# Exercising Is A Scam



## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

Exercising is a scam. Here's why:

1.) I was part of the cross country team in high school - JV Squad, finished never in the bottom %. Didn't get any fame or recognition.

2.) Ran a marathon. Not very many people get to do this. Nobody gives a ****.

3.) Can't gain any weight at all weight-lifting, and I go 4-5 times a week, lift till I feel like I'm gonna puke (Actually did a couple times, luckily at home). 

4.) I golf a bit, but barely average. (I'll par a hole or two, but get mostly bogeys / double-bogeys.)

5.) All the exercising I do does little if anything to cure my ****ing giraffe neck that feels so tight.

Total scam. I guess at the very least it helps fight eye strain after staring at a screen my whole ****ing life.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

Exercising isn't for fame or recognition, it's about finding something you enjoy that can also keep you fit.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

wmu'14 said:


> Exercising is a scam. Here's why:


Depends what you think its scamming you into



wmu'14 said:


> 1.) I was part of the cross country team in high school - JV Squad, finished never in the bottom %. Didn't get any fame or recognition.


Pretty sure high school cross country isn't like winning the olympics.



wmu'14 said:


> 2.) Ran a marathon. Not very many people get to do this. Nobody gives a ****.


Yeh, nobody cares, if you are doing it to impress people you are doing it for the wrong reasons. It's a good achievement, if you think being able to run a long way is a good achievement. Most people don't



wmu'14 said:


> 3.) Can't gain any weight at all weight-lifting, and I go 4-5 times a week, lift till I feel like I'm gonna puke (Actually did a couple times, luckily at home).


Puking isn't a sign you are eating right, or progressively raising the weights. Are you still monitoring calories?



wmu'14 said:


> 4.) I golf a bit, but barely average. (I'll par a hole or two, but get mostly bogeys / double-bogeys.)


Stop doing things you aren't good at



wmu'14 said:


> 5.) All the exercising I do does little if anything to cure my ****ing giraffe neck that feels so tight.


Physiotherapy would be better. Not sure how you think it can change your neck though.



wmu'14 said:


> Total scam. I guess at the very least it helps fight eye strain after staring at a screen my whole ****ing life.


meh. Welcome back, I guess.


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## AvoidantGuy (Oct 1, 2017)

wmu'14 said:


> Exercising is a scam. Here's why:
> 
> 1.) I was part of the cross country team in high school - JV Squad, finished never in the bottom %. Didn't get any fame or recognition.
> 
> ...


Lol I really can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. I'm just going to assume it's not.

I honestly really don't care myself about cross country or sports in general on any level, high school, college or pro. But I think anyone who can run a marathon is a monster. I don't go around telling people that, but I notice the 13.1 and 26.2 stickers on cars all the time, and I give them the thumbs up for being able to do something I myself never will be able to.

As for you not gaining any weight lifting weights, I am willing to bet that you simply don't eat enough. The reason I say that is because I don't eat enough which is why I don't gain weight. I have told people for years "I eat so much and I don't gain a pound..." I eat like garbage, but I don't eat enough to actually keep any weight. I probably would hit 1800-2000 calories a day if I thought about what I eat daily. You need a surplus of 500 to 1000 calories per day over what is needed to maintain your weight in order to gain I think 1 or 2 pounds per week. If you are eating the same amount or not enough you aren't going to see any real muscle gain or weigh gain because you have no fat or calories in order to build that muscle and gain weight.

Go out and buy yourself a bag of this stuff called serious mass if you have not already done so. In one drink it has 1250 calories plus whatever else you put in at a minimum. Now drink that everyday and eat exactly what you already would have eaten in a day and tell me you don't gain weight. You will, and if you don't it is because you still aren't eating enough. When I was actively drinking this stuff, I put on weight a lot faster then without it.

It's all about calories in versus calories out. People who are overweight generally eat way to much and people who are underweight generally don't eat enough. Metabolism to me is what is bull****. I think it is a lame excuse for people to make about why they aren't the weight they want to be. Don't make excuses, make changes.


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## Sus y (Aug 30, 2017)

So you are not doing it so well yet but you think it's doing anything good for anyone? No, that's a lie, this thread is a scam. Sorry, not sorry lol. 

Ok, keep trying but it in a better way? Don't give up yet and as other have said, reorganize your motivations may do you well, do it for you, not for the fame.


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Your view of the world is bizarre.


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## cinto (Jun 19, 2017)

lol.Tell them that.


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> Depends what you think its scamming you into
> 
> Pretty sure high school cross country isn't like winning the olympics.
> 
> ...


"Stop doing things I'm not good at?" How am I supposed to get better? i thought exercise (or at the very least not sitting in front of a computer/TV all day was good too????

So nothing can fix my neck?

I'm not monitoring calories. Doesn't seem like it helps. Not hungry. I thought all this exercising would make me hungry but it doesn't really. It's a scam.

Puking shows you're working as hard as you can. Obviously not an 'end-all be-all' because you still got to make sure you're eating right, and I am. I DO know perfectly fit athletes etc. do puke and that can be - not always - but can be a sign that you're giving it your all.

Okay, so what is a good achievement then? Playing video games for 24 hours straight?


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

TheWelshOne said:


> Exercising isn't for fame or recognition, it's about finding something you enjoy that can also keep you fit.


I guess I like it, but it seems pointless at the same time.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

It works well for some people. I can tell you that basic exercise it vital if you sit around a lot. When you get older you pretty much just cannot live that way unless you have exercise equipment and get up and use it from time to time.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Callsign said:


> Exercise can help you grow new brain cells. True story.


Tell that to the legend that Muhammed Ali 

Quite a few things out there help grow new brain cells, such as meditation for example


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## BackonTrack (Oct 16, 2017)

I exercise purely to do something else than stare at a screen. That should really be a good enough reason.

If your puking afterwards, you're going too hard, take it a bit easier. Gaining muscle and weight doesn't happen overnight.

Exercise should make you feel better. It may seem pointless, but not only does it keep you healthy physically, but also mentally. If it makes you feel better it's not a waste of time.


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## Kilgore Trout (Aug 10, 2014)

I'm pretty sure no amount of exercise can dramatically change my body. Like some people go to the gym and after a few months they're huge.
I went to the gym for two months and there was absolutely no difference.


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## railcar82594 (Mar 1, 2016)

Well if you're puking instead of feeling sore in the muscles, maybe you need to increase the weights rather than the reps. Also, muscle milk or whey also helps. 

I'm older, and wonder if it's still a scam. I have more muscle and tone than when I was younger, but have more than few "fat" cysts or nodes under the skin where I'm worried it may develop to cancerous growths anyways.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

wmu'14 said:


> "Stop doing things I'm not good at?" How am I supposed to get better? i thought exercise (or at the very least not sitting in front of a computer/TV all day was good too????


I meant golf. There isn't any point in playing golf if you are doing it for recognition and you don't have the natural propensity for it. That doesn't mean all exercise sucks. Golf does suck though, objectively, and you should expect ridicule if anyone catches you playing it in those stripey trousers .



wmu'14 said:


> So nothing can fix my neck?


That's one for the doctors / physiotherapists. If it's too long though golf won't reduce its length.



wmu'14 said:


> I'm not monitoring calories. Doesn't seem like it helps. Not hungry. I thought all this exercising would make me hungry but it doesn't really. It's a scam.


Well then you aren't going to gain weight. Congrats, you just ignored what we told you in the other thread. Welcome to the world of being like everyone else in the gym and not gaining muscle.



wmu'14 said:


> Puking shows you're working as hard as you can. Obviously not an 'end-all be-all' because you still got to make sure you're eating right, and I am. I DO know perfectly fit athletes etc. do puke and that can be - not always - but can be a sign that you're giving it your all.


Working as hard as you can won't gain more muscle. You just need to progressively lift more weight over time and eat at a slight surplus. You don't even need to work that hard lol. I can't believe you haven't been able to do this. You have to eat when you aren't hungry, just drink some extra milk every day on top of your maintenance calories. (i.e. when you are full, at the end of the day, quickly neck down a pint of milk).



wmu'14 said:


> Okay, so what is a good achievement then? Playing video games for 24 hours straight?


Well if gaining muscle is your goal, then actually gaining muscle would be an achievement. Not eating enough and whining about it, because you somehow aren't able to drink an extra pint of milk a day (which is all that is needed), is definitely not an achievement.


