# Should shy/quiet people have rights against discrimination?



## nemesis1 (Dec 21, 2009)

So does anyone else here feel as a shy/quiet person you kinda know what its like for other minorities who get discrimated against?

So it would seem to me that quiet/shy people get persecuted in society yet it never gets mentioned. Any other minority whether its ethnic, religious, disabled......etc, these minorities all have rights against discrimination, so why dont quiet people?

For instance, lots of job vacancies state things like 'must have an outgoing personality'. Now if there was a job vacancy that stated something like 'must be white ethnic group' or 'must not be overweight' then the pc brigade would be going crazy over that. But its perfectly ok to say 'we dont want shy people'?

I know from my own experiences and from reading the posts on here that in society it seems that its perfectly acceptable to point out quiet peoples flaws in public, and to use those flaws to persecute/discriminate against. i.e. not giving someone a job, or not wanting to date someone, not wanting to be friends with someone - all for simply being 'too quiet'. Yet if someone was too overweight for instance, its not acceptable to use that as an excuse!?

Shy/quiet people are the most rejected, ignored and overlooked minority in society, we need rights!

Anyone else agree?


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

Not really. If sociableness is required to do the job its a fair requirement.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

It's a waste of resources to not employ people (of whatever group) on the basis of certain traits if they can do the job with reasonable or no accommodations. I know reasonable is subjective but that's a different issue.


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## CeilingStarer (Dec 29, 2009)

I agree. I mean certainly there are jobs that require good social skills, as someone said, but I feel that we are at a significant disadvantage in every area of life.


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## Propaganda (Oct 26, 2010)

Do you think restaurants want a shy/quite personal to wait tables? Do you think a phone company would want a person with social anxiety to be a salesperson who interacts with dozens of customers a day? Nope, not at all, that's why they have several personality tests, three interviews, training, and a probation period... all to weed out the nonconformists and such.

Well, I waited tables for years and sold phones for the largest cell phone company in US for a few years, needless to say, I lied, lied, and lied some more, all they way. If I did not lie on those personality tests/check points I would never NEVER get a job anywhere like those type places.

My point is to agree, yes, the introverts/shy/quite types are discriminated against.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

I understand the frustration you probably feel, first with your limitations socially (I have my own) and second with the "allowances" other groups seem to get. I see my frustration with those things as something I need to deal with, though.

Edit: Wanted to clarify that by "allowances" I mean consideration and maybe respect for the struggle a disabled person faces, for example. I don't begrudge a disabled person that consideration, but since my struggle is looked at differently, I do feel a bit, slighted? I see that as my issue to deal with because it's impractical to look to anyone else, in my opinion, and for personal reasons having to do with me trying to avoid defining myself as a victim.


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## David777 (Feb 6, 2011)

nemesis1 said:


> So does anyone else here feel as a shy/quiet person you kinda know what its like for other minorities who get discrimated against?
> 
> So it would seem to me that quiet/shy people get persecuted in society yet it never gets mentioned. Any other minority whether its ethnic, religious, disabled......etc, these minorities all have rights against discrimination, so why dont quiet people?
> 
> ...


You make some very good points, and I too would like to see some kind of law like that.

However, I doubt it would make much of a difference.

I mean, there are already laws about discriminating against appearance, but it still happens all the time.
It's common knowledge that over-weight people (me included) have a harder time finding a job.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

The distinction between qualification and discrimination can be a spurious one.
I was discussing it some with people from Uni, and the closest we could come was, that 'qualifications' are what you can expect people to either have or be able to get, while 'discrimination' is setting expectations for things that people can't help or are considered purely a private matter.
There are things considered 'qualifications' that people can't do much about though.

Certainly with things like anxiety, society places the responsibility of being included on the person with anxiety and not the environment, and it therefore becomes something they can require without much thought about what that does to the people being excluded.


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## Charizard (Feb 16, 2011)

nemesis1 said:


> For instance, lots of job vacancies state things like 'must have an outgoing personality'. Now if there was a job vacancy that stated something like 'must be white ethnic group' or 'must not be overweight' then the pc brigade would be going crazy over that. But its perfectly ok to say 'we dont want shy people'?


Actually, there are plenty of jobs with physical requirements. Being below the threshold of what the job requires and not getting the job isn't discrimination, it's for your good and the good of the company.

I think that if it's a service industry job, then it's perfectly acceptable to have a requirement of being personable. Now, if the job is you in a back room sorting files, then you could probably call it discrimination to hire based on outgoing-ness.


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## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

No.


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## OtherGlove (Dec 28, 2010)

Special treatment isn't going to help anyone here


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

At least here, many with conditions such as social anxiety disorder would be included under the disability category: "The Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) defines a disabled person as someone who has a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities."


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Interesting idea. But we are not a minority. What's going to be the criteria for judging a shy person when a shy person isn't shy all the time. What ud end up with wud be saying 'don't discriminate against my assumption about who I am or other peoples guesses about me or what I interpreted other peoples reactions to me to mean.'maybe u r a shy guy or person but you'd have trouble proving even that yet alone discrimination on such grounds. And, after all, ninety nine percent of the time, it's the person who is shy who sees it as being a flaw. 

