# ***Lets all become vegan 2018***



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

Being a vegan is healthier than most diets, without eating animals or harming them in the process.


Vegan food is also very delicious, and good for the mind and body.


Lets make this happen together and all become vegan.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

Do we have to get one of those silly beards and get a tattoo as well?


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## Red2N (Oct 7, 2017)

....... No can do, sorry.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

Nah thanks.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

I wish you luck on your anaemia goals of 2018 (be that regular, or pernicious ). I for one will be passing.


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## Tomatmacka (May 24, 2018)

Vegetarian? Perhaps in the future.

Vegan? Absolutely not. Being dependent on pills to get what I need when I can eat normally without worrying too much.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Oh no the pills! Let's bolt pistol a pig's brain instead because I'm a lazy *****.


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## Alpha Tauri (Mar 19, 2017)

I, as a human being, did not go to the top of the food chain just to be a herbivore.


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## Tomatmacka (May 24, 2018)

Siegfried said:


> Oh no the pills! Let's bolt pistol a pig's brain instead because I'm a lazy *****.


Hah.


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

I try to eat less meat than before but it requires a lot of time and effort to go the whole hog and ensure you're getting the right balance of nutrients. I already have enough health problems to go on experimental diets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Overdrive (Sep 19, 2015)

Alpha Tauri said:


> I, as a human being, did not go to the top of the food chain just to be a herbivore.


damn right.


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## Sasseth (Mar 25, 2018)

Bro, don't listen to these guys, please. Being vegan is very good, good for health and it's important to be compassionate to the animals. In my opinion it also raises your vibration, which makes you feel better. But the thoughts you ''consume'' are also important. If we don't consume thoughts at all, then it's perfect.

I think being vegan is the obvious choice, because why contribute to the extreme suffering of animals? I mean, like, why? when we don't even need to consume meat at all. I wouldn't want to be treated the way animals are, especially when they are about to leave..

Vegan for life. Been vegan for a year and a few months now with a small exceptions when I was eating fish and few seafood, but now I'm back to being completely VEGAN! Let's be happy together


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## cosmicKitten (Mar 1, 2016)

i need meat to survive or i'll wither away. it takes way too much time, money, and effort to be vegan, it's simply not an option for me at the moment but maybe someday


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## funnynihilist (Jul 29, 2014)

Can't see myself ever becoming vegan, mainly because I eat a lot of eggs, but the older I get the less I crave meat. In fact, sometimes it looks downright unappealing to me. Like heavy piles of grease and fat.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

So much brain damage in this thread.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

I've tried so many times, but always go back to being just a vegetarian. Eventually I'll get with it, and go full vegan. My problem as it stands right now is just being lazy.


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## Suchness (Aug 13, 2011)

Eating meat is an old, primitive way of living and its dying. Compassion is part of evolution, its a new intelligence that wants to be born into this world.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Not sure whether to put my devils advocate hat on in this thread.

Think I will leave it off lol.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Makes more sense to do it for sustainability reasons. Then again, so does eating insects.


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## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

BlackHorse said:


> *Being a vegan is healthier than most diets*, without eating animals or harming them in the process.
> 
> Vegan food is also very delicious, and good for the mind and body.
> 
> Lets make this happen together and all become vegan.


Yea, that's not true....


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## Shy Ostrich (Jun 24, 2017)

I don't have the willpower ... Honestly though, I could go vegetarian, if my mom wouldn't stop complaining about my lack of meat intake. Maybe when I move out.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> Oh no the pills! Let's bolt pistol a pig's brain instead because I'm a lazy *****.


Fun fact. Making valid arguments as to why someone should do that is more effective than trying to insult the people you're trying to assure.
People will just think you're an *******, and associate it with vegans. So good job with that.

Want an argument against veganism? Well, here's one that I liked:





While I do think of ethics, health and environment with my food, in the limits of time I can put into it.
And I do appreciate it if someone (non-*******) tries to be vegan.

People who try to feel superior to others because of their subjective values, are idiots and suck.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> Fun fact. Making valid arguments as to why someone should do that is more effective than trying to insult the people you're trying to assure.
> People will just think you're an *******, and associate it with vegans. So good job with that.
> 
> Want an argument against veganism? Well, here's one that I liked:
> ...


I think I layed out reality quite well, and hit a little emotional knot in you. You are gassing and bolt-gunning sentient beings with full capacity for suffering because of mouth masturbation. The point is not to eliminate death, the point is to reduce unneeded suffering. Yes, suffering is bad, and insects don't have as complex a nervous-system as a cow. Or a pig. The video is laughable.

As for the health benefits, I choose to go with science over some anecdote, which seems to be all your side has. You felt bad after switching to a vegan diet despite science showing, abundantly, that it's the superior diet. Therefore, bolt gun pig.

And lastly, yeah I do kind of feel superior to you. At least in action. I don't necessarily feel superior morally as you're probably guided by ignorance. But then again, that isn't an excuse. Your actions are supporting suffering for simple desires, I think I have some ground to stand on. And yeah, "bu huu you're mean" is not convincing me either. There was a point in what I wrote if you couldn't tell.

Intelligent people can see past my personality deficits. If you can't, sorry about that, but you're dumb.


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## itsonlyamatteroftime (Apr 23, 2018)

I was a vegetarian for most of my teens and a vegan for a couple of years. I want to become vegan again once my histamine intolerance is no longer an issue. Right now I have a list of "safe" foods that I can eat without experiencing painful reactions. On that list is plain meat like chicken breast and fish. I can't digest beans or lentils and nuts give me migraines. I'd like to find an alternative to eating meat somewhere down the road. I've already given up eating dairy and eggs.


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## CNikki (Aug 9, 2013)

While we're at it, let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. It will solve all of the world's problems.


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## Sus y (Aug 30, 2017)

If you pay my food and also cook it for me, no problem, I'll become vegetarian or vegan otherwise errrr nope.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Ideally I'd like to be vegan. The less animal suffering the better. I'm quite well fed without eating meat and healthy. It's easy to be a pudgy vegetarian. I have way less medical issues than my coworkers who are the same age. A lot of my coworkers have diabetes, high blood pressure, allergies to animal dander, allergies to pollen, etc. and I have none of that. That could be genetic but who knows. It's not like I lead a healthy lifestyle. I drink a lot of booze, eat lots of fattening food, and don't exercise all that much.

Dairy is in so many things, so it's hard to quit especially because I'm bad at cooking. So I just stick to being pescatarian, almost vegetarian except for the canned tuna I have a couple times a month. If I ever get better at cooking, I might switch.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I just wanted to mention that the vegan chocolate chip cookies at Trader Joe's are sooooo good. If you get a chance try some.


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## BobbyByThePound (Apr 4, 2012)

Humans have no right to try to make prohibited what God has made lawful. God has made it lawful to eat meat. Therefore, we are free to eat meat and whoever tries to say otherwise is misguided.

And from an atheistic perspective, it is completely nonsensical to say that eating meat is wrong. If God doesn't exist, there's no such as "wrong," morality doesn't exist and the most a person can do is say "in my personal opinion" a thing is wrong. If God doesn't exist, objective morality doesn't exist and people can do whatever they want.

Thus either way we are free to eat meat annd whoever tries to act as though they're morally superior because they're a vegan or say that it's wrong to eat meat has no basis for what they are saying.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

Thread should just be moved to S&C if this is the direction it's going to take. :roll


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

I've never really understood why they can't even eat eggs and dairy products - what's the problem there?


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## Blue Dino (Aug 17, 2013)

Meh I already hold back enough indulgences in my life, so I gotta live at least a little.



komorikun said:


> I just wanted to mention that the vegan chocolate chip cookies at Trader Joe's are sooooo good. If you get a chance try some.


 I've always wanted to try that whenever I spot them in TJs. But I am not spending almost $10 for a dozen cookies. Maybe I will once if they are that good... hm.



tehuti88 said:


> Thread should just be moved to S&C if this is the direction it's going to take.


I gonna guess team liberals will take vegan and team conservative will side with meat.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

harrison said:


> I've never really understood why they can't even eat eggs and dairy products - what's the problem there?


The chickens who lay eggs are treated very badly. They are inside a super tiny wire cage their whole short life. They have to chop off half their beak (with no pain killers of course), otherwise they will peck each other to death due to the stress of living in such horrible conditions. And the male chicks are all killed once they are hatched since they are of no use to an egg farmer. I believe the breed of chickens used for meat are different from the breed used for eggs. So the male egg chicks are immediately killed. Maybe used for dog and cat food?

As for dairy, I read that the babies are almost immediately taken away from the mothers so that the milk can go towards human use. And most dairy cows only produce a profitable amount of milk for 5 or 6 years I think, even though they can live for 20 years. So once they are not profitable, they get slaughtered for meat.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> I think I layed out reality quite well, and hit a little emotional knot in you.


Hardly 
I wouldn't go vegan even if it required me to do nothing.



> You are gassing and bolt-gunning sentient beings with full capacity for suffering because of mouth masturbation. The point is not to eliminate death, the point is to reduce unneeded suffering. Yes, suffering is bad, and insects don't have as complex a nervous-system as a cow. Or a pig. The video is laughable.


Indeed, which is something I mentioned, and believe myself. As I mentioned, I pay attention to ethics. I do not think veganism is the solution to treating animals ethically.



> As for the health benefits, I choose to go with science over some anecdote, which seems to be all your side has. You felt bad after switching to a vegan diet despite science showing, abundantly, that it's the superior diet. Therefore, bolt gun pig.


I've never been vegan, nor will I ever be. Feel free to refer the 'science'. Afaik, most suggested diets are actually quite balanced, and veganism requires pills for a good reason



> And lastly, yeah I do kind of feel superior to you. At least in action. I don't necessarily feel superior morally as you're probably guided by ignorance. But then again, that isn't an excuse. Your actions are supporting suffering for simple desires, I think I have some ground to stand on. And yeah, "bu huu you're mean" is not convincing me either. There was a point in what I wrote if you couldn't tell.


I'm relatively well aware of what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. If you think your value structures make you more worthy than someone else, because they are YOUR values, then you, sir, are an *******.



> Intelligent people can see past my personality deficits. If you can't, sorry about that, but you're dumb.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

komorikun said:


> The chickens who lay eggs are treated very badly. They are inside a super tiny wire cage their whole short life. They have to chop off half their beak (with no pain killers of course), otherwise they will peck each other to death due to the stress of living in such horrible conditions. And the male chicks are all killed once they are hatched since they are of no use to an egg farmer. I believe the breed of chickens used for meat are different from the breed used for eggs. So the male egg chicks are immediately killed. Maybe used for dog and cat food?
> 
> As for dairy, I read that the babies are almost immediately taken away from the mothers so that the milk can go towards human use. And most dairy cows only produce a profitable amount of milk for 5 or 6 years I think, even though they can live for 20 years. So once they are not profitable, they get slaughtered for meat.


Yeah, that is terrible about the cage chickens - I do at least make sure I buy cage-free eggs or whatever they're called. Those photos are pretty awful.

Not sure about the milk and meat side of things. I suppose growing up in a city we don't really think about all this stuff.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

komorikun said:


> The chickens who lay eggs are treated very badly. They are inside a super tiny wire cage their whole short life. They have to chop off half their beak (with no pain killers of course), otherwise they will peck each other to death due to the stress of living in such horrible conditions.


 Sounds a lot like what they do to working class humans.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> Indeed, which is something I mentioned, and believe myself. As I mentioned, I pay attention to ethics. I do not think veganism is the solution to treating animals ethically.


What is the solution to treating animals ethically?



> I've never been vegan, nor will I ever be. Feel free to refer the 'science'. Afaik, most suggested diets are actually quite balanced, and veganism requires pills for a good reason.


Data wouldn't change your mind, you have emotional objections. And what pills are you referring to? B-12? "For a good reason" sounds like an appeal to nature.



> I'm relatively well aware of what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. If you think your value structures make you more worthy than someone else, because they are YOUR values, then you, sir, are an *******.


Specifically not what I said, I said the actions by themselves were superior, not me morally. And you don't believe someone's value structure can change their value as a person? How very tolerant and progressive of you.

Also, bolt gunning pig brains. Kind of a dick move. So not sure you wanna throw around the term *******.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Animals are just too yummy, and vegetables are just not tasty enough for me to be a vegan. 



Of course tho, don't wish animals to be treated badly even though some of them would chew me up alive if I ventured out in the wrong place.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

SFC01 said:


> Animals are just too yummy, *and vegetables are just not tasty enough for me to be a vegan. *
> 
> Of course tho, don't wish animals to be treated badly even though some of them would chew me up alive if I ventured out in the wrong place.


One way to fix that is to eat a lot of Indian food - my son did that when he was vegetarian. I love Indian food too actually - they can make anything taste incredible, so many spices.

Edit: athough I must admit I tend to have lamb rogan josh or butter chicken myself.


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## Mucker (May 25, 2018)

I’d stave and die... I wish I liked vegetables more but most of them taste horrific or get placed with dishes as a last minute afterthought. I hardly ever add vegetables to a meal because it normally makes the dish a damn sight worse annoyingly.


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## Overdrive (Sep 19, 2015)

I guess in the future there will be crying dirt/rock diet based people infront of vegetables and plants farms "ohhh look at what this poor basilic has gone thru"... Yeah to where it's heading i'm glad i will be no more.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Been saying for a while, insect protein is the way forward, nobody gives a **** about insects. Efficient too.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

harrison said:


> One way to fix that is to eat a lot of Indian food -


Yeah, true mate!


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## unemployment simulator (Oct 18, 2015)

fair play to anyone who can hack it, but its not for me, it ruined my bowels. I am sticking with being vegetarian, its a better compromise.


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## unemployment simulator (Oct 18, 2015)

splendidbob said:


> Been saying for a while, insect protein is the way forward, nobody gives a **** about insects. Efficient too.


completely agree, more environmentally friendly to farm/transport etc. its just everyone in the west tends to be grossed out by insects.
I don't actually hate most of the edible ones but I get the feeling most people in the world give less of a crap about them then animals.


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## Suchness (Aug 13, 2011)

No need to eat insects when you can get all your amino acids from plants.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Suchness said:


> No need to eat insects when you can get all your amino acids from plants.


Yeah, with you on that one !!


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

What do you vegans eat/ drink on a typical days....supplements included?

Also do you abstain from medications or other products that have come about from animal exploitation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)




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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> What is the solution to treating animals ethically?


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation
Of course, avoiding unnecessary pain etc. Just an example of things to consider. Now, for your arguments FOR veganism, since you haven't given any 

I personally do not believe that killing animals for food is unethical in itself. Prove me wrong.



> Data wouldn't change your mind, you have emotional objections. And what pills are you referring to? B-12? "For a good reason" sounds like an appeal to nature.


Where have I made an emotional objection or argument? If you've ever read any of my posts, you'd know I'm not an emotional person. The same pills as you were, in your earlier post.
A quick google-search would be a start, I guess.

Values =/= emotions, and you can't really argue for superiority of values, objectively. You keep trying to misrepresent and/or devalue anything I say, without actually bringing any proper arguments to the table yourself. "Data wouldn't change your mind". Well, it certainly won't if you don't present it. Data has certainly changed my mind on many things.

I would suggest re-reading this exchange; it is quite evidently not me who is being emotionally attached to something, without proper arguments.



