# finally revealed: the difference between SA and AVPD



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

avoidant personality disorder (avpd) is charactorized by pervasive *behavioural, emotional and cognitive* avoidance.

*SOCIAL AVOIDANCE*:

an avoidant's fears of social situation evolve around fears of criticism, rejection and ridicule, feelings of inadequacy and the veiw that the self is socially inept or inferior to others.
the manifestation of these fears is usually a result of repeated criticism, ridicule and rejection, in early childhood, from significant others such as peers or parents or both. avoidants beleive that becasue they were rejected, ridiculed and criticised that they are somehow not good enough, not likeable and that they are somehow bad. therefore they have an expectation that all other people will see that they are bad, inferior, unloveable etc... and that they will reject them because of this. this results in the assumption that exposure of the ''real self'' to others or assertive self expression will be met with rejection.

For avoidants it seems dangerous to be in positions were they can be evaluated because their perception of negative or even neutral reactions from others confirms beleifs that they are unlikeable. an avoidants self concious feelings, that are frequently experienced in social situations, is more to do with trying ones best to not express the self or to reveal any part of the real self or to do anything wrong that would result in rejection, ridicule or criticism from others, unlike social phobics who are self concious because they are trying to prevent other people from noticing their physical symptoms of anxiety like blushing, shaking, sweating etc....

An avoidant's social avoidance is usually apparent. less obvious is their cognitive and emotional avoidance, in which they avoid thinking about things that lead to dyphoric feelings. their low tolerance for dyphoria also leads them to distract themselves behaviourally from negative cognitions.

*COGNITIVE, BEHAVIOURAL AND EMOTIONAL AVOIDANCE *

(DYSPHORIA means any negative emotion or uncomfortable feelings e.g anxiety, sadness, irritation, boredom etc....)

Avoidants have a low threshold for dysphoric emotions therefore they avoid any activity that makes them feel uncomfortable. they even avoid _thinking _about anything that produces dysphoric emotions. 
the reason for an avoidants low threshold for dysphoria is usually becasue they hold beleifs that unpleasant thoughts or emotions are intorable ''i can't handle strong feelings'' ''it's bad to feel bad'' ''if i let my feelings become unbottled i'll be overwhelmed'' etc...
the reason for these beleifs usually stems from the person's childhood, a time when these beleifs were relevant i.e a young child experiening all kinds of negative emotions such as rejection, ridicule, worthlesness etc... would obviously be expected to beleive that they cannot handle such things at a young age.

whenever an avoidant begins to feel dysphoric or even begins to have a cognition that will produce a dysphoric emotion they will do something to distract themselves and make them feel better. they may discontinue a task or fail to initiate a task they had planned to do. they may turn on the tv, reach for food or a cigarette, read a book, get up and pace up and down etc... they seek a diversion to push away the uncomfortable thoughts and feelings. in therapy when a therapist is trying to elicit the avoidant patients thoughts and uncomfortable feelings stemming from the avoidants beleifs, patients frequently ''shut down'' by changing the subject, standing up and walking around, or reporting that their minds have ''gone blank''.
this patern of cognitive and behavioural avoidance is reiforced by a reduction in dysphoria and so it eventually becomes ingrained and automatic.

*CONCLUSION

*Avoidant patients hold deep seated negative beleifs about themselves, others, and unpleasant emotional experiences. these beleifs often stem from childhood interactions with rejecting and critical significant persons. they see themselves as inadequate and worthless, others as critical and rejecting, and dysphoric emotions as overwhelming and intorerable.

socially they avoid situations in which other people could get close and discover the ''real'' them.
behaviourally they avoid tasks that would engender thoughts that make them feel uncomfortable.
cognitively they avoid thinking about matters that produce dysphoria. their tolerance for discomfort is low, and they rely on distractions whenever they begin to feel anxious, sad or bored


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

there are a lot of similarities between SA and AVPD but there is also a significant difference

*similarities*

social phobics and avoidants both fear social situations
social phobics and avoidants both feel self concious in social situations
social phobics and avoidants both use safety behaviours in social situations
social phobics and avoidants both avoid social situations

*differences*

*social phobics may only fear one or a few social situations were as avoidants fear every situation to some degree. even situations that they can torelate they are never truly comfortable in them
*even if the social phobia is the generalized type its still not as generalized as avpd because avpd covers everything from situation to self 
*social phobics fear social situations for different reason than the avoidant fears them
*social phobics fear social situations becasue they fear being judged or evaluated negatively by others and they also worry that they will have a panic attack or that they will show physical symptoms such as blushing, shaking etc... wich will prove to be embarrassing
*avoidants fear social situations because they are worried that their real self will be exposed and they they will be rejected as a result of it 
*social phobia is to do with fears about _performing_ socially were as avoidant personality disorder is to do with fears about the _self _and about who you are as a person
*social phobics feel self concious in social situations becasue they are trying to prevent people noticing their symptoms such as blushing, shaking etc...
*avoidants are self concious in social situations cos they are preocupied with trying to hide their real selves, and doing their best not to lose themselves in the moment incase a part of their real self is reveal and that they will be rejected cos their real self is not acceptable 
*social phobics safety behaviours are designed to hide physical symptoms of anxiety
*avoidant's saftey behaviours are designed to hide the real self 
*avoidants also scan their environment in social situations looking for signs of rejection, ridicule and disaproval from others 
*social phobics avoid social situations becasue of fears of having a panic attack or showing signs of anxiety or being embarrased
*avoidants also avoid social situations because of fears of being embarrassed but also becasue of fears of revelaing their selves and being rejected
*low self esteem goes hand in hand with avpd. avoidants have a low sense of self worth and beleive they are inferior and worthless
*social phobics dont nessecarily have low self worth. some might , some might not. social phobia is an anxiety disorder that is seperate to self worth. self worth may become an issue later on due to years of isolation but its a seperate issue to the actaull anxiety. the anxiety may be the casue of it but that doesnt make the slef worth a part of the anxiety
*avoidants not only avoid feared social situations but they also avoid negative feelings and even negative thoughts. they have a low threshold for discomfort/dysphoria. avoidants frequently procrastinate with even trivial everyday tasks such as getting out of bed, starting an exercise regime, brushing their teeth etc... this is not a feature of social anxiety 
*social phobia is a fear of situations
*avpd is also a fear of situation but more so a fear of revealing the self


----------



## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Hey Donovan, well done man that's an excellent side by side comparision of the difference. (Though no doubt someone will start a post next week saying "Hey is there any difference between SA and AvPD? They seem the same to me.") I was trying to illustrate a lot of these points in my post in the other discussion.

It's kind of liberating and even empowering to understand this much about yourself. You can see that the things you've done in your life that bother you, (or probably more accurately, the things you havn't done), are not your fault. You can stop blaming yourself or telling yourself you are not a good person or lazy or whatever, and start doing something about it. One day at a time.


----------



## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

Thanks Donavan, I've done a lot of reading about the differences, and this is probably the best comparison I've seen. I'm definitely an avoidant. This helps me to understand why there are so many situations were my physical anxiety level is low but I'm still afraid and still can't talk or do things. I'm really good at all the kinds of avoidance, haha.

It just sucks because you always hear about personality disorders being lifelong. Great, I'm going to have to suffer with this the rest of my life


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

after discovering the differences and similarities between social phobia and avpd i now realize that i have *both of these disoders together*

ive had avpd since i was 5 years old. i started off my life as a fairly shy child becasue i was born into a family were most of them were shy and some even had social anxiety themselves. i also beleive i inheretited a few shy genes.
then when i was about 4 1/2 i just went through this drastic spell of misary were i encountered negative experience after negative experiecne of rejection, ridicule, criticism and disaproval from the people who were meant to be closest to me and who were meant to love and accept me. every single experience was highly emotionally charged and overwhelming and there must have been about ten of them in a row that seemed to happen in such a short space of time between age 4 1/2 to age 5.

i remeber after that period i just felt lost. i felt like id been clobbered from pillar to post and i didnt know what to do. thats when i must have developed the beleifs that i couldnt handle negative emotions becasue after that i became really lazy. i started procrastinating everything. even when id get out of the shower id just sit there with a towel round me and wait for 20 mins to actaully start rubbing myself dry cos i simply couldnt be bothered cos the cold was too uncomfortable.
from the age of 5 onwards my life was a nightmare. i avoided everything, i just wanted to be on my own all of the time. when i was around people i didnt really feel panic symptoms, ive never had a panic attack in my live and i never used to show signs of anxiety like blushing or anything. i used to just feel really vulnerable and overwhelmed and i would feel really weird and sort of spaced out sort of thing. i did feel anxious too but it was never to the point of panic and there was never any physical symptoms.

growing up i always knew i was odd and different but i just thought that was who i was and thast was my personality. i just thought i was weird and miserable. i never used to like myself at all, i thought everyone was better than me. i never actaully realised that i had a problem that could be changed.

