# Off-kilter, perv or both?



## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

This is the same man that I posted about recently that I had just met and when we went our separate ways he asked which apt. I live in so he could "drop by" sometime. 

He lives in my complex and a week ago I was feeding the ducks at the lake, which I really enjoy doing. It was just starting to get dark out and no one else was around. He was looking around when I saw him, so it's possible he was looking to see if I was there. He came over to where I was and we started talking again. Most of what he says is appropriate and fairly normal. He is quite animated when he talks, which is a little bit odd in itself for his age, I think. We were talking about rent and the construction of the apartments, which is poor quality, but it's still a nice place to live. Then he asks if I've ever had neighbors I could hear while they're having sex. He says he can hear his upstairs neighbors every night (or however often he said it was) and provided me with a few sound effects of a squeaking bed and, well, 'movements' as a visual aid of sorts, I guess. I don't recall what I said because I was looking away by then, laughing like I do when I can't believe what someone has just said or done, and thinking "There's no place like home. There's no place like home." Anyway, I managed to not say too much on the subject other than "So you live on the ground floor?" Well, the conversation continued on other normal topics. I started walking up the little sidewalk away from the lake. He walked with me so I stopped in front of the mailboxes so he wouldn't walk me home. We started talking about the complex "clubhouse" which was behind the mailboxes. It's a small room with a few treadmills, etc. He said he likes to exercise there with the light out. I can actually relate to that. 

By this time, it was pitch dark outside. He showed me the inside of the "clubhouse" and we stood there chatting for a long time with only light coming from out in the small hallway or something. It didn't bother me. Somehow we got on the subject of Goodwill and I said I just bought some jeans and stuff there. He then says, "Do you buy your bras at Goodwill?" What??!! Again, I turn away, laugh in disbelief, and wish I was at home. He assumes it's because of the idea of buying bras at Goodwill is "like buying underwear" there, as he says, not due to the odd topic he brought up. So we are now talking about bras. I know I should have asked him why is he asking about bras but I was still in shock and trying to act casual. Really, it was a longer discussion about bras than I cared for. 

So then he asks me either if I ever have been or if I wanted to go (I'm unclear on this) "dumpster diving." I don't recall my reaction but I'm sure it was basically What??!! again. He says not like the regular dumpsters we have here but where the rich people are. They, apparently, are taller than a person is when you stand inside one. I know that the rich folks do throw out some really fine things but it was, well, odd. He tells me how he got a couple of his friends (they all sound a bit odd, too, really) to go dumpster diving where the rich people are. However, a women friend of his was killed doing this. I am not kidding. She and a male friend had parted to go to different dumpsters and somehow she ended up missing and was found a week later at the landfill, dead by dump truck. Don't get me wrong, I don't mock people, especially in these times, who go dumpster diving from rich folks but the whole conversation was surreal at this point and I wanted to laugh (I didn't) because I felt that maybe I had finally gone insane or something. 

Finally, I maneuvered out the door of the clubhouse when I felt I was sort of getting cornered, so we stood outside for a few minutes talking, then I just turned away and said, "Well, I gotta get" and left. He said nice talking to you and I replied the same. I had started to say, "Well, I gotta get home" but I froze in the sentence because I thought as soon as I said "home" he'd either offer to walk me home or ask for my phone number. So I basically took off. I told one of my sisters back home what he has said and she said some guys will say inappropriate things to see how you react, to see if they can go further in that area of conversation. She's worried about me now. I know there are people who have grown up talking in a frank manner, though, and it's the norm for them. Actually, the bra conversation was the perviest part to me because he has no need for one, obviously, and didn't say he was looking for one for someone. I'm bound to keep running into him. He's lived here longer than I have. 

I'm kind of leaning toward pervy because of the bra talk, even more than the sex with sound effects and visual aid. To be honest, I don't think he'd physically attack me or something like that but I feel like, given the chance, he'd slip a drug into anything I was drinking if left alone. On the other hand, he may be nice but...odd. I don't mind the normal parts of the conversations we've had when I run into him but I'm not interested in being friends or talking on the phone or anything else. However, maybe I should be more wary of him?


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## StrangeSpirit (May 10, 2008)

As I said the last time you posted about this guy 

Very creepy... Very strange... 

As you said this is a tricky situation since he lives near you. I think the best thing you could due is try to show as little interest in him as possible and hope he'll take the hint.
When faced with people I don't want to deal with I just act very very cold. Most people back off pretty quick. Try to act totally disinterested like you're barely paying attention to anything he says, and avoid eye contact. Also try not to be drawn into a conversation. By talking to him he may think you like him or want him around. If he try's to corner you then try to make an excuse and get out of there. 

o and stay away from dumpsters...


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Whatever his motivations are, he sounds like an idiot. 

I'd suggest avoiding him especially if you're by yourself.


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## hyacinth_dragon (Dec 28, 2008)

What a peculiar guy.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I'd say both. I'd avoid this guy if I were you.


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## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

Okay now I'm kind of creeped out. Part of the reason I didn't want to be rude or blunt with him when he was inappropriate, other than my nature, is I'm afraid of possibly pissing him off and him wanting to get back at me. I've seen a lot of those kinds of movies. 

I just realized about two or three days ago that I can see his parking spot from my apt. (I'm on a second level) but I don't want to become watchful for his car and make myself paranoid because I walk past his lot to get to the mail and the lake.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

I see it now as the more it is brought up in your mind, the more you will try and get more out of it. Yes, the talk was about brassieres, but he didn't physically harm you. He could be a transvestite or something.

