# Selective Mutism vs Social Anxiety?



## seeker28 (Dec 9, 2010)

Recently I came across a disorder called Selective mutism. Here is the description from wikipedia:


> Selective mutism is a disorder affecting both children and adults, but mostly children. Children and adults with the disorder are fully capable of speech and understanding language, but can fail to speak in certain social situations when it is expected of them.[2] It is in presentation an inability to speak in certain situations.
> 
> Selective mutism is by definition characterized by the following:
> 
> ...


I am a bit confused whether or not I fit this diagnosis. In some of my classes (especially the bigger ones) I remain completely silent almost every time. I think I haven't participated in my economics class for the last two months. However, this is not because i am physically unable to speak or because I don't know what to say but because I figured that remaining silent causes much less anxiety. When asked a question or forced to speak (e.g when having to give a presentation) I can speak relatively fine, however I tend to keep the answers as short as possible and afterwards I go back to the "silent mode".

I suppose this can be classified as a symptom of "severe social anxiety" rather than SM but I wonder where the boundaries between these two disorders lie.

Does anyone else here avoid speaking completely in certain setting/situations as a result of their SA?


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## someguy8 (Sep 10, 2010)

I have it. I will not speak to someone unless i feel i have to. So in school i would only speak to teachers. I wouldnt talk to other kids even if they tried to talk to me. Just blocked them out without really thinking about it. Going mute keeps me from getting anxious or panicing. And i dont think im really too anxious. Just really hard to open my mouth.


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## TenYears (Jan 15, 2010)

I used to go through bouts of it that lasted for months. I would go days, weeks without speaking to anyone, not even parents, esp in hs. Like Someguy said, I don't speak unless spoken to, something I started doing in hs, and still do now that I'm 40.

I wonder if it has anything to do with a stuttering problem that seems to come out of nowhere for me, also, or if that's just something totally unrelated.

What's strange is I still have the SM, but sometimes, esp in social situations where my anxiety is at it's worst, it's not like "selective" mutism. I open my mouth to speak, and, if my life depended on it, I would not be able to make the words come out. I totally freeze up.


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## Cruella (Mar 19, 2011)

I think there aren't really boundaries between them. I don't really know but someone told me that selective mutism is a part of social anxiety (sorry, don't know how to say it better)

I was diagnosed with selective mutism. I think it often developes in childhood. It's a kind of protection, not only from feeling anxious but also from being in situations you don't know, which are comlicated, which could embarrass you and so on. You start protecting yourself with silence. People will ask you why you don't speak, but at last they will let go of you. And if you do that a lot of times, you get used to it and finally you can't change it anymore. You can't talk, even if you want to badly.

When it gets better and of course sometimes you can force yourself to speak. I mean there are also completely mute people but that's why it's called selective. Talking to teachers, giving small answers is possible but sometimes it's not. It's like there is this one moment when you can say what you like to say but when you can't do it in this tiny moment, it gets too hard.
And when you already are this quiet person, there is also the problem of expectation. People expect you DON'T talk so you don't talk because it would be too surpising if you do. It is terrible when you say something and then people are surprised and say "Wow, you can talk!" or something like that. Most of the time they are happy that you talk (of course in school there are these kids who say it the evil way :roll) well, but the thing is you just want to be "normal", you don't want it to be special when you talk...

Most people think only kids have sm because there is the special case that kids lose it when they grow up and also there is good treatment for younger children. But the older you get, the harder it gets to destroy this wall around you.

When I was a child and went to primary school, I was very excited, I thought I could make new friends and have fun....You should know, I didn't go to kindergarten and my social contacts were limited to family and neighbours... And then when school started I was suprised myself that I couldn't talk to the other kids and I thought they were all just braver than me, you know, that they could overcome this thing that was blocking me. I thought I was the only one in this world that was too stupid and too weak to be normal.
Not until I was in high school and a teacher of mine came across sm, I found out that I'm not alone. And that really helped me a lot.

