# Maybe not everyone is supposed to have gfs/bfs?



## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm a member on 3 different dating sites currently. I've seen through probably 300 profiles, out of all of these maybe 2-4 are interesting. The extremly few I find attractive barely ever have any profile texts because they just rely on their looks and I dont want to contact them when they dont bother to make an effort themselves, says a lot about them I think.

So what I end up with is contacting this handful of girls I think seem both interesting and attractive. One of them was interested back. We have gone on two dates now (which I think went very well) but she's really shy so I asked her a little about it and she said that she "develop relationship feelings slowly". Which I'm guessing means she isnt interested. After a couple of dates one normally knows if things are going forward or not.

So what I'm left with is being alone again, noone interested in me. Is there maybe something wrong with me? Is it the way I look or act or am as a person?

I dont know but right now its another sunday alone, sad, giving up what little hope I've had about getting someone to care for and that likes me back. Maybe I should just get a bunch of dogs and give up :/

Anyone else have it the same way?


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

If she really is shy what she said about developing relationship feelings slowly sounds perfectly legit. What exactly did you ask her? And if you didn't go for a kiss yet (just assuming), why didn't you yet? Also, have you asked her on a third date and she said no?


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

I told her I was taking things slow because she seemed so shy so she answered that she had to get "used to things". When I asked what this meant she told me that she didnt know where things were going and that she develops feelings very slowly. I think this is just an excuse for not having to tell me she doesnt see a relationship in the future.

I havent gone for a kiss since she is very closed off, we sat on the couch watching a movie and she sat in the opposite corner of me, not exactly inviting. I have asked and she said i depended on if she had to have an exam or not (she'd know tomorrow or tuesday). 

But she has also said that shes care free and is just taking things as they come.

She is the one girl that has been interested in me (of maybe 4 girls over the last months) that I've actually liked and of course she doesnt feel the same way. FML is all I can say, I'm doomed to be alone :/ 

And tbh I dont get why. I'm average looking I think, I'm a good person, I'm fun to be around, I'm an excellent boyfriend, and even though I'm "bragging" now I'm not full of myself and all high and mighty.

I just dont see why I'm so uninteresting. Maybe I'm just ultra boring.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Cracking shy girls is not easy...they really do take a long time to feel comfortable. Ask her on a third date. Based on her reaction, then you can gauge more accurately whether or not she's interested in you.

You are definitely overthinking things, though. After two dates you are already thinking relationship? Take it slow, man. If you really do like her in that way, there's no need to get ahead of yourself. Don't want to go for a kiss? Fine, then next time put your arm around her while you are on the couch. I remember that with your first relationship you were extreeeemely hesitant to be physical, and that's what made things fall apart. Don't let that happen again. Don't overdo it since she's shy, but you need to progress physically or things will just fizzle and then she truly _won't_ be interested.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

I did put my arm around her on the couch but even that in hindsight was too much for her. 

Also I want to go for a kiss, but when she is uncomfortable with a thing as innocent as a hand around her on the couch a kiss would just kill the whole thing.

And yes, I was hoping this would lead to a relationship. She is everything I am looking for but she isnt interested anymore so doesnt matter.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Nessy said:


> I did put my arm around her on the couch but even that in hindsight was too much for her.
> 
> Also I want to go for a kiss, but when she is uncomfortable with a thing as innocent as a hand around her on the couch a kiss would just kill the whole thing.
> 
> And yes, I was hoping this would lead to a relationship. She is everything I am looking for but she isnt interested anymore so doesnt matter.


Again, ask her on a third date. If she says no, then you know for sure.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Like I wrote earlier I already have. She finds out tomorrow or tuesday if she has to have an oral exam or not.


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## sansd (Mar 22, 2006)

Nessy said:


> I told her I was taking things slow because she seemed so shy so she answered that she had to get "used to things". When I asked what this meant she told me that she didnt know where things were going and that she develops feelings very slowly. I think this is just an excuse for not having to tell me she doesnt see a relationship in the future.


I don't think you should assume it's an excuse. It would take me a while to decide how much I liked someone and develop feelings for them, and also to get used to and comfortable with them.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Finding the right person online is much harder in my opinion.

First step is to try meeting women in person at different places. There are beautiful/cool girls everywhere. Out of 300 profiles, you only found a few who you were interested in? I think this says more about you being picky than anything else because that's ridiculous.

If it takes 300 profiles for you to sift through just to find a few who interest you then that means you are probably looking in the wrong places. I can go out to the store and find more girls than that in a couple hours! If I go out to the bar I'll see plenty of girls I'd like to approach. There is definitely something wrong here.
*
"Maybe not everyone is supposed to have gfs/bfs?"* = lamest excuse EVER

Maybe instead of giving up you should try something different because 300 profiles doesn't sound good to me. But I've been there. Online sucks. Ditch online and go meet women in real life. Your life will change.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

I dont think its a lame excuse. I cant attract women, so I'm not supposed to get a gf, isnt all that silly. 

