# Heaven Would Be Boring



## Lifeisnow97

Think about it. You die and go to heaven, then what? What are you gonna do for the rest of eternity? Everyone in heaven will be super uptight and always judging you. There'll be people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa, where's the fun in that? . What are you gonna do with Mother Theresa? She probably doesn't even put out. The real fun will be in hell with all the colourful people. Musicians, painters, athletes, beautiful women. People who know how to party and enjoy themselves. That's the place for me, I don't know about you.

Note: Heaven and Hell are just metaphors. Heaven isn't actually a location. It is here and now. In the present moment. But they don't teach you that at church because you Would stop being driven by fear if you were to realise that. Start actually questioning things and thinking for yourself.


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## Protozoan

I expect you will make many friends on SAS with these topics.

Who are you trying to convince exactly?


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## Lifeisnow97

Protozoan said:


> I expect you will make many friends on SAS with these topics.
> 
> Who are you trying to convince exactly?


No one.


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## minimized

The only good thing about heaven would be trying to blow it up.


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## Erroll

Lifeisnow97 said:


> Think about it. You die and go to heaven, then what? What are you gonna do for the rest of eternity? Everyone in heaven will be super uptight and always judging you. There'll be people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa, where's the fun in that? . What are you gonna do with Mother Theresa? She probably doesn't even put out. The real fun will be in hell with all the colourful people. Musicians, painters, athletes, beautiful women. People who know how to party and enjoy themselves. That's the place for me, I don't know about you.
> 
> Note: Heaven and Hell are just metaphors. Heaven isn't actually a location. It is here and now. In the present moment. But they don't teach you that at church because you Would stop being driven by fear if you were to realise that. Start actually questioning things and thinking for yourself.


Ya got no imagination. Ya got 70 virgins, ya see (girls, boys, or a nice mix per your preference). So it's like an eternal orgasm man! So the only things you can choose to do is copulate or have orgasm. Would you get tired of even that after 700 trillion years? I can't say if I would or I wouldn't


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## Angela82

I read a lot of NDEs stories and I got my idea of afterlife from that, combined with my religious beliefs. You can choose between love or the absence of it. It's not the kind of sexual love I'm talking about. You will leave your body when you die, the sexual sphere is only related to the continuation of the species in the material world. It doesn't make any sense to think of it when you don't have a physical body and are neither male or female.
If you always lived for love, you are likely to go on doing it in the afterlife, but if you lived in a selfish way, hurting others, you will be away from love. God is love. He doesn't have the appearance of a human being, he's more like an energy source, normally experienced as a loving light permeating all things in heaven. I believe all of this things also exist here on earth, but most of us are not able to experience them, because they belong to some dimension we are not anle to experience while we are in our physical body. It's like radio waves, you cannot see them normally, but they are there the all time and can influence things, but you need the right equipment to "experience" them. Most things are things we cannot see. Actually, we are only able to see a tiny portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, the visible light. The quantum physics has shown us that this world is much weirder than you might believe. Time and space are only related to mass, so if you don't have a physical body you will be out of that. It's difficult to immagine though...
I believe we might just be some kind of energy form, vibrations, and that there is much we though we understood, but we were wrong.


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## Andre

Interest happens when you have something to think about. Usually there's a problem (bad) and then some people come together to create a solution (good). Boring, I know, but that's all there is.


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## Tetragammon

Lifeisnow97 said:


> Think about it. You die and go to heaven, then what? What are you gonna do for the rest of eternity? Everyone in heaven will be super uptight and always judging you. There'll be people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa, where's the fun in that? . What are you gonna do with Mother Theresa? She probably doesn't even put out. The real fun will be in hell with all the colourful people. Musicians, painters, athletes, beautiful women. People who know how to party and enjoy themselves. That's the place for me, I don't know about you.[/COLOR]


Agreed. If we assume that Heaven is for all the "churchy" people then there ain't no way in hell I'd actually WANT to be stuck with that for eternity! Especially in the fundamentalist sect I grew up in, Mormonism, church was such an _incredible_ bore every single weekend. And the people were by and large very holier-than-thou and arrogant. That kind of heaven would be a "hell" to me.


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## Paul

If there's a god with any sense of justice, Mother Theresa is in hell. She was a sadist who forced the elderly to suffer needlessly because she thought it was noble and jesus-like for them to do so.

As for Gandhi, even if his sleeping-naked-with-young-women thing was a little creepy I'd still enjoy a chat with him.


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## MasticatorOG

Lifeisnow97 said:


> Think about it. You die and go to heaven, then what? What are you gonna do for the rest of eternity? Everyone in heaven will be super uptight and always judging you. There'll be people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa, where's the fun in that? . What are you gonna do with Mother Theresa? She probably doesn't even put out. The real fun will be in hell with all the colourful people. Musicians, painters, athletes, beautiful women. People who know how to party and enjoy themselves. That's the place for me, I don't know about you.
> 
> Note: Heaven and Hell are just metaphors. Heaven isn't actually a location. It is here and now. In the present moment. But they don't teach you that at church because you Would stop being driven by fear if you were to realise that. Start actually questioning things and thinking for yourself.


So ghosts DO exist?!?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## coldsorehighlighter

It's my belief that we don't go to "heaven" for eternity. You go to, and leave, heaven constantly, entering a "life" on this planet or another, with a blueprint for what you plan to experience during that life, good or bad. 

I believe this is all part of perfecting ones soul, the goal being to experience everything that is possible to experience. Negative experiences in heaven aren't possible, and so we gotta leave to experience those things.

At the same time as having a blueprint for our lives, we have free will, we have the ability to make choices that might veer us off our intended path.

That's just what I believe.


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## Scrub-Zero

That's because you assume we'll be in a cloudy place worshiping God while singing Kumbaya day and night over an eternal campfire.

But a deeper look shows God as a creator of the universe, so i can't imagine he stopped after he made humans. No doubt there will be a lot of places to visit and since God is a superior being we might have light speed travel and advanced ships at our disposal. Maybe even teleportation.

All over the Bible angels are vanishing, coming and going in an instant. Takes more than a magic wand wielding diety to do all that. If anything it's science and technology very far ahead of what we know now.


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## Yer Blues

No Hendrix


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## coeur_brise

I wouldn't mind resting in the bosom of eternity. I hear you can fly and do all sorts of things, except that its not physical as we know it. Maybe there is some merit to living on a physical plane where we can experience things like eating or having diarrhea. You know, earthly sorts. Can't have pain without pleasure, right?


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## sad1231234

man you have to check out people's life after death experiences


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## obiwanpepperoni

I don't like the idea of heaven or hell.

Heaven = Eternal Bliss

Hell = Eternal torture

Eternity is a long time. Scratch that, eternity is forever. When you sit down and think about how LONG eternity is, the math doesn't add up.

In the grand scope of things, how could a series of "good" and/or "bad" decisions in a person's life give them an eternal sentence?

If someone lived a "bad" life on Earth, why do they have to roast and toast in Hell forever? Isn't it bad enough to just give them 30 years of that? 2000 years of that? 100000000 years of that?

