# Christianity and fear



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I was out last Saturday downtown and these college students with a large sign had Jesus hammered to a cross bleeding and screaming. Of course the picture was disgusting and graphic. The worst part wasn't that they were doing that, it was the fact that they gave me a pamphlet, and this is its description:


"SOME DAY YOU WILL STAND BEFORE GOD!

ARE YOU READY?"

(the picture cartoon characters screaming and crying while looking up in terror waiting to be judge by God. The image and idea of it all disgusts me--who could love someone who knew from the beginning that they were going to be cast aside and tortured forever? It's disgusting. And in the picture they stand there to be "judge" for how they were made all while crying and pleading for to God; terrified in a mist of dark clouds)

It goes on...

THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOU ARE NOT READY

Revelation 20:11-12

then...

Revelation 21:8

then... ecclesiastes(12:13), revelation(20:15), psalms(9:17), luke(12:5), etc... (basically, all fear-warnings)

Basically, it tell of how God will torture you and burn you alive for ever and ever and ever for being "wicked"...even though He made you that way....in the pictures people are crying and melting and naked burning in fire while holding their faces in agony and pain...there is also a picture of a giant hand pointing toward a fire demanding naked souls to walk into it all while they plead and beg for mercy...another picture has a demon on it forcing a man to look unto a book with a quote "and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" -revelation 20:15....

And of course more disgusting pictures and finally at the end jesus is nailed to a cross in bloody glory and the quote says in red "Even though you can't see Jesus, cry out to Him and ask Him to have mercy on your soul. COnfess all your sins to Him and ask Jesus to forgive you and change you; and trust in Him to do just that! Tell Him that you will follow and obey Him the rest of your life by faith."


To me, it's disgusting, and not because they use gruesome images to get a point across, but because they use fear to scare people into believing something. Why would God use fear to to love his children? It's disgusting, all while people burn and cry to God for what He made them. The pamphlet really pissed me off. People need to stop being morons and realize how much BS all this is. They live their lives in fear when in reality they think atheism is bad... if only they saw how ridiculous and hideous this notion of loving something that forces you to love Him or burn for eternity for how He made you. It's disgusting and pisses me off. It's disgusting because can you imagine all the ones you love, who are normal, decent human beings who care for others; who have cried on your shoulder and told you their most loving memories; who hug you and tell you they love and cherish you), yet because they had sex or because they work on the "sabbath" they should burn for all eternity? Imagine the girlfriend or boyfriend, wife, sister, mother, father, etc., who are good people who are going to are going to be taken away from you to burn in all eternity while you worship God forever and ever and ever. It really makes me angry how ****ing retarded this is.


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## Still Waters (Sep 18, 2008)

It has always struck me as bizarre that Christians so often resort to terror when reaching out to others. What happened to God is Love? Why doesn't that message transcend all others?


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## z3xorx1 (Feb 23, 2012)

We weren't made wicked. We chose to be wicked by disobeying God in the Garden Of Eden. Since God is the eternal being which is the center of everything, we can not be WITH him in eternity if we, in our lives on earth, did things which he ETERNALLY rejects. If we do things which God does not stand for in his morality, we have to be eternally seperated from him when we enter eternity. That is hell. Its not that he made us wicked. But he gives us the ability to choose betwen him or whatever else. Think about it, would someone who genuinly loves you FORCE you to do something? Or would he try to guide you and correct you so that you can make the right decision for yourself. IF someone just forces you, your are doing it perforce. Is that the same as realizing for yourself that God is good and that you need to repent and change yourself?


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## z3xorx1 (Feb 23, 2012)

I dont think that what you saw with those christians and their campaign or whatever is the right thing to do either. I think what they're saying is pretty much true but I dont think God want us to convert to him becuase we are scared of hell. He wants us to convert because of love for him. But you gotta find him first for that. And to find him you gotta search. Search and you will find.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

z3xorx1 said:


> We weren't made wicked. We chose to be wicked by disobeying God in the Garden Of Eden. Since God is the eternal being which is the center of everything, we can not be WITH him in eternity if we, in our lives on earth, did things which he ETERNALLY rejects. If we do things which God does not stand for in his morality, we have to be eternally seperated from him when we enter eternity. That is hell. Its not that he made us wicked. But he gives us the ability to choose betwen him or whatever else. Think about it, would someone who genuinly loves you FORCE you to do something? Or would he try to guide you and correct you so that you can make the right decision for yourself. IF someone just forces you, your are doing it perforce. Is that the same as realizing for yourself that God is good and that you need to repent and change yourself?


