# Nardil Restart. 60 mg nevermore.



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

So I took 45 mg of Nardil today since it was either day 13 or day 14 and the cold intolerance didn't subside. I was just freezing my *** off everyday and inshallah made a good point that maybe too little SERT was a possibility.

I also found this interesting article.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1610995/?page=1

Basically, 2 people coming off Nardil experienced extreme coldness from withdrawal. So maybe I'm a similar case..

Anyways...not trying to spam, but like I've said, I kinda use these posts as records to determine my avg "effect" moment from past trials and to look at any variability between former Nardil trials.

Really hope the coldness gets better going back on Nardil. I don't expect it to be perfect because at 45 mg it wasn't, but it surely didn't get in the way of my day.. I was just a little bit more cold.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Ughh, amlodipen is seriously weird. Took it thursday night, I still have a headache and some nausea. When I took 45 mg of Nardil to restart something must've interacted (I also took aspirin not sure if this does anything).

But I had to go see a doctor at the ER because after I added Nardil I started to feel super cold, developed a low fever at 100 farenheit, extreme brain zaps (which is weird because I usually don't have brain zaps going back ON medication, it's usually from serotonin withdrawal).

Anyways, they're not really sure what happened and said it was probably from the MAOI, but it's weird cause I was on it 2 times in the past starting from 45 mg..

So I'm going to wait for the amlodipen to clear my system (half life is 30-50 hrs) before I take Nardil (will waiting 3-4 days be enough? That will be 5-6 days in total since I last dosed amlodipen). Does this make sense why I still have a huge headache? As it started when I took amlodipen and caused nausea.


----------



## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amlodipine

How does this above medication that your taking help with cold intolerance?

It also doesn't really sound that appealing to be honest.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Well I was guessing my extreme cold extremities were one of two things, too much norepinephrine left in my body, or too little serotonin (withdrawal from Nardil there are quite a few cases for being extremely cold going off it fast).

I tested out the "too much norepinephrine" theory by getting a calcium channel blocker which would cause vasodilation and warm my extremities up. It did that 4-5 hours after I took the medicine but then it gave me a headdache and nausea for 3 days. So I can't use it. This is off a really low 2.5 mg dose.

So after reading the cases where people are extremely cold coming off Nardil I think I should restart Nardil (45 mg) to get serotonin in my system (Inshallah also brought up this idea) since my levels have nose dived since stopping 60 mg and now being at 0 mg.

For some reason I felt awful taking Nardil 45 mg (first time ever) with amlodipine in my system so I'm waiting for amlodipine to clear my system. It has a 30-50 hour half life so I'm not sure how long to wait.. my psychiatrist always said 5x half lifes to clear your system... which would be 250 hours or about 10 days. 

What would be a smart amount of time to wait?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Took 30 mg of Nardil yesterday, but I guess amlodipen is still in my system because I got a huge headdache for the last 24 hours but no fever. Just waited it out with no pain killers, super frustrating though.

Going to wait 2-3 days and try 30 mg again. Hopefully the amlodipen will then clear my system by then. Stupid long half life drug. Wednesday will be 6 days or 144 hours of a max 250 hours (for 5 half lives). Hopefully the severe headache doesn't start again.


----------



## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

Could you take anything to prevent the headaches? Like Advil or Tylenol?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Well the headache has now stopped, I think it only happens when I dose Nardil with amlodipen in my system. So I'm just going to wait a few more days and try again. But the headdaches are seriously painful. And no, I don't think advil will work as they gave me something stronger at the hospital when I went on Friday and it didn't help. It's a super weird interaction... not sure why taking a dose of Nardil makes me develop crazy headaches.


----------



## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

I'm not a fan of anything that blocks noradrenaline to be honest. Especially since you are depressed, I would not use an NA blocking med. None, regardless of the class. 

Try to get more serotonin in your system one way or another. It's all about balance, NA is not a problem if there is enough SERT to counteract it. That's why you don't feel cold on say MDMA, releases a lot of NA but also releases a lot of SERT.

What diet were you on or how were you eating when on Nardil and how are you eating at the moment gilmourr?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

My diet really hasn't changed much. When I was on Nardil I ate regularly and ate more when I found I was getting cold to try and heat myself up (though it didn't work). I don't have dairy or eggs because of intolerances.

Since I've come off Nardil I've probably eaten the same if not more. 

When I dose Nardil I feel my general chills and coldness subside though I believe, but I'm not sure because I haven't been able to take it every day because amlodipen is in my system still and using Nardil atm gives me massive headaches which I can only attribute to the amlodipen.


----------



## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Yes eating more to feel warmer is not the way to go.

I asked about your diet because these days, a lot of people are on low carb or even keto diets.

Carbohydrates are necessary for serotonin production. On a keto diet, you can forget about serotonin production. That's why you regularly hear of people becoming depressed on them. It renders serotonergic AD's basically useless. (I'm not kidding, when there is basically no serotonin to reuptake, an SSRI will do nothing, same with any serotonergic AD) A lot of people don't seem to know this though. Mr T is even advising a keto diet in his Nardil-thread...

You need to be on a *high carb* (high % of carbohydrates relative to the protein and fat %'s) diet if you want *optimal serotonin production*.

This article by Judith Wurtman, Ph.D. explains it all:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-antidepressant-diet/201008/serotonin-what-it-is-and-why-its-important-weight-loss


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Inshallah said:


> Yes eating more to feel warmer is not the way to go.
> 
> I asked about your diet because these days, a lot of people are on low carb or even keto diets.
> 
> ...


I feel like I get all the necessary carbs. I really don't go out of my way except for lactose/dairy. I still have pastas all the time, I eat breads though sometimes I have gluten free breads, I have beer, I eat doughnuts sometimes, muffins, etc. I guess we'll really know once I get on 45 mg. If I start to level out body warmth wise then it's probably a serotonin issue from not being on anything. Of course on 45 mg it isn't perfect but it's like 70% better I'd say, maybe 80%. I could always find some drug with an affinity for serotonin receptors like Abilify and use 2-5 mg maybe. I heard that using Abilify low dose before it binds to 5-HT2C receptors is particularly useful.


----------



## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

You do not need to do exactly what is said in that article, just make sure you are eating plenty of carbs.


----------



## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

gilmourr said:


> I feel like I get all the necessary carbs. I really don't go out of my way except for lactose/dairy. I still have pastas all the time, I eat breads though sometimes I have gluten free breads, I have beer, I eat doughnuts sometimes, muffins, etc. I guess we'll really know once I get on 45 mg. If I start to level out body warmth wise then it's probably a serotonin issue from not being on anything. Of course on 45 mg it isn't perfect but it's like 70% better I'd say, maybe 80%. I could always find some drug with an affinity for serotonin receptors like Abilify and use 2-5 mg maybe. I heard that using Abilify low dose before it binds to 5-HT2C receptors is particularly useful.


Sounds like you are good to go then. I just wanted to make sure you weren't keto dieting


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Sunday took 45 mg (huge headache after), Tuesday took 30 mg (no headdache), today took 45 mg (hopefully no painful headache to come).

Right now I think it's getting back into my system as my anxiety is starting to rev up. It kinda makes me feel super jittery. I believe the cold chills might be going away, but my extremities like my fingers and feet are still cold 50% of the time. It's weird that I feel warm everywhere else, I just can't seem to get circulation to my feet or my fingers. It might also be just for the time being that until my anxiety normalizes I'll feel this coldness. Hopefully the anxiety normalizes like always around 3 weeks - 4 weeks.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

45 mg is resting well in my system, no new weird side effects. 

So just curious, but I haven't read a bunch about vitamins. I know I need to supplement B6 on Nardil, but if I start taking it, would it cause any increase in my extremity coldness? I just am only right now taking nardil, no sleep meds so nothing interacts.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

How's the libido on Nardil? I'm actually considering a MAOI but I doubt my doctor will do it. He seems way overly cautious. Selegiline actually sounds better as people are saying it makes their memory amazing and less food interactions due to it being MAO-B only. I'm just curious if this ramps peoples' anxiety as a result. It apparently obliterates anhedonia and that's my biggest problem right now.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

No dysfunction with that unless I hit 60 mg, and 45 mg has was pretty solid last time. I really hope it works again. Kind of freaks me out waiting for it to work, because Zoloft didn't work the 2nd time around, but this is my 3rd time on Nardil.

Also my body temp is going back to normal I believe. Today I didn't have cold shivvers once and I wasn't freezing at any point. It's ****ing great to be warm.

Looking at my past posts by day 18 I noticed my first drop in anxiety, and then a larger drop by day 34. Right now I have similar stomach discomfort like my stomach is in knots, some start up nausea (that passes in about 7 days) though so far. What I'm really looking forward to is waking up at 7-8 AM again. Love that side effect.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> No dysfunction with that unless I hit 60 mg, and 45 mg has was pretty solid last time. I really hope it works again. Kind of freaks me out waiting for it to work, because Zoloft didn't work the 2nd time around, but this is my 3rd time on Nardil.
> 
> Also my body temp is going back to normal I believe. Today I didn't have cold shivvers once and I wasn't freezing at any point. It's ****ing great to be warm.
> 
> Looking at my past posts by day 18 I noticed my first drop in anxiety, and then a larger drop by day 34. Right now I have similar stomach discomfort like my stomach is in knots, some start up nausea (that passes in about 7 days) though so far. What I'm really looking forward to is waking up at 7-8 AM again. Love that side effect.


Yah too bad they don't have Nardil Transdermal like with Selegiline. With Selegiline transdermal you can eat whatever you want as it bypasses the gut where there is maos. It apparently works amazingly but I checked health Canada DB and I don't see a transdermal version on there. So may be unique to the U.S. 

How did you get your doc to give you Nardil? My doc seems very strict as he even didn't like combining Prozac and Wellbutrin because of the dual action on dopamine.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

went to her office with a tonne of med papers and kind of was like I think it's bull**** that I come here every 3 weeks and we adjust the dose of the SSRI, I come back feeling nothing grand, and we repeat it over.

Said that I understand she's being cautious to avoid liability but at the same time like, ****, you're a doctor, and it's your job to look out for my medical best interests while not doing any excessive harm. I've been depressed/****ed for a year+ now, I'm 21, I want to go back to school, I want to get a job and live normally without having thoughts to off myself constantly. Can we please try the friggen Nardil so I can stop talking about this, I'll stay on the diet, titrate it slowly and disclose everything to you.

Something like that, but I kept repeating stuff like I swear to god I won't be a liability to you. That's literally the only reason why they don't prescribe it. Like cmon, what other reason would they have. Also I was calm, I didn't yell or anything. I've never been one to just come in and throw down a verbal argument, I'm just obnoxiously persistent in a very calm tone.

Also go over all of the stuff you read. It helps if they think you're serious about this and know what you want. Also I told her that my family would never sue her for negligence or malpractice because they just want me to get better, and they want me to have access to meds that will allow just that. Iunno, I just kind of ad-lib'd it. If you notice your doctor has 0 chance of giving it to you, move on.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Cool. I may even get him to put me on maclobemide. I have been reading and when it does work it works amazingly. So I mean it's worth a try even if it becomes a dud. You don't have to follow food restrictions either. My problem is I eat a lot of navy beans which contain l-tryptophan and tonnes of yogurt too. It would be hard for me to change my diet as I'm not really huge on meat even though i'm not a vegetarian.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> Cool. I may even get him to put me on maclobemide. I have been reading and when it does work it works amazingly. So I mean it's worth a try even if it becomes a dud. You don't have to follow food restrictions either. My problem is I eat a lot of navy beans which contain l-tryptophan and tonnes of yogurt too. It would be hard for me to change my diet as I'm not really huge on meat even though i'm not a vegetarian.


You know like only 10% of people have to follow that diet right? It doesn't affect the majority of people. I drink/eat whatever I want.

And Moclobemide doesn't work on GABA-T I believe which is the theory behind why Nardil works so well for anxiety. It doesn't work on my depression as much, it's about 10% behind. So if when it normalizes, my anxiety is 70% reduced (last time it was) and my depression was 60% reduced.

I'm not really sure what I'm going to do about the residual symptoms I have though... I'm hoping lyrica or abilify can boost the efficacy. When Nardil balances out, basically my REAL problem is agoraphobia (being in places where I'm trapped, can't get away). It's such a stupid symptom, but it's the most treatment resistant symptom. My mild agoraphobia causes nausea and anxiety. If augmenting won't work I'm afraid I'm going to have to move and try moclob or imipramine in the future. I also have rTMS coming up, so that might help also.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Yah but Moclobemide seems better for depression which is more important to me since I have anhedonia. Man once you've had bad anhedonia you almost wish you had extreme social anxiety and panic attacks in exchange for getting your interests back. 

That being said I've been doing a lot of research on a Selegiline, Nardil and moclobemide and I read a study where they hypothesized that Nardil raises catecholamines through some other method than MAOI. It went on to show that after quitting Nardil and MAO was still inhibited the Nardil lost efficacy which it shouldn't until the MAO is restored. 

