# Why does science dismiss psychic powers?



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

When someone is asked to reproduce their psychic claims while under a camera and scrutiny why do they expect them to be able to do so? Why does science look at psychic powers the same way like they do chemical and physical experiments when psychic powers fall under human nature of not being able to be reproduced again and again under any and all circumstances. This is much like trying to get someone to sing a 1 hit wonder or paint a work of art while under those same conditions.


----------



## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

What's that joke... 
I once called a psychic hotline, and she said she saw a rather large phone bill in my future...


----------



## Choci Loni (May 12, 2011)

Science doesn't dismiss psychic powers because people haven't been able to manifest them in controlled experiments. Science dismisses psychic powers because there's no reliable empirical evidence for it whatsoever. That's just how science works.

Also, it's highly unlikely that psychic powers would ever be discovered to exist as they contradict basically everything we know about how the brain works. The whole field of neuroscience would have to be completely revised, potentially together with physics and whatnot.


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

If those sorts of abilities did exist there would have been a clear evolutionary advantage for having them, so natural selection would mean we'd pretty much all have them by now - much in the way we all have the ability to see and hear.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

Just Lurking said:


> What's that joke...
> I once called a psychic hotline, and she said she saw a rather large phone bill in my future...


There is none.

Well I do agree that there are a lot of people willing to prey on the greedy and lonely and vulnerable.

I was talking about people who say they have psychic powers but can't reproduce them in the lab. Like what gives with this.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

Choci Loni said:


> Science doesn't dismiss psychic powers because people haven't been able to manifest them in controlled experiments. Science dismisses psychic powers because there's no reliable empirical evidence for it whatsoever. That's just how science works.
> 
> Also, it's highly unlikely that psychic powers would ever be discovered to exist as they contradict basically everything we know about how the brain works. basically the whole field of neuroscience would have to be completely revised, potentially together with physics and whatnot.


The human aura (does such a thing even exist?) is what parapsychologists claim causes psychic powers to arise rather than the brain.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> When someone is asked to reproduce their psychic claims while under a camera and scrutiny why do they expect them to be able to do so? Why does science look at psychic powers the same way like they do chemical and physical experiments when psychic powers fall under human nature of not being able to be reproduced again and again under any and all circumstances. This is much like trying to get someone to sing a 1 hit wonder or paint a work of art while under those same conditions.


But why couldn't they demonstrate their psychic powers when being watched under scientific control standards? Any of them that make money from their alleged psychic powers clearly claim to be able to do it on request, otherwise they wouldn't be able to put on psychic shows, sessions, phone calls and the like.

How many times do you think someone gives money to an alleged psychic and the psychic tells them nothing?

Saying it can't be done under supervision is like someone claiming they have telekinetic powers but can only do them when no one is watching. It's an obvious sham.

James Randi offers $1m to anyone who can demonstrate any supernatural powers, and to date no one who has tried has been able to show they do. What does that tell you? Money talks, and if they can't demonstrate it in return for $1m, then they can't do it at all IMO.


----------



## mimu (Feb 16, 2015)

'Reproduced' again and again? There has never been a successful example of a psychic, and no, making 1000 predictions with 1 or 2 eventually becoming true doesn't make someone a psychic. Do you just find it painfully coincidental that psychics never predict anything with confidence, it's all just ambiguous nonsense? They can never predict the lottery numbers, they can never predict someone's death, they can never predict anything. 'Psychics' are the scum of the earth, they know perfectly well that they're scam artists. I particularly despise the ones who claim to talk to the dead and contaminate desperate and emotionally vulnerable people's memories of their loved ones.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

mimu said:


> 'Reproduced' again and again? There has never been a successful example of a psychic, and no, making 1000 predictions with 1 or 2 eventually becoming true doesn't make someone a psychic. Do you just find it painfully coincidental that psychics never predict anything with confidence, it's all just ambiguous nonsense? They can never predict the lottery numbers, they can never predict someone's death, they can never predict anything. 'Psychics' are the scum of the earth, they know perfectly well that they're scam artists. I particularly despise the ones who claim to talk to the dead and contaminate desperate and emotionally vulnerable people's memories of their loved ones.


If they don't profit from their claims then they are just deceitful/dishonest people, but I agree that if they profit from their claims then they are deceitful/dishonest absolute scum.

I was delighted to see Rosa Marks, an alleged psychic, get 10 years in jail for her scamming. I think the law should seek to prosecute many alleged psychics who take peoples money.


----------



## mimu (Feb 16, 2015)

ugh1979 said:


> If they don't profit from their claims then they are just deceitful/dishonest people, but I agree that if they profit from their claim then they are deceitful/dishonest absolute scum.


Yep, I agree. I should've worded it better.



ugh1979 said:


> I was delighted to see Rosa Marks, an alleged psychic, get 10 years in jail for her scamming. I think the law should seek to prosecute many alleged psychics who take peoples money.


It's crazy how someone can basically disguise theft as trying to help someone and get away with it. They need to crack down on all these quacks, 'Psychics', Tarot readers, spiritual healers etc.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> But why couldn't they demonstrate their psychic powers when being watched under scientific control standards? Any of them that make money from their alleged psychic powers clearly claim to be able to do it on request, otherwise they wouldn't be able to put on psychic shows, sessions, phone calls and the like.


I'd say most are FOS and the one's who believe they genuinely have psychic powers (I wonder how they come to that conclusion) probably can't perform under those circumstances out of fear of failing and being thought a humbug.



> How many times do you think someone gives money to an alleged psychic and the psychic tells them nothing?


Countless times. A good, yet dishonest business. Someone I know got scammed $15k.



> Saying it can't be done under supervision is like someone claiming they have telekinetic powers but can only do them when no one is watching. It's an obvious sham.


In most cases I would agree but one could argue that it's more to do with human nature to not be able to perform such feats while being monitored closely since causing psychic effects probably needs a certain state of mind which would obviously be rather delicate and easily broken while under scrutiny.



> James Randi offers $1m to anyone who can demonstrate any supernatural powers, and to date no one who has tried has been able to show they do. What does that tell you? Money talks, and if they can't demonstrate it in return for $1m, then they can't do it at all IMO.


The people participating are probably not well skilled enough  And people who claim to do such things but do not show them probably do not want money nor the attention over being able to perform such feats since to them these things are no big deal and are seen simply as a side effect from spiritual practices like meditation and yoga. Whereas in western culture performing something like telekinesis makes people think w.t.f!!! and the performer is lavaished with all this attention which goes to feed their already over-inflated ego. This reason alone reserves these sorts of skills to people who are not looking for a way to boost their own egos. Not to mention anything about boosting their bank balance.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

mimu said:


> 'Reproduced' again and again? There has never been a successful example of a psychic, and no, making 1000 predictions with 1 or 2 eventually becoming true doesn't make someone a psychic. Do you just find it painfully coincidental that psychics never predict anything with confidence, it's all just ambiguous nonsense? They can never predict the lottery numbers, they can never predict someone's death, they can never predict anything. 'Psychics' are the scum of the earth, they know perfectly well that they're scam artists. I particularly despise the ones who claim to talk to the dead and contaminate desperate and emotionally vulnerable people's memories of their loved ones.


Physics are well skilled in the art of fooling people. An example is when they 'contact' the dead. They throw out the most common names. When they hit a name people think this dude is for real. Another example is the psychic will bring up the cause of death and will say it was a heart attack. Heart attack is a leading cause of death and likely to be the cause if the dead relative died in old age. This just leads to more belief the psychic is totally real and the person is more willing to part with their money for more information coming from the dead relative.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> I'd say most are FOS and the one's who believe they genuinely have psychic powers (I wonder how they come to that conclusion) probably can't perform under those circumstances out of fear of failing and being thought a humbug.


I don't buy that at all. If many of them can apparently do it with TV cameras on them in front of an audience then they should be able to do with when being observed by a less credulous audience.



> Countless times. A good, yet dishonest business. Someone I know got scammed $15k.


