# Long time lurker, sharing success



## Sleekman (Apr 29, 2012)

Hey guys. Just for the tl;dr people: The first post will be background, the second post will by my evaluation of what's worked and what hasn't. I think that there are tons of different forms of anxiety and reasons why people have it, and that what helps one person may be ineffectual on the next.

Background
---

I've always been shy. That doesn't mean I've always had _social anxiety_. I think there's a big distinction to draw between the two. Shyness means you'd rather be by yourself, introverted, that maybe going up and starting a conversation isn't the easiest thing... but there's a difference. Once I started one I could converse pretty well, thinking on my feet wasn't a problem, and there wouldn't be any anxiety at all after that initial kick.

The anxiety started to kick in after moving away to my university. I had the pretty standard college diet: Alcohol, caffeine, and fried foods. I probably indulged a bit more than most people, although my metabolism was such that it never showed on my waistline. I exercised somewhat regularly and for the first few months of the year things went well - no problem becoming friends with people I'd just met, and still that same general idea: once the initial meeting happens, it was smooth sailing.

Then midway through that year something happened, that first panic attack we all have. I went through the usual thought processes that people have [heart attack, what's going on, freaking out], didn't sleep for the entire night, and was generally exhausted. I'd had no idea what went on, and these panic attacks struck intermittently for the remainder of the year. After a while and with a trip to the infirmary I'd managed to self-diagnose. I know that's generally frowned upon but it was pretty obvious what was going on.

Anyway, eventually these things sort of built upon themselves. It wasn't really "smooth sailing" anymore after meeting someone, it was "oh wow this is awful and awkward, let me get out of here." I'd have trouble connecting to, joking around with, or being close with people who were my friends or who were in places that I could trust. Worst of all, the self-doubt and paranoia that so much of us are familiar with, that everyone is thinking negative things about you and that you're just not worth it, struck. These things are often reinforcing: You might have one bad experience, react badly to one situation and then you avoid those situations over and over, and it gradually spreads. We all know what it's like. One innocuous joke might be made, and innocent comment, or even a mistake, but you take it. You don't say anything, then you beat up on yourself for hours later about not saying anything. These things, of course, build upon themselves. By withdrawing and acting timidly, people eventually begin to feed off that negative body language and attitude and treat you with less respect than they used to. Additionally because you start to get a negative self image, you take once-joking affairs and turn everything into a personal insult and want to withdraw anymore. In sort: I think depression is pretty solidly linked with anxiety, and there's sort of a feedback loop between the two.

Anyway, I think by now many of you get the picture of what I'm trying to say. I'd been a normal guy at 17: I'd even overcome a lot of awkward adolescent-age emotional and personal growth to become a confident young guy who wasn't afraid to challenge people. Then it all sort of fell apart over the next year or two. I was less successful at meeting people, and when I did meet people I would often (due to lack of confidence, a direct result of anxiety) fail to hold their attention for too long, or I would purposely look for an exit from the conversation. I got too concerned with what other people were doing and with how inadequate I thought I was.

I can expound on the descent down into anxiety and depression a bit more a later point if people wish to discuss. I've thought and looked back a lot about this over the past 4-5 years and I think I have a number of insights about different points in the cycle. But for now, lets more onto the second post: What I did to combat it, what worked, and why.


----------



## Sleekman (Apr 29, 2012)

So after the first year or two of college I'd hit the bottom. I knew, to some extent, what was going on. I knew I had to go out and talk to people, that there was nothing wrong with sitting with that group of acquaintances at lunch, even if you had only ever talked once or twice. After all, that was the purpose of sitting with them: to get to know them better. But I wouldn't. I'd tell myself "next time" or "when this project is out of the way, I'm busy now." To be fair, sometimes it was true, but I think we all know 95% of the time these obstacles we place in front of ourselves are just excuses.

