# There are a lot of Christians on this site.



## pantazi

There was no person called Jesus who died for your sins.

If you believe in the biblical guy, you're a christian.

There was no mention of him till the people put the books together at the council of Nicaea.

The bible is allegorical.

Don't get me started on the existence of a christian god lol

Surfice to say HE doesn't exist either.

Go read a philosophy book. if you want he logical proof. 

It's simple to disprove this uneducated patriarcal belief system.


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## Joe

There is no proof god doesn't exist! None that he does either, logical doubts can be raised about the depths that can be delved through science which causes people to still be religious (that and blind faith).


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## GepardenK

There is no proof that god dosen't exist, but there is no proof that dragons dosen't exist in the earths core aswell. From my point of view you can't just believe in everything you find fitting just because there is no way of disproving it. Also, there are many many reasons why someone like god would become popular even if he dosen't exist, this makes the fact that he is made up by human minds even more likely


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## Brasilia

You say you think 'for yourself' when claiming that god doesn't exist, then you tell us to read someone else's opinion in a philosophy book to reiterate that point

Why don't you come up with your own opinions?

I'm not Christian, I don't know or care if Jesus was real or not, but there is a lot we all can learn from this Jesus guy and I admire him


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## laura024

Trying to convince a Christian that they're wrong is futile. Just let them believe what they want. The thing that really bothers me is when people use their religion to make laws and/or to oppress human rights. I believe in separation of church and state wholeheartedly.


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## BobtheBest

No, there isn't a lot of religious people on here. Which is why I never bring up my religion at all on here, out of respect for those who don't follow it.


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## Billius

pantazi said:


> There was no person called Jesus who died for your sins.
> 
> If you believe in the biblical guy, you're a christian.
> 
> There was no mention of him till the people put the books together at the council of Nicaea.
> 
> The bible is allegorical.
> 
> Don't get me started on the existence of a christian god lol
> 
> Surfice to say HE doesn't exist either.
> 
> Go read a philosophy book. if you want he logical proof.
> 
> It's simple to disprove this uneducated patriarcal belief system.


what a bigoted post:b
I'm not christian but I find this nonsense extremely tiresome, there have been ****head atheists too


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

Christians cannot be reasoned with, and I bet they all think the same for atheists as well. 

We all kind of have to learn at one point in time that both sides will never, ever change their beliefs.


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## Killer2121

What? Most people on this site are NOT Christian. Compare the religious sub section to the atheist one. 

Btw, your post is extremely lulz. It should be posted in the other Atheist section that is "up for debate"


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## pantazi

Brasilia said:


> You say you think 'for yourself' when claiming that god doesn't exist, then you tell us to read someone else's opinion in a philosophy book to reiterate that point
> 
> Why don't you come up with your own opinions?
> 
> I'm not Christian, I don't know or care if Jesus was real or not, but there is a lot we all can learn from this Jesus guy and I admire him


Lol a non sequitor there.

It doesnt tell what to think in philosophy books  

Not a friend of logic are you?

You say you're not a christian and then say we can learn from jesus and you admire him duuuuuhh a christian who doesn't know he's one.

There was no jesus if you believe there was you're a christian duhhhhhhhh

You prove the title of my thread.

We need to do IQ tests before letting people post on here

At least teach them basic sylogistic logical arguments.


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## jonny neurotic

What a disappointing thread. I was hoping for a half decent diatribe on how belief in God doesn't seem to help people witb SA, but instead I find someone dogmatically telling Christians to stop believing what they believe and start reading philosophy. 

Not good.

But seeing as how the thread already exists, let's ask the question;

Why does faith in Jesus not alleviate social anxiety? 

Christians proclaim the power of prayer claiming that Jesus is the answer to all our problems, that faith in the one true God gives them something that us heathens are desperately lacking, and yet so many Christians are suffering from SA. 

I have never seen any proof of the power of faith. Whether religious or non-religious, people have the same problems in life and the same strengths and weeknesses. The reason there are a few religious nutbags vocalising so fervently in the public arena on the "sin" of homosexuality is because they are battling their own latent tendancies towards things which are regarded as sinful within the construct of their belief system. Their faith does not rid them of their predispositions, so they have to constantly fight against their own nature, causing them much grief and inner turmoil, so they are offended when they see other people openly actualising these tendancies and this makes them want to stomp their feet and throw a tantrum. My point is that whether Christian or non-christian people have the same tendancies, the same motivations, the same desires and the same fears and there is no evidence that faith gives people any strength they would not otherwise have had. It can be a focus for them to channel their "energies" but will not provide them with anything an athiest cannot garner through meditation. The one thing religion has been shown to do in many cases, however, is cause people to close their minds to possibilities they could otherwise allow themselves to consider. 

Why does faith in Jesus not take away your SA? 

Why does walking the one true path not rid you of this fear?

The Islamic concept of Jihad is often interpreted as "a spiritual battle whcih takes place inside yourself". The problem is that the fighting must be done by you and you alone and no God can save you from yourself. No amount of prayer, and whichever other rituals you observe in your attemps to find absolution, will take away the daemons that taunt and torture you. No amount of masochistic self-derogation will absolve you of the responsibility you have to yourself. Your daemons are a part of you, a side of you that you must reconcile with, not outside agents with which you must do battle. 

SA, is mal-adaptive behaviour resulting from the genetic hand you were dealt. If you really believe in an almighty creator you should feel inclined to ask him why? 

Why has he given you this pain?

Why does he not relieve you of your misery?

Why are there so many godless heathens who do not have to suffer in their every day existence?

And while you are at it ask you God; 

"Where are you when I need you most?"


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## T-Bone

pantazi said:


> Lol a non sequitor there.
> 
> It doesnt tell what to think in philosophy books
> 
> Not a friend of logic are you?
> 
> *You say you're not a christian and then say we can learn from jesus and you admire him duuuuuhh a christian who doesn't know he's one.
> 
> There was no jesus if you believe there was you're a christian duhhhhhhhh
> 
> *
> You prove the title of my thread.
> 
> We need to do IQ tests before letting people post on here
> 
> At least teach them basic sylogistic logical arguments.


Believing Jesus existed or thinking his personality has things to offer others has nothing to do with being a christian. You have to believe he is the son of God and except him into you heart and all of that junk....."DUUUUHHH" You should have an understanding of this before making these types of posts.
I don't understand why some atheists insist on making other atheists look bad. You got people who don't believe. And that's fine. Then there are the ones that try to belittle people's faith in order to fill some gap in their own miserable lives. It's like "hey, i'm smart for not having faith in a god or an afterlife, you're a f**king goon, because you do! har har". All in attempt at lowering people to their level of dissatisfaction with life. Meanwhile, claiming they're trying to make people view things more rationally as an excuse to cover up their true misery induced motives. What a sad way to think and to live. I thought this was the support area of the forum anyways.


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## ugh1979

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> We all kind of have to learn at one point in time that both sides will never, ever change their beliefs.


Nonsense. Do you not know that northern Europe used to be almost exclusivley Christian but now the majority are secular? It takes many generations but change from definitley happens in many areas of the world. (See the far east as well) Religion is bleeding out. It's doomed to extinction.

This forum is filled with ex-theists, so as I say, it's nonsense to say people will never ever change their beliefs.

It comes as no surprise that you are only 14 and from the USA. That said i'll let you off for not knowing about the rest of the world and its history.


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## jonny neurotic

SomebodyWakeME said:


> You got people who don't believe. And that's fine. Then there are the ones that try to belittle people's faith in order to fill some gap in their own miserable lives. It's like "hey, i'm smart for not having faith in a god or an afterlife, you're a f**king goon, because you do! har har". All in attempt at lowering people to their level of dissatisfaction with life. Meanwhile, claiming they're trying to make people view things more rationally as an excuse to cover up their true misery induced motives. What a sad way to think and to live.


 I think it is safe to say that there are people on both sides who have this attitude. I have no problem with people believing fairytales but I also don't see the problem with trying to get others to question their beliefs, bare in mind that religious people are the ones who generally assume moral superiority an blame godlessness for all the evils in the world yet they are the ones most likely to want to interfere in peoples personal lives. However, I did find the OP rather gratuitous and wanting of substance.

My main concern is for those who I care about and the possibility that they could succumb to the preachings of some religious nutbag and never live a truly satisfying life, always allowing their super-ego to restrict them and bind them to a dogmatic lifestyle of self denial and puritanical self flagellation, or, if they can rationalise sinful behaviour as so many religious people do, project their percieved sinful nature onto those who do not share their beliefs, adversly effecting the relationships they have with other human beings. I have first hand experience of fundimentalist Christianity and it is abhorent to any reasonably minded person.

To question ones beliefs is integral to self-improvement. CBT would simply not work if the individual is not willing to question their feelings yet Christianity teaches that one should think more with ones heart and less with ones head. This is madness. The one thing that sets us apart from all other animals is our capacity to think things through, plan ahead and alter our emotions through rationality to achieve our goals and be satisfied with our selves, and religion is an impediment to us realising our full, human potential.

Paranoid people never question their feelings. Rational people always question their feelings. The proof of Gods existence almost always cited by religious people is that they "feel" Gods love. Paranoid delusions aren't always painful, but that doesn't make them any less delusional. It's just a feeling...


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## ugh1979

jonny neurotic said:


> I think it is safe to say that there are people on both sides who have this attitude. I have no problem with people believing fairytales but I also don't see the problem with trying to get others to question their beliefs, bare in mind that religious people are the ones who generally assume moral superiority an blame godlessness for all the evils in the world yet they are the ones most likely to want to interfere in peoples personal lives. However, I did find the OP rather gratuitous and wanting of substance.
> 
> My main concern is for those who I care about and the possibility that they could succumb to the preachings of some religious nutbag and never live a truly satisfying life, always allowing their super-ego to restrict them and bind them to a dogmatic lifestyle of self denial and puritanical self flagellation, or, if they can rationalise sinful behaviour as so many religious people do, project their percieved sinful nature onto those who do not share their beliefs, adversly effecting the relationships they have with other human beings. I have first hand experience of fundimentalist Christianity and it is abhorent to any reasonably minded person.
> 
> To question ones beliefs is integral to self-improvement. CBT would simply not work if the individual is not willing to question their feelings yet Christianity teaches that one should think more with ones heart and less with ones head. This is madness. The one thing that sets us apart from all other animals is our capacity to think things through, plan ahead and alter our emotions through rationality to achieve our goals and be satisfied with our selves, and religion is an impediment to us realising our full, human potential.
> 
> Paranoid people never question their feelings. Rational people always question their feelings. The proof of Gods existence almost always cited by religious people is that they "feel" Gods love. Paranoid delusions aren't always painful, but that doesn't make them any less delusional. It's just a feeling...


Agreed. Well said.


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## jonny neurotic

pantazi said:


> Lol a non sequitor there.
> 
> It doesnt tell what to think in philosophy books
> 
> Not a friend of logic are you?
> 
> You say you're not a christian and then say we can learn from jesus and you admire him duuuuuhh a christian who doesn't know he's one.
> 
> There was no jesus if you believe there was you're a christian duhhhhhhhh
> 
> You prove the title of my thread.
> 
> We need to do IQ tests before letting people post on here
> 
> At least teach them basic sylogistic logical arguments.


You really are an arrogant little sh!t, aren't you? Why don't you go troll some other website. At least a real troll would have posted this in the "Agnosticism, Atheism and Religion" forum where more relgious people would be likely to see it but you have to cower in here trying desperately to assume some intellectual superiority over the faithful.

Just go away...