looking back now i can see that i developed social phobia when i was 18. it was around that time that i started blushing frequently. it got out of control and would happen everywere i went. i started to escape sitauation when i felt myself about to blush. i started taking ecstacy every week when i was about 17 so maybe that is what casued the blushing and social phobia
i also developed agoraphobia when i was 18 too. i was a victim in a nightclub incident that shook me up. after that i feared for my safety in situations

it was actually a holiday in aiya napa when i was 18 that made me realise i had a problem. the holiday was spent frequently trying to hide my blushes from people and frequently running from nightclubs back to the safety of my hotel out of a fear for my safety. i remeber being unwilling to attend a booze cruise that i had already paid for becasue i knew if i was on the ship i wouldnt have access of a safe haven to retreat to, like the hotel, if i began to feel unsecure

after the holiday i said to myself ''i cant live like this. somethings not right. everyone else my age had a ball out there and i missed out . i need help''
from that day forward i began looking for help, asked my doctor for meds and a counselling session.
one day i was reading a newspaper about paul mckenna who was curing this womans social phobia so she could attend her wedding day. after reading about all the trouble see faced it sounded exactly like the troubles i had in my on life, so i began thinking maybe ive got social phobia

i went to a bookstore in town and purchased gillian butlers overcoming sa book. that was hard enough. i felt so embarassed buying it that i almost put the book down and ran out of the store. stupid really i havent got a probelm buying anything like that now years later. reading the book made me feel so much better. it desribed me too a tee and i realised 2 things 1)im not wierd or odd , there are millions of people like me out there going through the same thing 2) i can change

from then on i went to see lots of hypnotherapists, counsellors, psychiatrists etc... and took meds but nothing worked mainly becase of a combination of them being useless and me being unwilling to take action
anyway i began printed pages and pages of information off the internet about social phobia and agoraphobia and how to overcome them. and i bought myself loads of books about nlp and hypnosis and i promised myself that i would read all of them and create a plan to finally overcome this problem and change my life .
but i always found myself procrastinating. i was just so lazy. id been that way since as long as i could remmeber. id begin reading and then next minute id say right im going to watch tv or im going the pub (i could handle the pub as long as i was pissed) and ill just do it next week

anyway 3 years past from the age 18-21 and i still hadnt read the books or the information or created a plan to change , never mind actaully took action to face my fears. i now realize why. its becasue im avpd and i have a low tolerance for dysphoria. id wasted those 3 years going out to pubs and clubs and getting pissed out of my skull and taking ecstacy so i could drown out my agoraphobia and sa enough to enjoy myslef a tiny bit. most nights id still find myself hiding in the toilet cubicle in clubs , or running back to the safety of the local pub or my house.

anyway at the age of 21 i lost touch with everyone and became a full time hermit. my mates never really like me anyway and it was inevitable that we'd eventaully drift apart. so apart from my 9-5 job i was stuck at home 24/7 with nowere to go and no excuse not to read my books and and create a plan to change my life. i actually purchased some more books during that time . kabbalh books and personality disorder books.
even though id knew since 18 that i was social and agoraphobic i still felt like something was missing. i couldnt explain why i was so lazy or why i used to fantasize all of the time or why i looked so young or why i felt like i couldnt expresse myself. i told my doctor about these concerns and i think it was him that mentioned personality disorders. it was then that i found out about avoidant personality disorder and i realized the description fitted me even more than sa. that really made my day and finally made me understand everything.
i didnt come across the dysphoria thing back then therefore i still just thought i was lazy

from the age of 21-23 , 2 years i finally managed to read all of my books simply becasue i had so much time on my hands. i still wasted a lot of that time procrstinating and watching tv but it took me 2 years to read the books. 
when i was 23 i was on cloud 9. i understood everything about myself and my past and i no longer hated myself. i knew exactly how to change. i had created a plan in my head of how to change using kabbalah, cbt, nlp and hypnosis and id actually met someone who had achieved what i wanted to achieve, he'd transformed himself from a shy stammerer to a confident man.

so i was 23 and i was ready . all i had to do was take action and face my fears but i kept putting it off and putting it off. im 27 now , im been procrastinating starting my life for 4 [email protected] years , how crazy is that? and its not from a lack of motivation or a lack of desire. i want to change , im willing to do anything , ive got motivation but for some reason i just cant seem to take action, i always, always , always put things off. i hated myslef for the last 4 years cos ive felt so guilty for wasting so much time. i keep calling myself a lazy [email protected]

but now i know why im so ''lazy''. its becasue avoidants avoid uncomfortable feelings and even uncomfortable thoughts. it makes sense now cos i remember in the past trying to use cbt to uncover my irrational beleifs but everytime i tried to do it my mind just went blank and i got irritated and felt the need to just go and watch tv. it was driving me round the bend and up the wall, i just couldnt understand why i couldnt do it. but now i know why

all i have to do is get rid of these irrational beleifs that i have about not being able to handle dysphoirc emotions. and i know exactly how to do that. so i am so optimistic about my future. i know im late to start my life cos im 27 but i dont care , im just happy to be alive and actaully have the chance to change my life. all of the avoidants from history didnt have a chance like we do. there was no cbt or therapy back then , hell there was not even a recognision of the existance on avpd. ive missed out on 27 years but im just so gratefull that ive got the chance to make the most of the rest of my years cos thats a chance that past avoidants did not have. im just grateful to have the chance to start my life now wether it be late or not. i would have prefered sooner but ill take later.

BETTER LATE THAN NEVER !!!!!


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> Hey Donovan, well done man that's an excellent side by side comparision of the difference. (Though no doubt someone will start a post next week saying "Hey is there any difference between SA and AvPD? They seem the same to me.") I was trying to illustrate a lot of these points in my post in the other discussion.
> 
> It's kind of liberating and even empowering to understand this much about yourself. You can see that the things you've done in your life that bother you, (or probably more accurately, the things you havn't done), are not your fault. You can stop blaming yourself or telling yourself you are not a good person or lazy or whatever, and start doing something about it. One day at a time.


exactly. i feel fantastic after making these relevations. things are just looking good


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Whitney said:


> Thanks Donovan, I've done a lot of reading about the differences, and this is probably the best comparison I've seen. I'm definitely an avoidant. This helps me to understand why there are so many situations were my physical anxiety level is low but I'm still afraid and still can't talk or do things. I'm really good at all the kinds of avoidance, haha.
> 
> It just sucks because you always hear about personality disorders being lifelong. Great, I'm going to have to suffer with this the rest of my life


na man you can change its just gonna take a lot more time. you learnt to be avoidant so you can learn to be non avoidant


----------



## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Great story Donovan, I was really sad to hear about your childhood experiences in particular. I did not have it that bad. Glad you're now optimistic, one day at a time man. And by the way, 27? You're still young.

I myself see it as about accepting myself for who I am. You can't make someone ditch their personality and replace it with a new one. But I feel like my sub-conscious has been BS-ing me my whole life without me having a clue. But now I do have a clue, now I'm not buying it. I can't change who I am, but I now that I actually understand who I am, I will decide what I am.


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

Great comparison, Donavan - I'm definitely AvPD based on that as well. And I've also done the procrastinating, avoiding feeling these things. I always tried to intellectualize my way out of my problems, or just use willpower, but they never worked. So I wound up just numbing myself out for long stretches of time (years), avoiding everything entirely.

But the therapy I've been doing since last year (psychodynamic) is more about facing these feelings, especially the ones from childhood. That's where all this stuff started. And those feelings are still there, if you force yourself to confront them. The idea is that if you haven't processed those feelings, they're still ****ing you up.

I feel less worthless now, after actually FEELING these things which I kept avoiding. All this loneliness, and frustration, and sadness, and grief from childhood. They were all just repressed out of conscious awareness. Part of it is the idea of mourning what you lost in childhood. And part of it is allowing yourself to feel things, instead of trying to force yourself through life like a dead person, which is what I've always had to do.

And as I get more in touch with my own emotions, it becomes easier to interact with other people, and things are so much less stressful, because I can relate to them better. There's just more of a connection with people, especially in person. It's quite a different approach than CBT, which tries to get you to realize that you're misinterpreting people's reactions to you. That does happen as well, but fundamentally I think it's these repressed emotions which always screwed up my interactions with people, which caused them to reject me or look at me weirdly, which then gave me social anxiety.



Whitney said:


> It just sucks because you always hear about personality disorders being lifelong. Great, I'm going to have to suffer with this the rest of my life


No, you don't!

And they've made a lot of progress against Borderline Personality Disorder recently, for instance, with Dialectical Behavior Therapy.


----------



## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

anymouse said:


> bravo!! seriously. i have to remind myself of this often-- not a ship tossing about at sea but a decision to be better daily, to at least try!


That's right anymouse, just try instead of not trying. And see how that makes you feel inside.


----------



## Hypnotoad (Jun 10, 2009)

Thanks Donavan, that's a great write up on the comparison. Good to get a clear distinction. 
Based on that, I am definitely both, but I think the avoidant part of my brain is the biggest problem. Now the trick is to fix it...but will never happen


----------



## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

anymouse said:


> thank you..
> 
> you really should be a counselor, you know.
> 
> have you looked up joinmartin yet? he's one in training.


Thank YOU! I have thought about that... But thinking about it didn't seem to make it happen... I wonder why... :time
I will talk to him sometime.


----------



## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

thanks for the explanation. going by that, i think i fit the criteria for AvPD better. i fit the criteria for AvPD perfectly i should say. i know all about hiding the real self and the low tolerance for dysphoria. i just don't feel like my real thoughts and feelings are socially acceptable a lot of the time. can't i be right about that?


