# SA caused by physical appearance?



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

I'm sure this is a repeat, but lets do it again (for fun). 

And lets be honest.


----------



## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

hmmm im going to say somewhat. i was terribly obese as a child


----------



## coldmorning (Jul 4, 2007)

Appearance might aggravate SA, but I don't think it's a cause.


----------



## refined_rascal (Dec 20, 2005)

Definitely. It was when I was around 18 years old that my problems began. Before then, SA didn't even figure in my life.


----------



## njodis (Nov 8, 2006)

Mostly.


----------



## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Cerberus said:


> No. SA has led me to be more self-conscious of my appearance, however.


----------



## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

Without a doubt.


----------



## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

I voted mostly because I was fat & ugly as a child and that's when the SA started...as a child. :mum Then I still felt somewhat fat & ugly after I became an adult but now I'd give anything to be the size I was last year & not pregnant. Actually everything was just better last year, even though it wasn't great then. I still wish I could go back to last year & know what I know now :sigh


----------



## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

Somewhat.
I used to have severe acne, basically everywhere you can get acne. I was never a fan of my facial features, either.


----------



## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

Definitely it factors in for me. If I could change certain things (all of which unfortunately would be basically impossible) I'd have a lot more confidence.


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

I have a bad body image and cant seem to reach perfection. I have always been obssesed about my body since being young at 4 years old. I think body image is one of the causes of social anxiety but I cant prove it.


----------



## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

if someone was teased then it sure cause SA.

my poor body image (well..ugliness) isn't the cause of my SA, since i was never actually teased by anyone, but it certainly makes it worse and it's probably my top worry in general. 
i sometimes think that i wouldn't have SA if i were attractive.. but i know that isn't true since part of my SA is not being able to make conversation.
and even so.. if one insecurity is gone, i would just focus on another.


----------



## pariahgirl (Mar 26, 2008)

I'd say somewhat..I've always disliked the way I looked and that probably contributes to my shyness. I've seen uh "average" people who were very outgoing however...and above average people who were much more reserved..so it's probably different for everyone.


----------



## Scrub-Zero (Feb 9, 2004)

I've been ugly my whole life and people made fun of me or avoided me...so maybe?


----------



## ANCIENT (Aug 9, 2005)

pariahgirl said:


> I'd say somewhat..I've always disliked the way I looked and that probably contributes to my shyness.


 :ditto


----------



## Fanciful Unicorn (Jul 19, 2007)

I've always been tortured about my weight. Somehow I believe once I lose enough weight, everything will be better.

But I know there are other factors to my SA.


----------



## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

I say it is how much you care about what others think of your appearance. I had SA in Kindergarten, so I wasn't too concerned with my appearance back then. I was worried more about what other people thought of me and would want them to be my friends. Small skin problems and other non-'normal' physical features made me more self conscious in high school. Once those went away, depression was still there (it was caused by other factors), but social anxiety did get better and I was able to do therapy exercises more easily. But then again, no one can see you on the telephone, so physical appearance obviously didn't play a role in that.


----------



## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

I went with somewhat. After all, if looks were all that mattered then people with SA wouldn't so commonly have a great fear of the phone where nobody even knows what you look like.


----------



## User57854 (Dec 26, 2006)

-


----------



## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

UltraShy said:


> I went with somewhat. After all, if looks were all that mattered then people with SA wouldn't so commonly have a great fear of the phone where nobody even knows what you look like.


Excellent point.

I think a tendency to judge one's social skills very harshly often goes along with a tendency to judge one's appearance harshly. For me the harsh self evaluation came first, and seized on any hint of a flaw in my presentation of myself.


----------



## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Yeah, it's the major component of mine.


----------



## ThomP (Dec 24, 2007)

"Mostly" for me, since it's what caused the mobbing for me (fat, glasses) and that is as far as I can see the main reason for my SA. Plus, I'm bald, which is really bugging me.

- Thom


----------



## ShyFX (Mar 6, 2006)

somewhat. It wasn't the cause but it sure adds to it.


----------



## WineKitty (Nov 26, 2004)

Cerberus said:


> No. SA has led me to be more self-conscious of my appearance, however. This, in turn, gave me a very poor view of myself.