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## T-Bone

jonny neurotic said:


> I think it is safe to say that there are people on both sides who have this attitude. I have no problem with people believing fairytales but I also don't see the problem with trying to get others to question their beliefs, bare in mind that religious people are the ones who generally assume moral superiority an blame godlessness for all the evils in the world yet they are the ones most likely to want to interfere in peoples personal lives. However, I did find the OP rather gratuitous and wanting of substance.


Very true. There's people on both sides to blame. I also see no harm in getting one to question their beliefs. But there's a difference between that, and being disrespectful. Disrespect is not even necessary in order to do this. That's the type who give non-believers a bad rep. Just like the religious "I'll pray for your soul. I don't want you to go to hell" types are just as condescending, and often too blind to see it. And they make me look bad even as a deist, because some can't seem to be able to distinguish deism from theism.


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## Brasilia

I think we've come to a consensus here: this thread was a mistake :banana


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## pastels

If feel very sad for you telling us what to beleive and what is and not true. Like the other guy said post in the athiest section u dnt see us christians bashing u why r u bashing us? Get a life


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

ugh1979 said:


> Nonsense. Do you not know that northern Europe used to be almost exclusivley Christian but now the majority are secular? It takes many generations but change from definitley happens in many areas of the world. (See the far east as well) Religion is bleeding out. It's doomed to extinction.
> 
> This forum is filled with ex-theists, so as I say, it's nonsense to say people will never ever change their beliefs.
> 
> It comes as no surprise that you are only 14 and from the USA. That said i'll let you off for not knowing about the rest of the world and its history.


I agree that religion is dwindling in many parts of the world. And I was once Christian, and I stopped believing not from atheists arguments, which I shot down and forgot without any thought, but from a church service that made me start doubting.

My point was not that religious people will never stop believing, but rather that atheists debating with them isn't what's going to make them lose their faith.


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## ugh1979

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> I agree that religion is dwindling in many parts of the world. And I was once Christian, and I stopped believing not from atheists arguments, which I shot down and forgot without any thought, but from a church service that made me start doubting.
> 
> My point was not that religious people will never stop believing, but rather that atheists debating with them isn't what's going to make them lose their faith.


Atheists/science educating them is what mainly makes people lose their faith as they see how much more credible alternatives to religious answers are. People don't work out the alternatives for themselves, they are always influenced and educated from a third party or parties. There is a reason why basically everyone was religious before science started answering so many questions.

Atheist arguments are science based, so I'd love to hear how a 14 year old child shot them down.


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## niacin

Brasilia said:


> You say you think 'for yourself' when claiming that god doesn't exist, then you tell us to read someone else's opinion in a philosophy book to reiterate that point
> 
> Why don't you come up with your own opinions?
> 
> I'm not Christian, I don't know or care if Jesus was real or not, but there is a lot we all can learn from this Jesus guy and I admire him


+10

And besides, I have been fortunate to meet some very compassionate and wholly good people. If humans can be like that, why can't our origins at least be merciful?


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## Strwbrry

This whole thread is quite pointless. You can't stop people from believing what they want, certainly not with those judging words.


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## millenniumman75

pantazi said:


> There was no person called Jesus who died for your sins.
> 
> If you believe in the biblical guy, you're a christian.
> 
> There was no mention of him till the people put the books together at the council of Nicaea.
> 
> The bible is allegorical.
> 
> Don't get me started on the existence of a christian god lol
> 
> Surfice to say HE doesn't exist either.
> 
> Go read a philosophy book. if you want he logical proof.
> 
> It's simple to disprove this uneducated patriarcal belief system.


Was this intentionally posted to start trouble?


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## T-Bone

millenniumman75 said:


> Was this intentionally posted to start trouble?


LOL Good eye, mm75!


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## millenniumman75

SomebodyWakeME said:


> LOL Good eye, mm75!


Well, there wasn't even an S in the title!

It's CHRISTIAN, not CHRITIAN! :doh


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## Raphael200

pantazi said:


> There was no person called Jesus who died for your sins.
> 
> If you believe in the biblical guy, you're a christian.
> 
> There was no mention of him till the people put the books together at the council of Nicaea.
> 
> The bible is allegorical.
> 
> Don't get me started on the existence of a christian god lol
> 
> Surfice to say HE doesn't exist either.
> 
> Go read a philosophy book. if you want he logical proof.
> 
> It's simple to disprove this uneducated patriarcal belief system.


Fawk U atheist!


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## jonny neurotic

And I thought this forum wasn't for debate... 

Pfft!


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

ugh1979 said:


> Atheists/science educating them is what mainly makes people lose their faith as they see how much more credible alternatives to religious answers are. People don't work out the alternatives for themselves, they are always influenced and educated from a third party or parties. There is a reason why basically everyone was religious before science started answering so many questions.
> 
> Atheist arguments are science based, so I'd love to hear how a 14 year old child shot them down.


Religion isn't science based- it's faith based. So when I was younger, I would argue that faith was more valid than science. Now I'm not religious, and I have to disagree that there has to be a 'third party' in someone losing faith in a religion. The only time I ever conversed about religion from an atheist was once in middle school. It was a pastor in church, not a 'third party' that made me originally start doubting, before a long period of hazy-belief and non-belief before I finally settled that it is illogical that a higher power to exist. Science, unfortunately, isn't answering everyone's questions, since the atheist population in the united states is still approximately 4%.

And I'm really getting tired of people always adding something at the end about how I'm fourteen. :noI cannot control my age as you can't control yours.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

jonny neurotic said:


> And I thought this forum wasn't for debate...
> 
> Pfft!


Haha me too!


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

Colonel Terrorist said:


> Fawk U atheist!


Hey, please respect people's beliefs. This is our place to speak our opinions. You have yours. We have ours. There's a fine line that needs to be respected here.


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## Noca

jJoe said:


> There is no proof god doesn't exist! None that he does either, logical doubts can be raised about the depths that can be delved through science which causes people to still be religious (that and blind faith).


There is no proof the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist either. Though both are just as ridiculous to assume that they do exist.


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## Billius

I'm surprised this thread is still open


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## TrcyMcgrdy1

What is a Chritian? Sounds like some alien race from a galaxy far far away...


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## ugh1979

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> Religion isn't science based- it's faith based.


Well that's a given.



> So when I was younger, I would argue that faith was more valid than science.


How could something with no evidence be more valid than something which is entirely based on evidence? :? I appreciate you no longer believe this but wonder how you could have ever thought it.



> Now I'm not religious, and I have to disagree that there has to be a 'third party' in someone losing faith in a religion. The only time I ever conversed about religion from an atheist was once in middle school. It was a pastor in church, not a 'third party' that made me originally start doubting, before a long period of hazy-belief and non-belief before I finally settled that it is illogical that a higher power to exist.


I'm glad to hear that. 



> Science, unfortunately, isn't answering everyone's questions, since the atheist population in the united states is still approximately 4%.


The US is the oddball of the developed world though. Levels of athiesm are much much higher elsewhere. The majority of people in northern Europe are for example.



> And I'm really getting tired of people always adding something at the end about how I'm fourteen. :noI cannot control my age as you can't control yours.


All it means is that you have just started learning about the world, so you will sometimes be deemed less credible than an adult about certain subjects.

The fact you have realised religion is a sham is big plus point though and i'll give you credit for that.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

ugh1979 said:


> Well that's a given.
> 
> How could something with no evidence be more valid than something which is entirely based on evidence? :? I appreciate you no longer believe this but wonder how you could have ever thought it.
> 
> I'm glad to hear that.
> 
> The US is the oddball of the developed world though. Levels of athiesm are much much higher elsewhere. The majority of people in northern Europe are for example.
> 
> All it means is that you have just started learning about the world, so you will sometimes be deemed less credible than an adult about certain subjects.
> 
> The fact you have realised religion is a sham is big plus point though and i'll give you credit for that.


I'm taking it you haven't had many conversations with religious people, because there entire argument lies on 'blind faith'. They ignore all evidence and logic and fact and disregard it by simply stating "You have to have faith." I said it. People now say it to me.


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## hoddesdon

pantazi said:


> There was no person called Jesus who died for your sins.
> 
> There was no mention of him till the people put the books together at the council of Nicaea.


Not true - see: http://users.binary.net/polycarp/jesus.html


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## UltraShy

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> Christians cannot be reasoned with, and I bet they all think the same for atheists as well.


I'm open to religion. When Jesus shows up at my door I'll invite him in and we can discuss thing over wine that he magically made from water. Does Jesus do champaign as well? Well, I'll find out in the highly unlikely even he pops over.

Thus far I've only met folks who claim to know him, but have never actually met this man they consider their boss.


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## ugh1979

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> I'm taking it you haven't had many conversations with religious people, because there entire argument lies on 'blind faith'. They ignore all evidence and logic and fact and disregard it by simply stating "You have to have faith." I said it. People now say it to me.


OK I understand what you mean now. You were talking subjectively rather than objectively. _They _feel their faith is the more valid than any evidence, hence why we call it blind faith.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

UltraShy said:


> I'm open to religion. When Jesus shows up at my door I'll invite him in and we can discuss thing over wine that he magically made from water. Does Jesus do champaign as well? Well, I'll find out in the highly unlikely even he pops over.
> 
> Thus far I've only met folks who claim to know him, but have never actually met this man they consider their boss.


Haha if jesus showed up and my door and turned water to wine and brought back some dead people I'd let him in.

It's just sometimes atheists will be stereotyped into being 'hard-headed' I guess? I don't know. Just what I've heard.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

ugh1979 said:


> OK I understand what you mean now. You were talking subjectively rather than objectively. _They _feel their faith is the more valid than any evidence, hence why we call it blind faith.


Exactly!


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## Killer2121

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> Haha if jesus showed up and my door and turned water to wine and brought back some dead people I'd let him in.
> 
> It's just sometimes atheists will be stereotyped into being 'hard-headed' I guess? I don't know. Just what I've heard.


And you wonder why atheists are stereotyped? I see the common atheist as being no better than the common religious person. They are both equally hard headed, the case with atheists is that they tend to think they are better than everyone else because they don't believe in God which = not being brainwashed = smarter.

Btw age: 14


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## ugh1979

Killer2121 said:


> And you wonder why atheists are stereotyped? I see the common atheist as being no better than the common religious person. They are both equally hard headed,


In my experience the 'common' religious person and 'common' atheist are not hard headed. If anything they often really don't care that much and will just say 'whatever' rather than get in to a debate. I wish there were far more hard headed atheists actually!



> the case with atheists is that they tend to think they are better than everyone else because they don't believe in God which = not being brainwashed = smarter.


I don't know how anyone can think they are 'better' (whatever that means) than everyone else. Everyone has their qualities. Someone would have to be completley deluded to think they were 'better' than everyone else, unless it was something specific in which they had beaten everyone else at in a world competition. 

I don't see any problem with certain people thinking certain other people are wrong about certain things though.


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## z01210

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> Religion isn't science based- it's faith based. So when I was younger, I would argue that faith was more valid than science. Now I'm not religious, and I have to disagree that there has to be a 'third party' in someone losing faith in a religion. The only time I ever conversed about religion from an atheist was once in middle school. It was a pastor in church, not a 'third party' that made me originally start doubting, before a long period of hazy-belief and non-belief before I finally settled that it is illogical that a higher power to exist. Science, unfortunately, isn't answering everyone's questions, since the atheist population in the united states is still approximately 4%.
> 
> And I'm really getting tired of people always adding something at the end about how I'm fourteen. :noI cannot control my age as you can't control yours.


SHUT UP UR 14.

jk


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## rawrguy

Indeed there are a lot of christians on this site.


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## Joe

Ever heard of faith healing? Believing your getting guided might cause the placebo effect which could be a remedy for your problems! Not for all but for some faith healing may be the answer.

By Jjoe: Aged 16.