I understand this but it doesn't say once you been sent to hell you are ever going to be forgiven. Basically, it's a one-time shot while you're on earth, which is BS because God never shows himself unless it's via text in a book written by men.


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

z3xorx1 said:


> I dont think that what you saw with those christians and their campaign or whatever is the right thing to do either. I think what they're saying is pretty much true but I dont think God want us to convert to him becuase we are scared of hell.


That does not seem, in any biblical sense, true. Jesus himself spoke frequently of hell and seemed far more interested in gaining followers by telling them that what they were currently doing wasn't good enough for God and God would send them to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth if they didn't love him more than anyone else in their life.


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## Glacial (Jun 16, 2010)

This is probably the age-old purpose, and probably original intention, for the creation of religion--to scare people into submission. 

We should not need scare tactics such as these in order to be good humans.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Only for bull**** and lies does one need to manipulate, brainwash, fear monger another in believing such things. It doesn't take such actions to have someone believe something logical and factual, that just comes natural.


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## Meli24R (Dec 9, 2008)

I've always found christianity disgusting. I have respect for people and their right to believe what they want, but I don't respect religion itself. 
Yeah god is love. Worship me or burn as Carlin put it








Why would I even want to be part of a religion that condemns all of my loved ones to eternal suffering for not buying into such a farfetched, nonsensical tale? They did not 'choose' not to believe. They (like myself) 'can't/couldn't' believe because there is no substantial evidence. 
If christianity were true and I were to become a christian, how could I even enjoy heaven if everyone I loved in this life was in hell? Would my memory of them be wiped? Then pretty much my entire life on this planet would be wiped.

I feel sorry for children who are indoctrinated and grow up with the belief that all of their nonchristian friends/family members are going to hell. 
Why would an all knowing, all powerful deity create humans with the knowledge that they would certainly be imperfect and then punish them eternally for being imperfect? And then he sacrifices his son (who is actually himself







) and uses that as sort of an insurance policy to avoid hell. So someone like Jeffrey Dahmer (who apparently converted to christianity before his death) could be going to heaven and a nonchristian who spends his/her life being compassionate, kind and giving to others would be going to hell.


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## The Sleeping Dragon (Sep 29, 2011)

It's ironic how some Christians don't try to act as Jesus but rather glorify his violent death. Jesus wouldn't approve.


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## Craig788 (Apr 16, 2012)

i would of rolled the pamphlet up and thrown it in the dudes face.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Meli24R said:


> I've always found christianity disgusting. I have respect for people and their right to believe what they want, but I don't respect religion itself.
> Yeah god is love. Worship me or burn as Carlin put it
> 
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more.


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## minimized (Nov 17, 2007)

Those people are the best. They still think they can terrify people into believing.

They'll never understand that it doesn't work like that; terror only leads to lip-service. And even if it did... those people can go **** themselves.

Why would I not want to go to hell? Won't have to be with them and _their_ God.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)




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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Still Waters said:


> It has always struck me as bizarre that Christians so often resort to terror when reaching out to others. What happened to God is Love? Why doesn't that message transcend all others?


What he encountered was almost as bad as Westboro Baptist Church and we all just loooove them. :eyes :lol


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## Resonance (Feb 11, 2010)

Of course they attempt to use terror and fear.

That is how religion works. It cannot function at the level of rational thought, so it plays on emotions: Love, fear, guilt, prejudice, anger.

This is why you see Christians get so triumphant about the idea of deathbed conversions of outspoken atheists. They think that someone who knows they are about to die will be fearful and in a weaker state mentally; thinking more emotionally and less rationally. And thus rather than see the whole deathbed conversion thing as evidence that only the weak-minded can accept their philosophy, they rejoice in the potential for exploitation.

Religion cannot function without speaking to the baser human emotions.


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

Resonance said:


> Of course they attempt to use terror and fear.
> 
> That is how religion works. It cannot function at the level of rational thought, so it plays on emotions: Love, fear, guilt, prejudice, anger.


I don't think this is true as an absolute statement. I think many people also truly desire a sense of meaning in their lives that is outside of themselves. Religion gives people the sense that they aren't just masturbating around with self-interest or making it up as they go. I don't think religion is necessary for this, as I believe that there is in some sense an objective meaning to life and to goodness. But religious life, even religious egoism, are more acceptable and accessible to most people than the philosophical life.


