# love-shy/involuntary celibacy?



## frank83 (Apr 16, 2010)

I recently read about these disorders and I totally fit the bill for one or the other. I'm 26, never had a date or a kiss or held hands or anything with a woman. I used to think it was just because I'm ugly and skinny but I've seen a lot of ugly guys with girlfriends or wives. And I always assumed since other ugly guys got women it was just a matter of time for me. But after reading about the disorder I've lost all hope of eventually finding a special lady. According to what I've read (and it makes total sense in hindsight) the reason we don't get laid, to put it bluntly, is because we're unable to make a move. I have never in my life asked a girl out or anything and don't forsee myself ever doing so. I don't know. It just feels like it's the source of my depression that I've never been with a woman and it's even more depressing to find out that I probably never will be. I'm absolutely terrified of being that old guy that everyone know never even had a girlfriend. At least my friends are nice enough to not mention it.


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## nemesis1 (Dec 21, 2009)

I feel your pain.


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## Olivia (Nov 15, 2009)

I remember one of the first things I told my therapist was "I will never get married and I will never have children." He asked me how I knew this. I said I just knew. I couldn't explain it, I just knew it. Almost 4 years later it still rings true. I know these things will never happen for me. I'm not terribly unattractive, but I'm overweight. And it's funny, but I've discovered that I keep myself that way in order to have an excuse to avoid relationships with men. If I'm fat, I'm safe....no guy will give me another look. Once, when I lost a lot of weight I found myself looking at dating sites, just the thought of being in a relationship scared me........I gained the weight back very soon after. I guess maybe it's harder on men because a lot of your (trying to think of the correct term) but...a lot of yourself is defined by your sexuality, I guess, if that's the correct word to use. Women, imo, less so. It doesn't bother me as much, but sometimes it does.


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## abracadabra (Dec 5, 2009)

You have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone in order to go on dates and open up to other people. It's something that takes a lot of effort and it can be emotionally taxing for most people. If you work on your confidence, taking the risk of asking a woman out might not be so terrifying. But you don't even have to jump ahead and think about that. Maybe a goal should just be having a conversation with a woman you find attractive. There's no question you will be awkward initially, but you have to be willing to endure it in order to eventually be successful.

You definitely shouldn't define yourself in terms of virginity, as though it's stamped on your forehead. I doubt that's the source of your depression. I think you need to evaluate why you have low self-esteem and what you can do to improve it. Because even if you were somehow able to have sex today, you wouldn't suddenly feel good about yourself. Maybe there would be some kind of temporary satisfaction in knowing that you're not "strange" anymore for being inexperienced, but that would go away when you found another reason to feel inferior.

Lastly, a man is not a man just because he's sexually active. It says nothing about his intelligence, creativity, empathy, etc. Consider why you have value and when you learn not to take it for granted, you'll feel confident enough to get what you want.


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## DeadRider (Jun 26, 2010)

frank83 said:


> I recently read about these disorders and I totally fit the bill for one or the other. I'm 26, never had a date or a kiss or held hands or anything with a woman. I used to think it was just because I'm ugly and skinny but I've seen a lot of ugly guys with girlfriends or wives. And I always assumed since other ugly guys got women it was just a matter of time for me. But after reading about the disorder I've lost all hope of eventually finding a special lady. According to what I've read (and it makes total sense in hindsight) the reason we don't get laid, to put it bluntly, is because we're unable to make a move. I have never in my life asked a girl out or anything and don't forsee myself ever doing so. I don't know. It just feels like it's the source of my depression that I've never been with a woman and it's even more depressing to find out that I probably never will be. I'm absolutely terrified of being that old guy that everyone know never even had a girlfriend. At least my friends are nice enough to not mention it.


I'm exactly the same Frank. Although for me it's not really about getting laid, it's about never having a girlfriend, an intimate relationship, or for that matter not really having any friends. I have absolutely no social life and what guts me more than anything is my family, and what I'll call associates, must see this and think I'm a complete recluse.

abracadabra, is of course right. If you were just to approach a woman you like and talk with them it would be a huge milestone and hopefully that experience would build confidence. If she thinks you're strange, so what, you'll never see her again. No big deal. Of course this is easier said than done, and for me the fear is that the memory of the rejection would stay with me and I'd be worse than I am now. And considering I have zero social life, the opportunity to meet anyone is non-existent. Again, I know, I need to get out there to meet people, it's just really tough. Sigh.


