# Shame attacking and beyond...



## Diogenes1982

Hi all, 

First post here on this forum, although I've visited a few times before. I thought I'd share what I'm doing and planning to do, in order to try to alleviate or lessen some of my social anxiety. 

About a year ago I got into ancient Greek philosophy, and it's reassuring to read that people 2000 years ago had the same hang-ups as they do now. It's pretty obvious that CBT's shame attacking was based on some of the techniques these philosophers used themselves, and on their pupils to overcome the fear of being disapproved upon. So with their cue, I've just started doing it myself. It's worth noting though, that I'd first intended to do this 10 months ago, but I found many reasons not to! First step is the hardest in anything like this I think.

I've done it for 2 days, but I plan to do it for 7, then see if I feel any different; although I can already sense small changes now. My first day I wasn't sure what I was going to do, or where, however I knew I had to buy some milk for later. So, bought a litre of milk and got back in my car. I tried to get out of going through with it AGAIN, but this time said no to the little voice. Anyway, parked up in a sidestreet, and started walking up a busy local road pretending the milk was a dumbbell, doing bicep extensions - facial expressisons to match. This got some double takes from drivers. Did that for a while, then decided I needed to be more obvious, so I carried the milk on my head like those African women carry things! This got much more of a response, some laughed, others gave bemused looks, and others just stared. I also balanced it on my head with no hands while standing still waiting for cars to go by, it felt good!

On my second day I packed a few items and drove to a village near me. I parked up, took off my top and put on a dressing gown, shades, and a red bandanna. I then walked through the village saying morning to people (it was evening) while monitoring their reactions. This outfit got some very good reactions, laughter, bemusement and even a bit of sympathy i think! I decided to up the ante by doing some stretching and press-ups against the wall, randomly sprinting alongside some cars, and dancing on the pavement - good reactions from the public again, as in; they were laughing at a "fool".

Third day today, not sure what I'll do yet, but I'll give you an update how it goes and ends! I can't say if this is going to work or not, but I'm willing to try. That's all for now....


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## Woodoow

Wow, you're a total BEAST ! I wanted to try shame attacking last year but didn't have the balls to do so.
Do you think the effects still last after that ?

PS : Ah, and welcome by the way.


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## Diogenes1982

Woodoow said:


> Wow, you're a total BEAST ! I wanted to try shame attacking last year but didn't have the balls to do so.
> Do you think the effects still last after that ?
> 
> PS : Ah, and welcome by the way.


Thanks for the welcome. I think you find the sufficient motivation to try and tackle your anxiety issues when you get fed up of experiencing the same old destructive feelings over and over again. About 2 weeks ago I had a panic attack (hadn't had one of that severity for a long time) out of nowhere when in a group of friends and acquaintances - ok, I'd had a very unhealthy weekend of booze and hardly any sleep, so that didn't help, but no one else was in a state of mental flight other than me. The following week I could've propelled a rocket into space with my nervous energy, I was completely on edge and definitely felt like I was losing it. As a consequence, I've quit binge drinking forever - it's given me horrible anxiety hangovers for as long as I can remember, so no great loss. Anyway, once I felt relatively normal again, I thought it was time to actually do something rather than just read about ways to deal with SA. The ancient philosophers were always saying you need to put yourself through training in the real world, not just learn the theories, so, I decided to give shame attacking a go. If it's good enough for Zeno of Citium, it's good enough for me. Let's face it, it's easy to find enough people to act stupid in front of, so we've got this technique on tap for whenever we want!

But, very early days for me still, in fact I only did my 3rd exercise today. Basically I wore the same mental looking outfit as yesterday; dressing gown, red bandanna and shades. Parked up, and started strolling up and down a busy road with the usual stares and weird looks from passers by. What I chickened out of yesterday, was actually going into somewhere enclosed, like a shop, dressed like this - that was my main challenge today. So, I walked into a newsagents, put the shades on top of my head, went over to the ice cream freezer and picked myself out a white Magnum. Paid for it and the girl didn't even blink. I ate it outside infront of all the passing traffic, looking suitably crazy I think. Something interesting started to happen though; I was feeling that during the 2nd half of today's exercise like I was actually dressed relatively normally (obviously I wasn't), because I either wasn't noticing the reactions as much, or I just didn't care anymore. That could be an encouraging sign. Continuing with today's story, I initiated a few pleasantries about the weather, people answered back normally, although most avoided eye contact. I saw a guy on a bike riding towards me, so I challenged him to a race and ran alongside him for a bit - he was fine about it! Then I saw an old guy with a walking stick making very slow progress - I chatted to him, to be honest I don't even think he noticed what I was wearing. It turns out he'd fallen and damaged his spine a while ago, and he missed his bus. He was intending to walk a mile and a half but I insisted I gave him a lift in my car which was just parked up the road, so that's what I did! We must've loooked a good pair to oncoming drivers! Anyway, dropped him off and drove back towards home, needed to stop off and get some beers (responsible drinking of course) for later. I was planning to change before going into my most local Tesco, but I thought screw it, so kept on my dressing gown, bandanna and shades, and went in to buy my beers. Again, some double takes and long looks but no one cares. Exercise completed.

Will update tomorrow I expect. Peace.


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## Woodoow

That's kinda... drastic.
I didn't know people could respond that well. I wouldn't get in a car with someone dressed like that haha.
Just waiting for your next experiences (7 days in a row ?! That's intense).


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## AndreaXo

Dude, you have balls. I don't know if i'd able to do something like that though sometimes i think i should, as it would probably help a lot. Good job though. The best way to overcome your fears is to tackle them head on.


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## Diogenes1982

Woodoow said:


> That's kinda... drastic.
> I didn't know people could respond that well. I wouldn't get in a car with someone dressed like that haha.
> Just waiting for your next experiences (7 days in a row ?! That's intense).


Neither would I, but this guy was quite senior in years, so he wasn't really looking at what I was wearing. Anyway, I just gave him a lift because he needed one, not to "shame attack".

My fourth exercise has been the most extreme yet. One bit of advice for anyone who wants to try shame attacking; plan it all in advance so you know exactly where you're going and what you're going to do. This eliminates indecision leading up to it, giving you less chance to back out. So, it was a hot and sunny afternoon in England on Saturday. Parked up in a different small town, got out and put on a leather jacket, black leather gloves, bandanna, shades and took out my umbrella. Put the umbrella up and started walking around this town. More looks and stares as per normal. Having shades has made me feel more comfortable doing these exploits, so I decided it would be more beneficial to take off the shades, as I think I was hiding behind them. Heart rate went up once all could see my eyes, but gradually I got used to it. So much so, that I decided to use zebra crossings and walk backwards across them in front of waiting cars. I could see a bus driver was saying something at me, but I just didn't care - so that's a definite plus. I became more confident as the minutes went by, so started whistling (umbrella up all the time) and walking backwards in front of people, which I couldnt imagine myself doing at the start. Many strange looks, some laughs, some acknowledgements, 1 bit of non threatening abuse, but the main takeaway of this is that I didn't care about any of these reactions. All in all, very happy with how it went.

Today I had family visiting, so I couldn't really vanish off without informing them of what I was doing, and I haven't decided who I'm going to tell as of yet about this. So I've done 4 days in a row, day off today, resume tomorrow. I do think it's given me more confidence already, but I might have to do it for a month or more, to really destroy my SA. By the way, it's actually quite enjoyable once you get into playing the "fool"!

I'll let you know how tomorrow's exercise goes. Peace.


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## Diogenes1982

AndreaXo said:


> Dude, you have balls. I don't know if i'd able to do something like that though sometimes i think i should, as it would probably help a lot. Good job though. The best way to overcome your fears is to tackle them head on.


I wouldn't call it balls, just the required motivation. I could never have imagined myself a few weeks ago doing all this, but here I am. Start slow and small, and build up. You can do it, we all can. Thanks.


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## masterridley

Diogenes would be proud!

I like how you're constantly upping the ante eg taking off the shades. If you can do the same things at your hometown in the end, I think you'll be cured. It's not the things that affect us, it's our perception of them - Epicurus.


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## Diogenes1982

masterridley said:


> Diogenes would be proud!
> 
> I like how you're constantly upping the ante eg taking off the shades. If you can do the same things at your hometown in the end, I think you'll be cured. It's not the things that affect us, it's our perception of them - Epicurus.


Thanks for your post. Diogenes and co. have actually given me some of the confidence to go out and do it, maybe they're watching from above. You make a good observation - my home town centre is much bigger than the ones I've been too so far. That amount of people is a bit mentally overwhelming for me currently, so I need to build up to get to that stage. Ideally I'd like this training to culminate in me being able to stand in a busy part of my hometown and read out jokes from a jokebook, or tell a story, without any regard to the public's reaction.


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## Diogenes1982

I've been to*


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## Diogenes1982

There was one bit of Saturday's escapades that I forgot to mention; I saw the same bus driver, who mouthed something derogatory at me, a 2nd time in a different part of town. He kept true to form and was saying something at me as he approached in his bus, so I just kept watching him and staring at him (a bit crazily), and when he went past he pulled a hillbilly/"dumb and dumber" type face at me as if I was truly crazy. This has been making me laugh ever since it happened. If you think about it, his faulty judgments have caused him to regress to playground age where he's making faces at an adult like an 8 year old. What does this say about him? I hold no animosity against him though, I just find it very amusing. But on the flip side, some people have been sympathetic/caring by saying "hi" to me first. It's as if they want to treat me normally in order to help me. Of course, I could be imagining this, however I've said hi before to "crazy" looking people, for the very same reason I think people say hi to me first; a caring attitude towards others worse off than ourselves.


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## Diogenes1982

Today I left all the outfits at home, and decided to do more on interaction with the public. Went to my local Tesco Express, parked up and walked backwards across the car park, and backwards through the entrance. A couple of people saw I think, but had to watch where I was going! Bought a Pizza, did some more walking backwards in the aisles, not many people there but I was making it visible to see for anyone who looked up. Paid for the pizza, but thought I could spice it up by giving him the wrong change. Picked out £4 (£3.89 was the required amount) and gave it to him, then I kept putting coins in his hand way over the amount. I apologised saying I failed every maths test at school I took. He was very kind, I thanked him and walked away backwards for a few steps. 

Then I drove to a retail park, chatted to a guy in the car park saying I'd had a bad day and wanted to come to Halfords to cheer me up. Very decent bloke even though I was acting weird, I said bye to him and walked away backwards for a while. Entered Halfords normally, said "good morning" to two different workers there, then basically walked out. Saw the same bloke again, said "bye, have a good morning". 

Next I drove to a local newsagents; picked out some crisps and a chocolate bar, took them to the counter. Then I picked out a lottery scratchcard to buy, and asked what the total was, he said £2.40, I gave him £2.10. I told him I can't do maths, he was fine, just picked out the right money from my hand. Then I asked him to explain the scratchcard, which he did well; I played stupid and pretended not to understand, he was very patient. I said, "can I scratch it here at the counter?", he agreed. Scratched away at an area where I knew there wasn't any symbols underneath - I said "it's a con", amongst other things. Playing this lunatic type character was actually a lot of fun. Anyway, after taking painfully long to scratch away all the card, with random chat thrown in for good measure, it turns out I won £2! I put it in the charity tin on the counter and said my goodbyes. A very successful exercise and equally enjoyable.


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## Diogenes1982

With reference to all the "good mornings" I was saying, it was evening time.


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## Woodoow

That bus driver showed how people can be rotten...c'mon, a full grown bloke poking fun at a (false) lunatic :sigh.
Seems like most people are way cooler than they look like though.
You have a lot of courage. The exercices I planned weren't that stressful but I still can't manage to do them.
Good luck for your last 2 days.


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## Diogenes1982

Woodoow said:


> That bus driver showed how people can be rotten...c'mon, a full grown bloke poking fun at a (false) lunatic :sigh.
> Seems like most people are way cooler than they look like though.
> You have a lot of courage. The exercices I planned weren't that stressful but I still can't manage to do them.
> Good luck for your last 2 days.


There'll always be people like that bus driver, however from my experience so far that's about 0.5/1% of people - maybe even less! Don't let that put you off...most people just ignore you, smile or laugh. I'd encourage you to try shame attacking, but just start off very small and slowly build up. Why not just wear a hat you don't like, or a t-shirt you think is unfashionable, and just get used to walking about town in it. Then the next time, go a bit further, and so on. The first step is the hardest, it really is....

Thanks for your well wishes.


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## Diogenes1982

Actually when I really think about the number of people I've walked past or have seen me, the bus driver type Neanderthals are more like 0.05/0.1%, and it's probably still less!


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## Diogenes1982

The whole point of these exercises are to realise that it doesn't matter what other's opinions are of you. Yes they might think you're crazy, but so what!? You know different. But even if you are crazy and other people think it too, it still doesn't matter. Your opinion of yourself is all that's important.

Anyway, went to 2 supermarkets today; lots of walking backwards in front of people, some whistling and a tiny bit of Christmas song singing (not loud), some random chats and odd questions to people, and making a bit of a scene when paying by card for my items by pretending to forget my PIN number and generally taking ages. I'm becoming much more comfortable doing this stuff in busy places now - couldn't have done this at the start, no way. In my humble opinion it's about challenging yourself little by little each day. Peace.


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## Woodoow

Diogenes1982 said:


> There'll always be people like that bus driver, however from my experience so far that's about 0.5/1% of people - maybe even less! Don't let that put you off...most people just ignore you, smile or laugh. I'd encourage you to try shame attacking, but just start off very small and slowly build up. Why not just wear a hat you don't like, or a t-shirt you think is unfashionable, and just get used to walking about town in it. Then the next time, go a bit further, and so on. The first step is the hardest, it really is....
> 
> Thanks for your well wishes.


That isn't so reassuring. I'm sure some people were thinking what the bus driver did.
If I ever start shame attacking, I'll start with something like walking weirdly as I have this anxiety to be seen walking (weird I know). Or eating disgunstigly in public, but I'll never have the nerve to do something this intense. Plus I'm scared some people might recognize me later, or worse, upload it on Youtube haha.
The problem is with social anxiety we're so attuned to what people think of us (or just a few of us maybe ?), that we lose our personality, and can't define our boundaries. It's awesome if you can manage to get over that.


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## Diogenes1982

Woodoow said:


> That isn't so reassuring. I'm sure some people were thinking what the bus driver did.
> If I ever start shame attacking, I'll start with something like walking weirdly as I have this anxiety to be seen walking (weird I know). Or eating disgunstigly in public, but I'll never have the nerve to do something this intense. Plus I'm scared some people might recognize me later, or worse, upload it on Youtube haha.
> The problem is with social anxiety we're so attuned to what people think of us (or just a few of us maybe ?), that we lose our personality, and can't define our boundaries. It's awesome if you can manage to get over that.


Yes, I'm sure some were, but the aim of all this is to cause disparaging looks or similar, in order to stop being overly sensitive about what people think of you. Therefore getting disapproved of by the public is exactly what we want; therefore I can only quantify abuse, laughter at me, or complete ignorance, while personally not caring for these public reactions, as an unmitigated success!

We're all developing as people as we age, however at 18 you can't be too hard on yourself that you haven't got it all figured out yet, who has!? But I think this shame attacking thing could help younger people develop without being held back by social anxiety, like I was at your age. I certainly wish I'd given it a go 10 years ago, because even after 7 days (30-45 mins each day), I feel more comfortable in situations that caused me anxiety. It's not an overnight thing, but I reckon if I did another 3 weeks while upping the stakes a bit each time, I'd get quite close to where I want to be.

Thanks for your post.


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## Diogenes1982

Today's shame attacking was similar to yesterday, except that I went to the busiest supermarket in the centre of town. Some walking backwards, strange questions to the public, whistling and singing, and just general odd behaviour, was the order of the day. I felt a bit more self conscious today due to the number of people there, however it wore off as I went along mostly. I did get a bit flustered by the girl cashier when I was pretending not to know my PIN number and taking a long time to pay by card, however it was all in my mind, she was very patient. The likelihood is; because she was younger, attractive and nice, I was more conscious of my behaviour. But I'd still give myself a 6.5/7 out of 10 for that part, so that's fine. I think I need to come up with something to push the boundaries a little, to get out of my comfort zone again...


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## Woodoow

Diogenes1982 said:


> Today's shame attacking was similar to yesterday, except that I went to the busiest supermarket in the centre of town. Some walking backwards, strange questions to the public, whistling and singing, and just general odd behaviour, was the order of the day. I felt a bit more self conscious today due to the number of people there, however it wore off as I went along mostly. I did get a bit flustered by the girl cashier when I was pretending not to know my PIN number and taking a long time to pay by card, however it was all in my mind, she was very patient. The likelihood is; because she was younger, attractive and nice, I was more conscious of my behaviour. But I'd still give myself a 6.5/7 out of 10 for that part, so that's fine. I think I need to come up with something to push the boundaries a little, to get out of my comfort zone again...


Sigh, young (late teens-early20s) nice girls are always the most anxiety-inducing ones .
Do you have some particular trigger to your anxiety that you didn't made an exercise to counter ? Just a suggestion.


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## Diogenes1982

Woodoow said:


> Sigh, young (late teens-early20s) nice girls are always the most anxiety-inducing ones .
> Do you have some particular trigger to your anxiety that you didn't made an exercise to counter ? Just a suggestion.


Good question and suggestion. Speaking in front of groups of people has always and still does make me nervous, however I plan to address that when I'm further down the path with this shame attacking. Seeing that I get tongue tied with pretty girls, that's probably a good one to base an exercise on in the near future.

Today I went back to the main supermarket as yesterday; there was a guy doing demonstrations in front of a group of people trying to sell a special kind of knife. I chatted rubbish to a few people watching, then I started clapping for a couple of seconds which drew attention to me in front of about 15 people - this definitely was on the edge for me regarding limits at the mo. He announced the price of the knife to be £25, I shouted out , "£5", then he said he wasn't there to negotiate, then I shouted "£7", he ignored that. Again, that was the limit for me in how far I could go at that moment. I walked off and did some backwards walking, a few jokes with people, odd questions, suggesting weird combinations of foods when I saw people looking at certain items, things like that. I think tomorrow I'll do an outfit shame attack, I want people to openly look and laugh or scoff at me, and feel immune to them. Peace


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## AndreaXo

Woodoow said:


> Sigh, young (late teens-early20s) nice girls are always the most anxiety-inducing ones .


Can I ask why if you don't mind? Wouldn't you feel better if a young girl was nice and patient to you? I don't see why this would be anxiety inducing...?


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## Woodoow

AndreaXo said:


> Can I ask why if you don't mind? Wouldn't you feel better if a young girl was nice and patient to you? I don't see why this would be anxiety inducing...?


That's true in a way, but I care less about how I come accross to rude girls.


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## Diogenes1982

Time for today's update...another big supermarket was the venue - good places for exercises in my opinion, because it's possible to initiate chat quite easily, unlike just walking about a town. I parked up, took my polo shirt off, put my dressing gown on and red bandanna, locked up the car and walked in. This was the first time I'd been to a local central place place dressed as a mentalist, but to be honest, my previous 8 days of training meant that I slotted straight into feeling "ok" almost straight away. This feeling of not caring while dressed like I was felt good, especially compared to my state of mind before I started shame attacking; previously I'd be very self conscious just walking about a supermarket dressed normally, now Im indifferent to people even dressed in a bandanna and dressing gown! This has to be progress. Anyway, I did some random chatting with people, jokes, some suggesting of items people should have, Christmas singing (bing Crosby - white Christmas), saying good morning to people (it was evening time) and the occasional bit of backwards walking.


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## Diogenes1982

Today's post: more supermarket shenanigans, usual stuff - I'm sure y'all bored of hearin about it! Actually today it took me a while to loosen up and feel relaxed while acting the fool. I think I was too focused on eliciting a certain reaction from people, instead of just saying what weird stuff came to mind. Anyway, after 15/20 mins I got in the groove. Went to a retail park after Asda, was on fire being the village idiot, while not caring for any negative reactions. Peace.


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## mps625

*Interested in your stories*

This is some amazing stuff you're doing. As for me, I really enjoy hearing about it, gives me hope. I always start out pretty well at stuff like this but something happens that is really embarrassing to me and I lose steam after awhile.

For example, a few years back I was trying to get myself to go to parties more. If you ever heard of couchsurfing.org, the people associated with it often have parties at public venues. It was a little less scary than trying to meet strangers, because it's socially acceptable to talk to others at a party, but since I didn't know anybody, it was still awkward.

One time, I invited some people I met at my hostel (I was visiting Hong Kong at the time), and the people I invited ended up making complete asses of themselves. Getting ****faced, annoying everybody, pissing in the street, etc. I felt really embarrassed about it all since they were with me, and I couldn't force myself to go back the next time the party was held no matter how hard I tried.

Looking back, it probably wasn't a big of a issue as I thought, but try to convince me of that, then!

BTW, I noticed that every time you go out to shame attack, it seems you are playing a character, i.e. not being yourself. Have you ever thought of being real and saying normal things and asking normal questions to the people you meet? I mean, you probably have some things you'd really like to ask the people on the street, right? I just wonder if that would be harder than playing a lunatic character every time.

Keep up the good work! Hope you succeed at breaking out of your anxiety.


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## Diogenes1982

mps625 said:


> This is some amazing stuff you're doing. As for me, I really enjoy hearing about it, gives me hope. I always start out pretty well at stuff like this but something happens that is really embarrassing to me and I lose steam after awhile.
> 
> For example, a few years back I was trying to get myself to go to parties more. If you ever heard of couchsurfing.org, the people associated with it often have parties at public venues. It was a little less scary than trying to meet strangers, because it's socially acceptable to talk to others at a party, but since I didn't know anybody, it was still awkward.
> 
> One time, I invited some people I met at my hostel (I was visiting Hong Kong at the time), and the people I invited ended up making complete asses of themselves. Getting ****faced, annoying everybody, pissing in the street, etc. I felt really embarrassed about it all since they were with me, and I couldn't force myself to go back the next time the party was held no matter how hard I tried.
> 
> Looking back, it probably wasn't a big of a issue as I thought, but try to convince me of that, then!
> 
> BTW, I noticed that every time you go out to shame attack, it seems you are playing a character, i.e. not being yourself. Have you ever thought of being real and saying normal things and asking normal questions to the people you meet? I mean, you probably have some things you'd really like to ask the people on the street, right? I just wonder if that would be harder than playing a lunatic character every time.
> 
> Keep up the good work! Hope you succeed at breaking out of your anxiety.


Thanks for your post, and I'm glad you're enjoying reading the thread. It's always been the negative thoughts that have stopped me doing this up to now, but once you take the first step and then commit to it, you just end up getting in a routine; like any type of training. In my opinion we need to embrace the embarrassment - I've felt my face go red a number of times, but it's about controlling those feelings and realising that it really doesn't matter what people think of you anyway.

Yes, I've heard of couch surfing, and fair play to you for putting yourself out there in direct and close social situations with strangers - something I haven't been good at in the past. Obviously if we were to look at your situation rationally, you're blameless and shouldn't feel embarrassed, as you didn't know those guys would end up being drunken louts. Their behaviour was completely out of your control, therefore you shouldn't feel any responsibility for their actions. But of course, I know how irrational we can become at times!

You raise a good point. I've wondered with shame attacking; how far should we go with trying to provoke shameful reactions from the public by acting weirdly, while not becoming too much of a "character" which is easier to hide behind. Although it may sound like I'm always playing a character, I'm making sure that it's just an exaggerated version, sometimes very exaggerated(!) version, of myself, but "different" enough to provoke a strange look, laugh or complete shunning from the public. The aim of these exercises in my view; is to treat other's opinions of you with complete indifference, thereby freeing yourself from the fear of being judged by others, which as a consequence stops you doing the things you want to do in everyday life. Therefore, in order to challenge this hang-up I have about what people think of me, I believe the most effective and time efficient strategy for myself, is to do what I'm doing, while upping the ante a bit each time. Interestingly, sometimes after I've done a shame attacking exercise, I like to go and interact with the public just as myself, like you suggested *mps625*, in order to monitor my feelings of anxiety, and whether they've decreased. For instance yesterday, after my shop antics, I went to a couple of pubs and chatted normally to people without any great feelings of nervousness. I hardly had any worry about walking into places on my own, or what people thought of me. So doing this type of thing afterwards can be a valuable evaluation of how your training is going. Thanks mps625 for your comment.


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## Diogenes1982

I've decided to take today off, feeling tired and just generally feel like having a break. I did 6 days in a row this week, of 30-60 min durations. My plan is to continue tomorrow for another 6 days. Ideally I'd like to do 30 days in total and see where I am after that. So far I've done 10, and I do feel like it's making a positive difference. Have a good evening everyone, or day, depending where you are. Peace.


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## Diogenes1982

This evening I walked around my hometown in my dressing gown and bandanna, I felt comfortable almost straight away. There wasn't many people about due to the time, but I was surprised at how little attention I was receiving. People only seemed to laugh or smile when I said "good morning" to them, otherwise they either ignored me or just didn't notice. I had a couple of chats with people, one in the street and one in the betting shop. However in the betting shop I made myself laugh by telling the guy working there that I was going to have turkey for dinner. Not sure why I found this funny, but I did, so left shortly after and came home. Quite a short exercise today, but the location was a step up for me, even without huge numbers of people there.


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## Diogenes1982

By the way, I'm having pizza for dinner.


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## masterridley

I don't know about the other guys, but I certainly don't feel bored when I read these. If anything, I feel the opposite, anxious.

Do you think that after some point your mind will get it that there's nothing to be afraid of? Or do you think you'll relapse if/when you stop doing that?


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## Diogenes1982

masterridley said:


> I don't know about the other guys, but I certainly don't feel bored when I read these. If anything, I feel the opposite, anxious.
> 
> Do you think that after some point your mind will get it that there's nothing to be afraid of? Or do you think you'll relapse if/when you stop doing that?


Thanks, I'm pleased to hear it's not too boring to read about. Actually, I had the same feelings of anxiety which you have from reading this, when I watched some shame attacking on YouTube. A natural thing if you contemplate yourself doing something similar in the future I feel.

I'm not sure of the answer to your question to be honest. I think a month of these exercises could break the back of my social anxiety. However, I'll also need to prove to myself that my prior beliefs were false. So in order to really conquer this, I think I'll need this "2-pronged" approach; exposure/endurance and analysis/instilling of correct beliefs. I'm sure I'll have relapses sometimes, but perhaps the severity and frequency will be less and less with time. Something I've thought about is maybe just doing some shame attacking in the future when I feel like I need it - pretty easy just to go out for half an hour sometime in the day and do an exercise if you're feeling you need a boost, because that's what it gives you afterwards; quite a large boost!

Thanks for your comments and questions.


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## Diogenes1982

*Yesterday's update*

I went to a retail park yesterday and basically went in each shop there and initiated conversation with people. Sometimes it was normal with some added strangeness to get them to double take me, other times it was jokey and weird. On one occasion a man was looking at a table for sale, so I went up to him and acted liked I worked there, and told him it was "Amazonian" wood and we'd just got some in. He seemed to believe me; after a bit more chat I said, "come and find me if you have any more questions". This felt quite outrageous, but fun too. I was tempted to go home after this retail park, but as there wasn't loads of people there I decided to go to the supermarket to get more exposure. Usual stuff there; bit of backwards walking, random chats, singing White Christmas and suggesting to a woman she tries various yoghurts with fish and meats, and also to a big bloke that he should try pouring tea and coffee on his rice when he has Chinese food.


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## Diogenes1982

Forgot to say; I did some strange running and sidestepping outside the stores, as well as telling people they were selling computers for £5 inside.


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## Woodoow

I'm not that much on the internet these days but your stories are far from boring.


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## Diogenes1982

Woodoow said:


> I'm not that much on the internet these days but your stories are far from boring.


Thanks Woodoow; I'm relieved I'm not droning on too much.


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## Diogenes1982

*More supermarket capers*

Yes, you guessed it, back at a supermarket again today. They really are the perfect venues for this type of thing, in my opinion anyway. Always plenty of people there - whatever the time. Proximity to said people is also very good for chatting to, or being seen doing whatever you want to be seen doing. More backwards walking, a couple normal chats, several weird chats, some asking for strange items (bone shaped crisps that taste of sardines, meringue flavoured peanuts), weird food combination suggestions, White Christmas singing and whistling, stopping a staff member and pretending I'd forgotten what I was going to say - plenty of awkward pauses too, and paying for my items acting as if I hardly pay by card (asking if they accept cards, what's the minimum spend, giving my snooker club card as a loyalty card, forgetting PIN number). I also shouted out "hello" loudly - this could be a new one to start doing, as I felt a bit out of my comfort zone.


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## Winter22

I’ve never heard of shame attacking before, so reading this thread is really inspirational. I would never have the gall to do any of this stuff in public, at least not sober. For me it’s often the little things, like making small talk, that are the most challenging. I really look forward to finding out what effect all this has on your anxiety.


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## jimity

Diogenes1982 said:


> Today's post: more supermarket shenanigans, usual stuff - I'm sure y'all bored of hearin about it! Actually today it took me a while to loosen up and feel relaxed while acting the fool. I think I was too focused on eliciting a certain reaction from people, instead of just saying what weird stuff came to mind. Anyway, after 15/20 mins I got in the groove. Went to a retail park after Asda, was on fire being the village idiot, while not caring for any negative reactions. Peace.


This has got to be one of the best threads I've ever read! And funniest too.


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## jimity

Diogenes1982 said:


> I've wondered with shame attacking; how far should we go with trying to provoke shameful reactions from the public by acting weirdly, while not becoming too much of a "character" which is easier to hide behind. Although it may sound like I'm always playing a character, I'm making sure that it's just an exaggerated version, sometimes very exaggerated(!) version, of myself, but "different" enough to provoke a strange look, laugh or complete shunning from the public. The aim of these exercises in my view; is to treat other's opinions of you with complete indifference, thereby freeing yourself from the fear of being judged by others, which as a consequence stops you doing the things you want to do in everyday life. Therefore, in order to challenge this hang-up I have about what people think of me, I believe the most effective and time efficient strategy for myself, is to do what I'm doing, while upping the ante a bit each time. Interestingly, sometimes after I've done a shame attacking exercise, I like to go and interact with the public just as myself, like you suggested *mps625*, in order to monitor my feelings of anxiety, and whether they've decreased. For instance yesterday, after my shop antics, I went to a couple of pubs and chatted normally to people without any great feelings of nervousness. I hardly had any worry about walking into places on my own, or what people thought of me. So doing this type of thing afterwards can be a valuable evaluation of how your training is going. Thanks mps625 for your comment.


I was going to say something similar about shame attacking exercises.

1. You play a character and deliberately look and do foolish things in order to provoke reactions in order to realize that people's opinion of you don't really matter. But what about when you look foolish but were not planning on doing so and people react negatively and this might cause a different reaction inside of you because people are attacking the real you as opposed to the pretend you that is acting and doing silly things on purpose.

2. You are in control while shame attacking as opposed to when you do foolish things unintentionally and are not in control such as when in small talk and things get awkward or you blush or stammer and can't control it. For example. Whenever I trip on an uneven pavement I feel stupid and embarrassed. But if I were to do it on purpose just to see how others react I'm in a different mindset. Even if someone laughs I just think to myself that I did it on purpose so that means there isn't something wrong with me but if I tripped unintentionally and someone laughed I'd feel kinda humiliated (and this happend at school; I tripped and fell in front of 20 people while running and they all laughed).

3. These are people who don't know you and only see you once or a few times. What about doing this around people whom you often see and interact with and with people you want acceptance/approval from or want respect from. Doing silly things around them often enough will probably change their perception of you in a negative way. What about when you are not out shame attacking and just interacting with them in a friendly social setting. In the back of your mind you'll probably be thinking they think you're a bit of a nut and laughing behind your back. Might be ok if you don't mind not having much approval.

In conclusion. I think shame attacking is a powerful way to open up your mind and challenge beliefs and desensitize yourself to other people's opinions but if you aren't able to handle negative reactions it can backfire and lead to embarrassment to the point that you can't face the same people again.


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## Diogenes1982

Winter22 said:


> I've never heard of shame attacking before, so reading this thread is really inspirational. I would never have the gall to do any of this stuff in public, at least not sober. For me it's often the little things, like making small talk, that are the most challenging. I really look forward to finding out what effect all this has on your anxiety.


I thought the exact same as you when I first heard about shame attacking; no way could I do that in public. But, with enough desire to change, and a simple plan, anyone can do this. In my opinion, it's just about picking a suitable first step. The most recent posts I've done are not suitable first steps for the majority of people! There's no way I could've done these type exercises at the start, in fact I was very nervous when I first started; racing heartbeat, shallow breaths and sweaty palms. I remember when I first took my shades off when I was holding up the umbrella in my gloves and jacket on a gloriously sunny day. The fact that people could see my eyes really unnerved me at first, so I just stood still and got used to the feeling, and it gradually went. Then I started walking about more, and by the end of that session, I was whistling, walking backwards and saying good morning to people looking directly into their eyes without the shades. So if you give yourself a chance to get used to something slowly, chances are, you'll get used to it.

Thanks for your comments.


