# I don't really have social phobia. Some thoughts...



## anxiom (Jun 2, 2014)

*I'm not afraid of rejection. I'm afraid of shame. *

I have been thinking about my disorder again and I feel like I have some real clarity on what it is, what social phobia is, and what shyness is

My negative belief is that I am worthless because I am "weird, creepy, and pathetic". I could give a **** less about rejection as long as it doesn't happen because I am "weird". But when I feel like I am being exposed as a "weird, pathetic, creep", I feel incredibly ashamed. For that reason I am afraid of situations where this thought is triggered. In the past when I was much worse those situations included things like listening to music while alone in my room. But nowadays I can go many places and do almost anything, talk to people in a lot of situations, etc., without getting _very _triggered.

Why isn't it shyness? Shy people can manage situations that make them uneasy. It's a personality trait that makes some people more anxious in social situations than average and it's no big deal. Self-esteem has nothing to do with it. I want to point out here, however, that some people who seem shy are actually insecure. _*I**nsecure *_people think there is something wrong with them so they fear social situations where others might find out. But there is nothing wrong with their brains that makes them think that way. As soon as that insecurity clears up (and it often does) their "shyness" magically goes away.

Why isn't it social phobia (including AVPD)? People with generalized SA are terrified of rejection in almost any situation and for any reason. I'm not sure what causes the fear, but I think for some people it's the rejection itself, for some it's the disastrous consequences they think will follow the rejection, and for others its both of those things. Whatever the cause of the disorder, once rejection is no longer terrifying the problem goes away.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

All interesting points that raises one question that I ask of myself...

How important is the "label" of a specific diagnosis to treating it?


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## anxiom (Jun 2, 2014)

KyleInSTL said:


> All interesting points that raises one question that I ask of myself...
> 
> How important is the "label" of a specific diagnosis to treating it?


As it turns out, _*for me*_, very important. For one the typical sa treatments won't work for me since rejection phobia isn't the issue. But there's a much bigger reason. I wrote this post as an exercise to help me validate a certain idea of reality that I am developing - where I am a normal guy with a disorder. In my mind there are two possibilities: either I am a pathetic, creepy, guy who has little or no human worth, or I am a regular, worthy person with a serious psychiatric disorder. They can't both be true.

But, in order to prove that my disorder is REAL I have to define what it is. This brings me into the zone of people with social anxiety disorder and shyness. These problems are close enough to mine that I have to establish that I don't actually have either of them. Or else I have to figure out which one I have.

Now there's a problem. People look down on shy people and they treat people with social phobia as if they don't have a disorder, and just need to get over their "shyness". This is a major threat because if that's true then unless there is something radically different about the way my disorder works then it's likely I am just a "pathetic coward who just needs to get over it". And, ironically enough, that idea is triggering and reinforces my delusions.

So in order to validate that my disorder is real and establish the desired reality - one in which I am a normal guy who is sick, I have to a) explain what shyness is, b) explain what social phobia is, c) explain why I have neither, and d) explain why social phobia is a real disorder.

You might ask what is the purpose of trying to establish that I am sick, since I will continue to have delusions that I am creepy and pathetic anyway. The answer is, the more believable it is that I have a disorder, the less triggered I feel, and the less credible my delusions appear to be. This makes reevaluating my delusional thoughts a real possibility and takes away a lot of their power. Doing just that was the basis for all of the improvement I have made in the last year and a half. The result was a 50% drop in anxiety and shame.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

I believe I understand and I'm glad you have a rationale that still leads to an improvement path.

I would be more concerned with those that seek to label it as a serious condition (which it certainly can be), but more to resign themselves to it without working on it.


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## lisbeth (May 18, 2012)

anxiom said:


> My negative belief is that I am worthless because I am "weird, creepy, and pathetic". I could give a **** less about rejection as long as it doesn't happen because I am "weird". But when I feel like I am being exposed as a "weird, pathetic, creep", I feel incredibly ashamed. For that reason I am afraid of situations where this thought is triggered. In the past when I was much worse those situations included things like listening to music while alone in my room. But nowadays I can go many places and do almost anything, talk to people in a lot of situations, etc., without getting _very _triggered.


