# My conclusion on Online Dating Websites



## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

After making a profile on OKcupid just last night I have confirmed in such a short amount of time that alot of the stuff I tell people on here is in fact the cold hard truth.

I get lots of women looking at this crappy profile I put up, but none will message me. I also find it baffling how all of them are the super model types. My conclusion to that is because of a few reasons:

1. LOOKS draws them in, which tells them they are attracted to you (if you're ugly, game over)
2. They look at your MONEY and your JOB. If you are unemployed, or under-employed, it's pretty much game over.
3. How charismatic is the profile? Are you interesting or just another loser shut-in? 
4. and last but not least, outdated gender roles, that women want to be here for eternity, that says that men have to always be the one who talks first, and does everything first - total BS for guys like me who struggle with that, and other guys here, if you ask me

So what if I get 2 messages per year without doing anything. You girls on these dating sites would get 25,000-50,000 in that time frame. 800-1,000 weekly. 200 daily. But you say there's no nice guys out there. That's just an excuse, because you can't find an alpha with lots of money. Your definition of a nice guy is a mean alpha, with money. Not a genuine, christian guy who isn't shallow. That's why everytime you go out and see and an average looking dude with an average or above girl it's because either he's got money or he's "the chosen one" meaning she chose him. Not the other way around because she is the one who had all the choice in the first place. Women choose and men respond, meaning that if you go and approach hundreds of women online and off and don't get anywhere it's because she's not choosing you so you're wasting your timee.

2 messages compared to 50,000?

TL-DR

Dating sites are rigged against men. Women just have SO MANY OPTIONS they just never go without. It's unreal. Women have the advantage because they don't need looks or money to get a guy, just themself, while I need to pretend I'm a rich alpha bad boy thug.... and part of the blame goes on you desperate dudes who will take any living breathing female that can sleep with you, instead of holding them up to the same medicine. That's pathetic.

So the game is rigged against you guys and it doesn't matter what anyone says....if you are a virgin at 20 years old that's never been with a girl, you're gonna be a 25 year old lost cause EASILY.

I just wanted to say that to all 30 of the women who looked and didn't message me first.


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## Mr Blues (Apr 1, 2011)

From my experience with various online dating sites I can tell you that you won't get the 'super model types' initiating first contact with you. 

I have succeeded in getting responses and conversing with those very types of women, but I had to message them FIRST.

Though I do agree with the income part. I have found that even if I do get into a conversation with an attractive woman, she immediately stops responding as soon as I explain to her what I do (which is a financially unstable line of career). Funny thing is I state this clearly in the first line of my profile, so I suspect a lot of these women don't even read my profile before choosing to respond to me...


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

It doesn't matter if they are super models or not.


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## Mr Blues (Apr 1, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> It doesn't matter if they are super models or not.


Well dude you mentioned 'super model types' looking at your profile so I assumed it did matter. I'm just telling you my experience with those types.

Income seems to matter more to them than other types.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

It's just even an average looking woman has so many options and choice.


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## watashi (Feb 6, 2008)

stranger25 said:


> I just wanted to say that to all 30 of the women who looked and didn't message me first.


They could be shy too. Why don't you message them yourself? Rather than making theories about women you could try talking to them and asking them out.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

stranger25 said:


> I get lots of women looking at this crappy profile I put up


Which means you're already a couple steps ahead of me. I don't get any visitors. When I get one it's usually a bot (seriously, I have actually had more bots visit my profile than women).

I think I've had a grand total of 2 women visit my okcupid profile in about 5 months.

But but but. I am involved with someone right now who I met at another dating site (my profile visitor count is equally abysmal there).

So, just leave the profile up there. Doesn't hurt to do that. You may get at least some approaches. It might work out, you never know.


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## shadowmask (Jun 22, 2009)

Cool story bro.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

watashi said:


> They could be shy too. Why don't you message them yourself? Rather than making theories about women you could try talking to them and asking them out.


And? Why do women stay in their comfort zone, complain about there being no "nice[mean] alpha[+rich] guys" around. But they just want to sit back and wait. Like I said, that's an excuse. While a guy has to put everything on the line. That's dumb.


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## StevenGlansberg (Apr 1, 2009)




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## watashi (Feb 6, 2008)

stranger25 said:


> And? Why do women stay in their comfort zone, complain about there being no "nice[mean] alpha[+rich] guys" around. But they just want to sit back and wait. Like I said, that's an excuse. While a guy has to put everything on the line. That's dumb.


Maybe because guys like you don't ask them out? Usually the ones that do are the ones that get into relationships. And what makes you think women only sit and wait and never get rejected? It's very rare to get anywhere with dating without doing anything, most people have to take risks and handle their share of rejection before they find the right person.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

You've confirmed another observation of mine which is the fact that only men are willing to challenge gender roles. Women want them the way they are because it lets them have the advantage, and because of that 10% of males on earth will never find a woman. That's what women should know. Thanks to women not sending first, 10% of men will be genocided.

If you're one of those girls who just sits back and waits, expecting the guys who suffer to do all the work, then you're just contributing to the dateless male epidemic.


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## IcedOver (Feb 26, 2007)

You said that women don't need looks to get attention on a dating site, but I doubt that's true. I'm sure that some ugly women get unsolicited messages just for the fact that they might be more desperate, but the attractive will get many more. You could say that the deck is still stacked against unattractive women. 

I've had a Plenty of Fish profile for over three months, have had very few visitors and no full messages. I received two e-mails saying that two women found me on a "Meet Me" feature I didn't know I was on, and that they wanted to meet me. These weren't accompanied by messages. However, the women were not appealing physically or in what they put in their profiles, so I didn't send them messages.


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## watashi (Feb 6, 2008)

stranger25 said:


> You've confirmed another observation of mine which is the fact that only men are willing to challenge gender roles. Women want them the way they are because it lets them have the advantage, and because of that 10% of males on earth will never find a woman. That's what women should know. Thanks to women not sending first, 10% of men will be genocided.
> 
> If you're one of those girls who just sits back and waits, expecting the guys who suffer to do all the work, then you're just contributing to the dateless male epidemic.


Did you even read what I wrote? I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to a wall here.


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## Monroee (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm on OKCupid searching for females. & All I get are messages from guys. They sure are persistent, aren't they? I guess bisexual/lesbians are hot.

But to the OP, It's just the way ze ways are. You must approach first even on the interwebz. You keep trying to prove this point, & people continue to argue with you. Personally, I think you're right for the most part. BUT, how are you going to change this? You can't force women to ask you out first.


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## OldSchoolSkater (Jun 3, 2011)

Online dating is one of those things that I've looked at but never really gone through with. I don't want a woman to be interested in me because I make a certain amount of money, or have something in common with them. I want to meet a girl, have that connection, and then have her realize that she would like to spend more time with me because she enjoys it. 

Online dating has worked for a lot of people. Unfortunately the money thing is a huge part of it, as is the picture. If your picture doesn't attract them, and you show that you don't make very much money on there, it is an immediate turn off for most women who are dating online.

But at the same time, if you were looking for a woman, saw that she was unemployed, and didn't think she looked cute in her picture, would you message her and try to go on a date? I doubt it.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

You have to message them.

Like in the real world, online dating is a "man approaches woman" game. That is, unless she's obese or something, in which case she'll get desperate and message all the guys, hoping that one will date her.


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## OldSchoolSkater (Jun 3, 2011)

^ This makes sense. Women put their information up hoping a guy will message them, and not necessarily go searching through and message guys as they are interested in them. 

Perhaps you should take a little more initiative and try to message a few of the women you are interested in.


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

Women don't normally message men, some will, but usually they don't. Also, unemployment will make a difference. Women are pickier then men, where most men would not mind dating an unemployed person, a lot of women would. Online dating is also unequal because I think, I am not sure, but I think men out number women.

And I have messaged guys before, but most of them seem put off by it, so if I ever do online dating again, I won't.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Well guess what, I'm not unemployed, but thanks for admitting a taboo truth that 98% of other girls won't admit. 

Women have it 100 times easier, along with higher standards, and this problem has gotten so bad, that it has lead to where only a minority of men are having relationships and dates, leaving the rest of the guys to die off.


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## OldSchoolSkater (Jun 3, 2011)

^ I wouldn't agree with that. If only a minority of men were having relationships, well then that would mean that only a minority of women are having relationships. I would agree that women tend to have higher standards, which is continuing on with the old tradition that men should be able to take care of their family, etc, but at the same time I see plenty of great women with not so great men - the men just know how to talk to women and make them feel good about themselves.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

nmpennea said:


> Women don't normally message men, some will, but usually they don't. Also, unemployment will make a difference. Women are pickier then men, where most men would not mind dating an unemployed person, a lot of women would. Online dating is also unequal because I think, I am not sure, but I think men out number women.


Well said. Now tell that to the hordes upon hordes of straight women on this board who continually deny all this. Hell, can we just make this post a sticky and get it over with?


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

OldSchoolSkater said:


> ^ I wouldn't agree with that. If only a minority of men were having relationships, well then that would mean that only a minority of women are having relationships.


Not true at all. One "playa" might well be banging 20 chicks at a time. There's a biological basis for this, too. If a nuclear holocaust was upon us and you were tasked with ensuring the survival of the human race, would you choose to save 20 men and one woman, or vice-versa? Men are simply less valuable, as individuals, from a reproductive standpoint.


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## UndreamingAwake (Apr 11, 2011)

You guys are really depressing yourselves with talk like "men are less valuable". Maybe it takes only one guy to impregnate 20 women, but that doesn't mean that those 20 women are fine with sharing this one guy, and thus, we definitly are valuable, as companions and lovers. 

I know a woman who's very wealthy, and well, hot and she comes from a rich family. Her first husband cheated on her, her second turned out to be a drunk, so she left him, and she owns a store along with the man she's married to atm. I've talked to her husband, and he too suffered from what would now probably be diagnosed as SA. Guess what, they are happy together. And he didn't come from a wealthy family in the least.

Instead of making assumptions based on questionable statistics, you might want to just look out for your self and try and find the one woman for you who *isn't* part of what is (according to you) the money-grubbing majority. Of course, maybe you're all completly right and where you live, most women indeed are this way, but I haven't seen it. The only problem I personally have with women and dating is my social skills and being an outcast. Money never entered the equation.

Not saying that I don't agree with you all in that it's ridicilous that in this so-called "equality" era we live in, men are still the ones that have to do all the approaching. Of course, my manly honor would dictate I am the one making the first move, but seriously. On Match, there are plenty of women who share their pics with me, as did the girl I currently date, so I'm assuming it's their way of "approaching" us.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

^^Women do approach. Maybe not as often but I used to see it all the time. Plus, I don't see why they couldn't or wouldn't considering the society we live in today. Think of it this way: if you don't have to approach, would you? Probably not in most cases.


