# what attracts girl's; personalty or look's



## benyamin (May 11, 2010)

Well i know this thing was probably asked alot of times but anyway what do you think. what attracts girls more, i would realy like you to post opinios from real life experience.:clap


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## Deathinmusic (Jun 5, 2009)

Both, but if you don't have a personality that attracts them (or any personality at all), you can kiss any dreams of a long term relationship goodbye.


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## nemesis1 (Dec 21, 2009)

Personality seems to be more important than looks for women......guys who arent good looking but have good social skills generally have a better time in the dating world than a guy who is good looking but doesnt possess good social skills....


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Probably a mixture of both.

I suspect there are dealbreakers in either area. eg. less than 5'4", no way regardless of the personality, and super hot 6'2" with a jaw that can mine coal, but a timid pushover in social matters, buh-bye plz.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

*Looks + Money

*If you don't have either or enough, you are nothing to the majority. And yes, you need social skills and the douche personality as well, or LTR's will be nothing but a pipe dream.



nemesis1 said:


> Personality seems to be more important than looks for women......guys who arent good looking but have good social skills generally have a better time in the dating world than a guy who is good looking but doesnt possess good social skills....


PUA lies.


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## RayOfLight123 (Dec 4, 2009)

For me its personality then looks..if he has a crappy personality then hes gone


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## Deathinmusic (Jun 5, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> *Looks + Money
> 
> *If you don't have either or enough, you are nothing to the majority. And yes, you need social skills and the douche personality as well, or LTR's will be nothing but a pipe dream.


How can anyone seriously believe that? I'm sure there are some people (men or women) who go mostly for just looks and/or money but why would you ever be interested in someone that shallow anyway (unless you are that shallow yourself)?

If you are dynamic and interesting, plus confident enough to make yourself noticed, people will flock to you. If you are boring and lifeless, you won't attract anyone. In the big scheme of things personality is everything, I would say. This is what I have observed throughout my life. Is this really that hard to see? Or have I gotten it completely wrong?


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Deathinmusic said:


> How can anyone seriously believe that? I'm sure there are some people (men or women) who go mostly for just looks and/or money but why would you ever be interested in someone that shallow anyway (unless you are that shallow yourself)?
> 
> If you are dynamic and interesting, plus confident enough to make yourself noticed, people will flock to you. If you are boring and lifeless, you won't attract anyone. In the big scheme of things personality is everything, I would say. This is what I have observed throughout my life. Is this really that hard to see? Or have I gotten it completely wrong?


People like that in general turn me off but oh! every (girl?) is like that so it's all a wash.

Personality means nothing if you don't equate to the "ideal" human being.

It's all about looks, this, that, gotta have that, this, and this, and that. All programmed by mainstream television and hollywood movies social conditioning.

In real life I'm the quiet gentle guy who is to afraid to socialize so I say why even bother, while I keep my emotions and feelings bottled up. I'm not the bad boy type, I'm the wall or the nice loser. I actually have decent looks, tall in shape whatever but I sell myself short because I'm an epic fail with everything else.

It's all about LOOKS first though.


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## littlepickles (Apr 29, 2011)

heroin said:


> Probably a mixture of both.
> 
> I suspect there are dealbreakers in either area. eg. less than 5'4", no way regardless of the personality, and super hot 6'2" with a jaw that can mine coal, but a timid pushover in social matters, buh-bye plz.


Aww not true. I know a guy who's like 6'4" and really well built, but super shy, and he has a really pretty girlfriend. 
I also know a really short guy who's hilarious and is also dating. Granted, his girlfriend looks like snookie, but still.

As for OP's question - both. Most women pay attention to someone's looks at first, but it'll never last if the guy is a shell with no personality.


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## Deathinmusic (Jun 5, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> People like that in general turn me off but oh! every (girl?) is like that so it's all a wash.
> 
> Personality means nothing if you don't equate to the "ideal" human being.
> 
> ...


You sound a lot like me, and probably most of the other guys on this forum too. Not necessarily inherently boring and lifeless but probably insecure and lacking confidence and self-esteem. The answer is not to start hating women and painting them all with a broad brush though. I know it's tempting and I have felt it too because of how much I have missed out on and because I have never learned how to talk to women or to get any women really interested in me. It doesn't mean every girl is only after looks and money though. Is that what you have personally observed in real life? I haven't.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

No, but I know it to be true.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

I reckon looks just edges it from my experience.


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

Get real people ultimately it's *PERSONALITY!*

i.e. they go after the guys with high confidence, self-esteem, great people skills.

Look how many fat or out of shape guys, guys with round heads, guys who aren't ripped, are in relationships. That's because they don't make a big deal about how they look so women don't and they know how to show these women a good time.

Well ok, you'll find some girls going after that guy who's soo cute, the one with the blue eyes and nice silky hair...

...but in the long run if he can't even keep a conversation going the girl will get bored with him. I've seen this happen all the time.


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## rickthegreat (Dec 22, 2008)

Everyone knows that women are attracted to looks as *equally, if not more *than hey are attracted to personality.



















This is a clear example of a woman leveraging her stunning beauty to catch the finest male specimen possible. Masculinity incarnate. Perfect in every detail. Oh wait. That's some short older dude. Congressman Kucinich and his wife.

By the way, I bet men do the same. Or maybe not. I searched and searched the internet for an inverse example but *I reached the end of the internet!!!*


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

"Dude you gotta have confidence."

There is no such thing as confidence.

"Dude you gotta have game."

Guess what? If you have good looks, you've got "game".

If you go to the gym and you have an ugly face you're just an ugly dude with muscles.


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## fingertips (Jan 11, 2009)

i hear they love it when you harbour a seething hostility towards women in general.


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## mcmuffinme (Mar 12, 2010)

Looks are important to me, though I wish they weren't because I feel shallow for feeling this way. However, a bad personality can make the most handsome man the most unattractive in my eyes, and I will have zero interest if the personality is ****. Personality can override looks, but not vice versa.

I voted looks, but I want to note that I'd change my answer to personality if I could, because that is the ultimate decider while looks are just what creates initial attraction.

and for any man that hates me for saying that I care about looks- the consolation is that I am not very attractive myself and karma will bite me in the *** and I will likely be alone forever or for a hell of a long time because of it.


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## RUFB2327 (Sep 28, 2008)

Looks first, personality second.

Women will naturally flock to better looking guys. Fact. After that, and unless the woman is completely shallow, the personality comes into play.

I look at my uncle as the perfect example. He is a very good looking guy and very well built, as he takes care of himself by going to the gym a lot. When I go out with him to bars, woman are all over him (yeah, that really helps my confidence), but he also has a great personality. He also has a friend who is well built but not as good looking, but because of the way he is built women will come to him anyway and try to talk to him, but he has absolutely no personality. Once they realize that he is pretty much just a huge blob who just sits there and takes up space, they completely lose interest.

So, like I said, looks are the first thing women notice and what will make them try to get to know a guy in the first place, but after that, personality is a big factor.

