# please.. doctors are not gods. they are just egotistical..



## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

before going into hospitals, please do your research..

If you don't think something "makes sense".. then question it.. because it probably doesn't.

I just met a very cool patient yesterday.. Great guy. He had a problem with "fluid" on the stomach due to liver infection. No problem. The fluid needed to be taken out. the procedure is known as a paracentesis.


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

The poor guy was so desperate/uncomfortable that he trusted an M.D. whom he cannot remember to do this procedure.

He was in his hospital bed when the physician walked him. Looked very nervous, yet assured him he could do the procedure - no problem.

the patient felt uncomfortable, but out of desperation, he allowed the MD. to proceed.

The MD came back into the room with a small pamphlet from the procedure tray, *"reading up"* on* how to perform a paracentesis.*

The MD began lining several pieces of equipment near the pt., knocking things over. the nurses asked if he needed help? "No, i'm fine"..

the MD proceeded working on the patient without a betadine prep. He used no ultrasound guidance to locate where he should puncture the patient.

He then used lidocaine and numbed the outer layers of the abdomen, but not the inner layers. Thus, the patient was in pain during the procedure.


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

after he had only acquired about 100 ml of fluid? the physician knocked over the bottle, ran out of the room, and had the nurses patch the patient up.

You're supposed to hold pressure on the abdomen until bleeding stops. No one did.

the next day, when i saw the patient in the bed? He was laying literally in blood and clear liquid - where the rest of the fluid from his abdomen just oozed out over night.. I cleaned him, took good care of him, had his sheets replaced.. etc.

Long story short? folks please THINK? the moment you see a person walking into your room with a pamphlet on how to work on you - please do not let him work on you?


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## jeanny (Apr 17, 2014)

They wanted to cut off my ear, because of the little tick when I was 5. They're crazy.


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## lostinlife (Jun 2, 2010)

Amen. Don't let yourself get hypnotized by "white coat syndrome." Think about the thousands of illnesses a human being can have and it's logically impossible for every doctor to be an expert on every condition. That's why there are general doctors and then there are specialists. Even for a common condition like diabetes, you'll get medical professionals that can't give sound advice on how to control that on a daily basis. Do your own research and vet every doctor whenever possible. And not even the doctor, research the staff (the office). A good doctor surrounds him/her self with good staff. I won't go to any doctor that has a poor staff because when you need medical paperwork or insurance clearance, it's never the doctor that you have to deal with.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

thinkstoomuch101 said:


> before going into hospitals, please do your research..


This is much easier said than done. Unfortunately while patients can easily tell that a doc is nice and shows empathy, it can far more difficult, if not impossible to tell whether a doc is a good clinician or not, and often they ascribe the former onto the latter qualities. When someone shows outright incompetence that is easy to judge, as in the case you're talking about (what an idiot not to use ultrasound, they could have perfed the bowl...), but beyond that things get murkier - I've heard plenty of surgeons griping about how their patients had no appreciation for how good of a job they've done with a technically challenging surgery, and judged the surgeon's ability on their scars. A patient likely won't appreciate when a smart doc dodges a bullet for them - like catching that two medications can interact in a nasty way when they never knew of that interaction in the first place, or when a particular doc catches something else that others likely would have missed, that the patient doesn't have context to understand.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, unfortunately, it can be very hard to tell who is and isn't a good doc without having a pretty substantial understanding of medicine yourself. Also, there are egotistical docs, but it's a mistake to take a prejudiced attitude and ascribe a quality on a whole group is invariably not a sign of good judgement, this case included.


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## laysiaj (Jun 28, 2014)

It is extremely difficult to decide whether or not to trust a doctor. 
I have this thing that may or may not need brain surgery.
I've talked to my primary, the urgent care physician, two neurologists, and a neurosurgeon. Had they all said yes or no to the surgery, it would make my decision much easier. Sadly, that has not been the case. 
I've decided to wait on surgery.


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

Yeah..but a guy walks in reading a pamphlet?


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

How old was he?


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## beli mawr (Dec 18, 2013)

I don't trust them myself, never really did. However, the time where I had a potentially fatal infection as the result of a drug, and the doctor played it off as simple "inflammation" really did it for me.


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

Sacrieur said:


> How old was he?


according to the patient, late 40's.

doctors basically have a salary.. but when they do a* special procedure *which actually should go to an* interventionalist* (minor surgery doctor), they get paid the extra "specialists" fee for doing their job.

this procedure fee usually ranges from $5,000 to $10,000..

the physician basically low-balled the guy who's paid to do these procedures on a daily basis.. so that he could get that extra cash - billed to the patient of course.

even if the paracentesis was a success or not...

this practice happens daily in this hospital.

what's sad, the patient doesn't even remember who did it..:blank


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

thinkstoomuch101 said:


> according to the patient, late 40's.
> 
> doctors basically have a salary.. but when they do a* special procedure *which actually should go to an* interventionalist* (minor surgery doctor), they get paid the extra "specialists" fee for doing their job.
> 
> ...


