# Why does Steve Jobs get so much praise from techies?



## Knowbody (Jul 5, 2011)

Correct me if I'm wrong but from my feeble understanding he was only a business man and a master at marketing while Steve Wozniak was the one doing all the dirty work, engineering, writing code, creating things etc

Steve Jobs was just a salesmen, correct? am I wrong?


correct me if so.


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## The Silent 1 (Aug 21, 2011)

He was a designer who knew how to shape new technology so the public would respond to it. He didn't come up with the idea of the ipod, but he helped design it and the interface for example. He was also key in designing the iphone. He was also willing to gamble on new ideas. When asked what market studies he did for the ipad, he said none because you can't give the people what they want, but rather new things.

And I've actually heard a lot of hard core techies say what you did about how and that he gets too much credit.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

I don't think real techies are the people who obsess over mac products lol. Mac-philes are like the hipsters of techies.


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## ToucanSam (Mar 22, 2012)

Knowbody said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong...Steve Jobs was just a salesmen, correct? am I wrong?correct me if so.


You are not wrong.

His genius was in creating an iconic brand, much like Phil Knight did with Nike and Quaker Oats did with Gatorade (ie. kool-aid for jocks).



lonelyjew said:


> I don't think real techies are the people who obsess over mac products lol. Mac-philes are like the hipsters of techies.


Real techies use PC's to create apps for Macs. 'Nuf said!


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## offbyone (May 5, 2010)

lonelyjew said:


> I don't think real techies are the people who obsess over mac products lol. Mac-philes are like the hipsters of techies.


Indeed.


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## THEuTASTEsOFeINKd (Apr 10, 2010)

That's odd, I've always thought it was the opposite.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Steve Jobs may get too much credit, but he really did help revolutionize things in the computer and tech world. We have the iCloud, iPhones, iPads, iMacs, and all sorts of gadgets and apps that work well within them. I can take my entire music collection (plus all sorts of stuff I don't own, like on Spotify) with me anywhere, I can read a whole book, I can watch movies, I can play video games, etc.

The Android is good, but it doesn't compare with the iPhone, which has everything.


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## Syndacus (Aug 9, 2011)

I think most of his products are absolute garbage. Designed for not so tech-savvy people, produced by chinese workers in slave farm factories, and overpriced, easy to break electronics.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

Syndacus said:


> I think most of his products are absolute garbage. Designed for not so tech-savvy people, produced by chinese workers in slave farm factories, and overpriced, easy to break electronics.


I really disagree. Apple hasn't invented much of anything, but they certainly have polished and popularized a great many things that other companies probably could not have without Steve Job's marketing and demand for functionality. The computer mouse, graphic interface, personal computer, mp3 player, touch screen phone, and now tablet, are all things that Apple perfected, and helped popularize. As far as build quality goes, I'm wondering where you got your impression that their products are easily broken. My friend's Macbook is way better built than either of my laptops, in every regard (though it was also quite a bit pricier), and my ipods have always been, hands down, way better built, and far more functional and pleasant to use, than any of the other MP3 players I've had experience with, not to mention more durable (surviving countless drops/impacts, and even a trip into a river when I fell off a tree bridge). Overpriced? They are pricey, but again, they are built well, and well designed, and unfortunately on top of those, you do have to pay a premium for "cool" goods.

As far as being "produced by chinese workers in slave farm factories," that's a pretty ignorant statement to make. Apple, unlike most companies, does actually actively try to push for worker safety and basic worker protections, and they not only actively audit the factories they contract out, but they publicly publish those audits - including violations and things they need to work on. Then there's the fact that Chinese workers are more than willing to work in factories, and your misconception, that they are better off without companies like Apple, is only something a spoiled westerner would think. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, or that working conditions are "comfortable," but the Chinese factory workers aren't, again, spoiled westerners, and are more than willing to work long hours for an economic opportunity that they otherwise wouldn't have.


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## Wildman (Apr 9, 2011)

I don't think he gets that much praise from real techies. As has been said, he was brilliant from a design/marketing standpoint, but as far as I know his contributions on the technical side were not significant.