Won't the tortured soul have gotten the point by then?

The math doesn't add up.

Sigh... that's why I stopped going to Church.


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## ugh1979

Lifeisnow97 said:


> Think about it. You die and go to heaven, then what? What are you gonna do for the rest of eternity? Everyone in heaven will be super uptight and always judging you. There'll be people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa, where's the fun in that? . What are you gonna do with Mother Theresa? She probably doesn't even put out. The real fun will be in hell with all the colourful people. Musicians, painters, athletes, beautiful women. People who know how to party and enjoy themselves. That's the place for me, I don't know about you.


When you consider the concept of heaven with any depth even its hypothetical existence falls apart as an impossibility.



> Note: Heaven and Hell are just metaphors. Heaven isn't actually a location. It is here and now. In the present moment. But they don't teach you that at church because you Would stop being driven by fear if you were to realise that. Start actually questioning things and thinking for yourself.


Well said.


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## ugh1979

Angela82 said:


> I read a lot of NDEs stories and I got my idea of afterlife from that, combined with my religious beliefs. You can choose between love or the absence of it. It's not the kind of sexual love I'm talking about. You will leave your body when you die, the sexual sphere is only related to the continuation of the species in the material world. It doesn't make any sense to think of it when you don't have a physical body and are neither male or female.
> If you always lived for love, you are likely to go on doing it in the afterlife, but if you lived in a selfish way, hurting others, you will be away from love. God is love. He doesn't have the appearance of a human being, he's more like an energy source, normally experienced as a loving light permeating all things in heaven. I believe all of this things also exist here on earth, but most of us are not able to experience them, because they belong to some dimension we are not anle to experience while we are in our physical body. It's like radio waves, you cannot see them normally, but they are there the all time and can influence things, but you need the right equipment to "experience" them. Most things are things we cannot see. Actually, we are only able to see a tiny portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, the visible light. The quantum physics has shown us that this world is much weirder than you might believe.


This is just a lame attempt at desperately trying to legitimise some fantastical idea of an afterlife with aspects of modern science.

What you claim isn't supported by said science and it's clear you know little of them.

Regarding this magical afterlife idea; can you explain how you would hypothetically spend a hour in your notion of the afterlife? Give some examples of events or other things a conscious awareness could observe/engage with.



> Time and space are only related to mass, so if you don't have a physical body you will be out of that. It's difficult to immagine though...


Wrong. As I say, you clearly don't understand the science you are trying to use as evidence. All information processes we can be aware of, (be that physical or conceptual), occur in space-time.

Think about it, your thoughts, even if they could be free from a physical matter base still exist as reported at a point in time and space. They didn't exist before you thought them, and they don't exist everywhere. They exist at a place and time which the seat of your mind occupies.



> I believe we might just be some kind of energy form, vibrations, and that there is much we though we understood, but we were wrong.


All matter is a state of energy, that much is well established, and the current most popular hypothesis in particle physics is string theory which in a nutsell posits that everything is made of vibrating 'strings' and the cosmos is like a grand orchestra. 

As for what we thought we understood but were wrong, that's the price we pay for being intelligent enough to not think we have all the answers and always being open to learning and expanding our knowledge of the universe.


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## ugh1979

the cheat said:


> It's my belief that we don't go to "heaven" for eternity. You go to, and leave, heaven constantly, entering a "life" on this planet or another, with a blueprint for what you plan to experience during that life, good or bad.
> 
> I believe this is all part of perfecting ones soul, the goal being to experience everything that is possible to experience.


So you think people in heaven plan to come back to earth to experience decades of pain, torture, ill health, being paedophiles etc? :?

What a bizarre belief. I can see no point or reason why that would exist even as a desirable concept.



> Negative experiences in heaven aren't possible, and so we gotta leave to experience those things.


When people say things like 'there is only good/positive' in heaven that infers there is no scale at all of preference/emotional response. Either everything has to be equally good, so exactly the same, or some things aren't as good as others so respectively negative.

People really need to think a bit more deeply about these inane idealist fantasies and how they could possibly logically function in any way that allowed us to retain consciousness.



> At the same time as having a blueprint for our lives, we have free will, we have the ability to make choices that might veer us off our intended path.


I disagree that we have free will, but that's 10 page debate so no time for it at the moment. :lol


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## ugh1979

Scrub-Zero said:


> That's because you assume we'll be in a cloudy place worshiping God while singing Kumbaya day and night over an eternal campfire.
> 
> But a deeper look shows God as a creator of the universe, so i can't imagine he stopped after he made humans. No doubt there will be a lot of places to visit and since God is a superior being we might have light speed travel and advanced ships at our disposal. Maybe even teleportation.
> 
> All over the Bible angels are vanishing, coming and going in an instant. Takes more than a magic wand wielding diety to do all that. If anything it's science and technology very far ahead of what we know now.


When people make up stories like deities they can bestow them with all the powers they want. Anything goes when you're just making stuff up.


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## ugh1979

sad1231234 said:


> man you have to check out people's life after death experiences


What of them? There are perfectly rational secular answers to NDEs.


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## eukz

Lifeisnow97 said:


> Think about it. You die and go to heaven, then what? What are you gonna do for the rest of eternity? Everyone in heaven will be super uptight and always judging you. There'll be people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa, where's the fun in that? . What are you gonna do with Mother Theresa? She probably doesn't even put out. The real fun will be in hell with all the colourful people. Musicians, painters, athletes, beautiful women. People who know how to party and enjoy themselves. That's the place for me, I don't know about you.


I admit this was a fun reading :lol

And I agree, people up there would be very boring. Mother Theresa, the popes, families like the Flanders (though I think Gandhi would be in Hell actually).

Some of the apostles would be very bored in Heaven with those people as well, since some of them were similar to hippies IIRC.


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## humblebee

Sure it probably would be boring but If heaven or hell were real, where would you rather end up? Burning for eternity or "paradise"? The obvious answer is paradise man who cares if it's boring.


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## dystopiadrone

Also, think about the type of people who tell people about how they're going to heaven and others are going to hell... They are kind of awful. Usually homophobic, xenophobic and enjoy the idea of millions of people burning for an eternity. That's some scary type of people to spend an eternity with.


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## Tetragammon

dystopiadrone said:


> Also, think about the type of people who tell people about how they're going to heaven and others are going to hell... They are kind of awful. Usually homophobic, xenophobic and enjoy the idea of millions of people burning for an eternity. That's some scary type of people to spend an eternity with.


Good point. I always wondered how the hypocrites I grew up with didn't realize that their "god" would immediately see through all of their lies, if he really was as omniscient as they always preached. Maybe some of them really didn't believe at all but took the opportunity to manipulate, exclude and harm others... But some of them must have been true believers. How can anyone practice such bigotry and hatred for their fellow man and still expect to be "exalted" in the next life?


