# Your opinions on lying?



## EgoManiacWhoLovesPeople (Apr 13, 2011)

When I was in church I was taught that lying starts with a small, seemingly insignificant white lie, then a gray area lie, then a full blown "black lie".

I'm now a full blown liar, so 2 years of trust building with my family and girlfriend are down the drain. They refuse to respect me as a human being, who has his own feelings, tastes, needs, dreams, etc.

So if I respect myself, unavoidably I end up lying to them. They go on being ignorant. But if I respect them and tell them the truth, then they treat me like dirt for being honest.

I can't help but wonder why reality is such an oxymoron of what people say you should do, and what actually works. This hypocrisy of "do as I say, not as I do" is a major reason why I lost faith in God in the first place.

If nobody takes their own religion seriously, how am I supposed to take them seriously when they want me to join them?


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## Glacial (Jun 16, 2010)

EgoManiacWhoLovesPeople said:


> If nobody takes their own religion seriously, how am I supposed to take them seriously when they want me to join them?


From what I observe, and I am quite observant, people seem to take the aspects of their religion that they find convenient or easy to follow and then think they are pleasing their god, then they just disregard the rest like it doesn't even exist. If someone claims to take their religion seriously, I think they need attempt to follow the entire set of rules. I could at least respect a person who does such, even if I don't buy their religion.


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## Urquhart (Jan 9, 2012)

I'd seriously recommend checking out Sam Harris' essay/e-book "Lying". He sets out a very compelling, completely secular case for lying never being morally justifiable - mostly based around the idea of, while honesty can produce some discomfort in the short term, lying is disproportionately destructive because it destroys trust and basically makes peaceful human cooperation far more difficult. 

Personally, I've not quite converted to the Harris gospel yet - I'm still a relatively frequent liar, mostly just to keep the peace or deflect any probing personal questions- but it's definitely gotten me thinking. 

So, if I understand correctly, your situation is that you feel like you need to lie in order to keep the peace between you and your family? That they'd rather you pretend to be a believer than be honest with them, while still holding to the "Lying is never justified" position? In this case, the ideal answer would be to say "Be honest and if they don't like it, so much worse for them", but that's not really a practical solution... Lying certainly seems easier, if more degrading to yourself. 

I wonder have you pointed this hypocrisy out to them? I assume you have, and they probably have brushed it off, but again, in that situation, honesty really is best. 

As for your last point, in the face of such hypocrisy, the only reaction is to not take their religious views seriously at all, as they've sufficiently proved how empty they are. For what it's worth, I think you're absolutely in the right in this situation, and whatever else, the moral high ground is yours. Not that that's much use... Wish I could be more of a help. The heartless, logical part of me is yelling "Screw them, if they don't respect your honest feelings, they're not worth your time", but it's never that simple with family. For what it's worth, you have my sympathies.


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## Akili (Feb 5, 2012)

Lying is important, but you have to balance the short-term benefits with the long-term costs. I think Radical Honesty is a neat idea. I haven't heard of the Sam Harris thing, but will definitely check that out.


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## LWR (Feb 27, 2012)

i agree with akili , sometimes you have to lie, but it depends on what you lie about, and who you're lying to, you cant steal from your parents and lie to them. but you can always lie about being late and say something came up or something while you were dozing off.

you probably heard the story of the young farmer, who kept lying about seeing a wolf, the 1st time they villagers believed em, the 2nd time they believed him as well, the 3rd time the same thing happened, but after that, the wolf appeared for real and no one believed him , so he ended up in big sht , the point is , there are things you have to lie about, but try not to make it a habit, as for why they treat you like crap, probably they want you to sense your mistake and feel guilty about it


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

It is still not acceptable - one wonders where all the untrustworthiness is from.

A person who does not lie stays out of trouble.


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## Akili (Feb 5, 2012)

LWR said:


> you probably heard the story of the young farmer, who kept lying about seeing a wolf, the 1st time they villagers believed em, the 2nd time they believed him as well, the 3rd time the same thing happened, but after that, the wolf appeared for real and no one believed him , so he ended up in big sht , the point is , there are things you have to lie about, but try not to make it a habit, as for why they treat you like crap, probably they want you to sense your mistake and feel guilty about it


"_Are you sure that's the point, Doctor?_"
"_Of course. What else could it be?_"
"_That you should never tell the same lie twice._"


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## LWR (Feb 27, 2012)

millenniumman75 said:


> It is still not acceptable - one wonders where all the untrustworthiness is from.
> 
> A person who does not lie stays out of trouble.


trust me, saying the truth 100% all the time, will definitely get you in trouble , thats from experience, sometimes you dont have to lie, just keep the truth hidden will save you from a lot of headache


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## LWR (Feb 27, 2012)

Akili said:


> "_Are you sure that's the point, Doctor?_"
> "_Of course. What else could it be?_"
> "_That you should never tell the same lie twice._"


indeed


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## Resonance (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't think lying is always automatically wrong, certainly not in of itself. I mean, a murderer could ask me which way the child he was pursuing ran...in this situation telling the truth would be vastly immoral whereas lying would be courageous and laudable, so lying is not intrinsically wrong.

It all depends on the context, self-interested deceit that harms others is generally wrong, but there are bound to be exceptions. I think there is a general moral obligation to honesty with those you trust and expect trust from though.


