# Did Abilify do this to me?



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

UPDATE: I'm no longer suffering from the extreme anxiety and depression I've described below! For anyone interested in trying it, my regimen is 30 mL TwinLab Amino Fuel, 1 tsp glutamine powder, and 250 mg magnesium twice a day--i take all that daily, first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and wait an hour before I eat. I'm completely back to my old self, better even, and I hope my experience can help someone else. I buy my supplements at Vitamin Shoppe and they are a little pricy, but completely worth it. If you're interested in reading the thread where I first saw the regimen, it's here: http://anxietyforum.net/forum/showthread.php?4408-Amino-Acids-and-Magnesium-cured-my-Anxiety
It's helped a lot of people, it seems, so if you aren't on meds or want to stop your current ones, this imo is worth a shot! Obviously as will everything, I'd talk to a doctor first. I was fortunate enough to have my GP doctor's full support and interest, and now she recommends this to her other patients with anxiety and/or depression or are reluctant or resistant to medications. Best of luck to everyone in finding what works for them! * * *

Hi, everyone. I posted this question previously in another subforum but was told this one might be better. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me!

I'm new posting here but have been reading posts and following people's stories for quite a while. I decided to post my experience because I could really use some insight and help, as well as general support. I'll try to be thorough but concise.

In October 2010, my last semester of college, I started using Abilify for trichotillomania (compulsive hair-pulling). I went from 2 mg to 15 mg, gradually, over the next few months. I didn't have anxiety at all before this, or depression, though I'd had the latter in the past (2005, after my dad died when I was 15). I didn't have any problems while on Abilify--it helped my pulling urges reduce, and leveled my mood swings. They'd been mild and I could have lived with them--it seemed more like bad PMS--but the pulling? I was desperate to stop at any cost back then. So desperate that I did NO research on Abilify prior to taking it.

Then, in January 2011, I stopped cold-turkey believing I was pregnant (which I wasn't at that time, but just in case). My doctor knew I had stopped and didn't tell me to taper instead.

About 2 weeks after stopping Abilify, I experienced sudden intense anxiety and depression, out of nowhere. It lasted for 5 days. All I could do was cry, vomit, and drag myself to class (I only had one by that point). On day 3, believing the Abilify would help, I took 5 mg (maybe 2.5, I can't remember) and about ten minutes later I not only still had the previous symptoms, but now felt depersonalization--as if everything around me was a dream. I had never experienced anything like this in my LIFE--I thought I was going crazy, literally.

Then, after 5 days of this, it ended one night at work, just as suddenly as it began. I went from complete misery and physical anxiety (jitteriness, sudden urges to weep, vomiting, racing heart, etc. but no "mental" anxiety) to feeling completely like my old self. Just like that.

All right--here's where it gets tricky. This sounds like typical DA withdrawal, yes? But the thing is, this occurred ten days before I graduated college. So my therapist told me it was just anxiety about leaving school, even though up to that point I'd been pretty excited about moving back home.

Add in the fact that a few weeks later, my boyfriend proposed, found out he had to move 2 hours away for work, my uncles died, other family crap, and I found out I was pregnant. A lot of big changes in a very short time. So every doctor I've seen blows off the possibility of DAWS and says I'm having adjustment disorder or postpartum depression, even though the first episode occurred before any changes had happened but right after I stopped Abilify.

This was almost two years ago--and ever since then, I'll have 2-3 weeks, sometimes more, sometimes less, of complete normalcy. I feel totally fine. Not manic, just...me. I get stressed and sad at appropriate times without feeling like the world is ending.

Then, it hits again--no depersonalization, but still. One day I wake up with adrenaline just coursing through my body. My heart races (I have supraventricular tachycardia, but this feels different--like I've been running for miles), my muscles feel tense, mentally I'm not worried about anything but emotionally, I feel like the world is ending. Well, you guys know what I mean--preaching to the choir.

The pregnancy was stressful but healthy, and I remember some depression and anxiety, but nothing as bad as what I've experienced before and after. After the birth, I had about a month-long episode, but chalked it up to hormone changes.

Also, forgot to mention but seems very important to me: during my "bad days," I wake up around 10/11, jolted by anxiety; by 10/11 pm every night during those bad episodes, I feel completely normal (some nights I don't feel better, but about 99% I do). Literally like someone flipped a switch, until the next morning. Then, like I said, one day I wake up and I feel normal, like nothing even happened. Then I live my life totally normal for a few more weeks, till it starts all over.

Anyway--what do you guys think? Could this be DAWS, and if so, what can I do about it? Obviously I'm very wary of psych drugs now, and Xanax isn't an option because I'm related to an addict and I've seen what it can do to those with addictive personalities like mine. Bipolar? PMDD? I've already been tested for thyroid issues, but will soon be tested for Cushings/cyclical Cushings.

Thanks for your help! I'm just getting really desperate here. I'm terrified I'll be like this the rest of my life.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

Crap, I made this same mistake in the last post! by 2010 I meant 2011, and by 2011 I meant 2012. This has been going on almost 2 years (it will be 2 years January 2014). I've read that post-acute withdrawals usually end by 2 years, but I'm really confused as this applies to long-term use of drugs like alcohol, benzos, etc. That's why I'm thinking, maybe it's DAWS, dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome, since Abilify is a partial dopamine agonist. It also effects serotonin, apparently, so it would make sense that even on the drug for a short time--about 2.5 months--my brain would need time to adjust and get its natural levels right. but THIS long??

Please help if you can. Again, I realize this may not be the best site since my anxiety isn't social; I've also never experienced panic disorder or anxiety disorder prior to Abilify, though I do remember having severe social phobias during puberty (but I think I was self-conscious about my hair-pulling).