Though you are right in that its strange that I can barely find a handful of interesting women out of 300. If I go to the mall I can easily find 20 girls I'd like to talk to in 10 mins.

Problem is that I cant make myself actually talk to them. I've tried :/ I freeze up and cant open my mouth 

I think I just have a very particular taste. Though the look of women I find attractive varies a lot. I can find "average" girls way more attractive then what the standard definition of beautiful women are. So its not that I got super high standards but yes, I might be picky.

Though pictures can lie and make a person look more or less attractive then they actually look like IRL. But I might try to force myself to talk to girls IRL again, not sure how sucessful it'll be though.


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## sas111 (Oct 20, 2010)

I completely agree & understand where you are coming from. Some people just aren't lucky in that sense, & will never be, simple as that & it's best to just accept that fact, move on & find a way to be content with yourself. I have to do this, no other option, it is an absolute must, I know that for sure now.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Nessy said:


> I dont think its a lame excuse. I cant attract women, so I'm not supposed to get a gf, isnt all that silly.
> 
> Though you are right in that its strange that I can barely find a handful of interesting women out of 300. If I go to the mall I can easily find 20 girls I'd like to talk to in 10 mins.
> 
> ...


Oh man, PLEASE start approaching girls in real life! From reading this I sincerely think online is crushing you like it did me. I am tell you, offline is HEAPS better.

When you approach a girl you say this, "Hey, random, but I thought you were cute and I wanted to say hi. What's your name?" Then keep talking and then ask for her number. That's it.

You don't even KNOW the possibilities yet because you are _severely _limiting yourself, especially not approaching women in real life. DITCH ONLINE AND APPROACHING IN REAL LIFE. Trust me and just ditch it and just start approaching women in real life the way I said and you will realize the potential I'm talking about. I was like you last year but left online and now women are chasing me. Totally different. Everything has changed and in the last few months I've proven more to myself than years of other ways.

Instead of giving up and basing sch a negative reality off of ****ty dating sites where there is a huge problem, you need to look elsewhere and away from what doesn't work.

If you still don't believe that meeting women in real life from approaching is easy you need to BELIEVE again, and here is a place of great motivation:

http://www.simplepickup.com/videos/

There is so much potential for us to meet so many girls, you just don't see it yet because you haven't experienced what I've experienced. I'm not even trying to sell or promote anything...i'm literally saying this because i want you to know.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Again I think using online as an additional way to meet girls is fine. Using it as a crutch? Not so great. Using it to supplement your meeting girls? Awesome.

Anyways, nessy you've already gotten girls so to say you're destined to not have a gf really is the most ridiculous thing ever. If we go back to this girl in question that you really like, you don't even know whether or not she doesn't want to go out with you again, so why are you jumping to conclusions? And even if it turned out she didn't want to for whatever reason, what does that have to do with every other girl in the world? You can't expect that just because you're an awesome guy every girl you go on dates with will want to be with you lol. The most charming guys in the world don't have a 100% success rate. Stop making such sweeping generalizations about your chances with women just because of one girl POTENTIALLY not wanting to be with you.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Maybe I'm being silly.. Just getting so frustrated by how I'm not any closer to having a girlfriend after many months of trying.

Just got an invitation to go get a coffee by a girl I havent spoken with, she doesnt have a picture so I have no idea how she looks, but I think I'll accept anyway. If we dont get along or she isnt attractive its just one wasted evening. Nice with some more experience


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Going out with the aforementioned girl for a third date today. Going on a hike/picnic, hoping to see if she seems more interested or not.


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## Iota (Mar 24, 2010)

I went on several dates, more than three, before I ever moved further with a guy. I feel like you have to know the person first and build some sort of comfort-level. So, I was friends first. That is my experience. All girls are different. But guys that moved on me on the first or second date were guys I avoided afterwards. Too much too fast. But that is just me. Good luck! I hope you find a great gf. If you are trying, it will happen.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

I understand of course that people are comfortable at different speeds, which makes me think maybe we arent cut out for each other. By the time she will be comfortable kissing I will probably have lost my feelings for her and moved on :/ But I'll do my best and give it a few more shots before I decide anything.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Nessy said:


> I understand of course that people are comfortable at different speeds, which makes me think maybe we arent cut out for each other. By the time she will be comfortable kissing I will probably have lost my feelings for her and moved on :/ But I'll do my best and give it a few more shots before I decide anything.


Congrats on the third date.

It's amazing that in one breath you could want her to be your girlfriend (that's a serious step), and in another you say you might lose your feelings for her if she doesn't kiss you soon. If she's worth it, then you should be able to wait.

