# Stuff my therapist said that really helped today



## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Hullo

Recently I had a phone call with my mum. She phones all the damn time and mostly I dont feel in a mood to talk - but sometimes Im ok and so I think 'oh maybe this will be alright'. So I picked up the other day, and for once it actually seemed like she might be half listening ... but then clearly she wasnt, and then basically told me I was selfish for not considering her needs ... BANG .. I flipped out. "Angry child" mode here we come ... so I emailed my therapist with a moment by moment account of my mode shifts after the event. Here is what she replied. I just wanted to show you how nice she is!



> Thanks for your emails. I'm really struck by your growing awareness of your modes and your ability to detect when you are flipping in and out of modes. Interactions with your mum very clear activate many of your schemas and it is therefore very understandable that a mode state will then occur. It seems like the relationship is constantly invalidating of your needs, and therefore replicates what happened to you when you were little. What makes it harder is your mum's inability to see where she has gone wrong, its almost as if she isnt aware of you having needs at all (definite links to emotional deprivation schema here). The post phonecall guilt and detachment is again maybe replicating how you used to feel whenever you asked for your needs to be met. Although it was scary, and maybe didnt result in the consequence you hoped for, actually confronting your mum was a really brave thing to do. Accepting that she might not be capable of responding in the way you want her to to is going to be a big hurdle, but will allow you the chance to choose 'healthier' people who are able to meet your needs. You are already doing this by accessing therapy, and by choosing friendships with people who are more nurturing, as you are currently doing.
> 
> The tricky thing about schema work is that you will feel sensitised as your awareness grows. The first phase of schema therapy is always about monitoring, which you are doing very actively at the moment. It is hard not to feel like you want to 'do something' with the modes, whereas maybe at the moment, awareness is enough. What we need to focus on is helping you develop your healthy adult, and nurture your vulnerable/abandoned child. Both these things will take time, but I have every confidence that you can do it. You do have a strong healthy adult in there - I've seen him! The images of self harm may be linked to the fact that all of this stuff is coming up to the surface and you are understandably looking for a way to manage the feelings, and maybe to detach from them completely. These images (or indeed carrying them out) serves this function in the short term, but evidently have less than pleasant consequences.
> 
> Hang in there Ross, I think this is what we'd call the 'storming' phase! *You are sitting with your feelings rather than finding unhelpful coping strategies all the time, and that feels worse in the short term.*


I am going to try that more - to sit with bad feelings instead of trying to detach or distract. :yes

Wow look at all this online psychotherapy experience thats going on ... AndyLT, Ardie, me 

Whee

Ross


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

*Re: The words of a therapist*

Wow, that's really cool!


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Isnt it? Its like finally I feel Im on the right track with this BPD shenanigans  And see how NICE therapists can be too!  I wanted people to see that :yes

I know yours is nice. Are you still seeing sorceress? Aww she would be sad to hear us call her that  We are mean :spank


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

I think my main stressor is my lack of vision for the future, and Sorceress has been trying to help me out with that to some extent. I'm letting her borrow Reinventing Your Life, as she has heard of it but not read it. I'm assuming she wants to borrow it, as she asked if I could bring it in to my session this Saturday. I'm finding that my interaction with her does give me a boost of motivation now, so I think it's a positive experience.

I've been targeting Social Isolation with my efforts to meet people, but I think I need to really go after Subjugation as a primary focus now...which feels far more powerful and significant as I continue to observe my feelings more and more. My feelings just scream subjugation and emotional deprivation every time I think about my childhood.

Hmm... I do have therapist envy though... Will you deliver her to Cleveland? I'll let my kitty climb you if you convince her to make a weekly flight to see me.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

LOL deal!!! I wanna climbing kittie!

If you are struggling with emotional expression, which you will need for attacking subjugation, then doing ED first MIGHT be better cos its all about being expressive but about good stuff too, not just assertion. The ED one might be starting easier, though they do normally say in schema that you should start at the MOST DAMAGING SCHEMA first. SO mabbe figure out which one that is?