See with my doctor I wan't to be as gentle as possible so that he becomes more open minded. I bet moclobemide would sound better to him than Nardil. He may not trust me cuz in the past I raised my Zoloft to 200mg and remeron 45mg on my own hah.

I wonder if you can add buspar to nardil? I noticed it's been helping with anxiety, took 30mg this morning and feeling kinda high.

BTW I know the dietary restrictions are not always a problem, may depend on the MAO in your gut. But man do I eat a lot of cheese. I basically have it at almost every meal. I also have yogurt, beans, all the bad stuff. I mean I would test if it's a problem no doubt, but I've read of people not reacting for so long and then out of nowhere the same food gives them a hypertensive crisis.


----------



## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

kehcorpz said:


> Yah but Moclobemide seems better for depression which is more important to me since I have anhedonia. Man once you've had bad anhedonia you almost wish you had extreme social anxiety and panic attacks in exchange for getting your interests back.
> 
> That being said I've been doing a lot of research on a Selegiline, Nardil and moclobemide and I read a study where they hypothesized that Nardil raises catecholamines through some other method than MAOI. It went on to show that after quitting Nardil and MAO was still inhibited the Nardil lost efficacy which it shouldn't until the MAO is restored.
> 
> ...


One thing a doctor actually directly told me about Moclobemide was that it's seemingly low efficacy in treating depression is supposedly due to it being generally under-dosed. 600-1200mg seems to generally be needed for a decent response, usually split over 3 daily doses to maintain proper levels. Something to be aware of if you go down that path.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

jim_morrison said:


> One thing a doctor actually directly told me about Moclobemide was that it's seemingly low efficacy in treating depression is supposedly due to it being generally under-dosed. 600-1200mg seems to generally be needed for a decent response, usually split over 3 daily doses to maintain proper levels. Something to be aware of if you go down that path.


Yah that's what I have been reading in the studies. They actually showed 1600 to be superior to Nardil in some areas. It seems to be one of those odd drugs. One thing they noted in a study is that people with previous alcohol abuse rarely react to this med. They also mentioned it is better at treating endogenous depression. Depression that doesn't react to external influence like a really good thing happening to you. I think that would be me. When I got a raise from 60k to 85k at my work I barely reacted. I was just like "ok". Most people would be super happy. So I mean I think back to how I've been and I really think mine is endogenous.


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

Yeah i've used over 2000mg of it, i found it quite comparable to how well nardil is working for me, actually it worked quite well but without some of the annoying nardil side effects, i often wish i had restarted moc* instead of nardil.
Was usless for me at the lowish doses often prescribed.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

viper1431 said:


> Yeah i've used over 2000mg of it, i found it quite comparable to how well nardil is working for me, actually it worked quite well but without some of the annoying nardil side effects, i often wish i had restarted moc* instead of nardil.
> Was usless for me at the lowish doses often prescribed.


Damn lucky your doctor was open minded enough to allow that. Was it expensive? I would imagine insurance wouldn't cover such a high dose?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

5 days into taking it regularly, I get this really nice Nardil sedation/calmness after I take my last 15 mg to make it 45 mg in total for the day. It's kind of like drinking 2-3 beers, I just feel mellow and laid back. Pretty sure it's beginning. Weirdly I feel some hovering depression. Might be that Nardil works quick on GABA first and serotonergic effects come later. 

Might make sense as to why I feel laid back/chill and strangely a bit more depressed (though the anti-depressant effect picks up after 10 days in usually and continues to get better until like day 50).


----------



## Govinda (May 7, 2012)

I'm about a week into 45 mg or under. I had a similar situation with 60 mg being way too much. I'm fairly sure my serotonin was jacked way up -- hyper-reflexia, hypersensitivity to light and sound, fever, myoclonic jerks, anxiety, twitchy mouth -- all symptoms of serotonin overdose.

About a week ago I also quit lyrica cold-turkey (600 mg) which has complicated things. Basically I feel fairly crappy. High level of anxiety and emotional flatness. Fairly sure that both are largely due to dropping lyrica so suddenly. 

I also get that slight mellowing with the final 15 mg dose of nardil. Hopefully sticking with 45 mg -- or under, sometimes I'll take less if my day is easy -- will work for both of us. 

2 other things I've noticed with nardil: 1) Sometimes I'll get palpitations that I associate with the nardil. They often come when I'm in bed for an extended period, for a nap or a sleep. They occasionally wake me up, but I just go back to sleep and they largely resolve by the time I wake up again. If my gut is right, I think they might be a sort of warning sign that serotonin is a little too high. Do you ever get this? I try to back off a little when I feel it.

2) Sleep, whether you are in need of it or not seems to greatly affect response to nardil. This means that if I take a nap I may wake up and the drug goes from working to not working or vice versa. This can be huge when deciding whether or not to sleep more or tough it out at any given point. Needless to say, I wish I could completely figure this out or eliminate it. 

Best of luck.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't think I would go to 60mg. I don't buy it that you need that high of a rate for it to work. Maybe for it to work faster sure. But you're still inhibited a good 60-70% maoi. And that could be what you need for remission.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Govinda said:


> I'm about a week into 45 mg or under. I had a similar situation with 60 mg being way too much. I'm fairly sure my serotonin was jacked way up -- hyper-reflexia, hypersensitivity to light and sound, fever, myoclonic jerks, anxiety, twitchy mouth -- all symptoms of serotonin overdose.
> 
> About a week ago I also quit lyrica cold-turkey (600 mg) which has complicated things. Basically I feel fairly crappy. High level of anxiety and emotional flatness. Fairly sure that both are largely due to dropping lyrica so suddenly.
> 
> ...


Yeah good call, when I read your stuff it reminded me of Nardil cycling that I had where it was sometimes good and then horrible. It just was too much and was causing mood swings. Though did you come down from 60 mg or restart? Because I came down from 60 mg to 45 mg and stayed there for 30 days. It wasn't the same. Had to restart it. Or maybe I should've gone down to 30 or 15 and then back up to 45 mg. Point is, I don't think you can get 45 mg level inhibition from going from 60 to 45 mg. All I know is that it did NOT feel the same and I was on 45 mg for 30 days after going to 60 mg.

Palpitations I never have on 45 mg. How do you know it's not NE causing it rather than SERT?

Also, you definitely don't want to cut out sleep. Regardless of if it works better when you don't sleep, you'll need to sleep and you can't just deprive yourself of sleep in the long term. If 45 mg is the right dose it will work consistently/less cycling and you'll be able to sleep without it not working. When I was at 60 mg and Nardil was cycling, I'd have to sleep when I had a mood swing and when I woke up it would be gone. I think it's just a sign that 60 mg was too much. But again if you haven't restarted it, I'd suggest going to 15 or 30 mg for a while to let MAO regenerate, then go on 45 mg. I chose to go off it completely because I didn't want to waste any time.

Good luck. Right now I'm still getting hit with a lot of tiredness. I'm having 12 hour sleeps atm.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Gilmour, you take it 45mg at once or 3 times a day? I know the old formula which people praise being so awesome was 45mg at the same time and the pill was slow release. They complain about how the new formula was messed up because it's not slow release. Although the differences in ingredients are so minor, maybe they are just coincidences.


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

kehcorpz said:


> Damn lucky your doctor was open minded enough to allow that. Was it expensive? I would imagine insurance wouldn't cover such a high dose?


Thankfully here in Australia the gov. pays for our meds.
I can't remember if he knew i was taking that much, thankfully he's really good at giving me a lot of lee way to play around with the dose.
Only time he raised an eyebrow was when i told him i had upped my prozac dose to 90mg a day..he wasn't too impressed that time


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> Gilmour, you take it 45mg at once or 3 times a day? I know the old formula which people praise being so awesome was 45mg at the same time and the pill was slow release. They complain about how the new formula was messed up because it's not slow release. Although the differences in ingredients are so minor, maybe they are just coincidences.


I haven't noticed there being any difference taking it all at once or spread out once it normalizes after a month, but atm I take one at 11 am, 3 pm and 7 pm.

I just read my old thread for Nardil and didn't realize that it took about a month for my energy to stabilize (actually 35 days to be exact). Kind of a bummer because I'm really tired right now. All I can do is like eat food, watch a movie and sleep for 12 hours. Also took that long for the dreams to stop. Maybe there is a connection with not dreaming and me feeling energetic? I also can't remember whether it was 45 mg of Nardil that woke me up at 8 am or 60 mg. Nardil turns my memory to mush within the first 30 days.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> I haven't noticed there being any difference taking it all at once or spread out once it normalizes after a month, but atm I take one at 11 am, 3 pm and 7 pm.
> 
> I just read my old thread for Nardil and didn't realize that it took about a month for my energy to stabilize (actually 35 days to be exact). Kind of a bummer because I'm really tired right now. All I can do is like eat food, watch a movie and sleep for 12 hours. Also took that long for the dreams to stop. Maybe there is a connection with not dreaming and me feeling energetic? I also can't remember whether it was 45 mg of Nardil that woke me up at 8 am or 60 mg. Nardil turns my memory to mush within the first 30 days.


Waahh does the memory come back? I sort of like how Wellbutrin enhances my memory. I also read selegiline is insanely good for memory but don't want the anxiety. I would assume it's the gaba component of Nardil but is it real bad? Does it get better?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

It definitely is the GABA component, it always comes back when you go off the drug (though I'm not sure if you were to take it for years and year..)

It doesn't affect my ability to process/analyze certain things, it's more just recalling names/movies. It's worse when you start it but it definitely gets better after a month when I'm not tired anymore.

I would say that when it levels off, it's about a 10-20% reduction in my recall time. It hasn't affected my memory, it just affects my ability to RECALL memories. It's like on Nardil I just have a more "on the tip of the tongue" type of memory. 

Mr.T doesn't have this side effect though and neither did oioioi or Shy-one I believe. So give it a try. I'm sure you can combine it with wellbutrin. I'm thinking about using abilify with it, or maybe the rTMS (if I get approved) will help.

All I know is that, ability to recall things quickly isn't as important as mood and well being. Plus almost all drug side effects are reversible except benzo and AP SE's.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> It definitely is the GABA component, it always comes back when you go off the drug (though I'm not sure if you were to take it for years and year..)
> 
> It doesn't affect my ability to process/analyze certain things, it's more just recalling names/movies. It's worse when you start it but it definitely gets better after a month when I'm not tired anymore.
> 
> ...


Yah but to me the memory recall is important. I hate being stuck in my mind trying to figure out the right word. Before Wellbutrin that's how it was and I just felt like a dumbass. Having a memory actually helps relieve my depression a bit since it was so bad when my depression was full blown. I have a lot of mixed results about selegiline, people say at low doses 5mg you don't need to follow a diet plus it helps social phobia. In fact, there's a study on it:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1520-6394(1998)7:3<126::AID-DA5>3.0.CO;2-9/abstract



> Low dose selegiline (L-Deprenyl) in social phobia


Though it only gives you a 1 page preview and you have to buy the full study hehe.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Yeah, well you can try both. I just know that Nardil seems to be more effective than selegiline. Can we even get it being that we're within Canada? For some reason I had thought selegiline was American approved only.

Maybe I'll try Selegiline if augmenting Nardil doesn't work. I'm just trying to get closest to 100% as possible. Actually, I'd be really interested if you tried selegiline since you could tell me how it is. And how much it costs..

The only meds I have an interest in trying left are 

Pristiq, moclobemide, Selegiline, Imipramine and Clomipramine. I'm just concerned because none of these drugs seem to work on GABA like Nardil does (which helps big time). Also, I can only go about a month or two being in major depression before I need to tap out and come back on Nardil, so I can't just go from one drug to the next. It's pretty messed how bad it gets.

Have you tried any of those?


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Yah it's in Canada. Go to link and type selegilne in active ingredient.

http://webprod5.hc-sc.gc.ca/dpd-bdpp/start-debuter.do?lang=eng

A lot of generic suppliers. It's actually way cheaper than Nardil and you only need 5mg - 10mg. I'm sure Gaba helps but only to make you super relaxed it doesn't really fix the underlying issues. I recently read an article about norepinephrine being the social hormone. I wish I still had it. But they really don't know which one is as it's not as simple as inhibiting and not inhibiting. You can take energizing substances that do not initiate gaba but yet make you great in social situations and still energetic. Wellbutrin is a good example for me as it actually does better with socialness than anything else I've taken, though it hasn't been as good with depression/anhedonia as Zoloft/remeron were. My guess Remeron's 5-ht3 antagonism had a lot to do with it. I'm even reading antagonizing 5-ht3 can help with social anxiety. Something like Mementine should in theory. I will discuss things with my doctor. Who knows what he will allow. He may pull on me what ultrashy's doctor has been pulling on him hehe.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's some people discussing selegiline: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/52151-selegiline-l-deprenyl-for-adhd-reviews/


----------



## Govinda (May 7, 2012)

How I went down was this: I dropped in 15 mg increments every two days from 60 all the way to zero; then I stayed at 0 for 3 days and moved up 15 at a time every two days until I got to 45 mg. I don't believe the maos completely regenerated in that time, but they definitely had time to increase. I could feel my perception sharpening and some long-held sides fading. I began to sleep fully, dream, have full libido, urinate and defecate freely (that was so nice). 

