# Do you fear death?



## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Do you fear death (not to be confused with the process of dying)?

I've already posted this question before, but I wanted to ask a larger group; so please, for the sake of this thread, if you want to elaborate on your answer just limit it to your own reasons without criticizing other people's opinions or worldviews. 

I do fear death as a finality. Who knows what's on the other side. If there's something, I've watched enough porn to know where I'm headed. If there isn't, I will dissapear forever (not the most uplifting scenario either). So my answer is, yes, I fear it.


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## Failure (Feb 4, 2007)

I supose I do fear death. But i do not fear the process of dying. I beleive in God but i don't go to church, dont know what that is called.

I'm going to hell though for sure. I've killed men, watch porn everyday, drink, have bought escorts, had one night stands, and swear like a sailor.


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## njodis (Nov 8, 2006)

I'm scared of finding out what happens after we die.

There must be something. I just can't comprehend what it could be, though.


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## Inturmal (Jan 15, 2006)

I'm not afraid of death at all. I do fear life though.


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## boxofcheapwine (Apr 3, 2007)

religious/do not fear death


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



Cerberus said:


> My, my, you really are obsessed with this, orpheus.
> .


eh, just saw someone die a few days ago. more morbid at the present than usual (if that's possible).


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

I don't fear death, but I do fear the experience of dying.


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## Nae (Nov 10, 2003)

atheist and nope.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

andy1984 said:


> I don't fear death, but I do fear the experience of dying.


 :ditto


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## GraceLikeRain (Nov 9, 2003)

I don't fear death at all, and yes I am religious. I know where I am going and know that I after I die that I will finally be at peace. No more of having to deal with depression, anxiety, panic, etc, everyday.


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

As you've surely noticed, I'm one of the most vocal Atheists around here.

Yes, I do fear death. If I could magically know the future and knew that at 3:15 PM Central Standard Time tomorrow I would drop dead instantly & painlessly I'd certainly be nervous. I'd be nervous because I can't be 100% certain of what happens after death, though my expectation would certainly be non-existence. Death would also mean I'd lose out on the potential, however unlikely, to actually do so many things.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



UltraShy said:


> As you've surely noticed, I'm one of the most vocal Atheists around here.
> 
> Yes, I do fear death. If I could magically know the future and knew that at 3:15 PM Central Standard Time tomorrow I would drop dead instantly & painlessly I'd certainly be nervous. I'd be nervous because I can't be 100% certain of what happens after death, though my expectation would certainly be non-existence. Death would also mean I'd lose out on the potential, however unlikely, to actually do so many things.


Well, most people want to die into old age, when, to put it frankly, life becomes less attractive to many people. What if you knew nothing would happen after death and that you'd die at at the age of 90. Would you still fear it?

Karl, you sound like a weak atheist now. You are actually considering the possibility that Satan has a pitch fork with your name on it. :lol


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## Andre (Feb 27, 2004)

agnostic/very afraid of death


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## UltraShy (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



orpheus said:


> What if you knew nothing would happen after death and that you'd die at at the age of 90. Would you still fear it?


Well, if you provide both certainty and an expiration date that is 57 years away then it wouldn't worry me. I'm already sure I'll die someday and it's not something I worry about.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

_Well Jesus Christ, I'm not scared to die,
I'm a little bit scared of what comes after._

I'm religious and I fear death, just so happens I fear life too.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

No way. Death will be sweet.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



Zephyr said:


> No way. Death will be sweet.


Is life really that bad?


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## Gerard (Feb 3, 2004)

A very old cat isn't swept with torrents of terror over its impending death. It just calmly walks out to the woods, curls up under a tree, and dies. A terminally ill robin perches comfortably on the limb of a willow, and stares into the sunset and when finally it can see the light no more, it closes its eyes for the last time and drops gently to the ground. How different from the way humans face death:

Do not go gentle into that good night
Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Dylan Thomas

Your existential dread is quite simple to cure. To find egoic meaning is to "do" something in life, and up to a point that is appropriate. Beyond this egoic meaning is more of being; "being" meaning the spiritual path of what all the major religions seem to stress upon. 

To find fundamental meaning is to find that the very processes of life itself generate joy. Meaning is found in the inner radiant currents of your own being, and to be released and related these currents to the world, to friends, to humanity at large, and to infinity itslef.

Lastly to find real meaning is to accept death in life no matter how hard that may be. 

A combination of all these answers can be seen in books like Rollo May's Love and Will, Carl Rogers On Becoming a Person, and Ernest Becker's The Denial of Death.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



unsure said:


> A very old cat isn't swept with torrents of terror over its impending death. It just calmly walks out to the woods, curls up under a tree, and dies. A terminally ill robin perches comfortably on the limb of a willow, and stares into the sunset and when finally it can see the light no more, it closes its eyes for the last time and drops gently to the ground. How different from the way humans face death.


That is because we are the only species that is aware of our own eventual demise. Animals can see each other dying left and right, but death is still not even a conceptual reality for them. When they die, they feel death's breath pass over them, but they don't understand it.