Some new symptoms that have developed, even when the depression/anxiety isn't quite so bad, is a darkening of my urine and a burning sensation in my brain: not severe, but it feels like an "internal fever." You know how your head burns inside when you get a fever, except this has no external fever or chills. It's kind of hard to explain...it almost feels like my brain is inflamed or swollen.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

One last thing, in what I've tried so far. I'm obviously very scared of psych drugs now, because if this IS d.a.w.s. or PAWS or whatever, I've heard there's no treatment except healthy living and time, because anything else I take will have minimal efficacy and only lead to another withdrawal later (though maybe not as severe, so I have been considering it...though now that I'm nearly at the 2-year mark I'm really hesitant. It's only in my worst days of misery that I consider anti-depressants or Xanax, but I talk myself out of them. Especially the latter, as my brother is a recreational Xanax addict and I come from a family of addicts and alcoholics).

Anyway, here's some natural remedies I've tried so far:


-5HTP. Seemed to help at first, but now I either notice no difference or a worsening of symptoms. This was back when I thought I just had adjustment disorder depression. Somedays it helps. This is the precursor for serotonin, so maybe it only works on days my serotonin is the problem--not my dopamine.
-Ashwaghanda extract. Taken as needed when the anxiety/depression is really bad, but unsure if it helps or not; could be psychosomatic. Seems to make a big difference on days my anxiety isn't at its worst, rather just lingering.
-Holy Basil extract. Just started this recently, and seems to have the same effect as the Ashwaghanda.
-Kava extract (capsule form). Felt absolutely nothing from this. Tried a tea form as well; didn't help. I've heard it only helps when it's the actual tea, like the stuff they drink in other countries.
-Lumiday. Can't tell if it helped or not; was too expensive to try another bottle after the trial ran out. Didn't seem to hurt, though.
-Magnesium. Just started today, still waiting to see.
-Calming chewing gum from Vitamin Shoppe. Didn't seem to hurt or help much.

I also smoke, but have been using e-cigarettes for 3 years. Looking back, the amount of cigarettes I smoked was nothing compared to how much I vape (half a pack a week if that; now I "chain-vape" all day every day).

I switched from a Blu to an Ego-T (basically the Blu is dinky and good for beginners; Egos are for people who vape often) about the same time I quit Abilify. A few weeks ago I wondered if the switch led to higher nicotine intake (I actually know it did) and if that was playing a role, though I smoke as much on my good days as on my bad ones, and have lowered the nicotine level from 36 mg to 18 mg over the course of a year. I tried during my last episode to cut down to 0% nicotine, but it made my anxiety way, way worse. I plan to quit altogether soon after cutting down to 12 mg and then 6, then zero, but right now it just seems too hard. I have been curious if perhaps the chemicals in the e-liquid (PG, VG, etc) could be contributing to all this.


----------



## brainfogboy (Nov 10, 2013)

More than likely low dopamine from the withdrawal. I am constantly in this anxious, depressed state unless I take my Dexedrine/Adderall, which kills it instantly. I use my stimulants as suicidal abortive pills because they are the only thing that works.

Abilify is an activating antipsychotic, probably because of it's agonist properties on dopamine receptors d2-d4, which would increase your dopamine levels while on it and then leave you with rebound withdrawal when stopping the drug.

Best of luck.


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

You should of taper off. Anyways there is supplements that could help upregulate D2 I don't know how sufficient they would be. Inosital and choline. There also some tweaked versions of choline out there I dunno if they would be any better.

Hell nicotine withdrawal probably causes DAWs as well. I came off 5mg-2.5mg of abilify without a problem before. I was only on it for a month a year ago using it as a add-on. It safer in those doses I think. So expensive.

Actually I wanna add abilify to my adderall to try it together.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

Thanks for your replies  So this does sound like some kind of DAWS/dopamine problem? I've tried inositol, as it's also supposed to help with hair-pulling. I'm also looking into NAC for the same reasons. 

I'm just so sick of it! Not in a suicidal way; my good days and my daughter keep me going during the bad days. But I feel just...worn down. You know how it goes. Some day you know you can handle it, some day you just want to stay in bed forever. 

How likely would it be that quitting Abilify so suddenly actually damaged (permanently so) my brain? I know I wasn't on it long, but it was fairly high and that stuff is potent--I felt it by the second day of starting.

I've had people suggest starting another DA and tapering again, but I feel like by this point, almost 2 years later, I'd just be starting this mess all over again.

I feel like I'm rambling, sorry. Basically, do you think this is permanent? Or do I just need to give my brain more time to heal itself? And what can I do in the meantime to help it along?

Like I said, I plan on quitting ecigs at some point...it's just that right now, that feels too overwhelming a challenge.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

I might try the inositol again; I didn't give it enough of a chance to see any effect. 

This might sound ridiculous, but I've worried about taking supplements to increase dopamine--would that ultimately just prolong this process and leave my brain in the same deficiency later? Or are these supplements meant to help the receptors, not the level of dopamine itself? So confused...there's just so much info out there, it makes me dizzy to try and figure this out.


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

It hard to say what it could be. You could go back on a low dose abilify to see if that helps. Don't go any higher then 5mg then do a slow taper. At least if you think it is your D2 that would help stabilize it. You could try getting your prolactin checked.

I actually did the same thing with a SSRI that messed me up for for a long time cause I CT it. I went back on did a super slow taper and it helped put me in remission quicker kind of peace of mind and a gradual time to readjust.

Yeah I take NAC and inosital as well. it part of my regiment.

You were on 15mg of abilify for hair pulling that insane. That like a bipolar. or antipsychotic dose it only used as an add-on at 5mg for antidepressants.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

I've thought about going on a low-dose again and tapering off this time instead of cold-turkey, but I guess I'm terrified because I've heard in DAWS it rarely lasts longer than two years, and I keep telling myself it'll all be done with by January at the two-year mark, almost magically. But I know if it isn't gone I'll be devastated. Also, I'm worried that if tapering didn't work I'd have just started the whole process over, you know? 

On the other hand, I know it could help as my body would have an easier time adjusting. But after two years, and only being on Abilify 3 months, I just can't understand why my brain isn't getting better. 

One counselor I saw while at school seems to think the Abilify just unmasked a "true imbalance," but I just can't agree. I wasn't like this this before Abilify, I know I wasn't! A little over-sensitive and worrisome personality? Sure. But not this. I didn't have panic attacks or depression until this. I know the Abilify did it to me.

You said tapering helped you, though? Can I ask out of curiosity how long it was between your c/t and when you started again to taper?

