# Dear Women...



## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

I'm so sick of something so please watch this short video


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## Aribeth (Jan 14, 2012)

Feminist bs starts at 4:31. You're welcome.


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## Genos (Dec 17, 2014)

^ ty, saved 4 minutes of my life

but seriously, women just aren't interested in cs. it's like asking why only 10 percent of men are nurses


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## JustThisGuy (Mar 24, 2012)

Aribeth said:


> Feminist bs starts at 4:31. You're welcome.


This video was brought to you by conjecture and the letter W, for "woman". :b

Tons of women that're out-numbering men in college, and they're still claiming hard times. It's called life. It's hard sometimes.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

Sorry if this offended anyone, I don't care about the politics of feminism, although I do consider myself a feminist because I feel like women don't have enough equality in income and power. But this video was meant to be inspiring. It's the best I could find, so please take what you can from it and ignore the rest.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Dear man thank you for posting a patronising video that dumbs down computer science encouraging naive women to attempt to get into the subject and then - when facing the reality - are dejected and feel like failures for no good reason. Also having wasted time, energy and their mental health.

Then again some people like myself suck at everything, so in that case it doesn't matter so much. You can't just sit staring at walls until it's time to go to sleep I guess. You have to fail repeatedly so you can later stare at walls safe in the knowledge that there's nothing else to be done.

And no, I've never studied computer science. I've failed so much I can even get pissed off about failures that haven't happened to me in my current reality. It really is a gift.

I'm so sick too.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Dear man thank you for posting a patronising video that dumbs down computer science encouraging naive women to attempt to get into the subject and then - when facing the reality - are dejected and feel like failures for no good reason. Also having wasted time, energy and their mental health.


It's not dumbed down, it's meant for non-"hackers". And the whole point is that it is NOT a waist of time or too hard for girls like you say! That's just what everyone thinks. It's fun and it stimulates a good way of thinking about problems and solving them.


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## LouiseLane (Mar 15, 2015)

I thought it was a good video, which could encourage women who are not sure what path to follow but who have particular interests and skills to consider CS as an option.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Out of the Ashes said:


> It's not dumbed down, it's meant for non-"hackers". And the whole point is that it is NOT a waist of time or too hard for girls like you say! That's just what everyone thinks. It's fun and it stimulates a good way of thinking about problems and solving them.


It's probably too hard for most people. Then again though maybe it's actually really easy and all the people who disagree are just stupid? Would that be more accurate?


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Out of the Ashes said:
> 
> 
> > It's not dumbed down, it's meant for non-"hackers". And the whole point is that it is NOT a waist of time or too hard for girls like you say! That's just what everyone thinks. It's fun and it stimulates a good way of thinking about problems and solving them.
> ...


Not stupid, just wrong. IMO.


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## Mrs Salvatore (Mar 27, 2014)

I don't feel like watching it, but I know of the she++ organization and I think what they're doing is really good. It is so important to encourage girls to go into computer science, and it's important to make the field more welcoming to girls.

But, that said, I'm a bit weirded out and uncomfortable with a guy posting a message to women about what careers to go into.


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## Genos (Dec 17, 2014)

LouiseLane said:


> I thought it was a good video, which could encourage women who are not sure what path to follow but who have particular interests and skills to consider CS as an option.


yes and then they'll realize how boring and tiring cs is and switch to something they actually enjoy instead of being pressured into a field they don't like


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

LouiseLane said:


> I thought it was a good video, which could encourage women who are not sure what path to follow but who have particular interests and skills to consider CS as an option.


Thanks, that's how I meant it. Also to show that it is indeed possible and fun not just for men, but women/girls who like solving puzzles.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Out of the Ashes said:


> Not stupid, just wrong. IMO.


What if they then find it difficult despite the 'everyone can do it' message? What does that mean?


