# Weight loss first then muscle? Or both?



## modus (Apr 27, 2011)

I want to lose a little weight and gain muscle at the same time, but I'm confused because I don't see how that's possible if you have to consume more calories to build muscle and consume less calories to lose weight.

The only fat I have left is on my entire ab region, just enough padding to look bad but holy **** is it stubborn. Thing is, I have a very long way to go with muscle building so I really wanna hit that hard but that ab fat just has to go!

After reading up, I'd also like to know if making the following changes in my life will be as beneficial as I think:

1. Consuming fish oil (how much?)
2. Drastically reducing ice cream intake (once a month, if that)
3. Using only free weights, no machines
4. This one is difficult to share, but I really want to know if masturbation twice a week maximum will help

One last thing I'd like to ask about is if my after-workout habit of consuming a glass and a half of Six-Star Whey Protein mixed with 2% milk is OK to continue doing. It's hard for me to cut down on milk cause I love it so much.

Thanks for any help.


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## Ready To Freak Out (Jul 20, 2010)

It sounds like your abs are just a problem region, so unfortunately I don't think calorie cutting is the answer. For a problem area, you just have to work it extra hard.

As to your other questions:
1. I've repeatedly read that we're sposed to eat about 4oz of fish like salmon, so I'd guess about as much as is contained in that, but that's just a guess.
2. Ice cream is full of sugar and fat, so yeah, ditch it, or at least switch to a fat free, low sugar frozen yogurt.
3. Machines are fine, as long as you're pushing yourself. It's all about the burn in your muscles.
4. Not sure what masturbation would do for muscle building but it's healthy for you in general, so yeah, enjoy ;op

I'd say get away from the 2% milk. It's high in saturated fat, which is a no no. Switch to skim. Without knowing how much activity you're doing, it's hard to say whether you need the protein powder in it after a workout. One cup of milk on its own has 9 grams of protein. You should know how many grams of protein you're supposed to be getting each day for your age, gender, and activity level and consume accordingly.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

It's true what they say, about needing more calories to build muscle but less to lose fat. 
But if you're a beginner, I think your body can still build new muscle even in a calorie deficit...just for a few weeks or so. 
So I'd suggest starting with cleaning up your diet, using proper portion control and plenty of protein along with 5 days a week of 30 minutes cardio. After a few weeks of this, start doing a basic weight lifting routine, focusing less on lifting as much as you can, and more on getting through the entire workout so you can develop a routine instead of getting extremely sore and not wanting to do it again. Do this for a few more weeks.
If you do it that way, it should take about 6 to 8 weeks and you should have lost the weight you were trying to lose by now. Then, you can start eating more and having more intense workouts, while having less cardio...maybe even drop typical cardio and do high intensity interval training.

Question is: how bad you do want it?


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## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

Me, i would cut the weight first then gain the muscle which is what im doing


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

Oh and your whey/milk mix is fine...milk is good for you in moderation, like anything else.


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## modus (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for the answers, all of you.



the cheat said:


> So I'd suggest starting with cleaning up your diet, using proper portion control and plenty of protein along with 5 days a week of 30 minutes cardio. After a few weeks of this, start doing a basic weight lifting routine, focusing less on lifting as much as you can, and more on getting through the entire workout so you can develop a routine instead of getting extremely sore and not wanting to do it again. Do this for a few more weeks.
> If you do it that way, it should take about 6 to 8 weeks and you should have lost the weight you were trying to lose by now. Then, you can start eating more and having more intense workouts, while having less cardio...maybe even drop typical cardio and do high intensity interval training.
> 
> Question is: how bad you do want it?


Bad enough to push through 6 to 8 weeks to see results. That's no time at all really.

My diet isn't too bad.. I guess I do have Pizza Hut like twice a week. Probably too much even though I just get wings and potato wedges. I cut pop out of my diet for about a year now. I probably have a bottle once every three months, seriously. I eat Subway a couple times a week too. I get a 6 inch tuna on wheat with banana peppers, lettuce, pepper jack, and sweet onion sauce, all melted. That's pretty good, right? It's what I've been getting for a very long time now.

