# SA isn't a mental illness!



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I'm so tired of hearing that social anxiety is a mental illness! That's putting extreme shyness on the same level as retardation! Come on guys, let's really focus here and put this whole thing into perspective!

Social anxiety is a form of shyness. Whether you want to call it extreme or not it is still a form of shyness! Now, tell me this, is the typically "normal" shyness described to be a mental illness? No, and anyone who says otherwise seriously needs to rethink what shyness is.

So, what is shyness? Sometimes the term "shy" can be described towards behavioral characteristics of animals, not just humans. For instance, we describe leopards as shy creatures among other species. We hardly say that a leopard is shy because it has a mental illness! If we said that we'd be considered, well, "mentally ill' perhaps? Hm, get my drift? Shyness is just too vague a term to label someone entirely. We, just like leopards, are not mentally ill!

So, if SA isn't a mental illeness, what is it? It's just shyness, that's it! They call it a disability, you call it a debilitating and extreme condition. When simplified, it's just plain ol' shyness, period. We all know children to be shy who later grow up to be outgoing. What does this mean? This means that shyness is a self-fulfilling prophecy that can be unlearned. In other words, you can be shy (SA) and later not be shy (SA). It's not impossible, even for someone with SA. In fact, EVERYONE is shy and capable of developing SA. On the other hand, those with SA are capable of developing a different self-fufilling prophecy. Understand, I too used to have SA but I'm not writing this to talk about me.

So, why oh why are you so shy that you are dibilitated? Well, for starters, it's because you believe you are mentally sick. You think because you have SA you are different. Well, no, actaully you aren't different from anyone else. In fact, I guarantee you that the most social and seemingly outgoing indivisual you can ever contemplate is very simular to you. I say this because shyness is a learned and a self-taught personality. On the opposite spectrum, being outgoing is also a learned and self-taught personality. In fact, you can even say that shyness and being outgoing is a characteristic of many human traits. This possibly may mean that you are (gasp) NORMAL. This means that you are naturally outgoing AND shy, and not one of the other. You are human with a wide variety of emotions, not just one.

It's not important that you develope yourself to be "outgoing". Rather, it's FAR more important you UNDERSTAND you aren't disabled by what you feel. In fact, call me crazy, but what you feel can be counteracted. Your feelings can be counteracted into positve emotions. This may sound really complicated but it's not. It's even simpler then convincing yourself that your sick.



Example of a negative emotional chain-reaction comprised by a negative mindset (SA):



Ridicule->Self-conscious awareness->Beleiving you are what you were rediculed->lowered self-esteem->(repeat)X(repeat)X(repeat)X(repeat) = SA (very low esteem)


Notice how there are no positive counteractions in this last example. Very low esteem manifests physical and mental disfuntion (ie, high blood pressure, depression, anxiety, hopelessness, etc). Overtime they become overbearing without positive counteractions. However, like manifesting negative emotions, positive thinking brings about positive and energizing emotions such as motivation, hope, inspiration, etc.






Example of a positive emotional chain-reaction comprised by positive counteractions (no SA):



Ridicule->Self-conscious awareness->Realizing your positive attributes(counteraction)->unaffect self-esteem = no SA (positive esteem)

Ridicule->Self-conscious awareness->Realzing the ignorance of such an observation and it's falseness(counteraction)->unaffected self-esteem = no SA (positive esteem)

Anxiety->Self-conscious awareness->Realizing it's normal to feel anxiety rather than thinking it's unatural(counteraction)->No self-deflating believes->unaffected self-esteem = no SA (positive esteem)

Environmental anxiety->Self-conscious awareness->Realizing that you feel anxiety not because you have a disorder but rather because it's an anxiety-prone situation(counteraction)->You are normal->unaffected self-esteem = no SA (postive esteem)





Developing yourself to be more open about your emotions and how you feel will also gretly benefit you int he long run. For example, wheny ou feel anxious or self-conscious state that you feel that way and talk about it. It may at first seem very personal and uncomfortable but after it's over you will feel much better.



Blah, I don't know. I can go on forever.



The point is, SA isn't a mental disability. Shyness is a learned behavior. Negative self-consciousness is a learned behavior. On the other hand, positive self-conciousness is also a learned behavior and like food you need to feed yourself a better psyche. Wihtout food you starve. By abandoning your willingness to overcome you are abandoning your chances of learning ways to love yourself. Vaguely, challenges are what helps us discover who we truely are.

Nap time.


----------



## rachelynn (Sep 12, 2008)

Yeah, I don't think of SAD as a mental illness, I never have and don't think I ever will. I know it can disable a person though, and in that way it can be considered a "mental disorder"...Most people always think it is just shyness...until finding out about social anxiety. So it is just shyness, but it's an extreme form.


----------



## huh (Mar 19, 2007)

*Thinks happy thoughts*


----------



## Cypress (Dec 17, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> I'm so tired of hearing that social anxiety is a mental illness! That's putting extreme shyness on the same level as retardation!


I stopped reading right there. Having a mental illness does not mean somebody is mentally retarded.


----------



## rachelynn (Sep 12, 2008)

Cypress said:


> I stopped reading right there. Having a mental illness does not mean somebody is mentally retarded.


Ohh yeah that is so true.


----------



## Paul (Sep 26, 2005)

A mental disorder is basically any way of thinking which is counterproductive to living in the society we have. Social anxiety is certainly that. Less problematic than some disorders, and different from insanity, of course.


----------



## LostInApathy (Feb 4, 2009)

Cypress said:


> I stopped reading right there. Having a mental illness does not mean somebody is mentally retarded.


Ditto


----------



## Little Willow (Oct 26, 2008)

LostInApathy said:


> Ditto


Double ditto


----------



## Trigun472 (Jan 6, 2009)

Cypress said:


> I stopped reading right there. Having a mental illness does not mean somebody is mentally retarded.


+


----------



## Medicine Wheel (Nov 17, 2008)

Cypress said:


> I stopped reading right there. Having a mental illness does not mean somebody is mentally retarded.


^^^^^^^^


----------



## nobodyuknow (Aug 31, 2008)

I think I see what you are trying to say, but it just came across as a little off-putting. I think labels are bad, (I really, really have a hard time talking about stuff like this to people because of the label) but at the same time there _are_ certain characteristics people with this problem share.

I think you didn't take many things into account. How do you explain children with Selective Mutism? What if you have been like this your whole life? When I was a kid, I didn't think I was mentally ill, yet I was still very, very shy, and anxious. In fact, I knew nothing about labels like that, so I couldn't apply them to myself. Yet I still felt the same. So why was I like that? (Sorry to use myself as an example, I just genuinely want to know.)

If you are going to get into a Nature vs. Nurture debate, I think it is both. Yes, there are ways of coping -- you can change things in your environment, you can change the way you think to get out of that mindtrap -- but it is genetic as well. Look up identical twin studies and Social Anxiety.

There is also the problem with depression and other co-morbid disorders (besides anxiety). Social anxiety is definitely a disorder because it can really screw up your life. Say you were good at school when you were younger, but every time you try to go to school it is too brutally terrifying, and you get really depressed and due to your depression you can't concentrate, and that's even if you aren't too anxious to attend. It's not that you aren't trying. What if you are too scared to look for a job? Or you are too scared to live on your own so you still live in your parents basement? I could go on... and even when you take steps to do things the awful, anxious feeling doesn't instantly go away.

People always told me I was shy my whole life. It frustrated me to no end because I didn't feel shy around the people I knew really well. Yet, when I tried to speak (in school, etc.) it would be a big joke to some people because I was so quiet most of the time, or I would be nervous and my voice would come out really soft and I would be told to speak up. As a result, I ended up being even more anxious over time. I never knew how to cope because it felt like everything I did turned out wrong. Also, as a child, it is difficult to explain how you feel. So even the label 'shy' can be damaging. (To this day, I HATE being called shy!)

(I just thought of this quote:
"All generalizations are false, including this one." --Mark Twain)

The part I found most frustrating when reading your post was that you said shyness was a learned behaviour because I've never wanted to be shy and it is a source of frustration. There are so many instances when I took crap from people simply because I would freeze up and my mind would go blank. It's not like I wasn't trying to change things.

I just thought you made it sound oversimplified; change is hard. It's not like somebody with this problem can wake up tomorrow and have a whole new mindset. It's an ongoing battle.


----------



## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

yeah, you have a point, a little too enthusiastic for my taste, but most of what you say makes sense

It all comes down to stigma. People view themselves however they want to view themselves. As strange as it seems, if you tell someone who believes they have SA that they don't have SA, that they are perfectly normal, that person will probably react with anger, and rightfully so, because you are disturbing their sense of identity, you are telling them they are "fine" when they don't feel "fine". They have the right to feel like they are not fine.

Identity trumps everything else. I realize you have found something that works, which is excellent, but you can't change people with words on a screen.


----------



## Fairyxo (Jan 28, 2009)

Cypress said:


> I stopped reading right there. Having a mental illness does not mean somebody is mentally retarded.


Exactly.
Social Anxiety Disorder IS a mental illness whether you like it or not.