I am in agreement with this. Having been everywhere from overweight to super skinny, I know for a fact that it doesnt matter what I weigh, I will still berete myself and feel ugly. I have a poor self-image and that is in my head, nothing any diet can cure.


----------



## CoconutHolder (Oct 13, 2007)

I was an attractive child. I had bright bright blonde hair and I was "fussed" over a lot by people. I didn't like all the attention at all, being so insecure. I wanted everyone to leave me alone and I didn't trust anyone. :no 

It contributed to it, yeah. More than somewhat, for sure. 

I can see how it can go both ways. No matter how you look, having SA sucks ***. :yes


----------



## seanybhoy (Mar 2, 2008)

Somewhat, Along with a series of other unfortunate things my skin breaking out when i was 16 or sumfin really made me look at life from a different angle, I dunno i guess i just did'nt know how cruel people could be up until then but yeah even though my skin is clear now i still doubt myself and double check in the mirror n **** i dunno i guess it aint physical but mental scarring thats got me feeling worthless and sooooo insecure.


----------



## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

I don't think appearance itself is the cause, but how we view it psychologically might be relevant.

If you looked identical to another person, but that person loved their appearance while you thought you were hideous/repulsive/worthy of ridicule/etc., then the appearance itself has little to do with the SA.


----------



## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Some days I look in the mirror and think "holy crap you look like a really bummed out corpse"

Other days I go "woah, rock star hottie". However once away from a mirror I generally psychologically default to the first one.

Surprise surprise - black and white thinking.

I was told I was handsome by lots of people but listened more to the ones who told me with bitterness and poison that I was ugly and repulsive. Then I just tuned my 'peoples opinion of my looks' radar to 'negative' and the rest is history. Compliment me and I dont believe you. 

Thanks for giving me that little sensitivity, sis.

I coulda looked like Brad Pitt and still thought I was ugleh.


----------



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Those are the results I was expecting. My SA is a direct cause of my appearance. If I looked at least average, I would not have social anxiety. I usually get the feeling like not too many understand this.


----------



## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

LostInReverie said:


> Those are the results I was expecting. My SA is a direct cause of my appearance. If I looked at least average, I would not have social anxiety. I usually get the feeling like not too many understand this.


The danger is that such a line (a line that if crossed, one would be finally satisfied with their appearance) is often mobile, despite what it feels like at any given moment. It often feels like we just need x, y, or z. The beneficial feelings though, once achieved, are often quite temporary, with a new desire replacing it.

The extreme example (which doesn't apply to most people, but illustrates the point clearly) would be the individuals who have had 50 plastic surgeries due to needing to finally reach that degree where they can look good enough. It's stunning how confident they are each time that the next procedure is indeed the last sprinkle to be added to the birthday cake.

Some people might call this seeking to finally look "good enough" or "average" (itself an illusion since there's no objective way to demonstrate what "average appearance" is in reality). People have widely varying opinions of what qualifies for average, which also illustrates its subjective and mobile nature.

A more careful approach is to realize that the belief that our problems would be instantly solved if we achieved a desired appearance is a mirage, and a deeply ingrained psychological sense of defectiveness does not automatically re-wire itself in the brain with such a swift and superficial change on the outside. At best, it will offer a temporary solace, but then the "if only" phenomenon starts up again as new flaws are found and magnified to replace the old. If I only made "x" more money...if I only had even less acne...if I only had straighter/curlier/darker/lighter hair...If only my ears weren't so large... if only my *** wasn't so big...etc...It's never going to end until acceptance is utilized...no matter WHAT someone looks like.

It seems that some people's brains are just VERY adept at finding "flaws" regardless of the external appearance. It's adept since it's been doing this for so long. Your brain isn't likely to suddenly forget how to think of oneself as defective with an appearance change.


----------



## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Still, I wouldnt mind cheek implants, a chin implant, a nose job and facial balancing

yanno, just a little tweak here and there


----------



## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> Still, I wouldnt mind cheek implants, a chin implant, a nose job and facial balancing
> 
> yanno, just a little tweak here and there


I'm going to get knuckle implants, a lower back lift, kneecap injections, and some boobs (two or three) on my upper back. :yes


----------



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Yeah, see I know if I could change that one thing it would make a huge difference. It's not a psychological problem, it's a physical problem. Like I said, it's difficult to find others who understand.


