# Why is Society so reluctant to seek and help incels ?



## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

This frustrates me so much !!! arg...

I was living just like an incel once. All of my romantic attempts blew up in my face.

Luckily when I entered university I was placed in a room filled with extroverts who...deliberately made plans to include me in outings.

They would literally get dressed to go to the night club.. and wait and demand that I get out of bed and come with them.

I was pretty stubborn in my narcissism and believing that I would never get a woman.

But thank God for my roommates. Without them, I would by now probably have a very bitter opinion of women in general. I have been in a relationship for 8 years now and I have no shame to admit that I have my roommates from college to thank for that.
-------------------------------------
Fast forward now whenever I hear stories in the news about some lonely frustrated virgin committing acts of violence.. what saddens me the most is ...how even when *everyone* in the community knows that BOB is all alone...*nobody *makes any attempt to befriend him and then everybody gets all surprised when he lets out his frustration.

Some of the things I keep reading are

1) These men feel they are entitled to sex from women, so whatever...they are horrible people that don't deserve my empathy

2) I am a woman and it is not my job to have sex with a random stranger because he is lonely so whatever...not my problem...

3) I am a man and I learnt how to attract women properly...so they can too...they just have to man-up and learn social skills ...so whatever not my problem

Basically whether coming from men or women it is always some combination of *it is not my problem/responsibility/it is his own d*** fault *

Nobody wants to engage with these men with a 10 foot pole.
Nobody wants to admit that there is something wrong with our society that is creating this issue.

And therefore the issue remains unresolved ...until the next mass shooting.

I am not in any way condoning VIOLENCE
I am just looking for a way for us to prevent such violence from recurring

And I just don't feel pushing Incels further into a corner (IE shutting down all of their websites) is gonna help ...all it does is push them further into a corner.

What if we can find a way to prevent our young men from becoming incels in the first place.

What if we can find a way to reintegrate them back into society


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

VIncymon said:


> 1) These men feel they are entitled to sex from women, so whatever...they are horrible people that don't deserve my empathy


Incels (not in the literal meaning of the word, but the used meaning)_ do_ act like they are entitled to sex. They act like women are a resource that should be distributed "fairly" (which just means, they want sex), ignoring that women actually should have the right to choose.



VIncymon said:


> 2) I am a woman and it is not my job to have sex with a random stranger because he is lonely so whatever...not my problem...


Which is true. It is far more important that people can say no to sex than that other people can force them to have sex. That this isn't obvious is beyond disturbing.



VIncymon said:


> 3) I am a man and I learnt how to attract women properly...so they can too...they just have to man-up and learn social skills ...so whatever not my problem


Also true. Dating is a competitive environment, it isn't the responsibility of successful men to coach unsuccessful men and effectively increase their own competition. If unsuccessful men want coaching, they can pay for it (and they actually can). Or ask successful men, and actually listen for once.



VIncymon said:


> Basically whether coming from men or women it is always some combination of *it is not my problem/responsibility/it is his own d*** fault *


It isn't anyone else's problem. I can't buy a mansion, I really want a mansion, it isn't anyone else's responsibility to help me get one.

There are (at least) three problems with how incels deal with this issue:

1. They want to be given something (sex) that cannot be given to them (because women would have to be forced into it).
2. They usually don't actually ask for help. They complain about their jawlines, how women have it easier, how women "friendzone" them. How there should be women farms, how women only like bad boys, how nice they are, how things were better in the 50's, how there aren't any women who can't find men, how everyone else should help them. And then they heap praise upon those among them who go on rampages. That isn't asking for help. This isn't encouraging society to think about their issues. The responsibility for how they ask for help lies with them. 
3. They point blank refuse to accept the problem lies within their own capabilities. If they did they could get therapy for those issues (personality problems, autism, social anxiety, appearance, whatever). When they do ask for advice, and get given it, they just ignore it and go on about how awful tinder is because they put a picture of a good looking guy and women wanted to sleep with him.

Show me an incel who actually went for therapy for their personality problems, spent a year in the gym 3x per week and hired a dating coach and I will show you a flying hovercow.


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## 3stacks (Sep 27, 2014)

Give em free fleshlights


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

There were always "incels". The only difference is that they had better coping methods than threatening to kill people if they didn't get laid.

There was a time (believe it or not) when people who didn't get what they wanted just lived with it and moved on.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

I still don't know exactly what an incel is or what half these bloody modern terms mean, but I'm lonely and frustrated, and is sucks. Probably kill me one day.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Society has bigger fish to fry than getting sex for men. Like homelessness, lack of medical care, lack of dental care, obesity, alcoholism, drug addiction, crime, chronic unemployment, etc. 

And there are more ways to meet people than ever before what with online dating, Skype, dating apps, and various other websites that can be used for that. Even having cell phones makes it easier because back in the day you didn't have much privacy since there were only home phones to receive calls.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Incels are a minority of a minority and mostly male. Society doesn't care about males because society was created to control males and create some kind of order. People who fall into the 'incel' group are seen as low value and low importance. Often incels aren't contributing to the system (lots of hikkikomori types, neets etc,) and even when incels are, they're usually near the bottom.

Basically the system rewards your subservience with a woman, but 'incels' are part of the abandoned 20% or so who have fallen off the bottom end of the male dominance hierarchy or are very near to doing so.

Worth noting the incels are just one group, obviously homeless men can be included in this percentage and other people who don't identify as incel.

Honestly? The only people (at least sizable group,) who are really aware besides your group are radical feminists but, they're focused on completely destroying the male dominance hierarchy and have decided to dislike you too because you want to be part of it deep down haha so. Even then there are often very conflicting motives. Eg: some feminists are bothered by sex robots, but that doesn't really make sense at least not in the long term. I dunno I guess it depends on if you think the 'entitlement complex' can be removed. Certainly some men (who don't have access to sex, I don't believe that anyone who does counts as an example,) don't care that much, but is that an environmental side effect? Did they avoid some form of socialisation? Or are they just neuroatypical in specific ways/have a lower sex drive? These questions are still open for debate.

In regards to sex, your best bet will be sex robots I guess.

I don't think some form of sex communism is going to happen anytime soon, I mean I think the genetics are there bonobos do something like that, but we haven't ever managed that and you have to get rid of the territoriality first and.. Probably boost the female sex drive simultaneously. That's not impossible, at least in small amounts sociosexuality in female Humans seems to be very environmentally driven but well it's some ways off. Also this isn't some Utopian ideal as it presents issues in itself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20160317-do-bonobos-really-spend-all-their-time-having-sex

The Human solution so far seems to be marriage culture, I still think there are people who don't get partners under that system though (but perhaps less,) and there's not a lot of incentive (men at the top or who are in female dominated environments have essentially a harem so you know they're not going to give a **** lol.) I think you'd have to get women on board first. Again. Lol. Good luck with that.


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

SplendidBob said:


> Incels (not in the literal meaning of the word, but the used meaning)_ do_ act like they are entitled to sex. They act like women are a resource that should be distributed "fairly" (which just means, they want sex), ignoring that women actually should have the right to choose.
> 
> Which is true. It is far more important that people can say no to sex than that other people can force them to have sex. That this isn't obvious is beyond disturbing.
> 
> ...


Not in the exact order but here goes

(1) Dating is competitive I know. But where is the harm in an older married successful man...giving younger men dating advice/mentoring ? They are not his competition.

That's like saying medicine is competitive so no doctors should teach other doctors....but if you are a Doctor with 10 yrs of tenure and a thriving practice...there is no harm to you in teaching an intern. By the time the intern becomes a successful Doctor you'd probably be retired.

(2) A woman doesn't have to have sex with a guy to help him build social skills. I have asked girls for advice on dressing and conversation topics etc.

(3) "*They do not want help"*I believe there are incels out there who would appreciate help if we weren't too busy insulting them and telling them "figure it out on your own."

And a 4th point....I believe if we are more aware of this problem then maybe we can catch them as teenagers before they develop into incels who cannot be convinced.

Maybe have trained psychiatrists in schools who know about Social Anxiety so that they can spot kids who have it and help them b4 its too late


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

komorikun said:


> *Society has bigger fish to fry than getting sex for men*. Like homelessness, lack of medical care, lack of dental care, obesity, alcoholism, drug addiction, crime, chronic unemployment, etc.
> 
> And there are more ways to meet people than ever before what with online dating, Skype, dating apps, and various other websites that can be used for that. Even having cell phones makes it easier because back in the day you didn't have much privacy since there were only home phones to receive calls.


There we go again. Trivializing the problem because it does not affect your group.

That's like a person who has no mental issues saying that SA doesn't matter and society shouldn't waste its time trying to help ppl with SA.

That is selfish of us.

Sex *is* an important physical need. Part of sex education should be more than just teaching about the physical act ...but teaching young people real lessons about *how to form* a harmonious relationship that leads to sex.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

Men who go out and shoot people will never get an ounce of sympathy from me. I don't think it's very wise to conflate being an incel with being a mass shooter. It takes a special kind of whackaloon to shoot innocent people, incel or not.

There's always going to be losers in any competitive system. Dating is a competitive system. I don't see a way to resolve this issue. Even if you could make all the incels today socially fluent, people from another spot on the ladder will drop to fill that void. 

I will agree on the minor point that incels get a ton of flak for "feeling entitled to sex". EVERYONE feels entitled to romance. This isn't anything out of the ordinary. It's just that incels lack gratification in that department so they're going to be vocal about their frustrations.

But, yes, it's basically ASSUMED that people are going to find a lover, get married, have kids, etc., etc.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

WillYouStopDave said:


> There were always "incels". The only difference is that they had better coping methods than threatening to kill people if they didn't get laid.
> 
> There was a time (believe it or not) when people who didn't get what they wanted just lived with it and moved on.


I think they weren't aware there were other people like them due to not having the internet, and also there were distractions such as war and basic survival.

Still killing indiscriminately makes no sense lol, even by ape standards. This guy's plan made more sense relatively speaking (at least he narrowed it down to the top of the pyramid,) but so poorly executed and dude you don't even live in that jurisdiction but that's the internet for you, makes us all feel like we're uh:






(to some extent it's true tbh, soon to be China probably)


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

Karsten said:


> Men who go out and shoot people will never get an ounce of sympathy from me. I don't think it's very wise to conflate being an incel with being a mass shooter. It takes a special kind of whackaloon to shoot innocent people, incel or not.
> 
> There's always going to be losers in any competitive system. Dating is a competitive system. I don't see a way to resolve this issue. Even if you could make all the incels today socially fluent, people from another spot on the ladder will drop to fill that void.
> 
> ...


:grin2: bravo bravo !!!
Exactly my point ...I really hate it when people say things like:

*The "self labelled nice guys" are only being nice in order to get sex
The incels feel like they deserve to have sex.*

As if the desire for sexual connection is somehow wrong and perverted ???
When you go out on a date with someone ..it is with the intention of eventually having sex ..even if the sex comes 6 months after.

It's a basic instinct (movie reference noted:laugh of course someone who isn't getting any will feel frustrated.

If someone is poor and struggling to hold a job..isn't it wrong for them to express frustration at that ?

If a disaster strikes and you can't get food is it wrong to express frustration at your hunger ?

Sometimes...I just wish...instead of saying things like 
"Nice guys are dishonest in pretending to be nice only to get sex"
or
"Women are not obligated to give incels sex, they should not feel entitled to sex"

We should be more understanding and phrase it different. Like
"If you work on yourself and your social skills, sex will come"
or
"If you work on yourself one day you will meet a woman that will WANT to have sex with you"


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

VIncymon said:


> There we go again. Trivializing the problem because it does not affect your group.
> 
> That's like a person who has no mental issues saying that SA doesn't matter and society shouldn't waste its time trying to help ppl with SA.
> 
> ...


What do you mean my group? There are a lot of lonely women out there. Not sure why certain single guys make such a stink of it.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

VIncymon said:


> There we go again. Trivializing the problem because it does not affect your group.
> 
> That's like a person who has no mental issues saying that SA doesn't matter and society shouldn't waste its time trying to help ppl with SA.
> 
> ...


Some people don't understand just how god damn horrible it is to have a high sex drive but be crippled by anxiety etc, especially when you're in your early to mid 20's and male. You're deprived of your sexuality and your natural instinct to ****. It is as strong as a women desire to have a child. It's what you was born to do. You have this tremendous driving force that is testosterone, fighting against SA and no end of other ****. Not having sex for some is like being a drug addict who can't get a fix. I was able to get my fix but absolutely no where near enough and it drove me insane for years. It's is torturous for any person, male or female, who has a high sex drive. I had this super high sex drive and avoidant personality disorder, which are a terrible combo. ****ing awful!