----------



## jenkydora (Nov 11, 2003)

I did hear today on Oprah, from the skype people on Eckhart Tolle's 'New Earth' that anxiety is a selfish energy.
Can't elaborate alot on it, though it does make little sense, if you are to do a presentation, that audience is wanting something from the presentation, it makes no sense to be so anxious they get very little from it, hence the presenter is offering something to the audiencea and if they dont recieve because of our anxiety it can be deemed as selfish energy.

Cant say I agree or disagree I'm too tired from being anxiously selfish.


----------



## StrangeSpirit (May 10, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> I'm so tired of hearing that social anxiety is a mental illness! That's putting extreme shyness on the same level as retardation!


This statement alone shows you don't understand the concept of a mental illness.

I could pick apart your post in detail but it's 3:30 am and I'm going to bed.

Try to remember not every one's the same. Mental illness is a very complicated thing that's not fully understood and can affect different people in different ways. Your theory may be true to you, but that doesn't mean it's true for every one else.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Of corse SA isn't mental retardation. I'm sorry I used that example.


Pick apart my post. It wasn't meant to harm anyone. SA isn't a mental illness. Let me rephrase that, SA isn't a condition that you can not do anything about. Oh, I'm sorry, you KNEW that already. Oh, my bad. I see it's too late to convince you otherwise.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I can see where you guys become confused with mental illness. That was my fualt for listing that. Basically, I was trying to say that you are all normal and capable of w/e it is you want. That's my bad, my bad. Shame on me.


----------



## Fairyxo (Jan 28, 2009)

Definition of a mental illness:



> A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture.


My SA does cause me distress that "normal" people don't have, so yes, I do have a mental illness.


----------



## knightbird123 (Jan 27, 2009)

mentally retarted NO 
socially retarted YES

Both suck, difference is one knows it sucks while the other one doesn't even know what sucks means


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

mental illness or not I just need some self confidence and self esteem.


----------



## dontcare (Oct 6, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> Of corse SA isn't mental retardation. I'm sorry I used that example.


Well it's not mental retardation. I personally am thank God very smart, there's nothing wrong with my brain. And I have SA. So this can get offensive.


bwidger85 said:


> Pick apart my post. It wasn't meant to harm anyone. SA isn't a mental illness. Let me rephrase that, SA isn't a condition that you can not do anything about. Oh, I'm sorry, you KNEW that already. Oh, my bad. I see it's too late to convince you otherwise.


I did know that already. Which is why I'm working to overcome my SA. Why are you trying to convince me otherwise?



bwidger85 said:


> I can see where you guys become confused with mental illness. That was my fualt for listing that. Basically, I was trying to say that you are all normal and capable of w/e it is you want. That's my bad, my bad. Shame on me.


If you've been on this board long enough - and the counter says you've already been here a few years - you should understand what sort of posts do and don't inspire people; and which ones do and don't anger them. As soon as I read your post, I knew what sort of response you'd get. You're challenging years of psychological research, without providing sources or credentials. Of course they get mad. And then you sound resentful about it?

The majority of people here, myself included, firmly believe that SA can be overcome. _However, _we also believe that SA exists, and that it is very different from shyness. If I can only consider myself shy, I'll count myself cured.

This is Social Anxiety Support. It is intended for people with Social Anxiety. An announcement that Social Anxiety does not, in fact exist - when many of us have been diagnosed with it over and over again, by several professionals - will obviously not go over well.


----------



## Cypress (Dec 17, 2008)

dontcare said:


> Well it's not mental retardation. I personally am thank God very smart, there's nothing wrong with my brain. And I have SA. So this can get offensive.
> 
> I did know that already. Which is why I'm working to overcome my SA. Why are you trying to convince me otherwise?
> 
> ...


Nice post.


----------



## screwjack (Dec 19, 2008)

Many psychologist/psychiatrists with phds and years of experience would like to have a word with you. Being painfully shy is not the same as just being shy, it's like the difference between just being depressed and clinical depression when it starts having an effect on the quality of your life and you can't do anything about it, it is mental illness.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

knightbird123 said:


> mentally retarted NO
> socially retarted YES
> 
> Both suck, difference is one knows it sucks while the other one doesn't even know what sucks means


LOL at socially retarded. Very nice observation


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Opinion breeds ignorance, but science is the father of all knowledge," Hipporcates.


----------



## MissMay1977 (Oct 25, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> I'm so tired of hearing that social anxiety is a mental illness! That's putting extreme shyness on the same level as retardation! Come on guys, let's really focus here and put this whole thing into perspective!
> 
> Social anxiety is a form of shyness. Whether you want to call it extreme or not it is still a form of shyness! Now, tell me this, is the typically "normal" shyness described to be a mental illness? No, and anyone who says otherwise seriously needs to rethink what shyness is.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that people that suffer from a mental illness are retarded?


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I can see your points. Perhaps I should of taken into consieration my choice of words. It's good that you all understand SA can be worked on and improved. My statements about SA not being a diagnosed disorder seemingly are wrong, as I suppose it is, or is already proven to be. I probably should of just left that comment out. My mistake.

Obviously, positive thinking isn't the cure-all solution to SA, as most people make that distinction very clear. Being totally honest, I have a hard time describing my feelings toward such a subject. I've experienced SA in the past and still have my moments but the overall extremes have seemingly dissipated mainly due from a different thinking process as before, or that's my view on it anyways. I suppose this "different thinking" is my own personal reference to cognitive behavior. Blah.

I do want to help people not insult them. I'll take better consideration of that next go around.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

MissMay1977 said:


> Are you saying that people that suffer from a mental illness are retarded?


I didn't mean it that way. No, it was a bad example at an attempt to differentiate the two.


----------



## MissMay1977 (Oct 25, 2008)

ok cool.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

DISCLAIMER:

I am not saying people with SA are mentally handicapped. It was my intention to discribe how SA ISN'T a mental handicap.


----------



## MissMay1977 (Oct 25, 2008)

Ok I kind of feel like I should let this go- but I can't. Mental illness is not a mental hadicap. Handicap implies you are prevented from doing something. My mental illness has not prevented me from doing anything. In fact, I am more successful than a lot of people my age. 
I know that you are not trying to be offensive- so it is all good. But I just wanted to clarify that mental illness does not equal handicap.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

MissMay1977 said:


> Ok I kind of feel like I should let this go- but I can't.


I know exactly what you mean LOL. Your right, mental illness is not a handicap.


----------



## caithiggs (Jan 11, 2009)

Yeah, I'm with a lot of people here. This post was unnecessary.

First of all, the OP is completely disregarding what social anxiety actually is, completely disregarding what a--I think the term you were looking for--_disorder_ is, and also disregarding what shyness actually is.

I know shy people. I know people who suffer from SA. They are not the same thing at all. I am so sick of people claiming SA is just a term they use for shyness. This is not the case at all. I had a teacher last semester who said something to that affect in class and I nearly fell out of my chair.

I personally think shyness is just when people are quiet, and happy to think their thoughts to themselves. They don't feel discomfort in their shyness. They simply are not outgoing.

When you have social anxiety your mind is bombarded by fear and negative thoughts that are in fact debilitating, and can in fact prevent you from important stuff. What a disorder is, is anything that interferes with normal every day life, any mental issue that prevents you from living a happy normal life. Social anxiety is this form of disorder. You might not do well in school because you can't approach professors when something comes up. Instead of handing in your assignments you might allow yourself to fail out of classes and become depressed, rather than seek help. You may not go for a career option you really want because there are too many hurdles to cross that you are too afraid to jump. Many people become shut-ins, and don't actually move forward with their lives at all. It's definitely a problem.

If you can't ask your prom date out because you're shy, that's not a disorder, that's just a small thing. SA sufferers feel things much more extreme than that. It is not shyness. Though SA sufferers may also feel shy, they also feel terrified/petrified, which shy people don't. They just feel maybe slightly apprehensive about things they don't want to do. SA sufferers feel extremely apprehensive about everything they do want to do.


----------



## dontcare (Oct 6, 2008)

The OP apologized. Apology accepted. And everyone lived happily ever after, able to Fight their Social Phobia.


----------



## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

bwidger85 said:


> I'm so tired of hearing that social anxiety is a mental illness! That's putting extreme shyness on the same level as retardation!


*facepalm*


----------



## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

lol, this is an interesting thread actually, not just for the original post but for all the replies; gives a lot of insight into how people think

It's not just about stigma, it's also about self-stigmatization. The problem occurs because people receive a diagnosis, believe their diagnosis, but then are forced to deny it because their friends or family won't accept it. It's sad to think that in the 20th century, we still have this problem, but I don't see it coming to an end any time soon, especially when people who are mentally ill buy into all the stigma BS. Often times it's the ones who are mentally ill who discriminate against others who are mentally ill. I do it myself.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

kev said:


> lol, this is an interesting thread actually, not just for the original post but for all the replies; gives a lot of insight into how people think
> 
> It's not just about stigma, it's also about self-stigmatization. The problem occurs because people receive a diagnosis, believe their diagnosis, but then are forced to deny it because their friends or family won't accept it. It's sad to think that in the 20th century, we still have this problem, but I don't see it coming to an end any time soon, especially when people who are mentally ill buy into all the stigma BS. Often times it's the ones who are mentally ill who discriminate against others who are mentally ill. I do it myself.


