# Ladies: Are there any of you that are actually indifferent to chivalry?



## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

I know that when guys do things like hold doors open for me they mean well, but as long as I'm able-bodied, I don't want to take this healthy body for granted. It is a little awkward for me to thank strangers let alone talk to them after a kind gesture like that. Plus I don't agree that men should always pay on dates. I try to at least pay for myself everytime I go out, but I end up having to surrender most times because the guy has been so insistent. A lot of this is the result of my upbringing. My father comes off as a bit of a feminist to me; he did raise three daughters after all. He always stressed the importance of being independent and always told me that men don't want a dependent woman. In fact he wouldn't care if I were to marry someday because his ultimate goal for me is to have a stable career and get a higher degree. I even have memories of him scolding me when I was younger for letting guys help me with certain tasks because he didn't want people to think I was lazy or something, ha.

Edit: I know that opening doors for people these days isn't done out of chivalry, but I've noticed that there's a certain body language when a guy does it depending on gender. Or that could just be where I live. Like I live in the south and guys here are really conservative when it comes to gender roles so when they open doors for women they'll stand to the side and motion us in with a smile. Whereas when they open it for another guy, they'll just hold it open while they continue walking in.


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## Asrais (Aug 22, 2015)

I think that, generally speaking, if a man holds a door open for a woman, or other so called chivalrous act, they are not doing it because they think you can't do it for your self - they are doing it because it is a nice thing to do.

I am a woman and while I certainly don't expect doors to be held for me, or seats to be pulled out, it's nice when some one does it and I don't feel any less independent for it.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Male, female, doors should be held out of courtesy.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

nubly said:


> Male, female, doors should be held out of courtesy.


Yeah, I don't understand why it has to be limited to just men.


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## Asrais (Aug 22, 2015)

nubly said:


> Male, female, doors should be held out of courtesy.


Absolutely!


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## Imbored21 (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm a dude and I hate it when people open the door for me. Then I have to say thankyou and that's way harder than opening a god dam door. BTW chivalry is ****ing retarded and has no place in this time period.


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## Asrais (Aug 22, 2015)

If I hold a door for someone, I don't expect to be thanked - I would just never allow a door to slam in someones face - how rude would that be!


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## PrincessV (Aug 17, 2015)

Hmm... I agree it's unfair for guys to always be expected to do things like pay on dates. It's only annoying if a girl isn't grateful for it and takes advantage of the guy. I believe in being independent also. When ever people open doors for me, I feel so so so awkward, especially when I can't find the words to say thank you. Even though it's nice, I almost rather people not open doors for me. It's so awkward. :um :tiptoe 

But when I think of a world without chivalry... I think of guys who don't know how to treat a girl right. Maybe it's not fair girls always have the role of being treated really well. BUT I believe girls can make guys feel special too. 

Overall chivalry is a good trait in guys. I wouldn't change it. A man who respects someone because she is a women, is attractive.


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## Malek (Oct 4, 2012)

I hold doors open for anyone following out a door behind me, it's common courtesy. We've all probably done some polite gesture even for horrible criminals, maybe... Yet it's all unbeknownst to us.


My mother raised me to treat everyone with respect, especially women. The last girl I went on a date with, I spent like a good amount of money on dinner, movie, and renting a pool table. I didn't care, I'm fine with paying for stuff like that as long as she appreciates me.

What hurt the most was that she forgot my birthday, then a month later I still give her gifts, really thoughtful ones too pertaining to her personality, said it was very sweet. Yet gets cold again so I faded away as well. Months later we even positive acquaintances anymore? Seems forced but I still treat her like a lady at work and help with tasks. She said Hi and thank you to me today, neato...


I personally think men with dignity will be wise enough to differentiate between the people who deserve such outdated kind gestures, and those who don't, to each their own though.


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## DistraughtOwl (Mar 1, 2014)

Malek said:


> I hold doors open for anyone following out a door behind me, it's common courtesy. We've all probably done some polite gesture even for horrible criminals, maybe... Yet it's all unbeknownst to us.


Same! Just because I do something nice for a female doesn't mean I don't do the same for men.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'll hold the door- as in not let it slam on the person behind me- for men or women. What I don't do is go completely out of my way, step to the side, and literally hold the door open as the person passes completely through. I don't do that except maybe on a date. So its more like letting the person behind me catch the door so that it doesn't shut in their face.

However I think it is really stupid for someone to get upset if someone does hold the door open for them. What does it matter why they held it open for you? I guess they would've preferred having the door shut on them.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

To me it's no longer about chivalry but just good manners. If you're ahead of someone entering a place, hold the door for them (male or female). If someone is struggling with something (awkward/heavy item), help them regardless of gender. For dates, I'll offer to pay however if they say no then I won't insist or anything and in probably 3/4 of the dates I've been on the girl paid for herself, I even had one insist on paying for both of us.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

Darktower776 said:


> I'll hold the door- as in not let it slam on the person behind me- for men or women. What I don't do is go completely out of my way, step to the side, and literally hold the door open as the person passes completely through. I don't do that except maybe on a date. So its more like letting the person behind me catch the door so that it doesn't shut in their face.
> 
> However I think it is really stupid for someone to get upset if someone does hold the door open for them. What does it matter why they held it open for you? I guess they would've preferred having the door shut on them.


