# Are U atleast 40 and still feel like a child?



## jook

Recently I had a consultation for an online therapy program. When I told the interviewer I wanted help for social anxiety he told me that social anxiety is actually "arrested emotional development." This happens when a person becomes stuck at a particular level along the developmental spectrum as a child. I thought about this and considered 1) how I don't feel quite adult in general, and 2) how being afraid of social interaction is in itself a childish state of mind. 

This seemed to make sense to me. It doesn't make sense to me to feel the way I do around people at 50. It DOES make sense though if I'm reacting from a five or twelve year old's perspective --the ages at which I experienced significant childhood trauma and became perhaps, "stuck."

Does anyone have any thoughts, personal insights, or experiences regarding this?


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## totalloner

I think the idea of being stuck can apply to a lot of people and other mental illnesses as well.
Peter Pan syndrome for example?
People with Schizophrenia, can start to believe the fiction inside their head eg. conspiracy theories.
Stuck at a child's/teenager's level, fear of the responsibility of growing up..yeah I can see how that might apply to any mental illness.


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## jook

Thanks for the response TL. However, I don't think arrested development is present in all mental illnesses. I don't see how that would apply with depression for example, which can be situational or due to chemical imbalances. 

This arrested development theory is particularly interesting to me as it relates to SA. Most people with SA can identify some severe trauma in their lives during important developmental stages, and the subsequent social withdrawal as a result of it. At that point further development was halted.

When I see my social anxiety as a child's response to a perceived threat (trauma) to my sense of Self, and that I got stuck in this response, it seems to make the fog of SA less dense. It's an "Ah, hah!" moment. 

So then the work becomes to realize just how "big" we are and realize the power we have to keep ourselves safe that we didn't have as children. And that this powerlessness is what caused us to become anxious. Perhaps we just need to literally "grow up." For me, there's something really profound in that realization.


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## leonardess

I completely agree with this theory, and I am certain this is exactly why I am the way I am. 

I experienced significant trauma from the time I was born right up through my teens. it did not stop until I joined the navy and left home. I do feel most of the time that my emotional development did not progress beyond, say, 18. I have had to work hard to grow and stretch my emotional resiliency beyond that to closer to my actual age. 

I again experienced significant trauma in my mid 20's which has further seriously affected my ability to relate to the opposite sex romantically or otherwise, so once again I feel I am at the same dating stage as say a 15 year old. 

if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. you're supposed to learn all this socialization as you're growing up into young adulthood. if you experience significant trauma, all your energy, your learning ability, goes into developing coping skills to deal with that trauma and so that becomes what you learn to deal with the world in general. it becomes ingrained habit instead of the other stuff you're supposed to be doing like learning about yourself and other people, how you relate to the world at large, your place in it, and so on. 

to deal with trauma, you may end up learning many things in an emergent manner. those things aren't necessarily healthy because the rest of your life is not made up of trauma, emergency situations in which you must make self preservation your number one priority, but you didn't have much opportunity to learn anything else, and so you go on relating to the world with those now unnecessary and therefore unhealthy coping skills.


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## leonardess

sorry to go on about this so much, but - 

social withdrawal. oh, completely get that. because i was molested by first my father and then my stepfather, I was totally withdrawn due to shame, embarrassment, confusion, well, the list goes on. there were also other kinds of abuse going on in my home, the place where I was supposed to be safe. 

I never learned how to interact with people in a "normal" way, on a basis of equality, ever. 

it is a very long, hard road back from such things, but I believe improvement is possible.


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## jook

leonardess said:


> sorry to go on about this so much, but -
> 
> social withdrawal. oh, completely get that. because i was molested by first my father and then my stepfather, I was totally withdrawn due to shame, embarrassment, confusion, well, the list goes on. there were also other kinds of abuse going on in my home, the place where I was supposed to be safe.
> 
> I never learned how to interact with people in a "normal" way, on a basis of equality, ever.
> 
> it is a very long, hard road back from such things, but I believe improvement is possible.


Leonardess, I am thrilled to get your input as I have much respect for you from other posts :yes. I too had the sexual molestation...a very traumatizing event at the age of five and further physical abuse later from my mom. I hope I've at least gotten past five, but then again, maybe that's why I like the emoticons so much :b:stu:help. I'm a grown-up damn it!:mum


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## jook

PickleNose said:


> Ehh. These therapy people will say anything to make you believe you can be "cured". The word "arrested" implies that it's fixable. I personally think if you're 40 and you've been this way all your life, you're not simply "stuck at a stage of development". You were probably born stuck.
> 
> Psychology is their profession. They have to believe they have the answers even if they know (deep down) they don't.


Well, that's one point of view...though not one I agree with


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## jook

PickleNose said:


> Head doctors can fake it a bit. You can't actually see something like "social anxiety" so they have a lot of wiggle room.


Pickle, that part I agree with. You're right that doctors can be full of s*** and give you false hope when they really don't know what the problem is or how to fix it. However, I think it's significant that many people with SA have had some trauma during the formative stages of development and that the beginnings of SA seem to have occurred during that period of life - hence arrested development which simply means emotional and social growth was stunted. By being afraid of and avoiding socializing we are responding much like a 3 year-old afraid to go to kindergarten and play with the other kids. When I see it that way it makes me feel a bit ridiculous and SA seems to be a childish response to adult situations/expectations.


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## jook

OK, Pickle. Thanks for your points of view. I still think there's a link here between SA and arrested development. Hopefully we'll get some other views and see what others think. If you don't mind though, have u actually been diagnosed with social anxiety?


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## leonardess

knowing where my trauma came from and knowing how it has affected me doesn't "fix" anything. Nothing like this is "fixable", but it can be made manageable. 

there is no one "answer" that can be applied to everyone with an identifiable condition. my SA came from events that I can readily identify and was reinforced by following events. I was born with a timid temperament, yes, and I am certain that had my parents been better equipped emotionally and mentally themselves, they could have done many things to help me deal with that temperament and to learn to socialize better. But they weren't so they did not. 

some "head" doctors are crap. some are very good. there are some out there who can help you manage your SA quite well. 

trauma experiences, I think, will always be a part of who you are. they contribute towards shaping you as much as any other experience or trait you may be born with. they don't just magically go away or completely cease to affect you. Like I said, they aren't "fixable", but you can learn to live with them and make peace with them, and move on. In fact, I think it's imperative to at least strive to do so or the traumatized person will never be able to change their lot in life, to treat others on a level playing field going forward, instead of with suspicion and mistrust and a converse over-trusting, pedestal-ish attitude.


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## Pam

I agree that SA is like an immature reaction to adult situations. I believe SA=weak sense of self/low self-esteem. And I too had many traumas in childhood. My whole childhood was about surviving. That's where my energy went every single day--trying to figure out how to avoid being hit and abused by both step-mother and father. And now it's like, sorry, I didn't have the experience of learning things that I actually need to feel like an adult. I feel like a goddam 4 yr old when I think about going out in the world, and so I can't handle things like working. It does literally feel like I'm still 5 yrs old and the world is full of these huge overpowering adults.

Altho I've made some progress with self-esteem, integrating, small behavioral changes, and ridding myself of depression, I still can't seem to make a dent in this feeling like I cannot go out in the world and participate as an adult. Like I don't deserve it, or I won't be able to handle it!

The other day I saw my therapist who I can't say has helped me that much, but he said something about me never feeling like I have any control over things in my life (my lack of a career and never having children). I left feeling quite depressed....then later I was mad too, but it made me see that maybe that's the difference between me and everyone else---I don't have a sense of EMPOWERMENT within my own life. It's quite depressing....So now I wonder if that's the key to my future--finding empowerment......does anyone know where to get some?


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## DarrellLicht

PickleNose said:


> Ehh. These therapy people will say anything to make you believe you can be "cured". The word "arrested" implies that it's fixable. I personally think if you're 40 and you've been this way all your life, you're not simply "stuck at a stage of development". You were probably born stuck.
> 
> Psychology is their profession. They have to believe they have the answers even if they know (deep down) they don't.


Since no advanced physiological concepts of the human brain exists yet, the tools that a psychologist/therapist are equipped with is the best there is to offer. They are there to help construct a coping mechanism.

It does seem somtimes they are proverbially throwing wet wads of tissue paper on the wall, and whatever doesnt roll off...


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## leonardess

Hey Pam - I feel like I know exactly what you're talking about. things didn't really start changing for me until I was well into my 40's. 

about empowerment. I think that's another way of saying that you know yourself, you know your place in the world, and you know you have a right to be treated a certain way. 

this weekend I had to stand up for myself with a friend. this will be a long story, but I think it's a good example of empowering oneself:

we're on a trip, one that we've been planning for quite a few weeks. it involves two overnight stays at a nice motel, gas, food, etc. 

there was never any question that it would be anything other than dutch treat. I know this guy, so I *never* expect him to treat me to anything. we've known each other for over 2 years and yes, we used to be a couple, but we don't work as a couple and never will. We do work well as friends, however. 

every once in a while I will suggest he buy me a cup of coffee on the weekend, like if we're going to a bookstore or something. even then, I wait for him to say yes or no, because sometimes the answer is indeed "no". 

so yesterday, we're on the road on this trip and it's at least a four hour drive. Now, I LOVE a road trip - I'll go at the drop of a hat. I'll go anywhere. anyway, after about 3.5 hours driving, we search for a Subway sandwich shop and finally spot one. we go in, we're standing in line waiting to order, and he says to me in a very deliberate way "from this point on it's dutch" and then "I wanted to bring someone with me so that I only have to pay half"......

yeah. I was PISSED. OFF. I didn't say anything at the time, instead i went into passive aggressive mode and just went real quiet. Like I say, I NEVER expect anyone to pay my way for anything, least of all him. I had been paying for my own crap anyway. I did eat one of his bananas that he had brought - after asking. I wracked my brain trying to think of something he had paid for since we left that I may have forgotten about, but there was nothing. so I got even more PISSED OFF. 

half an hour later we get to the hotel and of course he has noted my silent treatment. He says, coming at me with a hug, "I just want us to have a nice, enjoyable trip"

well that tore it. I said - without shouting but firmly - "so do I. so WHY would you say what you said at the Subway??"

to try and make a long story short, I told him that I will not be spoken to that way, and made to feel like I am an inconvenient fee reducer. That I am only asking for what anyone would ask for - to be treated with respect, and that I am more reliable than any of his other friends - I NEVER flake out on him, I will do things like help him take his car to the mechanic and give him rides to wherever he needs to go, I will even go grocery shopping with him. I will go see the crap movies he wants to see, etc etc and I KNOW for a fact that he does NOT talk to his other friends the way he talks to me sometimes (this is not an isolated incident) and that they would never put up with it either. I ended by telling him "Don't ever talk to me that way again if you want to keep my friendship. EVER."

Now normally in confrontations like this, I would have completely lost it, sobbing, shouting, drama drama drama, etc. But not this time. I simply let him know that I was angry, and that I was not going to put up with that ****. 

I left the room for a while. when i came back he was gone. eventually he returned and apologized, but not without a qualifier - "I'm sorry i said what i did, and I'm sorry you took it the wrong way" .....

I said "I didn't take it wrong. i took it the way it sounded. I took it the way anyone else would have". 

finally, he said "I'm just sorry". 

I felt pretty damn good about it. I'm not letting people think they can do or say whatever to me anymore. 

here's another example:

there's this guy at work, we fooled around a couple of times. we hardly speak at work. it was a while ago. no big deal. I never took it seriously. however, and get this, he texts me while we're at work just last week and asks if he can borrow $5 from me. seriously? he supposedly has all these friends and just loves the people he works with, but he comes to me, whom he hardly ever talks to, and wants to borrow money???

normally, the old me would have bent over backwards to get him some cash and would have gladly taken it over to him just for the chance to have some contact and conversation with him. 

instead, I told him no. that's all. simple, short, and sweet. 

I *think* that's empowerment. well, my version anyway.


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## jook

Pam said:


> ...maybe that's the difference between me and everyone else---I don't have a sense of EMPOWERMENT within my own life. ...So now I wonder if that's the key to my future--finding empowerment....


That's exactly the conclusion I came to after really getting that I was suspended in my 5/12yo reality in terms of socialization. The missing ingredient in (many if not all) people with SA is a sense of empowerment. As a child dealing with trauma I had no power except to protect myself by withdrawing from people. "The key" as you put it, is to realize I now have more tools (power) to respond to perceived threats to my Self. I HAVE this power, you HAVE this power so there's no need to FIND it. It's there. We only need to learn to use it.

The only way I see to do this is to consciously begin to act with the authority (power) we have as adults. It's like someone kicking a small pit bull puppy over and over until he cowers anytime the attacker comes near. Although he will grow to be one of the most powerful and ferocious of all dogs, he will continue to cower, not recognizing the power he has now to rip his attacker's head off, which he didn't have before. You're right Pam, it's about recognizing the empowerment and authority we have as adults that we didn't have as helpless children.

Most of us cringe at social encounters because we fear some type of humiliation. As children we may not have had the tools to deal with the results of being humiliated and were therefore traumatized by it. However as Leonardess puts it in one of her posts, as empowered adults with mature minds we can comprehend and enforce our "right to be treated a certain way."



leonardess said:


> "Don't ever talk to me that way again if you want to keep my friendship. EVER...I *think* that's empowerment. well, my version anyway.


You damn right that's empowerment. You go girl!


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## leonardess

I love this post.



jook said:


> That's exactly the conclusion I came to after really getting that I was suspended in my 5/12yo reality in terms of socialization. The missing ingredient in (many if not all) people with SA is a sense of empowerment. As a child dealing with trauma I had no power except to protect myself by withdrawing from people. "The key" as you put it, is to realize I now have more tools (power) to respond to perceived threats to my Self. I HAVE this power, you HAVE this power so there's no need to FIND it. It's there. We only need to learn to use it.
> 
> The only way I see to do this is to consciously begin to act with the authority (power) we have as adults. It's like someone kicking a small pit bull puppy over and over until he cowers anytime the attacker comes near. Although he will grow to be one of the most powerful and ferocious of all dogs, he will continue to cower, not recognizing the power he has now to rip his attacker's head off, which he didn't have before. You're right Pam, it's about recognizing the empowerment and authority we have as adults that we didn't have as helpless children.
> 
> Most of us cringe at social encounters because we fear some type of humiliation. As children we may not have had the tools to deal with the results of being humiliated and were therefore traumatized by it. However as Leonardess puts it in one of her posts, as empowered adults with mature minds we can comprehend and enforce our "right to be treated a certain way."
> 
> You damn right that's empowerment. You go girl!


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## totalloner

I have social anxiety but I didn't have anywhere near the childhood traumas experienced by posters on this thread.
So I'm not convinced the theory applies to people like me who have mild SA.


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## Hamster12

I too have had my power taken away by my parents. They were on the one hand very controlling (mother) and on the other very patronising (father) and I think to express my real voice would have been a risk far too dangerous, as they both would have taken pleasure in squashing it. It was like they were trying to deflect their inadequacies onto me, making me the focus of inadequacy. Sad, very sad. So I learned not to express my real self so that I could protect it. I'm not sure which parent is at the root of it, but I was targetted from an early age in my family and still am, in a rather devious and malicious way. It has taken me a long time to realise that this need to protect my true self was the source of a lot of my repression, and therefore my SA.

It's only now, in my 40s, that I am finding my voice, and knowing and realising I have the power to express that voice, come what may. No one can have enough influence on me to change that voice now. I AM that voice, actually there are two voices, I know that sounds schizophrenic but it's not, it's just like a pleasant conversation I have with my doubtful self and my confident self on an ongoing basis to resolve things but it's a very pleasant way of thinking, along the lines of a conversation between two very funny people, one a bit like Woody Allen and the other a bit like Bette Midler, and it's enjoyable. I have a smile on my face now, and I don't worry about things so much. I have discovered me, even if there are two of me really. BUT I would NEVER express either of those personalities in the vicinity of my parents, as I now feel they don't deserve to know the real great, funny me. It's a neutral robotic cliched response with them. And that works because they, for whatever reason which I have given up tryign to understand, will never welcome me. It's their loss.

So it IS possible to finally grow up, I just had to find my own voice. And I agree that in my teens, when this process should be happening naturally, this was blocked because I was trying to find ways to defend myself against the emotional difficulties at home, and trying to find ways of not even being at home if possible.


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## harrison

totalloner said:


> I have social anxiety but I didn't have anywhere near the childhood traumas experienced by posters on this thread.
> So I'm not convinced the theory applies to people like me who have mild SA.


Me too. I really can't relate to this at all, although I really feel for all of you.

I don't think I ever had anything that I would describe as traumatic happen to me at all while I was a kid. Had a pretty normal upbringing, my parents showed me love and were very supportive.

I also think my self-esteem is reasonably good. We used to have classes about this in a hospital I went to quite a lot a few years back - and I would constantly try to convince myself that perhaps my self-esteem wasn't good - to go along with the theory being put forward in the class. But I really don't think it is the case with me. I think I have a pretty healthy opinion of myself as a whole, although I get a bit down sometimes when I think that I don't have some of the things other men my age do - a house of my own, career etc.