----------



## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

LostInReverie said:


> Yeah, see I know if I could change that one thing it would make a huge difference. It's not a psychological problem, it's a physical problem. Like I said, it's difficult to find others who understand.


How do you know this if you haven't yet experienced the change you desire?


----------



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Actually, I have.


----------



## HumiliatedGuy (Jan 13, 2008)

Mostly: I'm short and skinny, and I grew up as the only non-white person until I went to high school where the people of my race were predominantly the ones who picked on me.


----------



## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

LostInReverie said:


> Actually, I have.


So you're satisfied now?


----------



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

It was a past change, not current.


----------



## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

I got an extension


----------



## CoconutHolder (Oct 13, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> I got an extension


me too.


----------



## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Ah, so it was just temporarily experienced, then went away? It kind of sounds like when someone gets on benzos and experiences immediate benefits... but then it frequently poops out over time unless you take more and more (with withdrawal unless the original amount is taken).

I had some really awful acne in middle school. I'd be literally bawling my eyes out over how atrocious I felt I looked. After years of torture, I finally saw a dermatologist (I don't even remember how I got my parents to agree, it's like blocked from my memory). After some meds that did nothing, I got Accutane and it did the trick.

I felt tons better due to the lack of seeing all that acne, but over time the new improvement was no longer an improvement, but just the status quo. I had habituated to it, and the same problems crept back in. I still had major issues with my appearance, which magnified to make up for my little dermatologist experience.

I don't think mine is an isolated experience. People who are insecure with their appearance are very good at finding flaws. It's a natural "gift." We don't automatically lose this psychological bias forever once we make one appearance change (we might surprise/shock it by removing its common method of attack, but it will come back with a vengeance on most occasions with new flaws). 

In addition, fascinating research in economics and psychology demonstrates how people have a psychological bias that convinces us that "improvements" we make in our lives (economic or otherwise) will be appreciated more permanently then they actually are ("Happiness: Lessons from a New Science" is a great read). 

One commonly used example is with lotto winners. They win big, assume they'll be happy for a long time (if not for the rest of their lives), but find they're right back to where they started in regards to their satisfaction about a year later, on average. Now for the duration of that one year, it might be nice, but imagine the agony of disappointment when one's projected benefits are found to be in error! Ouch!

There are a few "improvements" that do seem to have statistically significant long-term boosts to happiness. These are mostly social in nature (and economic when it comes to getting above the worst poverty). How awful to be a primate that is anxious in social situations...when that's the category of life most responsible for human happiness... 

I think I'd personally rather aim more toward the equilibrium (acceptance) than ride the up-and-down roller-coaster of desiring self-improvement in non-social realms (which I've learned seems to be idealistic of me, but also unavoidable, but able to be reduced in priority at least).


----------



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Okay, but if your flaws stand in the way of socializing and human connection, you have no choice but to focus on them.


----------



## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Hullo

I just wondered, LIR

Do you sometimes feel purdy? Like sometimes I feel good, though most times not. Do you have the occasional day of "hmm yeah, I'd do me" or is it always baaad?


----------



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Hell no. I wouldn't even be friends with me. There is nothing the least bit attractive about me, and that is not just my opinion. Honestly, I look like a freak all of the time. There's no hiding it. That's why I'm never comfortable in front of people and don't go out in public unless absolutely necessary.


----------



## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

The other day you posted that picture of you, that I thought really looked nice, the one where you told me about you having chicken cheeks 

What did you think of that photo? Did you dislike that one too?

I really dont like any photos of me. Maybe like 1 in 30....


----------



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

I liked that I could crop and digitally alter the photo to make myself appear somewhat normal, just as I altered the previous photo to make myself appear sickly and possessed, but that has nothing to do with my actual physical person.


----------



## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

hmm okies

i like how i look from only one angle, i guess im happy with half of me ... :afr

I think it came from my sis. When I was starting to like girls, my mum would say "o youre handsome" and my sister would say it was "disgusting" that my mum would say that, and it was clearly a lie. She used to make me feel like a hideous, vile thing and TBH my mum couldnt handle her, so I guess I took on my sisters words. The really dark, sick part of me is all made from her words, but now its become part of me, so I hate photos or people seeing me sometimes.


----------



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Well if you know it isn't true, dismiss the feelings as illogical.