I have read Becker's book. He makes death seem more terrible than I do. He, of course, was a Christian. And I've read enough Nietzsche to know that the most potent forms of nihilism have come from the minds of religious thinkers, including those who start religions in the first place. Of course, he could very well have the cart before the horse.


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## embers (Dec 19, 2006)

Life is a test of our deep seeded morals and values and we are rewarded at the end of it if we stick by it despite the struggles. I've come to terms with the fact i'm gonna die, but I look at it as more of a transition. I just hope it doesn't hurt too bad. :um


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



orpheus said:


> Zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > No way. Death will be sweet.
> ...


Yes.


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## Nae (Nov 10, 2003)

Zephyr said:


> orpheus said:
> 
> 
> > Zephyr said:
> ...


At times life can be worse than death. Death isn't the worst thing that can happen to a person, imo.

On another note, I noticed the fear of dying is what really scares some and I would have to agree. I have mentioned this before, but I watched my grandfather slowly die and have diabetes ravage him. Each time I saw him over a period of months he was missing another limb, delirious, and in constant pain. My mind kept screaming _just let this guy die, already._ My grandmother died one morning suddenly of a heart attack and if I could choose I would rather go out like she did. It reinforced the fact that I need to be sure to have a living will written up so I don't wind up endlessly kept 'alive' in some hospital.


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## Iric (Jan 26, 2007)

I wish I was never born. I hate dealing with life and hate the fact that I'm going to have to deal with death. This guy on the radio said "since 9/11, we are 5 years closer to our death." It's pretty depressing if you think of it that way.
[/i]


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## ShyFX (Mar 6, 2006)

I'm agnostic and I dont fear death.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

ShyFX said:


> I'm agnostic and I dont fear death.


Why not?


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## ShyFX (Mar 6, 2006)

Well orpheus, I dunno what happens when you die, but I have a feeling that a few people are already waiting for me.


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## sushiwithfish (Mar 10, 2007)

i don't fear death, the thing i fear is someone close to me dying (besides my sa problems). i am not religious and i think there's nothing after death, you just die and that's the end of you. 

poor us the ones living have to go through the mourning and stuff.


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## Username (Oct 27, 2004)

No, but I'll probably start fearing death once I start getting closer to it or when put into a face-to-face situation with it (Oh hello Mr. Grizzly Bear).


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## Whimsy (Mar 16, 2006)

Nope, I fear life.


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## Scrub-Zero (Feb 9, 2004)

I am religious and I do not fear death


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## SebFontain (Jan 27, 2004)

I fear the unknown. The possibilities of what are to come are truly endless. Not knowing were I am on to next is what I fear.


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## ghostgurl (Sep 20, 2004)

No I do not fear death. In fact, I welcome it when the time comes.


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## refined_rascal (Dec 20, 2005)

I will also welcome death when it comes. I'm not afraid of it.


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

Atheist/ not afraid.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Welcome death? sorry guys, but now I think you're just sounding emo for the sake of sounding emo... jk.

I am high-strung about everything. I need to have control over my life. It's why I loathe social anxiety. Death is just a reminder of how pointless all of that suffering was (if there is no God). We are born, we suffer, and then we dissapear. Life was just a blink, a flashing nightmare, and the world becomes nothing again. 

Has anyone heard of Nietzsche's idea of 'eternal recurrence.' The idea is that if the big bang process occurs infinitely, then eventually everything, including our lives, will return, and infinitely so. Stephen Hawkings and Carl Sagan flirted with the idea, though I think the oscillating universe theory has long since found its grave. Interesting idea, though.


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## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

I'm not afraid of death, itself. It's the actual act of dying that elicits any sort of fear.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

I only fear killing myself with less than guaranteed methods like a gun, which i dont have. I dont fear death though.


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## Failure (Feb 4, 2007)

I do not see how anyone can fear the process of dying more then what comes after death. You won't remember the pain after it's over, and it's just pain. What is scary is wondering whether you're going to hell after you die eternally, or if everything is just over and nothing is after death.


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## justlistening (Dec 4, 2006)

I only fear my funeral, cause even then the thought of being the centre of attention freaks me out.









I wish I could just disappear without anyone noticing it!


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## Andre (Feb 27, 2004)

I'm deathly afraid of death. 

I too am skeptical about this "welcoming death" talk, Orpheus. It sounds a bit overdramatic.

Why aren't more of you afraid? Doesn't the prospect of complete nothingness disturb you? Just like turning off a tv.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

ilikemyself said:


> I too am skeptical about this "welcoming death" talk, Orpheus. It sounds a bit overdramatic.
> 
> Why aren't more of you afraid? Doesn't the prospect of complete nothingness disturb you? Just like turning off a tv.


How can complete nothingness be disturbing? It's nothingness.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Zephyr said:


> ilikemyself said:
> 
> 
> > I too am skeptical about this "welcoming death" talk, Orpheus. It sounds a bit overdramatic.
> ...


This documentary called "Flight From Death: The Quest for Immortality," captures my own personal fear.

Trailer: 





But I realize one's visceral response to the idea of death is as unique as one's personality. Personally, I'd have to hate life to an unfathomable level to wish for death. In fact, death (not only my own) is one of the few things that makes me unhappy.

