# Atheism in Europe



## Glacial (Jun 16, 2010)

I have heard for a long time Europe has been much more atheistic than the U.S.

I have always been curious as to why and how it reached this status?

To me, it seems a bit ironic that the U.S. is filled with so much religion and that religion has such a place in politics when the reason, I tought, people came to the U.S. was to have religious freedom, which I would also assume to be the freedom from practicing any religion.


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## Minipurz (Aug 25, 2009)

I thought the reason for people coming to USA back in the days, was to plunder the untouched land and get rich and stuff in the process :/ ?

But tbh I really dont know man, and cant be arsed to read up on history.


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## Rossy (Jan 15, 2011)

Because we live in the real world and not under an illusion


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## foolosophy11 (Aug 21, 2011)

It partly has to do with our welfare systems, people just don't need the comfort and safety religion would otherwise give them.

In Denmark the church is subsidized by the state which means that it does not need to advertise itself in order to get funding. So christianity gets way less exposure here than in America.

Also science!


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## Urquhart (Jan 9, 2012)

There's also the idea that there are established churches in most European countries - like the Anglican Church in Britain - they've withered into obscurity because they got complacent. Whereas in the U.S., there's no state religion, so churches compete for congregations, so they put a lot more effort into it. 

Plus, a massive reason for American religiosity was the Cold War. It was godless Russian Communism vs. the godly American freedom-lovers, so religiosity became a part of what it was to be a patriotic American. It was the '50s they added "In God We Trust" to the currency and "...under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, precisely for this reason. Many people still think atheism has something to do with communism, and it's all because of that massive propaganda campaign. 

Just a few thoughts on what the reasons might be.


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

I live in one of those atheist countries. I am not sure how it came about but it has been like this for a long time in Western Europe. The last 3 generations of my family have been atheist.


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

And among the first settlers in America were Europeans fleeing religious persecution in England. Religion played a large part in founding the US whereas over here.... well, we lived here long before we were Christians. Religion isn't what brought us here or what keeps us together.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Lisa said:


> And among the first settlers in America were Europeans fleeing religious persecution in England.


Actually, I saw this on QI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6DRjk0aQck#t=3m55s


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## Resonance (Feb 11, 2010)

Kind of ironic that in the UK, being religious (or at least, belonging to an organised religion) is generally seen as unusual and atheism seems the norm, and yet we have no separation of church and state (i.e. The Church of England, religious positions in the House of Lords). Meanwhile in America where secularism is enshrined in the constitution, everyone is Religions and you have monotheist dogma on your money, not to mention everywhere else.

I think Lisa's suggestion that the US population is descended from Christian European colonists, whereas European populations descended from Britons and Gauls and Romans and Germani etc is interesting - it means we have diverse religious cultural history whereas the religious history of the white population of America is almost exclusively Christian.

I don't really know why the US is so religious compared to Europe, I think it is just one of those cultural phenomena - like how abortion is a big issue in the US but not in Europe, or how in the UK nobody except fascists have national flags outside their houses, yet in other countries there are flags everywhere.


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## fredbloggs02 (Dec 14, 2009)

Religious divide between the west and the East, America without ancestry, no culture to revert back to since it was taken over by Christians. Vast area with a relatively small population... I dunno, maybe when laws differ by territory, a country strewn out and sparsely populated draws on some unifying principle to keep it together. I think as climate differs and local customs differ, people lose sight of what was law on the other side...maybe? So God unifies? I'd like to know. I think Machiavelli was a famous writer close to the time the Christians inhabited the new world, pretty domineering sort of fellow, so perhaps he influenced the new government. I wish I knew why America were so religious. I always put religious societies down to their lack of development adopting the most pragmatic means though I'm sure there is more to it. I think the first democracy in Greece was when the first monotheistic God was introduced to them and the situation in America looks similar, all the indoctrination suggested, all the infringements of people's personal rights in the supposed democracy Plato suggested are there. I think perhaps that's a phase a country goes through as it develops, but going through it on the shoulders of the Greeks will be more vicious because in their day it was the very dawn of the idea to them, before democracy their oppression wasn't subliminal, arisocratic families ruled, whereas in America, Christians founded their society; so having the fear of God already instilled served utility? I don't think the spirit was the same under the aristocratic families in Greece, I think they performed rights that kept oppression at bay, were divided amongst the families and had a humour about some of their Gods the Christian God does not acquiesce to lol. There was also an atheistic vein in their Gods, I think a lot of Greeks had grown out of the idea of God but they kept up the rights: we just do it, because it works kinda attitude. I know they still feared Zeus but it was different, he simply struck people down and cursed them, less constant dogmatic repression maybe? That America's population was first Christian, having the fear of God already in them as opposed to the first Greeks who were better prepared for democracy, in better condition.. psychologically lol. So the whole of Greece rose for democracy in the wake of new ideas whereas in America the condition of it was imposed on them. Two different types of democracy with the same laws, and it works better when people have already been taught to fear a unifying overlord I think. Pure utility?


