# How can I just stop feeling crap over my boyfriend watching GoT?



## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

It has really been bothering me the thought of him seeing all these naked women etc. He says he doesn't watch the show for sexual reasons and he hasn't even bothered to watch the finale but I can't stop obsessing over it. I tried to watch the show to tell myself it's not so bad but I was shocked how misogynistic it was. Topless women just for the sake of it. It was almost laughable. It makes me so uncomfortable.

Nothing he could say or do would make me feel any better. So how do I deal with these feelings? Before you say anything, no he doesn't watch porn.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

What if you discussed the misogynistic elements of it with him? Just because entertainment has misogyny in it, doesn't mean it can't still be enjoyable, if that was the case then 90% of all shows and movies would be unwatchable. So maybe discussing it with him and criticizing those parts together could help you feel that it doesn't reflect negatively on him for liking the show.


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## VanitysFiend (Jun 13, 2016)

MoonlitMadness said:


> It has really been bothering me the thought of him seeing all these naked women etc. He says he doesn't watch the show for sexual reasons and he hasn't even bothered to watch the finale but I can't stop obsessing over it. I tried to watch the show to tell myself it's not so bad but I was shocked how misogynistic it was. Topless women just for the sake of it. It was almost laughable. It makes me so uncomfortable.
> 
> Nothing he could say or do would make me feel any better. So how do I deal with these feelings? Before you say anything, no he doesn't watch porn.


I watch GoT myself and I know a few feminist bloggers who watch it aswell and who're generally positive about it (although season 5 did get alot of criticism). They like it because it doesn't sugarcoat the reality of how medieval society (read men) treated women, unlike alot of modern fantasy literature which often romanticises the past.

I think the sex and nudity in GoT is supposed make you feel uncomfortable, most of comes from prostitutes ffs, women who probably have very little choice in their 'career', who're paid to let men fu*k them and pretend to enjoy it. It's like the writers r saying "you want sex? Ok, here's Sansa Starks wedding night to Ramsay Bolton", "you want nudity, here's Cersei Lanisters walk of shame", it should make you feel rotten inside for having seen it...

The thing is though, the show never spells it out, that it's critiquing misogyny/sexism, and because of that it goes over alot of peoples heads, all they see is tits and they can't see the context...because tits, and often *****...it's all very distracting...what was I talking about again?

Anyway, I think you should talk to you boyfriend about it, there's nothing wrong with finding GoT a difficult show to watch, either as a woman or a feminist.

(PS: I know a girl who watches GoT with her boyfriend, and she really likes it, but a few years again she was in Amsterdam on holiday, and she told me how uncomfortable she felt anytime they went near the red light district, seeing semi-naked women in windows enticing in passers by wasn't her cup of tea, but because of my SA I never worked up the nerve to try to connect that with the themes in GoT)


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## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

You can show how badly women were treated without having a topless woman there to titilate the viewer every 5 minutes. The way the show portrays rape is appalling. You can make it obvious someone has been raped or is having sex without actually showing it. The majority of the nudity is just totally unnecessary. It makes me feel sick my boyfriend looking at these women who are there to excite the male viewer.

I have spoken to him and he agrees the nudity is pointless. Why should I be happy with him watching it? Why do you see so many naked women and no naked men? It is very unequal. Why are men often fully dressed while there are topless women writhing around?

It also makes me feel really insecure.. How do I compare to the beautiful women in the show? :/ Makes me feel sick.


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## surviving (Oct 2, 2015)

Let's take worse case scenario, and say he is watching the show for sexual reasons. What would that mean? What would be your worst fear?


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## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

I honestly don't know. Maybe not being good enough?


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## sad1231234 (Jul 10, 2016)

It seems to me that he is genuinely interested in watching it for reasons other than the nudity. If you still feel unfomfortable try discussing it with him


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

He is not watching it becuse of the women, but becuse GOT is the best series ever.

Many females watch this show...


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## Charmander (Sep 5, 2012)

If he's been watching the latest season there's hardly any nudity. My mom hates that kind of stuff but still watches it with me because she loves the story.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I haven't caught up with the last two seasons yet but I don't see how it's misogynistic at all (besides in ways that's necessary for the settings/story,) but it is relatively graphic and realistic, so not something to watch if that sort of thing bothers you. I doubt your boyfriend is watching it to see topless women, the internet is full of that. It's the best classic fantasy TV show, with high production values and a decent cast. There are plenty of other reasons to watch Game of Thrones.

You see topless men, including male prostitutes. You don't see dicks because you don't see genitalia at all.



















*edit:* OK I'm not up to season 5 but I've just seen a dick gif sooooo. There's also that.


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## persona non grata (Jul 13, 2011)

I'm not sure what to tell you, but you're being a bit ridiculous. 

There are almost definitely male characters in the show who are more physically attractive than your boyfriend, many of which appear topless and some of which appear naked. He might as well be making this thread about you. Well, not quite I guess, since you no longer watch it.

It's been said but there are other ways your boyfriend can see naked women. Frankly, there are better ways than watching an hour long episode for two minutes of female nudity. That's not the reason he watches the show, and your assumption that he's comparing you to these women (and comparing you disfavorably) is both unfair and unhealthy. Other women will exist while being attractive and sometimes your boyfriend will see them. It does not imply that he thinks you're inadequate.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

MoonlitMadness said:


> Nothing he could say or do would make me feel any better. So how do I deal with these feelings? Before you say anything, no he doesn't watch porn.


He doesn't need to say anything to you because you're the one with the issue, not him. It's just a TV show. It's not the first time you've made a thread about your insecurities about women on TV. Quite frankly, if you badger him about things like this, I'm surprise he's still with you.


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## feels (Jun 18, 2010)

There will always be women more beautiful than you and women who your boyfriend wants to sleep with. I think the sooner that you can accept that the better. But you shouldn't feel intimidated by this fact because it doesn't really matter at all. He's with you, he wants to be with you. I think you just have to get more comfortable with yourself and being confident in who you are. Obviously that's difficult and it takes time but once you get to that point you won't really worry much about these kinds of things anymore.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

MoonlitMadness said:


> It makes me feel sick my boyfriend looking at these women who are there to excite the male viewer.





MoonlitMadness said:


> Why do you see so many naked women and no naked men?


That's really not what it's there for and there is male nudity on the show as well.



feels said:


> There will always be women more beautiful than you and women who your boyfriend wants to sleep with. I think the sooner that you can accept that the better. But you shouldn't feel intimidated by this fact because it doesn't really matter at all. He's with you, he wants to be with you. I think you just have to get more comfortable with yourself and being confident in who you are. Obviously that's difficult and it takes time but once you get to that point you won't really worry much about these kinds of things anymore.