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## Diogenes1982

jimity said:


> This has got to be one of the best threads I've ever read! And funniest too.





jimity said:


> I was going to say something similar about shame attacking exercises.
> 
> 1. You play a character and deliberately look and do foolish things in order to provoke reactions in order to realize that people's opinion of you don't really matter. But what about when you look foolish but were not planning on doing so and people react negatively and this might cause a different reaction inside of you because people are attacking the real you as opposed to the pretend you that is acting and doing silly things on purpose.
> 
> 2. You are in control while shame attacking as opposed to when you do foolish things unintentionally and are not in control such as when in small talk and things get awkward or you blush or stammer and can't control it. For example. Whenever I trip on an uneven pavement I feel stupid and embarrassed. But if I were to do it on purpose just to see how others react I'm in a different mindset. Even if someone laughs I just think to myself that I did it on purpose so that means there isn't something wrong with me but if I tripped unintentionally and someone laughed I'd feel kinda humiliated (and this happend at school; I tripped and fell in front of 20 people while running and they all laughed).
> 
> 3. These are people who don't know you and only see you once or a few times. What about doing this around people whom you often see and interact with and with people you want acceptance/approval from or want respect from. Doing silly things around them often enough will probably change their perception of you in a negative way. What about when you are not out shame attacking and just interacting with them in a friendly social setting. In the back of your mind you'll probably be thinking they think you're a bit of a nut and laughing behind your back. Might be ok if you don't mind not having much approval.
> 
> In conclusion. I think shame attacking is a powerful way to open up your mind and challenge beliefs and desensitize yourself to other people's opinions but if you aren't able to handle negative reactions it can backfire and lead to embarrassment to the point that you can't face the same people again.


Thanks, good to hear you're enjoying it. It's not intentionally meant to be funny, however even I find myself laughing during these exercises. Sometimes it's so difficult to keep a straight face, but I'm ok at deadpan humour, so that helps a bit.

In response to your insightful points:

1. Like I mentioned before, I think it's important that during these exercises, you're only exaggerating the most extreme forms of your own character, in order to get used to people disapproving or laughing at you. Although, I dare to say, that even if you were playing a completely different character, you'd still gain some benefit.

2. All I can say is what I've found as a result of doing this; I'm much less concerned about other's opinions of myself in normal life. For instance, a couple of times recently, I've verbally tripped over my words when saying bye. Previously I'd be obsessing about how stupid that must've sounded to the other person(s), but since doing shame attacking, I hardly gave it a 2nd thought; I just knew I did it, and that it doesn't matter!

3. This is a good point, but it also opens up a very large subject on how most of us wrongly place our happiness/mental tranquility in things we can't control, such as our reputation with others. Personally, I believe that all we "should" care about, is to get as close as we can to fulfilling our potential as human beings before we die. You have to decide what this is; but if you ask me, I subscribe to the stoics beliefs on the subject. Therefore, what's most important to you? Worrying about what others think of you and changing your actions to suit them, or learning to fearlessly approach things in life which you have no control over.

Thanks for your post and comments about the thread.


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## Diogenes1982

I had a date yesterday, but managed to fit in some shame attacking beforehand. I stopped off at another supermarket and did the usual antics. I'm still surprised at how many people actually take me seriously when I ask for weird things, but then again, why wouldn't they!? I suppose they just think I'm weird, but quite frankly, who cares . An example; yesterday there was a guy dressed in his supermarket uniform, doing what looked to be like a stock check. It was obvious to anyone that he worked there...so I said, "excuse me, do you work here?", I think I saw a quick facial expression of annoyance at me interrupting him, and from asking an obvious question. Then I asked if they stocked my favourite fictional snack - "bone shaped crisps that taste of sardines". Anyway, he took this question seriously, and took me to his colleague where I had to describe it again. Amazingly his colleague thought he knew the item I was talking about! So all three of us went briskly walking over to the crisp aisle where he thought these fictional snacks were; it turns out, he was thinking of fish and chips flavoured crisps in the shape of fish, so he wasn't far out! Anyway, they were both very helpful, and I had a relatively normal chat with this 2nd colleague for a few mins afterwards. The public I encounter are the same, usually very friendly. I upped the ante a bit yesterday with my Christmas singing; there was a woman looking at some wines, and rather than just sing near her, I actually sang to her, "Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way, oh what fun it is to have, on a....". She looked at me and laughed nervously, then I said, "Oh I wish it was Christmas everyday!", then walked off. I also did some very loud blowing of my nose into a handkerchief, really as loud and comical as I could do - that got a bit of attention from a woman, then I said, "Ship coming in!".

The date went fine, there weren't too many awkward silences. I don't really get severe anxiety on a one to one basis, but I noticed that I had some nerves beforehand, but they were probably less than they'd normally be. Nerves in my opinion are a result of wishing to control something out of our control, i.e. - my date's approval of me. Therefore, something to work on in the future in these situations, is to liberate myself by not seeking any approval, rather just focus on _*getting in the flow of the present moment*_. That way, our true selves come out, and whatever the result, it's fate at work running through us. These are all just my opinions and viewpoints - I don't expect everyone to agree with my analysis, but equally I'm not stopping anyone starting their own thread about their experiences and beliefs. Peace.


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## Diogenes1982

Okay, so today I wanted a change of venue, but by the time I was ready to go out, it was pouring it down with rain. So, for a change, I went to another supermarket today! It might be my last time in this particular one for a while; I'll explain later.

Anyway, I walked in and picked up some tomatoes in a packet and started shaking them, as if checking for ripeness - some double takes. Then I started counting the slices in the bread packets, saying to a woman she should pick this packet because there's more slices in it. Obviously they were exactly the same, she humoured me. Had a long normal-ish chat with the woman at the fish counter, was asking her various questions about fish, which I actually did want to know the answers to. I saw a pretty young girl working there stacking shelves, went and had a little bit of a flirt with her - actually I asked her out casually, but she said no, however I was making her laugh at least. Too old for her! 

Saw an older guy in the frozen food aisle and said I'm practicing singing in public, and asked to sing a song to him. He said no, but I sang it anyway while he was walking away, and yes, it was Bing Crosby's White Christmas. He even joined in for a line! Next I found myself in the pet food aisle; there I suggested various alcoholic drinks to have while eating the dog food I saw on the shelves. They were confused but laughed generally. Had a few more random chats, then picked up a watermelon to buy. Deciding to take it up a notch, I shouted a few times in the store, "melon for a pound, melon for a pound". People looked at me and carried on shopping. After that I went and paid for my drink and melon, walked out, and started really shouting this time; "roll up, roll up, melon for a pound!". A couple of women who were talking started laughing...I did some more shouting, reducing the price a bit each time. Some guy said to me, "don't give up your day job mate.", while smiling, obviously knowing I wasn't a genuine vendor. I did it a couple more times, walked off and got in my car. Anyway, I was driving away, back past the entrance where I just was, and I saw security walking up and down as if they were looking for someone! I think that someone was me! Needless to say, I didn't hang around. Enjoyable exercise because I pushed my boundaries, nice rush after too.


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## irshad

Hey man you are very interesting 
Following your topic...


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## Diogenes1982

irshad said:


> Hey man you are very interesting
> Following your topic...


Thanks buddy, glad you're reading.


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## Diogenes1982

So today I had some family commitments, but I needed to get a few beers for the fridge, so I thought I'd do some quick shenanigans in a "new" supermarket on my way home. Walked across the car park and shouted "hello" loudly a few times - people looked around, and some looked straight at me bemused. Got in the store; sang Jingle Bells to a woman in the chilled meats aisle, she laughed and moved away. Then I saw a trendy looking bloke looking at something, I glided over to his right shoulder and started singing White Christmas to him - a full on serenade to this chap! He was generally amused but obviously confused. I finished singing and walked away backwards while giving him the thumbs up. I actually saw him later on, we had a bit of chat, I said I was practicing my singing voice in public, he said he wants to join in next time. Chilled out guy! A couple more random chats, walking backwards and acting weird at the till. I got out to the car park and started shouting, "two coronas for £10!", I did this a few times varying the pricing. Some ignored me, some shook their heads saying no, and one guy told me he doesn't drink.

Today's exercise was more of an afterthought; just to keep in the rythmn and tick off today. But, nevertheless, if you told me 2 weeks ago I'd be singing White Christmas to a bloke of my age, in a busy supermarket, I wouldn't have believed you.


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## mps625

Hey, your stuff has inspired me to go to a party last night and ask some questions that I normally wouldn't, such as "where did you get that necklace? It's the same one from the (horror) movie, Rosemary's Baby."

And today I'm wearing this odd combination of orange socks with shorts. Whenever I worry that I'm doing is going to make people disapprove of me, I just think "Shame Attack!" and it makes it alright.

I'm not at your level, yet, but it's good for me. Tons of props for doing this.


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## Diogenes1982

mps625 said:


> Hey, your stuff has inspired me to go to a party last night and ask some questions that I normally wouldn't, such as "where did you get that necklace? It's the same one from the (horror) movie, Rosemary's Baby."
> 
> And today I'm wearing this odd combination of orange socks with shorts. Whenever I worry that I'm doing is going to make people disapprove of me, I just think "Shame Attack!" and it makes it alright.
> 
> I'm not at your level, yet, but it's good for me. Tons of props for doing this.


It's great to hear you're giving this thing another try. Just slowly build up as you go, and you'll be doing all kinds of stuff you never imagined possible. I like what you've done so far! Feel free to post your stuff up on here...


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## Diogenes1982

Day off today folks, be back on it tomorrow. Peace.


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## Caterpillar13

Quote: Today I had family visiting, so I couldn't really vanish off without informing them of what I was doing, and I haven't decided who I'm going to tell as of yet about this. So I've done 4 days in a row, day off today, resume tomorrow. I do think it's given me more confidence already, but I might have to do it for a month or more, to really destroy my SA. By the way, it's actually quite enjoyable once you get into playing the "fool"! End Quote.

Ok so this is the part I'm interested in. Its one thing to act crazy in weird clothes infront of total strangers, but would u, for example, go to a school reunion like that, or a big family gathering? Do u not think about people driving past who know u, will recognise u, who will ask your family about how u are, or tell them they seen u? Do u ever worry or care about people in the future recognising u, and when u are chatting to them they are actually keeping u at arms length thinking 'that's that weirdo..' Do u live in a small town, r u not worried about being known as the weirdo, even after u stop the shame excersise, n this reputation following u around?
I know all of the above would happen if I did that here so if I was to decide to do this, I would have to be ok and comfortable in the knowledge that this may happen. I can see how it would be easier and maybe liberating to do this somewhere nobody knows u, or on holidays or somewhere, but would u do it around people who u know u will see again n again?
I'm just curious, has it really worked, do u actually not care about any of the above if it where to happen? Would u be ok with these people never knowing u where doing a shame excersise, n if asked, just telling them u did it cause u thought it would be fun or u just wanted to. I know what u believe etc, but my question is simply, would u do it without caring?


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## Tomyx

Two sentences max please, low attention span.


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## Caterpillar13

jimity said:


> I was going to say something similar about shame attacking exercises.
> 
> 1. You play a character and deliberately look and do foolish things in order to provoke reactions in order to realize that people's opinion of you don't really matter. But what about when you look foolish but were not planning on doing so and people react negatively and this might cause a different reaction inside of you because people are attacking the real you as opposed to the pretend you that is acting and doing silly things on purpose.
> 
> 2. You are in control while shame attacking as opposed to when you do foolish things unintentionally and are not in control such as when in small talk and things get awkward or you blush or stammer and can't control it. For example. Whenever I trip on an uneven pavement I feel stupid and embarrassed. But if I were to do it on purpose just to see how others react I'm in a different mindset. Even if someone laughs I just think to myself that I did it on purpose so that means there isn't something wrong with me but if I tripped unintentionally and someone laughed I'd feel kinda humiliated (and this happend at school; I tripped and fell in front of 20 people while running and they all laughed).
> 
> 3. These are people who don't know you and only see you once or a few times. What about doing this around people whom you often see and interact with and with people you want acceptance/approval from or want respect from. Doing silly things around them often enough will probably change their perception of you in a negative way. What about when you are not out shame attacking and just interacting with them in a friendly social setting. In the back of your mind you'll probably be thinking they think you're a bit of a nut and laughing behind your back. Might be ok if you don't mind not having much approval.
> 
> In conclusion. I think shame attacking is a powerful way to open up your mind and challenge beliefs and desensitize yourself to other people's opinions but if you aren't able to handle negative reactions it can backfire and lead to embarrassment to the point that you can't face the same people again.


I did not see any of this before I posted the above.


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## Diogenes1982

Caterpillar13 said:


> Quote: Today I had family visiting, so I couldn't really vanish off without informing them of what I was doing, and I haven't decided who I'm going to tell as of yet about this. So I've done 4 days in a row, day off today, resume tomorrow. I do think it's given me more confidence already, but I might have to do it for a month or more, to really destroy my SA. By the way, it's actually quite enjoyable once you get into playing the "fool"! End Quote.
> 
> Ok so this is the part I'm interested in. Its one thing to act crazy in weird clothes infront of total strangers, but would u, for example, go to a school reunion like that, or a big family gathering? Do u not think about people driving past who know u, will recognise u, who will ask your family about how u are, or tell them they seen u? Do u ever worry or care about people in the future recognising u, and when u are chatting to them they are actually keeping u at arms length, thinking u are an unstable person (as they saw u doing this stuff..) Do u live in a small town, r u not worried about being known as the weirdo, even after u stop the shame excersise, n this reputation following u around?
> I know all of the above would happen if I did that here.
> I'm just curious, has it really worked, do u actually not care about any of the above if it where to happen? Would u be ok with these people never knowing u where doing a shame excersise, n if asked, just telling them u did it cause u thought it would be fun or u just wanted to.


I completely understand what you're saying, and at the start (first few days) I was worried about people seeing me that I knew, or maybe even bumping into people I knew when walking past them in the street and having to have a conversation with them. In response to your question; I'm from a smallish town yes. However, I realised a while ago, with the help of stoic philosophy, that quite a bit of my anxiety in life has originated from these very same points you bring up - worrying about what other people think of me, while trying to control my reputation, which is essentially out of my control. Once I realised this, it became a case of just simply weighing up which I cared more about; being seen acting a bit weird and having people talk about me behind my back (so what anyway!? They're judging from a wrong supposition), or attempting to conquer my irrational fears in order to live the life I want. Not really much of a choice in my view.


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## irshad

Your thread title and your stories are motivating me a lot...
I also started shame attack personally in social anxiety situation...


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## Caterpillar13

Diogenes1982 said:


> I completely understand what you're saying, and at the start (first few days) I was worried about people seeing me that I knew, or maybe even bumping into people I knew when walking past them in the street and having to have a conversation with them. In response to your question; I'm from a smallish town yes. However, I realised a while ago, with the help of stoic philosophy, that quite a bit of my anxiety in life has originated from these very same points you bring up - worrying about what other people think of me, while trying to control my reputation, which is essentially out of my control. Once I realised this, it became a case of just simply weighing up which I cared more about; being seen acting a bit weird and having people talk about me behind my back (so what anyway!? They're judging from a wrong supposition), or attempting to conquer my irrational fears in order to live the life I want. Not really much of a choice in my view.


So the answer is yes, u would do it around family and friends without explination?

Maybe that's one of your next tasks so...

Great u feel so free.


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## Diogenes1982

irshad said:


> Your thread title and your stories are motivating me a lot...
> I also started shame attack personally in social anxiety situation...


I'm glad they're helping. Good luck!


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## Diogenes1982

Caterpillar13 said:


> So the answer is yes, u would do it around family and friends without explination?
> 
> Maybe that's one of your next tasks so...
> 
> Great u feel so free.


Funnily enough, I've already done some backwards walking in front of direct family, just to see their reaction - they laughed and said I was weird. But, as for dressing up and really being strange at a family gathering without explanation, that's beyond me just now! I'd love to hear from anyone who's done something similar, and what the reactions were. Personally though, I don't think we need to put ourselves through such extreme circumstances as caterpillar is suggesting, in fact, this is quite an irresponsible suggestion to someone you don't know. In my opinion, it's enough to do these things in public with "the chance" of being seen by friends or acquaintances; this is plenty extreme enough to get the benefits of shame attacking.


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## Diogenes1982

Thanks for your posts caterpillar.


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## Diogenes1982

Yesterday I went into town; did some singing in the street while I walked past people, looking into their eyes while doing so. The song - "How much is that doggy in the window?". Next I shouted out; "6 bananas for £3!", and continued doing this altering the price a few times, before shouting out prices for potatoes. People looked at me, unsure what to make of it, and just carried on. Ended up in Tesco, doing the usual antics.

As I feel like I'm going through the motions a bit now, and I've gained enough confidence to actually do things like this in public, I plan to target situations which induce greater levels of anxiety. Some of these things, in no particular order, are; talking to girls I find attractive, public speaking, approaching/talking to groups of people. Today I plan to ask out a girl or two, providing there's no boyfriend there to give me a black-eye.


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## Diogenes1982

Successful day! Today I asked out more girls in the space of a couple of hours, than I have in the last couple of years! Probably more like 5 years actually....

4 girls and 4 no's, but I feel good. Yes, not exactly the returns of a champ, but I'm being honest when I say; the answers were of secondary importance. I've hardly ever approached "stranger" girls before, so this has probably been one of my biggest achievements in the last 3 weeks to date. This is thanks to shame attacking, although this was also a shame attacking exercise in itself.

Two said no outright, although I was probably too old to be asking them out anyway! The other 2 had boyfriends (so they said at least!) but seemed quite receptive to my approaches. I asked politely, they all declined politely, and the best bit is - I was indifferent to the rejection. If I tried this previously, I would've been really tense, the words would've come out wrong, and I'd have wanted the ground to swallow me up after their answers. Being able to approach these girls and deal indifferently with the rejection is a direct result of my shame attacking training.


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## Diogenes1982

*Today's update*

I went to a grocery shop today first, had a couple of weird chats. I wanted to buy some chewing gum but couldn't see where it was; there was a queue of about 6 people waiting in line for the tills, so I walked up to this queue and said, "has anyone seen the chewing gum?". A helpful bloke directed me to the next aisle. This was a shame attack aimed at speaking in front of groups, and I felt glad I'd done it after. Off to the supermarket; I did this same type thing asking 3 women for a female's opinion on a birthday card depicting a miniature horse. I said it was for my dad, they were unsure what to think of this but helpful regardless. I then did this again in the bread aisle in front of 4 people; "Excuse me, has anyone tried this bread before, is it nice?". A woman found this quite amusing but was giving me her opinion on it anyway, nice lady! I continued walking around the supermarket doing various antics, and then left.

I was looking for some cute looking girls now to ask out - I eventually found 2, both said they were taken! They were much hotter the closer I got, probably out of my league to be honest, but good practice. Again though, still quite receptive and thanked me for asking. I really have no idea if these girls are just giving me the brush off, or whether they genuinely have partners, however it's a good shame attacking exercise which should help for when I meet someone I genuinely like.

In my opinion I have to push myself each time I do these exercises to feel like I've benefited. So far so good. Peace.


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## irshad

Thanks man for sharing.
.
By the way yesterday I've also had a shame attack experience, I've volunteered to lead in prayer to ten people who had more authority and experienced than me
Initially my voice started stuttering but it became smooth later on...
.
I pat myself Good improvement..


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## Diogenes1982

irshad said:


> Thanks man for sharing.
> .
> By the way yesterday I've also had a shame attack experience, I've volunteered to lead in prayer to ten people who had more authority and experienced than me
> Initially my voice started stuttering but it became smooth later on...
> .
> I pat myself Good improvement..


That's the spirit! Nice one. If we can continually do things which are just outside our comfort zone, and overcome them one way or the other, then there's sure to be an improvement.

Good stuff irshad.


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## Diogenes1982

I went back to the retail park today:

I kept jogging past one particular middle aged man in this store, had to ask him to move so I could get by on one occasion. More time and antics passed, I went to walk out of the store and the shoplifting detector alarm went off when I walked out! Not wanting to miss a good opportunity, I walked back in and held up my arms with my feet apart like you do when being searched to go into a club or airport security. The manager found this funny but I acted serious. He said for me to walk out to check if the alarm went again, I walked out with my hands on my head, no alarm.

Something new for today: initiating chats with people relatively normally, then when the conversation seemed to be naturally ending, I'd continue it with more questions. "What are you up to later?", "Have you had a good day?", while following them around the store.

I was in an electronics store talking to a worker; demo sound systems playing music. I asked this guy about one we were next to, and whether I could turn it up. He said sure, so I kept pressing the volume + button until it was blaring out. I looked at 3/4 sales staff standing a few feet away, they were in a bit of disbelief while laughing. The guy I was with told me to turn it down because there were sales taking place. I also said to the group of sales guys after, that I couldn't turn it down, which was true; the staff bloke I was with had to as the button wouldn't respond to me. Quite an awkward minute or 2 there, but amusing.

Later I was outside the 99p store where all the different baskets were for you to carry your shopping. There were 2 guys in suits there, looked to be head office types. I asked them if the shopping baskets were 99p, they were unsure what to make of me. I ended it by saying I'd try and find cheaper elsewhere. Jogged to the next store.

In the motoring store, I got very close to a customer and a sales guy trying to sell a sat-nav. I was attempting to read the product details they were right infront of. Obviously I was massively infringing on their personal space, not normal behaviour. Anyway, the guy decided to buy this top of the range product, sales bloke went off to get it and I walked with the customer to the desk - had a chat with him. The phone was ringing on the desk there for a while, so I picked it up, "hello?", the guy on the other end was bemused - "who is this?, I said; "I'm a customer, who's this?". This carried on for a while until a staff member turned up, at which point I told him he had a call. I passed over the phone and carried on talking to the man buying the sat-nav. I was also listening to the guy who I passed the phone to, he was laughing saying a customer answered the phone. I tried very hard not to crack up during all this, and succeeded, just.

Said in the supermarket to a few women while holding up some spare ribs, "excuse me, has anyone cooked these before, what are they like?". Did the same in the beer aisle to some guys - they were foreign, didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

Oh, asked a girl out going into the supermarket, she said no while laughing.

Anyway, end of essay, peace.


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## Diogenes1982

I was a bit late starting today's exercise, as I was talking to a very intelligent member on this forum and time got away from me. No complaints though .

I decided to stay local and visit the usual haunts; went to a mini supermarket, followed a guy inside while chatting to him, asking him questions strangers don't, continued to ask him questions as he walked around. He was definitely trying to shake me off his tail! Next, did some bad maths trying to work out % discounts when chatting to a worker there, asking obvious questions. Walked out and started chatting to a young bloke (24 I'd guess), then his mate came out, asked them questions, they were in a band, had a bit of weird chat. Conversation came to a natural ending, I continued it; "are you walking this way lads, I'll walk with you, I'll show you around." They laughed nervously, we walked along, I pointed out the obvious, "this is a chinese takeaway, this is a sandwich shop, and there's the town's only fire engine." We walked about 20 metres and got to their car, said our goodbyes and parted ways. They obviously thought I was nuts. Spoke to a woman before getting into my car, she asked me what the fire engine was doing there, I said there was a ferret stuck down the drain, as I'd heard the firemen say; "ferret alert!". She bought it. 

I went to a large supermarket next, did more conversations where I followed people asking them questions while they were trying to lose me basically. All quite amusing. Got to the wine aisle, an attractive woman was there looking at white wines. I said, "These are white wines, and behind you are red wines." She was struggling not to laugh at my oddness, and said, "ok thanks". I replied, "that's fine, let me know when you've decided." She said, "I will thanks". I saw a woman I'd been talking to earlier, went and chatted to her again. She was looking at vegetarian options, I was giving comments on all the items in there, and taking everything she said with a different meaning. Example - I opened up the freezer door and said it was a good way to cool down on a hot day, then I urged her to open the one in front of her, she did. Then she said it was a waste of energy (carbon footprint), and I agreed; "yeah the calories I expended opening that door could've been used for something else." I then took it up a notch with her; I said a particular item looked like cat sick fritters, and remarked that earlier that day I'd cleaned up some cat sick on the pavement, or what I thought was cat sick! Sorry for the crudeness, but this was a good shame attack thing to talk about, however I was on the verge of laughing, so I had to feign that the thought was making me feel sick. I made my excuses and left. Walked out looking for a nice girl/woman, saw one and asked if we can swap numbers, she said no as she was married. Fair enough.

Ended up in the central town huge supermarket, shouted out loud in the underground car park, "alright mate, how you doing?", everyone looked round at me, I continued walking into the store. Had some chat with security, bit strange. Wasn't sure what to do, but I saw the pharmacy desk with a sign at the end saying, "help and advice". This had legs I thought. I went and stood under the sign and by this part of the counter and waited. Chatted to a guy next to me, offered him some of my diet coke, he said no thanks. Finally the woman finished serving him and came over to me, "how can I help sir?". I said that I was thinking of getting a mortgage, and I was unsure with rates where they are at the moment whether I should get a tracker or fixed mortgage. She looked confused and said, "umm we're a pharmacy...we don't...err", I stood back and pointed at the 'Help and Advice' sign. Her colleague peered around the corner smiling saying "no, we're just pharmacy", I pretended to slowly understand what was occurring. Apologised and said bye. Satisified with this bit of the exercise, as I wanted to back out while waiting but just did it anyway. The rest of it was the usual weirdness and odd chats, not letting people go when they walked away etc. Feeling very comfortable speaking to literally anyone when I do these exercises now - due to continual exposure while not seeking other's approval (in fact the opposite), liberating.

I'm writing so much these days, I'll look to make it more concise from now on. Peace.


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## Tinabelle

I love reading these! You are a very inspiring and courageous person. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences.


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## schen5

Classic mate especially the mortgage hahahahaha you remind me of Steven Merchant

OMg I know what u should do...

I know this friend who is complete radical hipster flat out...

He grew out his hair super long and shaggy, wears a red bandanna, sunglasses, funky hipster plaid shirt, painted fingernails, makeup and he gets around using a 10 ft tall unicycle. Legit its like he's purposely trying to draw attention to himself in everything he does-- he looks like a total freak and everyone respects him 1000x more even though he's actually not that interesting

Jk...... well you could i guess just for one day if ur feeling really bold


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## Diogenes1982

Tinabelle said:


> I love reading these! You are a very inspiring and courageous person. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences.


Thanks for you comments, I'm glad you're enjoying reading. Anything one man can do, so can another.


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## Diogenes1982

schen5 said:


> Classic mate especially the mortgage hahahahaha you remind me of Steven Merchant
> 
> OMg I know what u should do...
> 
> I know this friend who is complete radical hipster flat out...
> 
> He grew out his hair super long and shaggy, wears a red bandanna, sunglasses, funky hipster plaid shirt, painted fingernails, makeup and he gets around using a 10 ft tall unicycle. Legit its like he's purposely trying to draw attention to himself in everything he does-- he looks like a total freak and everyone respects him 1000x more even though he's actually not that interesting
> 
> Jk...... well you could i guess just for one day if ur feeling really bold


Yeah I did quite enjoy that one, nearly started smiling but held it together. It's quite easy to unintentionally turn these interactions into jokes, but I try to remind myself I'm looking for the disapproving reaction or bemused look in order to become desensitised to other's opinions of me, so that stops me from cracking up usually. Walking away though, I'll often have a laugh to myself.

That's great your friend acts exactly how he wants without regard to conventions of what's "normal". He's either knowingly or unknowingly conditioning himself to indifference of opinion everyday - a good thing to do if you ask me. I might add the nail varnish, thanks for the suggestion, although I need some that would come off easily when I'm finished!

I appreciate your post.


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## Diogenes1982

Yesterday I went to another supermarket, and then into town after. I started by checking tomatoes by shaking them in the packets, then suggesting to a woman she should have various ones I chose for her, she declined. Had a few normal chats with people in there about the awful weather, I said there were hurricanes coming later. I decided I wanted to do some speaking in front of groups; I went to the beer aisle, there was 4/5 people there, I said, "Can anyone recommend me some beer to buy, as I don't really drink much?". I think 2 guys just ignored me and walked off, but the other 2 spoke, and one of them asked what I was looking for. He picked out an ale for me, which I ended up buying, helpful bloke!

I saw the tomato woman later on in a different part of the store; I asked her what she was looking for, she said tomato puree - obviously loves tomatoes. I tried to help her locate it, but when we couldn't see it in an aisle where 4 people were, I loudly said, "Does anyone know where the tomato puree is?". The woman was quite embarrassed by this, but she was laughing. A couple behind me (I didn't realise they were there) directed us over to the next aisle.

Did a couple more strange chats with people and sang the first verse of White Christmas to a bloke next to the pickled onions section. I told him my mate ate a whole jar of jalapeno peppers and passed out for 2 hours, and when he came around he couldn't speak. He found this odd and amusing.

Left the store and went into town next. Walked into a card shop and started talking to the girl who was from head office helping out there for the day. I kept asking her advice on inappropriate cards to get my brother for his fictitious 40th birthday. It was quite an enclosed shop but i didn't feel self conscious at all while talking weirdly to her, progress. I actually then asked her out for a drink, and whoever was there would've been able to hear this very easily. She declined as she had a boyfriend who she lives with apparently. I asked her how their relationship is going, she thinks he's "the one". Good for her.

Went to a bookshop next, was intending to do more weirdness, but ended up buying a book and having a very intense conversation with the manager there about philosophy. Again, I didn't feel self conscious at all, and there were people in the shop, as well as another worker. No way could I have done this 3 weeks ago without any regard to who was listening, or get so absorbed in the conversation.

Day off today, have a good Sunday all.


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## Caterpillar13

If a guy or girl ever starts talking obviously strange to me or following me like above do u think I should b nice incase its a shame attack or just go on with my business n try shake the person off...? I don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings if they are new to it. But at same time I might panic.


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## Diogenes1982

Caterpillar13 said:


> If a guy or girl ever starts talking obviously strange to me or following me like above do u think I should b nice incase its a shame attack or just go on with my business n try shake the person off...? I don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings if they are new to it. But at same time I might panic.


Whatever you're comfortable with. I've had plenty of people just ignore me, it goes with the territory. If someone is shame attacking by speaking to you (quite a small chance considering how few people know about it and are willing to do it), they'll be expecting and wanting disapproving reactions, so you can't do any wrong. Just do whatever you want .


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## Caterpillar13

thanks


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## irshad

Now my update
.
I volunteered to do a difficult oral surgery to a patients which some doctors avoided.
When i said yes to the patient the other doctor and attendees were astonished.
I did it while being videotaped and watched by a doctor and some attendees.
Under full pressure and toxic social anxiety i performed surgery which lasted 2hrs. I started stuttering in the middle but i recalled your shame attack technique and felt calm later on...
Then finally i successfully completed surgery..
Had passed stressfull circumstances


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## Diogenes1982

irshad said:


> Now my update
> .
> I volunteered to do a difficult oral surgery to a patients which some doctors avoided.
> When i said yes to the patient the other doctor and attendees were astonished.
> I did it while being videotaped and watched by a doctor and some attendees.
> Under full pressure and toxic social anxiety i performed surgery which lasted 2hrs. I started stuttering in the middle but i recalled your shame attack technique and felt calm later on...
> Then finally i successfully completed surgery..
> Had passed stressfull circumstances


Great effort, but what you're doing here is infinitely more impressive than anything I've done on this thread. From my experience, when I feel nervous, it's because I'm trying to control something out of my control. If I was an expert in your field like you are, I'd be trying to tell myself that I know what I'm doing and I have no control over the doctor's and attendee's thoughts about me, so I just have to do what I've trained and studied for. It's fantastic you're taking on these challenges though, that's how we progress in anything.


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## Diogenes1982

For the last week I've been sleeping on average 5 and a half hours a night, which for me isn't enough; today it caught up with me. I also haven't had a day off drinking for probably a couple of weeks now, so no alcohol tonight. As a result of these late nights and possibly no break from booze, I've felt a bit edgy today, particularly at moments during today's exercise.

I needed to buy some things for dinner tonight and post a few letters too. Went to the supermarket, had some chats on the way in; told a couple it looks like lightning and I've got a fear of lightning after my mate survived being hit by a bolt of the stuff, however now he's causes static with everything he touches. Nice people.

Had to buy some eggs, so got to one of the aisles; there must've been 5/6 people there, so I said loudly, "Excuse me, does anyone know where the eggs are? I don't shop here often." A couple looked up and ignored me/froze, a couple laughed, and a couple of guys directed me - helpful. I felt quite comfortable doing this today which was good. A couple more weird chats followed, one being with a worker there telling her I was making a kiwi, banana and ale cake for my gran. I said she loves extreme sports so I wanted to put an edible Incredible Hulk on the cake. She found this strange and amusing, but took me seriously.

One thing that threw me today: I was just about to ask out a girl, but then the boyfriend/husband turned up looking at me! I said I thought I knew her, but then said I was mistaken, and just carried on looking at items in the aisle. This was bound to happen, however it did unsettle me a bit. Went to talk to another girl I'd said something to earlier, she just said hi and walked away. Started talking to a bloke about dvd's, told him I can't watch too much blood and gore as it makes me feel ill. He pointed out a dvd I should see, so I started reading the back of the box to him in a busy part of the store, carried on doing this for quite a while. He asked me what I did for a job, I told him I used to be a vet, but because of something which went wrong in an operation, I no longer practice, instead I'm doing some labouring for my bro. Anyway, we parted ways and he said he enjoyed chatting. Nice bloke.