I'm sure the doctor isn't getting all of that. A minor invasive surgery for $5k?

No way.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

This is a message ive been preaching for quite some time especially on this board. It doesn't inspire confidence when a doctor prescribes a medication that he just read a mere couple paragraphs in a CPS book moments ago right before your eyes.

The average patient is not educated enough to realize the sheer number of mistakes and incompetence coming from the mythical beings in white lab coats who they put their blind trust in. 

I always see the western medicine patient/doctor relationship like this example. I compare it to a business relationship, that say you invest your life savings into opening a business and you have a business partner, Dr Dumbass. You give Dr Dumbass the job of making all the decisions for your business (representing your health). He/she stands to get all the status for any success and all the rewards while you assume all the risk and stand to face all the consequences of Dr Dumbasses decisions.

If the business goes under(your state of health), you stand to lose everything while Dr Dumbass stands to lose nothing, not even admittance of guilt if he/she screws up. I mean what other area of your life would you EVER enter into a business relationship/partnership like this?

Patients also are under the false assumption that in order for Dr Dumbass to arrive at whatever medication and dose he/she prescribed you, that Dr Dumbass had to go through like three chalkboards worth of complex calculations in order to get you that med and that dose when it reality its more like he picked a medication written on a crumpled piece of paper out of a hat. As for the dose it is what he gives everyone starting on that med regardless of your specific situation.

As if it takes 10 years of medical school to prescribe 20 mg of Paxil. Really the real issue and reason Dr Dumbass is the gatekeeper to the pharmacy is liability. The insurance companies have to have some standard to go by in order to know what to base their rates off of.

Often doctors don't know anything more than what the drug rep told them about the medication he's prescribing you. And of course Dr Dumbass can't possibly be smart enough to see a conflict of interest in being educated on a product solely by the person selling the product. Which is pretty sad.


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## beli mawr (Dec 18, 2013)

Noca said:


> ...


You hit every nail square on the head.


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## DickTracy (Jul 19, 2014)

Can't the guys sue? and arent doctors supposed to be supervised or something? was the guy even qualified to do the procedure?


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## StrongerthanYesterday (Sep 26, 2013)

I read somewhere that the month of July is the worst month for mistakes at teaching hospitals in the U.S. because of the influx of new residents/interns.


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## goosebump (Jan 12, 2014)

Yeah, I don't trust doctors either, knowing the curriculum they went through and how much the pharmaceutical companies have a grasp over them through sponsoring


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

beli mawr said:


> You hit every nail square on the head.


+2

:yes

_(couldn't stop laughing @ "Dr. Dumba**)...:lol :lol

_


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Oh with regards to my statement, that was based on almost 9 years as a chronic patient seeing MANY many more doctors than any normal person would ever see in that time period, or even their life. This was based on mostly outpatient doctors in outpatient settings, who in this healthcare system are their own bosses and have little to zero accountability. This also applied to the vast majority of those doctors that I saw, the ones who were competent, intelligent, and actually possessed adequate problem solving skills were in the minority.

Surgeons were one group of doctors I seemed to have no problem with, but how many surgeries can one possibly have? I only had 4 so maybe I just got lucky. I was aware of the surgeons who will do surgeries solely for the money, who my mother liked to refer to as "butchers", and was advised to stay away from specific doctors as my mother works in the hospital system here and knows most of the doctors here.

I don't have a whole lot of criticism regarding acute care in this healthcare system, but any care regarding chronic conditions, forget it. It is absolute garbage, and no wonder why no one gets better and this system is being bankrupt.

Chronic care in most western medicine is based on short term solutions for long term problems, sort of like sticking a piece of chewing gum in a crack in a hydro electric dam and thinking you have done enough. While short term bandaid fixes are no doubt cheaper initially than making an actual investment into a patient's state of health and wellbeing, long term they will far exceed the cost of proper rehabilitation.

Give this example of Dr Dumbass. Dr Dumbass starts his own practice and sees patient 001. Instead of putting forth any real effort such problem solving, additional research, or any detective work whatsoever of putting clues together to determine the cause of patient 001's health problems, if even Dr Dumbass bothers to find the source of them, Dr Dumbass will start patient 001 on medications that treat whatever symptoms patient 001 is experiencing. 

Well of course this may appear to work, it only covers up the problem and does not address the underlying issue. Patient 001 will usually suffer side effects, usually at a rate of in my experience three side effects to every one benefit. Patient 001 will continue to take whatever medication Dr Dumbass gave him, all the while the medication starts to cause adverse effects and even new health problems independent of the original medication. Dr Dumbass then throws more bandaid short term solutions, ie. more pharmaceuticals at patient 001's problem as patient 001's health and wellbeing inevitably continue to deteriorate. 