Also: I know! After researching how much Abilify is usually used in trichotillomania, it baffles and angers me that my doctor put me on such a high dose so fast. Looking back, 5 mg up to maybe 10 was working fine. I would even bet money something as low as 2 mg could have helped me. But c'est la vie; nothing I can do about that now. I can't believe my doctor gave me this in the first place before recommending CBT and natural medications.


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

Prehaps your brain was adulterated Was that your first expourse to psych meds?

I'm thinking I dunno I've been on meds my whole life ever since I was 7 I'm pretty sure that taking meds completely changed my brain chemisty and personalty from who I actually was the medication gambit is a big onslauight.

Your story sounds similar to mind when taking SSRI. The SSRI caused me panic attacks after taking it.

Well I CT at 20 messed my brain up for years then finally went back on meds when homeless 4-5 years later then cold turkey again then finally did a slow taper 8 months ago.

What are your symptoms again since you stop the abilify?


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

I think if abilify was the drug that created the imbalence going back on it for a while may restore the balence then doing a slow taper to help your brain slowly readjusted would help recovery.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

Yeah Abilify was my first experience with an antipsychotic (didn't know that's what it was at the time--my doctor simply said "This is normally used to treat seizures and bipolar disorder, but it'll help your hair-pulling too." That's it. Nothing about its use in schizophrenia treatment, the withdrawal/importance of tapering, etc.

In 2005 at age 15, my dad died, and I was given Prozac and later Zoloft (separately, at low doses) for my depression, but looking back they didn't do anything to help or harm me. Not once did someone tell me, "This is grief and it's normal." They just gave me pills.

Since 2005 I had only had minor seasonal depression during winter, which was eradicated almost completely by exercise and a DayLight therapy lamp. So by the time I took Abilify, I was actually completely mentally stable--to my knowledge anyway--and it was only hair-pulling that really bothered me anymore.

My symptoms on Abilify were slight euphoria and a better ability to stop myself from pulling my hair, though I still got the urge to do it. I did gain some weight and I think eventually Abilify stopped working as well; can't remember why exactly I stopped cold-turkey, I may have thought I was pregnant but it was so long ago I've forgotten.

As I said, in the middle of that first panic/depression episode, I took some Abilify and felt depersonalization; that scared me off of taking it again, though if I'd known then what I'd know now, I would have gotten back on and tapered down very, very slowly.

Ever since stopping, my symptoms have been:

-Complete normalcy most days, feeling like myself. Happy when I should be, stressed when appropriate, sad when appropriate, but nothing I can't handle. I just feel normal.

-Then, out of nowhere and in no relation to my "lady cycle" haha, I wake up one day with intense physical panic. No mental worries, just that inescapable anxiety and huge adrenaline rush. 

During those panicky days, here are my other symptoms:
-Depressed mood (though maybe I'm just depressed because of the panic and how long this has gone on; hard to say)
-Feeling of hopelessness and loss of control over my brain
-No psychosis or hallucinations, thank goodness
-Increased thirst
-Darkening of urine in the mornings, sometimes slight blood tinge to it
-Brain feels "waterlogged" and heavy, as well as foggy. Sometimes it's burning, like a fever, only just in my brain. Aspirin helps reduce this a lot.
-Morning insomnia--can't sleep once I wake because of so much adrenaline and panic
-No appetite. Find it very difficult to eat anything, though I always make myself eat something at least by mid-day
-Trembling in hands, but could just be weakness from previous two symptoms
-Constant urge to cry, even when emotionally I may be feeling okay; my face just has this feeling like I'm about to cry at any moment, for no reason
-Trouble concentrating and remembering things
-Racing heart, not tachycardia (I actually have that inherently) but more like when you have too much caffeine
-Sweating during night/in morning

Like I said, this happens out of nowhere and lasts about 3-10 days, sometimes it's been as few as one day, and other times it's gone on for weeks (most recently, 3 weeks straight, worse than I've had in a while).

Again, if I'd heard about DAWS earlier, I probably would have gone back on Abilify to taper. But now that I've been off it two years, I'm just really scared it won't fix this imbalance--rather just prolong my brain's natural repairing of itself. I've heard mixed ideas on it from people--some say tapering slowly is the only way, others say tapering just makes it so you don't get hit as hard with w/d as when you cold turkey, but that both require time and good health habits so the brain can regulate itself.

Obviously, in people with certain conditions, the brain will only regulate itself so much. But since I had no previous issues except Season Affective Disorder and hair-pulling, WILL my brain fix itself? Sorry, I feel like I might be asking the same questions over and over... Clearly I'm in one of my "bad days" and I just get so obsessive about how long it'll last/if it's permanent/what can I possibly do to help myself repair, etc. 

And thank you so much again for your help. I'm so happy to hear from someone that they've gone through something similar; I feel like doctors are only taking me semi-seriously on this since I wasn't on Abilify very long.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

PS: I just have to say I have so much respect for people who've gone through things you've gone through, no matter what the circumstances surrounding it. You're a really strong person and I hope your living situation has improved since then


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

Actually I being reading into topics like this for ages here's what happens your brain chemisty before was perfect you added the drug and the drug changes the brain chemisty your situation does improve or it made worst by the drug you then remove the drug your situation is even made worster by removing it. Then you readd the drug it corrects the imbalence that the drug created in the first place. Now this is the new baseline.


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

ZoeyBallantine said:


> PS: I just have to say I have so much respect for people who've gone through things you've gone through, no matter what the circumstances surrounding it. You're a really strong person and I hope your living situation has improved since then


Oh ya it does get better with time.


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

Cold turkeying an antipsytchotic can make you psychoptic pretty much I'm not sure what recepters are hit at 15mg it antagonist to histamine serotonin dopaimine and alpha recepters and its an agonist to some of those as well. So your brain could need to go back on it and a slow taper would help give you a easier time to adjust. Some recepters were downregulated well some upregulated coming off to quick would diffenently cause the imbalence it may not even be DAWs your going thur. It could just be an imbalenced cause by the AP.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

I see what you mean--I clearly had *some* imbalance because obviously I wouldn't have been pulling my hair out if I didn't, but that maybe it either wasn't the dopamine causing it (since they don't know what causes trichotillomania exactly), or the Abilify "over-regulated" it, and now I'm left with just a ****storm of an imbalance.

