# PUA: Yay or nay?



## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm split between learning PUA techniques which means using artificial canned lines, and learning how to talk to the opposite gender through experience, which takes much more time and effort.

I don't really have much of an opinion on the PUA industry. 

There are far too many opposing opinions to make a clear decision.

Some people hate it and say it doesn't work (PUA Hate), while others brag how they've become successful and it helped them overcome their anxiety.

I know most women will be vehemently opposed to this "PU lifestyle", but I want to get some opinions from people who have had experience with this. 

Thanks.


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

No comment.


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## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

yay why not give it a try


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Amocholes said:


> No comment.


I would rather you make one.

It's a very unpleasant topic for me and I need some feedback.


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## beethoven (Jan 17, 2011)

Maybe you should give it a try and see if it works for you. There are many people out there saying it changed their lives, but there's also a lot of people trying to make money from it.


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

Ivan AG said:


> I would rather you make one.
> 
> It's a very unpleasant topic for me and I need some feedback.


Very well then.

I think it is bull****. The individuals using this method have only one goal in mind and that is to add notches to their bedpost. They treat women as nothing more than a convenient orifice. They tend to be self-centered *******s who have no respect for anything except their own egos. They care nothing about anyone other than themselves and think only with their genitalia.

Did I leave anything out?


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## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

Amocholes said:


> Very well then.
> 
> I think it is bull****. The individuals using this method have only one goal in mind and that is to add notches to their bedpost. They treat women as nothing more than a convenient orifice. They tend to be self-centered *******s who have no respect for anything except their own egos. They care nothing about anyone other than themselves and think only with their genitalia.
> 
> Did I leave anything out?


 this but you could use your powers for good lol:teeth


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

Watch that. (No really. There's good advice there on how to conduct yourself when first meeting a girl.)

That PUA stuff seems more suited to picking up girls in bars and clubs. Well, if that's you're thing...


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Qolselanu said:


> Watch that. (No really. There's good advice there on how to conduct yourself when first meeting a girl.)
> 
> That PUA stuff seems more suited to picking up girls in bars and clubs. Well, if that's you're thing...


I'm obviously not the type of person who can just go out on a Friday night and do random pick ups while having a night out with the boys.

Not my thing.

I'm just curious how other people on here learned "socially correct" interaction with the opposite gender.


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

Treat them the way you would want to be treated.


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## jmoop (Jul 12, 2009)

I came across a PUA while I was working at my store the other day. He grossed me out when he made it clear what he was after.

PUAs are like actors playing a scripted role. You won't know the real person behind the PUA mask until you actually get to know them, but if the mask is ugly then there won't be any incentive to learn about the person behind it.


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## Your Crazy (Feb 17, 2009)

Thank God for Google...


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

Amocholes said:


> Treat them the way you would want to be treated.


this. women are people, just like you are a person.

making a decision depends on the kind of person you want to be.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

I'm not interested in following a bunch of instructions, and my views are never in lock-step with any particular group. Nor am I interested in winning the attention of the kinds of women (no, I don't mean the bar crowd) that their approach supposedly targets.

That being said, some of the general, and controversial, ideas in that community do have a modicum of truth to them.


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## Ununderstood (Jun 8, 2005)

Amocholes said:


> Very well then.
> 
> I think it is bull****. The individuals using this method have only one goal in mind and that is to add notches to their bedpost. They treat women as nothing more than a convenient orifice. They tend to be self-centered *******s who have no respect for anything except their own egos. They care nothing about anyone other than themselves and think only with their genitalia.
> 
> Did I leave anything out?


I wouldn't mind that at all.


To the OP: Go for it why not? I have seriously thought about doing this myself because I know that I won't be getting anyone into bed with me being who I am right now. That's just how it is and I gotta accept that fact, and unless I want to change something drastically then I will be a virgin for life. No thank you, I'm gonna do something bout it.

Just out of curiosity, what material are you going to purchase, or use while learning these techniques?


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Ununderstood said:


> Just out of curiosity, what material are you going to purchase, or use while learning these techniques?


No idea.

I've already been on a few blogs dealing with PUA and I was a bit taken aback by the views they have on women.

