# parnate



## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

just got a prescription for parnate. after a trek to 4 different pharmacies, i finally got it filled. it's 930 pm...too late to take the first one tonight?


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

I anticipate you will be keeping this thread updated regularly, even if you shed your SA :b, and, accordingly, I will be be following it closely. All the best, BB


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## korey (Apr 25, 2006)

Parnate is quite stimulating, so you should probably wait until tomorrow morning before taking your first dose.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

BusterBluth said:


> I anticipate you will be keeping this thread updated regularly, even if you shed your SA :b, and, accordingly, I will be be following it closely. All the best, BB


Of course. How'd you know BB? You're my favorite dude on here, no ****. I'll keep it updated.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

I'd really love to hear how this works out for you


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

I would space the doses out throughout the day, that way you reap all the benefits of its acute dopamine release.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

So far just increased anxiety....:boogie


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

yeah at first it makes you feel like crap. it took a couple days for the weird feeling to go away....probably just the same as the weird feeling when starting SSRIs. something ive been wondering about: since Parnate has a half life of about 2.5 hours (according to wikipedia)....does that mean if one wanted to acheive more MAO inhibition (by taking more than one 10mg tablet) youd have to take all the tablets at once? because if you take them spaced out throughout the day, only a small brain level would be maintained, but its the high acute level that determines the amount of MAO inhibition? if it permanetly destroys MAO


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> yeah at first it makes you feel like crap. it took a couple days for the weird feeling to go away....probably just the same as the weird feeling when starting SSRIs. something ive been wondering about: since Parnate has a half life of about 2.5 hours (according to wikipedia)....does that mean if one wanted to acheive more MAO inhibition (by taking more than one 10mg tablet) youd have to take all the tablets at once? because if you take them spaced out throughout the day, only a small brain level would be maintained, but its the high acute level that determines the amount of MAO inhibition? if it permanetly destroys MAO


I think the general consensus is that the half life doesn't matter because MAO is inhibited for 2-3 weeks until you regenerate new enzymes. So unless you're underdosing in general, you wouldnt' see a difference other than side effects, etc. from the presence of more parnate.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

db0255 said:


> I think the general consensus is that the half life doesn't matter because MAO is inhibited for 2-3 weeks until you regenerate new enzymes. So unless you're underdosing in general, you wouldnt' see a difference other than side effects, etc. from the presence of more parnate.


:yes You can play around with your dosing schedule however you'd like without altering MAO inhibition, as long as the total daily dose remains the same. I didn't notice any difference (besides the time of day certain side effects appeared, like phenelzine-induced somnolence) in how I structured my dose when I was on Nardil and selegiline.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Definitely is doing something, what that is, I'm not sure yet....

*Side effects*: Non-existent...I feel more awake, no craving to sleep the day away...Random bouts of anxiety throughout the day is the only thing, but hardly crippling at all.

*Stimulating effects* Wish I could say it was like having cocaine run through your body...except for the fact that I've never done cocaine. Parnate feels like a caffeinated soda 24/7, although it's not at all hard to go to sleep.

*Price* Cheap as ****...seriously, it cost me 10 dollars.

I am slowly getting over the fear that anything I eat will secretly have high amounts of tyramine...lol. Although this severely curtails my love for snacking on chocolate, cheese, cookies, etc.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Anybody notice any hypnagogic sensory things on an MAOI? Never heard it talked about, and I definitely notice it. From what I gather, this wouldn't be far from normal considering MAOIs inhibit breakdown of DMT, and other weird chemicals like that?


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

did you get the generic version? if so, do you know what company manufactures it? (i.e. Teva, GSK)... i got the name brand because i thought the generic wouldnt work. if the generic works for you then i think im gonna try it because name brand is way to expensive, and my insurance doesn't cover name brand.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

if by hypnagogia you mean paranoia, and over-stimulation by sounds and visual images...i got that too. actually now that i think about it i do have a whole bunch of obvious changes/disturbances in my visual fields. i attributed it to Xanax withdrawal, but apparently it could be from Parnate. i sometimes see like dark flashes/weird stuff, and my sight gets muddled...like im sort of barely asleep, or similiar to when i stay up for extended periods of time.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> did you get the generic version? if so, do you know what company manufactures it? (i.e. Teva, GSK)... i got the name brand because i thought the generic wouldnt work. if the generic works for you then i think im gonna try it because name brand is way to expensive, and my insurance doesn't cover name brand.


Generic from Par.

Try the generic....why not, i mean the only thing that I think affects whether generic works for you or not, is if the half-life is longer, and having a steady dose of the medication is necessary...getting generic prozac, made me feel like ****, but i get generic ativan and i'm fine. so i think it working has more to do with the longer the medication acts and bioavailability


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

db0255 said:


> Generic from Par.
> 
> Try the generic....why not, i mean the only thing that I think affects whether generic works for you or not, is if the half-life is longer, and having a steady dose of the medication is necessary...getting generic prozac, made me feel like ****, but i get generic ativan and i'm fine. so i think it working has more to do with the longer the medication acts and bioavailability


...except bioavailability and half-life are both properties of the chemical compound, not the inactive ingredients. I can't see any reason why a brand name medication would work for someone but not the generic, unless it's a time-release formulation.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> ...except bioavailability and half-life are both properties of the chemical compound, not the inactive ingredients. I can't see any reason why a brand name medication would work for someone but not the generic, unless it's a time-release formulation.


All I know is that generics have to hit a range of bioavailabilities, and brand names are spot on. Prozac worked for me, but the generic gave me way more side effects and apathy. Bioavailability, from what I've seen, can be changed drastically by inert ingredients, i.e. they might change absorption rates. And the half-life concept, would just apply to how vulnerable the compound is to a changing bioavailability. If the half-life is small, then there wouldn't be that much chance for effing things up, if the half-life is large, then it's a bit different.

When I asked a pharmacist, he said he had never heard anyone have a problem with generic Paxil (short half-life), but a lot more complained about generic Prozac (large half-life). So, I don't know...just my two cents.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

db0255 said:


> All I know is that generics have to hit a range of bioavailabilities, and brand names are spot on. Prozac worked for me, but the generic gave me way more side effects and apathy. Bioavailability, from what I've seen, can be changed drastically by inert ingredients, i.e. they might change absorption rates. And the half-life concept, would just apply to how vulnerable the compound is to a changing bioavailability. If the half-life is small, then there wouldn't be that much chance for effing things up, if the half-life is large, then it's a bit different.
> 
> When I asked a pharmacist, he said he had never heard anyone have a problem with generic Paxil (short half-life), but a lot more complained about generic Prozac (large half-life). So, I don't know...just my two cents.


cool. i briefly considered letting the Parnate dissolve in my mouth to bypass any problems with bioavailability, but i will not bother with that anymore.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Anybody notice any hypnagogic sensory things on an MAOI? Never heard it talked about, and I definitely notice it. From what I gather, this wouldn't be far from normal considering MAOIs inhibit breakdown of DMT, and other weird chemicals like that?


I noticed some hypnagogic/sleep paralysis type stuff on occasion when I first started Strattera. They became less frequent and then went away completely after the first 3 months. The only good thing was that the WTF-anxiety went away in a couple minutes after I realized I was OK.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

db0255 said:


> All I know is that generics have to hit a range of bioavailabilities, and brand names are spot on. Prozac worked for me, but the generic gave me way more side effects and apathy. Bioavailability, from what I've seen, can be changed drastically by inert ingredients, i.e. they might change absorption rates. And the half-life concept, would just apply to how vulnerable the compound is to a changing bioavailability. If the half-life is small, then there wouldn't be that much chance for effing things up, if the half-life is large, then it's a bit different.
> 
> When I asked a pharmacist, he said he had never heard anyone have a problem with generic Paxil (short half-life), but a lot more complained about generic Prozac (large half-life). So, I don't know...just my two cents.