> Specifically not what I said, I said the actions by themselves were superior, not me morally. And you don't believe someone's value structure can change their value as a person? How very tolerant and progressive of you.


Actions are usually lead by values, or do you tend to act against your values? So it's a derivation of that, which makes it equal. So specifically what you said, regardless of how you try to spin it.

Would you like to tell me, what the value of a person is objectively, and how to you evaluate it, not subjectively, but objectively? How do you define something being better, again, objectively, not subjectively...? I indeed do not people have an inherent objective value. They have a subjective value to ME. I can also convince others of MY values by making arguments, and if they're good enough, they might listen. I (and you), have all the right in the world to dislike and think badly of someone because of THEIR values, and how they oppose MY (or your) values. But to think someone is going to just accept what you think because you insulted them, is idiotic. (If you want, I can bring you DATA on this, but I do think it should be self-evident and obvious by itself...)
[/quote]



> Also, bolt gunning pig brains. Kind of a dick move. So not sure you wanna throw around the term *******.


See, this goes to the value structures again; you seem to think that meat-eaters are 'dicks', I do think there's good reasons for eating meat (but I also do appreciate the choice not to, in-fact, most of my friends are vegan).

To me, thinking you're superior to others for whatever reason, is one of the biggest causes of assholism, as I probably already made clear.

Feel free to provide actual arguments and statistics, other than ones based on (your..) values.


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## TwoMan (Feb 12, 2012)

BlackHorse said:


> Vegan food is also very delicious, and good for the mind and body.


Can you offer some wisdom regarding getting enough protein? It seems daunting. I am already rail thin and can't afford to lose more weight. Any advice?


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

m1111s said:


> Can you offer some wisdom regarding getting enough protein? It seems daunting. I am already rail thin and can't afford to lose more weight. Any advice?


Now that's what I call an avatar! I've been wanting to call a few people on SAS "Grasshopper" a number of times for ages now whenever they start talking about enlightenment.


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## TwoMan (Feb 12, 2012)

Master Po was one of the most memorable characters on TV ever. You must be old like me to recognize him.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

m1111s said:


> Master Po was one of the most memorable characters on TV ever. You must be old like me to recognize him.


Yes I am - I'm 59. I used to love that show.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

m1111s said:


> Can you offer some wisdom regarding getting enough protein? It seems daunting. I am already rail thin and can't afford to lose more weight. Any advice?


You don't actually need huge amounts of protein to be healthy. Beans and nuts will be fine. As far as weight, that is a function of calories more than protein. Make sure to eat a lot of calorie dense stuff like nuts and oils. It's probably better to go vegetarian first before vegan, then you can still eat milk, eggs and cheeses.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> Been saying for a while, insect protein is the way forward, nobody gives a **** about insects. Efficient too.


Definitely... I've seen a few products with cricket flour but not much else. Would have a huge positive impact on the planet if we switched to insect protein.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Suchness said:


> No need to eat insects when you can get all your amino acids from plants.


Ah, but you forget, insects are ****s.



Raies said:


> I personally do not believe that killing animals for food is unethical in itself. Prove me wrong.


This is the question that stumps some vegans. In no way is it inherently morally wrong to give an animal a really good life, kill it very cleanly and eat it (over it not existing at all). You would have to be a weird anti all life person to suggest that the pain at the end overrides the pleasantness of being a content cow in a field roaming about and making love to all the other cows (or whatever it is they get up to at night).


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## TwoMan (Feb 12, 2012)

MadnessVertigo said:


> Beans and nuts will be fine.


I do like beans and nuts but that can get a little boring. Are there different ways in which you prepare them?


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

If you want your proteins, I usually get them from processed veggie foods that are made to replace traditional meats. They usually do a pretty good job at providing you with all of the nutrients you need, and also free up a lot of your time so you are not left preparing all of the foods for yourself.  Almost any meat product you can think of, has a veggie alternative on the markets around here, and a lot of them taste really good. 

On a side note, they have as of yet to replicate a proper form of bacon.. and my family made some a few hours ago, and dang.. that is just cruel.. All of the veggie bacon strips I have tested so far, don't quite do it.. it sort of tastes like bacon, but it is missing all of the fat and grease.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation
> Of course, avoiding unnecessary pain etc. Just an example of things to consider. Now, for your arguments FOR veganism, since you haven't given any


I've made the argument, and I think it's quite an obvious one. I wish to prevent unneeded suffering, and I don't believe there is an ethical way of imprisoning and claiming an innocent sentient life, the justification for which boils down to separation based on empty classifications, such as "species." You could separate the races, or sexes, or any classification the same, so it has to be based on a legitimate parameter, of which has to be universal. Say intelligence:

If your reason for treating animals differently is due to their lower level of intelligence, then the same treatment should apply to mentally disabled humans. And if you agree that bolt gunning handicapped humans in the brain is ethical, fair game, your ethics are universal. Gross, but universal. But if you don't agree, your ethics are not consistent, making them unethical by virtue.



> I personally do not believe that killing animals for food is unethical in itself. Prove me wrong.


Lots of chicanery there, "unethical *in itself*" - "*Prove me wrong*".

Well, I have a question back at you. What is unethical by itself? If you can't present something, the question you posed is dishonest.



> Where have I made an emotional objection or argument? If you've ever read any of my posts, you'd know I'm not an emotional person. The same pills as you were, in your earlier post.
> A quick google-search would be a start, I guess.


Right, I'm asking you specifically, not google, because you made it sound like taking supplements meant the diet was unhealthy. "Afaik, most suggested diets are actually quite balanced, and veganism requires pills for a good reason." So I'm just wondering which supplement you meant.



> Values =/= emotions, and you can't really argue for superiority of values, objectively. You keep trying to misrepresent and/or devalue anything I say, without actually bringing any proper arguments to the table yourself. "Data wouldn't change your mind". Well, it certainly won't if you don't present it. Data has certainly changed my mind on many things.
> 
> Actions are usually lead by values, or do you tend to act against your values? So it's a derivation of that, which makes it equal. So specifically what you said, regardless of how you try to spin it.
> 
> Would you like to tell me, what the value of a person is objectively, and how to you evaluate it, not subjectively, but objectively? How do you define something being better, again, objectively, not subjectively...? I indeed do not people have an inherent objective value. They have a subjective value to ME. I can also convince others of MY values by making arguments, and if they're good enough, they might listen. I (and you), have all the right in the world to dislike and think badly of someone because of THEIR values, and how they oppose MY (or your) values. But to think someone is going to just accept what you think because you insulted them, is idiotic. (If you want, I can bring you DATA on this, but I do think it should be self-evident and obvious by itself...)


Just stop.

An action can have a value onto itself. An action does not dictate someone's entire moral character.

Now, tell me where I made any claim of objectivity in the realm of morality, and why you keep magnifying that point several times. I said once how I felt, and clarified it afterwards. Never did I say anything about "objective values" so I have no idea what triggered that rant.

Also, data? You just went on a rant about the subjectivity of values, how does data factor into this? So yes, I'd like to see the data on that.

Nothing in the domains of morality is objective. What is the conclusion? You shouldn't be passionate about your subjective ethics?



> See, this goes to the value structures again; you seem to think that meat-eaters are 'dicks', I do think there's good reasons for eating meat (but I also do appreciate the choice not to, in-fact, most of my friends are vegan).


What are the good reasons?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976

Could go into heart disease, but you know, since most people counter with some sort of hormone thing: the above.



> To me, thinking you're superior to others for whatever reason, is one of the biggest causes of assholism, as I probably already made clear.


Well, personally, I can take bad attitudes and words. Slitting the throats of chickens and bolt gunning cows and pigs after keeping them crammed and contained for years, I do consider assholish. So I guess we differ there.


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## Wren611 (Oct 19, 2012)

BlackHorse said:


> Being a vegan is healthier than most diets, without eating animals or harming them in the process.
> 
> Vegan food is also very delicious, and good for the mind and body.
> 
> Lets make this happen together and all become vegan.


No.

The vegan diet honestly isn't good for the mind or body, because you're not getting all you need from meats, eggs and dairy products. People try to tell you these things, tugging at the heartstrings, saying it's "cruel" to eat animals, because these people are soft, weak members of our species who've forgotten that we're naturally an omnivorous animal. This is how we evolved and got our "big brains"; we ate meat.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Wren611 said:


> No.
> 
> The vegan diet honestly isn't good for the mind or body, because you're not getting all you need from meats, eggs and dairy products. People try to tell you these things, tugging at the heartstrings, saying it's "cruel" to eat animals, because these people are soft, weak members of our species who've forgotten that we're naturally an omnivorous animal. This is how we evolved and got our "big brains"; we ate meat.


So I guess you know more than the American Dietetic Association?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

And also, appeal to nature. Murder and rape is natural.

And thirdly, that's not how evolution works. It works through mutation, not environment. So the people who mutated bigger brains survived longer and had more children. Meat, or any other environmental factors had no affects on this, it was all mutation.


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## Sainthood (Jun 1, 2018)

Wren611 said:


> No.
> 
> The vegan diet honestly isn't good for the mind or body, because you're not getting all you need from meats, eggs and dairy products. People try to tell you these things, tugging at the heartstrings, saying it's "cruel" to eat animals, because these people are soft, weak members of our species who've forgotten that we're naturally an omnivorous animal. This is how we evolved and got our "big brains"; we ate meat.


Actually the only thing you don't get is B12 and at that point you can take supplements or eat B12 fortified foods (cereals, non-dairy milks, nutritional yeast, etc.) Even regular dairy milk in Canada is fortified with vitamin D by law because so many Canadians had a Vitamin D deficiency, so it isn't just vegans that aren't getting enough nutrients. A study conducted at Harvard also suggested that meat wasn't plentiful enough back in those times to have been the main contributor to our brain growth as a species.


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## Jolese (Jan 4, 2005)

It's my goal to eat vegan many more days of my life, in fact most days. I need to hear about some of those super delicious vegan foods/meals. I had this dried kale , it was seasoned so perfectly I could eat only that for the rest of my life if I had to. What are some of the best vegan dishes/foods/simple delights out there?


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

I like cheese and chocolate milk too much to be vegan, but I am a "mostly vegetarian" person. I'm not going to stop eating baked beans or Hawaiian pizza because there is a little ham for example. I also don't like onions, peppers, or spicy food so a lot of the complex vegan recipes just aren't what I like.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> I've made the argument, and I think it's quite an obvious one. I wish to prevent unneeded suffering, and I don't believe there is an ethical way of imprisoning and claiming an innocent sentient life, the justification for which boils down to separation based on empty classifications, such as "species." You could separate the races, or sexes, or any classification the same, so it has to be based on a legitimate parameter, of which has to be universal. Say intelligence:
> 
> If your reason for treating animals differently is due to their lower level of intelligence, then the same treatment should apply to mentally disabled humans. And if you agree that bolt gunning handicapped humans in the brain is ethical, fair game, your ethics are universal. Gross, but universal. But if you don't agree, your ethics are not consistent, making them unethical by virtue.


Edit:* I go on about the same for a lot here, for reasons you can read if you wish. Might want to skip to the quotation of your studies if you don't want to read a lot of it.

Well I do set it at species. How are they empty classifications? Sure you could. And you've probably heard of cannibalism, yes?
As I've been trying to get through your skull, values are subjective. I choose what I think is ethical to eat, I don't expect others to follow mine without justification; some I oppose in my value structure (such as cannibalism), that I feel it to be necessary to fight against, if it came to that. That, still, is subjective. I am lucky to live in a society that agrees with many of my values.



> Lots of chicanery there, "unethical *in itself*" - "*Prove me wrong*".
> 
> Well, I have a question back at you. What is unethical by itself? If you can't present something, the question you posed is dishonest.


Read above. This was the point I already made in this, and a few previous posts. You can't prove it wrong, because it's subjective; why would I change something that works for me, and has worked for me in the past, unless you give me a good reason to...? (That strikes me subjectively, it being very valuable to your subjective experience of reality is non-important to me)



> Right, I'm asking you specifically, not google, because you made it sound like taking supplements meant the diet was unhealthy. "Afaik, most suggested diets are actually quite balanced, and veganism requires pills for a good reason." So I'm just wondering which supplement you meant.


And the google link stated the ones that are hardest to get. Very likely those. Of course, some varies on what is available for your diet.
I'm no expert on this, nor do I claim to know enough to argue over this.
But it wouldn't be the breaking argument for me. I would imagine, that writing 'afaik' would imply that I don't claim to know much, but I guess I was with that.



> Just stop.
> 
> An action can have a value onto itself. An action does not dictate someone's entire moral character.


 And action needs to be given value by something. Objectively there's no values.
And I did not claim that an action dictates someone's entire moral character.



> Now, tell me where I made any claim of objectivity in the realm of morality, and why you keep magnifying that point several times. I said once how I felt, and clarified it afterwards. Never did I say anything about "objective values" so I have no idea what triggered that rant.
> 
> Also, data? You just went on a rant about the subjectivity of values, how does data factor into this? So yes, I'd like to see the data on that.


 Data on what? It would be relatively obvious with the values as you claimed yourself, I can bring you psychological evidence on values and arguments, if you wish. There's a plethora of that available.



> Nothing in the domains of morality is objective. What is the conclusion? You shouldn't be passionate about your subjective ethics?


This is what I was referring to with the data and the original reply I made; if you're passionate about something, calling someone idiots or stupid for the crime of disagreeing with you, is counter-productive. This is, of course, assuming that you'd want others to share your values in the thing you're passionate about.



> What are the good reasons?
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976
> ...


That's much better already. The first study was an interesting read, the second not much so. Yes, that is a valid point and a high percentage of (especially male) deaths is due to this. Perhaps it's hormones or whatever, but I'd call bs on that, as diet and fitness affects so much. About prostate cancer, I remember reading that especially grilled (charred) meat is a very potent cause for this.

I do think it makes many valid points to the benefit of a plant-based diet.
Personally, however, while I do acknowledge that it would benefit many people (and yes, I would probably even suggest many people to increase vegetables & decrease meat/fats), I don't really worry about heart disease etc mentioned there, as I already mentioned, I eat quite a balanced diet (a ton of fruits!), and am physically active. (So heart disease is quite unlikely to happen, at least at my current pace).



> Well, personally, I can take bad attitudes and words. Slitting the throats of chickens and bolt gunning cows and pigs after keeping them crammed and contained for years, I do consider assholish. So I guess we differ there.


We actually don't(completely, at least); this is what I was pointing to. I would support any laws that made sure all farmed animals have decent living conditions. My point is more so that I do think it's okay to farm them, and I don't think it's wrong to eat meat. But it should be done without causing them suffering.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

m1111s said:


> I do like beans and nuts but that can get a little boring. Are there different ways in which you prepare them?


In addition to what Zonebox said about imitation meats, I think exploring ethnic foods is a good way as well. Beans and grains are a staple in many countries since it's cheap and nutritious. For nuts you can do nut butters, or crumble whole ones into oatmeal or on salads.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> Edit:* I go on about the same for a lot here, for reasons you can read if you wish. Might want to skip to the quotation of your studies if you don't want to read a lot of it.
> 
> Well I do set it at species. How are they empty classifications? Sure you could. And you've probably heard of cannibalism, yes?
> As I've been trying to get through your skull, values are subjective. I choose what I think is ethical to eat, I don't expect others to follow mine without justification; some I oppose in my value structure (such as cannibalism), that I feel it to be necessary to fight against, if it came to that. That, still, is subjective. I am lucky to live in a society that agrees with many of my values.


