# LSD/hallucinogen therapy



## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

Nothing seems to work to bring about a profound change in the way I perceive/experience life. I've tried so much, with so little result that it's hard to believe it's possible at all. I'm getting out of options. I've tried ibogaine ten years ago but this didn't help me. A few years ago I first heard about LSD therapy for anxiety/depression. Psyloscibine and MDMA are also mentioned in some documentaries as being potentially helpful for treating anxiety/depression. Recently I've been giving it more thought because my life can't go on as it is. I'm going to look into this form of therapy. Is there anybody here who experienced it? With micro-doses or an actual trip?
I'm not advocating taking any illicit stuff by the way.


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## Maslow (Dec 24, 2003)

I did psychedelics when I was in my early 20s and saw people freak out on LSD. It seems dangerous for the treatment of mental illness.

Smoking pot changed the way I perceived certain things in life -- especially music. Living in the Netherlands, you probably already tried that.


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

Thank you for your reply.

It is off course not something to take lightly. I'm actually referring to a form of treatment, carried out in a controlled and safe environment with therapists. It has been a taboo for decades, but more scientific research has been carried out in the last years. I read about trials with promising results for the treatment of anxiety/depression. Something scientists were researching before the hippies destroyed everything.
From what I've seen and heard so far, I understand an LSD trip for instance, can enable you to view yourself and your history from such a different perspective that it can profoundly impact your life from then on. I imagine the feeling of connectedness and the realization that everything is one could be beneficial for someone who's life is destroyed by SA. 
I think I'd be willing to give something like that a try. 
I've always been scared of taking hallucinogens because I feel like I'm way too unstable for it. Recreational use is not for me really. I do however, realize that my only problem is the way I experience things. Any form of therapy is aimed at changing this. It hasn't gotten me very far though. Cognitive, meds, exposure, regression, etc. It just hasn't helped me to get to a point where life is actually bearable/enjoyable. The status qua is horrible, unsustainable. It's a "when everything else has failed" kind of quest, I guess.


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## ManInAShed (Dec 19, 2016)

LSD and psychedelics taken under the right conditions can completely change one's life. I'd say LSD even saved my life and turned me around for the better, it took me out of my depressive mindset and negative thinking patterns, allowing me to see things from an objective point of view and to look at myself and life with more compassion and empathy. With psychedelics you feel a connection to all forms of life, it can be a very spiritual experience and help you to put things in perspective. Don't rely on it to change your life though, eventually thing's will fade and your old mindset will eventually come back (as it's how you've been conditioned to think after all these years), the real work begins with you. Psychedelics are like therapy on steroids, one trip can be compared to 20 years of psychotherapy, I learnt more from one trip than I ever had in therapy.


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## catcharay (Sep 15, 2011)

Tuan Jie said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> 
> It is off course not something to take lightly. I'm actually referring to a form of treatment, carried out in a controlled and safe environment with therapists. It has been a taboo for decades, but more scientific research has been carried out in the last years. I read about trials with promising results for the treatment of anxiety/depression. Something scientists were researching before the hippies destroyed everything.
> From what I've seen and heard so far, I understand an LSD trip for instance, can enable you to view yourself and your history from such a different perspective that it can profoundly impact your life from then on. I imagine the feeling of connectedness and the realization that everything is one could be beneficial for someone who's life is destroyed by SA.
> ...


I feel the same way because I would imagine you'd have little grasp of controlling your thoughts to a better space where you could work on yourself, you would be freaking out/panicking too much. If you ever did it, I've read micro dosing and getting a comfortable feel for it before taking more(on a later occasion) is the way to go.



ManInAShed said:


> LSD and psychedelics taken under the right conditions can completely change one's life. I'd say LSD even saved my life and turned me around for the better, it took me out of my depressive mindset and negative thinking patterns, allowing me to see things from an objective point of view and to look at myself and life with more compassion and empathy. With psychedelics you feel a connection to all forms of life, it can be a very spiritual experience and help you to put things in perspective. Don't rely on it to change your life though, eventually thing's will fade and your old mindset will eventually come back (as it's how you've been conditioned to think after all these years), the real work begins with you. Psychedelics are like therapy on steroids, one trip can be compared to 20 years of psychotherapy, I learnt more from one trip than I ever had in therapy.


How many times have you done it per year?


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## ManInAShed (Dec 19, 2016)

catcharay said:


> I feel the same way because I would imagine you'd have little grasp of controlling your thoughts to a better space where you could work on yourself, you would be freaking out/panicking too much. If you ever did it, I've read micro dosing and getting a comfortable feel for it before taking more(on a later occasion) is the way to go.
> 
> How many times have you done it per year?


I don't do it anymore but I'd say I used to take approx 4 times a year, every few months or so to "reset" things. Otherwise old negative thinking patterns begin to creep back. I also would only take low doses 75-100ug, this was more than enough for me and to reap the positive benefits without it being too hallucinogenic. LSD is an extremely potent drug so I'd advise anyone to start small you can always redose another time, it's better to get a feel of the medicine and how it works. It's such an amazing medicine but needs to be treated with a lot of respect as it has the potential of unleashing fear and paranoia like you've never known before, set and setting are paramount.


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## CrystalGemPearl (Oct 3, 2016)

Does Las Vegas have good places to obtain them?


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## catcharay (Sep 15, 2011)

ManInAShed said:


> I don't do it anymore but I'd say I used to take approx 4 times a year, every few months or so to "reset" things. Otherwise old negative thinking patterns begin to creep back. I also would only take low doses 75-100ug, this was more than enough for me and to reap the positive benefits without it being too hallucinogenic. LSD is an extremely potent drug so I'd advise anyone to start small you can always redose another time, it's better to get a feel of the medicine and how it works. It's such an amazing medicine but needs to be treated with a lot of respect as it has the* potential of unleashing fear and paranoia *like you've never known before, set and setting are paramount.


Ah, thank you. I think 4 x per year would be worth it rather than regular psychological sessions (economical too). It is very scary with hallucinogens, I could only imagine it likened to a horror filled dream but you don't have the faculty to control or escape it if you're that unstable type. For me, I would be doing 75 max and no more if I had the means.

(OP)
There has been a lot of suggestions to starters, especially (from reading) that antipsychotics-mainly and benzos can kill it in case you get deeply wayward into a state of paranoia/panic. One suggested dose for starters was 150ug which I think is excessive.


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## ManInAShed (Dec 19, 2016)

catcharay said:


> Ah, thank you. I think 4 x per year would be worth it rather than regular psychological sessions (economical too). It is very scary with hallucinogens, I could only imagine it likened to a horror filled dream but you don't have the faculty to control or escape it if you're that unstable type. For me, I would be doing 75 max and no more if I had the means.
> 
> (OP)
> There has been a lot of suggestions to starters, especially (from reading) that antipsychotics-mainly and benzos can kill it in case you get deeply wayward into a state of paranoia/panic. One suggested dose for starters was 150ug which I think is excessive.


I know right it's scary, it's like a nightmare that you can't wake up from and then the fear just keeps building upon itself. I never believed in bad trips until I had one. It's a risk because if it happens to a fragile person they may experience PTSD and psychological damage. That's why it's good to have benzos and antipsychotics on hand. Just knowing you have them can ease your anxiety. My last trip was a bad trip and I coped out and took some benzos and antipsychotics and it made all the difference, it stopped it so I could calm down. That's why I don't use LSD anymore after that trip, I've gotten what I need from it and I have no desire to go back.

But psychedelics in general are almost a required experience in seeing what it means to be human. They can bring about such a profound change of mind, allowing you to escape from the prison that is your mind and give you an insight into how you enslave yourself to your mind and its thoughts. It's these insights that nothing else can give you besides psychedelics, no doctor or therapist can offer you these kind of insights because it's your lived experience so all of the insights are relevant to your life and how you live it. It also gives you a connection to the greater world, a new connection with nature and its harmony, an experience so beautiful it'll bring tears. But that's why it's best used sparingly, don't rely on the drug, instead work with it and use those few hours you have with it to really get down to the deep stuff. Use those hours wisely and even just one experience could turn you into a different person, a new person. It's an escape from the matrix, once you see you can't unsee, you just need to be prepared to travel deep into the journey of yourself.

@*Tuan Jie* How was your ibogaine experience? I'm terrified to try it, but I've read it works wonders for addicts. I'm surprised you didn't get anything out of it.


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## forever in flux (Nov 26, 2016)

I'd tread carefully as hallucinogens could make things much worse.

Make sure you have plenty of fast-acting benzos nearby so you can mitigate a bad trip.