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## Humesday

Well, you could just say that, once we get to heaven, we'll have unlimited imaginations and unlimited means to fulfill those imaginations. It's pretty easy to throw something into the gears of that, but it doesn't matter because it's faith. Believe whatever you want. People just shouldn't expect atheists and other people, especially online, to accept or respect it. If people challenge you on your faith, you can go full skepticism and tear everything down with, for example, the problem of induction. It's intellectually dishonest and self-defeating, given how religious people typically praise their particular faith for being a faith, to go around saying all beliefs are faith-based. But, intellectual honesty or consistency is overrated anyway. Cognitive dissonance and delusion can make life much more interesting. Take that leap of faith and believe something crazy. You only live once.

Lower yourself to the depths of nihilism and ascend transformed to the height of delusion, spirituality, and faith. It's the will-to-delusion. Become similar to a Kierkegaardian knight of faith and go nuts. 

Something like that worked well for Oliver Cromwell, imo. If it worked well for ole Ollie, as I affectionately call my hero, it's good enough for me. 

/kidding


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## VanitysFiend

Lifeisnow97 said:


> Think about it.* You die and go to heaven, then what?* *What are you gonna do for the rest of eternity? *Everyone in heaven will be super uptight and always judging you. There'll be people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa, where's the fun in that? . What are you gonna do with Mother Theresa? She probably doesn't even put out. The real fun will be in hell with all the colourful people. Musicians, painters, athletes, beautiful women. People who know how to party and enjoy themselves. That's the place for me, I don't know about you.
> 
> Note: Heaven and Hell are just metaphors. Heaven isn't actually a location. It is here and now. In the present moment. But they don't teach you that at church because you Would stop being driven by fear if you were to realise that. Start actually questioning things and thinking for yourself.


There's always the 'abominable fancy'...>


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## dystopiadrone

VanitysFiend said:


> There's always the 'abominable fancy'...>


lmao, I've never heard of that. Learn something new everyday. :int


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## VanitysFiend

dystopiadrone said:


> lmao, I've never heard of that. Learn something new everyday. :int


Gotta love how for several centuries heaven was basically sold as a form of torture porn to the masses, just when u thought christian philosophies couldn't get more scummy...


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## dystopiadrone

VanitysFiend said:


> Gotta love how for several centuries heaven was basically sold as a form of torture porn to the masses, just when u thought christian philosophies couldn't get more scummy...


Yeah, it's a disturbing concept to juxtapose the teachings of the messiah of Christianity with the sick little behaviors of a great many of the"believers"in Christ throughout time . It's funny, like a week ago I was watching the movie "Hannibal" the movie that is a sort of sequel or aftermath of Silence of the Lambs... and I got to thinking who does Hannibal Lecter remind me of? And I was like: " Yeah he kind of reminds me of this guy who wants to punish sinners and judge the misdeeds of humanity with unspeakable terror.... aka God :eyes:eyes:eyes Well at least a common Christian patriarchal God, the white beard, 6-pack kinda looks like Zeus king pimp of the universe guy I see a lot of.


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## VanitysFiend

dystopiadrone said:


> Yeah*, it's a disturbing concept to juxtapose the teachings of the messiah of Christianity with the sick little behaviors of a great many of the"believers"in Christ throughout time .* It's funny, like a week ago I was watching the movie "Hannibal" the movie that is a sort of sequel or aftermath of Silence of the Lambs... and I got to thinking who does Hannibal Lecter remind me of? And I was like: " Yeah he kind of reminds me of this guy who wants to punish sinners and judge the misdeeds of humanity with unspeakable terror.... aka God :eyes:eyes:eyes Well at least a common Christian patriarchal God, the white beard, 6-pack kinda looks like Zeus king pimp of the universe guy I see a lot of.


Jesus's teachings r a mixed bag, the good stuff is too impractical (turn the other cheek, give away all your sh*t and help the poor), and the bad stuff is eternal torture for people who don't worship him, which didn't really exist in Judaism beforehand. It's almost like Jesus was a composite character or something...


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## SplendidBob

No reason to assume you would be the same person in heaven, you might enjoy all the knitting and tea up there (given you would no longer have your brain which seems to play a role in personality and preference).


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## harrison

splendidbob said:


> No reason to assume you would be the same person in heaven, you might enjoy all the knitting and tea up there (given you would no longer have your brain which seems to play a role in personality and preference).


Well no-one ever mentioned anything about tea before. I might just come along if they make a decent cup.

Not sure about the knitting though mate.


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## SplendidBob

@don - god needs his jumpers and keeps a close eye on the teapot (no free tea up there).


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## eukz

humblebee said:


> Sure it probably would be boring but If heaven or hell were real, where would you rather end up? Burning for eternity or "paradise"? The obvious answer is paradise man who cares if it's boring.


Eternal boredom = practically hell.........


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## millenniumman75

Lifeisnow97 said:


> Think about it. You die and go to heaven, then what? What are you gonna do for the rest of eternity? Everyone in heaven will be super uptight and always judging you. There'll be people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa, where's the fun in that? . *What are you gonna do with Mother Theresa? She probably doesn't even put out.* The real fun will be in hell with all the colourful people. Musicians, painters, athletes, beautiful women. People who know how to party and enjoy themselves. That's the place for me, I don't know about you.
> 
> Note: Heaven and Hell are just metaphors. Heaven isn't actually a location. It is here and now. In the present moment. But they don't teach you that at church because you Would stop being driven by fear if you were to realise that. Start actually questioning things and thinking for yourself.


In Heaven, nobody will have to "put out". We won't have bodies!
The "Note" is purely perspective.


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## Tetragammon

millenniumman75 said:


> In Heaven, nobody will have to "put out". We won't have bodies!
> The "Note" is purely perspective.


According to the Mormons, practically all women will DO in heaven is "put out." They have to create new spirit-babies so their husbands can become "Gods" of new worlds! Because we'll all get our bodies back in the Resurrection or whatever. Except the "Sons of Perdition" who will spend eternity in Outer Darkness without bodies.

It amazes me that I ever even tried believing in that crazy cult. They all CLAIM not to believe in polygamy anymore -- but the truth is, just "not in this world." Heaven is all about polygamy for them. In fact it's "required" to reach the highest tier of heaven.

But then again, heaven without sex does sound extremely dull.


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## blue2

Heaven's probably difficult to describe in the physical materialistic world but I'd imagine its like the best parts of drugs and alcohol without the negative effects


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## millenniumman75

Tetragammon said:


> According to the Mormons, practically all women will DO in heaven is "put out." They have to create new spirit-babies so their husbands can become "Gods" of new worlds! Because we'll all get our bodies back in the Resurrection or whatever. Except the "Sons of Perdition" who will spend eternity in Outer Darkness without bodies.
> 
> It amazes me that I ever even tried believing in that crazy cult. They all CLAIM not to believe in polygamy anymore -- but the truth is, just "not in this world." Heaven is all about polygamy for them. In fact it's "required" to reach the highest tier of heaven.
> 
> But then again, heaven without sex does sound extremely dull.


 We won't have bodies to have that kind of sensation. I doubt we would miss it. We wouldn't be in pain, either.