Reminds me of this (Steve Jobs v. Dennis Ritchie):


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## successful (Mar 21, 2009)

Because Mac>


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## luceo (Jan 29, 2011)

Real techs use Linux builds.



successful said:


> Because Mac>


Are you trying to say that Mac's better than nothing? Well, I guess that technically is true... :b


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

I'm a real techie, I use Linux on my Mac. 

The big thing Steve Jobs did was to unify people behind a specific configuration, and push the norms with products that were easy to use (even if they are missing some features true techies want). It becomes much easier to develop apps with few bugs if there are only a few product configurations that can exist. Planned obsolesce sucks when you are a poor techie who wants to use your 7 year old computer to run the latest thing, but it is a great business plan that Apple has been able to pull off better than anyone.

Steve Jobs also had the attitude that most geeks respect. That he or she knows more and knows what is right. But, he also had the laid back, non-materialistic style too.


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## Syndacus (Aug 9, 2011)

inb4 mac-aphiles invade.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

Syndacus said:


> inb4 mac-aphiles invade.


Heh, it's funny how there is the mac loving crowd, that obsesses over all Mac products, who feel really cool for having their fancy little gadgets (and spending obscene amounts of money for all of them), and then there is the anti-mac crowd, whose members feel really cool because they are too cool for mac products, and despise those who like macs. Their products are nice, but they're just tools, nothing to obsess or brood over.


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## Nada (Dec 19, 2004)

I didn't realize techies bought into Apple's hype. I didn't like their limitations and felt they were just a fad for people who wanted to be seen as trendy.


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## successful (Mar 21, 2009)

luceo said:


> Real techs use Linux builds.
> 
> Are you trying to say that Mac's better than nothing? Well, I guess that technically is true... :b


lol nah I just wanted to get a reaction.

It's really depends though. If you're into programing & gaming PC are better. If your not Macs are a hell of a lot better then any PC for everyday use even though a lot of people wold hate to admit it.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

1 out of about 100 used a Mac in computer science at university.
Virtually all of 120 used Mac at journalism school.
It's designers and creatives that use Mac, not programmers or techies.

Apple products are 'fine', just very closed, quite inconvenient and surprisingly pricey.

And I feel obligated to link this again :b


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## gorbulas (Feb 13, 2004)

i think that apple products paved the way for a lot of things recently. Apple pretty much took the original ipod and kept making it better and taking it further. and the other thing that defines them from the rest is the ease of use and its clean look.


mp3 players before ipod were pretty much non-existent and crappy. 
ipod video pretty much started the portable video players that smartphones have today and its all-in-one encompassing media player 
iphone is debatable. they probably designed the iphone and ipod touch at the same time. their following from the ipod popularity was a BIG help. the ipod got them a huge fan base from people who don't use macs.
ipad is a stretch for innovation. it doesn't take a genius to figure out that all they needed to do was just to expand the ipod touch/iphone screen.

even before the ipod came out, places like to use macs because of its stability and its uniformity. they are easier to maintain if they are all the same. they are quality computers. the downside to the macs is that you can't change them. it doesn't let people tinker with them. that's why a lot of people don't like macs.


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

I agree that you can code well on a Mac. Especially if you put Linux on it. Although Xcode works too.

And IT departments like Macs better because they can't be changed. Back when I was in high school I had to support both of them for the school district, and Macs were easy to setup and load all of the software.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

coldmorning said:


> Your school probably gets a lot of funding from Microsoft which is why you probably only see those. Many schools tend to be either one or the other.


My school was a university and unlike in America it is funded entirely by tax money so it is not funded by Microsoft in any way, thank you very much.
We used linux machines because those are completely open and can be set up any way the tech department wishes - plus there isn't any licensing fee.

People who like to fiddle with computers generally don't like the closed systems Apple makes.
My very unscientific numbers were simply to say that when students brought in laptops to work on during workshops, only one used a Mac.

Bjarne Stroustrup, the creator of C++, talking about how he likes to work. And surprise, surprise, he uses Windows and Linux, not Mac.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

coldmorning said:


> Your comment that programmers don't use Macs is still factually wrong. Picking one individual to support your claim only shows you don't know how to make a proper conclusion from observation which is the root of why your original comment was so wrong.


Why do you go out of your way to be rude?
Is it hard for you to simply say your experience differs without making insinuations or insults?


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

The fact is that you can install Linux on a mac just as easily.