But you are right. Somehow simply dropping down from 60 to a lower dose doesn't do it. It seems like the maoi effect is maintained at or near whatever your peak dose was. 

I think I've almost started from scratch as far as the drug goes, because I don't have difficult urinating, defecating, and insomnia and euphoria just kicked in a couple days ago. So, I guess I might have all those weird phases to look forward to again, such as the hypotensive phase where people had to walk near me to catch me if I collapsed. We shall see. I will try to keep my dose low though. Today was 37.5 mg, largely because I felt ok being lower. 

As far as whether it's the NE or Sert causing the palpitations and other sided, I suppose I really have no idea. It probably is much more complex than one or the other. All I know is that when I went really high on the dose and felt at my worst, it reminded me a lot of some momentary sensations felt while on SSRI's (except times 2).


----------



## puppy (Jun 27, 2012)

What dose were you on before Govinda? I am on 75 mg but the results are still not what I had hoped. I'm definitely better than before (can make phone calls and correct cashiers when they don't get my order right, for example), but still have a lot of situational anxiety and trouble talking to strangers. Might try dropping down and going back up, since I pretty much started on 60 mg.

Another thought, if I am still dreaming on 75 mg could that be an indication that my dose is too low?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Govinda said:


> How I went down was this: I dropped in 15 mg increments every two days from 60 all the way to zero; then I stayed at 0 for 3 days and moved up 15 at a time every two days until I got to 45 mg. I don't believe the maos completely regenerated in that time, but they definitely had time to increase. I could feel my perception sharpening and some long-held sides fading. I began to sleep fully, dream, have full libido, urinate and defecate freely (that was so nice).
> 
> But you are right. Somehow simply dropping down from 60 to a lower dose doesn't do it. It seems like the maoi effect is maintained at or near whatever your peak dose was.
> 
> ...


That seems like a reasonable drop, so that would be 8 days to get down to 0, and then 3 days at 0, so I BELIEVE you should be at a MAO inhibition level that is between 0 to 45 mg. That's basically what I was getting at since you don't want to be over 45 mg. Hopefully 45 mg works like it did for me.

Currently I'm on day 8 and even though I don't have major depression to the point where I can't think, I still have quite a bit at this point, it's definitely moderate I would say 7 or 8 out of 10 for the severity of depression. I hope that it starts to kick in as I don't feel particularly well. It seems things begin to pick up about 14-15 days, 30 days in, and then again at like 60 days in.

Also, check out rTMS, I may have it done. I have a consult on Nov 23rd. The testimonials are incredible. People with OCD, major depression, panic disorder, fibromyalgia have used it to get into remission and even come off their meds entirely. Apparently it uses an EEG to track parts of your brain that are out of sync, then they magnetize that part for 20 sessions in a row (no memory loss). The 20 sessions causes a release of SERT and dopamine which make a LOT of patients feel incredible. Read up on it. It's becoming a new "thing" outside of the box of ECT and other invasive operations like DBS and VNS. And it's quite effective. If you live in the states though it may cost you $5000.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

puppy said:


> What dose were you on before Govinda? I am on 75 mg but the results are still not what I had hoped. I'm definitely better than before (can make phone calls and correct cashiers when they don't get my order right, for example), but still have a lot of situational anxiety and trouble talking to strangers. Might try dropping down and going back up, since I pretty much started on 60 mg.
> 
> Another thought, if I am still dreaming on 75 mg could that be an indication that my dose is too low?


No. Not everyone develops the inability to dream on Nardil. Doesn't mean that the med isn't working. If it's helping you, it's helping you. Keep raising the dose as long as the side effects don't become worse every 60 days or so. Just find the dose that works for you. All I know is that past 45 mg (for me) it is doing WAY more damage.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Gilmour, check out these articles on selegiline:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/chemically-correct-deprenyl-by-andrew-novick/

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/chemically-correct-l-deprenyl-part-ii-by-andrew-novick/

It just sounds too good to be true hehe.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

That's just a bit too much man thigh for my liking, but yeah if it works, it works. I didn't read the entire thing but I know selegiline is a fairly strong med, I just don't think it'll be that effective for my panic disorder/agoraphobic issues. 

I wish I only had the major depression.

But yeah, try it out, I kind of want to hear how it goes. As for me, I'm probably going to be on Nardil until my rTMS appointment/maybe until I get it done. We'll see.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

I ended up getting Abilify added to my Wellbutrin. Will see how that goes. It's a d2 partial agonist with quite a high occupancy rate.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Abilify seems like a good idea only if you're REALLY close to remission. Not sure how well wellbutrin is going but I would only use it if my meds were at covering me with like 70% of my symptoms (which nardil is when it balances out, which is why I'll augment nardil with it). Sounds like your doc stone walled you a bit.

Weird stuff today, feeling more energetic, day 9, but I was dry heaving today after feeling EXTREMELY nauseous. Not sure if it was eating mcdonalds because it was like 2 hours after I ate, but it felt more like anxiety--especially since I didn't vomit, but rather heaved. Really hoping the nardil nausea side effect goes away before the weekend..


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Yah my doc told me to take it at night, baaddddd idea. I slept about an hour and then I kept waking up every 30 minutes. Now I'm up at 5am because I have so much energy and am so alert. It's a good energy though, not jittery like too much coffee. And this is with only 2mg which is my starting dose for a week. If 2mg works this well consistently I don't think I'll raise it.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

I believe I read somewhere that at 2 mg it basically is just a dopamine agent because it binds to dopamine receptors so well at that dose. So increasing it won't really make it a LOT powerful as most of the receptor binding is complete at 2 mg. Past 2 mg I believe it then goes to SERT receptors most likely.

Let me know if it does anything other than give you energy, because on Nardil I have a good energy level. Let me know if it contributes to things like motivation, thought process, memory, etc. The productive stuff.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

I've been reading review sites and it seems that the magic number is 5-15mg/day. More anxiolytic the higher you go. It's funny because on its own it doesn't do much but combination therapy it's apparently great. A lot of wellbutrin/abilify users that reported good results. 

I ended up taking a nap later for about 3 hours. I'm going to take it at 1pm from now on, may even do earlier, will see. I can already tell this has potential because it makes you just want to get up and find something to do if you're just sitting around. So I've been doing stuff around the house today because staring at the screen or flipping between websites is just driving me nuts and boring. So I think about stuff I can do haha. This stuff apparently can work as quickly as 3-7 days but some people need at least 2-3 weeks to get full effect.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Yeah heard that too, in combination always, never alone.

And yeah if it makes you focused/productive that's good, but if you're unable to sit still and focus that's going to begin to suck. I hate that feeling.

Day 10 nardil, still super nauseous. ridiculous. I wish I could get prescribed some ondansetron to just let me go out. Freaking house bound until this god damn nausea subsides. ****. Pepto didn't work, time to try gravol.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Nah I can sit still. It's just when I get bored that I become fidgety and restless. Even If i'm reading something like an article that i'm interested in I'll be still and focused, it's only when I get bored, it's really weird. Today is day 3 not feeling as stimulated thus far hehe.

Yah when I was getting Buspar Nausea I would take ibuprofen and it worked like a charm.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

then that's good! Because I was going to try abilify after like 50-60 days of being on nardil after it levels out. So I might have good luck with augmenting.

But seriously, ipuprofen for nausea? I've never heard it for that use. The gravol worked fairly well today but it's way too sedating at 100 mg, so maybe 50 mg might do the trick.


----------



## Govinda (May 7, 2012)

Do you notice any periodicity, any regular daily patterns in your nardil response? Lately, and in parts of my last treatment phase, I wake up at about 7 with a rapid heart rate, fall asleep and wake up again feeling ok at about 8. I take 30 mg immediately and feel a little worse -- shakier, twitchier -- for the first 45 minutes and then considerably calmer about an hour or two later. If I can help it I either skip the third dose or postpone it until afternoon. This is an attempt to avoid overdoing it like last time (though I was on 60 then). Early in the afternoon, around 2 or 3, I get palpitations and sleepiness. This fades by mid-evening and then I seem to feel calmer again until I sleep. 

Also, I seem to wake up at 2 am and have to struggle to get back to sleep regardless of when I went to bed or how tired I was to begin with. 

I'm going to try decreasing to 37.5 mg for the time being and/or spreading the dose. I want as consistent a feeling as possible and I would rather have a weaker response than that hypersensitivity I felt on 60 mg. 

This is week two and so far anxiety has been reduced by about 40% (for the best part of the day), but, as with you, depression is still very high.


----------



## Govinda (May 7, 2012)

Puppy, 
in response to your question, I was on 60 mg before. For about a week I took 75 as well. I would suggest you try to stay very low initially. I think it may be the case that when nardil "quits" on people, what is really happening is some kind of excess mao inhibition (probably the neurotransmitter profile changes too). I am almost certain this is what happened with me.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Govinda said:


> Do you notice any periodicity, any regular daily patterns in your nardil response? Lately, and in parts of my last treatment phase, I wake up at about 7 with a rapid heart rate, fall asleep and wake up again feeling ok at about 8. I take 30 mg immediately and feel a little worse -- shakier, twitchier -- for the first 45 minutes and then considerably calmer about an hour or two later. If I can help it I either skip the third dose or postpone it until afternoon. This is an attempt to avoid overdoing it like last time (though I was on 60 then). Early in the afternoon, around 2 or 3, I get palpitations and sleepiness. This fades by mid-evening and then I seem to feel calmer again until I sleep.
> 
> Also, I seem to wake up at 2 am and have to struggle to get back to sleep regardless of when I went to bed or how tired I was to begin with.
> 
> ...


That is weird that you're having heart palpitations and stuff. It may just be the fact that it's balancing out and the anxiety effect is volatile. I don't feel agitated, or anything like that. I only have nausea as a side effect atm. I don't wake up either. Yesterday my sleep clock has begun to "normalize," as I am now waking up at 7,8 or 9 instead of 3 pm.

I don't know how well it's working on my anxiety since I haven't done much since I've been in since I've developed nausea, but I think it definitely is working on the anxiety. The mood also continues to get better.

All in all, I'm happy with the progress so far if it wasn't for the nausea. I also could use a bit of help with my motivation to do work, but that will come when the mood picks up like always.

Keep it up man, it's all about getting past the first 30 days and then it's smooth sailing (or at least for me it always is). Also my response to the med seems level at all times, I don't feel like it's "working" only at times. I'd really try and just leave it at 45 mg since you've been using it at that level and going back to 37.5 mg won't be very different because the MAO won't regenerate quickly. If you think you're hypersensitive to Nardil then you probably should have started at 30 mg for 6-8 weeks, because it's much easier to increase the dose than it is to decrease it.

Also Govinda, look into rTMS, I'm probably getting it done in the upcoming weeks or months and if it works I'll let you know. Many people have used it and are off drugs because of it. It magnetizes your head to release dopamine and serotonin essentially and it also affects the vagus nerve which I believe is responsible for GABA.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Anyone know if there is a norepinephrine function in gravol? After taking a second dose today I had a very similar experience to when I was on 60 mg being that I felt extremely cold. Or is the antihistamine in it potent enough to cause coldness or some type of vasoconstriction? 

Such a ***** trying to get to sleep when I'm freezing my *** off. I think I'd prefer having the nausea back instead of the coldness.

EDIT: AFter looking through some stuff "Dimenhydrinate" is composed of two drugs, diphenhydramine and a derivative of theophylline. So basically an anti histamine + a low CNS stimulant. Which makes sense why I'm cold because both of these should raise blood pressure or contribute to more vasoconstriction. And to top it off, it isn't even making me feel tired for some reason.


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

Just came accross something which reminded me of the problem you were having with nardil making you cold, just read that melatonin is hypothermic, decreasing your core body temp, checked with a google search and it seems to be correct, many supporting studies. nardil increases melatonin so i wonder if that's the cause?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8836952


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Well I'm not normally cold on Nardil, it's very very mild. It's only when I'm on 60 mg or withdrawaling from it. It seems like too much norepinephrine like inshallah said last time was responsible for the coldness. And then when I was off of it it was just withdrawal/lack of serotonin. 

I became cold after adding the gravol so it must be related to the stimulant/antihistamine portion of using that with nardil


----------



## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

How is the coldness atm? (didn't read the whole thread)


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

It seems to be reverting back to normal as more time goes by since I took gravol.

