# Does codeine cause brain damage?



## BladeRunnerB26354 (Apr 12, 2012)

I've read a few interesting posts about the use of codeine for SA and depression.

My concern about modest doses of pure codeine (IE no paracetomol) is that it affects my short term memory a great deal for the day I've taken it and a couple of days after, dose dependant.

I can't find any information online that says codeine causes brain damage as things like benzos do, so wondered if any of you knew of studies that discussed this?

Thanks


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## istayhome (Apr 4, 2012)

I've never heard/read anything to suggest that it causes brain damage. Opiates have been used for centuries, and in opium smoking communities people use them life-long without any apparent ill-effects besides addiction.

I think long-term use would change your neural pathways, so once you quit codiene it would take your brain awhile to form new pathways. That's essentially the experience of withdrawal. 

"brain damage" sounds so scary but it's really just a fact of life that as we get older our brains just like our bodies deteriorate. That's not to say we shouldn't do everything we can to keep a healthy mind and body. But compared to all the other psychotropic drugs out there codeine is probably at the safe end of the spectrum.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

I have no idea about brain damage with them, but they will impair you cognitively while on them. They will also deplete your androgens over time when used consistently, and cause constipation that you will never become tolerant to. They also can cause depression long term via the kappa opioid receptor activity. All these are dose dependent and dependent on the strength of the opioid I assume.

Have fun.


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

Short answer, no. Long answer if you use codeine over a very extended period of time it will cause adaptations and changes in your brain (mostly related to mood but possibly also some relating to cognition) which will naturally take time to reverse.


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

Dr House said:


> I have no idea about brain damage with them, but they will impair you cognitively while on them. They will also deplete your androgens over time when used consistently, and *cause constipation that you will never become tolerant to.* They also can cause depression long term via the kappa opioid receptor activity. All these are dose dependent and dependent on the strength of the opioid I assume.
> 
> Have fun.


I became tolerant to constipation caused by opiates.


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## T-Bone (Oct 1, 2010)

Recipe For Disaster said:


> I became tolerant to constipation caused by opiates.


I haven't had a solid bowel movement since i stopped taking opiates years ago


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

really? why? please dont tell me opiate withdrawal lasts years like benzo wd


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## T-Bone (Oct 1, 2010)

Recipe For Disaster said:


> really? why? please dont tell me opiate withdrawal lasts years like benzo wd


Not sure whats going on really. I've had tests done and everything seems to cool so far? Maybe its because i went back to having anxiety since i'm not shooting dope anymore? Or maybe it's my liver failing? I dunno. I don't enjoy peeing out of my butt every morning though.


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## istayhome (Apr 4, 2012)

how long were you on opiates for? Chronic constipation can cause a variety of bowel problems which you may be suffering from. It might be worth seeing a doctor and it might require surgery.

Edit: I see that you've had tests done. I just know a few long-term opiate users who have ended up with irreversible bowel problems after years of constipation.


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## reef88 (Mar 5, 2012)

istayhome said:


> I've never heard/read anything to suggest that it causes brain damage. Opiates have been used for centuries, and in opium smoking communities people use them life-long without any apparent ill-effects besides addiction.
> 
> I think long-term use would change your neural pathways, so once you quit codiene it would take your brain awhile to form new pathways. That's essentially the experience of withdrawal.
> 
> "brain damage" sounds so scary but it's really just a fact of life that as we get older our brains just like our bodies deteriorate. That's not to say we shouldn't do everything we can to keep a healthy mind and body. But compared to all the other psychotropic drugs out there codeine is probably at the safe end of the spectrum.


About those opium communities, it could be great smoking all that opium forever, I can only imagine my life revolving around opium, not too many things would get done.


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## T-Bone (Oct 1, 2010)

istayhome said:


> how long were you on opiates for? Chronic constipation can cause a variety of bowel problems which you may be suffering from. It might be worth seeing a doctor and it might require surgery.
> 
> Edit: I see that you've had tests done.* I just know a few long-term opiate users who have ended up with irreversible bowel problems after years of constipation.*


Yea i've heard that. I've heard people say diarrhea "comes and goes" for years sometimes after stopping heroin. Mine has seemed to stay pretty constant.


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## istayhome (Apr 4, 2012)

reef88 said:


> About those opium communities, it could be great smoking all that opium forever, I can only imagine my life revolving around opium, not too many things would get done.