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

Thank you very much people! 
@ManInAShed I took ibogaine when I hit rock bottom. I can't recall the dosage, but it sure had an effect on me. Time got distorted and I felt feverish and sick. Throwing up all the time. I've been in bed for about three days and felt like an old man when I finally stumbled out of it. 
What happened to me emotionally was a continuation of the state I was in at the time. I can't tell for sure if it was the iboga or just that. I believe it was the latter. I'd broke up with my girlfriend some months before and had been struggling hard to keep on living. The feelings of loss, grief, loneliness, worthlessness, hopelessness were so intense, also before the iboga, I could have never imagined possible before. And I had my share of that before, I guarantee. It was so oppressive, that I felt like I was going to choke in it. It was all that existed and ever would exist. I couldn't bear it. I even asked the lady that was keeping an eye on me to stay in the room for some time when she came to check on me. Me, who always always always wanted to be alone. In the end I didn't have any particular insights or an alternative view on myself and my life. I was looking for a way to reach the heart of it all within me, but I felt I didn't get there. Perhaps I did. I'm convinced the feelings I tried to describe above are one and the same thing, and they remain the core of my issues. If I had to sum it up, I'd say it's a lack of love.

I recently went to two months of this again. It took me completely by surprise. My ex contacted me after ten years and I fell into this bottomless pit again. There are no words for it. I just can't live with it. I can't go on like this. Something needs to happen. No conventional approach is going to help me enough, I'm sure. It's like you say, there is no other way to bring about another way of experiencing. I'm scared to have a bad trip and I'm glad there are some counter measures known for it. I can understand it can leave you with PTSD. I may have some form of it already, just from life experiences. I've come to the point where I feel I don't have much to loose anymore but I'm not reckless. I'm going to do my homework, like I also did with iboga, and talk to people about it as much as I can. Again, thank you for sharing!


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## catcharay (Sep 15, 2011)

ManInAShed said:


> I know right it's scary, it's like a nightmare that you can't wake up from and then the fear just keeps building upon itself. I never believed in bad trips until I had one. It's a risk because if it happens to a fragile person they may experience PTSD and psychological damage. That's why it's good to have benzos and antipsychotics on hand. Just knowing you have them can ease your anxiety. My last trip was a bad trip and I coped out and took some benzos and antipsychotics and it made all the difference, it stopped it so I could calm down. That's why I don't use LSD anymore after that trip, I've gotten what I need from it and I have no desire to go back.
> 
> But psychedelics in general are almost a required experience in seeing what it means to be human. They can bring about such a profound change of mind, allowing you to escape from the prison that is your mind and give you an insight into how you enslave yourself to your mind and its thoughts. It's these insights that nothing else can give you besides psychedelics, no doctor or therapist can offer you these kind of insights because it's your lived experience so all of the insights are relevant to your life and how you live it. It also gives you a connection to the greater world, a new connection with nature and its harmony, an experience so beautiful it'll bring tears. But that's why it's best used sparingly, don't rely on the drug, instead work with it and use those few hours you have with it to really get down to the deep stuff. Use those hours wisely and even just one experience could turn you into a different person, a new person. It's an escape from the matrix, once you see you can't unsee, you just need to be prepared to travel deep into the journey of yourself.
> 
> @*Tuan Jie* How was your ibogaine experience? I'm terrified to try it, but I've read it works wonders for addicts. I'm surprised you didn't get anything out of it.


Yeah I think you summed up best when you noted it should be treated with respect to get the benefit without misuse/overuse. It's better than any pharma drug to alleviate depression in my opinion, it's derived from nature. The illicit nature means people don't even get that chance..soon hopefully.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

This sounds like a real bad idea.


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## Yer Blues (Jul 31, 2013)

WillYouStopDave said:


> This sounds like a real bad idea.


Since when is becoming the Lizard King(or Queen) a bad idea? You're royalty, what could go wrong?


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)




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## sad1231234 (Jul 10, 2016)

Lsd and magic mushrooms can mess up your brain


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

@sad1231234 Two recent clinical trials suggest the opposite is possible, ain't that great news!? The results are very promising. I find hope in it. Rosalind Watts, the lady in the video above, is a member of the John Hopkins University research team. See link below.

New York Times article (Easy read): A Dose of a Hallucinogen From a 'Magic Mushroom,' and Then Lasting Peace

The actual studies:

Johns Hopkins University:
Psilocybin produces substantial and sustained decreases in depression and anxiety in patients with life-threatening cancer: A randomized double-blind trial

New York University:
Rapid and sustained symptom reduction following psilocybin treatment for anxiety and depression in patients with life-threatening cancer: a randomized controlled trial


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## rockyraccoon (Dec 13, 2010)

In my early teens I did LSD regularly for about 2 years and it was the greatest thing in the world. But then I had a bad trip and my life was forever changed for the worse. I stopped using LSD after that bad trip. All my mental health issues can be traced right back to that bad trip. I was actually hallucinating for years after that bad trip; it was as if the LSD never left my brain. I had mild anxiety before the bad trip but since then it completely amplified my anxiety, caused insomnia, panic attacks, suicidal behavior, and OCD.


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

@rockyraccoon That's been a very expensive mistake! I've once met a guy in therapy who had a similar experience. LSD/hallucinogens are not to be taken lightly, especially for those with mental health issues. I hope you'll one day recover from it.

The reason why the initial research into treating mental health patients with hallucinogens stopped, was because hippies started to use it as a party drug. There's much more to it than the bad rep these drugs got because of it. It took more than half a decade for science to finally pick up the research where it had hastily been abandoned due to the end of funding. And this is exactly where it belongs, in the hands of scientists. I'm glad there are some who dare to go against popular belief and refuse to throw away the baby with the bathwater.


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## sad1231234 (Jul 10, 2016)

I personally know someone who almost died on mushrooms. Good luck if you want to blow your brains out.


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## SuperMetroid (Nov 17, 2016)

Tuan Jie said:


> The reason why the initial research into treating mental health patients with hallucinogens stopped, was because hippies started to use it as a party drug. There's much more to it than the bad rep these drugs got because of it. It took more than half a decade for science to finally pick up the research where it had hastily been abandoned due to the end of funding. And this is exactly where it belongs, in the hands of scientists. I'm glad there are some who dare to go against popular belief and refuse to throw away the baby with the bathwater.


Yup. I assume you've seen _Neurons to Nirvana_? If not, I highly recommend it.

When LSD and and psilocybin were discovered, it was considered a huge breakthrough that was going to revolutionize the fields of science and medicine. Ironically, it essentially was them making people too peaceful and introspective, making them less likely to want to join the army, that got them banned. The government got too freaked out and decided to make them illegal and halt all research on them.

The crazy fact is that micro-doses of psilocybin mushrooms and LSD is one of the most quick, long-lasting and overall effective means of combating mental ailments such as anxiety and depression; studies confirm this. Anyone who thinks these drugs were banned because 'they're bad' need to watch the documentary _Neurons to Nirvana_, a doc which I guarantee you'll find to be an eye opener. I also recommend you read up on the latest research on psilocybin.


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

@sad1231234 There's a big difference between taking hallucinogens and hallucinogen *therapy*.


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## jealousisjelly (Feb 22, 2011)

CrystalGemPearl said:


> Does Las Vegas have good places to obtain them?


The internets has something very similar... I'd say it counts, It's basically the same thing.


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## jealousisjelly (Feb 22, 2011)

sad1231234 said:


> I personally know someone who almost died on mushrooms. Good luck if you want to blow your brains out.


Was he a young *** teen kid like you? Immature and had no idea what he was doing, just wanted to try something that he wasn't ready for?

There are plenty of studies about mushrooms being used for therapy with positive results.


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## jealousisjelly (Feb 22, 2011)

WillYouStopDave said:


> This sounds like a real bad idea.


Hw so? What are you basing this on? Apparently not on any scientific studies, or experience with LSD. I tried LSD a few times and was always happy as ****.


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## jealousisjelly (Feb 22, 2011)

rockyraccoon said:


> In my early teens I did LSD regularly for about 2 years and it was the greatest thing in the world. But then I had a bad trip and my life was forever changed for the worse. I stopped using LSD after that bad trip. All my mental health issues can be traced right back to that bad trip. I was actually hallucinating for years after that bad trip; it was as if the LSD never left my brain. I had mild anxiety before the bad trip but since then it completely amplified my anxiety, caused insomnia, panic attacks, suicidal behavior, and OCD.


You were young, immature and abused it.


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## rockyraccoon (Dec 13, 2010)

jealousisjelly said:


> Hw so? What are you basing this on? Apparently not on any scientific studies, or experience with LSD. I tried LSD a few times and was always happy as ****.


Wait until you have a bad trip; you won't go near that **** again.



jealousisjelly said:


> You were young, immature and abused it.


Irregardless, I am still informing users or potential users the risks associated with LSD use.


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## sad1231234 (Jul 10, 2016)

jealousisjelly said:


> Was he a young *** teen kid like you? Immature and had no idea what he was doing, just wanted to try something that he wasn't ready for?
> 
> There are plenty of studies about mushrooms being used for therapy with positive results.


Oh give me some etizolam will you?


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Tried some peyote 4 years ago. 


Definitely an "after-glow". Resets your brain. Makes your brain unresponsive to any other drug. 



I'd probably recommend a go every year or two.


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

forever in flux said:


> I'd tread carefully as hallucinogens could make things much worse.
> 
> .


^^ this,
I knew lots of people who self medicated and ended up in the psych hospital. Several of them killed people after the self medication. And one guy cut his dick of then flushed it down the toilet.