THAT BEING SAID, you shouldn't wait for her to be "ready" to kiss you. How in the world are you going to know if she's ready? She's certainly not going to go for a kiss, and like you said it could be light years before she shows any kind of physical affection to you. I'm not a fan of dating shy girls for this reason, the patience and guesswork you have to do are too much. But I would just continue to try to escalate physically, holding her hand, putting your arm around her, touching her on the shoulder or leg when you or she says something funny, etc. The more she gets used to your touch, the more comfortable she will feel, and the more likely she will be receptive to a kiss. Good luck!


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

rymo said:


> Congrats on the third date.
> 
> It's amazing that in one breath you could want her to be your girlfriend (that's a serious step), and in another you say you might lose your feelings for her if she doesn't kiss you soon. If she's worth it, then you should be able to wait.


 Love ain't logical. It seems if you wait too long before things get physical you get put in the friends zone. That seems to work for both men and women.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

scarpia said:


> Love ain't logical. It seems if you wait too long before things get physical you get put in the friends zone. That seems to work for both men and women.


I agree, but he was saying he wanted her to be his gf at first. It just seems a bit much after only 2 dates. Maybe a lot of people don't take the whole gf/bf thing very seriously. I just know for me I'm not getting into another relationship with someone unless I KNOW I want to be with that person.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

The friend zone is a myth. The girl is either attracted to you or she isn't. Stop giving socially awkward guys false hope that they have a chance with cute girls who have plenty of options if they assert themselves and play stupid pua games. Because that's a load of BS. If you're going after a cute girl, what makes you so special compared to all the other guys that are trying to win her over?


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

Well reading this:


Nessy said:


> I did put my arm around her on the couch but even that in hindsight was too much for her.
> 
> Also I want to go for a kiss, but when she is uncomfortable with a thing as innocent as a hand around her on the couch a kiss would just kill the whole thing.
> 
> And yes, I was hoping this would lead to a relationship. She is everything I am looking for but she isnt interested anymore so doesnt matter.


makes it look like he might have to keep at it for a year before things progress. Or maybe it;s not shyness and she has a really low need for physical intimacy. If his needs are high and hers are low it will not work out.

It won't be easy, but maybe the OP should open up and talk directly about this to the girl. Ask if she just wants to be friends and say that is the feeling he is getting from her. Does that make sense?



phoenixwright said:


> The friend zone is a myth. The girl is either attracted to you or she isn't. Stop giving socially awkward guys false hope that they have a chance with cute girls who have plenty of options if they assert themselves and play stupid pua games. Because that's a load of BS. If you're going after a cute girl, what makes you so special compared to all the other guys that are trying to win her over?


 I think that may be a good topic for a separte thread.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Date went well, she was a tiny bit more physical this time. Poked me one time, cleaned some grass of my face and we had a thumbwar 

Really not sure what I want to do next. We got into talking a bit about our families and such and she seems to be having a horrible time at home. Her dad being an ahole and she says she doesnt even feel welcome in her own home :/ Really feel sad for her.

We also talked a bit about religion because she is a Jehovas Witness, while I consider myself a christian. She mentioned that a lot of people in her religion marry really fast because they cant have sex before they are married (she didnt use that direct words) but she also said that a lot of them had sex before marriage as well and that if a kid got in the picture they got married reallllly fast.

So I'm not completely sure if she is saying she that she is open for sex before marriage or not. She told me that the guys she had been out with before were Jehovas Witness as well and they werent exactly her type, either 30 (shes 20) or too young when I asked why she was dating outside her religion (seeing as how they are quite strict). Also, indirectly called me cute earlier ^^

She is opening up as a person but still lacking a bit on the physical front. Which I'm guessing is natural, because I actually think she hasnt kissed anyone before (though she mentioned she had had a BF, no idea when though, might have been in kindergarten for all I know).

I feel she is a great girl, I like her personality and her looks. But there is absolutely 0 sexual tension, which is rather boring. I feel like I'm going out with a friend :/

When I think about her I cant help but smile, which I guess is quite positive  I think I'm going to go on another date with her, ask her if she hasnt kissed anyone before and tell her I'd like to kiss her then go for it. 

If I do get to kiss her and feel nothing I guess its game over. Will have to ask her about her opinion on sex before I do though. If she is waiting untill marriage I'm not the right guy for her.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Nessy said:


> Date went well, she was a tiny bit more physical this time. Poked me one time, cleaned some grass of my face and we had a thumbwar
> 
> Really not sure what I want to do next. We got into talking a bit about our families and such and she seems to be having a horrible time at home. Her dad being an ahole and she says she doesnt even feel welcome in her own home :/ Really feel sad for her.
> 
> ...


All sounds pretty logical to me. Great job. Now stop jumping to conclusions just because not every girl is perfect for you or vice versa!


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

Just looked this up about Jehovah's Witnesses on wiki: All sexual relations outside of marriage are grounds for expulsion if the individual is not deemed repentant.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

One thing that is worrying me a bit if she is open to sex before marriage is how she will look at sex. If she just connects it with shame and sin I'm guessing it wont be that good (and maybe she wont ever really like it and open up physically).

What to do, what to do..