----------



## letitrock (Jan 10, 2009)

Yes, thank you Donovan for the comparison of the two disorders, I always thought they were basically the same thing, I thought that if you had social anxiety then that meant you had AVPD as well because I thought that AVPD was just about the simple act of avoiding stuff-I didn't realize that AVPD was about avoiding stuff because of fear that your true self would be rejected- but by that definition, I have AVPD!, in addition to the social anxiety! wow

-this is such a relief, it explains a lot of why I am the way that I am, the whole rejection of true self thing is something that I realized a few years ago but I just thought that it was an extension of the social anxiety, and the putting off of trivial things, and the avoidance of negative feelings, all that fits, and I'd always thought it was just me


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> Great story Donovan, I was really sad to hear about your childhood experiences in particular. I did not have it that bad. Glad you're now optimistic, one day at a time man. And by the way, 27? You're still young.
> 
> I myself see it as about accepting myself for who I am. You can't make someone ditch their personality and replace it with a new one. But I feel like my sub-conscious has been BS-ing me my whole life without me having a clue. But now I do have a clue, now I'm not buying it. I can't change who I am, but I now that I actually understand who I am, I will decide what I am.


thanks. yes the childhood was bad but im actaully grateful for it now, theres no hard feelings about it. there is a great poem ive got somewhere, ill try and find it and post it on here. its about a peapot or a vase or something and the moral of it is that at the beginning when its was getting made it kept getting tossed and turned everywere and then thrown in some oven heated sort of thing and it kept saying stop , stop and then one day it looked in the mirror and realized how beautiful it was and that all of that pain in the beginning had actually shaped what it was today. so that pretty much sums up my own attitude about my life right now, its all good

yer your right 27 is still young. 27 is young for anyone but especially someone like me who looks 17, and acts 17 and has the same desires as a 17 year. i can definately make up for all of my lost years and i have no probelm or shame hanging out with people younger than myself so that i can experience the things that they do

im a bit different to you in the sense that i beleive i can completely change my personality. i mean i learnt to be the way i am and ive got it down to a tee. if i can to do that surely i can learn to do something else


----------



## stripe (Sep 3, 2009)

moooooo


----------



## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

donavan said:


> im a bit different to you in the sense that i beleive i can completely change my personality. i mean i learnt to be the way i am and ive got it down to a tee. if i can to do that surely i can learn to do something else


I hope you're right man. But I can think of two things that you should think about carefully before you "completely change" your personality.

One is that you learnt to be the way you are subconsciously. And it's been in charge of that for 27 years. You're talking about trying to change your personality consciously. The sub is not going to like it. One thing I remember from studying psychology is that the personality is very resilient and resisitant to change. You could be setting yourself up for failure if it doesn't work. Thus frustration, depression, and making it worse.

Second, if you refuse to conceed defeat and try too hard to push this new person you want to be on your sub, you could end up with nasty identity confusion, and dissociative disorder type problems. That would be a bad thing.

I'm not saying this to be a downer I'm saying this out of real concern I would hate to see either of those things happen. If you're confident you know what you need to do then good for you and maybe your plan is perfect for you. I'm just saying be aware of those possibilities.

You just found this new way of thinking about yourself what, yesterday? Give it a couple of weeks at least to sink in and to eyeball that sub before you make your move. He's a damn tricky, resourceful son of a...

Or maybe you don't mean what I'm thinking when you say "completely change my personality". In which case this post was a big fat waste of time. God bless.


----------



## Deathinmusic (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks donavan. Where did you find this information, or is this your own work? What sources did you use? If this information is correct, then my having AvPD instead of SAD is more clear than ever.


----------



## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> I hope you're right man. But I can think of two things that you should think about carefully before you "completely change" your personality.
> 
> One is that you learnt to be the way you are subconsciously. And it's been in charge of that for 27 years. You're talking about trying to change your personality consciously. The sub is not going to like it. One thing I remember from studying psychology is that the personality is very resilient and resisitant to change. You could be setting yourself up for failure if it doesn't work. Thus frustration, depression, and making it worse.
> 
> ...


actually i think you have a valid point regardless of what donavan means. i don't want to be a downer either, which is why i didn't say anything earlier but i think a couple of people in this thread are a little over enthusiastic about these "new revelations". just because someone wrote down a good description of how you tend to behave and why, doesn't mean it's going to be any easier to change than it was before, especially if you were already very familiar with SAD and AvPD.

of course it's great to have enthusiasm and hope for the future, just try not to allow yourselves to get disappointed if you find things aren't any easier. i can't tell you how many times i've thought "aha! this is the revelation i've needed all these years that has been preventing me from realizing my potential. this is why i've been behaving this way" only to look back months and years later and realize that while there may have been small changes, it was really wasn't the saving grace i thought it was going to be.


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

stripe said:


> Thanks for the comparison donavan - very insightful and clearly explained.
> 
> Though there's one part that I don't really get. When outlining the differences it says "*social phobics fear social situations becasue they worry they will have a panic attack or that they will show physical symptoms such as blushing, shaking etc... wich will prove to be embarrassing"
> I have never heard that this was the primary reason for the anxiety in social phobia. For me it is a fear of what other people are thinking, a fear of being judged, that causes the anxiety, not a fear of the anxiety itself.. I thought this was the norm for people with social anxiety, my psych seems to think it's typical. A fear of showing anxiety symptoms would be secondary to that of being judged.
> ...


A. A persistent fear of one or more social or performance situations in which the person is exposed to unfamiliar people or to possible scrutiny by others.​ The individual fears that he or she will act in a way (or show anxiety symptoms) that will be embarrassing and humiliating. ​ B. Exposure to the feared situation almost invariably provokes anxiety, which may take the form of a situationally bound or situationally pre-disposed Panic Attack. ​ C. The person recognizes that this fear is unreasonable or excessive.​ D. The feared situations are avoided or else are endured with intense anxiety and distress.​ E. The avoidance, anxious anticipation, or distress in the feared social or performance situation(s) interferes significantly with the person's normal routine, occupational (academic) functioning, or social activities or relationships, or there is marked distress about having the phobia.​ F. In individuals under age 18 years, the duration is at least 6 months.​ G. The fear or avoidance is not due to direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., drugs, medications) or a general medical condition not better accounted for by another mental disorder...

point A explains about the physical symptoms

yer your right social phobics are scared that they are gonna be judged negatively by other people and that obviously does create anxiety in them and physical symptoms of anxiety. social phobics also fear the actual physical symptoms too. they fear that it will be embarrassing for if other people see the symptoms. and the actaul fear of the physical symptoms can and does create the actaul symptoms too cos when you are trying your hardest to prevent something from happening it usually happens
if youve ever experienced physical symptoms yourself such as blushing or shaking or whatever then im sure that you are aware that exposing these symptoms to others is one of your worst nightmares. 

ive been in the barbers in the past waiting in a que to get my hair cut and ive felt myself about to blush so ive just got up and walked out without getting my hair cut cos the thought of other people noticeing my blushing was unbearable. then ive worried about going to the barbers again out of the fear that i will blush again 


the source was mainly from aron t becks cognitive behavioural therapy for personality disorders books. ive put some of it into my own words but ive also quated beck word for word on a lot of the points. somebody posted a link on the other avpd thread were you can actaully read the book online. i think it was irma who posted the link 
​


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Helpmeunderstand said:


> I hope you're right man. But I can think of two things that you should think about carefully before you "completely change" your personality.
> 
> One is that you learnt to be the way you are subconsciously. And it's been in charge of that for 27 years. You're talking about trying to change your personality consciously. The sub is not going to like it. One thing I remember from studying psychology is that the personality is very resilient and resisitant to change. You could be setting yourself up for failure if it doesn't work. Thus frustration, depression, and making it worse.
> 
> ...


 its ok i dont think anybody can force themselves to have a certain personality. everyone has got a personality. the thing with avpd is that your personality is hidden. you put on an act and hide the real self so that nobody can hurt the real you. when you overcome avpd and you begin to get rid of the conflict and the acting and all that your natural personality is automatically going to show itself.

when i said i beleive i can completely change my personality what i meant was i can completely stop doing what ive always done. i can stop that and when i do stop it then ill naturally be myself . and i know that myself ''the real me'' is completely different to the false personality ive been acting out for the last 27 years. 
most of my life ive had identity issues and i nvever used to know who i was. but in my twenties when i was searching for help, learning things and generally going on a journey of self discovery i found out who i was. i know exactly who i am and what my personailyt is and im extroverted. my personality is completely different than my avpd personality

when avpd's are in social situations they are frozen stiff cos they are so self concious. they are making such an effort not reveal anything, that it just makes it impossible to lose yourself or let yourself go. if you beleive deep down that you are perfectly fine the way that you are then you are going to assume that other people will accept you. and if you asume that others will accept you then your not gonna feel self concious around others. and when your not self concious you will inevitably let yourself go and lose yourslef in the moment which means that you are going to naturally behave as yourself, show your natural personality. you wont have a say over your behaviour or be able to plan how to act, you will just do what comes naturally according to the real personality that you already have

ive seen it done. ive met someone who used to be just like me and he has completely changed into and extrovert with no anxiety.

and the changes im trying to make are definately on an unconcious level. the maihn component of my theraputic approach is nlp and hypnosis which works unconciously . i also use a bit of cbt which is concious too


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Recipe For Disaster said:


> actually i think you have a valid point regardless of what donavan means. i don't want to be a downer either, which is why i didn't say anything earlier but i think a couple of people in this thread are a little over enthusiastic about these "new revelations". just because someone wrote down a good description of how you tend to behave and why, doesn't mean it's going to be any easier to change than it was before, especially if you were already very familiar with SAD and AvPD.
> 
> of course it's great to have enthusiasm and hope for the future, just try not to allow yourselves to get disappointed if you find things aren't any easier. i can't tell you how many times i've thought "aha! this is the revelation i've needed all these years that has been preventing me from realizing my potential. this is why i've been behaving this way" only to look back months and years later and realize that while there may have been small changes, it was really wasn't the saving grace i thought it was going to be.


yer your right it is extremely hard. im not kidding myself i know how hard its gonna be but i still no i can do it


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Deathinmusic said:


> Thanks donavan. Where did you find this information, or is this your own work? What sources did you use? If this information is correct, then my having AvPD instead of SAD is more clear than ever.


 it was mainly from aron t becks book. have a look in the other avpd thread in this sestion cos i think irma posted a link to it and you can actually read it yourself


----------



## Helpmeunderstand (Jul 6, 2010)

Good answer Donavan, I was just worried about what you meant by 'completely change my personality'. It's a great thing to see your optimism, all the best man.


