# A Remarkable Compound: Nardil Notes and Observations



## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

For those of you who're unfamiliar with Nardil:

it is one of the oldest known antidepressants. It is sometimes regarded as the best monotherapy for extinguishing social anxiety. It's an MAOI, or more specifically a non-selective irreversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase with a complex mode of action. It was invented in the 1950s after a similar compound used to treat tuberculosis was accidentally discovered to make people happy. Since then, science has not been able to find a compound capable of producing a statistically significantly better antidepressant effect. It's rarely prescribed anymore due to a heavy side-effect profile and especially because of its interaction with ubiquitous sympathomimetic drugs such as pseudoephedrine, serotonergic agents such as Prozac and tyramine containing foods like blue cheese. The risks of these interactions have unfortunately been grossly overestimated in the context of a sane person observing reasonable precautions. Most doctors nowadays are simply clueless about Nardil, and heavily influenced by modern psychopharmacological orthodoxy driven by the profit oriented pharmaceutical industry, have been swayed to overprescribe SSRIs and newer patentable compounds to the detriment of 99% of SA sufferers who are unaware even of the existence of MAOIs. The legacy of irreversible non-selective MAOIs seems destined for relegation to warning labels on the back of cough medicines and bottles of Paxil.

Below are some notes from my first trial with this stuff. I hope someone finds it useful.

*Day 2*_*:*_ I took my second dose of Nardil tonight. I'm on 15mg/day for another five doses. Nothing significant to report. Last night I may have had some minor *insomnia* and there may be some slight exacerbation of obsessive tendencies.

*Day 13*: Second last day at 30mg. Obsessiveness is gone. *Constipation* appeared early on at 15mg and I treated it adequately with metamucil and being careful with my diet. The major side effects right now are *fatigue/stupidity/sleep problems*. Sleep quantity seems okay but sleep architecture has been altered. I wake up feeling unrested. Some depression experienced close to morning dosing which dissipated later in the day, however, overall my mood is decreased and anxiety seems relatively unaltered. Happily my plethora of facial tics that returned after weaning off Celexa is 80% gone. Blushing is significantly decreased as well.

I'm experiencing strange existential crisis-ey thoughts. My thought patterns are being restructured on a fundamental level. This feels different from merely being "on something" where you think differently for a while then wake up the next day and ponder the experience with your "normal" mind. Here there is no going back. I took the red pill. What does it mean to be altered like this? What is my personality anyway but just a collection of thought patterns and associated behaviors? Just what am "I" anyway? I had a few scary days of realizing I could just *off myself* and it wouldn't matter (highly abnormal for me). I got through it telling myself there are numerous transient side-effects and that Nardil is likely my only hope at total or near total escape from this abyss. Someone mentioned that Nardil feels like being on 10 drugs at once. I tend to concur. I perceive multiple orthogonal effects happening at once. Perhaps this is due to Nardil's many modes of action.

I'm considering going straight to 45mg tomorrow instead of waiting the extra day, due to tolerable side-effects.

*Day 22*: 4th day on 60mg. I've had several days where I felt great for several hours during the day. When this happens, depression lifts and confidence increases. Strong *eye contact* and a strange ability to quell self-criticism before it becomes erosive. An analogy would be my normal mind as a tumultuous ocean with thoughts bubbling up randomly and uncontrollably like so many waves breaking the stormy surface. With my Nardil-mind the weather is calm and the water's surface tension is viscous and elastic. When a negative thought threatens to bubble up too far into awareness I can swallow it back down to the pre-semantic ocean's floor from whence it came. This effect is transitory though as I seem to return to baseline many hours after the morning (6am) dose.

Today I experienced no euphoria really but my mood wasn't bad. *Confidence* was only slightly better than average. *Constipation* is gone and I experienced no *bloating* or *urinary hesitation*. *Suicidal thoughts* are gone. Unsettling ruminations over the nature of personality remain. I seem to get a lot of lactic acid buildup during workouts or even doing anything mildly strenuous. I also woke up with a terrible leg cramp last night that lasted a frighteningly long time. *Anorgasmia* appeared yesterday although sexual function is otherwise unaffected or slightly improved. I REALLY enjoy eating and weekly workout frequency has decreased from 4.5X to 2X per week. Possible partial cause for both is a strange inertia/focus where I don't want to stop what I'm doing, whatever that may be: internet, cleaning, eating, shopping, etc. So, I'm unsure of the benefit at this point but I'm fairly hopeful. I'll bump up to 75mg when I get to Cuba tomorrow.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

*Part II*:

*Day 35*: 75mg for about ten days now, I decided to bump up while in Cuba due to tolerable side-effects. Cuba was great. I drank too many beers and piña coladas but I was generally very talkative and *confident* in a way that I'm not while just drinking. Lots of eye-contact and chatting with guests and employees at the resort. I was chatted up twice by an extremely beautiful girl.

I had two frightening moments that week. The first was when I got a really bad hiccup attack and thought I might be experiencing some kind of weird Nardil seizure. Logic went out the window and I panicked terribly. I tried to remain as calm as possible but inside I was dying. This set the tone for the rest of the evening so when I got up in the middle of the night to pee and got *orthostatic hypotension* my brain went haywire. I used to get orthostatic hypotension a lot before Nardil, so I'm very used to what it feels like and for everything to go fuzzy/grey and weird as the blood drains from my brain. This time, however, the dissociation caused some intense primitive fear. I got panicky the next day as well but I managed to focus on something else long enough to make the thought pattern extinct. A small dose of Xanax helped. Ever since, things have been going very well.

I keep making these connections, like how my thinking has been so distorted for so many years. I used to be concerned with absolute accuracy, utter veracity and completeness when making a statement. I can now see shades of grey a lot clearer and how feelings are much more important than excessive pedantry. I think previously I used these things as a self-validation tool and as a self-protection mechanism. If I made perfect statements beyond reproach, how could anyone focus on me or question me? I now realize how useless this way of thinking was. I don't give a **** if people think I'm smart now.

Right now my brain is in problem solving mode. All *cognitive issues* are resolved or enhanced, apart from the ones associated with pure *lack of sleep* (I'm getting about 3 per night right now). An hour after my morning dose I get a monoamine rush with an increase in pulse or blood pressure. This lasts about an hour and isn't unpleasant. I used to smoke only occasionally as I never got much pleasure from it but now I really enjoy it. I also like to have a morning coffee which seems to kick-start my day. I'm investing all my energy in two things: 1) getting stuff done such as researching classes and jobs, figuring out stuff I need to buy and how to use it to manage my life better, cleaning up and organizing, etc. and 2) determining where the errors are in my thought process and attempting to fix them behaviorally and cognitively. Although I've been exposed to CBT briefly in the past, I actually feel like I'm spontaneously adopting/using some of its techniques. All of this seems to be happening instinctively. I'm trying to be proactive about eradicating and recognizing any negative unproductive thoughts. I didn't realize how many there were until now. The biggest insight so far has been that I spend a HUGE amount of energy out in public focusing on other people, trying to figure out if they like me, how much they like me and trying to make them like me more. I now pay no attention to people on the street unless I myself find THEM interesting enough to  look at or engage. I stay involved in my own thing. I'm already seeing a change in my self esteem and in the way others deal with me. SSRIs NEVER had the ability to open my eyes in this way.

Focus and purpose are clear. I feel like I can get anything done with sufficient time. Desire to sleep is very low - hypnophobia, sort of amphetamine-like. Drive is high (though *libido* is very low). I have no idea if I have *anorgasmia* at the moment as I just don't care about finding out. All I want to do is fix my life, so the lack of sleep doesn't bother me too much. *My weight has not gone up*. In fact I've lost about 5-7 pounds down from 165, but some of that is muscle. I just don't eat that much, although I really ****ing enjoy it when I do. Some real *orthostatic hypotension* appeared today. I'm feeling very tired and my blood pressure is rather low at around 110/72. Down about 15/12 and pulse is up by about 7-10 BPM. Paradoxically, the more tired I am, the better I feel. Mid-day is the worst for fatigue but also the strongest therapeutically. I'm very clumsy with slightly slurred speech, dry mouth and sensitivity to cold (wearing a t-shirt, three cardigans, winter coat and hat inside). The coldness gets worse in the evening as the Nardil wears off. The cramps and lactic acid issue are partially but not completely remedied with small doses (10mg) of vitamin B6 and potassium via bananas and coconut water. Interestingly my daily Nardil window of greatest benefit is about one half-life ~11 hours. If this keeps working and isn't just some hypomanic phenethylamined illusion and the side effects abate at least partially (especially the libido issue), then this may actually work.


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

Most people do experience a hypomanic period on Nardil, mine lasted about a month, but I still felt great when it was gone. It's typical to have such a period in early stages, but it also increases with long-term use. Although i welcome it; I may act overly uninhibited.. But it's a great deal of fun.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

ChopSuey said:


> Most people do experience a hypomanic period on Nardil, mine lasted about a month, but I still felt great when it was gone. It's typical to have such a period in early stages, but it also increases with long-term use. Although i welcome it; I may act overly uninhibited.. But it's a great deal of fun.


I also experienced the hypomania both times I started Nardil, it really does feel great while it lasts (; I also got hypomania at the start up of Celexa which faded so I assume it's due to serotonin increase early on

Sounds like you're doing pretty well giftofgaba! Keep going strong on the Nardil

Chop, I'm curious, is 75mg the bare minimum for you to keep Nardil's effects and MAO inhibition going or is that just the dose you prefer to stay on? I get pretty bad hypotension and fatigue after a few weeks even on just 60mg let alone 75 lol, I'm hoping I can reach a point where I can pretty much take any dose without horrible side effects like you have some day


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

hworth said:


> I also experienced the hypomania both times I started Nardil, it really does feel great while it lasts (; I also got hypomania at the start up of Celexa which faded so I assume it's due to serotonin increase early on
> 
> Sounds like you're doing pretty well giftofgaba! Keep going strong on the Nardil
> 
> Chop, I'm curious, is 75mg the bare minimum for you to keep Nardil's effects and MAO inhibition going or is that just the dose you prefer to stay on? I get pretty bad hypotension and fatigue after a few weeks even on just 60mg let alone 75 lol, I'm hoping I can reach a point where I can pretty much take any dose without horrible side effects like you have some day


Yeah, anything less than 75mg doesn't work for me. I had terrible hypotension in the beginning, but it's totally gone now.. I can only ever feel it anymore if i take 150mg+


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## HeavyweightSoul (Jul 24, 2012)

Wow, this sounds great so far. Keep us updated. Are you using Gavis Nardil or the greenstone nardil?


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

It's the Canadian Erfa version which is probably the same as Pfizer's version.


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## swim (Apr 4, 2011)

your previous avatar showed the current pfizer's nardil pill, yet many say that the old formula was better.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

1) I figure, the worst the excipients can do is clog up some of the compound and make it unassimilable. Theoretically then, a larger dose of my crap should have the same effect as the Gavis variety.

2) Another possibility is that something in the excipients reacts with the Nardil and inactivates it chemically with the same outcome as 1)

3) Or, the quality control of this version is low and the dose is inconsistent. This would be a worse outcome but still, you'd be getting phenelzine at some dose.

4) The worst scenario would be that something in there antagonizes phenelzine somehow. I see this as a very low probability scenario probably also remediable by an increased dose.

So, in all cases, an increased dose should fix the problem more or less, if I'm not being overly optimistic.


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

I've seen the original ingredients list for Nardil and it was all natural unremarkable added compounds, so why they'd make phenelzine any different than it is today is beyond me. But I've not tried the "old" Nardil so i can't say for certain.


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## CD700 (Apr 22, 2010)

Do many AD's get reformulated ?
It's all a bit sus


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

*Part III*:
*

Day 45* (6.5 weeks): So a total of close to three weeks, a relative lack of side effects including a small mitigation of sexual side effects and disappearance of muscular weakness brought me to the conclusion that I should move to 90mg (my ultimate dose) from 75mg. I will now sit at this dose for 8 weeks and bump up only if most sides are mitigated. I can find a way to get to 105mg if need be, but seeing as few people have required this dose, I view that as kind of a last resort and probably unnecessary given my current status.

So what was my experience at 75mg? Well, I was getting better at interacting with people. Eye contact was good and appropriate for the situation. I cracked small jokes and made small inquiries toward sales people such as: "how was your New Year's, did you do anything special?" No euphoria or anything, I think that's done and I'm okay with that.

The main sides were *very low libido*, *low blood pressure*, *orthostatic hypotension*, much increased appetite, muscular weakness, tiredness and * insomnia*. One very interesting thing about the OH is that whenever I experience it, I get a horrible panic attack! This had never been a problem for me before Nardil. Now what was/is strange about these panic attacks is that they lasted only so long as the OH was there and then they ended completely. No aftershocks. Normally with a panic attack I tend to dwell on it for days or longer, but here the fear was demolished upon actual cessation of the original fear. Duration about 1 minute. Strange huh?

Now I'm at 90mg and feeling lovely. I used to get irritated by small things but now I feel my patience is unlimited. I interact socially (just the usual interaction at retail stores) and I find myself quite charming. I confronted my girlfriend about some negative things and she responded positively. I feel like my emotional load has been octupled where I can handle just about any stressors including quite negative criticism. I expect the full 90mg effect to kick in within a few days if history is any guide. Quite simply, this is lovely.

Side effects have begun piling on though. Most people's 45mg description seems to match what I'm getting now. Bad *Nardil farts* and now no libido again have been added to the usual suspects: *tiredness*/sleepiness (treated with caffeine), *OH* and* low blood pressure *(102/70) as well as insane appetite and enjoyment of junk food. Sensory experience is slightly altered: I don't get the same enjoyment from poignant music and food tastes gorgeous. An acceptable trade-off for now.

I am loving this compound!


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

GiftofGABA said:


> I am loving this compound!


I can very much relate to a lot of what you write, and i miss that period. I don't want to be a party pooper, but for me I experienced a blissful period of a few months, then it kinda evened out. I still am free from social anxiety, but the unlimited patience and lovely feeling is gone.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks for the post Nardil buddy. I'll add that it's not all sunshine and farts. Ploughing through the fatigue and being up at weird hours is taking its toll. Being free of social anxiety would be a sufficient outcome and I don't expect anything else. The near unlimited tolerance to criticism is truly nice though. I can respond to anyone in the most mature manner with utmost respect. I do hope that persists if only in the form that total absence from SA would seem to permit from my current perspective.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

*PART iV*

I was asked to update this thread more regularly so here goes:

*Day 47*: I'm getting some pretty severe sides now at 90mg that were not apparent at 75mg. These are your typical sides that you see other people complaining about at 45mg-60mg. I'd say the *hypotension* is the worst. Sometimes I can't even see properly. Staring too long at a light source causes lasting afterimages that blur out people and oncoming traffic for a good 30 minutes. Standing induces an unpleasant orthostatic head rush that I deal with by bending over and sort of shuffling along for a certain time, not wanting to re-experience another nasty *hypotensive* panic attack. I'm just now, as we speak beginning to get the urinary retention that people talk about. *Libido* remains crushed.

I still take all of the dose upon waking as I like to feel Nardil doing its thing. However, now at 90mg I don't feel it kicking in, unlike at 75mg. This may be because I've recognized that I must eat a meal beforehand to avoid a strong hypertensive reaction. One morning, on an empty stomach, I experienced something really bad: intense headache, not quite occipital but overall in most of the head and a bit occipitally. I also got a lot of abdominal pain. I thought I must've massively fυcked up. Seriously concerned, I treated it successfully with _doxazosin_, an alpha-1 blocker. I'd recommend to all that you have something like this by your side, especially if you're just starting.

_Social anxiety_ is now essentially gone. I'd say it's there at maybe 5-10%. I could easily start up a conversation with an attractive girl and get shot down, not worrying about it afterwards. Depression is completely absent. I wake up and start my day like a normal person. This might be the right dose if I can get over the side effects.

One final small thing that I'd like to add is that I'm experiencing very mild visual and auditory hallucinations. Once in a while, I seem to perceive strange movements from light sources or reflections that are briefly interpreted as insects or something. The auditory hallucinations manifest simply as perceived sounds with no meaning. These arise from distortions from real sound information that is occurring. They are not a fake sensation derived from a non-existent auditory source. Very very subtle, and transient i hope.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

CD700 said:


> Do many AD's get reformulated ?
> It's all a bit sus


Why? It was reformulated to cut down on cost no doubt. No reason to suspect it should be less potent. The minority faction out there who had Nardil stop working probably just need a higher dose. Other than than their reaction reeks of paranoia.


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## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

I made it up to 75 mg once on Nardil. It absolutely beasted me. I had insomnia, muscle weakness, my back hurt, slept from 12-4 AM, couldn't piss well at all (smooth muscle contraction I think because of its super effect on norepinephrine), also had huge cold intolerances, mind was foggy yet motivated at the same time (mix of GABA-T inhibition + NE boosting maybe?)

Anyways, I ended up going off of it, it ended up sucking some pretty big balls.

Then I tried it again at 45 and boy was it different. I got about 6-7 hours of sleep, manageable cold intolerance, great on anxiety, not so great on depression. Every side effect I believe was manageable at this dose, it unfortunately caused me to have mixed states because I think I have agitated depression ( NE = me more depressed/suicidal). SSRI's and benzos work well with me. 

Nardil works VERY well though for the people that it does help! But you'll know. Nardil is a game changer in the right people.

Anyways, I've been on Nardil 3-4 times and have read up super extensively on MAOI, let me know if you have any questions.

Some quick notes

- Usually felt the most cold after taking Nardil because it probably was converted to PEA and NE increases make me cold. It helped splitting the dose. Not sure if you have this SE.

- 90+ days seems like the average to when you know that it REALLY works. All people that have had their anxiety/depression remit usually were around that time period (Mr.T, oioioi123, Shy-one, I forgot one user's name but I think he was indian.)

- Had multiple B6 tests done and Nardil doesn't actually seem to lower it by anything, just avoid going to mega doses since that can interfere with the drug.

- OH usually always evens out and goes away, it just might take a longgggg time. 

**Forgot that I had afternoon tiredness, that was IMPOSSIBLE to weather at 75mg. I'd go to sleep. Never had a hypertensive issue, ate whatever the **** I want even at 75 mg. Possibly idiotic but when you're depressed I wouldn't mind dying so I figured **** it. **


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> (Mr.T, oioioi123, Shy-one, I forgot one user's name but I think he was indian.)


Ashwin 



gilmourr said:


> - OH usually always evens out and goes away, it just might take a longgggg time.
> 
> **Forgot that I had afternoon tiredness, that was IMPOSSIBLE to weather at 75mg. I'd go to sleep. Never had a hypertensive issue, ate whatever the **** I want even at 75 mg. Possibly idiotic but when you're depressed I wouldn't mind dying so I figured **** it. **


All side effects lessen greatly with time, most even disappear. I had literally all common side effects when i started, now 1 year later I have no side effects at all. Perhaps it would've worked out for you (side effect wise) if you stayed on it longer.

And very few people become sensitive to tyramine when on MAOI.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Well thank you gilmourr, I appreciate your offer to help. I suspect you have a lot of good suggestions from your many experiences with Nardil. I agree with most of what you said and sympathize with your bad luck trialing Nardil. If you do give it another shot, we'll all be here to help with the best information available. This particular sub-forum can be a great resource for brainstorming solutions from its many well-meaning contributors. The trick is to recognize the correct issues and ask the right questions.

Was the other member you mentioned called Ashwin?

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...s-nardil-for-soc-anx-testimony-part-i-126770/


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

GiftofGABA said:


> Was the other member you mentioned called Ashwin?
> 
> http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...s-nardil-for-soc-anx-testimony-part-i-126770/


Ah yes, i wrote Skywin, but it was indeed Ashwin. He seemed like a cool guy, would love to hear an update from him.


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## fineline (Oct 21, 2011)

when you go a month without posting or even logging in on this forum, then it will be safe to assume nardil has actually worked for you, instead of you just hyping yourself up, making it only seem to have helped you. 

i tend to believe that if it really was that helpful of a drug, doctors would still be prescribing it, regardless of its side effects. doctors prescribe loads of crap and could care less about the side effects it may cause you. takes less than 5 minutes of browsing this entire forum for that to become apparent.

nice effort though


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

allornothing said:


> when you go a month without posting or even logging in on this forum, then it will be safe to assume nardil has actually worked for you, instead of you just hyping yourself up, making it only seem to have helped you.
> 
> i tend to believe that if it really was that helpful of a drug, doctors would still be prescribing it, regardless of its side effects. doctors prescribe loads of crap and could care less about the side effects it may cause you. takes less than 5 minutes of browsing this entire forum for that to become apparent.
> 
> nice effort though


It seems you've missed how big pharma works. The focus has always been to earn as much money as possible. How much money do big pharma get from old medicines = Nada/zilch/finito. Most doctors are just puppets following what big pharma wants.

Parnate/Nardil also fell out of favour not only because they generate no money, there's also a chance people can die from them. Which makes both doctors and big pharma susceptible for lawsuits, which means increased risk and possibility of losing money.

Third, the psychiatrists that went to med school the past 30 years barely touched the subject irreversible MAOIs, a lot of them barely know what it is. And naturally people won't prescribe stuff they can't comprehend.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

allornothing said:


> when you go a month without posting or even logging in on this forum, then it will be safe to assume nardil has actually worked for you, instead of you just hyping yourself up, making it only seem to have helped you.
> 
> i tend to believe that if it really was that helpful of a drug, doctors would still be prescribing it, regardless of its side effects. doctors prescribe loads of crap and could care less about the side effects it may cause you. takes less than 5 minutes of browsing this entire forum for that to become apparent.
> 
> nice effort though


Dude, many of those people who keep logging in are just trying to benefit this sub-forum where they previously were helped, ChopSuey being a notable example. He was genuinely cured over a year ago but still returns to add great value here.

I've only been on Nardil for about 7 weeks and as gilmourr pointed out above and what is generally accepted by those who have ultimately reaped the greatest benefit from Nardil is that it takes 90 days to reach its full steady-state effect, therefore going a month without logging in here isn't applicable to my situation anyway. I made this detailed journal in the spirit of camaraderie to help people compare their own struggles with this challenging but powerful compound and not as you suggest, to deceive myself or others, trying to convince the universe that this is actually working when it really isn't. What I write is completely what I experienced, the good and the bad and the ugly, and I freely admit that ultimately things may not work out in the end.
Most doctors don't even know what MAOIs are, apart from what they gather from the calm man's voice at the end of anti-diarrheal medication ads. Most of those that do know about Nardil are naive about this "outmoded 1950s drug's" true potential and quickly derive negative connotations about it based on unfounded fears about its hypertensive crisis potential. It's common belief that newer is better and that the pharmaceutical industry has simply been making incremental improvements over previous generations' efforts. In fact, all they've done is discover new mechanisms of action and overly focus on safety profiles while waiting for its new drug's double-blind placebo controlled therapeutic efficacy comparison study against _imipramine_ to be confirmed, disregarding the actual objective therapeutic power of their discovery. They don't really care about how potent a drug could potentially be; their motivation is purely selfish: make as much money as possible by fabricating the story of what constitutes a good psych med. So doctors will generally go along with their illusion and naively feed you the latest SSRI crap without much thought given to the individual's particular needs or the actual therapeutic strength of the medication in question.

Nardil (and Parnate) really _are_ that helpful as *72%* (33/46) of our poll respondents can attest to. This is a greater response rate than any other antidepressant medication class by a significant margin.

Also, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

GiftofGABA said:


> Text


Nicely written.


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## fineline (Oct 21, 2011)

ok chief good luck


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

*Part V*:
*

Day 50*: (7 weeks)

I'll first discuss the positives then move on to the minuses.

At 90mg, right now I seem capable of engaging in conversation with almost anyone, generating a smile on their part. I gave away a half dozen seedless mandarins to random people on the street tonight who were very happy about it. Social anxiety is close to non-existent though on the street I still do recoil vaguely from some people. I try to fix the recoil cognitively and behaviorally. I used to use certain techniques to get through social contact such as biting my bottom lip and eye aversion in order to seem focused and actively engaged on something else when I felt anxiety and attention on me. This is gone. I now have my mouth slightly open which may mean little to the readers here but to me that represents an active denial of the aforementioned behavior.

My gait has significantly changed. I used to walk with a rapid short stride but now I slow my pace, increase my stride length and walk with a vague swagger that generates some female attention. I look not too great at the moment due to nearly continuous tiredness and wearing a silly but warm trooper hat but I still seem to get a lot of attention. In short, I feel and come off as more confident.

I deal with people now with complete confidence and no arrogance. I occasionally find myself walking along with a nearly uncontrollable smile on my face. i have control over my mind and can represent my thoughts accurately and clearly. I can pay attention to people now, unfocused on internal anxiety, and respond appropriately and with my own form of wit and charm that has always been there albeit latently. It's awesome. There is some awareness of past SA but I seem to be able to suppress it rather easily by consciously denying it whenever it arises.

The negatives: well, in fact, I think sides have vaguely subsided. My *urinary retention* has 90% abated. Nardil farts are still rampant and I do try to hold them in in public despite a perverse liking for them, like smelling one's armpits after an intense rugby match. *Hypotension* and *orthostatic hypotension* are still at full strength and troublesome. The OH still induces that familiar but short-lived dread. Muscle weakness has returned at a 30% level or so. I had another near hypertensive crisis the other day. I have a bit of mad scientist in me so I like to experiment a little. I took my usual 90mg, this time on a near empty stomach to determine just how powerful that effect would be, both psychologically and BP-wise. I then walked over to the drugstore to use their accurate machine, where I measured my BP. My reading was an insane 215/110. Symptoms were strangely only a bad headache (non-occipital) this time. I had a coffee, went home and treated it with in my usual way with chewed up Doxazosin. My BP felt subjectively normal after 15 minutes. The high BP felt pretty good, apart from the headache but suffice it to say that in the future I will be ingesting a full fat containing meal to slow the Nardil absorption.

I feel rather stoned much of the time and have trouble tracking movement precisely, although cognitively I feel at 110%. I don't really like sleeping but the hypnophobia is gone. I'm usually dreadfully tired but I try to treat that as best I can with 2-3 coffees per day. I get a mild buzz from this where 1/2 of a coffee used to make me anxious for several hours. It seems that anything psychoactive has difficulty cutting through Nardil's power. In the near future I may play around with Lyrica or preferably a stimulant if I can source one. I'd prefer Modafinil over any kind of amphetamine or even Ritalin.

I'll update again soon. Take care Nardil buddies.


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## Ericsentropy (Dec 21, 2013)

"Unsettling ruminations over the nature of personality remain." 
I'm currently losing my mind to this ****! Also, at the same time I feel like the Nardil is making me incredibly stupid. I'm still very anxious, unable to leave the house but I'm still only on 30 mg on account of my doctor not knowing **** about ****. I've been on 30 mg for a month now. I find that kind of ridiculous.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I found the 30mg level to be the most uncomfortable psychologically in terms of the unsettling ruminations as well as cognitive functioning. I felt very stupid, especially verbally where I had trouble forming thoughts and coming across clearly. My ability to do simply arithmetic computations was diminished too. At my current dose all of those symptoms have improved, most notably the cognitive deficits. I hope you can get your doctor to boost your dose as most people have trouble responding to 30mg. One protocol, in fact, suggests to _start_ at 45mg.


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## puppy (Jun 27, 2012)

Awesome, love to hear Nardil success stories. Count me in among the cured!


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

why do you find provigil preferable to other psychostimulants? lyrica and stimulants fall on seemingly opposite sides of the psychotropic spectrum so it seems odd that you'd be considering either as an augmentation agent/strategy rather than just one or the other.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

ChopSuey said:


> It seems you've missed how big pharma works. The focus has always been to earn as much money as possible. How much money do big pharma get from old medicines = Nada/zilch/finito. Most doctors are just puppets following what big pharma wants.


One of the more interesting reads is the cafepharma.com forum - the Company boards are quite active. It is for pharmaceutical reps.

The doctor does not likely have time or energy to do a deep search of pubmed literature and find out what is helpful, and even if he did he would be reading plenty of studies that exist due to funding - by the very companies whos drugs are being tested. We are really our own best advocates.



> Nardil also fell out of favour not only because they generate no money, there's also a chance people can die from them. Which makes both doctors and big pharma susceptible for lawsuits, which means increased risk and possibility of losing money.


Some resources for medical personnel basically just boil it down to:MAOIs are never used because people can't eat anything on them and you'll probably just kill your patient. Seriously, this is medical intern type teaching.

"And anyway at the conference I just went to there was a panel about this new drug, schumckozam, loads of research and no hypertensive crisis risk. OF COURSE I'mgoing to prefer that. Heck, i got samples right here... Better compliance... And everyone likes free stuff."


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

basuraeuropea said:


> why do you find provigil preferable to other psychostimulants? lyrica and stimulants fall on seemingly opposite sides of the psychotropic spectrum so it seems odd that you'd be considering either as an augmentation agent/strategy rather than just one or the other.


I prefer provigil over the other more euphoric stims because I have a habit of abusing those kinds of goodies. To me they are just pure brain candy. The Lyrica idea is just by way of general experimentation. The sides on Nardil so far have been all over the place and it's not totally clear that a stimulant is what's needed in my situation, since even heavy amounts of caffeine haven't really helped much.

