# Do women generally want to date bad boys



## Rex92 (Oct 6, 2011)

Well at least during some point in their life anyway?







I have never been in a relationship so just want to know what people think lol. Tom Leykis seems like an obnoxious ****, but a few things he says click in my mind.

I can understand females prefer bad boys, craving excitement is only natural. It's all about the challenge and unpredictability - predictable nice guys or doormats are dull. Girls get turned on by the drama and wanting to try to 'fix' the bad boy. Nice guys get boring, how many males gets dumped with the reasoning "it's not you, it's me"? How many girls date jerks, moan and complain about them, yet never dump them? Thinking back to my time at school...all the lads that got all the girls always came across as idiots, but they were very confident idiots with high social standing. It sucks, but that seems to be the way of the world.

I'm more convinced than ever I'll never get a girlfriend now, but I dunno, I feel more acceptance than frustration now.


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## Innamorata (Sep 20, 2011)

No. Not this one anyway.


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## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

idk depends on the female


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## equiiaddict (Jun 27, 2006)

Well, I've never been into the "bad boy type" but I know some girls are. It just depends.


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## Syndacus (Aug 9, 2011)

I can play both if I want to, its just that I don't feel natural being a bad guy. It kinda goes against my nature. I'm generally kind-hearted, definitely not a door-mat, and I can turn a girl down with ease. I also enjoy typical guy stuff, yet also sit down and listen to a girl's problems. I just don't exemplify bad boy looks...I blame not having facial hair.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

It's not that "nice guys" are boring. It's that they are desperate AND look desperate. 

The more desperate you look, the less women you get. The less desperate you look, the more women you get.


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## march_hare (Jan 18, 2006)

wtf the guy in that video talks about "eroding what little self-esteem she has left", and doing things like telling her you'll meet her and then ignoring her as a method of seduction. Sounds pretty ****ed up.


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## Double Indemnity (Aug 15, 2011)

I didn't watch the video.

I'm attracted to "bad" boys. I like guys who have tattoos, ride motorcycles, maybe do some illegal activities, and aren't religious. I don't like jerks though. They have to treat me well.


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## Downwiththesickness (Nov 13, 2010)

I used to be but not by choice, I think I have more sense now..


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## Rex92 (Oct 6, 2011)

Double Indemnity said:


> I didn't watch the video.
> 
> I'm attracted to "bad" boys. I like guys who have tattoos, ride motorcycles, maybe do some illegal activities, and aren't religious. I don't like jerks though. They have to treat me well.


Hmm...tattoos, motorcycles and a blase attitude to religion aren't really 'bad boy' things in 2011 tbh.


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## Double Indemnity (Aug 15, 2011)

Rex92 said:


> Hmm...tattoos, motorcycles and a blase attitude to religion aren't really 'bad boy' things in 2011 tbh.


Hey, that's living on the edge for me!


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## Innamorata (Sep 20, 2011)

Rex92 said:


> Hmm...tattoos, motorcycles and a blase attitude to religion aren't really 'bad boy' things in 2011 tbh.


That's true, only the illegal activities.


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## caseyblue (Oct 3, 2011)

Bluepanda said:


> Only in youth, women grow out of that pretty fast and realise what a real man is by the age of 25+. It's also around the time most guys grow a set of balls and become men so it's win-win.


I agree with this. We begin to look for different things in our partners as we get older and know what we want.


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## Toeter (Oct 29, 2011)

(insecure) girls generally do but women not so much once they grew some brains and wisdom ; )


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Toeter said:


> (insecure) girls generally do but women not so much once they grew some brains and wisdom ; )


Can you (or any women, for that matter) explain in a bit more detail how and why insecure women would be drawn to the bad boy who puts them down?

The idea is thrown around all the time, yet makes no sense whatsoever. To me, the much simpler and more obvious explanation is that a lot of these women simply find overconfidence, dishonesty, brashness, etc. to be _sexually attractive_, so they seek out men with those traits. Just like a lot of men seek out women with curves. No one tries to dredge up fourth-order psychological motives for _that_.

The whole idea that it's because they're "insecure and think they don't deserve better" strikes me as a subtle attempt at shifting the responsibility away from the woman making the choice, but maybe that's just the cynic in me. I can be swayed with a sufficiently-detailed explanation.


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## keyla965 (Jan 13, 2011)

That whole bad boy thing is kinda overated.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

anomalous said:


> Can you (or any women, for that matter) explain in a bit more detail how and why insecure women would be drawn to the bad boy who puts them down?
> 
> The idea is thrown around all the time, yet makes no sense whatsoever. To me, the much simpler and more obvious explanation is that a lot of these women simply find overconfidence, dishonesty, brashness, etc. to be _sexually attractive_, so they seek out men with those traits. Just like a lot of men seek out women with curves. No one tries to dredge up fourth-order psychological motives for _that_.
> 
> The whole idea that it's because they're "insecure and think they don't deserve better" strikes me as a subtle attempt at shifting the responsibility away from the woman making the choice, but maybe that's just the cynic in me. I can be swayed with a sufficiently-detailed explanation.


One point. Have you ever noticed that most of the time, those who call themselves jerk-magnets are clearly above average in the looks department?

Being attractive women, they can get any guy they want in a split second, and trust me, they know it. Now imagine you are, say, a tennis player, and all your opponents are incredibly weak. Long-term, you'd find it more interesting to meet stronger opponents, wouldn't you? Knowing by now you're already way ahead of the others, you're still confident in that department and you'd find it way more satisfying on a personal basis to beat stronger guys, right?

That's the same principle. Kinda. Those so-called "victims" go after guys that are sought by others and harder to get a piece of. The harder to get the guy is, the better they feel about themselves once they get him. They are beautiful and on top of that, they have a vagina. So somewhere inside, they are confident they can get that guy.


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## Elleire (Jul 24, 2011)

> Do women generally


No.


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## march_hare (Jan 18, 2006)

anomalous said:


> Can you (or any women, for that matter) explain in a bit more detail how and why insecure women would be drawn to the bad boy who puts them down?
> 
> The idea is thrown around all the time, yet makes no sense whatsoever. To me, the much simpler and more obvious explanation is that a lot of these women simply find overconfidence, dishonesty, brashness, etc. to be _sexually attractive_, so they seek out men with those traits. Just like a lot of men seek out women with curves. No one tries to dredge up fourth-order psychological motives for _that_.
> 
> The whole idea that it's because they're "insecure and think they don't deserve better" strikes me as a subtle attempt at shifting the responsibility away from the woman making the choice, but maybe that's just the cynic in me. I can be swayed with a sufficiently-detailed explanation.


It's really late and i'm exhausted, so this is just a stream of thought on the issue....

Going by the description of the "bad boy" in the video that the OP posted, ie. one that aims to destroy a woman's self esteem, lies to her in a calculated way, willfully "treats her like crap", frequently cause her emotional distress to the extent she runs sobbing to her friends -> how can a person of _either _gender stay with a person long term that makes them that unhappy? I say it goes for either gender because I know from first hand experience that it can work exactly the same way for men who are a bit "soft" and insecure and partner with a dominating / aggressive women. It is equally nasty perpetrated by males or females.

If an experience of a relationship with someone is overwhelmingly negative based on something on partner is doing (emotional vampirism / manipulation / destruction of self esteem), then the _willing _subject of this negativity I would in most cases describe as having some kind of emotional problem, probably stemming from childhood, especially if they are repeatedly choosing this people as partners despite finding themselves with a string of miserable relationships.

I don't believe she/he has less "choice" or that this means they are excused from personal responsibility - a lot of people make poor choices and go into situations that are not the best for them, simply because that is what they have known their whole lives. For instance, in the case of women/men who have suffered long-term domestic abuse, sometimes with multiple partners, it is often true that they have experienced similarly uncomfortalbe events from a young age and - perhaps on a subconscious level - believe that this is just the way relationships are done. They thus have difficulty making more appropriate choices that other individuals with the privileges of happier past experiences would see as easy.

I would also wager that the "bad" guy/gal also has underlying emotional problems if they actually seek out to weaken the self esteem and manipulate the good will of a person who ideally they would be aiming to share a warm and loving companionship with. 
(Though of course I am not saying that all healthy relationships should be 100% joy and rainbows, there are always arguments etc)


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## Innamorata (Sep 20, 2011)

Bluepanda said:


> It's because bad boys aren't mean or *** holes right from the start and they have the balls and confidence to approach insecure young pretty girls and make them feel "special" and protected, the girls fall head over heels and then the bad boy's real nature appears...
> 
> At that point there self-esteem is broken down even further and there made to feel useless and unwanted and either stick around because there so damaged or check out and get with the next bad boy.


Sounds like my ex. No bad boys thanks.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

TPower said:


> One point. Have you ever noticed that most of the time, those who call themselves jerk-magnets are clearly above average in the looks department?
> 
> Being attractive women, they can get any guy they want in a split second, and trust me, they know it. Now imagine you are, say, a tennis player, and all your opponents are incredibly weak. Long-term, you'd find it more interesting to meet stronger opponents, wouldn't you? Knowing by now you're already way ahead of the others, you're still confident in that department and you'd find it way more satisfying on a personal basis to beat stronger guys, right?
> 
> That's the same principle. Kinda. Those so-called "victims" go after guys that are sought by others and harder to get a piece of. The harder to get the guy is, the better they feel about themselves once they get him. They are beautiful and on top of that, they have a vagina. So somewhere inside, they are confident they can get that guy.


This is actually a very good response, and I'm quite sure that what you describe is at least one component of the "bad boy phenomenon." What saddens me is to see the choosing of a partner reduced to some sort of overt competition of status driven purely by supply-and-demand, rather than by personal preference.

It's something I cannot empathize with or understand at all, because the extent to which a girl is desired by other men has **no** impact whatsoever on how attracted I am to her. Not even subconsciously, because I've been attracted to several girls who were lightly pursued. Yet, I seem to be unusual in this regard; I've personally witnessed many people pursue someone seemingly as a result of their sexual popularity. While it admittedly seems to be a more common motive among women, I've seen guys do it, too.


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## CourtneyB (Jul 31, 2010)

:no No, thank you.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Knife said:


> It's really late and i'm exhausted, so this is just a stream of thought on the issue....
> 
> Going by the description of the "bad boy" in the video that the OP posted, ie. one that aims to destroy a woman's self esteem, lies to her in a calculated way, willfully "treats her like crap", frequently cause her emotional distress to the extent she runs sobbing to her friends -> how can a person of _either _gender stay with a person long term that makes them that unhappy? I say it goes for either gender because I know from first hand experience that it can work exactly the same way for men who are a bit "soft" and insecure and partner with a dominating / aggressive women. It is equally nasty perpetrated by males or females.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thoughtful response. We are creatures of habit, and as difficult as it is to understand why one would willingly make a destructive choice in mates at each new juncture (even in the presence of better options), I suppose that's a factor.



Bluepanda said:


> It's because bad boys aren't mean or *** holes right from the start and they have the balls and confidence to approach insecure young pretty girls and make them feel "special" and protected, the girls fall head over heels and then the bad boy's real nature appears...
> 
> At that point there self-esteem is broken down even further and there made to feel useless and unwanted and either stick around because there so damaged or check out and get with the next bad boy.


Thanks for your response -- though I'm not sure I agree with your premise that the "bad boy" typically reveals his true nature late in the courtship or even further into the relationship. On the contrary, many of us perceive that putting on a "bad boy" front in the initial stages of pursuing a woman can increase attraction, on average. This is arguably the basis for PUA techniques -- which, while I have no use for them myself, seem to work for some men. Furthermore, I think many of us have witnessed plenty of scenarios in which women, given a set of options, explicitly choose the man with an air of dishonesty and overconfidence and entitlement and lacks empathy, even when such traits are highly obvious from the get-go.

Without a doubt, this kind of behavior is actually an attractor to some women -- _not_ merely a method of control once they've been "suckered" into a relationship with the bad boy. The only question worthy of debate is what percentage of women fall into this category.



> Nice guys are no different women say nice things to them, treat them nice and they just completely surrender themselves as slaves that get used and abused in a similar fashion.


That's a really good point. I've seen that happen, too. I guess you could say that, for example, Hugh Hefner is analogous to women who date bad boys. He's willing to accept infidelity, lack of an emotional connection, and a host of other faults in order to get women with good looks (which is analogous to the high social status commonly found with "bad boys").



> as people grow older they learn to think alot more about what there partner has to offer them and make more demands and accept less ****. The lucky few learn that at a much younger age and skip all that bad relationships and drama


I guess. Personally, I never went through that stage, so I find it very difficult not to judge women (and men, even though they don't concern me romantically) who have ostensibly just "outgrown it" -- after conveniently spending their college and young adult years blowing every man***** in town, of course. If I am ever to get into another relationship, I will definitely be seeking a girl who never went through any sort of "bad boy stage," rare as they may be.


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## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

Well that depends on the woman. I personally prefer nicer guys over bad boys.


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## mcmuffinme (Mar 12, 2010)

i can see why 'bad boys' have sex appeal, but as far as realistic expectations for dating men, it doesn't factor in to my choice at all. It's like having an accent- some traits and attitudes are just intriguing. But I think the 'bad boy' charm is more lust based, and wouldn't affect someone interested in a serious, mature relationship.