The only way personality doesn't matter is when you have a guy who is one of the best looking guys in the world, where women are completely dazed by how he looks, or guys who the complete opposite, they are (not to be mean) hideous. A great personality will not overcome their complete lack of any looks.


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## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

spleens.


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## ChrissyB (Apr 26, 2011)

Personality. Be a sweetheart who can make me laugh and it'll be like I've struck gold.


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## LostProphet (Apr 4, 2010)

It depends on the girl.


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## TeddieAnn (May 2, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> If you go to the gym and you have an ugly face you're just an ugly dude with muscles.


Well, if a person is ugly, having nice physique won't hurt!

Like some people would rather date a guy or girl with a really nice body and an average face, than an average body and really nice face.


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## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

Extra apostrophes do it for me.


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## MsMusic (Jan 31, 2011)

ChrissyB said:


> Personality. Be a sweetheart who can make me laugh and it'll be like I've struck gold.


:ditto


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## shadowmask (Jun 22, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> No, but I know it to be true.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Both matter, if you want hotter girls you might need more than that, having a good career and being a cool guy helps.


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## AK32 (Sep 2, 2010)

I'll be honest the first thing that catches my eye are looks. However as you get to know a guy their personality & sense of humor is what keeps me attracted.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Can we define personality first?

What characteristics make a personality "attractive"?


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Ivan AG said:


> Can we define personality first?
> 
> What characteristics make a personality "attractive"?


I think what people mean when they say personality they just mean being funny and interesting. All of these characteristics come naturally from being well socialized. This is a huge reason why SA guys struggle in the dating world.


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## Noll (Mar 29, 2011)

Having a nice personality and being nice will only make you go unnoticed. Look good, be rich and be a complete douchebag - and all girls will want you. No matter what any girl say.


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## MojoCrunch (Mar 25, 2011)

Can't I have both?


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## TeddieAnn (May 2, 2011)

RayOfLight123 said:


> For me its personality then looks..if he has a crappy personality then hes gone


Same here.

Anyone worth dating, imho, would care more about personalty. lol


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

shynesshellasucks said:


> I think what people mean when they say personality they just mean being funny and interesting. All of these characteristics come naturally from being well socialized. This is a huge reason why SA guys struggle in the dating world.


Indeed?

I would think spending time alone absorbed on one's interest such as books would provide plentiful material for discussion.

The trick for me is to get past the small talk and those formalities that society deems normal.

I know I have interesting things to say, but they don't include Lady Gaga's latest hit or Brad Pitt's next girlfriend.


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## Ambitious (Apr 17, 2011)

I cant answer this question becoz it has to be a bit of both!


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## Misanthropic79 (May 6, 2011)

fingertips said:


> i hear they love it when you harbour a seething hostility towards women in general.


:clap

There seems to be a lot of that 'round these parts............


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I think it depends on the girl.


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## watashi (Feb 6, 2008)

A combination of both. Physical appearance makes you notice a person, but if they have unpleasant personality, looks won't compensate for it.


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## MelysCariad (Jan 26, 2011)

Both to be honest.

But in the past I've come to realize that appearance IS generally what first attracts. For me personally I find that a guy who has a defined personality, and is comfortable in his skin then they are the ones I always lean towards.

I know having SA is hard on both genders and makes it hard in the dating world. I'll openly admit I have never been on a date. And the reason I usually crush on outgoing people is because they are my opposite. That is not going to say I haven't met my fair share of sweet guys who keep to themselves. They hold mystery, which peeks my interest more than a really attractive guy that acts like a rock.


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## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

Looks get the girl, Personality gets her too stay.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Correct punctuation does it for me.


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## Johnny_Genome (Nov 11, 2003)

If you're doing everything to look and feel your best, then it doesn't matter which attracts girls -- it is what it is. C'est la vie.


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## Emptyheart101 (May 18, 2011)

For guys looks than personality
For girls..it's always the opposite..girls more often go for the personality than looks.
This annoys me.


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## King Moonracer (Oct 12, 2010)

im 6'3 and have a big build, and strong facial features, but im slightly overweight, but really athletic. what does that mean


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## Emptyheart101 (May 18, 2011)

^ That means if I stand besides you..people will think I'm a midget.


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## King Moonracer (Oct 12, 2010)

Emptyheart101 said:


> ^ That means if I stand besides you..people will think I'm a midget.


hahah

Some of my only college "friends" (people that talk to me at school) are these 2 really short girls who are like 5'0. And they are actually really attractive. I must be doing something right, i dont know why some people just cling on to me and make me their buddy.


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## Emptyheart101 (May 18, 2011)

Well from what you described you seem pretty attractive.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Emptyheart101 said:


> For girls..it's always the opposite..girls more often go for the personality than looks.
> This annoys me.


It annoys me too. Because they then use that and project it on to guys and think the importance guys put on appearance is "shallow".

It's equally shallow to insist on a good personality. What about all of us with crap personalities huh? 

Shallow women, always looking for some deep personality instead of appreciating our looks. :mum


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

The only person who wouldn't value looks even the tiniest percent, would be a blind person. 

Looks and personality are both important.


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## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

In the end it doesn't even matter. We all want to love be loved and get laid. I can fall in love with a 70 year old grandma who likes to kill people with a chainsaw, skin them and wear their face and eat their flesh. To me it doesn't matter. Once your in love, looks and personality fade. You go blind.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

jimity said:


> In the end it doesn't even matter. We all want to love be loved and get laid. I can fall in love with a 70 year old grandma who likes to kill people with a chainsaw, skin them and wear their face and eat their flesh. To me it doesn't matter. Once your in love, looks and personality fade. You go blind.


Yikes, man.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I don't know why we keep asking these questions (actually I do). Women are human too. There is little difference what attracts them and what attracts males.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

bwidger85 said:


> I don't know why we keep asking these questions (actually I do). Women are human too. There is little difference what attracts them and what attracts males.


Actually, no. Not about the human thing, of course all of them are human. Well, almost all.

We need to understand how attraction works for *both* men and women. And so far research in the area seems to suggest there is a significant difference in what men look for in their mates and what women look for.

The OMG!!WEREALLDASAME!!!1 reaction is the equivalent of burying your head in the sand.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

heroin said:


> Actually, no. Not about the human thing, of course all of them are human. Well, almost all.
> 
> We need to understand how attraction works for *both* men and women. And so far research in the area seems to suggest there is a significant difference in what men look for in their mates and what women look for.
> 
> The OMG!!WEREALLDASAME!!!1 reaction is the equivalent of burying your head in the sand.


What I mean by men and women are attracted to the same things = we are attracted to looks, personality, etc. To say a woman and a man aren't attracted to these things is flat wrong. Your taking it to another level and cutting into specifics of a category such as personality (i.e. what specific parts of a personality, physical appearance). To that I say, duh! But I wasn't even trying to go there, and this thread wasn't even trying to go there. I'm speaking broadly when I say men and women are both attracted to physical attributes and well as personality. In that, we are all the same. If your going down to the chemical differences and responses due to that and what attracts what chemically, etc, then are variations. I'm talking about the broad spectrum. IN that, we are all the same. But before you up-rally with everything I say, what is this "significant difference" you speak of? Strength? Child bearing attributes, etc? There is, after all, a reason why a man has a penis and a woman a vagina. I'm sure I've already heard them, and I don't disprove of those differences.

