# So what is 'irrational' and what is not?



## Lachlan (Jul 3, 2008)

A large part of the theory of anxiety treatment seems to be based on this idea of 'irrational' thoughts. So what does this word actually mean? Where and how do we draw the line between what is rational, and what is not. 

for example. I am sitting in a room full of people all eating lunch, everyone, including myself is at a table of about 8 or so people. there are 10-15 tables in the room. So - is it irrational to think that 'everyone' will notice me?

How about to that same situation, I add anther table, and move to sit at that table, alone. The only person at a table alone. Now is it an 'irrational' thought to think that 'everyone is looking at me' how about 'everyone will notice me' ? how about 'everyone will think I have no friends here'? how about 'everyone will think I am a loser'

this seems to be a crucial part of the theory. This idea that 'our' (us with SA) views are not rational. But does this mean they are not close to what in reality is happening??


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## wxolue (Nov 26, 2008)

Thats just the thing. In the second situation, assuming that everyone will automatically judge you negatively IS irrational. Its easy for someone to tell you a thought is irrational, but its more important for you to believe its irrational. Getting to this point is a long way off.

To get there, its important to understand why the thought is irrational. Here you have fallen into a few thinking traps (there are a bunch, but here are a few I identified).

Mind Reading: You assume what the other people are thinking, despite not being able to read minds.

Emotional Reasoning: Because you feel anxious and alone, you immediately assume people think you're a loner and awkward.

Next you would be asked to dispute some of your irrational thoughts. Answer some questions like:

Am I 100% sure everyone assumes I'm a loser?
-(Did you ask them? Did every person say yes?)

What are some alternative thoughts they could be thinking?
-Perhaps they see you as someone just trying to enjoy a quiet lunch. Maybe they have better things to do during their lunch than to look at everyone else in the lunch room and judge them. They might think you're friends are retaking a test, or just aren't able to make it to lunch.

Finally we'll develop some more rational responses to our thoughts:

Would I immediately assume a person eating alone is a loser and a loner?
Does eating lunch alone automatically equate to having no friends in all aspects of life (since when does a 25 minute lunch = all the time?).



I'm not some therapist trying to tell you about your anxiety, when I've only read about it in a book. I've been there. I've been the kid who NEVER stops to talk to anyone in the hallway. I've been the kid who spends every lunch in the library. I've been the kid who drew back from every person's attempt to make friends with me. I've thought about situation #2 multiple times, and I can tell you, right now, that it all comes from your anxiety. 10 sessions into CBT and I can sit here right now and tell you definitively that people are NOT thinking those things. Even if you think this whole post is full of bull****, do yourself a favor, and try to forget what you think you know about what people think, how you look, who you are...EVERYTHING. You don't know what rational is. Yet. 

Changing your automatic thoughts starts with the conscious mind. Repeat one of the rational responses to yourself or in your head no matter how incorrect it sounds. Do your best to block out the irrational thought. I'm not asking you to believe the new thought, just to flood your brain with it so much, you don't have room to think of an alternative. Do this process for various thoughts that come up for a couple months, and you'll start to believe them.


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## fredbloggs02 (Dec 14, 2009)

I thought I might add another dimension to this interesting discussion. How can anyone reach consensus on the rational* simply by their own experience? We are all different, we all see the world differently. Do we all see the same world is another question? The nature of belief and experience and how far they extend in creating literally what we see as individuals has taken quite disturbing apexs' recently. By that token, who's to say who knows the best of what is real and what isn't? 

It is said we create images before our very eyes that do not exist because that is what we expect to see, I myself have witnessed this, it was a bit disturbing. This is I suppose the invisible reason we presume a lot of us are here. Our beliefs and what we expect to see filling in the gaps in what we closed our eyes to view or maybe the confusion is in that..... If a belief can form our reality why should any of us believe a therapist to know the correct context to judge reality? Belief is mastered by no man alone. Our faith rests in the hands of a therapist who will predict what each and every one of us will see when we choose to open our eyes and refrain from relying on gut instinct.. or maybe.. I've always wondered why so many therapies work for some and fail for others for misunderstandings. I've always wondered why society isolates people, especially ones who see things that are proposed to be mythical. If everyone saw as they saw there would be no problem to me but science dictates there is a generally accepted reality and that of a minority and that science applies to all of us despite it's black holes it's knowledge demonstrates in these instances gentlemen. So I ask you how far do you feel science goes to explain this confusing situation we find ourselves in? Just what is the harm in people who believe they see a different reality from the one we see? We are lead to believe that these people come with excess baggage and are also disturbed, this isn't the case for I knew one such person, diagnosed Schizophrenic. He was a strong, caring man who loved his family with a passion. There was nothing he wouldn't do for them or me but he was diagnosed with Schizophrenia and that isolated him to a number of the more sheepish members of the family, save me. Take that as you will, maybe I am also clinically ill but take me at my word when I tell you there was nothing viscerally different about him aside from the fact he always seemed to be listening to something. Take that as you will but he was like me in every respect apart from this, that he was listening to something I couldn't hear. You don't have to believe me but I knew him... He heard something that noone else did, a voice, although he tried to conceal it. I believe he did this for good reason although the actions he expressed outlined I believe what he heard. So I ask you this.... How far does our belief in something create a Scientifically inplausible concept to exist existent?