A problem may be that my medication suppresses my diet. There's no way I'm ever hungry for three meals a day.

I'm going to follow your instructions to a tee and report back in a few weeks. I hate... HAAATE cardio but I've been doing it 15 minutes a day for a couple weeks now so might as well just do it your way at this point. I get concerned because my heart rate levels out at 180 - 185 BPM during runs. The first two runs a couple weeks ago, it was at 205! Now I'm noticing that my heart rate lowers faster when I'm cooling down... improved endurance? The odd thing is that my resting heart rate is ultra-healthy, or so says a nurse EVERY time they take my blood pressure.


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## Quantic (May 30, 2011)

I've talked quite a bit with someone who was training to be a sports nutritionist. He said if I wanted to stay the same weight but build muscle (aka losing fat at the same time) to just eat exactly how many calories I burn. If I eat more calories, then I'd gain weight (mostly in muscle), if I eat less calories then I'd lose weight (mostly in fat). But either way, if you are working out regularly and eat right then your body will be building up muscle while breaking down fat.

One important thing I remember is that your muscles want to use glycogen for fuel if there's any available. When you are doing cardio, your body also would like to use glycogen. The trick is to lift weights first which depletes your muscles of stored glycogen, THEN do cardio. Since there is no glycogen available for fuel your body is forced to burn fat instead.

exrx has a bunch of calculators. Use the "Calorie Requirements" and the "Exercise Calories Burned". -- http://www.exrx.net/Calculators.html

Also check out their weight management page: http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss.html


Anaerobic Exercise
hastens fat loss and restores muscle mass
but does not significantly reduce body weight without dietary changes

 - With a typical exercise program, it is common to maintain weight yet lose fat and gain muscle

As always, do lots of research and figure out what works for you. Cardio is important and will get easier. Just keep working out, eat healthy foods http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/Foods.html , drink lots of water (cold water does actually burn more calories -- your body has to warm up the water before it can use it) and sleep right.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

^Yes, definitely do cardio after lifting weights, if you're gonna do it on the same day.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

exobyte said:


> Thanks for the answers, all of you.
> 
> Bad enough to push through 6 to 8 weeks to see results. That's no time at all really.
> 
> ...


If you're trying to burn fat, gain muscle, or both, then what you eat can be, and often is, even more important than working out. You should at least figure out how many calories a day your body uses, just a rough estimate is fine.
If you don't have a lot of fat to lose, it won't even take 8 weeks to get to the point where you can do less cardio and lift weights mostly. If you only like doing 15 minutes of cardio, you can do that, but do high intensity intervals.
Sprint for a fixed amount of time, like 20 seconds and then jog for 40 seconds. Do that 10 times after a 5 minute warm up jog, and finish with a 5 minute jog/run and that's 20 minutes. You might even want to puke if you sprinted hard enough, and you don't even need to do it 5 days a week. 4 is plenty because it keeps your metabolism up for over 24 hours. The key is when you sprint...you gotta sprint...like, thinking a black bear is running after you.


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## Zen Mechanics (Aug 3, 2007)

Ready To Freak Out said:


> It sounds like your abs are just a problem region, so unfortunately I don't think calorie cutting is the answer. For a problem area, you just have to work it extra hard..


There is no such thing as spot reduction of fat. Working an area paticularly hard will not make you lose more fat from that area, where you store fat is entirely genetic.

To OP sounds like you are 'skinny' fat, that is, carrying little muscle mass but still with a bit of fat or a gut. To be honest your body is going to really struggly to get rid of that last bit of fat.. some people are just genetically predisposed to have that stomach no matter what and it's the -very- last thing that goes, and some people's body just won't let them get a low enough bf to get rid of it.

If I was you I'd start hitting the weights hard and eating more to build up some muscle, if you've never done weight lifting before and you work out -properly- you will gain a ****load of muscle in the next few months. Than once you have put on 20-30lbs you can do another cut if you are still worried about stomach fat - your body tends to burn fat more readily if you have more muscle as well.