Left the store and went to a group of shops near an estate. Walked into the bookmakers, had a bit of chat. Asked the young guy (20-23) how much the chairs were? He said they werent for sale, I said "Ok, what about these ones?". They're not for sale either he told me. I asked if he wanted to go for a pint - he had to work 'til 10pm. I went over to the coffee machine area and got one of those little milk pots. Brought it over to the desk, pulled back the foil and starting sipping it while chatting to him. "Ah that's better, lots of goodness in milk! Want a sip mate?". He declined. Finished my free milk, and walked out.

Went into the chinese next door. "Hi, how much are the menus?". They're free, the Chinaman replied. I left the takeaway, and saw a guy sitting in his car with his window down; I started reading the menu to him, he was laughing, "why are you reading me out the menu?". I carried on, "sweet and sour chicken balls, Wonton soup...", he started reversing and pulled away, i jogged next to his open window, "sweet chilli chicken, chicken and cashews...". End of exercise.


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## Diogenes1982

I have no doubt these people leave me thinking I'm extremely strange, but that's the aim. It doesn't bother me seeing them again, in fact I think I'm starting to become recognised judging from long 2nd looks I'm getting off some individuals when I'm in town being "normal".


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## TheWelshOne

I love this thread  Very inspirational and I hope you continue to keep us all updated!


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## Diogenes1982

TheWelshOne said:


> I love this thread  Very inspirational and I hope you continue to keep us all updated!


Thanks for you post! I'm glad you're reading....and yes, I'll continue to update this thread - I haven't got any immediate plans of ceasing my shame attack "training", so I'll be around for the foreseeable.

All the best.


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## Sourdog

Haha great thread man keep it up, very inspirational . I'm going to do an exercise soon where I buy an item and try to return it without a receipt. The goal for me is to try and get into a verbal confrontation with someone. I'm very passive and avoid confrontation so I thought this would be an excellent beginner exercise for me.


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## NomadicWonder

I can't even look at a person in the eyes without getting the urge to throw up from anxiety. My heart beats frantically and my limbs turn into noodles. Do you believe that doing all of these outrageous things are going to help you when someone shames you for being YOU? People are weirded out by the false version you are presenting to them, not the real you. Do you think all of these exercises will help you keep your composure when someone actually tries to shame the real you? It would be amazing if I could actually converse with strangers and genuinely not care what they think.

I am open to doing this stuff if it actually helps me become more confident when I genuinely want to talk to someone I find interesting.


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## Diogenes1982

Sourdog said:


> Haha great thread man keep it up, very inspirational . I'm going to do an exercise soon where I buy an item and try to return it without a receipt. The goal for me is to try and get into a verbal confrontation with someone. I'm very passive and avoid confrontation so I thought this would be an excellent beginner exercise for me.


I appreciate your comment. Good luck with your exercise, sounds an interesting one, let us know how it goes.


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## Diogenes1982

NomadicWonder said:


> I can't even look at a person in the eyes without getting the urge to throw up from anxiety. My heart beats frantically and my limbs turn into noodles. Do you beleive that doing all of these outragous things are going to help you when someone shames you for being YOU? People are weirded out by the false version you are presenting to them, not the real you. Do you think all of these exercises will help you keep your composure when someone actually tries to shame the real you? It would be amazing if I could actually converse with strangers and genuinely not care what they think.
> 
> I am open to doing this stuff if it actually helps me become more confident when I geniuinely want to talk to someone I find interesting.


As I've said a few times on this thread prior; although I'm doing some odd stuff, I'm still being me. Like I mentioned previously, I believe it's important NOT to play a character when doing this, in order to feel the ridicule/shunning/bemused reaction, as you. Will I be able to brush off the next personal insult? I intend to be able to through study and practice (already done and ongoing), but I'll let you know when it happens.

For myself, it's making a difference, and yes I'm more confident as a result. However, I'm not solely relying on shame attacking to make myself immune to other's opinions of me; I'm trying to prove my old beliefs as incorrect, and replace them with correct ones. Having a new mindset or philosophy to live your life by, isn't an overnight task.

I would say; give it a go, but just start lightly. Have a search on this subject, read about it, and then decide what you're going to do.

Thanks for your comments.


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## NomadicWonder

Diogenes1982 said:


> As I've said a few times on this thread prior; although I'm doing some odd stuff, I'm still being me. Like I mentioned previously, I believe it's important NOT to play a character when doing this, in order to feel the ridicule/shunning/bemused reaction, as you. Will I be able to brush off the next personal insult? I intend to be able to through study and practice (already done and ongoing), but I'll let you know when it happens.
> 
> For myself, it's making a difference, and yes I'm more confident as a result. However, I'm not solely relying on shame attacking to make myself immune to other's opinions of me; I'm trying to prove my old beliefs as incorrect, and replace them with correct ones. Having a new mindset or philosophy to live your life by, isn't an overnight task.
> 
> I would say; give it a go, but just start lightly. Have a search on this subject, read about it, and then decide what you're going to do.
> 
> Thanks for your comments.


I have done some really strange things in the past just to see how people reacted..and it's never as bad as I anticipate it to be. I once wore giant flamboyant female sunglasses into a bank and opened up an account there. I was very serious and businesslike, but the sunglasses were just ridiculous. They were pink and had glittery designs all over them. The men thought I was strange (probably gay) but the women were smiling (they too, probably thought I was gay). No one mentioned them even though you could tell they wanted to ask me what I was all about.

I was once at the pharmacy picking up a prescription for Vicodin because I had an injury and just for the hell of it I asked the pharmacist "I got really drunk last night, I'm so hung over, will this make me feel better?". He looked at me very strangely (as expected) and said yes, as long as I eat when taking it. I said it out loud so everyone would hear me. I got some smiles..but no ridicule. Very strange.

It's weird. Anytime I try and prepare myself for some strange and hurtful reaction from someone for doing something stupid, they never do what I expect. They don't do anything! It's whenever I'm not expecting it and whenever I'm not doing strange things that their ridicule or demeaning attitude shows up. I suppose it's linked with confidence. Whenever I'm trying to get ridicule by doing strange things, I'm confident because I want it to happen, and I'm expecting it. I think most people can sense this confidence and because of it they don't do anything. I think the ridicule only comes if people sense that you DO care about what they think. When you blatantly don't give a **** they kind of back off, and may even admire you no matter what you're doing.


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## Diogenes1982

The notable encounters and conversations today:

- Went to BHS, asked the woman at the counter if they had an upright standing arrow shaped cup. I told her a guy with a beard outside the entrance said I should buy one after I told him I was intending to buy some mugs for my house. Then I said to her I thought I'd been had by a wind-up merchant as I always fall for these type things. I then had to explain this whole story to another 2 people not including the original woman who was also there. Good practice for talking in front of people. I then made out I saw the guy with the beard who'd been winding me up, and took chase of him out of the store.

- Asked out a girl on the counter at Boots, she said no.

- In Laura Ashley; I shouted across the shop to a staff member who was with a customer talking already. I wouldn't do this in everyday life, but it seemed pretty outrageous, although I was still polite, just a bit nuts. After the other customer left, I told the woman working there that my house lights had been short circuited in an electrical storm, so I was looking for replacements. I tried to barter with her on already reduced items, and asked if I gave her my money, could she buy the lights using her staff discount. I suggested I'd give her half the amount saved in cash for her troubles, she declined. I said I'd throw in a Twix, then a Double decker, a Lion bar, a Jammy Dodger, a Bonbon...she declined all of these. I left.

- Walked into an estate agents, sat down in front of a girl. I said I was looking for a house to rent, 2 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms, a snooker room, a double garage, and 3 acres of land. She said it would be approx £2,500 per month, I told her I wanted to pay £350, but I might go up to £400. I asked if the landlord was willing to negotiate, she said no. I gave another ridiculous spec, again she said I didn't have a chance. Walked out after a few mins of chatting.

- I was approaching the pedestrian crossing, there were two attractive girls just behind me, and a bloke a bit past them. The green man was flashing indicating time was running out to cross. I told everyone to be very careful crossing, as they don't want to get hit by cars, very dangerous crossing roads. They were laughing, I said it was no laughing matter life and death. Kept telling them not to cross yet as cars were still coming, eventually the green man lit up again, "Ok, now you can cross!".

- Read out a Dennis the Menace book in the book aisle of the supermarket for whoever was there, looked at a few while doing so. Also read out the back of a soup carton in a story telling manner to a few women. Asked a few people in one aisle if they were all ok, only one girl smiled and answered.

The end.


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## Diogenes1982

NomadicWonder said:


> I have done some really strange things in the past just to see how people reacted..and it's never as bad as I anticipate it to be. I once wore giant flamboyant female sunglasses into a bank and opened up an account there. I was very serious and businesslike, but the sunglasses were just ridiculous. They were pink and had glittery designs all over them. The men thought I was strange (probably gay) but the women were smiling (they too, probably thought I was gay). No one mentioned them even though you could tell they wanted to ask me what I was all about.
> 
> I was once at the pharmacy picking up a prescription for Vicodin because I had an injury and just for the hell of it I asked the pharmacist "I got really drunk last night, I'm so hung over, will this make me feel better?". He looked at me very strangely (as expected) and said yes, as long as I eat when taking it. I said it out loud so everyone would hear me. I got some smiles..but no ridicule. Very strange.
> 
> It's weird. Anytime I try and prepare myself for some strange and hurtful reaction from someone for doing something stupid, they never do what I expect. They don't do anything! It's whenever I'm not expecting it and whenever I'm not doing strange things that their ridicule or demeaning attitude shows up. I suppose it's linked with confidence. Whenever I'm trying to get ridicule by doing strange things, I'm confident because I want it to happen, and I'm expecting it. I think most people can sense this confidence and because of it they don't do anything. I think the ridicule only comes if people sense that you DO care about what they think. When you blatantly don't give a **** they kind of back off, and may even admire you no matter what you're doing.


I'd imagine if you kept doing things like those you've mentioned, while upping the ante as you became more comfortable, you'd certainly see some benefit. Remembering also, that other's opinions of you are totally out of your control, and not necessary for happiness.

I get what you're saying; sometimes I'm amazed at how normal the reactions of people are to my abnormal behaviour. But that only encourages me to go further to make sure I get the weird looks, nervous laughs, or complete shunning. In fact, if people realise I'm not genuinely odd, or if they just think I'm joking, I consider this a failed encounter. But I'm quite hard on myself, and I'm sure I've still gained some benefit just by talking to strangers. I expect it's the same for you; in that you still gained benefit from talking to those people, even if they didn't openly mock you. They probably did when you left anyway! But that's what we want, and the realisation that it doesn't matter.


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## butwhy

Have you ever thought about filming those conversations? There are some guys on youtube doing similar things and making money out of it. I'll post some links so you can check











http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7a7-qzMZgLs#t=31
















You will have an excuse for acting weird. Nobody will think you are nuts after you tell them it was just a joke.


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## Diogenes1982

butwhy said:


> Have you ever thought about filming those conversations? There are some guys on youtube doing similar things and making money out of it. I'll post some links so you can check
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7a7-qzMZgLs#t=31
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You will have an excuse for acting weird. Nobody will think you are nuts after you tell them it was just a joke.


I have thought about recording them, but only to give as an example for this thread. However, as the only recorder and mic I possess is on my phone, I'm unsure of the plausibility.

Thanks for the links, they were amusing.

Something I read and tend to agree with; is we shouldn't try and make excuses for our odd behaviour while shame attacking. My interpretation of why we shouldn't and why we do, is because it means we're still concerned with our reputation and other's opinions, so we attempt to control their reactions and lessen the shame. So for the last couple of weeks since realising this, I'm purposefully not explaining my behaviour to anyone, even if they ask. Previously when asked why I was singing White Christmas, I might have told them I was practicing my singing voice in public, or that I just love Christmas so much. Not entirely exercise defeating, but when I don't give any explanations, I feel much less in control of the situation, therefore a myriad of public reactions are possible on which I can practice my indifference.


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## Diogenes1982

Today's report follows in brief form, because I'm tired :yawn:

Mixed up today with normal chat and weirdness, mainly because I'm a bit bored of being odd 6 days out of 7  

- Went into the betting shop, had a normal chat with the 2 staff at the counter in front of the rest of the shop, don't think anyone was listening anyway.

- Chatted to a couple of women outside the 99p shop, normalish chat, but weird I just stopped to chat to randoms.

- Went into the coffee shop, two staff members were looking at the work rota on the customer side of the desk. I went and joined in pointing at the rota saying I could do Fridays. Shone my key-ring torch at the rota, "can you see now alright guys?". Had some oddish alternative chat with them, they were a bit different anyway, but in a good way.

- Walked into Burger King, asked them if they sold spaghetti bolognaise, they said no!? Continued to ask if they did any pasta dishes, again no.

- Tesco time: Weird chats and weird questions to people, normal chats too (helped a woman pick out some lager for a BBQ), whistling, found some women hair extensions and put them on my thinning head of hair - asked the staff if it looked good. In the men's toiletries aisle, must've been a good 7 people there, "Hi, excuse me guys, does anyone know if this deodorant (Lynx Africa) is nice?". A guy answered saying it was, had a bit of chat, all good. Biggest group I've spoken directly to yet.

- Asked a girl if she wanted to swap numbers, she was taken and had kid apparently (she was in the toy aisle, which I noticed post question). Carried on talking to her, wasn't embarrassed at all by her refusal.

That's all folks.


----------



## Shadowweaver

Interesting thing about shame attacking exercises is that the experiences strongly differ in different environments. I used to live in Russia, and when I did the exercises there, people were really shocked, laughed at me, cursed me, stared awkwardly and so on.

Now, here, in the US, a couple of days ago I screamed on a huge crossing, "USA! USA! USA!", like a madman - and, instead of usual shocking reactions I'm used to from Russian experience, people smiled at me, waved their hands and so on. It looks like shame attacking exercises here in America are much easier to pull off, so I need to think of something more extreme to challenge myself now.


----------



## mps625

*My shame attacks*

Hey Diogenes, your stuff is really inspiring. I think you're helping out a lot of people here, me for sure.

I hesitated putting my shame attack sessions here because they are not really very shameful at all, (although in my mind they are.)

For example, I was always ashamed of wearing my backpack backwards because I was laughed at for doing it once.

I did that several days in a row. I tried some backwards walking and was able to manage a few steps, but I have to admit I couldn't help but fake like I was looking at something far away behind me while I did it to lessen the weirdness.

I also, randomly picked out clothes and chose the first clothes I picked out. I ended up wearing some really weird stuff, like a purple shirt with gray shorts and orange socks, and did a little singing while walking around, too.

Not a lot, and didn't get any interesting reactions, but anyway it's nice to push myself.


----------



## Diogenes1982

May90 said:


> Interesting thing about shame attacking exercises is that the experiences strongly differ in different environments. I used to live in Russia, and when I did the exercises there, people were really shocked, laughed at me, cursed me, stared awkwardly and so on.
> 
> Now, here, in the US, a couple of days ago I screamed on a huge crossing, "USA! USA! USA!", like a madman - and, instead of usual shocking reactions I'm used to from Russian experience, people smiled at me, waved their hands and so on. It looks like shame attacking exercises here in America are much easier to pull off, so I need to think of something more extreme to challenge myself now.


I'd never thought about that before, but now you mention it, there must be huge differences. It sounds like Russia is an ideal place to do this, providing you don't cross the line in terms of personal safety. Let me know what things you end of doing in the US; I'd be interested to hear.

Here in the UK, the only times I've been verbally abused is when I've dressed up, but each time the "abusers" (we'll call them that, even though they're only making fools of themselves) have been in a moving car/van/bus, giving me no chance of catching them. I think one group of girls was slagging me off from a distance when I had my umbrella up, jacket and gloves on - on a sunny day, but they were as quiet as church mice when I walked past them. As you'd expect, generally the UK people are quite reserved.

Thanks for your post.


----------



## Diogenes1982

mps625 said:


> Hey Diogenes, your stuff is really inspiring. I think you're helping out a lot of people here, me for sure.
> 
> I hesitated putting my shame attack sessions here because they are not really very shameful at all, (although in my mind they are.)
> 
> For example, I was always ashamed of wearing my backpack backwards because I was laughed at for doing it once.
> 
> I did that several days in a row. I tried some backwards walking and was able to manage a few steps, but I have to admit I couldn't help but fake like I was looking at something far away behind me while I did it to lessen the weirdness.
> 
> I also, randomly picked out clothes and chose the first clothes I picked out. I ended up wearing some really weird stuff, like a purple shirt with gray shorts and orange socks, and did a little singing while walking around, too.
> 
> Not a lot, and didn't get any interesting reactions, but anyway it's nice to push myself.


You're going great guns, good stuff! What you're doing is shame attacking for sure; it's all relative. I'm glad to hear you're benefiting from giving it a go, there's nothing to lose; other than our shame :wink.

Thanks for posting your experiences, look forward to your next update.


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## bubbletea

you should video record these things, put them on youtube, monetize them, get lots of views and praise from people, and make some money from it while you're at it


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## Diogenes1982

bubbletea said:


> you should video record these things, put them on youtube, monetize them, get lots of views and praise from people, and make some money from it while you're at it


Haha, I can see your point, but I don't have any interest in making money from this, although I haven't ruled out doing a recording as an example of what I get up to. Thanks for your suggestion though.


----------



## SoldieringOn

This is an awesome thread. 

I'm definitely inspired by it, because my self conscious nature is one of my biggest problems. In a lot of these encounters you have truly stepped out of yourself and as a result, most of your negative emotions. In a fashion, you're almost looking around yourself in the manner of a sociologist or even an anthropologist.

I'm a little bit envious of how far along you are with it all.

I've had a lot of experiences where I've put myself in very much a 'look at me' scenario, but it's often tempered with alcohol based on the nature of these events.

I consider myself an open crossdresser/tranny/call it what you will and although I probably only get out and about in that guise a couple of times a year now, it requires a certain level of boldness.

A friend and I went to the barfly in Brighton several years ago and a few guys at the bar were remarking on our presence there ('Yeah. Seriously. Two guys. Dressed as women. Yeah. Serious.') I overheard and went straight up to them. 'Oh my GOD! It's really wrong isn't it?! I can't ****ing believe it.'
They were completely and utterly disarmed. 

More recently in London we were in a late night bar and a guy started chanting 'it's a bloke, it's a bloke.' Notably when I was away from my crowd of friends at the bar (safety in numbers).
I could only mutter 'well observed', but it wasn't some thing that hurt per se.

The other thing that draws stares and comments are the yearly zombie pub crawls I go on. A couple of years ago, I stayed on after a lot of friends had gone home, in order to have another drink with a (normally dressed friend.)

It was only on the late tube home that I floated out of my booze haze enough to ponder what I really looked like, vintage gentleman's clothes, zombie contacts lenses, blood all over my face, pale skin, dark eyes, bits of hanging 'skin.'

Some lads got on and grilled me with questions for the ten minute tube ride. 
I tried to convey how awesome being out on such a pub crawl was but realised I looked mental. Part of me wishes that when they said 'is it for charity?' I'd answered yes. :| But that would have been a liiiiie.
Anyway, a lot of them dropped it when I said 'only drawback is horrible ****ers like you on the tube....' Most of them then said they were only joking, but one guy kept teasing. Luckily my stop came up. I think I said something completely ridiculous like 'your Mum called, she wants her egg back' before getting off the tube and scarpering to my girlfriends house where my friends were.

And yet, rather than be dissuaded I still want to stand out, hard when there's so much amazing effort on show (at both crossdressing AND zombie events...)
To this end, my hair colour got more flame coloured and the outfits tighter with the former and the zombie make-up got better with the latter. 

Last year I was a zombie Spiderman and it prompted a lot of attention, photos and comments. Of course the hardest part of all of this was setting off from South London almost completely sober. My initial travel companion's outfit wasn't up to much either, so I stuck out like a real oddity on the high st and train platform. Once in town the attention increased, (luckily after a pub stop  ) Japanese tourists loved it in particular. Between pubs, it became harder and harder to keep up with 'the Horde' as people wanted pics. A few parents would also bring over excitable children to see Spidey, before noticing my gory undead face and then half changing their mind.

This side of my personality is completely at odds with the SA that blights my bad days. It's like one extreme to the other. Sometimes I tremble or twitch just getting served in Tescos. :no


----------



## Diogenes1982

SoldieringOn said:


> This is an awesome thread.
> 
> I'm definitely inspired by it, because my self conscious nature is one of my biggest problems. In a lot of these encounters you have truly stepped out of yourself and as a result, most of your negative emotions. In a fashion, you're almost looking around yourself in the manner of a sociologist or even an anthropologist.
> 
> I'm a little bit envious of how far along you are with it all.
> 
> I've had a lot of experiences where I've put myself in very much a 'look at me' scenario, but it's often tempered with alcohol based on the nature of these events.
> 
> I consider myself an open crossdresser/tranny/call it what you will and although I probably only get out and about in that guise a couple of times a year now, it requires a certain level of boldness.
> 
> A friend and I went to the barfly in Brighton several years ago and a few guys at the bar were remarking on our presence there ('Yeah. Seriously. Two guys. Dressed as women. Yeah. Serious.') I overheard and went straight up to them. 'Oh my GOD! It's really wrong isn't it?! I can't ****ing believe it.'
> They were completely and utterly disarmed.
> 
> More recently in London we were in a late night bar and a guy started chanting 'it's a bloke, it's a bloke.' Notably when I was away from my crowd of friends at the bar (safety in numbers).
> I could only mutter 'well observed', but it wasn't some thing that hurt per se.
> 
> The other thing that draws stares and comments are the yearly zombie pub crawls I go on. A couple of years ago, I stayed on after a lot of friends had gone home, in order to have another drink with a (normally dressed friend.)
> 
> It was only on the late tube home that I floated out of my booze haze enough to ponder what I really looked like, vintage gentleman's clothes, zombie contacts lenses, blood all over my face, pale skin, dark eyes, bits of hanging 'skin.'
> 
> Some lads got on and grilled me with questions for the ten minute tube ride.
> I tried to convey how awesome being out on such a pub crawl was but realised I looked mental. Part of me wishes that when they said 'is it for charity?' I'd answered yes. :| But that would have been a liiiiie.
> Anyway, a lot of them dropped it when I said 'only drawback is horrible ****ers like you on the tube....' Most of them then said they were only joking, but one guy kept teasing. Luckily my stop came up. I think I said something completely ridiculous like 'your Mum called, she wants her egg back' before getting off the tube and scarpering to my girlfriends house where my friends were.
> 
> And yet, rather than be dissuaded I still want to stand out, hard when there's so much amazing effort on show (at both crossdressing AND zombie events...)
> To this end, my hair colour got more flame coloured and the outfits tighter with the former and the zombie make-up got better with the latter.
> 
> Last year I was a zombie Spiderman and it prompted a lot of attention, photos and comments. Of course the hardest part of all of this was setting off from South London almost completely sober. My initial travel companion's outfit wasn't up to much either, so I stuck out like a real oddity on the high st and train platform. Once in town the attention increased, (luckily after a pub stop  ) Japanese tourists loved it in particular. Between pubs, it became harder and harder to keep up with 'the Horde' as people wanted pics. A few parents would also bring over excitable children to see Spidey, before noticing my gory undead face and then half changing their mind.
> 
> This side of my personality is completely at odds with the SA that blights my bad days. It's like one extreme to the other. Sometimes I tremble or twitch just getting served in Tescos. :no


Being very self-conscious myself, like you, I was getting annoyed at feeling the same old feelings of anxiety at everyday things, so I thought I'd try something a bit different than the usual self-help type books. I read a fair bit of philosophy, so I do take an objective view about my behaviour, which is what we have to do if we're going to change anything.

Your stories are interesting, but without wishing to cause you any offence, your post is a bit too long for me to reply to each point, although maybe you weren't looking for that. Sometimes it's just nice to put stuff out there, so feel free.

I've no idea about this conflict you have - I'm far from a psychologist, or in fact anyone who knows anything. But what I would say; is that some men from the past who knew a thing or two about the human condition, have stated there are no contradictions in nature, so maybe look to nature as your guide. Introverted and extroverted can't co-exist simultaneously in the same person according to nature. Perhaps you need to address the root of this conflict? But remember, I don't know anything!

Thanks for you post, and good luck.


----------



## Diogenes1982

So, today I feel like a I did a week or 2 ago; a bit bored with what I'm doing. This means I need to come up with new challenges and exercises to get out of my comfort zone again. I'll be thinking over the weekend how to go about this.

Anyway, on with today's brief update:

I spent about an hour and a half today doing some Socratic questioning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning) on faulty present and past beliefs which could be contributing to my social anxiety. In a nutshell, I was trying to disprove some erroneous assumptions I had/have, by entering into a written dialogue with myself. It sounds fancy, but it's a very simple exercise.

- Into M&S, went to the counter where a girl was serving a customer, butted in politely, and asked where the women's lingerie section is. Not embarrassed at all, would've been prior. Walked upstairs saying, "I'm in the women's lingerie department."

- Had a couple normal chats in M&S, some minor flirting.

- Went in an opticians, said my vision is blurry after drinking alcohol and when a fly flies into my eye. Did I need a test? She said probably not, I responded I thought the fly's wing was still in my eye causing the blurred vision, would come back if it continues, left. Nice woman.

- Saw a guy in the street who resembled Van Persie, told him so, he said he gets it all the time! Funny bloke.

- Walked into the supermarket singing White Christmas, as confident as I've felt doing this. Some double takes.

- Asked out a girl in the book section, she had a boyfriend. Do I believe her, probably, as we were having a decent normalish chat before I asked for her number. Carried on talking after rejection, no embarrassment.

- Picked up a pastry tin thing and loudly said, "roll up, roll up, croissant butter pastry 99p off, yours for £1.50!". Did this a couple other times with other items. People looked up, some ignored, some smiled, some said no thanks.

- Asked a few busyish (3/4+ people) aisles for their thoughts and recommendations on certain products. The most memorable being a small pot of butterscotch trifle. Again, mixed reactions as you'd imagine.

Today I felt the most confident I've felt speaking loudly in front of people, might be due to a combination of exposure and the Socratic questioning I was doing before the exercise.

Peace.


----------



## SoldieringOn

Diogenes1982 said:


> Being very self-conscious myself, like you, I was getting annoyed at feeling the same old feelings of anxiety at everyday things, so I thought I'd try something a bit different than the usual self-help type books. I read a fair bit of philosophy, so I do take an objective view about my behaviour, which is what we have to do if we're going to change anything.
> 
> Your stories are interesting, but without wishing to cause you any offence, your post is a bit too long for me to reply to each point, although maybe you weren't looking for that. Sometimes it's just nice to put stuff out there, so feel free.
> 
> I've no idea about this conflict you have - I'm far from a psychologist, or in fact anyone who knows anything. But what I would say; is that some men from the past who knew a thing or two about the human condition, have stated there are no contradictions in nature, so maybe look to nature as your guide. Introverted and extroverted can't co-exist simultaneously in the same person according to nature. Perhaps you need to address the root of this conflict? But remember, I don't know anything!
> 
> Thanks for you post, and good luck.


That's okay, I didn't expect a detailed response per se. Just felt sparked into remembering those situations where I put myself in a position to be looked at.
I'd argue that extrovert and introvert are little more than labels we give to a behaviour type and what's really at play with me, you and a hundred others on this forum, is more complicated, more in the grey.

My take on why I do it? Combats the low self esteem, possibly in an addictive and slightly sledge hammer like way. If nothing else, these are extreme highs for me, especially when surrounded by like minded people - 'normal' life then feels harder and more grinding a couple of days later.

One of my greatest fears is having a freakout/mental breakdown somewhere there's lots of people. In a way I'm scared of what society thinks and when the nervous energy rises, it's harder to stay calm and persuade myself I'm not about to scream on the bus or similar.

I thought about your posts on the way home today and the public responses you've had. I realised my 'worst case' scenario is pretty unrealistic and I thought about how it might all just be hilarious. I laughed aloud and the panic sensation cleared slightly.

There's definitely something in your approach to this, but I'm not sure I could apply the practice myself, at least not in the near future.

The fearlessness you're starting to hit, you could practically be making guerilla comedy shows.


----------



## SoldieringOn

On pondering this a bit more... the root of it is fairly traceable. A father who would play up and always had to crack jokes and make his presence known and a mother who was more reserved and a little more cautious about life. Absorbed a few of both personalties to make for a slightly at war character. I 'work' for the most part.

One thing I don't do (and you good sir neither) is wallow.
'I can't' is overused on here.

Your thread is a glorious case of 'can and will.'


----------



## Diogenes1982

SoldieringOn said:


> That's okay, I didn't expect a detailed response per se. Just felt sparked into remembering those situations where I put myself in a position to be looked at.
> I'd argue that extrovert and introvert are little more than labels we give to a behaviour type and what's really at play with me, you and a hundred others on this forum, is more complicated, more in the grey.
> 
> My take on why I do it? Combats the low self esteem, possibly in an addictive and slightly sledge hammer like way. If nothing else, these are extreme highs for me, especially when surrounded by like minded people - 'normal' life then feels harder and more grinding a couple of days later.
> 
> One of my greatest fears is having a freakout/mental breakdown somewhere there's lots of people. In a way I'm scared of what society thinks and when the nervous energy rises, it's harder to stay calm and persuade myself I'm not about to scream on the bus or similar.
> 
> I thought about your posts on the way home today and the public responses you've had. I realised my 'worst case' scenario is pretty unrealistic and I thought about how it might all just be hilarious. I laughed aloud and the panic sensation cleared slightly.
> 
> There's definitely something in your approach to this, but I'm not sure I could apply the practice myself, at least not in the near future.
> 
> The fearlessness you're starting to hit, you could practically be making guerilla comedy shows.





SoldieringOn said:


> On pondering this a bit more... the root of it is fairly traceable. A father who would play up and always had to crack jokes and make his presence known and a mother who was more reserved and a little more cautious about life. Absorbed a few of both personalties to make for a slightly at war character. I 'work' for the most part.
> 
> One thing I don't do (and you good sir neither) is wallow.
> 'I can't' is overused on here.
> 
> Your thread is a glorious case of 'can and will.'


Thanks for your posts and comments.

You're probably right, introverted and extroverted could just be a lazy way of boxing people's character traits. Recently, I touched upon this with another member on this forum; whether there's even such a thing as an introvert or an extrovert. If you accept the premise that there's a pinnacle for human beings to reach in terms of character (honesty, courage, patience, kindness, self-restraint, etc), then anything less, whether it be an "introverted" character, an "extroverted" character, or something in between, is just a product of faulty beliefs. Just a thought I had - unsure of it's validity.

Maybe there's a road-map to attain the ideal, or to get as close as we can...the stoics believed so.

Like myself, it sounds like you put way too much importance in what others think of you; your self-esteem is tied up in opinion, and how fickle is opinion!?

We agree there's no point wallowing, as we're on this earth for a very short time, and there's much to do before we leave it again. Just because humans can live to 90 or 100 years, it doesn't mean individually we will - maybe our time is today!? My great fear is to leave early without having fulfilled my potential, but if I've achieved my potential as a human being, then there's no time too early.


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## SoldieringOn

Diogenes1982 said:


> My great fear is to leave early without having fulfilled my potential, but if I've achieved my potential as a human being, then there's no time too early.


Very much on the same page with everything you've said... but none more so than this!

:yes


----------



## CaffeineAddict

Diogenes, you are my hero!

I love this thread. Thanks for continuously updating it with your experiences.

I feel empowered through your words from reading your experiences and triumphs through this, albeit I know that, that truly means nothing -- for myself -- until I step out of my comfort zone.

Do you think it's absolutely imperative for people to step out of their comfort zones to grow? I know that's a rhetorical question, but I just want to hear your direct thoughts on the topic. I'm stepping out of my comfort zone soon. Long story. Just wanted to hear your thoughts and maybe a word or three of advice!


----------



## jimity

NomadicWonder said:


> It's whenever I'm not expecting it and whenever I'm not doing strange things that their ridicule or demeaning attitude shows up. I suppose it's linked with confidence. Whenever I'm trying to get ridicule by doing strange things, I'm confident because I want it to happen, and I'm expecting it. I think most people can sense this confidence and because of it they don't do anything. I think the ridicule only comes if people sense that you DO care about what they think. When you blatantly don't give a **** they kind of back off, and may even admire you no matter what you're doing.


This is what I was trying to get at in my past post in this thread and why I think shame attacking won't work in fixing sa.

Even when not playing a character and just being real, when out shame attacking we are in "shame attack mode", or in other words we have prepared ourselves mentally and have a goal in mind (being ridiculed, told off, rejected ect + fixing our sa). But once we are no longer in that mode we just start caring what people think again and we feel vulnerable to people's evaluations of us.

For example, if I were to shame attack by wearing my underwear outside my pants like superman and walk to the shop I would feel self conscious and embarrassed but I have the goal in my mind to get reactions from people and I am doing this to help my sa. But if I were at home just wearing my underwear outside my pants just for the hell of it and somebody peeked through the window to see if I was home and caught me I'd feel a lot worse simply because I wasn't after any sort of evaluation and because the reason for me doing that is just out of being weird. Like what would you think if the OP cured his sa from shame attacking (I don't believe it would be possibly) but continued to do the sort of things he does while shame attacking just because he wants to be different?

