# What is your take on the "Doomer/Gloomer" Subculture?



## Eternal Solitude (Jun 11, 2017)

I might be a bit late to the party here, but there is this subculture (if you can call it that) that has been popping up in memes, reddit, youtube and other online forums as of late. What's strange about this group is that it encompasses redpillers, men, women, incels,neets, aspies, people with social anxiety, people with depression, etc... while all of these various groups have different idiosyncrasies you could say that clusters of these individual have converged and found common ground in a Venn diagram like fashion within this subculture.

As their name implies these people have a bleak outlook towards life in general.They have swallowed the nihilistic (non-hedonistic) black pill and await for society to collapse.

Most of these people are millennials that feel alienated within their age group but at the same time feel that older generations have lost touch with the modern world. Meanwhile younger generations seem infantilized and silly to them.

Here are some memes that convey much better what I am trying to say:




























Some vids:


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## TheForestWasDark (May 23, 2015)

I relate except I gave up drinking. My dad is a boomer who plays guitar with his buddies while I sit at home and only go on nightwalks. Oh and I like the Smiths as-well.


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## ScorchedEarth (Jul 12, 2014)

Damn, that's me, except the only substance I'm addicted to is sugar.


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

can relate to 80%


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

Eternal Solitude said:


>


 ....It's like looking in a mirror &#128558; when I had no job or gym membership, the job requires being outside in daytime, so I am trying.


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## Maslow (Dec 24, 2003)

I think that's a pretty good representation of the white working class in America today. They have no hope. It's no wonder there's an opioid epidemic.

Then again, that's pretty much how I felt during my 20s, too. Of course, I had no hope for the future and never thought I'd reach the age of 30.

At least when I was a doomer, music was a lot better.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Yes I started getting recommended videos of that stuff on YT a few months back. I think it was probably that they keep using The Smiths and other postpunk music.

Slavic people seem to relate a lot to this stuff:






Lowering the pitch is a bit of a half assed remix thing though.

I'm actually a bit too old for the main demographic though I have seen 'late 20s doomer' as well floating around.










I don't think it really incorporates redpill seems more blackpill.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Maslow said:


> I think that's a pretty good representation of the white working class in America today. They have no hope. It's no wonder there's an opioid epidemic.
> 
> Then again, that's pretty much how I felt during my 20s, too. Of course, I had no hope for the future and never thought I'd reach the age of 30.
> 
> At least when I was a doomer, music was a lot better.


Yes someone I know from a Discord server OD'd on some benzos earlier today, had to go to hospital. They have an addiction but the doctor gave them some anyway apparently.... They made a joke at the hospital about the epidemic but apparently it didn't go over well.

In Canada too (I know the US likes to hand out that stuff like candy.)

But yes they are pain killers literally so definitely the class of drugs that would be abused in the current era.


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## funnynihilist (Jul 29, 2014)

I like it. It's like a little glimmer of non-compliance that the millennial generation seemed to miss.
You'd have to be either a moron or extremely rich not to see that the future is not bright for the average person.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

No offence but I find it pretty boring - and predictable. Everyone goes through these phases don't they? We did too - we just didn't have the internet to talk about it endlessly with other people supposedly going through the same thing. I think everyone sort of sees the world as hopeless when they're young - at least some of the time.

Back then we didn't have the internet though - so we couldn't dwell on it endlessly with a whole pile of other people. And there wasn't any social media where we could show everyone how cool we apparently were because we hate everything. It's sort of annoying.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

funnynihilist said:


> I like it. It's like a little glimmer of non-compliance that the millennial generation seemed to miss.
> You'd have to be either a moron or extremely rich not to see that the future is not bright for the average person.


I wasn't sure but the fact that it's pissing people off who don't get it, is probably significant in itself.


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## funnynihilist (Jul 29, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I wasn't sure but the fact that it's pissing people off who don't get it, is probably significant in itself.


It's a tiny bit of pushback, albeit a self destructive one sometimes, in these days of hivemind, phone staring, #blessed, zombie optimists.
I think it pisses people off because it isn't #think positive!


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

funnynihilist said:


> It's a tiny bit of pushback, albeit a self destructive one sometimes, in these days of hivemind, phone staring, #blessed, zombie optimists.
> I think it pisses people off because it isn't #think positive!


But isn't think positive just an American thing. We definitely don't have all that here - thank Christ. That would annoy the **** out of me.