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## sabbath9 (Dec 30, 2014)

I like to exercise occasionally


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> I meant golf. There isn't any point in playing golf if you are doing it for recognition and you don't have the natural propensity for it. That doesn't mean all exercise sucks. Golf does suck though, objectively, and you should expect ridicule if anyone catches you playing it in those stripey trousers .
> 
> That's one for the doctors / physiotherapists. If it's too long though golf won't reduce its length.
> 
> ...


Don't play golf for recognition. Never said I did play it for recognition. I play it because it gets me outside and CAN be fun. Does seem kind of pointless tho.

Don't play golf to fix my neck either.

Let me clarify why I think it's pointless (even eating at a surplus): I go to the gym, lift for few days, see gains and progress, take 1 or 2 days off, and then I feel like I lost everything when I go back on Day 3 or 4. My muscles have shrunk again (despite eating at the amount to make them grow the first few days) Do I need to be going every single day to get the gains and progress to stick?

And FWIW I DO lift as heavy as I can. When I can no longer lift my max, I progressively use lighter weights till I can't even do that anymore. (And while still working on the max, I'll rest for a bit, then return to it. When I am having a challenging time doing the max, that's when I'll start progressively using the lighter weights)


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

BackonTrack said:


> I exercise purely to do something else than stare at a screen. That should really be a good enough reason.


True. At this point that's the only reason I do it. Nice excuse to get outside in the summer, too.


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## railcar82594 (Mar 1, 2016)

wmu'14 said:


> Let me clarify why I think it's pointless (even eating at a surplus): I go to the gym, lift for few days, see gains and progress, take 1 or 2 days off, and then I feel like I lost everything when I go back on Day 3 or 4. My muscles have shrunk again (despite eating at the amount to make them grow the first few days) Do I need to be going every single day to get the gains and progress to stick?
> 
> And FWIW I DO lift as heavy as I can. When I can no longer lift my max, I progressively use lighter weights till I can't even do that anymore. (And while still working on the max, I'll rest for a bit, then return to it. When I am having a challenging time doing the max, that's when I'll start progressively using the lighter weights)


Your schedule seems fine with allowing a day to rest and grow in between. (or cardio) I'd suggest just sticking to a set weight and not using lighter weights when your original set is exhausted. Better to wait a few minutes to do another set or move on to another different exercise. It may take a while. Usually a month or more to move up 5lbs. But stick with your schedule and you may reach closer to your results goals in a half-year to a year or more. Just what worked for me. Probably others have more "expert" advice.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

wmu'14 said:


> Don't play golf for recognition. Never said I did play it for recognition. I play it because it gets me outside and CAN be fun. Does seem kind of pointless tho.
> 
> Don't play golf to fix my neck either.


Not sure what you want from anyone here wmu, if you like golf play it, if not don't. Nobody is forcing you. If you think its a scam then don't do it.



wmu'14 said:


> Let me clarify why I think it's pointless (even eating at a surplus): I go to the gym, lift for few days, see gains and progress,


This is imaginary. It takes months to see progress. I also don't understand why you think it's optional to eat at a surplus :lol. You want to gain weight, you have to eat at a surplus. How do you think that weight is going to get on your body, by osmosis?



wmu'14 said:


> take 1 or 2 days off, and then I feel like I lost everything when I go back on Day 3 or 4. My muscles have shrunk again (despite eating at the amount to make them grow the first few days) Do I need to be going every single day to get the gains and progress to stick?


It's called a pump, its where the blood goes into the muscles. No you don't need to train every day, you just wont notice gains because they happen so gradually. The way you will notice are:

1. Pictures, after a few months
2. The weight you can lift going up
3. Your body weight going up.

If you aren't logging calories, if you aren't weighing yourself to make sure you gain around 1lb per week, if the weights you are lifting at the gym aren't going up, then you are just wasting your time.

1. Eat at a surplus
2. Lift heavier weights over time

Monitor by weighing yourself.



wmu'14 said:


> And FWIW I DO lift as heavy as I can. When I can no longer lift my max, I progressively use lighter weights till I can't even do that anymore. (And while still working on the max, I'll rest for a bit, then return to it. When I am having a challenging time doing the max, that's when I'll start progressively using the lighter weights)


That sounds horrible. Just do 3 or 4 sets of 6-12 reps of an exercise, make a note of what weight / reps you can do, then the next time try to increase something (either weight or reps). But you will need to eat more so your muscles grow, so you can lift more each time. As you aren't eating more you are probably just lifting "to the max" the same time each time you go in, and you will be the same weight after a year.

For some reason you have taken what people who know what they are talking about here and just ignored it and focused on trivial details.

What is important:

1. Lifting more weight over time
2. Eating at a surplus
3. Weighing yourself and logging calories to make sure your weight is going up

What isn't important:

1. Vomiting after training
2. Doing weird training routines "to the max"
3. Complaining about not being able to drink an extra pint of milk each day. Or a chocolate bar. How difficult is it really?


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## JH1983 (Nov 14, 2013)

wmu'14 said:


> Don't play golf for recognition. Never said I did play it for recognition. I play it because it gets me outside and CAN be fun. Does seem kind of pointless tho.
> 
> Don't play golf to fix my neck either.
> 
> ...


Progress isn't made or lost over a few days, that's just not how it works. It takes thousands of surplus calories to gain a pound and thousands of deficit calories to lose a pound. How do you know you're eating at a surplus when you don't track your calories? Also how do you know you're gaining or losing anything when you don't have a scale? What you're describing is partially in your head and partially just getting a pump at the gym that fades after you're done.

And no, you don't need to go every day to see progress. I never go more than four days a week and for several months of this year I only went three days a week. Still made progress either way. The difference is I track my calories to make sure I'm eating enough and I follow a strict routine. It's really as simple as that. @splendidbob and I gave you a very detailed step by step guide that would absolutely work to get you what you were trying to achieve. Your goals aren't unrealistic at all.

As far as that last part lifting as heavy as you can all the time or trying to lift your max isn't productive. Increasing total volume drives your progress. This can sometimes be done just by increasing the weight for the same sets and reps and sometimes by increasing the sets and reps with the same or even less weight.

Your problem here is you're just winging this and that's just not going to work. It isn't a scam, it's just you get what you put in. Doing random exercises until you puke without eating enough is basically cardio. Doing a structured routine while in a calorie surplus would have a totally different effect.

Edit: lol, Bob pretty much said the same thing and beat me to it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

JH1983 said:


> Doing random exercises until you puke without eating enough is basically cardio. Doing a structured routine while in a calorie surplus would have a totally different effect.




I almost feel like he is doing it wrong on purpose so he can complain about it or something. It's bizarre how many times its been explained to him what is important, but he just wont accept it.

Love the idea that he is doing cardio


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

JH1983 said:


> .........





splendidbob said:


> ....


Look, I was just very frustrated last night.

You don't go to to the gym 4 or 5 days a week and not see any progress. I wouldn't be exercising the way I do if I didn't see any progress. The problem is, it just seems so minimum that it doesn't feel like I'm making any progress. And it feels like a lot of the progress I make is lost when I take a day off, so that's what's so discouraging. You guys have said it yourself: it does take time. Keep in mind I've only been doing this for a month or so. I was just very frustrated last night. I overall like exercising. It does seem like it helps my neck stiffness a bit, but unfortunately it just doesn't go away without returning again. I like to golf because it gets me outside and I do it with my brother so it gives me something to do with him.

Also, how did people gain (or lose) weight before they could track calories?

I am eating more then what I did before I started going to the gym. (Eating breakfast and a bag of nuts everyday) At the very least I'm not quite so skinny as I used to be.

Also, I'm trying to find a scale. I couldn't find it when I was at the store the other day. Is it in the exercise or health department? Not sure. I do really want one but am having a hard time finding one. I'm sure I have gained weight. Going to the gym 4 or 5 days a week weightlifting and eating more: you're going to gain weight. It's just very little progress. It's a process.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

What exactly is wrong with your neck? Do you have bad posture? (There are braces and lifts that can help to correct it) Is it too skinny? (There are lifts for your neck muscles, just takes a special harness thing.) Is it too long? (Probably nothing you can do about that other than get bigger shoulder muscles. )

But you still have to eat more calories than you are using to gain muscle. Mostly protein.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

finallyclosed said:


> What exactly is wrong with your neck? Do you have bad posture? (There are braces and lifts that can help to correct it) Is it too skinny? (There are lifts for your neck muscles, just takes a special harness thing.) Is it too long? (Probably nothing you can do about that other than get bigger shoulder muscles. )


All this.



finallyclosed said:


> But you still have to eat more calories than you are using to gain muscle. Mostly protein.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


Am trying. Eating more then I used to. Just very minimum progress so far. Only a month in or so. Don't go to the gym 4 or 5 days a week and not see progress.