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## gaz (Jun 27, 2008)

I couldn't care less about being a virgin the worst thing is the feeling of having ''never been loved''.....You begin to question yourself as a person...I mean am i desirable to women? Am i loveable?

The same goes to having no friends either, the self doubt is always on my mind that i am unwanted.


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## Chri588 (Jun 26, 2010)

Hi, I too have never asked a girl out and would always think that any girl would be better off with someone else. But i'm currently in a relationship and have been for 4 and a half years. It was and still is a total shock, just when I thought I would be alone for good and was ready to give up, she came along.

I guess what i'm trying to say is never give up hope. It WILL happen. It could be tomorrow, next week, next month or even next year, but the fact is it is going to happen. I think i'm ugly, i'm short, very skinny, I have dark hair but my facial hair is GINGER. WTF! And having SA for me means that I can't get a job. I'm every womans idea of the worst possible catch...and yet here I am. Just gotta give it some time, it will happen.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*hmm*

" I'm 26, never had a date or a kiss or held hands or anything with a woman. I used to think it was just because I'm ugly and skinny but I've seen a lot of ugly guys with girlfriends or wives. And I always assumed since other ugly guys got women it was just a matter of time for me. But after reading about the disorder I've lost all hope of eventually finding a special lady. "

So, you assumed that you're "ugly" as if it is some sort of static and then decided that your being "skinny" was also a bad thing and then decided that because of those assumptions you were somehow unattractive. Then you decided that other guys were "ugly" but these guys were in relationships or dating. You then read about a possible disorder (which is not universally recognised as of yet) and quite possibly cold read yourself into it and then lost your hope?

"I couldn't care less about being a virgin the worst thing is the feeling of having ''never been loved''.....You begin to question yourself as a person...I mean am i desirable to women? Am i loveable?"

How do you know you've "never been loved". And yes, I know, you begin to question yourself about being loveable and desirable to women. And then there's the self doubt. Which, ironically, you're in no doubt about. Which means the self doubting isn't a constant and is moving and fluid and can be blown wide open through the healing process.

Light the internal beacon. Shift the validation from external to internal. Doing that is a powerful thing and a step towards self love and one of the most powerful tools for dating and attraction that there is.


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## drealm (Jul 7, 2009)

Why you're at it why don't you research "true forced loneliness".

frank, why do you think it's your fault? You can't take responsibility for women rejecting you, or for women having higher standards than you can't provide. As soon as you realize the western dating scene is the equivalent of winning the lottery, you'll feel much better.


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## Darren07 (Sep 17, 2009)

Yeah me too, I fit the bill for love-shyness as well..according to Dr. Gilmartin.

And joinmartin, the disorder will never be universally recognized because this only affects I think 3% of the male population. You'll never see this in the DSM or any other books because "professionals" chalk it up to simple shyness and prescribe empty solutions like "oh just approach her and tell her how you feel, stop being a wimp". The fact of the matter is, it's a debilitating disorder that you would never understand unless you were going through it. 

It's even more than just paralyzing anxiety at the mere thought of engaging with a woman in a non-platonic way; its combined with the fact that you were not socialized properly growing up to even know how to interact with them sexually/romantically.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Darren07 said:


> the fact that you were not socialized properly growing up to even know how to interact with them sexually/romantically.