I give up. We are all mentally ill. I am clearly stigmatized. That's a cool word btw.


----------



## caithiggs (Jan 11, 2009)

kev said:


> lol, this is an interesting thread actually, not just for the original post but for all the replies; gives a lot of insight into how people think
> 
> It's not just about stigma, it's also about self-stigmatization. The problem occurs because people receive a diagnosis, believe their diagnosis, but then are forced to deny it because their friends or family won't accept it. It's sad to think that in the 20th century, we still have this problem, but I don't see it coming to an end any time soon, especially when people who are mentally ill buy into all the stigma BS. Often times it's the ones who are mentally ill who discriminate against others who are mentally ill. I do it myself.


I agree, I think it is interesting as well.

BTW, it's the 21st, not 20th century 

Personally I had problems before I was ever diagnosed with having a social disorder. I believed my diagnoses because I diagnosed myself to the doctor! Haha, good times.

I think that mentally ill is the wrong term to use here. It does leave the whole thing grossly misunderstood. And leads people to say "SA is just normal shyness!" in order to get away from the idea that people are "ill". I think the idea of being mentally ill is a 20th century concept. In the 21st century we should think of it in a new light. And I think a lot of us do. But of course not everyone does just yet. That's alright, we're still in the first decade of the century.


----------



## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

bwidger85 said:


> I give up. We are all mentally ill. I am clearly stigmatized. That's a cool word btw.


Sorry, I'm not so good with words myself. You can decide for youself whether or not you are mentally ill. I was just trying to weather the storm, but I probably just made it worse.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, people have the right to view themselves as ill (even if other people don't believe it), but also people have the right to view themselves as healthy (even if other people believe they are ill). It goes both ways.

Sorry if I angered anyone. I'm not really sorry, I just don't want to be judged myself. Interesting how that works.


----------



## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

*Mental Illness:* Behavioral or psychological syndromes or patterns which cause painful symptoms and interference with normal functioning in important areas (relationships, school, work, etc.) 
http://www.mhacv.org/Glossary/mental_health_glossary.htm

S:  *mental illness*, mental disease, psychopathy (any disease of the mind; the psychological state of someone who has emotional or behavioral problems serious enough to require psychiatric intervention) 
WordNet home page http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=mental illness

A *mental disorder *or *mental illness *is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_illness

*mental illness*: A health condition that changes a person's thinking, feelings, or behavior (or all three) and that causes the person distress and difficulty in functioning.
http://science-education.nih.gov/supplements/nih5/Mental/other/glossary.htm

Eh, by definition, I'd say it is.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

It's cool Kev. I'm just being a sarcastic jerkface, as we all are sometimes.


Alright, I'll shut up about SA not being a mental illness. I suppose it is. Once again, my bad guys.

Still, even if I'm wrong or not, I still would say shyness is very simular to SA. Ok, maybe not exactly like the typical adverage shyness but it does work the same way. I only say extreme because it's obivious shy people do not experience the same intensity of physical symptoms, but who's to say that shy people don't think the same thoughts?

I am not trying to convince what anyone believes here. I am done with that. I would like to explain myself better though.

I believe very firmly that we all can overcome SA, or at least mange it down to levels of typical shyness. Perhaps one reason I do is because I feel, like shyness, we can do certain things to become, well, less shy. We can argue all day and say that we've tried this already but when it comes down to it are you still trying? If not, why have you stopped? Have you experienced moments, as I did, where you put yourself in an intense situation to find out you walked away without any instances of fear? If you have done so, why did you not feel that fear? Is it really that important that you continue to put yourself through these trials?

Perhaps I'm so stubburn in my belief of typical shyness being simular to SA, once again, because of what it took for me to get out of it, or at least think I have got out of it. It's really nuts how the mind works. Of corse, we don't just think happy thoughts to overcome SA. If you wanted a clear and reliable solution I would have to say you face your fears consistantly, and not because one day your going to stop having these fears but because one day you can say I am a very capable and seemingly NORMAL person with or without these feelings. It's the things you learna bout yourself that you carry around with you for the rest fo your life and if you learn that you aren't bound by your fears you'll learn your like everyone else who feels intense fear being normal or not. That in fact, you are no different from typical shy people but rather you THINK you are and your body responds to your thoughts. 

I am not lying to you for any reason, but it seemed not long after I stopped saying I had SA and lived my life no matter my feelings did I start to understand I could work towards my feelings about msyelf and ease them, which ironically put me in the position I am today thinking I have typical shyness. I did run into many frusterations where I thought it was hopeless and stupid to even try, but the more I discussed my feelings openly to the public and showed my true self the more I understood people are sympathetic. I think people who are so nasty as to judge you in such a negative manner as SAers think them to are very insecure people themselves and it's illogical, as some SAers' thoughts are, to take what they say seriously. That's like believing someone who knows nothing about you let alone themselves to give such judgement. Whereas, those indivisuals who show instances of empathy are people who are secure enough with themselves to be human, and showing forms of love is one of the most powerful things we can do. It takes more power to show love then to hate and judge.

Anyways, I have to go to class now, but there are other reasons why you may be running into constant dilemmas with your SA if your at elast trying to work on it. If your curious I could talk about it when I get back, if your not then oh well because I probably will anyways later on down the road somewhere or the other. One thing to take into consideration is your desire to want it bad enough even after constant frusteration, but I could talk about that forever and it is a controversial subject. Got to run...


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Currently I find myself in a predicament that is stressful for must people, not just those with SA. My instance is that of college full time, 28hrs+ of work dealing with people, and of corse the demands of study time I have to undertake. This is a stressful perdicament for anyone to go through I would think.

Before I started college I was very excited to go. My feelings of feeling insecure were not present. However, now that I have taken away my leisure time am I starting to become very stressed out. I'm beginning to really understand how much leisure time is import to gather my thoughts, etc. My schedule does not permit the amount of leisure time I had before going to college as, well, there really is but MAYBE a few hours in my day, of which I typically zone out and can't concentrate very well.

I say these things to put into light my past with SA. It's interesting to me that during that time (specifically high school) I was also unable to use my leisure time effectively. I did not understand what I do now about myself because I did not participate in much trials. I instead, put it on the backburner and let my insecurities and fears be untested. This, of corse, did not do much for my self-esteem nor my SA, of which I had tremendously. It wasn't untill I disconnected myself from many things and had lots of time to start messing around with my fears and really just focus on that CONSITANTLY that I started to pick up the good things about msyelf and others. Sounds simple? Well, of corse not. My bouts were very tramatic at times but that's not the focal point of what I'm trying to say. It took time and many pieces to really begin to make a bridge to recovery.

So, back to my present time in college. Once again, I find myself beginning to become a little overwelmed. Because I'm stressed and unable to use leisure time to gather my thoughts I am beginning to rediscover cases of which I am being too self-conscious. For instance, I am starting to focus on how people are thinking of me rather than paying attention in class, which isn't good. I think it has to do with my time to gather my thoughts and/or relieve myself of stress. Though these things are not as serious as panic attacks, they are some of the minor irritations I faced throughout my days in the past with SA, all of which are unnecessary.

Like someone with SA, I must not run from this situation, even though I am beginning to feel overwhelmed. I need to step back and focus on what I can do put a positive light on my current situation with everything and how I can incorporate things into it to make my days less stressful. For instance, becoming too self-conscious at school may lead to bigger problems later. Therefore, I strategize and incorporate forethought ideas into these instances in which I encounter these problems. Instead of going into a situation with no plan for success, I now have an idea (hope) of doing something that will lower or solve my problem, in this case, problematic self-consciousness.

Problems in my plans are frusterated because I really do not want to talk with people sometimes. I feel like I am under a lot of stress and the best solution is to gather my thoughts. Therefore, I typically do not participate in anyway recuding my self-consciousness. Solution: use leisure time to schedule instances where I can work on my self-consciousness. A good example would be arriving in class early to talk to the students who are there. I garentee this will ease my self-consciuosness.

Whether your at that point you believe that doing such a thing will ease your SA or not, it will when you gather the information needed to see it that way. To say it more clearly, it may be possible one problem many of SAers face, as I did, was I did not have the mindset to believe positive things could happen. I worked on these things by first challenging my fears and trying to pick apart the good that happens from doing so. I later discovered that my fears can be counteracted by actively participating with my environment, including those around me. When I participated more and more I discovered people really aren't that bad. I learned that I could ease extensive and overbearing negative self-consiousness by connecting with others. Thus, people became a stress relief and I began to seek such relief.

This is why it's important you face your fears. Practice like you would a video game, a bicycle, an art, and you'll become better at it. It's really that simple and I say that consciously knowing what I've stated may anger some of you, but what's so negative about me declaring SA can be overcome? Yes, I did use that radical word, "overcome". If not that, it can definitly be managed a whole lot better than total seclusion from others without being an overwhelming thing.


