# PEA & Selegiline



## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Maybe a combination of the legal supplement Phenylethylamine and the MAO-B inhibitor Selegiline could improve depression and SA.



> Sustained antidepressant effect of PEA replacement.
> 
> Sabelli H, Fink P, Fawcett J, Tom C.
> 
> ...





> L-deprenyl plus L-phenylalanine
> in the treatment of depression
> by
> Birkmayer W, Riederer P, Linauer W, Knoll J
> ...


The SAS member Euphoria already tried this combo. Maybe he could write a report about his experiences and if he thinks it could be useful "not just to get high", but more as a long term solution like in the study. Low dose Selegiline induces powerful antioxidant systems in the body and has shown to extend the lifespan of several animal species. If just MAO-B is inhibited no special diet has to be followed and it could be combined with SSRIs. If I should try it myself I would be very careful, starting with low doses. I also have Carvedilol, Clonazepam and Haloperidol at hand, just to be on the safe side.


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## Dothan (Feb 8, 2009)

PEA with selegiline is overkill in my mind. this is way too stimulating, this certainly cant be healthie. selegiline is very close to methampethamin, in fact it metabolites to meth. but just in small doses, so not drangerous. 
though I would advise taking selegiline with phenylanine in small doses


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

If you inhibit MAO-B with Selegiline and take a very huge dose of PEA, you could get a stroke - that's right. But I was talking about very carefully adding PEA to Selegiline and having the right antidots available (benzos, combined alpha/beta-blockers, antipsychotics). The Dose Makes the Poison. If you eg. take Carvedilol before Selegiline + PEA you won't see a dangerous rise in blood pressure and heart rate, even if you overdosed a little bit - it's been antagonized.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Dothan said:


> PEA with selegiline is overkill in my mind. this is way too stimulating, this certainly cant be healthie. selegiline is very close to methampethamin, in fact it metabolites to meth. but just in small doses, so not drangerous.
> though I would advise taking selegiline with phenylanine in small doses


As long as you take a certain cocktail for neuroprotection and to block adrenergic activity, I think it's perfectly safe.

Here's a quick report on today's experience:

I hadn't taken selegiline for several weeks, so decided to dose 20mg to rapidly inhibit MAO-B enzymes. After a couple of hours, I dosed approximately 400mg PEA (dose is much less with sustained selegiline use).

After an hour or so, I felt a mild "rushy" feeling in my head accompanied by talkativeness, hypersexuality, motivation, and euphoria. I'm certain the feeling compares to meth (proven in research), cocaine and other stimulants, though I've only done poor quality cocaine before. It certainly beat the hell out of that!

Side-effects included a mildly elevated heart rate and dry mouth. This could all be prevented by carvedilol and/or atomoxetine/reboxetine. I noticed that if you keep redosing and don't wait to come down each time, the heart rate effect builds greatly. However, there doesn't appear to be any "crash" following effects, which is probably due to PEA only reversing the DAT, not depleting all the dopamine like amphetamine.

I read PEA has serotonergic activity too, but my SSRI blocks all that. I imagine it'd feel a bit like ecstasy if I weren't on antidepressants.

For all practical purposes, PEA is an incredibly cheap, yet potent, Adderall substitute.


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## Jimminy_Billy_Bob (Nov 26, 2008)

PEA is definately an interesting supplement, I wonder how long it will be legal. If I had known about it before I was on nardil I would definately be taking it right now, along with my nootropic stack.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

There are no plans to make it illegal AFAIK.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

What do you guys think about 300mg Venlafaxine + 5mg Selegiline + PEA? Which PEA-dose would be perfect, not to get high, but to get a prosocial + AD effect. Extra Carvedilol necessary?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I will probably just use 5-10mg Selegiline + PEA. When I order it from PureBulk.com (exremely cheap) I will have to cap it myself, because they just have 500mg capsules or pure powder if I remember correctly. And I will use Carvedilol 25mg extra, playing around with the PEA doses. How long is the duration of action or how often do I have to redose in your opinion? If the effects from one dose would last at least some hours that would be cool.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

But he says he got great pleasure out of it at least.  Maybe he took not enough Selegiline. He also says he takes a "fairly low dose" of PEA. Maybe with a higher dose + Carvedilol it's better.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I'll sure do, already ordering it.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

What would happen if you combine Selegiline + PEA with 1.5ml GBL, you may end up in heaven or the hospital.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Medline said:


> What do you guys think about 300mg Venlafaxine + 5mg Selegiline + PEA? Which PEA-dose would be perfect, not to get high, but to get a prosocial + AD effect. Extra Carvedilol necessary?


Venlafaxine may blocks PEA's effects via the DAT. Atomoxetine or reboxetine would be better.

PEA dose will depend how long you've been on selegiline and at what dose. Could be anywhere between 20mg-1000mg. Start low...

Also yes add carvedilol.

PEA's duration depends how active your MAO-B enzymes are. I'm sure it can be extended greatly with selegiline and an NRI + carvedilol in place.



> What would happen if you combine Selegiline + PEA with 1.5ml GBL, you may end up in heaven or the hospital.


GBL didn't mix too well with PEA and selegiline, for me. I ended up in the hospital with a hypertensive crisis and seizures.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> GBL didn't mix too well with PEA and selegiline, for me. I ended up in the hospital with a hypertensive crisis and seizures.


Thank you very much for the info!


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Interesting thread from another forum: http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=34001


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

What do u guys think of the combo Selegiline+PEA, Klonopin and Lexapro?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Sounds nice, but add Carvedilol.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Propanolol ok too? I still have some bottles of propanolol so that would be easy.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Wikipedia:


> Beta blockers must not be used in the treatment of cocaine, amphetamine, or other alpha adrenergic stimulant overdose. The blockade of only beta receptors increases hypertension, reduces coronary blood flow, left ventricular function, and cardiac output and tissue perfusion by means of leaving the alpha adrenergic system stimulation unopposed.