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## discoveryother (Sep 18, 2016)

exercise makes me much happier. i just ride my bicycle... because its free. maybe gyms are a scam, they are so expensive. if you don't enjoy it, just don't do it...


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

andy1984thesecond said:


> exercise makes me much happier. i just ride my bicycle... because its free. maybe gyms are a scam, they are so expensive. if you don't enjoy it, just don't do it...


I do enjoy it. But it feels pointless sometimes.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

It still takes a while unless you're using steroids. Think months or years to really impressed yourself, or anyone else.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## JH1983 (Nov 14, 2013)

splendidbob said:


> I almost feel like he is doing it wrong on purpose so he can complain about it or something. It's bizarre how many times its been explained to him what is important, but he just wont accept it.
> 
> Love the idea that he is doing cardio


It's an accurate description, lol. Unstructured lifting in the absence of a calorie surplus almost ensuring no muscle or strength is gained. Therefore cardio by weight training.



wmu'14 said:


> You don't go to to the gym 4 or 5 days a week and not see any progress.


This is false. The majority of people that go to gyms make very little progress or no progress whatsoever. I've been at my current gym over three years and I'm a people watcher. It's very common to see people lifting the exact same weights week after week, month after month, year after year and their bodies never change in the slightest, muscle gain or fat loss. Or if they do it's so minimal it can't be noticed by anyone.

Diet is the key. Without being in a consistent calorie surplus over time you WILL NOT gain muscle or weight. You could follow one of the best routines available and take bodybuilding pro levels of steroids and you still wouldn't gain weight. Muscle cannot be materialized out of thin air. There has to be adequate calories to create it. I can't stress that part enough.

Once diet is on point training will determine the quality of your gains. If you have top tier genetics you can get away with not following a routine because almost anything would make you grow. If you're like the rest of us and have closer to average genetics following a program makes a huge difference. It's crazy not to really unless you're okay with very little progress.



wmu'14 said:


> Also, how did people gain (or lose) weight before they could track calories?


Trial and error. It's certainly not impossible, but why waste the time figuring it out like that when you don't have to? Same with following a routine. In time you could possibly figure out what works for you or you might not ever figure it out. Either way why waste time spinning your wheels when you don't have to?



wmu'14 said:


> Is it in the exercise or health department? Not sure. I do really want one but am having a hard time finding one.


No idea, I use the one at my gym. I'm sure someone at the store could help you or just order one from Amazon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

JH1983 said:


> ..........


If you could find where I posted 'I haven't increased my calories' and post it here, please do so now. Maybe I'm not at a surplus yet BUT: you guys posted yourself: even if you're tracking calories it STILL takes TIME to find out what your surplus is and trial and error, and to find out what surplus will give you that weight gain.

Also, ok, ok, maybe my 'routine' isn't good enough. I will see what I can dig up and try to follow it.

I am noticing MINIMUM gains. Obviously I'm not gonna be 220 after 1 month, that's just silly. It takes time. But I am seeing some progress. Don't see why I can't be frustrated sometimes? I've said it from the beginning: I use this Forum to vent when I'm feeling frustrated.

Also, those people you watch lifting the same amount of weight year after year with no body shape change either: You don't know what their goals are. That's that judging that I was afraid of and what prevented me from going to the gym in the first place. Maybe they are happy the way they are. Maybe they're doing it just for the fun of it. You have no idea. I think if their goals were what YOU think they were, they'd try to change something up. You don't know though. Not everyone is gonna be 250 pounds. That's not my goal. That's probably not their goal either.


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## JH1983 (Nov 14, 2013)

wmu'14 said:


> If you could find where I posted 'I haven't increased my calories' and post it here, please do so now. Maybe I'm not at a surplus yet BUT: you guys posted yourself: even if you're tracking calories it STILL takes TIME to find out what your surplus is and trial and error, and to find out what surplus will give you that weight gain.


I'm just saying if you were in a surplus you'd gain weight. I guess we really don't know since you don't track or have a scale.



wmu'14 said:


> Also, ok, ok, maybe my 'routine' isn't good enough. I will see what I can dig up and try to follow it.


Good plan.



wmu'14 said:


> I am noticing MINIMUM gains. Obviously I'm not gonna be 220 after 1 month, that's just silly. It takes time. But I am seeing some progress. Don't see why I can't be frustrated sometimes? I've said it from the beginning: I use this Forum to vent when I'm frustrated.


Nothing wrong with being frustrated. All Bob and I are trying to do is help you out so you aren't as frustrated. I'm frustrated all the time with my progress. Honestly my accomplishments in powerlifting are all I really have in life, so I take disappointments extremely hard.



wmu'14 said:


> Also, those people you watch lifting the same amount of weight year after year with no body shape change either: You don't know what their goals are. That's that judging that I was afraid of and what prevented me from going to the gym in the first place. Maybe they are happy the way they are. Maybe they're doing it just for the fun of it. You have no idea. I think if their goals were what YOU think they were, they'd try to change something up. You don't know though. Not everyone is gonna be 250 pounds. That's not my goal. That's probably not their goal either.


Not judging, just noticing. I'd imagine being hyper aware of what's going on around you to be pretty common amongst anxiety sufferers. I'd be the first to help anyone that asked me though. You're right I don't know their goals, but I can only assume they go to the gym to make changes, not stay the same. It's just for some reason there's an overwhelming lack of knowledge when it comes to training and nutrition when it comes to the average person. Very surprising with the availability of the information.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

It's not that great for losing weight unless you do a crap ton of it. The only time I lost weight from exercise was when I had to walk home since I finished my bar job (1am) after the subway shut down (12am). Took 90-100 minutes to get home. I wasn't even dieting at the time. In fact, I would hit up 2 or 3 different convenience stores on my route for different food (including junk) to gorge on when I got home. This was in winter (30-40F) and I was generally mildly inebriated on my walk home. 

I've had other commutes where I walked 30-40 minutes. Didn't lose any weight. Something about going over an hour triggered the weight loss.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

komorikun said:


> It's not that great for losing weight unless you do a crap ton of it. The only time I lost weight from exercise was when I had to walk home since I finished my bar job (1am) after the subway shut down (12am). Took 90-100 minutes to get home. I wasn't even dieting at the time. In fact, I would hit up 2 or 3 different convenience stores on my route for different food (including junk) to gorge on when I got home. This was in winter (30-40F) and I was generally mildly inebriated on my walk home.
> 
> I've had other commutes where I walked 30-40 minutes. Didn't lose any weight. Something about going over an hour triggered the weight loss.


With cardio you have to go for a certain amount of time for it to trigger fat burning mode, just like you noticed. Must have hit the right number.


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## doe deer (Oct 9, 2016)

no, it's not


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

JH1983 said:


> ...It's very common to see people lifting the exact same weights week after week, month after month, year after year and their bodies never change in the slightest, muscle gain or fat loss. Or if they do it's so minimal it can't be noticed by anyone.


Yep.



wmu'14 said:


> ...I think if their goals were what YOU think they were, they'd try to change something up...


It would be nice if we lived in a world where that were true, but we don't, many people (maybe most) don't act rationally and therefore waste their time/money looking for shortcuts. They then complain, thus indicating that they aren't satisfied with their results and that they are failing to achieve their goals.

And I have to be honest, finding a bathroom scale isn't difficult, if you haven't got (or ordered) one within a week from now I'd have to say that you're likely in the group of irrational actors.

Don't take this as an attack, take it as a wake up call.


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

LonelyLurker said:


> Yep.
> 
> *It would be nice if we lived in a world where that were true, *but we don't, many people (maybe most) don't act rationally and therefore waste their time/money looking for shortcuts. They then complain, thus indicating that they aren't satisfied with their results and that they are failing to achieve their goals.
> 
> ...