----------



## screwjack (Dec 19, 2008)

I think so much stigma being on the word "mental illness" is the real problem. I can't believe people still equate having a mental problem with being retarded or insane. I understand where you where coming from in this thread, but the facts don't bear you out and it's insulting to people that not only have SA but depression, bipolar, etc. It leads the idiots that say things like "bipolar etc dosen't exists it's just an excuse for lazy people who mess up to get a free pass" being justified, and oh how I hate those morons.

Having a disorder dosen't mean you get out of trying to get better. If you have diabetes you don't resign yourself to dying an early death and keep doing what you want, you start taking insulin if you need to you change your diet and lifestyle. Same thing with a mental disability.


----------



## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

bwidger85 said:


> Shyness is a learned behavior. Negative self-consciousness is a learned behavior. On the other hand, positive self-conciousness is also a learned behavior and like food you need to feed yourself a better psyche. Wihtout food you starve. By abandoning your willingness to overcome you are abandoning your chances of learning ways to love yourself. Vaguely, challenges are what helps us discover who we truely are.
> 
> Nap time.


This is somewhat true, but just one side of the argument (namely, the nature/nurture argument). CBT does work, but so does medication. Also, SA is a mental illness by definition; no arguing that.

I think you do need to consider the flip side of the coin. SA is often the result of underlying social problems -- in my case, it is social anhedonia and 'schizoid' problems. I have a lot of schizophrenia in my family, which if of course associated with dopamine dysfunction (an important neurotransmitter in sociability and highly implicated in SA by research).

There are some people with simple situational SA (public speaking, etc.) that can be easily explained and solved by psychology. However, there are plenty of people like me with all-encompassing SA which developed from what we can assume is an underlying dysfunction in dopamine function (based on current research) resulting in social anhedonia, for which medication is realistically the best way forward in treatment. For me it's not just shyness, but more like the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. I am not happy just CBTing myself and living with this.

I actually have an incredibly high self-esteem and consider myself better and more intelligent than most in many ways. Of course I am not the same as everyone, but my problems stemmed more from a lack of social drive. I want to be social, but just can't make it happen.

"Low Dopamine D2 Receptor Binding Potential in Social Phobia "
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/157/3/457

Of course you could argue that correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation, but it's interesting research nonetheless.


----------



## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

wow


----------



## stealyourface722 (Aug 31, 2008)

ya I think it is. I used to not have social anxiety and used to have all the friends I possibly wanted and went out so much. I was actually one of the most popular kids in school. pretty mcuh everyone knew me and liked me. or hated me. I went to school everyday and talked and talked. Then I did acid and instantly developed major depression and bad anxiety as well as distorted vision and perception. From that day on I avoided almost all contact with people. I went to school and walked around the school to avoid my friends. 
I mean I was predisposed genetically probably. but it's sad thinking about those days...... I mean so many girls liked me and thought i was cute and funny. But I was a liar and now I dont lie one bit. I might be better off now. I loved attention and got alot of it, I would get in fights and stuff and get suspended and be a class clown. lol now I am homeschooled.


----------



## Want2Bconfident (Sep 14, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> I'm so tired of hearing that social anxiety is a mental illness! That's putting extreme shyness on the same level as retardation! Come on guys, let's really focus here and put this whole thing into perspective!
> 
> Social anxiety is a form of shyness. Whether you want to call it extreme or not it is still a form of shyness! Now, tell me this, is the typically "normal" shyness described to be a mental illness? No, and anyone who says otherwise seriously needs to rethink what shyness is.
> 
> ...


bwidger, I totally agree with you, social anxiety is not an illness, its just learnt thinking patterns, very low self esteem, low self confidence, being self conscious, etc. 
A lot of people were bullied and got negative judgements, ridiculed, put downs, etc, which made them feel negative of themselves, have no self worth, no self esteem, believe people judge them negatively, etc - resulting in social anxiety. There is no illness there, its just what people have learnt and believed. 
Same with people who were abused as a child, they believe they are worthless and don't trust people to be nice to them, believing how they were treated was a reflection on how they are. Again there is no illness, its learnt.

If someone messes up and is humiliated in a certain social situation and they become anxious and scared in the situation, again its not an illness, its just what you believe.

I've made massive progress overcoming my problems in a very short time, and the problem is that people believe how they think is 100% real, but its totally flawed.

Bwidger, I agree with you. If people want to disagree then let them, they will never ever overcome these problems with that attitude. I am glad you can see the reality.


----------



## stealyourface722 (Aug 31, 2008)

Want2Bconfident said:


> bwidger, I totally agree with you, social anxiety is not an illness, its just learnt thinking patterns, very low self esteem, low self confidence, being self conscious, etc.
> A lot of people were bullied and got negative judgements, ridiculed, put downs, etc, which made them feel negative of themselves, have no self worth, no self esteem, believe people judge them negatively, etc - resulting in social anxiety. There is no illness there, its just what people have learnt and believed.
> Same with people who were abused as a child, they believe they are worthless and don't trust people to be nice to them, believing how they were treated was a reflection on how they are. Again there is no illness, its learnt.
> 
> ...


ya its just like an eating disorder, you think your fat but your not at all
its all distortions
but it has to do with the brain too


----------



## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

SA is an EMOTIONAL disorder, NOT a mental illness :wife.


----------



## screwjack (Dec 19, 2008)

millenniumman75 said:


> SA is an EMOTIONAL disorder, NOT a mental illness :wife.


Oops looking more into it i'd say you're right, I guess laymen don't tend to make distinctions like that.

I still take offense at the spirit of the OPs post. Just becuse you have something wrong with you dosen't mean you don't try to fix it. I'd also leave the diagnosis to a doctor.


----------



## Cypress (Dec 17, 2008)

millenniumman75 said:


> SA is an EMOTIONAL disorder, NOT a mental illness :wife.


What's the difference?


----------



## Want2Bconfident (Sep 14, 2008)

stealyourface722 said:


> ya its just like an eating disorder, you think your fat but your not at all
> its all distortions
> but it has to do with the brain too


Yeah that is very good similarity I think. My problem with SA was that in my teenage years I was laughed at and ridiculed and received negative judgements about how I looked and a speech impediment, it made me feel so negative about how I looked and my speech impediment, I believed I was so ugly and I talked like a retard and that when people saw me and heard me they would laugh at me or think really negative things. I got stuck in that way of thinking, believing it was so real. Its only in the last month or so I realised how wrong I was thinking, and this is some 15 years after I left high school. 
If many people tell you something, you tend to believe it and believe that is how people see you, but negative judgements are flawed. Negative judgements come from people who usually are mean, insensitive, nasty, immature, or are shallow or have problems themselves. 
What people do or say is all about how their mind works, not about us, we all have flaws, we all have imperfections, yet for someone to be nasty to us for our faults is just us being unluckily targeted.

I developed SA from years of put downs and ridicule, I just felt so ashamed, so self conscious, so unworthy, so ugly, so crap about myself, believing people always are judging me negatively. Was I mentally ill? No way ever! I just believed that how people were judging me was real and how everyone saw me, and that was wrong. We can all be judged negatively because we all have weakness or flaws or imperfections. The fact is that anyone who judges us on our weaknesses or flaws or imperfections are pathetic, worthless, crap people. You need to understand that some people will judge us negatively, but understand what sort of people they are - i.e worthless crap people and to be able to accept that those sort of people will judge us negatively but not be bothered. I could judge anyone I see tomorrow negatively if I wanted to, I could find fault with everyone I meet whether its how they look, their personality, how they talk, how intelligent they are, etc - but the fact is that if I am that sort of person who is looking critically at people then its me who has the problem - hence why people should never be bothered by what people think of us because anyone who judges us negatively is worthless, they are pathetic, stupid, immature, have no brain.

SA is not a mental illness, no way ever, its just learnt beliefs. That's not illness, that is not corrected by medication, hence why CBT is the recognised method to beat SA - which is a learning process to unlearn the negative thoughts. What illness in the world is corrected by unlearning the illness? None! SA is definitely not a mental illness.


----------



## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

*Yeah, agree with the NOT MENTAL ILLNESS. CBT is good, but reading about emotional maturity and emotional insight is a great way to build knowledge into your CBT. Once you know your emotional DNA you become strong in ways you didn't think were possible.*


----------



## Want2Bconfident (Sep 14, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> Currently I find myself in a predicament that is stressful for must people, not just those with SA. My instance is that of college full time, 28hrs+ of work dealing with people, and of corse the demands of study time I have to undertake. This is a stressful perdicament for anyone to go through I would think.
> 
> Before I started college I was very excited to go. My feelings of feeling insecure were not present. However, now that I have taken away my leisure time am I starting to become very stressed out. I'm beginning to really understand how much leisure time is import to gather my thoughts, etc. My schedule does not permit the amount of leisure time I had before going to college as, well, there really is but MAYBE a few hours in my day, of which I typically zone out and can't concentrate very well.
> 
> ...


