# anyone Agnostic?



## ThirdEyeGrind (Feb 7, 2006)

Believe me, I want to believe in god but its just so farfetched im don't know what to believe. I mean there had to be something that made everything but a magic guy in the clouds? come on now. I can honestly say that not one of my prayers has EVER been answered. Couple months ago a church was struck by lightning and burned to the ground. All the religous people say it was an act of god. If everything is an act of God why would he burn down the only place where wants us to go worship him? I'm not trying to start any debates on here but just wondering if there's others like me here.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

> Couple months ago a church was struck by lightning and burned to the ground. All the religous people say it was an act of god. If everything is an act of God why would he burn down the only place where wants us to go worship him?


What kind of church was it?


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## ThirdEyeGrind (Feb 7, 2006)

I don't know, does it matter?


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

In the right context, anything might matter. It would have been interesting.


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## Kardax (Dec 29, 2004)

*raises hand* I'm agnostic!

Religious people don't bother me, as long as they're open minded enough to realize that their way isn't the only way.

-Ryan


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## WineKitty (Nov 26, 2004)

Kardax said:


> Religious people don't bother me, as long as they're open minded enough to realize that their way isn't the only way.
> 
> -Ryan


The same can also be said in reverse...just a thought. :kiss


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## styler5 (Oct 7, 2006)

I am. I don't even know if I should consider the does-god-exist question important. No wonder I'm so indecisive.


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## march_hare (Jan 18, 2006)

Yep I'm agnostic


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## TheGecko (Nov 26, 2007)

Me too.


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## Anxiety75 (Feb 10, 2004)

One reason for people's doubts about God is the fact that so many bad things happen. Some people say it happens for a reason as if it was fate. I don't belive in fate and I don't believe God makes bad things happen but he ALLOWS things to happen that we do not always understand. Everything he does is according to his will. Part of the reason for the bad things that happens is because of the bad choices some people make. God gives everyone free will. But not everyone makes the right choices or some deliberately do things to cause harm to others. If God forced everyone to not do bad, in some way, it would not be heartfelt or sincere worship. If he allowed escape from every sort of problem we could not build up endurance and character. Churches still can burn-they are not physically immune, people still suffer, even people of Godly faith. It doesn't prove that God is not there. Anyway I say this with humility as I am not trying to cause you to feel like you must believe. I know at times I feel I am lacking faith but I am only thinking as a human and not as God because his thoughts are much different than us and so is his sense of justice.



AprilEthereal said:


> Believe me, I want to believe in god but its just so farfetched im don't know what to believe. I mean there had to be something that made everything but a magic guy in the clouds? come on now. I can honestly say that not one of my prayers has EVER been answered. Couple months ago a church was struck by lightning and burned to the ground. All the religous people say it was an act of god. If everything is an act of God why would he burn down the only place where wants us to go worship him? I'm not trying to start any debates on here but just wondering if there's others like me here.


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## Were (Oct 16, 2006)

probably that lightning was struck by zeus , you know he is the lightning master and he doesn't like churches. 

anyways i'm agnostic but i hate it , it's not helpful , it's boring , it's not fun. sadly it's the only truth.


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## Bon (Dec 24, 2005)

I am agnostic, having said this, just because I don't believe in "God" as some do, does not mean I don't believe in a force greater than myself. Personally, I don't believe, and this is not meant for debate, just my personal ideas, for me, I don't believe in the Bible as a concrete literal way we should live. I don't believe "The Bible says it, that's why" over the years, century's....I'm thinking things could have gotten lost in translations.

Not too long ago, I was told that I had to believe in God, if not, that meant I had no foundation in life. Rather amusing, considering, I do more for others, than anyone will ever know, not aspects I wish to disclose, I'm saying it here for purpose, I practice random acts of kindness, treat others as I want to be treated, I don't murder, I don't rape, I don't steal. The very person that told me this, was, well, not good, so I find it rather amusing.