Well, that's their interpretation. I personally have never heard anything like that. The only "spirit babies" would come from God Himself, not "spirit sex".


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## eukz

So none has a body and none feels pain in Heaven... but everyone feels practically everything in Hell?


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## KelsKels

Yeah heaven to me was always described as a big mansion where all your family and everyone else just gets to hang out all day. Everyone is always happy and all you do is learn more about God and praise him. Even as a kid I didn't think that sounded appealing. You work all your life to make God pleased with you so you'll go to heaven, then all you do is praise him? What a selfish and narcissistic prick God must be, if that's all our lives are worth.


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## tea111red

One of my family members used to think this (the title of the thread) when they were younger and now they are super religious (compared to a lot of people in this world, anyway). :lol


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## tea111red

Lifeisnow97 said:


> Start actually questioning things and thinking for yourself


I did do this and my conclusion is that there HAS to be a GOD.


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## eukz

^ :blank


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## sad1231234

ugh1979 said:


> What of them? There are perfectly rational secular answers to NDEs.


Rational answers? Lol no, for now there are only mere theories based on the observations of current limited technology. Even guesses. Not answers. They dont have answers for anything concerning NDE's, because only the person who experiences them knows/underogoes what happens.


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## funnynihilist

When I was a little kid sitting in Christian school I can remember thinking about this. They made heaven sound so boring. Of course they made hell sound frightening so neither option sounded all that great. Lol.


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## blue53669

Tetragammon said:


> It amazes me that I ever even tried believing in that crazy cult. They all CLAIM not to believe in polygamy anymore -- but the truth is, just "not in this world." Heaven is all about polygamy for them. In fact it's "required" to reach the highest tier of heaven.


Yeah me too, right with ya. So pissed that I wasted 30 years in that world. And so SO pissed that they try to just sweep it under the rug now grrrrr :twak


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## eukz

CosmicJester said:


> Why would Ghandi be in Hell?


Because he didn't believe in the Christian God. Not even in Allah or Yahweh, so he's screwed. Those are their rules.


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## Bad Wahsabi

If there was a heaven and God, he would have some [email protected]%*&!# explaining to do.


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## eukz

Bad Wahsabi said:


> If there was a heaven and God, he would have some [email protected]%*&!# explaining to do.


He'd probably tell us he has weird fetishes and then he'd ask us to relax about it. And apart from that we certainly wouldn't be able to demand further details, since he's "God"......


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## SFC01

If there was a god, I think he would hate all those strange people praising him all the time. He would visit each and every one of them to tell them to grow the **** up as its embarrassing, and making him look stupid in front of all the gods of the other universes.


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## ugh1979

millenniumman75 said:


> In Heaven, nobody will have to "put out". We won't have bodies!
> .


Do you think there will be anything physical in your idea of heaven?


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## ugh1979

millenniumman75 said:


> We won't have bodies to have that kind of sensation. I doubt we would miss it. We wouldn't be in pain, either.


Do you think there is any range of emotions or feelings in your idea of heaven?


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## ugh1979

eukz said:


> So none has a body and none feels pain in Heaven... but everyone feels practically everything in Hell?


Yeah how convenient. :roll The usual double standards...


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## ugh1979

KelsKels said:


> Yeah heaven to me was always described as a big mansion where all your family and everyone else just gets to hang out all day. Everyone is always happy and all you do is learn more about God and praise him. Even as a kid I didn't think that sounded appealing. You work all your life to make God pleased with you so you'll go to heaven, then all you do is praise him? What a selfish and narcissistic prick God must be, if that's all our lives are worth.


Indeed. It's also highly submissive and oppressive.


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## ugh1979

nopersonoperating said:


> I did do this and my conclusion is that there HAS to be a GOD.


How did you come to that conclusion?


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## ugh1979

sad1231234 said:


> Rational answers? Lol no, for now there are only mere theories based on the observations of current limited technology. Even guesses. Not answers.


It doesn't take absolute certainty to be able to provide a rational answers.



> They dont have answers for anything concerning NDE's, because only the person who experiences them knows/underogoes what happens.


Why can't what people report be answered secularly/scientifically? Do you think dreams are supernatural in origin as well?


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## tea111red

ugh1979 said:


> How did you come to that conclusion?


I came to this conclusion by having a relationship w/ God, researching, studying, observing things and events, and making connections.


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## ugh1979

nopersonoperating said:


> I came to this conclusion by having a relationship w/ God, researching, studying, observing things, and making connections.


So why do you think your research, studies, observations and connections are right when the smartest most educated people across the relevant fields of academia/science have never found a shred of evidence for such a thing, but have found much to negate the need for such a thing to exist, and have found many reasons why humans fallaciously believe in supernatural agents such as deities. Do you think you're maybe smarter than them or have some revolutionary evidence you are keeping to yourself?

As for having a relationship with an alleged god, if that's reason to believe, then are the alleged agents schizophrenics report having relationships with real as well?


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## tea111red

ugh1979 said:


> So why do you think your research, studies, observations and connections are right when the smartest most educated people across the relevant fields of academia/science have never found a shred of evidence for such a thing, but have found much to negate the need for such a thing to exist, and have found many reasons why humans fallaciously believe in supernatural agents such as deities. Do you think you're maybe smarter than them or have some revolutionary evidence you are keeping to yourself?
> 
> As for having a relationship with an alleged god, if that's reason to believe, then are the alleged agents schizophrenics report having relationships with real as well?


I am going off of my personal experiences and the knowledge that I have. It has nothing to do w/ me thinking I am smarter than your heroes. It's just the conclusion I came to.

I don't know why you're bringing up schizophrenics. That has nothing to do w/ me. I have never been diagnosed w/ that illness or been accused of having it. I, personally, don't think I have that illness, either. I have observed enough schizophrenics and know myself well enough to feel confident in saying this.

If you are not open minded enough to try to believe in the possibility of there being a God, that's on you. It's more of your job than mine to convince you.


----------



## ugh1979

nopersonoperating said:


> I am going off of my personal experiences and the knowledge that I have.


I wonder why. :roll I already know you wouldn't be able to defend it and I can probably guess the errors in reasoning and cognitive fallacies you have made.



> It has nothing to do w/ me thinking I am smarter than your heroes. It's just the conclusion I came to.


A contradictory conclusion, so does that not infer you think they are wrong in their conclusion?



> I don't know why you're bringing up schizophrenics. That has nothing to do w/ me. I have never been diagnosed w/ that illness or been accused of having it. I, personally, don't think I have that illness, either. I have observed enough schizophrenics and know myself well enough to feel confident in saying this.


I didn't say anything about you having schizophrenia. :? I just made an analogy. Analogies aren't accusations.



> If you are not open minded enough to try to believe in the possibility of there being a God, that's on you.


Believing in things there is no credible evidence for is credulity. I'm always open to new ideas, but they need to have rational merit. If someone is so open minded they believe things with no evidence then they should surely just believe anything anyone tells them or whatever they dream up. Otherwise, it's a double standard, or even, lack of credible standards for belief.