Both generic pills and capsules are completely dissolved after ingestion, so the active chemical compound should be equally available for absorption.



> *Q: Are generic drugs as strong as brand-name drugs?*
> *A: *Yes. The FDA requires generic drugs to have the same quality, strength, purity and stability as brand-name drugs.


* http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/EmergencyPreparedness/BioterrorismandDrugPreparedness/ucm134451.htm


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> Both generic pills and capsules are completely dissolved after ingestion, so the active chemical compound should be equally available for absorption.
> 
> * http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/EmergencyPreparedness/BioterrorismandDrugPreparedness/ucm134451.htm


Yeah, yeah. I've read that too. But there's also equally convincing anecdotal evidence that some generics ARE NOT the same. I'm not saying they're a different compound, I'm just saying that perhaps the efficacy is determined by something other than what the FDA mandates.

They're completely dissolved upon ingestion, but certain chemicals, like inert ingredients do change absorption rates.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

*Side effects:* None so far, and the initial anxiety has gone done significantly. No sexual side effects. So far I've gotten a lot less side effects than SSRIs.

*Other effects:* Hynagogic sensory stuff, they're not hallucinations, but definitely something is up. No hypertensive crises. I feel a mild stimulating effect along with a kind of calming effect if that makes any sense at all; i.e. my mind is sharper, but I'm not jittery, I'm more relaxed.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Too lazy to look them up, but I know with certain heart drugs in particular, there are studies confirming a difference between name brand and generics that doctors and pharmacists SHOULD be aware of.

The "inert" binders and fillers can have different effects too, and pharmacists are somewhat educated on the subject. Yeah, the FDA requires the company to show that generics are identical to name brand before being allowed on the market, but these studies are generally small, short-term, and it's not unheard of for multiple studies to be conducted after the fact showing a difference.

That being said, I always buy generics, when available, so that should give you an idea of to what degree I honestly believe these differences occur. There's little doubt in my mind that the majority of the time, this "anecdotal evidence" (kind of an oxymoron in pharmacology when you consider how powerful the placebo effect had been demonstrated to be) is due more to this placebo effect than anything else. People realize their pills have changed, are no longer "name brand", and become convinced that the quality must be inferior.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Meyaj, yeah I agree, but I also think that a significant amount of the time it's not placebo effect. Many people have their medication unknowingly changed to generic, then once they feel something is different, they're like "oh ****, generic". Usually, I hear that AFTER the drug stops working they find out they have generic and then they get pissed. Also for anecdotal evidence to be all placebo effect, would be quite the accomplishment.

Also, *Parnate* update time:

I can suddenly sleep the whole night, get to bed at a good time, wake up at a good time. When I wake up, I don't feel like going back to sleep. This is a major win in my opinion, and I can tell that it really hasn't worked fully or much at all yet. Probably has to do more with the stimulant/placebo effect than anything though.

More to come. No side effects AT ALL yet.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

db0255 said:


> I can suddenly sleep the whole night, get to bed at a good time, wake up at a good time. When I wake up, I don't feel like going back to sleep. This is a major win in my opinion, and I can tell that it really hasn't worked fully or much at all yet. Probably has to do more with the stimulant/placebo effect than anything though.
> 
> More to come. No side effects AT ALL yet.


This is very good. One of my chronic problems over the years has been this inability to go to sleep and get up at a decent time and not want to stay in bed/go back to sleep.

In high school (no meds), my mom would have to wrestle me out of bed to get up and ready for school, even when I drove a carpool of younger kids. In college (paxil, but mostly 300 mg effexor), I would be one of the last people on the hall to go to sleep and would sleep in til whenever I wanted to get up-- missing LOTS of class. Adding straterra to mirtazapine seemed to help a lot with this in the beginning, now still some, but not as much.

I also had enough apathy/lack of concentration/whatever (no parents in the next room) to not really care about deadlines and classes at large-- my grades were significantly worse in college (HS 4.0; college just below a 3.0). Pretty sure I'm getting adderall xr or whatever other stim (vyvanse, concerta, etc) I want this week.

Sorry, I digress. This thread is about you and parnate not about me and a life without direction. I am starting to come around on the possibility of trying an MAOI (probably parnate). So thank you and keep us posted, especially in that 1-month out period when the halo effect of a new medication often seems to dissipate. :boogie, no ****.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

*This is very good. One of my chronic problems over the years has been this inability to go to sleep and get up at a decent time and not want to stay in bed/go back to sleep.*

Yes, this is exactly my problem.

*In high school (no meds), my mom would have to wrestle me out of bed to get up and ready for school, even when I drove a carpool of younger kids. In college (paxil, but mostly 300 mg effexor), I would be one of the last people on the hall to go to sleep and would sleep in til whenever I wanted to get up-- missing LOTS of class. Adding straterra to mirtazapine seemed to help a lot with this in the beginning, now still some, but not as much.*

This is also my problem, although it wasn't so much getting up in the morning as getting me to talk in the morning.

*I also had enough apathy/lack of concentration/whatever (no parents in the next room) to not really care about deadlines and classes at large-- my grades were significantly worse in college (HS 4.0; college just below a 3.0). Pretty sure I'm getting adderall xr or whatever other stim (vyvanse, concerta, etc) I want this week. *

I also had a 4.0 in high school. Went to Duke. Now I have a 2.7. I have to say that I feel better on stimulants, like caffeine and this parnate, but it does nothing for anxiety.

*Sorry, I digress. This thread is about you and parnate not about me and a life without direction. I am starting to come around on the possibility of trying an MAOI (probably parnate). So thank you and keep us posted, especially in that 1-month out period when the halo effect of a new medication often seems to dissipate. :boogie, no ****.*

Willllll do...I'll post when something actually happens...but mostly wanted to say that the side effects issue with MAOIs are overhyped.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Willllll do...I'll post when something actually happens...but mostly wanted to say that the side effects issue with MAOIs are overhyped.


Haven't tried an MAOI yet but, to be fair, Parnate is generally agreed upon to be the mildest in terms of side effects.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

db0255 said:


> I also had a 4.0 in high school. Went to Duke. Now I have a 2.7. I have to say that I feel better on stimulants, like caffeine and this parnate, but it does nothing for anxiety.


And you can't blame the grades on being in a fraternity at Duke, they don't really count there.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

ahha sure...BB i forgot to ask, how is Prozac working for you, or did you not take it?


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

I felt super zombified (on the 3rd/4th days) when I added 20mg prozac to the mirtazapine (30mg) and straterra. Further, the complete lack of sexual drive was also very inopportune, so I discontinued prozac for the time being. I am tapering the mirtazapine down with the intent of switching over to prozac, just to see if that does any better.

This time of year (September/October) seems to be high-season for my depression. As if the turning of the seasons/incoming allergies(I'm in the south)/orientation of the stars/something else flips a switch and I feel like a dump truck ran over me. And my mood seems to go up and down with the weather, could be a coincidence or just in my head, but the weather was bad this week-- I felt bad bad-- and now that it's blown through, I felt 10x better. Maybe those astrologists are on to something...


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

db0255 said:


> ahha sure...BB i forgot to ask, how is Prozac working for you, or did you not take it?


Just giving you a hard time because I have a few friends that went there. Congrats on the win today-- Thaddeus Lewis has been amazing.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

BusterBluth said:


> Just giving you a hard time because I have a few friends that went there. Congrats on the win today-- Thaddeus Lewis has been amazing.


