# Girls with SA vs. Guys with SA in terms of desirability



## herb the dolphin (Mar 26, 2010)

At the risk of sounding sexist, I'm going to say that I've noticed that the general trend on this site is that the girls with SA seem to have been a lot more successful romantically than the guys...

I think this is because girls can get away with SA and not being so capable in real life situations, because it just makes the guy feel like he's in charge and he's 'the man'... but most girls out there seem to want a guy who will not necessarily 'take charge', but basically be assertive and confident. I don't think too many girls in the world want a guy who shies away from real life... they exist, but they're a minority. 

All of my relationships, crap as they have been, wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been able to struggle and assert myself or at least do something impressive in order to attract attention. In each case, I've had to initiate everything... and usually I try to move fast before I lose my confidence, or before we end up in a social situation where I can't really function properly... so that she doesn't figure out how many issues I have... and it sounds like a totally jerky thing to say, but this often means I end up going for girls I don't really care about, because I feel like I'm tricking these girls into thinking I'm a decent, confident person when I'm really not. I hate doing this, but it's the only way I can actually get any kind of intimacy in my life. 

If I really like them I feel like I need to be honest and then when that happens they always lose interest... or I have to keep pretending to be confident and assured and comfortable (even though it's impossible to hide in many situations, which is also when it all falls apart). But even if I manage to avoid those situations for an extended period of time, I still have to maintain that whole 'I'm a good person' thing and it gets too hard and eventually the girl, whoever she is, just isn't worth it anymore... 

I tried the whole gay thing just recently... and it was okay because things always move faster and you don't really have to do anything, or be confident or assertive. I guess I like the gay thing but it's not always as nice as being with a girl-- but now I feel like going back to women would be hard because I feel dirty and tainted inside... but I guess I kind of always felt that way anyway. 

So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that all of the people on this site who are complaining about not getting laid are male...


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## XxArmyofOnexX (Aug 13, 2007)

*greatly hopes this thread survives long enough to get some discussion going before some "report post" trigger happy people complain to mods*

People will say that's how life is, and there's nothing we can really do but just deal with it. Better ourselves instead of getting hung up on the differences in terms of who is more successful. Fake it till you make it... or something like that, I can't really form anything of my own, just thought this is an interesting thread (all my "thinking" has only what others have said as various sources (and not in person either >.>), nothing from personal experience...)


This should be interesting opcorn


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## Magaly (Mar 8, 2010)

herb the dolphin said:


> I think this is because girls can get away with SA and not being so capable in real life situations, because it just makes the guy feel like he's in charge and he's 'the man'... but most girls out there seem to want a guy who will not necessarily 'take charge', but basically be assertive and confident. I don't think too many girls in the world want a guy who shies away from real life... they exist, but they're a minority.


I think everyone is more attracted to people who are confident in themselves. I've pushed people away by being un-confident and shying away from life. yes, even guys who initially showed an interest in me. Maybe girls are approached more often, but it still takes some effort to keep a person's interest. My shyness _has_ been a turnoff in the past.



herb the dolphin said:


> So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that all of the people on this site who are complaining about not getting laid are male...


Or we just don't talk about it as much?...I don't. I keep my sexual frustration to myself. I thought of posting about it once, but I felt weird so I didn't. I know what I have to do to find someone. gain some self-confidence, stop being phobic.


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## drealm (Jul 7, 2009)

herb the dolphin said:


> At the risk of sounding sexist, I'm going to say that I've noticed that the general trend on this site is that the girls with SA seem to have been a lot more successful romantically than the guys...


I really wish the relationship section was deleted all together. Every time I enter here I'm reminded of this fact and I just become more bitter, angry and jealous. When a woman drops the boyfriend bomb I bash my head into the keyboard. It's very likely that at least one of the 30,000 SAS visitors will become the next George Sodini.