Also I agree that if people think less of you and see that you feel ashamed and embarrassed because they think less of you then they will ridicule you even more, whereas if they see you don't gaf what they think then they don't react as much.

Also I guess after so much ridicule and rejection we might become desensitized to it and no longer care.


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## jimity

CaffeineAddict said:


> Diogenes, you are my hero!
> 
> Do you think it's absolutely imperative for people to step out of their comfort zones to grow?


:yes


----------



## jimity

Here are 101 ideas for pushing you out of your comfort zone:

1. Talk to the prettiest women you see and ask her out.
2. Fart when other people are around so they hear or smell it.
3. Take a portable stereo with you and play your favorite music in a store and start dancing to it.
4. Instead of walking backward, skip around or hop or crawl.
5. Sing heavy/black metal music instead of christmas carols.
6. Walk up to a group of people and ask them if you can be friends with them.
7. Host a party and invite random people to it.
8. Try to scare people by going up behind them and say "boo!".
9. Dress up as a diver and walk around in public.
10. Dress up in women's makeup/clothes and go in public.
11. Try to pay for something in monopoly money.
12. Drive backwards.
13. Drive around tooting your horn.
14. Buy a truck horn for your car and get some attention with it.
15. Play children's songs on your car radio up loud with the window down when at the traffic lights or when people are around.
16. Wave and say hi to random people or cars going past on the road or when they are at a red light.
17. Hitchhike.
18. Wear your left shoe on your right foot and right show on your left foot and go out in public.
19. Dress up as a superhero and go out somewhere.
20. Talk really loud on your mobile phone in public.
21. Talk incoherently out loud in public to make it look like you are a crazy person.
22. Take back a product and complain about it and have a whinge about how rubbish it is.
23. Dribble when talking to someone
24. Walk around public in bathers.
25. Do miming in public.
26. Pretend cough and sneeze as annoying as possible in public.
27. Smoke three or four cigs at a time with others around.
28. Do the moonwalk then grab your c*** and go oww in public.
29. Do something non-weird that makes you anxious. Say for example, take up dancing/singing/acting classes or join a club where you have to interact with people.
30. Announce in public that you are the reincarnation of someone well known such as Jesus or Hitler or say you are the devil incarnate.
31. Read a porn magazine in public.
32. Buy a porn mag and flip through it at the counter or ask people what they think about her in the photos.
32. Buy condoms and chat with the cashier and tell her details about your plans that night or ask what her plans are for tonight hinting that you want her to come home with you.
33. Ask the cashier if they have any condoms in microsize or perhaps elephant size.
34. Stain your clothes with red wine or spill food on them or spray paint on them and go in public.
35. Buy fart gas and use it on yourself or carry a rotten egg with you in public.
36. Ride a bike/skateboard/roller blades in a store.
37. Tell a really hot woman that she isn't that good looking.
38. Cough or sneeze on someone.
39. Make a real loud fart sound in public.
40. Confess your social anxiety to people. Tell them you get nervous and self concious talking to them.
41. Do handstands in a store.
42. Walk in a store and up to a product with other people around and start saying this thing is crap and stuff.
43. Grease someone off or give them the death stare.
44. Whistle at a good looking woman and wink and smile at her.
45. When paying for something, instead of placing the coins in the cashier's hand, flip the coins in the air to them.
46. When you are handed change count it and say you gave me the wrong change even if it was right. Then count it again in front of them and say it is wrong. Make it look to them you can't count and are blaming them for giving you the wrong change.
47. Get a crazy looking haircut or wear some crazy looking wig.
48. Wear crazy looking clothes like and oversized pink cowboy hat.
49. Get fake tattoos all on your back and chest and walk around showing them off.
50. Go to the woman's clothes section and take some bras and underwear and ask someone who works there where the change room is.
51. Get down on your knees and pray outloud in public.
52. Ask out 10 women in one day.
53. Ask someone if they would like to be your friend.
54. Tell people you don't have a social life and have no friends and are still a virgin (I'm not sure how you are in your personal life but just see how they react to this).
55. Invite a stranger or group of strangers to the pub.
56. Go up to someone and pretend that you know them from somewhere and ask them how they are going and make conversation with them.
57. Have a conversation with yourself outloud in public.
58. Say something controversial to people like you think religion should be outlawed or ask people something controversial like what race should hitler have targeted instead of the jews?
59. Tell someone an outrageous story like how you met the president of the usa or are a famous person who played in this or that movie. Just make stuff up you know.
60. Ask random people if they have spare change.
61. Wear your underwear on the outside and go in public.
62. Ask random women if they would they consider sleeping with you.
63. Walk around with an invisible dog leash and invisible dog.
64. Pretend to slip or fall over in public.
65. Wear only one shoe when going out.
66. Talk real loud to someone when talking to them.
67. Talk real slow when talking to someone.
68. Put water on your pants to make it look like you wet your pants.
69. Set up some bottle/tube connection that can squirt water out and carry it on you so nobody can see and use it to make others think you wet your pants.
70. When buying something walk over to the cashier with the product balanced on your head.
71. Pretend you can't hear very well and ask someone to speak up a few times or act sorta stupid and tell them you can't seem to understand what they are saying. Do this until they become annoyed/exasperated.
72. Go up to someone and do a magic trick. Like say you will make a coin disappear but then you can't do it and are still working on it.
73. Interview random people. Make up questions. Carry a clipboard and some paper and a pen with you to make it look legit.
74. Go up to a hot looking woman and talk to her and then when you have to leave touch her on her arm near her shoulder while saying it was nice talking to you and say goodbye. Try to end the conversation with something funny before you leave so you both are laughing and it seems appropriate to touch her like that while you make it seem like you need to quickly be somewhere else. This will make the touching come off as just friendly and casual and non-creepy.
75. Go up to someone and ask them if you can look at their watch/phone.
76. When someone is talking to you act real timid and shy and scared to talk. Break eye contact, stare at the ground, make your voice shake, stammer, say um often, pretend your mind goes blank. 
77. Do star jumps/pushups in a store with other people around.
78. Anounce out loud in a store "my name is <insert name>..." or announce out loud the current time or the current date.
79. Swear outloud in a public place. Like pick up a product with other people around and swear and cuss it out.
80. Pretend to forget your name when you are asked for it by someone. Then say you will need to call your mother/father to find out your name.
81. Wear two different shoes in public.
82. Ask people if they know if any cool parties are on and if you can tag along.
83. Ask random women if they would be willing to star in a porno with you.
84. Talk to products such as groceries when other people are around. Ask a loaf of bread "how are you today?" for example.
85. Pick up a basketball or football from a store and start bouncing it and make it go all over the place. Accidently make it hit other people.
86. Ask a pharmacist if they have anything for sexual stamina and explain to them your situation. Make it up.
87. Go to the doctor and ask if there is any exercises or medications to make your penis grow bigger or some medication for premature ejaculation. Explain your situation. Make it up.
88. Go around knocking on people's door saying you are looking for someone. Make up a name.
89. Spin around in public.
90. Buy children's toys and explain to the cashier that those are for you.
91. Cut your hair to make yourself look ridiculous. Such as make parts too short and uneven.
92. Dye your hair all sorts of colors.
93. Go to the beach in a suit or winter clothes and swim in the water.
94. On a hot day, walk past people and comment on how cold it is. Rub your hands and breathe in them to make it look like you are cold.
95. Ask for the location of items backward such as where's the "bix weet" or "flakes corn" or "kat kit".
96. Ask a butcher if they sell pig's c**ks or cow t**s.
97. When talking to someone fake an accent. Pretend you are scottish or jamaican.
98. When buying groceries, before paying for them, open something up and start eating it even when walking up to the cashier.
99. Wear a scary mask out in public and even roar at people.
100. Go to the pools and annoy people by invading their space or do bombs and splash about like crazy and splash people.
101. Go to the pools or beach and while swimming make it look like your underpants or bathers came off accidently and then walk around asking people if they have seen them anywhere. Public nudity. The ultimate shame attack.


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## TheWelshOne

jimity said:


> Here are 101 ideas for pushing you out of your comfort zone:


These are amazing  And I've already got one down to perfection! Number 76 -



> 76. When someone is talking to you act real timid and shy and scared to talk. Break eye contact, stare at the ground, make your voice shake, stammer, say um often, pretend your mind goes blank.


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## simon234

:clapA this thread. Needs to be a sticky.

My issue's are with a stutter which was worse when younger which then brought on SA through my avoidance. Ironicly the stutter went away 95% anyway and I am left with SA.

So now I need to exaggreate a stutter in public. While changing my attitudes, beliefs and thinking.


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## Diogenes1982

CaffeineAddict said:


> Diogenes, you are my hero!
> 
> I love this thread. Thanks for continuously updating it with your experiences.
> 
> I feel empowered through your words from reading your experiences and triumphs through this, albeit I know that, that truly means nothing -- for myself -- until I step out of my comfort zone.
> 
> Do you think it's absolutely imperative for people to step out of their comfort zone to grow? I know that's a rhetorical question, but I just want to hear your direct thoughts on the topic. I'm stepping out of my comfort zone soon. Long story. Just wanted to hear your thoughts and maybe a word or three of advice!


Haha, you need better role models then!

If you ask me, yes we need to step out of our comfort zones in anything to progress. Whenever we start feeling comfortable or even bored, i.e - not taking new risks, is when we should up things in whatever we're doing. But then, you knew the answer anyway.

Thanks for your comments, good luck.


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## Diogenes1982

jimity said:


> This is what I was trying to get at in my past post in this thread and why I think shame attacking won't work in fixing sa.
> 
> Even when not playing a character and just being real, when out shame attacking we are in "shame attack mode", or in other words we have prepared ourselves mentally and have a goal in mind (being ridiculed, told off, rejected ect + fixing our sa). But once we are no longer in that mode we just start caring what people think again and we feel vulnerable to people's evaluations of us.
> 
> For example, if I were to shame attack by wearing my underwear outside my pants like superman and walk to the shop I would feel self conscious and embarrassed but I have the goal in my mind to get reactions from people and I am doing this to help my sa. But if I were at home just wearing my underwear outside my pants just for the hell of it and somebody peeked through the window to see if I was home and caught me I'd feel a lot worse simply because I wasn't after any sort of evaluation and because the reason for me doing that is just out of being weird. Like what would you think if the OP cured his sa from shame attacking (I don't believe it would be possibly) but continued to do the sort of things he does while shame attacking just because he wants to be different?
> 
> Also I agree that if people think less of you and see that you feel ashamed and embarrassed because they think less of you then they will ridicule you even more, whereas if they see you don't gaf what they think then they don't react as much.
> 
> Also I guess after so much ridicule and rejection we might become desensitized to it and no longer care.





jimity said:


> Here are 101 ideas for pushing you out of your comfort zone:
> 
> 1. Talk to the prettiest women you see and ask her out.
> 2. Fart when other people are around so they hear or smell it.
> 3. Take a portable stereo with you and play your favorite music in a store and start dancing to it.
> 4. Instead of walking backward, skip around or hop or crawl.
> 5. Sing heavy/black metal music instead of christmas carols.
> 6. Walk up to a group of people and ask them if you can be friends with them.
> 7. Host a party and invite random people to it.
> 8. Try to scare people by going up behind them and say "boo!".
> 9. Dress up as a diver and walk around in public.
> 10. Dress up in women's makeup/clothes and go in public.


For someone who doesn't believe in the usefulness of shame attacking, you sure do have a lot of situational suggestions. Anyway, thanks for your posts, I might pick a few of those out which could be of benefit. I'm imagining with such a strong stance on the subject, you've had direct personal experience of trying this, and it didn't work out for you personally? If not, you're making some huge assumptions.

I'm not here to defend shame attacking, as it might not be for everyone, and I also think it's efficacy is largely dependent on the cognitive work you do prior/during/after on why it's irrelevant what people think about you. You also need to dedicate yourself to it, like a training schedule, not a few days here and there, it needs to be done regularly.

All I can say is what I've found from my own personal experience; when not on a shame attacking exercise and in regular life, I'm much less self-conscious, I'm regularly in the flow of the present - as opposed to my own thoughts and judgements, I talk openly to people without any regard for who's listening (this is something I'd be hugely conscious of before), and I engage people in conversation frequently without realising. In fact, with regard to this last point, my brother-in-law positively commented a couple of weeks ago on how talkative I was being with people, but I wasn't purposefully acting any different, I was just enjoying myself.

It seems to me, that people are still stuck on how they're going to be thought of less, if people see them shame attacking, but this is the whole point: it doesn't matter a rat's arse what people think of you (especially if you're trying to become a better person). Well, unless they're Socrates, Marcus Aurelius or someone like that. In any case, they'd suspend judgement until they knew the facts. But, until we stop operating from this paradigm of opinion, we're doomed to live in a self-perpetuating cycle of stifled, self-conscious and sabotaging actions. I think we'd all agree we're capable of a more fulfilling existence.


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## Diogenes1982

simon234 said:


> :clapA this thread. Needs to be a sticky.
> 
> My issue's are with a stutter which was worse when younger which then brought on SA through my avoidance. Ironicly the stutter went away 95% anyway and I am left with SA.
> 
> So now I need to exaggreate a stutter in public. While changing my attitudes, beliefs and thinking.


Welcome aboard.


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## simon234

Diogenes1982 said:


> Welcome aboard.


Thanks.

Can you give more detail on the cognitive work you do prior/during/after the shame attacking or the process you go through. I know you use socratic questioning prior. What about during and after. Is it a case of focusing on the negative thoughts during then after changing these into more rational thoughts.


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## Diogenes1982

Yesterday I had to buy a few ciders for the fridge, so I combined my supermarket visit with some shame shame attacking and general public chit chat.

- Picked out a birthday card intended for a young girl, asked a woman if she thought my dad would like it, she laughed, but I was serious.

- Chatted to a guy and his wife about various things, oblivious to who was listening, followed them around the supermarket for a while. Friendly folk.

- Loudly asked for alcohol recommendations in a very busy aisle (8/9 people), and continued the chat with an Arsenal fan who suggested Thatchers, which I ended up buying. Talked to him and his wife about booze and the pitfalls of supermarket pricing for a good few minutes, again oblivious to how many people were there and could hear. Cool couple.

- Approached the queue waiting for pizzas to be assembled, said something but I can't remember what! Ended up chatting to a bloke asking what he was buying, what he was having with it, and general stuff like that. Genuine guy.

- Went and asked for advice on buying children felt-tip pens from a very attractive girl working there, very sweet too. I said I liked to do some colouring-in after a few ciders, and I was doing a Thomas the Tank Engine book at the moment. This carried on for a few minutes, which culminated in me asking her out for a cup of tea, but she said she had a bf. I questioned if he liked colouring-in too, she said "not usually". I think she felt sorry for me.

- Started speaking to a guy and recommending him different things to have with diffferent foodstuffs. He wanted to lose me ASAP but I kept following him chatting away. While carrying my Thatchers cans under my arm, I said I shouldn't drink with my medication as it makes me go a bit nuts, but 3 will be ok, just not 4. By this point, he was really trying to lose me, so I asked him if he wanted some help with his shopping, unbelievably he declined.

Brief but relatively beneficial.


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## Diogenes1982

simon234 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Can you give more detail on the cognitive work you do prior/during/after the shame attacking or the process you go through. I know you use socratic questioning prior. What about during and after. Is it a case of focusing on the negative thoughts during then after changing these into more rational thoughts.


The cognitive side of things relates to correctly rationalising my thoughts according to the philosophical beliefs I have and am trying to instill. However, I'm loath to talk about that too much on this thread as I'm not looking for a debate on philosophy. I'll PM you.


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## simon234

Diogenes1982 said:


> The cognitive side of things relates to correctly rationalising my thoughts according to the philosophical beliefs I have and am trying to instill. However, I'm loath to talk about that too much on this thread as I'm not looking for a debate on philosophy. I'll PM you.


Please do, no rush.

Thanks.


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## TheWelshOne

Question: Since I'm far more scared of being disapproved of/rejected by people who I'm close to, do you think there are any exercises for that? Or might it just be that when I start to fear the general public less, my overall fear of disapproval/rejection will lessen too?


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## Diogenes1982

TheWelshOne said:


> Question: Since I'm far more scared of being disapproved of/rejected by people who I'm close to, do you think there are any exercises for that? Or might it just be that when I start to fear the general public less, my overall fear of disapproval/rejection will lessen too?


Well I don't want to give the impression that I'm the go-to authority on shame attacking, because I'm definitely not, but I've noticed targeting certain fears I have during these exercises seems to work for me.

I'd say you're closer than not with your assessment, in that addressing the rejection/disapproval from the public is a good first step. Anything that toughens up the spirit is good, providing you rationalise the rejection as you go along. Getting used to rejection is something I've done by asking out these girls, and by the way, if any of them accepted I would go out with them. I don't agree with just practicing on people you have no intentions of following through with.

I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something...how about just asking strangers if you can borrow 50p?

Thanks for you post.


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## jimity

> For someone who doesn't believe in the usefulness of shame attacking, you sure do have a lot of situational suggestions.


I enjoyed thinking of those things for people who are interested in tackling their sa with shame attacking.

I actually think shame attacking can help with specific things like eating in public or talking on the phone around others or whatever thing one is afraid of. But I think the way to shame attack is to do the thing you fear rather than do all sorts of other things that you normally wouldn't do.



> I'm imagining with such a strong stance on the subject, you've had direct personal experience of trying this, and it didn't work out for you personally? If not, you're making some huge assumptions.
> 
> I also think it's efficacy is largely dependent on the cognitive work you do prior/during/after on why it's irrelevant what people think about you. You also need to dedicate yourself to it, like a training schedule, not a few days here and there, it needs to be done regularly.


For me I personally failed building conversational ability. Things just lead to pauses and awkwardness. I'd walk away not caring what they thought but even not caring what the other person thinks doesn't help with the conversational skills. I just sit there more comfortable. And more comfortable being awkward.

I agree that cognitive work needs to be combined with it because after all shame attacking is a behavioral experiment to test out old beliefs and assumptions and rules. Without it doing embarrassing things is much like pure exposure: hit and miss. And it takes a lot of repetition to break old mental habits. So doing it regularly is what it takes.

It's another weapon in the fight against sa.


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## Diogenes1982

jimity said:


> I enjoyed thinking of those things for people who are interested in tackling their sa with shame attacking.
> 
> I actually think shame attacking can help with specific things like eating in public or talking on the phone around others or whatever thing one is afraid of. But I think the way to shame attack is to do the thing you fear rather than do all sorts of other things that you normally wouldn't do.
> 
> For me I personally failed building conversational ability. Things just lead to pauses and awkwardness. I'd walk away not caring what they thought but even not caring what the other person thinks doesn't help with the conversational skills. I just sit there more comfortable. And more comfortable being awkward.
> 
> I agree that cognitive work needs to be combined with it because after all shame attacking is a behavioral experiment to test out old beliefs and assumptions and rules. Without it doing embarrassing things is much like pure exposure: hit and miss. And it takes a lot of repetition to break old mental habits. So doing it regularly is what it takes.
> 
> It's another weapon in the fight against sa.


You've got a great imagination! I agree, targeting certain fears will probably lead to greater benefit than just doing "weird" stuff out and about. But, just walking about in odd clothes was a good start for me, because it took the edge off my anxiety enough to approach people and delve deeper into my issues with talking to strangers/groups of people/rejection etc.

I wish you well in trying to improve your conversational abilities, however personally, I don't think it's of any importance if you're unable to do general chit chat, so long as you can converse your opinions and ideas about things that matter when it matters.

Yes, old habits die hard....probably most of us here have been dealing with SA issues for 10+ years (19/20 in my case), so to expect one thing to cure our mental ills isn't realistic.

All the best.


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## Diogenes1982

*Yesterday's update*

Drove into town late afternoon:

- Saw a man reading "The Independent" newspaper on a bench, walked over to him and asked his opinion on the Malaysian plane incident in Ukraine. This turned into a very interesting 10 min chat about various related topics.

- Into M&S, sang White Christmas to a girl working there unloading items, she asked me if I'd been drinking, to which I replied the negative. I then asked for her phone number, she said it's not allowed - yeah yeah. What girl wouldn't want to go out with a guy who sings Christmas songs to strangers in the height of the summer??

- Sat down on a bench next to a girl, drank my milkshake. Started talking to her about random stuff, I turned the conversation a bit weird, and by the end I was telling her I couldn't work anymore, I was on meds and was instructed by my GP to get out once a week to talk to people. She was very kind.

- Went into the betting shop, talked to a guy who had a bet on a horse. Asked him if I could split his winnings if he won, I said we'd go for drinks if the horse came in. Kept cheering for the horse out loud even before the race had started. The horse came in 5th, he lost and looked peeved, I offered him 5p - he declined, I used my judgement and left him alone.

- Walked to another betting shop, asked for the odds for Phil Taylor winning the whole tournament; 10/3 on. I said I'll put on 5p for him to win. The guy said he wouldn't accept that bet laughing, I said, "ok, 20p?", he accepted this one. Wrote out the betting slip in ridiculous hand writing and put on my bet.

- Walked to Tesco, saw a guy with a bit of paper in his car window offering his car for sale for £2,000. I had some chat with him, said I was interested, "will you accept £100?". Amazingly, he seemed to actually consider this offer! He wanted to take my number, but I said I'd check out the number plate and call him back. Was he just humouring me, who knows!?

- In tesco, told a guy working there about my bet, showed him my betting slip, he laughed. He asked how much I'd win, I told him about 26p including my original stake. I offered to take him out for drinks if I won.


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## CaffeineAddict

I wonder how shame attacking would work out where I live: a small, rural town in America where everybody practically knows each other. So daunting. :\


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## jimity

Another 101 ideas

1. Do something OCD with others around like touch every second item in a store.
2. Burp real loud in public. Then say out loud "EXCUSE ME!"
3. Make animals sounds in public.
4. Order a lot of food at small food shop like a bakery. Perhaps 20 items. Say something like "I want a pie.. uum... a sausage roll... uum a piece of cake... uum.. a jam tart... uum.. a lemon tart... and so on. Might cost a bit.
5. Ask for half of something such as half a cup of coffee or half a Big Mac.
6. Dine out and say you want a table for two because you have a date but then leave after eating to make it look like you got stood up.
7. Bump and knock into people "accidently".
8. Ask someone if you can use their phone.
9. Laugh loudly in public pretending something is funny on your phone.
10. Go to the pools or beach and call out for help pretending you can't swim.
11. Go to a fast food place and eat your food real fast and make loud eating noises so that other people can hear you.
12. Walk and move like a robot.
13. Go to a club/bar/pub alone. Go there weekly for a few months.
14. Go to a club and dance stupidly.
15. Approach every woman in a bar that isn't with a guy and strike up a conversation.
16. Take unflattering photos of yourself and show people them.
17. Do and say stupid things that make you feel embarrassed and display your embarrassment to others rather than look like you don't care.
18. Tell a woman you are gay and ask her if she would be willing to convert you.
19. Buy one small item and use a trolley to carry it.
20. Buy a lot of one item such as a bar of soap or matches and only that item.
21. Film yourself just doing stuff and watch it. Can be difficult to watch yourself on video but great to see how others might see you.
22. Run with a trolley in a store and ride it and say weeeeeeee.
23. Buy flowers for a woman and tell her it's because you think she's beautiful.
24. In a shopping centre pretend you are busting to go to the toilet and run around asking people if they know where the toilet is.
25. Jokingly bribe a police officer if they pull you over.
26. Knock something over like a plate or "accidently" drop items in a store
27. Next time you are talking a good looking woman, grab her p**** and say you where just checking because the last woman you met turned out to be a guy.
28. Pretend you are drunk. Stumble around ect.
29. While talking to someone start making vocal and facial tics.
30. In a grocery store, take a banana and hold it down where you man parts are and hold it upwards and walk to pay for it.
31. Tell a lie and get caught in the lie.
32. Make yourself smell and then when next to a random stranger then tell them you think they smell.
33. Ask your parents why they never taught you about sex.
34. Have sex in a park or where you might get caught.
35. Pretend you are mute and write down what you have to say. For example, when walking up to a cashier and when he/she says hi you write hi and show them it.
36. Play an instrument in public.
37. Go to a furniture store and lay on the bed and take a nap.
38. Go to a library and pretend cough and clear your throat until you annoy people.
39. Fart in an elevator.
40. Cough in an elevator and say "sorry about that.. I just have a contagious lung infection".
41. Walk up to a woman and say "I'm marvin the martian.. what's you're favorite flavor of bowling ball?"
42. Walk up to a person and take out a box of matches or a lighter and ask them how do you use it.
43. Ask a person if they can light your cigarette.
44. Invite a person over for dinner.
45. Make friends with your neighbours.
46. Sit on santa.
47. Annoy a woman and then apologize and say you'll make it up to her by taking her out to dinner.
48. Dress up as someone famous.
49. Grow your nails really long.
50. Paint your face.
51. Get food stuck between your teeth and smile and laugh making sure people can see it.
52. Place something hanging out of your nose to make it look like a booger or even pick a real booger and leave it hanging out then approach a good looking woman.
53. Ride a unicycle around.
54. Go out somewhere with a pogostick.
55. Take up a team sport.
56. Pretend you broke down in the middle of the road and get out and ask for help to push your car to the side.
57. Drive with one leg hanging out the window (if your car is auto)
58. Ask if you can have a tattoo on your man parts.
59. Ask random strangers what their opinion is on something religious/political/cultural.
60. Make conversation with other the driver next to you while waiting at a red light. Tell them to wind down their window and just start chatting with them.
61. Go to a protest.
62. Facebook people you went to school with.
63. At the end of making small talk with random strangers, ask what they thought of how you looked/sounded/how you came across to them. Ask them what they thought of you in general.
64. Ask people who work at a store questions about themselves.
65. Go to the pools and "accidently" fall into the pool.
66. Make people look at you weird or think you are weird by saying strange things to them or making strange comments.
67. Walk backwards across a level crossing where other cars are waiting and wave to them.
68. Buy a scratchie ticket and scratch it in the store and if you win a prize even if it's small, say I WON!! I WON!! I WON!!
69. Go to a fast food place and buy some food and ask a stranger or group of people if you can join them.
70. Ask someone if you can have some of their food.
71. Ask someone if they want some of your food.
72. Ask someone if they know where the closest brothel is.
73. Carry a worm or bug with you and go a fast food place and then place the worm of bug in your food and take it back and show them.
74. Ask a neighbour if you can borrow something of theirs.
75. Invite a neighbour over for a drink or coffee or lunch.
76. If someone insults you while doing shame attacking agree with them and start insulting yourself too.
77. Ask for a pay rise.
78. Carry around a large teddy bear. Hug it and kiss it in public.
79. Go to a sex shop and buy a vibrator or dildo.
80. Ask 100 random strangers for the time.
81. Tell a cashier a joke while waiting.
82. Tell your parents you love them and give them a big hug and a kiss.
83. Invite your boss out to the pub if you get a pay rise.
84. Leave the curtains open at night with all the lights on and walk around naked.
85. When your neighbour is in their backyard climb up on the fence and say hi and make small talk.
86. Ring someone up and say you've got the wrong number.
87. When you see a stranger go up to them and say hey <insert name> making it look like you mistook them for someone else. Then say sorry and walk off.
88. Call out someone's name on the street or in a store where other people can see and hear. Pick out a random stanger and just call out a name to them. If they fail to look, keep calling out that name.
89. Stop on the side of the road next to someone who is walking along and ask if they would like a ride to their destination.
90. Go to a park and play on the equipment when other people are their.
91. Go to a nudist beach. Get used to being nude.
92. Have loud sex so the neighbours can hear.
93. Be a hypocrite. For example tell someone at the store you see buying something (eg a can of redbull) and make a comment that those are rubbish and ask why on earth are they buying it. Then buy the same product.
94. At a store such as a bakery where you buy food over the counter, act like you can't make up your mind in what to buy. Ask their opinion. Comment on how expensive their choice is.
95. Pick your nose in public.
96. Stick a piece of food on your face and walk in public.
97. Ask someone if they can tickle you.
98. Wear a t-shirt with swear words on it or something rude on it in big letters.
99. Go into every single shop in a large shopping complex and talk to at least one worker.
100. Tell someone that their voice annoys you.
101. Annoy someone until they tell you to F%$# OFF!!!! Perhaps interrupt someone on their phone continuously even after they signal for you to shoo off.


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## Diogenes1982

*30 days completed*

More great ideas above.

Yesterday I did the usual shame attacking exploits; walking backwards, asking out girls (one was a community support policewoman), asking busy aisles in supermarkets questions, following people around, telling people it was Monday today, reciting the days of the week to a bloke while following him as he tried to get away, and just general oddness.

By my calculations that's 30 days done - I've gained a lot of benefit from this past month, however now's the time to push on to new things. Certain irrational fears I had; such as joining a sports club, public speaking, etc., don't hold the same kind of fear in my mind as they did formerly. I definitely believe these exercises have helped in reducing my anxiety concerning social situations, however now I need to test out my new beliefs by further pushing myself. I expect I'll still do some shame attacking here and there when I feel like I need a boost, however I plan to now challenge myself in more regular situations. I'll update as I go.....

Thanks for all your contributions to the thread.

I'll leave you with a short anecdote about a certain Diogenes of Sinope:

*When someone said to Diogenes, "Most people laugh at you," his reply was, "And so very likely do the asses laugh at them; but as they don't care for the asses, so neither do I care for them."*


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## Tranceaddict

I have really enjoyed reading about your escapades! It lightens up my view of life in a way. We don't need to be so serious/conforming/cautious all the time (although our anxiety of course forces us to). Also I really admire you for persisting in these practices for so long. I would never be able to do any of this (really). I'm sure you will benefit from this in your life as a 'normal person'. Good luck with pushing your boundaries!


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## Woodoow

Agree, this was really inspirational in the sense that there are other ways to perceive situations, that we don't have to be so serious and take everything personally.
Thank you for your clear reports (even though I'm a bit late by now  )


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## Diogenes1982

Hi to anyone who remembers me from before on this thread...it's been a little while since I posted anything on here, so I thought I'd give a brief update with a view to maybe making it more regular when there's anything to report.

The shame attacking I was doing before definitely helped me breakdown some false value judgements I was operating from. One of the most important things I realised, was actually how most people are genuinely nice and enjoy social interaction with others (even if it's with someone dressed up like I was!). This crucially restored some faith I had concerning the human race, and I found myself warming to people a lot more as a result. Mentally I found people much more approachable, which spurred me on to join a tennis and squash club. I've been a member there for a while now, I've played several matches, met quite a few different people of all ages, and have enjoyed this new social avenue which has been opened up.

Like a few people said on here before, shame attacking on it's own isn't going to cure SA sufferers, but it without doubt took enough of an edge off my anxiety in order to get me back mixing with people. From here, you can really start working on correcting the false value judgements you have, as that initial fear which stops you doing the things you want to, has subsided enough to let you try and discover your true nature as a rational and social being. We're here to work together after all.

More to follow...


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## Diogenes1982

*Value Judgements*

I'm just going to think aloud a bit with regards to the problems of holding value judgements which don't subscribe to reality.

Most, if not all, of my anxiety issues have stemmed from faulty value judgements about the world. Actually, someone who has been hugely successful financially, once told me that success in life depends on how closely your reality matches the actual reality. The more wisdom I acquire (I didn't start with a lot in the first place, so it wasn't difficult to increase my reserves), the more this makes sense to me. What I've been trying to do lately, is only assent to value judgements which are the incontrovertible reality. However, in order to do this, you need to be aware of that inner dialogue you have with yourself, of which most of the time, we don't even realise we're partaking in. This is where false judgements start and get ahold of us, in my opinion. My goal is try and attain a mindset which is objective, free of biases, and rid myself of opinion which is purely subjective. If I can do this more often, then I believe I'll be less inclined to let my mind run away with itself in irrationality, which in turn fuels all the unhealthy passions; anger, fear, lust, etc.. Once you let these type feelings manifest themselves in your mind, anxiety is often the result.

I'll give you an example of the inner dialogue I'm trying to initiate consciously with regard to external stimuli, which in the past have given rise to my "unhealthy passions". (All of this stuff I'm saying is with heavy reference to the stoics, so if what I'm saying resounds with yourself, I'd encourage you to have a look at their philosophy and understanding of the human condition.)

Example:

-I'm driving and someone is tailgating (driving behind close to my bumper) my car.

-What's happening?

-A person in the car behind mine is driving close to my car bumper.

-Anything else?

-Nothing else.

This above dialogue is free from all subjective opinion and is just describing the reality. If we did an opinion based inner dialogue, which most of us do, it would go something like the following:

-I'm driving and someone is tailgating (driving behind close to my bumper) my car.

-What's happening?

-A stupid young bloke is driving too close to ME.

-Anything else?

-Yes, he's annoying me; it's always dumb 20 year olds that drive like this on the road.

So obviously the above is riddled with subjective statements and value judgements, which if we had them while driving, we'd likely assent to if we didn't know any better, resulting in the unhealthy passion of anger taking over our thoughts and actions. Once this happens, anything is possible. So why does the first inner dialogue better fit the reality? Because we're not annoyed and hurt in the same way when we see another being tailgated. Therefore it's solely our own opinion and beliefs which are annoying us.


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## Diogenes1982

"Remove the judgement and you have removed the thought ‘I am hurt’; remove the thought ‘I am hurt’ and the hurt itself is removed."