Yeah wtf! Our football team is going crazy...we're out of the Bottom 10 for god knows how long. And we have a chance to win our division and go to a bowl game. IDK. Coach cut is good

And yeah, adding Prozac to Remeron wasn't the best. Although the Remeron helped alleviate the daytime sleepiness. I feel like you have exactly what I have, and yes weather affects me also. Anything good will make me feel good, but then generally when I get time to myself, I'm down in the gutter. Try the Prozac for a month, and if that doesn't work, you might consider the MAOIs.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

BusterBluth said:


> This is very good. One of my chronic problems over the years has been this inability to go to sleep and get up at a decent time and not want to stay in bed/go back to sleep.
> 
> In high school (no meds), my mom would have to wrestle me out of bed to get up and ready for school, even when I drove a carpool of younger kids. In college (paxil, but mostly 300 mg effexor), I would be one of the last people on the hall to go to sleep and would sleep in til whenever I wanted


That sounds alot like me, ever since highschool I've always had incredible trouble falling asleep, and then I'd always be exhausted unless I had 10 or so hours sleep, and getting up early would be a nightmare. Mom usually had to drag me out of bed for school also.
At the time doctors thought it was chronic fatigue *shrugs*.

Then last year it got to the point where I had college every day, so I'd get about 3-4 hours sleep a night.

Certain stimulating antidepressants made my sleep quality worse ie paxil, lexapro and especially moclobemide. On the other hand mirtazapine made falling asleep very easy, but I still need about 10 hours sleep a night on it.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Just got back from a Halloween party. I wasn't too nervous, but then again I never really am that nervous at parties anyway. Seemed like Parnate made me chill out a lot more.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Just got back from a Halloween party. I wasn't too nervous, but then again I never really am that nervous at parties anyway. Seemed like Parnate made me chill out a lot more.


Awesome.

So are you usually able to go to parties? The anticipatory anxiety is way too much for me, I end up avoiding them and always have an excuse


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Just got back from a Halloween party. I wasn't too nervous, but then again I never really am that nervous at parties anyway. Seemed like Parnate made me chill out a lot more.


Yeah, me too. For the most part I can do OK at parties if there is structure and I know people, especially if there is something to keep me occupied (beirut/drinking game/game on tv) or I just bounce around have micro-conversations with the 30 people I know, moving on to the next person/group after a brief exchange. The concept of a 'conversation', sometimes seems very distant to me. I only have so many 'Did you see X article/game/youtube video? Wasn't it interesting/awesome/hilarious.' pieces before I feel compelled to get moving again for fear of straining or thinking the other people is noticing how forced and unnatural things are becoming.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

BusterBluth said:


> Yeah, me too. For the most part I can do OK at parties if there is structure and I know people, especially if there is something to keep me occupied (beirut/drinking game/game on tv) or I just bounce around have micro-conversations with the 30 people I know, moving on to the next person/group after a brief exchange. The concept of a 'conversation', sometimes seems very distant to me. I only have so many 'Did you see X article/game/youtube video? Wasn't it interesting/awesome/hilarious.' pieces before I feel compelled to get moving again for fear of straining or thinking the other people is noticing how forced and unnatural things are becoming.


uhhhhh, YUP. Hahaha. It's pretty much exactly like that. If I have to express an opinion, talk about some pre-thought thing or something like that, I'm fine, but if it's off the cuff or face to face; it blows. If I'm at a party where I don't know anybody, I feel more awkward, but I'm not that much more anxious if that makes sense. It's just this constant feeling of...yup, have nothing to say. haha. Although, when I was on Prozac before it pooped out, it was exactly the opposite; I always had a conversation ready, which was great, and ever since, even if I don't have anything to say, I never really feel pressured at parties.

The only thing that keeps me going at parties is the fact that at any one moment I do not look 1/1,000,000 bad or weird as I think I do.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

meyaj said:


> Awesome.
> 
> So are you usually able to go to parties? The anticipatory anxiety is way too much for me, I end up avoiding them and always have an excuse


If there are people I know, I have no problem, and usually am able to have a good time. Otherwise it's boring and uninteresting to me.

I always had pretty bad anticipatory anxiety, which is something that doesn't really go away and you're always fighting, but the best way to fight it is to just do it.

I remember my first party freshman year, can you spell awkward? Haha, although, nobody is thinking about you or is as harsh as you think they are...so i just kept going at it, no matter how awkward I felt. It wasn't easy for me....


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Parnate Update

Great for depression, and I can tell it hasn't kicked in fully. I feel like this is actually doing something, versus SSRIs which did jack ****. I am still self-conscious though.

*Effects*: Antidepressant, duh. But it feels more like I can tolerate people, and don't wanna bash their brains in.

*Side Effects*: Dry mouth; and this is a weird one but anorgasmia, which is weird because it doesn't affect my libido one bit...so I'm not really bothered by this....

Overall I feel more centered and normal, like all of sudden my life isn't out of control with regards to sleeping and day to day things. I go to sleep sometime between 10 and 12, and wake up at 9. I don't feel anxious anymore.

We'll see where this goes. More updates to come. Love to take some questions if you have any.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

Hopefully the anorgasm will pass. I had some weird (painful and/or borderline retrograde orgasm) upon starting strattera, but that went away after the first month.



db0255 said:


> It's just this constant feeling of...yup, have nothing to say. haha.


Flight of the Conchords 'so what do you think they're talking about, hmm?' Jemaine refering to Bret making out with one of the girls... haha

But sometimes my train of thought is like-- OK, I don't want to say something obvious; I don't want to say something that I can't continue talking about/backup with more conversation (and I don't think I'm a qualified expert in many areas or think I don't know as much as others in those areas so that shuts down such subjects); I don't want to bring up a subject that someone else might not know much about/be interested in/etc... self-limiting much?


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Yeah, the anorgasmia is not a problem, it's more like...you can't do it more than once a day. Which is totally fine by me, but I feel for those porn-addicted people. 

Also, I'm not sure what to say anymore, because uh...I'm not depressed. And the anxiety is slowly being whittled away.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Glad to hear you've only had positive results thus far. 

The anorgasmia with Nardil was insane - complete inability to "finish" most of the time. And this didn't even show up until 2-3 weeks of being on it (along with the postural hypotension.)

I'd love to try Parnate, but I'm so sensitive to the tyramine interactions.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

IllusionalFate said:


> Glad to hear you've only had positive results thus far.
> 
> The anorgasmia with Nardil was insane - complete inability to "finish" most of the time. And this didn't even show up until 2-3 weeks of being on it (along with the postural hypotension.)
> 
> I'd love to try Parnate, but I'm so sensitive to the tyramine interactions.


It's weird how nardil causes such bad anorgasmia, when it increases dopamine to such an extent, which theoretically would reverse that. 
Any idea why it still happens?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

That is odd when you think about it... usually dopaminergics offset the sexual dysfunction from heightened serotonin. I've never found dopaminergics pro-sexual at all (I've tried selegiline, bupropion, methylphenidate, and Adderall), but still it seems like anorgasmia is a major side effect of phenelzine for most users anyway. :stu


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks IllusionalFate,
Positive results so far, although I feel like it's a very gradual work upward. Prozac, from my experience, was instantaneous and transformative, and unfortunately is what I compare all these drugs to now. Oh well.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

A week in, and this thing is a great AD. I can't believe I didn't start on it before; basically whenever I start to have a train of thought that is negative, I just throw it out, and it stays out. A good analogy: my depression is like mud, and the Parnate just cleaned it all up. Perhaps it's the amphetamine effect, I doubt it, but I feel more focused. 

