# Are men more self conscious about their looks than women?



## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

I think there is a shift occurring, to where men are more self conscious about their looks than women. I sometimes peruse those threads on reddit where people ask to get rated, or ask if they are ugly, and honestly I see mostly men posting on there. Even on SAS men are posting ad nauseum about their looks, seeking approval etc.

Maybe it's just a low self esteem thing and trying to pinpoint reasons why things are the way they are. Or maybe a shift in gender roles where there is more competition amongst men for approval of their peers they desire romantic relationships with. The internet sure has made looks the number 1 priority in dating these days.


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

Absolutely not.


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## flyingMint (Aug 31, 2015)

I think both are equally self conscious it's just that men aren't usually admitting it as much as women are.


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

And I have noticed the same thing. The reddit amiugly section seems to be mainly guys. And sas men seem to be more preoccupied with their looks than normal men. Idk quite what's going on, but I wouldn't generalize it to all men, and I don't see it as a gender shift. Yes there's increasingly more pressure on men to be conscious of their looks. But I think that women probably use other mediums to assess their looks. I also think they're more likely to seek validation, by dressing more provocatively and wearing makeup, or even posting nudes, rather than to take very average photos and directly ask if they're ugly. That's possibly a bit too confronting and humiliating for a lot of women to face. But some of them will do that, especially if they have BDD.


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## LMSpill (Jan 6, 2016)

Men are waking up to the lie that looks don't matter and that it's all about confidence. If you don't meet a certain looks threshold no amount of confidence will save you. Women want good genes for their children so they are attracted to men with physical indicators of good genes.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

Rains said:


> And I have noticed the same thing. The reddit amiugly section seems to be mainly guys. And sas men seem to be more preoccupied with their looks than normal men. Idk quite what's going on, but I wouldn't generalize it to all men, and I don't see it as a gender shift. Yes there's increasingly more pressure on men to be conscious of their looks. But I think that women probably use other mediums to assess their looks. I also think they're more likely to seek validation, by dressing more provocatively and wearing makeup, or even posting nudes, rather than to take very average photos and directly ask if they're ugly. That's possibly a bit too confronting and humiliating for a lot of women to face. But some of them will do that, especially if they have BDD.


But the difference is men aren't even close to garnering the same validation as women get for their looks. So it leaves a lot of doubt in one's mind, when seeking that positive feedback and valuation. You can see many examples of the disparity anywhere on the web. Men will literally auto-compliment any girl who posts anything. (which doesn't sound like it'd do well for someone seeking approval or has BDD)

I guess it comes down to expectations and what someone is actually, honestly, truly looking for, the feedback on how physically attractive they are.


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## Darktower776 (Aug 16, 2013)

You know in this day and age with the internet and cameras in everyone's pocket along with social media, it does seem guys are more concerned about their looks than in the past. I think it is part of the tech culture we live in now and wanting to look good/cool is more important with all the pics and selfies flying around.

However I think it also means girls are even more self conscious about their looks than before so it sort of evens out. I wouldn't say it is a cultural shift or anything like that though. Just more to do with how our culture is becoming ever more superficial.


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

rdrr said:


> But the difference is men aren't even close to garnering the same validation as women get for their looks. So it leaves a lot of doubt in one's mind, when seeking that positive feedback and valuation. You can see many examples of the disparity anywhere on the web. Men will literally auto-compliment any girl who posts anything. (which doesn't sound like it'd do well for someone seeking approval or has BDD)
> 
> I guess it comes down to expectations and what someone is actually, honestly, truly looking for, the feedback on how physically attractive they are.


I agree it's pretty easy for many women to get SOME kind of validation, because even if they aren't very pretty, if they wear something revealing or go nude, there are enough horndog men out there to validate that. But it's a very empty and meaningless validation. It doesn't even have much to do with looks; it's just advertising your sexual availability. Men will jump all over that because a lot of them have pretty low standards for casual sex.

And men aren't intrinsically valued for their looks as much as women are either. For a man, being unattractive is considered generally, a minor setback at most, certainly not a deal breaker. For a woman, it can often be considered devastating, like your worth as a woman is seriously compromised, or like you're not a even true woman because your attractiveness is held in such high regard. This is even worse in many developing countries where the divide is more pronounce, and a lot of women focus excessively on appearing as feminine and appealing to the male eye as possible because they're considered a failure and are the butt of jokes if they aren't (I have witnessed this first hand).


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

It's good to care about your looks whether you're a guy or girl. Because whether you like it or not, your appearance play a big role in how you are judged as a potential partner and others perceive you and even how others treat you. 

But the good thing is that anybody can improve their appearance whether that's working out, gaining or losing weight, wearing better clothes, practicing better hygiene. 

Now unfortunately there's some things you can't change such as your height and your weight to a certain extent. Obesity in women is a huge deal breaker for a good majority of men but if you lost weight, started doing aerobic exercise, eating less and eating healthier, you can definitely lose some weight. Not only will you receive more attention from men, but you will be healthier and feel better as well.


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## Mr Fluff (Sep 16, 2014)

Hmmm, um, no. :no

Males might be acting in more self-conscious ways regarding their appearance than in the past... and that's reflected in the increasing number of males seeking validation for their appearance online. So, yeah, that bit is changing.

However, females are conditioned from childhood to believe their bodies determine their worth and are their currency. Even look at the comment above mine, he's coaching female SAS members to modify their bodies to maintain the status quo of pandering to male sexual appetites.
:wtf
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## alienbird (Apr 9, 2010)

Holds The Key said:


> Hmmm, um, no. :no
> 
> Males might be acting in more self-conscious ways regarding their appearance than in the past... and that's reflected in the increasing number of males seeking validation for their appearance online. So, yeah, that bit is changing.
> 
> ...


^ ^ ^ 
Exactly.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

As with everything, you can blame kpop (kpop is responsible for Obama too, yes):






lol jk

Honestly though guys outside of South Korea and to a slightly lesser extent Japan, don't have anything to worry about yet lol.... (companies really went all out in marketing beauty products to men and now it's basically a cultural thing they have to compete on... In addition to everything else, it didn't replace anything. Not to mention all the plastic surgery in Korea. Sucks to be them.)

I actually think guys on this site are much more preoccupied than most guys I've known, people here have a tendency to focus on one thing obsessively as the reason for all their problems. Sometimes they switch it up too. You can see guys here complaining about everything, not just looks.

But overall relative to women I wouldn't say so, I do think most women are more insecure about their physical appearance than men because it holds more weight.


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## visualkeirockstar (Aug 5, 2012)

Why not? We're the ones who have to do the approaching.


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## Rixy (Oct 4, 2009)

In recent years, thanks to things like bodybuilding and super jacked movie stars there is definitely an increased pressure on guys to get "buff" or whatever but I don't think it's on the same level that women "have" to be conventionally attractive. It'd have to take a lot longer to catch up with the dozens of generations in which women have been objectified and accessorized (is that a word? It is now...).