So sometimes people turn up, the psychic says it's an 'off day' and they can't tell them anything, and people hand over money anyway? :? I can't think of any service where people pay to be given absolutely nothing.

I'd suggest it never happens, and in practice the psychic can always apply the skills and knowledge of cold reading etc to maintain the illusion that they have supernatural powers.



> In most cases I would agree but one could argue that it's more to do with human nature to not be able to perform such feats while being monitored closely since causing psychic effects probably needs a certain state of mind which would obviously be rather delicate and easily broken while under scrutiny.


I'd say that's far too convenient, considering as I say, many claim to be able to do it on cue in front of an audience/TV cameras.

Bear in mind there are people like Derren Brown who can do exactly the same thing but admits it's not psychic powers but just cold reading and other psychological tricks.

His testimony alone debunks any psychics claims, and he's actually a lot better than most of them at pulling off the illusion.



> The people participating are probably not well skilled enough  And people who claim to do such things but do not show them probably do not want money nor the attention over being able to perform such feats since to them these things are no big deal and are seen simply as a side effect from spiritual practices like meditation and yoga. Whereas in western culture performing something like telekinesis makes people think w.t.f!!! and the performer is lavaished with all this attention which goes to feed their already over-inflated ego. This reason alone reserves these sorts of skills to people who are not looking for a way to boost their own egos. Not to mention anything about boosting their bank balance.


That's a massive cop out to say the people who actually have the skill just don't want the $1m/attention/validation. These people often make a living from their proclaimed ability, so to turn down such money and subsequent business isn't believable IMO.

Their absence is far more obviously explained by their lack of true supernatural ability.


----------



## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

Just Lurking said:


> What's that joke...
> I once called a psychic hotline, and she said she saw a rather large phone bill in my future...


 I called them once just to see what would happen. I'd lost the TV remote. She said to look down in the couch. I'll be damned if it wasn't there. Of course I could have thought of that myself. Something tells me she was just guessing. :lol


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> I don't buy that at all. If many of them can apparently do it with TV cameras on them in front of an audience then they should be able to do with when being observed by a less credulous audience.


Well that goes to show psychic performers are FOS because psychic manifestations require a lot of mental and physical preparation beforehand to get even slight phenomena to occur otherwise they would cause themselves mental and even physical damage. And what sort of abilities are we talking about? No psychic performer attempts physical effects like psychokinesis, pyrokinesis, cyrokinesis, materialization, levitation and teleportation since fooling an audience would be much harder or impossible unlike the class of psychic abilities that psychological tricks can mimick.

And let's not just restrict this to tv personalities. A lot of people believe they have psychic abilities of some sort but simply don't know how they do them or pull them off, they just happen sporadically so that could also explain why they would fail under scrutiny.



> So sometimes people turn up, the psychic says it's an 'off day' and they can't tell them anything, and people hand over money anyway? :? I can't think of any service where people pay to be given absolutely nothing.


A lot of psychics probably don't have full control of their abilities and so can't be expected to perform all the time or when someone asks or demands them to. But yes I do believe over 99.9% that make it a business are using tricks of some sort.



> I'd say that's far too convenient, considering as I say, many claim to be able to do it on cue in front of an audience/TV cameras.
> 
> Bear in mind there are people like Derren Brown who can do exactly the same thing but admits it's not psychic powers but just cold reading and other psychological tricks.
> 
> His testimony alone debunks any psychics claims, and he's actually a lot better than most of them at pulling off the illusion.


That's why psychic performers stick to mind reading and contacting the dead skills because they're the one's they can pull off convincingly. I believe people would probably not be able to perform psychic abilities on demand in front of a camera since it would require a lot more preparation and relaxed state of mind than a person would be in front of a camera. This also goes to show these performers are a crock and they even admit it!!! Also like I mentioned before there would be a lot of people out there (forget tv personalities) believing they have psychic abilities but don't know how they do them and so have no real control over them and so would not be able to perform under scientific scrutiny.



> That's a massive cop out to say the people who actually have the skill just don't want the $1m/attention/validation. These people often make a living from their proclaimed ability, so to turn down such money and subsequent business isn't believable IMO.
> 
> Their absence is far more obviously explained by their lack of true supernatural ability.


Yeah but the one's making a living from it are the one's who are scam artists and liars who have no abilities other than tricking people. That's why they won't come forward when money is offered because they know they'd be caught out. The people who are likely to have any real abilities would be people like monks and others involved in meditation and spiritual practices who don't go around claiming psychic abilities and don't do this thing for a living and are simply not interested in attention or money or any validation and see no purpose in coming forward to prove once and for all that psychic abilities exist.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

WillYouStopDave said:


> I called them once just to see what would happen. I'd lost the TV remote. She said to look down in the couch. I'll be damned if it wasn't there. Of course I could have thought of that myself. Something tells me she was just guessing. :lol


You could of just googled it and would of got the same answer.


----------



## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

jimity said:


> You could of just googled it and would of got the same answer.


 Not in 1994 I wouldn't have.


----------



## bluecrime (Jan 27, 2013)

Simply because there is no proof to support their existence.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> Well that goes to show psychic performers are FOS because psychic manifestations require a lot of mental and physical preparation beforehand to get even slight phenomena to occur otherwise they would cause themselves mental and even physical damage.


How do you know this?



> And what sort of abilities are we talking about? No psychic performer attempts physical effects like psychokinesis, pyrokinesis, cyrokinesis, materialization, levitation and teleportation since fooling an audience would be much harder or impossible unlike the class of psychic abilities that psychological tricks can mimick.


I'm talking about any claims of psychic powers. Some are more easily faked than others of course.



> And let's not just restrict this to tv personalities. A lot of people believe they have psychic abilities of some sort but simply don't know how they do them or pull them off, they just happen sporadically so that could also explain why they would fail under scrutiny.


The people who think they are psychic are inevitably just fooling themselves due to some logical fallacy or cognitive ignorance. It's when something happens that they erroneously think they knew about that can lead to it being perceived as sporadic.

It's like people who think that the fact they were thinking of someone then that person phones means they are psychic!











> A lot of psychics probably don't have full control of their abilities and so can't be expected to perform all the time or when someone asks or demands them to. But yes I do believe over 99.9% that make it a business are using tricks of some sort.


So why do you believe there is 0.1% that are real?



> That's why psychic performers stick to mind reading and contacting the dead skills because they're the one's they can pull off convincingly. I believe people would probably not be able to perform psychic abilities on demand in front of a camera since it would require a lot more preparation and relaxed state of mind than a person would be in front of a camera. This also goes to show these performers are a crock and they even admit it!!! Also like I mentioned before there would be a lot of people out there (forget tv personalities) believing they have psychic abilities but don't know how they do them and so have no real control over them and so would not be able to perform under scientific scrutiny.


Surely at least one of them would want or be able to though? Or be able to provide evidence, like certifiably documenting something that hadn't happened before it happened?

The absolute absence of these people or evidence infers nobody has the ability.



> Yeah but the one's making a living from it are the one's who are scam artists and liars who have no abilities other than tricking people. That's why they won't come forward when money is offered because they know they'd be caught out. The people who are likely to have any real abilities would be people like monks and others involved in meditation and spiritual practices who don't go around claiming psychic abilities and don't do this thing for a living and are simply not interested in attention or money or any validation and see no purpose in coming forward to prove once and for all that psychic abilities exist.


How convenient. It sounds more like you are desperately trying to find a way to justify your desire for psychics to be real.

Your argument sounds like someone who beleive there is a monster under their bed, but claims the monster doesn't want to be seen, so won't reveal itself. It's very smoke and mirrors.


----------



## BAH (Feb 12, 2012)

My prediction is there will be more responses to this thread..now I accept only cash.


