# What's the root cause of "gender wars"?



## always starting over (Mar 15, 2013)

Everybody likes to complain about it, but nobody wants to talk about why it's a problem in the first place. Especially why it seems to have gotten worse in the past decade.

Is it because men and women are inherently different, so it's inevitable?
Is is media/society/culture/brainwashing/propaganda?
Is it feminism?
Is it technology?
Is it expected gender roles?
Is it sexual frustration?


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## To22 (Apr 6, 2012)

Bitterness and frustration.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

Theologic said:


> Bitterness and frustration.


[2]


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Stereotyping and generalizations.


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## Rich19 (Aug 11, 2012)

It's the girls fault, they started it:b


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## always starting over (Mar 15, 2013)

Do you guys think the bitterness and frustration is more widespread due to another factor? Or is it just as bad as it's always been? (and we just know about it more because of the internet)

Same with stereotyping


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## I Punt Puppies (May 6, 2013)

Virgins crying a river on how they can't get sex

//thread


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## always starting over (Mar 15, 2013)

I Punt Puppies said:


> Virgins crying a river on how they can't get sex
> 
> //thread


I'm not a virgin but I still have to moderate my frustration so I don't flip out.


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## Brasilia (Aug 23, 2012)

Not knowing the difference between sex and gender.


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## ForBrighterDays (Mar 2, 2013)

One side thinking they have it worse than the other and treating mental illness like it's a competition.


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## always starting over (Mar 15, 2013)

Illusions said:


> One side thinking they have it worse than the other and treating mental illness like it's a competition.


I'm assuming the "one side" = men here?


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## ForBrighterDays (Mar 2, 2013)

always starting over said:


> I'm assuming the "one side" = men here?


I meant both genders.


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## always starting over (Mar 15, 2013)

Illusions said:


> I meant both genders.


Gotcha


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## ForBrighterDays (Mar 2, 2013)

I get how easy it is to become bitter about your plight. But when you're on here every day ignoring good advice, purposefully starting trouble and hurting other people on a _support_ forum, it's probably time to take a good, hard look at yourself.


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## To22 (Apr 6, 2012)

always starting over said:


> Do you guys think the bitterness and frustration is more widespread due to another factor? Or is it just as bad as it's always been? (and we just know about it more because of the internet)
> 
> Same with stereotyping


Honestly, I think it's probably less of an issue now because of the internet. Without such easy access to people across the world we would often times be limited to face to face impressions. With that being said, I think it'd be harder to find support against stereotypes and generalizations. With the internet, you see personalities that contradict the popular idea frequently. Despite that, some are still emotionally compelled to fall victim to confirmation bias and others don't want to know the truth.


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## kiirby (Oct 8, 2010)

Idiocy.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

Buying into dogma a bit too much ? I see hardcore Feminists and some MRA's taking things a bit too seriously on the internet from time to time - it's become a religion to them almost and you don't disagree with someone's faith (think how many 'Holy wars' there have been over the centuries lol).


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## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

buying into sexist stereotypes and bitterness


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## always starting over (Mar 15, 2013)

Paper Samurai said:


> Buying into dogma a bit too much ? I see hardcore Feminists and some MRA's taking things a bit too seriously on the internet from time to time - it's become a religion to them almost and you don't disagree with someone's faith (think how many 'Holy wars' there have been over the centuries lol).


I used to date a self-described "radical feminist". It's funny that the ideology she would rant about in public was the opposite of what she wanted in bed.


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## Unluckyiguess (Apr 3, 2013)

It's because men love women more than women love men. You would be bitter too if on top of not getting what you want most peoples advice is to change into something your not.


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## always starting over (Mar 15, 2013)

Unluckyiguess said:


> It's because men love women more than women love men. You would be bitter too if on top of not getting what you want most peoples advice is to change into something your not.


Agreed


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

Unluckyiguess said:


> It's because men love women more than women love men. You would be bitter too if on top of not getting what you want most peoples advice is to change into something your not.


Reeeeeaaalllly?

:blank


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## Unluckyiguess (Apr 3, 2013)

diamondheart89 said:


> Reeeeeaaalllly?
> 
> :blank


In general and in the USA where im from big yes.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

Unluckyiguess said:


> In general and in the USA where im from big yes.


I think it's just your personal experience. It's not mine.


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## Cam1 (Dec 4, 2011)

Frustration, narrow-mindedness, and over reactions.


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## fingertips (Jan 11, 2009)

fluoridated tap water


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## RelinquishedHell (Apr 10, 2012)

Guys feeling frustrated because they aren't getting any. Come on now, the answer is obvious.


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## Unluckyiguess (Apr 3, 2013)

diamondheart89 said:


> I think it's just your personal experience. It's not mine.


Of course not, you're probably beating guys away with a stick.


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## Charmander (Sep 5, 2012)

It's easier for them to blame the other gender.
And their lack of brain cells.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Rich19 said:


> It's the girls fault, they started it:b


 If only Eve hadn't tempted Adam with that apple.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

Unluckyiguess said:


> Of course not, you're probably beating guys away with a stick.


-_-

Sigh.