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

America is probably religious because of the high rate of poverty and lack of social welfare. Poverty breeds religion. It probably doesn't help that Americans don't travel abroad very often either.


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## Dark Alchemist (Jul 10, 2011)

Compared to European nations the U.S is still a pretty young country.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

komorikun said:


> America is probably religious because of the high rate of poverty and lack of social welfare. Poverty breeds religion. It probably doesn't help that Americans don't travel abroad very often either.


I think this mainly the cause too. When you're in a hole, religion is very enticing.


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## Glacial (Jun 16, 2010)

komorikun said:


> America is probably religious because of the high rate of poverty and lack of social welfare. Poverty breeds religion. It probably doesn't help that Americans don't travel abroad very often either.


Sounds like a valid theory. Just consider the appalachian region of the U.S. Even in the last 50 years, there have been people living in complete poverty and some without electricity, so I've heard. Incidentally, this area also tends to be very religious from what I've seen (along with the bible belt region). I think it serves as a crutch to pull through the day-to-day hardships.


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## Quinn the Eskimo (Jan 22, 2012)

its probably true for some cases that poverty breeds religion but not all

my parents are ignorant and poor yet they are not very into God, they are televistian more than anything


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

The best reason I've heard for it is that the US population has been living in a far higher state of fear (welfare/cold war issues) than the European population since the end of WWII.

Insecurity and religion often go hand in hand.


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## minimized (Nov 17, 2007)

How about the constant warfare and intrigue (often religious-based)?

All we Americans cling to is our egocentric isolationism... we think we're God's gift to the world. Instead we give to the world our own breed of fascism. Everyone thinks they're temporarily-embarrassed millionaires like the peasants of medieval times preached to of salvation... and so they find it impossible to react when confronted with something that threatens to puncture their bubble. So they react with fear and loathing and do their best to suppress the very ideals they think they worship.

"If you don't like it, get out!"


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## Resonance (Feb 11, 2010)

mark101 said:


> That kind of statement gets on my nerves,so you think anybody flying the union flag or flag of st george is a fascist?
> That makes me wanna go get a flag to put up just to get up the noses of people like you who believe it's a racist statement to love your country.lol


Of course I don't think either putting up a national flag or loving one's country is racist or fascist, I have on occasion flown St. George's cross at my own house during particular sports events. What I said was not _it is racist to put up a flag_ but _in England only fascists put flags up_. Because it's basically true. While of course there are exceptions, nobody except BNP or EDL types tend to bother with the flag here.


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## Shoelaces (Dec 30, 2011)

fredbloggs02 said:


> Religious divide between the west and the East, America without ancestry, no culture to revert back to since it was taken over by Christians. Vast area with a relatively small population... I dunno, maybe when laws differ by territory, a country strewn out and sparsely populated draws on some unifying principle to keep it together. I think as climate differs and local customs differ, people lose sight of what was law on the other side...maybe? So God unifies? I'd like to know. I think Machiavelli was a famous writer close to the time the Christians inhabited the new world, pretty domineering sort of fellow, so perhaps he influenced the new government. I wish I knew why America were so religious. I always put religious societies down to their lack of development adopting the most pragmatic means though I'm sure there is more to it. I think the first democracy in Greece was when the first monotheistic God was introduced to them and the situation in America looks similar, all the indoctrination suggested, all the infringements of people's personal rights in the supposed democracy Plato suggested are there. I think perhaps that's a phase a country goes through as it develops, but going through it on the shoulders of the Greeks will be more vicious because in their day it was the very dawn of the idea to them, before democracy their oppression wasn't subliminal, arisocratic families ruled, whereas in America, Christians founded their society; so having the fear of God already instilled served utility? I don't think the spirit was the same under the aristocratic families in Greece, I think they performed rights that kept oppression at bay, were divided amongst the families and had a humour about some of their Gods the Christian God does not acquiesce to lol. There was also an atheistic vein in their Gods, I think a lot of Greeks had grown out of the idea of God but they kept up the rights: we just do it, because it works kinda attitude. I know they still feared Zeus but it was different, he simply struck people down and cursed them, less constant dogmatic repression maybe? That America's population was first Christian, having the fear of God already in them as opposed to the first Greeks who were better prepared for democracy, in better condition.. psychologically lol. So the whole of Greece rose for democracy in the wake of new ideas whereas in America the condition of it was imposed on them. Two different types of democracy with the same laws, and it works better when people have already been taught to fear a unifying overlord I think. Pure utility?