I guess my hesitance in restarting and tapering is that I'm skeptical if, with my exact situation/brain chemistry, it would help, only because I've been off two years and cold turkey or not, I feel like my brain should have adjusted back to normal by now.

The counselor that suggested Abilify just "unmasked a previous imbalance" implied that I sounded bipolar, but I've researched it extensively and it just doesn't quite fit. I don't have any level of mania, nor did I before the Abilify. In fact the only reason bipolar even fits is the anxiety/depression comes intermittently with normalcy in between.

But DAWS just fits my symptoms, all of them, too perfectly. I looked up Abilify discontinuation symptoms and everything I have is there: intermittent depression and panic/anxiety, memory problems, sweating, darkening of urine (though I hope it's not rhabdomyolsis as listed specifically in those effects), loss of appetite, etc.

I just keep going back and forth on this, thinking one minute, "I have been improving, however slowly, and only time will fix this" and then thinking "This is in an imbalance and only more drugs can fix this."


Sorry if I missed it, but how long between when you c/t the SSRI and when you tapered? I'm just at a loss here as to what to expect in terms of a time frame to recovery. I've found NOTHING on specific Abilify DAWS, because most people had no problems stopping or had symptoms subside within 6 weeks. I've only heard of DAWS lasting this long with full dopamine agonists, not partial ones, and with prolonged use with previous conditions, not short use for off-label like I was.

PS: Sorry if I'm ranting. I just feel very stuck in neutral at the moment.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

I've been wondering that too, if it's DAWS or just a drug-induced imbalance that can ironically only be fixed by taking the drug again and coming off slowly. I wish I could ask a doctor and get an honest, unbiased opinion, but the couple I have seen just go, "Oh it could be DAWS. Here's an antidepressant." ?! That will not help me whether it's DAWS or not. At least in my opinion.

I think I'll try the NAC/Inositol combo and wait a few more months, past the official 2-year mark in January, and in the meantime try to find a therapist who'll listen to me in-depth and give me an honest opinion. Thank you so much for your help. I didn't fully think about the possibility that "like removes like" and that the only way to correct the Abilify imbalance MIGHT be with Abilify again.


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

Your symptoms make sense if the drug was stopped CT.

Yeah I'm ranting to.

2005-2006ish I only took the SSRI for a couple months. When I coldturkey paxil and celexa they gave me unreal panic attacks and derealization where I could not leave my house for 4-5 years I lost all my friends and went insane lol I couldn't sleep for days it was bad. It turn me into a nut. That probably why people off them selfs after taking those drugs.

Actually it took 2-3 years of binge drinking to make the panic attacks go away. Even after a couple years I was left with PSSD PSTD and other neurotic problems. 

About year 5 I restarted the SSRI lexapro it wasn't really to bad. CTing it still lefted me with ocd depression and anxiety. I used that off and on for 3 years after never did a proper taper untill 8 months ago. Finally did that and it was a lot easier these last 8 months.

Either gradually my brain adapted or it was the paxil and celexa that seriously messed me. Starting the lex was a better antidepressant it still had a lot of side effects. Eventually those problems disappears it been like 8 years now.


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

ZoeyBallantine said:


> I've been wondering that too, if it's DAWS or just a drug-induced imbalance that can ironically only be fixed by taking the drug again and coming off slowly. I wish I could ask a doctor and get an honest, unbiased opinion, but the couple I have seen just go, "Oh it could be DAWS. Here's an antidepressant." ?! That will not help me whether it's DAWS or not. At least in my opinion.
> 
> I think I'll try the NAC/Inositol combo and wait a few more months, past the official 2-year mark in January, and in the meantime try to find a therapist who'll listen to me in-depth and give me an honest opinion. Thank you so much for your help. I didn't fully think about the possibility that "like removes like" and that the only way to correct the Abilify imbalance MIGHT be with Abilify again.


Abilify may not be the only solution to correct the problem. It could be one of the solutions. It may be the one of the safests options. There are other ways to repair down regulated recepters it gets risky. Involving taking a low dose of antipsychotic to upregulate receptor. Just stoping cold turkey can cause a lot of problems. I figure a mirco doses of resperidone probably diluted in a water bottle to help point recepters in the right direction in upregulation could work. That a risk altho to help restore balance.

Actually it could be a bad idea because it a different drug and it not really a tested method. Other AP may work as well.

Inosital and Nac is probably the safest bet at the moment make sure you get the 500g Inosital powder take like 20grams a day or 4x5gram doses through out the day.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

Do you mean the symptoms didn't happen until 5 years after you c/t? Or they went on for 5 years? Either way I'm so sorry you had to go through that! I feel like a wimp now, what I'm going through seems so benign compared to your experience and others' that I've read. It makes me realize how lucky I truly am.

I touched on this briefly earlier as a possibility: could this be the electronic cigarette? I mean, I know c/t Abilify did me NO favors. And maybe it's a little of both factors--like, smoking messed with my receptors and Abilify did too, and the combination was like the perfect storm so to speak. 

I found a couple posts in other forums where people experienced anxiety attacks/depression ever since using a nicotine patch; one was from a smoker who used it for a few days, and the other was a non-smoker who'd used the patch for concentration in school for about a week. So now I'm thinking, maybe the ecig operates in a similar fashion for me.

Here's the timeline of my smoking/Abilify usage; maybe you can help me figure this out too since you definitely know your stuff about how the brain works!

