# Girls settling for guys they aren't sexually attracted to



## anomalous

How often do you think this happens?

If you're a girl, have you ever done it?

This issue is gravely concerning to me. I've noticed an alarming number of posts on SAS from well-meaning women who flippantly describe seeing their current S/O as being a "great guy" but not that attractive. Or, perhaps, they'll describe how other men in their lives attract them much more strongly, but they remain in a relationship with someone they find less attractive for stability or whatever other reason.

To be honest, I fear this situation much more than flat-out rejection. The reasons for this are:

(a) it *seems* to me that it happens rather often
(b) it happens disproportionately to guys who are considered "nice," "sweet," "loyal," etc., which would probably best describe me

In a way, it already happened to me once. I was in a sort-of relationship with a girl a few years ago, and after it ended, there were various indications that she'd never really seen me as more than a friend with whom she was willing to "try" being more just for the hell of it (specifically, things she said to mutual friends, as well as the difference in how she treated her new BF). Before I'd met her, I was extremely confident no woman would ever find me attractive; a reasonable assumption, given my extremely poor social skills and unquestionably below-average appearance. She gave me this burst of hope, and when I later found out how she'd really felt, it left my self-esteem even worse off than before it all began. It's been five years, and I still haven't really recovered from the blow, despite not missing her as an individual at all anymore.

If you're a guy, feel free to post any experiences you've had with this issue and how you reacted to them.


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## anomalous

Also, perhaps I should try to explain why this bothers me so much.

I just can't think of anything more demeaning and emasculating than giving my trust to a girl who (unbeknownst to me) cringes at the thought of physical intimacy, but puts up with me anyway because I'm "sweet." I self-identify as a nice guy, and yet I think I'd much rather be with a girl who has a strong raw sexual attraction to me and just a so-so emotional connection than vice-versa.

God, the thought of a girl laying in bed with a fake half-smile as we do the deed, managing not to vomit only by closing her eyes and picturing some taller, more confident jackass from work... almost makes me suicidal. It's depressing to an extent that transcends words, and to think it's happening to quite a few blissfully-ignorant guys around the world as we speak... just wow.

Do any other guys feel the same way? Maybe I just have an unnatural fixation on this; who knows.


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## MojoCrunch

Both men and women seem to be doing this. And yeah, it is depressing. The whole "settling with" someone they aren't really attracted to. I'd imagine it's fear of no one new ever coming around. This fear is what causes people to do this not realizing how demeaning it is to the other person. I would certainly never want to do this to a guy or have a guy do this to me. I would rather be alone then involved in something so....false. In addition, beauty fades after many years. Could you continue doing this after so many years? Unfortunately people have.


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## DeeperUnderstanding

I hate the idea as well. However, I would take a relationship over no relationship.


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## sas111

Every relationship ...didn't like their personality nor looks yet I felt desperate for a freind so I accepted this...


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## milly525

Being a girl I'm probably not the best person to comment on this, but I think you are being way too concerned about the way you look. I would choose a guy with a nice personality and average looks over some guy who's a good looking jerk any day. I'm sure your not bad looking as you make yourself out to be, but unfortunately it seems natural for us to be very judgmental of ourselves. It is a shame that people are doing what you described and it was wrong of your ex to continue the relationship if she didn't see any future in it, but you cannot assume from this that all girls will feel this way about you. I know plenty of girls who judge purely on personality and looks mean nothing to them. I hope you find someone like this who you can be comfortable with


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## anomalous

MojoCrunch said:


> *Both men and women seem to be doing this.* And yeah, it is depressing. The whole "settling with" someone they aren't really attracted to. I'd imagine it's fear of no one new ever coming around. This fear is what causes people to do this not realizing how demeaning it is to the other person. I would certainly never want to do this to a guy or have a guy do this to me. I would rather be alone then involved in something so....false. In addition, beauty fades after many years. Could you continue doing this after so many years? Unfortunately people have.


I should have clarified before this came up: I'm sure there are men who do this too, so I don't mean to sound excluding of the other gender's perspective.

I do feel like the type of "settling" men most often do might be a bit different in nature, though it's surely still equally demeaning.

Otherwise, good points, and I agree with everything else you said.


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## Salus

I havent been in a relationship with any one I have thought of as ugly, yeah personality is the top priority but I must find them attractive if I'm going to enter into a relationship with them.


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## CeilingStarer

I hate the whole settling thing too. I'd rather not be in a relationship.


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## Ape in space

It would suck if I felt that the girl was 'settling' for me. But I don't think I'd be terribly concerned that she didn't find me physically attractive, as long as she loved being with me for other reasons. What would concern me is if she not only didn't like me physically, but also wasn't terribly thrilled about any other aspects of me. I don't want a girl to be with me if she doesn't really want to be.


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## sarafinanickelbocker

Is it just females though? :/ This stuff wories me too, but turned around.


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## AliceSanKitchen

If you love someone they will be attractive regardless.


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## Jade18

no, I couldnt do that
the stereotype that hot women like a obese pimple but ugly guy if they are sweet and funny and women only care whats on the inside is such bullcrap. 
and girls I know wouldnt do that either


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## Paul

Are we talking about looks, or are we talking about sexual attraction? It's important to realize that they're distinct. I can easily be more sexually attracted to person A even though person B is better looking, due to personality factors. If person A is actually _ugly_ then personality isn't going to be enough for sexual attraction, and A could be a great friend while the particular personality factors involved in the friendship don't cause sexual attraction... but just saying, personality plays a role.


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## watashi

I never went on a date with someone I didn't find at least cute. I don't think it would be fair to the other person and to myself since I can be quite a perfectionist. There are women who would do that, like a young girl dating a rich old guy. I'm skeptical there is love there, though in a way both of them are getting what they want. Desperacy can also make people settle for less, but they'll never be happy.


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## Akane

Women settle all the time. I bet every woman I know has spent at least a short time in a relationship where they weren't really that attracted to the guy but thought he was ok enough to continue dating or even living with. Up until they get tired of settling or someone else comes along they are attracted to. Every woman in my family who is married is with someone they settled for. Some of them don't even sleep in the same bedroom as their husbands anymore. They just need someone around and don't want to keep looking. I think it's pathetic and I don't understand how they can live unhappy just to avoid the risk of being alone for a short time while dating. Personally I couldn't do it and as soon as I found I was not attracted to the guy I was living with anymore (he continued to slide in to further psychosis and immaturity) I left. Sure he was paying for everything (his aunt would give him $25,000 checks for birthday and christmas) and if I really wanted I could have basically ignored his existence and gone on with my life just living next to him but that sounds miserable to me. Somehow though that's exactly what every woman in my family does.


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## FadeToOne

This is why I really, really, really have to get out of this planet. There is no way you can win, you can only lose but convince yourself that it's not that bad.

Why doesn't Obama stop wasting time with crap and fund the mission to Mars already.


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## krista91

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.. I'm also wondering about this love thing and can two people truly get the ones they're both sexually attracted to, or does one still settles whilst the other one (probably the one who makes the moves on the person he or she finds attractive) gets the one he or she really wants.. *_* I'm afraid I'll be the one settling and I don't want to


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## nemesis1

I bet at least 50% of couples on this planet are a result of one party settling to some degree.


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## matty

I refuse to settle, and if I end up alone and 80 then so be it. Just means I would have to find other ways to spend my time. I dont ever want to be with someone just for the sake of not being alone. 

I would personally prefer an emotional connection over a physical one any day. I love a strong emotional connection, at the end of the day there has to be a bit of both. I am sure your ex felt some physical connection to you. Or else she would not be there.


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## Atticus

If settling is accepting that some people who are very attractive are not available to you, and choosing from among the people who are available, then about 90% of us settle. Sometimes people can't accept the people who tend to be available to them, and settle for being alone, which is a respectable choice.

To *anomalous*, you seem primarily concerned with a woman settling for a man who she isn't sexually attracted to. I notice some men relentlessly pursue women who, with apologies to joinmartin and those who believe as he does, appear to be considerably better looking than them. Sometimes that woman believes she should like this guy, because he has several nice qualities and despite there being little or no real attraction. His mistake for taking the "wear her down" approach, and her mistake for letting it work.

If a man or a woman is breaking his neck to make a relationship work, it's not working. If she's meeting you half way, there's a good chance she's genuinely interested in you for more than just being nice or stable.

Then there's the issue of what settling means. I think people often settle for people who are wrong for them for reasons other than a lack of strong physical attraction. In fact, attraction can blind a person to all sorts of character issues or just no fault incompatibility stuff, and when the attraction fades a bit as it inevitably does, you see the person for the poor choice he or she is for you.


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## Rasputin_1

Man im just hoping a super hot girl settles on me!


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## JamieHasAnxiety

I don't 'settle' for anything. I don't judge looks, I love people for who they are, and how they make my heart feel.


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## angus

melodymuffin said:


> If you love someone they will be attractive regardless.


Yer when your in love with someone even there imperfections are beautiful.


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## kelsomania

I think the problem is the OP equates settling with revulsion. 

None of my exes would be probably be considered "sexy" by society's standards. some were shorter than me. some were overweight. etc. 

That didn't mean I didn't want to be touched by them. No one is going to be 100% perfect. I wouldn't settle for a jerk but I would settle for someone who was just okay looking.


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## veron

anomalous said:


> How often do you think this happens?


I think this is a hard thing to estimate because people probably won't openly admit that they've "settled" for their partner. I've witnessed only one occasion in which it was obvious that one party settled for the other.

My cousin had a series of failed relationships before finally seeming to settle for his wife and starting a family with her. She had shown interest in him for a long time, and had even introduced one of his would-be-girlfriends to him. I must admit I wasn't too excited to hear they were getting married, as it seemed he had settled for her. However, they now seem very happy together.



anomalous said:


> If you're a girl, have you ever done it?


On a _very_ few occasions I have had guys I wasn't attracted to show some interest in me. Considering the fact that I had no friends, I thought about giving some relationship with them a try. But in the end, I never did. It just didn't seem right :stu


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## veron

Btw, I think that the OP is being widely misunderstood in this thread. Settling doesn't mean being with someone who isn't considered attractive by society's standards. It means being with someone who YOU do not find attractive. The person's physical appearance is irrelevant in this matter.


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## anomalous

veron said:


> Btw, I think that the OP is being widely misunderstood in this thread. Settling doesn't mean being with someone who isn't considered attractive by society's standards. It means being with someone who YOU do not find attractive. The person's physical appearance is irrelevant in this matter.


You're right, and thank you for pointing this out.

To reiterate, the inspiration for this thread comes largely from some extremely disturbing posts I've read on this very board by women who sound completely unattracted to their own partners. (And for anyone wondering why I'm making a gender distinction: I've seen few, if any, similar posts from men talking about being in a LTR with a girl they don't find sexy, but that doesn't mean they don't exist).


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## VanDamMan

Women are sexually attracted to guys' personalities. They aren't quite as shallow about looks as guys. If they aren't sexually attracted to a guy, they aren't attracted to them as a person.


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## anomalous

kelsomania said:


> I think the problem is the OP equates settling with revulsion.
> 
> None of my exes would be probably be considered "sexy" by society's standards. some were shorter than me. some were overweight. etc.
> 
> That didn't mean I didn't want to be touched by them. No one is going to be 100% perfect. I wouldn't settle for a jerk but I would settle for someone who was just okay looking.


Interesting perspective; maybe my thinking is too black-and-white.

If you don't mind a bit more prying, did you spend a lot of fantasizing about other men you found more sexually attractive while in these relationships? (Not that sexual fantasizing is uncommon during relationships, but do you think it happened to a greater extent than it would have if you were with "sexy" guys?)

Did you ever have conversations with other friends or family in which you acknowledged they weren't the greatest catch?

I guess those are a couple examples of things that would really bother me (if I knew about them to begin with), but that I'm afraid are simply very common for "un-sexy" guys like me who do finally manage relationships.


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## anomalous

VanDamMan said:


> Women are sexually attracted to guys' personalities. They aren't quite as shallow about looks as guys. If they aren't sexually attracted to a guy, they aren't attracted to them as a person.


I should clarify that I intended "sexy" to entail both physical and non-physical attributes.

I'm just as worried that a girl would see herself as "settling" for me because I'm a boring pushover and lack the excitement of a bad-boy type as I am about appearance.


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## Monroee

I didn't technically settle because it happened when I was like 15, but the first boy that liked me... well, I wasn't technically attracted to him. It was more the fact that he was only person who paid attention to me.

I wouldn't think it would be that rare for someone with SA & limited choices.


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## VanDamMan

anomalous said:


> I should clarify that I intended "sexy" to entail both physical and non-physical attributes.
> 
> I'm just as worried that a girl would see herself as "settling" for me because I'm a boring pushover and lack the excitement of a bad-boy type as I am about appearance.


It could be, who knows. You'd have to tell us more about it.

Most I've known seem torn between going for the jerk who they are attracted to but know is dysfuctional. Or go with a less exciting guy who there is a strong possibility of a good longterm relationship.


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## leave me alone

My first relationship I ever had was me "settling for" a girl that i wasnt attracted to.. The chick basicly did "all the work", she asked for my contact from my friend, started to text me. I only replied becaouse i wanted to be nice, but i didnt feel atracted to her. I never had a relationship before, so i was really inexeperienced with girls. Few weeks passed by, we were still texting and i find out that we have lots in common. I agreed to go on "real date" with her. It was little awkward at first, but then we got comfortable with each other. I still wasnt really atracted to her physically, but i really liked her personality. At the end of the day, we kissed and that made our relationship kind of official i guess. By the time i started to get more and more atracted to her, even physically. Our relationship lasted almost 6 months and it was beautiful, first but the best relationship i ever had. But then i did something that i cant forgive myself even to this day and thinking of it makes me want to smash everything around me. We did break up, because of me, i was so stupid.. I didnt value our relationship enough and at first i havent even realise what i did. (i havent cheat on her btw.)

I met her like half year after our breakup, we didnt talk, but our sight crossed and just looked at each other. I could see in her eyes the pain and hate she felt towards me. I would do anything to atleast let her know, that i am sorry, because i never said it before, but now its too late.

So yeah, settling for somebody you arent sexually attracted to isnt a bad thing. First impression often lies. If you give her/him a chance, you might be surprised how much you have in common and you might start to like each other even more. There is definitely enough space for "growth" of your love towards the other person.

edit: IDK, maybe women are different and they cant accept a guy who they are not physically attracted to at first sight.


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## bsd3355

Jade18 said:


> no, I couldnt do that
> the stereotype that hot women like a obese pimple but ugly guy if they are sweet and funny and women only care whats on the inside is such bullcrap.
> and girls I know wouldnt do that either


amen. i wish i would of known this growing up. would of saved lots of hassle on both sides. maybe it is me, but i wish women would be more open to admitting it like you. because not only does it put a bad view on men for only being known for this, but it makes ugly guys go after supermodel type women with the belief that they have a great chance, and while hoping is a good thing, we all need to be realistic with life to cope the best. i went form thinking i was good looking to just recently realizing i'm not in the same ballpark as i thought i was and i've learned to deal with it.  everyone gets "ugly" eventually anyway so it's not like anyone can escape it...

i also think there will be a harder transition for women to be more honest about their feelings as I've noticed it SEEMS to be easier for a man to admit what he isn't attracted to, but maybe i haven't talked to enough girls. i think once the planet finally catches up and understands each other it will be less sexual hypocrisies, then the world with all it's rawness can shed some true light and set realistic boundaries and expectations for the illusionists. yeah, it hurts to be told your not good enough but we've been conditioned to live in a f'n bubble for so long we think we are immune to be imperfect. there is something wrong with that. ladies, please be honest! to hell with the opposition. no real man with self-respect wants a woman just because she settled. do the world a favor and let society stop being retarded and fess up to what nature is really like! humans shouldn't be babied all their lives with soft talk and white lies...


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## anomalous

bwidger85 said:


> amen. i wish i would of known this growing up. would of saved lots of hassle on both sides. maybe it is me, but i wish women would be more open to admitting it like you. because not only does it put a bad view on men for only being known for this, but it makes ugly guys go after supermodel type women with the belief that they have a great chance, and while hoping is a good thing, we all need to be realistic with life to cope the best. i went form thinking i was good looking to just recently realizing i'm not in the same ballpark as i thought i was and i've learned to deal with it. everyone gets "ugly" eventually anyway so it's not like anyone can escape it...
> 
> i also think there will be a harder transition for women to be more honest about their feelings as I've noticed it SEEMS to be easier for a man to admit what he isn't attracted to, but maybe i haven't talked to enough girls. i think once the planet finally catches up and understands each other it will be less sexual hypocrisies, then the world with all it's rawness can shed some true light and set realistic boundaries and expectations for the illusionists. yeah, it hurts to be told your not good enough but we've been conditioned to live in a f'n bubble for so long we think we are immune to be imperfect. there is something wrong with that. ladies, please be honest! to hell with the opposition. no real man with self-respect wants a woman just because she settled. do the world a favor and let society stop being retarded and fess up to what nature is really like! humans shouldn't be babied all their lives with soft talk and white lies...


My thoughts exactly. Agreed on every point. Honesty, depressing as it often is as pertains to this topic, is far preferable to the false hope that dishonesty breeds.


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## odd_one_out

I don't think I'm capable of settling. It would drive me over the edge. I had to end it with my friend last year because I couldn't handle the idea of settling. If I ever enter another relationship it won't be rushed or out of friendship (which I can now distinguish from love). I'll only bother entering another one if it's love. Having now experienced love (for people I can't be with), I recognise it and can't settle for less again. 

I am pretty sure I can now tell if the other loves me and won't form a relationship if I suspect they're settling.


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## Freiheit

nemesis1 said:


> I bet at least 50% of couples on this planet are a result of one party settling to some degree.


I bet that too...My parents strike me as one of these couples for various reasons...Personally, I don't ever see myself having a relationship with someone I'm not totally sexually attracted to because it would seem pointless and like a waste of time to just "settle"...It just wouldn't be fulfilling...


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## Scrub-Zero

CeilingStarer said:


> I hate the whole settling thing too. I'd rather not be in a relationship.


Yep. That's why i wait a long time to go steady with someone. I want to make sure i'm into her for the right reasons.


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## PLarry

WHOA! Holy crap, I never had a thought about this until now. This completely blows my mind. I just never figured anyone actually thought like this. I just never figured people could be hooking up with someone that they didn't find attractive, except for like at a bar or something. Why would they do that to themselves?

I mean, I dated a girl that was pudgy once, but its not like I saw her "pudge" and noted an unattractive characteristic. I mean, it was like noting eye color, or hair color or something. I mean, it just was. I was attracted to her, and she fell into a range of characteristics I attract to. She could have been in better shape, but it wouldn't have made her more attractive. She could have been in worse shape and it wouldn't have bothered me to an extent. Sounds shallow but I don't believe in such a thing as "shallowness". That's just how relationships function. You cannot help what you like. If you can, then you are God. 