HOLY WALL OF TEXT

Joking aside, I think more people would be more likely to read your input if you divided your chapters, even if it's well written and thoughtful otherwise. It just makes the text easier to read.

Although I'm European I can only guess why people here are increasingly seperating from religion. In my home country the movement became more prominent in the late 90's and early 2000's, but even though the majority of my countrymen and women are "evancelic lutheric", it seems like they are Christian in paper only, because they neither go to church or really believe in God. Or they are passive theists, that don't practise their faith in any way. I guess we're kind of rebellious and aim to think for ourselves, haha. Respect for science and a tendency to clinical, rational thinking have a part in it too.


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## Rossy (Jan 15, 2011)

Yeah its probaly because were awake and not deluded by religion.


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## emmanemma (Apr 16, 2012)

I just got back from 10years in the states, the way you guys do politics is a big factor too.


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## AlanJs (Dec 8, 2010)

Well we can't really compare a country to a continent because in some European countries like Italy, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, they are very religious.

Estimated countries where Atheism dominates with 50% or more:

Sweden 85%
Vietnam 81%
Denmark 80%
Norway 72%
Japan 65%
Czech 61%
Finland 60%
Germany 58%
Great Britain 55%
France 54%
South Korea 50%
Estonia 50%

9/12 are European.

Most of these countries have a very high quality of life & are among the most civilised nations in the world. But that still doesn't explain why the U.S. isn't as they too are obviously among the civilised nations & quality of life. It's a good question.


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## Ortelius (Aug 22, 2011)

I think it can be somewhat difficult to speak about Europe in general, since countries are very diverse. Southern Europe is way more religious than North-Western Europe. (Edit: AlanJs posted about it.)

In Sweden we are encouraged to think critically and use logic and reasoning at a very early age. Most people tend to grow up with religion rather on the side, and not in it.

Do Americans study "religion" in public school? Because at least here in Sweden it's an obligatorily subject and I think this make most students aware of that there obviously isn't one supernatural truth about everything. 

Also, socialism.


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## Glacial (Jun 16, 2010)

Ortelius said:


> In Sweden we are encouraged to think critically and use logic and reasoning at a very early age. Most people tend to grow up with religion rather on the side, and not in it.
> 
> Do Americans study "religion" in public school?


I've always heard positive things about the culture of Sweden. Also, I am kind of obsessed, for some unknown reason to me with it, and am currently reading a book on Queen Christina, who is quite a fascinating leader.

No, Americans do not study religion in public schools, that I am aware of at least. Now at the college level, students usually take humanties, in which they may study various religious beliefs just to gain acceptance and knowledge for the various belief systems. Private schools, of course, usually have a religious foundation.


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## Ortelius (Aug 22, 2011)

Glacial said:


> I've always heard positive things about the culture of Sweden. Also, I am kind of obsessed, for some unknown reason to me with it, and am currently reading a book on Queen Christina, who is quite a fascinating leader.


Not to mention Queen Christina was very religious, converted and fled to the Vatican... if I'm not completely wrong.



Glacial said:


> No, Americans do not study religion in public schools, that I am aware of at least. Now at the college level, students usually take humanties, in which they may study various religious beliefs just to gain acceptance and knowledge for the various belief systems. Private schools, of course, usually have a religious foundation.


I think an introduction of religion or humanities as a subject in elementary/high-school could give good results in a few generations if you are after a more open-minded society. I'm sure you can convince your conservative friends to agree to this proposal, right? :b


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## ttrp (Feb 17, 2011)

Ortelius said:


> Also, socialism.


I have question for you somewhat unrelated to the original topic. Do you like the social safety net present in Sweden or do you think that it's excessive? Would you ever want to live in the U.S.? (I'd like to live in/move to Scandinavia.)