-Dec. 2010: began social smoking when I got my job as a waitress. Everyone in that restaurant smoked. I mean EVERYONE. I was smoking maybe a cigarette or two a week, if that--it was very intermittent.
-Feb 2011: I started using the Blu brand e-cig. The nicotine level was the brand's highest, but low compared to others. The mechanism in brand that is weak, and the device itself was crappy so I didn't vape very often/get much nicotine, I'm sure. At first I loved smoking. It seemed to help my pulling.
-Summer 2011: I noticed my pulling increasing and mood swings/response to stress getting worse, but nothing terrible by any means. I just figured it was because I've always been an overly-sensitive person when compared to most.
-October 2011: I started the Abilify for hair-pulling, and my doctor said it would probably level out the minor mood swings, which it did.
-Late December 2011: I switched from the Blu brand e-cig to an Ego-T, which is the huge pen-style e-cig and operates by heating the liquid directly on the mechanism (instead of a small amount in cotton that's heated up by the mechanism). My nicotine increased and my usage increased, because the Ego hit better and lasted longer.
-January: quit the Abilify cold-turkey, and you know the rest.

I've continued vaping throughout the last 2 years. While it calms me down during the bad days, I'm now wondering if either the ecig is really the cause of them in the first place, or if it's inhibiting my brain's repair from the Abilify. Or like I said, some of each.

Can this happen? I never have anxiety/depression directly after smoking--it just happens one morning and lasts for days, then ends suddenly. And during my good days I still vape just as much. 

The more I read on nicotine's effect on neurotransmitter receptors, the more I'm wondering if perhaps I'm wrong about the Abilify being the cause (or sole cause). 

But I'm also obviously terrified to quit, because the few times I cut down nicotine levels, my anxiety and depression spiked like crazy. It's a lot to put myself through on top of this, but if it is the cause then I know it'd be worth it. I guess I'm hesitating because I'm worried quitting would take away even my "good days," which are what keep me going through the bad ones.

You said you've read about this stuff a lot, and I'm just now researching it so I'm confused but what are your thoughts on it? Can nicotine usage cause anxiety/depression in the long-term while still seeming to relieve it in the moment?


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

Also, when I do quit, would NAC and inositol help me through those withdrawals? My aunt is using Wellbutrin for smoking cessation and depression (her husband died of liver failure last year) and she really likes it, but I've heard Wellbutrin can have some really bad effects and terrible withdrawal even with tapering. Though that is the case for all psychiatric medication, so...it's kind of which is the lesser of two evils, meds or suffering through it. :/ 

I'm very interested in natural supplementation and CBT as first-line treatment, so if I did try another DA or Wellbutrin or anything else, it'd be a last resort. It's helping my aunt a lot so I don't want to knock it; just doesn't seem to be a good fit for me right now since I'm so scared off meds.

Anyway. Can nicotine usage cause DAWS-like symptoms? I know withdrawal can in some people, as I'm sure it will for me when I quit, but what about actual usage? Especially coupled with the Abilify c/t? I don't even know if I'm making sense, I'm sorry!


----------



## istayhome (Apr 4, 2012)

To me it sounds like Abilify was effectively treating your original symptoms while also partially treating an underlying more serious psychological disorder that you had. Any withdrawal symptoms certainly would have worn off by now and the idea of psych meds permanently changing the pathways in your brain is ridiculous. Once you discontinue the drug your mind does return to it's original state after a period of withdrawal symptoms.

From what you describe it sounds like you may be affected by a bipolar disorder which the abilify was masking until you discontinued the drug and it cleared out of your symptom. You symptoms started several weeks after you quit Abilify, meaning that abilify was treating some disorder, then you quit it so that disorder then became evident. I suggest the possibility of bipolar II because it seems like your symptoms have a cyclical nature between hypomania and depression. It is worth discussing this with your psychiatrist rather than trying to get a very false and biased answer from some of the people posting in this thread.

Also, I do not recommend ever taking an psychotic again unless you are suffering from a psychotic disorder. They are very dirty drugs which you simply do not need.

*Edit; Wellbutrin actually is the easiest antidepressant drug to quit. I have never heard of anyone having any withdrawal symptoms upon cessation of the drug. I just quit taking 300 mg/day of it without any tapering and did not experience any withdrawal effects.

A lot of the discussion in this thread is really bizzare and nonsensical. I highly recommend just seeing a psychiatrist and explaining to them what is going on .


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

Yeah I ment 5 years. I had the problem pretty much untill I went back on medication. Then I took meds off and on with improvement well on it then finally tapered off. I wrote those post yesterday in a hurry I had to go back and edit them. I did eventually get better over time the progression is slow.

Sure nicotine can cause depression anxiety ocd and crap it can be used for depression and anxiety as well. So it kinda mixed smoking is a social thing or can be. Overall it bad for your cardiovascular and repair of the body quiting smoking will improve depression over time. But quitting smoking could make you depressed at first it like coming off a anti-depressant it coud take 6 months to get over it. It can be pretty brutal. You will have more energry and get better sleep your body will feel better. Its just the psychological aspects is hard to get over cause smoking tweaks your brain a lot.

Inosital helps with quitting it makes the compulsion to smoke less and numbs some of the withdraws I find. NAC is suppose to help a bit to. I think I forget what for clearing out the lungs and ocd.

Wellbutrin is a decent medication and is actually harmless coming off I never had problems coming off that one either. It would help with quitting smoking. I find it takes over on the adrenaline effect of smoking or replaces it so you don't get as demodivated and depressed after smoking. It also blocks or antagonizes a lot of nicotine recepters so it will gradually numb the effects of nicotine.

Meds can change the brain function and can be the cause of the disorder it self I personally believe that medication can create and fuel the disorders their ment to treat. Its like someone that became dependant on steroids and got their steroids cut off did that not just change the function of their body. Now there body quit producing its own homones. Same thing can happen with neurotransmiters. You may of had hair pulling before that just sounds like a personalty trait. If someone CT a antipsychotic at a high dose they will become psychotic this has been proven it can cause a permament movement disorder. So if you coldturkey a bipolar dose of 15mg abilify it could of trigger bipolar symptoms in a non bipolar person.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

istayhome--thanks for your advice, though I disagree that I had any kind of bipolarity before Abilify. And while the nature of my mood swings now certainly fits with bipolar/cyclothymia (I wondered if that was it for a while and did a lot of research), I have no episodes of mania, or even hypomania--just days of depression/anxiety with normalcy in between. My mood never spikes upward or towards aggression; I'm just level for a while, and then it spikes down for days, then ends. And the anxiety feels literally like adrenaline is just being poured into my system from the moment I wake up to about 11 every night during my bad days.