Dr Dumbass basically releases the cat to catch the mouse, the lion to catch the cat, and the dragon to catch the lion, which pretty soon leaves the patient with a dragon, ie. a serious problem and a state of poor health. Sometimes you get several lions, cats, dragons or whatever all at the same time, it becomes a big ****ing chemical zoo in your body and they end up fighting each other.

Of course all this time, while Dr Dumbass has been putting off doing any real work, he has been getting new patients on his roster. So while by the time patient 001 has developed serious health issues, because the original health issues were not addressed properly and he/she was given no support, no resources, and no effort of rehabilitating that patient into a better state of health, Dr Dumbass has all the new patients since then. Since no one gets better, at least from Dr Dumbasses efforts, or lack there of, Dr Dumbass is still stuck with patient 001 and EVERY NEW patient since then.

It is at this time that Dr Dumbass inevitably complains that he/she has too much work and has to see too many people to actually treat any patients problem's effectively. Of course I liken this to a university student who jerks and slacks off all semester leaving all his/her course work until the last week of the semester, then turns around and complains that he/she has too much work to do.


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## bluecrime (Jan 27, 2013)

Eh, some are cool and some are egotistical scum. It’s like that in every profession. Except maybe banking, in which case they are all egotistical scum!


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## Slogger (Dec 14, 2010)

laysiaj said:


> It is extremely difficult to decide whether or not to trust a doctor.
> I have this thing that may or may not need brain surgery.
> I've talked to my primary, the urgent care physician, two neurologists, and a neurosurgeon. Had they all said yes or no to the surgery, it would make my decision much easier. Sadly, that has not been the case.
> I've decided to wait on surgery.


I have a similar situation, though maybe not as serious. Something's going on with my heart, and one cardiologist said I needed a pacemaker. Second cardiologist said, no, just drink more coffee and eat more salt. Umm, think I'll go with the coffee and salt for now...


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## WinterDave (Dec 5, 2003)




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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Sacrieur said:


> I'm sure the doctor isn't getting all of that. A minor invasive surgery for $5k?
> 
> No way.


OP is getting all these info from a patient. There is more to the story that we won't know about.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

nubly said:


> OP is getting all these info from a patient. There is more to the story that we won't know about.


By "no way" I did mean to intend that I was disagreeing with him.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

laysiaj said:


> It is extremely difficult to decide whether or not to trust a doctor.


 The worst thing is when someone you care about trusts a bad doctor and you can't get through to them. It might not be so bad until they have a serious medical problem. Most doctors are probably competent enough to deal with very minor medical problems. When you get to things like respiratory issues, cancer and heart or brain problems, it's much more problematic when someone chooses a bad doctor.


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

Sacrieur said:


> By "no way" I did mean to intend that I was disagreeing with him.


I work as an imaging P.A., throughout the country. I know exactly how much these docs are receiving. My information is from my job and salary as well as what they've shared with me.. Here in the U.S., yes, they make the big bucks.

If a radiologist here in NM is just a "reader" (no interaction with the patient) they receive $6,000 an hour. Yes. That's the top going rate. If they are asked to stay overtime just to "read" images, the rate is time and 1/2..

That means, the "reader" gets $9,000. (6,000 + 3,000).. now, if an "ordinary reader" or *radiologist* gets $6K for just reading films, how much more do you think an *interventionalist* (that's a *specialized radiologist*) gets for doing special procedures?

Some of the rads are "piece readers".. this means they get paid by each film they read. $100 - $150.00 per read. Which is why many of them "read" images at high volumes. This includes MRI, X-rays, CT, ultrasound, etc.,

The patient has absolutely no knowledge what the rads salary is. I do. I work with them..which is how i worked with the patient.

A paracentesis is not considered a *"minor surgery"*.. it is an *"interventional procedure"*..there is an abysmal difference.

whether you "agree" or not, i could care less, specifically if you have absolutely no knowledge of the field itself/nor ever worked in this field. I didn't bother to reply to your post the first time, because i know the source well.. which means - don't bother...

jeez, Sacrieur.. you stock grocery store shelves on the midnight shift that is, if you're still working?.. seriously? and you can't even do that without getting into a "power play" with the manager?

sometimes.. jeez.. that ego of yours..


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

nubly said:


> OP is getting all these info from a patient. *There is more to the story that we won't know about*.


Yes, Nubly, you are right.. but the part about the docs trying to "get a piece of the pie".. well, it's quite understandable. I doubt they will get a full $10K., but it's obvious, they certainly aren't doing this for free.