----------



## stripe (Sep 3, 2009)

moo


----------



## milo001 (Nov 26, 2008)

Great post Donovan.Now i know that i had both AVPD and Sa symptoms.But my AVPD is much more severe thatn my SA.I'm trying to hide my real self as well because i fear peoples will reject me for being who i really am.But to the peoples who i'm close with i usually show most of my real personality to them.


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

stripe said:


> Thanks for the reply Donavan.
> 
> Of course I understand that people with SA don't want to show anxiety symptoms in public, that would create further anxiety! I have experienced situations where I couldn't escape people seeing my physical distress, and I really don't want it to happen again  But the anxiety symptoms wouldn't be there to begin with unless there was something else about being with other people (acting in a way that is embarrassing, being judged, etc) that causes the initial anxiety.
> So, something about being at the barbers made you blush. That is the initial cause of your anxiety. The secondary comes as a result of blushing. If you hadn't been anxious and blushed in the first place, you would not fear you will blush again. They're both important aspects of SA, that's what makes it a vicious cycle. I just thought I should make a point of it when I didn't really see the first part mentioned in your OP. Not a big deal really, just me being confuzzled


o yer im fully aware of that. i do realize that the main concern for social phobics is the fear of being judged. and that fear is what origionally created the physical symptoms.

it strange that i forgot to put that on my list. i supposed its because i was looking at that diagnostic criteria that i posted for you, and it doesnt mention it on there. uk and american diagnostic criteria's usually differ slightly on most disorders so i guess the other diagnostic criteria will mentioned the fear of judgement

the fear of being judged did origionally start the anxiety sympotms but once youve got intot he habit of blushing or whatever the fear of showing the physical symptoms can actually cause the symptoms all by themselves

ill edit the origional post to make sure i add the judgement thing to it


----------



## Relaxation (Jul 12, 2010)

Social Phobia is the same as Social Anxiety Disorder, but it is different from Social Anxiety, which is also different from Avoidant Personality Disorder, which is also different from Agoraphobia.


----------



## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

Thanks again for all your research and insight donavan (and everyone else). I'm starting a blog called "A Day in the Life of an Avoidant." It will contain information on AvPD as well as my road to recovery. Hope to have it up and running in a few days. I'll put a link in my signature for any one who is interested.


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Whitney said:


> Thanks again for all your research and insight donavan (and everyone else). I'm starting a blog called "A Day in the Life of an Avoidant." It will contain information on AvPD as well as my road to recovery. Hope to have it up and running in a few days. I'll put a link in my signature for any one who is interested.


look forward to it


----------



## Whoareyou (Jun 8, 2010)

Aaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## milo001 (Nov 26, 2008)

Whitney said:


> Thanks again for all your research and insight donavan (and everyone else). I'm starting a blog called "A Day in the Life of an Avoidant." It will contain information on AvPD as well as my road to recovery. Hope to have it up and running in a few days. I'll put a link in my signature for any one who is interested.


will be looking forward to it as well.


----------



## Amanda123 (Jan 21, 2010)

I definitely have AVPD. Explains SO much.. Thanks.


----------



## engima (Feb 3, 2009)

donavan said:


> but now i know why im so ''lazy''. its becasue avoidants avoid uncomfortable feelings and even uncomfortable thoughts. it makes sense now cos i remember in the past trying to use cbt to uncover my irrational beleifs but everytime i tried to do it my mind just went blank and i got irritated and felt the need to just go and watch tv. it was driving me round the bend and up the wall, i just couldnt understand why i couldnt do it. but now i know why


Have you figured out something about how to help with this? Like learning not to automatically distract oneself and face the thought/feelings?


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

engima said:


> Have you figured out something about how to help with this? Like learning not to automatically distract oneself and face the thought/feelings?


well i know exactly how to change this problem i.e how to become tolerant of discomfort instead of intolerant to it but it will take some time and repetition

i couldnt say yes do this now and instantly you will be able to uncover your beleifs. but i can say do this consistantly and eventaully it will get easier and easier to uncover your beleifs

any way the way to get over this is a combination of 5 things

1)thinkrightnow cd. listen everyday to their end procrastination cd. you cant handle discomfort cos you have beleifs in your unconcious mind. this cd rips out those beleifs and then installs new ones

2)www.wendi.com end procrastination cd. listen to the track called ''do it now'' everyday for 3 weeks. this allows you to see somebody else who can handle discomfort and then step into their body and modell their behaviour
after that listen to the track ''future self'' for 3 weeks. this will give you the self image of somebody who can handle discomfort

3)nlp parts integration. there is a reason why you want to avoid discomfort. parts of you wants to face it and part of you wants to avoid it. you are in conflict. the parts intergration will bring the parts together and make them realize they want the same things which then ends the conflict (i can give you instructions on how to do this)
also the track called ''self sabatage '' on the wendi cd is similar to this

4)nlp strategy. when you avoid discomfort you run a stratgy in your head . it might be something like :

*you get a feeling of discomfort
*you say ''i cant handle this ''
*you make an image of something comfortable to do like watch tv and this gives you a warm feeling
*you say to yourself ''i want that '' 
and then you do it

you need to create a new strategy, one that is gonna get you to go through the discomfort. look into areas in yuor life were you are successful and uncover your strategies int hose areas and then use the same sequence for this. sequence means wether you make a picture then a feeling then a thought etc...

everytime you feel you old strategy taking place just pinch yourself or were an elastic band on your wrist and pull it hard and let it twang onto your wrist . this interupts the old strategy. then take a deep breathe get some good posture and then conciously run through the knew strategy. this will take some time and repetition and will feel a bit awkward at 1st, maybe even feel like its not working. but if you keep doing it eventaully it will happen automatucally

5)habits. yuor in the habit of avoiding discomfort . its up to you through your own concious effort to keep doing the new habit and avoiding the old one. every time you do the new one you strenghen it.
if you have 2 plants and you want to keep one alive and let one die then you must pay attention to one of them and keep watering it. and ignore the other one completely and eventaully it will die


----------



## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

^ oh wow that is great, thanks.

I'm pretty sure that my "lack of motivation" is really avoidance of discomfort. Now that I know that I can approach the problem in the right way.


----------



## Scorpius (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm definitely a very avoidant person but I have to say that I never take this "disorder" word seriously..it's nothing but BS to me..it's just a way to simplify complex behaviors into words or categories in an attempt to understand the actual problem...it's also a way to take advantage of people..

I don't agree that SAD and AVPD are separate or 2 different things at all..to me SA "disorder" is like a general word that probably contains many other "disorders" including AVPD, depression and whatever else..

Human behaviors are just too complicated and interrelated and shouldn't be categorized into "disorders" like that..it's nonsense

I mean what about DBD (Douchebag disorder)...how come I don't see that on the list of disorders here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders_as_defined_by_the_DSM_and_ICD

If anxiety and avoidance are disorders then rudeness should be too then...but NOOO that which doesn't fit in the shallow negative society we live is a "disorder" and the rest is "normal".. :roll

I also totally disagree with this:



donavan said:


> *low self esteem goes hand in hand with avpd. avoidants have a low sense of self worth and beleive they are inferior and worthless


I'm very avoidant but I also have a lot of self worth and don't believe I'm inferior or worthless as a human being at all..so they def. don't go hand in hand.
I'm avoidant because of people shallowness and judgmental attitude and lack of appreciation and understanding of the qualities i have...so i'm mostly fine alone..it's the people that drain my self worth with their criticism and shallowness so that's why I avoid them

I'm not saying I'm not inferior in certain situations but I just don't see my whole self as worthless either..so may be what you meant to say is this:

*Having low self worth in "certain social situations" go hand in hand with avpd*

But still like I said all this "disorders" talk and over diagnosing crap is nonsense...there's but only one disorder and that is ignorance of your true self and identifying with your ego instead...that is all

Everyone suffers form that disorder..either you have SA or not..and we are all really in the same boat...people that don't have SA aren't any better..they have their share of problems and delusions to deal with too..it's just they are accepted by society and seen as "normal" and we are not because we don't fit in that lame social ideal

Personally I see society as a disorder in itself and that's why I'm avoidant...i don't like to interact too much in society because I fear one day I'll become "normal"..lol

I mean ever thought what does it mean to be "normal"...what if being normal isn't necessarily a good thing anyways?..would you still want to be normal?