Where I was going with that was: They might be at the point where they're just trying to maintain what they have. A dude at 220 isn't necessarily going for 250 and vice versa if they're trying to lose weight. For a while - when I was big into running - I'd be happy with 3-5 miles a night. After a while couldn't do 6-7 miles very easy any more. Didn't mean I wasn't doing a good job exercising. I was happy where I was at.

Was at the store looking for a scale, couldn't find one. I'll try to stop by the store tonight and try again (have go get an oil change, then stop at the store, then head to the gym). And I can still notice weight gains etc. without weighing myself, bro. But you're right 100%: I need one, I want one, I should have a bathroom scale. But it isn't going to make or break progress.


----------



## Yer Blues (Jul 31, 2013)

So, you're saying I'm stupid? ;P


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Isn't eating lots of protein to build muscle a scam? My former roommate ate sooooo much greek yogurt it was frightening. He also bought those huge expensive plastic jugs of protein powder. 

Just seems like the fitness knowledge that is passed around is mostly pseudoscience.


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)




----------



## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

Yer Blues said:


> So, you're saying I'm stupid? ;P


Derrrrrrrrr.

;p


komorikun said:


> Isn't eating lots of protein to build muscle a scam? My former roommate ate sooooo much greek yogurt it was frightening. He also bought those huge expensive plastic jugs of protein powder.
> 
> Just seems like the fitness knowledge that is passed around is mostly pseudoscience.


Eating a lot of protein by itself to build muscle is a scam.
Eating little protein but still weight lifting is a scam.
Eating a lot of protein and weight lifting isn't a scam.



JH1983 said:


> .........





splendidbob said:


> ....


As promised, I bought a scale tonight before I went to the gym. Turns out it was in the hardware section for some reason at my grocery store. (Had to ask a worker where it was) (Not sure why it's not in the fitness or bathroom accessories or health section TBH)

It says I'm at 220. Not sure how accurate it is. I was stuck at 120 all through high school, and only recently got up to 150 due to eating a little more and I think my medication. Instructions say to calibrate it all you have to do is step on it a couple times and then turn the knob so it reads Zero.

I am NOT at 220.


----------



## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

@wmu'14


JH1983 said:


> *Diet is the key. Without being in a consistent calorie surplus over time you WILL NOT gain muscle or weight. You could follow one of the best routines available and take bodybuilding pro levels of steroids and you still wouldn't gain weight. Muscle cannot be materialized out of thin air. There has to be adequate calories to create it. I can't stress that part enough.*


This. You really really need to accept this.



LonelyLurker said:


> It would be nice if we lived in a world where that were true, but we don't, many people (maybe most) don't act rationally and therefore waste their time/money looking for shortcuts. They then complain, thus indicating that they aren't satisfied with their results and that they are failing to achieve their goals.
> 
> And I have to be honest, finding a bathroom scale isn't difficult, if you haven't got (or ordered) one within a week from now I'd have to say that you're likely in the group of irrational actors.
> 
> Don't take this as an attack, take it as a wake up call.


This.



wmu'14 said:


> Where I was going with that was: They might be at the point where they're just trying to maintain what they have. A dude at 220 isn't necessarily going for 250 and vice versa if they're trying to lose weight. For a while - when I was big into running - I'd be happy with 3-5 miles a night. After a while couldn't do 6-7 miles very easy any more. Didn't mean I wasn't doing a good job exercising. I was happy where I was at.


They aren't. They are trying to gain muscle or change their physique in some way (which amounts to the same thing).



wmu'14 said:


> Was at the store looking for a scale, couldn't find one. I'll try to stop by the store tonight and try again (have go get an oil change, then stop at the store, then head to the gym). And I can still notice weight gains etc. without weighing myself, bro. But you're right 100%: I need one, I want one, I should have a bathroom scale. But it isn't going to make or break progress.


Just buy one from amazon man, seriously, or ebay, it just needs to be a scale so you can compare your weight.

Look, a few things here:

1. We are trying to help you despite your own efforts to self sabotage. I don't know why you are doing this, but you *are* self sabotaging yourself, you need to weigh yourself if you are trying to bulk. You can't rely on "noticing weight gains", because you _actually think you can see the difference the day after training_. You need to accept you don't understand this stuff, you are very susceptible to placebo effect, self deception etc, and just listen to people who do. Have you seen (for example) Lonelylurkers pics? He knows what he is talking about.

I mean ****, I could give you some pics of my results from a 3 month bulk and a small cut. Its nothing spectacular, but its quite clear to see. All 3 of us know what we are talking about, and we are trying to help you. I could understand it if you ignored me saying "well you aren't buff, you don't know about this stuff), but @LonelyLurker and @JH1983 obviously, obviously know their ****, and we all agree. Listen, and do what we have told you to do and it will work, but you can't just skip the things you don't think are important, because you will get wrong what is important.

Finally, when you make threads like this, you will get responses, sometimes pissed off ones when you are just totally ignoring the advice and help that people have given you. They have taken the time to write you a complete guide about this stuff, and you just totally ignore it all. Would that not annoy you?

2. With this stuff there are some things you can slack off on, and some things you cant.

THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO:

1. Eat at a surplus, a small one, that means weighing yourself consistently and regularly to see if your weight is going up
2. Increase the weight or reps you lift over time
3. Eat enough protein

THINGS YOU DON'T HAVE TO TO

1. Train so hard you vomit
2. Train every day
3. Log calories (this only applies if your weight is going up, if it isn't you need to)
4. Everything else.

Really, its very very simple, you just have to do the things under the "THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO" list above. They aren't open to interpretation, you HAVE to do this, or you will almost certainly fail.

JUST. DO. THEM.



komorikun said:


> Isn't eating lots of protein to build muscle a scam? My former roommate ate sooooo much greek yogurt it was frightening. He also bought those huge expensive plastic jugs of protein powder.
> 
> Just seems like the fitness knowledge that is passed around is mostly pseudoscience.


Afaik, the amount of protein needed is vastly overestimated, I seem to remember 0.6g - 1g per lean lb of bodyweight is all that is needed. Say 0.8 to play it safe, that is a lot less than people tend to assume. Getting adequate protein is important though, both for dieting and for gaining muscle. Dieting you want to give your body the protein it needs so it doesn't catabolise muscle, gaining muscle, well it needs enough to actually make the muscle. Any more than this isn't necessary (though protein is typically more filling than say the equivalent amount of calories in carbs, so it does have value).

As to why people are so confused about it all

1. Wanting to gain muscle and thinking "more must be better". It's like Wmu thinking you have to seriously overeat in order to gain weight, where obviously a tiny surplus will slowly gain weight. Basically more is better.

2. Wanting a quick fix or solution

3. Commercial forces, supplement companies want people to buy protein and supplements. People selling exercise equipment want people to do cardio for weight loss, personal trainers want to overstate the value of exercise (and downplay the value of nutrition), gyms want to stay in business, its everywhere. People with financial incentives for ****ting out bad info.

3. It's also the sheer volume of information makes it difficult for people to filter out the crap.

4. Mistaking correlation for causation. E.g. a buff person does x, therefore you need to do x.

5. And yeh, basically broscience. I have spoken to a personal trainer with a lot of muscle etc, and she has stuff wrong, its incredible how much poor info there is and how susceptible people are to it.

I was the same btw, I spent literally years trying to lose weight by trying diet after diet and so forth. Eventually I counted calories accurately and for a long period and surprise, I lost 150lbs.

Wmu has been given the information he needs though, and he has enough evidence it comes from decent sources. Whether he chooses to accept itm and actually do it is down to him. At this point, if he fails to gain 10-20lbs of muscle in a year, he has chosen to do so.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

@wmu'14 its at this point I think you are trolling lool.


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> @wmu'14
> 
> This. You really really need to accept this.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Okay, not sure if you saw/read/comprehended my most recent post: I bought a scale. It said I'm at 220. Not sure if it's right. I remember being stuck at 120 (Even 115 on bad days!!!!) all throughout high school. I only got up to 150ish a year or so ago due to eating more and meds.

No way am I at 220. Don't believe it. I see a little more weight on me (fuller face, a bit more muscle, a bit more belly fat but not enough to be 220 I don't think. Maybe I didn't calibrate my scale good enough?