Marcus Aurelius.


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## Diogenes1982

*What's in my control and what isn't?*

*My control*: My beliefs, my intentions to act, my actions.

*Not in my control*: My body, wealth, reputation, other people's beliefs and their actions, government decisions, the economy, the solar system, and everything else not in my control.

It's been said that all emotional suffering stems from getting these 2 lists mixed up, and I'm inclined to agree. If we wrongly believe that things which are not in our control are in our control, then we're going to come unstuck.

For instance, if I believe my wealth to be in my control, however then without warning my bank goes into liquidation, taking my money down with it, then I'm bound to be annoyed and depressed. Wrongly believing that I have absolute control over my wealth, and the value judgements tied up with this incorrect assumption, is the reason for my mental disturbance.

Of course, we can exert a degree of influence over some of the things in the "Not in my control" list, however ultimately, we can't decide to be a millionaire instantly, we can't choose when to be born or whether to stay free from all illnesses, or whether an asteroid hits the earth tomorrow or not. So maybe it would be wiser to concentrate the majority of our efforts on what's without disputation in our control, such as; our attitude, our beliefs, our value judgements, and the actions we undertake...fate permitting.


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## let it go

Diogenes1982 said:


> success in life depends on how closely your reality matches the actual reality.





Diogenes1982 said:


> "Remove the judgement and you have removed the thought 'I am hurt'; remove the thought 'I am hurt' and the hurt itself is removed."
> 
> Marcus Aurelius.


I really agree with these two quotes. Thinking rationally is really the key to curing SA and a range of other problems. I watched an interview on Warren Buffet and he said to be successful in investing you must be "emotionally stable". The best decision will be the one not clouded by emotions and bias.

Same thing with Social Anxiety. If you think rationally about social situations you will see that there is really no reason to 'fear'. Because in the end, these fears are irrational based on our own clouded judgements regarding social situations.


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## let it go

Once you figure that out, all you need to do is keep practising rational thinking.


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## SplendidBob

Love the thread man, really good stuff  gonna have a bash at this myself.


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## Diogenes1982

let it go said:


> Once you figure that out, all you need to do is keep practising rational thinking.


I agree, and from what I'm realising; fear, anxiety and all the other unhealthy passions, are a result of corrupted reason. This leads me to think that we need to discover the true reality of the the universe, our place within it, and our relations with mankind. This may sound a bit grandiose, but personally speaking, only an understanding of these philosophical questions will have a truly lasting impact on my mindset, and with them, an eradication of my previous distorted way of thinking.


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## Diogenes1982

splendidbob said:


> Love the thread man, really good stuff  gonna have a bash at this myself.


Glad to hear it, best of luck with everything.


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## SplendidBob

Oh btw, should point out this is actually the most entertaining thread on SAS  - I find your shame attacking not only hilarious (in a good way), but I also find it absolutely fascinating both in terms of peoples reactions, and in terms of how we happily take on board completely irrational fears and social constraints without question.


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## Diogenes1982

splendidbob said:


> Oh btw, should point out this is actually the most entertaining thread on SAS  - I find your shame attacking not only hilarious (in a good way), but I also find it absolutely fascinating both in terms of peoples reactions, and in terms of how we happily take on board completely irrational fears and social constraints without question.


Thanks for the compliments on the thread. I've actually forgotten a lot of the stuff I did, so I'll have to have a re-read sometime. Yes, it was very amusing to do at times, although on occasions I found the situation too funny! Definitely an eye opener if you want to jump in at the deep end on human psychology and social convention. For the record though, I think it's generally a good idea to fit in with logical norms, as part of our nature is kinship with fellow man, but equally, standing out from the crowd when they're acting contrary to reason is also good.


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## SplendidBob

How are things going now, and how beneficial would you consider it to have been? - what have you been doing since you did the shame attacking? (if you don't mind me asking). Would you find it difficult again to jump back into it? (has the effect worn off?)

Yeh, I agree with fitting into social norms, and yeh you are right about being able to stand up and be different when it matters (history provides many examples of this of course).

It seems to me to be quite 'powerful' though (if that is the right word) to have the ability to not be constrained by norms however. I am naturally suspicious of any behaviour that is 'automatic' (as if it is automatic then it implies a lack of reasoning), and most social 'normal' behaviour is just automatic and based on shame avoidance. But whilst I am aware of this, I find it frustrating that I still tend to initially think in these automatic ways.


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## Diogenes1982

I'm planning to go to the supermarket in a bit, so I thought I'd give a brief outline of some principles I intend to keep in mind and implement during my visit.

I'll be driving. *In my control*: The intention to drive to town, the ability to respond to any external events/stimuli with the appropriate virtues. *Out of my control*: The car's reliability, roads might be closed, I might be in an accident (minor pls, fate permitting), other road users decisions and behaviour.

If my car breaks down...well I never said it couldn't break down, and I foresaw this possibility anyway. As a result, I brush this off with better ease had I not thought about this happening.

If someone cuts my car up on the road...I know other driver's actions are completely out of my control, so I'll remain calm as it's insane to get angry at things I have no control over.

So I arrive at the supermarket. *In my control*: The intention to buy my items, the ability to respond to every external with indifference and virtuosity. *Out of my control*: People's actions and thoughts, the items might not be there, shop might be closed for a refurb, zombies running riot.

I go to the shelf and what I want isn't there...I'd already forseen this anyway, and it doesn't matter as I can easily get it the next time. No anger as a result.

Someone walks in front of me with their trolley...other people are completely out of my control therefore I accept this and wait patiently for my time to pass. I also know it's contrary to nature to feel annoyed at fellow man, we're here to work together, not against one another. Any annoyance would be because I've wrongly assumed someone's movements are in my control. But, knowing what we know, there's no frustration, just willing for the person to get to their destination - the frozen peas section .

Let's also apply an objective representation to something which may happen;

I'm in the chilled food section, and a child picks up a carton of fresh soup, which she proceeds to drop on the floor, with the contents going over my shoes.

-What happened?

A kid dropped some soup and it went on my shoes.

-Anything else?

Nothing else.

This is a true judgement of what happened in reality, except there are no value judgements tied to the initial judgement of the physical impression. The result is that I maintain my composure, and my soul is unmoved emotionally by this insignificant event. Mental serenity unaffected.


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## Diogenes1982

splendidbob said:


> How are things going now, and how beneficial would you consider it to have been? - what have you been doing since you did the shame attacking? (if you don't mind me asking). Would you find it difficult again to jump back into it? (has the effect worn off?)
> 
> Yeh, I agree with fitting into social norms, and yeh you are right about being able to stand up and be different when it matters (history provides many examples of this of course).
> 
> It seems to me to be quite 'powerful' though (if that is the right word) to have the ability to not be constrained by norms however. I am naturally suspicious of any behaviour that is 'automatic' (as if it is automatic then it implies a lack of reasoning), and most social 'normal' behaviour is just automatic and based on shame avoidance. But whilst I am aware of this, I find it frustrating that I still tend to initially think in these automatic ways.


I'll get back to you later, need to go out for bit. Peace.


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## Diogenes1982

splendidbob said:


> How are things going now, and how beneficial would you consider it to have been? - what have you been doing since you did the shame attacking? (if you don't mind me asking). Would you find it difficult again to jump back into it? (has the effect worn off?)
> 
> Yeh, I agree with fitting into social norms, and yeh you are right about being able to stand up and be different when it matters (history provides many examples of this of course).
> 
> It seems to me to be quite 'powerful' though (if that is the right word) to have the ability to not be constrained by norms however. I am naturally suspicious of any behaviour that is 'automatic' (as if it is automatic then it implies a lack of reasoning), and most social 'normal' behaviour is just automatic and based on shame avoidance. But whilst I am aware of this, I find it frustrating that I still tend to initially think in these automatic ways.


As I mentioned before, shame attacking crucially broke up the faulty belief I had about the average person, and the lack of faith I had in the human race. I discovered that most people are friendly (deep down I knew this already), and it was more a case of the dark tinted glasses I was looking at the world through. As a result, people became more approachable in my mind, because I'd proven over and over again, that even with my weird actions 95+% still talked, smiled or acknowledged me. This was the main lasting take-away from doing shame attacking, as well as knowing we operate within some very strict social boundaries which should be flouted when the time calls for it. The other thing I learnt was that if you're open with people and live in the moment of a conversation, they 9 times out of 10 reciprocate the openness and enjoy interacting with you - not a surprise really when you consider we're social and cooperative beings by nature. I still struggle with being open at times, but if you can be, then usually so will the other person.

Having had my faith in humanity restored, I joined a tennis and squash club, which is my main social outlet outside of family and old friends I meet up with. I've also been studying philosophy for the last two years, but in the last few months I've significantly upped the attention I'm paying to it, with the realisation that we're not going to be here forever, so I need to get my ship in order before any unexpected journeys.

I'm pretty sure I could get back into shame attacking with relative ease, and I still might in the future. However for now, I believe it's more important to discover what my true nature is as a human, and also what the true nature is of the universe. This is what I'm devoting most of my time to, through philosophy.


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## SplendidBob

thanks for response, most interesting.


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## AntiAnxiety

Diogenes1982 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> First post here on this forum, although I've visited a few times before. I thought I'd share what I'm doing and planning to do, in order to try to alleviate or lessen some of my social anxiety.
> 
> About a year ago I got into ancient Greek philosophy, and it's reassuring to read that people 2000 years ago had the same hang-ups as they do now. It's pretty obvious that CBT's shame attacking was based on some of the techniques these philosophers used themselves, and on their pupils to overcome the fear of being disapproved upon. So with their cue, I've just started doing it myself. It's worth noting though, that I'd first intended to do this 10 months ago, but I found many reasons not to! First step is the hardest in anything like this I think.
> 
> I've done it for 2 days, but I plan to do it for 7, then see if I feel any different; although I can already sense small changes now. My first day I wasn't sure what I was going to do, or where, however I knew I had to buy some milk for later. So, bought a litre of milk and got back in my car. I tried to get out of going through with it AGAIN, but this time said no to the little voice. Anyway, parked up in a sidestreet, and started walking up a busy local road pretending the milk was a dumbbell, doing bicep extensions - facial expressisons to match. This got some double takes from drivers. Did that for a while, then decided I needed to be more obvious, so I carried the milk on my head like those African women carry things! This got much more of a response, some laughed, others gave bemused looks, and others just stared. I also balanced it on my head with no hands while standing still waiting for cars to go by, it felt good!
> 
> On my second day I packed a few items and drove to a village near me. I parked up, took off my top and put on a dressing gown, shades, and a red bandanna. I then walked through the village saying morning to people (it was evening) while monitoring their reactions. This outfit got some very good reactions, laughter, bemusement and even a bit of sympathy i think! I decided to up the ante by doing some stretching and press-ups against the wall, randomly sprinting alongside some cars, and dancing on the pavement - good reactions from the public again, as in; they were laughing at a "fool".
> 
> Third day today, not sure what I'll do yet, but I'll give you an update how it goes and ends! I can't say if this is going to work or not, but I'm willing to try. That's all for now....


Lol, wow! Absolutely brilliant.


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## Diogenes1982

AntiAnxiety said:


> Lol, wow! Absolutely brilliant.


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## Diogenes1982

*Perspective and action needed*

It's very easy to get sucked into our own little 'mental' worlds, whether you're an SA sufferer or not, however there's injustices happening to us daily, which we should be paying much more attention to if we're to be dutiful citizens of this universe. This means that we need to gain some perspective on our so called "troubles", and instead address the real evil out there, not the imagined type in our minds. It strikes me that the 'powers that be' who are behind these atrocities in the world, and who also control the mainstream media to push their agendas to the gullible public, would be very content to see us cowering with life's daily routine activities, as there's then less people to stand up to their criminal actions. The question is though; are you going to play into their hands or not?


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## Diogenes1982

http://rethink911.org/


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## Diogenes1982

Today's afternoon plan.

I've got a game of squash later on, and there are several things I'll be trying to keep in mind for while I'm out.

*What's in my control? * My intention to get to the squash court, my intention to play to the best of my ability, my ability to play the game in good spirits, the proper use of impressions and judgements, having a genuine benevolent and social disposition.

*What's not in my control?* My car's reliability, the roads might be shut, the courts might be unexpectedly closed, injury, racket/string breaks, my opponent's skill, his game etiquette, the result, his general social attitude, his beliefs and thoughts about me, and everything else I haven't mentioned which is out of my sphere of choice.

So from the above, it's plain to see that the only real things I have complete control over, are my beliefs and intentions to act. Literally everything else is out of my control, therefore I should always be asking myself at every event or appearance that urges a reaction; is this thing inside my sphere of choice, or outside. Do I have direct control over this thing or not? If not, I must be prepared to say, "it means nothing to me." I move on unflustered.

Say for example, my opponent is a particularly bad sport on court (I seriously doubt this after meeting him, but for the example's sake), and his behaviour starts to unsettle me. I should take note of this unsettling feeling and immediately ask myself; "is his behaviour in my control or not?" The answer is no, therefore it means nothing to me. I carry on with the game ignoring his poor etiquette, because what he does doesn't concern me. If he wants to rant and rave engaging in bad moral behaviour, that's entirely his bad choice. Anything he says or does will only hurt himself, just as anything I say or do will only hurt myself. So although his behaviour is out of my control, my reaction to his behaviour IS in my control. This is what I focus my attention on, by using the appropriate virtues in order to keep my mental calm and detachment from something external. I'll use my patience, self-control and understanding that he's only reacting like he does because he's wrongly placed the good in the result of the game, not in the spirit of how it's played, and the fact that he's missing a chance for two relative strangers to bond and cooperate as humans are meant to do, due to the fact that he's put winning above community.

So for some people who might become upset at the above aggressive sportsmanship, it's entirely in our ability to rationally analyse the reality, and use this event to our advantage. The more I'm able to turn obstacles like this on their head and consume them for my own benefit, the more impregnable my mental well being becomes.

Emotional disturbance in my opinion, stems from us mixing up what's in our control and what isn't. Anxiety results from wanting to control an external thing, such as approval and praise. So, using another example which is more relevant to this forum; if I start to feel anxious today about meeting this person again, I'll take note of this anxiety and ask myself, "What am I trying to control here? His reaction to me, my reputation?? These things are most definitely out of my control, therefore they mean nothing to me. What's in my control are my own thoughts and intentions to act - this is where I'll focus my attention; on being genuinely benevolent, helping him in any way I can which is rational to do so, and enjoying the advanced level of interaction which only humans are able to do from the animal kingdom!" Note that I'm able to enjoy any kind of interaction whether it be friendly or hostile from my opponent, because I always have control over how I will use externals to my own advantage. If he's friendly, great - we can then enjoy cooperating and establishing a bond as is natural to humans. If he's unfriendly, it doesn't matter, I can deploy the appropriate wisdom and other virtues in order to enjoy the mental calm I'm able to maintain during this interaction. Afterwards I can praise myself for still being kind in the face of adversity.

If only it was as easy in the real world as in theory, however that's where the challenge lies for myself, and it'll only become a reality with continual practice.


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## Diogenes1982

"If you suffer distress because of some external cause, it is not the thing itself that troubles you but your judgement about it, and it is within your power to cancel that judgement at any moment." 

Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 8.47.


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## Diogenes1982

http://stoicscollege.com/PDF/Self-Coherence.pdf


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## Diogenes1982

A concept and thought I've really been thinking about in the last couple of days is; what is this consciousness we have? Is it directly tied to the living body, does it vanish when our body dies, does it go elsewhere into the cosmos, does it return in another life-form? Some of the ancient philosophy schools believed the soul/our consciousness was immortal and therefore carried on it's journey elsewhere, whereas others thought it was extinguished when we die. Naturally there's no definitive answer, however I'm inclined to believe it's immortal for reasons I might explain at a later date. This was an interesting article, maybe there's some clues here:http://rt.com/news/195056-life-after-death-study/


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## Diogenes1982

*Thoughts about consciousness*

The following post will have a theological tone, so if you're a staunch atheist then you may want to skip it. I'm not looking for a debate on the existence of god/the gods; these are just my own ponderings, which I feel like writing down. Of course I won't try to stop anyone posting their own views, but I reserve the right not to answer.

Like I said before, I've been contemplating what this consciousness we have really is; perhaps it's just a result of the functioning of the brain, but then perhaps it's something else. Maybe our consciousness is in fact our soul or spirit, which is kept within the confines of our body until death. Lots of philosophy talks about trying to separate the two (as much as possible as a mortal on earth can) while still alive, through the extirpation of the passions; lust, greed, anger, fear, etc. This is in order to reach the height of enlightenment or happiness, assuming you're already living a virtuous life. If we accept the stoic premise that a rational force/god has created the universe in a logical and reasoned order (e.g. the arrangement of the solar system, the elements and forces which allow life on earth, ecosystems); then maybe our own consciousness is a small part of the greater consciousness/god which was apportioned to each of us by the said higher power, and it's our job to unite ourselves with god/universal reason while still alive, in order to fulfill our potential as humans, or as the stoics would say; to live according to nature. What happens at the death of the body is of course unknown, but I'm inclined to believe that a spirit which has been maintained and looked after as is intended, would carry on it's journey elsewhere, or maybe our consciousness/spirit is reunited with the greater consciousness (the creator of all things), providing we've lived a morally good life....


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## Diogenes1982

*Further thoughts...*

Part of the reason I was attracted to the stoics, other than for the benefits I could gain from their comprehension of human behaviour, was the fact that they didn't play the religious card asking you to believe in a god because someone "said" so. I'm not saying that any religion is right or wrong in their beliefs, however I personally find it difficult to believe things reported as fact by certain religions which were meant to have happened thousands of years ago, when I know that certain things which have just happened in the last 10-100 years (7/7, 9/11, JFK, Titanic, to name but a few) will be reported as undisputed fact when they're anything but. I've learnt to distrust the majority's opinion, particularly with anything which is reported through mass media, therefore why should I trust any religion proclaiming to have the answers and "the god" when all we have is human word and so called facts, which is really nothing more than someone's word. I'm sure 99.9% of people believe the Titanic fable, which is surely less disputable by consensus than the Resurrection? We all know the story about the Titanic don't we?? It's been drummed into us since we were kids. However, how do you explain this novel written a full 14 years before the sinking of the Titanic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futility,_or_the_Wreck_of_the_Titan. The next thing any curious minds should look at is this:



Anyway, for the record, I do believe in God/the gods/the Logos, but I don't think the higher power would expect us to believe in his existence from 2000 year old accounts from sources we have no way of verifying. I think it's much more likely the greater consciousness/god would want us to deduct his/it's existence using our knowledge and the evidence in front of our eyes.


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## Diogenes1982

By the way, if anyone feels like chatting, feel free to send me a message. I understand the stuff I'm talking about might not be the subject matter which people want to comment on publicly.


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## Diogenes1982




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## Diogenes1982

I've just done something in my business activities, which might've potentially cost me an unknown, maybe large amount of money in the future. Let's rationalise this:

I closed a deal for a certain loss, however now as I write there seems to be potential profit left on the table if I took a different course of action.

*What happened?*

I closed a deal at a time I planned to close it if it was unprofitable. Now there's a profitable deal unavailable to myself.

*Anything else?*

Nothing else.

This objective representation is value judgement free, as a result I feel "ok".


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## Diogenes1982

I'm not really sure where to start with this post so I'll just write and trust it comes out in a comprehensible manner. If anyone's been keeping track of my last few posts on here, you'll probably be aware that I've been thinking about the big picture, what it all means, and how this knowledge may be able to help me in my time here.

I've come to the recent conclusion that our consciousness is potentially the part of us that doesn't die. Why do I think this? Well, our bodies come from the earth and they return to the earth; however as science hasn't been able to pinpoint exactly what our consciousness/self is, I'm of the thinking that this part of us comes from the greater consciousness/God, and will therefore return to reunify with or support "God". But, I don't believe this to automatically take place without the intention to lead morally better lives. You can't tell me that someone responsible for knowingly killing many people unjustly, is going to find his soul traversing to a better place after here!? 

The fact we have in-built moral traits which necessitates our getting along with each other means we're here for cooperation and friendship. Anyone working against these natural tendencies by harming the human community, is in my opinion not only making themselves bitter and twisted in this life, but if my theory about our soul continuing to exist; is endangering the possibility of a reunification with the divinity, or worse still; risking a unification with something else potentially. There's plenty of near death experiences where it's not all joy and light...something to ponder.

As for matters on this earth, it's pretty simple really; love fellow man. How best can I fulfill my role as a son, a brother, a friend, and as a member of the local AND universal community. These are the questions I continually need to ask myself, find the answers to, and action. Material possessions mean nothing in this world or the next; it's all about doing good for fellow man. That's my opinion anyway.


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## Diogenes1982

*Today's plan*


Treat others justly; in thought and action.
Live in the present moment.
Willingly accept the course of events which are outside of my direct control.

More on the above, in respective order:

- Have no abject thought about other people, and if I do, quickly correct myself remembering how imperfect I am. Constantly reflect on how any anti-social thoughts or actions to others are in direct conflict with my nature as a cooperative rational being.

- Don't torture myself about the past, and don't worry about the future; all my consciousness/self cares about is the present, and the present is the only place where happiness can be found. So, stop punishing for the past, and stop fretting for the future; be present in the present.

- At all times ask myself; "Is this situation/event in my control or not?". If it is, consider how I can meet my nature as a cooperative, benevolent and just person. If it isn't, be prepared to say, "it means nothing to me", therefore gaining the correct rational detachment from something which can neither be morally good or bad for myself. Good and bad is only relevant to my own moral choice of thought and action, everything else is indifferent in nature. However, even with things outside of my control, the correct reaction to these indifferent events IS in my control, and that is to accept the will of universal nature, or fate, while at all times conducting myself honourably.


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## Umpalumpa

Diogenes1982 said:


> I'm not really sure where to start with this post so I'll just write and trust it comes out in a comprehensible manner. If anyone's been keeping track of my last few posts on here, you'll probably be aware that I've been thinking about the big picture, what it all means, and how this knowledge may be able to help me in my time here.
> 
> I've come to the recent conclusion that our consciousness is potentially the part of us that doesn't die. Why do I think this? Well, our bodies come from the earth and they return to the earth; however as science hasn't been able to pinpoint exactly what our consciousness/self is, I'm of the thinking that this part of us comes from the greater consciousness/God, and will therefore return to reunify with or support "God". But, I don't believe this to automatically take place without the intention to lead morally better lives. You can't tell me that someone responsible for knowingly killing many people unjustly, is going to find his soul traversing to a better place after here!?
> 
> The fact we have in-built moral traits which necessitates our getting along with each other means we're here for cooperation and friendship. Anyone working against these natural tendencies by harming the human community, is in my opinion not only making themselves bitter and twisted in this life, but if my theory about our soul continuing to exist; is endangering the possibility of a reunification with the divinity, or worse still; risking a unification with something else potentially. There's plenty of near death experiences where it's not all joy and light...something to ponder.
> 
> As for matters on this earth, it's pretty simple really; love fellow man. How best can I fulfill my role as a son, a brother, a friend, and as a member of the local AND universal community. These are the questions I continually need to ask myself, find the answers to, and action. Material possessions mean nothing in this world or the next; it's all about doing good for fellow man. That's my opinion anyway.


And what about the 'bad' things that happens in this world? My more pessimistic side tells mre that everything is already in order, death brings life, plagues are there to balance the population, trends are a collective beliefs that will lead to the next trend in order for us to develop, we are getting hurt in order to rationalize but we bravely continue, like a baby that falls but tries again in order to walk, we have a timed life, the clock is ticking in order for us to have a purpose even if its purpose is simply living, filling in the clock.
So, we need to know of death, we need to know bad in order to know good.
The muscle wants to tighten up by itself, thats it ambitions but after its tighten up it wants to release itself, what is bad and what is good though?

My optimistic side tells me your are right...damn but then again, what about your wrongs? Wheres the balance? In order to be universally right, you need to be right in the wrongs, and thus...wrong.

So i will go with my instincs and say that instead of you being right or wrong, i would say that you are good my friend. Keep up the good work


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## Diogenes1982

Umpalumpa said:


> And what about the 'bad' things that happens in this world? My more pessimistic side tells mre that everything is already in order, death brings life, plagues are there to balance the population, trends are a collective beliefs that will lead to the next trend in order for us to develop, we are getting hurt in order to rationalize but we bravely continue, like a baby that falls but tries again in order to walk, we have a timed life, the clock is ticking in order for us to have a purpose even if its purpose is simply living, filling in the clock.
> So, we need to know of death, we need to know bad in order to know good.
> The muscle wants to tighten up by itself, thats it ambitions but after its tighten up it wants to release itself, what is bad and what is good though?
> 
> My optimistic side tells me your are right...damn but then again, what about your wrongs? Wheres the balance? In order to be universally right, you need to be right in the wrongs, and thus...wrong.
> 
> So i will go with my instincs and say that instead of you being right or wrong, i would say that you are good my friend. Keep up the good work


Thanks for your post.

I'm in line with the stoics where they hold that the only good or bad in the world is our own good or bad moral choice. Plagues, death, disease, wealth, lottery wins, glory, are all indifferent, but of course we can prefer some over others, as long as we accept the true nature of good and evil in the world.

I appreciate your kind words, even though I know nothing myself.


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## Diogenes1982

*Today's review*

*Things I did well*:

- Remained work focused during work hours.
- Posted info relevant to state justice.
- Spoke to a senior business acquaintance and lived in the moment mostly while doing so. No attempt to look for approval other than from myself and "Zeus".
- Thought through a challenge and came up with a solution, good logic.
- Contemplated universal reason and our potential reason for being here.
- Stayed level throughout the day.
- Resisted any movements of the flesh, reaffirmed the only good is virtue.
- Pinpointed my consciousness at times, separated it at times.
- Meditated for a short while.
- Remained very calm while shopping.
- Dined well.

*Things I didn't do well*:

- Wasn't aware of my consciousness and it's location consistently enough.
- Didn't do enough meditation.
- Lost some composure in the evening, although not much.
- Didn't do enough work for fellow man or community.

*Things I failed to do at all*:

- Didn't pre-plan my day laying out goals and principles to aim for.
- Didn't do any physical exercise.
- Didn't read any philosophy.

*Things I must do tomorrow*:

- Locate consciousness consistently and separate it from the body's movements with regularity.
- Live in the present as much as possible.
- Work for fellow man with directed aim.
- Read.


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## Diogenes1982

*Today's plan*

I've just completed a short meditation exercise, will do more later.

*Key things to focus on today*:

- Continually segregate your consciousness from your body and reflect how it is untouchable by anything outside.
- Have no unjust thought of others or yourself.
- Live exclusively in the present moment.
- Accept events outside of your control willingly as universal will/fate.
- Contemplate universal reason and virtue with regularity.


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## Rozco

I'm really feeling very motivated after reading your thread from starting.
You've never give up, I'll be looking forward of doing shame attack as therapy, medication, self-H book,etc didn't lasted longer. Anyways, best of luck! waiting to read more from you...


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## Diogenes1982

Rozco said:


> I'm really feeling very motivated after reading your thread from starting.
> You've never give up, I'll be looking forward of doing shame attack as therapy, medication, self-H book,etc didn't lasted longer. Anyways, best of luck! waiting to read more from you...


Thanks for your post.

I think it's important to also examine your faulty judgements about yourself and the outside world during the period you do shame attacking, as the benefits from both of these exercises working in unison are greater than just doing shame attacking exercises on their own.

All the best.


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## Rozco

Thanks for suggestion. 
btw, do you still fear public speaking?


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## Diogenes1982

Rozco said:


> Thanks for suggestion.
> btw, do you still fear public speaking?


I'm not sure, because I haven't had to do any public speaking in recent times, however the thought doesn't inspire the same kind of fear that it used to.


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## Diogenes1982

*Loss of discipline and control*

As some of you may be aware; I've been trying to extirpate the unhealthy passions (anger, greed, lust, fear) which corrupt my reason and always end up leading me to a state that is mentally and spiritually despairing. Well, after 2 and a half weeks of control in the main over these passions, and a small taste of joy which philosophy brings, I capitulated a couple of days ago and lost all discipline for a period of hours. Once in a spiral where good rational thinking no longer decides your actions, you become a slave to your unhealthy passions and anything is possible then. Obviously these passions can never be totally extirpated, as we're made up of flesh and constantly surrounded my mankind indulging in these passions, however they can be stopped dead in their tracks before they get remotely close to being acted upon. Anyway, the good thing about this whole episode is that I returned to reason afterwards, I read nourishing things which promoted a return towards a healthier mindset and spirit. Although I chose the correct course of action post loss of control, it goes to show that I still can't trust myself, and constant vigilance is required if I'm not to fall into vice and folly. Also, it'll take a couple of days, if not more, to build back up the good mindset and spirit I previously had, not to mention the guilty conscience I now have after breaking my rules. This is another reason for not corrupting your ruling faculty, because you actually do harm to it, as your thought process becomes corrupted, meaning you're back to square one having to repair all the damage done.


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## Diogenes1982




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## Diogenes1982

*Moved by beauty*

I've been wondering in recent times why the arts are capable of stirring something deep within us which science still can't conclusively explain. I accept that when we hear certain music in the present, which we heard in the past, it's capable of reminding us of our past life experiences we had during the first time around listening to said music, provoking nostalgia and other emotions, but what about for all the other arts that move us which we've never seen or heard before? For example, certain classical music can elicit involuntary emotional responses from myself, however I can say with 99.9% certainty that they don't remind me of a past experience on earth (in this life anyway).

The more I contemplate the possibility of each one of us possessing a tiny part of universal reason/consciousness/God, the more I think this is likely. This fragment of universal reason could be our consciousness and soul, which might be immortal, perhaps destined to rejoin with universal reason at the expiration of our body. There's plenty of people who've had near death experiences who report that their consciousness carried on after the official death of their body, and some even traversed to a different realm where they felt an indescribable amount of unconditional love from a source of light, and in turn they became the light themselves; a (re)unification. Once in this light and becoming the light, their love, intellect and knowledge was all great. Many also said how they felt like they'd finally returned home; this would fit into the theory of our soul/consciousness being a fragment of the creator of all - universal reason.

So, why do I think we're moved by things of beauty? When we see or hear something of such brilliance and sublime craftsmanship, our soul is stirred by this moving appearance, which could well remind us of the infinitely loving and beautiful universal consciousness that we've been separated from in order to experience a sole corporeal existence on earth.

This passage in an essay I read a while ago has always stuck in my mind:

_"...it seems to me that perhaps 
here too we are under the spell of a very old 
ineradicable instinct. We are gregarious 
animals ; our ancestors have been such for 
countless ages. We cannot help looking out 
on the world as gregarious animals do ; we 
see it in terms of humanity and of fellowship. 
Students of animals under domestication have 
shown us how the habits of a gregarious 
creature, taken away from his kind, are shaped 
in a thousand details by reference to the lost 
pack which is no longer there the pack 
which a dog tries to smell his way back to 
all the time he is out walking, the pack he 
calls to for help when danger threatens. It 
is a strange and touching thing, this eternal 
hunger of the gregarious animal for the herd 
of friends who are not there. *And it may be, 
it may very possibly be, that, in the matter 
of this Friend behind phenomena, our own 
yearning and our own almost ineradicable 
instinctive conviction, since they are certainly 
not founded on either reason or observation, 
are in origin the groping of a lonely-souled 
gregarious animal to find its herd or its herd- , 
leader in the great spaces between the stars. 
At any rate, it is a belief very difficult to 
get rid of.*"
_
_Professor G. Murray_.


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## social worker

Diogenes1982 said:


> As some of you may be aware; I've been trying to extirpate the unhealthy passions (anger, greed, lust, fear) which corrupt my reason and always end up leading me to a state that is mentally and spiritually despairing. Well, after 2 and a half weeks of control in the main over these passions, and a small taste of joy which philosophy brings, I capitulated a couple of days ago and lost all discipline for a period of hours. Once in a spiral where good rational thinking no longer decides your actions, you become a slave to your unhealthy passions and anything is possible then. Obviously these passions can never be totally extirpated, as we're made up of flesh and constantly surrounded my mankind indulging in these passions, however they can be stopped dead in their tracks before they get remotely close to being acted upon. Anyway, the good thing about this whole episode is that I returned to reason afterwards, I read nourishing things which promoted a return towards a healthier mindset and spirit. Although I chose the correct course of action post loss of control, it goes to show that I still can't trust myself, and constant vigilance is required if I'm not to fall into vice and folly. Also, it'll take a couple of days, if not more, to build back up the good mindset and spirit I previously had, not to mention the guilty conscience I now have after breaking my rules. This is another reason for not corrupting your ruling faculty, because you actually do harm to it, as your thought process becomes corrupted, meaning you're back to square one having to repair all the damage done.


_*The price of freedom is eternal vigilance*_.

_________________________________________________________

_"If my heart could do my thinking _
_And my head begin to feel_
_I would look upon the world anew_
_And know what's truly real. "_


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## Diogenes1982

social worker said:


> _*The price of freedom is eternal vigilance*_.
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> _"If my heart could do my thinking _
> _And my head begin to feel_
> _I would look upon the world anew_
> _And know what's truly real. "_


Highly probable.