As much as I agree that SA is not a mental illness, I don't believe practice is the answer. I do agree practice does help, but the real answer is changing the negative beliefs, those beliefs that make us feel unworthy and not good enough, the beliefs that make us feel ashamed and self conscious. I made massive massive progress when I changed the negative beliefs that made me feel so crap about myself and so self conscious.

But on the other hand I do understand that some people have SA because they have no confidence in their social skills and I agree in that case they need to practice them and prove to themselves that they do have social skills and can succeed in social situations and making friends, etc. But I really do feel SA is down to believing things are true and letting those beliefs control how you think when in reality those beliefs are totally flawed and need putting into reality. It can be a very hard thing to do because if you mind sees something is true and has loads of evidence to back it up that its true, then its really difficult to believe something totally different. But it can be done, I have done it.


----------



## stealyourface722 (Aug 31, 2008)

how do you know other people wernt made fun of just like you and ended up not having SP? youre probably pre-disposed genetically.


----------



## solasum (Nov 17, 2008)

I agree with the OP. And I still think that society is too quick to diagnose a "mental disorder." I have SA, but I would not say that I have SAD. I am who I am. If other people's SA really makes them that unhappy, then I'd support them in changing it. But still, I think self-acceptance does wonders.


----------



## Disintegrate (Jun 28, 2006)

Want2Bconfident said:


> Bwidger, I agree with you. If people want to disagree then let them, they will never ever overcome these problems with that attitude. I am glad you can see the reality.


Michael/Charlie, I hope that you're not starting up with that attitude again. Btw, weren't you all better 2 years ago???

You're entitled to your opinion, but people here really don't need to be put down because they don't believe as you do.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

screwjack, you have me all wrong. I never said anything about anyone not fixing their problems. If anything I am trying to give insight and not trying to tell you what to do. 

Also, is anyone mentally reatrded? Did I say SA is mental retardation? Where are you guys coming up with this? I never said SA is mental retardation. It was used as a way to differentiate the two. In other words, it was meant to say that they are NOTHING alike. I'm sorry I insulted you so deeply, but sounds like your bent to disaprove on everything I say.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

It almost sounds as if your insulted by me saying that you can come out of it. You may not think so but I know you can. That's really all I'm trying to say.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Disintegrate said:


> Michael/Charlie, I hope that you're not starting up with that attitude again. Btw, weren't you all better 2 years ago???
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion, but people here really don't need to be put down because they don't believe as you do.


Can you give me an example of how I put you down please?


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Disintegrate said:


> Michael/Charlie, I hope that you're not starting up with that attitude again. Btw, weren't you all better 2 years ago???
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion, but people here really don't need to be put down because they don't believe as you do.


I also don't see how this person is putting you down either.


----------



## StrangeSpirit (May 10, 2008)

Want2Bconfident said:


> bwidger, I totally agree with you, social anxiety is not an illness, its just learnt thinking patterns, very low self esteem, low self confidence, being self conscious, etc.
> A lot of people were bullied and got negative judgements, ridiculed, put downs, etc, which made them feel negative of themselves, have no self worth, no self esteem, believe people judge them negatively, etc - resulting in social anxiety. There is no illness there, its just what people have learnt and believed.
> Same with people who were abused as a child, they believe they are worthless and don't trust people to be nice to them, believing how they were treated was a reflection on how they are. Again there is no illness, its learnt.
> 
> ...


This post is aimed at a number of people who have made posts both in this thread and the many many threads like it, the above quote is just one example of the attitude I'm referring to.

Why is it some people need to believe every one is the same as them. It seems pretty clear to me that there is more than one cause of social anxiety. Some people think that their anxiety is caused by low self esteem, or low self confidence, and negative thinking. Some people believe it's caused by traumatic things that happened in their past like abuse or bullying. Some people (like myself) believe that there is a physical problem in the brain, like a chemical imbalance. And guess what if you look at the research we may all be right. Anxiety is not fully understood even by the experts that spend their lives researching it, so it's pointless to make bold statements about what is or isn't right. If you found something that helps you, or you have a theory about the cause of your anxiety then great, feel free to share, maybe you will help someone. Just don't imply that people who don't agree are somehow wrong. We are all different.


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

This thread kind of reminds me of a "its just all in your head" belief. It's the brain. sa is complex let alone the brain. I can tell a cardiologist that a heart attack is just all in your chest, why because its the heart. Their are no evil demons that prey on helpless people with sa everything is related to law. 

Magic doesnt exist. Their are clear reasons why people have sa. Causes can be trauma, negative conscious and unconscious beliefs, negative cognitions, upbringing is critical, need deprivation in a childs formative years, negative thinking patterns, not getting any respect from people, low self esteem, low self respect, low self worth, a poor self image, etc. I havent personally unlocked the secrets to the universe but our minds are very powerful and is the key to opening the door to opportunites.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

StrangeSpirit said:


> Why is it some people need to believe every one is the same as them. It seems pretty clear to me that there is more than one cause of social anxiety. Some people think that their anxiety is caused by low self esteem, or low self confidence, and negative thinking. Some people believe it's caused by traumatic things that happened in their past like abuse or bullying. Some people (like myself) believe that there is a physical problem in the brain, like a chemical imbalance. And guess what if you look at the research we may all be right. Anxiety is not fully understood even by the experts that spend their lives researching it, so it's pointless to make bold statements about what is or isn't right. If you found something that helps you, or you have a theory about the cause of your anxiety then great, feel free to share, maybe you will help someone. Just don't imply that people who don't agree are somehow wrong. We are all different.


You make a very good point and one that I can understand. This hepls me see the differences a lot of people may be facing. It makes sense on how some of my ideas would not seem a solution to someone feeling that they are affected by anxiety differently. Great response!


----------



## Want2Bconfident (Sep 14, 2008)

Disintegrate said:


> Michael/Charlie, I hope that you're not starting up with that attitude again. Btw, weren't you all better 2 years ago???
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion, but people here really don't need to be put down because they don't believe as you do.


Starting up with what attitude again? I know I had SA and I wasn't mentally ill so I am offended by people telling me SA is a mental illness and describing me as mentally ill. Can you not understand that? I was bullied and developed a lot of negative beliefs and became self conscious and felt unworthy, that was not me ill in the mind.

No, I was not better 2 years ago, I was working like crazy to try and overcome it and find the answers to beat the problems, but I have really changed the way I think and I am no longer stuck in a negative mindset of being self conscious, ashamed, feel negative of myself, feeling unworthy, etc, now I am in a positive mindset and things have changed amazingly for me.

I don't know why I bothered writing. This whole thread is just a discussion between people who are positive and pro-active and who are overcoming SA against those who have given up and want to find excuses. Neither will accept how the other thinks.

I can only say then that each case is different, its not right to say SA is a mental illness though, its wrong and offensive.

This is my last post on this forum, its full of negative people, I don't need it!


----------



## StrangeSpirit (May 10, 2008)

Want2Bconfident said:


> I don't know why I bothered writing. This whole thread is just a discussion between people who are positive and pro-active and who are overcoming SA against those who have given up and want to find excuses. Neither will accept how the other thinks.
> 
> I can only say then that each case is different, its not right to say SA is a mental illness though, its wrong and offensive.
> 
> This is my last post on this forum, its full of negative people, I don't need it!


I think you need to do a little research on mental illness, theirs no reason to see that title as an insult. Honestly I find it offensive that you are so offended by the idea of mental illness. I don't think any one here has just given up or is looking for excuses. If you did a little research you would see that people can recover from even some of the most serious of mental illnesses. A good example would be Schizophrenia, we can all agree that that's a real mental illness but people can recover and go on to lead normal lives. Just because some people consider anxiety to be a mental illness does not mean they are negative or have given up.


----------



## Want2Bconfident (Sep 14, 2008)

StrangeSpirit said:


> I think you need to do a little research on mental illness, theirs no reason to see that title as an insult. Honestly I find it offensive that you are so offended by the idea of mental illness. I don't think any one here has just given up or is looking for excuses. If you did a little research you would see that people can recover from even some of the most serious of mental illnesses. A good example would be Schizophrenia, we can all agree that that's a real mental illness but people can recover and go on to lead normal lives. Just because some people consider anxiety to be a mental illness does not mean they are negative or have given up.


I've offended you? Well why don't you say to someone you meet today that they are mentally ill and see what sort of response you get. Don't you think they would be offended? You can't go around telling people they are mentally ill when they are not, its offensive.
Is someone who is anxious doing public speaking, are they mentally ill? Its a social situation. Anyone who is anxious in such situations are mentally ill? Try telling them they are anxious because they are mentally ill and see what they say.


----------



## StrangeSpirit (May 10, 2008)

Want2Bconfident said:


> I've offended you? Well why don't you say to someone you meet today that they are mentally ill and see what sort of response you get. Don't you think they would be offended? You can't go around telling people they are mentally ill when they are not, its offensive.
> Is someone who is anxious doing public speaking, are they mentally ill? Its a social situation. Anyone who is anxious in such situations are mentally ill? Try telling them they are anxious because they are mentally ill and see what they say.