That reminds me of a quote from Mark Twain:

"Life was not a valuable gift, but death was. Life was a fever-dream made up of joys embittered by sorrows, pleasure poisoned by pain; a dream that was a nightmare-confusion of spasmodic and fleeting delights, ecstasies, exultations, happinesses, interspersed with long-drawn miseries, griefs, perils, horrors, disappointments, defeats,humiliations, and despairs--the heaviest curse devisable by divine ingenuity; but death was sweet, death was gentle, death was kind; death healed the bruised spirit and the broken heart, and gave them rest and forgetfulness; death was man's best friend; when man could endure life no longer, death came and set him free."


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

Drella said:


> No, I'm not afraid of death. *It's the actual act of dying that elicits any sort of fear*.


Yeah, I hope it's not painful or embarrassing.

Then, since I am religious I'm afraid of what happens after death.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



Failure said:


> I do not see how anyone can fear the process of dying more then what comes after death. You won't remember the pain after it's over, and* it's just pain*. What is scary is wondering whether you're going to hell after you die eternally, or if everything is just over and nothing is after death.


HAHA ok. There are people who have suffered slow, painful deaths and that's a scary thought. I'm sure if it happened to you, God forbid, you wouldn't think "Oh, it's just pain." I do agree with wondering what happens after death though.


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## Inturmal (Jan 15, 2006)

ilikemyself said:


> Doesn't the prospect of complete nothingness disturb you? Just like turning off a tv.


I would love to have an off switch. Nothingness is peaceful.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Inturmal said:


> ilikemyself said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't the prospect of complete nothingness disturb you? Just like turning off a tv.
> ...


Peacefulness is a state. You seem to be confusing nothingness with sleep.


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## Inturmal (Jan 15, 2006)

orpheus said:


> Peacefulness is a state. You seem to be confusing nothingness with sleep.


The state of nonexistence is a state of having peace. I'm not confusing anything.

R.I.P.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Inturmal said:


> orpheus said:
> 
> 
> > Peacefulness is a state. You seem to be confusing nothingness with sleep.
> ...


 state n. Abbr. st. 1. A condition or mode of being, as with regard to circumstances: a state of confusion. 2. A condition of being in a stage or form, as of structure, growth, or development: the fetal state. 3. A mental or emotional condition: in a manic state.

How can you be in a state of having peace and not be?


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## Inturmal (Jan 15, 2006)

I don't know. How can someone "rest in peace"?

What is the concept of "zero"? :b


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Inturmal said:


> I don't know. How can someone "rest in peace"?
> 
> What is the concept of "zero"? :b


When you say death will be peaceful, do you mean it only as an expressoin, the way RIP is meant?

And I'm not sure how zero is relevant to this discussion :b


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## Inturmal (Jan 15, 2006)

orpheus said:


> When you say death will be peaceful, do you mean it only as an expressoin, the way RIP is meant?
> 
> And I'm not sure how zero is relevant to this discussion :b


Zero is a concept of nothingness, but zero itself exists.

Peace - "the absence of mental stress or anxiety."

To exist in a state of nothingness is to not experience anxiety - aka existing in peace.

Fine, you win. _The idea_ of nothingness is peaceful. But to me, that also makes nothingness itself peaceful.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Inturmal said:


> orpheus said:
> 
> 
> > When you say death will be peaceful, do you mean it only as an expressoin, the way RIP is meant?
> ...


I have never understood why religious people use the term Rest in Peace, anyway. As far as they believe, the person is not resting but up in heaven with God. They seem to be primarly fixated on the body that is at rest (literally).


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## free thinker (Nov 11, 2003)

Inturmal said:


> Zero is a concept of nothingness, but zero itself exists.


Zero is only a symbol which represents the nothingness.


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## free thinker (Nov 11, 2003)

orpheus said:


> Who knows what's on the other side. If there's something, I've watched enough porn to know where I'm headed.


Just as I do not buy into "the God" concept, I do not buy into the idea that unless you lead a certain type of life you will go to a different place than others do after they die. I suspect that the dying and afterlife process, if there is one, doesn't differentiate one human being from another. To believe it does means that you have to believe in this ancient human concept for which there is absolutely no evidence. This belief is simply sheer speculation or wishing thinking by some.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

free thinker said:


> orpheus said:
> 
> 
> > Who knows what's on the other side. If there's something, I've watched enough porn to know where I'm headed.
> ...


Your speculation about a possible afterlife is as grounded in evidence as mine.

I do find it difficult to reconcile an benevolent God with the idea of an eternal punitive hell. Every human notion of justice rests on the idea that the severity of the punishment for a crime must be proportional to the severity of the crime. No finite crime could warran infinite punishment. Yet, we make an exception for God because God is the final arbiter. So in order to accept God's laws, you must suspend reason.


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## Andre (Feb 27, 2004)

Zephyr said:


> ilikemyself said:
> 
> 
> > I too am skeptical about this "welcoming death" talk, Orpheus. It sounds a bit overdramatic.
> ...


I expected someone to respond with that. I know it isn't logical, but that's how it is for me.


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## Iric (Jan 26, 2007)

sleep is the cousin of death.