Still wondering where I've made any claim of objectivity. We are having a discussion about ethics, obviously our subjective sensibilities and values are clashing. What is even your point?

"Animal" is not a valid difference as it isn't a trait. It's like saying, "you're Raies, which makes you different, therefore you deserve death." There is no rationale. What I'm looking for is something beyond the classification. What is it about animals that makes them unworthy of staying alive, and what gives you the right to exploit them for your own purposes, in your moral structure? I want to know the trait, that if present in humans, would make it okay to kill a human.



> Read above. This was the point I already made in this, and a few previous posts. You can't prove it wrong, because it's subjective; why would I change something that works for me, and has worked for me in the past, unless you give me a good reason to...? (That strikes me subjectively, it being very valuable to your subjective experience of reality is non-important to me)


When did I try proving the legitimacy of subjectivity in matters of ethics false? I don't know if you're intentionally misdirecting the discussion, but I'm not continuing in this vein, because it's so evidently not about me or my words.



> And action needs to be given value by something. Objectively there's no values.
> And I did not claim that an action dictates someone's entire moral character.


Again, what is this referring to? Yes, we are talking about our ideas. We each value them, will you now adress anything I've said?



> This is what I was referring to with the data and the original reply I made; if you're passionate about something, calling someone idiots or stupid for the crime of disagreeing with you, is counter-productive. This is, of course, assuming that you'd want others to share your values in the thing you're passionate about.


Right, unfortunately I'm not a robot programmed to serve the vegan purpose. I'm a flawed human, so I'm not gonna operate perfectly. If people salvage something from my points, of which there is legitimate intelligence behind despite the, at times, distasteful delivery, I've attracted the kind of people I wanted.

And yes, I'm not the best man to pioneer this cause, I simply try to get people thinking, which may direct them to a more competent "convincer." I'm not well with all the kiss-*** courteousness necessary.



> That's much better already. The first study was an interesting read, the second not much so. Yes, that is a valid point and a high percentage of (especially male) deaths is due to this. Perhaps it's hormones or whatever, but I'd call bs on that, as diet and fitness affects so much. About prostate cancer, I remember reading that especially grilled (charred) meat is a very potent cause for this.
> 
> I do think it makes many valid points to the benefit of a plant-based diet.
> Personally, however, while I do acknowledge that it would benefit many people (and yes, I would probably even suggest many people to increase vegetables & decrease meat/fats), I don't really worry about heart disease etc mentioned there, as I already mentioned, I eat quite a balanced diet (a ton of fruits!), and am physically active. (So heart disease is quite unlikely to happen, at least at my current pace).


The point is to prove that a vegan diet is not detrimental, leaving the ethical question by itself. So I take it you don't have any objections to the vegan diet in terms of health? If you do, present them. If not, what is your justification for killing sentient beings?



> We actually don't(completely, at least); this is what I was pointing to. I would support any laws that made sure all farmed animals have decent living conditions. My point is more so that I do think it's okay to farm them, and I don't think it's wrong to eat meat. But it should be done without causing them suffering.


Still looking for a justification to claim a sentient life.

It's all good and well to support some hypothetical law that will never come to pass, but you are presumably still eating meat, thereby economically supporting the modern industry and torturous conditions of these animals.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

The above, I feel, was handled to a reasonable extent.



Siegfried said:


> The point is to prove that a vegan diet is not detrimental, leaving the ethical question by itself. So I take it you don't have any objections to the vegan diet in terms of health? If you do, present them. If not, what is your justification for killing sentient beings?


I don't, necessarily; you can balance it and if your values say you should, go for it by all means. More power to you. I appreciate the ethical ideals behind it, and if someone thinks they can be more healthy through it, great!

My justification is, that I don't really see the difference between killing a plant or an animal, taken, that I would probably have an easier time being emotionally attached to an animal than a plant, and would more likely question eating an animal than a plant. That being said, I generally don't argue over eating any animals as long as it's for survival/food specifically.
If you want to stretch it, you can start arguing over plants feeling pain. It's hard to draw a line, but generally, anything non-human can be eaten, but I have personal preferences, mainly for emotional reasons (I wouldn't eat my cat, for example..)

If you go for why not eat humans then.. Well, I guess the reasoning is somewhat the same as why I care about my family more than a random human on the street?
Because my family is closer to me. And that's I guess how it works with the species thing.



> It's all good and well to support some hypothetical law that will never come to pass, but you are presumably still eating meat, thereby economically supporting the modern industry and torturous conditions of these animals.


Not if you buy meat that is produced ethically, though. Then you support bettering the treatment of the animals 
For example fish and chicken, in my country at least, is quite easy to choose, if you want to be ethical with your food.


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## kennelmaid (May 27, 2018)

I call myself vegan, I don't eat meat, fish, eggs or drink milk because I genuinely care about animals and hate the sickening way that farmed animals are treated and the short, miserable lives they have. In fact I'm a member of a vegan group. HOWEVER, I still buy, cook and pull apart 6kg of chicken thighs every week for my dogs because I daren't stand up to my husband and tell him I'm not doing it anymore. I've told him I find it distressing and sickening and it makes me a hypocrite but he would go mad at me if I point blank refused to do it and he would probably tell me to leave.


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## Suchness (Aug 13, 2011)

andy0128 said:


> What do you vegans eat/ drink on a typical days....supplements included?
> 
> Also do you abstain from medications or other products that have come about from animal exploitation?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For supplements I take a multivitamin, I could probably just take b12 and be alright but better safe than sorry. A lot of the soil we grow crops on are nutrient deficient because of improper use. I take flaxseed oil for omega 3 but im switching over to algae, thats where its at. 
As for food, I try to get a variety of beans, lentils, grains, fruits and vegetables throughout the week.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> The above, I feel, was handled to a reasonable extent.
> 
> I don't, necessarily; you can balance it and if your values say you should, go for it by all means. More power to you. I appreciate the ethical ideals behind it, and if someone thinks they can be more healthy through it, great!
> 
> ...


Alright, now we've narrowed it, and I would say we're at a stand still, because your justification will continue in the same tracks. It's alright to kill them because they are too genetically different, they're the other, animals. It doesn't matter if they have a will to live, or the capacity to suffer, the fact that they differ is where you ground your reasons for killing, which I don't feel holds up. Lots of things differ from you, it doesn't give you the right to enslave and butcher them.

The issue still remains that the justification, "animal," could be used the same against you. Forget the sexes and races, say an alien species came to earth, vastly more intelligent than humans, and enslaved us, killed us "ethically' and consumed us. In your moral structure, this would be perfectly ethical. If you tell me, "it only applies to humans," well, your ethics are selective and arbitrary, making your whole moral structure crumble. Because I could make mine arbitrary as well, Raies deserves death and it only applies to him. Why? Because he's Raies.

Ethics have to be consistent, otherwise the structure you base it on becomes illegitimate, and can be used to justify absolutely anything.

A plant is not sentient, a plant does not possess a nervous system, a plant does not have a will to live.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Can't really be asked getting involved in this thread and have no stake in this, but just wanted to point out there are many reasons to become a vegan besides health and ethics over killing animals, don't know if anyone brought those up, because I also don't want to read the entirety of this thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_use_in_livestock

etc

edit: Lol I thought I had some vague memory of making a post about insects in here before. Turns out I posted before quickly



kennelmaid said:


> I call myself vegan, I don't eat meat, fish, eggs or drink milk because I genuinely care about animals and hate the sickening way that farmed animals are treated and the short, miserable lives they have. In fact I'm a member of a vegan group. HOWEVER, I still buy, cook and pull apart 6kg of chicken thighs every week for my dogs because I daren't stand up to my husband and tell him I'm not doing it anymore. I've told him I find it distressing and sickening and it makes me a hypocrite but he would go mad at me if I point blank refused to do it and he would probably tell me to leave.


Do you share the dogs? Why does he make you do it? That just seems like an abusive dynamic since you're scared to speak up about it.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> Been saying for a while, insect protein is the way forward, nobody gives a **** about insects. Efficient too.





unemployment simulator said:


> completely agree, more environmentally friendly to farm/transport etc. its just everyone in the west tends to be grossed out by insects.
> I don't actually hate most of the edible ones but I get the feeling most people in the world give less of a crap about them then animals.


This actually makes me less inclined personally to eat them though lol. On the one hand though there's the antisocial aspect - people would be grossed out by me eating them, which is kind of good because I'm antisocial, but on the other hand I feel bad that everyone hates them which is another thing I do, and is slightly more important than being antisocial, so I can't eat them.

But yeah it's an objectively better source of protein.


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## Kalakotkas (Feb 15, 2018)

I agree on insects, there is much potential there as an alternative, more sustainable source of proteins. Besides, with their primitive nervous system, they probably do not feel pain and sufference like vertebrates.
I tried fried caterpillars, grasshoppers and raw termites and they're honestly pretty good if you close your eyes and do not think too much about them.


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## Ominous Indeed (Sep 6, 2015)

A lot of you look at the reasons for becoming Vegan/Vegetarian but does anyone ever look at the reasons for staying or becoming an Omnivore?


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## Nekobasu (Apr 22, 2018)

Well I eat lots of meat and eggs. Oh and the squirrels I killed in my attic I skinned them and ate them too.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Ominous Indeed said:


> A lot of you look at the reasons for becoming Vegan/Vegetarian but does anyone ever look at the reasons for staying or becoming an Omnivore?


I was a vegetarian for about 8 years. Gained a vast amount of weight, health went to ****.

Don't have the time, inclination, money, or enough care about the plight of animals to do it properly. If there comes a point in time where its very easy for me to do, I can do it without really thinking about it, I might cut down on meat consumption, but I am not really bothered enough tbh. It's the default position, simple because its easier, and it is easier to maintain a good diet because of effort .

As a vegan, it isn't actually as simple as taking a multivitamin to cover everything, because many people have genetic abnormalities in how they process certain vitamins (see, b12, folic acid, the methylation cycle etc) and that some forms of vitamins in multivitamins are badly absorbed (and for example, non heme iron, from vegetables sucks compared to heme). There are also health problems associated with too many vitamins and minerals, so yeh, it isn't quite as straightforward to get right, if you actually really care about diet.

I also don't see this as an all or nothing proposition.

1. The most moral position is to eat some meat that has been well treated during its life.
2. The next best moral position is to be vegan
3. The next best moral position is to be vegetarian
4. The next best moral position is to limit meat consumption
5. The worst moral position is to eat tonnes of factory farmed meat

1 will confuse vegans, but see my earlier post for explanation.

There is also morality outside of this though. Maybe an individual can reduce suffering in a more efficient way by spending their time doing something positive outside of reducing meat consumption? Your moral footprint is your whole life. Choosing to minimise harm in other ways, instead of giving a **** about animals is a perfectly rational way to look at things.


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

Suchness said:


> For supplements I take a multivitamin, I could probably just take b12 and be alright but better safe than sorry. A lot of the soil we grow crops on are nutrient deficient because of improper use. I take flaxseed oil for omega 3 but im switching over to algae, thats where its at.
> As for food, I try to get a variety of beans, lentils, grains, fruits and vegetables throughout the week.


Did someone advise you on the supplements and doses to take? Can it not depend on the type of meals you eat on a given day?


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> This is the question that stumps some vegans. In no way is it inherently morally wrong to give an animal a really good life, kill it very cleanly and eat it (over it not existing at all). You would have to be a weird anti all life person to suggest that the pain at the end overrides the pleasantness of being a content cow in a field roaming about and making love to all the other cows (or whatever it is they get up to at night).


Strange phrasing. Nothing is inherently morally wrong. It wouldn't be inherently mortally wrong for me to walk outside and stab the first person I see. Morals aren't inherent.

But to address the point: it's ludicrous. In no way could the modern meat industry, or even a fraction of it be sustained by ensuring a prosperous and happy life for each animal, and in the end slaughtering them "humanely" (something I don't believe is possible, but whatever.) If this was done somehow, meat would be such a luxurious item that the prices would sky rocket, eliminating the industry all together. There is simply too much meat to be distributed. And regulating this process would be tyrannical. And even if we did get to this point, I believe our priorities would lie elsewhere, or we would have developed a different way of attaining meat, such as growing it artificially.

Nevermind the fact that such a process would hold such value, that breaking the rules would become inevitable. Pumping a cow with 21 drugs, as we do today, would be a million times more efficient. Companies always work around the law, and I don't believe playing with life for a trivial purpose is worth it. There are too many variables, and so much complexity that the economical gain would in the end be null, if completely regulated. And if it wasn't regulated, the animals would be exploited anyways, taking us back to square one.

And that's accepting the proposition that enslaving a cow, keeping it restrained and ensuring its happiness, only to be slaughtered in the end for the empty purpose of 'feel good taste buds' would be ethical.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

Ominous Indeed said:


> A lot of you look at the reasons for becoming Vegan/Vegetarian but does anyone ever look at the reasons for staying or becoming an Omnivore?


It is a lot easier, the food tastes better for most people. For some people, there may be health concerns, my wife tried being a vegetarian and while she did so her blood pressure was high, her sugar levels peaked higher, one of the factors of me being a vegetarian was for her to get better, she actually started to get worst. It is not as though she were eating foods high in sugar, it was a very odd thing. After she stopped being a vegetarian, she started to get better. She is on an Atkins style diet right now, and amazingly her blood pressure is stabilizing to much better levels. As expected her sugar levels are better as well. I hope this trend continues, without any consequence later down the road.. she has also lost some weight. I tried atkins once a few years ago, and it is a hell of a diet, I did not like it at all.

Our household is weird :lol Someone who almost exclusively eats animal products, and another that is a vegetarian.

I am a vegetarian out of my own set of ethics, I don't need to eat meat, I also feel sorry for the animals.. even if we believe they are enjoying life to the end, I'm sure most of them would rather not be slaughtered to be consumed by people. Imagine if they did






I do hope one day, that technology progresses to the point where animals are no longer slaughtered for consumption, but we can provide the same types of food that were once derived from animals. Although humans being the timid little creatures we are when it comes to progress, and how anti GMO people currently are, such a time will be a long ways off.


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## smoothlinghs (Jun 2, 2018)

That is a great idea!


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> Alright, now we've narrowed it, and I would say we're at a stand still, because your justification will continue in the same tracks. It's alright to kill them because they are too genetically different, they're the other, animals. It doesn't matter if they have a will to live, or the capacity to suffer, the fact that they differ is where you ground your reasons for killing, which I don't feel holds up. Lots of things differ from you, it doesn't give you the right to enslave and butcher them.


But the same goes for anything else, including plants. If a human is unconscious, do you have the right to kill it?
How about mental impairment? At what point does it become right to kill a human, when they aren't up to par? If you base it on this.
How about animals, who have a lower consciousness. What stages of consciousness is acceptable to kill? 
How about insects, that you cause to die by eating plants? Why do they deserve to die for your food?



> The issue still remains that the justification, "animal," could be used the same against you. Forget the sexes and races, say an alien species came to earth, vastly more intelligent than humans, and enslaved us, killed us "ethically' and consumed us.