I wouldn't mind something anxiolytic to cut through some of the more physical quasi-anxiety sensations that I seem to get. Shaky hands. Unsteadiness on my feet. I like to know what stuff does for me on a PRN basis, even if on paper it seems apparently opposite to what I might imagine. I'm curious to know what its inhibition of norepinephrine would do anyway (and also its substance P inhibiting effect). All in all, a lot going on there.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

GiftofGABA said:


> I prefer provigil over the other more euphoric stims because I have a habit of abusing those kinds of goodies. To me they are just pure brain candy. The Lyrica idea is just by way of general experimentation. The sides on Nardil so far have been all over the place and it's not totally clear that a stimulant is what's needed in my situation, since even heavy amounts of caffeine haven't really helped much.
> 
> I wouldn't mind something anxiolytic to cut through some of the more physical quasi-anxiety sensations that I seem to get. Shaky hands. Unsteadiness on my feet. I like to know what stuff does for me on a PRN basis, even if on paper it seems apparently opposite to what I might imagine. I'm curious to know what its inhibition of norepinephrine would do anyway (and also its substance P inhibiting effect). All in all, a lot going on there.


gotcha re: the modafinil.

and there certainly is a whole lot going on psychopharmacologically speaking with pregabalin. this can be both a blessing a curse at the same time depending on perspective.


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## puppy (Jun 27, 2012)

GiftofGABA said:


> I prefer provigil over the other more euphoric stims because I have a habit of abusing those kinds of goodies. To me they are just pure brain candy. The Lyrica idea is just by way of general experimentation. The sides on Nardil so far have been all over the place and it's not totally clear that a stimulant is what's needed in my situation, since even heavy amounts of caffeine haven't really helped much.
> 
> I wouldn't mind something anxiolytic to cut through some of the more physical quasi-anxiety sensations that I seem to get. Shaky hands. Unsteadiness on my feet. I like to know what stuff does for me on a PRN basis, even if on paper it seems apparently opposite to what I might imagine. I'm curious to know what its inhibition of norepinephrine would do anyway (and also its substance P inhibiting effect). All in all, a lot going on there.


The shakes and unsteadiness are not an anxiety thing and more of a physical side effect. Doubt an anxiolytic will get rid of it. I'd just stick it out on the Nardil, it really just gets better and better as you train your autonomic nervous system to have healthier responses. If you read my threads here and on psycho babble (my username is enndub) you can see where I was desperately looking for augmentation strategies but it turns out that nardil plus therapy was plenty enough to cure me. Personally I'd just give it time before adding more drugs... At five months I was satisfied with my progress and realized that more practice is all I need not more drugs. I'm a regular person now and it feels great, don't try to completely rid yourself of uncomfortable feelings because some are natural and necessary. You'll learn to appreciate them!


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Hey giftofgaba, 

I'm really glad that phenelzine has had this significantly positive effect on you. I've been taking nardil for about 2 weeks and am currently at 75 mg.

I had a somewhat abstract question about your current situation and mindset, which might be hard to articulate, but I'll give it my best shot. Do you feel that people respond generally favorably to your new disposition, personality, and generally your conversations with them? Basically, are you now a very likeable person? Or is it more like Nardil has made you realize that other people's opinions of you are in fact trivial, and your personality has not really changd, or is not much more likeable. Personally, I'm hoping for the former, as I've always wanted to know what it was like to have an easygoing, witty personality that I admire in so many people. But I realize that it is unrealistic to desire this after living for so many years without general acceptance, and I'd also be content with a new general outlook.

Thank you,
brownjesus4566


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## MrKappa (Mar 18, 2013)

I didn't see any mention, so, yeah, it looks like you need to supplement with vitamins on this stuff, specifically B6.

Looks like it can catch up to you after a few decades use. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100524/msgs/948955.html

I suppose it has something to do with improper vitamin supplementation?



allornothing said:


> when you go a month without posting or even logging in on this forum, then it will be safe to assume nardil has actually worked for you, instead of you just hyping yourself up, making it only seem to have helped you.
> 
> i tend to believe that if it really was that helpful of a drug, doctors would still be prescribing it, regardless of its side effects. doctors prescribe loads of crap and could care less about the side effects it may cause you. takes less than 5 minutes of browsing this entire forum for that to become apparent.
> 
> nice effort though


I got the same kind of skepticism. Especially with Lithium. FDA banned it back in the 60s/70s and was in Seven Up. Ancients noticed natural springs had healing properties, and they had high content lithium. Now they've recently proved it grows brain grey matter. Like the only thing they recommend to treat childhood bipolar.

The Nardil stuff seems to be some sort of Rocket Fuel, mentioned in that link I posted, but yeah... who knows? maybe with the right diet it might not shut down the nervous system long term?

No... you said it, I missed it...



GiftofGABA said:


> The cramps and lactic acid issue are partially but not completely remedied with small doses (10mg) of vitamin B6 and potassium via bananas and coconut water.


Or maybe that's the old formula, only? No matter my apologies...



gilmourr said:


> - Had multiple B6 tests done and Nardil doesn't actually seem to lower it by anything, just avoid going to mega doses since that can interfere with the drug.


*How do you know this Gilmour? Do you mean you can't feel the intensity of the effect anymore? Maybe you are chasing a high, and the vitamin supplementation reduces the "high", when in fact it is supplementing and boosting the overal therapuetic effect of the drug? I am asking because I am learning.*


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I read most of your post Nardil messages on psychobabble and it looks like you were trying similar augmentation strategies to me. I think your idea of allowing a certain physical anxiety to persist is insightful as it allows one to use CBT methods to confront things more. I'd forgotten your description of your success with the combination of Nardil and CBT, but your recommendations back then did influence my decision to exercise my own form of CBT or graded exposure, whatever you want to call it, by shifting my attentional focus outwardly and trying to drop my safety mechanisms during exposure. I don't seek out exposure but I try not to avoid it and I try to notice what my usual mechanisms are and counteract them with this procedure. Afterwards, I don't evaluate "how it went", I just carry on with my day.

So yeah, I think I will take your advice and just soldier on and take this opportunity to exercise more mind control.



puppy said:


> The shakes and unsteadiness are not an anxiety thing and more of a physical side effect. Doubt an anxiolytic will get rid of it. I'd just stick it out on the Nardil, it really just gets better and better as you train your autonomic nervous system to have healthier responses. If you read my threads here and on psycho babble (my username is enndub) you can see where I was desperately looking for augmentation strategies but it turns out that nardil plus therapy was plenty enough to cure me. Personally I'd just give it time before adding more drugs... At five months I was satisfied with my progress and realized that more practice is all I need not more drugs. I'm a regular person now and it feels great, don't try to completely rid yourself of uncomfortable feelings because some are natural and necessary. You'll learn to appreciate them!


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Regarding your question, I'd say it's more of the former with a touch of the latter thrown in. I do feel genuinely more competent socially and able to handle the hitherto onerous social load that conversation put on me. I can do this gracefully and even eloquently at times, but more than anything, I care less about coming across in this fashion and more about creating a positive vibe with the other person. I do that with more sustained eye contact, situationally appropriate smiling and careful listening skills.
My personality certain _has_ changed for the better and I think that people like me more for what I give _them_ rather than an awkward attempt to come off as smart, which was my previous way of trying to increase social value. Having said that, there is also less concern about criticism and negative evaluation so I can shrug off a negative experience without undue concern, so I think it's the best of both worlds.

I'm not trying to overhype Nardil because these statements pertain more to my better days but I do experience this stuff even on the low days to a certain extent where sometimes the side-effects interfere with some of my ability to come across as completely normal thereby generating a certain anxiety. My mood also fluctuates and people can read this. They are very perceptive. This is a process and I'm certainly not there, but I hold a strong hope that this is the right direction. The will is certainly there.



brownjesus4566 said:


> Hey giftofgaba,
> 
> I'm really glad that phenelzine has had this significantly positive effect on you. I've been taking nardil for about 2 weeks and am currently at 75 mg.
> 
> ...


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

After reading a lot on psychobabble today I might try to enhance intestinal absorption. It is possible that a larger proportion of the newer formulation is getting absorbed higher up in the digestive tract leading to different absorption characteristics ultimately generating overall strength and subjective experience differences. Although I expect the total effect is still somewhat negligible.

Some suggestions were to add all excipients from the pre-2003 formulation (a last resort for me; this seems a bit burdensome) or put the pills in enteric capsules to allow digestion further down the disgestive tract. I may try this. Other ways suggested to just enhance overall absorption were to consume it with a small amount of honey (sucrose was in the original formulation) and/or alcohol. I see a small chance that the manufacturer wanted to attenuate the effect of Nardil due to low sales. Lower efficacy means a higher dose and sales required. I take all this with a grain of salt however, though I do respect those over there at psychobabble for their high attention to detail.



swim said:


> your previous avatar showed the current pfizer's nardil pill, yet many say that the old formula was better.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Regarding your question, I'd say it's more of the former with a touch of the latter thrown in. I do feel genuinely more competent socially and able to handle the hitherto onerous social load that conversation put on me. I can do this gracefully and even eloquently at times, but more than anything, I care less about coming across in this fashion and more about creating a positive vibe with the other person. I do that with more sustained eye contact, situationally appropriate smiling and careful listening skills.
> My personality certain _has_ changed for the better and I think that people like me more for what I give _them_ rather than an awkward attempt to come off as smart, which was my previous way of trying to increase social value. Having said that, there is also less concern about criticism and negative evaluation so I can shrug off a negative experience without undue concern, so I think it's the best of both worlds.
> 
> I'm not trying to overhype Nardil because these statements pertain more to my better days but I do experience this stuff even on the low days to a certain extent where sometimes the side-effects interfere with some of my ability to come across as completely normal thereby generating a certain anxiety. My mood also fluctuates and people can read this. They are very perceptive. This is a process and I'm certainly not there, but I hold a strong hope that this is the right direction. The will is certainly there.


That sounds intriguing, and its not something I've heard from other success stories on Nardil. No one really goes into the specifics of their changed personality and interactions with reduced social anxiety and depression. Thanks for analyzing your own experiences logically and objectively! Really informative, and above all fascinating!

I realize that you are not feeling the full positive effects of the medication, due to side effects and maybe decreased efficacy of Pfizer's version. But, I think it's safe to say that you have gotten to the point where sufficient MAO inhibition has been achieved, and you have, for lack of a better term, experienced Nardil "kick in". Of course, the augmentation strategies, such as adding honey or alcohol, can only benefit you, so I'm looking forward to seeing how you progress with these processes.

Sorry for the more abstract questions, but I feel I have gotten most of the quantitative information from various threads, and not as much information about the feeling of reduction in social anxiety itself. So, do you feel as if your social skills and conversational skills have gotten better, as the medication has kicked in? And to what extent? I was wondering if you could elaborate on this, I realize you have already, but this really interests me and is something I'm looking forward to potentially happening when the medication kicks in. Also, it's fascinating that these skills can be improved by medication itself, adding more evidence to social anxiety being most prominently an imbalance of brain chemistry. Any more information you have on this, or any thoughts you have pertaining to this, would be greatly appreciated!


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

brownjesus4566 said:


> That sounds intriguing, and its not something I've heard from other success stories on Nardil. No one really goes into the specifics of their changed personality and interactions with reduced social anxiety and depression. Thanks for analyzing your own experiences logically and objectively! Really informative, and above all fascinating!
> 
> I realize that you are not feeling the full positive effects of the medication, due to side effects and maybe decreased efficacy of Pfizer's version. But, I think it's safe to say that you have gotten to the point where sufficient MAO inhibition has been achieved, and you have, for lack of a better term, experienced Nardil "kick in". Of course, the augmentation strategies, such as adding honey or alcohol, can only benefit you, so I'm looking forward to seeing how you progress with these processes.
> 
> Sorry for the more abstract questions, but I feel I have gotten most of the quantitative information from various threads, and not as much information about the feeling of reduction in social anxiety itself. So, do you feel as if your social skills and conversational skills have gotten better, as the medication has kicked in? And to what extent? I was wondering if you could elaborate on this, I realize you have already, but this really interests me and is something I'm looking forward to potentially happening when the medication kicks in. Also, it's fascinating that these skills can be improved by medication itself, adding more evidence to social anxiety being most prominently an imbalance of brain chemistry. Any more information you have on this, or any thoughts you have pertaining to this, would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks for the insightful post man. I do appreciate the subtler observations on Nardil as well. It's interesting that you made the connection between an improvement in social skills due to Nardil as indicative of a neurological thing rather than a psychological thing. I believe this to be mostly true. The fact that my social skills have improved significantly suggests that I already had them (no doubt due to being exposed to the same lifelong societal inputs as "normal" people) but that they were simply being repressed by chemical infelicities. I still have some anxiety, in fact a fair bit of it, but I seem to be able to squelch it more easily--I can tell my mind to ignore those stimuli and they stay suppressed much longer, allowing me to act contrary to those initial sensations. Whereas before I had an immediate disbelief of the potential for the anxiety to recede, and hence, no way to start developing self-belief by putting myself in that "dangerous" social context. I also have a _much_ greater tolerance to criticism which is part of the whole effect.

There is genuine improvement. Where before I was a 3/10, I'd say now I'm a 7.5/10. My goal is a 9/10. There are many other sides to the improvement story such as much better body language (I'm getting checked out ALL the time by girls even though I've looked a lot better--I'm talking sustained eye contact until I walk past them or ignore them completely). I look more confident. Talking cadence is different, more controlled and louder when speaking in class. But it does involve a certain effort still. I am trying to use a CBTish approach to augment the Nardil as suggested by puppy. I feel at this moment that full MAO inhibition is not achieved or else I may on the wrong dose (too high _or_ too low) for ideal effect. However, I will stay at this level for another 6-7 weeks to settle on that conclusion.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Met a cute bartender just now who seemed eager to talk to me. I didn't really need to encourage her either which was the strange thing. I just acted inquisitive and friendy with good eye contact. Found out her name, where she's from originally, stuff she likes, stuff about her work, etc. Could have gotten her number (but I already have a lady). Talked for a good five minutes. 

This Nardil is kind of miraculous. I have NEVER had this much female attention. I just walk straight with confident gait, shoulders back, in the middle of the sidewalk and don't really look around a lot. I converse in an interested and friendly manner and don't talk about myself too much. In short, I don't come across as needy. These are all good strategies for anyone on or off a med, but it's much easier to pull off now. I feel like I could walk into a bar and have a girl on my lap in 10 minutes.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Thanks for the insightful post man. I do appreciate the subtler observations on Nardil as well. It's interesting that you made the connection between an improvement in social skills due to Nardil as indicative of a neurological thing rather than a psychological thing. I believe this to be mostly true. The fact that my social skills have improved significantly suggests that I already had them (no doubt due to being exposed to the same lifelong societal inputs as "normal" people) but that they were simply being repressed by chemical infelicities. I still have some anxiety, in fact a fair bit of it, but I seem to be able to squelch it more easily--I can tell my mind to ignore those stimuli and they stay suppressed much longer, allowing me to act contrary to those initial sensations. Whereas before I had an immediate disbelieve of the potential for the anxiety to recede, and hence, no way to start developing self-belief by putting myself in that "dangerous" social context. I also have a _much_ greater tolerance to criticism which is part of the whole effect.
> 
> There is genuine improvement. Where before I was a 3/10, I'd say now I'm a 7.5/10. My goal is a 9/10. There are many other sides to the improvement story such as much better body language (I'm getting checked out ALL the time by girls even though I've looked a lot better--I'm talking sustained eye contact until I walk past them or ignore them completely). I look more confident. Talking cadence is different, more controlled and louder when speaking in class. But it does involve a certain effort still. I am trying to use a CBTish approach to augment the Nardil as suggested by puppy. I feel at this moment that full MAO inhibition is not achieved or else I may on the wrong dose (too high _or_ too low) for ideal effect. However, I will stay at this level for another 6-7 weeks to settle on that conclusion.


I think you are right on all counts, including not having reached full MAO inhibition yet. I'm sure a good deal of improvement is yet to come.
I find your narratives of your positive social experiences on Nardil to be utterly fascinating and encouraging, and I'm getting the sense that your personality is undergoing pretty significant changes, that too improvements. I think that you chatting up that girl and her being that interested in you is a result of your new disposition and demeanor, as well as your improved social skills. I myself can relate to being impressed and drawn to self assured, confident, yet down to earth and friendly people in my life, and it is amazing to me that Nardil is capable of making these changes in people's lives, because these traits are usually considered ingrained in you, a part of you, and not susceptible to change.

I'm hoping to experience similar things with Nardil, and what i'm really hoping for is an augmentation to my personality and social encounters that will make it less of a struggle to form friendships and become part of a robust social circle. Since starting college I have yet to experience this, though in high school I was not devoid of social encounters due to growing up in the area and knowing people from childhood, but it is frustrating to watch people make bonds and grow closer while I can't really make this happen. In addition, I wanted to become more witty and get better at conversing, I profoundly admire this trait in people, and used to think it was just a natural thing for people, until I figured out that my social anxiety and lack of confidence might be the only thing hopding me back from embracing my own sense of humor and gregariousness. I know you touched on your own experiences developing your own brand of wit and humor, but I was hoping to gain more insight into how Nardil helped you with this, and maybe some examples of witty, interesting conversations with people, somewhat for my own reassurance 

In addition, it seems as though the benefits of Nardil came to you gradually, whereas most personal accounts (I've read pretty much all of them on the internet hehe) described it as a somewhat instantaneous thing. Did you see improvement drastically happen at one point, and continue on from there, or was it truly gradual?

Thanks for answering all my questions so far, but new ones just spring to mind haha hope I'm not imposing too much!


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Also, do you spread out your dosage or take it once a day, and how has this affected your results? What would you recommend? Thank you!


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I'd say it was quite gradual yes. None of the so-called "light switch effect" so don't be put off if it comes gradually for you too. In terms of wittiness, well, I don't think my intelligence has genuinely increased sadly. But what Nardil permits is an increase of your own natural abilities in that anxiety no longer acts as a bottleneck in exhibiting them. One puny example: today I purchased a huge pack of toilet paper as well as a liter of chocolate milk. The cashier asked me if I "wanted a bag for that". I said "yes, please, if only to conceal the fact that I've purchased an obscene amount of chocolate milk". Just little wisecracks like that. No Wildesque quippiness; my brain just isn't built like that. 

This may be a skill you can learn to a certain extent, if you study it enough or build up a big enough internal library of examples. But it does seem to rely on a certain form of fluid intelligence and lateral thinking.


I have taken all of the Nardil in the morning, initially wanting to enjoy its rush, but after hitting 75mg, the rush entered hypertensive crisis territory and I needed to take the pills on a full stomach. This seemed to affect its pharmacokinetics leading to less anxiolysis and subjective perception of Nardil kicking in. Today was the first day I spread the dose between morning and afternoon and I really like the effect of this because the afternoon GABAergic lull gets mitigated by the replenished Nardil. Of course, the cost of that is a lesser morning effect, but I figure now I can get around the needing a meal thing and enjoy the rushes I got before.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

Are you taking 90mg still or are you on 75mg?



GiftofGABA said:


> I'd say it was quite gradual yes. None of the so-called "light switch effect" so don't be put off if it comes gradually for you too. In terms of wittiness, well, I don't think my intelligence has genuinely increased sadly. But what Nardil permits is an increase of your own natural abilities in that anxiety no longer acts as a bottleneck in exhibiting them. One puny example: today I purchased a huge pack of toilet paper as well as a liter of chocolate milk. The cashier asked me if I "wanted a bag for that". I said "yes, please, if only to conceal the fact that I've purchased an obscene amount of chocolate milk". Just little wisecracks like that. No Wildesque quippiness; my brain just isn't built like that.
> 
> This may be a skill you can learn to a certain extent, if you study it enough or build up a big enough internal library of examples. But it does seem to rely on a certain form of fluid intelligence and lateral thinking.
> 
> I have taken all of the Nardil in the morning, initially wanting to enjoy its rush, but after hitting 75mg, the rush entered hypertensive crisis territory and I needed to take the pills on a full stomach. This seemed to affect its pharmacokinetics leading to less anxiolysis and subjective perception of Nardil kicking in. Today was the first day I spread the dose between morning and afternoon and I really like the effect of this because the afternoon GABAergic lull gets mitigated by the replenished Nardil. Of course, the cost of that is a lesser morning effect, but I figure now I can get around the needing a meal thing and enjoy the rushes I enjoyed before.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

90mg. So 45mgX2 on an empty stomach tomorrow. Today I had a light bite before each dose.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> I'd say it was quite gradual yes. None of the so-called "light switch effect" so don't be put off if it comes gradually for you too. In terms of wittiness, well, I don't think my intelligence has genuinely increased sadly. But what Nardil permits is an increase of your own natural abilities in that anxiety no longer acts as a bottleneck in exhibiting them. One puny example: today I purchased a huge pack of toilet paper as well as a liter of chocolate milk. The cashier asked me if I "wanted a bag for that". I said "yes, please, if only to conceal the fact that I've purchased an obscene amount of chocolate milk". Just little wisecracks like that. No Wildesque quippiness; my brain just isn't built like that.
> 
> This may be a skill you can learn to a certain extent, if you study it enough or build up a big enough internal library of examples. But it does seem to rely on a certain form of fluid intelligence and lateral thinking.
> 
> I have taken all of the Nardil in the morning, initially wanting to enjoy its rush, but after hitting 75mg, the rush entered hypertensive crisis territory and I needed to take the pills on a full stomach. This seemed to affect its pharmacokinetics leading to less anxiolysis and subjective perception of Nardil kicking in. Today was the first day I spread the dose between morning and afternoon and I really like the effect of this because the afternoon GABAergic lull gets mitigated by the replenished Nardil. Of course, the cost of that is a lesser morning effect, but I figure now I can get around the needing a meal thing and enjoy the rushes I enjoyed before.


Yeah, by wit I was pretty much referring to making those kind of innocent, trivial wisecracks, nothing really more incisive, but I believe that doing this repeatedly can really establish a rapport during conversation. I find it hard to do right now, probably because of SA. If the reference makes any sense, I would most like to emulate the character Jim Halpert from the Office in terms of personaity and humor. In any event, I believe that both anecdotes that you told are indicative of the power of Nardil, as well as the remarkable improvement you've made and the great feeling you get. I'm excited to hear about the further progress that I am sure you will make!

I think your dosing strategy is sound; I have heard that splitting the dosage could possibly be less effective, but also produce less side effects. The meal part I had not heard of, great to hear it is working for you. I think in general the dosage strategies one uses to take Nardil should not really vary the overall therapeutix effects of the drug.too much.

There is one aspect of Phenelzine which I am still confused by, its gabaergic effects. I was wondering if anyone had any information as to when Nardil's general increase of GABA occurs: immediately when Nardil treatmet is started, or later, when the drug proves efficacious for more people? Based on my current understanding of Nardil, it seems as though it should affect GABA from the first dose, which should have a noticeable effect on SA, but this is not the case for most so there is probably something I don't know going on with its pharmacology. Also, to what extent does this Gaba effect occur, is it even comparable to a therapeutic dose of a benzo? I realize these questions may be difficult to answer accurately and certainly, which is probably why I haven't found answers to them in my perusing of previous Nardil discussions, but if anyone of you fellow Nardil users has any insight into this, I'd love to hear it.

Sorry if my posts are redundant or verbose, I'm still in winter break from college right now and don't really have much going on. When school starts, I'll probably post more succintly, and I think being more busy will help with depression as well.


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## CD700 (Apr 22, 2010)

Do you guys think you had personalities before Nardil ? 
Or did Nardil gift you one ?


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

brownjesus4566 said:


> There is one aspect of Phenelzine which I am still confused by, its gabaergic effects. I was wondering if anyone had any information as to when Nardil's general increase of GABA occurs: immediately when Nardil treatmet is started, or later, when the drug proves efficacious for more people? Based on my current understanding of Nardil, it seems as though it should affect GABA from the first dose, which should have a noticeable effect on SA, but this is not the case for most so there is probably something I don't know going on with its pharmacology. Also, to what extent does this Gaba effect occur, is it even comparable to a therapeutic dose of a benzo? I realize these questions may be difficult to answer accurately and certainly, which is probably why I haven't found answers to them in my perusing of previous Nardil discussions, but if anyone of you fellow Nardil users has any insight into this, I'd love to hear it.


I'm not a Nardil user, but the following article may shed some light (free full text). If you can decipher it.

Insights into the Mechanisms of Action of the MAO Inhibitors Phenelzine and Tranylcypromine: A Review
Glen B. Baker, Ph.D., Ronald T. Coutts, Ph.D., D.Sc., Kevin F. McKenna, M.D., and Rhonda L. Sherry-McKenna, B.Sc.
Neurochemical Research Unit, Department of Psychiatry and Faculty of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta
Submitted: July 10, 1992; Accepted: October 7, 1992

I don't know if it will answer your specific questions, but it is interesting to see all the many ways in which these "dirty drugs" could be working.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I couldn't even find out if PEH (the metabolite of Phenelzine responsibile for GABA-T inhibition) binds to GABA-T covalently or not (i.e irreversible vs. reversible).

But I did find out something really interesting but unrelated:

http://ejournals.library.ualberta.ca/index.php/JPPS/article/view/1753

"_Pretreatment of rats with the MAO inhibitor tranylcypromine prevented the increase in brain GABA and ALA levels with PLZ [Phenelzine]._"

So, no Nardil augmentation with Parnate for me.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> I couldn't even find out if PEH (the metabolite of Phenelzine responsibile for GABA-T inhibition) binds to GABA-T covalently or not (i.e irreversible vs. reversible).
> 
> But I did find out something really interesting but unrelated:
> 
> ...


Dont you want the GABA against anxiety... And it seems like Phenelzine works more on the GABA recopter then Parnate/Tranylcypromine


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## fineline (Oct 21, 2011)

how is your worry doing? if it were me, and i had successful results like you, i would be wondering when something bad would happen. like when it will stop working.

do you consider it to be a cure for social anxiety? how has your personality changed since you've noticed good results? besides the seemingly inflated ego.

would you recommend this drug to other SA sufferers? if so, how shall we go about obtaining this drug? how have you obtained your supply? this seems to be something that would be difficult to get a doctor/psychiatrist to prescribe this.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Caedmon said:


> I'm not a Nardil user, but the following article may shed some light (free full text). If you can decipher it.
> 
> Insights into the Mechanisms of Action of the MAO Inhibitors Phenelzine and Tranylcypromine: A Review
> Glen B. Baker, Ph.D., Ronald T. Coutts, Ph.D., D.Sc., Kevin F. McKenna, M.D., and Rhonda L. Sherry-McKenna, B.Sc.
> ...


Thanks Caedmon. Unfortunately I wasn't able to draw any cogent conclusions from the article, very possibly because of my own insufficient understanding of chemistry and pharmacology, nevertheless the conclusion of the article itself was that much is still to be understood about Nardil and Parnate's effects.

I did, however, come across something slightly worrisome, and was hoping you or anyone else could possibly shed some light on this, or correct me. On page 3, there is a chart comparing levels of GABA to various dosages of Phenelzine, measured in mg/kg. The lowest dose, 2.5mg/kg, shows 100% GABA levels; that dose is far higher than what is safe for Phenelzine, and yet it results in GABA levels the same as control? Or have I misunderstood this, is it saying there is a 100% increase in GABA from the control? I probably have botched this, could anyone reassure me?


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

brownjesus4566 said:


> I did, however, come across something slightly worrisome, and was hoping you or anyone else could possibly shed some light on this, or correct me. On page 3, there is a chart comparing levels of GABA to various dosages of Phenelzine, measured in mg/kg. The lowest dose, 2.5mg/kg, shows 100% GABA levels; that dose is far higher than what is safe for Phenelzine, and yet it results in GABA levels the same as control? Or have I misunderstood this, is it saying there is a 100% increase in GABA from the control? I probably have botched this, could anyone reassure me?


I understood that - at 2.5 mg/kg - there was a ~100% increase in measurable GABA levels after being given phenelzine, when compared to the control group (saline). In other words, the GABA levels doubled at that dosage.

For me, that corresponds to 225 mg per day of Nardil. You can really do all kinds of **** to rats I guess.

I wonder what the % GABA increase is in humans following a normal, therapeutic dose.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

watertouch said:


> Dont you want the GABA against anxiety... And it seems like Phenelzine works more on the GABA recopter then Parnate/Tranylcypromine


I think he's saying he won't combine the two, because of the interaction between them.

Nardil destroys the MAO enzyme and this results in a metabolite(?). The metabolite, in turn, affects GABA transaminase (so it increases GABA).

If you take another MAO inhibitor, then there is less MAO for Nardil to work on. Which means less of the metabolite. Which means less GABA increase. *Sad panda*


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Caedmon said:


> I understood that - at 2.5 mg/kg - there was a ~100% increase in measurable GABA levels after being given phenelzine, when compared to the control group (saline). In other words, the GABA levels doubled at that dosage.
> 
> For me, that corresponds to 225 mg per day of Nardil. You can really do all kinds of **** to rats I guess.
> 
> I wonder what the % GABA increase is in humans following a normal, therapeutic dose.


Thanks, yeah that seems right. According to the study they went to as high as 60 mg/kg on the rats, ridiculously high hahaha. And yeah I'm really curious to know what the GABA increase is at a therapeutic dose, guess there's no way to find out.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

*PART VI*

*Day 55* : (8 weeks)

So, things have improved since the last update by most measures. Side-effects have gotten better. My mood is about the same, meaning a good 8/10. Non-euphoric but calm and happy, motivated to do stuff all the time even despite energy ups and downs and little sleep. It seems having such a positive mood overcomes tiredness to a major extent. My lingering sides now are similar to my previous update BUT the major difference is now I don't get any apparent hypertension. This might be due to my new dosing regimen: I now split up my 90mg single dose into 2X45mg doses and I don't worry about what I eat or if I eat with it. Before, at a single 90mg morning dose, I was getting hypertensive states. Now with the 45mg dosing regimen that is entirely gone. The new dosing regimen also permits a greater smoothness in mood throughout the day, with no current observable downs. Quite frankly, I'm just really happy to be alive now and I'm looking forward to everything that life brings and I feel capable of handling pretty much anything socially.