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

Mrs Salvatore said:


> I don't feel like watching it, but I know of the she++ organization and I think what they're doing is really good. It is so important to encourage girls to go into computer science, and it's important to make the field more welcoming to girls.
> 
> But, that said, I'm a bit weirded out and uncomfortable with a guy posting a message to women about what careers to go into.


my motive is that I wish I would meet more female hackers. So I'm trying to do something about it.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Out of the Ashes said:
> 
> 
> > Not stupid, just wrong. IMO.
> ...


They could find out if they like it in about 30 minutes online.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Out of the Ashes said:


> They could find out if they like it in about 30 minutes online.


I didn't ask if they found out they disliked it, I asked if they found out they were bad at it after all the 'you can do it, even if you think you suck that's normal' stuff floating around these days.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

If they enjoy it they will likely do well at it.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

This video is less "dumbed down".


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

Is this more complaining that stereotypes and men make computer subjects unwelcoming to women and that there aren't enough women?

Seriously, I don't feel like watching a 12-minute mystery video, but I would like to point out that it's always been women making me feel uncomfortable around technology, not men.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

If you don't even watch it or like the idea there is no reason to comment, unless you just want to ruin one of the rare positive threads here. I didn't mean for it to be a debate thread, just a source of information for those women that might benefit from it.


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## wrongnumber (May 24, 2009)

Kind Of said:


> it's always been women making me feel uncomfortable around technology, not men.


How did women do that?

Personally, I wouldn't have a clue if I'm good at programming. I thought you had to be mathematically minded, but according to this it's more about being a designer, and (obviously) being patient, precise and logical: http://www.cprogramming.com/whatdoesittake.html
I definitely have more of a designer's mind, but so far I've only really applied that to visual arts. I can be nitpicky and fastidious but also extremely inattentive and impulsive for things that don't interest me, so I'm not sure how I'd do with the patience/precision stuff. I don't know about logical, but my personality test said I am INTP, the logician, lol :stu. I wish we'd learned some basic programming when I was in school so I could get a feel for what kind of abilities I have.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

wrongnumber said:


> How did women do that?


I was feeling out of place because the only female classmates I was talking to didn't seem enthusiastic at all. The campus counselor suggested I get in contact with other women in tech and introduced me to two women instructors, one of them face to face -- that one personally invited me to get in touch later. They both ignored me when I reached out.

In comparison, the guys are often seriously into tech and happy to talk to anyone who appreciates it regardless of experience level, and the men instructors have gone above and beyond to help get me extra information and discuss with me. I've absent-mindedly pointed something out in class and been called out of lab work half an hour later because they found some information on it, and they'll talk to me through e-mail if I want. Hell, they even make suggestions to us on how to find work. Compare to the women who won't even acknowledge my existence if there isn't a counselor next to me asking them to.

I also talk to guys online who are programmers and into networking, and they're awesome, too. I reached out to one woman like that on another forum who lives in my state because she was complaining about being alone and struggling, but was also ignored.

So of course it feels like a welcoming and accessible place as a human being but my connection to women still hurts my confidence. I really just wish that I was male, and that I'd started getting serious years earlier.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

Now days you hardly have to write code at all since there are so many things that have already been written. It's more about being able to connect multiple things together in a meaningful and unique way, all the while with an eye for design because everyone expects a shiny interface now. It's kind of like micro-engenering and inventing interactive art. Of course, there will be times in that process when you will have to understand how computers, apps, and networks are coded and wired in order to know what you can realistically create.


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## ChrisPCD (May 19, 2013)

There's nothing keeping women (in north america anyway) from following their own paths and making money. Nothing other than themselves.


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## Imbored21 (Jun 18, 2012)

The hottest girl in that video was a 6 so yeah... Now a 6 isn't bad, but when your top girl is a 6, you know the majority are going to be 2s, 3s, and 4s. Every field should have at least 7s. Only this way can order be restored.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Out of the Ashes said:


> If they enjoy it they will likely do well at it.


That's rubbish I've been bad at many things I've/I enjoy. All of those things in fact.

