# Anyone who has success with NLP?



## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

I listened to some NLP tapes from NLP experts. I think that NLP sounds interesting but somehow this whole stuff where you're asked to imagine yourself in situations where you were either depressed or where you felt "totally good" and then you're asked to remember how you breathed in this situation and what sounds you heard and all that doesn't work for me.
I cannot remember how I breathed when I felt good. Is this just me?
I'd really like this stuff to work but if I cannot live through those past situations then what does this mean? 
I also cannot do other stuff like imagining negative emotions and then making them go into my fist or stuff like that. I wonder if other people can do such things.


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## forex (Dec 29, 2010)

check this out !!
download this book , its shows in pictures how to do that .

http://www.4shared.com/document/k3Yb9p6-/The_New_Psycho-Cybernetics.htm


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

Thanks. Is this stuff serious science or is it rather new age?


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

There is no scientific evidence that it works. It has no substance. Do not spend money on it.


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## forex (Dec 29, 2010)

i dont know google "maxwell maltz" that technique everybody is using it , it seems to help. (derren brown , tony robbins etc uses it too)

@Lisa , never bought anything just downloaded all i needed.


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

I read in a psychology mag that NLP hasn't been proven to work and that the promises which are made aren't realistic. I find it also hard to imagine that fears and phobias can be cured within half an hour.
I'd really like this stuff to work but I cannot even remember how I felt in a moment when I felt good. How the hell am I supposed to put this into practice if I cannot even recall those impressions? 
If it was that easy and you could simply live through moments where you felt "totally good" again and again and again then nobody would be sad or have any problems at all because he could just live in his memories all the time.


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## penfold821 (Nov 10, 2011)

Pyschology isn't in any way proven to work, it doesn't most of the time. So it does annoy me when comments are made about NLP having no scientific proof - pyschology may've found some interesting things out, and occasionally helps someone without knowing how. NLP focuses on how someone got over something and therefore teaches others how to do the same. I have personally cured many people's phobias in under an hour. And I'm talking about truely flaming phobias! They're all laughing at them now! The problem with NLP is that lots of people claim they do it but have only learnt a roomy bit and not from someone qualified. 
Read any book by Richard Bandler. He invented it. If after reading a book by him or going on one of his courses you still think its nonsense, then at least you've made a proper judgement of your own rather than just repeating what someone else said. 
To anyone on here who actually wants help with social anxiety, or advice on NLP I would be more than happy to help - if you live in London I will happily meet you and help you. I can help you with the remembering good times / breathing stuff too - tho I have to say that doesn't sound like true NLP, I do suggest getting a Bandler book, I think that will clarify things because you don't need to know how you breathed in a situation, just more what you saw, what you heard, what you felt - to really get back into the good feeling. And none of it should be asking you to relive a bad situation in that much detail. 
Good luck, and please let me know if you'd like some help.


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## UKPhobe (Oct 22, 2008)

penfold821 said:


> *Pyschology isn't in any way proven to work, it doesn't most of the time. So it does annoy me when comments are made about NLP having no scientific proof* - pyschology may've found some interesting things out, and occasionally helps someone without knowing how. NLP focuses on how someone got over something and therefore teaches others how to do the same. I have personally cured many people's phobias in under an hour. And I'm talking about truely flaming phobias! They're all laughing at them now! The problem with NLP is that lots of people claim they do it but have only learnt a roomy bit and not from someone qualified.


Sorry I've got to take issue with this. Psychiatry and psychotherapy (presumably that's what you meant since Psychology in the UK is about research) have most definitely been proven to work and have stood the test of time. I have yet to see any _scientific_ evidence, beyond the usual heavily biased pro NLP propaganda, of NLP's effectiveness and use as a therapy. Plenty of anecdotal evidence of course and lots and lots of self help material written by NLP therapists with financial motivation but NOTHING _scientific_. I can of course vouch for my own experience and have found NLP useful to a degree but that doesn't make it _scientific evidence_. I can also vouch to plenty of other people I know who've made NLP work for them but again that doesn't make it _scientific evidence_. 

I'm getting increasingly annoyed at NLP fanboys putting down conventional therapy while claiming scientific backing for NLP (no offence intended). 

Frankly I'd rather listen to a therapist with 10 years of medical and psychiatric training (even if that includes NLP practitioner courses or not) then rely on someone who's done a few week long courses and suddenly qualifies as a fully trained therapist. 