I'm a parent, I love my daughter no matter what, I would lay down my life for her, as it states God gave his son....... My daughter does some things that I don't like, she stubborn, hardheaded, hard to control, did I mention, she's five... I will punish her, I can stay mad for a while, yet by very nature, most parents aren't going to throw their children into the pits of hell no matter what they do, so why would a "Father" do this. It makes no sense to me.

I have all the respect in the world for people that believe, no problem. I did laugh at ones that come to my door, when I did practice a religion "We'll pray for you" it was....Excuse me......Let me draw an outline of a body in chalk, throw religious pamphlets so the next time you're here, you'll know how I feel, again, I don't care that they're following their hearts, I just didn't like being insulted. Now, it really wouldn't bother me..........What's the saying, Who is without sin can cast the first stone.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Interesting to hear you refer to yourself as an agnostic, Bon. A year ago I was a hardened agnostic-atheist, somewhat smug, and from what I gathered, you and Penny were Christians. Now the three of us appear to be stuck in a chasm of doubt. 

I doubt the idea of a god for two reasons: he doesn't reveal himself in a way that could rationally be understood by humans (otherwise, there wouldn't be religious debates raging on over the civilization's history), and the world we live in is arbitrary and seemingly callous in so many ways (the black plague is a good example) and yet we all believe there is a divine plan behind it all. 

I've wondered if having a family would give me something to believe in. I haven't tried it out, so I can't say for sure. I just know that God isn't in the cards. I share Dave Matthew's sentiment: "I'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world."


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## Bon (Dec 24, 2005)

It's my understanding that you're suppose to have faith, he, "God" won't reveal himself in a way mere mortals can understand that's where faith comes in;-)

I fully understand, nothing else matters but a person's personal relationship with Jesus Christ, if, that's what you believe. Having said this, I've been stoned one too many times;-)

It's very interesting too me, I've informed, a couple friends that I was no longer of the Christian Faith, the look on their faces were priceless, they gave me the standard lecture, and that's fine, yet, from my perspective, I am still the same person I always was.

I deleted a few paragraphs, I was afraid I was starting to debate and that wasn't my intention.

Again, let me stress just because I don't believe in the standard way doesn't mean I don't have my own way;-)

Has anyone ever heard of Lilith, in Jewish Folklore, she was suppose to be Adam's First wife, she was made of Sand, his equal, but she was "Kicked out" because she wasn't submissive, and went to live in a cave, with all her things.";-))))))) she's now become an icon in many other areas, but I found this interesting. I can affiliate with her;-)

Having a family......For me, I'm on the fence. I'm not sure what to do with my daughter, I always thought I would raise her in the church, I really did, now, again, I don't know, I'm just concentrating on having her become a good person, I may take her a few times, so it's no less confusing for me;-) I want her to be able to explore all the avenues.


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## Clangrill (Dec 17, 2007)

I'm an aspiring Christian. I want so desperately to believe, but I need some kind of proof or sign. 

I meeting with a minister from "The church of god" later today. Hopefully, he can give me the guidance I need.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

Bon said:


> It's my understanding that you're suppose to have faith, he, "God" won't reveal himself in a way mere mortals can understand that's where faith comes in;-)


And that's where the difficulty arises. He gives us reason, and then allegedly communicates himself in a way that is indiscernable by reason. There is this chasm, as Hitchens and Harris points out, that is self-enforcing.

a lack of evidence = evidence. You can't defeat an argument like that but there really is no good reason to accept it.



> It's very interesting too me, I've informed, a couple friends that I was no longer of the Christian Faith, the look on their faces were priceless, they gave me the standard lecture, and that's fine, yet, from my perspective, I am still the same person I always was.


I can only imagine what my father would think if I outed myself as agnostic. He's opined that atheists are aholes. I had a friend who stopped talking to me because of my blasphemy, and a conservative brother whom I can even discuss religion with because I honestly think he resents being challenged.