Anyway, I realized these posts are actually going to be a bit out of order. I'll stick to what I promised and review the different fixes I've tried here, and then in my 3rd post I'll get around to some more general things. Anyway, in chronological order of how I tried them:

Cures, Fixes, Supplements, etc
---

Alcohol - This is a temporary fix. I actually started before I went to my university and it was great. I would be extremely social even with people I didn't know or who were "cooler" than me, I'd be confident, etc. Needless to say, getting to college and being able to drink any time you want greatly dulls this effect. For some people. It definitely did for me. At the beginning I could wake up after an extremely heavy session of drinking at 10 am and be ready to go the next day and face the world. Within a semester or so, if I'd had to much to drink the night before I'd be curled up in a ball the entire day. Often thinking about what, if anything, I'd might've done and said but forgot about. So this "cure" was a complete disaster. That being said, to those who may be wondering whether chemical dependency led to anxiety/depression: I think not. I've gone sober for extended times (months, not weeks) and things didn't really change. I think there's a place for alcohol in social interaction, and I think there's a place for binge drinking to be honest, at least among males. It's how a good number of adults bond, it just is. But to think it's going to be a cure-all is wrong. 

Marijuana and Psychadelics - Thought I might throw this in here since we're on the subject of things that people don't think are OK. A lot of people look towards either of these things as a sort of holy grail of understanding, learning, introspection, and change. It isn't true. I actually have pretty strongly pro-legalization views and think drugs aren't the boogie man they're made out to be, but for people stuck in the anxiety trap (and because they're illegal) I have to strongly counsel against seeking them or using them to solve problems.

Tyrosine - Saw this bandied about in some places as a potential anxiety helper, among other things, so I picked some up. Can't say I felt anything, even a weak placebo effect. 

5-HTP - Also saw this as a potential anxiety helper and sleep aid. I tried this out too and it seemed to have no effect. If anything, it actually made me more depressed. 

Fish Oil - This one had the strongest placebo out of all of them. I can't say I noticed enough improvement that I'd say it definitely helped, but its possible. I'm at least somewhat concerned with the studies that show that a large amount of the oil sold commercially is rancid; not for safety but just because I don't like spending $20 on a bottle of rotten fish that may be doing harm. 

Exercise: Mixed. I've always had a pretty athletic build, so exercising more didn't give me the confidence boosts it gives a lot of people. I think if you're scrawny or small, or have a history of being bullied, weight lifting can be extremely positive to building your self image and confidence. When I exercise regularly I cant say it really helps me out too much, though. When I slip into periods of irregular exercise, getting back in the habit makes you feel awesome for about a week, but once it becomes routine I stopped noticing too many benefits. I recommend this, though, for the people I talked about a few lines up. Being confident in yourself is both a mental and physical game. I'm not saying go out and get in fights, but if you're at a party, or a bar, or in a sports game or something, and some guy thinks he can just walk over you, being able to stand up for yourself is incredibly important. Also, if you're overweight, exercise. Not only is it healthy for you, but being able to look in the mirror every day will greatly increase your self confidence. 

Caffeine - Cut out caffeine for a while to see if any effects. Didn't notice any. Caffeine can definitely trigger anxiety attacks in certain conditions, but that physical manifestation (massive panic attacks) stopped even while social anxiety lingered. If you're drinking 5+ cups a day you should probably cut back, but otherwise I don't think this one is that important.

Vitamin D - Worthless for me. Although it's supposedly a great supplement to take, the caveat of supplements being unregulated and therefore impossible to verify is in effect. HOWEVER...

Sunlight - This is big. Everyone is happier in warm weather, including depressed and/or anxious people. Will it cure everything? No. It might take you from a -10 to a -5, and occasionally you'll even hit a 0, though. For me, though, seasonal effects merely exacerbated or relaxed the main problems. They weren't the cause. Also, you know you're getting your vitamin D here.

B6 - No noticeable effect. 

Choline / Eggs - No noticeable effect. Healthy for you though.

Phenibut - Didn't try, but to be honest from everything I've read I'd advise people to stay away. It seems like it has many of the pitfalls of alcohol with the downside of quicker dependency, less social acceptability, and worse hangovers. Anything that isn't sustainable should be avoided, in my opinion. Papering over the symptoms might help but it won't solve the problem, and who knows what you're doing to your liver and kidneys by being on drugs long term (that goes for all of them). There are certainly medical cases where they're needed, but this is a battle you can win, I think.