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## Jesuszilla (May 26, 2013)

No they're not


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

Whether they are or are not is down to a certain individual. The problem is that women forbid men to talk about their issues, insecurities especially and belittle and ridicule them whnever they do, selfishly bringing up their own problems and claiming how much worse their insecurity issues are than mens. Then those same girls will go out of their way to make men feel insecure, and not just about anything but about things these men cannot change, at least men are shallow about things girls are able to change. 
@Rains



> And men aren't intrinsically valued for their looks as much as women are either. For a man, being unattractive is considered generally, a minor setback at most, certainly not a deal breaker. For a woman, it can often be considered devastating, like your worth as a woman is seriously compromised, or like you're not a even true woman because your attractiveness is held in such high regard.


That much is generally true about women but men have their own equivalent to that and that is masculinity and it works exactly the same as attractiveness does with women, so don't pretend this is some issue unique to women because it is not.



> Honestly though guys outside of South Korea and to a slightly lesser extent Japan, don't have anything to worry about yet lol.... (companies really went all out in marketing beauty products to men and now it's basically a cultural thing they have to compete on... In addition to everything else, it didn't replace anything. Not to mention all the plastic surgery in Korea. Sucks to be them.)


Don't have anything to worry about? I think you know better than that. But yes you're right, South Korea is a land mine field when it comes to insecurities and the likes, its worse there than anywhere else but this unsustainable, you can't live in a society where everyone is extremely attractive and pays so much attention to their appearance as to spend tens of thousands of dollars on different kinds of beauty enhacing products or procedures.


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## Q003 (Jun 24, 2015)

Rains said:


> For a woman, it can often be considered devastating, like your worth as a woman is seriously compromised, or like you're not a even true woman because your attractiveness is held in such high regard.


Yes, plus you're not even considered a sexual being. You're considered asexual. I speak from experience.


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## euphoria04 (May 8, 2012)

It comes down to the individual. The internet skews male, and I think men are more likely to bring up these issues in the anonymity of the internet, where they won't be ridiculed or told to man up (or that stigma won't follow them around, as you can always abandon an online identity in a pinch; not so with your real life self). Women feel more comfortable seeking support with real life friends.



SaladDays said:


> Whether they are or are not is down to a certain individual. The problem is that women forbid men to talk about their issues, insecurities especially and belittle and ridicule them whnever they do, selfishly bringing up their own problems and claiming how much worse their insecurity issues are than mens.


Ironically these issues are treated as 'feminine' ones to have, and in bringing them up you're seen as less of a man for doing so, by both men and women. The people who are most upset and disgusted with gender roles are often the quickest to perpetuate them when it comes to an issue they can't personally relate to.

i.e.: a woman seeing a man as less masculine/more feminine, for having an insecurity about appearance, or complaining. Women who do this don't seem to realize they're saying something about women in the process of doing so.

People don't want to be confined to gender roles personally, they just want to confine everyone else to gender roles.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

#nomakeupselfie

There is increasing pressure on men, but its not even in the same league.


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## JustThisGuy (Mar 24, 2012)

I'd call it even. Kind of a copout, but yeah. Women do so much to look good, whereas men have a good look by having disheveled hair and unshaven faces. So... Yeah.

I think what you're seeing on Reddit is a lack of validation. Men don't seem to get the compliments women get. At least not out in the open and in high abundance. Unless you're a celeb, I guess. So that could answer that.

I could see this thread devolving into a 'who has it harder' thread, even if it wasn't your intention. But we'll see, I guess.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

Maybe the effeminate men but in general no.


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

Holds The Key said:


> Even look at the comment above mine, he's coaching female SAS members to modify their bodies to maintain the status quo of pandering to male sexual appetites.
> :wtf
> http://www.socialanxietysupport.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


Yeah well even my mom agrees with me. Losing weight is good, I know it's popular right now to "accept yourself for who you are" movement but let's face it, a good number of men will see obesity as a major turn off. Like only 30% of SAS members would consider an obese girl and it's probably even lower for young men. Men are just hard-wired to like beauty; it's the same with women actually. http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f40/guys-would-you-date-an-obese-chick-1710489/

And obesity is a fixable thing. It's not like height or race where you can't change that, you can lose weight. You don't have to be skinny because many men like curvier girls but obesity is not good, even losing like 10 pounds makes a difference.

If getting a girlfriend/boyfriend is what you want, then you have to improve yourself whatever way possible. And sometimes that includes having to hear negative feedback from others you don't want to hear.


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## Mr Fluff (Sep 16, 2014)

xxDark Horse said:


> Yeah well even my mom agrees with me.


:haha


xxDark Horse said:


> . And sometimes that includes having to hear negative feedback from others you don't want to hear.


You really missed the point of what I said... 
It is that, you dear, do not have the right to police or coach women (or other men) about what to do with _their _bodies. If you really believe that you do, then you are an arrogant little prick.

You, and people like you, are sending this message: _Be like us or we'll tell you how shameful your existence is until you change it. _
Your "advice" about what people should be doing with their bodies was completely unsolicited.
Unless someone is specifically asking _you _for advice about what to do with their body, just STFU. Seriously.

Anyways, if you're unable to grasp this concept then that says a lot about the type of person you are. 
Thank you, for being a very convenient example of the point I was making earlier. :kiss:http://www.socialanxietysupport.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## indielife (Jun 17, 2015)

I am more self-conscious about my looks than most women, I would imagine. However, I do think that in general most men don't really care too much about how they look as long as they aren't hideous.

I also do think that it's seen as less manly to be self-conscious about ones looks, and thus men seek advice/approval on reddit instead of confiding with their peers, as it's humiliating. That's how I personally feel about it at least.

Sadly, us men don't have any of that magic powder (makeup) that women do, so we have really work out asses off to look at least somewhat decent, unless genetically gifted. We have to work with what is given to us and make the best of it.



Holds The Key said:


> However, females are conditioned from childhood to believe their bodies determine their worth and are their currency. Even look at the comment above mine, he's coaching female SAS members to modify their bodies to maintain the status quo of pandering to male sexual appetites.


I don't see anything wrong with trying to attractive to the opposite sex. However, one must of course mainly change for oneself. Staying at a healthy weight is of course also... HEALTHY, so it's a win/win to slim down either way. Note that I am talking about a healthy weight, not necessarily being skinny.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SaladDays said:


> Whether they are or are not is down to a certain individual. The problem is that women forbid men to talk about their issues, insecurities especially and belittle and ridicule them whnever they do, selfishly bringing up their own problems and claiming how much worse their insecurity issues are than mens. Then those same girls will go out of their way to make men feel insecure, and not just about anything but about things these men cannot change, at least men are shallow about things girls are able to change.
> 
> @Rains
> 
> ...


If you quote me that way I won't get a notification. You know what I mean. Men do not have to worry as much as women about physical appearence in the west (even if they do), they can still compensate with most women. I've seen numerous guys who weren't that physically attractive with girlfriends, sometimes considerably more attractive ones.

And your comment about changing is bs right now plastic surgery is inhibitively expensive for many and it doesn't work miricles. If you get a lot done it's obvious and a lot of guys find it unnattractive, preferring natural beauty.


