# Men and Women and Love and Loss, and No Two Planets Are Alike.



## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

I hate that Men are From Mars, Women Are From Venus ****. what a crock.

Oh how i love to over-analyze. These are things I've been thinking about off and on for a few years. I thought I'd share my thoughts on what men do, and what they have to do.

I sure hope none of what i have to say here comes across as condescending or that I'm treating anyone as a charity case.

I think that lately, women like me have become a cultural fad. I've said this before and I still think it. Even though the term "cougar" is supposed to be complimentary, it sounds like I go hunting every night or something, like I'm intentionally predatory. Anyone who knows me personally would tell you that's very far from the truth. People often tell me I don't realize my own worth. At least the term "Sugar Daddy" implies a man has something tangible to offer and that it will be wanted by someone, somewhere. "Cougar" implies that I have some sort of scorecard tucked under my strap-on belt.

So, lately, since I turned 45, for some reason, I'm guessing it's the zeitgeist, men who are way too young for me have come out of the woodwork in several venues and have openly flirted with me and made overtures. Please, please believe me - I don't write this to brag.

Now, I understand there are two sides to this coin.

the first is that this kind of thing is actually good for young men, and I really, really want this noted. They have to learn how to talk to women. it is a rite of passage and one of the most difficult things they have to do. They have to learn how to handle rejection. Those that find this easier than others - why is this so? Well, several factors. I mean, who knows exactly? maybe they had better parents. maybe confidence was somehow instilled in them well, at a young age. maybe it's in their genes, maybe it's to do with their natural disposition. maybe it is down to one specific event which helped them turn a corner. Who can say?

Anyway, my point being, it has to be learned by them at some point, whether that's 8 or 18 or 35. Approaching, opening, asking, rejection or acceptance. it's what they have to do, and I get that. I can't imagine the pressure for many of them, what it must be like.

Here is the other side:
Over the past couple of years, as this has been happening, I've felt more and more like a non-person. I'm a fantasy, never meant to be real, nor acknowledged as such. I'm practice, and I'm "easier" - less threatening.

I'm switching to you, now - a non specific you. I understand that you all *must* do this in order to get on in life and find someone you want to be with, but be careful. perhaps be more reflective in who you choose. I know you can't read minds, but observe more, perhaps, and bear in mind that you are, in fact, talking to a human being. I understand that there's a ration to be considered, that odds matter, but bear in mind that ultimately, what you are doing can be hollow and surface, albeit by necessity.

yes, both men and women can be hollow and careless in intent, but I am talking about *you*.

having said all that, it is also my sincere hope that whoever needs to can make the leap and do what you need and want to do.

for example, I myself have always had a hard time talking to the opposite sex as well. It became clear to me a couple of years ago just how much this affected me during my teen and young adult and even into my adult years, and how much it shaped my life, and how many opportunities I missed out on to learn what's important to me without being damaged by my mistakes.

a couple of weeks ago I approached someone and gave them my number because they had made it plain that they found me attractive. the world did not end, the cosmos did not explode, and I was no less of who I am for it. it was a great lesson to me. did they call? no. I knew they wouldn't. however, I saw them again and spoke to them again regardless. and it was all perfectly fine.

the best thing about all that has happened to me lately and in the past is that I did, eventually, end up learning what is important to me, what has substance, and what matters in order for me to learn to be happy and most of all, _enjoy_ what a good relationship has to offer.

If an old female dog like me can learn to do this stuff, so can you. you who are young, and that's pretty much all of you, you have time on your side. Please don't waste any more it thinking you're not good enough to go after what you want.

I hope this makes sense and is perhaps even helpful. I mean well. Good intentions are sometimes just that - good intentions. ach, maybe this is just a vent.


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

Sure, some younger guys might go for older women because they see them as less of a threat than a woman their own age, but this is the typical behavior of these younger guys. You can't expect them to act like an adult...so try not to take it personally. You can't blame a dog for being a dog, you know what I mean? I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Men don't think as far ahead as women do, when it comes to choosing a partner. Compared to women, we men need self gratification sooner...and if we don't get it, then we're off to find it in someone else.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

thank you for the response. I know that you're right. I'm feeling...very sad about all this. Every time this happens, I'm reminded of how much time I've lost and wasted, and what is no longer possible for me, and of how much was against me when I was struggling so hard during my youth to amount to something and to matter to someone, or ones. or for my feelings to matter.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

actually, I have more. I'm giving myself permission to have a good ol pity party tonight, and then I'm done. 

I read the "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo...." series, and they impressed me. I suppose it's the female anti-hero character that did it - in very few works of fiction is there such a female character who is protrayed not as an ideal so much as a natural human being with a more realistic, human mixture of traits - with a few super-hero abilities thrown in to keep us all, hopefully, interested.

there was one line which really caught my attention. I can't remember if it's in the second or first book. I can only paraphrase:

"her greatest fear was that people would ridicule her feelings". 

Thank you for your respectful response. It means a lot to me, and thanks for not stamping "mid-life crisis" on my forehead.

Oh, and here's one other thing: they all say the same opener - something about admiring me for my intelligence. and i believe them every single time. I'm an idiot.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

EDIT* (because it was some **** that you probably didn't want to hear anyway)

Men are from Mars and Women Venus? This reminds me of something some jackass would say so he could justify his insecure ignorance of women.

If this about your age mainly and you not feeling attractive enough for men then I would say you are still in the game until you die. That is my view anyway. For the most part, it seems illogical to think you can't find someone you like at any given age. You've got a chance as long as your still alive, period.

What is it exactly you are afraid of? Or maybe you just wanted to express yourself?


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

^^ this is interesting. 

I understand that it *has* to be a numbers game. I truly do get that. And I know that the intention is not necessarily to hurt - the intention is to have a chance at all. 

but it seems that in this game, men are left with having to be rejected and having to become emotionally distant in order to not hurt, and women are left only with the choice of having to reject and become emotionally distant in order to do so, and to be hurt because they are simply a number. And I hardly think that any of this matches, man or woman, anyone's true nature. 

this is horrific for us all. i always felt squeamish and awful when it came to dating and all, and now I know this is why. I was too young at the time to be able to put it into words. It all seemed so painful and carnival-like, masky and fake. 

No wonder I never loved anyone, nor married anyone I loved. However, I am also aware that I have cheated myself.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

^^ I suppose I am afraid of being made a fool of again, by my own wants and hopes and dreams. Of not having the strength to say no, this is not what I want. I'm afraid of hurting again, and having to think of all I missed. I'm afraid of dying and having so many regrets that I'm crushed beneath the weight of them. I'm afraid of illusions, too, I suppose. 

I am afraid of not being who I'm meant to be, and not having the time to correct it. all this is tied together in my mind. 

I am afraid of not really living.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm also afraid of not being seen. as me. I've lived with being and feeling invisible all my life, and to have what seems like a concerted segment of the population still not see *me* , after all this time, is a huge disappointment.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

and hey, Bryce - what if, as consumed as the men are with getting in the game so much so that it's all you think about, what if - women are just as consumed with trying to figure out who means and who doesn't? so much so it's all we think about? and we know that because of necessity borne of this game, we are required to be very circumspect about when and with whom we do what we do? 

and those who are more "successful" are just better liars? 

and, who is to fault that? you're pretty intelligent. have you never believed a lie created by someone? 

what about those things? 

It seems to me we're all very much on the same planet, and the planet is fairly stinky.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I understand what you mean about "true nature". It seems so much more natural to be able to just ease into something and say it was meant to be, but ever since I could remember me waiting around for this to happen never manifested and it wasn't until I took charge was I able to change this. We can go after many things in life with expectations of rejection, but then why can't we do the same with people? There is two different sides to this: the first is the idea that things "just happen" and the other idea people try to relate to our evolutionary past saying it is in our nature as men to "penetrate" and compete in many different levels. Who's to say really? All I know is that I see nothing but positives going after what you want, and if their is pain attached to that it is probably because we haven't learned to deal or cope with it to a degree. I think people avoid painful things thinking there SHOULD be an easier way but that way never comes because it was never supposed to be that way. Personally, I can't accept not doing anything because I don't want to look back and feel like I wasted my years either.

I can't really give you a perfect answer because it is a complex one. All I can really say is that you still have a lot of life to live and a lot of joys to be had. Don't count yourself out while your alive. Don't stop living your life while there is so much life to be lived. The struggle sometimes is more satisfying than giving up. Struggle is inevitable but there is always pleasure to be had as well.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

oh no - you deleted a big part of your post. you shouldn't have. It was helpful. I need to hear this stuff from a man's point of view. Women can onlly get together and surmise, based on what would have to be personal bias, never balanced by the opposite sex's personal bias, etc etc.



bwidger85 said:


> EDIT* (because it was some **** that you probably didn't want to hear anyway)
> 
> Men are from Mars and Women Venus? This reminds me of something some jackass would say so he could justify his insecure ignorance of women.
> 
> ...


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

Well said. It is true I did *not* learn to handle emotion well. I'm trying, even now, and this is part of that, I think.

thank you for the pep talk - it really is much appreciated. If you have more to say, I look forward to reading it, I really do.