I think the cause of our anxiety varies a great deal from person to person and I'm usually very skeptical of any theories that tend to lump people and their experiences together. ( no offence intended to anyone though, of course. )


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## leonardess

that's kind of my point - there is no one size fits all answer or explanation. I just happen to know how my SA developed and I can point to some pretty specific reasons for it.

Others just develop SA and there seems to be no tangible reason. 

whatever the case, I firmly believe that SA can be managed if not eliminated.


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## TenYears

A lot of the time, I do still feel like a child trapped in a grown-up's body. More specifically, I don't feel like I have any control in my life. Not my job, not my friendships or lack thereof, not my parents, or my kids, and most of all not my state of mind, emotional-well being. Or lack of.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that abuse from my mom is the reason I am the way that I am. I remember being 4 and 5 and being slapped, hit with a closed fist, having glasses and dishes thrown at me. I remember trips to the emergency room. I remember learning very early on that the world was not a safe, and definitely not a predictable place. And mostly I remember learning at a very young age that I was a mistake, and was not wanted. Anyway I hope I've developed past a 4 or 5 year old. But who knows.

If I knew what the answer was, if I had a shrink that could fix me, well I wouldn't be on this website on a Saturday night, and locked away in my apartment all weekend by myself. I think a lot of psychiatry is a big scam, but what other choice do we really have?


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## jook

don36 said:


> my parents showed me love and were very supportive...I think the cause of our anxiety varies a great deal from person to person


Just a side note: I'm not saying this is your case but their have been studies that show a correlation between being raised by over-protective parents and social anxiety too...whether due to traumatic experience or over-protection, development can be thwarted in either case. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint and experience


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## totalloner

What about a predisposition to anxiety?
I have a sensitive disposition compared to all my siblings.


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## jook

totalloner said:


> What about a predisposition to anxiety?
> I have a sensitive disposition compared to all my siblings.


Definitely. There is a tendency for people who develop social anxiety to be naturally sensitive to start with.


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## harrison

jook said:


> Just a side note: I'm not saying this is your case but their have been studies that show a correlation between being raised by over-protective parents and social anxiety too...whether due to traumatic experience or over-protection, development can be thwarted in either case. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint and experience


Oh yeah I can definitely see how over-protective parents could be a problem, but, as you've suggested - that wasn't the case with me either. I did all the normal stuff when growing up and even my teenage years weren't all that unusual. Worked, went out with girls etc - I think my anxiety developed much more as I got older.


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## syoung

I've always been a sensitive kid. And same as an adult and I think my SA has developed more so than I can cope with. I kind of think that I have had SA all my life but I thought it was more of shyness or embarrassment. But I have said over and over again in the last few years, I feel like I am stunted in emotional maturity. I feel like a kid in a grown man's body. Or I feel like I am ten years behind my actual age.


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## totalloner

don36 said:


> - I think my anxiety developed much more as I got older.


 I think mine did too mainly because I had to act like I was mature enough to handle responsibility. More stress being an adult for sure.


syoung said:


> I feel like a kid in a grown man's body. Or I feel like I am ten years behind my actual age.


 I do too. But maybe most adults feel like imposters too. Like you've been cast in a movie with a central role but you don't have the confidence to make it work. You would rather a supporting role.

Also My role-models (parents) never looked comfortable in leadership roles either.


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## jook

OK, so we've hashed this subject of arrested development out quite a bit. Some people think it applies to them and some don't. Some people can identify but can't identify any trauma or over-protective parents as a cause. I would say it doesn't matter what the cause is or if you can even identify one. What's important is do YOU feel that you have not kept pace with your age in maturation. That being said, assuming there is this thing called arrested emotional development, does anyone have any suggestions for how development can be "un-arrested" and emotional/psychological growth resumed?

My intuitive answer to this question is as follows:
1)stay conscious of and catch myself acting in immature/childish ways (i.e., avoidance)
2)Change my action to one that I think a fully matured adult would do (i.e.,go to the party)
3) Catch myself thinking in childish ways during the event (i.e. they think I'm strange, I'm making everybody uncomfortable)
4) Disregard these thoughts as something a 12yo would be thinking and dismiss it.

In a nutshell this would be the old fake-it-'til-you-make-it method coupled with cognitive/behavioral therapy.

Is this something that anyone would be willing to try to see if it would help them and post the result?

Does anyone have any thing to add or other suggestions on how to get "un-arrested.":b


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## syoung

I think to become "un-arrested" is to achieve the natural life changes that most folk do along the timeline of their lives.

Example: Graduate High School, graduate college, get a 1st job, get your own place, get a roommate, live on your own, start dating, get engaged, get married, buy a home, get fired, death of a parent, have a baby, and so on and so forth. This all may not flow the way I wrote it but I hope you get the idea.

Where did you get arrested in that timeline and how many years did you stay there? When you resume, will your body be able to meet the physical expectations of the journey? Maybe, maybe not. If the change is untainable work towards another...

Step one: Get un-arrested by defeating your fear, strive to the next "normal" life change that most people experience.

Step two: achieve life change and settle in for a period of rest and comfort before pushing the envelope again.

Rinse and Repeat.

Every life change has it's own set of challenges. And some may be moments and some may be years.

I'd like to give this more time that it merits but I have to go take my mom for mother's day.

More later if you have any questions.

Stan



jook said:


> OK, so we've hashed this subject of arrested development out quite a bit. Some people think it applies to them and some don't. Some people can identify but can't identify any trauma or over-protective parents as a cause. I would say it doesn't matter what the cause is or if you can even identify one. What's important is do YOU feel that you have not kept pace with your age in maturation. That being said, assuming there is this thing called arrested emotional development, does anyone have any suggestions for how development can be "un-arrested" and emotional/psychological growth resumed?
> 
> My intuitive answer to this question is as follows:
> 1)stay conscious of and catch myself acting in immature/childish ways (i.e., avoidance)
> 2)Change my action to one that I think a fully matured adult would do (i.e.,go to the party)
> 3) Catch myself thinking in childish ways during the event (i.e. they think I'm strange, I'm making everybody uncomfortable)
> 4) Disregard these thoughts as something a 12yo would be thinking and dismiss it.
> 
> In a nutshell this would be the old fake-it-'til-you-make-it method coupled with cognitive/behavioral therapy.
> 
> Is this something that anyone would be willing to try to see if it would help them and post the result?
> 
> Does anyone have any thing to add or other suggestions on how to get "un-arrested.":b


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## harrison

jook said:


> OK, so we've hashed this subject of arrested development out quite a bit. Some people think it applies to them and some don't. Some people can identify but can't identify any trauma or over-protective parents as a cause. I would say it doesn't matter what the cause is or if you can even identify one. What's important is do YOU feel that you have not kept pace with your age in maturation. That being said, assuming there is this thing called arrested emotional development, does anyone have any suggestions for how development can be "un-arrested" and emotional/psychological growth resumed?
> 
> My intuitive answer to this question is as follows:
> 1)stay conscious of and catch myself acting in immature/childish ways (i.e., avoidance)
> 2)Change my action to one that I think a fully matured adult would do (i.e.,go to the party)
> 3) *Catch myself thinking in childish ways during the event (i.e. they think I'm strange, I'm making everybody uncomfortable)
> 4) Disregard these thoughts as something a 12yo would be thinking and dismiss it.*
> 
> In a nutshell this would be the old fake-it-'til-you-make-it method coupled with cognitive/behavioral therapy.
> 
> Is this something that anyone would be willing to try to see if it would help them and post the result?
> 
> Does anyone have any thing to add or other suggestions on how to get "un-arrested.":b


I don't think I see it in these terms at all. I don't really see my reaction to a social situation as immature. It's just one aspect of me - in most other ways I think I've "matured" according to my 54 years of life. Also , I know other people our age that have difficulty with social interactions and they wouldn't necessarily even fit the criteria for social anxiety. I think everyone has problems with something or some part of their make-up - I don't think even the most "mature" person is always comfortable in every situation. To me it's a question of degrees and perspective.

Also - the little bit I highlighted above - sometimes I think it's actually quite a reasonable conclusion to come to that we are making people uncomfortable and that we are indeed acting "strange" - I've seen it quite a few times and i thought the person was definitely acting strangely and it did make those around them very uncomfortable. Often it's not our imagination, it's the reality of the situation.

Edit: I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't see it as necessarily "immature" to be afraid of a social situation - quite often the consequences of our reaction in that situation are considerable - people may indeed isolate us further, ignore us, think we're strange etc - I think the more important question is how do we react to that, because it is very possible that it will happen. Are we then "mature" enough to deal with the consequences?


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## totalloner

Sounds like you are judging yourself.."oh I'm acting immature here"...or "I'd better act more grown up in this situation"
The literature out there at the moment (self-help anyway), says be aware of your thoughts but don't judge them. Thoughts themselves can behave like naughty children. Just learn to live with them. Ignore them until they start behaving in a less controlling way. Wait till they calm down.
Taking thoughts seriously which are telling you "should" or "shouldn't" do all the time, is just adding pressure.

Sorry jook, I may have misinterpreted your post,,,anyway


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## jook

don36 said:


> I don't think I see it in these terms at all.* I don't really see my reaction to a social situation as immature*...


Don, I get from subsequent posts that the arrested development theory does not fit with you. For those that can identify with it though, I'd like to know how they feel this can be eradicated.



don36 said:


> Also sometimes I think it's actually quite a reasonable conclusion to come to that we are making people uncomfortable and that we are indeed acting "strange"...I think *the more important question is how do we react to that... Are we then "mature" enough to deal with the consequences?*


Bingo! The thoughts may in fact have validity and it is how we react to the thoughts that make a difference. Are we *mature* enough, strong enough in our own identity, to recover. Or do we crumble like an adolescent who really NEEDS the approval of his peers because his own sense of identity/maturation is not yet developed.



totalloner said:


> Sounds like you are judging yourself.."oh I'm acting immature here"...


Totalloner, it's more an observation of the thought than judgment of the self. I never said a childish thought was bad, or makes me somehow bad, It's just one I can then choose not to dwell on. But if you don't quite get or buy the idea that SA is a sign of emotional immaturity then I can see how you would see this process as being self-deprecating.



totalloner said:


> *The literature out there at the moment* (self-help anyway), says be aware of your thoughts but don't judge them.


I think this process is still within the framework of current psychology like CBT. In CBT you observe the thought then classify it as "erroneous" and are able to dismiss it through rationalization. In this case the rationalization for dismissal is that it's something that an emotionally undeveloped person would dwell on but not one who was emotionally in tact/emotionally mature.



totalloner said:


> Sorry jook, I may have misinterpreted your post,,,anyway


Nothing to be sorry for... Total_friend_ (I am so corny at times):yes


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## DayDreamingGuy

Yes, I feel like a child. I was raised in an over-protective environment. I had a number of traumatic experiences related to bullying.

I'm not entirely sure of the cause and effect there. I was very sensitive to start with, which triggered some people to target me. That made me miss out on some critical development, that then made it easier to bully me some more.

I think chance also comes into play there. I remember back in 1st grade things were pretty OK for me. Then some kids from the big city who had moved to the smaller town I lived in started in our class in 2nd grade and they were the ones that targeted me. Probably because they felt insecure themselves, starting in a new class. Let's say these kids had not started, my development might have been entirely different.

What I'm trying to get at is that it is probably a combination of predisposition and environment. I would probably still have SA even without these traumatic experiences, but they made it harder to manage the SA, as I now have a really hard time trusting people.


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## noscreenname

This might be true for certain type of people but I feel I am emotionally arrested because of my SA I don't have SA because I am emotionally arrested. 

I wouldn't trust someone who says this right off the bat without actually getting to know you and your history.

If anything I have always felt like an adult with poor social skills. Even when I was a child I felt this way, I never wanted to be a child and despised other children. So it isn't a simple a diagnosis as all that.

PS Drop the "online therapist" and save up your money to see someone qualified.


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## jook

DayDreamingGuy said:


> Yes, I feel like a child. I was raised in an over-protective environment. I had a number of traumatic experiences related to bullying.


*Feeling way younger than one's age and childhood trauma is common in many, many people who have SA. Hmmm...could there be a clue that could lead to a more effective approach to treatment - how about arrested development!*

[/QUOTE]



noscreenname said:


> If anything I have always felt like an adult with poor social skills. Even when I was a child I felt this way, *I never wanted to be a child and despised other children*. So it isn't a simple a diagnosis as all that.


In your case perhaps it was you who thwarted your own development socially by not wanting to interact with other children...just sayin', it's possible



noscreenname said:


> PS Drop the "online therapist" and save up your money to see someone qualified.


Thanks for your take on the "online therapist" but this guy said something that made a whole lot of sense to me...the number of people with social anxiety who report "feeling like a child" represent too strong of a correlation to be coincidental. And if you're feeling like a child inside and you're not one, obviously something went awry in your development.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE THOSE FEELINGS THEN IT WOULDN'T APPLY TO YOU


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## kesker

This is fascinating. I don't visit the forums. maybe i should. Really amazingly smart people here. Thanks for this.



> When I told the interviewer I wanted help for social anxiety he told me that social anxiety is actually "arrested emotional development."


Personally, that statement would really turn me off. It seems oversimplistic/one domensional and a tad bit judgmental. I'm in my fifties and I'm emotionally frozen in adolescence (or at an earlier stage) but I'm not sure it's a huge detriment. There's alot more to me than my emotional age. One thing that's happened as I've gotten older is my awareness/recognition/response to being emotionally "stunted" (maybe not even stunted, just different than society's idea of an ideal adult) has become more sophisiticated so I'm better able to recognize that part of myself in real time. Haha, to be honest I'm still terrible at it but when I can catch myself (slow myself down) I do some pretty cool things...some would say adult things, lol.

Trauma does "stick" me though and it's hard to move past. It's one facit of dealing with SA...There are many more I think. Brain stuff is confusing. :eyes


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## Locut0s

Thanks for posting this. I don't know if it's an actual theory or a proxy for how psychologists describe social anxiety but either way I find myself strongly agreeing with it. Unlike others I'm not sure I can say I suffered abuse as a child. I certainly was very loved by my parents. However I can point to a few incidents in my life as turning points where my anxiety got a lot worse and yes I'd say it's fair to say my emotional development stopped at these points. Thing is I think you have to couple these with a genetic susceptibility to SA and other factors. I was ALWAYS an extremely shy child who had difficulty relating with others besides my parents.


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## leonardess

I was going to compose a long answer to your question, jook, and then I saw this. This is exactly what i was going to try to say. excellent advice.



syoung said:


> I think to become "un-arrested" is to achieve the natural life changes that most folk do along the timeline of their lives.
> 
> Example: Graduate High School, graduate college, get a 1st job, get your own place, get a roommate, live on your own, start dating, get engaged, get married, buy a home, get fired, death of a parent, have a baby, and so on and so forth. This all may not flow the way I wrote it but I hope you get the idea.
> 
> Where did you get arrested in that timeline and how many years did you stay there? When you resume, will your body be able to meet the physical expectations of the journey? Maybe, maybe not. If the change is untainable work towards another...
> 
> Step one: Get un-arrested by defeating your fear, strive to the next "normal" life change that most people experience.
> 
> Step two: achieve life change and settle in for a period of rest and comfort before pushing the envelope again.
> 
> Rinse and Repeat.
> 
> Every life change has it's own set of challenges. And some may be moments and some may be years.
> 
> I'd like to give this more time that it merits but I have to go take my mom for mother's day.
> 
> More later if you have any questions.
> 
> Stan


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## syoung

leonardess said:


> I was going to compose a long answer to your question, jook, and then I saw this. This is exactly what i was going to try to say. excellent advice.


Thank you, Leonardess. I am new at this and sometimes I wonder if I am making any sense at all.

I appreciate the feedback.

Stan


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## jook

leonardess said:


> I was going to compose a long answer to your question, jook, and then I saw this. This is exactly what i was going to try to say. excellent advice.


Thanks for the response *LEONARDESS* in which you quoted *SYOUNG*, part of which I will reference below to respond to both of you.



syoung said:


> I think to become "un-arrested" is to *achieve the natural life changes* that most folk do along the timeline of their lives.
> 
> Example: Graduate High School, graduate college, get a 1st job, get your own place, get a roommate, live on your own, start dating, get engaged, get married, buy a home, get fired, death of a parent, have a baby, and so on and so forth.
> Stan


Isn't this the problem? Most people with SA will _never_ accomplish these "natural life changes" _because_ their emotional development has been stunted. This arrested development presents as social anxiety that makes it virtually impossible for some to get a job, get married, have a roommate, etc. It makes sense to me that the person must first recognize that they got snagged somewhere along the developmental spectrum. THEN they can begin to be conscious of socially anxious thoughts and behaviors as stemming from an obsolete program they logged into as a child/adolescent that is no longer useful/necessary/appropriate as an adult.