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## ugh1979

jJoe said:


> Ever heard of faith healing? Believing your getting guided might cause the placebo effect which could be a remedy for your problems! Not for all but for some this seems to work.


It can for very basic problems that the body is capable of self healing, but when people reject modern medicine in favour of faith healing they often end up losing lots of money and sometimes dying needlessly.


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## 50piecesteve

so basically you made this thread to throw punches at Christians??


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## Joe

ugh1979 said:


> It can for very basic problems that the body is capable of self healing, but when people reject modern medicine in favour of faith healing they often end up losing lots of money and sometimes dying needlessly.


Yeah in those cases its harmful, haven't they thought the prayers of past sufferers have been answered with modern medicine? I got that from family guy btw but it makes sense


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## ManOnTheMOON

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> I agree that religion is dwindling in many parts of the world. And I was once Christian, and I stopped believing not from atheists arguments, which I shot down and forgot without any thought, but from a church service that made me start doubting.
> 
> My point was not that religious people will never stop believing, but rather that atheists debating with them isn't what's going to make them lose their faith.


If you never had a relationship with Jesus you were never a christian. I was once like that too. Before you reject Jesus, seek a *relationship* with him first. Through this relationship you will see the proof you need guaranteed.


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## Foh_Teej

ManOnTheMOON said:


> If you never had a relationship with Jesus you were never a christian. I was once like that too. Before you reject Jesus, seek a *relationship* with him first. Through this relationship you will see the proof you need guaranteed.


I have asked a few people from this site and others to ask their fairy man to prove himself to me by printing off a list of VIN numbers from vehicles I've owned. It prints when I need it to but your useless god can't print anything yet. This seems like an easy task for a all knowing super omnipotent god. Until you can demonstrate you aren't absolutely destined to the psych ward, start praying hard right now.


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## luceo

ManOnTheMOON said:


> If you never had a relationship with Jesus you were never a christian. I was once like that too. Before you reject Jesus, seek a *relationship* with him first. Through this relationship you will see the proof you need guaranteed.


I don't know, I'm just not ready for a relationship just yet. I mean Jesus is a great guy and all, but I'm just not ready to settle down. I'm sorry Jesus, it's not you, it's me.


----------



## wordscancutyoulikeglass

Killer2121 said:


> And you wonder why atheists are stereotyped? I see the common atheist as being no better than the common religious person. They are both equally hard headed, the case with atheists is that they tend to think they are better than everyone else because they don't believe in God which = not being brainwashed = smarter.
> 
> Btw age: 14


I don't think of atheists and religious people being similar at all. Religious people shrug off arguments with saying like, "You can prove he's NOT real," or "Sometimes you have to have faith," while atheists tend to base their arguments off of fact and logic. I can understand why atheists would think themselves smarter, only because we've all heard those Christians that don't care about math/science/history only because 'jesus will tell them everything in heaven', so they become unmotivated to learn. Not saying that all theists are like this. Just some. And yes, I'm 14, but how again is that relevant?


----------



## wordscancutyoulikeglass

ManOnTheMOON said:


> If you never had a relationship with Jesus you were never a christian. I was once like that too. Before you reject Jesus, seek a *relationship* with him first. Through this relationship you will see the proof you need guaranteed.


I had a relationship with 'god', for a long time, I thought. But in a relationship, with people, at least, you have to be there for the other person, to understand them, to talk to them, to have fun, to love, to enjoy one another's company, and this goes for friends, family, anybody. Then why should this 'god' I know nothing about be an exception? He never shows himself, never talks, apparently he works in mysterious ways but I've never had a good friend be 'mysterious'. I tried so many ways to see the signs of 'him' but I could never see anything. I prayed for months and years and nothing happened. No comfort. No love. No God.

So I stopped believing, even when I though I had a relationship with God, which I found out was totally non-existent.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

Foh_Teej said:


> I have asked a few people from this site and others to ask their fairy man to prove himself to me by printing off a list of VIN numbers from vehicles I've owned. It prints when I need it to but your useless god can't print anything yet. This seems like an easy task for a all knowing super omnipotent god. Until you can demonstrate you aren't absolutely destined to the psych ward, start praying hard right now.


When you seek answers to questions you don't search with a biased and closed mind, you search with a humble heart willing to accept the results of what you find. Are you willing to do the same or are you going to come to your own conclusion without exploring both sides equally without pride or contempt?


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

luceo said:


> I don't know, I'm just not ready for a relationship just yet. I mean Jesus is a great guy and all, but I'm just not ready to settle down. I'm sorry Jesus, it's not you, it's me.


It's easy to mock something you don't understand. It takes more strength and wisdom to actually look into the matter.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> I had a relationship with 'god', for a long time, I thought. But in a relationship, with people, at least, you have to be there for the other person, to understand them, to talk to them, to have fun, to love, to enjoy one another's company, and this goes for friends, family, anybody. Then why should this 'god' I know nothing about be an exception? He never shows himself, never talks, apparently he works in mysterious ways but I've never had a good friend be 'mysterious'. I tried so many ways to see the signs of 'him' but I could never see anything. I prayed for months and years and nothing happened. No comfort. No love. No God.
> 
> So I stopped believing, even when I though I had a relationship with God, which I found out was totally non-existent.


I had the exact same experience as you. I had this "faith" but nothing ever seemed to happen. The problem was me and I believe I can help you get past what I did to actually enter into a relationship with him. This relationship is exactly as you said, he speaks to you, you speak to him, he understands you and is there for you when you need him. He will be as clear to you as I speak to you today. If you are willing to listen I can show you.


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> It's easy to mock something you don't understand. It takes more strength and wisdom to actually look into the matter.


I bet they used their strength and wisdow to look in to the matter and then realised how much nonsense it is so are free to now mock it if they wish.

Theism is very easy to understand, and therefore very easy to dismiss.


----------



## fredbloggs02

jonny neurotic said:


> I think it is safe to say that there are people on both sides who have this attitude. I have no problem with people believing fairytales but I also don't see the problem with trying to get others to question their beliefs, bare in mind that religious people are the ones who generally assume moral superiority an blame godlessness for all the evils in the world yet they are the ones most likely to want to interfere in peoples personal lives. However, I did find the OP rather gratuitous and wanting of substance.
> 
> My main concern is for those who I care about and the possibility that they could succumb to the preachings of some religious nutbag and never live a truly satisfying life, always allowing their super-ego to restrict them and bind them to a dogmatic lifestyle of self denial and puritanical self flagellation, or, if they can rationalise sinful behaviour as so many religious people do, project their percieved sinful nature onto those who do not share their beliefs, adversly effecting the relationships they have with other human beings. I have first hand experience of fundimentalist Christianity and it is abhorent to any reasonably minded person.
> 
> To question ones beliefs is integral to self-improvement. CBT would simply not work if the individual is not willing to question their feelings yet Christianity teaches that one should think more with ones heart and less with ones head. This is madness. The one thing that sets us apart from all other animals is our capacity to think things through, plan ahead and alter our emotions through rationality to achieve our goals and be satisfied with our selves, and religion is an impediment to us realising our full, human potential.
> 
> Paranoid people never question their feelings. Rational people always question their feelings. The proof of Gods existence almost always cited by religious people is that they "feel" Gods love. Paranoid delusions aren't always painful, but that doesn't make them any less delusional. It's just a feeling...


Whilst I agree with most of what you said, purposeless self-flagellation and restricting conscience are things I'd never allow someone to infect a loved with with, I don't understand the distinction between heart and mind; surely they are both part of the same system. Call me paranoid but the more I've questioned, the less clear to me the distinction between heart and mind has become. You sound like you think you could distinguish the two, or perhaps you just know that? I don't know. Help me out here. You just know with the heart? With the mind, do you ever reach knowing? Do you advocate that path to truth because you feel tentative knowing and knowledge is as far as man should or can reach?.. You feel questioning is good for people because it allows them to follow themselves? To question authority is empowering? I've never understood what people meant when they've said this. I know there are processes that appear disinterested; but my being is never lost in the process, it remains subdued inside myself, or so it feels to me. The mind doesn't emphasize the heart? A disinterested approach to discerning truth?... I don't entirely understand what people mean when they associate pure reason with the death toll during the French revolution either, it really does not make sense to me. To reduce people to numbers dehumanizes victim and executioner?.. I suppose that unsettles me too, that people can become so impassioned their ideals embrace a system and see each individual through translucent water. Would that necessarily include themselves too? If so that seems a self-effacing ideology, to allow mind to take precedence over heart. Is that possible, to disassociate from our senses through thought? What sort of person favours that path to truth?

This distinction to me isn't as straightforward as it's made out to be. It seems to me to question should be to pick knowing apart. Perhaps some people are so constituted that they are incapable of doing that, I don't see why they should be looked down upon or assumed to be under an illusion for that. It could be that I am more capable of pure reason than I avow; or perhaps pure reason veils knowing with the disinterested appearance we are taught to associate with objectivity, I don't know. I suspect myself of that.


----------



## Fenren

I wish I still believed, you can never be truly alone with God in your life.


----------



## ithinkjesusiscool

laura024 said:


> Trying to convince a Christian that they're wrong is futile.


:clap


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> I bet they used their strength and wisdow to look in to the matter and then realised how much nonsense it is so are free to now mock it if they wish.
> 
> Theism is very easy to understand, and therefore very easy to dismiss.


The way they look into the matter is not the correct way. Just because something does not make sense to you does not mean it is not true. Why not listen to those who claim to know the truth and how to find it?


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

Jigirk said:


> I wish I still believed, you can never be truly alone with God in your life.


What changed your mind?


----------



## jonny neurotic

fredbloggs02 said:


> Whilst I agree with most of what you said, purposeless self-flagellation and restricting conscience are things I'd never allow someone to infect a loved with with, I don't understand the distinction between heart and mind; surely they are both part of the same system. Call me paranoid but the more I've questioned, the less clear to me the distinction between heart and mind has become. You sound like you think you could distinguish the two, or perhaps you just know that? I don't know. Help me out here. You just know with the heart? With the mind, do you ever reach knowing? Do you advocate that path to truth because you feel tentative knowing and knowledge is as far as man should or can reach?.. You feel questioning is good for people because it allows them to follow themselves? To question authority is empowering? I've never understood what people meant when they've said this. I know there are processes that appear disinterested; but my being is never lost in the process, it remains subdued inside myself, or so it feels to me. The mind doesn't emphasize the heart? A disinterested approach to discerning truth?... I don't entirely understand what people mean when they associate pure reason with the death toll during the French revolution either, it really does not make sense to me. To reduce people to numbers dehumanizes victim and executioner?.. I suppose that unsettles me too, that people can become so impassioned their ideals embrace a system and see each individual through translucent water. Would that necessarily include themselves too? If so that seems a self-effacing ideology, to allow mind to take precedence over heart. Is that possible, to disassociate from our senses through thought? What sort of person favours that path to truth?
> 
> This distinction to me isn't as straightforward as it's made out to be. It seems to me to question should be to pick knowing apart. Perhaps some people are so constituted that they are incapable of doing that, I don't see why they should be looked down upon or assumed to be under an illusion for that. It could be that I am more capable of pure reason than I avow; or perhaps pure reason veils knowing with the disinterested appearance we are taught to associate with objectivity, I don't know. I suspect myself of that.


TBH I skimmed the latter half of that. Perhaps you may like to work on ordering your writing into paragraphs. I have difficulty concentrating on a page full of letters.

To answer the first half in detail; I never said that we should not allow our intuition to guide us but rather that I want to add that when we get to where we are going we should use reason to determine why we are there. That is what we have that animals don't: the capacity for rational thought.