Personally I'm a fan of NLP, just not a heavily biased fan, although I won't bother retyping my opinions of it but will simply put up a link to my previous comments here, there was another NLP thread in which I included more detailed views but that now seems to have been removed. If it worked for you then excellent, some of it worked for me, but it is not _scientifically proven_ and conventional therapy certainly is. Let's be clear about this!


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## thequietmanuk (Feb 20, 2011)

I've spent years going through Tony Robbins programs and I got no where at all, they simply do not work. They brainwash gullible people thats about the height of it.


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## UKPhobe (Oct 22, 2008)

thequietmanuk said:


> I've spent years going through Tony Robbins programs and I got no where at all, they simply do not work. They brainwash gullible people thats about the height of it.


Speaking from my own experience I did find some of Robbins material useful. You're right though it isn't the miraculous cure it claims to be and Robbins exaggerates its usefulness. 

Unfortunately Robbins is a good example of why mental health professionals are often reluctant to recommend self help material.


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## FabledHero (Jun 13, 2010)

thequietmanuk said:


> I've spent years going through Tony Robbins programs and I got no where at all, they simply do not work. They brainwash gullible people thats about the height of it.


The problem is a lot of people read books and expect them to fix their problems without having to do anything. The way the brain works is through experience. You have to actually change the way you act, the decisions you make. Over time your habits will start to change.

Basically you need to read about effective strategies and also implement them a ton, so your subconscious begins to react differently to situations. Also fear and anxiety is a good indication you have something to fix. Try to figure out the root of the problem and improve that area. I view emotions as helpful tools to show me my weaknesses. A lot of people I think try to hide and dimiss their emotions I know I have, as if they're the enemy, but ideally they are there to help you.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

i truly beleive that nlp is the best thing out there for social anxiety.

what does a social phobic really want. he wants 2 things :

1)a change in state 
2)a change in behaviour 

nobody can change your behaviour for you. you are the one with the free will and you are the one who decides which actions you will take. you either react to a situation or you proact.
its very hard for a social phobic to proact, and not react, in social situation. however, if you change your state then it makes the chance of you proacting a lot more likely and it makes it a lot easier for you not to react

and there is nothing better out there for changing state than nlp. your state (i.e fear, anxiety, happiness, confidence etc....) is caused by your unconious mind. and nlp offers the tools to go to the unconcious and correct the issue there that is causing the negative state. 

a state is caused by the uncocnious mind filtering reality in a certain way that it leaves the person with an internal representation of reality in his concious mind. the internal representation is basically the meaning that the person has given to the event. and the interanl representation consists of images, words, sounds etc....

now to have the best chance of changing a negative state you need 3 things:

1)fix the problem at the unconcious level so that the state doesnt get created in the 1st place. the unconcious is the root of the problem

2)if the state does get created then you need specific thinking tools that you can conciously apply to change the state 

3)state effects physiology and physiology effects state. therefore if the negative state does get created then you need to be able to change your physiology in order to change state 

there is nothing else out there that addresses the 3 keys to changing state other than nlp. the closest thing to it is cognitive behavioural therapy but that only addresse number 2 (conciously changing thinking). it doesnt do any work at the unconcious level nor does it focus on changing physiology either 
and even though it offers tools for changing concious thinking patterns those tools are less supeirior than the thinking tools that nlp offers. cbt will advise you tell yourself a rational statement were as nlp will have you change the images, colours, sounds etc... of your thinking pattern. the latter is far more effective 

*the reason why some people claim that nlp does not work is because they beleive that nlp is suposed to cure them or fix them a bit like magic and that they dont have to do any work. but the only person who can fix you is you. you are the one who has to make the choice to change your behaviour. you are the one who has to repetitively take a specific action and face your fears over and over again until that behaviour becomes a part of you and second nature.

you are the one that has to face your fears. even if you use nlp youve still got to go out there and change your behaviour and step out of your comfort zone and develop new habits .
being in the best possible state makes all of the above a lot easier. and nlp is the best thing for putting you in the best state 

also people need to understand that it takes repetition. you need to apply nlp over and over again. you cant expect to do it once and recive a miracle


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

I listened to various NLP expert MP3s where they tell you to imagine things like imagine how you feel or breathe when you feel "really good" but I cannot even do this. I can't even imagine the stuff they ask you to imagine. Is this just me or what? I'd like this stuff to work but if I cannot even imagine these things then how can it work for me?