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## add2list (Nov 10, 2010)

bwidger85 said:


> ^^Women do approach. Maybe not as often but I used to see it all the time. Plus, I don't see why they couldn't or wouldn't considering the society we live in today.


You're right they do. People approach you if you seem approachable...which is really hard (for both men and women) when we have SA b/c we often appear closed off, nervous and guarded around others. If I go out and sit in the corner, staring down at the floor, nobody will come up to me. However, if I go out and do things and not care, and have fun then I get approached.

OP what in the profile you created was supposed to spark someone's interest. Why should they approach you? What of your personality/interests were you offering them that they could relate to and reach out?


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

stranger25 said:


> Women have it 100 times easier, along with higher standards, and this problem has gotten so bad, that it has lead to where only a minority of men are having relationships and dates, leaving the rest of the guys to die off.


Men only have it harder if they have SA, crap social skills, lives with his mom, or is physically unattractive. Most normal non-SA guys don't have the same problems you are referring to, since most of them do have the ability to get into relationships.


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> Well guess what, I'm not unemployed, but thanks for admitting a taboo truth that 98% of other girls won't admit.
> 
> Women have it 100 times easier, along with higher standards, and this problem has gotten so bad, that it has lead to where only a minority of men are having relationships and dates, leaving the rest of the guys to die off.


I guess women have it easier when it comes to getting dates, but when it comes to continuation. I haven't had a date in 2 years since my ex cheated on me, because i attract the people who think the should control me.

And you can be upset about life, or you could ask someone out, or take initiative. Most people have been rejected at some point in their lives. A lot many times. There are single women everywhere, but they are afraid of rejection or don't fit society's standards or what is beautiful, or don't want to sleep with someone before a certain time limit, or just don't care about dating.

SO if you are interested send a message to someone.

No one, including women, should wait to see if someone wants to be with you. There may be someone that didn't even look at your profile that would be interested in you and you saw hers and liked it.

If she sees you visited and you didn't send a message she would probably just assumed you weren't interested as opposed to you just wish she would send a message.

SA sucks, dating sucks, just work on being happy.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> *After making a profile on OKcupid just last night I have confirmed in such a short amount of time that alot of the stuff I tell people on here is in fact the cold hard truth. *
> 
> I've been talking about how bad online dating is for months, especially OKCupid. Being a guy on there is like being toxic waste.
> 
> ...


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

add2list said:


> If I go out and sit in the corner, staring down at the floor, nobody will come up to me.


If you were a woman, they might.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

shynesshellasucks said:


> Men only have it harder if they have SA, crap social skills, lives with his mom, or is physically unattractive.


You just described a socially anxious male. A lot of us have those characteristics.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Oh great another woman have it easier thread.

I'm not going to deny the fact that females do have a higher success rate of traffic on dating websites and as a result have an increased chance of going on more dates however the process of dating as a whole is no easier or difficult for females compared to males. They face the same challenges as men do.

The bottom line is, if you want something you have to work for it. Sitting here complaining about why a girl did not do all the work to contact you and initiate a conversation with you whilst you have no intentions of trying it yourself is just hypocritical. 

As for the comments about looks drawing them in, guys are EXACTLY THE SAME. Only caring about money and job? Well if I saw the profile of someone who looked like they had no ambitions for the future with regards to work then I wouldn't exactly want to contact them either and as for only caring about money? Seriously, grow up.

This thread is just a whine about why you can't sit on your arse and expect things to happen for you without even putting in an effort. Frankly you don't deserve a gf if you stick with that attitude.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

Why does everyone think you need money? And how much are we talking about? Im confused because if the rules apply as you both claim, then i should not be as single as i am right now.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm talking about strictly on all these dating sites out there. It's just unreal and depressing.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Goddess bless the person who commented that they were feeling like they were talking to a brick wall. Because that is actually what you do end up talking to if you dare to go against the creed of "men have it harder" and "some random women didn't message me so now a whole load of TFL crap is suddenly true". And they will scream and scream and scream and spend a long time attempting to personally attack you if you dare to say you disagree with what they say. 

Suggest that they stand up for the man they are and actually get to a place where they can approach a girl (because, if she's not worth that effort, why on earth do you like her in the first place?) and they become so threatened that they start shouting "how dare you believe in me as a person? Don't you know that believing in someone is a male shaming tactic!!" and other hilarious stuff. 

If you're this aggressive towards women because some random people didn't message you on a dating website, you really do need to take a long, hard look at yourself. They were under absolutely no obligation to message you even if they did look at your profile and ascribing all these motives to their decision not to message you (i notice you didn't entertain the option that the women might be shy and or might not be paid up members of the website or might be nervous about messaging random guys on the internet even if they did like them) is just mind reading, assumption based guesswork with absolutely no foundation. 

This forum is, frankly, becoming a very unpleasant place to be if you happen to be a woman. Many women on here have social anxiety too and they really don't need to read aggressive threads about how they "automatically have it easier". The mind reading about women's attitudes to gender roles based simply on not getting some responses on a dating website is just bonkers. 

I realise it is far easier to retreat into Youtube videos, bonkers conspiracy theories, mad assumptions about women based on not getting any responses from some dating website and other fun "let's get cross" stuff. But anger and neediness are two of the very few things which can destroy attraction and stop it from generating so they really aren't helpful things to have regardless of who may or may not have it harder in the dating world.


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## Keith (Aug 30, 2008)

The excuses of i cant get a date because of x,y,z are bs. How do i get dates online? Effort! I dont have good stats: i presently can't work, i live with my mom, I'm not an Adonis, I have no degree, etc. yet I manage to get dates when i apply myself. It takes some work and you got to message girls that you think will be interested in you not just based on their looks etc. And send them a good message that asks questions considering you want to get to know them better! And be prepared to get rejected lots it comes with the territory!

You can sit here and whine all you want but if you aren't willing to put in some effort forget about dating, the first hot girl you message isnt gonna reply more than likely. 

Good luck anyways I think it takes a little to find someone worthwhile.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

IcemanKilmer said:


> You just described a socially anxious male. A lot of us have those characteristics.


I know that was not the point though. I was just saying that most guys are not like us so they are more capable to be in relationships. And the average male non-SAer doesn't have it 100 times harder as stranger25 said.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Keith said:


> The excuses of i cant get a date because of x,y,z are bs. How do i get dates online? Effort! I dont have good stats: i presently can't work, i live with my mom, I'm not an Adonis, I have no degree, etc. yet I manage to get dates when i apply myself. It takes some work and you got to message girls that you think will be interested in you not just based on their looks etc. And send them a good message that asks questions considering you want to get to know them better! And be prepared to get rejected lots it comes with the territory!
> 
> You can sit here and whine all you want but if you aren't willing to put in some effort forget about dating, the first hot girl you message isnt gonna reply more than likely.
> 
> Good luck anyways I think it takes a little to find someone worthwhile.


The only types of girls on these dating sites are the 9/10 supermodels, who get 200 messages per day. There are no "ugly" or "average" women. I'm starting to believe that "ugly" women don't even exist. Obviously if women have the advantage at this, they aren't ugly to a large portion of men.


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## Arbor (Jun 17, 2009)

I've never used a dating site but why don't you guys just say you're a doctor?


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Keith said:


> The excuses of i cant get a date because of x,y,z are bs. How do i get dates online? Effort! I dont have good stats: i presently can't work, i live with my mom, I'm not an Adonis, I have no degree, etc. yet I manage to get dates when i apply myself. It takes some work and you got to message girls that you think will be interested in you not just based on their looks etc. And send them a good message that asks questions considering you want to get to know them better! And be prepared to get rejected lots it comes with the territory!
> 
> You can sit here and whine all you want but if you aren't willing to put in some effort forget about dating, the first hot girl you message isnt gonna reply more than likely.
> 
> Good luck anyways I think it takes a little to find someone worthwhile.


True. Work it is sometimes. I have had dates with some women I've found attractive and some not, and I'm sure they thought the same of me in some instances. Truth be told from my perspective, it is almost too much work online. I'm not really up for it anymore. My probability has been very low and I suppose I never matured enough to keep up the struggle without a struggle. I wish I had the gumption to just keep at it but it really does seem too hard compared to most things in life by far, and I'm not sure I am willing to put up with that anymore, at least right now.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Joinmartin, I can understand the OP's frustration but you do have a point about being negative about it. It isn't healthy and it doesn't get you anywhere. I honestly think a lot of women on these forums are becoming apathedic toward the whole male rant thing about their own sex. They hear it all the time and I'm sure it becomes less and less interesting to them. After all, why waste their time arguing to a brick wall?


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## Keith (Aug 30, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> True. Work it is sometimes. I have had dates with some women I've found attractive and some not, and I'm sure they thought the same of me in some instances. Truth be told from my perspective, it is almost too much work online. I'm not really up for it anymore. My probability has been very low and I suppose I never matured enough to keep up the struggle without a struggle. I wish I had the gumption to just keep at it but it really does seem too hard compared to most things in life by far, and I'm not sure I am willing to put up with that anymore, at least right now.


I agree it is almost too much work just for the uncertainty of a date that may or may not go well. I'm on break from dating as i have been for quite some time partially because i want to improve myself but also because its a lot of freakin work. I have had some successes that may or may not influence my future attitude towards online dating when i decide to put myself out there again.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

I'm curious: what is the goal of posting this? I'm not asking a rhetorical question, I'm quite serious.

Is the goal to get every member of the forum to agree with you? Is the goal to show females how good they have it? To depress other socially anxious males? To create a debate?

I never understand the purpose of these threads.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

^ I'd say it is mostly a rant but also to gain comfort from frustration.


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## sonicrainboom (Apr 11, 2010)

If the girls are all really good looking, why would they need to approach you? Like you said, they get tons of messages already so what is the point in messaging you? Good looking people are used to not putting in any effort because they get approached all the time. The same is true of good looking guys, they don't need to put much effort into picking up women because they get approached all the time. Find a site with uglier girls if you want to be fawned over.