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

When i was single for long periods i never felt the world owed me something. I guess the problem is that in all likelihood the incel is someone who has let themself go in terms of appearance or rules out dating an unattractive category of woman (while pretending to have tried everyone) or has zero interest in reading some books on how to interact with females or is just too scared to talk to them.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

andy0128 said:


> rules out dating an unattractive category of woman (while pretending to have tried everyone)


Yeah, this tends to be the case a lot of the times, IMO.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Pete Beale said:


> Some people don't understand just how god damn horrible it is to have a high sex drive but be crippled by anxiety etc, especially when you're in your early to mid 20's and male. You're deprived of your sexuality and your natural instinct to ****. *It is as strong as a women desire to have a child.* It's what you was born to do. You have this tremendous driving force that is testosterone, fighting against SA and no end of other ****. Not having sex for some is like being a drug addict who can't get a fix. I was able to get my fix but absolutely no where near enough and it drove me insane for years. It's is torturous for any person, male or female, who has a high sex drive. I had this super high sex drive and avoidant personality disorder, which are a terrible combo. ****ing awful!


Nah I'm pretty sure that's more of a social thing and very variable based on circumstances/environment. There are more women who don't care about having kids than there are men who don't care about having sex.


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

There are female ''incels'' except they don't call themselves that way, don't unite and don't feel entitled to men. Like wtf? The issue is in this belief that women own men sex, emotional servicing etc, that men can't live without it and that it should be provided for them. Women have equally same needs, they're humans and they don't exist to provide it for you, especially one-sidedly. But this is coming from old patriarchal logic that hasn't even been mostly challenged yet. For most of the history menhood existed at the expense of women, feeding on their resources (I mean womenhood too, but girls would grow into women and continue the vicious cycle). 

''Incels'' are huge misogynists and yet they expect women to be in relationships with them (although yeah, to be fair it's possible cause many women are used to that and they do have relationships with misogynists etc).


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I think they weren't aware there were other people like them due to not having the internet, and also there were distractions such as war and basic survival.


 Well, I meant not even so long ago. I didn't have internet and women definitely weren't beating down my door. Ever. I was also not fighting for survival most of my life. I mean, I DID (obviously) not enjoy the situation but it was just life. I certainly did not have any lack of desire. My distraction was masturbation. And I didn't even have porn (because I didn't have internet). I had a tiny amount of porn starting when I was old enough to buy and rent it but I was stuck with watching the same few over and over for years on end. Because of SA, I was usually too intimidated to actually go and buy/rent porn at a store where the female employee was probably hotter than any of the women in the movies. :lol

I guess people my age can't really understand why the younger generation of men are not able to endure what most shy men did not much more than 20 years ago. I mean, in 1985 (for example) if you were a male and you were shy, awkward and unattractive (and many were), you were done and there was nothing to do about it but just find something to take your mind off it. No one wanted to hear about it and there was nowhere to vent about it.

Of course it's a fair point to say there was a lot more violent crime then but it's hard for people to be violent when they're sitting on their butts in front of a computer all day. People were out and about back then way more I think. A bored human is a dangerous human. :lol

I mean, I'm not awesome but I'm here and I never had any urge to hurt anyone over my misfortunes. I always completely accepted them as just bad luck, I guess.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

WillYouStopDave said:


> Well, I meant not even so long ago. I didn't have internet and women definitely weren't beating down my door. Ever. I was also not fighting for survival most of my life. I mean, I DID (obviously) not enjoy the situation but it was just life. I certainly did not have any lack of desire. My distraction was masturbation. And I didn't even have porn (because I didn't have internet). I had a tiny amount of porn starting when I was old enough to buy and rent it but I was stuck with watching the same few over and over for years on end. Because of SA, I was usually too intimidated to actually go and buy/rent porn at a store where the female employee was probably hotter than any of the women in the movies. :lol
> 
> I guess people my age can't really understand why the younger generation of men are not able to endure what most shy men did not much more than 20 years ago. I mean, in 1985 (for example) if you were a male and you were shy, awkward and unattractive (and many were), you were done and there was nothing to do about it but just find something to take your mind off it. No one wanted to hear about it and there was nowhere to vent about it.
> 
> I mean, I'm not awesome but I'm here and I never had any urge to hurt anyone over my misfortunes. I always completely accepted them as just bad luck, I guess.


Yeah the war/survival thing was mostly further back. The internet has really been a game changer for groups of people to come together, and unite under common suffering/goals and occasionally it spills into the real world.

I don't think it's just young men, they're just more likely to act on their thoughts (and engage in militaristic activity.) Many young people are very angry (everyone under age 30 as a general grouping.)


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Nah I'm pretty sure that's more of a social thing and very variable based on circumstances/environment. There are more women who don't care about having kids than there are men who don't care about having sex.


We are worse off then. :b

I was just thinking of a strong, naturally basic instinct and desire some women have, to compare it to. There are some women who desperately want to be a mother but can't for whatever reason, and it haunts and bothers them everyday. I feel so sorry for them and all the people who really crave intimacy with someone, but can't find it. :frown2:


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

Pete Beale said:


> We are worse off then. :b
> 
> I was just thinking of a strong, naturally basic instinct and desire some women have, to compare it to. There are some women who desperately want to be a mother but can't for whatever reason, and it haunts and bothers them everyday. I feel so sorry for them and all the people who really crave intimacy with someone, but can't find it. :frown2:


Omg these women most likely want to be mothers for lots of ****ed up reasons that don't help a child at all and make things ****ed up for the child and then adult. There's no 'maternal instinct' whatsoever. And I doubt men are ''naturally'' this way either. Compulsive sexuality is also imposed on them. And all the violence and agressiveness that comes with it and pornography are the opposite of ''natural'', ''evolutionary'', and ''procreating''.


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## funnynihilist (Jul 29, 2014)

Society only sees the male sex drive as useful if:
A. The guy has.markers of good DNA and will make beautiful babies
B. If the sex drive can be used as motivation to keep the man working. Sex as reward.
C. If his sex drive can be monetized. Porn, marketing, etc.

Otherwise the male sex drive is seen as an inconvenience and is thus marginalized and even stigmatized as being something "dirty".
I think a lot of guys live with this romanticized version of sex in their heads and don't understand that this is just business. Sex is biological business. Even the hook up culture is business. Sex is always attached to some kind of usefulness.
Like today I was sitting in the diner and a tall police officer walked in and EVERY female head turned immediately and I thought to myself "Yep! That's business!"
Maybe 70 years ago this wasn't all so cut throat because there were rules but the sexual revolution and contraception threw out the rules and now it's anything goes.
Would I want to go back to how things were 70 years ago? No I wouldn't. But things are still playing out. This is all still new.
I actually believe in the future there will be more desperate women than men. We tend to forget that while sex is relatively easy for a woman to get(I know not all) commitment is not always so easy and I can only see that getting harder.
They keep saying that people are having less and less sex and this can only Indicate that the sexes are at an impasse.
What I see now is more young men who seem more ambivalent, about most things really, and an undercurrent of young women who are trying to separate themselves from feminism.
This turned into a ramble...


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

... as if most of women were ever connected to feminism in the first place lol


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Pete Beale said:


> We are worse off then. :b
> 
> I was just thinking of a strong, naturally basic instinct and desire some women have, to compare it to. There are some women who desperately want to be a mother but can't for whatever reason, and it haunts and bothers them everyday. I feel so sorry for them and all the people who really crave intimacy with someone, but can't find it. :frown2:


Depends on if you view it qualitatively vs quantitatively I guess. I think on average less women care about that to an extreme degree but obviously some do a lot. It doesn't seem to be a base instinct though imo. It doesn't seem as base as hunger/sex drive. And it seems like people throughout history have had to engage in a lot of socialised efforts to try and convince women to want to have kids, which they don't have to do with actual instincts.

https://theestablishment.co/the-mat...eve-got-the-science-to-prove-it-936312b316f0/



> "The maternal drive can be hormonally influenced, for example by pregnancy. This is the same in other mammals. Once the offspring is there in front of them, that's when the maternal drive generally kicks in - but not always even then."


The true comparison can only be the female sex drive, which of course is lower on average. But the 'sex drive' alone isn't the sole influencer of the desperation. There are people with neuroatypicality who have high sex drives but little desire to engage in sexual behaviour with other people (or they'll only do it under weirdly specific circumstances like BDSM.) Some people also have low sex drives but a strong desire to have a relationship or even sex (like people who are frustrated by their lack of desire.) The media makes sex seem amazing so some people are just like 'damn, I need to find a way to have great sex' and keep having bad sex hoping it will get good or something. These are all possibilities.

Also related






'something else has to happen this is bull****' lol.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Karsten said:


> Men who go out and shoot people will never get an ounce of sympathy from me.* I don't think it's very wise to conflate being an incel with being a mass shooter.* It takes a special kind of whackaloon to shoot innocent people, incel or not.
> 
> There's always going to be losers in any competitive system. *Dating is a competitive system*. I don't see a way to resolve this issue. Even if you could make all the incels today socially fluent, people from another spot on the ladder will drop to fill that void.
> 
> ...


 I am still trying to get past the fact that someone put "incels" with homeless people! Granted, there is bitterness in the realm of involuntary celibacy, but that needs to be worked on. Use it to your advantage. I see people in bad relationships. Even in good ones, there may not be a lot of sex. When you get down to it, it's a faulty mindset - just one of many.


Yes, it is, and people lose out - both parties.


Everybody wants to be loved, but when it's oversexualized, in comes the bitterness. To love someone, one must learn to love himself first.


Yes, but it doesn't always occur in one's 20's. I figure that since I am a guy, and even President Trump fathered a child at FIFTY-NINE, and that sone just turned 13, I am in good shape at 43. I am working on myself and starting to notice things outside of the SA walls that I have been closed in for years. Ultimately, and this is for SAers - not just "incels" - we MUST think outside ourselves and not put "outsiders" in automatic bad categories. it is simply not fair to them.....or you.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

SorryForMyEnglish said:


> Omg women can want to be mothers for lots of ****ed up reasons that don't help a child at all and make things ****ed up for the child and then adult. There's no 'maternal instinct' whatsoever. And I doubt men are ''naturally'' this way either. Compulsive sexuality is also imposed on them. And all the violence and agressiveness that comes with it and pornography are the opposite of ''natural'', ''evolutionary'', and ''procreating''.


I know some woman have no maternal instinct and have kids to use them or abuse them.

I know that if I was born thousands of years ago with no knowledge of anything I'd still be a horn dog for pretty vanilla sex and love doing fun things with a woman. I'd still just love a womans company.


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## funnynihilist (Jul 29, 2014)

SorryForMyEnglish said:


> ... as if most of women were ever connected to feminism in the first place lol


Most women I have met in my life have carried feminist ideals even if they didn't call themselves feminists. It's pretty much become a part of the culture at this point.


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

Pete Beale said:


> I know some woman have no maternal instinct and have kids to use them or abuse them.
> 
> I know that if I was born thousands of years ago with no knowledge of anything I'd still be a horn dog for pretty vanilla sex and love doing fun things with a woman. I'd still just love a womans company.


No, it doesn't work like that. It's not about 'maternal instinct' at all. All humans can care for babies, including men. And men like those women can project stuff onto their children because of their own childhood and parents and abuse them. Also there were times when it was happening constantly and to everybody. You can't claim they didn't have ''instinct''. It's because of historical context and evolving of humanity. In ancient times children were killed, abused and uncared for left and right.

So? Women wouldn't want similar things or they'd want them less cause of their ''different instinct''?


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

Mmm well from a historical/survival point of view, society probably needed outcasts & stragglers so that other large predators would have something to eat & would be more inclined to leave the main pack alone with the percieved more suitable genetic stock, obsolete evolutionary trait maybe :um


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

funnynihilist said:


> Society only sees the male sex drive as useful if:
> A. The guy has.markers of good DNA and will make beautiful babies
> B. If the sex drive can be used as motivation to keep the man working. Sex as reward.
> C. If his sex drive can be monetized. Porn, marketing, etc.
> ...


I've posted this lots of times in different posts, so maybe you've seen it but:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2014.01011/full

There's 'feminism' and then feminism


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

Gosh, stop talking about genetics and evolution when it's about developmental childhood traumas, ****ty parents and male entitlement.

Omg, PersephoneTheDread, what a bull**** ''study'' lol performed by men, of course.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

millenniumman75 said:


> *I am still trying to get past the fact that someone put "incels" with homeless people! * Granted, there is bitterness in the realm of involuntary celibacy, but that needs to be worked on. Use it to your advantage. I see people in bad relationships. Even in good ones, there may not be a lot of sex. When you get down to it, it's a faulty mindset - just one of many.
> 
> 
> Yes, it is, and people lose out - both parties.
> ...


Hey sup. Yeah the males who are low in society this includes homeless people, incels, and other groups of men. In case there's some confusion I wasn't suggesting incels are all homeless or vice versa. Incel is an ideological label that some struggling men have adopted.



SorryForMyEnglish said:


> Gosh, stop talking about genetics and evolution when it's about developmental childhood traumas, ****ty parents and male entitlement.
> 
> Omg, PersephoneTheDread, what a bull**** ''study'' lol performed by men, of course.