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

Just because she won't have sex before marriage doesn't mean she won't want to have sex after marriage. But it's hard to know.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

scarpia said:


> Just because she won't have sex before marriage doesn't mean she won't want to have sex after marriage. But it's hard to know.


Who in their right mind really wants to wait for after marriage to have sex with someone?


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Someone who followed their religions rules thoroughlly?  My religion forbids it as well but I've had sex already and think its a stupid, outdated rule only made to keep the place from being littered with "*******s".


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

b.astards*

Think it if this doesnt work out I'm going to go for more outgoing women who show a bit more what they want and are more comfortable with being physical. Much easier to escalate with.

With first gf we didnt make out (only kissed) in 1 month, with second gf we made out first evening, had sex the second. So its really strange how different views girls can have on being physical.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Nessy said:


> *Someone who followed their religions rules thoroughlly*?  My religion forbids it as well but I've had sex already and think its a stupid, outdated rule only made to keep the place from being littered with "*******s".


I asked who in their _right_ mind? :b

I think you're right - you should go for more outgoing women. You want the experience and you want to meet women, and you don't necessarily want to deal with bringing them out of their shell and all that. Which is perfectly understandable. We have enough issues of our own, and at your age you don't want to be dealing with that stuff. This is the time to come out of your shell and have fun, not be with someone who wants to wait forever to have sex.


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

Some people have a different definition of sex - we have Bill Clinton rules here - oral does not count. Check the rules of her religion - maybe that's a loophole!


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Oral sex is sex.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

srschirm said:


> Oral sex is sex.


lol wut? I have to agree with Scarpia, oral sex is not sex. By your definition people can lose their virginity from oral sex. Obviously people have different views on the subject, but I just know people who performed/received oral in high school but didn't lose their virginity until much later. For girls especially, sex was a much bigger step and more intimate than oral.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> lol wut? I have to agree with Scarpia, oral sex is not sex. By your definition people can lose their virginity from oral sex. Obviously people have different views on the subject, but I just know people who performed/received oral in high school but didn't lose their virginity until much later. For girls especially, sex was a much bigger step and more intimate than oral.


If Oral sex wasn't sex, they would call it oral something else. Also by this definition, lesbians can't have sex then because they are incapable of penetration? Or men who have sex with men can't have sex because they are going through the wrong entrance? 

I understand the whole "virginity" thing and the cultural significance of "going all the way." It's a left over from the puritanical American heritage. I just think it's silly. It's more pure to stick a penis in your mouth than your vagina? I don't get that. In the old days, men would beg their wives for blowjobs. Nowadays in our culture for whatever reason, giving a guy a blowjob is somehow seen as more ok than having coitus with him too soon (dear gosh, that would be too ****ty *gasp*).

The American attitude towards oral sex as "not real sex" is also having detrimental effects on society. Oral sex is now the leading cause of new cases of oral cancer. Ahead of tobacco. HPV can be transmitted through oral sex and certain strands of HPV can lead to cancer.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Yeah, oral sex is sex. What is with guys saying they just want to eat you out and nothing else? And they try to bulls*** and say that reciprocation is not necessary. I've seen many ads saying that on craigslist.


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

komorikun said:


> Yeah, oral sex is sex. What is with guys saying they just want to eat you out and nothing else? And they try to bulls*** and say that reciprocation is not necessary. I've seen many ads saying that on craigslist.


I would be similar to those guys. Receiving oral doesn't do as much for me as giving would.

They are probably hoping that oral sex will lead to real sex. :idea


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

See? Everyone has their own opinion. Check with the girl Nessy.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Classified said:


> I would be similar to those guys. Receiving oral doesn't do as much for me as giving would.
> 
> They are probably hoping that oral sex will lead to real sex. :idea


That's what I thought. I don't think that most women would be anymore willing to let some guy eat them out than have sex.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Oral sex is foreplay, not sexual intercourse. 

And the friend zone does exist. However, it sounds like you weren't put in the friends zone, so I think you're ok man.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Meeting up for the 4th time today, going to go for the kiss today


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Nessy said:


> Meeting up for the 4th time today, going to go for the kiss today


:boogie


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Got into talking with her today and she said she still isnt ready to kiss.. What to do? I've already started to feel that we are just friends :/ The "magic" is gone sort of.

Tell her that we are too different and that it would be for the best that we stay just friends?


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

4th date and no kiss? wtf? I would pull the plug on this one and not waste my time but that's just me. I might be giving bad advice.

To be honest with you, I tend to have a more pessimistic slant than most. But generally speaking, whenever I have success with a girl, I just _know_. I don't even have to think about it. You're an attractive guy Nessy. I scratch my head. But I don't know man. Women are very, very selective. They're looking for that Hollywood movie magical moment where some dashing Ryan Gosling-looking mother***** woos them perfectly and says all the right things. Even if she is a plain jane herself and doesn't even bother to woo.