I've noticed that men where I live step to the side more often when holding the door for women since they're pretty conservative. And I never said I got upset for people holding doors open for me. My anxiety just makes me loathe the small talk afterwards. I didn't say thank you to a guy out of fear once and he got pretty angry at me.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

acidicwithpanic said:


> I've noticed that men where I live step to the side more often when holding the door for women since they're pretty conservative. And I never said I got upset for people holding doors open for me. My anxiety just makes me loathe the small talk afterwards. I didn't say thank you to a guy out of fear once and he got pretty angry at me.


Oh no my second paragraph wasn't directed at you or anyone else in this thread. I was just thinking of a time when this woman got mad at a friend of mine for holding the door for her. I was like what the hell?


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

acidicwithpanic said:


> I've noticed that men where I live step to the side more often when holding the door for women since they're pretty conservative. And I never said I got upset for people holding doors open for me. My anxiety just makes me loathe the small talk afterwards. I didn't say thank you to a guy out of fear once and* he got pretty angry at me.*


What did he say?


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Sucks he got angry though I could understand someone getting frustrated. If I was being polite to someone and holding a door for them I would expect a thank you, being ignored in that situation would annoy the heck out of me.

SA though, tis an ***.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

Darktower776 said:


> Oh no my second paragraph wasn't directed at you or anyone else in this thread. I was just thinking of a time when this woman got mad at a friend of mine for holding the door for her. I was like what the hell?


Oh my mistake haha. Well that is pretty stupid.

I know that opening doors for people these days isn't done out of chivalry, but I've noticed that there's a certain body language when a guy does it depending on gender. Or that could just be where I live. Like I live in the south and guys here are really conservative when it comes to gender roles so when they open doors for women they'll stand to the side and motion us in with a smile. Whereas when they open it for another guy, they'll just hold it open while they continue walking in.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

nubly said:


> What did he say?


He screamed at me "YOU'RE WELCOME". Yeah, my SA was terrible at the time.


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## VidaDuerme (May 28, 2011)

Chivalry is a bit out dated, as is the expectation for men to pay for dates, etc. 

Random anecdote: I once dated a super conservative guy who insisted on paying for everything. I had just landed my first real job and actually had cash on hand, so I wanted to pay my own way. I wound up trying to give him the money, he refused, so I would leave it on the floor of his car. There it would stay.

By the time we finished up I had a couple hundred dollars floating around his car. I curse my own pride now, I could use the money.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Getting angry over a door. Hmm, must have been having a bad day.



LichtLune said:


> Same! Just because I do something nice for a female doesn't mean I don't do the same for men.


Yes.

I am an equal opportunity door holder.

And they can pay their own damn bill~ (and be _verbally thankful_ that I don't make them pay for my half, too!)


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

VidaDuerme said:


> Chivalry is a bit out dated, as is the expectation for men to pay for dates, etc.
> 
> Random anecdote: I once dated a super conservative guy who insisted on paying for everything. I had just landed my first real job and actually had cash on hand, so I wanted to pay my own way. I wound up trying to give him the money, he refused, so I would leave it on the floor of his car. There it would stay.
> 
> By the time we finished up I had a couple hundred dollars floating around his car. I curse my own pride now, I could use the money.


Oh my gosh, wonder what he did with all that money then


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## Invisiblehandicap (Jul 31, 2011)

You have to trick a man these days to get the opportunity to pay for yourself. I open doors for people.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

We should stop slaying those hapless spiders when they dare to frighten our fair ladies.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

I feel weird when I hold a door open for a woman. I do it for men too when I'm in that situation, but I just feel really nervous when I do it for a woman. I'm specifically talking about holding a door and stepping back, you know, where you let them go through first. I don't think too hard at all when I'm just walking through and letting my hand stay on the door so it doesn't close.


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## SuperSky (Feb 16, 2011)

Walking along, go through the door, and hold it while the next person catches up - good, normal, do this.

Walking along, open the door without going through, wait at the side and usher the next person through - bad, abnormal, do not do this unless you're actually showing the person around and they're royalty/higher rank/whatever.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I know what you're talking about, some guys (and it's always guys,) will make a big show out of holding the door open, but I always assumed their personality was probably just very theatrical. It does feel a bit like you've stepped into a musical though. Most people just hold it open normally though to be polite.

I don't think men should pay for women on dates either, especially in the beginning. But it's probably hard to find a guy who wouldn't insist, like they're terrified that it's a trick and if they give in you'll run away.

Pretty depressing really.

One time this guy I knew was making a concerted effort to always walk closer to the road, to prevent me standing closer to the cars. I wasn't imagining it, I didn't actually realise he was trying to do that until he told me because I wasn't cooperating :')



nubly said:


> We should stop slaying those hapless spiders when they dare to frighten our fair ladies.