----------



## Zyriel (May 20, 2011)

Like others said, no proof. However, the CIA and the Soviet Union, possibly the Nazis and Communist China as well, have done research on "remote viewing" though which can probably be thought of as precognition. A lot of that information is still classified I think too lol, not sure exactly. Can probably find documents through the freedom of information act, at least on the U.S. research. However, most of the lines would probably be blacked out due to national security interests, making the documents almost illegible. And honestly, if someone did have psychic powers or what not, they would probably keep it to themselves unless they wanted to be a lab experiment :b


----------



## Cmasch (Jan 24, 2015)

Someone mentioned the James Randi 1 million dollar offer, If someone could do it "and just doesn't because they are nice and humble". Why not do it and donate the money to charity? Not only would you prove you are a psychic,you could do it for a good cause. The answer is because they can't....lol


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> How do you know this?


The optimal conditions to perform psychic stuff requires deep bodily relaxation, a mental trance to lower brain wave frequency. This is what I read.



> The people who think they are psychic are inevitably just fooling themselves due to some logical fallacy or cognitive ignorance. It's when something happens that they erroneously think they knew about that can lead to it being perceived as sporadic.


Look at psychokinesis - moving objects-- videos on youtube and you'll see people demonstrating their abilities and even people making comments that they practiced and can also do it. If these people really believe that have these abilities I don't see how they are only fooling themselves into believing they have psychic powers when they are moving objects right before their eyes!! If they are simply blowing on the object to make it move and believed they had psychokinetic powers then they are seriously delusional.

You might not take youtube videos for hard evidence and would argue that they are tricking people but what's the point of them explaining to people how to do these things and giving away information about it. They're not charging money and don't seem to be after fame. Do you think they haven't got anything better to do and just get their kicks from tricking people?



> It's like people who think that the fact they were thinking of someone then that person phones means they are psychic!


If it happens more than 50 times out of 100 then one could say they have psychic power but 10 out of every hundred then no. But what about moving physical objects? That sort of thing doesn't happen one out of every 100 or 1000 or even million times when you think about something moving by itself does it? So if someone is attempting psychokinesis and they do it you can't sit there saying that was related to chance like the telephone example. That was a demonstration of real psychic power!



> So why do you believe there is 0.1% that are real?


Because I don't dismiss this stuff. Psychic powers aren't a recent thing. These things date back thousands of years and are mentioned in various books about meditation. So I think there would be at least some people able to do something described as psychic.



> Surely at least one of them would want or be able to though? Or be able to provide evidence, like certifiably documenting something that hadn't happened before it happened?


I think at least one should be able to. But again they offer explanations for it like other people's disbelief of psychic powers interferes with their abilities. Are they lying? Who knows. But the fact they can't perform does lend weight to the fact that they might be lying. But maybe the people who can do these things don't even know about James Randi or have even thought about showing these things off to the world.



> How convenient. It sounds more like you are desperately trying to find a way to justify your desire for psychics to be real.


I don't dismiss psychic powers because I've read about them and seen demonstrations. But if you think I'll just except any psychic demonstration without questioning it's validity then you are wrong. There was one video of a guy on youtube who set fire to a newspaper with what he claimed to be chi from his hands. When I saw the paper start to burn I thought that guy was for real until I saw the fire started out suspiciously purple and that's when I knew he was fake. Other ones include a guy most likely using a laser pointer outside the visible spectrum of light to burn a cup and some paper and passing it off as the ability to burn things with psychic power.

Wouldn't you think some people just have extraordinary abilities that others don't or that need to practice real hard to get them, like a talented artist or having a unique talent? Can you explain how science shows that psychic powers simply cannot exist and how they violate known laws of physics.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> The optimal conditions to perform psychic stuff requires deep bodily relaxation, a mental trance to lower brain wave frequency. This is what I read.


I read that you need to hold a cat and both be wearing tinfoil hats in order to get your brain in the right frequencies.










:lol

Seriously though, my point is that reports of what you need to do in order to achieve it are nonsense in the absence of evidence of the claimed ability.



> Look at psychokinesis - moving objects-- videos on youtube and you'll see people demonstrating their abilities and even people making comments that they practiced and can also do it. If these people really believe that have these abilities I don't see how they are only fooling themselves into believing they have psychic powers when they are moving objects right before their eyes!! If they are simply blowing on the object to make it move and believed they had psychokinetic powers then they are seriously delusional.


Psychokinetic demonstrations always end up being due to the use of magicians thread or magnets or the like. It's among the most easy of thing to fake on a Youtube video. People go to a lot more trouble to fake many other things in Youtube videos.



> You might not take youtube videos for hard evidence and would argue that they are tricking people but what's the point of them explaining to people how to do these things and giving away information about it. They're not charging money and don't seem to be after fame. Do you think they haven't got anything better to do and just get their kicks from tricking people?


They aren't looking for fame but are posting videos claiming they have special powers on a video site that has 4 billion videos streamed on it everyday? Come on! Many people love the attention, and if they are fraudulent or delusional is irrelevant.

And yes, people do get their kicks from tricking others. All the time.



> If it happens more than 50 times out of 100 then one could say they have psychic power but 10 out of every hundred then no. But what about moving physical objects? That sort of thing doesn't happen one out of every 100 or 1000 or even million times when you think about something moving by itself does it? So if someone is attempting psychokinesis and they do it you can't sit there saying that was related to chance like the telephone example. That was a demonstration of real psychic power!


Well since nobody has ever be able to correctly guess who is phoning them more than 50% of the time we can dismiss that claim (unless they only have 1 or 2 people that ever phone them :lol), and likewise, nobody has ever been able to demonstrate psychokinesis so we can dismiss that claim. (Under scientific test conditions of course, as otherwise it can't be trusted not to be fraudulent)



> Because I don't dismiss this stuff. Psychic powers aren't a recent thing. These things date back thousands of years and are mentioned in various books about meditation. So I think there would be at least some people able to do something described as psychic.


That's some bizarre reasoning. Just because people have been making supernatural claims for thousands of years doesn't mean any of them have supernatural powers. That's just testament to the nonsense people traditionally come out with.

The desire for the supernatural to be real bears no relation on its actuality.



> I think at least one should be able to. But again they offer explanations for it like other people's disbelief of psychic powers interferes with their abilities. Are they lying? Who knows. But the fact they can't perform does lend weight to the fact that they might be lying. But maybe the people who can do these things don't even know about James Randi or have even thought about showing these things off to the world.


If someone says they can only demonstrate their psychic powers to people who believe in psychics then you should know they are fraudulent. It's very easy to fool those who are happy to believe what they are being fooled with.

It's true some people who genuinely think they have psychic powers won't have heard of Randi's $1m offer, but it's been around for a long time and is often cited in such discussions. Many alleged psychics have tried for it, but none have passed.

The fact that money has been on offer since the 60's yet remains unclaimed speaks volumes for the credibility of the claim.

Randi's isn't the only prize for demonstrating evidence of the paranormal either. Here's a long list.



> I don't dismiss psychic powers because I've read about them and seen demonstrations. But if you think I'll just except any psychic demonstration without questioning it's validity then you are wrong. There was one video of a guy on youtube who set fire to a newspaper with what he claimed to be chi from his hands. When I saw the paper start to burn I thought that guy was for real until I saw the fire started out suspiciously purple and that's when I knew he was fake. Other ones include a guy most likely using a laser pointer outside the visible spectrum of light to burn a cup and some paper and passing it off as the ability to burn things with psychic power.


OK so you aren't so credulous to believe just anything you are told or shown, but why do you believe some of what you have read and seen on the subject then? Couldn't it just be because you don't know how those examples are done? Any good magician or psychological illusionist can do amazing things that people would once have thought meant they had supernatural powers.

I find it bizarre the vast majority of people no longer think magicians have supernatural powers but many still think psychics do. The only difference is the magician deals with physical manipulation and psychics deal with mental manipulation.



> Wouldn't you think some people just have extraordinary abilities that others don't or that need to practice real hard to get them, like a talented artist or having a unique talent?


Some people can do things others can't, but making claims that some people can perform psychokinesis, breath underwater, summon the dead or fly etc can't be shown to be among them.



> Can you explain how science shows that psychic powers simply cannot exist and how they violate known laws of physics.


It shows that they do not exist, not that they cannot exist. That's a distinct difference. If evidence ever emerges that they do then so be it, until then, it can be dismissed as easily as any other fantastical claim.