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## Your Lover Scrub Ducky (Jul 26, 2004)

Yeah I guess I do. I don't fear the process of dying, but I fear death coming unexpectedly before I can accomplish some things and leave my "mark" on history, if you will. I fear what happens after you die....especially if nothing happens. If there is no afterlife, then would all my thoughts, knowledge, love, feelings, memories... just disappear as if they never were? As if I never existed? How sad.


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## free thinker (Nov 11, 2003)

orpheus said:


> Your speculation about a possible afterlife is as grounded in evidence as mine.


Or anyone else's. It's all just speculation. A good reason why we shouldn't expect any particular afterlife scenario to be the reality (if indeed there is an afterlife).


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## SebFontain (Jan 27, 2004)

Scrub Ducky said:


> Yeah I guess I do. I don't fear the process of dying, but I fear death coming unexpectedly before I can accomplish some things and leave my "mark" on history, if you will. I fear what happens after you die....especially if nothing happens. If there is no afterlife, then would all my thoughts, knowledge, love, feelings, memories... just disappear as if they never were? As if I never existed? How sad.


I honestly wouldn't be surprised if all of our memories were wiped clean like a baby at some point.

As far as saying there is nothing after death and we just blink out, well that's a pretty easy way of concluding death. I would say we wont get off that easy :lol


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

ilikemyself said:


> Zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > ilikemyself said:
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The problem is you're considering death from the vantage point of life. You're still alive, so the idea of being dead, even if it means not existing at all, is 'disturbing'. But, you really have to put yourself into the mindset of a corpse. If indeed after life you don't exist at all, then it can't be disturbing, or joyous, or anything. It simply can't be anything at all.



orpheus said:


> I do find it difficult to reconcile an benevolent God with the idea of an eternal punitive hell. Every human notion of justice rests on the idea that the severity of the punishment for a crime must be proportional to the severity of the crime. No finite crime could warran infinite punishment. Yet, we make an exception for God because God is the final arbiter. So in order to accept God's laws, you must suspend reason.


I've read some religious thinkers (can't remember names) who believe that hell is not eternal. They basically take the same point of view as you - that a finite lifetime cannot result in infinite punishment. They believe that the notion of an eternal hell is a misinterpretation of something or other.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Zephyr said:


> ilikemyself said:
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> 
> > Zephyr said:
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And I don't think anyone made that claim. The disturbing part about death is the loss of the entire world forever. We all have a life force within us, even if the strength of it varies by the person. I think that will to live is what causes us many of us to fear death; for many people who don't fear it, they either believe their life force will continue on or their life force was never strong to begin with.



> orpheus said:
> 
> 
> > I do find it difficult to reconcile an benevolent God with the idea of an eternal punitive hell. Every human notion of justice rests on the idea that the severity of the punishment for a crime must be proportional to the severity of the crime. No finite crime could warran infinite punishment. Yet, we make an exception for God because God is the final arbiter. So in order to accept God's laws, you must suspend reason.
> ...


I've been meaning to pick up the Bible. I'd like to find one that was truer to the original version. The King James translation added or changed the meaning of certain things so it's not always clear what is meant in one Biblical passage or another.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

free thinker said:


> orpheus said:
> 
> 
> > Your speculation about a possible afterlife is as grounded in evidence as mine.
> ...


You're castigating a certain belief in an afterlife because there is no evidence for it, yet in light of an absence of evidence, you lean toward (or "suspect") one interpretation of an afterlife. If believing in something without evidence is irrational, then that also goes for leaning toward any belief without evidence.


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## free thinker (Nov 11, 2003)

orpheus said:


> You're castigating a certain belief in an afterlife because there is no evidence for it, yet in light of an absence of evidence, you lean toward (or "suspect") one interpretation of an afterlife. If believing in something without evidence is irrational, then that also goes for leaning toward any belief without evidence.


Castigate, hardly. There was no severe criticism in my post. I will acknowledge however, that my choice of the word "suspect" was a poor one. The phrase "for all we know" would have been a much more appropriate choice to express my point of view since the purpose of the post was to demonstrate to you that it is just as likely that there is no judgment in the afterlife as there is some form of judgment.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

orpheus said:


> Zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > ilikemyself said:
> ...


I don't understand what you mean with this 'life force'.


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## Gerard (Feb 3, 2004)