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

norad said:


> I listened to various NLP expert MP3s where they tell you to imagine things like imagine how you feel or breathe when you feel "really good" but I cannot even do this. I can't even imagine the stuff they ask you to imagine. Is this just me or what? I'd like this stuff to work but if I cannot even imagine these things then how can it work for me?


everybody can imagine things. what does your front door look like, what colour is it? surely youve just got an image of your front door in your mind.

what would micky mouse look like with a beard? again surely youve just seen micky mouse in your mind.

when people think its usually in pictures sounds and feelings. each one of those things is called a representational system. so youve got the auditory representation system (sound), the visual representational system (visual), and the kinesthetic representational system (feeling)

everyone uses all 3 but most people predominalty use one more than the others. so if you are saying you have difficulty using your visual representational system then you probably are more a kinesthetic person or an auditory person. it doesnt matter how you personally represent things in your mind. some people represent things in pictures, others in sounds. neither is better than the other, it just depends what works for you

you can develop your visual representational system by simply practicing. just keep imagining certain images over and over again, trying to change the colours and things like that. do that every day for about 21 days and you should find it easier to imaging things


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

I can imagine Mickey Mouse but I cannot image or remember how I breathe when I feel "really well" or how I felt when I felt really well. I simply cannot do this. I also cannot make myself feel the feelings which I felt in a certain situation in the past. But this is what you're asked to do. They tell you stuff like remember how you felt in this or that situation and then try to link those feelings with something else. But I don't know how this works. I cannot simply reproduce feelings at own volition.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

norad said:


> I can imagine Mickey Mouse but I cannot image or remember how I breathe when I feel "really well" or how I felt when I felt really well. I simply cannot do this. I also cannot make myself feel the feelings which I felt in a certain situation in the past. But this is what you're asked to do. They tell you stuff like remember how you felt in this or that situation and then try to link those feelings with something else. But I don't know how this works. I cannot simply reproduce feelings at own volition.


if you're having difficulty with the imagery exercises you can still benefit from nlp by using the unconcious programming cds which require no effort from you other than closing your eyes, sitting back and pressing the play button


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

paulyD said:


> if you're having difficulty with the imagery exercises you can still benefit from nlp by using the unconcious programming cds which require no effort from you other than closing your eyes, sitting back and pressing the play button


Do you know any such program titles?

Is this subliminial stuff? I don't really like the thought of being manipulated.
What if I listen to something and then stuff is implemented into me which I don't want?


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## cosmicserpent (Jan 7, 2011)

NLP is the way you represent language in your head. All of the assumptions and labels are interpreted through visuals, sounds, and feelings. Everyone is trapped within these representations. That is why it is very difficult for therapy to be effective. There are only a few therapies that work on re-wiring/re-structuring these things. Reichian therapy is one of them. NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) is spotting the language you use to interpret events, and changing them. It's a basic first step.


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

I have listened to various NLP programs from supposed experts and most of the stuff they told you to do simply wouldn't work for me. Like for example thinking about something negative and then making this feeling go into a part of your body. How the heck is that supposed to work? This sounds pretty stupid to me and not like something you could take serious.
I also tried stuff like the circle of excellence but I cannot even create those feelings which they talk about. For example if they tell you to remember how you felt in a moment when you felt "really good" then I cannot work with this at all. I cannot remember that. I also cannot reproduce this feeling. If it was that simple then everybody could simply save all good feelings and then relive them again and again. Or maybe some people can do this but I can't.


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

These things usually take a lot of practice.

Also, there is no scientific evidence that supports NLP. You should switch to CBT. Lots fo evidence for that. But it also takes a lot of practice. There is no quick solution.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

norad said:


> Do you know any such program titles?
> 
> Is this subliminial stuff? I don't really like the thought of being manipulated.
> What if I listen to something and then stuff is implemented into me which I don't want?


there's many out there. some good some not so good.

i find the paul mckenna stuff excellent. there is also some great cd's created by an ex social anxiety sufferer on www.empoweringsounds.com. very good quality and there are 3 aimed directly at social anxiety sufferers - the shy no more, self conciousness, and stop blushing

the best stuff ive used though is undoubtedly www.thinkrightnow.com. you just sit back and listen to the statements without having to visualize anything yourself. its NOT subliminal, you hear everything. plus they'll send you an email with a list of the statemnts that are on the cd so if theres anything on that list that you dont want going inside your head then you dont have to listen. but theres nothing on there that you wouldnt want to hear cos its all positive stuff thats gonna benefit you . such things like '' i can be myself and still be well liked by others '' etc....