Only through finding the balance between reason and intuition can we find true wisdom. I have listened to some pentecostal preachers and they would rather we only think with our hearts. Therefor not accept scientific theories because of scripture. Therefor necessitating self-referential ideation in order to resolve cognitive dissonance. Only a few millimetres away from full blown paranoia.

No, religion is not good for peoples mental health. If the medical establishment wishes to warn against using cannabis on the grounds that it may have an infinitesimal chance of setting of schizophrenia in a very small percentage of the population then it should be their moral duty to warn against religion...


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> The way they look into the matter is not the correct way.


So using logic and reason based on evidence isn't the correct way? What is the correct way in your opinion?



> Just because something does not make sense to you does not mean it is not true.


When that something is religious belief then it's as likely as being true as fairies living at the bottom of the garden.



> Why not listen to those who claim to know the truth and how to find it?


I listen to those who claim to know the closest to truth we currently can based on the evidence we have, as I trust them to know how to find it as they are qualified and credible.

Anyone who is saying they know the truth based on archaic scripts is instantly dismissed very very easily.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> So using logic and reason based on evidence isn't the correct way? What is the correct way in your opinion?
> 
> When that something is religious belief then it's as likely as being true as fairies living at the bottom of the garden.
> 
> I listen to those who claim to know the closest to truth we currently can based on the evidence we have, as I trust them to know how to find it as they are qualified and credible.
> 
> Anyone who is saying they know the truth based on archaic scripts is instantly dismissed very very easily.


Can you prove God does not exist? No. Therefore there is a possibility he could however unlikely as you believe. With such high stakes and such a large following of believers it is worth looking into.

The correct way is to listen to the words written in the bible which tell you how to find God. If God is not the author then nothing will happen as you claim but if he does he must exist. The key is to apply the method God says in which to approach him not mans way. If God is a supernatural being he is not bound to the natural. Therefore the method of reaching him may be supernatural.

The truth is not the scripts. The scripts point to the truth which is Jesus. Christians don't base their faith on writings but *a real relationship *with Jesus one on one. This is what separates Christians from every other religion. The Holy Spirit.


----------



## Fenren

ManOnTheMOON said:


> What changed your mind?


Knowledge, history, nature, other life on this planet and our place within it. Mainly studying Christianities origins though and reading the bible and questioning it's facts.

Seeing what Gods agenda is, thinking maybe it's just made up from a mans mind in the middle-east as means of control and oppression and to extend their realms in the name of their "God". As well as order, growth and the birth of modern civilization under a common belief to help them thrive and push forward in ways they never would have without religion.

Questioning the origins of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, Christianity and Islam are branches and maybe false ones off an even bigger false tress of Judaism. Jesus preached and people believed, they believed Mary was a virgin, they believed he could heal the sick ect.

Muhammad went off alone in a cave for many days then came back and said God spoke to him through Gabriel the angel and again people believed. And those who refused to believe were murdered, in all the above faiths at the beginning.

Increased self-awareness of an evolved brain, made primitive man question what happens when they die and the purpose of everything in their limited world maybe. God came from imagination as a natural step, but that belief a few thousand years later is stunting our advancement. God will become redundant, once we become much more technologically equipped to be able to see what the source of our universe is. We are still primitive and stuck in 3 dimensions and will probably go extinct before we know anything.

I asked myself what is God, why is he so egotistical and emotionally insecure to want our love back so badly? Could a flawed being create everything everywhere? If I could somehow nuke the world and kill everyone but me, would God appear and tell me off? Or would nothing happen because nothing was ever there? I think the latter.

I don't need to believe it anymore, it's all a lie to me even though I'd maybe feel more strength and succeed with the added crutch. As well as acceptance and closeness from others who share the same faith. Life could be richer, but it could be rich or just as rich if I believed in myself more.


----------



## Killer2121

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> I don't think of atheists and religious people being similar at all. Religious people shrug off arguments with saying like, "You can prove he's NOT real," or "Sometimes you have to have faith," while atheists tend to base their arguments off of fact and logic. I can understand why atheists would think themselves smarter, only because we've all heard those Christians that don't care about math/science/history only because 'jesus will tell them everything in heaven', so they become unmotivated to learn. Not saying that all theists are like this. Just some. And yes, I'm 14, but how again is that relevant?


You are very wrong. Religious people just like atheists and most people are biased, somewhat brainwashed and do not have any understand of logic, facts and reasoning.

Atheists tend to base their arguments off of logic? Is that a joke? The common atheist doesn't have any knowledge of any facts or knowledge. Simply having a disbelief in God does not make you any smarter or enhance your reasoning skills at all. I'm pretty sure most atheists have a solid understanding of math/science :lol. Believing in math and science DOES NOT mean you understand or can explain it. What is this BS that Christians don't believe in or use science and math? I think you are generalizing all Christians on a few religious idiots.

From what I've seen on the internet, the common atheists will just point to religion as being fake, a tool to control the masses, jesus was not real, science is the only way to truth among other things... How the hell are these valid arguments? They haven't explained anything, they've just made a statement. It's the exact same as the typical Christian comment you made.

And your age does matter. Are you even in high school? Most people with such strong opinions at your age just want to prove themselves to someone. You haven't even experienced the high school education or the world yet.

Age: 14

Age: 14


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

Jigirk said:


> I don't need to believe it anymore, it's all a lie to me even though I'd maybe feel more strength and succeed with the added crutch. As well as acceptance and closeness from others who share the same faith. Life could be richer, but it could be rich or just as rich if I believed in myself more.


Your problem is the same one as the previous person I talked to in this post aswell as myself in the past. You never were a christian because you never had a relationship with Christ. The truth is not in the ideology, it is in the relationship through the holy spirit. What you need to do is first seek that relationship before you make a final conclusion. I can show you how to begin one so that God will speak to you.


----------



## luceo

ugh1979 said:


> I bet they used their strength and wisdow to look in to the matter and then realised how much nonsense it is so are free to now mock it if they wish.
> 
> Theism is very easy to understand, and therefore very easy to dismiss.


Yeah, that was pretty much it. Despite ManOnTheMOON's assumptions, I have looked into religion a lot, only it brought me to a different conclusion to the one he reached. It's a shame he can't comprehend this.

Plus I have a slight problem with theists even being in the atheist/agnostic support forum, let alone trying to debate.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> I can show you how to begin one so that God will speak to you.


Please do.


----------



## Foh_Teej

ManOnTheMOON said:


> When you seek answers to questions you don't search with a biased and closed mind, you search with a humble heart willing to accept the results of what you find. Are you willing to do the same or are you going to come to your own conclusion without exploring both sides equally without pride or contempt?


Well seeing that I was infact a christian for most of my life, your point is a bit wanting. However, I hardly desire 'answers' with a prerequisite of having a 'humble heart'--whatever that even means. Read my sig...that sums up my "exploration" of both sides. I think Vishnu is just playing with your mind...I mean for **** sake, he is blue and has 4 arms!


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

Foh_Teej said:


> Well seeing that I was infact a christian for most of my life, your point is a bit wanting. However, I hardly desire 'answers' with a prerequisite of having a 'humble heart'--whatever that even means. Read my sig...that sums up my "exploration" of both sides. I think Vishnu is just playing with your mind...I mean for **** sake, he is blue and has 4 arms!


So you had a relationship with Jesus?


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

luceo said:


> Yeah, that was pretty much it. Despite ManOnTheMOON's assumptions, I have looked into religion a lot, only it brought me to a different conclusion to the one he reached. It's a shame he can't comprehend this.
> 
> Plus I have a slight problem with theists even being in the atheist/agnostic support forum, let alone trying to debate.
> 
> Please do.


Have you looked into starting a relationship with Jesus though? If not you haven't really done anything. I know this because if you had you would have found him. I can comprehend what you are saying because I was once the same. Sorry if my post sounded insulting.

The op's comment clearly is directed at Christians on this site.

If you want to know if Jesus is real, all you need to do is ask him. Do this sincerely from the heart without contempt or bias but with an open mind in search of truth. Just say this.

*"God if you are real, if your son was Jesus who died for my sins, please reveal yourself to me*."

Its that simple. When you do this he will reveal himself to you.
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Revelations 3:20 Just open the door and see for yourself.


----------



## luceo

Yeah, I was at a low place and was looking for something, _anything_, for guidance. Tried religion but all I got was emptiness. Like I said, I reached a different conclusion to you.

And it's cool, you don't need to apologise for sounding insulting - I was pretty rude in the first place.


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> Can you prove God does not exist? No.


Which god? Mankind has defined thousands. I'll assume your god, but to that i'd reply that I can't prove a negative.



> Therefore there is a possibility he could however unlikely as you believe.


 While I can't say there is zero chance of a deity existing, I don't agree there is any chance god as defined by the Abrahamic religions exists.



> With such high stakes and such a large following of believers it is worth looking into.


With such little chance i'd be as well making up my own religion. :lol



> The correct way is to listen to the words written in the bible which tell you how to find God. If God is not the author then nothing will happen as you claim


There are hundreds of thousands of reports of people who find out nothing happens even after giving it their absoulture commitment, and you are in no place to say they didn't.



> but if he does he must exist.


No he doesn't. I might just be hearing what I want to hear? We know from psychiatric reports that people can have delusions when they want to believe something enough (it doesn't have to be of a religious nature). Or I might have some other mental disorder? Temporal lobe epilepsy or schizophrenia? All have been medically diagnosed in some of those who have said they hear god so certainly can't be ruled out.



> The truth is not the scripts.


That much we agree on.



> The scripts point to the truth which is Jesus.


So how are they not the truth if they point to what you call a truth?



> Christians don't base their faith on writings but *a real relationship *with Jesus one on one.


You can't talk for all Christians, and are in no place to say that someone who has truly tried their best and commited their lives to trying to get that relationship but failed to find it isn't a Christian. A Christian is simply someone who adheres to Christianity.



> This is what separates Christians from every other religion. The Holy Spirit.


Yeah most religions say they have something 'magic' that seperates them for every other religion.

There is no reason I should believe any of them.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> You can't talk for all Christians, and are in no place to say that someone who has truly tried their best and commited their lives to trying to get that relationship but failed to find it isn't a Christian. A Christian is simply someone who adheres to Christianity.
> 
> Yeah most religions say they have something 'magic' that seperates them for every other religion.
> 
> There is no reason I should believe any of them.


You are incorrect. I never claimed to speak for anyone. I am not speaking from my own authority. I am speaking from the Bible.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:5)
_
"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Rom. 8:11)_

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you." ... "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose _it_ to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose _it_ to you." John 16:7

There are many more scriptures but I think you get the point. I am not here to ridicule anyone. I was once like them. I am here to tell them how I was changed and how they can be too.

All I am asking you to do is see for yourself. It's not about anyone elses experience, it is about you. If anything I say is not true feel free to call me a liar but first see for yourself. I know it doesn't make sense to you and seems ridiculous but all I am asking you to do is give me the benefit of the doubt. Any credible scientist test the hypothesis before they come to a conclusion about anything. If you are really in search of truth you will do the same.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

luceo said:


> Yeah, I was at a low place and was looking for something, _anything_, for guidance. Tried religion but all I got was emptiness. Like I said, I reached a different conclusion to you.
> 
> And it's cool, you don't need to apologise for sounding insulting - I was pretty rude in the first place.


Do me a favor brother. Give it one more chance. Simply ask that question which I posted previously in the way described and you will be filled.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20


----------



## Fruitcake

Christians don't listen to my logic so I beat them and have faith that it will help them to see the error of their ways.