I've always picked them up with a cup and moved them to another room/outside when family members and past male roomates have panicked and I was the only one who could save them. No need to kill them.


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## selfloathingregular (Aug 14, 2015)

I must say what passes for men these days is truly shocking.

A woman must be given everything she wants and needs at all times and men ought to be thankful for the opportunity to serve, love, honour and protect them. 

A woman should never even thank men for this because I feel it is their birthright. 

Chivalry is practically dead. But I am still fighting the good fight (despite not having the courage to even approach women in person, what a man, eh?).


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

selfloathingregular said:


> I must say what passes for men these days is truly shocking.
> 
> A woman must be given everything she wants and needs at all times and men ought to be thankful for the opportunity to serve, love, honour and protect them.
> 
> ...


Idk I just feel really uncomfortable everytime a guy has to pay for me because it makes me feel like a gold digger that is using him. I mean at the same time it's polite, but I just think if I already have the money I should pay myself. I come from a well-off family and my parents made sure not to spoil me, so I feel guilty if I accept more money than I need or have people spend money on me.


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## selfloathingregular (Aug 14, 2015)

You see my dear, you are 'out of touch with your feminine side' (wtf is this idiot talking about). A man's duty is to be your atm and he must be grateful for it.

Your comments are pretty similar to what my female tour guide said on my recent vacation trip to NYC. I politely said to her that it's not right for her to pay for lunch, refreshments etc. I paid for everything but she managed to pay for smoothies while I was off-guard. Drat!

Indifference and opposition to chivalry be damned!


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

It may be well and good that chivalry is dead. Some acts are over the top.

Unfortunately, respect and simple courtesy seems to be on the ropes as well since some people can't even seem to react accordingly to it.


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## selfloathingregular (Aug 14, 2015)

I love OTT.


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## Doobage (Dec 20, 2014)

Perhaps I'm a little old fashioned, but even though I don't expect men to open doors for me, I notice and like it when they do. Or maybe I just enjoy it because it means that somene has noticed that I'm a woman...when so much in my life has made me feel unfeminine.


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

Why make a negative out of a positive.

It comes off as highly pretentious to have people actually doing something for you, and complaining about it anyway.

I can understand the SA aspect, but even then, I'd do my best to be courteous and at least utter a thank you, even a meek one.

Edit: This is actually one of the positive things a man can do to be a man and it really shows the direction gender politics is going if this is now considered an offense.

You can be courteous to everyone, but at the same time, be "chivalrous" to women. I always do this, but the negativity makes me reconsider.


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## quesara (Jul 25, 2015)

acidicwithpanic said:


> I've noticed that men where I live step to the side more often when holding the door for women since they're pretty conservative. And I never said I got upset for people holding doors open for me. My anxiety just makes me loathe the small talk afterwards.* I didn't say thank you to a guy out of fear once and he got pretty angry at me.*


This happened to me once! I was leaving the gym and this guy semi-held the door open for me. I said thanks really quietly, but he didn't hear and was like "too good to say thank you, huh?" in a really aggressive tone. It was terrifying.

But yeah, I hold the door open for everyone whenever needed because it's the polite thing to do, even if I get stuck in one of those never-ending door holds at large events. :shutter: And I appreciate the same courtesy from others.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

Gojira said:


> Why make a negative out of a positive.
> 
> It comes off as highly pretentious to have people actually doing something for you, and complaining about it anyway.
> 
> I can understand the SA aspect, but even then, I'd do my best to be courteous and at least utter a thank you, even a meek one.


I'm not complaining, I think it's polite and all, I just don't understand why this has to be limited to just men. Like I try to be polite too regardless of gender, but everytime I try to help out a man, he usually turns down the offer because it seems like men are the only ones pressured to do stuff like this. If I'm having a good day, I want to do nice things for people too without having them question it.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Asrais said:


> If I hold a door for someone, I don't expect to be thanked - I would just never allow a door to slam in someones face - how rude would that be!


Meh its worse at work because this stupid custom often allows unauthorized people to sneak into businesses. I'm at the point where between that and people like the OP whining about men's double standard expectations I feel like just pulling the door shut behind me on everyone - and holding it shut too.


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## emilysanders (Aug 24, 2015)

Asrais said:


> I think that, generally speaking, if a man holds a door open for a woman, or other so called chivalrous act, they are not doing it because they think you can't do it for your self - they are doing it because it is a nice thing to do.
> 
> I am a woman and while I certainly don't expect doors to be held for me, or seats to be pulled out, it's nice when some one does it and I don't feel any less independent for it.


Agree totally


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

acidicwithpanic said:


> I'm not complaining, I think it's polite and all, I just don't understand why this has to be limited to just men. Like I try to be polite too regardless of gender, but everytime I try to help out a man, he usually* turns down the offer because it seems like men are the only ones pressured to do stuff like this*. If I'm having a good day, I want to do nice things for people too without having them question it.


Not in this situation, I can picture you holding a door open for a guy and him being like "Nah, I'm good" lol.

I agree that there are other situations where a man is pressured to be strong. But its a catch 22, we don't act strong, and we are repulsive. Act strong, and we are oppressive. It's very tiring, especially for men with SA.