Side Effects: Dry mouth, dry mouth, dry mouth. I eat less. I sleep better (12-6/8, rather than 3 am to 12)...No adverse reactions at all


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Reading that makes me actually consider trying another nonselective MAOI. If I could experience the benefits of a light amphetamine dose with the mood-lift and prosocial effects of phenelzine, I think I'd be in heaven.

What dose are you on currently, and what time(s) during the day do you take it?


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> Reading that makes me actually consider trying another nonselective MAOI. If I could experience the benefits of a light amphetamine dose with the mood-lift and prosocial effects of phenelzine, I think I'd be in heaven.
> 
> What dose are you on currently, and what time(s) during the day do you take it?


Phenelzine partially metabolizes to PEA, which is pretty similar in effect to amphetamine. However, as I don't have any experience with it yet, I can't say whether or not it's enough to produce noticeable effects.


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## Saqq (Dec 1, 2008)

Parnate has been a miracle drug for me -- I think I'm just about a month in now (20mg morning, 20mg in the afternoon) -- the only problem I have with it, if it sedates the **** out of me.

Just today, I wake up at 1pm, went downstairs to the most uncomfortable couch we have, and laid there/slept until about 5:30 

Although to be fair I am still getting paid for it for 3 more days, so maybe I'm just doing it for spite

I've been to a couple parties, a baseball game, quit my job, have no problem going to the gym/clothing store anymore, don't really have any side effects, and if I do they're short/tolerable. (Although most of of these are mixed with Xanax, so it could be that, but eitherway my life has does a 180 since getting on parnate)... I even have like 5 min conversations with Cashiers


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

My dose is 10 mg, 3 times a day, evenly spaced as much as possible (one when i wake, one at noon, and one during dinner). The dry mouth is really the worst side effect, but all in all it's not that bad. The amphetamine effect is really, really light, and very subtle like piracetam-subtle if you've taken that. It's nothing I couldn't get by drinking a few sodas a day, not very practical but you get my idea.

Every now and then I'll fall back on old habits and think negatively, but it's kind of like I have a stopper and reset. It's like it stops the thoughts, and then resets my mind. Good stuff.

Socially, I can easier look people in the eye; although, I never had too much trouble with that before. It doesn't make me better socially, but it eliminates much of the anxiety. I feel like this will continue to get better.

The sedation aspect is there, like saqq said, but I find my sleeping to be more full and shorter, and a 1 hour nap takes care of the sedation. Honestly, the sedation is more from running around all day. I do stuff, and then I feel tired. Seems like a good deal to me.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

meyaj said:


> Phenelzine partially metabolizes to PEA, which is pretty similar in effect to amphetamine. However, as I don't have any experience with it yet, I can't say whether or not it's enough to produce noticeable effects.


I tried it for a couple months over the summer, most of that time at 75mg. I weigh a mere 116lbs, so I probably only need 60mg for maximum benefit.

I'd guess only a small part of the phenelzine dose metabolizes into PEA. I combined 50mg of it with Nardil once and had a hypertensive crisis, no dopaminergic effects either.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

db0255 said:


> Socially, I can easier look people in the eye; although, I never had too much trouble with that before. It doesn't make me better socially, but it eliminates much of the anxiety. I feel like this will continue to get better.


If it's anything like Nardil, once you start getting into the higher doses the true efficacy sets in. Nardil usually starts becoming effective at 2/3rds the max recommended dose, so that would be 40mg for Parnate.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> If it's anything like Nardil, once you start getting into the higher doses the true efficacy sets in. Nardil usually starts becoming effective at 2/3rds the max recommended dose, so that would be 40mg for Parnate.


So why do MAOIs need to be increased in dose, more so than an SSRI? I feel like from the posts on here about MAOIs that there's some magic that happens after you hit a certain dosage. Is that just because MAO inhibition works differently pharmacologically than serotonin reuptake inhibition?


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

db0255 said:


> So why do MAOIs need to be increased in dose, more so than an SSRI? I feel like from the posts on here about MAOIs that there's some magic that happens after you hit a certain dosage. Is that just because MAO inhibition works differently pharmacologically than serotonin reuptake inhibition?


I was wondering the same thing when I was typing that post, and I can't really say for sure. In fact, the exact way MAOIs indirectly work with neurotransmitters to provide such positive results is a mystery to me, since MAO operates intracellularly. I think once you get to that sweet spot dosage-wise, the increase in neurotransmission gets boosted to a significantly higher degree (for example, 20% greater inhibition = 50% increase in monoamines being packaged into vesicles).

Enzyme inhibition definitely works differently than uptake inhibition.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah I think there's a pretty clear goal with MAOI treatment of blocking about 80-85% of the body's MAO enzymes, so you're probably not too far off.


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## odspot (Sep 1, 2009)

db0255 said:


> My dose is 10 mg, 3 times a day, evenly spaced as much as possible (one when i wake, one at noon, and one during dinner). The dry mouth is really the worst side effect, but all in all it's not that bad. The amphetamine effect is really, really light, and very subtle like piracetam-subtle if you've taken that. It's nothing I couldn't get by drinking a few sodas a day, not very practical but you get my idea.
> 
> Every now and then I'll fall back on old habits and think negatively, but it's kind of like I have a stopper and reset. It's like it stops the thoughts, and then resets my mind. Good stuff.
> 
> ...


i'm amazed you're able to sleep so well, particularly when dosing at night - and also envious (admittedly) of your response. Parnate did nothing expect cause aggression and intractable insomnia in me. i ended up cutting myself (something i've never had the desire to do) because i felt so disconnected from sleep loss.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

odspot said:


> i'm amazed you're able to sleep so well, particularly when dosing at night - and also envious (admittedly) of your response. Parnate did nothing expect cause aggression and intractable insomnia in me. i ended up cutting myself (something i've never had the desire to do) because i felt so disconnected from sleep loss.


Sorry to hear that odspot. I've never really had a "bad" reaction to an AD either unless you count weight gain and apathy. Other than that, my withdrawals have always been mild, and never any bad social or psychological effects.

Insomnia? Man, I've always overslept, and before, sleeping was almost fun for me. Now I have no desire other than a regular 8 hours at night and a cat nap cause I'm running around all day, to sleep the day away.

Do any of you following this thread have any stories about the difference in an MAOI from a low dose to a higher dose? Are there exponential benefits, and if I have zero side effects now should I expect zero side effects later?


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## Saqq (Dec 1, 2008)

db0255 said:


> Do any of you following this thread have any stories about the difference in an MAOI from a low dose to a higher dose? Are there exponential benefits, and if I have zero side effects now should I expect zero side effects later?


I started out at 10mg/morning, 10mg/afternoon and had no side effects at all -- just a little more sedative. Didn't start getting the good/bad feelings until 20g/10g, now I'm maxed out pretty much at 40mg/day and almost a whole new person.

note: this is mixing it with all the different benzo's I'm trying (these don't seem to have any effect on me, it's annoying)


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

So does anyone else taking parnate get the feeling that nothing has changed, but everything has changed? I'm not really sure how to put it other than that, but I've seen this said about it before, and figured somebody would have some insight....


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

db0255 said:


> Do any of you following this thread have any stories about the difference in an MAOI from a low dose to a higher dose? Are there exponential benefits, and if I have zero side effects now should I expect zero side effects later?


I'm not sure how phenelzine compares, but it took about 4 weeks until the orthostatic hypotension started becoming really severe. That could have been dose-related though, since at that time I had went up to 75mg (probably a good deal higher MAO inhibition than what you are at right now).