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## steph22 (May 12, 2013)

i think men are the much more sensitive sex that's in my experience. :laugh:


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

Holds The Key said:


> :haha
> 
> You really missed the point of what I said...
> It is that, you dear, do not have the right to police or coach women (or other men) about what to do with _their _bodies. If you really believe that you do, then you are an arrogant little prick.
> ...


You better hope no vampires are around...


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

Holds The Key said:


> :haha
> 
> You really missed the point of what I said...
> It is that, you dear, do not have the right to police or coach women (or other men) about what to do with _their _bodies. If you really believe that you do, then you are an arrogant little prick.
> ...


He's the guy that makes all those awful "would you date _____" threads, you're not going to get through to him on this topic.


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## M0rbid (Jan 11, 2011)

*more like self conscious about their wallet*


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## DistraughtOwl (Mar 1, 2014)

I notice it more on the internet and on this site. But to most men they don't really think about it so much I think. As for me personally definitely.


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## sighsigh (Nov 9, 2010)

Guys with social anxiety are super conscious about their looks because they know they can't count on their personality to back them up.


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> If you quote me that way I won't get a notification. You know what I mean. Men do not have to worry as much as women about physical appearence in the west (even if they do), they can still compensate with most women. I've seen numerous guys who weren't that physically attractive with girlfriends, sometimes considerably more attractive ones.
> 
> And your comment about changing is bs right now plastic surgery is inhibitively expensive for many and it doesn't work miricles. If you get a lot done it's obvious and a lot of guys find it unnattractive, preferring natural beauty.


Sorry about the quoting 

Are you telling me a 90 lbs 5'0 guy can "compensate for it" for most women? I bet there isn't a girl on this site (bar yourself, I suppose) that would give him a chance regardless of his merit. Guys can be less attractive and still do well with women so long as they are masculine, if they are not they would have it as bad as ugly girls do - hell maybe even worse if they don't make up for it by doing well in other areas.

About plastic surgery - you're right I suppose it doesn't work miricles but as others pointed out in this thread with the help of make-up girls can make themselves much more attractive. If you have a face that looks like Dresden 1944 and you're male tough luck you're going to be like that for your entire life.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SaladDays said:


> Sorry about the quoting
> 
> Are you telling me a 90 lbs 5'0 guy can "compensate for it" for most women? I bet there isn't a girl on this site (bar yourself, I suppose) that would give him a chance regardless of his merit. Guys can be less attractive and still do well with women so long as they are masculine, if they are not they would have it as bad as ugly girls do - hell maybe even worse if they don't make up for it by doing well in other areas.
> 
> About plastic surgery - you're right I suppose it doesn't work miricles but as others pointed out in this thread with the help of make-up girls can make themselves much more attractive. If you have a face that looks like Dresden 1944 and you're male tough luck you're going to be like that for your entire life.


Yeah, I mean you can be Peter Dinklage right? (4'5") Tons of fangirls and married. Actually you can tell his wife doesn't give a **** cause look at the heels she wears lol (I don't like heels, they're uncomfortable and I would definitely sprain my ankles in those.)

http://media2.popsugar-assets.com/f..._152658404/i/Peter-Dinklage-Erica-Schmidt.jpg

There are couples with taller women and shorter men, uncommon but I've seen quite a few on reddit, some people post photos, not to mention shorter women are still an option.

I'm not saying it's likely all the time but most guys aren't going to have that extreme a height disadvantage in the first place. Unattractive women never have that option, and makeup doesn't always work either. If you're a bit under average you can use that to get a boost though.

What I'm saying is being conventionally attractive is an advantage for men and women, but only men can compensate for an extreme lack of it. How easy that is, depends on the guy. But it's like there's a mountain there that you can climb right, or a hill, or a step. For some women all they have is a wall.


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

@Persephone The Dread


> Yeah, I mean you can be Peter Dinklage right? Tons of fangirls and married.


Anecdotal example. How many dwarves die virgins, friendless and ignored?



> I'm not saying it's likely all the time but most guys aren't going to have that extreme a height disadvantage in the first place.


What's important here is that I didn't list just height but being small framed and thin, baby face etc. And you can easily reverse "few guys are unattractive to women" argument, after all a plenthora of men like all sorts of girls from slim to curvy.



> What I'm saying is being conventionally attractive is an advantage for men and women, but only men can compensate for an extreme lack of it.


I partially agree. Indeed unattractive women get far less opportunities in life than their attractive counterparts do and this likely goes beyond dating too. But men aren't any better than that, it's just that instead of attractiveness the measure for them is masculinity, which is even worse because it has both physical attributes to it and personality attributes.



> For some women all they have is a wall.


Then blow the horn of winter.

(some people will get that, sorry I couldn't help it)


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Look @SaladDays if you can't see that women generally have to compete harder on physical attractiveness you're blind. Why do you think they're the ones that spend so much time on their looks in the first place? Guys have other things to worry about that are a bigger concern. It's easy to see what the majority of each sex competes over.

If women stopped bothering with their appearance en masse, you'd soon see what I'm talking about. You already have guys online moaning that women in the west aren't putting in enough effort with their appearance now. In the UK women put in less effort relative to other European countries, and in return they are widely considered the least attractive in Europe.

*edit:* Also imo lots of guys look hot with makeup especially eye makeup so I'm not sure why society's decided it's not an option but tbh I don't think most guys _want _ to wear makeup. Do you?

I'm really behind on game of thrones btw. No spoilers. I'll cut you. And then eat all your chickens.


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Look @SaladDays if you can't see that women generally have to compete harder on physical attractiveness you're blind. Why do you think they're the ones that spend so much time on their looks in the first place? Guys have other things to worry about that are a bigger concern. It's easy to see what the majority of each sex competes over.
> 
> If women stopped bothering with their appearance en masse, you'd soon see what I'm talking about. You already have guys online moaning that women in the west aren't putting in enough effort with their appearance now. In the UK women put in less effort relative to other European countries, and in return they are widely considered the least attractive in Europe.


I'm arguing that guys that are at the bottom of the barrel have it the worst, not the average woman vs the average man, in which case yes the women probably worry more about their looks.


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## BJam (May 6, 2014)

Not all men are judged based on attractiveness (at least not very harshly), while most women are to some extent.

Probably some male models are as concerned as their counterparts when it comes to looks, but there are plenty of guys who never shave, or get a haircut, and roll out of the bed every morning and stumble to work, and nobody takes much note of it.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SaladDays said:


> I'm arguing that guys that are at the bottom of the barrel have it the worst, not the average woman vs the average man, in which case yes the women probably worry more about their looks.


I wasn't trying to have a discussion about who has it worse overall, this thread is purely talking about physical appearance. The metrics aren't the same.

Here's how it goes _most _ of the time:

terrible looks + nothing else to offer guy = screwed

terrible looks + something else to offer guy = not screwed

Good looks + nothing else to offer guy = not screwed but has a harder time than female equivalent

good looks + something else to offer guy = God

terrible looks with nothing else to offer woman = screwed

terrible looks + something else to offer woman = screwed

good looks + nothing else to offer = goddess

good looks + something else to offer = goddess

But people aren't divided into super attractive and terrible looking, so there's a gradient as well. Same with other traits.