Guys like Roissy and Roosh for example.

http://roissy.wordpress.com/

http://www.rooshv.com/

There are so many methods and techniques in the "community" and some of them contradict each other so it's a crapshoot as far as PUAs are concerned.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

heroin said:


> I'm not interested in following a bunch of instructions, and my views are never in lock-step with any particular group. Nor am I interested in winning the attention of the kinds of women (no, I don't mean the bar crowd) that their approach supposedly targets.
> 
> That being said, some of the general, and controversial, ideas in that community do have a modicum of truth to them.


Do tell.

What parts would you consider truth?

PS: Also, how do you meet with the opposite gender?

Do you just go out to cafes and libraries?


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## Kakaka (Apr 7, 2010)

I like the fact they encourage you to learn through experience. After all how else are you going to learn if you don't get to talk to attractive women often. It might be horrific at first but it'll get easier. 

I don't like all this canned lines stuff though, I doubt any of that would work and it's probably quite obvious.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Ivan AG said:


> Do tell.
> 
> What parts would you consider truth?


Naughty naughty. Looking to stir the pot, are we? :lol

But I'll tell. It does seem to me that all that protecting/assertive/leader personality is very attractive to women. Regardless of their degree of success, those PUA types seem to be aiming to project that sort of image of themselves.

Some parts of evolutionary psychology do make sense to me. And the PUA people seem to pay a lot of attention to theories from the field of evolutionary psychology.

As for how relevant this is to my approach to wooing women is, it isn't. I am pretty comfortable with my own personality and I never actually make any effort to "impress" anyone (which has actually contributed to my horrendous record in job interviews, which is something like 4/25, and the most common feedback I get from those interviews is that I have an "attitude problem"). So that "truth" or knowledge is pretty much irrelevant to me in any practical sense.



Ivan AG said:


> PS: Also, how do you meet with the opposite gender?
> 
> Do you just go out to cafes and libraries?


I don't. The few times I do it's over the internet. A couple of times, women have approached me. I find it almost impossible to ask for someone's approval, so I never initiate any kind of personal relationship. Most of my friendships were initiated by my friends too, so it's not just something limited to interacting with women. I deal with people who approach me just fine though. No anxiety or whatever.

I make very little effort to "pick up" anyone. I'm okay being alone.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

heroin said:


> Naughty naughty. Looking to stir the pot, are we? :lol
> 
> But I'll tell. It does seem to me that all that protecting/assertive/leader personality is very attractive to women. Regardless of their degree of success, those PUA types seem to be aiming to project that sort of image of themselves.
> 
> ...


*I think confidence is probably the number one quality that PUAs aim to instill in their students. Like you said, being assertive and direct. I don't like adopting the whole "alpha" image that Mystery and Roissy always preach about. It involves a certain degree of misogyny which I don't possess (yet:|). *


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Another question.

How would I meet a woman that I can actually form a relationship with, if I do follow the PUA teachings?

If the whole premise of PUA is to have sex, then is there anything more to it?

This part really confuses me.

I'm looking for more than just cold approaches and all the weird peacocking stuff.


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## andy1984 (Aug 18, 2006)

My knee-jerk reaction is that PUA is crap. It is not something I would take seriously.

Maybe you could do it to meet and talk to girls. I like structure, so maybe it could provide that and make things more predictable.

I would reject any kind of moral teaching coming through this source though, which may make it difficult to do if they require you to see girls in a particular way or do certain things.

I have done internet dating, which is probably just as flawed. It doesn't matter if the approach is flawed, as long as you do approach. And then let it be become whatever it wants to.

I guess it could be like a game. People that play lots of computer games end up good with computers sometimes. Or sometimes they waste all their time playing games. :/


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## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

leonardess said:


> women are people


WHAT?!?

:fall

Now this just might explain the string of failed relationships and numerous legal proceedings undertaken against me.


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## zookeeper (Jun 3, 2009)

I'd like to take a stab at these, if I may.



> How would I meet a woman that I can actually form a relationship with, if I do follow the PUA teachings?


You won't. Even if you meet a potential partner, when they find out that what attracted them to you is not really who you are, why would they want to stay?



> If the whole premise of PUA is to have sex, then is there anything more to it?


No.



> I'm looking for more than just cold approaches and all the weird peacocking stuff.