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## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

penis envy


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## whatyoumustthink (Apr 25, 2012)

Negative past experiences and stereotypical assumptions (can originate from a variety of places - feminist theories, the media's portrayals of love and sex, etc.)



fingertips said:


> fluoridated tap water


And that.


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

Thank you to the OP for creating a thread that has attracted even more user names I can add to my ignore list.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

unhappy with their life >>> search for a reason why >>> get angry >>> get paranoid >>> find a scapegoat >>> make generalizations about your chosen scapegoat on forums.


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## CrimsonTrigger (Jun 28, 2011)

I can't speak for everybody, but generally, I believe it has to with an inherent belief that one gender is superior or inferior to the other. You don't necessarily have to believe that you are superior to the other to be a sexist, at least from what I've seen here. Where do these beliefs come from? Socialization and bad personal experiences. These just feed your insecurities until they take over your thinking.

You know how so many men here claim that it's much easier for women to get dates and sex? Did any of them ever stop to think that while it's easier for them to gets dates, it's still harder for them to find quality dates? They are going to have problems unless they are desperate.

Gender wars happen because some people can't even begin to consider potential alternatives to their line of thinking, which leads to them getting frustrated because the opposite sex won't give them attention, so they'll go online and b***h about it. And this isn't just men either. I have seen women do this too, even one idiotically claiming that she couldn't be sexist because she was a woman.


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## visualkeirockstar (Aug 5, 2012)

Jealousy?


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## I Punt Puppies (May 6, 2013)

VanGogh said:


> Thank you to the OP for creating a thread that has attracted even more user names I can add to my ignore list.


And you call other people oversensitive lol.


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## Rixy (Oct 4, 2009)

Because it's easy to point at something and blame it as the source of their problems.


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

Gender roles allow women to be passive in matters of dating, but if men are passive they will miss all opportunities. Gender roles expect men to be the initiator and if a man does not take such a step then not only does he miss out but he is often scorned for not taking action.

Unrelated to romance, decades ago women challenged equality in the workplace and had there been Internet forums back then a lot of "gender wars" would have been over that topic, with men trying to maintain status quo while women made noise about genuine unfairness based on society's established gender roles.

Now that there is equality in the workplace, men are complaining about inequality in romance and the claims of inequality (though in a different area of life) are reversed. But it is disregarded as "gender wars", usually scorning any man for daring to bring up a perceived inequality.


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

CrimsonTrigger said:


> You know how so many men here claim that it's much easier for women to get dates and sex? Did any of them ever stop to think that while it's easier for them to gets dates, it's still harder for them to find quality dates? They are going to have problems unless they are desperate.


What would those problems be, exactly? That the men they choose from the sea of options often end up being wankers or abusers they have to toss aside and wait for the next wave of offers to choose from?

Men pick, women choose. If you want to claim that being in the position of being able to choose from among many options is somehow worse than being in the position of having to face constant rejection then you are downplaying the effort and emotional risk being taken by one sex while glorifying the poor selection skills of the other sex.

Clearly when the guys here do complain, they are not complaining about the female sex. They are complaining about the frustration they feel at the way society has structured gender roles and the advantage given to women in the romantic arena versus the disadvantage men have to face. To the typical man, this may not be too great of a burden or frustration but to men who have to deal with deficiencies as the same society degrades them about it becomes an ongoing torture.


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

always starting over said:


> I used to date a self-described "radical feminist". *It's funny that the ideology she would rant about in public was the opposite of what she wanted in bed.*


Heh, well there is the belief in some circles that the way Feminists want men to act ironically makes them completely unattractive to both themselves and other women.

Based on your own experience, I would say there is an element of truth to the idea. :b


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## Elad (Dec 6, 2009)

we both make stupid assumptions about the opposite gender, and people on this website like to blame them for why they are alone. add into it people here are a little high strung/hypersensitive and you get "gender wars".

basically a lot of bitterness.


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## Werebear (May 6, 2013)

I'm a girl and I grew up very close to my brother. Our parents didn't raise us to enforce gender stereotypes, As such both of us are very confused by people who seem mystified by the opposite gender.

In my opinion, it's this "othering" and separation of men and women that makes me people not realise how similar the genders really are? From a very young age boys and girls are cordoned off from each other and thought an "us and them" type mentality. I didn't fit in to either category as a kid so I got a clear view from the outside of just how bizarre this divide was. 

When a group of people is held in such a regard as being alien, others will believe it! For a long time women were seen as almost sub-human. Things have gotten a lot better in recent decades but there are still strange boundaries between us that have yet to be broken down!


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## Paper Samurai (Oct 1, 2009)

komorikun said:


> unhappy with their life >>> search for a reason why >>> get angry >>> get paranoid >>> find a scapegoat >>> make generalizations about your chosen scapegoat on forums.





Elad said:


> we both make stupid assumptions about the opposite gender, and people on this website like to blame them for why they are alone. add into it people here are a little high strung/hypersensitive and you get "gender wars".
> 
> basically a lot of bitterness.


Kinda agree with you both, it's a mixture of looking for something else to blame (human nature) and being high strung. The old moderation team use to be able to handle this situation really well, but now they are simply not online enough to break up certain types of threads before they get a bit ugly.