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

jealousisjelly said:


> Was he a young *** teen kid like you? Immature and had no idea what he was doing, just wanted to try something that he wasn't ready for?
> 
> There are plenty of studies about mushrooms being used for therapy with positive results.


Cite them then.
I see this small study with only 12 people:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed...om-ingredient-tested-as-depression-treatment/
*Magic mushroom ingredient tested as depression treatment*

Wed, 18 May 2016 12:33:00 EST
"Magic mushrooms 'promising' in depression," BBC News reports. Magic mushrooms is an umbrella term for fungi that contain psilocybin, a psychoactive substance that can cause intense LSD-like hallucinations, as well as reported feelings of euphoria and "spiritual insight".
Researchers gave two doses of psilocybin to 12 volunteers, all of whom had moderate or severe depression that had not responded to other treatment. As this drug is controlled in the UK, permission from the Home Office was needed for the study, and the participants were closely monitored by psychiatrists. 
The intention was to monitor the "intensity" of the experience, as reported by the volunteers, to see if it was feasible to use psilocybin to treat people with severe depression. The researchers also wanted to get an initial impression of its effects. 
They found the 12 volunteers tolerated the drug, with minor side effects that did not last long. Eight of them had no symptoms of depression one week after treatment, and five were free from depression after three months. 
But because of the type of study this is and its small size, we can't be sure if these results are the result of psilocybin. 
The researchers warn that people should not try to treat themselves with mushrooms that contain psilocybin. Aside from their unpredictable effects, magic mushrooms are class A drugs that are illegal to possess - which can carry a seven-year jail sentence - or distribute, which can result in up to life imprisonment.
*Where did the story come from?*

The study was carried out by researchers from Imperial College London, South London and Maudsley NHS Trust, King's College London, University College London, the Royal London Hospital, and the Beckley Foundation.
It was funded by the Medical Research Council. 
The study was published in the peer-reviewed journal The Lancet: Psychiatry on an open-access basis, so it's free to read online.
While overall the UK media reporting was accurate, The Sun newspaper wins the most inappropriate headline of the month award (and is currently a leading contender for 2016). 
Their headline, "Magic mushrooms make you a fun guy", manages to both trivialise the life-limiting and often horrible impact severe depression can have, while simplifying the complex results of this study.
The Sun also used a stock photo of a classic twentysomething cheesy raver with the caption: "Professor Nutt, who worked on the study, was previously sacked as the Government's chief drug adviser in 2009". The distinguished 65-year-old psychiatrist may be a little put out (or possibly amused) by this.
The Daily Mail was also overenthusiastic in its reporting, saying that "Hundreds of thousands of people could benefit from antidepressants derived from magic mushrooms", despite the limited nature of the study. 
However, both The Guardian and The Independent give a more measured account of the study and its limitations.
*What kind of research was this?*

This was an open-label feasibility study designed to test whether the drug psilocybin could be safely given to selected patients with depression, alongside psychological support. 
Everyone in the study took the drug, meaning there was no comparison group and everyone knew that they were taking the drug. 
That said, it is hard to imagine what could serve as a placebo for a drug (psilocybin) notorious for its hallucinogenic properties. 
This type of early-stage trial cannot give us reliable information on efficacy - nor is it set up to do so. 
Even if such a trial suggests possible effectiveness, it's hard to be sure whether the results are truly down to the drug or whether they could reflect an "expectation" effect, where people immediately felt better because that is what they expected.
*What did the research involve?*

Researchers publicised their study, saying they wanted to recruit people with depression that had not responded to other treatments to test psilocybin. Only 12 of the 72 volunteers met the study requirements. 
After physical and mental health tests - including checks to make sure the volunteers were not at high risk of psychosis - they were given two doses of psilocybin in hospital, one week apart.
The first was a low dose to check for unexpected reactions, while the second was a high dose aimed at treating depression. The day after treatment, people were asked about their experiences, including the intensity of psychedelic effects (on a scale of 0 to 1) and any unpleasant effects. 
Everyone was followed up regularly, by telephone or email, from the day after the high-dose treatment until three months afterwards. Participants filled in questionnaires designed to monitor depression symptoms. 
Researchers compared depression scores from before the study began, one week after treatment, and three months after treatment.


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

*What were the basic results?*

On average, people rated the intensity of the experience as 0.5 for the low-dose and 0.75 for the high-dose treatment. Psychedelic effects typically appeared from 30 to 60 minutes after taking the dose, peaked after two to three hours, and were no longer detectable after six hours. 
Nobody had to be sedated during the treatment. The main side effects were feeling anxious (which happened to everyone), confusion, nausea and headache. None of these side effects lasted. Average depression scores decreased at one week and remained lower at three months.
Because the study is so small, it may be more useful to look at what happened to the individuals, rather than average depression scores. 
After one week, eight people responded to the medicine with reduced depression scores of at least half their previous score, suggesting a big improvement. Seven of them fell into the range that suggested they no longer had depression. 
However, *most people's depression scores increased over the next three months, and only five of the original 12 volunteers were still free from depression at the end of the study. *
At the end of the study, six people had mild or moderate depression, and one person once again had severe depression. 
*How did the researchers interpret the results?*

The researchers said that: "Done with appropriate safeguards, [such as careful screening and therapeutic support] psilocybin can be safely administered" to patients with depression. 
*They admitted that the study design means "strong inferences cannot be made about the treatment's therapeutic efficacy" - in other words, we can't be sure that it worked. *They went on to say that: "The data do suggest that further research is warranted". 
They pointed out that it is rare for people with severe depression to recover spontaneously without treatment, and most of their participants had lived with depression for many years. 
They have called for a bigger randomised controlled trial to properly assess how well this treatment works.
*Conclusion*

Depression is a disabling disease that affects many people in the UK. While antidepressants and therapy work for many people, some people don't fully respond to treatment. 
A treatment for depression that uses a drug that works in a different way from existing antidepressants could be very helpful. 
Having said that, *this study doesn't tell us whether psilocybin is a useful drug for treating depression. This was a very small, early-stage trial that only aimed to see whether the drug was safe and has potential for use - the researchers did not set out to see if the drug is effective for treating severe depression. *
Here are some points to consider:


Ten of the recruits had referred themselves, rather than being referred by a doctor. This means they actively sought out treatment with psilocybin. Interestingly, five of the 12 had taken psilocybin before, which may mean they joined the study because they already thought the treatment worked for them.
There was no control group and no placebo - everyone was given the treatment and knew they were taking the treatment. This means we don't know whether the treatment itself or another factor, such as the intensive therapeutic support from psychiatrists, might have caused the improved depression scores.
The chart showing the depression scores for each individual shows that most people (not everyone) had a big initial drop in depression scores by one week after treatment, followed in many cases by a fairly sharp upswing in scores after that. This could mean that the experience of having the treatment has a short-term effect that wears off fairly quickly for most people.
Researchers and funders will review the results of the study and decide whether to build on this with a large randomised controlled trial. 
This would give us a better indication of whether this treatment could work for people with depression who are not helped by current treatments - and, most importantly, whether it's safe for use. 
The researchers warn that people should not try to treat themselves with mushrooms that contain psilocybin. Aside from their unpredictable effects, magic mushrooms are class A drugs that are illegal to possess or distribute.
We imagine that because of the ongoing political controversies around psychoactive drugs like psilocybin, ketamine and MDMA being used to treat mental health conditions, a larger follow-up phase II trial is not guaranteed to take place.


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

Didn't know there was so much going on in this thread lately... Thanks for all your contributions. I'll read up later.

I talked to my psychiatrist about this and told him I wouldn't have to think twice if I'd get the chance to volunteer in a trial. He doesn't know much about it, but he promised me to talk to his colleagues about it. Not long after he mailed me a trial with psyloscibine may start not far from where I live in the near future. He couldn't tell me much more about it because he officially doesn't know yet and it's not certain if it'll take place at all. I hardly dare to hope, but I'd be more than grateful to get what could be the chance of a lifetime.

Recently there has been a massive conference on the subject, organized by MAPS and the Beckley Foundation. A whopping 120 video's about it have been released and are freely available on 



. I haven't watched them all, off course, but I get the impression this cat has gotten out of the bag and won't be tabooed back into it anymore. It's about bloody time science gets it's well deserved chance to properly determine the therapeutic potential and/or dangers of the whole gamma of demonized/abused substances in question. If the jaw dropping results of some preliminary studies can be replicated in significant numbers, some people in this field are going to get a Nobel Prize.


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## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

I've heard that one of the things about acid is there's like a curtain in your brain between the subconscious and the conscious mind and when you take acid it peels back the curtain, so you can become much more in tune with what's going on in your mind. I'd like to experiment with acid but my brain is too volatile I can barely handle too much weed. I took acid a few times when I was younger only couple of times had any effect, the last time i took it was a bit of bad trip, i freaked out a bit but not massively compared to some panic attacks i've had in past when high from pot.

Its one of my many regrets about my life, I would love to be like Ken Kesey the 60s acid head / writer who took huge amounts of it in the quest for self knowledge and psychological experimentation. That would be so much fun and so liberating, but my mind is way too unstable and prone to anxiety to be able to handle it. I remember reading a book that my mate had on drugs and it was written in the 1950s I think and it was written by these intellectual scientist types who were experimenting on themselves with hallucinogens like LSD and peyote, their experiences sounded fascinating.