The neighbor sex thing was probably an attempt to gossip about neighbors or commiserate about the apartment complex.

The key is vigilance, not paranoia. We have enough of that with SA. 

Chances are that you won't have anything to drink around him except maybe a bottle of water if you drink it outside - Arizona is dry even in winter .


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## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

Hey MM,

I don't think he's a transvestite. He'd probably already know where to get bras. I gather you're leaning toward he's off-kilter. The bra thing just was too strange, though. 

My comment on the drink was more of explaining how I feel than literally. I don't think I'd trust him. BTW, you'd be surprised how much rain and flooding there is during monsoon season.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

I know people who just have no idea what is and is not a proper conversational topic. Sometimes it results in a really funny and interesting discussion of, like, the mechanics of porn or precisely how bodies decompose or something. But it takes a lot to weird me out.

I just think he has an odd personality. He sounds pretty harmless to me.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

No, he's not innocent. I firmly believe that. He's aggressive and doesn't respect you at all. He is hitting on you trying to FORCE a bond of familiarity first. He is basically dominating the conservation and throwing a bunch of random topics at you, some of them designed to make you uncomfortable because he likes to see women uncomfortable. You can put up with sexual comments like that from your own gender because that is nonoffensive in that case. There is a time and a place for everything. It sounds harmless to some degree because it is familiar to talk that way to your same sex friends but it is not harmless in this case. Your same sex friends wouldn't make you feel uncomfortable by that. _A good man builds trust and safety despite being an eccentric type of person. _
This is your red flag moment to avoid this person by being very surface and saying you are busy and can't talk and to keep up that line. Decent men are slower when they talk to women and wait for a response and do not fly onto the next topic to get you to react and they talk about subjects that are normal and have normal humor and this makes women feel comfortable and safe and the goal is to build trust, not what he is doing making you uncomfortable, making you feel unsafe and a loss of personal dignity.

Learn to know the difference between the good eccentric and the harmful eccentric. Good eccentric don't talk sexual period or dominate the conversation. They are polite and make you feel comfortable despite their eccentric manner and interests.

Your mind may be telling you to not judge him because he is a little strange, but it is not a good kind of strange and you have a right to judge him for that. A good kind of strange is where the person is odd by your standards or societies but you feel safe around them and can depend on a kindness from, natural warmth, and respectful talk despite that. Understand the difference between good strange and not good strange.

I would get to know other women in your building.


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## Canadian Brotha (Jan 23, 2009)

I would say maybe become a little friendly with other neighbors & find out what they know/think about this guy, if he's been there for some time they'll know something.

Other than that keeping any conversation short & simple when you do see him is the way to go. Some people are just strange period.


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## mjatte (Feb 10, 2007)

wow, I've known some people like this guy; he may not be dangerous, but I think the best thing to do would be to not talk to him again alone, maybe if you want to see him again, bring some friends with to talk to him too, and see what happens then...


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## laura024 (Aug 11, 2006)

If something feels off, it probably is. This guy seems creepy and I'd suggest you steer clear.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

Sunshine009 said:


> Learn to know the difference between the good eccentric and the harmful eccentric. Good eccentric don't talk sexual period or dominate the conversation. They are polite and make you feel comfortable despite their eccentric manner and interests.


That hasn't been true in my experiences. I've known "eccentrics" who talked sexually and dominated conversation, but were still completely harmless.


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## CarlitoBrigante (Oct 29, 2006)

That's definitely odd. Not knowing him, I can't judge him, but at the very least he's got poor judgement. I'd say to stay away from him.


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## pook (Feb 8, 2009)

Be wary! Sounds like a creeper. Any guy who makes reference to sex like that within moments of meeting you is just strange.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Veggie1,

You officially know him more than any one of us. If SA was a factor, you would have been creeped out. I think this might be just a caution thing - if he tries to talk to you again, just say that you have a lot to do (or ahave a phone call to make).

Just keep the foundation garments in your basket - don't leave anything in the laundry room.


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## mjatte (Feb 10, 2007)

not going to lie, I'd love to meet this guy.....he sounds really funny...i don't think you should talk to him anymore, but I"d like to ask him about what he's found dumpster diving lol....


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## Bredwh (Jan 24, 2009)

Possibly he is just not good at making conversation or was nervous and these random things just popped out in an effort to say something.

I don't know he doesn't sound creepy to me, maybe a little weird.

As for the bra thing, you were talking about buying close at Goodwill, which of course are used clothes, so he was probably curious (as I would be) whether you bought underwear there, including bras, because, well, that always seems very weird and gross to me, and probably to most people. I'm nit sure if I would actually ask it out loud though I might.

He might of started talking about hearing his neighbors having sex because it was probably on his mind as he said they do it every night and perhaps this annoys him or causes him to lose sleep, so when you started talking about neighbors the thought of them popped into his head.

The dumpster diving thing is a bit weird though. Dumpster diving seems like a lifestyle to me, not just something you try once and never do again. And he does it with his dumpster diving buddies, it seems all a bit strange but I've never done it myself so don't know what it would be like or what treasures could be found. If I lived near rich people who had dumpsters I might consider doing it.

If he has friends who are just as weird as him then at least he's not some lone creepoid, just an eccentric guy with eccentric friends, who probably talk about stuff like this all the time.

To be honest I've probably talked about things a lot dirtier and weirder than this before with people I haven't known long and I'm pretty sure I'm not a creepy pervert so maybe, as others have suggested meet him with some friends so your not along, possibly with some of his friends to get a better read on him.