I used to have standard-issue social phobia but now what I still struggle with is the same as you, right down to that negative belief. I don't know if that belief will ever go away.


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## anxiom (Jun 2, 2014)

lisbeth said:


> I used to have standard-issue social phobia but now what I still struggle with is the same as you, right down to that negative belief. I don't know if that belief will ever go away.


 awesome! Finally another person like me.

I wondered as well if I began with social phobia back in sixth grade, and then developed this other primary disorder (which I call Para-Social Phobia) subsequently. Also, in elementary school there were two specific social anxiety type disorders that I developed but I won't go into them here just yet. It did seem I had some sort of social anxiety disorder from ages 11 to 13, and I don't recall the feelings of intense, soul-shredding shame I experienced after that age. For instance, in 6th grade I asked out a longtime female acquaintance (twice! :sus) and each time I was terrified, shaking, sweating, heart racing, barely able to speak without stuttering. When I was rejected on each occasion I felt very depressed (since she was my crush), horribly embarrassed, and also ashamed. But as I said, it wasn't soul crushing shame like I suddenly began to experience at age 13. Likewise, when some popular kids in my 7th grade spanish class began to pantamime and insinuate that I like to (suck you know whats), I felt anxious but not deeply ashamed.

It was in 8th grade that I started to believe that I was a "permanent loser" and that is when I began experiencing the intense shame spikes, and the anxiety/depression attacks that accompanied them. From that point on my primary issue was phobia of being ashamed rather than sensitivity to rejection or catastrophizing as in social phobia.

It isn't clear if I still have social phobia AND para-social phobia, or if the social phobia went away with my numerous attempts to socialize and get girls over the last 16 years. My original social anxiety disorder was generalized but centered on performance situations such as school dances, asking a girl out, playing sports, and talking in public. If I recall the last time that being rejected in a performance situation, or any situation at all, was frightening in of itself, it would be hooking up with girls in Sophomore year in college. I used to shake visibly during the hookups because I was terrified of being rejected. Interestingly enough, this problem gradually went away with more hookups and eventually stopped around the end of sophomore year (proof of exposure therapy!). So, since I was 20 I have no evidence of continuing social phobia.

My guess is that I inadvertently treated what had been a moderate social phobia disorder by repeatedly exposing myself to the feared situations during the period in which I ALSO had my para-social-phobia. Because my safety behaviors were aimed at preventing exposure as a a "weird and creepy" person, rather than at preventing rejection per se, I eventually discovered through multiple rejections that rejection itself isn't so bad, and that the supposedly catastrophic consequences of being rejected are either implausible or non-catastrophic after all; presuming that the rejection was for some reason other than being creepy/pathetic. For example, I was rejected many times by girls when I was sure that it was due to my having bad-game, and not being pathetic. I thought my "mask" was fooling them into thinking I was a normal guy so there was no way they could reject me for being weird.

If this is true it's really amazing because social phobia is normally a life long disorder without specific treatment.


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## rubyruby (Jun 17, 2009)

When I was younger there wasn't even a diagnosis for social phobia.


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## burningsunrise (May 19, 2014)

I feel the same as you in a lot of social situations. I've often had these thoughts in the back of my mind that I must have something else besides social anxiety because not all social situations would I feel anxious.

So much of my life I've been so worried about people finding out my "secret" that I'm really a creepy loser. You mention having a hard time listening to music alone and I had that exact same fear. When I lived with my parents I would always listen to music with headphones because I was afraid of people finding out what I was listening too. Same with what I was reading, or what movies I watched. It didn't help that a lot of things I liked weren't normal (like experimental music or "girly" movies).