I'm not saying I didn't have some kind of latent mood disorder--I have no way of knowing, really, so you could be right that Abilify brought it out, I just don't think it did. Also, my symptoms started about 5-7 days after I stopped Abilify, not weeks later.

Also, what in our thread is bizarre and nonsensical? I don't appreciate your word choice. I'm trying to figure out what happened to me 2 years ago because, no offense, I know my body and brain and you don't. I didn't have these problems before stopping Abilify and increasing my nicotine. I'm just trying to get some insight about what to do and what could be going on with me. I still appreciate your insight, though, even if I don't agree with all of it.

I think GotAnxiety could be more on-point, that Abilify--rather than uncover a mental issue--caused one or exacerbated the slight imbalance I already had, if I had one. I'm thinking it caused it, because like you said I was on a high dose of Abilify for just trichotillomania, a dose usually given to bipolar people.

GotAnxiety, I know I've asked this before but do you think my brain will go back to normal on its own eventually if I don't take meds? Despite the fact some of my bad days feel just as awful as they did in the beginning, overall I am seeing an improvement from 2 years ago--my ability to function during them is higher, and most of the time they aren't quite as intense as they were back then. I


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

sorry, hit post too early. I was just going to end with, I think I'm improving overall but am worried that the longer I let the imbalance try to sort itself out, the more I'm risking it becoming "permanent." But on the other hand, if this was truly caused by Abilify/increased nicotine usage, my brain should find a way to repair itself, right? Since my symptoms are, in comparison to things like psychosis, relatively mild?


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

Because obviously if my imbalance was so severe as to cause psychosis or permanent depression/anxiety, I wouldn't be trying to tough it out--I'd be getting meds because I'd definitely need it. 

If I were to go on meds later, though, would a treatment for bipolarity be the right way to go? What's used in bipolarity, typically?


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

Yeah it just take time it like a traumatic event your brain experienced even 2 years after your brain is having still having flash backs it sounds like these are lessening with time and getting farther apart?

It could take up to 8 years. There no really given time on these things from my experience. I'm sorry this is the best answer I could give. But its the most realistic in terms of the brain repairing it self.

If you do go on medication go on a low dose and see if that helps. Play it safe don't jump on the max dose. Gradually taper find a dose you feel comfortable with stay there get stabilzed.


----------



## istayhome (Apr 4, 2012)

Many people misunderstand Bipolar II Disorder. There is a huge spectrum of how it manifests itself in different people. Many psychiatrists don't even catch it. Some people are at the depressed end of the s[ectrum, some at the hypomanic, and some in-between. I am at the depressed end, cycling between deep depression and mostly normal. Lamictal is the safest and most effective treatment for this.

Also I did not say that you had bipolar II before you started Abilify and just didn't know it. I am saying that due to your genetics you had the tendency to develop bipolar depending on the situation. Then you were on Abilify and experienced a bunch of trauma and life changes at which the Bipolar gene 'turned on' if you will. But the Abilify you were taking kept it from manifesting so once you discontinued Abilify, the Bipolar then became noticeable. 

It is very incorrect that Abilify could cause a lasting psychological problem for you. You've been off of it for two years, it did not cause your brain to change in any such way that would still be problematic now. The only thing it could do is to trigger a psychological issue which you already had anyways and just hadn't shown itself yet.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

Thank you again for all your help, GotAnxiety; and istayhome thank you for your help as well. I apologize for misunderstanding what you meant. Admittedly I may be defensive because that's the one thing I've been dreading most: that this imbalance will not go away because it *is* an inherent part of me, that perhaps I do have a mood disorder that was revealed by, but not caused by, the Abilify.

I'm still getting various tests done just in case--adrenal tests for Cushing's, hormone panels for PMDD and such--but if these come back normal, I know I'm going to have to face the possibility of medication, whether what's going on with me is permanent or not.

It's comforting to know that my brain is not "damaged" by the Abilify, but I can't help but wonder, still, if this is a mild form of Dopamine Agonist Withdrawal Syndrome, since the symptoms match so closely. 

I've heard that people with protracted withdrawal from *any* psych drug experience episodes like what I have experienced: days of normality interrupted by days of panic and depression, night sweats, morning insomnia, heartbeat irregularities, blurry vision, etc. And yes, GotAnxiety, the episodes seem to be getting better and less frequent, albeit slowly and erratically at times. But compared to where I was 2 years ago, I'm much, much better; this is another reason, besides fear, that I'm resistant to a diagnosis of bipolarity, though I am preparing myself for that possibility. 

I really appreciate both of your help (especially G.A.'s advice and support). I will update the thread or post again if any changes occur in the following months. Hopefully anyone going through what I'm going through will be able to find solace and answers from my (and our collective) experience.


----------



## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

When I said 8 years. I didn't mean for it to come off so harshly. By year 4 it should be uncommon for the episodes. By year 6 it should be rare. Year 8 you should be pretty much near normal. Cheer up! your almost half way there!

Yeah that a good idea getting your adrenals checked.

I'm just curious how does caffeine effect you and those episodes?


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

No, it's okay, I knew what you meant  Like I said, I'm much better now than I was 2 years ago, it's just hard for me to see the improvement when I'm in the middle of an "episode" because I feel so hopeless. But they are less frequent and overall less severe, so I try to take solace in the fact that I'm always moving forward.

Caffeine was a huge part of my diet before I took Abilify; I was going to school full-time and working 50 hours a week waiting tables, so when I say I survived on coffee and Red Bull, I'm barely exaggerating, haha. A lot of sweet tea and Mountain Dew, too. I have supraventricular tachycardia, but for some reason it rarely bothered me regardless of my caffeine consumption; ever since the Abilify (and esp. since the pregnancy, despite losing the weight) the attacks occur way more often. Before, it was about 6 times a year. After the Abilify, without caffeine it's once or twice a week. With caffeine, it happens daily, whether I'm in an "episode day" or not. :/

During the really bad days, caffeine definitely intensifies the panic. I've decided to give it up for now and see if in the future (like in 6 months to a year) I can try to have a cup of coffee or green tea every few days or so.