And what would you do if they were to do just that? Fight or complain that it's unethical? If they're stronger, your understanding of ethics wouldn't be of much value.
I don't think this argument holds much water, unless you make the presupposition that your understanding of ethics would somehow affect the ethics of the alien species. I personally would expect any alien species to act in a way that is most beneficial for them, and expect myself to react accordingly. This is, of course, very hypothetical.



> In your moral structure, this would be perfectly ethical. If you tell me, "it only applies to humans," well, your ethics are selective and arbitrary, making your whole moral structure crumble. Because I could make mine arbitrary as well, Raies deserves death and it only applies to him. Why? Because he's Raies.


But because we live in societies, and societies strive to survive, and therefore have set up laws that ensure survival. In the wild, nothing would stop you from doing just that. Here, you'd have consequences, yes? I don't think I need to start explaining social philosophy here, do I?

But I could just as well claim that your ethics are arbitrary: How do you justify killing one living thing over another. Where do YOU set the limit? If it's not species..? You mentioned consciousness. Well, the insects that die for your food are conscious: https://www.researchonline.mq.edu.au/vital/access/services/Download/mq:44848/DS01
Even then, the studies on consciousness are far from clear cut, and it would be even more difficult to define the killable species based on consciousness than it would based on pretty much anything else...



> Ethics have to be consistent, otherwise the structure you base it on becomes illegitimate, and can be used to justify absolutely anything.
> 
> A plant is not sentient, a plant does not possess a nervous system, a plant does not have a will to live.


Read above.
So why is one living thing more valuable than another? Nervous system and will to live, are quite arbitrary as well.
I would, again, mention insects that you cause to die by eating plants.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> But the same goes for anything else, including plants. If a human is unconscious, do you have the right to kill it?
> How about mental impairment? At what point does it become right to kill a human, when they aren't up to par? If you base it on this.
> How about animals, who have a lower consciousness. What stages of consciousness is acceptable to kill?
> How about insects, that you cause to die by eating plants? Why do they deserve to die for your food?


If a human is unconscious, it still has the potential for consciousness. A plant never has the potential for consciousness.

I don't believe there is a state of human consciousness that resembles a bug, our brains are simply too different. It would also be impossible, through our modern methods, to measure someone's level of consciousness. We can make educated evaluations based on action, as that's how we understand the world. If a human lacked response, or acted, I guess, similar to a bug? I would assume the person is mentally ill, but does not possess the same level of cognitive ability as a bug. And that's ignoring the capacity to suffer, of which is much, much greater in humans.

So bearing all that in mind, even if the human had the same level of consciousness as a bug, and we could know this 100%, he would still differ in nervous system. And if you're telling me that the nervous system is the same as in a bug, well what is that person then? A bug in a human body? Not much more than a corpse at that point. So sure, treat it as such.

There obviously is a stage of consciousness we can't ignore. It would be better if nothing had to die and suffer, but such is the consequence of the world. So the question becomes, which is preferable to kill for survival? A pig with a fully functioning nervous system and will to live, or the incidental death of a few bugs whose consciousness is far lower, and ability to suffer far inferior?

Asking for the precise point of sentience where it becomes okay to kill is not reasonable either. It's sort of like asking at what measurement of force it is okay to shoulder bump your friend before it becomes a punch. There is an obvious escalation we all have apparent to us, and a cow, or a pig, or a chicken is quite different from a bug in terms of awareness. I think we can both agree on this.



> And what would you do if they were to do just that? Fight or complain that it's unethical? If they're stronger, your understanding of ethics wouldn't be of much value.
> I don't think this argument holds much water, unless you make the presupposition that your understanding of ethics would somehow affect the ethics of the alien species. I personally would expect any alien species to act in a way that is most beneficial for them, and expect myself to react accordingly. This is, of course, very hypothetical.


Your answer is pragmatic. I don't consider my morals pragmatic, they transcend pragmatism and what's useful in the moment. Answer the question as if you were an observer: would it be ethical for the aliens to enslave and consume the humans?



> But because we live in societies, and societies strive to survive, and therefore have set up laws that ensure survival. In the wild, nothing would stop you from doing just that. Here, you'd have consequences, yes? I don't think I need to start explaining social philosophy here, do I?
> 
> But I could just as well claim that your ethics are arbitrary: How do you justify killing one living thing over another. Where do YOU set the limit? If it's not species..? You mentioned consciousness. Well, the insects that die for your food are conscious: https://www.researchonline.mq.edu.au/vital/access/services/Download/mq:44848/DS01
> Even then, the studies on consciousness are far from clear cut, and it would be even more difficult to define the killable species based on consciousness than it would based on pretty much anything else...


Yes, well there are lots of things we don't understand about the world. But using our current knowledge, what is the best option ethically? We know the animals we currently consume suffer terrible conditions, only to be slaughtered in the end. We know they have fully functioning nervous systems, and the will to live, so where does your preference lie?

I would also like to say that a lot more plants, and as a consequence bugs, are cut down during the production of meat to feed the livestock. So even in the hypothetical that plants are sentient and of equal value, less plants and bugs would die if the world went vegan.



> Read above.
> So why is one living thing more valuable than another? Nervous system and will to live, are quite arbitrary as well.
> I would, again, mention insects that you cause to die by eating plants.


I think I've answered those.

Would just like to say that getting bogged down like this makes the discussion blurry, and gives more ways of escaping the question at hand. If you're honest intellectually, I'm sure you understand this. So what we know is that the meat we produce causes massive amounts of suffering and death. Saying "oh, if we transition to veganism, bugs will die anyways and so will plants, and they also suffer, so why even bother" I consider a sort of evasion of the fact that we do have the ability to stop this suffering we know for a fact to be real, but most of us choose not to.


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Blue Dino said:


> I've always wanted to try that whenever I spot them in TJs. But I am not spending almost $10 for a dozen cookies. Maybe I will once if they are that good... hm.


I went to Trader Joe's today. The vegan cookies are $4.50.


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

> Strange phrasing. Nothing is inherently morally wrong. It wouldn't be inherently mortally wrong for me to walk outside and stab the first person I see. Morals aren't inherent.


Nihilism will always be thrown into a discussion to try to rationalise certain viewpoints. We all know that killing people is unacceptable in a civilized society apart from extreme situations. Killing animals is also wrong although there are obviously exceptions when they become a menace or spread diseases. However we are in a transition from being omnivores to becoming vegan and there are huge economic factors at work that won't allow it to be phased out overnight and i don't think its as simple as demonizing everyone who isnt 100% vegan yet or who participates in the exploitation of animals.


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## Jolese (Jan 4, 2005)

Somebody mentioned in this thread doing more ethnic dishes because of how they incorporate beans, nuts. Yes I think overall this is the way to go. It's a great approach for many meals.

The difficulty with eating vegan is really feeling like you enjoyed the food you just ate and finding the food appetizing in the first place. I saw a vegan woman online eat lettuce, nut butter a banana and some dried fruit and that looked AMAZING! I still have yet to try it though. But often a lot of vegan dishes don't come off as appealing as that. Or if you read vegan recipes they don't feel as inspiring. Still would like to hear what other vegan foods people really like.


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## RelinquishedHell (Apr 10, 2012)

Why would I want to do that? Without the modern convenience of supplementation, vegan diets are actually very unhealthy since that is not the way we are meant to eat.


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## 0Kelly0 (Feb 24, 2018)

No thanks. What's life without dairy products? I basically live off them.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Jolese said:


> Somebody mentioned in this thread doing more ethnic dishes because of how they incorporate beans, nuts. Yes I think overall this is the way to go. It's a great approach for many meals.
> 
> The difficulty with eating vegan is really feeling like you enjoyed the food you just ate and finding the food appetizing in the first place. I saw a vegan woman online eat lettuce, nut butter a banana and some dried fruit and that looked AMAZING! I still have yet to try it though. But often a lot of vegan dishes don't come off as appealing as that. Or if you read vegan recipes they don't feel as inspiring. Still would like to hear what other vegan foods people really like.


My favorite is Indian (which Harrison mentioned). I could eat curry everyday. I love it. There are many types of Indian food but the most common that you find in the US is more for vegetarians. Much of it contains dairy. Now if you can find a South Indian restaurant it will be more vegan focused.

I also like Thai. Cause with most Thai entrees you usually get a choice of chicken, beef, pork, tofu, or mixed vegetables. I usually get tofu with my usual entrees- massaman curry and pineapple fried rice.


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## unemployment simulator (Oct 18, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> This actually makes me less inclined personally to eat them though lol. On the one hand though there's the antisocial aspect - people would be grossed out by me eating them, which is kind of good because I'm antisocial, but on the other hand I feel bad that everyone hates them which is another thing I do, and is slightly more important than being antisocial, so I can't eat them.
> 
> But yeah it's an objectively better source of protein.


yea I see that, I mean I spoke to my family about this once and they were like ewww what the hell? I even considered farming them myself, can you imagine how that would go down? :lol

them; so these are your mealworms for your pet yea?
me; no I eat them.
them; da***!?

but I think if restaurants were to get onto this and start marketing it well I think we as a society can start making progress. people may have been confused and weirded out by veganism at first but once it became popular it sort of broke that barrier of normality. i'd like to see the same thing done for entomophagy.

in a perfect world I would have a smallholding with happy free range hens and a happy animal I could milk for dairy. but I am not sure that's ever gonna happen, just expenses and ****, plus it's a ***** to acquire land in this country.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

unemployment simulator said:


> yea I see that, I mean I spoke to my family about this once and they were like ewww what the hell? I even considered farming them myself, can you imagine how that would go down? :lol
> 
> them; so these are your mealworms for your pet yea?
> me; no I eat them.
> ...


Actually just saw this lol:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/5141a1ed-d598-46ec-8e41-ccee1f0486ac


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## unemployment simulator (Oct 18, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Actually just saw this lol:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/5141a1ed-d598-46ec-8e41-ccee1f0486ac





> *please don't let cockroach milk become a thing*
> *please don't let cockroach milk become a thing*
> *please don't let cockroach milk become a thing*
> *please don't let cockroach milk become a thing*
> *please don't let cockroach milk become a thing*


:lol
I actually want it to become a thing now, this might be entertaining. I don't get why people freak out over what other people eat when its simply not their taste and it's not causing harm? it's not them that is having to eat it. I mean just live and let live right?


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## Jolese (Jan 4, 2005)

komorikun said:


> My favorite is Indian (which Harrison mentioned). I could eat curry everyday. I love it. There are many types of Indian food but the most common that you find in the US is more for vegetarians. Much of it contains dairy. Now if you can find a South Indian restaurant it will be more vegan focused.
> 
> I also like Thai. Cause with most Thai entrees you usually get a choice of chicken, beef, pork, tofu, or mixed vegetables. I usually get tofu with my usual entrees- massaman curry and pineapple fried rice.


Yes Indian, of course. I have always been confused at the mention of curry. What is it? A particular variety of pepper? Or does curry simply refer to the sauce that is often seen in Indian food. I had a dried packet of savory, yes SAVORY, oatmeal that was Indian style of cooking if I remember correctly. It was delicious and I wanted to replicate it using fresh ingredients, but never found a good recipe. Oatmeal is one of those foods that is very good for you, but can be boring. So the Indian twist of veggies and spices in the oatmeal was a wonderful twist.

I have never had Thai. It seems very meat based. I will look into your meal suggestion. It sounds good.


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## cat001 (Nov 1, 2010)

Not that I’m against veganism is or vegetarianism but if animals and ethics are the concern then I think it should be made aware that agriculture is one of the main causes of species decline, ahead of animal farming as a much larger area of land requires conversion for agriculture than it does for animals. Agriculture can also erode soil, thereby contributing to environmental degradation. Soybean plantations and palm oil (often labelled as vegetable oil among many other names) are prime examples of crops that contribute strongly to biodiversity loss and enviromental damage, these foods are also ‘vegan friendly’ yet contribute directly to deforestation, animal deaths and species decline. I’m not trying to put anyone off a vegan diet but it’s an issue that really needs to be addressed.


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## Canadian Brotha (Jan 23, 2009)

Veganism is like religion, if you’re not all in then all you end up with is a persistent nuisance. I’ve seen the sad conditions factory farming can produce but if I’m honest seeing that has never made me want to give up meat, it has made me well aware that as a species we could consume far less of it overall though. 

As far as animal rights go I’m probably more disturbed by zoos, I mean we bring species(some endangered or in dramatic decline)into totally irregular climates for many of them & then cage them to be ogled for their lifetimes...

At least we can trace the consumption of meat back to nature, some species consume others to sustain themselves, that’s what evolution produced. Yes we’ve blown that hugely out of proportion but to me that’s down to our exponential growth/over population not meat eating being inherently wrong.

Anyway, in saying all that what I’m really saying is I’ll never be a vegan. Best wishes to those that chose that path though


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Siegfried said:


> Strange phrasing. Nothing is inherently morally wrong. It wouldn't be inherently mortally wrong for me to walk outside and stab the first person I see. Morals aren't inherent.
> 
> But to address the point: it's ludicrous. In no way could the modern meat industry, or even a fraction of it be sustained by ensuring a prosperous and happy life for each animal, and in the end slaughtering them "humanely" (something I don't believe is possible, but whatever.) If this was done somehow, meat would be such a luxurious item that the prices would sky rocket, eliminating the industry all together. There is simply too much meat to be distributed. And regulating this process would be tyrannical. And even if we did get to this point, I believe our priorities would lie elsewhere, or we would have developed a different way of attaining meat, such as growing it artificially.
> 
> ...


Meant to reply to this and totally forgot, sry mate.

Re the middle stuff, yeh, we are in agreement, quite clearly consuming meat, as we do now isn't good, because economically its impossible to provide good conditions. That argument I am not going to disagree with.

But (approaching this topic more as an interesting intellectual one), it's your final paragraph that I was getting at. An animal that lives:

1. A life in accordance with its natural proclivities 
2. A reasonably long life 
3. A clean and relatively painless death

Is a life worth having no? I mean, I am not even going to get that :lol. A cow or sheep has pretty basic needs (because they have been bred to have them), in fact I know some cows (not personally lol) who live nearby who have amazing lives, they roam very freely on top of the downs near me in herds, are well looked after (I have spoken to the dude who owns them, its like a project of his). Without those cows being eventually eaten, those cows won't get that life.

This is interesting because it seems clear to me that anyone considering the topic thinking of the welfare of animals has to accept that *in this instance*, eating meat is the most moral position (from the welfare perspective of the cow). It doesn't apply to society as a whole, but this is interesting because it seems not many vegans / vegetarians are willing to admit this, which in turn seems to suggest something other than animal welfare is at the root of their veganism / vegetarianism. (perhaps disgust?).

If a vegan / vegetarian says "yes, that is optimal, but totally unmanageable and basically irrelevant in a pragmatic sense, you ****ing edgelord Bob" I have to concede they are right. But if they deflect and suggest it's better that those cows never existed then it's kinda illustrative of emotional reasoning underlying it and them not being totally intellectually honest (I have a vegetarian friend who flipped out when I _innocently_ spoke to her about this).

Regarding "nothing is inherently morally wrong", well if you are a moral nihilist then we aren't going to be able to debate that (because nihilism is like lobbing in a grenade of nondebateability into the room), but I will say that some things are inherently morally wrong. Stealing and eating babies / children is fairly high up there in terms of wrongness, which sucks because they are delicious.