So I was always very shy and quiet. SM and SA are pretty much involved with eachother. I mean I don't know if I have SA because I can't talk in different situations or if I developed SM because I had SA. Both developed when I was young. It must have been before school. I also didn't really talk to our friends in the neighborhood. And I say "our" because I have two siblings and they were the only other children I talked to. So I don't really know how it started. When I was like 3 or 4 years old I was the happiest kid ever, I talked to everybody.
Sometimes I think or hope that this me is still inside of me. But living with this **** for so long changes you.

I have to work on my issues. I thought it was getting better in college but some incidents happened already and I can't live with that anymore. It was like primary school all over agein when everybody sees you like this frozen stone figurine and you just want to be invisible... This waiting... they wait for you to say something and it's like eternity and you are screaming in your head, you are screaming to yourself to freakin say something but you just can't... 
I made a short animation about it if someone's interested:


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

I bet there are tons of people on SAS with this who can't bring themselves to post to the thread.


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## TenYears (Jan 15, 2010)

Cruella said:


> I think there aren't really boundaries between them. I don't really know but someone told me that selective mutism is a part of social anxiety (sorry, don't know how to say it better)
> 
> I was diagnosed with selective mutism. I think it often developes in childhood. It's a kind of protection, not only from feeling anxious but also from being in situations you don't know, which are comlicated, which could embarrass you and so on. You start protecting yourself with silence. People will ask you why you don't speak, but at last they will let go of you. And if you do that a lot of times, you get used to it and finally you can't change it anymore. You can't talk, even if you want to badly.
> 
> ...


That was a really cool link. It describes how it feels to me, exactly, when I can't find the right words. That's what I do. The whole "screaming in your head" thing, is me, exactly.

I've always thought of it as a kind of "protection" as you said, it's like a wall I put up, it somehow made me feel safer. I remember being 3 & 4 yrs old at my daycare, & finding toys to play with in a corner by myself, always the same corner, away from everyone else, going sometimes an entire day at daycare without talking. None of my teachers ever said anything to my parents though, as far as I know. I realize how wierd that is, a little kid that age should be playing trucks or tag or whatever with other kids. I was never, ever that way, I can't recall ever being a "social" person & then sort of losing the ability, it's like I never had it. Or maybe I did, but at a really, really young age I learned it was in my best interest to shut myself off from the rest of the world. I came from a really ****** up family, there's really no other way to say it...dysfunctional just doesn't quite do it, it was worse. I don't think I've ever felt like there's a normal "me" inside me that I could one day bring out. Maybe there is, maybe buried really deep in there somewhere.

I can relate to the whole "Oh God he can talk!" reaction also. I've gone back & forth a bit, from deciding it's better to say a few words, try to make an introduction, then totally withdraw. Most people tend to leave me alone after that. That versus just being totally shut off & never talking or interacting at all. The problem I've found with completely withdrawing is, there seem to be people out there who are relentless, who will not leave you alone, until they can "get you out of your shell". They seem to think it's their job, or that I need rescuing. Or maybe I make them really uncomforable...the guy who never says a word...what's up with him....:sus

I hope things get better for you in university. Thanks for sharing the link & your perspective, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one in the world. I'm sure I've missed some posts on here, but it doesn't seem like it's talked about much. It's good to know I'm not alone. I kept reading here & there that it was only something little kids had, so it's like a relief to know I'm not the only one. Feel free to pm me or whatever anytime.