Now the nausea is back. Guess I'm just going to have to wait it out. Just wanted to do **** this weekend since I've been so facking bored being inside. Hopefully it doesn't go on for too long, it is 12 days into 45 mg

EDIT: I'm guessing MAOI inhibit MAO which lets more SERT build up in my system, but does anybody know which SERT receptors it would affect? Would it invoke a reaction throughout most serotonin receptors? I'm guessing that since gravol and pepto don't work that my 5HT-3 receptor is being activated which is responsible for nausea. So if that's correct then I'm just waiting for the 5HT-3 receptor or whichever receptor responsible for nausea to downregulate, correct? And how long can down regulation normally take?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

nausea seems to still be here, day 14 now. Seems that my mood is still pretty low (though staying out of major depression atm) but at least it's not volatile, it's just consistent. Might also just feel like crap in general because I have a cold. Nardil is having a lot of fun keeping me indoors atm.

EDIT: Seriously not sure whether it's going to work this time. It just doesn't feel the same like last time. By day 16, I was out doing **** last time. Right now I just want to go to sleep (granted its day 14) for the entire day. I don't think it's like I put more effort in last time, I just remember me feeling genuinely better. If this drug fails a second time just like how zoloft did I'm seriously just getting ****ed over. 

Maybe I should stop taking the B6 with it? I take 75 mg daily. Iunno, I'm going to give it about 45 days before I really start to question the efficacy of it, right now this is probably one of the worst days of the 14 days I've been on it. This better just be a speedbump.

Also getting chills that are exactly like when I was off Nardil in withdrawal. Maybe it's just taking longer to get into my system. Because I have no side effects other than the nausea.


----------



## scaredtolive (Mar 19, 2009)

gilmourr said:


> nausea seems to still be here, day 14 now. Seems that my mood is still pretty low (though staying out of major depression atm) but at least it's not volatile, it's just consistent. Might also just feel like crap in general because I have a cold. Nardil is having a lot of fun keeping me indoors atm.
> 
> EDIT: Seriously not sure whether it's going to work this time. It just doesn't feel the same like last time. By day 16, I was out doing **** last time. Right now I just want to go to sleep (granted its day 14) for the entire day. I don't think it's like I put more effort in last time, I just remember me feeling genuinely better. If this drug fails a second time just like how zoloft did I'm seriously just getting ****ed over.
> 
> ...


Hang in there man. It'll come. In the meantime force yourself out of that bed. I know it's hard. What other things do you do for depression/sa


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Well I don't have SA so that's a positive.

Basically I don't do anything when I'm depressed except listen to music and just chill because I automatically start doing stuff when I come out of it. I've almost been through it so many times that I just don't put effort into "undepressing" myself because it's pointless, the medication does everything. There's no way for me to pull myself into a constant good/normal mood when they aren't working. 

Though when I feel like this I try and force myself outside just to do anything, even if it's like just try and read at the library or go grab a coffee. 

When I start feeling decent I do work, read, I'm social and stuff, watch sports, just normal things. I guess I'm just going to have to wait for something to kick in. Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hehe i'm the opposite, when I'm depressed or have anhedonia I can't even listen to music. Once the anhedonia lifts I start listening. Like today I did some white zombie listening while cleaning the house.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

But do you have anhedonia or both? For me I'm pretty sure it's just major, like I find a lot of things don't interest me anymore but I have really major lows so I'm pretty sure it's MDD. Plus my psychiatrist said it was MDD, that and panic/mild agora (when untreated)

Also I usually listen to lower beat, slow music (I guess you can say more depressing music) as it somehow helps in a way. It's the only thing I can listen to and it's something to do right? It's more like something I can just have in the background while I zone out and wait for a low to pass. Today seemed to actually get a bit better after I took 1500 mcg of B12 with my B6, not sure if that did anything. I don't feel happier or anything but I feel like I'm definitely less cold and I seemed to have stopped getting those general chills.

I guess I'll keep taking it.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Question, on day 14 of being on 0 mg of Nardil I took amlodipine. Then I took Nardil @ 45mg. Apparently Nardil inhibits amlodipine which is why I had such a bad reaction and had to go to the hospital.

Does inhibition work both ways, so did it inhibit Nardil as well? 

Because if I took it and it inhibited nardil (I only took one dose, but it's half life is LONG 30-50 hours) then Nardil would've started in the 45 mg+ range, maybe closer to 60 mg. If it did inhibit it, then I ****ed up and it started at a MAO inhibition level past 45 mg which is NOT good for me. 

Is this possible? Did this screw it up and is this why Nardil is kinda not working that well this time? Or is it probably because I'm being paranoid and I should just wait it out


----------



## Govinda (May 7, 2012)

Today I had a freakout -- it was close to a panic attack. I felt the same set of feelings as in the last cycle of treatment when nardil starting actually causing anxiety at 60 mg. 
I'm not sure this nardil restart is goin to work anymore. Maybe I should drop back down to 0 for a while and then stay at 30 mg. I don't know. i just feel fed up and scared. I want my nardil life back.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> But do you have anhedonia or both? For me I'm pretty sure it's just major, like I find a lot of things don't interest me anymore but I have really major lows so I'm pretty sure it's MDD. Plus my psychiatrist said it was MDD, that and panic/mild agora (when untreated)
> 
> Also I usually listen to lower beat, slow music (I guess you can say more depressing music) as it somehow helps in a way. It's the only thing I can listen to and it's something to do right? It's more like something I can just have in the background while I zone out and wait for a low to pass. Today seemed to actually get a bit better after I took 1500 mcg of B12 with my B6, not sure if that did anything. I don't feel happier or anything but I feel like I'm definitely less cold and I seemed to have stopped getting those general chills.
> 
> I guess I'll keep taking it.


I have both. But since antidepressants I've only had the anhedonia left, though it looks like good things are happening since adding abilify to my wellbutrin. *knocks on wood*


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Govinda said:


> Today I had a freakout -- it was close to a panic attack. I felt the same set of feelings as in the last cycle of treatment when nardil starting actually causing anxiety at 60 mg.
> I'm not sure this nardil restart is goin to work anymore. Maybe I should drop back down to 0 for a while and then stay at 30 mg. I don't know. i just feel fed up and scared. I want my nardil life back.


It's POSSIBLE that your 3 day stint at 0 mg wasn't enough to regenerate enough MAO. Takes 55 hours to clear your system, so technically it should be at LEAST 55 hours at 0 mg + some days (I had 15 days in total so it was 55 hours + 12.5 days at 0 mg).

How does 45 mg currently compare to 60 mg? If it's exactly the same you might want to try a few more days and if it feels the same then it probably is a MAO inhibition issue.

Right now I have no hyperreflexia or EXTREME coldness or mood swings so I feel I'm at a 45 mg level. Of course my mood isn't great but it isn't SWINGING which is a key thing for me at 60 mg.

I know it sucks to think that you may have to restart it and perform a longer MAO clear out period but first I'd try to stay at 45 mg a bit longer. If it feels exactly like 60 mg then I would either restart (2 week wash out) or just try something else. The fact that it worked before I'd say do the wash out (I know it's ****ing annoying, but just analyze the situation).

You CAN go down to 15 or 30 mg, but then you would have to stay down there I believe for quite a while to let MAO regenerate, because going off is quicker (though harsher on the mind and body). So in total..

1. Wait it out at 45 mg, if after a few more days it's identical to 60 mg, it probably is because enough MAO didn't regenerate.

2. Restart it. (2 week wash out period) Literature says 2-3 week wash out period though I restarted when I became majorly depressed and all my side effects were gone.

3. Drop down to 30 mg or 15 mg. I'd try 15 mg and see if you can handle that. Wait 2-3 weeks, try 45 mg again. But I wasn't a fan of this idea because it's more theoretical and I'm not exactly sure how MAO regenerates other than going off it completely. Which is why I did that.

--------------------------

Day 16, still dreaming, nice 6 hours of sleep, little bit tired because I was dreaming. Mood is a little bit better than it was over the last two days (main issues are motivation and apathy). Nausea continues to make small incremental gains. A bit of tightness in my stomach which is exactly what happened last time (usually stops at day 30).

EDIT: No side effects other than shortage of sleep and NAUSEA but I prefer that so I don't consider it a side effect. Also getting some general chills, not cold, just chills. Not sure WTF is up with that, just happens every once in a while


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> I have both. But since antidepressants I've only had the anhedonia left, though it looks like good things are happening since adding abilify to my wellbutrin. *knocks on wood*


I gave abilify to a family member who uses paxil and is in remission, because they have some issues with focus and tiredness at times (because of paxil).

Did it give you energy right away? They took 2.5 mg and felt nothing (possibly even a bit MORE of tiredness) so they stopped after dosing it once.

I thought it binds to dopamine receptors at a very low dose and hits no SERT receptors.


----------



## Mr Bacon (Mar 10, 2012)

kehcorpz said:


> Hehe i'm the opposite, when I'm depressed or have anhedonia I can't even listen to music. Once the anhedonia lifts I start listening. Like today I did some white zombie listening while cleaning the house.


Cleaning your house? geeez I'm impressed. One day I'll get there, you just wait and see! :b (I'm not even sarcastic btw)


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

@Gilmour, first time I took it was before bed and I couldn't sleep all night, 2nd day was tired as a result but still felt jacked up. This was at 2mg. Anyways first few days of 5mg I was really tired until I took my wellbutrin which would give me my energy back. Today I woke up at 6am after only sleeping 6 hours and I was wide awake. And Just feel really content. So thus far today I haven't gotten tired. 1 day is ridiculous in terms of testing. Most people from my reading will be tired for up to 2 weeks. Now Im mixing it with wellbutrin so may be an exception.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Don't many get a dopamine kick within a day though? That's what we were expecting and then they would continue on it if it made them feel energetic at least.

On a side note I am now taking a B complex as a base (to not miss any vitamins) + 50 mg of B6 + 1000 mcg of B12 and 1 tab of vitamin D. 

My calcium levels were fine so no need for anything. 

Technically if Nardil started the nausea (which it did at day 2), will it DEFINITELY resolve? Like I can't just go on being nauseous in perpetuity right?


----------



## Govinda (May 7, 2012)

Thanks for the advice gilmourr. I think I'm going to go down to 30 mg for a slow, slow decrease in mao. Plus I think even if mao doesn't go down initially, at least I'm not exacerbating the situation with more nardil. 

When I had the freakout the other day it didn't feel exactly like it was at 60 mg. I didn't have gross myoclonic jerks, trouble urinating or real noticeable hyper-reflexia. But I did have that seritonergic feeling of rubbery restlessness in my mouth area. Its always like I can't hold an expression without twitching. I think this has to do with the same mechanism by which serotonin overdose cause TD. I also felt this weird sensation in my throat when I was about to speak. It was this bizarre kind of pressure build-up that I've heard people talk about with stutters. The situation was this: I had to meet up with someone from work at a local gym, and once I was face to face with them I felt like my body was locked into tracks on the course to absolute panic. I couldn't look away from their eyes, because I was afraid that I would never be able to muster the strength to meet their eyes again. So I was locked into this stare, with heat and redness building in my face, a twitchy mouth, and that pressure in my throat that messed up my speech. It was terrifying, and I had to walk away in the middle of the conversation and splash cold water on my face to calm down. This can't happen if I am to live anything like the life I want. 

A couple things pop-up as warning prior to these feelings of nardil-induced anxiety: gas and muscular tension in the mouth area. Not sure if you've noticed these things.

I'll stay at 30 mg for a while and report back in a few days. Hope things go well for you.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Mr Bacon said:


> Cleaning your house? geeez I'm impressed. One day I'll get there, you just wait and see! :b (I'm not even sarcastic btw)


I figured, if depression/anhedonia is the same in all then postponing cleaning the house never ends. hehe


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Govinda said:


> Thanks for the advice gilmourr. I think I'm going to go down to 30 mg for a slow, slow decrease in mao. Plus I think even if mao doesn't go down initially, at least I'm not exacerbating the situation with more nardil.
> 
> When I had the freakout the other day it didn't feel exactly like it was at 60 mg. I didn't have gross myoclonic jerks, trouble urinating or real noticeable hyper-reflexia. But I did have that seritonergic feeling of rubbery restlessness in my mouth area. Its always like I can't hold an expression without twitching. I think this has to do with the same mechanism by which serotonin overdose cause TD. I also felt this weird sensation in my throat when I was about to speak. It was this bizarre kind of pressure build-up that I've heard people talk about with stutters. The situation was this: I had to meet up with someone from work at a local gym, and once I was face to face with them I felt like my body was locked into tracks on the course to absolute panic. I couldn't look away from their eyes, because I was afraid that I would never be able to muster the strength to meet their eyes again. So I was locked into this stare, with heat and redness building in my face, a twitchy mouth, and that pressure in my throat that messed up my speech. It was terrifying, and I had to walk away in the middle of the conversation and splash cold water on my face to calm down. This can't happen if I am to live anything like the life I want.
> 
> ...