Starting out compound free weight exercises are definitely better than machines.. you don't need a whole lot of volume, go look into the 5x5 or starting strength workouts

Also masturbation only effects your test levels for an hour or so after (hence tired after sex), just don't do it a few hours before the gym


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## modus (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm a little blown away by how meticulous this all is. I'm learning a lot, especially that I need to really do some homework about my diet. I've tried new diet plans before, but with low income and little time to grocery shop it becomes a major struggle of willpower. On the other hand, I have really good discipline with exercise.

A bit of a triumph today at the gym! I ran on the treadmill non-stop for 3.25 miles, only speed-walking for a quarter of it to get my heart rate down. My heart rate was between 155-185 the whole time and afterward I was NOT tired. It was weird. At the 30-minute mark I hit 3 miles exactly, so my next step should probably be to pick up the pace a little more.

The one barrier you guys mentioned that I'm really seeing as a big problem is _sleep_. I have piss poor sleeping habits because I game and all the jobs I get are the late night shift because I have classes during the day. Add homework and exams into the equation and you've got a perfect mess.

But that's life for most people. I'm amazed at people who hold jobs, go to school full time, and look amazing. I've seen them on campus and I just don't know how they do it.

Thanks a ton for the help so far, guys. I'm reading every word posted and already seeing progress.


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## Zen Mechanics (Aug 3, 2007)

exobyte said:


> I'm a little blown away by how meticulous this all is. I'm learning a lot, especially that I need to really do some homework about my diet. I've tried new diet plans before, but with low income and little time to grocery shop it becomes a major struggle of willpower. On the other hand, I have really good discipline with exercise.
> 
> A bit of a triumph today at the gym! I ran on the treadmill non-stop for 3.25 miles, only speed-walking for a quarter of it to get my heart rate down. My heart rate was between 155-185 the whole time and afterward I was NOT tired. It was weird. At the 30-minute mark I hit 3 miles exactly, so my next step should probably be to pick up the pace a little more.
> 
> ...


Genetics is 90% of the game. Some people can look amazing with out even trying, others can bust their *** in the gym follow a diet to the t and still not look that great. Btw if you are looking to gain muscle doing cardio is counter-productive. Will just make it harder to put on muscle and will mean you have to eat even more..


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## modus (Apr 27, 2011)

I guess so, since it boosts metabolism... but it improves my mood way more than lifting. And honestly, getting rid of that belly padding is the bigger priority for me. After that's out of the way, I doubt building up muscle mass will take long, according to my research.

On a different note, does anyone know if having a rounded bulge on the upper abdomen is normal? It's not a fatty buldge.. it's something solid and round, and when I push down on it, it forces my lungs to exhale harder than pushing on my lower abs. It's difficult to describe.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

exobyte said:


> I want to lose a little weight and gain muscle at the same time, but I'm confused because I don't see how that's possible if you have to consume more calories to build muscle and consume less calories to lose weight.
> 
> The only fat I have left is on my entire ab region, just enough padding to look bad but holy **** is it stubborn. Thing is, I have a very long way to go with muscle building so I really wanna hit that hard but that ab fat just has to go!
> 
> ...


1. just take fish oil capsules every day. have at least one spoon of udo's oil per day too
2. its ok to eat things like ice cream once per week as a cheat meal. try and eat healthy 6 days per week and then on the 7th day you can replace a couple of your healthy meals with cheat meals 
3. you dont have to use ONLY free weights. just make the majority of your exercises free weight exercises. SOME machine work is ok 
4. its irrelevant to fat loss or muscle gain

if you continue on a fat loss phase and get rid of the fat around your waste you will just gain it back when you try to add muscle

if you struggle to get rid of that last bit of fat around your stomach i'd suggest CARB CYCLING.

its usually a bad idea to try and gain muscle and lose fat at the same time but it is possible if you follow the correct guidelines. however it takes a lot of dedication and you have to be very strict. and i must add that results are very minimal. for example you wont lose a lot of fat and gain a lot of muscle. you could lose a lot of fat and add a little bit of muscle for example. best way to gain and lose at same time is to follow the holy grail body transformation by tom venuto