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## someguy8 (Sep 10, 2010)

Ive been doing it for aslong as i remember. when i was 3-4 i wouldnt talk to my cousins, aunts, and uncles even when spoken too. I remember one of my aunts saying it was cute. Im so accustomed to doing it now. Like a bad addiction. I cant imagine getting over it ever. I never got help for it when i was a kid like i see so many have on the news. Infact i got encouraged and rewarded to keeping to myself and to never talk while i was a kid by my elementary teachers. Which was a bad idea since highschool and real life work is almost all done in groups or teams. Oh well, ive accepted it now. I see it as if i cant talk to someone its their fault for being so uninteresting. Yea ill never get anywhere but im tired of fighting against myself to speak. I dont freak out in my head anymore when i cant speak.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

seeker28 said:


> Recently I came across a disorder called Selective mutism. Here is the description from wikipedia: I am a bit confused whether or not I fit this diagnosis. In some of my classes (especially the bigger ones) I remain completely silent almost every time. I think I haven't participated in my economics class for the last two months. However, this is not because i am physically unable to speak or because I don't know what to say but because I figured that remaining silent causes much less anxiety. When asked a question or forced to speak (e.g when having to give a presentation) I can speak relatively fine, however I tend to keep the answers as short as possible and afterwards I go back to the "silent mode".
> 
> I suppose this can be classified as a symptom of "severe social anxiety" rather than SM but I wonder where the boundaries between these two disorders lie.
> 
> Does anyone else here avoid speaking completely in certain setting/situations as a result of their SA?


selective mutism should not exist as a seperate disorder with its own name because its just one of the many symptoms of feeling anxious.

people with social anxiety do things when they feel anxious. lots of them go completely silent, others just escape the situation and walk out and others actually talk more when they are anxious

not talking is just one thing that a person does when they feel anxious, its just one symptom of social anxiety. it shouldnt be given its own name and be classed as a seperate disorder.

many people blush when they are feeling anxious but there isnt a disorder called ''facial blushing disorder ''. no it is just accepted that blushing is nothing more than a symptom of feeling anxious just like not talking is too


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## milo001 (Nov 26, 2008)

I had selective mutism as well when i was a child and until now i think there's still some SM left in me.I would fall into silent when i'm nervous like i'll think that something embarassing will happen if i open my mouth.My teachers will said that i'm very quiet and i don't talk to other children and teachers.But none of the teachers and relatives actually know that this is an disorder and i don't even know it myself because we all think that i'm just very shy.

From some of SM videos i watched in youtube i know most of them still have it now when they are in their teenager period.


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## someguy8 (Sep 10, 2010)

paulyD said:


> selective mutism should not exist as a seperate disorder with its own name because its just one of the many symptoms of feeling anxious.
> 
> people with social anxiety do things when they feel anxious. lots of them go completely silent, others just escape the situation and walk out and others actually talk more when they are anxious
> 
> ...


Being selectivley mute isnt comparable to blushing. You might aswell say SAD, ASPD, panic disorder, agoraphobia, and shyness are all the same thing. I know a lot of people think they have sm when they dont. Anyone who gets shy wether they have a disorder or not is going to want to be quiet. As much as people here love to try to find more disorders to put into their collection that is not selective mutism disorder. Its just as ignorant as a "normal" person comparing times hes been shy to someone who has SAD.

And another thing SM isnt treated with anxiety medication and if it is it will most likely make it worse. So i dont think its safe to just put it in the same group.


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## TenYears (Jan 15, 2010)

I agree, you can't throw them all into one basket & say they're the same thing. There are huge, huge differences between being shy & having selective mutism.

I've gone days, weeks, before without speaking, not because I was shy. Not because I had nothing to say. Not because I had no friends. It's a (sometimes involuntary) defense mechanism for me. It's a way of sort of blocking out the world, sometimes to my advantage, and sometimes not...sometimes it works completely against me....when I have to speak, especially in anxiety-provoking situations, I can't. I mean that literally *I can't*. It would be easier on me if I could just mutter a few words or lines, and have people move on to the next person, but there've been times when I can't do it. I've been embarassed more times than I can count, several times in front of my therapist, for ex when I used to be in group therapy, becuase I literally could not speak. I literally could not make the words come out of my mouth. I also, within the last three years or so, have developed a stuttering problem. My wife noticed it first...not me. After one my kids activities, she asked me, "what the **** is going on with you, are you OK? You're stuttering, really badly, it was noticeable...."