If one wants a different perspective of death, according to Buddhism after one dies one transitions into the bardo state of existence before reincarnating into a different body, where one is not in a gross physical body as you are in now, but a subtle body. This body is something like the dream state every human being enters at every single night when one goes to sleep. There's this strange yet controlling force that makes one goes to sleep and dream. How to explain this phenomenon? I can tell you. If you were to measure your brainwaves on an EEG machine at night it would tell you go on in the theta state where you dream and then plunge deeper in the Delta state where there are no thoughts, imagery, anything and this is called the causal body. In terms of Buddhism again this is your original face, the face you had before the Big Bang, your fundamental true nature. Enlightenment is attaining this state consciously and being one with everything arising moment to moment knowing that everything are all jewels of the Great Perfection. All sentient beings goals is this Ultimate Goal. You are reincarnated over and over again until you are free from suffering, until you are free from samsara. Enlightenment is the goal for everyone. Anyway still when you sleep, you then cycle from subtle to causal around six to seven times more and in the morning waking up again refreshed in the gross physical realm and this measured on the EEG machine would register as Beta waves. Alpha waves is something like a reverie state that progresses betweeen Beta and Theta waves. You could actually see all this monitored on an EEG machine, seriously. In terms of religion, all the world religions stress upon these three states of consciousness, waking, dreaming, and deep sleep and encourages esoteric practices of prayer, meditation, and subtle energy practices such as Yoga, Tai Chi, Qigong etc. to have access to these states. All the mystics such as Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Lao Tzu were all Enlighten beings telling humanity at there own time and space how to get in touch with this ground of being. But if you want a more clear explaination of the bardo realm read, "The Tibetan Book of the Dead." You could even possibly go to a heavenly realm, a ghost realm or hell where one doesn't stay there indefinitely forever, but that is all based on your karma good or bad. I can't not prove karma. But one would think why people get physical disease such as AIDS or the different forms of cancer and other people live healthy longer. How do you explain the "meaning" of illness. You can't just say one just has it. That doesn't make complete sense. There has to be meaning attached to any disease. The notion of karma seems to be the only valid reason, negative in this case. Or how do you explain deafness or blindness, scientifically. Why aren't you blind or deaf? Explain that. Karma again seems to explain this phenomenon. I could go on and prove the grounds of reincarnation and more by just questioning reality itself. It's very simple to question and be your own philosopher. I could go on and on but I don't want to sound too much for you. Anyway one could take or leave my rationale.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Zephyr said:


> orpheus said:
> 
> 
> > Zephyr said:
> ...


I don't understand what you mean with this 'life force'.[/quote:61b68]

The will (or instinct) to live.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

unsure: the idea of attributing karma to the millions of children who were born with aids is just plain sick. Many of these children were merely unfortunate enough to be born into a society wrought with poverty, disease, and strife. If you're going to suggest illnesses are a sign of Karma, then you're saying a child born with aids contracted it not because his mother slept around, but because he did something wrong in a successive life. or a child who dies of an infection not because there weren't any available antibiotics to treat it but, again, because of something he or she did in a previous life. 

Karma is not only a mentally lazy explanation for unfortunate circumstances, but an immoral one.


I brought up the same objection to my Buddhism professor who simply didn't want to hear it because he had no answer.


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## Andre (Feb 27, 2004)

Like I said, the fear is illogical. I can't look at it from a corpse's mindset because the very concept of being me is inseparable to me. I have the will to live just as I think everyone does, even suicidal people who think they want to die. Our fear of death helps keep us alive, but to what means? Nobody knows.

I honestly would not mind living forever. That's why I want to be a vampire.


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## starblob (Oct 23, 2005)

I don't fear death - i fear not living my life before i die.


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## Gerard (Feb 3, 2004)

orpheus said:


> unsure: the idea of attributing karma to the millions of children who were born with aids is just plain sick. Many of these children were merely unfortunate enough to be born into a society wrought with poverty, disease, and strife. If you're going to suggest illnesses are a sign of Karma, then you're saying a child born with aids contracted it not because his mother slept around, but because he did something wrong in a successive life. or a child who dies of an infection not because there weren't any available antibiotics to treat it but, again, because of something he or she did in a previous life.
> 
> Karma is not only a mentally lazy explanation for unfortunate circumstances, but an immoral one.
> 
> I brought up the same objection to my Buddhism professor who simply didn't want to hear it because he had no answer.


Sure you want an explaination of all of those children. Sure it's pretty easy to prove. It's not necessarily karma but something else, the power of the mind.

Sure it feels sick, I know and I could understand. Why would one want to think that way. But I still have to argue that there is actually "meaning" behind illness. In any disease, I believe there are entities. One which is the actually "illness" such as cancer, a heart attack, a tumor. The other is the "sickness" portion which means how this an infected person is faced with how society or culture deals with that illness which means all the judgments, fears, hopes, myths, stories, values, and meanings a particular society hangs on each type of "illness". With "sickness" it could go two ways. One being that a culture treats "illness" with compassion and understanding such as a healing crisis and opportunity. When "illness" is viewed this way it has a more likely chance to heal, and that the whole person; the entire person can grow and be enriched. The other way it "illness" can be interpreted is that there is condemned meaning of creating values and judgments attached to the illness. One could ask themselves: Why do I have this disease? Why me? What does it mean? What did I do wrong? How did this happen to me? In other words a person attaches some sort of "meaning" to the "illness." So where does this "meaning" come from? It is dependent first on one's society of all the stories, valueus, meanings in which one's culture dresses the particular disease. So in this case with the millions of children who are infected with AIDS, their society has brought infected "meaning" attached to their "illness"

For example say gonorrhea which is an infection of the genitourinary tract, and spreads by sexual contact among infected partners. But it's treatable with antibiotics such as penicillin. Penicillin treats the "illness" But what about the "sickness" portion. There's meaning behind it; cultural meaning. A society can say that the "meaning" is that who contracts gonorrhea are unclean, or perverts, or morally degenerate which means that gonorrhea is a moral disease.