It's not something you should worry about. It's not a requirement, and I'd argue it's better to be a down-to-earth and generally regular guy. they're called bad BOYS for a reason. you don't have to be elvis presley, and for us to expect that of all men would be absurd.


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## xTKsaucex (Jun 23, 2010)

Dont know, house mate is a graffiti artist and has a fair few tales to tell and gets a fair bit of attention.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

As a man, you can choose what to believe:

1. That yes, generally they do.
2. That all men are bitter misogynistic scum who make up lies like these about women, and women just want nice/good/gentle/caring/non-offensive-adjective guys.

So.... get back to us with what you think...


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## BehindTheseHazelEyes (Oct 27, 2009)

keyla965 said:


> That whole bad boy thing is kinda overated.


Amen!:clap Thankfully I've never had a thing for the bad boy types.


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## Doctorius (Sep 12, 2011)

I think there is a misconception of the term "Bad boy". Bad boy doesnt always equal the bad, lying, abusive scum like many men/women think. Some bad boys are all that but most of them are not. From my point of view, the bad boy is outgoing and social. He also has many hobbies and he usually knows how to dress and has a distinctive style. He has balls and attitude, and isnt shy! He radiates masculinity and alpha-male characteristics. So its natural all ladies LOVE him and are attracted to him. Then the other guys(call them "good" guys if you want) get jealous and start talking ****. They see him like the devil who abuses the ladies. They think he is a guy with no goal in life and just a show-off jerk. However, they never EVER met him in person to understand what kind of person he really is and just continue bad mouthing him and crying because he has many girl followers. To conclude, in this time and age, it all comes down to SOCIAL or ANTI-SOCIAL. There are not many men-hunters and the ones left are so misread. IMO, bad boy is just another stereotype(like the geek) that people invented so they will forget their own complexes and flaws and just feel comfortable with themselves. Appearances can be deceiving these days...


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## mistyeyes (Oct 27, 2011)

Excellent question...

Nice guys finish last eh?

Speaking for myself.. I like guys with a little edge. I wouldn't necessarily say "bad" or even full of drama as that can be too much to deal with as well.. But edge.. unpredictable and a little moody.. makes a great lover!

When a guy is too nice he is opening up the door to be walked on. I don't like overly accomodating men who bend over backwards for women.. I like to be put in my place and told when I'm being unreasonable and the nice guy doesn't do that..

Drama? NO! Edge? YESSSSS!

I think that's why women find men who scowl more attractive than the smiley guy because the smiley guy just looks desperate.. for anyone. He also looks too easy. The scowler is more of a challenge.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

anomalous said:


> Can you (or any women, for that matter) explain in a bit more detail how and why insecure women would be drawn to the bad boy who puts them down?
> 
> The idea is thrown around all the time, yet makes no sense whatsoever.


I suggest you study the abuse cycle. It makes perfect sense if you know how it works.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

The common belief is that "_They feel they don't deserve better_" is flawed.

Women that are beaten up by their boyfriends will often make up BS to excuse their behavior and say something along the lines of "I'm lucky to have him".


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

mistyeyes said:


> Excellent question...
> 
> Nice guys finish last eh?
> 
> ...


Your viewpoint is **EXACTLY** what I'm talking about when I ***** and moan endlessly about the "typical" rules of female attraction, and I'm sure the same can be said for a lot of guys here, including the OP.

It's not that any of us really believe the average woman loves to be emotionally or physically abused endlessly. It's that this so-called "edge" your prefer seems so illogical and unproductive. I mean, of all flaws a person can have... "he's not edgy enough?" The reality is that that one "flaw" is more damning to a man's chances than a whole host of far-worse flaws he can have. So, if you're a man who's doing pretty well in most other areas but is "not edgy enough," it's obviously frustrating. _Ridiculously_ frustrating.

I mean, I commend your honesty, but to be 100% transparent and honest, your post makes me feel ill and loathe humanity. I suppose it's the equivalent of an intelligent, kind-hearted, healthy and motivated woman being told she's unwanted because she happens to be ugly. Only, in this case, I think there's this extra element of frustration because "niceness" seems like a _good_ quality, yet it's a massive liability for us (unless we know exactly how to shuffle between the "right" kind and amount of it and the "edgy stud" you prefer in different scenarios).

At least an ugly girl is being passed over for a beautiful one, and beauty is a _neutral_ quality in an objective, moral sense. The "edginess" you describe is, if not immoral and societally-harmful in itself, at the very least highly-correlated with men who are immoral and societally-harmful. Plus, many of these "edgy" men are the very ones who have bullied and belittled us "nice guys" all our lives, which compounds the bitterness.


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

Seems like just another gross generalisation.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Bluepanda said:


> Hardly a fair comparison, People can't change how they look at least not without surgery and a big bank account.
> 
> Being a bit more edgy is free and requires very little effort. Why not use your frustrations to become more edgy with women instead of moaning about them, you'll get better results.


How about I'll jump in a volcano before I let a woman dictate my behavior?

For the record, I don't fit the profile, I'm kind of a jerk. The minute I hear the girl is not interested in more than _being just friends_, she's a goner.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

mistyeyes said:


> Excellent question...
> 
> Nice guys finish last eh?
> 
> ...


It's fine to like what you want, and I get it. You want a confident, fun guy but not necessarily a jerk. Heck, I also wouldn't want to date anyone that's always agreeing with what I'm saying/doing, because not everyone is right all of the time. Speaking up and expressing your own opinion does show that you care.

By "Edge", I assume you mean fun or excitement. You don't have to do anything illegal or wrong to have fun.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Bluepanda said:


> Hardly a fair comparison, People can't change how they look at least not without surgery and a big bank account.
> 
> Being a bit more edgy is free and requires very little effort. Why not use your frustrations to become more edgy with women instead of moaning about them, you'll get better results.


Because I live my life on _my_ terms, and in my moral framework, I see no benefit to being any "edgier" than I already am. Only negatives.



> Women just like men enjoy earning respect and attention, nobody want's it handed to them on a silver platter constantly it's boring , not exciting and isn't rewarding. It's not hard to avoid that just don't treat women like princesses and expect thing's to be 50/50. Compliment them if they do something nice or compliment you, don't just give them away for free if she doesn't deserve them or hasn't earned them.


With all due respect, BS. _I_ don't care about strenuously "earning" respect from a potential mate. _I_ would love a girl who's just plain nice, and I would not plan on challenging her will in order to discern my status.

Therefore, to enter into a relationship with a woman who needs this type of thing defines the relationship as unequal and volatile right from the start. I prefer (approximate) equality.



> If they do something you dislike or don't meet your needs let them know about it and stop being mr.nice guy until they get there act together.


Sure, I'd do that if I were in a relationship. But I'm not, because I don't display more overt "edginess" during the introductory phase. Let's be honest here: this is not about just standing up for yourself. That may be what people like to say, but anyone who lives in reality knows it often takes more than just that. (As in, showing overt signs of dominance over other men, for example).



> Alot of women do things intentionally for a reaction because it's exciting and turns them on, it's also a subconscious test to see if your a man or a mouse.


Yeah, and you know what? F--k them. I want no part of that, and will not accept it. A relationship with any person who engages in those kind of games (no matter the gender) will no doubt be a net negative on my life.

The problem, of course, is that few women will _admit_ to doing that. Yet, as you yourself have no doubt observed in the process of formulating the opinion you just articulated, it's actually quite rampant.



> So many guys continue to be really nice even when girls are being a complete pain in the ***. You have to stop that **** and demand some respect or they will never be attracted to you and if they already were it will start disappearing fast.


Again, most of these guys never even make it to the point in a relationship in which this would be a factor. If they do, and proceed to accept her being a pain in the ***, I'd totally agree with you.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Bluepanda said:


> That's just how attraction works. If you just hand yourself over willy nilly and expect nothing in return what your offering has no value and is essentially meaningless.
> 
> If Diamonds were common and free nobody would want them.


All I can do is repeat what I already said: it doesn't work like that for me. I don't care whether a woman (a) is wanted by many other guys vs. none of them, or (b) plays hard-to-get, "challenges" me, "puts me in my place," and acts as if she's entitled to my attention. Neither of those things have a positive impact on my attraction to her. I know plenty of other men who are the same (though certainly some aren't). So, to say "that's how attraction works" misses my very point, which is that it works that way for _certain people_, the demographic breakdown of which I suppose we aren't allowed to talk about at length.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Bluepanda said:


> I didn't say anything about them dictating your behaviour.
> 
> As for girl's wanting to be friends, your just shooting yourself in the foot. Girls usually have lots of single female friends that could be interested in you and you get bonus points because you already have the approval of there friend which means there guards will be down around you and they'll feel comfortable flirting and chatting with you.


You are neglecting an important fact: If the said girl sees you as friendship material, her friends will most likely follow in that path.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Nidhoggr said:


> Seems like just another gross generalisation.


No, what this is is another attempt to make women as a group look stupid, shallow, and irrational - which is annoying and is the reason the word "misogynists" keep getting thrown around (and rightly so).

The phrase "bad boy" isn't even clearly defined and it's impossible to answer the thread question even generally speaking, but it's obvious that OP wasn't as much looking for an actual answer as he was trying to get a "yes, and that's _exactly _why you're single - because women are stupid, shallow, and irrational."

(Apologies to OP because the original post is actually pretty tame and doesn't warrant that kind of reply, but my attitude toward this age-old question is basically that.)


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes, women are irrational in general. And moreso than men when it comes to relationships, I can guarantee that.

There's quite a difference between misogyny and pointing out actual facts.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

TPower said:


> Yes, women are irrational in general. And moreso than men when it comes to relationships, I can guarantee that.
> 
> There's quite a difference between misogyny and pointing out actual facts.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Bluepanda said:


> I don't think your being very honest or just have very low standards. Are you telling me you'd feel equal attraction to a girl that let you put her down or offend her compared to one that had more self-respect and stood up for herself.
> 
> It's blatantly obvious which of the two you'd find more attractive and you know it.


Stop making this about "standing up for yourself." I've already said three or four times that it's not that simple.

If a girl were so timid and insecure as to let me call her an ugly POS and just nod along and say "I'm sorry," I would be very concerned. *But it wouldn't be an attraction-killer*. I'd just be worried about her well-being, and I might consider the relationship to be unhealthy on purely practical grounds.

But if a girl were basically a really nice and modest person, while still being rational enough not to let me (or anyone else) completely walk all over her (which I'd never try to do to begin with), I'd consider that *ideal*. Ideal is _that_. Not "edgy." Edginess does nothing for me. Let's not pretend there's a perfect equivalency between genders on this.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

TPower said:


> Yes, women are irrational in general. And moreso than men when it comes to relationships, I can guarantee that.
> 
> There's quite a difference between misogyny and pointing out actual facts.


I don't think you can claim it's a fact, because there's not enough hard data. What we can say is that our life experiences and observations strongly suggest women to be more irrational in terms of their *personality preferences* in relationships/sex partners. (For example, I'd consider the girl on the last page who said she "likes to be put in her place" to be irrational in this regard). Men are often irrational in that they're willing to overlook deep personality flaws in exchange for good looks. But, from what I've seen, I don't think they nearly as often _seek out_ destructive personalities.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Men are rational in the sense that they are practical. 

It's less likely than the opposite, but if a woman hits a guy regularly, he'll get rid of her, and that'll be it. If the girl ignores him, he'll end up losing interest and look somewhere else most of the time. Also, if he meets an attractive woman with whom he fits, he will unevitably fall in love with her. Men usually don't friend-zone women, that's not in their nature. And he won't need that "unexplainable feeling" in their stomach to love a woman.

If some men overlook flaws because of a woman's look, there's only one reason to explain it, a three-letter word: SEX. Men will do pretty much anything to get sex. That includes being dishonest, lying, and overlooking character issues.


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

rednosereindeer said:


> No, what this is is another attempt to make women as a group look stupid, shallow, and irrational - which is annoying and is the reason the word "misogynists" keep getting thrown around (and rightly so).
> 
> The phrase "bad boy" isn't even clearly defined and it's impossible to answer the thread question even generally speaking, but it's obvious that OP wasn't as much looking for an actual answer as he was trying to get a "yes, and that's _exactly _why you're single - because women are stupid, shallow, and irrational."
> 
> (Apologies to OP because the original post is actually pretty tame and doesn't warrant that kind of reply, but my attitude toward this age-old question is basically that.)


To me, it is a another generalisation. I don't know what kind of intellectual ommelette you're trying to whip up here with your stipulations and so forth, but with these kinds of threads you just assume you understand what the question refers to an answer according to your best interpretation of it. That's all _most _people would usually do.

I can appreciate that your idea of a 'bad boy' could be different or you are not willing to make an assumption based on the information given as I have, but that does not mean you should insinuate I do not have the liberty to do as much.


----------



## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

rednosereindeer said:


> No, what this is is another attempt to make women as a group look stupid, shallow, and irrational - which is annoying and is the reason the word "misogynists" keep getting thrown around (and rightly so).


This may also be the case, but it's none of my business to just assume that these are what the OP's orginal intentions were, unless I am an oversensitive, politically rigid quarrelsome feminist :b


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Nidhoggr said:


> To me, it is a another generalisation. I don't know what kind of intellectual ommelette you're trying to whip up here with your stipulations and so forth, but with these kinds of threads you just assume you understand what the question refers to an answer according to your best interpretation of it. That's all _most _people would usually do.