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## Resonance (Feb 11, 2010)

albrecht said:


> I don't think this is true as an absolute statement. I think many people also truly desire a sense of meaning in their lives that is outside of themselves. Religion gives people the sense that they aren't just masturbating around with self-interest or making it up as they go.


I would agree with this, but stand by my original statement. Fulfilling a human desire for purpose is itself playing to the emotions rather than rationality. The premise is not 'You feel adrift in life, therefore religion is probably true' but 'You feel adrift, we can give you direction and make you feel a sense of purpose'.



albrecht said:


> I don't think religion is necessary for this, as I believe that there is in some sense an objective meaning to life and to goodness. *But religious life, even religious egoism, are more acceptable and accessible to most people than the philosophical life.*


I agree with this also, I understand that St. Augustine said something to this effect in his _Soliloquies_. I'm not saying that religion is inherently bad in and of itself, only that it is natural for it to seek to manipulate the emotions: in the case of the abrahamic religions, are large part of this manipulation manifests itself in the form of fear tactics.


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## Rodin (May 11, 2011)

Either fear or love. Whichever "hooks" you.


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

Resonance said:


> I would agree with this, but stand by my original statement. Fulfilling a human desire for purpose is itself playing to the emotions rather than rationality. The premise is not 'You feel adrift in life, therefore religion is probably true' but 'You feel adrift, we can give you direction and make you feel a sense of purpose'.


I don't think the search for meaning is of itself emotion based - the question of living a meaningful life - the question of how to live life in the best possible way - is itself rational. So fulfilling a human desire for purpose is not of itself necessarily emotionally rather than rationally based. The dichotomy of reason versus emotion in this instance more theoretical than practical - human values shape our observations of the world that in turn inform our decisions on which ways of life are more rational than others.

The problem with religion is that it takes a reasonable question and offers irrational answers. The Christian doctrine of sin and salvation, for instance, takes a problem - that we are inconsistent and do not always act according to virtues we are disposed to value most - and puts it into an irrational framework that neglects what we _can_ control - disciplining ourselves and improving - and says our main problem is seeking forgiveness for things we _can't_ control - actions done in the past.



> I agree with this also, I understand that St. Augustine said something to this effect in his _Soliloquies_. I'm not saying that religion is inherently bad in and of itself, only that it is natural for it to seek to manipulate the emotions: in the case of the abrahamic religions, are large part of this manipulation manifests itself in the form of fear tactics.


It's a stick-and-carrot tactic, basically.


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## mountain5 (May 22, 2008)

Look at PETA. If you _really_ believe that killing animals for food is morally the same as murdering an innocent person...then it's logical for you to do extreme things to stop that, like you would try to protect an innocent bystander from being murdered in the street. So their "shocking" protests and ad campaigns are very logical, from their own perspective.

Same thing with religious people...if you _really_ believed in Hell like these people do, you would go to any extreme to "save" people, it's the logical conclusion.

Actually, that was one of the initial reasons I turned to agnosticism...if anyone _really_ believed in God even 10% as they said they do, society would be completely different. Of course, there are those isolated individuals who have done great deeds in the name of their faith, but it's rare and those people tend not to have very long or comfortable lives...


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## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

Meli24R said:


> So someone like Jeffrey Dahmer (who apparently converted to christianity before his death) could be going to heaven and a nonchristian who spends his/her life being compassionate, kind and giving to others would be going to hell.


Brilliantly said i'm gonna remember that one. Its like if your God is going to damn us to hell because we don't bow down to him, then who wants to share heaven with someone like that. He sounds totalitarian like Hitler, i would never bow down to someone like that.


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## 7th.Streeter (May 11, 2011)

Hello, im not here to start anything ,just give you an answer if that's what your looking for. 

1.) God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, you may ask " okay, if he doesn't, why are people still going?" The answer to that is simply bc of man's free will. He won't force you to do anything , even if it's living in a world free from death and suffering. Everyone is accountabile for their own actions a, and not accepting his gift is something you'll have to be accountable for as well, if you don't accept a free gift into heaven, there's no where else you can go except ,down there, only two options ,no in between. 


2.) Why is it so scary? You said it not me, you percieved it as scary, when that's simply how things are going to happen, Im sorry if it scares you, but that's what happens at the end. Hell is scary place and it is real, mankind doesn't take God seriously enough at his word, so sadly some will have to see for themselves b/c they don't believe him. It's kinda like asking ,why is death so scary , /c it just is. The thought of leaving behind friends ,family, and something soo familiar, and not knowing what lies aheaf is scary bc it's going to happen one day.... And on that day you will be judged and you will know where you will go, this can either be relieving or scary depending on where you go. 