Recreational drugs can be dangerous things, but they also be wonderful and life changing as well. I think with harder drugs though it can be a bit like playing russian roulette sometimes.


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## feels (Jun 18, 2010)

Had a friend who only did acid once and it took away a lot of his anxiety permanently.

The first time I did acid it made me feel the most hopeless I've ever felt in my life and I was anxious as **** for two weeks following the trip. 

It's a tricky thing lol.


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## bottleofblues (Aug 6, 2008)

rockyraccoon said:


> In my early teens I did LSD regularly for about 2 years and it was the greatest thing in the world. But then I had a bad trip and my life was forever changed for the worse. I stopped using LSD after that bad trip. All my mental health issues can be traced right back to that bad trip. I was actually hallucinating for years after that bad trip; it was as if the LSD never left my brain. I had mild anxiety before the bad trip but since then it completely amplified my anxiety, caused insomnia, panic attacks, suicidal behavior, and OCD.


Sounds terrible man, I had slightly similar situation for me where my many psychological problems started not long after I started smoking pot regularly as a teen. Young minds are still growing and developing so putting these drugs into them can throw a spanner in the works (to put in rather mildly). That's the thing with drugs like pot and acid, for most its like hey what's the big deal just a bit of fun and it is but for every 1000 or so that take them you might get 1 that has a volatile brain and you throw some strong drugs into it it can wreak havoc sometimes permanent.


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

@SuperMetroid
Sorry for my late reply, but thank you for sharing. I haven't seen the documentary, but I've downloaded it and I will watch it. I've seen a couple of other items and documentaries. So far, I didn't look much into micro-dosing, but it keeps popping up on my radar from time to time. Although the high dose treatments are not a silver bullet, they appeal more to me because they seem to bring about lasting change in perception. But I'm also interested in micro-dosing. _A Really Good Day _by_ Ayelet Waldman _is on my list of books to read.

@VanDamMan
I don't know the slightest thing about peyote, but what you shared sounds like what I've heard about other substances that are currently researched. For convenience sake, I'm just going to treat psychoactives as a group here. Perhaps you can shed some light on a question I've had for some time. It seems like there is a long lasting effect if you take, for instance, a high dose of psiloscybin. Someone in this thread replied earlier that you'll be back in the same default a long time later. The effect wears off, so to say. What I think would be optimal, is to use the altered state of mind while it lasts, to bring about as much change in your life as you can. I haven't come across anything in this regards, so I'm curious if you have been able to distill some lessons from your experience in this regard. In other words, what would be the right thing to do after the treatment/experience? Is it possible at all to make the change last?


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Tuan Jie said:


> @VanDamMan
> I don't know the slightest thing about peyote, but what you shared sounds like what I've heard about other substances that are currently researched. For convenience sake, I'm just going to treat psychoactives as a group here. Perhaps you can shed some light on a question I've had for some time. It seems like there is a long lasting effect if you take, for instance, a high dose of psiloscybin. Someone in this thread replied earlier that you'll be back in the same default a long time later. The effect wears off, so to say. What I think would be optimal, is to use the altered state of mind while it lasts, to bring about as much change in your life as you can. I haven't come across anything in this regards, so I'm curious if you have been able to distill some lessons from your experience in this regard. In other words, what would be the right thing to do after the treatment/experience? Is it possible at all to make the change last?


2 parts.

First part is the physical effect. The "after-glow" can last 3-8 weeks afterward. It gradually dissipates. A lot of alcoholics and drug addicts find it much more useful than any current medication in pharmacies.

2nd part is the emotional. They say when you take peyote, you should think about any long term issues you have. Hopefully after the peyote has worn off, you're still left with the emotional insights you had that were holding you down. But yeah probably is similar to other psychedelics.


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## twitchy666 (Apr 21, 2013)

*lovely brightening experience at school*

felt like being pre-school age again
making everyone laugh. sharing it
it upped my social abilities

important for any music events

medicine for the soul


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

Just found a related thread on SAS from @Beanybean called *Had great Experiences with high doses of Psilocybin.*


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

@VanDamMan
Thank you. Sounds indeed very much like what I've come across so far. That's basically have an intent, but let go and be open to the experience.

@twitchy666
At school he says  Quite an out of the box education, I guess?

@bottleofblues 
Same here. Consciousness in general fascinates me. If I weren't as damaged emotionally I would probably have tried a bunch by now. It's a risky thing for us, I think. And potentially a new type of medication/treatment. And there's where it becomes really interesting.

@feels
Yeah, I'm starting to see a pattern here. Psychedelics seem to have great healing potential but can be also very destructive. It's a pity some find out the hard way. I hope you won't be one of them.


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## Canadian Brotha (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm curious about this myself. A lot of cultures have a history of use of hallucinogens in controlled settings i.e. an elder of the community guides the process for some sort of spiritual awakening/enlightenment and this sort of seems like a form of return to that by micro dosing as opposed to pushing for a hardcore trip. I'd like to try it at some point because I've already tried anti-depressants and contrary to their name they can actually make you even more unstable and the withdrawals when you stop abruptly are quite unsettling as well


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

Tried this a few months ago when I was very suicidal and having chronic insomnia. Only had a short window of experiencing it before I fell asleep. It did seem to have taken the edge off for awhile... thinking of trying again..


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## RockmanJL9981 (Aug 23, 2012)

no this is a very barbaric form of treatment and should only be used as last resort if ur ever in a situation facing capital punishment


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Oddly enough, I started doing research on psychedelic therapy today and then this thread popped up in Recent Discussions. Reading some Stanislav Grof right now.


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## mrzpete (Aug 12, 2017)

Micro-dosing psilocybe mushrooms works wonders. Sometimes you catch yourself smiling for no reason.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

This is my favorite type of therapy. I have tripped on quite a few different hallucinogens. Sometimes for fun, sometimes to have a psychological breakthrough. Just recently they helped me find closure from my last relationship (thus the username).

It is sometimes scary and psychologically dangerous though. If you use too much and have ego death too suddenly, it might take a while to recover from it. Micro-dosing is nice, but try to keep in mind that there is more that it can do for you if you are ready to have your worldview questioned, by your inner self.

I would recommend shrooms over LSD. They're not quite as harsh. I took too much LSD once and started seeing spiders crawling all over my friend's garage and started to panic. So I left and went home. I ended up watching Platoon on this tiny 8 inch TV. I remember feeling like I was a giant looking down into another 8 inch world. I had a very numb feeling towards the movie as well. Usually it brings up a lot of emotion.

Always make sure you have some alcohol or benzos on hand in case you feel like you've really gone too far. Sometimes it's better to just ride out the anxiety, but you will know if you can't take it anymore.

If you've had any trauma in your life, especially childhood trauma, you can expect it to surface during the trip.


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## mrzpete (Aug 12, 2017)

Taking too much of that stuff is hit or miss, the trip depends on so many outside factors. Had a few not so good experiences but that was because of not respecting them and taking way more than I thought I was prepared for. Small doses are surprisingly therapeutic. It's like a eraser going over the cobwebs of conditioned thoughts and perceptions. Listening to Alan Watts discourses doesn't hurt.


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## forgetmylife (Oct 1, 2011)

Tuan Jie said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> 
> It is off course not something to take lightly. I'm actually referring to a form of treatment, carried out in a controlled and safe environment with therapists. It has been a taboo for decades, but more scientific research has been carried out in the last years. I read about trials with promising results for the treatment of anxiety/depression. Something scientists were researching before the hippies destroyed everything.
> From what I've seen and heard so far, I understand an LSD trip for instance, can enable you to view yourself and your history from such a different perspective that it can profoundly impact your life from then on. I imagine the feeling of connectedness and the realization that everything is one could be beneficial for someone who's life is destroyed by SA.
> ...


MDMA is what you want for a therapy session... no bad trips on MDMA either (unless you did a wild overdose)

more empathy, less psychedelic, openess, talkative mood... take between 120-200 mg at once, then wait at least 2-3 months before you decide to take it again (if you feel the need to do it again)

having a trained therapist who you are reasonably comfortable with may be necessary for a long-term productive experience though


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

forgetmylife said:


> MDMA is what you want for a therapy session... no bad trips on MDMA either (unless you did a wild overdose)
> 
> more empathy, less psychedelic, openess, talkative mood... take between 120-200 mg at once, then wait at least 2-3 months before you decide to take it again (if you feel the need to do it again)
> 
> having a trained therapist who you are reasonably comfortable with may be necessary for a long-term productive experience though


I've never really been able to feel anything from pure MDMA, only when it was mixed with something stronger like a narcotic. I wonder if anyone else has experienced this. Maybe I didn't take enough, but I was taking the recommended dosage. Even doubled it after having no effect other than paranoia the next day. I am usually very sensitive to drugs.