Instead of scrapping chivalry, I'd rather see a female equivalent. You can be kind to all, and still so things that are masculine or feminine according to your identity.

P.S. I don't get notifications for some reason when you quote me. You are the only user I've encountered this with.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

Gojira said:


> Not in this situation, I can picture you holding a door open for a guy and him being like "Nah, I'm good" lol.
> 
> I agree that there are other situations where a man is pressured to be strong.
> 
> Instead of scrapping chivalry, I'd rather see a female equivalent. You can be kind to all, and still so things that are masculine or feminine according to your identity.


LOL, yeah they'll accept it, but they'll usually say things like "you didn't have to do that" or "are you sure?" like I'm crazy or something. In these cases, it then hits me that I'm a woman and I should stay in my lane haha.


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## zoslow (Jun 2, 2014)

As a man I think some chivalry is good (whatever the word really means - it seems difficult to find a definition of it and english isn't my first language but I sort of get what it is all about). Doors I keep open out of politeness and I prefer to pay for the lady too unless she insists on paying for herself. But I'm not that great with those little things like opening car doors or pulling out chairs and quite frankly I find it a bit ridiculous.

I mean sure, gestures can be nice at times but after all they are merely gestures. I think other things like me showing that I have been listening to her talking by asking about something she mentioned, or me getting her a thoughtful gift or me planning a surprise for her or me doing whatever really that says I like her and care about her should be worth more.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

Gojira said:


> P.S. I don't get notifications for some reason when you quote me. You are the only user I've encountered this with.


Yeah everyone tells me that. I think it's because I'm mostly on the mobile site on my phone and I've encountered more problems on it.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

zoslow said:


> I mean sure, gestures can be nice at times but after all they are merely gestures. I think other things like me showing that I have been listening to her talking by asking about something she mentioned, or me getting her a thoughtful gift or me planning a surprise for her or me doing whatever really that says I like her and care about her should be worth more.


Yeah that's understandable. I guess my biggest fear is feeling useless and impractical, so I feel the guilt everytime someone does something for me that I could easily have done. Especially when it comes to people spending on me. I don't want to assume that I'm richer than the person offering to pay for me, but I don't think it's fair to drain someone else's wallet when I've already got more than enough money and they could possibly be struggling to make a living.


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## a degree of freedom (Sep 28, 2011)

PrincessV said:


> Hmm... I agree it's unfair for guys to always be expected to do things like pay on dates. It's only annoying if a girl isn't grateful for it and takes advantage of the guy. I believe in being independent also. When ever people open doors for me, I feel so so so awkward, especially when I can't find the words to say thank you. Even though it's nice, I almost rather people not open doors for me. It's so awkward. :um :tiptoe
> 
> But when I think of a world without chivalry... I think of guys who don't know how to treat a girl right. Maybe it's not fair girls always have the role of being treated really well. BUT I believe girls can make guys feel special too.
> 
> Overall chivalry is a good trait in guys. I wouldn't change it. A man who respects someone because she is a women, is attractive.


I wonder if anyone else thinks it's kind of cute if a girl feels awkward for having something done for her. It's somehow a little encouraging to me if she is uncertain because I could do things the way I wanted and not feel I was up against a standard in her head I was being weighed against. How nice for someone to not know what to make of you. I think that's when, as a guy, to me anyway, you can shine.


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

acidicwithpanic said:


> LOL, yeah they'll accept it, but they'll usually say things like "you didn't have to do that" or "are you sure?" like I'm crazy or something. In these cases, it then hits me that I'm a woman and I should stay in my lane haha.


But think about it, like I added/edited into the post you quoted this from, I think a lot of this pressure comes from women. If we don't act strong, it's a turn off. But on the flip, it's getting to the point where your bashed for doing even the healthy aspects of being a man, so it's becoming areal lose-lose situation.

I'm just going to shop online from now on. No more doors lol.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

I think most people, of any gender, hold the door open if someone is behind them. At least where I live. I always hold the door open for everyone. It's silly when someone(usually a guy) goes out of their way to hold the door open for someone else(usually a woman), though. Like... running up in front of someone else just to open the door, like the person in front is incapable of doing so. They usually expect tons of praise for doing it, too uke

I don't expect anyone to pay for my dinner, pull my chair out, open my car door etc. I find all of that pretty cheesy, to be honest :stu It can be nice to treat each other, while in a relationship, but it shouldn't have to do with gender.


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## Nylea (Aug 7, 2014)

Yep, I'm pretty indifferent to chivalry. Growing up in the deep south, I saw quite a bit of it. Almost every guy I knew was raised to open doors (even car doors), pay for meals, and pretty much bend over backwards for women at any given moment. I'm always appreciative of a kind gesture from a guy _or _girl, but it's definitely not an expectation. I try to pay the same respect back whenever I can as well as turn the tables on unfair, traditional gender roles.

In fact, on the first date I ever had with the guy who's currently my boyfriend, I slipped my card to the waitress and paid for his meal. He was so shocked and happy that it was almost depressing. The waitress gave him an almost disgusted look when I did that, too. How stupid is that?