I think a better thread for you to prove your point would be: What specific things physically and personality-wise do men and women differ? Maybe you should start your own poll.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

Johnny_Genome said:


> If you're doing everything to look and feel your best, then it doesn't matter which attracts girls -- it is what it is. C'est la vie.


I think ths reall nails it.

Your looks and personality, personality and looks, are what attracts a person to you sexually. Whatever kindness your genes may or may not have bestowed on you, you'll be fine if you don't insist on any particular outcome, pay reasonable attention to your appearance, do things that interest you and make you happy, and make an effort to talk with people.


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## Noll (Mar 29, 2011)

If girls only go after looks, maybe they should look at themselves first...?

I mean, what would girls do if guys only cared about looks?


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

joinmartin said:


> Well, asking a question like this was going to attract the bat**** crazy TFL crew (not a reference to anyone on this website but instead a reference to the lunatics like Bill "I am a sexist pig" and that Hoca chap who cannot tell the difference between TV shows and real life and makes vauge assumptions about people he sees on the street...and thinks far too much about skidmarks on women's underwear).
> 
> The whole "the CIA and the new world order conditioned women not to like us" nonsense drivel seems to be quite powerful on the internet these days.
> 
> ...


Go out and see test? Everyone else seems to think the same, these guys just rant and don't do anything, etc. Some of them are actually VERY proactive. The matter of doing whatever they need to do isn't the problem. The problem is they get rejected every single time no matter what. It doesn't matter how low standards and expectations they have, how their attitude is, the bottom line is......there are males who just can't compete, for some reason. Just 100% rejection. Which leads to what I call an "involuntary celibate" life. Which is a tough reality. Yes, the government stuff is total bologna, but they make alot of good points on other things.

Oh and I don't know if you are aware of this, but Mr. Steve Hoca has a girlfriend. From the philippines. After he got rejected so much here by women in the US, he went over there and got lucky. You really have no idea what you're talking about dude.


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## caflme (Jun 7, 2009)

ACTIONS... someone just being themself and acting goofy or hyper or intense or just slugging out and hanging around.. as long as they aren't trying to impress someone or be something they aren't. I guess that would be Personality... OK, I'll go do that... but it really feels like it doesn't describe it for me... maybe it's the combination of all three. Only two choices doesn't do it justice.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Some of what Mr. Hoca says is common sense. I agree with the bit about a generation becoming more isolated.

The rest of it, however, is pure misogyny.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Bill "The Mad Hatter" Greathouse is either a mega troll or just a schizophrenic off his meds.

What am I watching.....


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## IfWinterEnds (Jun 4, 2010)

Everyone knows what kind of personality they are into and create an image of what the person who has this personality looks like. When you see the person who fits this image, you're attracted because hey, based on their looks, they have the personality that you're into and that's what you'll really value in the end.


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## JimmyDeansRetartedCousin (Nov 28, 2009)

A chocolate penis that ejaculates money.


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## StevenGlansberg (Apr 1, 2009)

JimmyDeansRetartedCousin said:


> A chocolate penis that ejaculates money.


lol.


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## ImWeird (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm no woman, but if I had to guess, probably a mix of the two.


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## ManOnTheMOON (Aug 14, 2009)

Kennnie said:


> Looks get the girl, Personality gets her too stay.


Gotta agree with Kenny. I think if you're a nice guy without being a doormat she will stay.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

JimmyDeansRetartedCousin said:


> A chocolate penis that ejaculates money.


This is the funniest thing I've ever heard!


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## Los7 (Jan 11, 2011)

I'd say looks will get you more women but personality will let you find the ones worth keeping.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Los7 said:


> I'd say looks will get you more women but personality will let you find the ones worth keeping.


What if you don't have looks? Then you never get the girls?

And on and on it goes...


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

Physical attraction is an immediate, shallow response all people have.
I have gone on dates with people I found physically attractive and people I haven't. 
Looks play a part, but when it comes down to it looks don't make a relationship last and many women will give a guy they find less than attractive a chance ( I can't speak for men), because personality will make a person attractive. Once people start to love someone, no matter how the person looks, to them they are the most attractive person.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

I say none of this is true. No matter how confident personality, looks, money, humor, you have or all if the girl isnt" attracted to you than theres nothing she can do. Attraction isnt a choice".


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> I say none of this is true. No matter how confident personality, looks, money, humor, you have or all if the girl isnt" attracted to you than theres nothing she can do. Attraction isnt a choice".


Probably very true.

Attraction is a combination of looks, personality, values, and chance.


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## CK1708 (Mar 30, 2011)

Most girls will say looks and most guys will say looks and *personalty*


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## foe (Oct 10, 2010)

I guess I don't have either one. 

And I don't have money either. You need one of those 3 to get girls. I struck out on all three requirements.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

foe said:


> I guess I don't have either one.
> 
> And I don't have money either. You need one of those 3 to get girls. I struck out on all three requirements.


Yeah, because there's a bunch of girls going around with identical lists? Erm...nope. Girls have varied, rich and evolving "requirements" so how do you know you struck out on all three requirements?


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

WintersTale said:


> What if you don't have looks? Then you never get the girls?
> 
> And on and on it goes...


This conversation, in some parts, seem stuck on the idea that: "ONE LOOK AND ONE LOOK ALONE GETS YOU THE GIRLS". Pure TFL inspired crap.

Looks do not mean one thing or one set of thing. Vague assumptions about "not having looks" doesn't really help anything. All it does is create a negativity cycle that can't possibly help anyone get anything.


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

Looks open the door.
Personality keeps you in the house.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

You can't just go around as a guy being unemployed and having a screwed up living situation or whatever. That stuff is common sense.


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## Space Ghost (Jul 13, 2010)

I see a lot of charming, scrubby dudes with hot chicks.


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## Haydsmom2007 (Oct 16, 2009)

more so personality. with my social issues a good personality is a must. I have only a select few people that I am comfortable around.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

stopitidontlikeit said:


> You can't say it is shallow to look for a deep personality. Shallow and deep are complete opposites. :roll


Shallow here is used to refer to the preference, not the personality. lrn2englishcomprehensionplz.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

stopitidontlikeit said:


> I was referring to the preference. It is shallow to care only about looks because looks are merely on the surface. Personality is what makes the person beneath the surface so it is not shallow to look for a good personality. You need to learn the definition of shallow.


