# New Star Wars Movie *spoiler warning*



## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

I thought this movie had high production value but story was mediocre. Overall a disappointment for me. I doubt I will be seeing the other ones in theater. 


Spoiler: Ray beating Han Solo's son in the end felt so stupid. She had no previous training on how to use the lightsaber and then all of the sudden beats a master of darkside. This movie had very little explanation for anything.


Staff edit: included spoiler warning in thread title


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## TuxedoChief (Jan 11, 2015)

I haven't seen it, and probably won't in the theater. I just spoiled it for myself on the internet. 

Rey is going to be related to Ren, I'm calling it right now. The series signature fetish for limb removal is also gonna appear at least once in this new trilogy, I know it.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

TuxedoChief said:


> I haven't seen it, and probably won't in the theater. I just spoiled it for myself on the internet.
> 
> Rey is going to be related to Ren, I'm calling it right now. The series signature fetish for limb removal is also gonna appear at least once in this new trilogy, I know it.


Fin is a way more interesting character than Ray. Has an actual backstory and you get a feel for his character in his performance. It's unfortunate that he gets completely friend zoned by Ray.

I see nothing redeeming about Ray as the main protagonist. I feel like the story would have been more entertaining with Fin as the next Jedi.


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## Charmander (Sep 5, 2012)

The next film will be by another director I think, so you might like it more.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

Charmander said:


> The next film will be by another director I think, so you might like it more.


They just need to do more with Rey as a character. I felt nothing from her. And if she's going to be the main character then she needs actual development.


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

Rey is apparently a jack of all and master of all trades.She knew how to operate tech. she should never have known how to operate, being a scanvenger in a desert planet, she could kick two guy's asses that were twice her size AND beat a knight who has been trained by both Luke and Snoke and is known to have Skywalker blood? This makes absolutely no sense, her being able to use the force, alright I'll give a pass on that but you don't learn fighting techniques just like that it takes years to master them, just look at HEMA

The Starkiller base made no sense - You'd think after two Death Stars the republic would have strict regulations regarding similar bases yet the Resistance apparently knows of this threat and the Republic didn't.Never throughout the movie did it actually feel like a real threat anyway, nor did anyone care about the Republican planets that were destroyed since they were never in the movie (also, declaration of war much?).
A blockade like the one on Naboo would have made much more sense and we would've gotten some better space battles IMO, it would also constitute a real threat unlike the magical Starkiller base that appeaered out of nowhere.

Kylo Ren never should have taken his mask off

Other than that I liked the movie


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## peterbones (Dec 21, 2015)

It was a good movie. Excellent at some points, and not so good at others for me. The worst part was Han Solo's death. It was predictable and it was too early for the best character in the movie.



Ignopius said:


> Spoiler: Ray beating Han Solo's son in the end felt so stupid. She had no previous training on how to use the lightsaber and then all of the sudden beats a master of darkside. This movie had very little explanation for anything.


I'd argue they were on equal ground, because Kylo probably hasn't been challenged with any real fighting being that there isn't a Jedi around to oppose him.


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## Staticnz (Mar 25, 2013)

I just watched it.

I definitely feel that Star Wars is just overdone at this point. The prequel trilogy really ruined it for me, the Darth Vader story had such amazing potential and it was just so miserable and ruined by George Lucas, and I can't really get back into Star Wars. Not unless they make another KOTOR game or something.

The movie only had to be half decent to smash all expectations. It was half decent, but overall it was a rehash of the same old sh*t. They repeated the whole "n00b becomes awesome" (from some backwater planet) theme that made no sense in this movie as Ig. pointed out, and they repeat in every movie. He should have completely crushed her. 

The had the same tired I'm your son I'm your father thing. The guy who played the bad guy followed the prequel theme of having a smarmy pasty whiny white child be a sith lord, instead of somebody cool. Are all sith lords like pasty emo teenagers with daddy issues!?!? He had a breathing thing and face mask for no reason other than to be scary like Darth Vader.

The same consequential death in the first movie. The same flying around shooting things in X-wings from the first movie. The same "where is this droid?" chase. 

The First Order itself was a total rehash of the empire. 

Everything was rehashed. At least even Jar Jar Binks was new.


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## Scrub-Zero (Feb 9, 2004)

Charmander said:


> The next film will be by another director I think, so you might like it more.


A lot of people say that. But we're down to 4 prequels/sequels now and none of them really felt like Starwars. At this point it has become a milking series. Disney will roll out movies after movies for profit and to entertain 12 year old kids... If that wasn't obvious enough when they purchased the brand from good old George.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

peterbones said:


> It was a good movie. Excellent at some points, and not so good at others for me. The worst part was Han Solo's death. It was predictable and it was too early for the best character in the movie.
> 
> I'd argue they were on equal ground, because Kylo probably hasn't been challenged with any real fighting being that there isn't a Jedi around to oppose him.