Mostly it seems to be a defense mechanism that works. I shut myself off from the world. That's how it started with me. I totally, completely shut down. I block everyone out. I don't talk very much to begin with. And then, it's sort of like "if you don't use it you lose it".

I don't know how to explain it any better than this. Either you get it, or more than likely, if you don't have it, you don't get it.


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## dshalo (Apr 13, 2011)

I don't speak to anyone longer than a few seconds other than my mom and sister. I remember doing group work in college and somebody telling me with an attitude that we were allowed to talk. I remember a group of ladies saying I was depressed because I don't talk to anyone. Maybe its the other way, idk. I think I get picked on alot and am disliked because of my lack of speech. I'm posting on forums and hoping that will get me started to talking.


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## kesker (Mar 29, 2011)

Yes. I recently ran across this on another SA website and I said, "Oh great, another label to worry about. But I definitely behave that way, especially with people in authority, successful people, teachers in the past, anyone I deem dangerous (which is a huge segment of the population). Not only does it get me self talking about how stupid I am, it also seems not to be tolerated well by others. I had teachers who ridiculed me in front of the class because "the cat had my tongue." I turn the anger and frustration about it inward which only adds fuel to the fire. Thank God I don't have Selective Online Thread Reply Mutism.


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## lyssado707 (Oct 29, 2004)

I know i had this as a kid. I literally would almost never speak at school. My friend introduced me to other kids sayin "she don't talk." SM sucks. I still have it to some degree & fit all the criteria. In social situations, the urge not to talk just comes on so strong. I dunno how to describe it. It's like this invisible pressure, like being paralyzed by fear. I sometimes cough to remind myself my voice is still there lol


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## Gurkavitch (Apr 15, 2011)

I had selective mutism as a child as well however it was mainly because I didn't see the point in talking and I just plain ol' didn't want to talk. If someone asked me a question I'd either shake my head, nod or shrug even if I knew the answer. My parental figures made me learn sign language because of it. People always thought I was literally mute, even most of my family thought so. The only time I did speak were through little plays I would make up or home movies I would make. Other than that, I would just observe others and listen when in a conversation, I was never really nervous though. However, I don't remember much of my childhood since I spent more time observing the lives of others that I barely payed any attention to mine. In any case, SM is usually a type of "side effect" to SA. It's really interesting though, I mean, it's crazy how much SA can really disrupt a person. They're still normal but just with a slight defect that really just brings in more defects because of it. What a world.


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## Dovakhiin (Oct 18, 2013)

seeker28 said:


> Recently I came across a disorder called Selective mutism. Here is the description from wikipedia: I am a bit confused whether or not I fit this diagnosis. In some of my classes (especially the bigger ones) I remain completely silent almost every time. I think I haven't participated in my economics class for the last two months. However, this is not because i am physically unable to speak or because I don't know what to say but because I figured that remaining silent causes much less anxiety. When asked a question or forced to speak (e.g when having to give a presentation) I can speak relatively fine, however I tend to keep the answers as short as possible and afterwards I go back to the "silent mode".
> 
> I suppose this can be classified as a symptom of "severe social anxiety" rather than SM but I wonder where the boundaries between these two disorders lie.
> 
> Does anyone else here avoid speaking completely in certain setting/situations as a result of their SA?


I have the same problem, but selective mutism is extreme social anxiety disorders, they aren't seperate! I speak when asked too but only one word answers! And pretty much quiet and feel nervous at school all the time!


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## Zack (Apr 20, 2013)

Sounds like me 100%.


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## Ntln (Apr 27, 2012)

Sounds a lot like me as well.