You're going to have to do better to describe why it's bull**** then it was performed by men lol. You can debate that the use of the world 'masculine' is bull****, and digit ratios are a bit of a meme (or at least not as useful as many people make out as indicators of anything,) but I don't really find the personality findings here surprising based on anecdotal evidence at all lol.


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## funnynihilist (Jul 29, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I've posted this lots of times in different posts, so maybe you've seen it but:
> 
> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2014.01011/full
> 
> There's 'feminism' and then feminism


That's a very interesting article!


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> You're going to have to do better to describe why it's bull**** then it was performed by men lol. You can debate that the use of the world 'masculine' is bull****, and digit ratios are a bit of a meme (or at least not as useful as many people make out as indicators of anything,) but I don't really find the personality findings here surprising based on anecdotal evidence at all lol.


I didn't say it was bull**** because it was performed by men. I said it was bull**** and then not surprisingly performed by men cause it's full of their agenda and lack of understanding of what feminism 101 is even. I don't have time and energy to fully read this anecdote, I just looked through it and that's all. Lazy ordinary sexist thinking is used in there and in order to understand feminism you should try better than that cause it's a non-mainstream ideology opposing ordinary sexist thinking. You're just stuck with these ''masculinity'' and ''femininity'' concepts and that they're somehow biological. This ''study'' is like reading a random post on here or anywhere else across the web. Of course, women who don't afraid to be different and deprived of male attention are gonna be feminists and these things are the opposite of what most women are socialized into so of course the percentage will be low.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SorryForMyEnglish said:


> I didn't say it was bull**** because it was performed by men. I said it was bull**** and then not surprisingly performed by men cause it's full of their agenda and lack of understanding of what feminism 101 is even. I don't have time and energy to fully read this *anecdote*, I just looked through it and that's all. Lazy ordinary sexist thinking is used in there and in order to understand feminism you should try better than that cause it's a non-mainstream ideology opposing ordinary sexist thinking. You're just stuck with these ''masculinity'' and ''femininity'' concepts and that they're somehow biological. This ''study'' is like reading a random post on here or anywhere else across the web. Of course, women who don't afraid to be different and deprived of male attention are gonna be feminists and these things are the opposite of what most women are socialized into so of course the percentage will be low.


Anecdote what? You're an anecdote this is a scientific paper.

This is how they define feminist in the paper (I'm not sure how you could even disagree with this part):



> The feminist paradox, or the dissociation between feminist self-identification and belief in equality, and the alleged misrepresentation in the media all suggest an underlying inconsistency or conflict, to which we will now turn our attention. While we are wary of misrepresenting contemporary feminism, there seem to be three central and characteristic beliefs: (1) A rejection of the idea of innate psychological differences between the sexes (Pinker, 2002, pp. 340-350; Hyde, 2005; Fine, 2010), which entails the view that sex-roles are arbitrary and interchangeable. (2) Sex differences are social constructions, meaning that they are arbitrary, and a function of social roles, structures, socialization, and attitudes rather than a result of essential and innate differences (e.g., Bussey and Bandura, 1999; Ridgeway, 2001). (3) There are general power imbalances between males and females, that are part of a social and gendered power structure (Williams and Wittig, 1997, p. 895; for a discussion, see Stewart and McDermott, 2004). Based on this model, males are seen as structurally advantaged economically, politically, socially, and sexually (Lyness and Thompson, 1997).


They were looking specifically at feminist activists which they used this definition for:



> An operational definition of a feminist activist would be someone who engages in organized feminist activity, such as political writing, public debate, and attending feminist conferences and political meetings. Some impression of how common feminist activists might be can be gleaned from the proportion of the population who voted for the Swedish feminist party, Feministiskt Initiativ (Fi), namely 0.7 and 0.4% in the 2006 and 2010 government elections. Subtracting some 20% male voters, one out of somewhere between every 150 and 400 women voted for Fi. To obtain a sample that reflects the normal distribution (N = ~30) therefore requires a selection from 4-12 thousand of the general population. These are of course very rough figures, but it seems safe to say that there be will at least two orders of magnitude between the number of individuals responding to some form of feminism instrument and a valid sample selected on the basis of that instrument. It remains questionable if this approach would be effective, however, because feminism instruments have poor psychometric properties and do not sufficiently represent the more radical beliefs that would distinguish feminist activists from other self-identified feminists (e.g., Henley et al., 1998; Fischer et al., 2000). We therefore recruited our sample directly from the operational definition, that is, attendees at a feminist conference in Sweden. This public one-day event was advertised through posters, flyers, and social internet media, and featured some 20 talks and lectures in several parallel sessions, presented by political and other interest organizations. In the conference hall we set up a table and a sign saying (translated from Swedish) "Answer a few questions and image your hands in exchange for fruit or candy. Your participation is anonymous1." We surmised that any mention of feminism, and the possible connection between feminism and biomarkers in particular, would have deterred attendees from contributing. In order to maximize participation, therefore, we did not ask them if they self-defined as feminists, and did not disclose the purpose of the study.
> 
> In total, 35 attendees participated in data collection over the course of the whole conference day, mostly when moving between rooms, in exchange for items of fruit or candy. To ensure anonymity no biographical information was collected, and sex and age were assessed visually (20-45 years). The total number of attendants was estimated at ∼100 over the day and the female-to-male ratio to ∼2/3. Twenty-five of the respondents were female and hence were eligible for inclusion in the analyses, which means that our sample included ∼35% of the female attendees.


They also kind of went out of their way to illustrate points like this in the discussion:



> *Moreover, the target population studied here is not necessarily representative for anyone who sympathizes with feminism or self-identifies as a feminist. As our data pertain to feminist activists,* we cannot and do not bring them to bear on women in general. The only connection to women in general consists of figures and statistics based on the works of other scholars cited herein. *It would therefore be logically incorrect to infer that, for example, all feminist activists are masculinized or that all groups that are more masculinized are also feminist activists.*


(I'm not going to quote the whole thing, I've already quoted loads here so..)

Anyway this was what they found in regards to social dominance:



> Social dominance was measured with the revised Mark VI version of the Ray Directiveness scale (Ray and Lovejoy, 1984), which includes items like "Are you the sort of person who always likes to get your own way?," "Do you tend to boss people around?," "Would you rather take orders than give them?," and "Would you avoid a job which required you to supervise other people?" The Directiveness scale was employed on the basis that it exhibits a high internal consistency, is balanced against acquiescence, and has been validated in demographically representative samples of the Australian population (Ray and Lovejoy, 1988 ). Finally, it is a substantial predictor of self-report indicators of masculine versus feminine orientation in both males and females, including the full range of masculine-feminine orientation, probably because it specifically taps "aggressive dominance" (Ray and Lovejoy, 1988 ). The original instrument was translated to Swedish by way of backtranslation according to established practices (Van de Vijver and Hambleton, 1996). The 14 Directiveness items were presented in a paper questionnaire with a five-step Likert type response scale ranging from "Strongly disagree" to "Strongly agree."





> Figure 2 details results for Directiveness, demonstrating again that the study sample scores higher than both typical females and typical males. Finally, we examined correlations between left and right hand digit ratios and Directiveness, as summarized in Table 3. The reliability of 2D:4D was computed from the inter-rater reliabilities for each finger, i.e., sqrt(0.990 × 0.994) = 0.9920. The Directiveness instrument is unidimensional per the nature of the items, and the standardized Cronbach's alpha (0.8233, N = 24) was therefore taken as an estimate of its reliability (Schmitt, 1996). All correlations corrected for reliability were statistically significant (p < 0.05), as were all raw correlations but that between left hand 2D:4D and Directiveness.


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## 0589471 (Apr 21, 2012)

SplendidBob said:


> Incels (not in the literal meaning of the word, but the used meaning)_ do_ act like they are entitled to sex. They act like women are a resource that should be distributed "fairly" (which just means, they want sex), ignoring that women actually should have the right to choose.
> 
> Which is true. It is far more important that people can say no to sex than that other people can force them to have sex. That this isn't obvious is beyond disturbing.
> 
> ...


x100000000 best post. thank you Bob








cheers


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

@Persephone The Dread They were saying that it's about ''biological differences between women''. Of course feminist women are exceptional, but not biologically so. Existentionally and/or thanks to nurturing. This ''biological'' stuff is fatalistic because it means only certain women will always be interested in liberation so it serves a certain agenda and it's just false. They're not the mutant women these men are trying to paint them as. Actually if you look at carricatures of feminists they made during the Suffragette movement and then the Second wave and especially about Andrea Dworkin based on sexist stereotypes, collective fears etc the point and the subtext of the ''study'' is the same as those obviously politically-inclined carricatures.


----------



## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

VIncymon said:


> Not in the exact order but here goes
> 
> (1) Dating is competitive I know. But where is the harm in an older married successful man...giving younger men dating advice/mentoring ? They are not his competition.
> 
> That's like saying medicine is competitive so no doctors should teach other doctors....but if you are a Doctor with 10 yrs of tenure and a thriving practice...there is no harm to you in teaching an intern. By the time the intern becomes a successful Doctor you'd probably be retired.


This already happens though. I don't know how there could actually be _more_ information on dating and succeeding with women. Instead of paying attention to this, they go to their incel echo chambers where "the problem" is something wrong with women. Everyone knows, pretty much conclusively what women find attractive. It's so obvious, you can't not know it if you have eyes and functioning ears.

But incels don't care, they don't listen, they don't self improve because they are too busy complaining about women, and nose to forehead ratios or whatever things they can't change.



VIncymon said:


> (2) A woman doesn't have to have sex with a guy to help him build social skills. I have asked girls for advice on dressing and conversation topics etc.


And again, its not hard to find the clothing that women find attractive, or conversation topics. Pinterest. Youtube. Watch TV. Can't incels do _anything_ themselves? Can't they look at youtube? No, because youtube isn't women farms. Why are women obligated to teach them what is painfully obvious? Especially when they hate women and will probably tell them they are ****s or try to kill them.



VIncymon said:


> (3) "*They do not want help"*I believe there are incels out there who would appreciate help if we weren't too busy insulting them and telling them "figure it out on your own."


Never in all of history has there been so much help on how to attract women. Seriously. What exactly do they need to know that they don't already? Maybe the problem is that women find incels repellent because they are covered in urine because "women didn't teach incels how to take their trousers off when using the toilet". Have you ever tried to tell an incel that "average looking men get women" for example?

Incel: Only 8/10 men get sex
Bob: Look outside your window
Incel: Why?
Bob: Because there are average looking men with women walking by *right now*
Incel: They are just super rich
Bob: Even the ones with holes in their clothing?
Incel: The femals don't have sex with them and are just banging an 8/10 chad behind their backs
Bob: How do you know?
Incel: Because only 8/10 men get sex.



VIncymon said:


> And a 4th point....I believe if we are more aware of this problem then maybe we can catch them as teenagers before they develop into incels who cannot be convinced.


Finally, incels cannot be convinced. So what's the point in spending money trying to convince them?

The other option, just ban their echo chambers so they can't indoctrinate youngsters.



VIncymon said:


> Maybe have trained psychiatrists in schools who know about Social Anxiety so that they can spot kids who have it and help them b4 its too late


Always a fan of more funding for SA, but I think incels are more about personality disorders than SA (narcissism).

@Persephone The Dread, she has got you there. That will teach you to post studies.

"bah, the author of that study had a man as a father, it has the stench of the patriarchy all over it. Only studies by clean feminist women, born of two women counts as valid evidence".


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## exceptionalfool (Nov 30, 2018)

People lose their jobs over insensitive comments about group X, but others are given high five's for laughing at and demeaning group Y. That is what I take from this post.

It's almost like you MUST feel sorry for and recognize the plight of _some_ folks, but only the ones that society tells you to feel sorry for. There is no basic sense of compassion, it's all selectively applied to what's fashionable.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

exceptionalfool said:


> People lose their jobs over insensitive comments about group X, but others are given high five's for laughing at and demeaning group Y. That is what I take from this post.
> 
> It's almost like you MUST feel sorry for and recognize the plight of _some_ folks, but only the ones that society tells you to feel sorry for. There is no basic sense of compassion, it's all selectively applied to what's fashionable.


It's not fashionable, incels are awful people, why should they get compassion?

I typed in "incel forum" on google. Went onto the first forum I found. This was a random thread.



> 1. women don't have to approach men now, they just go online.
> 
> 2. Women don't have to date down anymore. Example, *my sister is fat and ugly* but in medical school. Her only option is some *4/10, Nigerian ph.d student with no money*. Thinks about dating him. She makes an online dating account. Gets loads of matches. Dates a 6/10 Engineer with quite a lot of money. Before she would have to date some 4/10, Nigerian ph.d student with no money(her only option)


"Why won't society help these brave, wonderful men?".