> It's more of your job than mine to convince you.


Of course, and nothing has ever even suggested the legitimacy of the existence of deities any more than the existence of invisible unicorns.


----------



## Miach

Heaven is good feelings for the soul. Boring isn't a good feeling, so there would be no boredom.


----------



## bluecrime

Good thing it doesn't exist then!


----------



## ugh1979

Miach said:


> Heaven is good feelings for the soul. Boring isn't a good feeling, so there would be no boredom.


Do you think some feelings would still be better than others?


----------



## eukz

KelsKels said:


> Yeah heaven to me was always described as a big mansion where all your family and everyone else just gets to hang out all day. Everyone is always happy and all you do is learn more about God and praise him. Even as a kid I didn't think that sounded appealing. You work all your life to make God pleased with you so you'll go to heaven, then all you do is praise him? What a selfish and narcissistic prick God must be, if that's all our lives are worth.


This reminded me of the Simpsons S16E19 (Thank God, It's Doomsday) :lol


----------



## Miach

ugh1979 said:


> Do you think some feelings would still be better than others?


Could be. But I imagine it isn't something you can accurately imagine.


----------



## ugh1979

Miach said:


> Could be.


So then the not as good feelings would become the new 'bad' feelings. I'd say one of things that makes things good is that they aren't happening all the time. Familiarisation, even if it's something good, becomes mundane if it's non-stop. It's the contrast and changes in moods and feelings that make the good ones special IMO.



> But I imagine it isn't something you can accurately imagine.


How convenient. All the portrayals of heaven i've heard from people over the years sound as mindless and inhuman as they are utopian fantasies that fall apart the second you scrutinise them with any practicality or logic.


----------



## Miach

ugh1979 said:


> So then the not as good feelings would become the new 'bad' feelings. I'd say one of things that makes things good is that they aren't happening all the time. Familiarisation, even if it's something good, becomes mundane if it's non-stop. It's the contrast and changes in moods and feelings that make the good ones special IMO.


No, if it was like that, there would be no bad feelings. Good feelings don't become bad in the absence of bad feelings, especially not in heaven. There will be no mundane feelings either, as that is a bad feeling. I understand what you mean about the contrasting changes in moods and feelings, but I think that is to do with appreciation of the feelings. I don't think that appreciation and taking things for granted would apply the same way in heaven. Like I said, I don't think it is something you can imagine.



ugh1979 said:


> How convenient. All the portrayals of heaven i've heard from people over the years sound as mindless and inhuman as they are utopian fantasies that fall apart the second you scrutinise them with any practicality or logic.


That is just how I imagine it is. I'm sorry if it seems like a convenience. I can't really comment on the people who's beliefs fall apart after you scrutinize them with practicality or logic, as I haven't seen this.


----------



## ugh1979

Miach said:


> No, if it was like that, there would be no bad feelings. Good feelings don't become bad in the absence of bad feelings, especially not in heaven. There will be no mundane feelings either, as that is a bad feeling. I understand what you mean about the contrasting changes in moods and feelings, but I think that is to do with appreciation of the feelings. I don't think that appreciation and taking things for granted would apply the same way in heaven. Like I said, I don't think it is something you can imagine.
> 
> That is just how I imagine it is. I'm sorry if it seems like a convenience. I can't really comment on the people who's beliefs fall apart after you scrutinize them with practicality or logic, as I haven't seen this.


So if all feelings are just the same then it's a pretty mindless place, devoid of humanity. It would be just mindless 'robots' programmed to be happy. At the end of the day it's just a utopian fantasy, and as I say, as soon as you start to fully think about it and scrutinise it the idea falls apart.

Saying it's not something that can be imagined doesn't shield you from most the questions relating to problems with the concept.


----------



## Miach

ugh1979 said:


> So if all feelings are just the same then it's a pretty mindless place, devoid of humanity. It would be just mindless 'robots' programmed to be happy.


I don't know if all feelings are just the same, just that it is without bad feelings. And you are making the mistake of trying to imagine it, with the "mindless robots" analogy. Like I said, I don't think it is something you can imagine.



ugh1979 said:


> At the end of the day it's just a utopian fantasy, and as I say, as soon as you start to fully think about it and scrutinise it the idea falls apart.


For me it doesn't. Maybe it does for you.



ugh1979 said:


> Saying it's not something that can be imagined doesn't shield you from most the questions relating to problems with the concept.


I'm sorry if it seems like I am using it as a shield, it is just how I imagine it is. I am wide open.

I will reply to anything later, as I am probably going to bed now. Goodnight.


----------



## ugh1979

Miach said:


> I don't know if all feelings are just the same, just that it is without bad feelings.


If they aren't all the same then there has to some kind of scale of difference, which means some must be preferable to others, or do preferences not exist there either?



> And you are making the mistake of trying to imagine it, with the "mindless robots" analogy. Like I said, I don't think it is something you can imagine.


The mistake is positing such a fantastical concept in the first place.



> For me it doesn't. Maybe it does for you.


Indeed it seems evident you haven't given it much deep thought. Most heaven fans don't though. They inevitably ignore all the issues that would strip them of their personality and self, and disregard the existential issues the concept entails.



> I'm sorry if it seems like I am using it as a shield, it is just how I imagine it is. I am wide open.
> 
> I will reply to anything later, as I am probably going to bed now. Goodnight.


Wide open to credulity and intellectual dishonesty it seems.


----------



## Miach

ugh1979 said:


> If they aren't all the same then there has to some kind of scale of difference, which means some must be preferable to others, or do preferences not exist there either?


Maybe they do, but probably not in the way that you have them here.



ugh1979 said:


> The mistake is positing such a fantastical concept in the first place.


I don't think that is a mistake at all.



ugh1979 said:


> Indeed it seems evident you haven't given it much deep thought. Most heaven fans don't though. They inevitably ignore all the issues that would strip them of their personality and self, and disregard the existential issues the concept entails.


There is only so much deep thinking you can do when it comes to something you can't accurately imagine. I can't comment on most heaven "fans" that you speak of. Feel free to bring forth the "existential issues the concept entails."



ugh1979 said:


> Wide open to credulity and intellectual dishonesty it seems.


I'm sorry if it seems like I am wide open to credulity and intellectual dishonesty, that is just how I imagine it is. I don't know how it is.


----------



## ugh1979

Miach said:


> Maybe they do, but probably not in the way that you have them here.


How can preferences be another way? They are preferences or they aren't.



> I don't think that is a mistake at all.


Of course, but i'll say it is when you say it's a mistake to think about it intellectually.



> There is only so much deep thinking you can do when it comes to something you can't accurately imagine. I can't comment on most heaven "fans" that you speak of.


Maybe you can't imagine how consciousness and social interactions could still exist in any meaningful way but others can.



> Feel free to bring forth the "existential issues the concept entails."


They are wasted on you as you are using the cop out that it's not something that is definable or subject to logic so in other words, anything goes.



> I'm sorry if it seems like I am wide open to credulity and intellectual dishonesty, that is just how I imagine it is. I don't know how it is.