The arrested development (although it may not apply to everyone) gives a tangible reason for thinking as behaving as we do. It's embraces cognitive therapy beautifully as follows:

Thought: I can't go to the party because no one will talk to me and I will be devastated.

Rational Thought: That made sense when I was (12...16...whatever) but it doesn't make sense now. I'm an adult now and my sense of self is more developed than it was then. If nobody talks to me I may not like it but I won't fall apart.

Note: I really appreciate all the thoughtfulness that has gone into this discussion. It's been very therapeutic in helping me at least.


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## syoung

jook said:


> Thanks for the response *LEONARDESS* in which you quoted *SYOUNG*, part of which I will reference below to respond to both of you.
> 
> Isn't this the problem? Most people with SA will _never_ accomplish these "natural life changes" _because_ their emotional development has been stunted. This arrested development presents as social anxiety that makes it virtually impossible for some to get a job, get married, have a roommate, etc. It makes sense to me that the person must first recognize that they got snagged somewhere along the developmental spectrum. THEN they can begin to be conscious of socially anxious thoughts and behaviors as stemming from an obsolete program they logged into as a child/adolescent that is no longer useful/necessary/appropriate as an adult.
> 
> The arrested development (although it may not apply to everyone) gives a tangible reason for thinking as behaving as we do. It's embraces cognitive therapy beautifully as follows:
> 
> Thought: I can't go to the party because no one will talk to me and I will be devastated.
> 
> Rational Thought: That made sense when I was (12...16...whatever) but it doesn't make sense now. I'm an adult now and my sense of self is more developed than it was then. If nobody talks to me I may not like it but I won't fall apart.
> 
> Note: I really appreciate all the thoughtfulness that has gone into this discussion. It's been very therapeutic in helping me at least.


But isn't this the solution? Most people with SA stuck somewhere in life change should overcome their SA to strive for the next life change. It's the ONLY GOAL they should concentrate on. Baby steps.

If I was a HS graduate, then I would put all my energy into getting to the next step which is college graduate. Forget everything else for the present moment. Just concentrate on the next logical step.

And if I was a college grad, then I should be looking for a 1st job.

I guess my point is, stay positive. Where you are now, I believe people with SA are stuck at and need to see some sort of goal in mind. And use the life change markers as goals. While our peers with no issues are hitting each of these markers on a "normal" timeframe. People with SA seem to take a little more time... Which is why we feel younger than we actually are.

So it takes you 8 years to finish college. Don't feel bad. It's on your time frame. NOT ANYONE ELSE'S. Just get there.

Stan


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## jook

OK Stan: We obviously have different view points on this, and that's ok. Or maybe I'm just not getting my point across clearly . In any case I appreciate the input and feedback.:yes


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## syoung

jook said:


> OK Stan: We obviously have different view points on this, and that's ok. Or maybe I'm just not getting my point across clearly . In any case I appreciate the input and feedback.:yes


Probably same idea but different perspectives.

I appreciate the feedback as well!

Thank you.


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## jrconnn

Does anyone think that this is all about fear? Something that you were born with and has effected the thinking process. Possibly chemical imbalance. I come a family of 5 and no one has this.One has no fear at all. The others have little.I have never discussed this with any of them.


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## jook

jrconnn said:


> Does anyone think that this is all about fear? Something that you were born with and has effected the thinking process. Possibly chemical imbalance. I come a family of 5 and no one has this.One has no fear at all. The others have little.I have never discussed this with any of them.


 Hi jr: i guess you could see it's ALL about fear. Question becomes besides genetics and environment, what precipitating events might have caused such a hypersensitivity and tendency towards such extreme fear. Many times there has been trauma that seems to have contributed to this heightened fear/anxiety factor.


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## jrconnn

That's hard question , wouldn't the events and trauma be passed on though the genes?


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## jook

*JRCONN: *from what i understand, trauma/anxiety can be passed from mother to baby in the womb so i guess it can be genetic. there's so many factors that go into making us how we are. we've just been talking about direct trauma here because it's so prevalent in folks who have social anxiety.

To the board in general: BTW, viewing my social anxiety as arrested development has really helped me cognitively lately. Reminding myself that my anxious thoughts (i'm gonna look stupid), and actions (avoiding event) are my "stuck" responses from when I was a helpless child, is aiding me in lowering my anxiety response and getting on with things.

Can you imagine if we, as adults, still believed in the boogie man? You would cry & fret before going to bed, beg your mommy to please come over and sleep with you, have your dad to check under the bed before you could get in it, pull the covers up over your head trembling and sweating, and maybe pee the bed because you were to afraid to get up and go pee during the night. You could see how ridiculous that is for an adult, right?

To aid in the understanding of arrested development (which i keep hounding on beause i really believe understanding the connection can help reduce SA) think of things that made you very afraid as a child but don't anymore. Now imagine how you would think and behave if you were still frightened of those things. Now can you see your socially anxious response as an adult a fright response that no longer makes sense?


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## jrconnn

What I thought was a good program I took a ways back and had a good success rate from testimonials was Midwest Clinic for anxiety and depression, www.stresscenter.com/‎ Would this be something similar to the arrest and stuck response? Thanks


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## jook

*JRCONN:*
No, that's a therapeutic program with a cognitive behavioral therapy approach I believe.

In keeping with the subject of the "opening post" I would really like to know if you can recall any traumatic events in your childhood that might have contributed to you having SA.

Also, can you relate to feeling like a child in some ways or like you're younger than you really are in age


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## jrconnn

Besides having other traumas I will try to keep it simple.From 1st grade to 8th grade I attended 5 schools.Mostly because the neighborhood would change and the money was limited and so was moving very far.After failing a grade and repeating it over in a new school I was now 6'1 and the smart asses would say ,shouldn't you be in high school? After that I just stayed quiet and was dubbed as the toughest guy in school. I still had some friends from the other schools. High school lasted about 2 years.


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## jook

jrconnn said:


> Besides having other traumas I will try to keep it simple.From 1st grade to 8th grade I attended 5 schools.Mostly because the neighborhood would change and the money was limited and so was moving very far.After failing a grade and repeating it over in a new school I was now 6'1 and the smart asses would say ,shouldn't you be in high school? After that I just stayed quiet and was dubbed as the toughest guy in school. I still had some friends from the other schools. High school lasted about 2 years.


So you see you had some of the common childhood occurrences that many with SA have -- being uprooted often and bullying or being picked on by peers. So that sounds like you might have been traumatized and possibly didn't develop emotional maturity and your SA may be a symptom of that (among other things). But you may not feel that way unless you can relate to still feeling like a child in some ways. Well, it's something to think about anyway, and if it helps you to think of it this way, great. Thanks for your posts!


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## Pam

Jook, I agree that over-protective parents can also cause SA. I had abusive ones. But maybe when it comes to looking just at SA (instead of other co-existing things I have), it seems like the peer-abuse was the strongest cause of mine. It's like I still expect it to happen if I go out in the world.

Just a random comment/opinion--I have a very hard time believing people who say there was no cause to their SA. Maybe they are unaware of it, or they are aware of it, but don't realize the 2 things are related. And I hate it when people say it's genetic--there are plenty of people who are genetically sensitive, introverted, and shy, but they don't develop SA or have panic attacks in social situations. I think something environmental tips the scale. 
I also don't understand how one can have SA yet good self-esteem. I mean, I have pretty good self-esteem right now, as I'm sitting here typing, but put me out in a crowd where I will have to converse, and that self-esteem flies right out the window! lol.
Describing myself as "immature" or "emotionally stunted" is flat out the truth...IDK why anyone would be offended by those things if they are true. I'm not at all. At least i'm not in denial about it.

I'm glad you are finding your thought-challenging to help change your feelings. CBT style things rarely work for me because logic doesn't work on my younger aged feelings. But for some certain things it has worked.

You asked what else helps people and I didn't see many answers. What's helped me is *inner child work*. For traumatic abuse, traumatic loss of my mother, and yes, stunted feelings, and unfinished grief work from my early childhood. I have multiple problems caused by traumas and my main thing is PTSD, with SA just being an "offshoot" of that. I've written about the inner child diary thing I do in a blog a long time ago. I will try to put the link here. It's kind of old, but I can't explain it all here in this thread.

I didn't know this thread was so active--I went and wrote a blog instead of following it here! I just usually hang out over in the blog section.


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## Pam

Here is my blog about INNER CHILD work that I kind of made up myself if anyone cares to look into it. It has helped me a lot with my stuck child parts. It's really been the ONLY thing that's truly helped me. It adresses feelings rather than thoughts. Actually, it doesn't even "address" them, it just expresses them and that's worked so well for me. I am "maturing" because of it.

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/blogs/pam-21316/inner-child-diary-self-therapy-method-5840/


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## jook

Pam,

*Thanks for a great post to this discussion*



Pam said:


> ...when it comes to looking just at SA... it seems like the peer-abuse was the strongest cause of mine.* It's like I still expect it to happen if I go out in the world*..


*Yes! It's like childhood trauma is the elephant in the room when it comes to understanding and treating social anxiety . I never even thought of it until this online therapist mentioned trauma leading to arrested emotional development being a root cause (there can be other elements, of course) for SA. Although it's not the case for everyone with SA, trauma is recalled enough to think it would be be given significant consideration in any therapy or treatment for SA. Inner Child Work, which you mention below, should probably be a staple in any therapeautic "toolbox" for treating someone suffering with social anxiety. *



Pam said:


> Describing myself as "immature" or "emotionally stunted" is flat out the truth...IDK why anyone would be offended by those things if they are true. I'm not at all. At least i'm not in denial about it..


*Yes, some people do seem to have a problem thinking of themselves as emotionally immature or undeveloped. But, like you, it doesn't bother me. It's the truth! The truth is, we're afraid to go play with the other kids because (they won't like us, they'll think we're stupid, we might get embarrassed/humiliated...fill in whatever 5,10, 12 year old thought/emotion you want here)*



Pam said:


> I'm glad you are finding your thought-challenging to help change your feelings.


*It does seem to be helping. Reminding myself that those are the rational thoughts/feelings/actions of a child, but are irrational for me as an adult seems to lessen the anxiety I may be feeling surrounding a social event - whether it be anticipatory or during. *



Pam said:


> You asked what else helps people and I didn't see many answers. What's helped me is *inner child work*..


*I really think I want to look into some Inner Child Work myself to further get at this thing by becoming unstuck and hopefully see some meaningful progress. Thanks for mentioning that here. I think that is a good place to start as an answer to my question earlier about how we go about "un-arresting" or emotional development.*



Pam said:


> ...I didn't know this thread was so active--I went and wrote a blog instead of following it here!


*I'm so glad you found this thread. And I will definitely check out your blog.*

*Thanks, Pam!*


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## jrconnn

Thanks for your reply. Can you suggest a site that I can go to understand how the arrested development and stuck responses works?


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## jook

jrconnn said:


> Thanks for your reply. Can you suggest a site that I can go to understand how the arrested development and stuck responses works?


Hey *JRCONNN:*I am planning to research this myself, since Inner Child Work sounds like a good starting point for dealing with arrested development. Thanks to Pam for bringing it into the discussion. Pam mentioned having a blog and posted a link above. I followed the link but it was her blog showing some great art work (check it out!). I PM'ed her and asked about the blog discussing ICW and she said she would post it here. But you could also send her a PM and she may have some other leads for you since she is more knowledgable about the subject than I am. Hope this helps!


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## Pam

Pam said:


> Here is my blog about INNER CHILD work that I kind of made up myself if anyone cares to look into it. It has helped me a lot with my stuck child parts. It's really been the ONLY thing that's truly helped me. It adresses feelings rather than thoughts. Actually, it doesn't even "address" them, it just expresses them and that's worked so well for me. I am "maturing" because of it.
> 
> http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/blogs/pam-21316/inner-child-diary-self-therapy-method-5840/


The link to my blog post about how I do inner child diary writing is above. But NOT in the words INNER CHILD--IDK what that is, I didn't put it there! Instead you have to click on the long link I gave. Or go to my blog and look for it around pg 13. It's a post from March 2011.

Jook, IDK how you landed at my art--that shouldn't have happened! I have no idea how you made it there from here! Lol.


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## jook

*Pam*,
I just looked at your Inner Child blog. OK, it seems I had a different idea about what inner child meant. You're meaning, as you put it, "ego states" which sounds similar to multiple personalites but from your inference,isn't quite the same. That's not the same as arrested emotional development, although I'm not sure how or if the two are related. I think getting stuck at a particular level of emotional/psychological development is different from having ego states separate from the main personality. Thanks for sharing the info though. It's interesting how many ways the mind will restructure itself in order to cope... whether it's by getting stuck (fixation), or creating ego states, or the myriad of other coping mechanisms that can occur.


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## Marc999

I think it's difficult, even for a psychiatrist/psychologist/social worker...even yourself, to give yourself a clear answer. One therapist may give you a completely different opinion from the next.

In my case, I don't recall anything traumatic in my childhood. I do believe my current issue is fear of failure. Since I've made a few different attempts at various jobs/careers, I'm wary of trying yet again something new and not being able to handle it. Even though, out of necessity I have to. The self-esteem took a nose dive.
I'd like to be a happy guy again as I once was and I know it's all about satisfying employment, re-growing relationships and exercise/eating well. The trick is having the courage to get it all back and starting fresh, at any age.

That's just my opinion on what's happened.


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## Pam

jook said:


> *Pam*,
> I just looked at your Inner Child blog. OK, it seems I had a different idea about what inner child meant. You're meaning, as you put it, "ego states" which sounds similar to multiple personalites but from your inference,isn't quite the same. That's not the same as arrested emotional development, although I'm not sure how or if the two are related. I think getting stuck at a particular level of emotional/psychological development is different from having ego states separate from the main personality. Thanks for sharing the info though. It's interesting how many ways the mind will restructure itself in order to cope... whether it's by getting stuck (fixation), or creating ego states, or the myriad of other coping mechanisms that can occur.


I had multiple traumas and so I did dissociate at different points in my earlier life, and separate ego states were created, but not everyone's experience has to be that extreme in order to simply express feelings that they had as a child that are buried, stuck, arrested, etc--they all kind of mean the same thing. The trick would be to do it from the age appropriate pov, not the adult we are now. And rather than try to debate and argue or give logical arguments to the child/immature & irrational feelings, they should be allowed to be expressed and validated (even if with just silent acceptance). That alone relieves them (for me). But this is opposite to CBT techniques, and a lot of people, including many therapists, are against it. And I think it's also natural to say "well, accepting the feelings isn't going to make them go away!" I realize that doesn't make sense, but it works, so I kept doing it.

My ego states were created BECAUSE I was stuck in that time, and stuck with the old emotions--not able to "get rid" of them.. People do not have to have DID to do inner child work. I happen to have dissociation, but I never was like Sybil or anything with 3 separate lives or memory loss. (even if I was, i could still try inner child writing, lol) I kind of see people on a continuum. I may be further down the crazy end than someone else, but that can mean that the person who isn't as "messed up" as me can benefit sooner or get better faster doing that.

But yes, when I read what I wrote back then, I am a little overwhelmed with it myself--I have improved so much since then. I'm much more integrated and have healed a lot of the old feelings so they don't interfere with my life as much now. I feel less separated. More blended. More stable.

But your comments also help me see how maybe a lot of people might have read it and said, "oh, well I don't have DID/ego states", or "my childhood wasn't nearly as bad as hers" etc. and conclude "so that won't work for me." I really never thought of that before.....hmmm.....I really thought that it could help ANYONE who has old or immature or childlike core feelings that are interfering in the present and which they can't seem to let go of, correct, or rationalize away. I've told many people one-on-one about it and most say how great it sounds and yet they don't try it. They say "let me know how it goes." Well it's been years and it went well, but the only other person who's actually tried it is my boyfriend! And I nagged him into it, lol. I am aware that other people on SAS maybe don't have as many problems as I do, and that's kind of why I thought this would be good--My attitude was like "Hey, if it can help even someone like ME, then it can help you too!" But yeah, maybe people who can't relate to my specific experiences naturally assume the treatment would therefore not be appropriate for them. IDK.

It's rare that I see anyone on here that actually does something to help themselves. It's frustrating actually, to watch people complain, but not do anything. So I was glad to see you do, and that it actually helps you. It's always nice to hear about what helps different people. And I agree how interesting it is how the mind attempts to stay healthy and the different ways it copes with things. It's really amazing! :yes


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## Helicon

Much of it has to do with how much dating you do growing up and getting to understand the opposite sex better and what they expect out of you. People with SA or excessive shyness don't date much and aren't able to grow emotionally. Someone who only starts dating in their mid to late 20's is going to have 15 year olds maturity when it comes to figuring out what to do and how to handle it. That's why it's imperative for people with SA to start dating in their early teens, so various experiences with different people teaches them how to relate. I remember back in middle school we had to do square dancing and you had to pick a partner. I can remember being petrified having to do it. Looking back on it now I can see it was all an exercise on how to bond with the opposite sex. Unfortunately it didn't help me much. LOL


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## jook

Pam: I'm glad you wrote this very clarifying post.