Behavorial Stuff - Did a lot of reading about social dynamics, how to meet people, how to effectively communicate, publicly speak, etc. Some helped and some didn't. Even when I had social anxiety I managed to conquer my public speaking phobia. It takes practice and a gameplan. And public speaking was one thing where I wouldn't feel a lack of confidence initiating, because oftentimes these commitments are mandatory (class, meetings, etc.). I also think that books - some more than others - can be very helpful with body language and how to frame your verbal communication. It won't do that much good unless you have the mental state to back yourself up, but being more self aware always helps. Unfortunately most of the material I read was male-oriented so I'm not really sure where females should look. I'd recommend the guys on here find a copy of a good book in the PUA genre. It sounds corny but basic rules of body language, fashion, and sexuality serve as a fantastic foundation for building the future you.

Magnesium - What can I say. I started supplementing with this and it almost immediately flipped about a million switches in my head. I only picked this up on a whim - someone on a different message board told to just try it, so I did. After taking it, I noticed some pretty powerful effects so I looked back on what causes magnesium deficiency. Let's look at some of the answers:

Alcohol
Caffeine
Not eating whole grains / spinach (and you need A LOT. One salad and a slice of bread won't cut it). 
Stress

Hmm. Lets see: Grade and social stress? check. Alcohol, caffeine? check. Whole grains and vegetables? LOL. Buying these things (particularly if you don't have a kitchen and need them pre-prepared) can get expensive fast, not to mention the fact that most cafeterias just straight up don't have them. It also fits my timeline fairly well, too. Alcohol and caffeine use skyrocketing, magnesium in body plummeting. I should also mention that, even when I would be home, I'd frequently be on a "low carb" diet. I think there are major benefits to that diet, but only if you eat a lot of vegetables. Treating "low carb" as "meat and cheese for every meal," as many do, is a recipe for disaster.

Side effects: I'm a notorious oversleeper. I can sleep for 10 hours and still be tired when I wake up. It's a problem, actually. Then I won't be able to sleep until late at night (ignore the timestamp on this post, there's other things going on right now that I won't get into). It wasn't uncommon for me to get 10-12 hours of sleep ON AVERAGE and still be tired. I can now get a solid seven or so hours of sleep and not feel that constant fatigue. And I actually get tired at the end of the day. Also, you **** easier. I can actually handle 300+ mg without any negative side effects in this department, only a minor loosening, but apparently some people run into problems. 

It's hard to really explain. I feel like a cloud in the front of my head has been cleared for the first time in years. Proper diet, exercise, and staying away from the bad things when I was younger helped stave it off. But think about it. When was the last time you ate a salad? The last time you ate three salads a day for a whole week, a month? Heck, I would go months without eating any vegetable that wasn't lettuce on a bun or sitting on a pizza. 

After doing some research on the internet it seems like a number of people share my experience with magnesium supplementation. It won't help every case. It probably won't even help most of them. But if you haven't given it a go yet, I would definitely recommend it. 

If I can think of any other remedies I tried I'll add them.


----------



## Sleekman (Apr 29, 2012)

Closing Thoughts
---

First, if anyone has any questions about a step in the process or something I mentioned (or anything at all), feel free to ask or private message me. 

So I feel "correct" for the first time in years. It's a pretty strange feeling, actually. No longer do I have to pass someone, force myself to think "you should talk to them" and then go talk to them. It's strangely natural to sit down with someone I haven't seen in a month and have an hour-long conversation with them (it just happened today). 

I'll admit that I didn't have the most crippling case of anxiety out there. The extreme attacks went away after a while. For those of you who are dealing with that, I don't know what advice to specifically give. There's nothing worse than having bodywide tremors at 3 AM or having the complete, and I mean complete, inability to string along any thought longer than "I'm going to die." I rode mine out but I can imagine it would be worse for other people, and indeed incapacitating if it happens too frequently. More than once I had to excuse myself from a meal and just go home, you have to learn your own body and how best to respond to it yourself. 