It sounds to me like if you were with someone because of there looks then there is a physical attraction. If you are with someone for their mentality then there is another one. But if they have both (that's possible right) then your Goldie Locks. Just how often do you hear a woman say "he's an ugly one, but I love him". I mean come on. That is not a relationship, that's just a pity (expletive deleted). Or like that movie I once saw from like the 60's about a guy who falls in love with a girl in Paris or someplace but even though she loves him back she refuses him for the man who protected her and her family during WW2. I remember because I was both upset and confused as it ended in some sort of interpretive dance as the lights cut out and it got all creepy jazzy. I wish I could remember what the name of that movie was.


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## PLarry

*Advice is like belly button lint, everyone has it.*



milly525 said:


> I would choose a guy with a nice personality and average looks over some guy who's a good looking jerk any day.


First off I want to say I understand what you mean and agree with the concept that an ugly good person is by far better than an attractive buttwad (haha oxymoron, unless you are a pervert ).

However, (oh here it comes) here is where I disagree with this whole attractive/unattractive labeling system. Beyond the whole relativity of beauty and what not, for a person to acknowledge to them-self that the girl he hooked up with is only average in appearance then he has admitted that he doesn't find her as attractive as someone else and thus lost the Tao, or failed in some respect. 
It's like racism for instance. Even if you are not racist the very fact that you take the time to point out that someone is black/white/orange then you have created discrimination. I feel somehow dating should be a bit more natural like:

"Hey I like you"
"Hey I like you too"
"Let's hook up"
"Cool"

and less like:

"Well Todd has a six pack and can lift a truck, but Bill over there, he gets me"

In this scenario its less like you actually like either of them and more like you are planning for what tool is going to best fit in your utility belt. (sweet, a batman reference)

So to conclude I think a person should just do what comes natural and if you find yourself thinking about the appearance or personality of a person, weighing pros and cons, you've made a mistake somewhere.


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## kelsomania

anomalous said:


> Interesting perspective; maybe my thinking is too black-and-white.
> 
> If you don't mind a bit more prying, did you spend a lot of fantasizing about other men you found more sexually attractive while in these relationships? (Not that sexual fantasizing is uncommon during relationships, but do you think it happened to a greater extent than it would have if you were with "sexy" guys?)
> 
> Did you ever have conversations with other friends or family in which you acknowledged they weren't the greatest catch?
> 
> I guess those are a couple examples of things that would really bother me (if I knew about them to begin with), but that I'm afraid are simply very common for "un-sexy" guys like me who do finally manage relationships.


No, I didn't fanasize about other men more than normal ( I am human lol). I _wanted _to be with them. I didn't have my fingers crossed that someone better would come along.

I have had those consersations with my best friend and my family. Sometimes even people I hardly know. Everyone wanted me to justify my relationship. There wasn't much I could do but stick up for the guy and ignore them.


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## sable

This is something about humans I don't understand. I have friends who are in relationship with guys for "security", because they find the guy to be "stable" and treats them good, but they aren't really attracted to the guy.

Likewise there are men who have girlfriends they don't find attracted just to have a girlfriend or to get sex or whatever...

To me it's alien. I have had 2 relationships, both with guys I were attracted to. I don't see a reason to be with someone for any other reason. I mean security? Yeah, it's not like us girls don't have access to education and work ( for the most part) and the ability to take care of ourselves these days so give me a break...

I find it strange..., I mean, why would anyone want to be close and sweet and intimate with someone they don't really feel anything for? All these little things that you share with a person when you're inlove, sweet things you say to eachother etc. How do they do it? Do they fake the whole relationship? =S


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## sable

Oh, and I just want to add; I'm not usually attracted to a guy with a sixpack or textbook good looks, the guys I've been attracted to have had some interesting personality traits that has drawn me in, like humor, charm, a certain way of carrying themselves...

The older I have gotten, the more I have started to be attracted to silly things like kindness, a good heart and so on... those guys are hard to find though. Most guys are jackasses and usually just interested in getting into my pants...


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## laura024

I try not to be shallow by dating guys who are nice but not necessarily physically attractive. This always comes back to bite me in the *** though, because you really can't expect a long-term romantic relationship with someone you're not attracted to. Looks are a part of the whole picture.


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## Chris2012

Yeah but you may not find somebody to be attractive when you first meet them. I know a girl who I didn't think was *that* good looking when I first met her. But after hanging out with her, I think she is the most beautiful woman in the world.

But still... she's really not all that hot. Her body is so-so and she's got kind of a cute face, but that's it...

But she's gorgeous because to me because of the way I feel about her. I can't really explain it better than that.

It's the overall package, not just the looks.


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## heroin

According to this, women, on average, find over 80% of men unattractive.

So they are definitely doing at least some settling.



> As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium.
> .....
> But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren't good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.


Get used to being "settled for".

Contrast this with:


> Our chart shows how men have rated women, on a scale from *0* to *5*. The curve is symmetric and surprisingly charitable: a woman is as likely to be considered extremely ugly as extremely beautiful, and the majority of women have been rated about "medium." The chart _looks_ normalized, even though it's just the unfiltered opinions of our male users.
> 
> *Given the popular wisdom that Hollywood, the Internet, and Photoshop have created unrealistic expectations of how a woman should look, I found the fairness and, well, realism, of this gray arc kind of heartening.*


Guess who has "unreasonably high standards of beauty for the opposite sex"?

OMG!!!GENDERWARRR!!!LOCKTHETHREAD!!!!!!!111


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## JustWakeUp

Chris2012 said:


> Yeah but you may not find somebody to be attractive when you first meet them. I know a girl who I didn't think was *that* good looking when I first met her. But after hanging out with her, I think she is the most beautiful woman in the world.
> 
> But still... she's really not all that hot. Her body is so-so and she's got kind of a cute face, but that's it...
> 
> But she's gorgeous because to me because of the way I feel about her. I can't really explain it better than that.
> 
> It's the overall package, not just the looks.



^ Agree

I would still really hate myself if I did that to some I loved though.


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## Black_Widow

In terms of getting into a relationship at the beginning no I can't say I have. With my first boyfriend admittedly I wasn't sexually attracted to him when meeting him for the first time. But then he quickly grew on me after in that way. And it was the same kind of case when I first met my current partner too. Though with him there was definitely a stronger initial personality attraction than I experienced with my previous boyfriend.

Still, I believe that in any long term relationship - regardless of how much sexual attraction is felt at the beginning - that it's inevitable that the lust aspect is eventually going to cool down at some stage. And that this happens as much from a guy's point of view as it does from a woman's.


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## ladofmad

I've always believed that married couples are "settling" for each other in one way or another. In fact, people who can't "settle" either never marry or have frequent divorces.


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## Hello22

I don't think i'm capable of settling tbh. Once someone likes me, i tend to use avoidance techniques, so they don't fall for me any further,....... and its worked so far. 

I dont like the notion of settling for anything just so i'm not lonely, its not exactly right, and i can do anything i want as a single person, i don't need a bf to go places with, so its not something i'm looking for right now.


----------



## FadeToOne

joinmartin said:


> Once, long ago, I thought as you think. And the net result of doing so is I could be married by now. My ex, Kate, is a stunning looking woman. Stunning on the inside too. And I felt insecure. That she'd go out and meet a guy she would obviously be more attracted to than she was to me. I lacked this, I lacked that...blah...blah...blah...all excuses for not growing up and actually embracing something I didn't exactly know how to handle or deal with. Same old nonsense negative patterns running over and over again and clinging to some daftly sketch "honest" idea of things. Because I couldn't be wrong now, could I? Like all men, I could read a woman's mind and always be right about what she felt and thought.
> 
> I feared losing her. And yet, what I was doing was going someway towards making that happen. It was as if I had to prove to her that I was really no good and she'd soon get the idea and go find some guy I thought she'd find more attractive.
> 
> I didn't want her to prove my negative beliefs about myself to be "true" but I was acting and shouting from the rafters about how "true" they were. I believed in the negative stuff about me and wanted her to understand it too. I was basically the cheerleader for everything I thought was bad about me.
> 
> So, I got locked in a "I'm not good enough for you but I don't want you to prove that to me because it will mess with my self esteem if you do" loop. Ridiculous. My self esteem was already dying. I was killing it. What she did or did not feel was secondary to the damage I was doing to myself by holding on to these beliefs.
> 
> Supermodels date guys who are "not conventionally attractive". That is a- what is it TFL inspired crowd- oh yes, it's a FACT. The idea that all those women out there who date "normal people" are somehow "settling" is the great last gasp of TFL twaddle that loves to grasp at the idea that women have some sort of universal standards that they all follow in hive mentality.
> 
> Settling can and does happen. But we need to bring it back down to the individual level to see what is really going on here.
> 
> It is about the person and people as a whole. People have a self image. They believe they are good enough or not good enough. They get confident in stuff about themselves that nobody else sees or even notices. For example, nobody noticed my healing elbow until I pointed it out to them. I had to make sure they saw it as a limitation of me before they noticed it. Shows just how determined we can be to try and sell the negative stories about ourselves to other people.
> 
> Frankly, it frightens me that people seem to be encouraged to get an "idea" in their heads about their looks and then to go "oh, I'm not good enough to go for someone who is considered conventionally attractive". What a bunch of twaddle. You judge yourself unfavorably against some made up guidelines and or against one idea about what beauty may or may not be and you let it run your life, your expectations and your dream. That is not honesty or even any kind of fact. That is you shooting yourself in the foot constantly.
> 
> You fear something you think is true of you. You fear it happening or being proved to be true but you already think is true so it needs no proof.
> 
> Unless you think there's a chance it may not be true about you and you'd liked to jump ship to the truth about yourself but you're scared that you might make a mistake? Understandable and natural. Take comfort in a negative, depressive, distorted vision of everything if it makes you feel safe. You know yourself best. But are you really worth that little?
> 
> Whatever happened with this girl, was she right to squash your self esteem? Are you really a worthless piece of nonsense that nobody should give a darn about? Is that who you are? Or was she the one who made the mistake? Did she get it wrong? For the love of goodness, fight and stand up for the good person you are. The good enough person. The more than good enough person. Don't listen to me. Listen to yourself. Because those good things about you are true and can be true if you let them be true for you.
> 
> Or you can have a life where, like me, you have a Kate. A sexy, funny, intelligent girl who pretty much won't speak to you anymore because you broke her heart.
> 
> Because, a lot of the time, other people don't see us how we see ourselves. Turns out she did find me sexually attractive. My rejection of her made her feel like she wasn't good enough. Made her feel like she had to settle.
> 
> Because nobody is an island. And the negative crap we believe about ourselves from time to time trickles down into the minds of those we know, those we love. It is toxic. And it is time we got rid of it. There is no security in the darkness. Yes, you may be safe for now. But you still can't see.


ah, so that's your sob story. You realize what a muppet you were, and have made it your life's mission to scour message boards and try to eliminate any trace of negativity you see in others that might somehow reflect your failure. Like some kind of internet superhero. And deep down you probably expect some kind of reward for this too.

Get over yourself.


----------



## bsd3355

Yeah, I'll die single. Might as well accept it now  I'm too picky and not good enough looking in return. Epic fail:b


----------



## Atticus

FadeToOne said:


> ah, so that's your sob story. You realize what a muppet you were, and have made it your life's mission to scour message boards and try to eliminate any trace of negativity you see in others that might somehow reflect your failure. Like some kind of internet superhero. And deep down you probably expect some kind of reward for this too.
> 
> Get over yourself.


Your message here (in the thread in general) seems relentlessly negative. I know that reflects your feelings about your prospects for a relationship and relationships in general. Your mood probably feels natural or right to you. Your outlook probably seems "realistic" or practical, in light of your personal experience, or your interpretation of your experience.

I respect that and it's not my place to tell you how to think. And so you know, becaue I don't know you or have any relationship beyond being a fellow member of this site, I could give a **** what you think personally, but yours is such a common attitude and approach to SA as it relates to dating, or other issues you've alluded to but not named, that it strikes a very famiar cord. My response is to that familiar cord and all the strings that contribute to it. It's not just about you.

In response, since you're unlikely to let me or anyone influence you, it seems that you believe that you decide your attitude on things. Given that, this is the attitude you've chosen? Of all the possible ways you might consider your experience and your future, this rigid, bleak outlook is the best you could imagine?

How's that working out? How's your choice serving you?


----------



## Harpuia

joinmartin said:


> If you do it first. I'm curious to know what your sob story is?
> 
> With respect and love, it's nice to sometimes get rewards for doing good work. I am, after all, human. But it's not what I strive for. I used a story from my life to demonstrate what can happen when negative beliefs a person has about themselves rule the roost.
> 
> Yeah, I do realise what a muppet I was to let my ridiculously inaccurate, negative insecurities about myself prompt me to dismiss the romantic attentions and affections of a wonderful young woman. That's not a failure on my part because there is no competition. But I do recognise that I was a muppet (I wonder which one, Gonzo?) to let a woman like that go because of the daft, ridiculously negative things I thought were true about myself at the time.
> 
> I know what it is like to let false perceptions of who you are as a person destroy parts of your life. Forgive me for not wanting other people to go through similar upsets in their life. Forgive me for coming to all this with a sense of empathy and compassion and honest and truly backed up optimistic vision that people are most likely more than they think they are. It's not about me spreading what I think people should think on messageboards. You and the other worshippers of bleakness do that all fine by yourself where you stay rigid and locked in your "there is no love, it's all a lie, it may fail the go outside and see test but I'll cling to that anyway" line of thinking. And I accept and even love that because I accept people just the way they are.
> 
> And when people accept and appreciate themselves deeply for being just who they are right now they open themselves up to positive changes.
> 
> I can't eliminate negativity in other people. Some people cling to negativity like a security blanket. I have no intention of robbing people of their security blankets. No intention of robbing them of the stuff they used to build security and safety and stop themselves feeling hurt.
> 
> I say what I think and what I feel but nobody has to go along with it.
> 
> But if I must be an internet superhero then I pick Batman's outfit. Let's face it, Superman was okay but the whole blue and red thing? Seriously? Nah. Black on black and I get my own bat signal and a butler and in the third film I get Nicole Kidman. Result!


Batman had a horrible sidekick...


----------



## LightInDarkPlaces

I personally am incapable of feeling any kind of physical attraction to anyone unless I really dig their personality and find them interesting...which can actually tend to make finding someone I'm genuinely attracted to a very difficult task. People just need to practice patience and should never resort to settling for someone who they are either physically unattracted to but like personality-wise, or the other way around either. I do find the idea of someone settling for me pretty scary though. I would never want to waste my time with someone like that, so rude.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

It's because the main thing women look for is social life and social personality in a man. Then after that, it's money. They need to have a guy that can provide a roof over their head, food on the table, and possibly kids eventually.

Sexual attraction is below these things I just listed. Of course, looks may be more important than money to women who are already loaded financially. I still say social life/personality is most important even to the rich women.


----------



## mooncake

IcemanKilmer said:


> It's because the main thing *some* women look for is social life and social personality in a man. Then after that, it's money. *Some* need to have a guy that can provide a roof over their head, food on the table, and possibly kids eventually.
> 
> Sexual attraction is below these things I just listed. Of course, looks may be more important than money to women who are already loaded financially. I still say social life/personality is most important even to the rich women.


Fixed for you. My boyfriend isn't a very social person, and has less financial assets than I do. Do I, and all the other females who consistently tell posters like you that you're wrong, not count as women or something? Please stop with this ridiculous 'one size fits all' ideology. People are different.

Many women, like myself, just want to be with someone who makes them happy. And that happiness comes from enjoying such a person's company, having shared interests... you know, an actual emotional connection, not from assessing how much of a social life they have, or how much money they have in the bank. Hard to believe, I know, but it's true. As long as he's happy to pull his weight when it comes to bringing in money and putting it towards the bills, I'm perfectly capable of earning my own, thank you, so why would I be so concerned with that? Why would I give a damn what his 'social status' is, when it's him alone as a companion that I want? Only the most shallow of women (and why the hell would a person want to be with one of those anyway, unless they're shallow themselves?) would judge a person on those things, not each and every one of us as is so often made out by a select few males on this board.

As for the original topic, I'd never settle for anyone. I'd rather be alone than with someone I'm not 100% into. But sexual attraction, for me, is so tied up with personality that the two tend to go hand in hand. I can see how people end up settling, though... I suppose being with anyone, for some, is better than being with no one. Look around these boards, for example, and you'll see so many people saying that they just want a girlfriend/boyfriend... in most cases I'm sure the person wants, above all, a companion that they can share their life with. But sometimes I can't help but get the impression that it wouldn't essentially matter who that girlfriend/boyfriend actually was, so long as they were there, to tick the box so to speak. Isn't that showing a tendency towards settling, in some respects? It's sad to think that settling happens, by both males and females, but genuine affection, I think, is something that would be hard to fake, for any prolonged period of time at least. I really can't imagine being with someone who I didn't genuinely feel attracted to.


----------



## Paragon

IcemanKilmer said:


> It's because the main thing women look for is social life and social personality in a man. Then after that, it's money. They need to have a guy that can provide a roof over their head, food on the table, and possibly kids eventually.


See everyone says this, but i know of guys that are successful with women and either have no social life, or have no money (though usually not both admittedly). In most cases it seems to be confidence and their personality that attracts women, and all the other 'requirements' seem to go out the window.

So yeah, i'll say that some girls definitely do chase after guys who either have social status or money, i've met plenty of them. It depresses me at times too. But there are plenty who don't as well. I hope? lol.


----------



## bsd3355

mooncake said:


> Fixed for you. My boyfriend isn't a very social person, and has less financial assets than I do. Do I, and all the other females who consistently tell posters like you that you're wrong, not count as women or something? Please stop with this ridiculous 'one size fits all' ideology. People are different.
> 
> Many women, like myself, just want to be with someone who makes them happy. And that happiness comes from enjoying such a person's company, having shared interests... you know, an actual emotional connection, not from assessing how much of a social life they have, or how much money they have in the bank. Hard to believe, I know, but it's true. As long as he's happy to pull his weight when it comes to bringing in money and putting it towards the bills, I'm perfectly capable of earning my own, thank you, so why would I be so concerned with that? Why would I give a damn what his 'social status' is, when it's him alone as a companion that I want? Only the most shallow of women (and why the hell would a person want to be with one of those anyway, unless they're shallow themselves?) would judge a person on those things, not each and every one of us as is so often made out by a select few males on this board.
> 
> As for the original topic, I'd never settle for anyone. I'd rather be alone than with someone I'm not 100% into. But sexual attraction, for me, is so tied up with personality that the two tend to go hand in hand. I can see how people end up settling, though... I suppose being with anyone, for some, is better than being with no one. Look around these boards, for example, and you'll see so many people saying that they just want a girlfriend/boyfriend... in most cases I'm sure the person wants, above all, a companion that they can share their life with. But sometimes I can't help but get the impression that it wouldn't essentially matter who that girlfriend/boyfriend actually was, so long as they were there, to tick the box so to speak. Isn't that showing a tendency towards settling, in some respects? It's sad to think that settling happens, by both males and females, but genuine affection, I think, is something that would be hard to fake, for any prolonged period of time at least. I really can't imagine being with someone who I didn't genuinely feel attracted to.