I very much agree.
On top of that, creating problems or being controlling when your partner does something, watches something or hangs out with others will probably only make the thing you're worried about more likely to happen.


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## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

Wow. Why are some people being so rude?Sorry for having insecurities. Christ. I haven't told him to stop watching the show so I'm hardly controlling him. I am asking for support not criticism.


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## Shadow5 (Jul 12, 2016)

I am a women and a feminist, and I still love GoT because of the political plot. The last season doesn't even have that much nudity in it.

You shouldn't worry about what shows your bf watch. As long as he is not watching hours of porn everyday or flirting with other girls, you shouldn't feel insecure about yourself. 

I kinda understand you in a way, because I also have a weak self esteem and I know that the slightest thing can trigger my insecurities. The only way to feel better is not to control your boyfriend, control yourself instead. Do what you have to do to feel beautiful and desired: buy new clothes, lingerie, new make up, work out if you must, but these issues I think are really abotu self esteem and you should work on that if you want to feel better and not annoy your boyfriend in the long term.


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## Ominous Indeed (Sep 6, 2015)

If he doesn't watch porn why do you believe he watches GOT for naked women? 

To turn the question around, why watch GOT for naked woman when he can do that on the other 80% or something of the internet instead?


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## KelsKels (Oct 4, 2011)

nubly said:


> He doesn't need to say anything to you because you're the one with the issue, not him. It's just a TV show. It's not the first time you've made a thread about your insecurities about women on TV. Quite frankly, if you badger him about things like this, I'm surprise he's still with you.


Wow, harsh.

I felt the same way when I first heard about the series and my husband started watching it. I watched a couple episodes, but also felt very insecure when these hot af ladies were taking clothes off. I talked to him about it and he said he likes the story and loves me and didn't see the problem. I figured I guess he's right.. As long as the show isn't affecting your relationship there's no reason to let insecurity take over and lead to jealousy. I mean guys are going to check out other women anyways.. It's a fact of life. But if they remain faithful to you and respect you, there is no problem. I think women have an unrealistic expectation of men, they think he'll be like Prince Charming and only ever have eyes for you. But it's not how life works. You need to get over the insecurity and accept that you can't control what your man sees.


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## Aribeth (Jan 14, 2012)

I don't trust a man who doesn't watch porn.


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## Miach (Mar 29, 2016)

Afreen88 said:


> I hate it when people say **** like 'he's with you' as if a man has a choice between me and Candice Swanepoel. He'd have Candice Swanepoel if she'd have him, which makes me question just how much a man can really like me.


I have to say not necessarily, based on my own experience as a man. I care more about, and care more to be with, the people in my life, than random celebrities. There are people who I know, in my life, who I would choose to be with, or to be intimate with, over random celebrities who I've never even met. Even if the celebrities are blatantly conventionally attractive. Although I can't speak for every man I'm sure most men are like this, so don't worry so much about that! 

(and please don't think hypothetically, like if they knew each other and she wanted him then he would want her, because you don't know that, that is just pure speculation, he might not even like her. There is no point thinking up hypothetical situations in which your partner might not want you and want someone else)

So sorry, just had to say it!


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## Svarog11 (Jul 15, 2016)

>misogyny

It's setting implies the society will be such. Bet you don't give a rat's *** that it's equally **** for men or anyone not of high birth. It's based on a book series from an author who writes a lot about violence, feminism and feudalism if that triggers you don't watch it but there is nothing wrong with your boyfriend watching it, you're free to voice your concerns to him and I'd encourage you did that but don't get upset when he tells you that he's not going to stop watching a show because tumblr told you it's bad.


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## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

Tumblr didn't tell me it was bad. I did. I knew I shouldn't have posted here.


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## McFly (Jul 15, 2014)

Guys like to look at naked women. It's just a part of our lifestyle.

I've only made it up to the third season and haven't read the books, but it's obvious they show some skin to pull in viewers. Like the pilot episode had a lot of topless women. But the nudity wasn't as frequent as the season progressed. Some of it is being used as a creative way of mixing fantasy with debauchery and the stuff that went on in medieval times. The rape scenes were graphic yes, but they weren't trying to glorify rape, it was pretty clear that Daenery's character was being abused when her new husband was having his way with her. But for the most part it's just a show for mature viewers.

Still, some of the content is there to titillate people, like you said. lol

_Staff edit - Video containing nudity was removed._


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## Protozoan (May 26, 2014)

I'd advise finding more serious matters to be concerned about.

Your boyfriend has already told you that he doesn't watch it for sexual reasons(and frankly I don't see why anybody would as it is one of the lesser appealing elements to the series), all you can do is take it at face value & move on, or stew in aggravation and possibly lead to straining your relationship over this trivial thing, and who knows; the beginning of a catalyst with further repercussions down the line even.

The choice is ultimately yours.

Au Revoir


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## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

You can suggest someone is being raped without showing it lol :') It's amazing how people try and justify the objectification of women.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

The men in the show are being objectified as well though, it's not like a single sex is being singled out.


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## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

There is way more female nudity than male. Come on.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

_Staff edit_

I've never seen Game of Thrones before but it looks like I need to watch it.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

You'll never change how you feel about this. And hoping he will change his viewing habits for you will lead to a very bad time. 

If my non-existent girlfriend had a serious problem with me watching shows containing beautiful women and nudity, I'd laugh and say, "See ya later."


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## sad1231234 (Jul 10, 2016)

It seems all good. Do your best not to worry about it, its not like hes showing interest in the scenes or anything


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

Pretty sure your boyfriend watches Game of Thrones for the plot. If he just wanted to see naked women, there are much easier ways of going about it.

I don't watch TV any more but when I did, I used to watch Game of Thrones. It's a great series. It definitely does have serious problems with misogyny - the gratuitous female nudity being only one of them. The gratuitous sexual violence was the reason why I stopped watching it. I totally agree with you that it's completely over-the-top and unnecessary. I've seen a lot of people argue that "wah wah it's necessary for medieval realism", but if that's the case, why do all the women have perfect teeth and no body hair? Game of Thrones has literally zero medieval realism. The nudity and sexual violence are there for titillation alone. Half of it isn't even in the books; it's been added in for the TV viewers. And the claims that men are equally objectified are just downright silly. But people will go to any lengths to deny flaws in things they enjoy.

But, honestly, if you want TV that isn't sexist in some way, you pretty much have to stop watching TV. To a greater or lesser extent, all TV is like that. Boycotting a series is no skin off my nose because I don't really enjoy watching TV anyway, but for other people TV-watching is a real hobby. Some people are more willing to compartmentalise and tolerate the aspects of a series they hate for the sake of aspects they like. And Game of Thrones is a good example of that - it's incredibly popular across pretty much every demographic. Even pension-age women watch Game of Thrones. There's a lot people are willing to tolerate for a good plot, good fantasy, good world-building and good characters. It doesn't really have an equivalent on television.