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## Ortelius (Aug 22, 2011)

ttrp said:


> I have question for you somewhat unrelated to the original topic. Do you like the social safety net present in Sweden or do you think that it's excessive?


The ruling right-leaning coalition is still supporting the strong social welfare system, even though they are engaging with tax cuts, privatization of state-owned business, and increasing class differences. But still I believe it exceeds anything in the U.S. Why support the social safety net? Because it's proven to work and so do I think. I have never heard anyone complaining about it either.



ttrp said:


> Would you ever want to live in the U.S.? (I'd like to live in/move to Scandinavia.)


It depends where I would live in the U.S. I'm usually quite open-minded to different ways of governing a country, but at the moment I'm a left-wing supporter, so I don't think the U.S. would be the right place to settle for me. It's mainly the inequality and the religion that turns me off.

Scandinavia is a nice place to live in, the countries here are somewhat more introverted than in Southern Europe. I think you would be welcome if you decided to move, especially if you're from USA.


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## Glacial (Jun 16, 2010)

Ortelius said:


> Scandinavia is a nice place to live in, the countries here are somewhat more introverted than in Southern Europe. I think you would be welcome if you decided to move, especially if you're from USA.


I, too, would like to at least visit Scandinavia, but not sure that I could deal with the temperatures there.


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## Lmatic3030 (Nov 3, 2011)

Ortelius said:


> I think it can be somewhat difficult to speak about Europe in general, since countries are very diverse. Southern Europe is way more religious than North-Western Europe. (Edit: AlanJs posted about it.)
> 
> In Sweden we are encouraged to think critically and use logic and reasoning at a very early age. Most people tend to grow up with religion rather on the side, and not in it.
> 
> ...


At the high school I went to their was a mandatory class in region my freshman year. Unfortunately I doubt it's taught in too many other states.


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## The Sleeping Dragon (Sep 29, 2011)

AlanJs said:


> Well we can't really compare a country to a continent because in some European countries like Italy, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, they are very religious.
> 
> Estimated countries where Atheism dominates with 50% or more:
> 
> ...


You will find a more reliable list on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe
(I didn't notice my country on your list. )


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## Selbbin (Aug 10, 2010)

A lower rate of ignorance.


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## ttrp (Feb 17, 2011)

Ortelius said:


> The ruling right-leaning coalition is still supporting the strong social welfare system, even though they are engaging with tax cuts, privatization of state-owned business, and increasing class differences. But still I believe it exceeds anything in the U.S. Why support the social safety net? Because it's proven to work and so do I think. I have never heard anyone complaining about it either.
> 
> It depends where I would live in the U.S. I'm usually quite open-minded to different ways of governing a country, but at the moment I'm a left-wing supporter, so I don't think the U.S. would be the right place to settle for me. It's mainly the inequality and the religion that turns me off.
> 
> Scandinavia is a nice place to live in, the countries here are somewhat more introverted than in Southern Europe. I think you would be welcome if you decided to move, especially if you're from USA.


Thanks for the response. I find it interesting that people are so supportive of social welfare in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries. In the States, "welfare " is often scorned. And don't even think about mentioning socialism around most people. Argh.


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

Despite the prevalence of secularism in westsern Europe there are still an awful lot of people who define themselves as catholic or protestant. Non-practicing catholics and prtoestants, in my view, are not catholics and protestants. These people make no sense to me...


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## theJdogg (Sep 18, 2009)

I think Fredbloggs2 captured it quite well in his first couple lines. We make up for our lack of real, long-term traditions by holding on to seemingly arbitrary things like religion and Halloween. We don't have the traditions dating back to thousands of years like some cultures, so we hold onto our little beliefs and traditions with gusto. Some, like christianity are a detriment to society. Others, like independence day and the superbowl (I have mixed feelings on this one) celebrate what makes America great.

Most of the cultures I've been to did only hollow observances of religious practices, meaning they went through the motions of the religion but didn't give two ****s about accepting the beliefs in their hearts. It's more a social expectation. They would chant or whatever then act like it had little bearing on their lives. I think a lot more Americans do this than foreigners think. There's a reason Christmas and Easter double normal church attendance. There's still a ton of preaching types here which always annoy me. 