> Has anyone ever heard of Lilith, in Jewish Folklore, she was suppose to be Adam's First wife, she was made of Sand, his equal, but she was "Kicked out" because she wasn't submissive, and went to live in a cave, with all her things.";-))))))) she's now become an icon in many other areas, but I found this interesting. I can affiliate with her;-)


She sounds like an admirable person.



> Having a family......For me, I'm on the fence. I'm not sure what to do with my daughter, I always thought I would raise her in the church, I really did, now, again, I don't know, I'm just concentrating on having her become a good person, I may take her a few times, so it's no less confusing for me;-) I want her to be able to explore all the avenues.


We can debate about the value of having a spouse (this woman I work with has been divorced three times and advises me against marriage because of her bad experiences), but I am more interested in the children-aspect. Knowing that you've helped someone, a person grow and mature. Doesn't that, at the end of the day, make life worth living? I guess my search for God is a search for something to believe in beyond myself. Sure, there is the fear of death. But I think the search is charged by something more subtle than that.

If I have kids, I'll let them believe anything they want.

A friend of mine from high school was agnostic. His mother was a lapsed Catholic turned pagan (native american religion of some sort). Her sister blamed his lack of belief on her shift to paganism -- even though, as far as I could tell, he was by nature very skeptical. Point being, you're going to step on some toes when you're not in lock-step with the majority.


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## Bon (Dec 24, 2005)

Clangrill said:


> I'm an aspiring Christian. I want so desperately to believe, but I need some kind of proof or sign.
> 
> I meeting with a minister from "The church of god" later today. Hopefully, he can give me the guidance I need.


I hope you find what you're striving for;-)


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## FillyPhile (Nov 28, 2007)

I am reminded of the child's honest definition of faith as "when you believe what you know ain't true." 

To me, agnosticism is the only rational and logical position unless one has direct, irrefutable proof of the existence of God or gods.


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## free thinker (Nov 11, 2003)

orpheus said:


> Interesting to hear you refer to yourself as an agnostic, Bon. A year ago I was a hardened agnostic-atheist, somewhat smug, and from what I gathered, you and Penny were Christians. Now the three of us appear to be stuck in a chasm of doubt.


I like the idea of continually analyzing the possibilities and keeping all options open. I would say I am probably less of a skeptic today than I was a year ago. I still don't believe that the god of the Bible exists(or any specific god for that matter) but I am not as willing to reject the various concepts of the afterlife as I was before. In addition, I now believe this existence is probably much stranger than I previously thought.

Seven weeks ago while I was driving on the highway in southern Utah, I mysteriously avoided what I considered to be certain death with an 18 wheeler headed towards me. This has led me to seriously question this reality. Basically, I was trying to pass another 18 wheeler but didn't have sufficient time to pass it. The next thing I remember (after presuming I was going to die) I was driving well ahead of the truck I was trying to pass. Based on my calculations of distances and speed, I figure I had only 3 seconds left to pass the truck and get over into the other lane. However, I still had about 20 feet to go to get to the front of his vehicle and my progress up to that point had been excruciatingly slow. Maybe one day I'll spend the money for hynotic regression so that I will have a better understanding of what actually transpired.


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## Bon (Dec 24, 2005)

free thinker said:


> I still don't believe that the god of the Bible exists but I am not as willing to reject the various concepts of the afterlife as I was before.


I am not good at quoting. I did manage to type a reply, and it's in cyber space, I hate it when that happens.

This is the way I feel, I don't believe in the same God as the Bible, I do believe in something. At times I think, when we're dead we're dead, on the other side, there has to be something, we can't be some mad scientist experiment;-)

BTW, how did you avoid the accident? I'm thinking you did?