My current most irksome sides are *hypotension* and *orthostatic hypotension* which still induces a recognizable fear at times which is almost silly because it always dissipates with the same pattern--it lasts 1-2 minutes, give or take, then my normal perception returns and I see how trivial all of that was. I get occasional anxiety here and there but I can control it by using my CBT techniques and by Nardil's power which seems to allow my conscious thoughts to exert a true force on irrational unwanted thoughts of an anxious nature. I haven't used benzos or Lyrica to exert this anxiety quelling: I just rely on Nardil and using conscious thought control. It doesn't seem too hard.

*Anorgasmia* is bad, really bad. I've tried and tried but I just can't do it. It wasn't like this on Paxil. I _need_ some improvement here. Zero orgasms in 6 weeks. I may use some of basuraeuropea's strategies if this doesn't improve soon. On the plus side, performance is greatly improved and libido is good.

Don't feel stoned any more, though some lack of muscular control still persists, and fine motor control varies, sometimes being quite poor (e.g. writing) due to shakiness. The lightheadedness from the hypotension causes unpleasant visual blurring and brightness for minutes at a time making it hard to negotiate crossing traffic lights and things.

My appreciation of music has basically returned but I seem aversive to certain melancholic and deeply emotion songs that I previously loved. However, I now appreciate other kinds of music (usually upbeat) that I never saw any value in before. My auditory perception is strange. Sounds, especially louder ones, have a strong vibratory, resonant effect. I can feel the vibrations in my eardrums as a linear addition to the normal sound input with a sort of loud reverberation effect. Hard to explain, but not unpleasant.

Sleeping is still utter ****. I lie in bed for 4-5 hours, waking up frequently. I haven't tried to fix this yet, because I function well even with this impairment.

I've noted this before but I'd like to emphasize it again: I'm no longer a bumbling retard. I move slower, think faster and act appropriately in almost all situations. I think this is due to an almost complete remission of anxious sensations permitting my net mental energy available in all other departments--social and otherwise--to be greatly amplified over my pre-Nardil state. The effect is that I come across as more capable and confident. And I feel that way. And it's real. I've got my **** together now. All my mini half-finished projects from before are getting completed in insanely small amounts of time. As a rule, I walk around and handle people instead of getting handled by them.

The most important thing to report is the smoothness that I now experience. My mood is smooth and my ability to handle social situations doesn't appear to vary. There's been a slight improvement in social performance. I'd say it's now at an 8/10 level. My girlfriend commented on it today and it was apparent that she appreciated it. I think she likes this new me. If improvements were to stop here with a cessation or amelioration of all major side-effects I would be a happy man. How long can it last? Hopefully forever, but I'd take several years. What a respite.

Final note:

Ashwin is/was a member here who hasn't been seen for a long time: 2+ years. It's safe to say he's still enjoying his Nardil. His experience, especially these paragraphs, mirrors my own experience:

_"For the first time I noticed a huge change in my personality. I was now not merely assertive like I would normally be on Klonopin even at 8mg. I was even tactfully aggressive with people; not foolishly arrogant. I could think much clearer. At work when it comes to talking a business deal.. well I'd hardly talk [pre-Nardil] and I'd give in to the more powerful opponent in an argument. Because that's me socially anxious and weak around people."

_
"_Well, the most amazing thing was - It was just not me. I couldn't have done something like that in my dreams. I've never shown my anger on anyone other than myself and my loved ones.. (you don't need social skills for that). When it comes to a confrontation I'm the kind of guy who always chose flight over fight.. This was like the first ever in my life I chose to fight till I proved myself right. I always knew its only the dominant and aggressive that survive and succeed in this world. I knew I had no place in this world for I was so timid and spineless as one can be. But now Its like I'm just watching some movie and I just get the job done with excellent people skills so effortlessly. Well, the last two days at work were the best days of my life ever. Even outside of work I was talking to people so effortlessly... male and female - like sales/counter boys/girls (trust me even that was so hard for me even on Klonopin). I noticed myself just talking to the guy behind me when I'm in a line.. its like I know when to be informal and talk and when to be formal and stop talking unnecessarily._"

Actually, most of his experience reads as eerily familiar_; _it's very odd (to me) and perhaps will serve as inspiration for some looking to confront their SA head on disregarding whatever perils Nardil _supposedly_ imposes. My current position on whether or not to try Nardil is that if your life sucks (you may have to do some proper introspection to know this for sure) and you've tried some other meds without much success (an SSRI, benzos, and maybe an atypical) then you should try Nardil. High probability of success (72%) + possible life-altering result = a risk worth taking. Are you really living anyway?

Read about most of Ashwin's Nardil trial here:

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...-nardil-for-soc-anx-testimony-part-ii-126908/

Oh, and here's his first post from about 9 months earlier:

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...g-except-nardil-phenelzine-sa-timidity-96741/

As you can see, he didn't really even know what SA was nine months before taking Nardil, and then miraculously, was cured and completely coherent on the matter, having perfectly clear insight into his previous unfortunate condition. This stuff just fixes your brain. And I really have no idea why nor do I really care that much why it does work (okay I do care that much from a psychopharmacological perspective, because that's just me :yay).


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

you just have a little chat with me because i've trialed all sorts of medicaments with purported sexual benefits. advice will be given, or at least brainstormed.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I love you.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

GiftofGABA said:


> I love you.


<3

i misread. you're on 90mg and not 45mg as i had written in the private message. i'll dig around in either case.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

You are making me want Nardil. I've been reading the Nardil threads. Really tempting.

My *only* concern - but a big concern (haha get it?) is weight gain. I have done the MAOI thing for years already - my guess is I would even already be tolerant to a lot of orthostatic hypotension. I am borderline obese and there are a host of other problems accompanying the weight, so it is medically and psychologically significant (not exactly worried about losing my lifting stats or blah blah like I did when I was 20). I desperately need to *lose* weight, not gain weight. Can I still lose weight? Nardil sounds too perfect otherwise. I mean I would just slide right over to Camp N very easily, probably not even do a wash out period (but I would do a cross taper).


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Why don't you lose the weight first and consider it an incentive that Nardil will be your reward? If you're that big, and it's not a metabolic thing then I'd say yes, you can still lose weight on Nardil. There's some confusion about Nardil's effects on metabolism and to be honest, I haven't looked into it because it hasn't been an issue. But naively I would assume that if there is a metabolic slowing from Nardil, then that manifests through increased appetite (so it is controllable). I'm not talking about something subtle here. The appetite increase works through taste (and hunger to a lesser extent). I find that everything, EVERYTHING, tastes ****ing incredible. Though I do seek out junk foods. I have a theory about that though and it's that Nardil induces a certain laziness, making easily available foods more appealing. I just haven't wanted to cook, so I just grab 3 cheeseburgers and a pack of junior mints.

I'm 5'10" and maybe 165 pounds, fairly muscular. I think I've put on 3 pounds of mainly fat. However, I'm a little on the slim side, and I'm aware that I can get rid of it if I need to, so I'm just kind of in enjoyment of food mode. Girlfriend doesn't mind anyway. I have a slightly high metabolism. So the question comes back to your metabolism. Is it normal? Because if it is then you're doing okay but nevertheless if you do want to maintain your weight or possibly even lose some, it will come down to _significant_ self-control. How good are you with that? Right now, I'm eating poorly but I set a hard limit on my calories because I want to be buff again. If your metabolism is already low then I'd say lose your 30-40 pounds, whatever, and then return to Nardil and try to maintain your weight by setting a strict caloric limit and being vigilant.

ps: what's going on with your current stack? I see you've got Parnate in there. Is that not doing the trick? Also, are you hypothyroid?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Ive found Modafinil helps alot against hunger perhaps an agumentation with that would help if it is a hunger issue. Or maybe upping the dose of T3,

One question though arent T3 a "nogo" while on Parnate or are you hypo?


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

What dose of modafinil do you augment with?



watertouch said:


> Ive found Modafinil helps alot against hunger perhaps an agumentation with that would help if it is a hunger issue. Or maybe upping the dose of T3,
> 
> One question though arent T3 a "nogo" while on Parnate or are you hypo?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

hworth said:


> What dose of modafinil do you augment with?


100mg morning and if needed another 100 for afternoon fatigue. But im on Parnate.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

If I were to experiment with some of the Modafinil I have, what do you think a reasonable starting dose would be?



watertouch said:


> 100mg morning and if needed another 100 for afternoon fatigue. But im on Parnate.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

hworth said:


> If I were to experiment with some of the Modafinil I have, what do you think a reasonable starting dose would be?


I started with 25mg, dont wanna get some hyertensioncrisis. But that didnt effect BP or mood, so tried 50 the day after, lifted my mood a bit BP was still fine, then 75 and then 100.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

But some get a BP spike when they take their Parnate dose and it goes in, So one should be careful or wait till the spike drops.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

*@GiftofGABA *Thanks for your response! For a few years I was on a dream team of Parnate, Wellbutrin, and Lamictal but my current pdoc does not want to combine Welly with an MAOI. It's a long story, trust me! So now taking T3 basically as an antidepressant augmentation since October.

I have horrible self control with my diet. For a long time only thing that made me feel good was sugar and I had zero motivation or energy to do something as ambitious-sounding as exercise. I am just getting back into exercise. I have a long road ahead.

I like the idea of waiting to lose weight first - but right now things are pretty bad for me. I'm finding the depression lifting from the thyroid, and possibly Latuda. However, the more my depression lifts, the more I realize how unmanaged my anxiety is. I can feel fine at home, and then go to work and feel like my insides are being boiled by the constant social anxiety. High dose Parnate (~100+ mg) makes it go away nicely, but with side effects. Basically I am pulsing on it for scarier things like meetings or, um, well the entire work day I am monitoring for when my next 'hit' will be. It works for 2-3 hours and then I'm left feeling dead when I get home. Its doing something stimulant-y and that's kind of scary. I think the Wellbutrin was keeping the dopamine all even-Steven and that's why it helped. Anyway - I am in the information-gathering stage right now. I have lots of ideas but I don't really know what I'll do next. And of course I still have to negotiate the doctor's side of things.

P.S. I already did 6 months of counseling with nothing to show for it except a lighter wallet.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

GiftofGABA said:


> ps: what's going on with your current stack? I see you've got Parnate in there. Is that not doing the trick? Also, are you hypothyroid?


wouldn't the latuda that he's taking diminish the beneficial effects of an maoi, e.g. parnate, via its antagonistic effects on a profuse number of neurotransmitter systems?


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

watertouch said:


> Ive found Modafinil helps alot against hunger perhaps an agumentation with that would help if it is a hunger issue. Or maybe upping the dose of T3,
> 
> One question though arent T3 a "nogo" while on Parnate or are you hypo?


As far as I know T3 is okay. Hope so! I am not hypothyroid but am indeed taking it for depression/fatigue. Take a look at Dr. Peter Brigham's webpage for a brief overview of thyroid augmentation in people with normal thyroid function.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

basuraeuropea said:


> wouldn't the latuda that he's taking diminish the beneficial effects of an maoi, e.g. parnate, via their antagonistic effects on a profuse number of neurotransmitter systems?


That would suck - I hope not. Wouldn't think so though. It's basically an antidepressant with some unfortunate D2 antagonism thrown in there. The 5HT2A antagonism should cancel it out, a little, but there is still risk of akathisia and increased prolactin to watch for.

I wouldn't be surprised if the pharma company applies for FDA approval for unipolar depression or for ADHD sometime in the next several years.

P.S. Sorry if this is taking over the thread, I'll move any further of my comments here.


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## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Caedmon said:


> That would suck - I hope not. Wouldn't think so though. It's basically an antidepressant with some unfortunate D2 antagonism thrown in there. The 5HT2A antagonism should cancel it out, a little, but there is still risk of akathisia and increased prolactin to watch for.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if the pharma company applies for FDA approval for unipolar depression or for ADHD sometime in the next several years.
> 
> P.S. Sorry if this is taking over the thread, I'll move any further of my comments here.


Definitely wouldn't help taking Latuda with Nardil, but it would still work decently I'd suppose. The D2 antagonism is definitely going to interfere with what Nardil does to dopamine. As for the alpha 1 antagonism... it isn't as strong as alpha 2 antagonism so I don't think it'd affect the noradrenergic effect of Nardil too greatly and you'd still be getting a strong serotonin/GABA-T inhibition effect.

I never really liked the profile of Latuda, it always looked like a combination of buspar and risperidone to me.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Caedmon said:


> As far as I know T3 is okay. Hope so! I am not hypothyroid but am indeed taking it for depression/fatigue. Take a look at Dr. Peter Brigham's webpage for a brief overview of thyroid augmentation in people with normal thyroid function.


No need i hade some before about 60mcg day, felt better on it, didnt get any sideeffects... But then i wasnt on an MAOI, but the MAOI doesnt quite do it for me, have added L-methylfolat/5-MTHF it is supposed to work somehwat as T3 agumentation...


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> *PART VI*
> 
> *Day 55* : (8 weeks)
> 
> ...


Holy crap...that sounds marvelous. Seems like you've experienced benefits eve greater than most success stories. All I can say is, I'm so happy for you, and this makes me so optimistic to see what will happen when it kicks in for me.

Speaking of Ashwin, I'm glad you mentioned him, because I treat his threads, specifically the "Nardil Rocks PArt 2", as a sort of Bible, and a summation of what I want to get from Nardil. Frankly, I read that thread, at least his posts, at least once a day. He seems so in control of his social situations, and in addition he seems to be so ambitious on Nardil. I'd really like to contact him, but he's been gone from the forum for about 2 years now, and I hope he's still experiencing the benefits.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

Do you experience any tolerance to Modafinil's effects after a while of daily usage? What brand do you use..? And does it help your hypotension?



watertouch said:


> I started with 25mg, dont wanna get some hyertensioncrisis. But that didnt effect BP or mood, so tried 50 the day after, lifted my mood a bit BP was still fine, then 75 and then 100.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Latuda is a strong antagonist at only 4 receptors: alpha-2A, D2, 5HT-2A, and 5HT-7. The alpha-2A antagonism is a little confusing to me but the receptors are located both pre and post-synaptically but most of the the receptors are presynaptic and function to inhibit NE. Hence an antagonist there might plausibly amplify the NE effect. D2 antagonism I suppose is unwanted. 5HT receptor activity: agonism there might induce the dreaded serotonin syndrome. Is 5HT-2A antagonism unwanted though in this context? I don't really know. And who the hell knows about 5HT-7. All in all I'm not sure if this is anything to worry about. I just don't know enough though I guess. But remember, this isn't Nardil we're talking about, so we don't have to worry about GABA-T interference. Parnate is just a strong MAOI with an Amphetamine metabolite.



basuraeuropea said:


> wouldn't the latuda that he's taking diminish the beneficial effects of an maoi, e.g. parnate, via its antagonistic effects on a profuse number of neurotransmitter systems?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

hworth said:


> Do you experience any tolerance to Modafinil's effects after a while of daily usage? What brand do you use..? And does it help your hypotension?


Well you have a "honeymoon" face for a couple of days. But after that i did find no need to raise the dose, sometimes did if it was som good movie late on tv 
I think it is the brand Organon Modiodal. But i see now on my chart it says "Importer ORIFARM" they Repack stuff all the time in EU to get the price down, well it still expensive.

Cant really tell on the Hypo, i used to keep a chart but its somewhere in my messy room. But some 86/62 sometimes feels a bit low and no wounder fatiuge feelings. So i hope it raises BP, well to healthy levels.

But me recipt experied, forgott to pick it out (you only pay 350$ for all youre medicin a year in Sweden) so a "loss" of 1400$

And to top in all i only have 2pills left and my "former" Pdoc is no longer allowed to treat patients, and i dont have i new one. Guess i can phone the reception and say "i need this,that, and that" and then they grab some dr and says a patient needs medicine...


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Hey all,

I noticed a potential trend in people's experiences with Nardil: people who increased their dose up to 60-90 over a long period, perhaps over a month or longer, tended to have great success with reduction of social anxiety; whereas people impatient to get up to a high dose, doing this in a few weeks, posted outcomes such as "only works for depression" or "didn't work at all". I might be completely off here, but I think it's a possibility. This is worrisome to me because I have increased my dose to 75 mg in 2 weeks, because side effects permitted it. I have been taking Nardil for 3 weeks, and have been at 75 mg for 1 week.

My question is, do you guys think this is a possibility, or does it have any scientific merit, or have you noticed this trend as well? Or this is probably a coincidence, or perhaps the correlation doesn't even exist? Any input would be appreciated, I am pretty nervous that I ruined Nardil for myself by being too impatient.

Thank you so much, and sorry for being somewhat paranoid


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Some people have started on a high dose and gotten a good effect. Can you point us to this pattern (2 or 3 links) that you seem to have noticed? Specifically I'd like to see some failed trials with starting at 75mg. Didn't Ashwin himself *start* at 75mg?

Ashwin <--- READ

Notice how much more confident he seems even in text form? No more excessive smilies, etc. His description matches my current experience fairly closely. He may be getting a smidge more pronounced effect, but qualitatively I relate to what he's saying on the dot. It's very peculiar. I'd like to find out why our experiences are so parallel some day after I achieve my maximum effect.

ps: I tried contacting Ashwin a long time ago, asking him for a forum update but so far there's been no response.

pps: not super sure he actually started at 75mg, nevertheless, can you find me some counterexamples?


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Some people have started on a high dose and gotten a good effect. Can you point us to this pattern (2 or 3 links) that you seem to have noticed? Specifically I'd like to see some failed trials with starting at 75mg. Didn't Ashwin himself *start* at 75mg?
> 
> Ashwin <--- READ
> 
> ...


Ashwin took 1.5 months to get up to 75 mg, it's in his Nardil Rocks Part 1 thread. Damn, his results were striking though, his whole personality changed for the better, and he had such high ambitions, if you are experiencing results that parallel his, I have no doubt that Nardil will completely change your life, and perhaps allow you to fulfill some of your highest aspirations. I wish he was still around to give updates--he's probably out in the real world living it up, or making something out of himself. Nevertheless, I hope that you stick around and give us updates when this happens to you as well! :boogie

I will give you examples of the faster dosage increase causing reduced efficacy, once J find the time, but I believe thrre wrre only two or three examples of this, and thus I'm sure it's nothing to worry about. Most people talked about sides being too severe after increasing dose too quickly, and since that's not a problem for me, I think Nardil's efficacy will not be lost on me. I might experience an influx of severe side effects later though that cause me to lower the dose, if othdr people's accounts are any indication.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I know there are a lot of apparent variables and dosing seems to be one of them. So I admire your effort in seeking out the best one. Let us know what you come up with. This is a team effort. My current perspective though is that you will do okay having started on the high dose. Just give it a chance and hang in there. The principle reason for starting at a low dose is to mitigate side effects by allowing adaptation periods at each level. So you may get harsher sides but also perhaps a more powerful kick-in.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> I know there are a lot of apparent variables and dosing seems to be one of them. So I admire your effort in seeking out the best one. Let us know what you come up with. This is a team effort. My current perspective though is that you will do okay having started on the high dose. Just give it a chance and hang in there. The principle reason for starting at a low dose is to mitigate side effects by allowing adaptation periods at each level. So you may get harsher sides but also perhaps a more powerful kick-in.


Hey, thanks! Made me feel a lot better, for some reason I was starting to feel excessively worried and paranoid, much like that peculiar Jawi guy :b no offense to him but he seems a little high strung haha. I needed that reassurance, thanks for the encouraging words. I just have really high hopes for this medication, and I believe Nardil could be a turning point in my life, so I just want to be absolutely sure I am not screwing myself. I have a few examples of fast increases in dose causing decreased efficacy, like Formerly artie and reflecting, but I think I'll be fine.

Just in case there actually is something to worry about, here are links to their threads that caught my attention. Perhaps, you can use those excellent people skills of Nardil to reassure me even further? :yes

...Formerly Artie started on 60 mg, and didn't experience great changes for social anxiety. He also had to keep increasing his dose to mIntain the effects, and eventually tapered off - http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/how-long-does-nardil-take-to-work-47270/

Reflecting took 10 days to get to 75 mg, and after 5 weeks at 75 mg and 5 weeks at 90 mg, he didn't experience a single positivr change - http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/just-another-nardil-diary-148112/


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Good research my friend. Artie's description is particularly salient. Remember, there are non-responders, probably around 20-30% of people just can't derive enough benefit from it to justify staying on it, so it's not a guaranteed thing. Reflecting's trial was probably not long enough! 5.5 weeks isn't enough to know for sure what your steady-state experience will be like. Everyone agrees on this. I notice he didn't get the hypotensive effects. From my experience (and many others) this is the hallmark side-effect of Nardil doing its thing, so watch out for that. In the end you will probably love the hypotension. In my experience, this equates with the Nardil "magic".

Finally, my ultimate opinion is that if you're a responder then you're a responder. Some people require a certain amount of tweaking, but it's just a matter of time for them if they're patient enough. Hworth has had his dose all over the place and now at 75mg looks to be getting the benefits. If you're really super worried you could drop down to 45mg, or even 60mg and sit there for a while. But even Pfizer recommends starting at 45mg and increasing fairly rapidly (15mg per week?). Maybe someone can dig up the exact recommended dosing scheme. So I think you being on 75mg now (for how long - several weeks right?) should be okay.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Completely agree with your points, and my worries have been assuaged. I have been at 75 mg for a only a week, so I'm not expecting positive results for a while. But I'm confident in Nardil, and my research. I will stay at 75 mg, no reason to drop.

Sides have been somnolence, a general stoned feeling like you experienced, dry mouth, and insomnia. The insomnia, however, is not detrimental, and I wake up refreshed; I actually enjoy lying in bed thinking about life, sometimes listening to music. Speaking of orthostatic hypotension, I experinced this for the first time today, and it was actually pleasurable, if this makes sense. I think my side effects generally align wih yours and others' experiences, so I think that's a good sign that the medication is doing it's work.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

Hey brownjesus, that's definitely a great sign that you've gotten orthostatic hypotension at this point! Looks like you and I have been on 75mg for pretty much the exact same amount of time (1 week) and so far my experience with side effects is 100% identical to yours. As of 1-2 days ago I've noticed the really strange 'stoned' feeling like you guys are mentioning and I've definitely got some dry mouth/drier skin going on too along with insomnia. I probably get 4 hours of sleep per night even if I take a Temazepam, and for whatever reason I always wake up at like 3am unable to fall back asleep until I've wasted 2hrs of lying in bed awake.. and although it doesn't bother me too much initially when I wake up, I've started getting that afternoon fatigue particularly bad around 12-1pm where it feels like I'm barely even conscious of what's going on around me and I could fall asleep at any moment hahah. Also, there's a general dis coordination to my physical moments (I keep bumping into things) and people are asking me "What?" when I'm speaking more than usual as if maybe I'm slurring my words a bit without realizing it. And I'm experiencing hypotension. Seems like I had a couple days' worth of giddiness & happy feelings when I upped dose but now I'm back to a normal state and feel a little disappointed that I've "crashed" so to speak.. although my general talkativeness is still much more than before and I hardly feel anxious except for the self-awareness of my occasional slurring & spacey-ness, my mood is kind of dog sh*t again and I still have somewhat bothersome depressing thoughts throughout the day (although I am just starting out a new semester of school which is obviously kind of a wet blanket on my mood).. general malaise and optimism has faded again, I know anxiety gets better on Nardil before mood and that seemed to be somewhat accurate on 60mg to an extent but I'm really getting somewhat impatient holding out for phenelzine's long-term antidepressant effects  if this is how I'm gonna have to feel til it truly 'kicks in' I'm gonna be tempted to experiment with Kratom for the short-term alleviation of this "what's the point" feeling since it'd probably be safe at low dosages and maybe help my hypotension even.. Coffee works to give me energy obviously but I also get this odd feeling of confusion from it which is weird. Boostingtir mentioned in one of his posts that Soy PS supplemented in the morning can help reduce cortisol and therefore prevent this coffee-induced confusion plus ease Nardil's effect on bad memory, should I maybe try this? Or could it have a negative effect on Nardil's efficacy

The frustrating part is not knowing whether it's the hypotension causing my depressive feelings..! Ugh, anyways sorry to rant like this.. Kudos to you and GiftofGABA on the effort to collect info on successful/unsuccessful dosing strategies and Nardil knowledge in general, keep up the good work! For the record, I take all 75mg in the morning on a full stomach and prior to this dose I spent 5 weeks on 60mg, plus about 2-3 weeks on random varying amounts lol

From the info you guys have seen on Ashwin & other Nardil success stories, how long do you think is a reasonable estimate to expect this 'stoned' feeling to disappear somewhat..? the spacey borderline-retard moments I loathe ;P



brownjesus4566 said:


> Completely agree with your points, and my worries have been assuaged. I have been at 75 mg for a only a week, so I'm not expecting positive results for a while. But I'm confident in Nardil, and my research. I will stay at 75 mg, no reason to drop.
> 
> Sides have been somnolence, a general stoned feeling like you experienced, dry mouth, and insomnia. The insomnia, however, is not detrimental, and I wake up refreshed; I actually enjoy lying in bed thinking about life, sometimes listening to music. Speaking of orthostatic hypotension, I experinced this for the first time today, and it was actually pleasurable, if this makes sense. I think my side effects generally align wih yours and others' experiences, so I think that's a good sign that the medication is doing it's work.


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

I've been on 75-90mg since day one for about a year. I've had short periods where I've taken up to 200mg, but that's rare. It's still working very well for me.. I believe the only downside for starting high is increased problematic side effects. But they won't kill you, they'll just make life more interesting...


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

hworth said:


> Hey brownjesus, that's definitely a great sign that you've gotten orthostatic hypotension at this point! Looks like you and I have been on 75mg for pretty much the exact same amount of time (1 week) and so far my experience with side effects is 100% identical to yours. As of 1-2 days ago I've noticed the really strange 'stoned' feeling like you guys are mentioning and I've definitely got some dry mouth/drier skin going on too along with insomnia. I probably get 4 hours of sleep per night even if I take a Temazepam, and for whatever reason I always wake up at like 3am unable to fall back asleep until I've wasted 2hrs of lying in bed awake.. and although it doesn't bother me too much initially when I wake up, I've started getting that afternoon fatigue particularly bad around 12-1pm where it feels like I'm barely even conscious of what's going on around me and I could fall asleep at any moment hahah. Also, there's a general dis coordination to my physical moments (I keep bumping into things) and people are asking me "What?" when I'm speaking more than usual as if maybe I'm slurring my words a bit without realizing it. And I'm experiencing hypotension. Seems like I had a couple days' worth of giddiness & happy feelings when I upped dose but now I'm back to a normal state and feel a little disappointed that I've "crashed" so to speak.. although my general talkativeness is still much more than before and I hardly feel anxious except for the self-awareness of my occasional slurring & spacey-ness, my mood is kind of dog sh*t again and I still have somewhat bothersome depressing thoughts throughout the day (although I am just starting out a new semester of school which is obviously kind of a wet blanket on my mood).. general malaise and optimism has faded again, I know anxiety gets better on Nardil before mood and that seemed to be somewhat accurate on 60mg to an extent but I'm really getting somewhat impatient holding out for phenelzine's long-term antidepressant effects  if this is how I'm gonna have to feel til it truly 'kicks in' I'm gonna be tempted to experiment with Kratom for the short-term alleviation of this "what's the point" feeling since it'd probably be safe at low dosages and maybe help my hypotension even.. Coffee works to give me energy obviously but I also get this odd feeling of confusion from it which is weird. Boostingtir mentioned in one of his posts that Soy PS supplemented in the morning can help reduce cortisol and therefore prevent this coffee-induced confusion plus ease Nardil's effect on bad memory, should I maybe try this? Or could it have a negative effect on Nardil's efficacy
> 
> The frustrating part is not knowing whether it's the hypotension causing my depressive feelings..! Ugh, anyways sorry to rant like this.. Kudos to you and GiftofGABA on the effort to collect info on successful/unsuccessful dosing strategies and Nardil knowledge in general, keep up the good work! For the record, I take all 75mg in the morning on a full stomach and prior to this dose I spent 5 weeks on 60mg, plus about 2-3 weeks on random varying amounts lol
> 
> From the info you guys have seen on Ashwin & other Nardil success stories, how long do you think is a reasonable estimate to expect this 'stoned' feeling to disappear somewhat..? the spacey borderline-retard moments I loathe ;P


Fascinating that our sides are identical, even the insomnia I'm experiencing is very similar to yours, but I'm not using any sleep aids so far. I'm expecting the insomnia to get worse though. People keep jokingly asking me if I'm high, I have a bit of a reputation, and some ask if I'm getting enough sleep. I also got mild, very mild euphoria when I upped the dose, but it literally lasted like 2 hours. I'm also talking to people more, but the weird thing is my social skills don't feel like they've improved at all, and the anxiety is still as bad. It's just that I talk more for some reason. Oh, and I'm also starting a new semester of school! I actually feel depression has lessened becsuse of this, since I am spending a lot of energy adapting to my new schedule and keeping busy. But the downside is that Nardil's stoned effect and current anticognitive effect is really detrimental to my ability in the classroom. I also would like to know when this dissipates, but sadly I think that it goes away once Nardil becomes effective, so we've still got some time, I guess we have to power through it, I'm planning to spend a lot more time studying, long nights at the library :/.

I can definitely relate to what you say about wanting the antidepressant effects--I'm so looking forward to the chill, calm mood that giftofgaba described, where motivation is up and nothing bothers him. Currently my motivation is very low, and destructive thoughts are rampant--case in point, my freakout over my dosing schedule.

You mentioned that you think the hypotension might be causing depression, is it that you think the stoned, slurry effects are making you more depressed because you can't function as well, or is there actually a link between hypotension and depression?

Nice to meet you by the way!