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## aviator99 (Nov 23, 2006)

What the freak kind of conversation topics are those? What a nutjob. Seriously, these are just basic common ethics and logical reasoning. Anyone whom discusses topics as you described above has some serious issues. One could claim the eccentric argument, *however*, eccentric aside, no guy (and I guarantee you even a transvestite - only after they disclosed themselves as such) would ask where you buy your bra's from, unless they were a weirdo. Thats the red flag, for me. That, and while the discussion about 'annoying sex sounds from the neighbors' is fine, acting/sounding out the sounds is very weird. To me, all of these sound like gimmicks to try to see how you react on a sexual basis. The guy is interested in you (sexually), and was putting out 'bait', per say, to see how you react, or if you'd reciprocate any of it.

The "bras" comment is a serious creep alert, though - sounds like one of those nutjobs that likes to smell womens clothes/panties/bras (****** sick weirdos) and get off on that, or one of those guys that is checking out the womens isle at the local goodwill (ROFL - of all places) to get turned on or whatever. Or one of those guys with a blowup doll on his bed petting her all night or something.

Nonetheless, total nutjob. Seriously. While i've had limited experience with girls, i've NEVER discussed anything as discussed that you mentioned, nor have I ever heard any such stories or 'conversation starters' from any of my fellow guy friends. Any guy with any sense of logic/normalcy would never discuss such topics/bizarre conversations/weird interactions. Only time i've heard those kind of conversation pieces was on "The FBI Files", "The New Detectives", "Forensic Files"...you get the point.

Not trying to scare you or anything, but - if someone rubs you the wrong way, its OK to not have to justify it. Dont justify it as 'eccentric', or 'maybe he just needs a friend'. This is about you - nobody else. Protect yourself, and care only about yourself in a time like this.

Nonetheless, i'm sure you'll be fine - there are a lot of weirdos out there, but most are, indeed, harmless, and are just that - weirdos.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

You guys are so judgmental and scared, this dude sounds like a hoot. Carry mace just in case.


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## Lateralus (Oct 28, 2007)

Odd behavior + possiblilty of being a perv + lives in same complex = avoid (IMO)


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

bezoomny said:


> That hasn't been true in my experiences. I've known "eccentrics" who talked sexually and dominated conversation, but were still completely harmless.


There are degrees of not good eccentric behavior and he is not the worst type but still he is in that category of a type of bad & scummy eccentric type to me. "Scummy" doesn't refer to poor dressing or unhygenic but attitude and its something that anyone can control and its common decency. Your response is indicative of our personality and generational differences which is valid. I give younger men some slack for sexual talk but when you are 40ish like me it is disgusting to hear that from other men who are peer strangers and indicates trouble. Most women at my age would steer clear and tell off those who talk from subject to subject, a man you don't even know, who dominates the conversation, including about your underwear and sex noises to mimic. Try picturing this at my age. Do you think I'd be laughing and giggling or tell him to Get LOST or even F OFF. I don't use that term in everyday life but there is a time and a place for it and my self-defense teacher told us to use it because it makes them back off. They look for the weak, giggly and lonely types to harrass. I have had a lot of experience with guys like that clearly enjoying embarrassing me and then thinking that means that I want to date them. I've heard the underwear questions before more than a few times and my underwear wasn't showing in anyway. They try to bring out that you really feel weak inside, they try to see if you are latently weak or weak inside and then if you are they conclude you are lonely and would probably date them. They try to have you think that they are strong and protective then by bragging or seeming confident. The truth is I have met evil people like that. On the sites that teach men how to do this it is bordering on evil to teach how to exploit women who are stressed and alone in society trying to be goodhearted people. When you get to be my age you know its trouble.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

Prodigal Son said:


> You guys are so judgmental and scared, this dude sounds like a hoot. Carry mace just in case.


That shows your personality type is different than mine. Also you are a man, so you don't know what it is like to be a woman and hear that, nor at my age, fortyish. The way men talk to each other is different than how they should talk to women. Same gender talk can be intimate without any motivation to make others uncomfortable. In this case, I say he is testing her and wants to date her. It doesn't matter that he is the dangerous type physically even, the fact is when I encounter that type he has already intruded on my personal space of time and doesn't deserve my conservation.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

aviator99 said:


> What the freak kind of conversation topics are those? What a nutjob. Seriously, these are just basic common ethics and logical reasoning. Anyone whom discusses topics as you described above has some serious issues. One could claim the eccentric argument, *however*, eccentric aside, no guy (and I guarantee you even a transvestite - only after they disclosed themselves as such) would ask where you buy your bra's from, unless they were a weirdo. Thats the red flag, for me. That, and while the discussion about 'annoying sex sounds from the neighbors' is fine, acting/sounding out the sounds is very weird. To me, all of these sound like gimmicks to try to see how you react on a sexual basis. The guy is interested in you (sexually), and was putting out 'bait', per say, to see how you react, or if you'd reciprocate any of it.
> 
> The "bras" comment is a serious creep alert, though - sounds like one of those nutjobs that likes to smell womens clothes/panties/bras (****** sick weirdos) and get off on that, or one of those guys that is checking out the womens isle at the local goodwill (ROFL - of all places) to get turned on or whatever. Or one of those guys with a blowup doll on his bed petting her all night or something.
> 
> ...


I agree completely.

Some women think oh he's just eccentric and that's okay but its a bad type of it and they quit judging him because they don't want to think oh I'm judging him when they should!


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## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

Wow, thanks for all the input! I couldn't get connected to the internet last night and had to work overtime today. 