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Quantic said:


> I've talked quite a bit with someone who was training to be a sports nutritionist. He said if I wanted to stay the same weight but build muscle (aka losing fat at the same time) to just eat exactly how many calories I burn. If I eat more calories, then I'd gain weight (mostly in muscle), if I eat less calories then I'd lose weight (mostly in fat). But either way, if you are working out regularly and eat right then your body will be building up muscle while breaking down fat.
> 
> One important thing I remember is that your muscles want to use glycogen for fuel if there's any available. When you are doing cardio, your body also would like to use glycogen. The trick is to lift weights first which depletes your muscles of stored glycogen, THEN do cardio. Since there is no glycogen available for fuel your body is forced to burn fat instead.
> 
> ...


i dont mean to be rude but thats ridiculous. saying that you need to keep calories at maintainance level in order to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time is ridiculous

if you keep cals at maintainance you'll do neither. you'l gain NO muscle and lose NO fat (its just basic maths. if you need to burn more calories than you consume in order to lose fat then you WONT lose fat if your calories are at maintenance. and if you need to consume more calories than you burn in order to gain muscle then you WONT gain muscle if calories are at maintenance)

it's ridiculous to say that you can lose fat with calories at maintenance. its also ridiculous to say you can gain muscle with calories at maintenance. but to go one further and say you can achieve BOTH fat loss and muscle gain at the same time with calories at maintenance is beyond ridiculous !!!! its down right stupid

again no offense but i think it needed to be said


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## Ready To Freak Out (Jul 20, 2010)

Zen Mechanics said:


> There is no such thing as spot reduction of fat. Working an area paticularly hard will not make you lose more fat from that area, where you store fat is entirely genetic.


So you believe that if you benchpress your max every day but did nothing else, this would lean you down equally in your upper and lower body?:roll


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## Ready To Freak Out (Jul 20, 2010)

paulyD said:


> i dont mean to be rude but thats ridiculous. saying that you need to keep calories at maintainance level in order to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time is ridiculous
> 
> if you keep cals at maintainance you'll do neither. you'l gain NO muscle and lose NO fat (its just basic maths. if you need to burn more calories than you consume in order to lose fat then you WONT lose fat if your calories are at maintenance. and if you need to consume more calories than you burn in order to gain muscle then you WONT gain muscle if calories are at maintenance)
> 
> ...


um Before you call Quantic ridiculous, you may wish to actually do some research. You might not lose WEIGHT while consuming your calorie maintenance level, but you can most definitely lose FAT by converting it to muscle (ie. GAIN MUSCLE). And you're right, it is simple math; you were just wrong about whether or not you understood it.


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## CreamCheese (Jul 21, 2010)

You should do both. Cardio primarily removes the fat surrounding the muscle that hides the muscle. Strength exercises strengthen, tone and sculpt the muscle. If you have fat surrounding the areas of your muscles, then doing simply strength training exercises may bulk you even further because you build muscle AND have fat...which is why cardio is necessarily to burn fat faster and better. However, strength training is almost always recommended along with cardio because muscle burns fat faster than without built muscles and it would require much less time to have your muscles show when your fat is burned off than to wait to have the fat burned off then do muscle. 

Think about it this way too: if you were doing rigorous cardio, lost weight, and then decided to stop cardio and build muscle, the stopping of the cardio would probably bring you back out of shape again due to you not having a rigorous fat-burning exercise in your routine. Like I said, muscle can burn fat, but not as rigorously as cardio can. So you pretty much need to do both at the same time. 

Also, remember that fat does not turn into muscle. Muscle and fat are two separate things, the elimination of fat is what makes the muscles more prominent since muscles sit beneath fat.


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## modus (Apr 27, 2011)

Ready To Freak Out said:


> So you believe that if you benchpress your max every day but did nothing else, this would lean you down equally in your upper and lower body?