The whole system is downright retarded. The natural order of things is messed up since people have been delaying marriage and child rearing. But what can you do? Maybe this is why attached women with kids tend to gravitate towards me. If they were picky, they wouldn't be married or have a boyfriend. They wouldn't be "attached". I noticed a huge difference between the college students and young urban professionals in the GTA compared to this 26 year old redhead stay-at-home mother of 3 in rural Washington State that I was talking to. They have much, much different mentalities and philosophies in life. If a woman is attractive and perpetually single, that should be an immediate redflag unless she's a hermit or hikkikimori and rarely leaves their home. Because it's really not that hard to find a good boyfriend. But natural human selfishness makes people want more and more and more. Good is not enough.

I take it that the best way to find quality women is not dating sites. Dating sites are going to skew towards the perpetually single (though I know a girl that would bounce from guy to guy on dating sites. And guess what? *ding ding ding ding ding* I slept with her! lol See what I mean? Avoid women who are perpetually single). Dating sites are an option to consider. But shouldn't be the main focus. The women with realistic standards are the ones who have no trouble getting a boyfriend and don't have to bother with dating sites (though if you dig around, yes you can still run into a quality down-to-earth girl on a dating site.)


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Found out why things have been so slow and I'm quite more understanding of the situation now. Wont go into it since its pretty personal and I'm not exactly anonymous here (pictures and everything) but I'm going to give her some more time and see what happens.

With my ex-gf all the physical stuff happened very (very) fast and it ended because we couldnt even keep a conversation going. With this girl I feel more of a connection on that plane so maybe taking it slower and getting to know eachother more first might be a good thing. Aint used to it though. (or well sort of, with my first gf we only kissed and were together a couple of months, but that was because I was afraid to make a move, not her being not ready, though she was shy).


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## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

I know for a 100% fact I'm meant to be alone. Period.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

You dont know that untill you're dead  So dont give up hope


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## AustinAnxiety (Jun 21, 2012)

Shauna The Dead said:


> I know for a 100% fact I'm meant to be alone. Period.


sometimes I think that same thing too... But NOBODY deserves to be alone....


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

Nessy said:


> Found out why things have been so slow and I'm quite more understanding of the situation now. Wont go into it since its pretty personal and I'm not exactly anonymous here (pictures and everything) but I'm going to give her some more time and see what happens.
> 
> With my ex-gf all the physical stuff happened very (very) fast and it ended because we couldnt even keep a conversation going. With this girl I feel more of a connection on that plane so maybe taking it slower and getting to know eachother more first might be a good thing. Aint used to it though. (or well sort of, with my first gf we only kissed and were together a couple of months, but that was because I was afraid to make a move, not her being not ready, though she was shy).


That's why it's a good idea to stay totally anonymous on sites like this. So she has not put you in the "friends zone"?


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

scarpia said:


> That's why it's a good idea to stay totally anonymous on sites like this. So she has not put you in the "friends zone"?


I don't believe in this idea that a girl will put a guy in the "friend zone" if he doesn't make a move. Either she's into you or she isn't. I have tried to get outside of the "friend zone" with a girl recently. And it didn't work. Why? Not because I didn't act quick enough. She just might not find me attractive or she just might not be into me or feel little to no chemistry in that way.

Guys need to stop buying into this PUA nonsense. Every single time I had success with a girl, I just knew almost immediately that she was into me. Maybe I am too pessimistic and conservative and I underestimate female interest. I stand by my statement that young single women are generally very choosy and holding out for a guy that is above their league (hypergamy). The girls who are presently single but only in a transitionary type of singledom are much more realistic. I don't think it's a surprise that this smoking hot babe from my college is engaged to a guy who you could say is "beneath" her level (he's still a good looking guy in my opinion though). Women who are attached have a more realistic understanding of their market value in the dating arena. Unless they are really dating down (some do).


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> I don't believe in this idea that a girl will put a guy in the "friend zone" if he doesn't make a move. Either she's into you or she isn't. I have tried to get outside of the "friend zone" with a girl recently. And it didn't work. Why? Not because I didn't act quick enough. She just might not find me attractive or she just might not be into me or feel little to no chemistry in that way.
> 
> Guys need to stop buying into this PUA nonsense.


The fact that she might not have found you attractive to begin with is exactly what the friend zone is. You had already established some kind of rapport with her, and when you tried to make a move she denied you. But maybe if you had shown that initiative at first she would have been attracted to that confidence. YES, it is true that if she is initially attracted to you right away, then the timing may not necessarily matter. But there is something to be said about WINNING a girl over, and for that there is usually a time limit (or at least a certain graceful persistence).