I do feel that he may be kind of sleazy. I could be wrong but that's how I feel. When he asked about dropping by the first time we met, I definitely felt creeped out by that. And the bra thing-there's just no normal explanation for that discussion. When I run into him (I do not seek him out!) and the conversation areas other than the absurd/inappropriate are quite normal I did't mind talking to him. He asks a lot of normal questions, usually. When talking about neighbors in general, I told him I had an old guy across from me that had been chewing out a worker here the day he moved in but my only encounter with him was on my birthday last summer and he was fairly nice. So the odd guy interjects and says, "When's your birthday?" I looked at him wondering why and just said, "It was last July" and didn't give him the date. He didn't say his birthday was in July so I doubt that's why. It bothered me because we hardly know each other and it was the way he asked. 

I think I'll try to avoid any more long conversations with him when I do run into him in the future. I do feel this guy has been extremely inappropriate in some of the things he's said, especially given being virtually a stranger and that he is interested in me, one way or another, and I am NOT interested in him in any way. 

When you've been on the receiving end of sexually inappropriate behavior and sexual assault several times in your lifetime, like I have, starting when I was 11 and the last time being about 10 years ago, it can be difficult to judge a man's meaning when he brings up personal/sexual topics and if he is harmless or not. At least it is for me sometimes. Some of the worst ones never said anything inappropriate first. Also, I practically have to be hit over the head to tell if a man actually likes me, other than just for sex, again because of past events. Usually somebody else who has seen the guy's behavior or talked with him or something has told me when a guy likes me. :|

This guy's approach and my (admittedly sometimes faulty) intuition about him are the opposite of the guy I really like that I also met by the lake but I think I screwed that up. I truly feel I could trust that guy. Not so, with this odd guy. 

I refuse to let the feeling I get from him ruin my enjoyment of being at the lake or anything else I do but I'll be more wary of him, for sure.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

I'm sorry about the abuse you have had. I have had it too. I'm sure you just want to be a nice good person and neighbor. I used to tell myself that "well his personality is just different" and I wasn't judgmental enough in a right way. Yeah, some of the worst ones don't seem it at first. Any kind of weirdness I've let go by, got worse later.


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## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

Thank you, Sunshine. I'm sorry you had to go through abuse, too. You seem to be very strong now. I'm strong in many ways but not in reading people and how to react to them, especially men. I think of things I should've said or done later, of course. About 10 years ago, I was raped by a guy who seemed really nice and never said anything inappropriate or sexual after talking to him for a long time at a party through a mutual female acquaintenance (everyone seemed to like him) and when I was leaving he asked for a ride which I gave him and, yes, I went inside with him to talk some more, including about my boyfriend at the time (who was off somewhere doing his own thing). He listened attentively to the problems with my boyfriend and was a gentleman right up until I tried to leave. It may have been poor judgment to go inside with him but I do not blame myself for what happened. When I told my brother, my brother said he knew him and, in fact, he was at a party another time and my brother said this guy was nuts and tried to throw someone out the window. He was not like that at all when I talked to him. Of course, days later, some gals I ran into that knew him angrily defended him and said he did not rape me, as soon as I said hi to them. Yes, he did. It all just messes with my mind in so many ways, as I'm sure it does a lot of women. 

It's taken me a long time to even realize that the sexual abuse and frequent inappropriate behavior from the past has affected my interactions with men to this day. I don't flirt with men and I really don't like sexual talk or innuendo from a man, unless he's already my boyfriend and even that might depend on the context.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

Veggie1 said:


> Thank you, Sunshine. I'm sorry you had to go through abuse, too. You seem to be very strong now. I'm strong in many ways but not in reading people and how to react to them, especially men. I think of things I should've said or done later, of course. About 10 years ago, I was raped by a guy who seemed really nice and never said anything inappropriate or sexual after talking to him for a long time at a party through a mutual female acquaintenance (everyone seemed to like him) and when I was leaving he asked for a ride which I gave him and, yes, I went inside with him to talk some more, including about my boyfriend at the time (who was off somewhere doing his own thing). He listened attentively to the problems with my boyfriend and was a gentleman right up until I tried to leave. It may have been poor judgment to go inside with him but I do not blame myself for what happened. When I told my brother, my brother said he knew him and, in fact, he was at a party another time and my brother said this guy was nuts and tried to throw someone out the window. He was not like that at all when I talked to him. Of course, days later, some gals I ran into that knew him angrily defended him and said he did not rape me, as soon as I said hi to them. Yes, he did. It all just messes with my mind in so many ways, as I'm sure it does a lot of women.
> 
> It's taken me a long time to even realize that the sexual abuse and frequent inappropriate behavior from the past has affected my interactions with men to this day. I don't flirt with men and I really don't like sexual talk or innuendo from a man, unless he's already my boyfriend and even that might depend on the context.


That's terrible about that guy. What a shame you had to go through that when you were hurting already. They belong in jail. Its amazing how many rapes go unreported each year because of fear but also a number of men are prosecuted too. I learned some men if they think you don't have a strong social structure will take advantage of you because they think they can get away with it and no one will care or blame you. My cousin told me that I should not talk to men about personal issues unless they are my boyfriend, and dating them is not enough becuase nothing is established. She told me after the fact of my own trouble though but she is right. Always talk to other women you trust or a therapist. It's sad that some men seek to harm those that say they are vulnerable. I have to think some kind of bad karma is waiting them if the person does not take it to the police. I surely don't think that with all the pain they have caused that their is no kind of retribution of any kind with the spiritual world.