The thing you learn in the real world is that standards are a good thing, and if everyone has the same video card and resolution (among other things), it makes it easier to know that your program will work on other people's computers.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

gorbulas said:


> ipad is a stretch for innovation. it doesn't take a genius to figure out that all they needed to do was just to expand the ipod touch/iphone screen.


I don't think any of their products have been truly innovated in the sense of the word, they only have been able to polish and market the innovations of others. The tablet is not new in concept or invention, and neither was the mp3 player (they even stole their menu system from Creative Zen), or touch screen hand held devices, or anything else that Apple has to offer, but Steve Jobs sure did have a talent for taking those things, making them easy and intuitive to use, and putting them in a sexy shell.



coldmorning said:


> Your comment that programmers don't use Macs is still factually wrong. Picking one individual to support your claim only shows you don't know how to make a proper conclusion from observation which is the root of why your original comment was so wrong.


If programmers are using Macs, it isn't for the operating system lol and if a school is using them, it really speaks to the financial judgement of their department heads, who would pay a massive premium for macs, that would be no better for programming than much cheaper PCs.



Classified said:


> The fact is that you can install Linux on a mac just as easily.
> 
> The thing you learn in the real world is that standards are a good thing, and if everyone has the same video card and resolution (among other things), it makes it easier to know that your program will work on other people's computers.


But why pay the massive premium for that? You can buy PCs configured with certain specs, and not allow students/faculty/workers to mess with the hardware for so much less.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

coldmorning said:


> Milco, stop being so sensitive. The tech industry can be brutal... you'll need a thick skin.


LOL, this forum isn't the tech industry, and a bit civility isn't too much to expect imo. Also, you choosing individual examples to push your argument, after saying " Picking one individual to support your claim only shows you don't know how to make a proper conclusion from observation" is just poor form.



coldmorning said:


> Both are guys very influential in the software world today, not guys who wrote a variation on C decades ago. And they both state that the best programmers they see are moving to Macs. If you want to work at a bureaucratic company that sees programmers as monkey coders, then sick with your windows. But if you want to work at a top tech company, founded by programmers who will respect your work and give you equity, you'll probably need to learn to use a mac.


There's probably truth to this, but I imagine it has much more to do with Mac having a larger marketing share, and products for Mac therefor being in higher demand than anything to do with Mac being a superior platform (again, if they're using Linux or Unix, what's the point of getting a Mac?).



coldmorning said:


> I haven't been to school in a long time, but when I was, my understanding is that the computers were often given to schools for very cheap as they wanted the students to adopt them. This applies for both Apple and Windows.


I'm sure you're right, and maybe Mac is doing that now. It is a very smart marketing strategy.


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## luceo (Jan 29, 2011)

I'm a little surprised that no one's mentioned that Apple don't make server hardware. It's a pretty big deal from a tech perspective. Sure, they make the OSX Lion server, but it's pretty useless for large scale enterprise environments when you can only deploy it on a desktop machine.



coldmorning said:


> I haven't been to school in a long time, but when I was, my understanding is that the computers were often given to schools for very cheap as they wanted the students to adopt them. This applies for both Apple and Windows.


This could be easily down to regional differences, but here schools aren't 'given' computers by anyone, least of all Apple and Microsoft. Purchases are made in bulk at the discretion of the schools administrative staff, on advice from the school tech team.


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## offbyone (May 5, 2010)

If you are a good programmer the platform isn't really that important. If you have hackerish tendencies you'll be on Linux or to a lesser extent windows since you have vastly more control over the hardware and platform as a whole than you do with a mac.


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## Knowbody (Jul 5, 2011)

okay so after reading the first few replies I guess I was right all along about him being a gloried salesman.

thanks


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

coldmorning said:


> Milco, stop being so sensitive. The tech industry can be brutal... you'll need a thick skin.


If you want to be rude to people, get off this website and go join that industry then.
I don't appreciate you trying to belittle me further and trying to make it a problem with me.



lonelyjew said:


> LOL, this forum isn't the tech industry, and a bit civility isn't too much to expect imo. Also, you choosing individual examples to push your argument, after saying " Picking one individual to support your claim only shows you don't know how to make a proper conclusion from observation" is just poor form.