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

There's an interesting piece of information about Nardil that I read, from a review off askapatient.com. Someone claimed that "Nardil was the drug of choice by doctors during WW1. Soldiers riddled with fear couldn't return to the battle field.. The drug gave instant relief of fear." This intrigued me, because it means that Nardil's reduction of social anxiety may just be a reduction of phobia and anxiety in general. However, I did not find this information anywhere else on the internet, and also the person claims that the drug gave "instant relief of fear" which is generally not the way Nardil works, as we have all seen. So not sure about the veracity of this claim, but it's certainly possible.

Just thought I'd mention this, seems interesting.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I think there's a lot of truth to that. Nardil's effect likely extends to mitigation of other fears as well. I have a fear of heights and being on an airplane. On my recent flight to and from Cuba I experienced zero fear. I can also imagine going on amusement park rides now, something unfathomable before.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Chopsu, what is your best strategy for getting the Nardil magic back? I saw you refer to this in another post where you suggested going off N completely(?) for 10 days and then restarting (at one's baseline dose?). Any other strategies? I've heard of merely lowering the dose, say by half, for a few days and then returning to the baseline dose. Suggestions?

Can I also ask, what was your experience with taking those super high doses for brief periods?


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

brownjesus4566 said:


> There's an interesting piece of information about Nardil that I read, from a review off askapatient.com. Someone claimed that "Nardil was the drug of choice by doctors during WW1. Soldiers riddled with fear couldn't return to the battle field.. The drug gave instant relief of fear." This intrigued me, because it means that Nardil's reduction of social anxiety may just be a reduction of phobia and anxiety in general. However, I did not find this information anywhere else on the internet, and also the person claims that the drug gave "instant relief of fear" which is generally not the way Nardil works, as we have all seen. So not sure about the veracity of this claim, but it's certainly possible.
> 
> Just thought I'd mention this, seems interesting.


phenelzine wasn't around during either WWI or WWII so that person's history tidbit isn't correct, although the effects he/she speaks of may very well be experienced by many who take the drug.

i believe amphetamine and methamphetamine were widely used during WWII, though.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

basuraeuropea said:


> phenelzine wasn't around during either WWI or WWII so that person's history tidbit isn't correct, although the effects he/she speaks of may very well be experienced by many who take the drug.
> 
> i believe amphetamine and methamphetamine were widely used during WWII, though.


LOL, wonder where he got that info from then. Probably confused it with some other drug. It didn't make much sense anyway since phenelzine takes an unpredictable amount of time to take effect.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

Yeah I guess I'm trying to say I'm not sure if hypotension cause cause feelings of depression or not.. From what I've read it's entirely a possibility however! I don't think that's primarily what's doing it though

I'm thinking I should drop down to 60mg again and just stay there finally, here's my reasoning:

1. My initial trial of 60mg actually went very well and I believe Nardil kicked in, as I was getting great anxiety relief and also side effects (getting no sleep at all some nights, hypotension, afternoon fatigue)
2. I wasn't taking all 60mg at once in the AM at a consistent time, instead I was splitting it up. So when I thought I wasn't necessarily noticing hypotension sometimes that might've been the reason, also I was noticing weird fluctuation in mood/energy which was probably due to not taking it all at once.
3. I was taking Lyrica off and on during this period of 60mg, and only towards the end when I dropped my dose to 45mg (for 2 weeks, when I attempted a maintenance dose before going up to 75mg as if now) did I realize it causes severe depression and sucidial thoughts in me.
4. I wasn't eating breakfast before taking my morning dose (big key for Nardil for me lol)
5. Lastly, right now on 75mg I'm actually feeling worse as of today than before on 60. It's like I'm getting way too much dopamine and I feel on-edge, keyed up. This is actually what happened last time I went to 75mg my first ever Nardil trial now that I remember it (I was extremely panicky in elevators and heights bothered me super bad, vs how 60mg actually made me very calm and fearless)

Soo.. doesn't it sound logical that I should accept maybe 75mg is too much for me and 60 is the sweet spot? Guess I'm just looking for some external assurance that my 3rd dose change makes sense hahah 

Oh, and I'd be curious to know about how Chop handles his a Nardil too, GiftofGABA



brownjesus4566 said:


> Fascinating that our sides are identical, even the insomnia I'm experiencing is very similar to yours, but I'm not using any sleep aids so far. I'm expecting the insomnia to get worse though. People keep jokingly asking me if I'm high, I have a bit of a reputation, and some ask if I'm getting enough sleep. I also got mild, very mild euphoria when I upped the dose, but it literally lasted like 2 hours. I'm also talking to people more, but the weird thing is my social skills don't feel like they've improved at all, and the anxiety is still as bad. It's just that I talk more for some reason. Oh, and I'm also starting a new semester of school! I actually feel depression has lessened becsuse of this, since I am spending a lot of energy adapting to my new schedule and keeping busy. But the downside is that Nardil's stoned effect and current anticognitive effect is really detrimental to my ability in the classroom. I also would like to know when this dissipates, but sadly I think that it goes away once Nardil becomes effective, so we've still got some time, I guess we have to power through it, I'm planning to spend a lot more time studying, long nights at the library :/.
> 
> I can definitely relate to what you say about wanting the antidepressant effects--I'm so looking forward to the chill, calm mood that giftofgaba described, where motivation is up and nothing bothers him. Currently my motivation is very low, and destructive thoughts are rampant--case in point, my freakout over my dosing schedule.
> 
> ...


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

*PART VI**I*

*Day 58* :

Another update in case someone out there isn't bored of these yet.

The most interesting thing that's happened since day 55 is that almost all signs of *hypertension* and *hypotension* are _gone_. Apart from the *anorgasmia*, I was actually growing attached to my sides because they felt like assurance that something was happening. Then when I had a bad day yesterday (which coincided with the disappearance of hypotension) I did feel a certain apprehension. Let me tell you about that.

I woke up feeling a typical sort of medium mood thinking, well, my Nardil _should_ fix that. A few hours later a small worry set in because I wasn't getting much of an effect. Then many hours later, I began to worry a bit more because it's been quite some time since I had what I'd call a "neutral day". You know, I just figured that on 90mg, I'd reached an unassailable zenith. I should mention that despite the worry, there was a certain calm anyway. It's like I can't feel anxiety in that familiar brain/body place anymore. I know where it _should_ reside and how its onset feels but it just doesn't manifest. I think it's 10-20% will and 80-90% Nardil that buries the anxiety. That said, socially I was a lot more uncomfortable. I was at a 4.5/10 perhaps. My afternoon dose really didn't improve matters.

So I plugged along, drinking my coffees and such but I didn't feel motivated to do much. Normally when I feel good now, I really want to organize. If I start organizing and cleaning frantically I know something good is happening because I never did this pre-N. To make a long story short, at around 9pm I felt a certain kick-in effect. I'd gone out to the store to get some pastries and noticed myself doing a thing that I do when I'm confident and that's the old standing up straight, making solid eye-contact and taking a little chance thing. Like, why not look someone straight in the eye with just the right amount of attention and looking away at the precisely exact moments, and the right amount of affectionate smirk, and try to generate that smile that I always seem to get now. I don't know what caused what. Did my cognitive and behavioral strategies augment my mood or did the Nardil simply kick in and cause me to act more confident. But whatever. The effect is back albeit somewhat smoother due to less sides. I miss my hypotension! I'd say my mood and anxiety are slightly lower than my last report, maybe 7-7.5 in both departments, but that's totally cool and I currently feel good. I just want this to last for a long time.

This morning was pretty darned good. After my morning dose I felt even better than last night. I did something different. I take 3 pills orally in the morning. But today I swallowed 2 of them with a bit of alcohol and honey as per usual (to increase absorption) but with the third pill, I crushed it to smithereens (hey, what is a smithereen singular?) and licked it off the cutting board and took it sublingually for as long as I could stand it. Its taste and effect on the breath are um...not super pleasant. On a side note, the metabolized Nardil seeping through my pores creates a somewhat unpleasant smell which my girlfriend likes to remind me about. She calls it "Nardurian", a portmanteau of Nardil and durian fruit. I prefer to think of it as galvanized asparagus. Anyway, I have no idea if sublingual method of administration helped but I did feel the kick-in quickly, with ultra mild hypertension. All in all, a good day, even though I spent it at a funeral.

I made a post in my thread on Nardil augmentation, about enhancing Nardil absorption. I'm waiting on some Bioperine and enteric capsules but until they magically appear at my doorstep, I do have some CoQ10 with 5mg bioperine so I'll be testing that out tomorrow. I figure the CoQ10 is good for cardiac functioning anyway which can't hurt after all the stress I've put my little ticker through in the last couple months.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

And hworth, how long and how consistently did you stay on 60mg before? Did you get an acceptable effect? Let's not rush and hop around like a Mexican jumping bean. Just accept that some days will be **** and deal with it however you can. I remember before, you were second guessing yourself too much and the outcome wasn't great. You need to tolerate a certain amount of suckiness. This is new for you. Don't go back into those familiar patterns just for temporary comfort. You need to learn once and for all if Nardil will work properly for you. Just stick it out dude, it'll work!


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> *PART VI**I*
> 
> *Day 58* :
> 
> ...


Since this has only happened once so far, I'm not sure it means that the medication's efficacy is waning, or if it means anything at all. But by all means, please keep trying the new methods of dosing, and let us know if they work any better. Have the alcohol and honey helped noticeably?

Also, I think ChopSuey mentioned, in a post on another thread, that the unbreakable calm that he originally felt on 90 mg somewhat dissipated after a few months, and the effects of Nardil were still prominent but were a little less significant. This might be what is happening, but it's much too early to draw any conclusions.

Finally, I'll never get bored of your updates, I find them fascinating and extremely valuable, so please keep making them!


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Hey browny, I appreciate the encouragement. I also like your dedication and attention to detail + focus when it comes to observing the finer points. I think attitude can account for as much as 10% of Nardil's likelihood of success. Where there's a will there's a way, kind of thing.

The alcohol and honey thing is by way of simulating the "old Nardil". I'm trying to recreate some of its excipients, at least with the honey thing, with the ultimate aim of enhancing small intestinal absorption. Honey is an invert sugar which is like one of the excipients in the original Nardil. My inspiration for this idea comes from Michael Bell's comments at psychobabble. I think everything will make a bit more sense once I get the enteric capsules. Check his comments out here:

http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl?post=/babble/20060212/msgs/610471.html#610471

Note that there is serious debate on whether the old Nardil is really any different from the new Nardil. Still, I see this investigation as a plausible and relatively new route for enhancing N whether or not there's a difference.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

How good is the Anti-Anxiety effect of Nardil in general? Do one often need to augment with a Benzo anyway?


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

It's remarkable. Nardil is truly a monotherapy--you don't need anything else. I haven't had the slightest urge to use anything else other than caffeine and occasionally alcohol (for fun). Earlier in my trial I was getting some physical anxiety symptoms like shaky hands, so I'd briefly considered using pregabalin PRN; but that effect is pretty much gone now. For kicks, I might try some pregabalin or clonazepam to generate an absurd anxiolysis but I couldn't say that I "need" such a thing. I like to play around I guess.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Hey browny, I appreciate the encouragement. I also like your dedication and attention to detail + focus when it comes to observing the finer points. I think attitude can account for as much as 10% of Nardil's likelihood of success. Where there's a will there's a way, kind of thing.
> 
> The alcohol and honey thing is by way of simulating the "old Nardil". I'm trying to recreate some of its excipients, at least with the honey thing, with the ultimate aim of enhancing small intestinal absorption. Honey is an invert sugar which is like one of the excipients in the original Nardil. My inspiration for this idea comes from Michael Bell's comments at psychobabble. I think everything will make a bit more sense once I get the enteric capsules. Check his comments out here:
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've seen the thread, and considered trying strategies like these myself, but I've decided not to worry about new vs old for now since I'm waiting for MAO inhibition anyway. I will definitely pay attention to your results with these strategies and consider implementing them later in the game.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Today I think I experienced Nardil's therapeutic effects for the first time, albeit at a low potency. During an icebreaker on the first day of class I didn't experience debilitating anxiety like I usually do. It was strange: the physical anxiety was almost nonexistent, yet I felt no pro-social effects or better social skills, and my depression hasn't changed. I think it was like a beta blocker, but I've never taken one so I'm not too sure. It might have been the GABA increase, because I dosed an hour before. Nevertheless I'm expecting more from Nardil regarding sa and depression, but it was nice to be relieved of severe social anxiety, and it indicates that I might be a gradual responder to Nardil.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

Yeah you're right lol  thanks for the tough love. Do you think I should start splitting my 75mg up into 2 parts maybe?



GiftofGABA said:


> And hworth, how long and how consistently did you stay on 60mg before? Did you get an acceptable effect? Let's not rush and hop around like a Mexican jumping bean. Just accept that some days will be **** and deal with it however you can. I remember before, you were second guessing yourself too much and the outcome wasn't great. You need to tolerate a certain amount of suckiness. This is new for you. Don't go back into those familiar patterns just for temporary comfort. You need to learn once and for all if Nardil will work properly for you. Just stick it out dude, it'll work!


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## sneakerfreaker01 (Mar 20, 2013)

im on 9 weeks of Nardil (60mg/day) and I cannot ejaculate for the life of me.

If I could just get this one thing to work (ejaculation), I would have complete faith in Nardil. 

But this part does scare me. Increase in Libido and ability to ejaculate are necessary results needed for me to move forward with this drug. Penis barely stays hard.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

This is good news, you're doing fine. You've only been on Nardil what 8 days now? Could take many weeks to start feeling the goodies. You might not even be gradual. IIRC, I didn't get anything positive at all for between two and three weeks. I'll add that I don't think N works in the intuitive way one would expect. Like if my cumulative dose at day 21 was 630mg, I don't believe that you'd necessarily get the same response in 7 days by initiating therapy at 90mg. I think there are substantial diminishing returns by beginning therapy at a high dose, although I do believe there are returns. I just don't know how to measure them. Let me take a stab. By day 14 I think you'll have a "good day" where for some part of the day, you get to know the Nardil magic.



brownjesus4566 said:


> Today I think I experienced Nardil's therapeutic effects for the first time, albeit at a low potency. During an icebreaker on the first day of class I didn't experience debilitating anxiety like I usually do. It was strange: the physical anxiety was almost nonexistent, yet I felt no pro-social effects or better social skills, and my depression hasn't changed. I think it was like a beta blocker, but I've never taken one so I'm not too sure. It might have been the GABA increase, because I dosed an hour before. Nevertheless I'm expecting more from Nardil regarding sa and depression, but it was nice to be relieved of severe social anxiety, and it indicates that I might be a gradual responder to Nardil.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Don't give up yet. Are the positives of your Nardil going well now? If yes, then you just have to find the solution to that one troubling issue. For me, Nardil is perfect therapeutically and I'd even give up ejaculation permanently if I could maintain this effect. I saw in your other thread you were concerned about permanent libido death. I can't see this happening. Do you have any references showing this can happen?

A quick fix for a not satisfactory hard-on is just to take a PDE5i like Viagra or Levitra (superior to V IMO). Assuming you don't have bad hypotension, this is perfectly safe to use. That should clear up the erection stuff. So then you just have to figure out libido and anorgasmia. I had zero libido for about three weeks but I assume your situation here is worse. Give it another two months at your current dose and if then you still have trouble then look into pharmacological solutions or just try a drug solution now. But give it two more months to find out if your libido returns. Normally most side-effects abate given enough time. I'll be trialling Ritalin soon so I can report on that. And there are a few other things you could try as well such as Trazodone. The Ritalin has the potential to increase libido AND anorgasmia, so we'll see. I'm rambling, so I'll end here. Feel free to add anything else and I'll try to respond or hopefully someone else with more experience chimes in.



sneakerfreaker01 said:


> im on 9 weeks of Nardil (60mg/day) and I cannot ejaculate for the life of me.
> 
> If I could just get this one thing to work (ejaculation), I would have complete faith in Nardil.
> 
> But this part does scare me. Increase in Libido and ability to ejaculate are necessary results needed for me to move forward with this drug. Penis barely stays hard.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Should be enough yeah. You just need to find a Nardil friendly doctor.



failoutboy said:


> I need to get a prescription for nardil. Do you think having tried 3 ssri's, wellbutrin, and effexor is enough drug history to try for a prescription? Those medications have worked to some degree, but I still have anxiety and I feel like I'm wasting my life by not being able to do certain things because of anxiety. I am not getting any younger. I'd like to get rid of it completely.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I don't know. I do this now, but not to avoid sides anymore, it's just to stretch the effect throughout the day. I'm currently doing 4+1+1. Today I swallowed the 4 morning pills with bioperine. I don't know if it helped because the early afternoon and early evening single pills I took sublingually. They take about 45 minutes to dissolve. So I'm not really approaching this scientifically but the total effect today was great. Hope I'm not unwittingly overenhancing the dose and getting an ersatz 105mg only to have that deflate on me in a few days. But I had an 8/10 day. Had three 10 minute conversations including a deep one with a cute Chinese chick who complimented me on my approachability and "good heart". Gazed at a girl in the subway and melted her panties, and spoke a lot in class. Awesome day.



hworth said:


> Yeah you're right lol  thanks for the tough love. Do you think I should start splitting my 75mg up into 2 parts maybe?


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

GiftofGABA said:


> Chopsu, what is your best strategy for getting the Nardil magic back? I saw you refer to this in another post where you suggested going off N completely(?) for 10 days and then restarting (at one's baseline dose?). Any other strategies? I've heard of merely lowering the dose, say by half, for a few days and then returning to the baseline dose. Suggestions?
> 
> Can I also ask, what was your experience with taking those super high doses for brief periods?


Lowering dose and then increasing works the same way, but it doesn't give the same "oomph" if that makes any sense. Going off completely is more difficult, but one can definitely feel the effect once again while restarting.

When tolerance grows I have to take increased amounts to get the same good feeling/anxiety reduction back.

I've always felt pretty good while taking a high dose, except one time when my SYS/DIA went through the roof. Taking a high dose makes me feel slightly hypomanic, and blissful.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> This is good news, you're doing fine. You've only been on Nardil what 8 days now? Could take many weeks to start feeling the goodies. You might not even be gradual. IIRC, I didn't get anything positive at all for between two and three weeks. I'll add that I don't think N works in the intuitive way one would expect. Like if my cumulative dose at day 21 was 630mg, I don't believe that you'd necessarily get the same response in 7 days by initiating therapy at 90mg. I think there are substantial diminishing returns by beginning therapy at a high dose, although I do believe there are returns. I just don't know how to measure them. Let me take a stab. By day 14 I think you'll have a "good day" where for some part of the day, you get to know the Nardil magic.


I've been on Nardil for 23 days, but yeah, it's still way too early to make any conclusions. I was just mentioning what I'm experiencing on Nardil, since I think it's pretty unusual. Basically, right now, on top of the side effects, which areincreasing in multitude and intensity, I feel like I'm on a permanent beta blocker, with barely any physical anxiety. This somewhat improves my sociability and alleviates some of my depression, but does nothing for anhedonia, motivation, or social skills. I agree that Nardil's effects cannot really be predicted; I believe the most practical strategy for anyone starting on Nardil is to get up to 60-90 mg at whatever rate you feel comfortable and to stay consistently at this dose till you start to feel the effects, it could take up to 3 months.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> But I had an 8/10 day. Had three 10 minute conversations including a deep one with a cute Chinese chick who complimented me on my approachability and "good heart". Gazed at a girl in the subway and melted her panties, and spoke a lot in class. Awesome day.


Awesome! Crazy how Nardil allows you to achieve social accomplishments that many people, even some with no traces of social anxiety, can do, and how you are accessing experiences that people higher up in social circles usually have. I can't wait to start positively interacting with classmates and other students, including girls; not even really looking to hit on them, just to have meaningful conversations with them, something I barely ever do.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Yeah, it's weird. I do continue to have my former interests but it seems 90% of my energy now is focused purely on generating positive social experiences. It is just so ****ing fun to interact with people now and see a positive response. Talking to girls is intoxicating. It's weird but I do feel beyond most people in attracting attention now. I think possibly this could be caused by two things: 1) amplified empathy due to living so long in a state of fear and 2) living in that state of fear for so long has latently generated deep knowledge of subtle social cues, but the fear and avoidance having repressed the ability to exercise this knowledge had rendered me impotent to even be aware of its existence. 

Like you mentioned, and for me too, this isn't really even about hitting on chicks. It's just so satisfying being able to master this thing in which I've been so utterly inept for so long. There's a pure joy in connecting with others and making them happy. Social contact is fundamental to human pleasure I'm discovering. I don't even care about increasing my social circle. Just interacting with anyone I come across is lovely.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Yeah, it's weird. I do continue to have my former interests but it seems 90% of my energy now is focused purely on generating positive social experiences. It is just so ****ing fun to interact with people now and see a positive response. Talking to girls is intoxicating. It's weird but I do feel beyond most people in attracting attention now. I think possibly this could be caused by two things: 1) amplified empathy due to living so long in a state of fear and 2) living in that state of fear for so long has latently generated deep knowledge of subtle social cues, but the fear and avoidance having repressed the ability to exercise this knowledge had rendered me impotent to even be aware of its existence.
> 
> Like you mentioned, and for me too, this isn't really even about hitting on chicks. It's just so satisfying being able to master this thing in which I've been so utterly inept for so long. There's a pure joy in connecting with others and making them happy. Social contact is fundamental to human pleasure I'm discovering. I don't even care about increasing my social circle. Just interacting with anyone I come across is lovely.


Yeah I was just pondering this during one of my sleepless nights. People who have lived free of social anxiety all their lives, and who have had great so ial skills since childhood, cannot possibly understand how great it feels fo us to have a great social encounter, and in addition, they cannot comprehend how powerful this ability makes us feel--successful social interactions make me feel like I can do anything, achieve all my aspirations, just by engaging with people and receiving their help while I help them. In a way I feel sorry for them, since to me socializing successfully is just a beautiful thing. Of course, my experiences are from alcohol, which makes me both confident and destroys my social anxiety, I imagine it'd be even better on Nardil.

It sounds so amazing, how you can make such a great impression on people and come across as an empathetic, trustworthy person. Honestly, if Nardil just does this for me, and if it never loses its efficacy over time, this will literally be a life changer. I must stop getting my expectations so high however LOL, it's very likely that Nardil will never reach this point for me, it's so random how people feel on it.


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## mr t (Jan 28, 2010)

GiftofGaba,

If you're having that bad of orthostatic hypotension you should lower your dose, not just wait for it to go away. Its dangerous and you wont function well if your blood pressure is that low.

I know you said it did go away for you after a while but for others-if you are having OH all the time--lower your dose by 15mg and let that settle out.

For inorgasmia consider provigil or nuvigil. I personally think nuvigil is a better, clear drug. might give you that extra dopamine bump you need to achieve orgasm.

Also if you feel like you are having a nardil poop out (not as effective), drop dosage by 15-30mg for around 2 weeks, then bump dosage back up. This has worked for me many times.

good luck to all.

-mr t


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

I dont find OH from my Parnate related to low BP... If i dose more then 30mg at once i get OH. I have also find that taking Solian/Amisulpride, wich raises Dopamine works against OH...


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Hey guys,

Hope you're doing fine and Nardil is treating you well. I had a question about orthostatic hypotension. Currently I get episodes of OH, but they do not occur every time I get up, no matter how quickly. They are pretty random in when they occur. Generally what tends to exacerbate them is suddenly turning the light on, or getting up in a place in which the light and heat are strong. They generally occur like maybe three or four times a day, though I get up quickly many more times than that. In addition, they are not very severe, and last like five to ten seconds. I was wondering if this is normal, if this is a stage that occurred for you guys, or did you have OH every time you got up when it started. In addition, did they start out mildly like mine?

Also another side effect is bothering me, blurry vision. I seem to be nearsighted; I cannot read signs and the classroom projector. Are there any remedies for this, or do I just have to wait it out?

Finally, are there any OTC medications for fatigue? You guys have ben discussing prescription drugs such as Modafinil, but I don't want to spend money on another psychiatric appointment, though I am sure I will get the prescription. In addition, I don't have the money to order Modafinil online; my parents won't purchase drugs illegally, they are paying for my Nardil. I currently drink as much coffee as I can, but do any of you guys have any more effective OTC drugs?

Thanks all


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

First off Browny, the appearance of OH and hypotension is generally a very good sign! I expect you will start experiencing the positive aspects or Nardil very shortly.

Yes, the onset of OH was gradual for me. I first noticed it happening a few times a day, and then it happened quite frequently. The experience you're getting with light, I can relate to. In fact, just tonight I was getting intolerable hypotension from gazing at my monitor, a bright light source. When I moved into a more darkly lit part of my room, the symptoms subsided significantly. So I think visual information does connect to hypotension somewhat. It's plausible. This wasn't a stage for me though, it's just an ongoing phenomenon, a side effect of the side effect of hypotension. Blurry vision is absolutely normal. Also light sources appearing too bright, or splotches of missing information (dark areas) in your field of view. This is due to low blood pressure. Don't try to fix it, it will go away eventually.

For fatigue, I'm not sure what to suggest. I use caffeine all throughout the day because I like the mild buzz I get from it, but it doesn't really have much of an impact on me in terms of fatigue. I am considering a modafinil-- actually armodafinil--order from an online source soon. After I bioassay it for safety and quality, I'd be willing to send you a small amount so that you can at least determine whether or not it's effective for you.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> First off Browny, the appearance of OH and hypotension is generally a very good sign! I expect you will start experiencing the positive aspects or Nardil very shortly.
> 
> Yes, the onset of OH was gradual for me. I first noticed it happening a few times a day, and then it happened quite frequently. The experience you're getting with light, I can relate to. In fact, just tonight I was getting intolerable hypotension from gazing at my monitor, a bright light source. When I moved into a more darkly lit part of my room, the symptoms subsided significantly. So I think visual information does connect to hypotension somewhat. It's plausible. This wasn't a stage for me though, it's just an ongoing phenomenon, a side effect of the side effect of hypotension. Blurry vision is absolutely normal. Also light sources appearing too bright, or splotches of missing information (dark areas) in your field of view. This is due to low blood pressure. Don't try to fix it, it will go away eventually.
> 
> For fatigue, I'm not sure what to suggest. I use caffeine all throughout the day because I like the mild buzz I get from it, but it doesn't really have much of an impact on me in terms of fatigue. I am considering a modafinil-- actually armodafinil--order from an online source soon. After I bioassay it for safety and quality, I'd be willing to send you a small amount so that you can at least determine whether or not it's effective for you.


Thank you. I've had OH for about a week, so I'm a bit worried because not much in terms of positive effects is occuring, but I'm patiently waiting. Blurry vision is problematic, but if there's nothing I can do about it like you say, I'll just wait it out. And yeah, I'd love to try out armodafinil if you obtain it, although it'd be hard for me to obtain my own supply. But if it completely obliterates the fatigue I'll find some way. Thanks!


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

No problem. There is a way to mitigate these sides you're experiencing and that's to drop down by 15mg on your dose. mr.t advocates this, although I'm a bit more of a risk taker and I prefer to just muscle through. I'd forgotten my ghetto solution to helping hypotension. It's actually very effective and you'll notice its effects in 5-10 minutes. Here's what you do. Take a cup of lukewarm water and dissolve as much salt as you can handle into it. For me, I like a lot. Like a full teaspoon or more. You might like to start at 1/2 teaspoon, the taste is yucky. This gives you a nice temporary relief (maybe an hour) from OH and hypotension.

I will connect with you soon about the Armodafinil. I've got a local supplier who ships very quickly.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> No problem. There is a way to mitigate these sides you're experiencing and that's to drop down by 15mg on your dose. mr.t advocates this, although I'm a bit more of a risk taker and I prefer to just muscle through. I'd forgotten my ghetto solution to helping hypotension. It's actually very effective and you'll notice its effects in 5-10 minutes. Here's what you do. Take a cup of lukewarm water and dissolve as much salt as you can handle into it. For me, I like a lot. Like a full teaspoon or more. You might like to start at 1/2 teaspoon, the taste is yucky. This gives you a nice temporary relief (maybe an hour) from OH and hypotension.
> 
> I will connect with you soon about the Armodafinil. I've got a local supplier who ships very quickly.


Thanks for the solution. Right now hypotension is pretty much the only side effect that doesn't bother me, it's actually kind of pleasurable as I mentioned before, but if it gets too severe I will definitely try the salt water out. I'm more concerned actually about not experiencing enough OH, but I think that will increase with time. Could you tell me when exactly after your first hypotension symptoms that they increased in severity, and by how much? Just want to make sure I'm "on schedule" for lack of a better term.

The fatigue however is very detrimental to say the least. I am forced to take a nap every day--Ashwin mentioned that taking naps made Nardil less effective for him--but I literally cannot stay awake in the afternoon, and I am tired for the rest of the day, probably also a result of insomnia. So I will buy caffeine pills for now, but they don't really do much for me, it's more of a placebo that I'm aware of. So yeah, definitely let me know if you obtain armodafinil, I've always wanted to try it out just out of my own curiousity, even before I started Nardil.

I didn't mention that I have started to get urinary retention. I couldn't urinate for half a day and I was terrified that I would need to get a catheter inserted, something that I hope I never have to experience, but I discovered that urine flow came out when I had a bowel movement. This trend has continued, and whenever I cannot urinate I empty my bowels of whatever waste I have, and this allows me go urinate. Hopefully, that tip helps people with this symptom. Generally I urinate half as frequently as before now, but it's not a big deal anymore. I was just scared that one time.

So insomnia and fatigue are the side effects that are mainly kicking my *** right now, everything else is easy to deal with, really hoping Nardil does as much for me as it did for you in terms of positive effects, so that these crippling side effects will be worth it.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Ha yeah, I kind of like it too now that I don't experience weird panic attacks from it (specifically OH). Do try the salt water out, it's transient but borderline miraculous. It'll make you feel better in a pinch.