It sounds like you have to tell this guy now that you don't have time to talk like what others said and do it a lot and if he says something like that well aren't we friends you can say you don't have much in common to talk about. and if he asks for a date you can say he is not your type. If it was someone that just started to hit on you you could say to GET LOST to them but since you have some talk that happened I would just be friendly but very very short and do not build on any relationship. I would go toward making an effort to say hello to the women and be friendly to them like I said and have quick surface conservations with light humor in them and excuse yourself nicely and with some who seem friendly back in a normal nonintrusive way to give your phone number but you can continue to keep a good distance with them on the phone until and IF you feel comfortable enough to talk more. You don't have to be close with them and a lot of neighbors don't want that anyway either but they like to take things slow unless they are extroverted or have good people skills. I find that people like that who are too friendly to put me off and I like people who are lower key. I think too friendly = gossips perhaps.

I am so sorry that happened to you. I don't like to talk about things that happened to me but I know exactly what you mean.


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## leomouse (Dec 1, 2008)

*eeek*

the guy is definitely a perv, usually our intuition is right... he gave you way too many clues that there's something off with him and it seems like he is interested in you. yikes!
i have the same problems sometimes when i question myself when a man makes me feel uncomfortable and i don't want to hurt his feeling or anything, but I talked to other people and they said sometimes you just have to be more b*tchy if someone is like this. if you continue to be nice to him you will just feel miserable inside and he will eventually push his boundaries and don't be surprised when he starts following you. maybe next time you see him do not talk or make eye contact. if he talks to you say hi but no smile be cold and keep walking. you have every right to feel comfortable and you do not have to be nice to this man. there's evil people out there and we have a right to protect ourselves so do not feel guilty.
i'm sorry to hear about your rape but it shows you're strong enough not to blame yourself for what happened because many women do


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

I have a hard time being real b*tchy. I would like to think I could say F OFF, but it doesn't flow out of me right. I can say GET LOST and it feels right and makes sense if I want them to get lost.

Saying F YOU always strikes me as somewhat humorous although its crude. When I hear someone say that to someone else espeically if its to a guy, I think "that's not a punishment to him/her, that's pleasure, that's like telling them to 'get some rest, have some fun, and take care of yourself' and you don't have to command him/her to do it, s/he will do it within 3 days most likely, and perhaps tonight". Also, I always wonder if they might actually do it in front of me and then well I didn't actually want that either. I'm disappointed in the curse words as they are kind of weird, you know.

It's like telling someone to go jump in a lake. I think of swimming  without sharks!  and a pretty dock to lay on in the lake and look at the pretty sky!  And it reminds me of how great life can be and when I will actually get to go swimming next as I do live by lakes that are cleaned out yearly and pay a hefty fee for that. The command should be more specific like go jump in a toxic lake and get drunk on the water. I don't think most telling off makes much sense.

"you are full of sh*t" does though because constipation does happen and it does alter your mood and such but I don't like that phrase, it doesn't sound like me. I hate the s word. I use the word trash or garbage but I don't tell people they are full of sh*t but I might tell them about colon cleansers and imply something but not to be mean as I take them myself. 

I could go on but I have work to do here.


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## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

Sunshine - Thanks again for your support. I do appreciate it. I understand completely about not wanting to talk about it. I hope you have a good support system. It sounds like perhaps you do in your sister. This is the first time I've mentioned anything about this on SAS. I've been thinking in recent months of the connection between sexual abuse and SAS to some degree, although I don't believe that is the root of my SAS. 

That's just it. How much does one open up to a guy? I know some of us with SA tend to overanalyze conversations we've had but I wish I had looked more closely at mine right after I met the nice guy that I like in December. I look back on my behavior now and there was NOTHING I said or did to indicate any interest in him despite his opening up to tell me he was always alone (not in a creepy way, kind of like I am). I assumed that my being there showed interest despite my wondering if he liked me even though he was there. I absolutely trust him, too, for the first time ever despite not knowing him well. 

My boyfriend at the time made me report the rape to the police to "prove" it and I got two young male officers at the ER who had heard of the guy via some kind of prior drug situation. They sort of did a good cop/bad cop thing, which I didn't even think about until four years later that I was the victim and neither one of them should've been the bad cop to me. My boyfriend at the time actually believed me but was a complete a-hole several times, using it against me. My boyfriend pretty much fits the description of the types of guys you're referring to that take advantage if you don't have a supportive social structure. Anyway, nothing became of it. I don't know why. I wasn't a hysterical TV/movie victim, I guess. I didn't report being raped before when I was in my 20s but I don't think I told them about that. I really couldn't go to court and tell every detail anyway, especially with SA. I was a witness (who didn't see anything) in a rape trial once and the defense lawyer was really slimey and would do/say anything to help his client. If there's a next time, I'm thinking of doing a Bobbit. 

I'll just have to be short with this guy. I figured, too, that if he comes on stronger or something I would tell him that I'm interested in somebody else (which is very true). The only time I run into women is by the lake and we usually say hi and sometimes chat. They're usually half of a couple. I haven't met a women so far that I'm really interested in giving my phone number to or befriending. 

Haha, I have to laugh at the F YOU reference. I don't have the nerve to tell anybody off these days but once I was in my late teens/early 20s walking downtown back home, a small town, with my then 5- or 6-year old nephew. a guy drove to a stop at the end of a business driveway in front of us and said something to me, not something dirty either, but I blurted out, "F*** You" to him in response. Probably harsher than he deserved. 

leomouse - Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I'm sure you're right that if I continue being nice to him, I may end up miserable and he'll overstep his boundaries, more than already. I plan to keep any future conversations I have with him very short and am trying to get up the nerve to tell him I was uncomfortable with some of the topics he brought up, although that could make him leave out those topics but I still wouldn't trust him. I may skip saying that. Maybe I can wean our conversations off entirely, if I keep running into him, and just keep it on a "Hi" passing by basis. 