Alright sounds good, 30 mg should definitely be low enough to get MAO under 45 mg, it just might take awhile. Hopefully you can stick it out as long as you're not dealing with 60 mg side effects, but know that it CAN take awhile because my side effects took 14 days at 0 to go away, and I was also on 30 and 15 mg for 3 days each as well. So it might take up to a month.

And yeah, I'm hoping this works as well. My nausea is slowly getting better, it feels about 25% better since it began, it's slow but I'm just really hoping it goes away. My mood has picked up a bit as well since 3 days ago, but it's still bumpy until day 30-33. I think it worked so well last time because I was coming out of MAJOR MAJOR depression last time (that was going on for 3 months straight).

Just need to preoccupy myself, keep my head in the right place. Good luck, I think we both can get a lot out of Nardil and an augmentation strategy if it all goes according to plan.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Also, does anyone have suggestions of sleeping aids that DO NOT have a strong NRI mechanism?

I need to replace seroquel because I think it aggravates my coldness because of it's strong NRI property.

My ideas atm are...

- Klonopin (but I don't want to take this more than every 3-4 days because I don't like using benzos since they **** you up).

- Trimipramine for short term use, or maybe amitryptiline to augment nardil as a long term thing. Both have only low to moderate NRI properties.

** Can't use remeron, quetiapine, doxylamine succinate because they all either have NRI issues or cause severe side effects


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

zopiclone is the best sleep aid ever in my opinion. The best part is that I can use it for 4 months at a time and then slowly titrate my dose down and not be dependant on it. Benadryl is also good, but it knocks you out cold while zopiclone simply lets you stay awake after taking it but if you go to sleep you won't have trouble falling asleep.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

aren't Z drugs REALLY bad? I know ambien was awesome but that **** was like a party drug, I'd become ecstatic and euphoric. At the same time I could either sleep or party, it's weird. Maybe that's what hypnotic drugs do?


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Ambien is zopildem not zopiclone. But either way I've never heard of zopiclone being really bad. I mean they are shown to be carcinogens but in vitro only and so are a lot of drugs we are on hehe.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

day 18, mood is continuously getting better I believe and anxiety is as well.

Still very nauseous at times. I stopped B6 vitamins 24 hours ago because I think this is the cause. How long will it take for 18 days of accumulated B6 vitamins to eliminate from my system? I took 125 mg/day.


----------



## Broshious2 (Jan 21, 2009)

kehcorpz said:


> Ambien is zopildem not zopiclone. But either way I've never heard of zopiclone being really bad. I mean they are shown to be carcinogens but in vitro only and so are a lot of drugs we are on hehe.


Wikipedia is none to fond of it.


----------



## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

Is there anything that you can take for the nausea at the meantime?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

No, zantac interacts with Nardil (or it did when I took it), gravol doesn't work, pepto doesn't work, benzos don't work either. Right now the nausea has reduced I'd say by 50%, so it has become better. Basically the episodes/transient spells are a lot less bad but they're still occuring. 

I stopped B6, B12 and vitamin D atm, since I think vitamin B6 is causing it. My doc (well one of them, for neurology work) said he believes after 20 days of using B6 @ 125 mg I should know whether it was the B6 in like 5-6 days probably. So we'll see if it clears up. I'm guessing a lot of it will excrete in my urine in 24 hours, but it might take a few days for it to just be entirely back to normal, iunno.

Right now my depression is reduced I'd say by 40%. Anxiety probably 50%, maybe a bit more actually, it's going well again. Little bit of general chills in general, but I'm not cold, maybe it's the med getting into my system?


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

does the nausea last all day or for a few hours? i get it for a few hours starting soon after a nardil dose.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

it seems to come and go, it's not after the nardil dose. Today I've noticed an even bigger reduction, hopefully it continues! Right now based on the last 3 days I still am convinced it was the B6, but the next 3 days will tell. Any longer than that and it's probably the nardil which is fine too.

But, you're on nardil? What day? how's it going?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 20, stomach feels scrunched up, kind of like I've been lightly punched in the stomach. This happened last time, it went away last time a month in with a lot of my anxiety.

Nausea still happening, had a good hour of some severe nausea but now it's calmed down again, wasn't doing anything, **** just happens. It'll go away too though.

Quite exhausted and tired, very similar to last time. Basically things continue to look like they're following the same path to the effect I had last time.

For the last 2 days I have begun to get general chills, starting in my head, down the neck. I'm not cold, nor are my hands or feet cold. Just chills. Weird. It's probably still moving around in my system. 

Not really concerned about anything at this moment, just recording in case I ever have to restart AGAIN, just building up as much relevant info as possible to make things easy 

EDIT: Spoke with my rTMS doctor (not psych) and he said abilify and lithium are good augment ideas if rTMS doesn't work, but I'm excited about it.


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

I've been on and off it for years, i often get sick of the insomnia so i stop it for a while then go back on.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

sounds like you're too high. But I'm guessing lower doses didn't work? I wouldn't be able to survive on 75 mg and 1-2 hr sleeps.

60 mg is okay at 4-5 hour sleeps. 45 mg is nice though with 7 hour sleeps.

So tired last two days. Day 20-25 is the worst for tiredness/fatigue (according to last time). Bit of a pain knowing that the next bump isn't for another 10 days or so.

BTW, if I took abilify with nardil, would my SERT levels increase? Or would my norepinephrine levels decrease a bit? I'm trying to get my NE levels down or SERT levels down so that I'm a BIT warmer. Need something to either raise my net SERT levels or drop my net NE levels.

EDIT: Also looking back last time, I thought biaxin (antibiotic, clarithrymycin) was to blame for coldness because of CYP inhibition. But I increased to 60 mg about 2 weeks before that.
Would CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 inhibitors increase nardil's potency or does nardil have a specific metabolic process? I know almost all AD's use those CYP's


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

Im only taking 30mg but that only gives me 3 hour sleeps and thats with seroquel as well to help.
I think i mentioned it before but did you look at clonodine to lower your NE ?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Yep! I have looked at that. That's what I initially asked for, but it got swapped for amlodipen. 

Amlodipen was really bad, and I'm just a bit hesitant to try another add on that isn't an AD. Need to check if there would be any interactions. Clonidine works on calcium channels as well I believe even though it's an a2 agonist so it might be similar to amlodipen given that amlodipen is a calcium channel blocker.

Plus I'm still confused about how an a2 agonist would LOWER my level of norepinephrine. It just says it increases the levels of NE to fool my brain into thinking there's more NE so my brain starts to produce less NE. Wouldn't this create an initial period of anxiety and higher NE?

EDIT: also I'm not sure if I need to lower my levels of NE, I just get brain shivers. It seems to me like it's a lack of serotonin issue. Since serotonin withdrawals have brain shivers. It's confusing. I want to wait it out, but the brain shivers are seriously annoying. I didn't get them last time I was on Nardil. Last time on Nardil I was just a slight bit cold at times. These are just shivers that give me good bumps, but my circulation and heat seems fine

Also I think the shivers started or got worse when I stopped B6 and B12. I thought they were causing nausea, but I'm 4-5 days into since my last B6/B12 dose and even though my nausea is much better it's still not entirely gone. B6 seems like what was MORE likely to cause the nausea, while B12 isn't. Does the lack of vitamins seem responsible for brain shivers?


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

Stimulating a2 receptors inhibits the release of NE. It's the opposite of remeron which antaganises a2 receptors therby increasing neurotrasmitters like NE.

As for calcium effect i think it's more an effect in the brain, in there it causes some neurotransmitter release. Calcium channel blockers like you used for hypertension block the calcium channels in the heart muscles etc.

You can test if it's seratonin by taking the tiniest pinch of some ssri tablet dust, if you want to risk it.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

viper1431 said:


> Stimulating a2 receptors inhibits the release of NE. It's the opposite of remeron which antaganises a2 receptors therby increasing neurotrasmitters like NE.
> 
> As for calcium effect i think it's more an effect in the brain, in there it causes some neurotransmitter release. Calcium channel blockers like you used for hypertension block the calcium channels in the heart muscles etc.
> 
> You can test if it's seratonin by taking the tiniest pinch of some ssri tablet dust, if you want to risk it.


Yeah I think I'll do the 5HTP thing. But waiting to be under psych supervision first. That's January 12th. Until then, I have vitamins because I'm not augmenting nardil until after rTMS (if it doesn't work). But I've read so many positive things that I can't see how it won't. IM GOING TO BE FREE 

EDIT: How many days should I let the shivering go on for? I don't feel like going out because I feel so sick and tired from shivering. It's a real problem. I don't feel anxious at all at home (which says that's the cause of shivering) though maybe it's subconscious anxiety from nardil?

Stupid side effect. I wish this **** would normalize, I keep getting new side effects that didn't happen last time. It's super weird to be warm and be shivering every 1 minute.

EDIT: I think it's because of a B6 deficiency or a really low level of B6. Or just levels of B6 I'm not used to because phenelzine depletes B6 by 54% and I drink alcohol which furthers the depletion. Not to mention, I got the chills after stopping B6. I just don't know how I can take B6 without getting nauseous. Maybe I just need to take way less. Not sure how much would get my levels to a normal level. hopefully taking something like 20 mg will be enough because I think even 50 mg is too much for my stomach to handle.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

god today I feel like ****. Pretty sure that vitamins are key to Nardil working so well. 

I don't feel majorly depressed but I definitely feel worse than I did before going off them. Feel slow and heavy, and I feel bipolar (hopefully I didn't offend anyone, I'm just snapping at like ****ing everyone today) along with my main side effect shivering even though I'm not cold.

Doc appt in one hour, I guess I'll get a blood test with vitamins


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

If it makes you feel any better, I feel great.  haha

Why can't people realize that 5-htp is worthless. You will have serotonin in your peripheral system not in your CNS. It will turn to serotonin right in your gut via carboxylase and once it is serotonin it can't cross the BBB.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I feel great.  haha
> 
> Why can't people realize that 5-htp is worthless. You will have serotonin in your peripheral system not in your CNS. It will turn to serotonin right in your gut via carboxylase and once it is serotonin it can't cross the BBB.


So then why have people come down with serotonin syndrome by using a MAOI and 5HTP?

That's great that you're feeling well, I'll have my turn again. MAOI's work flawlessly when they work, but getting there is such a *****, like this right now. I just want my old **** back, 70% reduction in anxiety, 60% reduction in depression and my only side effect being constipation.

BTW keh, when vitamin B6 is responsible for "synthesis of serotonin" what does that mean if I have very low B6? That my serotonin levels start dropping? Because my shivers feel identical to serotonin withdrawal. They feel like "brain shivers." I feel like I have had the flu for the last 6 days, general chills, fatigue, tiredness, more depression, can't concentrate, no motivation, don't want to listen to music, just blah. Up until I was taking the vitamins **** was going up, now it's going down. I just don't know how to get B6 in me without it causing nausea as a side effect.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> So then why have people come down with serotonin syndrome by using a MAOI and 5HTP?
> 
> That's great that you're feeling well, I'll have my turn again. MAOI's work flawlessly when they work, but getting there is such a *****, like this right now. I just want my old **** back, 70% reduction in anxiety, 60% reduction in depression and my only side effect being constipation.
> 
> BTW keh, when vitamin B6 is responsible for "synthesis of serotonin" what does that mean if I have very low B6? That my serotonin levels start dropping? Because my shivers feel identical to serotonin withdrawal. They feel like "brain shivers." I feel like I have had the flu for the last 6 days, general chills, fatigue, tiredness, more depression, can't concentrate, no motivation, don't want to listen to music, just blah. Up until I was taking the vitamins **** was going up, now it's going down. I just don't know how to get B6 in me without it causing nausea as a side effect.


Serotonin syndrome is a series of symptoms that characterize the syndrome. You can get these if it builds up in the peripheral system. In fact, you will feel way worse if you have too much in the peripheral system. We are talking serious nausea.

How do you know your B6 is low? You probably get enough from food sources. The rest if you take in supplement form is peed out. Your body won't use more than it needs.


----------



## maninabox (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm on Nardil. Any safe supplements that actually work to combat how hard it is to orgasm while on Nardil? :um


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> Serotonin syndrome is a series of symptoms that characterize the syndrome. You can get these if it builds up in the peripheral system. In fact, you will feel way worse if you have too much in the peripheral system. We are talking serious nausea.
> 
> How do you know your B6 is low? You probably get enough from food sources. The rest if you take in supplement form is peed out. Your body won't use more than it needs.


I think it's low because I take Nardil first that on average reduces B6 plasma levels by 54%, on top of that I drink alcohol usually 7-10 drinks in a week, but last week I had 5 in a night so it's more like 10-15. Also I drink coffee twice a day and sugar. Those all reduce B6. I also stopped taking my supplements because they were making me nauseous. 2 days later I have severe chills (not cold though) just shivers, tiredness, can't concentrate, not as happy, VERY IRRITABLE. Severe chills now going on 5 days, and I'm not sick at all. Just shivering for no reason. Or maybe I have mono, who knows.