3.) To the user who said God uses terror and what happened to love" All the terror and disease and death you see is a result of man's disobedience. Only listening and obeying Godbwill result in peace, which is why Heaven is the way it is, those that are in Heaven have obeyed,listened to and trusted in God and don't rebel which is why heaven will be a place without sickness,disease or death. If we didn't heaven would be just like earth. 


If yyou have more questions I'll try and answer them as best as I can, not debating, just discussing if thats ok


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## 7th.Streeter (May 11, 2011)

Another thing God isn't a feeling for , when I pray I don't "feel" him at all it's what He's *done for me* God operates through faith, you have to trust him, if you could see Him, then what's the point of trust? Also God did come to earth , not only did he come but he performed signs and miracles, and if they, the people lucky enough to see God perform miracles right in front of them didn't believe, why do you think you will if he showed up and proved himself to you? You and the people God was surrounded by are both human, and if they didn't believe, what fo you think you will do? Lastly, conversion/being saved/ born agin isn't based on empirical knowledge, what you can see but you have to have a new heart and trust Him . He knows when your faking.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

It is sick that something as powerful as a god would create hell in the first place if he loved us. Then instead of showing us he is real he commands illiterate and hypocritical phrophets to write his unreasonable commandments that go against our very nature. Essentially, it is like giving a toddler a revolver loaded and telling him not to play with it. It is unreasonable and unjust. I would write more and really express myself but it is a tad daunting via my cellphone. Believe what you want, but in the end it will make no difference, and before you think that is saddening, which is worse, just dying or burning forever in hell? Dont think for a second that you are following gods commandments to a tee because you are not so ill see you there


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Sugarslippers said:


> Hello, im not here to start anything ,


If you have preface a post like this, you had absolute knowledge that your intentions may be contrary to the forum rules. Regardless, it still does not exempt you.



Sugarslippers said:


> just give you an answer if that's what your looking for.


what makes you think ANYONE in the atheist support forum is seeking answers from you or your particular deity? This forum contains (mostly) rational thinking individuals that would know how to navigate to the spiritual forum, had they so desired.



Sugarslippers said:


> 1.) God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, you may ask " okay, if he doesn't, why are people still going?"


I assure you, if an atheist actually asked this question, it was purely rhetorical. No atheist would ever ask an irrational nonsensical question when he or she rejects the entire notion of god claims to begin with.



Sugarslippers said:


> The answer to that is simply bc of man's free will.


It has NOTHING to do with your concept of "man's free will". Your god created the the very scenario and conditions, that required him to intervene as a loophole, in his own plot.



Sugarslippers said:


> He won't force you to do anything , even if it's living in a world free from death and suffering.


Neither would Woden, Alfar, Zeus, Ra, Jord, Nerthus, Jupiter, Apollo, Atum, Horus, Osirus, Tiamut, Izanagi, Quetzalcoatl, and Janus as each of these has about as much authority and evidence as any string of letters youd identify as your god. However, your interpretation of "force" is a bit naive when you have a choice between accepting one thing or face an eternity of damnation as a consequence of a construct your god created.



Sugarslippers said:


> Everyone is accountabile for their own actions


Yes, to themselves and everyone around them for the good or harm ones actions may have on themselves and everyone around them. Why would you think and assert otherwise? Because a book told you?



Sugarslippers said:


> a, and not accepting his gift is something you'll have to be accountable for as well,


This is asinine. This is the definition of gift: "Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation." If there are repercussions for not accepting something, it by definition, isnt a gift. At the least, it's a bribe... at worst, it's coersion. If there are any requirements to receive something, it by definition, wouldnt be a gift. You should have called it what it really is- a loophole issued by the god, created to circumvent his own policies.



Sugarslippers said:


> if you don't accept a free gift into heaven, there's no where else you can go except ,down there, only two options ,no in between.


Thats an interesting false dichotomy of which you have absolutely no evidence even exists outside of the declaration that: god is real, because the bible tells you so, and the bible is true, because it was inspired by god. However, there is nothing free about accepting such a proposition. You are necessarily bound to all the baggage associated with it. This is insanely irrational when you have NO evidence to even support such a conclusion.



Sugarslippers said:


> 2.) Why is it so scary?


The idea of Hell does sound scary thus making your god an *** hole for creating it and issuing an ultimatum necessitating belief and worship.



Sugarslippers said:


> You said it not me, you percieved it as scary,


ummmmm??! Everyone should perceive it as scary or there would be absolutely no other reason in believing in your deity over the Keebler elves or Rainbow Brite.