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I wasn't trying to have a discussion about who has it worse overall, this thread is purely talking about physical appearance. The metrics aren't the same.
> 
> Here's how it goes _most _ of the time:
> 
> ...


actually you got it all wrong, if you're an ugly guy with nothing to offer you aren't going to get screwed, but if you're the opposite you're going to get screwed a lot, same with all the rest they are in reverse.
but the whole "something to offer" bs isnt something guys can work towards anyway lol


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I wasn't trying to have a discussion about who has it worse overall, this thread is purely talking about physical appearance. The metrics aren't the same.
> 
> Here's how it goes _most _ of the time:
> 
> ...


How do you define screwed though? A woman with terrible looks and absolutely nothing else to offer, she'll have plenty of guys open to dating her. The only way a woman is 'screwed' for being unattractive is if she has way too high of standards that men can't meet and can't bring herself to lower them.


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## nepnep247 (Feb 25, 2016)

SaladDays said:


> I'm arguing that guys that are at the bottom of the barrel have it the worst, not the average woman vs the average man, in which case yes the women probably worry more about their looks.


r u a girl??


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## M0rbid (Jan 11, 2011)

nepnep247 said:


> r u a girl??


Its a hot girl


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## vsaxena (Apr 17, 2015)

I'm not going to get involved in the debate, but for me, Christ ... I obsess over my looks. I mean, I spend so much time at the gym, cooking healthy meals and WEIGHING MYSELF over and over again. I also cannot stand all the pimples and moles on my face. So yeah, personally, I am super self-conscious about my looks, and I wish to God there were more resources for guys like me. Sadly, there aren't ...

Plus, years ago while leaving a grocery store and passing a group of girls, I briefly glanced at them, only to hear one yell back, "MAYBE IF YOU WEREN'T SO UGLY" The whole troop of flunkies then burst out laughing. I still got that memory etched in my head.


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

nepnep247 said:


> r u a girl??


im whatever u want me to be bby


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## nepnep247 (Feb 25, 2016)

SaladDays said:


> im whatever u want me to be bby


ok be neptune for me


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

nepnep247 said:


> ok be neptune for me


you want me to be a gas giant? As is thy bidding, my master.

edit: It is done.


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## nepnep247 (Feb 25, 2016)

SaladDays said:


> you want me to be a gas giant? As is thy bidding, my master.
> 
> edit: It is done.


no not that nep i mean neptune from neptunia


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

nepnep247 said:


> no not that nep i mean neptune from neptunia


your link isnt working and i wont be your sexual fantasy cartoon girl :s


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

Replying on a tablet so if I get crossposted, that's why. (This post started at 7:19.)



visualkeirockstar said:


> Why not? We're the ones who have to do the approaching.


Why? We're the ones who have to look pretty enough for you guys to approach us.



SaladDays said:


> Whether they are or are not is down to a certain individual. The problem is that women forbid men to talk about their issues, insecurities especially and belittle and ridicule them whnever they do, selfishly bringing up their own problems and claiming how much worse their insecurity issues are than mens. Then those same girls will go out of their way to make men feel insecure, and not just about anything but about things these men cannot change, at least men are shallow about things girls are able to change.


My experience may be too limited but I've seen guys ridicule other guys for expressing their emotions far more than I've seen women ridicule guys for the same thing. :/ Especially here on SAS, it seems the majority of the "Man up" comments come from guys. I've also more than once seen women--myself included--expressing empathy toward guys who feel the need to suppress their emotions, but our empathy is often overlooked.



xxDark Horse said:


> Losing weight is good, I know it's popular right now to "accept yourself for who you are" movement


I don't understand why there's this assumption that if a person isn't driving themselves crazy trying to lose weight, it must mean they're one of those "Fat and proud of it!" types... :|



> And obesity is a fixable thing. It's not like height or race where you can't change that, you can lose weight. You don't have to be skinny because many men like curvier girls but obesity is not good, even losing like 10 pounds makes a difference.


On a site full of people who've tried years and years of treatments and have failed over and over again to "just get over" their anxiety...the lack of understanding toward obese people who have often spent just as many years and have failed just as many times to lose the weight is very strange to me.

The next time someone here says just how easy it is to lose weight because "Hey, I did it, anyone can!"...I should use that exact same argument about overcoming SA.

And before anyone says, "They're not the same!"... judging by the mindsets here, they're not as vastly different as you think. The "Just get over it!" mentality is exactly the same.

Oh...and for some of us, losing 10lbs makes no noticeable difference in our looks.



SaladDays said:


> Are you telling me a 90 lbs 5'0 guy can "compensate for it" for most women? I bet there isn't a girl on this site (bar yourself, I suppose) that would give him a chance regardless of his merit.


I would give him a chance.

He wouldn't give me a chance, though.



> About plastic surgery - you're right I suppose it doesn't work miricles but as others pointed out in this thread with the help of make-up girls can make themselves much more attractive.


Not all of us can tolerate makeup. I can't.

And no amount of makeup would fix my weight or my figure which is horrible even without the extra weight. 



SaladDays said:


> What's important here is that I didn't list just height but being small framed and thin, baby face etc. And you can easily reverse "few guys are unattractive to women" argument, after all a plenthora of men like all sorts of girls from slim to curvy.


"From slim to curvy" isn't a very wide range of female body types...it's basically, from very skinny to not quite skinny. :/ Most "curvy" women aren't even obese.



> I partially agree. Indeed unattractive women get far less opportunities in life than their attractive counterparts do and this likely goes beyond dating too. But men aren't any better than that, it's just that instead of attractiveness the measure for them is masculinity, which is even worse because it has both physical attributes to it and personality attributes.


The very few times guys online showed interest in me (because none do IRL), they promptly lost interest in me when they learned more about my personality.

If we don't have looks OR personality going for us, nobody wants us.  Maybe it's easier for really hot girls...but many of us don't have that advantage.

BTW, since it must seem like I am...I'm definitely not saying men don't have their particular struggles. Many of the male issues listed in this thread (especially re: men needing to suppress their emotions) are legitimate and frustrating ones. It's just that many of the male assumptions about women's issues are inaccurate.

*It seems like when guys judge women's issues, they hold us all to the standard set by attractive, non-SA women. :/ *



Wings of Amnesty said:


> A woman with terrible looks and absolutely nothing else to offer, she'll have plenty of guys open to dating her. The only way a woman is 'screwed' for being unattractive is if she has way too high of standards that men can't meet and can't bring herself to lower them.


I've never had ANY guys open to dating me. So, yet again, a guy's assessment of my personal experience is dead wrong, or else women like me just don't count. As usual.

And oh how ironic, the basic comment "Lower your standards," coming from _you_!



SaladDays said:


> you want me to be a gas giant? As is thy bidding, my master.
> 
> edit: It is done.


:lol

ETA, holy crap, not crossposted! It's a miracle!!


----------



## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

vsaxena said:


> I'm not going to get involved in the debate, but for me, Christ ... I obsess over my looks. I mean, I spend so much time at the gym, cooking healthy meals and WEIGHING MYSELF over and over again. I also cannot stand all the pimples and moles on my face. So yeah, personally, I am super self-conscious about my looks, and I wish to God there were more resources for guys like me. Sadly, there aren't ...
> 
> Plus, years ago while leaving a grocery store and passing a group of girls, I briefly glanced at them, only to hear one yell back, "MAYBE IF YOU WEREN'T SO UGLY" The whole troop of flunkies then burst out laughing. I still got that memory etched in my head.