Personality is pretty evident on the surface. And it is something that one projects. You don't necessarily have to dig deep. And most don't anyway. As has been stated so many times on here, a confident personality is pretty much a requirement for a lot of women to feel any kind of attraction. I'd say that is rather shallow.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

heroin said:


> Personality is pretty evident on the surface. And it is something that one projects. You don't necessarily have to dig deep. And most don't anyway. As has been stated so many times on here, a confident personality is pretty much a requirement for a lot of women to feel any kind of attraction. I'd say that is rather shallow.


Personality pretty evident on the surface? How so? Are you saying that you can read a person's personality simply by engaging with them on a surface level of interaction?

You speak of "projection" which makes me think you're mixing up "persona" with "personality". Yes, many people do project different personas according to different contexts and situations. But that's not automatically an expression of the structure of the personality as a whole.

Would it not be fair to say that, if personality were so easy to judge on a surface, non deep level, con men would simply not exist as everyone would be able to spot them and their true nature and or intentions?

What appears expressed on here so many times are references to "confidence" which is often a relative, subjective term amongst women and amongst men too. Not "confident personality". Rather, an expression of confidence and confidently expressing the personality and being at ease with the self. Asking that of someone may well be a tall order given certain circumstances but it isn't a shallow request.


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## Procster (Nov 1, 2009)

I gather they're more concerned with personality in general..

But tbh, I'm only posting cos I want to say, that is one of the most terrible uses of apostrophes I have ever seen. Don't mean to be nasty, but honestly! Do you stick one in every word that ends in an s??


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## atticusfinch (Dec 18, 2010)

pita said:


> Extra apostrophes do it for me.


oh gurrl, i see what ya did there.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> You can't just go around as a guy being unemployed and having a screwed up living situation or whatever. That stuff is common sense.


No, it is far from common sense. Who says you can't?

What is a screwed up living situation?

Are you saying nobody with problems attracts women/men?

Are you saying all men in relationships/dating must already have good jobs?

What common sense actually tells us is that people with all manner of "living situations" and all manner of employment statuses get into relationships and go on dates and are attractive to people.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I've seen some pretty good looking guys who are single, and some incredibly ugly guys who have beautiful girlfriends.

I think I am average to slightly above average looking, and I am single. I blame my anxiety and social avoidance.

I think relationships are born out of common interests and compatibility. Not cold approaches. That might work for the extremely good looking, for a one night stand, but for the rest of us (who want more), we have to actually go out and meet people. That's not going to work, with us sitting on the computer all day and not leaving home.

Yeah, I know, panic attacks. Well, which would you rather have...a panic attack, or a beautiful girlfriend?

And girls only have it slightly easier. Being that they are the pursued, they can pick and choose, but if they're also scared they won't choose.


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## NobodysPerfect (May 22, 2011)

Ofcourse there has to be some degree of physical attraction but personality is way more important and you might not find someone physically as appealing straight away but once you get to know them they become increasingly more attractive the more time you spend with them, see them etc (obviously providing they have a nice personality) and then you see them as equally attractive looks wise as you do personality wise. In my opinion, i'd rather be with someone unstereotypically attractive but with a terrific personality then a guy who's stereotypically good looking but with zero personality. I have gone on dates with stereotypically good looking guys with bad personalities and no connection and gone on dates with guys that although i was attracted to to a degree, i didn't think i'd fancy but because they had genuinely nice personalities and we had a connection i dated them instead.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Joinmartin:

One thing I learned is this - If I don't make alot of money, and an actual female on this entire planet is ever interested in me at some point, at least I will know she's not into me for money. Again, if you have no money, and a real female is attracted to you, at least you know it's not for money. Right? This is just fantasy though because ALL of them care about money lol . Even though they want independence backed by their feminist movement.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> Joinmartin:
> 
> One thing I learned is this - If I don't make alot of money, and an actual female on this entire planet is ever interested in me at some point, at least I will know she's not into me for money. Again, if you have no money, and a real female is attracted to you, at least you know it's not for money. Right? This is just fantasy though because ALL of them care about money lol . Even though they want independence backed by their feminist movement.


Yeah. Or you could assume she's attracted you for some other external thing. Or that she actually likes you for you regardless of the money you make. Never met a woman who cared about how much money I made.


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## Mr Blues (Apr 1, 2011)

joinmartin said:


> Yeah. Or you could assume she's attracted you for some other external thing. Or that she actually likes you for you regardless of the money you make. Never met a woman who cared about how much money I made.


I don't currently have your regular 9-5 job. My chosen line of work is a very unstable one (session musician), but it's the only thing I can manage due to my SA.

Well, on the dating sites I use, 90% of the time the girl I am talking to will lose interest and suddenly stop responding to me once I mention what I do.

So I don't completely agree with that.


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## watashi (Feb 6, 2008)

Mr Blues said:


> I don't currently have your regular 9-5 job. My chosen line of work is a very unstable one (session musician), but it's the only thing I can manage due to my SA.
> 
> Well, on the dating sites I use, 90% of the time the girl I am talking to will lose interest and suddenly stop responding to me once I mention what I do.


Must be some shallow ladies. Musicians are cool.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Mr Blues said:


> I don't currently have your regular 9-5 job. My chosen line of work is a very unstable one (session musician), but it's the only thing I can manage due to my SA.
> 
> Well, on the dating sites I use, 90% of the time the girl I am talking to will lose interest and suddenly stop responding to me once I mention what I do.
> 
> So I don't completely agree with that.


Exactly, musicians are cool. how are you talking about what you do?

My line of work is unstable too. I'm not guaranteed clients after all.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

joinmartin said:


> Yeah. Or you could assume she's attracted you for some other external thing. Or that she actually likes you for you regardless of the money you make. Never met a woman who cared about how much money I made.


You must have had something else to make up for it. Guys like me don't though. Plus you live in a different country. I have lots of things against me. Even at the young age I am. I will be joining a dating site soon (when I'm ready) since I finally managed to get my first ever job (pay sucks, but america is still in a bad recession despite what fox news says) so now maybe a female(s) will look at me as a real human. But again, everything else is against me. I still lack the social charm. I'm still a loner. My looks might get me past the physical attraction but once the real me is seen, it's game over.

Once the real you is seen, it's lights out from women. I know some guys here will agree with that.


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## Mr Blues (Apr 1, 2011)

joinmartin said:


> Exactly, musicians are cool. how are you talking about what you do?
> 
> My line of work is unstable too. I'm not guaranteed clients after all.


Well I have found it has mostly been the girl who has brought it up (I generally won't say anything about myself unless asked).

The last girl said 'so what are you doing with your life?'. I already state in my profile what I do, so I find this odd they have to ask.

Anyway I responded saying I did two years of college but took a break from that and am currently doing what I love which is playing music.

This was then met with no further messages from her, and she even deleted all my messages!

And this has happened more than once. Doesn't matter how I word it, it just always gives the same result.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Mr Blues said:


> Well I have found it has mostly been the girl who has brought it up (I generally won't say anything about myself unless asked).
> 
> The last girl said 'so what are you doing with your life?'. I already state in my profile what I do, so I find this odd they have to ask.
> 
> ...