Sugarslippers said:


> when that's simply how things are going to happen,


how do you know? Oh yeah, I know this one... god is real, because the bible tells you so, and the bible is true, because it was inspired by god.



Sugarslippers said:


> Im sorry if it scares you,


About as much a the robeasts in Voltron scare me. Rest assure though, Voltron is the defender of the universe and will save us all from Zarkon. Youtube Voltron if you are a Voltron atheist!



Sugarslippers said:


> but that's what happens at the end.


how do you know? Oh yeah... god is real, because the bible tells you so, and the bible is true, because it was inspired by god. However, making unfounded threats is the centerpiece of your religion. Otherwise, there is no point in believing it over any other rational choices.



Sugarslippers said:


> Hell is scary place and it is real,


You just said not a few sentences up "Why is it so scary?" as if you didn't think so. It would only be scary if it were infact demonstrated to even exist outside of theist's mind. This isn't the case so I don't find it any more scary than Hades, Hetgwauge, O le nu'u-o-nonoa, Gehenna, Jahannam, Samsara, and the Klingon Gre'Thor.



Sugarslippers said:


> mankind doesn't take God seriously enough at his word,


Dont blame mankind for having critcal thinking skills when theres no other justification outside of faith. Faith by definition, is believing something for no good reason.



Sugarslippers said:


> so sadly some will have to see for themselves b/c they don't believe him.


That only makes your god an *** hole when he presents no evidence to support his very own existence.



Sugarslippers said:


> It's kinda like asking ,why is death so scary , /c it just is.


No it isnt. Death is not scary and an absolute inevitability. It must truly scare you or you wouldnt need coping mechanisms.



Sugarslippers said:


> The thought of leaving behind friends ,family, and something soo familiar, and not knowing what lies aheaf is scary bc it's going to happen one day....


Yes but this has nothing to do with whether one believes in a deity. Why would you pretend you even know what happens after death? Oh yeah, your book told you.



Sugarslippers said:


> And on that day you will be judged and you will know where you will go, this can either be relieving or scary depending on where you go.


You had better hope its your god, and not the thousands of other gods, or you will face the wrath of your own atheism in those gods.



Sugarslippers said:


> 3.) To the user who said God uses terror and what happened to love" All the terror and disease and death you see is a result of man's disobedience.


Surely an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity wouldnt resort to such asshattery.



Sugarslippers said:


> Only listening and obeying Godbwill result in peace,


I hope you reread your own post. This is the ultimatum i was talking about. Your god created the situation that requires his salvation or face the consequences. However, I found lots of peace in not believing nonsense which absolutely counters your assertion.



Sugarslippers said:


> which is why Heaven is the way it is, those that are in Heaven have obeyed,listened to and trusted in God and don't rebel which is why heaven will be a place without sickness,disease or death. If we didn't heaven would be just like earth.


This is a coping mechanism for things you do not understand and plug that void with what makes you feel comfortable about your own existence. Id love for you to tell me why god would need to create an earthly realm to begin with. Whats the point?



Sugarslippers said:


> If yyou have more questions I'll try and answer them as best as I can, not debating, just discussing if thats ok


Question! *raises hand* What justification do you have for believing what you believe? Do you have evidence, outside of personal revelation and a book that asserts its own truth, for any rational person to consider? Id truly consider it, provided a rational justification. Your answer must absolutely and necessarily preclude faith, by the way.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Sugarslippers said:


> Another thing God isn't a feeling for , when I pray I don't "feel" him at all it's what He's *done for me*


Oh please! List anything he's "done" for you that I can't easily explain by rational explanations.



Sugarslippers said:


> God operates through faith, you have to trust him, if you could see Him, then what's the point of trust?


It's absolutely asinine that you'd even say this. What amount of gullibility does it take to post such a thing and actually embrace it?



Sugarslippers said:


> Also God did come to earth , not only did he come but he performed signs and miracles, and if they, the people lucky enough to see God perform miracles right in front of them didn't believe, why do you think you will if he showed up and proved himself to you?


What signs and miracles? All those people you claim saw these miracles weren't impressed or too lazy to write any first hand accounts of it. If I saw some crazy miracle ****, Id tweet about it right now and not wait 20-60 years after his death.



Sugarslippers said:


> You and the people God was surrounded by are both human, and if they didn't believe, what fo you think you will do?


Exactly what you'd expect any rational person to do. However, I can assure you that it wouldn't require faith. Of which, according to you, one apparently needs in order to believe. Faith is not required in determining what is true and simply believing something doesn't make it true either.