Yeah I mean, I was pretty brutally made fun of throughout school, I've had cosmetic surgery as an adult, and I still don't feel able to wear most clothes or be seen because I have that lingering feelings of being so gross. But apparently I'm not supposed to be the gender that's insecure about looks....


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## lost wanderer (Dec 20, 2015)

No. There will always be guys that do care about it, but not to the same level on how common it is for women. I do care about my appearance, but only when I go to a wedding or something like that. The last time I really cares was in highschool like 10 years ago.


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## lost wanderer (Dec 20, 2015)

SaladDays said:


> nepnep247 said:
> 
> 
> > ok be neptune for me
> ...


Lmao that made my day.


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

SaladDays said:


> That much is generally true about women but men have their own equivalent to that and that is masculinity and it works exactly the same as attractiveness does with women, *so don't pretend this is some issue unique to women because* it is not.


I wasn't pretending anything. I even acknowledged in my second post that I had made the same observations as the OP, and that there's increasing pressure on men's looks. So your comment is unnecessarily defensive and antagonistic.



SaladDays said:


> But men aren't any better than that, it's just that instead of attractiveness the measure for them is masculinity, which is even worse because it has both physical attributes to it


I don't really understand the whole masculinity angle, because it's the same for women. Feminine = attractive for women. The more hyper-feminine she looks the more universally attractive she's considered (golden ratio face, waist hip ratio and all that).



SaladDays said:


> and personality attributes.


Just to clarify, it's misleading to suggest women aren't judged on personality either because they're judged all the time for showing masculine behavior or lacking feminine behavior.

But I get the point that it may be especially hard to put on a dominant, confident act when you have social anxiety. Pressure to be 'alpha' etc...

But last time I checked that's not what the thread was about. It was about looks specifically.


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## nepnep247 (Feb 25, 2016)

SaladDays said:


> your link isnt working and i wont be your sexual fantasy cartoon girl :s


she's a vidoe game character and cartoons dont exist in japan


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## Nernef (Nov 21, 2015)

When guys who never get approached or talked to by any girls and always get shot down, ignored and friendzoned at best it's little wonder they start to question their looks more. Looks do matter a lot in reality for both genders! In this age of social media and even the plainer or overweight girls getting positive comments about their looks on facebook ect. They think they are hotter than they are and become less likely to settle for a guy in their own looks range and thirsty better looking guys will still want them anyway. 

The hottest guys will get the hottest girls generally, the average guys without SA maybe do ok and even some uglier guys with supreme confidence or that are have money and status going for them. The other guys will be left out in the cold unless they can compete and be chosen over another male. Even if they can become better looking, if they still retain the same personality they may struggle to get in a relationship or even get a hook-up still. It'll only get harder the older they get, that's life though.


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## CaptainPeanuts (Oct 29, 2015)

Men do not worry to the extent of putting makeup on. **** that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

No way. The only thing men are super self-conscious about physically is penis size and how well their penis works. That and height. Some better looking guys might get upset when they start going bald I suppose. 

There are a few exceptions to this but in general this is correct.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

komorikun said:


> No way. The only thing men are super self-conscious about physically is *penis size and how well their penis works. That and height*. Some better looking guys might get upset when they start *going bald* I suppose.
> 
> There are a few exceptions to this but in general this is correct.


No, there are multiple things men care about way more than those, and are bullied for, and develop lifelong insecurities about. We just don't get to talk about it.


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## KILOBRAVO (Sep 17, 2011)

komorikun said:


> No way. The only thing men are super self-conscious about physically is penis size and how well their penis works. That and height. Some better looking guys might get upset when they start going bald I suppose.
> 
> There are a few exceptions to this but in general this is correct.


mostly wrong. my d is the last thing I worry about frankly.
I've never been conscious of my height either.

I am fairly obsessed and count looks/ grooming important. 
I do know that I have been noticed or asked about by women and have gotten compliments.. when I usually hear this from a friend of a friend etc. ..
a year ago I did get called " fit" .
if I didnt take care of myself... I'd look scruffy and would not get compliments.


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## Skeletra (Aug 30, 2012)

The media industry seems to be made to make women insecure. I think its wildly more common for women to be insecure about their looks (and to put more wight into that). On one page they say "real women are curvy" or some "Be proud of your natural body bs*", on the next page "10 minute workout for a perfect body", "30-day air diet. Get your bikini body" or "Try this makeup, cover it all over your ****ing face to hide all your imperfections"
As a woman, if you're ugly, you're practically worthless. Nobody wants you if you're not pretty. 20 years as the butt of the joke is a lot more convincing that 5 people online saying "Aww, no you're not ugly" and 10 people asking for a quick ****. And women asking for opinions on their look "are just fishing for compliments" even if they actually look like a hagfish.
Sure, many men are insecure as well. Men are regularly spoken of as uglier, and they're "supposed" to just accept it and brush it off as "ruggedness" or rely on their sense of humor. People tend to be more honest in male rating threads because people think they can handle it, this probably makes it more valid to make such as a guy.

*bs because some women don't have natural curvy bodies and don't fit in the "natural beauty" category AND because the magazine and adverts will still try to make her pursue some smoothskinned photoshop project.

And yes, I may be a tinsy little bit drunk.


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## faustian1 (Mar 6, 2016)

Oh, for sure we are. In the past, however, we would do almost anything to cover that up.

Now, in "modern" times, we men have come out of the closet and been much more obvious about our narcissism.

Of course, this answer does not apply to that fraction of the male population that last bathed two weeks ago, and who can't bother to change clothes very often. There are fractions of both male and female populations who fit this description.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

KILOBRAVO said:


> mostly wrong. my d is the last thing I worry about frankly.
> I've never been conscious of my height either.
> 
> I am fairly obsessed and count looks/ grooming important.
> ...


I don't see guys go nearly as crazy as women get over their looks.

Like one time I pointed out a zit on my sister's face and she got quite pissed at me. Another time, I said that the alcohol she drinks has plenty of calories in it and she got so annoyed, she stormed off out of the apartment in the middle of night.

And I see on this forum and others where women go absolutely nuts over calories and what they eat. They will write several paragraphs on how they are so pissed at themselves for eating a bag of doritos. Just go on and on and on about how they now need to jog for 2 hours to lose those doritos calories. And how they are so disgusted with their body that they don't want to have sex and blah blah blah.

The vast majority of people getting plastic surgery are women. Vast majority of people with anorexia are women. I see a lot of guys who seem to really not care how they look much at all. They have pot bellies, scruffy beards, unattractive clothing, and $10 hair cuts. I don't see guys shaving/waxing off all their body hair, spending hundreds of dollars on expensive hair cuts/hair dye jobs, getting their nails done, etc.


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## blue2 (May 20, 2013)

Well I'm a fat drunk and I don't care ..


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## Evo1114 (Dec 9, 2012)

Yeah, this definitely still goes to women. Until dudes start taking an hour to get ready every morning. 