Pam said:


> ...not everyone's experience has to be that extreme in order to simply express feelings that they had as a child that are buried, stuck, arrested, etc....rather than try to debate and argue or give logical arguments to the child/immature & irrational feelings, they should be allowed to be expressed and validated (even if with just silent acceptance)...And I think it's also natural to say "well, accepting the feelings isn't going to make them go away!".. but it works...
> 
> I can see how inner child work can help anyone any place along the spectrum of mental or emotional disorders, and even SA. And you're right CBT teaches you to dismiss or reframe (negative/irrational, and in this case and for lack of a better word, childish thoughts.
> 
> However, after giving what you say about acceptance of the expressions of the innter child some thought, I think in this approach I've come up with, I am actually using acceptance AND CBT to "unstuck" myself. Particularly as it relates to getting unstuck from social anxiety. I'm doing this by first recognizing (validating) that the thoughts or emotions I'm experiencing about socializing are emanating from that 5, 10, 12yo mind that created them. Once recognized they are *accepted* as such, for what they are. THEN the next step goes into a CBT approach. Now that I know this thought or emotion is coming from that place way down the developmental spectrum, and was a* rational* response for a child, it is an *irrational* (CBT starts here) response for an adult. The final step is to imagine an adult response/thought/emotion to the situation, and turn in that direction (go to the party, or whatever).
> 
> ...I really thought that it (inner child work) could help ANYONE who has old or immature or childlike core feelings that are interfering in the present and which they can't seem to let go of, correct, or rationalize away... My attitude was like "Hey, if it can help even someone like ME, then it can help you too!"
> 
> I think you're right. But I think along with accepting those inner child expressions there has to be a cognitive shift somewhere to adult brain chatter and subsequent behavioral modification. Just letting the inner child have it's say is not going to get you out of house and to that job interview or to your cousins wedding or whatever.
> 
> It's rare that I see anyone on here that actually does something to help themselves. It's frustrating actually, to watch people complain, but not do anything.
> 
> Again, I agree. For me that's the whole purpose...to get better and/or help someone else get better. Thanks!
> 
> :yes


----------



## jook

Helicon said:


> People with SA or excessive shyness don't date much and aren't able to grow emotionally...I remember back in middle school we had to do square dancing and you had to pick a partner.I can remember being petrified having to do it. Looking back on it now I can see it was all an exercise on how to bond with the opposite sex. Unfortunately it didn't help me much. LOL


You say it has to do with not dating but then you recall an incident of being socially anxious even in middle school...So obvioiusly your anxiety started even earlier than the dating stage, in middle school or earlier. People with SA don't date much BECAUSE they have social anxiety. They don't have social anxiety because they don't date. But in this thread more than trying to figure out why anyone has SA, we're looking at arrested development, perhaps due to trauma, as a significant contributor to the development of social anxiety. Do you feel as though your maturity & growth is stunted. Can u relate to feeling stuck at an age younger than you are? Thanks for the post!


----------



## Pam

"But I think along with accepting those inner child expressions there has to be a cognitive shift somewhere to adult brain chatter and subsequent behavioral modification. Just letting the inner child have it's say is not going to get you out of house and to that job interview or to your cousins wedding or whatever."

I've had some different cognitive shifts because the childlike feelings were let out and I was literally, physically, emotionally freed! Freed to think more clearly. It's the opposite of CBT where they say thoughts cause feelings. With me, it's feelings cause thoughts. (I know it's circular, but the ones that were causing problems, the immature ones, weren't budging with a rational apporoach) And then because I _feel_ different, it also opens up the chance or gave me the ability to actually work on behavior changes which I do that too.  I guess I do it all in a different order--the other way never worked for me.

But "just" letting my inner child write her feelings and cry and be heard and accepted and empathized with by me, basically unrepressing them, did HUGE things for me---

It cured lifelong depression.
I haven't felt suicidal for 5 yrs now, but was for the 25 before that.
It helped me continue to work on finishing the grieving process of my mother dying.
I have a much more stable sense of self (which has helped a lot in social situations, altho I have more to go on that)
My recovery time when bad things happen is much shorter/mature than ever before. 
And whereas I used to be a compliant doormat, I now stand up for myself. I got a backbone.
I'd no longer qualify for Borderline Personality

If a trauma happened to me as an adult, i could handle it fine and use logic so I didn't blame myself or let it make or break me. I can do that now. But having trauma as young child before long before I was capable of that ability, it affected me in a different way and so I believe that explains why it needed a different approach to get over the effects of it now.

So your question in the thread about being stuck emotionally at different ages, my experience and personal opinion is that the approaches need to be tailored to the age-level and strength of the core feelings. It really depends on the individual circumstances and like Freud said, (paraphrased) "Whatever works, do it."


----------



## jook

Pam: You have a great way of explaining all this. After my "Aha!" moment when the therapist mentioned arrested development being at the root of social anxiety, I had no idea where to go from there. I hope anyone else who was interested in learning how to become "unarrested" is following this thread. 



Pam said:


> "
> 
> I've had some different *cognitive shifts* because the childlike* feelings* were let out and I was literally, physically, emotionally freed!..."just" letting my inner child *write her feelings and cry and be heard and accepted and empathized with by me*, basically unrepressing them, did HUGE things for me... And then* because I feel different*, it also opens up the chance or gave me the ability to actually *work on behavior changes* which I do that too.
> 
> I totally get this now. I think you've identified a shortcoming with CBT it that it only deals with thoughts and as you so eloquently put it, working at the feeling level - allowing the childish feelings that were repressed to be expressed - is necessary too.
> 
> And coincidentally, what the therapist said was SA comes from Arrested *Emotional* Development.  Emotional = Feelings. So it is the emotions/feelings that have been arrested. If that is the place growth has been halted then obviously that is the place to go to resume growth - to the feelings. The release at the feeling level, will cause cognitive or thought changes, which then allow us to make behavioral changes.
> 
> So to recant, at the root of social anxiety are the childish emotions of a frightened, traumatized child. We must allow these stunted emotions expression in order to become unarrested from wherever we are stuck.
> 
> 
> So your question in the thread about being stuck emotionally at different ages, my experience and personal opinion is that the* approaches need to be tailored to the age-level and strength of the core feelings*. It really depends on the individual circumstances and like Freud said, (paraphrased) "Whatever works, do it."
> 
> And that is the million dollar answer!! To do this work you have to "feel" what YOU have to do to free your inner child and emotions that are stuck. I was trying to explain this all to a friend from my CBT social anxiety group. She got the part about social anxiety being caused by arrested emotional development - she has the child-like feelings and past trauma so she could get that. But when she asked me how to move beyond those stuck emotions I had no answer. The general answer is she/you/we must allow the inner child and stuck emotions to be expressed and accepted. But how to do this I couldn't tell her. You gave me a great response for her (and myself) now...*approaches need to be tailored to the age-level and strength of the core feelings*. So  you've gotta get in touch with where are and how much it's hurting - how old is that inner child and how strong is the feeling of being neglected and unheard. Get in touch with that and began the work of healing that however you have to do it. For you (PAM) it was writing. For somebody else it might be careening down a steep hill on a bicycle , or painting or drawing - I mean, children are all different . Thanks Pam


----------



## Pam

Oh I'm glad you like what I explained, Jook. It is almost impossible for me to get the whole thing across in writing I think. Probably a lot of people misunderstand what I say because of it. But even if I put specific examples of what I do on here, I still think people would say that is good for me, but not them, so I am leary about sharing it.

I also kind of look at it as I am helping myself as a _whole person_ rather than treating a _disorder_ i might have. And that's also why i have a hard time just applying it to SA. It's more that I look at the person and go from there, rather than the medical model of looking at the disorder and treating it. When i did it for a while, I started noticing that I felt different about things I wasn't even expecting. It was helping where I didn't even "aim" it, lol. It's had a general effect on me.

It's also morphed into other things. Like last year I had the 5/6 yo in me write to Mommy about what she thought and felt about her dying. I called that the Mommy Project. It was the first time I ever expressed that stuff! (because I wasn't allowed to at the time) This year I am starting to write to her as an adult in order to rebuild the connection that got cut off all these years (I irrationally thought I didn't deserve to think about her, so I didn't! all those yrs). I've written to her 2 times and I already feel something, starting to feel like I am deserving.

I guess the above is a good example of how another person can't just copy what i do because it's not what they need. But they could be creative and use the general technique to apply it to whatever they want. I do like writing, but yeah, other people could do it however they feel like doing it!

The reason I personally hate CBT is because it not only didn't help me, therapists who used that approach actually hurt me more/re-traumatized me with it because it was dismissive and critical of my hurt inner child's feelings (which made me relive the horrible pain all over again with yet _another_ person/authority figure I trusted). And when I would attempt to explain how it made me feel, they were even more "punitive."

I did read Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman and the ABCDE method for cognitive therapy is in it, and I do think that can be used for a lot of things that either you catch right away (irrational thoughts) or other non-traumatic things or situations where you can stop yourself from going down the wrong road and getting upset, etc. for "no reason." It works on the thoughts, and if a person's feelings aren't entrenched and been there forever, maybe it can work on those too. With me tho, my feelings rarely matched my thoughts. They seemed to have pretty much nothing to do with each other, lol!


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## jook

*The way we wish we'd been loved*

This thread has been dead for a while but so what :b

There was a lot of discussion here about childhood trauma which sometimes included parental neglect/abuse. When I came across this video I thought it would be appreciated here. It really touched the neglected inner child in me. Enjoy!

KID SHOWS DAD HIS REPORT CARD


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## Lize4

Afraid of social interaction is childish? Could have fooled me. Worked two and a half years in child care. Kids have as varied personality's as adults. Some children are bold, and some shy. My social anxiety developed from being abused. I have heard that you stay mentally at the age when the trauma started. That would have been around age 8 for me. So I don't know about all that, lol. I 100% feel like an adult, but not one who is about to turn 30. 30 seems like the magic number where your supposed to have your life all figured out and I am far from it.


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## jook

No one's saying SA is childish, but that it stems from being stuck at some immature level of development due to childhood trauma. You should probably start with the OP and follow the development of the discussion to get the gist of it. I think you may find it interesting


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## pinkkeith

Lize4 said:


> Afraid of social interaction is childish? Could have fooled me. Worked two and a half years in child care. Kids have as varied personality's as adults. Some children are bold, and some shy.


I can understand what you're saying and I do agree. It also raises the question about social anxiety being caused by heredity versus environment. Yet, I do think that children that are shy at that early age do tend to get over it and adjust to the social world. I don't think I have done so yet.



Lize4 said:


> My social anxiety developed from being abused. I have heard that you stay mentally at the age when the trauma started. That would have been around age 8 for me. So I don't know about all that, lol. I 100% feel like an adult, but not one who is about to turn 30. 30 seems like the magic number where your supposed to have your life all figured out and I am far from it.


I do feel like an adult as well in many different aspects of my life. Yet, when it comes to social interaction I feel like I'm emotionally and psychologically like an eight year old.


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## hypestyle

I'm still working on getting a new job and getting my own place to live; then I'll feel more "grown up"-- I can set my own rules, come and go as I please, play whatever music I feel like (though of course being respectful of noise levels for neighbors), and I can at least theoretically have company over, especially women.


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## simplyshy

jook said:


> Recently I had a consultation for an online therapy program. When I told the interviewer I wanted help for social anxiety he told me that social anxiety is actually "arrested emotional development." This happens when a person becomes stuck at a particular level along the developmental spectrum as a child. I thought about this and considered 1) how I don't feel quite adult in general, and 2) how being afraid of social interaction is in itself a childish state of mind.
> 
> This seemed to make sense to me. It doesn't make sense to me to feel the way I do around people at 50. It DOES make sense though if I'm reacting from a five or twelve year old's perspective --the ages at which I experienced significant childhood trauma and became perhaps, "stuck."
> 
> Does anyone have any thoughts, personal insights, or experiences regarding this?


OMG this sounds like me. I still have stuffed animals on my bed. I was never taught how to cope well with situations either, so I guess I was on my own in dealing with things especially a negative situation. But yeah you are not alone!


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## Pam

jook said:


> This thread has been dead for a while but so what :b
> 
> There was a lot of discussion here about childhood trauma which sometimes included parental neglect/abuse. When I came across this video I thought it would be appreciated here. It really touched the neglected inner child in me. Enjoy!
> 
> KID SHOWS DAD HIS REPORT CARD


Seems like I'm crying about all kinds of things lately--Blackfish movie last night on CNN, and now this video too, lol.

Inner child work/self-therapy update:

I am now having my 9 yr old self write about her feelings she has about being abused and made to feel completely worthless from my emot/phys abusive father. I write things and then feel really bad and cry about it. Then move to the next item. I'm using an old list of things I wrote about 7 yrs ago. Every sentence started with "My real father would have..." meaning one who was a GOOD father, would have... (examples are "My real father would've smiled at me." or "My real father would have taken me and my friends out for ice cream or pizza." Now I'm adding feeling to those statements, "but he didn't. Instead he hated me, wouldn't look at me, didn't eat dinner with me," etc. and how it made me feel. "I guess he hated me. I felt so ugly and bad," etc. and this makes the feelings really raw and I cry for however long I want. Some people call that feeling sorry for yourself, I call it healing  ) It's like grieving in a way. I also stick to my old belief that pure expression can relieve things. I've ALWAYS been ANGRY about how I was treated from 8 to 19, but I never felt the SAD feelings. Those are harder to let come out. It feels more vulnerable. Doing this writing now, I'm doing it from the 9 yr old's pov, but I am also feeling it too and we cry together, if that makes sense. But it seems worth it so I keep doing it. 

PS. I used to write my angry feelings out too--not just sadness, but I figure why hold the sadness in too? It should come out, no matter what the feelings are. And I've heard (and agree) that anger's always covering up something else--the root emotion like sadness, hurt, frustration, helplessness. That's why expressing anger isn't enough or complete to heal. From my experience anyway.


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## Lize4

pinkkeith said:


> I can understand what you're saying and I do agree. It also raises the question about social anxiety being caused by heredity versus environment. Yet, I do think that children that are shy at that early age do tend to get over it and adjust to the social world.


I have read that shyness is hereditary. As for social anxiety, I lean towards environment.

@Helicon Square-Dancing!!! HAHA!! That brings back so many memories I would rather forget. Being picked last because I was that awkward girl who never talked.

@Pam I will have to try that. I too am struggling from trauma from an abusive father.


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## riderless

Oh yes of course.


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## 3dmuscle

This makes so much sense to me and i truly believe that this is where my problem lies. I always had this immature side to me that i keep struggling with and one of the reasons that i avoid talking to people, so they don't see how immature my thoughts are. I always felt stuck, emotionally speaking, and i catch myself behaving in ways that don't match my age, it is just hard to control.


I had an employee review at work, recently, and it was a disaster, and playing back in my head how i behaved and answered some questions, i felt like a child in front of a group of adults...it was just a horrible experience


Thanks Op for starting this thread


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## typicalanimal

I've noticed since I hit about 26 or 27, people now look at me and react to me differently. It's like they give me a bit more respect as if they consider me an actual full adult, they think I've been around the block a few times and would be able to handle any kind of situation. Unfortunately the truth is I'm less savvy than the average 20 year old in almost any social situation, I've seen people shocked at how clueless I am sometimes. I'm trying to act in every way that I can like.... well, a "proper" adult. 

I'm sure some day I'll be "too old" and then people will start to look down on me again. People are such *****es.


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## Jeff

Interesting thread, I wish I had seen this back in May. I'm not sure what to make of this theory of 'arrested emotional development', but here are my initial thoughts:

Yes, I have often felt like my emotional development stalled out somewhere in my mid to late teens. I'm nearly 40 now. However, where as you are suggesting some traumatic event causes people to get 'stuck' emotionally at a certain age, I feel like it worked the other way around for me. In my absolute earliest memories of my life, going back to pre-school or earlier, I remember feeling intense social anxiety. I talked to no one in Kindergarten, and have had limited social success since.

I did experience a few instances of verbal bullying starting from about 6th grade through 9th grade, but I've always felt this was a r*esult* of my social anxiety rather than the cause. I was already quiet and withdrawn and that point, and it made me an easy target.

I feel like a lot of what makes me feel immature or childish sometimes is that I just haven't had the hundreds/thousands of interactions and experiences that most people have had by the time they hit their 30's (And the learning through trial and error that results). I've spent a lifetime avoiding those interactions, long before anything such as verbal bullying occured.

Often when I'm sitting in a room full of other adults and they are having a discussion, I sometimes feel child-like sitting there, because quite often they are discussing things I haven't experienced due to avoidance. And on top of that, my confidence is low because I keep thinking "look at these people, they all have been practicing their social skills for 20-30 years, how can anything I say here have any relevance compared to them, I'll have to fake it just to chime in?". So again, I feel like these feelings and thoughts are a result of my SA, not the cause.