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## izzy (Dec 18, 2009)

herb the dolphin said:


> All of my relationships, crap as they have been, wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been able to struggle and assert myself or at least do something impressive in order to attract attention. In each case, I've had to initiate everything... and usually I try to move fast before I lose my confidence, or before we end up in a social situation where I can't really function properly... so that she doesn't figure out how many issues I have... and it sounds like a totally jerky thing to say, but this often means I end up going for girls I don't really care about, because I feel like I'm tricking these girls into thinking I'm a decent, confident person when I'm really not. I hate doing this, but it's the only way I can actually get any kind of intimacy in my life.


Despite my lack of confidence, I've initiated 2/3 of my relationships (and they're the only ones that have mattered).



herb the dolphin said:


> So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that all of the people on this site who are complaining about not getting laid are male...


If I have complaints, I don't feel comfortable enough to talk about it with anyone, even online on this site...


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I think both shy men and women have problems with dating, but different issues when it comes to dating. Shy men have problems getting into relationships, but when in relationships, tend to keep them. Shy women have problems keeping relationships once in them, because they get so insecure that they push the guy away. Or they end up in abusive and controlling relationships. 

So it's hard for both genders, but in different ways. Would I rather be a shy girl? No, not really. Because shyness is an unattractive trait, no matter what gender you are.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

I haven't heard of too many straight guys "trying the gay thing" and feeling dirty. What do you mean by this?


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

VanDamMan said:


> I haven't heard of too many straight guys "trying the gay thing" and feeling dirty. What do you mean by this?


I think it's more about feeling like you're going against your natural feelings. I know, if I tried to have sex with another guy, I'd feel disgusting...not because the guys were gay, but because I'm not. I'm only attracted to women.


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## STKinTHEmud (Jun 21, 2009)

herb the dolphin said:


> All of my relationships, crap as they have been, wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been able to struggle and assert myself or at least do something impressive in order to attract attention. In each case, I've had to initiate everything... and usually I try to move fast before I lose my confidence, or before we end up in a social situation where I can't really function properly... so that she doesn't figure out how many issues I have... and it sounds like a totally jerky thing to say, but this often means I end up going for girls I don't really care about, because I feel like I'm tricking these girls into thinking I'm a decent, confident person when I'm really not. I hate doing this, but it's the only way I can actually get any kind of intimacy in my life.


Totally agree on the jerky thing. It seems we have to make compromises within ourselves to get some attention, any attention.


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## april showers (Jun 27, 2009)

> So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that all of the people on this site who are complaining about not getting laid are male...


Actually, I think it's probably gender roles playing a part. It's more socially acceptable for guys to express how much they want to get laid and express their feelings of sexual frustration, than girls. Being told that you're not supposed to show any sexual desire lest you get labeled as a "****", tends to make it harder for girls to be willing to open up on that.

I think in different ways SA can hurt both genders alot. Even if a girl with SA does attract a guy, there's a major risk that it's a guy who can sense the shy-ness/insecurity and is willing to take advantage of that. You're right though, at the end of the day it's all about confidence. Not only with guys but with girls too. I know so many girls who are less attractive than me, but are able to draw in more guys than I can ever hope of attracting becaue they are so confident and sure of themselves.


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## Peter Attis (Aug 31, 2009)

This thread is gonna get locked, so before it does, I just want to say that, I think, outside this board, there isn't a huge disparity between males with SA in relationships and females with SA in relationships. That said, I think females have a better chance of starting a relationship, but that's only if they keep their SA a secret. Because without knowledge of SA, she'll just be seen as an introvert, and according to _The Introvert Advantage_, female introverts have a better chance at relationships than male ones.


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## TRENNER (Sep 21, 2009)

WintersTale said:


> I think both shy men and women have problems with dating, but different issues when it comes to dating. Shy men have problems getting into relationships, but when in relationships, tend to keep them. Shy women have problems keeping relationships once in them, because they get so insecure that they push the guy away. Or they end up in abusive and controlling relationships.
> 
> So it's hard for both genders, but in different ways....


Yes, I basically agree with your analysis. Shy guys have a harder time getting a date, getting that first girlfriend, etc. However, their prior frustration and loneliness often motivates them to be better boyfriends and husbands than guys who had it easier. I know it is the case for me. Also, the women who give shy guys a chance tend to have better values than those who won't.