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## funnynihilist (Jul 29, 2014)

harrison said:


> But isn't think positive just an American thing. We definitely don't have all that here - thank Christ. That would annoy the **** out of me.


Yes, there is this idea sewn into American culture that everything will always work out for the best if you can just get your attitude right.
Meanwhile the average American is swimming in debt, taking loads of pharma, eats garbage, and hates their job. #blessed

But as a myopic American I assumed the whole world is kinda like that.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

funnynihilist said:


> Yes, there is this idea sewn into American culture that everything will always work out for the best if you can just get your attitude right.
> Meanwhile the average American is swimming in debt, taking loads of pharma, eats garbage, and hates their job. #blessed
> 
> *But as a myopic American I assumed the whole world is kinda like that*.


I think the rest of the world knows this about Americans - that they don't realise not everyone is like them. There's a whole different world out there waiting to be discovered.  (no offence to you personally mate)

I think if I lived in that sort sort of culture I'd wake up and want to be violently ill pretty much straight away every morning. (again, no offence)


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## versikk (Nov 25, 2013)

This is dumb as shxt

'doomer'? Oh so you never heard of depression, alienation, anomie?

Fxxking looool
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

funnynihilist said:


> You'd have to be either a moron or extremely rich not to see that the future is not bright for the average person.


 This


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## donistired (Nov 29, 2018)

I find it a bit strange (just the fact that memes have become hardwired into our way of communicating/coping), but I relate to a lot of it. I think subcultures like this sometimes end up romanticizing a depression and hopelessness when there's nothing romantic about it, and people wear titles like "doomer" like a passing fashion trend which is silly to me. But that doesn't mean there isn't any reality to it. Classifications like this just seem to naturally arrive--it's just way to define the temperament of a generation or particular sub-group. I imagine it can provide some solace/solidarity for people who feel isolated and hopeless. Don't see anything wrong with that aspect of the "doomer" subculture.


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I don't think it really incorporates redpill seems more blackpill.


the thing about games and gamedev lol. not really black pill but vystopia, climate change, apocalypse, etc. but i'm a bit older... general cynicism and hopelessness is pretty widespread since trump etc. so no wonder people can relate.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

funnynihilist said:


> Yes, there is this idea sewn into American culture that *everything will always work out for the best if you can just get your attitude right.*





harrison said:


> I think the rest of the world knows this about Americans - that they don't realise not everyone is like them. There's a whole different world out there waiting to be discovered.


 I don't know. I have been online for a long time and I have pretty much ran into that line of thinking that @funnynihilist has described pretty much everywhere. No matter where the people are from. The American version of it might be more objectionable to you but there's a flavor of it for every part of the world and it all pretty much sounds the same once you've tasted every conceivable flavor of it.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

Honestly? I think they are a bunch of morons, that spend far too much time on social media.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

WillYouStopDave said:


> I don't know. *I have been online for a long time *and I have pretty much ran into that line of thinking that @funnynihilist has described pretty much everywhere. No matter where the people are from. The American version of it might be more objectionable to you but there's a flavor of it for every part of the world and it all pretty much sounds the same* once you've tasted every conceivable flavor of it*.


I don't think we generally buy into all that positive thinking stuff here. If someone started spouting all that crap at work or something here I think most people would just think they'd sent him over to LA for a seminar or something.

Your average Australian would probably look at each other and roll their eyes. Some would play along because they'd be afraid they'd lose their job and some would burst out laughing.

Then there'd be people like me dry retching in the bathroom.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

zonebox said:


> Honestly? I think they are a bunch of morons, that spend far too much time on social media.


Bingo.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

harrison said:


> Bingo.


If you want to hear more, be sure to support me on patreon. Our voices can only be heard, through viewers like you. If you pledge $5.00 a month, you will get to see my messages before anyone else, and there is a chance that I may respond to you. Be sure to like, subscribe, and recommend me to your friends.

Also, the end is nigh!


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

zonebox said:


> If you want to hear more, be sure to support me on patreon. Our voices can only be heard, through viewers like you. If you pledge $5.00 a month, you will get to see my messages before anyone else, and there is a chance that I may respond to you. *Be sure to like, subscribe, *and recommend me to your friends.
> 
> Also, the end is nigh!