Historically, a hell of a lot got done in China throughout the many dynasties all the while opium was widely used. Even much later when the East India Trading company was formed it was so that the English could produce opium in India to trade with the Chinese in exchange for spices, etc. That's right, the Chinese were consuming so much Opium that they had to import it, yet they still remained plenty productive. Opiate/opioid dependence is certainly not synonymous with not getting anything done. I know a lot of people who've fallen into addiction and the only thing they care to get done is find their next fix, but just like people can be functional alcoholics they can also be functional opium addicts.

Heroin was widely used when it hit the shelves by just about everyone and the world kept spinning. Germany damn near took over the world while Hitler, the generals and the troops widely used morphine. US troops in WWI and II used morphine and benzedrine to reduce pain and fatigue and they put up one hell of a fight. The list goes on.


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## Recipe For Disaster (Jun 8, 2010)

I find that being on a large dose of opiates causes me to need to get about 12 hours of sleep per night and I am generally lazier than without opiates. However, I am still quite capable of getting things done, especially physical labor ( I feel like the laziness is more mental than physical and my body still wants to work) unlike with marijuana where I dont feel like moving.


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## BladeRunnerB26354 (Apr 12, 2012)

Interesting posts guys.

So regular (almost daily) codeine use is a bad idea for many reasons - over time it will cause depression, as well as the tolerance and dependency issues. But I don't have to worry about brain damage.

BUT occasional use, say once a week in very social situations like parties in place of alcohol (I don't drink alcohol at all) would be fine?

I find 60mg of codeine and then 75mg a few hours later in such settings gives me a good, relaxed sense of well being. Similar to 3 or 4 beers but better - no stupid behaviour and more empathy, and I never go on an alcohol downer with codeine.

I would also find it useful at work based functions where colleagues drink a lot.


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## BladeRunnerB26354 (Apr 12, 2012)

Bump for more codeine experiences.

I remember reading about a SAS member who took very low dose codeine each day, and found it very effective for SA. They said the key was not to keep looking for the euphoria, rather very low dose frequent use has a much more subtle but positive effect on SA.

I have a repeat prescription for 150 of 15mg pure codeine, which I can get once a month, because I have a slipped disc, but I rarely use it. In theory though, I would be able to use 15 or 30mg each day through the prescription.


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## bazinga (Jun 9, 2010)

Most opiates aren't really neurotoxic nor are they hepatoxic. I am a firm believer in opiates for anxiety and depression although doctors would not agree with me.

If they're so easy to hand out benzodiazepines I don't see the harm in low doses of opiates. Abuse potential is just the same. It varies from person to person. Moderation is key.


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## bazinga (Jun 9, 2010)

SomebodyWakeME said:


> Not sure whats going on really. I've had tests done and everything seems to cool so far? Maybe its because i went back to having anxiety since i'm not shooting dope anymore? Or maybe it's my liver failing? I dunno. I don't enjoy peeing out of my butt every morning though.


Maybe try using kratom for diarrhea.


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## BladeRunnerB26354 (Apr 12, 2012)

bazinga said:


> Most opiates aren't really neurotoxic nor are they hepatoxic. I am a firm believer in opiates for anxiety and depression although doctors would not agree with me.
> 
> If they're so easy to hand out benzodiazepines I don't see the harm in low doses of opiates. Abuse potential is just the same. It varies from person to person. Moderation is key.


Yeah I've briefly read that about neurotoxicity - that even very strong opiates like morphine and heroin are not particularly neurotoxic, it's the impurities in illegally sourced opiate drugs that do the damage.

As a result many long term users of hard opiates can detox and then lead normal lives, as it doesn't do the brain damage that things like long term heavy drinking does.

When you say low doses of things like codeine, what would you say is an acceptable way to use it?

Do you recommend as needed for unusual very stressful situations, or everyday but lower use as a regular medication?

I take the SSRI citalopram and also the tricyclic amatriptyline. As I know SSRIs inhibit the conversion of codeine to morphine, if I have a big event coming up (like next weekend I have to go to a dinner party with people I hardly know = very stressful) I stop my SSRI 2 days before, so the codeine can work more effectively, then resume the SSRI as normal the next day.

^ Actually I often have weekend "holidays" from the SSRI, for the accepted method of decreasing the sex side effects like low libido and lower (!) functioning.

^ In that case I have no SSRI on Friday and Saturday, and take my Sunday dose in the evening. This is if I wanted the libido benefit on Saturday and Sunday daytime.

It means at weekends I can have a better sex life with my GF and seems to help. I believe Citalopram's half life is around 30 hours.


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