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> LOL deal!!! I wanna climbing kittie!
> 
> If you are struggling with emotional expression, which you will need for attacking subjugation, then doing ED first MIGHT be better cos its all about being expressive but about good stuff too, not just assertion. The ED one might be starting easier, though they do normally say in schema that you should start at the MOST DAMAGING SCHEMA first. SO mabbe figure out which one that is?


Yeah, I thought I'd go for the most damaging schema, which I do think is subjugation. The lack of assertiveness, staying in situations in which my voice isn't heard (this goes into emo dep though too), following orders at great cost to myself, avoiding disappoval/conflict at all costs by trying to appease, etc. Every day I get this sense of feeling "trapped" or a prisoner of my current life situation. It seems so hard to imagine that I could dramatically change the situation, even though I did do it when I moved out here a year ago.

Emotional deprivation definitely contributes since I rarely ask that my needs be met (or even more common with me, not recognizing that specific emotional needs do exist...just noticing the sense of disconnectedness and stress that results when I don't feel that people understand/empathize with me).

This job evaluation might happen today..................... If it does, it's going to be HURRICANE SCHEMA!

The psychiatrist asked me if I felt angry that people didn't seem to understand/empathize with me, and I explained how I very rarely ever feel anger... if anything, it's just stress and possibly a vague frustration. She said that was just the result of suppressing anger. It's scary to think that I might have some massive anger buried down deep though!


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

quite often music is a great way to get out buried anger. You should she the state of my poor drumsticks after a bit of use ... do you play any instrument? Get a cheap electric cuitar and pracftice amp, crank up th overdrive and see what happens ...


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

I mess around with an acoustic guitar sometimes, but not often enough where I learn a great deal. I think the more noticeable desire of expression would be expressing the feeling of not being validated or empathized with rather than any sort of anger though. 

I'm a huge Elliott Smith fan, although the music sometimes makes me feel kind of bad, as good as it is.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

music speaks to whats inside - if it makes you feel bad, go with it. Its opening you up! Personally I have been enjoying this lately. Guess my predominant mood:

[youtube:1xqiguj2]



[/youtube:1xqiguj2]


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Murderous rage?


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## griff (Apr 18, 2008)

Sorry to butt in like this - but it sounds like your therapist is actually using transactional analysis - the system you said was just for aiding social chit chat when I suggested it in Self-help resources!

She said in her email:
'What we need to focus on is helping you develop your healthy adult, and nurture your vulnerable/abandoned child.'

It may be useful for you to look into TA if you're serious about being a therapist yourself.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

No, thats schema and the modes come purely from schema research. They were developed to deal with BPD. I know what youre talking about with TA and its not the same thing.

TA does not talk about using depersonalisation and dissociation as a coping measure for emotional pain (detached protector). TA is talking about conversational referece points - COMMUNICATING as an adult, or a child and so on.

Modes are about almost discrete personalties - if you like, moods that are cut off from one another and all consuming. Angry child would see the sufferer acting in blind rage, taking swipes at others, uncontrollable anger that damages them and others. Its a way of feeling, behaving ... of being. It is one of the most painful modes there are, apart from punitive parent, whcih is where you feel filthy, dark, vile, undeserving. You verbally abuse yourself and FEEL lower than scum. You may cut yourself. In the Vulnerable Child you may become paranoid and feel others want to attack and harm you. It effects your experience of life itself. It is not a communicatory device between therapist and client, though the mode seeks to help the client identify those feelings as a seoarate identity so as to have some control over them. As they are ways that the person is trying to get emotional needs met, and is being frustrated, they are massively turbulent. The idea is to educate the person how to get those emotional needs met so that he naturally becomes the healthy adult - as opposed to modfiying only his communication. Its not about how the therapist and client communicate - although later in therapy the modes try to talk to one another - within the one person - the client.