I also find myself trying to moderate my own actions a bit more - I use to reply to most if not all responses on here even on controversial topics - now I try and assess if the person I will potentially reply to would be able to handle criticism/difference of opinion ! I mean one guy blew up on me recently for telling a joke :b (I was trying to make light of a situation where he and another guy was arguing in a thread)


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## Spungo (Jul 30, 2012)

always starting over said:


> Is is media/society/culture/brainwashing/propaganda?


That's definitely a huge part of it. Pushing the idea of being normal and using common sense is not very entertaining, so stuff on TV tends to support stereotypes or weird ideas. Example: women who have a normal, healthy sex drive are called ****s on TV. Sleep with a really great guy on a first date? ****. Have a friend with benefits? ****. Do you have sexual fantasies? ****. 
Some other super bad stuff learned from TV:
-it's ok for men to be slobs because that's just the way men are
-it's ok for women to be useless at fixing things
-a man who cares for children is obviously a pedophile
-a stay at home dad is probably gay

Some people support gender stereotypes because they're too lazy and stupid to overcome the stereotype. I could yell at my gf and get her to do the laundry, but I do it myself because I did the 10 minutes worth of google searching to understand how laundry works. I understand what the little laundry symbols mean, the importance of wash temperature, rinse temperature, and different drying methods. Men who are completely retarded would rather not learn how laundry works and just get someone else to do it. Same deal with women and repairing things. They can either learn how to use a circular saw or they be pathetic and just get someone else to do it. "I can't use a saw because I'm just a girl."

The division of roles leads to gender wars. You take a bunch of men who can't piss in a toilet to save their lives and a bunch of women who can't use basic tools, and then argue which group is more retarded.


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## always starting over (Mar 15, 2013)

VanGogh said:


> What would those problems be, exactly? That the men they choose from the sea of options often end up being wankers or abusers they have to toss aside and wait for the next wave of offers to choose from?
> 
> Men pick, women choose. If you want to claim that being in the position of being able to choose from among many options is somehow worse than being in the position of having to face constant rejection then you are downplaying the effort and emotional risk being taken by one sex while glorifying the poor selection skills of the other sex.
> 
> Clearly when the guys here do complain, they are not complaining about the female sex. They are complaining about the frustration they feel at the way society has structured gender roles and the advantage given to women in the romantic arena versus the disadvantage men have to face. To the typical man, this may not be too great of a burden or frustration but to men who have to deal with deficiencies as the same society degrades them about it becomes an ongoing torture.


I don't see anything at all that's controversial about this. It's the way it is! Thanks for clarifying it for the haters!


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

I must go my patriarchy needs me.


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## GoingBaldSucks (Mar 16, 2013)

I think everyone have their real life experience.

They just say what they saw. I saw how powerful women are in dating, how feminism make them even more powerful, how men are treated as sub-species and only 8+ guys get any action.

I don't hate women, but when I post in those "gender wars" threads it's just my experience. It doesn't mean all women are that way.

I also don't view it as wars. I view it as a debate of experiences.


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## The Sleeping Dragon (Sep 29, 2011)

frustration


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## brohuey (Sep 30, 2012)

Unluckyiguess said:


> It's because men love women more than women love men. You would be bitter too if on top of not getting what you want most peoples advice is to change into something your not.


Truth. Also from what I've seen and heard

Feminism established in the minds of women that the workers and providers for the family (Men) are no longer needed.


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## SilentWitness (Dec 27, 2009)

justlistening said:


> Gender war is one of those things that only seem to be an issue here. I have no idea how it is at other places online, *but it's definitely not something that seems to exist among people offline.*


it's safer on the internet, lol. :lol


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

Lack of empathy. And stupidity.


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

justlistening said:


> Gender war is one of those things that only seem to be an issue here. I have no idea how it is at other places online, but it's definitely not something that seems to exist among people offline.


It doesn't exist other places online, it's only an anomaly I've seen here because every time a man here wants to vent about it, threads are shut down and warnings get sent all around before anyone gets to the meat of it which might actually lead to advice.

I don't get it, SA stands for "Social Anxiety" as in SOCIAL and what is more social for human beings than mating and pair bonding? Also, there is no place here to discuss sex yet it is the primary human drive after food & shelter, even before love.

Just create a men-only & women-only sections and build a module for the site that keeps people who've indicated a sex in their profile from posting into the wrong place.


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## I Punt Puppies (May 6, 2013)

VanGogh said:


> It doesn't exist other places online, it's only an anomaly I've seen here because every time a man here wants to vent about it, threads are shut down and warnings get sent all around before anyone gets to the meat of it which might actually lead to advice.
> 
> I don't get it, SA stands for "Social Anxiety" as in SOCIAL and what is more social for human beings than mating and pair bonding? Also, there is no place here to discuss sex yet it is the primary human drive after food & shelter, even before love.
> 
> Just create a men-only & women-only sections and build a module for the site that keeps people who've indicated a sex in their profile from posting into the wrong place.


Or you can quiet screaming bloody murder because "girls don't like you".

It's your choice.


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## Dark Shines (Feb 11, 2013)

Spiteful, narcissistic, immaturity.

It can't be frustration, because I'm just as frustrated as the next man, yet I don't seek to bring relief to my afflictions by going online and randomly bullying women I've never met before.