Yes, a lot of women do blame themselves, unfortunately. So do a lot of other people (blame the victims). It's a sad statement on our supposedly civilized society. We should be more evolved by now.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

Veggie1 said:


> Sunshine - Thanks again for your support. I do appreciate it. I understand completely about not wanting to talk about it. I hope you have a good support system. It sounds like perhaps you do in your sister. This is the first time I've mentioned anything about this on SAS. I've been thinking in recent months of the connection between sexual abuse and SAS to some degree, although I don't believe that is the root of my SAS.
> 
> That's just it. How much does one open up to a guy? I know some of us with SA tend to overanalyze conversations we've had but I wish I had looked more closely at mine right after I met the nice guy that I like in December. I look back on my behavior now and there was NOTHING I said or did to indicate any interest in him despite his opening up to tell me he was always alone (not in a creepy way, kind of like I am). I assumed that my being there showed interest despite my wondering if he liked me even though he was there. I absolutely trust him, too, for the first time ever despite not knowing him well.
> 
> ...


Sorry I went off topic like that.  How much to open up to talk to a guy?

-I would talk about your life without any saying any real wounds, just minor but real problems to test him on a variety of levels with that.

-You need an atmosphere where you can talk which is not in the movies or at some loud bar or sport game unless you are talking after or before. Eating out and a walk is nice outside or in a mall. Mall walking is a good alternative to walking outside sometimes if it is cold.

-There should be a time limit on meetings so you will remember what happened and how he reacted such as 1 to 3 hours. And so you do not start talking too much.

-There should be time between meetings sufficient enough for you to process what happened objectively, such as every other week and sometimes every week. Also you do not want to give a signal that you are dating consistently if you don't know if you want to yet.

Talk about your general life, the joys and the stresses without the deep wounds.

-See how he reacts to the good: is he jealous or happy for you? is he interested in what you like because you like it?

-How does he handle minor problems you talk about? (these aren't ones that show you are lonely or lack social support) Does he show any interest at all? is it real interest or just questions that seem like obligatory questions? Does he suggest and try to help and gently persuade in a respectful normal way or does he boss around?

-Does he think that you now should have sex with him or put the moves on you? Many men follow the rule to get a woman to open up about some thing that hurts to show compassion and then try to seduce her. They put their arm around you and say aw give me a hug and then they try to kiss you when its not the right time. You were just upset, this isn't actual mutual love. You might want to test him on this by letting yourself get upset a little about something. This is when they do the sex moves and its inappropiate timing and manipulative. I'm sure you know about this one but it doesn't hurt to remind

-How does he show that he handles anger? does he use heavy curse words and scare you? see if you can bring out a situation that made him angry lately to see how he handles anger to others. You don't want someone who gets mad easily or has a heavy temper. Or someone who doesn't get angry at all either.

-what is his daily life like and his values in life? can he discuss values on various things such as spiritual views? someone who believes in God too like you maybe? maybe you both are liberal? what are his health habits-is he a vegetarian or vegan too or would want to eat some of your food if not become one? does he like yoga if you do or willing to learn some basics and teach you some things? is he a saver or a spender and is that like you? does he like his job or find a way to like it? does he have alternative income or a degree to fall back on? does he spend time learning about the world, news? what does he do for fun? is it expensive? is he thankful, glad of thngs and has a sense of humor that comes from that? does he laugh some? do you like him? respect him? does he overtalk? undertalk?

-do you feel comfortable with him? like you trust him because he is aware of his thoughts, emotions and words and has self-control? do you feel safe?

Make everything minor and test the man's response on many levels. Even if you show you are upset at something to test to see if he will try to manipulate you sexually, keep that minor too.

If he passes these tests over a couple months time as a friend, then I would date him which means kissing and protected sex and a deeper sharing of wounds. I would start out as friends first. I haven't dated much but I do have a boyfriend now who I trust and has similar values. I am pretty conservative but not as much as I was where I used to be believe sex was for marriage only.

You could try to go to a rape support group or I think its called Sexual abuse anonymous or incest anonymous (although open to all sexual abuse from anyone) and talk to other women about what they consider safe dating as people have different ideas how it goes.

That's good you went to the police and I'm sorry that they treated you that way. Sometimes women lie and they are trying to be fair but it is horrible that women have to go through that. It adds to the pain and stops women from even wanting to report who were raped.

It sounds like a good plan to tell that guy you are interested in someone else. I used to be a vegetarian and it made my body very akaline or peaceful feeling just through the veggie food. And the natural inclination is to be kind to people even when they are mean, it isn't in your nature easily to get mean for some poeple when they eat vegetarian. I had trouble with men too at that time. Now I eat chicken and fish but with some guilt I admit still.

At least you are talking to other women near you. If you don't feel comfortable giving them your number than that's just the way it is. You wouldn't want to talk to them on the phone anyhow. It is not a bad idea to consider trying to find some reason to talk to them though to get their number in case you need a neighbor to call. It is hard I realize though.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

I think men have to be tested and if they don't pass the tests then don't proceed because they will only use you if you are looking for a long term or relationship to marriage. It's worth it to find someone safe, with good values, who you can talk to, who loves you. Keep looking but with a good plan.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

Don't some of these tests seem manipulative though? I guess you have to protect yourself, especially if you have had an abusive past. 