If somebody told me I looked like crap, I'd probably assume they were joking and not really give a damn, but if somebody said it to the average girl, tears would ensue most of the time.

I'm a natural 10, so I don't have to spend too much time primping, but when I do it just takes maybe 3 minutes at most with hair. If I have a zit or something, I'll just make sure there's no white puss visible. If so, I'll rip that thing off my face and not really be concerned about concealing it with a gallon of makeup.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

These men, they are not men.


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## Mr Fluff (Sep 16, 2014)

Rotting said:


> When guys who never get approached or talked to by any girls and always get shot down, ignored and friendzoned at best it's little wonder they start to question their looks more. Looks do matter a lot in reality for both genders! In this age of social media and even the plainer or overweight *girls getting positive comments about their looks on facebook ect. They think they are hotter than they are* and become less likely to settle for a guy in their own looks range and thirsty better looking guys will still want them anyway.





komorikun said:


> No way. *The only thing men are super self-conscious about physically is penis size and how well their penis works. That and height. Some better looking guys might get upset when they start going bald I suppose.*
> 
> There are a few exceptions to this but *in general this is correct*.


:lol It's amusing you both believe you know what the opposite gender "thinks" about stuff, because you really don't.


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## TenYears (Jan 15, 2010)

There's no doubt in my mind that women are made to be more insecure about their looks (through peer pressure, beauty magazines, the internetz, tv). It's really not even that subtle anymore, and hasn't been for a long time imo. I worry about my daughters' self-image. I worry about one of them not eating enough. I worry about them worrying too much about how they look (they are both pretty skinny, one of them is like super-petit). She's 5'6 already (she's almost 13) and she's borderline underweight according to her bmi. She is soooo skinny. We will sit down at bfast, lunch, dinner on the weekends when I have my kids and my dad and I will go out of our way to make different things...hopefully stuff she likes. And half the time she just doesn't eat, hardly at all. I worry about her, very much. But I've told my parents to not make it an issue. Don't make an issue where there's not one, by constantly pointing out that she's not eating. Do _*not*_ single her out. But my ex-wife and I and everyone is very aware it could become an issue and we're watching it, very closely. I pray to God it doesn't become an issue. (but I think it already is)

I think women are still way more self-conscious of how they look. I mean, I can only judge it from a guy's POV. But it really doesn't seem like it's changed all that much since I was a kid, and that was like 30, 35 years ago.


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## Nernef (Nov 21, 2015)

Holds The Key said:


> :lol It's amusing you both believe you know what the opposite gender "thinks" about stuff, because you really don't.


I know right? Especially that komorikun person! >


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## Untermensch (Mar 8, 2016)

visualkeirockstar said:


> Why not? We're the ones who have to do the approaching.


this


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## regimes (Aug 24, 2011)

Holds The Key said:


> Hmmm, um, no. :no
> 
> Males might be acting in more self-conscious ways regarding their appearance than in the past... and that's reflected in the increasing number of males seeking validation for their appearance online. So, yeah, that bit is changing.
> 
> ...


^ yep
we are faced with WAY more pressure to be pretty from a way younger age. there is a reason eating disorders tend to have higher numbers in young females, and why the diet and hygiene industry tends to market towards women.


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## HilarityEnsues (Oct 4, 2012)

OP, you're thinking of metrosexuals. I prefer to call them pretentious douches.


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## Neal (Jan 14, 2012)

rdrr said:


> Even on SAS men are posting ad nauseum about their looks, seeking approval etc.


You know, I think thats because guys wont get complimented on their looks quite as often unless they specifically ask for it. You look at Facebook and if an attractive woman posts a selfie dudes will rush to tell them how beautiful they are. It happens so much they start to get pissed if you tell them that. Ive been known to get weird comments such as "you look like a guy from Africa. Like a real African which is cool" or "You dress up well" But tbh I think women yeah will be more self conscious about it for the simple fact that we make such a big deal out of how they look. Every. Damn. Time.


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## visualkeirockstar (Aug 5, 2012)

Because men are ugly.


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## theCARS1979 (Apr 26, 2010)

it depends, whos tall enough, whos balding and cant deal with hair loss like me, and went and did a hair transplant. Who had weight problems and other self conscious things to deal with


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## Acheron Black (Mar 14, 2016)

rdrr said:


> I think there is a shift occurring, to where men are more self conscious about their looks than women.


Idk about MORE, but I agree that there is becoming an equal pressure to be more self conscious about your looks. 
Men and women aren't self conscious about the same things, their bodies are different. But the amount of self consciousness is pretty equal for many men, and I expect it to be the norm pretty soon ,if it is not already.



> I sometimes peruse those threads on reddit where people ask to get rated, or ask if they are ugly, and honestly I see mostly men posting on there.


I've noticed the same. I think the amount self-consciousness is the same. It's disheartening to see some of the women that replied to this thread assert that, no, in fact men do not feel this way, that their experience/self-consciousness is actually worse.

I think maybe these posters are assuming the stereotype that men don't look at themselves in the mirror harshly, or nitpick over their details, which we do too, unfortunately.



> Maybe it's just a low self esteem thing and trying to pinpoint reasons why things are the way they are. Or maybe a shift in gender roles where there is more competition amongst men for approval of their peers they desire romantic relationships with. The internet sure has made looks the number 1 priority in dating these days.


I think you are right that men have been expected, by both sexes, to not appear self-conscious, as a male exhibiting this trait is seen as weak by many men and women, even though it is a universally felt emotion.

I think social media also plays a role, we post pictures (well not WE, neurotypicals, I mean) of ourselves on FB and Instagram with friends in group photos to look popular, doing popular things. So I think you are also right that the approval of peers has become more significant on men in this regard also, that your looks and social standing are really important now.



> Sadly, us men don't have any of that magic powder (makeup) that women do, so we have really work out asses off to look at least somewhat decent, unless genetically gifted. *We have to work with what is given to us and make the best of it.*


I especially agree with the bold though, there is not much we can do with a our faces, aside from shave or grow a beard. You are stuck with whatever your face looks like.

I think many men are pressured for the "masculine" physique, the V-shaped torso, and to have the muscles. If you are overweight, while there are BBW campaigns saying that big is beautiful for women, there really isn't an equivalent for men.

I think you can make a direct comparison to the pressure to look masculine and muscular with the female pressure to be thin and fit. Both require a lot of work and dedication to achieve.


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## andretti (Jan 2, 2016)

i dont know i can only talk about myself personally. im insecure af. oh how i wish i was thin. i wish i was good looking . i run everyday and im obsessed with working out. im tryin to look my best constantly. i cant have my shoes dirty. i have to always be buying new clothes because i feel people are going to look down on me if i wear the same things often. i always have to match and im always so worried about my appearance . its cause im insecure. its still doesnt help. i dress better then many people i know but it doesnt help me no matter what i do.

every time i see a mirror or my reflection on windows when im running on the streets i have to look at myself. im so insecure, so self conscious it bugs me . i dont like myself like that . i try to change but i cant.