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

ive been taking Parnate for about 3 weeks now i think. it havnt noticed any real benefits. maybe slight antidepressant effects... i was also wondering if i should increase my dose. I only have terrible insomnia, and postural hypotension. but compared to other meds Parnate barely has any bad side effects.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> ive been taking Parnate for about 3 weeks now i think. it havnt noticed any real benefits. maybe slight antidepressant effects... i was also wondering if i should increase my dose. I only have terrible insomnia, and postural hypotension. but compared to other meds Parnate barely has any bad side effects.


Yeah, if you aren't noticing much (if any) benefit, then raising the dose would be a good idea. I'd recommend going up 10mg every 2 weeks until you find a dose where significant effects are noticed.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

db0255 said:


> So does anyone else taking parnate get the feeling that nothing has changed, but everything has changed? I'm not really sure how to put it other than that, but I've seen this said about it before, and figured somebody would have some insight....


Is this a positive, negative or neutral observation?


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

BusterBluth said:


> Is this a positive, negative or neutral observation?


Well mostly positive. I feel much better mood wise, and sleep wise, holy ****. I sleep from 12-9. This thing is great. I have energy during the day, and less anxiety; depression is gone. And yet there's this feeling that really nothing has changed. Feel like me yet just out of the mud. IDK, I've heard this before from people on MAOIs, like there's no drugged up feeling, just improvement. Buster, if you've said your depression is like mine, I would definitely try this; stimulants will definitely help, but I'm not sure if you could take them with MAOIs.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

OK, where's the update?


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Sup bros. Been summoned back by Mr. BB.

So total Parnate experience so far:

1. The side effects have gotten a little worse. I'm not sure if it's related to Parnate at all, but I feel like I have a mild flu (aches, congestion, GI probs). *Parnate side effects* for sure though: dry mouth, dry eyes (not bad, but annoying), *no sexual side effects*

2. The amphetamine buzz wears off after a week. Right now I don't feel it at all. It wasn't that prominent , and probably is not why you're gonna take it Parnate anyway, so if you're leaning Parnate because that entices you, you will be disappointed.

3. It works exactly like it says. My atypical depression is really gone. I sleep good hours, and don't have any inclination to oversleep. Insomnia is also not a problem, perhaps a little harder to get to bed, but I'd take that any day over doing jack****, moping around, then lying in bed.

4. Anxiety is like 70% gone. I don't know how to describe it, but I feel a little more at ease around people, but it's not a cognitive at ease, it's more of a total body at ease. SSRIs, except for Prozac, really did nothing, so this is a welcome change.

5. This drug will probably do nothing for self-consciousness. Prozac, was a wonder for this, and not only did I feel good, but I felt good about myself, and more like myself. Parnate does not do that at all. I still feel like I'm reaching for what I have to say in conversation. Eh...but still better than SSRIs in general.

6. This is a great aspect of Parnate that I don't think I've mentioned, but my compulsions have lessened significantly. If you're a compulsive person, this definitely works.

7. Social life? I've never had a HUGE problem with my social life, wouldn't call my self a people person all the time though, and I really see little difference on Parnate. Other than that, my irritability has decreased, I have a higher tolerance for people, and I want to be around them. I don't complain before going to a social event, and although I've always been of the just do it attitude, this seems a little bit easier while on Parnate.

I'll be upping my dose soon, hopefully and write in here about it. BB, you should definitely try Parnate. I've said this before, but you seem like you have the same symptoms I have and at least mood, sleep, and appetite wise, this drug has been great!


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Sounds good, I can only imagine how effective it might be if you combined it with klonopin.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> Sounds good, I can only imagine how effective it might be if you combined it with klonopin.


I've combined it with 1mg Ativan! Nothing really that amazing cause the MAOI relaxes me already.

I can only imagine how effective it might be if I combined it with a stimulant.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

im combining it with Klonopin, just got Klonopin today......

about approximately 30 minutes ago, i was feeling really bad and depressed, because the Parnate didn't seem to be helping with my anxiety, OCD, or depression....and ive been on 30mg for a month........but then all of a sudden, i looked at the cover of this old book, and BAM i have a terrible OCD attack which has still not gone away. and now i realize......the parnate HAS been helping...alot. i just didn't notice it... im talking more to people, im excercising every day, and i havnt had any mental breakdowns from OCD. Parnate has not made me euphoric, not in the least, but it surely is doing something....i actually enjoy doing stuff a little bit, and i like talking to people. whereas previously, i probably would not have posted this post, for fear that someone would think i was an idiot for posting something...


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> im combining it with Klonopin, just got Klonopin today......
> 
> about approximately 30 minutes ago, i was feeling really bad and depressed, because the Parnate didn't seem to be helping with my anxiety, OCD, or depression....and ive been on 30mg for a month........but then all of a sudden, i looked at the cover of this old book, and BAM i have a terrible OCD attack which has still not gone away. and now i realize......the parnate HAS been helping...alot. i just didn't notice it... im talking more to people, im excercising every day, and i havnt had any mental breakdowns from OCD. Parnate has not made me euphoric, not in the least, but it surely is doing something....i actually enjoy doing stuff a little bit, and i like talking to people. whereas previously, i probably would not have posted this post, for fear that someone would think i was an idiot for posting something...


Agree totally VVV, the effects are subtle sometimes so you don't think it's working, but at the same time there are huge differences between me now and a month ago. I'd have to see how this works out over the long term, but I feel it's a pretty good med especially for OCD.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Agree totally VVV, the effects are subtle sometimes so you don't think it's working, but at the same time there are huge differences between me now and a month ago. I'd have to see how this works out over the long term, but I feel it's a pretty good med especially for OCD.


yeah youre right on...the actuall effects are hard to determine...but when i look at me a month ago, i mean gosh the defference is huge. its really all subtle. yeah its making my OCD worse a little bit...but adding in K pin should help with that. and if i do some reverse sensitization i should be good.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> yeah youre right on...the actuall effects are hard to determine...but when i look at me a month ago, i mean gosh the defference is huge. its really all subtle. yeah its making my OCD worse a little bit...but adding in K pin should help with that. and if i do some reverse sensitization i should be good.


Do you find that Klonopin helps with your OCD? I find that it sometimes helps mine and sometimes it doesn't.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

Do any one of you experience not just alleviation of depression, but an actual mood-lift/happiness/increased appreciation of the little things in life on Parnate? I felt that way on Nardil, and now that I typed this post phenelzine sounds so good I want to go back on it again...

I never felt the euphoria though, just a pretty consistent feeling of well-being.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> Do any one of you experience not just alleviation of depression, but an actual mood-lift/happiness/increased appreciation of the little things in life on Parnate? I felt that way on Nardil, and now that I typed this post phenelzine sounds so good I want to go back on it again...
> 
> I never felt the euphoria though, just a pretty consistent feeling of well-being.


Not really. Although, I do notice the little things. I pop right out of bed now, no more thinking of going to sleep. I still feel shy around people, but I feel more relaxed and less irritable around them now. I feel less like I have to be compulsive. I eat less, binge less. A weird feeling I've noticed is that although I'm still self-conscious, and Parnate is not Prozac for me; I feel like I've laughed deeply way more easily on this drug around people. I remember studying abroad in Australia when my depression was really at its deepest, and I went with a family for a week, and the wife was like, "You don't really have a hearty laugh, you don't seem to let yourself go and laugh fully."