Veggie, do you think any of your SA is linked to an abusive past? Also, yeah I definitely don't think this guy is for you now. #1 even if he isn't a perv and just eccentric or his way of flirting, I don't think he is really a guy you're going to be comfortable with or be able to handle some of your wounds. Good luck.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

Prodigal Son said:


> Don't some of these tests seem manipulative though? I guess you have to protect yourself, especially if you have had an abusive past.
> .


It's part of people having to earn your trust. Which, is all about testing with smaller things. If you tell them small problems you have and they react normal and with compassion, and do this time and time again, then you can assume they will not hurt you further if you tell them your bigger wounds from the past or anything personal. Good men don't boss you around, or get grabby sexually and push you to have sex when you have a problem.

What is manipulative about seeing how someone responds?

This is about earning trust, and keeping good boundaries til then.

It is the same thing that people do to find friends too. Friends should be supportive and if they don't show support for smaller things when you meet them or they boss you around then you know they do not want to be a friend or wouldn't be a good friend. It is the same with women meeting men its best to start slow. People date all kinds of different ways and I respect that. I'm just saying one point of view, but its best to get many points of view and pick what makes the most sense, or pick a mix of advice.


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

*Hi Veggie,*
*I only read up to the point when he asked about neighbors having sex. I would be cautious around him. Unless he's drop dead hot, then of course go for it. :lol*


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

Sunshine009 said:


> What is manipulative about seeing how someone responds?


Some of the tests seem like a play on emotions. Even talk about getting him angry a little and creating minor but real problems to test him on a variety of levels. Do I have it wrong?


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

Prodigal Son said:


> Some of the tests seem like a play on emotions. Even talk about getting him angry a little and creating minor but real problems to test him on a variety of levels. Do I have it wrong?


If you spend time around someone, you can observe how he gets angry from what he says about things that have happened. And if you ask outright how he gets angry, you can get an honest response too a lot of the times. People who lose thier tempers often like to brag about it. It's not natural to lose your temper but it is natural to feel anger and assert yourself calmly and persuasively. You can always ask also what he would do in such and such instance that would make him angry obviously and ask how he would handle it. You can also disagree freely and normally and see how he responds. You don't want to always be agreeing on everything when it isn't true. Most of the time people stay quiet when they don't want conflict and that is wise in many situations that don't have to do with you much. I don't like heavy conflict so I try to minimize that with all people because it is wise yet in a serious relationship is it important not to deny conflict too. A lot of women don't like conflict and so in a relationship in the beginning they may not say what they feel if they disagree. So its important to see how people handle conflict before you get in a serious relationship, is it as a means to learn and to think together? If you both have the same values then it should be the values that guides your group thinking. You don't want to not know how anger and conflict is handled and ..Then down the line you find out he has a temper and you've been afraid of how he was going to react from the beginning if you disagreed and couldn't admit it to yourself. Some men really believe that they are the superior sex, and not just the stronger sex. Women are sensitive and that is also a virtue as well. Each has also a different perspective on life or affects how you see life. No one should be dominating another. Some men don't believe in a partnership but a dictatorship, and the woman is clueless about this if she has never observed how he handles anger or disagreed with him. Talking about what a man thinks of feminism or equality down the line after you have been dating a few dates will bring out a lot. Also asking about how their parents handled roles, conflict and anger and what they thought of it. And what happened in your family too and what you thought of it and what he thought of it. You should be free to say what you want to and disagree on that. Perhaps you will both or one of you will learn something if you hadn't thought about the different issues of equality in various situations. You want someone who can handle a disagreement without bossing you around or blowing up at you or telling you to shut up or being subtly sarcastic. All that is disrespectful.
There are many ways to see about a person's handling of anger and they are all natural.


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## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

Sunshine - That's a lot of very good advice! Thank you. All of the really bad things happened to me before I became vegetarian (and now vegan). This has probably given me more confidence than anything else I've done. Not that I am confident with people but at least it's one area I have complete confidence within myself, whereas I had none before. 

I've been through so much of what you wrote about that I am indeed watchful for many of those things. The guy I met in December that I really like already passed some of those tests. I watched how he interacted with other people, besides myself, and his dog (which his neighbor abandoned with him) and he is just such a kind and gentle person. His brother-in-law's 93-year-old was having surgery and he was very concerned about her, too! I've met nice guys before but I never felt this way about any of them nor as "safe" with a guy. My problem with him is I did not show interest, like I thought I was doing just by being there, and when he mentioned being alone more than once I didn't offer any words at all because I didn't know what to say and was afraid to open myself up. Ultimately, he most likely got the impression I was not interested in him. That's how I came across. We have not run into each other and I don't know if he stopped walking by the lake or just that our timing is off. I want the chance to find out more about him. It breaks my heart.:rain I don't think therapy will make much difference for me, especially since I could probably only go once in a while. I don't have the great expectations of a social life that I used to have. Just a 'soul mate' and maybe a gal pal is all I need.  If things don't pan out with the guy I like for whatever reason, I don't plan to look for another guy. I wasn't looking for one when we met. I hate dating. It's too nerve-wracking. With this guy, I felt like we could do things together as friends and I wouldn't be that nervous, and things could progress from there. 

I'm really glad for you that you have someone good that you can trust.  


Prodigal Son - Thank you. I really do think it plays a bigger role than I thought. It's not the root cause but I've been extremely 'shy' especially around males and there's no doubt in my mind because of numerous unpleasant interactions over my lifetime. I've been thinking about this in recent months and, oddly enough, don't think I gave the abuse as much 'credit' for my SA around men as it probably should get.