I still struggle with this a lot. It's what makes me so afraid to talk to most people I know. Because I feel that my interests aren't normal and I just get this horrible sense of shame that I'm fundamentally one of those weird people other people like to talk about and make fun of.

I've found a lot of the philosophy behind Buddhism and meditation has helped me out quite a bit. Especially the idea that a lot of our suffering comes from being too attached or caught up in our negative thoughts. I often get caught up in feeling ashamed of myself. Like the image I have in my my head is that I'm fundamentally a whiny nerdy loser. This image is an illusion though. Not really who I fundamentally am. Meditation is a practice that helps me let go of these shameful thoughts. It's hard though.


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## anxiom (Jun 2, 2014)

burningsunrise said:


> ....much of my life I've been so worried about people finding out my "secret" that I'm really a creepy loser. You mention having a hard time listening to music alone and I had that exact same fear. When I lived with my parents I would always listen to music with headphones because I was afraid of people finding out what I was listening too. Same with what I was reading, or what movies I watched. It didn't help that a lot of things I liked weren't normal (like experimental music or "girly" movies).
> 
> ....It's what makes me so afraid to talk to most people I know. Because I feel that my interests aren't normal and I just get this horrible sense of shame that I'm fundamentally one of those weird people other people like to talk about and make fun of.
> 
> ...the image I have in my my head is that I'm fundamentally a whiny nerdy loser. This image is an illusion though. Not really who I fundamentally am. Meditation is a practice that helps me let go of these shameful thoughts. It's hard though.


Holy ****, you're my doppleganger!!! :clap

I don't think I've seen anyone as much like me since I was on social phobia world, and even then I don't know if they ever described it quite like this. I have my doubts about them. But your case I know it's true.

This is really amazing. I want to find more people like us. It's so hard having to try to explain this to the psychs and seeing their lack of true insight and understanding. If only we were more visible we could get the help we really need, and at least, the support in the meantime from others.

Also, you might want to google "geletophobia". These are basically a subset of people with our disorder (which I call Para Social Phobia) whose main source of shame and social anxiety is the delusion that they are "ridiculous". They have been classified informally, at last, as a clinical group in 2009. But the psychs haven't figured it out yet that they are just the tip of the iceberg.

Do you hear me psychologists who may be reading this? Mark my words. Tip of the iceberg.


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## burningsunrise (May 19, 2014)

anxiom said:


> Holy ****, you're my doppleganger!!! :clap
> 
> I don't think I've seen anyone as much like me since I was on social phobia world, and even then I don't know if they ever described it quite like this. I have my doubts about them. But your case I know it's true.
> 
> ...


Great to hear from someone who relates. I never heard of geletophobia before but the fear of being made fun of by other people sounds like it overlaps quite a bit with what I feel. It overlaps quite a bit with social anxiety too. I admit, when I went to the social anxiety wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anxiety I couldn't find too many differences from geletophobia. They both involve a fear of being made fun of. Geletophobia may be more focused on the fear being made fun of part though, whereas social anxiety may be more general anxiety about any social situations. Does this make sense?

From my understanding, what you are describing as para-social phobia is not so much a fear of rejection, but more this sort of internalized perception or identity of yourself as a "loser". Much more related to having low self esteem. Am I correct?

You mentioned how you don't think many of the social phobia treatments will work for you. May I ask why this is? Is it because you don't believe simple exposure to social situations will help with these negative thoughts?


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## burningsunrise (May 19, 2014)

I'm also wondering if you've heard of a form of therapy called ACT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_and_commitment_therapy. It has a bit more emphasis on accepting yourself the way you are and de-fusing or letting go of negative thoughts. It sounds like it could be helpful to look into if a lot of the problems you describe stem from these negative feelings.


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## inerameia (Jan 26, 2012)

I just have low self-confidence and a melancholic personality. I believe I can "fix" myself from the disorder.


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## anxiom (Jun 2, 2014)

burningsunrise said:


> ...I admit, when I went to the social anxiety wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anxiety I couldn't find too many differences from geletophobia....