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## wxolue (Nov 26, 2008)

Sounds like constructivism to me. Why do we put a value on having friends? Why do we equate green paper to wealth? Why is life without a home or house considered unwanted? Why is being wet uncomfortable? Why are some clothes (or clothes at all) considered attractive or not attractive? All of our perceptions, assumptions, and observations are seen through the lens of our mind. Green paper isn't innately worth anything. It isn't even green. It's just a color society (in the form of language) has equated to green. Our minds adopted that societal norm, and now associate the color green with the word green.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but essentially, the 'rational' thoughts our therapist tells us to think aren't any more rational than our own thoughts. The only difference is, our thoughts, in the society we live in, give us anxiety. The therapist's 'rational' thoughts don't, despite the fact that they may be more f-ed up than our own. In a parallel universe where ugliness, loneliness, and being a loser is valued, perhaps we would not have anxiety.

Although even in that case, I don't believe anxiety in general would be gone. People in completely different societies, even in completely different periods of time, have experienced anxiety, despite having different societal norms than us. Negative is a better word to use than rational. Negative doesn't necessarily mean bad, it just means opposite of what would be compatible with the societal norms we live in, and believe in.

Why should we change our anxiety thoughts, and not the beliefs society has endowed us with? Why should I believe I'm not ugly instead of believing that ugliness is a good thing? Because anxiety, insofar as it is associated with being a mental illness, does not describe a different perspective of the perception that is most common (societal norms) specifically (which just happens to be the opposite), but a distinct opposite perception from WHATEVER the societal norms are. In other words, the mind lens of someone with anxiety isn't different from someone 'normal' AND COINCIDENTALLY incompatible with their lens. The mind lens of someone with SA is always and exclusively incompatible and opposite of someone with a 'normal' mind lens.

Everyone's thoughts are irrational depending on what perspective you look at it. In our present society, our thoughts cause anxiety, while a therapist's suggested thoughts don't. Irrational and rational as the words pertain to thoughts should therefore be thought of as ways to describe how likely the thoughts are to cause anxiety (further, how rational or irrational they are in the present set of accepted rules [societal norms])

It's like claiming that pi is a rational number. In the established rules of mathematics that are most common, pi is an irrational number. Sure you could create your own rules of mathematics in order to accommodate your belief in pi being rational, but then you would be unable to operate in society (with other people that operate within the normal rules of mathematics). Also, changing your belief in the fundamental rules in which you have operated in since the day you were born is harder than simply teaching yourself to believe that pi is in fact irrational.

I compel you to read Wittgenstein, a famous german philosopher.


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## Mystic76 (Oct 11, 2010)

wxolue said:


> Sounds like constructivism to me. Why do we put a value on having friends? Why do we equate green paper to wealth? Why is life without a home or house considered unwanted? Why is being wet uncomfortable? Why are some clothes (or clothes at all) considered attractive or not attractive? All of our perceptions, assumptions, and observations are seen through the lens of our mind. Green paper isn't innately worth anything. It isn't even green. It's just a color society (in the form of language) has equated to green. Our minds adopted that societal norm, and now associate the color green with the word green.
> 
> I don't know where I'm going with this, but essentially, the 'rational' thoughts our therapist tells us to think aren't any more rational than our own thoughts. The only difference is, our thoughts, in the society we live in, give us anxiety. The therapist's 'rational' thoughts don't, despite the fact that they may be more f-ed up than our own. In a parallel universe where ugliness, loneliness, and being a loser is valued, perhaps we would not have anxiety.
> 
> ...


I agree. You are an awesome intellect. YAY for taking the positive out of the negative. :clap


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## broseph (Jan 18, 2010)

Great thread! I'm glad I read this.


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