And much like another post stated, I feel like I had a fairly normal upbringing. My parents were loving (not overprotective). My parents and my siblings are all very outgoing people. And despite often feeling child-like inside, I've still managed to accomplish a lot of adult things in my life such as college, professional jobs and a girlfriend.

I guess I would be interested to know specifically how you all feel when you say you feel like a child? What exactly is going through your head in adult situations?


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## Pam

I'm starting to think that maybe the non-abusive childhood people were maybe born a little shy and then, in spite of having a good childhood and parents who treated them with respect and love, were still somehow deprived of something. Maybe that "something" was a push, extra encouragement and time (that your sinblings maybe didn't need) to get you to join in with things early in life, be more social, etc. 

IDK because I come from the other environment where it was clear that I was MADE to feel this way because of the abuse wearing you down and destroying me. 

I used to think ALL problems were caused by trauma of some kind. Not until meeting people here on SAS and seeing that we can end up feeling similar and having similar problems that forced me to try to imagine another way it could happen. I've had a hard time understanding or I should say relating to people who had good childhoods. It's almost like I don't know what to say to them! Lol. But I've asked questions and I see we do feel similar so it's not impossible to relate to each other. 

So, what does everyone think that had a "good" or non-abusive childhood think about maybe your parent should have gone out of their way a little for you and pushed a little harder. I dont' mean in a bad way. I just mean, if for example you had a hard time joining in with other kids in kindergarten playing kickball or some other group activity, maybe they could've held your hand and gave you pep talks to the point where you could join in over time, maybe in baby steps. And then by the time your were older, it was more natural and would'nt have developed into full-blown SA?


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## jook

JEFF, for me it's not so much what as going through my head as it is feelings -the operative term in arrested emotional development is "*emotiona*l" which indicates feelings. The first thing that comes to mind for me is feeling self-conscious, as though my every move or word is being evaluated. - This is probably true for most if not all people with SA but more normal during adolescence than in adulthood.

With regards to trauma in childhood, this is not always indicative of acts inflicted on you directly by parents or others. It can be anything that the child found traumatic even before the age of reasoning as in being separated from parents by being left with a babysitter before a child is emotionally ready for that. Or being extremely frightened by something. It could be almost anything that causes a child nervous stress which can be something even that another child would not have found stressful. It's very specific to each individual. For some children it could even be Santa Claus! . There could be repeated exposure to the stress stimulus or only one instance that was extremely overwhelming. Hope this makes sense.


----------



## Jeff

Pam said:


> So, what does everyone think that had a "good" or non-abusive childhood think about maybe your parent should have gone out of their way a little for you and pushed a little harder.


This thought has crossed my mind. It's hard to say, they did encourage me from time to time to try to get more socially involved, but they never pushed me to be someone I wasn't. I'm not sure they were ever aware of just how withdrawn I was during school. I've never even told them about my SA to this day.

I've heard a lot of people say on this forum that parents pushing them too hard to be social actually led to their social anxiety. So I really have no idea what the right approach is to take for a parent.


----------



## Jeff

jook said:


> JEFF, for me it's not so much what as going through my head as it is feelings -the operative term in arrested emotional development is "*emotiona*l" which indicates feelings. The first thing that comes to mind for me is feeling self-conscious, as though my every move or word is being evaluated. - This is probably true for most if not all people with SA but more normal during adolescence than in adulthood.


I can relate to what you are saying, but one can feel self-conscious without feeling like a child inside. I guess I'm just trying to get at what exactly makes these emotions make you feel 'child-like'?



jook said:


> With regards to trauma in childhood, this is not always indicative of acts inflicted on you directly by parents or others. It can be anything that the child found traumatic even before the age of reasoning as in being separated from parents by being left with a babysitter before a child is emotionally ready for that. Or being extremely frightened by something. It could be almost anything that causes a child nervous stress which can be something even that another child would not have found stressful. It's very specific to each individual. For some children it could even be Santa Claus! . There could be repeated exposure to the stress stimulus or only one instance that was extremely overwhelming. Hope this makes sense.


Yeah it makes sense, not sure I'm convinced, but I'm open to the idea that it's possible. Perhaps the initial cause makes no difference, if we all feel this way, what do we do about it?


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## typicalanimal

yeah... when I was growing up there were a couple of well-meaning adults such as in student accommodation or teachers etc. who tried to push me into being more social. Those people were the stuff of nightmares!!! Some people are just different, that's what makes life interesting. 

I gave people many opportunities to be my girlfriend or ordinary friend and people weren't interested. There's no prestige or award in having friends, it's not an accomplishment. If you think it is then there's something very wrong with you. And that's what I've been seeing a fair bit of around here, people who think it's a badge of honor... must be very sad, vacant people.


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## pinkkeith

I have a difficult time opening up in my therapy sessions. I am emailing my therapist, and telling her my thoughts after the session was over. It is more comfortable to express myself in writing then to talk to her verbally. 

Lately, she has been giving me homework where I have to write out a response to a question or topic she wants addressed. I then have to read that to her the following time I'm in session with her. 

After the session I had with her last week, I emailed her again to follow up on things I couldn't say to her at the time. She replied that she wants me to eventually write these comments down and share them with her during the next session. I was pretty upset about that. In addition to being more comfortable communicating with her via email, it was also nice to get something in my inbox from her that made me feel loved and accepted. 

My initial response to my emotional reaction was to refuse to do the homework she gave me. It wasn't until last night that I realized just how childish of an emotional reaction that was. Not only that, but there was also that automatic negative thought that I had after learning she wanted to do that. I was feeling that she didn't care about me and then my reaction was fine, I won't do what she wants me to do. How juvenile is that?! 

Like I said, I just came to this realization last night. Thinking more positively, I understand that she is just trying to push me out of my comfort zone. Not because she doesn't care about me, but rather just the opposite. She's doing because she cares about me. Now I'm kind of upset with myself. I don't know if I can get the homework done by tonight in time for my next session with her tomorrow. I'm also thinking that this something I really ought to share with her.


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## timidSeal

pinkkeith said:


> She's doing because she cares about me. Now I'm kind of upset with myself.


Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems not a good idea to think of your therapist in terms of caring/not caring about you. I think one of the advantages to the therapist is there's no emotional investment in a relationship. They are impartial and non-judging. They do their job by doing what they think will help you with your issues. I don't mean that they don't care, they do, just not in the sense that they have an emotional stake in how you respond to them in the same way that a friend would. (but I guess I'm being a bit off-topic...and maybe I'm wrong...)


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## the collector

Sounds like BS OP. Social Anxiety is Arrested Emotional Development". I have never heard or read that before.It is a way people try to make you believe SAD doesn't exist.


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## the collector

noscreenname said:


> This might be true for certain type of people but I feel I am emotionally arrested because of my SA I don't have SA because I am emotionally arrested.
> 
> I wouldn't trust someone who says this right off the bat without actually getting to know you and your history.
> 
> PS Drop the "online therapist" and save up your money to see someone qualified.


This!!!!!
And, I can relate.


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## jook

the collector said:


> Sounds like BS OP. Social Anxiety is Arrested Emotional Development". I have never heard or read that before.It is a way people try to make you believe SAD doesn't exist.


*COLLECTOR* you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But then no one had ever heard or read that the world was round until it was discovered that it was.

If this possibility doesn't work for you then by all means follow your own ideas about what does. Thank you for your opinion.


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## pineapplebun

I really like this thread, some really insightful posts. I have nothing to add and I'm not 30 but I wanted to save this to read more in depth later.


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## Jeff

Jeff said:


> I can relate to what you are saying, but one can feel self-conscious without feeling like a child inside. I guess I'm just trying to get at what exactly makes these emotions make you feel 'child-like'?
> 
> Yeah it makes sense, not sure I'm convinced, but I'm open to the idea that it's possible. Perhaps the initial cause makes no difference, if we all feel this way, what do we do about it?


Jook, I'm still wondering about your thoughts on my above questions. While I am skeptical, I'm certainly not dismissive of this concept, as there have been a lot of people on this forum over the years who have stated they feel 'child-like' inside. I think you're getting some strongly worded responses in this thread because the idea sounds a little scary to some people. At least with Social anxiety disorder there are specific treatments in place, but with AED most people on here wouldn't even know where to start.


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## Pam

I believe we can end up feeling the same or similar ways from different causes. I totally understand what you said, Jeff, about the bullying happening as a RESULT rather than as a cause of SA. I can imagine how it worked that way.

I do think knowing the cause is essential in knowing what to do about it/how to help oneself change. (Im only saying it and thinking about it now because you asked, lol) I do inner child work. I have PTSD tho and know that my SA is caused by, and tied to, traumas. I honestly don't know if inner child work would help someone who had a "good" childhood. I have no real evidence of it, so I won't claim it would help you feel different and have less anxiety. It works for me because I was abused and have extremely low self-esteem, which in turn causes me to have bad anxiety around people. I may have been born shy, but SA and panic attacks in social situations is definitely not a natural thing we are born with. That was environmentally caused.

An example of feeling "child-like" for me was when I was in college at 29 geting BA in Psychology. Intellectually I did fine--got almost all straight As. But emotionally, I could barely stand being there each day.

PHYSICALLY, i was sweating really bad, would smoke as many cigarettes as I could to try to calm down, avoided people like the plague, had intestinal discomforts, breathing hard, almost like I was on the vrge of a panic attack all the time, etc.

But EMOTIONALLY, I felt self-conscious, like I didn't belong, that I wasn't as "mature" as the other students (who were all younger than me), scared, anxious, etc. I relate it to childlike because* i felt like I was a 5 yr old lost by herself in a crowd of strangers* I had the sensation that I was going to be trampled between classes and that everyone was sooo much taller than I was (not actually true). I felt like a child dropped into an adult situation that I as the child could not handle.

But people with bad PTSD also have flashbacks and can regress, so it may have been more intense because of that. I know people who are just really passive and mute as adults. They don't freak out like me.


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## Jeff

Pam said:


> I do think knowing the cause is essential in knowing what to do about it/how to help oneself change.


Pam, thanks for the post. You've had a rough go of it and I feel for you. One thing that struck me about everything you said was that so many of those symptoms/experiences sound like s.a.d. And I have to think that people such as myself are going to have a hard time telling the difference between s.a.d. and a.e.d. Like I said before, I often feel mentally like a teen rather than a 40 year old man, but I tend to lean toward 20+ years of social avoidance rather than something more complex as the cause of these feelings. However, I could be wrong. Personally, I just can't narrow this down to a specific event as my earliest memories contain feelings of social anxiety. Do you know of any books or literature that address a.e.d?


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## Pam

pinkkeith said:


> I have a difficult time opening up in my therapy sessions. I am emailing my therapist, and telling her my thoughts after the session was over. It is more comfortable to express myself in writing then to talk to her verbally.
> 
> Lately, she has been giving me homework where I have to write out a response to a question or topic she wants addressed. I then have to read that to her the following time I'm in session with her.
> 
> After the session I had with her last week, I emailed her again to follow up on things I couldn't say to her at the time. She replied that she wants me to eventually write these comments down and share them with her during the next session. I was pretty upset about that. In addition to being more comfortable communicating with her via email, it was also nice to get something in my inbox from her that made me feel loved and accepted.
> 
> My initial response to my emotional reaction was to refuse to do the homework she gave me. It wasn't until last night that I realized just how childish of an emotional reaction that was. Not only that, but there was also that automatic negative thought that I had after learning she wanted to do that. I was feeling that she didn't care about me and then my reaction was fine, I won't do what she wants me to do. How juvenile is that?!
> 
> Like I said, I just came to this realization last night. Thinking more positively, I understand that she is just trying to push me out of my comfort zone. Not because she doesn't care about me, but rather just the opposite. She's doing because she cares about me. Now I'm kind of upset with myself. I don't know if I can get the homework done by tonight in time for my next session with her tomorrow. I'm also thinking that this something I really ought to share with her.


I think it's normal to want and be able to believe that your therapist cares about you and how you're doing. I have felt the opposite many times and it will get in the way of anything good happening. They say it's the relationship between the client and therapist that is the most important factor in whether one gets help (rather than the actaul type of therapy or specific techniques)

I think you should tell your therapist about your realization. Not because it's wrong or messed up, but because it will definitely help her see what you are sensitive about and maybe you can figure out why, where that comes from, and also get help so it isn't so strong to the point of interfering with what you want to do.

Oh and as far as pushing you, it's like impossible for others to know where the line is. We have to tell them when they get close to crossing it. She can't know how you felt a little pressured if you don't tell her. And what's a lot of pressure to one person may be nothing to another. Some people REALLY need to be pushed, and then other people (like me) will get defensive right away as a first natural reaction--like "Don't tell me what to do!" because I'm sensitve to being overly controlled. Even when the person in the present isn't controlling at all.

I hope it went well with her. Oh and I used to go to every session with stuff written down that I wanted to say. I would forget if I didn't. But it also helps so I didnt have to talk completely off the cuff spontaneously. But now I can be spontaneous--got more comfortable.


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## Pam

Jeff said:


> Pam, thanks for the post. You've had a rough go of it and I feel for you. One thing that struck me about everything you said was that so many of those symptoms/experiences sound like s.a.d. And I have to think that people such as myself are going to have a hard time telling the difference between s.a.d. and a.e.d. Like I said before, I often feel mentally like a teen rather than a 40 year old man, but I tend to lean toward 20+ years of social avoidance rather than something more complex as the cause of these feelings. However, I could be wrong. Personally, I just can't narrow this down to a specific event as my earliest memories contain feelings of social anxiety. Do you know of any books or literature that address a.e.d?


Thanks!

As far as aed goes, I look at that term in a very, very general sense. I just can relate to people when they say they are stuck at around whatever age. I feel stuck at several different ages 5, 9, and 19. I don't know what to say about it. I kind of see almost every thing I've ever read in psychology to generally fit with being arrested at a younger emotional age. From Freud on. He thought people were stuck in oral, anal, or phallic stages. Erik Erikson has his 8 developmental stages--altho his go from birth up to elderly yrs, not just childhood. IDK if you know about these things already.

I don't know of any specific books about this (to me, most psych disorders and theories seem to have some kind of stunted growth in them). But I googled it for a minute and it does seem that people relate it to traumas, and "childhood wounds." But I think there must be another way/cause.

You said you think 20 yrs of avoidance is more of an influence than any childhood event? Maybe then for you Behavior Therapy would be good? Do you have certain beliefs that you know aren't really true, but can't shake them an they influence you anyway? Like they limit your behavior/make you avoid more. In that case, CBT might help you. Maybe you just need help continuing on the path that got interupted by your avoiding. And help with some of the things you think. You can do baby step behaviors and adjust your beliefs accordingly. Instead of "recovering from" a trauma or past damage, you can continue where you left off and "learn" or relearn things by lessening the avoiding and having new experiences.

Sorry if this was talking down to you. For all I know you are already in therapy, etc and know all this already!


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## Jeff

Pam said:


> Thanks!
> 
> As far as aed goes, I look at that term in a very, very general sense. I just can relate to people when they say they are stuck at around whatever age. I feel stuck at several different ages 5, 9, and 19. I don't know what to say about it. I kind of see almost every thing I've ever read in psychology to generally fit with being arrested at a younger emotional age. From Freud on. He thought people were stuck in oral, anal, or phallic stages. Erik Erikson has his 8 developmental stages--altho his go from birth up to elderly yrs, not just childhood. IDK if you know about these things already.
> 
> I don't know of any specific books about this (to me, most psych disorders and theories seem to have some kind of stunted growth in them). But I googled it for a minute and it does seem that people relate it to traumas, and "childhood wounds." But I think there must be another way/cause.
> 
> You said you think 20 yrs of avoidance is more of an influence than any childhood event? Maybe then for you Behavior Therapy would be good? Do you have certain beliefs that you know aren't really true, but can't shake them an they influence you anyway? Like they limit your behavior/make you avoid more. In that case, CBT might help you. Maybe you just need help continuing on the path that got interupted by your avoiding. And help with some of the things you think. You can do baby step behaviors and adjust your beliefs accordingly. Instead of "recovering from" a trauma or past damage, you can continue where you left off and "learn" or relearn things by lessening the avoiding and having new experiences.
> 
> Sorry if this was talking down to you. For all I know you are already in therapy, etc and know all this already!


I didn't feel you were talking down at all. I am aware of it, just very bad at sticking with it. For some reason cbt gets me really down, so doing it long term has been a problem. For me, my path really never got interrupted, I was just never on a good path to begin with, or if I was, I was too young to remember it. I will try to look into a.e.d. more though as it's a fascinating concept that could apply to my situation.


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## jook

Jeff said:


> Jook, I'm still wondering about your thoughts on my above questions. While I am skeptical, I'm certainly not dismissive of this concept, as there have been a lot of people on this forum over the years who have stated they feel 'child-like' inside. I think you're getting some strongly worded responses in this thread because the idea sounds a little scary to some people. At least with Social anxiety disorder there are specific treatments in place, but with AED most people on here wouldn't even know where to start.