Come on mate - you forgot to mention I should click on the bell icon too so I'm notified when you post some new stuff.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

harrison said:


> Come on mate - you forgot to mention I should click on the bell icon too so I'm notified when you post some new stuff.


Gah! I will make sure to remember that in my next message. Now pardon me, while I completely contradict the past message I had stated, in an attempt to appease your desire to feel oppressed by a group of people that you have had no real experience with nor have had a regular experience of being oppressed by. They are after your freedom after all! They are also trying to get me banned from twitter! Those evil *******s!

Edit:
Be sure to support me on patreon, or you will suffer horrible consequences!


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

zonebox said:


> Honestly? I think they are a bunch of morons, that spend far too much time on social media.


.....Well it's a tough job but someone's gotta do it, morons are dedicated to making everyone else look good :lol


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## Memories of Silence (May 15, 2015)

It's not a new thing, but the Internet can make it look like it is, or like it's more common than it probably is. I can only relate to some parts of it, but I think most people can.

Most people don't seem to have much hope for the future (in general) anymore, and it's common to think "the world has gone mad" or "what happened to people?" which could be a reason for why so many people have depression or anxiety.


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## In a Lonely Place (Mar 26, 2012)

harrison said:


> No offence but I find it pretty boring - and predictable. Everyone goes through these phases don't they? We did too - we just didn't have the internet to talk about it endlessly with other people supposedly going through the same thing. I think everyone sort of sees the world as hopeless when they're young - at least some of the time.
> 
> Back then we didn't have the internet though - so we couldn't dwell on it endlessly with a whole pile of other people. And there wasn't any social media where we could show everyone how cool we apparently were because we hate everything. It's sort of annoying.


Absolutely 100%

It wasn't much fun back in the day when people were all alone, feeling like freaks and not imagining that others felt the same. Mental health issues were massively ignored, stigmatized and ridiculed by the masses.
What's going on today is nothing special or new apart from the memes,video's,moody pictures and forums for people to consume and reinforce their angst.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

zonebox said:


> If you want to hear more, be sure to support me on patreon. Our voices can only be heard, through viewers like you. If you pledge $5.00 a month, you will get to see my messages before anyone else, and there is a chance that I may respond to you. Be sure to like, subscribe, and recommend me to your friends.
> 
> Also, the end is nigh!


I get the feeling you've completely missed the point.



harrison said:


> I don't think we generally buy into all that positive thinking stuff here. If someone started spouting all that crap at work or something here I think most people would just think they'd sent him over to LA for a seminar or something.
> 
> Your average Australian would probably look at each other and roll their eyes. Some would play along because they'd be afraid they'd lose their job and some would burst out laughing.
> 
> Then there'd be people like me dry retching in the bathroom.


You do seem to be overly positive most of the time (hence criticising anyone complaining,) but I think it's because you've had different life experiences to a lot of posters here.

Most of the time it's not really true positivity but an idea that struggling without complaining is virtuous. I don't think that most people are genuinely 100% happy they just think that fitting in is more important and some people have less issues than others. They look down on people who do because they see it as low status.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

andy1984 said:


> the thing about games and gamedev lol. not really black pill but vystopia, climate change, apocalypse, etc. but i'm a bit older... general cynicism and hopelessness is pretty widespread since trump etc. so no wonder people can relate.


Yeah it made me lol too. I have a background in that area myself, though not into it now. Not programming either though (art,) although I did dabble _very _ briefly in programming on/off.


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## 3stacks (Sep 27, 2014)

I can relate to some of that just not the part where it says not wanting to get better. I do want to get better I'm just not sure it's possible since I've tried which leads me to the suicidal part


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> *You do seem to be overly positive most of the time (hence criticising anyone complaining,*) but I think it's because you've had different life experiences to a lot of posters here.
> 
> Most of the time it's not really true positivity but an idea that struggling without complaining is virtuous. I don't think that most people are genuinely 100% happy they just think that fitting in is more important and some people have less issues than others. They look down on people who do because they see it as low status.


How does being optimistic directly translate into criticising someone? Have you seen me criticising people that are complaining or upset on here very often?

My experiences have probably been quite different to a lot of people here, that's true - but I've also had a lot of bad times. I just don't particularly want to talk about it too much with a bunch of people on the internet. That might be partly a generational thing. But I think it's just the way I am - I tend to deal with things myself. Plus as you say - my experience has been different, so I have good reason to expect things to change for the better again as they usually have in the past.