So I totally agree with your reasons for disliking Game of Thrones. People whinge about any criticism of GOT, but your criticisms of it are totally right, valid and fair. It sounds like your boyfriend agrees with you about the gratuitous nudity too. But it's not really fair to expect him to have the same limits of what he will/won't tolerate as you. It sounds like he enjoys it more than you did in the first place, so is probably willing to tolerate more. And unfortunately 90% of men don't give a **** about objectification of women anyway, whatever sympathetic noises they make.

But it seems like this isn't really about him watching or not watching a TV series, but about your feelings of insecurity. Any advice about those is probably above the paygrade of anyone on this forum. If you can get any proper counselling for your insecurity and body image issues, I bet it'd help a great deal more than anything SAS can say.


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## ljubo (Jul 26, 2015)

Aribeth said:


> I don't trust a man who doesn't watch porn.


Why not?


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

lisbeth said:


> I don't watch TV any more but when I did, I used to watch Game of Thrones. It's a great series. It definitely does have serious problems with misogyny - the gratuitous female nudity being only one of them. The gratuitous sexual violence was the reason why I stopped watching it. I totally agree with you that it's completely over-the-top and unnecessary. I've seen a lot of people argue that "wah wah it's necessary for medieval realism", but if that's the case, *why do all the women have perfect teeth and no body hair? *Game of Thrones has literally zero medieval realism. The nudity and sexual violence are there for titillation alone. Half of it isn't even in the books; it's been added in for the TV viewers. And the claims that men are equally objectified are just downright silly. But people will go to any lengths to deny flaws in things they enjoy.


:lol that's a great point.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

The only thing you can do is personal work. It's YOUR pain and YOUR insecurity. 

You need to stop being so vain and basing your entire worth on your looks. You're going to be old and wrinkly one day, what will you value then? There's always going to be someone 'better' looking. You shouldn't hurt over such a helpless situation.

Think about what IS in your control. What's in your control is your thoughts and your actions. Don't let jealousy/insecurity take the reigns.

The practical answer is realizing that your boyfriend is with you for a reason. Do you really think he's 'settling' for you? I highly doubt it, and if he makes you feel that way, you shouldn't be with him.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

Karsten said:


> The only thing you can do is personal work. It's YOUR pain and YOUR insecurity.
> *
> You need to stop being so vain and basing your entire worth on your looks. You're going to be old and wrinkly one day, what will you value then? There's always going to be someone 'better' looking. You shouldn't hurt over such a helpless situation.*
> 
> ...


This is so true. I have body dysmorphic disorder myself and, harsh as they sound, ideas like these are literally the only thing that helps with it.

The fact is that we're neither as ugly as we think we are, nor will we ever be as good looking as we'd like to be. And the fact is that, although looks obviously matter in society (particularly for women!), they're really not as important as our insecurities make them out to be. Think of the people you love and respect in your life and I'm sure you'll find looks don't factor into it that much. And after a certain age - which is coming sooner than we think - we all look the same anyway, whether we're Brigitte Bardot or Steve Buscemi. That's the reason we all need to focus on things other than our appearances. If we don't, we'll have nothing left when we get old. And being old, bald and wrinkly is a privilege - lots of people don't live long enough to complain about it.

If someone's with you, you can fairly safely assume they find you attractive. There's always going to be someone better looking than us out there, but there's also always going to be someone better looking than our partners. It doesn't make us want our partner any less.

What we have to remember is that you don't need to be perfect to be loved.


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## andretti (Jan 2, 2016)

if he wanted to see females , he would watch porn. This seems like your problem. You are insecure. He couldnt get with girls like that if he wanted to . Just cause you like him and want him doesnt mean everyone else wants him. You need to stop being so insecure, its seems very childish.


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## HenDoggy (Jul 26, 2014)

Trust me, if your boyfriend just wants to see hot naked girls he won't be watching GOT lol


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## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

Thank you lisbeth and the couple others who actually gave sympathetic advice. I find it very saddening that I being called childish for having insecurities. I would have thought the people on this forum would have understood what it's like to have insecurities, seeing as a lot of anxiety stems from low self-esteem. I thought people with mental health issues were more sympathetic but clearly I was wrong.

Comments saying if you were my boyfriend you'd leave me are harsh and make me feel worse than I already do. I had a pretty toxic childhood so I have grown up to have anxiety and low self-esteem.

Take a step back from your male priveledge and consider how it might feel to be a woman who lives in a man's world. "Men like to look at naked women." "Grow up" etc. I don't think I should have to accept something that makes me uncomfortable. If you don't think the show is sexist you really are part of the problem. The show teaches that women are to be looked at and judged. They are sex objects. You cannot say the same for the men in the show.

Why should my boyfriend have a problem with me expressing my worries? We have a happy relationship and he says my feelings are more important than a TV show. What a shame you guys can't understand that, and you think if you were in a relationship you'd choose a chance to see nipple over the feelings of someone who loves you :')


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

MoonlitMadness said:


> I would have thought the people on this forum would have understood what it's like to have insecurities, seeing as a lot of anxiety stems from low self-esteem. I thought people with mental health issues were more sympathetic but clearly I was wrong.


I would agree that people too often aren't sympathetic or helpful, but you aren't exactly being that in your own posts either.

You have mocked people for being single over disagreements in the past for example. That doesn't mean you shouldn't get help when you need it, but it does probably make it harder to actually get it.



MoonlitMadness said:


> If you don't think the show is sexist you really are part of the problem. The show teaches that women are to be looked at and judged.


It really isn't and it really doesn't.
If you and your boyfriend believe the show is sexist, that's great for you - you have that in common. But don't make judgements about other people or what a tv show teaches them.


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## McFly (Jul 15, 2014)

Wasn't trying to dismiss your concerns MoonlitMadness. But it's a popular show and people enjoy watching it. Since there have been so many comments in support of GOT it's probably best to try not to let the explicit content get to you.


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## Amphoteric (Sep 11, 2011)

The way to overcome insecurities is to deal with them. You're only looking for ways to validate them. 

Also probably not the best idea to lecture on what a good relationship is when from what you've written here, it seems like you're making your boyfriend not watch a show simply because you don't like it.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

MoonlitMadness said:


> Comments saying if you were my boyfriend you'd leave me are harsh and make me feel worse than I already do. I had a pretty toxic childhood so I have grown up to have anxiety and low self-esteem.


It is harsh but the truth. Being with someone that's hounding me over little things that shouldn't matter isn't an ideal relationship. It's miserable. I get that you're feeling horrible too but think of what you're putting your boyfriend through over a popular TV show.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

Not surprising to see a bunch of men in here denying that Game of Thrones is sexist. It is possible to both like something and acknowledge it has flaws, you know.