Im sorry of you think i should have given TA more credence. You may have seen the list of things i HAVE tried and considering where I am in that list, having found something that is working for me (and having cured my SA with CBT - this therapy is for Borderline Persoanlity Disorder - NOT SA. I do not have SA anymore) I am not placing to much emphasis anymore on searching for answers. After a 15 year search Im quite happy I have found what I need. TA may work for you and I hope it does, but personally I do not hold any faith in the system.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

ardrum said:


> Murderous rage?


Frequently


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## griff (Apr 18, 2008)

Thanks - v. interesting stuff. Sorry to hear that you have been in such pain and glad your current system is working.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> > Murderous rage?
> ...


Have you ever seen Office Space? That's basically my life, minus the romance and promotions for admitting my lack of motivation.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Nooo I dont watch any TV at all  I hate it!


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> Nooo I dont watch any TV at all  I hate it!


It's a movie. I only watch movies these days (I don't even subscribe to any TV since I also detest most of it).


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## AndyLT (Oct 8, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> music speaks to whats inside - if it makes you feel bad, go with it. Its opening you up! Personally I have been enjoying this lately. Guess my predominant mood:


Sad, angry, interesting and beautiful world:
[youtube:18siztyf]



[/youtube:18siztyf]


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

AndyLT said:


> yeah_yeah_yeah said:
> 
> 
> > music speaks to whats inside - if it makes you feel bad, go with it. Its opening you up! Personally I have been enjoying this lately. Guess my predominant mood:
> ...


Ahhh, memories. I first saw that video several years ago. It's a good one! The feeling of not being accepted/empathized with is so strong.

I'm a huge Sigur Ros fan! :yes


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Well that was depressing as all hell

Thanks :cry


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> Well that was depressing as all hell
> 
> Thanks :cry


Does this help?


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

OMFG I am PISSING my freakin PANTS!!!

SUPER-LOL!!!!


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Here's another for you:


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Mehh naa that one just caused sexual frustration 

That dude is hilarious though


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## Caligula (Apr 16, 2008)

...


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

It is generally felt that if you are suffering acute anxiety symptoms (or any axis I symptom such as depression, ocd, eating disorder) that you should undergo CBT (possibly with meds) to lower the acute symptoms before the characteroligical part can be helped. However I am not sure if this would be the case if you were diagnosed BPD.

Can you get a parent or someone to go with you to the docs to get a diagnosis? In the secondary disorders thread I have posted a thing about BPD symptoms, it may be useful to read that and see if you really identify with them. This may inform the conversation you have with a doc - but be careful not to try to shoehorn yourself into the categories. If they really click for you, and you have many examples and ongoing experience of them, then that is a 'fit'.


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## AndyLT (Oct 8, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> Well that was depressing as all hell
> 
> Thanks :cry


It's all about the meaning you assign to event.

I've read on YouTube, that some guys call this video as "coming out" moment. In CBT language, the emotional inhibition of these fellows is over.

So this video is about courage, about believing in oneself. It's a victorious event. :kiss


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

dude

did you just kiss me?

is that ok in eastern europe?

:lol J/K ....


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## AndyLT (Oct 8, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> dude
> 
> did you just kiss me?
> 
> ...


 :kiss


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Or when you say coming out ... is it like, hes playing with dolls so hes gay? I thought the dolls were like, his only friends and a screen projecting his feeling onto, but his dad saw it as meaning his son was weak.

I dunno I didnt watch the whole thing ....


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## AndyLT (Oct 8, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> Or when you say coming out ... is it like, hes playing with dolls so hes gay? I thought the dolls were like, his only friends and a screen projecting his feeling onto, but his dad saw it as meaning his son was weak.
> 
> I dunno


These guys are definitely gays. 
And being gay=unacceptable behavior in that little community.

Dolls symbolize sensitivity to me. Or looking at the world differently....

You should watch the whole thing. :yes


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

yeah_yeah_yeah said:


> I dunno I didnt watch the whole thing ....


Yeah, you'd have to see the rest. 

The dolls could though definitely also imply loneliness (in addition to the norm-breaking aspect of boys playing with dolls) on the part of the one boy.