I think Carvedilol is more secure in case you accidently overdose on the PEA, as it blocks alpha receptors too.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

You mean in case of PEA + Selegiline overdose pure beta blockers would kill?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Sadly, most people don't know this. They just think: My heart rate is much too fast, I'll pop some Inderal to be "safe".


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Are there any combined alpha/beta-blockers that block all alpha and beta adrenergic activity (a1, a2, b1, b2, b3)?

Also, does this only antagonize the peripheral nervous system effects without compromising any of the beneficial CNS stimulation?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> Are there any combined alpha/beta-blockers that block all alpha and beta adrenergic activity (a1, a2, b1, b2, b3)?


Carvedilol is probably the closest you can get easily.



> Also, does this only antagonize the peripheral nervous system effects without compromising any of the beneficial CNS stimulation?


Yes to most extent.

Maybe combining low dose Selegiline (5-10mg) with PEA and an NRI is even smarter than just adding Carvedilol, who knows without trying.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Any updates on this (Euphoria) ?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I would be interested too if PEA + Selegiline could be a longterm solution, or just a "for fun" thing. Please give an update Euphoria.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I miss him too, smart guy. What do you think rockandroll, could PEA + Selegiline be a longterm solution for SA, or can it just be used recreationally?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Ok, that's what I thought too.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

So which stimulant do you guys think is best suitable for long term use?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Adderall probably.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Selegiline + Wellbutrin... hmmm... could give much energy, but also anxiety or a seizure. You tried it? And amineptine is great for sure, but hard to find and you never know it's the real deal, do you?


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## beaches09 (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm sure he's ok making playing with his regimen. For the last 3 weeks even though I've been pretty good I've been unable to put my thoughts together to write letters and crap. lmao Probably from new med

Also, I tried that selegiline/wellbutrin thing two days ago. I read about it online that some people even take 150mg wellbutrin with it I was like omg noway lmfao. I only took 25mg wellbutrin with 10mg selegiline just as a test to make sure I would be ok. Hardly enough to probably get anything good out of it though. I've been agitated the previous few days before that possibly from much my protein shakes so it's hard to tell and I'll have to give that a few days to clear out. I'll be willing to try the wellbutrin with it again possibly and in higher dose. My next try would be 50mg wellbutrin with 2.5mg selegiline and see what happens. Maybe I'll try that next week.

How long until all those amino acids from my protein drinks level out of my system do you guys think? Been a few days now.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

When i buy PEA from Purebulk, is it best to cap it myself, or can i just throw it in with some water (or orangejuice) ?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Both is possible.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Haha ok, but it makes no big difference in effectiveness? Sorry for all the questions lol.
I'm in hypermode, because i think this can be a very good combo! Thanks


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Medline said:


> I would be interested too if PEA + Selegiline could be a longterm solution, or just a "for fun" thing. Please give an update Euphoria.


Update on my life:

I received loads of pharmaceuticals, then got myself extremely benzoed up. In my dumb state of mind I decided to take 1000mg bupropion. My memory is very vague, but I experienced a horrible overdose, head shaking, jerky movements, red eyes, strange heart rhythm, confusion, depression, etc. My parents took me to hospital and took all my drugs.

Right now I'm 90% back to normal, though I still have minor trouble with co-ordination. This has been improving every day, and a couple more days is all I need.

My psychiatrist now is stopping prescribing 20mg escitalopram because of drug abuse, but next week I have a meeting with him and another specialist. Hopefully, being clean for a week will incline them more to prescribe something for my schizoid symptoms and reinstate the antidepressant. I've already ordered sulpiride and escitalopram for if he doesn't help me.

My longer-term plans are quite extensive. I will eventually get on the following regimen:

Selegiline
PEA
Atomoxetine
Carvedilol
Amisulpride
Escitalopram
Yohimbine
Buprenorphine
Oxycodone
Proglumide
Ultra low-dose naltrexone
Glycine
JDTic
Modafinil
Phenytoin
Aniracetam
Trazodone
Huperzine A
Zinc
Magnesium
Tryptophan
DLPA
Vitamin C
Creatine
Theanine
Inositol
Folate
Omega 3 fatty acids
Multivitamin
Vitamin B complex
Carbidopa
Rhodiola
Ampakines
SAMe
Picamilon
Niacinamide
Melatonin
Reservatrol
Choline
Lysine
Testosterone

Additional drugs occasionally to negate opioid withdrawal:

GHB
Serine/D-serine/cycloserine

Where do I start with my regimen? Well, selegiline and PEA produces massive dopamine euphoria, but atomoxetine is required to prevent noradrenaline release too. Carvedilol will further lower my blood pressure and heart rate, leaving a calm state of bliss.

Next is amisulpiride. At low doses it blocks the dopamine receptors responsible for regulating dopamine synthesis and release, so when it's blocked, the body starts producing and releasing more dopamine. Yohimbine works in a similar way on serotonin by blocking the serotonin receptors that control synthesis/release. With these two, I will achieve a greatly higher level of serotonin and dopamine activity that will be sustainable for a long time. Perhaps like MDMA? Who knows...? Yohimbine does cause unwanted noradrenaline release so more carvedilol can be added.

I will be continuing with escitalopram at 20mg; higher or lower depending on how yohimbine affects it. One effect yohimbine has is to reverse SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction, so I could go pretty high... Also worth noting is trazodone, which I'll be taking for pro-sexual an sedative effects.

Moving down the list are the opiates buprenorphine and oxycoone. These two have obvious benefits (buprenorphine especially due to kappa antagonism), but tolerance is a *****. I will add proglumide to prevent this as a cholecystokinin antagonist and delta-opioid activator. Tolerance however develops to proglumide itself, so I'll need to use it for maybe 2 weeks each month to reset tolerance again. I may also take low doses of ketamine throughout the day to prevent tolerance, low doses of naltrexone nightly, and of course magnesium for this as well as its own antidepressant effects. Result: opioid euphoria every day with no withdrawal or lessening of effects. If for some reason tolerance developed, I could use GHB and modafinil to rapidly reset my tolerance via glutamate activity with zero discomfort.