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## Suchness (Aug 13, 2011)

Why not help them lol?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SorryForMyEnglish said:


> @Persephone The Dread They were saying that it's about ''biological differences between women''. Of course feminist women are exceptional, but not biologically so. Existentionally and/or thanks to nurturing. This ''biological'' stuff is fatalistic because it means only certain women will always be interested in liberation so it serves a certain agenda and it's just false. They're not the mutant women these men are trying to paint them as. Actually if you look at carricatures of feminists they made during the Suffragette movement and then the Second wave and especially about Andrea Dworkin based on sexist stereotypes, collective fears etc the point and the subtext of the ''study'' is the same as those obviously politically-inclined carricatures.


It predicts that certain women are more inclined to be drawn to feminism but not that others can't be. It says that in the paper even:



> It would therefore be logically incorrect to infer that, for example, all feminist activists are masculinized or that all groups that are more masculinized are also feminist activists.


As for 'mutant women,' there's nothing wrong with those traits really, they could be useful depending on how they are channeled and the context and factoring in a person's overall abilities and personality.

Also as a general rule people don't like outspoken people who aren't successful or 'high status' essentially. Disagreeableness isn't a popular trait, it's just something that's tolerated in certain people because most people put other stuff ahead of cooperation depending on the context. And even then they will still resent that person most of the time. They don't genuinely like them, it's just a lot of people are sycophantic.

Honestly though I think a lot of women feel patronised, they don't like being told that they're brainwashed and that a lot of what they think/feel/want is a result of brainwashing. If you don't hold certain beliefs/values/desires etc in the first place, (whether that's a result of socialisation or otherwise,) it's easy enough to reject them.


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## exceptionalfool (Nov 30, 2018)

SplendidBob said:


> It's not fashionable, incels are awful people, why should they get compassion?
> 
> I typed in "incel forum" on google. Went onto the first forum I found. This was a random thread.
> 
> "Why won't society help these brave, wonderful men?".


We're all awful people. Just don't tell me that I need to be sensitive to folks who are sheltered underneath the umbrella while those who stand outside of it are laughed at and told to kick rocks.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

exceptionalfool said:


> People lose their jobs over insensitive comments about group X, but others are given high five's for laughing at and demeaning group Y. That is what I take from this post.
> 
> It's almost like you MUST feel sorry for and recognize the plight of _some_ folks, but only the ones that society tells you to feel sorry for. There is no basic sense of compassion, it's all selectively applied to what's fashionable.


I think it's probably more instinctive than that, but yeah.

The group in question don't make it easy at all since most do have terrible personalities, though successful people who are just as terrible generally get by so we shouldn't pretend that that's the sole reason why they're in their position.

Their strategy though as far as I can tell is to just try and get more and more numbers until mainstream society notices. Well society has so that was successful, but society doesn't care and that's a much more difficult problem to solve.

I imagine as time goes on a lot of people will be priced out of sex robots these are already inhibitively expensive:






but it's a potential solution in the long term.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

I have a lot of empathy for people who are undesirable and lonely, since I'm in the same boat, and I do think a lot of people are too dismissive of just how painful that kind of experience can be. There's a huge difference between choosing to be single and being completely undesirable. But some of these guys sure do make it difficult to feel empathy for them.

I have tried to help on many occasions but not many people seem all that interested in what I have to say. I think because I'm not really a man or a woman so my opinion is irrelevant. I just don't see any point trying to help them anymore, tbh.



Persephone The Dread said:


> sex robots


Harmony totally got friendzoned in that video.


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## iAmCodeMonkey (May 23, 2010)

opcorn


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

truant said:


> I have a lot of empathy for people who are undesirable and lonely, since I'm in the same boat, and I do think a lot of people are too dismissive of just how painful that kind of experience can be. There's a huge difference between choosing to be single and being completely undesirable. But some of these guys sure do make it difficult to feel empathy for them.
> 
> I have tried to help on many occasions but not many people seem all that interested in what I have to say. I think because I'm not really a man or a woman so my opinion is irrelevant. I just don't see any point trying to help them anymore, tbh.
> 
> Harmony totally got friendzoned in that video.


Poor Harmony, robot friendzoning will be a hot topic in 2163 I think.


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> It predicts that certain women are more inclined to be drawn to feminism but not that others can't be. It says that in the paper even:
> 
> As for 'mutant women,' there's nothing wrong with those traits really, they could be useful depending on how they are channeled and the context and factoring in a person's overall abilities and personality.
> 
> ...


''Blahblahblahblah'' is all I can see. There's no point in this talk or this ''study''. All of the women don't have to be feminists in order for feminists to make changes. They just join feminists on stuff they want to protest against or/and for because it's about the lives they're living. I see no use in talk about ''disagreeable women'' being disliked despite being followed unless you're throwing me shades which I saw you doing earlier and which is irrelevant to the topic. ''Go on and try to tear me down I will be rising from the ground like a skyscraper'' is all I can say to that.

I was arguing with feminists on some things, was patronized in one online feminist community several years ago, blocked and was told to read some feminist books in order not to argue about things I didn't have a clue about. I did and I couldn't be more grateful for that experience. It's a political movement, not a safe space for everyone to be catered to 24/7. ''Social anxiety support'' forum is not even a safe space depsite ''trying hard'' and presenting itself as such. So why should movement for women's liberation be therapy, movement and lots of other things at once? It's impossible. I find it very interesting and very strange that people have such high standarts and demands only for feminist movement.
Of course, there is actual crossing boundaries that some (many) feminists in certain feminist communities do and it's not good. But, please, being told that the group you belong to is historically oppressed and talking about feminist concepts, the way sexism manifests itself in society and women's herstory is not. Of course, realizing that your whole life is a lie on a personal level is never pleasurable. So is getting to know about your unresolved traumas, but it's necessary for a change and it's good in the long term. Nobody forces anyone into anything though. Nobody minds that you will continue living in your bubble and you will be only passively responding to already made societal changes over time if they will be made when you'll still be alive. Just as you noted, this is how the majority of people operate due to being rigid-minded and conformist.



Persephone The Dread said:


> I imagine as time goes on a lot of people will be priced out of sex robots these are already inhibitively expensive:
> 
> but it's a potential solution in the long term.


Or since they have this money they could invest it into attachment-based therapy instead, cure their SPD and become able to handle relationships with real people and be decent to them.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

@SorryForMyEnglish

I can't really be bothered to talk to you anymore. I was trying to explain why a lot of feminist activists don't actually win anyone over. I really don't care either way though. I like seeing people create chaos generally so.

I'm pretty sure that most if not all incels don't have SzPD. And most of the people buying sex robots generally won't have SzPD.

Actually sorry I do have to point something out:


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

@exceptionalfool we can point you in the direction of some excellent youtube tutorials, but we can't give you the women farms you desire. Sorry.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

SplendidBob said:


> "Why won't society help these brave, wonderful men?".


:lol :lol

Also, that poor Nigerian p.hd student. Who's going to help him get laid.


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

Hmm I see the thread is still open thats good. I want it to stay open....these are issues that need discussing.

Because as much as some here may hate to admit....Incels and the SA community do intersect ...so it IS of interest to us, to do more than the rest of society (ie just ignoring them and calling them pathetic)

Gotta go to work...will check up on this thread later


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

@Persephone The Dread Well you're wrong then cause to me it seems only seriously f-ed up in early childhood people would not feel weird and believe they're having relationships with robots and dolls. Maybe not only schizoid, idk. I mean you have to have male socialization therefore necrophilic male sexuality to begin with, of course, but I don't think it would work the same way with someone who had an overall good and supportive caregiver as a baby/little child. Incels definitely had these problems because healthier people don't behave the way they do and they don't even experience things they do. I'm not a psychologist though. I could also be to optimistic about the state of manhood.

I don't think women have to be won over by someone's charms to start bothering about their own lives on this planet as women and want to become more conscious about it. It's too much to ask.


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

SplendidBob said:


> VIncymon said:
> 
> 
> > Not in the exact order but here goes
> ...


Dood, seriously....you could have said all of this without the repeated insults
Like the "covered in urine" comment.

Like someone else said its almost like there is a subconscious INSTINCT to be repulsed by these guys.

What is it ? Are you afraid that showing any signs of compassion to incels makes you less attractive ?

I can just as easily find feminist blogs filled with male-bashing but guess what....nobody is shutting down THEIR blogs.

Dood....I dont know how else to say it 
...MEN HAVE TO HELP MEN.....i know it is a strange and foreign concept to us as a group...but we have to help each other. We have to help the weaker ones.

Imagine if SA was treated stigmatized as incels.

If the vast majority of people were like
"#### these stinky SA losers who dont know how to socialize ...we dont want to associate with them....we normal people should ban together to trample the SA losers, shut down SAS and any other internet forum bcuz nobody cares or wants to hear about SA."

Thats exactly how you sound man. Chill.
These are brothers who are hurting.

Im a black man and Im sure if I travel to the ghetto, I can find a black man my age who has some extreme thoughts about white people....but that doesnt mean the suffering of blacks in the ghetto isnt a real issue


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

@VIncymon incels frustrate the hell out of me.

I am negative towards them because of their attitudes, their beliefs, and their _total unwillingness_ to be rational. They ask for help and just ignore it, its really hard to show compassion to people who wont see any reason and who, whenever they pop up seem to be _really_ unpleasant people.

I don't know what to say to you though, I mean like I say, there couldn't be _more_ information out there on how to succeed with women. I still am at a loss as to what help we are supposed to give them, because we can't give them what they want, _women who will have sex with them_. That seems to be all they want, they wont budge an inch and take any responsibility for their situation at all.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Poor Harmony, robot friendzoning will be a hot topic in 2163 I think.


The year robot AI becomes sophisticated enough for them to friendzone their owners.



SorryForMyEnglish said:


> Or since they have this money they could invest it into attachment-based therapy instead, cure their SPD and become able to handle relationships with real people and be decent to them.


Not everyone who wants a relationship is going to be able to find a relationship, regardless of how mentally healthy they are and how decently they treat other people. And not everyone wants a relationship, nor is there anything wrong with not wanting a relationship.

It's quite a leap to assume that 'not being able to find/not wanting to have a relationship' automatically implies 'you don't know how to treat people decently'.


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## Musicfan (Mar 4, 2017)

WillYouStopDave said:


> There were always "incels". The only difference is that they had better coping methods than threatening to kill people if they didn't get laid.
> 
> There was a time (believe it or not) when people who didn't get what they wanted just lived with it and moved on.


Pretty much yeah.



3stacks said:


> Give em free fleshlights


Best solution in this thread :lol


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

women: discriminated against for fairly uniform reasons.

incel: discriminated against? idk. pretty much universally disliked. incel for varied reasons. not really an easily identifiable group, only a group via self-identification (why you would do that idk) or identified by being misogynistic/pathetic etc. it's a symptom rather than discrimination by irrelevant criteria. the criteria is relevant: unlikable traits.

if you've been placed in a low status group against your will... for relevant or possibly irrelevant reasons. I mean the thing you need to show is what is the error that lead to this.

there is already a group of people that a large proportion of want a relationship: single people. is the only difference between incel and single that they are unable to access casual sex? a fixation on that distinction is not really appealing.


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## SorryForMyEnglish (Oct 9, 2014)

truant said:


> Not everyone who wants a relationship is going to be able to find a relationship, regardless of how mentally healthy they are and how decently they treat other people. And not everyone wants a relationship, nor is there anything wrong with not wanting a relationship.
> 
> It's quite a leap to assume that 'not being able to find/not wanting to have a relationship' automatically implies 'you don't know how to treat people decently'.


But they don't. They're misogynistic and they think women owe them.

I do sympathize with them due to the fact that they have traumas and they were so deeply ''damaged'' (I don't like this word, but I can't choose any other cause of my vocabulary). I sympathize pretty much with everything they're going through minus misogyny and entitlement to women, of course. Cause, well, hello they're deemed as social failures and they have these unrecognized early childhood traumas and they desperately need support and love, but not getting it. (Just like meeee).

I think if they need such doll or robot they probably do have this need of relationship. I also see those robots dehumanizing to women.


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## Beatnik (Jul 12, 2011)

VIncymon said:


> Imagine if SA was treated stigmatized as incels.


Why don't you get it already? There's a self proclaimed group called "incels" and they're awful and rightfully stigmatized. You should be using some other term for this group of people, that may be "incels" by the standards of the self proclaimed incels. We have a certain term here for those people and the issue is here constantly brought up (with poor solutions so far) It would translate into something like "displaced/excluded youngsters" Incels are the ones exclusively hating on women and killing/wanting to kill people, the stigma is there and it isn't going away.

Women are generally attracted to certain types of men and the only reason there weren't so many "left over men" before, is because society made all the women dependent on men, therefore men didn't need to be anything "special" to get women. Feminism liberated women and it resulted lot of lonely men, but women's freedom was NOT made directly on the expense of men, it was a side effect. If we put women back to kitchen to help men get laid, it would be done DIRECTLY with the expense of women.