* *





I only eat babies / children if I find them expired already

* *





That is the best argument against my above argument btw :lol (though it isn't that good)


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## Post_Punk_Proclivity (Oct 12, 2008)

I'd be absolutely fine continuing on as a omnivore if I could source my own meat as the indigenous do, by hunting. Obviously that's not how we get our meat though. 

I would also be lying if I said that the whole idea of factory farming didn't disturb me and play on my mind enough for me to consider eating far less meat than I do currently.


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## zonebox (Oct 22, 2012)

splendidbob said:


> Meant to reply to this and totally forgot, sry mate.
> 
> Re the middle stuff, yeh, we are in agreement, quite clearly consuming meat, as we do now isn't good, because economically its impossible to provide good conditions. That argument I am not going to disagree with.
> 
> ...


As far as I understand it, most cows are butchered after they are no longer able to provide a certain level of milk. I think the average age is around five to eight years, I'm not a farmer, I don't know for certain. After that point, it is not economically feasible to let them live to their twenty year life expectancy. Imagine if it were made a law, that cows had to be a certain age of at least twenty before being put down, for their meat and as well as they have to be showing obvious signs of suffering. The costs of meat would skyrocket I'm sure, most cows would not be producing any profit for over a decade, instead they would quite literally be eating away a profit. I imagine a lot of places would be forced to shut down. Profit usually comes before ethics, unfortunately.

Not trying to start drama, I'm just a bit nervous because I have to drive a pretty long distance and I am trying to think about other things :lol Vegetarianism is something that interests me, so this topic is handy to keep my mind focused on other things than worrying about driving on congested roads I'm not familiar with.. time to put that out of my mind again. You post wasn't even addressed to me, so sorry for stepping in on ya like this.

I could see the ethical point of eating meat, if we let them live a full life though, and only used them after their life has come toward a natural end. Even then though, the impact on the environment keeping around such delicacies would be high, assuming there were still a demand for meat at a much higher price.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

zonebox said:


> As far as I understand it, most cows are butchered after they are no longer able to provide a certain level of milk. I think the average age is around five to eight years, I'm not a farmer, I don't know for certain. After that point, it is not economically feasible to let them live to their twenty year life expectancy. Imagine if it were made a law, that cows had to be a certain age of at least twenty before being put down, for their meat and as well as they have to be showing obvious signs of suffering. The costs of meat would skyrocket I'm sure, most cows would not be producing any profit for over a decade, instead they would quite literally be eating away a profit. I imagine a lot of places would be forced to shut down. Profit usually comes before ethics, unfortunately.
> 
> Not trying to start drama, I'm just a bit nervous because I have to drive a pretty long distance and I am trying to think about other things :lol Vegetarianism is something that interests me, so this topic is handy to keep my mind focused on other things than worrying about driving on congested roads I'm not familiar with.. time to put that out of my mind again. You post wasn't even addressed to me, so sorry for stepping in on ya like this.
> 
> I could see the ethical point of eating meat, if we let them live a full life though, and only used them after their life has come toward a natural end. Even then though, the impact on the environment keeping around such delicacies would be high, assuming there were still a demand for meat at a much higher price.


Oh I agree 

I am more interested in the idea of in principle there being nothing inherently immoral about eating meat, i.e. it becomes immoral because of the way in which meat is produced.

Also interested in why some vegetarians / vegans don't seem to accept this (even if viewed as a thought experiment). For me it's basically an interesting morality question, the actual topic of veganism / vegetarianism is just a tool to get to the underlying processes of emotional reasoning (or perhaps disgust) that underpin how a lot of people seem to determine morality.

And really, its me kinda being a git here by prodding vegetarians / vegans. Not doing it to be a troll, just because the morality question I always found interesting.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> Meant to reply to this and totally forgot, sry mate.
> 
> Re the middle stuff, yeh, we are in agreement, quite clearly consuming meat, as we do now isn't good, because economically its impossible to provide good conditions. That argument I am not going to disagree with.
> 
> ...


Ignoring all economical realities that would prevent this from occurring, no, eating meat does not become the most moral position in that hypothetical with your added parameters, keeping the animals in a sanctuary of peace and pleasure does. The actual murder and consumption of the cow is separate; wouldn't simply letting the cow die naturally while still ensuring its high life standards until the final moment be more moral than forcing its death for a trivial purpose? You haven't adressed why the killing is necessary, even if the high life standards are present. Why not let the animal live out it's entire life in such a condition. And if those life standards diminish, say the animal suffers a natural decease, well we already euthanize house pets when they suffer, I don't think most vegans have a problem with that. The problem lies with the forced slaughter for no other reason than obtaining meat. Yes, even in your hypothetical, that's immoral. No vegan has a problem with killing an animal to prevent suffering. We already do this with cats and dogs.

And if you're about to tell me, "keeping all farm animals alive in a sanctuary wouldn't be economically feasible," yeah, well it's no more ridiculous than your hypothetical solution. So we're already arguing in la-la land.

I have no problem with the actual consumption of meat. It's dangerous, and I would discourage it, but knock yourself out. Unfortunately there isn't a way, currently, of obtaining meat without infringing on another sentient being. If it was possible to grow the meat artificially, I wouldn't care.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Siegfried said:


> Well no, eating meat does not become the most moral position in your hypothetical, keeping the animals in a sanctuary of peace and pleasure does. The actual murder and consumption of the cow is separate; wouldn't simply letting the cow die naturally while still ensuring its high life standards until the final moment be more moral than forcing its death for a trivial purpose? *You haven't adressed why the killing is necessary, even if the high life standards are present*. Why not let the animal live out it's entire life in such a condition. And if those life standards diminish, say the animal suffers a natural decease, well we already euthanize house pets when they suffer, I don't think most vegans have a problem with that. The problem lies with the forced slaughter for no other reason than obtaining meat. Yes, even in your hypothetical, that's immoral. No vegan has a problem with killing an animal to prevent suffering. We already do this with cats and dogs.


What kind of farmer is going to bring the cow into existence and just let it die naturally of old age? The reason why the hypothetical cow needs to be killed should be obvious, its entire existence is contingent on the fact that one day it will be killed. People don't keep cows for pets because they are ****ing massive.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> What kind of farmer is going to bring the cow into existence and just let it die naturally of old age? The reason why the hypothetical cow needs to be killed should be obvious, its entire existence is contingent on the fact that one day it will be killed. People don't keep cows for pets because they are ****ing massive.


And in what kind of world would every farmer breed cows and keep them in high standard conditions for years, and not completely collapse economically to sustain the demand for meat? You are jumping to, "oh, that's not realistic" in a completely unrealistic scenario. Can't have it both ways.

I could make up a scenario where killing you would be ethical. Does that justify "killing you" as a principle, in this world? No, that's why I find this pointless.

You presented an unrealistic scenario where killing animals for meat was "ethical." I gave you an unrealistic one to counter it.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

@Siegfried And as stated, I actually know of a farmer who keeps cows in this way, they wander about freely over a very wide area, he kills them humanely. But you are arguing those cows don't deserve a life _at all_, because, well I don't know why tbh.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> @Siegfried And as stated, I actually know of a farmer who keeps cows in this way, they wander about freely over a very wide area, he kills them humanely. But you are arguing those cows don't deserve a life _at all_, because, well I don't know why tbh.


So what, every potential life is deserving of rights according to you? That's like saying, "you are comitting murder on your hypothetical son by not reproducing."

Those cows are already here. Yes, if the children of those cows are doomed to a future of suffering, I would prevent that.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Siegfried said:


> So what, every potential life is deserving of rights according to you? That's like saying, "you are comitting murder on your hypothetical son by not reproducing."
> 
> Those cows are already here. Yes, if the children of those cows are doomed to a future of suffering, I would prevent that.


Every potential life? No, just the ones that would have quality lives which you deem don't deserve it because you "feel" it is wrong. The cows in question aren't doomed to a live of suffering, they are allowed an amazing life (for a cow) _because_ they are to be slaughtered and eaten.

*deleted farm as its too near to me lol, if you quoted can you remove pls mate? (hopefully you have seen it though).

If you can't even admit those cows deserve to live it should be pretty clear that at this point (even to you) you are arguing from emotive reasoning.

You can admit this, still be vegan and against the meat industry in general, but shift your position to a more coherent one.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> Every potential life? No, just the ones that would have quality lives which you deem don't deserve it because you "feel" it is wrong. The cows in question aren't doomed to a live of suffering, they are allowed an amazing life (for a cow) _because_ they are to be slaughtered and eaten.
> 
> If you can't even admit those cows deserve to live it should be pretty clear that at this point (even to you) you are arguing from emotive reasoning.
> 
> You can admit this, still be vegan and against the meat industry in general, but shift your position to a more coherent one.


I'm supposed to admit that abstaining from reproduction if the environment could potentially produce a happy offspring, is immoral? I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.

Something that doesn't exist can't deserve things. There is no emotion attached to that statement.


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## CastawayGaming (Feb 1, 2015)

Good luck but I'll be passing on that


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Siegfried said:


> I'm supposed to admit that abstaining from reproduction if the environment could potentially produce a happy offspring, is immoral? I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.
> 
> Something that doesn't exist can't deserve things. There is no emotion attached to that statement.


You are supposed to admit that is it _moral _to bring such a life into existence even though it will one day be killed. I am not stating that abstaining is immoral, I am saying that allowing it is moral.

The position in time at which we are evaluating the rights of the cow are when the cow exists, obviously (because otherwise there isn't a cow lol). You seem to be in agreement that at this point it is better the cow exists and has the good life then? So farms like the one I linked should be allowed to exist? Or are those farms which provide cows nice lives immoral because at some point the cow is killed.

Should we prevent all species from reproducing on account that they will one day die?

Are deaths in nature nicer, or worse than a clean death?

What about humans, is it immoral to allow humans to breed because they will one day die?


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

I know I'm getting old and very cynical - but I always see this vegan/vegetarian stuff as a passing fad.

I always think that in a few years time they'll have grown tired of it and I'll be walking past McDonalds one day and see them wolfing down a nice sausage and egg McMuffin.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Ima leave this one now @Siegfried. Like I said originally, it was just an interesting point (I thought). Not actually my intent to antagonise here. Vegans and vegetarians, carry on what you are doing, you do have the moral upper ground (because of the way animals are treated).


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

cat001 said:


> Not that I'm against veganism is or vegetarianism but if animals and ethics are the concern then I think it should be made aware that agriculture is one of the main causes of species decline, ahead of animal farming as a much larger area of land requires conversion for agriculture than it does for animals. Agriculture can also erode soil, thereby contributing to environmental degradation. Soybean plantations and palm oil (often labelled as vegetable oil among many other names) are prime examples of crops that contribute strongly to biodiversity loss and enviromental damage, these foods are also 'vegan friendly' yet contribute directly to deforestation, animal deaths and species decline. I'm not trying to put anyone off a vegan diet but it's an issue that really needs to be addressed.


A lot of corn and soy is used to feed livestock... It ends up being far more than if we were to consume those crops ourselves.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> You are supposed to admit that is it _moral _to bring such a life into existence even though it will one day be killed. I am not stating that abstaining is immoral, I am saying that allowing it is moral.
> 
> The position in time at which we are evaluating the rights of the cow are when the cow exists, obviously (because otherwise there isn't a cow lol). You seem to be in agreement that at this point it is better the cow exists and has the good life then? So farms like the one I linked should be allowed to exist? Or are those farms which provide cows nice lives immoral because at some point the cow is killed.
> 
> ...


You are entering a completely different philosophical question, one I've address previously in other threads. And it is an unpopular opinion, so I'd rather it not muddy the discussion happening here. As said, it is separate from veganism.

But no, I don't view the act of bringing a life into existence moral. You've created a burden, a need machine that gobbles at the world to gain a momentary, empty sense of pleasure and goes "ouch". You've created so much potential for pain, gambled with the potential for birth defects, just to name a few. And all for the purpose of what, mouth masturbation? Feeling good? Doesn't cut it mate.

Well the question still remains, what authority do you have to dictate at what point the cow should be killed when it's living in a completely healthy state? A natural death may be more unpleasant, but at that point, as mentioned, we have euthanasia. And if we are preemptively killing beings to prevent pain, well I think you can see where that would lead you..

No, I don't believe, in a perfect world, such farms should be allowed. Of course in the real world they are preferable to the factory farming conditions. But you have yet to demonstrate what gives you the authority to decide when a sentient being gets to live and die. If it's all about pleasure and quality of life, well, buckle up cause a lot of humans are gonna get bolt gunned.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

@Siegfried see my previous post.


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## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

After thinking about this and reading all of the comments, I'm considering just going vegetarian and only eating fish, as going full vegan might be too much effort as of now.


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## penguinbeak (Jun 5, 2017)

No. Why? Because I don't want to. It probably IS better for me and IS better for the environment + more ethical. It is also healthier for me to get out of my room once in a while and go out and enjoy the world, but I won't. Why? Because I don't want to.


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## 0589471 (Apr 21, 2012)

animals kill and eat other animals. I eat chicken, idgaf. I don't care about other people's dietary choices so please don't tell me what to eat.


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## Yu89 (Jun 10, 2018)

I will die before I become a vegan.


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## Joey2k (Jan 20, 2018)

Yu89 said:


> I will die before I become a vegan.


This is such a bizarre thing to say. Enjoying meat/animal products too much to stop eating them, or not being concerned with/believing in the downside of animal consumption, is one thing, but to be so actively opposed to NOT killing animals to eat them that you would rather die is a very strange position to take. You are saying life is literally not worth living if you can't eat meat.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Wonder what I should make. I got some cheapo veggies from the old/wilted section of the produce area last night. 

3 avocados= $1
1 cauliflower=$1
3 bell peppers (2 orange, 1 red)=$1

And I have some old stuff in the fridge- green onions, 2 big tomatoes, tofu, guacamole. Thinking of stuffed bell peppers but not sure what to put in them.


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## Ally (Jan 12, 2007)

A Toxic Butterfly said:


> animals kill and eat other animals. I eat chicken, idgaf.


Animals eat other animals out necessity, you however have a choice whether or not you want to.



> I don't care about other people's dietary choices so please don't tell me what to eat.


Lovely but what choice did the animal have? It's ok for you to choose that it gets killed so you can eat it but its not ok for a vegan to question your choice? Do you see the hypocrisy here?


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## Overdrive (Sep 19, 2015)

I wonder if human meat taste better with vegan diet, probably does.


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## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

A Toxic Butterfly said:


> animals kill and eat other animals. I eat chicken, idgaf. I don't care about other people's dietary choices so please don't tell me what to eat.


Please tell me you hunt for your own chickens before devouring them &#128521;

I hope you enjoyed that cupcake, made from animal products : )


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## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Non-offensively no to that nonsense! You want to eat carrots and salad by all means do so but I'm like a fox...remember that lady that tried to make a fox vegan? It died.


Don't force your lifestyle choices on others. I accept your choice but it isn't for me!


----------



## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

BlackHorse said:


> Please tell me you hunt for your own chickens before devouring them &#128521;
> 
> I hope you enjoyed that cupcake, made from animal products : )


You know you can be vegan without seeming like an *******, right?


----------



## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

A Toxic Butterfly said:


> *animals kill and eat other animals*. I eat chicken, idgaf. I don't care about other people's dietary choices so please don't tell me what to eat.


