# Does blazing that og kush reduce Benzo withdrawal?



## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't know about y'all, but whenever I have a hangover, especially today, I go straight to my stash and smoke that mary jane. It always seems to help ALOT. You guys ever try blazing while going through withdrawal, or you think it might help? I really think it will... 

But anyway, this is interestin and ur input is welcome! Thanks


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Doubt it, weed doesn't exactly have GABAergic effects.

I'm actually surprised by the question though, didn't think there were chronic users. Before see a psychiatrist I had done just about every drug there is and I found that, for me anyways, cannabis was the WORST with regards to my social phobia and anxiety... made it like 100x worse.


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## dan14 (Sep 3, 2009)

Yeah im the same, if im hungover or feel sick i light up a spliff or 2 and feel better for it, havnt came off the meds with it tho.


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## SolaceChaser (Jun 8, 2009)

meyaj said:


> Doubt it, weed doesn't exactly have GABAergic effects.
> 
> I'm actually surprised by the question though, didn't think there were chronic users. Before see a psychiatrist I had done just about every drug there is and I found that, for me anyways, cannabis was the WORST with regards to my social phobia and anxiety... made it like 100x worse.


Well you are right about something, it can amplify the anxiety. I usually toke up after I have done all my work and work-outs for the day. At night when Conan or whatever is on, I blaze it up and it is fantastic. It might not have anything to do with gaba receptors but mj has a magical way of taking your mind off things. It has what Kat Williams calls, the "**** it" effect. The mind is a very powerful thing and if blazing keeps your mind away from withdrawal syptoms, maybe, just possibly it might be a huge withdrawal medication.

Anyone ever done this? Man, I would love to find that out


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

meyaj said:


> I'm actually surprised by the question though, didn't think there were chronic users. Before see a psychiatrist I had done just about every drug there is and I found that, for me anyways, cannabis was the WORST with regards to my social phobia and anxiety... made it like 100x worse.


really? I mean I totally agree with you that weed makes anxiety 100x worse, but I would have thought that more potent psychedelics such as LSD would be way way worse for anxiety than weed.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

SolaceChaser said:


> Well you are right about something, it can amplify the anxiety. I usually toke up after I have done all my work and work-outs for the day. At night when Conan or whatever is on, I blaze it up and it is fantastic. It might not have anything to do with gaba receptors but mj has a magical way of taking your mind off things. It has what Kat Williams calls, the "**** it" effect. The mind is a very powerful thing and if blazing keeps your mind away from withdrawal syptoms, maybe, just possibly it might be a huge withdrawal medication.
> 
> Anyone ever done this? Man, I would love to find that out


A hangover and a withdrawl are two very different things, your "med of choice" may work for hangovers, however abrupt withdrawl particularly from long term and high dosage alcohol or benzodiazapine usage, can result in complications such as seizures, if not properly managed. Since marijuana has no effect upon the GABA receptors, it would most likely not work in the managment of abrubt withdrawl from a sedative hypnotic.

To put it simply, sedative hypnotic (alcohol, benzos, barbituates) withdrawl has a physical component aswell as a mental component. If indeed your theory is correct, marijuana would be dealing mainly with the mental components only. This however may indeed by beneficial to withdrawl from other types of medication.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Benzo withdrawal + weed = a very bad idea, trust me. It does help to get stoned when hungover though.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

All depends on the weed of course but I'd bet weed would help anyone with just about any kind of physical pain. Whether it would help with withdrawal anxiety would be unique to each individual.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> really? I mean I totally agree with you that weed makes anxiety 100x worse, but I would have thought that more potent psychedelics such as LSD would be way way worse for anxiety than weed.


I tolerated LSD kind of well. I mean it usually was depressing and made me somewhat more anxious, but nowhere near as extreme as with weed. A VERY bad mushroom trip (I was an idiot and reckless.... took way to much) kind of helped me identify some of my problems, but I've also been scared ****less of psychedelics since...


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

meyaj said:


> I tolerated LSD kind of well. I mean it usually was depressing and made me somewhat more anxious, but nowhere near as extreme as with weed. A VERY bad mushroom trip (I was an idiot and reckless.... took way to much) kind of helped me identify some of my problems, but I've also been scared ****less of psychedelics since...