Lol this thread is amazing there's me who is just pissed off at life and wants to watch the world burn, Aribeth who hates women and another woman who has grown to dislike women. (Kind Of)

And then Imbored21 commenting on how hot people are.

Is this thread misogynistic? :haha

I don't hate women though, I'm just so upset, and I guess everyone on this forum will avoid me too. Later I'll regret it and be 100% alone. I can't wait.

Bye everyone.


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## sad vlad (Nov 9, 2013)

This is not the 16th century where women were discouraged from following whatever career path they wanted(for example: doctor) and only allowed to pick the careers considered to be suited for them(like teacher). We are in the 3rd millennium and everyone is free to choose any path they like and are good at. So, I don't see why women should be encouraged to learn programming. If they are not studying it or chosed programming as a career, it should be pretty obvious they are not interested in it or are not good at it.

Statistics have shown that men are better at math and physics which also makes them, in general, better fit for the whole IT field. Women are, usually, better at other disciplines and dominate other areas. There is nothing wrong in that. 

Contrary to the opinion I've seen in here, that programming/coding is a piece of cake, I must say it is actually very hard and ''arid''. Few people are actually good at it and make a career out of it. I can say this after studying it for 4 years in high school.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> That's rubbish I've been bad at many things I've/I enjoy. All of those things in fact.
> 
> Lol this thread is amazing there's me who is just pissed off at life and wants to watch the world burn, Aribeth who hates women and another woman who has grown to dislike women. (Kind Of)
> 
> ...


Not misogynistic. There are a lot of women I respect... outside of tech. Women are the problem with women in tech, though. I really wish people would stop talking about it like they're some kind of victim and anything other than women are the reason there's so few. The world has just latched onto this idea that outside forces (*coughcough*men*cough*) are at work and will not let it go, but until it does things can't possibly improve because that's just false. Things will only improve when women stop treating themselves and other women as victims, stick up for each other when things are hard, take interest of their own accord (particularly early on), and don't feel there's a conflict between their career and their sense of femininity.

Misogyny is about the gender itself. Mine has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with deliberate behavior and attitudes that are not part of being a woman, but part of being an unpleasant person and complaining about your minority position while not sticking together with other minorities to improve your standing. The dialogue isn't about more educated women or making certain work more accessible to women, it's about politics and nothing more. When you're an "oppressed minority" uplifted by your oppressors something about the story doesn't add up.

I know this is about the least popular opinion in the world, but I'm going to keep saying it until people start listening because I do care and I don't want younger women thinking that the mean old boys are going to pick on and oppress them when they're perfectly safe. Or that they can expect gender-specific solidarity if they do find gender-specific trouble.

But, yeah. Just keep saying I "dislike women" and that there's nothing else to what I'm saying.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Kind Of said:


> Not misogynistic. There are a lot of women I respect... outside of tech. Women are the problem with women in tech, though. I really wish people would stop talking about it like they're some kind of victim and anything other than women are the reason there's so few. The world has just latched onto this idea that outside forces (*coughcough*men*cough*) are at work and will not let it go, but until it does things can't possibly improve because that's just false. Things will only improve when women stop treating themselves and other women as victims, stick up for each other when things are hard, take interest of their own accord (particularly early on), and don't feel there's a conflict between their career and their sense of femininity.
> 
> Misogyny is about the gender itself. Mine has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with deliberate behavior and attitudes that are not part of being a woman, but part of being an unpleasant person and complaining about your minority position while not sticking together with other minorities to improve your standing. The dialogue isn't about more educated women or making certain work more accessible to women, it's about politics and nothing more. When you're an "oppressed minority" uplifted by your oppressors something about the story doesn't add up.
> 
> ...


I was joking about the misogynistic part because there's a user who always posts 'is this thread racist?' etc. I was going for lame imitation.

I don't disagree with you by the way.

I've seen a few of your posts and gotten the impression that you've grown to be very... Disenchanted with women, OK 'women in tech,' that's all.