Long after Pencillin which destroyed the "illness","sickness" still remains. These judgments and condemnations are eating away at the person's soul the way bacteria once ate at the body. So sickness might still say that "I'm a rotten person, I'm no good, how horrible of me" This nagging perspective again which is negative not positive of "sickness" is more destructive than the "illness" itself.

Therefore "illness" is condemned by "sickness" or meaning. The negative perspective of "sickness" defined by society's judgments are then supposed to be said that they are selffulfilling and self-reinforcing prophecy: Why me? Why am I sick? Because I've been bad. How do you know that I've been bad. Because I'm sick. Endless continuous thought cycle.

With AIDS again, its not just a "illness" but it has a "sickness" which is continuously transported to all those infected by the "negative" view of their society, which infects the minds of all those who are actually infected.

How about cancer which is another disease; an illness which very little is actually known and there is virtually nothing known about how to cure it. So with cancer there are an enormous number of myths and stories with it. As an "illness" it is poorly understood. But as a "sickness" is has enourmous proportions. So the difficult with the "illness" of cancer, the "sickness" portion is absolutely overwhelming.

With Orthodox medical science they have failed to understand this, the cause and cure of cancer, at the same time they developed enormous number of myths and falsehoods which create the "sickness"

Chemotherapy does not work to cure cancer. It's trying to treat the "illness" Orthodox medicine and doctors doesn't see the "sickness" meaning part to it. But there is another school of medicine which can be seen as Alternative, Complementary, Holistic, and this school treats the person, it treats the "sickness" or it treats the "meaning". Orthodox medicine doctors tell a cancer patient "facts" which are actually "sickness"; the meaning and judgments that society assigns to it.

Once again with the situation of those millions of AIDS children suffering, "sickness" (the cultural and societal meanings of their illness) is eating at there soul causing the "illness." Or in other words negative thought contagion spreading more of the "sickness"

You could also say this about plaques run rampped that have affected humanity through out history.

To understand how thoughts can affect the body positively or negatively read The Biology of Belief by Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. It's somewhat of a New Agey book but is written by a former medical school professor and research scientist.

Karma can or can not be part of this. In the case of the millions of AIDS affect children I don't think this is, for it doesn't make sense completely to be honest.

But I do believe karma can still affect someone having an illness to a certain degree. "Illness" in this case once again, is the result of negative karma, that is some nonvirtuous past action are now coming to fruition in the form of a disease. This is the "bad" of it. But there is actual "good" because in a sense it represents the burning up and the purifying of the past misdeed; it's a purgation, a cleansing.

I could give you an example of my own experience with karma and possible biological affects on my body. During adolescence, I was a pretty dysfunctional teenager against my parents. I often shouted (nonvirtuous past action) at them. I was doing therapy and meds and I was taking a mood stablizer. Because I was taking a mood stablizer I had to often take blood tests to be sure my levels were doing ok. Then they notice that my thyroid level is not normal but it's high. Why is that? One could possible think that my nonvirtuous past action has affecting my biology. Also at the time I would also get sore throats often. Why?

To compare now as a completely mature and loving, accepting, person towards my parents, I never shouted at them again or anyone else, and I haven't experience a sore throat for a while. How do you explain this phenomenon?

Anyway, to conclude again there is two natural ways of getting illness, drinking poison or doing something to you is not one of those ways, but again like I stressed and completely explained that one's disease is part of associating meaning, negative in this case, or "sickness" that eats and destructs the soul creating "illness" and other whether or not together is one's negative "karma."

I really believe its very important to implement alternative medicine in hospitals and in health care. Orthodox medicine could go so far treating the "illness" yet will never understand the "sickness"

Men and women necessarily and intrinsically swim in the ocean of "meaning" I've warn you beware if you are to "drown" in it.


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## free thinker (Nov 11, 2003)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



unsure said:


> Sure you want an explaination of all of those children. *Sure it's pretty easy to prove.* It's not necessarily karma but something else, the power of the mind.


If you had proven your point there would be no doubt left in my mind. However, that is definitely not the case.



> I could give you an example of my own experience with karma and possible biological affects on my body. During adolescence, I was a pretty dysfunctional teenager against my parents. I often shouted (nonvirtuous past action) at them. I was doing therapy and meds and I was taking a mood stablizer. Because I was taking a mood stablizer I had to often take blood tests to be sure my levels were doing ok. Then they notice that my thyroid level is not normal but it's high. Why is that? One could possible think that my nonvirtuous past action has affecting my biology. Also at the time I would also get sore throats often. Why?
> 
> To compare now as a completely mature and loving, accepting, person towards my parents, I never shouted at them again or anyone else, and I haven't experience a sore throat for a while. How do you explain this phenomenon?


I haven't had a sore throat for a while either but that is probably because I now take much better care of myself than I did as a youngster. To accept something as a cure for a malady one needs to do controlled experiments. To do otherwise, is to ignore the many possibilities that could be responsible for the change.