----------



## hoddesdon (Jul 28, 2011)

Actually shortly before New Year in 2003 a psychic's predictions included "Canberra is vulnerable" and the bushfire happened on January 19.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

hoddesdon said:


> Actually shortly before New Year in 2003 a psychic's predictions included "Canberra is vulnerable" and the bushfire happened on January 19.


A classic example of retrospectively anything negative that happened to someone/someplace to fit the ambiguous claim.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> Seriously though, my point is that reports of what you need to do in order to achieve it are nonsense in the absence of evidence of the claimed ability.


Holding a cat and wearing a tin foil hat won't do anything to change a person's brainwave frequency. Whereas deep physical relaxation and mental focus will. I don't see why you're mocking that assertion.



> Come on! Many people love the attention, and if they are fraudulent or delusional is irrelevant.
> 
> And yes, people do get their kicks from tricking others. All the time.


There are magic tricks on youtube that reveal how you can do psychokinesis and they do involve either strings or magnets or even using the heat from your hands so watching someone claiming to be performing real psychokinesis becomes more easily obvious their using tricks since I know how their doing it. But the videos showing supposedly real psychokinesis don't seem like they are. Maybe they're making objects move with some other trick involved but until someone can give me an explanation on how it's done then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.



> That's some bizarre reasoning. Just because people have been making supernatural claims for thousands of years doesn't mean any of them have supernatural powers. That's just testament to the nonsense people traditionally come out with.


Well I don't see any purpose for someone to mention that if you do this or that meditation or spirtitual practice you might find yourself developing psychic powers. Psychic powers were not the desired result of their spiritual development and were not emphasized and were and are still infact discouraged since people undertaking these practices would be driven away from further development. Cmon! These aren't attention grabbers like youtubers. They're not teaching people how to do psychic things or play tricks on people they're simply telling people if they ever notice psychic power to not encourage the development of it and to ignore it.

Why do people make supernatural claims even thousands of years ago. If they aren't after fame or fortune or attention or just doing it out of fun to make people believe in bs then what's the point? Did they have some sort of experience they can't explain such as hallucinations or vivid lucid dreams where they performed seemingly impossible feats and so began to think they have psychic power.



> It's true some people who genuinely think they have psychic powers won't have heard of Randi's $1m offer, but it's been around for a long time and is often cited in such discussions. Many alleged psychics have tried for it, but none have passed.
> 
> The fact that money has been on offer since the 60's yet remains unclaimed speaks volumes for the credibility of the claim.


Well I could say the same about scientists claiming they'll have fusion power producing power to society. How long have they been saying that they'll have it up and running? Same goes for curing diseases. With all the money being thrown at scientists to come up with cures for cancer nobody can cure it. No amount of money can make someone do something even though it would be possible.



> OK so you aren't so credulous to believe just anything you are told or shown, but why do you believe some of what you have read and seen on the subject then? Couldn't it just be because you don't know how those examples are done? Any good magician or psychological illusionist can do amazing things that people would once have thought meant they had supernatural powers.


It's mentioned in books and techniques for personal development on the net. If I found out people who claimed to be legit and were giving information about how to do these things and then they turned around and said they were joking about psychic powers all along and that they never existed and only said they did to see how easily they could lie to people then I'd give up my belief of psychic powers that person has. Or if I knew how such a thing like making a piece of paper spin from a few meters away by someone wearing a dust mask was done and it was done with someone else blowing on it from behind the camera or something generating small air currents then of course I'd disbelieve.



> I find it bizarre the vast majority of people no longer think magicians have supernatural powers but many still think psychics do. The only difference is the magician deals with physical manipulation and psychics deal with mental manipulation.


"Supernatural" is something we used to describe something we don't understand as of yet. A magician making something seem to appear out of nowhere is seen as supernatural or magic to someone who doesn't understand how it was done. Whereas if a person did actually make something appear out of nowhere with no tricks involved it's supernatural only because we (science) doesn't yet understand it. But if it was studied and understood how it was done it falls out of the supernatural.



> It shows that they do not exist, not that they cannot exist. That's a distinct difference. If evidence ever emerges that they do then so be it, until then, it can be dismissed as easily as any other fantastical claim


It shows they don't exist. Is that because nobody has ever demonstrated it? But it is possible for them to exist? Is that just like me saying there isn't a pink fairy flying around my room because I haven't seen it but that it indeed could possibly exist?


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> Holding a cat and wearing a tin foil hat won't do anything to change a person's brainwave frequency.
> 
> Whereas deep physical relaxation and mental focus will. I don't see why you're mocking that assertion.


It's the assertion that meditation/focus can lead to psychic powers i'm comparing to putting tin foil hats on feline friends giving one supernatural powers. 



> There are magic tricks on youtube that reveal how you can do psychokinesis and they do involve either strings or magnets or even using the heat from your hands so watching someone claiming to be performing real psychokinesis becomes more easily obvious their using tricks since I know how their doing it. But the videos showing supposedly real psychokinesis don't seem like they are. Maybe they're making objects move with some other trick involved but until someone can give me an explanation on how it's done then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.


So you think you should be able to see how the ones that don't show how the trick is done are done? It's a poor trick that lets the viewer see how it was done.

It's incredibly credulous and very naive to think that the videos which don't show you how they are done are in fact real, when you know fine well that there are plenty videos that show you exactly how they do things like that.

It's beggars belief to give them the benefit of the doubt.



> Well I don't see any purpose for someone to mention that if you do this or that meditation or spirtitual practice you might find yourself developing psychic powers.


It was you who is making the claim that it is a prerequisite to true psychic powers!



> Psychic powers were not the desired result of their spiritual development and were not emphasized and were and are still infact discouraged since people undertaking these practices would be driven away from further development. Cmon! These aren't attention grabbers like youtubers. They're not teaching people how to do psychic things or play tricks on people they're simply telling people if they ever notice psychic power to not encourage the development of it and to ignore it.


What are you basing these claims on? Do you speak for all true psychics in that none of them are interested in proving their abilities, making money from them or becoming famous?

I'm not sure who you are talking about when you say "they" don't encourage its practice.

Are you the spokesperson for the psychics guild or something? :?



> Why do people make supernatural claims even thousands of years ago.


Supernatural claims are often made due to ignorance or confusion about how aspects of the universe work. In antiquity, this was of course even more prevalent that it is now. The allure of the supernatural is huge, so many people are keen to credulously believe in supernatural claims.



> If they aren't after fame or fortune or attention or just doing it out of fun to make people believe in bs then what's the point?


We'd need to find people who aren't doing it for any of those reasons and ask them. Everyone has motivations for their behaviour.



> Did they have some sort of experience they can't explain such as hallucinations or vivid lucid dreams where they performed seemingly impossible feats and so began to think they have psychic power.


Undoubtedly yes people have experiences which are subject to logical fallacies, cognitive biases and other faulty lines of reasoning to arrive at supernatural conclusions. Arguments from ignorance abound.



> Well I could say the same about scientists claiming they'll have fusion power producing power to society. How long have they been saying that they'll have it up and running? Same goes for curing diseases. With all the money being thrown at scientists to come up with cures for cancer nobody can cure it. No amount of money can make someone do something even though it would be possible.


Development in nuclear fusion and cures for cancer is always progressing. For the record, there are many types of cancer that are effectively curable. There just isn't a universal one yet. The fact you think both issues should be solved by now because X amount of money and time has been invested is bizarre, and simply ignorant of those fields.



> It's mentioned in books and techniques for personal development on the net. If I found out people who claimed to be legit and were giving information about how to do these things and then they turned around and said they were joking about psychic powers all along and that they never existed and only said they did to see how easily they could lie to people then I'd give up my belief of psychic powers that person has. Or if I knew how such a thing like making a piece of paper spin from a few meters away by someone wearing a dust mask was done and it was done with someone else blowing on it from behind the camera or something generating small air currents then of course I'd disbelieve.


So the fact that they don't reveal that they are lying/fooling you means you give them the benefit of the doubt that they aren't? :?