That's absurd. Rey doesn't even have a rudimentary grasp of the force or lightsaber combat. That was literally the first time she swung a lightsaber. They were not on equal ground at all. Go back watch the first scene of Kylo when they introduced him as this bad *** maniac above everyone else. Just magically poof being strong because your Luke's son isn't good enough for me.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

@Staticnz completely agree with everything you said. All the prequels were more or less bad too. We haven't had good Star Wars movies since the originals.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

Ignopius said:


> I thought this movie had high production value but story was mediocre. Overall a disappointment for me. I doubt I will be seeing the other ones in theater.
> 
> Spoiler: Ray beating Han Solo's son in the end felt so stupid. She had no previous training on how to use the lightsaber and then all of the sudden beats a master of darkside. This movie had very little explanation for anything.
> 
> Staff edit: included spoiler warning in thread title


Exactly! It was just great production value but the story is worse than mediocre--it's just plain terrible.

They copy/paste the New Hope story but no Yoda. Imagine A New Hope but where Luke realizes he has the force and suddenly can do all kinds of Jedi tricks and duels Vader the first time he even touches a lightsaber. Oh, and he wins.

#1

Kylo Ren was trained by Luke Skywalker himself! I don't care how wounded he was, he should have totally destroyed a storm trooper and a Jedi who had ZERO training in the force.

The whole thing breaks the story of all the movies. You have to be trained to use the force. You don't just start using Jedi mind tricks without any training.

When Jedi are kids they are already practicing blocking blaster shots blindfolded. Anakin was considered too old to start training as a Jedi. So Kylo must have trained since he was a little child. It's just so absurd to have him fight someone with ZERO training.

#2

Kylo Ren is conflicted. This is story telling 101. You can't have a conflicted villain. Villains need to be committed to evil. Kylo Ren seems like some angry teenager. If this movie copies A New Hope it does so with a weak version of Darth Vader. Darth Vader was the epitome of pure evil. We get no such villain here.

#3

Snoke? Really? Gollum is the new evil Sith Lord? Snoke is hardly a menacing name.

#4

The planning for the Death Star/Planet attack was absurd. For the whole plan to work they need the shields lowered. They trust some guy they just met that somehow he can lower the shields. If he doesn't they all die. But hey let's just take his word for it.

It turns out he has no idea how to lower the shields. He doesn't care that everyone else will die because he wants to save girl he just met and instantly fell in love with.

But no problem, luckily they run into someone who they can coerce into lowering the shields. It just takes one person to lower the shields on an entire planet Death Star.

#5

There are no Jedi in this movie. There are maybe 12 X-wing fighters at the end. A giant star destroying planet is brought down by 12 X-wings and a few people who sneaked in. Why not write something more convincing?

#6

Han Solo had to die. OK. But why not let him die while fighting his son. Vader fought Luke twice. It was very dramatic. They could have had Kylo reluctantly fighting Han and then finally mustering the evil needed to finish him. At least, Han would have gone down fighting.

And the whole idea that Han would think that he could talk to his son and change his mind about....being a sith Lord is absurd. He basically tries to say, "Hey son, this Vader thing is just phase, come home with me." Then he gets stabbed.

What annoys me is that there are so many talented writers in the world. Look at Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad. Why can't they hire good writers?


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

I don't think I've heard of a story where the main villain needs to train to get better. Almost every story that I know has a powerful villain, a villain so powerful that you don't believe the hero will ever succeed. I've never heard of a story where both the villain and the hero need to get better through training. That's so idiotic. 

What's strange is the movie opens with Kylo Ren doing something we've never seen any Jedi or Sith Lord do--stopping a blaster shot in mid air and leaving it frozen there. He can also read minds of those around him. So, you start thinking he's a real bad*****. Then he takes his mask off and starts whining about feeling the pull of the light. Then he loses a duel to someone who just realized they had the force a day ago. Someone, despite whatever other combat knowledge they had, someone who had never held a lightsaber before. Never. 

It doesn't matter that Kylo Ren was injured. Why would you injure your big bad villain right before a duel? Then have him lose? To a noob? 

Where does the story even go from here? You just destroyed the Death Star for a third time making the bad guys seem pretty incompetent to have allowed the same thing to happen three times! I bet they're already building a new bigger Death Star as we speak.


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## NuthinSimple (Jul 5, 2015)

Haven't seen this, but I knew it was going to suck because well... it's 2015 and everything sucks.

I have to disagree though, I think the prequels were good.


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## Omgblood (Jun 30, 2010)

lol at the new star wars movie


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## Staticnz (Mar 25, 2013)

AngelClare just completely decimated this thread.


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## TenYears (Jan 15, 2010)

Gotta agree with @AngelClare on every point.

Also, part of my childhood died with Han Solo.


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## JustThisGuy (Mar 24, 2012)

SaladDays said:


> Rey is apparently a jack of all and master of all trades.She knew how to operate tech. she should never have known how to operate, being a scanvenger in a desert planet, she could kick two guy's asses that were twice her size AND beat a knight who has been trained by both Luke and Snoke and is known to have Skywalker blood? This makes absolutely no sense, her being able to use the force, alright I'll give a pass on that but you don't learn fighting techniques just like that it takes years to master them, just look at HEMA
> 
> The Starkiller base made no sense - You'd think after two Death Stars the republic would have strict regulations regarding similar bases yet the Resistance apparently knows of this threat and the Republic didn't.Never throughout the movie did it actually feel like a real threat anyway, nor did anyone care about the Republican planets that were destroyed since they were never in the movie (also, declaration of war much?).
> A blockade like the one on Naboo would have made much more sense and we would've gotten some better space battles IMO, it would also constitute a real threat unlike the magical Starkiller base that appeaered out of nowhere.
> ...