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## boxofcheapwine (Apr 3, 2007)

Wow, there is a disproportionally large number of agnostic/atheist/nonreligious members on here. :shock Someone should conduct a formal research study on the correlation between SA and religious beliefs.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

I noticed that too and it saddens me really, but to each his own. I don't want to get into the whole debate. It's tiresome.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



starblob said:


> I don't fear death - i fear not living my life before i die.


Reminds me of a line from a movie:

"Do not fear death, but rather the unlived life."


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



Strange Religion said:


> I noticed that too and it saddens me really, but to each his own. I don't want to get into the whole debate. It's tiresome.


I do fault myself for that.

Unsure: If you want to take this to S & C, feel free.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

> I could give you an example of my own experience with karma and possible biological affects on my body. During adolescence, I was a pretty dysfunctional teenager against my parents. I often shouted (nonvirtuous past action) at them. I was doing therapy and meds and I was taking a mood stablizer. Because I was taking a mood stablizer I had to often take blood tests to be sure my levels were doing ok. Then they notice that my thyroid level is not normal but it's high. Why is that? One could possible think that my nonvirtuous past action has affecting my biology.


Sounds to me like it could have been the other way around. Dysfunctional thyroids can cause mood problems like depression.



> Also at the time I would also get sore throats often. Why?


Thyroid as well, maybe? I don't know. Lots of things can cause sore throats. There could be a psychosomatic component but just as easily there might not be.

Did you get treatment for the thyroid problem?


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## foxtrot (Feb 17, 2007)

Im agnostic but lean heavily towards aetheist. I mean it seems preposturous to me that there is anything else but nothing. total void. sleep without dreaming. I say agnostic because no one can be truly sure but I expect to do nothing but enter the void. doesnt sound too bad.
I do however think it would be quite lovely if there was some sort of afterlife that was pleasant(a heaven-like place) or neutral(something like reincarnation) and if there is a semblance of life after death and its good then im all for it! an eternity of mixing with everyone who's ever died whilst still cursed with SA would be pretty savage though :fall 


agnostic/not afraid of death

afraid of not getting something good out of life before i reach that point tho


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: re: Do you fear death?*



foxtrot said:


> Im agnostic but lean heavily towards aetheist. I mean it seems preposturous to me that there is anything else but nothing. total void. sleep without dreaming. I say agnostic because no one can be truly sure but I expect to do nothing but enter the void. doesnt sound too bad.
> I do however think it would be quite lovely if there was some sort of afterlife that was pleasant(a heaven-like place) or neutral(something like reincarnation) and if there is a semblance of life after death and its good then im all for it! an eternity of mixing with everyone who's ever died whilst still cursed with SA would be pretty savage though :fall
> 
> agnostic/not afraid of death
> ...


I know what you mean. There are two divisions within the non-religious population: non-theists and anti-theists.

Non-theists are divided into two groups: those, such as myself, who flirt with religion every now and then, who waver between agnosticism and religion as if walking on a very narrow trapeze. We wish we could reconcile reason and religion into a certainty. Then there are agnostics who aren't vehemently anti-religious, but who have no special wish or desire for religion (i'm reminded of Einstein and Darwin)

then there are anti-theists, like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Nietzsche, who prefer, if not love, their non-theism


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

im terrified of death, sometimes.


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## rumjungle (Feb 13, 2009)

andy1984 said:


> I don't fear death, but I do fear the experience of dying.


Same...although this may depend on the circumstance of your death but your brain pumps feel good endorphins through your body so I guess at least you can't panic right? End on a high note?...

It's a difficult question for me...I answered that I do not fear it...and mostly it doesn't bother me. I like the Epicurean school of thought on death (that is if you submit to atheism), I find it comforting and logical if I am at the time leaning more towards atheism.

*[Death] does not then concern either the living or the dead, since for the former it is not, and the latter are no more. *


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## SoloSage (Feb 26, 2009)

Sometimes I fear it, sometimes I dont - it depends on my mood really.


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## KumagoroBeam (Sep 15, 2008)

agnostic etc./I do fear death

I am scared of non existance.


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## Tangent (Jul 1, 2009)

I am not scared of death. I spent trillions of years prior to my birth being dead, I want to return to that state.

I am, however, terrified of dying.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

I don't fear death itself. 

What I fear is not having lived before dying.


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## John Paul (Jun 19, 2009)

I am not religious and I don't fear death, I fear the physical part of dying because I kinda have got used to this whole breathing thing and the thought of struggling for breath in my final moments scares me very much.

The thought of not existing doesn't scare me at all, I find it all rather intriguing though, I am not totally closed to the thought that there might be an afterlife although I find it rather doubtful, but you either exist or you don't after you die and that doesn't scare me at all.


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## Freedom2010 (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm not religious, but I dread death. I don't fear it though. I know it is going to happen eventually (hopefully when I am very old and had a long, happy life).


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## lastofthekews (May 11, 2009)

I try not to think about death as it is too overwhelming a thought, and makes me too anxious. I'm more afraid of growing old and dying having not experienced a fulfilling life. 

I do think that when we die we become one with the universe, but this is only my belief. The scary thing about death is that no-one really knows what happens after this life, and the unknown is frightening. I hope we have some form of awareness after death, and that we live on in some sense.