I'm also quite often slightly manic - even on here. That might have something to do with it too.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I get the feeling you've completely missed the point.


I don't see the point, I really don't, thankfully, I don't. I think I see past the point.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

The thirst for a label.

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

I guess I kind of get the invalidating replies. i feel the same way about Others.


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## sanpellegrino (Sep 15, 2016)

Dear god. I love the illustrations.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

zonebox said:


> I don't see the point, I really don't, thankfully, I don't. I think I see past the point.


I mean when I say you didn't get the point it's because you seemed to be claiming it was some group of people who might make a YT or instagram post begging for subscribers, when really it's just a bunch of people venting on sites like 4chan or for that matter this forum.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I mean when I say you didn't get the point it's because you seemed to be claiming it was some group of people who might make a YT or instagram post begging for subscribers, when really it's just a bunch of people venting on sites like 4chan or for that matter this forum.


I think the e celebrities of today, push out a narrative that many people gobble up, in order to keep people coming back, these e celebs constantly push out fear, anger, and whatever it takes, to ensure they make some money from their viewers. As a result, a lot of people who are constantly bombarded with this absolute rubbish, are lead into a state of mind that is doomer/gloomer. It is like electric meth for the brain, nasty stuff, highly addictive, and leaves a person a hollow shell of their former self.

It is the reason why I said I think they are morons, they don't realize they are being manipulated and keep coming back for more. It is destroying their lives, but they can't get enough of it. Like moths to a bulb, they keep bopping their heads, but can't resist it, no matter how much it burns.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

zonebox said:


> I think the e celebrities of today, push out a narrative that many people gobble up, in order to keep people coming back, these e celebs constantly push out fear, anger, and whatever it takes, to ensure they make some money from their viewers. As a result, a lot of people who are constantly bombarded with this absolute rubbish, are lead into a state of mind that is doomer/gloomer. It is like electric meth for the brain, nasty stuff, highly addictive, and leaves a person a hollow shell of their former self.
> 
> It is the reason why I said I think they are morons, they don't realize they are being manipulated and keep coming back for more. It is destroying their lives, but they can't get enough of it. Like moths to a bulb, they keep bopping their heads, but can't resist it, no matter how much it burns.


This isn't coming from e-celebrities. E-celebrities tend to push simplistic woo/positive thinking superficial type stuff. They're not overly negative, because they're generally more privileged than the people who make these memes who the whole of society looks down on.

edit:

It originated on 4chan (well the 'Doomer' thing did, 'Gloomer' might be the reddit hipster upcycle):



> Gloomer refers to several Wojak characters spread on 4chan describing young adults between ages 22 and 27 who lead an antisocial and uninspired life. While the earliest variation of Gloomer depicted the character as a 27-year-old female, a male version of the character gained spread in April 2019.





> Doomer is a variation of the Wojak character that is typically characterized as an early 20's male who suffers from depression and has a bleak outlook on the world, in contrast to the 30 Year-Old Boomer. The character is often discussed on various 4chan boards in the context of mental health, drug addiction, economic strife and anti-semitism.


https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/gloomer

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/doomer


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

zonebox said:


> I think the e celebrities of today, push out a narrative that many people gobble up, in order to keep people coming back, these e celebs constantly push out fear, anger, and whatever it takes, to ensure they make some money from their viewers. As a result, a lot of people who are constantly bombarded with this absolute rubbish, are lead into a state of mind that is doomer/gloomer. It is like electric meth for the brain, nasty stuff, highly addictive, and leaves a person a hollow shell of their former self.
> 
> It is the reason why I said I think they are morons, they don't realize they are being manipulated and keep coming back for more. It is destroying their lives, but they can't get enough of it. Like moths to a bulb, they keep bopping their heads, but can't resist it, no matter how much it burns.


I related to it but I have no interest in "e celebrities". idk who you are talking about, who are the e celebrities?

I think you're just stereotyping... unless you have some evidence to back up your claims. electric meth also sounds pretty made up. I mean television has been around for a long time. would agree with you more generally that entertainment in general, from television onwards has taken over peoples lives. this is part of the reason I relate to the meme in the first place.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

andy1984 said:


> I related to it but I have no interest in "e celebrities". idk who you are talking about, who are the e celebrities?
> 
> I think you're just stereotyping... unless you have some evidence to back up your claims. electric meth also sounds pretty made up. I mean television has been around for a long time. would agree with you more generally that entertainment in general, from television onwards has taken over peoples lives. this is part of the reason I relate to the meme in the first place.