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## GoingBaldSucks (Mar 16, 2013)

VanGogh said:


> Clearly when the guys here do complain, they are not complaining about the female sex. They are complaining about the frustration they feel at the way society has structured gender roles and the advantage given to women in the romantic arena versus the disadvantage men have to face. To the typical man, this may not be too great of a burden or frustration but to men who have to deal with deficiencies as the same society degrades them about it becomes an ongoing torture.


This.

Men must be the ones to approach and get rejected.

Basically any average woman can choose the man they want if they just wait enough. I've seen average girls that just wait for male models.

It's true some male models will pump and dump, but compared to the average guy who stays virgin up until 30 years old or more, that's actually heaven.

It's very hard to not recognize women's power when women enter for free at night clubs, men pay them beers, and they just stand up there and wait for the prince charming. And if no prince charming was found they go home with their egos pumped.

Men on the other hand go home with their egos completely crushed from the rejections or for not having courage to approach anyone.

If I were to choose being born an average woman or a male model I'd choose the average woman no doubts. Their power is over 9000 literally.


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## lolwhyme (Apr 26, 2013)

VanGogh said:


> It doesn't exist other places online, it's only an anomaly I've seen here because every time a man here wants to vent about it, threads are shut down and warnings get sent all around before anyone gets to the meat of it which might actually lead to advice.
> 
> I don't get it, SA stands for "Social Anxiety" as in SOCIAL and what is more social for human beings than mating and pair bonding? Also, there is no place here to discuss sex yet it is the primary human drive after food & shelter, even before love.
> 
> Just create a men-only & women-only sections and build a module for the site that keeps people who've indicated a sex in their profile from posting into the wrong place.


Please. Guys like you are exactly what's wrong with this site. Bching and moaning about your dating life more than you talk about SA. This is a mental health forum, not one for finding a place to stick you're penis.

And apparently you're only seeing the threads you want to see, because I saw ones where the OP said they blantly hated women and even a thread where male users were bashing a female user for getting raped.

If you don't see it, than it's no wonder you don't have dating success. It's because you have no empathy, zero. And most women can tell if a guys only intent to get his dick wet.

Why not try this thing called "self-accountability" on for size instead of blaming all your issues on females because you can't get sex like a 4 year old. The problem is more than likely you.

//rant.


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

GoingBaldSucks said:


> Men must be the ones to approach and get rejected.


It's not JUST that, although based on the replies I get to my own take on things when these topics come up it would seem that's how women might perceive the complaints.

Both sexes are superficial, although we are told often by society, media, friends, family, acquaintances, and "experts" that looks don't matter much to women - that it's a man's character that matters. True, but only AFTER he is judged on looks first.

That is the same thing for men, we react initially to looks and then look at what is behind those looks.

The difference, and where it bothers a lot of men, is that looks is basically where our superficiality ends. But what we see often from women is that looks aren't enough. A guy must also be confident, successful, tall, fit, outgoing, dress well, etc etc.

Yes yes there is the anomaly of women going for a guy who is poor or low on the social ladder or no job, but typically only if he has some extreme quality elsewhere that is also usually superficial.

The thing about society expecting the man to initiate, that can also be a good thing for many men because it's supposed to level the playing field a bit. What it's supposed to do (and in the past before extreme feminism what it did do) was allow a man who may not have very much in the way of superficial traits to still have a chance. Approaching and displaying a good character would be so much more important.

The problem (and where the frustration comes from) is that it's now meaningless. If you have a room of 10 men and 50 women, the 2 best looking men will get all the initial attention from women without doing anything of their own to get it, and the rest will only succeed if they approach AND have superficial traits, leaving the bottom few being constantly rejected because even though the supply is far smaller than the demand the women will reject with the hopes the better (or best) men (in the superficial sense) will eventually approach them. Even if those bottom few have better character. So in the room you have the top few men having their way with most of the women while the bottom few have no access, even when there is a huge supply. Most of the women are still satisfied because they get a shot at all the "best" men (even though they don't get to keep them) while most of the men (and especially the bottom few) will not even get a shot. Some of the average men will succeed with an average woman or occasionally one of the better-looking ones who got tired of waiting for the perfect guy so she "settles". To the guys who happen to not have any superficial positive traits, even if they are good guys with good character, they will experience a life of loneliness.

I'm sure this post will be mocked, scolded or otherwise dismissed but any guy who is in the "low" boat described will know exactly what I'm talking about.


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about when assessing me.

Sex is not a big deal for me. I can find it and I know how to get it because I bypass the system that is stacked against me. Next time you want to blast a member over something, it's best that you actually start from a place of familiarity.

The empathy you say which I am lacking in is the exact thing I have not been able to find in women. The forgiveness of flaws simply does not exist from what I've seen. Whether I go for sex or try to focus on a genuine relationship, I've found that my flaws are not forgiven either way and I end up with nobody - but at least I have sex which may be temporary but it seems better than a life of no human contact at all.

You are completely dismissing the social nature of mating and how important it is. SA may be a "mental illness" (that's kind of a stretch but OK, it's more of a disorder) but MOST people who experience it due to a life full of negative circumstances centered around social things and the most social thing that could possibly exist is the interaction between men and women. If that were not true, this thread and the topic it refers to would not come up in the first place here.