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

WillYouStopDave said:


> The worst thing is when someone you care about trusts a bad doctor and you can't get through to them. It might not be so bad until they have a serious medical problem. Most doctors are probably competent enough to deal with very minor medical problems. When you get to things like respiratory issues, cancer and heart or brain problems, it's much more problematic when someone chooses a bad doctor.


i think it's worse when the patient is "desperate" for relief.. and taken advantage of.. it's like having a serious tooth ache, and desperately looking for a dentist - any dentist to relieve the pain. Fluid on the abdomen is no joke..:blank


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

WinterDave said:


>


i think only Alec Baldwin can pull that off. Gawd he looked so sexy when he said that line??


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

thinkstoomuch101 said:


> I work as an imaging P.A., throughout the country. I know exactly how much these docs are receiving. My information is from my job and salary as well as what they've shared with me.. Here in the U.S., yes, they make the big bucks.
> 
> If a radiologist here in NM is just a "reader" (no interaction with the patient) they receive $6,000 an hour. Yes. That's the top going rate. If they are asked to stay overtime just to "read" images, the rate is time and 1/2..
> 
> ...


I'm really going to have to challenge your numbers here. $6k an hour? Really? I just looked up paracentesis reimbursement rates and we're talking about *hundreds* of dollars, which is as it should be, because it is a relatively straight forward procedure. Do you have anything besides your word to actually support these crazy high numbers, or is the hospital you're working in have floors tiled with gold? Lastly, many IM docs are perfectly capable of doing a paracentesis on someone with ascites, provided they've been properly trained - the nice thing about ascites is that a belly full of water that conducts sound is that you get a beautiful window making dodging pesky bowels double without the expertise of IR. When I was on IM, the residents performed things like this and thoracocentesis' and only deferred to IR under difficult circumstances (they seemed just fine at it as well mind you).


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## thinkstoomuch101 (Jun 7, 2012)

lonelyjew said:


> I'm really going to have to challenge your numbers here. $6k an hour? Really? I just looked up paracentesis reimbursement rates and we're talking about *hundreds* of dollars, which is as it should be, because it is a relatively straight forward procedure. Do you have anything besides your word to actually support these crazy high numbers, or is the hospital you're working in have floors tiled with gold? Lastly, many IM docs are perfectly capable of doing a paracentesis on someone with ascites, provided they've been properly trained - the nice thing about ascites is that a belly full of water that conducts sound is that you get a beautiful window making dodging pesky bowels double without the expertise of IR. When I was on IM, the residents performed things like this and thoracocentesis' and only deferred to IR under difficult circumstances (they seemed just fine at it as well mind you).


you're looking in "general".. you're not looking at individual hospitals? and no... the residents here? no way.. they are extremely lazy. Trust me on this one. i work here.

$6K an hour is certainly not "far fetched" for a specialist that reads films. (only).. when i was first told this, i was shocked. Not anymore..

I'm not exactly making "minimum wage".. but i do the same thing they do in some instances for a lot less. Having an MD makes a huge difference between the "doctors" and "non doctors"..

The one who performed the "botched" para, was not a resident. It was a full on M.D., with obviously no experience?

this thread is not about "wages" .. but it's good you're doing some type of research.

I'm basically giving an insider view on people really THINKING before letting anyone, regardless of their pay scale screw folks over and taking their money. Gladly.

And trust me, all "paras" "thoras" etc., are not always "straight forward".. if it was? that MD wouldn't have screwed up as badly as he did.

but thank you for your input.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

thinkstoomuch101 said:


> I work as an imaging P.A., throughout the country. I know exactly how much these docs are receiving. My information is from my job and salary as well as what they've shared with me.. Here in the U.S., yes, they make the big bucks.
> 
> If a radiologist here in NM is just a "reader" (no interaction with the patient) they receive $6,000 an hour. Yes. That's the top going rate. If they are asked to stay overtime just to "read" images, the rate is time and 1/2..
> 
> ...


 Yea, I'm going to call BS on this since a lot of the spiel you spit is hard to believe. First off, there is absolutely no way for you to know how much radiologists make 'throughout' the country because it varies from region, to the type of rad, to the type of facility they work for or to who they work for. Second, you say they make $6k at $150 a pop. That would mean that they will have to read and dictate a min of 40 films an hour.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

bluecrime said:


> Eh, some are cool and some are egotistical scum. It's like that in every profession. Except maybe banking, in which case they are all egotistical scum!


What do you call half of all lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start!


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

thinkstoomuch101 said:


> you're looking in "general".. you're not looking at individual hospitals? and no... the residents here? no way.. they are extremely lazy. Trust me on this one. i work here.
> 
> $6K an hour is certainly not "far fetched" for a specialist that reads films. (only).. when i was first told this, i was shocked. Not anymore..
> 
> ...