Yes. I've never had or did anything with a girl in my life and let me tell you it can make you feel very, very depressed. I should know, because it affects me very very strongly. Growing up I was never friends with girls or knowing them deep enough to understand them enough. I think this is partly the reason why I probably haven't gotten my time yet. But anyway my social life was never booming either. I have no social life at all now. Being a virgin depresses me as well but the fact that I haven't experienced some kind of love with a girl at this point in time is just too dissapointing. When you're surrounded by people your age every day in relationships and you tell yourself why can't that be me? Why can't I have that? I never go through a single day of living without thinking about this stuff. It lingers in my mind every day I'm alive. Yeah I am a nice guy. It's in my soul. My hearts pure niceness and gushing with passion. I don't really see how I could turn into some evil monster just to get a girlfriend. I would say I am pretty attractive, but having social anxiety and no friends and a somewhat low status just hurts chances. Is it a crime because I want a girlfriend so badly? Only my heart talking there. But I don't have anybody to feel loved with anyway. You start to question yourself. You start to question what your reason could be for even being alive (even moreso if you are older) if you can't experience love with a person of the opposite sex. Having 0 experience with the opposite sex and living your life alone with nobody by your side (parents don't count) is not the way anybody should have to live. Wanting a relationship is a natural desire that can't be forgotten or ignored. Last summer I went to a carnival and sat on a table with my head in my arms looking at the grass for hours. Watching all young people taking pictures and kissing. Went to the beach several times all by myself and sat near the water for hours in the beating hot sun looking at the sand. With an emotionless face. An empty face. An empty heart. That's what it my heart feels like. Empty. Dead. Imagine being at a party or something and everyone is enjoying themselves with their partners and they all walk away and you're left behind by yourself in silence. That's what would happen to me. Every night I talk to myself silently. Sean, why are you like this. Why aren't you like one of the normal guys your age who has or has had a girlfriend of some kind. What's blocking your chances. Is it my karma. Is god testing me. I manage to keep myself optimistic about "when my time will come" but honestly I don't know. I just don't know what will happen. The door of love of locked for me. The universe won't bring a girl to me. People in these situations have to play their cards right and persue or it will be a self-fufilling prophecy. That is why I have to do what every other guy in this situation will have to do. And that is to go on a journey and find someone. But before you do you have to make sure you are accepted by society. You need to get rid of your SA or get it under control and you need to stabalize your life in all areas. I don't know if I could ever match societies perfect guy. I might be able to come close, but that is it. I am afraid to date. At least right now. I have no friends at all (both genders) and this will not look good to a potential someone, I don't think. Maybe that's just a foolish assumption I have because of what other people have while in a relationship. This goes for all other areas of life as well. All I got to my advantage is time. Everything else I have to put effort into for progress and good outcomes and results. Having no experience makes you feel alienated. You play catch up while everyone else is on the next level already. The loneliness takes its toll on you after a while. I like to think there is a girl out there somewhere that's going to be my first. I want to know who she is. But it's all unclear to me. Never being approached by a girl or going on a date or having a relationship or sex before is very hard to live with. Maybe everyone thinks different but that's just how I see it. Not knowing what will happen to us at any time is just another one of the unsolved mysteries of life itself. The thought of living life alone or staying single forever without even a single chance at love can scare you. It's terrifying. You don't need to have been in a relationship before to know this stuff. Why hasn't my time come yet? sigh... I...I just don't know. I don't know for the life of me! I've looked lots of places to see if I could ever find a story of a person who commited suicide because they never had a relationship in their life or were just fed up with being alone for so long (decades, centuries)... What if you killed yourself. Will you go to heaven with the angels by your side or go to pitch black darkness forever. Sorry if this sounds confusing to anyone.

There is supposed to be about 6 billion people on this earth. One of them, someway, somehow, wherever they are, has to be the one you want that wants you. You have to find them though. Find them. Do they exist? The million dollar question every person who hasn't had a relationship before in their lives wonders about, is, "when will my time come?" This is what we all want to know.

I hope I find that answer someday.


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## danberado (Apr 22, 2010)

Well this combo seems to be the most prevalent complaint on this board. The gulf generated by being such an introvert but longing for the closest kinds of connections.

The only solution I've really come to so far is that it is simply to harsh to think about. Best to focus on other SA related goals first until _maybe_ sometime in the future I might be in a position where finding a significant other seems less unrealistic.


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## eligray (Jun 30, 2010)

Stranger25, I just want to tell you that even though I don't know you, I can sympathize with your situation. I think that it's common to feel inadequate as a man as well; I've only had one date in my life, and even then I was scared as **** the whole date. And the only reason that I even had the "courage" to ask her was because our mutual friends had been encouraging me for weeks to ask AND they reassured me that she liked me. And even then I was inexplicably terrified as I asked her to the movies. End of story is that I behaved like a zombie my whole date because I was so ****ing nervous.