People like Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones, PJ Watson, Sargon, the list really does go on and on. Most of them have hundreds of thousands of subscribers and rolling around in the dough, spewing their typical rubbish. If you want to make money on youtube, just follow their lead and you will be rolling in it. People who typically spew hate, paranoia, conspiracy, those are the kind of people I'm talking about.. They are incredibly popular, by all means e celebrities.

electric meth was made up.


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

zonebox said:


> People like Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones, PJ Watson, Sargon, the list really does go on and on. Most of them have hundreds of thousands of subscribers and rolling around in the dough, spewing their typical rubbish. If you want to make money on youtube, just follow their lead and you will be rolling in it. People who typically spew hate, paranoia, conspiracy, those are the kind of people I'm talking about.. They are incredibly popular, by all means e celebrities.
> 
> electric meth was made up.


sounds like a separate issue from the doomer thing. I probably need to go back and look at them again, but I didn't see anything like that mentioned.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

zonebox said:


> People like Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones, PJ Watson, Sargon, the list really does go on and on. Most of them have hundreds of thousands of subscribers and rolling around in the dough, spewing their typical rubbish. If you want to make money on youtube, just follow their lead and you will be rolling in it. People who typically spew hate, paranoia, conspiracy, those are the kind of people I'm talking about.. They are incredibly popular, by all means e celebrities.
> 
> electric meth was made up.


Their philosophy (not sure you could say Alex Jones has one, mostly just fun in an eccentric way,) is the complete opposite of this meme... And the meme is purely a description of life for many 20 something year olds.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Their philosophy (not sure you could say Alex Jones has one, mostly just fun in an eccentric way,) is the complete opposite of this meme... And the meme is purely a description of life for many 20 something year olds.


Dammit, I'm getting too confused in my old age and memes are way too hard to keep up with anymore. I thought Doomer/Gloomer/Clown World/Black Pilled, were all rolled up into one.


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## Shredder (Apr 19, 2011)

Into the void by Black Sabbath (before memes or Reddit were ever around)

*Back on earth the flame of life burns low
Everywhere is misery and woe
Pollution kills the air, the land, the sea
Man prepares to meet his destiny, yeah!
*
In regards to the impacts of the positivity movement, Barbara Ehrenreich's "Smile or Die: How Positive Thinking Fooled America and the World" is an interesting read.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

zonebox said:


> Dammit, I'm getting too confused in my old age and memes are way too hard to keep up with anymore. I thought Doomer/Gloomer/Clown World/Black Pilled, were all rolled up into one.


Never heard of Clown World (Oh OK it's the clown Pepe stuff.) Black pill probably overlaps with Doomer/Gloomer. The YouTubers you mentioned would be better described as 'red pill' (edit: except Alex Jones, he's partly larping as a schizophrenic person to get people who are high in schizotypy to buy his stuff, and partly ranting about transhumanism and DMT,) as I said Gloomer seems to be an 'upcycled' version of the Doomer meme:










A lot of stuff starts on 4chan and then spreads to other areas later. Most memes aren't inherently political, but people tend to frown on the ones that get picked up by /pol/


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


>


 This looks like a cartoon Elon Musk when he wasn't an old man.










(I don't know. Something about the generic (and odd) person vibe of Musk cracks me up. :lol


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

WillYouStopDave said:


> This looks like a cartoon Elon Musk when he wasn't an old man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hm maybe a bit, looks like he never had much hair though. I figured they were going for a vaguely dark nerd/half assed post-punk/emo fan vibe. It looks like he's wearing eyeliner but I'm pretty sure it's meant to be dark circles from lack of sleep but then 'good sleep schedule' that someone added conflicts lol.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

Fredly, I think it's awesome that it's become trendy to see reality for what it is. Even if they're not quite digging as deep as they should and it's kind of a superficial pop culture thing that will obviously go out of style in a few years or a couple decades or something.

It's like one day some dude woke up and said "Holy ****! This whole thing is not gonna end well! I need to tell everybody!" And he just happened to be someone who had a large audience. And everyone was like "Damn! This dude has a point!"