Geletophobia is the same disorder you and I have, but in their case they believe they are "ridiculous", not that they are losers, or that they are "weird". The problem is the same as with us. They have delusions that lead them to this core delusion, it produces intense shame, they become phobic of situation that trigger the shame.



burningsunrise said:


> From my understanding, what you are describing as para-social phobia is not so much a fear of rejection, but more this sort of internalized perception or identity of yourself as a "loser". Much more related to having low self esteem. Am I correct?


Almost. Para-Social Phobia is a (undescribed) thought disorder in which the patient has a delusion that they are defective in some way that takes away their human worth. When forced to confront this belief consciously they experience devastating shame. As a result they become phobic of situations which appear to validate the belief and so trigger the shame.

This is much worse than what people normally mean when they say "I feel worthless". The litmus test is if they have ever followed that thought with: "I don't deserve to live and should kill myself right now.", and actually meant it. Likewise, all of us have felt a little grandiose at times, but unless you've felt the tingles and surge of power you get when you believe you are a "god", like manics experience, then you haven't really experienced true grandiosity. People often confuse self-hatred with shame but they are very distinct. Self-hatred is a feeling of intense disgust with yourself and wanting to be away from yourself and be someone or something else. It can be unbearable but it's not the same as shame. Shame is a loss of human worth and when it is intense the experience is like your soul ripping apart. That's how I experienced it when I was sicker.



burningsunrise said:


> You mentioned how you don't think many of the social phobia treatments will work for you. May I ask why this is? Is it because you don't believe simple exposure to social situations will help with these negative thoughts?


They won't work because exposure is based on desensitizing the patient to social-threats and convincing them that perceived disastrous consequences either won't happen or aren't that bad after all. In the case of our disorder none of this can be useful because shame depends entirely on the credibility of the core distortion, and because disastrous consequences are fundamentally irrelevant to the problem. Experiments that invalidate the core belief, on the other hand, are the key to recovery. While these may look like exposure, they are actually very different and operate through a separate mechanism.


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## innerspace (Jun 24, 2014)

This is really interesting. I've always felt that at the core of my social anxiety and depression was this deep feeling of shame and worthlessness. 

When I was most severely depression, it got to the point of me becoming actively suicidal and self-destructive. I hated myself and just KNEW that other people knew what a disgusting loser I was. 

I realize now that these thoughts are irrational, yet I still have a milder version of shame and low self-worth that makes me want to run away and hide from other people, to protect my vulnerable shaky core, and makes me feel like a complete fraud as I go through life... Like other people see this apparently competent 'normal' person, but if they only knew what I REALLY am inside, they would reject me just like I reject myself. So I expect rejection, and treat myself harshly.


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## anxiom (Jun 2, 2014)

innerspace said:


> This is really interesting. I've always felt that at the core of my social anxiety and depression was this deep feeling of shame and worthlessness.


So true. That is the pathological shame that usually accompanies SA. Even if people with SA don't start off hating themselves (and I really doubt that most of them do), they will eventually end up that way because over time their "ideal self" and their "real self" completely lose contact. There is not much other option since the phobia prevents most forms of self-development.



innerspace said:


> ... Like other people see this apparently competent 'normal' person, but if they only knew what I REALLY am inside, they would reject me just like I reject myself. So I expect rejection, and treat myself harshly.


And I take it, as a person with sa, you are very afraid of being rejected? Can you go into more detail about how fear of rejection all on its own, or fear of the _consequences _of rejection (e.g., I will feel xxx, or I will end up a lone forever), relate to your experience?


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## LivetoRead (Jun 23, 2014)

Many teenagers struggle to fit in and be accepted. In a early teens there are so many changes going on physically and mentally that I think most of us struggle to figure out who we are but unless we fit in to a group and are excepted we feel left out. This starts the chain reaction of feeling worthless and unacceptable to anyone and unless we find away to overcome this dreadful feeling we become trapped.


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