 I didn't like Ben removing his mask, either, but then we got more depth about who he is. Namely: Ben Solo. It showed he wasn't just a vague, generalized big bad. He's just some young wannabe Sith that has fits of rage. He's still fighting the light inside of him. He's complex. I liked him. He's different and he stands out.



AngelClare said:


> I don't think I've heard of a story where the main villain needs to train to get better. Almost every story that I know has a powerful villain, a villain so powerful that you don't believe the hero will ever succeed. I've never heard of a story where both the villain and the hero need to get better through training. That's so idiotic.
> 
> What's strange is the movie opens with Kylo Ren doing something we've never seen any Jedi or Sith Lord do--stopping a blaster shot in mid air and leaving it frozen there. He can also read minds of those around him. So, you start thinking he's a real bad*****. Then he takes his mask off and starts whining about feeling the pull of the light. Then he loses a duel to someone who just realized they had the force a day ago. Someone, despite whatever other combat knowledge they had, someone who had never held a lightsaber before. Never.
> 
> ...


YES! I agree Starkiller base was a bit redundant, but it was supposed to be. We have nukes with EMP problems, yet why would the Empire, or First Order, stop making Death Stars/Starkillers?

Also, Kylo was majorly injured, killed a classic, beat up a dude and kinda/sorta lost to a very special Force user. But he didn't lose. I mean, come on. It wasn't too crazy for Rey to win out.

They're clearly cousins, and I believe Rey is thus a Skywalker. Her Force powers are by default higher levels and special. Kylo even said find her quickly, the longer she's out and about, the more powerful she can become. We're dealing with a Anakin/Luke special class of Force user, than yes, Rey is on her way to becoming a Herculian Jedi.


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## Harbinger1 (Feb 23, 2014)

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS


Saw star wars 7 and I am very disappointed. I did not go in with high hopes knowing that jj abrams was the director, but even I didn't expect this: A complete but vastly inferior copy of A new hope. All the same plotpoints were followed. Death star 3.0? Wasn't it already boring the second time? Han Solo died exactly when obi wan died etc etc. It's not necessarily bad (but it was), it's just so lazy.


Even standing on it's own, it's problematic. The story was rushed. It felt like everything took place in just one single day, leaving no room to get to know the characters. There was no sense of bonding between the characters, like even the prequels manadged to do to some degree.
Finn was boring! He was obviously meant as the new han solo, but the old one was still around. And Han got all the good lines anyway.
Carry fisher still can't act and her leia was flat and emotionless.
Keilo ren needed to be badass. Star wars was never meant to be deep or subtle. It's evil empire, sorry first order, needs a big, evil villain. What we got was a whiny teenager who throws tantrums. Giant gollum was interesting, but hardly got any screentime.

If the prequels were good for one thing it was universe building. They introduced a big universe full of worlds and federations etc. 7 failed at this. Everything seemed to be taking place in one solar system. The new Death star can't move but destroyed the republic in like 2 seconds and the movie just moved on (when Solo died it just moved on as well). The rebel base seemed next door too and they could even see the death star blast from the kantina-rip off planet.
The movie had a huge budget, but it just didn't show. The planets and sets were unimaginative. Just sand and snow and trees. 
Lucas shouldn't have left. It felt more like guardians of the galay than star war.


And then there was the random stupidity. One storm trooper shuts down entire plant death star. The end figh. I could go on.

I hope they try something actually Original with part 8, because everything is better than a lame remake.


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## Ignopius (Mar 19, 2013)

Staticnz said:


> AngelClare just completely decimated this thread.


Yep. I agree with him on everything though.

Another problem was the character of Rey in general. What's there to like about her? All she embodied was toughest. Other than that she barely ever had anything good to say. Fin completely overshadowed her as a character. He had a compelling backstory (Being brainwashed by the First Order from birth), he witnessed a friend die on the battlefield, and he was that sort of awkward guy that was unsure of himself. I knew who Fin was. Rey on the other hand was a disappointment of a protagonist.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

Harbinger1 said:


> If the prequels were good for one thing it was universe building. They introduced a big universe full of worlds and federations etc. 7 failed at this.


I rewatched the prequels yesterday. They are full of new aliens, new ships and big scenes. The fight between Qui-Gon, Kenobi and Darth Maul is the best fight in the entire series.

The prequels have bad dialogue and overuse CGI but they are very ambitious. Huge scenes and huge epic battles. And full of imagination...


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## JustThisGuy (Mar 24, 2012)

I made a Star Wars: Ep. VII thread. If anyone's interested. Lol. This always happens to me. Soon there'll be BvS threads and Deadpool threads and...yea.

Which is funny, because it's hard to get people to talk about the films, but then they go and make a thread of their own. Perplexing.

I figured this would be a "****-on" Star Wars thread. "Rey was too powerful. Bleh." Maybe there's a reason for that.

I've made plenty of arguments about the First Order's Starkiller Base. I mean, yea, it's a larger Deathstar, but do you really think Empires and military industrial complexes stop making the same mega-weapons when one gets blown up? No. The war machine keeps going. Sigh. No fun anymore. This was so superior to the prequels and I here people saying VII is worse. Ha! Try a film class. But that's irrelevant, I guess. If you didn't like it, you didn't like it.