It's like having a discussion topic of "Why do we exist?" and rejecting the notion of someone saying "Well if we didn't, we wouldn't be here to ask that question."



lolwhyme said:


> Please. Guys like you are exactly what's wrong with this site. Bching and moaning about your dating life more than you talk about SA. This is a mental health forum, not one for finding a place to stick you're penis.
> 
> And apparently you're only seeing the threads you want to see, because I saw ones where the OP said they blantly hated women and even a thread where male users were bashing a female user for getting raped.
> 
> ...


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## GoingBaldSucks (Mar 16, 2013)

au Lait said:


> You also seem to have the notion that women never experience rejection or loneliness. That is false.


I don't know. All I see is women constantly updating their facebooks with pictures from parties with their girl friends and I never see them with single status. They jump from one boyfriend to another.

Guys on the other hand are forever alone or get relationships by luck, except for the really handsome ones. They also constantly talk to me about getting hookers to relieve their sex drive.

I never seen women seeking "male hookers".


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

brohuey said:


> Feminism established in the minds of women that the workers and providers for the family (Men) are no longer needed.


Feminism has taught women that they deserve the chance to earn their own wages and work the same jobs as men. This view also alleviates the pressure on men to be the sole bread winner. I'd assume that would be a relief to most men.

That does not mean that women now view men as obsolete. Do you honestly think that relationships are all about money and who makes more of it? What about love and companionship? Feminism is not telling women that men are no longer needed.



VanGogh said:


> The thing about society expecting the man to initiate, that can also be a good thing for many men because it's supposed to level the playing field a bit. What it's supposed to do (and in the past before extreme feminism what it did do) was allow a man who may not have very much in the way of superficial traits to still have a chance. Approaching and displaying a good character would be so much more important.


Thanks to progressive social movements, like feminism, women are allowed to (in many western cultures, at least) date whomever they wish. That actually means that feminism has significantly helped men who might not be "at the top of the social ladder", compared to how marriage was once viewed as more of a contract between families, arranged by the parents who often chose partners for their children based on social and economical reasons. "Good character" was not typically at the top of the list.



VanGogh said:


> Men pick, women choose. If you want to claim that being in the position of being able to choose from among many options is somehow worse than being in the position of having to face constant rejection then you are downplaying the effort and emotional risk being taken by one sex while glorifying the poor selection skills of the other sex.


Picking and choosing are synonyms.

Men have just as much right to choose who they are involved with. No one forces you to date someone you are not interested in, and the same rule applies for women. You choose who you approach, do you not? You can't predict or control how the other person will react, but that is their right to accept or decline. Most people don't get to choose who approaches them, either. If you are approached, do you not have the same right to decline as well?

Despite what some people here seem to believe, being a woman does not always mean being subjected to a constant barrage of male attention. Reading any of the threads on here asking women if they've ever been cold approached should make that obvious.

You also seem to have the notion that women never experience rejection or loneliness. That is false.

But that right there sums up why the "gender wars" occur. Misconceptions and misinformation about what it's like to be the opposite sex. People think they know what it's like to be the opposite gender based on stereotypes and their own preconceived notions. But there's a difference between actually knowing and assuming.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Just pay women equally and everything will be gone.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

GoingBaldSucks said:


> I don't know. All I see is women constantly updating their facebooks with pictures from parties with their girl friends and I never see them with single status. They jump from one boyfriend to another.
> 
> Guys on the other hand are forever alone or get relationships by luck, except for the really handsome ones. They also constantly talk to me about getting hookers to relieve their sex drive.
> 
> I never seen women seeking "male hookers".


Ever heard of a confirmation bias? People tend to see what they expect to see. They cherry pick and glean only the information that proves what they already believe to be true.

There are plenty of single and lonely women in the world. I don't know what else to say that can prove this fact to you. It's like asking someone to prove that the sky is blue. All you have to do is go outside and look. But if you never do, then you'll never see it.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

au Lait said:


> But that right there sums up why the "gender wars" occur. Misconceptions and misinformation about what it's like to be the opposite sex. People think they know what it's like to be the opposite gender based on stereotypes and their own preconceived notions. But there's a difference between actually knowing and assuming.





au Lait said:


> People tend to see what they expect to see. They cherry pick and glean only the information that proves what they already believe to be true.


This.

I don't know what it's like to be a woman.. or an American.. or many other things. I'm not even sure I know what it's like to be "a man", "a European" or even "a Dane". The only thing I am is me, and I'm not even sure what that is all about.
I try not to pretend to know what life is like for others, especially as individuals, though I think we all notice patterns and have them form our general ideas - it's just important to investigate and question what we see.
Similarly, other people don't know what it's like to be me. They don't know what problems I'm going through, how things affect me or what things I long for and why, but some sure seem to think they know all that and are quick to judge and point finger without taking any time to try to understand.
It gets really frustrating.


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## lolwhyme (Apr 26, 2013)

VanGogh said:


> I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about when assessing me.
> 
> Sex is not a big deal for me. I can find it and I know how to get it because I bypass the system that is stacked against me. Next time you want to blast a member over something, it's best that you actually start from a place of familiarity.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm sorry for jumping on you like that, but you're not exactly being little miss sunshine here.