I'm shy. And I was an actor for a bit. Shyness is not automatically a barrier to getting jobs.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

joinmartin said:


> Interesting idea. But we are not a minority. What's going to be the criteria for judging a shy person when a shy person isn't shy all the time.


Well, aren't practicalities beside the point of his question about whether or not it is a problem? I'm certainly not socially anxious all the time yet they have criteria to define me as part of the SAD category. In addition, most of such categories really delineate parts of spectrums that blend into the rest of the population.



joinmartin said:


> And, after all, ninety nine percent of the time, it's the person who is shy who sees it as being a flaw.


Is that figure published anywhere? And why is it you think they see it as being a flaw? Because it brings them wealth and popularity?



joinmartin said:


> I'm shy. And I was an actor for a bit. Shyness is not automatically a barrier to getting jobs.


Again, that's beside the point. You can be severely disabled and get a job. Doesn't mean you don't face more barriers than others that need to be addressed.


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## WTFnooooo (Mar 27, 2010)

Ironically, the people in favor of these "hate crime" laws are the people who constantly complain about there not being enough "equality" in this world.

A private business is private property, property of its owner(s). Who worked to obtain it, manages it by taking the highest risk, and should be able to hire whoever they want. Having govt come intervene is an injustice to the property's owner(s).
The equivalent of this injustice would be to have govt force you into inviting people into your house that you do not want to invite. Or the inverted version, to force you to work for someone you do not want to work for.


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## lyssado707 (Oct 29, 2004)

Well, i think it's definately an issue that needs to be discussed and can't just be ignored. Each business probably needs to determine whether having an extravert is absolutely essential to job function or if it's just their _preference. _


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

lyssado707 said:


> Each business probably needs to determine whether having an extravert is absolutely essential to job function or if it's just their _preference. _


Yes, but that's not going to happen out of thin air. Since there's already legislation in place, right or wrong, whether people want it or not, for various groups, I think it would be more to the point of the topic to explore whether such traits as personality type should or could be encompassed by it.


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## slightlyawkward (Feb 16, 2011)

I recently got fired from a server job. The reason? Being too shy. Yeah, it sucks, but I guess it makes sense because servers are generally required to have a certain personality type (outgoing and bubbly) and that's not me.


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

slightlyawkward said:


> I recently got fired from a server job. The reason? Being too shy. Yeah, it sucks, but I guess it makes sense because servers are generally required to have a certain personality type (outgoing and bubbly) and that's not me.


Did you ever ask yourself the question Do I Want To Be A Waitress?

When I was your age I took a job as a waiter because my insane mother pushed me into it. Looking back they did me a favor when they fired me. After 3 days.


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## Futures (Aug 27, 2005)

Being shy is why I lost my last job.

Surprisingly, I was the closest thing to a model employee that my team had. I always showed up on time, rarely took days off, always completed my tasks, etc. And on top of that, I had more education and seniority than everyone except for my manager.

Yet when the company needed to lay off 3 people, they decided to play a game of choosing favorites. Naturally, being an introvert, I was at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The fact that I out performed all my coworkers wasn't even taken into consideration.

It sucks and yes, it is discriminatory. But what can you do? Even if there was a law against it, it's one of those things that's darn near impossible to prove or enforce.


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## WTFnooooo (Mar 27, 2010)

Futures said:


> Being shy is why I lost my last job.
> 
> Surprisingly, I was the closest thing to a model employee that my team had. I always showed up on time, rarely took days off, always completed my tasks, etc. And on top of that, I had more education and seniority than everyone except for my manager.
> 
> ...


You are better off not working there.
A law that would have kept you there would mean that you would be helping a company that discriminates.
People who do not discriminate are able to keep hard working people, those who discriminate are biased and might push them away. Who has more chances of making better profits? The people who do not discriminate.

No need for laws, the market takes cares of itself without anyone being coerced into anything. Behavior is corrected en masse.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

uh no...

I don't really think the "discrimination" that shy people face is anything like the actual discrimination that people face based on race, sexual orientation, etc. Nobody has ever been killed just for being shy.

Introversion isn't a disability. It's a personality trait. In many cases it can be counter-acted by learning new behaviors.

I've had issues at work b/c of my shyness too. A few years ago I got a pretty poor review in which my boss told me that I need to be more outgoing and personable with my customers...but I don't really consider it discrimination. I mean, I work in customer service, so it's to be expected that they want bubbly, smiley, outspoken people to make the customers feel cared for. Kinda like how they want tall people to play basketball...it's not discrimination against short people..it's just that height is an advantage in that sport.


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## OtherGlove (Dec 28, 2010)

au Lait said:


> Kinda like how they want tall people to play basketball...it's not discrimination against short people..it's just that height is an advantage in that sport.