*JEFF*, in response to the questions you are referring to:

Q1: _I can relate to what you are saying, but one can feel self-conscious without feeling like a child inside. I guess I'm just trying to get at what exactly makes these emotions make you feel 'child-like'?_

A: The feelings we have as a result of SA are feelings that anyone could have without SA. I think the difference, and what makes it more immature, is the degree. Sure a "normal" adult might feel self conscious in any given situation. What makes this emotional response to social stimuli clinical or not is the degree or intensity of these emotions. IMO, the level of self-consciousness experienced by people with SA, the degree of being overly concerned with how other's view them, (am I saying the right thing, do they like me, am I boring, am I fitting in) is more an adolescent response than the response of a fully mature adult.

But we're just talking about one possible feeling (self-consciousness) when there can be any number of "arrested" responses. For instance, feeling like "nobody likes me" when in a social situation. Or even the feeling that being un-liked is unbearable. If you're, say, 12 years old, being overly concerned that you're not liked and feeling like that's the worst thing in the world, well then that's understandable at that level of development. And having these types of feelings may be indicative of a person being stuck along the developmental spectrum at that age.

Q2:_Yeah it makes sense, not sure I'm convinced, but I'm open to the idea that it's possible. Perhaps the initial cause makes no difference, if we all feel this way, what do we do about it?_

A: If AED is in fact a major component of SA then knowing this would make a difference, because it frames the disorder in a whole new way and may allow for more effective treatment. As far as what can we do about it. Well, just becoming aware of this as a possibility had a positive effect on me. I am more able to dismiss thoughts and feelings that I identify as coming from the place where I got stuck. (i.e., "nobody likes me"/ response: that's coming from my 12yo emotions so I can recognize it but not feel I have to react to it). So in some ways considering this possibility (AED) has liberated me. But beyond self-help, there are therapist who work directly with adults who are developmentally stuck, though not specifically for SA as far as I know. We may be spearheading a new treatment modality for SA right here in this thread. Intuitively, for several people who've posted AED makes sense. And why wouldn't it? Many people with SA can pin-point trauma in their childhood and it's known that trauma can definitely result in arrested development. And trauma could come from just being born overly sensitive and having trouble adjusting to normal situations like going to school and being bullied because you're "different" to start with.

I hope I've answered your questions good enough.


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## timidSeal

_*Pam*_, thank you for all your comments. You are very insightful and it sounds like you have put a lot of work into yourself (therapy, etc). You do not sound like a child, you sound very mature. You are an inspiration that things can get better.
First, I want to say that I feel like a child more in the way *jook* describes it than _*Pam*_'s description (feeling physically shorter, etc). Second, I think I don't just feel like a child, but my behavior is child-like and supports that feeling. I'm not referring to the anxiety behaviors as jook describes, but things like how I speak and write like an akward 11 year old who hasn't matured to be able to express themselves well, how I dress, how I procrastinate like a stubborn 11 year old, how I speak quietly so that others can't even hear me, that I've been in therapy for over 3 years (this time) and feel like I've barely made progress (like I'm stuck as a child and not addressing the adult things?).
I'm finding this whole discussion confusing since it's not really things I've thought much about before. But very interesting. When I tried to find information on inner child work, it seems there's different ways to do it and that was also confusing to me. I follow the blog of one online therapist who does mostly CBT but also inner child work and I liked the way he described his method. It involved drawing with the left hand (child) and asking questions with the right hand (adult). This makes sense to me (not sure why) and sounds like something that would help me. 
Anyways, this discussion is making me feel that I need to "grow up" and be an "adult" and that will help with a lot of my SA and depression. From that perspective, I would agree with *jook* that maybe addressing this in treatment of SA is a good idea for the future.


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## Jeff

Jook, thanks for the response. I like what you said about how it can helpful just being aware that these thoughts are childish. I can definitely see how that could help. I think for me I would need to take that a step further and try to disprove them so that I truly _believed_ they are irrational thoughts. Similar to Dr. Richards approach of addressing the automatic negative thoughts.

I think a lot of these issues, whether they stem from s.a.d. or a.e.d.,really boil down to one's self confidence / self image. I was thinking a lot about this morning and realized just how artificial the human ego really is. I think for most people it's something we create, shape and grow simply by what we tell ourselves and whether or not we believe what we are telling ourselves. Perhaps many of us with sad/aed just have a harder time believing our own rational thoughts. Speaking for myself, I know my self confidence can vary quite a bit just from changes in my social environment from year to year. Anyway, I got off on a tangent here, just thinking out loud.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, I'll try to keep tabs on this thread.


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## Pam

timidSeal said:


> _*Pam*_, thank you for all your comments. You are very insightful and it sounds like you have put a lot of work into yourself (therapy, etc). You do not sound like a child, you sound very mature. You are an inspiration that things can get better.
> First, I want to say that I feel like a child more in the way *jook* describes it than _*Pam*_'s description (feeling physically shorter, etc). Second, I think I don't just feel like a child, but my behavior is child-like and supports that feeling. I'm not referring to the anxiety behaviors as jook describes, but things like how I speak and write like an akward 11 year old who hasn't matured to be able to express themselves well, how I dress, how I procrastinate like a stubborn 11 year old, how I speak quietly so that others can't even hear me, that I've been in therapy for over 3 years (this time) and feel like I've barely made progress (like I'm stuck as a child and not addressing the adult things?).
> I'm finding this whole discussion confusing since it's not really things I've thought much about before. But very interesting. When I tried to find information on inner child work, it seems there's different ways to do it and that was also confusing to me. I follow the blog of one online therapist who does mostly CBT but also inner child work and I liked the way he described his method. It involved drawing with the left hand (child) and asking questions with the right hand (adult). This makes sense to me (not sure why) and sounds like something that would help me.
> Anyways, this discussion is making me feel that I need to "grow up" and be an "adult" and that will help with a lot of my SA and depression. From that perspective, I would agree with *jook* that maybe addressing this in treatment of SA is a good idea for the future.


Thanks timidseal! I should have described it better tho--I felt shorter in college because part of me was regressing to 5 yrs old because that's when my first trauma happened. I didn't go around feeling shorter than people 24-7. Just when I was overwhelmed with anxiety. Mainly in crowds. But I don't feel that way anymore because I healed that 5 yr old and she isn't scared like that anymore, so she doesn't "come out" or interfere negatively in my life.

That guy who you follow online sounds interesting. I personally have found CBT to be nothing but a simple bandaid where I need reconstructive surgery, lol! So he mixes it with Inner child stuff? That would be interesting to see. From what you wrote I just hope he doesn't have the right hand adult try to just tell the left hand child "not to feel that way becuase it's not logical or rational." That would be kind of punitive, which is the exact opposite of what I do with my inner children's feelings. I completely accept and empathize. Anyway, I will google it and see when I have a chance. I am very interested to see how that combination works.

I really like how you said "that makes sense to me" and "not sure why". When things don't make sense, but you feel drawn to it anyway, I think that's a huge sign you should try it! Maybe your inner child wants to do it and you could let her try it and see what happens! Not everything has to be planned out and logical ahead of time. Most of what's helped me isn't. I say you should try it!

I see what you mean about how your personality in general is affected, like your writing style (I assume you meant your handwriting? because you write fine on here) or your voice being so soft. My boyfriend has similar traits like that and has gotten less passive and more noticeable over the years. So maybe there is no big trauma in your life that caused you to feel how you do, but maybe since you are attracted to the inner child stuff, you could try it anyway? Maybe the 11 yr old has some feelings she wants to talk about and maybe it will help you feel more confident. Like maybe she's the one making you speak too softly. IDK. I bet it can work for non-traumatized people too. (and it isn't to try to make yourself into something you're not--it's to feel better about and to just be who you already ARE)

PS. just in general on this thread, I sometimes get the feeling that people are maybe "scolding" themselves and I don't like that. (Of course I could be reading into it and misunderstanding people), but using words like grow up, be an adult, immature, dismiss thoughts and feelings, and childish all sound kind of negative and self-shaming to me. But (from my pov) my inner children are* exactly* how they are *supposed* to be--young, immature, and possibly hurt or damaged. I cannot force a 5 yr old to grow up and be as mature as a college student. What I CAN help her with are feelings that she still had from the past that needed healing (the stuck part of me, traumatized).

So to sum it up in one sentence--I did inner child work with part of myself at 5 so she could finish grieving and get all her feelings out about my mother dying. (part of me definitely was arrested then and was stuck at 5. Not all, just part) This actually created a bond between she and I (made me feel more whole) and so now, she isn't a scared crying little girl--she's a happy healthy little girl. Still a little girl, but she lives inside me and is happy and calm. She doesn't act out and cause me to act crazy or overly sensitive anymore *because I healed her*. How--by letting her express herself and be heard. Have her feelings be totally accepted, and not telling her how she should feel or trying to "change" her. She just changed on her own. Of course this took a long time, but I could feel that I was changing along the way, so I knew it wasn't a waste of time for me, lol. I kept doing it until it felt right and now Im starting with my 9 yr old self. That's the one who has more feelings that would be related to rejection and SA.


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## timidSeal

Pam, you can read his description here: http://boundariesofthesoul.com/2013/11/01/access-your-inner-child-to-heal-your-past-and-present/

I do not feel like I am "scolding" myself, just trying to understand myself and find some solutions. I don't mean to "grow up" in a bad way, not in the scolding way that it can be used. I think that would be good if I could figure out how to see things in an "adult" way, because feeling like a child is not really working well. This is new to me to think in terms of child/adult feelings/behavior. I also don't think that would happen overnight, rather a goal to work towards.


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## jook

*PAM* wrote:..._just in general on this thread, I sometimes get the feeling that people are maybe "scolding" themselves and I don't like that. (Of course I could be reading into it and misunderstanding people), but using words like grow up, be an adult, immature, dismiss thoughts and feelings, and childish all sound kind of negative and self-shaming to me._

PAM, I think the problem you're having comes from:

1)the limitations of language particularly when trying to draw out something new that doesn't already have it's jargon in place. I use terms like "childish", and "immature" knowing that some people will balk at this but not knowing any other way to say what I'm trying to say. Maybe you can take a sentence where these terms or used and give examples of how you would say it.

2) Secondly, when you hear those terms perhaps you place your own value judgment on them as being negative. To me they're not negative at all. They just are what they are.

But again, in terms of negative valuation of a word/term/phrase, it's like when someone says to a little boy, "You're acting like a girl" and he becomes upset. The question is what does he think about "girlish" behavior that makes that a negative. Most likely he's been taught that little boys are not supposed to act like little girls. I never say that I should not think/feel like a child. I just say that I sometimes do. And when I do, I *dismiss* those thoughts/feelings as coming from a childish place that I don't need to over-react to as an adult.

"Dismiss" is another term (according to your PM) you had some trouble with. And thinking about it, dismiss might not be the best word to use. I think you're reading that as suppress or devalue. That's not what I mean. What I mean is I am able to dismiss the* intensity* of the thought/feeling thus lowering the anxiety I may be feeling particularly surrounding an impending social event. So with that being said, instead of *dismiss*, a more adequate word might be* defuse. *I can understand the problem you were having with that since you can't usually just dismiss thoughts, and definitely not feelings. If you shut them out the front door they just sneak in the back, lol. So I was being a little sloppy with my language there and you, being the excellent snoop that you are,:b called me on it. But prodding me to explain helped me to gain some clarity for myself as well. So thanks!


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## jook

^...and I also want to add, defusing in that manner can be very useful in the immediate. In the long run, I still think to really get at the root of those traumatized child processes, the inner child work you have described can be very effective.


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## timidSeal

jook said:


> To me they're not negative at all. They just are what they are.


_- this is what I was meaning also._



jook said:


> ^...and I also want to add, defusing in that manner can be very useful in the immediate.


_- I find this helpful also. accepting yet distancing_


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## Pam

Jook and TimidSeal--I'm glad you aren't meaning any of that in a self-critical way. I can definitely see how all of those words can be used innocently. I know my interpretation is mixed in with my experience and that might not be anyone else's so I'm glad I asked.

A short colorful example of something in my life where I've heard the phrase "grow up!" was kind of a strong memory like it was yesterday. One of my grandmothers died, and 3 days later, when we getting ready to leave my other grandmother's house (who is a narcissist) and go to the funeral, I started weeping again and said in a sad & quiet voice, "Oh what's the point of having a family if they are all gonna die anyway." So my other grandmother says in a disgusted nasty tone, "Oh, grow up!" (because I was crying and you aren't allowed to do that in my family when someone dies, or if you do, it's only on the day it happened and then you are supposed to just get over it, thus my unfinished grieving from when I was 5) I was 23 at the time, but I still was very offended and hurt by her comment. It was so cold. Other of her favorite phrases were snap out of it, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and people who were suicidal or went thru with it were "weak." I think I come from a family of Nazis, lol.

Not only do I not want people to go around criticizing themselves, I also didn't want anyone to think that inner child work is about recognizing the inner child(ren) and then pooh-poohing their feelings like "oh that's just how I used to feel." Parts of me still feel the same and that's why I try to help them. You know, like you would with a real child's feelings.

I also sometimes misunderstand because this is all in black and white. I am much better if I can see body language and hear tone of voice :b

So to your #1, "limitations of language"--that's a good reason. And honestly I just reread a few pages and I can't find a sentence now that I would reword. (Maybe that's good, lol).

And #2, yes, I think I was projecting my PTSD experiences onto things. Some of those words or phrases were used differently with me in a mean way for years and I internalized them and my internal critic uses them against me/am haunted by them. Not as bad as when I was younger, but still there. I was worried others might be doing the same thing, but I guess not. Especially if they weren't abused. Grrr, I guess I just can't relate to anyone who wasn't abused.....Like I don't know WHY a person would get stuck in an earlier stage emotionally, if absolutely nothing happened at that point in their life! I really would like to know--it's a mystery to me!

I like "defuse"! That's totally different. I heard that word when learning/reading about treating borderlines. I can relate to them, with the extremely unstable emotions.

And when you say,* "And when I do, I dismiss those thoughts/feelings as coming from a childish place that I don't need to over-react to as an adult."* I KNOW what you are saying, but unfortunately, I personally am not able to do that. I have looser defenses, or not as much self-control, etc. I actually WILL react. I mean, I'll TRY not to, but it does come out at least a little. Then I make a fool of myself for a minute and then have to explain myself to others and then everything's ok, lol. Basically I can't control my emotions at all, but since I've done inner child writing since 2006 I think it was, the emotions themselves are gradually lessening!

*"If you shut them out the front door they just sneak in the back, lol." * Lol, this is my life! This is so true! :clap

And Timid Seal thank you for the link--I will definitely look at it!


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## Pam

timidSeal said:


> Pam, you can read his description here: http://boundariesofthesoul.com/2013/11/01/access-your-inner-child-to-heal-your-past-and-present/.....


Wow, this a great description and sounds VERY similar to what I do. I thought you meant that they said to use BOTH hands, like that they would talk to each other, but I got it now, lol. I too use my left hand to get straight to those feelings. I'm following him too and now I'll have to look up the woman he referred to--Lucia Cappacchione. Thanks for the info! :yes


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## timidSeal

I had a great discussion with my therapist about inner child therapy and feeling like a child and stuff related. It seems he's not a fan of the "stuck" as a child idea because he feels that gives a sense of powerlessness. If I understood him right. So I would gather the whole arrested development thing is not something he agrees with. And he said there's a lot of quackiness out there concerning inner child therapy, but also some good. He said to be careful not to get to the point where I am seeing the child(ren) as different ppl than myself because they are really me. Some good things I took away from the discussion are that I hadn't realized that a part of my feeling like a child is feeling powerless and hopeless. And a part of my feeling like a child comes from thinking that once I can behave more extroverted, I'll be grown up. He says being introverted is not pathological and it seems he really wants me to accept and embrace that I am introverted. (note to self: maybe this would reduce some of my anxiety).


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## TiredTracy

There was once this little girl, who could not wait to grow up. She asked her grandmother to tell her a secret that only grownups know. Grandma whispered in her ear, "There is no such thing as a grownup." 

I don't know if that sentiment is true or not though.


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## Pam

timidSeal said:


> I had a great discussion with my therapist about inner child therapy and feeling like a child and stuff related. It seems he's not a fan of the "stuck" as a child idea because he feels that gives a sense of powerlessness. If I understood him right. So I would gather the whole arrested development thing is not something he agrees with. And he said there's a lot of quackiness out there concerning inner child therapy, but also some good. He said to be careful not to get to the point where I am seeing the child(ren) as different ppl than myself because they are really me. Some good things I took away from the discussion are that I hadn't realized that a part of my feeling like a child is feeling powerless and hopeless. And a part of my feeling like a child comes from thinking that once I can behave more extroverted, I'll be grown up. He says being introverted is not pathological and it seems he really wants me to accept and embrace that I am introverted. (note to self: maybe this would reduce some of my anxiety).


Let me guess--your counselor is a CBT therapist. Sounds like it anyway.