I don't care to see your guys's pics. As I've said from Day 1: My goal isn't be a body builder or super-buff. I'd just to look like I 'work out' (I hate using that phrase; I prefer exercise actually LOL) and gain some weight. If I really am at 220, then that's fine. Maybe 30 more pounds, and that should be fine. I don't need to look like a football player, or even a hockey or basketball player. See soccer players (professionally I'm talking) That's what I'd like. Not the 120 / 150 I've been stuck at. I want to look ****ing normal and not like a ****ing string ****ing bean.

Also, I didn't say anywhere that you have to overeat way over your surplus to gain weight. I'm saying that some people have to eat a truckload of food to get to their surplus. If you don't believe that, then you haven't met enough people.

My weight IS going up. I can see it. People have seen it. (they've ****ing told me). I ****ing bought a scale. Don't see what's wrong with training till I vomit. Obviously not gonna do that every time. (And as I've seen improvements over the past month, I haven't gotten to that part lately. Ever seen the Biggest Loser? They vomit on it. I've seen football players vomit. It happens. Not a good thing, but not necessarily a total bad thing either)

I am:
1.) Working on increasing the weight I can lift. WTF do you think I'm doing there? Can't even do a ****ing push up at the end.
2.) I am eating more. I have never ever stated here that I'm not eating more. If I'm not seeing any gains, then obviously I need to eat more.
3.) Bought a scale.

I am not:
1.) Doing it every day. I am out there most days of the week tho. (probably 5 days a week) 
2.) Logging calories 
3.) Training so hard I vomit. Happened twice, once in one of the early times going. As I've gotten better, and as I've gone more frequently, I haven't felt like vomiting.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

wmu'14 said:


> Where I was going with that was: They might be at the point where they're just trying to maintain what they have. A dude at 220 isn't necessarily going for 250 and vice versa if they're trying to lose weight. For a while - when I was big into running - I'd be happy with 3-5 miles a night. After a while couldn't do 6-7 miles very easy any more. Didn't mean I wasn't doing a good job exercising. I was happy where I was at.


I can't speak for @JH1983 but in my experience the people we're talking about aren't in good shape already, in many cases you wouldn't know they work out if they didn't tell you. Which outside of a few exceptions (such as being really out of shape to start with, or physical difficulty) is bad if you've been going regularly for an extended period of time (let's say over a year).



wmu'14 said:


> Was at the store looking for a scale, couldn't find one. I'll try to stop by the store tonight and try again (have go get an oil change, then stop at the store, then head to the gym). And I can still notice weight gains etc. without weighing myself, bro. But you're right 100%: I need one, I want one, I should have a bathroom scale. But it isn't going to make or break progress.


In a month, unlikely, especially if these gains disappear in a matter of days. When you don't have a feel for these things (which while you may one develop in the future I can tell you don't currently have) accurate, reliable data is key.

You have a bit of a habit for proclaiming knowledge about subjects you don't understand (by your own admission) when challenged. I assume it's just a defence mechanism so I don't take offence to it but that definitely could make or break success.

You've got some people giving you accurate advice here, listen to them and help yourself in the process.


----------



## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

Also: "They want a quick fix."

I've only been doing this for a month. Obviously it isn't gonna happen in a month and I can be a bit frustrated about that, can't I?


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

LonelyLurker said:


> I can't speak for @JH1983 but in my experience the people we're talking about aren't in good shape already, in many cases you wouldn't know they work out if they didn't tell you. Which outside of a few exceptions (such as being really out of shape to start with, or physical difficulty) is bad if you've been going regularly for an extended period of time (let's say over a year).
> 
> In a month, unlikely, especially if these gains disappear in a matter of days. When you don't have a feel for these things (which while you may one develop in the future I can tell you don't currently have) accurate, reliable data is key.
> 
> ...


Looks like you haven't read my posts either. I'm not gonna retype it all AGAIN.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

wmu'14 said:


> Okay, not sure if you saw/read/comprehended my most recent post: I bought a scale. It said I'm at 220. Not sure if it's right. I remember being stuck at 120 (Even 115 on bad days!!!!) all throughout high school. I only got up to 150ish a year or so ago due to eating more and meds.





wmu'14 said:


> No way am I at 220. Don't believe it. I see a little more weight on me (fuller face, a bit more muscle, a bit more belly fat but not enough to be 220 I don't think. Maybe I didn't calibrate my scale good enough?


I have to agree with @splendidbob here. Before I'd even seen his post, as soon as I saw the number 220 I thought, "he's making me wonder again, this is far too convenient".


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

wmu'14 said:


> Also: "They want a quick fix."
> 
> I've only been doing this for a month. Obviously it isn't gonna happen in a month and I can be a bit frustrated about that, can't I?


Of course you can, it just wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.



wmu'14 said:


> Looks like you haven't read my posts either. I'm not gonna retype it all AGAIN.


There's no need, I got it the first time.


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

​


LonelyLurker said:


> Of course you can, it just wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.


It doesn't make sense to vent frustrations. Okay then.........I will ask the mods to delete the Frustration subsection then.



LonelyLurker said:


> There's no need, I got it the first time.


Wasn't sure. There was all this 'YOU NEED A SCALE" but my post above it I stated I got a scale.


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

LonelyLurker said:


> I have to agree with @splendidbob here. Before I'd even seen his post, as soon as I saw the number 220 I thought, "he's making me wonder again, this is far too convenient".


Dude I swear on The Precious that that's what the scale says and I swear on The Precious I don't believe it.

220 was my goal. 220 was what I wanted.

Step on the scale.

220.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

wmu'14 said:


> Okay, not sure if you saw/read/comprehended my most recent post: I bought a scale. It said I'm at 220. Not sure if it's right. I remember being stuck at 120 (Even 115 on bad days!!!!) all throughout high school. I only got up to 150ish a year or so ago due to eating more and meds.


Took me a while to write that, you posted in between I hadn't seen it at that point.



wmu'14 said:


> No way am I at 220. Don't believe it. I see a little more weight on me (fuller face, a bit more muscle, a bit more belly fat but not enough to be 220 I don't think. Maybe I didn't calibrate my scale good enough?


How aren't you able to know if you are what, 70lbs heavier than you thought? I mean really man, you are talking about bulking, and you aren't sure if you are 120, 150 or 220.

How can't you weigh yourself? I mean, just what? What? WTF.

This is why you weigh and measure, esp given that your own judgement is obviously horribly flawed. Probably BDD.



wmu'14 said:


> I don't care to see your guys's pics. As I've said from Day 1: My goal isn't be a body builder or super-buff. I'd just to look like I 'work out' (I hate using that phrase; I prefer exercise actually LOL) and gain some weight. If I really am at 220, then that's fine. Maybe 30 more pounds, and that should be fine. I don't need to look like a football player, or even a hockey or basketball player. See soccer players (professionally I'm talking) That's what I'd like. Not the 120 / 150 I've been stuck at. I want to look ****ing normal and not like a ****ing string ****ing bean.


This is what you don't understand, it isn't like the super buff people do magical special super buff exercises and diet, and the lesser buff people do lesser exercises and diet, you need to do the stuff we have told you to gain _any_ muscle, its more like a binary thing, either you do it or you dont. How long you do it for and genetics determines how buff you get.



wmu'14 said:


> Also, I didn't say anywhere that you have to overeat way over your surplus to gain weight. I'm saying that some people have to eat a truckload of food to get to their surplus. If you don't believe that, then you haven't met enough people.


I have read studies that demonstrate the variation in maintenance in people is roughly 10% or so, within the vast majority of cases, that is one mars bar.



wmu'14 said:


> My weight IS going up. I can see it. People have seen it. (they've ****ing told me). I ****ing bought a scale. Don't see what's wrong with training till I vomit. Obviously not gonna do that every time. (And as I've seen improvements over the past month, I haven't gotten to that part lately. Ever seen the Biggest Loser? They vomit on it. I've seen football players vomit. It happens. Not a good thing, but not necessarily a total bad thing either)


Of course vomiting is stupid. Why on earth would you train so hard you vomit? For the extra 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % muscle growth?

The biggest loser is a pile of poo, as well btw.



wmu'14 said:


> I am:
> 1.) Working on increasing the weight I can lift. WTF do you think I'm doing there? Can't even do a ****ing push up at the end.
> 2.) I am eating more. I have never ever stated here that I'm not eating more. If I'm not seeing any gains, then obviously I need to eat more.
> 3.) Bought a scale.
> ...