And as lonelyjew points out, you are doing the exact same thing as you just scolded me for doing, which is no way to make an argument.
I never said no programmers used Macs.. In fact, I even told in my example that one computer science student *did* use a Mac, so I would have defeated my own claim, if that indeed had been my claim, but it wasn't.

My claim was simply that far and away the majority of programmers I know and have met have used linux or windows machines.
Some will obviously use Macs, and depending on what company you work at and what kind of work you do, Macs might be the most commonly used computers, but it is not my impression that Macs are used anywhere nearly as much as windows/linux or indeed that they are preferred by "techies".
I still stand by my comment that it's designers and not techies that are really into Apple/Mac.


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## Luna Sea (Apr 4, 2012)

I don't know anything about coding or really anything you don't need to know about computers for a standard admin job, but I'm really split on what to think of Steve Jobs.

On the one hand, he helped make mp3 players a standard thing that most people had (and portable music is everything to me - I wouldn't leave the house without my 160GB iPod), and if the iPhone hadn't come first, we probably wouldn't have had the explosion of smartphones we have now, which are awesome.

But I also heard a lot of stuff after he died about him being really bitter about Android stealing his ideas. I kinda hoped that when he was on his deathbed, he'd care a bit less about extra millions he could have made and just focus on how that "plagiarism" helped improve peoples' lives by giving us awesome phones that he laid the foundations for.


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## Knowbody (Jul 5, 2011)

TristanS said:


> I don't know anything about coding or really anything you don't need to know about computers for a standard admin job, but I'm really split on what to think of Steve Jobs.
> 
> On the one hand, he helped make mp3 players a standard thing that most people had (and portable music is everything to me - I wouldn't leave the house without my 160GB iPod), and if the iPhone hadn't come first, we probably wouldn't have had the explosion of smartphones we have now, which are awesome.
> 
> But I also heard a lot of stuff after he died about him being really bitter about Android stealing his ideas. I kinda hoped that when he was on his deathbed, he'd care a bit less about extra millions he could have made and just focus on how that "plagiarism" helped improve peoples' lives by giving us awesome phones that he laid the foundations for.


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## GunnyHighway (Sep 28, 2010)

lonelyjew said:


> As far as build quality goes, I'm wondering where you got your impression that their products are easily broken. My friend's Macbook is way better built than either of my laptops, in every regard (though it was also quite a bit pricier), and my ipods have always been, hands down, way better built, and far more functional and pleasant to use, than any of the other MP3 players I've had experience with, not to mention more durable (surviving countless drops/impacts, and even a trip into a river when I fell off a tree bridge).


This is just one thing I saw, and hoped to touch on in a civil manner without getting jumped on for knocking the almighty Apple.

You don't know the true "build quality" of Apple products (or anything for that matter) until you work at a computer repair shop. While they're not quite as bad as HP (Worst company in my opinion), Apple products flow through my store on a regular basis. The one I see the most? MacBook Pro, 2011 model. I honestly wouldn't have thought that, but it's true at this store. Don't even get me started on iPods/iPhones/iPads. I have seen at least a hundred get their screen replaced in the past 3 months. Guess how many smart phones/tablets with broken Gorilla Glass we've replaced? Zero. (And I live in a city of 500,000+, I'd say I have a pretty large test group to back my findings)

They're all electronics, they all fail. Nothing is perfect, Apple included.

And the picture posted above me says a lot about my feelings on Jobs. Greedy greedy.


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## melissa75 (Feb 16, 2010)

****THREAD LOCK WARNING****



This thread will be closed if you guys can't refrain from giving your opinions without belittling each other.​


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

coldmorning said:


> Your comparison is wrong and here is why. If I were to make a claim that 'all cars are blue' it only takes one observation of a non-blue car to disprove that claim. So you might say, well here's a red car and that would disprove the first claim. If I were to reply to your red car observation by saying 'well I just saw the most awesome car and it was blue, therefore, you're wrong' that would be flawed logic as it doesn't back up the first claim.
> 
> The claim I disputed was 'programmers don't use macs'. I pointed out several places where many of the best programmers do in fact use macs. That is enough to disprove the claim. Yet I got a response that one very good programmer in particular didn't use macs. That is simply inadequate to back up the first claim.
> 
> I then responded with quotes on the observations of two very prominent people who work with many of the best programmers. They stated that they see many good programmers using macs. Remember, I only need one non-fitting observation to disprove a claim of 'all'. So it is valid to use. And that is most certainly not the same thing as responding with one observation to back up a claim that all cases fit the observation as Milco used.