By contrast, shy girls will have an easier time getting in a relationship. The catch for them is that their low self esteem often leads them to stay with jerks.

However, all this does not apply to the most extreme cases of social phobia. With the most extreme cases, I'd say members of both sexes are equally cut off.


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## SilentWitness (Dec 27, 2009)

Good observation...sooooooo where do we go from here?


opcorn


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

The thing is once you are in a relationship there are many expectations. My ex-boyfriends all expected me to hang out and socialize with their friends and family. I really hated this and tried to tell him that I only want to be around him with no success. Very often the friends and family didn't like me much cause of my "aloofness" and that just made things more difficult.


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## BetaBoy90 (Jan 5, 2010)

:mum**** YOU S.A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SusanStorm (Oct 27, 2006)

^
I agree with that one Betaboy.

I think that women might be more desirable when it comes to being shy and modest,since men often are seen as the ones that should pick up men and be confident,but then again also not.
When it comes to myself I've noticed that some men think I'm a push over and a door mat, but I'm not at all.They just assume that I am since I am as shy as I am.

I find shy men very attractive.I always notice them,they stand out in a crowd in a positive way for me and I always wonder what hides underneath that shyness 
But I think it depends.Some people seem to have a lot of problems with shy people,but I say whatever.There are people out there that will find you attractive.


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## strawberryjulius (Jun 28, 2009)

Peter Attis said:


> This thread is gonna get locked, so before it does, I just want to say that, I think, outside this board, there isn't a huge disparity between males with SA in relationships and females with SA in relationships. That said, I think females have a better chance of starting a relationship, but *that's only if they keep their SA a secret*. Because without knowledge of SA, she'll just be seen as an introvert, and according to _The Introvert Advantage_, female introverts have a better chance at relationships than male ones.


Maybe I'm just an exception to this rule but my boyfriend knew about my SA before we were even in a relationship. We've been together for over a year now. It could be due to the fact that I always put on a tough face and pretend there's nothing wrong because I hate feeling weak. I don't know. :b


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*hmm*

We've got people talking about what is and what is not "socially acceptable". Well, that which is "socially acceptable" differs from country to country- as does society in a lot of cases- so that which is "socially acceptable" fluctuates so how are the people talking about what is and what is not "socially acceptable" making their judgements? Or their assumptions.

Also, the "shy guys" and "shy girls" thing turned up again. Oh come on. Yes, because a person is defined by being shy in some situations. Erm...nope. Set a "shy person" on fire and seem how shy they are about asking someone to put the fire out. People are complex and fluid.

Shyness is not generally an unattractive trait and it's not generally an attractive trait either. Because attraction remains in the eye of the beholder. So it's really about what the individual finds attractive about another person. But I will say that there's this girl I know who seems "shy" in certain situations and I can't get her out of my head so. I'm attracted to her because of who she is as a person but her "shyness" in some situations isn't putting me off.

And we've also got people on here confidently talking about their "lack of confidence" and confidently asserting that they have to "fake confidence". No, you have confidence. It's about connecting with it.


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## Hello22 (Feb 10, 2010)

I am very unsucessful in relationships - i can barely remember my last one. I am hopeless at picking up signals that a guy is interested and then run a mile cos i get so embarressed with the way i deal with these situations. 
I remember at Christmas, a load of (about 30 of us) decided to do a pub crawl and it ended up that 3 lads in the group fancied me. They were all lovely looking guys, and one of them in particular was extremely hot. He bought me a drink(s), etc, but because i was so shy and awkward when the drink wore off, i never contacted him again. *sighs*


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## herb the dolphin (Mar 26, 2010)

joinmartin said:


> We've got people talking about what is and what is not "socially acceptable". Well, that which is "socially acceptable" differs from country to country- as does society in a lot of cases- so that which is "socially acceptable" fluctuates so how are the people talking about what is and what is not "socially acceptable" making their judgements? Or their assumptions.


