# Theory: I unconsciously want to have SA and depression cause great benefits



## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

Hi.

My therapist keeps saying that one of the main reasons I have social anxiety and depression may be because the overall situation created by this disorders actually gives me great benefits and I unconsciously want to maintain this lifestyle cause of the benefits. Yeah I know it sounds counter intuitive. So why would anyone want to be in a miserable life like this ?

She tried giving me another example: a woman developed depression and ever since his husband start treating her like crap, began to be more understanding of her and her needs, and so did her work colleagues and her boss. So as a result, she maintained her depression cause of this benefits. She consciously or not actually wants to be depressive cause of this new gains, although depression feels like s*it. She has more to win than to lose by being this way. Logical, right ?

So I still wonder what my unconscious is hiding, what do I have to gain that I didn't figure out yet on a conscious level ? What do I actually win that I want to stay in this situation with sa that sometimes escalates to full blown panic attacks and with daily suicidal depression ?

Ok, so let's make a short list.What do I gain: 
- I got a medical pension of 120 euros, which is a bit more then half of the minimum income here, enough for basic food and some part of the bills
- cause of this, somehow I'm not pressured that much to work, although even if I wanted, I still can't cause of crippling sa, and yeah, I've tried; this pension also allows me to work a maximum of 4h/day, or else I lose it
- still undiscovered gain(s)

What do I have to lose cause of my condition:
- professional life: yeah, can't work with the current level of anxiety, and can't even hold a job where there are no people cause then my depression kicks in, tried jobs with little to no social interaction and they didn't work out
- social life: total isolation, I failed to make friends in the last 13 years (well, had 1 friend in the last 2 years, but in the last month he didn't contact me at all, although I called him, so I can say I have no friends now)
- love life: non existent from 2004 to the present day, tens of rejections but hey, at least I tried (well, I had 2 girls that I was able to go further than the 2nd date, but it didn't work out at all, very bad hygiene for the first and extreme schizophrenia for the second)

So in conclusion what I lose massively overcomes what I gain, unless there is something else I didn't discover yet. So, what can it be ? What is this magical win, so important that I am willing to sacrifice my life on all levels in order to maintain it ?


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

There are benefits to almost anything, and you can get attached to those benefits. But the benefits don't have to be greater than the losses.

Think of it this way: You experience anxiety when talking to another person (could be for almost any number of reasons). One solution is to talk to that person anyway and experience the anxiety. The other is to avoid talking to the person and avoid experiencing the anxiety. If you have no real need to talk to that person, that's generally what you'll choose to do.

If you continually avoid people, what happens is a pattern that we call SA: given the choice, you almost always choose to avoid interacting with people. But the less often you interact with people, the harder it is to integrate in society -- you stop going to school, you avoid getting a job, you avoid making friends, you avoid approaching people for dates, etc. And the further you drift, the worse you feel about yourself, the more 'behind' you get, and the more painful each interaction with other people becomes (because the shame is more intense).

So, your original 'cure' for the problem of experiencing anxiety interacting with other people (avoiding them) turns out to be worse than the disease (anxiety). It's worse, because it makes the anxiety worse over time, not better. But even though it's making your problem worse, you're 'addicted' to it, because it's an immediate, easy way to avoid a small pain now.

Any other benefits you might get from it -- the pension, the pleasure of complaining, the sympathy you get from other people here, the ability to use it as an excuse, etc. -- are secondary to the primary benefit of avoiding anxiety during social interactions. They're not the main reason you can't fix your SA, but they can make it harder for you to turn things around. They're extra complications. You have to fight your inertia to deal with your problem, but all of those secondary benefits sap your will to fight it.

Therapists recommend exposure therapy not only to help you dispel irrational fears (if your fear of rejection turns out to be exaggerated, then it should start to go away), but also to help you reintegrate. The more you do -- make a friend, get a job, get a date -- the less you have to be ashamed about, because the less abnormal you are in the eyes of other people, so your anxiety gradually lessens over time.

As far as your 'unconscious' goes, I think it's often a matter of underestimating just how ashamed you are about certain inadequacies. Or not understanding why you actually feel ashamed about something. I don't necessarily think it has to be unconscious, just a misjudgment on your part. Though it's also possible that you're ashamed of something and haven't realized it yet. It's like being prejudiced but not realizing it. Sometimes we don't discover things about ourselves until other people point them out.


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## sad1231234 (Jul 10, 2016)

You may subconsciously want to have those disorders, because of the benefits you said. Perhaps ask your therapist if there are any specific benefits?