----------



## Gurosan

There was one really cool and open minded christian lady i met here on this site that didn't try to change my 'viewpoint' on 'life after death' nor some other stuff that most people cannot wrap they're heads around so they just counter my idea with utter bullcrap...Not her, she didn't even tried to talk me into christianity or anything.
Best i gather from her is:

Belive in god and don't buy into whole 'religion' part. /now my idea starts/ God is spiritual concept and is all you need to place your hopes onto, no need to add all the focus pocus and other 'might as well be made up to control masses of people' to your belief in god and his power. Belive in god and..well i cannot tell you what he will do for you cause as i have heard ' god works in mysterious ways' so he will work something out just for you... Religion as community is just a scheme to robb you blind.

I would not write this kind of stuff if it weren't for that special christian lady out there minding her daily life with god in her hear. So this post goes in her honour!


----------



## FireIsTheCleanser

Fruitcake said:


> Christians don't listen to my logic so I beat them and have faith that it will help them to see the error of their ways.


Does that mean I can do the same to you guys?


----------



## Rossy

Too many if you ask me,poor people getting brainwashed to believe in something that's just not there.


----------



## Foh_Teej

ManOnTheMOON said:


> So you had a relationship with Jesus?


Yeah. It was identical to my childhood relationship with Santa Claus.


----------



## Killer2121

Foh_Teej said:


> Yeah. It was identical to my childhood relationship with Santa Claus.


Strong signature to recent posts ratio.

Do you only come on this forum to post on religion and atheism? If someone had a signature based on Christianity, I bet you would be outraged.


----------



## Foh_Teej

Killer2121 said:


> Strong signature to recent posts ratio.
> 
> Do you only come on this forum to post on religion and atheism?
> 
> If someone had a signature based on Christianity, I bet you would be outraged.


To that, I owe you no explanation. However, your bet would be incorrect.


----------



## Killer2121

Foh_Teej said:


> To that, I owe you no explanation. However, your bet would be incorrect.


I actually think that's an offensive sig and really not needed for a SA forum, but you take it to be a place where you can discuss religion/atheism only so W/e. Rofl.


----------



## Fruitcake

FireIsTheCleanser said:


> Does that mean I can do the same to you guys?


Since you're incapable of using logic to make your point instead, I can see why you would want to.
Whether you can depends on whether you live by the Bible, and which parts of it you choose to live by. Some parts say I should be killed; others say you should take the beating and make it easier for me to beat you. I guess, as always, you get to decide yourself rather than following scripture.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

Foh_Teej said:


> Yeah. It was identical to my childhood relationship with Santa Claus.


If you never had a relationship with Jesus you were never a Christian. If you ask him he will come to you as real as I am right now.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

Gurosan said:


> There was one really cool and open minded christian lady i met here on this site that didn't try to change my 'viewpoint' on 'life after death' nor some other stuff that most people cannot wrap they're heads around so they just counter my idea with utter bullcrap...Not her, she didn't even tried to talk me into christianity or anything.
> Best i gather from her is:
> 
> Belive in god and don't buy into whole 'religion' part. /now my idea starts/ God is spiritual concept and is all you need to place your hopes onto, no need to add all the focus pocus and other 'might as well be made up to control masses of people' to your belief in god and his power. Belive in god and..well i cannot tell you what he will do for you cause as i have heard ' god works in mysterious ways' so he will work something out just for you... Religion as community is just a scheme to robb you blind.
> 
> I would not write this kind of stuff if it weren't for that special christian lady out there minding her daily life with god in her hear. So this post goes in her honour!


Out of all the atheists here you seem to have the closest idea of what Christianity is.


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> You are incorrect. I never claimed to speak for anyone. I am not speaking from my own authority. I am speaking from the Bible.


Then you should have put the word 'some' in front of the word 'Christians' in your statement that I was replying to.



> I am not here to ridicule anyone. I was once like them. I am here to tell them how I was changed and how they can be too.
> 
> All I am asking you to do is see for yourself. It's not about anyone elses experience, it is about you. If anything I say is not true feel free to call me a liar but first see for yourself. I know it doesn't make sense to you and seems ridiculous but all I am asking you to do is give me the benefit of the doubt. Any credible scientist test the hypothesis before they come to a conclusion about anything. If you are really in search of truth you will do the same.


I won't give you the benefit of the doubt, as I doubt what you are saying very much.

Your hypothesis is easily dismissed by me using the available data so I don't need to experience it for myself to discredit it. Any credible scientist builds on the validated work of others rather than starting again from scratch.


----------



## FireIsTheCleanser

Fruitcake said:


> Since you're incapable of using logic to make your point instead, I can see why you would want to.
> Whether you can depends on whether you live by the Bible, and which parts of it you choose to live by. Some parts say I should be killed; others say you should take the beating and make it easier for me to beat you. I guess, as always, you get to decide yourself rather than following scripture.


Swell. Say, where do you live?


----------



## Fruitcake

FireIsTheCleanser said:


> Swell. Say, where do you live?


In Wellington. If you come over we can have ourselves a duel.


----------



## FireIsTheCleanser

Fruitcake said:


> In Wellington. If you come over we can have ourselves a duel.


A duel, that sounds awesome, I do hope you mean with rapiers or with revolvers.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> Then you should have put the word 'some' in front of the word 'Christians' in your statement that I was replying to.
> 
> I won't give you the benefit of the doubt, as I doubt what you are saying very much.
> 
> Your hypothesis is easily dismissed by me using the available data so I don't need to experience it for myself to discredit it. Any credible scientist builds on the validated work of others rather than starting again from scratch.


? The bible speaks for all Christians.

Yes and the bible is the work of others. I think you were confused by my analogy of a scientific study. I am speaking in the spiritual context. Anyways its been nice talking to you. I just wanted to share this with you, thanks for listening. I encourage you to simply ask God if he exists with a humble heart in search of truth. Take care.


----------



## Foh_Teej

ManOnTheMOON said:


> If you never had a relationship with Jesus you were never a Christian.


You are of no authority to gauge my relationships with anyone--imaginary or otherwise.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> If you ask him he will come to you as real as I am right now.


I tried but nothing happened. I suppose I cannot humble my heart to Jesus' satisfaction. However, you appear like you have a direct line to him. How about YOU ask your god to print something on my printer. Look, I'll accept in a heart beat if there is ANY kind of evidence that can be substantiated. That will be difficult, however, if he continues to be a little *****. If you care for my soul you'll pray to have him show a sign. Have him send me a text or something...he should already have my number right?


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

Foh_Teej said:


> You are of no authority to gauge my relationships with anyone--imaginary or otherwise.
> 
> I tried but nothing happened. I suppose I cannot humble my heart to Jesus' satisfaction. However, you appear like you have a direct line to him. How about YOU ask your god to print something on my printer. Look, I'll accept in a heart beat if there is ANY kind of evidence that can be substantiated. That will be difficult, however, if he continues to be a little *****. If you care for my soul you'll pray to have him show a sign. Have him send me a text or something...he should already have my number right?


How do you have a relationship with someone you don't know and have never heard speak to you? I speak to God, he answers me. He guides me and is in my presence.

You can humble your heart. If it doesn't make sense to you, tell him that, be truthful. As long as you really want to know and are open minded to the idea that he may exist he will answer you guaranteed. God is not one to be put to the test. He does not bow to our desires. You don't demand, you request. If you are willing to search though I will pray for you.


----------



## Foh_Teej

ManOnTheMOON said:


> How do you have a relationship with someone you don't know and have never heard speak to you?


Well see that's the kicker ain'it it? Why would anyone seek out a relationship with a being they have never heard speak to them? If I can't distinguish between your god and the non existent, why would I even consider getting to know whatever you think you talk to?



ManOnTheMOON said:


> I speak to God, he answers me. He guides me and is in my presence.


There is certainly an earthly explanation for this--check the DSM.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> You can humble your heart. If it doesn't make sense to you, tell him that, be truthful. As long as you really want to know and are open minded to the idea that he may exist he will answer you guaranteed.


There was a point in my life where I was gullible and naive. Even when I was at the height of devotion to this faith, this god never actually manifested himself outside of my own imagination. I'm certain you already have an explanation for this. Wodan tells me my mind wasn't open enough and my heart wasn't soft enough.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> God is not one to be put to the test.


My sister could text me at age 4. I certainly didn't think this was too much for a god. On that note, what does god need with a starship anyway?



ManOnTheMOON said:


> He does not bow to our desires.


I have yet to see evidence he does anything at all.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> You don't demand, you request.


Ok god, will you please send me a text message with the VIN number of every vehicle I've owned?



ManOnTheMOON said:


> If you are willing to search though I will pray for you.


I did my searching; he failed to manifest in any perceivable way. However, you should triple up on your praying if you think it actually works.


----------



## straightarrows

Jigirk said:


> Knowledge, history, nature, other life on this planet and our place within it. Mainly studying Christianities origins though and reading the bible and questioning it's facts.
> 
> Seeing what Gods agenda is, thinking maybe it's just made up from a mans mind in the middle-east as means of control and oppression and to extend their realms in the name of their "God". As well as order, growth and the birth of modern civilization under a common belief to help them thrive and push forward in ways they never would have without religion.
> 
> Questioning the origins of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, Christianity and Islam are branches and maybe false ones off an even bigger false tress of Judaism. Jesus preached and people believed, they believed Mary was a virgin, they believed he could heal the sick ect.
> 
> Muhammad went off alone in a cave for many days then came back and said God spoke to him through Gabriel the angel and again people believed. And those who refused to believe were murdered, in all the above faiths at the beginning.
> 
> Increased self-awareness of an evolved brain, made primitive man question what happens when they die and the purpose of everything in their limited world maybe. God came from imagination as a natural step, but that belief a few thousand years later is stunting our advancement. God will become redundant, once we become much more technologically equipped to be able to see what the source of our universe is. We are still primitive and stuck in 3 dimensions and will probably go extinct before we know anything.
> 
> I asked myself what is God, why is he so egotistical and emotionally insecure to want our love back so badly? Could a flawed being create everything everywhere? If I could somehow nuke the world and kill everyone but me, would God appear and tell me off? Or would nothing happen because nothing was ever there? I think the latter.
> 
> I don't need to believe it anymore, it's all a lie to me even though I'd maybe feel more strength and succeed with the added crutch. As well as acceptance and closeness from others who share the same faith. Life could be richer, but it could be rich or just as rich if I believed in myself more.


and that what he did!!

nope, they killed every man & woman who coverted to islam!.. in case u don't know his followers moved to Africa, and later to madinah

it seems u didn't read the stoires of Moses and Jesus followers and how they suffered! killed!

*if there is no GOd, so who created **The universe* ?! who created us?!..

BTW, I"m not a lucky guy and god wasn't on side...


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> ? The bible speaks for all Christians.


You said:



> Christians don't base their faith on writings but *a real relationship *with Jesus one on one.


This may be the idealistic reason, but people can still be Christian even if they never manage to have a real relationship with Jesus.

From what i've read so far from you it sounds like you are saying anyone who hasn't had a real relationship with Jesus isn't a Christian, which just isn't true. A relationship with Jesus isn't mandatory. No Christian gets ostracised if they don't have the kind of relationship you think you have with Jesus.



> Yes and the bible is the work of others.


I'm not sure what this was in reference to but yes I agree, it was the work of 'others'. I.e. various mortal men, and not a god.



> I think you were confused by my analogy of a scientific study. I am speaking in the spiritual context.


I don't think I was. I think you are confused by science. But that's fair enough, it's not for everyone.



> Anyways its been nice talking to you. I just wanted to share this with you, thanks for listening. I encourage you to simply ask God if he exists with a humble heart in search of truth. Take care.


You to. You seem like a very nice person but I feel sad for you. I'm sure you probably do the same of me so there we go.