I think it's safe to say we're talking about Western society here. And like it or not, every society has its own value system in place-- and that system is reinforced by the media and by interactions in daily life. If you think that extroverts are generally less successful than introverts in romance, work, and generally functioning in ANY society, then I'd like to hear all about it with lots of examples to back up your claims.



joinmartin said:


> Set a "shy person" on fire and seem how shy they are about asking someone to put the fire out. People are complex and fluid.


How about we put a shy person in a room full of strangers having a good time and see how shy they are about asking someone to open the door so they can get the @%$^ out of there as soon as they possibly can?

If I was on fire, I don't think I'd be asking anyone to put it out... I think I would probably try to take care of that myself.



joinmartin said:


> Shyness is not generally an unattractive trait and it's not generally an attractive trait either. Because attraction remains in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> And we've also got people on here confidently talking about their "lack of confidence" and confidently asserting that they have to "fake confidence". No, you have confidence. It's about connecting with it.


First you say everyone is complex and fluid, then you say everyone always has confidence about all things. Sounds to me like you're being pretty selective with what everyone is 'complex and fluid' with.

Confidence often depends on the situation. If you didn't know how to drive a car, you wouldn't be confident about that, but maybe you're a great public speaker and would have no problems getting up in front of a huge audience. Just like if you know for sure you can do things in life then you can confidently say that that is true because you've experienced it.

Also-- I don't have issues with someone asking questions about things they aren't clear on, but you're coming off as really condescending and even worse you don't even seem to know what you're talking about... show some humility and people will stop wanting to prove you wrong and maybe even listen to you.


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## BreakingtheGirl (Nov 14, 2009)

Invisible_girl said:


> ^
> 
> I find shy men very attractive.I always notice them,they stand out in a crowd in a positive way for me and I always wonder what hides underneath that shyness


Yes


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> Set a "shy person" on fire and seem how shy they are about asking someone to put the fire out. People are complex and fluid.


this makes no sense in this context. Life threatening situations and day to day, very difficult but not life threatening. Are you saying we should approach anxiety-provoking situations as if our very lives depended on them?

I find comparisons like this very unhelpful. this is not the first time I've seen you use them. and a person on fire is unlikely to be acting "complex". Most people would want to stop themselves from being on fire. Naturally. really, how is this supposed to change anyone's perception.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

It's true that in Western society that shy men have a raw deal, but in Asian cultures, it's actually okay to be shy. In fact, Asian women usually find shyness an attractive trait in men, which is why you see a lot of Asian women/American men couples. 

I think it has something to do with the way they were raised. American men are raised to be this 'tough, macho, show no emotions and be hard as a rock' stereotype. Being shy and having social anxiety doesn't really work for American men.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

leonardess said:


> this makes no sense in this context. Life threatening situations and day to day, very difficult but not life threatening. Are you saying we should approach anxiety-provoking situations as if our very lives depended on them?
> 
> I find comparisons like this very unhelpful. this is not the first time I've seen you use them. and a person on fire is unlikely to be acting "complex". Most people would want to stop themselves from being on fire. Naturally. really, how is this supposed to change anyone's perception.


Leonardess, my understanding is that JoinMartin was referring to taking risks. Basically, if you feel lonely, ask someone out so you're not lonely. Yeah, better said than done.

I didn't find the comparison helpful either, but I usually take JM's advice with a pinch of salt. I've never seen him post anything helpful, it's mostly a bunch of rubbish aimed at making you feel better (but makes you feel worse in response.)


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## herb the dolphin (Mar 26, 2010)

You know, I didn't really think that girls were so different from guys deep down inside, I was more thinking about social expectations... but now hearing all of these posts from the girls I'm starting to think that it really isn't as different as it seems and I suppose that girls also need to make their inner feelings known or they come off as not being interested-- I think this happens to me too, actually. 

I guess the difference is I know what it's like to be a guy but not what it's like to be a girl... so maybe my impressions are biased because I keep seeing myself having a hard time with this stuff and then I see girls who don't seem to... I really hadn't thought about how it's harder for girls to talk about sex and such for fear of how people will react. It would be interesting to know more about what girls are really thinking with this... I guess I kinda know because I have been with a guy but I don't think it's exactly the same thing, because gay guys don't tend to have the barriers that men and women have between each other. 