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

truant said:


> But the benefits don't have to be greater than the losses.


But that doesn't make any sense or logic. I expected my unconscious to be smarter than that lol, it seems he is rather dumb if I look at it this way.



sad1231234 said:


> You may subconsciously want to have those disorders, because of the benefits you said. Perhaps ask your therapist if there are any specific benefits?


Did. She doesn't know yet, we are still searching. Or rather waiting for things to surface from the unconscious to the conscious level where we can see them.


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## marsia (Mar 22, 2016)

In the master's degree program for becoming a therapist it is taught that with most disorders, people stay in them because they are getting some payoff for the behavior or they wouldn't do it. It is a generic teaching, and I don't totally agree with it, plus it has that convenient angle of the therapist being able to label the client resistant if their therapy doesn't immediately help (because the client must be clinging onto the disorder for some payoff). 

Ask your therapist if she has successfully treated anxiety, specifically social anxiety in the past, and if so, how she went about that. Most therapists aren't trained in treating anxiety. It sounds to me like if this idea that you are staying anxious for the payoff is her sole way of treating you then get a new therapist and screen better this time! Ask how they intend to treat social anxiety and make sure they are kind and empathic. Did your current therapist even try to understand and empathize with you?


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

UPDATE:

It seems that not only I expect to be rejected in social situations, act like they already rejected me, and the fulfilled prophecy occurs, and in the end I'm indeed rejected, but...here is the shocking part... in my unconscious I make all possible efforts and *want* to be rejected to confirm my story that I am a weirdo, freak, undesirable person etc, cause, as I said before, I have something to gain. It's a paradox, cause consciously I want to *not *be rejected and I try to make serious efforts to be accepted.

And it seems that the gains earned from maintaining my 'nobody wants my company' story doesn't even have to be that great. Compared to what I would gain if I actually be able to make friends, a gf and hold a job, that would be way more bigger gains that my s*itty life story has given me so far.

I'm just pissed off that my life is currently governed by this retarded and inflexible entity called my unconscious. Therapist also told me that if I try to rationalize like I did above and ask logical questions, this entity will prove even more resistant. What I have to do is free speech, say whatever comes into my mind, then make the connections and see why I'm I want to be stuck in my story with the benefits. If I discovered them all that is. Theory now is that there may even be greater ones, hidden ones, hidden from my conscious view. That's what are we trying to work on now at the sessions.



marsia said:


> In the master's degree program for becoming a therapist it is taught that with most disorders, people stay in them because they are getting some payoff for the behavior or they wouldn't do it. It is a generic teaching, and I don't totally agree with it, plus it has that convenient angle of the therapist being able to label the client resistant if their therapy doesn't immediately help (because the client must be clinging onto the disorder for some payoff).
> 
> Ask your therapist if she has successfully treated anxiety, specifically social anxiety in the past, and if so, how she went about that. Most therapists aren't trained in treating anxiety. It sounds to me like if this idea that you are staying anxious for the payoff is her sole way of treating you then get a new therapist and screen better this time! Ask how they intend to treat social anxiety and make sure they are kind and empathic. Did your current therapist even try to understand and empathize with you?


Thanks for the advice. Well she told me it wouldn't immediately help, but I should start feeling results in half a year-a year, and the whole therapy may even take 2-5 years, if not more. She told me she had other patients with social phobia, but I'm her most severe case in all her carrier of ~20 years. She said the results are permanent, and I will not have a rebound, like I had with CBT or exposure therapy.

She told me it's hard for her to imagine the anxiety I feel in social situations cause she doesn't experience it herself, but it seems she is trying to make efforts and be emphatic. At the same time, she seems a little reserved and cold, but that may be cause she is an introvert ? I dunno, I kinda suck at reading people, I have Asperger's. I started this therapy in July, I'm willing to stay for 1 year, if I don't see at least some results the next summer (lower social anxiety), I'll switch to someone else.


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## marsia (Mar 22, 2016)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> It seems that not only I expect to be rejected in social situations, act like they already rejected me, and the fulfilled prophecy occurs, and in the end I'm indeed rejected, but...here is the shocking part... in my unconscious I make all possible efforts and *want* to be rejected to confirm my story that I am a weirdo, freak, undesirable person etc, cause, as I said before, I have something to gain. It's a paradox, cause consciously I want to *not *be rejected and I try to make serious efforts to be accepted.
> 
> ...