I think you've found your answer then.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

zookeeper said:


> WHAT?!?
> 
> :fall
> 
> Now this just might explain the string of failed relationships and numerous legal proceedings undertaken against me.


I'm still waiting for my settlement.


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## Nae (Nov 10, 2003)

I've read up on it off and on, more on, lately. I haven't actually tried to use any of it..so theres that disclaimer that I haven't had it work because I haven't used it. My looking into it was more out of curiosity.

What I find fascinating is the visceral reactions to the subject, both pro-and against. I'm not convinced the caricatures people hold up of PUA turn out to be entirely true. One, PUA is doing _something_, because there are feminists responding and discussing the subject beyond calling it abhorrent, so you can't simply say it's crap and be done with it?

http://hugoschwyzer.net/2010/11/04/the-pro-feminist-pick-up-artist-rethinking-a-blind-spot/

http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/03/23/ethical-pick-up-artistry/

Another, and what I find most important part that's missing seems to be the fault of framing and misunderstanding about what is actually happening beyond pickup lines. Hugh Ristik critiqued this critique of PUA about teaching people to falsely signal who they were at lesswrong



> Wait a sec, what exactly is "false" signaling? And what's an example of it in pickup?
> 
> As I've argued in the past, you can't judge social reality by the standards of epistemic reality. In social reality, if you can get yourself and a bunch of other people to believe an assessment of yourself, and that assessment isn't based on blatant factual errors, then it becomes true.
> 
> ...


Hugh Ristik seems quite knowledgeable about PUA without a misogynistic tone and even critiquing the misogyny and generalizations that can be seen among PUA, for instance here (a link among an entire subsection of threads at feministcritics.org discussing seduction)

http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/02/24/pickup-and-seduction-techniques-for-feminists-noh

You could still argue that framing the subject in a different way doesn't change some of the underlying misogynistic themes or the people who use it to only get laid. Also, another argument against PUA that I have seen is that it uses and reinforces the standard dating game relying on traditional male and female roles, while the effort should be to abolish the standard dating game.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Ivan AG said:


> How would I meet a woman that I can actually form a relationship with, if I do follow the PUA teachings?


Anyone can learn seduction techniques and succeed with "women" to an extent, but as long you haven't mastered the basics of connecting with people you'll never have a satisfying relationship with anyone. Why waste your time studying tricks that only _seem _to solve your problems when you could be spending all that time actually learning how to form and maintain friendships (a skill that most people picked up in elementary school that most of us sadly still don't have)? It's not like you're getting any younger.

Shortcuts never work and are beside the point. Why is this so hard to understand?


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Man, save yourself the embarrassing realization later in life when you find yourself amongst good, mature people who don't do PUA crap! Save yourself from the embarrassment of finding out you were duped into a claim built upon insecurities and ignorance! Please! Take it from me... But hey, if you need to learn a lesson, go for it...but the journey isn't that fun, trust me.

Answer:
hell-motha-freakin'-nay!


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Everyone I have met who swears by it are complete tosspots. I think it says a lot about the personalities of guys who swear by it and see it as an acceptable way to view and treat other people.

But I suppose if you goals are to form relationships based on this kind of respect then you can expect to be treated the same. And I doubt genuinely worthy people would fall for that crap anyway, you would be far better off trying to overcome issues regarding meeting people in different ways which still allow you to still be a respectful human being.

Thankfully what goes around comes around eventually, and they won't like it one little bit.


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## snaps (Apr 30, 2011)

aaah PUA. I've read quite a bit of material on it. Unfortunately my anxiety (in this case Approach Anxiety) has prevented me from actually getting anywhere with it.

But at the same time I'm not sure it's how I want to meet a girl. Sounds like an excuse I know. But at the same time, the whole PUA crap is just not me. Being a player and going and randomly talking to girls is just not me. At all. Sad but true. Also probably why I'll be single for a very very very long time. 

However I'm sure it works if you do it.


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## Nae (Nov 10, 2003)

rednosereindeer said:


> learning how to form and maintain friendships (a skill that most people picked up in elementary school that most of us sadly still don't have)?