I have an insiders view as well and this isn't a thread about costs/charges, but the numbers you're throwing out, as Nubly pointed out, just don't compute. They don't even seem within the ballpark of reason, I mean at $6K/hr, at 40 hours a week, 45 weeks a year, that's $10.8 million, which is more than 20 times what the average radiologist earns in a year. That paracentesis charge you threw out there was also more than 10x what I've seen in terms what a given insurance company allows in terms of billing. Again, this isn't a thread about numbers, but when what you're saying seems so far out from reality on one thing, you'll forgive me if I begin to question the other details of the story as well.

IRT to many people in this thread

A lot of people love to rail against doctors because they have some personal hatred of them, for whatever reason, whether they had a bad encounter with one (or a few), or whatever else, and a lot of those people love to fixate on every bad thing possible, while ignoring every good doc they encounter. Looking at Noca's tirade, one thing that caught my eye was some crazy expectation that we should have to calculate out super specific doses of drugs for every single given patient - he doesn't need to understand what evidence based medicine is, or how medicines are studied, and why [in most circumstances] standardized doses are a good thing, because he'll look for whatever reason possible to hate the people he hates. Again, prejudice is a bad thing regardless of who is the target, and everyone who hates all docs might want to rethink ascribing the bad qualities of a few onto the many, many, many good, hard working docs who are fantastic and caring clinicians.


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## Sacrieur (Jan 14, 2013)

nubly said:


> Yea, I'm going to call BS on this since a lot of the spiel you spit is hard to believe. First off, there is absolutely no way for you to know how much radiologists make 'throughout' the country because it varies from region, to the type of rad, to the type of facility they work for or to who they work for. Second, you say they make $6k at $150 a pop. That would mean that they will have to read and dictate a min of 40 films an hour.


Even if they could read and dictate 40 an hour, the charge per film would drop substantially.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

lonelyjew said:


> IRT to many people in this thread
> 
> A lot of people love to rail against doctors because they have some personal hatred of them, for whatever reason, whether they had a bad encounter with one (or a few), or whatever else, and a lot of those people love to fixate on every bad thing possible, while ignoring every good doc they encounter. Looking at Noca's tirade, one thing that caught my eye was some crazy expectation that we should have to calculate out super specific doses of drugs for every single given patient - he doesn't need to understand what evidence based medicine is, or how medicines are studied, and why [in most circumstances] standardized doses are a good thing, because he'll look for whatever reason possible to hate the people he hates. Again, prejudice is a bad thing regardless of who is the target, and everyone who hates all docs might want to rethink ascribing the bad qualities of a few onto the many, many, many good, hard working docs who are fantastic and caring clinicians.


That was not my point I was getting across. The point was that doctors want to make it seem like when it comes to prescribing medications that their job is so complex that a lowly mortal such as a patient couldn't ever possibly understand. When you try and question them regarding their choice of medication, you get this look of disgust from them, like " who does this peasant think he is?".

Another example of dosage problems of just completely ignoring the patients case at hand when choosing a medication is when my Doctor was switching me from Delatestryl to Androgel. The dose at what I was given for Delatestryl was not working and was not enough to stop the symptoms of andropause. When he went to switch me to Androgel, he started me on the lowest manufacturer prescribed dose completely ignoring the fact, that the dose of Androgel when calculated for equivalency using the Androgel manufacturers website prescribing information, is a lower dose than what I had just been on and was already not working.

Both of these drugs are testosterone, so by prescribing me essentially less of the equivalent of the same drug instead of increasing the dose to one that worked I got to suffer through another 6 months needlessly of these hot flashes, chills, sweats and depression. This is that means that he completely ignores the patient's situation and is being nothing more than a mindless drone. I mean a machine could have done his job if he is not going use his ability to reason.

I am also having to wake up to go pee up to 14 times a night now, which has denied me sleep for 14 months now (originally it was just a couple times a night). I had told Dr Dumbass about this 12 months ago, and in 4 appointments and a year later, he has objectively (leaving emotions aside) accomplished NOTHING. Made no progress whatsoever. I had to get a second Dr Dumbass to work with him so that maybe the combined effort of two lazy incompetent morons could equal the work of one normal human being.

Three appointments later with the second Dr and he has tried one med, which did nothing even at double the highest dose, couldn't even be bothered to read past test results that I had done from other doctors, and the most he could come up with is that it might be an issue with my kidneys. But no, instead of giving me a referral to see a kidney specialist right then and there this idiot I guess is going to make me wait yet another month to needlessly prolong my suffering.

You have no idea how incompetent doctors are until you have been a patient in the health care system for closing in on 10 years. It is the only profession I can think of where you can effectively accomplish nothing and still get paid top dollar and maintain high social status. Where you get paid regardless if you actually put effort into your job or if you go to work everyday with your brain in hibernation mode.