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## Erroll (Jan 18, 2016)

@Tuan Jie
Here is a link to a very recent article on the subject.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-08-ego-dissolving-psychedelic-drugs-mental-health.html

I was struck by the similarity of the drug effects, to the goals in Buddhism, where the "self" is seen as the source of Dukkha (suffering) and the goal is to escape the "self". From my own examination of consciousness, it seems that the idea of a "self" is, in fact, a persistent illusion. Maybe the true "self" is at the universe level, and we are but neurons in a universal brain. It strikes me that I may sound like I slice mushrooms on my breakfast cereal, but I've never tried the stuff.

Interestingly, though, we once took our son to a homeopath for his anxiety problems, and were prescribed micro-doses of some kind of mushroom. His health was delicate though, so we stopped seeing the homeopath and went with a more acceptable cognitive therapy approach to his problems.


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## forgetmylife (Oct 1, 2011)

finallyclosed said:


> I've never really been able to feel anything from pure MDMA, only when it was mixed with something stronger like a narcotic. I wonder if anyone else has experienced this. Maybe I didn't take enough, but I was taking the recommended dosage. Even doubled it after having no effect other than paranoia the next day. I am usually very sensitive to drugs.


Either under-dosed or it wasn't MDMA. MDMA high is unmistakeable. Did you test it? Even if you have a powder that tests positive, that doesn't mean it's not cut. Antidepressants and other similar medication will block its effects.

Take a 200-250mg dose and you'll feel it...


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

forgetmylife said:


> Either under-dosed or it wasn't MDMA. MDMA high is unmistakeable. Did you test it? Even if you have a powder that tests positive, that doesn't mean it's not cut. Antidepressants and other similar medication will block its effects.
> 
> Take a 200-250mg dose and you'll feel it...


That's how much I took (200mg), and it was from the most reputable source possible at the time other than prescription. It was definitely pure too.

I did feel something from taking a couple "purple buddha" pills from off the street, but I'm guessing those are cut with heroin, because that's mostly what it felt like.

Maybe there is something wrong with the part of my brain that processes it. Probably should have taken way more.


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## forgetmylife (Oct 1, 2011)

finallyclosed said:


> That's how much I took (200mg), and it was from the most reputable source possible at the time other than prescription. It was definitely pure too.
> 
> I did feel something from taking a couple "purple buddha" pills from off the street, but I'm guessing those are cut with heroin, because that's mostly what it felt like.
> 
> Maybe there is something wrong with the part of my brain that processes it. Probably should have taken way more.


I don't believe it's possible to get an MDMA prescription, at least not in the United States. It is being studied though for very specific cases of trauma and PTSD etc. for use with a therapist.

There's no way to guarantee a substance unless it has been tested with multiple reagents, and even then it is not guaranteed. I remember seeing a study where something like 50% of all ecstacy pills being sold on the street in the UK didn't even contain MDMA... And getting a positive reaction on multiple reagent tests tells you nothing about the purity of a powder or dosage of a pill. It's been some years, but from what I can remember, to get the exact mg dosage of what you are taking requires an acetone wash. It is a popular misconception that powder = pure or that MDMA powders can't be cut...

You won't find $20 ecstasy pills cut with heroin lol. Dealing drugs is a business model. Heroin is a very scarce drug and is worth 2x more on the street than pure gold gram for gram... Maybe some kind of very cheap very weak opioid, but still I have never really seen an ecstasy pill that was cut with opioids... It's very rare. If they are cut, they are more often than not cut with caffeine, amphetamines, etc. but like I said, a decent amount of them don't even contain MDMA at all which is the magic substance itself.

Of the few pills that do actually contain MDMA on the street, they are usually dosed pretty weak, but you never know and that's what's scary. If you aren't testing your pills, then most likely you don't have MDMA... There are thousands of research substances (or even things like caffeine, piperazine, and small doses of meth) that are passed off as MDMA because they feel "similar". Open up any drug testing website database and you'll be surprised to find what is actually inside of your "MDMA" pill...


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

forgetmylife said:


> I don't believe it's possible to get an MDMA prescription, at least not in the United States. It is being studied though for very specific cases of trauma and PTSD etc. for use with a therapist.
> 
> There's no way to guarantee a substance unless it has been tested with multiple reagents, and even then it is not guaranteed. I remember seeing a study where something like 50% of all ecstacy pills being sold on the street in the UK didn't even contain MDMA... And getting a positive reaction on multiple reagent tests tells you nothing about the purity of a powder or dosage of a pill. It's been some years, but from what I can remember, to get the exact mg dosage of what you are taking requires an acetone wash. It is a popular misconception that powder = pure or that MDMA powders can't be cut...
> 
> ...


The pure stuff was (allegedly) from the most reputable seller on silk road before it was shut down. There was a reputation system similar to Amazon where it was impossible to sell fake or cut drugs for more than a couple of days without getting a bad rating.

The Purple Buddha pills were from someone in California who knew what they were doing. They had brown flecks in them that you could see. And they claimed it was heroin. I used to use heroin a little bit, and I recognized the feeling too.

I would be willing to bet they were both legit. This was back before those nasty research chemicals really hit the market. And I didn't really need to test it because I knew where it was coming from. I'm sure they could tell the difference between fake ecstasy and real ecstasy. The only people who can't haven't used it very much.

There was one other time, way before that when I was around 18 that I snorted half of a pill. I didn't really feel much then either. I can't imagine that all three times from good sources that long ago would be fake. And if they were fake, I would have felt something.

I don't think this is a common experience at all, but I have heard of it before.


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

@Canadian Brotha 
Indeed, the use of psychedelics is about as old as human kind. Modern societies often look down upon "primitive cultures" and these practices. Apart from that being pretty damn arrogant, I believe it's a big mistake and a missed opportunity to learn some valuable lessons. We've more or less reduced these very potent substances to something to consume, to enjoy like a drink, while "primitive cultures" have a healthy respect for it's potency and treat it accordingly as far as I'm aware. I like that you mention the use of it in a controlled setting and the guidance by elders. That didn't come about for no reason, as i believe these people are not dumber than you and I. It is bloody powerfull stuff and from what I understand from science, the controlled setting is a crucial ingredient for it to be benefical for a person. It requires a certain humbleness, a healthy dose of respect for it's power. Something many of us aren't quite accustomed to. I do think psychedelics are mostly used to bring about a "hardcore trip" though, as this is often perceived as a doorway through which you meet the Gods or a substance enabling your spirit to travel to other dimensions. I don't see that, or a secular varient of it, happening with micro dosing. But it makes sense to start out with that or to even stick with that. The less you need, the better.
@MadnessVertigo
Please share your experience with us!
I'm sorry to hear you've been at this low. Has it happened to you often? How are things for you now? Is this the reason you resorted to psychedelics? 
I've been dealing with suicidal tendencies of and on for twenty years now. I'm actually in it with one leg at the moment. In fact, the only thing I could come up with as a plausible answer to this condition during my second worst crises, just half a year ago, was psychedelic therapy. There is nothing else that I know of I can still believe in. Everything else has melted away as snow before the sun. It's all an illusion, just a bandaid on an open artery. I am not going to last as is. I'm afraid you know what I'm talking about. So I've promised myself I can't die before I've tried this. I'm aiming for actual treament, not self medication, but if it'll take too long and the despair is too high, I'll probably resort to alternative measures of bringing this about. I recently volunteered for a trial with ketamine at the univetrsity of Delft, but I didn't fit all their criteria. 
@RockmanJL9981
It wouldn't be my first choice of therapy for anybody just starting out, but "barbaric"? Apart from stories about drug use gone horribly wrong (so not the therapy I'm referring to in this thread) I haven't come across anything remotely fitting that description thus far. On the contrary, in fact. Do you have some sources you think I and others interested in this form of therapy should have a look at?
@truant
Please keep us posted on your findings, will you? Grof seems to be the grandfather of this thing. I haven't looked into his approach a great deal, but I do remember his name popping up when I was doing research prior to my ibogaine "treatment" and even before that when I was into primal therapy. His talk on psychedelic science 2017 didn't go down well with me though, because he started talking about past lives and such. No offence if that's your sort of thing, but it isn't credible for skeptics like myself. As great as his contribution and commitment to this field has been, I'm afraid the "esoteric" part isn't going to help pushing this forward and help it gain more interest and recognition from the scientific community at large. If his holotropic breathing technique (developed in a response to a complete cut of funding) can bring about similar states of mind I think it would be more elegant and the preffered way to go, but I doubt it's possible. 
@mrzpete
Would you like to share some more on your experiences? I'm all ear! Did you read _A Really Good Day_? If yes, do you think it correctly portrays the effects of micro dosing? So far I haven't looked into micro dosing much, but I'd greatly appreciate it if you could point me to some sources where I could learn more about it. 
Thank you for sharing some more. You are installing hope in me my friend!
@forgetmylife
Thank you! Would you care to elaborate on your expereince(s)?
@finallyclosed
Thanks for pitching in! How wonderful it has helped you to finally find closure from your last relationship. Which psychedelic helped you get to this point?
Psilocybine has popped up mostly on my radar as a drug for psychedelic treatment. I don't know the ins and outs, but I too got the impression it is somehow not as harsh as LSD, while not less potent.
I'm practically begging for my worldview to be questioned, even actively attemting to do so my self. But. I am me and I am limited by my own perception which I can't (profoundly) change by the power of my will. A great part of it has to do with childhood trauma and I'm convinced this is where I need to go during a trip. I'm also quite sure it's horrible beyond what I can bear and therefore potentially a catalyst for suicide. I'm reaching a point though, where I hardly have anything to lose. I think I haven't been more ready for this than I've ever been. It's not going to be me taking anything on my own, I can assure you that. It would be downright irresponsible. But If I have to resort to anything other than a session with professionals, it's good to know benzo's or alcohol can abate some of the anxiety. It can be too much at once, I imagine. The difficlulty with shrooms or anything else obtained from a questionable source is you never know the actual concentration of the active substance or if it's in there in the first place. It makes it quite hard get the correct dosage. And that's a big deal when it comes to these potent substances.
@Erroll
Thanks for the article! (I haven't read it yet).
Yes, the similarities are striking, aren't they? It becomes apparent the mind/the self is a prison when it becomes a source of perpetual suffering. It's horrible when no one is in charge there in that case, doesn't even exist there on a deeper level. That's how I often feel. It's nothing else than this brain producing this self and the suffering this self experiences. It seems deeply ingrained and virtually living it's own life. There's some great material I found that sheds some light on the perpetual nature of depression and perhaps on "mental disorders" in general. It also explains why the effects of various psychedelics on the human brain are so similar. It would be interesting to compare it to the effects of certain "Bhuddist" practices.