You bought a scale one month in. You are bulking and you waited a month before weighing yourself ffs. I am also not talking about _trying_ to increase the weight you lift, the weight _has_ to go up, or you aren't gaining muscle, and in the beginning either weight or reps on the first set should rise each session, for the most part.



wmu'14 said:


> Also: "They want a quick fix."
> 
> I've only been doing this for a month. Obviously it isn't gonna happen in a month and I can be a bit frustrated about that, can't I?


Not if you haven't actually got any measurements whatsoever to base it on no. Be frustrated, but don't tell people its a scam when you cant even be bothered to have any reliable way to determine if its working or not.



wmu'14 said:


> Dude I swear on The Precious that that's what the scale says and I swear on The Precious I don't believe it.
> 
> 220 was my goal. 220 was what I wanted.
> 
> ...


You are either a troll or have BDD. I am going with troll, it's all too convenient, esp with the pic posted in the pics thread just now and the suspicious weight.

If you are a troll, you are a master. Fine. But some people have put some serious time and effort into trying to help you (not myself), and that is pretty ****ed up.


----------



## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Also, if you think I am being overly harsh or something, then don't make threads like these. You invited it by pretty much flipping the bird at those who have tried to help you.


----------



## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> Took me a while to write that, you posted in between I hadn't seen it at that point.
> 
> How aren't you able to know if you are what, 70lbs heavier than you thought? I mean really man, you are talking about bulking, and you aren't sure if you are 120, 150 or 220.
> 
> ...


Okay, just a couple items because I'm getting sleepy:

First: I had wanted a scale since the beginning. However I wasn't rushing out to get one because I saw I was still making a little progress. Was also too lazy to go get one. Now I have one.

2) Possible I do have some sort of BDD. Been told I've been a ****ing string bean my whole ****ing life. And I've had 'you need to be super-buff and have a great body to be manly' shoved down my throat my whole life. (How come there's no 'society's pressure for men to have perfect bodies' debate?) The mentality that I'm not ****ing skinny isn't just gonna go away. (Also still really hate my nose; I wish exercising made that smaller! LOL)

3.) I've also seen HUGE people eat very little and not lose weight. I've seen very skinny people (not me BTW) eat a lot more then 'average' people and not gain weight. Also, I think you're contradicting yourself. In one post you say that it takes time to find surplus so that's why I MUST track calories; in your next post you say 'could be as little as one Mars Bar or a pint of milk.'

4.) I can take a pic of the scale with me on it and it'll say 220 (right on the dot) and I can post it here. I'm not kidding. I don't look 220.

5.) I think you interpreted my 'I don't want to look super buff' paragraph incorrectly.

6.) What is an ideal weight? If I really am 220, that still is very skinny. I always thought 220 was more then that. Maybe 260?


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> Also, if you think I am being overly harsh or something, then don't make threads like these. You invited it by pretty much flipping the bird at those who have tried to help you.


IDK I guess I'm just used to people trying to help me, and I do EXACTLY what they say by the book, and then I find there's just more and more and more hoops I have to jump through.


----------



## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

wmu'14 said:


> Okay, just a couple items because I'm getting sleepy:
> 
> First: I had wanted a scale since the beginning. However I wasn't rushing out to get one because I saw I was still making a little progress. Was also too lazy to go get one. Now I have one.


Well I am glad you have one now at least. You have to start trusting what is on the scale (if you have any free weights lying around then weigh those, just to make sure it's accurate) or get someone else to weigh themselves on it, just to make sure.

What height are you? Because that makes all of the difference here.

Use BMI as a very rough guide as to whether you need to lose or gain weight. If you are 220, then its more than likely you need to diet. Unless you are like 6ft 5. Fwiw, I alternate between 190 and 210, cut and bulk, and that doesn't even take me down to low body fat (and 6ft1 - 6ft2).



wmu'14 said:


> 2) Possible I do have some sort of BDD. Been told I've been a ****ing string bean my whole ****ing life. And I've had 'you need to be super-buff and have a great body to be manly' shoved down my throat my whole life. (How come there's no 'society's pressure for men to have perfect bodies' debate?) The mentality that I'm not ****ing skinny isn't just gonna go away. (Also still really hate my nose; I wish exercising made that smaller! LOL)


That debate isn't in the mainstream enough, but its very much there, trust me. A lot of your guys hopping on steroids to get the physique they want, it sucks and its starting to be more and more of a serious problem.



wmu'14 said:


> 3.) I've also seen HUGE people eat very little and not lose weight. I've seen very skinny people (not me BTW) eat a lot more then 'average' people and not gain weight. Also, I think you're contradicting yourself. In one post you say that it takes time to find surplus so that's why I MUST track calories; in your next post you say 'could be as little as one Mars Bar or a pint of milk.'


What you see isn't the whole deal. Esp very overweight people, they will often binge in secret. Re the surplus, to absolutely find it with precision you need to track for a while. However, if you are weighing yourself regularly and you aren't gaining or losing weight, you have your surplus, then you just need to eat a bit more. It is more important to find this with precision when losing, because people lie to themselves (not on purpose) when trying to lose weight.

It's really just a matter of "can you do it without logging?" either way. If you either aren't able to gain weight at the right amount, or lose weight at the right amount, you need to log. It's a tool that makes everything work perfectly, pretty much. If you want to ensure everything works perfectly, then log. I don't log dieting, because I logged for 3 years, I can lose without it, though not at the same rate.



wmu'14 said:


> 4.) I can take a pic of the scale with me on it and it'll say 220 (right on the dot) and I can post it here. I'm not kidding. I don't look 220.


If the scale is accurate (weigh some plates or something, you are 220, and you don't need to gain weight, you probably need to diet (depending on height). If you think you do, you have BDD, unless you are v tall)



wmu'14 said:


> 5.) I think you interpreted my 'I don't want to look super buff' paragraph incorrectly.


Maybe, what I am saying is, however buff you want to look,you have to train in the same way.



wmu'14 said:


> 6.) What is an ideal weight? If I really am 220, that still is very skinny. I always thought 220 was more then that. Maybe 260?


220 is likely overweight, depends on your height.



wmu'14 said:


> IDK I guess I'm just used to people trying to help me, and I do EXACTLY what they say by the book, and then I find there's just more and more and more hoops I have to jump through.


I think you are misreading the book here 

Get scale, weigh regularly, adjust food intake to make surplus, lift heavy and make sure weights lifted go up over time.

However, based on your latest weight, you might need to run at a small deficit.

But let me know what height you are.


----------



## JH1983 (Nov 14, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> I can't speak for @JH1983 but in my experience the people we're talking about aren't in good shape already, in many cases you wouldn't know they work out if they didn't tell you. Which outside of a few exceptions (such as being really out of shape to start with, or physical difficulty) is bad if you've been going regularly for an extended period of time (let's say over a year).


Yeah, that's what I meant. Most of them don't look like they work out at all. I know they're trying to progress, but lack the knowledge and understanding of the process. Honestly most anyone that's huge is still trying to change as well because they've likely developed BDD by that point, lol. Anyway, like you said if you've been at it over a year and made zero progress that's a problem and it's very common. It's just a lack of knowledge and understanding of training and nutrition. Would be like me saying I'm going to make a living off the stock market. I have no education on the subject and know very little about it. Maybe I get lucky once in awhile, but odds are I'm not going to be very successful. In time I might start to figure it out, perhaps not. Studying the subject and taking the advice of those more knowledgeable would definitely speed up the process though.



splendidbob said:


> How aren't you able to know if you are what, 70lbs heavier than you thought? I mean really man, you are talking about bulking, and you aren't sure if you are 120, 150 or 220.
> 
> How can't you weigh yourself? I mean, just what? What? WTF.
> 
> This is why you weigh and measure, esp given that your own judgement is obviously horribly flawed. Probably BDD.


This has taken a turn into ridiculousness for sure. At his height weighing 220lbs he'd be obese enough there'd be no mistaking him for being skinny. That's like 40+ inch waist territory. If he'd been working out consistently for a decade he'd be 25% bodyfat at that weight if he was natty.



splendidbob said:


> This is what you don't understand, it isn't like the super buff people do magical special super buff exercises and diet, and the lesser buff people do lesser exercises and diet, you need to do the stuff we have told you to gain _any_ muscle, its more like a binary thing, either you do it or you dont. How long you do it for and genetics determines how buff you get.