I'm also cutting my nicotine level down and hope to stop using the ecig entirely eventually, but I'm not rushing myself to quit too fast (I'm scared to cold-turkey anything now, haha).

I recently read a forum post somewhere about a man who'd used TwinLabs Amino Fuel and magnesium to help his anxiety; he claimed he was cured and hadn't felt any anxiety since using the combination. After reading the list of essential amino acids in it, I figured I'd give it a shot.

My "episode," which had been relatively mild this time around, was in day 4. I took my first dose of Amino Fuel with some NAC and an hour later, the anxiety started fading. It was still there, but diminished quite a bit. The next morning, I felt totally normal! Maybe a coincidence, but I figure I'll stick with it and see what happens.

So now it's three days later, and still no anxiety or depression, just normal pre-"lady time" moodiness (sorry for tmi, haha--but I'm excited that I'm feeling NORMAL things, not euphoria to make me question my stability, nor depression/anxiety again). I've been taking 46 mL (3 Tbsp) of Amino Fuel on an empty stomach in the morning, and 600 mg twice a day of NAC with lunch and dinner.

My hair-pulling and skin-picking has also decreased by about 30%! I think the NAC is definitely helping with that one.

I'll keep you updated as much as I can. Hope you're doing well


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

PS: Not sure why but whenever I type "where I was 2" it links to some random amazon product. I can't figure out how to take it away. Just ignore it, not relevant, haha.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

Just an update! I've been on the Twinlabs Amino Fuel (40 mL a day, though I think I could lower it and still be okay) for a little over a week. I've been taking magnesium 250 mg with it every morning for the last 4 days on an empty stomach, and today I just added a little over a teaspoon of L-Glutamine powder to the regimen. For now I'm taking the NAC intermittently, but plan to add it permanently once my stomach gets used to the magnesium.

On the whole, I feel a lot better than I have been. The first week, it was difficult to tell if I had simply "finished a bad episode" on my own, and if the good mood I was in was attributed to the Amino Fuel or coincidence--i.e. if I'd have been having "good days" regardless of the supplements.

Yesterday, for no reason (as usual--there never seems to be a clear reason) I woke up and knew I had entered a bad episode. I woke up with adrenaline, sweat, and the usual panicky feelings--but it was much more subdued than usual, and I was able to ignore it most of the day and just push through. Today has been the same; when I added the L-glutamine, I noticed my symptoms almost completely went away.

So overall, it seems to be helping a LOT. While I foolishly hoped for instant complete relief, I know I need to be patient while my body and brain pull the aminos and nutrients they need and start to repair themselves. Whether that happens with natural supplements or psychiatric medications, it requires time; I just keeping telling myself that.

If I had to quantify it somehow...my good days are more energetic physically and my bad days have gotten knocked down from, on a scale of one to ten, 8-10 to 1-3. Sometimes I can tell, physically, I'm having another bad day, but emotionally I feel totally fine.

To sum up, I feel a hell of a lot better. I'm also using my DayLight therapy lamp every day, spending as much time as I can outside even though it's cold, and starting to become more physically active--though I'm on a break from actually going to the gym. Just working in more walking wherever I can. 

My current doctor agrees that the Abilify I took two years ago set off a chemical imbalance, either by causing it or exacerbating it. She ran CBC's and cortisol tests and a bunch of others; all came back normal, which she took as confirmation of the chemical imbalance, and thinks this supplement regimen has some serious science to back it up. She still told me to keep the script for Lexapro in case I need it, but seemed optimistic about the supplements given my improvements after just a few days.

Anyway...that's all for now. I'm hoping the improvements continue; maybe the next bad episode will be even more mitigated, and then the next, until I don't have any at all. Here's hoping! Best of luck, everyone.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

*Another update...*

I'm still on my regimen (40 mL Twinlabs Amino Fuel, 500--750 mg Magnesium, 1 tsp l-glutamine powder, and 1200--2400 mg n acetylcysteine, or NAC, all daily) and wanted to post an update on how I'm doing.

I had a few mild "episodes" the first month of the regimen. The second month--NONE. Not even little "twinges" of anxiety and depression like I sometimes get during my good days. It was a fantastic month, one of the longest windows I've had in a long time, and by far the best: I felt completely like my old (pre-Abilify) self, and even had my sex drive back, which was complete **** ever since giving birth in late 2012.

The last 5 days have been a little rough--not that episode is particularly bad, in fact compared to most of my episodes, it's pretty mild. They were rough because I'd let myself believe, during that one-month window of "life is wonderful again, hallelujah," that all of this was behind me, and I was cured.

Like I said, this episode has been pretty okay, despite my disappointment (my own fault at having silly expectations!) I woke up with the usual symptoms of pounding heart, feverish feeling in head, extreme panic, sweating...but as soon as I took my supplements, each day, the panic would wind down and settle into a mild depression. This depression would lift throughout the day, and my motivation to get out and do things--be around people and still enjoy things--was pretty high. As usual for most of my episodes, I'd feel completely normal again by very late evening.

Anyway...the episode is still going on, but it feels like it's nearing the end, and I'm hoping and praying the next window of good days will be like the last one was--a month or maybe even more, and full of wonderful memories I can look back on during the next episode, to comfort myself and say, "See? Life is good. This will end," whether the next episode is mild or severe.

I've also been praying. A lot. I know not everyone believes in it, some may even roll their eyes at it, but it has helped me more than anything. When things felt completely hopeless, talking to God comforted me in a way nothing else could, and continues to do so. I've never been religious, but going through something like this, especially for 2 years, has taught me to give up control because I do not have any--and the way I see it, I can either give it up to DAWS, or to God, and I'd rather give it to God.  Just my beliefs; again, I know and respect that not everyone believes the same things.

The hardest part is holding onto hope that *this. will. end.* All of it. I have to believe that someday, hopefully soon, I'll enter a window that will never end, that I'll be healed. I just want to put DAWS behind me forever. Hopefully this recent episode is nothing more than a bump in the road to recovery.