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm getting older so the labels are unfamiliar to me. However, just glancing at the memes, it seems like run of the mill depressed, anxious, avoidant/schizoid young pple. Pple with mental health difficulties. Types that have always been around. Only difference is everyone has access to the internet nowadays so online communities can form around **** that has been going on forever. Nothing new, just a different/defined label with more pple able to find each other and commiserate, imo.

There are many struggling. Always have been, likely always will be. The internet just makes everyone more visible and connected.


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## ShotInTheDark (Nov 4, 2017)

Very relatable, except drinking and smoking...
I have very dark sense of humor, so these things can be funny to me...


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## SASsier1 (Jun 19, 2019)

Some kind of doomer and gloomer subculture has been around forever. It's nothing new. There was a "slacker" Gen X subculture in the 90s. The core age now is 52. In my day - grunge, Nirvana, and Smashing Pumpkins were big. It was very cool to be depressed and listening to music you thought was cool. And then there was the Emo period in the late 2000s. 

They're always coming up with the latest and greatest self-consciously sad and edgy subcultures. 

I really hate the simple, dark emo-like quotes on Pinterest. They're a bunch of dumb kids trying to glorify and glamorize their worthless lives. 

Even the beatniks and the Jack Kerouac crowd (uggh) were doomer and gloomers of some type, and they're worshipped and overrated for supposedly being cool, alternative, and "counterculture."

I'm never allowed into any subculture. I'm just rejected and seen with contempt, where ever I am.


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## bad baby (Jun 10, 2013)

It seems like mostly an age thing. These(^) subcultures invariably appeal to kids in their late teens-early 20s, where some small event or upset can feel like the end of the world. But when one gets a bit older and gains some perspective, looking back on past eras - every generation had their shxt to deal with (k-war, v-war, '80s recession, '00s recession crisis, etc). And they always managed to survive and come out the other end intact. Human beings are more resilient than we think we are, probably. Unless dinosaurs come back and eat us all or something - then we're fxxked.

I didn't really the impression that the beatniks were depressing, though. They just seemed to me to be more into the whole spiritual/mysticism thing, away from the happy shiny polished surfacy image of the '40s-50s and looking more inward/introspectively, which would undoubtedly mean dealing with some of the darker parts of one's own psyche.

That said, though, maybe the post-War golden era did make people a bit too careless and negligent of the consequences down the road. The world that the millennials at inheriting from their parent generations does look rather bleak. I don't wanna blame the boomers...


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## SASsier1 (Jun 19, 2019)

^I don't understand why people fail to quote or mention, but I appreciate that. If I delete a comment, the quote stays there on the internet forever.

The beatniks and Kerouac aren't as overtly doomer-and-gloomer as the Gen X Slackers, the Joy Division/synth pop/punk rock crowd, the Nirvana/grunge crowd, emo, goth, or today's newest subculture emphasized in this thread.

But I still put the beatniks/Kerouac in something related to the doomer-and-gloomer subculture. *They're all still Western, self-conscious, pretentious, narcissistic, and self-glorifying subcultures. *

Pinterest appeals to women my age, and the quotes/images there are so shallow and painful to read. There's the "positivity" quotes, glorified by Oprah/Ellen/Eckhardt Tolle and that whole New Agey subculture. The positivity quotes make me even more depressed - and studies have shown that doing gratitude exercises can make people even more depressed.

Pinterest also has tons of emo/goth sort of quotes/images that very vainly and shallowly glorifies being "sad," dark, suicidal, liking the rain/blackness, etc.


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## bad baby (Jun 10, 2013)

^Ok good to know; I won't quote you then.

The punk mvmt actually seems pretty uplifting to me. Sure it's angry and aggressive, but it wasn't all negative, there's a sense of self-agency, 'The Establishment' has let us down so we gotta take things into our own hands. Regardless of what it has actually accomplished, I like that kind of grassroots energy, that - dare I say it - sense of _empowerment_ of the masses.

Grunge otoh (which can be partially traced back to punk) was incredibly self-defeating, which probably explains why it didn't last too long, and didn't seem to have as wide-reaching of an appeal as some of the other movements. And it seems like everyone was pretty sick of being depressed by the late '90s-'00s, where we started to see this wave of mindless superficial happy poppy drivel as a reaction to that. I grew up during this period and it was fantastic, we hardly felt a blip of the doom&gloom that preceded us.

What are these studies you speak of? I'm curious. Do you have a link?