I'll retract what I said about you not being credulous. You are falling hook line and sinker for these charlatans.



> "Supernatural" is something we used to describe something we don't understand as of yet. A magician making something seem to appear out of nowhere is seen as supernatural or magic to someone who doesn't understand how it was done. Whereas if a person did actually make something appear out of nowhere with no tricks involved it's supernatural only because we (science) doesn't yet understand it. But if it was studied and understood how it was done it falls out of the supernatural.


To the contrary, the vast majority of people have no idea how magicians perform most of their illusions, yet very few believe them to be supernatural. Not knowing how something is done doesn't/shouldn't automatically mean you think it's supernatural.

That's why it's a double standard to think the magician isn't using supernatural powers but the psychic is, even though you don't know how either is done.

This infers that people _want _to believe the psychic has supernatural powers (especially if they are telling them personal details), where as most people are happy to believe magicians tricks are just illusions.

It's classic cognitive bias.



> It shows they don't exist. Is that because nobody has ever demonstrated it? But it is possible for them to exist? Is that just like me saying there isn't a pink fairy flying around my room because I haven't seen it but that it indeed could possibly exist?


Yes the fact nobody has been able to show it to exist (as with your pink fairy example), means we can say with a high degree but not absolute certainty that it doesn't exist. This is why science deals in approximations of truth rather than proofs since certain claims are unfalsifiable as you can't prove a negative.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> So you think you should be able to see how the ones that don't show how the trick is done are done? It's a poor trick that lets the viewer see how it was done.
> 
> It's incredibly credulous and very naive to think that the videos which don't show you how they are done are in fact real, when you know fine well that there are plenty videos that show you exactly how they do things like that.
> 
> It's beggars belief to give them the benefit of the doubt.


I don't see why it's a poor trick if they decide to reveal how it was done.

You think I'm saying I think that videos that don't reveal on purpose how to do psychic powers tricks are 100% real. I'm saying if they say they are doing it with some psychic power I'll shrug my shoulders at it and say er maybe it's real but if someone else can do this same thing and show it can be done via a trick then I'll say the person claiming real psychic power is a fake unless I see that person perform it front of me with my own eyes and not on camera.



> It was you who is making the claim that it is a prerequisite to true psychic powers!


Meditation is not a prerequisite to psychic development but a recommended one.



> What are you basing these claims on? Do you speak for all true psychics in that none of them are interested in proving their abilities, making money from them or becoming famous?
> 
> I'm not sure who you are talking about when you say "they" don't encourage its practice.
> 
> Are you the spokesperson for the psychics guild or something? :?


They have their own reason for it. Maybe that person simply might not be interested or might even have sa and not be willing to come forward.

Go study yoga or something like that. "They" as in teachers of meditation. I believe they're not in the business of psychic powers and will likely tell their students not to pursue psychic development if they want to "stay on the path" and obtain "enlightment" or whatever they're after when they undertake meditation practice. You might be confusing the two.

I'm simply telling you what I've read that a person might notice psychic phenomena while developing themselves spiritually. What I'm asking is why would a person who writes a meditation book mention something about psychic powers might arise from the practice be making this up for?



> We'd need to find people who aren't doing it for any of those reasons and ask them. Everyone has motivations for their behaviour.


Maybe a monk in Tibet.



> So the fact that they don't reveal that they are lying/fooling you means you give them the benefit of the doubt that they aren't? :?
> 
> You are falling hook line and sinker for these charlatans.


If I haven't paid money for it then I'll stay open minded about their claims of certain psychic powers like psychokinesis but really I'm doubting them in the back of my mind. Mediums, palms readers and fortune tellers I wouldn't believe a word they say or simply laugh at their claims.



> To the contrary, the vast majority of people have no idea how magicians perform most of their illusions, yet very few believe them to be supernatural. Not knowing how something is done doesn't/shouldn't automatically mean you think it's supernatural.
> 
> That's why it's a double standard to think the magician isn't using supernatural powers but the psychic is, even though you don't know how either is done.


I should of said if I went to a tribe of people who don't know about modern technology and never saw a magician perform and took a few phones to show them what they can do. They might assume it's something supernatural. Same like showing them magic tricks. They'd think I had some power most likely. And what I was trying to say is if something currently seen as supernatural like psychokinesis is demonstrated for real then only when science understands it will society begin to see it as no longer supernatural.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> I don't see why it's a poor trick if they decide to reveal how it was done.


I mean if people can see how it's done without intentionally demonstrating how it's done. Such an amatuar magician who isn't very good at sleight of hand.



> You think I'm saying I think that videos that don't reveal on purpose how to do psychic powers tricks are 100% real. I'm saying if they say they are doing it with some psychic power I'll shrug my shoulders at it and say er maybe it's real but if someone else can do this same thing and show it can be done via a trick then I'll say the person claiming real psychic power is a fake unless I see that person perform it front of me with my own eyes and not on camera.


I'm saying that you giving the benefit of the doubt to the videos you see that you can't explain is credulous.



> Meditation is not a prerequisite to psychic development but a recommended one.


Yes i'm sure alleged psychics you believe in have told you that. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny though.



> They have their own reason for it. Maybe that person simply might not be interested or might even have sa and not be willing to come forward.


Maybe so, but what do you think the chances are of none of them being interested in recognition, fame or money? It's terrible apologetics to say the reason is because they don't want what are among the primary drivers of human behaviour.



> Go study yoga or something like that. "They" as in teachers of meditation. I believe they're not in the business of psychic powers and will likely tell their students not to pursue psychic development if they want to "stay on the path" and obtain "enlightment" or whatever they're after when they undertake meditation practice. You might be confusing the two.


I can assure you teachers of meditation don't all subscribe to beliefs in psychic powers! In fact, i'd be willing to be only a fraction do. Feel free to go find some stats on it though.



> I'm simply telling you what I've read that a person might notice psychic phenomena while developing themselves spiritually.


That follows as people who think they develop themselves "spiritually" are more prone to delusions such as psychic abilities. They are likely naturally quite credulous people.



> What I'm asking is why would a person who writes a meditation book mention something about psychic powers might arise from the practice be making this up for?


Come on? Do you really need me to tell you that someone mentioning a benefit of following their meditation guides is supposed psychic abilities is going to help their sales? :roll



> Maybe a monk in Tibet.


Do you know any? :b



> If I haven't paid money for it then I'll stay open minded about their claims of certain psychic powers like psychokinesis but really I'm doubting them in the back of my mind. Mediums, palms readers and fortune tellers I wouldn't believe a word they say or simply laugh at their claims.


Well i'm glad you aren't completely credulous about certain things, but it's irrational to be open to things like psychokinesis being real based on the fact you have seen alleged videos of it on Youtube which you haven't seen how they do it. Especially when you know there are plenty videos which show how other people perform psychokinesis illusions.



> I should of said if I went to a tribe of people who don't know about modern technology and never saw a magician perform and took a few phones to show them what they can do. They might assume it's something supernatural. Same like showing them magic tricks. They'd think I had some power most likely. And what I was trying to say is if something currently seen as supernatural like psychokinesis is demonstrated for real then only when science understands it will society begin to see it as no longer supernatural.


OK, but since science has investigated the likes of psychokinesis and thoroughly debunked its legitimacy to date, why are you open to it being real? Doesn't being open to it make you like the one of the tribe members who has never seen a phone and thinking it's supernatural?


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> I mean if people can see how it's done without intentionally demonstrating how it's done. Such an amatuar magician who isn't very good at sleight of hand.


And once you know how a certain trick is done it's easier to see how it's being done when someone else does it and to see if they're doing a trick.



> I'm saying that you giving the benefit of the doubt to the videos you see that you can't explain is credulous.


But it's not like I won't be thinking of ways of how that person could be faking it. If someone is claiming they can do something like psychokinesis I think it's good to see if they are telling the truth and not just brushing them off completely. Much like James Randi. He give those people a go to prove themselves.



> Maybe so, but what do you think the chances are of none of them being interested in recognition, fame or money? It's terrible apologetics to say the reason is because they don't want what are among the primary drivers of human behaviour.