I don't really care WHAT it is but B6 is the most likely.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

maninabox said:


> I'm on Nardil. Any safe supplements that actually work to combat how hard it is to orgasm while on Nardil? :um


uhh nope. You just have to reduce the dose. Or wait for it to pass, but that SE usually takes between months or never.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

K well most fish, meat, legumes, beans, grains and veggies have some level of b6. I would just take a b-complex 50 or 100 and see how it goes. It could be a coincidence too as the symptoms may have disappeared because of time not quitting the b-vitamins.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

well it's definitely the vitamin because I took the vitamin last night and this morning I was nauseous. 

So iunno, should I just try using a B complex instead? I definitely am not using my 100 mg tabs anymore. 

Seriously, I feel like Nardil has stopped working the last 2 days. I've felt tired, irritable and all tonight I've felt completely hopeless and sunk. I don't know what the **** is going on, but I'm going back in the hole where my head just thinks about death and ****. I seriously need to find a way to get some ****ing B6 in my system through food.

I literally feel like I'm in a different realm since the weekend.

EDIT: Couldn't get a B6 test because it's not covered under OHIP, need to find a private lab


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Maybe Nardil isn't working this time around? I heard people complaining after stopping it and going back on that it never works again. Did you get a different brand this time? Going from one generic brand to another can make a huge difference.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

No it was working. Now it's been going downhill since the weekend. Since I've developed these shivers.

I'm gonna buy some tests tmmr privately downtown, wtf could I get that could explain this?

Right now I'm doing B6 and I'm thinking of doing calcium since I am lactose, don't eat eggs or dairy or take supplements. Wouldn't it be possible for me to be hypocalceiumic?

All I know is something feels wrong, I feel tired, exhausted, my mind feels slow, I can't concentrate, I feel more depressed and have shivers yet I'm not cold. I also am irritable as fack. And this started like 2-3 days ago.

I can get any of these done, http://tests.lifelabs.com/browse_by_test.aspx

I also am HIGHLY gluten intolerant, but apparently not celiac, but this hasn't been confirmed, so much ****.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

You can take a pill before food with lactose that lets you digest it, called lactase or something. Or you could eat 0% MF cottage cheese, no lactose in that.

No such thing as gluten intolerant. If you were celiac you would know. Gluten causes the immune system to attack so bad that your gut would be in so much pain you'd want to kill yourself. It also destroys all your internals. Celiac is a real disease, gluten free is a fad. It's likely something other than gluten or psychosomatic.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

k thank god, I wasn't sure. All I know is that I can't handle a few gluten items.

I found something tonight called lactaid and have been chugging milk. I definitely just got 1000 mg of calcium right there and I took 2000 IU of vitamin D. 

If it is hypocalciumia how quickly will it reverse? The shivering for no reason is really making me paranoid because I don't want to have permanent nerve damage or some ****. This seems really out of the norm.

EDIT: Well, I'm giving it 7-8 days, if the shivers don't go away I might go off Nardil, because the only reason I'm on this med is that it used to make me happy, and being indoors all day shivering because my nerves are ****ed isn't making me happy


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

Spread out the milk chugging, your body will only absorb around 300mg of calcium and then it stops for a while so you need to spread calcium intake out in small doses throughout the day.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

viper1431 said:


> Spread out the milk chugging, your body will only absorb around 300mg of calcium and then it stops for a while so you need to spread calcium intake out in small doses throughout the day.


Alright, yeah I heard about that, I also am taking 2000 IU of vitamin D to help absorb. If it is a calcium deficiency I'm guessing it's not severe since I'm not hospitalized. Can you get out of a deficiency with just this method of eating foods with pretty decent levels of calcium? And does it fix itself within like a week?

I have many symptoms of hypocalceimia, but I'm really looking at vitamin deficiencies with nerve damage because of me shivering for no reason. Are shivers caused by damage to myelan sheath or something or would it be from neurotransmitters not firing or a slowdown and less serotonin getting in my system, thus I'm going through serotonin withdrawal or brain shivers?

** btw, since I was chugging milk last night I didn't think twice about grabbing the milk jug (one my family uses with lactose). Whole bowl of cereal with that. ****.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Calcium deficiencies to that point are rare. See your body starts using calcium deposits from your bones if it needs it for other processes. So you're really only at risk for bone problems/diseases. 

Watch out with the milk, isn't there tyramine in it which mao's can cause a build up of and you get pretty much high blood pressure, shivers, and you name it. 

Anyways, if you have to think about it this much then the drug is probably not right for you. I take my drugs and I forget I even took them and go about my days.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

I don't think about my drugs at all, I DO think about why I'm shivvering constantly when I'm warm though, wouldn't you?

Not just going to ignore something like that, just like how I didn't ignore when I was having vasoconstriction and my hands and feet were almost blue.

There's just something causing this and I need to figure it out. Nardil is the ONLY drug that even lets me not think about things like depression and anxiety as much. 

It's a weird side effect/symptom. I just have a REALLY hard time believing it's a side effect of Nardil as 1) I have been on it 3 times now, this is the first time this has happened 2) It happened 36 hours after stopping vitamin B6, which is REALLY interesting timing 3) There is no side effect as shivering 4) I got my B6 test done so we'll know in 5 days.

I also doubt that it's B6 or B12 toxicity as I took only 100 mg of B6 for 20 days and I took like 1000-2000 mcg for a week, those aren't dangerous levels

EDIT: If B6 comes back normal then I probably will test hypoparathyroidism since that is the only other thing I can think of which may be from low calcium levels. And if that comes back negative I'll probably go off Nardil because it's seriously an issue


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm simply saying if the drug is causing you all these problems then it may not be worth taking. It's all about side effect versus benefits ratio. And once again only thing I can think of is the generic brand has changed. I know from the health Canada database there are a buttload of generic brands available for nardil. Try switching to brand to see how that goes. It makes a huge diff for people on wellbutrin. Some get side effects on generic but not on brand. There's obviously a reason for that, but only the drug companies know.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Well Nardil doesn't usually give me any side effects that I can't deal with at 45 mg that's why I restarted it. It's just right now I shiver for no reason. Maybe it's a peripheral neuropathy

I use ERFA nardil I don't think there is an alternate generic

EDIT: Got a headache also for the last 4 hours, maybe something to do with trying to load up on calcium or B6 or another vitamin through a lot of food


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Yah you're right I was thinking selegiline, Nardil only has ERFA. 

Yah check your BP man. Milk has a lot of tyramine and MAO + Tyramine = hypertensive crisis. Usually you get a headache when you have too much tyramine. That means stop eating anymore!


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

It may also be that vitamin B6 is required to be sufficient with Nardil to inhibit GABA-T and build up levels of GABA. Maybe with not taking vitamin B6 and having low B6 GABA-T will begin to build back up lowering GABA.

Wouldn't raising GABA then lowering it because of GABA-T feel exactly like a protracted withdrawal or drug withdrawal? Maybe that's why I'm shivering and I feel like I have the flu and am irritable as ****.

EDIT: I'll check my BP in an hour, but I don't remember ever reading that milk has tyramine

http://www.fdnow.org/images/TyramineFreeList.pdf

Says there that milk is good, it's just cheese

EDIT AGAIN: Maybe I should take a benzo to test it out? Though this might not work because if GABA-T has built up then it'll just eat up the benzo GABA


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

I'm not sure if this would help me much given that it's a much smaller amount than my 100 mg tablets, but maybe I really don't need that much and it's just causing nausea. My doctor said, "What? 100 mg? I'd never tell you to take that much" So maybe my diet + this sublingual B complex will work

http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Bounty-Vitamin-Complex-Sublingual/dp/B001G7QPC8

I wish it had folate within it as well, but it doesn't. I haven't read up on Nardil doing anything particularly alarming to folate so I'll probably just test it to make sure but I would think B6 is much more likely because Nardil is a hydrazine and those eat up B6 fast

Also forgot to say this is day 24, but right now my symptoms since stopping the vitamins are... more depression, irritability, tiredness, headaches, chills and shivers but not cold, anxiety, unmotivation, apathy, huge nose dive in my sex drive, dried/cracked lips, cognitive slowing and a general feeling of unwellness.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

day 25, still having shivers and chills, woke up at 1 pm today super tired and lethargic which is out of the norm being on nardil (usually up at 7 am with energy). 

Had crazy wild dreams last night even though when Nardil is in my system it shuts down REM completely so I don't dream. Somethings definitely not working because all these symptoms are not Nardil. 

I have noooo idea what to do. This isn't poop out of Nardil, I've only been on it for max maybe 10 months to a year for all the times being on it. If it IS poop out the major depression will come back, so that's the clear indicator.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> This isn't poop out of Nardil, I've only been on it for max maybe 10 months to a year for all the times being on it. If it IS poop out the major depression will come back, so that's the clear indicator.












Seriously certain aspects can poop out. For me Zoloft/Remeron never made me get depressed again but after a while the anhedonia came back so I considered it poop out.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Today I actually believe my shivers were decreasing, I was out in -4 degree weather and I actually wasn't dying (usually 5 degrees celsius makes me cold).

The only supplements I took for the past few days were B6 (5-10 mg tablets), Vitamin D (2000 IU) and a multivitamin. No B12 for 5 days

Now today, I took a new liquid B complex because I'm trying to get more B6.
It has this (I took half a regular dose)...

Vitamin B-1 (Thiamine HCL)	50 mg 
Vitamin B-2 (Riboflavin 5’-phosphate) 50 mg 
Vitamin B-3 (Niacinamide)	50 mg 
Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxal 5’-phosphate)	50 mg 
Vitamin B-12 (Cyanocobalamin)	75 mcg 
Vitamin B-12 (Methylcobalamin) 925 mcg 
Vitamin B-7 (Biotin)	1000 mcg 
Vitamin B-9 (Folic acid) 1000 mcg 
Vitamin B-5 (D-panthenol)	100 mg 
Choline bitartrate 50 mg 
Inositol 50 mg 
PABA (Para-amino benzoic acid) 50 mg 

Almost like 30 minutes after I start having more chills/shivers. Is it possible that 1500 mcg of B12 is too much for me a day and it's causing me anxiety that's not noticeable but noticeable to my nerves and giving me chills/shivers? BTW the 1500 mcg is from this and a multivitamin

EDIT: Before supplementing my B12 levels were 336 Pmol/L, and I probably use anywhere from 1000-1500 mcg a day when I supplement. Could this push it too far up? I know the upper bound is apparently 590 pmol/L


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 26

After 5 days of my mood being ****, I think it has slightly picked up a bit.
May be because I have been using vitamins since wednesday now.

Wednesday been drinking milk for calcium (lactose free, 100 mg B6)
Thursday (milk, 20 mg B6)
Friday (milk, 30 mg B6, 3000 mcg of B12)
Saturday (no milk, 30 mg B6, 2000 mcg of B12)

** hopefully I'm not overdoing it with the B12. I'm just doing it to help out with mood, but I really don't like using it because I don't like the fact that it can potentially increase anxiety and I'm NOT sure how long high levels of B12 take to get out of your system.

I ALSO don't know how much B6 and B12 ends up in my body after getting metabolized.

----------------------------

symptoms: Still have this weird feeling like crying but can't (which is atypical for day 26 on Nardil) Sleep is much better from last night, shivers were happening this morning again, but after dosing my B6 + B12 I feel like they'v e stopped, it's just 30 mins so maybe they'll come back later tonight. Also, taking Nardil after my B6, I feel quite tired maybe it's the GABA synthesizing

Still super tired, motivation may be coming back a bit.

If the shivers go away it probably means it was a B6 issue, and then I'm not sure how long it's pushed my Nardil schedule back  I was planning on feeling 70% remission by christmas  (That would've been 49 days in, but I'm not sure how much this B6 ****/it not working has pushed me back).

Thoughts?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Starting to think the B6 will help but the B12 is causing chills.

So I'm going to just do B6. I know when I stopped vitamins entirely I was more depressed but my chills actually got a better actually after 6 days for a day. Then I dose again and my mood went up but so did my chills (but that was both B6 and B12).

So I'm going to do 50 mg of B6 a day.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

> *Phenelzine reduces plasma vitamin B6.*
> 
> Malcolm DE, Yu PH, Bowen RC, O'Donovan C, Hawkes J, Hussein M.
> *Source*
> ...


Seems like within that range no correlation with vitamin b6 level. The RDI for b6 is 2mg so you probably get that from food easily. Don't go overboard as I heard too much b6 can render the drug useless.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, that article just says it reduces serum levels of B6 on average by 54% regardless of whether you are on 30 mg, 45, 60, 75 or 90.