My 20s have been robbed from me because of these imbeciles. The worst advice I ever received in my life was "just trust your doctor". I was naive to think that doctors would have been able to solve any of my health issues and get me to a better state of health, so that I could go on with my life, go to school and get a job and a career. With the exception of surgeons, psychologists, therapists etc, medical doctors and their short term fixes have caused nothing but more problems.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

^ Aren't you on like 20 meds or something like that though. Sorry you had to go through subpar healthcare and not the great quality of healthcare that Americans receive.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

nubly said:


> ^ Aren't you on like 20 meds or something like that though. Sorry you had to go through subpar healthcare and not the great quality of healthcare that Americans receive.


I am only on 2 meds now. I was on a lot of meds because that is all doctors know how to do. If have you have any illnesses the doctor just throws you on meds for your symptoms which I guess he expects you to take for life. This is because he is too lazy to identify the cause and create an exit strategy from the meds you are on and a treatment plan to return you to a state of health where meds are not necessary. So while you stay on the first med he gives you, it causes new problems which require more meds and so on. Dr Dumbasses approach to medicine is a recipe for failure, regardless Dr Dumbass thinks he/she is making a positive difference by making sure his/her patients stay sick for life and never get well.

As for America's healthcare system, that was the only healthcare system ranked worse than ours of out 11 major industrialized countries by the latest Common Wealth Study. It doesn't say much about ours being the 2nd worst in the world but your country's healthcare would be even worse. I can't even comprehend having to pay like $200 to see these useless turds and get nothing for my money. The doctors, how they are paid and their approach to medicine is identical to here, only difference is who pays them.

But I know as a typical American, you think your country is number one at everyone because Murica is the only country that you can point to on a map.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Noca said:


> I am only on 2 meds now. I was on a lot of meds because that is all doctors know how to do. If have you have any illnesses the doctor just throws you on meds for your symptoms which I guess he expects you to take for life. This is because he is too lazy to identify the cause and create an exit stratrgy from the meds you are on and a treatment plan to return you to a state of health where meds are not neccessary. So while you stay on the first med he gives you, it causes new problems which require more meds and so on. Dr Dumbasses approach to medicine is a recipe for failure, regardless Dr Dumbass thinks he/she is making a positive difference by maling sure his/her patients stay sick for life and never get well.
> 
> As for America's healthcare system, that was the only healthcare ssystem ranked worse than ours of out 11 major industrialized countries by the latest Common Wealth Study. It doesn't say much about ours being the 2nd worst in the world but your country's healthcare would be even worse. I can't even comprehend having to pay like $200 to see these useless turds and get nothing for my money. The doctors, how they are paid and their approach to medicine is identical to here, only difference is who pays them.
> 
> But I know as a typical American, you think your country is number one at everyone because Murica is the only country that you can point to on a map.


I think the bigger problem is meds are the ONLY thing doctors know. Their entire swath of education focuses on a drug based treatment for everything and with the financial conflicts of interest all it does is drive up the cost of care with pretty dismal results in a lot of cases. I have to think anyone worthy of the respect the profession gets should be actually trying to cure and prevent these things instead of just dosing everybody up with as many of these lucrative patented drugs as they can.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

Noca said:


> .....
> My 20s have been robbed from me because of these imbeciles. The worst advice I ever received in my life was "just trust your doctor". I was naive to think that doctors would have been able to solve any of my health issues and get me to a better state of health, so that I could go on with my life, go to school and get a job and a career. With the exception of surgeons, psychologists, therapists etc, medical doctors and their short term fixes have caused nothing but more problems.


I shortened the quote because it was long. Sorry for all the crap you're going through and had to deal with. Without knowing why certain decisions were made, it's hard to fairly comment, but it is more than possible that you're unfortunately being taken care of people who are either outright bad docs or well out of their realm of expertise and should have been quicker to grant you referrals.

What I really wanted to address was the "just trust your doctor" advice, which I think is bunk for most people. You know yourself, your condition, and your problems better than any doctor because you can feel and observe what's going on 24/7. Furthermore, you're the one who has to suffer with a misdiagnosis or failed treatment. Even if you're an amazing historian, you're never going to be able to fully communicate complex problems fully, and so it is up to you to be your own advocate and to play an active role in your healthcare. Now, this doesn't mean that you should outright discount what docs say (not saying you do this), however there isn't anything wrong with trying to educate yourself or with asking questions about what's going on, why they think that's what's going on, what they're planning to do, why, and where your expectations should be. Unfortunately it wasn't so long ago when docs were treated as gods and many still expect unwavering faith from their patients, and don't expect to be questioned; things are changing but the bad ones are still out there in significant numbers and it would be worth switching docs if things just aren't working out.