What are the possible solutions then?

-Women like what they like, so obviously changing their mind is out of the question.
-"Dating training" would work for some, but to me that sounds like they would just have put on an act, and that's bad.
-There are extremely "unattractive" men in relationships, but they're in a relationship with "unattractive" women. "Left over men" are not willing to lower their standards.

What men, who can't attract women have to do, is to accept the facts and their possibilities. People are born blind, but they learn to live with it and they don't blame people with eyesight. Those who can't attract women are nothing but the victims of their genetics (and possibly traumatic events, etc. too) I have SA plus some other anxieties, but I have accepted the fact that it's not just unattractive in the eyes of the women, but also I could never be able to be myself in a relationship and not having the extreme 24/7 stress. I hang on the positives sides of the single life and I'm interested in getting a "doll" and really looking forward all the technological advances in robotics too...

If you think love dolls and virtual reality is "unnatural" it isn't, it's just something new. Getting around in a wheelchair is unnatural too, unless you're paralytic.


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## exceptionalfool (Nov 30, 2018)

SplendidBob said:


> @exceptionalfool we can point you in the direction of some excellent youtube tutorials, but we can't give you the women farms you desire. Sorry.


You know nothing about me and you totally ignored my point, so I'll thank you not to address or insult me like that. I can agree to disagree.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SorryForMyEnglish said:


> @Persephone The Dread Well you're wrong then cause to me it seems only seriously f-ed up in early childhood people would not feel weird and believe they're having relationships with robots and dolls. Maybe not only schizoid, idk. I mean you have to have male socialization therefore necrophilic male sexuality to begin with, of course, but I don't think it would work the same way with someone who had an overall good and supportive caregiver as a baby/little child. Incels definitely had these problems because healthier people don't behave the way they do and they don't even experience things they do. I'm not a psychologist though. I could also be to optimistic about the state of manhood.
> 
> I don't think women have to be won over by someone's charms to start bothering about their own lives on this planet as women and want to become more conscious about it. It's too much to ask.


I don't think necrophilia has anything to do with it, except maybe in the case of the _woman _ who bought all the zombie child girl dolls and married one. She might have been but it's hard to say what the fantasy there was.

Well the thread is about incels and I'm sure they have all kinds of mental illnesses but I doubt in most cases the illness in question is SzPD. Sure some schizoids will buy robots, I'd potentially consider getting one.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

SorryForMyEnglish said:


> But they don't. They're misogynistic and they think women owe them.


Many men who are in the Incel community are, but not every man who is involuntarily celibate is.



SorryForMyEnglish said:


> I do sympathize with them due to the fact that they have traumas and they were so deeply ''damaged'' (I don't like this word, but I can't choose any other cause of my vocabulary). I sympathize pretty much with everything they're going through minus misogyny and entitlement to women, of course. Cause, well, hello they're deemed as social failures and they have these unrecognized early childhood traumas and they desperately need support and love, but not getting it. (Just like meeee).


Many people have had childhood traumas. But those traumas do not prevent attractive men (who are just as likely to be misogynistic) from finding partners.

It seems odd to focus on childhood trauma when there is no direct correlation between involuntary celibacy and trauma. That sounds like a double-standard. Could therapy benefit these men? Probably. It will help some of them to accept being single, and it might help make some of them more attractive partners. But a lot of these men are single because they are physically/socially unattractive, not because they've had childhood traumas. My childhood traumas are not the reason I can't get a date.



> I think if they need such doll or robot they probably do have this need of relationship.


These dolls are fancy vibrators for men. If a woman prefers using a vibrator over dating, should she be in therapy? Does that mean she doesn't know how to treat other people decently? Or is it possible that some men can't find, or don't want, a relationship and are just looking for the best toy available?



> I also see those robots dehumanizing to women.


How? Explain it to me.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

exceptionalfool said:


> You know nothing about me and you totally ignored my point, so I'll thank you not to address or insult me like that. I can agree to disagree.


You didn't make a point, you just responded with the absurd claim that "everyone is awful" when confronted with evidence showing how awful incels are. That isn't a single, lone piece of evidence, its why places like reddit ban incels and don't ban other communities, because incels are full of disgusting toxicity.

Your other point about not giving empathy unless you first receive it yourself isn't a point, its a demonstration of not having empathy (because if you did have, you would realise it doesn't work like that).

So yeh, it seems I do know something about you after all.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

VIncymon said:


> (1) Dating is competitive I know. But where is the harm in an older married successful man...giving younger men dating advice/mentoring ? They are not his competition.
> 
> That's like saying medicine is competitive so no doctors should teach other doctors....but if you are a Doctor with 10 yrs of tenure and a thriving practice...there is no harm to you in teaching an intern. By the time the intern becomes a successful Doctor you'd probably be retired.


A young aspiring doctor goes to med school. That's how they get to be residents/interns. Doctors don't go picking random people for it. They pass on their expertise to those who seek it because that's part of the profession when you're a doctor. Your comparison of giving dating advice to a doctor teaching an intern is flawed. As I said, being a doctor is a profession. Dating advice is part of someone's social life. It's not even close to the same thing.



VIncymon said:


> (2) A woman doesn't have to have sex with a guy to help him build social skills. I have asked girls for advice on dressing and conversation topics etc.


The term "incel" is short for involuntary celibate. It's about sex, not social skills.



VIncymon said:


> (3) "*They do not want help"*I believe there are incels out there who would appreciate help if we weren't too busy insulting them and telling them "figure it out on your own."
> 
> And a 4th point....I believe if we are more aware of this problem then maybe we can catch them as teenagers before they develop into incels who cannot be convinced.
> 
> Maybe have trained psychiatrists in schools who know about Social Anxiety so that they can spot kids who have it and help them b4 its too late


Social anxiety and "incel" are two different things. People with social anxiety struggle with some, most or all aspects of being social. "Incels" are pissed they're not getting laid. BIG difference.



VIncymon said:


> Sex *is* an important physical need. Part of sex education should be more than just teaching about the physical act ...but teaching young people real lessons about *how to form* a harmonious relationship that leads to sex.


Being good at forming relationships with the opposite sex is more instinct than skill. It's not something you can teach and guarantee success. Some people just have trouble with it. I've sought so much advice for making myself more attractive to women and for some reason it's difficult to take that knowledge and put it into action.

As for sex being a physical need, I can support that to a degree. My relationship ended last October. I haven't touched a woman since. Yes I am sexually frustrated these days. It's also nobody else's problem.



Pete Beale said:


> Some people don't understand just how god damn horrible it is to have a high sex drive but be crippled by anxiety etc, especially when you're in your early to mid 20's and male. You're deprived of your sexuality and your natural instinct to ****. It is as strong as a women desire to have a child. It's what you was born to do. You have this tremendous driving force that is testosterone, fighting against SA and no end of other ****. Not having sex for some is like being a drug addict who can't get a fix. I was able to get my fix but absolutely no where near enough and it drove me insane for years. It's is torturous for any person, male or female, who has a high sex drive. I had this super high sex drive and avoidant personality disorder, which are a terrible combo. ****ing awful!


I was a virgin until 27. I get it. What is anybody else supposed to do about it? Complaining about it in the way you've wrote here only turns people off because you sound like you're entitled to sex.



andy0128 said:


> When i was single for long periods i never felt the world owed me something. I guess the problem is that in all likelihood the incel is someone who has let themself go in terms of appearance or *rules out dating an unattractive category of woman (while pretending to have tried everyone)* or has zero interest in reading some books on how to interact with females or is just too scared to talk to them.


I'll argue with this point based on my experience. In my early days of sexual activity, I did just that... went on a date with a woman I didn't find attractive and ended up in her bed. It was horrible. I felt no satisfaction after figuring getting to have sex would override the fact there was nothing about her that I found physically attractive. I've still had sex much, much less than most men my age and I would rather stay single and celibate for the rest of my life than date and/or have sex with a woman I'm not attracted to.

I'm not going through anymore of this thread. The notion of "incels" as a group drives me bonkers.


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

SplendidBob said:


> @VIncymon incels frustrate the hell out of me.
> 
> I am negative towards them because of their attitudes, their beliefs, and their _total unwillingness_ to be rational. They ask for help and just ignore it, its really hard to show compassion to people who wont see any reason and who, whenever they pop up seem to be _really_ unpleasant people.
> 
> I don't know what to say to you though, I mean like I say, there couldn't be _more_ information out there on how to succeed with women. I still am at a loss as to what help we are supposed to give them, because we can't give them what they want, _women who will have sex with them_. That seems to be all they want, they wont budge an inch and take any responsibility for their situation at all.


Ok fine then, continue to be negative insult them. Well lets just continue to ignore and marginalize them ....because that has been working great so far in reducing the # of random acts of violence.

Because maeginalization and hatred towards social outcast has always helped solved social ills right ???


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

@SplendidBob

How is this kind of negative attitude towards incels any better than harbouring hatred/disgust to the entire islam community due to the terrorist acts....and trust me there are ALOT of terrorists who use the name of Islam for their dispicable acts.

Yet society still sees it as taboo to discriminate Muslims no matter hoe many islamic terrorist groups exist.

So why is it so hard for ppl to consider that not all Incels are the WOMAN-HATER type?

That just because some have completely tarnished the name with mysoginist violence...it doesnt mean the rest are non deserving of sympathy ?


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

VIncymon said:


> How is this kind of negative attitude towards incels any better than harbouring hatred/disgust to the entire islam community due to the terrorist acts....and trust me there are ALOT of terrorists who use the name of Islam for their dispicable acts.
> 
> Yet society still sees it as taboo to discriminate Muslims no matter hoe many islamic terrorist groups exist.


Because those who believe in human rights believe that people should be free to follow any religion they choose, so long as they are peaceful. It's not right to vilify peaceful Muslims who do not support those who terrorize in its name.

"Incels" are different. They are who they are because they think they are entitled to sex with women. There is nothing reasonable about that.



VIncymon said:


> Ok fine then, continue to be negative insult them. Well lets just continue to ignore and marginalize them ....because that has been working great so far in reducing the # of random acts of violence.


The moment an "incel" (or any other social outcast) becomes violent, the person being an "incel" or outcast is no longer relevant. I've been an outcast my whole f***ing life and I've never had the slightest urge to bring harm to anyone. Nobody should be coddled to hope they don't turn violent, especially with "incels", who are just angry they're not getting laid and have no self-control.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Because why would you bother putting in the work to change yourself for the better, when you can just demand for everything to be given to you.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

This twitter accounts sometimes posts stuff with data on sex/relationships:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1114154029570056200
https://twitter.com/toad_spotted

a year ago a bunch of people were talking about incels, including some mainstream outlets but I don't think people have been recently. Something must have happened then, was that when one of those van attacks happened? Maybe.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/sympathy-for-the-incel

Robin Hanson's stuff was considered very controversial, I've only skimread some of the related stuff though. I don't actually find him interesting, but I knew about him before that because I know a lot of rationalists as in the cult lmao:

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/06/comparing-income-sex-redistribution.html


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/996063236565893125


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

https://reason.com/2018/05/14/incels-are-the-product-of-an-incomplete


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

This thread is a mess. :lol


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

VIncymon said:


> @SplendidBob
> 
> How is this kind of negative attitude towards incels any better than harbouring hatred/disgust to the entire islam community due to the terrorist acts....and trust me there are ALOT of terrorists who use the name of Islam for their dispicable acts.
> 
> ...





VIncymon said:


> Ok fine then, continue to be negative insult them. Well lets just continue to ignore and marginalize them ....because that has been working great so far in reducing the # of random acts of violence.
> 
> Because maeginalization and hatred towards social outcast has always helped solved social ills right ???


Not being funny, but:

1. When a group are known for violence, anyone who then joins that group is voluntarily associating with that violence. Nobody is forcing people to self identify as incel. That incel technically means "involuntarily celibate" is a shame, because that isn't what the term actually means (and meaning is socially derived). So someone who chooses to identify under this is choosing to be associated with that meaning. The solution to not being painted with that brush is to simply not self identify as incel, identify as red pill or MGTOW instead (which don't have that same set of identifying beliefs as incels). Honestly, you are complaining about people *self identifying* as woman hating, irrational, narcissistic and entitled, and choosing to be associated with that violence. Aren't you aware this group has those associations? If people _voluntarily_ choose to be seen as that, it isn't an insult to point that out. It's not like being a Muslim, its like joining a _specific_ terrorist organisation and complaining that "not all of us are terrorists". And besides, if you look on any incel forum, the threads are literally full of this kind of toxicity. It isn't a few people, its basically all of them from what I can see (see above, where I randomly took a thread from an incel forum and posted it), which is why these kinds of forums get banned. To paint incels as simply misunderstood and not all fitting the stereotype is a bit silly, since they are choosing to self-identify this way. Can I ask you, why do incels self identify as incel rather than red pill or MGTOW? (the answer is, because the incel identity most closely matches their beliefs).