Character development, story is full and succinct, character motivations, story-arcs and segments flowed, and a diversity of characters to boot. I enjoyed myself.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

OK just got back from watching this at the cinema. Oh my god the whole walk home I was like must cling on to all the points I have OK. In no real order:

I like Finn, thought he was cast well.

Rey was alright, I assume they'll develop her more in future films. The actress Daisy really reminds me of Keira Knightly in her mouth movements/the way she speaks sometimes (as a random aside I noticed.)

How were Finn and Rey so good at using lightsabers when they'd never used them before? As you said the fight between Rey and Kylo Ren made little sense either.

They dragged that bit with Han Solo on, that's not a criticism because obviously that part was meant to be dramatic but it was obvious the second he started approaching him where that was going to go, so you know. Just ended up like 'oh ****ing do it already'

I wondered if the films might look towards creating a redemption story, now I don't see how they're going to do that realistically, it will take some good writing if they try - and:

based on how rushed the relationship/friendship between Rey and Finn was, I'm not convinced unless something changes in regards to writing, that they can pull that off.

Felt like something was missing from the middle of the film.

Character development was a bit lacking. Only good part in this regard is how Rey said something like 'you're scared of not being as good strong as Vader' and then later when he kills Han Solo he basically goes further than Vader ever did - it's sort of maybe like backwards original trilogy.

I feel like stories need nuanced villains to be good, if he just ends up being generic bad dude of darkness even though Star Wars is overly black/white (which is why I'm not more of a fan,) that would be mega **** imo. Voldermort for instance was pure crap as a villain but it was alright because there were other more interesting nuanced characters to deter from that.

Generally I felt like stuff was missing. My friend said something like there was too much action and it was too flashy (he compared it to superhero films) but I didn't think that.. Though I was expecting that what with JJ Abram's involved... But still just something missing.

And I get that it's part of a new trilogy? But still.

I'm not sure about Adam Driver yet. I was always kind of curious, I've only seen him in a couple of episodes of Girls. He was the only tolerable character in that, and that's saying a lot all things considered about his character haha but that show is garbage. He's been in some indie films I haven't seen too.

^ eye candy gonna eye candy though.

But no it wasn't terrible, I'm hard to please.



SaladDays said:


> Rey is apparently a jack of all and master of all trades.She knew how to operate tech. she should never have known how to operate, being a scanvenger in a desert planet, she could kick two guy's asses that were twice her size AND beat a knight who has been trained by both Luke and Snoke and is known to have Skywalker blood? This makes absolutely no sense, her being able to use the force, alright I'll give a pass on that but you don't learn fighting techniques just like that it takes years to master them, just look at HEMA
> 
> The Starkiller base made no sense - You'd think after two Death Stars the republic would have strict regulations regarding similar bases yet the Resistance apparently knows of this threat and the Republic didn't.Never throughout the movie did it actually feel like a real threat anyway, nor did anyone care about the Republican planets that were destroyed since they were never in the movie (also, declaration of war much?).
> A blockade like the one on Naboo would have made much more sense and we would've gotten some better space battles IMO, it would also constitute a real threat unlike the magical Starkiller base that appeaered out of nowhere.
> ...


I think they needed to humanise him a bit, if he killed Han with the mask on it would have been less meaningful because you don't get the struggle that's going on on his face.

I did think that should have been the initial reveal though, not sure why he took it off earlier than that... But I'll let that slide cause I suppose they needed that for when his weakness/insecurities were exposed by Rey. Ah I'm weighing it up like how more dramatic it'd have been to do that for the first time when Han asked vs the necessary line about how he was struggling to live up to Vader... No. Don't think there's any way around that.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Also I'm dying now:


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## Arbre (Mar 9, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Rey was alright, I assume they'll develop her more in future films. The actress Daisy really reminds me of Keira Knightly in her mouth movements/the way she speaks sometimes (as a random aside I noticed.)
> 
> How were Finn and Rey so good at using lightsabers when they'd never used them before? As you said the fight between Rey and Kylo Ren made little sense either.


She reminded me of Keira Knightly too. I figured Finn could use a lightsaber because of his stormtropper training. I've seen online posts and someone I went with say it made no sense that Rey could use it and force powers but she doesn't seem to remember her childhood and was mysteriously dropped off on a planet. Maybe she had some Jedi training before.


Persephone The Dread said:


> I wondered if the films might look towards creating a redemption story, now I don't see how they're going to do that realistically, it will take some good writing if they try - and:


That's what I thought it was going to about. I could see Kylo Ren sacrificing himself at the end to save everyone.


Persephone The Dread said:


> I'm not sure about Adam Driver yet. I was always kind of curious, I've only seen him in a couple of episodes of Girls. He was the only tolerable character in that, and that's saying a lot all things considered about his character haha but that show is garbage. He's been in some indie films I haven't seen too.


I thought his tantrum scenes were cheesy, even for Star Wars. That has more to do with the writers than the actor though.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Eggshell said:


> She reminded me of Keira Knightly too. I figured Finn could use a lightsaber because of his stormtropper training. I've seen online posts and someone I went with say it made no sense that Rey could use it and force powers but she doesn't seem to remember her childhood and was mysteriously dropped off on a planet. Maybe she had some Jedi training before.
> 
> That's what I thought it was going to about. I could see Kylo Ren sacrificing himself at the end to save everyone.
> 
> I thought his tantrum scenes were cheesy, even for Star Wars. That has more to do with the writers than the actor though.