I think part of my problem is that I never learned the satisfaction of winning - gaining what I have strived for. I mean, like never.



bwidger85 said:


> I understand what you mean about "true nature". It seems so much more natural to be able to just ease into something and say it was meant to be, but ever since I could remember me waiting around for this to happen never manifested and it wasn't until I took charge was I able to change this. We can go after many things in life with expectations of rejection, but then why can't we do the same with people? There is two different sides to this: the first is the idea that things "just happen" and the other idea people try to relate to our evolutionary past saying it is in our nature as men to "penetrate" and compete in many different levels. Who's to say really? All I know is that I see nothing but positives going after what you want, and if their is pain attached to that it is probably because we haven't learned to deal or cope with it to a degree. I think people avoid painful things thinking there SHOULD be an easier way but that way never comes because it was never supposed to be that way. Personally, I can't accept not doing anything because I don't want to look back and feel like I wasted my years either.
> 
> I can't really give you a perfect answer because it is a complex one. All I can really say is that you still have a lot of life to live and a lot of joys to be had. Don't count yourself out while your alive. Don't stop living your life while there is so much life to be lived. The struggle sometimes is more satisfying than giving up. Struggle is inevitable but there is always pleasure to be had as well.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

mmmm, but for one possible exception. maybe two.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

leonardess said:


> and hey, Bryce - what if, as consumed as the men are with getting in the game so much so that it's all you think about, what if - women are just as consumed with trying to figure out who means and who doesn't? so much so it's all we think about? and we know that because of necessity borne of this game, we are required to be very circumspect about when and with whom we do what we do?
> 
> and those who are more "successful" are just better liars?
> 
> ...


Lol. I'm not gonna lie, I don't really understand your question, but if you are meaning to say women may also be obsessed with the same things, then I wouldn't argue with that. Once again, I don't deny women are very similar to men and we are all human.

Once again, I don't think women or men are necessarily stuck in the roles society or themselves put themselves in. Most women would approach a man they really wanted if given enough confidence and also had the opportunity, but I do think men are coming from a different kind of playing field in society with women having a higher choice when it comes to dating, but things seem to level out in other areas as well. If women started to approach men all the time then men would be put in the position women are... I mean, for whatever reason, it is what it is and so with is what men and women have to work with. Still, EVERYONE can be empowered by developing the skills and confidence to be able to approach anyone anywhere they wanted, so I don't care if I had women throwing themselves at me...if the women weren't what I wanted and I have to approach other women then I would. In my opinion women should also be approaching if they aren't satisfied, but that is on them to make that call. I have no preference with who approaches who...I just know I'm better off going after what I want confidently and consistently.

Regardless if someone lies or not, I'll listen to someone to motivate me if I want to do something. For the most part, you show me something you can do and if I believe I can gain from that then I'll listen and try it out for myself. Me experimenting with dating is my own proof of what REALLY is the case or what isn't, and in the end I'll make that judgement. Thankfully, I am under the impression that it is very possible. The more I do it the more I am convinced this is the case as well..I would simply like to add upon this experience though. I also see nothing wrong with being progressive about your goals even if you've never achieved them yet because it is a hell of a lot better than doing nothing, and if one of the successful liars leads me astray, well, at least I know how a better path to follow, but I won't know it until I try. Why not be optimistic and try and prove it to yourself instead of dismissing it with no evidence?


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

leonardess said:


> oh no - you deleted a big part of your post. you shouldn't have. It was helpful. I need to hear this stuff from a man's point of view. Women can onlly get together and surmise, based on what would have to be personal bias, never balanced by the opposite sex's personal bias, etc etc.


Basically, I approach women to learn and to prove to myself things. But obviously that doesn't mean I don't want to respect or honor women either. I am very aware that I am highly susceptible to falling in love when I least expect it. It's true men and women can be susceptible to certain lies companies try to pitch to people, but sometimes people need to experience these lies to see how dysfunctional it is. For me, this is what happened. I don't follow manipulation tactics or power control struggles. I think a healthy relationship is by far more important than anything else. But once again, I do this because I feel it will benefit me greatly.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

I really want to thank you for spending the time and effort to put your thoughts down like this. 

I feel much better about all this today, and a lot of what you say makes sense. My attitude needed adjustment, and you have helped me do that. 

It occurred to me, if there are similarities between men and women in this particular arena, then I could approach these matters with the best parts of the same attitude that men try to adopt - not treating every occasion as a life and death matter, a direct reflection of my own self worth, etc etc etc. and instead view all this as a learning experience. 

such a simple solution, and yet I forget these things. which actually kind of makes sense if one doesn't learn them as a natural progression of growing up, adolescence, young adulthood and on, and I certainly didn't have a "normal" family life. so that explains that. 

thanks again for getting my brain juices flowing.


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

leonardess said:


> thank you for the response. I know that you're right. I'm feeling...very sad about all this. Every time this happens, I'm reminded of how much time I've lost and wasted, and what is no longer possible for me, and of how much was against me when I was struggling so hard during my youth to amount to something and to matter to someone, or ones. or for my feelings to matter.





leonardess said:


> actually, I have more. I'm giving myself permission to have a good ol pity party tonight, and then I'm done.
> 
> I read the "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo...." series, and they impressed me. I suppose it's the female anti-hero character that did it - in very few works of fiction is there such a female character who is protrayed not as an ideal so much as a natural human being with a more realistic, human mixture of traits - with a few super-hero abilities thrown in to keep us all, hopefully, interested.
> 
> ...


...but this isn't your fault. How can it be? These guys who say this to you, most likely say the same exact thing to other women. It's an extremely sleezy approach, because it's easy for the other person to believe(who doesn't want to be noted for their intelligence?) and the person is starting off relations with a lie. Someone like that...doesn't have an opinion I'd care anything about, that's for sure. Consider the source. My .02 is: Someones opinion of me is equal to how important they are to me. A manipulative liar...is of no importance to me, and that includes their opinion.

btw...midlife crisis didn't even enter my mind. I don't see any problem with feeling this way. Cheer up Leo! :banana


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

thanks jsgt! I know, I know - this is what they do and they wouldn't do it if it didn't work. Of course it wouldn't bother me so much if they had some sort of early warning system beyond their control, like an unformed twin in the middle of their foreheads whose tiny mouth would open and close much like a trout, while their own mouths lied. Then I would know - if unformed twin is trying to talk, punch the other mouth. or something.

I feel that at my age, I should automatically know what these guys are about. Again, I understand they're all bunged up with the hormones, like a rabid pack of some extremely horny things and will try to hit up anything that looks even remotely hittable. but still.

thanks again - I _am_ trying to lighten up. and now I can stop buying all that damn sugary coffee.



jsgt said:


> ...but this isn't your fault. How can it be? These guys who say this to you, most likely say the same exact thing to other women. It's an extremely sleezy approach, because it's easy for the other person to believe(who doesn't want to be noted for their intelligence?) and the person is starting off relations with a lie. Someone like that...doesn't have an opinion I'd care anything about, that's for sure. Consider the source. My .02 is: Someones opinion of me is equal to how important they are to me. A manipulative liar...is of no importance to me, and that includes their opinion.
> 
> btw...midlife crisis didn't even enter my mind. I don't see any problem with feeling this way. Cheer up Leo! :banana


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I wouldn't be so quick to judge all men alike given their age. Also, I see nothing wrong with being intelligent. Even if it was a lie, there are other men of any age who I'm sure would be head over heels for you. I'm not bull****ting either. I'm not one for sugaring up anything. Imagine what I'd be like for a man my age to give up after each rejection? I guarantee you I get much more rejections than you could fathom. Incredibly, I've also learned to deal with it and not take it as such a big deal because I know eventually I'll sink one, two, three....etc...all my life if need be.


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## jsgt (Jun 26, 2011)

Yeah, or a big flashing sign appears over their head that says "I'm lying!". I like the twin idea better, because you could stuff a balled up sock in it's mouth...and hope the other mouth would shut up too. :lol

Don't be so hard on yourself. It's ok to want something so bad that you will believe whatever you have to, in order to make it come true. It shows passion. Sad that people will prey on the emotions of others, but as you said...this world is a stinky place. All you can do is put a clothespin on your nose and keep playing the game(if you want to play, that is).


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

Oh, I know - generalizations are just that, generalizations, and there are always plenty of exceptions to be found. and, of course, I'd rather be intelligent than not - I've worked hard to believe that I am and I do believe I am, and no one else's opinion can change that. It just frustrates me that it's simply a line and nothing more.

I do understand what you're saying - what kind of person would you be if you never went after things that you want for yourself and in your life? Of course you should go after them with whatever means you deem necessary and best for you. And, it's fantastic that you've learned to deal with rejection in this way, because it will stand you in good stead in so many other areas of your life. Being able to handle rejection and disappointment and move on to other things is absolutely necessary to live a good, satisfying life.

I'd pose this question to you, Mr. Bryce - when you approach, how often do you do so with the actual intent of following through with a phone call, a date, meeting for coffee or what have you?



bwidger85 said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to judge all men alike given their age. Also, I see nothing wrong with being intelligent. Even if it was a lie, there are other men of any age who I'm sure would be head over heels for you. I'm not bull****ting either. I'm not one for sugaring up anything. Imagine what I'd be like for a man my age to give up after each rejection? I guarantee you I get much more rejections than you could fathom. Incredibly, I've also learned to deal with it and not take it as such a big deal because I know eventually I'll sink one, two, three....etc...all my life if need be.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

haha - well, the twin is there to tell you what you need to know, but it can only mouth the words - the poor thing hasn't got vocal chords. Okay, I'll lay off the weird twin thing now.

It's funny you brought up passion - I've been feeling lately like this is near dead in me now. I used to feel so much more passionate about everything even up to just two years ago, but some hard knocks seem to have killed it. I'm hoping that if I can manage to put things in perspective, I'll get some of that back. this loss of passion seems to have translated to other areas of my life, and it worries me.



jsgt said:


> Yeah, or a big flashing sign appears over their head that says "I'm lying!". I like the twin idea better, because you could stuff a balled up sock in it's mouth...and hope the other mouth would shut up too. :lol
> 
> Don't be so hard on yourself. It's ok to want something so bad that you will believe whatever you have to, in order to make it come true. It shows passion. Sad that people will prey on the emotions of others, but as you said...this world is a stinky place. All you can do is put a clothespin on your nose and keep playing the game(if you want to play, that is).