2. People have the capacity to not perform violence. There isn't ever a justification for violence, and in no way should we pander to those kinds of people in order to stop them performing violence. That some incels have performed violence isn't a reason to listen to them, its a reason _not to_, because you can't negotiate with terrorists.

3. I have already asked you multiple times what exactly are we supposed to do in order to help them? You say things like dating advice, and I have told you there is already more information on dating advice out there that it is possible to get through. You say "we should help them", and I keep asking you "well how exactly?" and you can't give me an answer. Because they just want women to have sex with them, and they want to be given that, "because its not fair".


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

PGVan said:


> I was a virgin until 27. I get it. What is anybody else supposed to do about it? Complaining about it in the way you've wrote here only turns people off because you sound like you're entitled to sex.


I don't know how the **** you've come to the conclusion that I think I'm entitled to sex. I've never felt like I'm entitled to sex. All I mentioned is how painful and frustrating it is for some people to want intimacy but rarely, if ever be able to get it. I think some people with low sex drives who are introverted and don't crave the company of the opposite sex so much, don't understand how incredibly frustrating, painful and heartbreaking it is. Some people don't understand how much of a basic need it is for some people. And it's not just sex, it's intimacy in all forms. I love being close to a woman, Being able to be myself, to be able to talk and do fun things with. To be able to cook her meals, go out for meals, go for walks etc. It's just incredibly frustrating to me that I've spent so little time having any of these things with a woman I can trust. I don't feel like I'm entitled to anything and the last thing I'd want is a woman just for sex, to use as a piece of meet. I want a friend to have a laugh with as well, to spend time with. I want a person, not just a piece of meat to lay down when I want and follow my orders.


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## Neal (Jan 14, 2012)

A lot of people just mind their own business. You can easily overstep some boundaries if you start trying help people and they weren’t very specific in what help they wanted. Hence why so many arguments pop up when those with sexual experience try to coach incels.


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

I'm still none the wiser as to how we're supposed to help incels. If they regard it as entirely down to their social deficiencies from leading a sheltered life, a traumatic childhood or genetic SA then that falls under the umbrella of social deficiencies that have to be tackled in the usual ways.



PGVan said:


> I'll argue with this point based on my experience. In my early days of sexual activity, I did just that... went on a date with a woman I didn't find attractive and ended up in her bed. It was horrible. I felt no satisfaction after figuring getting to have sex would override the fact there was nothing about her that I found physically attractive. I've still had sex much, much less than most men my age and I would rather stay single and celibate for the rest of my life than date and/or have sex with a woman I'm not attracted to.
> .


Incels though (as i understand it) genuinely feel cheated by the dating world and for them to say stuff like they aren't attracted to the women who'd want to have sex with them and then equate that tmwith being oppressed just sounds weak.

There are ways and means helping people lead better lives, of leveling the playing field, but when it comes to sex and relationships there is no way of forcing interactions. I don't see many solutions being proposed, just a lot of whining and its not at all surprising to see such unanimity on this forum concerning this subject.


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

Pete Beale said:


> s. Some people don't understand how much of a basic need it is for some people. And it's not just sex, it's intimacy in all forms. I love being close to a woman, .


We have to curb our desires sometimes. That is what separates us from animals. I can't go pouncing on any woman I'm attracted to and even guys in relationships will have to curb their instincts out of respect to their partner.
If its not just about sexual attraction then guys would have no issue with hooking up with ladies they aren't especially attracted to.


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

Who's gonna help them ? "normal" guys probably mostly think they're a bunch of weird whiney man babies, women probably think they're gonna be way to much work even they were interested & also that they are gonna be to weird or pushy & also might kill them.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

andy0128 said:


> We have to curb our desires sometimes. That is what separates us from animals. I can't go pouncing on any woman I'm attracted to and even guys in relationships will have to curb their instincts out of respect to their partner.
> If its not just about sexual attraction then guys would have no issue with hooking up with ladies they aren't especially attracted to.


It's about emotional and physical intimacy for me. I just want to be close to someone and enjoy life with them. I'm older now and it's just having someone who likes me, gives me basic human respect, and want's to get out and see places, do fun things I'm interested in the most.

Collapsed narcissist, entitled incels like the deluded Eliot Rogers are a lost cause. No one can help people like that. The worst incel sorts are like collapsed narcissists.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Pete Beale said:


> I don't know how the **** you've come to the conclusion that I think I'm entitled to sex. I've never felt like I'm entitled to sex. All I mentioned is how painful and frustrating it is for some people to want intimacy but rarely, if ever be able to get it.


I did not come to a conclusion. I said that the way you wrote out your frustrations made it sound like entitlement. One of the things I've learned going from young adult to a man in his mid-30s is how you communicate your frustrations is important.



Pete Beale said:


> It's about emotional and physical intimacy for me. I just want to be close to someone and enjoy life with them. I'm older now and it's just having someone who likes me, gives me basic human respect, and want's to get out and see places, do fun things I'm interested in the most.
> 
> Collapsed narcissist, entitled incels like the deluded Eliot Rogers are a lost cause. No one can help people like that. The worst incel sorts are like collapsed narcissists.


I'm with you here. Though for me to have both emotional and physical intimacy, I do need physical attraction as well.

As for "incels", I keep using quotation marks because I don't consider them a legitimate group. They don't want help, they want sex served to them on a platter.


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## Canadian Brotha (Jan 23, 2009)

I’ve not read most of this thread & my comment will probably annoy many but assuming the incels are American or live somewhere in which prostitution is legal if sex is ultimately the big issue then a trip to a Nevada or wherever you can go in other countries seems to me a simple solution, the “girlfriend” experience is a thing now isn’t it?


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## ThatGuy11200 (Sep 3, 2012)

Canadian Brotha said:


> I've not read most of this thread & my comment will probably annoy many but assuming the incels are American or live somewhere in which prostitution is legal if sex is ultimately the big issue then a trip to a Nevada or wherever you can go in other countries seems to me a simple solution, *the "girlfriend" experience is a thing now isn't it?*


It probably is but how much would that even cost? Also, paying someone to pretend to feel a particular way doesn't seem very fulfilling.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

PGVan said:


> I did not come to a conclusion. I said that the way you wrote out your frustrations made it sound like entitlement. One of the things I've learned going from young adult to a man in his mid-30s is how you communicate your frustrations is important.
> 
> I'm with you here. Though for me to have both emotional and physical intimacy, I do need physical attraction as well.
> 
> As for "incels", I keep using quotation marks because I don't consider them a legitimate group. They don't want help, they want sex served to them on a platter.


Yes, I need physical attraction too.

Wanting sex served up to them on a platter is unrealistic narcissistic entitlement. It's crazy.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

ThatGuy11200 said:


> It probably is but how much would that even cost? Also, paying someone to pretend to feel a particular way doesn't seem very fulfilling.


It would cost a fortune and be cringe worthy as well. I think if you're younger, just want to get your rocks off and can afford it, go for it, but the whole "GF experience" thing is so cringe worthy and fake as hell. Bringing emotions into sex with a prostitute is cringe worthy. It's so cringe worthy I've said it four times now. :b


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Just man up and ask women out. What's the point of having balls if you're not going to use them.


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## iAmCodeMonkey (May 23, 2010)

opcorn


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

nubly said:


> What's the point of having balls if you're not going to use them.


 You're supposed to play with them.


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## Canadian Brotha (Jan 23, 2009)

ThatGuy11200 said:


> It probably is but how much would that even cost? Also, paying someone to pretend to feel a particular way doesn't seem very fulfilling.


All I'm saying if particular men are focused specifically on sex then go get some...it's not a solution for more relationship oriented people but I don't know much of anything about incels other than what I read in passing which is men who for whatever reason can't get laid and feel they are owed it, if that's the case they can't say they don't have an option even if it's not ideal for them.


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

nubly said:


> What's the point of having balls if you're not going to use them.


...I don't know I was born with them, I didn't ask for them, so now it's my fault for being born : /


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

I think the problem is a negative feedback loop.

I know they always say fake it till you make it...but one of the hardest things for me to learn was to keep asking women out and pretend to be confident even if *all of my previous experiences were failures* ...that's a lot harder.

It's easy to put yourself out there and do something, if you know you are good at it, and have experience. It's much harder to put yourself out there when you are either
a) inexperienced OR
b) all your experiences were bad.

There is a reason why naruto is a fictional character. Because if Naruto was a real person with *so many things going wrong* for him ...he wouldn't be so danged cheerful and optimistic all the time.

For those of us who struggle with social interaction... putting yourself out there after years of repeated failures is very tough and emotionally exhausting....but it can be done.

So I guess...some ppl just never overcome the weight of their past failures.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

^ thank you for reminding me of this.






also this:






"Russian roulette is not the same without a gun, and since we're dubbed by 4kids we must make do without one."


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

ah the nostalgia I never actually even watched Naruto. I saw some of this on YT about a decade ago though.


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## iAmCodeMonkey (May 23, 2010)

WillYouStopDave said:


> You're supposed to play with them.


This made me laugh, i feel better already!:grin2:


blue2 said:


> ...I don't know I was born with them, I didn't ask for them, so now it's my fault for being born : /


Don't listen to him.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

Imo, I don't think it's one's civic duty to do this. On the other hand, of course if you feel disenfranchised, helpless and most importantly _victimized_ then yes, you'll feel as if you're owed something from someone who can give it. However that's not how society functions.. if you want everyone to get on the same page, great but that would mean everyone agrees on which page to fall, what that page says and what they will do. I don't think these views about incels reflect what truly happens in society. It's not views coming from a holy mountain of knowledge so much as views coming from a subjective position forced to be objectively applied to everyone else.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

nubly said:


> Just man up and ask women out. What's the point of having balls if you're not going to use them.


I don't use my balls much. I hate the testosterone they produce, but it's worth having them just for the sheer pleasure of having good scrote scratch now and again. Scratching an itch on the under side of the scrote, is one of lifes finest pleasures. Damn, it's good! It's been a while since mines itched though so I'm kinda depressed about it, but not as depressed as my inability to use the contents of my scrote much.


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## versikk (Nov 25, 2013)

Pete Beale said:


> I had this super high sex drive and avoidant personality disorder, which are a terrible combo. ****ing awful!


oh it's an experience alright.:roll



WillYouStopDave said:


> A bored human is a dangerous human. :lol


... heh....



Persephone The Dread said:


> The media makes sex seem amazing


it's not?:serious:



Persephone The Dread said:


> Honestly though I think a lot of women feel patronised, *they don't like being told that they're brainwashed and that a lot of what they think/feel/want is a result of brainwashing.* If you don't hold certain beliefs/values/desires etc in the first place, (whether that's a result of socialisation or otherwise,) it's easy enough to reject them.


sorry to bring up old crap(?)

but this, i feel, can be applied to humans in general....


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

versikk said:


> oh it's an experience alright.:roll
> 
> ... heh....
> 
> ...


A hellish experience. :frown2: I still feel like it now but it's no where near as bad as in my 20's. Raging hormones and horrible mental health problems = hell.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

versikk said:


> it's not?:serious:


For a lot of people it will never be as good as the media paints it to be.



> sorry to bring up old crap(?)
> 
> but this, i feel, can be applied to humans in general....


Yeah but Humans in general wasn't relevant to my post about why a lot of women don't identify with feminism.

Radical feminism isn't even on the average gender conforming woman's radar, they might think of it as 'the crazy extremists that they vaguely heard about one time' this is a video on feminism that's basically just a critique of lib fem then very briefly goes into some radfem stuff but women are more likely to be liberal feminists than radical:


----------



## versikk (Nov 25, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> For a lot of people it will never be as good as the media paints it to be.


could you give an example of something that is unattainable sex-wise? it could be that i'm misconstruing where you're coming from, so to speak.



Persephone The Dread said:


> Yeah but Humans in general wasn't relevant to my post about why a lot of women don't identify with feminism.


ok, true.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

versikk said:


> could you give an example of something that is unattainable sex-wise? it could be that i'm misconstruing where you're coming from, so to speak.


I can't really be bothered right now so I'll just post a quick link:

https://www.healthyplace.com/sex/women/why-so-many-women-dont-enjoy-sex

It should be obvious though that porn/media portrayals of sex where people always orgasm/enjoy it are unrealistic.


----------



## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I can't really be bothered right now so I'll just post a quick link:
> 
> https://www.healthyplace.com/sex/women/why-so-many-women-dont-enjoy-sex
> 
> It should be obvious though that porn/media portrayals of sex where people* always *orgasm/enjoy it are unrealistic.


yep. The fantasies of the 2 individuals involved don't always match up.


----------



## versikk (Nov 25, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I can't really be bothered right now so I'll just post a quick link:
> 
> https://www.healthyplace.com/sex/women/why-so-many-women-dont-enjoy-sex
> 
> It should be obvious though that porn/media portrayals of sex where people always orgasm/enjoy it are unrealistic.


that's enough for me:smile2:


----------



## Suchness (Aug 13, 2011)

We will help the incel but sometimes there is only so much you can do.