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Scorpius said:


> I'm definitely a very avoidant person but I have to say that I never take this "disorder" word seriously..it's nothing but BS to me..it's just a way to simplify complex behaviors into words or categories in an attempt to understand the actual problem...it's also a way to take advantage of people..
> 
> I don't agree that SAD and AVPD are separate or 2 different things at all..to me SA "disorder" is like a general word that probably contains many other "disorders" including AVPD, depression and whatever else..
> 
> ...


if you dont have a problem with self worth then you havent got avpd. the self worth is the core of avpd, thats were the problem began. avoidants dont beleive they are good , they think they are inferior to others and that is what casues their fear of criticism , disaproval and rejection. if they liked themselves and thought they were good enough then they wouldnt care fi people criticise, rejected or ridiculed them cos it wouldnt mean anything to them

i certainly take the disorder word seriously. i mean if you read gillian butlers book it completely explain how social anxiety works and there are millions of people who read that book and have a ''aha thats me !!'' moment. there is millions of people in the world who have exactly the same problem.


----------



## Scorpius (Feb 26, 2010)

donavan said:


> if you dont have a problem with self worth then you havent got avpd. the self worth is the core of avpd, thats were the problem began. avoidants dont beleive they are good , they think they are inferior to others and that is what casues their fear of criticism , disaproval and rejection. if they liked themselves and thought they were good enough then they wouldnt care fi people criticise, rejected or ridiculed them cos it wouldnt mean anything to them
> 
> i certainly take the disorder word seriously. i mean if you read gillian butlers book it completely explain how social anxiety works and there are millions of people who read that book and have a ''aha thats me !!'' moment. there is millions of people in the world who have exactly the same problem.


I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here...I'm talking about thinking outside of the box

I never seen a psychologist or took medications and I don't see my condition as a "disorder" but not because I don't suffer from anxiety or extreme avoidance or that I don't fit in the description but because I don't want to attach myself to labels..that's a big mistake that you're all doing..identifying yourself with these so called disorders and attaching yourself to it or letting others attach you to it and tell you what you are and what you aren't...like I said having anxiety or being avoidant is only a "disorder" because society or "psychologists" says so...what happened to rudeness? why isn't there such a thing as douchebag disorder? do you know why?..because being rude is accepted by society while being anxious and avoidant isn't...the truth is all of them are just problems of the ego..they all have the same root...there's no need to attach yourself with a whole bunch of disorders because that's only going to make your self worth go down if anything...

what happens when you find out that being avoidant is something called AVPD..you now have attached yourself to a new label..not only do you have SA now but you also have AVPD...you have also accepted and concluded that because you are avoidant then you must have no self worth and it has become part of your believe system...how awesome...I'm pretty sure most people will read this and conclude that they have both SA and AVPD...you see the root problem is the same..now they are just divided into 2 categories instead of 1..they are not really different or separate that's what I'm trying to say..they are interrelated.

Avoidance isn't exactly about self worth...it's about self worth in "social situations"...just because I avoid social situations doesn't mean I have no self worth...there's a big difference that you're not seeing here..it has to do more with fear of being judged or criticized and not being accepted for being myself..it's a fear of having no worth to others not to myself

Society dictates your self worth but only if you let it do so..if you let society tell you what is and what isn't accepted then you will fall in the trap and feel the worthlessness compared to society standards...and that's exactly what these so called "disorders" are doing to people..just more ways to exclude people from what is accepted as "normal"

So i guess my point is the word disorder is being over used and abused to take advantage of people...to make you feel less worthy of yourself when others aren't really that much better than you are..the only difference between you and what is called "normal" is that you are not accepted by society while the rest are, even though they have behaviors that are worthy of being categorized into a disorder as well


----------



## rachelynn (Sep 12, 2008)

Thanks for the info! I'm always curious about AVPD vs SA and I think this was a very good explanation. I'm not entirely sure if I have it or not but I can agree with much of it.
I just wonder though, besides fearing expressing yourself, showing your real self, and being rejected (which I fear) what if you don't know your real self? That would make it even harder to try to cover up your real self what you think it might be and it would be so much more confusing. Or maybe "not knowing your self" is one way to avoid showing your real self. I think maybe that's a problem I have.


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Scorpius said:


> I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here...I'm talking about thinking outside of the box
> 
> I never seen a psychologist or took medications and I don't see my condition as a "disorder" but not because I don't suffer from anxiety or extreme avoidance or that I don't fit in the description but because I don't want to attach myself to labels..that's a big mistake that you're all doing..identifying yourself with these so called disorders and attaching yourself to it or letting others attach you to it and tell you what you are and what you aren't...like I said having anxiety or being avoidant is only a "disorder" because society or "psychologists" says so...what happened to rudeness? why isn't there such a thing as douchebag disorder? do you know why?..because being rude is accepted by society while being anxious and avoidant isn't...the truth is all of them are just problems of the ego..they all have the same root...there's no need to attach yourself with a whole bunch of disorders because that's only going to make your self worth go down if anything...
> 
> ...


at the end of the day i looked at the diagnostic criteria for avpd and i say ''thats me''. it fitted me to a tee. it explained everything. then i read gillian butlers book were she explains all the things that sa people do and again i said ''thats me''. that book explain everything i do down to a tee. it was like somebody had watched my whole lifew and seen first hand how i behaved and then got inside my head and seen first hand how i thought. and then they put it all into a book .

becasue of that i have no problem having a label over my head

_*what happened to rudeness? why isn't there such a thing as douchebag disorder? do you know why?..because being rude is accepted by society while being anxious and avoidant isn't*_

there is no such thing as douchbag disorder cos its quite simply not a disorder. everybody has little charactor traits that are negative but not every single one of them can be called a disorder. SA is a disorder becasue it is a disorder if yuo know what i mean. its a disorder, it completely takes over people's life , completely controlls them

_*what happens when you find out that being avoidant is something called AVPD..you now have attached yourself to a new label..not only do you have SA now but you also have AVPD...you have also accepted and concluded that because you are avoidant then you must have no self worth and it has become part of your believe 
system*_

ive hated myself and had no self worth since i was 5. i didnt need some description of a disorder to make me beleive that i hated myself

*Avoidance isn't exactly about self worth...it's about self worth in "social situations"...just because I avoid social situations doesn't mean I have no self worth...there's a big difference that you're not seeing here..it has to do more with fear of being judged or criticized and not being accepted for being myself..it's a fear of having no worth to others not to myself*

youve contraduicted yourself a bit there. you say you have got self worth but then you say ''its a fear of not being accepted for myself''. if you had self worth you wouldnt care if people accetped you for yourself or not becasue you'd already know that you was worthy anyway

avpd is not just avoidance of scoial situations , its avoidance of yourself , of yuor real self and the expression of it. social anxiety is avoidance of social situation of social situations. it's the fear that something embarrassing will happen and that you will panic.
avpd is more complex than that, its avoidance of expression of the real self out of fears of rejection cos the real self is not WORTHY

_*So i guess my point is the word disorder is being over used and abused to take advantage of people...to make you feel less worthy of yourself when others aren't really that much better than you are..the only difference between you and what is called "normal" is that you are not accepted by society while the rest are, even though they have behaviors that are worthy of being categorized into a disorder as well[*_

well put it this way the day i found out i had avpd was one of the best days of my life and it actually made me feel worthy
id spent my whole life thinking i was odd and weird and different. and i spent my whole life not understanding myself and not underatnding the way i lived or behaved
and then i read about avpd and it explain why i behaved and lived the way i did, it all made sense and everything became clear. 
i was no longer confused , i was empowered with knowledge
and then i realized im not unworthy weird or odd. i have a disorder and thats why i am the way i am, i am actually worthy after all


----------



## Scorpius (Feb 26, 2010)

*At the end of the day i looked at the diagnostic criteria for avpd and i say ''thats me''. it fitted me to a tee. it explained everything. then i read gillian butlers book were she explains all the things that sa people do and again i said ''thats me''. that book explain everything i do down to a tee. it was like somebody had watched my whole lifew and seen first hand how i behaved and then got inside my head and seen first hand how i thought. and then they put it all into a book .

becasue of that i have no problem having a label over my head *

Well, that is fine...but i just want to point out that "it's not you" it's your "behaviors" not you..there's a difference..and as long as you have no problem having that label over your head you will be attached to it and it will remain part of your identity and ego

*there is no such thing as douchbag disorder cos its quite simply not a disorder. everybody has little charactor traits that are negative but not every single one of them can be called a disorder. SA is a disorder becasue it is a disorder if yuo know what i mean. its a disorder, it completely takes over people's life , completely controlls them *

There's no difference between anxiety, avoidance or rudeness..all are negative behaviors and all are problems of the ego..anxiety and avoidance are labeled as disorders because society says so..they just don't fit in the box..rudeness and aggressiveness can completely take over people's lives too and completely control them but they are not looked down upon as much as anxiety and avoidance because they are more accepted by society...anxiety and avoidance aren't accepted and are seen as a sign of weakness...that's why they get the "disorder" label....the label disorder is based on society standards...I'll say it again there's no difference between you and anybody else that is "normal" except they fit in the box and you don't..everyone has his own negative behaviors and problems to deal with...what about corrupt, greedy and selfish people? they have a disorder just much as you do if not worst..but they are much more accepted by society so they don't get labeled

*youve contradicted yourself a bit there. you say you have got self worth but then you say ''its a fear of not being accepted for myself''. if you had self worth you wouldnt care if people accetped you for yourself or not becasue you'd already know that you was worthy anyway

avpd is not just avoidance of scoial situations , its avoidance of yourself , of yuor real self and the expression of it. social anxiety is avoidance of social situation of social situations. it's the fear that something embarrassing will happen and that you will panic.* *
avpd is more complex than that, its avoidance of expression of the real self out of fears of rejection cos the real self is not WORTHY *

Perhaps I did because it's very confusing and complicated..let me say it again and try to explain it better...