----------



## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

i see your point :yes


----------



## njodis (Nov 8, 2006)

I'm not trying to be an ***, but some people just don't understand that it _is_ possible to have an appearance that makes people judge someone negatively all the time, and it's not just something they're imagining in their head.

Imagine a person who is short and skinny, and has always been short and skinny. Unless they haven't shaved, people usually think they're about 7-8 years younger than they really are, and it's not an exaggeration. Imagine that they were out a few years ago with a hoodie on (and the hood up) and some woman thought they were a little kid. In highschool, a girl literally says to her friend, "Look how small he is!" right in front of their face. When they go to get a haircut, they're often charged the "youth" price.

To top it off, they're very ugly.

What can a person do if their _unchangeable_ appearance is so out of the ordinary that everyone looks down on them? What if all of their social encounters are affected by this? How would this person have any kind of self esteem? How could this person get over their social anxiety if this is the cause? They can't trick themselves into thinking it's all imagined if it truly isn't, and I don't believe there is a type of mental therapy that can change your skeletal structure.


----------



## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

njodis said:


> I'm not trying to be an ***, but some people just don't understand that it _is_ possible to have an appearance that makes people judge you negatively all the time, and it's not just something you're imagining in your head.
> 
> Imagine a person who is short and skinny, and has always been short and skinny. Unless they haven't shaved, people usually think they're about 7-8 years younger than they really are, and it's not an exaggeration. Imagine that they were out a few years ago with a hoodie on (and the hood up) and some woman thought they were a little kid. In highschool, a girl literally says to her friend, "Look how small he is!" right in front of their face. When they go to get a haircut, they're often charged the "youth" price.
> 
> ...


For a second there I thought you were describing me! :lol I'm 5'5" and a little bit over 130lbs. I have red hair (statistics show it's easily the least attractive hair color _on men_, not women). I have pasty skin with red splotches that appear from time to time. I'm extremely weak in upper body strength/muscle. I had to get some minor procedures done to correct something a doctor told me was a "mutation." I've been rated well into the lowest 10% of people on Hot or Not (I did tons of tests a couple years ago). I have met only one person who became attracted to me despite contact with TONS of people (unlike people who totally isolate themselves, then complain that nobody likes them), but this was nearly a decade ago...and she was on a lot of drugs and very very insecure about herself. I was called "Little Adam" and "Baby Adam" as recently as this past summer. I've been called "Mick" (the racially derrogative term for Irish). I had girls mockingly buy me flowers for Valentine's Day, laughing at me when I received them. I've been pointed and laughed at, spat on, teased for blushing, and called many names. When I go running, I get names as well as bottles, CD jewel cases, and more thrown at me.

I suppose I'm lucky that my overriding sense of satisfaction isn't significantly affected by such negative events and experiences though. It's not like I am happy about them, but it's really just not that important to me for whatever reason. In fact, I find some experiences to be quite funny (the grocery store employee carding me and yelling "He's 24?!?!? I thought he was 12!!!!!" is one of my favorites...people almost don't believe me when I tell that story... or the neighbor who said "You're getting bigger!!" to me last year, as if I was 14 instead of 24).

Despite all of that, my social anxiety has been slowly declining, and it isn't even the biggest issue in my life anymore. This is despite living all alone in a city and having to drive hours to see my family. I'm not living an extravagant or stylish life by any means (I spent just a couple thousand dollars more than poverty level last year).

I guess it's a question of whether it is possible to live a satisfying life if you're truly an elephant man (or woman) in that you constantly receive looks of disgust, fear, and nausea. Assuming you are severely disfigured and/or ugly to virtually all people, is it truly impossible to be happy in life? Is it totally impossible to not internalize the subjective comments of others (particularly when it is the overriding majority or SUM of all opinions received) as objectively true? Cynics might answer "yes" to both questions, but I'm not at all convinced.


----------



## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

njodis said:


> I'm not trying to be an ***, but ....
> What can a person do if their _unchangeable_ appearance is so out of the ordinary that everyone looks down on them? What if all of their social encounters are affected by this? How would this person have any kind of self esteem? How could this person get over their social anxiety if this is the cause? They can't trick themselves into thinking it's all imagined if it truly isn't, and I don't believe there is a type of mental therapy that can change your skeletal structure.