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## Steve French (Sep 17, 2012)

Think the term incel needs to be dropped first of all. It seems a bit too catch all. Most seem to think it refers to any man unable to get laid for whatever reason, when others say it refers to sociopathic men who can't get laid and blame women and society, who cultivate violent and misogynistic thoughts before lashing out. This has led to a juxtaposition of the two, with anybody struggling in the relationship game shamed and labelled as a potentially dangerous psychotic. That labelling is dangerous in itself, as it defines these folks as being unworthy of any sympathy, unable to change, and ignores that many of these people are seriously mentally ill and need help from outside sources.


I also think that the combination of cultural pressure of men not needing to seek help prevents them from trying, and the perception of being able to attract a mate being almost the sole indicator of life success and quality in a man harms these fellows self-esteem and assists in preventing them from any sort of pity.


Also, the majority of recognizance of a bunch of dudes unable to get any seems to be from violent incidents and internet forums dedicated to advocating such violence or shaming/bullying the individuals involved. I don't think these engender any sympathy or humanization of these folks.


Of course, we also have to consider the current climate of male sexuality being unneeded, unwanted, and always carrying the potential of violence, entitlement, and harassment.


Incels are probably a pretty small problem in society when we get down to it, so far. Of course, it will probably get attention to some degree when the population replacement rate gets low enough. They probably ought to teach people how to socialize properly in school, starting young, but I doubt of the authorities ability to define proper socialization and to teach it. The governments could at least legalize and regulate prostitution.


And lets face it. Most of them don't want help, don't realize they could get help, don't know how to help themselves, don't have any positive role models, etc. They've grown up on some Disney reality where they believe there is someone for everyone and that person will eventually come along. When they realize this is bs, they lash out and cast blame rather than taking some responsibility.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Persephone The Dread said:


> It should be obvious though that porn/media portrayals of sex where people always orgasm/enjoy it are unrealistic.


I don't know. I think the majority of guys can always orgasm if they aren't taking any substances that cause anorgasmia.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

nubly said:


> I don't know. I think the majority of guys can always orgasm if they aren't taking any substances that cause anorgasmia.


I used to think that but I've seen statistics that suggest otherwise these days (because of casual sex, people orgasm less during casual sex,) as for women obviously they don't enjoy sex every time.

edit: found the thing I was looking at

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/open-gently/201302/hookups-sound-bad-sex



> As the cliche would suggest, men like hookups more than women do. But one reason is that men are more likely to get oral sex in a first-time hookup and 31% of men actually have an orgasm compared to only 10% of women.
> 
> The double standard is upsetting. But note that the majority of both men and women aren't coming in their hookups. As far as an orgasm, they'd probably be better off masturbating.


People who have sex with women both men and women generally orgasm more though from what I've read. But I think there are different reasons for that like different sexual acts.


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## Zatch (Apr 28, 2013)

I don't really see what it would fix. Bouts of violence isn't really an incel thing. It's just becoming increasingly associated with them, because of the late trend that awful people doing awful things decided to start pushing about social recluses, NOT just incels.

I don't see how weeding out introverts (especially only under a guess about their sexual history) and offering treatment, for something they might not even perceive as a problem personally, is supposed to help.


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

It's all abt how palatable the coping mechanism is. Some coping/defense mechanisms are more sympathetic and easy to feel for. For instance, if someone feels very insecure abt themselves, it's easier to feel sympathy for the person who copes by trying to be positive, or is shy and quiet, or seeks therapy. It's far more difficult to sympathize with someone, just as insecure, who copes in a narcissistic manner, walking around putting pple down and making others feel like ****. It's one thing to have a problem and take it upon yourself to deal with it and seek help, another thing to have a problem and lash out at others. 

So do "incels" need help? Absolutely. But it's difficult to help/ feel sympathy for a viper that's actively trying to bite you no matter how much you'd like to help. The incel stuff is grounded in very real pain, real feelings of rejection, anger, etc., but it's hard to want to get close enough to help while they're still wildly lashing out. We all have our own problems and I'm not hurting myself in order to help anyone.

Eta- I'm very late to this thread and haven't read anything, so this has prob been mentioned a few times.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SparklingWater said:


> It's all abt how palatable the coping mechanism is. Some coping/defense mechanisms are more sympathetic and easy to feel for. For instance, if someone feels very insecure abt themselves, it's easier to feel sympathy for the person who copes by trying to be positive, or is shy and quiet, or seeks therapy. It's far more difficult to sympathize with someone, just as insecure, who copes in a narcissistic manner, walking around putting pple down and making others feel like ****. It's one thing to have a problem and take it upon yourself to deal with it and seek help, another thing to have a problem and lash out at others.
> 
> So do "incels" need help? Absolutely. But it's difficult to help/ feel sympathy for a viper that's actively trying to bite you no matter how much you'd like to help. The incel stuff is grounded in very real pain, real feelings of rejection, anger, etc., but it's hard to want to get close enough to help while they're still wildly lashing out. We all have our own problems and I'm not hurting myself in order to help anyone.
> 
> Eta- I'm very late to this thread and haven't read anything, so this has prob been mentioned a few times.


I think it comes down to externalising vs internalising behaviours and attitudes, people are more sympathetic towards the latter. It's not that everyone will necessarily ignore you if you exhibit the former though, because they want to neutralise threats. And after a certain amount of the latter people will get pissed off with you/want to avoid you as well.

Also this is pretty true:



Steve French said:


> Also, the majority of recognizance of a bunch of dudes unable to get any seems to be from violent incidents and internet forums dedicated to advocating such violence or shaming/bullying the individuals involved. I don't think these engender any sympathy or humanization of these folks.


I think often people don't notice unless you start doing that, a bit like with kids when they notice the ones who are the most outspoken/aggressive. Not that the help they give those kids is necessarily better.


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## ideasunlimitedonline (Apr 11, 2019)

SplendidBob said:


> @VIncymon incels frustrate the hell out of me.
> 
> I am negative towards them because of their attitudes, their beliefs, and their _total unwillingness_ to be rational. They ask for help and just ignore it, its really hard to show compassion to people who wont see any reason and who, whenever they pop up seem to be _really_ unpleasant people.
> 
> I don't know what to say to you though, I mean like I say, there couldn't be _more_ information out there on how to succeed with women. I still am at a loss as to what help we are supposed to give them, because we can't give them what they want, _women who will have sex with them_. That seems to be all they want, they wont budge an inch and take any responsibility for their situation at all.


I am all for being a wing woman and helping a brother out, but here is the thing....I can't help you find a lady if you aren't willing to get out of your room and go someplace. Anywhere. Seriously, we can go to the pet shop, game store, you name it. I would even settle for a dating web site. But the problem with incels is that they spend huge portions of their day just talking on incel forums, ranting and fostering that anger.

Women don't want to approach an guy who they feel is angry at them, it's called fight or flight and it is totally normal. There is literally nothing you can do to override a natural response to want to avoid someone when you think they despise you..which is what incels do, they get really, really, really mad at women as a whole for not picking them. For the few incels who have tried dating websites, they can be pretty aggressive too. Just going right to asking for pictures and then calling women names when they get turned down because there is a sense of entitlement.

I'm seeing a lot of conflation between SA and incels, and people really need to not legitimatize incel behavior. SA is an actual recognized social phenomenon that impedes the ability to make outside engagement. Many men with SA are extremely kind, compassionate men who could easily find a lady. I've seen many guys here who have attractive personalities. Incels come from the assumption that everyone else has the problem, and they also have documented history of violence attached. They believe they are entitled to full acceptance and shouldn't be expected to change along with a world that is changing around them, and engage in unhealthy social behaviors. Inceldom is way more akin to a personality disorder since they refuse help and don't see a problem.

Benedict Cumberbatch is a reptilian overlord who has hypnotized us all, so if he can make it, YOU CAN TOO!


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## iAmCodeMonkey (May 23, 2010)

opcorn


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## iAmCodeMonkey (May 23, 2010)

ideasunlimitedonline said:


> Incels come from the assumption that everyone else has the problem, and they also have documented history of violence attached. They believe they are entitled to full acceptance and shouldn't be expected to change along with a world that is changing around them, and engage in unhealthy social behaviors. Inceldom is way more akin to a personality disorder since they refuse help and don't see a problem.


 :yes:yes:yes:yes


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## Blue Dino (Aug 17, 2013)

Because there is technically nothing wrong being an introvert. Even being an incel, there really is nothing wrong with that, it's just a matter of personal opinion, until they start to let manifest into harmful actions towards others. And usually by then, it's too late. It's the same thing with how anyone started committing their very first crime. Until they start doing it, there is nothing wrong so nothing can be done in a legal sense.


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

Steve French said:


> Think the term incel needs to be dropped first of all. It seems a bit too catch all.* Most seem to think it refers to any man unable to get laid for whatever reason*, when *others say it refers to sociopathic men* who can't get laid and blame women and society, who cultivate violent and misogynistic thoughts before lashing out. This has led to a* juxtaposition *of the two, with *anybody struggling in the relationship game shamed and labelled as a potentially dangerous psychotic.* That labelling is dangerous in itself, as *it defines these folks as being unworthy of any sympathy, unable to change, and ignores that many of these people are seriously mentally ill and need help from outside sources.
> *
> 
> I also think that the combination of *cultural pressure of men not needing to seek help* prevents them from trying, and *the perception of being able to attract a mate being almost the sole indicator of life success and quality in a man harms these fellows self-esteem* and assists in preventing them from any sort of pity.
> ...


You should run for president, mate !

Such a well thought out and eloquent response...you've expressed so much of what I feel about the situation...

I especially love how you highlighted that the negative press from the violent outbursts and nasty internet forums...conflates any genuinely nonviolent incel with the mysoginists.....making it very hard to garner any sympathy.


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## versikk (Nov 25, 2013)




----------



## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

versikk said:


>


Loved vid


----------



## ideasunlimitedonline (Apr 11, 2019)

versikk said:


>


I love ContraPoints. This video is such a good explanation of the backstory, underpinnings and I love the Death Cult analogy. Spot on!


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## versikk (Nov 25, 2013)

SplendidBob said:


> Loved vid





ideasunlimitedonline said:


> I love ContraPoints. This video is such a good explanation of the backstory, underpinnings and I love the Death Cult analogy. Spot on!


i just find it dumb and sad that a simple portmantaeu that just means "can't get laid" has been warped to refer to a specific subset of "can't get laiders" who act horribly.... i used to post on r9k back in the day in incel posts because back then it was just us freaks who just can't get dates/sex. similar status to wizards, kissless virgins etc. afaik it was never about being definitively "beyond help misogynistic" and whatnot.

but CP video is great:boogie:boogie:boogie


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## TheForestWasDark (May 23, 2015)

The term incel is so dumb, why do people gotta try to label everything god dammit. Best if everyone just ignored it..

Al. No one knows you better than you. You can do it all for yourself best and no one can hang it over your head later.

I am always EXTREMELY weary of the helpful over reaching people on issues like this. BIG red flag


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

versikk said:


>


lol I clicked on the video and it started half way through, then I clicked on another part randomly and it was part where she says calm down she's also attracted to women and 'people in between' eh, don't buy it. For reasons. Damn I really need to make a no contrapoints rule.

From what I remember it's a fairly good video though.


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## versikk (Nov 25, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> lol I clicked on the video and it started half way through, then I clicked on another part randomly and it was part where she says calm down she's also attracted to women and 'people in between' eh, don't buy it. For reasons. Damn I really need to make a no contrapoints rule.
> 
> From what I remember it's a fairly good video though.


r u hating on mommy, this cud get problematic Sepherson

seriously tho are you doubting her character? i am mighty interested - i mean, i always want to know what makes people tick but...:boogie


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

versikk said:


> r u hating on mommy, this cud get problematic Sepherson
> 
> seriously tho are you doubting her character? i am mighty interested - i mean, i always want to know what makes people tick but...:boogie


Lol I think we sort of talked about this before (I mean there's more detail but I don't want to go into it all,) but like not talking about her opinions right now (which I semi-often disagree with when on the topic of gender also thought her recent GC video was weak but off topic,) bottom line is she reminds me of negative stuff so it would be better for me to avoid watching her content. Of course I'm incredibly bad at doing so, and actually I'm in various places online that bother me anyway, some of where she gets talked about often so it's all circular hell lol.


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## ideasunlimitedonline (Apr 11, 2019)

versikk said:


> i just find it dumb and sad that a simple portmantaeu that just means "can't get laid" has been warped to refer to a specific subset of "can't get laiders" who act horribly.... i used to post on r9k back in the day in incel posts because back then it was just us freaks who just can't get dates/sex. similar status to wizards, kissless virgins etc. afaik it was never about being definitively "beyond help misogynistic" and whatnot.
> 
> but CP video is great:boogie:boogie:boogie


To be fair though, from what I've seen, 'incel' began initially as a very matter of fact, and almost self referential ribbing. The incel community (especially on Reddit) has slowly transitioned into much more of an almost political/identity movement. The more aggressive members of the group have been allowed to have control of the conversation, due to a huge lack of moderation. CP is great because she really emphasizes how this began as a small, personal problem into this huge social conversation point as to whether sex should be a govt mandated need or if our bodies belong to solely ourselves or others.