But why should I be surprised, it's what Parnate is supposed to do, and it does it. I'll be asking for a upping in dosage soon because the side effects are really tolerable.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> Do you find that Klonopin helps with your OCD? I find that it sometimes helps mine and sometimes it doesn't.


i haven't tried it yet...im scared of developing tolerance even if i take it once...like i don't want to lose any ground by becoming more anxious when it wears off. but in the past, Klonopin helped my OCD, until i took it for too long. same with xanax....so if i take 3-4 days off, it helps agian. but about helping OCD, i think i know what you mean.. sometimes benzos will completely destroy the OCD, or at least smash it into a smaller problem. but other times, nothing happens at all, and i end up having worse OCD because i cannot make the necessary mental connections to override the OCD, due to the cognitive impairment caused by Benzos. its like i can't get out of the rut when im on benzos, but when im free of them, and more anxiety prone, i can override OCD some times. same thing happens with Zolpidem and Zopiclone....some nights when i take it i will get semi-euphoric, and start acting all drunk and stuff, and my OCD will be gone, but other times it make the OCD alot worse.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Why dont you take DXM with the klonopin?


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> Do any one of you experience not just alleviation of depression, but an actual mood-lift/happiness/increased appreciation of the little things in life on Parnate? I felt that way on Nardil, and now that I typed this post phenelzine sounds so good I want to go back on it again...
> 
> I never felt the euphoria though, just a pretty consistent feeling of well-being.


this might sound funny, but when i eat a whole bunch of chocolate, i get semi-euphoric for about 30minutes, maybe due to the Phenylethylamine, but then 30 minutes after that my OCD will get really bad. but other than that i don't notice any strong antidepressant effects...just quite subtle ones mostly...

would Nardil be a stronger antidepressant? GABA-A activation is good, as far as a know, for depression. But doesn't GABA-B activation inhibit dopamine release? i was thinking, maybe Nardil's GABAergic activity and stronger MAO-A inhibition is responsible for its potent ability to cause Sexual dysfunction...while Parnate doesn't seem to cause any S.D.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Why dont you take DXM with the klonopin?


dude, i would LOVE to. I love DXM, and if i could take it, i would. But i don't think i should take DXM with Parnate....i might die, probably would end up in the hospital from Serotonin Syndrome, maybe... how strong exaclty of a Serotonin releaser is DXM?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> dude, i would LOVE to. I love DXM, and if i could take it, i would. But i don't think i should take DXM with Parnate....i might die, probably would end up in the hospital from Serotonin Syndrome, maybe... how strong exaclty of a Serotonin releaser is DXM?


Oh nvm then, i tought you stopped taking the paranate for the klonopin, didnt read the whole thread. I agree its a bad thing to take DXM with parnate.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> i haven't tried it yet...im scared of developing tolerance even if i take it once....


Don't worry too much, in the past I took a low dose .5 mg daily for a few months and stopped cold tureky with no withdrawls, then recently I took 1mg per day for a month and stopped after an 8 day taper with no discomfort whatsoever.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> would Nardil be a stronger antidepressant? GABA-A activation is good, as far as a know, for depression. But doesn't GABA-B activation inhibit dopamine release? i was thinking, maybe Nardil's GABAergic activity and stronger MAO-A inhibition is responsible for its potent ability to cause Sexual dysfunction...while Parnate doesn't seem to cause any S.D.


Regarding GABA-A, one thing I have noticed with daily benzo use is that it lowers my sex drive, it's not the same or as severe as SSRI sexual dysfunction though, because theres no delayed orgasm, it's just like, as if your less motivated to care about sex, if you know what I mean.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Btw, one thing I don't get about nonselective MAOIs like parnate and nardil, is how do they manage to have such an effect on dopamine and yet not cause psychosis or addiction?


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> Don't worry too much, in the past I took a low dose .5 mg daily for a few months and stopped cold tureky with no withdrawls, then recently I took 1mg per day for a month and stopped after an 8 day taper with no discomfort whatsoever.


ok sweet. i was just worried, cuz the last time i took klonopin it was really hard to get off of and i got tolerant after 4 months of use, but i was taking more than 3 mg per day..


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> Btw, one thing I don't get about nonselective MAOIs like parnate and nardil, is how do they manage to have such an effect on dopamine and yet not cause psychosis or addiction?


i thought it might be due to MAOI's super strong action on serotonin, so even if it raises dopamine a whole lot, serotonin is gonna inhibit almost just as strongly. and SSRIs seem to be antipsychotic and strongly antidopaminergic, inhibiting fear and psychotic symptoms... but i still wonder alot about it. I don't understand why MAOIs don't cause more euphoria...SSRIs + stimulants (ritalin/adderall) caused euphoria for me. but MAOIs haven't.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> ok sweet. i was just worried, cuz the last time i took klonopin it was really hard to get off of and i got tolerant after 4 months of use, but i was taking more than 3 mg per day..


Did you decide to stop taking it because you had become tolerant to its positive effects?


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> Something I've seen in this thread a few times.. suggestions/mentions of combing drugs like stimulants and DXM (which is a potent serotonin reuptake inhibitor) with Parnate..
> 
> DO NOT DO IT.
> 
> ...


dude...i totally love all your posts. i mean i know they are supposed to be serious, which they are, very much so. but along with being very informative, its just your distinct use of language, prose, and vocabulary, combined together that cracks me up (i don't mean this in any derogatory way at all) . its like its serious, informative, funny, and also very interesting due to the extent of your life-threatening/amazing experiences/drug interactions. Sorry if any of this is offfensive or awkward....blame it on the klonopin, i just started taking Klonopin today. so i have a disclaimer lol..


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

now a whole new subject: COMT inhibitors!! this would be another good addition to my final regimen once i can afford it... maybe. i read this one study that said decreased COMT can cause OCD in some male subjects... but i guess it could also cause euphoria and insomnia and anorexia. 

What would Tianeptine do in Combination with an SSRI or MAOI? not that im going to try it, i dont like tianeptine much cuz it makes my OCD worse.... but would it decrease Serotonergic Side effects, or would it cause Serotonin syndrome through some weird mechanism?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Adding tianeptine with a SSRI wouldnt work as it would interfere with SSRI's main mechanism of action, on MAOI's however it could be interesting. I dont know about serotonin syndrome tough.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> now a whole new subject: COMT inhibitors!! this would be another good addition to my final regimen once i can afford it... maybe. i read this one study that said decreased COMT can cause OCD in some male subjects... but i guess it could also cause euphoria and insomnia and anorexia.


COMT inhibitors increase both dopamine and noradrenaline, but since dopamine is metabolised to noradrenaline by dopamine beta-hydroxylase, I think COMT inhibitors are gonna be way more adrenergic than dopaminergic.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> Something I've seen in this thread a few times.. suggestions/mentions of combing drugs like stimulants and DXM (which is a potent serotonin reuptake inhibitor) with Parnate..
> 
> DO NOT DO IT.
> 
> ...


You are massively stupid. Good job! haha I'm glad you're OK, but seriously, do you do these drug combos on purpose just for the **** of it? Obviously I'm not here to lecture you, but how about a new hobby?


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

rocknroll714 said:


> I took 40 mg of Paxil with 90 mg of Nardil which I was taking daily and almost died (don't ask because I don't even really have an answer; but I will say no, I wasn't suicidal, not in the slightest). I asked the doctor at the hospital if I really would have died had I not come in, and he said "Yes, it would've been a slam dunk, no question". They had me on cyproheptadine, propofol, lorazepam, muscle relaxants, and soaking in a tub filled with ice water, and they were still having trouble controlling my temperature. I barely remember any of it.. blacked out completely minutes after getting to the hospital, and my memory before that is extremely fuzzy as well.


Btw, I remember you also tried remeron with nardil at one point, how did that end up going?



rocknroll714 said:


> Serotonin is solely metabolized by MAO, whereas dopamine and norepinephrine are also broken down by an enzyme known as catechol O-methyltransferase (COMT). Hence, MAOIs will always have a far stronger action on serotonin than on dopamine, the latter of which can only be increased so much as COMT will just take over with metabolic duties. In addition to that, serotonin directly antagonizes the rewarding effects of dopamine as well as self-administration of reinforcing drugs like cocaine and methamphetamine in animal studies. Finally, you can't just dose an MAOI and bam you're high, you have to wait for it to kick in properly, severely limiting addictive potential (contrast to nicotine/cigarettes as an example).