When I read his post, I didn't see him make any universal claims, but more a general statement. I get your point, I just think you read too much into his post, and it would have been better received if worded in a non confrontational manner.



GunnyHighway said:


> They're all electronics, they all fail. Nothing is perfect, Apple included.


I agree, I was only making a general statement about my own personal experiences with their quality. Like I said earlier, I took notice of the differences between my friends macbook and my laptops, which suffered from buttons breaking off (I have 3 right now that are held on only by tape), and with how my screen's hinges have gotten progressively more loose (actually breaking on my old Dell). I also took notice of my friend and his brother's iMacs surviving far better and longer in their dust/doghair filled house, compared to his laptop and PC, which both have had serious overheating issues. With that said, his brother's iMac's motherboard somehow fried when his computer was unplugged unexpectedly, which I still can't believe. Anyways, it isn't a very fair comparison, because I'm usually comparing products in different price brackets, but I haven't ever held anything made by Mac that hasn't felt poorly built.

And as for Steve Job's selfishness, I agree. He wasn't a good man. He had talent, vision, a great work ethic, and success, but a good human that does not make.


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## OldSchoolSkater (Jun 3, 2011)

All of the antiMac and MacFreaks need to calm down. Who cares if you like it or not? I have a MacBook and I love it - had it for 5 years, it's worked flawlessly with the exception of one or two times I had to bring it into the Apple Store - less than an hour later I was walking out with it running like new again and absolutely NO cost to me. You can say they are expensive, but in my opinion it was worth it in the long run for me. I've had other brands and everytime something happened it would cost hundreds of dollars and take weeks to fix. I'm not super computer savvy so don't give me that "just fix it yourself" stuff, there are some of us who just don't have the time or capacity to learn in depth about fixing a laptop. 

Also, Steve Jobs knew how to market items. He made them aesthetically pleasing, and there is little to no wait or lag on most Apple products, so that is why a lot of people like them. Yeah yea yea it's trendy, whatever. I'm a huge Mac fan but I've had my MacBook for 5 years and my first generation iPod nano for 7 or 8 I think. Both still work great and were well worth the extra couple bucks for me.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

Heh, you mentioning the Apple store reminded me of the thing I hate the most about Apple, the Apple store. Every time I went into those pretentious stores I'd have to get an appointment (seriously, an appointment to see a f'ing over glorified cashier?!) from the douche bags who worked there, who didn't care to help anyone who wasn't buying something pricey like an MP3 player or computer.


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## OldSchoolSkater (Jun 3, 2011)

lonelyjew said:


> Heh, you mentioning the Apple store reminded me of the thing I hate the most about Apple, the Apple store. Every time I went into those pretentious stores I'd have to get an appointment (seriously, an appointment to see a f'ing over glorified cashier?!) from the douche bags who worked there, who didn't care to help anyone who wasn't buying something pricey like an MP3 player or computer.


Only time I've ever bought anything from them was when I bought my MacBook 5 years ago or whenever it was. And yes you have to make an appointment but they look at your computer with you and tell you how they are going to fix it on the spot - usually while you wait and for free. Like I said I never paid for a repair over the last 5 years even without the extended warranty. Not a bad experience in my opinion. All of the PC guys can call me simple or whatever, I lack the capacity to care about fixing computers.


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## Burnt Toast (Jan 9, 2012)

His products were good, but overall I view him as rather selfish. He wasn't the best of a person, he was just smart.



Syndacus said:


> I think most of his products are absolute garbage. Designed for not so tech-savvy people, produced by chinese workers in slave farm factories, and overpriced, easy to break electronics.


I don't think his *products *were bad at all. Apple sells premium products after all. Now, my opinion on Steve Jobs himself differs, he was a smart guy, but he wasn't the best person. He was selfish according to alot of stories I have read. Some of the things he did were terrible...

IMO however, I do think they're overpriced. Now easy to break; if you mishandle them of course. Apple isn't the worst brand, its good to some others.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I think he was a genius, at least in the innovative sense of the word.


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