You're very intimidating by the way, at least to me. (I hope you don't take that offensively I don't mean it that way, I'm just very honest here...)

I'm sure I've never said that you 'dislike women' before this post either, so not sure if the 'keep saying' is directed at me or if other people have said that or what.


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## LouiseLane (Mar 15, 2015)

OP seems to be a guy who wishes his field had some more women in it. I have heard guys in particular industuries or disciplines lament the lack of women in their workplaces or classes, and I think it is nice for guys to have women around. I can understand the OP's preference to have more women around him day to day. 

As for women expecting a hand up in the industry, it seems to me the she++ company is women helping women. The founders (women) suggested they originally felt like computer science had nothing to offer them and would be an unpleasant field, but on taking an introductory class, found they really liked it. They assume that if they were somehow feeling deterred from CS (too hard, too dull, not receptive to them) maybe other women were feeling so as well. So they wanted to do something to help women see potential in technology subjects. There's clearly a need for more people to be trained in the industry, so more women would put more people in the chairs in the classes and then into jobs, which are almost waiting for trained people. 

This seems to me to be an initiative by women for women and nowhere in the video do they complain about men keeping them out of the industry. 

And Persephone, I am surprised you feel like you can't do stuff (today, this evening or however often) as you seem very intelligent and astute to me. Something may be getting in the way for you, but your strengths are pretty noticeable online.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I was joking about the misogynistic part because there's a user who always posts 'is this thread racist?' etc. I was going for lame imitation.
> 
> I don't disagree with you by the way.
> 
> ...


It wasn't directed at you, I guess, but I'm so sick of the dialogue and the politics. I hate politics, which is all about smudging human words, needs, deeds, and experiences in the name of human wants while saying that it's for human ideals.


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## Mrs Salvatore (Mar 27, 2014)

LouiseLane said:


> OP seems to be a guy who wishes his field had some more women in it. I have heard guys in particular industuries or disciplines lament the lack of women in their workplaces or classes, and I think it is nice for guys to have women around. I can understand the OP's preference to have more women around him day to day.
> 
> As for women expecting a hand up in the industry, it seems to me the she++ company is women helping women. The founders (women) suggested they originally felt like computer science had nothing to offer them and would be an unpleasant field, but on taking an introductory class, found they really liked it. They assume that if they were somehow feeling deterred from CS (too hard, too dull, not receptive to them) maybe other women were feeling so as well. So they wanted to do something to help women see potential in technology subjects. There's clearly a need for more people to be trained in the industry, so more women would put more people in the chairs in the classes and then into jobs, which are almost waiting for trained people.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the dialogue around topics like this by those ill informed is troubling. The immediate jump to assuming they're mad at men, or blame men. This, and nearly all feminist topics, are not about men. They complain, why don't feminists help women rather than attack men, and then complain the same when that's exactly what they're doing.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

Mrs Salvatore said:


> Yeah, the dialogue around topics like this by those ill informed is troubling. The immediate jump to assuming they're mad at men, or blame men. This, and nearly all feminist topics, are not about men. They complain, why don't feminists help women rather than attack men, and then complain the same when that's exactly what they're doing.


I think it's more troubling that any dialogue which doesn't fit an agenda is labeled as biased and ill-informed. If people want womens' feelings and experiences in these settings to matter, that means listening to them even when they're not saying what they want to hear. My experiences are as valid as those of any women in those videos, whether or not anyone wants to hear it.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Dear man thank you for posting a patronising video that dumbs down computer science encouraging naive women to attempt to get into the subject and then - when facing the reality - are dejected and feel like failures for no good reason. Also having wasted time, energy and their mental health.
> 
> Then again some people like myself suck at everything, so in that case it doesn't matter so much. You can't just sit staring at walls until it's time to go to sleep I guess. You have to fail repeatedly so you can later stare at walls safe in the knowledge that there's nothing else to be done.
> 
> ...