----------



## wordscancutyoulikeglass

Killer2121 said:


> You are very wrong. Religious people just like atheists and most people are biased, somewhat brainwashed and do not have any understand of logic, facts and reasoning.
> 
> Atheists tend to base their arguments off of logic? Is that a joke?


No, it isn't. A magical higher power than nobody ever see's and you have to have 'BLIND faith' to see is a lot more LOGICAL than science, facts, thing we can SEE, obviously.



Killer2121 said:


> The common atheist doesn't have any knowledge of any facts or knowledge.


That statement, in itself, is ridiculous in any context. Of course, as human beings, atheists have knowledge of facts. People couldn't physically survive without being slightly aware of facts, for if we didn't, we'd be something similar to a blade of grass, or a tree.



Killer2121 said:


> Simply having a disbelief in God does not make you any smarter or enhance your reasoning skills at all.


True.



Killer2121 said:


> I'm pretty sure most atheists have a solid understanding of math/science :lol.


Okay, so now you're admitting that we have an understanding of facts. You're just countering yourself. Get your argument together before you try to tell me how things are



Killer2121 said:


> Believing in math and science DOES NOT mean you understand or can explain it. What is this BS that Christians don't believe in or use science and math? I think you are generalizing all Christians on a few religious idiots.


Typically, if you 'believe' in science (it's pretty hard not to if you have any understanding of what it's about) then you know a bit about it or you're as stupid as anyone else who believes anything that they hear without first analyzing. Also, this BS comes from the 30 people than take up my extended and immediate family, and pretty much every other Christian I've ever encountered, and I deal with Christians as a Christian on a day to day basis. Trust me, I play religious everyday. I know how it is.



Killer2121 said:


> From what I've seen on the internet, the common atheists will just point to religion as being fake, a tool to control the masses, jesus was not real, science is the only way to truth among other things... How the hell are these valid arguments? They haven't explained anything, they've just made a statement. It's the exact same as the typical Christian comment you made.


Ever heard of Socrates? He came up with his own religion to control the masses before Christianity ever formally formed. Think about the dynamics of religions that dominate the world. Christianity, for example. Love your neighbor, be moral, love all, be selfless, do good works, all that stuff to please a God. Why does this God want you to do this stuff? How come religious behavioral standards are so similar to those that society has set? It makes a lot of sense when you look at it from another point of view.



Killer2121 said:


> And your age does matter. Are you even in high school? Most people with such strong opinions at your age just want to prove themselves to someone. You haven't even experienced the high school education or the world yet.


I've been a freshman for about six weeks now. And no, I don't want to prove myself to anyone. All I want to do is try to attempt to explain what I've seen from agnostic eyes, after coming out of the veil of Christianity.



Killer2121 said:


> Age: 14


My age is posted by my name, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to say it again. And if it's really that big of a deal to all of you, I can really hide it from my posts.

Age: 14[/QUOTE]


----------



## Killer2121

wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> No, it isn't. *A magical higher power than nobody ever see's and you have to have 'BLIND faith' to see is a lot more LOGICAL than science, facts, thing we can SEE, obviously.*


What the hell did you just say?



wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> That statement, in itself, is ridiculous in any context. Of course, as human beings, atheists have knowledge of facts. People couldn't physically survive without being slightly aware of facts, for if we didn't, we'd be something similar to a blade of grass, or a tree.


You don't get what I'm saying do you? You see, the reason why people cannot argue properly is because they take one sentence and base the entire argument on it. If you read my post, it was implying that most people are well, stupid to put it short. Most people *including atheists* understand the facts that are given to them, fed to them, stamped in their heads. Most people are very brainwashed, and cannot explain their beliefs or understanding of anything if their life depended on it. I wasn't singling out atheists.

Atheists, just like religious people are included in this demographic, *a lot of them*. If I go up to the average atheist on the street and ask them a scientific or philosophical question, their answer will most likely be as equally poor as if I went to the average Christian and challenged their theological beliefs.

True.



wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> Okay, so now you're admitting that we have an understanding of facts. You're just countering yourself. Get your argument together before you try to tell me how things are


Ah, still taking grade 8 English I see. This was a sarcastic comment, as noted by the smiley. It was simply supporting my argument used in the above point I made.

"Simply having a disbelief in God does not make you any smarter or enhance your reasoning skills at all. I'm pretty sure most atheists have a solid understanding of math/science . Believing in math and science DOES NOT mean you understand or can explain it."

You tried to imply that atheists base their arguments off of logic and facts, while I stated that most use petty insults and garbage fed to them by their wingnut websites, just like most other people. Again, you are only 14 so you aren't really experienced in this. When you grow up and begin to think for yourself you will soon realize how much people are influenced by ideas and politics that they don't even know what they are talking about.

Their are atheists who are very smart, their are religious people that are very smart. But to say that atheists only base their arguments off of facts and religious people do not care about math/science, only God is a ridiculous and false generalization.



wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> Typically, if you 'believe' in science (it's pretty hard not to if you have any understanding of what it's about) then you know a bit about it or you're as stupid as anyone else who believes anything that they hear without first analyzing. *Also, this BS comes from the 30 people than take up my extended and immediate family, and pretty much every other Christian I've ever encountered, and I deal with Christians as a Christian on a day to day basis. Trust me, I play religious everyday. I know how it is.*


False. If I believe something, it does not mean I understand it. Belief and understanding are two totally different things girl. If my friend gets into a fight with another guy, I can say I believe my friend is innocent, but I don't really understand what happened, hence I cannot fully explain the situation. You can say you believe in science, but I bet if I asked you the most basic questions on the universe or on evolution you wouldn't know where to start, because *you believe in it, but have not taken the time to understand it*

As for the bolded part, it seems as if you come from a fundamentalist family and you are trying to play the rebel role which is typical at the age of 14.



wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> Ever heard of Socrates? He came up with his own religion to control the masses before Christianity ever formally formed. Think about the dynamics of religions that dominate the world. Christianity, for example. Love your neighbor, be moral, love all, be selfless, do good works, all that stuff to please a God. Why does this God want you to do this stuff? How come religious behavioral standards are so similar to those that society has set? It makes a lot of sense when you look at it from another point of view.


False, false, false. Socrates never had a religion and never came up with one. Socrates was actually on my side, he encouraged people to think for themselves and not fall into the trap of brainwashing. He encouraged people to gain an understanding of their beliefs, of the world around them as they see fit and used logic, facts and reason to back it up.

If you studied any history, you would know that most of the laws, customs, traditions and morals we have today are descended from Christian values and religion. Why does God want you to do this stuff? Because simply, it is the right thing to do, according to Christian doctrine. Treat your fellow man with respect and turn the other cheek; that is the way to defeat anger violence and rage in most cases. God will deal with the wicked.



wordscancutyoulikeglass said:


> My age is posted by my name, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to say it again. And if it's really that big of a deal to all of you, I can really hide it from my posts.


I'm bringing up your age because it clearly is a factor in this discussion and a major hinderance of your understanding of how things work.

I suggest you do not take your age out, that way you have that base to fall back on after people realize how stupid you look.

Age: 14[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> You said:
> 
> This may be the idealistic reason, but people can still be Christian even if they never manage to have a real relationship with Jesus.
> 
> From what i've read so far from you it sounds like you are saying anyone who hasn't had a real relationship with Jesus isn't a Christian, which just isn't true. A relationship with Jesus isn't mandatory. No Christian gets ostracised if they don't have the kind of relationship you think you have with Jesus.
> 
> I'm not sure what this was in reference to but yes I agree, it was the work of 'others'. I.e. various mortal men, and not a god.
> 
> I don't think I was. I think you are confused by science. But that's fair enough, it's not for everyone.
> 
> You to. You seem like a very nice person but I feel sad for you. I'm sure you probably do the same of me so there we go.


The Bible contains the commands of God and tells us about him yet it is not the basis of Christianity. Jesus is.

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." "Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." John 14:21

If you have not received the holy spirit and if he has not revealed himself to you then how can you be a christian? Once again these are not my words but the words of God.

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And *if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.*" Romans 8:9


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> The Bible contains the commands of God and tells us about him yet it is not the basis of Christianity. Jesus is.
> 
> "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." "Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." John 14:21
> 
> If you have not received the holy spirit and if he has not revealed himself to you then how can you be a christian? Once again these are not my words but the words of God.


Where in the scripture does it state that someone *has * to have received the holy spirit and know it to be a Christian?



> "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And *if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.*" Romans 8:9


OK well try telling that to the millions of people who try very hard to be Christians but never gain this relationship you speak of. :blank


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

Foh_Teej said:


> Well see that's the kicker ain'it it? Why would anyone seek out a relationship with a being they have never heard speak to them? If I can't distinguish between your god and the non existent, why would I even consider getting to know whatever you think you talk to?
> 
> There is certainly an earthly explanation for this--check the DSM.
> 
> There was a point in my life where I was gullible and naive. Even when I was at the height of devotion to this faith, this god never actually manifested himself outside of my own imagination. I'm certain you already have an explanation for this. Wodan tells me my mind wasn't open enough and my heart wasn't soft enough.
> 
> My sister could text me at age 4. I certainly didn't think this was too much for a god. On that note, what does god need with a starship anyway?
> 
> I have yet to see evidence he does anything at all.
> 
> Ok god, will you please send me a text message with the VIN number of every vehicle I've owned?
> 
> I did my searching; he failed to manifest in any perceivable way. However, you should triple up on your praying if you think it actually works.


If you have never had a relationship with him don't claim to be a former Christian because that is a requirement. That was my point.

The thing is you can distinguish between him. All you have to do is ask. He will provide the proof you need. Christians actually speak to God and he replies.

You may have searched in your own way but how do you expect to find him without the directions he has provided?


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> If you have never had a relationship with him don't claim to be a former Christian because that is a requirement. That was my point.


You simply can't say that! You have right to say others who try their very best to be Christians but never find the relationship you do are not Christians.

What are they then? Christians in waiting? Pre-Christians?



> The thing is you can distinguish between him. All you have to do is ask. He will provide the proof you need. Christians actually speak to God and he replies.


I'm sure some people genuinely believe god does actually 'speak' to them, but if they are hearing 3rd party voices in their head then i'd say they have a possible schizophrenic condition.



> You may have searched in your own way but how do you expect to find him without the directions he has provided?


All 'his' directions lead to archaic stories, nonsense, whims and contradictions from what I can see.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> Where in the scripture does it state that someone *has * to have received the holy spirit and know it to be a Christian?
> 
> OK well try telling that to the millions of people who try very hard to be Christians but never gain this relationship you speak of. :blank


Yeah its scary. I was once one of them. Read this verse.

Mathew 7
*21*"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven _will enter._ *22*"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' *23*"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Alot of them are following rituals, or tradition, or simply are putting up a front by going to church and ignoring his commands the rest of the week. They have not really sought him in their hearts.

You have the opportunity right now to see what they haven't. You have spoken to me for this long, simply ask the question. Yes I could be wrong but so could you. If it comes down to one simple question I think its worth the few minutes of your life to do this and prove this once and for all either way.


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> Yeah its scary. I was once one of them. Read this verse.
> 
> Mathew 7
> *21*"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven _will enter._ *22*"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' *23*"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


I'm still not seeing where it says people who have tried and failed to have a relationship with Jesus are not Christians.



> Alot of them are following rituals, or tradition, or simply are putting up a front by going to church and ignoring his commands the rest of the week. They have not really sought him in their hearts.


Of course there are many that like that, but there are also many who have tried to open their hearts to him and have had nothing in return.

Are you going to say they were all just doing it wrong or something?



> You have the opportunity right now to see what they haven't. You have spoken to me for this long, simply ask the question. Yes I could be wrong but so could you. If it comes down to one simple question I think its worth the few minutes of your life to do this and prove this once and for all either way.