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

Don't assume that women on the internet are the same in real life. In real life people are more forgiving and understanding. At least they are at first (eventually they may get sick of you not having a job  ). On the internet there isn't that physical presence and people are less forgiving. "Real life" is a very physical, raw thing. Things happen that don't happen online. The internet allows you to get away with things, like making a list of demands. Do you really think that a woman never dated a guy that didn't live up to those demands? That list of demands is probably a reaction to her real life experiences. It's bitterness and frustration. That doesn't mean that women don't date guys that don't meet those requirements, though. The same thing goes for guys. This is why I don't have a girlfriend that I met online first, though. I always let my negative side win over with talking to girls online. I would get depressing or reveal too much about myself. Too much honesty. At least that's why I think it never got anywhere. I think they are too very different entities. Both have their advantages. In real life, for instance, you may have alcohol working to your advantage (I don't mean getting laid, either). When you are "dating" online, you may be able to open a part of yourself, though e-mail exchanges and such, that reveal a part of you that you may not have had the time or social ability to in real life with a person that you otherwise would have just been sitting next to all of the time, not talking to, when hanging out, etc.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

joinmartin said:


> Goddess bless the person who commented that they were feeling like they were talking to a brick wall. Because that is actually what you do end up talking to if you dare to go against the creed of "men have it harder" and "some random women didn't message me so now a whole load of TFL crap is suddenly true". And they will scream and scream and scream and spend a long time attempting to personally attack you if you dare to say you disagree with what they say.


Exactly. This is pretty much why I stopped participating in any of these topics that inevitably end up spiraling into a gender war.

I'm just so, so tired of reading about "what women really want" and seeing some men here call women liars for telling them anything that doesn't mesh perfectly with their world view. Like this:



anomalous said:


> Now tell that to the hordes upon hordes of straight women on this board who continually deny all this. Hell, can we just make this post a sticky and get it over with?


I read things like this, and I wonder, why do you guys see one comment that supports your beliefs and jump all over it, yet when "hordes upon hordes" of people say the opposite, you write it all off? Can you really not fathom that maybe all these women are saying it continually because it holds true for them and their personal preferences?

What do you possibly think we have to gain from lying about what we want in a potential partner?

No offense intended to either stranger25 or anomalous, but both of you are still quite young. Perhaps it would be wise to get some more life experience under your belts before you form such jaded opinions on dating and the opposite gender. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way at all. I just think you both have so much life ahead of you, and it really is a shame that you basically seem to have given up before you even really got started.

Instead of playing the blame game, take some responsibility for yourself. Work on making yourself more desirable and approachable (hint: a negative attitude, resentment towards women, and sounding like a "woe is me" broken record are not exactly huge turn ons). The right attitude can make all the difference.

Unemployed men get into relationships. Men who are not Brad Pitt's clone get into relationships. Men who have barely a cent to their names get into relationships.

There is no reason to give up hope. The only way you take yourself out of the game completely is by giving up on yourself.

Give it time, rather than jumping to hasty conclusions because you made an OKC profile 24 hrs ago and you haven't gotten the results you wanted yet. Patience is a virtue.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

Perfectionist said:


> I'm curious: what is the goal of posting this? I'm not asking a rhetorical question, I'm quite serious.
> 
> Is the goal to get every member of the forum to agree with you? Is the goal to show females how good they have it? To depress other socially anxious males? To create a debate?
> 
> I never understand the purpose of these threads.


The goal is to get your thoughts off your chest. That's why anyone posts on here. It feels good to put your thoughts out so other people can see them and let others know how you feel.

Don't forget, most of us are socially anxious and don't have much of a social life, if any social life. For many of us, this is the one place where we can be heard.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

*joinmartin*: While I don't condone the personal attacks and the overall tone from that other thread, I feel that you are mischaracterizing the views of the other side. I'm not trying to attack you, but I bring it up because I think this kind of thing is the reason these threads keep coming up. Instead of acknowledging that the overwhelming expectation in society is that the man approaches the woman, which seems like an obvious fact to me, many people here deny this outright and try to characterize the person making the complaint as having aggression or hatred towards women, or as being irrationally dogmatic, or as being misogynistic. These comments are usually untrue and simply polarize everyone even more. These gender roles are a real and troubling obstacle faced by men, one of the biggest obstacles faced by SA males, and they should be allowed to vent these frustrations without getting sarcastic comments and unfairly being called misogynists.

These threads would probably appear much less often, and would just run their natural course, if they were just considered as venting of frustration, and not responded to with derision (not necessarily saying you do this, but many do). I have no problem with pointing out the fluidity of dating situations, as you do, and telling people that they are not doomed despite societal tendencies. I just sometimes wish there was just a bit more understanding by a lot of the people on this forum of where people are coming from.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

ape in space said:


> *joinmartin*: While i don't condone the personal attacks and the overall tone from that other thread, i feel that you are mischaracterizing the views of the other side. I'm not trying to attack you, but i bring it up because i think this kind of thing is the reason these threads keep coming up. Instead of acknowledging that the overwhelming expectation in society is that the man approaches the woman, which seems like an obvious fact to me, many people here deny this outright and try to characterize the person making the complaint as having aggression or hatred towards women, or as being irrationally dogmatic, or as being misogynistic. These comments are usually untrue and simply polarize everyone even more. These gender roles are a real and troubling obstacle faced by men, one of the biggest obstacles faced by sa males, and they should be allowed to vent these frustrations without getting sarcastic comments and unfairly being called misogynists.
> 
> These threads would probably appear much less often, and would just run their natural course, if they were just considered as venting of frustration, and not responded to with derision (not necessarily saying you do this, but many do). I have no problem with pointing out the fluidity of dating situations, as you do, and telling people that they are not doomed despite societal tendencies. I just sometimes wish there was just a bit more understanding by a lot of the people on this forum of where people are coming from.


qft.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Ape in space said:


> try to characterize the person making the complaint as having aggression or hatred towards women, or as being irrationally dogmatic, or as being misogynistic. These comments are usually untrue and simply polarize everyone even more. These gender roles are a real and troubling obstacle faced by men, one of the biggest obstacles faced by SA males, and they should be allowed to vent these frustrations without getting sarcastic comments and unfairly being called misogynists.


I think a lot of times people say things that actually are misogynistic without even realizing it though. Many people think that misogyny is simply just the hatred of women. But it is actually more than that. For an example, the objectification of women is also considered a form of misogyny, though many people do not even realize it.

I fully agree that many SA men have a hell of a hard time with dating, and I never begrudge anyone the right to vent about such issues. But you can't deny that there are some who take that venting to an extreme, and let it over-flow into an obvious resentment of women.

I think that it would help if people would examine their beliefs more closely, and try to understand why they are eliciting the types of comments that they do.

I have an excellent link that explains why misogyny is more than just what the dictionary says it is, but it's not letting me link to it. So if anyone wants to read it, type "heartless" and "misogyny" into google and it will be the first link titled "what is misogyny?"


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

Just to add: I can understand why women might feel offended by the venting about this topic, because unfortunately straight males' dating problems naturally involve a group (ie. women) who happen to have representatives on this forum. But try not to take it personally; after all, there is a great diversity of women in the world, and a complaint about certain qualities or tendencies doesn't necessarily reflect on you, and is not necessarily an attack on you. We are listening when some of you point out that you or other women are different from the views some might have, and we do appreciate that. It's just that it's hard to see our situation as positive given our SA and our real-life struggles, hence all the venting.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

I just looked up the definition of misogyny-the hatred, distrust, or dislike of women.

I don't hate or dislike women, but I don't trust them. Does that make me a misogynist, just because I don't trust many women?


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Interestingly enough, misogyny has been around FOREVER, but online probably has had some effect of spreading it into the present. It also appears that guys have more resources to get all their mislead information from. You have sites like Double Your Dating; books like "The Game"; communities both online and off that make boot camps for those to practice PUA techniques, etc. I'm not sure how much women have the same type influences on their side, but it does appear that males either accept it more, or it is simply more popular on our side. I'm sure women also have mislead sources that perpetuate false claims about men as well, like magazines, etc, but I wonder how much more influential it has been for either sex over the years? Haha, ever see million dollar matchmaker? Now there is a show the perpetuates a certain ideology. That show is depressing.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Ospi said:


> I'm not going to deny the fact that females do have a higher success rate of traffic on dating websites and as a result have an increased chance of going on more dates....


That's a first for you. Congrats.

I'd take the increased chance, to be honest, since the dating part is difficult for everyone, as you say.



Ospi said:


> The bottom line is, if you want something you have to work for it. Sitting here complaining about why a girl did not do all the work to contact you and initiate a conversation with you whilst you have no intentions of trying it yourself is just hypocritical.


Why don't I ever see you saying this in threads started by women where they complain about "never having been asked out".

I might be mistaken, since I don't follow you around the forum, but if you've ever repeated this tired admonition to a woman, please link.



Ospi said:


> As for the comments about looks drawing them in, guys are EXACTLY THE SAME.


I've been contacted by a few women on dating sites (what can I say, I've been lucky of late), and they admitted they wouldn't have messaged me if I didn't have a picture up. And guess what, they didn't have pictures of themselves on their own profile. And I'm involved with one of those ladies now. So no, guys are not exactly the same.

*I'd like to know if any women here have ever messaged a guy on a dating site without knowing what he looked like.*



Ospi said:


> Only caring about money and job? Well if I saw the profile of someone who looked like they had no ambitions for the future with regards to work then I wouldn't exactly want to contact them either


I would. I don't need a cash machine. I can earn my own money, thanks. As long as they provided good companionship, I wouldn't care if they were employed or not. And I know plenty of men who think that. And I don't know a single woman, online or in real life, who thinks the same.



Ospi said:


> This thread is just a whine about why you can't sit on your arse and expect things to happen for you without even putting in an effort. Frankly you don't deserve a gf if you stick with that attitude.


Please repeat this in any threads made by women complaining about feeling undesirable and never having been asked out.

Heck, I don't even have SA, my problems with dating have entirely different causes, but there is a severe resistance to relate in any way to guys having dating problems on this forum.

stranger25 does go overboard and comes across as incredibly desperate about his love life. And I agree with a lot of what his detractors say. But people who ride in on high horses need to be told where to go.


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## njodis (Nov 8, 2006)

joinmartin said:


> Goddess bless the person who commented that they were feeling like they were talking to a brick wall. Because that is actually what you do end up talking to if you dare to go against the creed of "men have it harder" and "some random women didn't message me so now a whole load of TFL crap is suddenly true". And they will scream and scream and scream and spend a long time attempting to personally attack you if you dare to say you disagree with what they say.
> 
> Suggest that they stand up for the man they are and actually get to a place where they can approach a girl (because, if she's not worth that effort, why on earth do you like her in the first place?) and they become so threatened that they start shouting "how dare you believe in me as a person? Don't you know that believing in someone is a male shaming tactic!!" and other hilarious stuff.
> 
> ...