If a person is stuck, they're stuck. It wasn't a choice. But it also doesn't mean they have to stay stuck forever, (altho some people do). If part of your feelings are arrested at a certain age, or you feel a sense of powerlessness, that's just how it is. Powerlessness is a valid feeling and isn't something you can "carefully avoid". I also know there are a lot of people with separate (to different degrees) ego states. But there are things you can do to help that inner person/feeling/ego state feel healthier, and have a sense of personal power. Hopefully he doesn't work with clients who have PTSD or DID or depression. I say depression because one of the most common feelings (and conscious thoughts) of depression is that sense of powerlessness. If someone feels that way, then the counselor should try to help them to not feel that way, not just say "don't feel powerless." As if you can control all your feelings....if that was possible we wouldn't be here on this site!

Self-acceptance is something I work on too. I work on accepting that I make mistakes, I don't have to be perfect, I'm not the nicest person on earth (and don't have to be), etc. That last one was hard for me because i used to worry about being rejected by everyone if I wasn't always compliant and made everyone else happy. "If I make everyone else happy, they won't reject me." is what I lived by before. And being rejected made me feel on the edge of suicide, so I _really_ had to make others happy to save myself! Ahhh, that probably doesn't make any sense...

...I have to say that having Little Pammy (who is stuck at 5/6 yrs old, and is separate enough that she has her own memories, feelings, thoughts, and points of view on things that happen even today, yet at the same time I know she's me from the past, but that past version of me exists here today inside me. She IS like a person, but coexists with 3 others, one being me the adult who keeps aging and isn't stuck..run on sentence) So anyway, having that part of myself feel more comfortable with herself so she could be free to play and speak up without "getting in trouble," etc (as a result of ICW) helped me the adult feel some genuine self-acceptance for the first time! In the past I tried to convince myself thru logic and debating and making arguments for it, but doing it that way, I just never believed it in my _*heart*_. Like I do now. I would never call something that life-changing, and actually life-_saving_, "quackiness". I've run across several CBTers that aren't very open minded about other therapies and theories, even when they work. They seem to only believe in one way and that way doesn't focus much on your feelings or the past.

A lot of people say they are introverted on here, and yeah, that's just a personality trait. There's nothing wrong with that. It does seem to be common with people with SA. Not me tho--I'm an extrovert trapped in a mind/body that has PTSD and SA!


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## Pam

TiredTracy said:


> There was once this little girl, who could not wait to grow up. She asked her grandmother to tell her a secret that only grownups know. Grandma whispered in her ear, "There is no such thing as a grownup."
> 
> I don't know if that sentiment is true or not though.


I like that for so many reasons--maybe the grandma is a fun person, or maybe it implies that we are never 'finished" or "done"--that we can always continue to grow and learn and improve and expand, etc. Also if it is true, then some of us who do feel like children in ways can feel better about it. Normalizes the feeling a bit.


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## timidSeal

As I've said before, I don't express myself well sometimes. Let me try to clarify.


timidSeal said:


> I had a great discussion with my therapist about inner child therapy and feeling like a child and stuff related. It seems he's not a fan of the "stuck" as a child idea because he feels that gives a sense of powerlessness. If I understood him right. _< I did not really understand at the time what he was getting at. But after thinking a lot about it, I think this might have been intended to be addressed to me specifically. He knows how powerless and worthless I feel, and how I have spent a lifetime attracted to things that will support my false beliefs that I am powerless and worthless.>_ So I would gather the whole arrested development thing is not something he agrees with. _<This may not be true given my new thoughts as stated above.>_ And he said there's *a lot* _<not ALL of it>_ of quackiness out there concerning inner child therapy, but also *some good* _<he was very clear that he thought it was helpful for some things>_. He said to be careful not to get to the point where I am seeing the child(ren) as different ppl than myself because they are really me. _<The following comments are about my specific case and not intended to refer to people in general with SA.>_ Some good things I took away from the discussion are that I hadn't realized that a part of my feeling like a child is feeling powerless and hopeless. And a part of my feeling like a child comes from thinking that once I can behave more extroverted, I'll be grown up. He says being introverted is not pathological and it seems he really wants me to accept and embrace that I am introverted. (note to self: maybe this would reduce some of my anxiety).





Pam said:


> Let me guess--your counselor is a CBT therapist. Sounds like it anyway. _<Yes, he is.>_
> 
> If a person is stuck, they're stuck. It wasn't a choice. But it also doesn't mean they have to stay stuck forever, (altho some people do). If part of your feelings are arrested at a certain age, or you feel a sense of powerlessness, that's just how it is. Powerlessness is a valid feeling and isn't something you can "carefully avoid"._<he did not say to avoid the feeling of powerlessness>_ I also know there are a lot of people with separate (to different degrees) ego states. But there are things you can do to help that inner person/feeling/ego state feel healthier, and have a sense of personal power_<yes, he would agree with this>_. Hopefully he doesn't work with clients who have PTSD or DID or depression_<I see him for depression>_. I say depression because one of the most common feelings (and conscious thoughts) of depression is that sense of powerlessness. If someone feels that way, then the counselor should try to help them to not feel that way, not just say "don't feel powerless."_<he did not say that at all. And he did spend a lot of time helping me to not feel that way, at least half of the appointment and we'll pick up from there next time.>_ As if you can control all your feelings....if that was possible we wouldn't be here on this site!
> 
> Self-acceptance is something I work on too. I work on accepting that I make mistakes, I don't have to be perfect, I'm not the nicest person on earth (and don't have to be), etc. That last one was hard for me because i used to worry about being rejected by everyone if I wasn't always compliant and made everyone else happy. "If I make everyone else happy, they won't reject me." is what I lived by before. And being rejected made me feel on the edge of suicide, so I _really_ had to make others happy to save myself! Ahhh, that probably doesn't make any sense...
> 
> ...I have to say that having Little Pammy (who is stuck at 5/6 yrs old, and is separate enough that she has her own memories, feelings, thoughts, and points of view on things that happen even today, yet at the same time I know she's me from the past, but that past version of me exists here today inside me. She IS like a person, but coexists with 3 others, one being me the adult who keeps aging and isn't stuck..run on sentence) So anyway, having that part of myself feel more comfortable with herself so she could be free to play and speak up without "getting in trouble," etc (as a result of ICW) helped me the adult feel some genuine self-acceptance for the first time! In the past I tried to convince myself thru logic and debating and making arguments for it, but doing it that way, I just never believed it in my _*heart*_. Like I do now. I would never call something that life-changing, and actually life-_saving_, "quackiness"_<as I said above, he did say it wasn't all quackiness and it could be helpful depending on how it was done>_. I've run across several CBTers that aren't very open minded about other therapies and theories, even when they work. They seem to only believe in one way and that way doesn't focus much on your feelings or the past._<he was very open and honest about his biases, what he believes, and also was very careful to thoroughly explain why he felt the way he did. This is something I am very appreciative of>_
> 
> A lot of people say they are introverted on here, and yeah, that's just a personality trait. There's nothing wrong with that. It does seem to be common with people with SA. Not me tho--I'm an extrovert trapped in a mind/body that has PTSD and SA!
> 
> _<It's wonderful that your inner child therapy has been so helpful to you. I am still interested in it and will continue to look into it. I'm sorry you have had such negative experience with CBT therapists. From what I've heard (from around here, my own research, and yes, from my therapist) CBT has a good track record of being helpful to people with depression. Which is what I am being treated for. My diagnosis of SA (lifelong SA) only came about recently since the focus has always been on my depression for some reason, most likely from me not talking about my anxiety since I have always been ashamed of it. Anyways, we are all a work in progress and in different stages of healing from our problems. We will each find different things that help us and that doesn't make things that others find helpful not good.>_


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## Pam

I guess I just had a problem with the word "quackiness" being used by a professional.

I don't know you or your situation so for all I know CBT would help you. There's an old book Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman that describes his CBT way of curing depression and helplessness and pessimism. I think it's great if a person can use it. It was fun to read too and I used the techniques in a handful of situations successfully, but as far as applying it to my PTSD it doesn't help. Other than that book, I personally have found the CBT and therapists to be damaging because the therapy and therapist were dismissive of my feelings that needed to be addressed and processed through, and the focus is so much on the present which ignores the problem which for me is rooted in past events. And they truly believe thoughts cause feelings. I think it can go either way, but *sometimes* your core beliefs are so wrapped up with emotions that you can't simply change them by changing your conscious thoughts. That's why some people who say they "have done CBT and it helped, but I feel worse lately because I haven't kept up with it." They blame themselves for it not working, but when something works, and changes you, it's permanent, not reliant on keeping up "exercises." It should be a gradual improvement, not all or nothing based on whether you do the homework stuff.

I see I deleted something in my other post which I should include now--I had said I'm starting to feel like I'm too messed up for this thread. and even website. It's obvious to me I should have switched to the PTSD site yrs ago, but I didn't because I had met too many nice people here and didn't want to have to start all over on another site. Because of this I guess I'm offended (triggered) by things sometimes and am also offensive to others with my strong opinions sometimes. I don't mean to hurt anyone personally if I do. I actually care about people getting better. I do have strong opinions on what works, but if someone tells me I'm wrong, I accept that too. I have tried to get people to explain how and what CBT has helped them with, behaviorally or mentally or with their feelings, and no one can ever give me an answer, so i don't believe it's that successful for others either, nevrmind me. (I've asked because I want to find out that I'm actually wrong, and that CBT is useful for something, but I haven't seen it.)

I feel like I get too pushy sometimes with what I think will help people. Sorry if I caused any trouble. I didn't mean to.


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## timidSeal

This latest round of therapy for me is over three years now. I've never been in therapy that long because I always felt better. I've never had exercises to do from therapy, except one time when my husband and I were going, we got communication exercises. Lol, that was hard!

I only feel like it's helping recently. I think the first three years were mostly looking at all my thoughts (and behaviors) that haven't worked for me. I think I'm ready now to start replacing those with ones that do work. It's a slow discovery process. With lots of thinking and trying things. What I like about my therapy is being able to identify thoughts that are irrational or unfounded instead of embracing them as "truth" as I have done. And done in the safety of the therapist office. Honestly, over the years, I have probably told my therapist a hundred times how worthless I feel. So it's getting to the point where it sounds silly to me to say it knowing every time we have a discussion and I can "see" (logically) how erroneous that belief is.

We don't replace those beliefs overnight, especially us older ppl who have held those beliefs for so long and don't know any different. And going through therapy and discovering or realizing or admitting that what you've been doing for so long doesn't serve you well is a very, very painful process that leaves you feeling empty and not sure who you are or what you believe. I really didn't even know if my therapist was any good or if it was me that was just so broke. I have to say, lately I'm leaning towards the latter. It brings me to tears just thinking about it... 

Strong opinions are not a bad thing. I think we need that to get better. You have to believe that what you are doing is right for you and will help you. But I also believe different ppl need different things and what works for one might not work for another. But I am no psychologist for sure and don't know that much about therapy and the different types.


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## timidSeal

I went back through this thread looking for links or books about inner child therapy and arrested development. Not much here, but I did realize that I missed a lot of good information and thoughts posted. I didn't take the time to read it all, so I will be spending some time in this thread reading.

If anyone has any more information (links or books) could you post it here? In the meantime I will look on the web for more information and maybe start with Pam's idea of writing letters.

I read this today, but not a lot of information on "how to" given: http://boundariesofthesoul.com/2013/11/19/loving-your-inner-child/


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## Pam

timidSeal said:


> I went back through this thread looking for links or books about inner child therapy and arrested development. Not much here, but I did realize that I missed a lot of good information and thoughts posted. I didn't take the time to read it all, so I will be spending some time in this thread reading.
> 
> If anyone has any more information (links or books) could you post it here? In the meantime I will look on the web for more information and maybe start with Pam's idea of writing letters.
> 
> I read this today, but not a lot of information on "how to" given: http://boundariesofthesoul.com/2013/11/19/loving-your-inner-child/


I know there are a lot of books on it, but the only ones I personally have looked at were John Bradshaw's *Homecoming* and Charles Whitfield's *Healing the Child Within*.

I always assume everyone knows who John Bradshaw is, but I saw a counselor who never heard of him and had to google his name. Don't know if that means I'm old or she was ignorant, lol. He used to be on Oprah back in the 1980s, I think, and later in the 1990s i actually got to "know" him from his own talk show and a book or 2. But back then i wasn't into inner child stuff at all--I just really liked how sensitive understanding, and nice he was. Anyway, I have his book Homecoming and I never finished reading it. I had already started writing myself, but what he describes is so similar. He has structured guidelines of what to do, and it's for all different ages. I never followed his directions all the way. I was under the impression he has you go through every yr, but I don't know if that's really necessary? IDK. And I heard/read that he did inner child workshops back in the day, but insurance wouldn't cover it, so it didn't last. But as far as I knew he was responsible for the term inner child.

The other book I don't remember reading, altho I did because there's underlining in it. Lol.

Sometimes I read about it and it just seems to go over my head, like it's just not very practical or I can't relate. But then I'll come across something, like in Homecoming, there was a short letter Little John wrote to John about hiding in a closet for years and could he come and get him? OMG, when I read that it was like 2 hot pokers stabbing me in the eyes (tears came so fast).

The link you have above--you're right they don't give you much info on how to do it. That's his website right? and he is kind of advertising it, bit not giving away the secrets, lol.

Another thing about the books is they are probably more geared toward people who had traumas, but maybe you could ignore that part because somehow people/children can end up (for example) feeling very insecure without any tragic event. I think the expression of those feelings from the arrested part's age is what heals. (as long as the feelings are being accepted/heard by either an adult version of you, or another person like a therapist. So that they aren't sitting alone having to deal with it by themselves) That way they get to have their say, *and* feel understood. Maybe that's ALL they need. If not, it could be a very good start to having them feel better/healthy. It seems to help undo the block or "arrested" point.

Anyway, those are 2 books, but I actually rely more on what I the adult and my little ones want to do. Sorry if I'm repeating myself here, but my little 5 yr old one wanted to write about her feelings about Mommy dying. I got here a special notebook for that. Once she started with it, she also on her own decide to write a note directly to Mommy telling her how mad she was that she left. But then she also made her a Happy Mother's Day picture too. She (I) never did anything like that. It turns out that that helped her/me finish the grieving process (that would be an emotionally arrested part for me--I never grieved for her at the time all the way because I figured out fast that I had to act happy to make sure no one would be mad at me). So that part was literally stuck there. I guess maybe someone else could've told me to do the what I ended up calling the "Mommy Project", but no one did. I just naturally felt the need to. I only saying that to show that if you feel urges to do something but no book or professional told you to, I still think it's a good idea to follow your own instincts. Then again the books can help give you ideas.

I am quite stuck with what to do with my 9 yr old self who is depressed and feels ugly, undeserving, worthless, trapped, not allowed to go out in the world. I have her do things and write, but I'm not making too much progress as far as feeling good about herself. So yeah, it's not all easy and smooth. But it is worth it when it works! I always kind of start out not really knowing if I want to be burdened with the old feelings (that they still have), but over time with the writing and getting to kknow those parts of myself, I actually love them now. (so I might not be able to go out in the world and do what ever i want, but internally, I finally like myself. I love my 5 and 9 and 19 yr old parts, shich I guess means I like myself more. The 9 yr old part is stuck with the horrible rejection feelings and I still have to help her with that, but she at least knows that I love her now and the 5 yr old likes her too.)

Whoa, didn't mean to write this much!


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## flight

I am finding some comfort in knowing I'm not the only older person who feels like a child. With that said, God help us all! I guess I had what you would call trauma in my childhood and I think I can trace the bulk of my SA back to one particular period, but I believe the seed was there at birth and just didn't really get watered and fertilized until that period. That period was at age 14/15. Got the shock of my life. Person I called Mama *was* mama, but person I called Daddy was not really daddy! OOPS! Mama been creeping. Biological father, who I will refer to as "he or him" from this point is the person who sprung this info on me (without even discussing it with my mother first). He lived in our community, went to the same church, etc. He and my mother were both married to other people and I came into existance under the false pretense of being my mother and fathers child and he was just another man in the community. My mother, during her final illness a few years ago, said, "It was one of those secrets that wasn't really a secret". And even if it was a secret at my birth, it ceased to be one once I reached my teens and looked just like *him*. My parents had a turbulent marriage and I witnessed domestic violence and lived with an overall sense of not really being safe though neither one of them ever abused me and in fact, treated me like the sun rose and set on me, their only child. But it was all a lie. They were all liars. Hope I'm not going on and on too long, so I'll wrap this up. Though I knew *I* had done nothing wrong in all of this infidelity, ****ery, and foolishness I still felt like a phony. Not so much a feeling of guilt, just phony. I mean, small neighborhood, the adults knew my story and probably told their children, who were my age, right? I felt like I was in a freaking glass case on display for everyone to see. Unlike some on this forum who have been abused in all kinds of ways, my experience was the opposite. I was always told by my parents that I was smart and full of potential and other kids also respected me. But no matter how great I was told I was, I felt like a phony and I still do.