Orph, don't listen to the woman at work, it's sad, of her marriages not one has been good, no good times, sad, usually when people have had a great relationship, they're more apt to step into another one.
Children, yes it is very rewarding, it's wonderful....See there has to be some type of creator, I often joke "God made us love our children so much, or else we would kill them.";-))))) It's wonderful at the end of the day and you know you did instill good in them, you know you helped them make the right choice;-) yet, if we don't teach them, how will they know what to believe, do you think we have to give our kids options? Explain different ways of life to them?

Why would you want to discuss religion with your brother? He sounds just like my ex in laws, your dad's view, is how many feel, I know your heart, I would think your father would too, it doesn't change who you are as a person.

Your friend.........Have those too.......I do like irking one "If a man steals a loaf of bread, is he still stealing" his reply is "Yes".....OK.....I think you can break the law and be doing the right thing, yet this very devout man hits on me whenever he gets the chance. For me.....I can't pick and chose what aspect of the Bible the pertains to me, I felt like a hypocrite, when I was Christian, I knew something was wrong, a circumstance, going in I knew it was wrong, to me, that's not right, as humans we screw up, but when you know it's wrong, and went against "Gods" will, how could I call myself A Christian, ask forgiveness, for something I purposely did, in my humble opinion, I don't know if that would fly, sure, I would forgive my daughter, eventually;-0

Ooops, I was starting to go into a debate amongst myself, had to hit the delete key;-)


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## free thinker (Nov 11, 2003)

Bon said:


> BTW, how did you avoid the accident? I'm thinking you did?


I have no idea how I avoided the accident. The last thing I remember, I was expecting to die in the head-on collision. The next thing I remember I was ahead of the truck I was trying to pass. I'm estimating(based on eventual location) that there was up to 15 seconds that were unaccounted for in my memory. Maybe the trauma was too much for my conscious mind to recall.....or could it be that something supernatural/otherworldly was involved?


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

free thinker said:


> Bon said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, how did you avoid the accident? I'm thinking you did?
> ...


I don't mean to be rude, but given the number of meaningless accidents that occur on a daily basis (some of them more absurd than others, such as a bus of children on the way to a church dying in an accident), don't you think that interpretation is a little arrogant? I mean, you'd have to assume that given all of the worthwhile people who were worth saving but were allowed to die tragically and way before their time, for some unknown reason a divine force intervenes for you especially.

It's like thanking God for escaping a bullet when your comrade was just shot before your eyes.


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## Summa (May 9, 2005)

I am agnostic. I was raised Catholic, but as I got older I started to really study and question the basis for what I had been taught. I just do not see any basis for believing in something because that happens to be the tradition in the part of the world where I was born.

I tend more towards thinking there is no higher power, but I do not describe myself as an atheist because being open minded is important. I am not omniscient nor infallible, so it would be impossible for me to say definitively that there is no higher power. In the same sense, I do not understand how people can believe that their religion of choice is specifically the *one* true religion, out of the thousands that have existed.


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## free thinker (Nov 11, 2003)

orpheus said:


> I don't mean to be rude, but given the number of meaningless accidents that occur on a daily basis (some of them more absurd than others, such as a bus of children on the way to a church dying in an accident), don't you think that interpretation is a little arrogant? I mean, you'd have to assume that given all of the worthwhile people who were worth saving but were allowed to die tragically and way before their time, for some unknown reason a divine force intervenes for you especially.
> 
> It's like thanking God for escaping a bullet when your comrade was just shot before your eyes.


I'm not sure how it can be an arrogant interpretation when I don't even believe in a higher power. Furthermore, just because I said it may be due to something otherworldly or supernatural doesn't mean that I am suggesting a "divine" being was trying to spare me. I've heard some people indicate to me that they believe it was likely angels or my spirit guide who were intervening on my behalf. I suppose this would be a rather typical explanation that many within the new age community would give. But the bottom line is, I just don't have an earthly explanation for what happened to me. It is still possible that at the last second one of the truckers swerved out of the way which somehow enabled me to pass the truck and avoid the accident. I really don't know because I can't remember what happened.