A++ would read again.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Ape, maybe threads like this would've received better/fewer reactions if the opening post wasn't always so antagonistic. They're like threads started by trolls - you know you shouldn't, but you just can't resist typing down an unhelpful comment and clicking the post reply button anyway.

Every now and then I do have the self-control to just click the back button, but whenever a relatively harmless OP begins receiving replies that basically come down to how women are superficial stupid gold-diggers who men don't actually want but have been biologically programmed to need, the urge to give someone the virtual middle finger rises.

Hey, we can't all go around being mature about everything.


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## strugglingforhope (Jun 13, 2009)

Keith said:


> The excuses of i cant get a date because of x,y,z are bs. How do i get dates online? Effort! I dont have good stats: i presently can't work, i live with my mom, I'm not an Adonis, I have no degree, etc. yet I manage to get dates when i apply myself. It takes some work and you got to message girls that you think will be interested in you not just based on their looks etc. And send them a good message that asks questions considering you want to get to know them better! And be prepared to get rejected lots it comes with the territory!
> 
> You can sit here and whine all you want but if you aren't willing to put in some effort forget about dating, the first hot girl you message isnt gonna reply more than likely.
> 
> Good luck anyways I think it takes a little to find someone worthwhile.


This. When I think of effort though, I don't mean the messages as much, I mean tweaking your profile. There's so much you can do, because that will sell you 100% more than any message will, particularly if you take better photos. You do need to put effort into the messages too though. It is a lot of work - true, and most girls depend on the guy to lead things, but it's doable for someone with SA. A small percentage of success beats no percentage.

Actually girls do message guys on those sites first (depends on the girl), sometimes they get so many messages they assume they can get whatever they want and all the guys messaging are desperate, so they go pick. I wouldn't say I've ever seen a girl put to much effort into an opening message though.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

What about misandry? Or does that just not exist in some peoples minds? I look at both sides. Not just one like others do. 

But anyways, it's like more and more I'm understanding what Winston Wu and Steve Hoca said about the times we are living in where a guy says he can't get a girl in his life.....everyone thinks it's evil if a guy wants a girlfriend and to get a date.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

My biggest complaint about online dating sites is that over 90% of women aren't attractive on there. And don't give me that, "oh, you just want women with supermodel looks." I've been on college campuses and saw plenty of women that I found attractive.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

IcemanKilmer said:


> My biggest complaint about online dating sites is that over 90% of women aren't attractive on there. And don't give me that, "oh, you just want women with supermodel looks." I've been on college campuses and saw plenty of women that I found attractive.


Welcome to the real world. Most people aren't conventionally "attractive".

The reason girls on college campuses look hot is because they're in the prime of their lives, at just the right age for their beauty to be at their peak. Most people look their best in their early twenties. It is usually downhill after that in terms of physical attractiveness.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

heroin said:


> Welcome to the real world. Most people aren't conventionally "attractive".
> 
> The reason girls on college campuses look hot is because they're in the prime of their lives, at just the right age for their beauty to be at their peak. Most people look their best in their early twenties. It is usually downhill after that in terms of physical attractiveness.


I totally disagree with that.

There are plenty of women ages 23-40 that are attractive. I've even see plenty of 41-50 year olds that are hot.


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## Some Russian Guy (Mar 20, 2009)

All you have to do is get a decent education and then make money...,
Lots and Lots of money!

Why can't you just forget all this pop culture tripe, about eternal battle between alpha males and nice guys, (which, in my opinion, is specifically geared toward misinformed, low social skillz, basement dwelling, "escape into internet" types, just to make them even more confused) and strife for your future and your success!

You're an American, G-D damn it!

Stand up and FIIIIGHHTTTT for what's yours, and stop being such a wimp!


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

Some Russian Guy said:


> Stand up and FIIIIGHHTTTT for what's yours, and stop being such a wimp!


Oh great, more shaming tactics. More "You're not man enough." More "Fight like a man." "Stop being such a wimp." "It's your duty as a man to grab your anatomy and ask a woman out."

Yeah, because if I don't, I'm not a "strong enough man," right?

I find that funny that I've never seen anything in the threads where women complain about not getting men, there's nothing there saying "Stop being such a wimp." "It's your duty to ask a man out." "Stand up for yourself as a woman." "Fight for what's yours, woman."


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

I didnt find a single attractive girl on dating sites could be just me but I found some to be plain janes.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

IcemanKilmer said:


> My biggest complaint about online dating sites is that over 90% of women aren't attractive on there. And don't give me that, "oh, you just want women with supermodel looks." I've been on college campuses and saw plenty of women that I found attractive.


It's because dating sites are generally for those that struggle with dating. So the women in there are not really all that attractive most of the time. I bet the women in dating sites would think the same about the guys in there as well.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

heroin said:


> Why don't I ever see you saying this in threads started by women where they complain about "never having been asked out".
> 
> I might be mistaken, since I don't follow you around the forum, but if you've ever repeated this tired admonition to a woman, please link.
> 
> I would. I don't need a cash machine. I can earn my own money, thanks. As long as they provided good companionship, I wouldn't care if they were employed or not. And I know plenty of men who think that. And I don't know a single woman, online or in real life, who thinks the same.


Pretty sure I have repeated those first thoughts in threads started by woman and I certainly believe the same applies to them as men, infact all my thoughts that I posted are applicible to woman as much as to men, imo.

As for the job comment, mine was in reference to people who have no intentions of even getting jobs and living off welfare when they are completely capable of working. I would have no issues dating someone who was happy working in a job which they enjoyed but did not pay highly. As long as they are capable of making ends meat then it really does not matter.

Guess I am just tired of the broken record which are these threads and the "life is too hard and unfair" attitudes which generally follow.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't know who you are directing the unemployed comments at, but I just got a job doing data entry yesterday that I start next month. If anything, I think it's women who are more likely to be leechers, considering they want the man to be the one who has money.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

Ospi said:


> Guess I am just tired of the broken record which are these threads and the "life is too hard and unfair" attitudes which generally follow.


Then why even come on this website? It seems more than half of this site is people complaining about life being unfair and hard.


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## Diacetylmorphine (Mar 9, 2011)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> I didnt find a single attractive girl on dating sites could be just me but I found some to be plain janes.


Hope i don't sound like a dick here but i kinda agree, they're definitely not hideous or anything but i just haven't really come across any i find attractive, and i realize I'm no Brad Pitt or whomever women may find conventionally attractive, but meh.

Funnily enough i got a message from a girl once and my profile is basically a joke and i don't have a picture up. (mainly out of fear of being recognized, and i'm not looking to date)
I feel kinda guilty about not responding but she seemed a bit strange, and too forward, lol. :blush


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> I don't know who you are directing the unemployed comments at, but I just got a job doing data entry yesterday that I start next month. If anything, I think it's women who are more likely to be leechers, considering they want the man to be the one who has money.


It's another shaming tactic. I've noticed even other men will use shaming tactics on us. It seems 80% of the people on this planet want to blame men for every dating failure that has happened.

They don't really care what your situation is, they just search for some fault that you may or MAY NOT have, and use it against you. What's sad is that other people will agree with them because you are a guy, and they love blaming the guy for any kind of dating difficulty.

It's not about truth, it's about holding men responsible.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

That's like the legendary TFL quote I stand by. 

"We as human beings will use a persons flaws or faults against them, but we don't want the same done unto us."


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

stranger25 said:


> I don't know who you are directing the unemployed comments at, but I just got a job doing data entry yesterday that I start next month. If anything, I think it's women who are more likely to be leechers, considering they want the man to be the one who has money.


It was not aimed at you or anyone specifically, just in general. And as I stated there is nothing wrong with being unemployed as long as you at least have plans or are working on getting a job. Exceptions obviously if studying and so forth. I realise SA makes it difficult for people to get work as well, but that just comes back to actively trying techniques and finding help to make progress against SA and hopefully to begin living a more enjoyable life.

There are no shame tactics here, but if you feel better thinking myself and others here are taking joy out of shaming yourselves in order to make us feel better the go right ahead, it makes no difference.

Oh and just so you know, I have zero luck with woman, had a single kiss and nothing more, never get shown interest irl and have no luck with online dating as well, so I am in more or less the same situation as you guys. But I also realise that the reason for me not getting anywhere with online dating is because I am too anxious to initiate anything and work for getting somewhere with it. I don't expect it to come to me, I accept it's like that due to my own errors.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> That's like the legendary TFL quote I stand by.
> 
> "We as human beings will use a persons flaws or faults against them, but we don't want the same done unto us."


Yeah, but not everybody does that. The people that do that though, fit into that 80% I was talking about.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

shynesshellasucks said:


> It's because dating sites are generally for those that struggle with dating. So the women in there are not really all that attractive most of the time. I bet the women in dating sites would think the same about the guys in there as well.


No, that doesn't mean anything. Some guys could say they have better luck at a bar or a park or at school. Dating websites are just another way to meet someone.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

bwidger85 said:


> No, that doesn't mean anything. Some guys could say they have better luck at a bar or a park or at school. Dating websites are just another way to meet someone.


Why is there less attractive girls then?


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Ape in space said:


> *joinmartin*: While I don't condone the personal attacks and the overall tone from that other thread, I feel that you are mischaracterizing the views of the other side. I'm not trying to attack you, but I bring it up because I think this kind of thing is the reason these threads keep coming up. Instead of acknowledging that the overwhelming expectation in society is that the man approaches the woman, which seems like an obvious fact to me, many people here deny this outright and try to characterize the person making the complaint as having aggression or hatred towards women, or as being irrationally dogmatic, or as being misogynistic. These comments are usually untrue and simply polarize everyone even more. These gender roles are a real and troubling obstacle faced by men, one of the biggest obstacles faced by SA males, and they should be allowed to vent these frustrations without getting sarcastic comments and unfairly being called misogynists.
> 
> These threads would probably appear much less often, and would just run their natural course, if they were just considered as venting of frustration, and not responded to with derision (not necessarily saying you do this, but many do). I have no problem with pointing out the fluidity of dating situations, as you do, and telling people that they are not doomed despite societal tendencies. I just sometimes wish there was just a bit more understanding by a lot of the people on this forum of where people are coming from.


:clap:clap Thank you for saying this! :clap:clap

I think people misunderstand it when guys say women have it easier in the dating world.

They make this incorrect equation:

Women have it easier and men have it harder = I am a man = I hate women because they have it easier

That couldn't be further from the truth. The truth is that women do have it easier...simply because they have a vagina. But that doesn't mean that it's hopeless for men. I disagree with stranger25, because I've seen his picture, and he's better looking than me. I have been approached by women before, therefore I don't understand how he couldn't have been approached...unless it's something, like his negative attitude, that is stopping women from befriending and wanting to date him.