This is a good point. I can't find the link if I even have it, but an analogy I saw used for seduction is that of literacy. Most learn to read & write by the time they reach adulthood. Some fail to do so due to environmental or genetic factors and thus must invest additional energy and focus to learn those skills. Same with seduction.


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## Akane (Jan 2, 2008)

One liners are great if your goal is to have one night stands with women too stupid to see through them. Being the overly dominant, aggressive guy is also great for having one night stands or very short relationships with immature, insecure women who feel the need for an overly macho guy. Anyone with brains and confidence is going to see through it all and far more women than you'd think are more than willing to go out with shy guys or nerds who are willing to be themselves. My sister and I spent our lives aiming for nerds/geeks and chasing guys who were too shy to ask us out first. She's still at it. I messaged my husband first on okcupid and then pushed him in to helping with my computer programming homework when he was too shy to ask to meet. 

The problem is the shy guys just won't ask nicely. I can't count how many I never went out with or met on dating sites and never in rl because they just never got up the courage to ask. Some of them I waited around for months talking to them or waiting for them to talk to me in the hopes they'd get to it. The most important thing to making a relationship (after making sure you actually are stable enough for a relationship) is to get out there and meet people in some way, whether that's rl or dating sites, and then actually ask them to do things. How you go about that isn't nearly as important as just doing it even when you feel like you are failing.


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## Nae (Nov 10, 2003)

Akane said:


> The problem is the shy guys just won't ask nicely. I can't count how many I never went out with or met on dating sites and never in rl because they just never got up the courage to ask. Some of them I waited around for months talking to them or waiting for them to talk to me in the hopes they'd get to it. The most important thing to making a relationship (after making sure you actually are stable enough for a relationship) is to get out there and meet people in some way, whether that's rl or dating sites, and then actually ask them to do things. How you go about that isn't nearly as important as just doing it even when you feel like you are failing.


Your post compliments roissy's Just Say Something quite well

http://roissy.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/just-say-something/ (nsfw language)



> So you shouldn't worry about formulating the perfect witty opener, or a great one-liner that will instantly attract her, if that worry is causing you to abandon any attempt. You're better off saying something geeky than saying nothing at all.
> 
> Naturally, you will want to work at honing your JSS method so that what you do say is maximized toward piquing her interest. But if you're tongue-tied, mentally masturbating about the cleverness quotient of the opener you are mulling in your head is worse than staying silent. If the choice is between sullen silence and blurting out whatever nonsensical crap comes to you, always go with the nonsensical crap.
> 
> In that spirit, here are some JSS openers you can use in various scenarios. Some of these are cheesy, and that's the point. The goal is to get you talking in a natural, unforced way to a girl without dwelling too heavily on proper game technique.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

This is one of the reasons intelligent women automatically assume a guy is a creeper if he comes off as too charming. How about treating people like human beings and not convenient opportunities to get a notch on your bed post. PUA is bull****. I have no respect for anyone reducing human interaction to a stupid process that is not only intensely manipulative and selfish, but also completely devoid of sincerity. You will still end up alone, just feeling more disillusioned with people.


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## snaps (Apr 30, 2011)

diamondheart89 said:


> This is one of the reasons intelligent women automatically assume a guy is a creeper if he comes off as too charming. How about treating people like human beings and not convenient opportunities to get a notch on your bed post. PUA is bull****. I have no respect for anyone reducing human interaction to a stupid process that is not only intensely manipulative and selfish, but also completely devoid of sincerity. You will still end up alone, just feeling more disillusioned with people.


i also hate the idea of it and I don't even try to 'play'. but i'm still alone.


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## stranger25 (Apr 29, 2010)

I think PUA is garbage. A ploy by the top 10%-20% of successful alpha males who profit off of men who have been weeded out of the DSR world by mainstream society and women. PUA teaches you how to play mind games with your opposite sex to just get laid and how to use women and then dump them weeks later. Some guys ultimately sell out and leave their nice guy world behind and decide to become bad boys like this who treat women like garbage and use them for sex.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

This stuff works for one-nights. The rest - forget it.


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## IcemanKilmer (Feb 20, 2011)

Any experience you get talking with the opposite sex is beneficial IMO. 

The saying, "Practice makes perfect" holds true in this situation. It won't make you perfect, but practice always helps boost confidence if you keep doing it.