Now, just what in the hell is that supposed to mean? The injustice.


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## Iakel (Feb 17, 2011)

Shy people can't protest.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

No, I don't agree at all. Why should an employer be forced to hire a person who will very likely work much less effectively work in a team, or have poorer communications skills, or willingness to communicate? Further, laws like that would act as a crutch, making it ok for people to not try to deal with their SA.


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## sarafinanickelbocker (May 16, 2010)

Eh, sometimes. I think employers need to realize they are missing out on some great employees sometimes even though we may not be charismatic. I'm not sure about having our own set of written rights and all, but I see where you're coming from.

I hate that one rule of job interviews about not being nervous. Yeah right! Doesn't mean I'm not a good employee.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Us males (in particular) should. Since it's deemed a weakness and stigma by society and females.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

au Lait said:


> I don't really think the "discrimination" that shy people face is anything like the actual discrimination that people face based on race, sexual orientation, etc. Nobody has ever been killed just for being shy.


So, the threat of being killed or something similarly as serious has to be there for it to be considered real discrimination? Also, how do you know there isn't a real problem here - have you found any studies? Someone could have made the same argument about women entering the workforce a few decades ago, saying it's not real discrimination because they're not being killed or something. I'm confused by this argument.



au Lait said:


> Introversion isn't a disability. It's a personality trait. In many cases it can be counter-acted by learning new behaviors.


Since both introversion and disability can be counteracted to a degree, I don't see how that can be relevant to the question of whether there is a problem with unfair, unnecessary discrimination, especially since most discrimination occurs against groups that are _not_ in the disabled category.

Unfair discrimination is occurring if, say, you get fired and can fulfill the job role despite the introversion or shyness (or whatever other traits). Fair discrimination is when you cannot fulfill it despite reasonable accommodations.


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## nemesis1 (Dec 21, 2009)

lonelyjew said:


> No, I don't agree at all. Why should an employer be forced to hire a person who will very likely work much less effectively work in a team, or have poorer communications skills, or willingness to communicate? Further, laws like that would act as a crutch, making it ok for people to not try to deal with their SA.


Well lots of employers are 'forced' into employing disabled people under the disability discrimination act, and clearly disabled people are also very likely to work less effectively than able bodied people, yet employers are still obliged to employ disabled people.


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## Iced (Feb 7, 2011)

I would imagine employees would like shy people since they wouldn't talk and do their job and go home. With that said, such employee would always stay at the bottom. To get to the top its usually who you know, not what you can do.


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## laura024 (Aug 11, 2006)

It might suck, but an outgoing personality is viewed as favorable for many things in life, including careers. And it makes sense why. But that doesn't mean life is over for people who are shy or that they will never be accepted anywhere. You're shy? Well you're not alone. Shyness is just one trait that tends to hold a negative stigma in society. An outgoing person may also have a certain skin color, religion, or handicap, etc. and be looked down upon for it. Just because they have a likable personality doesn't mean they don't suffer in other ways.


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## Blujay13 (Nov 24, 2010)

You make some very good points. I agree.


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## Burzum (Feb 25, 2011)

To hell with the world.


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

Burzum said:


> To hell with the world.


amen


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## InfiniteBlaze (Jan 27, 2011)

Futures said:


> Being shy is why I lost my last job.
> 
> Surprisingly, I was the closest thing to a model employee that my team had. I always showed up on time, rarely took days off, always completed my tasks, etc. And on top of that, I had more education and seniority than everyone except for my manager.
> 
> ...


Remind me to never go anywhere near where you worked.


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## jennybean (Dec 15, 2011)

Not hiring someone because he or she is quiet is definitely discrimination and should be considered as such. I have dealt with extreme social anxiety my entire life, and I definitely believe my job is discriminating against me because of it. They said I would not receive a bonus (thought it's probably like 20 cents??) because they felt I was not interacting enough with the customers, even though I feel I've improved quite a bit since I've been here and I DO ask people if they need help, etc. I feel they are doing this because they just don't like my personality even though I am a really nice person, just quiet/shy.. and because I have a bit more trouble interacting with other associates (though I'm ok I think with interaction relating to the job, just not entirely with general socializing). I also feel they take advantage of me because of my passiveness.

It sucks.


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## artynerd (Sep 3, 2011)

No, I dont think this is good to be used as discrimination. Some company wants people who have good communication skills. You cant sue a company because you are shy, quiet. If you dont meet their requirement. Then they cant hire you.

And they may have a reason for hiring outgoing people, its probably because they have to talk to clients. 

Same with, you cant sue a model agency for not hiring you to be a model, if you have no model material. But then....... could you??? :/

I wouldnt want to hire anyone if they complain about their shyness, being shy is not that bad, if you are hard working, or have other outstanding quality. You just have to sell yourself.

Edit ---

The reason why discriminating against race, gender and age, religion is wrong is because these are personal judgement that does not go against the job role. You can be a cleaner and be muslim and female for example, or anything. Being a cleaner can be anybody and still be able to do the job right


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