Women can sense if you're angry. Sodini is one example. He was good looking, however you can sense there's "something wrong" in his youtube videos. He was at a press conference for positive thinking, and just watching him on the video made me uncomfortable. Surely just the way he acted would make women uncomfortable.

I've also been around women that have made me uncomfortable. These women also generally don't date...even if they're super attractive, because they throw off a sense of loopyness. Who wants to date a schizophrenic? Certainly not me!

What does this have to do with the topic? I guess that I'm saying that, if a woman had to choose between a well adjusted and good looking guy, or an average and socially awkward guy, she would choose the well adjusted and good looking guy. As would anyone. Including me or you.

Now, are there women out there who would date a bad boy? Absolutely. Are there women out there who would date drug addicts, abusive men, players, etc? Absolutely. There are stupid women, same as there are stupid men.

The question is, should you be looking for a stupid woman? If you don't want to be a pimp, should you be looking for someone who would be attracted to that? If you don't want to sell drugs, do you want to date someone who would be attracted to that?

I used to know a girl that was obsessed with death and murder. She would write letters to a particular serial killer, a really violent and famous one, and would get letters back. She was mentally unstable, and wanted to be "killed" by one of these killers, so that she could be famous. I distanced myself from her, and cut off all contact.

It's been 7 years since I've heard from her, so who knows? Maybe she got what she wanted? All I know is, she was mentally sick, and I didn't want to associate with her.

If those are the women that you're going after, I guess the question is...why aren't you going after mentally stable women?


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Like I've said, I've never been approached, or offered even a hand in friendship from girls. Ever. No interest of any kind. Maybe it's because I'm too quiet, and like a brick wall in public sometimes. But I'm not going to chat up random strangers on the street, that's just not my style. 

But the thing about no interest, no connections, approached, etc., that's a dark fact of my life.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

shynesshellasucks said:


> Why is there less attractive girls then?


Maybe because there are more "unattractive" girls in real life than attractive ones, idk. That still doesn't really validate anything. Ugh, I hate when I read the first sentence and only respond to that.... to your support, I do think more attractive people have the possibility of more options, yes.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

stranger25 said:


> Like I've said, I've never been approached, or offered even a hand in friendship from girls. Ever. No interest of any kind. Maybe it's because I'm too quiet, and like a brick wall in public sometimes. But I'm not going to chat up random strangers on the street, that's just not my style.
> 
> But the thing about no interest, no connections, approached, etc., that's a dark fact of my life.


If you give off body language as if you don't want to be bothered, or approached, then people will not approach you. Everyone is too worried of annoying someone, unless they look friendly and actually look like they want to chat with someone. Even then people can be shy and intimidated.

And if you wait for things to come to you, how is that any different from playing the lottery? And i'm sure you know how good of odds those are for people.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

stranger25 said:


> Like I've said, I've never been approached, or offered even a hand in friendship from girls. Ever. No interest of any kind. Maybe it's because I'm too quiet, and like a brick wall in public sometimes. But I'm not going to chat up random strangers on the street, that's just not my style.
> 
> But the thing about no interest, no connections, approached, etc., that's a dark fact of my life.


You know what? I'm quiet, too. I always get the "why don't you talk more?"

You know how many Facebook friends I have? 200. Do you know how many of them are women? Around 160.

Do you know how many I actually met offline, and formed friendships in real life? About 1/3 of that, approximately.

I don't think your problem is that you're quiet, stranger. I think the problem is that you're scared. And your "I'm afraid" vibe comes out as negativity, and makes no girls want to be around you.

I am not a trained psychologist, but just the fact that you believe all this trash about TFL, and quote it as the gospel, proves that you are isolated and can't seem to break out of it, and you're accepting something that, while completely inaccurate, seems to support your negative beliefs about yourself. You wallow in negativity, and find peace in that, and no girl (unless she's got problems) is going to be attracted to that.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

I think that's part of the problem. All this "well they don't want to be approached so I won't do anything". We look at a specific person and assume something about them. I think that's plain nonsense. Everyone here in America is so socially disconnected and paranoid with fear based on what the powers that be tell them.


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## Some Russian Guy (Mar 20, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> Like I've said, I've never been approached, or offered even a hand in friendship from girls. Ever. No interest of any kind. Maybe it's because I'm too quiet, and like a brick wall in public sometimes. But I'm not going to chat up random strangers on the street, that's just not my style.
> 
> But the thing about no interest, no connections, approached, etc., that's a dark fact of my life.


Why was it, that, when I was in high school, even pathetic, ****** , ****** *****ds, like me, had some attention from girls, but you haven't ?
As I recall correctly, they, yes, THEY, american girls, even sang little songs to me in the classroom (you are so beautiful to meeeee), just to make me talk to them... (only I didn't want to talk to anyone, I hated them all)

I think you're not telling the whole story, or just trying to present yourself as a victim...


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

shynesshellasucks said:


> Why is there less attractive girls then?


Because when a girl is above average looking, she learns from a young age that she can get any man she wants. Online dating isn't necessary for this type of girl, because she's already in the dating mix, she's already either been in relationships or is currently in one.

The only reason you ever see an attractive girl on an online dating site, which is very rare, is so she can boost her ego just by seeing how many messages she can get.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Actually, I see more people socially connected in America than ever before. 

Facebook is a great example. I've gotten back in touch with so many of my friends from high school, that I haven't seen for 7 years or more, and gotten to learn all about their lives. They invite me to parties, and if I'm not feeling afraid or socially anxious that day, I'll go. Many times, I have a really good time.

Just today, I arranged a family get together with an old family friend. We're meeting up and going to see a live musician, who, by all standards, is really good. I have his cd.

All it took was posting back and forth among the internet, and I arranged an event. Something that would have taken much more effort, had it not been for the internet.

Stranger, I can't argue with you. You're going to believe your "true forced loneliness" crapola as long as you wish. I wish I could take my experiences, and show you that it isn't true, but of course I can't. You're not me, and I'm not you. 

However, I will continue trying to better my life, and get past this hump of virginity and romantic inexperience, so that I can fit in better. You, I hope you get to the point where you won't be so down on yourself. You're much too young to give up, at your age I was going to parties and getting drunk (I didn't develop SA until age 23.)


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Some Russian Guy said:


> Why was it, that, when I was in high school, even pathetic, ****** , ****** *****ds, like me, had some attention from girls, but you haven't ?
> As I recall correctly, they, yes, THEY, american girls, even sang little songs to me in the classroom (you are so beautiful to meeeee), just to make me talk to them... (only I didn't want to talk to anyone, I hated them all)
> 
> I think you're not telling the whole story, or just trying to present yourself as a victim...


It's true man. I was always invisible to them...

Also, I dropped out of high school after 1 year, but I got a ged afterwards but still. Ever since I was a little kid I was nothing to them.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

IcemanKilmer said:


> .The only reason you ever see an attractive girl on an online dating site, which is very rare, is so she can boost her ego just by seeing how many messages she can get.


Attractive women have self-esteem issues as well. Some are virgins and have never been in a relationship regardless of their attention level. This statement is unfair.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

stranger25 said:


> It's true man. I was always invisible to them...


I've seen your picture, I think.

If I have, and I remember correctly, you have classically attractive features, stylish hair, and a well shaped face.

Maybe you could do something with that?


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> I don't think your problem is that you're quiet, stranger. I think the problem is that you're scared.


Quiet and scared are the same thing here. Both are problems.

Aren't you stating the obvious here, lol? Any guy that is on this site is quiet and scared, it's called having SAD.

I also think it's unfair what you are suggesting. You are suggesting he do something he's not comfortable doing and be something that he's not, in order to please other people. Why can't he just be comfortable and be shy? Why is that such a crime?

What happened to all the talk about not changing who you are and being satisfied with who you are as a person?


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

What good are looks when everything else sucks?


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

stranger25 said:


> What good are looks when everything else sucks?


A hello or simple greeting you might expect with dating sites. Im not ugly but girls still judge other areas I guess. but than again it could be that im not at their phyiscal attractive level. I dont know so I cant really say much. All i can do is get there attention.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> Attractive women have self-esteem issues as well. Some are virgins and have never been in a relationship regardless of their attention level. This statement is unfair.


Wow, you are talking about a tiny percentage, buddy. A very very tiny percentage.

Especially women my age.

My statement was accurate.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

IcemanKilmer said:


> Quiet and scared are the same thing here. Both are problems.
> 
> Aren't you stating the obvious here, lol? Any guy that is on this site is quiet and scared, it's called having SAD.
> 
> ...


Quiet and scared are not the same thing.

Someone who's quiet is content with not having to shout. He is content with being who he is, and having people dig into who he is, rather than shout who he is over everyone else.

Someone who's scared is not content with who he is. He wouldn't shout even if his life depended on it, he would be too scared to. He just wants to be left alone, and everyone leaves him alone, because they recognize he's scared of them.

Someone who's socially anxious is presenting himself, along with what I call a "shield of discomfort." That's what I consider my SA, and panic attacks. I am confident and social, except when I have this "shield of discomfort", which hides my confidence and social skills, and makes me appear to be something I'm not. Then I become exactly what I fear, instead of being what I want to be or what I am.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

and then when I do tell people this stuff in real life, they act all sorry and suprised, it's so weird and depressing.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

IcemanKilmer said:


> Wow, you are talking about a tiny percentage, buddy. A very very tiny percentage.
> 
> Especially women my age.
> 
> My statement was accurate.


Your statement is false, buddy. You assume all pretty women are on online dating sites for attention. Your clearly biased.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> What good are looks when everything else sucks?


Looks aren't just your facial and body features, it's your _body language_, too. The minute most women see that you are shy, they want nothing to do with you.

The worst is when they see your shy body language and they don't even want to be your friend and they ignore you. Women do that a lot more than men do.


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## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)




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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> Your statement is false, buddy. You assume all pretty women are on online dating sites for attention. Your clearly biased.


You do realize about 2-3% percent of online dating women I would define as attractive?


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I am through arguing.

I will take Iceman's advice, and put him and stranger on ignore. Along with all the rest of the negative nancies.

There's something to be said about ranting and expressing your feelings, but when you go in a circle and nobody is listening, you might as well be banging your head against a wall.

In a year, I'll probably laugh, because I will have a girlfriend. Or sometime in my life, I'll look back at this period of time and laugh at how stupid I was acting.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

IcemanKilmer said:


> You do realize about 2-3% percent of online dating women I would define as attractive?