And yeah it's useless to tell depressed people to just 'be positive'. In order to be positive you need to first get to neutral first. If you try to run before you walk, then you're just going to fall a bunch of times and get frustrated and end up hating it.

I think the reason that a lot of this self-help stuff comes across as stupid and shallow is because the people preaching it don't have true insight into the actual transformation process. They either don't connect with the pain of their audience, or they're not as 'enlightened' as they want us to believe.

It's encouraging to hear the perspectives of people who have managed to lift themselves out of low points, though - those who are honest, who can admit that they still struggle with shxt and are not trying to sell you an image or whatever. But These kinds of people are hard to come by.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

The goth subculture isn't negative at all really.. (at least not in that woe is me way, I do think it's probably related to antisocial tendencies but in a controlled way, but obviously most people dislike that.) It's also not glorifying suicide that's more of the external stereotype. Or more of the external stereotype of emo, which was also fairly misunderstood especially since there was the music genre that started in the 80s (related to post-hardcore,) and then later the 2000s fashion/music thing which was separate. But sometimes goth and emo are conflated as well but they have a pretty different vibe despite superficial similarities.

Anyway the goth subculture aside from being a style and music genre, is really just a glorification of darkness and subversion. It has nothing to do with suicidality or negativity and is usually more about transformation. Most of the people into that start being into it at a young age:



> As a young girl I discovered that I preferred horror movies to the children's films most kids my age were watching.
> 
> I was only five years old when I first sat through an entire film. And I thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it.
> 
> After this I was hooked. My dad was a preacher, which did limit the amount I could get away with watching, but the desire to watch more of them was there.


https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/22/goth...a-passion-for-the-dark-and-beautiful-9595972/

(whether they ID as goth or not, I personally don't at least in the self limiting sense of applying a single label, but I was also drawn to dark stuff at a young age)

Also the DIY aspect of the punk subculture is pretty great.


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## SASsier1 (Jun 19, 2019)

bad baby said:


> ^Ok good to know; I won't quote you then.
> 
> The punk mvmt actually seems pretty uplifting to me. Sure it's angry and aggressive, but it wasn't all negative, there's a sense of self-agency, 'The Establishment' has let us down so we gotta take things into our own hands. Regardless of what it has actually accomplished, I like that kind of grassroots energy, that - dare I say it - sense of _empowerment_ of the masses.
> 
> ...


The problem with "carroting" instead of quoting or mentioning is that I'm not notified. I need to remember to check for responses in a thread.

It's fine to quote me if you wish - I don't think I'll ever have a need to delete these comments between us because they're pretty innocuous.

Yeah, punk rock is supposed to be empowering, about being against The Establishment. I actually learned not long ago that there was this brief punk rock era in the late 70s-early 80s in my city. Even though it seemed they stressed some level of equality - I could still feel the racism. There was even one punk rocker who sang about something that seemed very racist to me - though I can't remember exactly what it is now.

There's some doom-and-gloom crossover in punk rock. Joy Division is super doom and gloom - the front man even committed suicide at his peak - the ultimate marker of doom and gloom and worship after his death. Nirvana was huge, but became much larger than life, and much more romanticized, after Cobain committed suicide.

Synth pop - Depeche Mode was a big doom and gloom one. Also influenced by punk rock. I'm very jaded about all types of rock/pop, but I still LOVE Depeche Mode in the most visceral way.

I think grunge lives on. I'm always surprised to see young people, like teens, worshipping Nirvana.

I'm depressed at heart because I was a teen when Nirvana/grunge/Smashing Pumpkins were big. We tend to be stuck in our teens/20s - whatever the vibe/zeitgeist was at the time.

Interesting you have such an in-depth understanding of all these rock movement/genres, and various counterculture/New Agey subcultures.

I Googled briefly and couldn't find the studies that showed gratitude made people feel worse - but if I Googled more, I might find them. Here's 2 articles saying gratitude doesn't help:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-homework-myth/201807/the-overselling-gratitude
https://www.time-to-change.org.uk/blog/why-you-shouldnt-tell-someone-depression-be-grateful

In my own experience, doing gratitude exercises just made me feel worse, with a melancholy pain in my chest. I knew I was lying to myself when I was doing gratitude exercises - because I truly don't have anything in my life, and I suffer much more than others.


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## bad baby (Jun 10, 2013)

Whoa permanently banned ... did I miss something?