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## Diogenes1982

*An evening plan*

I'll be going out for a couple of drinks a bit later on, and there are some things I want to keep in mind, in order to maintain the right mindset conducive for my mental and spiritual well being.

- Everyone I meet or see out, regardless of their station in life; whether they're a high earning company owner, or a loud drunk football supporter, are my brothers and sisters through the common possession of a soul capable of perfect reasoning (at times) and good moral intent. We've all been apportioned a tiny fragment of reason from universal reason, and as such we're here to work together. Mankind are limbs of the same body, therefore it's wholly irrational and contrary to nature to have any abject thought or intent against others.

- The only thing that concerns me is my own sphere of choice; choosing what's morally good, and spurning what's morally bad. For everything else that's outside of my control, I will on universal nature/fate and accept whatever happens as the way it has to be.

- To any impression that I receive from external stimuli; be certain to see it for what it really is. Don't attach any faulty value-judgements to reality, so as not to move the soul through unhealthy passions, which are the result of corrupted reason.

- Live in the present.

Guinness time! ;-)


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## Diogenes1982

*Interesting turnaround*

Today I was mildly irritated by a couple of friends, nothing major, but enough to get under my skin and to feel a bit short generally. I decided to take a big picture view about how insignificant anything anyone says or thinks about me is (unless they're someone of a similar standing to Socrates or Epictetus), especially when considered within the cosmological context of discovering a reason(s) for why we're here, and then the consequent fulfillment of this goal. There really isn't any time to waste being caught up with what so-and-so says or thinks; we're here for a very finite time with specific duties to complete before we exit this life. As corny as it sounds, I actually just decided to love the friends in question, and guess what...the inner good feelings returned.


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## Diogenes1982

*Success in Life*

It appears to me now, that we're at the biggest disconnect in history between what most of mankind perceive to be achieving success in life, and what the true attainment of success in life really is. Don't get me wrong, I was part of this great disconnect up until recently, however I no longer subscribe to what the general public call success.

Let's paint the picture of success according to how most in the western world would view it. Money has to be near the top of the list for most. Success for some means having lots of the stuff, millions; the nice cars, regular holidays to sunny locations, sizable country houses, city penthouses and maybe even a boat for the weekends!? However others would say just being "comfortable" equates success, but then what does comfortable mean; owning your own house, no financial worries, and a generous pension until the day they die? Even if it's the latter option, that's a lot of money needing to be earned by the time they pop their clogs!

Then there's being head over heels in love with someone who feels exactly the same way as you, and perhaps even marriage, with a couple of kids to follow in the future. To some this would equate success.

What about glory? The sportspeople toiling everyday to win a medal, or the climber trying to conquer Everest. Some would say the lofty reputation they'd gain from their "achievements" means they're a success in life. Many would agree with them.

These examples above are continuously fed to the population through various media, and most would say this is what they're aiming for too. So what's the problem? Well, there seems to me to be something missing from all the above examples of "success". Is moral excellence no longer anything to aim for in life? Why aren't we aspiring to be the person who only speaks truth, who's loyal, who's courageous in the face of mortal adversity, who uses wisdom to guide his behaviour at all times, and who loves the entire of mankind? Wouldn't someone who possesses this greatness of character be infinitely above any of the other illusions of success previously mentioned?


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## Diogenes1982

*I'm a soul trapped in a body*

At certain times recently, I've felt a very strong differentiation between my consciousness and body. I've come to view the former as my soul; the part of me which might be lucky enough to carry on to somewhere else, maybe somewhere better. During brief and all too fleeting moments of clarity, I can distinctively feel how my soul is separate from this body of "mine". In a way, it's quite liberating to realise this, and also quite strange. I've always associated them as one, and in a way they are, but I don't think this is the reality. Well, not in my eyes at least.

My opinion is; the body is on loan to our spirit to carry out whatever duty we've been assigned here for. What is that duty? Who knows, however I don't think it would stray far from working for the community and general human race. It seems inescapable that we're not here to work together with the specific moral traits which are peculiar to humans.

The body is made up of all the elements found on this earth, but what's the soul/consciousness/spirit made of; something divine perhaps? Essentially we don't control the body, yes we can influence it, however we can't avoid illness for sure, and death is an inevitability. For these reasons, the body isn't truly ours. What is ours then? Our ruling faculty which takes care of judgements, desires and intentions of action, and connected to this directing principle is our soul. So if we don't truly own our body and we do truly own our "self"/soul, then surely we should make a clearer distinction between the two?

What's the advantage of this? We don't get hung up on our body and image which isn't up to us, we develop a sense of security knowing nothing can permeate our inner self without our permission, we develop and feel an affinity with universal reason/consciousness which is where our soul has likely come from, and we become masters of our body and not the other way around.


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## Diogenes1982

*Accepting universal will*

_*What do I have to do to meet my nature as a rational being? *_

It's simple, when you have to make a decision about something; choose what's morally good, and avoid what's morally bad. For everything else which doesn't depend on you and isn't in your sole control, treat with indifference and willingly accept each moment as a necessity of causation since the beginning of time. If at any moment you notice you're becoming frustrated with something inevitable and out of your control, immediately cease this behaviour and remind yourself this is how it's meant to be.

Any event, no matter how much the general public would perceive it as "negative" or "awful", can be used to your advantage. Deploy the appropriate virtue and marvel at how well you dealt with the missiles of fortune. It's purely a case of perception and judgement.


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## Diogenes1982

*A life of service*

As I contemplate the age old question of why we're here, I keep getting drawn back to the general answer of helping mankind (as well as paying reverence to our host who's put on this festival). Personally, I don't believe we're all so individualistic that we can all have different goals and reasons for being here, although perhaps the way we help others could be unique to us. If I was to die today or tomorrow I'd feel very annoyed with myself for wasting so many years on pointless and usually harmful activities. I'm 32, so by averages I should have another 40 years to live, however we all know it doesn't work like that! A bus might well have my name on it somewhere today. Anyway, god willing, I'll have enough time to set myself straight, and then go about helping others in a way individual to me.


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## Diogenes1982

*The passions*

From my experience, the unhealthy passions such as fear, anger and lust, all originate from within the same place, or they do for me anyway. When I make an initial judgement about some external stimuli, I often feel a flutter-like involuntary response in my chest. This automatic response is never going to completely vanish, however I think it diminishes with time the more proficient one becomes at viewing things for their true worth. The real problems arise when I attach value judgements to these external stimuli after feeling the "flutter"; it's then that I feel the warm flush of blood running all over my body, stimulating my mind into a state of irrationality. At this point I can physically feel my passions corrupting my reason, weakening my resolve and will.

So how to stop this loss of rationality? Don't attach any value judgements to things outside of your control. Only desire moral good, and abhor moral evil. How to know if something's morally bad? If you'd feel any shame undertaking an action while someone you greatly respect watches, then you know it's wrong. In my view, the only thing worth desiring is virtue; there's no such thing as too much courage, too much kindness, too much wisdom, or too much truth. These things can't be exceeded or distorted in any kind of way. Whereas if we take the so called "pleasures", which most people desire (including me at times), once they're exceeded past a certain point, they turn into punishments.

A few drinks are fine, but after these, the stomach bloats, the mind goes, our words become slurred, vices come to the surface, and we're left feeling physically awful for the next 24 hours. How can the pleasure of alcohol truly be a good thing if it has such negative effects?

Indulging the body once in a while with a lover is fine, but the strong pursuit of sex only leads to frustration and regrets. The lust-riddled man believes he'll satisfy the craving with just one more passionate or depraved night, but it's a never-ending path. And he doesn't care about morals when he's giving chase or doing the deed, but he'll regret his actions after; perhaps minutes later, or perhaps years later. Eventually the conscience catches up with him. So how can sex truly be a good thing if it can be misused in so many ways?

These fragile natured "pleasures" can only be truly enjoyed by someone who's knowledgeable of their true worth, and disciplined in the execution thereof. However, virtue on the other hand is pure and perfect, and there can be no excess and regret where moral good is concerned.


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## Diogenes1982

*Slow learner*

When will you realise that anything not good for the part isn't good for the Whole, and anything not good for the whole isn't good for the part. Not only that; but what isn't good for the part is harmful to the Whole, and vice-versa! Whenever you do anything morally questionable or outright wrong, you do yourself harm, and alienate yourself further from mankind and the All. Wouldn't you rather be in the community, defending the health of the community with a clear guilt free conscience, than be those ones working against the common good and being a blight on the City?


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## Rozco

how's life going now??


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## hingedthomas

wow, thats soo ****n awsome. i need to do this stuff. i think this is the best way to beat SA, u r a ****n legend for doing this.


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## Diogenes1982

Rozco said:


> how's life going now??


Up and down, but an education as ever.


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## Diogenes1982

hingedthomas said:


> wow, thats soo ****n awsome. i need to do this stuff. i think this is the best way to beat SA, u r a ****n legend for doing this.


Lol, glad you've enjoyed reading.


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## Diogenes1982

*The L word*

I've been thinking today about something fundamental in my nature which needs to change; I need to find a consistent way of liking myself, dare I say "loving" myself. Now, before you think I'm up my own behind and on some kind of ego trip, this couldn't be further from the truth. I've concluded that we're here mainly to support and love one another on this earth, and there's no way that can happen until I hold some genuine good feelings for myself first, which are usually changeable at best. The times where I can approach a point where I truly like myself, are the times when I'm leading a morally good life. Then what happens, is that I get complacent with these feelings of mild self contentment, and instead of developing them, I go back to old destructive habits. So, in a nutshell, if I'm ever to reach a place where I can truly like myself and then as a result love others; I need to live by a moral code consistently. If I can't do this, I'll leave this world having failed to harness the most human of our core traits.


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## Rozco

If you find any way plz tell because its so hard to love ourself by just telling yourself or accepting ur flaws...


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## Diogenes1982

*More on the L word*

After having further contemplated how it's impossible for me to love others in a healthy way without first discovering a way to genuinely love myself; I've had some thoughts on relationships.

I've only really been involved in one "sort of" relationship, and even that was a very loose arrangement with minimal emotions involved. Before this, there were 2 or 3 girls who I liked, but for reasons of fear and ego, I never put myself on the line for possible rejection at the time when it was called for. As a result, they carried on with their lives.

Thinking back, I realise now that the attraction I felt towards these girls was more for certain traits they had, which I was lacking in my own character. In fact, I think it's quite common for people to get into relationships without having even ever learnt to love themselves. For example, when a person turns up in another's life and shows affection and love towards someone who doesn't feel that way about themselves; the receiver of these new affections is immediately attracted to that person, because self-love is what they're lacking, therefore they find it in someone else. However, the problem is; now their entire self-worth and esteem is tied up in this other person, and as a result, they're destined to be hurt emotionally as they have no true control over this other person's feelings or thoughts. Actually, these needy feelings disguising themselves as "love", will more than likely push the other person away, and they'll be left single again, but this time with even larger compounded emotional problems, because they never learnt to love themselves in the first place.

So, if I'm to ever develop a healthy form of love (based on respect, admiration and values) for another person in a relationship sense, there's things I need to accomplish first. However, above any personal relationship needs, I desire to love mankind first and foremost, but even for this, I need to have genuine good feelings for myself, and this needs to be brought about by living well, i.e., choosing moral good, and avoiding moral evil.


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## detweiler

Hey Diogenes. can you recommend any books, websites, etc. where I can learn about the stoic/philosophical insights that helped you get over the fear of judgment/social anxiety? I believe you referenced a man who was told to walk around in public with a banana on a leash; where can I hear more about that?


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## Diogenes1982

detweiler said:


> Hey Diogenes. can you recommend any books, websites, etc. where I can learn about the stoic/philosophical insights that helped you get over the fear of judgment? I believe you referenced a man who was told to walk around in public with a banana on a leash; where can I hear more about that?


Hi detweiler, these 2 books written recently on ancient philosophy and Stoicism are nice ones to get you started:

http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Li...F8&qid=1416495846&sr=8-1&keywords=jules+evans

http://www.amazon.com/Stoicism-Art-...d=1416495908&sr=1-1&keywords=donald+robertson

Once you've got your head around the basics and underlying philosophy of Stoicism, this classic book with Epictetus' teachings in, is the next one to read in my opinion (the version below is easiest to understand I'm led to believe):

http://www.amazon.com/Discourses-Ep...16496268&sr=1-2&keywords=epictetus+robin+hard

Then there's the other 2 ancient stoic text "must-haves":

http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Pengu...ie=UTF8&qid=1416497833&sr=1-1&keywords=seneca

http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-A...=meditations+marcus+aurelius+penguin+classics

With regard to the banana on a leash, that shame attacking exercise is used in CBT. Here's a video of it found on Jules Evans' site (the author of the first book I recommended) : 




The specific page this clip is from is this one; (http://philosophyforlife.org/philosophies-for-life/cynics/)
The cynics were the most famous school for openly disregarding ill informed opinion and societal conventions, therefore they're the ones where you can find most parallel with modern day shame attacking exercises. The following book is a good introduction about them and their exploits:

http://www.amazon.com/Cynic-Philoso...d=1416497396&sr=1-1&keywords=cynic+philosophy

Here's a useful Stoicism site where you can do a course by yourself; https://sites.google.com/site/thestoiclife/the-course
There's the odd bit missing as it's still being built, but there's still a lot of helpful things on it.

I should add, I'm still not completely fear free, however I'm in a much better place than when I started. I believe you have to make wholesale changes to your life and how you think, and that isn't an overnight process, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Anyway, that lot should be enough to keep you going for now; I've linked them all for the US Amazon, as according to your details on here, you're in the US. Send me a message or post here if you've got any Q's, cheers.


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## the collector

To OP : so your SA is cured now or much better??? Did shame attacking really work for you???????????????????????


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## Diogenes1982

Diogenes1982 said:


> As I mentioned before, shame attacking crucially broke up the faulty belief I had about the average person, and the lack of faith I had in the human race. I discovered that most people are friendly (deep down I knew this already), and it was more a case of the dark tinted glasses I was looking at the world through. As a result, people became more approachable in my mind, because I'd proven over and over again, that even with my weird actions 95+% still talked, smiled or acknowledged me. This was the main lasting take-away from doing shame attacking, as well as knowing we operate within some very strict social boundaries which should be flouted when the time calls for it. The other thing I learnt was that if you're open with people and live in the moment of a conversation, they 9 times out of 10 reciprocate the openness and enjoy interacting with you - not a surprise really when you consider we're social and cooperative beings by nature.





the collector said:


> To OP : so your SA is cured now or much better??? Did shame attacking really work for you???????????????????????


Hi, my SA is better than it was. With regards to your Q about shame attacking; I've quoted above a previous response when asked the same thing.

SA in my opinion, is all about faulty value judgements we've attached to the external world, therefore we really need to pay attention to our beliefs, attitudes and actions if we're going to make permanent changes. Does our reality match the reality? If not, we're going to be strangers in this world, unaware of the laws we need to abide by to live well.


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## Diogenes1982

*Work error*

This morning I made a mistake in my business activities and the execution thereof, which has already cost me a fair bit in realised losses, as well as a large amount in missed profits; and this could be much larger by Monday morning. What I believed was "certain" to happen, which was why I took my course of action, didn't materialise, and that's why this is going to negatively affect my bottom line. The reason I made this mistake was because of a bias I was holding about this certain situation, and I'd closed my mind to any possibility of the unfolding circumstances not being the one I predicted. However, being so sure of myself and blinkered in potential outcomes, means that I'm ultimately going to pay; it's just a question of how much.

So what can I learn from this? Well, it's obvious from the above analysis that my reality didn't match the reality. Therefore, for the two to align, there's going to be a price. Also, if at anytime I refuse to keep my mind open for the myriad of possibilities which can occur; I will by necessity get caught out. These problems are from the ego always needing to be right, wanting to lead events instead of following events. There are rare occasions to break rules, however this wasn't one of them.

The reason I'm not more annoyed is because I was proved so emphatically wrong this morning, so this is a good chance to re-learn a lesson; *expect anything to happen, because it usually does, and always follow your rules*. Although I wasn't at all arrogant, I really thought I was right..._so right_ that after intervening with my business protocols I just went and casually had a bath!

All of this above is directly applicable to life in a general sense. If we close our minds to the possibility of something happening we're not expecting, there's going to be problems ahead for us. Also, whenever we operate from a bias, we consequently fail to see the reality in front of us, which makes it very difficult to right our wrong behaviour. So, we need to keep an open mind and do what's been proven to work from past experience and history.


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## the collector

Same attacking? There has got to be another way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## the collector

no way i'm making a fool of myself like this.........this is stupid......screw shame attacking.


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## Diogenes1982




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## Diogenes1982




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## Diogenes1982

The only thing you need to concern yourself with is living according to nature. What does that mean? It means living according to your nature as a man firstly. What's man's essential nature? Being virtuous and cooperative with all other men, recognising that we're all just one being placed here to work together. What about universal nature? Simply put, it's this; accept everything that's out of your control and inevitable, as Universal Will's planned sequence of events. Willingly follow whatever the course, so long as you can maintain your honour and dignity. And if you can't? The door is open, just leave.

The only beings you need to seek approval from, are yourself and the Other. If at any time you catch yourself seeking approval or trying to please someone else, you have forgotten what's in your control and what isn't. If you want to progress, there can be no hint of servility to fellow man in your attitude or actions. You're here to act honourably for yourself and the Divine, not to please anyone else. Sure, work for the common good, but solely because this is what your nature as a human dictates. Disregard opinion and reputation. If you're living as a man should, why would you care what anyone else thinks?


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## Diogenes1982

Now you're convinced of the Divine's existence, there's no need to further prove this to yourself; the evidence speaks for itself. If you want to keep researching, that's fine, but don't get hung up on the spiritual realm when there's more pressing duties to be done in this world. 

Your job is to bring his work to completion by fulfilling your potential. Successful career? Large house? Monetary riches? None of these. All those are mankind's incorrect and material conclusions of success. There's nothing wrong with having material possessions or riches, so long as you're not a slave to them. Looking ahead, if you were to lose all your wealth tomorrow, you should be no less content than you are today. Also, you should choose a moderate ending point where you will cease to acquire wealth for yourself and future family (fate permitting), at which point you'll work for the greater good in one way or another. Actually, even while pursuing the goal of setting yourself up materially through your business, this will still be for the main purpose, and your eye will always be on how you can best serve mankind presently and in the future. 

Fulfilling your potential relates to the discipline of desire, logic, and action for mankind:

Desire; master your passions, live in the present, and accept destiny. 

Logic; only give your assent to reality, and suspend judgement when you don't have the facts. 

Action for mankind; work for the benefit of the common good, with a reserve clause for destiny. Treat all with benevolence and justice. 

Also, pay reverence to Universal Reason/God, and it's crucial to remember that we have a spark of the divinity within; our consciousness and spirit, this is what carries on. Guard this fragment of the deity, in order to make sure it's not harmed by immoral behaviour.


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## the collector

I wanna take back what I said b4.I was just scared $***less thinking about what it wud be like to do this...I can see the potential benefit of it now..I'd have to do it in a area where I wouldn't be recognized though so as not to start a reputation of being a retarded..


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## Diogenes1982

the collector said:


> I wanna take back what I said b4.I was just scared $***less thinking about what it wud be like to do this...I can see the potential benefit of it now..I'd have to do it in a area where I wouldn't be recognized though so as not to start a reputation of being a retarded..


Good luck.


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## Diogenes1982

Off to buy some beers in a minute; what's in your control? My beliefs and my intentions to act. Such as what? Well, namely that I intend to drive to the shop and buy a crate, fate permitting. If Universal Will (destiny) puts obstacles in my path, I have it in my power to use them to my benefit. That's all I have control over. What's not in your control then? The car might not start, there might be an accident which I could be in myself, roads closed, careless drivers, beer out of stock, card might not work, slow shoppers. 

What's the point of this? A quick assessment of this stoic dogma of what's in my control and what isn't, provides me with the ability to remain composed even through these anticipated setbacks, as I "knew" they could happen. I'm also expecting the unexpected.

I'm here only to gain approval from myself and God. There's no man or woman I'm seeking to impress, regardless of where I am, or in who's company I keep, as this equates to trying to control externals, which is against the laws of nature.


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## Diogenes1982

*Sleep with one eye open*

Is there a worse thought that when you die, you look back on your life and realise you've wasted your years by giving insignificant things priority over what truly matters? You've already wasted a great part of your corporeal existence by being a slave to the motions of your flesh, and the insatiable desires of your ego. In recent times you've become a "bit" better, but you're far from out of the woods, in fact you're liable to trip up at any moment; like you almost did yesterday. At the moment your mind isn't pure enough to be left to it's own devices, because it turns back to what's been it's bread and butter for all these past years; desire for material gain, lust and fear. Until you've broken this stubborn despot, you need to discipline him at every turn. For now, don't trust him, even if he proclaims he's cured; he's just a very convincing actor! Let's see he's mended at least some of his ways before we give him any credence.


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## the collector

Diogenes1982 said:


> Is there a worse thought that when you die, you look back on your life and realise you've wasted your years by giving insignificant things priority over what truly matters? You've already wasted a great part of your corporeal existence by being a slave to the motions of your flesh, and the insatiable desires of your ego. In recent times you've become a "bit" better, but you're far from out of the woods, in fact you're liable to trip up at any moment; like you almost did yesterday. At the moment your mind isn't pure enough to be left to it's own devices, because it turns back to what's been it's bread and butter for all these past years; desire for material gain, lust and fear. Until you've broken this stubborn despot, you need to discipline him at every turn. For now, don't trust him, even if he proclaims he's cured; he's just a very convincing actor! Let's see he's mended at least some of his ways before we give him any credence.


so ur saving yourself for marriage?


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## Diogenes1982

the collector said:


> so ur saving yourself for marriage?


No, but I admire anyone who has done, or is doing that. I'm aiming to become the master of my body, and not the other way around. That doesn't mean I won't indulge my body once in a while, but only when I'm sure that I have complete autonomy over it. Also, it will have to be done in the right way, i.e., honourably.

It comes back to the premise where indifferent "goods", such as; money, property, sex, power, etc., inherently possess no good or evil, however the way they're used can be good or evil. But, in order to know correctly how to use these things, we need to acquire wisdom and knowledge (true goods) first. So until that point, it's safer not to use them, lest they become our masters and force us into vice.


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## Diogenes1982

*Locating the good*

You know it's there somewhere deep within you, and you know it comes out in fleeting moments. Sometimes it even directs your behavior for an all too short a time, but without doubt, it abides in your being. It's even a guardian for you and others occasionally, but as soon as the ego wrestles back dominance of your thoughts and actions, the good retires back to within, so as not to be tainted by this madman's lunacy. Usually, the good only reappears to salvage you once this asylum dweller has exhausted himself from vice, however recently you've come through some tests, grazed but not harmed. These scrapes will heal quickly if you maintain the correct path. How can you do that? Just let the good direct you, simple as that. Be a guardian over yourself and others, not in a teacher way, just in the sense where every decision you make; will have the common good's best interests at heart. Any intention or action which doesn't further unify humans with one another, is a blow against nature's goal, and you'll be the one paying for that mistake through cause and effect.


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## the collector

So basically you believe in God?


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## Diogenes1982

the collector said:


> So basically you believe in God?


Yes.


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## Diogenes1982

*Every thought, every action.*

Anytime you're not thinking how you can best fulfill your nature within nature, and then acting appropriately; you're wasting precious time, which you can't get back. The only way you personally can stay on the straight and narrow, is through complete devotion to the cause. You need to keep educating yourself on the mindset required, you need to practice all you've learnt in daily life, and you have to maintain perspective on why you're here. Master your passions, lest you'll be their slave, slave.


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## Diogenes1982

*Externals*

See a pretty girl? Don't imagine what isn't noble, instead take a detached view of her physical beauty, while remembering, where true beauty is found. If you mistakenly put the good in physical beauty which is actually decaying before your very eyes, you're sure to go down the wrong path; a path contrary to nature. One built by the insatiable passions which has no end. So where is the good to be found? In moral excellence, the virtues. The only things worth truly admiring are those things which are within our freewill, i.e., the choice of virtue over vice. See someone conquering his passions, or another helping his fellow man? Yes, be impressed, be moved, better still, be like that!


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## monotonous

Diogenes1982 said:


> Is there a worse thought that when you die, you look back on your life and realise you've wasted your years by giving insignificant things priority over what truly matters? You've already wasted a great part of your corporeal existence by being a slave to the motions of your flesh, and the insatiable desires of your ego. In recent times you've become a "bit" better, but you're far from out of the woods, in fact you're liable to trip up at any moment; like you almost did yesterday. At the moment your mind isn't pure enough to be left to it's own devices, because it turns back to what's been it's bread and butter for all these past years; desire for material gain, lust and fear. Until you've broken this stubborn despot, you need to discipline him at every turn. For now, don't trust him, even if he proclaims he's cured; he's just a very convincing actor! Let's see he's mended at least some of his ways before we give him any credence.


very well written


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## Diogenes1982

monotonous said:


> very well written


Cheers.


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## Diogenes1982

Well, you've outdone yourself again! You've been the sole driver of the vice express for the last 48 hours, yet you managed to get off before the train-wreck; at least that's something. There seems to be only so far you can go with dishonour nowadays, and that's probably because you've been made aware of the truth, even though your lizard brain does it's best to ignore this reality. 3 words; sort it out.


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## Diogenes1982

If you always put the common good's needs above yours, you'll go "less" wrong. Whenever you've put your own needs above the well-being of the Whole in the past, you've felt the negative effects in one way or another. This is a universal law, which can't be broken.


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## Diogenes1982

*A calm mind*

To truly progress and break out of this unhealthy way of living, firstly you need to purify yourself. That means; no abject thoughts about others or yourself, controlling your frustration and anger, disciplining the body's desires for food, drink and sex, accepting unchangeable fate willingly, being fearless of the external environment, and constant suppression of the ego's desire for material gain and reputation. Once you've suitably gained control of these desires and aversions, your mental serenity, which will be devoid of the unhealthy passions pulling you this way and that, will allow you to move onto the disciplines of logic and action for humankind. This is how you'll fulfill your nature and potential.


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## Diogenes1982

Someone drives erratically on the road causing you to alter your speed or position on the road. Public response = fear/anger and road rage.

What happened? A guy drove quickly towards me causing me to turn out of his path. Anything else? Nothing else.

Was this driver's actions inside or outside the sphere of choice? Outside. So what do we do with this impression? Throw it away; it means nothing to me. But you could've come to harm or died? Incorrect, my body may have been harmed or killed, but not me. Also, death is an indifferent and a necessity. Dying isn't bad, but dying scared and reluctantly is bad. To die reluctantly is to disagree with the divine plan, and anyway, only self-conceited humans can call death a bad thing when they don't know what lies after.


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## Byotec

So basically shame attacking is training to not be afraid of society judging you, ?
That would help as at least my sa is because I am afraid how people look at me, afraid of them saying "Theres that weirdo *****" which makes me keep to myself, but it just becomes "Theres that antisocial emo kid" 

.


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## Diogenes1982

Byotec said:


> So basically shame attacking is training to not be afraid of society judging you, ?
> That would help as at least my sa is because I am afraid how people look at me, afraid of them saying "Theres that weirdo *****" which makes me keep to myself, but it just becomes "Theres that antisocial emo kid"
> 
> .


http://philosophy-of-cbt.com/2010/09/10/excerpt-shame-attacking-exercises/


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## Diogenes1982

*Laws*

If we accept the premise; that the universe works according to observable scientific and mathematical laws, which permits all the parts of the world and cosmos to work harmoniously together, and we as humans are a part of this universe; then by necessity, laws must also permeate us and our moral behaviour. Therefore, it appears to me, that we must follow certain laws according to our nature as human beings, otherwise we'll be on the receiving end of personal and collective pain, as a result of breaking these laws. In fact, I'd speculate that the reason you and me are even on this forum; is because we've been breaking the rules up to now. So, what do we have to do? Find a set of rules and laws that we believe most accurately represents the reality, and then abide by them.


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## Diogenes1982

Today's thought to put into action:

- Treat all you meet today with justice and benevolence.

Justice in what sense? That you should have no ignoble thoughts about anyone, and that everyone has a right to be treated fairly. This means being completely unbiased in your thoughts and actions about everyone, and giving all a "clean slate" when interacting with them. You must also remember that thoughts are the same as actions, therefore if you have any resentful or unfair thoughts about anyone or their behaviour, this is the same as saying it aloud or showing your disapproval in action - in the sense that you're still acting contrary to nature/the divine plan, which obviously states we're here for cooperation and to support one another. Breaking this law will result in you being the one to suffer through frustration, anger, guilt, or some other such negative emotion, as well as a lessened ability to feel unity with the Whole.


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## Diogenes1982

Happy Christmas to all.


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## radiantrose

*Our purpose in life*



Diogenes1982 said:


> At certain times recently, I've felt a very strong differentiation between my consciousness and body. I've come to view the former as my soul; the part of me which might be lucky enough to carry on to somewhere else, maybe somewhere better. During brief and all too fleeting moments of clarity, I can distinctively feel how my soul is separate from this body of "mine". In a way, it's quite liberating to realise this, and also quite strange. I've always associated them as one, and in a way they are, but I don't think this is the reality. Well, not in my eyes at least.
> 
> My opinion is; the body is on loan to our spirit to carry out whatever duty we've been assigned here for. What is that duty? Who knows, however I don't think it would stray far from working for the community and general human race. It seems inescapable that we're not here to work together with the specific moral traits which are peculiar to humans.
> 
> The body is made up of all the elements found on this earth, but what's the soul/consciousness/spirit made of; something divine perhaps? Essentially we don't control the body, yes we can influence it, however we can't avoid illness for sure, and death is an inevitability. For these reasons, the body isn't truly ours. What is ours then? Our ruling faculty which takes care of judgements, desires and intentions of action, and connected to this directing principle is our soul. So if we don't truly own our body and we do truly own our "self"/soul, then surely we should make a clearer distinction between the two?
> 
> What's the advantage of this? We don't get hung up on our body and image which isn't up to us, we develop a sense of security knowing nothing can permeate our inner self without our permission, we develop and feel an affinity with universal reason/consciousness which is where our soul has likely come from, and we become masters of our body and not the other way around.


I agree that our soul lives forever, even once our body has died. But I have to disagree about our purpose here on earth. I believe we are here to glorify God with our lives.

He sent His only son to earth to live as a God/Man and die at the age of 33. That seems like a waste of a life doesn't it? But Jesus Christ didn't stay in the grave.... He came back to life, defeating death once and for all. He was sinless, the only person who could pay the required penalty for our sins.

Now we have a choice: 1. Accept the Lord's gift of salvation or 2. Reject it.

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." (Hebrews 9:27-28)

So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:4-9)

Your eternal destiny hangs in the balance.


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## Diogenes1982

radiantrose said:


> I agree that our soul lives forever, even once our body has died. But I have to disagree about our purpose here on earth. I believe we are here to glorify God with our lives.
> 
> He sent His only son to earth to live as a God/Man and die at the age of 33. That seems like a waste of a life doesn't it? But Jesus Christ didn't stay in the grave.... He came back to life, defeating death once and for all. He was sinless, the only person who could pay the required penalty for our sins.
> 
> Now we have a choice: 1. Accept the Lord's gift of salvation or 2. Reject it.
> 
> "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." (Hebrews 9:27-28)
> 
> So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31
> 
> But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:4-9)
> 
> Your eternal destiny hangs in the balance.


If those are your beliefs, then very well. I'm not really here to have a religious debate because we'll be here forever, however I've arrived at the conclusion that there's a divine plan using logical and rational deduction, as personally I struggle to just accept events reported and written by humans thousands of years ago. It may well have happened as said, but I need a more rational road to faith.

Thanks for your post.


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## Diogenes1982

*New Year's Lunch*

I've got a lunch today, and I'll be aiming to keep the following in mind:

- Live in the present only, and engage in conversation with your entire attention focused on that very moment.

- Be just to all present by having no ignoble thoughts about anyone or yourself, regardless of what they say. Any comments which are questionable in taste, are made through ignorance of what's right and wrong.

- Always remember that the only thing you have control over are your thoughts and intentions to act, nothing more. This means you treat everything else with benevolent indifference, while accepting whatever fate dictates for you.

Happy new year.


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## Diogenes1982

*Plotinus on beauty*

_*"Withdraw into yourself and look. And if you do not find yourself
beautiful yet, act as does the creator of a statue that is to be
made beautiful; he cuts away here, he smoothes there, he makes
this line lighter, this other purer, until a lovely face has grown
upon his work. So do you also: cut away all that is excessive,
straighten all that is crooked, bring light to all that is overcast,
labour to make all one glow of beauty and never cease chiselling
your statue, until there shall shine out on you from it the godlike
splendour of virtue, until you shall see the perfect goodness surely
established in the stainless shrine... Never can the soul have
vision of the First Beauty unless itself be beautiful."*_


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## radiantrose

*religious belief*



Diogenes1982 said:


> If those are your beliefs, then very well. I'm not really here to have a religious debate because we'll be here forever, however I've arrived at the conclusion that there's a divine plan using logical and rational deduction, as personally I struggle to just accept events reported and written by humans thousands of years ago. It may well have happened as said, but I need a more rational road to faith.
> 
> Thanks for your post.


You are welcome. 
As for the Bible....You don't think God could have told men what to write? 
Could you give me your definition of "rational" please?