To those with milder cases, I suggest just trying the whole litany of supplements. Some people claim instant health with fish oil, others with magnesium, others with 5-HTP. I think for a lot of us there is a root chemical cause of anxiety and depression. The problem is finding out what it is, and it can be extremely hard. 

The most important thing is self awareness. Recognize who you are. But more importantly, recognize who other people think you are. Recognize what they see. One of my biggest steps was cutting out the disconnect between what I thought and what other people thought. Fairly or not, you're being judged at all times. We all know, deep down, what we're capable of. And we often base our self perceptions off what we know we can do. Accordingly, we're disappointed, insulted, and hurt when people don't recognize what we know we can do. It doesn't matter. You need to prove to everyone - including yourself - of what you're capable of. Medicines help. Supplements help. But until you seriously sit down and look at the situation, you won't get anywhere.


----------



## Sleekman (Apr 29, 2012)

Dealing with Anxiety [What worked while I still had it]
---

This is meant to address things other than supplements. I realized I might have downplayed my level of anxiety, so let me set it straight. I would have a barrier to connecting with people once I developed my case. My anxiety prevented me from talking in group situations (unless, as I said, mandatory) and I would routinely avoid parties, etc. even if I was specifically invited. Also, although not physically walked over, I would often cede arguments or disputes, even without really voicing my opinion, because either I was afraid of potential conflict or I was simply unable to speak up. It was definitely affecting me.

Before dealing with what I hope was the root chemical cause, I did engage in a number of behavioral changes to help me along the way. Some things worked. Some things didn't. To those still dealing with social anxiety and searching for the cure, let me try to help you out.

1) Joining a team. This was huge. Like I said I'm naturally athletic, and sports are one of the few areas where being quiet doesn't always hurt you. It was also important in helping to learn the benefits of healthy competition and, ultimately, that if you want something you have to get it yourself and can't rely on others to do it for you. Similarly, if you want something, you shouldn't be afraid to take it. Sure, be respectful and don't be selfish. But there's no reason to be afraid to try in practice because you might take your friend's spot. It's just how life is.

There are usually a number of teams available to non-superstar athletes that can help confidence. Frisbee is one, rugby is another, a lot of universities and high schools also have at least one or two sports with basically unlimited rosters (crew and track are the most common). Oftentimes even mediocre athletes can find a level that they can succeed in, although I'll admit this advice won't work for everyone.

2) Escape bad environments. Normally I don't like to use the word escape. Normally you shouldn't have to escape. Sometimes you do. Some people are just bad people. Some people don't care about you and won't care about you. Some are more than willing to use you as a pawn, to be your friend and then humiliate you, and the such. Now I have to caution against this view somewhat because it's common for people with anxiety to think everyone is against them, or judging them negatively. I sure did! The vast people are, at worst, indifferent to you. There are some people who you just need to cut out of your life. It's tough, but you have to do it sometimes. Having other people (non-biased people) help you in your evaluation so you don't do anything you'll regret.

3) Think in the now. I know this one's really hard. All to often my anxiety would come from analyzing events that happened an hour ago, a day ago, a week ago, or years ago. Mistakes. Failed conversations. Failed jokes. Insults. Lost arguments. They replay in your head, over and over. The important thing to remember is: If you did something embarrassing, it happened. At this point, you can't change it. People DO pick up on the fact that you're trying to hide something or embarrassed about something. And not in a good way. They might make an innocent comment about something you did, but it hurts you inside. You have to come to grips with the fact that you can't, and can never change the past. But you can shape the future. Being confident in dealing with these situations - or at the very least addressing it and moving on - is far, far more effective than ignoring or hiding from it. I'd say about 99.99% of the time I've done something embarrassing or something I regret, if I go up and talk to the person or people and talk about it, they'll wave it off like nothing happened or, on the contrary, don't believe that anything happened and think I'm being ridiculous. It's only when you don't address it yourself that people start spreading rumors and stories behind your back.

4) Get your life in order. My anxiety was directly correlated to my grades and how prepared I was for class. This seems intuitive but it's easy to forget. Stay on top of your work, cleaning, and plans and your leisure time will be less stressed.