Mabbe you werent talking to me but ....

I know my usual (in the past) response was to tell you about CBT and irrational thoughts, but if you look carefully I havent done that ... and I wasnt building up to it either. I just talked about my own insecurities. I still dont like the way I look. And it does add to feelings of unworthiness around pretty girls, but its more the elements of my BPD that produce that - my looks are only a part of it. I would gladly have cosmetic surgery becfause I think it would help my romantic prospects, but as I do not have SA anymore I cant very well say that its linked to my looks cos they havent changed.

If someone really is the elephant man then yes people will react badly to that and that is hurtful and sad. I dont like it anymore than anyone else :stu

At the moment I am rying to acept everything about me - my nasty traits that are like Narcissistic PD, the way I look, my body and so on. For the PD traits I know that after acceptance I can change them. With my face I cant, so acceptance is the only thing I can do. A haircut does help me as does clothes, but I still feel bad underneath about my looks :stu


----------



## Gerard (Feb 3, 2004)

No. No. No. No. For those that think and feel otherwise, you all are wonderful, attractive, beautiful, talented, skilled people full of so much potential and happiness in life.


----------



## njodis (Nov 8, 2006)

Naaah, I wasn't talking to you in particular. I've just noticed that on this forum in general, every time someone complains about something (such as their appearance/feeling as through they're being judged), everyone is quick to tell them that it's all due to twisted thinking on their part. What if it really isn't, though?

I believe that most people here that think they're ugly/being judged are just thinking irrationally. I'm just saying that it seems like most people can't wrap their head around the idea that someone might actually be unattractive enough that people really do treat them poorly on a daily basis. 

The "elephant man" might be a bit of an extreme example, but I guess it fits. If someone is severely deformed, and always has negative interactions with other people as as a result of their deformed appearance, what can they do? No matter how positive they think, and no matter if they convince themselves that the stares and pointing don't bother them, they're still going to be treated poorly by others.


----------



## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

.


----------



## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

Gerard said:


> No. No. No. No. For those that think and feel otherwise, you all are wonderful, attractive, beautiful, talented, skilled people full of so much potential and happiness in life.


Reality sounds better. No really, people don't enjoy being lied to, they want the truth. It's nice to say positive things about people in hopes that they'll believe you and in turn feel happy, or to make yourself happy as well by saying the words. But if you want to get to the root of the problem that's not the path to take. Just my two cents.


----------



## Gerard (Feb 3, 2004)

No. I remember I had a concern like this when I was working with that female therapist I always talk about and she said something similar and it helped me.


----------



## St.Paul (Dec 25, 2007)

Yeah, I don't think I'm super ugly, I just look kinda weird.I dunno, I've always just felt that way.


----------



## IllusionOfHappiness (Sep 6, 2007)

Gerard said:


> No. I remember I had a concern like this when I was working with that female therapist I always talk about and she said something similar and it helped me.


Everyone's different, remember.


----------



## Snickersnack (Jun 21, 2008)

My physical appearance certainly isn't helpful, but I've noticed other people don't seem to let things like that bother them (or at least hold them back).

Anxiety doesn't discriminate, but being unattractive can tip the boat a little further. Honestly, try having your hair start thinning when you're 17 and tell me it doesn't make you insecure. It's one of the few things that's still acceptable to mock, because it's apparently hilarious and you just need to "lighten up" about your defective genes (I get so sick of that). Even fat people get more respect (and at least most can lose weight). 

So it's just making something bad a little bit worse. Of course, if I were to become average looking or above overnight, then that certainly wouldn't "fix" things. I'd just find something else to focus on.


----------



## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Hmm... you could "rap" about being a short, pale, red-head like I did! Not being considered attractive by most people makes self-deprecatory humor sooooooooooo much easier. Nobody laughs at a model who jokes about looking inferior....Get off the stage, Barbie, you suck!! 

I saw a stand-up act at a comedy club a few months back with a guy who had cerebral palsy (and also a very short guy). He referred to it often in his act, and it was fantastic. He went on and on with hilarious anecdotes, since his condition seems to easily produce them. 

I guess maybe I'm just really biased toward seeing the humor and folly in situations that most find troubling/disturbing/depressing. It's my highly evolved coping mechanism I guess. :stu


----------