For the timeline of all my symptoms, I suggest revisiting some of my earlier journal entries. Maybe around the third one. But, let me try to recollect...I'd say that it took approximately 15 days from the onset of any hypotension to the most severe effects. I've dealt with hypotension in the past from other meds so I generally have a good sense on how to mitigate the worst of it. My main strategy has always been to find the correct posture and stay there until I was able to be totally vertical or whatever. So I've never fainted though many others have such as puppy. Smashing my head on ceramic or concrete is not a scenario I'd like to have happen. Also, there's a sheer horror involved in losing that kind of control. Reminds me of death. So I'm very careful about nearing that precipice. BUT, it did get very bad within that span of time. I had to deal with symptoms for many hours of the day at times. After dosing I'd usually get a hypertensive response which lasted about 90 minutes so that was partial relief.

Don't confuse the side-effect though for the desired therapeutic response. OH doesn't cause you to feel better. It just seems to be highly correlated with N kicking in. So don't be afraid to fix it when/if it feels funny. This will not inhibit Nardil. I've done the salt thing all day long on occasion and it only helped. So not to be worried about getting insufficient OH, lack of sides could be a boon.

Your fatigue sounds a little worse than mine was. I get energized by Nardil and that excitement gets me through the day. Course I'd love a boost, I have taken a fair share of mid-day naps and previously I did suffer from greater drowsiness throughout the day. The armo is likely coming. Feel free to PM on that subject.

Urinary retention huh? Mine lasted only a few days and was quite mild but yes I have pissed out my *** on a number of occasions (sorry).

Insomnia remains a difficult issue. Sometimes I can sleep for a very long time (usually when everything catches up with me and I just sort of hibernate for 15 hours) but 6/7 days of the week it's 4 interrupted crappy hours. 

I'd be gratified if you get my kind of response. I really would. I'm here to help that happen.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Ha yeah, I kind of like it too now that I don't experience weird panic attacks from it (specifically OH). Do try the salt water out, it's transient but borderline miraculous. It'll make you feel better in a pinch.
> 
> For the timeline of all my symptoms, I suggest revisiting some of my earlier journal entries. Maybe around the third one. But, let me try to recollect...I'd say that it took approximately 15 days from the onset of any hypotension to the most severe effects. I've dealt with hypotension in the past from other meds so I generally have a good sense on how to mitigate the worst of it. My main strategy has always been to find the correct posture and stay there until I was able to be totally vertical or whatever. So I've never fainted though many others have such as puppy. Smashing my head on ceramic or concrete is not a scenario I'd like to have happen. Also, there's a sheer horror involved in losing that kind of control. Reminds me of death. So I'm very careful about nearing that precipice. BUT, it did get very bad within that span of time. I had to deal with symptoms for many hours of the day at times. After dosing I'd usually get a hypertensive response which lasted about 90 minutes so that was partial relief.
> 
> ...


Sure, I will take a closer look at your updates. I think I am experiencing the gradual changes that you were, and I'm pretty sure it isn't placebo. Today I felt comfortable conversing in a group of college students, though I know them pretty well, I have never felt this comfortable conversing in a group of peers. I 
was very talkative, cracking many juvenile jokes that had people chortling the entire time. While my contribution to the conersation was certainly positive, and increased my likeability, I did not feel any more mature or adept in socializing, and I felt that the personality I was embodying would not hold over well when making an impression on other, less familiar people. And this is my goal, to comfortably make relationships with and make favorable impressions on many people, and amass some new, quality friends. In addition, I want to completely revamp my personality and social skills--basically what I conveyed before, and what you have experienced. I will still give Nardil more weeks to act, and I am pleased with my results, I am just waiting for the amazing, life changing experiences that you had--hopefully I am getting closer to tis outcome.

I have sent my doctor a message, updating him with my progress and asking him to allow me to go to 90 mg. In the message I described the side effects as less in multitude and less severe, but I also didn't admit to as much benefit as I actually experienced--this is to maximize my chances of being allowed to up my dosage. I have no idea how he will react, because he has allowed me to use my judgement before, but he believes that the absolute msximum dosage is 90 mg, and I m not sure how he will feel about me being at this dose. Hopefully I will increase my dosage by the end of this week, however if for ehatever reason he does not consent, I will be content waiting at 75 mg for positive effects, it shouldnt make that much of a difference. Do you think it will?

Coincidentially, after discussing my urinary retention it has completely ceased. Insomnia and fatige are still hard to deal with, along with blurry vision. Surprisingly, my appetite is the same, though I will admit I eat more sweet foods. I have an unsatiable craving for cereal and milk, and I eat it every morning without fail.


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## mr t (Jan 28, 2010)

lol, im telling u guys that if u drop ur dose down 15mg for a bit and let the hypotension resolve itself u will have a much easier time.

I had hypotension at 60mg when i first got up there, it wasnt all the time and i never lost conciousness or fell down thankfully.

I went down to 45mg for a while bc i felt great at 60mg and wanted to reduce some side effects. Next time i bumped up to 60mg i didnt have any OH, insomina, urinary retention etc.

U gotta think about how ur body is responding to this drug. its a foreign compound and ur body is gonna act wacked out and have more side effects the more agressively u increase dose.

The more time u give ur body to adjust to the drug at a lower dose u will have less side effects etc.

I understand what yall are saying about experiencing hypotension and that correlating to an effective dose/enough MAO inhibition. but i dont see OH as something to play around with.

I know we all want to feel better right away and move on from this SA bull**** but if we take just a bit more time to let ur bodies adjust i think it will be much more beneficial.

whats the point of feeling better if ur tired to move or everytime u stand up u get dizzy?

i personally dont have any side effects at 60mg currently, much of that i attribute to giving myself time to adjust.

anyway, i know some of u arent gonna listen to my reasoning (COUGH, GiftofGaba, COUGH!  ) but i thought id give it a shot anyway haha.

Good luck to all!


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Ha! Wise words. In terms of sexual side-effects do you think that they are mitigated by going more slowly as well? Do you think the slow and steady approach would ultimately yield cessation of certain sides where a faster approach might not _ever_ yield said effect?


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

watertouch said:


> I dont find OH from my Parnate related to low BP... If i dose more then 30mg at once i get OH. I have also find that taking Solian/Amisulpride, wich raises Dopamine works against OH...


I also noticed that Nicotine (Swedish snus) can cause this if i also have high amount of Parnate in the system.(but not enough to cause OH by itself)


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Mr. T, thanks for your advice about hypotension, I will drinitely try to svoid i even if it means reducing dosage. Just wondering, do you think Nardil fatigue is caused by hypotension? I get attacks of utte fatigue and somnolence from 11-5 each day.

Also, your glowing report was part of what convinced me to seek out Nardil. Are you still experiencing the great benefits that you reported off NArdil, and did your results parallel GiftofGaba, Ashwin, colonelpoop, or anyone else's in any way?

Thanks


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Always a good idea to have extra medication on hand even if you don't use it so I say go for obtaining the 90mg. I'd wait a while at 75mg though to get over some of the sides. I got a lot of problems as you know and I went slower than you. My sexual sides are back with a vengeance now  What brand are you using by the way?

On a side note: does anyone know which online US pharmacy has the Gavis brand?



brownjesus4566 said:


> Sure, I will take a closer look at your updates. I think I am experiencing the gradual changes that you were, and I'm pretty sure it isn't placebo. Today I felt comfortable conversing in a group of college students, though I know them pretty well, I have never felt this comfortable conversing in a group of peers. I
> was very talkative, cracking many juvenile jokes that had people chortling the entire time. While my contribution to the conersation was certainly positive, and increased my likeability, I did not feel any more mature or adept in socializing, and I felt that the personality I was embodying would not hold over well when making an impression on other, less familiar people. And this is my goal, to comfortably make relationships with and make favorable impressions on many people, and amass some new, quality friends. In addition, I want to completely revamp my personality and social skills--basically what I conveyed before, and what you have experienced. I will still give Nardil more weeks to act, and I am pleased with my results, I am just waiting for the amazing, life changing experiences that you had--hopefully I am getting closer to tis outcome.
> 
> I have sent my doctor a message, updating him with my progress and asking him to allow me to go to 90 mg. In the message I described the side effects as less in multitude and less severe, but I also didn't admit to as much benefit as I actually experienced--this is to maximize my chances of being allowed to up my dosage. I have no idea how he will react, because he has allowed me to use my judgement before, but he believes that the absolute msximum dosage is 90 mg, and I m not sure how he will feel about me being at this dose. Hopefully I will increase my dosage by the end of this week, however if for ehatever reason he does not consent, I will be content waiting at 75 mg for positive effects, it shouldnt make that much of a difference. Do you think it will?
> ...


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Always a good idea to have extra medication on hand even if you don't use it so I say go for obtaining the 90mg. I'd wait a while at 75mg though to get over some of the sides. I got a lot of problems as you know and I went slower than you. My sexual sides are back with a vengeance now  What brand are you using by the way?
> 
> On a side note: does anyone know which online US pharmacy has the Gavis brand?


I am on Pfizer, I wish I had started out on Gavis as more people have endorsed Gavis, but now that I've started Pfizer Indon't think it'd be a good idea to switch. Hopefully shouldn't make a difference anyway, I've heard an almost equal amount of success stories from Pfizer (greenstone). If I am prescribed 90 mg my doctor will just reduce the amount of my refill, so I wouldn't get more Nardil. Still I messaged him, and no matter what he says no harmnno foul.

Yes sexual sides are a pain, of course they would be far worse for you because you're in a relationship :b are you able to orgasm at all? I can't but certainly not for lack of trying. Also, speaking of your gf, now with your heightened social abilities are you unhappy with your gf in any way, in othrr words do you feel you could be dating someone who makes you happier? Or are you completely content in your relationship? Sorry if this question is too personal or offensive hehe.

Like I said, it might prove problematic to switch from Pfizer to Gavis, especially nlw in your treatment, when you have been experiencing such great benefits. I'm assuming you're currently on Pfizer because you're asking for a Gavis source, but maybe you just need another source. On the other hand, I think I've only heard of one case where the switch caused any problems, so you would be fine switching most likely


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Yeah I think Pfizer's (and Erfa) fine and I still am unconvinced the Gavis brand is superior. BUT, I'm coming around to that possibility from reading psychobabble and learning that Gavis has an enteric coating. Not totally interested in shifting brands but I have a way of getting a extra free prescription's worth of pills so I figure why not have the Gavis around to play with. I like to experiment. It's my way of learning about things. After all, I've been taking 2 of my pills daily sublingually to great effect, thus, so far changing administration method hasn't caused any deleterious effects. Though I am cautious. I don't want to **** anything up.

Yeah, for about 5 days now and in particular in the last 2-3 days, my libido is down the tubes. I don't even care about flirting at the moment. I tried a fairly complex experiment last night in an attempt to resolve it but it was unsuccessful. Feel free to contact me about the details. No orgasms or libido at all. I think this is a little disappointing to my girlfriend but she's patient. Yes I do realize I could get other chickadees now quite easily but when my libido _is_ there, I don't feel super deprived because my girl looks more beautiful than ever to me in those moments. We did have sex once and it was the best sex I've had in over a year, despite no orgasm. Being in this state though, while unattached would offer unbelievable possibilities so lap it up when your N kicks in which I think will happen shortly.

Am I correct in assuming you're having fine motor control issues? I was shaking a lot until fairly recently.

ps: you've really done your research.



brownjesus4566 said:


> I am on Pfizer, I wish I had started out on Gavis as more people have endorsed Gavis, but now that I've started Pfizer Indon't think it'd be a good idea to switch. Hopefully shouldn't make a difference anyway, I've heard an almost equal amount of success stories from Pfizer (greenstone). If I am prescribed 90 mg my doctor will just reduce the amount of my refill, so I wouldn't get more Nardil. Still I messaged him, and no matter what he says no harmnno foul.
> 
> Yes sexual sides are a pain, of course they would be far worse for you because you're in a relationship :b are you able to orgasm at all? I can't but certainly not for lack of trying. Also, speaking of your gf, now with your heightened social abilities are you unhappy with your gf in any way, in othrr words do you feel you could be dating someone who makes you happier? Or are you completely content in your relationship? Sorry if this question is too personal or offensive hehe.
> 
> Like I said, it might prove problematic to switch from Pfizer to Gavis, especially nlw in your treatment, when you have been experiencing such great benefits. I'm assuming you're currently on Pfizer because you're asking for a Gavis source, but maybe you just need another source. On the other hand, I think I've only heard of one case where the switch caused any problems, so you would be fine switching most likely


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Yeah I think Pfizer's (and Erfa) fine and I still am unconvinced the Gavis brand is superior. BUT, I'm coming around to that possibility from reading psychobabble and learning that Gavis has an enteric coating. Not totally interested in shifting brands but I have a way of getting a extra free prescription's worth of pills so I figure why not have the Gavis around to play with. I like to experiment. It's my way of learning about things. After all, I've been taking 2 of my pills daily sublingually to great effect, thus, so far changing administration method hasn't caused any deleterious effects. Though I am cautious. I don't want to **** anything up.
> 
> Yeah, for about 7-10 days now and in particular in the last 2-3 days, my libido is down the tubes. I don't even care about flirting at the moment. I tried a fairly complex experiment last night in an attempt to resolve it but it was unsuccessful. Feel free to contact me about the details. No orgasms or libido at all. I think this is a little disappointing to my girlfriend but she's patient. Yes I do realize I could get other chickadees now quite easily but when my libido _is_ there, I don't feel super deprived because my girl looks more beautiful than ever to me in those moments. We did have sex once and it was the best sex I've had in over a year, despite no orgasm. Being in this state though, while unattached would offer unbelievable possibilities so lap it up when your N kicks in which I think will happen shortly.
> 
> ...


I think the problem with Pfizer is the inconsistency of its batches, I came at this conclusion because people with problems on Pfizer generally have episodic periods of Nardil causing mood swings or being less effective. I'm not sure the enteric coating is the problem, but I really have no idea, I'm not sure about anything. But if I were you I'd keep taking Pfizer, if anything not to jinx my positive effects LOL.

Oh libido's down for you as well? Libido is the same for me, in fsct I'd say it's significantly higher. But I can't orgasm for the life of me. I'd sctually prefer to be in your position, if I didn't have libido maybe I wouldn't keep edging haha (nofap term). But that sucks you can't have satisfsctory sex with your gf, especially since she's bound to be more appreciative of you than ever, and this would result in a better experience for both of you. Plus I think you'r just be more proficient in general, having no physical anxiety in bed.:b I need to stop trying to be a sex coach right now

No motor control issues that I've noticed, it's possible they are subtle enugh that other side effects have overshadowed problems with motor control. Not that I'd really care haha that'd be a mild side ffect compared to what I'm going through right now. I'm so fatigued I'm falling asleep in class, and during a nap I slept through my alarm for my next class. Though it's pleasant to feel "stoned" and take naps all day, it could really start negatively impacting my academic life soon. :/

Regarding progress, I am performing much much better in groups of people I know, but I'm still not where I want to be, in terms of social sbility. And with strangers I still have no way of making ppsitive impressions and creating new relationships, which I desperately need to help me with the classes I'm falling behind in. I think MAO inhibition might be high enough to be affecting me, but I think more benefits are going to come, based on your experience. Though you say your experience was gradually, I'm pretty sure there was a point, when you were on 75 mg, where the therapeutic effects suddenly kicked in, albeit not fully. From then on I think it was gradual progress to what you feel today. But you know your own experience btter that i do, so feel free to correct me. By the way, this is a reason I want to get to 90 mg, brcause it was in this point in your experience, after you experienced some positive results on 75 mg, that you went up in dose, and got on track to schieving the phenomensl results you have now.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

*"jinx your positive effects"! (I guess it could apply to me as well lol)
*"experience was gradual" (I swear I'm making grammar mistakes without being aware of it haha, it's not like my grammar is that bad. It probably is though.)


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Rorgot to mention that I think my depression is alleviating. I felt an overwhelming desire to be more productive in the form of obtaining a job, unfortunately the reason I want money is to buy my own prescription drugs online and experiment with them haha. Still, it's some kind of improvement. Nardil truly is a great drug, no matter how much it gives you in egares to positive effects, and no matter how bad the side effects are. Even when it badely helps you, the things it helps you improve, like extraversion, motivation, and confidence, improve your life immeasurably. Already my life is markedly better than before. It really produces a noticeable difference, and it is so much better than SSRI's, I'm getting mad thinking about how doctors freely prescribe those useless drugs that just make you feel apathetic.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Interesting take on Pfizer. You could be right. But I'm still leaning towards the enteric hypothesis. I believe the net increase in effect from small intestinal absorption is around 20-25%, hence our need to be at 75-90mg (like ChopSuey as well) while mr.t and others on Gavis seem content at 60mg. Small intestinal absorption affects Nardil's pharmacokinetics by avoiding the liver and entering directly into the bloodstream. This is the main reason I've been playing around with the sublingual method--straight into the blood. BUT, I promise not to jinx you or me.  I realize you're trying to emulate my protocol.

I know all about edging LOL! I love it and I do this with my gf all the time (well, I used to) when we wanted to prolong things. Anyway, at the moment if I'm not in the mood (usually) then we just cuddle. But if we were to mess around I don't think I'd get any anxiety even if I couldn't perform at all. I don't think I can experience much anxiety at the moment. I'd just rationally explain what the problem was..."now honey...you know it's not you..." LOL! But yeah, I'd like to have my libido back that I had a few weeks ago. I was getting spontaneous erections walking around. That made me kind of swagger a bit and girls REALLY paid a lot of attention to that. They are just as horny as we are but they're subtler. They care about behavior, we care about looks.

DUDE, it sounds like you are really beginning to get improvements. Hey, if you can handle it, go up to 90mg. I would love to see your response there. Expect more OH, stumbling around and being a goofy mess. But you might not care. If you can deal with it AND get the true positives then any side is worth it in my book. I don't give a rat's *** about sides, I just want depression and SA gone. I would do anything for that, and I'm in love right now with how I feel. I can do anything. And it's been too long.

We are on the same wavelength, I can tell. You will get there and then it will be good and you can give an insanely detailed report like mine.

I use a lot of money trying to acquire interesting substances for experimentation as well. PM me and we can discuss some ideas. I'm not unwilling to share some resources. Brainstorming with like minded people is good.

And yeah, what's up with all the spelling mistakes? That's why I thought you were getting fine motor control issues. Before, you were meticulous but now your posts are littered with typos. Might be a good sign? If my spidey sense is correct I believe you're beginning to get a touch of hypomania. Fun.



brownjesus4566 said:


> I think the problem with Pfizer is the inconsistency of its batches, I came at this conclusion because people with problems on Pfizer generally have episodic periods of Nardil causing mood swings or being less effective. I'm not sure the enteric coating is the problem, but I really have no idea, I'm not sure about anything. But if I were you I'd keep taking Pfizer, if anything not to jinx my positive effects LOL.
> 
> Oh libido's down for you as well? Libido is the same for me, in fsct I'd say it's significantly higher. But I can't orgasm for the life of me. I'd sctually prefer to be in your position, if I didn't have libido maybe I wouldn't keep edging haha (nofap term). But that sucks you can't have satisfsctory sex with your gf, especially since she's bound to be more appreciative of you than ever, and this would result in a better experience for both of you. Plus I think you'r just be more proficient in general, having no physical anxiety in bed.:b I need to stop trying to be a sex coach right now
> 
> ...


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Yup, I think I am at the point you were, in regard to libido, where I'm constantly thinking about women, and edging quite a lot. Also, I keep seeing adorable girls on campus and thinking about how great it'd be to be in a relationship right now, so I could provide real value to a woman. But, if I improve a lot more, bring single will also be a blast, looking forward to some casual fun! (Not necessarily sex hahaha) But since your libido has taken a turn for the worse it's likely this could happen to me, and that would really bite. I can't tell you how sorry I am that you are providing so much social and emotional value to your gf in your nee state, but you can't enjoy yourselves physically as much as you'd like to. I really hope this se abates as soon as possible for you. Based on what I've read some kind of dopamine agonist might help you, but I'm very sure you already mnow what to try if you wanted to deal with this medically. 

I think you can tell through my posts that I am much more confident, if i'm not mistaken I am being much more lively and humorous in my posts on this thread. The remarkable thing about NArdil is that I don't feel different at all, but at the same time I realize that a huge change is taking place within me. Seriously, to hell with SSRI's and pretty much any antidepressant other than MAOI's. Based on others' accounts, Parnate seems just as effective, if not more stimulating and motivating.

You're right, I want so badly to be rid of social anxiety and depression. I have an almost obsessive desire to be the guy that others look at and say, wow he's got it all together, he is beasting at life and he's a great person to befriend and converse with. There are people like this that I know and have seen, and I can't tell you how much I envy them.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

I think I had typos throughout, and if I didn't at the beginning it was becaute I was more careful with my posts because I needed advice. Now, even when I see typos I don't go back to correct them. I'm on my phone too.

Interesting thought, the hypomania. If I remember correctly Ashwin had hypomania on his second and third week at 75 mg. that would really suck if this is just hypomania and I have to go back to what I was before, but at the same time it'd be promising, because I've heard people say that the hypomania, while great, doesn't really get rid of the social anxiety, it makes your mood so good that it overrides the social anxiety. And I think is quite possibly what I'm feeling rightnow. There's really no way to know , hopefully it all works out in the end, that's all I can really do in regards to this.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Wow, I am posting too much--I'm just really interested in my progress. Hooefully when I experience the greatest benefits I will start enjoying my own life and not feel the need to post as much. But at the same time it's really flippin fascinating, discussing this stuff, it's definitely not a waste of time.

I've started taking all 75 mg in the morning. I try to take it without food but sometimes I can't make this happen because of my schedule. I don't really feel anything different, except that my fatigue is significantly worse. I think my epresssion might be further lessened though, might be because of the weak release of neurotransmitters.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I added a bit of content to my post above, make sure you don't miss it. Hey, I appreciate your sympathy about the libido stuff. I expect it to come back though, eventually. I don't see why it wouldn't. I tried a certain dopamine and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor last night and it was sadly very useless, even at 60mg. This might be because my libido is so **** right now but more than anything I suspect it's because of its noradrenergic effect on alpha receptors. I subsequently took an alpha blocker (1mg doxazosin) which didn't antagonize that effect at all. All it did was lower my BP uncomfortably. Then I swallowed 25mg of Viagra and that lowered my BP even more. Even looking at the most horny-making porn I couldn't feel anything. I did almost faint from the PDE5i + alpha blocker combo though  So, anyway, I've ruled out Methylphenidate as a plausible curative measure. I think I need something with a purer dopaminergic effect as you suggested. We'll see how Armodafinil works, but I'll wait until my functioning improves at least a bit.

B, you are doing well. You're beginning to feel it I can see that. Don't be too hung up on specific goals. Do this: try to learn how to enjoy interacting with a person. If you can learn how to enjoy interacting with just anyone, then eventually you'll get more comfortable socially and be able to pick and choose who you want to connect with and eventually you'll be able to get the friends you want. I think the first step though is to actually be able to enjoy any kind of social interaction. This was my problem Pre-N. I just didn't like anyone because it was painful putting up my defensive front. I just wanted to get out of there. When you start to enjoy social interaction, making friends is automatic.

edit: I do think you're getting hypomania and I think that's great. Just another sign that the Nardil is working. Enjoy it. The overall effect afterwards for me dropped maybe only a point or half a point out of 10 so it's all good. I think N is working for you now. And it's also a good sign you don't care about correcting errors!

This *is* fascinating isn't it? It's all I think about. Even apart from its effect on oneself, it's amazing that this can even happen to a brain.



brownjesus4566 said:


> Yup, I think I am at the point you were, in regard to libido, where I'm constantly thinking about women, and edging quite a lot. Also, I keep seeing adorable girls on campus and thinking about how great it'd be to be in a relationship right now, so I could provide real value to a woman. But, if I improve a lot more, bring single will also be a blast, looking forward to some casual fun! (Not necessarily sex hahaha) But since your libido has taken a turn for the worse it's likely this could happen to me, and that would really bite. I can't tell you how sorry I am that you are providing so much social and emotional value to your gf in your nee state, but you can't enjoy yourselves physically as much as you'd like to. I really hope this se abates as soon as possible for you. Based on what I've read some kind of dopamine agonist might help you, but I'm very sure you already mnow what to try if you wanted to deal with this medically.
> 
> I think you can tell through my posts that I am much more confident, if i'm not mistaken I am being much more lively and humorous in my posts on this thread. The remarkable thing about NArdil is that I don't feel different at all, but at the same time I realize that a huge change is taking place within me. Seriously, to hell with SSRI's and pretty much any antidepressant other than MAOI's. Based on others' accounts, Parnate seems just as effective, if not more stimulating and motivating.
> 
> You're right, I want so badly to be rid of social anxiety and depression. I have an almost obsessive desire to be the guy that others look at and say, wow he's got it all together, he is beasting at life and he's a great person to befriend and converse with. There are people like this that I know and have seen, and I can't tell you how much I envy them.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> I added a bit of content to my post above, make sure you don't miss it. Hey, I appreciate your sympathy about the libido stuff. I expect it to come back though, eventually. I don't see why it wouldn't. I tried a certain dopamine and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor last night and it was sadly very useless, even at 60mg. This might be because my libido is so **** right now but more than anything I suspect it's because of the noradrenergic effect on alpha receptors. I subsequently took an alpha blocker which didn't help at all. All it did was lower my BP uncomfortably. Then I swallowed 25mg of Viagra and that lowered my BP even more. Even looking at the most horny-making porn I couldn't feel anything. I did almost faint from the PDE5i + alpha blocker combo though  So, anyway, I've ruled out Methylphenidate as a plausible curative measure. I think I need something with a purer dopaminergic effect as you suggested. We'll see how Armodafinil works, but I'll wait until my functioning improves at least a bit.
> 
> B, you are doing well. You're beginning to feel it I can see that. Don't be too hung up on specific goals. Do this: try to learn how to enjoy interacting with a person. If you can learn how to enjoy interacting with just anyone, then eventually you'll get more comfortable socially and be able to pick and choose who you want to connect with and eventually you'll be able to get the friends you want. I think the first step though is to actually be able to enjoy any kind of social interaction. This was my problem Pre-N. I just didn't like anyone because it was painful putting up my defensive front. I just wanted to get out of there. When you start to enjoy social interaction, making friends is automatic.
> 
> edit: I do think you're getting hypomania and I think that's great. Just another sign that the Nardil is working. Enjoy it. The overall effect afterwards for me drops maybe only a point or half a point out of 10 so it's all good. I think N is working for you. And it's also a good sign you don't care about correcting errors!


Yeah, sounds like sexual problems are your biggest side, with insomnia being a close second, so I really hope you are able to function again asap. Sorry about the medication fiasco haha sounds tough. I really dont think I need to give you any advice on medications for this, you know a lot more about pharmacology. However, I'll be here to provide support!

I think I enjoy successful social interaction, I always have, but it occurred so rarely for me, and usually under the influence of drugs like alcohol, adderall, and to an extent phenibut. (Btw the first time I took phenibut was the most unpredictable, most unusual drug experience of my life, I'll post a link to a thread I made clamoring for help after I overdosed and had the weirdest hangover of my life. After that experience, phenibut becsme more and more unoredictable, to the point where I had no idea if it would work and to what extent it would work before I took it. Weird drug.) I think you're right, I need to put myself out there and start talking to more people, Nardil ain't going to do all the heavy lifting. I still don't feel ready, but there will be an opportunity this Thursday to mingle with fellow classmates, and I should try to make thr most of it.

LOL if this is hypomania, it's certainly not very strong. I was expecting hypomania to be like a state in which I had utmost confidence at every turn, and felt I could do no wrong. But, if you're confident there is hypomania incolved, there probably is. I always thought of hypomania of Nardil as a period well before therapeutic effects, that lasts an unpredictable amountof time, and that will eventually completely cease and I would go back to normal for at least a fee weeks, at the least, before the real effects of Nardil set in. Is it possiblr to grt hypomania rigt beforr the therapeutic effects, or do you think that the hypomania is part of the positive effects, and it will eventually disspate leacing the true effects of Nardil. I'm a bit confused about hypomania, does it refer to any state of unusual happiness and well being, or does it refer to a lefitimsfe state of drug use that might be a sid ffect. Not sure if i'm getting my question accross.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Crazy traumatic phenibut experience, I thought I went insane for a week. It waasnterrifying when it was happening but now looking back it was kind of ridiculous and funny 

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/696429-Took-Too-Much-Phenibut

Not Sure if you need an account to read it.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks for being there for me B, it really means a lot. I value friendship.

Hypomania is a state of enhanced mood, concentration and vigilance. Interest in things becomes enhanced and you're generally very happy and outgoing. I may have overestimated your condition, but I'm getting from your posting frequency and apparent arousal level that you enjoy socializing a lot right now, even if just on a forum. So I'd call it mild hypomania. When true hypomania sets in you'll _probably_ know it. For me, I experienced hypnophobia (fear of sleeping) and a desire to be constantly stimulated and do stuff. Enhanced happiness and increased desire to socialize were certainly components of it for me. Though I'd say I never really got powerful hypomania. Just sort of a mild general arousal and extra desire to post or be engaged in life. I didn't get all weird and touchy-feely with people. My mood was more at an 8/10 level instead of my current 7-7.5/10.

I can relate to your Phenibut experience in a sense. I was addicted to GHB for a few years. GHB has been compared to P but it probably has more abuse potential. It made me super social but also carried many, many negatives. Super pro-sexual as well. It's a GABA sort of a compound but it's really "weird". Maybe like your Phenibut. Got some super strange dreams and panic attacks from it but also very powerful social relief. Alas, it had way too much abuse potential.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

True, true, yeah, I'm definitely experiencing some of what you mentioned, like enhanced mood and desire to post more, so it could definitely be mild hypomnia. I still feel scared to socialize in person, currently I'm actually feeling agoraphobic, scared to go out of my room. But I have been productive today with my academics. Could be mild hypomania.