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## identitycrisis (Sep 18, 2011)

Thanks for posting all this leonardess, just reading this thread has given me a lot to think about. For some reason - even though there's a thousand threads on this forum from folks talking about very private matters - this feels like the most... _intimate_ thread I've read. It's a little jarring, I feel like I'm reading your diary.

As long as I can remember, I've been trying to make that "leap" you mentioned in your first post. I often make tentative steps toward it, but it feels like a leap of faith; I'm afraid of not being caught, of failing and falling to rock bottom. The fear is too powerful a force. It comes at me from all kinds of different angles, different directions, and I can't seem to fight it. I'm afraid of rejection, I'm afraid of being alone, I'm afraid of failing... but most of all, at the end of the day, like you, I'm afraid of not having lived. I think sometimes about what would happen if I was told I only had months to live, cancer or something. What would I do? Would facing down my own mortality force me out of my stagnation and make me run out to do all the things I want to do before I die? Or would my fear of making the "leap" overcome my fear of death?

I can be as forward-thinking as I like, but that doesn't make me forward-moving. I can sit here and make excuses for myself, that I'm not ready for a relationship, that I just need a better job, that I should make some friends first, that I'm not attractive enough or rich enough, that it's my social anxiety's fault... but they're just excuses, even if some of them are pretty good ones. Deep down, I've accepted that I'm just afraid of asking a woman out; however, the fear is less about being rejected by one person, and more about that person laughing at how ridiculous I am for thinking I ever had a chance, that an ugly, boring loser like me thought he might someday be loved.

How does one fight that thinking? There's no manual or ten-step process for disproving irrational thoughts, or for dispelling the fear that it might not be irrational after all.

I think the truth is that there is no solution. I can't change my deepest fears. I can't change what others think about me, or how they react to me. The only way I've ever made any progress is by doing. I used to be afraid of making phone calls to people I didn't know. I still am. The only way I've gotten past it is to stop thinking and make the call. Throwing myself into a situation where it's too late to save myself. I hope someday I can face down _all_ of my fears in this manner.

I'm not sure if this has any relevance to your situation - or if it's the least bit comprehensible as it's 1 in the morning - but I hope it's at least given a little bit of perspective from the planet Mars. You can't change how any man, young or old, approaches you, or what they think of you. It's possible the younger ones see you as less intimidating, or think they have a greater chance of success with you, but there's nothing you can do about how they think.

Just have hope. Your life isn't over. At 45, you're just as capable of loving - and capable of being loved - as you were at 25.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

leonardess said:


> I'd pose this question to you, Mr. Bryce - when you approach, how often do you do so with the actual intent of following through with a phone call, a date, meeting for coffee or what have you?


When I first started off dating I would date girls I wasn't really into or attracted to. Obviously it never lasted but it seemed like they were the only ones who'd give me a chance. I also had little to no reference experiences to say my limits, etc., which is yet another reason I keep pushing myself. I am beginning to realize those limits though, and they are lesser than I once thought. I was missing things and knowledge and experience to say otherwise.

Now, however, I only go after who I find attractive. They don't have to be perfect physically. I often view the "perfect" physical social-idea a bit exaggerated because those girls are often dolled up and it is almost a superficiality I don't like about it. I prefer more natural girls. With that said, I USUALLY approach girls I'm attracted to, and if I do it is always because I want to date them or see them again. This doesn't garantee that either of us will or won't like each other though, and I also realize that. The first waves of dating someone is all about finding out if you two mesh. It is never out the clear. Even the expectation of long term relationships are low-standing mainly because I am not looking for a wife and so it is nearly inevitable at some point, unless I fall madly in love (may happen), we will split and it will hurt. I just recently made that a clear distinction. Then again, they say love is blind sometimes, so I may just want to date a girl briefly and she may end up as my wife later down the road. My recent girlfriend I didn't expect to be with this long but her personality wowed me and I admired and appreciated her even more--I didn't want to let her go, but she had to move to finish her MA.

I won't deny though, I've been under the impression of purely sexual promiscuity. But who hasn't at one point? Also, once again, I now realize I am very susceptible to fall for one girl when I least expect it, so even if I was only wanting sex, I could learn more about the girl and appreciate her more and before you know it I'm head over heels for her. Sex is cool and everything but it's just sex if there is no real connection or if the two of you have nothing in common. If that is the case then naturally it wasn't meant to be anyway, and the distinction between someone who "sleeps around" is somewhat blurred if that "promiscuous" person cannot find true chemistry with someone over and over again. Honestly, there are many ways to look at this situation. Currently, I am more in it to learn how to meet women and feel confident and competent and also prove certain things to myself. There is so much to learn that I feel I'd be silly to marry the first girl I get into a relationship with. Also realize that my relationship experience only goes as far as 6 months with a woman I have truly had good chemistry with. Everything before that was dating experience with most the girls not being what I really wanted, and before that I simply got dumped all the time by the girls who would rarely approach me. I think now you can understand why experiencing more for me is so important.

Both men and women make the choice to be sexual active or not, so don't kid yourself. The idea that women aren't that way is a lie, and the reason either men or women seek/approach dating/relationships is for different reasons. However, I personally believe that women, once again, have more choice, especially during a certain age period, for reasons that may go beyond gender courtship roles. Therefore, it makes me think that women CAN have sex with a multiple choice relatively easy if they wanted to. Everyone wants what they don't have already, so this means that if a woman has sexual choice then she'll likely want relationships and connections because this is harder to come by. Why is it harder to come by for women? I think it is because men do NOT have the selection of sexual freedom women do. As any man, unless he is seriously, SERIOUSLY confident and persistent, will he say he as an abundant choice of women who he generally finds attraction of which he can have sex with with little or no effort. This reality is simply not the same with men. Therefore, added the "pursuer" mentality men are biologically and socially primed for, AND being more sexually frustrated, they will naturally want to have more sex and less connection compared to a woman. However, eventually all men want something more because it is human nature to pair bond. I think most men are seemingly more promiscuous if given the opportunity because, first, they don't have the sexual abundance and ease most women do; secondly, it is in our nature biologically to penetrate all the way into the bedroom (from approach to sex), and therefore we probably are driven more to make sex happen; thirdly, men are given praise for doing so, I think, because it is such a challenging thing to do consistently as a bachelor (for most). Women are scorned in our society for promiscuity because it is EASIER and thus less respected when taken advantage of; for men, harder, and thus rewarded behavior in some cases, especially men who have little sexual experience. There are probably other reasons to, like men who never learned to meet women and are therefore sexually suppressed most of their lives until late rin life when they learn how to meet women. Look at people like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant for example, never before they became famous, rich and adored for their fame and status would they likely have the CHANCE to have the opportunity to have so many women swoon over them. It makes sense to me they are trying to take advantage of their status while they can! It doesn't make it right however, and many famous men probably don't cheat either, but these are simply examples.

So keep these things in mind. I have yet found a women who is out about in the world and of whom is SOMEWHAT attractive not have her choice with sexual abundance. Compare that to a man given even a higher level of physical appeal, he still doesn't compare!

But simply put, men literally HAVE to learn this stuff to a degree. If we don't then we take it by chance in a world that expects us NOT to take it by chance. Some guys can get lucky and not do much and have women throw themselves at them, but this doesn't happen as much as some people think, especially given how women flirt with men--they are not exactly being very direct or aggressive in their approach; wanting the man who doesn't approach to approach, so she basically assumes a man isn't into her when in fact he could be BAD at being direct and taking charge, and therefore he's not worthy or "ignores" her. Think about that **** for a second....

Not only is it a way of passage for men, but it is usually required. Women don't have to push as hard or risk so much rejection because of their position; however, STILL I don't discourage them from doing what men do and approach anyway. They simply don't have to in the way most men have to. Being the chooser (women), the risk far less rejection compared to someone who pursues and takes that gamble consistently (men). Yet another reason why I feel I need to gain competence.

People who look at men or women who approach at bars or stores or wherever and label those people "weird" or "creepy" simply do not understand the personal strength it takes to do such a thing! Usually people judge negatively because they don't understand, haven't experienced or are jealous of this. It makes NO SENSE to me why people don't do it more often. I don't judge people anymore for approaching strangers--I used to when I was an idiot and ignorant--but now I say, "Good for him/her! That takes balls! And that person is probably stronger than anyone else in the room AND they go for what they want in the face of rejection and social norms!" It takes one hell of a strong mofo to do that type of thing consistently! I should know. I think people who judge others negatively for this need a ****ing reality check and are for the most part are being unfair and ignorant, especially toward men.

I would like to make one more distinction here: when I said in an earlier post I get rejected more than you could fathom, this isn't entirely true because I don't approach like a maniac in real life. I simply haven't reach that level of consistency to say whether it is worth it or not. In the last 4 months I've approached only 26 girls. Probably slightly less than half gave me their numbers. Most don't go any further than that because they won't allow it. 26 approaches in 4 months is NOTHING. Online (POF) is absurd and I gave that up. That **** is so one-sided it is insane. I think men who approach in real life are facing a more realistic rejection-rate. I have yet questioned my 26 approaches in real life being "unfair" like I do online because to me they do not compare. But then again, some guys do well online for w/e reason. It ain't my thing. If I was to give a good approach-rate for someone like me in 4 months I would probably triple the number of approaches from 26 to 78 approaches. Also realize that the main reason why I haven't approached much is a) I'm learning to control my inner-self 2) lack of oppotnities 3) infrequent dates and 6 month "relationship" 4) lack of time (school/work) 4) motivation...etc.... I should be at 78 approaches in four months.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Older women rock--but sometimes men and women do come from two completely different places.