The moral of the story is that it's easy to think "I haven't gotten a date and I never will because I'm probably unattractive and definitely too weird to date", when in reality the biggest problem is that negative thought. It is definitely possibly that your intense self-consciousness is making you feel unworthy of a date, and the feelings of worthlessness in turn lead you to lose your natural personality and become an overly self-conscious zombie. I believe that this is what always happened to me in the past. However, I feel like I would be able to act like myself on a date now then I did then, simply because I now realize that the biggest barrier isn't that you're unattractive, but rather that you crush your own confidence by trying to focus on your own imperfections which a girl could see.

My advice is to learn to see that your self-perception is probably more negative than how other people actually perceive you.

repeat after me 
*the biggest barrier isn't that you're unattractive, but rather that you crush your own confidence by focusing on your own imperfections which a girl could see.*

And please please please, if you question the value of living life, call 1-800-273-8255


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## Nathan18 (Sep 15, 2009)

Chri588 said:


> Hi, I too have never asked a girl out and would always think that any girl would be better off with someone else. But i'm currently in a relationship and have been for 4 and a half years. It was and still is a total shock, just when I thought I would be alone for good and was ready to give up, she came along.
> 
> I guess what i'm trying to say is never give up hope. It WILL happen. It could be tomorrow, next week, next month or even next year, but the fact is it is going to happen. I think i'm ugly, i'm short, very skinny, I have dark hair but my facial hair is GINGER. WTF! And having SA for me means that I can't get a job. I'm every womans idea of the worst possible catch...and yet here I am. Just gotta give it some time, it will happen.


Did she end up asking you out, then? How did it happen for you?


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## jlotz123 (Dec 11, 2009)

About 2 weeks ago I went to the Casino with my family for the Casino Buffet

One of the ID checkers asked for my ID, I told her i'm 19, and she told me not to go anywhere else but the buffet.

So my mom decides to ask the woman how old I look. She said around 13 or 14. If what she says is true, and if others think i'm that age, then I have such a long ways to go in my life. My dad is the same exact way, he's 48 and could pass for a 38 year old easily. 

I have such a long road ahead of me, since I look like a kid still, I shouldn't even worry about a relationship.... but I do worry, daily.


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## NikiW (Jun 23, 2010)

frank83 said:


> I recently read about these disorders and I totally fit the bill for one or the other. I'm 26, never had a date or a kiss or held hands or anything with a woman. I used to think it was just because I'm ugly and skinny but I've seen a lot of ugly guys with girlfriends or wives. And I always assumed since other ugly guys got women it was just a matter of time for me. But after reading about the disorder I've lost all hope of eventually finding a special lady. According to what I've read (and it makes total sense in hindsight) the reason we don't get laid, to put it bluntly, is because we're unable to make a move. I have never in my life asked a girl out or anything and don't forsee myself ever doing so. I don't know. It just feels like it's the source of my depression that I've never been with a woman and it's even more depressing to find out that I probably never will be. I'm absolutely terrified of being that old guy that everyone know never even had a girlfriend. At least my friends are nice enough to not mention it.


If it makes you feel better I'm in a similar boat. I'm 21 and have never experienced any of it either. Too bad we're not in the "same boat," we could hold hands and say we actually did it. Although my hands would probably be sweaty and gross, so it prob wouldn't be good.
The good thing is that my one and only best friend is just like me (she's my cousin so maybe there's some genetics playing a role) so she can't make fun of me for never knowing what love is.


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## Williams (May 29, 2010)

Chri588 said:


> Hi, I too have never asked a girl out and would always think that any girl would be better off with someone else. But i'm currently in a relationship and have been for 4 and a half years. It was and still is a total shock, just when I thought I would be alone for good and was ready to give up, she came along.
> 
> I guess what i'm trying to say is never give up hope. It WILL happen. It could be tomorrow, next week, next month or even next year, but the fact is it is going to happen. I think i'm ugly, i'm short, very skinny, I have dark hair but my facial hair is GINGER. WTF! And having SA for me means that I can't get a job. I'm every womans idea of the worst possible catch...and yet here I am. Just gotta give it some time, it will happen.