He's talking about fat loss, which happens in a certain order by area depending on how an individual is genetically programmed. I've read that usually the abdomen is the last to go.



CreamCheese said:


> Think about it this way too: if you were doing rigorous cardio, lost weight, and then decided to stop cardio and build muscle, the stopping of the cardio would probably bring you back out of shape again due to you not having a rigorous fat-burning exercise in your routine. Like I said, muscle can burn fat, but not as rigorously as cardio can. So you pretty much need to do both at the same time.


Right, I forgot that muscle burns fat so much faster because after cardio the body requires more resources to upkeep the muscle.

By the way, I wanted to mention an amazing site for planning diets. It's called Wolfram Alpha.. you just type in what you are going to eat as a math equation, such as "1 turkey sandwhich + 1 orange juice" and it spits out every bit of nutritional data. You can specify how much or little of a food too. Check it out: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+turkey+sandwhich+%2B+1+orange+juice

P.S. what's the cheapest way to pile on protein intake?


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Ready To Freak Out said:


> um Before you call Quantic ridiculous, you may wish to actually do some research. You might not lose WEIGHT while consuming your calorie maintenance level, but you can most definitely lose FAT by converting it to muscle (ie. GAIN MUSCLE). And you're right, it is simple math; you were just wrong about whether or not you understood it.


thats even more ridiculous!!! convert fat into muscle ? that's impossible


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Ready To Freak Out said:


> So you believe that if you benchpress your max every day but did nothing else, this would lean you down equally in your upper and lower body?:roll


you lose fat by being in a calorie defecit. when in a deficit you will lose fat but you cannot taget specific areas of your body to lose it from. doing only bench press wont necessarily make you lose fat off your chest

your body will decide were it pulls the fat from when in a deficit. it might decide to burn the fat from your face 1st. then your thighs , then your abbs. you have no say in the matter . all you can do yourself is get yourself in a calorie deficit and then see were you lose the fat from on your body


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## PuRex (Mar 19, 2011)

Get on a caloric deficit diet and do both weights and cardio and you can't go wrong. When you do weights don't neglect any muscle groups. I've been doing this for the last 3 months to lose weight. Went from 180lbs to what I'm at now which is 155 and looking muscular and got that nice V shape. Still got a small layer of fat around the abdomen but that is soon to go. I can feel my abs right below it.


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## OpiodArmor (Jun 15, 2011)

lol why do people who clearly don't know what their talking about act all smart-assy on subjects like this? God the arrogance.

But really it don't matter if you do them at the same time or not. In fact if you can I say do them both at the same time; when you do cardio your main goal should be to improve your heart, which will end up helping you with weight training anyways.

When you gain lean muscle it increases the rate of your metabolism since it costs more calories to maintain muscle then fat. When you do cardio it will increase your metabolism from the point that you begin the cardio activity until about 4-6 hours post cardio activity, however after that no more extra calories will be consumed.

So like I say it really don't matter. Do weight training till your sore all over then do cardio on days that your body is rebuilding. Thats what I do.


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## jimbo00 (Nov 28, 2010)

its always the same person in all these threads, which makes it more amusing.

The internet is great, it allows people to read up on things then become experts without ever having done whatever it is there an expert in....................=)



OpiodArmor said:


> lol why do people who clearly don't know what their talking about act all smart-assy on subjects like this? God the arrogance.


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## Ready To Freak Out (Jul 20, 2010)

exobyte said:


> He's talking about fat loss, which happens in a certain order by area depending on how an individual is genetically programmed. I've read that usually the abdomen is the last to go.


This is a theory that I will eat my left shoe if it hasn't been disproven within ten years, much like stretching after warmups, set weight points, and the plethora of other theories in sports medicine that have fallen by the wayside over the years.


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## modus (Apr 27, 2011)

Ready To Freak Out said:


> This is a theory that I will eat my left shoe if it hasn't been disproven within ten years, much like stretching after warmups, set weight points, and the plethora of other theories in sports medicine that have fallen by the wayside over the years.