Noca said:


> I am only on 2 meds now. I was on a lot of meds because that is all doctors know how to do. If have you have any illnesses the doctor just throws you on meds for your symptoms which I guess he expects you to take for life. This is because he is too lazy to identify the cause and create an exit strategy from the meds you are on and a treatment plan to return you to a state of health where meds are not necessary. So while you stay on the first med he gives you, it causes new problems which require more meds and so on. Dr Dumbasses approach to medicine is a recipe for failure, regardless Dr Dumbass thinks he/she is making a positive difference by making sure his/her patients stay sick for life and never get well.
> 
> As for America's healthcare system, that was the only healthcare system ranked worse than ours of out 11 major industrialized countries by the latest Common Wealth Study. It doesn't say much about ours being the 2nd worst in the world but your country's healthcare would be even worse. I can't even comprehend having to pay like $200 to see these useless turds and get nothing for my money. The doctors, how they are paid and their approach to medicine is identical to here, only difference is who pays them.
> 
> But I know as a typical American, you think your country is number one at everyone because Murica is the only country that you can point to on a map.


 I think you actually would have been better off with the American system (if you had insurance anyways). You'd have more freedom to get second opinions and would be as captive and dependent on any given physician as you seem to be. There is also clearly far less incentive to minimize costs so there wouldn't be tons of hesitancy in getting you a referral or a test to figure out what's going on.

Anyways, I've had the luxury to work with quite a few docs over the last year, and there have been a few who were just bad docs (surgeon who saw his patients as something to cut open more than anything else, ER doc who was about as useless as a doc could get, IM doc who was plain incompetent) but for every one of them there were quite a few more excellent physicians who really cared about their patients and worked hard for them. Maybe things are different across the border, but, no offense, I think you've become pretty jaded and take an automatically negative view of the whole bunch because you've been burned.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

lonelyjew said:


> Even if you're an amazing historian, you're never going to be able to fully communicate complex problems fully


They wouldn't want to hear it anyway, they don't have time. Their #1 goal is get you in and out as fast as possible.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

lonelyjew said:


> I shortened the quote because it was long. Sorry for all the crap you're going through and had to deal with. Without knowing why certain decisions were made, it's hard to fairly comment, but it is more than possible that you're unfortunately being taken care of people who are either outright bad docs or well out of their realm of expertise and should have been quicker to grant you referrals.
> 
> What I really wanted to address was the "just trust your doctor" advice, which I think is bunk for most people. You know yourself, your condition, and your problems better than any doctor because you can feel and observe what's going on 24/7. Furthermore, you're the one who has to suffer with a misdiagnosis or failed treatment. Even if you're an amazing historian, you're never going to be able to fully communicate complex problems fully, and so it is up to you to be your own advocate and to play an active role in your healthcare. Now, this doesn't mean that you should outright discount what docs say (not saying you do this), however there isn't anything wrong with trying to educate yourself or with asking questions about what's going on, why they think that's what's going on, what they're planning to do, why, and where your expectations should be. Unfortunately it wasn't so long ago when docs were treated as gods and many still expect unwavering faith from their patients, and don't expect to be questioned; things are changing but the bad ones are still out there in significant numbers and it would be worth switching docs if things just aren't working out.
> 
> ...


I never got a chance to finish school, go into a career to be able to get private insurance so no I dont have access to that level of healthcare. That private healthcare exists here too but you need to have lots of money or good insurance which only comes from having a stable decent job.

However the number of bone surgeries and diagnostic tests relating to them which I have gone through which are mostly unrelated to my inability to function, the remaining 20% and deductible would have bankrupt my parents and I, absolutely guaranteed. The rehabilitative type care you speak of is here as well there is no just way we could afford it.

Now you might have misinterpreted my comments about doctors that they all must have terrible bedside manners or something, this isn't the case. The vast majority have pretty good bedside manners and it is just the minority without. Unfortunately bedside manner alone doesn't help me. Mcdonald workers have great bedside manner too, but they can't help my health issues either. It takes more than showing up to work, showing up to your patient's appointment and being friendly to be a doctor, earn the social status and the pay.

Most of our disagreements aren't about what doctors should be doing but rather the disconnect between what they should be doing(and what the general public think they are doing) and what they are actually doing or not doing.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

A lot of times doctors will pretend like they care by using the B.A.T.H.E. acronym to trick their patients and rush them out the door. The patient doesn't catch on that they are no closer to being well and they are still in the same ****ty situation with no end in sight until they are halfway home from the doctors office. This method is actually listed right in the physicians guidlines on how to interact with patients issues by the government. 

Actions speak louder than words. So they can say they care (which will go in my one ear and out the other) and then there are their actions, behaviours, the 'I couldnt be bothered to even look at your test results done by other doctors up until this point even though i had 2 months to do it', willful negligence, wilful ignorance, ignoring half or more of what you just explained to them as evident in the follow up questions asked and so on.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Noca said:


> A lot of times doctors will pretend like they care by using the B.A.T.H.E. acronym to trick their patients and rush them out the door. The patient doesn't catch on that they are no closer to being well and they are still in the same ****ty situation with no end in sight until they are halfway home from the doctors office. This method is actually listed right in the physicians guidlines on how to interact with patients issues by the government.
> 
> Actions speak louder than words. So they can say they care (which will go in my one ear and out the other) and then there are their actions, behaviours, the 'I couldnt be bothered to even look at your test results done by other doctors up until this point even though i had 2 months to do it', willful negligence, wilful ignorance, ignoring half or more of what you just explained to them as evident in the follow up questions asked and so on.