I added glycine due to its role in schizophrenia and psychosis. I believe the glycine NMDA site is the root of psychosis -- blocking it gives psychosis, and activating it makes you more "sane". I wonder how sane I can become...

JDTic is pretty unavailable right now, but is a powerful opioidergic antidepressant with no dependence/tolerance/withdrawal issues.

Next, modafinil, choline and huperzine all enhance brain function without many side-effects. I will become literally smarter, more focused and alert. Aniracetam is another "smart drug", with an additional impressive antidepressant effect.

Other supplements I'll have are zinc, folate and magnesium as antidepressants, tryptophan to boost serotonin levels, vitamin C for health, DLPA for dopamine and its enkephalinase inhibitory attributes (increases natural "feel good" chemicals), theanine for its anxiolytic, mood-boosting and heart-calming effects, inositol for serotonin enhancement, omega 3 fatty acids for general mental health, multivitamins and B complexes for obvious reasons, SAMe for inducing mania (haha), ampakines for mood-enhancement, picamilon and niacinamide for anxiety and melatonin for sleep.

I have plans for my physical health too. I'll be taking creatine to build muscle and increase energy, and probably taking testosterone orally for its bodybuilding and sexual effects -- I'm not yet out of puberty, and testosterone levels in puberty determine the adult size of penis... Not that I'm inadequate, but who doesn't want more? Haha. Another weird thing I discovered is that taking lysine increases semen production (quite markedly according to internet reports)... Still not decided if more is necessarily better, hahaha.

The results of this combo are unimaginable really. Try asking someone who's done heroin, crack and MDMA all at once, and you might get an idea.

I will also be partaking in a vast array of recreational drugs, but I won't post that list .

Woo finished typing that. Took forever.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Not the best psychopharmacologist in the world could tell if it is possible to survive such a massive cocktail and substance abuse.  You could try if Selegiline + PEA + Reboxetine is suitable longterm and add some stuff like fish oil, inositol. But taking sooooo many drugs won't work out. It would probably kill you.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm not gonna take them all at once, obviously . Just starting with the base combo of atomoxetime, selegiline, PEA and escitalopram first, then will slowly add others until I reach a suitable state of mind.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Why atomoxetime and not reboxetine? How long is the duration of action of a usual "PEA + Selegiline cocktail" (including doses please). Do you think it can be a long term solution or just be used recreationally because of short duration of action or because people could know you're high. Selegiline alone is neuroprotective and very healthy at low doses, but what do you think about raising PEA levels permanently so f****ing high, couldn't this cause neurotoxicity. Are you sure NRIs solve the blood pressure problem from trying or is it just a theory. But then again, Carvedilol is available easily. Sorry for the many questions, interesting topic.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Medline said:


> Why atomoxetime and not reboxetine? How long is the duration of action of a usual "PEA + Selegiline cocktail" (including doses please). Do you think it can be a long term solution or just be used recreationally because of short duration of action or because people could know you're high. Selegiline alone is neuroprotective and very healthy at low doses, but what do you think about raising PEA levels permanently so f****ing high, couldn't this cause neurotoxicity. Are you sure NRIs solve the blood pressure problem from trying or is it just a theory. But then again, Carvedilol is available easily. Sorry for the many questions, interesting topic.


The duration of action can vary from 40 minutes to 8+ hours from what I've read, depending on MAO-B levels and intake of dopamine precursors. You need to dose DLPA and tryptophan pretty regularly if you plan on releasing so much dopamine/serotonin all the time, otherwise you'll just crash out and receive minimal effect after a while.

I really doubt neurotoxicity will be an issue with selegiline, antioxidants, magnesium, etc. in the mix.

I am 99% NRIs solve the adrenergic problem, but they themselves may increase NA activity enough to warrant a low dose of carvedilol.

I think it is very much a long-term solution as long as you load up on amino acids and otherwise keep your brain+body in good shape. It would probably be less outwardly visible than being on Ritalin, as NA activity would be lower than that and you wouldn't be jittery. Really though I dunno how much people would equate the behaviour with drug-use or just being an incredibly cool person .



> Why atomoxetime and not reboxetine?


Because I found it online really cheap .


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Wow, that's an impressive list! 
I want to try the combo of Lexapro, Selegiline+PEA (+Cardevidol), and Klonopin (Phenibut) as needed.
I already have L-tryptophan, L-theanine, DLPA, magnesium and DMAE to prevent crashing. I will order some extra inositol and choline.
I am already taking Clonidine for my blushing/flushing problem. Can this give a bad reaction with any of the other meds?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

The Carvedilol alone should help with blushing/flushing IMHO. I wouldn't take clonidine too in that cocktail. When will you have all meds/supps? Keep us updated on how it's going.


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Ok, thanks for the advice, but i have to say Clonidine is working pretty well. Hope Cardevidol does the same job.
I ordered everything except Lexapro today. I am going to my doctor for that. You think Lexapro>Stablon in this combo?
I will keep you guys updated offcourse!


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Take the Lexapro please. And play it safe!


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## Dothan (Feb 8, 2009)

@euphoria:
this is pure madness, you are a dabbler who thinks, he has any idea what he is doing, but you are not. flush your body&brain direct to the tolilet. argh forget it why would I border you arent worth it


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

> I am already taking Clonidine for my blushing/flushing problem. Can this give a bad reaction with any of the other meds?


Definitely try to replace clonidine with carvedilol. Doesn't give any rebound/withdrawal.



Dothan said:


> @euphoria:
> this is pure madness, you are a dabbler who thinks, he has any idea what he is doing, but you are not. flush your body&brain direct to the tolilet. argh forget it why would I border you arent worth it


Madness? This is Sparta!