Everyone experiences some anxiety, it's normal and part of life. But what about when it gets way worse than normal. What happens when the person's anxiety in your example gets so bad that he ends up quitting his job or drops out of school because he can't handle that public speaking.

In your opinion how bad does anxiety have to get before it's no longer normal?
Due you agree that there is a point when anxiety gets so bad that it's no longer normal?
Or are all these people just lazy, negative and looking for an excuse?

To return to my original point that EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. Everything you said about yourself may be true. Maybe your problems are just psychological. But that doesn't mean every one else is the same and it doesn't change the fact that there are people who are truly suffering from life crushing anxiety.



Want2Bconfident said:


> You can't go around telling people they are mentally ill when they are not, its offensive.


And you can't tell people that they are fine when they aren't. People who agree with the real evidence and with the experts that show there is a point when anxiety becomes a mental illness.

And again I ask what is it you find so terrible about the idea of having a mental illness. What is it that you think that means?


----------



## Want2Bconfident (Sep 14, 2008)

StrangeSpirit said:


> Everyone experiences some anxiety, it's normal and part of life. But what about when it gets way worse than normal. What happens when the person's anxiety in your example gets so bad that he ends up quitting his job or drops out of school because he can't handle that public speaking.
> 
> In your opinion how bad does anxiety have to get before it's no longer normal?
> Due you agree that there is a point when anxiety gets so bad that it's no longer normal?
> ...


What is so terrible about the idea of having a mental illness? Because I wasn't ill. There was nothing wrong with my mind. An illness implies my mind is poorly/sick but my mind was and is working 100% fine. So people saying I was mentally ill when I had SA are talking rubbish.

I don't believe any level of social anxiety no matter how severe it is, that its an illness. Its all learnt. How can what you learn be an illnes?
People who have huge ego's such as pop stars and sports stars who are idolised and told how fantastic they are and get so much positive judgements - the positive judgements boost their self esteem, self worth, they believe they are fantastic and worthy, they have huge confidence in themselves, etc - its only natural that if people judge you a certain way whether its loads of positives or loads of negatives, it will impact on how you think of yourself, but it doesn't mean you have an illness. 
As for people who say they were born with SA, which I am not doubting, the problem there is that they believed something to be true from the beginning and are stuck thinking like that. Whilst they are stuck thinking the way they do they will never improve. I've heard the phrase social anxiety and irrational thinking patterns, but the thinking patterns are very rational but its based on an irrational core belief.

I have read people who blame their parents for their SA, saying they were always put down, judged negatively, told they weren't good enough, made to feel they really were inadequate and unworthy. But again, if they had different parents who told them they are amazing and fantastic, brilliant, worthy, good enough, etc, they would have a positive self image and believed they are good enough. Its all learnt. The negative judgements are totally flawed but to overcome it they need to be able to escape believing those negative judgements and believing what they were told is not true.

People who were bullied often have SA, its learnt from negative judgements.

Social anxiety is not a general anxiety problem where the anxiety just comes at any random time, its an anxiety about certain situations and judgements, so there are specific fears and beliefs triggering the anxiety. The beliefs and fears need to be changed in order to no longer trigger anxiety. Its not an illness, its negative beliefs and fears around people. 
The one thing in common with everyone with SA is that they have some hugely negative beliefs on some parts of themselves and are so hurt by certain negative judgements. That is no coincidence, its those negative beliefs and fears that trigger anxiety. You don't see any people on the SA forum who have huge confidence in everything about themselves.

Anyway, I don't mean to offend anyone. I just don't see social anxiety meaning you are ill in the mind, simply controlled by negative beliefs and fears.


----------



## stealyourface722 (Aug 31, 2008)

Want2Bconfident said:


> Starting up with what attitude again? I know I had SA and I wasn't mentally ill so I am offended by people telling me SA is a mental illness and describing me as mentally ill. Can you not understand that? I was bullied and developed a lot of negative beliefs and became self conscious and felt unworthy, that was not me ill in the mind.
> 
> No, I was not better 2 years ago, I was working like crazy to try and overcome it and find the answers to beat the problems, but I have really changed the way I think and I am no longer stuck in a negative mindset of being self conscious, ashamed, feel negative of myself, feeling unworthy, etc, now I am in a positive mindset and things have changed amazingly for me.
> 
> ...


good, leave.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

However, if you believe you may have a chemical imbalance in the brain then the theory of simple negative thinking is thrown out the window.

Still, Want2Bconfident gives a good example of how SA is situational and is due from judgement. Personally, I think of mentally ill as like unable to control your outcome due to a handicap, such as if you have a chemical imbalance in the brain. If you don't have a chemical imbalance, then what other reason can you think of as to why your SA is so problematic? Dramatic childhood or not, I also believe it's mainly due from one's perceptions, which is their thought process. Of corse, exemptions are if you have a chemical imbalance in the brain, which is good enough reason to say negative beliefs aren't the core problem. Still, that's the only thing I've heard of so far that would exempt working towards one's negative thinking.


----------



## finster (Jul 5, 2007)

In my gut I feel that SA qualifies as a mental illness because it has many similarities to other more well known and "accepted" disorders like depression. The fact that many here suffer some of these other disorders also makes me feel they are related.


----------



## screwjack (Dec 19, 2008)

Want2Bconfident said:


> What is so terrible about the idea of having a mental illness? Because I wasn't ill. There was nothing wrong with my mind. An illness implies my mind is poorly/sick but my mind was and is working 100% fine. So people saying I was mentally ill when I had SA are talking rubbish.


A lot of mental illnesses have nothing to do with intelligence. SA is an emotional disorder whether it's learned or it comes from an imbalance of chemicals, whatever the reason you can't regulate your emotions properly. This is not an excuse to give up, it is a way to understand why you need specialized help and can't just get over it like a "normal" person. If you have a problem with this then prove us wrong and just get better through sheer willpower and logic alone.


----------



## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

Well, SA is more extreme than shyness (shyness is a normal personality trait), anxiety can be debilitating. I get that people don't want to be labeled as "mentally ill," which is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. And using the label of "mentally ill" as a crutch is by no means acceptable, but I can't imagine how SA isn't technically a mental illness. Yes, it can be overcome, but so can many disorders. OCD, specific phobias, and panic disorder (to name a few) have treatments that seem to have high rates of efficacy, does that mean that they aren't mental illnesses? Being mentally ill doesn't mean that you're crazy; it simply means that something isn't currently functioning the way that it should. It doesn't signal that there is something inherently wrong with one's brain structure either, but that, perhaps, certain cognitions and behaviors need to be restructured a bit. It's not a death sentence, nor is it meant to be derogatory. Something such as mental retardation can't be overcome, but it is also a developmental disorder, not a mental illness.


----------



## Want2Bconfident (Sep 14, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> However, if you believe you may have a chemical imbalance in the brain then the theory of simple negative thinking is thrown out the window.
> 
> Still, Want2Bconfident gives a good example of how SA is situational and is due from judgement. Personally, I think of mentally ill as like unable to control your outcome due to a handicap, such as if you have a chemical imbalance in the brain. If you don't have a chemical imbalance, then what other reason can you think of as to why your SA is so problematic? Dramatic childhood or not, I also believe it's mainly due from one's perceptions, which is their thought process. Of corse, exemptions are if you have a chemical imbalance in the brain, which is good enough reason to say negative beliefs aren't the core problem. Still, that's the only thing I've heard of so far that would exempt working towards one's negative thinking.


I'd be interested to know how people with a chemical imbalance think about themselves, how they think people will judge them, what judgements they are afraid of, what situations they are fearful of, etc. I just think that SA is a specific phobia and surely a chemical imbalance would mean they have alsorts of generalised anxieties.

How can anyone who thinks really negatively of themselves and believe people will judge them negatively and is afraid of such judgements ever be anything but anxious in situations where they may be judged in this way?


----------



## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

There are people with purely situational SA who probably would benefit a lot more from psychological approaches. There are also people like me with generalised SA and other anxiety issues who are much more suited to chemical therapy. I would probably rather die than live with my anhedonia and other annoying mental features, and therapy is like pissing on a forest fire for me.

You can say what you want but I think it is unfair that I was born with less capacity for enjoyment than others, and you can **** off if you think you can tell me what I can and can't do with my own body.

There are two sides to the argument and both are valid for different people; end of thread.


----------



## Disintegrate (Jun 28, 2006)

bwidger85 said:


> Can you give me an example of how I put you down please?


I wasn't referring to you, bwidger. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Disintegrate (Jun 28, 2006)

Drella said:


> Well, SA is more extreme than shyness (shyness is a normal personality trait), anxiety can be debilitating. I get that people don't want to be labeled as "mentally ill," which is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. And using the label of "mentally ill" as a crutch is by no means acceptable, but I can't imagine how SA isn't technically a mental illness. Yes, it can be overcome, but so can many disorders. OCD, specific phobias, and panic disorder (to name a few) have treatments that seem to have high rates of efficacy, does that mean that they aren't mental illnesses? Being mentally ill doesn't mean that you're crazy; it simply means that something isn't currently functioning the way that it should. It doesn't signal that there is something inherently wrong with one's brain structure either, but that, perhaps, certain cognitions and behaviors need to be restructured a bit. It's not a death sentence, nor is it meant to be derogatory. Something such as mental retardation can't be overcome, but it is also a developmental disorder, not a mental illness.