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## Pam

flight said:


> I am finding some comfort in knowing I'm not the only older person who feels like a child. With that said, God help us all! I guess I had what you would call trauma in my childhood and I think I can trace the bulk of my SA back to one particular period, but I believe the seed was there at birth and just didn't really get watered and fertilized until that period. That period was at age 14/15. Got the shock of my life. Person I called Mama *was* mama, but person I called Daddy was not really daddy! OOPS! Mama been creeping. Biological father, who I will refer to as "he or him" from this point is the person who sprung this info on me (without even discussing it with my mother first). He lived in our community, went to the same church, etc. He and my mother were both married to other people and I came into existance under the false pretense of being my mother and fathers child and he was just another man in the community. My mother, during her final illness a few years ago, said, "It was one of those secrets that wasn't really a secret". And even if it was a secret at my birth, it ceased to be one once I reached my teens and looked just like *him*. My parents had a turbulent marriage and I witnessed domestic violence and lived with an overall sense of not really being safe though neither one of them ever abused me and in fact, treated me like the sun rose and set on me, their only child. But it was all a lie. They were all liars. Hope I'm not going on and on too long, so I'll wrap this up. Though I knew *I* had done nothing wrong in all of this infidelity, ****ery, and foolishness I still felt like a phony. Not so much a feeling of guilt, just phony. I mean, small neighborhood, the adults knew my story and probably told their children, who were my age, right? I felt like I was in a freaking glass case on display for everyone to see. Unlike some on this forum who have been abused in all kinds of ways, my experience was the opposite. I was always told by my parents that I was smart and full of potential and other kids also respected me. But no matter how great I was told I was, I felt like a phony and I still do.


Thanks for sharing your story. It makes perfect sense to ME why you feel like you do. And yeah, while nobody hit you and verbally abused you, having the "shock of your life" of course affected you. I see it like your foundation was shaken when you find out everything you believed was turned upside down and that it was all based on lies. So why wouldn't everything else that people told you or how they treated you, also be untrue, not to be trusted, etc. You lost your security in a way.

Also (maybe you already know this), witnessing domestic abuse/violence even if you aren't a direct victim, will also affect you, especially when you are a child witnessing it. So don't feel bad if you think it shouldn't affect you because no one actually did anything to you--yes they did--they lied and modeled violence to you which ended up making you feel unsafe and insecure. Even tho I'm in the group you mentioned in your post, I realize there are lots of things in people's environments that happen that are traumatic--even if it was unintentional and you are able to forgive them. Sometimes I think people try to brush it off because "well, at least i wasn't hit" or something like that, but other more "innocent" looking things can also genuinely hurt people. (of course you can always get better somehow, your past doesn't have to keep you down forever.  )


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## jook

*FLIGHT*, in my opinion you definitely fit the bill for childhood trauma, abuse and the subsequent development of social anxiety based on the things below that I pulled from your post


flight said:


> ...*at age 14/15. Got the shock of my life.* (trauma can be any incident that shocks the system to the point of overwhelm)
> 
> *My parents had a turbulent marriage and I witnessed domestic violence and lived with an overall sense of not really being safe though neither one of them ever abused me* (children witnessing domestic violence IS a form of child abuse)
> 
> *I felt like I was in a freaking glass case on display for everyone to see.* (This one really resonated with me. I had an event early in my childhood in which a "secret" about me was known and having everyone know made me feel like I was on display in the same way you describe. I also had a lot of shame in my case. Shame and humiliation is often at the root of social anxiety)
> 
> *Unlike some on this forum who have been abused in all kinds of ways, my experience was the opposite.* (Your parents may have been very loving but domestic violence is abuse to the children that witness it and can definitely be traumatizing


Thanks you for sharing this. It's a perfect example of how both trauma and abuse can be hidden in the fabric of our childhoods. And also that trauma is not always the result of something inflicted on us directlyor intentionally by our parents.


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## flight

*Pam & Jook,* thank you so much for your comments regarding my post. It's not often, matter of fact, never have I come in contact with anyone who understands me the way I have a feeling you do and I've probably seen two dozen psychiatrists, psychologists, and therapist over the years. I'm loving being a part of this group and that's big for me, because I can't think of any other group that I feel a part of. I always feel like I'm on the periphery. Sometimes I think we already understand our problems and why we have them, but if we don't know of anyone who can identify with our problems, it's easy to feel all alone in this world, even if we have people we know love us. I'm looking forward to future conversations and finding ways to live this life more comfortably!


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## Pam

*Flight* I'm glad to hear you feel understood by us here  . I hate hearing that you've seen so many professionals and had such bad luck. I have seen about 8 over the yrs and not had a whole lot of luck as far as feeling understood either. And I don't just mean for SA, I mean for much of anything. But i keep trying because I think I need others to heal all the way and feel a sense of belonging in the world. About my only contact with the "outside world" is here, and whatever counselor I happen to be seeing. If I had a job or in-person friends, I could feel bits of belongingness in more places and get better faster I'm sure.

I agree that a lot of us already understand ourselves, why we feel this way, etc. But I guess understanding ourselves isn't quite enough (well depending what the goal is or what you want to do). A lot of the time counselors seem to mistake my intelligence and insightfulness with I must be doing ok, when I'm not ok! IDK, I have so many misunderstandings, it's not funny. Makes me feel like I'm the one who doesn't know what's up. And needlessly causes self-doubt. Good for you if you have held yourself together despite not having good treatment. I personally tend to blame myself when it doesn't work. But that's because I re-live scenarios similar to my past. How did you feel about so many of them failing with you? If you don't mind me being nosy?


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## jook

*PAM* wrote:_ A lot of the time counselors seem to mistake my intelligence and insightfulness with I must be doing ok, when I'm not ok!_

*PAM* I have found this to be true too, and I also have not found counseling to be real effective. It's like they think because you understand the problem you know how to fix it, or even that you've already fixed it by understanding it...WRONG!

Therefore, I've concluded that having a bit of intelligence and insightfulness can actually impede therapy for the reason above.

But this is the therapists' failing. I felt like it was my fault to for being so gosh darn...smart! But actually I thik it's more a failing of the therapists. They're not insightful enough themselves to deal with a patient who is intelligent and insightful. They have to know how to get out of their own heads in order to take you out of yours! Insight comes from connecting empathetically to other human beings. The ability to do this is lacking more often than not among therapists, and I've gone through a few over the years myself.

*FLIGHT* So glad you have found a sense of belonging and being understood here. That is as basic a human need as eating and sleeping.


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## timidSeal

*PAM* wrote:_ A lot of the time counselors seem to mistake my intelligence and insightfulness with I must be doing ok, when I'm not ok!_

*JOOK *wrote: _PAM I have found this to be true too, and I also have not found counseling to be real effective. It's like they think because you understand the problem you know how to fix it, or even that you've already fixed it by understanding it...WRONG!

_I also have had this problem with therapists. This latest therapist seem to be ok (now). It always starts out with the response like "Wow, I'm surprised, you really have insight." Then it's like an Ok, we're done here attitude. With this last one (over three years together now) I initially had to remind him repeatedly how bad I was doing. I also remember some early on discussions about the difference between understanding something on an intellectual level (or logical or theoretical level) and actually believing it and making it useful on an emotional level. So I think that was the point where he got it maybe? I have had some real issues with this guy, this being one of them, but he seems very intelligent and it's almost as though he's learning along the way. He knows how bad I am doing, all he has to do is say the right thing and it brings me to tears (that I otherwise try not to let out) or shuts me down. It also took awhile for the anxiety to be brought up and huge strides have been made in our relationship since that. It's like we finally were on a track that I could see some benefit to the therapy sessions. (Anxiety is not his specialty so here again I think he has had to "learn" or pull from his education). It does seem that the attitude to therapy (maybe thanks to the insurance companies) is here ya go: 10 sessions, you're cured, see ya later. I clearly have been terminated from therapy because I was "doing so well" when I shouldn't have stopped.

*FALSEHOPE*, I would think having an overprotective parent would be a huge cause of adult anxiety. It's like you never get to learn yourself what is worth anxiety (dangerous situation) and what is not, since the parent decides for you that everything is fearful. I think that would be very traumatic for you if your parents divorced since your mom was so overprotective. You had to depend on her to control your "safety" and now that whole dynamic has changed. The stable protectors themselves fell apart.


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## jook

*FALSEHOPE* wrote:



FalseHope said:


> While *I didn't experience a traumatic event like many of you have*,(really??) I feel as though I am stuck as a child as well...I feel as though I got stuck at 12.
> 
> That was the time that I had to start attending a different school and I wasn't friends with anyone there... (changing schools)
> 
> My parents starting having marital troubles when I was in my early teenage years and ultimately ended up divorcing. (divorce)


Both changing schools and divorce can be extremely traumatic for a child. Changing schools or moving a lot is something I've seen a lot on this site. There also seems to be a strong correlation with these things happening around the ages of 4-5 or 12, crucial periods of development. I would love to do a poll of everyone on this site to see how many people would report unsettling events happening around these stages of development. It amazes me that such a strong correlation between social anxiety and childhood trauma exists and that connection has not been given any attention in the psychological community. Here's something general on CHT.

What is Childhood Trauma?


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## flight

Having others view intelligence to mean everything is smooth and easy, I get it! Several times, and not just with therapist, I've had people hint that I should be doing better than I am given my intelligence and other positives. It feels to me like I'm drowning and everyone I come in contact with is on dry ground looking at me and thinking I'm just playing! With pretty much every therapist I've seen, it came to a point when it was like, "there's really nothing else we can accomplish, you already have all the tools you need." But what good are the tools if you don't know how to use them? I do still feel like a teenager, but not in a good way. Difference being when I was a teen I could reason, "I have problems now, but I'm just a kid. I'll figure it out somewhere down the road." I'm *down the road* right now and I haven't figured it out yet!


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## timidSeal

*JOOK*, interesting observation. I moved at age 4 and I moved at age 13. At age 13 it was from small (tiny) midwest town to a foreign country. I was close with my small circle of friends and had definite plans for my future only to have it all taken away from me. Spiraled me into depression, my first. I don't remember age 4 seeming traumatic, although it probably was somewhat given my nature. I had anxiety before age 4 and I don't know how much the moves relate to my anxiety. I haven't really thought much about it before now though- something to ponder.


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## Pam

Jook--Thank you for your validating comments. It made my day yesterday to read that I'm not the only one who is misunderstood (making me feel like some anomaly, lol).
Also what a great article in your link! I hope everyone reads it.
And about trauma not being linked to SA in the professional community (I think that's what you said) I didn't know that! I only know for me personally, the way I see SA is it is a branch that is like an outgrowth off of the tree trunk of my main problems of PTSD and dissociative parts. I cannot separate SA from traumas in my life.

Flight--I was under the impression when I was growing up that I just had to survive until 18 and then my life would be better....yeah right, lol. Didn't exactly go that way.


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## Pam

TimidSeal-- _"I initially had to remind him repeatedly how bad I was doing. I also remember some early on discussions about the difference between understanding something on an intellectual level (or logical or theoretical level) and actually believing it and making it useful on an emotional level."_

I think I had the same problem with a past counselor when I was still very shy and so I didn't speak up like I do now and complain. I saw him for 4 yrs and I think he had no idea how bad I was really. I also have had counselors tell me "this shouldn't take too long" Lol!

A lot of the time I also cannot make a good emotional change just based on intellectual understanding (that's why I don't like CBT) and then even tho I KNOW there's nothing wrong with the way i feel, I still somehow end up feeling worse and like I'm disappointing them. I used to be really passive about it, but now I speak up and they of course don't like it. But I figure at least I'm saying what I really want to say, which is good for the SA, but maybe not so good for having a peaceful therapeutic relationship, which I also need to go well.


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## jook

timidSeal said:


> *JOOK*, interesting observation. I moved at age 4 and I moved at age 13..


*TIMID*, yeah, that is interesting that things happening around those ages can be very influential in how the rest of your life turns out. The American Pediatric Association refers uses the term 'Adverse Childhood Events' (ACES). I kind of like that term because it's not as loaded as the term 'childhood trauma'.



Pam said:


> Jook--... the way I see SA is it is a branch that is like an outgrowth off of the tree trunk of my main problems of PTSD and dissociative parts. I cannot separate SA from traumas in my life.


*PAM*, you've said this a few times and I get what you're saying. Most definitely SA is just one presentation of the effects of 'adverse childhood events (ACES) or trauma. I'm sure I can attribute my depression to it as well. I also think I have some attachment issues, all related to early trauma.



Pam said:


> A lot of the time I also cannot make a good emotional change just based on intellectual understanding (that's why I don't like CBT)


I get this too. I know I've supported CBT in previous posts and we've sort of bumped heads on this. I think your position is that it's totally useless and mine is that it can help some. I thought you might want to know that the founders of Acceptance and Commitment therapy agree with you. I was reading in my Acceptance and Commitment Therapy book "Partial or full return of anxiety following traditional CBT is more common than many of us would like to believe." In fact, the authors go on to say that ACT was created _because_ it became clear that challenging thoughts just wasn't getting it for most people.

I argue for CBT as a first quick step for getting out of the grip of social anxiety. CBT allows you to entertain that your thoughts may not be right. Even if denying the thoughts is next to impossible, it does give you that ounce of faith that perhaps the way you are viewing the world is erroneous, and that in itself can give some relief. But, I agree, it will not be enough to make significant long-lasting changes.


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## Pam

I don't remember specifically bumping heads with you Jook, but yeah I guess I wouldn't be surprised because I bump heads with everyone on that. I really should stop because it is mentally exhausting for me. I do think CBT is totally useless for me (that's a fact) and I imagine (so this is just my opinion) not good at curing anyone of actual disorders. Helping with everyday situations like "keeping a positive attitude" when going in for a job interview, but not for the person who can't even get to job interviews for yrs because of extreme panic. I believe it helps people with shallow and minor everyday problems.

The other thought I'm having is I wonder if "arrested emotional development" is like a stable (altho not desired) state of being, which would be completely different than PTSD. I am suddenly and unexpectedly "triggered" into extreme feelings by outside events an relive things all the time. Other people on this thread don't seem to do that at all. I'm not in control of whether I swicth, regress, or have a flashback. I have them and don't even know it sometimes. Also no one here talks about dissociation or feeling the need to get more integrated. So I guess I am different. There was one lady here that had DID and I related to her, but she left SAS a long time ago.


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## timidSeal

Pam, they just had a segment Sunday on 60 Minutes on veterans with PTSD. They explained some of the techniques they are using to help veterans. It seemed like maybe it was helping them, although I was thinking the short time in in-patient therapy might not be long enough. I don't remember how long it was, but they all seemed very grateful for the help and like they had made progress, but were definitely not "cured" or maybe not even ready to face the world again. For what it's worth, I thought you might be interested in chekcing out how they are approaching PTSD with veterans. It sounds like it's not a very easy thing to treat. It involved a lot of group work, which maybe was helpful to them in that they could all relate to each others experiences and not feel so alone.


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## Pam

TimidSeal--I just watched that segment online. Yes, I have always been able to relate to soldiers stories, especially Viet Nam vets because they were drafted against their will, thrown into it. And I know from the recent wars, the younger generation, more soldiers come home and kill themselves than died in combat. That was absolutely horrifying to me--I didn't believe it at first.

I have asked about PTSD groups and there aren't any here. My counselor had given me a packet of a list of self-help groups in the community--depression, eating disorders, MICA (Mentally Ill & Chemically Addicted), but nothing for PTSD. Then recently again I asked him do you know of any PTSD groups--that's what I need. He said did I give you that packet, and I said yes, there's nothing for it in there. And then that was it. I then said I guess the only place they have it is at the VA, but I can't go there. It makes me really mad when I hear stories of soldiers being made to feel weak or bad for wanting or needing help for PTSD, but then I also am jealous of them because at least they have somewhere to go and are taken seriously somewhere (the VA).

There's also another group I heard of but it's no where to be found here either--it is from a book I read several yrs ago--Adult Children Of Abusive Parents. THAT would be GREAT! I just don't know why there arent these groups--these are common things! And if I was over my SA I could try to start a group, but of course I won't, lol. 

There wasn't enough demonstration of the therapy for me to see how they changed (of course it was just a 20 minute segment). From what it showed, it looked like they were just beginning to share feelings. I'd like to know what exactly they do with the feelings, what does the therapist do with them, are they ever able to control flashbacks, etc. Anyway, I really prefer a mix of object relations, psychodynamically oriented, and supportive therapy. That approach helps stabilize me emotionally (aside from inner child stuff I can do on my own). But I definitely related to some of their feelings.


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## intheshadows

I'm really 30  And I feel stuck at 18.


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## krobar

*Hello...*

A lot of good opinions here. i've gotten some new things to think about. "arrested development" I never thought about it that way. There could be something to that. I find myself eager to please or impress someone and then not reacting to it very well if I don't get the response I want.


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