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I've ordered Testogel yesterday.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Should 50mg Amisulpride (Solian) be added to a Selegiline + PEA + DLPA + Carvedilol (+ NRI) mix, or would that be too much?


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## beaches09 (Feb 1, 2009)

Damn bro, please be careful. That's an arsenal of a cocktail lol


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Who has actually tried the PEA + Selegiline combo except Euphoria? Anyone?


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

*euphoria: Definitely try to replace clonidine with carvedilol. Doesn't give any rebound/withdrawal.*

You mean taking Carvedilol every day? I am now taking Clonidine every day and it's working pretty well against blushing/flushing. I've taken Propanolol before but it didn't really help with the blushing. You think Carvedilol can work better than Propanolol (and Clonidine) against blushing when taken daily?
Thanks.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Carvedilol could help vs. blushing, but I don't know how good it is in comparison with clonidine. But when you try PEA + Selegiline you should take Carvedilol too (without Clonidine).


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

OMFG! 
I've never felt like this before in my WHOLE life!
The PEA arrived yesterday, but the Selegiline has yet to come. I decided i wanted to give PEA a try asap so i took 1,5 gram of PEA+500mg L-Theanine. 
Man, that was almost unbelievable. I felt intense lightheaded and euphoria within 10 minutes like i never felt before. The fist 10 minutes i couldn't walk straight and my head was feeling a little bit like it was going to explode. (But in a nice way lol)
After that an hour of wellbeing and an overall good feeling. After that the feeling wore off.
I definitely want to try Selegine+PEA now i know what it can do. I hope the effects remain longer, because the duration of PEA alone is too short too use it in the long run.
MAN that was CRAZY!


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Nice to hear PEA alone can work that good if high dosed, but be careful if combined with the Selegiline and add Carvedilol before.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Beffrey28 said:


> OMFG!
> I've never felt like this before in my WHOLE life!
> The PEA arrived yesterday, but the Selegiline has yet to come. I decided i wanted to give PEA a try asap so i took 1,5 gram of PEA+500mg L-Theanine.
> Man, that was almost unbelievable. I felt intense lightheaded and euphoria within 10 minutes like i never felt before. The fist 10 minutes i couldn't walk straight and my head was feeling a little bit like it was going to explode. (But in a nice way lol)
> ...


You'll need either carvedilol or an NRI like reboxetine when using high doses for long periods of time with selegiline, plus some supplements. For me, even re-dosing once gives me way too much anxiety and lesser euphoria.

This is really dangerous; be careful.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

I wonder how this combo compares to the effects of dextroamphetamine, both psychologically and the adverse cardiovascular events (blood pressure and heart rate increase.)

Amphetamines only raise blood pressure 2-4mmHg on average at therapeutic doses, so if selegiline+PEA is dangerous I'm guessing it's probably more like a 25-30mmHg increase (like cocaine or MDMA)?


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

It is probably extremely similar to dextroamphetamine.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

After reading this thread (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=414337) I think PEA + Selegiline (+ Carvedilol/Reboxetine) will be relatively useless in the longterm because of the too short duration of action. It would have been pretty cool though.


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## arhmt9 (Mar 8, 2009)

Medline - Have you tried selegiline by itself? How much were you taking and did you think Parnate or Selegiline worked better?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

I tried Selegiline 5mg without PEA earlier, of course Parnate has much stronger AD effects than that.


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## CSASF2009 (Apr 19, 2009)

Medline did Selegiline give you any increased anxiety symptoms?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

No


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## AdrenalineRush (Apr 23, 2009)

euphoria said:


> Update on my life:
> 
> I received loads of pharmaceuticals, then got myself extremely benzoed up. In my dumb state of mind I decided to take 1000mg bupropion.


Hey euphoria,

thats a massive list of supplements. Wellbutrin in that high doses (1000mg) has a very high seizure risk!

Its almost impossible to find by accident (or trial and error) the right combination in your supplement list. Your brain has to adjust to the substances, this takes time. So even taking the exact same regimen every day, in the beginning the effects won't be constant.

If you have such a big supply of supplements, you will want to try something different and new every other day. Some days will be good days, some days not. But when you want to repeat the regimen of that good day, the second time its not going to be a good day again. But why? Maybe because of the other factors, that influenced your mood, like for example the nice girl you met the first day. Or its because of some supplements from yesterday still being active today or having exhausted some neurotransmitters yesterday and today you're not back to baseline. You never know. Furthermore its difficult to tell on your own, how you appear to other people around you. And the people around you are one day in a good mood, the next in a bad. So you can't tell easy from their reactions. Getting constant results and understanding how the different medicines influence you is very difficult. If you are messing around with many different supplements at the same time its only going to confuse you BIG TIME!
What I want to say: What you are going to do has very low chance of success, but a high chance of causing harm to you: Psychically or physically! The recommendation of a good doctor has the highest chance to bring you good benefits fast, without harming you and without experimenting around more than really necessary.

Anyway I worry you are going to experiment on your own, so at least do it in a systematic way:
Be careful. Strattera takes a lot of time till the effects get stable. For many people up to 6 weeks. If you drop in Selegiline before, you won't have a chance do get a feeling from what drug which effects are and which drug you should dose higher or lower. Because if effects change you don't know if its from the Seleg, or if Strattera is still adjusting.
Just take make a simple math-calculation and you will get a picture how many different possibilities of combining your different supplements with different dosages you have.
The only chance of finding the right dosage in the right combination is to get A FEELING for the effects of the individual medication alone, before! When you know the effects and you know how it changes when you up the dosage, you can start to combine with ONE more medication.
There is a chance the combination of Strattera and Selegiline will make you angry and aggressive towards other people. Escitalopram might bring you back the love then. But its normally not that simple.