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

VIncymon said:


> I was living just like an incel once. All of my romantic attempts blew up in my face.
> 
> Luckily when I entered university I was placed in a room filled with extroverts who...deliberately made plans to include me in outings.
> 
> ...


You got very lucky.

If it wasn't for your roommates, maybe you would still be a virgin with no dating experience today, or at least for a few more years.

Not everybody is so lucky though...


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

xxDark Horse said:


> You got very lucky.
> 
> If it wasn't for your roommates, maybe you would still be a virgin with no dating experience today, or at least for a few more years.
> 
> Not everybody is so lucky though...


I know. Pathetic right ? It took a whole room of probably 8 or so guys just so I could get a girlfriend. LOL.

I would literally ask all 8 of them for advice everytime I had a date....
I even asked them advice for the first time I had sex too :wink2: ....oh the shame.


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## sick + lonely NEET ShutIn (Aug 26, 2018)

because nobody wants to help anybody. incels are considered losers because only the strong survive in this world and only the strong and beautiful and the self confident guys get all the girls.

it seems to me that most girls only search for absolute perfection in guys. that means that incels/virgins are "undesireables". they are losers because they couldnt figure out how to be successful with girls. and in this life nobody really helps anybody or gives you anything for free.

if you are a virgin/incel it means that you are lacking some things since you couldnt attract a female to you.

its hard, but thats how it is. i am a virgin myself btw. so everything applies to me too.

i hate it when somebody sugarcoates things. if you cant bring somebody to like you/be successful with females, then you basically lack a skill other guys have. there is no talking around that thing.


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## D'avjo (Sep 23, 2018)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> it seems to me that most girls only search for absolute perfection in guys.


Have you seen some girls? If most of them are looking for perfection then they got a ****in long wait.

Could you may be guilty of the very same?


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## D'avjo (Sep 23, 2018)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> the thing is, even the most ugly girl in the world can have (and will have) high standards .


Have you seen some of the guys that some of those woman go for?

Not sure where you are getting this idea that being a virgin puts you right down the bottom of the list, lower than being ugly. Is it that off putting to woman you think ? I dont.

As for your last sentence, I think hobo is the problem.

He is a hobo ? Thats ok I quite like them. What he hasnt had sex ??


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Someone shoot me.


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## D'avjo (Sep 23, 2018)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> just watch documentaries on hobos.


Maybe tomorrow, I'll wanna settle down, but, until tomorrow

Well you are going to have to polish those specs, button up your cardigan and straighten that bow tie....become that top nerd!!

How hard is it to become top nerd ? Bob, your input here please.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> just look at it through a nerd lens. you have 5 nerd guys who look average and a average looking nerd girl. this nerd girl will pick out the "best" nerd guy of the punch if she can only chose from these.
> 
> its because girls have it way more easy when it comes to sex, even if they are ugly. just watch documentaries on hobos.
> 
> even girl hobos choose the "best" hobo guy to be with ...because they CAN choose. the average hobo guy has to "take what he can get". he most likely cannot chose.


You're right but it's because nerd girls are the only girl surrounded by tons of guys usually. You need to find environments where you're one of the few guys surrounded by women.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html

You're not wrong that women will wait longer to find a guy they actually like while guys will settle for whatever. The internet has taught me that guys are way more desperate on average (sex drive difference probably, along with the fact men can't really get validation/attention outside of relationships much.) But still some women are really desperate.


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## sick + lonely NEET ShutIn (Aug 26, 2018)

D'avjo said:


> Maybe tomorrow, I'll wanna settle down, but, until tomorrow
> 
> Well you are going to have to polish those specs, button up your cardigan and straighten that bow tie....become that top nerd!!
> 
> How hard is it to become top nerd ? Bob, your input here please.


i will never be the top nerd


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

D'avjo said:


> Maybe tomorrow, I'll wanna settle down, but, until tomorrow
> 
> Well you are going to have to polish those specs, button up your cardigan and straighten that bow tie....become that top nerd!!
> 
> How hard is it to become top nerd ? Bob, your input here please.


It can't be done.

Top nerd is just a muscular chad with a giant jawline wearing fake glasses to the MTGO meetup to pull the one girl there.

lol @ bow tie and cardigan. How have you been mate? Long time


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## D'avjo (Sep 23, 2018)

SplendidBob said:


> It can't be done.
> 
> Top nerd is just a muscular chad with a giant jawline wearing fake glasses to the MTGO meetup to pull the one girl there.
> 
> lol @ bow tie and cardigan. How have you been mate? Long time


Yeah I'm in tip top shape as usual mate, hope all good with you. I'll drop you a pm soon to see how you are getting on. (If you dont want me to, just tell me to **** off)

Did you manage to get over that crack and heroin addiction in the end? It was sad to see you working the streets.


----------



## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

D'avjo said:


> Yeah I'm in tip top shape as usual mate, hope all good with you. I'll drop you a pm soon to see how you are getting on. (If you dont want me to, just tell me to **** off)
> 
> Did you manage to get over that crack and heroin addiction in the end? It was sad to see you working the streets.


Glad to hear it. Nah its good, send your nudes (can read between the lines).

Yeh, I gave up the crack and heroin. But found street work so much fun I carry on doing that, but its a voluntary position now.


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## D'avjo (Sep 23, 2018)

SplendidBob said:


> Glad to hear it. Nah its good, send your nudes (can read between the lines).
> 
> Yeh, I gave up the crack and heroin. But found street work so much fun I carry on doing that, but its a voluntary position now.


So no more mugging old ladies, and you are now giving back to the community free of charge rather than a fiver or a pie from tesco.

Hope they are taking full use of your kind offer.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

D'avjo said:


> rather than a fiver or a pie from tesco.


Those were good times. Money and pies everywhere. Now handsome men almost as handsome as me are fighting to win clients paying with value baked beans. The whole industry has gone to **** in the last few years.


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## D'avjo (Sep 23, 2018)

SplendidBob said:


> Those were good times. Money and pies everywhere. Now handsome men almost as handsome as me are fighting to win clients paying with value baked beans. The whole industry has gone to **** in the last few years.


Brexit confusion no doubt. Would be good for you if we left, those poles are cheap as chips and go on non stop for hrs......apparently


----------



## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> even girl hobos


Seen everything. :dead


----------



## 0589471 (Apr 21, 2012)

***THREAD WARNING***

Multiple reports are coming from this thread for violations of who has it worse and gender bigotry rules. Several posts have had to be deleted.

If posts continue to blame a gender or compare genders, this thread _will[/b] be closed._


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## sick + lonely NEET ShutIn (Aug 26, 2018)

omg, the internet police again.

is it so bad to tell the simple truth that women in general have it way easier when it comes to sexual things? is that a crime against humanity to say it?

why do you think there are so many more male virgins (4ever) than female virgins? because men have it so easy when it comes to sexual things?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> omg, the internet police again.
> 
> is it so bad to tell the simple truth that women in general have it way easier when it comes to sexual things? is that a crime against humanity to say it?
> 
> why do you think there are so many more male virgins (4ever) than female virgins? because men have it so easy when it comes to sexual things?


You didn't respond to my post about ratios. Clearly it didn't interest you because I didn't suggest ideas on how to land a female hobo.


----------



## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> omg, the internet police again.
> 
> is it so bad to tell the simple truth that women in general have it way easier when it comes to sexual things? is that a crime against humanity to say it?


...Do you know how much bad happens to women in the world at the hands of abusive family or husband's/ boyfriend's, this comment seems a bit naive & flippant ?


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## sick + lonely NEET ShutIn (Aug 26, 2018)

its because i wasnt online. i havent even seen your post about ratios. 

but the truth is still that in todays world men are expected to go and ask women out. so it will always be the case that women have it easier when it comes to sex.

i dont want to offend the mighty internet police but thats how the world works.

i also know that there are more factors involved but in the western world, women have it super easy when it comes to sex. a women today can make a tinder account without any information at all. just a photo and the world "SEX". and she is ready to go.

if a man does that, he will not get very many partners  if a women does that, she will be flooded with male contacts.


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

Why do so many get their knickers in a twist ? being a gracious loser is a type of winning, why not work with what you got instead of flogging a dead horse 🙂.....whatever do what you think is best :yes


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> omg, the internet police again.
> 
> is it so bad to tell the simple truth that women in general have it way easier when it comes to sexual things? is that a crime against humanity to say it?
> 
> why do you think there are so many more male virgins (4ever) than female virgins? because men have it so easy when it comes to sexual things?


And why does it matter?

"Oh black people have more poverty than white people, therefore white people who are poor shouldn't think it sucks"...

Also, it ain't a competition.


----------



## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> its because i wasnt online. i havent even seen your post about ratios.
> 
> but the truth is still that in todays world men are expected to go and ask women out. so it will always be the case that women have it easier when it comes to sex.
> 
> ...


There's tradeoffs. Yes, women can get some horny chodestein to sleep with them if they're that desperate, but those guys are a dime a dozen. You also have to take into account that women are highly objectified on a daily basis. It's subtly woven into every one of their interactions. Growing up, I've had a ton of female friends and I can tell you how appalling it is to see the way they're treated REGULARLY.

Go make that fake Tinder account and try having conversations with these "guys" you match with and tell me how good they make you feel. How "human" you feel after...

I'm not even white knighting, I'm just speaking facts. The grass is greener for sure.

It is frustrating for men with SA to try and compete with OTHER MEN for women, but it's far more complex than distilling it down to "women have it easier". And you really aren't doing much in the way of "solving" the issue by coming to such oversimplified conclusions.


----------



## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> omg, the internet police again.
> 
> is it so bad to tell the simple truth that women in general have it way easier when it comes to sexual things? is that a crime against humanity to say it?
> 
> why do you think there are so many more male virgins (4ever) than female virgins? because men have it so easy when it comes to sexual things?


I always find this opinion unusual. Your competition is men, not women, it makes no different how easy it is for women. I am your competition. Be annoyed at me for having nice hair while you have a bowl cut or whatever.



sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> its because i wasnt online. i havent even seen your post about ratios.
> 
> but the truth is still that in todays world men are expected to go and ask women out. so it will always be the case that women have it easier when it comes to sex.
> 
> i dont want to offend the mighty internet police but thats how the world works.


And I would rather that. It's awkward as **** having women come onto you.



sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> i also know that there are more factors involved but in the western world, women have it super easy when it comes to sex. a women today can make a tinder account without any information at all. just a photo and the world "SEX". and she is ready to go.
> 
> if a man does that, he will not get very many partners  if a women does that, she will be flooded with male contacts.


The problem is the horrifyingly low quality of men they have to wade through to find good ones. Those guys are ****ing_ terrible_. Honestly, you aren't looking at this the right way. Those men are so undesirable, for women its literally like _you _getting flooded with pathetic attempts to have sex with you from _other men_. It's meaningless. everything about them screams "I am low quality". That you can't even see this is amazing.


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## sick + lonely NEET ShutIn (Aug 26, 2018)

i just wanted to point that out. i have no desire to change how society works because women will always have it easier when it comes to love and sex. in the west at least.

also my competition are not men since i already gave up on dating years ago. i already wrote that somebody who cannot attract women (a guy) lacks skills other men have and thats why society hates "incels/virgins". because they are weak and society hates all sorts of weakness even when it pretends that it helps helpless people. in reality people who are helpless are victims of the society because they will be bullied or made fun of all the time. thats just how the world works.

and now i stop posting here, because ...oh sh**, somebody opened the door......its the internet police: FREEZE OR WE WILL SHOOT!


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

sick + lonely NEET ShutIn said:


> i just wanted to point that out. i have no desire to change how society works because women will always have it easier when it comes to love and sex. in the west at least.
> 
> also my competition are not men since i already gave up on dating years ago. i already wrote that somebody who cannot attract women (a guy) lacks skills other men have and thats why society hates "incels/virgins". because they are weak and society hates all sorts of weakness even when it pretends that it helps helpless people. in reality people who are helpless are victims of the society because they will be bullied or made fun of all the time. thats just how the world works.
> 
> and now i stop posting here, because ...oh sh**, somebody opened the door......its the internet police: FREEZE OR WE WILL SHOOT!


How much would you want some random guy to **** you in the ***?

You've just made this weird assumption that what women want is to have sex with any random guy like many guys do with girls, but they don't so the comparison is pointless because that's not what they want.

Bonus though:


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

This thread wasn't going too poorly and I think there is some interesting/worthwhile content, especially earlier on.

But there's only so much juice you can squeeze from an orange.


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