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

phoenixwright said:


> If Oral sex wasn't sex, they would call it oral something else. Also by this definition, lesbians can't have sex then because they are incapable of penetration? Or men who have sex with men can't have sex because they are going through the wrong entrance?
> 
> I understand the whole "virginity" thing and the cultural significance of "going all the way." It's a left over from the puritanical American heritage. I just think it's silly. It's more pure to stick a penis in your mouth than your vagina? I don't get that. In the old days, men would beg their wives for blowjobs. Nowadays in our culture for whatever reason, giving a guy a blowjob is somehow seen as more ok than having coitus with him too soon (dear gosh, that would be too ****ty *gasp*).
> 
> The American attitude towards oral sex as "not real sex" is also having detrimental effects on society. Oral sex is now the leading cause of new cases of oral cancer. Ahead of tobacco. HPV can be transmitted through oral sex and certain strands of HPV can lead to cancer.


Spot-on here.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

phoenixwright said:


> I don't believe in this idea that a girl will put a guy in the "friend zone" if he doesn't make a move. Either she's into you or she isn't. I have tried to get outside of the "friend zone" with a girl recently. And it didn't work. Why? Not because I didn't act quick enough. She just might not find me attractive or she just might not be into me or feel little to no chemistry in that way.
> 
> Guys need to stop buying into this PUA nonsense. Every single time I had success with a girl, I just knew almost immediately that she was into me. Maybe I am too pessimistic and conservative and I underestimate female interest. I stand by my statement that young single women are generally very choosy and holding out for a guy that is above their league (hypergamy). The girls who are presently single but only in a transitionary type of singledom are much more realistic. I don't think it's a surprise that this smoking hot babe from my college is engaged to a guy who you could say is "beneath" her level (he's still a good looking guy in my opinion though). Women who are attached have a more realistic understanding of their market value in the dating arena. Unless they are really dating down (some do).


I agree with you here too. I'm not familiar with _every_ PUA tenet, but there's no way I'm pulling crap like magic tricks and having it work. Every woman I've been with has been into me in some way from the beginning.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> If Oral sex wasn't sex, they would call it oral something else. Also by this definition, lesbians can't have sex then because they are incapable of penetration? Or men who have sex with men can't have sex because they are going through the wrong entrance?
> 
> I understand the whole "virginity" thing and the cultural significance of "going all the way." It's a left over from the puritanical American heritage. I just think it's silly. It's more pure to stick a penis in your mouth than your vagina? I don't get that. In the old days, men would beg their wives for blowjobs. Nowadays in our culture for whatever reason, giving a guy a blowjob is somehow seen as more ok than having coitus with him too soon (dear gosh, that would be too ****ty *gasp*).
> 
> The American attitude towards oral sex as "not real sex" is also having detrimental effects on society. Oral sex is now the leading cause of new cases of oral cancer. Ahead of tobacco. HPV can be transmitted through oral sex and certain strands of HPV can lead to cancer.


Lesbian sex is sex because it involves the whole body, two people being one in a passionate, sensual experience. And it sure can involve penetration. But giving someone oral sex in a car, for example, is not sex. It's just oral. It's a quickie. It's not nearly as intimate. Guys beg their wives for blowjobs because they feel amazing, simple as that. The ultimate is still sex, whether it is between two people of different genders or the same. And I'm not saying oral can't be incredibly intimate, but in general sex is more mentally and emotionally intense.

All it really comes down to is how you define sex. Your definition of sex is a sexual act that can cause disease or be seen as impure. My definition of sex is a sexual act that is the ultimate physical, emotional, and sensual connection.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

rymo said:


> Lesbian sex is sex because it involves the whole body, two people being one in a passionate, sensual experience. And it sure can involve penetration. But giving someone oral sex in a car, for example, is not sex. It's just oral. It's a quickie. It's not nearly as intimate. Guys beg their wives for blowjobs because they feel amazing, simple as that. The ultimate is still sex, whether it is between two people of different genders or the same. And I'm not saying oral can't be incredibly intimate, but in general sex is more mentally and emotionally intense.
> 
> All it really comes down to is how you define sex. Your definition of sex is a sexual act that can cause disease or be seen as impure. My definition of sex is a sexual act that is the ultimate physical, emotional, and sensual connection.


You can also have a quickie in the car. I do see where you're coming from though.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

srschirm said:


> You can also have a quickie in the car. I do see where you're coming from though.


I know, not the best example. But yeh.


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## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

Nessy said:


> You dont know that untill you're dead  So dont give up hope


I'm dead


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## AustinAnxiety (Jun 21, 2012)

Shauna The Dead said:


> I'm dead


Want me to call on the demons of the underworld to give you life again? I have the tendency to do that sometimes for the right people : p


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> Lesbian sex is sex because it involves the whole body, two people being one in a passionate, sensual experience. And it sure can involve penetration. But giving someone oral sex in a car, for example, is not sex. It's just oral. It's a quickie. It's not nearly as intimate. Guys beg their wives for blowjobs because they feel amazing, simple as that. The ultimate is still sex, whether it is between two people of different genders or the same. And I'm not saying oral can't be incredibly intimate, but in general sex is more mentally and emotionally intense.
> 
> All it really comes down to is how you define sex. Your definition of sex is a sexual act that can cause disease or be seen as impure. My definition of sex is a sexual act that is the ultimate physical, emotional, and sensual connection.