So basically non selective MAOIs are essentially just really potent on serotonin, when all of the other effects are taken into account? If thats the case, why not just take an SSRI, and not worry with the whole dietary restrictions, etc?


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> So basically non selective MAOIs are essentially just really potent on serotonin, when all of the other effects are taken into account? If thats the case, why not just take an SSRI, and not worry with the whole dietary restrictions, etc?


I think Prozac is probably the drug that is MOST POTENT on serotonin for certain people. Parnate, or any other drug, is nothing compared to what Prozac did for me.


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## Saqq (Dec 1, 2008)

it's (parnate) definitely doing something to me be (good) after about 8 weeks.

but it does have some bad side effects rarely.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Parnate update:

MAOI + Benzo = good stuff

Parnate continues to give me dry mouth. No HCs. It makes you fatigued, but really not that much; basically the lifting of depression beats the fatigue any day. I don't know, I would definitely recommend it to those who are thinking about trying it. The side effects are really nonexistent compared to other drugs I've tried, and supposedly Nardil from the descriptions of others. I'm definitely more level-headed and it does a great job for tolerating people; i.e. gets rid of irritability, etc.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

MAOI + Benzo doesn't seem to really be doing anything for me.... the Parnate was just making me super apathetic and unable to feel emotion, i stopped taking it 4 or 5 days ago.....ive been feeling pretty weird tho. like ill feel great one hour, then a couple minutes later, start feeling like crap, like suicidally depressed. i think this is common when getting off of serotonergic meds.....but its so weird. when im on Parnate, i want to go off. but now that im off it, i want to take it again, cuz im starting to get Really really anxious, my OCD is getting worse, ....its just, with Parnate + benzos, i could tolerate life, i could just sleep and waste my time waiting for something good to happen. But without the Parnate, im so anxious, and i can't stop thinking. Parnate definetly was making a difference....i just didnt like the effects on my emotions.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> MAOI + Benzo doesn't seem to really be doing anything for me.... the Parnate was just making me super apathetic and unable to feel emotion, i stopped taking it 4 or 5 days ago.....ive been feeling pretty weird tho. like ill feel great one hour, then a couple minutes later, start feeling like crap, like suicidally depressed. i think this is common when getting off of serotonergic meds.....but its so weird. when im on Parnate, i want to go off. but now that im off it, i want to take it again, cuz im starting to get Really really anxious, my OCD is getting worse, ....its just, with Parnate + benzos, i could tolerate life, i could just sleep and waste my time waiting for something good to happen. But without the Parnate, im so anxious, and i can't stop thinking. Parnate definetly was making a difference....i just didnt like the effects on my emotions.


That sucks. Sorry to hear that.

Also, decreased appetite and weight loss are great. Sometimes I just forget to eat, and I rarely overeat.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

db0255 said:


> That sucks. Sorry to hear that.
> 
> Also, decreased appetite and weight loss are great. Sometimes I just forget to eat, and I rarely overeat.


oh yeah i know dude....ive lost between 10-15 pounds, estimating, since i started PArnate, because i just don't feel like eating. I eat lots of candy and stuff, but even if my body feels hungry, and i know i should eat, i just don't feel like chewing and injesting food. i can also run and excercise alot easier since losing the wieght....


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## jakeforpresident (Sep 27, 2009)

Nardil felt like a powerful SSRI with wellbutrin, plus side effects and delayed onset of action.

I was on it for about a month and got headaches all the time, and was def more apathetic, but my depression was lower as well as a slight effect on my SAD.

I reccomend staying away from MAOI's and just trying more recent drugs like tianeptine, remeron, ssri's, wellbutrin, et all.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

jakeforpresident said:


> Nardil felt like a powerful SSRI with wellbutrin, plus side effects and delayed onset of action.
> 
> I was on it for about a month and got headaches all the time, and was def more apathetic, but my depression was lower as well as a slight effect on my SAD.
> 
> I reccomend staying away from MAOI's and just trying more recent drugs like tianeptine, remeron, ssri's, wellbutrin, et all.


LOL....dude, i never thought i would say this, but i agree. Before i tried MAOIs, i thought they were, like, better than gold+diamonds+crack. but, now that ive tried them,,.....i see that they arent really super amazing. They are strong, and definetly better than SSRIs and lotsa other stuff....and i totally think they can help lotsa people. But i think its like alot safer, and alot easier, to just take combinations of newer, safer drugs..... if only there was a Good Dopamine med, besides the Amphetamines and Ritalin. One that doctors would be comfortable prescribing with SSRIs, to that they would actually work...


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## jakeforpresident (Sep 27, 2009)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> LOL....dude, i never thought i would say this, but i agree. Before i tried MAOIs, i thought they were, like, better than gold+diamonds+crack. but, now that ive tried them,,.....i see that they arent really super amazing. They are strong, and definetly better than SSRIs and lotsa other stuff....and i totally think they can help lotsa people. But i think its like alot safer, and alot easier, to just take combinations of newer, safer drugs..... if only there was a Good Dopamine med, besides the Amphetamines and Ritalin. One that doctors would be comfortable prescribing with SSRIs, to that they would actually work...


LOL thanks. I agree that a dopaminergics are way behind on development, and improvements on them would be perfect for ADHD and many other disorders where psychosis is not a risk. I think they work sooo well that people latch on to the cure and docs call it addiction, which is bull.

Are there any pure DRI's? Norepinephrine is nasty stuff in a lot of ways.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

jakeforpresident said:


> LOL thanks. I agree that a dopaminergics are way behind on development, and improvements on them would be perfect for ADHD and many other disorders where psychosis is not a risk. I think they work sooo well that people latch on to the cure and docs call it addiction, which is bull.
> 
> Are there any pure DRI's? Norepinephrine is nasty stuff in a lot of ways.


i dunno,.....wikipedia lists a few, but then it goes on to say that it is hard to distinguish between the two, because NRIs inhibit the reuptake of dopamine, ... i guess maybe the structure of NA and DA are really similiar.

lol ----video games, sex, food, and happiness in general should all be banned, because they are all addictive and they take over peoples lives, and they keep on searching for more and more and more,.....


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## Saqq (Dec 1, 2008)

Since you guys are all so smart/amazing (not sarcasm)
(rocknroll714 is like our young Doogie Howser -- you're awesome, seriously)

What would the effects of combining Parnate (30mg/day, 30mg/night) + Welbutrin (have hundreds of these sitting around
0 Currently I'm sleeping like 12-16 hours a day (quit my job a few weeks back). And out of all the drugs I've taken. (legally), Welbutrin worked the best, but nowhere near as good as parnate does/did.

Also whats the recommended highest single and/or daily dose of parnate I should be taking.

I'd ask my psych. but appointments are always weeks ago, and well I've just been giving him you're advice for medications because during our first session he told me the cure for SA was to join an acting class... umm... 

Thanks man, love reading your posts, even if I can't understand 90% of it


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

Saqq said:


> Since you guys are all so smart/amazing (not sarcasm)
> (rocknroll714 is like our young Doogie Howser -- you're awesome, seriously)
> 
> What would the effects of combining Parnate (30mg/day, 30mg/night) + Welbutrin (have hundreds of these sitting around
> ...


thanks for the props man. i agree-rocknroll is awesome :clap 
Parnate also made me sleep countless hours during the day...however, i got insomnia at night. I guess it all depends on how much Parnate you are currently taking now.... i actually dont really know an answer to your question, cuz Parnate is one of the most unpredictable meds ive ever tried. Sometimes, i get a little bit of an amphetamine rush for 2-3 hours after taking it, and i have lots of energy. Sometimes, i go to sleep after i take it. And, i strongly expected to have Sexual Dysfunction on Parnate, which i ended up not having at all.....everyone i talk to has completely different side effects, and a completely different experience with Parnate.