Finally, We don't have a frame of reference other than our own for what's normal. We are very culturally isolated compared to Europe. It's not like most people here can hop on a 30 euro(based on my experience 5 years ago. Probably more expensive nowadays) flight to another country with a different history and culture. Canada is more secular but not that different culturally. Mexico's much more dangerous than the US. We also can see a whole bunch of different things within our own country, from the everglades of Florida to the desserts of Arizona to Glacier National Park in Montana. I often had to choose between seeing my own back yard or trips abroad. I usually chose to go abroad.


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## Glacial (Jun 16, 2010)

Ortelius said:


> Not to mention Queen Christina was very religious, converted and fled to the Vatican... if I'm not completely wrong.


Like I said, I am reading a book on Queen Christina now and I am not near the end yet, but at the point when she decides to convert to the Catholic Church, it sounds like she is more interested in the power that the Catholic Church has (i.e. controlling the masses). I could be completely wrong as I continue to read and may discover it was for purely religious reasons. She just isn't portrayed as the religious type in this text.


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## Ortelius (Aug 22, 2011)

Glacial said:


> Like I said, I am reading a book on Queen Christina now and I am not near the end yet, but at the point when she decides to convert to the Catholic Church, it sounds like she is more interested in the power that the Catholic Church has (i.e. controlling the masses). I could be completely wrong as I continue to read and may discover it was for purely religious reasons. She just isn't portrayed as the religious type in this text.


No, it was mainly guesses from my side. It was a long time since I read about the history of Queen Christina, and even then I didn't went through much of the details.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jonny neurotic said:


> Despite the prevalence of secularism in westsern Europe there are still an awful lot of people who define themselves as catholic or protestant. Non-practicing catholics and prtoestants, in my view, are not catholics and protestants. These people make no sense to me...


I think it's often just for lack of an alternative self classification and/or so as not to upset their parents/grandparents who are religious.

Give it another 20 years and there will be far less people who have that pressure and will likely be far more aware of the alternatives.

It takes time for culture to change and it will need another few generations to finally properly die out in Western Europe.


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

ugh1979 said:


> I think it's often just for lack of an alternative self classification and/or so as not to upset their parents/grandparents who are religious.
> 
> Give it another 20 years and there will be far less people who have that pressure and will likely be far more aware of the alternatives.
> 
> It takes time for culture to change and it will need another few generations to finally properly die out in Western Europe.


Have you ever visited northern Ireland?


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jonny neurotic said:


> Have you ever visited northern Ireland?


Haha well there are always pockets of difference. I'm sure it will fall in line in time.


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## jonny neurotic (Jan 20, 2011)

ugh1979 said:


> Haha well there are always pockets of difference. I'm sure it will fall in line in time.


I fear tribalism will not be disappearing any time soon. Even if the labels change it seems to be ingrained in the human genome. Perhaps genetic modification is in order. Lol...

EDIT: I know this is somewhat of a digression but I was originally commenting on the tribalistic use of these religious labels rather than on religious beliefs _per se_, which I think are in decline across Europe as they have been for some time. America is a paradox in that they are one of the most secular countries yet "atheist" is regarded as somewhat of a derogatory term. Not believing in god is fine but to be an atheist...


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## Lmatic3030 (Nov 3, 2011)

theJdogg said:


> I think Fredbloggs2 captured it quite well in his first couple lines. We make up for our lack of real, long-term traditions by holding on to seemingly arbitrary things like religion and Halloween. We don't have the traditions dating back to thousands of years like some cultures, so we hold onto our little beliefs and traditions with gusto. Some, like christianity are a detriment to society. Others, like independence day and the superbowl (I have mixed feelings on this one) celebrate what makes America great.
> 
> Most of the cultures I've been to did only hollow observances of religious practices, meaning they went through the motions of the religion but didn't give two ****s about accepting the beliefs in their hearts. It's more a social expectation. They would chant or whatever then act like it had little bearing on their lives. I think a lot more Americans do this than foreigners think. There's a reason Christmas and Easter double normal church attendance. There's still a ton of preaching types here which always annoy me.
> 
> Finally, We don't have a frame of reference other than our own for what's normal. We are very culturally isolated compared to Europe. It's not like most people here can hop on a 30 euro(based on my experience 5 years ago. Probably more expensive nowadays) flight to another country with a different history and culture. Canada is more secular but not that different culturally. Mexico's much more dangerous than the US. We also can see a whole bunch of different things within our own country, from the everglades of Florida to the desserts of Arizona to Glacier National Park in Montana. I often had to choose between seeing my own back yard or trips abroad. I usually chose to go abroad.


This was very well said.


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