That would make sense I guess, there is a lot we don't know about her backstory at the moment.

And yeah it did get a bit much, I'm guessing they wanted the character to come across as being impulsive and having anger issues leading to poor decision making, and tried to highlight it that way.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

AngelClare said:


> Exactly! It was just great production value but the story is worse than mediocre--it's just plain terrible.
> 
> They copy/paste the New Hope story but no Yoda. Imagine A New Hope but where Luke realizes he has the force and suddenly can do all kinds of Jedi tricks and duels Vader the first time he even touches a lightsaber. Oh, and he wins.
> 
> ...


I actually disagree with you completely here on the bolded bit, especially about the part of 'being completely committed to evil' nuanced villains that are about more than evil are far more interesting. A character who is purely evil is boring as **** imo. Like a character who is purely good (aka superman, he doesn't thrill me usually.)

I'd like to see more darker/serious characters though, but I think since they're going for pg-13 and all that it's difficult. Snoke is ridiculous.


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## Fever Dream (Aug 18, 2015)

JustThisGuy said:


>


Nope, now she's a Disney General!


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## Ckg2011 (Aug 9, 2011)

The film to me is 5 Stars. 

Rey is the awakening in The Force Awakens, I cannot wait for Episode VIII.


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I actually disagree with you completely here on the bolded bit, especially about the part of 'being completely committed to evil' nuanced villains that are about more than evil are far more interesting. A character who is purely evil is boring as **** imo.


You're just describing a weak and ambivalent villain. Give me an example of a good story with a villain who wasn't committed to his actions and choices.

In the end Vader turns against the emperor but he gave few clues that he was conflicted.

The dark and conflicted hero is common today. I don't think a conflicted villain has the same dramatic effect.

A great example of a villain is Chigurh in "No Country for Old Men." Or even Heath Ledger's Joker.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

AngelClare said:


> Exactly! It was just great production value but the story is worse than mediocre--it's just plain terrible.
> 
> They copy/paste the New Hope story but no Yoda. Imagine A New Hope but where Luke realizes he has the force and suddenly can do all kinds of Jedi tricks and duels Vader the first time he even touches a lightsaber. Oh, and he wins.


The big thing that I disagree with you, is that kylo ren is not darth vader. Darth Vader was truly powerful, he had been using the force for decades, he was trained, he was a killer. Darth Vader was the final boss, he was the Big Bad of star wars. Kylo Ren is not the endgame, he's a baby villain. He is more experienced then Rey, but he's not a force god like Vader was supposed to be. In the originals Luke had to train to reach a level where he could fight Vader and we saw Luke's growth, I think these movies we're going to see the growth of both Ren as a villain as well as Rey as a hero.

I don't think Kylo losing that fight was a plot hole or mistake for the movie either. I think it's easily explained by Luke's lightsaber. Obviously Kylo knew what it was, and obviously it had some power. When Rey touched it she had flashbacks, when Kylo tried to take it it wouldn't move in the snow. Holding Luke's lightsaber somehow protected both Rey and Fin from Kylo's force use, and helped unlock the force in Rey. Maybe we'll get an explanation in the next movie, this one did end with Rey holding out the lightsaber to Luke and shaking!! So the way I see it, a force user who has to fight without the force, is not going to win. Rey knows how to fight with weapons, Fin knows how to use weapons. Kylo relies on the force.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

AngelClare said:


> You're just describing a weak and ambivalent villain. Give me an example of a good story with a villain who wasn't committed to his actions and choices.
> 
> In the end Vader turns against the emperor but he gave few clues that he was conflicted.
> 
> ...


The Joker isn't pure evil though or committed to it.. He just represents chaos and is committed to highlighting it. As an extension of this he doesn't have a clear consistent backstory (unlike many villains) and lies a lot. Heath Ledger's joker is just a critique of the Batman's desire to maintain order in a chaotic universe. I think good villains tend to challenge the main character's motivation and reveal weaknesses in them, heroes do the same for villains, potentially.

I'm not saying the villain should necessarily be conflicted or even switching sides randomly. I'm just saying 'I'm evil for evil's sake' is boring and simplistic. Most villains have a separate motivation. I think evil is too abstract a concept personally.

Anyway I would assume this film is a build up since it's a 3 part story. Unfortunately it's more like half way through his story, so Snoke is shown as kind of just a weak, vague representation of evil with none of the seductiveness of the emperor since he doesn't need to be - we've skipped that part.

Kylo will probably end up becoming more of a villain in the next film, there might be an ongoing power struggle between him and Hux as well.


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## RandomGentleman (Aug 4, 2014)

Ignopius said:


> Spoiler: Ray beating Han Solo's son in the end felt so stupid. She had no previous training on how to use the lightsaber and then all of the sudden beats a master of darkside. This movie had very little explanation for anything.le


Ren had been shot with Chewies bowcaster, which the movie made a point of showing is really powerful. I bet I could easily beat a well trained HEMA fighter if they had been shot in the groin with a sniper rifle before the fight, and I don't even have any experience fighting. Rei does. Not with lightsabers sure but a lightsaber is just a laser sword. Not that difficult to use.