Given the subsequent replies, I'd say her assumption was dead on.

But I guess I'm just being an oversensitive, rigid feminist by pointing out the blatant women bashing that's going on here.


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

au Lait said:


> Given the subsequent replies, I'd say her assumption was dead on.
> 
> But I guess I'm just being a quarrelsome, rigid feminist by pointing out the blatant women bashing that's going on here.


Yes you are. Learn to move on! 

Edit* You may also recall I coined the term 'politically rigid'. You seemed to have omissed that for some reason. Some things in life aren't worth your stress, splitting hairs or creating a controversial discussion online over what an OP's intentions were because you genuinely believed he was 'woman bashing' is one of them. If you feel that passionate that all men are out to degrade women then go and join an official society for it where your words will have more of a lasting effect.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Nidhoggr said:


> Yes you are. Learn to move on!


nah, I'm good thanks


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Nidhoggr said:


> Edit* You may also recall I coined the term 'politically rigid'. You seemed to have omissed that for some reason. Some things in life aren't worth your stress, splitting hairs or creating a controversial discussion online over what an OP's intentions were because you genuinely believed he was 'woman bashing' is one of them. If you feel that passionate that all men are out to degrade women then go and join an official society for it where your words will have more of a lasting effect.


I just didn't care enough to quote you word for word. Sorry.

I never said the OP was bashing women. And I certainly never said all men are out to degrade women. Not even sure where that came from, but stop putting words into my mouth, tyia.

I was talking about Tpower, who called women irrational.

Also, omissed isn't a word. Just saying.


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

au Lait said:


> I just didn't care enough to quote you word for word. Sorry.
> 
> I never said the OP was bashing women. And I certainly never said all men are out to degrade women. Not even sure where that came from, but stop putting words into my mouth, tyia.
> 
> ...


That's okay, I just felt it was an important part is all.

Sorry for misinterpreting you too, as it's quite a high possibility. But where did I get that idea from then? I must have gotten it from somewhere to mention it, because my imagination certainly isn't that great!!

'Ommissed' is a word I made up, it's a variation of 'ommission'. It is a part of the vocabulary of retarded awesomeness. It means 'left out'.


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## CynicalOptimist (Dec 31, 2010)

I wouldn't say they generally want to date bad boys, but some, actually quite a few, have a bad boy phase where they might date a bad boy or two, but I think it gets old fast for them.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Nidhoggr said:


> But where did I get that idea from then? I must have gotten it from somewhere to mention it, because *my imagination certainly isn't that great*!!


My imagination isn't that great either, so in regards to my previous post, whatever it is that I saw that you didn't see, I must've gotten the idea from somewhere.

That's all.


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## march_hare (Jan 18, 2006)

TPower said:


> Men will do pretty much anything to get sex. That includes being dishonest, lying, and overlooking character issues.


Wow that's very rational then.

I think it's pretty sad btw, that you said you won't even be friends with a girl if she won't have sex with you. Why is that?


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## march_hare (Jan 18, 2006)

TPower said:


> The common belief is that "_They feel they don't deserve better_" is flawed.
> 
> Women that are beaten up by their boyfriends will often make up BS to excuse their behavior and say something along the lines of "I'm lucky to have him".


But using the excuse "I'm lucky to have him" IS consistent with the "They feel they don't deserve better" argument.
Can you explain your point?


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## Ashley1990 (Aug 27, 2011)

never !! i like sober guys..


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## Amileaway (Oct 27, 2011)

Hi. I'm new to this site and new to this argument. I have had more than one controlling female as a partner over the years and eventually decided that I would avoid relationships until I could get a clearer picture on why this was happening. Needless to say I'm no expert simply because I haven't had the experience of getting romantically involved with every type of personality I have encountered. But I can tell you that there are some generalizations about people that I believe very strongly based on my observance of myself and others during this time. Here they are:

1. if you are having trouble or are dissatisfied with relationships in general, it is more likely due to a conflict that you are having with  yourself than with your partner(s).

2. People are usually rational until strong feelings override "better" judgement. I believe that women appear more irrational because many of us grew up in a society where females are encouraged to express emotion, and thus learn to have more trust in the way they feel than males do. Along these lines, when interacting with a potential partner, there is little time to find the rational root of any particular feeling. So males tend to deny, while females tend to accept, their feelings towards potential partners.

3. There is some room to argue with natural instincts. However, unless you know yourself very, very well, it will be an uphill battle.

4. History usually becomes habit.

5. Some people thrive in conflict. Some people only learn the hard way. Most people are trying in some way or another to be better than what they currently are. All of these aspects are reflected in the choice of partner we pursue.

6. It's all a game of give and take. Giving without getting is no more or less fun than getting without giving. And no one's gonna give you love or respect until you give these to yourself (and expect them from others).

7. That hot girl is probably with the bad boy because she's already had her fill of the nice guys. None of these people are men or women yet.

8. Attractiveness is in the mind of the beholder. If you can stop trying to have what everyone thinks everyone else wants, and stop trying to be what you think everyone wants you to be, you'll have a chance to see what you really want, and who you really are.

9. Remember that sex, love, and relationships are all supposed to feel GOOD.

10. Don't be afraid to go with what works. That 80 year old couple banters back and forth all day for a reason.


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## Rixy (Oct 4, 2009)

I just kicked a puppy. Am I super hot now?


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Knife said:


> Wow that's very rational then.
> 
> I think it's pretty sad btw, that you said you won't even be friends with a girl if she won't have sex with you. Why is that?


It is rational. Not really kind for a behavior, but the guy knows what he is doing, and why he is doing it.

I wouldn't have platonic female friends for the sole reason that I would inevitably develop sexual feelings for her. And those feelings would just increase, the more I spend time with her. Why provoke sexual frustrations to yourself when you can avoid it?


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

anomalous said:


> Your viewpoint is **EXACTLY** what I'm talking about when I ***** and moan endlessly about the "typical" rules of female attraction, and I'm sure the same can be said for a lot of guys here, including the OP.
> 
> It's not that any of us really believe the average woman loves to be emotionally or physically abused endlessly. It's that this so-called "edge" your prefer seems so illogical and unproductive. I mean, of all flaws a person can have... "he's not edgy enough?" The reality is that that one "flaw" is more damning to a man's chances than a whole host of far-worse flaws he can have. So, if you're a man who's doing pretty well in most other areas but is "not edgy enough," it's obviously frustrating. _Ridiculously_ frustrating.
> 
> ...


This is one person's response. You've seized on it and ignored several other women's responses that expressed a different and in a few cases opposite belief or practice.

Trying to be objective here, but it seems to me that you look for evidence to support the idea that there is some thing all or most women want, and you don't have it. That has to be an odd mix of satisfation (when you find a piece of "evidence") and misery.

The other thing I notice is that you're being "edgy" in this thread, as far as I can tell. Maybe there's a small hint of self pity in the content, but several women have said "A", and rightly or wrongly you believe "B" to be true and you state so pretty vigorously. If you express yourself this confidently in person I can see some people disagreeing with you but I can't see many viewing you as a pushover.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Nidhoggr said:


> But where did I get that idea from then? I must have gotten it from somewhere to mention it, because my imagination certainly isn't that great!!


Sorry, can't help you there. I'm not inside your head and I can't really tell you how or why you'd misinterpret or read different meaning into my words. Or why you would assume that I am politically rigid, for that matter, when I haven't mentioned politics at all in this thread (and it's also pretty obvious from my other posts elsewhere on the site that I'm extremely liberal).

But you're free to view me however you want. Still doesn't make it a reality though. 



anomalous said:


> us "nice guys"


What's interesting to me is that I've seen you, as well as many other self proclaimed "nice guys", say some very mean and disrespectful things, in addition to holding derogatory and spiteful views about women. If your logic that women love to be mistreated and are unequivocally attracted to bad boys/jerks/whatever you want to call them holds true, then I would think that you guys would be getting laid on a daily basis.


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## leave me alone (Apr 1, 2011)

I have not read the whole thread, but i have pretty good idea what is it all about. Most of the guys think that women generally want to date bad boys, most of the girls disagree.

The truth is somewhere in middle. You can stop arguing now


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## mistyeyes (Oct 27, 2011)

anomalous said:


> Your viewpoint is **EXACTLY** what I'm talking about when I ***** and moan endlessly about the "typical" rules of female attraction, and I'm sure the same can be said for a lot of guys here, including the OP.
> 
> It's not that any of us really believe the average woman loves to be emotionally or physically abused endlessly. It's that this so-called "edge" your prefer seems so illogical and unproductive. I mean, of all flaws a person can have... "he's not edgy enough?" The reality is that that one "flaw" is more damning to a man's chances than a whole host of far-worse flaws he can have. So, if you're a man who's doing pretty well in most other areas but is "not edgy enough," it's obviously frustrating. _Ridiculously_ frustrating.
> 
> ...


Ok.. I'm not saying my preferences are TYPICAL.. and to be honest I do understand why you're becoming defensive over what I'm saying as in my opinion most guys go for the tall blond size zero with zero personality. I find that frustrating as hell because I am none of those things (thank god! I don't want to be!!). And no, I don't mean all guys, just a lot.

This reminds me of what Barney on "How I Met Your Mother" explained during one episode; the correlation between beauty and craziness. The better looking the chick is, the more she gets away with. I believe that 100% for both sexes. Sorry but it's true.

I, personally, cannot help who I am attracted to. It has a lot do with how I was raised, where I was raised, and societal influences in general. It doesn't make me shallow my dear. It's just a preference. We have no control over who we find attractive and why. The only thing we can control is whether or not we act upon it.

I don't think that not being edgy is a flaw. Not at all! I wouldn't rule out a guy because he didn't possess these qualities. Besides, my response is heavily biased towards the guy I am currently "gaga" over. So when I think of what I like, I think of him, and these are a lot of the qualities he possesses. He's moody but not mean and not a bully at all. He's not your typical juice monkey with air between his ears either. He's very smart, very driven, independent, and if he prefers women who look like Barbie and spends more time highlighting her hair and getting her nails done, I would gag, puke and lose interest in him.

Niceness is a great quality. It's also a MASSIVE liability for women too. Speaking as your typical girl-next-door who used to be a doormat, I've experienced my fair share of situations where I was taken advantage of. I've had enough, I did my research and I finally understand the difference between "Nice" and "Edgy". I am no longer the "nice" girl. She's too weak. She doesn't stand up for herself. She goes along with what the guy wants in order to appease him, otherwise he might leave her for a better looking woman. Screw that noise! See you later nice girl. Take me as I am or don't take me at all. I could care less! This doesn't mean I am a biotch. It just means that I stand up for myself, I have my own life, I have an opinion, I love myself, and I am ok on my own. 

There are two types of attractions for me. Number one being partially what I have described above (the guy is obviously attractive and I would love to jump in bed with him). Then there are the deeper attractions that are better and more meaningful but you can't quite pinpoint what it is about this person that attracts you (is a mostly intellectual/personality driven way), you just know that you really like them. It's a deeper and more profound attraction. The best really! But this guy doesn't stick out in a crowd of men, so he's likely overlooked. He's a hidden gem! 

I'm not talking about the school bully either when I mention "edge". I have always and will always hate those guys. They belong with the size zero blonds that have nothing interesting to say. Ken and Barbie, enjoying their plastic life with their stupid purse dogs and ed hardy bedazzler clothing. Rot in hell!!!

I hope I have cleared things up a bit? I tried my best to write more fluidly and comprehensively as you're obviously a lot smarter than me, but sometimes my thoughts come faster than I can type them, so this is what you get. Take it or leave it.


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## mistyeyes (Oct 27, 2011)

Amileaway said:


> Hi. I'm new to this site and new to this argument. I have had more than one controlling female as a partner over the years and eventually decided that I would avoid relationships until I could get a clearer picture on why this was happening. Needless to say I'm no expert simply because I haven't had the experience of getting romantically involved with every type of personality I have encountered. But I can tell you that there are some generalizations about people that I believe very strongly based on my observance of myself and others during this time. Here they are:
> 
> 1. if you are having trouble or are dissatisfied with relationships in general, it is more likely due to a conflict that you are having with yourself than with your partner(s).
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## RyanJ (Mar 31, 2009)

If I've learned anything from this thread, it's that guys are just interested in sex, and women are inherently irrational. Thanks, SAS.


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## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

TPower said:


> Men are rational in the sense that they are practical.
> 
> It's less likely than the opposite, but if a woman hits a guy regularly, he'll get rid of her, and that'll be it. If the girl ignores him, he'll end up losing interest and look somewhere else most of the time. Also, if he meets an attractive woman with whom he fits, he will unevitably fall in love with her. Men usually don't friend-zone women, that's not in their nature. And he won't need that "unexplainable feeling" in their stomach to love a woman.
> 
> If some men overlook flaws because of a woman's look, there's only one reason to explain it, a three-letter word: SEX. Men will do pretty much anything to get sex. That includes being dishonest, lying, and overlooking character issues.


That's a generalization.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

au Lait said:


> What's interesting to me is that I've seen you, as well as many other self proclaimed "nice guys", say some very mean and disrespectful things, in addition to holding derogatory and spiteful views about women. If your logic that women love to be mistreated and are unequivocally attracted to bad boys/jerks/whatever you want to call them holds true, then I would think that you guys would be getting laid on a daily basis.