Oh and remember that girl you posted that Nicholson line to in that thread awhile back (that's what made me rant against you), she hasn't posted since. So nice job being a supportive member of the community:blank


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

lolwhyme said:


> I guess I'm sorry for jumping on you like that, but you're not exactly being little miss sunshine here.
> 
> Oh and remember that girl you posted that Nicholson line to in that thread awhile back (that's what made me rant against you), she hasn't posted since. So nice job being a supportive member of the community:blank


Thanks, because that girl agreed with what I said. So it must be another reason she's not posting.

I'm curious if anyone on this forum wants to find help or help others in productive ways? Sometimes you have to say things that aren't easy to digest in order to give advice that is beyond the type of catchphrase motivational one-liners most people are capable of. I don't enjoy the harsh efforts a trainer might make me go though in the gym, but it's meant to make my body better. If I walked in and the trainer just gave me a hug and a Snickers bar, it might feel nice but it's not going to do anything for me except make me fatter and lazier.


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## PickleNose (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm voting for antagonism.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Ignorance and insecurity


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## fanatic203 (Jun 23, 2010)

On this forum, it's anxiety holding people back from getting a date/sex/girlfriend/boyfriend, and people therefore blaming it on the entire opposite gender.



Illusions said:


> One side thinking they have it worse than the other and treating mental illness like it's a competition.


That too.

In the general public (which may also apply to this forum), it's people being unable to understand the experiences of people in different social groupings.


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## regimes (Aug 24, 2011)

> Everybody likes to complain about it, but nobody wants to talk about why it's a problem in the first place. Especially why it seems to have gotten worse in the past decade.


IGNORANCE.
SERIOUSLY THOUGH.

it's amazing that some men are so comfortably unaware of the inequality that women face, and have faced, for THOUSANDS of years that they think "gender wars" has just "gotten worse" in the past decade.

it's not just about work wages either, which is a majority of what i see on this topic.


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## always starting over (Mar 15, 2013)

regimes said:


> IGNORANCE.
> SERIOUSLY THOUGH.
> 
> it's amazing that some men are so comfortably unaware of the inequality that women face, and have faced, for THOUSANDS of years that they think "gender wars" has just "gotten worse" in the past decade.
> ...


When I'm talking about gender wars, I'm mainly referring to the internet gender war phenomenon, not real life inequality of men vs women.


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

always starting over said:


> When I'm talking about gender wars, I'm mainly referring to the internet gender war phenomenon, not real life inequality of men vs women.


Maybe we should talk about that in a separate topic. I would like to know what inequality women believe they are facing currently. It's not relevant any more what inequality women, or anyone for that matter, has had to face in past generations, all that matters is what inequality is being faced now. It must be open to discussion, though, because for example a woman might indicate she doesn't receive as much in wages as a man for the same job (which is really rare these days) but a woman will get greater benefits than a man on the job such as paternity leave, big chunks of which are paid. Anyway, please no discussion of it in this thread, but a new one would be helpful. I want to know as a man how, exactly, women have it more difficult than men in 2013.


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## lolwhyme (Apr 26, 2013)

VanGogh said:


> Thanks, because that girl agreed with what I said. So it must be another reason she's not posting.
> 
> I'm curious if anyone on this forum wants to find help or help others in productive ways? Sometimes you have to say things that aren't easy to digest in order to give advice that is beyond the type of catchphrase motivational one-liners most people are capable of. I don't enjoy the harsh efforts a trainer might make me go though in the gym, but it's meant to make my body better. If I walked in and the trainer just gave me a hug and a Snickers bar, it might feel nice but it's not going to do anything for me except make me fatter and lazier.


Yeah, but that probably wasn't the best for that topic. Now the thread about the woman that won't tell the guy to stop texting her...now that's a different story.

I'm just saying not take out whats going on in your personal dating life and unload it on to people trying to get help here. That's what it looked like you did there, or at least to me.


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## regimes (Aug 24, 2011)

always starting over said:


> When I'm talking about gender wars, I'm mainly referring to the internet gender war phenomenon, not real life inequality of men vs women.


as if they're separate.


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## regimes (Aug 24, 2011)

VanGogh said:


> Maybe we should talk about that in a separate topic. I would like to know what inequality women believe they are facing currently. It's not relevant any more what inequality women, or anyone for that matter, has had to face in past generations, all that matters is what inequality is being faced now. It must be open to discussion, though, because for example a woman might indicate she doesn't receive as much in wages as a man for the same job (which is really rare these days) but a woman will get greater benefits than a man on the job such as paternity leave, big chunks of which are paid. Anyway, please no discussion of it in this thread, but a new one would be helpful. I want to know as a man how, exactly, women have it more difficult than men in 2013.