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## Yer Blues (Jul 31, 2013)

I guess the question I would ask is: how do you know it's working? You could be hallucinating?


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

Yer Blues said:


> I guess the question I would ask is: how do you know it's working? You could be hallucinating?


You know it's working when you realize it doesn't matter whether you are hallucinating or not, because the whole world is an illusion anyway.


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## Erroll (Jan 18, 2016)

@Erroll
It becomes apparent the mind/the self is a prison when it becomes a source of perpetual suffering. It's horrible when no one is in charge there in that case, doesn't even exist there on a deeper level. That's how I often feel. It's nothing else than this brain producing this self and the suffering this self experiences. [/QUOTE]

Really, what is a 'self'? I think what we call 'self' is a lifetime's worth of integrated experiences.

There is no 'you' or 'I'. There is only memories what these bodies have sensed; heard, seen, tasted, smelled or felt.

With each new experience, understanding comes, not from some ethereal self, but by reference to the sum total of all past similar experience.

Experience is interaction between us and the environment (we are environmental detection machines).

The environment is not our 'self'. And no 'self' area has ever been detected in the brain. Self is an illusion. Free choice is an illusion. The universe is deterministic. Our lifelines are embedded in the state diagram of a universe in motion. Douglas Hofstadter's book "I am a strange loop" talks about this as a self referencing loop.


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## mrzpete (Aug 12, 2017)

mrzpete said:


> Taking too much of that stuff is hit or miss, the trip depends on so many outside factors. Had a few not so good experiences but that was because of not respecting them and taking way more than I thought I was prepared for. Small doses are surprisingly therapeutic. It's like a eraser going over the cobwebs of conditioned thoughts and perceptions. Listening to Alan Watts discourses doesn't hurt.


 @Tuan Jie
[Edit] I should have pointed out that I was referring to psychedelic mushrooms. It's one of the few that you can safely take regularly.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Tuan Jie said:


> Please keep us posted on your findings, will you? Grof seems to be the grandfather of this thing. I haven't looked into his approach a great deal, but I do remember his name popping up when I was doing research prior to my ibogaine "treatment" and even before that when I was into primal therapy. His talk on psychedelic science 2017 didn't go down well with me though, because he started talking about past lives and such. No offence if that's your sort of thing, but it isn't credible for skeptics like myself. As great as his contribution and commitment to this field has been, I'm afraid the "esoteric" part isn't going to help pushing this forward and help it gain more interest and recognition from the scientific community at large. If his holotropic breathing technique (developed in a response to a complete cut of funding) can bring about similar states of mind I think it would be more elegant and the preffered way to go, but I doubt it's possible.


I don't think you're going to like Grof much, lol. I'm not an expert or anything, but I gather he was a skeptical "scientific materialist" when he started conducting his research and his views changed after observing his patients. He seems to think pretty much anything is possible now. Then again, he's also done a lot of drugs. 

I won't go into my own views about the nature of reality here. I started researching PT for a book, not for personal use. I've never had good experiences with drugs, personally. I had a psychotic episode last time I used them and won't touch anything stronger than alcohol now. Tbh, I don't understand how anyone can find them enjoyable, my experiences have been so unequivocally awful. Plus, schizophrenia runs in my family and I'd rather not play Russian roulette with that.


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

@Erroll
I quite like Metzinger's metaphor for the self as being a virtual organ, a means to gain an evolutionary advantage. It's one of the most brilliant ideas I've ever come across. The title of his book _Being No One_ quite humorously sums it up, if you ask me. Hofstadter seems to think along the same lines and there are many more.

Yet, an experiencer called Erroll has experiences. As we speak. That is just as real as the brain that produces both of them. It doesn't re-introduce mind-body dualism or agency. What I'm saying is that free will nor the self exist, except in daily life. The notion that we don't exist doesn't change anything about that. About the sense of self or it's experiences. That's what daily life feels like, or how it is experienced. And for the self, the experiencer, nothing else exists. I've never come close to experiencing not being, have you? Perhaps ego-death would do the trick.

What would happen if the self, which doesn't exist, fully believes it doesn't exist and that it's experiences don't exist either? Is that even possible? No self, no one there to believe anything. You need the self to be able to believe anything, right? So isn't believing you don't exist not even a greater illusion than believing you exist? The one that doesn't exist has to be "present" in order to believe in it's own non-existence. Oh boy, further down the rabbit hole. And I'm completely sober. Well, I?

Should I stop taking meds because I don't exist, my experience doesn't exist and therefore my depression is also an illusion? I don't think so, not for a second. We don't function on that level, do we? In a way, Metzinger's findings don't exist. They are of no importance, they don't make daily life any less real. I don't even have the choice to make them real for me. The "choices" this illusory self makes can result in this body ceizing to exist. That's real enough for me to take it very seriously. This sort of philosophy is all nice and dandy until you have a razor on your wrist or you find yourself standing on the roof of a high building. That, very real, possibility is the reason for this thread. I don't want to go there and it seems to me psychedelic therapy has great potential to help me not ending up there. Greater than anything else I'm aware of.

This I, this self called Tuan Jie, still experiences, it still suffers it's still in it's prison that he is himself. Everything he has experienced has propelled him towards looking into psychedelic therapy at this moment. That's how the double pendulum swung. Nothing else could have been the outcome of every previous experience combined. In essence, I agree with the universe being deterministic. Everything here is cause and effect. That includes the illusion of the self and the free will in all of us. So within that illusion (daily life) I'm seeking for ways to get from a highly undesirable state of being to a more desirable state of being. And I can add I'm doing my utmost here to let go of the notion that there is no free will, because I've noticed that it isn't helping me. That being the outcome of the double pendulum swing at this moment is quite funny in this regard, isn't it?

I've noticed that occupying my mind with "hard determinism" isn't helping me towards a more desirable state of being. I even think it feeds my tendancy towards depression because this line of thought reinforces the belief that I can't be anything else but depressed and that it's highly likely I will be indefinitely. What a depressing thought. Off course nothing else could have happened than me thinking along these lines, for some period of time, just like nothing else could have happened than me steering away from it now. I find myself shifting from making the distinction between what's real and what's not real to the distinction between what's beneficial and what's not beneficial for me. The same goes for determinism's cousin, reductionism. That's easier to tackle because there are more obvious flaws in that line of thought. A thing simply is quite often greater than the sum of all it's parts. Just because the self and it's experiences are produced by the brain doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm starting to see that belief is an even greater illusion, and sadly, one that feeds hopelessness and dispair. At least in my case.


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## Tuan Jie (Apr 6, 2017)

truant said:


> ...I'd rather not play Russian roulette with that.


 Amen to that! A high risk for schizophrenia to manifest is an exclusion criterium in all studies I've come across that go into some detail about these criteria. If memory serves me correctly, these criteria are still subject to change. I believe a researcher mentioned in a talk that bipolar was no longer a strict exclusion criterium i.e. more data suggests there is a possibility for people with bipolar to have a safe treatment in a controlled environment. It still all preliminary research though.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Tuan Jie said:


> What would happen if the self, which doesn't exist, fully believes it doesn't exist and that it's experiences don't exist either? Is that even possible? No self, no one there to believe anything. You need the self to be able to believe anything, right? So isn't believing you don't exist not even a greater illusion than believing you exist? The one that doesn't exist has to be "present" in order to believe in it's own non-existence. Oh boy, further down the rabbit hole. And I'm completely sober. Well, I?


