want to have a perfect life? You will never learn a lession...i have been sick alot, i always come out stronger after its gone.....

yes he is a dictator, but his mercy is bigger than is anger. He does not demand much to give us enteral life....an enternal life that will be fantastic without horrors, pain and sorrow.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

WillYouStopDave said:


> Why do you need a test if the guy who created you is perfect? It's like if a perfect designer designed a perfect car and then tested it until it failed. Why does he need to test it if he knows it isn't perfect? Why isn't it perfect if he is? And if he is, he knows it's perfect so why the hell would he test it, anyhow? And if he just tested it for his amusement and it failed, why would he punish the car?
> 
> So many questions......


We are not perfect, we are creature that sins alot....in heaven we will get a new better body, then we will be perfect. This life is only a test....

Lots of questions.....god work in mysterious ways but sometimes i think that maybe he is just an alien leader and not all-powerfull.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

Tetragammon said:


> I wholeheartedly agree. If God does exist then *I hate him with every ounce of my being*; if my atheism were ever proven wrong I'd be a misotheist.
> 
> See, most Christian sects agree that God is perfect. They agree that he is omniscient, omnipotent and perhaps even omnipresent. This means that God KNEW exactly how I'd turn out when he created me the way I am -- that's what "omniscient" means, all-knowing. You can't know everything if you have no foresight!
> 
> ...


Muslims and jews say god is perfect as well.
You are being tested by the almighty one. 
Try to put your trust in him and he will make you feel better and improve your life.
And **** this life, the afterlife will be perfect so why the need for a perfect life in this fake test world.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

I improved my own life through hard work and persistence, no God helped me and anyone who says Mr achievements are due to him and fall into a ditch.


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## clarkekent (Dec 2, 2015)

ljubo said:


> Everything is a test....are you worthy of heaven? This life shows if you are.....


If I shoot you in the head, is this a test from god? Will this make me a messenger of god? :grin2:


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## Tetragammon (Jun 2, 2015)

ljubo said:


> Muslims and jews say god is perfect as well.


You're correct there. I probably should have used "monotheist" instead of "Christian" but I've had the most experience with the latter, since I was born into it.

But this is one hell of a ****ty test, if what you say is true. Some children die before they ever leave their mother's wombs -- how are fetuses "tested" if they never really lived? And what about babies and toddlers who die? How about the kids who are born in Africa and just starve to death? How is that a "test"?

It's all bull****, man! There is no "test," there is no "almighty one," there is no afterlife. It's all fiction.



ljubo said:


> And **** this life, the afterlife will be perfect so why the need for a perfect life in this fake test world.


Wow... That is so sad; I feel so bad for you. You're just dismissing this life out of hand, when in all likelihood *this life is all we've got!* I live in the here and now as much as I possibly can because I know that it could end at any moment and there's most likely nothing but oblivion beyond death.

On the other hand, if you believe until your dying breath then you'll likely never realize how wrong you were. Can't regret anything when you don't exist.


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