I don't believe that anyone who watches GoT can genuinely think it doesn't sexually objectify women. It's clear as day. Actresses from the show have spoken out about it. The majority of sexist **** in it has been added in for the tv series and isn't in the books. If you know that and don't care because you like the show, totally fine, no criticism. I like GoT and a bunch of other books/films that have plenty of flaws, and those flaws generally don't stop me liking them. But it's such a classic geek fallacy to deny something has any flaws because you like it and are invested in it. And also, not being funny, but it is absolutely no man's place to act as if they know better about what's sexist/objectifying to women than women do. Just admit you like seeing all the titties.


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## Kevin001 (Jan 2, 2015)

lisbeth said:


> Just admit you like seeing all the titties.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

lisbeth said:


> Not surprising to see a bunch of men in here denying that Game of Thrones is sexist. It is possible to both like something and acknowledge it has flaws, you know.
> 
> I don't believe that anyone who watches GoT can genuinely think it doesn't sexually objectify women. It's clear as day. Actresses from the show have spoken out about it. The majority of sexist **** in it has been added in for the tv series and isn't in the books. If you know that and don't care because you like the show, totally fine, no criticism. I like GoT and a bunch of other books/films that have plenty of flaws, and those flaws generally don't stop me liking them. But it's such a classic geek fallacy to deny something has any flaws because you like it and are invested in it. And also, not being funny, but it is absolutely no man's place to act as if they know better about what's sexist/objectifying to women than women do. Just admit you like seeing all the titties.


So if you think it's sexist to show gratuitous female nudity on GoT, and another woman disagrees with you... who is right?

As a man, I don't get to speak for "all women" but that doesn't mean you do. Women are individuals, aren't they?

And yes, I like the titties. If the women on the show don't like it, they should quit instead of choosing money over their principles.


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## Shadow5 (Jul 12, 2016)

the cheat said:


> And yes, I like the titties. If the women on the show don't like it, they should quit instead of choosing money over their principles.


I guess that wouldn't leave so many young women on TV now, don't you think?

Besides, I think Emilia Clark at some point stopped doing explicit scenes because she hated it. Lena Headley used a double for the naked 'walk of shame' scene. I kinda respect them for that.

I agree with many people here, this show is sexist in regards to explicit content. I don't have anything against explicit content, but I feel like straight and gay men are better served in explicit content with GoT than any hetero sexual woman.

Oh well, at least we still have Outlander for that


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

Shadow5 said:


> the cheat said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, I like the titties. If the women on the show don't like it, they should quit instead of choosing money over their principles.
> ...


Would it? I guess we will never know so long as there are actresses willing to compromise their values for a paycheck and fame.

They could easily tone down the nudity, but why should they? There are many WOMEN who watch the show and enjoy the female nudity. It's entertainment.

Besides, the whole point of this thread is an insecure woman wanting her boyfriend to stop watching a show because she's jealous. She doesn't want him to be seeing these naked women. What's next? He can't watch a show with a non-nude attractive female character because her face is too pretty?

The show isn't the problem here, insecurity is, and that can only truly be changed by the OP herself, not by changing her boyfriends viewing habits.


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## coldsorehighlighter (Jun 2, 2010)

Afreen88 said:


> What are you on about?? The OP has explicitly stated she has NOT asked her boyfriend to stop watching the show, and she's taking ownership of her feelings. Read the title: 'How can *I* just stop feeling crap over my boyfriend watching GoT?'
> 
> She's asking how she can overcome her feelings of inadequacy, not change her partner. Most advice she's been given right now is basically 'get over it'. WTF? If she could do that, she wouldn't be asking.


Hey yes, you're correct, I made the mistake of thinking I remembered what the OP wrote, so @MoonlitMadness I apologize.

So now that I've refreshed my memory of the original post, I don't know that there is any advice anyone can give her. "Get over it" is dismissive, but "Get therapy" might be the only useable advice.

But should she need therapy for being uncomfortable that her boyfriend watches a show she finds misogynistic? It's not unreasonable to feel that way, so perhaps her and her boyfriend aren't a good match?

She can stay in the relationship and endure these feelings.
She can get therapy.
She can try to control his viewing habits.
She can end the relationship.

That's about all she can do, isn't it?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Milco said:


> I would agree that people too often aren't sympathetic or helpful, but you aren't exactly being that in your own posts either.
> 
> You have mocked people for being single over disagreements in the past for example. That doesn't mean you shouldn't get help when you need it, but it does probably make it harder to actually get it.
> 
> ...


This.


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## KILOBRAVO (Sep 17, 2011)

Aribeth said:


> I don't trust a man who doesn't watch porn.


why not? Do you?

opcorn


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## KILOBRAVO (Sep 17, 2011)

lisbeth said:


> Not surprising to see a bunch of men in here denying that Game of Thrones is sexist. It is possible to both like something and acknowledge it has flaws, you know.
> 
> I don't believe that anyone who watches GoT can genuinely think it doesn't sexually objectify women. It's clear as day.


But it was OK to sexually objectify men with the photos, and "Phwooar" newspaper / twitter articles when women were drooling over the bare Torso of that guy from off Poldark?

Those articles etc... was something that certainly made me feel slightly uncomfortable and begin to, again, question my body.

I don't watch much TV because most of it is utter drivel anyway, so I'm glad I actually had to think for a minute to even realize what GoT even was LOL.


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## Shadow5 (Jul 12, 2016)

Well I do agree with the girl who posted this that shows like GoT can make a girl feel insecure, especially if you start comparing your body to those women who accept to be filmed naked. However, I think everyone should remember that these women who were chosen for these roles do not represent the average female population. Personally, I stopped caring about the naked women after some time, because I like the plot. I will not deny this is actually a very good show, one of my favourite. And after some thoughts, I do not even think that we should be against naked body on TV. We have a right of freedom of expression. What I dislike the most is the lack of diversity: we need better quality romance who shows romantic relationship who are actually realistic, respectful of women and that promote the concept of consent. And I don't think men are the only one to blame, when you look at some of the best sellers out there...*cough* 50 Shades *cough* We have too many stories out there involving stalkers and passive/weak women...but, I am out of topic now I think...