Avoidance isn't exactly about self worth...it's about *EGO* worth in "social situations"...just because I avoid social situations doesn't mean I have no self worth or think I'm inferior...it has to do more with fear of being judged or criticized and not being accepted for *showing my EGO or personality* ..it's a fear of the EGO having no worth to others not to myself. My EGO is afraid of judgment and criticism of others that's why I'm avoidant. The EGO is NOT the self though. It's only the concept of myself..the illusion of myself. My EGO is afraid of getting crushed and being forced to face my real self. The Ego is our shell protecting the real self inside.

So basically when you are in a social situation that you don't like, first thing you try to do is avoid it...if that doesn't work you try to hide or mask your ego with other distractions like "acting cool or aloof" because you are afraid to show your ego or personality and have it get crushed because then you will have no other choice but to face your real self which is what you're trying to hide and avoiding to show...but that have nothing to do with self worth..either you have self worth or not you are avoidant simply because you are afraid of losing your EGO because it protects you from showing or seeing your true self..that's what avoidance is all about...why do we run from ourselves or hide ourselves like that? May be because we are afraid others will take advantage of us or reject us...may be we are afraid of the pressure to fit in and act in a certain way or may be because we are afraid of losing what we already have and familiar with...whatever it is we are afraid of losing our ego and identity because we are so attached to it and we get a sense of self and security from it..we are afraid of stepping out of our shell and jump into unfamiliar and unknown situations..as long as we are in our shell we are generally fine but we know we must get out of it and we can't stay there all the time..that's when things get complicated..

*well put it this way the day i found out i had avpd was one of the best days of my life and it actually made me feel worthy
id spent my whole life thinking i was odd and weird and different. and i spent my whole life not understanding myself and not underatnding the way i lived or behaved
and then i read about avpd and it explain why i behaved and lived the way i did, it all made sense and everything became clear. 
i was no longer confused , i was empowered with knowledge
and then i realized im not unworthy weird or odd. i have a disorder and thats why i am the way i am, i am actually worthy after all*

Well it's certainly a step closer to understanding your self...I'm just trying to point out something deeper to you and to others...this is still not who you are..this is just your EGO or personality..it's just your behaviors that create your self image not your actual self...you now just identify your self with a new concept of who you are..instead of thinking of yourself as "unworthy odd and weird" you now identify with this concept of AVPD and you get a new sense of self from it which gives you comfort, security and belonging...but it's still just your ego or shell shifting and taking another shape adapting to the situation.

when you think you are "an avoidant person with a disorder" you accept it as part of your new self or who you are and you act according to it...but it's still all just ego illusions...still tricks of the mind to delude you from your real self...it's still not who you are..still not your true self so your self worth should have nothing to do with it..but once you accept it as a "disorder" and get attached to the label you also accept being inferior to others and get attached to that idea...that's what the word "disorder" implies..some kind of inferiority to others...So again I'll tell you this is not true...you're not inferior to others just because you have anxiety or avoidance issues...everyone is equal, we all just have *"different ego problems"*...the word "disorder" is nothing but BS that distracts and misleads people..

This is all not to argue or anything but just to clarify how this word "disorder" can be so misleading and abused if you take it too seriously..

Eh I hope all that made some sense... :afr


----------



## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

Scorpius said:


> Avoidance isn't exactly about self worth...it's about *EGO* worth in "social situations"...just because I avoid social situations doesn't mean I have no self worth or think I'm inferior...it has to do more with fear of being judged or criticized and not being accepted for *showing my EGO or personality* ..it's a fear of the EGO having no worth to others not to myself. My EGO is afraid of judgment and criticism of others that's why I'm avoidant. The EGO is NOT the self though. It's only the concept of myself..the illusion of myself. My EGO is afraid of getting crushed and being forced to face my real self. The Ego is our shell protecting the real self inside.


At the core of AvPD is the belief that you are inferior to others. If you don't have that belief just the the fear of being judged or criticized or not being accepted, then most likely you have SAD not AvPD. But since you don't care about labels, I don't understand why you are arguing this.


----------



## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

Scorpius said:


> There's no difference between anxiety, avoidance or rudeness..all are negative behaviors and all are problems of the ego..anxiety and avoidance are labeled as disorders because society says so..they just don't fit in the box..rudeness and aggressiveness can completely take over people's lives too and completely control them but they are not looked down upon as much as anxiety and avoidance because they are more accepted by society...anxiety and avoidance aren't accepted and are seen as a sign of weakness...that's why they get the "disorder" label....the label disorder is based on society standards...I'll say it again there's no difference between you and anybody else that is "normal" except they fit in the box and you don't..everyone has his own negative behaviors and problems to deal with...what about corrupt, greedy and selfish people? they have a disorder just much as you do if not worst..but they are much more accepted by society so they don't get labeled


There is a difference. For one, people with anxiety and avoidance usually feel that there is something wrong with their behavior and to some extent want to change. People that are rude or aggressive often do not realize they have a problem or want to change. Also it rarely "takes over people's lives." It is usually situational and can be controlled. In cases where it can't be, it is likely that person can be diagnosed with something, like narcissistic personality disorder maybe? There isn't an actual "anger disorder" in the DSM yet but there has been talk of one.

The reason why these labels are important is to get help, mainly to know how to help. I agree that sometimes labels are bad. Often psychologists or psychiatrists may have a diagnosis in their head or even on paper but they do not tell the patient because they don't want the negative effects of the label. But being able to categorize it helps them in knowing the treatment plan. That is why the labels exist.


----------



## Scorpius (Feb 26, 2010)

Whitney said:


> At the core of AvPD is the belief that you are inferior to others. If you don't have that belief just the the fear of being judged or criticized or not being accepted, then most likely you have SAD not AvPD. But since you don't care about labels, I don't understand why you are arguing this.


I'm not arguing or anything..I'm trying to make you look beyond the labels to see the core of the problem...this isn't about SAD or AVPD or which one you belong to...it's about society dictating your self worth and identity...I agree that at one point I was avoidant because I felt inferior to others but I don't feel inferior to others anymore yet I still continue to be avoidant so it's not really the core of the problem...I might be still avoidant because I feel "socially inferior"..but that doesn't mean that I'm avoidant because I feel my self is worthless or inferior to others..can you see the difference?..I'm only inferior by society standards but if I drop these standards I no longer feel inferior...the core of the problem is getting attached to these standards and letting them dictate your self worth specially in social situations..it's an ego and attachment problem



Whitney said:


> There is a difference. For one, people with anxiety and avoidance usually feel that there is something wrong with their behavior and to some extent want to change. People that are rude or aggressive often do not realize they have a problem or want to change. Also it rarely "takes over people's lives." It is usually situational and can be controlled. In cases where it can't be, it is likely that person can be diagnosed with something, like narcissistic personality disorder maybe? There isn't an actual "anger disorder" in the DSM yet but there has been talk of one.
> 
> The reason why these labels are important is to get help, mainly to know how to help. I agree that sometimes labels are bad. Often psychologists or psychiatrists may have a diagnosis in their head or even on paper but they do not tell the patient because they don't want the negative effects of the label. But being able to categorize it helps them in knowing the treatment plan. That is why the labels exist.


Really so rudeness, greed and selfishness didn't take over people lives and led to war and violence? Aren't hate, war and violence the worst disorders? again I'll explain this to you and tell you why anxiety and avoidance are labeled as disorders while rudeness, greed and violence aren't....Society is dictating what is acceptable and what isn't...what is normal and what is a disroder...people that are anxious and avoidant feel the need to change because they are not easily accepted by society...they are seen as week so they feel the pressure and need to fit in...rude, violent and greedy people don't feel the need to change because their behaviors are more accepted by society and seen as "normal" or "tough"...all of these are equally negative behaviors and problems of the ego..the only difference is you get labeled with a disorder but they don't and the reason is to put pressure on you to fit in..

I understand the need for these labels to help others..but in my opinion they are being abused and over using the term "disorder" is just a way to take advantage of people...it's distracting from the core of the problem and making things more complicated than they need to be..


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

'Disorder' is just used to indicate that the problem is interfering with the person's ability to function in life - most people have social anxiety, but it becomes a disorder when it interferes with your ability to work, or go to school, or have a relationship, etc. And I think 'personality disorder' just grew out of recognition that some people were much harder to treat than others. 