Hi FC - I'm not looking to "go for it" with this guy. You missed some major points.  I forgot to add EWWW at that!


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## Bredwh (Jan 24, 2009)

Sunshine009 said:


> You don't want someone who gets mad easily or has a heavy temper. Or someone who doesn't get angry at all either.


What's wrong with someone who never gets angry?


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bredwh said:


> What's wrong with someone who never gets angry?


Someone who never gets angry could mean two things. The person has controlled and asserted themselves and I would agree with you on that being good. Or the person has not tried to do anything within reason and is too passive.

Someone who is too passive... If his mom were to continually give his kids lots of candy and harm their attitude or let them watch tv without supervision of all kinds of cable channels, and he continues not to confront her nor nor allow her to babysit the kids anymore then that is too passive. If a guy were to say horrible things about his wife, he would not tell him off, but laugh. If a man were to start a rumor about him going to stripper bars and cheating on his gf, he would not say it was untrue because he is afraid of the person and what he thinks

Good assertion sticks up for themselves, although it starts off as anger. It may not change the other person(s), but the point is to do what is right and that is perfect enough, and then evaluate the results and learn and try again if you need to or can. Aggression forces a change, but passivity does not even try and both are not helpful with angry feelings. A strong person has anger but calmness and asserts themselves.


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## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

Sunshine - I just wanted to mention that I moved a few years ago almost 2000 miles away from where all that stuff happened, driving with just my cat, which definitely made me feel stronger because I was afraid to do that my entire life and never thought I would. I know there are lots of people without SA who would never drive and move across the country to a huge new city where they didn't know anybody. 

I'd posted on here about it at the time and I forget that people wouldn't know that.


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## Sunshine009 (Sep 21, 2008)

Veggie1 said:


> Sunshine - I just wanted to mention that I moved a few years ago almost 2000 miles away from where all that stuff happened, driving with just my cat, which definitely made me feel stronger because I was afraid to do that my entire life and never thought I would. I know there are lots of people without SA who would never drive and move across the country to a huge new city where they didn't know anybody.
> 
> I'd posted on here about it at the time and I forget that people wouldn't know that.


WOW that is really great. I know that it is hard moving to a new city. It takes a lot of planning and self-talk and pushing yourself. It sounds like the rewards were worth it to you. Sometimes breaking old ties is what we need.


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## new shoes (Oct 25, 2008)

i've been following this story about the whole weird-neighbor thing...at first, when i read how he blew off the other woman to come talk to u, i was like 'awww', but then once he started getting into those topics, i was like "whooaaa". whether or not he's harmless or kidding, that's just creepy. normal people would know not to say those things to people they just met. like someone else said, those are things u basically joke about with friends. sooo like others have suggested, i would just keep away because i watch too many horror movies, and he could turn out to be a stalker. GOD FORBID! but just be careful.


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## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

Sunshine009 said:


> WOW that is really great. I know that it is hard moving to a new city. It takes a lot of planning and self-talk and pushing yourself. It sounds like the rewards were worth it to you. Sometimes breaking old ties is what we need.


It was VERY difficult to actually go but once on the road it felt great! If only I could've left the SA behind, as well. It felt like that was gone for a while, too, but it came back, of course. Still, glad I did it though!

newshoes - Thank you. Yes, I think the inappropriate topics and asking to drop by were creepy. I'm glad I posted about him on here because I wasn't sure if I was overreacting about the vibe I got from him or it was SA or what. I plan to not let him get any closer than he's already gotten to me and to keep it short when/if we do talk again. I love horror movies, too, and had a few scenarios going through my head. I always worry about someone wanting revenge.:afr


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## forever_dreamer (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't know about you but this guy's really creeped me out lol I think he may have gotten the message that you weren't interested but yeah I agree that you should try to keep the conversation as short as possible if you ever see him again.


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## zaph (Aug 4, 2004)

I don't know, the trouble with what you described in your original message; is without context it very difficult to what the guy is like. Alot of communication is non verbal, body language. From a guys prepective, it very difficult to judge how risque to be in a conversation, especially if you have poor social skills (and I do, for a start I use words like risque). One of my flatmates was very popular with the girls, and his conversation was filthy. The fact is a combination of charm and good looks let him get away with. Cross the line that other guys couldn't. Take him telling you about him over hearing the neighbours having sex. That could be pervy or it could just be a funny story about living in a crummy building. The bra thing is bit strange, even I would know to stay away form that topic. I suppose I naturally empathisize with this guy, I know how difficult it is to gage a conversation with a girl, especially if you are interested in her. I tend to play it safe, which is frankly dull. He could be a perv or he could just be a guy who is trying to act confident, be a little be out there; without the social skills to pull it off. Maybe being blunt with him would be best. If you are not interested in him, just tell him.


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## Veggie1 (Jan 12, 2006)

forever_dreamer - I've only been over to the lake once in the last two weeks so I haven't run into him again yet, but I'm bound to. I'll be cordial but not engage in conversation like before. 


zaph - It's a whole different perspective from a female point of view with a male she hardly knows than from a male's POV. He's middle-aged and should know better. My social skills aren't the best, due to SA, but I do have some common sense. So should he. When I picture him pumping his hips as a visual aid to his story of the neighbors having sex, I cringe. I looked away as soon as possible but not in time. It haunts me. I really don't think he's shy or anything like that. He would never have asked to "drop by" the very first time we spoke. He seems like the type of man who thinks he's a ladies man. I can't stand that type. Ugh.


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