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## Diogenes1982

radiantrose said:


> You are welcome.
> As for the Bible....You don't think God could have told men what to write?
> Could you give me your definition of "rational" please?


Of course I think God could've told men what to write (especially when I believe we have a spark of the divinity within), in fact I think it's highly likely that most religious texts from all the different religions of the world are inspired by God's teachings during encounters and mystical experiences with the Supreme. I don't doubt that a high proportion of differing religion's holy books and scriptures are true, however the problem I have; is that humans are naturally biased, unobjective, and often have agendas, which consequently become entangled with the pure truth. Therefore, it's with a degree of skepticism that I take everything written as gospel. I prefer to "trust but verify".

I believe that our logical and reasoning abilities shouldn't be cast aside even on matters of faith. In my view, there's a logic and intellect which is common throughout the whole cosmos, and this same logic and intellect has likely come from God who possesses it in a perfect form beyond our comprehension. Therefore, it seems counter to our nature as rational and reasoning beings, to accept blindly what other humans have told us are the facts, even though they may be true.

Religious texts will provide much guidance and help, however I also believe that we should think for ourselves; combining these past teachings and our own logic, in order to arrive at conclusions on the Supreme's infinite presence and on the nature of our role here. Of course, these deductions are likely to evolve as we evolve as spiritual people, so we'll never have the definitive answers. But, most of the answers for the basic fundamental questions "seem" to be in front of our noses anyway (and within us of course), we just need an open mind.


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## Diogenes1982

Key things to focus on today:

- Only give your assent to the actual reality of a situation. Do not attach value judgements to situations, as these are what move the soul into a state of unhealthy passion. Constantly break down each situation and occurrence into it's true form, and unless a correct moral choice is required, it means nothing to you.

- Always remember what's in your control and what isn't. Whenever you wrongly place an external as something under your control, you will by necessity come unstuck. With regards to you business activities, money is and always will be an indifferent, which has no bearing on you fulfilling your potential as a rational being. Remember you can only control your intention to execute your plan perfectly. The numerous external factors affecting the outcome of each transaction are completely out of your control, although your ability to deal with each event honourably and rationally is in your control. Do this as intended by your nature, and you'll gain proficiency.

- There can be no seeking of approval towards any other man. Everything you say or do must be because you believe it to be right according to your belief system. Whenever anyone does something to gain acceptance from another person, they have unwittingly confused in their own mind what they control and what they don't. By living according to opinion and not what's morally right, they'll forever be tortured by this need to please everyone except themselves. Something you've noticed you do; is that when you've engaged in some questionable moral behaviour, you seek approval from others more, because your opinion of yourself isn't sufficiently good on it's own standing. Live morally well and this need for acceptance vanishes.


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## Diogenes1982

Always put the common good above your own ego and bodily desires, and you'll receive the benefit of adhering to this universal law, which is a kinship with your fellow man, and a unity with the Whole.


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## Diogenes1982

The only way you can keep out of trouble, a.k.a; the vices, is engrossing yourself in philosophy, research and sport. Whenever you're left too long in your own company without focus on an engrossing and useful topic, "the devil finds work for idle hands". You truly have to believe this, otherwise you get stuck in the same old cycle. Always keep a tension of spirit while being on guard for the usual suspects.

You broke a rule today by becoming mildly irritable with something outside of your control. Always remember what is and isn't in your control, and whatever isn't in your control, accept the course of events willingly as cause and effect necessitates you must. This is divine destiny, and to be annoyed at anything outside of your control is insane and impious.

All actions you take must be virtuous in nature. You're not seeking approval from anyone except yourself and the Other, no ignoble thoughts about yourself or anyone else - everyone deserves justice. To think anything negatively about anyone else, is to wound yourself, because we're all limbs of the same organism. Don't break this law; the one which dictates we're here to work together. Anything "so called" questionable in morality said or done by someone else, is purely committed though ignorance of what's right and what's wrong. Use benevolence and patience to rise above such situations.


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## Diogenes1982

If you want to achieve control over an unhealthy desire, then this is achieved by controlling all desires. The task of conquering a single desire is made much more difficult when you give in to other ones.


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## Sourdog

This thread's gone crazy!


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## Diogenes1982

Sourdog said:


> This thread's gone crazy!


:yes


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## Diogenes1982

There can never be too much emphasis on the importance of not having negative thoughts about others. If you go down this wrong mental path where you're trying to avoid people due to negative judgements about their behaviour, or you're just thinking unjust or unfriendly things, you're doing yourself great harm. We're all connected, we're all one body; therefore, having said thoughts is injuring yourself more than anyone else. As Marcus says, you need to aim for the benevolent attitude towards others, and a general honourable state of mind, where you'd feel completely at ease in having your thoughts openly viewable to all at all times. Whenever you can't have your thoughts in full open view; you're falling short of being a man.


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## Diogenes1982

Ancient Greco-Roman philosophies, such as Cynicism and Stoicism, had as their motto this simple phrase to guide the lover of wisdom (philosopher) to true lasting joy and enlightenment:

*"Live in harmony with nature." *

Examining briefly what this exactly means, we're led to two obvious interpretations of the word "nature".

1. Nature of a human.
2. Nature of the universe/cosmos and God (if you're not an atheist).

For this post I'm going to expand on (1), I'll come to (2) at a later date.

*So what's the nature peculiar to man? What separates us from other mammals?* It's our natural inclination to virtue. We could also say our reasoning abilities are unique, however other mammals are able to reason as well, although at a much lower level, therefore it's not our "peculiar" nature.

So, based on this premise, a human's nature is to live virtuously, while using our highly developed, yet not unique, reasoning abilities. As a result, every thought and action should be directed towards fulfilling our nature as humans. All other actions we perform in line with the animal kingdom, which we've been distracted by for so long, should be given their appropriate worth. Let's have a closer look at those...

*What does it mean to eat in harmony with nature?* Put simply; eat to live, not live to eat. Eat moderate amounts of natural nourishing food, and avoid the opposite. If we were meant to eat for pleasure, then surely we'd be able to chew and swallow our food for much longer to savour the taste?

*What does it mean to stay healthy physically in harmony with nature?* Well, seeing that most of us don't work the land anymore, we need to keep fit by other means, however that doesn't mean we have to live in a gym or look like bodybuilders. Exercise in moderation, strengthen and tone our natural shape - don't add extra unnecessary muscle. There's a reason that your muscles shrink back to normal size when you stop working out; that's the size you're meant to be.

*What does it mean to have sex in harmony with nature?* This is going to sound controversial to most, but from nature's perspective; sex is for reproduction and the continuation of the human species, and the pleasure part is a side effect to encourage procreation. It seems to me that we as a human race, brainwashed by a highly sexualised media, have erroneously turned sex upside down, and are exploiting the side effects of a mammal based action for a few seconds of "pleasure", while marginalising the real reason for the process. Surely if we were meant to have sex for pleasure, we wouldn't need contraceptives so often? But, try telling people they can't have sex anymore except to try for children, and 99.9% of people will think you're mad. But maybe the world has gone mad?

So, what are the benefits of reclassifying all these shared animal behaviours according to their natural true worth. Well, as someone who doesn't fully live this way (yet), I can't tell you for sure, but there are some people (Epictetus, Socrates, Plotinus, to name a few...) who have conquered the world of sense, and have informed us why we should strive to accomplish the same. However, in short, the essence of why, is to appeal to our higher nature as humans, which is our soul/consciousness, and not to our lower nature, which we share with the animals; body/matter. This is the road said to lead to enlightenment and true happiness.


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## Diogenes1982

*Thursday fasting*

Today, I won't be eating any food. There's a few reasons why I intend to make this a more regular practice in my life, which I'll expand on below.

Many people can testify, including myself, that surprisingly there's more pleasure gained in abstaining from pleasure, than in the indulgence thereof. This is enough of a reason for many to follow the path of moderation and abstinence, however, my reasons for embarking on this way of life don't stop there.

As some of you may be aware who've read this thread, I maintain the premise that we're souls in bodies, here to govern this physical realm by applying wisdom, and the other virtues, to our thoughts and actions. Whenever we over-indulge the body in matter based "pleasures", such as; extravagant or excessive eating and drinking, profligate sexual gratification, or the acquisition of items we don't need, our soul sinks further into this world of matter, making it ever harder to lead a way of life deserving of the divinity within.

This may sound extreme to you who aren't familiar with Stoicism, Neoplatonism, and some of the Eastern philosophies, however I intend to sever as far as I can, the soul from the body. Plotinus calls this a "disengagement". Only by disengaging the soul from the body, can we ever hope to discover what and who we truly are. Neoplatonism was of the thought that the goal of man is to return home the Divine part of him (the soul) to the Divine (God). I'm in agreement. How can we do this though?

Well, the first step, is to extirpate the passions, thereby freeing the mind to contemplate higher things. By becoming "passionless" (not the same as void of emotion) the disengagement should occur, and then by all accounts from those who've taken this heroic path; the soul shines with a light and clarity, which us who are stuck in this quagmire of matter, can only dream of. Perhaps then, we'll be able to return home, by experiencing the mystical reunion of our soul with the Divine.

So, what's a small step I can take towards this monumental goal? Well, let's break the back of my bodily desire for food, by giving the body only what it needs, and not what it wants, and occasionally even abstaining completely.


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## SwtSurrender

Diogenes1982 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> First post here on this forum, although I've visited a few times before. I thought I'd share what I'm doing and planning to do, in order to try to alleviate or lessen some of my social anxiety.
> 
> About a year ago I got into ancient Greek philosophy, and it's reassuring to read that people 2000 years ago had the same hang-ups as they do now. It's pretty obvious that CBT's shame attacking was based on some of the techniques these philosophers used themselves, and on their pupils to overcome the fear of being disapproved upon. So with their cue, I've just started doing it myself. It's worth noting though, that I'd first intended to do this 10 months ago, but I found many reasons not to! First step is the hardest in anything like this I think.
> 
> I've done it for 2 days, but I plan to do it for 7, then see if I feel any different; although I can already sense small changes now. My first day I wasn't sure what I was going to do, or where, however I knew I had to buy some milk for later. So, bought a litre of milk and got back in my car. I tried to get out of going through with it AGAIN, but this time said no to the little voice. Anyway, parked up in a sidestreet, and started walking up a busy local road pretending the milk was a dumbbell, doing bicep extensions - facial expressisons to match. This got some double takes from drivers. Did that for a while, then decided I needed to be more obvious, so I carried the milk on my head like those African women carry things! This got much more of a response, some laughed, others gave bemused looks, and others just stared. I also balanced it on my head with no hands while standing still waiting for cars to go by, it felt good!
> 
> On my second day I packed a few items and drove to a village near me. I parked up, took off my top and put on a dressing gown, shades, and a red bandanna. I then walked through the village saying morning to people (it was evening) while monitoring their reactions. This outfit got some very good reactions, laughter, bemusement and even a bit of sympathy i think! I decided to up the ante by doing some stretching and press-ups against the wall, randomly sprinting alongside some cars, and dancing on the pavement - good reactions from the public again, as in; they were laughing at a "fool".
> 
> Third day today, not sure what I'll do yet, but I'll give you an update how it goes and ends! I can't say if this is going to work or not, but I'm willing to try. That's all for now....


Reminds me of the movie Patch Adams, when robin williams upsidedown and the little old lady noticed him ahahaah.


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## InternalConflict

Hi Diogenes,

I've been following this thread, enjoying your shame-attacking exercises. You actually inspired me to do some of my own, not sure if it really made any difference, but I only did it once. 

I have a couple of questions for you.

How is you general level of anxiety now, do you find that shame attacking has significantly changed your life?

and..

How do you you reconclile your belief that reason and rationality are the most important things, with your irrational belief in god?

Thanks


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## Diogenes1982

InternalConflict said:


> Hi Diogenes,
> 
> I've been following this thread, enjoying your shame-attacking exercises. You actually inspired me to do some of my own, not sure if it really made any difference, but I only did it once.
> 
> I have a couple of questions for you.
> 
> How is you general level of anxiety now, do you find that shame attacking has significantly changed your life?
> 
> and..
> 
> How do you you reconclile your belief that reason and rationality are the most important things, with your irrational belief in god?
> 
> Thanks


I'm glad it's given you some food for thought.

Overall, shame attacking helped me take the first step towards correcting some very negative and incorrect value judgements I held towards humanity. It didn't cure my anxiety, but it took enough of an edge off it to enable me to get more involved in social settings, and further weaken my previous unhealthy mindset.

Well, it's you describing a belief in God as irrational, not me. In fact I think it's more irrational to think there isn't a God/Absolute. Anyway, without getting into the nitty-gritty of it all, I founded my beliefs based on reason, so there was never anything to reconcile.


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## InternalConflict

Diogenes1982 said:


> I'm glad it's given you some food for thought.
> 
> Overall, shame attacking helped me take the first step towards correcting some very negative and incorrect value judgements I held towards humanity. It didn't cure my anxiety, but it took enough of an edge off it to enable me to get more involved in social settings, and further weaken my previous unhealthy mindset.
> 
> Well, it's you describing a belief in God as irrational, not me. In fact I think it's more irrational to think there isn't a God/Absolute. Anyway, without getting into the nitty-gritty of it all, I founded my beliefs based on reason, so there was never anything to reconcile.


I have become a bit of a misanthropist over recent years, it's encouraging to hear that you have overcome this. Hopefully, if i keep pushing myself maybe I can change some of my negative beliefs, maybe not.

I don't want to derail your thread but as you did move on to talking about philosophy I do find it difficult to understand how not believing in god is irrational. To be reasoned and rational is to only accept facts based on emperical evidence i.e using the scientific method. There has never been any evidence of a god, and there still isn't any.


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## Diogenes1982

InternalConflict said:


> I don't want to derail your thread but as you did move on to talking about philosophy I do find it difficult to understand how not believing in god is irrational. To be reasoned and rational is to only accept facts based on emperical evidence i.e using the scientific method. There has never been any evidence of a god, and there still isn't any.


Well, if we use your definition of reason, then we must also say that love doesn't exist. Not only love - also kindness, courage, honour, justice, temperance; the existence of which, have still not been proven using the "scientific method".


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## InternalConflict

Diogenes1982 said:


> Well, if we use your definition of reason, then we must also say that love doesn't exist. Not only love - also kindness, courage, honour, justice, temperance; the existence of which, have still not been proven using the "scientific method".


I don't really understand this. We observe acts of love, kindness, courage etc all the time. Different emotional states in the brain can be measured with MRI - e.g a depressed brain looks very different to a non-depressed brain. We can also postulate why these emotions exist from an evolutionary perspective.

At what point do these emotions become proven using the scientific method?

The theory of evolution is never fully proven, but it is widely accepted as fact, and the best model of our past because that is what the evidence suggests, and nothing has ever contradicted it.


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## Diogenes1982

InternalConflict said:


> I don't really understand this. We observe acts of love, kindness, courage etc all the time. Different emotional states in the brain can be measured with MRI - e.g a depressed brain looks very different to a non-depressed brain. We can also postulate why these emotions exist from an evolutionary perspective.
> 
> At what point do these emotions become proven using the scientific method?
> 
> The theory of evolution is never fully proven, but it is widely accepted as fact, and the best model of our past because that is what the evidence suggests, and nothing has ever contradicted it.


What I'm saying is; you're never going to prove the existence of God using the scientific method, because if God exists (as is my belief from my own deductions), he'll be completely transcendent and not of this sensory world. Does another realm exist? I believe so, and I have my reasons for thinking this. More than that, and we're dangerously approaching the Dawkins vs God debate, which has been done ad nauseam for decades.


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## InternalConflict

Diogenes1982 said:


> What I'm saying is; you're never going to prove the existence of God using the scientific method, because if God exists (as is my belief from my own deductions), he'll be completely transcendent and not of this sensory world. Does another realm exist? I believe so, and I have my reasons for thinking this. More than that, and we're dangerously approaching the Dawkins vs God debate, which has been done ad nauseam for decades.


I don't believe anyone is trying to prove that god exists using the scientfic method - that would be impossible, especially if he only exists in some other realm. But science trys to explain the real world around us and draws conclusions that don't require the need for a God anymore.

What I'm arguing is that your belief in god (and of course your completely entitled to your own beliefs) is irrational, it is not based on reason.

I'd like to know what your deductions are though.


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## Diogenes1982

InternalConflict said:


> Diogenes1982 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I'm saying is; you're never going to prove the existence of God using the scientific method, because if God exists (as is my belief from my own deductions), he'll be completely transcendent and not of this sensory world. Does another realm exist? I believe so, and I have my reasons for thinking this. More than that, and we're dangerously approaching the Dawkins vs God debate, which has been done ad nauseam for decades.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe anyone is trying to prove that god exists using the scientfic method - that would be impossible, especially if he only exists in some other realm. But science trys to explain the real world around us and draws conclusions that don't require the need for a God anymore.
> 
> What I'm arguing is that your belief in god (and of course your completely entitled to your own beliefs) is irrational, it is not based on reason.
> 
> I'd like to know what your deductions are though.
Click to expand...

Well, it seems to me that we should be careful calling someone's belief in an Absolute as irrational (even if you're using this term from a purely scientific angle), especially when many infinitely greater minds than mine have "reasoned" that the odds favour a first cause. I'm sure Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Einstein and Hawkings, would be most puzzled to hear of themselves described as irrational.


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## InternalConflict

Diogenes1982 said:


> Well, it seems to me that we should be careful calling someone's belief in an Absolute as irrational (even if you're using this term from a purely scientific angle), especially when many infinitely greater minds than mine have "reasoned" that the odds favour a first cause. I'm sure Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Einstein and Hawkings, would be most puzzled to hear of themselves described as irrational.


I wasn't aware that Aristotle, Einstein and Hawkings believed in God - if that's what you are saying. I'd still like to hear about your deductions.


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## Diogenes1982




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## Diogenes1982

*Incompleteness from the sensory world*

Looking around, at others and myself; everyone's searching for something - material riches, influential corporate positions, love, glory of an achieved feat to be remembered, and many others too numerous to mention. It seems to me, that we all believe we'll be content and satisfied on attaining the object of our desire, however we all know, or should, that this isn't the reality.

Wherever we turn our attention to, if someone's reached their goal, their behaviour after leads us to conclude the achievement or attainment of said goal was somewhat anti-climatic. Think on the sportsperson who wins all the titles on offer, but continues trying to win the very same titles they've already won countless times. Or, how about the tycoon worth £200m but wants £300m, and is sure to want £400m once he's got £300. What about finding "true love" - how long does that feeling of bliss last? Most seem to admit that those initial feelings of intense love morph into something different with time, hopefully still positive if they manage to stay together.

So, summing up - from the evidence in front of us, it would appear that these desires for objects of this sensory world will not give us any lasting fulfillment or true joy. We can all relate to this in one degree or another. In that case then, we need to look elsewhere...


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## Diogenes1982




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## Diogenes1982

*Operating from a higher plane*

Often I wonder how it'll ever be possible to control my passions so that I can achieve the inner peace required to live how I'm meant to live, and to accomplish the things I'm here for. All physical desires push and pull me away from the cause; they unsettle the soul through a constant draw towards the deceptively destructive - like the moth to the flame.

Continually monitoring myself for encroachments towards vice is exhausting, but necessary at times. There's definitely a tension of spirit needed in order not to lapse into bad habits, however, there's a much simpler, although not easier, way to achieve the same discipline and a greater clarity of mind. There's a difficulty in trying to describe this "method", because it's not something one can lay their hands on, so to speak, and also you need a degree of inner quietude already. Somewhat of a catch 22!

Anyway, enough of the riddles. What I'm trying to say is this; if we focus our attention on, and lead from the morally highest part of ourselves - that part that knows with certainty what's right and wrong, the part of ourselves that desires good above all else, and has everyone's best interests truly at heart, then the task of controlling all those destructive passions becomes a whole lot easier. But, when we're led by the lower, it takes a lot of effort and searching to find the higher again. So, the thing to do, must be to remain on that higher plane, and never come down.


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## Riri11

hey glad it's working for you bud. id love to try something that crazy one day "go topless maybe" :lol


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## Diogenes1982

Riri11 said:


> hey glad it's working for you bud. id love to try something that crazy one day "go topless maybe" :lol


Steady on there! I know you're probably joking, but just in case you're not, never put yourself at risk of weirdos or the law. I think you can find something a little less personally "exposing"


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## Riri11

Diogenes1982 said:


> Steady on there! I know you're probably joking, but just in case you're not, never put yourself at risk of weirdos or the law. I think you can find something a little less personally "exposing"


It's legal here 
Plus
Boobs wanna be free
I'm seriously going to do this


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## Diogenes1982

I really wouldn't advise this lol.


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## Noca

Riri11 said:


> It's legal here
> Plus
> Boobs wanna be free
> I'm seriously going to do this


Set them boobies free!


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## Diogenes1982




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## Diogenes1982

*Passionless but all loving*

I remember first reading the stoic's beliefs on becoming passionless, and my subsequent thoughts; it seemed an inhuman and alien thing to do. Then I realised the implications of what it means to be passionless - the thought truly scared me. But now, the more I consider it, the more I think it's the way to go; it's just I'm either not strong enough, or I don't have the sufficient strength of reasoning to accomplish this, or both. Anyway, God loves a trier, allegedly.

When I've caught a glimpse of a passionless existence, the feeling of calm and love (for life and humankind) at that moment puts the passions into their rightful and inferior place. In fact, all passion does, as far as I can see, is distract us from living as what we truly are, which in my belief; is pure loving beings. Literally, it could be all about love, and nothing else matters. How far you decide to take these feelings of love depends on your views. The materialists will stop at mankind and nature, the spiritualists will stop at God. Writing this now on my own, it's as clear as day to me, but I know when I go to interact with the outside world, these inner feelings of love will be harder to keep hold of. I'll try though.


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## Diogenes1982

Pretty drunk now in all honesty, although still just about on the right side of the line. The last few days I've been struggling with the usual feelings that all guys and girls (to a lesser extreme measure) get - sexual desire. 

When I go through a phase like this, my attention unwittingly turns to serving my own selfish wishes, and the feelings of love and compassion for humanity dissipate into the background until the passions have been extinguished again. By tolerating these destructive passionate thoughts and following actions, I become transported from a place of calm and serenity to somewhere quite the opposite - an uneasy and anxious mindset where I'm on edge looking to satisfy the insatiable - the body. The bottom line is; the quenching of these carnal desires never exceeds or even gets close to equaling, in well-being terms; the spiritual purity, the guilt free conscience, and love for humankind, which I feel when I'm living according to my higher soul self; that self which isn't servant to the body... the antithesis in fact - it's master.


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## Diogenes1982




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## Diogenes1982

It feels like we're born with the desire to love and to be loved, however the problem is; the places we search for it never seem to yield what we're truly looking for.

I've touched on this before - the Neoplatonists believed the love of this world only represents an a image of the true love, the only real love, which we're all searching for; that's the love from and with The One (God). Plato and Plotinus believed that the love in this world paved the way for the willing philosopher to find the true source of love in the other realm, and the mystical experience, which these sages - as well as more modern philosophers like Pierre Grimes had, was the proof of this reunification with the all loving divine.

It appears that for everything in this cosmos, temporal as it is, there should be a permanent and eternal model which this universe is based upon (A huge doff of the hat to Plotinus). Even for the strongest of marriages in this world, the feelings of bliss and rapturous love seem to only last for a certain number of years, before a different kind of love and respect holds the couple together, leading us to presuppose that this isn't the absolute end of our soul's desires.

So, imagine if we were able to reunite with what's the quest of our love; an eternity spent giving and receiving love from the source of everything - sounds just about bearable doesn't it!?


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## Diogenes1982

*More Neoplatonism*

As a layman who finds ancient and old philosophy interesting; there's a thought provoking concept Neoplatonism espouses on regarding (wo)man's birth and re-birth.

In so far as I've understood it; everything in this cosmos, us and our thoughts and feelings included, has come from one source, which they aptly call; The One. Their beliefs on this are a bit tricky to explain, as I'm still trying to get my head around their philosophy, so I don't want to do them too much injustice. However with the help of a couple of crude analogies: Ultimately, like the longest drawn line starts with a dot, or like the largest number imaginable starts from - and wouldn't be possible without the number "1", so reality and nature's existence wouldn't be possible without The One.

It's impossible to speak about The One, because as humans who deal with the sensory world, we have no way to conceptualise what The One could be. But what we must accept; is that The One is the principle of all principles, the source of all existence, _and the key point for what I'm making here_; *the unity of all unities*.

Wherever we look, we see everything is a unity. Our bodies are a unity, cells are a unity, the solar system is a unity, even your sports team is a unity. But, whenever this unity is broken, the whole ceases to operate correctly..this could give us a clue about something. The Neoplatonists certainly believed so; they thought that once man brought all his beliefs, thoughts and actions into a unity of goodness, he would then be living how man should, and as a result experience ultimate reality and beauty, having attained likeness to The One.


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## Entrensik

Im really curious as to how this affected your confidence because ive always been a clown and i could easily do a ton of stupid **** but it doesnt really improve my confidence. I dont think it would help me because if i know i look like a clown then im expecting negative reactions, the hard part is coping with negative reactions when your just being yourself.


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## Diogenes1982

Shame attacking crucially restored my faith in the average person being generally a "good egg". Yes, there were a couple of negative reactions out of literally hundreds of instances, however we all know there are genuine fools out there, but fools due to their ignorance. They're probably alright really. 

Anyway, it didn't cure me, but like I've said on here before, it took enough of an edge off my anxiety to get involved in other social settings, as well as reminding me that a huge majority of people are very friendly. 

Of course since then, it's no surprise to me now why 80/90% were so kind, but this is due to my belief that we all have a divine spark within, which is pure goodness and beauty; it's just not always visible under the layers of attachments we accumulate here.


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## Diogenes1982




----------



## Diogenes1982

*Socrates and his statue*

Apparently, Socrates once carved a beautiful statue from stone, and when people complimented him on his work, he modestly, and in typical Socrates fashion, gave all credit to the Gods. He then went on to explain that he hadn't created the beauty of the statue; it had always been there in the lump of stone...all he did was remove the parts of the stone, which weren't meant to be there, and what he was left with was beauty.

Whether this actually happened is unknown, however the allegorical meaning is clear. Beauty isn't something created by man; it has always and will always exist in everything touched by reality. Therefore, if we wish to become beautiful ourselves, maybe the Socrates statue analogy can give us some clues. If beauty is anterior to mind and existence, and it resides in us already, all we need to do is to do what Socrates did; release beauty.

Plotinus says it best - a great passage posted on this thread already...

_"Withdraw into yourself and look. And if you do not find yourself beautiful yet, act as does the creator of a statue that is to be made beautiful: he cuts away here, he smoothes there, he makes this line lighter, this other purer, until a lovely face has grown upon his work. So do you also: cut away all that is excessive, straighten all that is crooked, bring light to all that is overcast, labour to make all one glow of beauty and never cease chiselling your statue, until there shall shine out on you from it the godlike splendour of virtue, until you shall see the perfect goodness surely established in the stainless shrine."_


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## Diogenes1982

For many years, even as a boy, I've always had feelings about being in some place in my future or perhaps past, where I'm completely content, and even in some kind of bliss. There are certain things that trigger off these moments of longing or memory, however I've never been able to actually picture what or where I'm imagining; it's like a vision, but without seeing - just a strange feeling within of being fully satisfied and joyous at a home, I think. 

I used to put it down to my own naivety of imagining some kind of perfect life I was going to live; but as I've got older Ive realised nothing material, or perhaps even mortal, is going to get me to this ineffable "place". Its something I've never been able to resolve, however this very ineffability, seems to me to point to a world away from the realm of sense.


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## Diogenes1982

I've been meaning to post for a while, but my thoughts aren't really in an organised manner. Anyway, I'll try and put a few of them down, although it may be a bit disjointed.

It seems that every near death experience-er, once separated from the body, feels that the true reality is; we're all connected and one. Countless philosophers have also said the same. This bodily life where we believe we're separated is really just a seemingly real, but temporal illusion. So, if we are all truly one, how does this make us feel about others? 
Maybe believing this potential reality could help break down our social anxiety, because there's nothing to fear if I'm you, you're me, and we're all just speaking to our self. I've tried this mindset when mixing with others (really myself), and I can testify it does dampen or even eradicate anxiety. Why does it work? Well, maybe because it is the true reality. Also, it feels right within my being to think this way, so maybe that's an innate clue this mindset should be fostered.

Another thing that feels absolutely right; completely looking past the body and seeing the character of someone, listening to their words and seeing the human soul for what it is, and paying minimal attention to appearance. We all know ideally we should do this, but how many of us honestly do it? Living in a sensory based world, as sense experiencing beings, we find it difficult to deal with things we can't touch or see with our eyes. But, if we can look past the bodily, and see the real person behind the bodily image, we're getting much closer to reality. 
Why do I think and know this? Logically speaking, we should focus on the immortal part of us, which is our soul/consciousness, and not on the body, which ultimately expires. Everything bodily and made out of matter is temporal and in constant flux, but it seems highly probable to me that our soul continues onto another state, therefore if this is correct, we need to put all our attention into having a healthy soul, in order that we improve this part of ourselves which carries on. Also again, there's an innate feeling that's telling me I'm right. In fact, just after having the idea to write about this, I felt a huge surge and rush from within. What else is this other than my soul responding to truth?

That's it for now, there's more but it's getting late here. I'll continue this tomorrow probably.


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## Diogenes1982




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## Diogenes1982

If we're all one, which I believe we are, then any negative thoughts about anyone is literally like having negative thoughts about yourself. We all know what happens when we continually and unecessarily indulge in injurious self-talk; we lose all confidence and this is reflected in our behaviour. So if we think anything bad about others, does this mean we're equally anxious as if we were berating ourselves? Possibly...

This may sound a tad strange, but I've noticed sometimes I feel guilty when I'm about to engage in social interaction, but I could never pinpoint why this was. I wondered if it was due to leading a less than pure life, i.e having a guilty conscience for certain vices, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm now wondering if it's due to letting negative thoughts about others go unchallenged, which then gain a foothold in the mind. Theses aren't malicious thoughts by any means, but still, at times I wouldn't want them broadcast.

So, the chain of events could go like this:

Negative thoughts about others > harm done to self > feelings of guilt > anxious to socialise

Although we all have individually different souls, all our souls come from the same source, and there's likely no separation from source to us, even though our bodily segregation makes us feel otherwise. Therefore, like we shouldn't think bad things about ourselves in order not to inflict damage to our own being, likewise we shouldn't think bad things about others, as they're part of us, and we're part of them. 
How do you quantify what's "bad"? An easy way is to say that any thought, which you're not comfortable with being openly viewed by all who know you, is a thought that you shouldn't be having. In other words, it's a thought that's injurious to others and/or yourself.

I've been trying to enforce this practice on and off for a while, however to maintain the philosophical equilibrium required to monitor and correct your thinking patterns, you need to be focused on improving yourself as the number one priority for your existence here. It doesn't leave a lot of time for other less noble activities, which most of us inevitably become immersed in and dominated by.
However, when I've managed to perform the above, it feels like a huge weight has been lifted off me. There's a lightness to my soul, and even a little feeling of joy; so it's for these reasons that I believe this is a right road to pursue.


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## Johnson Baller

Man...this thread is filled with such inspiration and intelligence - I should be studying for a social psychology exam I have in 9 hours but I couldn't help but peruse a lot of your commentary and it's quite refreshing! One of my best friends is an Ancient Civilizations major, and he talks to me a lot about Greek/Roman philosophers and figures, and it's definitely impacted my perceptions in a positive way. Shoutouts to the ancients, they knew what was up. Also, thank you for introducing me to Synkro - I can listen to that melodic/ambient genre for hours!


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## Diogenes1982

Johnson Baller said:


> Man...this thread is filled with such inspiration and intelligence - I should be studying for a social psychology exam I have in 9 hours but I couldn't help but peruse a lot of your commentary and it's quite refreshing! One of my best friends is an Ancient Civilizations major, and he talks to me a lot about Greek/Roman philosophers and figures, and it's definitely impacted my perceptions in a positive way. Shoutouts to the ancients, they knew what was up. Also, thank you for introducing me to Synkro - I can listen to that melodic/ambient genre for hours!


Thanks for your comments. The ancient philosophers have stood the test of time, and the way they write resonates with the soul. This is probably due to the irresistible combination of logic and beauty throughout their works.

Glad to hear you've been enjoying the music.

All the best.


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## Diogenes1982

*Want to improve? Stop trying to improve...*

I listened to a lecture by Manly Hall the other day, and he made an interesting comment, which I empathised with, about trying to stop certain destructive behaviours.

The long and short of it is this; if we wish to stop certain bad actions, thoughts and alike, we shouldn't necessarily focus on the ceasing of the said bad actions - instead we should train ourselves to admire the admirable; such as philosophy, religion, the arts, fairly played competitions, acquired honest skills through dedication, and man working in harmony with animals. In other words, virtuous behaviour and intelligence. This naturally corrective way achieves our desire's end by appreciating the noble and beautiful things in life, and as a result, we outgrow the ignoble. Those things that we used to do and wanted to stop doing, we now view as beneath ourselves, and this is how we leave vice behind.