At least you have the honesty to admit you don't know how it is. (Some theists are terrible for claiming knowledge of related things they clearly don't and can't know). However, do you also have the honesty to admit you don't know heaven exists?


----------



## Miach

ugh1979 said:


> How can preferences be another way? They are preferences or they aren't.


Like I said, it isn't something you can accurately imagine.



ugh1979 said:


> Of course, but i'll say it is when you say it's a mistake to think about it intellectually.


I don't think it is a mistake to think about intellectually.



ugh1979 said:


> Maybe you can't imagine how consciousness and social interactions could still exist in any meaningful way but others can.


Nobody can, because nobody will have experienced it before.



ugh1979 said:


> They are wasted on you as you are using the cop out that it's not something that is definable or subject to logic so in other words, anything goes.


I'm sorry if it seems like I am using it as a cop out, that is just how I imagine it is.



ugh1979 said:


> At least you have the honesty to admit you don't know how it is. (Some theists are terrible for claiming knowledge of related things they clearly don't and can't know). However, do you also have the honesty to admit you don't know heaven exists?


Yes. Do you have the honesty to admit that you don't know if heaven exists or not?


----------



## twitchy666

*Big Brother*

monitoring

is how heaven came about?
watching the loved ones. 
so they'd be performing for that

is how I thought of lost people when they passed away

by brother
and friends


----------



## ugh1979

Miach said:


> Like I said, it isn't something you can accurately imagine.


Or really imagine at all going by your replies. How can you know you would even like it?



> I don't think it is a mistake to think about intellectually.


Well that's contrary to all you are saying, since any questioning/scrutiny i'm doing with you is being met with an answer that demands nobody can't imagine it which means nobody can think about what it could be like.



> Nobody can, because nobody will have experienced it before.


You're missing the deeper points to what i'm saying. Consciousness undoubtedly requires the preservation of self, which means you need to retain some form of locality/physical element, as otherwise how do you know where you start and something else begins. That's just the tip of the deeper practicality issue with the concept of heaven that I allude to.

Indeed you can say it's unimaginable and all these issues won't exist, but that has certain implications in itself for what it is allegedly like. For example, you can't say you will still have self awareness, sensory perception, and locality of being (to address certain issues) and also say that you won't have self awareness, sensory perception and locality of being (to address other issues). As I say, when you scrutinise the basic logic of what it could be like huge issues emerge, such as preservation of 'self' or not as I say, and those questions don't require direct experience of it, as it's a simple yes/no question.



> I'm sorry if it seems like I am using it as a cop out, that is just how I imagine it is.


Indeed you are, just as someone can imagine any fantasy world where anything they want goes.



> Yes. Do you have the honesty to admit that you don't know if heaven exists or not?


Of course, just as I have the honesty to admit I don't know with 100% certainty, in the true epistemological sense, that there aren't invisible unicorns in my back garden. Do you have the honesty to admit the claim for the existence of heaven is just as valid as the claim for invisible unicorns, since both have exactly zero evidence for their existence or apparent objective reason to exist?


----------



## SFC01

ugh1979, I like your style ! and view point obviously.

It completely baffles me that people actually take something with zero evidence so seriously and even go as far to say they have relationships with god. Apparently most of them are adults too.


----------



## wof

Miach said:


> Heaven is good feelings for the soul. Boring isn't a good feeling, so there would be no boredom.


Kind of what Miach said, heaven won't be boring. Heaven is different for each person, for me it would be have my own anime where im the MC and where kawaii anime girls with different quirks flock around me and all want to be my gf and try to win me over. This life goes on for roughly 20-30 years and the anime world gets reset and I get plunged into a different anime setting with different themes, such as sci fi, fantasy, medieval, aging over 30 years is depressing af and I dont think this is heaven worthy. This is why I can't wait to die as my life atm is beyond boring and has plunged me into a depresssive state that I experience every single minute throughout the day


----------



## ugh1979

SFC01 said:


> ugh1979, I like your style ! and view point obviously.
> 
> It completely baffles me that people actually take something with zero evidence so seriously and even go as far to say they have relationships with god. Apparently most of them are adults too.


Thanks. 

Indeed what people get away with in the name of religion can be as as bizarre as it can be harmful. Institutionalised irrationality.


----------



## ugh1979

wof said:


> Kind of what Miach said, heaven won't be boring. Heaven is different for each person, for me it would be have my own anime where im the MC and where kawaii anime girls with different quirks flock around me and all want to be my gf and try to win me over. This life goes on for roughly 20-30 years and the anime world gets reset and I get plunged into a different anime setting with different themes, such as sci fi, fantasy, medieval, aging over 30 years is depressing af and I dont think this is heaven worthy. This is why I can't wait to die as my life atm is beyond boring and has plunged me into a depresssive state that I experience every single minute throughout the day


You'll have far far more chance of getting the world you want from virtual reality. Hopefully you can look forward to that at least.


----------



## wof

ugh1979 said:


> You'll have far far more chance of getting the world you want from virtual reality. Hopefully you can look forward to that at least.


I wish.... virtual reality proved the last couple of years to be one huge gimmick. VR is something like what happens in the Matrix, but that kind of tech. will definitly not happen in our lifetime


----------



## Miach

ugh1979 said:


> Or really imagine at all going by your replies. How can you know you would even like it?


Because I like good feelings.



ugh1979 said:


> Well that's contrary to all you are saying, since any questioning/scrutiny i'm doing with you is being met with an answer that demands nobody can't imagine it which means nobody can think about what it could be like.


No, I just don't think it is a mistake. Nothing wrong with thinking about it intellectually. And I don't imagine you can imagine it.



ugh1979 said:


> You're missing the deeper points to what i'm saying. Consciousness undoubtedly requires the preservation of self, which means you need to retain some form of locality/physical element, as otherwise how do you know where you start and something else begins. That's just the tip of the deeper practicality issue with the concept of heaven that I allude to.


You just need the soul, brother. There is so much people don't understand about consciousness and the brain. Far too much that isn't known.



ugh1979 said:


> Indeed you can say it's unimaginable and all these issues won't exist, but that has certain implications in itself for what it is allegedly like. For example, you can't say you will still have self awareness, sensory perception, and locality of being (to address certain issues) and also say that you won't have self awareness, sensory perception and locality of being (to address other issues). As I say, when you scrutinise the basic logic of what it could be like huge issues emerge, such as preservation of 'self' or not as I say, and those questions don't require direct experience of it, as it's a simple yes/no question.


You feel good feelings and don't feel bad, simple. But you can't accurately imagine it, so it is impossible to scrutinize anyway.



ugh1979 said:


> Indeed you are, just as someone can imagine any fantasy world where anything they want goes.


I'm sorry if it seems like I'm using it as a cop out but you are just assuming I am, you don't know. I have no reason to use a cop out.



ugh1979 said:


> Of course, just as I have the honesty to admit I don't know with 100% certainty, in the true epistemological sense, that there aren't invisible unicorns in my back garden. Do you have the honesty to admit the claim for the existence of heaven is just as valid as the claim for invisible unicorns, since both have exactly zero evidence for their existence or apparent objective reason to exist?