There are some people in life and on here who love what I say and do. And there are those who think I am barking mad. And I have come to be okay with that. You can't control how some girl is gonna respond to what you said and there's gonna be loads of reasons that prompt someone's responses.

If you love playing music, start by talking about that. The college stuff doesn't excite you, I'm guessing? So talk about the music first. Open it up and ask her what kind of music she likes, has she ever been to any gigs you've done, has she heard of the bands you play with, the music you've done, talk about how the people who hear the music you do react and how it makes you feel to be doing the music.

People sometimes forget what they say in your profile so it's natural for people to ask or to use it as conversation starters.


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## Mr Blues (Apr 1, 2011)

joinmartin said:


> There are some people in life and on here who love what I say and do. And there are those who think I am barking mad. And I have come to be okay with that. You can't control how some girl is gonna respond to what you said and there's gonna be loads of reasons that prompt someone's responses.
> 
> If you love playing music, start by talking about that. The college stuff doesn't excite you, I'm guessing? So talk about the music first. Open it up and ask her what kind of music she likes, has she ever been to any gigs you've done, has she heard of the bands you play with, the music you've done, talk about how the people who hear the music you do react and how it makes you feel to be doing the music.
> 
> People sometimes forget what they say in your profile so it's natural for people to ask or to use it as conversation starters.


I have gone off dating sites for the time being. I will keep your advice in mind though, when I go back to them. Thanks for the words of wisdom.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> Or that she actually likes you for you regardless of the money you make. Never met a woman who cared about how much money I made.


You're both wrong.
Money is far from everything, but it's not a complete non-issue either.
It really is that way with most things.

There was a debate on tv Sunday about men's role in modern society where they had 4 successful women in the studio. The question was asked, since men had traditionally married downward socially, if now that women we becoming more successful and getting more power, if they now had a moral responsibility or an obligation to look out and provide for the less fortunate men as well.
They responded, that while they would definitely help their partner get back on his feet if he had problems, he had to have drive, motivation and other traits of success for them to respect him. A self-proclaimed feminist even said that any such moral responsibility, to look out for others in your private life, was fascism.

I don't mean to say all women will agree with them, not at all.
But we do need respect for the person we're with, and what we respect isn't a completely open question, but is influenced by our culture and the ideals within that culture.
There will be people of either gender that do not fit in with that and from that will have a harder time than others.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm a genuine person. Or at least more genuine then others. If I'm out somewhere and someone goes out of their way to talk to me or say how are you doing or starts a conversation I'm going to be nice and respectful and try my best to talk with them without screwing up. I'm not going to refuse to talk to someone or ignore someone's existance just because they aren't attractive or they aren't a wall street CEO with a 400k yearly salary or because they are "boring" and "weird" (whatever that is defined by). HOWEVER other people like to stereotype on. I believe in treating others the way I would want to be treated. But as for how I'm treated, well, like I said above. That's what women do to me. Those are the vibes women give me when I cross paths with them. I don't even need to speak with them to know they don't like me not even as a friend. They ignore me. They don't start conversations. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's my job isn't it? (sucks). 

Want proof? Like I've told you many times

I've never had female friends. EVER. 

No interaction. NOTHING. They never wanted me to either.

I've been ignored by them my whole life. 

No dates, no flirting, no kisses, no "sex", nothing

and it's not my fault.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

Mr Blues said:


> I don't currently have your regular 9-5 job. My chosen line of work is a very unstable one (session musician), but it's the only thing I can manage due to my SA.
> 
> Well, on the dating sites I use, *90%* of the time the girl I am talking to will lose interest and suddenly stop responding to me once I mention what I do.
> 
> So I don't completely agree with that.


What about the other 10%? I'm half serious. You may assume that there's something wrong with the few who seem to stay interested after carrer is discussed, but maybe there is something right with them. Right for you.

Also, if you really enjoy music, stay with it as long as you can. The world is littered with guys my age who wish they had tried something unconventional when young, but instead got "serious" about life. Take care of yourself and be responsible, but for ****s sake don't get serious about life.

Being a musician will be a red flag for some women. It doesn't translate into stable or responsible, and some people will think just the opposite. The worst thing you can do, though, is change who you are or drop what you love in order to be more attractive to the opposite sex. More resentful, more bitter, more full of regret, yes. But not more attractive.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

> You're both wrong.
> Money is far from everything, but it's not a complete non-issue either.
> It really is that way with most things.


Since I was suggesting possibilities about what someone might find stranger attractive for (for being himself rather than any one thing) it would be difficult for me to be wrong. Sorry, but money is sometimes (indeed, quite often) not an issue for many people.



> There was a debate on tv Sunday about men's role in modern society where they had 4 successful women in the studio. The question was asked, since men had traditionally married downward socially, if now that women we becoming more successful and getting more power, if they now had a moral responsibility or an obligation to look out and provide for the less fortunate men as well.


False presupposition written into the debate question along the lines of the assumption that men traditionally married downward (relative, subjective term) socially.



> They responded, that while they would definitely help their partner get back on his feet if he had problems, he had to have drive, motivation and other traits of success for them to respect him. A self-proclaimed feminist even said that any such moral responsibility, to look out for others in your private life, was fascism.


Never underestimate what people on debate shows can come out with.



> I don't mean to say all women will agree with them, not at all.
> But we do need respect for the person we're with, and what we respect isn't a completely open question, but is influenced by our culture and the ideals within that culture.


To a degree but the idea that the human being is a passive vessel that soaks this kind of stuff up like a sponge is not true. We interpret these things on individual levels. Respect for the person we are with is just that, respect for the person. Not the money, not the clothes they wear...but for the package and for the person inside the package.



> There will be people of either gender that do not fit in with that and from that will have a harder time than others.


That does not follow. Are you saying that because some people on some show argued about something there are automatically people who lie outside of some cultural framework that we all passively and automatically operate from and understand?


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> I'm a genuine person. Or at least more genuine then others. If I'm out somewhere and someone goes out of their way to talk to me or say how are you doing or starts a conversation I'm going to be nice and respectful and try my best to talk with them without screwing up. I'm not going to refuse to talk to someone or ignore someone's existance just because they aren't attractive or they aren't a wall street CEO with a 400k yearly salary or because they are "boring" and "weird" (whatever that is defined by). HOWEVER other people like to stereotype on. I believe in treating others the way I would want to be treated. But as for how I'm treated, well, like I said above. That's what women do to me. Those are the vibes women give me when I cross paths with them. I don't even need to speak with them to know they don't like me not even as a friend. They ignore me. They don't start conversations. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's my job isn't it? (sucks).
> 
> Want proof? Like I've told you many times
> 
> ...


With love and respect, you don't need to speak with them to know they don't like you? So, how do you come to that decision?

And vibes? You interpret vibes. We all do. We all make mistakes when interpreting the vibes given off by others.

Your lack of female interaction is obviously upsetting for you but it's not proof that women somehow discriminate against you or anyone else. Indeed, you claim you don't interact with women and then complain that they don't interact with you. You judge them on a big massive framework that they "do things" to you and then say that you treat people like you want to be treated. So, would you want to be treated as if you were automatically part of some group of people who went out discriminating against other people based on some stuff like looks or whatever?