Good point. And we're at the top of the food chain - last time I looked.

I was watching something the other day about eating insects - and even just doing research on them. No-one knows if any of them are sentient - so where does it all end.

There are people called Jains in India - they will sweep away the area they sit before sitting down just to avoid killing any insects. Maybe the vegans should take a look at that too?


----------



## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

Raies said:


> You know you can be vegan without seeming like an *******, right?


How is that actually possible?


----------



## Ally (Jan 12, 2007)

MCHB said:


> Non-offensively no to that nonsense! You want to eat carrots and salad by all means do so but I'm like a fox...remember that lady that tried to make a fox vegan? It died.


Who said you can only eat carrots and salad? This has got to be one the biggest misconception, you can essentially eat the same just substitute something for meat. I just went vegan over a year ago and remember what meat tastes like, you can buy stuff that would fool a meat eater, I have actually fooled meat eaters.



> Don't force your lifestyle choices on others. I accept your choice but it isn't for me![


This again...

_You_ are forcing _your_ "lifestyle" on animals but you think it's ok. They did not choose to be eaten by you but you do it anyways. Why is that OK? How can you tell a vegan its not ok to force veganism when you forcing something much worse (death) on animals?


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Ally said:


> Who said you can only eat carrots and salad? This has got to be one the biggest misconception, you can essentially eat the same just substitute something for meat. I just went vegan over a year ago and remember what meat tastes like, you can buy stuff that would fool a meat eater, I have actually fooled meat eaters.
> 
> This again...
> 
> _You_ are forcing _your_ "lifestyle" on animals but you think it's ok. They did not choose to be eaten by you but you do it anyways. Why is that OK? How can you tell a vegan its not ok to force veganism when you forcing something much worse (death) on animals?


:kiss:


----------



## Ally (Jan 12, 2007)

harrison said:


> Good point. And we're at the top of the food chain - last time I looked.
> 
> I was watching something the other day about eating insects - and even just doing research on them. No-one knows if any of them are sentient - so where does it all end.
> 
> There are people called Jains in India - they will sweep away the area they sit before sitting down just to avoid killing any insects. Maybe the vegans should take a look at that too?


If you are abandoned in a jungle by all means you can use the food chain argument but we are at a point in time where we can sustain ourselves without harming animals in the process. There is no need for it.


----------



## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

harrison said:


> How is that actually possible?


What a wonderful piece of irony.


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Animals might eat other animals but they don't imprison them in factory farms by the millions and torture them their whole miserable short lives before killing them.


----------



## Ally (Jan 12, 2007)

MCHB said:


> :kiss:


One post is all it took for your argument to turn into a kissie face emoji. Sad.


----------



## Nekobasu (Apr 22, 2018)

I am sorry but I cannot be vegan. Do not get me wrong, I actually love many vegan foods and recipes, just it is too much in my culture to hunt and fish. and I eat everything I kill. I do need to put more plants in my diet tho, I think I get more protein from meats and not enough vitamins from plant foods.


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

[/quote]

How is that actually possible?[/QUOTE]

I guess all the vegans out there are *******s based on their values of what they choose to eat (despite getting to know them as a person).

People that go to McDonalds and eat burgers full of beef are allowed to do so as they please, despite the health risks involved with eating that sort of food if they wish, and can go about their own business, is how I see it, but at the end of the day, it is your own body and only you can choose what you want to put into it, whether you believe is morally or ethically correct.

I just love it when people generalise though, because that also points out faults in their own character .


----------



## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Ally said:


> If you are abandoned in a jungle by all means you can use the food chain argument but we are at a point in time where we can sustain ourselves without harming animals in the process. There is no need for it.


Okay.

So sustain yourself without hurting anything living.

How do you justify hurting one living thing over another living thing?



BlackHorse said:


> I guess all the vegans out there are *******s based on their values of what they choose to eat (despite getting to know them as a person).


Nope. I have a lot of nice vegan friends. I've actually tried vegan food with them.
You, however, act like an ***. If you want someone to behave like you'd want them to, intimidation is usually not the best way to make it happen unless you can ensure they have no other choice but to act like you'd wish.

You just give a bad image of vegans in general.



> People that go to McDonalds and eat burgers full of beef are allowed to do so as they please, despite the health risks involved with eating that sort of food if they wish, and can go about their own business, is how I see it, but at the end of the day, it is your own body and only you can choose what you want to put into it, whether you believe is morally or ethically correct.


I eat a healthy meat-based diet, and very little fast-food.
I also think I am morally on at least equal grounds as the average vegan. Prove me wrong.



> I just love it when people generalise though, because that also points out faults in their own character .


Do you see the irony?


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Ally said:


> One post is all it took for your argument to turn into a kissie face emoji. Sad.


Not gonna lie, your anger that I don't follow or believe in your chosen lifestyle is amusing! :grin2:

Don't get me wrong I'm happy for you.


----------



## Ally (Jan 12, 2007)

Raies said:


> Okay.
> 
> So sustain yourself without hurting anything living.
> 
> How do you justify hurting one living thing over another living thing?


You and me both know there is a difference between plants and animals so before you start down that path let's just admit that.

Btw, if there was a way to quite literally harm nothing vegans would be doing it. There are obviously limitations on what is possible.


----------



## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

So the thread.

- Vegans should stop being *******s.

This is always what it boils down to, when all arguments fail. But really, who is the ******* here?










Not gonna take your whining and hurt feefees all that seriously when your actions speak louder.


----------



## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Ally said:


> You and me both know there is a difference between plants and animals so before you start down that path let's just admit that.
> 
> Btw, if there was a way to quite literally harm nothing vegans would be doing it. There are obviously limitations on what is possible.


Oh? So why aren't you an insectivore then?

That way you'd hurt the least amount of living beings.

That's a diet that is completely possible. And healthy, too.

I didn't say there's no difference.
I asked how do you justify judging them by that difference; why does one deserve to die over the other in your mind?

How is that a different distinction to be made from when we separate humans from animals, then?


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)




----------



## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> So the thread.
> 
> - Vegans should stop being *******s.
> 
> ...


I am still waiting for you to disprove my arguments with anything that is not just opinions or values. (= something objective)


----------



## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> I am still waiting for you to disprove my arguments with anything that is not just opinions or values. (= something objective)


How are your arguments predicted on anything other than opinions and values?


----------



## Nekobasu (Apr 22, 2018)

To all those posting pics of factory farms, slaughter houses, etc... I used to be a supervisor on the kill floor of Smithfield Foods, ask me anything.


----------



## Ally (Jan 12, 2007)

Raies said:


> Oh? So why aren't you an insectivore then?
> 
> That way you'd hurt the least amount of living beings.
> 
> ...


I know very little about being an insectivore so I can't really comment on it.

Animals, mammals specifically, are not much different from ourselves. We know the pain and suffering they go through but people keep eating them anyways. Would you want to live in the conditions posted above? The animals don't want that any more than you or I. If it's not ok for you then why is it OK for them?

Plants don't have consciousness and ultimately it is a lesser of two evils. At the very least we can hope they don't feel pain and suffering. There was a study done that suggested they do but it was refuted for being scientifically inaccurate.


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

Siegfried said:


> So the thread.
> 
> - Vegans should stop being *******s.
> 
> This is always what it boils down to, when all arguments fail. But really, who is the ******* here?


This just sums up what disgusting immoral pigs humans are.

They think of ways to cage up animals like they are pieces of meat without feelings.

At least show a bit of empathy and make then free to roam around without being restricted without movement 24/7 like some deprived machine.

The food industry will always be like this though, and cruelty will prevail, because of what we are capable of as being "top of the food chain" in the need of peoples demands and profit.


----------



## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> How are your arguments predicted on anything other than opinions and values?


That's sort of my point; you are arguing for values and opinions that are different from mine; why would I change mine to be closer to yours, if you offer no objective reasons for me to do so.

It's not like I'm just going to go oh, but because YOUR opinion is that I'll change mine.

Thus far, you failed to provide much that you could make that argument with.


----------



## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Ally said:


> I know very little about being an insectivore so I can't really comment on it.


K. So shouldn't you study it, then? By your own standards?



> Animals, mammals specifically, are not much different from ourselves. We know the pain and suffering they go through but people keep eating them anyways. Would you want to live in the conditions posted above? The animals don't want that any more than you or I. If it's not ok for you then why is it OK for them?


No I wouldn't. And I for one support allowing decent living conditions for farmed animals. How is this related to veganism any more than just plain ethical choices?



> Plants don't have consciousness and ultimately it is a lesser of two evils. At the very least we can hope they don't feel pain and suffering. There was a study done that suggested they do but it was refuted for being scientifically inaccurate.


And why is it a lesser of two evils? If consciousness is the dividing factor, does that mean that for survival it is acceptable to kill things that are conscious on a lesser scale than ourselves?
How do you even define consciousness? The science on this is not very accurate, btw.

(And again, this would go to the argument of insects that die during the farming of plants).


----------



## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> That's sort of my point; you are arguing for values and opinions that are different from mine; why would I change mine to be closer to yours, if you offer no objective reasons for me to do so.
> 
> It's not like I'm just going to go oh, but because YOUR opinion is that I'll change mine.
> 
> Thus far, you failed to provide much that you could make that argument with.


So the only way you'll adjust your ethical structure is by having someone present objective morals? In other words, never?

This is pure sophistry, and you've just outed yourself as a fraud. I will not entertain you any further, and advice no one else to either.


----------



## Ally (Jan 12, 2007)

Raies said:


> K. So shouldn't you study it, then? By your own standards?


Yes I should. However I think some of your point is in saying less plants would be eaten if we ate bug, so it is less inticing.



> No I wouldn't. And I for one support allowing decent living conditions for farmed animals. How is this related to veganism any more than just plain ethical choices?


Ethically eating a farmed animal is somewhat of an oxymoron. If they live a full life and die of natural causes perhaps I would entertain this idea, but not likely, eitherway its never going to happen this way.



> And why is it a lesser of two evils? If consciousness is the dividing factor, does that mean that for survival it is acceptable to kill things that are conscious on a lesser scale than ourselves?
> How do you even define consciousness? The science on this is not very accurate, btw.
> 
> (And again, this would go to the argument of insects that die during the farming of plants).


We KNOW that animals go through pain and suffering, we do no know how plants feel but all signs lead to less distress than animals.


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## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Here's a picture I took about two months ago. Try telling the omnivore that left this footprint to be Vegan lol


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## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

I hate to say it...but to enforce your lifestyle choices you're going to have to euthanize a lot of predators in the natural world! Everything from Dolphins through Cougars and Grizzlys.


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## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> Here's a picture I took about two months ago. Try telling the omnivore that left this footprint to be Vegan lol


To put it bluntly, humans and animals are very different, as animals rely on hunting for their own food for survival, and are evolutionarily developed to digest meat in its raw uncooked form, whereas us humans cannot simply eat the way they do, otherwise we will get sick due to the bacteria in the meat when we ingest it.

Chicken for example, if not cooked properly we may get salmonella, so therefore it has to be cooked for safe consumption.

Leading on from this, the human digestive system isn't necessarily designed for meat, so this in itself means that we are capable of living without it, although because it is so ethically correct or stigmatised in society to eat meat, people wouldn't question eating it in the first place, and people that don't eat meat are seen as weak or a *****.

There are also studies that show statistically that people that are vegetarians alone and don't consume meat products live an average of 10 years longer than people that do eat meat, although that could vary depending from person to person.

Meat also stays in the digestive system, and clogs up not only your arteries due to the fats, but also the colon which sticks inside the inner walls, and this can lead to serious diseases and bad health.

Also back in the middle ages, everyone ate meat, and because of the extremely fatty diet and high meat consumption, people on average lived for around 30 years, and even that was considered old if you made it that far.

Lastly, does it surprise you as to why everyone adds flavour to their meat when cooked? Because most meats cooked alone have almost no flavour, so it needs to be enhanced in some way to make it more desirable.

This also applies to vegetables, and most vegetables when uncooked contain all their nutrients and flavour, but unlike meat, you can eat them raw, which is how you should eat them in the first place.

I could go on and on, but people with raw vegan diets, or vegetarian diets are less prone to most diseases than people that eat the classic western diet, which contains less than 5% nutrients in vegetables - 95% less than what you should be getting on a normal dinner plate.

This is why so many people get heart disease, strokes, scurvy, osteoperosis etc etc... Which are all due to meat.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> To put it bluntly, humans and animals are very different, as animals rely on hunting for their own food for survival, and are evolutionarily developed to digest meat in its raw uncooked form, whereas us humans cannot simply eat the way they do, otherwise we will get sick due to the bacteria in the meat when we ingest it.
> 
> Chicken for example, if not cooked properly we may get salmonella, so therefore it has to be cooked for safe consumption.
> 
> ...


It seems to me that the natural world is just as susceptible to disease as we are! I can eat raw salmon so long as it's fresh. A bear digging through a trash can for scraps or age old meat catches worms like any other flesh-ling.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

I grew up in a national park and nature is awesome! I've also worked with a number of hunters that have done so legally to confirm my above statement. You're beating a dead horse...there are people that chose to be vegan and many that don't and I fall in the don't category.


----------



## batman can (Apr 18, 2007)

I find the "it's my life choice, leave my alone" argument a little disingenuous.

I mean at the end of the day you could say that about anything. It was the Nazis "life choice" to carry out the Holocaust, why not just leave them alone? 

The real fallacy is proclaiming your right to a choice while ignoring the choice of that which you eat.


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> BlackHorse said:
> 
> 
> > To put it bluntly, humans and animals are very different, as animals rely on hunting for their own food for survival, and are evolutionarily developed to digest meat in its raw uncooked form, whereas us humans cannot simply eat the way they do, otherwise we will get sick due to the bacteria in the meat when we ingest it.
> ...


Then it would make sense in that case to not eat animals based off that very point, to further reduce the risk or attaining any diseases for optimal health.

It is very rare or almost unknown that fruits/vegetables can catch any natural diseases, but these would be so little compared to animals.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Having said the above I am not a hunter but every hunter I've talked to has had more respect for the animal they took than any vegan I've ever met.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> Then it would make sense in that case to not eat animals based off that very point, to further reduce the risk or attaining any diseases for optimal health.
> 
> It is very rare or almost unknown that fruits/vegetables can catch any natural diseases, but these would be so little compared to animals.


Dude when you personally convince a Grizzly to not eat meat and live a long and healthy life I'll give up meat lol.


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> Having said the above I am not a hunter but every hunter I've talked to has had more respect for the animal they took than any vegan I've ever met.


I guess there's a certain pride to catching your own kill, like it is displaying a plaque of an animals head on your wall as a trophy to remind yourself how much you respect animals.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> I guess there's a certain pride to catching your own kill, like it is displaying a plaque of an animals head on your wall as a trophy to remind yourself how much you respect animals.


Don't move North because the farther north you go the priority to fill a freezer is worth more than a "trophy"


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> BlackHorse said:
> 
> 
> > Then it would make sense in that case to not eat animals based off that very point, to further reduce the risk or attaining any diseases for optimal health.
> ...


Grizzlys aren't civilised I'm afraid and not susceptible to progression or betterment.

We are living in an age now though where science makes it possible that we can live with substitute or alternative foods.