You must have some ridiculously high standards. This also makes your comments opinion and not fact as you seem to believe.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

Ospi said:


> You must have some ridiculously high standards. This also makes your comments opinion and not fact as you seem to believe.


haha, everybody keeps telling me that on here. "You have high standards."

Like I said before, I've been on college campuses and found plenty of women attractive. When I'm walking on the street or driving around, I see plenty of women jogging or walking that are attractive. Then, I get on those online dating sites and find practically none of the women on there attractive.

Why is that so hard for you to believe that online dating women aren't attractive? It's the women that couldn't get dates in the first place, and let me tell you, not being able to get a date when you are woman is not an easy thing to do. It's almost a guarantee that you are either barely average looking or lower.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

^ Once again, there is a false notion that dating sites are for the unsuccessful. Maybe more convenient, but not necessarily unsuccessful.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

Isn't this 'conclusion' just a hypothesis?


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> ^ Once again, there is a false notion that dating sites are for the unsuccessful. Maybe more convenient, but not necessarily unsuccessful.


If what you said was true, everyone would use online dating.....and they don't.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

IcemanKilmer said:


> If what you said was true, everyone would use online dating.....and they don't.


There are busy people who do not have the time to spend a weekend out making new connections or going to bars or events. There are those who are so isolated they find using online brings in a broader selection than their local town hall. Really, the reasons are numerous why people use dating sites regardless of how successful they can be. Someone not presented with the time nor population to meet someone else does not make them unsuccessful at dating.

I think your either in denial or under a wall of pride you don't want to overlook, or you simply do not know any better, which I can understand. With that said, I feel I said my peace and I'll exit this conversation for the sake of repeating myself.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

I'm almost convinced you are trolling now tbh.


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## mcmuffinme (Mar 12, 2010)

Having a job is nice just to show that you're not mooching off your parents like a total douche. (Although, if it was for reasons related to SA I'd let it slide because lord knows I understand that struggle). Hopefully it's a little better than McDonald's, but honestly I don't think most girls put as much emphasis on your wallet as you think we do. I can go to college and get a masters or doctorate and buy me all the material crap my heart desires, which it honestly doesn't, because I'm a total cheapskate, lol. Any girl that expects you to have extra cash on hand is a spoiled brat that is generally too lazy to earn the money it takes to buy the asinine crap they want.

and I don't care for traditional gender role crap, either. if you hold the door open for me i see it as a courtesy you would provide any other human being, male or female, just because it is a nice thing to do.



> Women have the advantage because they don't need looks


are you kidding?

I said crap a lot in this one post...not one of my more articulate days >.>


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## Lateralus (Oct 28, 2007)

IcemanKilmer said:


> Like I said before, I've been on college campuses and found plenty of women attractive. When I'm walking on the street or driving around, I see plenty of women jogging or walking that are attractive. Then, I get on those online dating sites and find practically none of the women on there attractive.


I wouldn't say practically none, but I agree that it's relatively few. I would say I usually see more attractive girls in a trip to the grocery store than I saw browsing dating sites, and my standards were not high. But that should be expected, most attractive people don't need to resort to online dating sites because people without SA find them in real life:lol (So there are probably not many good looking guys on there either).


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## beethoven (Jan 17, 2011)

This is just the nature of the competitive world we live in. If you really want a good career, what do you do? You invest time and effort in your professional skills. If you don't care about the benefits of a good career, then you just don't put in the effort. Some people have it easier career-wise too. Maybe they inherited a good family business, got a better education, etc. 

Is it unfair? Of course it is. We are all grown-ups and know that we live in a profoundly sick and unfair world. But your conditions are only immutable if you think they are. Many people improve, evolve, overcome their limitations and get what they want, despite the unfavorable odds. It seems like you're waiting to be approached by girls without offering any value or giving them a good reason to do so. 

How many companies call you offering jobs? If you want a job, you have to, first, qualify yourself and then "convince" them you are a good hire. The dating world works just the same. Females are "commodities" in most species and males do need to compete for them. In humans, courtship plays even a bigger role, as it is believed to be the reason our brains got so complex. It is what it is. You have to accept reality and act strategically. Certain things cannot be changed, so work with what can be changed. 

Overall women have it easier as far as having more opportunities, I agree, but that doesn't mean they don't compete amongst themselves to get the men they want. We live in a monogamous society after all.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

beethoven said:


> This is just the nature of the competitive world we live in. If you really want a good career, what do you do? You invest time and effort in your professional skills. If you don't care about the benefits of a good career, then you just don't put in the effort. Some people have it easier career-wise too. Maybe they inherited a good family business, got a better education, etc.
> 
> Is it unfair? Of course it is. We are all grown-ups and know that we live in a profoundly sick and unfair world. But your conditions are only immutable if you think they are. Many people improve, evolve, overcome their limitations and get what they want, despite the unfavorable odds. It seems like you're waiting to be approached by girls without offering any value or giving them a good reason to do so.
> 
> ...


I agree. It seems a lot of people in here like to whine and wave their white flags around. It seems like they want for everything to fall on their lap, without putting an effort to change, or work to get it.


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## rickthegreat (Dec 22, 2008)

I think the huge mistake in stranger25's posts is that he bases everything on the assumption that life is fair. Or that it's supposed to be. In every facet of life. Did he not get the memo? Assuming everything he wrote is true (which I don't think is the case), I'm just really curious what stranger25 is going to do about it. He made his case. OK. So life sucks. Now what? Stranger25?


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

^ He doesn't do anything but complain. That is his existence.

Do yourself a favor, and put him on ignore, like I did.


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## KennethJones (Jun 22, 2009)

WintersTale said:


> ^ He doesn't do anything but complain. That is his existence.
> 
> Do yourself a favor, and put him on ignore, like I did.


why would you want to do that? Stranger25 is one of the best posters on this site. He exposes aspects of reality that very few talk about and puts it into simple terms so most can understand.

Put stranger on ignore? Why? Are you afraid of reality?


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

I think stranger25 has some legitimate points, but like R the G wrote, where does any of it lead? Not that it has to lead anywhere, but by relentlessly pounding on these somewhat valid points and exaggerating their impact, he and several other men on here seem intent on diminishing their own lives. 

Seems oddly familiar to me, too.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

KennethJones said:


> Are you afraid of reality?


That's a great question, and the answer is yes for most people on this planet.

What sucks about human nature, is we are designed to always want to believe that things are fair and possible.

Most people don't want to believe that something is negative and/or unfair because that gives them anxiety, and they are afraid of looking at that part of life that is negative/unfair in a new light.

Their solution, often without even thinking about it, is to find some way to get rid of that depressive thought that something is unfair. It's a defense mechanism to try to push away depression or anxiety.

What's very interesting is there are a minority of people like Hoca, me, KennethJones and Stranger25 that aren't afraid to realize unfair truths. Why are we able to do that?

I would say it may have to do with having such a bad life, that I've developed a thick skin for negative and unfair things. Hoca brought up a reasonable possibility, that we have "freakish genetics." By that he meant we are blessed with the ability to find the truth when most people allow themselves to be blinded by other factors (defending their sex, avoiding anxiety, avoiding anything negative, avoiding thoughts that something may be unfair).

I believe we are able to look directly at the issue, and avoid issues outside the issue that allow other people to alter to the truth to their own needs.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

shynesshellasucks said:


> without putting an effort to change


This is what I don't get. I see so many people on here that tell me I don't need to change myself for other people, then I have people like you telling me I need to change for other people.

So which one is it, lol? You all are telling me to do two totally different things.


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## Chris16 (Nov 1, 2010)

IcemanKilmer said:


> This is what I don't get. I see so many people on here that tell me I don't need to change myself for other people, then I have people like you telling me I need to change for other people.
> 
> So which one is it, lol? You all are telling me to do two totally different things.


I'm just trying to understand something here, not tell you what to do because I don't know either, but would you prefer to not be shy? Is it something you like about yourself, or are you just indifferent to it?

You always say that a shy guy choosing to become social and an effective conversationalist is changing who you really are to be accepted, as if you're offended by the idea of doing that. That's just puzzling to me. I do understand that idea in one sense though.

Say you had a guy who was an introvert because he genuinely wanted to be, and didn't talk because he didn't enjoy talking; this man doesn't really feel lonely, and is comfortable with himself except for one thing. He feels weird about not having friends, and changes his attitude to more a social one only because he feels odd not being part of the extrovert majority. His choice to change was not a reflection of his true desires and his true self.

But if that shy guy actually was lonely, and wanted to change not just to fit in but because he truly wanted intimacy, he would not be changing who he really was to develop conversational skills, because in that case his choices are reflecting his true desires and he's finding his _real_ comfort zone. I am the second guy here (minus the successful transformation), and I most certainly do not feel like I'm being who I really am when I freeze up and fail to show to others my personality.

Why would you be offended at the idea of changing yourself if that change was something you really wanted for yourself, not just for the pleasure of others?


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

IcemanKilmer said:


> If what you said was true, everyone would use online dating.....and they don't.


There is still a stigma attached to online dating. And if you wanted to find someone more attractive than you find on the sites, you have to go flirt and do things. Even if it isn't fair, reality isn't fair, so you can rebel and wait, or accept it.

I have a feeling some people take you the wrong way though, you seem like you are venting not really anything more.

I do think there are different challenges and sometimes individual women may have more trouble then the average male due to circumstances beyond their control.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

Chris16 said:


> Why would you be offended at the idea of changing yourself if that change was something you really wanted for yourself, not just for the pleasure of others?


I know this sounds confusing, and I understand if some of you don't quite understand what I'm trying to say. Your post didn't really answer my question, but instead gave me a question, which I will answer.

Why should I not have to change myself? Because I have a shy personality. When people tell me to go and walk up to people like that, you are telling me to do something that I'm not comfortable doing. I have walked up to people before, and tried to start conversations, and I did not like it, even after doing it numerous times. In fact, it got worse. It made me feel even more socially inept.

When you tell me to stop being shy, that's telling me that I can't be my personality. Is that who I am as a person? Yes, I believe it is. I am a shy person. Am I comfortable being shy? Yes, believe it or not, I am. I don't like talking to people I don't know. I like keeping to myself most of the time, I always have been that way. I even avoid talking to my parents most of the time.

Let's face it, what most of you are telling me is, "Don't be shy." Well, you know what, I'm comfortable being shy, and I have a right to be shy. Are you telling me shy people don't deserve friends that are women, that they don't deserve g/fs either?


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

IcemanKilmer said:


> I know this sounds confusing, and I understand if some of you don't quite understand what I'm trying to say. Your post didn't really answer my question, but instead gave me a question, which I will answer.
> 
> Why should I not have to change myself? Because I have a shy personality. When people tell me to go and walk up to people like that, you are telling me to do something that I'm not comfortable doing. I have walked up to people before, and tried to start conversations, and I did not like it, even after doing it numerous times. In fact, it got worse. It made me feel even more socially inept.
> 
> ...