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## pythonesque (Jun 16, 2012)

Thank you, leonardess, for making this thread. I really appreciate the amount of thought that every poster in here has put into their responses. And something you said earlier:



leonardess said:


> It all seemed so painful and carnival-like, masky and fake.


just ... struck a chord. I don't know what chord and where, but it did. I haven't dated very much for my age and in a way all my views about the dating scene, and love, and marriage, are all still so abstract and vicarious and based on theory. But yet I feel it so keenly when others talk about love and loss. Goodness knows where it's all coming from..



bwidger85 said:


> When I first started off dating I would date girls I wasn't really into or attracted to. Obviously it never lasted but it seemed like they were the only ones who'd give me a chance. I also had little to no reference experiences to say my limits, etc., which is yet another reason I keep pushing myself. I am beginning to realize those limits though, and they are lesser than I once thought. I was missing things and knowledge and experience to say otherwise.


I'm so conflicted over this. Sometimes I wonder if I should date guys whom I'm not interested in for "practice" so I can gain the experience and confidence I'll need to make it work with the ones I _am_ into. Part of me feels like I need that; another part of me feels like it's cruel - I mean, if someone I was into really likes me for me, chances are he wouldn't mind me inexperience, and maybe he would even find it endearing...?

But more and more I'm starting to wonder if ethics is not even the problem. Maybe this whole "kissing frogs" thing just doesn't work for me. I've dated guys whom I wasn't the least bit attracted to, with the hopes that they would eventually grow on me. Turns out they didn't. But even then, I was still the same neurotic wreck I always am. It's as if simply _knowing_ that I'm pursuing a romantic relationship is enough to put me off my game (not that i had one to begin with, lol). It doesn't matter whether I like the guy or not. Regardless of how I feel about him, if he doesn't end up wanting to be with me after getting to know me, then I would have failed in some way already. Because it's a dating situation, and I haven't accomplished what I set out to do.

Stupid entitled thinking, I know. But I can't seem to stop myself. It's like identitycrisis said a couple of posts above mine - there's no failsafe method for changing one's thought processes. You're the only one who can change the way you think. It's all so circular; and futile.

PS. Sorry for all this negativity. I don't really know how to end this post on a positive note. :\


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

pythonesque said:


> Thank you, leonardess, for making this thread. I really appreciate the amount of thought that every poster in here has put into their responses. And something you said earlier:
> 
> just ... struck a chord. I don't know what chord and where, but it did. I haven't dated very much for my age and in a way all my views about the dating scene, and love, and marriage, are all still so abstract and vicarious and based on theory. But yet I feel it so keenly when others talk about love and loss. Goodness knows where it's all coming from..
> 
> ...


The thing is, dating is perilous but also rewarding. I think we forget that it is both if we stick with it and perhaps stop taking it so offensively. What happens when you find someone you really like and they like you? We tend to only focus on the rejection and failures. It is said that people would rather avoid pain over seeking pleasure.

I'd advise to only go after the guys you are attracted to for w/e reason. They don't have to be your perfect 10s but they have to fall under your category of someone you'd date and be attracted to in some way. The main reason I dated girls who I wasn't into was because I felt I didn't have any other option at the time and wanted to explore.


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## pythonesque (Jun 16, 2012)

I'd say I'm one of those people who would rather avoid pain than seek pleasure. The things is, how do you convince yourself that the pleasure is worth the pain, when you've never even experienced it?


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

pythonesque said:


> I'd say I'm one of those people who would rather avoid pain than seek pleasure. The things is, how do you convince yourself that the pleasure is worth the pain, when you've never even experienced it?


That is a really good question. I can only speak for myself, but I inspire myself with mentors (typically online). I also try to focus on the positives of it all (the learning, growing, positive people, experiences, etc.). You need something to aim for or to look forward to. If you don't have any idea what you want or what to aim for then you need to find that. Once you do you need to explore to find out. Along the way try to stay motivated by looking at the positives and also have references for motivation (books, mentors/coaches, etc). Pain is also a good motivation. I know without a doubt that not experiencing something when I had the chance and missing out is often more painful than experiencing it. I also understand that personal growth is what makes me happy. When I don't challenge my fears or limits and stay stagnate I get bored and also sad if I'm not satisfied with my position in life. I think change is very important.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

For the record, I see the line drawn at 50. That's when someone becomes middle age to me.

40's is the new 30's.

Anyway, I am not one to talk, because I am turning 30 in two months. I would just appreciate someone giving me their time, although generally I don't view someone who's older as someone who's on the same wavelength as me. I have more in common with a 19 year old than a 29 year old.


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## ravens (Aug 31, 2011)

I'm 41 and I'm always finding myself attracted to women who are in their 20's to 30. I don't feel like I'm in my 40's. I guess that's because I've never been in a relationship and being a virgin. 

I look at them and think that she's cute and then I'll realize the she's probably in her 20's and I feel like a creep. One time a girl that was probably around 20 or so was staring at me in a store as I was walking by. I started to get real nervous and then I thought that I'm too old for her.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I generally am more attracted to 18 and 19 year olds, which is typical, since I look young for my age.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

this is turning into an excellent discussion, people. I hope it keeps going. you all have given me a lot to think about, so much so I feel I need something like a day to absorb it all and cogitate. So that's what I'll do and when I return i'll have plenty to say, I think.

there are some real eye opening points of view here. 

and as for this being intimate, well, I kind of had to be in order to get the in depth feedback I was hoping for. I can't expect others to really share if I don't myself. I wanted to be very honest about what was going on inside my head because it's been troubling me deeply for some time.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

identitycrisis said:


> .... I'm afraid of not being caught, of failing and falling to rock bottom. The fear is too powerful a force. It comes at me from all kinds of different angles, different directions, and I can't seem to fight it. I'm afraid of rejection, I'm afraid of being alone, I'm afraid of failing... but most of all, at the end of the day, like you, I'm afraid of not having lived. ........


I forgot another basic, very large fear, and see if this puts any kind of new twist on it for you -

I'm afraid of my life. I'm afraid of how it is turning out and has turned out. I'm afraid of running out of time. I'm afraid of regrets and what I didn't do. I'm afraid of living with what I have now.

these two basic fears - the fear of not having lived and the fear of living my life as I have lived it. the fear of each is of equal measure.

Finding a way of tipping the balance may be the trick.



identitycrisis said:


> Just have hope. Your life isn't over. At 45, you're just as capable of loving - and capable of being loved - as you were at 25.


thanks for that wonderful thought. the pessimist in me would say "but I _wasn't_ loved at 25 either", but the optimist in me won't let the pessimist.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

pythonesque said:


> Thank you, leonardess, for making this thread. I really appreciate the amount of thought that every poster in here has put into their responses. And something you said earlier:
> 
> just ... struck a chord. I don't know what chord and where, but it did. I haven't dated very much for my age and in a way all my views about the dating scene, and love, and marriage, are all still so abstract and vicarious and based on theory. But yet I feel it so keenly when others talk about love and loss. Goodness knows where it's all coming from..
> 
> I'm so conflicted over this. Sometimes I wonder if I should date guys whom I'm not interested in for "practice" so I can gain the experience and confidence I'll need to make it work with the ones I _am_ into....... :\


you're welcome and you betcha.

I feel very much the way you feel, and have felt very much the way you do. it did feel very masky and fake at the time, but it could be that i was focusing too much on the general crowd and not enough on those who were "different", at that time in my life.

I remember a particularly carnival-like event. I chose, for some reason on this particular day, to sit in the middle of the campus - where the "big people on campus" tended to congregate. it was four benches butted into a square, with a tree in the middle. sunny day - I lived in California at the time. As usual, I had a book with me and sat on one of the benches to read. No one was around to disturb me and I was content.

Eventually I heard voices near me and was extremely disappointed to realize that there were some guys - some of the big men on campus (*everyone* knew of them) - actually standing on the three benches behind me. I hated it. they began to jump from bench to bench, always behind me but of course I could feel it. They were talking amongst themselves while jump - jump - jumping. I heard one say, "here she comes". I then heard a girl begin to talk to one of the boys: "I didn't do it!" "that's not what happened" the boy's reply was dismissive. the girl began to cry. her friends had accompanied her over to the benches. I almost heard a calliope begin to play, I swear it. She continued to try to impress him with the fact that he was mistaken. He continued to dismiss her. She eventually wandered away, her friends trailing after her.

he and his friends had been jumping from bench to bench during this whole exchange. After she left, the boy who was the recipient of her repeated entreaties declared to his friends, "these *****es think they can get away with anything".

I heard that and I remember feeling very sad about it. I replied in my head that I would *never* do whatever it was she had done, then I thought that didn't matter at all, none of them would even look at me. And then I felt distaste, both for the boys and the girls. If this is the way it's done, I thought, I want no part of it.

Of course, with hindsight, i realize they were kids and I was a kid too, but it made a huge impression on me. it may have shaped how I think about these matters for the rest of my life and that coupled with other undeniable influences from my growing up years has given me much strife about all this. So, I guess what i'm saying is, that is the generation of my own chord which is also struck when I read or see certain things.

I also feel these things keenly, and I wish I didn't, or was more resilient, or something.



pythonesque said:


> ....Goodness knows where it's all coming from..
> 
> .... I mean, if someone I was into really likes me for me, chances are he wouldn't mind me inexperience, and maybe he would even find it endearing...?
> 
> .... :\


Well, I don't think how someone else feels about your experience or inexperience really enters into it. by that I mean, in order to go after the kind of relationship you want, you will *have* to get involved with other people, and so you're going to acquire some kind of experience as a natural or inevitable, rather, consequence of doing that. very few people walk out their front doors, go into town, and immediately see "the one" they're going to be with for any length of time without having to bother with dating, having a significant other for a while, etc etc.

i'm beginning to see that you have to start *somewhere*, and I too worried very much about the "trying people on" meaning that I was shallow, or cruel. but that's not really what it's about - unless of course you are systematically and intentionally going after people you actually believe to be beneath ( no pun intended) you.