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Lisa said:


> These things usually take a lot of practice.
> 
> Also, there is no scientific evidence that supports NLP. You should switch to CBT. Lots fo evidence for that. But it also takes a lot of practice. There is no quick solution.


i dont know why anyone would choose cbt over nlp.

cbt and nlp both acknowledge that a persons internal representation of an external event is what causes their feelings of anxiety. and cbt and nlp both work by changing a persons internal representation.

however cbt only has one way of changing an internal representation. and that is by conciously applying a new thought inside your mind. nlp does exactly that and more though. 
with nlp you can change your concious thinking , just like cbt, but you can also 1)change your physiology and 2) programme your uncncious mind

theres no harm in using cbt and nlp together. for example you can practice changing your thinking patterns , with cbt, in social situations, as well as programming your unconcious mind with nlp

there is 2 ways to cut the grass. you can use the old method of doing it manually with shears or you can use a lawn mower. both methods have the same goal and get the same result only one is more advanced and gets results a lot quicker. its the same with cbt and nlp


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

paulyD said:


> i dont know why anyone would choose cbt over nlp.
> 
> cbt and nlp both acknowledge that a persons internal representation of an external event is what causes their feelings of anxiety. and cbt and nlp both work by changing a persons internal representation.
> 
> ...


People choose CBT over NLP because there is a lot of scientific evidence for the former and none for the latter. Also, CBT is practised by psychologists and psychiatrists whereas NLP is practiced by people who have no formal education in the field of mental health.


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

@ pauly

So you just listen to positive confessions or statements and this is supposed to change something in the person? Is this scientifically proven that this works? I somehow have a hard time to believe that this works. I mean I also tried stuff like confessing positive stuff but it only dragged me down because at the same time while I confessed it I felt the exact opposite inside. It was like struggling against myself. I think I also read that if depressed people try to confess positive stuff it makes them even more depressed.

Some of the stuff i listened to was from Paul Scheele. He seems to be an expert. But I am sceptical of this whole subliminal stuff. For example I listened to something about communicating with people and you would have 2 different speakers on both ears saying different positive things at the same time so that you couldnt really follow both. I really wonder if this stuff works or how to tell if it does. Is this proven that such things even work?
I'm not against NLP. I'd appreciate everything which works against anxiety (not SA) but so far the stuff I listened to didn't work cause I couldn't even use it.

As for CBT, does this work for any kind of fear?
What does it boil down to? The therapist simply tells you that a fear you have isn't as bad as you think it is?
What would a CBTist say to someone who is afraid of a certain event like a final exam which he feels is a matter of life and death and if he doesn't succeed or function at this event then it's all over? Would he simply try to say that this event isn't that important and try to convince the person that even failing wouldn't mean that life is over? But what if failing simply is not an option? What if it's really is more or less a life or death issue? What if you knew that failing would have such dramatic consequences that life would basically be over or at least not worth living because it would be too miserable? 
As far as I understand it CBT is about showing you distortions but what if there is no distortion? What if the situation really is that serious? 
Being told stuff like _life goes on_ wouldn't help me at all.


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## UKPhobe (Oct 22, 2008)

Lisa said:


> People choose CBT over NLP because there is a lot of scientific evidence for the former and none for the latter. Also, CBT is practised by psychologists and psychiatrists whereas NLP is practiced by people who have no formal education in the field of mental health.


To be fair CBT for a lot of years had no scientific evidence. It's only been in the last 10 years (if I remember rightly) that the psychiatric community have taken it seriously. The main reason NLP has lost so much respect and credibility is because it's been abused by self help guru wannabes who treat it as a miracle cure. 

Besides it's worth pointing out that most self help material isn't scientifically proven, that doesn't automatically mean it's bad. I agree with David here in that there's no harm in using CBT and NLP together, and certainly no harm in trying NLP, if it doesn't work for you then fair enough.

Totally agree with your last comments though, it's far far too easy for someone to "qualify" as a therapist after doing a couple of 1-2 week NLP courses. Regardless of the formal training they have. THAT NEEDS TO STOP!