Well I'm glad we can agree we both don't know if heaven is real or not. No, heaven is much more likely as you just mentioned the unicorn thing out of nowhere, lol, that is totally random.


----------



## ugh1979

wof said:


> I wish.... virtual reality proved the last couple of years to be one huge gimmick.


Nonsense, it's the hottest tech going and is going to be massive once it reaches the mainstream market. How is it a gimmick? Are Facebook, Google and Sony just going to abandon it and their billions of dollars of investment. It's certainly not going anywhere, and will only get better.

You sound like one of the people in the 50's who said TV was just a gimmick and it would never catch on. :lol



> VR is something like what happens in the Matrix, but that kind of tech. will definitly not happen in our lifetime


How old are you? Let's assume you've got 70 years left to live. Think how far tech has come in the last 70 years, then consider technological progress is generally advancing exponentially, so the chances of photorealistic virtual realities that people do whatever they like in or more or less live in is very likely. (Some people already live a large part of this lives in certain computer game universes, albeit not yet VR) Of course it's not going to be like the Matrix, not this century at least, but I think it will come close, and who knows. This time a hundred years ago the notion of a computer or mobile phone would have been totally alien, so who knows what amazing tech we'll have in the latter half of this century.


----------



## wof

ugh1979 said:


> Nonsense, it's the hottest tech going and is going to be massive once it reaches the mainstream market. How is it a gimmick? Are Facebook, Google and Sony just going to abandon it and their billions of dollars of investment. It's certainly not going anywhere, and will only get better.
> 
> You sound like one of the people in the 50's who said TV was just a gimmick and it would never catch on. :lol
> 
> How old are you? Let's assume you've got 70 years left to live. Think how far tech has come in the last 70 years, then consider technological progress is generally advancing exponentially, so the chances of photorealistic virtual realities that people do whatever they like in or more or less live in is very likely. (Some people already live a large part of this lives in certain computer game universes, albeit not yet VR) Of course it's not going to be like the Matrix, not this century at least, but I think it will come close, and who knows. This time a hundred years ago the notion of a computer or mobile phone would have been totally alien, so who knows what amazing tech we'll have in the latter half of this century.


Putting on 500 dollar glasses with two tiny little screens is a gimmick. I do not understand how people find that more comfortable than the other already available option which is, controller+tv screen+chips n drinks+comfy coach. VR should be exclusively something that hooks up to your brain and throws you into a dreamstate where your 100% conscious


----------



## ugh1979

Miach said:


> Because I like good feelings.


How do you know it's only going to give you good feelings. You said yourself we can't imagine it. Wishful thinking evidently drives your belief.



> No, I just don't think it is a mistake. Nothing wrong with thinking about it intellectually. And I don't imagine you can imagine it.


How can _you _think about intellectually when you just say it's unable to be imagined/scrutinised?



> You just need the soul, brother. There is so much people don't understand about consciousness and the brain. Far too much that isn't known.


That's a non-sequitur reply that avoids answering my question. Are you saying consciousness may not need any preservation of self?



> You feel good feelings and don't feel bad, simple. But you can't accurately imagine it, so it is impossible to scrutinize anyway.


It's simplistic contradictory drivel. As I said earlier, it takes credulity to believe it and and intellectual dishonesty to just ignore the issues and brush them under the carpet saying something like 'you can't imagine it', so as to shield your idea from legitimate scrutiny.



> I'm sorry if it seems like I'm using it as a cop out but you are just assuming I am, you don't know. I have no reason to use a cop out.


Well everything you are saying is making it look like you can't answer my questions so are just dodging them saying 'it can't be imagined', even though knowing what it's like isn't relevant to various questions i've asked. It's like you are saying contradictions don't matter, and something can simultaneously be the opposite thing than it is. It's really not making for a good defence.



> Well I'm glad we can agree we both don't know if heaven is real or not. No, heaven is much more likely as you just mentioned the unicorn thing out of nowhere, lol, that is totally random.


So what if it's random? Both ideas have zero evidence so what's the difference? I hope you aren't going to make an ad populum argument as that would be a fallacy.


----------



## xxDark Horse

Well I heard theres no wifi up in heaven, you can't bring any of your belonging from Earth with you, and masturbation is banned up there.


----------



## ugh1979

wof said:


> Putting on 500 dollar glasses with two tiny little screens is a gimmick. I do not understand how people find that more comfortable than the other already available option which is, controller+tv screen+chips n drinks+comfy coach.


I guess you've never actually tried it. (Or at least a proper one like Hive) The fact you call them two tiny screens is weird since it gives the illusion of a huge huge screen, nearing our natural field of vision.

Sitting on a couch looking at a little TV screen on a wall invokes little immersion. VR headsets provide immense levels of immersion.



> VR should be exclusively something that hooks up to your brain and throws you into a dreamstate where your 100% conscious


One day it probably will be, but you can't deny the technology that precedes that isn't going to be very very popular.

I'm not sure you seem to be so adverse to it. :?


----------



## Miach

ugh1979 said:


> How do you know it's only going to give you good feelings. You said yourself we can't imagine it. Wishful thinking evidently drives your belief.


I just imagine it would be because it is heaven. Bad feelings are for hell, if there is a hell.



ugh1979 said:


> How can _you _think about intellectually when you just say it's unable to be imagined/scrutinised?


I just think it isn't something you can know if it is real or not, so intellectually you can only know that you cannot know.



ugh1979 said:


> That's a non-sequitur reply that avoids answering my question. Are you saying consciousness may not need any preservation of self?


I answered your question. The soul would be apart of you. Who knows, consciousness is very unclear. Nobody knows enough about it yet.



ugh1979 said:


> It's simplistic contradictory drivel. As I said earlier, it takes credulity to believe it and and intellectual dishonesty to just ignore the issues and brush them under the carpet saying something like 'you can't imagine it', so as to shield your idea from legitimate scrutiny.


Once again, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm using it as a shield, that is just how I imagine it. I am wide open. It is the truth and not contradictory drivel or intellectual dishonesty.



ugh1979 said:


> Well everything you are saying is making it look like you can't answer my questions so are just dodging them saying 'it can't be imagined', even though knowing what it's like isn't relevant to various questions i've asked. It's like you are saying contradictions don't matter, and something can simultaneously be the opposite thing than it is. It's really not making for a good defence.


Ok, ask questions that aren't relevant to knowing how it is like. I don't think I have answered this way when it is not relevant, but it would be good to clear this up. I don't think I said in anyway that "contradictions don't matter, and something can simultaneously be the opposite thing than it is."



ugh1979 said:


> So what if it's random? Both ideas have zero evidence so what's the difference? I hope you aren't going to make an ad populum argument as that would be a fallacy.


I just think it is more likely that there is an afterlife, than invisible unicorns in your back garden, lol. The fact that we exist, consciousness, could be considered evidence, once it has been explored properly and accurately. The fact that life exists is crazy enough, so the thought of an afterlife is hardly on the same level as something that is totally random like invisible unicorns in your back garden.