And no problem lol, you're a very insightful and tactful person and I enjoy your correspondences, you seem like the kind of person who would hsve a lot of friends and a huge social network. I thnk you mentioned you weren't really looking to expand your social network right now, I definitely think you should considerworking towards this, if you're not. Well, in your chrrent state, it wouldn't even be work.

About the sexual side effect, I think I have a solution that has he potential to be really efficacious. Talking about phenibut reminded me of its amazing sexual edfects, and I remembered that when I took it, I would spend hours masturbating and really enjoying it (sorry for graphic description). I believe this has to do with its dopamine effects, but it must be something beyond this as well, because it is really great for sexual performance. I found this thread that largely correlates with my experience on phenibut, I think you should check it out. If you need any phenibut for any reason I have about 10 grams left, but its lretty inexpensive and I think you'd want to buy it fr yourself. Let me know if pheibut interests you, I really think it could work: http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/9244-phenibut-sexual-sides


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Phenibut huh? Could be like GHB which was genius for sex. I think you have a convert. I will be trying this out. Good suggestion, thanks.

Oh, I was getting the avoidance thing initially as well. Let me describe it a bit. It was kind of weird because I did feel more social and more energized with less depression, but I didn't really want to go out. No, it wasn't a horrific notion but I felt a certain reluctance or even avoidance. I think I was getting too much pleasure staying in my own little homey microcosm. But at a certain point, this broke and I felt okay going out. I love to shop now, so I go to malls or chinatown and peruse all the little items with great interest whereas before all that **** seemed so dull. And I just talk to whoever I see, provided they seem like interacting. You see, I've got not only general outgoingness now but genuine social intelligence. I can tell immediately if someone doesn't want to interact and so I leave them alone. What's interesting here is that those people who don't want to interact used to be me. I think this is why I used to struggle. I always appeared to not want to interact! So all the socially intelligent people wouldn't bother engaging me. Booooooring.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

There's a sample of androgel (topical testosterone) sitting in the little room where the doctor monitors my BP. I'm considering just grabbing it next time I'm there alone. Each bottle is 60 doses. I think there are two bottles in that box. "Did you take that androgel Michael?". "Uh, yeah, I saw it by the samples bin. Thought I could just grab it, sorry."


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Phenibut huh? Could be like GHB which was genius for sex. I think you have a convert. I will be trying this out. Good suggestion, thanks.
> 
> Oh, I was getting the avoidance thing initially as well. Let me describe it a bit. It was kind of weird because I did feel more social and more energized with less depression, but I didn't really want to go out. No, it wasn't a horrific notion but I felt a certain reluctance or even avoidance. I think I was getting too much pleasure staying in my own little homey microcosm. But at a certain point, this broke and I felt okay going out. I love to shop now, so I go to malls or chinatown and peruse all the little items with great interest whereas before all that **** seemed so dull. And I just talk to whoever I see, provided they seem like interacting. You see, I've got not only general outgoingness now but genuine social intelligence. I can tell immediately if someone doesn't want to interact and so I leave them alone. What's interesting here is that those people who don't want to interact used to be me. I think this is why I used to struggle. I always appeared to not want to interact! So all the socially intelligent people wouldn't bother engaging me. Booooooring.


No problem, let me know how it goes. I'd try to buy as pure phenibut as possible, I think the brand that I have is not great quality. It's possible that this is why I get such unpredictable effects from it.

Yeah, hopefully the agoraphobic thing subsides, I really don't feel like stepping out even to eat. I definitely give off a vibe of not wanting to socialize, I usually have a scowl on my face and body language that suggests I do not want to interact. I think this is a defense mechanism, and I was hoping Nardil would help me make significant progress towards fixing this. I have tried to change this vibe but I find it very unnatural to do. If Nardil gives me more social intelligence, that would be very useful, looking forward to this potentially.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

brownjesus4566 said:


> No problem, let me know how it goes. I'd try to buy as pure phenibut as possible, I think the brand that I have is not great quality. It's possible that this is why I get such unpredictable effects from it.
> 
> Yeah, hopefully the agoraphobic thing subsides, I really don't feel like stepping out even to eat. I definitely give off a vibe of not wanting to socialize, I usually have a scowl on my face and body language that suggests I do not want to interact. I think this is a defense mechanism, and I was hoping Nardil would help me make significant progress towards fixing this. I have tried to change this vibe but I find it very unnatural to do. If Nardil gives me more social intelligence, that would be very useful, looking forward to this potentially.


Hey nardil buds  I'm amazed at the progress we're all making on this med, it really is a thing of beauty. Strangely enough, I'm finding that 45mg _without_ add-ons like Lyrica is actually making me feel at least 60% better than I was previously at 60mg or 75mg while still retaining full pro-social/anxiolytic benefits..! I think it's due to the fact that I'm still getting great boost in dopamine with dosing all at once in the AM on an empty stomach & keeping MAO inhibited at the same level while also getting rid of the insanely limiting hypotension or fatigue/lethargy I experienced. While I can't necessarily advise this dropping of dose in everyone's case obviously, just thought I'd share that it's currently been working for me to great benefit. In fact i think I may have some minor transient euphoria from dropping dose which is odd.. I've been on Nardil since November 1st, 2013 fyi, and it's my 2nd time attempting long term phenelzine therapy total. Not that it makes a difference for sure but I take Gavis brand as well

Regarding *Phenibut:* absolutely f'ing love this drug!! I used it all the time back in Late Winter/Early Spring of 2013 for social anxiety & general anxiety when I was making some moves on various lady folk lol and it is indeed not just some "legal supplement", make no mistake, dosing needs to be extremely responsible and breaks should be taken for sure (it's actually a prescription drug in Russia where it was first synthesized).

I've never tried GHB myself (if it's okay with Nardil I just might sometime soon), but I have no doubt that the two could certainly be related in chemical structure or some other way because from the effects you describe (pro-sociability, greatly increased social & emotional intelligence, pro-sexuality, euphoria, music sounds amazing) it hits Phenibut on the head nearly 100%. With Nardil, I'll wager it would make you feel damn near invincible  but because it's dopaminergic to some extent I would say be cautious with it and start low on dose. Also, here's the other thing: although it makes you horny as hell I find it actually makes 'finishing the deed' harder lol.. so it might not be a great solution for anorgasmia.

OH and P.S. brownjesus, if you have true high-quality pure Phenibut it shouldn't take more than about a gram to a gram and a half to get you feelin' goood, and it'll taste extremely bitter hahah.. I like to mix it in some orange juice and drink it down that way


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> There's a sample of androgel (topical testosterone) sitting in the little room where the doctor monitors my BP. I'm considering just grabbing it next time I'm there alone. Each bottle is 60 doses. I think there are two bottles in that box. "Did you take that androgel Michael?". "Uh, yeah, I saw it by the samples bin. Thought I could just grab it, sorry."


"NO MORE NARDIL FOR YOU!!!"


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

My phenibut tastes really sour, I mix it w/ oj as well when i can. It is definitely the strongest and most effective legal drug that you can buy, and to put things in perspective every time I have used phenibut, I have become addicted, used it too frequently, had its effects pretty much stop working, and have to go through serious withdrawal symptoms once I realized what I had done. And I don't even have a particularly addictive personality, at least in my opinion. Tolerance occurs extremely fast. Both phenibut and GHB act on GABA-B, so there are definite similarities. I've read at least one experience claiming with Nardil phenibut makes you a complete beast, so I might indulge once Nardil starts paying off: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/nardil-experiences-542505/ When I bought my phenibut I had read that it was extremely high quality (Liftmode brand), but I later found out it was nowhere near the best. This might be why it wasn't as great for me as for other people, I didn't really feel as great and anxiety free as you did.

Now back to Nardil Lol. Today, I took 75 mg at once at around 7:30 am, half an hour before eating breakfast, and at around 8:30 am I experienced the greatest buzz I had ever gotten from Nardil. The top of my head was buzzing (probably from neurotransmitters, I think Chop told me this in another thread), I felt a great body high, and this caused my mood to be amazing. I would compare it to the body high of ecstasy, and it was nearly as strong as a regular dose of ecstasy. It had no effect on anxiety, and the disappointing thing was it vanished after 20 minutes. I had experienced this exact thing once before after taking Nardil, but it was about half as strong. Have any of you guys experienced this, and was it as fleeting?


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## HeavyweightSoul (Jul 24, 2012)

GiftofGABA said:


> I can tell immediately if someone doesn't want to interact and so I leave them alone. What's interesting here is that those people who don't want to interact used to be me. I think this is why I used to struggle. I always appeared to not want to interact! So all the socially intelligent people wouldn't bother engaging me. Booooooring.


This is a very intelligent observation. As people with social anxiety, we tend to give off an anti-social, "stay away from me" vibe to the people surrounding us causing them to avoid us and causing us to feel and be more isolated. It's great that this drug is opening your eyes to this so that you can notice it and STOP turning people off to you.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

HeavyweightSoul said:


> This is a very intelligent observation. As people with social anxiety, we tend to give off an anti-social, "stay away from me" vibe to the people surrounding us causing them to avoid us and causing us to feel and be more isolated. It's great that this drug is opening your eyes to this so that you can notice it and STOP turning people off to you.


It's really a vicious cycle, we as sa sufferers give off this vibe even though we are dying for human interaction, and this vibe makes it even rarer in our lives. I think giftofgaba is now at the point where he regularly engages in positive, successful social interaction with people who don't give off this vibe, that's what he was trying to convey. G of G, I'd like to add that since you've experienced such powerful remission, you might want to add to your good karma by taking a chance and interacting with these people who seem like they don't want to talk to anyone; it's possible that they actually want to be left alone, but it is much more likely they are suffering from sa as we all do. You might offer them a brief reprieve from their relative misery, and I've noticed that when I am particularly afflicted by SA and lack of human interaction, I tend to be extremely grateful and welcoming to people I actually do interact with, so I think by engaging these people and creating the positive social experiences that you are now capable of with them, you could acquire some seriously strong alliances. But considering what I already know about you and your personality, I am sure you are already doing this. So keep it up!


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Wow, I am definitely hypomanic. This is really amazing. I am having great convos left and right. I really hope this is the true effect of Nardil and not a side effect thing. If this is Nardil, my life will never be the same. God damn.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

And ifit's not Nardil, I will be seriously depressed when it wears off. I'll need all the support I can get, lol.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm posting way too much, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this. This amazing feeling started when I was walking to the bookstore, and it never subsided. I don't want to compare an antidepressant to a drug like Adderall or MDMA, but this feels like a combination of the best things of each drug's feeling. Without the negatives. Please oh please let this not be hypomania that will subside severely. I know it will subside a bit, as it did for giftofgaba, but I'm seriously hoping this is Nardil and not a side effect. Lol, if anyone is on the forum right now, feel free to help me out.


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## loneliness (Oct 3, 2013)

I wish I could try this drug but anything that even remotely exacerbates insomnia would be a disaster for me. :blank

Also to the fella above me I'm not sure why you'd want hypomania to be a constant effect of a drug.. It's a nice feeling once in a while but if you're hypomanic all the time it tends to be a disaster.


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## HeavyweightSoul (Jul 24, 2012)

brownjesus4566 said:


> Wow, I am definitely hypomanic. This is really amazing. I am having great convos left and right. I really hope this is the true effect of Nardil and not a side effect thing. If this is Nardil, my life will never be the same. God damn.


How long have you been taking Nardil and at what doses?


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

YES! :yay This is how it went for me. I was praying to god (I'm an atheist) that this was not a temporary state. First hypomania with about an 8/10 effect on mood and SA then a slight deflation where things went to a totally cool and reasonable 7-7.5/10. I'm feeling great and I'm hoping for you that you get the same pattern. But I'd say things are definitely looking up for you. I couldn't be happier for you! How long are these convos lasting? I went from zero 5 minute conversations per week to 10-15 convos in no time flat.



brownjesus4566 said:


> Wow, I am definitely hypomanic. This is really amazing. I am having great convos left and right. I really hope this is the true effect of Nardil and not a side effect thing. If this is Nardil, my life will never be the same. God damn.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I knew you were getting hypomania. Totally normal and great. The deflation I got was pretty subtle and easy to handle--no big come down. Nardil is a gift from the gods isn't it? Clarity and freedom and the ability to move about as a free entity unsmothered by any self-doubt or hesitation. Pure existing. Blissful even. My mind is calm and quiet. I am truly gratified to have some company with someone experiencing this state.



brownjesus4566 said:


> I'm posting way too much, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this. This amazing feeling started when I was walking to the bookstore, and it never subsided. I don't want to compare an antidepressant to a drug like Adderall or MDMA, but this feels like a combination of the best things of each drug's feeling. Without the negatives. Please oh please let this not be hypomania that will subside severely. I know it will subside a bit, as it did for giftofgaba, but I'm seriously hoping this is Nardil and not a side effect. Lol, if anyone is on the forum right now, feel free to help me out.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> I knew you were getting hypomania. Totally normal and great. The deflation I got was pretty subtle and easy to handle--no big come down. Nardil is a gift from the gods isn't it? Clarity and freedom and the ability to move about as a free entity unsmothered by any self-doubt or hesitation. Pure existing. Blissful even. My mind is calm and quiet. I am truly gratified to have some company with someone experiencing this state.


Oh definitely. It's truly amazing. I wouldnT say my mind is clear though. It's really similar to amphetamine and mdma, so that's why i'm worried its a hypomania side effect. It's actually not that similar to your and Ashwin's experiences, but it definitely has some similar aspects to it. Dw, I'll analyze it later, but for now I have so much to do!!! Haha


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Well, I got no abatement of sexual sides from the MPH even at a high dose, but I did like its effect on my mood and it had few side effects that night or the day after, so I've just now ordered 1 gram of pure ethylphenidate. I will try it out for sexual purposes since it has a threefold greater selectivity for dopamine reuptake vs. norepinephrine vs MPH. I believe it was the NE agonism at alpha receptors that caused MPH's uselessness sexually. I tried correcting with an alpha blocker with no effect other than an unpleasantly low hypotension. Then I added a PDE5i which made things worse. I will also use the EPH for occasional recreational purposes and mood enhancement if the side effects are limited.

In addition, I ordered 3 grams of armodafinil. Trialling these substances will constitute my next effort at mitigating Nardil induced sexual sides. If these fail then I will trial low dose Phenibut.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Sounds great! Do you plan on going back up to 60mg at any point or do you think 45mg might be your sweet spot? I'm still trying to source Gavis online.

I'm pretty sure you're good to go with GHB and Nardil, but I have to warn you, it is extremely addictive. Highly pro-sexual and pro-social though. And dosing is VERY hard to get right. Where 1.5 grams makes you feel like god, 2 grams might make you pass out uncontrollably. I'm talking like, in the middle of weightlifting or any context whatsoever. I wasted 2-3 years of my life addicted to GHB and trying to get the dosing right but it was ultimately impossible and caused me a lot of suffering. I ended up dumping 3/4 of a gallon of GBL (direct precursor to GHB) down the toilet. That's like 2000 doses. :doh

Due to its similarities with GHB I'm therefore very cautious about Phenibut, but I'm willing to give it a whirl because I really need these sexual issues resolved.



hworth said:


> Hey nardil buds  I'm amazed at the progress we're all making on this med, it really is a thing of beauty. Strangely enough, I'm finding that 45mg _without_ add-ons like Lyrica is actually making me feel at least 60% better than I was previously at 60mg or 75mg while still retaining full pro-social/anxiolytic benefits..! I think it's due to the fact that I'm still getting great boost in dopamine with dosing all at once in the AM on an empty stomach & keeping MAO inhibited at the same level while also getting rid of the insanely limiting hypotension or fatigue/lethargy I experienced. While I can't necessarily advise this dropping of dose in everyone's case obviously, just thought I'd share that it's currently been working for me to great benefit. In fact i think I may have some minor transient euphoria from dropping dose which is odd.. I've been on Nardil since November 1st, 2013 fyi, and it's my 2nd time attempting long term phenelzine therapy total. Not that it makes a difference for sure but I take Gavis brand as well
> 
> Regarding *Phenibut:* absolutely f'ing love this drug!! I used it all the time back in Late Winter/Early Spring of 2013 for social anxiety & general anxiety when I was making some moves on various lady folk lol and it is indeed not just some "legal supplement", make no mistake, dosing needs to be extremely responsible and breaks should be taken for sure (it's actually a prescription drug in Russia where it was first synthesized).
> 
> ...


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

loneliness said:


> I wish I could try this drug but anything that even remotely exacerbates insomnia would be a disaster for me. :blank
> 
> Also to the fella above me I'm not sure why you'd want hypomania to be a constant effect of a drug.. It's a nice feeling once in a while but if you're hypomanic all the time it tends to be a disaster.


I'm thinking you're right. It is insanely fun but I'm having too much fun talking to people to focus on my studies. If Nardil is much like this, this will continue to be a problem so I'm going to have to work towards not getting distracted. Can't help but think about how Ashwin got hypomania in his second and third week and how it totally faded after a week. Of course, the final results he had with Nardil were better than hypomania, in most ways, but it took him another three or four weeks.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

giftofgaba, how long did your hypomania last? Well i wouldn't say hypomania, because afterwards you only went down a bit in mood and soxiability, but yeah how long did it last?


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> YES! :yay This is how it went for me. I was praying to god (I'm an atheist) that this was not a temporary state. First hypomania with about an 8/10 effect on mood and SA then a slight deflation where things went to a totally cool and reasonable 7-7.5/10. I'm feeling great and I'm hoping for you that you get the same pattern. But I'd say things are definitely looking up for you. I couldn't be happier for you! How long are these convos lasting? I went from zero 5 minute conversations per week to 10-15 convos in no time flat.


And, I really don't know, I'm really conversing for as long as I want. It's great. My only concern is that I'm seem so confident that I think it's somewhat off putting to the people I talk to, but overall it's leagues better than how I interacted before, and I already have gotten two or three compliments on my personality. My sense of humor is so much better, I'm making jokes I din't even know I could make. And lastly, but certainly not least, talking to girls!! God damn. It's so fun, to create rapport and attraction, or if I don't feel like it, to make a valuable new girl friend. Like the humor thing, I"m using conversation techniques and seduction strategies (LOL) that I had no idea were in me. It's great. Did I say that already? Well it is, if this is consistent, Nardil is the greatest thing on planet earth.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Looking back I'd say 5-10 days give or take. Some people get it longer like several weeks+

Yeah, and it's interesting how Nardil "teaches" you isn't it? It's like it contains the universal instruction set on how to be socially intelligent. Gradually I've gone from a bit over outgoing to being able to pick up on subtler cues and use them intelligently so that I read as simply outgoing and friendly but more normal.



brownjesus4566 said:


> giftofgaba, how long did your hypomania last? Well i wouldn't say hypomania, because afterwards you only went down a bit in mood and soxiability, but yeah how long did it last?


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> Looking back I'd say 5-10 days give or take. Some people get it longer like several weeks+
> 
> Yeah, and it's interesting how Nardil "teaches" you isn't it? It's like it contains the universal instruction set on how to be socially intelligent. Gradually I've gone from a bit over outgoing to being able to pick up on subtler cues and use them intelligently so that I read as simply outgoing and friendly but more normal.


Exactly right. It really is a miracle. And, I think I mentioned this, but about an hour after taking the full 75 mg dose, I get this beautiful body high, actually it's like a head buzz, and it actually is very strong. Great stufd. Myhead feels tingly, in a great way, and my mood skyrockets. It's a little distracting, how good it is, and I guess I could do without it, though it feels awesome. It only lasts half an hour to an hour, wish it lasted longer, it makes lectures much more interesting, and in some ways it actually helps me focus and concentrate, since I'm feeling so good, I can completely focus on academics without gettinf boredZ. Wondering if you experience this, I've heard about it from Chop. Wish it lasted longer, but I guess it's a good thing it wears off, because the body high isn't that important to me, it's far less important than the boost in confidence and sociability that Nardil also gives, lasting the whole day. But yeah, it's good stuff. Nardil ftw, I'm having some of the best days of my life, I'm proud of myself for doing really extensive research and putting in the effort to get prescribed this drug.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

What you're describing sounds a lot like mild hypertension. Do you get a headache at all when it happens? Can you feel it in your chest area, like a frisson, an excitement? That's what I was getting. I kind of liked it yeah. If you happen to be near a drug store with one of those BP machines, use it and find out what your BP is when it's happening.

And yeah Nardil buddy, you should be very proud of yourself. Few people have the kind of mental fortitude to trial Nardil and jump through hoops to get it, let alone research the **** out of it to maximize its potential. Enjoy your day 



brownjesus4566 said:


> Exactly right. It really is a miracle. And, I think I mentioned this, but about an hour after taking the full 75 mg dose, I get this beautiful body high, actually it's like a head buzz, and it actually is very strong. Great stufd. Myhead feels tingly, in a great way, and my mood skyrockets. It's a little distracting, how good it is, and I guess I could do without it, though it feels awesome. It only lasts half an hour to an hour, wish it lasted longer, it makes lectures much more interesting, and in some ways it actually helps me focus and concentrate, since I'm feeling so good, I can completely focus on academics without gettinf boredZ. Wondering if you experience this...
> 
> I'm proud of myself for doing really extensive research and putting in the effort to get prescribed this drug.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> What you're describing sounds a lot like mild hypertension. Do you get a headache at all when it happens? Can you feel it in your chest area, like a frisson, an excitement? That's what I was getting. I kind of liked it yeah. If you happen to be near a drug store with one of those BP machines, use it and find out what your BP is when it's happening.
> 
> And yeah Nardil buddy, you should be very proud of yourself. Few people have the kind of mental fortitude to trial Nardil and jump through hoops to get it, let alone research the **** out of it to maximize its potential. Enjoy your day


You know, it could be. But I'm pretty sure the head tingling thing is neurotransmitters, at least that's what chop suey told me. I'm pretty sure hypotension doesn't make you feel really good though. No headache, and no chest excitement really. But yeah it's a definite possibility. Yeah I actually doubt it though, it could be the GABA being sctivated, plus the mild release of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine that happens when you dose Nardil. I really enjoy dosing all at once thoughh, without a meal, and I don't get the debilitating hypertension you did.

Yup, I'm proud of myself, but I also realize I'm really lucky to find Nardil. Many people go through life w/ SA and depression without finding such a great solution. I'll try to spread the word as much as possible, so more people can experience this amazing solution. I will enjoy my day, I'm planning to start convos in my philosophy class, there are some real cute wuality girls there unlike my cs classes. Looking forward to a great day full of great social experiences, and I hope you enjoy yours as well!


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

I really don't want to keep spamming with posts about what i'm up to, but I'm having coffe with my ex! We ran into each other at the cafe and we're catching up. She's in a relationship but i don't even care lol its just so great. nardillll


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## fineline (Oct 21, 2011)

i couldnt find where you say who your doctor is.

are you just buying your nardil online without the supervision of a doctor?


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

^ are you asking me?


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## fineline (Oct 21, 2011)

brownjesus4566 said:


> ^ are you asking me?


no. im asking the original poster. the thread starter.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

allornothing said:


> no. im asking the original poster. the thread starter.


i see, yup that makes more sense


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

It's a bit scary how confident I am, I am starting conversations left and right with people I lost touch with, both online and in person. I went to many club meetings and fraternity rush events, I felt far more comfortable at the former, Nardil isn't powerful enough to teach me how to interact with those guys. I can totslly relate g of g's feeling of indifference at being rejected; it's happened a few times, especially at the previously mentioned philosophy class, but I am marginally affected by rejections, rejection sensitivity, a debilitating symptom of atypical depression, is in full remission. I'm moderately worried that my relatively unrefined social skills, resulting probably from years of lack of practice, might be somewhat annoying people, but that my confidence is preventing them from sqying anything about it. If true, I'd probably never find out--people are reqlly averse to rejecting friendly social encounters, no matter how crueely exexuted they might be. Anyway, that's my spiel. My experiences bear a strikijg resemblance to G of G's, with small differences--I believe I've seen less of an improvement in social skills, but more of an improvement in general confidence. Correct me if I'm wrong, Gift!


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Oh yeah, and sides. Orthostatic hypotension - damn, this is powerful. I'm sure you all know what this is like at it's worst, and it's at it's worst for me, if not more debilitating than that. Practically faint most times I change positions, can't hear for a full minute, more annoying physical problems--I haven't actually fainted yet, so never mind, I guess it's not as bad as it could have been. Actually, yeah, it's quite simple to deal with, and really doesn't alarm me. Like most Nardil users, I've found ways to work around it, and prevent it from happening in the first place, whenever I can.
No fatigue, probably a result of hypomania. Nothing much more to say here. Oh yeah, in addition my energy levels are through the freaking roof. I've never been this energetic, not even on high doses of adderall, and amazingly Nardil energy barely wears off--at the end of the day, before my next dose, it wears off a bit.
Insomnia, also probably a result of hypomania. 4-6 hours of sleep a night, but wake up more refreshed than ever, for once I don't have any problems waking up in the a.m., which is frankly incredible.
Constipation is really powerful and annoying, and I haven't found a workaround. I spend twice as much time in the stall, and bowel movements are moderately painful. Again, I can deal with this stuff, though I will say that ut seems like my sides are at an all time high, both in multitude and intensity.
Urinary retension is consistently as bad as the first time it happened, when I was at my wit's praying I wouldn't need to use a catheter, an understandable fear of mine. But, workaround, I am able to urinate whenever having a bowel movement or taking a shower, and usually not at other times when I try just to urinate. This works in parallel with my constipation, as I spend more time in the bathroom, enabling me to use this time to urinate. Regardless, i am slightly uncomfortable feeling like urinating more than usual throughout the day. Not a big problem though.
Damn, I'm realizing just how many of these side effects I have developed, both common and rare. Let me attempt to name all that I didnt yet. Chills, generally feeling cold, shaking in limbs, making it hard for me to climb stairs, difficulty breathing at random times, loud and fast speech (not reallly a side, prob hypomania), serious love for caffeine and nictoine (gum, don't smoke), loss of appetite (probably from the csffeine and nicotine usage, but it's consistent so i doubt it), and smelly, frequent, pungent gas (sorry to end on that graphic notes).

So yeah, my experience with side effects when Nardil takes effect, hope this will help someone either now or in the future!


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## arishorts (Aug 8, 2013)

I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread, but it sounds like all of you are experiencing astounding results. I'd love to join the study  For now, i'm on fluvoxamine and hoping to stick it out a full two months to a dosage of 100mg. Good luck to you.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

arishorts said:


> I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread, but it sounds like all of you are experiencing astounding results. I'd love to join the study  For now, i'm on fluvoxamine and hoping to stick it out a full two months to a dosage of 100mg. Good luck to you.


Thanks for the support, arishorts. I think you should really read through the thread; it really gave me invaluable information, not just about Nardil. Gift of Gaba is an amazingly insightful and proficient writer; I have so much to thank him for. I seriously want to meet you in person to thank you for your information, encouragement, and support, what part of America do you live in? Please tell me it's the SF Bay Area! Arishorts, reading the thread, you'll see how Nardil changes lives infinitely for the better--and now it's done the same for me. Researching, getting prescribed, and taking Nardil (Phenelzine) was the best decision of my life--of course I've only been experiencing amazing benefits for 3 days, so I'm praying Nardil keeps working--and my ultimate goal on this thread, a goal that I've recently attained, is to spread as much good word about this medication as possible, and to get as many SA and depression sufferers on this miraculous, briliant medication as possible. I think that's a goal of GiftofGaba's as well, though I think he's focusing more on articulating and detailing his specific experience with Nardil and it's benefits, also a worthy goal. So any questions, I'd really love to answer, as well as offer support and encouragement---i should probably start another thread, I've kinda hijacked G of G's thread (sorry about that, GofG ). Anyway, yeah. Nardil's freaking brilliant, at least so far for me, and I have high expectations and I'm pretty sure the crazily positive effects will stick.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGaba, where are you man? Having too much fun socializing to help people out with Nard? LOL jkjk man you've helped out so much already, take a break, I'll take it from here.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Not at all. Here is his business card:












allornothing said:


> i couldnt find where you say who your doctor is.
> 
> are you just buying your nardil online without the supervision of a doctor?


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Man, this sounds really, really good. The social skills will come when you pick up on what works and what doesn't and the euphoria dies down just a little. For now your experience, yes it does parallel mine a whole lot. And it sounds damn fun! You seem more eager to immerse yourself in group stuff whereas I'm still more of a lone wolf but wholly capable of interacting where and how I please.



brownjesus4566 said:


> It's a bit scary how confident I am, I am starting conversations left and right with people I lost touch with, both online and in person. I went to many club meetings and fraternity rush events, I felt far more comfortable at the former, Nardil isn't powerful enough to teach me how to interact with those guys. I can totslly relate g of g's feeling of indifference at being rejected; it's happened a few times, especially at the previously mentioned philosophy class, but I am marginally affected by rejections, rejection sensitivity, a debilitating symptom of atypical depression, is in full remission. I'm moderately worried that my relatively unrefined social skills, resulting probably from years of lack of practice, might be somewhat annoying people, but that my confidence is preventing them from sqying anything about it. If true, I'd probably never find out--people are reqlly averse to rejecting friendly social encounters, no matter how crueely exexuted they might be. Anyway, that's my spiel. My experiences bear a strikijg resemblance to G of G's, with small differences--I believe I've seen less of an improvement in social skills, but more of an improvement in general confidence. Correct me if I'm wrong, Gift!


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Yes, yes, yes. I experienced all of this except the urinary retention and constipation. No idea why I haven't had trouble with the latter as all I'm eating is junk and no fiber, but I go twice a day like clockwork.