Maybe also get a book on Acceptance and Commitment therapy. I like it because you work out your goals for life and focus on them instead on avoiding social anxiety (and hence avoiding social situations, which severely limits your life.) That way when you are in social situations, you have positive goals you really care about to focus on. Good luck, and it does sound like probably your therapist knows what she is doing, she just is a long-term therapist. Maybe you would want to talk with her about her reservedness and talk about how you could feel more comfortable in therapy. Good luck!


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

Yeah I believe in this theory too. Seems like we have an easier life but sucks when they call us lazy.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

truant said:


> There are benefits to almost anything, and you can get attached to those benefits. But the benefits don't have to be greater than the losses.
> 
> Think of it this way: You experience anxiety when talking to another person (could be for almost any number of reasons). One solution is to talk to that person anyway and experience the anxiety. The other is to avoid talking to the person and avoid experiencing the anxiety. If you have no real need to talk to that person, that's generally what you'll choose to do.
> 
> ...


Wow, I like what you have to say about social anxiety.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

marsia said:


> In the master's degree program for becoming a therapist it is taught that with most disorders, people stay in them because they are getting some payoff for the behavior or they wouldn't do it. It is a generic teaching, and I don't totally agree with it, plus it has that convenient angle of the therapist being able to label the client resistant if their therapy doesn't immediately help (because the client must be clinging onto the disorder for some payoff).
> 
> Ask your therapist if she has successfully treated anxiety, specifically social anxiety in the past, and if so, how she went about that. Most therapists aren't trained in treating anxiety. It sounds to me like if this idea that you are staying anxious for the payoff is her sole way of treating you then get a new therapist and screen better this time! Ask how they intend to treat social anxiety and make sure they are kind and empathic. Did your current therapist even try to understand and empathize with you?


Man that's crazy! Makes sense now why my psychologist recommended prozac to me when I wasn't opening up to her after she went all out for me.


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## marsia (Mar 22, 2016)

SwtSurrender said:


> Man that's crazy! Makes sense now why my psychologist recommended prozac to me when I wasn't opening up to her after she went all out for me.


Yeah, unfortunately the field of psychology can be political and myopic at times. You really have to screen well, and if you are seeing a psychologist under your insurance, you usually won't get enough sessions if you are going about a serious, long term problem. Also there are so many forms of therapy, some of which don't agree at all. Really practicing psychology is an art form, although some of the best forms of therapy are based on actual science.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

I saw the movie Eat Pray Love and they talk about how silence is a form of meditation or something, so you see it's okay to have selective mutism cuz it's a form of meditation/relaxation or vow you take. Okay so I unconsciously decided to have selective mutism and social anxiety to protect myself from the harmful world? Then when I was taking prozac I attached myself to the harmful world against my will and got hurt! Only when I got hurt I learned new things tho! Yes, it all makes sense now, I was just protecting myself but surely if I was never hurt I wouldn't have learned important life lessons.

Also in that movie they say you should do nothing more often. Well with SA we do nothing the majority of our lives almost so that's good! Doing nothing is a form of meditation and not too many people do nothing these days. It also mentions to do nothing more often in the How Rude! book. How nice! Do nothing!


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

truant said:


> As far as your 'unconscious' goes, I think it's often a matter of underestimating just how ashamed you are about certain inadequacies. Or not understanding why you actually feel ashamed about something. I don't necessarily think it has to be unconscious, just a misjudgment on your part. Though it's also possible that you're ashamed of something and haven't realized it yet. It's like being prejudiced but not realizing it. Sometimes we don't discover things about ourselves until other people point them out.


Mhm.


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## Kevin001 (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't care what benefits people get by having SA, the bad outweighs the good. Its hell for me at least. I'm really trying to improve daily.


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## Rainyfall (May 17, 2016)

The problem with this theory that somehow we all unconsciously want to have SA is that it doesn't take in account a physical cause of anxiety. So if you get diabetes did your subconscious think somehow you'd benefit from it? If you buy into the idea that SA is all 100% from a bad attitude then this theory would make sense. But if you physically have more anxiety, and have learned to fear situations, then it isn't all your thoughts. Sure your thoughts could be part of it. But I suspect there is more going on at a physical level, in the brain and body to cause SA.