What do you want me to ask/what is the question??


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> You simply can't say that! You have right to say others who try their very best to be Christians but never find the relationship you do are not Christians.
> 
> What are they then? Christians in waiting? Pre-Christians?
> 
> I'm sure some people genuinely believe god does actually 'speak' to them, but if they are hearing 3rd party voices in their head then i'd say they have a possible schizophrenic condition.
> 
> All 'his' directions lead to archaic stories, nonsense, whims and contradictions from what I can see.


It's not me saying it! This is just how it is. They are not Christians. Their problem is they have not truly searched for him with all their heart.

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And *if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.*" Romans 8:9

Jerimiah 29
*13*'You will seek Me and find _Me_ when you search for Me with all your heart. *14*'I will be found by you,' declares the LORD,

He doesn't speak simply with voices. He speaks through the bible, through dreams, through the tv. It could be anything.

Everything is nonsense until it is proven true. You can't simply write something off because you don't understand it.


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> I'm still not seeing where it says people who have tried and failed to have a relationship with Jesus are not Christians.
> 
> Of course there are many that like that, but there are also many who have tried to open their hearts to him and have had nothing in return.
> 
> Are you going to say they were all just doing it wrong or something?
> 
> What do you want me to ask/what is the question??


I can't speak for them or judge them, God knows their hearts. If they're hearts are right he promises to reveal himself.

Just say this. Right now, just close your eyes. With a humble heart just ask. "God if you exist, if your son is Jesus Christ who died for my sins, please reveal yourself to me. You know this logically makes no sense to me, but if there is any truth in this I would like to know you."


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> It's not me saying it! This is just how it is. They are not Christians. Their problem is they have not truly searched for him with all their heart.


It's very much *you *saying it. You and *your *interpretation.

It's ridiculous to say everyone who has tried and failed hasn't 'done it properly'! :roll



> "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And *if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.*" Romans 8:9
> 
> Jerimiah 29
> *13*'You will seek Me and find _Me_ when you search for Me with all your heart. *14*'I will be found by you,' declares the LORD,
> 
> He doesn't speak simply with voices. He speaks through the bible, through dreams, through the tv. It could be anything.


Yeah take that in isolation and psychiatrists will deem it a serious mental health issue. Worrying.

Dead people speaking to you through the TV is never a particularly healthy mind.



> Everything is nonsense until it is proven true.


What you just said is absolute nonsense. We can't discover what is true without first making hypothesis. Those hypothesis are not total nonsense.



> You can't simply write something off because you don't understand it.


I don't see what it is that I haven't understood It's a very simple doctrine. But one I can with up-most certainty believe to be entirely man-made.


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> I can't speak for them or judge them, God knows their hearts. If they're hearts are right he promises to reveal himself.
> 
> Just say this. Right now, just close your eyes. With a humble heart just ask. "God if you exist, if your son is Jesus Christ who died for my sins, please reveal yourself to me. You know this logically makes no sense to me, but if there is any truth in this I would like to know you."


What language do I need to say it in? Also, just so I can picture the relationship what colour skin does Jesus have? Is he a big white guy or a little Middle Eastern Jew?


----------



## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> What language do I need to say it in? Also, just so I can picture the relationship what colour skin does Jesus have? Is he a big white guy or a little Middle Eastern Jew?


Say it however you want, you don't have to picture anyone or anything. As long as its coming from your heart youre okay. I'll be praying right now with you man. Will you pray?


----------



## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> Say it however you want, you don't have to picture anyone or anything. As long as its coming from your heart youre okay. I'll be praying right now with you man. Will you pray?


I need to picture something to speak to. If something is going to communicate back to me I need to have at least a rough visual mental idea of what it is.

You must gave seen him as talk to him loads don't you? So, what's he like?

Tall, short, fat, thin, black, brown, white?


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## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> I need to picture something to speak to. If something is going to communicate back to me I need to have at least a rough visual mental idea of what it is.
> 
> You must gave seen him as talk to him loads don't you? So, what's he like?
> 
> Tall, short, fat, thin, black, brown, white?


I have not seen his image. If you need an image just think of what you think he looks like. I'm sure you have an image of Jesus in your head. Tell me if you're starting so I can pray with you.


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## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> I have not seen his image. If you need an image just think of what you think he looks like. I'm sure you have an image of Jesus in your head. Tell me if you're starting so I can pray with you.


OK. I have a little Arabian looking guy in my head with nice sandals.

How long should I wait for any answer after i've asked your question? Is he usually pretty prompt in getting back, or are there certain times of the day where he's not as busy that I should try?


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## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> OK. I have a little Arabian looking guy in my head with nice sandals.
> 
> How long should I wait for any answer after i've asked your question? Is he usually pretty prompt in getting back, or are there certain times of the day where he's not as busy that I should try?


There's no specific answer for that. He replies on his own time. For me it was a matter of minutes, for others it was a month or perhaps more. The key though is to ask with your heart, after that he will answer. Pray right now, he will answer anytime. I'm going to start praying right now.


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## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> There's no specific answer for that. He replies on his own time. For me it was a matter of minutes, for others it was a month or perhaps more. The key though is to ask with your heart, after that he will answer. Pray right now, he will answer anytime. I'm going to start praying right now.


I take a lot of psychedelic and dissociative recreational drugs, and many times I've had immensely 'spiritual' experiences while in the other realities that say DMT and Ketamine can show me. However i've always came back from them under no illusion that the experiences weren't all in my head.

I can see how this will be any different.

What if he never gets back to me? What if I pray everyday and go to church every week for 80 years and wish with all my might that he will but never does. Am not worthy to call myself a Christian if truly asked but heard nothing?


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## ManOnTheMOON

"God Is Not A Liar" NUMBERS 23:19 

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; _knock, and the door shall be opened_ to you" Mathew 7:7

Any experience you have will be specific, you will know when it happens. It may not be a vision, it may be a person or a situation or a series of events. I need to go to sleep. Will you pray with me right now?


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## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> I take a lot of psychedelic and dissociative recreational drugs, and many times I've had immensely 'spiritual' experiences while in the other realities that say DMT and Ketamine can show me. However i've always came back from them under no illusion that the experiences weren't all in my head.
> 
> I can see how this will be any different.
> 
> What if he never gets back to me? What if I pray everyday and go to church every week for 80 years and wish with all my might that he will but never does. Am not worthy to call myself a Christian if truly asked but heard nothing?


I have to go now, say the prayer, find a bible and read the new testament. Its been nice talking to you.


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## ugh1979

ManOnTheMOON said:


> I have to go now, say the prayer, find a bible and read the new testament. Its been nice talking to you.


You leave too many questions open in your theory for me to legitimately and honestly ask the questions to something I can't sense..


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## Foh_Teej

ManOnTheMOON said:


> If you have never had a relationship with him don't claim to be a former Christian because that is a requirement. That was my point.


I don't care what your point is. You are not the gate keeper of the road to christianity. If my faith wasn't good enough then, I simply want no part of your *** hole god now.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> The thing is you can distinguish between him.


perhaps...but I'm having a tough time distinguishing your fantasy from that of a mental patient. It's far eaiser for me to conclude you are simply delusional than your claims have any justification in reality.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> All you have to do is ask.


When I tell you I have you insist that it obviously wasn't good enough. Your god got several years of devotion and failed me.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> He will provide the proof you need.


I'm afraid I need more proof than nothing at all.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> Christians actually speak to God and he replies.


Of the ones I've heard actually admit to this, a further look reveals several screws loose.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> You may have searched in your own way but how do you expect to find him without the directions he has provided?


I suppose you don't when the directions he supposedly provided lead to the same results as praying to a wheel of gouda.


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## BobbyByThePound

god is just dog spelled backwards!

#DeepTruth


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass

Killer2121 said:


> What the hell did you just say?
> 
> You don't get what I'm saying do you? You see, the reason why people cannot argue properly is because they take one sentence and base the entire argument on it. If you read my post, it was implying that most people are well, stupid to put it short. Most people *including atheists* understand the facts that are given to them, fed to them, stamped in their heads. Most people are very brainwashed, and cannot explain their beliefs or understanding of anything if their life depended on it. I wasn't singling out atheists.
> 
> Atheists, just like religious people are included in this demographic, *a lot of them*. If I go up to the average atheist on the street and ask them a scientific or philosophical question, their answer will most likely be as equally poor as if I went to the average Christian and challenged their theological beliefs.
> 
> True.
> 
> Ah, still taking grade 8 English I see. This was a sarcastic comment, as noted by the smiley. It was simply supporting my argument used in the above point I made.
> 
> "Simply having a disbelief in God does not make you any smarter or enhance your reasoning skills at all. I'm pretty sure most atheists have a solid understanding of math/science . Believing in math and science DOES NOT mean you understand or can explain it."
> 
> You tried to imply that atheists base their arguments off of logic and facts, while I stated that most use petty insults and garbage fed to them by their wingnut websites, just like most other people. Again, you are only 14 so you aren't really experienced in this. When you grow up and begin to think for yourself you will soon realize how much people are influenced by ideas and politics that they don't even know what they are talking about.
> 
> Their are atheists who are very smart, their are religious people that are very smart. But to say that atheists only base their arguments off of facts and religious people do not care about math/science, only God is a ridiculous and false generalization.
> 
> False. If I believe something, it does not mean I understand it. Belief and understanding are two totally different things girl. If my friend gets into a fight with another guy, I can say I believe my friend is innocent, but I don't really understand what happened, hence I cannot fully explain the situation. You can say you believe in science, but I bet if I asked you the most basic questions on the universe or on evolution you wouldn't know where to start, because *you believe in it, but have not taken the time to understand it*
> 
> As for the bolded part, it seems as if you come from a fundamentalist family and you are trying to play the rebel role which is typical at the age of 14.
> 
> False, false, false. Socrates never had a religion and never came up with one. Socrates was actually on my side, he encouraged people to think for themselves and not fall into the trap of brainwashing. He encouraged people to gain an understanding of their beliefs, of the world around them as they see fit and used logic, facts and reason to back it up.
> 
> If you studied any history, you would know that most of the laws, customs, traditions and morals we have today are descended from Christian values and religion. Why does God want you to do this stuff? Because simply, it is the right thing to do, according to Christian doctrine. Treat your fellow man with respect and turn the other cheek; that is the way to defeat anger violence and rage in most cases. God will deal with the wicked.
> 
> I'm bringing up your age because it clearly is a factor in this discussion and a major hinderance of your understanding of how things work.
> 
> I suggest you do not take your age out, that way you have that base to fall back on after people realize how stupid you look.
> 
> Age: 14


[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I have nothing left to say. You're attacking me in the most petty and immature ways in this argument and I see no point in trying to defend myself. Call me 'uninformed' for being young. Call me 'rebellious' for being a teen. I stopped believing in God when I was about 11. I didn't even know that people went through rebellious stages then. Call me stupid when you're arguing in favor of some magical god. This is the atheist and agnostic section. If you're even going to be here at all, then I suggest you express you're opinions gently. And don't ever, ever call me stupid.

And one last thing. Read the Republic by Socrates before you try to tell me he didn't have a religion in mind when brainstorming what his ideas for an ideal society.


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## ManOnTheMOON

ugh1979 said:


> You leave too many questions open in your theory for me to legitimately and honestly ask the questions to something I can't sense..


Accept that you don't understand and ask anyway. What are you going to lose?