:drunk I don't believe you, you seem to be pretty good at a lot of stuff from everything I've seen.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

In past generations everyone (including women) thought that women were genetically bad at science and it was a waste of time for them to even consider. Now, all across the world, girls are outperforming boys in science.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

Out of the Ashes said:


> In past generations everyone (including women) thought that women were genetically bad at science and it was a waste of time for them to even consider. *Now, all across the world, girls are outperforming boys in science.*


Do you mean academically in school ? Because that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be able to study it at university level (the same is true for a lot of subjects)

There will always be some women who gravitate towards STEM and I'll grant you that we as a society should do away with the generalisation that possessing more than one X chromosome is somehow going to make you less interested in those subjects. The same can be said about men and something like nursing.

BUT- and it's a very big but; that doesn't mean that there is discrimination going on or that it's important to get women into the field. You're discounting the possibility *that women are making their own choices, and most of them do not want to enter STEM*.

If you look at some of the most egalitarian countries in the world (even by Feminist approved metrics) you will see that women still stay away from STEM subjects. More opportunity and no societal pressure and they still don't take them up. So unless we force people against their will, this may just be the natural way things are.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

^ That would be fine, and I don't want to influence anyone's will, just make sure they know it's possible and that they know they will be welcomed into the industry.

I'm personally looking for business partners and would prefer working with a women than a man, because I'm more comfortable talking to them, but that's rarely been an option for me in the past.


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## starrlamia (Mar 28, 2015)

Out of the Ashes said:


> In past generations everyone (including women) thought that women were genetically bad at science and it was a waste of time for them to even consider. Now, all across the world, girls are outperforming boys in science.


women were never genetically bad at science, where the crap do you even come up with this stuff?


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## Mrs Salvatore (Mar 27, 2014)

starrlamia said:


> women were never genetically bad at science, where the crap do you even come up with this stuff?


That guy is saying they're not, just that people thought they were. Paper samurai is the one saying girls are just stupid and thats why they don't go into STEM fields.


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## starrlamia (Mar 28, 2015)

Mrs Salvatore said:


> That guy is saying they're not, just that people thought they were. Paper samurai is the one saying girls are just stupid and thats why they don't go into STEM fields.


my bad I just woke up, ignore me haha, shouldn't post when I'm half asleep and obviously can't read things properly :S Maybe I am too stupid to go into STEM fields...


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

Mrs Salvatore said:


> That guy is saying they're not, just that people thought they were. Paper samurai is the one saying girls are just stupid and thats why they don't go into STEM fields.


An interesting interpretation, I'll give you that :b

I simply stated that women aren't going into STEM, and there is the distinct possibility that it's down to individual choice. I made no absolutist statements - it's other people who see the lack of female participation as a cut and dry thing - "oh it must be because of discrimination". I'd be interested in seeing the evidence to back this up - as correlation does not equal causation after all.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

Paper Samurai said:


> Mrs Salvatore said:
> 
> 
> > That guy is saying they're not, just that people thought they were. Paper samurai is the one saying girls are just stupid and thats why they don't go into STEM fields.
> ...


http://www.businessinsider.com/7-things-keeping-women-out-of-science-2013-10

"Studies have shown that when told that men score better in math tests than women, women tend to score worse. When told that isn't true, the two genders scored equally well."


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## Kanova (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't know where the hell you people live at, but I never notice any of this female oppression stuff. Like, our uni and college have women only classes, and there are a lot of women in computer science class, lots of women in trades classes and even our last mayor was a woman and well, lots of women everywhere. But hey, if they say they are being oppressed by a patriarchal society, who am I to argue.


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## Out of the Ashes (Jun 6, 2013)

^ No one is saying that.

Also, for those of you who don't like math, I am an independant app developer/web developer and I am no good at math at all. That's what calculators are for. I also dropped out of college and taught myself. It's one of the rare disciplines that doesn't require a degree to do well. There are even some internet entrepreneurs who donate money to help people drop out of college and start a business instead. It's very well suited to people with social anxiety.


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