It is tragic to see wonderfully good and innocent people die in accidents while others who could be considered dispicable individuals somehow manage to avoid certain death. But it does happen and often(eg. drunk drivers). Maybe it all comes down to fate and that our deaths are going to happen at a certain time and place regardless. Could it be that life is just a computer program and my character is not programmed to be killed in a highway crash? It certainly appears that the afternoon when I experienced this near calamity was not my time and place to go.


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## orpheus (Nov 16, 2003)

free thinker said:


> orpheus said:
> 
> 
> > I don't mean to be rude, but given the number of meaningless accidents that occur on a daily basis (some of them more absurd than others, such as a bus of children on the way to a church dying in an accident), don't you think that interpretation is a little arrogant? I mean, you'd have to assume that given all of the worthwhile people who were worth saving but were allowed to die tragically and way before their time, for some unknown reason a divine force intervenes for you especially.
> ...





> Furthermore, just because I said it may be due to something otherworldly or supernatural doesn't mean that I am suggesting a "divine" being was trying to spare me. I've heard some people indicate to me that they believe it was likely *angels or my spirit guide *who were intervening on my behalf. I suppose this would be a rather typical explanation that many within the new age community would give.


You clearly indicated your apparent luck may have been the result of something else. Well, what something would that be if not some kind of supernatural force (ie, something that violates or is beyond the natural realm)? I just don't see the difference between a Christian who attributes events to God and a new-ager mysticist who attributes events to some other mysterious force. When both say, "something apparently intervened to save me" when so many people die arbitrarily is not only to be credulous but a tad arrogant. You say you don't know because you can't remember what happened. That's to be expected. You almost died and were probably disoriented and not very lucid during and immediately after the event. Knowing that and to still suggest something supernatural intervened on your behalf is, well, no different than a Christians who says God saved their rich butts while millions of black Christians in africa are dying of starvation or disease.



> I just don't have an earthly explanation for what happened to me. It is still possible that at the last second one of the truckers swerved out of the way which somehow enabled me to pass the truck and avoid the accident. I really don't know because I can't remember what happened.


I thought you read Dawkins book? :lol



> It is tragic to see wonderfully good and innocent people die in accidents while others who could be considered dispicable individuals somehow manage to avoid certain death. But it does happen and often(eg. drunk drivers). Maybe it all comes down to fate and that our deaths are going to happen at a certain time and place regardless. Could it be that life is just a computer program and my character is not programmed to be killed in a highway crash? It certainly appears that the afternoon when I experienced this near calamity was not my time and place to go.


Why was it not your time to go? Why was it the time to go for anyone else? Were they not expected to experience or do anything great for the remainder of their life to warrant an early -- and horrible -- demise? All this talk about life being a computer program or somekind of cosmic fate is the very mentality that bred religion. I just find it ironic coming from someone who goes by the name "free thinker"


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## free thinker (Nov 11, 2003)

orpheus,
First of all, by now, you should know better than to continue arguing this point in this forum. I'll be quite happy to continue this discussion with you in the society and culture forum. Secondly, I'm rather surprised that you are so far off base with your assessment of my commentary. I'll try to re-explain my position and refute your remarks in a new society and culture thread tomorrow.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass (May 4, 2012)

*Agnostic Too*

I'm agnostic too. I was born and spent the first twelve years of my life Christian, but now the logic of mind cannot accept religion. You're not the only one out there, though. There are one billion other non-religious people in the world just like us.


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## albrecht (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm agnostic too.


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## Foh_Teej (May 5, 2004)

you will probably find the idea of being agnostic, very very common among both atheists and theists alike. It's a little harder to get a religious person to actually admit agnosticism on account of confirmation bias but it is more common than it may seem.