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Lisa said:


> People choose CBT over NLP because there is a lot of scientific evidence for the former and none for the latter. Also, CBT is practised by psychologists and psychiatrists whereas NLP is practiced by people who have no formal education in the field of mental health.


but is there any difference between cbt and nlp though? nlp is cbt.

cbt is extremely simple. it works by changing your concious thinking pattern. nlp does exactly the same thing.

to change your concious thinking pattern, with cbt, you will be ask to repeat a rational statement to yourself. nlp does exactly the same thing only it will include the rational statement in a strategy i.e you'll picture something in your mind, then use the statement , then maybe get a feeling.

the diference with nlp and cbt is that instead of just changing concious thinking patterns with a rational statement, like in cbt, nlp will will do the same but :

1) offer more ways to do it instead of just a statement (i.e with picture and sounds and feelings instead or in addition to the statment) 
2)use unconcious programming in addition to the concious work that you do

if people are saying that there is no scientific evidence for nlp then what they mean is that there is no scientific evidence for unconcious programming. but if there IS scientific evidence for cbt then that means there IS also scientific evidence for 50% of nlp cos 50% of nlp is the same as cbt

cbt is changing thinking patterns with concious thought. 50% of nlp is changing thinking patterns with concious thought. only nlp will offer you more choices, to change a thinking pattern, other than just a rational statement.

im pretty sure there is some scientific evidence for uncocnious programming anyway. there must have been some sort of tests done. and even if there wasnt it will do no harm to try it


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

norad said:


> @ pauly
> 
> So you just listen to positive confessions or statements and this is supposed to change something in the person? Is this scientifically proven that this works? I somehow have a hard time to believe that this works. I mean I also tried stuff like confessing positive stuff but it only dragged me down because at the same time while I confessed it I felt the exact opposite inside. It was like struggling against myself. I think I also read that if depressed people try to confess positive stuff it makes them even more depressed.
> 
> ...


all i can say is try it and see. these type of things always come with 100% money back guarantee so if your not happy with it and you dont think it works then you've lost nothing in trying

but i can assure you that it DOES work. your best bet is try out the thinkrightnow motivation cd and i guarantee you'll see amzing results very quickly. that will prove to you that is does work

if you try the social anxiety cd you may come to the conclusion that it doesnt work. the reason for this is that social anxiety is a mental disorder were as a lack of motivation isnt. it takes a lot more time and repetition to begin chipping away at social anxiety disorder, and changes may be very subtle at 1st. 
people usually try the social anxiety cd for a week or 2 and then give up and say it doesnt work simply because they arent the life of the party already. however if you persist with the social anxiety cd over a long period of time you will eventually begin to start making a lot of progress

dont expect miracles in a short space of time with the thinkrightnow social anxiety cd but DO expect miracles in a short space of time with the thinkrightnow motivation cd


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

UKPhobe said:


> To be fair CBT for a lot of years had no scientific evidence. It's only been in the last 10 years (if I remember rightly) that the psychiatric community have taken it seriously. The main reason NLP has lost so much respect and credibility is because it's been abused by self help guru wannabes who treat it as a miracle cure.
> 
> Besides it's worth pointing out that most self help material isn't scientifically proven, that doesn't automatically mean it's bad. I agree with David here in that there's no harm in using CBT and NLP together, and certainly no harm in trying NLP, if it doesn't work for you then fair enough.
> 
> Totally agree with your last comments though, it's far far too easy for someone to "qualify" as a therapist after doing a couple of 1-2 week NLP courses. Regardless of the formal training they have. THAT NEEDS TO STOP!


i do think its silly that with nlp a person can be qualified in as little as a week and be free to start treating patients and charging money. were as in cbt you have to train and qualify over a long period of time (sort of like getting a degree in university) and also practice with real patients before becoming certified

that does put a lot of people off nlp and put a lot of doubts in people's minds


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

UKPhobe said:


> To be fair CBT for a lot of years had no scientific evidence. It's only been in the last 10 years (if I remember rightly) that the psychiatric community have taken it seriously. The main reason NLP has lost so much respect and credibility is because it's been abused by self help guru wannabes who treat it as a miracle cure.
> 
> Besides it's worth pointing out that most self help material isn't scientifically proven, that doesn't automatically mean it's bad. I agree with David here in that there's no harm in using CBT and NLP together, and certainly no harm in trying NLP, if it doesn't work for you then fair enough.
> 
> Totally agree with your last comments though, it's far far too easy for someone to "qualify" as a therapist after doing a couple of 1-2 week NLP courses. Regardless of the formal training they have. THAT NEEDS TO STOP!


if you look at people like tony robbins, paul mckenna and even derren brown these guys are experts at applying nlp. these guys have every right to say ''i'm certified in nlp''.

the problem is joe bloggs can go on a course for a week or 2 and claim to be certified in nlp. and then he can treat cleints and because it hasnt worked the cleints presume nlp is a load of nonsense. and then they find out you can become certified in a week and they are now certain its a load of nonsense.

to become certified in nlp you should have to prove that you can apply nlp as good as robbins, mckenna etc...., and prove it with real life patients. and that certainly is not possible in 1 week or 2 thats for sure

i think it all comes down to money at the end of the day. people can make a lot of money out of training people in nlp for a week or 2. but its not right. the government should do something about it


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

paulyD said:


> but is there any difference between cbt and nlp though? nlp is cbt.
> 
> cbt is extremely simple. it works by changing your concious thinking pattern. nlp does exactly the same thing.
> 
> ...