People who do this are actually doing one of two things or a combination of them:

1. they simply want the sexual gratification without any ties
2. they want an ego stroke
3. they are still very afraid to pursue the kinds of people they actually do want, and are all the things that can go along with that - afraid of rejection, actually falling in love with that person who meets their real wants and needs and getting hurt.

So far, I seriously doubt any poster in this thread is about any of that, and that includes you and me.

the fact remains, as Bryce has pointed out, that you need to start somewhere to learn what it is you really want out of a relationship and what kind of person you eventually want to be with. I suppose that's what's referred to as experience - learning those things, which each of us has to do. Also, we need to learn how to act in a relationship - sort of learn to treat a potential significant other in the way we ourselves want to be treated.

so, if that means learning those things with someone who is less intimidating to you, then I suppose that's what's necessary. you learn how to talk to the opposite sex, you learn the essential differences and what you really like and what you can tolerate. etc.

but if it's just a booty call, well, that's something else entirely. I suppose that's part of all this - learning what's a superficial thing and what isn't, and how possibly to steer clear if that's not what you want. This is the part I hate the most.

I think Bryce mentioned something about this too - I have to be careful because my feelings are sensitive - but I also have a tendency to get involved in relationships that pose no risk to me. I've played it safe and the rewards are beggarly at best. I've gotten pretty hurt once or twice, but I lacked the emotional maturity to handle the pain and put it in perspective and move on. only with much hindsight did I realize that having those situations end was the best thing for me. And so, those are things that come with allowing yourself to experience relationships and dating and so on. that is how you learn, along with the other things, how to handle the pain of loss and how to move on, with your sense of self worth intact. It's very hard because after all, we're talking pain, serious pain here at times. But that's life - love and loss. We've all *got* to learn to deal with it, or you'll never learn how to pursue what you really want for yourself, and you'll never get what you really want.

Well, i've blathered on long enough, bejeebus.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

Bryce said: "men are given praise for doing so, I think, because it is such a challenging thing to do consistently as a bachelor (for most). Women are scorned in our society for promiscuity because it is EASIER and thus less respected when taken advantage of; for men, harder, and thus rewarded behavior in some cases, especially men who have little sexual experience."

My mind is blown. Never have I seen this idea, this concept, so succinctly expressed. I'd change one thing: for men, harder, and thus rewarded behavior in "most" cases.

So, is the flip side also true? Women are rewarded for managing to create a family and long lasting bond because it is HARDER, and men are ridiculed for doing the same because it is EASIER due to the fact that women are biologically driven to create a nest, fill it with young, etc and a man willing to commit can have his pick? is in high demand?

I don't know for sure, but it would certainly explain a lot of things.

Also, what you've said about your recent relationship and your girlfriend having to move away to finish her MA.

I have had a tough time with realizing that love, or at least the potential of it, does not stop life. I used to think people who "walked away" (for that is how I viewed it) from a good relationship were crazy. I used to think that if I were lucky enough to find something like that, I would do anything I had to to keep it. However, I am realizing and trying to accept that people need to get on with their lives, realize their ambitions, pursue other things.

I am one who has a very hard time with people leaving and goodbyes in general.

these things are easier to deal with though, as long as you keep in the forefront of your own mind what you really want for yourself and your own life. As you say, you are not looking for a wife and it's important to remember what it is you are after and what you are and are not ready for. I've screwed this up very badly in the past.

I do appreciate what you have to do and what you have to go through in pursuit of what you want. what you said earlier about people judging those who approach and ask for a number or what have you - I certainly don't judge it and I understand it, because it *does* take a massive amount of balls!

I gave my number to someone not that long ago and I was a nervous wreck. I thought about it for days beforehand, to near obsession. I was certain nothing would result from it, but i knew I had to do it because I'd _never _done anything like that before in all my years, and I was determined to do something different this time. and it was fine. i did not implode, my hair did not catch on fire, the world did not stop spinning.


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## identitycrisis (Sep 18, 2011)

leonardess said:


> I forgot another basic, very large fear, and see if this puts any kind of new twist on it for you -
> 
> I'm afraid of my life. I'm afraid of how it is turning out and has turned out. I'm afraid of running out of time. I'm afraid of regrets and what I didn't do. I'm afraid of living with what I have now.


It's not a new twist for me; I'll explain why, but I'll have to blather on about myself some more 

I didn't mention that particular fear because I don't have it at this point in time. It's wasn't until you mentioned it here that I realized I don't. Rewinding about four years, I was in college with severe clinical depression. I didn't have any friends at all, I was living at home, and I hadn't had a job in the four years before this. And I knew, deep down, that I would not be able to have a career out of what I was studying. I wasn't good at it, and I didn't have the social networking skills necessary to be able to find work when I graduated (thanks SA).

My sister lived at home with me and my folks, she's two years older than I am. She dropped out of college, she spends _all_ her free time on her computer, she works maybe 10-12 hours a week making dough at a pizza place where she doesn't have to talk to anybody... I saw all these things about her, and saw myself in the reflection. And I could not be that person. I could not become someone who leeches off others in order to survive. I could not be the person who stays alone in their parents' house forever. I was so deep in despair that I couldn't see the end, and had no one I could talk to about it: my sister wouldn't talk about it, I couldn't talk to either of my other siblings, my parents do not fully understand mental illness... I didn't see a way out.

So I attempted suicide. I survived, obviously, and without permanent damage. After a couple days in the ICU and a week's stay in the psych ward, I was back out in the world and nothing had really changed. Or had it? I didn't notice it at the time, but the scales had tipped slightly. I finished my degree and graduated in two more years. Which left me at the biggest fork in my life's road: do I become my sister, or can I find the courage to become something more?

I have another sister, much older, who at this point I hadn't spoken to in years (our last conversation boiled down to her saying "Social anxiety isn't real, stop making up excuses, believe in Jesus."). My dad suggested that I fly out to Seattle and live with her and her family. It threw me for a loop, but it made sense. This was the step to take. It was leaving everything I knew over 23 years for the complete unknown, but I knew that this might be my only chance. This is when I realized that something had changed, that my thirst to live had overcome my fear of what happens if my life goes wrong. My sister and I mended fences. I took a one-way ticket out of town.

Long story short, I got a retail job to tide me over, still struggled some with depression, got out on my own, and then something else happened. I was confused and unfocused in what to do with my career, and then I saw an ambulance drive by in Seattle. Something clicked. I set my degree on the shelf and pursued a new career in EMS. I got my EMT certification a couple months ago.

I went through all of that story to help illustrate the point: I'm not afraid of my life anymore. It's strange - I'm _excited_ for the possibilities. I know I haven't gotten anywhere yet, I know it's going to be hard, getting my foot in the door in the medical field is proving to be difficult, but... this time, I know it's going to happen. When it came down to facing this fear, when it was either make "the leap" or fall, I made the leap.

I'm glad you brought this up, because it's making me think. What if I can do this for my other fears?

What if _you_ can?

I don't think age even needs to enter into the discussion. It might just come down to doing something that might seem crazy, like taking a one-way ticket to a new city or closing the door on six years worth of college. At best, you've done something you never thought possible, and it's life-changing. At worst, you've screwed up so bad you can't save yourself, but you're probably no worse off than you were before.

Either way, you've learned something valuable about yourself. And that knowledge can change _everything._


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

identitycrisis said:


> It's not a new twist for me; I'll explain why, but I'll have to blather on about myself some more
> 
> I didn't mention that particular fear because I don't have it at this point in time. It's wasn't until you mentioned it here that I realized I don't. Rewinding about four years, I was in college with severe clinical depression. I didn't have any friends at all, I was living at home, and I hadn't had a job in the four years before this. And I knew, deep down, that I would not be able to have a career out of what I was studying. I wasn't good at it, and I didn't have the social networking skills necessary to be able to find work when I graduated (thanks SA).
> 
> ...


What a heartwarming story. Thanks for sharing this.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

identitycrisis said:


> It's not a new twist for me; I'll explain why, but I'll have to blather on about myself some more
> 
> ......snip........
> Either way, you've learned something valuable about yourself. And that knowledge can change _everything._


how can you possibly say that you haven't gotten very far?? you've gone miles and miles!

you completed a degree - whether you use it or not, you *finished*. You survived the depths of despair. You made a huge change - moved out from your parents' house, went to a completely different city, got out on your own, and achieved your EMT cert. all at 25. those are HUGE things.

just one thing - doesn't the weather get to you?? It does me. I want to leave this state, but it won't happen overnight.

Here's the thing though - I did make a huge change. at 20, I joined the Navy and left the west coast to go to boot camp on the east coast. I squandered that opportunity though - I didn't pursue an education that would have been almost free because I thought I was stupid. Instead, I chose to get married to someone who was so incredibly wrong for me it's laughable, and whom I didn't love, and knew that they didn't love me, because I was too frightened to live my life on my own. that ended disastrously and I still have emotional scars from it.

I have squandered chance after chance and am still too afraid to make decisions - well, I suppose I've made some, but haven't really made the ones that matter, or done the right thing by me. After reading your story which you've so kindly shared, I will have to re-evaluate seriously what I'm doing. maybe there are still opportunities for me. the only way to know for sure is to pursue them.

Thanks identity - this can't have been easy for you to write down. I'm awestruck at how you peeps have responded to my little thread. you all rock the house.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

ah, I'm all verklempt now. choking back tears and all.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Everyone focuses on the end result, which is understandable, but what I think a lot of people forget (including me) is the journey. The "journey" is the now; it is the pursuit of something greater; happiness, if you will. Happiness is seen as an end result, but that isn't USUALLY the case. What happens when you reach that end result? How long will it make you happy? An end result happens in a blink of an eye--it's the JOURNEY of the combination of experiences you make that allow happiness. In that sense I think that we stop living the journey that makes us happy because we think we can't get the "end result", but the end result is not what makes us happy; it is the journey. So end results weigh little with happiness if you cannot enjoy the journey. 