How does lesbian sex involve penetration? You mean fingers? Or do you mean what I think I mean? (an inanimate object that you can strap-on to yourself).

There were times where I haven't rose to the occassion (I've got erectile dysfunction) where I have serviced my then-gf and she serviced me in a way that I'd consider a whole body experience. Definitely wasn't a quickie. I don't believe in the penile-vaginal centric definition of sex. You can have sex and make love without that type of penetration. This is coming from the perspective of a guy who has a history of equipment failure (sometimes I can't even get it up. Sometimes I can but then I lose it mid-coitus). So maybe I have a different take on it. I have sought help for the issue. And my doctor isn't taking it seriously. Young men who have a legitimate problem down there aren't taken seriously and I think it's an insult when society says that making love to your girlfriend through other means is not real sex. I have actually self-medicated on my own (ordering generic Cialis from an online pharmacy without prescription) and I find that it helps. My testosterone levels are abnormally low for my age group and the only advice my doctor gave me is to take another testosterone test and to set myself "in the mood" for sex with the right music and right atmosphere or whatever.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> How does lesbian sex involve penetration? You mean fingers? Or do you mean what I think I mean? (an inanimate object that you can strap-on to yourself).
> 
> There were times where I haven't rose to the occassion (I've got erectile dysfunction) where I have serviced my then-gf and she serviced me in a way that I'd consider a whole body experience. Definitely wasn't a quickie. I don't believe in the penile-vaginal centric definition of sex. You can have sex and make love without that type of penetration. This is coming from the perspective of a guy who has a history of equipment failure (sometimes I can't even get it up. Sometimes I can but then I lose it mid-coitus). So maybe I have a different take on it. I have sought help for the issue. And my doctor isn't taking it seriously. Young men who have a legitimate problem down there aren't taken seriously and I think it's an insult when society says that making love to your girlfriend through other means is not real sex. I have actually self-medicated on my own (ordering generic Cialis from an online pharmacy without prescription) and I find that it helps. My testosterone levels are abnormally low for my age group and the only advice my doctor gave me is to take another testosterone test and to set myself "in the mood" for sex with the right music and right atmosphere or whatever.


There's nothing "fake" about what you were doing, but I would still insist that over time a straight girl would not be satisfied without having that full-blown intercourse. They would need to extra level of "making love". But whatever, who really cares anyway?

I feel for you, man. When I first started having sex I couldn't get it up at all at first..for a while. My nerves would get to me and the anticipation of NOT being able to get it up the next time turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. It wasn't until I became more confident in general that I was able to better lay it down in the bedroom. It wasn't until half-way through my second relationship that I was able to finally be consistently erect without any issues. And I have a ridiculously high sex drive, so I can imagine how much harder it would be for you. I do feel though that working on your other issues will resolve this one over time.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> There's nothing "fake" about what you were doing, but I would still insist that over time a straight girl would not be satisfied without having that full-blown intercourse. They would need to extra level of "making love". But whatever, who really cares anyway?


Yeah I know what you mean. The girls in the past have said "it's ok, don't worry about it" or they'll be self-conscious about it "is it me? I don't turn you on?" But then when things go sour, that's like the first thing they bring up in a heated exchange. They go below the belt.



> I feel for you, man. When I first started having sex I couldn't get it up at all at first..for a while. My nerves would get to me and the anticipation of NOT being able to get it up the next time turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. It wasn't until I became more confident in general that I was able to better lay it down in the bedroom. It wasn't until half-way through my second relationship that I was able to finally be consistently erect without any issues. And I have a ridiculously high sex drive, so I can imagine how much harder it would be for you. I do feel though that working on your other issues will resolve this one over time.


It's a confidence issue for me. But in my situation the psychological is also impacting the physiological I'm afraid.  I'm pretty sure my low testosterone and overall low energy is linked to depression, anxiety, low serotonin levels, low dopamine levels, poor sleep habits, etc. It fluctuates. One time I was completely dead down there. And then after a nap, the girl woke me up and we're kissing then she notices I'm hard and I'm like "I want it" and she's like "this late at night? ok." lol. I guess I was really tired that day and I needed sleep. I have this almost constant fatigue. It sucks. I hate having to wake up 6:30-6:45 AM every morning (except Sunday) to get ready to go to work.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Nessy said:


> Like I wrote earlier I already have. She finds out tomorrow or tuesday if she has to have an oral exam or not.





Nessy said:


> Got into talking with her today and she said she still isnt ready to kiss.. What to do? I've already started to feel that we are just friends :/ The "magic" is gone sort of.
> 
> Tell her that we are too different and that it would be for the best that we stay just friends?


She said she develops feelings slowly. That means she is afraid to fall for someone. You would have to talk about it for sure - but saying "I am going to kiss her at date #4" is a bit unrealistic.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

****Thread Advisory****

Keep this on topic, please. It jumped from the original topic of dating a shy person to full-on sex and it was starting to get graphic.