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## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

I used to have SM when I was younger, and I do believe there is a difference between SM and severe social anxiety. When I was in 8th and 9th grade, I believe I had SM, and then after that, I would say I had severe, debilitating social anxiety. The key difference is actual _mutism_. People with severe social anxiety can still say something when questions are directed at them. Children with SM for example, will say absolutely nothing when directed with a question, and then the teachers usually have to seek out the parents because the child simply will not respond at all.

When I had SM, I physically couldn't open my mouth to speak even though I wanted to. I _had_ something that I would have said, but I just couldn't open my mouth, it felt like it was sewed shut. And I also had those other symptoms of impossible eye contact, awkward movements, etc. People would try to talk to me, and make direct questions at me, and I couldn't respond, I would just stare at them. In a 8th, 9th grader, people definitely couldn't understand why someone my age would just stare at them when given a direct question. I could only nod or shake my head in response, or just plain ignore them and not look at them. Or shrug my shoulders. I remember being called to the counselor's office and they tried to talk to me, and I don't remember saying one word to them. Nothing.

Further on in HS, I started getting through it, and started being able to respond with yes and no responses. I still couldn't do much. If a question was posed from a teacher, I would just answer "I don't know" even if I did, because it was the shortest answer I could give. I gradually was able to speak more throughout the years, even though my SA was excruciating.

SM and SAD are certainly in the same ballpark and related. But there is a difference when it comes to mutism, because mutism is straight-up impossibility to speak in a certain situation. I got picked on so much about it, because the kids found it fun to taunt me and see me not have any response. I believe it was during that time period that I started developing my severe anger issues, because I just remember having this fuming anger within me that I just couldn't express, because I couldn't open my mouth to defend myself. I remember I had to hold my hand down because it was curled into a fist and the only way I could defend myself was physically. I still have really bad internal anger issues.


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## wraith1407 (Nov 4, 2013)

I was selectively mute when I was a kid, got to highschool and it started to change as I learnt other ways to cope.
From being mute to both other kids and teachers they would be nasty and make me cry or some times wet myself. Humiliation and lack of care from people of all ages defiantly had an impact. 
I'm pretty sure those experiences were what made the SA flourish. I have a massive problem with trust and believe the agenda of most people is to find and exploit your weakness. 
So yeah, my mutism was probably the first stage


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## minimized (Nov 17, 2007)

SM is a ***** and a half. I wish I just "grew out of it" like everyone else seems to have done.


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## milo001 (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm selective mute from kindergarten until about standard 3. Selective mute kids wouldn't talk at all in the class or when they are in the public but they are ok when they are talking with their parents or close family members. If you have talk to others in the class or public place then you are not selective mute. Everything is so scary to me that makes me can't uttered a single word. Like If I even said a single words something scary will happen to me. I can nods and gestures though. I have seen another student that is selective mute when I'm in secondary school. She's younger than me two years so I'm didn't know how she is in class but she is always alone and doesn't even speak a words to anyone at all during recess time. I know that she is like me years ago.


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## Samtrix (Aug 22, 2011)

http://psychology.clas.asu.edu/files/pina selective mutism.pdf
Children with SM do not have significantly higher levels of anxiety than children with SA, but there are "...additional behavioral factors involved in selective mutism."

The difference, as others have pointed out, is _wanting_ to speak, but you are unable to. With SA you can still talk to people when you need to, even though you're sweating, blushing, heart is racing, etc. or you might not want to talk to anyone.
Over 90% of people with SM have SA, but not everyone with SA has SM. http://www.selectivemutismcenter.org/aboutus/WhatisSelectiveMutism


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## Lain (Oct 5, 2011)

I had SM for, at least, the first 4-5 years of school. I remember kids saying hi to me but I didn't say anything back. I could only nod or shake my head for yes/no. I tried to communicate using hand gestures. I talked to the one friend that I had by writing notes because I couldn't speak at all. Then I gradually started to speak a little more at school. but only just a little.
It kind of still feels like I have it though... even online.


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