As the human population only increases, people will be looking for ways to replace what we have, and even animal meat will be cloned and grown in labs for cost effectiveness and as far as eating insect protein, which is already a thing now.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> Grizzlys aren't civilised I'm afraid and not susceptible to progression or betterment.
> 
> We are living in an age now though where science makes it possible that we can live with substitute or alternative foods.
> 
> As the human population only increases, people will be looking for ways to replace what we have, and even animal meat will be cloned and grown in labs for cost effectiveness and as far as eating insect protein, which is already a thing.


 So because a species isn't civilized it should be vegan?

My challenge stands and you have yet to deliver.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Personally make a Grizzly Vegan and I'll give up meat!


Were you dropped on your head as a child?!


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> BlackHorse said:
> 
> 
> > I guess there's a certain pride to catching your own kill, like it is displaying a plaque of an animals head on your wall as a trophy to remind yourself how much you respect animals.
> ...





BlackHorse said:


> MCHB said:
> 
> 
> > BlackHorse said:
> ...


I guess when you cut yourself away from civilisation and put yourself in that position, it becomes more of a lifestyle, and it is ethically okay to kill for food, than it is to go to the grocery store and purchase something.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Alternatively you can tell me to **** off at any time and I won't be offended so long as you admit you're wrong that veganism isn't the only answer!


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> I guess when you cut yourself away from civilisation and put yourself in that position, it becomes more of a lifestyle, and it is ethically okay to kill for food, than it is to go to the grocery store and purchase something.


So you're going to make a Grizzly Vegan then?


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Or could you not handle the self-righteous mentality that dictates the lifestyle of others being shoved up your posterior? It's important given the nature of this thread you know!


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> Personally make a Grizzly Vegan and I'll give up meat!
> 
> Were you dropped on your head as a child?!


No, but you are comparing yourself to a grizzly, meaning they hunt by instinct, yet we have the choice of free will, so we DO NOT have to eat like they do... Which is the real argument here? Or maybe you see things differently than I do. >_>


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Or were you just trying to get into somebody's pants? I don't know! I posed a challenge and you failed to deliver.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> No, but you are comparing yourself to a grizzly, meaning they hunt by instinct, yet we have the choice of free will, so we DO NOT have to eat like they do... Which is the real argument here? Or maybe you see things differently than I do. >_>


You're avoiding the challenge, my friend!


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

Scroll up.


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

Get over yourself my friend.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> Scroll up.


I read it. You're avoiding the challenge I set fourth regarding your vegan beliefs and you don't have a legitimate answer! I urge you to learn basic biology and then come back to talk to me when you've successfully made a Grizzly Vegan!


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

End of discussion.


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> BlackHorse said:
> 
> 
> > No, but you are comparing yourself to a grizzly, meaning they hunt by instinct, yet we have the choice of free will, so we DO NOT have to eat like they do... Which is the real argument here? Or maybe you see things differently than I do. >_>
> ...


 what challenge would that be?


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> BlackHorse said:
> 
> 
> > Scroll up.
> ...


Yeah.. I don't know if you're a troll or not, but you could've fooled me.

But with what we can do today, you could feed a grizzly bear synthetic meat and pass it off as vegan haha not impossible.

-PS: not even vegan.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> Yeah.. I don't know if you're a troll or not, but you could've fooled me.
> 
> But with what we can do today, you could feed a grizzly bear synthetic meat and pass it off as vegan haha not impossible.
> 
> -PS: not even vegan.


I challenged you to make a Grizzly Vegan. Given that you failed to accept that challenge you lost!


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Coincidentally you also started a thead titled "***Lets all become vegan in 2018***"


And now you're denying belief in said thread of said subject line that you created. Thusly I can only come to the conclusion that you did so to gain the attention of anyone that's a vegan on this forum!


----------



## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> So the only way you'll adjust your ethical structure is by having someone present objective morals? In other words, never?
> 
> This is pure sophistry, and you've just outed yourself as a fraud. I will not entertain you any further, and advice no one else to either.


No; I expect you to be able to reason as to why I would change my approach to something with something more than just "because I say so", in a way that I can't easily refute.

But I understand that you are more happy pouncing around feeling morally superior and taking that to pridefully stick it to the ones below.


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> BlackHorse said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah.. I don't know if you're a troll or not, but you could've fooled me.
> ...


Is that the best you've got?

Magically make a grizzly appear and I will do my best.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Dude you're backpedalling so hard it's glorious!


Whenever I backpedal all I achieve is "clickclickclickclick!"


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> Dude you're backpedalling so hard it's glorious!
> 
> Whenever I backpedal all I achieve is "clickclickclickclick!"


And the award goes to... MCHB for keyboard warrior. *salutes*


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> And the award goes to... MCHB for keyboard warrior. *salutes*


I'm still waiting for results RE: the Grizzly Vegan Project lol


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> Coincidentally you also started a thead titled "***Lets all become vegan in 2018***"
> 
> And now you're denying belief in said thread of said subject line that you created. Thusly I can only come to the conclusion that you did so to gain the attention of anyone that's a vegan on this forum!


I'm not denying belief in my own thread and there have been many good points put forward from both sides, but as this thread has progressed , it has made me realise how much effort there is, as well as budget to achieve such a diet.

Doesn't mean I am not going off the idea, but for now i'm putting it on hold.


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> I'm not denying belief in my own thread ad there have been many good points pit forward from both sides, but as this thread has progressed , it has made me realise how much effort there is, as well as budget to achieve such a diet.
> 
> Doesn't mean I am not going off the idea, but for now i'm putting it on hold.


Become the change you want to see; if you don't want to eat meat stop eating it! Just don't expect others to blindly follow in your path. :smile2:


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> BlackHorse said:
> 
> 
> > And the award goes to... MCHB for keyboard warrior. *salutes*
> ...


Haha you Canadians obsessed with grizzly bears.. Should we talk about maple syrup next?


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> Haha you Canadians obsessed with grizzly bears.. Should we talk about maple syrup next?


I speak for the trees! :grin2:


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> BlackHorse said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not denying belief in my own thread ad there have been many good points pit forward from both sides, but as this thread has progressed , it has made me realise how much effort there is, as well as budget to achieve such a diet.
> ...


I wasn't forcing anyone or putting a gun to their head, derp.


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

Thanks for contributing to the thread tho... To a fellow non vegan lulz


----------



## Nekobasu (Apr 22, 2018)

Do not make fun of Canadians, they are my neighbors. I live a stone's throw from the Canadian border. Just sayin


----------



## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

BlackHorse said:


> Thanks for contributing to the thread tho... To a fellow non vegan lulz


Dude you're awesome and even though we have conflicting beliefs I'd totally hang out with you! :grin2:


----------



## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

MCHB said:


> Dude you're awesome and even though we have conflicting beliefs I'd totally hang out with you! :grin2:


D'aww... geez, lets go catch a moose! jks.


----------



## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

I don't want to fuel the fire but, I really wanted to make a comment on something about bears being the state animal of California (U.S.), that they range from the Rocky Mountains and upwards (not just in Canada) but that the debate of food plus ethics is a very long existing debate. So.. bears. 
I'm not sure why we have canines plus plant teeth or why we prefer to not have heads on the animals we eat (chicken heads, for ex.) But are ok with the rest of the body or why it's generally uncomfortable to see _grisly_ animal slaughter but it's easier to see Bambi chopped into pieces and less fur. I think that's why they made kosher laws, to forgive themselves for animal slaughter, etc, etc.

Or probably why they say thank you Jesus for this food that died on it's way here.. some Buddhists go a step further to say that killing plants is still a sin but not as bad. Assigning universal sin is not easy. Making an individual choice is, otherwise it'd be a societal choice. With that said, I can respect both points of views and eat my animal by-product cake too.


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## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

coeur_brise said:


> I don't want to fuel the fire but, I really wanted to make a comment on something about bears being the state animal of California (U.S.), that they range from the Rocky Mountains and upwards (not just in Canada) but that the debate of food plus ethics is a very long existing debate. So.. bears.
> I'm not sure why we have canines plus plant teeth or why we prefer to not have heads on the animals we eat (chicken heads, for ex.) But are ok with the rest of the body or why it's generally uncomfortable to see _grisly_ animal slaughter but it's easier to see Bambi chopped into pieces and less fur. I think that's why they made kosher laws, to forgive themselves for animal slaughter, etc, etc.
> 
> Or probably why they say thank you Jesus for this food that died on it's way here.. some Buddhists go a step further to say that killing plants is still a sin but not as bad. Assigning universal sin is not easy. Making an individual choice is, otherwise it'd be a societal choice. With that said, I can respect both points of views and eat my animal by-product cake too.


To some people and religious beliefs, it is said that every living thing is consciousness , so therefore plants are considered a living thing in its own right, and plucking the vegetable or fruit from its root is essentially the same as slaughtering or killing an animal, but not as bad.

I guess with the head not being on the animal is a sign of respect and ethically more acceptable to not see a lifeless face of the animal, and eyes which show emotion.

I would much rather not even see part of the animal in its form, but more of a piece of meat that's been turned into cuts or strips so I'm not reminded of the animal as much.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> No; I expect you to be able to reason as to why I would change my approach to something with something more than just "because I say so", in a way that I can't easily refute.
> 
> But I understand that you are more happy pouncing around feeling morally superior and taking that to pridefully stick it to the ones below.


No, you are insufferable. And it's apparent why you stopped responding. You shift the parameters of the discussion constantly, asking me to objectively prove my ethical position. It is laughable. You are not an honest debater. And your previous post is a testament to your lack of intellect and/or integrity; it's all there, word for word. And now you're trying to brush it aside. Just stop.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> No, you are insufferable.* And it's apparent why you stopped responding*. You shift the parameters of the discussion constantly, asking me to objectively prove my ethical position. It is laughable. You are not an honest debater. And your previous post is a testament to your lack of intellect and/or integrity; it's all there, word for word. And now you're trying to brush it aside. Just stop.


Checking back I either did not get a notification on a response, or didn't notice it. I guess that can be apparent....

I never asked you to objectively prove your ethical positioning; I pointed out that your ethical positioning (since you made an ethical argument) is not superior than anyone elses, objectively; why would they change theirs if you don't provide anything objective to motivate them. It's lovely how YOU **** my words at this 

You calling others whatever, does not prove your point, btw.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> Checking back I either did not get a notification on a response, or didn't notice it. I guess that can be apparent....
> 
> I never asked you to objectively prove your ethical positioning; I pointed out that your ethical positioning (since you made an ethical argument) is not superior than anyone elses, objectively; why would they change theirs if you don't provide anything objective to motivate them. It's lovely how YOU **** my words at this
> 
> You calling others whatever, does not prove your point, btw.


No, you didn't do that. You asked why you would change your opinion if no objective reasons were offered. Quote:



> That's sort of my point; you are arguing for values and opinions that are different from mine; why would I change mine to be closer to yours, if you offer no objective reasons for me to do so.


"Why would I change my opinion" does not translate to "your ethics aren't objectively morally superior," a point equally vapid nonetheless, as it serves no purpose but to dismiss a discussion about ethics through moral nihilism, something that could be done to any ethical position rendering the whole point of ethics useless.

And I've made the argument, go back through the pages.

What's kind of funny is that you're complaining about vegans acting morally superior, and calling them *******s for it. That is in itself taking a hierarchical moral position. Calling someone an ******* implies the target change their behavior to suit your moral sensibilities. Shouldn't you practice what you preach and stop acting morally superior when there isn't any objective quality about that person making them such?

You are calling vegans *******s, because I guess they act mean in their activism, and some vegans call you an ******* for slaughtering animals and imposing needless suffering. You can decide for yourself which is worse, and if it's the latter I will continue acting morally superior to you.

No there aren't objective morals. What's your point? Throw out the whole legal system? We are as a society acting morally superior when we put murderers in jail. Or when someone bumps into you rudly, and you call them a ****. Explain to me how that is wrong, and why you are bringing this up to begin with?


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Siegfried said:


> No, you didn't do that. You asked why you would change your opinion if no objective reasons were offered. Quote:
> 
> "Why would I change my opinion" does not translate to "your ethics aren't objectively morally superior," a point equally vapid nonetheless, as it serves no purpose but to dismiss a discussion about ethics through moral nihilism, something that could be done to any ethical position rendering the whole point of ethics useless.
> 
> ...


At what point did I say that the objective reason for me(or anyone) to change my(their) mind, needed to be ethical..?
I think I've already explained my ethical standpoints well enough not to need go through them here, to sum it up, I guess: Imo animals should be treated well, however, ethical reasoning is not enough to support veganism on it's own. As I already said; Prove me wrong. (And this is where the subjectivity of values comes, I guess you fail to understand what it means..? Neither standpoint is necessarily correct or incorrect. A person is free to choose theirs. Hence; arguing over which one of the two is better is simply idiotic)

I'm not calling vegans anything.
I'm calling specific people who happen to be vegans things. Because they act like it. Activism does not mean you need to intimidate people or get in their faces, call them names or anything of the kind. You can, in-fact, be well-behaved, and chances are the message will be more well-received.

I do not really care whether or not anyone changes their behavior due to me; I merely expressed my view on something for the heck of it. It does not tickle my buttcheeks in any way if they continue being *******s; but judging by the thread name, it does matter to them, and hence it would be more beneficial for THEM not to act like *******s. (And you, I guess?)



> No there aren't objective morals. What's your point? Throw out the whole legal system? We are as a society acting morally superior when we put murderers in jail. Or when someone bumps into you rudly, and you call them a ****. Explain to me how that is wrong, and why you are bringing this up to begin with?


I don't think we need to get into societal philosophy, do we?

Okay: laws exist to ensure the safety of humans and the function of a society; not to specifically limit people for the sake of limiting them. It's, in most cases, less about values as it is about 'what works'.

cba to go deeper into it as I don't see laws etc very relevant in a discussion about choice, at least in this context.


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## Omni-slash (Feb 10, 2016)

Raies said:


> At what point did I say that the objective reason for me(or anyone) to change my(their) mind, needed to be ethical..?


Ehhh, at what point did I say you said that? I quoted you word for word. I'm not gonna do it again so stand for what you said.



> I think I've already explained my ethical standpoints well enough not to need go through them here, to sum it up, I guess: Imo animals should be treated well, however, ethical reasoning is not enough to support veganism on it's own. As I already said; Prove me wrong. (And this is where the subjectivity of values comes, I guess you fail to understand what it means..? Neither standpoint is necessarily correct or incorrect. A person is free to choose theirs. Hence; arguing over which one of the two is better is simply idiotic)


No, you are a dishonest debater. Where have I claimed to have the objectively superior point of view? I made it clear, even in the post you are quoting for ****s sake, that ethics are subjective and that I'm supporting my subjective opinion. Stop constructing these ghosts to argue against.

And I've made the argument to extend your ethics to sentient animals with fully functioning nervous systems, go back and look, at which point you retreat to moral nihilism. This has nothing to do with objective morals, this has to do with my subjective morals deeming you a douchebag. And if you operate on similar empathy, you would feel the same.



> I'm not calling vegans anything.
> I'm calling specific people who happen to be vegans things. Because they act like it. Activism does not mean you need to intimidate people or get in their faces, call them names or anything of the kind. You can, in-fact, be well-behaved, and chances are the message will be more well-received.