Either the women here were to shy to speak out or they just didn't care to post, but I'm glad more women are speaking out on these forums on specific subjects. At one point in my life I was very uneducated into what women really wanted either because they didn't speak up or because I didn't talk to many. The more people speak up and tell the truths about how they feel the better it is for everybody. Lol, sorry, just had to say that once again....:b


----------



## Kon

IcemanKilmer said:


> It's because the main thing women look for is social life and social personality in a man. Then after that, it's money. They need to have a guy that can provide a roof over their head, food on the table, and possibly kids eventually.
> 
> Sexual attraction is below these things I just listed. Of course, looks may be more important than money to women who are already loaded financially. I still say social life/personality is most important even to the rich women.


I think it depends on the woman. Most of my girlfriends were not that rich and I was dirt-poor (no assets and a lot of school debt) and yet they were attracted to me. They weren't gorgeous but they were above average in looks. I think many girls are attracted to personality and of course looks. It couldn't have been my social personality as I had only 1-2 friends and no social life whatsoever, when I met my wife. I am good one to one though, once I get to know a girl.


----------



## mooncake

bwidger85 said:


> Either the women here were to shy to speak out or they just didn't care to post, but I'm glad more women are speaking out on these forums on specific subjects. At one point in my life I was very uneducated into what women really wanted either because they didn't speak up or because I didn't talk to many. The more people speak up and tell the truths about how they feel the better it is for everybody. Lol, sorry, just had to say that once again....:b


I agree that it's good for people to talk about these things. I can certainly understand how pretty rigid perceptions about the sexes may arise and why sometimes people tend to think of things only in black and white terms. After all, having SA can make contact with anyone, often especially the other sex, tricky. Therefore it's inevitable, such being the case, that we may lose touch with how things like relationships are in the real world, since all we have to go by are our limited perceptions (which can be far from unbiased) or images from the media, and very little actual personal experience, which can easily only cause us to see what we want to see (i.e. only that which will reinforce our beliefs, which may be heavily distorted), or to pick up on the 'bad' rather than the good, since the bad always tends to be more evident. When I go out, for instance, I always tend to notice the obnoxious types more than the quieter ones, but that doesn't mean that the latter don't exist. It would hardly be realistic for me to claim that everyone is obnoxious based on that observation. Maybe I am wrong about my own belief that females aren't all as shallow as is so commonly made out, but I really think that this whole 'women want' thing may be based along the same lines. We hear about the golddiggers, about the shallow 'checklist, male must have' types because they stand out more. We don't tend to hear about the very many relationships wherein couples share a very deep, mutual love based on a strong emotional connection and genuine attraction to the other person's personality (which by the way is something that everyone has, regardless of whether they have SA!). And yet those relationships do exist!

Perhaps the kind of men who believe that all women want a rich, socially successful, 'macho male' are men who are into the kinds of women who do actually think that way (and I'm not denying that shallow women do exist, because they do, just as there are shallow men), and that's why they just tend to notice these types of women rather than the rest of us. I really don't know.

Sometimes I feel like, why bother to give my opinion?, though, because those of us who have tried to do so seem just to be told that we must either be lying or that we must not know what we really want. Heaven forbid that our opinions don't align with someone's inflexible way of seeing the world! In that case, it appears that it's easier for some people simply to shun our ideas and assertions rather than to actually accept them as valid viewpoints and statements of truth. I mean, what would be in it for me to lie? Am I, as a female, so intellectually challenged that I don't know my own mind? I honestly, genuinely, do find traits such as introversion and/or quietness, humbleness, compassion, and kindness attractive. Obnoxious, socially 'out there', over-confident guys are not attractive to me in the slightest (as are, it happens, people who like to pigeonhole me based on what gender I am and therefore all of the traits that I must necessarily embody). Personal character and 'connection', for me, trumps everything when it comes to relationships, and I know I'm far from the only woman who feels that way.


----------



## Haydsmom2007

Most of the guys I date are attractive (to me) ... I dated one guy who I wasnt really attracted to.... I wont state the reason I continued to date him, but I broke it off after about a month because he was getting attached and I wasn't and didn't have any expectations for it to become serious or anything. So other than that one guy, all the other guys I've dated I was attracted to. I wouldn't stay in an unhappy relationship period. For stability, money, anything.


----------



## Haydsmom2007

A lot of women go for the guys that are in "high demand" ... guys that put themselves out there.... bartenders for example. They get so much a** it's ridiculous. And why? Because they're a bartender??? *scratches head* it's like girls want to compete for men. The men that get more vagina, get more vagina in return because girls see that he's wanted by every other girl so they go for him. It's not very fair is it? lol. 

I work at a restaurant and it's a mongolian restaraunt with a big grill and there's a handful of grillers who stand in there and cook the food in front of all the customers and they do little tricks (like flipping food behind their backs, etc.) ... there's this one guy who's fairly attractive.. not a 10 by any means but decent looking. You wouldn't imagine all the girls he's picked up simply by having that job. Girls give him their numbers all the time. I don't get it.


----------



## FadeToOne

Atticus said:


> Your message here (in the thread in general) seems relentlessly negative. I know that reflects your feelings about your prospects for a relationship and relationships in general. Your mood probably feels natural or right to you. Your outlook probably seems "realistic" or practical, in light of your personal experience, or your interpretation of your experience.
> 
> I respect that and it's not my place to tell you how to think. And so you know, becaue I don't know you or have any relationship beyond being a fellow member of this site, I could give a **** what you think personally, but yours is such a common attitude and approach to SA as it relates to dating, or other issues you've alluded to but not named, that it strikes a very famiar cord. My response is to that familiar cord and all the strings that contribute to it. It's not just about you.
> 
> In response, since you're unlikely to let me or anyone influence you, it seems that you believe that you decide your attitude on things. Given that, this is the attitude you've chosen? Of all the possible ways you might consider your experience and your future, this rigid, bleak outlook is the best you could imagine?
> 
> How's that working out? How's your choice serving you?


Yeah I went shopping for an attitude at the local Gap and they only had this one so....

I am going about 100% of all my experiences, and the vast majority of the experiences of people I know and things I have read. If you want me to believe that no, it's just a magical dark cloud of relationships horror that has been following me around through the different countries and continents I've lived in my entire life, and that in reality everything is completely different.....I don't even see how I can finish this sentence.


----------



## FadeToOne

joinmartin said:


> If you do it first. I'm curious to know what your sob story is?
> 
> With respect and love, it's nice to sometimes get rewards for doing good work. I am, after all, human. But it's not what I strive for. I used a story from my life to demonstrate what can happen when negative beliefs a person has about themselves rule the roost.
> 
> Yeah, I do realise what a muppet I was to let my ridiculously inaccurate, negative insecurities about myself prompt me to dismiss the romantic attentions and affections of a wonderful young woman. That's not a failure on my part because there is no competition. But I do recognise that I was a muppet (I wonder which one, Gonzo?) to let a woman like that go because of the daft, ridiculously negative things I thought were true about myself at the time.
> 
> I know what it is like to let false perceptions of who you are as a person destroy parts of your life. Forgive me for not wanting other people to go through similar upsets in their life. Forgive me for coming to all this with a sense of empathy and compassion and honest and truly backed up optimistic vision that people are most likely more than they think they are. It's not about me spreading what I think people should think on messageboards. You and the other worshippers of bleakness do that all fine by yourself where you stay rigid and locked in your "there is no love, it's all a lie, it may fail the go outside and see test but I'll cling to that anyway" line of thinking. And I accept and even love that because I accept people just the way they are.
> 
> And when people accept and appreciate themselves deeply for being just who they are right now they open themselves up to positive changes.
> 
> I can't eliminate negativity in other people. Some people cling to negativity like a security blanket. I have no intention of robbing people of their security blankets. No intention of robbing them of the stuff they used to build security and safety and stop themselves feeling hurt.
> 
> I say what I think and what I feel but nobody has to go along with it.
> 
> But if I must be an internet superhero then I pick Batman's outfit. Let's face it, Superman was okay but the whole blue and red thing? Seriously? Nah. Black on black and I get my own bat signal and a butler and in the third film I get Nicole Kidman. Result!


Worshiper of Bleakness : "OK. One thing though...I never said thank you."

joinmartin: "And you'll never have to."

http://therumpus.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/15batm1650.jpg


----------



## brucewayne

actually, a movie i saw described something similar to this issue...

"it is not only love which makes people stay/leave a relationship..."

the message is quite clear, when you are above 25 yrs of age, physical attraction is merely a product of our idealistic minds but not our realistic bodies...when we are close to settling down or whenever we finish our studies and move towards a career, we tend to consider a lot of things on our partners, such as financial status, character, values, upbringing, family background, religion, etc...

i must agree with the subject here, unfortunately, to most people, physical/sexual attraction is only applicable when they are young... and when they start to work and see the harsh realities in life, they tend to consider a lot of things than just plain attraction and love...


----------



## IcemanKilmer

*


mooncake said:



Fixed for you.

Click to expand...

*


mooncake said:


> You can disagree with me all you want. You can tell me how you think I'm wrong all you want. But, the one thing that I ask is that you do not misquote me.
> 
> When have I ever added a word into your quotation so it made it look like you said something you did not. You are basically plagiarizing my writing and it is extremely rude. I ask that you please not twist my quotes anymore.
> 
> *My boyfriend isn't a very social person, and has less financial assets than I do.*
> 
> But he does have financial assets, lol. You are proving my point that money matters. I never said the guy has to have more financial assets than the woman. I said that he has to be able contribute cash and/or assets into the relationship so they can live reasonably. Ambition matters too.
> 
> *Do I, and all the other females who consistently tell posters like you that you're wrong, not count as women or something?*
> 
> You are a woman, and they are women. I never said any of you don't count as women. I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that just because I disagree with something you say that it means I don't think you are a woman?
> 
> *Please stop with this ridiculous 'one size fits all' ideology. People are different. *
> 
> You're asking me to do something you'd like, yet in your post you put extra words in my quote so it sounds like i said something I didn't. Don't you think that's a little hypocritical to be asking for me to do something you want, when you abuse my words in my post?
> 
> *Many women, like myself, just want to be with someone who makes them happy. And that happiness comes from enjoying such a person's company, having shared interests... you know, an actual emotional connection, not from assessing how much of a social life they have, or how much money they have in the bank.*
> 
> In order to have an emotional connection, you must speak to each other, which you do. My most important qualification for a man to get a woman was _social personality_ and social life. If you have an emotional connection, you obviously like his _social personality._ So he has the most important quality I listed. Not sure how I'm somehow wrong about that?
> 
> *Hard to believe, I know, but it's true. As long as he's happy to pull his weight when it comes to bringing in money and putting it towards the bills, I'm perfectly capable of earning my own, thank you, so why would I be so concerned with that?*
> 
> Lol, exactly: You specifically say he pulls his weight financially! That's exactly what I'm saying about money and ambition mattering. So he fits my guidelines. Again, you are proving me right, haha.
> 
> When did I say you weren't capable of earning your own money? I didn't.
> 
> *Why would I give a damn what his 'social status' is, when it's him alone as a companion that I want?*
> 
> Most women care about social status. No woman wants to date some guy that nobody likes and who is at the bottom of the social ladder.
> 
> *As for the original topic, I'd never settle for anyone. I'd rather be alone than with someone I'm not 100% into. But sexual attraction, for me, is so tied up with personality that the two tend to go hand in hand. I can see how people end up settling, though... I suppose being with anyone, for some, is better than being with no one. Look around these boards, for example, and you'll see so many people saying that they just want a girlfriend/boyfriend... in most cases I'm sure the person wants, above all, a companion that they can share their life with. But sometimes I can't help but get the impression that it wouldn't essentially matter who that girlfriend/boyfriend actually was, so long as they were there, to tick the box so to speak. Isn't that showing a tendency towards settling, in some respects? It's sad to think that settling happens, by both males and females, but genuine affection, I think, is something that would be hard to fake, for any prolonged period of time at least. I really can't imagine being with someone who I didn't genuinely feel attracted to.*
> 
> I think most people settle in some sense. The most popular reason is because of fear of being alone for the rest of their lives. There can be other reasons. One is so they can have a guaranteed sexual partner for life. Another is because they found someone that is "good enough"(enough money, enough ambition, good enough looks). I think some people go out with the opposite sex just to impress people they know and make them jealous.
> 
> As for me, I'm like you. I'd rather be 100% sure I'm in love before I commit to a relationship.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Kon said:


> I think many girls are attracted to personality and of course looks. It couldn't have been my social personality as I had only 1-2 friends and no social life whatsoever, when I met my wife. I am good one to one though, once I get to know a girl.


I think you are selling yourself short. I've read your posts on here, and I'm willing to bet you have at least a decent personality.

1-2 friends is better than no friends at all. I'd consider 1-2 friends a social life.


----------



## Atticus

FadeToOne said:


> Yeah I went shopping for an attitude at the local Gap and they only had this one so....
> 
> I am going about 100% of all my experiences, and the vast majority of the experiences of people I know and things I have read. If you want me to believe that no, it's just a magical dark cloud of relationships horror that has been following me around through the different countries and continents I've lived in my entire life, and that in reality everything is completely different.....I don't even see how I can finish this sentence.


Well then you win, I guess. I'll just go sulk and you can enjoy the, um, well you get to gloat about.......

Well, at least you win.


----------



## mooncake

IcemanKilmer said:


> You can disagree with me all you want. You can tell me how you think I'm wrong all you want. But, the one thing that I ask is that you do not misquote me.
> 
> When have I ever added a word into your quotation so it made it look like you said something you did not. You are basically plagiarizing my writing and it is extremely rude. I ask that you please not twist my quotes anymore.


Plagiarism? Come on :lol If you're happy to make blanket statements about an entire sex (and therefore about me), you should expect to have your words objected to. I find it rude to be told that I like something which I actually don't. By objecting to my addition of the word 'some', you're asserting that we women are all the same, then? I think I have the right to remove myself from the group your quote refers to, and if that means altering it (and clearly indicating that I did, so I'm not really sure why you find such a problem with it, but hey ho...), then so be it. I ask that you please not aim to speak for me when describing what I apparently want, and there won't be a problem.


IcemanKilmer said:


> *My boyfriend isn't a very social person, and has less financial assets than I do.*
> 
> But he does have financial assets, lol. You are proving my point that money matters. I never said the guy has to have more financial assets than the woman. I said that he has to be able contribute cash and/or assets into the relationship so they can live reasonably. Ambition matters too.


Perhaps I could have worded that better, then. He basically is able only to contribute towards paying the bills through using the money his mother gives him per month to pay for his half of our necessities. So no, he doesn't exactly have financial assets of his own. Although I have spare left over from savings, he doesn't. Most people (notice I say most, not all... 'cause you know, individuals have different likes and dislikes and turn ons and turn offs) in this day and age do want their partner to contribute financially, so I don't see the need for some people to keep harping on about how women want a man with money? Seems a given to me that a man/woman would want their partner to be contributing equally, and vice versa. The way it's worded just makes females sound like golddiggers, and not all of us are.


IcemanKilmer said:


> *Do I, and all the other females who consistently tell posters like you that you're wrong, not count as women or something?*
> 
> You are a woman, and they are women. I never said any of you don't count as women. I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that just because I disagree with something you say that it means I don't think you are a woman?


Yes, and as women it's quite frustrating for us to give our opinions and for them to be time and time disregarded. Whenever you say "women want this" that's what you're doing; ignoring or just plain disregarding our contributions. If we, as women, are disagreeing with what you're saying about us, doesn't that flag up some issues with your blanket statements?


> You're asking me to do something you'd like, yet in your post you put extra words in my quote so it sounds like i said something I didn't. Don't you think that's a little hypocritical to be asking for me to do something you want, when you abuse my words in my post?


No, not really. There's a difference between correcting someone in response to their false blanket statements about my entire sex (and therefore about me personally... because that's what it comes across as when you constantly say 'women', as if we can all be lumped together) and actually coming out with the things you're saying. Do you really not see the difference?



IcemanKilmer said:


> *Many women, like myself, just want to be with someone who makes them happy. And that happiness comes from enjoying such a person's company, having shared interests... you know, an actual emotional connection, not from assessing how much of a social life they have, or how much money they have in the bank.*
> 
> In order to have an emotional connection, you must speak to each other, which you do. My most important qualification for a man to get a woman was _social personality_ and social life. If you have an emotional connection, you obviously like his _social personality._ So he has the most important quality I listed. Not sure how I'm somehow wrong about that?


Could you define 'social personality' a little more? What's the difference between that and plain 'personality'? I really don't understand the term fully. I like my boyfriend for who he his, because we have shared interests and because we get along. There's just a connection there between us. It has nothing to do with 'social ladders' or what he's like around other people. It's true that you have be somewhat social in order to meet someone, but I disagree that a person's social life is important in any other respect than that (i.e. that it contributes towards/detracts from attractiveness) for many women. A lot of us don't care how many friends a guy has/if he has them, we just care about what he's like, personally. But I'm sorry if I've mis-interpreted you and we're not actually disagreeing about anything.


> *Hard to believe, I know, but it's true. As long as he's happy to pull his weight when it comes to bringing in money and putting it towards the bills, I'm perfectly capable of earning my own, thank you, so why would I be so concerned with that?*
> 
> Lol, exactly: You specifically say he pulls his weight financially! That's exactly what I'm saying about money and ambition mattering. So he fits my guidelines. Again, you are proving me right, haha.
> 
> When did I say you weren't capable of earning your own money? I didn't.


I didn't say you did? I never said ambition didn't matter, to me personally it does. If someone's resigned themselves to never getting a girlfriend because they believe we're all shallow golddiggers, for instance, that's a turn off, yes. A little ambition is an attractive thing to a lot of people, of either sex, I'm not disputing that.


IcemanKilmer said:


> *Why would I give a damn what his 'social status' is, when it's him alone as a companion that I want?*
> 
> Most women care about social status. No woman wants to date some guy that nobody likes and who is at the bottom of the social ladder.