I don't think I'd even bother trying psychedelics even if I were into drugs, I don't get the big hype around them, not that I could anyway considering I'm on remeron ( a potent 5HT2A antagonist) lol.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

You would get the big hype if you tried them.


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah... it's impossible to explain a psychedelic to somebody who has never tried them. But euphoria is dead on. All I can really say is that the visual and otherwise "hallucinogenic" effects are just secondary effects. There's no doubt that some people do it FOR the visuals, but that's kind of foolish


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Indeed, very little can describe what it feels like to change the parameters of one's very existence. I haven't even tried classical psychedelic 5-HT2A agonists, but they're not the only drugs with mind-altering effects...


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

It just seems like, that with a mind tool that powerful, it has the potential to go horribly wrong, if it turns into a bad trip, for a person already predisposed to an anxiety disorder.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Every day has the potential to go horribly wrong for someone with an anxiety disorder, but that doesn't mean it's good to avoid life. I suppose psychedelics aren't such a good idea though if you have anxiety. In any case, an adequate dose of benzo would calm a bad trip, or even the knowledge that you have the power to do this should be comforting. Alcohol should do much the same as benzos. If you don't mind losing all effects, mirtazapine is considered the best trip-killer available.

You could take something like an opioid with it to ensure it's always going in a positive direction, or MDMA, chronic SSRI dosing (despite a minor reduction in effects) or possibly agomelatine (should remove a lot of anxiety from a trip). I dunno, there are literally millions of options when poly-drug-using to get the best possible combination of effects. I was gonna suggest ketamine, but a combo such as ketamine + acid would redefine the word 'intense'...

Oh yeah, we aren't supposed to talk about rec. drugs here. Oops.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

euphoria said:


> Every day has the potential to go horribly wrong for someone with an anxiety disorder, but that doesn't mean it's good to avoid life.


Thats absolutly true, however there are some inevitable disaters which are impossible to avoid, dropping a hit, on the other hand would usually be a choice.



euphoria said:


> mirtazapine is considered the best trip-killer available.


I have heard this theory, and it makes perfect sence, since mirtazapine is a potent 5HT2A antagonist. I'm not exactly sure what Kd value a 5HT2A antagonist would have to possess to block a trip fully though.
Also I'm curious, is there any physical proof or study or even anecdotal evidence that mirtazapine blocks the effects in practice though? Not that I don't beleive you, I've just never came across any.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> Thats absolutly true, however there are some inevitable disaters which are impossible to avoid, dropping a hit, on the other hand would usually be a choice.


Good point.



> I have heard this theory, and it makes perfect sence, since mirtazapine is a potent 5HT2A antagonist. I'm not exactly sure what Kd value a 5HT2A antagonist would have to possess to block a trip fully though.
> Also I'm curious, is there any physical proof or study or even anecdotal evidence that mirtazapine blocks the effects in practice though? Not that I don't beleive you, I've just never came across any.


http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=388516

"Remeron(it was the instant disolve orange tic tac things) killed a 2c-t-4 trip quick. It s like an off switch. "


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

euphoria said:


> Good point.
> 
> http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=388516
> 
> "Remeron(it was the instant disolve orange tic tac things) killed a 2c-t-4 trip quick. It s like an off switch. "


Thanks, I'll have a look.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Euphoria: Apparently d-LSD's binding affinity for the human 5HT2A receptor is 0.95 nM (agonist). Mirtazapine's binding affinity for 5HT2A is 10 nM (antagonist). So would this 10 fold difference mean that mirtazapine would only partially block its effects?

http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?C=ref&ID=910


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

I definitely wouldn't suggest using LSD with a mental disorder except under medical supervision... which is all but impossible with the archaic drug laws we have.

I've had very bad experiences with it, bad enough that I don't think I'll ever be taking it again. But I've had good experiences with it too.