No, they wouldn't. Why?

It's pretty simple, I would bet a thousand dollars that guys you may perceive as bitter here are actually _really_ nice and kind to women IN REAL LIFE.

And don't come up with some BS about how women are mind readers.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

mistyeyes said:


> I like to be put in my place....


Aye. B*tches can get so uppity.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

TPower said:


> No, they wouldn't. Why?
> 
> It's pretty simple, I would bet a thousand dollars that guys you may perceive as bitter here are actually _really_ nice and kind to women IN REAL LIFE.
> 
> And don't come up with some BS about how women are mind readers.


Yep.

And the flip side of that is, more than a few of the guys she knows IRL and considers to be "_real_ nice guys" probably have some of the same thoughts and opinions that you and I are articulating.

Oh, anonymity; the best invention of our age.


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## iamwhatiam (Mar 23, 2011)

What did you expect, that women are going to say: yes I am attracted to men that are viewed as "bad"? Obviously that would be a big no no for a women and she will deny it to make herself look better. There isn't anything wrong with that, but you have to learn not to listen to women when it comes to finding what attracts women. 

Does it suck for guys who are inherently nice and have no interest in pretending otherwise? Yes, but that is life. Either adapt your game or find yourself in the same situation. This means that not only do you not have to be a doormat (most people will say oh nice guys are doormats when this isn't true), but you have to actually force yourself to be aggressive.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Atticus said:


> This is one person's response. You've seized on it and ignored several other women's responses that expressed a different and in a few cases opposite belief or practice.
> 
> Trying to be objective here, but it seems to me that you look for evidence to support the idea that there is some thing all or most women want, and you don't have it. That has to be an odd mix of satisfation (when you find a piece of "evidence") and misery.


 But it wasn't just one response; I just chose to address that particular one because it so clearly articulated the mindset I find repugnant.

So far, I've noted roughly an equal number of "yes" vs. "no" female replies WRT whether they personally like bad boys. A slew of other responses neglected to address their personal preference entirely, instead saying things like, "a lot of girls do, but it's usually just a phase." While I won't claim knowledge of these wishy-washy posters' personal preferences in the absence of their stating it outright, I would note that there's every incentive in the world on a board like SAS to say "I don't prefer them!" if that is indeed the case.

In totality, the responses so far are hardly a rejection of my position: that _the majority_ of women do, indeed, like bad boys. (In most circles, this wouldn't even be up for debate; the only question would be the precise definition of "bad boy"). I've never claimed there weren't exceptions to the rule. And by "the rule," I don't even mean that the exceptions are necessarily needle-in-the-haystack rare. Just the minority.



> The other thing I notice is that you're being "edgy" in this thread, as far as I can tell. Maybe there's a small hint of self pity in the content, but several women have said "A", and rightly or wrongly you believe "B" to be true and you state so pretty vigorously. If you express yourself this confidently in person I can see some people disagreeing with you but I can't see many viewing you as a pushover.


I know you're smarter than to actually conflate confident expression of a personal belief on the Internet with the social confidence and casual chest-thumping that gets results IRL, so I won't bother addressing this further.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

iamwhatiam said:


> Does it suck for guys who are inherently nice and have no interest in pretending otherwise? Yes, but that is life. Either adapt your game or find yourself in the same situation. *This means that not only do you not have to be a doormat (most people will say oh nice guys are doormats when this isn't true), but you have to actually force yourself to be aggressive.*


This.

A thousand times this.

Speaking of which, everyone who buys into the whole *nice guy vs. Nice Guy (TM)* bullsh1t should be forced to read this a thousand times.


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## add2list (Nov 10, 2010)

TPower said:


> No, they wouldn't. Why?
> 
> It's pretty simple, I would bet a thousand dollars that guys you may perceive as bitter here are actually _really_ nice and kind to women IN REAL LIFE.
> 
> And don't come up with some BS about how women are mind readers.


Seeing as lots of these "nice guys" can't recognize their misogyny online, I doubt they're too sharp at recognizing it in real life either. I don't think women need to be able to have mind reading skills to pick up on these hateful attitudes towards women. Basic observational skills should suffice.


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## Nothingness (Oct 26, 2011)

Women love drama! That's a fact of life. There was this guy I worked with years ago and he said it best!
*Women don't want a good man.*
*They want a bad man that they can change.*
*You can be good, but throw em' some drama *
*once in a while to make them happy!*
*If they change you completely?*
*They will dump you!*
The man is right! All the best girls are with the biggest arseholes!


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

add2list said:


> Seeing as lots of these "nice guys" can't recognize their misogyny online, I doubt they're too sharp at recognizing it in real life either. I don't think women need to be able to have mind reading skills to pick up on these hateful attitudes towards women. Basic observational skills should suffice.


I know you mean well and probably genuinely believe you're trying to stamp out some awful injustice here, but sit back and think about this for a minute.

What is it these "misogynists" are actually saying? With some fringe exceptions, all we've ever said is that on average, in general, women prefer men who are aggressive and dominant, often at the expense of other qualities. Many of us are frustrated with this perceived tendency.

That's so far removed from _real_ hatred -- the kind that drives whites to send blacks to the back of the bus, or men to keep women out of schools -- that you almost do injustice to the word "misogynist," in a way.

More to the point, because our gripe is so specific and relatively unimpactful (i.e., we have no issues with women in any context other than romance/sex), it's *completely* plausible that people who know us IRL would not pick up on it. If we were _real_ misogynists who thought women shouldn't be allowed to work with us or vote, that would be awfully hard to hide, no doubt.


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

au Lait said:


> Sorry, can't help you there. I'm not inside your head and I can't really tell you how or why you'd misinterpret or read different meaning into my words. Or why you would assume that I am politically rigid, for that matter, when I haven't mentioned politics at all in this thread (and it's also pretty obvious from my other posts elsewhere on the site that I'm extremely liberal).
> 
> But you're free to view me however you want. Still doesn't make it a reality though.


"_We have to be careful in this era of feminism, not to emphasize an equality of the sexes that leads women to imitate men to prove their equality. To be equal does not mean you have to be the same."_

Give it a rest. I'm not here to portray an outlook that reflects any level of thought that woman are unequal in any way, shape, or form to men, so I'd appreciate that my posts weren't picked apart by anyone, not you, rednosereindeer nor any other gal especially when I do my best to be genuine and offer genuine advice/ opinion.

That's all I have to say.


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

rednosereindeer said:


> My imagination isn't that great either, so in regards to my previous post, whatever it is that I saw that you didn't see, I must've gotten the idea from somewhere.
> 
> That's all.


Oh yeah, it was the term 'woman bashing', or inclusive in the statement, 'the patent woman bashing that is going on here.'

I apologise Au Lait for implying that that statment had belonged to you.

All I am saying is maybe ya'll should just chill out and relax a little. You might save yourself a few headaches where your words don't have much of an effect anyway, contrary to what any given OP's intentions may be.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

I think women like excitement. The stereotypical nice guys are doormats and boring so they bring no fun or excitement to the table. I think it is possible to be fun and attractive to women while at the same time being nice. I think the other problem that arises with nice guys is that they are needy and this is a turn off for women.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

shynesshellasucks said:


> I think women like excitement. The stereotypical nice guys are doormats and boring so they bring no fun or excitement to the table. I think it is possible to be fun and attractive to women while at the same time being nice. I think the other problem that arises with nice guys is that they are needy and this is a turn off for women.


...



iamwhatiam said:


> What did you expect, that women are going to say: yes I am attracted to men that are viewed as "bad"? Obviously that would be a big no no for a women and she will deny it to make herself look better. There isn't anything wrong with that, but you have to learn not to listen to women when it comes to finding what attracts women.
> 
> Does it suck for guys who are inherently nice and have no interest in pretending otherwise? Yes, but that is life. Either adapt your game or find yourself in the same situation. *This means that not only do you not have to be a doormat (most people will say oh nice guys are doormats when this isn't true), but you have to actually force yourself to be aggressive.*


----------



## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Nidhoggr said:


> "_We have to be careful in this era of feminism, not to emphasize an equality of the sexes that leads women to imitate men to prove their equality. To be equal does not mean you have to be the same."_
> 
> Give it a rest. I'm not here to portray an outlook that reflects any level of thought that woman are unequal in any way, shape, or form to men, so I'd appreciate that my posts weren't picked apart by anyone, not you, rednosereindeer nor any other gal especially when I do my best to be genuine and offer genuine advice/ opinion.
> 
> That's all I have to say.


Thanks for the quote but I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything right now. I haven't really been trying to discuss my beliefs on feminism with you at all, and I don't really need you or anyone else to tell me how I should or shouldn't conduct myself as a feminist.

I wasn't picking apart your post, but sorry you saw it as such. You have been pretty condescending towards me in this thread, and I was simply replying to you. If you don't want me to respond, then don't come at me like that.

I didn't think you were saying that women are unequal. At all. I never said anything to even remotely imply that I thought that. I think you have some kind of idea in your mind that I'm a man hating feminist who's out to get you. In reality, I don't know you and I have no beef with you whatsoever. Contrary to what you seem to think, I don't hold any kind of negative view towards all men. Discussing gender issues and sexism does not equal hating men.

I'm curious what genuine advice you were referring to? As I recall, you came into this thread to insult rednosereindeer and I, while telling us that we should basically sit down and shut up (i.e. stop posting our thoughts). Then when we did neither, and actually countered your points without resorting to insults, you suddenly start trying to play the victim. Very interesting indeed.



Nidhoggr said:


> All I am saying is maybe ya'll should just chill out and relax a little. You might save yourself a few headaches where your words don't have much of an effect anyway, contrary to what any given OP's intentions may be.


I think you're the one who might want to relax. If certain gentlemen here can discuss their beliefs on women, then we are free to post our counterpoints. That's pretty much what happens on forums. People discuss things.



anomalous said:


> And the flip side of that is, more than a few of the guys she knows IRL and considers to be "_real_ nice guys" probably have some of the same thoughts and opinions that you and I are articulating.
> 
> Oh, anonymity; the best invention of our age.


lol no. Thankfully I purged guys like you from my life a long time ago. I know you think you're all stealthy and ****, but trust me, if your attitude is this apparent through the written word, then I'd be willing to bet money that it's pretty transparent irl too.

So basically what you and Tpower are saying is that you guys are fake? You act nice when really you think terrible things? That's pretty much the definition of the kind of "nice guy" that women hate. Not genuine nice men, but guys who put up a front and pretend to be nice b/c they think it will get them what they want, then bawwww when people see through them and they don't get their way.

And what exactly is the difference between someone who hides their "bad boy" side, and one who is up front about it? Sounds like you are still two sides of the same coin. But keep on being condescending and smug like you were in your replies to Atticus and add2list. You're just proving us all right with each post tbh.

Protip - a genuinely nice person would not be replying to people the way you have been in this thread, nor would they view women, or any other group, the way you do.



anomalous said:


> So far, I've noted roughly an equal number of "yes" vs. "no" female replies WRT whether they personally like bad boys. A slew of other responses neglected to address their personal preference entirely, instead saying things like, "a lot of girls do, but it's usually just a phase." While I won't claim knowledge of these wishy-washy posters' personal preferences in the absence of their stating it outright, I would note that there's every incentive in the world on a board like SAS to say "I don't prefer them!" if that is indeed the case.
> 
> In totality, the responses so far are hardly a rejection of my position: that _the majority_ of women do, indeed, like bad boys. (In most circles, this wouldn't even be up for debate; the only question would be the precise definition of "bad boy"). I've never claimed there weren't exceptions to the rule. And by "the rule," I don't even mean that the exceptions are necessarily needle-in-the-haystack rare. Just the minority.


There have been other threads where the response was overwhelmingly in opposition to your beliefs. Instead of entertaining the idea that you are wrong, you have insisted in the past that the women who don't support your beliefs are either lying to be "politically correct" or don't really know what they want or are a minority. You have no proof whatsoever to support any of which.

You seem to do a lot of cherry picking when it comes to selecting the posts that support what you believe, while ignoring or dismissing altogether those that don't. For someone who claims to be so fair and logical, you certainly do conduct yourself in a very contrary manor when your views on women are involved.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

shynesshellasucks said:


> I think women like excitement. The stereotypical nice guys are doormats and boring so they bring no fun or excitement to the table. I think it is possible to be fun and attractive to women while at the same time being nice. I think the other problem that arises with nice guys is that they are needy and this is a turn off for women.


I agree with this post. You can still be interesting/unpredictable without doing anything illegal or acting like a jerk.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

anomalous said:


> But it wasn't just one response; I just chose to address that particular one because it so clearly articulated the mindset I find repugnant.
> 
> So far, I've noted roughly an equal number of "yes" vs. "no" female replies WRT whether they personally like bad boys. A slew of other responses neglected to address their personal preference entirely, instead saying things like, "a lot of girls do, but it's usually just a phase." While I won't claim knowledge of these wishy-washy posters' personal preferences in the absence of their stating it outright, I would note that there's every incentive in the world on a board like SAS to say "I don't prefer them!" if that is indeed the case.
> 
> ...


Let's say you're right that perhaps 80% of women notice and appreciate "chest thumping" men, and if those 80% of women were designing their perfect partner, he'd be a chest thumper. Let's agree that this is what a preference means.

Are you better off focusing on the other 20% of women, or lamenting the preferences of the 80% who you believe don't care for you and whose attitudes you find repugnant?