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## Caligula (Apr 16, 2008)

...


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

if you have it, seeking treatment sooner rather than later is probably the single best piece of advice i can give you

as i look back, if i could have had a 12 year head start, to allow me to avoid endless lost friendships, arguments, fights, emotional explosions and lost jobs, then i would have given anything for it. BPD leaves you in a state of desperation and emptiness much of the time and the senation that no one will ever be close to you, or be there for you. If you are not feeling this then perhaps you have something else. If you are afraid of seeing a therapist then that is understandable, but the firghtening part only lasts a short time. Then your BPD will kick in and you will love your therapist to bits and have trouble being out of their sight ... 



Get checked up, now rather than waste the next 12 years of your life. BPD is that serious.


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## tainted_ (Feb 20, 2008)

I was diagnosed with BPD and I really loved my psychiatrist and I was really opening up to her and felt like she was helping me a lot but then she said she didn't think it was working out and didn't want to see me anymore se aso felt I was becomin reliant on her because she can see I get "seperation anxiety" or something, she referred me to someone else who I hated and I have tried a few other people but didn't like them and now have given up


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

^^^
Do you think you were too reliant on her? Were you contacting her a lot outside of sessions? It just seems strange for a therapist to do that.


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## tainted_ (Feb 20, 2008)

I contacted her once because my medcations were making me feel sick, other than that no... One of my doctors rang her and asked her why she did it because I was confused felt like it was my fault but she explained to my doctor that she didn't feel that she could give me the help I needed and that I wasn't responding to her treatment...


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## Caligula (Apr 16, 2008)

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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Hello Tainted

You may have fallen prey to 'BPD burnout'. There are not many therapists that are willing to treat it, because it is so demanding. The mood fluctuations and the deep emotional attachments that are made can be very tiring, but the way she did it was wrong and unprofessional, and she should have known that as a BPD sufferer you would think it was your fault.

I am receiving Schema Therapy, which is recognised as the single most effective therapy for BPD avaliable. It is almost custom designed to take account of all the emotional demandingness, changes in moods, deep emotional investment and the pain of "angels to demons" - the tendency of BPD sufferers to see people as either perfect or pure ****, with no inbetween.

I have been hunting a good schema therapist for some time, and now I have founf one its like I haver finalyy turned onto the home stretch after several years of CBT, which does not go deep enough for BPD. If you feel stuck then my advice is to seek out a Schema Therapist. Go to http://www.schematherapy.com , and email them to ask for a list of therapist in your part of OZ. They may be far away and expensive, but the represent the single most likley path to future happiness for you  I like to share my experiences as well so hopefully reading my experiencwe will help as well! :yay Sorry if I seem bossy at all - I dont mean to be! :afr

Hullo Caligula. I think mabbe you are right. Starting schema sees you going through some heavy duty changes and emotions, and I have been lucky that work had cut me a lit of slack. I finally quit and have been off work for 2 months, but this has been the space I need to begin to heal. So yes, same advice. Look into schema therapy for the future. There is no med that will treat all of it, and no other therapy that has even comparable outcomes to schema. It really is the Gold Standard for BPD. Are you on any thing for your anxiety at the moment? I found that high dose effexor is very very good. With BPD it tends to be high dose SSRI's that work - low dose doesnt tend to cut it. Effexor hits Dopamine, Norepinephrine and serotonin at high dose. It worked for me, you may wish to try it. Most people with oure SA do not seem to respond well, but for my BPD it has been super.

To both you guys, If you are feeling isolated - then I truly mean it when I say PM if you wanna chat anything out. You may find it difficult to accept that someone might be able to understand you or to trust others, but all the same I would like to share my experiences if you think it would help you  Learning to trust and to open up to others, with a sense of self acceptance, is a big part of getting better :hug

Good luck and mega hugs love and chocolate


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## Caligula (Apr 16, 2008)

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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

I found with effexor, sometimes it worked quickly, and sometimes took months ... but if it didnt do anything for you that is poopie  Are you currently on any Meds at all? As I say, its normally going to need a high dose.