AngelClare said:


> Ex
> 
> Kylo Ren is conflicted. This is story telling 101. You can't have a conflicted villain. Villains need to be committed to evil. Kylo Ren seems like some angry teenager. If this movie copies A New Hope it does so with a weak version of Darth Vader. Darth Vader was the epitome of pure evil. We get no such villain here.


What nonsense is this? You can't have a conflicted villain? Excuse me? Are you honestly saying Kylo should have been a bland, boring copy and paste "I'm evil because evil" stereotype? Klyo Ren wants to be Darth Vader, yet realizes he comes nowhere near him in terms of power. This fuels his insecurities and leads to him lashing out in rage to try and put on the facade of being a powerful Sith like Vader is. That's far more interesting character wise then him just being a copy and paste of Vader.

Kylo isn't even the main antagonist. He's Snoke's enforcer. If you want the "epitome of pure evil" You have Space Hitler and Snoke.

Also, what's up with all the complaints about "Oh why do they keep building new Death Stars?" What? Because they're machines that can destroy entire planets! Do you know where we'd be if everyone adopted this method of thinking? Oh, this incredible innovation changed warfare as we know it but ended up being destroyed because of design flaws. Let's just completely scrap it because our design was flawed instead of working to improve it. That's how progress works, right?


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## Sprocketjam (Feb 16, 2014)

She beat Kylo Ren because he was very badly injured and she is naturally stronger than him in the force. Kylo Ren is not a Sith Lord, he is not the big bad. He is just misguided and a confused pawn of Snoke, the real villain (as far as we know).

This is the first movie in a trilogy. Characters will continue to develop. A lot of this stuff is also explained in past movies/shows/books, they're just not hitting you over the head with it.

And LOL @ AngelClare. Can't have a conflicted villain? Funny stuff. The best villains are always the conflicted ones. You really think black and white characters are all you can have in a story? Thank god you're not a writer.


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## Elixer (Sep 11, 2014)

Are there any theories on who Rey really is? I keep hearing she's the daughter of Luke Skywalker but I really, REAALLLYY don't think that's the case. It's too obvious and I don't know how that would work...


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## Scrub-Zero (Feb 9, 2004)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Also I'm dying now:


lol. I can imagine him pulling off Voldo like moves.


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## SilkyJay (Jul 6, 2015)

Banned again? Ehh you probably got reported by every or should I say the same handful of raging females on this site that jump at that opportunity... amazing how affended people get and act like their life is in danger or they've been so affended that it completely affecting their stay on this site for the thread you made earlier.... I think your just disgusted with the opposite sex, which I can understand... not surprising at all despite you talking about having bad dreams and thoughts about torturing. who knows though. 

Not surprised on both fronts, and I can't believe this movie broke all kinds of records as well.... shows just what people eat up these days. Remake remake remake, no new movies can garner this type of hype or momentum bc everyone nowadays is such a simple bich.

#starwarsthejediknightreturnsonceagainin2017foryetanothersequel #thisishowIhastag #isthislinkingtotwitter?


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## Skeletra (Aug 30, 2012)

I saw it and I loved it.
I loved BB-8. Really cute little robot. 
I loved how Rey, as a scavenger, likely took the time to learn everything about what she was scavenging and how she's quite the survivor. Like you kind of have to be if you are all alone in that kind of environment..
I liked how Kylo Ren/Ben was so conflicted. He has some serious anger issues, and I kind of like that. He seemed very badass in the start with the mask on, but he has his emotionally weak moments where he's just a conflicted teenager, making him unstable. I feel that opens many possible roads. He can either join up with the good guys eventually, stay a bad guy or he could become seriously dangerous.

I didn't like how R2D2 just randomly powered up and saved the day though. That bit felt a slight bit rushed.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SilkyJay10 said:


> Banned again? Ehh you probably got reported by every or should I say the same handful of raging females on this site that jump at that opportunity... amazing how affended people get and act like their life is in danger or they've been so affended that it completely affecting their stay on this site for the thread you made earlier.... I think your just disgusted with the opposite sex, which I can understand... not surprising at all despite you talking about having bad dreams and thoughts about torturing. who knows though.
> 
> Not surprised on both fronts, and I can't believe this movie broke all kinds of records as well.... shows just what people eat up these days. Remake remake remake, no new movies can garner this type of hype or momentum bc everyone nowadays is such a simple bich.
> 
> #starwarsthejediknightreturnsonceagainin2017foryetanothersequel #thisishowIhastag #isthislinkingtotwitter?


I assume you must be talking about me (among others.) I didn't report him, though he does annoy the **** out of me. Didn't even see what got him banned actually. I've seen most of his threads/posts though.

If I knew him better before his meltdown I might have more patience with him - might because when you spend a considerable amount of time on a site witnessing similar bull**** for years it drags you down and I'm not a therapist - but I'll leave that for users that know him.


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## SilkyJay (Jul 6, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I assume you must be talking about me (among others.) I didn't report him, though he does annoy the **** out of me. Didn't even see what got him banned actually. I've seen most of his threads/posts though.
> 
> If I knew him better before his meltdown I might have more patience with him - might because when you spend a considerable amount of time on a site witnessing similar bull**** for years it drags you down and I'm not a therapist - but I'll leave that for users that know him.