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## Diogenes1982

*Which way you look is where your desires will be*






As someone who's trying with mixed success to subdue "unhealthy" passions; I've found that wherever I focus my attention, is where I ultimately end up. 
Often without fully realising, my mind will be imagining some scenario, perhaps something lustful, fearful or vengeful, which as a result carries me off unwittingly into doing something I really didn't want to do when I had equilibrium. Then afterwards, I wonder to myself; now how did that happen, and why did I let it happen?

Prior to engaging in the destructive action, it feels like the mind leads the self away to somewhere firstly relatively harmless; then once the mind gets you accustomed to that "place", it takes you a little further. Each time the place you immaterially inhabit becomes progressively darker and grubbier. If you let it lead you past the third or fourth step, you need the inner strength worthy of a sage to retrace your journey and return to the psychological and spiritual centre. However, the likelihood is, if you humour this self-sabotaging journey by an ever-so-convincing mind; even for a short while, you'll find yourself capitulating to the very actions you were so adamant you wouldn't commit only half an hour ago.

What's to be done then? Notice the pattern and when you realise you know the undesirable endgame scenario, change mental course immediately. Easier said than done of course, but it's possible to recognise the chain of events and stop them. Literally, as soon as you're aware of where those initial thoughts lead to, you have to turn around right then, otherwise you'll get swept out to the sea of passions, and perversely during, you'll think it's what you really wanted anyway. It's only after your vice exhausts itself that you experience that moment of clarity, and you ask yourself how you ended up here again.

To give a Neoplatonic slant on this; as souls "in" bodies we straddle the physical sensory world, and the intelligible realm. It's accepted by most sane individuals that we should aspire to lead by the highest part of ourselves, which is the reasoning, loving and intellectual side of our nature. This is not the sensory and corporeal part of us, therefore this higher part of our soul must really reside in the immaterial intelligible realm. However, it's still up to us where we look...do we look down at the body and the earth, or do we look up at the stars and through them to the heavens - where our true home is found..?

Wherever we direct our gaze is the type of life we live.


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## Diogenes1982

Well, happy new year to all. It's been a while since I've done any updates on here, but that's not because everything is going swimmingly; the opposite at times in fact, although I'm convinced the answers are there to be had.

Here's a little thought I've been having...are all our problems due to thinking that there's no God? Is it literally that glaringly obvious?

If we were to fully accept and believe that there's a source of existence, but not only that; this first cause is unconditionally loving of all that it begets, and that no harm can come to any of "his children", how would we feel?

Personally, I can approach the above, but I'm not there yet. I'm mostly convinced that I'm not my body, and I'm very open to the possibility of reincarnation. 

A quick thought I'll leave you with, because it's getting late here: Imagine your skin was transparent and you were looking in the mirror at your muscles, tendons, organs and bones - would you still say this was you? If not, I agree with you. Therefore, with this in mind, and the alienness of seeing what's under the great concealment of the skin; the real us might not actually be our body, instead, we could be what gives life to our body. Is it just me who thinks intestines are for everyone else??? Lol. Ludicrous to say I know, but we really have no idea what's going on inside.


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## Diogenes1982

For the last month I've been very up and down with regard to social anxiety and the side effects of feeling depressed, due to realising I'm not where I need to be.

I've had a lot of nervous energy, which on some days I've been able to channel to a very heightened alertness and ability to live in the present. But on other days this nervous energy, when not channeled usefully, has made me feel extremely on edge.

Yesterday's post about a lack of faith in God being the root of all our psychological problems; I actually do believe is worth considering. Although I'm not expecting a resounding agreement on that one.

Bringing it back to some ground we can all share...today after having exhausted many techniques and ways of thinking, in an attempt to calm my anxiety, which flared up again this last month; I decided to do two things, which had a very settling effect over the space of an hour, and I now feel "normal" again.

So, what are these two things? Firstly and paradoxically, cease all self-analysis and analysis of other people. Just let it go out of your mind, don't fight it, just let it go. Secondly, try and live in the moment in a very relaxed manner...turn off all the self-talk and just absorb the moment - be carried away by it peacefully. There's actually a third thing you're doing by living peacefully in the moment; you're ceasing most unhelpful judgements, usually about ourselves and others if we've got SA. 

Now, by doing these things above, but mainly the stopping of continual self-evaluation, I've been able to return to my real self in the company of others. This is a relief, as strangely it's felt like I've had a bit of an identity crisis at times these last few weeks.

Of course it's not ideal doing yet another introspection now, however I felt I needed to share this for anyone who might feel on the edge and in the midst of an anxiety fueled identity crisis. So, drop the self-analysis and critique of others, and let the present moment carry you off like you're in an oar-less boat on a steady moving river. It's hard to describe the immaterial, but that's my best shot.

This isn't to say self-evaluation is discarded, however there needs to be a limit on how much is done, and when. Obsess too much over analysing our behaviour, and we become nervous wrecks unsure of who we really are.


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## Diogenes1982

Hello brothers and sisters, been a while....hope you're all well :smile2:

A thought;

We're on a living piece of rock and earth with it's own atmosphere, hurtling around the sun at 67,000 miles per hour, while spinning on an axis at 1,000 mph. We haven't discovered any signs of life in allegedly 100,000 of the nearest galaxies, which are thousands of light years away. At what point do we say to ourselves, "hang on a minute, this isn't an accident that the physical set of our circumstances are so mind-blowing; there's a reason we're travelling at unimaginable speeds throughout space while being seemingly still, and unable to find life anywhere else in the universe..."

My take on it is this...these surface appearances of the cosmos, which seem so despairingly desolate, hopeless, inhuman and unfathomable, are meant to be exactly what they pertain to be from a sense perspective; that we've been orphaned here in space. However, maybe there's a purpose to this strange existence of the human race alone in a universe with the nothingness of matter surrounding us light years in all directions. 
This exact barrenness of love and the lack of a human heart in the infinite impersonal cosmos, is what's needed for the searching soul to look inward instead of outward, to realise the physical realm doesn't lead to anywhere lastingly meaningful, that we're meant to be here for each other emotionally, and perhaps to eventually find our way back to our true spiritual home.


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## Diogenes1982

I'm trying to put into words something abstract I feel, but I don't know what it is. It's like a grasping of the soul after hearing some music, reminiscing about past times, or thinking about future times. However, the grasping isn't for the specific thing I'm thinking about; it's for some unknown, which there's a trace of in the said music, memory or experience. It's also somewhat pleasantly painful and melancholic, and as soon as I try to apply any rational thought to what it is; the feeling goes. That's about as good as I can do.


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## Diogenes1982

*Knowing our true worth*






At what point will we realise how special each one of us is? Life is so scarce in the searchable universe; 100,000 of the nearest galaxies and still no sign past or present of the simplest form of life, let alone a reasoning, self-aware, emotion-experiencing form. Yet here we are on this little planet of ours, and for the most part, we're completely unaware of our privileged and unique position within the cosmos.

Even if you believe this is all by accident and there's no higher intelligence or God, it's still possible to appreciate the lofty human place in the universe. But as it is, I do believe there's a God, although the form of which is completely beyond our comprehension.

It's very difficult not to accept the premise that the universe is one giant living being. Also, how can we not be part of this one when we literally sprung out from the earth, with our bodies eventually returning to the same earth to continue the cycle. So, what's our place in all of this? Well, we're like the rare and beautiful blossoms of the universe; flowering in the spring and summer of time, to rest in the autumn and winter, and to come back to life again the following season.

All the beauty of the universe is to be released through mankind; this is how special we are.


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## Diogenes1982

Last week I had a very interesting experience, where for an hour or so I felt a huge amount of love for the universe, all beings in it, and for the ultimate source of everything, which has to be God. It's extremely difficult to describe, however I feel it's just a glimpse behind the curtain of what's possible when we align ourselves with universal reason.

I've felt this way for brief periods of time in the past, and they always occur after making a deep commitment to subdue all ego and bodily self-interest, by truly wanting the best for everyone. Of course all negative thoughts about yourself and others also have to stop, and the mind needs calm in order to let the soul's waters be still, so that any reflection from a higher reality can be accurately received and mirrored in ourselves. Love all with the heart and the soul, let all the criticism and hate go, and rise above the bodily urges - these only take you further away from that special alignment. In other words, live Godlike.


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## himawari

Hello Diogenes, I just joined SAS today after coming to the conclusion that I may have slight SA. Anyway, I was only lurking on forums and stumbled onto yours and I'm glad I did. I haven't read everything on here but from what I have read I do feel slightly better about reading your stories of shame attacks and at times it made me smile. It's nice to know that other human beings such as yourself exists. I'm also pleased with your philosophical side as well.

I've been kind of drifting in and out of philosophy for awhile. Would still consider myself to be a beginner at it. It all started when I read "Sophie's World" by Jostein Gaarder last summer. After that I started questioning a lot of my beliefs and wondered how much of what I know is true or not? Well, actually that question was asked by a professor of mine a couple of years ago. He went around the class and asked everyone, "How much of what you know do you believe to be true?" I couldn't give a sure answer and it has bothered me on and off in the recesses of my mind for a long time. 

I considered myself to be Christian but I wanted to have sound reasons as to why I was. Anyway, I'm at the point now where I feel like I have lost God because of all of the information I have exposed myself to. (Or because I'm a sinner.) Not going to lie, I feel fear at this loss. I even think sometimes, "Maybe there really isn't a God." I feel less spiritual and more of the physical world now and it bothers me. Yet everyday I am still wondering about God. 

I suppose I started writing all this because there was a thought you wrote that took hold: "Yesterday's post about a lack of faith in God being the root of all our psychological problems; I actually do believe is worth considering. Although I'm not expecting a resounding agreement on that one."

Although what you said was a pondering and not fact, I couldn't help but think in terms of my purpose everyday. Since my creeping lack of faith has started to come up, I've felt somewhat lost. Maybe this will sound shallow to some but I had a resolute feeling that no matter how mediocre some of the tasks I had to do, they all had purpose in the end if God's real. For a while now I have a hard time going after the things I want to do or become a better person. However, even when I was a Christian I felt that way too but now I just have this heaviness more than ever inside me - And hate and anger at times too.

I feel that I have become an "adult" of the world if that makes any sense. This quote might sum it up: 1 John 2:15-17 ESV 
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever."

What do you think is the wisest decision? Should I consider devoting myself to studying until I feel that I can find The Truth again?


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## Diogenes1982

Hello, sorry for the very late reply! I haven't been able to get into my emails lately, so I've missed all notifications for this site. Also, I haven't been too active on here, as you can tell from my lack of posts! 

I was actually just off to bed, so will have to get back to your post tomorrow, as it's quite in depth and I'd like to give it some proper attention and thought.

Until tomorrow then...


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## Diogenes1982

himawari said:


> Hello Diogenes, I just joined SAS today after coming to the conclusion that I may have slight SA. Anyway, I was only lurking on forums and stumbled onto yours and I'm glad I did. I haven't read everything on here but from what I have read I do feel slightly better about reading your stories of shame attacks and at times it made me smile. It's nice to know that other human beings such as yourself exists. I'm also pleased with your philosophical side as well.
> 
> I've been kind of drifting in and out of philosophy for awhile. Would still consider myself to be a beginner at it. It all started when I read "Sophie's World" by Jostein Gaarder last summer. After that I started questioning a lot of my beliefs and wondered how much of what I know is true or not? Well, actually that question was asked by a professor of mine a couple of years ago. He went around the class and asked everyone, "How much of what you know do you believe to be true?" I couldn't give a sure answer and it has bothered me on and off in the recesses of my mind for a long time.
> 
> I considered myself to be Christian but I wanted to have sound reasons as to why I was. Anyway, I'm at the point now where I feel like I have lost God because of all of the information I have exposed myself to. (Or because I'm a sinner.) Not going to lie, I feel fear at this loss. I even think sometimes, "Maybe there really isn't a God." I feel less spiritual and more of the physical world now and it bothers me. Yet everyday I am still wondering about God.
> 
> I suppose I started writing all this because there was a thought you wrote that took hold: "Yesterday's post about a lack of faith in God being the root of all our psychological problems; I actually do believe is worth considering. Although I'm not expecting a resounding agreement on that one."
> 
> Although what you said was a pondering and not fact, I couldn't help but think in terms of my purpose everyday. Since my creeping lack of faith has started to come up, I've felt somewhat lost. Maybe this will sound shallow to some but I had a resolute feeling that no matter how mediocre some of the tasks I had to do, they all had purpose in the end if God's real. For a while now I have a hard time going after the things I want to do or become a better person. However, even when I was a Christian I felt that way too but now I just have this heaviness more than ever inside me - And hate and anger at times too.
> 
> I feel that I have become an "adult" of the world if that makes any sense. This quote might sum it up: 1 John 2:15-17 ESV
> "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world-the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions-is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever."
> 
> What do you think is the wisest decision? Should I consider devoting myself to studying until I feel that I can find The Truth again?


Well, we all end up on here somehow and for some reason, but essentially, because we're all looking for answers. Anyway, I'm glad you stumbled upon my thread, and even more glad parts of it brought a smile to your face.

So, from what I've understood of your post; it seems like you're on this journey (like everyone) of trying to discover reality, which interestingly is what all honest religion is - just man's attempt to understand and get closer to reality. However, you've been somewhat bamboozled by teachings and writings up to this point, which has resulted in you losing touch with that innate feeling of a spiritual conviction, and you're now wondering whether the world of materialsim is all there is. The consequence of this, is that you've felt even more destablilsed and full of unhelpful passions. Correct me if I'm wrong...

I realise you asked for my advice, but I'm not sure whether giving that would help or hinder you. We're all different of course, and I really believe everyone finds their own path after many wrongs turns and dead ends - I'm still going down these erroneous routes on a daily basis. However, as cliche as this sounds, we all have our own path to find.

But, after taking all the above into account, and obviously ignoring what I said I shouldn't do (!), maybe I can share what I found assisted me in my little 10 step journey so far....read all you can on philosophy and religion that interests you, and you may find that your concious and subconscious mind turns over the findings of your readings over the weeks, months, and years following, and formulates certain theories about reality. If you read someone else's version of reality, and expect to be as self-assured as the writer in their own philosophy or religion, but without being able to feel what they feel; this will only end up in confusion and doubt of anything higher. This is "perhaps" what I feel has happened to yourself, because after reading much myself, I also felt lost with all the conflicting versions of philosophy and Godly suppositions. In my very limited experience of a search for something more than the material realm, the closest I've approached thus far is the innate feelings within my own soul of love for fellow man, connectedness to The Whole, and an appreciation of beauty. Now, that's not to say I haven't felt other things too, but maybe they're just creations of my own self-fulflilling consciousness.

Let your rational mind do the searching, and let your heart do the finding. Is this why we have both?


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## Diogenes1982

Hello world


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## Diogenes1982

I intend to start posting again, just been too busy and lazy of late.

Social anxiety, what is it? Maybe we need to define it better to try and tackle it better.

From a very simple angle, my anxiety is at it's worst when I have a heightened consciousness of myself in a social scenario. Maybe this is what we need to address for immediate relief...?


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## Woodoow

So you're still going on these...I have a lot of catching up to do, it seems.
Appreciate the Invisible Minds, what a tune.


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## SwtSurrender

A w e s o m e !


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## Diogenes1982

Woodoow said:


> So you're still going on these...I have a lot of catching up to do, it seems.
> Appreciate the Invisible Minds, what a tune.


Hi buddy, long time! Yeah still doing the occasional update, but want to get more frequent again with my posting. Should benefit me and maybe others too; those looking for answers.
Glad you liked the tune, it's quality.


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## SwtSurrender

Diogenes1982 said:


> I intend to start posting again, just been too busy and lazy of late.
> 
> Social anxiety, what is it? Maybe we need to define it better to try and tackle it better.
> 
> *From a very simple angle, my anxiety is at it's worst when I have a heightened consciousness of myself in a social scenario. Maybe this is what we need to address for immediate relief...?*


Yes, that's it exactly. That's why for me antidepressants take my mind off of me. Same with sleep deprivation, weed, or alcohol - same mechanism. You're ****ing drunk so you don't ****ing care! Other things become your main focus like getting with that girl.


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## Diogenes1982

SwtSurrender said:


> Diogenes1982 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I intend to start posting again, just been too busy and lazy of late.
> 
> Social anxiety, what is it? Maybe we need to define it better to try and tackle it better.
> 
> *From a very simple angle, my anxiety is at it's worst when I have a heightened consciousness of myself in a social scenario. Maybe this is what we need to address for immediate relief...?*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's it exactly. That's why for me antidepressants take my mind off of me. Same with sleep deprivation, weed, or alcohol - same mechanism. You're ****ing drunk so you don't ****ing care! Other things become your main focus like getting with that girl.
Click to expand...

Sure, I've tried some of them myself too, but of course they only last for a few hours max, and then the next day we feel even worse.

Essentially I've boiled down social anxiety to be an obsessive negative thought pattern about myself. Or even, just any thoughts about my behaviour while I'm speaking to others, is enough to make me hideously self conscious and nervous to speak.

Here's how a social occasion used to happen for me usually:
Pre-occasion: A forecast - mostly negative - of my behaviour in the social setting and past similar experiences. Then during the event; an analysis of all conversations and behaviour at the event, even during present conversations meaning I'd always be living in the past - this just carried on and on until the end of the occasion. And finally, a negative dissection after the event where I'd obsessively think about my words and actions, and almost watch myself in replay, highlighting all my 'worst' bits.

So from start to finish I just continually thought about myself, and it turned me into a nervous wreck before, during, and after.

Fleetingly I've felt the most liberated when I've purely lived in the moment of a conversation with a person or people, because there's no forecasted you or expected you, which you need to live up or down to. You live purely in the moment, focusing all thoughts on the external world, and just speak and do without analysing or censoring before. This takes courage though when you're used to filtering all your sentences before they leave your mouth, and all actions before doing them.

I think we need to get out of the habit of thinking about ourselves, and instead focus on the external world, particularly when we're in social settings. When you stop thinking about yourself, unsurprisingly self consciousness decreases, as does the pressure to 'perform'. And when you're not conscious of yourself, that's when you find out your true personality. This is the other interesting thing - by suspending all thoughts about yourself, your true personality flows out to meet the external world; you don't need to think about it or be the person you think you are, you just are that person.


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## MamaBearJ

I think you have a beautiful way of expressing yourself. I guess I've never thought deeply about my SA before, but what you've broken down resonates with me. Stop thinking about yourself in order to be your true self, love it.


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## Diogenes1982

I appreciate your comments, and you got exactly what I meant.


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## Diogenes1982

I’ve been reading Epictetus again of late, as I think his stoic philosophy has a lot to offer anxiety sufferers.

According to him, one of the main reasons for anyone to experience negative feelings in this life, is the incorrect use of impressions and appearances, which existence confronts us with on a daily basis. How we interpret events according to our beliefs will determine our state of mind; and this comes from realising what’s in our control, and what isn’t. I will expand much more on this in future posts, but I just wanted to give an outline before I recap on something that helped me today.

It appears to me, that much of my own anxiety and mental discomfort, does indeed come from wanting to control externals to conform to how I’d like things to happen, rather than wishing they happen as they happen. Therefore, when I decided to just withdraw into myself today and focus on my very small sphere of what’s actually in my control - in other words, my thoughts and intentions to act; my stress levels definitely decreased. I’ve been able to find a level of tranquility where I’m focusing not on externals (other people’s reactions, opinions and conversations, etc), but rather on my inner self and the limited amount of existence I’ve been assigned true control of. With regards to everything else, it’s nothing to do with me. Only my beliefs and my intentions to act are my own.


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## Diogenes1982

Previously I mentioned that a forgetfulness of self could be an answer to social anxiety, and I believe this still holds some validity. However, before that stage, I’m thinking there needs to be the correction of erroneous beliefs and damaging attitudes, with the necessary right reasoning and correct beliefs in their place. This is where philosophy comes in...


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## illbeatthis

What would these erroneous beliefs and damaging attitudes be? Wanting to correct them wouldn't get in the way of being "in the present moment"? This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

I strongly believe that what you say is correct, "anxiety and mental discomfort, does indeed come from wanting to control externals to conform to how I’d like things to happen, rather than wishing they happen as they happen", but I think being in the watch for these attitudes and beliefs while interacting is going to truncate our performance as much as the negative thought do, don't you think?


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## Diogenes1982

illbeatthis said:


> What would these erroneous beliefs and damaging attitudes be? Wanting to correct them wouldn't get in the way of being "in the present moment"? This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
> 
> I strongly believe that what you say is correct, "anxiety and mental discomfort, does indeed come from wanting to control externals to conform to how I'd like things to happen, rather than wishing they happen as they happen", but I think being in the watch for these attitudes and beliefs while interacting is going to truncate our performance as much as the negative thought do, don't you think?


I think an erroneous belief I have/had is the unconscious belief and desire to control what others think about me. This leads to saying things that aren't naturally coming from my true self, but rather my ego, which wants to manage opinion. Of course, there's no pleasing opinion, and it's completely out of our control anyway, therefore we shouldn't pay it any attention. So this would be something which needs correcting.

Yes I get what you're saying; if you're always analysing and monitoring yourself, you do miss out on the present moment. I'm trying to cultivate a mindset to have at all times, in and out of social interactions. I've definitely found during conversation, it's best for me to have a few simple guiding principles in mind, but also be ready to silence the mind in order to absorb the moment.

There's really no other way than to test the theories you have and see what works. One of my goals is to be able to let my true self flow out to meet the external environment without fear. But in order to achieve this; means a complete overhaul of the way I perceive and interact with my reality.


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## illbeatthis

Diogenes1982 said:


> I think an erroneous belief I have/had is the unconscious belief and desire to control what others think about me. This leads to saying things that aren't naturally coming from my true self, but rather my ego, which wants to manage opinion. Of course, there's no pleasing opinion, and it's completely out of our control anyway, therefore we shouldn't pay it any attention. So this would be something which needs correcting.
> 
> Yes I get what you're saying; if you're always analysing and monitoring yourself, you do miss out on the present moment. I'm trying to cultivate a mindset to have at all times, in and out of social interactions. I've definitely found during conversation, it's best for me to have a few simple guiding principles in mind, but also be ready to silence the mind in order to absorb the moment.
> 
> There's really no other way than to test the theories you have and see what works. One of my goals is to be able to let my true self flow out to meet the external environment without fear. But in order to achieve this; means a complete overhaul of the way I perceive and interact with my reality.


"Things that aren't naturally coming from my true self, but rather my ego" Exactly. That's why I believe that one of the ways to go is to be brutally honest, with yourself and with everybody. That way only the real you comes out, without having to process your words throught all those countless filters that we have developed. Of course, is easier said than done... I have way too much erroneous beliefs and they get in the way all the time, and they make me forget about the mindset of being honest (because mind goes into fake mode automatically everytime I encoutner a social situation, which I think is so crazy), but I guess I have to push throught that. I honestly believe that with enought practice, I can get a lot better.

I too want flow naturally. My body craves for authenticity... I feel it. I can't handle being fake anymore, so I have to do this. I don't believe I will get to a point where I won't feel any fear, but at least I hope to get to a point where I will automatically behave honestly, even if it means feeling discomfort


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## Diogenes1982

Good luck with your journey, hope you can make sense of it all in time.


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## Diogenes1982

Decreasing the importance of the external environment seems to give the most immediate comfort and ease to myself when going about daily social interactions. In doing so, I lessen the importance of other people’s judgements, which allows more of my real personality to flow out.

Also, something which majorly impedes me reaching any kind of mental equilibrium is when I try to dictate how I should be in social situations, rather then letting myself just be. So, instead of trying to lead my true self via my intellect, I need to let my soul lead my intellect. 

I’ve found it’s much better to work from general guiding principles in beliefs and attitudes, rather than trying to micro-manage the minutiae of social interactions which our soul/true self is more than capable of dealing with. However to let this happen, the self needs to disregard the external environment as anything to fear.


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## Diogenes1982

I've been feeling a bit anxious and confused this week, maybe because I've been getting 5 hours sleep on average, which is less than ideal for myself. However, mainly I think it's because I've been letting externals dominate my internal being, instead of achieving internal dominance over externals. The only way recently I've been able to return to an equilibrium is by literally treating the outside world as very insignificant, with the caveat of always following the good/attempting to be virtuous.

Following the stoics view that good and bad is only ever to be found in our own choice, the external world plays a distant and lowly second fiddle to our beliefs, attitudes, desires and aversions. All care must be applied to the health of our reasoning faculty/soul, in order to bring us into a state of wisdom, where human happiness and tranquility is found, and only the necessary moderate attention should be applied to the temporal nature of the external environment, lest we become too attached to the unreal. So, when we are faced with a situation; we examine it. Is it in our sphere of choice or outside it, if in then use the virtue required, if out - be prepared to say it means nothing to you, and don't give it any further thought, and certainly don't let it cause you any mental disturbance.

Applying the above to an everyday scenario for a social anxiety sufferer; we walk into work knowing we'll have to walk past and talk to various people during the morning. This may start to cause some panic or feelings of discomfort prior and/or during. Take hold a minute not to let this appearance run away with you and you lose your equilibrium. What's causing the discomfort? Other people looking, thinking, and forming judgments about us. Is what other people think and say about us in our control or not? It's not; it's an external completely out of our control, and our desire to control other's opinions is what's causing our anxiety due to the obvious fact that we have no control over other people's thoughts...this is an incorrect understanding of the administration of the world/the all. Therefore what do we do? We cast aside opinion and say to ourselves it means nothing to us, and instead we focus on what's in our control, which is to treat our fellow workers in a civil and amiable manner, and as a brother, not by flesh, but by soul.

A bit more abstractly, we only get to experience existence through our own Self; we'll never truly know what it feels like or looks like to live as another Self. Therefore, with existence so seemingly subjective, surely all importance must be placed on the Self, so we're not deceived by external appearances. This is why we must be prepared to say to all things outside our sphere of choice; *it means nothing to me*.


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## Diogenes1982

We always hear that we shouldn’t care what others think about us, and intuitively we know this makes sense. It’s just whenever we go about life, the same old negative and worrying mindset returns as soon as something socially awkward happens to us. We’ve forgotten all about how we shouldn’t care about opinion, but it makes no difference as we’ve entered that irrational spiral.

To actually believe how little other people’s judgements should mean to us, and to put this into action so we can deal with external life more fearlessly, maybe there needs to be more convincing cognitive logic put to our soul. Socrates and Plato believed that no soul is willingly deprived of the truth, and once the soul is exposed to the truth - it’s impossible to resist or dissent from. So followingly, all we need to do is prove to ourselves that opinion really is irrelevant.

If we look at nature, every part has it’s own place and role within the grand scheme of the All. Each plant and animal has been placed in its station by nature or God, depending on your beliefs. There can be no one who thinks that humans are exempt from nature, so we also have a specific role to play too, and have been given the abilities to carry this out. Undoubtedly our reasoning power is where our uniqueness lies, so this is where our focus must be. This reasoning leads us to the continued perfection of the virtues, however we should be aware that before this can take place, we need to become comfortable in our body. I would hazard a guess that we’re all here in this forum as we’re trying to do just that.

Comprehending what’s in our control and what isn’t is crucial to this in my opinion. Epictetus and the other stoic’s message on this subject is of the utmost importance. Until we realise and fully accept this notion of how little materially, but how great immaterially, we do control, we’ll never progress. The administering forces of the universe have assigned to us a very small part of the All to look after and care for; the health of our reasoning faculty and soul. Sure, the body too, but only so far as to aid the soul. It’s most definitely subservient to the soul. Therefore, we need to fall in line with universal reason; when we’re not in harmony, that’s when anxiety, depression, and alike set in. This can all be reduced to the miscomprehension of what’s in our control and what isn’t.

What is opinion? Judgements formed by others which is subject to varying levels of validity depending on the logic it was found upon. But the key point is, opinion is other’s thoughts, which influences their attitudes and behaviours. All of these things are clearly not assigned to us by nature as within our control, therefore it’s wholely irrational to assume we have any control over what others think and believe about anything or anyone. This includes their thoughts and opinions about you. Whatever they think, validly or not, as may be the case; it has nothing to do with you, and this should gain no dominion in your mind. Anyone giving thought to what others are thinking about them, or worse, trying to control what others think of them (yes that’s been me all my life); you’re acting in strict opposition to nature’s laws, and as a result, you suffer the punishment for not being in harmony. I know that sounds a bit draconian, but I believe it to be true.

So with this in mind, if we can accept this logic, and subsequently alter our mindset to the correct degree, we should experience an immediate relief in negative pressure. That’s exactly what happened to me today. I tested this approach during the day’s interactions, and I’ve indeed felt much less burdened and altogether spiritually lighter. Also, what has been truly pleasing to see and experience, was the unhindered and free flowing nature of my social interaction, once I gave no thought as to what the other person was thinking. This is the acceptance that other people’s thoughts are their own, and I have no control over them. What do we do? Chuck it away and toss it aside; opinion is nothing to us.


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## Diogenes1982

Stop reaching out to try and control the external environment; people’s thoughts, their opinions, their reactions - don’t give them even a passing thought. Just focus on being you without any thought to the outside world and how it will perceive you. This has absolutely nothing to do with you. Instead just focus your consciousness on within, and there you’ll find balance and your centre.


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## Diogenes1982

The last poster on this thread other than me, mentioned about all the monitoring of oneself impeding in being able to engage in meaningful interaction with others (I’m paraphrasing).
I do agree that this is a danger, as I’ve often found myself grasping at which mental and philosophical techniques to deploy during the day to implement previous experiences I’ve learnt from. 
This can become extremely confusing and disorienting, which is why I think we need to give a priority to principles. 
So instead of trying to attend to daily interactions with dozens of things to remember and deploy, try to work from a general principle from which all the others descend.


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## Diogenes1982

I’ve been meaning to update here for ages, but time constraints, and a continual mental remapping of what I thought was true but isn’t; have delayed me!


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## Diogenes1982

Important point no. 1:

I believe we each have our own distinct and individual character, which must be released somehow. Trying to force through a personality of yourself, which you believe is you, however isn’t; will result in lots of negative emotions. Fear, anger, sadness, anxiety, etc....


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## Diogenes1982

Point number 2:

Biases and judgments make the mind sick. This is so subtle, yet so behaviour altering! I’ve realised that I’m always carrying a bias around with me, and never approaching each moment in life from a clean slate. Therefore, everything I experience is tainted according to the bias I have at that moment.

“We see things as we are, not as they are.”

When people say “live in the moment”, this is what it means. Bias free and judgment free - just be, and go with the flow of existence, without your biased mind impeding events. 

However, I’m yet to discover or decide if a positive bias and positive judgements about people or situations, are harmful for living in the moment like negative ones. Something to test...


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## Diogenes1982

Point 3:

Don’t try to micromanage your social interactions by overthinking what to say or how to be. Just like we don’t think about how we move our tongue while chewing, let that same idea permeate how you act with others. All we need to do is stop the negative thought processes and our real self will just flow out. It’s all about releasing rather than creating - we’re already there within ourselves, always have been.

Socrates and the marble carving he did comes to mind; he carved a beautiful statue from a block of marble, yet he refused to take any credit from his admirers. He gave all credit to the gods instead. All he did he said, was to take away the bits that weren’t supposed to be there, and what he was left with, was beauty. It had always been there.


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## Diogenes1982

3 actions that are all connected, which have worked in letting my real personality flow out of myself in a way natural to me:

1. Stopping all thoughts about how I think I should be in social settings. If I let my mind decide and dictate how I’ll act, think and go about interactions, I end up being a hollow and poor imitation of my real self. Not only am I less engaging and authentic, but I feel less connected to others and myself. This tends to lead to feelings of being lost and alone.

2. Following on from point 1, and very much intertwined, is how I need to let the will/life/urge/spirit in me lead, and not the mind. By going with the will and urge within, and not censoring or filtering it with the mind; the real me comes out. As a result I feel infinitely better emotionally and mentally. When I do this, I actually think there’s a way I can live comfortably in my own skin, which I haven’t done in any consistency for my whole life yet. Life could actually feel like maybe it’s intended to, or at least not a constant swim against the current, which it has been so far.

3. For all the above to happen, I think I need a calm mental state, a quietened mental state. Trying to think what to say all the time, or always thinking how to act or move is completely exhausting and unsustainable. Living should not be so tiring, I just think I need to let my will/spirit manifest itself, and to be transmitted through a relaxed mind. As opposed to the mind cutting off the will, and deciding how to act without the authenticity of my real self.


I realise this all sounds a bit confusing, but I needed to write this down for myself while it’s fresh again and making sense to me. The abstraction of these concepts get easily lost in day to day living, and the habitual mistakes of living I’ve been making all these years.


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## Diogenes1982

Don’t let the tail (mind) wag the dog (will/spirit).


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## Diogenes1982

Don’t think, just be.


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## Diogenes1982

Living in the present....

Another way of trying to describe this state everyone’s familiar with


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## Diogenes1982

It’s a complete shift of focus; from thinking about what to say and do, and how it’s perceived; to just saying and doing as my will wants and needs. The thinking is really kept to a minimum. In this state I change from reacting to situations in my behaviour, to initiating according to the want of my will. This can be the smallest of things, such as getting up to make a coffee regardless of who may be watching. I’m convinced not doing something just because someone’s there, or you’re fearful for some reason, has a negative effect on your inner and physical self, as you’ve impeded the expression and release of your will/spirit.


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