Please ask a doctor to guide you on what you are doing and let me know how you are. If you have questions to the above mentioned medications you can ask me - but take in mind I'm not a doctor! I experimented around like you. So trust me about my warnings! I even did the same combination (Strattera, Selegiline and Escitalopram). And it's a very difficult one. Selegiline alone is already very difficult, because it builds up being an IRREVERSIBLE MAO-B inhibitor. So a dose which is great the first day might build up to much if you continue taking it the following days and will cause you depression soon, because the neurotransmitters modulate each other and for example raising Dopamine too much, lowers Serotonine! If Seleg builds up even more it might inhibit MAO-A some day as well, which has very different effects and risk of hypertensive crisis. If you take the Selegiline orally it will metabolise to L-Amphetamine and L-Methamphetamine which have a strong effect on noradrenaline as well (but almost no effect on dopamine, because not being the recreational D-Isomers). Maybe you don't want that, already taking Strattera for noradrenaline.
Taking Selegiline sublingually avoids these Amphetamine-metabolites, but is 8 times stronger at the same dosage! So be even more careful not to reach the MAO-A inhibition!!
Using only few, but effective pharmaceuticals in a systematic way and research them thoroughly is way better, than randomly popping different combinations that might cause you permanent damage!
And stay away from testosterone! It will influence your hormonal-axis in a very bad way in your age, with impact on your future health as a man!

Took me a lot of time to write all this. I don't invest my time without a good reason!
So please be careful buddy!!


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

> Hey euphoria,
> 
> thats a massive list of supplements. Wellbutrin in that high doses (1000mg) has a very high seizure risk!


As he already was "extremely benzoed up", chances of a seizure were probably pretty low. But of course it's a very bad idea to take 1g Bupropion.



> If you have such a big supply of supplements,


His supply is very small right now AFAIK.



> What you are going to do has very low chance of success, but a high chance of causing harm to you


I think that too. Much too much negative interaction possibilities.



> If you take the Selegiline orally it will metabolise to L-Amphetamine and L-Methamphetamine which have a strong effect on noradrenaline


It metabolizes to very low levels of those substances AFAIK.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Just something I remembered today: when I was taking PEA + selegiline a while back, drinking alcohol caused a hypertensive reaction. Maybe alcohol raises PEA levels as it's claimed to on wikipedia (same for cannabis).



AdrenalineRush said:


> Hey euphoria,
> 
> thats a massive list of supplements. Wellbutrin in that high doses (1000mg) has a very high seizure risk!


I took 10-20mg clonazepam (with no tolerance) along with all the Wellbutrin over several days, so there was little risk. Now I've stopped taking depressant drugs, I am not making stupid decisions like taking massive doses of drugs anyway.



> Maybe because of the other factors, that influenced your mood, like for example the nice girl you met the first day.


There are a lot of factors, yeah. This is why I'm keeping a clearer head now so I can think about them and not act impulsively.



> What I want to say: What you are going to do has very low chance of success, but a high chance of causing harm to you: Psychically or physically! The recommendation of a good doctor has the highest chance to bring you good benefits fast, without harming you and without experimenting around more than really necessary.


Just for the record, I don't plan to take all those drugs/supplements I listed at the same time. It was just my personal shortlist for an ideal regimen; I would take only a few at a time.



> The only chance of finding the right dosage in the right combination is to get A FEELING for the effects of the individual medication alone, before! When you know the effects and you know how it changes when you up the dosage, you can start to combine with ONE more medication.


I have tried most of them before individually, and plan to in future.



> Please ask a doctor to guide you on what you are doing and let me know how you are. If you have questions to the above mentioned medications you can ask me - but take in mind I'm not a doctor! I experimented around like you. So trust me about my warnings! I even did the same combination (Strattera, Selegiline and Escitalopram). And it's a very difficult one. Selegiline alone is already very difficult, because it builds up being an IRREVERSIBLE MAO-B inhibitor. So a dose which is great the first day might build up to much if you continue taking it the following days and will cause you depression soon, because the neurotransmitters modulate each other and for example raising Dopamine too much, lowers Serotonine! If Seleg builds up even more it might inhibit MAO-A some day as well, which has very different effects and risk of hypertensive crisis. If you take the Selegiline orally it will metabolise to L-Amphetamine and L-Methamphetamine which have a strong effect on noradrenaline as well (but almost no effect on dopamine, because not being the recreational D-Isomers). Maybe you don't want that, already taking Strattera for noradrenaline.


Yup, I know all this.



> Using only few, but effective pharmaceuticals in a systematic way and research them thoroughly is way better, than randomly popping different combinations that might cause you permanent damage!


I usually do things in a much smarter, scientific way, but all my overdoses and stuff were the result of me being on drugs like GHB, clonazepam and alcohol at the time.



> And stay away from testosterone! It will influence your hormonal-axis in a very bad way in your age, with impact on your future health as a man!


That idea was nothing I'd consider going through with without being sure it'd be safe. I planned to do more research on it, and I'm pretty sure I'd have realised it's a bad idea.


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## River99 (Jun 11, 2009)

is carvedilol better than clonidine with this combo if you want to avoid potential side effects like hypertension? if yes, then why, clonidinde is primarily marketed as against hypertension, so shouldnt it be a better choise? TIA


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## Beffrey28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Is there a really big difference on dopamine activity between 5mg Selegiline daily or 10 mg daily?

"At dosages up to around 10 mg or so daily, selegiline retains its selectivity for the type-B MAO iso-enzyme; but it is also a weak reversible inhibitor of the type-A MAO iso-enzyme. In contrast to unselective and irreversible MAO inhibitors such as tranylcypromine (Parnate) and phenelzine (Nardil), both of which strongly potentiate the catecholamine-releasing effect of tyramine, selegiline inhibits it. This ensures that low-dosage selegiline does not induce the hypertensive "cheese effect". A regimen of 2 x 5 mg daily of selegiline irreversibly inhibits over 90% of MAO-B in the basal ganglia, the location of over 80% of dopamine in the human brain. This level of MAO-B inhibition leads to a 40%-70% increase in synaptic dopamine."