*C*ognitive *B*ehavioral *T*herapy. True, it works on your thinking. It goes slightly beyond the conscious thought. Together with the therapist you work on your automatic thinking of which you are no longer aware (because it is so automatic). You then change those automatic thoughts and replace them with better ones. E.g. you look at people and feel rejected immediately. Chances are those people never rejected you, it's just what you think. And that thought is so automatic you are not even aware that's what you are thinking.

A really important component of that kind of therapy is the behavioral part. You must practice behaviors to facilitate the new thinking. Over and over again. The combination of learning to think in new ways and behavior is what makes CBT so successful.

*N*euro *L*inguistic *P*rogramming focusses on reprogramming your thinking with language. That in itself is not a bad idea. It is just that it isn't quite enough to change well established routes of thinking. Also, since it is frequently self-administered or done by people with no formal education your chances of discovering which thoughts exactly need to be changed are slim. You really need a psychologist or psychiatrist to guide you through the jungle of your own brain.

Hope this helps.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Lisa said:


> *C*ognitive *B*ehavioral *T*herapy. True, it works on your thinking. It goes slightly beyond the conscious thought. Together with the therapist you work on your automatic thinking of which you are no longer aware (because it is so automatic). You then change those automatic thoughts and replace them with better ones. E.g. you look at people and feel rejected immediately. Chances are those people never rejected you, it's just what you think. And that thought is so automatic you are not even aware that's what you are thinking.
> 
> A really important component of that kind of therapy is the behavioral part. You must practice behaviors to facilitate the new thinking. Over and over again. The combination of learning to think in new ways and behavior is what makes CBT so successful.
> 
> ...


you said ''reprogramming your thinking with language isnt quite enough to change well established routes of thinking''. but that's exactly what cbt is - reprogramming your thinking with language

dont get me wrong i do like cbt and i use it myself but i just find that nlp offers so much more and it speeds up the process a hell of a lot and gets results a lot quicker

personally i combine the 2


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

paulyD said:


> *you said ''reprogramming your thinking with language isnt quite enough to change well established routes of thinking''. but that's exactly what cbt is - reprogramming your thinking with language
> *
> dont get me wrong i do like cbt and i use it myself but i just find that nlp offers so much more and it speeds up the process a hell of a lot and gets results a lot quicker
> 
> personally i combine the 2


If you read my post again you will find that CBT involves behavior.

I am quitting this thread now.


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

What I ask myself is wether CBT or NLP are really able to help anyone no matter what problems he has. I think that assuming this would be a bit arrogant. It's like no matter what kind of problems you have just come to us and we'll fix you. I don't think this is true.
Imagine a family father loses his entire family in a car crash, and also his legs and now he's disabled in a wheelchair and totally depressed and just wants to die. I think it would be really offensive if a psychologist now came along with CBT or NLP or whatever he uses and then acts as if he has all the answers and solutions to turn him into a happy fellow again. Just change your thinking a little here and there and everything is going to be fine again. How absurd is this? 
I'd like to see a therapist in such a situation and I'd bet he'd be as depressed as his patients and all his pseudo-intellectual crap wouldn't help him help himself. It's easy to sit there and give smart advice I can also do that. That's like telling a fat person to simply eat less or telling a drug addict to simply quit taking drugs. It's almost too easy. :boogie


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

norad said:


> What I ask myself is wether CBT or NLP are really able to help anyone no matter what problems he has. I think that assuming this would be a bit arrogant. It's like no matter what kind of problems you have just come to us and we'll fix you. I don't think this is true.
> Imagine a family father loses his entire family in a car crash, and also his legs and now he's disabled in a wheelchair and totally depressed and just wants to die. I think it would be really offensive if a psychologist now came along with CBT or NLP or whatever he uses and then acts as if he has all the answers and solutions to turn him into a happy fellow again. Just change your thinking a little here and there and everything is going to be fine again. How absurd is this?
> I'd like to see a therapist in such a situation and I'd bet he'd be as depressed as his patients and all his pseudo-intellectual crap wouldn't help him help himself. It's easy to sit there and give smart advice I can also do that. That's like telling a fat person to simply eat less or telling a drug addict to simply quit taking drugs. It's almost too easy. :boogie


theres a lot of theory behind it. its been proven that your feeling are caused by your thinking. therefore if you change your thinking you can change your feelings. and if you change your feelings you have a chance of behaving in ways, and developing habits that benefit you rather than sabotage your happiness and wellbeing

the fact that 2 people can have 2 completely different feelings in the exact same event proves that its the way that you think about the situation that determines how you feel. one person thinks differently in this situation than the other person because they both have different uncocnious filters (beleifs and memories)


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

Oh please, just because there are people out there who manage to be happy even though they are in much worse situations doesn't help me one bit.
I bet there are also people who can eat feces and at the same time talk themselves into liking the taste of it does this mean you can do the same?
I think this whole stuff is totally unrealistic. If your situation simply sucks then you cannot simply change your thinking and then be content with it.
If this really worked why don't the psychologists who believe in this prove it? Why don't they get their arms or legs removed and then show to us that you can still be happy?

Imagine 4 family members die in a plane crash and you're overtaken by depression and then someone comes along who lost 5 members in a plane crash and is totally happy again does this mean you simply flip a switch and you're happen again, too? This is absurd.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

norad said:


> Oh please, just because there are people out there who manage to be happy even though they are in much worse situations doesn't help me one bit.
> I bet there are also people who can eat feces and at the same time talk themselves into liking the taste of it does this mean you can do the same?
> I think this whole stuff is totally unrealistic. If your situation simply sucks then you cannot simply change your thinking and then be content with it.
> If this really worked why don't the psychologists who believe in this prove it? Why don't they get their arms or legs removed and then show to us that you can still be happy?
> ...


well what other options have you got?

nlp and cbt are simply tools that SA sufferers can use to help them recover. if you dont beleive in either then thats fine but what other options have you got ? stay a social phobic for the rest of your life ? pop a pill and hope your problems disapear ?

all we're trying to do on this thread is help people understand that good progress can be made in your life with nlp and cbt. it's foolish to write something off without even trying it for yourself


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## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

But my problem isn't SA. I wish I could trade all my crap for SA. At least you can do something against SA but I cannot do anything against my various diseases which are the main reason for me being depressed. That is why I doubt that CBT or anything else can help me because none of this can cure me or offer any hope.


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## UKPhobe (Oct 22, 2008)

paulyD said:


> i do think its silly that with nlp a person can be qualified in as little as a week and be free to start treating patients and charging money. were as in cbt you have to train and qualify over a long period of time (sort of like getting a degree in university) and also practice with real patients before becoming certified
> 
> that does put a lot of people off nlp and put a lot of doubts in people's minds





paulyD said:


> if you look at people like tony robbins, paul mckenna and even derren brown these guys are experts at applying nlp. these guys have every right to say ''i'm certified in nlp''.
> 
> the problem is joe bloggs can go on a course for a week or 2 and claim to be certified in nlp. and then he can treat cleints and because it hasnt worked the cleints presume nlp is a load of nonsense. and then they find out you can become certified in a week and they are now certain its a load of nonsense.
> 
> ...


To be honest David, if the NLP community are ever going to be taken seriously they are going to need to do a complete revamp in the way in which they promote NLP, they're going to need to go medieval on those making miracle cure claims and they're going to need to put a stop to this "become a therapist in 2 months or 2 weeks or whatever" rubbish.

Otherwise you can't blame the sceptics for taking the stance they do. I share much of that stance since it pisses me off too.


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## UKPhobe (Oct 22, 2008)

norad said:


> I think this whole stuff is totally unrealistic. If your situation simply sucks then you cannot simply change your thinking and then be content with it.





norad said:


> If this really worked why don't the psychologists who believe in this prove it? Why don't they get their arms or legs removed and then show to us that you can still be happy?
> Imagine 4 family members die in a plane crash and you're overtaken by depression and then someone comes along who lost 5 members in a plane crash and is totally happy again does this mean you simply flip a switch and you're happen again, too? This is absurd.




Nobody has claimed you can. I don't know who told you that you can simply flip a switch and change your thinking just like that. Although if there are NLP fanboys actually making those claims then it only adds to my earlier comment!