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## liarsclub (Aug 23, 2008)

---


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## Zeddicus (Apr 1, 2009)

I was not brought into this world by (my) choice. At least, not that I'm aware of. I therefore have every right to leave it by my own choosing, if I so desire, should circumstances become too unfavorable. I am not afraid to open the door. Or close it, depending on your perspective.


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## Melinda (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm an atheist, and I don't fear death.

While it is kind of worrysome to think that there is always the possibility I could drop dead tomorrow or have to suffer eternally in an afterlife (because I don't really _know_ how my death will play out or what's in store afterwards). I also know that rationally neither of those will probably happen. I'm probably going to live a lot longer, and how I feel after death will most likely be similar to what I felt before was before I was born.

I do fear the dying process somewhat, but I like to imagine that I'll die in a hospital somewhere--hopefully given some pain meds to put me out so I don't have to suffer so much. It's just a thought.


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## HustleRose (Jun 19, 2009)

Yes, but mostly because I'm afraid I won't be "prepared".

Oh, and I don't have a religion.


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## dullard (Aug 4, 2008)

I am an atheist and I do not fear death. Death inevitable, why bother fearing it?

Part of me wants to die in some spectacular fashion. Go out with a bang rather than a fizzle, you know what I mean? I may be alone in this.


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## PolarBear (Jun 23, 2009)

I don't believe in the afterlife or anything like that, so the prospect of death for me, at this moment in my life, is utterly terrifying.

Just the thought of ceasing to exist; a complete and utter nothingness, its quite scary. You won't even experience nothingness; you'll cease to have any experiences at all; you'll just cease to BE. Yeah.

Don't get me wrong, being surprised by an afterlife would be awesome. But being of a scientifically oriented mind, i can't realistically think that it's a possibility.


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## Tangent (Jul 1, 2009)

LaRibbon said:


> How can you not fear death? It's instinctive to fear it.


It is instinctive to fear _dying_. I am not so sure it is instinctive to fear death itself.

Do remember that, prior to your birth, you were, in fact, dead. In that your personality, your conscious mind, did not exist. A person is not a constant physical thing, their outward personality and conscious thoughts are the result of pulses of energy, essentially. When these are not present, the person is dead.

Or, if you don't like that idea, then the short answer to your rhetorical question is:

If your life is s***


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## espearite (Jan 2, 2009)

Do I fear death? Right now, no.


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## eileenAKAmommy (Jul 7, 2009)

I am semi-religious, and I do not fear death.

I fear leaving my children without a mother, without memories. I fear not watching them grow up, and become grown men.


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## LoneLioness (Nov 16, 2003)

I've always this horrible fear that there is no such thing as death. That instead we stay alive in our bodies and just can't move, see, hear or feel, basically we become a mind trapped for all eternity unable to do anything but think. So yes, I'm scared of death. I do wonder about cremated people though, I think perhaps their spirits become free and are the ghosts people sometimes report seeing.


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## seanybhoy (Mar 2, 2008)

Umm...... no.


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## Jnmcda0 (Nov 28, 2003)

I am an agnostic atheist and I do not fear death, though I do fear the process of dying if it involves lots of pain. After watching several relatives die of cancer and watching my grandmother die of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's Disease, I know that is definitely not the way I want to go. I'd hate to be lying in a hospital, too ill to do anything, just waiting to die. 

I think I actually fear living more than death. I don't mean living as in eating, breathing, sleeping, etc., I mean truly experiencing life. I fear love, I fear sharing my emotions, I fear the unknown. I've been in a routine of social anxiety and bouts of depression for so long that it has become the norm. It is what I know. I actually fear life without social anxiety in some respects. Rationally, I know I have nothing to fear, but when we are social anxious or depressed, we are not thinking rationally.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

atheist who fears death. its sucks that we will die


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## JFmtl (Dec 23, 2008)

Death is the only certitude in life so yes is fear death. I consider myself as an agnostic. First, im afraid that my death could be long and/or painfull (i don't want that). Also, well, i don't know if there is any after-death, do we somehow continue to exist in any form or if we just dissapear.


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## livinginfear (Jan 31, 2009)

It's the fear of the unknown for me. I believe in an after-life, but don't know exactly what it will be like; and I figure if it turned out there was no after-life, I'd be dead so it wouldn't really matter at that point. I have a strong belief in a higher power, but let's face it, I fear any circumstance where I don't know exactly what's gonna happen -- I'd be very nervous walking into a coffee shop I'd never been in before for example so I'd be lying if I said I wasn't afraid of death . . . even if what happens next is everything I've always believed, I don't know all the details . . . who's gonna be there, what exactly is going to happen, that kind of stuff. I hate going anywhere alone so even the idea of going to heaven by myself is scarey. Plus if there is a heaven, can you imagine the multitude of souls there by now; I'm not good with crowds. I came into this world afraid, and I imagine I'll leave still holding on to that fear. I'm assuming once I get to the other side, fear won't exist, but I've never known life without it so it's something I can't really comprehend.


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## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

I am an agnostic/atheist/nonreligious and I do not fear death


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## MobiusX (Nov 14, 2008)

no Death fears me


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## liarsclub (Aug 23, 2008)

--


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