Why would it bother me if he was at the bottom of the social ladder? Where exactly are you getting these ideas from anyway? Are you secretly a woman? Do you have some kind of divine knowledge of these things, are you inside all of our minds? I'm genuinely intrigued. If no one likes someone then perhaps there are valid reasons behind that, but if I like him, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest what other people thought. I'm going out with him, not them after all. Why should it affect our relationship? What benefits would someone being on the higher rungs of the social ladder actually bring to me? None as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, there are men and women out there who are only concerned with grabbing themselves a 'trophy' girlfriend/boyfriend, but do you believe that's what most women are after?



IcemanKilmer said:


> As for me, I'm like you. I'd rather be 100% sure I'm in love before I commit to a relationship.


*shock horror* something we agree on. :lol


----------



## FadeToOne

Atticus said:


> Well then you win, I guess. I'll just go sulk and you can enjoy the, um, well you get to gloat about.......
> 
> Well, at least you win.


There is no "win" here, acknowledging what's going on in the world doesn't mean you have to like or accept it.


----------



## anomalous

Haydsmom2007 said:


> A lot of women go for the guys that are in "high demand" ... guys that put themselves out there.... bartenders for example. They get so much a** it's ridiculous. And why? Because they're a bartender??? *scratches head* it's like girls want to compete for men. The men that get more vagina, get more vagina in return because girls see that he's wanted by every other girl so they go for him. It's not very fair is it? lol.


Ouch, ladies... another one of your own willing to acknowledge that the whole "evolutionary psychology" view of female attraction is valid in a *general* (not universal) sense.

Must suck for those of you still fighting the "we're all so unique and want totally different things!!!" battle, huh.


----------



## Shauna The Dead

I usually refuse to date someone I'm not attracted to. I know it won't work for me so why bother wasting my time and his??


----------



## heroin

mooncake said:


> Seems a given to me that a man/woman would want their partner to be contributing equally, and vice versa.


From what I've seen, nope. I don't know a single guy who insists that his partner bring money into the relationship. On the contrary, I know many who look for women who are not so invested in their careers.


----------



## Perfectionist

Ok I'm not bothering to read most of this thread but to the men here telling us the ways of the world:

I'm confused!

Though not an avid reader of all gender war threads on this forum, I have perused most. I thought women only went for super hot guys. I remember just a few days ago commenting on your concept that a women would not wait around for a man who doesn't immediately "make her panties wet". That we always immediately gloss over all average or below average men, since we can all have our pick of the crop.

But now I hear - we settle? We date men who do not make our panties wet?

No doubt, you see my confusion. So please, which is it? Why can both happen at the same time, when you have taught me all women are one giant identically-thinking entity?

Just an honest question. A bit sarcastic, but still honest.


----------



## viv

^ 



anomalous said:


> This issue is gravely concerning to me.


This reminds me of a woman on the radio who mourned the state of world because of the ever declining quality of chocolate. Oh, CBC, how you amuse me.


----------



## Ivan AG

anomalous said:


> Ouch, ladies... another one of your own willing to acknowledge that the whole "evolutionary psychology" view of female attraction is valid in a *general* (not universal) sense.
> 
> Must suck for those of you still fighting the "we're all so unique and want totally different things!!!" battle, huh.


You have seen *one* example of a woman in this thread to acknowledge your world views, and you jump on it like it's the new gospel.

When you read only what you want, i.e. selective reading, it's expected.


----------



## mooncake

heroin said:


> From what I've seen, nope. I don't know a single guy who insists that his partner bring money into the relationship. On the contrary, I know many who look for women who are not so invested in their careers.


I remember you asking in a thread this very question, and if I remember correctly the replies didn't exactly match up to your prediction that most men wouldn't care. My experience has been that men do want their female partners to be contributing as equally as possible financially. It's obviously something dependent upon culture and personal preference, but certainly not a universal standard.


----------



## anomalous

Ivan AG said:


> You have seen *one* example of a woman in this thread to acknowledge your world views, and you jump on it like it's the new gospel.


No, not like it's the new gospel. But it is a bit more damning than just hearing from another "bitter nice guy" who believes what she said, is it not?

Why would an intelligent female like Mojo say what she did if it there weren't at least some truth to it? What would be in it for her? What incentive would she have, being a female herself, to falsely perceive other females' behavior towards men as being more malicious than it really is?

I'm afraid the most likely explanation is simply that she's observed it in her own female friends and acquaintances; perhaps they've even flat-out admitted (implicitly or explicitly) to it in her presence. Good luck to the white-knighters trying to explain this one away.



> When you read only what you want, i.e. selective reading, it's expected.


Good call. I definitely hadn't come across the 800,000,000 female viewpoints to the contrary, and wasn't aware of their existence. Props for helping me out on that one.


----------



## Harpuia

viv said:


> ^
> 
> This reminds me of a woman on the radio who mourned the state of world because of the ever declining quality of chocolate. Oh, CBC, how you amuse me.


I believe it...


----------



## Atticus

anomalous said:


> No, not like it's the new gospel. But it is a bit more damning than just hearing from another "bitter nice guy" who believes what she said, is it not?
> 
> Why would an intelligent female like Mojo say what she did if it there weren't at least some truth to it? What would be in it for her? What incentive would she have, being a female herself, to falsely perceive other females' behavior towards men as being more malicious than it really is?
> 
> I'm afraid the most likely explanation is simply that she's observed it in her own female friends and acquaintances; perhaps they've even flat-out admitted (implicitly or explicitly) to it in her presence. Good luck to the white-knighters trying to explain this one away.
> 
> Good call. I definitely hadn't come across the 800,000,000 female viewpoints to the contrary, and wasn't aware of their existence. Props for helping me out on that one.


You did have kind of an "aha" moment when responding to Haydsmom2007. You don't respond the same way to the women who speak from their own personal experience that they, frankly, find men like you attractive.

I've said this before, but you seem determined to believe that you can't find hapiness romantically. You seem to want to believe that there is some essential character in women, genetic or socialized or both, which determines what type of man they'll like, and he isn't you.

I commend you for generally expressing this opinion in a considerate way, and for not typically blaming women for what you believe are their unwavering preferences. As an observer, though, your rigid adherence to a belief that isn't worth adhering to is your main obstacle.


----------



## Harpuia

Atticus said:


> You did have kind of an "aha" moment when responding to Haydsmom2007. You don't respond the same way to the women who speak from their own personal experience that they, frankly, find men like you attractive.
> 
> I've said this before, but you seem determined to believe that you can't find hapiness romantically. You seem to want to believe that there is some essential character in women, genetic or socialized or both, which determines what type of man they'll like, and he isn't you.
> 
> I commend you for generally expressing this opinion in a considerate way, and for not typically blaming women for what you believe are their unwavering preferences. As an observer, though, your rigid adherence to a belief that isn't worth adhering to is your main obstacle.


Well, I guess for some of us, a lifetime of hearing it from 99.99% of women one way causes us to think that someone can say anything they want online and pretend it to be true because they never actually have to see that person.

Like people who actually think I'm attractive, but chances are never will get a chance to meet me, so they don't actually have to have the embarrassment to say it to my face. Meanwhile, back in RL, girls look at people like me and shy away a little in disgust.

So I guess it's a matter of "Ok, she thinks I'm attractive when we're 2,000, 5,000, or 20,000 miles away, but what if we were face to face?"


----------



## Atticus

Harpuia said:


> Well, I guess for some of us, a lifetime of hearing it from 99.99% of women one way causes us to think that someone can say anything they want online and pretend it to be true because they never actually have to see that person.
> 
> Like people who actually think I'm attractive, but chances are never will get a chance to meet me, so they don't actually have to have the embarrassment to say it to my face. Meanwhile, back in RL, girls look at people like me and shy away a little in disgust.
> 
> So I guess it's a matter of "Ok, she thinks I'm attractive when we're 2,000, 5,000, or 20,000 miles away, but what if we were face to face?"


What have you heard? Are you talking about your personal experience, or are you comparing yourself to ideals and finding yourself lacking?


----------



## Harpuia

Atticus said:


> What have you heard? Are you talking about your personal experience, or are you comparing yourself to ideals and finding yourself lacking?


Personal experience. I never really had an "ideal" when I was younger, so for the most part I actually had ok self-esteem until my late adolescent years.

Though I'm sure for many guys it's a combination of both.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

mooncake said:


> *Plagiarism? Come on :lol If you're happy to make blanket statements about an entire sex (and therefore about me), you should expect to have your words objected to.*
> 
> Did you read my first sentence? I said it's okay to disagree with eachother's posts, but it's not okay to put a quote that someone else wrote, and add your own words to make the other person's quote look like they said something they did not.
> 
> *I find it rude to be told that I like something which I actually don't. By objecting to my addition of the word 'some', you're asserting that we women are all the same, then?*
> 
> I'm not asserting that all women are the same. I'm saying the majority of women are the same when it comes to what they want out of a guy.
> 
> *I think I have the right to remove myself from the group your quote refers to, and if that means altering it (and clearly indicating that I did, so I'm not really sure why you find such a problem with it, but hey ho...), then so be it. I ask that you please not aim to speak for me when describing what I apparently want, and there won't be a problem.*
> 
> If you are going to remove yourself from the group my quote refers to, then say so in your own words.
> 
> *Perhaps I could have worded that better, then. He basically is able only to contribute towards paying the bills through using the money his mother gives him per month to pay for his half of our necessities. So no, he doesn't exactly have financial assets of his own. Although I have spare left over from savings, he doesn't. Most people (notice I say most, not all... 'cause you know, individuals have different likes and dislikes and turn ons and turn offs) in this day and age do want their partner to contribute financially, so I don't see the need for some people to keep harping on about how women want a man with money?*
> 
> The point is that he does have money to contribute. That was all I was saying, that women want a guy that contribute financially and/or has ambition.
> *
> Seems a given to me that a man/woman would want their partner to be contributing equally, and vice versa. The way it's worded just makes females sound like golddiggers, and not all of us are.*
> 
> This is where many women get defensive, as have you. The truth is that more men tend to not care about what a women can do financially for a relationship. I'm not saying men don't care about if a woman can bring in money, I'm just saying there are much more men that don't care how much money a woman is bringing in.
> 
> You can't tell me there aren't more female golddiggers than male golddiggers. That statistic is totally lopsided, with women being the golddiggers the majority of the time in that comparison, by far.
> 
> *Yes, and as women it's quite frustrating for us to give our opinions and for them to be time and time disregarded. Whenever you say "women want this" that's what you're doing; ignoring or just plain disregarding our contributions. If we, as women, are disagreeing with what you're saying about us, doesn't that flag up some issues with your blanket statements?*
> 
> Disregarded? Take a look around these forums. The majority of posters are feminists that are agreeing with you.
> 
> If anyone is complaining about being disregarded, it should be me. But yet, I'm not.
> 
> *No, not really. There's a difference between correcting someone in response to their false blanket statements about my entire sex (and therefore about me personally... because that's what it comes across as when you constantly say 'women', as if we can all be lumped together) and actually coming out with the things you're saying. Do you really not see the difference?*
> 
> There's a difference between correcting someone's mistake in your own words as opposed to plagiarizing their quote and making it seem like they said something they didn't.
> 
> If you don't like what I'm writing, then either disagree with me, don't say anything, or hit that ignore button. All those things are fair and honest.
> 
> I must admit, you are beating this issue to death, and it's getting to the point where I really don't care what you do anymore, lol. It's not like you are actually going to consider respecting my requests, judging from your response here.
> 
> *Could you define 'social personality' a little more? What's the difference between that and plain 'personality'?*
> 
> A likable personality is a social personality. I've noticed that if a general consensus of people tend to like a person's personality, then that person has a social personality.
> 
> Sadly, there are some people that are just born with super anti-social personalities. These people tend to be extremely quiet and nobody likes them.
> 
> I think that someone can be shy and still have social personality. But, it seems like the higher a guy's anxiety gets, the worse his personality gets.
> 
> I'd say I'm a good example of someone with a terrible social personality. People like me are so quiet that no women get to know us. My extremely shy personality doesn't suit me for attracting women. I think that's how I understand that personality matters. I'm a walking example of what women don't want personality-wise.
> 
> *I like my boyfriend for who he his, because we have shared interests and because we get along. There's just a connection there between us. It has nothing to do with 'social ladders' or what he's like around other people.*
> 
> Sadly, most women care about what men have, not just who they are inside. Whether you have friends and whether people like you; that stuff matters when women are considering going out with a guy.
> 
> A guy with zero friends and a crummy personality like me, usually struggles with attracting women.
> 
> *Why would it bother me if he was at the bottom of the social ladder? *
> 
> Because it tells you whether people like him or not. Why would you want to be with a loser that nobody likes?
> *
> Where exactly are you getting these ideas from anyway?*
> 
> Observation and reading. I grew up with a sister around my age and a mother. When you live with women every day, you pick up on stuff. My sister would have friends over, too.
> 
> It wasn't just that, but when I was in my college years I was around women a lot.
> 
> Add that stuff up, and a lot of it is common sense. Take into factor that women have more options than men because of gender roles, and you see that women can be more picky, and are more picky than men.
> 
> What really sucks about women taking big strides to be independent, is that personality of the men they consider dating matters more than ever in this century. Women aren't just marrying guys for their money now, but they have the option of being single for longer with the more money the women have. It's because of this that women can afford to be more picky about finding a guy that is socially acceptable.
> 
> *If no one likes someone then perhaps there are valid reasons behind that, but if I like him, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest what other people thought. I'm going out with him, not them after all. Why should it affect our relationship?*
> 
> Unless you both are hermits living under a rock, you will be showing eachother off to everyone. Family, friends, acquaintances. Most women care what these people think about who they are with. I think that women worry more about stuff like this than men do. Most men are more about looks and sex, but I won't get into that right now. That's a whole separate discussion.
> 
> *What benefits would someone being on the higher rungs of the social ladder actually bring to me? *
> 
> Respect from people you know, even strangers on the street. Possible jealousy from people you know + society.
> 
> It feels good for a woman to hear, "Oh you are with Jim? Everyone seems to like him and he's such a great guy" from her friends or family.
> 
> Women tend to search for confidence more than guys do. Having a socially respected man in their life boosts that confidence that they so often search for.


----------



## Jessie203

I tried it once... we got along great as friends and I had a crush on his personality but looks wise he did absolutely nothing for me.. not that hes hideous but for w.e reason I couldnt look at him and feel it.. so after sparkless kiss on a date i fessed up that i wanted us to stay friends and he was bit upset but years later we both are still friends and its no biggie.. hes got a gf now and hes happy... im single and happy... better to be honest and not settle.. nobody wants to be thought of as the person u settled for ... thats cruel


----------



## mooncake

IcemanKilmer said:


> ...


To be honest, I can't really be bothered to carry on this discussion any more... it just does turn into a repetitive exchange since neither of us is clearly prepared to alter in our views. I'll just put in a final word by saying that there are a lot of nice women out there. I'm not saying that it's easy to meet them, but we're really not all concerned about how many friends you have, how social you are, and so on (I couldn't disagree more, by the way, about how many friends a guy has or his 'social status' being beneficial to me or somehow boosting my self-esteem... I really couldn't care less, I would probably be _more_ attracted actually, by the fact that he had no/fewer friends than many, since we'd have something in common. But I won't go into that...). Perhaps you happen to live in a ****ty area where people are generally fairly shallow, in which case I'm sorry for that, but I must admit, none of the females I know are as you describe at all. Hence my urge to speak out against those 'facts'.

Everyone has something to offer someone and I just wish the guys here would realise that not every female has some unattainable set of standards for a potential partner. People don't give themselves enough credit sometimes. Believe me, I'm not arguing against views such as yours for the fun of it, I'm just trying to combat those negative attitudes that I really feel aren't as realistic as is made out. And of course it's hard not to get defensive when generalised statements are thrown around which don't match up to my own perceptions at all. Imagine if I started saying a ton of things about the male gender, in factual terms, which you felt were utterly wrong. A simple 'some women', as anal as it sounds, would go far when speaking on such topics as this one. It's the seeming inability to acknowledge that people are, ultimately, individuals that is hard to stomach.

I must admit, I do struggle to argue against some male's complaints that they can't find a girlfriend, when said people often display such anti-female, bitter attitudes, which let's face it, aren't ever going to be attractive to anyone. Once someone's settled themselves into that mindeset then yes, it is going to be very hard for them to find a girlfriend. The fact that there are males on this board who have girlfriends, however, proves that it's not impossible to have one whilst having SA. Therefore not all women can possibly be as you describe. Really, I'm sorry that some males have had such bad experiences with women so far in their lives, but I wish they wouldn't judge us all based on others. Throughout pretty much my entire school life I was treated like **** by the majority of males around me, but still I realised that it wouldn't be fair to lump all of you together into some mass entity based on that experience. Not all ladies care about their boyfriend being some outgoing, socially confident person... seriously. But if you want to carry on believing that, then fine, I guess there isn't much I can do.


----------



## Perfectionist

I still would quite seriously like an answer to this question.



Perfectionist said:


> Ok I'm not bothering to read most of this thread but to the men here telling us the ways of the world:
> 
> I'm confused!
> 
> Though not an avid reader of all gender war threads on this forum, I have perused most. I thought women only went for super hot guys. I remember just a few days ago commenting on your concept that a women would not wait around for a man who doesn't immediately "make her panties wet". That we always immediately gloss over all average or below average men, since we can all have our pick of the crop.
> 
> But now I hear - we settle? We date men who do not make our panties wet?
> 
> No doubt, you see my confusion. So please, which is it? Why can both happen at the same time, when you have taught me all women are one giant identically-thinking entity?
> 
> Just an honest question. A bit sarcastic, but still honest.


----------



## Selbbin

Perfectionist said:


> I still would quite seriously like an answer to this question.


It's just frustration. There's no logic to it because it's not really valid. Once they get the courage or opportunity to step out and experience the romantic world they will see differently, not just from an observational or academic position. I have been lucky enough (or courageous enough ) to put myself out there and understand things in a new context.

That's why I disagree with many of the frustrated views. But I understand them. I stood in their spot, and thought the same things.

The difference is, I don't blame girls for my problem in finding a girlfriend. I blame myself, simply because I make a terrible boyfriend and don't want them to have to deal with that. I think it's unfair.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

mooncake said:


> I must admit, I do struggle to argue against some male's complaints that they can't find a girlfriend, when said people often display such anti-female, bitter attitudes, which let's face it, aren't ever going to be attractive to anyone. Once someone's settled themselves into that mindeset then yes, it is going to be very hard for them to find a girlfriend.


The reason many males on this website struggle with getting g/fs has nothing to do with their beliefs about women. It has everything to do with the fact that they are shy. I think that's the biggest misconception women have about shy men who complain about the dating world.