My exercise selection is very small. It's better to master the relevant ones than it is to play around with a bunch of them. I look at them like skills that need to be perfected.



splendidbob said:


> I have read studies that demonstrate the variation in maintenance in people is roughly 10% or so, within the vast majority of cases, that is one mars bar.


I'd say that's accurate. Just looked up mine and it said 3800. 10% over would be 4100ish and that's in line with my experience.



splendidbob said:


> Of course vomiting is stupid. Why on earth would you train so hard you vomit? For the extra 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % muscle growth?


In my last 7+ years of working out I've never once vomited from exercise. Train smarter, not harder. We could jump up and down on one foot until we puked. Doesn't mean it's a productive thing to do.[/QUOTE]



wmu'14 said:


> 6.) What is an ideal weight? If I really am 220, that still is very skinny. I always thought 220 was more then that. Maybe 260?


This is the kind of statement that makes me doubt your sincerity. These weights you're throwing around are unrealistic. At your height even a fairly lean and muscular 220lbs (which wouldn't be possible natty, by the way) would be very big. For reference Arnold Schwarzenegger was 235lbs at 6'2" when he won Mr. Olympia.

Regardless of diet and training for any amount of time if you were natural at 260lbs you would be very obese. Even at 220lbs you would be obese. Even being fairly lean at 200lbs after years of proper diet and exercise would be pushing the limits of what's possible.

I find it hard to believe you can't tell the difference between 150lbs and 220lbs and could possibly believe 260lbs could be considered ideal by anyone. The reality is the vast majority of men are overweight, many are underweight, those that look like they lift are the vast minority and the "super buff" men are less than 0.1%. There's no expectation for anyone to be "super buff" and if you're relatively lean and remotely look like you work out you're ahead of the pack.

This is the realty of what's possible and what it takes to get there for a man of average height:

You want to look like you lift? About 180lbs fairly lean you wouldn't be huge, but it would be somewhat obvious you lifted in a shirt. This could be achieved naturally in 1-2 years of consistent training and good diet. It likely wouldn't require going beyond early intermediate levels of training. You'd be in better shape than most men your age in the country.

At 200lbs fairly lean there'd be no doubt to anyone that you were serious about the gym. This could possibly be achieved naturally in 3-5 years of very consistent training and diet. This would represent the maximum achievement of training naturally. Your diet and training would have to be spot on all the time. You'd be very strong in all areas. Very few could ever reach this level naturally. You're the 1% at this point.

At 220lbs fairly lean you'd have maxed out your natural potential and been cycling at least testosterone for a couple years. You'd be one of the biggest guys in any commercial gym and most people would consider you huge. It would be obvious you lifted even in baggy clothes. Your training would be pretty advanced by this point, your diet would be spot on and you would've been very consistent with both for a long time. Some women would consider you too big and many would be put off by the lifestyle required to be at this level. Most steroid users aren't even this size. You're bigger and leaner than 99.99% of men of any age.

At 260lbs fairly lean you are freakishly huge by any standard. You no longer do cycles and have to stay on at least moderate doses of testosterone year-round to maintain your size and have been for years. You incorporate harsher steroids regularly and most likely use HGH and insulin. It's rare that you ever encounter anyone else as big as you at any commercial gym or anywhere for that matter. You eat constantly and never go anywhere without Tupperwares of food. You're extremely strong, probably benching 405lbs for reps. Most women aren't attracted to you because you're too big. Very few would be able to put up with your lifestyle that revolved almost entirely around food, drugs and training. Very, very few men have the desire, drive, and genetics to reach this size and most could never do it regardless of food, training, and drugs.

So, I think you need to reassess what you think is ideal. These numbers you're throwing around are crazy.

@LonelyLurker @splendidbob do you guys concur about what's realistically achievable naturally and what's not?

Edit: Bob, he said he was 5'7" or 5'8" in one of those other threads.


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## unemployment simulator (Oct 18, 2015)

exercise, such a terrible scam! its got me healthier and fitter than I was 20 years ago, I feel short-changed! I wanna be unhealthy!


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

@JH1983 Honestly at this point I can't consider him as anything other than a troll. It seems pointless to carry on unless he is able to accurately give us his weight (and by accurately I mean within say, oh, I don't know 50lbs or so ).


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## JH1983 (Nov 14, 2013)

splendidbob said:


> @JH1983 Honestly at this point I can't consider him as anything other than a troll. It seems pointless to carry on unless he is able to accurately give us his weight (and by accurately I mean within say, oh, I don't know 50lbs or so ).


Yeah, I know. I'm compelled to argue this stuff though because of the amount of bad information out there. Might help someone. Got a lot of free time these days anyway.


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## Chevy396 (Jul 10, 2017)

The healthcare system is a scam. If you don't exercise and eat right you will end up getting caught in it.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

JH1983 said:


> Yeah, I know. I'm compelled to argue this stuff though because of the amount of bad information out there. Might help someone. Got a lot of free time these days anyway.


I know what you mean. How many people who go to gym's do you think actually understand about the whole eating at a surplus thing?  - I mean its no skin off my nose or anything, just seems stupid when people waste massive amounts of their tine and get nowhere then proclaim "it doesn't work"


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> Well I am glad you have one now at least. You have to start trusting what is on the scale (if you have any free weights lying around then weigh those, just to make sure it's accurate) or get someone else to weigh themselves on it, just to make sure.
> 
> What height are you? Because that makes all of the difference here.
> 
> ...


Thanks. This post of yours sounds very civil. It's funny because sometimes you seem very harsh and critical, and other times you seem like you're not as frustrated with me.

When I say 'I have to jump through hoops over and over following the book exactly, I'm not referring to exercising BTW 

I am 5ft 7in.

I will weigh some little hand weights tonight to see what the scale reads them as.

Good to hear that that debate does get brought up. It seems very rare tho.

Not sure if I trust BMI. BMI said I was obese at 150!


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

JH1983 said:


> @LonelyLurker @splendidbob do you guys concur about what's realistically achievable naturally and what's not?
> 
> Edit: Bob, he said he was 5'7" or 5'8" in one of those other threads.


Yes I would concur, when people obsess about weight without any idea of composition etc. it just reminds me of people who think your supplements are the key to success.

Most people who focus on gaining weight (without considering other factors such as LBM) just end up fat and delusional, focus on getting stronger and you'll get results, whatever you weigh is what you weigh. For most people, focus on the results (improvements in strength and/or fitness) and the lifestyle (in terms of nutrition and regular exercise) and you'll get what you want, the weight is largely irrelevant IMO (changes in weight are relevant but not the weight itself, if that makes sense).

Some people look amazing at 150lbs, others don't look like they've done a days exercise in their life, it all depends, the weight isn't what makes you look good.

Obviously none of that is directed at you @JH1983, I can see you already know what you're doing.


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## JH1983 (Nov 14, 2013)

splendidbob said:


> I know what you mean. How many people who go to gym's do you think actually understand about the whole eating at a surplus thing?  - I mean its no skin off my nose or anything, just seems stupid when people waste massive amounts of their tine and get nowhere then proclaim "it doesn't work"


 Very few unfortunately. Likewise with a calorie deficit being required for weight loss. It doesn't really affect me either except I want to see people succeed. Same with training knowledge. I don't give unsolicited advice, but it's not uncommon I get asked about something and when I tell them they usually don't listen because it doesn't line up with the conventional bro lore that gets passed around every gym on earth. It's usually how do you bench so much because let's face it most people don't do legs. As you can imagine it's not super complicated, but it's nothing like you see on international chest day (Monday), so it inevitably gets ignored and said person continues to bench the same weight every Monday.

About two years ago a guy came up to me at the gym and asked me for advice for getting his bench up. We're actually pretty good friends now, but at that time I didn't know him. Anyway he was 38 then and wanted to bench 315lbs before he was 40. He'd been doing the typical routine you see for a year or two and his max was around 165-175lbs. I told him I could get him there. He started working with me and following everything I told. About a year ago he got put on a different shift at work and we couldn't lift together, but he checked in regularly and continued what I taught him. A couple month's ago he switched shifts again and we're able to hit the gym together once in awhile again. He hit 325lbs recently. A few months after his 40th birthday, but he was super happy with it. What I'm getting at is he's just an average dude, well past his prime at 40, and he's benching what every teen and 20 something dude at the gym dreams of, but fails to because they don't have the knowledge to set up a routine. It really makes all the difference in the world. It's not harder either, quite the opposite really. Train smarter, not harder.