Then there's the issue of what a preference means. For some people a preference is loose and nothing like a requirement; for others it's a misuse of the word to avoid looking rigid when one is in fact rigid. It can be hard to discern. My point is that among women (or men) who state any preference, some will be very flexible. Some people who prefer brown eyed people are in very happy and fulfilling relationships with people with green eyes.

Your argument from another post regarding the societal value (my wording) of certain traits seems to be a reach. For most of human history physical strength/fitness and courage probably had more survival value than a pretty face. Strength or fitness and courage have only become luxuries the last few hundred years for most ordinary people.

If outward displays of a strong character or a strong body are akin to "chest thumping" it makes more sense to me that those qualities would still have value at least on an instinctive, grab your attention level because they've only become relative luxuries the last several hundred years. It also makes sense that in a world where we face few real physical challenges, these historically valuable traits can seem distorted or contrived, but that doesn't change their instinctive appeal.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

au Lait said:


> So basically what you and Tpower are saying is that you guys are fake? You act nice when really you think terrible things? That's pretty much the definition of the kind of "nice guy" that women hate. Not genuine nice men, but guys who put up a front and pretend to be nice b/c they think it will get them what they want, then bawwww when people see through them and they don't get their way.
> 
> And what exactly is the difference between someone who hides their "bad boy" side, and one who is up front about it?


I don't.

Just last weekend, I went to a family party, met a girl, we all ended up going to the bar after. She started acting arrogant at some point and was very impolite to me. Don't get me wrong, she was very attractive.

I didn't think twice before asking her who the hell she thought she was and telling her to STFU.

Now if that makes me a bad boy, I certainly don't feel like it.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Atticus said:


> Let's say you're right that perhaps 80% of women notice and appreciate "chest thumping" men, and if those 80% of women were designing their perfect partner, he'd be a chest thumper. Let's agree that this is what a preference means.
> 
> Are you better off focusing on the other 20% of women, or lamenting the preferences of the 80% who you believe don't care for you and whose attitudes you find repugnant?


Well, the answer to that is admittedly obvious. Unfortunately, my experience in the setting I find myself in suggests significantly less than 20%. I don't mean to say this is true everywhere, but simply as a practical matter, I've encountered so few of that "20%" that I'm left with few better outlets for my sexual/romantic frustration than to sit on SAS griping about it.

Let me ask you this, though: let's say that your hypothetical numbers are fairly accurate. (I know you never implied that and likely don't believe they are, but I sense you're not completely closed to the idea). Or hell, let's say it's more like 65/35. Would you not agree that there are a _lot_ of posters here who are close-minded about that possibility, and that should such numbers ever somehow be vindicated (doubtful as that may be), their incessant outrage will have been all for naught?

I'll freely admit that part of what drives me back into these spars again and again is sheer annoyance at how dogmatic the "other side" can be. I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, at least. It almost feels like an agnostic vs. fundamentalist Christian debate, to me. The preponderance of name-calling, bigot-labeling, and calls for censorship are vastly greater on one side.



> Then there's the issue of what a preference means. For some people a preference is loose and nothing like a requirement; for others it's a misuse of the word to avoid looking rigid when one is in fact rigid. It can be hard to discern. My point is that among women (or men) who state any preference, some will be very flexible. Some people who prefer brown eyed people are in very happy and fulfilling relationships with people with green eyes.


This is true, and I probably lose sight of it too often. I'm so bothered by this particular "preference" that I almost feel I couldn't accept someone who holds it, even if they were willing to accept me. That's my own problem, perhaps.



> Your argument from another post regarding the societal value (my wording) of certain traits seems to be a reach. For most of human history physical strength/fitness and courage probably had more survival value than a pretty face. Strength or fitness and courage have only become luxuries the last few hundred years for most ordinary people.
> 
> If outward displays of a strong character or a strong body are akin to "chest thumping" it makes more sense to me that those qualities would still have value at least on an instinctive, grab your attention level because they've only become relative luxuries the last several hundred years. It also makes sense that in a world where we face few real physical challenges, these historically valuable traits can seem distorted or contrived, but that doesn't change their instinctive appeal.


These are an excellent couple of paragraphs. If it wasn't already clear, I am in complete agreement with all of this. And though your tone suggests otherwise, I dare say that it largely aligns with the position I'm advocating and that people like au Lait find so offensive, so I'd be interested to hear her response to it. Invoking biological and evolutionary explanations has historically led to lots of crying foul on here, so if in this instance it's acceptable, the reason intrigues me.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

au Lait said:


> lol no. Thankfully I purged guys like you from my life a long time ago. I know you think you're all stealthy and ****, but trust me, if your attitude is this apparent through the written word, then I'd be willing to bet money that it's pretty transparent irl too.


And I'd be willing to bet it isn't, and that you still at times misjudge the real feelings of some men. (Either that, or you simply avoid men who are chronically starved for female companionship completely, in which case perhaps you really never encounter this issue). We can leave it at that.



> So basically what you and Tpower are saying is that you guys are fake? You act nice when really you think terrible things? That's pretty much the definition of the kind of "nice guy" that women hate. Not genuine nice men, but guys who put up a front and pretend to be nice b/c they think it will get them what they want, then bawwww when people see through them and they don't get their way.


This paragraph makes it quite clear that you never actually read anything I write. No, no, and no. We don't think "terrible things," by any reasonable definition. There's no front. As you go through a typical day, how often does the topic of "do women like bad boys?" come up? Unless you live in bizarro world where the answer is non-zero, then clearly a man can hold my position on that one issue and still have conversations with women where no "front" is required, because neither party talks about it.

Only in the case that a woman asks me what I think of girls' preferences in guys, and I smile and say "oh, you're so much more evolved and mature than us sex-crazed men, I wish we were more like you!" am I putting on a front. Guess how many times that's happened?



> And what exactly is the difference between someone who hides their "bad boy" side, and one who is up front about it? Sounds like you are still two sides of the same coin. But keep on being condescending and smug like you were in your replies to Atticus and add2list. You're just proving us all right with each post tbh.


Because we don't have a ****ing bad boy side. Sulking about women's preferences != bad boy. My goodness.



> Protip - a genuinely nice person would not be replying to people the way you have been in this thread, nor would they view women, or any other group, the way you do.


Right back at ya, I guess. I've behaved no worse than you or anyone else here. Stop blaming "the way" I'm posting, when your issue is really just the content of what I'm posting -- specifically, that it conflicts with your own beliefs.



> There have been other threads where the response was overwhelmingly in opposition to your beliefs. Instead of entertaining the idea that you are wrong, you have insisted in the past that the women who don't support your beliefs are either lying to be "politically correct" or don't really know what they want or are a minority. You have no proof whatsoever to support any of which.
> 
> You seem to do a lot of cherry picking when it comes to selecting the posts that support what you believe, while ignoring or dismissing altogether those that don't. For someone who claims to be so fair and logical, you certainly do conduct yourself in a very contrary manor when your views on women are involved.


I don't know about that. I don't recall any threads where the response was "overwhelmingly" one way or the other. Maybe if it was worded a certain way you could elicit that response (i.e., "do you like serial killers? do you like abusers?").

Regarding the part about women lying, you're exaggerating. I've always maintained that if an individual woman states she doesn't like X, then I'm obliged to give her the benefit of the doubt as an individual. I do *not* think that every woman who says that is lying. (Also of note is that a woman giving an answer in conflict with the reality of who she finds herself attracted to does not necessarily constitute outright lying. It could just be a lack of self-awareness.)

BUT... if you're looking at a large sample of responses to a question such as "do you like bad boys?," the bias is fully expected to lean toward one side. Say you conduct a poll in public with the question, "do you masturbate daily?" or "did you cheat your way through school?" or "_is your penis small_?" Would you not agree the real answer is probably different, in a predictable way, than the poll suggests?


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

mistyeyes said:


> Ok.. I'm not saying my preferences are TYPICAL.. and to be honest I do understand why you're becoming defensive over what I'm saying as in my opinion most guys go for the tall blond size zero with zero personality. I find that frustrating as hell because I am none of those things (thank god! I don't want to be!!). And no, I don't mean all guys, just a lot.
> 
> This reminds me of what Barney on "How I Met Your Mother" explained during one episode; the correlation between beauty and craziness. The better looking the chick is, the more she gets away with. I believe that 100% for both sexes. Sorry but it's true.
> 
> ...


For some reason, I got a quote notification for this yesterday and then the post wasn't there when I clicked the thread, so I missed it. Weird ****.

Anyway, this is a great post, and I appreciate your time in writing it.

I know you didn't say your preferences were typical. I just made that assumption based on my life experiences, much as you make the assumption that "a lot of" guys go for the tall blonde bimbo (which I don't really dispute). I think we basically agree here.

Your point about the two different levels of attraction is especially good. I think I have this possibly-unreasonable expectation that if I don't have appeal of the first, "want to jump in bed with him" type, a relationship is either impossible or at least ill-advised; that the girl will always get bored of the second, less glamorous type eventually. That fear may be overreaching on my part due to insecurity and frustration, though it's also bolstered by watching what different types of guys I know have gone through.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm a nice guy who isn't a doormat, who keeps things interesting, pleases my girl sexually and then some, surprises her, listens to what she has to say, is open and honest. The girl I'm with has never dated a guy who has pleased her like I did while still keeping her on her toes. I am proud to call myself a NICE GUY.


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## Lottoman (Nov 9, 2010)

People need to take off the rose-colored glasses for once. We don't live in some near utopic world where everybody gives each other a fair shake. The dating world is full of bigots and shallow people. The high divorce and infidelity rates will tell you that finding a partner who is a genuinely nice and decent person is a pretty difficult feat for many of us.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Honestly, I don't know anymore!

I do know that, as a rule, the bad boys are more sexually attractive, at least on the outside. That's probably why most women go for them, instead of the geeks.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

Some do, a lot don't. Some have in the past and don't want to anymore. Some never have and want to. Some never have and never will. & Some always have and always will. Depends on the woman.


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)




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## missalyssa (Jun 18, 2011)

Not bad, just not boring.
Niceness should be a given, I wouldn't date someone who is NOT nice, but if being nice is their main quality it comes off as boring. I want someone with backbone, with a sense for adventure... Not some meek, timid, scared goody-two-shoes.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

missalyssa said:


> Not bad, just not boring.
> Niceness should be a given, I wouldn't date someone who is NOT nice, but if being nice is their main quality it comes off as boring. I want someone with backbone, with a sense for adventure... Not some meek, timid, scared goody-two-shoes.


The irony in all that is that, as a person with social anxiety, you're probably like that yourself.


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## missalyssa (Jun 18, 2011)

TPower said:


> The irony in all that is that, as a person with social anxiety, you're probably like that yourself.


Nawh , not all people with social anxiety are the same


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

For the record, girls with social anxiety are more likely to date guys with social anxiety.

The problem is that both are probably hiding in their house, and never go out and meet each other.


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## scum (Jun 30, 2011)

Doctorius said:


> I think there is a misconception of the term "Bad boy". Bad boy doesnt always equal the bad, lying, abusive scum like many men/women think. Some bad boys are all that but most of them are not. From my point of view, the bad boy is outgoing and social. He also has many hobbies and he usually knows how to dress and has a distinctive style. He has balls and attitude, and isnt shy! He radiates masculinity and alpha-male characteristics. So its natural all ladies LOVE him and are attracted to him. Then the other guys(call them "good" guys if you want) get jealous and start talking ****. They see him like the devil who abuses the ladies. They think he is a guy with no goal in life and just a show-off jerk. However, they never EVER met him in person to understand what kind of person he really is and just continue bad mouthing him and crying because he has many girl followers. To conclude, in this time and age, it all comes down to SOCIAL or ANTI-SOCIAL. There are not many men-hunters and the ones left are so misread. IMO, bad boy is just another stereotype(like the geek) that people invented so they will forget their own complexes and flaws and just feel comfortable with themselves. Appearances can be deceiving these days...


wow! i think i'll staple a sticky of this to my forehead for motivation


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## Marakunda (Jun 7, 2011)

Threads like these depress me.

Such generalization...


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## scum (Jun 30, 2011)

> missalyssa said:
> 
> 
> > Not bad, _*just not boring*_.
> ...


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## seafolly (Jun 17, 2010)

No. 

What the OP is describing does sound like high school though. It's a little surprising how many girls would seem to take enjoyment out of complaining about their boyfriends together. Then again, that's just as annoying as girls boasting about whose boyfriend is better. High school girls are not mature. Sorry, high schoolers in general are not mature when it comes to relationships. 

I never went through that "wanting a bad boy" phase. I'm all for the guy who calls when he says he will, has some sort of ambition (I don't care if he wants to rule the world or if he wants to be the best stick person artist), has a good heart, etc etc. I think a lot of girls prefer that and that becomes the majority once they start to realize what they want in life. Much better to have a good reliable person by your side than someone who causes drama. I think that goes for both genders - guys quit wanting the dramatic high maintenance girls eventually.