The hypotension is troublesome but again, it parallels what I experienced to a T. Never fainted but felt very wobbly, lightheaded, couldn't hear. Mostly dealt with by finding the right position to be in, sitting down in a chair or on the floor, and the underrated drinking salt water. No fatigue with powerful energy and motivation throughout the day on little sleep, check. Accompanied by body weakness making it difficult to climb stairs, check. Cold sensitivity, check. This has been extreme at times. Cold water is torture. Great pleasure from caffeine and nicotine, check. Your sleep is quite good. 4-6 hours is favorable for sure.

As a side note:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihypotensive_agent

I've tried hydrocortisone (5mg). It does help some.



brownjesus4566 said:


> Oh yeah, and sides. Orthostatic hypotension - damn, this is powerful. I'm sure you all know what this is like at it's worst, and it's at it's worst for me, if not more debilitating than that. Practically faint most times I change positions, can't hear for a full minute, more annoying physical problems--I haven't actually fainted yet, so never mind, I guess it's not as bad as it could have been. Actually, yeah, it's quite simple to deal with, and really doesn't alarm me. Like most Nardil users, I've found ways to work around it, and prevent it from happening in the first place, whenever I can.
> No fatigue, probably a result of hypomania. Nothing much more to say here. Oh yeah, in addition my energy levels are through the freaking roof. I've never been this energetic, not even on high doses of adderall, and amazingly Nardil energy barely wears off--at the end of the day, before my next dose, it wears off a bit.
> Insomnia, also probably a result of hypomania. 4-6 hours of sleep a night, but wake up more refreshed than ever, for once I don't have any problems waking up in the a.m., which is frankly incredible.
> Constipation is really powerful and annoying, and I haven't found a workaround. I spend twice as much time in the stall, and bowel movements are moderately painful. Again, I can deal with this stuff, though I will say that ut seems like my sides are at an all time high, both in multitude and intensity.
> ...


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks arishorts and welcome.



arishorts said:


> I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread, but it sounds like all of you are experiencing astounding results. I'd love to join the study  For now, i'm on fluvoxamine and hoping to stick it out a full two months to a dosage of 100mg. Good luck to you.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Nah, you're totally welcome here B. Your contributions to this thread have been extremely valuable and a lot of very useful information is getting consolidated here. Our goals are indeed parallel and please feel free to interject as much as you see fit. I would really love to meet you as well; I think we're very like-minded. I'm in Canada unfortunately but I LOVE the Bay area--a true enclave of civilization--and it's quite possible that I could be visiting there sometime in the next year or two. You'd also be welcome to visit me if you ever find yourself in Toronto.



brownjesus4566 said:


> Thanks for the support, arishorts. I think you should really read through the thread; it really gave me invaluable information, not just about Nardil. Gift of Gaba is an amazingly insightful and proficient writer; I have so much to thank him for. I seriously want to meet you in person to thank you for your information, encouragement, and support, what part of America do you live in? Please tell me it's the SF Bay Area! Arishorts, reading the thread, you'll see how Nardil changes lives infinitely for the better--and now it's done the same for me. Researching, getting prescribed, and taking Nardil (Phenelzine) was the best decision of my life--of course I've only been experiencing amazing benefits for 3 days, so I'm praying Nardil keeps working--and my ultimate goal on this thread, a goal that I've recently attained, is to spread as much good word about this medication as possible, and to get as many SA and depression sufferers on this miraculous, briliant medication as possible. I think that's a goal of GiftofGaba's as well, though I think he's focusing more on articulating and detailing his specific experience with Nardil and it's benefits, also a worthy goal. So any questions, I'd really love to answer, as well as offer support and encouragement---i should probably start another thread, I've kinda hijacked G of G's thread (sorry about that, GofG ). Anyway, yeah. Nardil's freaking brilliant, at least so far for me, and I have high expectations and I'm pretty sure the crazily positive effects will stick.


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## arishorts (Aug 8, 2013)

I wish i was as articulate as some of you, but i have one question. I've been researching the web on nardil and i keep hearing similar stories of nardil "pooping out" on people. Have any of you found stories where this was reversed? What do you plan to do if it does? I don't think id be able to return to SSRI's happily having experienced nardil the way you say is possible.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

You certainly seem very articulate Ari. I read some of your other posts and found them well thought-out. Your question touches on probably the greatest fear of Nardil users during the onset of achieving real therapeutic effects. People at day 30-120 I'd say, are probably the most vulnerable to this anxiety, as it's kind of a limbo time where you feel good but haven't enjoyed the effect long enough to be confident that you're dealing with something truly lasting. Not everyone will even get to this point but if they do, there is a great deal of elation thinking about its transformative and permanent life altering potential. The therapeutic heights that Nardil can give are such that the thought of returning to the pre-N abyss is like sensing that one may be cast out of heaven (okay--a bit hyperbolic but you get the picture). Sometimes I feel like I'm on a lever balanced right at the fulcrum, able to sway one way or the other with the slightest infelicitous breeze. Of course, there's no real reason to believe things _should_ go the wrong way, apart from the poop-out stories you referenced and my own ingrained sense of pessimism (which is evaporating).

I have no figures on how often poop-out occurs at various points along the timeline but the longer Nardil lasts the more insulated I feel from that terrible scenario. I also think it's hard to derive valid statistics from reading all the bad stories because those hapless souls may tend to be biased toward posting their disgruntlement whereas the non-pooper-outers have a habit of disappearing into the ether never to be heard from again.

Of course, should it happen that Nardil poops out, there are known strategies to feel the magic once again. Reducing dose temporarily is one such strategy. Augmentation with additional meds is another. Increasing dose or boosting absorption is possibly yet another, etc, etc. And the support and expertise and plain old brainstorming available on this forum by devoted Nardil users who are among THE most dedicated users committed to a psychopharmacological solution (which I think is the best solution; I believe SA has a biological basis) help in generating ideas to new problems that arise. There is real research of sorts going on here.

And I suspect at least some of the people who experienced poop-out were not completely committed, no..._devoted_ to using Nardil as their central therapeutic platform. Instead they saw Nardil as an esoteric remedy with a strange name; an oft discussed curiosity for the hardcore users in a jungle of inscrutable antidepressants. Maybe they were incognizant of its comparative panacean action vs SSRIs, SNRIs, Moclobemide (fake MAO inhibitor) and other crap, and blindly followed their doctor's often uninformed and antiquated advice vis-a-vis Nardil and other "obsolete" MAOIs from the '50s to quit the trial after _six weeks_, anachronistically mis-applying modern protocols to the wrong class of drugs (Nardil can take up to 5 months!), to try his latest stale big pharma re-uptake inducement. Maybe they carelessly abandoned 'ol Nard, facilely citing the reason du jour, "poop-out", and lapped up the drivel on Pristiq or even heard about an exciting new triple reuptake inhibitor in the pipeline, reasoning that such a drug works on all three big neurotransmitters so it must be like...Nardil! Okay, so I got a little excited there with my hypothetical yarn, but still, the kernel of what I said is solid.

A second scenario is that they originally had the Nardil zeal but were naive to certain tweaks and workarounds and succumbed to their ostensibly unresolvable side-effects prematurely, again citing "poop-out" (a vaguely ironic term to use, given Nardil's propensity for constipation).

We have to be soldiers here. Okay that's enough histrionics for me for one post.


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## arishorts (Aug 8, 2013)

I'm not always the best at doing research, my mind clog doesn't help me retain and process information i should be able to. I know my strengths and weaknesses well enough for this job. I can stay on the medication, it would be worth the pain. ~3 months in hell, i don't give a **** living like this is hell. No person should have to feel this way and if there is medication out there that will help it should be advertised and prescribed more than these SSRI's. They do have their value, but it's nowhere near the "cure" nardil reaches. In 18 days i see my psychiatrist. I'm on fluvoxamine right now and it's done a great job at quelling my thoughts but the umph i need to be with people hasn't come. At that point i'll have to ween off for a little to avoid Seratonin Syndrome and then i'm giving it a shot. I hope you guys will be around then, i'd like to share my experience with you.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

If you know you're going on Nardil already, then you can give yourself a head start by tapering off now. The doctors will make you do a washout of several weeks before allowing you to go on N.

We will be here when you go on.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> You certainly seem very articulate Ari. I read some of your other posts and found them well thought-out. Your question touches on probably the greatest fear of Nardil users during the onset period of achieving real therapeutic effects. People on day 30-120 I'd say, are probably the most vulnerable to this anxiety, as it's kind of a limbo time where you feel good but haven't enjoyed the effect long enough to be confident that you're dealing with something truly lasting. Not everyone will even get to this point but if they do, there is a great deal of elation thinking about its transformative and permanent life altering potential. The therapeutic heights that Nardil can give are such that the thought of returning to the pre-N abyss is like feeling that one may be cast out of heaven (okay--a bit hyperbolic but you get the picture). Sometimes I feel like I'm on a fulcrum balanced right at the middle point, able to sway one way or the other with the slightest infelicitous breeze. Of course, there's no real reason to believe things _should_ go the wrong way, apart from the poop-out stories you referenced and my own ingrained sense of pessimism (which is evaporating).
> 
> I have no figures on how often poop-out occurs at various points along the timeline but the longer Nardil lasts the more insulated I feel from that terrible scenario. I also think it's hard to derive valid statistics from reading all the bad stories because those people may tend to be biased toward posting their disgruntlement whereas the non-pooper-outers have a habit of disappearing into the ether never to be heard from again.
> 
> Of course, should it happen that Nardil poops out, there are known strategies to feel the magic once again. Reducing dose temporarily is one such strategy. Augmentation with additional meds is another. Increasing dose or boosting absorption is possibly yet another, etc, etc. And the support and expertise and plain old brainstorming available on this forum by devoted Nardil users who are among THE most dedicated users committed to a psychopharmacological solution (which I think is the best solution; I believe SA has a biological basis) help in generating ideas to new problems that arise. There is real research of sorts going on here. And I suspect at least some of the people who experienced poop-out were either not completely committed to using Nardil as their central therapeutic platform or else they were naive to certain tweaks and workarounds and gave up too early.


Poop out is scary--after Nardil working so incredibly the thought of it failing is terrifying. Like G of G said, most people, when experiencing mild poop out, temporarily lower their dose, to maybe 30 mg, for about a week. I'm not sure if Nardil would keep working at this dosage, but it'd be worth a few days of reduced effects to get Nardil back. I doubt Nardil would stop working at 30 mg though, especially since MAO inhibition has already occurrd. But I have no experience with poop out, and hopefully I never havr to deal with it. I'm expecting it to occur a few times though.


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## watertouch (Nov 4, 2013)

Could it be something with precursers, maybe some proteinpowder helps against poopout, and a multivitamin/mineral.. Or a somewhat highprotein diet.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Those are all ideas worth considering. Particularly the dosing amount and timing of pyridoxine (B6) supplementation.


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## arishorts (Aug 8, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> If you know you're going on Nardil already, then you can give yourself a head start by tapering off now. The doctors will make you do a washout of several weeks before allowing you to go on N.
> 
> We will be here when you go on.


I want to try it but i'd like to give luvox the full trial. Who knows if i'll ever need to be back on it. It's very helpful so far in it's area of effect. Definitely rid me of my compulsive thoughts and i'm feeling no light-headedness at 50mg! This medication could work well in combination with a SGRI and a DRI i believe, but i'd rather not juggle more medications than i have to. I'm a man of science, it sounds like you are too, i want to see this trial through to the end (18 days, a full month in total).

I've been waiting 21 years for a substance like this (i've had anxiety my entire life), another 14 days of waiting for detoxification is water off the shoulder. It's nice because i'll be coming off of such a small dose too.

Side note: Have you done any research into SGRI's? I've looked up tigabine it seems to be effective for small doses of anxiety at small doses. I've yet to see a case where someone took it purely for anxiety and it having dramatic effects. This phenibut you're speaking of also looks interesting. I put it on a wish list of things to try once i can sustain a job. I bet its worth few kicks on the club scene. Having a put-me-in-the-right-frame-of-mind med would be entertaining


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Hey Ari, I think it's a smart move to continue your Luvox trial. You should certainly find out if it works for you. Kind of an unorthodox and overlooked SSRI I've noticed. There's another member here, basuraeuropea who uses it for his GAD in combination with Lyrica and Clonazepam. He occasionally adds Wellbutrin as well. He is doing very, very well with this combination. So if you get the itch to augment, those might be worthwhile to check out.

No experience or much to add about SGRIs but they sound like an intriguing drug class. GABA is a mysterious and important neurotransmitter. If you do try it, I'd love to hear a report. A DRI? Not a lot of those around since Amineptine got the axe. What else is there? You could go for Wellbutrin as mentioned before though...


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

The most common cause of the so called "poop out" is simply that the body gets used to the medication and it occurs because of a decreased quantity of the substance reaching the site it affects. This may be caused by an increase in induction of the enzymes required for degradation of the drug.

Just stay off it and restart. This should work well for most people.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

I haven't read the whole thread. I haven't read anything about exercising on Nardil. I am an avid cyclist. So, I am wondering if the effects of Nardil poses any problems with cardio exercise? Sometimes it is intense. When I am climbing a hill my h.r. can climb to 160-165 bpm but that is the extreme max. It doesn't happen throughout the ride but if I am cycling in the hills. It will happen naturally on steep inclines. Also, how does it effect weight training?

Basically how safe is the use of Nardil on cardio and weight bearing exercise?
It might be covered, as I continue the thread. I am on pg 7, very informative and fascinating thread!

Cycling is a great way to release my anxiety and one of my passions. If I couldn't ride as per usual. Then that would very hard to accept. Since my pdoc is open to giving it a shot but I don't know if he has an answer to that question!

BTW- As an add on to my question, as I read more. I see that there is more experimentation going on. Which can become an obsessive thrill. So, please be careful and really analyze, research, and consider the dangers of mixing MAOI's with other drugs/meds. It seems as the thread goes on, there is less caution and a lot more almost spontaneous experimentation, be careful!


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

Hey all,

Sorry I haven't been helping out as usual. I've had immense problems in my own life, which have caused me to quit Nardil, to my great disappointment. I've made a thread about my problems:http://www.socialanxietysupport.com...-need-suggestions-for-antidepressants-855562/
I'd really appreciate any help I could get asap, I have a doctor's appointment in 1.5 days.

Thank you all so much,
brownjesus4566


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

metamorphosis: sorry, I thought I responded to your post but somehow my reply has disappeared. I'll give a brief synopsis:

You will probably struggle with cycling for several weeks until your body adapts to all the blood pressure effects. You'll be fatigued, dizzy, clumsy. I used to do HIIT three times per week but I had to stop completely. I'm only now considering starting again. With enough willpower though, I'd imagine your capacity to overcome Nardil's limitations would be better than mine. In terms of safety, I'm sure that you could listen to your body. If you can do it, you can do it. If you can't, you can't.

I also agree with your point about excessive experimentation. Yes there are smart augmenters but there comes a point where it's more hedonistic indulgence than truly making Nardil work, which is the whole point.


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## shy-one (May 10, 2008)

Another nardil miracle! Keep the good stories coming guys!


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## shy-one (May 10, 2008)

GiftofGABA said:


> Thanks for the post Nardil buddy. I'll add that it's not all sunshine and farts. Ploughing through the fatigue and being up at weird hours is taking its toll. Being free of social anxiety would be a sufficient outcome and I don't expect anything else. The near unlimited tolerance to criticism is truly nice though. I can respond to anyone in the most mature manner with utmost respect. I do hope that persists if only in the form that total absence from SA would seem to permit from my current perspective.


I know exactly what you're talking about in regards to tolerance to criticism. Before nardil I would constantly worry about what other people were thinking of me, now I barely give a thought about it! It completely changes your thought process. I now realise how much energy I used to waste on anxiety and worrying about what people think.

And yes, there are definitely downsides with the side effects, but its the price I have to pay to be free from anxiety (and mostly) depression.


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## shy-one (May 10, 2008)

gilmourr said:


> Shy-one, I forgot one user's name but I think he was indian.)
> 
> **Forgot that I had afternoon tiredness, that was IMPOSSIBLE to weather at 75mg. I'd go to sleep. Never had a hypertensive issue, ate whatever the **** I want even at 75 mg. Possibly idiotic but when you're depressed I wouldn't mind dying so I figured **** it. **


Nah mate, I'm an aussie 

Yeah the afternoon tiredness still gets me, sometimes at work i'll even fall asleep in my chair and I really struggle to keep my eyes open!


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## shy-one (May 10, 2008)

allornothing said:


> when you go a month without posting or even logging in on this forum, then it will be safe to assume nardil has actually worked for you, instead of you just hyping yourself up, making it only seem to have helped you.


Oh man, you speak the truth! I stopped coming on here over the past few years cause I was too busy living my life and having fun! I am still living in Europe and enjoying the adventure! I wouldn't have even moved here if it weren't for nardil!

If people on nardil stop posting and you never hear from them again, you know their SA is basically cured because they are out there living life!


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

shy-one said:


> Oh man, you speak the truth! I stopped coming on here over the past few years cause I was too busy living my life and having fun! I am still living in Europe and enjoying the adventure! I wouldn't have even moved here if it weren't for nardil!
> 
> If people on nardil stop posting and you never hear from them again, you know their SA is basically cured because they are out there living life!


Hey shy-one, hope you're doing well. If I remember correctly you had somewhat inconsistent results with Nardil, right? Has that somewhat straightened out? And also, I believe you weren't as happy with Nardil as you could have been, although I think it was still the best thing you'd ever tried for social anxiety. Me and GiftofGABA both had unbelievable experiences, in contrast, and couldn't be more impressed. Did Nardil start working amazingly for you, as it did for us? If it hasn't, I think if you can somehow work through the side effects, and raise your dose to 75 or even 90 mg a day, you will start to experience the completely brilliant effects we did. But, just a suggestion, and I might even be remembering completely wrong. From what I remember though you were very intelligent with your medications, and you'd probably be able to figure everything out. Good luck!


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

brownjesus4566 said:


> Hey shy-one, hope you're doing well. If I remember correctly you had somewhat inconsistent results with Nardil, right? Has that somewhat straightened out? And also, I believe you weren't as happy with Nardil as you could have been, although I think it was still the best thing you'd ever tried for social anxiety. Me and GiftofGABA both had unbelievable experiences, in contrast, and couldn't be more impressed. Did Nardil start working amazingly for you, as it did for us? If it hasn't, I think if you can somehow work through the side effects, and raise your dose to 75 or even 90 mg a day, you will start to experience the completely brilliant effects we did. But, just a suggestion, and I might even be remembering completely wrong. From what I remember though you were very intelligent with your medications, and you'd probably be able to figure everything out. Good luck!


Hey brown, how long did you spend total on Nardil again?


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

hworth said:


> Hey brown, how long did you spend total on Nardil again?


Exactly a month, started feeling the effects in 3 weeks. Let me know if you need more info, it's all in my thread as well.


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

I think Nardil has pretty much worn off, a week earlier than expected. I had to make a phone call, and I felt moderate anxiety while even doing that. Damn, lol, it actually feels pretty damn depressing, maybe the antidepressant aspect of Nardil has worn off too.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

*PART VII**I*

*Day 76* :

So. Finally another update. It's been about 11 weeks now since I started this amazing adventure with Nardil. I'm sure some of you are wondering if Nardil is still working for me and if so what kinds of side-effects am I still dealing with.

Therapeutically, everything is still going well. I don't get euphoric states really, although three days ago I was laughing insanely to myself on the street at what a miraculous ****ing state Nardil has put me in. I was in pure awe at how my life--well not the elements of my life _yet_, the relationships, jobs, opportunities, etc.--has done a 180 and finally succumbed to my wishes. It's glorious to feel this way, knowing you can handle with aplomb any finicky social challenge. And that's the essence of Nardil really I think, it's that the confidence it gives you is *real*; you can truly back up your social boldness by being able to respond deftly in ways that were previously inaccessible. I find this amazing. Nardil doesn't simple increase confidence, it genuinely increases social intelligence. And in a matter of weeks! How does it do this? God knows, but I've never experienced anything remotely on this plane with SSRIs et. al.

Nardil makes you want to talk. It turns you into an expert extrovert. You become the person that takes charge handily. You resolve disputes, help people, and don't need anything for yourself because you are inwardly content. Any niggling insecurity is easily dispelled. Thoughts occur against a calm backdrop of silence. Your mind becomes a smooth engine of productivity both socially and personally.

So I've experienced a lot of wonderful states, and awesome wins. I volunteered for class president at school, submitted an entry to a photography contest, and applied for a bursary. These are things I'd have completely avoided in the past. I've had zillions of (comparatively) good conversations, introduced myself without hesitation, made powerful eye-contact and talked in class more than anyone else. But there are ups and downs. For the most part it's been ups, including several spans of many weeks feeling utterly unassailable in terms of depression, anxiety and motivation. Unfortunately though, I'm now in my biggest lull (about 48 hours) in many, many weeks with Nardil. I'm actually a bit depressed (and this depression is no doubt exacerbated over anxiety about a poop-out effect) and not feeling a certain familiar confidence at the moment. I can still feel the Nardil working but it's struggling...I can't quite find my way into that pure positive mode. Any ideas?

Side-effects-wise, in the last few days I've noticed an improvement in libido but I still experience *anorgasmia*. All the BP issues are resolved as has pretty much everything else. I suppose there are still a few twitches here and there, and some weakness from time to time, but overall, I feel like my old self physically. Strangely, I never really experience hunger or fullness. But when I start eating, it's the most delicious thing on earth, whatever it happens to be. Tonight it was a coconut cream pie. Yes, an entire pie. And it was good.

ps: Big shout out to a couple of cool SASers: brownjesus4566 and hworth. You guys are the best.


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## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

Have you ever thought you might be hypomanic? Just wondered.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

You mean this whole time on Nardil?


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## dopamineimeandope (Dec 6, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> *PART VII**I*
> 
> *Day 76* :
> 
> ...


If that resounding endorsement doesn't prove Nardil's astounding efficacy, I don't know what will. I myself had read some of GiftofGABA's earlier posts upholding Nardil's greatness, before I had taken the medication, and I was under the impression that GiftofGABA was just an extreme case, someone who had responded particularly well to a decent medication. Until Nardil started working for me, and turned out to be EVEN BETTER, miraculously. This medication is the best thing out there for social anxiety and depression, and I have no idea why it is not much more pervasive than it is.

About the 48 hour "poop-out" you are experiencing, its simply way too early to draw any conclusions. I'm not just saying this, I really believe that Nardil will be back to its old self for you in less than a week. If not, for any reason, there are so many strategies to try, just a few off the top of my head: tweaking dosage times throughout the day, enhancing Nardil with alcohol or honey (I think I got that one from you LOL), and either raising or lowering dose. I'm pretty sure you won't need to try any of these, though: it'll come back before long, I can feel it.

So, no orthostatic hypotension anymore? Wow, awesome. I feel for you on the anorgasmia though. Did Phenibut not help? Maybe you could try GHB again, although you've had a complicated past with the drug and it might not be the best idea. Seriously, anorgasmia is really annoying, I've had for a month and still have it even though I'm off Nardil now. Especially because, on Nardil, you become so much better with the opposite gender, and you'd need orgasms more than ever. Too crass? haha

Can't wait till your mini poop out ends as it will, and you go back to killing life, GiftofGABA. Oh, and thanks for the shoutout


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> *PART VII**I*
> 
> *Day 76* :
> 
> ...


Thanks for the shout out man.. love ya too :b

In regards to the temporary Nardil poop-out, do you think it might be related to it finally sort of leveling out in effect and maybe because most epinephrine has probably been replaced by octopamine? I'm still doing really well on nardil as well but have been suffering issues with fatigue and motivation in general, and when I took Modafinil the other night it REALLY helped out... my theory is maybe a stimulant in conjunction is needed? Obviously its just a shot and dark and could be a totally transient issue/ something else entirely but for me anyways that seems to be the problem at the moment. It's almost like it seems Nardil has cured my anxiety + depression but I have underlying A.D.D. or something hahah, best way for me to describe it I guess.

I'd prefer not to need a stimulant daily if not entirely necessary or the issue sorts itself out tho. FYI, Kratom worked magically on my motivational + energy issues too, so might be something for the notoriously mad scientist Nardil experimenter to try  personally I think the whole potential risk is an overblown issue especially for people like us who have been on an MAOI for a long time now

Best wishes, keep me posted on how you're doin and as always any tips you've got are appreciated dude


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I think you might be onto something regarding augmentation with a stimulant. Nardil's anxiolytic effect seems able to handily dissipate any associated jitteriness so all you're left with are the positives. Modafinil or Armodafinil strike me as good choices since they aren't in the abuse category and are long lasting.

I don't believe octopamine replaces norepinephrine (I assume you meant NE and not epinephrine). But perhaps it competes with NE at certain receptor sites? For all I know, the net effect of octopamine is a therapeutic one though.

Whatever the cause of Nardil's diminished oomph at the moment, I am considering eventually lowering my dose by 15mg/day if my situation doesn't improve. Also on the table is raising my dose by 15mg/day (subject to psych's approval).


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

GiftofGABA said:


> I think you might be onto something regarding augmentation with a stimulant. Nardil's anxiolytic effect seems able to handily dissipate any associated jitteriness so all you're left with are the positives. Modafinil or Armodafinil strike me as good choices since they aren't in the abuse category and are long lasting.
> 
> I don't believe octopamine replaces norepinephrine (I assume you meant NE and not epinephrine). But perhaps it competes with NE at certain receptor sites? For all I know, the net effect of octopamine is a therapeutic one though.
> 
> Whatever the cause of Nardil's diminished oomph at the moment, I am considering eventually lowering my dose by 15mg/day if my situation doesn't improve. Also on the table is raising my dose by 15mg/day (subject to psych's approval).


Whoops ya good call lol I meant NE not epinephrine 
And as you can probably tell my understanding of the octopamine/NE thing is pretty hazy at best so if you find any detailed articles or information on it feel free to post it!

I suppose another 15mg a day added on could be useful considering your side effects aren't bad right now (correct?) But at the same time maybe it would be more practical to drop 15mg instead and boost back to 90 after a week or so at 75, cause I can tell you from personal experience it does indeed somewhat bring back the boost of the higher dose.. to what extent remains to be seen however.

modafinil is definitely my first choice for stim augmentation but I've no idea when it would be best to take it during the day..? Seems like if I do it immediately waking up alongside my Nardil I might end up with too much Dopamine at once and feel weird but that could totally just be me overthinking it as well hahah.. plus I tried taking it at 4pm the other friday night and then drinking at around 9pm thinking it had already worn off, baaad move on my part lol! Couldn't fall asleep but was insanely drunk at the same time and alert. Moral of the story: take Provigil early in the day and don't mix with alcohol :b
For some reason even when I was on Nardil 60mg, Nuvigil made me really depressed and feeling weird, but Provigil actually somewhat brightened my mood and worked the way it was supposed to (albeit I'm on 45mg now and I took the provigil way later in the day vs how I took 30mg of Nardil and nuvigil at the same time my previous attempt), that's kind of why I think all that dopamine at once upon waking might be counterintuitive. Also I've read provigil actually has some isomer or whatever it is that actually affects NE too, whereas Nuvigil I believe only affects dopamine but still has the other effects as it's sister drug does on histamine, orexins, etc.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I'll let you know if I learn anything about the octopamine thing. I kind of agree with your idea of dropping dose first. Easier to implement, lower risk.

That's interesting what you say about Provigil vs. Nuvigil and its effects on NE vs. DA. I also hadn't considered timing. I'll have more to say on this when I get my Nuvigil.

In other news, I made a small hail mary play today and dosed my whole 90mg inserted into enteric capsules. Effects: light sensitivity, mild hypotension (read: a return of mild sides), and moderate amelioration of Nardil's positives. I do feel more motivated and confident at the moment. Outside I was getting checked out a fair bit. I couldn't tell if it was the Nardil that made me perceive things that way or if I just actually started projecting better suddenly. All-in-all, a good experiment though and one which I'll continue tomorrow. My only worry is that I'm simply doing a linear dose increase by ingesting the Nardil in this fashion. (You're correct about my current mild side-effects). My hope, however, is that I'm positively changing the pharmacokinetics in a way that my body will adapt to more beneficially. Perhaps dosing this way will allow me to ultimately take less.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

Yo GABA, check this out..!!:
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=177053

It doesn't mention what time the patient took her 100mgs of Modafinil at during the day, but I would assume it would be in the morning? And she was taking 90mgs of Nardil just like you are (except splitting it 30mgx3)

I wonder if trying what they did in this study would also help me with my mid-afternoon fatigue from like 2-6pm that I keep getting hit with, this extremely tired feeling both mentally and physically like I've gotta take a nap no matter what hahah.. so far I just keep fighting it without coffee or stimulants but I fear it may just persist no matter how long I spend on Nardil since even @ 45mg right now I get this S.E. does this happen to you too? I still am amazed how you and some others even survive on 90mg let alone do pretty well on it side effect wise lol, different body chemistries i suppose

Also, apart from the afternoon tiredness my other noticeable side effect is _really_ bad memory. Seems like it's somewhat better for a while after dosing in the AM tho so I assume it could be NE/Dopamine related or possibly something to do with GABA increase but who knows.. still haven't found much info regarding Octopamine either


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Looks cool! I see she was taking Lamictal as well. I'm intrigued by that med.

Remember, you're on Gavis which may be different from my puny Erfa, so the difference in doses may be less relevant than you suppose. I don't get the stupids like you, although I had a few weeks of that at the beginning, but today I had to take a nap at 4pm. It happens quite frequently that I get tired midday, just as with you. Coffee seems to actually make me tired much of the time as well. I'm going to try 50-100mg Nuvigil I think. More as an energizer/motivator though. Why don't you try taking your Modafinil around 12pm-1pm and/or perhaps take a bit less of it?