People with SA avoid socializing because the payoff is less anxiety and avoiding panic attacks. If you've ever had panic attacks before, I'd say that avoiding them is a huge benefit in the moment. Problem is it won't be later on.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

Rainyfall said:


> The problem with this theory that somehow we all unconsciously want to have SA is that it doesn't take in account a physical cause of anxiety. So if you get diabetes did your subconscious think somehow you'd benefit from it? If you buy into the idea that SA is all 100% from a bad attitude then this theory would make sense. But if you physically have more anxiety, and have learned to fear situations, then it isn't all your thoughts. Sure your thoughts could be part of it. But I suspect there is more going on at a physical level, in the brain and body to cause SA.
> 
> People with SA avoid socializing because the payoff is less anxiety and avoiding panic attacks. If you've ever had panic attacks before, I'd say that avoiding them is a huge benefit in the moment. Problem is it won't be later on.


Yeah the diabetes part can work, like your subconscious isn't getting enough healthy food and it can sense that somehow with the connection of hormones and your overall lack of wellbeing. So you might get scared and do anything you can to avoid getting diabetes. But if you do get diabetes then you're still eating healthy anyway and having control of your blood sugar. I guess it's all about homeostasis and control - we want to survive and live so our subconscious does anything to pass the message to us. Kinda scary.


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## Rainyfall (May 17, 2016)

SwtSurrender said:


> Yeah the diabetes part can work, like your subconscious isn't getting enough healthy food and it can sense that somehow with the connection of hormones and your overall lack of wellbeing. So you might get scared and do anything you can to avoid getting diabetes. But if you do get diabetes then you're still eating healthy anyway and having control of your blood sugar. I guess it's all about homeostasis and control - we want to survive and live so our subconscious does anything to pass the message to us. Kinda scary.


I don't think you have almost any control over getting diabetes, unless you get it because you are overweight, type 2. I was mostly talking about type 1, (I should have been more clear) where it is autoimmune and you cannot control it with diet or lifestyle changes. My point was that physical issues have little to do with the subconscious, I believe there are very few messages from the subconscious, and if there are they are not literal, they are much more abstract. You are born with certain genetics that you can't change. Unless we are talking about epigenetics.


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## Alexstone71 (Apr 29, 2017)

I went to therapist and cost me a small fortune in a short period .it wasn't worth it 
It is good for people under 30.
But telling me that the pain I am in is my choice is abuses .what is this such a thing can cause break down to some one this middle age crab


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

Rainyfall said:


> I don't think you have almost any control over getting diabetes, unless you get it because you are overweight, type 2. I was mostly talking about type 1, (I should have been more clear) where it is autoimmune and you cannot control it with diet or lifestyle changes. My point was that physical issues have little to do with the subconscious, I believe there are very few messages from the subconscious, and if there are they are not literal, they are much more abstract. You are born with certain genetics that you can't change. Unless we are talking about epigenetics.


Oh didn't know that about diabetes, cool! Yeah then most likely it's to do with genetics and with genetics you get something because it was passed down as an advantage or disadvantage to your ancestry line. It's how they managed to adapt to life and Darwin thought that you'd be happy to have it too in your life. It's so strange!


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

I think you can subconsciously create a psychological crutch such as social anxiety in a time of psychological distress to soothe your needs and wants. Something happened to cause us to use social anxiety to protect ourselves from people. For me it was definitely bullying in school and just from one bad social experience you start to think about it over and over again and would do anything not to experience the same harm in the future. For me the bullying happened repetitively until I was scarred for life. Thus the brain decided to use social anxiety, it's like a terrible avoidance to anything having to do with social events in the future. You know it's irrational but still your brain has decided on what's best for you. From then on it's hard to talk it out of it since its so scared out of its mind and keeps reminding you what happened and how bad it felt until you begin to agree with it. It's amazing how protective and destructive our own brain can be at the same time! We just have to learn that it's okay to get hurt, and find ways to speak to the brain rationally about stuff that its scared of that'll happen to us again. The same way you've been repeated into social anxiety you can repeat yourself back out, but this time it's with rational self talk before every social situation, in between, and afterwards. In time your brain will feel different and you'll be free. Works well with Dr. Richards CBT.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

I was reading about the fight or flight response and the primary system it's coming from is the autonomic nervous system which functions unconsciously and involuntarily and houses the sympathetic nervous system which functions in emergencies and acceleration of physiological responses. The fight and flight response gets activated in the sympathetic nervous system automatically and involuntarily when we feel threatened/danger. Cool stuff man! I was thinking probably there must be some hypersensitivity to our genetic predisposition to the sensitivity of stress. I searched for physiological responses of anxiety and I got stress popping up, and then I found out that stress and anxiety are the same thing. Or that too much stress or chronic stress causes the physiological responses of anxiety or how we deal with stress. I was also thinking how I got myself into this mess that could have been prevented with childhood+late adulthood medication or better parenting.


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