----------



## ugh1979

Miach said:


> I just imagine it would be because it is heaven. Bad feelings are for hell, if there is a hell.


What if heaven is actually hell? That's what I imagine it to be.



> I just think it isn't something you can know if it is real or not, so intellectually you can only know that you cannot know.


That shouldn't stop one from scrutinising the claim though. All beliefs should be subject to scrutiny. My pointing out all the issues with a belief in heaven does that. Exposure to the arguments against and issues with religious beliefs (or any irrational beliefs), do stop at least some people believing in them and they learn to realise their intellectual dishonesty and gain acceptance of a far far more likely place in the universe. One that is a transient existence in a universe that is indifferent to us. I know many people aren't brave enough to admit this undoubted reality, but there it is. It's the mature responsible rational stance. Willful ignorance and bury ones head in the sand can work for some people, but not people who are intellectually honest.



> I answered your question. The soul would be apart of you. Who knows, consciousness is very unclear. Nobody knows enough about it yet.


You didn't even understand my question then. I'm talking about preservation of the perception of self.



> Once again, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm using it as a shield, that is just how I imagine it. I am wide open. It is the truth and not contradictory drivel or intellectual dishonesty.


You seem to choose to imagine it in a very shallow way and ignore all the deeper issues and contradictions in the concept, hence why you are being intellectually dishonest. Never mind the intellectual dishonesty that is required to even entertain the belief in the first place. That's the truth.



> Ok, ask questions that aren't relevant to knowing how it is like. I don't think I have answered this way when it is not relevant, but it would be good to clear this up. I don't think I said in anyway that "contradictions don't matter, and something can simultaneously be the opposite thing than it is."


I asked if in heaven can a consciousness have a perception of self, therefore manifesting in a physical entity. It either does or it doesn't, which do you think it is? The answer, 'we can't imagine', doesn't apply.



> I just think it is more likely that there is an afterlife, than invisible unicorns in your back garden, lol. The fact that we exist, consciousness, could be considered evidence, once it has been explored properly and accurately. The fact that life exists is crazy enough, so the thought of an afterlife is hardly on the same level as something that is totally random like invisible unicorns in your back garden.


To the contrary, existence and consciousness in no way infer that there is a life after death. That claim is a inane as claiming a computer program still runs when you power off the hardware it's running on. All we can infer at the moment is consciousness needs a sufficient type of life to exist, (a complex physical brain), and ceases at death. We know from brain damaged people that when you damage/power down the hardware (wetware) we have in our heads, consciousness either stops or is impaired in various ways. In fact i'd actually give more credit to the idea of invisible unicorns in my back garden if I put the many worlds quantum theory hypothesis spin on it. :lol

You shouldn't assume that because you exist you will always exist. Other than there being no empirical evidence for it, it's just arrogant. Have the humility to accept you really aren't that important to just about anything that exists, (as are we all), and your existence will be over in the blink of star, (as will all of ours), and our atoms will eventually return to the stardust we undoubtedly came from in the grand cosmic recycling system. I know such a way of thinking can sound bleak, but if anything it just puts all the more value on the here and now, and one can be perfectly at peace and content with just a transient existence rather than thinking it's eternal. Also, taken to its logical conclusions, the concept of eternal life becomes more like hell or no identifiable existence at all, as i've been alluding to, so it's such an easy thing to dismiss as nonsensical fantasy. Also, having beliefs which actually have plausible/credible contributory evidence is very rewarding. Not having to just have 'faith' and nothing else certainly has its benefits.


----------



## Miach

ugh1979 said:


> What if heaven is actually hell? That's what I imagine it to be.
> 
> That shouldn't stop one from scrutinising the claim though. All beliefs should be subject to scrutiny. My pointing out all the issues with a belief in heaven does that. Exposure to the arguments against and issues with religious beliefs (or any irrational beliefs), do stop at least some people believing in them and they learn to realise their intellectual dishonesty and gain acceptance of a far far more likely place in the universe. One that is a transient existence in a universe that is indifferent to us. I know many people aren't brave enough to admit this undoubted reality, but there it is. It's the mature responsible rational stance. Willful ignorance and bury ones head in the sand can work for some people, but not people who are intellectually honest.
> 
> You didn't even understand my question then. I'm talking about preservation of the perception of self.
> 
> You seem to choose to imagine it in a very shallow way and ignore all the deeper issues and contradictions in the concept, hence why you are being intellectually dishonest. Never mind the intellectual dishonesty that is required to even entertain the belief in the first place. That's the truth.
> 
> I asked if in heaven can a consciousness have a perception of self, therefore manifesting in a physical entity. It either does or it doesn't, which do you think it is? The answer, 'we can't imagine', doesn't apply.
> 
> To the contrary, existence and consciousness in no way infer that there is a life after death. That claim is a inane as claiming a computer program still runs when you power off the hardware it's running on. All we can infer at the moment is consciousness needs a sufficient type of life to exist, (a complex physical brain), and ceases at death. We know from brain damaged people that when you damage/power down the hardware (wetware) we have in our heads, consciousness either stops or is impaired in various ways. In fact i'd actually give more credit to the idea of invisible unicorns in my back garden if I put the many worlds quantum theory hypothesis spin on it. :lol
> 
> You shouldn't assume that because you exist you will always exist. Other than there being no empirical evidence for it, it's just arrogant. Have the humility to accept you really aren't that important to just about anything that exists, (as are well all), and your existence will be over in the blink of star, (as will all of ours), and our atoms will eventually return to the stardust we undoubtedly came from in the grand cosmic recycling system. I know such a way of thinking can sound bleak, but if anything it just puts all the more value on the here and now, and one can be perfectly at peace and content with just a transient existence rather than thinking it's eternal. Also, taken to its logical conclusions, the concept of eternal life becomes more like hell or no identifiable existence at all, as i've been alluding to, so it's such an easy thing to dismiss as nonsensical fantasy. Also, having beliefs which actually have plausible/credible contributory evidence is very rewarding. Not having to just have 'faith' and nothing else certainly has its benefits.


I am not actually a theist, I was just having fun


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## nothing else

I just recently had this conversation with somebody. I would get bored as well. Eternity is pretty long. Think of way back when the dinosaurs used to live and then multiply that by infinity. Now imagine having to live in heaven praising God that long, I'd go mad. Even Christians would. Ask any Christian (unless you're like a monk in a monastery) to read the Bible 4 hours a day and praise God whenever they can and give up their worldly possessions to dedicate their whole existence to God. They wouldn't do it. And yet they are looking forward to an eternity praising God. It's kind of ironic and laughable.


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## SFC01

"Now imagine having to live in heaven praising God that long"

That would be a ****ing nightmare !!


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## eukz

^ Yeah.. on the other hand if you think about it, if you hypothetically spent an eternity in Hell I think you'd eventually get used to the pain. So, mathematically speaking,

as time gets closer to infinity => Heaven = Hell.

Simple as that.


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