I agree with others that therapy can be helpful, but a few simple things could maybe help as well. Maybe her boyfriend does not do anything to reassure her about her body. If someone enters a relationship with someone who has low self esteem over something, they should try to reassure their s/o and help them get a better self esteem. Meanwhile, the insecure person. I think, should make real efforts to fight against her insecurities. In other words, she should work on herself: her way of thinking and her self esteem, rather than worry about what her boyfriend is watching. I am also insecure about my body, and fighting against toxic thoughts is a daily combat. When I start overthinking about my worries, I either do an intellectual activity or I workout. Not sure this works for everyone, but it works for me. If the people around her are aware of her insecurities, they can also support her as well.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

the cheat said:


> So if you think it's sexist to show gratuitous female nudity on GoT, and another woman disagrees with you... who is right?
> 
> As a man, I don't get to speak for "all women" but that doesn't mean you do. Women are individuals, aren't they?


Obviously I think I'm right and she thinks she's right. But that's not my point here. I have no interest in hearing men's opinions about women's issues. And one woman has a damn sight more right to speak about female feelings/experiences than ten men do.



Shadow5 said:


> I guess that wouldn't leave so many young women on TV now, don't you think?
> 
> Besides, I think Emilia Clark at some point stopped doing explicit scenes because she hated it. Lena Headley used a double for the naked 'walk of shame' scene. I kinda respect them for that.
> 
> ...


This. Often nudity on film is a choice between working and not working. The lead actresses have a bit more control, but the minor actresses playing the sexy props (aka the prostitutes naked in the back of half the scenes) don't. Esme Bianco (aka Ros) was reportedly fired for not wanting to do any more nude scenes.



KILOBRAVO said:


> But it was OK to sexually objectify men with the photos, and "Phwooar" newspaper / twitter articles when women were drooling over the bare Torso of that guy from off Poldark?
> 
> Those articles etc... was something that certainly made me feel slightly uncomfortable and begin to, again, question my body.


I haven't said anything about men.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

lisbeth said:


> Not surprising to see a bunch of men in here denying that Game of Thrones is sexist. It is possible to both like something and acknowledge it has flaws, you know.
> 
> I don't believe that anyone who watches GoT can genuinely think it doesn't sexually objectify women. It's clear as day. Actresses from the show have spoken out about it. The majority of sexist **** in it has been added in for the tv series and isn't in the books. If you know that and don't care because you like the show, totally fine, no criticism. I like GoT and a bunch of other books/films that have plenty of flaws, and those flaws generally don't stop me liking them. But it's such a classic geek fallacy to deny something has any flaws because you like it and are invested in it. And also, not being funny, but it is absolutely no man's place to act as if they know better about what's sexist/objectifying to women than women do. Just admit you like seeing all the titties.


I don't speak for women and you don't speak for women. I don't speak for men and you don't speak for men.

But here's a quote an interview with Natalie Dormer, who is actually on the show:


> Does TV's fixation with sex ever make Dormer uncomfortable? "I think sex and romance is a huge part of human motivation," she says, shrugging. "So long as it's informing the story then I don't see what the problem is. Obviously no one likes gratuitous sex or gratuitous misogyny, the same way people shouldn't like gratuitous violence.
> 
> "But I think Thrones is quite good in that way. The violence is quite naturalistic. It's not hyper-stylised. It's not glamorised. And the sex is quite real and dirty as well. It's about those raw, visceral qualities of human life that make good drama."
> 
> Filming sex scenes has never been a concern - certainly, she insists, she has never felt pressurised into them by a script. "Welcome to being an actress under a certain age in the industry," she laughs drily. "But, you know, there are sensitive men in the industry as well - writers, directors, producers. It's not just men against women. David Benioff and Dan Brett [the Thrones showrunners] are liberal-minded Americans who believe in equality. And we're all serving the story."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2015/natalie-dormer-sex-and-romance-game-of-thrones-scandal-interview/

And:


> As for Game of Thrones, where you're rarely far from exposed female flesh, she points out that the nudity is at least equal opportunities. 'There's plenty of male nudity in Game of Thrones, too. Sex is part of life, ergo it's part of art. If you're representing real life, then you will represent sex.'


http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle...-revolution-and-margaery-tyrell-a3162186.html


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## KILOBRAVO (Sep 17, 2011)

lisbeth said:


> I haven't said anything about men.


no. but its sometimes worthwhile to remember that sometimes women also objectify men in the same way that some men may objectify women, then only 10 minutes later those same women forget about that and go back to complaining about men objectifying women again.

the only difference is that its more "acceptable" for men to be objectified.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

I think there are two debates here: 1. Is GoT is sexist? 2. Should it make mm uncomfortable if her bf sees naked women?

If 1 was false (don't know myself, don't watch it), would that make 2 false as well?

Anyway, guys will always enjoy looking at naked women. Just nature. Wouldn't expect wife to stop looking at hot guys either - clothed or unclothed. Nature.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

Milco said:


> I don't speak for women and you don't speak for women. I don't speak for men and you don't speak for men.


Just gonna repeat what I said a couple of posts ago:



lisbeth said:


> I have no interest in hearing men's opinions about women's issues. And one woman has a damn sight more right to speak about female feelings/experiences than ten men do.


Any single woman's opinion on something affecting women has vastly more relevance and validity than the opinion of any number of men on that same issue. Same goes with the genders swapped. You have more of a right to speak for men than I do - you've been a man, I haven't.

Regarding GoT, it's an opinion that a lot of women share, as shown in a couple of mainstream newspapers.



Milco said:


> But here's a quote an interview with Natalie Dormer, who is actually on the show:
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2015/natalie-dormer-sex-and-romance-game-of-thrones-scandal-interview/
> 
> ...


Yeah, I saw that last year. Natalie Dormer isn't every actress on the show. Other actresses in the show have complained about it.



lisbeth said:


> Often nudity on film is a choice between working and not working. The lead actresses have a bit more control, but the minor actresses playing the sexy props (aka the prostitutes naked in the back of half the scenes) don't. *Esme Bianco (aka Ros) was reportedly fired for not wanting to do any more nude scenes.*


As someone else already stated, Lena Headey used a body double, and Emilia Clarke no longer wants to do nude scenes because she thinks they're gratuitous.

Natalie Tena complained about it, too. Lisa Nolan quit the show because of it - her contract stated 'no nudity', and then they tried to make her do it anyway.

I'm sure there are others who'd love to complain, but don't for fear of losing the job (and probably being blacklisted from other jobs in future - nothing makes you popular in the film industry like a reputation for being difficult to work with).



KILOBRAVO said:


> no. but its sometimes worthwhile to remember that sometimes women also objectify men in the same way that some men may objectify women, then only 10 minutes later those same women forget about that and go back to complaining about men objectifying women again.
> 
> the only difference is that its more "acceptable" for men to be objectified.


Are any women doing that in this thread?

And that's really apples and oranges anyway.


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## StephCurry (Jan 11, 2016)

Let's all start a petition to ban GoT.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)




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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

Game of Thrones is like softcore porn, basically it shows sexual acts but no penis or vagina is ever shown. 