5) Find something you're good at. And something you can share with other people. I used to be amazing at video games but it wouldn't matter a lick because the only people who'd ever know it were my family members. Occasionally I'd play with a friend, sure, but you don't bond over video games. People aren't really impressed by it, in the back of their head they probably even think negatively if you're too good.

What I mean by something you can share is something you can show off. Athletics is one thing. Musical talents are another - especially vocal and guitar talents. Heck, if you're really good at class, be sure to chime up when your friends are struggling. Get good at poker so you can stay in games and play in tournaments. Get good at whatever your local drinking game is so you can be at a party and be doing something you're good at. I don't know - there's tons of options.

There are very few skills in the world that can't be learned to a basic level within a few weeks. Can't throw a ball? Ask someone to help teach you. Within a couple of weeks of actual work, provided you don't give up, you'll be able to join your friends outside. Don't know the rules to the board game people are playing? Sit and watch and ask to get in on the next round. Usually you'll find people are more than willing to help.

6) Practice. This one's simple and said all the time. I still never actually did it until I was bored one night and procrastinating going to sleep. If you have an interview, if you have a presentation, write it down and say it to yourself slowly in front of a mirror. Talk slowly. It won't cure everything instantly, but it helps.

7) Baby steps. You're not going to be Casanova or Lady Gaga within one step. But you should notice that often times, the major stars, the people who seem like naturals, often used to be shy or reserved. Seriously, read some of their biographies. Even Tom Brady was a chubby backup QB before he became a first round hall of famer dating a supermodel. You don't go straight to the big leagues.

Start simple. Open up to your family. Get a small circle of close friends. Then expand a bit - usually people can more easily deal with the same sex, but yea. Talk to the person at work or person sitting next to you in class, even if for only 30 seconds while you say "hi." You don't need to be able to go into a club and pick up the girl of your dreams. You won't, and you can't. At least not yet. Find a realistic goal and accomplish it. Then do the next one. And the next one.

I write mine out because it helps me keep myself honest. When I have a grand goal in my mind ("Find a gf," "find a job," etc.) then I never get it done. You can have a ton of specific goals: Write your resume today. Apply to five jobs. Talk to the person who always sits next to you. Smile to 5 random strangers on the street. All of these are much more achievable than the end product you're working towards. All will help you. The key is realizing this and keeping yourself honest. That's why I like the list method. It have it pinned on the shelf above my computer. Every day, when I sit down, I have it there staring right at me. You need to apply that sort of gentle pressure on yourself. It sure helped me.

If I think of another topic I'll try to post it.


----------



## Sleekman (Apr 29, 2012)

As a side note I'll say that I was initially skeptical because it seems like most supplements are snake oil. And for most people most things won't work, every person has their own thing that will respond differently to everything else. But for a little scientific support, see:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16542786



> *Abstract*
> 
> Major depression is a mood disorder characterized by a sense of inadequacy, despondency, decreased activity, pessimism, anhedonia and sadness where these symptoms severely disrupt and adversely affect the person's life, sometimes to such an extent that suicide is attempted or results. Antidepressant drugs are not always effective and some have been accused of causing an increased number of suicides particularly in young people. Magnesium deficiency is well known to produce neuropathologies. Only 16% of the magnesium found in whole wheat remains in refined flour, and magnesium has been removed from most drinking water supplies, setting a stage for human magnesium deficiency. Magnesium ions regulate calcium ion flow in neuronal calcium channels, helping to regulate neuronal nitric oxide production. In magnesium deficiency, neuronal requirements for magnesium may not be met, causing neuronal damage which could manifest as depression. Magnesium treatment is hypothesized to be effective in treating major depression resulting from intraneuronal magnesium deficits. These magnesium ion neuronal deficits may be induced by stress hormones, excessive dietary calcium as well as dietary deficiencies of magnesium. Case histories are presented showing* rapid recovery (less than 7 days) from major depression using 125-300 mg of magnesium* (as glycinate and taurinate) with each meal and at bedtime. Magnesium was found usually effective for treatment of depression in general use. Related and accompanying mental illnesses in these case histories including traumatic brain injury, headache, suicidal ideation, anxiety, irritability, insomnia, postpartum depression, cocaine, alcohol and tobacco abuse, hypersensitivity to calcium, short-term memory loss and IQ loss were also benefited. Dietary deficiencies of magnesium, coupled with excess calcium and stress may cause many cases of * other related symptoms including agitation, anxiety, irritability, confusion, asthenia, sleeplessness, headache, delirium, hallucinations and hyperexcitability, * with each of these having been previously documented. The possibility that magnesium deficiency is the cause of most major depression and related mental health problems including IQ loss and addiction is enormously important to public health and is recommended for immediate further study. Fortifying refined grain and drinking water with biologically available magnesium to pre-twentieth century levels is recommended.