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> Sorry, but money is sometimes (indeed, quite often) not an issue for many people.


I think you're greatly misinterpreting what you're seeing.
For the most part, people just fall with a comparable norm, where it doesn't matter much, but fall on either extreme end and it can start to matter in what you choose.



joinmartin said:


> To a degree but the idea that the human being is a passive vessel that soaks this kind of stuff up like a sponge is not true. We interpret these things on individual levels. Respect for the person we are with is just that, respect for the person. Not the money, not the clothes they wear...but for the package and for the person inside the package.


Are you suggesting your thoughts and ideals are completely your own and not shaped by your environment?
That people of different cultures grow up with different views, beliefs and ideals due to their genetics perhaps?
I would love for universal respect and equality of people just from being human beings, and it is definitely something that should be sought after, but believing you have already achieved it legitimises inaction towards bettering yourself.



joinmartin said:


> That does not follow. Are you saying that because some people on some show argued about something there are automatically people who lie outside of some cultural framework that we all passively and automatically operate from and understand?


I find it troubling that an alledged mental health professional fails to understand the very nature of culture and the influences and implications it has on the people within that culture. And indeed also the trivialising and belittling comments you make to argue your point..
There indeed is a cultural framework that we learn (more or less well) by being raised in it. People do not mirror this culture 100% accurately and without exception, but it does lay general trends and ideas - a foundation.
There will be some that do not fit in with these ideas unquestionably and that will face difficulty because of this.

I would even argue that it's very dangerous to blind yourself to this possibility.
If there is no 'structural unfairness', every problem every person could ever face is their own fault. That's a lot of responsibility you're quickly voiding yourself of, only to put in on the person who has the problem.
If there were no such social rules of interaction, there would be nothing the individual could try in order to better their situation.
But then I guess if there were no such rules, there would be no 'fitting in' to be done in the first place, because by definition, no group would exist.

I'm reminded of when I told my psychiatrist I was bullied in school and he started to ask what I had done that made me a bully victim.. (talking strange, walking funny and so on).


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

> I think you're greatly misinterpreting what you're seeing.
> For the most part, people just fall with a comparable norm, where it doesn't matter much, but fall on either extreme end and it can start to matter in what you choose.


Nope. It's an individual thing. Yes, the culture can exert some influence but such influence is interpreted through subjective experience. Many people do not care at all about how much money someone earns when getting to know them. That's not me misinterpreting anything. That's a fact.



> Are you suggesting your thoughts and ideals are completely your own and not shaped by your environment?
> That people of different cultures grow up with different views, beliefs and ideals due to their genetics perhaps?


Cultural viewpoints are passed on through the genes? Show me that on a DNA blueprint.

My thoughts and ideas come from all manner of places and yes, some originated in me. But the influence of other people and other ideas and of culture is interpreted through me in order for me to understand it. I am not a sponge who just takes on board other people's ideas no matter what and neither is any other human.



> I would love for universal respect and equality of people just from being human beings, and it is definitely something that should be sought after, but believing you have already achieved it legitimises inaction towards bettering yourself.


I don't believe I've already achieved it. But assumptions that it isn't in the present moment are dangerous. Constantly striving to become some idea of "better" instead of actually living life is also dangerous. Indeed, living life and accepting oneself just as one is actually opens up change to happen automatically.



> I find it troubling that an alledged mental health professional fails to understand the very nature of culture and the influences and implications it has on the people within that culture. And indeed also the trivialising and belittling comments you make to argue your point..


I have not been trivialising or belittling. I respect you and your argument. I just disagree with it.

And alleged mental health professional? Well, yep, I am qualified. And I am also a man with views and opinions. I speak here as both.

Culture has a power and so does influence. But it is not a controlling power. We have to individually interpret cultural influences in order to understand them. We are not passive vessels.



> There indeed is a cultural framework that we learn (more or less well) by being raised in it. People do not mirror this culture 100% accurately and without exception, but it does lay general trends and ideas - a foundation.


We learn all things from our culture? No, we don't. We are more than a product of our culture. General trends may very well exist but the idea that everyone follows them or they all use them all the time as foundations is just not true. People break away from their cultures, people change their cultural teachings, we interpret our place in the world rather than simply accepting what we are told.



> I would even argue that it's very dangerous to blind yourself to this possibility.


Perhaps. But I'm English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh. And I can be informed by many things from those cultures. But not controlled by them. I am me. Not my culture. There is a difference. The individual is not simply the product of a culture. It has a heart and blood and pulse of its very own.



> If there is no 'structural unfairness', every problem every person could ever face is their own fault. That's a lot of responsibility you're quickly voiding yourself of, only to put in on the person who has the problem.


With love and respect, your reasoning does not follow. I'm not voiding myself of any responsibility. Or encouraging anyone else to do so either. I'm not putting anything on anyone.

Assumptions about apparent unfairness in culture are very dangerous. They help to create learned helplessness and devoid people of having choices to generate their own personal change. I'm not voiding anyone of anything. My mission is to help people take back control over their lives not to blame them for their lives or problems. Its about choice not fault.

Sometimes circumstance has power over us. Sometimes other things do. But we have and can take back choices to do something about it and it is a liberating experience to realise that. The issue doesn't have to win.



> If there were no such social rules of interaction, there would be nothing the individual could try in order to better their situation.


Not true. Social rules are indeed relative and subjective and context specific but they are not hard and fast rules of the universe. Socialising is about having fun and expressing yourself. Reducing the power of so called rules in situations gives people more choice about how they act and react. That they can be themselves and break the rules if they want to.



> But then I guess if there were no such rules, there would be no 'fitting in' to be done in the first place, because by definition, no group would exist.


Why fit in when you can be yourself and be loved for being yourself too?



> I'm reminded of when I told my psychiatrist I was bullied in school and he started to ask what I had done that made me a bully victim.. (talking strange, walking funny and so on).


I don't know the person involved but we don't ask those questions to pin the blame on you. We ask to get detail of the picture of what happened. You were bullied. I'm sorry to hear that. And if you think my words bully you, believe me, they don't. I would love to discuss this further with you because you have a mind that gives me a run for my money and I hope you share your gifts with the world as you are doing so here. Bullying was not your fault. But we always need to get a picture of what was going on.



> There will be some that do not fit in with these ideas unquestionably and that will face difficulty because of this


I doubt that. The real world is not high school. People can just be themselves and be loved for it. It does not have to be about fitting in or being like other people. It has to be with being you. If someone excludes you, is what they've excluded you from always good stuff? Do you want to be with people who treat you like that?


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> [lots of stuff]


I do think you're misinterpretting.
Clothes, appearance, lifestyle.. all those things say something about your perceived social status and they do play in when people get to know you.
It's not a matter of money directly, and far from a question of that alone (or even in any dominant way), but it does have a say indirectly.