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> I don't believe in this idea that a girl will put a guy in the "friend zone" if he doesn't make a move. Either she's into you or she isn't. I have tried to get outside of the "friend zone" with a girl recently. And it didn't work. Why? Not because I didn't act quick enough. She just might not find me attractive or she just might not be into me or feel little to no chemistry in that way.


 OK - I started a separate thread about that. Let's see what people think.


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## Xtraneous (Oct 18, 2011)

Pretty much.


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## Farideh (Nov 13, 2011)

What !? Shut up! Don't say that! haha I'm just kidding. We all deserve love bro.


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## Varax (Jun 22, 2012)

That’s how I feel - that I’m not supposed to have a girlfriend. It’s like I’ve been labeled as a biological failure that needs to be eliminated from the gene pool.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Varax said:


> That's how I feel - that I'm not supposed to have a girlfriend. It's like I've been labeled as a biological failure that needs to be eliminated from the gene pool.


I don't feel this, necessarily, but I do feel that there are so many odds against me, and I'm so happy being alone, that I should just give up on girls.

This isn't me saying that I'm unattractive, or undatable. But everyone seems to have this ideal fantasy of what a relationship will be, and it's hard for guys like me (geeks) to find what we want.


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## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

AustinAnxiety said:


> Want me to call on the demons of the underworld to give you life again? I have the tendency to do that sometimes for the right people : p


Haha sure, why not? :boogie


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Had a fantastic night with the girl yesterday. Started off by making pizzas, then we watched 3 movies and she didnt even seem to be in a rush after that  We cuddled quite a bit on the couch (no kissing though) but it was very sweet, felt like we bonded a bit.

Going to keep seeing her and see how it goes. I do think that she sees me as more then a friend because friends dont generally do what we did yesterday (I would guess, dont have any female friends).

Also about the "friendzone" as someone brought up earlier; my belief is that a girl can be into you, but if you dont read her signals or are too afraid to make a move when you should she wont feel the same anymore. There is a window of opportunity and when it closes it stays closed. The sexual tension and mystery is gone and you done goofed.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

Kir11 its great that you make your own happiness!  To get someone to be with, being happy alone and not needing anyone to feel happy is the first step. It will make you look a lot more attractive to the opposite (or same) gender.

I dont doubt you too will find someone, only thing you might have to do is change your attitude so you dont seem cold/uninviting because then men (or women) might not want to come up and talk to you.


Just became somewhat harder the situation I'm in right now, because now two more women seem to be interested in getting to know me better. But I'm scared that if I go out with one or both of them I will like them, things will escalate faster then with the girl I'm seeing, and I'll have to stop seeing the girl I'm dating currently if things should work out with one of them. (things of course might not too, I dont think every date will lead to a relationship)

So what to do, stick with the girl I'm dating (who I have a great time with but still havent kissed after 5 dates and who might need a lot more time too before that happens and probably even longer before sex) or date other women who might be interested and open to being physical and establishing a relationship much faster if things should work out?

I really like the girl I'm dating and even though its going very slow I feel like we are progressing and I'm starting to fall for her a bit. Only sucky thing is if it will take half a year just for her to be able to kiss :/


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## Goadmeandiwillkillyou (Jun 24, 2012)

You are focusing way too much on sex. I suppose this is natural for men though.
It's interesting that you see it becoming an official relationship once the intimacy starts. 

You should stay away from PUA nonsense. It is tailored to picking up bar ****s and has an enormous current of misogyny running through it.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

For me, sex, kissing, intimacy is whats the difference between friends and being a couple. I can easily wait with sex for a good while, but I need some kissing after a bit of time.

Things are going rather good between us now btw!  Still havent kissed but I think its close because we have been sending quite a few dirty texts ^^


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Nessy said:


> Kir11 its great that you make your own happiness!  To get someone to be with, being happy alone and not needing anyone to feel happy is the first step. It will make you look a lot more attractive to the opposite (or same) gender.
> 
> I dont doubt you too will find someone, only thing you might have to do is change your attitude so you dont seem cold/uninviting because then men (or women) might not want to come up and talk to you.
> 
> ...


Listen - I can appreciate that you are looking for a relationship. But honestly, how do you know who the perfect girl for you is going to be unless you play the field and see what you really like/don't like? GO DATE THOSE GIRLS! Have some fun. You're 21 for christ's sake. I'm 25 and having a blast dating multiple girls, and have almost no interest in a relationship unless I find that perfect girl. In the meantime, dating is fun and allows me the free time to continue focusing on myself and my career and all that.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Dude half a year for a kiss? WTF?! Don't commit!


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Lol I'll be damned if I am waiting 6 months for a kiss.


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## Nessy (Mar 3, 2011)

It isnt actually 6 months, was being dramatic  We are going to practice some kissing today actually


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