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

Gojira said:


> But think about it, like I added/edited into the post you quoted this from, I think a lot of this pressure comes from women. If we don't act strong, it's a turn off. But on the flip, it's getting to the point where your bashed for doing even the healthy aspects of being a man, so it's becoming areal lose-lose situation.
> 
> I'm just going to shop online from now on. No more doors lol.


I understand what you mean. I guess what I'm trying to say is that guys shouldn't feel obligated to do it if they don't want to. I sure as hell don't want them to feel rude for not offering kind gestures to women when they could be just having a bad day for all I know.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

acidicwithpanic said:


> I understand what you mean. I guess what I'm trying to say is that guys shouldn't feel obligated to do it if they don't want to. I sure as hell don't want them to feel rude for not offering kind gestures to women when they could be just having a bad day for all I know.


But they ARE obligated and most people who say otherwise would also call the guy a douche if he just lets the door slam closed.


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## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

I'll admit it - when I'm holding a door open for someone a small part of my brain is hoping doing so will make them like me - that's most likely because of my own insecure/vain need to be liked and validated by people.

So I can't honestly say that courtesy is 100% of my motivation (though it _is_ certainly most of it - 95% maybe).

I also can't help placing slightly more importance on women liking me than men liking me - again probably due to a combination of insecurity and vanity - but also sexual orientation, which I suspect plays more of a role in my motivations than I may consciously realise or intend.

So it follows that I probably look more eager to be liked when holding a door open for a woman than when holding it open for a man.

Add to that the fact that my reasons for wanting men to like me and for wanting women to like me are different.

With men it's because part of me feels threatened by them and doesn't want them to physically hurt me. With women it's because part of me feels attracted to them and wants them to feel attracted to me.

(obviously not attracted to all women or threatened by all men, but generally speaking)

^^^^^Sooooo add all that up and I wouldn't be surprised if my body language tended to unintentionally be different when holding a door open for a man than for a woman.

(though I wouldn't be surprised if my body language tended to be different with men than women _*all* _the time, and not just when holding doors)

So that's probably what's subconsciously going on when I hold a door open for someone. Aren't you glad you read to the end.


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## Malek (Oct 4, 2012)

I was raised old-fashioned, so I suspect I'm always gonna try to pay unless she's very insistent on paying.

I thought it would be okay if the guy paid for everything the first date then a bit afterward go half and half or something? Also don't girls usually spend a lot of money on makeup and whatnot? I don't know, I only dated two girls, and both times I spent quite a bit of money, I was happy to spend time with them even if both of them eventually changed their mind about me. In regards to paying, the first girl spent quite a bit of money seeing me just as well so I never felt she was taking advantage of me. The second girl however spent like literally nothing and eventually became cold to boot, so I did feel hurt. It really depends on the girl. Would they be more attracted to me if I expected them to pay all of their half? It's called a kind gesture and no I'm not trying to buy love, rather just convey that I care about her and doing nice things for her would make me feel good / more confident. I worked hard for that money and honestly most of my cash is given to my mother and brother, it makes me feel happier to spend it on a cute girl that might appreciate me, just saying.

Also men are torn between what to do as well and are just as confused so it's probably best to decide early on or just not dwell on the small details that much and just push through it, focus on your personalities meshing well together. I think it's a stupid trap on both sides really. Money comes and goes but forming connections is rare as hell, especially for people like us. Sigh.

Here's a comedian who jokes about this:


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

knightofdespair said:


> But they ARE obligated and most people who say otherwise would also call the guy a douche if he just lets the door slam closed.


Fair enough.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Malek said:


> I was raised old-fashioned, so I suspect I'm always gonna try to pay unless she's very insistent on paying.


This is one of the more annoying expectations, since men used to make enough from working pretty much ANY job to afford not only their own needs but also a family of 4 pretty reasonably. It was incredibly rare before 1970 that both parents would have to work in order to provide a living. The man was 'expected to pay' because few women had jobs and most men were making about 4 times as much as they do today.


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## Malek (Oct 4, 2012)

knightofdespair said:


> This is one of the more annoying expectations, since men used to make enough from working pretty much ANY job to afford not only their own needs but also a family of 4 pretty reasonably. It was incredibly rare before 1970 that both parents would have to work in order to provide a living. The man was 'expected to pay' because few women had jobs and most men were making about 4 times as much as they do today.


That's very disheartening and I'm aware of this, yet girls have told me first hand they expect the guy to pay for everything the first date then split it afterwards. So it's confusing as hell and these "guidelines" get in the way of what's ultimately important, knowing firsthand if you even like each other on a deeper level. I think it's important the first few dates don't cost too much money, yet nowadays it's still rather expensive to go out, this is why people prefer keep saying more often nowadays simple lunches or coffee just to talk. I don't even like coffee though, hmm.


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

Malek said:


> Here's a comedian who jokes about this:


Bahahaha, I love comedy that uses satire to emphasize the bull **** in life.






This one is at 1.25x speed for copyright


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## Malek (Oct 4, 2012)

Bill Burr is happily married.