And there's definitely far more graphic softcore porn out there, go on Youtube and type in Korean 18+ or just simply sex. I honestly can't even believe they allow some of this stuff on Youtube, if it wasn't for the angles hiding the penetration, it would be basically hardcore porn. And the Youtube account system is flawed to where as long as you have an account, any 11 or 12 year old can have access to these videos without requiring any sort of age verification.

Youtube allows softcore sex scenes. And in some instances they will show genetalia if it's "educational" There's a video on how to put on a condom with a big erect penis.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Afreen88 said:


> It'd be like me telling a guy with SA that a girl rejecting him is nothing to be afraid of, and that all he has to do is ask her out. Then going on to say he's ridiculous for feeling the way he does, and questioning why he even made a thread in the first place, because there is nothing we can say or do about it.
> 
> This is what the OP has received, which I don't find surprising. I've noticed that on these boards, especially if you're female, you either don't have problems, or they are less than, or you are the problem.


Which is exactly the reply many guys do get on here.
That's why I said there often isn't much support on here, but it's not as biased against one gender as you make it seem.



Afreen88 said:


> Not only that, the topic get's taken over by some other rubbish (the posts above and below mine, par exemple).


OP and others called the show sexist and attacked people who don't think it is. OP opened that "rubbish".

Again, I agree there could be more support on here, but when accusations are made, people are allowed to defend themselves.



lisbeth said:


> Any single woman's opinion on something affecting women has vastly more relevance and validity than the opinion of any number of men on that same issue. Same goes with the genders swapped. You have more of a right to speak for men than I do - you've been a man, I haven't.


I completely disagree.
Nobody has the right to speak on behalf of their gender/race/religion/whatever, and everybody has the right to voice their individual opinion on a topic.
I'd find it especially odd if men couldn't say anything on sexism, as, presumably, sexism isn't something that exists solely inside women, but is about the relationship between people - between men and women in particular. As men are a part of that relationship, refusing to listen to what men have to say doesn't seem right.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

xxDark Horse said:


> Game of Thrones is like softcore porn, basically it shows sexual acts but no penis or vagina is ever shown.
> 
> And there's definitely far more graphic softcore porn out there, go on Youtube and type in Korean 18+ or just simply sex. I honestly can't even believe they allow some of this stuff on Youtube, if it wasn't for the angles hiding the penetration, it would be basically hardcore porn. And the Youtube account system is flawed to where as long as you have an account, any 11 or 12 year old can have access to these videos without requiring any sort of age verification.
> 
> Youtube allows softcore sex scenes. And in some instances they will show genetalia if it's "educational" There's a video on how to put on a condom with a big erect penis.


Lol that Korean stuff isn't allowed, I've come across it before, they remove it reguarly but people reupload. Same goes for most other softcore stuff.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

xxDark Horse said:


> Game of Thrones is like softcore porn, basically it shows sexual acts but no penis or vagina is ever shown.
> 
> And there's definitely far more graphic softcore porn out there, go on Youtube and type in Korean 18+ or just simply sex. I honestly can't even believe they allow some of this stuff on Youtube, if it wasn't for the angles hiding the penetration, it would be basically hardcore porn. And the Youtube account system is flawed to where as long as you have an account, any 11 or 12 year old can have access to these videos without requiring any sort of age verification.
> 
> Youtube allows softcore sex scenes. And in some instances they will show genetalia if it's "educational" There's a video on how to put on a condom with a big erect penis.


Korean 18+ you say?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aribeth (Jan 14, 2012)

I've always seen GoT as softcore porn disguised as a legit medieval fantasy thing. It's like, having nude women and sex for the sake of it. And the story supports that, not the other way around.


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Lol that Korean stuff isn't allowed, I've come across it before, they remove it reguarly but people reupload. Same goes for most other softcore stuff.


Find all of the porn on Youtube, how fun of a job would that be? As long as you get to work from home


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## thtmansam (Feb 7, 2016)

The sex and nudity that goes on in GOT is a little excessive I'd have to agree because sometimes I feel like they could've left some scenes out but it shouldn't make you feel bad. I mean what are the chances your bf will ever meet any of those women and even if he did it doesn't mean he could have sex with em. To me GOT would still be interesting without the sex scenes they portray and its not even that deep its kind of on the surface they barely show lower body parts they mostly show upper body parts. At the end of the day its just a show, a show can't steal your bf nor can the women in the show since they don't know him and probably never gonna meet him. You gotta trust that he doesn't care about the nudity and sex in the show. 

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## VanitysFiend (Jun 13, 2016)

MoonlitMadness said:


> *Thank you lisbeth and the couple others who actually gave sympathetic advice. I find it very saddening that I being called childish for having insecurities. I would have thought the people on this forum would have understood what it's like to have insecurities, seeing as a lot of anxiety stems from low self-esteem. I thought people with mental health issues were more sympathetic but clearly I was wrong.*
> 
> Comments saying if you were my boyfriend you'd leave me are harsh and make me feel worse than I already do. I had a pretty toxic childhood so I have grown up to have anxiety and low self-esteem.
> 
> ...


I think your forgetting that alot of the posters here have very male insecurities, which are totally rational and are usually caused by females (because saying girls/women might humanise them too much), whereas female insecurities are totally irrational and can't in anyway be blamed on men cause it's not like we're all directly forcing females to be insecure about those things...

Gotta love a community where "guys like to watch porn, it's in their nature, so get over it" is seen as perfectly normal but "women like to date attractive men, it's in their nature, so get over it" is seen as a sign of how shallow females are...the b*tches...


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## railcar82594 (Mar 1, 2016)

I've never watched GoT. I was surprised to hear they had nekkid scenes.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

VanitysFiend said:


> I think your forgetting that alot of the posters here have very male insecurities, which are totally rational and are usually caused by females (because saying girls/women might humanise them too much), whereas female insecurities are totally irrational and can't in anyway be blamed on men cause it's not like we're all directly forcing females to be insecure about those things...
> 
> Gotta love a community where "guys like to watch porn, it's in their nature, so get over it" is seen as perfectly normal but "women like to date attractive men, it's in their nature, so get over it" is seen as a sign of how shallow females are...the b*tches...


That's because there are a lot of unattractive guys out there with beautiful women. You're view falls apart when things like that are a fact.


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## Overdrive (Sep 19, 2015)

Tits are great


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## KILOBRAVO (Sep 17, 2011)

thtmansam said:


> The sex and nudity that goes on in GOT is a little excessive I'd have to agree because sometimes I feel like they could've left some scenes out but it shouldn't make you feel bad. I mean what are the chances your bf will ever meet any of those women and even if he did it doesn't mean he could have sex with em. To me GOT would still be interesting without the sex scenes they portray and its not even that deep its kind of on the surface they barely show lower body parts they mostly show upper body parts. At the end of the day its just a show, a show can't steal your bf nor can the women in the show since they don't know him and probably never gonna meet him. You gotta trust that he doesn't care about the nudity and sex in the show.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


yeah i suppose. As long as the distinction between fantasy and fiction remains.....