I seriously wasn't talking about you at all. Not at all...zilch. I usually enjoy your posts for what i've read and well i don't even know where you stand on woman vs men stuff or pertaining to him or similar issues. you usually do a better job than most keeping an open mind I think. Tbh I've always kind of liked you, from the things I've seen you post. Quite intelligent you seem. not that you care.

and frankly I dn't even know who I think reported him besides like 2 or 3 users. I need to keep my nose off these type of things. Not sure why I wrote what I did here as he has had some troubling posts, but I empathize with being ganged up on by some of the females potentially on this site. I guess it makes sense that that thread would be reported, it was moreso the idea of thinking about woman here and I guess men too jumping at the chance to get people in trouble ya know. Bc these people exist. bad timing on my part here, my apologies for bringing it up. I need to stay on topic more.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SilkyJay10 said:


> I seriously wasn't talking about you at all. Not at all...zilch. I usually enjoy your posts for what i've read and well i don't even know where you stand on woman vs men stuff. you usually do a better job than most keeping an open mind I think. Tbh I've always kind of liked you, from the things I've seen you post. Quite intelligent you seem. not that you care.
> 
> and frankly I dn't even know who I think reported him besides like 2 or 3 users. I need to keep my nose off these type of things. Not sure why I wrote what I did here as he has had some troubling posts, but I empathize with being ganged up on by some of the females potentially on this site. I need to stay on topic more. I guess it makes sense that that thread would be reported, it was moreso the idea of thinking about woman here and I guess men too jumping at the chance to get people in trouble ya know. Bc these people exist.


Thanks well, I appreciate that. Though I shouldn't still be here I continue to come here out of habit and it's easy I guess. Thete are good parts of this site, but I spend too much time here and feel so weary like an old man...

I don't know if people are always reporting things tbh I think the mods often just find stuff and decide to remove/lock it as well.


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## regimes (Aug 24, 2011)

i need a star wars game involving rey as the central character in the style of KOTOR, stat.


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## David777 (Feb 6, 2011)

Didn't read the whole thread but I'm pretty sure its been said. The movie was pretty much StarWars with a few things changed. Felt more like fan service than anything. A new hope, droid with valuable information chased by the empire, then good guys blow up empires planet destroying weapon, beloved character killed by vader at the end... And if you've seen TFA then you know the rest. 

Now having said all that... in truth... I nerdgasmed! lol Loved it! 10/10!


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## AngelClare (Jul 10, 2012)

I have a great idea for the next movie. Rey should fight Kylo Ren but this time she loses and gets her hand cut off. He says to her, "Rey, I am your brother. Search your senses, you know it's true." Also Poe gets frozen in carbonite.

Oh, Luke will be killed by Kylo Ren but Luke comes back stronger as a force spirit guiding Rey who will be the last Jedi.

(And The First Order is building an even bigger Death Star. This time A Solar System Killer. )


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## eukz (Nov 3, 2013)

AngelClare said:


> Oh, Luke will be killed by Kylo Ren but Luke comes back stronger as a force spirit guiding Rey who will be the last Jedi.


Nah, here's a better idea. Rey and Luke move to Dagobah, and start training. Then in Episode 9 Luke peacefully dies, his body disappearing as he becomes one with the Force...


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## JustThisGuy (Mar 24, 2012)




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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

eukz said:


> Nah, here's a better idea. Rey and Luke move to Dagobah, and start training. Then in Episode 9 Luke peacefully dies, his body disappearing as he becomes one with the Force...


Even better idea, Luke trains Rey right there on that beautiful mountain planet. They spend years together completely alone, and the combination of the beautiful scenery, and his awesome beard, leads to them falling in love and having children, who they train in the force. Kylo Ren completely leaves them alone and gets defeated eventually by the resistance but that happens off screen and we don't really hear about it.


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## Charmander (Sep 5, 2012)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> Even better idea, Luke trains Rey right there on that beautiful mountain planet. They spend years together completely alone, and the combination of the beautiful scenery, and his awesome beard, leads to them falling in love and having children, who they train in the force. Kylo Ren completely leaves them alone and gets defeated eventually by the resistance but that happens off screen and we don't really hear about it.


So where does Jar Jar fit into this story?


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

Charmander said:


> So where does Jar Jar fit into this story?


Hahahaha


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## MCHB (Jan 1, 2013)

Charmander said:


> So where does Jar Jar fit into this story?


A 5 second scene when they blow up another planet! "Meesa gonna die!" *KA-TOOM!* :grin2:


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## Fever Dream (Aug 18, 2015)

JustThisGuy said:


>


He makes a few points, but his basic argument paraphrased is 'it's a fantasy and you are all a bunch of hater nerds so shut up'. At least that's what I got out of it.

Idk, I think all movies are on some level a fantasy so I don't completely buy his argument. Even ignoring that, it doesn't mean that good story telling should be ignored because the story has mystical powers and bizarre aliens. And as much as I enjoyed The Force Awakens, many of the story elements really did lack polish.


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## Hank Scorpio (Oct 28, 2008)

JustThisGuy said:


> I've made plenty of arguments about the First Order's Starkiller Base. I mean, yea, it's a larger Deathstar, but do you really think Empires and military industrial complexes stop making the same mega-weapons when one gets blown up? No. The war machine keeps going. Sigh. No fun anymore. This was so superior to the prequels and I here people saying VII is worse. Ha! Try a film class. But that's irrelevant, I guess. If you didn't like it, you didn't like it.