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## euphoria04 (May 8, 2012)

Anxiety75 said:


> One reason for people's doubts about God is the fact that so many bad things happen. Some people say it happens for a reason as if it was fate. I don't belive in fate and I don't believe God makes bad things happen but he ALLOWS things to happen that we do not always understand. Everything he does is according to his will. Part of the reason for the bad things that happens is because of the bad choices some people make. God gives everyone free will. But not everyone makes the right choices or some deliberately do things to cause harm to others. If God forced everyone to not do bad, in some way, it would not be heartfelt or sincere worship. If he allowed escape from every sort of problem we could not build up endurance and character. Churches still can burn-they are not physically immune, people still suffer, even people of Godly faith. It doesn't prove that God is not there. Anyway I say this with humility as I am not trying to cause you to feel like you must believe. I know at times I feel I am lacking faith but I am only thinking as a human and not as God because his thoughts are much different than us and so is his sense of justice.


I'm not supporting a god who allows tsunamis to kill hundreds of thousands regardless of if it buys me a ticket into heaven.

I don't see how having faith in something is so impressive. I have as much reason to believe there are invisible saber cats in my living room right now as I do there is a god in the sky.

Also, agnostic to which religion? How can you know your choosing the right religion with the sheer number out there? Is it wrong to choose the wrong religion, especially when so many contradict each other?


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## tjames (Jan 31, 2012)

I use to be agnostic and I find it a perfectly acceptably way to live just like being an atheist and religious. I went through a point in my life were I didn't now if I believed in God or not. I had a desire to be spiritual but I was raised baptist and in baptism their is pretty much no other valid faith. If you didn't believe in Jesus Christ as not only your personal savior but the only son of God and that the entire bible was to be taken literally you were not a christian and were going to hell. My families preacher never preached this but the congregation enforced these ideas in different ways. 

As an agnostic I decided that any God I believed in would care more about me being a good person than simply accepting a few facts. Eventually I stumbled into Buddhism and feel in love. This returning to religion has led me to discover more liberal forms of Christianity that see the bible as an allegory than undeniable history.


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## Loveless (Apr 6, 2012)

I go to a church, and I believe in god and I even meet with someone eevry Wednesday who is a Christian with the church. it is a reformed Church so its relatively liberal. However as for me personally, I am not sure how much I buy into religion. But I believe there is a God. I really don't like how religion has all these dumb rules and how people believe the Bible is the ultimate word. I could care less about the Bible. I was an atheist for several years. I was raised Catholic. The thign about me is I believe very strongly in Science. I believe in Evolution, Natural Selection, all of that. I always feel though that there is a God. I have prayed before and I had some strange things happen. i've had enough weird experiences to make me believe there is a God. But I really don't care about religion. I classify myself as Christian-Other but Idk I think my beliefs are a bit harder to characterize then that. I will say though that I have more respect for most skeptics then I do believers.


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## PaysageDHiver (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm agnostic. I find unconvincing the reasons often given for belief in God, but I'm not confident enough to assert that God doesn't exist.


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## wordscancutyoulikeglass (May 4, 2012)

Loveless said:


> I go to a church, and I believe in god and I even meet with someone eevry Wednesday who is a Christian with the church. it is a reformed Church so its relatively liberal. However as for me personally, I am not sure how much I buy into religion. But I believe there is a God. I really don't like how religion has all these dumb rules and how people believe the Bible is the ultimate word. I could care less about the Bible. I was an atheist for several years. I was raised Catholic. The thign about me is I believe very strongly in Science. I believe in Evolution, Natural Selection, all of that. I always feel though that there is a God. I have prayed before and I had some strange things happen. i've had enough weird experiences to make me believe there is a God. But I really don't care about religion. I classify myself as Christian-Other but Idk I think my beliefs are a bit harder to characterize then that. I will say though that I have more respect for most skeptics then I do believers.


*raises hand* how can one not buy into religion AND believe in god? Religion may get twisted around within itself, but you cannot believe in a higher power without being religious. They go together.


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