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## scum (Jun 30, 2011)

seafolly said:


> No.
> 
> What the OP is describing does sound like high school though. It's a little surprising how many girls would seem to take enjoyment out of complaining about their boyfriends together. Then again, that's just as annoying as girls boasting about whose boyfriend is better. High school girls are not mature. Sorry, high schoolers in general are not mature when it comes to relationships.
> 
> I never went through that "wanting a bad boy" phase. I'm all for the guy who calls when he says he will, has some sort of ambition (I don't care if he wants to rule the world or if he wants to be the *best stick person artist*), has a good heart, etc etc. I think a lot of girls prefer that and that becomes the majority once they start to realize what they want in life. Much better to have a good reliable person by your side than someone who causes drama. I think that goes for both genders - guys quit wanting the dramatic high maintenance girls eventually.


great vision! i wish i was less of an ignoramus, thus having a chance to meet people with your level of perspicacity, and maintain interest. unfortunately, the imbalance would be untenable at this point.

as far as stick persons go...i'm really glad to hear we have a fighting chance, to begin with...but, how much ambitionz would i need to infuse, to attract genuine potentialness in my character, gesture and figure? i'm having trouble calculating in nanotech units...there must be minimum cutoff in spite of subjectivity.


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## GPU (Nov 5, 2011)

Nidhoggr said:


>


lol... that's a bad boy wannabe.


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## jamesd (Feb 17, 2011)

I don't see the point of these threads. No one is going to admit that they can be shallow and a little vain at times. Never listen to what people say, watch what they do.


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## GPU (Nov 5, 2011)




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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Insecure women look for everybody's approval all the time, so they will never admit having a shallow or terrible behavior. They already have the nice guy's approval. But not the bad guy's.

If they have one-nights, they won't openly talk about it, fearing they'll be judged. If they date *******s based on their _presumed_ popularity with girls, they'll justify it by saying they are attracted to their confidence. If they date a guy based purely on his handsome physique, they'll say it's because of their personality and not their physique. They don't want to appear shallow.

Women don't assume what they do. Truly confident girls won't date a guy based on his popularity because they know their own worth - they don't need to prove to themselves, or others, that they can get the guy everybody else wants.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

GPU said:


>


Male lion gets *****slapped by a girl when he tries to be help his girlfriend.


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## guppy88 (Nov 12, 2010)

seafolly said:


> No.
> 
> What the OP is describing does sound like high school though. It's a little surprising how many girls would seem to take enjoyment out of complaining about their boyfriends together. Then again, that's just as annoying as girls boasting about whose boyfriend is better. High school girls are not mature. Sorry, high schoolers in general are not mature when it comes to relationships.
> 
> I never went through that "wanting a bad boy" phase. I'm all for the guy who calls when he says he will, has some sort of ambition (I don't care if he wants to rule the world or if he wants to be the best stick person artist), has a good heart, etc etc. I think a lot of girls prefer that and that becomes the majority once they start to realize what they want in life. Much better to have a good reliable person by your side than someone who causes drama. I think that goes for both genders - guys quit wanting the dramatic high maintenance girls eventually.


Yeah, there are girls out there that want bad boys, but those are the girls that give guys a hard *** time and cheat on everyone. They're not mature, and most of them are young if not in high-school. These kind of stereotype relationships don't last very long normally.


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## seafolly (Jun 17, 2010)

guppy88 said:


> Yeah, there are girls out there that want bad boys, but those are the girls that give guys a hard *** time and cheat on everyone. They're not mature, and most of them are young if not in high-school. These kind of stereotype relationships don't last very long normally.


I quite agree. My sister only goes for the bad boys (I'm defining that as the type who sell drugs and generally don't care about anyone but themselves) but she is pretty darn immature and I've never seen their faces (backs of their heads if I'm lucky). That's from my parents - no sibling spite tainting that observation. Unfortunately one has lasted three years.


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## guppy88 (Nov 12, 2010)

seafolly said:


> I quite agree. My sister only goes for the bad boys (I'm defining that as the type who sell drugs and generally don't care about anyone but themselves) but she is pretty darn immature and I've never seen their faces (backs of their heads if I'm lucky). That's from my parents - no sibling spite tainting that observation. Unfortunately one has lasted three years.


Yeah, not too long ago I was under the impression that's what all girls wanted, but then I took a step back and saw the larger people and the statistics.

Most of the people who have no respect for the rules have a very immature, and don't really know how to take care of themselves let alone anyone else. These people generally aren't to smart which is why they don't care much for being nice or following the rules.


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## GPU (Nov 5, 2011)

heroin said:


> Male lion gets *****slapped by a girl when he tries to be help his girlfriend.


wow... my main point just went in one ear and out the other.... and lest not forget that the male lion was young (you have to be observant and knowledgeable to understand that) so this video does not prove anything. just that you don't know anything... at least, regarding this.

where was the male tiger at trying to defend the female tiger at (at least i take your word for it in that the tiger in that video is a female tiger)?

where will you ever see an elephant fight a hippo in real life besides in a man made controlled zoo?

you are about to get on my bad side... 

didn't the male lion help the female lion in both videos?

on a side note: you are proud to be a "pervert" as your status states... also... you like to use heroin right?

i see you are online... i will wait for your answer just for you


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## jamesd (Feb 17, 2011)

TPower said:


> If they have one-nights, they won't openly talk about it, fearing they'll be judged. If they date *******s based on their _presumed_ popularity with girls, they'll justify it by saying they are attracted to their confidence. If they date a guy based purely on his handsome physique, they'll say it's because of their personality and not their physique. They don't want to appear shallow.


Why do people pretend that physical attraction is not important or that people are shallow for preferring to date good looking people? Looks are very important that's a FACT. Yet people keep trying to imply that it's not. I don't know if people are just not comfortable enough to admit this or don't want to seem vain. I don't understand it myself.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

jamesd said:


> Why do people pretend that physical attraction is not important or that people are shallow for preferring to date good looking people? Looks are very important that's a FACT. Yet people keep trying to imply that it's not. I don't know if people are just not comfortable enough to admit this or don't want to seem vain. I don't understand it myself.


People try to be politically correct or wear rose colored glasses.


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## GPU (Nov 5, 2011)

> Why do people pretend that physical attraction is not important or that people are shallow for preferring to date good looking people? Looks are very important that's a FACT. Yet people keep trying to imply that it's not. I don't know if people are just not comfortable enough to admit this or don't want to seem vain. I don't understand it myself.


 well, I didn't quite understand this when I was about in 4rth grade. I was sitting in front of my classroom more concerned in my teacher not spitting on my desk while she talked. Yes, she would always stand in front of my desk and, when ever she did that, I would try to stay as far back in my chair.... Trying to avoid the little droplets of spit coming out of her mouth when she spoke... lol. i could not tell her to not stand infront of my desk because she spits when she talks... lol

If you know your place, you know not to go for the best looking female in your class unless you have been with a really beautiful female before in your life. So you know who is beautiful, regarding the physical right away... and you should know your place too. So I knew she was hot so I did not even think twice of her being with me.... there was a guy at least 4-5 inches taller than me that liked her (females like tall guys... supposedly). Hey, I just thought to myself to tell him, go for it dude. i wish you the best. But then this guy gives me a note from this beautiful female and it freaks me out. She was breaking the rules and going for the ugly... me. I swear to god, I rejected her like she was the devil. She signed me up for dances and I dropped from them, she would comb my hair and I would feel awkward. I felt like she was acting like my mother. To put in in perspective, her ex-BF was bigger than me and a bully. I was nothing but why was she all over me?

Lol... it's complicated. But all I am saying is that you are right but yet you are not 100% correct.


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## BilliAnn (Nov 14, 2011)

Interesting question and answer why women like bad boys! What do you think of this:
http://www.youtube.com/user/datinginthezone#p/u/2/NISuV6bz-cU


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## JimmyDeansRetartedCousin (Nov 28, 2009)

Rex92 said:


> Well at least during some point in their life anyway?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not worth thinking about in my opinion, just get on with owning whatever it is that you do, and ignore that silly old cliche. It doesn't matter.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Same old stuff, all over again.

Personally, I don't feel that all women like dating bad boys...but the unstable ones usually do.


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## David777 (Feb 6, 2011)

Oh, wise and all knowing Tom Leykis. You now have a new follower!

Lead me!!! :nw


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## falling down (Oct 17, 2011)

Alpha males are where it's at....


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## Miss Bee (Oct 15, 2011)

I am attracted to bad boys. One stole my first kiss this past weekend, and he didn't go easy on me. We ended up kissing a lot, though nothing more because I had boundaries. However, I should note that though I did end up hooking up with a friend who is a bad boy whom I am attracted to for his fearless approach to life, I would never date him. It was a nice experience, but not again I hope. I am still attracted to him and it is worrisome. However, innocence is what I want in a relationship. I think innocence is the most beautiful attribute and I desire security.


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## anthrotex (Oct 24, 2011)

Bad boys are so ****ing annoying. They need to grow up.


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## BilliAnn (Nov 14, 2011)

anthrotex said:


> Bad boys are so ****ing annoying. They need to grow up.


Yeah!!


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

For the love of gawd. A friend of mine just recently got a girlfriend and he's a nice, sweet guy. Women are individuals. They have individual preferences.

I have listened to Tom Leykis' radio show. That guy is a douche. Don't follow his "teachings".


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Ugly to average looking girls are more likely to date nice guys.

Attractive women get so much attention from men that they won't settle for anything less than a popular/successful guy. Since not everyone is Donald Trump, they will also pick partners based on how much women they assume, those guys get.

Jerkoffs treat women like ****, so they assume they are in high demand. High demand = she feels special once she gets him between the sheets.

Believe me, most "bad boys" know exactly what they're doing. If women were actually attracted to nice and caring men, you can bet your life "bad boys" would be close to extinction.
You're like my brother / You're my best friend means either;

- You're ugly. Sorry.
- You're not up to my level. Sorry.


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

^^ So you're saying most popular, successful, confident guys don't treat women well?


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## falling down (Oct 17, 2011)

emptybottle2 said:


> ^^ So you're saying most popular, successful, confident guys don't treat women well?


How did you deduce that from his post?


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

falling down said:


> How did you deduce that from his post?


Okay, it was a mistake for me to think that. I overreacted. I shouldn't have jumped into this kind of discussion.

I know it's been said lots of times already, but guys, not actively treating women like sh** isn't enough to make you a good person. Constantly ranting about how women are shallow because they can't see what a catch you are makes you an *ss who women should run from, tbh.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

TPower said:


> Ugly to average looking girls are more likely to date nice guys.
> 
> Attractive women get so much attention from men that they won't settle for anything less than a popular/successful guy. Since not everyone is Donald Trump, they will also pick partners based on how much women they assume, those guys get.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Attractive women may be more choosy. But that doesn't equate to all attractive women wanting "bad boys". I'd imagine that MENTALLY STABLE attractive women tend to lean towards wanting a guy who has the right mix of so-called "masculine" and "sensitive" traits.

At the end of the day, it is what it is. Attractive women have their pick of the litter. And if you don't like it, tough. The people who price themselves out of the market will be forced due to the pressures of the dating market to lower their standards as necessary. It sounds a bit "shallow" when I put it that way but dating is a lot like economics.


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## falling down (Oct 17, 2011)

emptybottle2 said:


> Okay, it was a mistake for me to think that. I overreacted. I shouldn't have jumped into this kind of discussion.
> 
> I know it's been said lots of times already, but guys, not actively treating women like sh** isn't enough to make you a good person. Constantly ranting about how women are shallow because they can't see what a catch you are makes you an *ss who women should run from, tbh.


Why does a man have to be a "catch" for a woman to love him? Most men have much lower expectations when it comes to women.

I don't know if it's been said but women expecting their men to fit a Mr. Perfect fantasy and be a "catch", which I can only assume places superficial things like career, money, looks, physical features and fitness ahead of who the guy is and how much love he has inside to give, doesn't make you a good person and makes you an *ss who men should run from and leave them to tend to their 10 cats, tbh.


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

falling down said:


> Why does a man have to be a "catch" for a woman to love him? Most men have much lower expectations when it comes to women.
> 
> I don't know if it's been said but women expecting their men to fit a Mr. Perfect fantasy and be a "catch", which I can only assume places superficial things like career, money, looks, physical features and fitness ahead of who the guy is and how much love he has inside to give, doesn't make you a good person and makes you an *ss who men should run from and leave them to tend to their 10 cats, tbh.


What are you talking about? I wasn't implying a man had to be a "catch" with all those things going for him. I was only referring to a certain type of self-professed nice guy, the one who's puzzled that women don't see his great qualities (what a catch he is) and concludes that it's because women are shallow.

Nice parody post, though.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> I disagree. Attractive women may be more choosy. But that doesn't equate to all attractive women wanting "bad boys". I'd imagine that MENTALLY STABLE attractive women tend to lean towards wanting a guy who has the right mix of so-called "masculine" and "sensitive" traits.
> 
> At the end of the day, it is what it is. Attractive women have their pick of the litter. And if you don't like it, tough. The people who price themselves out of the market will be forced due to the pressures of the dating market to lower their standards as necessary. It sounds a bit "shallow" when I put it that way but dating is a lot like economics.


They don't want bad boys, they want to feel special. And they get that feeling when they're with a guy who they know - or think - is coveted by other women.

Take any Hollywood A-List star, make him unconfident and awkward around women. He'll still get women because, as a well-known celebrity, they can't fathom for a single second that this guy is anything but desired by women and idolized by thousands of people around the globe.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

komorikun said:


> That's not true. Men have low expectations when it comes to sex but not to relationships.


ROFL! +1! That is so true.