The sorts of people who can do seemingly extraordinary things that get themselves in the guinness book of records I've never even heard of them. They're not on tv or in the paper. If someone wants fame and money they'd go be actors and not psychic. Takes a lot more than being a one trick pony to get famous and become a household name. And again, a person who could perform real psychic power probably couldn't repeat it again and again on tv and in a lab like an illusionist could. Fear of failure and being seen as a fake could keep them away.



> I can assure you teachers of meditation don't all subscribe to beliefs in psychic powers! In fact, i'd be willing to be only a fraction do. Feel free to go find some stats on it though.


I'd say so and would further go on to say if they're are people out there able to do real power then they are probably very rare.



> That follows as people who think they develop themselves "spiritually" are more prone to delusions such as psychic abilities. They are likely naturally quite credulous people.


So you think people who really believe they have psychic powers are hallucinating them (if I use psychokinesis as an example)? I suppose you would include this also to claims of people seeing ghosts and ufos?



> Come on? Do you really need me to tell you that someone mentioning a benefit of following their meditation guides is supposed psychic abilities is going to help their sales? :roll


I never said they said it was a benefit, more like the opposite. The books on meditation I have read only briefly mention psychic powers that were developed by some people who did meditation long ago in the past and do not even say it's a benefit of their meditation technique and simply bring it up to warn people about becoming fixated on enhancing any flowering abilities that might happen like increased intuition. More spectacular feats like psychokinesis are not touched upon. They do not go on to explain to a person how to try to develop psychic powers. So the question is why bring up warnings about psychic powers for? Maybe you see it as a sneaky marketing tactic? There are books dedicated to psychic development and meditation books are not them. And also there are FREE articles on the internet about meditation and psychic development so your argument about it being mentioned to make money is invalid :b



> Do you know any? :b


No but apparently they're into that sort of thing.



> Well i'm glad you aren't completely credulous about certain things, but it's irrational to be open to things like psychokinesis being real based on the fact you have seen alleged videos of it on Youtube which you haven't seen how they do it. Especially when you know there are plenty videos which show how other people perform psychokinesis illusions.


Perhaps but I'm far more irrational in social situations and so don't let my irrationality affect you.



> OK, but since science has investigated the likes of psychokinesis and thoroughly debunked its legitimacy to date, why are you open to it being real? Doesn't being open to it make you like the one of the tribe members who has never seen a phone and thinking it's supernatural?


I haven't studied the science debunking it thoroughly enough to change my openness and belief about it. It's like reading a science text book. Most people blindly accept that scientists are telling the truth and haven't made mistakes and just believe what they're told. Until they go on to look further about a subject and if what is being said by someone or a bunch of people is true and if there is anything to back up what they say they aren't likely to update their belief about the topic.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> The sorts of people who can do seemingly extraordinary things that get themselves in the guinness book of records I've never even heard of them. They're not on tv or in the paper. If someone wants fame and money they'd go be actors and not psychic. Takes a lot more than being a one trick pony to get famous and become a household name. And again, a person who could perform real psychic power probably couldn't repeat it again and again on tv and in a lab like an illusionist could. Fear of failure and being seen as a fake could keep them away.


The difference between holding something the record for how many eggs you can fit in your mouth and actually having supernatural powers is huge!

The latter would be headline news around the world if it was shown to be true, and the person who had said power would be a household name.

As I say, not being able to perform it for anyone who might scrutinise it's legitimacy is just terrible apologetics.



> So you think people who really believe they have psychic powers are hallucinating them (if I use psychokinesis as an example)? I suppose you would include this also to claims of people seeing ghosts and ufos?


Yes, in the case of psychokinesis it would be hallucinations. People are often great at thinking they saw things happen that didn't.



> I never said they said it was a benefit, more like the opposite. The books on meditation I have read only briefly mention psychic powers that were developed by some people who did meditation long ago in the past and do not even say it's a benefit of their meditation technique and simply bring it up to warn people about becoming fixated on enhancing any flowering abilities that might happen like increased intuition. More spectacular feats like psychokinesis are not touched upon. They do not go on to explain to a person how to try to develop psychic powers. So the question is why bring up warnings about psychic powers for? Maybe you see it as a sneaky marketing tactic? There are books dedicated to psychic development and meditation books are not them.


Well you're changing your story now to them being warnings about psychic powers. You didn't previously mention that. Either way, there is a lot of New Age woo people buy into and that often involves claims and guides for telepathy, magic crystals, auras, meditation etc. It's only meditation that actually has some merit.



> And also there are FREE articles on the internet about meditation and psychic development so your argument about it being mentioned to make money is invalid :b


People often make money from people visiting their websites for free content via the likes of advertising clicks. Either way, I didn't say that every time it's mentioned is a money making ploy, but when it is promoted it in the product being sold it clearly does.



> I haven't studied the science debunking it thoroughly enough to change my openness and belief about it. It's like reading a science text book. Most people blindly accept that scientists are telling the truth and haven't made mistakes and just believe what they're told. Until they go on to look further about a subject and if what is being said by someone or a bunch of people is true and if there is anything to back up what they say they aren't likely to update their belief about the topic.


Well maybe you should then.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> The difference between holding something the record for how many eggs you can fit in your mouth and actually having supernatural powers is huge!
> 
> The latter would be headline news around the world if it was shown to be true, and the person who had said power would be a household name.
> 
> As I say, not being able to perform it for anyone who might scrutinise it's legitimacy is just terrible apologetics.


People claiming psychic powers before they are debunked never seem to show up on the news or in the paper. If done under test conditions then it might appear in the headlines. At the very least they might become well known among the psychic community.

What about the people who took up the challange to win a $million. If the people taking up the challenge knew they were fakes do you think they would go since they'd know they were going to get found out? Seems like a major risk.



> Yes, in the case of psychokinesis it would be hallucinations. People are often great at thinking they saw things happen that didn't.


And with the case of ufos and ghost I suppose multiple people seeing the same thing that would mean mass hallucination.

Maybe people with real psychic powers don't actually do anything other than alter people's perception to make them see things they otherwise wouldn't see. Viewing a psychic levitating and trying to study it and film it can't be done because only perception was altered and not laws of physics broken. So a person who has real psychokinesis can't really moving an object but can alter a person's perception so that to them they see the object moving.



> Well you're changing your story now to them being warnings about psychic powers. You didn't previously mention that. Either way, there is a lot of New Age woo people buy into and that often involves claims and guides for telepathy, magic crystals, auras, meditation etc. It's only meditation that actually has some merit.


I'm not changing the story but pointing out something else I thought of at the time of writing. Discouragment from and also warnings about trying to develop psychic powers is what meditation books mention when and if they mention psychic development.



> People often make money from people visiting their websites for free content via the likes of advertising clicks. Either way, I didn't say that every time it's mentioned is a money making ploy, but when it is promoted it in the product being sold it clearly does.


Doesn't necessarily mean it's just a grab for people's cash since the people looking for developing psychic powers are the one's genuinely interested in them. And people just looking for meditation will skip over the material they don't want.


----------



## EMPx (Nov 2, 2014)

Science is unbiased. Requires proof.


----------



## Passacaglia (Mar 4, 2015)

This may have been mentioned before, but the American and Soviets spent a lot of time and money investigating psychic powers to find (well, as much as they have disclosed) absolutely nada. I think currently there's one study that suggested that something sort of like remote viewing might exist, but it could just be some sort of human factor that lead to the result and a lot more work has to go into proving it exists.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> People claiming psychic powers before they are debunked never seem to show up on the news or in the paper. If done under test conditions then it might appear in the headlines. At the very least they might become well known among the psychic community.


That's because the mainstream media can't trust them. They would be ridiculed for reporting such things which are known to be fraudulent in every case scrutinised to date.

It would be like reporting on the existence for unicorns.



> What about the people who took up the challange to win a $million. If the people taking up the challenge knew they were fakes do you think they would go since they'd know they were going to get found out? Seems like a major risk.


The people who have taken up the challenge must obviously believe they have supernatural powers. There are obviously people who think they do.