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## ManOnTheMOON

Foh_Teej said:


> I don't care what your point is. You are not the gate keeper of the road to christianity. If my faith wasn't good enough then, I simply want no part of your *** hole god now.
> 
> perhaps...but I'm having a tough time distinguishing your fantasy from that of a mental patient. It's far eaiser for me to conclude you are simply delusional than your claims have any justification in reality.
> 
> When I tell you I have you insist that it obviously wasn't good enough. Your god got several years of devotion and failed me.
> 
> I'm afraid I need more proof than nothing at all.
> 
> Of the ones I've heard actually admit to this, a further look reveals several screws loose.
> 
> I suppose you don't when the directions he supposedly provided lead to the same results as praying to a wheel of gouda.


You are correct, I am not the gate keeper. What I say is from the Bible.

Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

I was like you the majority of my life. I would pray, go to church and everything but nothing happened. There is a solution, will you give it one more chance? One question thats all you need to do.


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## Killer2121

[/QUOTE]

I have nothing left to say. You're attacking me in the most petty and immature ways in this argument and I see no point in trying to defend myself. Call me 'uninformed' for being young. Call me 'rebellious' for being a teen. I stopped believing in God when I was about 11. I didn't even know that people went through rebellious stages then. Call me stupid when you're arguing in favor of some magical god. This is the atheist and agnostic section. If you're even going to be here at all, then I suggest you express you're opinions gently. And don't ever, ever call me stupid.

And one last thing. Read the Republic by Socrates before you try to tell me he didn't have a religion in mind when brainstorming what his ideas for an ideal society.[/QUOTE]

The only way I attacked you was by calling you stupid, and that's exactly the way you appear. I am not even arguing in favor of God, I'm arguing the fact that Atheists are not the smartest and best people in the world as you make them seem. You are not smarter than someone because you believe in science and deny God, even though you have no understanding of both :lol. You are not going to reply because I totally took you're poor arguments apart with my last points.

And no, Socrates did not advocate for people to be controlled or bound by religion when speaking of his ideal society. Socrates was a monotheist, most likely believed in the greek pagan God's at the time, but *he was a big believer in people thinking for themselves and not being restricted by religion*

I suggest you do a little research before forming your arguments girl.


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## Fenren

straightarrows said:


> *if there is no GOd, so who created **The universe* ?! who created us?!..


Our parents created us.....
as for the universe it may be infinite or have been here a trillion years and the big bang was just a local event, if the big bang theory is even true which seems not given the age of some of the older galaxies.

Maybe the big bounce is true and universe has gone through many cycles. I hope we don't live this same one life every time though, each time we come to this point, that'd be terrible.

Non-existence is still something, a thought even if no one is there to think it. Nothing is impossible, there was always something. Call it God, a spirit, love, we can't comprehend. Maybe this is all some experiment and we're just like ants trapped in this reality.

God did it is an easy lazy answer to me, he seems to have gone AWOL for the last few thousand years also. 
The answers to how everything began are all around us and we're just asking the wrong questions I feel.


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## Foh_Teej

ManOnTheMOON said:


> You are correct, I am not the gate keeper. What I say is from the Bible.
> 
> Romans 8:9
> You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
> 
> I was like you the majority of my life. I would pray, go to church and everything but nothing happened. There is a solution, will you give it one more chance? One question thats all you need to do.


I do not care what a book says. I do not care to jump through hoops to find a god that wont reveal himself otherwise. You have given no evidence to even remotely suggest you aren't full of ****. You should pray your god boosts your witnessing skill next prayer session.


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## ManOnTheMOON

Foh_Teej said:


> I do not care what a book says. I do not care to jump through hoops to find a god that wont reveal himself otherwise. You have given no evidence to even remotely suggest you aren't full of ****. You should pray your god boosts your witnessing skill next prayer session.


Is asking one question really jumping through hoops? You put more energy in that message you just wrote.


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## Foh_Teej

ManOnTheMOON said:


> Is asking one question really jumping through hoops? You put more energy in that message you just wrote.


You are forgetful or the depth of your skull cannot be ascertained by modern depth finding technology. You just got through telling me I couldn't have had a relationship and now you reduce it to a simple question? You pretend to know me more than I know myself and my own journey through life. When I tell you I EXHAUSTIVELY adhered to faith and prayer -EVEN YOUR SIMPLE QUESTION- I got absolutely no response.

Nothing. At. All.

What part of this do you not get? Will just just come back to tell me I obviously didn't do it right? I was raised by a very religious family in the bible belt. I was "saved" at 15 (apparently not according to you). I even toured with praise and worship bands as a front of house engineer in my earlier professional career. Hell I even went on a mission to Mexico. Having attended thousands of sermons/religious events, I think I am fairly well versed in how to obtain salvation. Don't forget, they tell you of how to accept christ every sunday and remind you of the consequences if you don't. However, you are of NO authority to judge to question my "walk" with this so called christ. Don't you dare ****ing question my faith. If god actually exists and my faith wasn't good enough then, I DO NOT WANT TO WORSHIP A JACK *** GOD NOW. Regardless, there was NEVER any perceivable indication that any of it was even true. When I tell you I never heard him speak to me or do anything perceivable at all, you need to comprehend this.

The fact god hasn't kicked your *** yet should be a testimony to his non existence.


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## Killer2121

ManOnTheMOON said:


> Is asking one question really jumping through hoops? You put more energy in that message you just wrote.


Lol, just leave people like him alone. People like him make it a full-time job to "educate" others. You can see by the way he argues that he's quite an angry fella.


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## Sage Sagan

Oh, it's this thread again.


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## ManOnTheMOON

Foh_Teej said:


> You are forgetful or the depth of your skull cannot be ascertained by modern depth finding technology. You just got through telling me I couldn't have had a relationship and now you reduce it to a simple question? You pretend to know me more than I know myself and my own journey through life. When I tell you I EXHAUSTIVELY adhered to faith and prayer -EVEN YOUR SIMPLE QUESTION- I got absolutely no response.
> 
> Nothing. At. All.
> 
> What part of this do you not get? Will just just come back to tell me I obviously didn't do it right? I was raised by a very religious family in the bible belt. I was "saved" at 15 (apparently not according to you). I even toured with praise and worship bands as a front of house engineer in my earlier professional career. Hell I even went on a mission to Mexico. Having attended thousands of sermons/religious events, I think I am fairly well versed in how to obtain salvation. Don't forget, they tell you of how to accept christ every sunday and remind you of the consequences if you don't. However, you are of NO authority to judge to question my "walk" with this so called christ. Don't you dare ****ing question my faith. If god actually exists and my faith wasn't good enough then, I DO NOT WANT TO WORSHIP A JACK *** GOD NOW. Regardless, there was NEVER any perceivable indication that any of it was even true. When I tell you I never heard him speak to me or do anything perceivable at all, you need to comprehend this.
> 
> The fact god hasn't kicked your *** yet should be a testimony to his non existence.


Sorry for upsetting you. I was exactly like you though raised in the church in a religious family. Prayed did the activities and everything and didn't know God. I asked that question too multiple times too. That's my whole point, *I know that struggle*. Thats why I continued this conversation. There is a way to hear his voice though if you're willing to listen. If not that's fine. Sorry again though, I know this is personal.


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## ManOnTheMOON

Killer2121 said:


> Lol, just leave people like him alone. People like him make it a full-time job to "educate" others. You can see by the way he argues that he's quite an angry fella.


I probably would have been like him if God didn't reveal himself to me a few years ago. I believe its the topic that digs up anger. Knowing what I know now though I would want someone to care enough about me to go to such lengths as I believe you would too.


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## Foh_Teej

Killer2121 said:


> Lol, just leave people like him alone. People like him make it a full-time job to "educate" others. You can see by the way he argues that he's quite an angry fella.


I am not angry at all. Your opinion of me is irrelevant however. Does my sig still bother you so much that you need you mom to rock you to sleep at night or do you only take your anger out on 14 year olds?



ManOnTheMOON said:


> Sorry for upsetting you.


You didn't upset me. You do annoy me however. When I tell you I did not experience anything even remotely perceivable you conclude I didn't have a relationship. You assume **** you have no knoweldge or authority to even consider.



ManOnTheMOON said:


> I probably would have been like him if God didn't reveal himself to me a few years ago. I believe its the topic that digs up anger.


You have to understand that YOUR personal revelation is NOT mine. Every religion has personal revelations JUST LIKE YOURS. Good for you if you consider your experience real. However, it is no justification for me when my experience is completely contradictory. What makes you think I am in anyway angry? If any emotional response is evident, it is your inability to listen to people and insist your experience is anything but a delusion. The arrogance to your argument is astounding but convincing it is not.


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## Killer2121

Foh_Teej said:


> *I am not angry at all. Your opinion of me is irrelevant however. Does my sig still bother you so much that you need you mom to rock you to sleep at night or do you only take your anger out on 14 year olds?*
> 
> You didn't upset me. You do annoy me however. When I tell you I did not experience anything even remotely perceivable you conclude I didn't have a relationship. You assume **** you have no knoweldge or authority to even consider.
> 
> You have to understand that YOUR personal revelation is NOT mine. Every religion has personal revelations JUST LIKE YOURS. Good for you if you consider your experience real. However, it is no justification for me when my experience is completely contradictory. What makes you think I am in anyway angry? If any emotional response is evident, it is your inability to listen to people and insist your experience is anything but a delusion. The arrogance to your argument is astounding but convincing it is not.


The numerous curse words, insults and words in caps lock have indicated otherwise buddy! :lol

Being 33 years old, I would expect you to have something better to do (job) than be spewing out your crap all over the net, you fat weird looking rat!

I can throw insults too! Insults of ones mother is low and unnecessary.

God can save you from your troubles, just have faith :rofl


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## Foh_Teej

Killer2121 said:


> The numerous curse words, insults and words in caps lock have indicated otherwise buddy! :lol


Your interpretation is irrelvant to me o' pal!



Killer2121 said:


> Being 33 years old, I would expect you to have something better to do (job)


Well I acually do have a job all the while pursuing my 3rd degree in Telecommunications and the 4th in Electrical Engineering. Ya see, I am capable enough to log onto to this website while compiling my C code for my microcontroller for my Advanced Microprocessor class. Did you have something better to do or is replying to me the biggest part of your day?



Killer2121 said:


> than be spewing out your crap all over the net,


I hardly consider one website "all over the net" I suppose you feel entitled to be incorrect. Does my sig STILL bother you that much?



Killer2121 said:


> you fat weird looking rat!


Weird looking rat maybe...we should make a poll in another thread to confirm or refute your assessment. ...I'm not really fat though.



Killer2121 said:


> I can throw insults too! Insults of ones mother is low and unnecessary.


I didn't insult your mother. Can you not read very well?



Killer2121 said:


> God can save you from your troubles, just have faith :rofl


You seem vastly more troubled than me sir. However if I were infact having troubles, I can handle them in a vastly more efficient manner myself.



Killer2121 said:


>


No. However, I'm certain a mod will intervene soon so get your comebacks in before we get banned and/or the thread locked.


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## simian4455

BobbyByThePound said:


> god is just dog spelled backwards!
> 
> #DeepTruth


That's deep.


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## melissa75

****Thread Locked****​
This thread had gone on long enough with the various insults and belittlement of people's opinions. Additionally, this is not posted in the debate section ("Agnosticism, Atheism, and Religion")...the only section where you can debate different beliefs. For future reference, if you plan on debating beliefs, post in the correct section and debate respectfully according to the following guideline:​


> *You may debate, criticize/question, or otherwise discuss religion and other beliefs, provided that you aren't just blatantly bashing or ridiculing*. Humor is fine, again, provided that it is not explicitly bashing or ridiculing the beliefs of others and doesn't contain language/content that is otherwise against the board rules. A good rule of thumb is if you aren't sure if you should post it, don't.
> 
> You and others might be able to get a laugh out of dark or anti-religious humor, but this site is not the place for it. *Please keep in mind that these forums are first and foremost to aid people with social anxiety.*


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