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## coeur_brise (Oct 7, 2004)

Maybe. But I find men are very conscious about their sex lives and worry about it a lot more maybe, than looks. I could be wrong.


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## Acheron Black (Mar 14, 2016)

coeur_brise said:


> Maybe. But I find men are very conscious about their sex lives and worry about it a lot more maybe, than looks. I could be wrong.


How many girls have heard "Am I the biggest you've ever had?"

What else are you supposed to say but yes.

That's the male equivalent of the female question, "Do these jeans make my butt look big?" lol.


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## Acheron Black (Mar 14, 2016)

^^ Except to the female question, the answer is an emphatic "No!" lol.

You might get brownie points from the man if you say "Yes!" to him like that though lol.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

For whatever it's worth, I'm currently in an adolescent psychology class right now, and we just happened to talk about this yesterday. According to our textbook and professor, there have been studies proving that adolescent girls are more self-conscious about their looks than adolescent boys.


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## Acheron Black (Mar 14, 2016)

hmweasley said:


> For whatever it's worth, I'm currently in an adolescent psychology class right now, and we just happened to talk about this yesterday. According to our textbook and professor, there have been studies proving that adolescent girls are more self-conscious about their looks than adolescent boys.


Gender studies and humanities courses at many universities are well known to teach liberally progressive slanted views.

It is not surprising that the feminist teaching of women having it worse is taught there, even in the West in 2016.

The people that write the textbooks get to choose the statistics they publish. If someone such as yourself for example graduates and enters the publishing world with your degree, you are likely to also push the liberal world view, as that is what you were taught in college. Which is what your liberal professor is probably hoping for.

What is the one location you will find the most censorship in a Western country? A college/university campus.


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## saline (Feb 16, 2011)

Rise of Social media/ the internet etc means that even the 'unattractive' girls gets lots of compliments and validation based on their looks.
So They now think that they are hot stuff and only want to date guys that look like the latest celeb heart-throb whereas in times before, they'd maybe settle for the uglier guys who are more on their looks level.
So now more guys are competing for even the less attractive girls and without looking good, they don't stand a chance and they know it. So guys get more and more self conscious about their looks.
If a girl just wants sex, she doesn't 'need' to be good looking really. Most guys really aren't picky when it comes to sex!!
But if a guy wants one-night-stand (and more guys want this than girls) then typically he needs to be very good looking.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Acheron Black said:


> The people that write the textbooks get to choose the statistics they publish. If someone such as yourself for example graduates and enters the publishing world with your degree, you are likely to also push the liberal world view, as that is what you were taught in college. Which is what your liberal professor is probably hoping for.


The vast majority of the textbook describes studies that support two opposing views. This is actually one of the few areas where that doesn't happen, and having read the vast majority of the textbook, that makes it seem, to me, that there aren't studies that have proven otherwise. At one point, they even describe past views that homosexuality was abnormal right alongside the newer views that it's normal.

The book does go on to say that this difference only holds true for white and Hispanic adolescents. In other ethnicities it says that there has been no gender difference found.


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## Acheron Black (Mar 14, 2016)

hmweasley said:


> The vast majority of the textbook describes studies that support two opposing views. This is actually one of the few areas where that doesn't happen, and having read the vast majority of the textbook, that makes it seem, to me, that there aren't studies that have proven otherwise. At one point, they even describe past views that homosexuality was abnormal right alongside the newer views that it's normal.
> 
> The book does go on to say that this difference only holds true for white and Hispanic adolescents. In other ethnicities it says that there has been no gender difference found.


I'm glad to hear your textbook provides opposing viewpoints, that is very refreshing to hear.

I do wonder why it is acceptable in academia to point out the areas where women have it worse, but to do so for men it is deemed offensive.

I haven't read your textbook, but on this issue, I would like to see it say that body issues are faced by both sexes. I think it's fair to say that research on boys body self image is lacking because it is mostly seen as a women's issue.

Fortunately I found some articles that support that view.

https://www.commonsensemedia.org/blog/boys-and-body-image










http://www.today.com/health/body-image-isnt-just-girl-thing-boys-suffer-too-2D79592420


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## k_wifler (Sep 27, 2006)

My experiences in school were completely one-sided, as only women ever commented on how men looked. I've only been criticized for my appearance by women, and only women seemed to alter their opinion and behavior toward me solely based on my appearance. I have never seen any males in my age group ever make a scene about someone else's appearance, but I still frequently see women publicly rage out about the smallest things. It made me very self conscious growing up, but I'm starting to get over it. I only critique other people's appearances if asked, or only in the form of helpful suggestions.


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## hmweasley (Sep 12, 2013)

Acheron Black said:


> I haven't read your textbook, but on this issue, I would like to see it say that body issues are faced by both sexes. I think it's fair to say that research on boys body self image is lacking because it is mostly seen as a women's issue.


It does talk about body image being an issue boys face as well. It's just that it also states that girls tend to worry about it more than boys overall. It doesn't say that boys don't experience it. In fact, it says more or less the opposite.

The book also states that how adolescents feel about their appearance is the biggest overall indicator for self-esteem in both genders, even if girls worry more about their looks.

I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that tons of people of both genders struggle with self-esteem in tons of different ways, and keeping that in mind is more important than anything else. Arguing over which gender is most insecure about their appearance seems kind of pointless when people of both genders struggle with it, and it's going to vary so much on an individual basis on top of that.


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## acidicwithpanic (May 14, 2014)

I don't necessarily think that they're more self-conscious than women, but men now compared to a couple of years ago seem to care more about their appearances. Especially when it comes to male athletes, they're pressured to have a very specific physique, sometimes developing eating disorders trying to attain the perfect body and musculature in order to perform well in sports. There seems to be a growing number of reports where football coaches try to starve their athletes.


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## Chelsalina (Oct 15, 2014)

I think women are more self conscious but because we have makeup to cover up imperfections it's not really a big deal


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## Euphoric (Mar 11, 2016)

Men will never be as insecure as women, because as a woman in society your looks are your worth. There are many shallow reasons that women might pursue men; the man is attractive, he's successful, he makes a lot of money, etc. So if said man is not very attractive, he can still have things going for him, like a good career or a steady income. But if a man finds a woman physically unattractive, that is basically the end of it. 

Think about how often you see an unattractive man with a hot girl by his side. And then think about how often you see a hot guy dating an unattractive girl. I think you will agree that one of these scenarios is far more common than the other. I mean, look at someone like Hugh Hefner who is definitely not someone most people would find very attractive, but has had a bunch of gorgeous wives. I mean what is the likelihood that they all really married him for love?

But you don't see attractive men vying for ugly rich girls. That's just not something that happens, because women aren't valued for money or for success even nearly as much as they are valued for their looks. Women are so majorly objectified, all of the time. You don't even have to be one of those angry internet feminists to see that. It is so blatantly obvious. Men are lusted after and wanted for a variety of reasons. Women, more often than not, are wanted purely for their looks. So if we don't have looks going for us, it's easy for us to feel like we are worthless to men. 

Another example is the portrayal of women in the entertainment industry. Think about actors like Jack Black. He's really not very attractive. But everyone loves him as an actor, because he's ****ing hilarious. Or what about Jonah Hill, or Michael Cera, or any other male actor you can think of that isn't really very attractive, but has great movies because they are still seen as funny and/or entertaining. 