----------



## Perfectionist

IcemanKilmer said:


> The reason many males on this website struggle with getting g/fs has nothing to do with their beliefs about women.


As a female, I suggest you reconsider this answer. I sincerely feel it plays a big part in your struggles, even though many of you try and hide your anger and bitterness the odd time you do interact with women. We can sniff it out like angry cougars smell fear.

I don't understand how you can be so sure that shyness is your problem, and not your resentment.


----------



## Perfectionist

^And yet, not everyone on this site is single. It is this point which makes me think your bitterness towards women plays a part - why can some shy men get girlfriends and others get none? The views on women differ greatly here, and I think men who are more open to the idea that hey maybe women aren't to blame ENTIRELY for their lack of romance have a level of openness and approachability which women respond to. 

I have admitted numerous times on this site women can have flaws, and distinctly remember agreeing with you personally on some points of your previous arguments. In fact, I am firmly on the man's side of the fence in terms of you guys having it harder in starting a relationship than women. I have also said this numerous times. And yet, my statement gets disregarded just because I am female.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Perfectionist said:


> As a female, I suggest you reconsider this answer. I sincerely feel it plays a big part in your struggles, even though many of you try and hide your anger and bitterness the odd time you do interact with women. We can sniff it out like angry cougars smell fear.
> 
> I don't understand how you can be so sure that shyness is your problem, and not your resentment.


Yeah, women are such mind readers. They can just look at me and pick up that I don't like how they have it easy....lol, come on.

The only reason you are trying to say this stuff is to defend your sex. Why can't you just accept that some men fail with women because they are shy. There are millions of men that go their life without girlfriends due to shyness. I don't see why that is so hard for you to believe.


----------



## hickorysmoked

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a difference between being shy, being socially awkward, and having social anxiety/phobia?


----------



## IcemanKilmer

[*QUOTE=Perfectionist;1058982187]^And yet, not everyone on this site is single. It is this point which makes me think your bitterness towards women plays a part - why can some shy men get girlfriends and others get none?*

Because some guys are shyer than others. Same reason some women can't get boyfriends.

*The views on women differ greatly here, and I think men who are more open to the idea that hey maybe women aren't to blame ENTIRELY for their lack of romance have a level of openness and approachability which women respond to. *

Believe it or not, I blame society and God for my lack of romance. I also partially blame myself.

*I have admitted numerous times on this site women can have flaws, and distinctly remember agreeing with you personally on some points of your previous arguments. In fact, I am firmly on the man's side of the fence in terms of you guys having it harder in starting a relationship than women. I have also said this numerous times. And yet, my statement gets disregarded just because I am female.*

Yeah, I agree that it's harder for men to start relationships with women. I recognize that you are saying that now. Your point is regarded.


----------



## CopadoMexicano

Im the exception to the rule so it doesnt matter/


----------



## Perfectionist

IcemanKilmer said:


> Why can't you just accept that some men fail with women because they are shy. There are millions of men that go their life without girlfriends due to shyness. I don't see why that is so hard for you to believe.


It's not hard for me to believe. In fact, I have sympathized with shy men on this site for years, as I (will once again say) do agree it is very difficult for shy men to get dates as they are routinely expected to approach women. Again, I am agreeing with you on this point. Again.

What I am saying is that shyness, while difficult for both sexes with dating, CAN be overcome. This is shown by the shy men on this site with girlfriends/wives. This is because some women don't mind it OR even like shy men. Not all, but some. Also, this is because a few women, such as myself, are comfortable doing the initiating.

This leads to my belief that your bitterness might be playing a part in your lack of dating life. You have one setback, as we all do: shyness. I am saying I think your resentment of the entire female gender can also cause you setbacks. I don't see why _that _is hard to believe either. I am telling you, from a female perspective, that it is extremely offputting, and if you want to work on your success with women, try working on hating us less. That is all.


----------



## Selbbin

hickorysmoked said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a difference between being shy, being socially awkward, and having social anxiety/phobia?


Absolutely. I'm technically not shy, but super anxious. I want to be more outgoing, but fear consumes me. Which is what makes it so frustrating. When I get past my anxiety, I am very outgoing. It's kind of like someone who loves cats being allergic. You want a cat, you just can't have one. Or like someone who loves running being crippled.


----------



## Selbbin

I think resentment is an excuse for some men not to deal with their shyness and/or anxiety.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

hickorysmoked said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a difference between being shy, being socially awkward, and having social anxiety/phobia?


No. I think anyone who is shy is socially awkward and has social anxiety.


----------



## Perfectionist

IcemanKilmer said:


> Because some guys are shyer than others. Same reason some women can't get boyfriends.


Thank you for acknowledging that every single female on the planet isn't capable of easily attracting a mate. Shockingly, this is basically all we are looking for during these gender based arguments - simply the understanding that hey, we aren't all on a pedestal and it tough out there for some of us as well.

It is the constant lack of this acknowledgement that upsets many of us.


----------



## Selbbin

IcemanKilmer said:


> No. I think anyone who is shy is socially awkward and has social anxiety.


I strongly disagree. That's simplifying it way too much.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Perfectionist said:


> This leads to my belief that your bitterness might be playing a part in your lack of dating life. You have one setback, as we all do: shyness. I am saying I think your resentment of the entire female gender can also cause you setbacks. I don't see why _that _is hard to believe either. I am telling you, from a female perspective, that it is extremely offputting, and if you want to work on your success with women, try working on hating us less. That is all.


I know you won't believe this, and most other people won't, but I don't even care that I don't have a dating life. I just like debating this stuff, lol.

It's because of that, that I'm not bitter towards women.

The only thing I don't like is that society is designed for shy men to fail.

Is that an excuse for me to give up? Of course not. I'm still job-hunting, and I'd love to have a job I enjoy and have my own apartment some day. I'd like to have friends again some day as well.

I'm not bitter, and definitely don't come across as bitter. A few women do know me IRL, and if you talked to these women, I guarantee you they would tell you I'm a nice guy that treats everyone with respect, regardless of sex, race, or whoever they are.


----------



## hickorysmoked

Selbbin said:


> Absolutely. I'm technically not shy, but super anxious. I want to be more outgoing, but fear consumes me. Which is what makes it so frustrating. When I get past my anxiety, I am very outgoing. It's kind of like someone who loves cats being allergic. You want a cat, you just can't have one. Or like someone who loves running being crippled.


THANK YOU!!!
With that being said, I don't think the terms shy and socially anxious should be used interchangeably. Genuinely shy guys are normally comfortable in their own skin, and accept what they are, just quiet and reserved. Socially anxious guys i.e guys on this site, are ANXIOUS! This debate is so stupid. Yes we have to go up to girls, get over the sh*t already. Stop bashing women because you are anxious about approaching them! It's not their fault! Almost all of the girlfriends and sexual encounters I have had have been with girls who approached me first, and i am as awkward as they come! I can sense when women are uncomfortable with me, but i dont blame them, I know its a problem I have, and I just learn from my mistakes! I can't stand these dudes who bash on women because they have a problem. If you didnt have anxiety, you would probably be approaching women as well! The guys who are just shy but are comfortable with themselves will more often than not end up with a girlfriend sometime soon. They don't blame ANYBODY for their problems. You're not shy, you're anxious!

Edit: I may have gotten a definition or two mixed up, but I hope people can see what I'm trying to say!


----------



## hickorysmoked

IcemanKilmer said:


> No. I think anyone who is shy is socially awkward and has social anxiety.


I can't agree there. Anxiety to me is a crippling fear. Shyness makes your cheeks turn red and you stutter a bit; it doesn't make you want to run away from a situation and jump off of the tallest building you can find.


----------



## MojoCrunch

IcemanKilmer said:


> I'm not bitter, and definitely don't come across as bitter. A few women do know me IRL, and if you talked to these women, I guarantee you they would tell you I'm a nice guy that treats everyone with respect, regardless of sex, race, or whoever they are.


I'm sure you are a very nice person in real life. I don't doubt that. Online, however... you definitely come across as bitter in some of your posts that I have read (which I enjoy reading to see other viewpoints on these gender-based issues). Sorry man....just sayin' :hide At that same time it might not be bitterness, but I definitely sense a frustration.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

MojoCrunch said:


> I'm sure you are a very nice person in real life. I don't doubt that. Online, however... you definitely come across as bitter in some of your posts that I have read (which I enjoy reading to see other viewpoints on these gender-based issues). Sorry man....just sayin' :hide At that same time it might not be bitterness, but I definitely sense a frustration.


I'm just a passionate guy. If you started talking about NBA Basketball and said the Miami Heat aren't going to win their series with the Celtics, I'd get as intense as I did on the "women wanting guys with personality" debate.


----------



## Selbbin

hickorysmoked said:


> Edit: I may have gotten a definition or two mixed up, but I hope people can see what I'm trying to say!


I get what you're trying to say. It's a bit extreme on the other end though, but I think that is born from frustrated passion.


----------



## Selbbin

Miami Heat aren't going to win their series with the Celtics.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Selbbin said:


> Miami Heat aren't going to win their series with the Celtics.


How dare you! :steam


----------



## anomalous

IcemanKilmer said:


> I'm not bitter, and definitely don't come across as bitter. A few women do know me IRL, and if you talked to these women, I guarantee you they would tell you I'm a nice guy that treats everyone with respect, regardless of sex, race, or whoever they are.


Exactly the same for me, despite my presence on the forum here. I absolutely guarantee that virtually none of the women who know me IRL would suspect I'm on here railing against the dating game and being accused of misogyny on a regular basis. I'd bet my life on it.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the "bitterness" is *NOT* the reason for my failure. And, quite frankly, it is insulting when that line gets whipped out in these discussions. You were dead on the mark in your response to Perfectionist: women say this (that we're alone because we're bitter and spiteful) simply as an easy excuse for our suffering. End of ****ing story. Honestly, I'd appreciate if she -- and any other women who've toed that line -- would retract that statement.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

anomalous said:


> Exactly the same for me, despite my presence on the forum here. I absolutely guarantee that virtually none of the women who know me IRL would suspect I'm on here railing against the dating game and being accused of misogyny on a regular basis. I'd bet my life on it.
> 
> Therefore, it stands to reason that the "bitterness" is *NOT* the reason for my failure. And, quite frankly, it is insulting when that line gets whipped out in these discussions. You were dead on the mark in your response to Perfectionist: women say this (that we're alone because we're bitter and spiteful) simply as an easy excuse for our suffering. End of ****ing story. Honestly, I'd appreciate if she -- and any other women who've toed that line -- would retract that statement.


Dude, you are reading my mind right now. I was thinking everything you just wrote here. I just couldn't come up with the words. Thank you for speaking for me.

We should put this quote you just wrote on a plaque on a wall somewhere. That's how true your words were.


----------



## anomalous

Perfectionist said:


> I still would quite seriously like an answer to this question.


Fair question. I suppose our (my) viewpoint is a bit complex in this regard. Perhaps the dreaded term "hypergamy" best sums it up. I believe that the majority of women are *attracted to* the man of high social status; popularity; smooth social skills; the guy all her friends will be jealous of. However, that doesn't preclude them from settling for lesser men in the absence of an immediate option fitting that description. Indeed, I experienced it myself, as I briefly described in my OP. We were both college freshman who came from out-of-state, and she didn't have many other friends, so she clung to me when I expressed romantic interest -- despite her actually seeing me as only a friend. Later on, when the option presented itself, she jumped ship for a guy who was more popular, taller, and more assertive; despite also being (if I may say so myself) considerably less intelligent, less considerate, and having fewer mutual interests. So in that particular case, my theory regarding what *attracts* women seemed to be vindicated -- yet, she did still "settle" for me, the weakling, for a period of time. Thus, my concern and this thread.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Selbbin said:


> It's just frustration. There's no logic to it because it's not really valid. Once they get the courage or opportunity to step out and experience the romantic world they will see differently, not just from an observational or academic position. I have been lucky enough (or courageous enough ) to put myself out there and understand things in a new context.
> 
> That's why I disagree with many of the frustrated views. But I understand them. I stood in their spot, and thought the same things.
> 
> The difference is, I don't blame girls for my problem in finding a girlfriend. I blame myself, simply because I make a terrible boyfriend and don't want them to have to deal with that. I think it's unfair.


Just so you know, I have had the courage and opportunity to experience the dating world. I had a g/f before. It was only one g/f, but I have been in the field. So don't give me that, "oh he's just on the sidelines all the time looking in from the outside" talk.


----------



## Selbbin

IcemanKilmer said:


> Just so you know, I have had the courage and opportunity to experience the dating world. I had a g/f before. It was only one g/f, but I have been in the field. So don't give me that, "oh he's just on the sidelines all the time looking in from the outside" talk.


I agree. I'm saying that about some guys, not all. I don't believe in black and white situations. But what I said DOES apply so some of the guys on here.


----------



## CopadoMexicano

If it wasnt for the computer i wouldnt be outside its screen when it comes to the level of skills I have with women. same goes for all the sa community and I think this pick up artist sums it up for me pretty well: Also known as Wbafc way below average frustrated chump. usually has sa low self esteem low confidence nervousness around women or people. etc


Is a virgin and thinks women should be "respected".
Has never kissed a woman in his life, doesn't know how.
Is sexually repressed in someway; doesn't understand how guys get laid and thinks its _wrong_ to **** women, even if he wants to.
Couldn't get laid in ***** house with $5,000 in his pocket.
Gets his nails "colored" in order to feel (at least once in his life) what it would be like if a chick was spanking his monkey for him.
Becomes uneasy or embarrassed when talking about sex*»*. Thinks thongs are gross.
Sings along to the lyrics of AFC songs out loud and watches way too many Hollywood romantic comedies.
Gets sweaty and nervous if a woman even looks at him.
Believes his problem is he hasn't "blossomed" yet
...or worse, doesn't know he has a problem.
Jacks off to Japanese comics.
Thinks "be yourself" actually means "be yourself".
Has had at least 10 crushes on chicks he's never talked to, and is well on his way to 5 more
...before finally realizing he might have an issue (that he hasn't yet met the "right girl").
Thinks players exist only in fantasy...
...if he even knows what a player is.
Thinks the character "Ross" on the TV Show "Friends" is a player


----------



## Ape in space

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Thinks the character "Ross" on the TV Show "Friends" is a player


Well, he did have sex like a million times.


----------



## Selbbin

Ape in space said:


> Well, he did have sex like a million times.


And got married a lot.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Ross was outgoing and extremely good-looking. That would be weird if he wasn't a ladies' man.


----------



## heroin

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Is a virgin and thinks women should be "respected".


Yes and no. Respect is earned, not demanded.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Has never kissed a woman in his life, doesn't know how.


True.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Is sexually repressed in someway; doesn't understand how guys get laid and thinks its _wrong_ to **** women, even if he wants to.


I am extremely shameless and if there weren't consequences for my shamelessness, I'd be yet more so. Not repressed.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Couldn't get laid in ***** house with $5,000 in his pocket.


True.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Gets his nails "colored" in order to feel (at least once in his life) what it would be like if a chick was spanking his monkey for him.


I did colour my nails as a teen, but it wasn't for that reason...



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Becomes uneasy or embarrassed when talking about sex*»*. Thinks thongs are gross.


Me = shameless. I am comfortable talking about the vilest of sex acts.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Sings along to the lyrics of AFC songs out loud and watches way too many Hollywood romantic comedies.


I do have a preference for downbeat and sad sounding music. But it also has to be heavy. Movies just bore me.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Gets sweaty and nervous if a woman even looks at him.


Nope.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Believes his problem is he hasn't "blossomed" yet


The blossoming is long over. The withering is in progress. I am old.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> ...or worse, doesn't know he has a problem.


It's quite clear there is a problem considering the lack of romantic success.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Jacks off to Japanese comics.


Don't knock it till you try it. Japanese comics open a new world of depravity that you never knew existed. 



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Thinks "be yourself" actually means "be yourself".


Sadly, yes. I am incapable of "not being myself".



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Has had at least 10 crushes on chicks he's never talked to, and is well on his way to 5 more


Nope



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Thinks players exist only in fantasy...


Nah, I don't think that.



MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> Thinks the character "Ross" on the TV Show "Friends" is a player


Worst. Show. Ever. Except that brunette in it. I'd sometimes sit through an episode just to stare at her.


----------



## MojoCrunch

anomalous said:


> Honestly, I'd appreciate if she -- and any other women who've toed that line -- would retract that statement.


Absolutely not. I'm not going to retract that statement at all because there really are some people on here that are bitter. Not you specifically. People that can't get over complexes or whatever and it ruins their relationships. I had this very problem in my past and obviously it was why I had periods where no one wanted to date me. Hell, I don't blame them now that I reflect on my behavior back then! I'm not the type to blame others about why no one will date me because I have no ability to control how another person perceives me.


----------



## Catherine Cavatica

CeilingStarer said:


> I hate the whole settling thing too. I'd rather not be in a relationship.


Me too. I need to be totally attracted to the person or I can't be happy in a relationship with them. I know that seems superficial but it's how I feel. I would feel like I was 'settling' for them otherwise and would always want other men. I believe we all deserve to be with 'the one' we really want. Honestly if I can't have this I don't know what I'll do....


----------



## anomalous

MojoCrunch said:


> Absolutely not. I'm not going to retract that statement at all because there really are some people on here that are bitter. Not you specifically. People that can't get over complexes or whatever and it ruins their relationships. I had this very problem in my past and obviously it was why I had periods where no one wanted to date me. Hell, I don't blame them now that I reflect on my behavior back then! I'm not the type to blame others about why no one will date me because I have no ability to control how another person perceives me.


Why are you convinced that your bitterness was the reason for why no one wanted to date you? Did you put it on display for all men who breached your 10-foot radius to see?

It might be a bit more fair, and less disingenuous, if you want to claim that guys like me aren't getting anywhere because we choose not to approach women (partially a result of bitterness). What really gets my blood boiling is this notion that girls somehow _know_ I harbor bitterness towards women within 30 seconds of seeing or meeting me, even if they never hear me discuss the topic of dating and girls. Hey, I know y'all can read body language and everything, but you ain't _that_ good.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

anomalous said:


> Why are you convinced that your bitterness was the reason for why no one wanted to date you? Did you put it on display for all men who breached your 10-foot radius to see?
> 
> It might be a bit more fair, and less disingenuous, if you want to claim that guys like me aren't getting anywhere because we choose not to approach women (partially a result of bitterness). What really gets my blood boiling is this notion that girls somehow _know_ I harbor bitterness towards women within 30 seconds of seeing or meeting me, even if they never hear me discuss the topic of dating and girls. Hey, I know y'all can read body language and everything, but you ain't _that_ good.


The women on here aren't much different than the majority of women in the real world:

They don't want to admit that most women are shallow enough to exclude an SAD (Social Anxiety Disorder) guy or socially awkward guy from their dating world, and even exclude him from their social world, just because he is anxious or awkward.