It's a process; you develop your thinking and perceptions of your issues and of life in general over time. That what therapy is, it isn't something that happens overnight. CBT and NLP are just different ways of doing this, much like conventional therapy or ECT or whatever. Some work better than others, some work better for the individual then others. It's all about trying and testing. CBT doesn't work for everyone, NLP doesn't work for everyone, ECT doesn't work for everyone, and conventional therapy doesn't work for everyone. It's annoying but sadly it's how the process works. 

CBT and NLP helped me. Plenty of other people had no success with them but found ECT did the job. Whatever works for you.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

norad said:


> But my problem isn't SA. I wish I could trade all my crap for SA. At least you can do something against SA but I cannot do anything against my various diseases which are the main reason for me being depressed. That is why I doubt that CBT or anything else can help me because none of this can cure me or offer any hope.


well what are the particular problems you are facing ? maybe we can point you int he right direct of were to look for help with your particular issues


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

UKPhobe said:


> To be honest David, if the NLP community are ever going to be taken seriously they are going to need to do a complete revamp in the way in which they promote NLP, they're going to need to go medieval on those making miracle cure claims and they're going to need to put a stop to this "become a therapist in 2 months or 2 weeks or whatever" rubbish.
> 
> Otherwise you can't blame the sceptics for taking the stance they do. I share much of that stance since it pisses me off too.


totally agree.

the thing that does my head is that i totally beleive in nlp 100% becuase when i look at my own particular problem with SA i realise that i developed this problem by actually using nlp myself but obvioulsy in a negative way. therefore i know that if i use nlp in a positive way then i can beat my problem

that's what does my head the fact that i have complete faith in nlp but other people are put off by nlp simply by the fact of the amaturish way that it promotes itself. if nlp promoted itself professionally like cbt then a lot more people would take it seriously and it would get the credit and recognition that it deserves.

if nlp is applied correctly you really can make miraculous changes. ive seen it myself


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## UKPhobe (Oct 22, 2008)

paulyD said:


> if nlp is applied correctly you really can make *miraculous changes*. ive seen it myself


Now see no offence but that's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Using terms like "miraculous change", "miracle cure" and "amazing results" (for example). It adds to the scepticism surrounding NLP and as a result adds to the criticism. Also it smacks of a cult like mentality which again adds to the sceptic's criticism. It's misleading!

Yes NLP has proven very useful in my progress, there's an attitude and way of looking at things which I've found very useful (reframing and "the map is not the territory" for example). Even some of the perception techniques I've found worked (not all). 
I wouldn't describe NLP as a miracle cure and I certainly wouldn't describe it as miraculous. Impressive, sometimes, perhaps, but I would not say miraculous and I think promotions like that only add weight to the sceptics argument (quite rightly). 

In a funny even though NLP is about language and the language we use in our heads much of its followers need to work on the language of its advertising. In my opinion anyway.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

UKPhobe said:


> Now see no offence but that's the sort of thing I'm talking about.
> 
> Using terms like "miraculous change", "miracle cure" and "amazing results" (for example). It adds to the scepticism surrounding NLP and as a result adds to the criticism. Also it smacks of a cult like mentality which again adds to the sceptic's criticism. It's misleading!
> 
> ...


when i say miraculous i mean go from one extreme to the other, to make a complete 360 degree turn. if used correctly a person can go from being frozen stiff on stage to being in the zone on stage. a situation that was once a nightmare can become something they love to do. thats a miraculous change, it's not just progress its a complete transformation.

i've met a guy who used to be as shy and anxious and avoidant as myself. and he has completely transformed himself with nlp. he's made a complete transformation. he hasn't just improved himself or made some progress, he's completely changed and he is the best possible version of himself. i don't say this lightly but he actually reminds me of tony robbins. he's the same type of guy. a leader, someone you instantly respect and take seriously. a master communicator. charismatic. completely in control of his life

imagine somebody like myself or anybody else of this forum i.e somebody whose life is controlled by anxiety. imagine a person like that becoming like somebody like tony robbins. i'd say that's a pretty miraculous change. miraculous is the only word you could use to describe that change cos any other word wouldnt do it justice

you can make miraculous changes with nlp. i'm not claiming there's no work involved and that the changes are instant. the guy i'm talking about took years to make his transformation and he had to put in a hell of a lot of work stepping outside his confort zone time and time again. and he experienced a lot of set bakcs and made a lot of mistakes.

but if you compare him now to who he used to be years ago the change is miraculous and that change was down to nlp


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