Stated very well. :nw


----------



## Laughy~Taffy (Feb 11, 2009)

bwidger85 you should've standed by 90% of what you said. 
i understand SA _sometimes_ is a mental illness, but as i believe bwidger's intentions were, you don't have to play into the role and concept of "mental illness" because just as you can be mentally ill, you can be something greater. not that you are anything less, but why not put the labels aside and realize _whichever_ condition you are going through does not exclusively define who you are as a person?


----------



## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

I do like the mentality that you're in control and have to actively work to get your SA better, fight the negative thoughts, confidence, exposure therapy, etc. 

At the same time, you have to be open to the possibility that not everybody has the identical causes and triggers of SA. There are probably genetic and environmental factors, some people are naturally very sensitive people, there is a threshold in specific situations that trigger feeling anxious. These are usually involved in some sort of social situation or expectation on performance. (performance anxiety) 

Not everybody suffering from SA was constantly bullied and ridiculed. There is obviously genetic predispositions, but I do have faith that we can improve and actively work on controlling sensitivity and perception. 

I think I've improved a lot the last couple years, but have a long ways to go yet. I'm functional and I overall I am happy, but I still strive for more. I've never used meds, but I'd like to have a benzo for special occasions. 

As for the "mental illness" it is just a label. I don't even care to fight it. I'm pretty sure the APA labels severe social anxiety as a mental disorder. I think you're going to have to burden that title in some situations, even if you don't like it and it offends you. So many stupid labels out there, it is only has as much power as you allow it to.


----------



## Sugababie4 (Jan 6, 2009)

nobodyuknow said:


> I think you didn't take many things into account. How do you explain children with Selective Mutism? What if you have been like this your whole life? When I was a kid, I didn't think I was mentally ill, yet I was still very, very shy, and anxious. In fact, I knew nothing about labels like that, so I couldn't apply them to myself. Yet I still felt the same. So why was I like that? (Sorry to use myself as an example, I just genuinely want to know.)


Exactly. I was a mute. I had the same characteristics as a selective mute...except for the selective part. I was extremely shy. And although I didn't know anything about social anxiety...those symptoms were still maladaptive.

I guess you have a good point--who wants to be called "mentally ill"? But I don't think that calling it something else will make it all better. I suppose you meant well, though, so I don't mean to attack you.


----------



## Futurebeats (Feb 11, 2009)

I havn't had time to read the whole thead.. buuuuut

I think the label of 'social anxiety' as a mental illness carries a kind of stigma, and in a way it can become a self fulfilling prophecy once people start believing they are ill. I think it can consume you, and it's better to think in terms of having a sensitive personality and learning ways to deal with it.

There's so many possible causes for it, could be purely psychological, could be an imbalance of brain chemistry making people more susceptible.. who knows. The severity differs with every sufferer, I think it's too complex for a lazy blanket term. 

I don't think it's good to dwell too much on being ill or 'wrong' in any way.
It's more a learning process of accepting who you are and finding a way to deal with it that makes you happy.

I don't have much faith in psychiatry since not enough is known yet, could the categorising and labeling actually be damaging?
When neuroscience gets to the stage of being able to pin point the exact reason for why someone might think in a certain way, i'll believe in the illness... psychology is an area of science that relies too much on philosophy


----------



## jim695 (Jan 19, 2009)

SA is definately not a mental illness. 

Too many of us are very intelligent and sensitive people. To put us in the same category as mental retardation, psychosis, or schizophenia is simply wrong! It is an undesireable condition but certainly not a serious mental illness.


----------



## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

jim695 said:


> SA is definately not a mental illness.
> 
> Too many of us are very intelligent and sensitive people. To put us in the same category as mental retardation, psychosis, or schizophenia is simply wrong! It is an undesireable condition but certainly not a serious mental illness.


By definition it is a mental illness. It may not affect intelligence, but can be as disabling as schizophrenia in severe cases (avoidant people). I think your point is that it isn't permanent like retardation and can be cured, which is fair enough.


----------



## spiritwild (Nov 12, 2005)

I find that a lot of people with anxiety problems tend to analyze other people.
I mastered it. Just staying in the shadows watching, studying, wandering how they could
function in the same situation that caused me so much stress.

Problem is we want everyone to try and understand our condition, yet we don't take the time to actually look at things from the others point of view.

I always classify them as the (normal) ones.
If someone is not educated on something, they are usually quick to classify it the best way they now. Weird or shy. Doesn't really matter. As far as people are concerned they are all perfectly normal and will usually classify others by their own assumptions.
It's pretty much like a day on the farm. Chickens hang with chickens and turkeys hang with turkeys. Now if a chicken just walked over and said, "hey wazup", that would just be 
wierd to the other chicken's. It would be cool if they could really talk though 

I had to try and convince a group of my co workers about another, who was having depression issues. some people I found just will not accept things as an illness or otherwise. Especially is they were never fond of said person anyway.
I find that to be as wierd through my eyes, as my condition is through theirs.

I found the one person who refused to accept or understand the depression condition was one who just lost their
mother a few months ago. I remember her being upset with people because they didn't understand what she was going through.

I found it so odd that she would be the one to be so defiant in the situation.
But I also knew that there was more going on in her head emotionally,chemically or hormonally that she would ever understand. I still found her reaction to be strange from what I would have expected. Considering her own situation prior.

Myself, i don't feel the need to explain my situation to anyone that i feel "isn't going to get it" most people are not that deep and understanding. i do take the time to respect how they see things based on what society, friends, family, media has taught them through out their life. I also feel more compelled to push people who have the condition, to look harder and deeper into what you can do for yourself to overcome certain disorders.
To step out and be different from the stereotypical sufferer. You may teach yourself
to frown upon how the "norms" react, but you long to act the same way.

Yes, it goes beyond just saying "go to a doctor" but if someone is tired of it, educate yourself on how to just takes steps. you may think you can just walk through the door
and poof, but you will find yourself making excuses to justify your actions.

Which at times will most likely be passing blame or judgement onto someone else.


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

nobodyuknow said:


> I think you didn't take many things into account. How do you explain children with Selective Mutism? What if you have been like this your whole life?
> 
> If you are going to get into a Nature vs. Nurture debate, I think it is both. Yes, there are ways of coping -- you can change things in your environment, you can change the way you think to get out of that mindtrap -- but it is genetic as well. Look up identical twin studies and Social Anxiety.


I agree. Selective mutism is an extreme form of social phobia. Im pretty sure their are causes but they arent very clear. Upbringing is important to ones development not just biology. Ive never heard of a pathological social phobic but maybe they do exist. thank you Adam and eve.


----------



## Axelis (Jul 19, 2009)

Honestly can't believe this is being debated.

I haven't read the entire thread but I have scanned the most recent posts. First, though I am sure it has been said, mental illness is defined as any problem - behavioral, emotional, etc. - that is severe enough to be considered abnormal, and may require help from a professional. 

Abnormal is psychological/behavioral pattern that negatively impacts the life, or at least inhibits normal functions. For example, depressed people often experience fatigue and a lack of motivation. As a result, they might not even get out of bed during the day. That is abnormal and a mental illness.

I can't speak for all of you, but I am sure there are a lot of people that don't just have a case of shyness. SA is a illness that results in people not just having butterflies but altogether avoiding social confrontations. They can't hold a job, or may not ever have a job. They have difficulty in school and might drop out or find a way to decrease social interaction. Something as simple as a phone call can be an extremely difficult task for someone with SA.

This is not normal behavior. It is a behavioral pattern that is hurting the regular functions of an individual. It is disabling, and, as such, can be considered a mental illness or mental disorder.

Now, to those that think it is a learned behavior and can be overcome by correcting these behaviors - you are not entirely wrong but you have a major misconception. Even learned behaviors can be disabling, and therefore considered a mental illness. APA recognizes negative learned behaviors as abnormal. Also, behavioral psychologists believe that we can correct some abnormalities by changing our behavior - which can be a difficult process that requires proper treatment and special programs.

I agree that we do have the power to overcome SA, however, I also believe that real SA is a mental illness.


----------



## delirium (Jun 24, 2009)

"mental illness", "abnormal", and other words like these are loaded with negative connotations. When most people think about mental illness they think of a crazy person in a straight jacket. Nobody wants to be identified as one of "those people" because it's alienating, isolating, and you feel judged. Strip these words of their negative connotations and they're just inert labels.

Classifying SA as a "mental illness" or "psychological disorder" allows psychologists to study it, and figure out how to treat it as to improve the quality of many people's lives. It also gives those people a context in which to find help -- once a person figures out they have SA (or are dealing with feelings that could be considered SA) they can proceed to find help in the psychological literature -- they have a word to type into library search engines, Google, etc.


----------



## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

The original post contains many logical fallacies and is not an evidence-based or cogent argument.