----------



## MojoCrunch

anomalous said:


> Why are you convinced that your bitterness was the reason for why no one wanted to date you? Did you put it on display for all men who breached your 10-foot radius to see?
> 
> It might be a bit more fair, and less disingenuous, if you want to claim that guys like me aren't getting anywhere because we choose not to approach women (partially a result of bitterness). What really gets my blood boiling is this notion that girls somehow _know_ I harbor bitterness towards women within 30 seconds of seeing or meeting me, even if they never hear me discuss the topic of dating and girls. Hey, I know y'all can read body language and everything, but you ain't _that_ good.


Well, maybe not bitterness but I had a very negative attitude in my past that really showed on the outside. We obviously don't notice things that we do, so I did not realize how I acted at the time. Ever since I have changed that men respond to me a lot better - not just in the 'dating' part but even in the process of just becoming friends.

And no I did not insinuate that I automatically KNOW you have bitterness. Have no idea where you even got that. I don't know you in real life. But there are definitely some bitter people on here that play the blame game as an excuse as opposed to changing their mindset. Or it seems that way because you get 5-7 posts of them rattling the same thing off like a tape recorder. People have to accept that sometimes it's not the other person but yeah, sometimes it really is YOU (not YOU as in you, but you know what I mean :lol). This goes for both men and women.



> They don't want to admit that most women are shallow enough to exclude an SAD (Social Anxiety Disorder) guy or socially awkward guy from their dating world, and even exclude him from their social world, just because he is anxious or awkward.


Hey, I don't know who the eff has SAD in real life or not. People take things by face value and that's how things are. If I see a guy and it seems like he doesn't like me (this could be due to his SA, even though he probably didn't mean it like that at all) then my brain tells me to back the f*** off. He's just not interested. Anyway, relationships are complicated and unpredictable things. That's why I don't really feel like trying to understand or explain them anymore. Anything goes!

Anyway, I feel as if I've gone far off topic.


----------



## stranger25

What's your take on a guy such as myself. Who is 20 years old and never had even female friends or aqcuaintances. Or interaction. Who is ignored by women everywhere. What's your opinion on that. How's it feel to hurt someone like this?


----------



## anomalous

MojoCrunch said:


> And no I did not insinuate that I automatically KNOW you have bitterness. Have no idea where you even got that. I don't know you in real life. But there are definitely some bitter people on here that play the blame game as an excuse as opposed to changing their mindset. Or it seems that way because you get 5-7 posts of them rattling the same thing off like a tape recorder. People have to accept that sometimes it's not the other person but yeah, sometimes it really is YOU (not YOU as in you, but you know what I mean :lol). This goes for both men and women.


Not to beat this horse to a bloody pulp, but just to be clear, I'm talking about my (and other SAS males') interactions with women IRL -- not our interactions on this board. Of course it's easy for women on SAS to see that I'm bitter; I make no bones about it, because it's an anonymous forum that I have no real stake in and I can get away with it.

What I specifically object to is the claim that women IRL can subliminally "pick up on" shy males' bitterness toward women, and so proceed to reject or ignore said shy males largely due to that perceived bitterness -- as opposed to rejecting or ignoring them simply because they're awkward, timid, and sexually unappealing. This is a classic strawman, and likely originates from women who are in denial that they hold what could potentially be seen as "shallow" preferences. I like to use this analogy: what if I said that I really don't like to date fat women... and that the reason is because they're all so bitter toward men? Would you take my noble, cerebral justification at face value, or be a bit suspicious?

That said, I think you're talking about something different, and I haven't seen you make this claim yourself. But a lot of other posters *have* made the particular argument I just described, and it needs to stop.


----------



## Atticus

anomalous said:


> Not to beat this horse to a bloody pulp, but just to be clear, I'm talking about my (and other SAS males') interactions with women IRL -- not our interactions on this board. Of course it's easy for women on SAS to see that I'm bitter; I make no bones about it, because it's an anonymous forum that I have no real stake in and I can get away with it.
> 
> What I specifically object to is the claim that women IRL can subliminally "pick up on" shy males' bitterness toward women, and so proceed to reject or ignore said shy males largely due to that perceived bitterness -- as opposed to rejecting or ignoring them simply because they're awkward, timid, and sexually unappealing. This is a classic strawman, and likely originates from women who are in denial that they hold what could potentially be seen as "shallow" preferences. I like to use this analogy: what if I said that I really don't like to date fat women... and that the reason is because they're all so bitter toward men? Would you take my noble, cerebral justification at face value, or be a bit suspicious?
> 
> That said, I think you're talking about something different, and I haven't seen you make this claim yourself. But a lot of other posters *have* made the particular argument I just described, and it needs to stop.


Your insistance that people have to "stop" putting forth an argument you don't like makes me think you have more than an academic interest in this topic. I think you've said otherwise, but as an observer of your comments and icemankilmer's and Harpia, ad to some extent stranger 25, I think you guys would like to feel better about your situations. You don't seem to feel all that good about it.

Again, as an observer it looks to me like you want women to admit that it's hopeless for you. Stranger seems to want them to apologize for setting out to harm him. That seems curious and absolutely futile and pointless.

Some women on here who have been extraordinarily patient and thoughtful in their respones seem to have angered you. You're off base.

Stop expecting them to confirm your sef defeating hypothesis. Stop trying, obliquely as you may be going about it, to change the way women think. Stop focusing on some essential quality yu think all women possess, and which must align with some essential quality you lack, in order to have a relationship. Just stop.

People focus on your attitude, the way it may or may not look to others IRL, and the way it definitely shapes your behavior, because you have some control over that. You have no control over what biology or society or past experiences do to shape women's wants and desires. None.

In tending to your attitude, thoughts and feelings you may make yourself more attractive, and that may lead to a relationship. If not, you're still more happy, content.


----------



## Perfectionist

anomalous said:


> What I specifically object to is the claim that women IRL can subliminally "pick up on" shy males' bitterness toward women, and so proceed to reject or ignore said shy males largely due to that perceived bitterness -- as opposed to rejecting or ignoring them simply because they're awkward, timid, and sexually unappealing.


I was not saying this. I was saying your bitterness might be a drawback in ADDITION to your shyness. Shyness is, of course, very difficult to overcome and a huge hinderance in the dating world. I do not think women can subliminally pick up on bitterness - I think it might come across in conversations with women without you realizing it. That's all. For the women that are willing to overlook shyness, this trait might be unappealing once they start talking with a bitter and resentful shy man.

I am not dismissing the difficulty shyness brings to dating in any way.


----------



## Harpuia

Atticus said:


> Your insistance that people have to "stop" putting forth an argument you don't like makes me think you have more than an academic interest in this topic. I think you've said otherwise, but as an observer of your comments and icemankilmer's and Harpia, ad to some extent stranger 25, I think you guys would like to feel better about your situations. You don't seem to feel all that good about it.
> 
> Again, as an observer it looks to me like you want women to admit that it's hopeless for you. Stranger seems to want them to apologize for setting out to harm him. That seems curious and absolutely futile and pointless.


Don't really need confirmation. I actually had pretty ok self-esteem about my looks until I was told such on a regular basis throughout the latter part of high school and college. It's been 1 year since I left college and last I checked, it's not like I've grown any prettier or anything.



> Some women on here who have been extraordinarily patient and thoughtful in their respones seem to have angered you. You're off base.
> 
> Stop expecting them to confirm your sef defeating hypothesis. Stop trying, obliquely as you may be going about it, to change the way women think. Stop focusing on some essential quality yu think all women possess, and which must align with some essential quality you lack, in order to have a relationship. Just stop.


I don't think it's my attractiveness so much as it is my ethnicity and other things like my personality that seem to put more out. I don't know where you get that I thought my beliefs of not getting a relationship were solely on my looks. I think looks is a factor, but a fairly small one.



> People focus on your attitude, the way it may or may not look to others IRL, and the way it definitely shapes your behavior, because you have some control over that. You have no control over what biology or society or past experiences do to shape women's wants and desires. None.
> 
> In tending to your attitude, thoughts and feelings you may make yourself more attractive, and that may lead to a relationship. If not, you're still more happy, content.


I don't tend to meet girls face-to-face unless I am feeling in a good mood that day. I stay away from people when I'm feeling negative. So usually I don't feel negative those days until I get crude and blunt remarks as to why I'm undesirable to the said person.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Perfectionist said:


> I was not saying this. I was saying your bitterness might be a drawback in ADDITION to your shyness. Shyness is, of course, very difficult to overcome and a huge hinderance in the dating world. I do not think women can subliminally pick up on bitterness - I think it might come across in conversations with women without you realizing it. That's all. For the women that are willing to overlook shyness, this trait might be unappealing once they start talking with a bitter and resentful shy man.
> 
> I am not dismissing the difficulty shyness brings to dating in any way.


(Sarcastically) Yeah, there _has_ to be some other reason why so many women aren't attracted to shy men or don't want to hang out with shy men other than our shyness. There has to be.

Because if there's not, that means that most women aren't attracted to shyness. And there is _no way_ that could be true, could it??


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Perfectionist said:


> This leads to my belief that your bitterness might be playing a part in your lack of dating life. I am saying I think your resentment of the entire female gender can also cause you setbacks. I don't see why _that _is hard to believe either.


It's impossible to believe because these women aren't even talking to me. How can any woman, much less any fellow human being, just look at someone and come to the conclusion that "He must be bitter towards women."

Life isn't some comic magazine where women have super powers and can read guy's minds just by looking at them.


----------



## Paragon

I think the problem is the lack of expressing personality, not having active social lives and not approaching women, rather than any bitterness. Which is a result, not the cause, i would think. Don't really know where this thread or this post is going heh.


----------



## Atticus

IcemanKilmer said:


> It's impossible to believe because these women aren't even talking to me. How can any woman, much less any fellow human being, just look at someone and come to the conclusion that "He must be bitter towards women."
> 
> Life isn't some comic magazine where women have super powers and can read guy's minds just by looking at them.


Who says shyness isn't unattractive. So is extra weight, short stature (in men, surplus ht in women), or being bald (my fun circumstance). These things are disadvantages because most people are at best indifferent toward them, and some see them as negatives or deal breakers.

Shyness is not an attractive trait to most women.

Shy men still find relationships.

*Some* women look past a man's shyness if he attracts her in other ways. A *few* women are specifically attracted to shy men.

You want a relationship, look for the *some* or the *few*.


----------



## InThe519

melodymuffin said:


> If you love someone they will be attractive regardless.


There is some actual truth to this. There are times that one would hang out, date, see someone they didn't necessarily find "attractive" immediately, but on the "second glance" -- as they fall in love or appreciate who they are as a person, they find that attraction not initial there, to be grown with the love and interpersonal connections.

That being said, I think the OP has a valid point, but I think BOTH genders do this. I think some people esp people with mental afflictions will settle because as one poster say "I'd rather have any relationship than no relationship".

So it goes both ways, the key is that a relationship should never be a band-aid for a gunshot wound.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Atticus said:


> Who says shyness isn't unattractive. So is extra weight, short stature (in men, surplus ht in women), or being bald (my fun circumstance). These things are disadvantages because most people are at best indifferent toward them, and some see them as negatives or deal breakers.
> 
> Shyness is not an attractive trait to most women.
> 
> Shy men still find relationships.
> 
> *Some* women look past a man's shyness if he attracts her in other ways. A *few* women are specifically attracted to shy men.
> 
> You want a relationship, look for the *some* or the *few*.


Statistically, the biggest failures in the dating world are shy people.

Statistically, shy men have twice as big of dating struggles compared to shy women.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Atticus said:


> *Some* women look past a man's shyness if he attracts her in other ways. A *few* women are specifically attracted to shy men.
> 
> You want a relationship, look for the *some* or the *few*.


How is that supposed to boost a shy guy's confidence? So I have to eliminate my chances with the majority of women because I have no chance with them.

After that, I have to look for the *few* women that I have a chance with, while these other outgoing guys have so many other options? That sucks.


----------



## Atticus

IcemanKilmer said:


> Statistically, the biggest failures in the dating world are shy people.
> 
> Statistically, shy men have twice as big of dating struggles compared to shy women.


Both probably true, or close enough.

Your experiences or your inherent persnality, or most likely both contributed to you being a shy man. You're on the shy man path. I am too, and it's not especially fun and never particularly easy. If that's a reason to give up, which is really not all that inspiring-giving up because the odds are long-then give up and put your energy into something else. I know you do that, but you seem to brng a fair amount to this topic, and I think you could use it better elsewhere.

If you think that giving up is a bad idea, then maybe put your energy into taking even a smalll step toward developing enough social confidence to approach women you like.

I really think the whole thing about men's social status is an exaggeration. It can matter, but how often and how much is exaggerated to sell "how to" info to overcome one's lack in those areas. Personality "enhancement".

And even if it matters a lot, when you're old, even older than me  and considering your past choices, don't you want to look back and say you faced this challenge vigorously and did the best you could?


----------



## Atticus

IcemanKilmer said:


> How is that supposed to boost a shy guy's confidence? So I have to eliminate my chances with the majority of women because I have no chance with them.
> 
> After that, I have to look for the *few* women that I have a chance with, while these other outgoing guys have so many other options? That sucks.


Your overstating a bit, but I agree that this sucks. It can suck and you can still live a complete life you value if you learn to deal with it, sucking and all.

Or you can stay stuck.

I'm mostly beyond this concern, but my life is pretty full of suck right now. Some days I don't do so well, but 'm trying to accept that I *feel *like some things suck, and be happy and productve anyway.

And confidence isn't about thinking your odds are good. Confidence is knowing you can try things regardless of the odds, and be OK regardless of the outcome.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Atticus said:


> And even if it matters a lot, when you're old, even older than me  and considering your past choices, don't you want to look back and say you faced this challenge vigorously and did the best you could?


I want to look back and say I did what I could to learn how to relax my muscles, instead of being tense all the time. I want to look back and say I tried to make friends again.

I don't care if I look back and realize I never got into any intimate relationships with women. What does matter, is that I make a social relationship with the world, male and female. That's what is important to me.

If I make friends and become socially connected with the world, I can live with that. Intimate relationships are something extra that I don't expect myself to get in. If they don't happen, that's fine.


----------



## stranger25

I like what Steve says about over-introspection.

"Dude you gotta have confidence"

"Dude you gotta have game111"


----------



## IcemanKilmer

stranger25 said:


> I like what Steve says about over-introspection.
> 
> "Dude you gotta have confidence"
> 
> "Dude you gotta have game111"


This is exactly what I'm complaining about. When someone tells you, "you gotta have confidence or game," they are really saying, "You need to have social confidence, social personality and a social life." They are mainly saying you need social confidence.

It's funny they only direct this at men. Have you ever heard someone tell a woman that she's "gotta have game?"


----------



## DeeperUnderstanding

The only game a woman needs is to look presentable, and not be a complete social retard.

Guys have so many more hoops to jump through. It's insane.


----------



## SuperSky

WintersTale said:


> The only game a woman needs is to look presentable, and not be a complete social retard.


So THAT'S where I'm going wrong.


----------



## Michael A

Not all girls are the same, they all have lead or followed different lives, have different personalities and can make whatever choices they want. That is why "girls" settle for guys they aren't attracted to some do, some don't be it whatever reason. They don't want to be hurt or they don't want to be lonely, they find other attractive traits in the person they are settling. I'm not saying those are all the reasons, there are thousands, and to be honest we do not live a perfect world, where every girl will find a guy they are sexually attracted to and has everything else she has ever wanted in a man. It takes time to work at and grow relationships. So some women choose to settle.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

Michael A said:


> Not all girls are the same, they all have lead or followed different lives, have different personalities and can make whatever choices they want. That is why "girls" settle for guys they aren't attracted to some do, some don't be it whatever reason. They don't want to be hurt or they don't want to be lonely, they find other attractive traits in the person they are settling. I'm not saying those are all the reasons, there are thousands, and to be honest we do not live a perfect world, where every girl will find a guy they are sexually attracted to and has everything else she has ever wanted in a man. It takes time to work at and grow relationships. So some women choose to settle.


Well, I'd say most people settle eventually, men or women. And yeah, a very popular reason to settle is fear of being alone for the rest of their life.


----------



## Misanthropic79

WOW, what a lovely little gender war this is. Atleast it's somewhat respectful in that you're all reading eachothers comments and finding small things to agree on....

On the gender war: Sorry guys but the girls are mostly right on this. They're acknowledging the disadvantages shy guys have with dating whilst defending their belief (and rightly so) that not all women are the same. Not even most women are the same as the number of deadbeat dads with no prospects and d**khole personalities goes to prove.

Besides, not all women exclusively date millionares with comedic levels of humour, an abundance of confidance and horse parts between their legs for the same reason most men don't exclusively date voluptuous, big breasted compulsive chicken heads......

They're so few and far between!

Seriously though there is no such thing as most people like this or that. Different strokes for different folks. Some girls dig shy guys just like some guys dig butch females. Weird I know, but it's true.

On the settling subject: I think the phrase "most people" applies here. Most people settle to atleast some degree as the idea of "The One" is ridiculous and unrealistic. "The One" implies perfection which is unattainable and imo is a myth. "The One" probably doesn't live anywhere near you, possibly doesn't even speak the same language as you IF they do exist.

It's really only a matter of how much you end up overlooking and settling for that decides your overall happiness in your eventual choice.


----------



## Misanthropic79

On the subject of people (guys do it too) settling for someone they're not attracted to.....they're insane.

You're better off alone.


----------



## leonardess

I did it four times (been married four times and divorced four times). The reason being, there is little risk involved should that person leave, decide they want someone else, and all the other ways they could do serious damage. 

Picking someone who is emotionally crippled themselvesand with whom you can accept you have no connection with is much easier than going after someone you really want. No damage, you see? Of course, this will cause damage in other ways. 

Horrible, manipulative, and so on? You bet. It's okay though, as I was quickly replaced in every case and subsequent events show that they didn't love me anyway, and as far as I know, those people are quite happy now. Which is a relief, frankly.


----------



## InThe519

leonardess said:


> I did it four times (been married four times and divorced four times). The reason being, there is little risk involved should that person leave, decide they want someone else, and all the other ways they could do serious damage.
> 
> Picking someone who is emotionally crippled themselvesand with whom you can accept you have no connection with is much easier than going after someone you really want. No damage, you see? Of course, this will cause damage in other ways.
> 
> Horrible, manipulative, and so on? You bet. It's okay though, as I was quickly replaced in every case and subsequent events show that they didn't love me anyway, and as far as I know, those people are quite happy now. Which is a relief, frankly.


Wow


----------



## leonardess

yeah. I've spent many years being pretty screwed up. but then, I understand a lot about people and life because of it, I think.