It's not the labels that cause problems - the labels are just describing something that's already there. When I was younger I just thought I was nervous and insecure, and then it eventually turned into full blown social phobia. But I had no such label for it, and when I finally saw a psychologist, I was first just diagnosed as being neurotic (really old school!), and then at another one, as having depression and anxiety. They didn't even have good CBT treatment for social anxiety back then. 

Now that I have this label (only since last year, actually), I see how I could get attached to it, and hide behind it, and that IS bad. It can become an excuse - oh, I can't do that, I have social anxiety disorder. But I avoided things before that anyway, just saying, oh, I don't want to do that, it would make me too nervous. So, I don't know - the labels have both good and bad aspects I guess.


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Scorpius said:


> *At the end of the day i looked at the diagnostic criteria for avpd and i say ''thats me''. it fitted me to a tee. it explained everything. then i read gillian butlers book were she explains all the things that sa people do and again i said ''thats me''. that book explain everything i do down to a tee. it was like somebody had watched my whole lifew and seen first hand how i behaved and then got inside my head and seen first hand how i thought. and then they put it all into a book .
> 
> becasue of that i have no problem having a label over my head *
> 
> ...


i hate to keep repeating myself but avpd is not a fear of social situations. sa is.

avpd is about hiding your real self completely , not just in social situations but in everyday life in every situation hiding the self cos the self is inferior

sa is a fear of social situations cos social situations trigger a phobic response

avpd is all about self worth


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Scorpius said:


> *At the end of the day i looked at the diagnostic criteria for avpd and i say ''thats me''. it fitted me to a tee. it explained everything. then i read gillian butlers book were she explains all the things that sa people do and again i said ''thats me''. that book explain everything i do down to a tee. it was like somebody had watched my whole lifew and seen first hand how i behaved and then got inside my head and seen first hand how i thought. and then they put it all into a book .
> 
> becasue of that i have no problem having a label over my head *
> 
> ...


*Well, that is fine...but i just want to point out that "it's not you" it's your "behaviors" not you..there's a difference..and as long as you have no problem having that label over your head you will be attached to it and it will remain part of your identity and ego*

your putting words in my mouth there. i didnt even meen it in that sense

_*There's no difference between anxiety, avoidance or rudeness..all are negative behaviors and all are problems of the ego..anxiety and avoidance are labeled as disorders because society says so..they just don't fit in the box..rudeness and aggressiveness can completely take over people's lives too and completely control them but they are not looked down upon as much as anxiety and avoidance because they are more accepted by society...anxiety and avoidance aren't accepted and are seen as a sign of weakness...that's why they get the "disorder" label....the label disorder is based on society standards...I'll say it again there's no difference between you and anybody else that is "normal" except they fit in the box and you don't..everyone has his own negative behaviors and problems to deal with...what about corrupt, greedy and selfish people? they have a disorder just much as you do if not worst..but they are much more accepted by society so they don't get labeled*_

narcisistic personality disorder and anti social personality disorder may be described as douchbag disorder.
every little negative charactor trait cannot be turned into a disorder. the fear and avoidance of a social phobic has been turned into a disorder becasue it warrants being turned into a disorder cos its so excessive

i cant even be arsed explaining this point cos its so obivous

anxiety and avoidance is not looked down upon. and anxiety and avoidance is accepted. i dont know were you are getting this from


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Scorpius said:


> I'm not arguing or anything..I'm trying to make you look beyond the labels to see the core of the problem...this isn't about SAD or AVPD or which one you belong to...it's about society dictating your self worth and identity...I agree that at one point I was avoidant because I felt inferior to others but I don't feel inferior to others anymore yet I still continue to be avoidant so it's not really the core of the problem...I might be still avoidant because I feel "socially inferior"..but that doesn't mean that I'm avoidant because I feel my self is worthless or inferior to others..can you see the difference?..I'm only inferior by society standards but if I drop these standards I no longer feel inferior...the core of the problem is getting attached to these standards and letting them dictate your self worth specially in social situations..it's an ego and attachment problem
> 
> Really so rudeness, greed and selfishness didn't take over people lives and led to war and violence? Aren't hate, war and violence the worst disorders? again I'll explain this to you and tell you why anxiety and avoidance are labeled as disorders while rudeness, greed and violence aren't....Society is dictating what is acceptable and what isn't...what is normal and what is a disroder...people that are anxious and avoidant feel the need to change because they are not easily accepted by society...they are seen as week so they feel the pressure and need to fit in...rude, violent and greedy people don't feel the need to change because their behaviors are more accepted by society and seen as "normal" or "tough"...all of these are equally negative behaviors and problems of the ego..the only difference is you get labeled with a disorder but they don't and the reason is to put pressure on you to fit in..
> 
> _*I understand the need for these labels to help others..but in my opinion they are being abused and over using the term "disorder" is just a way to take advantage of people...it's distracting from the core of the problem and making things more complicated than they need to be.*_.


_*people that are anxious and avoidant feel the need to change because they are not easily accepted by society*_

people who are anxious and avoidant want to change for one reason and one reason only and that is becasue the avoidant and anxiety is making them unhappy and making their life miserable and they dont want that anymore. thats why they want to change , it has nothing to do with anxiety and avoidance not being accepted by society. no social phobic says ''i must change becasue my anxiety is not accepted by society'' no they say '' i must change becuase this anxiety is ruining my life and i want to be happy''

were are you getting this information from that society has not accepted anxiety and avoidance ? were is that coming from ?
_*
rude, violent and greedy people don't feel the need to change because their behaviors are more accepted by society and seen as "normal" or "tough"*_

i dont know what world you live in but it certainly aint the same world as i live in. your world doesnt sound very nice, a place were anxiety is not accepted but violence and greed are

as far as i was aware violence lands you in prison but being anxious doesnt. are you sure violence is accepted by society ?

_*all of these are equally negative behaviors and problems of the ego..the only difference is you get labeled with a disorder but they don't and the reason is to put pressure on you to fit in..*_

anyone can be a bit of a deuchbag some times and anyone can be a bit anxious sometimes. but when anxiety is excessive and out of control and when it effects a persons life it is a disorder.
its the same for being a ''deuchebag'' too. if its excessive and out of controll it becomes a disorder. there are many disorders relating to ''deuchebag'' behaviours , antisocial personality disorder is one of them 
.
_*I understand the need for these labels to help others..but in my opinion they are being abused and over using the term "disorder" is just a way to take advantage of people...it's distracting from the core of the problem and making things more complicated than they need to be.

*_how is labelling someone with a disorder taking advantage of that person ?


----------



## KumagoroBeam (Sep 15, 2008)

Scorpius said:


> I'm not arguing or anything..I'm trying to make you look beyond the labels to see the core of the problem...this isn't about SAD or AVPD or which one you belong to...it's about society dictating your self worth and identity...I agree that at one point I was avoidant because I felt inferior to others but I don't feel inferior to others anymore yet I still continue to be avoidant so it's not really the core of the problem...I might be still avoidant because I feel "socially inferior"..but that doesn't mean that I'm avoidant because I feel my self is worthless or inferior to others..can you see the difference?..*I'm only inferior by society standards but if I drop these standards I no longer feel inferior*...the core of the problem is getting attached to these standards and letting them dictate your self worth specially in social situations..it's an ego and attachment problem.


Just wanted to say that I can totally relate to your posts in this thread. I feel the same way. I have self worth, but I feel like I'm of no worth to other people.


----------



## Scorpius (Feb 26, 2010)

LostPancake said:


> 'Disorder' is just used to indicate that the problem is interfering with the person's ability to function in life - most people have social anxiety, but it becomes a disorder when it interferes with your ability to work, or go to school, or have a relationship, etc. And I think 'personality disorder' just grew out of recognition that some people were much harder to treat than others.
> 
> It's not the labels that cause problems - the labels are just describing something that's already there. When I was younger I just thought I was nervous and insecure, and then it eventually turned into full blown social phobia. But I had no such label for it, and when I finally saw a psychologist, I was first just diagnosed as being neurotic (really old school!), and then at another one, as having depression and anxiety. They didn't even have good CBT treatment for social anxiety back then.


But who said going to work, school and having a relationship are the most valuable things in life or the goal of life..they are the most important things in life because society says so..as soon as you are born you are told so...it's the "social standards" that dictate your self worth that I'm talking about...it's what society declares as important and valuable in life but not nec. what is important or valuable in life...your self was trying to adapt to these standards and ideals but couldn't that's why you became different..these "disorders" are just a reflection of your inability to fit in society ideals so they are not really "disorders"..humans weren't supposed to live this kind of life anyways if you know what I mean..

what if nobody in the world suffered from SAD and AVPD or any other similar mental disorder...what if we all did in fact fit in? would that make society free of disorders? wouldn't there be ignorance, rudeness, hate, violence and wars still..why aren't those worthy of being labeled a disorder then..again Society dictates what is valuable and what isn't so if you go by society standards then the self will feel worthless and out of place compared to them..
We need to drop these social ideals and standards and see our place in the universe not in society..we need to see our value and purpose in existence itself not in society..then we will be able to value the self based on truth not lies..who cares what society declares as valuable and what isn't..if your values are not the same as society's then so be it..