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

Malek said:


> Bill Burr is happily married.


Common Law. The smart way


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## Doobage (Dec 20, 2014)

Malek said:


> That's very disheartening and I'm aware of this, yet girls have told me first hand they expect the guy to pay for everything the first date then split it afterwards. So it's confusing as hell and these "guidelines" get in the way of what's ultimately important, knowing firsthand if you even like each other on a deeper level. I think it's important the first few dates don't cost too much money, yet nowadays it's still rather expensive to go out, this is why people prefer keep saying more often nowadays simple lunches or coffee just to talk. I don't even like coffee though, hmm.


Just take each woman for who she is, rather than going by "guidelines". Some women will expect you to pay for the date, some will insist on splitting it, and some, like myself, don't care either way.

I dated someone in the past who *insisted* on paying for everything, even on the 4th date. The last date I was on was with a guy who I know is much poorer than me. I took my wallet out before he even got a chance to look at the check. Neither of them worked out but it had nothing to do with whether he paid or not or chivalry. The man who paid for dates ended up being manipulative and abusive. The man who I split the check with, I have feelings for, but he just wants to be friends. 

So do what feels good for you


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## bad baby (Jun 10, 2013)

Just Lurking said:


> Getting angry over a door. Hmm, must have been having a bad day.


that actually happens a lot where i live. i remember a few times when i was talking to a friend while walking or engrossed in other stuff and didn't notice the person behind me, and i ended up getting yelled out or had some venomous remark thrown at me for not holding the door open for them. one time this guy was behind us when we went into a store, later he was behind us again in line at the cashiers, and he started ranting at us about how we are so rude and have no common courtesy blah blah... seriously why tf are people so uptight around here? it's just a door. if i see you i will hold it open for you, but sometimes i miss things, i'm only human.

..o/t rant over, i'll gtfo of this thread lolol


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Gojira said:


> Common Law. The smart way


Then why are so much of his fanbase pissed off? I've noticed lots of mgtow's seem to be into him and feel betrayed (it's kind of hilarious)


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## Sean07 (May 9, 2014)

To be fair, if a girl or boy doesn't hold the door open for me after I know they've seen me, I feel a little pissed off in my head that that person doesn't seem to give a **** about fulfilling a common courtesy, I'd never mention anything though and after about 3 seconds I get on with my life and forget about it.

Also, you never know what kind of a day someone else is having so when people act in a way you may consider rude, sometimes their mind might be somewhere else completely to the point where basic stuff like that is not at the forefront of their minds. I know i've certainly felt that and I've almost definitely come across rude when I really didn't mean to. SA is a prime example of that sometimes. 

However, I do always check behind me when I open a door to see if someone is close behind and I'll hold it if they're within about 5-10 metres, any more and it looks bloody silly. The sex of the person doesn't matter to me, but I like the feeling you get from being polite and courteous to someone, being kind to someone as simple as it may be is one of those aspects of life that isn't just a pointless man-made illusion. 

I've been brought up to treat people as people, regardless of gender; so for someone not to pay because their sex organs are less protrusive than mine has always been a peculiar ritual to me. I do show off to women though in a way I don't with guys, but that's different.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

Here in Oklahoma everyone opens the door for anybody. Even old guys in wheelchairs have opened the door for me. I gave him a fistbump for that one!

But chivalry shouldn't turn into an expectation. If a woman thinks its the mans role to go to her side of the car and open the door for her everytime, then she's a total *****. Or pay for every single date, etc, etc.

Should be something that's appreciated but not mandatory.


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

knightofdespair said:


> But they ARE obligated and most people who say otherwise would also call the guy a douche if he just lets the door slam closed.


It's not a gender thing anymore - those days are long gone. It's just common courtesy to hold a door for anyone, male or female. If you let a door slam in front of me I would probably be slightly pissed off too.

I think men paying for women is long gone too.


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## Asrais (Aug 22, 2015)

It has been a very long time since I dated anyone - I've been married for 10 years - but when I did, I would pay my way, unless the guy insisted. If the date was my idea, I would pay the whole thing.

I think too often, people think too much into acts of courtesy/ kindness - just take them for what they are, a nice gesture, and move on. In the same way, people who expect common courtesy from every human, will be sorely disappointing - again, don't over think it - move on. It's just not that important.

Treat people (everyone, male, female or otherwise) the way you would like to be treated.


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## M0rbid (Jan 11, 2011)

I can't blame those men who were irritated for lack of courtesy. How bout some "thank you"? People need to learn some mannerism. Don't give a sh*t if you are shy or have SA, just say "thank you" when someone held the door for you.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

Doobage said:


> Just take each woman for who she is, rather than going by "guidelines". Some women will expect you to pay for the date, some will insist on splitting it, and some, like myself, don't care either way.


This is true, but as the guy you usually have no idea which "type" of woman she is. If the check comes and she says or does nothing then I'm assuming I'm paying for it. I also think in this situation if the guy himself suggests splitting the check then a lot of women might get offended. That's the thing, as the guy you just don't know unless she makes it perfectly clear or says "We'll split it." or "My treat." etc.