Sugarslippers said:


> Lastly, conversion/being saved/ born agin isn't based on empirical knowledge, what you can see but you have to have a new
> heart and trust Him .


It should be. Faith tells you nothing in whether something is true or not. Why would you assume any rational person should believe ANYTHING on something that cant be validated by empirical means? This is absolutely asninine. What a "new heart and trust Him" really means is: having the naivety and gullibility to accept something for no good reason, in complete absence of any evidence to support it.



Sugarslippers said:


> He knows when your faking.


Santa knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake!


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## Resonance (Feb 11, 2010)

I was going to attempt to tackle the whole God gives you a gift and then burns you if you don't do as you're told argument, but Foh_Teej seems to have pretty much destroyed that position. I approve :clap


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## MrBakura91 (Dec 11, 2011)

Because fear works well especially on people who are vulnerable. The guilt that comes out of it when you are a believer is powerful. Do these things scare you? I was a hard core believer for years I totally believed Revelations(interpretations of it) I'm an atheist now, there are a lot of great sources to read about Revelations and what its about in its historical context.Oh here's a funny quote I just found from Thomas Jefferson about it "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

It is sado-masochism defined. Religion is a personality disorder...


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

Foh_Teej said:


> what makes you think ANYONE in the atheist support forum is seeking answers from you or your particular deity? This forum contains (mostly) rational thinking individuals that would know how to navigate to the spiritual forum, had they so desired.


what makes you think ANYONE in the atheist support forum is seeking answers as to why a diety doesn't exist ?

rhetorical question, as long as ppl in this subforum are convinced a diety doesn't exist, there isn't need for counter arguments, like Sugarslippers did, or pro arguments, like you did, right ?; or it seems they aren't that convinced, it seems that all poeple enter here, all religions, or atheists, or whatever belief


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> what makes you think ANYONE in the atheist support forum is seeking answers as to why a diety doesn't exist ?


It sounds a bit malformed but if I read it as I think you mean it, I dont think anything like this any more than Id think there's anyone seeking answers to why elves do not exist. Who does this? If you mean 'atheists sitting on the fence' so-to-speak, wondering about what they actually feel, Im sure there are many. They know how to go to the spiritual forum as I pointed out. If I misinterpreted your words, please correct me. However, the OP clearly directed his post to atheists in his disgust for for the manner by which religious conduct themselves on their beliefs. Even if Sugarslippers was good intentioned, her post -perhaps even inadvertently- was a still nothing more than proselytization.



RenegadeReloaded said:


> rhetorical question, as long as ppl in this subforum are convinced a diety doesn't exist,


No it isnt, as it would be the improper use of a 'rhetorical question' in the first place.



RenegadeReloaded said:


> there isn't need for counter arguments, like Sugarslippers did, or pro arguments, like you did, right ?;


No. Debate is a wonderful method for discussing a subject -for people to evaluate what they believe and why- and hopefully draw logical conclusions from said discussion. Unfortunately, the rules of both spiritual and this forum discourage such and dare to be broken by the very nature of the topics.



RenegadeReloaded said:


> or it seems they aren't that convinced, it seems that all poeple enter here, all religions, or atheists, or whatever belief


This is the very reason I disagree with your previous quote.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

It's clearly that u haven't understood my point.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> It's clearly that u haven't understood my point.


"If I misinterpreted your words, please correct me."

Here is you opportunity to clarify your post.


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## 7th.Streeter (May 11, 2011)

Well, since you've told me your not looking for answers, I see no point in continuing this discussion, if youre not willing to learn


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## 7th.Streeter (May 11, 2011)

You said you could explain away some of my experiences, so before I go I'll list some. 

Me and my aunt aren't close , we barely speak. God gave me a dream about her in it she told me the problems she was having, not being able to pay her bills and ect. And when I went to church the next day , I told her about the dream and she said what I dreamt about was going on in her life. Like I said, I dont talk to her much, and didnt talk to her the day before and no one rlse knew about her problems because she kept it to herself, so how else could I have known about my aunt's problem and been right If I had no idea what she was going through, except through God who sees all	and knows all alerted me to her problems?


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Sugarslippers said:


> Well, since you've told me your not looking for answers, I see no point in continuing this discussion, if youre not willing to learn


On the contrary! I am willing to learn and on a continual mission to look for answers. However, my endeavor will never include faith nor irrational justification. Logic, reason, and critical thinking are the best ways to determine what is most likely true.