So **** what happened in the past or what may happen in the future; aim for what it is you think will bring happiness in your life, and then realize the journey will bring you meaning. If there is something you feel that is lacking then aim for the end result, and when you experience the journey during and after the end result you will be better off because of the experience. The experience isn't always what we wanted, and we can even view the experience as negative, but at least we now have narrowed what journey is the most joyous for us. If you choose a journey to follow then make sure it is something that makes you happy or allows you to learn to experience a better journey in the future. Because happiness is more a journey than an end result, happiness can always happen until you die regardless of your past.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Even further, what happens if we understand the processes of the journey that makes us happy? Can we always be happy then? I think we have a good shot at it. When I live the journey that I personally know makes me happy I am usually happy. Still, our ideas and even the processes of what makes us happy changes as well so it may always be an ongoing thing, which is even a better reason to experience change. It still seems to be the journey though.

Also, frustration can make us unhappy following a journey, but we will still seek out another journey. LOL. blah blah blah

EDIT*

Here are the processes I think make me happy:

1. Going after what I want in life consistently
2. Learning and growing as an individual
3. Challenging my fears
4. Experiencing life with others; sharing; giving

etc...

Notice these are processes and NOT an end result. It is always ongoing, but it makes me happy. I think "happiness" comes down to _striving _to live to our fullest potential as people. If fear is something that holds you back from something you think will make you happy then you are denying the journey of happiness to happen. This is why it is vital to challenge your fears if they stand in your way of a happy journey.

EDIT#2*
Not only does happiness equate to striving to live to our full potential, but it also means we strive to be the best _survivalists_ we can be. We cannot be good survivors if we run from challenges and the journey that makes us happy. These things are instinctual, which means most people tend to follow the same processes to have true happiness. Someone may follow a path of destruction thinking they are happy, but that path is a lie and leads to destruction, and thus a decline in survival. Everything humans do comes down to survival, even altruistic behaviors. If happiness is a journey of instinctual processes, and if we all are grounded in these processes, then it makes a lot of sense to me. The best survivalists, I would argue, are the happiest people. Happiness is a journey because it is an instinctual process that makes us the best survivors we can be. If we stray from that process then we become depressed or sad because we are not living to our full potential and we decrease our survival in that sense.


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## ManOfFewWords (Mar 20, 2012)

That's just how I feel about this thread.


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## identitycrisis (Sep 18, 2011)

Thanks for the positive replies, guys. It actually wasn't that hard to write, I think I've been looking for an excuse to talk about it this openly for a long time.



leonardess said:


> how can you possibly say that you haven't gotten very far?? you've gone miles and miles!
> 
> you completed a degree - whether you use it or not, you *finished*. You survived the depths of despair. You made a huge change - moved out from your parents' house, went to a completely different city, got out on your own, and achieved your EMT cert. all at 25. those are HUGE things.


When you put it that way, you're right, but it doesn't _feel_ like I've gotten very far. I think it's mostly because it's all just a means to an end. The end goal for me has _always_ been to get married and start a family. Having a stable career - and one that I have a passion for, like EMS - is just icing on the cake. It's a little backwards compared to most guys, but that's who I am. My inability to date, through fear and anxiety - I've been single for nearly 8 years now - makes me feel like there's still thousands of miles to go.



> just one thing - doesn't the weather get to you?? It does me. I want to leave this state, but it won't happen overnight.


Absolutely not. Compared to where I grew up in Upper Michigan, this is like heaven. 30 degree winters? Nice. Barely any snow? I'll take it. No bugs? Staying here forever. Plus, King County's EMS system is one of the best in the country.



> Here's the thing though - I did make a huge change. at 20, I joined the Navy and left the west coast to go to boot camp on the east coast. I squandered that opportunity though - I didn't pursue an education that would have been almost free because I thought I was stupid. Instead, I chose to get married to someone who was so incredibly wrong for me it's laughable, and whom I didn't love, and knew that they didn't love me, because I was too frightened to live my life on my own. that ended disastrously and I still have emotional scars from it.
> 
> I have squandered chance after chance and am still too afraid to make decisions - well, I suppose I've made some, but haven't really made the ones that matter, or done the right thing by me. After reading your story which you've so kindly shared, I will have to re-evaluate seriously what I'm doing. maybe there are still opportunities for me. the only way to know for sure is to pursue them.


So maybe - and my guess is you already know this - you're afraid that if you pursue a relationship, you'll just end up in another disastrous marriage? Most people would probably tell you to just "move on", but that's like telling someone with depression or social anxiety to "get over it." It's a tough one, no doubts about it, but look at it this way. You've been through the worst. You know what to avoid now. I always cringe when I see people get married after mere months (or days...) of knowing each other, because I know that any good relationship should be taken slowly, with lots of contemplation and soul-searching. If the fear is based in making that mistake again, can you overcome it with the knowledge that you know how to avoid that mistake?



> ah, I'm all verklempt now.


And today I learned a new word. Cheers!


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## Andre (Feb 27, 2004)

WintersTale said:


> I generally am more attracted to 18 and 19 year olds, which is typical, since I look young for my age.


You keep saying stuff like this, but do you really look all that young? I think you posted a picture of yourself in your avatar.

I think I remember you complained about looking young, but even if you do, why is that a problem?


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## Andre (Feb 27, 2004)

Sorry, I've been wanting to read the thread. I'll try when I get back.


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## identitycrisis (Sep 18, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> Everyone focuses on the end result, which is understandable, but what I think a lot of people forget (including me) is the journey. The "journey" is the now; it is the pursuit of something greater; happiness, if you will. Happiness is seen as an end result, but that isn't USUALLY the case. What happens when you reach that end result? How long will it make you happy? An end result happens in a blink of an eye--it's the JOURNEY of the combination of experiences you make that allow happiness. In that sense I think that we stop living the journey that makes us happy because we think we can't get the "end result", but the end result is not what makes us happy; it is the journey. So end results weigh little with happiness if you cannot enjoy the journey.
> 
> So **** what happened in the past or what may happen in the future; aim for what it is you think will bring happiness in your life, and then realize the journey will bring you meaning. If there is something you feel that is lacking then aim for the end result, and when you experience the journey during and after the end result you will be better off because of the experience. The experience isn't always what we wanted, and we can even view the experience as negative, but at least we now have narrowed what journey is the most joyous for us. If you choose a journey to follow then make sure it is something that makes you happy or allows you to learn to experience a better journey in the future. Because happiness is more a journey than an end result, happiness can always happen until you die regardless of your past.


Great post. I think a lot of people (myself included) often lose sight of this. People talk about happiness all the time like it's something tangible, like once you get it you can put it in a box and set it on your mantelpiece. It's always an ongoing process (nevermind, you're right. "Journey" sounds better). If you look for it, you can see this idea explored in books, movies, tv shows, and games all the time. What happens when such a protagonist reaches "happiness"? They get bored, they fail to understand what made them happy, and their life begins to unravel.

I think true happiness for me would be, on my deathbed, turning to my wife and saying, "We had a great time, didn't we?"


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

identitycrisis said:


> Thanks for the positive replies, guys. It actually wasn't that hard to write, I think I've been looking for an excuse to talk about it this openly for a long time.
> 
> When you put it that way, you're right, but it doesn't _feel_ like I've gotten very far. I think it's mostly because it's all just a means to an end. The end goal for me has _always_ been to get married and start a family. Having a stable career - and one that I have a passion for, like EMS - is just icing on the cake. It's a little backwards compared to most guys, but that's who I am. My inability to date, through fear and anxiety - I've been single for nearly 8 years now - makes me feel like there's still thousands of miles to go.


You'll get there. and if I may suggest, look at what Bryce has to say about the journey - if you haven't already. And, look at the career this way - it will put you in a better place to have that family that you want. I think it's better to be able to put together the family that you want when you come from a place where you're making a living doing something you find personally rewarding and satisfying, rather than from a place where you're feeling frustrated and like a square peg in a round hole, doing something you feel just isn't right for you. It could be that if you hadn't overcome your fears and pursued a living that is a better fit for you, that that would have possibly affected not only your relationships in pursuit of the mate you want, but also your future children. Kids are like extremely sensitive lightning rods - they pick up on *everything* that is felt by all members of a family and internalize it.

But now, you can enter into all of this with a better sense of self. I know, many people see a career they can actually like as just icing, but it actually really is very important and can affect so many other areas of one's life. You have prepared well - try looking at it that way.

It is VERY hard to get into the medical field, but it can be done. my oldest daughter is 22 and completed her AA degree in Health Informatics. It took her the better part of a year to find a position as a patient registrar at a large cancer treatment company, and it's only part time - for now. But it can be done. You just have to persevere, which is another trait that is good to learn for so many other things, but it sounds to me like you have that, so I have every reason to think, and so do you, that you'll get what you want.



identitycrisis said:


> Absolutely not. Compared to where I grew up in Upper Michigan, this is like heaven. 30 degree winters? Nice. Barely any snow? I'll take it. No bugs? Staying here forever. Plus, King County's EMS system is one of the best in the country.


ha - oh, well, if you put it like that, I guess it's okay! I grew up in California. I'm spoiled.



identitycrisis said:


> So maybe - and my guess is you already know this - you're afraid that if you pursue a relationship, you'll just end up in another disastrous marriage? Most people would probably tell you to just "move on", but that's like telling someone with depression or social anxiety to "get over it." It's a tough one, no doubts about it, but look at it this way. You've been through the worst. You know what to avoid now. I always cringe when I see people get married after mere months (or days...) of knowing each other, because I know that any good relationship should be taken slowly, with lots of contemplation and soul-searching. If the fear is based in making that mistake again, can you overcome it with the knowledge that you know how to avoid that mistake?