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## ForeverStallone (Apr 4, 2011)

Check out RSD - http://www.rsdnation.com/
They don't use canned lines, they teach natural game, teach you how to express your real self to women. No routines or anything like that, that stuff is old school.

Also look up '60 Years of Challenge', another straight up no bs, no lines kind of guy.

At this point in time I'm only reading material. not actually going out practicing this (for obvious reason), but its so much better than the older stuff I used to read where you had to memorize lines and routines, no way would I ever be able to do that.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

I know how full of BS PUA is, but from what I've read from other people's opinions is that some of their basic teachings are actually true. These same basic teachings are obvious to the properly socialized person, but for the SA/socially unexperienced these ideas are actually new. The problem is that while the properly socialized person can separate the good ideas from the bad ones, the socially unexperienced can't.

IMO, I would rather not put PUA stuff to practice. Sometimes it makes you come off as an idiot in front of others as it did to me in the past. PUA is mostly used to pretend to be something you're not, hide your insecurities, or unleash your inner loser (like in RSD). I think it's healthier to get a complete lifestyle change and change who you are, rather than play the lying to yourself and the pretending game PUA teaches. PUA tries to make you act like the cool guy, instead of transforming to be the cool guy yourself.

If you ever get anything out of PUA is social skills. And to develop social skills you need life experiences and knowledge on a whole bunch of topics. PUA never covers or ever talks about this which is bad. If someone stays at home all day and all he knows about are stuff like TV and video games, and rarely hangs out or has any friends then you can expect him to have very bad social skills.

PUA is is just another pseudoscience that promises a fix, without ever working on yourself. For those few that PUA might have worked for, they were probably attractive to girls all along and some of the PUA techniques can actually work for them, they just needed to approach/socialize more, and/or just needed to get the basics down.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

RSD kind of messed me up.

All that stuff about pumping your "inner state" and other vague and ambiguous phrases really threw me off.

I'm going out to meet women, not to mentally mas****** over Tolle and his spiritual teachings.

I wish I never read that stuff.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I consider it akin to putting on a false face.

You may think that it'll work, and it usually does. However, manipulation and lies are never good for a relationship.

Now, if *sex* is all you're after, then maybe you'd be satisfied with that? I dunno.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Yeah, if you want to get laid by an insecure chick willing to put up with your BS for a night, then yeah, it may work! Or she is also using you and doesn't care that your a dumbass... (thumbs up!:teeth)


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## Ununderstood (Jun 8, 2005)

Heh, I had a dream today about being in a PUA training camp, it was interesting.


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Ununderstood said:


> Heh, I had a dream today about being in a PUA training camp, it was interesting.


Did you go sarging?


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

What's PUA? Pick-up Artist?
I would rather be a used car salesman. :stu


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## jmoop (Jul 12, 2009)

millenniumman75 said:


> What's PUA? Pick-up Artist?
> I would rather be a used car salesman. :stu


LOL, that's exactly what a PUA is... they use the same sleazy psychological tactics but instead of the used car they are selling themselves.


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## ForeverStallone (Apr 4, 2011)

Ivan AG said:


> RSD kind of messed me up.
> 
> All that stuff about pumping your "inner state" and other vague and ambiguous phrases really threw me off.
> 
> ...


'State' is just another term for being in a good mood or feeling good about yourself. Even RSD say not to focus too much on it but to 'take action'.

Either way if you decide to try using PUA techniques or not, taking action is what's important, just like it is for everything in life.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Ivan AG said:


> RSD kind of messed me up.
> 
> All that stuff about pumping your "inner state" and other vague and ambiguous phrases really threw me off.
> 
> ...


Yeah RSD can be pretty horrible. It preaches natural game but it actually turns you into a freak/retard if you take it too seriously; it actually makes you act unnatural. All that state pumping was just an obvious give away IDK how I couldn't see that earlier before I really got sucked into it. The Tolle praising is stupid and useless as well. I remember how "The Blueprint decoded" made me go from the extremely shy guy to the stupidly retarded guy.