----------



## AliBaba (Nov 16, 2005)

jim695 said:


> SA is definately not a mental illness.
> 
> Too many of us are very intelligent and sensitive people. To put us in the same category as mental retardation, psychosis, or schizophenia is simply wrong! It is an undesireable condition but certainly not a serious mental illness.


I haven't read this entire thread so this very well may have been pointed out. Mental retardation is not classified as a mental illness. Although I did nearly spit out my drink each time i've read this while skimming . There's something about someone saying retardation is a mental illness that just makes me laugh. I've never heard anyone even suggest such a thing until I opened this thread. Maybe that's it.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I got nothing...




Edit: By definition SA can be a mental illness. That was a mistake on my part. What else is needed to be said? Not everyone is going to believe that SA can be overcome. I made some bad similarities to convey a message. Nonetheless, good debate.


----------



## foxwithwings13 (Jul 21, 2009)

Hoth said:


> A mental disorder is basically any way of thinking which is counterproductive to living in the society we have. Social anxiety is certainly that. Less problematic than some disorders, and different from insanity, of course.


This.


----------



## kev (Jan 28, 2005)

Depends how you define illness. People with social anxiety are wired differently. Is it an illness? I think that's a question of semantics. In psychiatry, a disorder is basically defined as anything that can be treated with medication.


----------



## ChrissyQ (Apr 15, 2009)

QUOTE

"Example of a positive emotional chain-reaction comprised by positive counteractions (no SA):



Ridicule->Self-conscious awareness->Realizing your positive attributes(counteraction)->unaffect self-esteem = no SA (positive esteem)

Ridicule->Self-conscious awareness->Realzing the ignorance of such an observation and it's falseness(counteraction)->unaffected self-esteem = no SA (positive esteem)

Anxiety->Self-conscious awareness->Realizing it's normal to feel anxiety rather than thinking it's unatural(counteraction)->No self-deflating believes->unaffected self-esteem = no SA (positive esteem)

Environmental anxiety->Self-conscious awareness->Realizing that you feel anxiety not because you have a disorder but rather because it's an anxiety-prone situation(counteraction)->You are normal->unaffected self-esteem = no SA (postive esteem)"

helpful!


----------



## milo001 (Nov 26, 2008)

SA is definitely a mental disorder.they're many types of mental disorders other than schizophrenia.i know i'm not just shy or very shy.the level is different.


----------



## xyzhousexyz (Jun 21, 2009)

I agree with the poster. 
I would like to hear what shrink would think about this, because thinking about it now, I would consider SA, to be shyness mixed with some sort of obsessive disorder, because we do obsesses about our shyness. I see a lot of shy people in my day to day, you can label anyone at work at school who doesn't talk aloud and talk to everyone and dance a joke around as being shy, and they are, most everyone is shy when first meeting people. BUt the difference between us and those that we call out going or not shy *even though they are* is that we obsessed about other people, our flaws, what to say, I wonder if there is a obsessive disorder in regards to social ness because That is what I'd be more incline to call our disorder. And that would make both sides of the argument right, it is shyness and it is a disorder just an obsessive one.


----------



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

xyzhousexyz said:


> I agree with the poster.
> I would like to hear what shrink would think about this, because thinking about it now, I would consider SA, to be shyness mixed with some sort of obsessive disorder, because we do obsesses about our shyness. I see a lot of shy people in my day to day, you can label anyone at work at school who doesn't talk aloud and talk to everyone and dance a joke around as being shy, and they are, most everyone is shy when first meeting people. BUt the difference between us and those that we call out going or not shy *even though they are* is that we obsessed about other people, our flaws, what to say, I wonder if there is a obsessive disorder in regards to social ness because That is what I'd be more incline to call our disorder. And that would make both sides of the argument right, it is shyness and it is a disorder just an obsessive one.


SA is something I think we can all learn from and grow from. I say "shyness" because it MAY not be exactly an overbearing sensation as SA is, but it is something people can adapt to and grow from. Yeah, sure, it may be by definition a "mental illness" but like shyness it CAN be flexible, adaptable and manageable. People who experience levels of shyness encounter fear on some levels as SA'ers but obviously not to the extreme conditions. Still, who knows? Maybe some people who are shy feel the same extremes as a SA'er but simply don't define themselves to have SA. What were people before there was a public reference to social anxiety, just shy people? And before there was a public reference for being "shy", was everyone simply mentally retarded or possessed?

In general, extroverted and introverted people seem to simply manage their "problems" differently. People who are shy may be shy at some instances and be confident at others, while some SA'ers don't have that same amount of flexibility and/or knowledge or experience. Meanwhile, considered "extroverts" can be shy at one particular instance, still consider themselves "extroverted", and have a different level of confidence above that of a considered shy person. So where are the lines drawn? Perhaps by the way we handle our troubles? Extroverts are more known to be aggressive while introverts are prone to be passive, and passive doesn't solve much beyond brooding - it's a learning experience. It's not surprising extroverts are more adapted to social situations and handling stressful situations because they have a more aggressive stance towards life and thus are more adaptable to stresses, while SA'ers are just stuck without advancement because of their "stuck" mannerisms. Who knows? Certainly, I have come a long way from being SA-prone to feeling just "shy" to now somewhere between extroverted and introverted because I have gone through a series of learning experiences. You can be "shy" and experience fear possibly at the same level as an SA'er, so who's to say it's not similar but just defined differently?


----------



## Happ2beme (Jul 13, 2009)

I can do "Pitt Pumps"


----------



## xyzhousexyz (Jun 21, 2009)

Happ2beme said:


> I can do "Pitt Pumps"


pitt pumps are grose.:no


----------



## KindredSpirit (Sep 30, 2008)

Little Willow said:


> Double ditto


Triple Ditto


----------



## secretlyshecries (Sep 10, 2009)

> I stopped reading right there. Having a mental illness does not mean somebody is mentally retarded.


I stopped from there on too. I have depression, which is a mental illness. So apparently I'm retarded.


----------



## odicepaul (Jul 20, 2009)

bwidger85 said:


> I'm so tired of hearing that social anxiety is a mental illness! That's putting extreme shyness on the same level as retardation! Come on guys, let's really focus here and put this whole thing into perspective!
> 
> ..........................................................................................................................................
> The point is, SA isn't a mental disability. Shyness is a learned behavior. Negative self-consciousness is a learned behavior. On the other hand, positive self-conciousness is also a learned behavior and like food you need to feed yourself a better psyche. Wihtout food you starve. By abandoning your willingness to overcome you are abandoning your chances of learning ways to love yourself. Vaguely, challenges are what helps us discover who we truely are.
> ...


Well good luck with all of that kiddo, but the basic truth is that SA is most often a side affect of a mental illness. So although you may not be able to treat the SA as such, you must find the cause of the situation that it puts you in and treat that. It could be a depressive illness, or even a medical or physical illness that will put some one into a Social Anxiety state that when untreated becomes a state of Life. I say "state of life" because it isn't as simple as positive thinking to get out of it for most people. I guess it depends on the level of your illness, and make no mistake, it is a mental illness.

"A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture."


----------



## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

Cypress said:


> I stopped reading right there. Having a mental illness does not mean somebody is mentally retarded.


Ok, no ****. He is just making a point, alot of us with "sa" build it up and we aren't born with it though we might be vulnerable to it. We label it, we make it this thing out of nothing and we fall victim to the consequences. It isn't a disease and believing it is IS the trap that is keeping you with it. Everyone is shy, some people just don't know how to deal with it. Social anxiety is retarded


----------



## lyssado707 (Oct 29, 2004)

I don't have a problem being called mentally ill. If anything i'd like to refute the negative connotations that go along with that term by showing that not all mentally ill individuals fit that stereotype.


----------



## KindredSpirit (Sep 30, 2008)

SolaceChaser said:


> Ok, no ****. He is just making a point, alot of us with "sa" build it up and we aren't born with it though we might be vulnerable to it. We label it, we make it this thing out of nothing and we fall victim to the consequences. It isn't a disease and believing it is IS the trap that is keeping you with it. Everyone is shy, some people just don't know how to deal with it. Social anxiety is retarded


Ok, Are you saying that Social anxiety is retarded or people saying they have Social anxiety is retarded?


----------



## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

bwidger85 said:


> I'm so tired of hearing that social anxiety is a mental illness! That's putting extreme shyness on the same level as retardation!


SA most certainly is a mental illness. I would agree that SA is basically shyness taken to the extreme, but then many mental illnesses are normal things that become abnormal because they are taken to an abnormal extreme. Drinking a glass or two of wine with dinner is normal. Drinking bottle after bottle till you pass out is called alcoholism and is listed in the DSM as a mental illness. Washing your hands after handling something dirty is normal. Washing your hands hundreds of times a day till they are bleeding is way past normal and would be a form of OCD, also listed in the DSM as a mental illness.

To say SA is a mental illness most certainly doesn't put it on the same level as retardation. There is a great spectrum of severity when it comes to both mental and physical problems. A common cold is a physical illness just the same as cancer is, even though cancer is clearly vastly more serious and likely to kill you than is a cold.


----------