And that's average. In some patients it has been up to 90% if you look at the other pub med journals for it

abnormal levels in B6 here
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6470198

complex interactions with b6
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6342968

** looking for the one where patients had drops of 90%+

Realized it was your article that has it

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1188621/?page=2

"PLP levels in patients ranged
from 1 nM to 160 nM with a mean level of 34.2 nM"

btw, what is a "nM" I thought they measure in PMOL/L or at least they do on my lab tests (or that was when I got a B12 test done)


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Right I mean doesn't matter which amount you take. From the studies I'm reading most of them show about lowering it by less than half. There's 1 case of a deficiency but they suspect he didn't eat properly due to depression and they say to eat foods with b6 or take a supplement.

Here you see other people mention b6 and nardil giving them severe mood swings.

http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl?post=/babble/20100811/msgs/959012.html#959012


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Are you serious? Low levels = Nardil doesn't work and HIGH levels = Nardil doesn't work?

****.

So I guess I wait for my B6 test and then go from there.

BTW, thanks a lot for that link, I haven't come across that.

So if I've been taking about 100 mg since I started nardil (20 days) then nothing for 4 days, then 50 mg each day until today...would you suggest I stop all vitamins until Nardil starts working again, or just go down to 2, 5 or 10 mg?

would this be cool?
http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Bounty-Vitamin-Complex-Sublingual/dp/B001G7QPC8

I bought it already, lol.

****, if TOO much B6 is what is wrong, I love you man, seriously. If you get my Nardil working again, I'm literally sending you a christmas present


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

It could be that the active form in supplements is too potent who knows. Just eat foods high in b6 man. Whole grain wheat, garlic and hazelnuts or pistachios and you're pretty much set.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Well I've been doing brown rice and vector cereal, basically I make sure I get 100% everyday, so that would be good enough?

ALSO: last time I was on Nardil I did like vitamin B6 100 mg every like 7 days or something I didn't even take it everyday so maybe you're right!


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

To be honest don't know about Rice, but whole grain pasta is guaranteed!

You can find it in the organic section in grocery stores. Costco also sells like 6 boxes of this good stuff for cheap.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

In toronto I don't even think there is a costco an hour hour, they're always on the outskirts like walmart.

Bulk barn? I'll find some!


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 27, woke up at 8 am, no dreaming.

Doing no vitamins today, just going to wait until I get me 2 mg B6/1000mcg B12 sublingual supplement.

Right now I think I'm starting to feel like I'm my shivering frequency continues to stay more decreased, my head feels a little dopey/tired (might be that Nardil is starting to kick in now with GABA/serotonin). I also believe I am feeling less ****ty mood wise and am beginning to think a bit more regularly. But it's premature, so I'll continue to go easy on both the B6 and B12 

I'll do an edit post at the end of the day to see if the frequency stays the same.

EDIT: For 5 hours I had no shivers (they happen every like 3-4 mins usually) the entire time, and my Nardil REALLY started kicking in! Now it's 2 pm and my shivers are coming back. I haven't taken any B6 today, my serotonin levels might just be fluctuating to get used to the lower levels of B6 (it might just be volatile). Not sure what to do exactly since I've been basically taking 30 mg of B6 and 1000-2000 mcg B12 for the last 5 days. But I'm going to just do 2-4 mg of B6 for the next few days and see if that works. Super confusing, but ****, those 5 hours I felt ****ING GREAT.

**Keh if you could cue in on your opinion that would be great. Since I've responded for the FIRST time in 8-9 days to Nardil (this was for sure nardil) my thereupeutic window must be between 2mg (daily value) and 30 mg (which I was taking for the last 4 days). Do you think I should really just stick to B6 from foods or get 10-15 mg from some liquid B6?

It also might be another B vitamin that I need. My liquid stuff has every B vitamin. Though can any other excess/deficiency of another B vitamin cause this? I looked at most of them and it doesn't look like it.

** and btw do you think it matters when I take my B vitamin? Should I always take it before taking nardil if I do use a vitamin? I would think that my levels wouldn't be affected much if I do the same amount each day


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Make sure you get real whole wheat pasta not the processed crap. It looks dirty. I get the grisspasta brand:

http://www.grisspasta.com/product_info.php?prodId=20&catId=3&rec=&prod=1&nut=&ret=&food=&ind=

notice how dirty the pasta looks, that means it's non processed whole wheat.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

It says there's no B6 in that pasta

What about the dosage question above for B6


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

All pasta has B6. Nutritional labels require only the 4 you see, they don't always put all the vitamins available as it would cost more to print. All whole wheat pasta has tonnes of B-vitamins. Read about how whole wheat pasta works. There's 2 layers of nutrition. The processing strips those that's why you will see processed pasta with added b vitamins in ingredients.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

http://www.livestrong.com/article/3...-of-whole-wheat-vs-regular-spaghetti-noodles/



> The vitamin content of whole wheat spaghetti is significantly higher than that of regular spaghetti. B-vitamins including thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid and vitamin B-6 are all present in whole wheat spaghetti at levels between 1.6 and 5 times higher than in spaghetti made with white flour.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5744/2

nutritional data, a cup has 20% RDA vitamin b6.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5744/2
> 
> nutritional data, a cup has 20% RDA vitamin b6.


I think I'd need something a bit higher in B6 nutritional value

Before my Nardil kicked in I actually had..

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/breakfast-cereals/1516/2 (which on that website you linked says it has 3.7 mg. I'm not even sure if that can be right, that's 186% DV)

though it's weird..the website (official) gives different nutritional stats..

http://www.all-bran.ca/en/cereal/All-Bran_Original_cereal.aspx#

** Seems like it's high in folate, B12 AND B6. I'm not sure which one did it, or if it was the cereal or the vitamins for the past few days.

I'll try some in a bit. So should I aim for 10 mg today in B6 foods?


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2446/2

1 cup garlic is 84% of rda for vitamin b6.

I'm having this now.

Whole wheat pasta with garden tomato and mushroom sauce with crumpled 0.0% mf cottage cheese, olives and crushed raw garlic. Sooo good man.

186% just means that it is 86% more than the require daily amount set out by FDA. The daily values are based on studies and how much is required to stay healthy.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

So then since they're the same product but the B6 % is reported differently, I'm guessing they used a different set of standard daily values.

Do you know how long it takes for vitamins to get absorbed?

EDIT: Do you think it might have just been the coffee instead? I heard coffee increases serotonin levels and since this feels like serotonin shivers maybe that's what helped. Caffeine apparently crosses the BBB, I'm just not sure how quickly it would.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Maybe, but they seem to measure 1/2 a cup as 31 grams and the other place 36 grams. I think one is Canadian and one American. Canada may have different RDA's than America.

caffeine increases norepinephrine not serotonin. It binds to adenisone receptors. But coffee also causes absorption issues with vitamins if you drink it anywhere close to eating time. Watch out also for whole wheat as it has l-tryptophan in it. Don't want to get serotonin syndrome 

As far as absorption it's different in everyone. It could continue to absorb through transit at 24+ hours.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> Maybe, but they seem to measure 1/2 a cup as 31 grams and the other place 36 grams. I think one is Canadian and one American. Canada may have different RDA's than America.
> 
> caffeine increases norepinephrine not serotonin. It binds to adenisone receptors. But coffee also causes absorption issues with vitamins if you drink it anywhere close to eating time. Watch out also for whole wheat as it has l-tryptophan in it. Don't want to get serotonin syndrome
> 
> As far as absorption it's different in everyone. It could continue to absorb through transit at 24+ hours.


That's what I thought about coffee. How it causes vasoconstriction and NE issues, but why does wiki say that it increases serotonin? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Mechanism_of_action

Also if whole wheat is heavy in bran flakes then maybe that was it. I had about 2 bowls of it and for the next 5-6 hours I felt amazing and my shivers were gone.

So then what, do I try that again, and if it works just **** the B6 **** and supplement tryptophan?

EDIT: But regardless, that doesn't make sense, I shouldn't have to supplement with tryptophan since it DID work before. So there must be a reason why I'm not getting enough serotonin from my MAOI. And obviously that wasn't anything close to serotonin syndrome. Serotonin syndrome when I was talking to an ER doc is completely ****ed. I was just genuinely feeling great this morning. My mood is still pretty good (just not great), but the shivers suck


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Serotonin syndrome can cause fever. Not sure why they say it increases serotonin, there's no reference for it. And it doesn't mention it in the adenosine section in wiki. I'd have to see a study. I've seen plenty of it increasing norepinephrine.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

So I took 10 mg of B6 2 hours ago (so I'm about 20 mg of B6 on the day) and I've been again shivering much less though I didn't get that great feeling like earlier (feeling of just genuinely happy), but I'm pretty certain even the liquid form makes me nauseous and tired. It's ridiculous. I'm not sure if it's being tired but I also feel slower in the head. Like earlier I felt so alert and with it. No confusion, just happy clear, level headed.

Tomorrow I'll just be sticking to foods with B6 since I don't think the liquid will work long term as the nausea doesn't usually go away from vitamins. 

Maybe I just should've never used potent B6 vitamins. What might've happened is that they were making my serotonin levels higher than what the MAOI is just without vitamins and when I cut 100 mg down to 0 I was withdrawaling a bit from lack of serotonin (hence the shivering). Maybe if I wait long enough at no vitamins and just get my daily value that will eventually normalize everything.

Keh, do you think that the nausea is caused by B vitamins messing up my stomach or it being from nausea because of the B vitamins getting to my head or something? If you think it's the stomach, then will my sublingual vitamin (2 mg B6, 1000 mcg B12) bypass my stomach and create no nausea?


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Dunno, it's possible you are getting more serotonin in the peripheral system since b6 is involved in the creation of serotonin. The combination of a MAOI would cause a build up of serotonin in your peripheral system, gut, etc. I would stick to food as a lot of the vitamin is released slowly into your system as it goes through transit. Supplements usually hit you pretty quickly and that's not the preferred way to get vitamins.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

yeah good call, vitamins are a *****, I'll stick to the food for the next few days.

Btw, is there anyway I can have a tryptophan deficiency? I was thinking about that after the whole bran flakes thing making me super not depressed and happy.

Apparently people who are lactose (I'm really lactose intolerant) intolerant can't absorb enough tryptophan which may be why I can't generate enough serotonin.

I've been lactose intolerant for awhile now, maybe a lot of my depression is just because I don't have tryptophan to convert to serotonin?

Can I get a test done for that or something?

Then on top of that maybe I have a B6 deficiency (from the hydrazine drug) which is why I can convert barely any tryptophan to serotonin. I have symptoms of B6 deficiency like, angular cheilitis, intertrigo, somnolence, confusion (I'm super slow right now like I said) and is neuropathy maybe the shivers I'm getting? Or it can just be the lack of serotonin. I think it's the lack of serotonin.

BTW copied this from wiki...

Tryptophan is a routine constituent of most protein-based foods or dietary proteins. It is particularly plentiful in chocolate, oats, dried dates, milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, red meat, eggs, fish, poultry, sesame, chickpeas, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, spirulina, bananas, and peanuts.

I have an intolerance for oats, milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, eggs, bananas, turkey and peanuts.

There's some merit to the idea right?

EDIT: TRYPTOPHAN IS A PRECURSOR TO NIACIN = LOW NIACIN = "Mild niacin deficiency has been shown to slow metabolism, causing decreased tolerance to cold." - WIKI


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

I already told you a couple weeks back to try niacin 

Ps have you tried ramping up the nardil to see what happens? what dose are you on ? Granted i do some silly things so it may not be everyone's cup of tea but i'd be hitting 90mg for as long as tolerable just to see what effect it has.. if you warm up then things were low.. if it gets worse then transmitters are currently too high.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

45 mg is the max, anymore and I have severe mood swings. Never. Trying. It. Again. Plus I develop vasoconstriction and severe coldness.

Right now I have shivers and coldness either because of serotonin withdrawal from a B6 deficiency or from the niacin thing.

I think it's B6 because my lips are chapped and the sides of my mouth are cracked like in pictures, I was irritable and ****, I stopped taking my vitamins when it stopped working, had super itchy thighs and **** which is a symptom, tired, etc.

can one of you guys explain this to me, I'm not sure if I get it completely.

"While severe vitamin B6 deficiency results in dermatologic and neurologic changes, less severe cases present with metabolic lesions associated with insufficient activities of the coenzyme pyridoxal phosphate. The most prominent of the lesions is due to impaired tryptophan-niacin conversion."

Does that mean pyri phosphate deficiency (b6) causes a tryptopha-niacin issue or does it mean that a tryptophan-niacin issue causes a pyri phosphate deficiency?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 28. Found some old naturpathic vitamins that I could really use! As I don't remember them making me nauseous at all when I used them.

This actually - http://www.thorne.com/Products/Amin...kv5jXBJhsrpJ1nfpgQhtj1HLpGwLKWmzyz!1923686791

It has a tonne of great vitamins, minerals and amino acids. I'm guessing they replaced L-tryptophan with L-Glutamine.

So I'm going to do 3 servings of these a day. Hopefully that starts evening my stuff out because I believe Nardil is working it's just severely underperforming because of B6 (or else I'd be majorly depressed if it pooped out).

This will give me a wack of many things but in total I'll be having essentially 40 mg of B6 a day from using this (3x daily) + my diet.