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## falling down (Oct 17, 2011)

emptybottle2 said:


> What are you talking about? I wasn't implying a man had to be a "catch" with all those things going for him. I was only referring to a certain type of self-professed nice guy, the one who's puzzled that women don't see his great qualities (what a catch he is) and concludes that it's because women are shallow.
> 
> Nice parody post, though.


I can't stand when women or men for that matter, make statements like this:

*"not actively treating women like sh** isn't enough to make you a good person. Constantly ranting about how women are shallow because they can't see what a catch you are makes you an *ss who women should run from" *

It just assumes that the guys you are speaking of are just ranting thoughtlessly and excludes the possibility that the guys you're talking about may be speaking from experiences they have had with the opposite sex and are literally speaking from the heart or from knowledge they have obtained from the experience that has shaped their thought process and opinion.



komorikun said:


> That's not true. Men have low expectations when it comes to sex but not to relationships.


How many men do you know that have a shopping list like a lot of women do when it comes to potential relationships with women that include things like:

-Must have well paying career/job
-Must have wonderful lifestyle
-Must make XXXXXX number of dollars per year
-Must have goals, ambition, passion, intelligence 
-Must be handsome
-Must be fit and work out at least 3-4 times a week
-Must have full head of hair
-Must be great in bed and experienced
-Must be adventurous and sociable
-Must own own house, condo, or luxury apartment and nice car
-Must be fashionable and trendy
-Must be funny
-Must come from wonderful loving family and have great relationship with mom and dad
-Must be vegan or not be vegan
-Must not be cheap 
-etc. etc. etc.

How many of these things do you actually think guys think about when trying to date or look for a relationship? Most guys just want a beautiful woman, who is nice, has a wonderful personality and is fun to be with and maybe/maybe not have their own job/career. There are not a lot of demands when it comes to men and what they want from women.


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

It is about being able to protect a woman. Not every woman cares about that ,but some do. Those women also think the bully ones can protect them, but some of those bullies also bully their women and that becomes a problem in the end.

I am not talking about burglary etc. when I say "protecting a woman". I think it has something to do with what we men have been doing till 19th or 20th century.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

falling down said:


> How many men do you know that have a shopping list like a lot of women do when it comes to potential relationships with women that include things like:
> 
> -Must have well paying career/job
> -Must have wonderful lifestyle
> ...


If those girls can find their checklist man, great. If they can't, they will have to remove or alter some of those things on their checklist because they initially priced themselves out of the market. They will be forced to realistically adjust their standards as they get older. Or else they'll end up alone like my sister, who whines that it's so hard to find a good man. I already told her that she is incredibly picky and needs to give chances to guys. If I met a girl with my sister's personality, I would think she's a snob and be turned off.


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## abstractdreamer (Dec 4, 2011)

Reading through this thread I see "men this" and "women that"?

Do you know how depressing that is to read? People are people. Be yourself. If you become a bad boy to get girls to like you, they don't like you, they like the facade. You may get girls, but in the end, you'll eventually feel fake and will have no satisfaction.

I seriously don't understand where this tom guy(I cbf looking up his name again from the video) gets off. I have 2 sisters who are with nice guys, who don't treat them like **** at all.

Yes the world is shallow. I'm average in looks. I hate it and I do get insecure. But this is the world. But someone told me yesterday that life is a ***** only when you make it out to be. Instead of complaining and forcing yourself to be someone else, be your own person.

Be patient. You'll see that bad boys aren't in demand when people become more mature, i.e after the early twenties, from what I've observed. 

People are people. Not some creatures to hate or bash on or to analyse bitterly. End of story.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

falling down said:


> How many men do you know that have a shopping list like a lot of women do when it comes to potential relationships with women that include things like:
> 
> -Must have well paying career/job
> -Must have wonderful lifestyle
> ...


Maybe some women have that listed on their dating profile but I highly doubt they will find it. Most are much more realistic than that. Being beautiful is a huge demand. Women spend tons of money and time on clothes, makeup, dieting, haircuts, bikini waxes, plastic surgery, etc. in order to compete with other women. In fact, there was a guy here on this forum who said part of the reason he broke up with his girlfriend is because she was slightly (probably like 5 pounds or so) heavier than he liked.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

falling down said:


> Why does a man have to be a "catch" for a woman to love him? Most men have much lower expectations when it comes to women.
> 
> I don't know if it's been said but women expecting their men to fit a Mr. Perfect fantasy and be a "catch", which I can only assume places superficial things like career, money, looks, physical features and fitness ahead of who the guy is and how much love he has inside to give, doesn't make you a good person and makes you an *ss who men should run from and leave them to tend to their 10 cats, tbh.


I read a quote somewhere. "Women don't love men, they love how men make them feel about themselves".


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## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

Bad boy, schmad boy. This is what I want:


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

proximo20 said:


> It is about being able to protect a woman. Not every woman cares about that ,but some do. Those women also think the bully ones can protect them, but some of those bullies also bully their women and that becomes a problem in the end.
> 
> I am not talking about burglary etc. when I say "protecting a woman". I think it has something to do with what we men have been doing till 19th or 20th century.


*Only morons would look at a nice guy and think he wouldn't defend something.*

Once again, people confuse "nice guy" with pushover and insecure. Once you get that irrelevant notion out of your head you can begin to realize that "nice guy" is just a guy who is nice; there is no insecure connection. A man who is insecure shouldn't be called "nice" but rather just insecure because that is technically what he is, and a man who is nice should simply be called "nice" without an insecure notion.

Duh.

So yes, a nice guy can and most likely will defend what he deems worth defending. If he doesn't defend something that doesn't make him insecure either because he could choose not to defend something on other reasons beyond insecurity or fear.

On the other hand, a "bad boy", which is another retarded term, could also not defend a woman, and by your logic that would make him a "nice guy" (pushover, etc).

These "nice guy" correlations with pushover and insecurity need to stop NOW. They are some of the worst correlated terms and they are new age BS.


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

bwidger85 said:


> *Only morons would look at a nice guy and think he wouldn't defend something.*
> 
> Once again, people confuse "nice guy" with pushover and insecure. Once you get that irrelevant notion out of your head you can begin to realize that "nice guy" is just a guy who is nice; there is no insecure connection. A man who is insecure shouldn't be called "nice" but rather just insecure because that is technically what he is, and a man who is nice should simply be called "nice" without an insecure notion.
> 
> ...


Did you write this when you were drunk? Where did I say nice guys are pushovers? I just said some women think bad boys are tough and some women care about that.

Anyway I forgive your indirect insults as I believe you misunderstood me.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

proximo20 said:


> Did you write this when you were drunk? Where did I say nice guys are pushovers? I just said some women think bad boys are tough and some women care about that.
> 
> Anyway I forgive your indirect insults as I believe you misunderstood me.


It wasn't direct attack at you. Some people believe these things. Probably shouldn't quoted you but w/e, my bad.


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## dontdreamitbeit (Jun 7, 2011)

Honestly, I think the majority of girls would be attracted to "the bad boy" over the nice guy. But only for a while.

Speaking from past experiences with "bad boys" I can safely say, never again.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I think some people just get lucky. Being a "bad boy", or whatever, has nothing to do with it.


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## helena (Oct 24, 2011)

bad boys wrapped in sheeps clothing. nowt better than a geek with a dark side.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> *Only morons would look at a nice guy and think he wouldn't defend something.*
> 
> Once again, people confuse "nice guy" with pushover and insecure. Once you get that irrelevant notion out of your head you can begin to realize that "nice guy" is just a guy who is nice; there is no insecure connection. A man who is insecure shouldn't be called "nice" but rather just insecure because that is technically what he is, and a man who is nice should simply be called "nice" without an insecure notion.
> 
> ...


+1


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## falling down (Oct 17, 2011)

helena said:


> bad boys wrapped in sheeps clothing. nowt better than a geek with a dark side.


:wtf


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## jamesd (Feb 17, 2011)

Miss Bee said:


> I am attracted to bad boys. One stole my first kiss this past weekend, and he didn't go easy on me. We ended up kissing a lot, though nothing more because I had boundaries. However, I should note that though I did end up hooking up with a friend who is a bad boy whom I am attracted to for his fearless approach to life, I would never date him. It was a nice experience, but not again I hope. I am still attracted to him and it is worrisome. However, innocence is what I want in a relationship. I think innocence is the most beautiful attribute and I desire security.


There you have it. Always what I suspected. If you want to just hook up with girls you have to behave a certain way. If you want to be treated like an emotional tampon you have behave another way. I see it all the time.


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## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

Sphere said:


> Only in youth, women grow out of that pretty fast and realise what a real man is by the age of 25+. It's also around the time most guys grow a set of balls and become men so it's win-win.
> 
> That's when ****s , bad boys , players and good looking drama queens hit a brick wall and either get there **** together or end up lonely and bitter.


Agree :yes And I couldn't put it better myself. We hear this again and again here that chicks only like jerks and bad boys and not nice guys simply because a lot of us here are in the age 16 - 25. So yeah guys, doesn't really work once you get older as women (with experience!) begin to wake up and become aware of what's good for them. High school/uni age that sort of jerk/nice guy **** goes on (but not as common as we are led to believe). Even guys wake up and realize just because a chick looks hot, doesn't mean she's gonna be a good partner.


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## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

Bad Boy: Yo *****, I'm gonna mkae u my *****!
American Blonde Cheerleader: O.M.G... u are the man of my dreams!
Bad Boy: Well then c'mon *****, let's go back and you can smoke some bone!"

Nice Guy: Hello there, my name is Incognito, can I buy u a drink?
American Blonde Cheerleader: WTF... where did U come from?
Nice Guy: Oh, I'm from the upstate NewYork.
American Blonde Cheerleader: Well, how about you turn around and go back there.


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## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

falling down said:


> -Must have well paying career/job
> -Must have wonderful lifestyle
> -Must make XXXXXX number of dollars per year
> -Must have goals, ambition, passion, intelligence
> ...


Quite a list. Some women are very, very picky and must have a man who is essentially one of life's biggest winners. But I highly doubt she'll find a man like this, though they are out there. I see a lot of the things on there have a lot to do with MONEY, which unfortunately not many of us have much of.


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## mistyeyes (Oct 27, 2011)

falling down said:


> -Must have well paying career/job
> -Must have wonderful lifestyle
> -Must make XXXXXX number of dollars per year
> -Must have goals, ambition, passion, intelligence
> ...


My list is shorter:

- intelligence
- earns his own way through life and knows how to handle his money so that he isn't always broke
- doesn't hate women


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## Miss Bee (Oct 15, 2011)

falling down said:


> How many men do you know that have a shopping list like a lot of women do when it comes to potential relationships with women that include things like:
> 
> -Must have well paying career/job
> -Must have wonderful lifestyle
> ...


I think that it is reasonable to want man on similar standing as myself. I want a guy with an education, above average intelligence and a passion for music. I prefer an optimistic personality, admire fearlessness, and need him to be attractive to me. I don't think women are as picky as you think. We just like what we like. I'll tell you right now, the guy I rather like right now may not complete college and certainly not with a good job guaranteed. He isn't as smart as me and his passion for music is not for classical like my own. However, I still like him. The list means nothing, ultimately.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

People like what they like. It is shallow. But humans, like any other animal, are shallow. I have especially noticed this when you go out of isolation and try interacting with the world. For eg. Due to being largely socially isolated in the past say 8 years (for most of that time, I have either went to school or worked but I haven't been "hanging out" much with people), I have had a lot of difficulty with relating to people and trying to be that fun person to hang around with. People generally don't have the patience for that. And from my experience, my friends/acquaintances (aside from one, my ex) never contact me without me contacting me them first. Or they never invite me anywhere. I have to do the inviting and often times the planning. And they never include me within their own social circles.

When you live that kind of reality, it makes you not want to like people or even care about people. And you will inevitably develop a negative view of people. I'm not even talking about dating. Just human social relationships in general. I have been isolated and socially rejected for so long that I'm at a point where I find myself disinterested in people and with little desire to want to "hang out". I used to enjoy being social and hanging out with people. So I'm trying to get back into that. But the more I try and fail, the more I start to really detest people and lose interest in them.


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## azure5 (Dec 11, 2011)

*hmm.*

I find myself wanting a boy with this sort of image.
I'm still figuring out what my standards are, but this "bad boy" thing is definately my weakness.


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## falling down (Oct 17, 2011)

jimity said:


> Quite a list. Some women are very, very picky and must have a man who is essentially one of life's biggest winners. But I highly doubt she'll find a man like this, though they are out there. I see a lot of the things on there have a lot to do with MONEY, which unfortunately not many of us have much of.





mistyeyes said:


> My list is shorter:
> 
> - intelligence
> - earns his own way through life and knows how to handle his money so that he isn't always broke
> - doesn't hate women





Miss Bee said:


> I think that it is reasonable to want man on similar standing as myself. I want a guy with an education, above average intelligence and a passion for music. I prefer an optimistic personality, admire fearlessness, and need him to be attractive to me. I don't think women are as picky as you think. We just like what we like. I'll tell you right now, the guy I rather like right now may not complete college and certainly not with a good job guaranteed. He isn't as smart as me and his passion for music is not for classical like my own. However, I still like him. The list means nothing, ultimately.


I don't see how love has anything to do with anything on anyone's list, what's wrong with just being a good person and decent human being and loving them?