What was yours on effexor? Mine was 225mg and then 300mg



> slightly less irritable and liable to snap on people but nothing really significant that i could notice


You may like t know that this is called your Angry Child mode. Other ones you will prolly have if you have BPD:

Detached Protector
Punitive PArent
Demanding PArent
Lonely / vulnerable child
Impulsive Child
Healthy Adult (sometimes)

I dunno if you ever tried the questionnaire out that I posted for schemas? Its on the therapy board  HERE  . It would be worth filling that in and posting which ones you come up with here 

Ross


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## redstardude (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi Ross
I've got some questions which I hope you don't mind me asking. 

1 Why schema therapy instead of DBT, which from what I've read appears to be the standard treatment for BPD?
2 You don't fit the stereotype of BPD, (ie, gender, stable, no revolving door hospitalisation) so how did you get diagnosed and/or get a therapist to accept and work with the diagnosis?


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

1. DBT WAS the standard, now its Schema. Theres a lot of out of date stuff out there. I did my research before agreeing a therapy path. I was referred on by my CBT therapist after he recognised that CBT was not going to address the 'charcterological issues' I had - which my newer therapist agreed is consistent with BPD. Each time I go back, she becomes more convinced in her diagnosis.
2. Hospitalisations due to self harm are only ONE SYMPTOM of BPD, but uneducated doctors tend to view it as 'necessary' mainly because it scares the crap out of them. I am not stable. I submitted a total life history to my therapist with a full symtpom breakdown and then reported when these symtoms came up. I fit 7 of the 9 criteria and 5 are needed for diagnosis. I have only self harmed once in response to an abandonment - a typical BPD behaviour. Women make up 3/4 of all BPD diagnoses and as such have been almost exclusively studied. The disorder is known to present differently in males though this has not been studied. So your profile is rather flawed and inaccurate.

If you read that document about PD's that you told me about, you will see that BPD exists over a spectrum of functioning. I am higher functioning but still display the symptom set which causes pain and serious relationship malfunction and loss. I am currently out of work because I cant function in the enviornment at the moment due to my ongoing relationship difficulties. I have just lost yet another group of friends. I have frequent swings into rage and anger. I have paranoid ideation most days. My self concept is always shifting. I experience a strong sense of emptiness.

When I post I do not want to express that. I want to express hope and happiness, because that way I attract it to myself, to fill the hole that the BPD leaves. I am on a recovery path - so you will see some healthy behaviours from me. I dont see endless complaining as healthy or productive, though I could engage in hopelessness and despair if you felt it would help in some way. I rather feel theres more than enough of that on this site already. I have always been a trend breaker.

Dont forget I have also had 2 years of face to face CBT and have spent every day of my life fighting it, instead of being utterly alone and helpless. This makes a huge difference. Before therapy I was totally unstable. Im kind of curious how you can be in any way confident of your assessment of me simply by reading posts. Dont you think there is a bit of a filter when it comes to posting?

If you feel your symptoms are more severe than mine then I am sorry. You have my thoughts on what should be done but by all means follow your own path. Self detrmination is very important to recovery.


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

As I rarely, if ever, moan about anything, I thought I would post this youtube clip to illustrate what I do feel ... everything applies except the cutting

[youtube:11oyhx57]



[/youtube:11oyhx57]

Male BPD is slightly different to that in women ... but this video still captures it well.


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## Caligula (Apr 16, 2008)

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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

Glad it provided useful information. I know its a bit depressing, as I said I wouldnt normally post things like this.

www.schematherapy.com will give you lots of info.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

That video might be a downer, but it's good to express how it feels. Thanks for posting it. 

*Sprocket gives you a big ear lick to make you feel better.*


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## yeah_yeah_yeah (Mar 27, 2007)

**smiles and wipes ear** 

**pets sprocket**

**watches sprocket climb arm and sit like a parrot**

Awwww


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