You're forgetting that you don't have to be aware of yourself to be aware and conscious. That's the state most animals are in, and it's not uncommon for humans to be in that state as well. It's not unusual to be paying so much attention to some interesting event that you forget about yourself. The problem is really _self_-consciousness and lugging around a huge abstraction called Self (or ego) and thinking that that abstraction has some kind of real permanence it doesn't have. If you think (for example) that Tuan Jie "has" depression, then you will interpret all your experiences of yourself and the world through that filter; it creates a bias in your experience. "I have depression" is an interpretive model. Egos are problematic because they impose these mental filters (thoughts about yourself and the world) on experience and prevent you from perceiving the world in an undistorted fashion.

If you self-consciously think "I don't exist", and believe that you're currently non-existing while all the time identifying with your habitual Self and doing things like thinking about what you're going to have for dinner, then, yeah, that's a bit delusional, lol. But that doesn't mean that consciousness can't be unselfconsciously aware of non-existence the way an animal is unselfconsciously aware of their environment ... if you believe the enlightened masters, anyway.

If you look at your own awareness, you'll see that there's no actual separation between yourself and your environment in consciousness. That separation is an abstraction. There is no separation between myself and the sky I see through the window. That sky is part of my current conscious awareness and is as much a part of 'me' as my foot, my anxiety about my future, and everything else in my awareness. We can't control the sky; we can't look down on ourselves or other people from the perspective of the sky; but that doesn't mean there is a real separation. We simply use facts like our non-control over the sky as criteria when deciding whether the sky belongs in the "self" or "not self" category of our intellectual abstraction Self-World. The line, the categories -- those are purely conceptual.

Most people in our culture identify with their thoughts; they ARE their thoughts, because the ego is nothing but thoughts. We identify with our ego and impose this self/not-self filter on all our experiences. One of the first things you learn in most meditative practices is that you need to stop identifying with your thoughts so that you can see them as external to your true, inner self, which is formless. You learn to see your thoughts as being like the clouds in the sky -- as being something in conscious awareness, but outside your control. When you realize that your Self (ego) consists of nothing but these thoughts, then you are no longer identified with your ego and you exist as pure awareness; your ego still exists as a collection of thoughts about yourself, a mental construct, but it's just like the sky and the chair and your foot. It's an object of consciousness, but no longer identified with.

"Ego death" doesn't mean that you no longer have any consciousness; you are just unselfconsciously aware. If all the "phenomena" of experience stop manifesting (eg. as in dreamless sleep) then (in theory) you can be unselfconsciously aware of that state of non-phenomenal existence. But it won't be anything like your ordinary state of ego awareness. It will be unselfconscious awareness of nothing. Which may be a logical paradox, but logic only exists in the conceptual state. Which is why Zen masters sound so illogical!

Depression is a problem because the mind becomes preoccupied with thoughts about the self/world that lead to emotional pain. The "logic" of one's "predicament" as defined by the model we use to interpret our self and our world leads inevitably to a state of psychological discomfort, emotional pain, etc. Traditional psychotherapy tries to solve this problem by changing the ego and/or world model so that it no longer leads inevitably to painful states. Meditation solves the problem by dissolving the attachment one has to the models.


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## twitchy666 (Apr 21, 2013)

*Daffy Duck*

hofmann

microdot

gimme

life again, please

giggling like extraverts again


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

Tuan Jie said:


> Amen to that! A high risk for schizophrenia to manifest is an exclusion criterium in all studies I've come across that go into some detail about these criteria. If memory serves me correctly, these criteria are still subject to change. I believe a researcher mentioned in a talk that bipolar was no longer a strict exclusion criterium i.e. more data suggests there is a possibility for people with bipolar to have a safe treatment in a controlled environment. It still all preliminary research though.


I think alcohol has a better chance of manifesting schizophrenia, or even causing it, than hallucinogens. With a hallucinogen you go a little crazy until it wears off, then you are more sane than before you took it.


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## Gorgoroth9 (Jul 4, 2016)

I took psilocybin (can never remember how to spell it) to wonderful results. Even though they have worn off, I am forever grateful for the experience. Really hope more research is done, and assuming positive evidence to their effectiveness, they are made legal in some form or another.


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## Yer Blues (Jul 31, 2013)

Once you become the Lizard King you're cured. Something went wrong and I became the Lizard Queen?

I had my shrooms confiscated at a concert.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

Yer Blues said:


> Once you become the Lizard King you're cured. Something went wrong and I became the Lizard Queen?
> 
> I had my shrooms confiscated at a concert.


That's why you should take them right before you go inside. A guy broke his joint in half and gave it to me and my friends at a concert once. It made the concert way better and I was too distracted by the lights and music to feel any anxiety.


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## Yer Blues (Jul 31, 2013)

finallyclosed said:


> That's why you should take them right before you go inside. A guy broke his joint in half and gave it to me and my friends at a concert once. It made the concert way better and I was too distracted by the lights and music to feel any anxiety.


Oh, I had taken some already. I'll be buying more.


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## rabidfoxes (Apr 17, 2016)

I've never done high does of LSD (quarter of a tab maybe 3 times in my life, all good), but it does make you vulnerable and I would be worried about taking it when experiencing mental health distress. That is not to say that it doesn't have the potential to be effective.

However, heard great stuff about microdosing. If I did have depression, I would go for microdosing myself. It takes time to build up, but also seems less risky - and you don't actually experience hallucinations/intense trips. It's just important to do your research (as with everything), as LSD is highly potent and a 'microdose' is truly small. It's easy to take too much.

With MD I go for it 1-2 times a year (although haven't in the last 1.5 years) and I find that it results in a prolonged positive feeling + is helpful for my relationship. I would not recommend it as a 'weekend' drug by any means.

I know of people who've fried their brain on both LSD and MD, just like on anti-depressants, anti-psychotics and other legal, prescribed medication. Remember Paracelsus? It's the dose that makes the poison.


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## ManicXenophobe (Nov 8, 2013)

LSD works by getting in serotonin receptors and staying in them longer than serotonin does because of the molecular structure.


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## CTouln (Oct 26, 2017)

I really feel that this is not going to help in the long run :-(


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

CTouln said:


> I really feel that this is not going to help in the long run :-(


 This. I don't hallucinate. I don't think I want to start hallucinating. I especially don't like the thought that I might try it just for fun and never stop hallucinating.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

WillYouStopDave said:


> This. I don't hallucinate. I don't think I want to start hallucinating. I especially don't like the thought that I might try it just for fun and never stop hallucinating.


lol, where did you hear such a crazy story from? It's not possible to get stuck in a trip forever. It's something that idiot parents tell grade school kids to keep them from trying it and opening their minds. Because open minds are of the devil, of course. Damn hippies.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

CTouln said:


> I really feel that this is not going to help in the long run :-(


You feel wrong. This is exactly how it works - in the long run. It is scary as hell when you're on it, but the therapeutic psychological effects (the opposite of tripping/hallucinating) can last for up to a year, especially if it's done in combination with other therapy.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

finallyclosed said:


> lol, where did you hear such a crazy story from? It's not possible to get stuck in a trip forever. It's something that idiot parents tell grade school kids to keep them from trying it and opening their minds. Because open minds are of the devil, of course. Damn hippies.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

WillYouStopDave said:


>


He had schizophrenia. LSD doesn't cause it, it's genetic. I agree that you should probably avoid alcohol and any other drugs if you have schizophrenia though.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

finallyclosed said:


> He had schizophrenia. LSD doesn't cause it, it's genetic. I agree that you should probably avoid alcohol and any other drugs if you have schizophrenia though.


 I think you should avoid them if you already have enough problems. I've really never heard of anyone who already had problems getting better with frequent drug use. Whether it's the drug itself, addiction to it, social friction caused by other people giving you crap about using drugs, or paranoia caused by being worried about being caught.

At any rate, if you already have psychological issues, why take silly chances? If you ask me, many of the drugs that are actually prescribed for depression and SA seem to make many people even worse.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

WillYouStopDave said:


> I think you should avoid them if you already have enough problems. I've really never heard of anyone who already had problems getting better with frequent drug use. Whether it's the drug itself, addiction to it, social friction caused by other people giving you crap about using drugs, or paranoia caused by being worried about being caught.
> 
> At any rate, if you already have psychological issues, why take silly chances? If you ask me, many of the drugs that are actually prescribed for depression and SA seem to make many people even worse.


It is a miracle drug for PTSD and addiction though. All of the hallucinogens, even weed. I would have blown my brains out by now or died from a downer overdose if it weren't for a self hallucinogen/CBT therapy I came up with for my PTSD.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

@finallyclosed

Don't you think some of the **** you've taken, that you listed in this thread, led to you're stroke at 35? lol

I've taken LSD multiple times, many years ago. I never had a bad trip, but it did nothing for me.

Post trip I just felt grimy and spaced out, and just meh for a couple of days.

At the end of my drug experimentation, I was a scrawny, nervous weakling, and nothing more.

If youv'e got any sense people, don't risk experimenting with any drugs.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

There's a mailing list that sends news about clinical trials in this area:

http://www.maps.org/?pk_campaign=2017-11-Email-Media-NYT-OpEd&pk_kwd=top-logo


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

Pete Beale said:


> @*finallyclosed*
> 
> Don't you think some of the **** you've taken, that you listed in this thread, led to you're stroke at 35? lol
> 
> ...