Nutrition knowledge is just as bad. I had a guy at the gym a couple months ago that said he weighed 180lbs and if he wanted to get to 200lbs all he had to do was increase protein to 200g/day. He said weight loss works the same. Total facepalm moment for me. Also heard a girl at my gym tell her trainer she was going to start doing 100 sit ups and 100 bodyweight squats a day and she was sure that would make her lose weight. No mention of nutrition.



LonelyLurker said:


> Yes I would concur, when people obsess about weight without any idea of composition etc. it just reminds me of people who think your supplements are the key to success.
> 
> Most people who focus on gaining weight (without considering other factors such as LBM) just end up fat and delusional, focus on getting stronger and you'll get results, whatever you weigh is what you weigh. For most people, focus on the results (improvements in strength and/or fitness) and the lifestyle (in terms of nutrition and regular exercise) and you'll get what you want, the weight is largely irrelevant IMO (changes in weight are relevant but not the weight itself, if that makes sense).
> 
> ...


I did the permabulk thing for awhile, lol, was totally fat and delusional at that time. I'm doing my first serious bulk now since I got lean a year and a half ago and the fat gain is definitely getting to me. My plan is long-term though, plus it's winter and winter clothes hide the fat.

Yeah, Brad Pitt was probably 150lbs in Fight Club. No arguing he looked great. Don't have to be huge to look good.

The only reason I worry about weight is that I compete in a weight class. Being under would be a disadvantage. For anyone recreational about fitness it doesn't make much sense to obsess over numbers.


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## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

...well yeah...that's why it's important to carry a beer in one's pack! They taste really good after a long snowy and slushy climb on one's bike!


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

JH1983 said:


> I did the permabulk thing for awhile, lol, was totally fat and delusional at that time. I'm doing my first serious bulk now since I got lean a year and a half ago and the fat gain is definitely getting to me. My plan is long-term though, plus it's winter and winter clothes hide the fat.
> 
> Yeah, Brad Pitt was probably 150lbs in Fight Club. No arguing he looked great. Don't have to be huge to look good.
> 
> The only reason I worry about weight is that I compete in a weight class. Being under would be a disadvantage. For anyone recreational about fitness it doesn't make much sense to obsess over numbers.


I did it too for a few months. :smile2:

Luckily I wasn't delusional (at least I hope I wasn't ), I had plateaued and suspected that it was due to trying to serve two masters simultaneously. So knowing how my brain works I knew I had to just go all in, it worked, I broke through my plateau but the fat gain did bother me.

It certainly wasn't ideal but it was what would work at the time. An imperfect but plausible plan you'll actually stick to will always beat a perfect plan for which you won't.

You're a special case in terms of weight given the competing but even then you're going to want to put on weight that helps you. Although I hear the ideal bf% for power lifting is around 12-14% (this is based on years old memory so could be complete rubbish ) as your joints have more protection. Have you found that to be true?


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## JH1983 (Nov 14, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> I did it too for a few months. :smile2:
> 
> Luckily I wasn't delusional (at least I hope I wasn't ), I had plateaued and suspected that it was due to trying to serve two masters simultaneously. So knowing how my brain works I knew I had to just go all in, it worked, I broke through my plateau but the fat gain did bother me.
> 
> ...


 Man, I had a long reply I was typing up between sets at the gym earlier and accidentally closed my browser and lost it. Anyway, I'd say 12-15% is where you'd want to be for most of the middle weight classes like 181-242lbs. The 165lbs and below you tend to see the guys to be very lean, some sub 10%. The higher weight classes they're a lot higher BF%, like 275-308+.

I don't know about the joints thing, I pretty well felt about the same at 12-13% as 20%+, but I've never been super lean like below 12%. I could see where that could be a possibility. On one hand obviously muscle is preferred to fat when it comes to strength, but when you look at the strongest guys in the world they're almost never lean. I know for bench press having a barrel chest and a fat gut reduces the range of motion enough it makes a huge difference. Think your regular bench compared to a board press with three boards. Or with squat having a huge waist must help stabilize a huge amount of weight. They say for deadlift being fatter is a negative because it interferes with your setup.

For the most part you'd want to be on the leaner side because that means more muscle. Say you were a few weeks out of a meet and you weighed 214lbs. You'd want to put on that six pounds even if it was mostly fat and water because it would help you lift more. Mass moves mass as they say. Or if you cut weight for 24 hour weigh ins you really want to swell up as much as possible in that 24 hours because you will be stronger if you do. And with the unlimited weight class (308+) most of the strongest guys are very fat, so there's obviously something to be said about having the extra fat. Better leverages, shorter ROM, that their bodies are never catabolic because of the excess fat, I don't know for sure. If you're in a weight class though obviously 220lbs at 12% has the potential to be stronger than 220lbs at 25% just by having so much more lean body mass. With the heavier weight classes obviously being 12% would be a pretty incredible feat on its own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

Man, I didn't go Sunday and am too sleepy to go today. ...................


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## Mousey9 (Dec 27, 2012)

Too many walls of text. 


Is OP on a workout routine? or is he just working random muscle groups? does he take consideration on the amount of rest between days so he's not over working them?. 
Also are you getting enough sleep? Make sure that you're sleeping at least 8 hours a day. 

A quick skim shows that you are 5'7 220lbs. Unless you're a power lifter which I highly doubt you are considering the amount of whining in this thread, why are you even trying to gain weight? How long have you been lifting? how much do you bench? you sound like a newbie so being 220lb at 5'7 would look like obesity to me. Cut down to 150-160 and maybe you'll see some muscles if you're actually lifting weights. Then start bulking up to your desired weight. 

Figure out your daily calories maintenance and eat 250-500 less. Make sure you eat at least 160-180 grams of protein and fill the rest with whatever you want. Also, don't do cardio, you're wasting too much energy. You actually lose weight faster through lifting so nut up and lift some heavy *** weights.

I just started lifting two weeks ago, made a workout routine so i'm working every muscle group 2-3 times a week with 48 hours rest before working it again. I'm eating 1-1.3 grams of protein per body weight in pounds everyday. I'm already seeing results aka newbie gains. I also managed to gain 7+ pound during those two weeks since i'm eating 500-1000 calories over my maintenance. This **** ain't rocket science, you're literally picking things up and putting things down lol.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

@JH1983, that's interesting. I found from personal experience that I felt a lot more solid when I was squatting, in fact, even when lean I'd purposefully eat foods that bloated me the day before squat day (I always squatted the day after cheat day). Back then I was using 400+ for my sets and that little wobble in the waist that would sometimes be there disappeared. Kind of like when you took and held that breath and pushed your abs into your belt, you felt like concrete or something. 

Do the lower weight class lifters stay that lean year round or cut weight for the meets?


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## JH1983 (Nov 14, 2013)

LonelyLurker said:


> @JH1983, that's interesting. I found from personal experience that I felt a lot more solid when I was squatting, in fact, even when lean I'd purposefully eat foods that bloated me the day before squat day (I always squatted the day after cheat day). Back then I was using 400+ for my sets and that little wobble in the waist that would sometimes be there disappeared. Kind of like when you took and held that breath and pushed your abs into your belt, you felt like concrete or something.
> 
> Do the lower weight class lifters stay that lean year round or cut weight for the meets?


I'd say it would depend on the rules of their federation with regards to weigh ins. Some do weigh ins right before the meet, some the evening before, and some 24 hours before. If you had 24 hour weigh ins and competed at 165lbs you could realistically be 175-180lbs a few weeks out from your meet. Then cut carbs to reduce water weight maybe ten or so days out, a few days out switch to a liquid diet to get all the undigested food out of your stomach and then the afternoon before weigh ins stop eating or drinking anything. Water and sodium manipulation or sauna suits could be used if necessary as well. Then immediately after weighing in at 165lbs start drinking Pedialyte and eating tons of carbs and sodium. You could be 175-180lbs again by the time you compete the next day. With the shorter weigh in time before a meet you wouldn't want to try cutting much because you'd risk injury by being dehydrated/depleted and performance would suffer almost certainly. I would assume guys in those federations walk around pretty close to contest weight year round.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anxietyconquerer (Dec 11, 2017)

Maybe you just need to find the right nutritionist and lifting coach for you in order to make gains. I don't mean any offence but maybe you're not doing something right...I don't see how weight lifting wouldn't impact your weight in a positive way (weight gain)


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