----------



## mind_games

This thread makes me worry that even if I ever get into a relationship the girl may just be settling for me. Negative thoughts have so much traction. :sigh


----------



## leonardess

well, I am worried that should I ever get into another relationship, the guy would just be settling for me, because should it ever happen again, I will be risking it all. I will have to be real, for a change, because I won't settle for settling. I could get really hurt, or I could really experience something. 

Just pay attention, don't blind yourself to what's really happening between the two of you, go for the type of person you really want, be honest with yourself and others, and you'll know if it's genuine or not.


----------



## InThe519

leonardess said:


> yeah. I've spent many years being pretty screwed up. but then, I understand a lot about people and life because of it, I think.


That is absolutely true. I was in a few dysfunctional relationship with some seriously ****ed up ****, which I worked through and am fine today, but yeah I totally understand the idea about understanding "a lot about people and life because of it".

I know it's why I took 3 years off of long term relationships, so I could straighten my **** out and better understand myself and others.

It's was the short term relationships that got me by :b


----------



## PLarry

mind_games said:


> This thread makes me worry that even if I ever get into a relationship the girl may just be settling for me. Negative thoughts have so much traction. :sigh


Don't worry. Some people are crazy. Which ones? Well you have to figure that out.

Relationships aren't that difficult. The main problem people have on here is that they have failed in the past and have now returned with an analytical viewpoint intent on making correlations between every dating scenario they've been in or witness in the world. In short, they've lost the Tao.

Simple solution: Just be, my brotha. Just be.


----------



## MoniqueS

I have done this. He was a good guy and he treated me so well but I wasn't attracted to him. But I tried on multiple occasions to give him a chance, but our chemistry was just _not_ good. If it had been, I probably would have at least dated him. But when you don't want to kiss or have sex with your boyfriend its just not going to work. But chemistry is more important to me than just being attracted to someone. In a different situation I met a guy and didn't think he was cute at first, but his personality made him attractive to me and we had good chemistry.


----------



## OpiodArmor

Holy **** men on this forum really do hate women. I read this, all of it, and I can safely say many of you really, REALLY don't approve of the female sex as a whole.

I don't even know what to say. It's pointless, I know, as all the countless other perfectly logical and reasonable retorts were met with nothing but more poorly masked self-defeating hate-filled logic. Shheeeeesshhh.

Oh well. Best of luck to you guys. Really, I hope one day you meet a girl that you really click with just so you can remember all the posts and comments you made and think "Wow I was wrong."


----------



## stranger25

OpiodArmor said:


> Holy **** men on this forum really do hate women. I read this, all of it, and I can safely say many of you really, REALLY don't approve of the female sex as a whole.
> 
> I don't even know what to say. It's pointless, I know, as all the countless other perfectly logical and reasonable retorts were met with nothing but more poorly masked self-defeating hate-filled logic. Shheeeeesshhh.
> 
> Oh well. Best of luck to you guys. Really, I hope one day you meet a girl that you really click with just so you can remember all the posts and comments you made and think "Wow I was wrong."


Look at me. Super tall, skinny, healthy, average looks. Yet 99.5% of women find me unattractive. I know this because they've ignored me my whole life. Never talked to me, no connection, nothing. I'm not even good enough to be their friend. I just don't exist to them in the real world. It's like they've been disconnected forever. This might not seem like a big deal to some people but you'd understand if you were me. Someone on made a statement like "my life feels pointless without female contact". That's the truth.


----------



## StevenGlansberg

stranger25 said:


> Look at me. Super tall, skinny, healthy, average looks. Yet 99.5% of women find me unattractive. I know this because they've ignored me my whole life. Never talked to me, no connection, nothing. I'm not even good enough to be their friend. I just don't exist to them in the real world. It's like they've been disconnected forever. This might not seem like a big deal to some people but you'd understand if you were me. Someone on made a statement like "my life feels pointless without female contact". That's the truth.


Do you have male friends Stranger?


----------



## Selbbin

stranger25 said:


> Yet 99.5% of women find me unattractive. I know this because they've ignored me my whole life.


A) you've been in the dating pool for 2 years - if you count it starting at 18, or 4 years if you count it starts at 16. That's NOTHING. That's barely a blink. That's hardly your 'whole life' nor will it be, unless you don't snap out of it.

B) .5% is still about 750 000 women in the US and 15 million women world wide that find you sexually attractive. Pretty good odds! That's 1 in every 200 women! How many women live in your city? You should be raking them in at those odds.

C) You convince yourself of this truth to validate your own negative belief system and make you being lonely a systemic, not personal, problem.

D) You refuse to listen to experience.

C) You have admadmitted several times that you never talk to or approach women, so... who, male or female, becomes friends with someone who never talks to them? you can hardly blame them.


----------



## stranger25

It's probably less then .5. and who becomes friends with someone who never talks to them? well, someone who's genuine and not disconnected from the people around them. It's so rare to find someone let alone a girl who will go out of their way to get to know you even if you seem different. That's just been my experience.


----------



## stranger25

and yet, everything is always the same. The same 0 interest from anything female every day of life.


----------



## Monroee

stranger25 said:


> and yet, everything is always the same. The same 0 interest from anything female every day of life.


If you ignore them, they will ignore you.

The only reason I'm starting to make some acquaintances now is because I'm not "ignoring" people anymore. Keeping my head down, writing in my notebook... I used to ignore people. Once you start opening up, you'll find girls starting to pay more attention to you. Remember, girls are very personality-oriented. If you show them what you're like personality-wise, they're ears will perk up. Girls don't go on looks alone.

Just give it a shot, Stranger25. Let us know how it goes after you've been more outgoing for a few weeks. See if any women can hold a conversation with you, smile & make eye contact. Remember, you won't make any girlfriends in a snap of the fingers, but you CAN make female acquaintances, you just need to try.

Personally, as a woman, I wouldn't feel comfortable going up to a guy. I'm just very shy in that regard, & I'm over my SA! It's natural for women to assume the guy will approach first.

Now, when it comes to me going after women, that's a different story... bisexual relationships are hard to come by...

Good luck, Stranger. I really do like you by your posts here. I hope you can get over this bias & make some connections with people.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

stranger25 said:


> and yet, everything is always the same. The same 0 interest from anything female every day of life.


How often are you around women?


----------



## diamondheart89

I have the awesome ability of *becoming * extremely sexually attracted to the guy I have feelings for, so I will never 'settle'. :yes


----------



## DeeperUnderstanding

I don't think anybody likes to be ignored. Man or woman.


----------



## stranger25

IcemanKilmer said:


> How often are you around women?


No more than anyone else I'd imagine.


----------



## stranger25

Monroee said:


> If you ignore them, they will ignore you.
> 
> The only reason I'm starting to make some acquaintances now is because I'm not "ignoring" people anymore. Keeping my head down, writing in my notebook... I used to ignore people. Once you start opening up, you'll find girls starting to pay more attention to you. Remember, girls are very personality-oriented. If you show them what you're like personality-wise, they're ears will perk up. Girls don't go on looks alone.
> 
> Just give it a shot, Stranger25. Let us know how it goes after you've been more outgoing for a few weeks. See if any women can hold a conversation with you, smile & make eye contact. Remember, you won't make any girlfriends in a snap of the fingers, but you CAN make female acquaintances, you just need to try.
> 
> Personally, as a woman, I wouldn't feel comfortable going up to a guy. I'm just very shy in that regard, & I'm over my SA! It's natural for women to assume the guy will approach first.
> 
> Now, when it comes to me going after women, that's a different story... bisexual relationships are hard to come by...
> 
> Good luck, Stranger. I really do like you by your posts here. I hope you can get over this bias & make some connections with people.


I'm really turned off by the american social scene in general and the clique vibe that people have adapted to. Women are very fearful and disconnected. My good friend Steve Hoca made a good point when he was talking about George Sodini and "disconnected women". Criticizing the american social scene or dating scene is a very taboo subject. That's why alot of people are quick to reflect the blame back onto the person who's struggling.


----------



## DeeperUnderstanding

Wow! Stranger posted a Steve Hoca interview! 

So outta character! I'm shocked! :lol


----------



## Monroee

stranger25 said:


> I'm really turned off by the american social scene in general and the clique vibe that people have adapted to. Women are very fearful and disconnected. My good friend Steve Hoca made a good point when he was talking about George Sodini and "disconnected women". Criticizing the american social scene or dating scene is a very taboo subject. That's why alot of people are quick to reflect the blame back onto the person who's struggling.


I don't have time to watch the video now, but I think I understand what you're saying. I am no means blaming you for the situation. I was simply stating how things are in the social scene of America. Women are more "disconnected" as you say.. I would say more so reserved, subdued & waiting for their white knight to swoop in & take them off their feet. I agree its not fair. But, we can't change the whole social dating scene in a blink of the eye. What would you rather do, however? Sit around & wait for a dating revolution to happen, or try to get out there & meet some women? Don't get me wrong, I know that you have SA or else you wouldn't be here. That's why it's important to get some therapeutic help or some support for this. You know we'll always be here to give advice if you introduce yourself to any girls.


----------



## stranger25

Oh yeah I appreciate the comments, but again I'm just so turned off by the way women act and all the stuff about gender roles. What's wrong with a guy such as myself wanting a woman to actually go against the social norms and notice me for once and approach me. I don't believe in "so and so has to do this because the universe said, and after that so and so does this".


----------



## rickthegreat

IcemanKilmer said:


> No. I think anyone who is shy is socially awkward and has social anxiety.


10 out of 10 psychologists disagree. :b



anomalous said:


> Exactly the same for me, despite my presence on the forum here. I absolutely guarantee that virtually none of the women who know me IRL would suspect I'm on here railing against the dating game and being accused of misogyny on a regular basis. I'd bet my life on it.
> 
> Therefore, it stands to reason that the "bitterness" is *NOT* the reason for my failure. And, quite frankly, it is insulting when that line gets whipped out in these discussions. You were dead on the mark in your response to Perfectionist: women say this (that we're alone because we're bitter and spiteful) simply as an easy excuse for our suffering. End of ****ing story. Honestly, I'd appreciate if she -- and any other women who've toed that line -- would retract that statement.


Generally speaking I think woman *can* sense bitterness and I don't see why it wouldn't be a pretty good reason to reject someone. Anyway, I haven't kept up on all you guy's posts until recently, but if you're really not bitter then can you tell us the real reason(s) why you have failed?

Anyway, it's not unreasonable to conclude that someone who gets very passionate on a forum about a particular subject *actually is* passionate about that subject. Sure it's a possibility that you like playing devil's advocate and yanking people's chains. I like taking the other side of the argument sometimes too. But when the subject of your failure comes up, it's natural that your apparent bitterness would come up as a reason for that failure isn't it?

And besides, even in your quote, you say you're not really bitter, *but then you pretty much say you are*. I'd have to think about it but it's even in the same sentence. And again later on. I'll re-read it sometime maybe. And if bitter isn't the precise word, then it bears an awful resemblance to bitterness.

Besides. I'm a bit skeptical about whether some of you guys are just playing devil's advocate or are really bitter, even you Iceman. I'd have to think about it some more. I will cross-examine you. Will you and others answer my questions truthfully, so help you God? :b


----------



## rickthegreat

stranger25 said:


> Oh yeah I appreciate the comments, but again I'm just so turned off by the way women act and all the stuff about gender roles. What's wrong with a guy such as myself wanting a woman to actually go against the social norms and notice me for once and approach me. I don't believe in "so and so has to do this because the universe said, and after that so and so does this".


Nothing is wrong with it in an absolute sense. Good luck with that. Are you playing devil's advocate? What is the argument exactly? Is there even one? And what's wrong with some of us responding to you like you're jousting windmills while riding an f'ing *mule*?


----------



## DeeperUnderstanding

stranger, dating is a risk game. You throw your heart on the line when you date, and even perfect marriages can end up imperfect and in a sloppy divorce.

What I see you saying is:

- I want attractive women to date me, despite not being attracted to me
- I don't want women to have a choice
- I don't want women to be independent
- I believe men are better than women
- I am too scared to take risks, and blame women when they're also too scared to take risks

All I can say is, good luck with that.

I recognize how flawed the dating scene is towards men. However, that being said, if you take *risks*, you can possibly end up winning the jackpot. If you sit there whining about how unfair it all is, good luck even getting a first kiss.


----------



## stranger25

I don't recall saying I wanted attractive women to date me. Average, yeah, probably.


----------



## Classified

This has probably already been posted here...

Why does this seem exactly like the way I want my life to happen? Why does this seem depressing now?


----------



## shynesshellasucks

stranger25 said:


> Look at me. Super tall, skinny, healthy, average looks. Yet 99.5% of women find me unattractive. I know this because they've ignored me my whole life. Never talked to me, no connection, nothing. I'm not even good enough to be their friend. I just don't exist to them in the real world. It's like they've been disconnected forever. This might not seem like a big deal to some people but you'd understand if you were me. Someone on made a statement like "my life feels pointless without female contact". That's the truth.


Did you go to school or do you have a job? Those are the only places I have been approached by women, although I wasn't physically attracted to them. I think girls rarely approach in other places unless the guy is really attractive.


----------



## stranger25

I dropped out in sophmore year of high school, and sort of isolated myself for a while, but nowadays my life is alot better. Working that is. But my dead social life is still that, dead. I'm not blaming the world for my troubles in life, but there are external factors at play, and I'm not going to ignore them.


----------



## shynesshellasucks

stranger25 said:


> I dropped out in sophmore year of high school, and sort of isolated myself for a while, but nowadays my life is alot better. Working that is. But my dead social life is still that, dead. I'm not blaming the world for my troubles in life, but there are external factors at play, and I'm not going to ignore them.


Are there chicks around at your job? Maybe you are not surrounded by enough women maybe that's why they haven't approached you. You can't expect women to hit on you while walking down the street or while buying groceries. Most guys don't even do that.


----------



## IcemanKilmer

stranger25 said:


> No more than anyone else I'd imagine.


I think society has forced you into the position you are in.

All you can do now is do what you can do, which is put yourself around women if you want to be with women.

Yeah, you've gotten dealt a bad hand of cards being an SA guy, and so have I, but we still have the option of free will. I do believe partial blame is on us, because we haven't gone out enough.

That isn't a shaming tactic, telling someone they don't go out enough, because that's usually the case when someone is alone all the time.

I understand what you are complaining about and everything, but I can also tell you that if you don't do something about it, your situation will never change. Women don't just come into your room and start talking to you, you have to go out into the world and be around them, as do I.

That's the problem I have, I'm scared to go out into the real world and try to socialize.


----------



## Harpuia

I know I'm gonna sound dumb here but...

Who is George Sodini?


----------



## nmpennea

anomalous said:


> Also, perhaps I should try to explain why this bothers me so much.
> 
> I just can't think of anything more demeaning and emasculating than giving my trust to a girl who (unbeknownst to me) cringes at the thought of physical intimacy, but puts up with me anyway because I'm "sweet." I self-identify as a nice guy, and yet I think I'd much rather be with a girl who has a strong raw sexual attraction to me and just a so-so emotional connection than vice-versa.
> 
> God, the thought of a girl laying in bed with a fake half-smile as we do the deed, managing not to vomit only by closing her eyes and picturing some taller, more confident jackass from work... almost makes me suicidal. It's depressing to an extent that transcends words, and to think it's happening to quite a few blissfully-ignorant guys around the world as we speak... just wow.
> 
> Do any other guys feel the same way? Maybe I just have an unnatural fixation on this; who knows.


The thing is, I have dated people I wasn't really attracted to, i started to care about them and then they were really attractive. I know you were asking guys and I haven't read the thread, but a think a great personality is important to a persons physical attractiveness, for me at least. If a guy has a great personality and I get along with them and trust them I suddenly find them to be the most attractive person.


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## Atticus

Harpuia said:


> I know I'm gonna sound dumb here but...
> 
> Who is George Sodini?


He shot and killed several women at the gym where he worked out. He had blogged about his perceptions regarding dating, and expressed a lot of anger and bitterness.

Hoca's diatribes are hard for me to watch, but it seems to me that he's saying or implying that shooting women is a natural or understandable reaction to being socially frustrated.


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## DeeperUnderstanding

Atticus said:


> He shot and killed several women at the gym where he worked out. He had blogged about his perceptions regarding dating, and expressed a lot of anger and bitterness.
> 
> Hoca's diatribes are hard for me to watch, but it seems to me that he's saying or implying that shooting women is a natural or understandable reaction to being socially frustrated.


That's exactly what he's saying.

And among other things, that's why I don't take him seriously.

He says that average guys are looked down on by society. I personally know two guys who are below average looking, who are successful in society, have very attractive wives (9's, at least), and married early in life.

I also know a guy who looks like a model, who is always whining on his Facebook about "how girls don't like him, how he wishes he had game and etc, and how society is horrible towards guys like him."

It makes me laugh at the absurdity of it all...


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## stranger25

IcemanKilmer said:


> I think society has forced you into the position you are in.
> 
> All you can do now is do what you can do, which is put yourself around women if you want to be with women.
> 
> Yeah, you've gotten dealt a bad hand of cards being an SA guy, and so have I, but we still have the option of free will. I do believe partial blame is on us, because we haven't gone out enough.
> 
> That isn't a shaming tactic, telling someone they don't go out enough, because that's usually the case when someone is alone all the time.
> 
> I understand what you are complaining about and everything, but I can also tell you that if you don't do something about it, your situation will never change. Women don't just come into your room and start talking to you, you have to go out into the world and be around them, as do I.
> 
> That's the problem I have, I'm scared to go out into the real world and try to socialize.


That's true, but we know there's more to it.


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## Kon

anomalous said:


> This issue is gravely concerning to me. I've noticed an alarming number of posts on SAS from well-meaning women who flippantly describe seeing their current S/O as being a "great guy" but not that attractive...
> 
> If you're a guy, feel free to post any experiences you've had with this issue and how you reacted to them.


When I was younger I settled for any girl that came unto me that I thought was clean and didn't scare me. Sometimes girls asked my friends to set them up with me. I was almost always semi-drunk the first time or was nervous as hell. I still got many opportunities as I had a pretty good physique and the mirror was my best friend. So I think having SAD/introversion will usually make one to going with girls that may be slightly less attractive than themselves. And the women they are likely to attract are probably much more aggressive/independent/supportive/caring also. I went with a couple of shy girls (not SAD?) and it was extremely difficult at that time. Just my limited experience.


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## Ivan AG

Harpuia said:


> I know I'm gonna sound dumb here but...
> 
> Who is George Sodini?


The poster boy for TFL clubs and PUA promoters.

In short, TFL sells him as a frustrated, dateless guy.

A victim of a sick society, and all that nice jazz.