What's your basis?

By the way, might wanna go shopping for a new left shoe.


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## Ready To Freak Out (Jul 20, 2010)

exobyte said:


> What's your basis?
> 
> By the way, might wanna go shopping for a new left shoe.


My own personal experience, as well as that of another boxer at my gym, as well as the people scattered throughout BB forums on the internet wondering why if isolated fat loss is supposed to be impossible they seem to have isolated fat loss. Not to mention it's just logical to think that if you work the crap out of one area of your body, that area will have more muscle and less fat than other areas of your body that you don't work as hard.

I could be wrong, there could be some other explanation for why I lost fat at a much faster rate on my lower body than the rest of my body when I was doing my lower body routine but slacking on the rest. And there could be some explanation for the personal experiences of others too. But, like I alluded to in my previous post, sports medicine is an extremely dynamic field and the prevailing opinions and "facts" are constantly changing, so I don't feel too out there for daring to disagree with the prevailing opinion on isolated fat loss.



jimbo00 said:


> its always the same person in all these threads, which makes it more amusing.
> 
> The internet is great, it allows people to read up on things then become experts without ever having done whatever it is there an expert in....................=)


Um...if you're talking about me, a) I don't really post in too many of the NSE threads at all, so that's a massive exagerration, and b) I'm a national-level athlete, but sure, I probably don't know anything about fitness.


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## modus (Apr 27, 2011)

Alright, fair enough.. but in my personal experience it didn't work like that. A few years back when I wanted to lose weight, I just ran, nothing else. I thought my legs would get toned up or something but the first fat to go was from _my face_. I lost almost 50 pounds when it was all said and done but to this day my legs are still a little chubby.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

Isolated fat loss as far as consistent spot reduction from working one specific area hard does not work like that as fat sources can be pulled from several areas of the body and is a more systematic adaption. That is a fitness myth (toning) that has a hard time dying because people feel the blood pump to that area, get capillary density adaptions, and can increase hypertrophy in the area which can affect bf%. There is a lot of variables like glycogen storage and fluid fluctuations as well.

Directing pulling significant fat from a trouble area and the concept of toning is usually misused. I've been a member of bb.com for years, fun site but there is a lot of bro science that you have to sort out to find users with a strong scientific foundation.


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## jimbo00 (Nov 28, 2010)

Ready To Freak Out said:


> Um...if you're talking about me, a) I don't really post in too many of the NSE threads at all, so that's a massive exagerration, and b) I'm a national-level athlete, but sure, I probably don't know anything about fitness.


not talking about you =)


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## BadVibes (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeah i was going through the dame thing. I first lost weight then started drinking protein shacks for muscle.. still working on the muscle part. HA!!


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## Zen Mechanics (Aug 3, 2007)

Ready To Freak Out said:


> So you believe that if you benchpress your max every day but did nothing else, this would lean you down equally in your upper and lower body?:roll


Maybe get some knowledge before you bust out the eye rolling hey? Outside of yourself and few other similarly confused individuals almost everyone else realises spot reduction is a myth. Show me one Pro BBer who does million of crunches to try and get that last bit of fat off their abs heh.. None bother, they just do cardio and eat in the calorie deficit, where you store your fat is entirely genetic, and no amount of situps will make you lost fat off your abs before anywhere else on your body. Read up on fat cells, how they work, hormones etc. There are also plenty of studies down to disprove 'spot reduciton' in proper controlled environments, not 'me and my friend at the gym'.



Ready To Freak Out said:


> My own personal experience, as well as that of another boxer at my gym, as well as the people scattered throughout BB forums on the internet wondering why if isolated fat loss is supposed to be impossible they seem to have isolated fat loss. Not to mention it's just logical to think that if you work the crap out of one area of your body, that area will have more muscle and less fat than other areas of your body that you don't work as hard.
> 
> I could be wrong, there could be some other explanation for why I lost fat at a much faster rate on my lower body than the rest of my body when I was doing my lower body routine but slacking on the rest. And there could be some explanation for the personal experiences of others too. But, like I alluded to in my previous post, sports medicine is an extremely dynamic field and the prevailing opinions and "facts" are constantly changing, so I don't feel too out there for daring to disagree with the prevailing opinion on isolated fat loss.
> .