One interesting thing that might be worth noting is that in a very small, subpsychedelic dose, not enough to get any noticeable psychedelic effects, it made me a lot more motivated and... optimistic might be a good way of putting it. I don't know if anybody might know by what mechanism it does this, seems like it could show some promise for further research. I doubt long-term use of low-dose LSD would be effective though, as tolerance shoots through the roof every time you use it.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> Euphoria: Apparently d-LSD's binding affinity for the human 5HT2A receptor is 0.95 nM (agonist). Mirtazapine's binding affinity for 5HT2A is 10 nM (antagonist). So would this 10 fold difference mean that mirtazapine would only partially block its effects?
> 
> http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?C=ref&ID=910


I'm not sure, but I'd guess that such a potent agonist would displace/counteract mirtazapine in sufficient concentrations. You'd probably need a higher dose, and at a higher dose you might notice more effects from other receptors acid hits, such as 5-HT1A (anxiolytic, antidepressant). I suppose it all comes down to dose and binding affinity.



meyaj said:


> I definitely wouldn't suggest using LSD with a mental disorder except under medical supervision... which is all but impossible with the archaic drug laws we have.
> 
> I've had very bad experiences with it, bad enough that I don't think I'll ever be taking it again. But I've had good experiences with it too.
> 
> One interesting thing that might be worth noting is that in a very small, subpsychedelic dose, not enough to get any noticeable psychedelic effects, it made me a lot more motivated and... optimistic might be a good way of putting it. I don't know if anybody might know by what mechanism it does this, seems like it could show some promise for further research. I doubt long-term use of low-dose LSD would be effective though, as tolerance shoots through the roof every time you use it.


Check this out:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/LSDaffinities.GIF

As you can see, LSD hits a number of receptors. Further complicating the matter, low doses of certain receptor agonists can inhibit neurotransmission, while the opposite happens at high doses. I think this is due to autoreceptors and the need for downregulation, unless you take a dose high enough to completely replace the endogenous agonist on postsynaptic receptors. For example, dopamine agonists like pramipexole require a "sensitisation" period, and initially (in lower doses at least) have anti-dopaminergic effects that actually resemble antipsychotics.

I couldn't speak about all LSD's target receptors, but it is potent on 5-HT1A which has good effects for mood and anxiety. Even though affinity on some dopamine receptors is relatively weak, it could explain motivation.

You might be interested in ergoloid mesylates AKA hydergine, which were discovered by LSD's inventor, Albert Hoffman. These are chemically related to LSD and may share some pharmacological similarities. They're currently used as nootropics.


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

euphoria said:


> Every day has the potential to go horribly wrong for someone with an anxiety disorder, but that doesn't mean it's good to avoid life. I suppose psychedelics aren't such a good idea though if you have anxiety. In any case, an adequate dose of benzo would end a bad trip, or even the knowledge that you have the power to end it should be comforting. Alcohol should do much the same as benzos. If you don't mind losing all effects, mirtazapine is considered the best trip-killer available.
> 
> You could take something like an opioid with it to ensure it's always going in a positive direction, or MDMA, chronic SSRI dosing (despite a minor reduction in effects) or possibly agomelatine (should remove a lot of anxiety from a trip). I dunno, there are literally millions of options when poly-drug-using to get the best possible combination of effects. I was gonna suggest ketamine, but a combo such as ketamine + acid would redefine the word 'intense'...
> 
> Oh yeah, we aren't supposed to talk about rec. drugs here. Oops.


Benzos don't do jack to kill a trip, LSD overrides it. You need an anti-psychotic to kill a trip like Seroquel, which is the best of what I taken, basically takes your current trip and the feeling is taking the trip into a crystal ball and then makes you pass the hell out. Ultimate bailout pill. The only negative is you won't feel the afterglow effects, which is the best feeling after a trip. Opiates wouldn't do a thing either, but MDMA on the other hand, makes your trip a lot more positive and might as candy-flip it if you are gonna take acid anyway.....


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

candy-flipping is really intense, if somebody is already being overwhelmed by the LSD it might not be the best thing to add.

You're right that benzos don't kill a trip, but they are helpful during a bad trip and are usually the preferred treatment in ERs, as they can help people calm down and work their way through it. Being given an antipsychotic in the middle of a trip is supposedly a very jarring experience...