Now think about the most popular female actors. How many of them are unattractive? Because I can't think of one.

As a guy, you can rest assured that even if you're not attractive, you can be funny, or successful, or incredibly intelligent, or wealthy. But as a girl? You're hot, or you're not. And that's it. 

So it's just not possible for men to feel insecurity on the same levels that women do. Yes, it is still a severe problem for many men, and there are still ridiculous expectations for men in our society. But for women, it's just a whole different level.


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## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

Euphoric said:


> Men will never be as insecure as women, because as a woman in society your looks are your worth. There are many shallow reasons that women might pursue men; the man is attractive, he's successful, he makes a lot of money, etc. So if said man is not very attractive, he can still have things going for him, like a good career or a steady income. But if a man finds a woman physically unattractive, that is basically the end of it.


Being wanted for your job/social status/career isn't really any less shallow or any better than being wanted for your looks. They're both incredibly shallow.



Euphoric said:


> Another example is the portrayal of women in the entertainment industry. Think about actors like Jack Black. He's really not very attractive. But everyone loves him as an actor, because he's ****ing hilarious. Or what about Jonah Hill, or Michael Cera, or any other male actor you can think of that isn't really very attractive, but has great movies because they are still seen as funny and/or entertaining.
> 
> Now think about the most popular female actors. How many of them are unattractive? Because I can't think of one.


Rebel Wilson, Amy shumer, Sarah Silverman. Just to name a few.



Euphoric said:


> As a guy, you can rest assured that even if you're not attractive, you can be funny, or successful, or incredibly intelligent, or wealthy. But as a girl? You're hot, or you're not. And that's it. .


One can be all those things while being ugly regardless of gender. It's not like if you're a ugly woman, your brain turns to mush.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

gunner21 said:


> One can be all those things while being ugly regardless of gender. It's not like if you're a ugly woman, your brain turns to mush.


Not literally no, but society is a macrocosm of the majority of heterosexual men and women's preferences.. (Exceptions to the rule need not apply.)



> This is a real dilemma. You're undoubtedly a great catch. You can teach us a thing or two. You are a go-getter and worthy of everyone's respect. But if that go-getter side ends up emasculating your man, or makes him feel insignificant, or second-guessed, he's not really getting what he wants out of a partner. Men want to feel masculine. We want to feel needed. And with a generation of women who pose questions like "Are Men Necessary?" it's pretty difficult for us to enjoy our role as men. This doesn't mean you should play dumb, or be weak and needy, no more than the nice guy should start acting like a jackass. It might mean, however, turning off some of the things that make you "successful" at work. This is a bitter pill to swallow, perhaps even a double standard. Still, it doesn't change the fact that "hard-driving, opinionated, and meticulous" are not on most men's lists of ideal feminine traits.





> Now, one of the most important signs of a man's power is his intelligence. It is the most pervasive expression of power because it touches every aspect of a man's life and facilitates all other expressions of power. For example, an heir to a large inheritance has financial power, but without the savvy to invest it wisely, that power will be squandered. A man might be physically strong, but unless he knows how to fight technically, he will be beaten soundly by much smaller, weaker opponents (the martial arts demonstrate this). Or a man might have all the social confidence in the world, but unless he is smart and discerning enough to know how and when to wield it, he will alienate those around him.
> 
> Intellectual strength is also instrumental in developing other strengths or powers. A man who is smart enough to understand the biological mechanisms behind dieting is going to be a much more effective in his workouts than the stereotypical dumb jock. He will see faster and better results, and will end up being physically stronger (all else being equal). Or a man who is sharp enough to observe and understand social dynamics will eventually gain more leverage over social situations than will a stupid but naturally confident person; his presence will become more commanding. Or again - more simply - smart men are more successful at their jobs and make more money than unintelligent ones.
> 
> ...





> No men were willing to admit to avoiding powerful women in their love lives. Then again, I guess I wouldn't expect them to: Who admits to feeling emasculated? Tellingly, though, while every man I asked claimed he himself was cool with powerful women, each also said that other men aren't. Hence the Drake conundrum: He's cool with powerful women, but he assumes he's the exception.
> 
> "You're not trained, as a man, to be thought of as 'second fiddle' in a relationship and dudes are very self-conscious about their own success, in a vacuum," one man theorized. "So often times, it's like, well, if I'm not peak successful, at least I'm successful-ish to someone, as in, the woman that I'm with. I guess it's just intuitive to me. Women aren't considered men's equals in society. Why would it be different in dating?"





> The next time a man tells you that he's attracted to intelligent women, you might want to ask him whether he's ever actually dated one.
> 
> No, that's not a slight on the female of the species. Instead, it's the findings of a new study, which suggests that men state their theoretical preference for intelligent women only to then change their minds in the cold light of the dating arena.
> 
> ...


Obviously you can reverse everything you see here for the average woman's preferences in men and then that's why intelligent men are more respected/admired than intelligent women.


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## k_wifler (Sep 27, 2006)

I'm going to hold out for an equal rather than settle for someone who is limited by gender. The only girls I ever spent time around were the most intelligent ones, the kind and compassionate ones who relate to others in a heuristic manner. Keep all of that gender role nonsense in the bedroom where it belongs. Gender is vestigial as far as I'm concerned, but it is pleasant, so I'll tolerate it for now.


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## Acheron Black (Mar 14, 2016)

Euphoric said:


> Men will never be as insecure as women. But if a man finds a woman physically unattractive, that is basically the end of it.
> 
> Now think about the most popular female actors. How many of them are unattractive? Because I can't think of one.
> 
> ...


I don't know about these assumptions.

Rebel Wilson and Melissa McCarthy are just two quick examples.

I don't know why saying women having these issues worse is acceptable, but saying men having something worse bothers women.


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## Acheron Black (Mar 14, 2016)

hmweasley said:


> It does talk about body image being an issue boys face as well. It's just that it also states that girls tend to worry about it more than boys overall. It doesn't say that boys don't experience it. In fact, it says more or less the opposite.
> 
> *The book also states that how adolescents feel about their appearance is the biggest overall indicator for self-esteem in both genders, even if girls worry more about their looks.*
> 
> I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that tons of people of both genders struggle with self-esteem in tons of different ways, and keeping that in mind is more important than anything else. *Arguing over which gender is most insecure about their appearance seems kind of pointless when people of both genders struggle with it, and it's going to vary so much on an individual basis on top of that.*


I can agree with this, and I am glad to hear that your textbook covers the range of issues and isn't biased.

I think the bolded areas basically sum up the important parts of the issue of body self image. Thanks for your responses.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

Euphoric said:


> As a guy, you can rest assured that even if you're not attractive, you can be funny, or successful, or incredibly intelligent, or wealthy. But as a girl? You're hot, or you're not. And that's it.


But women don't need to care about that, because men will date them regardless. A guy needs to jump through the extraordinary hoops that women lay out and meet the godly standards. That's going to make guys quite insecure, knowing every part of their body and every part of their life is under critical scrutiny by a woman who's not even up to his level.


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