What they are saying is the fact that you are shy and it is hard for you to go up and talk to people will make it more difficult. And it is hard, which is why women let men do it most of the time. It may not be right or fair but there really isn't anything you can do about it. So online dating is good for you, sending a message to someone is much easier. You may not have the most attractive person, but there are attractive women that are shy, but i mean people don't always date people they are physically attracted to, that can and does come later in many cases.

You can be as picky as you want and you can not go up to women and you can not send messages, but if you do that the reality is it will be much harder for you. And it is basically you can vent and complain about it or you can do something about it and make the effort. It is up to you.

You shouldn't do or change if you don't want to, but the world won't change either.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

nmpennea said:


> So online dating is good for you, sending a message to someone is much easier. You may not have the most attractive person, but there are attractive women that are shy, but i mean people don't always date people they are physically attracted to, that can and does come later in many cases.


In short, what you are telling me to do is settle for a woman I'm not attracted to. I'm sorry, but no. That is so unfair. Other more outgoing guys get to find women they are physically attracted to, but I have to settle for a woman I'm not even attracted to just because I'm shy?

Part of being attracted to a woman is being physically attracted to her. I'm not going to date a woman that I'm not physically attracted to. That makes no sense, and I can't believe anyone else would do that.

I'd rather die a virgin than do what you're telling me to do. I'd rather be alone than settle for a woman I'm not attracted to.


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

Er there are many attractive and beautiful girls on dating sites that I have seen. Don't know why people are saying there are not.... Some of you are sounding very judgemental, when maybe you haven't even been on a date or anything before. Meet girls from the internet. Its good.


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

1. The odds are highly against anyone (male or female) finding a lasting relationship through an online dating site. This is not a recent phenomenon. It has been this way since the advent of computer dating back in the 60s. It didn't work then and it didn't work for video dating in the 80s. Give it up.

2. Don't blame women for your own problems. You are venting your own frustration on a site for people who have an emotional mental disorder which you have as well. Work on overcoming your own problems before inflicting them on an unwitting partner. Do not harbor the idea that all your problems will magically disappear by having sex. Sex changes nothing as far as your emotional state goes. Losing one's virginity gives a temporary high that only lasts a couple of days at most. Then you're right back where you started.

3. If by chance you feel that you are sufficiently over your SA that you feel it's time to start a relationship, turn off the damn computer and go out to places where you will have something in common with the opposite gender. Talk to them. Get to know them. Ask them out on a date.

4. If all that you want is sex then go to a bar. You will still have to talk to a girl. She may still reject you. Do not blame her for it if she does. You may just not be her type. If she does then say OK and move on. If they all say no by the end of the evening, then go home and watch some porn. Try again on another night.

5. Do not blame women for your problems. They have their own problems that have nothing to do with you. It is not easier for them than it is for you. It is only different. They still have to go out and meet guys. They still have to build a relationship.

and finally,

*6. STOP BLAMING WOMEN FOR YOU OWN PROBLEMS!*


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## Fenren (Sep 20, 2009)

Hey good advice Amocholes 

I'll just add that I know how frustrating it can be Stranger25, but you need to be more proactive. No good waiting for the girl to make the first move on dating sites or real life. Not all women are the same, or desire the same thing. It may be harder in your local area in the US to actually find someone for you, it's hard around here anyway. I feel that having SA issues can warp things though, maybe it's really not as bleak as it seems.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I agree with Amocholes.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

andy1984 said:


> Some of you are sounding very judgemental, when maybe you haven't even been on a date or anything before.


I have been on a date before.

Why does everything people say try to blame the guy when he questions fairness in the dating world?

Andy, you don't even know me, and you assume I have no dating or g/f experience. I've both been on a date and had a g/f.

What you are trying to do, is find some reason why I may be wrong because it doesn't fit with your fair view of the world. I'm sorry, but the world is not fair. If the world was fair then we wouldn't have wars, natural disasters and terrorism. But unfortunately, we do have unfair things in life.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Amocholes said:


> 5. Do not blame women for your problems. They have their own problems that have nothing to do with you. *It is not easier for them than it is for you. It is only different.* They still have to go out and meet guys. They still have to build a relationship.


Well _I_, for one, am convinced now. Declarative statements with no rational justification whatsoever FTW.


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

IcemanKilmer said:


> In short, what you are telling me to do is settle for a woman I'm not attracted to. I'm sorry, but no. That is so unfair. Other more outgoing guys get to find women they are physically attracted to, but I have to settle for a woman I'm not even attracted to just because I'm shy?
> 
> Part of being attracted to a woman is being physically attracted to her. I'm not going to date a woman that I'm not physically attracted to. That makes no sense, and I can't believe anyone else would do that.
> 
> I'd rather die a virgin than do what you're telling me to do. I'd rather be alone than settle for a woman I'm not attracted to.


No I said that some people do, not you should.
And that you may not end up with a supermodel, most people don'.
Well that was the idea behind it.

And I also said you didn't have to do anything about it.
If you don't want to be proactive then don't.
But women won't come to you, you have to make an effort.
You are very shy and seemingly negative (I may be wrong), and women will not go up to someone who seems like they don't want to be spoken to. 
YOu may be putting up a barrier accidently.

And women can't just sit around and wait, men usually don't randomly pick up women who are shy and seem uninterested. Well some try, but usually those aren't the guys you want to be with. Women and men have to be receptive to dating.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

IcemanKilmer said:


> I have been on a date before.
> 
> Why does everything people say try to blame the guy when he questions fairness in the dating world?
> 
> ...


If the world is so unfair, and you know it already, then why are you complaining about there being a stereotype with men and dating?

You already know that the world is unfair, so it's not news to you. :um

Anyway, there are always girls who go against the norm. And those are the girls you should aim for dating.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

nmpennea said:


> And women can't just sit around and wait, men usually don't randomly pick up women who are shy and seem uninterested.


I'm sorry, I totally disagree with that. It's ridiculous the difference between a shy girl and a shy guy. Gender roles are set up so shy women don't even have to do anything except show up.

Most men are way more aggressive than women, and yes, they will just walk up to the woman and initiate conversation. I've known shy women that never had any kind of problems with having men come up to them.

The difference between genders in dating is entirely different.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> If the world is so unfair, and you know it already, then why are you complaining about there being a stereotype with men and dating?
> 
> You already know that the world is unfair, so it's not news to you. :um
> 
> Anyway, there are always girls who go against the norm. And those are the girls you should aim for dating.


Because people keep telling me I'm wrong. Also, because there are shy men on here that see what I have to say, and it helps them understand that it's not all their fault.

It's easy to think it's all your fault when you are a guy because society is set up against men in dating, so many people will try to blame the guy for whatever his dating issue is. All these shy men don't deserve to have to carry the weight of full blame for dating struggles.

There are women who go against the norm, I always try to use the use the word, most, in my posts, because that's what I am always talking about is most women. You say there are few who go against the norm, well if that is a small percentage, then you are looking for a needle in a haystack. Add that to the fact that a shy guy has less opportunities than the average male, which is usually the case, and it makes it that much harder to find a woman, or even be friends with a woman.


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

IcemanKilmer said:


> I'm sorry, I totally disagree with that. It's ridiculous the difference between a shy girl and a shy guy. Gender roles are set up so shy women don't even have to do anything except show up.
> 
> Most men are way more aggressive than women, and yes, they will just walk up to the woman and initiate conversation. I've known shy women that never had any kind of problems with having men come up to them.
> 
> The difference between genders in dating is entirely different.


I have gone on dates with shy guys before, I have been the one that goes up to them. I think it is just your negativity that keeps women away.

Maybe you send a leave me alone vibe.

I used to do it, so men would never approach me. And I didn't mean to.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

nmpennea said:


> I have gone on dates with shy guys before, I have been the one that goes up to them. I think it is just your negativity that keeps women away.
> 
> Maybe you send a leave me alone vibe.
> 
> I used to do it, so men would never approach me. And I didn't mean to.


I probably do send a leave me alone vibe. But don't all shy people do that?


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

No they don't. It isn't your fault. It is probably from your SA, I think a lot of people with SA do that. Women will come up to you, you just have to seem like you are receptive to it. You also have to go to places where you can be approached. 

I do wish you luck, and men and women have different challenges in dating. I may not agree with you on your conclusion, but I can see how frustrating it is.

I am a shy girl so I understand how hard it is to go up to someone, but being approached is also unnerving sometimes.

It is just a difficult situation and if you work on having a more positive outlook it may help your odds. 

Therapy and positivity helped me with the approaching and being approached.

But everyone is different. If you are out in the work place, people will naturally talk to you and if you make one friend you will make more and you can meet people through that.

Dating is especially terrible for shy people.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

nmpennea said:


> It isn't your fault.


Even I don't 100% agree with that. I think it's partially my fault.

The reason why is I feel that I could have gone out more during my life. Hoca says, "You need to go out more," is a shaming tactic, but I disagree. It's a correct observation when someone says you need to go out more, and it explains at least part of the reason why many people, male or female, are having trouble getting a date.

I still say I was mostly forced into this besides my own failure to go out enough, though. Society and gender roles do not favor the shy male, especially if he is very shy like I am. I don't blame women, they didn't choose their biological and social desires necessarily, so I can't really hold them responsible. They are doing what makes them comfortable (not approaching me). It's not like they need me, because there are so many other men out there they can talk to, so I do get why they wouldn't bother approaching me, I am kind of meaningless to them.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

IcemanKilmer said:


> Even I don't 100% agree with that. I think it's partially my fault.
> 
> The reason why is I feel that I could have gone out more during my life. Hoca says, "You need to go out more," is a shaming tactic, but I disagree. It's a correct observation when someone says you need to go out more, and it explains at least part of the reason why many people, male or female, are having trouble getting a date.
> 
> I still say I was mostly forced into this besides my own failure to go out enough, though. Society and gender roles do not favor the shy male, especially if he is very shy like I am. I don't blame women, they didn't choose their biological and social desires necessarily, so I can't really hold them responsible. They are doing what makes them comfortable (not approaching me). It's not like they need me, because there are so many other men out there they can talk to, so I do get why they wouldn't bother approaching me, I am kind of meaningless to them.


And then, sometimes guys have experiences with girls handed to them on a silver platter. :|

I wish I knew what guys like us are doing. I know I need to go out more, but I have SA. I have SA, because I don't go out. A link here?