> And with the case of ufos and ghost I suppose multiple people seeing the same thing that would mean mass hallucination.
> 
> Maybe people with real psychic powers don't actually do anything other than alter people's perception to make them see things they otherwise wouldn't see. Viewing a psychic levitating and trying to study it and film it can't be done because only perception was altered and not laws of physics broken. So a person who has real psychokinesis can't really moving an object but can alter a person's perception so that to them they see the object moving.


Well there are perception illusions that can be done, as displayed by people like David Blaine and Uri Geller. It's just mental manipulation though, so not anything supernatural.

As I've said though, if there was anything supernatural going on, there would no reason why a more discerning/scrutinising person wouldn't be able to experience it if it was indeed real.



> I'm not changing the story but pointing out something else I thought of at the time of writing. Discouragment from and also warnings about trying to develop psychic powers is what meditation books mention when and if they mention psychic development.


If some truly are warning about psychic powers emerging as a result of mediation, then at least some must also promote them.



> Doesn't necessarily mean it's just a grab for people's cash since the people looking for developing psychic powers are the one's genuinely interested in them. And people just looking for meditation will skip over the material they don't want.


Either way, it's a selling point for some people.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> That's because the mainstream media can't trust them. They would be ridiculed for reporting such things which are known to be fraudulent in every case scrutinised to date.


Maybe.. but may it could be the elite are suppressing information about it and don't want reports of it 



> The people who have taken up the challenge must obviously believe they have supernatural powers. There are obviously people who think they do.


One guy who claimed to be able to move objects with his mind took up the challenge and moved a pencil and turned a page in a phone book without touching it but was accused of simply blowing air since after placing pieces of foam around the phone book to see if he was blowing air he claimed to no longer be able to turn the page in the book. If he was really just blowing on the objects I don't see why he'd believe he had some kind of power. Maybe he thought nobody would notice.



> Well there are perception illusions that can be done, as displayed by people like David Blaine and Uri Geller. It's just mental manipulation though, so not anything supernatural.
> 
> As I've said though, if there was anything supernatural going on, there would no reason why a more discerning/scrutinising person wouldn't be able to experience it if it was indeed real.


Maybe psychics are merely powerful hypnotists and can cause people to see things that really aren't happening.

Scientists are probably resistant to suggestions and so it never works with those people. Only people who are suggestible.



> If some truly are warning about psychic powers emerging as a result of mediation, then at least some must also promote them.


But the people disapproving of psychic development and not promoting it, I don't see money being the reason behind bringing up the topic. Maybe it's just they believe in that stuff because they believe the stories of monks and yogis being able to levitate and tun in visible and other stuff. But that doesn't explain why students sometimes report back psychic phenomena.



> Either way, it's a selling point for some people.


So you just see it as them trying to sell snake oil because there are people out there who are suckers for this stuff.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> Maybe.. but may it could be the elite are suppressing information about it and don't want reports of it


That's just conspiracy nonsense.



> One guy who claimed to be able to move objects with his mind took up the challenge and moved a pencil and turned a page in a phone book without touching it but was accused of simply blowing air since after placing pieces of foam around the phone book to see if he was blowing air he claimed to no longer be able to turn the page in the book. If he was really just blowing on the objects I don't see why he'd believe he had some kind of power. Maybe he thought nobody would notice.


Maybe he was too stupid to realise it was his breath that was moving the objects? It wouldn't surprise me. Many people are quick to attribute erroneous causes to effects.



> Maybe psychics are merely powerful hypnotists and can cause people to see things that really aren't happening.


Well there is a lot of psychological manipulation going on with any type of psychic.



> Scientists are probably resistant to suggestions and so it never works with those people. Only people who are suggestible.


Indeed, i.e. credulous people. More discerning people can more often tell when they are being tricked.



> But the people disapproving of psychic development and not promoting it, I don't see money being the reason behind bringing up the topic. Maybe it's just they believe in that stuff because they believe the stories of monks and yogis being able to levitate and tun in visible and other stuff. But that doesn't explain why students sometimes report back psychic phenomena.


I didn't say they were. I was when you first mentioned it, as you hadn't mentioned that they were disapproving of it at that point. Mentioning it at all is suspect though. Telling people to be careful they don't develop psychic powers is a dubious thinly veiled cover IMO.

As for people reporting psychic phenomena, many people do that anyway, as certain people are keen to believe in it or manage to fool themselves into thinking they have psychic powers.



> So you just see it as them trying to sell snake oil because there are people out there who are suckers for this stuff.


Tales of the supernatural are often lapped up by the masses, so yes it is snake oil. Psychics and the like who take money from people are scum, and i'd say the rest are on morally shaky ground.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> Maybe he was too stupid to realise it was his breath that was moving the objects? It wouldn't surprise me. Many people are quick to attribute erroneous causes to effects.


The guy was James Hydrick.. not stupid, just practiced at blowing air out of his lungs without it being obvious to others. Very convincing performances.



> Mentioning it at all is suspect though. Telling people to be careful they don't develop psychic powers is a dubious thinly veiled cover IMO.


Well I don't know of any marketing tactic trying to sell stuff by telling people NOT to by their products or warning that their products are dangerous :lol



> As for people reporting psychic phenomena, many people do that anyway, as certain people are keen to believe in it or manage to fool themselves into thinking they have psychic powers.


Then how do you explain this psi wheel moving under a glass with the guy wearing a face mask?


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> Well I don't know of any marketing tactic trying to sell stuff by telling people NOT to by their products or warning that their products are dangerous :lol


Dangerous as in - "Warning, this product may give you supernatural powers." It's reverse psychology.



> Then how do you explain this psi wheel moving under a glass with the guy wearing a face mask?


I don't know how every trick is done, but surprise surprise that video is a promo for his website where he's trying to sell people things.

Shall I post videos of David Copperfield or the like making elephants or whatever disappear as evidence for them having supernatural powers?


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> I don't know how every trick is done, but surprise surprise that video is a promo for his website where he's trying to sell people things.
> 
> Shall I post videos of David Copperfield or the like making elephants or whatever disappear as evidence for them having supernatural powers?


I've gone to his website and there is a simple tutorial on how to do the things he claims he can do. If you discard all the stuff he's selling, the information is free.

Magicians are not claiming supernatural powers and there are plenty of "how to" videos on youtube on illusions and other magic tricks so you won't need to post any. The psi wheel can be done with tricks and there are videos showing how to but under glass nobody can debunk it.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> I've gone to his website and there is a simple tutorial on how to do the things he claims he can do. If you discard all the stuff he's selling, the information is free.


Luring people in with free stuff so you can sell them stuff is basic marketing. The guy's a scumball fraud, pure and simple.



> Magicians are not claiming supernatural powers and there are plenty of "how to" videos on youtube on illusions and other magic tricks so you won't need to post any. The psi wheel can be done with tricks and there are videos showing how to but under glass nobody can debunk it.


You mean nobody you know of.

It took me 3mins to find the answer which debunks this trick being telekinesis:



> In the first video, a pin sized hole was drilled in both the surface of the table as well as the plastic bowl the set up was sitting on. From there, a person off camera was blowing into a tube that was connected to this hole (under the table) which cause the wheel to spin. The second video used this same principle, but in a more sophisticated fashion. The surface of the table is hollow, with two separate air channels going to two different pin holes. Two tubes could "plug in" to each hole on the hollowed legs, which were hidden by thin layer of laminate that could pop on and off. This is why you can't see the bottoms of the two front legs on the video when the wheel is spinning.


You may want to read the full comments made by person who demonstrated the same trick and revealed how it was done as quoted above:


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> The guy's a scumball fraud, pure and simple.


Well he does turn off the sound when recording his performances and later adds his voice on which is very suspicious. Plus all the spoons he shows he bended were all done off camera :lol And he did say in his video there were no tricks or holes in the table or bowl he was using. I mean wow!! how believable when someone says there are no tricks involved and the excuses they come up with as to why they don't use tricks. He even made a debunking video of himself which could just be him mocking both skeptics and believers of him.