No, I wasn't saying culture is passed through the genes.
I was asking if that was what you were suggesting.
Again, I wasn't saying you take in everything other people present you with and pass it off as your own.
But even the language with which we order and understand our own thoughts is something we are taught, so our environments do have a mighty big effect on our understanding of the world.
I do not believe we are born with as strong a sense of identity that you're suggesting, but rather that it is something we pick up along the way - especially formed by our very early childhood.
These new impressions of course have to be interpreted by our biology, but I believe in the end, the stimuli far outweighs the initial conditions.
Even something as what food we like is learned both through cultivation and psychological memories of eating said food.

I use the term culture in the broad sense and not on a national, stereotypical level.
Social rules are part of the culture in that particular setting.
Again I am reminded of a tv programme, this time one detailing life in the late 1800s. Back then there were very clear rules for how to behave in turn how to get accepted. These strict dress codes and manners can be seen as restricting, but in another way they were liberating; your social belonging to any group was a given, not something you had to define yourself, and as long as you played by the explicit rules of that group, you were not excluded.
Today we don't have those explicit rules, but instead a lot of implicit ones.
There is more uncertainty about what is accepted and what is prefered, and it is now up to us to decipher and interpret things correctly.
I do not believe we can ever be free and completely independent individuals. Nobody can handle complete chaos and unpredictability, so we group and generalise, and that's where the rules come from.

"Being yourself" is essentially a meaningless phrase. You can never _not _be yourself.
But you can try finding what you are comfortable with.
Surely you recognise though, that some people are excluded for being too different? I think we both agree ideally they shouldn't stop being different because of that. But we do need love from others and we do long for connections with others, so if these rejections keep happening, it does lead to emotional problems and insecurities, that just saying "be yourself" does not address or help. And these need to be addressed at the structural level if people ever are to be able to really "be themselves".
Otherwise "being youself" will only benefit those, whose self happens to be what fits in.

I guess it can be compared to economics somewhat.
It's largely us in the west that define the system for how things should be, and then when others encounter difficulties with that system, we use our own logic to explain and justify their worse position.
The system inherently favours the resourceful, but we pretend resources are something all people have equally; that they are independent of environment and initial conditions.
The result is a system where the odds are stacked against certain people, and we legitimise our own inaction towards it.


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## christ~in~me (Dec 18, 2008)

i think personality is more important that anything,there has to be some kind of attraction but to me personality is the most important


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

christ~in~me said:


> i think personality is more important that anything,there has to be some kind of attraction but to me personality is the most important


Made me realise I had completely forgotten the topic of this thread, sorry >.>

Voted personality.
I'm confident that must be the most important thing to far most people.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

What if you're a millionaire, and you prefer going around in ripped jeans and a t shirt? Because those people DO exist, you know.

Clothes really say nothing about a person. Mine say that I like the bands whose tees I wear, but it says nothing about how wealthy or not I am. I wore the same clothes I did when I was in a job, as now when I'm unemployed.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

everything matters. Im just a step away from the game. thats it and have a long ways to go.


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## StarDude (May 29, 2011)

1.)Looks
2.)Money
...
...
...
5,674.)Personality
That's how I feel it is from past experiences... :-l


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

If looks are the number 1 thing then why aren't all men or women in relationships looking like models?


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## sanspants08 (Oct 21, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> If looks are the number 1 thing then why aren't all men or women in relationships looking like models?


Because models represent the extreme end of the spectrum, and physical attractiveness is subjective.

Both looks and personality definitely matter. The degree to which either matters will depend on the context in which the relationship is developed, I think.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Ok, so 

"Women want a guy with money"

everyones response:

"what kind of women are you going for and getting?"

um, none. That's the point. I'm weeded out before I could even begin. And that's how it is for sooooooooooooooooooooo many guys out there. Not just the TFL guys, but thousands of men in all western countries of all ages. Theres plenty on forums like this, and on dating sites, who get rejected 100% of the time no matter what they do. No matter what.

Someone told me it's mostly the 8, 9, and 10 girls who look at your money and job but I think all of them do.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

joinmartin said:


> With love and respect, you don't need to speak with them to know they don't like you? So, how do you come to that decision?
> 
> And vibes? You interpret vibes. We all do. We all make mistakes when interpreting the vibes given off by others.
> 
> Your lack of female interaction is obviously upsetting for you but it's not proof that women somehow discriminate against you or anyone else. Indeed, you claim you don't interact with women and then complain that they don't interact with you. You judge them on a big massive framework that they "do things" to you and then say that you treat people like you want to be treated. So, would you want to be treated as if you were automatically part of some group of people who went out discriminating against other people based on some stuff like looks or whatever?


It is proof. The vibes are accurate. The "get away from me looks" when I'm paying for something at a cash register. The "stop sitting on that chair 3 rows down from me" stare. The "move out of my way cause you don't exist in my world" stare. Why do I have to be the one who approaches? I'm not saying I ever would, but I despise these roles the universe created. I don't ignore peoples existance when I go out. I just don't see how it's possible to do that and stay sane at the same time but apparently other people enjoy doing that. Like I said, I'm not going to refuse to get to know somebody who talks to me in public because they're not a wall street CEO or Bill Gates. That's how alot of other people are though. Nobody believes me when I tell them this secret about me. They just can't comprehend the fact that a guy can end up this way. But it's the truth. Yes it's possible to end up being in your 20's and never interacting with a real girl. Sad but it's the life guys like me are stuck to live....


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

stranger25 said:


> It is proof. The vibes are accurate. The "get away from me looks" when I'm paying for something at a cash register. The "stop sitting on that chair 3 rows down from me" stare. The "move out of my way cause you don't exist in my world" stare. Why do I have to be the one who approaches? I'm not saying I ever would, but I despise these roles the universe created. I don't ignore peoples existance when I go out. I just don't see how it's possible to do that and stay sane at the same time but apparently other people enjoy doing that. Like I said, I'm not going to refuse to get to know somebody who talks to me in public because they're not a wall street CEO or Bill Gates. That's how alot of other people are though. Nobody believes me when I tell them this secret about me. They just can't comprehend the fact that a guy can end up this way. But it's the truth. Yes it's possible to end up being in your 20's and never interacting with a real girl. Sad but it's the life guys like me are stuck to live....


You don't have to be the one that approaches. But you have to put yourself in the opportunity to make it happen. Yeah sure you complain, but in the midst, I realize you do have some looks factors to make it happen. If you see a nice girl, sit down next to her. Put yourself in the position.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

stranger25 said:


> It is proof. The vibes are accurate. The "get away from me looks" when I'm paying for something at a cash register. The "stop sitting on that chair 3 rows down from me" stare. The "move out of my way cause you don't exist in my world" stare.


I know what you're talking about. I get those sometimes too. But not just from women, I get plenty of nasty reactions from men as well.

But so what? You have to deal with them. Maybe I just grew up in a city where if you aren't confrontational, you'll be treated like ****. People are scum. You need to learn to deal with them.