you have no idea, apparently.
women are still pitted against each other in society. we're taught to hate each other. we are categorized by media and men alike. we're taught to rag on each other if our bodies are different, ie the whole "real women have curves" or "our company doesn't sell plus size clothing" nonsense. we're taught to critically observe other women and note their flaws.
rape culture. holy ****balls, rape culture. 
**** shaming. as women our bodies are sexualized even when they shouldn't be. and then when they are in a content of being sexualized, we're shamed. we can't wear what we want without being sexualized or commented on. shorts, for instance. girl goes out, wears shorts, is raped, people blame *her* for wearing shorts, when the person who raped her is the cause and should be blamed. if we're virgins, we're prude, if we're sexually active, we're ****s. there is no in between. 
speaking of ****s, female-related insults. *****, ****, *****, you fight like a girl. women that dress like men or whose clothing have masculine aspects aren't seen out of the normal at all, but men who have any feminine aspect to their clothing are instantly looked down on, as if being a woman was an insult, or some lesser quality. 
lack of responsibility from men. it comes from the whole, don't get raped gets taught instead of don't rape. boys are raised with more leniency ("boys will be boys") and rape cases get treated like "controversies" as if one scientist was debating one theory against another. 
sexualization. go look at damn near any video game you want. there's bound to be a man in completely normal, practical armor, and a woman in super minisized bikini version of it. go look at american apparel, compare how pictures of men don't get sexualized at all, and nearly all of the women's products are sold with sexualization. we struggle to find females in media that accurately portray a normal, modern woman, (instead of some female stereotype) without all the photoshop and leather.
lack of representation. we're still trying to get a foothold in politics, business, and entertainment. we've never had a female president. how many video games do you know has solely female protagonists, instead of just the female option? (better yet, how many video games have solely female protagonists, that aren't sexualized in some way?) men are the default options. females are the alternative. look at the technology industry. we have minority scholarships to get women in on it, that's how uneven the representation of females in the industry is. 
so we have more benefits than men? pregnancy leave? really? what if we don't have kids? then we just put up with ****tier wages than guys for the same quality and quantity of work?
oh, also, we have countless numbers of men discussing our rights to our bodies every day. our right to birth control, abortion, etc 
the fact that feminism is portrayed (by patriarchal media, nonetheless) as some sort of attack on men and "traditional" families. the fact that feminists are dismissed and thought of as raging butch women who hate men, when that's not true. 
also men (and women!) who think sexism doesn't exist anymore.
let's not forget sexism outside of the states, in some places where it has much more dire consequences.

here's some good articles if you'd like to read them: here, here


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

lolwhyme said:


> Yeah, but that probably wasn't the best for that topic. Now the thread about the woman that won't tell the guy to stop texting her...now that's a different story.
> 
> I'm just saying not take out whats going on in your personal dating life and unload it on to people trying to get help here. That's what it looked like you did there, or at least to me.


Maybe. I just post from my experience, and it happens to be contrary to what women want to hear, probably it's the same for the other guys here who have a different kind of frustration. None of the women here want to hear that men are being rejected for superficial reasons while the kind of men who they claim they are disgusted by are the type who "get" them, because they don't want to believe that they would be the type who would do that. Yet, it seems whenever a woman (or young girl) posts here about her current "dating" experiences, it immediately feels to a lot of men that they are repeating exactly what is frustrating them. So they speak up and then get treated like what they're saying is wrong and irrelevant -- yet it's based on their direct experience and observations. They don't WANT to bash anyone here, it just comes across that way.


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## VanGogh (Jan 13, 2013)

regimes said:


> you have no idea, apparently.


My question was about EQUALITY not what women encounter in life that's different than men. If you want to bring up cultural emphasis on beauty, I can say for sure that the same superficial expectations are pressed upon men. What I am asking about is INEQUALITY. As in "women have it HARDER than men" in some arena as imposed by society that should otherwise be equal.



> women are still pitted against each other in society. we're taught to hate each other. we are categorized by media and men alike. we're taught to rag on each other if our bodies are different, ie the whole "real women have curves" or "our company doesn't sell plus size clothing" nonsense. we're taught to critically observe other women and note their flaws.


Men have to deal with the same thing in a different way. This isn't an example of inequality.



> rape culture. holy ****balls, rape culture.


Not unique to women - men are often treated in the media as being bumbling, lumbering & thoughtless oafs that need a woman to figure things out for them. Turn on any popular sitcom on TV. As much as you see women portrayed as sexual objects, you'll JUST AS MUCH see men portrayed as useless & clueless lumps.

"Rape culture" sounds really important because the word "rape" is stuffed in there & the perception of most of society is to associate rape as something that only happens to women. If it were called what it really is, "sexist culture", then one would have to see both sides. I'm not condoning any form of sexism or pre-judgement, but call it what it is, not what it isn't for the sake of making it one-sided.



> **** shaming. as women our bodies are sexualized even when they shouldn't be. and then when they are in a content of being sexualized, we're shamed. we can't wear what we want without being sexualized or commented on. shorts, for instance. girl goes out, wears shorts, is raped, people blame *her* for wearing shorts, when the person who raped her is the cause and should be blamed. if we're virgins, we're prude, if we're sexually active, we're ****s. there is no in between.


I see women wear what they want to wear regardless of what anyone thinks or says. I also don't see anything common in media or news coverage which blames the victim as much as would be the case if it were as prevalent as claimed. This is also a repeat of the "rape culture" point.



> speaking of ****s, female-related insults. *****, ****, *****, you fight like a girl. women that dress like men or whose clothing have masculine aspects aren't seen out of the normal at all, but men who have any feminine aspect to their clothing are instantly looked down on, as if being a woman was an insult, or some lesser quality.