I'm not afraid of ending up in a disastrous marriage -I've already had four and I'm never doing that again. I'm afraid of meeting someone I could *really* care for, that would be my idea of perfection (for _me_) and that not being reciprocated. nothing out of the ordinary-type fear, I suppose. I'm also afraid of never finding that. which again is nothing out of the ordinary for most people. I'm also afraid of never having really stood on my own, and I'm afraid *of* living my life on my own (two feet, terms, what-have-you).

Which brings me to my usual state - inertia. I detest this fault in myself.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

Rufus said:


> Sorry, I've been wanting to read the thread. I'll try when I get back.


Hope you can join us.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Rufus said:


> You keep saying stuff like this, but do you really look all that young? I think you posted a picture of yourself in your avatar.
> 
> I think I remember you complained about looking young, but even if you do, why is that a problem?


It's a problem, because I can't attract the women I want. Just jailbait.

Personally, I don't know if I'll ever be in a relationship...but I have no problem dating someone who's older, like the OP. It's just a matter of who I can attract.


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## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

I have nothing valuable to add to this discussion, but leonardess, I really like your posts.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

^ why, thank you very indeed, diamond.

I also wanted to expand on the result of having given my phone number.

Afterward, I didn't want things to be awkward - after all, it is my local coffee shop. I can't do the usual thing and just stop going in there, afraid I'll die of embarrassment.

So, I thought, **** that, I'm going to ****ing talk. While I'm not exactly chatty Cathy, I did open my idiot mouth more and actually _share things about myself_ instead of just standing there or worse, making idiotic jokes that aren't funny. We actually talked. I've talked a bit about my living in England, my travels, how schooling works over there (so much better and easier), about Mad Men, Drive, just regular things. It's no big thing, but it sort of is to me. I have had actual coherent conversations with someone I found extremely attractive, held my head up, looked him in the eyes, and did not lose my train of thought. I can't even remember the last time I managed to do that. All I can remember from the past is finding it impossible to start, let alone maintain.

and it's all fine, and I must admit, a bit _fun_. I guess I can call it part of that journey Bryce has been going on about. 

I had a talk with my dad about some things last time he was up here. I needed a man's perspective. I explained to him that someone said something to me which stuck with me:

most men feel that they are not good enough for the women they're with. Another man had said that to me. My dad's reply surprised me - maybe because he's 63 now, maybe because he himself was quite handsome in his day and pretty much still is for his age - I mean, he was more than handsome - he looked like he could easily have done the Marlboro Man ads back when, and he didn't even know it. Truly, the man NEVER acted as if he was hot ****. he thought he was the opposite.

Anyway, my dad's reply to that thought of men thinking the women they're with are too good for them was - he agreed. He said, "I do think that's true. it was certainly how I felt about your mother. And it's necessary - it's what binds the man to the family".

I was thinking about this today - does this mean men are almost obligated to aim high - (or at least what's high for them)? I would think that "high" is a relative term, you know, each man has to sort of feel out what that might be, but still, if the logic in the concept is sound and therefore to be extrapolated, then it would necessarily be so?

Now, my parents (my mother and this man I call my dad - actually a stepdad, but I think of him as my dad. he IS my dad) literally cannot be without each other. Recently, one of them had to be in California for a month, and the other stayed here. They couldn't take it anymore and so my mother joined my dad in California. Neither was doing well without the other. they've been together for almost 25 years. This is my mother's fourth marriage, and it will be her last.

Sometimes I look at them and can't believe it worked out so well. It was a hard journey for them but obviously worth it.

And, my mother IS too good for him.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

First, I want to apologize up front if doing the following is a no-no - I have copied and pasted a post made by joinmartin in another thread, which I will include a link to, should anyone want to read it in context. I felt that it sums up a different angle on some issues that have been discussed here, and so was very relevant. but again, if this is NOT kosher, then I want to apologize now to joinmartin for this and to any other objecting posters. The quote is in red:

Here we have an interesting, possibly opposing, possibly not opposing, view:

_"So a woman cares about how some random guy is seen in the eyes of some random other guys? In particular, she cares about whether other random guys look up to her potential boyfriend because he sleeps around?

I'd agree to a certain extent that being generally popular with women can build status amongst women. But simply being known amongst guys for sleeping around is not an automatic status builder.  

Also, the behaviours of "scumbags" and "players" can destroy any status they may have forged because people lose the trust they have in them. Trust and comfort are essential building blocks of rapport between people and rapport between people builds status. Chip away at the trust people have in you and you chip away at your own status. Hence the scumbags and players of this world can destroy any status they may have built up through their own behaviours. 

Status is simply one variable amongst many when it comes to the creation of attraction." _

I believe this is true. So, how do we reconcile this with the fact that men who can do what is not easy for them and manage to sexually connect with women, are rewarded or applauded for this behavior, as Bryce had pointed out earlier in this thread? I believe that is also true.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I think most people have occasional failings in their worthiness of each other even though at first they may or may not of thought "worthy" to their counterpart, so it is assumptive to think as human beings with a variety of emotions one sex is "one" thing rather than a complexity of emotions or thoughts. Besides, no offense to your father, but this is one man's view, not counted the other figure you also mentioned earlier. A man isn't always weak or strong, but a complexity of emotions dependent on a multitude of circumstances. There are times I feel worthy of what I would say the most beautiful women I have ever seen; other times, not.

In your example of a slight confidence expenditure, this is also not uncommon for anyone alive. Simply, those of little exposure and of less action taken will say it is an uncommon thing, but those who experience the variables of confidence and shyness because of their constant exposure will tell you that confidence is fluid and dependent on actions and thoughts, and that shyness and lack of esteem is also governed by the same rule. This is to say that everyone alive has the capabilities to be confident and/or shy, whether or not they know how to put themselves in a better position is another matter--it is still innate given human nature.

Nonetheless you should be proud of what you did. Instead of giving evidence to the fact that you are unworthy or incapable, you should praise the evidence that such things are possible and confidence is a fluid thing. Self-esteem and accomplishments do not come so easily often; many take lot of work to build. I myself, as someone who hasn't had SA for years, and as someone who constantly challenges my fears, with people often mistaking me as a "confident and normal person", can tell you accomplishments are just as fluid as emotions and esteem. It is also extremely awarding, the journey. It isn't so black and white. I try to use what accomplishments and things I've proven to myself capable to say there is a better possibility in the future until I know without a doubt it isn't the case.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

I just want to jump back in here for a second and then I must go, but I wanted to point out that all opinions are welcome and no offense taken, and it never will be. I love me dad, but he is of course just one person with his own opinions and biases, what with his being all human and such. 

what I want most from this is serious feedback from others, and that's exactly what you all have given, so I greatly appreciate it.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

leonardess said:


> I believe this is true. So, how do we reconcile this with the fact that men who can do what is not easy for them and manage to sexually connect with women, are rewarded or applauded for this behavior, as Bryce had pointed out earlier in this thread? I believe that is also true.


I understand and respect someone who can do that, not because it adds notches to his or her bedpost, but because it is a free choice, and often a difficult process for some, to do. I respect the fact that both men and women can do this if that is what they want because I see nothing wrong with exploring one's right for sexual experiences.

When I speak of guys often getting more praise, I don't try to represent every person giving praise, but a certain group of society, those who are more or less ignorant of sexual freedom. Because, once again, I DON'T ridicule women for their sexual promiscuity, nor do I men. I think people who are less stigmatized and liberal in the sense of sexual freedom will also be more prone to see the sexes equal in their sexual promiscuity. I don't follow the stigma myself because I try to see a fairer equality given the sexes, both it's pros and cons related to sex. I think each sex has their right to do what they will because it is their choice and given nature to do that. I think the more ignorant people, like those who idolize rap sexism, are more prone to subjugate men and women with different views, negative or positive. I think the stigmatization is just as much as a social phenomenon as anything else, and I also think the more people realize sexual freedom for what it is (natural), then I think things will be less stigmatized and the sexes less judged based upon that behavior. Still, that stigmatization is there.


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## pythonesque (Jun 16, 2012)

leonardess said:


> I remember a particularly carnival-like event. [...] I heard that and I remember feeling very sad about it. I replied in my head that I would *never* do whatever it was she had done, then I thought that didn't matter at all, none of them would even look at me. And then I felt distaste, both for the boys and the girls. If this is the way it's done, I thought, I want no part of it.
> 
> Of course, with hindsight, i realize they were kids and I was a kid too, but it made a huge impression on me. it may have shaped how I think about these matters for the rest of my life and that coupled with other undeniable influences from my growing up years has given me much strife about all this. So, I guess what i'm saying is, that is the generation of my own chord which is also struck when I read or see certain things.
> 
> I also feel these things keenly, and I wish I didn't, or was more resilient, or something.


Wow. That incident you described seems so familiar, and yet so surreal at the same time. It kind of mirrors a particular carnival-esque event I've witnessed myself. It was on Halloween, a couple of years ago. I was with a date, and we were waiting in line for a cab outside a busy downtown club. We spot this couple having a lover's spat across the street from us. It was difficult to make out what they were saying over the loud traffic, but the guy was explaining something and beckoning to the girl, who kept pushing him away.

And so we were all just standing there, watching the whole thing play out. Then out of the blue, this girl next to us in line started yelling, "Dump him! Dump his ***!" ... And before we knew it, everyone around us were joining in; a row of people dressed in outlandish costumes, cheering on the fight from across the street.

I came home that night feeling awful, like I've just witnessed some kind of primitive throwback in the global history of relationships. The decay of love, maybe. And of course, if a little thing like that could have such an impact on me, imagine what an aggregate of all these little experiences could do - seeing relationships around me fall apart; friends who claim to want true love but reject every guy they meet for not fulfilling their checklist of ridiculous standards. Broken marriages owing to irreconcilable differences; lovers pushing the blame onto one another for what went wrong, etc.