Well I didn't want to just ***** constantly in your thread.
Starkiller isn't just a rerun it's actually weaker than the death star. Once the sun in that system is used up it's useless. The death star needed fuel but it could move around so it could have theoretically been used indefinitely.

I'm not a film critic and I'm not interested in film classes. All I care about is a good story. The prequels had a new story. Episode VII was just a remake.



Elixer said:


> Are there any theories on who Rey really is? I keep hearing she's the daughter of Luke Skywalker but I really, REAALLLYY don't think that's the case. It's too obvious and I don't know how that would work...


You can't really expect Abrams to come up with something that's not obvious. 
The only reason she could really be that strong would be if she was Luke's daughter or if she was another force created human like Anakin.



Charmander said:


> So where does Jar Jar fit into this story?


He was the director.


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## Elad (Dec 6, 2009)

Don't really know why everyone loves it so much, everything was too easy and rey was op, so little to no suspense. enjoyed all actors except Carrie who seemed out of place.

7/10 imo

Please sway me starwars fans.

Oh and the entire time I kept thinking about the KOTOR games and how awesome revan, the ancient sith temples etc would have been. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elad (Dec 6, 2009)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> Even better idea, Luke trains Rey right there on that beautiful mountain planet. They spend years together completely alone, and the combination of the beautiful scenery, and his awesome beard, leads to them falling in love and having children, who they train in the force. Kylo Ren completely leaves them alone and gets defeated eventually by the resistance but that happens off screen and we don't really hear about it.


Great setup for Starwars Wrong Turn 5: the inbreds awaken
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

Elad said:


> Oh and the entire time I kept thinking about the KOTOR games and how awesome revan, the ancient sith temples etc would have been.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I heard that Luke Skywalker is guarding a sith temple on that planet and that's why the first order wanted his location, not for luke but for the sith relics. Idk if that's just way out there fan speculation or what sources they have backing it up, I didn't care to look into stuff like that. Just remembered reading that when I saw your post.


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## Elad (Dec 6, 2009)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> I heard that Luke Skywalker is guarding a sith temple on that planet and that's why the first order wanted his location, not for luke but for the sith relics. Idk if that's just way out there fan speculation or what sources they have backing it up, I didn't care to look into stuff like that. Just remembered reading that when I saw your post.


God I hope so. The Kotor lore and sith are too awesome to throw away for kylo "edge master" ren.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewHabits (Oct 26, 2015)

The massive hype in the US is the only reason why this movie is so successful. 53% foreign at the box office is not enough to beat Avatar let alone Gone with the Wind (the mother of all movies). It's not a movie you want to see several times in the cinema and it's more for younger people. James Cameron is the only living director who knows how to make successful movies for all ages and countries.


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## SneekySnee (Mar 25, 2015)

The Force Awakens may have had a lot of similar plot points to A New Hope but it was amazing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustThisGuy (Mar 24, 2012)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> I heard that Luke Skywalker is guarding a sith temple on that planet and that's why the first order wanted his location, not for luke but for the sith relics. Idk if that's just way out there fan speculation or what sources they have backing it up, I didn't care to look into stuff like that. Just remembered reading that when I saw your post.


No, he's at the first Jedi temple ever. The ruins of. Back when they were called Jed'aii or something, thousands of years ago.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

NewHabits said:


> The massive hype in the US is the only reason why this movie is so successful. 53% foreign at the box office is not enough to beat Avatar let alone Gone with the Wind (the mother of all movies). It's not a movie you want to see several times in the cinema and it's more for younger people. James Cameron is the only living director who knows how to make successful movies for all ages and countries.


Avatar wasn't very good imo. It was visually stunning but the plot was weak. Lots of poorly handled elements - unobtanium didn't really make sense scientifically and the name sounds very lame (even if it apparently existed prior to the film,) It was basically Pocahontas with lame meathead American soldiers as a poor figurehead for decent villains.


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## Elad (Dec 6, 2009)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Avatar wasn't very good imo. It was visually stunning but the plot was weak. Lots of poorly handled elements - unobtanium didn't really make sense scientifically and the name sounds very lame (even if it apparently existed prior to the film,) It was basically Pocahontas with lame meathead American soldiers as a poor figurehead for decent villains.


Avatar was more of an event and experience than good movie, first of its kind and tbh no movie has looked better since in 3d which is telling.

TFA is riding on nostalgia and probably the widest and costly marketing/merchandising ever. We will see these 1.5bil totals often in the next couple of years as hollywood revives franchises. Has very little to do with story quality.

Can't wait to see it avatar 2 can bring what the first did to the table.

Also this was just a little rant not totally directed at your post since box office totals is something I enjoy following.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrWolfpac (Nov 2, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Avatar wasn't very good imo. It was visually stunning but the plot was weak. Lots of poorly handled elements - unobtanium didn't really make sense scientifically and the name sounds very lame (even if it apparently existed prior to the film,) It was basically Pocahontas with lame meathead American soldiers as a poor figurehead for decent villains.


The better description of Avatar is to call it Dances With Wolves in Space.


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## TuxedoChief (Jan 11, 2015)

mentoes said:


> "There was no father" is what Anakin's mother said in TPM. He was conceived by the Force. Very Jesus-like.


The mother of all cop-outs: The Force.


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