Oh I wasn't saying that the labels caused the problems..they just add to it and distract from the actual problem...It's ignorance of your true self and identifying with the ego that caused the problems. It's attachment to the social standards and wrong believes about what is real/valuable and what isn't that created the problem. You were already conditioned as a kid with certain believes and you were attached to them because you derived your ego or sense of self from them. You felt anxious and insecure from the pressure to fit in the social standards.


----------



## Scorpius (Feb 26, 2010)

donavan said:


> people who are anxious and avoidant want to change for one reason and one reason only and that is becasue the avoidant and anxiety is making them unhappy and making their life miserable and they dont want that anymore. thats why they want to change , it has nothing to do with anxiety and avoidance not being accepted by society. no social phobic says ''i must change becasue my anxiety is not accepted by society'' no they say '' i must change becuase this anxiety is ruining my life and i want to be happy''
> 
> were are you getting this information from that society has not accepted anxiety and avoidance ? were is that coming from ?


People who are avoidant and anxious are unhappy and want to change because they don't fit in..they are different and "weird" because they don't always hold the same social values and ideals...they have more sense of individuality and are not as "normalized" as others...they feel a lot of pressure to change and fit in...that's what it means they are not easily accepted by society



donavan said:


> how is labelling someone with a disorder taking advantage of that person ?


Therapy and medications can help some but it's also taking advantage of a lot of people that don't really need it if you haven't realized this...but hey if they want to spend money on those things it's up to them..I just feel sorry for people that are in pain because they don't understand themselves and they put their trust in others...the truth is all you need is yourself..all you need is awareness..but I guess you don't really care about anything I'm saying so I'm just gonna stop here

I have no desire to argue..I already made my points and I don't want to keep repeating myself..you can agree or disagree..either way is fine


----------



## LostPancake (Apr 8, 2009)

Scorpius said:


> But who said going to work, school and having a relationship are the most valuable things in life or the goal of life..they are the most important things in life because society says so..as soon as you are born you are told so...it's the "social standards" that dictate your self worth that I'm talking about...it's what society declares as important and valuable in life but not nec. what is important or valuable in life...your self was trying to adapt to these standards and ideals but couldn't that's why you became different..these "disorder" are just a reflection of your inability to fit in society ideals so they are not really "disorders"..humans weren't supposed to live this kind of life if you know what I mean..
> 
> what if nobody in the world suffered from SAD and AVPD or any other similar mental disorder...what if we all did in fact fit in? would that make society free of disorders? wouldn't there be ignorance, rudeness, hate, violence and wars still..why aren't those worthy of being labeled a disorder then..again Society dictates what is valuable and what isn't so if you go by society standards then the self will feel worthless and out of place compared to them..
> We need to drop these social ideals and standards and see our place in the universe not in society..we need to see our value and purpose in existence itself not in society..then we will be able to value the self based on truth not lies..who cares what society declares as valuable and what isn't..if your values are not the same as society's then so be it..
> ...


Oh, I see what you're saying - I guess I do identify with society's way of looking at it, because I do care about those things. I would say it's human nature to want those things, but human nature does have variations, and there are people who probably don't care about them as much. In which case, being labeled with a disorder might seem inappropriate.

The way I experience social anxiety, it's something in the way of what I want out of life. I did spend some years just accepting anxiety and avoiding people, and I was pretty miserable - my life was utterly meaningless, I felt like I was just waiting until I turned 80 and died. And I don't think it was an ego-driven thing - the need for social contact normally goes deeper than that.

As far as work goes, I'd rather be a hunter-gatherer, like we were made for, but without that option, I'd rather be able to work than have all this anxiety about interacting with people interfering with it. The anxiety is a bigger problem than the motivation to work - I actually do like working, except for the social aspects of it. But a certain amount of that probably does come from the ego, so yeah, I've been conditioned pretty well to want that. The alternative is to be a homeless person, or be dependent on someone else, or the state, which are not appealing to me.

Unless there's some job which requires NO social interaction whatsoever. That was the fantasy I had about art. But when I started getting more concrete about it, the idea of the social interaction required started bothering me a lot. Especially the idea of all these people viewing your work, and judging it, and buying it, or not buying it, and wanting to talk to you about it, etc. And having to crank good paintings out month after month. Although I guess the ideal would be to do something like landscape art, with no personality to it, and just sell them online, and be a totally enigmatic person, and never talk to the customers. But then that started to seem less appealing than actually dealing with my social anxiety and trying to get a more normal job, which is what I've been struggling with lately.


----------



## Whitney (Oct 2, 2008)

I think it is human nature to want to be apart of a society. We are social creatures by nature. That is why having difficulty with all things social is a disorder.


----------



## Scorpius (Feb 26, 2010)

Whitney said:


> I think it is human nature to want to be apart of a society. We are social creatures by nature. That is why having difficulty with all things social is a disorder.





LostPancake said:


> And I don't think it was an ego-driven thing - the need for social contact normally goes deeper than that.


It does go deeper than that..the need for socializing and connecting to others and nature is important because we are all connected and not separate..separateness is a big ego illusion. The problem is that your self is trying to fit in and adapt to a corrupt environment...because our society is corrupt we experience these anxiety and avoidance issues. Look at native Americans or similar cultures and how they lived their lives. They lived a simple life as part of nature. It makes sense to fit in and connect to nature and others in this type of society because that's the kind of life that was intended for humans...but the society we live in today isn't and that's why we have these anxiety and avoidance issues.



LostPancake said:


> As far as work goes, I'd rather be a hunter-gatherer, like we were made for, but without that option, I'd rather be able to work than have all this anxiety about interacting with people interfering with it. The anxiety is a bigger problem than the motivation to work - I actually do like working, except for the social aspects of it. But a certain amount of that probably does come from the ego, so yeah, I've been conditioned pretty well to want that. The alternative is to be a homeless person, or be dependent on someone else, or the state, which are not appealing to me.
> 
> Unless there's some job which requires NO social interaction whatsoever. That was the fantasy I had about art. But when I started getting more concrete about it, the idea of the social interaction required started bothering me a lot. Especially the idea of all these people viewing your work, and judging it, and buying it, or not buying it, and wanting to talk to you about it, etc. And having to crank good paintings out month after month. Although I guess the ideal would be to do something like landscape art, with no personality to it, and just sell them online, and be a totally enigmatic person, and never talk to the customers. But then that started to seem less appealing than actually dealing with my social anxiety and trying to get a more normal job, which is what I've been struggling with lately.


I know what you mean..this is why I want to be a self employed artist too. I know it's hard and not easy but it's def. possible because others have done it. It can't be worst than anything that I've already done or worked and I don't even see myself able to do anything else without feeling so dead inside..that's why i keep trying. I know the only things stopping me are my negative believes, lack of motivation, etc. But I'm sticking to it because it's what I value and what I would rather be doing with my life. To me it's something worth the pain and effort at least..either that or I just want to leave this whole place and go live on a mountain..lol

Well you could try selling prints of your originals..that way you don't feel so pressured to create new paintings all the time and worry about selling them with a low price. Also if you do sell art online and you become somewhat successful you don't have to hide all the time..you could still work on your social anxiety issues but by doing other activities that you actually do like and enjoy..like traveling, learning a musical instrument or whatever. You don't have to work on your social anxiety issues by trying to get a normal job..you know what i mean.


----------



## donavan (Jun 23, 2010)

Scorpius said:


> People who are avoidant and anxious are unhappy and want to change because they don't fit in..they are different and "weird" because they don't always hold the same social values and ideals...they have more sense of individuality and are not as "normalized" as others...they feel a lot of pressure to change and fit in...that's what it means they are not easily accepted by society
> 
> Therapy and medications can help some but it's also taking advantage of a lot of people that don't really need it if you haven't realized this...but hey if they want to spend money on those things it's up to them..I just feel sorry for people that are in pain because they don't understand themselves and they put their trust in others...the truth is all you need is yourself..all you need is awareness..but I guess you don't really care about anything I'm saying so I'm just gonna stop here
> 
> I have no desire to argue..I already made my points and I don't want to keep repeating myself..you can agree or disagree..either way is fine


_*Therapy and medications can help some but it's also taking advantage of a lot of people that don't really need it if you haven't realized this...but hey if they want to spend money on those things it's up to them..I just feel sorry for people that are in pain because they don't understand themselves and they put their trust in others...the truth is all you need is yourself..all you need is awareness..but I guess you don't really care about anything I'm saying so I'm just gonna stop here*_

people with anxiety disorders and personality disorders need help. they know that themselves. i certainly know that i need to change

i dont for one minute suspect that people are falsly diagnosed with disorders so that they can be given medication and taken advantage of

labelling someone with a disorder empowers them instead of takes advantage of them. it helps them understand what their problem is and how to change it. thats empowering cos its the opposite of being confused and hopeless


----------



## Primus (Oct 3, 2010)

This post was eye opening, thank you Donovan. I never consciously accepted that I completely reject who I am as a human being. What I look like, how I act, talk, the whole package. I can't even look at myself in a store window. I put on a mask/armor when I interact with other people, acting in a way that isn't me at all. Trying to put on a "tough guy" persona. That's not the real me in any way. It's nerve wracking and exhausting trying not to let any cracks appear in my armor, hiding my true self at any cost. I've done this most of my life.

All the social skills training, CBT, etc never addressed the root of my problem. They helped, but never freed me to be and express my true self. I never knew that had to be the end goal.


----------