I'll note that my anxiety was much higher after certain triggers (hangovers, before tests and/or deadlines, before a debate or social event) which would correspond with the deficiency theory.


----------



## Sleekman (Apr 29, 2012)

Also see:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19944540



> *Magnesium for treatment-resistant depression: a review and hypothesis.*
> 
> Eby GA 3rd, Eby KL.
> *Source*
> ...


Not trying to shill too much. It's just incredible how fast my life outlook has switched around. I'll note that there are a ton of different magnesium supplements out there. I believe mine is Magnesium Citrate, and some are absorbed more easily than others - do some research before buying a $15 tub of something that won't work.


----------



## Sleekman (Apr 29, 2012)

But as always, please if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. The many years I spent dealing with it day in and day out have given me a number of experiences, stories, and things to say about how to make it better even if medicine doesn't work for you.


----------



## Sleekman (Apr 29, 2012)

Addendum Re: Types of Magnesium
---

So I actually remember (I'm on kind of a roll here, it's weird, just trying to share) reading about magnesium - I believe on here - before. I had went out to a drug store and bought a fat bottle, I don't really remember how expensive it was, of big white magnesium pills. Turns out they were magnesium oxide. I remember them not working at all. This, of course, had me worried for a second that my turnaround was based on something else that I had missed, or perhaps was just illusory and depression/anxiety will return. While still possible, I at least can solve the problem of the bad magnesium.

A quick perusal of studies just now shows that magnesium oxide has a bioavailability of 4%. This is so low as to almost be meaningless. It seems that the most recommended are citrate, lactate, and taurate, but I strongly recommend doing some research beforehand.


----------



## Ninetales (Jan 6, 2012)

Awesome story. Gave me inspiration.
One of those things we need to read once in a while.

Any qoutes or one-liners that motivated you?


----------



## Sleekman (Apr 29, 2012)

Ninetales said:


> Awesome story. Gave me inspiration.
> One of those things we need to read once in a while.
> 
> Any qoutes or one-liners that motivated you?


Honestly the thing that motivated me the most was something that my one of my best friends said.

It came at a point where my once-large social circle had dwindled down to maybe 3 or 4 people I'd feel comfortable talking to. Even people who used to be my friends I'd, at that point, want to immediately exit conversations with them. Luckily I was with two of the remaining ones as we were eating dinner.

"Dude you never speak loud enough."

Plain and simple. It wasn't an insult (it was part of the flow of the conversation), but it just took someone who I completely trusted, being frank and honest. I knew there were no ulterior motives, no reason for distrust. And I think its different when it comes from a friend than a parent or family member. But it made me take a deep look at myself and realize something needed a shakeup.


----------



## rajjer01 (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm glad you put this up because I havent taken my magnesium supplement for a while and for a couple days now my SA has been a bit uppity lol. Guess its time to restart


----------



## Energizer (Nov 25, 2012)

Thanks so much for posting this. I read through everything and while I'm still at a loss as where to begin, it's somewhat of a relief to know that someone else has had an onslaught of panic attacks, that seemingly just came about one day. I was making progress, and then after a certain event, I started having the panic attacks and social anxiety, and I felt pretty horrible for not knowing how to act around the friends I was making and my own family. I think they all thought I was being rude and I just had no idea to explain to them.

Did your friends or any of your family know what was going on? Or was this something you worked on your own?


----------