Once when this girl asked me out, we got something to eat and afterward she told me she forgot her wallet in the car. However I was already planning on paying or at least offering to pay anyway and so I did since we had had a pretty good time.

On a later date the check came and she grabbed it before I could take a look at it and I thanked her and was appreciative.


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## lilyamongthorns (Aug 13, 2012)

I love chivalry. I'm also old-fashioned.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

Asrais said:


> It has been a very long time since I dated anyone - I've been married for 10 years - but when I did, I would pay my way, unless the guy insisted. If the date was my idea, I would pay the whole thing.
> 
> I think too often, people think too much into acts of courtesy/ kindness - just take them for what they are, a nice gesture, and move on. In the same way, people who expect common courtesy from every human, will be sorely disappointing - again, don't over think it - move on. It's just not that important.
> 
> Treat people (everyone, male, female or otherwise) the way you would like to be treated.


Yeah I think too much about stuff like this before I go on dates. -__- It's like I'm trying to plan everything out when it shouldn't work that way. I guess I go out of my way to be considerate, but if it's the first date especially, I wouldn't know much about the person. I wouldn't know if he/she is going through a tough time financially, if they just got over a bad breakup, etc. so I just assume the worst just in case if they are struggling, so I don't make things worse for them. Yeah, sounds stupid that I would think that.


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## reaffected (Sep 3, 2011)

Nothing pisses me the **** off more than some guy shoving himself in front of me through the door. No, EXCUSE YOU. That said, I appreciate a kind gesture from a strange man who opens the door for me. I don't take offense. Dating someone, I kinda require it. I mean I do all sorts of things for him....some *ahem* a bit uncomfortable so it isn't asking too much to open a damn door.


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## bad baby (Jun 10, 2013)

idk, to me chivalry is a general attitude / outlook on life rather than a set of empty token gestures like holding doors and pulling out chairs and stuff. i mean any jerk can hold a door open for you on a date just to make a good impression, doesn't automatically mean that deep down he respects women, and vice versa.

also i feel really uncomfortable with people paying for me. especially if it's a first date and they blew a small fortune and then i decide that we don't really click and i don't really want to keep seeing them. i always feel like i owe them lol


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Then why are so much of his fanbase pissed off? I've noticed lots of mgtow's seem to be into him and feel betrayed (it's kind of hilarious)


In lieu of an impassioned debate...

KITTENS!!! Xoxo


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## thomasjune (Apr 7, 2012)

I've always held the door open for both women and men without thinking about it twice. I was just being nice. But now thanks to this site I'm starting to wonder if I've been doing something wrong all these years. 
Why does everything have to be such a big deal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## theloneleopard (Jul 5, 2015)

I hold the door open for _everyone_, regardless of gender and _always _show my appreciation to those do the same for me. If the guy seems a bit over-eager about it, so what!? I thank him, anyway. When someone knows I'm coming up behind them and lets the door basically slam in my face, I'm incensed. Likewise, when someone even doesn't bother to _acknowledge _me and treats me like a door stop, I'd like to slam the door on them (and have been known to verbalize my frustration).

As for paying for meals-I will insist on tipping if the other party pays. Again, doesn't matter the gender.

As for opening car doors and such-I certainly wouldn't be _p*ssed _if a guy did it, but I wouldn't expect it.

Sometimes I think feminism has gone too far when it is assumed that a man is being patronizing if he goes out of his way to accommodate a woman-_especially_ on a date!

I've lived in places where men treated women with zero chivalry, politeness, or respect, and if you happened to be stranded on the side of the road, _no one_ would help you. You were on your _own_. *No thanks* to that.


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

I don't care if someone opens doors. That's something automatic people do that doesn't have a lot of thought behind it except that it's polite.

I associate the actual word chivalry with people who go far beyond that, though, and want to do big romantic gestures based on conventional (or made up) gender roles and expect a woman to swoon for it. It's a red flag.


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## Loopsonshoes (Aug 26, 2015)

In all honesty I was raised to open doors and to be polite. Though your patience wears thin when living in the city of the selfish. Some think its their right to have a door opened for them. I once had a person walk through the door I held for them, not reply or even look in my direction then upon reaching the second door made sure it closed behind them before I could reach it! Since then I've only held the door for the elderly or women with young children.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Gojira said:


> In lieu of an impassioned debate...


...I didn't want a debate I was just throwing that anecdote out there. It's a bit odd how much some people feel betrayed by him and wish for his marriage to go badly etc.


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> ...I didn't want a debate I was just throwing that anecdote out there. It's a bit odd how much some people feel betrayed by him and wish for his marriage to go badly etc.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Gojira said:


>


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## Orbiter (Jul 8, 2015)

nubly said:


> Male, female, doors should be held out of courtesy.


You know, that's a really great comment.


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


>


I saw this one:grin2:

Good times.


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## Wren611 (Oct 19, 2012)

If anyone holds a door open for me, I just say 'cheers' and walk through. I also hold doors open for anyone because I'm a civilised human being.