To sum up, I feel better overall. I'll keep updating every few months or if anything changes. And again, best of luck, everyone.


----------



## kingofanxiety (Mar 4, 2014)

Any updates Zoey? Hope you are getting along well!


----------



## mgrz (Feb 7, 2012)

ZoeyBallantine said:


> -Late December 2011: I switched from the Blu brand e-cig to an Ego-T, which is the huge pen-style e-cig and operates by heating the liquid directly on the mechanism (instead of a small amount in cotton that's heated up by the mechanism). My nicotine increased and my usage increased, because the Ego hit better and lasted longer.
> -January: quit the Abilify cold-turkey, and you know the rest.


I love vaping. Well, actually I'd say I have more of a love-hate relationship with nicotine - it helps a lot with anxiety; the nicotine has a tendency to clear up my head. The downside is that I'm constantly anxious, so I do it all the time. On top of this it almost always makes me feel lethargic, intermittently gives me acid reflux (I keep antacids on hand) and sometimes makes me feel a bit asthmatic.

Another thing is that, for me, it's been habit forming. I find myself using it out of boredom or passively whilst I'm sat at the PC or watching a film. It's not so bad but when people start noticing they start judging. It'd be okay if I was taking tablets for my anxiety (I do, venlafaxine - but it only works for my depression - and pretty well) but a lot of people just see the nicotine as a problem - thankfully my partner doesn't mind it.

Are you still on the Ego-T? I use a Vamo v5 at the moment and prior to that an Innokin iTaste but I ditched it because of the battery life. I've found a lot of the e-liquids to be pretty nasty tasting though I've taken a liking to RY4 and rock sugar. Red bull and cola ain't bad but the latter burns in my cartos a lot.


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

kingofanxiety said:


> Any updates Zoey? Hope you are getting along well!


Thank you for asking, King--I'm doing GREAT!

My last post was right around another episode, and since then I've had a couple very mild ones--at first it was a day or two of slight panic, basically all my usual symptoms but a little softer. Then it became little "twinges" a few days every so often. Then it all stopped!

For the last two months I haven't had any of my old symptoms, even though I was in the middle of planning my wedding and thought for sure an episode would creep up on me. In fact, I had fun planning the wedding!

I'm still on the regimen, and in another month I plan to change it to every other day--but I think I'll continue the magnesium, 250 mg twice a day, on a daily basis. That seems to help the most now that the Amino Fuel has helped restore my neurotransmitter balance (at least I assume that's what it did, since no one can know for sure, I guess).

I also just finished my first cycle of p90x3, and lost 14 lbs! That's amazing for me because I'm a total couch potato, haha.

The only issue I'm having now is with alcohol and smoking; I can drink again (the last two years it was HELL if I even had a beer--I felt great till the next morning; it seemed to trigger/worsen the episodes), but I have to be sensible. It's not how much I drink that's the issue, it's the frequency for some reason; four shots or even just one beer, on one night, is fine. No problems. But two nights in a row, and I can feel just a hint of my old symptoms returning, and my body is a wreck.

Smoking-wise, I'm still vaping, but I've cut down my nicotine to 8%, the lowest my local vape store sells. Anything higher and I feel nauseous and a little anxious. But cutting down my drinking and nicotine is a good thing, so I don't mind these last two residual symptoms, haha.

If anyone's interested in trying the regimen, go for it! I'm recommending it to everyone I know with anxiety/depression who isn't on medication or is thinking of quitting theirs (though I will say as a caveat, you have to be off it six weeks first, and I'm not sure how it works if you're tapering, since I'd been med-free for two years by the time I started the regimen).

I feel like my old self again, better even, and I hope my experience can help someone else.  I'll try to update as often as I can!


----------



## ZoeyBallantine (Nov 16, 2013)

mgrz said:


> I love vaping. Well, actually I'd say I have more of a love-hate relationship with nicotine - it helps a lot with anxiety; the nicotine has a tendency to clear up my head. The downside is that I'm constantly anxious, so I do it all the time. On top of this it almost always makes me feel lethargic, intermittently gives me acid reflux (I keep antacids on hand) and sometimes makes me feel a bit asthmatic.
> 
> Another thing is that, for me, it's been habit forming. I find myself using it out of boredom or passively whilst I'm sat at the PC or watching a film. It's not so bad but when people start noticing they start judging. It'd be okay if I was taking tablets for my anxiety (I do, venlafaxine - but it only works for my depression - and pretty well) but a lot of people just see the nicotine as a problem - thankfully my partner doesn't mind it.
> 
> Are you still on the Ego-T? I use a Vamo v5 at the moment and prior to that an Innokin iTaste but I ditched it because of the battery life. I've found a lot of the e-liquids to be pretty nasty tasting though I've taken a liking to RY4 and rock sugar. Red bull and cola ain't bad but the latter burns in my cartos a lot.


I had the same problem at first with the acid reflux, but I've since switched to organic liquids and that helped immensely--now I only get mild reflux if I'm vaping a heavy/dark flavor. Have you tried Avail liquids? I get mine from a shop in my hometown, but they have them available online as well. The Fuzz is my favorite--it's a peach flavor, sweet but not overpowering--and they don't burn my wicks up nearly as fast as other brands I've tried. And the prices are pretty good too, especially for the quality (I promise I don't work for them, though I'm sure it seems like it, haha).

I'm still using my Ego-T. I just switched the system from a drip-tip atomizer to a bottom-coil wick tank, and I LOVE it. It doesn't spill or leak, and the throat hit is amazing (even as I've stepped down my nicotine, the hit stayed consistent).

Oh I totally know what you mean about it being so habitual. If I don't have the Ego on hand while I'm driving, I start chewing my cheek. :/ My goal is to cut back my usage until I only vape while drinking or at parties (times I know I'm prone to cigarette bumming, haha), but it's really hard when the habit itself is so engrained. It's like even when I don't want the nicotine, I want the physical action of vaping!

Try some organic, all-natural liquids in your system and let me know if that helps the lethargy and acid reflux!

Taylor

(ps, my real name is Taylor, haha. but feel free to call me zoey too  )


----------