I have to admit I really don't have many female friends (well, I don't really have any friends, actually), but I wish I did because then I would sort of know more about this stuff... but most of the female friends I have had in the past haven't had any trouble with relationships whatsoever, so I just kind of assumed that was something that girls tended to be good at... but I guess these girls weren't necessarily 100 percent shy either. 

Also... someone asked about my not feeling so good about my experimenting with the 'other side'... I think it could have been because I have issues with that and those issues come into conflict with my urges, or curiosities or whatever. I suppose deep down I know it's not that different, but ultimately I think I still see man/woman sex as something good and wholesome and man/man sex as being kinda twisted. 

It sounds screwed up and I'm aware of that but it's true... I get really excited about the sex and then it's never really as good as the anticipation and then it's over and I get angry and guilty... actually the guy I was seeing before now was kind of champ to put up with all the nastiness I would throw at him after getting together... which is especially weird because of how nice I am leading up to it. But with girls I always feel happy before and after... but I guess during is never as great as it should be. 

Anyway, that's a candid candid epic of a post for everyone... don't let it be said that I have anxieties about being completely open to a bunch of strangers online, but I suppose I sort of feel a connection to everyone here because of the whole anxiety thing. 

Actually it would be super nice to know someone with SA so when I'm in a crowd or at a bar or a party or something and I can't speak or think or move properly, they would understand why instead of just getting upset and wondering what the hell is wrong with me...


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## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> Set a "shy person" on fire and seem how shy they are about asking someone to put the fire out. People are complex and fluid.


If people were that fluid you would have trouble lighting them on fire.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

zookeeper said:


> If people were that fluid you would have trouble lighting them on fire.


I was just talking to someone about this thread being insightful, and here's more proof.

Makes me wonder if some people are witches, though.

As to the topic, I think everyone's experience with any situation is unique, but they do clump together some along sex lines. What I hear above the other sounds in this thread is that sex roles are limiting mother ****ers, and that even knowing that, it's hard not to buy into them.


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## low (Sep 27, 2009)

Men approach 90% of the time in my opinion. So if you are a male and out in a club with SA you probably won't pull. If you are a female with SA out in a club then comparatively for this argument at least it doesn't have a huge effect. The approach / 'first contact' stage will probably happen in a similar frequency to 'normal' individuals, even if it does go horribly wrong afterwards. Over alot of individuals and time this = more females with SA with boyfriends.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

If you like yourself enough, getting "rejected" will matter less and less. Learn to like yourself more and you'll probably be asking yourself why they DON'T like you. Because you don't like certain things about yourself, you think that that is why they wouldn't like you.


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## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

Atticus said:


> Makes me wonder if some people are witches, though.


Only if they weigh the same as a duck.


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## BreakingtheGirl (Nov 14, 2009)

bwidger85 said:


> If you like yourself enough, getting "rejected" will matter less and less. Learn to like yourself more and you'll probably be asking yourself why they DON'T like you. Because you don't like certain things about yourself, you think that that is why they wouldn't like you.


very smart words.

When I feel someone has rejected me (even if they really havent', but I perceive it that way) it hurts so badly because I am not too keen on myself alot of the time. Maybe if I can start appreciating what I am and what I have to offer, other's rejection will just slide off me. I also magnify the things I find unattractive about me, so normally I feel those would be the things I would be rejected for. Like I have a heightened sense of those things as possible negatives and open season for rejection.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

zookeeper said:


> Only if they weigh the same as a duck.


Ah, you are wise in the ways of science!


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

irishK said:


> very smart words.
> 
> When I feel someone has rejected me (even if they really havent', but I perceive it that way) it hurts so badly because I am not too keen on myself alot of the time. Maybe if I can start appreciating what I am and what I have to offer, other's rejection will just slide off me. I also magnify the things I find unattractive about me, so normally I feel those would be the things I would be rejected for. Like I have a heightened sense of those things as possible negatives and open season for rejection.


It is a tough thing to do, but embracing them works pretty well sometimes, and there are other ways...