Oh, are these internet words getting in your face? Grow up. I do not wish to convince people similar to you.



> I do not really care whether or not anyone changes their behavior due to me; I merely expressed my view on something for the heck of it. It does not tickle my buttcheeks in any way if they continue being *******s; but judging by the thread name, it does matter to them, and hence it would be more beneficial for THEM not to act like *******s. (And you, I guess?)


Mhm, I'm sure that's your intention. Thanks for the advice, was news to me.



> I don't think we need to get into societal philosophy, do we?
> 
> Okay: laws exist to ensure the safety of humans and the function of a society; not to specifically limit people for the sake of limiting them. It's, in most cases, less about values as it is about 'what works'.
> 
> cba to go deeper into it as I don't see laws etc very relevant in a discussion about choice, at least in this context.


Huh? No, laws are predicated on the subjective value that humans deserve safety in the first place...

I mean if you couldn't see the point in what I wrote I simply don't have the patience to explain it to you.


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## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

cat001 said:


> Not that I'm against veganism is or vegetarianism but if animals and ethics are the concern then I think it should be made aware that agriculture is one of the main causes of species decline, ahead of animal farming as a much larger area of land requires conversion for agriculture than it does for animals. Agriculture can also erode soil, thereby contributing to environmental degradation. Soybean plantations and palm oil (often labelled as vegetable oil among many other names) are prime examples of crops that contribute strongly to biodiversity loss and enviromental damage, these foods are also 'vegan friendly' yet contribute directly to deforestation, animal deaths and species decline. I'm not trying to put anyone off a vegan diet but it's an issue that really needs to be addressed.


This is particularly why the Buddhist diet works so well, because plants and animals are valued equally as living things, and even plants have limits when it comes to conservation, because eating these is essentially killing the base of where it started, therefore preventing any more to flourish.

Agriculturally this is also just as releveant, but there can be exclusions, or different rules, varying from culture to culture which allow consumption of some meats and vegtables, whereas others completely banish the idea of eating any meats or most plants for that matter, however, fruit is the main source of food, and essentially, this is the best diet that a vegan could have.


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## shyraclifford (Jun 24, 2018)

humans are animals, also. i have always been a vegetarian if seafood, vegetables and fruits qualify


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## BlackHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

shyraclifford said:


> humans are animals, also. i have always been a vegetarian if seafood, vegetables and fruits qualify


This is primarily why some tribes of different cultures allow consumption of humans. e.g. long pigs, because they taste similar to other animals e.g., (which I do not condone of the slightest), but what they do consider morally ethical in their culture has a lot to do with their core beliefs, (which would be seen as barbaric or grotesque because of the sheer nature of it), compared to our western culture, and would be opposed to idea of veganism based off the very concept of what it stands for, as well as vegetarian diets for that matter.

Since I do condone in eating seafood/sea animals though, and not so much animal meat, I regard it as a step up from veganism, (as eating vegetables and fruits alone I'd find difficult to stick with), and apart from that, has many health benefits, such as Omega 3's from fish, seaweed etc.

That does not mean to say though, I am against any kind of religion or any of their food practices, out of respect, as every culture (including ethnicity) and the food they eat, that practices religion of any kind, take this into consideration to some degree, and what may be seen as ethical to one culture, may not be seen in the same light as a different culture, and so on.


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## LUCH0 (Aug 25, 2017)

shyraclifford said:


> humans are animals, also. i have always been a vegetarian if seafood, vegetables and fruits qualify


I believe you would be considered a pescetarian.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)




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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

No way, I need cow, if they have a good life & a quick death thats the best any of us can hope for.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Finally figured out what OP's original account was.



shyraclifford said:


> humans are animals, also. i have always been a vegetarian if seafood, vegetables and fruits qualify


Pescetarian.


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## JerryAndSports (Jul 13, 2018)

I think having a balanced diet of healthy meats, fish, and vegetables is still the best. Just choosing one way to access all your minerals vitamins and Protein is just too much of a hassle.


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## NotFullyHere (Apr 29, 2018)

Treating your diet like a popularity contest or some kind of fashion is dangerous, IMHO. Just because everyone else is eating a certain way, doesn't mean it is the right way for you as an individual. Some of the foods you're eating right now could be the main contributors to your mental health problems. Oh yes, food is not only good or bad for your physical health but for your mental health, as well.

Good luck finding the right diet for you!


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## Jax1010 (Jul 27, 2018)

Let's not and come to terms that a trend isn't always healthy anemia is to common plus the only vegans I know are vegans who chose to spare an animals life outa compassion if your sacrificing meat n dairy to benefit others n not yourself than your a true vegan rember you have your teeth and digestive for a reason


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## naes (Nov 1, 2013)

I was vegan for like a year... I think that's long enough for one lifetime.


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## batman can (Apr 18, 2007)

naes said:


> I was vegan for like a year... I think that's long enough for one lifetime.


I think you did it wrong. I eat the same as I ever did I just substitute real meat for a vegan version. Most of them taste exactly the same. Maybe you dont have good options where you live?

Meat and dairy are archaic, veganism is gaining momentum more and more everyday. The only hope the meat industry has is "lab grown" meat. The current way of doing things will cease to exist at some point.


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## johu78 (Jan 16, 2018)

Sorry dude, but i can not do it right now. May be next time.


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## batman can (Apr 18, 2007)

OMG so tough to eat vegan...really missing out, lol. Not!










The wing things were bbq'd, taste 99% like meat and nothing had to die or suffer for it.


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## Suchness (Aug 13, 2011)

Its easy when you believe in what youre doing.


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## Jolese (Jan 4, 2005)

batman can said:


> OMG so tough to eat vegan...really missing out, lol. Not!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are those wing things?


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

batman can said:


> OMG so tough to eat vegan...really missing out, lol. Not!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't believe you at all about the taste. You are vegan anyway, so how would you know what meat tastes like. I get sick of vegans saying it tastes the same and then you bite into it and it's horrible. I think you would be better off from a marketing point of view if you were honest. "It tastes like ****, a dog and a cat would refuse to eat it, but it slightly resembles meat."


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## batman can (Apr 18, 2007)

Chevy396 said:


> I don't believe you at all about the taste. You are vegan anyway, so how would you know what meat tastes like. I get sick of vegans saying it tastes the same and then you bite into it and it's horrible. I think you would be better off from a marketing point of view if you were honest. "It tastes like ****, a dog and a cat would refuse to eat it, but it slightly resembles meat."


I've been vegan not even a year, I know full well what meat tastes like as well as texture and whatever. Those wings nailed the texture. The flavour was added by me and they were bbq'd. The bbq sauce is just a regular grocery store brand, most of them seem to be vegan, and I added some spices myself.

Some vegan meat sucks there is no doubt but some tastes exactly the same. It's fun experimenting with different brands seeing who got what right.

Bonus is not having to worry about e-coli and salmonella, constantly washing everything you touch, obessing over hitting 165C, and all that headache. What a pain in the ***.



Jolese said:


> What are those wing things?


Their products are here.

http://happyveggieworld.com/our-products/


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## twitchy666 (Apr 21, 2013)

*Boil?*

Main part of my diet is virgin olive oil

meat
fish
tofu
veg

anything needs frying


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

batman can said:


> I've been vegan not even a year, I know full well what meat tastes like as well as texture and whatever. Those wings nailed the texture. The flavour was added by me and they were bbq'd. The bbq sauce is just a regular grocery store brand, most of them seem to be vegan, and I added some spices myself.
> 
> Some vegan meat sucks there is no doubt but some tastes exactly the same. It's fun experimenting with different brands seeing who got what right.
> 
> ...


Salmonella is very common in vegetables. Lettuce for instance. Especially if it's organic, and then there are chemicals on it if it's not organic. I hope you still wash everything.

I am waiting to become vegan until we have replicators. Shouldn't be too much longer, we already have computer phones.


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## batman can (Apr 18, 2007)

Chevy396 said:


> Salmonella is very common in vegetables. Lettuce for instance. Especially if it's organic, and then there are chemicals on it if it's not organic. I hope you still wash everything.
> 
> I am waiting to become vegan until we have replicators. Shouldn't be too much longer, we already have computer phones.


I do wash everything but not as obsessively as you have to do with meat. Chicken for instance as soon as you handle it you have to start washing f**king everything that comes in contact with it.


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## Nelar (Aug 20, 2018)

Chevy396 said:


> I don't believe you at all about the taste. You are vegan anyway, so how would you know what meat tastes like. I get sick of vegans saying it tastes the same and then you bite into it and it's horrible. I think you would be better off from a marketing point of view if you were honest. "It tastes like ****, a dog and a cat would refuse to eat it, but it slightly resembles meat."


No offense but that's kind of ignorant. Most vegans didn't start vegan so they know the taste and texture.

I work in NYC and I have many vegan options and oh man they are soooo delicious. I can't even say being vegan is hard with all the delicious options out there.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Nelar (Aug 20, 2018)

batman can said:


> OMG so tough to eat vegan...really missing out, lol. Not!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Omg I've been craving something food like a dumb stick. What were the "bones"? Wooden sticks I assume?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

Nelar said:


> No offense but that's kind of ignorant. Most vegans didn't start vegan so they know the taste and texture.
> 
> I work in NYC and I have many vegan options and oh man they are soooo delicious. I can't even say being vegan is hard with all the delicious options out there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I eat a lot of vegan food too, last weekend I ate nothing but homemade chips and salsa. I just don't like the fake meat and the way it claims to taste the same. Maybe I just have really sophisticated taste buds or something.


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## batman can (Apr 18, 2007)

Nelar said:


> Omg I've been craving something food like a dumb stick. What were the "bones"? Wooden sticks I assume?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Yep, wooden sticks.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Fake fried chicken is pretty good. Fake cheese tastes really weird. I had vegan cheesecake one time and it was not good at all.


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## Suchness (Aug 13, 2011)

I had fake cheese on pizza, it was alright.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

komorikun said:


> Fake fried chicken is pretty good. Fake cheese tastes really weird. I had vegan cheesecake one time and it was not good at all.


 The fried nature of fried chicken is what makes it bad for you. Pretty much anything that is deep fried is unhealthy. Delicious but unhealthy.

I had almost forgotten cheesecake exists. I don't miss most junk foods but there are a few I'd give anything to be able to eat again. Cheesecake is one of them.


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## Jolese (Jan 4, 2005)

batman can said:


> Their products are here.
> 
> http://happyveggieworld.com/our-products/


I want to be a happy veggie person living in a happy veggie world.

Where can I buy it?


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

WillYouStopDave said:


> The fried nature of fried chicken is what makes it bad for you. Pretty much anything that is deep fried is unhealthy. Delicious but unhealthy.
> 
> I had almost forgotten cheesecake exists. I don't miss most junk foods but there are a few I'd give anything to be able to eat again. Cheesecake is one of them.


There is something I've been trying to remember to tell you since I saw your comment about cutting sour cream out of your diet... You can replace sour cream with plain Greek yogurt and it tastes almost identical.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

Chevy396 said:


> There is something I've been trying to remember to tell you since I saw your comment about cutting sour cream out of your diet... You can replace sour cream with plain Greek yogurt and it tastes almost identical.


 I thought of that but heat kills bacteria. And thus, heat kills probiotics. I mainly eat greek yogurt for the protein but you're paying for the probiotics too so you might as well preserve them until they reach their intended destination.


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

mmmm naw cows taste good, I have pet cows I know them phuckers are intelligent to a degree and I couldn't k'ill the ones I know, but I must submit to my primitive instincts :cry


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## Overdrive (Sep 19, 2015)

An SJW, a Vegan, and a Feminist walked into a bar. How do I know? *
*
*
*
*They Told Everyone*


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## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Overdrive said:


> An SJW, a Vegan, and a Feminist walked into a bar. How do I know?
> 
> *They Told Everyone*


:haha


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

Overdrive said:


> An SJW, a Vegan, and a Feminist walked into a bar. How do I know? *
> *
> *
> *
> *They Told Everyone*


a "normal" person walks into a bar and sits next to them. doesn't tell people they support social injustice. doesn't mention how they abuse animals. doesn't say anything about how they've been exploiting women.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Overdrive said:


> An SJW, a Vegan, and a Feminist walked into a bar. How do I know? *
> *
> *
> *
> *They Told Everyone*


:lol:lol:lol


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## A River In Norway (Oct 19, 2017)

I am vegetarian but most of my meals are vegan. My physical health has improved 10 fold, but sadly I don't feel any mentally healthier.  I mean, other than I know I am not eating animals. That makes me feel better haha. I wish it had more mental effects.

The main reason I commented is IDK why people who eat meat make fun of people who don't. It's a very healthy lifestyle and helps animals and the planet, and people like to talk about it because they are proud of it. People like to talk about things they are into, such as gamers who talk about video games. Plus it's an uncommon diet and people like to find others to relate to. I don't understand the hate...


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## A River In Norway (Oct 19, 2017)

MCHB said:


> Non-offensively no to that nonsense! You want to eat carrots and salad by all means do so but I'm like a fox...remember that lady that tried to make a fox vegan? It died.
> 
> Don't force your lifestyle choices on others. I accept your choice but it isn't for me!


I am a vegetarian but I never eat salad... I wish people understood that these words simply mean no meat (+ no dairy for vegan).
I try to eat as healthy as I can but I also eat tons of pizzas, chinese take out, french fries, onion rings, burgers (soy or mushroom), cakes, chocolate, noodles. etc... 
Also a fox is an obligate carnivore and cannot survive on anything other than meat, that person was deluded and not a real vegan as she abused an animal.


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## Nekobasu (Apr 22, 2018)

well I am an omnivore, basically like I was evolved to be. I hunt deer, eat beef cows, etc. I eat plenty of plants as well.. oh btw one time my cat brought me a dead rabbit as a gift, I cooked it and shared it with her. Also same thing when she brought me a huge dead snake. Had shake and bake snake that night. Vegans need to quit messing with us omnivores, before we start eating vegans.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

A River In Norway said:


> I am a vegetarian but *I never eat salad.*.. I wish people understood that these words simply mean no meat (+ no dairy for vegan).
> I try to eat as healthy as I can but I also eat tons of pizzas, chinese take out, french fries, onion rings, burgers (soy or mushroom), cakes, chocolate, noodles. etc...
> Also a fox is an obligate carnivore and cannot survive on anything other than meat, that person was deluded and not a real vegan as she abused an animal.


Yeah, I don't eat salads all that much either. My mainstays are rice, beans, curry, peanut butter, and bread. Eat tofu, pasta, and cheese fairly often too.


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

A River In Norway said:


> I am vegetarian but most of my meals are vegan. My physical health has improved 10 fold, but sadly I don't feel any mentally healthier.  I mean, other than I know I am not eating animals. That makes me feel better haha. I wish it had more mental effects.
> 
> The main reason I commented is IDK why people who eat meat make fun of people who don't. It's a very healthy lifestyle and helps animals and the planet, and people like to talk about it because they are proud of it. People like to talk about things they are into, such as gamers who talk about video games. Plus it's an uncommon diet and people like to find others to relate to. I don't understand the hate...


yeah i'm not mentally much better and i'm not much healthier really. but hurting less animals and doing less environmental harm is great. i'm proud of fellow vegetarians, and we shouldn't have to stop talking about it just because other people don't want to look at the harm they do to animals.


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