You think gender-related insults are unique to women? I can think of just as many male terms or male-specific things that can be used in a derogatory way toward anyone. How's that INEQUALITY? & your point about clothes, you're turning something that's actually beneficial for women to sound like it's related to inequality for women rather than men. It's a benefit to women they can wear whatever they want while men are limited or we will be bashed for it. Men can't wear certain colors, certain clothes, makeup, use fakery in displaying their bodies (no heels, push-up bras, makeup, intricate hairdos, stockings, etc etc). How's that inequality on the female side? You can wear what you want, men can't.



> lack of responsibility from men. it comes from the whole, don't get raped gets taught instead of don't rape. boys are raised with more leniency ("boys will be boys" and rape cases get treated like "controversies" as if one scientist was debating one theory against another.


Men are not taught "Don't rob banks. Don't kill people. Don't beat on children. Don't abuse animals." Since when is it an expectation of upbringing to be taught NOT to do bad things? ANY bad things? Upbringing involves positive reinforcement to treat people with kindness & fairness. You can't teach "Hey, listen little Bobby, be kind to girls. Oh, & don't rape them either." What? This claim is ridiculous. As for rape cases being treated like controversies, what are you talking about? I would certainly hope that rape cases aren't based on & concluded solely on a victim's claim & no other evidence. In that light, any alleged crime that finds its way into a court house would be controversial - that's what a trial & jury is for, to look at evidence & facts & make a judgement. That's not controversial, that's justice.



> sexualization. go look at damn near any video game you want. there's bound to be a man in completely normal, practical armor, and a woman in super minisized bikini version of it. go look at american apparel, compare how pictures of men don't get sexualized at all, and nearly all of the women's products are sold with sexualization. we struggle to find females in media that accurately portray a normal, modern woman, (instead of some female stereotype) without all the photoshop and leather.


You're repeating "sexist culture" again. You may not see it, maybe because you refuse to, but men are just as marginalized as to what's expected from them in a sexist way. Just because it doesn't manifest itself in an overtly visual way like sexualized clothing doesn't mean it's a case of INEQUALITY. There are expectations for male characters in video games that are just as totally unrealistic & unfair to men as there might be with the way female characters are dressed. In fact dress is just ONE thing, while the emphasis placed on male characters is an array of multiple sexist slants or negative portrayals.



> lack of representation. we're still trying to get a foothold in politics, business, and entertainment. we've never had a female president. how many video games do you know has solely female protagonists, instead of just the female option? (better yet, how many video games have solely female protagonists, that aren't sexualized in some way?) men are the default options. females are the alternative. look at the technology industry. we have minority scholarships to get women in on it, that's how uneven the representation of females in the industry is.


How is this INEQUALITY? There are plenty of female representatives. Who is stopping women from having the right to be elected into office anywhere? "Trying to get a foothold" is not the same as "lacking the rights embraced by men". You're also repeating, yet again, the "sexist culture" point. Over & over, you are bringing up the same point as if it was many. If you expect to see representation somewhere, it boils down to how many women choose to be involved in something compared to how many men. I could say the same thing about nurses - male nurses are very uncommon. Males in many areas aren't as represented as women. That's not an inequality because there is nothing making it impossible for either gender to do whatever they want. You want a video game with a female lead role model? Great, go make one, who is stopping you? A man wants to be a nurse, great, who is stopping him? This has NOTHING to do with inequality.



> so we have more benefits than men? pregnancy leave? really? what if we don't have kids? then we just put up with ****tier wages than guys for the same quality and quantity of work?


Is there still a claim that women, for the same exact job and experience and skill level, get paid less than male equivalent counterparts? IF that's true, then so far it's the only point here that might make the cut in regard to being an issue of "equality".



> oh, also, we have countless numbers of men discussing our rights to our bodies every day. our right to birth control, abortion, etc


As far as I can tell, any debates along those lines are in the public forum. You're choosing to see it as "men discussing" as if there is a committee comprised solely of men who are domineering over the debate. THAT is pretty sexist against men.



> the fact that feminism is portrayed (by patriarchal media, nonetheless) as some sort of attack on men and "traditional" families. the fact that feminists are dismissed and thought of as raging butch women who hate men, when that's not true.


But what if it was? What if something was portrayed as what it actually is?Does that somehow make the portrayal false? So far in all your points the only item of true gender inequality was wages. Everything else happened to be female-centric issues that males have different (but equivalent) issues to deal with. The main reason society doesn't see that side is because men don't have an equivalent movement to feminism. If you claim those points as inequality then I claim the lack of male representation similar to feminism is an inequality to men. But it's not, because there is nothing stopping men from starting such a movement, except that men would be ostracized by society for attempting it.



> also men (and women!) who think sexism doesn't exist anymore.


Sexism is not inequality because it happens equally but in different ways to men & women. And, again, you use "sexist culture" as if it were another point not being repeated.



> let's not forget sexism outside of the states, in some places where it has much more dire consequences.


Sexism, again. Yes, in some parts of the world it really is crap for women. But I'm sure barely anyone on SAS is living in or posting from those parts of the world. I'm talking about our society, the one we (in this forum & our respective regions of the world) live in daily.


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