Though that doesn't explain why in the comments some people are saying they can also do these things after a few weeks of training. And there are also other videos where he makes a street light dim out and makes clouds disperse.



> You mean nobody you know of.
> 
> It took me 3mins to find the answer which debunks this trick being telekinesis:
> 
> You may want to read the full comments made by person who demonstrated the same trick and revealed how it was done as quoted above:


Good video. I knew there had to be a way of doing this. Now you might think the people who believed that video to be a real display of power are gullible but don't forget that guy had everyone fooled. You just have to read how hardcore skeptics thought they were so smart thinking they knew how that trick was being done (probably had backgrounds in science) and they were all totally wrong :lol

Hardcore skeptics just dismiss psychic powers altogether simply because there is no scientific evidence to back it up but do these skeptics ever actually undertake the sort of training that psychics and meditators say to do in order to awaken and build psychic powers? They just try to explain it away with current scientific understanding and won't even take the time to practice to try to gain personal experience with supernatural powers and I don't think that's being very fair. I bet if a performance was done in front of a bunch of hardcore skeptics and everything was checked for trickery they still wouldn't believe it simply because it goes against their scientific beliefs and also because it wasn't done under scientific test conditions such as in a vacuum to rule out air currents from potential heat sources such as light affected it. But I bet light particles would be the scientific explanation for. So they'd have to do it in the dark. What explanation after that? Something to do with quantum particles or something.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> Though that doesn't explain why in the comments some people are saying they can also do these things after a few weeks of training. And there are also other videos where he makes a street light dim out and makes clouds disperse.


The people in the comments are clearly frauds as well, and his other videos will also undoubtedly be fraudulent. I can think of ways he could make it appear he can dim street lights and make clouds disperse. In the same respect, I could easily shoot a video that made it appear I was controlling the rising of the sun by correlating my actions with it's movement.

People are easily fooled into making causation errors.



> Good video. I knew there had to be a way of doing this. Now you might think the people who believed that video to be a real display of power are gullible but don't forget that guy had everyone fooled. You just have to read how hardcore skeptics thought they were so smart thinking they knew how that trick was being done (probably had backgrounds in science) and they were all totally wrong :lol
> 
> Hardcore skeptics just dismiss psychic powers altogether simply because there is no scientific evidence to back it up but do these skeptics ever actually undertake the sort of training that psychics and meditators say to do in order to awaken and build psychic powers? They just try to explain it away with current scientific understanding and won't even take the time to practice to try to gain personal experience with supernatural powers and I don't think that's being very fair. I bet if a performance was done in front of a bunch of hardcore skeptics and everything was checked for trickery they still wouldn't believe it simply because it goes against their scientific beliefs and also because it wasn't done under scientific test conditions such as in a vacuum to rule out air currents from potential heat sources such as light affected it. But I bet light particles would be the scientific explanation for. So they'd have to do it in the dark. What explanation after that? Something to do with quantum particles or something.


Hardcore skeptics are primarily led by scientific method and resulting evidence. In principle nothing is against scientific beliefs if it can be shown to be scientifically sound, and said beliefs constantly change and adapt as we learn more about the universe.

If there was a demonstration which defined scrutiny, the demonstrator could claim the millions of dollars worth of prizes I previously mentioned, yet none do. That's a killer blow to any such claims.

Believing that there might be something in such supernatural claims is typically a road to being shown to have been foolish/credulous, since such demonstrations have to date always been shown to be fraudulent or non-supernatural. Therefore, it would undoubtedly be a waste of time and counter to one's intelligence to undergo the training said to be required in order to gain such alleged supernatural powers.

Once something has been debunked enough there is seldom reason to entertain it's plausibility. That's not to say it can't be retested again and again, but it's unreasonable to keep doing so. At a certain point it's more sensible to accept that it's just nonsense and can be dismissed.


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> The people in the comments are clearly frauds as well, and his other videos will also undoubtedly be fraudulent.


The guy answers his critics in capitals saying THERE IS SCIENTIFIC PROOF FOR PSYCHIC POWER AND FOR ALL SKEPTICS TO GET OVER THAT FACT. Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research and https://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/telepathy-has-been-scientifically-proven-to-be-real/ are what he says is scientific proof and the fact it isn't mainstream is the same reason we don't hear about water powered engines and various other things he claims is being hidden from the public by the government.



> Believing that there might be something in such supernatural claims is typically a road to being shown to have been foolish/credulous, since such demonstrations have to date always been shown to be fraudulent or non-supernatural. Therefore, it would undoubtedly be a waste of time and counter to one's intelligence to undergo the training said to be required in order to gain such alleged supernatural powers.


That's a cop out. Trying to study psychic power with people claiming psychic power is a poor way to carry out any experiments in the first place since those claiming power are usually found to be lying or have drawn the wrong conclusion and so in the end is a waste of time. Why not get people who haven't claimed psychic powers and do the actual training that is described in books and articles on the net and that can include the scientists who want to study it themselves. This costs very little money and perhaps a few months of training. If then there are no observed psychic effects after following the process then they can come to their conclusions.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> The guy answers his critics in capitals saying THERE IS SCIENTIFIC PROOF FOR PSYCHIC POWER AND FOR ALL SKEPTICS TO GET OVER THAT FACT. Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research and https://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/telepathy-has-been-scientifically-proven-to-be-real/ are what he says is scientific proof and the fact it isn't mainstream is the same reason we don't hear about water powered engines and various other things he claims is being hidden from the public by the government.


If he's using capitals he must be right then! Internet conspiracy wingnuts usually are. :roll



> That's a cop out. Trying to study psychic power with people claiming psychic power is a poor way to carry out any experiments in the first place since those claiming power are usually found to be lying or have drawn the wrong conclusion and so in the end is a waste of time. Why not get people who haven't claimed psychic powers and do the actual training that is described in books and articles on the net and that can include the scientists who want to study it themselves. This costs very little money and perhaps a few months of training. If then there are no observed psychic effects after following the process then they can come to their conclusions.


Wait, you think that hasn't already happened and its negation of providing psychic effects well established in credible journals? :?


----------



## jimity (Jan 12, 2011)

> If he's using capitals he must be right then! Internet conspiracy wingnuts usually are. :roll


No it looks like he was trying to get his point across to people who deliver him the F word. Fake.



> Wait, you think that hasn't already happened and its negation of providing psychic effects well established in credible journals? :?


So people have carried out research and undertaken so-called psychic training and it's all been proven to be worthless has it? Well I'm not aware if it has. I've only seen a few cases of psychic claims being studied like a case of that woman from Russia and I don't believe I've read about anything about training.


----------



## to err is human (Mar 8, 2015)

*well....*

As the title suggested, you give scientific approach some credit at least. 
My personal opinion (I declare now in advance, that I'm a pawn in this context, have no relevant education, so just trying to think logically), is that psychic powers (e.g. telekinesis) would inevitably require actual force (kinetic energy) to be applied to actual matter (physical entity, atoms of any kind, those of air, bowl or water). Assuming that human brain has capability to remotely altering any physical structures in any way, must be highly improbable at best (but probably already proven to be impossible). 
Brain is evolved to deal with information it receives via the nervous system. Think of a radio receiver. It translates the incoming radio waves into electronic signals, subsequently resonating the speaker's membrane, but it's incapable of sending out radio signals.


----------



## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

jimity said:


> No it looks like he was trying to get his point across to people who deliver him the F word. Fake.


Yeah of course he's going to cite conspiracy theories and the like in response. It's always the last desperate retort of such frauds.

Anytime someone wants to promote something there is no credible evidence for they can just say there is a conspiracy theory against it for whatever absurd reasoning they have dreamt up.



> So people have carried out research and undertaken so-called psychic training and it's all been proven to be worthless has it? Well I'm not aware if it has. I've only seen a few cases of psychic claims being studied like a case of that woman from Russia and I don't believe I've read about anything about training.


Yes it's an area that has been well researched and debunked. The issue is like beating a dead horse.

Some people are just desperate to want it to be true though.


----------