Sugarslippers said:


> You said you could explain away some of my experiences, so before I go I'll list some.
> 
> Me and my aunt aren't close , we barely speak. God gave me a dream about her in it she told me the problems she was having, not being able to pay her bills and ect. And when I went to church the next day , I told her about the dream and she said what I dreamt about was going on in her life. Like I said, I dont talk to her much, and didnt talk to her the day before and no one rlse knew about her problems because she kept it to herself, so how else could I have known about my aunt's problem and been right If I had no idea what she was going through, except through God who sees all and knows all alerted me to her problems?


This is an argument from ignorance and incredulity. How do you possibly know it wasn't Athena, Odin, Sophia, Thoth or simply happenstance? You attribute a coincidence, of an alleged dream and subsequent event, with it being inspired by your god. I can't possibly disprove a personal revelation but I can point out the logically fallacious reasoning, in just plugging what ever you want to explain it, and and using it to rationally justify it to anyone else.

Also I said: "List anything he's "done" for you that I can't easily explain by rational explanations". Not list experiences and revelations.


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## 7th.Streeter (May 11, 2011)

Any other thing I would have listed would have been based on personal experience, because it's happening to me. The fact that you couldn't explain it away simply proves you can't explain eveything away. 

Lastly, before I became a christian I was into the occult astrology, hinduism, I was every where.... And all the time I spent delving into the ovcult have I ever had such a super natural occurance. Also, I know it's God ,more specifically Jesus, that's been giving me these dreams because right after I got saved I've been receiving these dreams. I have never been able to do this before, only after my conversion. 

Also Im glad to see you're willing to listen  but I have to go now so thid discussion will have to continue later I guess. Have a good day ,well night.


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## 7th.Streeter (May 11, 2011)

Also anything I list that God had done for me will be based on my personal experiences, and my experiences with God are much like the first example, so I can't set up my argument or whatever the way you want it to or in a way you can disprove it easily. One, that'll be lying on my part because my exp im telling you is true and two it would be like me letting you win if I had to shape my exp just so you could disprove it would show you couldn't really disprove it all, it just shows God's ways aren't our ways. And no one really knows how he operates.


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## 7th.Streeter (May 11, 2011)

I also find it very insulting that you claim my dream was based on ignorance when it turned out to be true. I strongly believe youre wrong and can't explain it. Everything God has done for me is pretty much like the first, so if you can't explain that experience you probably won't be able to explain the rest.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Sugarslippers said:


> Any other thing I would have listed would
> have been based on personal experience, because it's happening to me. The
> fact that you couldn't explain it away simply proves you can't explain
> eveything away.


You would be correct since I never made the claim that I could. You spun the initial statement and pulled words out of my mouth. You said: "it's what He's *done for me" I asked: "List anything he's "done" for you that I can't easily explain by rational explanations". I can't possibly explain your personal experience -by the very definition- anymore than you could explain someone's alien abduction story.

Ill ask again though, what has he done for you? Did he fix your toilet? Did he mow your lawn? Did he change your oil? Hang your curtains? Regardless, how are you even certain what you experienced was actually god and not the result of some mental imagery or some projection of your own mind? I'm not doubting you had experiences, but I do doubt what you think they mean. There are countless anecdotal cases of people dreaming, seeing, hearing, experiencing all sorts of crap from divine, spiritual, extraterrestrial, and paranormal sources. The easiest explanation is delusion and hallucination or some other altered state of mind. Sometimes its deliberately made up bull ****. Not that Im sugessting any of these pertain to you necessarily and I am in no way qualified to even assess such if they were.



Sugarslippers said:


> but Lastly, before I became a christian I was into the occult astrology,
> hinduism, I was every where.... And all the time I spent delving into the ovcult have I ever had such a super natural occurance. Also, I know it's God ,more specifically Jesus, that's been giving me these dreams because right after I got saved I've been receiving these dreams. I have never been able to do this before, only after my conversion.


Hmmm... that's certainly interesting but I hope you understand personal revelation will never justify belief to anyone else but you. The reason is simply no way of validating your experience. Not all christians have the same experience or even have experiences at all. Furthermore, virtually every other religion, past and present, claim similar experiences with their beliefs and god(s). Why would your god only contact a handful of people in differing ways? Do other gods also exist on account of experiences in those respective beliefs??



Sugarslippers said:


> Also Im glad to see you're willing to listen but I have to go now so thid
> discussion will have to continue later I guess. Have a good day ,well
> night.