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

meyaj said:


> candy-flipping is really intense, if somebody is already being overwhelmed by the LSD it might not be the best thing to add.
> 
> You're right that benzos don't kill a trip, but they are helpful during a bad trip and are usually the preferred treatment in ERs, as they can help people calm down and work their way through it. Being given an antipsychotic in the middle of a trip is supposedly a very jarring experience...


LSD it intense in itself and MDMA took the edge right out. LSD is pretty powerful and you'll need something potent to either ride it out or end it. MDMA helps you ride it out and actually takes that edginess LSD sometimes give you. Personally when I tripped a lot, I loved to candy-flip, take LSD and if you start freaking out, take a pill of E and you are good.

Eh, I didn't find it very jarring, it contained it and then knocks you out. Shows how powerful such a drug as Seroquel is that it can stop a trip in it's tracks, but it takes away the most important part, which is the afterglow feeling the next day. But I think riding out a bad trip is the best way to handle it. Taking benzos or smoking marijuana for example, is simply a waste because it really doesn't do anything except makes you believe you are calming down, but LSD is too powerful for either.


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## GSH (Jul 16, 2009)

SolaceChaser said:


> I don't know about y'all, but whenever I have a hangover, especially today, I go straight to my stash and smoke that mary jane. It always seems to help ALOT. You guys ever try blazing while going through withdrawal, or you think it might help? I really think it will...
> 
> But anyway, this is interestin and ur input is welcome! Thanks


Weeds a cure-all


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## Mr. SandMan (Aug 24, 2007)

A hangover from alcohol doesn't compair to withdrawal from a benzodiazipine, and that really has nothing to do with it, but i would still say no...


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

GSH said:


> Weeds a cure-all


Despite a period of "self-medicating" I had, doing anything I could get my hands on (pretty much anything you could think of), weed has been the hardest for me to handle. It makes me waaaay more anxious and withdrawn. And I'm always physically tense so the way it kind of relaxes every muscle in your body is really overwhelming for me.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

euphoria said:


> I'm not sure, but I'd guess that such a potent agonist would displace/counteract mirtazapine in sufficient concentrations. You'd probably need a higher dose, and at a higher dose you might notice more effects from other receptors acid hits, such as 5-HT1A (anxiolytic, antidepressant). I suppose it all comes down to dose and binding affinity.


My guess is that chronic mirtazapine administration downregulates the 5HT2A receptors (the main receptor theorized to mediate the psychedelic effects of LSD). Take for example how even after a person takes lsd a few times within a short period of time they build up tolerance due to receptor downregulation.



Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> Benzos don't do jack to kill a trip, LSD overrides it. You need an anti-psychotic to kill a trip like Seroquel, which is the best of what I taken, basically takes your current trip and the feeling is taking the trip into a crystal ball and then makes you pass the hell out. Ultimate bailout pill. The only negative is you won't feel the afterglow effects, which is the best feeling after a trip. Opiates wouldn't do a thing either, but MDMA on the other hand, makes your trip a lot more positive and might as candy-flip it if you are gonna take acid anyway.....


My guess is that seroquel kills the trip also mostly due to it's 5HT2A antagonism, (and possibly also 5HT1A, D1, D2 antagonism). The antihistaminergic effects are probly what knock you out.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> Benzos don't do jack to kill a trip, LSD overrides it. You need an anti-psychotic to kill a trip like Seroquel, which is the best of what I taken, basically takes your current trip and the feeling is taking the trip into a crystal ball and then makes you pass the hell out. Ultimate bailout pill. The only negative is you won't feel the afterglow effects, which is the best feeling after a trip. Opiates wouldn't do a thing either, but MDMA on the other hand, makes your trip a lot more positive and might as candy-flip it if you are gonna take acid anyway.....


Yeah, I should've clarified that benzos can help the "bad" part but not kill the entire trip. My apologies.

Have you tried opioids with acid? I was just thinking it's quite hard to be unhappy on them...


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

euphoria said:


> Yeah, I should've clarified that benzos can help the "bad" part but not kill the entire trip. My apologies.
> 
> Have you tried opioids with acid? I was just thinking it's quite hard to be unhappy on them...


I did oxy on acid once and oxy has always felt kind of dirty to me, and the acid just amplified that, wasn't really enjoyable.


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