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## XxArmyofOnexX (Aug 13, 2007)

low said:


> Men approach 90% of the time in my opinion. *So if you are a male and out in a club with SA you probably won't pull.* If you are a female with SA out in a club then comparatively for this argument at least it doesn't have a huge effect. The approach / 'first contact' stage will probably happen in a similar frequency to 'normal' individuals, even if it does go horribly wrong afterwards. Over alot of individuals and time this = more females with SA with boyfriends.


I've been wondering this since yesterday, due to a thread on another forum, but what the hell is pulling in that context?

:um


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

herb the dolphin said:


> So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that all of the people on this site who are complaining about not getting laid are male...


nahh, you just haven't been around long enough to notice that there are many sexually frustrated females here as well.


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## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

XxArmyofOnexX said:


> I've been wondering this since yesterday, due to a thread on another forum, but what the hell is pulling in that context?
> 
> :um


i think it's the same as getting laid... "pulling" is an odd term though. it makes it seem like _"it" _is supposed to be pulled during the act, hah.

i know so many girls who like shy guys, and so many shy guys who are getting girlfriends, so it doesn't make sense to me to hear that girls just want someone who is outgoing and/or confident. the reason why you see more outgoing guys with girlfriends is quite a simple concept - they are more often talking to women, initiating relationships, and reciprocated if interest is shown in them. 
you don't have to be outgoing and confident in order to get in a relationship.... it's more about pushing yourself, taking risks, and not letting opportunities pass you by, even though it can be terrifying.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

low said:


> Men approach 90% of the time in my opinion. So if you are a male and out in a club with SA you probably won't pull. If you are a female with SA out in a club then comparatively for this argument at least it doesn't have a huge effect. The approach / 'first contact' stage will probably happen in a similar frequency to 'normal' individuals, even if it does go horribly wrong afterwards. Over alot of individuals and time this = more females with SA with boyfriends.


Why would someone with SA be in a club?


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## bowlingpins (Oct 18, 2008)

As my health professor in high school used to say, life is not fair. You have to do the best what what you have. You can divide people by gender/talent/wealth etc. I am sure a millionaire has many more opportunities in life than some one who is not but it is pointless to be depressed over this. Just do the best you can, I think the effort you put in in reaching a goal with whatever limited resources and disadvantages you have is more satisfying than getting a good result. for example, I don't care if I bomb a test if I studied as much as I could. Can't comment directly on relationships because I have no experience.


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## sabueed (May 8, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> Set a "shy person" on fire and seem how shy they are about asking someone to put the fire out. People are complex and fluid.


I would end up saying " Excuse me sir, I am so sorry to bother you, but would you be so kind as to help extinguish the fire that is burning me to death."


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## AJFA88 (Jun 16, 2007)

I find that both genders struggle with SAD equally. It all comes down to the level of stress and anxiety that you're dealing with, and how you cope with it.



bezoomny said:


> Why would someone with SA be in a club?


free beer?


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## mcmuffinme (Mar 12, 2010)

well, it's more of a necessity for men with their libidos, so they're just talking about it more because it's likely more of an issue for them. but trust me, i am a girl, 21 and i have never had a boyfriend, and i'm not horrible looking- i'm just so shy that people don't get to know me and are made anxious by my own anxiety.

having said that, i do feel men have it harder when it comes to having SA strictly because the effects of SA line up more with the female stereotypes as opposed to male ones. 

Don't worry though. There are girls that like quieter guys. My mom and my best friend have this in common. I personally like either, as long as they are intelligent


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## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

Auron said:


> free beer?


I must have been going to the wrong club.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

D11 said:


> Good observation...sooooooo where do we go from here?
> 
> opcorn


****Thread Lock Warning****
Final thought: Men and women are similar, yet different. So is the SA realm. We have areas that are the same, and areas that are different - the dating scene is one of those "complementary" areas. Men want to be the initiator, but women want to be appreciated.

SA Men are NOT George Sodinis in waiting! I see that again, I'll infract, too. Mr. Sodini likely had other issues.


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