I was willing to listen to borsello0216 and albert11 but unfortunately they put me on iggy



Sugarslippers said:


> I also find it very insulting that you claim my dream was based on ignorance when it turned out to be true. I strongly believe youre wrong and can't explain it. Everything God has done for me is pretty much like the first, so if you can't explain that experience you probably won't be able to explain the rest.


I suppose you would find it insulting since you apparently have no idea what it means. An 'argument from ignorance' is a logical fallacy in which a something is true because you cant prove it as false. More appropriately, it is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it or lack of evidence to the contrary. The incredulity part is an extention of an argument from ignorance that you lack any other explanation so you make up whatever you want or feel (it was god) to fill in the the blanks.

You said: " so how else could I have known about my aunt's problem and been right If I had no idea what she was going through, except through God who sees all and knows all alerted me to her problems?" You assumed this to be true without validation on grounds of "what else could it possibly be"?

I was not attacking you personally nor calling you ignorant. Google them.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

Sugarslippers said:


> Also anything I list that God had done for me will be based on my personal experiences, and my experiences with God are much like the first example, so I can't set up my argument or whatever the way you want it to or in a way you can disprove it easily. One, that'll be lying on my part because my exp im telling you is true and two it would be like me letting you win if I had to shape my exp just so you could disprove it would show you couldn't really disprove it all, it just shows God's ways aren't our ways. And no one really knows how he operates.


It's not about me "winning". I care about truth. I care about rational justification for beliving something. I have no desire to disprove your experience nor do I even care to. This is irrelevant as it is impossible in the first place. I never said nor insinuated that I could disprove your experience. Stop taking words out of my mouth. Regardless, your personal experience can not serve to justify anyone elses belief. What you think of "gods way" is completely irrelevant and what does that even have to do with the international space station?. You came into an antheist forum to proselytize your faith. You will undoubtedly get called out for it.


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## 7th.Streeter (May 11, 2011)

Well, what I listed is something that he has done for me :/ if you can't explain that, you won't be able to explain the rest, sorry. That's all I've got


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

You'll have to forgive me for not considering "having a dream" as something someone he did for you.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass (May 4, 2012)

Christainity, in many ways, is good. But when they go around preaching in agnostics and atheists faces aren't going to convert anybody, just make Christianity look like a bunch of morons trying to practically recruit people for a religion.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass (May 4, 2012)

Is God willing to prevent evil, but unable?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent. 
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him god.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass (May 4, 2012)

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> Is God willing to prevent evil, but unable?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> Is he able, but not willing?
> Then he is malevolent.
> ...


Epicures, 33 C.E.


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> Epicures, 33 C.E.


It's Epicurus, and 33 CE? What are you smoking?


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

Lmao

I was raised Christian. Took me to 20 to feel okay and not be trapped in that damn cult. It is entirely fear based. Nobody wants to be in hell one day, they want to be in heaven with their family. Even if this **** sounds foolish and like a fairy tale you believe it for a while as a "just in case" if you were raised like me, all Catholic family and all Catholic schools and friends. So creepy to look back on and when I tell my athiest friends they are creeped out haha. 

But, if you are Christian and honestly want to be that way and praying is a release and you love god, or as you do "G"od capital G, then that's fine. Just don't argue bible verses on this section because nobody is going to convert each other, it's hard enough in person it won't work online.


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## Unkn0wn Pleasures (Nov 24, 2011)

Nothing motivates like fear


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass (May 4, 2012)

albrecht said:


> It's Epicurus, and 33 CE? What are you smoking?


:umchill.


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## Dr Hobo Scratch MD (Jun 24, 2011)




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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

> Basically, it tell of how God will torture you and burn you alive for ever and ever and ever for being "wicked"...even though He made you that way...




This is not what the Bible teaches. 


Do not say, "Because of the Lord I left the right way"; for he will not do what he hates. Do not say, "It was he who led me astray"; for he had no need of a sinful man. The Lord hates all abominations, and they are not loved by those who fear him. It was he who created man in the beginning, and he left him in the power of his own inclination. If you will, you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice. He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish. Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him. For great is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power and sees everything; his eyes are on those who fear him, and he knows every deed of man. He has not commanded any one to be ungodly, and he has not given any one permission to sin. Sirach 15:11-20


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## xTKsaucex (Jun 23, 2010)

All religions use paranoia and terror to keep the flock from straying. I'm rational minded in that I don't believe in fictional characters.


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## xTKsaucex (Jun 23, 2010)

Dr Hobo Scratch MD said:


>


:teeth:clap


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