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

Hahaha puny Erfa... funny. That's a good point though, it definitely would match the trend too since Shy-One just came back on a couple days ago and stated that he can't handle anything past 45mg either (he's on Gavis as well) and mr. t stayed on 45mg a long time too but now he's at 60.

Maybe if I get the fatigue real bad again tomorrow I'll try like 50mg of Modafinil at 2pm when I arrive home from school. That's usually when the fatigue creeps in anyways, entering full retard state til 6-7pm lol ;P case in point: right now it's 9:50pm and I feel really awake/good mood/alert. Such a strange drug

Oh and totally random FYI: I noticed Phenibut did indeed seem much stronger than usual on 45mg of Nardil last week! _And _it helped me fall asleep that night.. I <3 Pheni

Gotta get my hands on GHB some time for the sake of experimentation lols


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

*PART IX*

*Day 101* :

The ninth installment in my ongoing saga to treat all my symptoms that suck--SA, avoidance and depression being at the top of that list. In my last installment we learned that I wasn't getting the therapeutic effect I'd come to enjoy since the beginning of treatment. This was definitely a response to the loss of my purely hypomanic state (10 days) and "hypo-hypomanic" state which lasted another 4 week on either end of the acute phase where I'd have judged Nardil's effectiveness at almost a 10/10 with a small decrement purely due to side effects, so let's just say it was a 9.5/10. If you've ever taken MDMA or a powerful opioid or, say, a good quality amphetamine, I'd compare Nardil's acute effect in terms of magnitude and beauty to those kind of substances, yet with its own uniquely opulent features seemingly perfectly tuned to people with SA. Only it wasn't a "trip"; it lasted almost continuously, for ten days, with a residual powerful effect for many weeks. So you can imagine the letdown when I realized that state wasn't permanent. That state was the happiest I've ever been and I believe Nardil's hypomania is the partial basis for many of the misconceptions surrounding this med. Naive users at the beginning of their treatment tend to be particularly effusive because of this profound but ultimately transitory experience.

After that, we sometime see reports of poop-out. Well, that is a relative thing. Comparatively, nothing can match the initial euphoria some SA people experience, so when that acute state ends, it's easy to come to the conclusion that the party's over. However, that is a false realization. Nardil's post-hypomanic state is very effective. I get more therapeutic activity now than I ever have from other antidepressants. Subjectively, I still get a lot of Nardil's benefits notwithstanding the absence of that glorious euphoria but with a lot of features relatively intact. Let me explain.

Contrary to the last report, I've been experiencing significant hypotension again. I actually fainted and ended up getting treatment at the emergency room for a nasty cut on my nose. I'm not sure how to explain the return of this hypotension, but it might have to do with my administration of Nardil using enteric capsules (trying to simulate Gavis). These capsules certainly do render a different experience (they seem stronger). Proof of this is that I get the subjective effects approximately two hours after administration (suggesting intestinal absorption) rather than my usual 45 minute delay after normal oral administration (just swallowing the pills). Or, it may have something to do with the fact that I recently received a fresh bottle. With Nardil, I find its strength is greater when the pills are newer. Perhaps a rationale to keep them refrigerated. So, a more powerful dose may have something to do with it. Whatever the cause, the hypotension has been kind of a nuisance for a while now.

The subjective effect of the Nardil alone has been decent. Similar to the last report but with a small overall augmentation. My SA is still very much absent and my depression is very low. The only issue for me here is avoidance. I still would rather spend time alone than engage with people or make friends. I just prefer to do my own thing.

Enter Armodafinil aka Nuvigil: this has been recommended by mr.t and my experience with it as an augmenter has been excellent. My preference for it over traditional stimulants like Methylphenidate is because of two primary factors: 1) it's a non-euphoric stimulant with little monoamine activity and low addictive potential and 2) it has a long half-life, so a single dose lasts all day.

I wanted to augment the Nardil, create a bit more energy and drive. And Armodafinil did just that. So far it's decreased depression, increased drive and motivation and made me slightly more social. It's had a mild but real effect on all diagnostically significant parameters for me. It's: lessened SA, made me more outgoing and willing to engage, and decreased depression noticeably. On top of that and quite significantly, it may be a cure or partial cure for hypotensive states. While Armodafinil itself doesn't appear to raise blood pressure much, it does seem to control hypotension. I have no idea what the mechanism of action would be here but since beginning treatment with it I feel perfectly stable, non-wobbly and free from hypotension. Nice bonus effect that all Nardil users should take note of.

Current side-effects: Anorgasmia, slight nausea in the AM (treated occasionally with Ondansetron), slight hypertension after dosing (15 minute headache--non-occipital), muscular tiredness (presumably lactic acid bulid-up) and joint stiffness + soreness in hands and feet. And short-term memory loss.

I did two sets of pushups today (60 + 30) and some shoulder raises and I was out of breath for 20 minutes afterwards. That's what I mean by lactic acid build-up. I also wake up with a noticeable lactic acid soreness all over.

I'm not sure how to beat the anorgasmia. There are some pharmacological possibilities two of which I consider the leading candidates: cabergoline and testosterone. The latter is a bit extreme, so I may run the gamut of more moderate suggested compounds mentioned on SAS before trying either actually. Other possible cures are going off Nardil for 2-3 weeks, lowering my dose (90mg) or just waiting it out as several people have done successfully.

As a side note, I have a theory that anorgasmia relates to short-term memory. I have a suspicion that both are connected in some way to one's ability to focus without intermittent distraction and to stay in the moment. Both may be impaired and improvement in one may correlate to an inprovement in the other. I'd like to know if this is true.

Finally, numerically, I'd say I'm at a 6.5-7/10 where the maximal Nardil effect (minus euphoria) is a 10/10. Feeling quite good, capable, and able to handle a great deal of stress, social or otherwise. Currently quite happy. Got a psych appointment on the 12th where I'll discuss my experience so far with Nardil. I'm hoping for some valuable input.


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## 0707129r (Apr 22, 2013)

Very interesting log. I've found that anorgasmia eventually goes away after 3 or so months on a constant dose. I tried cabergoline for a couple of weeks which seemed to push the anorgasmia out, and you can try yohimbine on an as needed basis as it works very well. As long as you are careful, it actually works quite nicely with nardil and increases NE, which decreases tiredness and any hypotension issues. How is it you do the enteric coating and for how long? Would you recommend this?


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

0707129r said:


> Very interesting log. I've found that anorgasmia eventually goes away after 3 or so months on a constant dose. I tried cabergoline for a couple of weeks which seemed to push the anorgasmia out, and you can try yohimbine on an as needed basis as it works very well. As long as you are careful, it actually works quite nicely with nardil and increases NE, which decreases tiredness and any hypotension issues. How is it you do the enteric coating and for how long? Would you recommend this?


I agree with the 3 month estimate on anorgasmia, nowadays I can go up to basically any dose and not have trouble with it.

0707129r, do you have any other recommendations besides Yohimbine for tiredness/hypotension issues? And you're on 60mg correct..? Do you split the dose up or take it all at once?


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## 0707129r (Apr 22, 2013)

hworth said:


> I agree with the 3 month estimate on anorgasmia, nowadays I can go up to basically any dose and not have trouble with it.
> 
> 0707129r, do you have any other recommendations besides Yohimbine for tiredness/hypotension issues? And you're on 60mg correct..? Do you split the dose up or take it all at once?


I take 60mg all at once AM on empty stomach. I sometimes get a nice PEA boost after an hour or so. I don't have any hypotension issues any more and tiredness is only really an issue if I don't get proper sleep. I find energy drinks to be very nice on nardil, also modafinil can be very good.


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

0707129r said:


> I take 60mg all at once AM on empty stomach. I sometimes get a nice PEA boost after an hour or so. I don't have any hypotension issues any more and tiredness is only really an issue if I don't get proper sleep. I find energy drinks to be very nice on nardil, also modafinil can be very good.


What dose of Modafinil do you take? And what time of day do you take it in relation to your Nardil..?

Those are my last questions hahah, after that I'll stop hijacking GiftofGABA's thread


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## 0707129r (Apr 22, 2013)

usually just 100mg, around an hour after nardil. Has to be an emoty stomach or dosent really work


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

0707129r said:


> usually just 100mg, around an hour after nardil. Has to be an emoty stomach or dosent really work


Do you notice any kind of tolerance build up? Or why don't you use it everyday? (Unless it's just cause you don't have it prescribed.. totally get that. my psych wanted to give it to me but freakin insurance won't cover)


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## 0707129r (Apr 22, 2013)

only use it for special occasions, usually instead of drinking. I find it's a really good socialising alternative, also makes you smarter than everyone else in the room


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

Crossing my fingers, I've been at it for over three months now but I'm at 90mg. I'm interested in the Yohimbine idea except I'm concerned about anxiety. What dose do you use and does it cause you any jitteriness?

The enteric method I use is very simple and approximates the actual tablet coating quite well as far as I can tell. There's a guy on ebay who sells very good 00 enteric capsules. Each one can hold two pills. After I insert them, the pills deform the "crease" very nicely and probably stop most of the stomach acid from penetrating. Time to onset is very similar to the Gavis brand Nardil pills, so I'm assuming I'm getting a good amount of intestinal absorption. The overall effect is qualitatively similar to the usual method of dosing only stronger. I'd recommend it if you want a little boost in strength or if you just want to experiment to see if you notice a qualitative difference. A lot of people report that they get a better effect from the coated brands than the uncoated ones. That whole "old Nardil vs. new Nardil" debate.



0707129r said:


> Very interesting log. I've found that anorgasmia eventually goes away after 3 or so months on a constant dose. I tried cabergoline for a couple of weeks which seemed to push the anorgasmia out, and you can try yohimbine on an as needed basis as it works very well. As long as you are careful, it actually works quite nicely with nardil and increases NE, which decreases tiredness and any hypotension issues. How is it you do the enteric coating and for how long? Would you recommend this?


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

Sup, Gift! 

Regarding your earlier update about using Armodafinil, I was just wondering; what time do you usually take it in relation to Nardil? And at what dose?

I always gotta ask people these things lols



GiftofGABA said:


> Crossing my fingers, I've been at it for over three months now but I'm at 90mg. I'm interested in the Yohimbine idea except I'm concerned about anxiety. What dose do you use and does it cause you any jitteriness?
> 
> The enteric method I use is very simple and approximates the actual tablet coating quite well as far as I can tell. There's a guy on ebay who sells very good 00 enteric capsules. Each one can hold two pills. After I insert them, the pills deform the "crease" very nicely and probably stop most of the stomach acid from penetrating. Time to onset is very similar to the Gavis brand Nardil pills, so I'm assuming I'm getting a good amount of intestinal absorption. The overall effect is qualitatively similar to the usual method of dosing only stronger. I'd recommend it if you want a little boost in strength or if you just want to experiment to see if you notice a qualitative difference. A lot of people report that they get a better effect from the coated brands than the uncoated ones. That whole "old Nardil vs. new Nardil" debate.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

What I've noticed is that if taken close to Nardil administration I get a smoothing out of hypotension, and possibly hypertension (haven't worked that out yet). And the hypotensive mitigation will happen whenever I take it. If taken around or just after Nardil administration, I get an inhibition of the Nardil rush, whether that's the so-called GABA-ergic boost or if it's actually catecholamine/5HT inhibition or a combination of both. So now I think I prefer to take it after I get that rush but ideally before the hypotensive effects set in.

I usually take 125mg, a sort of medium dose. I've noticed some tolerance to Armodafinil after a few days, so one day off one day on seems like the best use for this substance. You can probably get away with more frequent dosing if you lower the dose. I'd like to do two days on one day off ideally and time it so I can use it when it's more important--studying, classroom participation, etc.


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

A tiny update: something's going on today. I haven't felt like this in a loooong time. I switched around my dosing to 2AM and 7AM. This is the 3rd day doing that. I've been dealing with bad hypotension for a few weeks now (see my last update for details of my fainting episode) and today was no different. Until 1PM my blood pressure was hovering painfully around 75/45 at times. Snow was pure white. I was bumping into stuff. But suddenly the hypotension went away (it usually lasts all day off and on) and I started looking people in the eye more, a lot more. Now I feel a tingly euphoria all over and I feel super energized and motivated. If kick-in alpha was the prime hypomanic experience early on at week 3 or so, could this be kick-in beta? The permanent one? At 15 weeks, I really hope so, but I'm staying realistic (not really).


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## hworth (Mar 31, 2013)

Dude i'm insanely jealous ;P sounds awesome!

Are you still packing your Nardil into enteric capsules? I have a feeling that's probably 80% of the reason for this euphoric come-back (probably acting more like Gavis now, so you're getting a 'higher dose' than usual perhaps..? I could handle 75mg of Pfizer nardil but on Gavis these days I had to come back down to 45mg daily cause the hypotension and sleepiness is overwhelming.) Like slurring my words and forgetting things that happened 5-10 min ago bad lol. I've begun Lamictal augmentation for real this time cause i realized i was sick and it wasnt the lamotrigine causing my sore throat & coughing, as a friend caught exactly what i had a few days after and was really hoarse  will keep updates in my thread if it turns out to be a great augmentator

keep updating!


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## GiftofGABA (Oct 2, 2013)

I stopped doing the enteric capsule thing. The effect is definitely stronger with that delivery method (and I believe Gavis is at least 25% stronger than Pfizer), but I think I was unnecessarily looking for augmentations when I could have just upped the dose really. Now I'm trying to minimize variables, so I've been stabilizing everything including dose, timing of dose and diet as well as minimizing ancillaries. So far seems to be doing good. Right this second, this morning's paralyzing hypotension is disappearing (3.5 hours since last dose) and I'm starting to feel good again. My short-term memory and joint pain are improving. With luck, things will slip into place now. Will update with any changes.

I'm very interested in your Lamictal augmentation. I think we have different neuropathologies but it will be interesting to see if it works for you. Stick with it this time!

Edit: starting to feel really ****ing nice! Should be studying but instead I'm listening to this!


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## SA232 (Jun 7, 2013)

It would be great if this

it's is one of the oldest known antidepressants. It is sometimes regarded as the best monotherapy for extinguishing social anxiety. It's an MAOI, or more specifically a non-selective irreversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase with a complex mode of action. It was invented in the 1950s after a similar compound used to treat tuberculosis was accidentally discovered to make people happy. Since then, science has not been able to find a compound capable of producing a statistically significantly better antidepressant effect.

had sources.


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## ChopSuey (Nov 5, 2012)

SA232 said:


> It would be great if this
> 
> it's is one of the oldest known antidepressants. It is sometimes regarded as the best monotherapy for extinguishing social anxiety. It's an MAOI, or more specifically a non-selective irreversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase with a complex mode of action. It was invented in the 1950s after a similar compound used to treat tuberculosis was accidentally discovered to make people happy. Since then, science has not been able to find a compound capable of producing a statistically significantly better antidepressant effect.
> 
> had sources.


Just read studies that compare Nardil to X antidepressant, the majority of them shows Nardil is more effective.


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

Any updates?


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

I've been on it close to four weeks and I still don't feel any better. WTF man, WTF


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## SA232 (Jun 7, 2013)

Are you taking enough?

_Phenelzine has the advantage that the effective dosage for depression is probably now known-more than 1 mg/kg body weight-although in three earlier large negative controlled studies, the effective dosage was not known and too little was given for too short a period._

Cole J, Bodkin A. MAO inhibitors: An option worth trying in treatment-resistant cases. Current Psychiatry, Vol. 1, No. 6, June 2002


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## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> I've been on it close to four weeks and I still don't feel any better. WTF man, WTF


Yeah, dose is key. There's basically one dose for all meds that normally will sometimes work and going over or under will lead to your symptoms worsening. It sucks taking it slow, but that's the game.

Usually 45-60 does it for most people. If you haven't felt any effect by 4 weeks, I'd up it 15 mg every 2 weeks after.


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

gilmourr said:


> Yeah, dose is key. There's basically one dose for all meds that normally will sometimes work and going over or under will lead to your symptoms worsening. It sucks taking it slow, but that's the game.
> 
> Usually 45-60 does it for most people. If you haven't felt any effect by 4 weeks, I'd up it 15 mg every 2 weeks after.


I'm 5'10 170-175 pounds. I started on 45 mg for about 2 weeks and now have been on 60 mg for close to 2 weeks. Still depressed and anxious. Not sure if I want to increase the dosage yet though because I've had fatigue from it.


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

SA232 said:


> Are you taking enough?
> 
> _Phenelzine has the advantage that the effective dosage for depression is probably now known-more than 1 mg/kg body weight-although in three earlier large negative controlled studies, the effective dosage was not known and too little was given for too short a period._
> 
> Cole J, Bodkin A. MAO inhibitors: An option worth trying in treatment-resistant cases. Current Psychiatry, Vol. 1, No. 6, June 2002


So I should be on between 75-90 mg if I'm about 170 pounds(77kg)?

Is this a common widely accepted rule for Nardil? The 1mg/kg body weight ratio.


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## daddylonglegs (Mar 5, 2014)

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> I'm 5'10 170-175 pounds. I started on 45 mg for about 2 weeks and now have been on 60 mg for close to 2 weeks. Still depressed and anxious. Not sure if I want to increase the dosage yet though because I've had fatigue from it.


Just hang in there, dude. It's supposed to take _at least_ four weeks on the effective dose to start working. Some people have reported up to 8-weeks on the effective dosage. You've only been on 60mg for two weeks, and you might even need more than that. Have you started getting the postural hypotension yet?


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## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> I'm 5'10 170-175 pounds. I started on 45 mg for about 2 weeks and now have been on 60 mg for close to 2 weeks. Still depressed and anxious. Not sure if I want to increase the dosage yet though because I've had fatigue from it.


Doesn't have much to do with weight. Has more to do with liver enzymes. Fast/slow/intermediate metabolizer.

Normally Asian/Native are slower metabolizers

Black and White are normal

There are exceptions though. You need to do a CYP450P test if you want to know.
I think using that 1kg/mg is way off. I would've had to take 90 mg. 45 mg was bad enough with side effects.


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

From what I've read, it takes around 4-6 weeks at a min. dosage of 60mg before effects are felt. 

"Early phase treatment: Dosage should be increased to at least 60 mg per day at a fairly rapid pace consistent with patient tolerance. It may be necessary to increase dosage up to 90 mg per day to obtain sufficient MAO inhibition. Many patients do not show a clinical response until treatment at 60 mg has been continued for at least 4 weeks."

I just started about a week ago and am at 30mg right now. I wouldn't recommend going higher than 60 'til you've been on it for at least a month, in order to mitigate SE.

Good luck, and keep updating!


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

It was actually this thread that led me to start Nardil after having no knowledge about the compound prior to coming here. The profound changes underwent by both GiftofGABA and brownjesus4566 compelled me to give it a shot.


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

daddylonglegs said:


> Just hang in there, dude. It's supposed to take _at least_ four weeks on the effective dose to start working. Some people have reported up to 8-weeks on the effective dosage. You've only been on 60mg for two weeks, and you might even need more than that. Have you started getting the postural hypotension yet?


I haven't gotten any hypotension yet. Am I suppose to get it?


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

a salty salute said:


> From what I've read, it takes around 4-6 weeks at a min. dosage of 60mg before effects are felt.
> 
> "Early phase treatment: Dosage should be increased to at least 60 mg per day at a fairly rapid pace consistent with patient tolerance. It may be necessary to increase dosage up to 90 mg per day to obtain sufficient MAO inhibition. Many patients do not show a clinical response until treatment at 60 mg has been continued for at least 4 weeks."
> 
> ...


Thanks. How do you know if you've obtained sufficient MAO inhibition or not?


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## daddylonglegs (Mar 5, 2014)

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> I haven't gotten any hypotension yet. Am I suppose to get it?


I think so. It's my understanding that it's a symptom of >80% MAO-inhibition, which is where you want to be. So, if you're not there yet, don't worry too much about the drug not being effective.

My guess is that it's impossible for the drug to not inhibit MAO, so you're either going to have to give it more time or increase the dose. My hypotension started about two weeks ago, when I moved up to 60mg. Now, I'm on 75mg and it is extreme.


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## daddylonglegs (Mar 5, 2014)

whoops, double post


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

How do you know when you have the hypotension? Is it constant where if you measure your blood pressure you'll have hypotension? Or is it only upon standing? I've had some minor balance problems only a few times about a week about but I dont think that was/is indicative of the hypotension?


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> Thanks. How do you know if you've obtained sufficient MAO inhibition or not?


I'd say elevated mood and reduced anxiety like others have shown. 
Orthostatic hypotension and hypomania are good indicators, as well.


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

Damn I really really want that elevated mood and reduced anxiety so bad! Please start working nardil!


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

Hahah! Me too, man. I'm slowly working my way up to 60mg (at 30mg right now); I wanna get there and coast for awhile, then maybe work up to 75mg. Let me know how things work out for you. Best of luck!


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

Thanks. You too! Have you felt anything yet? I still feel like ****


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

Not yet -- I'm still in the early stage of titrating my way up to 60mg. I don't expect anything out of Nardil until I'm at that dose for at least a good month or so. My pdoc is very prudent, and wants me to work my way up slowly; however it's a little too slow for my taste, so next visit I'm going to ask her to speed things up.


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## daddylonglegs (Mar 5, 2014)

Iwillovercomeanxiety1 said:


> How do you know when you have the hypotension? Is it constant where if you measure your blood pressure you'll have hypotension? Or is it only upon standing? I've had some minor balance problems only a few times about a week about but I dont think that was/is indicative of the hypotension?


It's upon standing. For me, it started out subtly, with the only symptom being ringing in my ears, about half a week after I went up to 60mg. I had been on 15-45mg for 5 weeks already, though. Now that I'm on 75mg (been here about a week) the effect is profound. I can hardly do anything if I'm standing. When I first stand up, my ears start ringing so loudly that I can't hear if people are talking to me. Also, I experience a brightness that interferes with my vision. I've been on the drug for about 8 weeks.

Your minor balance problems were probably not indicative of hypotension if they were the same sort of thing that I experienced at first.


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

daddylonglegs said:


> It's upon standing. For me, it started out subtly, with the only symptom being ringing in my ears, about half a week after I went up to 60mg. I had been on 15-45mg for 5 weeks already, though. Now that I'm on 75mg (been here about a week) the effect is profound. I can hardly do anything if I'm standing. When I first stand up, my ears start ringing so loudly that I can't hear if people are talking to me. Also, I experience a brightness that interferes with my vision. I've been on the drug for about 8 weeks.
> 
> Your minor balance problems were probably not indicative of hypotension if they were the same sort of thing that I experienced at first.


How frequent do the SE at 75mg appear; do you feel that they would seriously affect work performance, or endanger you in any way?
Also, how efficacious was it for treating SA at 60mg, and how is it now at 75mg?


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## daddylonglegs (Mar 5, 2014)

a salty salute said:


> How frequent do the SE at 75mg appear; do you feel that they would seriously affect work performance, or endanger you in any way?
> Also, how efficacious was it for treating SA at 60mg, and how is it now at 75mg?


I was only on 60mg for a week, so I can't really compare the two.

What kind of work do you do?

There were a few days when the hypotensive side effects were pretty much constant whenever I was standing up. Two times my legs have actually become too wobbly to support me, but only for a few seconds. One time I sort of fainted. I didn't completely lose consciousness, but there was no way I could have stopped myself from falling. But, that only happened because I went to sleep for two hours after taking my dose, and jumped out of bed upon waking in order to shut my alarm off.

I can already sense the side effects starting to subside, and I've only been on 75mg for a week and a half. If I had spent more time at 60mg, they probably wouldn't have been so severe.


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

That's a little disconcerting -- I work on helicopters, and do a lot of climbing/standing on them. I know you were only on it for a week, but did you get a lot of orthostatic hypotension at 60mg? That's the one SE that I am worried about the most, but I may be able to mitigate it by titrating up very carefully.

Also, how would you rate it for treating your social anxiety? Any breakthroughs or triumphs?


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## daddylonglegs (Mar 5, 2014)

a salty salute said:


> That's a little disconcerting -- I work on helicopters, and do a lot of climbing/standing on them. I know you were only on it for a week, but did you get a lot of orthostatic hypotension at 60mg? That's the one SE that I am worried about the most, but I may be able to mitigate it by titrating up very carefully.
> 
> Also, how would you rate it for treating your social anxiety? Any breakthroughs or triumphs?


Yeah, what I've been experiencing would definitely interfere with that kind of work. I haven't even been able to practice singing some days because it requires me to stand up.

I was only on 45mg for 1.5-2 weeks before going up to 60mg. You could try staying on 45mg for longer. Some people do well on 45mg without ever going higher.

On 60mg the effects were much less pronounced. I don't think I experienced any dizziness. It's possible that all I experienced on 60mg was some ear ringing immediately upon standing. The problem is that I was on it for such a short period of time that it's hard to know whether the effects were subtle because they were just getting started or because that's what the effects are like on 60mg.

If you do experience the hypotension, you could try taking it all at night. I take mine all in the morning, and before I take it in the morning the hypotension is greatly lessened.

So far, I'd give it a 4/10 for social anxiety, and a 7/10 for depression. I was having a really difficult time dealing with the breakup between myself and my girlfriend of nine years. Like, I thought about it every single hour for a year and a half. The Nardil just wiped that out. I simply don't care. For reference, I'd give Effexor 3/10 for SA, and the rest of the SSRI's 0/10.

Socially, things still make me anxious, but I'm feeling much more talkative around people that I'm comfortable with. I'm posting way more online. But, that could all be because I'm just not as depressed.

I went out with some friends and I felt much less like a zombie and much more natural, like making jokes and stuff.

I noticed when I was out walking my dog it was much easier to say "hi" to people and that I actually wanted to say "hi" rather than it being an obligation. Also, little kids were asking to pet her and I didn't feel like some weirdo. I acted like a normal human being.

But, I've only been above 60mg for two weeks. I'm hoping this is just the beginning and that it'll really kick in within the next month or two.


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

daddylonglegs said:


> Yeah, what I've been experiencing would definitely interfere with that kind of work. I haven't even been able to practice singing some days because it requires me to stand up.
> 
> I was only on 45mg for 1.5-2 weeks before going up to 60mg. You could try staying on 45mg for longer. Some people do well on 45mg without ever going higher.
> 
> ...


I'm glad that you've started to feel some relief even this early on above 60mg! That's definitely a good sign. I think I'll try staying on 45mg for about 3-4 weeks before going up to 60mg.

I'm definitely glad that it's giving you such positive effects on depression, as well. I'm sure that helps in ameliorating SA.

I love reading about people's successes with Nardil. I've been scouring SAS for affirmations of Nardil's ability to liberate people from their SA. This site has been such a beacon of hope.

Thanks!


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

a salty salute said:


> I'm glad that you've started to feel some relief even this early on above 60mg! That's definitely a good sign. I think I'll try staying on 45mg for about 3-4 weeks before going up to 60mg.
> 
> I'm definitely glad that it's giving you such positive effects on depression, as well. I'm sure that helps in ameliorating SA.
> 
> ...


Yes I hope that we all have success on it as we are all just in the beginning stages. I'm 4 and a half weeks in and about 2 and half weeks on 60 mg. Not sure yet if it's really had an effect on anxiety/depression but I'm really hoping I'll feel the relief soon.


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

I'm rootin' for ya, man! Hopefully we'll all -- including daddylonglegs -- be graduating from Nardil class of '14. Just a few more weeks to go! Keep us updated.


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

a salty salute said:


> I'm rootin' for ya, man! Hopefully we'll all -- including daddylonglegs -- be graduating from Nardil class of '14. Just a few more weeks to go! Keep us updated.


Yeah I hope so. Like I said in my specific thread on Nardil, I'm going through bumps in the road. Hopefully they're just bumps and Nardil starts kicking anxietys ***. How's it going for you so far?


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## a salty salute (May 27, 2014)

Im slowly working my way up. I just started 45mg a few days ago, and have an appointment tomorrow where I'm going to ask about upping to 60mg in about a week. I'm pumped that I'm just one step away from the threshold of a therapeutic dose!


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

a salty salute said:


> Im slowly working my way up. I just started 45mg a few days ago, and have an appointment tomorrow where I'm going to ask about upping to 60mg in about a week. I'm pumped that I'm just one step away from the threshold of a therapeutic dose!


There you go. I hope that **** makes you feel like Superman eventually. Have you felt anything yet on the lower dosages?


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## meffect (Oct 30, 2012)

i took nardil for a wile. i dont know... it changes you in a misleading way. when i stoped taking it, i felt like i woke up from a dream where someone else was controlling my life


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## Iwillovercomeanxiety1 (Aug 23, 2010)

meffect said:


> i took nardil for a wile. i dont know... it changes you in a misleading way. when i stoped taking it, i felt like i woke up from a dream where someone else was controlling my life


Misleading way as in a good or bad way? Maybe you're just use to anxiety/depression controlling your life and it didn't feel right?


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## Andre (Feb 27, 2004)

When i took nardil with caffeine, which is the only way i took it, it made me hyper. You have to take it without large amounts of caffeine or else you will behave in a way misunderstood by virtually everyone, but not ab****ely everyone. You may also feel compelled to lie about your bipolar diagnosis because the only reason you behaved like a maniac was that you amplified the stimulating effects in combining the two drugs. I'd like to hear from someone who has combined large amounts of coffee with their nardil, as i have, and how they recovered from their mistake.


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## 546617 (Oct 8, 2014)

Update us bro<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


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## Burnaby (Feb 13, 2013)

meffect said:


> i took nardil for a wile. i dont know... it changes you in a misleading way. when i stoped taking it, i felt like i woke up from a dream where someone else was controlling my life


How long were u on Nardil and what did you change to? are you satisfied overall with quitting nardil?


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