People forget that all that stuff on TV is acted, scripted, edited, choreographed, blah blah. They forget its not really real. Same as porn... its not really really true to life is is? Sometimes its best if people remember that.

I would be interested to hear how the responses on a thread would have been, say it the original poster had been a guy and he was complaining that the GF was ogling all the bare chested / muscled guys on say a program like Baywatch, and was feeling put out.

I think he'd be laughed at / ridiculed and told to "grow a pair", even though the situation is on the face of it the same .

i suppose it may only be natural for people to feel put out when their other half is having their attention distracted by other people off of TV especially if its in a lustful way. but you shouldn't allot it to be letting it really really get to you too much. after the shows over, the person doing the ogling should more or less instantly be forgetting what they viewed and swiftly return to reality. If they cant , wont, or don't, then the viewer may have some problem if they cant return to reality.


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## VanitysFiend (Jun 13, 2016)

nubly said:


> That's because there are a lot of unattractive guys out there with beautiful women. You're view falls apart when things like that are a fact.


How does that cause my view to fall apart? There's loads of threads around here where guys complain that they can't get girls cause they're ugly, and that this is because women are shallow and superficial, which is bad...

Then there are other threads where guys defend the idea that men are just hardwired to like hot women/porn/teenage girls, and it isn't treated as a sign that we're shallow and superficial (and kinda predatory) it's just treated as a natural thing...

There's a double standard here, and I was drawing attention to it...probably poorly...

(PS*How many guys here would argue that those hot women with unhot guys r just in it for the money?)


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

VanitysFiend said:


> How does that cause my view to fall apart? There's loads of threads around here where guys complain that they can't get girls cause they're ugly, and that this is because women are shallow and superficial, which is bad...
> 
> Then there are other threads where guys defend the idea that men are just hardwired to like hot women/porn/teenage girls, and it isn't treated as a sign that we're shallow and superficial (and kinda predatory) it's just treated as a natural thing...
> 
> ...


Do you honestly not see a difference between fantasizing vs. actually insisting that anyone you date lives up to that fantasy? Men don't have standards the way women do, and that's what's frustrating about women.


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## VanitysFiend (Jun 13, 2016)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> Do you honestly not see a difference between fantasizing vs. actually insisting that anyone you date lives up to that fantasy?


I don't see how I'm making that distinction. R u saying that guys just fantasise about hot women whereas women actually demand hot men?



Wings of Amnesty said:


> Men don't have standards the way women do, and that's what's frustrating about women.


I'm really not so sure about that...


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## a degree of freedom (Sep 28, 2011)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> I don't have standards the way women do, and that's what's frustrating to me about myself.


Fixed.


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## a degree of freedom (Sep 28, 2011)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> Do you honestly not see a difference between fantasizing vs. actually insisting that anyone you date lives up to that fantasy? Men don't have standards the way women do, and that's what's frustrating about women.


_Where is @zomgz?_


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## Humesday (Mar 6, 2016)

CBT, therapy, meditation, exercise, medication (only as a last resort), etc. 

Even with all of the above it will still probably bother you a bit, but it won't be overpowering. 

Honestly, you're probably going to need to meditate for over 100 hours before you start seeing substantial progress in your mental health. Two months of daily meditation will gain you some progress, but to really overcome the annoyances of human psychology, it will take much longer. It's a long slog to mental health. I liken it to being in excellent physical shape long term. It's just something you have to work at continuously. That means undergoing the difficult task of establishing healthy habits. This is very hard to do. Good luck. 

BTW, forget about the gender wars on here. They're a black hole to nothing.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

VanitysFiend said:


> How does that cause my view to fall apart? There's loads of threads around here where guys complain that they can't get girls cause they're ugly, and that this is because women are shallow and superficial, which is bad...
> 
> Then there are other threads where guys defend the idea that men are just hardwired to like hot women/porn/teenage girls, and it isn't treated as a sign that we're shallow and superficial (and kinda predatory) it's just treated as a natural thing...
> 
> ...


There are also attractive guys that complain about not being able to find a gf. It's not their looks, it's their SA.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

They don't "have to" show nudity and sex scenes, but they also don't "have to" show graphic killing and torture of men. But no one is complaining about that. They show these things to increase the emotional impact on the viewer. There's nothing particularly wrong with either, but you have to remember that it's very finely choreographed and they have big hair and makeup departments that can make ordinary women look hot. None of it is real, and you have to just watch it with that knowledge.


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## VanitysFiend (Jun 13, 2016)

nubly said:


> There are also attractive guys that complain about not being able to find a gf. It's not their looks, it's their SA.


Sometimes it is their looks though, my issue isn't that women don't turn down guys cause they're unattractive, it's that many men don't even consider unattractive women as valid romantic partners. They spend their time desiring/pursuing the 8+'s of the world, while building up an unhealthy dislike of women as a class because the ones they want keep turning them down. They never see their own desire for hotties as a sign of shallowness, but they see women's rejection of them as a sign of exactly that, and it's not fair...


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

VanitysFiend said:


> Sometimes it is their looks though, my issue isn't that women don't turn down guys cause they're unattractive, *it's that many men don't even consider unattractive women as valid romantic partners. They spend their time desiring/pursuing the 8+'s of the world, while building up an unhealthy dislike of women as a class because the ones they want keep turning them down. *They never see their own desire for hotties as a sign of shallowness, but they see women's rejection of them as a sign of exactly that, and it's not fair...


That's not true though. Men aren't like that. Men aren't only looking for the hottest partners, what you're saying is complete nonsense. We're not rejected by "8+'s" as you call them, we're rejected by every woman.


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## KILOBRAVO (Sep 17, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> They don't "have to" show nudity and sex scenes, but they also don't "have to" show graphic killing and torture of men. But no one is complaining about that. They show these things to increase the emotional impact on the viewer. There's nothing particularly wrong with either, but you have to remember that it's very finely choreographed and they have big hair and makeup departments that can make ordinary women look hot. None of it is real, and you have to just watch it with that knowledge.


I think that's right. I made the exact same sentiments in my post earlier bit it seems as if common sense is more and more frequently being ignored on here. I'll quote you just to try and readdress some balance.


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## KILOBRAVO (Sep 17, 2011)

Afreen88 said:


> Perhaps it's being ignored because it's off topic. This thread isn't about men or 'readdressing the balance'. Stop bringing your own **** into someone else's. Poor OP, I wouldn't blame her if she's decided to abandon her thread.