My impression is that punk isn't meant to be very cerebral and/or self-aware. Whatever angry aggressive impulse comes to mind, let it out, man. And some of those ideas will happen to be unsavory and perhaps even racist. That's alright though, punk rockers are only human and Art isn't meant to be a moral lesson. In fact people seem to shxt on stuff that have a clear proselytic message.

Came across this article the other day in defense of 'nasty art' - and I guess it applies equally well to things like the doomer/gloomer subcultures. The point is that when a piece of art makes us uncomfortable, instead of dismissing or rejecting it based on instinctual repulsion, we could benefit from looking at the reasons why and what this tells us about our value judgments. I'll admit it may be too much work, though, and only for the hardcore geeks.

I have a rough, very rough theory that the punk movement brought identity politics into the spotlight, and throughout the '80s people began to focus more on individuality and personal identity, culminating in '90s grunge - which was basically punk rock but turned inwards. In that sense it feels a bit decadent/bourgeois to me. No disrespect, I still enjoy it aesthetically in small doses, but that's about it.

Part of it is that I grew up in Asia and, at least where I was, it didn't leave much of a legacy. What I felt more at the time were the remnants of Britpop (late London Suede, Blur; early Coldplay), which as I recall some of those personalities have come right out and proclaimed themselves as the 'anti-grunge'. Then we moved - close to Seattle no less - and suddenly grunge was getting a lot more airplay.

As far as i can see, a whole generation above a certain age still feels nostalgic about it, and then there's the subportion of kids who are all like "I'm only 14 but Nirvana and SmashPump are my fave bands I was born in the wrong decade!!!!1!11". But outside of that everyone has moved on, I feel.

("I'm 14 but I _love_ Baroque music. I wish I was born a few centuries earlier in the 1500s on a serf farm and that Bach and Häñđêl were my feudal lords and masters!!!!1!!11!3.14")

EDM seems to be the defining sound of the current era. I don't get it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anyway. I could sit here all day and drone on and on about the evolution of subcultures and music and whatnot. Feel a bit like Grampa from The Simpsons, lol. "Back in _my_ day ... [falls asleep, loud snore]..."


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)




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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I quite like Nirvana's music because I grew up listening to them (even though I was 3 when Kurt Cobain committed suicide, though their greatest hits CD came out in 2001 and there was unreleased material on it,) and there was one Hole song I used to really like (Celebrity Skin,) and some post-grunge stuff.

But for me in my early-mid teens a lot of what I listened to was pop-punk and similar stuff so stuff with that sound tends to make me more nostalgic. Nu-metal doesn't really in the same way, even though I listened to a bunch of that and it was quite defining of the time period. Also really love Jack Off Jill, still listen to one of their albums fairly regularly. (They don't really fit into either of those genres, basically riot grrl-lite goth rock fusion.)






(this isn't a representative example just the track I've listened to most recently again by them hahah)






But tbh even though it's not classic punk at all MSI is the best punk-related band probably. Also spin off projects. It's the upbeat ironic edgyness we need but don't deserve.






^ The ****ing cats.

non live version though:






Also just the fact this exists:











No I can't link all their songs.


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## Tymes Rhymes (May 28, 2014)

I certainly find this new expression of nihilistic dread to be relatable. It is somewhat refreshing to know that as much time that I spend within my own thoughts, my thoughts are not particularly abnormal.

Certainly some folks will just view the mentality at its conception as young people just trying to be "edgy" but there is cause for concern when a whole group of twenty-somethings have a feeling of being disenfranchised and have such a disconnect with society as a whole. Can't please everyone, that much is evident from a few of the replies in this thread alone. The concept of "doomer" seems to be much more in parallel to the idea of truly understanding yourself, life, and just how ****ty everything actually is instead of just choosing to ignore it.

I've echoed many of these doomer sentiments in my time here as a posting member so the memes depicting the authors' thoughts are quite relatable.


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## versikk (Nov 25, 2013)

Tymes Rhymes said:


> just how ****ty everything actually is


you're confusing _your own feelings _with the Void of Suchness.

there neither is nor isn't nothing.

i'm angry at society and humanity too, but i know those are just opinions and feelings that hold no bearing or value outside human cognition.


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## Tymes Rhymes (May 28, 2014)

versikk said:


> i'm angry at society and humanity too, but i know those are just opinions and feelings that hold no bearing or value outside human cognition.


I understand this notion fully.


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