Poor misguided folk sometimes trick themselves into beliving they have somehow spot reduced fat by working a specific area, but what is more likely to have happened is that by focusing on one area of the body, they have increased the muscle size of that area, thereby increasing the ratio of muscle/fat making it look like they have lost fat but in reality they still have the same amount of fat, just more muscle, so it looks like they have 'lost fat'/


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## Ready To Freak Out (Jul 20, 2010)

Zen Mechanics said:


> Maybe get some knowledge before you bust out the eye rolling hey? Outside of yourself and few other similarly confused individuals almost everyone else realises spot reduction is a myth. Show me one Pro BBer who does million of crunches to try and get that last bit of fat off their abs heh.. None bother, they just do cardio and eat in the calorie deficit, where you store your fat is entirely genetic, and no amount of situps will make you lost fat off your abs before anywhere else on your body. Read up on fat cells, how they work, hormones etc. There are also plenty of studies down to disprove 'spot reduciton' in proper controlled environments, not 'me and my friend at the gym'.
> 
> Poor misguided folk sometimes trick themselves into beliving they have somehow spot reduced fat by working a specific area, but what is more likely to have happened is that by focusing on one area of the body, they have increased the muscle size of that area, thereby increasing the ratio of muscle/fat making it look like they have lost fat but in reality they still have the same amount of fat, just more muscle, so it looks like they have 'lost fat'/


I regularly take my measurements, so I can assure you I lost size more quickly in my lower body than my upper; I'm not just eyeballing it and saying, 'Hmm..I feel skinnier in my lower body this week.' And usually I lean down more quickly in my upper body than my lower as my glutes and thighs are my problem areas, so it's not explained away by me having a generally slower rate of fat loss on my upper body.

As for the whole body view of fat loss being scientific fact, I have heard the detailed explanation of how it works, and from people who probably have fancier degrees than you; I still disagree. As I mentioned to the OP, sports medicine is particularly bad for what's scientific fact today being null and disproven tomorrow, so I said it before and I'll say it again: I don't feel like a quack for challenging something that's 'scientific' in basis, at least not when it comes to this particular field. For instance, until recently it was well-established in sports medicine journals - academic journals not just Oxygen magazine or the like - that you should stretch after warm up; now they've turned around and said oops, actually that may lead to injury, not prevent it. I'm underwhelmed by the scientific rigour of testing in the field of sports medicine.

But you feel free to go on believing that my anecdotal evidence has no merit, and I'll feel free to go on believing that this is one of the stupider theories out there right now. How's that?


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## Ready To Freak Out (Jul 20, 2010)

jimbo00 said:


> not talking about you =)


Oh. Hi, then :b lol


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Ready To Freak Out said:


> I regularly take my measurements, so I can assure you I lost size more quickly in my lower body than my upper; I'm not just eyeballing it and saying, 'Hmm..I feel skinnier in my lower body this week.' And usually I lean down more quickly in my upper body than my lower as my glutes and thighs are my problem areas, so it's not explained away by me having a generally slower rate of fat loss on my upper body.
> 
> As for the whole body view of fat loss being scientific fact, I have heard the detailed explanation of how it works, and from people who probably have fancier degrees than you; I still disagree. As I mentioned to the OP, sports medicine is particularly bad for what's scientific fact today being null and disproven tomorrow, so I said it before and I'll say it again: I don't feel like a quack for challenging something that's 'scientific' in basis, at least not when it comes to this particular field. For instance, until recently it was well-established in sports medicine journals - academic journals not just Oxygen magazine or the like - that you should stretch after warm up; now they've turned around and said oops, actually that may lead to injury, not prevent it. I'm underwhelmed by the scientific rigour of testing in the field of sports medicine.
> 
> But you feel free to go on believing that my anecdotal evidence has no merit, and I'll feel free to go on believing that this is one of the stupider theories out there right now. How's that?