RSD/PUA stuff will damage you if you take it too seriously.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

:ditto I've always agreed with joinmartin, and have been through the same PUA crap and learned from it. The part where he described learning PUA crap and then battling the positives of life after learning it--whew, yeah, that is a major downfall to the PUA mindset. It actually takes you back a few steps from where you were before you got into it. It can be detrimental to your mental health if you don't learn from it. I've learned never to go back to that rhetoric again, so I know for certain I learned my lesson, and it may of helped me learn that lesson much faster than I would have if I never seen the "darkside" lol. Sometimes you need to see both sides to decide for yourself, and I feel like that PUA stuff has no benefit beyond instilling false hope and confidence in a very short specific point in time, and the baggage that comes with the mentality of PUA stuff is an exact opposite of what things are truly like! What people forget to mention is the levels of maturity that dictate a woman's response, etc, etc... they target insecure women because insecure women are susceptible to manipulation. If you tried PUA stuff on a secure girl she'd laugh in your face or ignore you. Even doing PUA stuff to an insecure girl will typically make you feel like crap because it's just a bad thing to do.... but no, they don't tell you it's bad..tehy tell you it is necessary to be that way because they are only focusing on manipulating the weak..and that is why it works....so you then walk around with a mindset that is false from the realities of the other 75% of women who live on earth. You go around thinking all women are insecure and susceptible to manipulation without even knowing yourself that what your doing is manipulation, and also without knowing of the other 75% types of other women. When the "positives" spring up under a PUA mindset, the PUA mindset fights that foreign positive reality (nice, friendly, accepting, loving women) with the idea that women are only after powerful men, etc, etc. If you want to know women, get to know yourself and then realize that every person on this earth feels to the extent of which you feel, and then realize that while you have an insecure and manipulated side, you also have a confident, truth-seeking, and humanizing side that support comfort and love and all the "positive" attributes that truly fulfill human emotion. Your not one character; your really a "fluid" character of many emotions. What matters is that you understand this and strengthen those characters you like so you learn to love yourself and create the headroom necessary to love others as well. And what I mean by love I mean to be able to connect more on a human basis....blah blah blah...


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## Ivan AG (Sep 29, 2010)

Thanks for the responses JM and bwidger.

I'm not sure how to respond yet.

Edit: What happens when I imagine being attractive to women?

A feeling of well being is the best I can describe it.

As some PUAs would say, "getting this part of your life handled".


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Ivan AG said:


> Thanks for the responses JM and bwidger.
> 
> I'm not sure how to respond yet.
> 
> ...


When you imagine being attractive to women? That is a good thing if it's not rooted in manipulation. If you feel attractive to women then more power to you! The only danger is when you manipulate someone insecure or weak-minded and use their insecurities to "like" you. After a while, you'll realize that people grow up and pick up on what your doing and can see right into your insecurities. It is like when a person boasts all the time about their accomplishments and you figure they are insecure about something. The same goes with not being yourself. True confidence doesn't come from manipulation but from understanding AND forgiving yourself for being imperfect. The reason being imperfect is powerful is because no one is perfect and thus you lose that tension you make to set those standards, and you also are more open mentally/emotionally and you let people in more. You'll be surprised how many people would rather join your side than depict you as "beta-male" or w/e they say. That is a horrible description of someone and only tells me the person saying that is insecure or ignorant of somethings himself. You'll have people follow or agree with these types simply becaus ethey are insecure or unaware themselves. If they knew better they'd realize how much easier it is to be yourself, and your chances of getting a real girlfriend will be much higher because you now understand why that 17 year old girl cuts herself or why a 50 year old man is "playing the game", or even better, you'll see a 20 year old person confident being himself with a sweet girlfriend who loves him and he doesn't need to manipulate her or "neg" her or prove himself to anyone. In fact, the reason why being yourself is empowering is because there are no more pressures to act or say something specific, and there are no suppressing human emotion to act "badboy". That **** is ridiculous! But don't feel bad you may of not known that because neither did I at one point. Just know that your getting a broader picture now and learn from it and it will help you for the rest of your life. These PUA guys maybe don't even know that and actually believe what they teach, which is unfortunate. Then you have the "PUA" guys who do know about the bigger picture but are business men manipulating you so you buy their product and make them rich. That's the real world for you on many levels.

Sorry about the ramble. Hopefully I answered your question in the beginning lol. If you want a more specific answer I'd be glad to help if you make your question more specific.


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