I was merely stating that I was in agreement that with the other poster that you shouldn't pay too much attention to the stuff on tv. ( i say that's very much on topic ) its not really all that realistic , its not really all that true to life. its hypeed up content to increase its impact on the viewer a much as possible.

the balance I was referring to was nothing to do with men as you've very wrongly thought.

the balance I was talking about was the fact that people in this thread have gone way off tangent and forgotten about that TV is not always a realistic thing to be comparing yourself to yourself.


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## VanitysFiend (Jun 13, 2016)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> That's not true though. Men aren't like that. *Men aren't only looking for the hottest partners,* what you're saying is complete nonsense. We're not rejected by "8+'s" as you call them,* we're rejected by every woman.*


And women are?

Every woman...that you're willing to ask...


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

VanitysFiend said:


> I think your forgetting that alot of the posters here have very male insecurities, which are totally rational and are usually caused by females (because saying girls/women might humanise them too much), whereas female insecurities are totally irrational and can't in anyway be blamed on men cause it's not like we're all directly forcing females to be insecure about those things...
> 
> Gotta love a community where "guys like to watch porn, it's in their nature, so get over it" is seen as perfectly normal but "women like to date attractive men, it's in their nature, so get over it" is seen as a sign of how shallow females are...the b*tches...


Those links are just gold. I'm going to hear that voice every time I see the word 'female' on here now. Your posts here are spot on too.



Wings of Amnesty said:


> Do you honestly not see a difference between fantasizing vs. actually insisting that anyone you date lives up to that fantasy? Men don't have standards the way women do, and that's what's frustrating about women.


I hate to break this to you, Wings, but men having standards is the reason why the beauty, hair removal, anti-aging and diet industries are booming.

Meanwhile, most men don't make any effort with their appearances at all.



VanitysFiend said:


> Sometimes it is their looks though, my issue isn't that women don't turn down guys cause they're unattractive, it's that many men don't even consider unattractive women as valid romantic partners. They spend their time desiring/pursuing the 8+'s of the world, while building up an unhealthy dislike of women as a class because the ones they want keep turning them down. They never see their own desire for hotties as a sign of shallowness, but they see women's rejection of them as a sign of exactly that, and it's not fair...


This is proved time and time again on this forum. The male users say all women get male attention 24/7 and women are only ever single by choice - and meanwhile, there'll be two or three female users in the same thread saying "Actually, I've never been asked out in my life", and their posts get completely ignored.

Don't get me wrong, I think people should only date people they're attracted to. But the way people on the internet talk, you'd think only attractive women count as women, and very attractive women's experiences are the only female experiences there are.


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## KILOBRAVO (Sep 17, 2011)

lisbeth said:


> I hate to break this to you, Wings, but men having standards is the reason why the beauty, hair removal, anti-aging and diet industries are booming.
> 
> Meanwhile, most men don't make any effort with their appearances at all.


:-0 literally, i gasped. i feel thats a pretty rude and more or less sexist generalization you've made there.

1) have you thought that BOTH men and women use grooming products because they want to look good for THEMSELVES, take pride in themselves, and they aren't doing it for anyone else? maybe people have their own standards they set for themselves?

that sounds pretty low to accuse men "having standards" are the reason why women spend fortunes each year. 
by the same token you could say that men go to the gym to get fit / muscled / toned because of the "standards" women might have for guys bodies?

2) "most men don't make any effort toward their appearance at all?" EXCUSE ME? How rude. I exercise, have regimes to keep my skin clear, i shave everyday, wash every day, get my hair cut regular, style my hair every day, wear aftershave to try to smell nice, brush my teeth, but decent clothes that match and fit etc etc. Maybe I'm not "most " men then?


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## path0gen (Jun 28, 2006)

I must be missing something here. When I watch GoT, I'm never thinking "Damn, I wish my wife looked like that!" Shallow as it may sound, if my fantasies with movie characters/actresses started being more fulfilling than physical intimacy with my significant other, we'd probably just split up. 

Should we be worried about you all obsessing over Brad Pitt and Zach Effron or is that as ridiculous as this inverse situation?


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

KILOBRAVO said:


> :-0 literally, i gasped. i feel thats a pretty rude and more or less sexist generalization you've made there.
> 
> 1) have you thought that BOTH men and women use grooming products because they want to look good for THEMSELVES, take pride in themselves, and they aren't doing it for anyone else? maybe people have their own standards they set for themselves?
> 
> that sounds pretty low to accuse men "having standards" are the reason why women spend fortunes each year.


It's not sexist in any way, shape or form. You calling it 'low' is completely laughable. It's just reality.

Do you think we would do these things if we didn't want other people to find us attractive? It costs a lot of money and a lot of time. Pain too, sometimes.

If it's a standard we set for ourselves, how come we all try to meet the same gendered standard? People like to say "I do it for myself" for the same reason people like to claim they're not affected by advertising.

As if women wax themselves for fun. Come on.



KILOBRAVO said:


> by the same token you could say that men go to the gym to get fit / muscled / toned because of the "standards" women might have for guys bodies?


Isn't that a major reason a lot of men go to the gym, because they want to look more attractive? #notallmen obv, but a good proportion.



KILOBRAVO said:


> 2) "most men don't make any effort toward their appearance at all?" EXCUSE ME? How rude. I exercise, have regimes to keep my skin clear, i shave everyday, wash every day, get my hair cut regular, style my hair every day, wear aftershave to try to smell nice, brush my teeth, but decent clothes that match and fit etc etc. Maybe I'm not "most " men then?


Exactly, you're not most men. Most men don't do that much.


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## VanitysFiend (Jun 13, 2016)

lisbeth said:


> Those links are just gold. I'm going to hear that voice every time I see the word 'female' on here now. Your posts here are spot on too.


Deep Space Nines Ferengi where f**king gold for that kind of ****, I'm surprised someone hasn't made a compilation of every instance of one of them saying it...they pretty much only say the word with lust or disgust or maybe contempt in their voice, it's a pretty common source of memes among us Trekkies anytime we need to mock the misogynists in our midst...

If I where the drinking type I'd be tempted to make a game out of it...every time someone creates a post where they refer to women/girls as females, take a drink, *unless* they also use the word males instead of men/boys, but if they use the words men/boy(s) along with the word female(s) take two drinks...what ya think?


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

lisbeth said:


> I hate to break this to you, Wings, but men having standards is the reason why the beauty, hair removal, anti-aging and diet industries are booming.
> 
> Meanwhile, most men don't make any effort with their appearances at all.


You'd still get guys if you didn't do any of that. Maybe not the most successful and powerful guys, but you'd still have guys. That's the frustration that I'm getting at.


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