From reading random stuff online, ive seen people say that they take more than 100mg Parnate a day, for Treatment resistant depression. sometimes they go above 100mg,.....i dunno how much of an effect this would have, because once all MAO is inhibited, taking more Parnate won't do much, except cause more stimulation via Dopamine release...so you *might have more energy taking a higher dose, but you might get high blood pressure and all that stuff....cuz Parnate functions weakly as a Dopamine and Noradrenaline releaser, similar to Adderrall.

sorry for my completely unhelpful post...i just dunno about Parnate. its confusing.


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## Saqq (Dec 1, 2008)

Ya, i've been taken 20mg/day 10mg/night for a while, then moved to 20mg day/20afternoon

since it takes a while to kick in/get tolerent its hard to tell wtf is going on in my head sometimes, but if I could safe test something like 50mg/morning 50/day - I'd go for it


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

jakeforpresident said:


> I reccomend staying away from MAOI's and just trying more recent drugs like tianeptine, remeron, ssri's, wellbutrin, et all.


Agreed, I think the older drugs like cocaine, heroin, opium, etc. are worth staying away from.


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

db0255 said:


> Agreed, I think the older drugs like cocaine, heroin, opium, etc. are worth staying away from.


if i could prevent the tolerance to cocaine, and if i could do it without going to jail, i would put it into a water bottle and drink it all day. It would be nice, cocaine + heroin + alcohol+energy drink...actually id rather have meth+heroin+alcohol+energy drink .....if it wasnt all addictive and tolerance-causing and illegal and neurotoxic and all that lame stuff.


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## BusterBluth (Sep 21, 2009)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> if i could prevent the tolerance to cocaine, and if i could do it without going to jail, i would put it into a water bottle and drink it all day. It would be nice, cocaine + heroin + alcohol+energy drink...actually id rather have meth+heroin+alcohol+energy drink .....if it wasnt all addictive and tolerance-causing and illegal and neurotoxic and all that lame stuff.


I know someone who used to fill up an empty nasal spray bottle with a solution of cocaine and a liquid and use it throughout the day.


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## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

jakeforpresident said:


> LOL thanks. I agree that a dopaminergics are way behind on development, and improvements on them would be perfect for ADHD and many other disorders where psychosis is not a risk. I think they work sooo well that people latch on to the cure and docs call it addiction, which is bull.


QFT. Why can those with chronic pain take opioids every day, and people who find concentrating difficult take amphetamines on the same basis, yet those who are suffering even more are labeled addicts if they use the same medications as treatment? :no



> Are there any pure DRI's? Norepinephrine is nasty stuff in a lot of ways.


Amfonelic acid, a research chemical, is the only one I know of. NE and DA synergize nicely together though (both are catecholamines), as the right amount of NE enhances alertness, decreases fatigue, provides energy, enhances dopaminergic neurotransmission, and is antidepressant. The ratio I think it works best with is 4:1 with preference to NE (dextroamphetamine) but if this is too much then there are NDRIs such as desoxypipradrol and amineptine that are more selective to dopamine.



Saqq said:


> What would the effects of combining Parnate (30mg/day, 30mg/night) + Welbutrin (have hundreds of these sitting around
> 0 Currently I'm sleeping like 12-16 hours a day (quit my job a few weeks back). And out of all the drugs I've taken. (legally), Welbutrin worked the best, but nowhere near as good as parnate does/did.


The effects would be severe hypertension due to NE overload. I think the best way to counter the MAOI fatigue is by taking caffeine or Provigil.



> Also whats the recommended highest single and/or daily dose of parnate I should be taking.


The limit is 60mg, but I read that decades ago psychiatrists sometimes went up as high as the 100-200mg range in treatment-resistant patients, so it's safe in high doses. Honestly, I think anything over 80mg would be useless because at that dose MAO should be completely knocked out, as Vini Vidi Vici mentioned earlier.


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## db0255 (Jul 20, 2009)

I don't feel like searching for it, and would like a categorical answer:
Which stimulants are OK to take on Parnate?
Also, is Provigil OK to take on Parnate?


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

Saqq said:


> Since you guys are all so smart/amazing (not sarcasm)
> (rocknroll714 is like our young Doogie Howser -- you're awesome, seriously)
> 
> What would the effects of combining Parnate (30mg/day, 30mg/night) + Welbutrin (have hundreds of these sitting around
> ...


Parnate + Wellbutrin = Death due to stroke/hypertensive Crisis. Maybe you could live, but it still wouldn't be a fun experience. High Blood pressure = hypertension....hyper and hypo get mixed up alot. i didnt understand the post the last time i replied but i looked at it agian


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## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> What's OK:
> 
> 
> Xanthines (caffeine, paraxanthine, theobromine, theophylline, etc)
> ...


:clap
that took a long time. no wait, maybe it didn't -- he already had it all memorized in his head. :yes no research necessary


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## fredericmoreau (Dec 1, 2009)

Re. stimulants with Parnate, it depends. Often dextroamphetamine t.i.d. is used as an augmentor for mood and/or postural hypotension, even though it is contraindicated. 10mgs of tranylcypromine (parnate) itself is said to be equivalent in effect to one mg of dextroamphetamine. Psychiatrists these days will rarely prescribe this combo, but it has been found to be efficacious. Dr. Ivan Goldberg wrote on another forum:

"There are recently been a number of warnings posted there that MAOIs should not be prescribed together with psychostimulants. While that is the conventional wisdom, if universally implemented, it would deprive many severely and intractably depressed people from relief. 

In the olden days, the early 1960s, we used to treat some patients with resistant depressions with up to 200 mg/day of tranylcypromine and if that was not effective potentiate it with dextroamphetamine, starting with 2.5 mg once a day and gradually increasing to 15 or 20 mg/day."

The worry is hypertension and possibly 5-ht syndrome, however bp can be monitored and dextroamp is barely if at all serotonergic. I've heard methylphenidate and dextromethamphetamine have been used as augmentors as well, with good results. If you feel that you need a stimulant adjunct it may be worth bringing it up with your pdoc.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> [*]β-Adrenergic Receptor Agonists (salbutamol, levosalbutamol, clenbuterol,


That's... interesting to bring up, can't believe I hadn't even thought of that. I'm going to be starting Nardil in about a week and occasionally use a formoterol inhaler (Symbicort), but so extremely rarely these days that I didn't even think to mention it to the pdoc!


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

rocknroll714 said:


> You would undoubtedly experience a severe hypertensive crisis, and may very well have a heart attack or stroke and die. DON'T DO IT!! Trust me, I was stupid and mixed stuff that you shouldn't mix with MAOIs with Nardil when I was on it, and I paid the consequences. I almost died and I have huge hospital bills that I have to pay off (~$3k+). So please, take me as your example, don't **** around with mixing stuff you're not supposed to with MAOIs. It's one of the stupidest and most consequential things you can do.


I'm glad you saw the error in recklessly experimenting with MAOI's man. Your an extremely intelligent guy who can think outside the box, and I have belief in people like you and David Pearce, that your research could help us all one day, so you need to stick around man!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

jim_morrison said:


> I'm glad you saw the error in recklessly experimenting with MAOI's man. Your an extremely intelligent guy who can think outside the box, and I have belief in people like you and David Pearce, that your research could help us all one day, so you need to stick around man!


+1


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