When my aunt's marriage was going through a rough patch a while ago, she came to _me_ for advice (imagine the desperation she must've been feeling to have to resort to that!). And she complained endlessly about how she was giving so much and received nothing in return, and all the pet peeves, small everyday grievances that ticked her off. It just made me incredibly disillusioned with the whole concept of marriage. I've always thought if you loved someone enough to marry them, that you'd be able to make compromises, push aside and overlook the little things. But I guess the reality is a lot different from what I imagine it to be.

... But you're right, of course. I need experience. I need to stop drawing wrongful conclusions from other people's mistakes. And in order to do that, I need to go through this whole song and dance myself. I suspect I'm a combination of all the three types of "underachievers" you listed. I do find myself craving an ego stroke at times, if only because I've met so few people in my life who really liked me and took an interest in me. People who can dispell my fear that I'm not worthy of being loved - or maybe that has to come from within? I don't know anymore. But I do need to put myself out there.

Wheeew *deep breath*


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

^hm...... thought provoking. I do have some ideas formulating about what you've said. I'll have more to post on that. 


*cogitates*


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

pythonesque said:


> Wow. That incident you described seems so familiar, and yet so surreal at the same time. It kind of mirrors a particular carnival-esque event I've witnessed myself. .....


That was some..... event. and in public. These things that happen around you WILL have an impact on your attitudes toward relationships.

When emotions are running high, you can't always be assured of what your own reactions will be when you find yourself having to deal with someone else's emotions, actions, and so on. However, this situation you witnessed - that doesn't have to be you.

I think what impressed me most about that incident in high school was how cruel and dismissive people could be toward each other. But, that's how anger most often manifests itself - apathy and cruelty in kind. to this day, I have a very hard time participating in any kind of "fight" unless pushed to my absolute limit - physical violence toward me. Other than that, I may insult a little, but that's about it. I don't argue, etc. A couple of weeks ago the guy I can't make my mind up about began to get all political on me about a simple movie and I was not in the mood. He went into lecture mode, and I walked away. He shouted after me, something about the hearings not being McCarthy's fault.

It was comical. I felt like I was in a movie called "Scenes from a Mall". I kept walking, walking, walking away. I did not shout back, I did not look back, I did not pause.

I refuse to participate in such things, and I also refuse to listen to BS I don't want to hear. And like I say, I rarely try to handle things when my own emotions are running high. So, there are other ways to handle these things.

watching other people and how they deal is surreal and sometimes frightening, but it's also a learning opportunity. We can think, "this is how *I* would have handled that" and then get out there and deal with life and test that. Just as observations have an aggregate effect, so too do experience and learning.



pythonesque said:


> I came home that night feeling awful, like I've just witnessed some kind of primitive throwback in the global history of relationships. The decay of love, maybe. And of course, if a little thing like that could have such an impact on me, imagine what an aggregate of all these little experiences could do - seeing relationships around me fall apart; friends who claim to want true love but reject every guy they meet for not fulfilling their checklist of ridiculous standards. Broken marriages owing to irreconcilable differences; lovers pushing the blame onto one another for what went wrong, etc.


It sounds to me like you are a little afraid of the potential for pain as well as other things you mention. the decay of love, seeing relationships fall apart, etc.

A checklist of ridiculous standards. I worry if perhaps this is a problem I have. I don't know. When I let myself think about what I would want in my ideal partner, I become afraid that the list could wind up being too long and that I'm shallow. I have known of some lists, and they certainly seem that way to me. And then some don't. And others don't have any kind of list and don't seem to give it much thought, and they just sort of wing it, eventually finding someone who has enough of the right stuff. I suppose that's that "click" I hear so much about. I guess. I don't know. I do know I couldn't care less about possessions, kind of car, all that. I never have. I *do* care about physical attraction - there has to be some. and intelligence. that's about all I can think of at the moment. An easy-going nature. That too. But would such a person be willing to put up with me?

that's the flip side of this. As you navigate the water flumes and slides (I was going to say log rides, but deleted it. oh, the double entendres) of relationships, you'll doubtless find yourself in some carnival-esque interludes of your own, and you'll have to learn to deal with them, but remember, someone out there is going to have to learn to deal with you, too.



pythonesque said:


> When my aunt's marriage was going through a rough patch a while ago, she came to _me_ for advice (imagine the desperation she must've been feeling to have to resort to that!). And she complained endlessly about how she was giving so much and received nothing in return, and all the pet peeves, small everyday grievances that ticked her off. It just made me incredibly disillusioned with the whole concept of marriage. I've always thought if you loved someone enough to marry them, that you'd be able to make compromises, push aside and overlook the little things. But I guess the reality is a lot different from what I imagine it to be.


I worry that this is me, as well. Do I complain too much? I don't want to be lectured about every little thing, being told "the right way of thinking" rather than discussing anything. I don't want to be shouted after in a public place. I need space for myself and the things I like to do. I need sex, dammmit. I don't know - am I being too choosy? complaining too much? Another thing to consider is, people, myself included, often complain about every little thing rather than discuss the real problem. Rather than facing a major issue head on, they'll go on about things that don't matter, often not realizing that's what they're doing.

People don't always choose for the right reasons, and people don't always marry for love - I mean, real love, not the fluffy stuff that is popularly presented as love.

I wonder how many people are living mistaken lives - the lives they aren't meant to live because of faulty choices, but the choice once made forces them to stay in that life. Or, makes them feel like they have no other choice.

There was a time, a couple of generations ago, when all this was much simpler. People's expectations were completely different to what they are now. Life has changed so much. A person grew up and lived in a small community where everyone knew everyone else. A woman got married and had children and that was it. A man labored at one thing until he dropped, and that was it. In between, you raised your children, you got them married off, you had lots of grandchildren. You would bury your parents in the same church graveyard your parents had buried their grandparents in. If you were of sturdy stock, you lived to be 60-ish. Everyone married young, because why waste time if you know that's all you're going to do? And so on.

Now, it's more complicated, we have more choice, and we are always on the move. I've said this before, and I still say it, half jokingly - in the near-ish future, people will have so much choice their heads will implode. Or, call it an inertia-insanity.

Your aunt could have found herself in any of these pickles. maybe she did not choose carefully enough.

that's the upshot of what I've said. given how complex life can now be for most of us, and given that we can pick up and move to completely different regions and therefore come across so many people in our lives, I don't think we've adjusted our choice-making skills accordingly. I believe it now requires much more time, experience with others, and forethought - and self knowledge - to pick a mate well.



pythonesque said:


> ... But you're right, of course. I need experience. I need to stop drawing wrongful conclusions from other people's mistakes. And in order to do that, I need to go through this whole song and dance myself. I suspect I'm a combination of all the three types of "underachievers" you listed. I do find myself craving an ego stroke at times, if only because I've met so few people in my life who really liked me and took an interest in me. People who can dispell my fear that I'm not worthy of being loved - or maybe that has to come from within? I don't know anymore. But I do need to put myself out there.
> 
> Wheeew *deep breath*


This paragraph gave me the most pause for thought. Yes, you will make mistakes. No one knows exactly the right thing to do in every moment, in every situation. But try looking at it this way -

say you choose one thing, and later that choice doesn't turn out so well. you may find yourself thinking, "if only I'd chosen the other thing". (this will happen many times throughout your life). There is no guarantee that that other choice would have been any better. It just would have been _different_. yeah, sometimes you'll *know* it would have been better, but not often. And, there are very few things that can't be undone somehow, either by you going back and making the other choice, or simply by time, or whatever.

And the three types. Well, that's a tough one. It may be, and I strongly suspect this is the truth, that we are all a combination of those types, to some degree. One may be stronger in this person than the other type, perhaps that person has a mild case of all three, and perhaps yet another has two in spades.

Maybe, just maybe, the trick is to connect with someone in whose presence you don't feel them at all, or at least much. You just feel good. I don't know. I just know that anyone who said they have a complete absence of any of those things, I'd be looking at them askance.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

bwidger85 said:


> ......
> In your example of a slight confidence expenditure, this is also not uncommon for anyone alive. Simply, those of little exposure and of less action taken will say it is an uncommon thing, but those who experience the variables of confidence and shyness because of their constant exposure will tell you that confidence is fluid and dependent on actions and thoughts, and that shyness and lack of esteem is also governed by the same rule. This is to say that everyone alive has the capabilities to be confident and/or shy, whether or not they know how to put themselves in a better position is another matter--it is still innate given human nature.


good point, and all true as well.



bwidger85 said:


> Nonetheless you should be proud of what you did. Instead of giving evidence to the fact that you are unworthy or incapable, you should praise the evidence that such things are possible and confidence is a fluid thing. Self-esteem and accomplishments do not come so easily often; many take lot of work to build. I myself, as someone who hasn't had SA for years, and as someone who constantly challenges my fears, with people often mistaking me as a "confident and normal person", can tell you accomplishments are just as fluid as emotions and esteem. It is also extremely awarding, the journey. It isn't so black and white. I try to use what accomplishments and things I've proven to myself capable to say there is a better possibility in the future until I know without a doubt it isn't the case.


this is a great attitude - one that I hope will come more naturally to me given a bit of time.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

I'd like to thank you all for posting your thoughts. You've helped me greatly, and I believe I am starting to come out of my funk, with your help.


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## Droidsteel (Mar 22, 2012)

leonardess said:


> I hate that Men are From Mars, Women Are From Venus ****. what a crock.
> 
> Oh how i love to over-analyze. These are things I've been thinking about off and on for a few years. I thought I'd share my thoughts on what men do, and what they have to do.
> 
> ...


That was such a great post 

I could totally hug you right now :cry (happy tears lol)


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

awww! :squeeze


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

all right, all right, all right - I got another piece of the puzzle here. there's an element of "if I can get this chick to dig me, then I *am* someone" to all of this too. there is no intent behind the words. I get it.


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