I do get annoyed with people who don't acknowledge it with a 'thank you', but you just aren't to know if someone has SA or shyness issues, so it's always best to try to say 'thank you', even if you just smile at them holding the door for you.

When I was about 23, there was one woman (about 60) I held the door for in a nature park's gift shop, and she had a load of disabled and elderly people with her who she was bringing inside, so she asked me nicely if I could hold the door, and I said it was fine so I held it. It took the b!tch nearly 5 ****ing minutes to gather the people up with their carers, while I'm stood like an idiot at the door waiting for them all to go through, (and I'm actually trying to enjoy my day out as well with my girlfriend and my mum) because she'd ****ed off out to the carpark to find the rest of them, and when she finally makes it through the door with an elderly bloke in a wheelchair who'd been sat beside me the whole time, she makes no eye-contact with me, no acknowledgement to say "thank you", and I'm having to stand there still waiting for what seems like a coachful of disabled/elderly people. I looked through the door expecting the woman to come back and thank me, but she was well inside the nature park and clearly had no intention to bother.

I really wanted to go up to her and blast her for being so rude - young people and kids are always told by older generations that they're rude, have no manners, are nasty and ungrateful. Well, I'm afraid to say but that is also true of the older generation as well. I felt livid that I didn't have the confidence to say anything back then, and I felt so ashamed to be stood there holding the door and not being thanked. I didn't have to do that, I could have said 'no, I'm not your doorstop', or I could have walked away and let the door go as soon as she was taking forever to return, but no, I had to remind myself that I had to be kind, especially when I wasn't holding it for her, I was holding it for the elderly/disabled people with her.

Some may think she was rushed off her feet and didn't have time to thank me... but even the carers didn't acknowledge me either! They all walked through without looking at me or saying anything.

So, all in all, hold a door because you're a kind person, always make a point to thank whoever holds a door for you.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

Remember there are two ways to hold a door, keeping your hand on it as you walk through so it doesn't close in the other person's face, and then there's actually stopping and holding it while the person goes through. Do you think I should stop doing the latter for women so they don't think anything weird about me?


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

M0rbid said:


> I can't blame those men who were irritated for lack of courtesy. How bout some "thank you"? People need to learn some mannerism. Don't give a sh*t if you are shy or have SA, just say "thank you" when someone held the door for you.


I find having to say something more annoying than just doing it myself. A lot of the time rather than having someone hold the door I'd rather they just weren't there at all.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> Remember there are two ways to hold a door, keeping your hand on it as you walk through so it doesn't close in the other person's face, and then there's actually stopping and holding it while the person goes through. Do you think I should stop doing the latter for women so they don't think anything weird about me?


For starters, you should block her from actually going through the door (without making it obvious that's what you're trying to do) until you get a "thank you".

Once you get the "thank you", you bow and give her a wave of the hand, moving off to the side while saying "_M'lady_".

Chivalry in its finest form, my friends.


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

Just Lurking said:


> For starters, you should block her from actually going through the door (without making it obvious that's what you're trying to do) until you get a "thank you".
> 
> Once you get the "thank you", you bow and give her a wave of the hand, moving off to the side while saying "_M'lady_".
> 
> Chivalry in its finest form, my friends.


And then a nice open hand *** grab to finish. Perfection.


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## Skeletra (Aug 30, 2012)

Holding the door open is fine, but if he tries to open the car door or pull out the chair for me, I'll give him a "Really? do I look that incompetent?" glare and slowly shake my head.
I do prefer to pay for my own meal, tough my boyfriend will often insist on it. Mainly because he actually makes some decent money while I practically only make enough to keep my cat alive and buy lunch most of my work days.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

You know, I wasn't joking, door holding between men and women seems so politicized that it is very confusing and I don't what I'm supposed to do. I just don't want people to think I'm weird and I just want to get through my day without creating a longer than usual "cringe-reel" for review at bed time.


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## bad baby (Jun 10, 2013)

Just Lurking said:


> For starters, you should block her from actually going through the door (without making it obvious that's what you're trying to do) until you get a "thank you".
> 
> Once you get the "thank you", you bow and give her a wave of the hand, moving off to the side while saying "_M'lady_".
> 
> Chivalry in its finest form, my friends.





knightofdespair said:


> And then a nice open hand *** grab to finish. Perfection.


lollll :lol

i think the two of you should tag team it and start a door-holding business. it will be epic.


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> You know, I wasn't joking, door holding between men and women seems so politicized that it is very confusing and I don't what I'm supposed to do. I just don't want people to think I'm weird and I just want to get through my day without creating a longer than usual "cringe-reel" for review at bed time.


Exactly, you know gender politics has gotten ridiculous and off the rails when people get upset for receiving a courtesy!

And I completely get the before bed cringe reel lol :nerd:


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## Gojira (Jun 1, 2015)

bad baby said:


> lollll :lol
> 
> i think the two of you should tag team it and start a door-holding business. it will be epic.


This would be an amazing YouTube prank:grin2:


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## knightofdespair (May 20, 2014)

I could never do that with a stranger, but staged with a friend would be funny.


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