Not hallucinogens, no. And my cardiologist thinks it's a genetic heart defect. My grandpa had the same thing. She did say that my past cocaine and alcohol use probably made it worse though. Since hallucinogens helped me quit doing all of that, other than occasional light drinking, then I would say that they were actually beneficial for my health.


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## naes (Nov 1, 2013)

Interesting thread.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Pete Beale said:


> @*finallyclosed*
> 
> I've taken LSD multiple times, many years ago. I never had a bad trip, but it did nothing for me.
> 
> Post trip I just felt grimy and spaced out, and just meh for a couple of days.


Did you at least not laugh your tits off for hours until it got painful?

Stumbled across some liberty caps the other day - used to go out for hours looking for them but no success, and when I dont want them, they appear in front of me !!


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

finallyclosed said:


> Not hallucinogens, no. And my cardiologist thinks it's a genetic heart defect. My grandpa had the same thing. She did say that my past cocaine and alcohol use probably made it worse though. Since hallucinogens helped me quit doing all of that, other than occasional light drinking, then I would say that they were actually beneficial for my health.


Well if taking LSD helps you quit doing other **** that's worse for you, then you gotta do what you gotta. lol



SFC01 said:


> Did you at least not laugh your tits off for hours until it got painful?
> 
> Stumbled across some liberty caps the other day - used to go out for hours looking for them but no success, and when I dont want them, they appear in front of me !!


Oh yes, I laughed for what seemed liked entire nights and well into dawn, until I formed a six pack on that ****. lol

It never did anything positive long term, open my mind, or any of that bollocks, and I've had some crazy good trips.

I did abuse drugs though. I once took LSD, E, Hash, booze and ****ing lighter fluid together, so maybe that's why I never received any positive effects. lol

All drugs ever did for me was make me jumpy as ****, like someone with PTSD, and feel like **** when I came down.

I'm not aware of any negative long term side effects of my 2 years of messing with drugs though, or any positives, and can't blame my SA etc on my drug faze I don't think.

I never tried shrooms btw. I spotted some massive, i believe edible mushrooms the other day which I wanted to fry, in Nottinghams Arboretum, but no doubt dogs and the locals had pissed all over em.  lol


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Pete Beale said:


> Well if taking LSD helps you quit doing other **** that's worse for you, then you gotta do what you gotta. lol
> 
> Oh yes, I laughed for what seemed liked entire nights and well into dawn, until I formed a six pack on that ****. lol
> 
> ...


Yeah I never got any benefits after taking LSD - I abused a lot more than 2 years so you should be ok. 7 E's, 2g of speed, some coke, weed, beer and LSD in one day - started with the beer at 11AM and ended Monday morning at work !!

I prefer shrooms as you can dose easy enough, and they only last the for a few hours, rather than what seems like an eternity on LSD. The comedown from shrooms is not that bad.

You just gotta find the right way to consume - we tried making a soup once with them, but then got stoned and forgot all about them so they were ruined, we just took the rest by rolling them up in balls and swallowing them as quick as possible.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

SFC01 said:


> Yeah I never got any benefits after taking LSD - I abused a lot more than 2 years so you should be ok. 7 E's, 2g of speed, some coke, weed, beer and LSD in one day - started with the beer at 11AM and ended Monday morning at work !!
> 
> I prefer shrooms as you can dose easy enough, and they only last the for a few hours, rather than what seems like an eternity on LSD. The comedown from shrooms is not that bad.
> 
> You just gotta find the right way to consume - we tried making a soup once with them, but then got stoned and forgot all about them so they were ruined, we just took the rest by rolling them up in balls and swallowing them as quick as possible.


Oh you were worse than me. 

I knew people who were way worse than you and wondered why the **** they bothered, because they never really appeared to be high tbh lol. Ridiculous tolerance levels.

Anyway, I havn't touched anything for about 16 years now and havn't touched a drop of alcohol for nearly 3 years. **** all that ****.

Only thing I'm interested in taking now is testosterone, and should get blood work done and look into that more.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Pete Beale said:


> .
> 
> Anyway, I havn't touched anything for about 16 years now and havn't touched a drop of alcohol for nearly 3 years. **** all that ****.


Never say never, we'll sort a night out and get you back on the drugs no problem. Make sure you bring a new marrow.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

SFC01 said:


> Yeah I never got any benefits after taking LSD - I abused a lot more than 2 years so you should be ok. 7 E's, 2g of speed, some coke, weed, beer and LSD in one day - started with the beer at 11AM and ended Monday morning at work !!
> 
> I prefer shrooms as you can dose easy enough, and they only last the for a few hours, rather than what seems like an eternity on LSD. The comedown from shrooms is not that bad.
> 
> You just gotta find the right way to consume - we tried making a soup once with them, but then got stoned and forgot all about them so they were ruined, we just took the rest by rolling them up in balls and swallowing them as quick as possible.


My friends and I once had to split a small bag of shrooms among like 7 people, so we ground them up and mixed it in with some schnapps, then took turns taking shots of it. It really helped make the trip come on smoother and faster I think. And it didn't taste like shrooms, which is another plus.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

finallyclosed said:


> My friends and I once had to split a small bag of shrooms among like 7 people, so we ground them up and mixed it in with some schnapps, then took turns taking shots of it. It really helped make the trip come on smoother and faster I think. And it didn't taste like shrooms, which is another plus.


yeah, when we were rolling them up in little balls, sometimes they would unravel in your throat, wasnt the best taste.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

SFC01 said:


> Never say never, we'll sort a night out and get you back on the drugs no problem. Make sure you bring a new marrow.


>


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ects-accused-kidnapping-drank-trippy-tea.html


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Pete Beale said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ects-accused-kidnapping-drank-trippy-tea.html


We did some things like that on acid - seemed a good idea at the time.

Maybe we can try something like this on our mountain trip this year !!

Oh yeah, thats right, its official that I`m coming Bealey my brummy friend.


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

SFC01 said:


> We did some things like that on acid - seemed a good idea at the time.
> 
> Maybe we can try something like this on our mountain trip this year !!
> 
> Oh yeah, thats right, its official that I`m coming Bealey my brummy friend.


If only a marrow was someone involved in that lot lol.

I went to a job interview tripping once after lengthy exploration of local woodland with a few mates.

All I can remember is it felt like I had no body and was just a floating head being interviewed, and never hearing **** from the company ever again lol.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Pete Beale said:


> All I can remember is it felt like I had no body and was just a floating head being interviewed, and never hearing **** from the company ever again lol.


Would have been funny as **** if they gave you the job there and then !! :grin2:


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## The Notorious D.B.L (Aug 2, 2016)

SFC01 said:


> Would have been funny as **** if they gave you the job there and then !! :grin2:


lol I really can't remember anything from it apart from the woodland, the steel shutters to the factory and the sensation of just being a floating head. **** knows what the job role was or what they made in the factory. lol


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## mr peabody (Nov 3, 2017)

There's a lot of information on these issues here:

bluelight (dot) org/vb/threads/833414-Psychedelics-and-anxiety

bluelight (dot) org/vb/threads/823370-Psychedelics-and-depression


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## mr peabody (Nov 3, 2017)

In 1968 psychedelics were my WHOLE LIFE and they are still the #1 most important thing IN THE WORLD to me. I was just a kid when I saw Tim Leary dance out on stage at a Moody Blues concert in a white robe playing tambourine to them singing _"Timothy Leary's dead..."_ Leary was all the rage back then, but the damage done by Leary and others during those years was catastrophic. Some time ago I ran across this comment by Albert Hofmann:

_"I was visited by Timothy Leary when he was living in Switzerland many years ago. He was a very intelligent man, and quite charming. I enjoyed our conversations very much. However, he also had a need for too much attention. He enjoyed being provocative, and that shifted the focus from what should have been the essential issue. It is unfortunate, but for many years these drugs became taboo. Hopefully, these same problems from the Sixties will not be repeated."_

Now I haven't the slightest interest in anything religious, but I feel strongly that psychedelics are the key to life's deepest secrets, and that...

_"Behind it all is surely an idea so simple, so beautiful, that when we grasp it, we will all say to each other, 'How could it have been otherwise?'"_ (Wheeler)

The problem is the virtual unavailability of PRACTICAL information about psychedelics and their preeminent purpose which, unfortunately, is presently beyond the means of science to address. Psychedelics inexorably collapse the scientific paradigm.

Hundreds of trips have introduced me to certain "facts", for example that matter is materialized light. Now I can't prove this but I know that it is so. And I'm NOT imagining it, any more than I'm imagining that I love my wife. I know these things are so even though I can't "prove" them.

What if the following were true?

Human beings are light channels with an aperture like a camera. Psychedelics force the aperture open in relation to the amount of substance consumed. Like water seeking it's own level, _light will flood through any open channel with full force, according to aperture dilation_. More than one is ready for can cause a "bad" trip.

What if psychedelics were the only known tools for developing light throughput? What if star birthing were our ultimate destination, and psychedelics key for enabling that?

Just saying - WHAT IF?


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I can see how MDMA could be used for those with a terminal illness. It's really nice to not be self-centered for once. I've taken it a couple times and it was wonderful. I'd like to try it again.


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