 There is a show on Animal Planet called Monsters Inside Me... It is spooky to see that most of the people with parasitic problems require at least 3-4 doctor visits if not more to diagnose something that should be a pretty basic thing to check for. Carelessness, lack of time to really do due diligence is a driving factor, and I'm sure it is just as bad for other areas that never really get fixed in their rush to get someone a prescription and out the door, and start sending bills.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

knightofdespair said:


> There is a show on Animal Planet called Monsters Inside Me... It is spooky to see that most of the people with parasitic problems require at least 3-4 doctor visits if not more to diagnose something that should be a pretty basic thing to check for. Carelessness, lack of time to really do due diligence is a driving factor, and I'm sure it is just as bad for other areas that never really get fixed in their rush to get someone a prescription and out the door, and start sending bills.


I suspect that the burecratics who set up this system from time to time ask the doctors themselves how the system is working and if their approach to medicine is making a difference. I suspect that the doctors give misleading statements that they are indeed making a positive difference and that the system works but they just need more money.

It is a rare industry where the people working in it have such high social status that those higher up in the administration and governing levels actually take the advice of their employees and use that information to guide their decisions rather than getting their information from actual third party or unbiased sources.

I can't prove this but I really bet that doctors play a large role in keeping this sytem in the state of failure that it is in now. They think that they need more money because they wouldn't want to admit that indeed they are a part of the problem and are really just horribly inefficient and ineffective at treating any patient's health issues long term(which bankrupts the system).


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

knightofdespair said:


> There is a show on Animal Planet called Monsters Inside Me... It is spooky to see that most of the people with parasitic problems require at least 3-4 doctor visits if not more to diagnose something that should be a pretty basic thing to check for. Carelessness, lack of time to really do due diligence is a driving factor, and I'm sure it is just as bad for other areas that never really get fixed in their rush to get someone a prescription and out the door, and start sending bills.


Parasites aren't a common thing in the US. Yes, we learn about them, but not in very much detail (unless you're a specialist or work somewhere where they're common). One thing that you also pick up is that common things present in rare ways far more commonly than rare things present in common ways. There's a double edged sword to this approach - it leads to rare things being misdiagnosed for longer, but it prevents unnecessary testing (which carries risks) and procedures in everyone who has something common. That is to say, pancreatic cancer is nasty, and while a doc could irradiate ten thousand patients with abdominal pain to find one, and possibly save their life, he could cause 10 more to get unnecessary biopsies for benign things, all of whom would be scared to death by the experience, and perhaps one who suffers from a serious complication as a result, while another one gets cancer from the radiation.

Getting back to parasites, they're common in the third world, so they expect to find them, and know the symptoms to expect. You don't get that here, and the labs aren't "basic" or "obvious" because there are so few instances of them being ordered. Reading about a parasite while in medical school and in residency won't prepare someone for encountering it 15 years into their practice, especially if it isn't presenting in an obvious manner (eg a worm in their eye).

IRT to Noca

Unfortunately the ability to afford the healthcare was the big qualifier, so no argument Noca would probably not had decent healthcare in the US. The funny thing about what you're saying is that, unfortunately, you're in the minority. Everyone will tell you they want a great diagnostician/clinician/surgeon who isn't the most sociable to one who is very nice but not that great otherwise, but the vast majority of them are wrong in what their true preferences are. People largely will tolerate incompetence far longer than an abrasive personality, and in fact, people will speak far, far, far more harshly of the skilled surgeon who saved their life, but who didn't care to have an actual conversation with them than their doc, who may have misdiagnosed them, but who's heart is clearly in the right place. In short, people want a doctor who cares more than a want a doctor who is good at what they do. I'm not arguing with arguing with you about your desire to just get someone who can fix you, only that for most people, the fixing goes well under appreciated.


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## H i (Nov 23, 2013)

Always do research of course... The problem is when a lot of symptoms match other diagnoses. So, you should 'hope' the doctor knows best but most of the time the patient has a better idea what is really going on with their body than the doctor. Doctor will say your problem is X and you will believe your problem is Y. 

Doctor treats or preforms a procedure for X when you really had or were suffering from Y. Though, there are patients who are completely wrong or a hypochondriac. I still know if anything is going to get done I want to get treated for what I believe is my diagnoses. People should ask a lot of questions before allowing doctors to do anything. Ask why this is happening and correlate it to your own experience to see if it adds up.


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