Some self-made PUA bloggers claim that if Sodini had bought PUA products, and learned some "game", then he would never have committed the acts he did.

Some far right on the political spectrum PUA ideologists like Roissy call him the "beta male" victim.


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## tranquildream

leave me alone said:


> My first relationship I ever had was me "settling for" a girl that i wasnt attracted to.. The chick basicly did "all the work", she asked for my contact from my friend, started to text me. I only replied becaouse i wanted to be nice, but i didnt feel atracted to her. I never had a relationship before, so i was really inexeperienced with girls. Few weeks passed by, we were still texting and i find out that we have lots in common. I agreed to go on "real date" with her. It was little awkward at first, but then we got comfortable with each other. I still wasnt really atracted to her physically, but i really liked her personality. At the end of the day, we kissed and that made our relationship kind of official i guess. By the time i started to get more and more atracted to her, even physically. Our relationship lasted almost 6 months and it was beautiful, first but the best relationship i ever had. But then i did something that i cant forgive myself even to this day and thinking of it makes me want to smash everything around me. We did break up, because of me, i was so stupid.. I didnt value our relationship enough and at first i havent even realise what i did. (i havent cheat on her btw.)
> 
> I met her like half year after our breakup, we didnt talk, but our sight crossed and just looked at each other. I could see in her eyes the pain and hate she felt towards me. I would do anything to atleast let her know, that i am sorry, because i never said it before, but now its too late.
> 
> So yeah, settling for somebody you arent sexually attracted to isnt a bad thing. First impression often lies. If you give her/him a chance, you might be surprised how much you have in common and you might start to like each other even more. There is definitely enough space for "growth" of your love towards the other person.
> 
> edit: IDK, maybe women are different and they cant accept a guy who they are not physically attracted to at first sight.


No, I dated someone I wasn't attracted to at first sight, but I was really attracted to his personality(in general and sexually) and in love with him. And yeah, the more time you spend with them, the more attractive they become to you. But in the end, it didn't work out for various reasons. Some people would call this settling, but to me the personality and how well we got a long was everything. I don't think I'll ever meet anyone else who I connect with that well.


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## Atticus

^^^I would suggest that those aren't instances of "settling", but rather, looking past the surface of a person. If you two hadn't liked the person, and hadn't morphed into liking the surface once you knew the person, but pursued a relationship abnyway, that would be settling.


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## King Moonracer

This is way more appropriate than the thread i just made haha


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## StarDude

So in the end, looks really do mean everything to women. You could have a heart of gold and it won't mean anything if you don't have the looks to go with it.


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## humourless

I imagine plenty of guys "settle" for attractive girls who have nasty, hysterical or boring personalities.
I'm not one of those. If I don't feel at ease in her company, I'm out of there!


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## missalyssa

I couldn't do it.
I don't care how nice a guy is, if he's not attractive ill forever be turned off if he tries to kiss me. I would grow to resent that.. And how would I have sex with someone who doesn't physically turn me on?

I'm sure guys wouldn't settle for girls they aren't sexually attracted to either!!


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## mistyeyes

angus said:


> melodymuffin said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you love someone they will be attractive regardless.
> 
> 
> 
> Yer when your in love with someone even there imperfections are beautiful.
Click to expand...

I completely agree.. When you develop a genuine romantic interest in someone, even their imperfections are endearing.

Imperfections being physical like a scar, or moles, or even typically annoying behavior.. Not abuse or self-destructive behavior that should be read as a giant red flag.


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## komorikun

I have a theory that this is why so many marriages end up sexless. Women marry someone that they are barely attracted to and it just gets worse with time, age, and too much comfort in the relationship. That and the birth control pill kills sex drive.


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## Atticus

komorikun said:


> I have a theory that this is why so many marriages end up sexless. Women marry someone that they are barely attracted to and it just gets worse with time, age, and too much comfort in the relationship. That and the birth control pill kills sex drive.


I'm not sure I agree with this (many sexless marriages involve willing young women and unwilling young men), but then I have a man's perspective. Your point raises some interesting questions, I think.

Why do you think this is? Assuming men and women pair up with partners of roughly equal attractiveness, are men just less attractive than women? Or are women (themselves of ordinary attractiveness) biologically or culturally that oriented toward the "best" men (however that's defined) that more ordinary men seem bland?

I don't mean this as a "trap" question. I realize that saying women are just more attractive than men opens one can of worms, and saying that they're not but they feel entitled to someone more attractive than them opens another. Maybe there's another explanation?


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## heroin

Atticus said:


> Why do you think this is? Assuming men and women pair up with partners of roughly equal attractiveness, are men just less attractive than women? Or are women (themselves of ordinary attractiveness) biologically or culturally that oriented toward the "best" men (however that's defined) that more ordinary men seem bland?


The latter, IMO. The poster you responded to herself said in another thread that "attractiveness is not that important when looking for a relationship" as opposed to when looking for a one-night stand.

I guess many realize that they don't have a shot at making a relationship with the "best" (because the best are a minority and they have other options, but are OK for a one-night fling) so lower their "standards" when looking for a relationship. Eventually the "I can do better" thoughts win out and the guy they settled for no longer looks attractive enough to have sex with.

There have been surveys and such I've linked to (click) and comments from young women that suggest that the vast majority of men are unattractive to most women. So any kind of "settling" is bound to eventually sour for most women.


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## anomalous

Atticus said:


> Why do you think this is? Assuming men and women pair up with partners of roughly equal attractiveness, are men just less attractive than women? *Or are women (themselves of ordinary attractiveness) biologically or culturally that oriented toward the "best" men (however that's defined) that more ordinary men seem bland?*


Speaking for myself, and why I started this thread, my fear involves some combination of the bolded and one other factor. The other factor is my fear that aggression and dominance play directly into a man's attractiveness, especially in bed, and that a girl would begin to find a man less attractive should he not display these traits once she starts sleeping with him. (Though, it's not just about sex; I fear she'd find me less attractive upon my "backing down" from an aggressive encounter with another man in public, even if she initially accepted me in the absence of any "test" like this by which to judge me).

These fears are driven by: (a) intuition, (b) real-life experiences and observations, and (c) posts made by women online, including on SAS, in which it's clear they're unsatisfied for these kinds of reasons but their partner has no clue.


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## komorikun

heroin said:


> The latter, IMO. The poster you responded to herself said in another thread that "attractiveness is not that important when looking for a relationship" as opposed to when looking for a one-night stand.
> 
> I guess many realize that they don't have a shot at making a relationship with the "best" (because the best are a minority and they have other options, but are OK for a one-night fling) so lower their "standards" when looking for a relationship. Eventually the "I can do better" thoughts win out and the guy they settled for no longer looks attractive enough to have sex with.
> 
> There have been surveys and such I've linked to (click) and comments from young women that suggest that the vast majority of men are unattractive to most women. So any kind of "settling" is bound to eventually sour for most women.


I said that attractiveness is important for both relationships and one-night stands just to a different degree. But yeah, it's true, women do have to lower their standards to get into a relationship. As an average looking woman, you can have sex with very attractive guys but they will never be interested in a relationship. Men aren't picky about who they have sex with but they are picky about who they commit to. Women are picky about both. These are all generalities of course.


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## komorikun

Atticus said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this (many sexless marriages involve willing young women and unwilling young men), but then I have a man's perspective. Your point raises some interesting questions, I think.
> 
> Why do you think this is? Assuming men and women pair up with partners of roughly equal attractiveness, are men just less attractive than women? Or are women (themselves of ordinary attractiveness) biologically or culturally that oriented toward the "best" men (however that's defined) that more ordinary men seem bland?
> 
> I don't mean this as a "trap" question. I realize that saying women are just more attractive than men opens one can of worms, and saying that they're not but they feel entitled to someone more attractive than them opens another. Maybe there's another explanation?


From what I've read online, it's mostly guys complaining that their wives won't have sex with them. The reverse is less common.

I like to read a lot about sociobiology and evolutionary psychology. Then I develop my own pet theories on human behavior. It could be both that men are less attractive than women and that women are more oriented toward the "best" men.

Maybe women are better looking than men on average. There are all those surveys that ask people what are the most important characteristics in a spouse and men always rank beauty in the top 3 but women don't. I'd imagine it has been like that for a long time, so probably the most beautiful women had more children that survived because they could get more help from men in raising them. After several generations, their genes became more common in the populace and you end up with women being better looking than men.

It could also be that women have lower sex drives than men, so they need more stimulation to get excited. The average guy just doesn't do it for them. If all women got a testosterone patch, women might behave more like men. This again goes back to evolutionary psychology, women who were horn dogs and got pregnant with whatever guy ended up with less surviving children than a woman who was less horny and didn't have sex till she could be sure she could get support for raising the kids. Women still have this mentality even though we have birth control now.

Women are kind of left with a conundrum. (Now, I'm not saying women consciously think this way.) On the one hand, you want the best genes for your kids but on the other hand you need support to raise the kids. So women either settle and have kids with a guy with so-so genes or have kids with very attractive guys (better genes) but get no support from the dad. A few of the settlers may cheat (if they can get away with it) and have the best of both worlds. There was a study that found women more likely to cheat while ovulating.


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## OutrageouslyAdorable

I could never! Like sometimes I will really want to like that "great guy" but if I'm not attracted to him...I just can't.


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## northstar1991

I hate the idea of just settling with someone.


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## Double Indemnity

komorikun said:


> I said that attractiveness is important for both relationships and one-night stands just to a different degree. But yeah, it's true, women do have to lower their standards to get into a relationship. *As an average looking woman, you can have sex with very attractive guys but they will never be interested in a relationship. Men aren't picky about who they have sex with but they are picky about who they commit to.* Women are picky about both. These are all generalities of course.


I can (unfortunately or fortunately) confirm this.


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## DeeperUnderstanding

Many guys also settle for girls they aren't attracted to, out of desperation.


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## heroin

komorikun said:


> Women are kind of left with a conundrum. (Now, I'm not saying women consciously think this way.) On the one hand, you want the best genes for your kids but on the other hand you need support to raise the kids. So women either settle and have kids with a guy with so-so genes or have kids with very attractive guys (better genes) but get no support from the dad. A few of the settlers may cheat (if they can get away with it) and have the best of both worlds. There was a study that found women more likely to cheat while ovulating.


But women these days can work and earn enough to support themselves. Why not just have children with more attractive guys, he'll have to support them financially anyway if the matter is taken to court, and as long as she has a job she can support herself and the children. Why the need to lower standards and put up with an unattractive man?


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## Downwiththesickness

god this is a depressing thread


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## Atticus

komorikun said:


> Maybe that is possible now but our brains are still the same as they were 1000s of years ago. Same as why so many people are obese these days. Even though we have plenty of food now, people still want to pig out on fattening foods every chance they get because in the past there was not enough food and those who didn't pig out when there was an excess of food didn't survive.
> 
> For myself, I'm never having kids, so that whole point is moot. The reason why I would lower my standards is because one-night stands are not that great (better than nothing though) and it's time consuming to look for a new person constantly. I'm also lonely and have few friends because of SAD and being socially inept, so I desire companionship. I was attracted to all of my exes but I had more choices because I was living abroad and got more attention from men than here. I may very well have to settle. Not sure yet cause I haven't gone on enough internet dates but I have a hunch I will, judging by the messages I get from guys on dating sites.


As I said before, I'm not sure your theory is entirely accurate, but assuming that it is, are you really settling if you end up with a man who is available to you for a committed relationship? Not to be too harsh, but the men who find you interesting short term, by your theory, won't commit to you long term. They're committment has great value and if they commit, they're looking for someone "more". So if you're committment oriented, is it really settling to choose from among the men who are willing to commit to you?

I mean I'm 54. The same type of flawless 21 year old who I could only dream about when I was 16 or 21 or 25, grabs my attention now. For a variety of reasons I'm not going to act on that desire, focus on those women, or likely admit to that basic desire publicly to avoid the laughter :yes. I deal with it and I don't think I'm settling on the woman I'm with, who is my age and not flawless. I'm choosing (happily) from among the options that are at least somewhat realistically available to me.

I suspect that some of the women who are settling, if this is really a widespread phenomenon, are guilty of what so many men get accused of, and that's overvaluing their desirability. If the men these women want are "great" and the women doing the wanting are merely "pretty good", you can hardly blame the men for the women's inability to adjust to their real relationship prospects. If getting back what you offer isn't good enough, all I can say is "ain't life a *****".


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## heroin

Atticus said:


> I'm choosing (happily) from among the options that are at least somewhat realistically available to me.


That's the difference. From the pool of average dudes, the ones realistically available are usually not desirable.

Like it's repeated over and over, attraction is not a choice. You can still pick from the available options, but you may not find them attractive.

For an analogy, consider that you actively find the vast majority of women over 21 undesirable or unattractive. You still have a pool of realistically available choices that do not include hot 21 year olds, but you don't find most of them desirable.


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## Atticus

heroin said:


> That's the difference. From the pool of average dudes, the ones realistically available are usually not desirable.
> 
> Like it's repeated over and over, attraction is not a choice. You can still pick from the available options, but you may not find them attractive.
> 
> For an analogy, consider that you actively find the vast majority of women over 21 undesirable or unattractive. You still have a pool of realistically available choices that do not include hot 21 year olds, but you don't find most of them desirable.


To quote me quoting everyone, then "ain't life a *****" .

I mean seriously, if a relationship has value, there's the concept of "attractive enough". The majority of ordinary looking couples don't just happen to prefer the ordinary. They prefer the extraordinary, but they prefer to be in a relationship and so they find aspects of the ordinary person extraordinary, and that's enough.

Then they recognize that part of commitment is having the discipline to not disrespect their partner by directly comparing him or her to other people, or by implicitely comparing by frequently focusing on other people who may have more immediate, surface appeal.


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## WalkingDisaster

A question vaguely related to this topic: 

Do old people find other old people attractive? For example, do married couples in their 70s still find each other attractive and want to have sex with each other? Because I know for the majority of young people, the idea of sleeping with a 70 year old would be repulsive. Young people want to sleep with other young people generally, so when people age does the age of people they find attractive raise as well, or are old people all wishing (probably in secret if they're married) that they could sleep with younger people again?


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## pita

^
Yes, they do. I've heard some wild stories about nursing home shenanigans.


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## WalkingDisaster

pita said:


> ^
> Yes, they do. I've heard some wild stories about nursing home shenanigans.


But do they actually find each other attractive, or are they settling for people their own age because they wouldn't have a chance with 20 year olds, and there would be a negative stigma?


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## Atticus

WalkingDisaster said:


> But do they actually find each other attractive, or are they settling for people their own age because they wouldn't have a chance with 20 year olds, and there would be a negative stigma?


The things that drive attraction are mostly sub conscious. I don't think those things change much over time, or are wildly different from person to person at any given age.

At any age there is a thoughtful component to attraction. Even with one night stands, I think most people would prefer to like the person's personality, or find them charming, etc. So I'm pretty sure that I'm not so unusual, and for a decade or more I've chosen to place more importance on the thoughtful aspects of my attraction to people (being realistic among other things), and on their personality. Priorities change a bit, and pretty naturally I think.

Having said that, the women I'm with is a bit older than me, and I'm physically attracted to her, and I'm aware, sometimes quite irritatingly, that other men are also :sus Point being, it's not like either of us have any illusions about our absolute hotness, but we do it for each other without any noticable effort.


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## bsd3355

i've seen pretty girls with ugly dude and vise versa, but i agree that it doesn't seem common...

personally, i'm sorta glad the truth has come out. if you can't get the person you'd like then you might as well enjoy the other stuff in life because once it's over it's over. people are overrated anyway. i've tried and failed and got some success as well. it's not all that. once sex is over and there is no connection then there is complete boredom and every cell in your body begs you to get away from the person.

it's a good thing i'm stubborn because i'll develop a way to not give a ****. the thick skin is developing already and it's pretty refreshing. i'm not bitter but happy. if you look around people get old and ugly all the time, and also the idea that what your attracted to now changes and/or fades when you age. things don't stay the same. people reject the shell of you and not what you really are so don't be an ******* an enjoy all the perks of life.

everything about me is cool regardless of what people think.


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## komorikun

Atticus said:


> As I said before, I'm not sure your theory is entirely accurate, but assuming that it is, are you really settling if you end up with a man who is available to you for a committed relationship? Not to be too harsh, but the men who find you interesting short term, by your theory, won't commit to you long term. They're committment has great value and if they commit, they're looking for someone "more". So if you're committment oriented, is it really settling to choose from among the men who are willing to commit to you?
> 
> I mean I'm 54. The same type of flawless 21 year old who I could only dream about when I was 16 or 21 or 25, grabs my attention now. For a variety of reasons I'm not going to act on that desire, focus on those women, or likely admit to that basic desire publicly to avoid the laughter :yes. I deal with it and I don't think I'm settling on the woman I'm with, who is my age and not flawless. I'm choosing (happily) from among the options that are at least somewhat realistically available to me.
> 
> I suspect that some of the women who are settling, if this is really a widespread phenomenon, are guilty of what so many men get accused of, and that's overvaluing their desirability. If the men these women want are "great" and the women doing the wanting are merely "pretty good", you can hardly blame the men for the women's inability to adjust to their real relationship prospects. If getting back what you offer isn't good enough, all I can say is "ain't life a *****".


I'm certainly not blaming the men for this problem. If you generally feel happy with your choice then I don't think choosing from the available men who are willing to commit is so bad. Right now, I look at the profiles of guys who have sent me messages on this dating site and I think many are interesting, cool guys but I look at the picture but I'm just like...god... can I kiss this guy? do I really want to sleep with him? Should I go on a date with him and see if sparks fly somehow? I'm not terribly picky about the body but I am about the face.

When I read on other forums about married guys who are unhappy with their sex life, I have serious doubts about all the advice they get. Everyone says, the guy should help around the house, have a special date night without the kids, give the wife a massage, blah blah blah. People go on to say that women are not visual creatures and that it's all about the emotional connection. I just think that either the woman is not attracted to the husband period or she has a low sex drive from the birth control pill or pregnancy/lactation.

Maybe my thoughts have been poisoned by going to bars for years and relying on automatic attraction. Also, I had much more options when I was abroad. With all of my exes, I felt turned on just by looking at them and I had the opposite problem of most couples, they turned me down for sex all the time. I just don't know if I'm ready for a relationship where I have to rely on "emotional connection" to get turned on.


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## jsgt

Downwiththesickness said:


> god this is a depressing thread


No doubt! Jeez we are complicated creatures. The things that are being said here make me want to completely forget about ever trying to find someone.


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## meganmila

If you mean not finding someone attractive at first but then later on they were so attractive. Yes I have done that...maybe cause everyone around me was making me feel bad about not going out with him. But later on I found him attractive.


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