This sounds pretty nice, so i maybe want to increase my dosage to 10 mg first before i try the 5mg + low dose Ritalin combo.
What do you guys think?
Oh and will 10mg Selegiline significantly boost the effects of L-Tyrosine if i take let's say 4 grams of L-Tyrosine daily?

I don't like the abuse potential of PEA (really high abuse potential) and Ritalin. I also dont like the possible side effects of Amisulpride (Prolactin) so i'm looking for safer alternatives.

Thanks for the help guys!


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## Micliph (Dec 28, 2008)

I have tried PEA and Selegiline together and it did nothing for my SA, it only made me more jittery and it also gave me a headache. But when i smoked a cigarette i got nicotine high every time i lit and smoked one. Beer also affected me more in a good way.


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## HalfLife (Sep 9, 2009)

I tried this PEA+Seleg combo for a while. It was bliss for a month or so, but not so much now. In fact, I get horrible depression when the PEA wears out. Forget about heading out the door. :/


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

^ You need to think about long-term prospects of such a combo. In its most basic form, it's nothing more than a recipe for dependency and horrific amphetamine-like withdrawals. Magnesium, zinc, memantine, even ketamine, are worth some research. It shouldn't be too long now before we are able to disable the hedonic treadmill.


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## HalfLife (Sep 9, 2009)

euphoria said:


> ^ You need to think about long-term prospects of such a combo. In its most basic form, it's nothing more than a recipe for dependency and horrific amphetamine-like withdrawals. Magnesium, zinc, memantine, even ketamine, are worth some research. It shouldn't be too long now before we are able to disable the hedonic treadmill.


I had actually tried it out before this month long episode. A few hours before going to bed, alone, and sparse between a day or two. It was something to experience for a change aside from feeling like a worthless piece of **** 24/7. It wasn't too bad. I was not concerned about anxiety since I was taking it alone. I was probably asleep by the time the depression would hit.
Couple of months went by when I decided to try it out during the day while interacting with people. Taking 2.5mg seleg + a gram or two of PEA a day. The outcome wasn't so good. Felt like **** and intensely disconnected from everybody else. Like my usual self, but only 3 times amplified.

I would probably continue taking it. Planning not to encounter another soul while on it. What else am I gonna do with x100 pills of selegiline and 250g of PEA...

What else could I take to taper off the comedown?
I have phenibut, l-tryptophan, l-theanine, inderal, picamilon, 5htp at my disposal.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

bump.. great thread here...

also, a simple (i'm sure ) question for you receptor/interaction-gurus here:

how would propranolol compare to carvedilol in this Seleg+PEA stack.. i have both available currently, but alas... despite a bit of knowledge in the area, i'm no pharmacology expert, so i don't wanna do anything dumb.. 

****PS - what are your best recommendations for supporting the *parasympathetic nervous system* during all of these kinds of dopaminergic/catecholaminergic agonism ventures??

i'm at a loss.. cuz *it seems that whenever i take selegiline or anything with "up" properties like green tea or such, my body's relaxation response (endocrine gland activation, etc.) more often than not has a (chemically-)hard time keeping up... *taking cholinergic (lecithin+b5) type supps really hasn't been enough.. it's more like my body chooses to be overly-sympathetic still...

it's a shame, cuz that's all i'm really missing.. :mum

maybe euphoria could recommend something here??

-z


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## Payn (Sep 15, 2008)

Be careful, PEA + selegiline can be addictive and dangerous! effects last 15-20 minutes tops and you must re-dose and time of duration of combo effects is too short to be usefull for any purpose. When i was on it, i had horrible anxiety and panic attacks, I thought i was going to die.

you may try caffeine, ephedra or chocamine without MAO-B inhibitors. i'd stay away from amphetamines.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

zodiac55 said:


> how would propranolol compare to carvedilol in this Seleg+PEA stack.. i have both available currently, but alas... despite a bit of knowledge in the area, i'm no pharmacology expert, so i don't wanna do anything dumb..


I wouldn't take either with a stimulant. Carvedilol may theoretically be safer with stimulants, as it is an alpha-beta-blocker while propranolol is just a beta blocker - the latter could lower perceived sympathetic activation without preventing the blood pressure effects of alpha 1 caused by those drugs; carvedilol as mentioned blocks this receptor. But like I said, I wouldn't have the balls to mix the two based on pure conjecture, I mean, you could have a stroke or heart attack, etc., if it didn't work out. Even with blood pressure monitoring, I would avoid mixing blood pressure meds and stimulants unless it was an extreme situation like carvedilol for stimulant overdose. I retract any previous advocacy of such combos.

I thought this combo had potential, but PEA was too short-acting and too uncomfortably stimulating, which built with successive doses. I can't remember too well though, maybe it would be more practical with chronic higher (but still MAOB selective) selegiline doses, but I dunno. PEA can be very easily overdosed if you don't know how much MAOB inhibition you've got - chronic selegiline dosing makes the required dose tiny. I think NRIs might be a safer way of blocking the bad stimulating effects of PEA, but it'd likely be quite complicated with timing the dosing schedule right, *starting with very low doses to test interactions*, etc.. It still could be very risky. GABAergics like benzos, phenibut, picamilon, baclofen, etc., could be an alternative method of blocking the bad stimulant effects. Theanine also.

Another combo I've heard about is selegiline (still at MAOB selective doses) with low dose DL-phenylalanine, which is a precursor to dopamine, noradrenaline and PEA. I'm guessing it'd be longer acting and perhaps less peripherally stimulating, but I dunno. The above mentioned NRI method could cause a hypertensive crisis if applied to the DL-phenylalanine combo, due to the additional increase of noradrenaline.