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## VaeVictis (Jan 18, 2012)

It depends on the reason. It's one thing to lie if someone will get physically hurt by it or if I'm lying to purposefully take advantage of an individual. But lying because you don't want someone to reject you for it, like past behavior, is unfortunately necessary. I would not fault someone for this. For instance, let's say a female I'm dating lies to me about having an abortion or how many people she has slept with. I wouldn't like that she lied to me, but if it was because she was afraid of losing me over it, I certainly wouldn't feel betrayed over it.


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## ThrashtilDeath (Mar 21, 2009)

I think lying is totally acceptable and even necessary if telling the truth will only result in negative repercussions for yourself and/or others. I've you've ever seen the movie "The Invention of Lying", you should understand just how horrible it would be to live in a world where everyone tells the truth.


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## Akili (Feb 5, 2012)

VaeVictis said:


> For instance, let's say a female I'm dating lies to me about having an abortion or how many people she has slept with. I wouldn't like that she lied to me, but if it was because she was afraid of losing me over it, I certainly wouldn't feel betrayed over it.


If there were any deal-breaking secrets, I'd rather learn about them early. Why would you want to get into a long-term relationship who wasn't cool with something like that, anyway?


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## VaeVictis (Jan 18, 2012)

> Why would you want to get into a long-term relationship who wasn't cool with something like that, anyway?


I understand where you're coming from, but you miss the point. There are alot of things I would consider dealbreakers as well.But what should a person do if they keep bearing their soul only to be denied over and over again? A person's heart can only take so much refusal before it learns that deception may be their only option. Like I said I wouldn't like it, but sometimes you have to stop playing the victim and try to understand where people are coming from when they lie.


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## Akili (Feb 5, 2012)

VaeVictis said:


> A person's heart can only take so much refusal before it learns that deception may be their only option.


At that point I think you would have to alter where you're meeting potential partners...finding people as weird as you are is what the Internet is here for, right?


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## fredbloggs02 (Dec 14, 2009)

Tuth is a word those in power hold over others to ensure they presume them inherently in the wrong, useful to inspire guilt in hesitant individuals and assert authority, to force abrupt answers from them whereas a skilled speech writer or politician who has studied rhetoric reconciles truth with infinity; original sin is it's allegorical expression. Most of Plato's dialogues only care to establish this truth and lend insight as to how to speak to establish it over others: truth is power. It demands intelligence to appear truthful, and men are not born equal so already the appearance of the wise old man, or the beneficient non-violent attitude betrays it's will to power when it loses itself in sophistry. Socrates perhaps the most famous example of this famous for "knowing nothing" infact implies a truth that exists apart from him...and his listeners... And yet, still he stole people's attention to listen to him....Even if that were all he'd said, I imagine he still belived he'd done something right.

I think it presupposes a certain naivete and guilt in the individual truth demands itself to be heard from. The most transparent people to me are those who practice hypocrisy as opposed to those who satisfy the "aesthetic of truth".. and what most mean by lying is anothers' failure to meet "the aesthetic of truth" they understand...and that doesn't exist so far as man differs from man and cares to express that difference to the fullest, which is important because we'd never know the truth of eachother dispossessed of that right. If someone embraced "the aesthetic of truth" as dogma, provided it never gave birth to any other form of truth, it would isolate people from oneanother; neither would express themselves to the fullest, both without truth and subservient to the individual who they're told possesses it, look to him to save themselves from the world without truth: neither seeing the other in clear light again.


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## straightarrows (Jun 18, 2010)

millenniumman75 said:


> It is still not acceptable - one wonders where all the untrustworthiness is from.
> 
> A person who does not lie stays out of trouble.


that what I thought,, when u learn in school is something and real life is something else....


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

straightarrows said:


> that what I thought,, when u learn in school is something and real life is something else....


Yes, but deep down, you know you lied.


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## Kascheritt (Mar 7, 2012)

Well, I lied and relatives lost trust in me.


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## VagueResemblance (Apr 17, 2010)

As little as possible. It's disrespectful. It complicates things.

This absolute 'never appropriate' business is naive and stupid however. Would you really tell someone suffering from a terminal illness, dying, semi-conscious, that things are about to get worse? There are other examples where truth gives no advantage and is just pointless cruelty.


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## Quinn the Eskimo (Jan 22, 2012)

lying is the same as everything else in this world. its just a thing. a concept. an action. it doesn't have a negative or positive connotation, we are the ones who give it one.

that being said, there are still some things that lying can keep you from - namely, the truth. most people lie to themselves more than they lie to others, and Id have to say this is the most important step to get past. just be honest with yourself. thats the only way life is worth living, and has relevance.


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## squidd (Feb 10, 2012)

I don't like lieing but I've gotten ok at it. All "adult" converstion is lies people claim to hate it when you lie but they only hate it when you tell them. They tend to hate the truth more.


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## WowIAmAnIDIOT (Mar 13, 2012)

To quote Sam Harris, "Lying is the royal road to chaos."

There's a reason most philosophers consider "honesty" to be either the most important or one of the most important virtues. Stop telling lies (even white lies) to others and yourself and you'll almost certainly see rapid improvement in almost every area in your life. Easier said than done, but mark my words on this one.


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