You're 21 dude. You gave up in despair at 18?


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## Jayne311 (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm much the same way as other people here. I can't picture myself in a relationship. At least, not for a very, very long time. I feel about 12 years old. Picturing myself in a romantic situation is impossible. I can picture a different version of me who looks her own age and who is more confident and has her life better together and has no mental issues, but I can't picture me. I would like to think that I can go on a date and hold hands, but I really do believe I would literally not be able to move in that situation, or I would just start crying or something because being in that world is about as familiar and natural as going to an alien planet and understanding the language.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*hmm*

My concern was that the original poster had talked about reading about the symptoms of Love Shyness and decided they were a perfect fit for the disorder. Given that the disorder doesn't yet stand in a lot of professional environments and also given that self diagnosis is a dangerous thing, I questioned. The person may well have love shyness but they need to check things out with a qualified professional to be sure.

Dr Gilmartin's stuff is more than open to challenge and interpretation and I really think that people should talk to a qualified professional before they make the assumption that they are suffering from "love shyness". Just because you think you fit the bill does not mean you have it.

"And joinmartin, the disorder will never be universally recognized because this only affects I think 3% of the male population. You'll never see this in the DSM or any other books because "professionals" chalk it up to simple shyness and prescribe empty solutions like "oh just approach her and tell her how you feel, stop being a wimp".

Well, first of all, any professional who said "stop being a wimp" should and or would be struck off. That's your interpretation and assumption about what professionals say. And they don't all prescribe empty solutions either. A love shy male can approach and talk to someone in the sense that they have legs and they have a voice. What's preventing them is not lack of ability. It's fear.

"The fact of the matter is, it's a debilitating disorder that you would never understand unless you were going through it. "

Well, yes and no. Nobody can walk a mile in another person's shoes and understand fully but people can understand things without going through them.

"It's even more than just paralyzing anxiety at the mere thought of engaging with a woman in a non-platonic way; its combined with the fact that you were not socialized properly growing up to even know how to interact with them sexually/romantically."

So, if you develop "love shyness" then that automatically means you were not taught how to properly and correctly interact with a woman sexually or romantically? As if there's some correct way to do so and what exactly is being "socialised properly"?

Again, not a lack of ability automatically but a fear.

And given that I've just read Gilmartin talking about "love shy men's obsession with women of high natural beauty", personally, boy is some of this open to challenge and interpretation. Of high natural beauty? Would be a wonderful experiment to challenge Gilmartin to go out and find some of these women of "high natural beauty" and get everyone to accept that they have "high natural beauty".

And Gilmartin also makes references in his work on love shyness to astrology, auras, reincarnation, past life regression...doesn't automatically dismiss the work but I find it interesting that people on here would accept "love shyness" as a fact but a lot of people on here would not accept discussions based on past life regression, auras etc.

And then there's the stuff about love shy males and musical preferences. Apparently, according to Gilmartin's research: non love shy males buy rock albums and only rock albums.

Seriously? I'm not a qualified professional. But get this checked out if you think you might have this. It's more than open for challenge and interpretation and you need to check your mental health with a qualified professional and or your doctor and not just take it as read that you have love shyness.


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## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

drealm said:


> frank, why do you think it's your fault? You can't take responsibility for women rejecting you, or for women having higher standards than you can't provide.


So, it's not Frank's fault....it's the fault of women? I'm a women...it's my fault?

Blaming your problems on other people and making yourself a helpless victim will deprive you of hope and happiness. Frank83: take control of your own life and your own actions and be constructive- it's the only way you will ever see improvement in your life.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Love-shyness is very real. I understand I am still young but it's exactly how guys like me feel. Step into my soul for a minute and see how it is.


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## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

drealm said:


> *You are the exact reason why men kill themselves.*


Thanks.

And no, I'm not saying we have complete control over our lives- I'm saying take responsibility for your own actions, for the things that you can do.

Playing the victim doesn't get you anywhere in life and it won't make you happier.


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## drealm (Jul 7, 2009)

I was being harsh.

I apologize. Disregard my above angry posts. I don't have anything against you, I've just grown to be a very rabid dog willing to bite anyone.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

****Thread Lock Warning****
Cool off!


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