There's also the problem of tolerance. Memantine would probably take care of that. Without it, dopaminergics don't tend to sustain their euphoric/mood-elevating effects too long. As for addiction and psychosis, the best anti-them augmentation ideas I can think of would be cholinergics and serotonergics (SSRIs, 5-HT1A agonists, 5-HT2A antagonists, etc.) to induce clear, positive thinking. Maybe GABAergics too to control fear/paranoia. There's also dyskinesia, anorexia, and so on... Stimulants are serious drugs with potentially severe side effects, but they can be minimised by sticking to a therapeutic dose and not letting yourself slide into abuse and addiction. It may feel great but from what I've heard, psychosis doesn't.



> ****PS - what are your best recommendations for supporting the *parasympathetic nervous system* during all of these kinds of dopaminergic/catecholaminergic agonism ventures??


Acetylcarnitine, CDP-choline, meclofenoxate, take your pick. There are some useful ones listed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic#Cholinergics


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

thanks much, euphoria, for the nicely detailed, lengthy reply.
i'll stay away from this combo for the most part, then, if that's sorta the view behind it -- i don't have any purpose for such things anyway, and i am not actually looking for recreational type stuff at this point in my life.

i've come to be very, very thankful to have the decently-well-balanced existence that i have right now, *and don't feel at all compelled to greed-fully trade it for a small chance at 'more' -- in all aspects, except for just ONE.. which is that parasympathetic-type "insufficiency" that i'm so often faced with... (tension w/o enough relaxation response, poor smooth muscle/glandular activation, etc.)*
:mum

so yeh, pick-me-ups like seleg and such are nice.. but what's there to counterbalance it? 

unfortunately, i've tried all of those supps that you mention (thanks for the suggestions!) at one time or another... to little/no avail. alas, the underlying issue may just be more complicated than.. that..? learning to remain positively relaxed & "open" has probably been the most conducive to 'remedying' this out of all the things i've tried.. but it's still nowhere near enough, and unlike the above, i say that in an absolutely pharmaceutically-greedy way, haha.

thanks again... any other notes/suggestions would be highly appreciated.. i'll chime in again here and there -- this is a kickass thread.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Just thought I might chime in since it's been a long while and I've come to learn a whole lot of stuff since the last post on this thread.

(Mostly in categories other than this one... but I did recently have a huge delay in the doc getting my next amph script, so I decided to try working a bit with PEA to sorta 'taper down' using it... lol-tastic half-life and all, haha. :bash)

First off - as many have now found out for themselves, low-level NMDA antagonism is indeed generally very good for reversing or at least maintaining stim tolerance. Whether it's vs. amph, or "the brain's natural amph - PEA" :\ ...those guys will sit there and act on those poor NMDA receptors like nobody's business. As a result, their effects will greatly (*greatly*) diminish on subsequent dosing... depending on the stim and your individual response, of course. Amph for me was never too bad in this respect, I'd start to notice some diminishing effects after a day or two of split therapeutic doses -- but while working with PEA, I found that I *HAD* to have some sort of low-level NMDA-ceiling at all times (such as acamprosate, it performed well)... otherwise, literally after the first dose of the day, all subsequent re-ups would pretty much not even be felt. Again, /headbash.

Secondly, the stuff IS pretty dumbfoundingly *inconvenient*, as anyone searching for info will come to understand from just going out and reading up on some *smart* peoples' anecdotes  vs. the hyped/product-testing ones on BB forums from c.~2006, hehe. That doesn't mean it's ABSOLUTE TRASH or something, but that you'd best be prepared for some major annoyances if you choose to work with this supp and aren't at least somewhat experienced in psychopharmacology. Euphoria's above post regarding the level of MAO-B inhibition vs. dosage is all spot on, as are his statements about the dosages being very tricky to work with (especially with a long-acting MAOI like deprenyl, which will add up over repeated daily doses). Perhaps something like Hordenine would provide slightly better efficacy in this regard, but I don't really feel enough of a draw towards PEA whatsoever to test this out myself or give it much more thought, heheh. Just thought I would at least jot down some notes here for the benefit of anyone stumbling upon this thread... while it was still fresh in my head.

Thirdly, something like PHENIBUT or BACLOFEN are actually going to be the most "reliable and consistent" cures towards pretty much *all* of PEA's negative over-stimulation effects.. IME. The former of which, while absolutely kickass in its own right, has been (very correctly!) described in many anecdotes as *absolutely ridiculous* if used any more frequently than, say, 3 times a week. It is incredibly long-lasting (activating those receptors way longer than most will "feel it" - especially anyone w/ a "recreation-head" attitude  who might feel quite inclined to just add more doses w/o proper downtime). Due to this, Phenibut can produce some crazy tolerance issues and horrible/long withdrawals from the slow process of GABA-B re-regulating, blah blah - so, basically, just as a disclaimer for harm-reduction around SAS: Do not, DO NOT f**k yourself over in the long-term by doing this, or just avoid it altogether. There... I now feel a bit more like Captain Planet... "*Stop harmful-knowledge pollution on forums today! (tm)*" xD

Alas - while I'm covering this spectrum in some detail, it deserves to be mentioned that *the best and only real way to counter* the inevitable scenario of doom with Phenibut is to simply use Baclofen instead (which is much shorter-acting, etc.), or just to taper down w/ Baclofen and stop with the Phenibut madness once and for all.  Baclofen doesn't normally share many of the 'positivity'/sociability effects of Phenibut, perhaps (though it does for some!), but it is certainly a hell of a lot better than laying around w/ horrible panic attacks/insomnia for days in a row... har.

...I think there are a few other points that could use a bit more clarification... but regarding this specific topic (and this extensive thread-database of years-spanning questions and mixed comments), I just wanted to sorta round things out by saying that using exogenous PEA in a Deprenyl combo is simply very much "not practical" and not worthwhile. As most of my elder "psychonauts" have gone on to inevitably report, so, too, should you heed the warning should you stumble upon this. If you aren't accompanied by expert advice or are an expert yourself, don't try to reinvent the wheel -- find something truly therapeutic for yourself instead. 