im not being funny ready to freak out but you thought it was possible to 1) gain muscle and lose fat at the same time with calories at maintenance (ridiculous) and 2) turn fat into muscle ( impossible never mind ridiculous )

so i think it would be best if you just held your hands up and admitted that you are also wrong about spot reduction


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

Well I was going to defend Ready to Freak Out from the criticism, but I do not like the way she dogs on Sports Medicine (which I think she means exercise science) as there is a lot of solid evidence out there with a lot of smart professionals working in the field. Studies with humans populations there is an abundance of variables that can influence results, one study usually does not prove much it may just indicate. You need an overwhelming amount of evidence in most cases. Not all studies are created equal either. 

There is a gap between practical application and scientific peer reviewed studies. That could be stated for a lot of subjects but I think a big issue is that a lot of fitness myths keep getting regurgitated to the general public and there gets to be a bit of misinformation. People work out and have experience so they draw their own conclusions and are confident in what they're doing. There are a lot of elite athletes who necessarily don't understand how adaptions work, they just care about the results. Which brings up...there are a lot of bad personal trainers (not necessarily bad) who are good motivators and get results, but have a poor scientific foundation on how things work and don't educate their clients correctly. A lot of misinformation with nutrition as well, maybe even more so. Leads to confusion and skepticism.


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## jimbo00 (Nov 28, 2010)

I was eating 1500cal (fair bit below maintenance) a day and I was loosing weight and gaining muscle. Not huge amounts of muscle, but enough for people around me to notice. And I wasnt just getting thiner so the muscles looked more defined, there were getting bigger.

I eat double that now and see much better results.. but still.. there was some noticable gain..

From what I've seen people who loose weight either end up looking skinny, or skinny/muscular. I dare say 90% of the skinny/muscular people are the ones who lift weights while they are loosing weight...



paulyD said:


> im not being funny ready to freak out but you thought it was possible to *1) gain muscle and lose fat at the same time with calories at maintenance (ridiculous)* and 2) turn fat into muscle ( impossible never mind ridiculous )
> 
> so i think it would be best if you just held your hands up and admitted that you are also wrong about spot reduction


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## rickthegreat (Dec 22, 2008)

Just thought I'd mention stress. If you're stressed your body likes to store and keep I guess belly fat right? Sounds tough in exobyte's case but I've seen pills around claiming they help with that.


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## modus (Apr 27, 2011)

Everyone has stress. I doubt those of us with SA suffer any more or less stress than the next person, just a different kind for different reasons.

But anyway, I'm already feeling stronger. I don't think I really _look _stronger though.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

jimbo00 said:


> I was eating 1500cal (fair bit below maintenance) a day and I was loosing weight and gaining muscle. Not huge amounts of muscle, but enough for people around me to notice. And I wasnt just getting thiner so the muscles looked more defined, there were getting bigger.
> 
> I eat double that now and see much better results.. but still.. there was some noticable gain..
> 
> From what I've seen people who loose weight either end up looking skinny, or skinny/muscular. I dare say 90% of the skinny/muscular people are the ones who lift weights while they are loosing weight...


when you lose fat you look more muscular. it doesnt mean youve ACTUALLY gained muscle though. the only way to know if you did gain any muscle is to test your body fat % and your lean mass

if you actually did gain some muscle then there is a couple of explanations for this 1) beginners can sometimes get lucky and gain some muscle whilst losing fat cos their bodys arent used to training 2) being genetically gifted

those 2 circumstances are the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE though. its usually impossible to gain and lose at same time but there are a few circumstances , like i explained, were the impossible can be achieved. but these circumstances are very rare


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## jhu1114 (Jun 26, 2011)

This is from my personal experience. TRY TO BUILD MUSCLE FIRST! That way it will increase your metabolism (making you fee less hungry) 

Do strength training like 3-4 times a week while doing cardio 5 days a week to burn fat. Have your rest days as well.  Best of luck to you.


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