Someone stares at you, you stare back imagining that you just want to puch his throat in. Someone is impolite to you, you have full licence to insult them to the point of making them cry. The world is not a nice place, you don't have to be nice. If you don't respect yourself enough to not accept unprovoked slights by people, they'll not respect you either.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

> ]It is proof. The vibes are accurate. The "get away from me looks" when I'm paying for something at a cash register.


How do you know the look means that? You've decided to make that interpretation of someone looking at you.



> The "stop sitting on that chair 3 rows down from me" stare.


Another interpretation of someone looking at you.



> The "move out of my way cause you don't exist in my world" stare.


Another interpretation of someone looking at you.

With respect, for all you know, those looks meant entirely different things to what you thought they did.



> Why do I have to be the one who approaches? I'm not saying I ever would, but I despise these roles the universe created.


The universe? I think the universe was a little bit too busy to create such roles. The whole "has to be the guy approaching" thing is a stereotype. It's not a "have to" at all. You can get women coming to you and you can interact in social groups with women and guys and get connected that way,



> I don't ignore peoples existance when I go out. I just don't see how it's possible to do that and stay sane at the same time but apparently other people enjoy doing that.


With respect, this doesn't make sense. First of all people are noticing you so much that they're giving you evil eyes all the time and now people are ignoring your existence?



> Like I said, I'm not going to refuse to get to know somebody who talks to me in public because they're not a wall street CEO or Bill Gates.


And neither will a lot of people in this world.



> That's how alot of other people are though.


And you know this how? How do you know that there's loads of people ignoring people because they're not Bill Gates?



> Nobody believes me when I tell them this secret about me. They just can't comprehend the fact that a guy can end up this way. But it's the truth. Yes it's possible to end up being in your 20's and never interacting with a real girl. Sad but it's the life guys like me are stuck to live....


Erm...it's pretty easy for most people to accept the idea that men and women get frustrated in the dating world for a variety of reasons.

You've had some bad experiences and some frustrations. Sorry about that. But you're not stuck to live anything. You do keep making sure you're stuck though. You keep on with this "guys like me..." stuff which keeps trying to make out that there's this group who are automatically shunned by women.

That mindset is what stops you. Not women's standards, not lack of looks or money. Simply that mindset. Because it constantly forces you to not do anything about the situation, forces you not to trust yourself, forces you not to progress or make changes. No man in this is doomed unless he dooms himself.


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## seafolly (Jun 17, 2010)

One can't go without the other.

Take Bradley Cooper for example. Now he is one rather good looking dude. I was rather infatuated with him until I heard him in an interview and I couldn't quite tell if what he was saying was ingenuine or simply not that bright but in any case, he didn't come off as perfectly as I'd have hoped. The result? He doesn't seem as attractive anymore.

It works the other way around. You can take a plain looking guy and add the perfect personality and suddenly the attractive level rockets skyward.


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## rockguitarist89 (Sep 22, 2010)

This is one of those questions where the answer is both. Attraction generally starts with looks. Peronality comes into play once you actually obeserve how the other person acts or once you actually talk to them. There are plenty of ugly guys with hot girls, and vice versa. There are always going to be people with "standards" that they or society has set and they will not date you. Just move on and talk to the next person in these cases b/c its not worth your time or effort.


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## Evolved (Jun 3, 2011)

Initially? Looks. There has to be some sort of mutual physical attraction there to spark interest at the beginning (let's face it - humans are visual creatures, that's undeniable). After that, personality becomes increasingly important.


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## MoniqueS (Feb 21, 2011)

its a combination of both.


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## angus (Dec 18, 2010)

Social status and money. 
Sorry to be cynical but it's true.


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## 4realguy (Mar 11, 2010)

who knows girls are to difficult to figure out.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

angus said:


> Social status and money.
> Sorry to be cynical but it's true.


No it is not true. But it might be true inside your head so one has to respect that.

If it were true, the only men dating would be really rich and always popular with huge amounts of friends. That is not a reality of this world.

Bill Gates does not have a Playboy mansion now does he?


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## theseshackles (Apr 23, 2011)

joinmartin said:


> No it is not true. But it might be true inside your head so one has to respect that.


Social status does play an important role, sadly. Money is less of a deal breaker.

If you are a loner the chances of you ending up in a healthy/ideal relationship will be slim to none. If you have no life, no friends, your girlfriend will be very embarrassed about that. Girls talk a lot, and they always like to have something positive to say about their boyfriends for 'bragging rights'. Social status plays on non-verbal tones. The more people you know the more people will want to know you. Same thing with the more girls you talk to the more girls will want you, because they will pick up on your ability to show women a good time.

Actions speak louder than words. I shouldn't have to tell a girl I can show her a good time, she should be able see that through my ability to rap with different people.

Life becomes hard when you have nothing to show.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

> Social status does play an important role, sadly. Money is less of a deal breaker.


Neither of those are deal breakers at all. At least, not on a general level. Seriously, loads of girls do not care about money or whether you're the most popular guy in a social group. If all of them did, you'd only see one type of guy getting girls and that's not what happens.



> If you are a loner the chances of you ending up in a healthy/ideal relationship will be slim to none.


Perhaps. But that's more to do with the individual themselves not meeting anyone than it is to do with anyone's "requirements".



> If you have no life, no friends, your girlfriend will be very embarrassed about that.


That's an assumption about a girl's reactions to things when, in truth, the guy has no idea what the girl would think in such a situation.



> Girls talk a lot, and they always like to have something positive to say about their boyfriends for 'bragging rights'.


Some may well do that. But even if the guy was a loner they could still, one hopes, have lots of positive things to say about that guy.



> Social status plays on non-verbal tones. The more people you know the more people will want to know you. Same thing with the more girls you talk to the more girls will want you, because they will pick up on your ability to show women a good time.


No matter how popular you are, a lot of people will not wish to engage with you for a variety of reasons. And plus, there is no automatic correlation between you talking with lots of girls and any other girls thinking you know how to show a girl a good time just because they saw you talking to some girls. If they don't like you, you talking to loads of girls in front of them isn't going to automatically change their minds. It might. Depending on the girl but it's not a given.

Social proof is different from social status.



> Actions speak louder than words. I shouldn't have to tell a girl I can show her a good time, she should be able that through my ability to rap with different people.
> 
> Life becomes hard when you have nothing to show.


A girl is not a mind reader. Neither is she automatically a psychotherapist with training in sensory acuity. She sees you can show her a good time through you showing her a good time. I can point out to a girl how her boyfriend behaves in bad ways towards others and she can still love him because it's what he does with her and how he makes her feel that holds the balance. Not in all girls. It's not a given but it happens.

It's not the external stuff that makes the difference here. It's you. Not the past. Not what happened. Not what you haven't already done. All concentrating on that does is limit you for experiencing new things.

We all had to start somewhere. And sometimes, we all have to start again somewhere too. The important thing is that we don't bring the other negative ideas and stories we tell about ourselves into the change making process.


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