Best wishes, SAS! ..as always.
-Z


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## MrDurden (Jul 16, 2013)

I just registered here, cause I can save some lives that user euphoria could kill.



euphoria said:


> As long as you take a certain cocktail for neuroprotection and to block adrenergic activity, I think it's perfectly safe.


Wrong. PEA is neuroprotective "as is" (in doses 10-300 mg per serving), because PEA is strong D2 receptor agonist, which one protects all dopamine receptors from shutting down or oxidation stress.

The stupidest "advice" here is to block adrenergic activity when you are on PEA (and selegiline). If you wanna have heart attack, yeah, you can do this.



> Side-effects included a mildly elevated heart rate and dry mouth. This could all be prevented by carvedilol and/or atomoxetine/reboxetine. I noticed that if you keep redosing and don't wait to come down each time, the heart rate effect builds greatly. However, there doesn't appear to be any "crash" following effects, which is probably due to PEA only reversing the DAT, not depleting all the dopamine like amphetamine.


OMG, do you even think before you post advices like that? I think many people will read this, listen to you and have irreversible harm.

How could you recommend beta-blockers with any stimulant? And how could you recommend any adrenergic blockers as first option?

PEA reversing DAT and NET, but not SERT.

So, euphoria, you are very talented:
- First you are taking beta and alfa-blockers for stop adrenergic activity, THEN you tell us, that PEA do not act on NET, hahahha. How you can feel adrenergic activity, when you blocked it?
- Then you recommend reboxetine for better adrenergic activity (HAHAHAHAHAH!!!),
- And generally you recommend beta-blockers for elevated heart-rate after PEA!

I'm on PEA and selegiline more than one year and I can tell you:
1. Reboxetine or any other NRI are bad idea. Amphetamines (like PEA) are good only with other stimulants which not acts on reuptake transporters. So you can use caffeine (eg. 500 mg per day) for better effects,
2. Any NDRI or NRI with this mix (reboxetine, methylphenidate etc.) will make effects of PEA much weaker (NRI/NDRI stops transporters NET and/or DAT if they are reversed or not),
3. Any beta-blockers with ANY STIMULANTS can cause heart attack, with PEA you have more chances than with NDRI.

So how I calm down my heart?
...
...
..........WITH POTTASIUM

Yes, in this mix (PEA and selegiline) eg. 500 mg of pottasium chloride 30 minutes before next serving of PEA will do the job.

No beta blockers are necessary, no alfa-blockers either.

In this mix, the better solution is:
- Selegiline 5-10 mg per day (5 mg in the morning and eventually another 5 mg evening),
- PEA from 10 mg to 300 mg per saving (veery individual timing and dosing), 10 mg works snorted very vell (higher bioavalibility),
- 10 mg of cetirizine per day (PEA is strong histamines releaser)
- if you want better effects, caffeine USP 300-800 mg per day is good (remember to do pauses when tollerance is high).


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## Gustavus (Oct 31, 2013)

Hi,
I'm trying to use Selegiline + PEA for my health issues.
I have severe chronic visceral pain, IBS, tenesmus, deep depression, apathy. 

10 mg selegiline daily (after breakfast) + 70-100 mg PEA (on empty stomach) seem to work very well to improve all the symptoms. It destroys depression and reduce chronic pain and IBS. 
It's almost awesome. But the effects are really short, 20-40 minutes.
I need to find a way to prolong the effects. Did you find a way to make these effects last longer?

Is it a sustainable combo long term?
Is there anyone there which use this combo?

I need support.
Please, let me know.
Thank you


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## Schneegestein (Mar 22, 2016)

This what you feel is the Dopamine release, a more prolonged way would be adding something like methylphenidate or amphetamine.

PEA got a short half-life so you have to redose...
I also did this combination but got no good results. Its easy with a combination like this to get an addiction : / Do you feel euphoria ??

Do you take Emsam or just oral Selegiline ?
If its Emsam it is HIGHLY DANGEROUS with PEA, cause theres not only a an effect to Dopamine but also on Norepinephrine which attack your bloodpressure !

Way better ( in my opinion ) , what i also take is an non-selective Maoi with Methylphenidate or low-dose Dexamphetamine.

With something like this you beat anenergic Depression hardly ! Parnate in high dosage is absolutly the best medication for severe Depression with apathy and WAY MORE EFFECTIVE than your combination 

greetings Schneegestein


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## Gustavus (Oct 31, 2013)

thank you Schneegestein,

I take oral selegiline, I feel not just euphoria, it's a weird state of normality, in which I am no more aphatetic and I have stimuli to do things and feel emotions, while I'm usually completely flat. But I have the impression that this is the way to be addicted to a future hell, so I am afraid of redosing...

I tried to take 5mg of Ritalin instead of PEA, only one time, but the comedown of Ritalin was too strong. I felt good for 1 - 1,5 hour and then I had a big crash. While with PEA I feel no crash, only a return to my usual (horrible) emptyness.

So do you advice Parnate + Methylphenidate? 
I never tried Parnate...


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## Gustavus (Oct 31, 2013)

My Pdoc prescribed me Parmodalin (10 mg Parnate + 1 mg Stelazine), the only MAOi available here in my country. 
15 days on 10 mg/day. No effects. 

Today I start to take 20 mg/day. We'll see how it goes. 

Anyway I think that the Stelazine, as a D1 and D2 antagonist, could kill the effect of Parnate, connected with the dopamine circuit, which is probably a major part of my health issues.
For now I have no choice. I only hope that the minimal dosage of Stelazine in Parmodalin, is not enough to kill the dopamine effect completely.


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## shotdrink (Nov 12, 2014)

Gustavus said:


> My Pdoc prescribed me Parmodalin (10 mg Parnate + 1 mg Stelazine), the only MAOi available here in my country.
> 15 days on 10 mg/day. No effects.
> 
> Today I start to take 20 mg/day. We'll see how it goes.
> ...


Stay away from Stelazine or tardive disknesya may develop... I have only this maoi even in my country, so i have imported Nardil


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