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## Tugwahquah (Apr 13, 2011)

I was thinking of putting all my fears aside tonight, dressing up and head out to the casino. Im tired of being a good girl. This is boring. Im gonna find me a man and turn him into my bad boy.

EDIT: Not! :lol


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

One fact is that bad boys are rejected many more times than nice guys. Another one is that they cheat and get cheated on many more times than nice guys.


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## StayingMotivated (Sep 5, 2011)

not all women do. I don't like "bad boys" no thanks


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## gaz (Jun 27, 2008)

I am bitter because i am convinced that being a ''nice guy'' is not something women go for. At times i have thought of being nasty just to see how people react
to me.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

gaz said:


> At times i have thought of being nasty just to see how people react
> to me.


I am often nasty. It works for me. People treat me way better now than they did when I was "nice" (which was like, more than a decade ago).


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

This is my list.

- I'd have to be attracted to her (doesn't have to be a 10. There just has to be that attraction. A cute 7 will do)
- Nice, sweet and affectionate
- Sexually liberated (doesn't mean she has to be experienced or a nympho or anything like that. But open and willing to explore. Sex has to be a very important experience to her, a spiritual experience even). 
- Non-judgmental/understanding
- Someone I enjoy talking to and spending time with. Someone that I can share laughs with,
- Doesn't take life too seriously. She doesn't feel like she needs to meet certain milestones by a certain age and doesn't feel the need to live for other people (impressing friends and family). She just wants to enjoy life and meet a guy that makes her happy. Chances are she probably doesn't want kids. But I'm willing to date someone who wants kids or has kids.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

heroin said:


> I am often nasty. It works for me. People treat me way better now than they did when I was "nice" (which was like, more than a decade ago).


This is true for myself also.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I don't like being nasty. I always feel terrible when I am.

So that's out. I probably will just watch porn forever, and die a virgin.


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## Miss Bee (Oct 15, 2011)

heroin said:


> I am often nasty. It works for me. People treat me way better now than they did when I was "nice" (which was like, more than a decade ago).


When you say nasty, do you mean that you approach others more sarcastically? I have a friend who only took an interest in boys who were sarcastic to the point that it would make her question herself because they could be quite demeaning even though joking. She'd return that behavior along with other flirtations and they'd end up continuously hurting each others pride. I've never been into that.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Miss Bee said:


> When you say nasty, do you mean that you approach others more sarcastically?


Something like that. Although I don't do sarcasm very much. More like putting others down, not empathizing often, being confrontational, moody, cynical, sometimes rude. Basically, being rather unaccommodating.

But there is a fine line between generally nasty and total f*cking a*shole. I only cross that line in very rare circumstances.


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## VivaEmptinessRoses (Mar 31, 2010)

I dont like bad boys much. I just like guys who like me.


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## ainsleigh (Dec 6, 2011)

I don't think women want to be with "bad boys" so much as they just don't realise how wonderful it is to be with someone who genuinely loves you and treats you well. I think it is also quite rare to find that so a lot of people settle. It's not just women but also men.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Women generally speaking, don't love a man. They love how the man makes them feel. Nothing else matter. Ever.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

TPower said:


> Women generally speaking, don't love a man. They love how the man makes them feel. Nothing else matter. Ever.


I don't believe this. I think women are capable of love. That is ridiculous.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> I don't believe this. I think women are capable of love. That is ridiculous.


They are.

But.. you know, all that PUA stuff that actually works to get girls? Well, it's the perfect example to demonstrate that you'll get a woman to sleep with you by making her feel special.

If your girlfriend wakes up tomorrow morning and decides that she doesn't love you anymore, for no apparent reason, it's because you don't make her feel special anymore. That wasn't love from the start from her POV.

You love a person for who she is. And being nicer and more caring towards her isn't supposed to make her run away (happened to me), UNLESS she only fell for you for making her feel special.

That's why women get in relationships with men they have nothing in common with, or who treat them badly. Your sense of humor, intelligence, kindness means sweet ****all when it comes to seduction.

Guys that are friend-zoned without being ugly beasts do simply not make those girls feel special, even if they are nice and have a lot in common with them.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

TPower said:


> They are.
> 
> But.. you know, all that PUA stuff that actually works to get girls? Well, it's the perfect example to demonstrate that you'll get a woman to sleep with you by making her feel special.
> 
> ...


But plenty of guys get into relationships and get married without using PU tricks.

The biggest mistake is trying to understand all women as a whole. Because they're all different. What will work with one girl, will not work with another.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

I've read somewhere, I can't recall where, that women of 22 have an active sex life on a 2-1 ratio compared to men. So for example, if 1000 women of 22 had an active sex life, only 500 guys of the same age would be sexually active. 

So in conclusion, women mostly go for the same group of guys.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

WintersTale said:


> But plenty of guys get into relationships and get married without using PU tricks.


Then they wake up one day and find themselves up sh*t creek a.k.a. divorce court. More than 50% of them in America actually, i.e. odds worse than a coin toss. If you knew your business or any undertaking had a less than random chance of succeeding, and you were guaranteed a penalty on failure equal to half of what you've slaved all your life for, would you dare to undertake such an endeavour?

Frankly, I'm surprised that men in the US and other Western countries still get married. The only explanation for that is either "love makes you blind (as well as stupid)" or that most men are masochists.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Or maybe some men actually want to get married?

I want to get married someday. Not every marriage results in a divorce.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

WintersTale said:


> Not every marriage results in a divorce.


Just a majority of them.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

heroin said:


> Just a majority of them.


I have yet to find a real life example in my life that mirrors this experience.


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## Daylight (Jun 20, 2009)

Women date bad guys to make their daddy mad.


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## Faith012 (Dec 21, 2011)

maybe some girls just like to date bad boys but i say it has to be 50/50 not too much good or bad


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

I dont think all girls want a bad boy, but alot do...due to the guys behavior, lifestyle, ect... Its more common with younger women(aka girls). They like the drama that surrounds and the aura of being with a rebel...or badass. Its an image these girls are in love with. Also, they like to have a project they can make into their own. They dont want a man who isnt broken(has his **** together)...what fun is that? They want someone who needs fixing up(aka, bad boy). Let them have their fun though. When they grow up, they will likely change their idea of what type of man to look for. That is when it will pay off to be the nice, caring, sensitive, and secure man.

Now, women OTOH are different. Theyve been through life and know what works and what doesnt. Theyve matured and learned from their past relationships(probally with badboys no doubt lol). They will seek out the man I mentioned above...the nice, caring, sensitive, and secure man, because theyve already went through that phase. Now that theyre older, they want stability...and they know that a bad boy is a very unlikely place to find that permanent ground. 

Nice guys....dont throw in the towel just yet. Your time will come. In the mean time, start looking at older women. :yes


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

by "bad" you mean they have mold on them? past their "sell by" date? well, that depends on how much they're marked down. great savings can be had there.


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

^^^Its an older woman. Lets get her! Or...I will. 

Eww, you want moldy guys? Hmmm, have you tried eBay?


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

that would be more than I want to pay, pal.


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

leonardess said:


> that would be more than I want to pay, pal.


Paypal? Yes, most sellers will accept that.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

nothing gets by you jsgt.


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

lol, I try not to let 'em.
btw, that was a perfect set up and I thought you did it on purpose.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

jsgt said:


> I dont think all girls want a bad boy, but alot do...due to the guys behavior, lifestyle, ect... Its more common with younger women(aka girls). They like the drama that surrounds and the aura of being with a rebel...or badass. Its an image these girls are in love with. Also, they like to have a project they can make into their own. They dont want a man who isnt broken(has his **** together)...what fun is that? They want someone who needs fixing up(aka, bad boy). Let them have their fun though. When they grow up, they will likely change their idea of what type of man to look for. That is when it will pay off to be the nice, caring, sensitive, and secure man.
> 
> *Now, women OTOH are different. Theyve been through life and know what works and what doesnt. Theyve matured and learned from their past relationships(probally with badboys no doubt lol). They will seek out the man I mentioned above...the nice, caring, sensitive, and secure man, because theyve already went through that phase. Now that theyre older, they want stability...and they know that a bad boy is a very unlikely place to find that permanent ground. *
> 
> *Nice guys....dont throw in the towel just yet. Your time will come. In the mean time, start looking at older women.* :yes


Dunno. Little to some experience is fine, but I'd rather not have someone who is totally used up before they start settling down. It would be much better to have a woman who's never been through that badboy phase.


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

BobtheSaint said:


> Dunno. Little to some experience is fine, but I'd rather not have someone who is totally used up before they start settling down. It would be much better to have a woman who's never been through that badboy phase.


I agree with you, but how many older women have never been with a badboy? Id guess that this number would be pretty low. Also, by "used up" do you mean emotionally scared from her past relationships? If so, then Id agree too...I wouldnt want someone whos mental block prevents her from loving me.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

jsgt said:


> I agree with you, but how many older women have never been with a badboy? Id guess that this number would be pretty low. *Also, by "used up" do you mean emotionally scared from her past relationships? *If so, then Id agree too...I wouldnt want someone whos mental block prevents her from loving me.


Not necessarily. By "used up" I meant, having so many relationships/sexual partners that she has no little to no movitation for committing to one guy. Yes, I would like someone that's not hung up on her past as well.


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

BobtheSaint said:


> Not necessarily. By "used up" I meant, having so many relationships/sexual partners that she has no little to no movitation for committing to one guy. Yes, I would like someone that's not hung up her past as well.


Ah, I see. Hopefully, one could find a woman who learns from her mistakes rather than repeating them(ie: has an extensive history of failed relationships).


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## gomenne (Oct 3, 2009)

I can say the same about guys, if they are with a girl who doesnt make them feel special of course they will dump her like garbage. We are humans, we are ****ed up by nature.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

gomenne said:


> I can say the same about guys, if they are with a girl who doesnt make them feel special of course they will dump her like garbage. We are humans, we are ****ed up by nature.


True.

If I could meet one girl who made me feel like I was special, then I would be set. Of course, none of them do.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

jsgt said:


> Nice guys....dont throw in the towel just yet. Your time will come. In the mean time, start looking at older women. :yes


Yep. You get to take care of her kids by previous relationships and put up with her emotional baggage about being discarded by guys that in her mind were way more desirable than you.

I can actually see the scores of nice dudes lining up for that deal. They typically have zero self-respect.


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## intelligentsensory (Dec 19, 2011)

the really beautiful females do. by beautiful i mean beautiful face and no brain. which i don't really know the percentage of that but i have a guesstimate.


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

heroin said:


> Yep. You get to take care of her kids by previous relationships and put up with her emotional baggage about being discarded by guys that in her mind were way more desirable than you.
> 
> I can actually see the scores of nice dudes lining up for that deal. They typically have zero self-respect.


Well, you can also not look for those types. Not every woman will have those things you mention. Also, how is that any different from a girl? At what age can you find someone who hasnt been tainted? The young ones maybe...but then you'll have to put up with all her crap while she figures out life. Id rather have one who already knows what she's doing, and think the best place to find someone like that is higher in age(not talking grandma either)...but thats not to say that there arent some younger girls that have matured faster than her peers.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

jsgt said:


> Well, you can also not look for those types. Not every woman will have those things you mention. Also, how is that any different from a girl? At what age can you find someone who hasnt been tainted? The young ones maybe...but then you'll have to put up with all her crap while she figures out life. Id rather have one who already knows what she's doing, and think the best place to find someone like that is higher in age(not talking grandma either)...but thats not to say that there arent some younger girls that have matured faster than her peers.


Eh? I didn't say anything about anyone being "tainted". I'm just saying that providing a crutch to someone who has been irresponsible in their youth is foolish. Since you implied that young women go through this "relationship learning phase" with guys who treat them badly. Anybody who has been through this "maturing phase" is unlikely to be a good match for nice guy chumps.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

heroin said:


> Eh? I didn't say anything about anyone being "tainted". I'm just saying that providing a crutch to someone who has been irresponsible in their youth is foolish. Since you implied that young women go through this "relationship learning phase" with guys who treat them badly. Anybody who has been through this "maturing phase" is unlikely to be a good match for nice guy chumps.


A "nice guy" chump won't last with a woman who has been in that situation. There's nothing wrong with being a nice guy. But being a "nice guy" is a problem. You know, approval junkies (I am one too but I have been trying to distance myself from that and I've noticed progress recently with my SA). These guys are insecure. They need some woman's approval in order to feel good about themselves. Whenever they come across a **** test, they go nuts. They are out of control mentally. There's no internal psychological harmony. I'd say that it's important to not worry so much about getting them to open up or what not. But instead focus on something that you can control: your mental state, your thoughts, etc.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> True.
> 
> If I could meet one girl who made me feel like I was special, then I would be set. Of course, none of them do.


The difference is, most women who would pay attention to you in a romantic way would make you feel special and fall in love.

All the while, gomenne is a woman, therefore, at least a few guys showed interest in her. She has options, so not just any guy will make her feel special and fall in love.


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## Raulz0r (Jun 4, 2011)

heroin said:


> Yep. You get to take care of her kids by previous relationships and put up with her emotional baggage about being discarded by guys that in her mind were way more desirable than you.
> 
> I can actually see the scores of nice dudes lining up for that deal. They typically have zero self-respect.


If you just look for a hook up, and make it clear to her that you don't wanna take care of her kids, then it's ok


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