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

It's so weird how I keep getting all these 9/10 girls looking at my profile and not messaging me. Maybe if I put the income box on 200k salary I'll get messages?


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

stranger25 said:


> It's so weird how I keep getting all these 9/10 girls looking at my profile and not messaging me. Maybe if I put the income box on 200k salary I'll get messages?


Why don't you try messaging them?


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## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

stranger25 said:


> It's so weird how I keep getting all these 9/10 girls looking at my profile and not messaging me. Maybe if I put the income box on 200k salary I'll get messages?


Do it!

For science!


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

stranger25 said:


> It's so weird how I keep getting all these 9/10 girls looking at my profile and not messaging me. Maybe if I put the income box on 200k salary I'll get messages?


Put in 200k and if they actually hit you up, tell tem that you were talking in Zimbabwean dollar terms.


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## OpiodArmor (Jun 15, 2011)

Jesus Christ lol, relax. Does this really shock you?

NO WAY! Your telling me men like... have to... COMPETE FOR FEMALE ATTENTION?! Holy ****! You gotta get these findings OUT THERE BRO! People GOTTA KNOW!


lol what the Hell? Of course girls have a easier time when it comes to picking / choosing a man compared to a man getting a girl. Thats called social evolution good sir. 

But dont worry! In compensation society has decided you will always start off making more money / be seen as a more important part of the workplace + areas of finance and authority! I got a IDEA BRO! Lets take this advantage and work hard to get LOTS OF **** so we can impress the ladies!

Oh... wait...


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

It's just sad to me how it's gotten to the point where a guy (even a 20 year old guy!!!!!????) needs to be a millionaire or some kind of wall street CEO with a car, a mansion, and tattoos just to talk to a girl. Perhaps it's the times we are living in.

This society needs to be lobotomized.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

stranger25 said:


> It's just sad to me how it's gotten to the point where a guy (even a 20 year old guy!!!!!????) needs to be a millionaire or some kind of wall street CEO with a car, a mansion, and tattoos just to talk to a girl. Perhaps it's the times we are living in.
> 
> This society needs to be lobotomized.


What the hell are you talking about? Seriously.


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## rickthegreat (Dec 22, 2008)

Stranger25, I wish you would get a new "mentor". I wish you would stop watching those videos. I mean hyperbole is one thing, and maybe I taking you too seriously but your math just doesn't add up. Wallstreet CEOs etc, would make up what? 2% But let's just say heck, 20%. So everyone else can't talk to a girl? I only come here once in a while but you must be just trying to get a rise out people right? It works though I guess. Bah! I can't believe I argued the math. I'm such a sucker for an argument! I'm tempted to take your side just for the sake of an argument. I'll take both sides. :b


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## StevenGlansberg (Apr 1, 2009)

rdrr said:


> What the hell are you talking about? Seriously.


This.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

rickthegreat said:


> Stranger25, I wish you would get a new "mentor". I wish you would stop watching those videos. I mean hyperbole is one thing, and maybe I taking you too seriously but your math just doesn't add up. Wallstreet CEOs etc, would make up what? 2% But let's just say heck, 20%. So everyone else can't talk to a girl? I only come here once in a while but you must be just trying to get a rise out people right? It works though I guess. Bah! I can't believe I argued the math. I'm such a sucker for an argument! I'm tempted to take your side just for the sake of an argument. I'll take both sides. :b


This whole thing just amazes me. That's all.


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## rickthegreat (Dec 22, 2008)

stranger25 said:


> This whole thing just amazes me. That's all.


But you can see why it irks people right? But I asked a question a while back, maybe you can answer it. Although I think you already have in your profile messages. Things being what they are, what are you going to do about it? You've conceded that you're going to have to go out haven't you? To bars etc? I assume that you also think that you'll have to message people online, approach women offline? You're just really mad at how unfair it all is right?


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

I guess, but I'm also amazed at how much of a problem this is today for alot of guys. I read all these huge blogs with 4,000 comments from guys saying they have bad experiences with plentyoffish and all those sites. But yes, I do find it pretty challenging and indifferent.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

What confuses me is that Steve Hoca has a wife, right? So he's no longer incel, right?

How did he get her, if all the stuff he spews is true?


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

A lot of women just want people to have a job. That is all I want. I don't care if it is a minimum wage job. For me even unemployment would be okay as long as it wasn't a life long plan. And I am pretty sure I am not in the minority. Women don't want lazy people would no goals in life, I would expect the same view from men towards women.

I may be wrong, but from my limited scope of the world, I seem to be right.

Now I am not saying money would not be nice, but that isn't the most important thing.


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

I do have a job, i work 30 hours a week for just over minimum wage, and I am in school full time, I am about to graduate in unrealistic to expect more of people than you yourself are willing to put forward. All I ask is not permanent unemployment and I mean there are exceptions, like if one day I am married and doing so well that the person wants to be a house husband that is fine with me, take care of kids, clean, and all of that. That would be wonderful for me, because I do not want to have to be the one that stays home, but at this point in my life me being with someone who has no intention of being employed or is unemployed is stupid. Eventually things may move forward and two incomes may be needed. 

I am not the exception either. Most women my age work or at least are in school. If men are okay with a woman who doesn't want to work ever, that is their thing. They don't have to be and many aren't okay with women who are okay just staying unemployed forever with no aspirations.


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## bezoomny (Feb 10, 2007)

Women have the right to reject men for absolutely any reason. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

bezoomny said:


> Women have the right to reject men for absolutely any reason. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.


 I agree

Men do too, just because many don't doesn't mean women should change their expectations.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

So you're telling me that basically women have a right to have standards, and men don't. That's bold. See in my world, no gender is better than the other. Neither gets advantages. I think this will come true when the economy collapses.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

stranger25 said:


> So you're telling me that basically women have a right to have standards, and men don't. That's bold. See in my world, no gender is better than the other. Neither gets advantages. I think this will come true when the economy collapses.


Do you really not see that she said the opposite, that men have the right but don't exercise it?


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## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

We're all individuals with individual standards.


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## Donnie in the Dark (Mar 15, 2011)

I advise you to just give up on these sites.
You clearly are not enjoying them. They are lowering your self esteem and making you bitter. Just stop using them altogether. 
And try not to lump all "men" and "women" together.


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## nmpennea (May 16, 2011)

Atticus said:


> Do you really not see that she said the opposite, that men have the right but don't exercise it?


I honestly think he doesn't.


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## njodis (Nov 8, 2006)

Reading these threads is akin to watching someone punch themselves in the face repeatedly, day after day without fail.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

_IcemanKilmer: What I'm trying to say is a woman doesn't even know how much money you have right off the bat in most cases. _

Unless you are doing online dating. Had to add that.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I don't think it matters that much, to some extent.

If you are good looking, you can get away with being poor. If you are rich, you can get away with being ugly.

Bottom line is, women are usually very irrational creatures, and you shouldn't try to rationalize their behavior. You'll go crazy trying to understand it.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

Well I'm an average/decent/good whatever looking guy and I'm not getting away with anything.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

stranger25 said:


> Well I'm an average/decent/good whatever looking guy and I'm not getting away with anything.


Touche.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

stranger25 said:


> Well I'm an average/decent/good whatever looking guy and I'm not getting away with anything.


 thats because we are AFC's. Im not ugly either.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

WintersTale said:


> Bottom line is, women are usually very irrational creatures, and you shouldn't try to rationalize their behavior. You'll go crazy trying to understand it.


Oh come on, reeeally?


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

Why put women on a pedestal for?


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

For most of us guys, we just need to come to the conclusion that dating is going to be a struggle and more than likely we will have a very large rejection rate no matter WHAT median we choose (online, in person, etc). I think a problem lies when we think that won't be the case and we get rejected. Just expect it and learn not to take it personally.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

bezoomny said:


> Women have the right to reject men for absolutely any reason. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.


And men have the right to judge them for it.


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## wmw87 (Apr 20, 2011)

stranger25,

I think your problem is that you fail to understand women. And that can be remedied. What I am suggesting is that you spend a month playing the role of a female, and then use this experience to help you later successfully pursue them. (Perhaps for a hot sweaty night of angry ranting about society?)

I guess what I'm saying is, would you like to be my girlfriend?

trust me this could work.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

wmw87 said:


> stranger25,
> 
> I think your problem is that you fail to understand women. And that can be remedied. What I am suggesting is that you spend a month playing the role of a female, and then use this experience to help you later successfully pursue them. (Perhaps for a hot sweaty night of angry ranting about society?)
> 
> ...


OK, this is the best idea probably in the history of the internet. Such wisdom from one so young. I'm moved.


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## rickthegreat (Dec 22, 2008)

wmw87 said:


> stranger25,
> 
> I think your problem is that you fail to understand women. And that can be remedied. What I am suggesting is that you spend a month playing the role of a female, and then use this experience to help you later successfully pursue them. (Perhaps for a hot sweaty night of angry ranting about society?)
> 
> ...


Atticus I like the way you think. Hell ya it could work. I have so many questions though. Will he have to wear a dress? Will you be gentle with him? Do you adhere to conventional gender roles? Are you romantic? Do you smoke? Can *I* be your man-girlfriend? Will this be your first man-girlfriend or have you done this before? Will you talk dirty to me? Can you cook? Can *I* cook? Do you like cats? Dogs? Corduroy? If I'm your man-girlfriend, does that make you my man-boyfriend? Will you introduce me as your man-girlfriend to everyone? Will we have hot sweaty nights of angry ranting about society? Do you have any other man-girlfriends? I mean will this be monogamous? Jeez man. Details! I think we can iron out some kind of deal here but *you gotta meet me halfway* man! Can I have some time to think about it? :b

I think stranger25 will come around. I wanna go beat that guy in those videos and drop him in the desert though. No wait, in a bar. Who's with me? Gag him? Throw him in the back of a van? Anyone got a van?


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

*This thread is closed.*


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## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

Amocholes said:


> *This thread is closed.*


Orrrr...

IS IT?!

Mwahahahahaha!!!


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

Amocholes said:


> *This thread is closed.*


Hey everyone, the mods are broken! Let's go nuts! :evil


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

I think we got us some Ann Archy right here on this website :boogie:boogie


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

This thread is obviously out of control. 

We need a crossdressing policewoman to put it back in it's place.


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## rickthegreat (Dec 22, 2008)

Are you calling Amocholes a cross-dressing policewoman?


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

rickthegreat said:


> Are you calling Amocholes a cross-dressing policewoman?


You said it, not me! 

:teeth


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

*I was interrupted. It is now closed.*


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

And I haven't worn a dress in several years although I do wear a kilt upon occasion.


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