If this doesn't work, then I'll purchase my truehope vitamins again since they're chelated and more powerful.

Hopefully it doesn't take 3 weeks to undo this mess, because day 30-33 usually is when Nardil kicks in a lot.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

wow that's an expensive over glorified multi vitamin. I get my multivitamin at Costco which has pretty much almost everything minus a couple things like taurine which I can still buy a full 3 months supply and still end up cheaper.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> wow that's an expensive over glorified multi vitamin. I get my multivitamin at Costco which has pretty much almost everything minus a couple things like taurine which I can still buy a full 3 months supply and still end up cheaper.


Is it a tablet though because I can't do any tablets and I tried the liquid B complex and that didn't work either on my stomach. Either way, I'll see if it works after a week or something. I'd rather be taking some sort of vitamin complex that doesn't destroy my stomach. Also I'm not sure if yours has minerals and amino acids


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> Is it a tablet though because I can't do any tablets and I tried the liquid B complex and that didn't work either on my stomach


So you can put the tablet in water and dilute it, or juice or whatever. Just saying that's a lot of money. You are better off buying Greens+










The spirulina in it is supposed to be really good for ya.










And the multi part is just extra vitamins added. The stuff it contains on its own has vitamins too which are not listed as well as amino acids.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)




----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Looks really good except maybe the organic barley and wheat grass. I'm not sure if that would create indigestion, but I'll try it, I was actually looking at that one earlier


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

I used to use it, the mixed berry one tastes really good.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Stopped all vitamins as I'm now sure that my test will come back with my vitamin b6 levels above the normal range. I don't see how they wouldn't. 

I also have a lot of fatigue, headaches when I took higher doses, mood changes along with memory issues/brain fog (which may be the mood issues but I think it's the fatigue + overdosing).

Hopefully 100 mg for about 2 months followed by lower doses like 25-50 mg for a few weeks isn't going to make my test results an absolute **** show. I'm really hoping that B6 hasn't bound to proteins because the half life is 15-25 days. 

Really hope nothing is permanent, but you never know until it's gone. 

Drinking 8 glasses of water a day and going to exercise to do whatever I can.

**BTW this is day 29. Since I've been chugging water last night, and drank 2 beers along with Nardil I feel like my shivers have been better today (without vitamins). I had shivers today between 4pm and 6 pm and again now 7 - 10 pm. And of course, there is some cold intolerance being outside that causes shivering even though my body is warm outside, weird.

I REALLY hope that the cold intolerance sometimes even though I'm warm and shivers is due to Nardil being inhibited rather than nerve issues. As that would be 100% reversible.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 30 (in total) (day 2 off vitamins)

Mood I believe is getting better being off vitamin B6, have actually stopped all vitamins at the moment since I'm a bit freaked by them, but I'm eating healthily.

Shivers surprisingly feeling much better! Weird because last time I took a 3 day break they didn't improve much. Maybe it's because I've been drinking like 8-10 cups of water a day this time. 

I strangely have some mild nausea which may because Nardil might be starting to work more? The only thing that is confusing to me atm is whether medically I'm on day 2 of Nardil (since it was probably being inhibited largely) or whether I'm on really day 30. 

If I AM on day 30 in actuality then this may feel like a great rebound. **** B6 in large doses 

EDIT: Not sure if it's Nardil working now and all that GABA reaching me now but I slept quite a lot today. 3AM until 7 am, 10 am - 3 pm. Still really sleepy right now. My shivers got really bad when all the fatigue hit me at 10 am

EDIT2: Shivers better at night, but I'm getting hit with some very nardil like side effects. One is nausea which usually happens when I start nardil. And the second is stomach in knots which is usually like day 20. So I'm not sure if it's like mixing all the side effects that I was missing together, but that's what it kinda feels like. Hopefully within a week things really spring up

---------

Day 31

Only got 3 hours of sleep last night since I got so much sleep during the day :/ Still some very mild nausea (I think one more day and it will be fine). My stomach does feel super weird though, just like before Nardil would begin working. Wish my mood would keep going up a bit more. It's improved since stopping B6 but the gains are small. Also my shivers continue to go back and forth throughout the day. Tomorrow seeing my GP


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Came across this today:



> *Effects of sertraline and citalopram given repeatedly on the responsiveness of 5-HT receptor subpopulations.*
> 
> Maj J, Moryl E.
> *Source*
> ...


Notice the bold. It seems increased serotonin at 5-ht1b cause hypothermia like effects.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

hypothermia is low body temp right? My hands and feet/body temp are warm. I just get shivers/chills for no reason. It's either B6 doing it, or nardil withdrawal from B6 inhibiting it. Very small chance it's a niacin deficiency.

Either way, Friday will tell!


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> hypothermia is low body temp right? My hands and feet/body temp are warm. I just get shivers/chills for no reason. It's either B6 doing it, or nardil withdrawal from B6 inhibiting it. Very small chance it's a niacin deficiency.
> 
> Either way, Friday will tell!


look at mild symptoms. Shivering being one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia#Signs_and_symptoms


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> look at mild symptoms. Shivering being one of them.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia#Signs_and_symptoms


97.8 degrees farenheit though. Can't be mild hypothermia. It was definitely that with Parnate, but this feels like serotonin withdrawal or some nerve issue with B6.

I think it's the B6 though because I went on and off 100 mg a couple of times. But the time I restarted again on Nov 8th, I ended up getting these non stop chills on the 18th of november. So it will probably take 2 weeks for it to go away. Unless my test comes back and it's ridiculously high, in that case it may take much longer because of nerve irritation. Hopefully this is NOT nerve irritation that is severe. It can't be nerve damage that's impossible at 100 mg for 1.5 months.

but...

Nerve Irritation

Vitamin B-6 is needed for maintaining healthy nerves and muscle cells, and aids in the production of DNA and RNA. Too much synthetic pyridoxine, however, can irritate nerves and create symptoms. The most commonly irritated nerves from pyridoxine toxicity are the smaller peripheral nerves of the hands and feet, which produce numbness in a "stocking-glove" distribution, according to the Merck Manual website. Although numbness is common, the nerve irritation does not usually affect the senses of touch, temperature or pain. Motor coordination and walking ability often remain intact, although muscle spasms or cramps may be experienced. Discontinuing pyridoxine supplementation usually reverses these symptoms within a few weeks.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

If I took Niacin for chills/shivers would that affect ANYTHING else? like B6 or B12??

Niacin is a possibility but I don't want to mess anything up since I'm 3 days without vitamins. But my chills/shivers are super severe right now (5 shirts on, 2 pairs of pants) internal body temp is still fine.

Also there seems to be no lab test for niacin... wtf.
Is there a test for tryptophan?


----------



## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

Have you gotten a pdoc yet gilmourr? Just curious because have you if you have one talked to him or her about the shivers? I'd be interested in what he thinks about it because this has been going on for quite some time.

By the way if you try niacin you can get the flush kind which will give you a sensation of an increased body temperature and will definitely tackle those shivers down and get rid of them. My brother got a bit obsessed with vitamins one time and he accidentally got the flush kind of niacin. He literally took a bag of ice cubes into the bath and was in there for about an hour. So make sure you get the non flush kind if you do or else, lets just say you will not need to be wearing 5 shirts and a couple pants.

So if your really desperate to get rid of the shivers you could try the flush kind ... once lol. That how long my brother used it for. Hahaha.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Ben12 said:


> Have you gotten a pdoc yet gilmourr? Just curious because have you if you have one talked to him or her about the shivers? I'd be interested in what he thinks about it because this has been going on for quite some time.
> 
> By the way if you try niacin you can get the flush kind which will give you a sensation of an increased body temperature and will definitely tackle those shivers down and get rid of them. My brother got a bit obsessed with vitamins one time and he accidentally got the flush kind of niacin. He literally took a bag of ice cubes into the bath and was in there for about an hour. So make sure you get the non flush kind if you do or else, lets just say you will not need to be wearing 5 shirts and a couple pants.
> 
> So if your really desperate to get rid of the shivers you could try the flush kind ... once lol. That how long my brother used it for. Hahaha.


I've seen a few doctors but thats for rTMS, which is a magnetic brain stimulation thing.

My new psych will be on Jan 12th, ridiculous how long that wait was eh?

Not really interested in getting a flush, I just want to be normal body temp. If I get a huge flush that isn't the fix. Niacin can be the fix though if I'm mildly deficient. I really have no clue what it is because I still haven't got back my B6 test. It's either Friday or Monday. Regardless I'm seeing my GP tmmr again so he can run a CBC, thyamine, folate and B12. This is ridiculous.

BTW I know it sounds long, but for 40 days I was cold because of vasoconstriction. For the last 30 days I don't have cold hands/feet from vasoconstriction it's just shivers that make me feel cold. But yeah, in total I've kinda been freezing for 70 days straight. I really am starting to feel like I'm losing steam in this whole thing. I was so close last time on 45 mg of Nardil, since I went to 60 mg and problems started and restarted and got this shiver bull**** everything is depressing.

My mood is not where I want it to be, neither is my anxiety. Just feel so unhappy, tired all the time, cold, unmotivated and completely lost even when it comes to libido now just because I've felt like ****ing **** for so long.

I hate B6, I hate depression, I really hate my agoraphobic weirdness and my nausea that comes with it at times. I really wish this was easier.

What I hate the most is that there is NO DOCTOR FOR THIS DISORDER. Cancer patients have oncologists, heart patients have cardiologists, we have ****ING PSYCHIATRISTS. They don't do their ****ING WORK at all, they just prescribe drugs and think that's good enough. WE NEED ****ING SUBSTANTIAL INFORMATION, not a god damn signature. Lazy *******s. ****ing fire them all and get a ****ing vending machine to replace them. I'd rather there be a vending machine and therapists. Because for me, psychiatrists have added NO VALUE. They are supposed to be the ones that actually have a strategy, some kind of direction to prescribing -- Not just, so hmmm you had suicidal thoughts on cymbalta eh..? You want to try cymbalta AND zoloft? I think that would work!


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 33 

Obviously something interacted with Nardil because this is the day when it made me feel freaking awesome last time.

This morning had a few mild shivers. But atm I've had 3 hours no shivers.

My mood feels even worse than it did yesterday. Not sure if the shivers first go away, and then my mood comes back? All I know is I can't even sleep anymore (taking seroquel and klonopin) because I feel so depressed. Can't think either. My anxiety also doesn't feel good either. I guess I'll just read for the time being. Taking 1000 IU of vitamin D for the last 3 days and that's it.

Going to get a test today for CBC, thyamine, folic, B12 and see if I can do anything for niacin. Also might grab a script for imipramine because I think I've only got 1 or 2 more weeks of this nonsense in me. Nardil may work again another time, but taking the vitamins and Nardil seemed to screw something up, and I've always found it's better to just restart than try to fix it. Though I wouldn't go back to Nardil right away, it's just been too much of a *****.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 5 (Being off vitamins. I think I'm disregarding the 33 days I was using B6 because Nardil wasn't working so it must not be right to include them in my day count).

Right now I have nausea while taking nothing, which SEEMS that since I'm off the vitamins that Nardil may be starting because originally I had nausea for 7-10 days at the beginning, then the next side effect was an incredibly scrunched stomach. Also I think it's starting because of the fatigue, low blood pressure that has just started etc.

My mood today is actually the best it's been since I came off the vitamins. 

The shivers are still occuring, but I think it may take between 9-12 days to reverse because looking at my old posts I was fine with no shivers and then they came a week and a bit later and didn't stop.

--------------------------

Day 6, tired. Only got 4 hours randomly last night. I'm pretty fatigued during the day. My mood is pretty decent but I still have little motivation I think because I'm A) too tired and B) still shivering 

I really hope this goes away soon, I'm tired of it. Tmmr will be 7 days since my blood test so HOPEFULLY it's in. I just want to know my B6 is high so that I can chill out and just wait for my levels to go back down and then wait for the shivering to stop and Nardil to kick in hard.

I just keep missing more and more stuff. Sucks when my drugs aren't working well. If my levels come back normal, I'm going to be ****ing shocked because I'm 90% sure these shivvers are because Nardil isn't working well/serotonin/drug withdrawal because of it. 

I'm tired of repeating myself daily, but I need to record this


----------



## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've read in previous posts that serotonin is the neurotransmitter that can help warm up the body? To put it simply that is.

I can't help but think that this is a bit inaccurate because Nardil increases serotonin. Would it maybe make more sense if the shivers are caused by a different mechanism of action from the Nardil?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Ben12 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I've read in previous posts that serotonin is the neurotransmitter that can help warm up the body? To put it simply that is.
> 
> I can't help but think that this is a bit inaccurate because Nardil increases serotonin. Would it maybe make more sense if the shivers are caused by a different mechanism of action from the Nardil?


No, because Nardil ISN'T working. The theory as to why it's not working is because my B6 levels are too HIGH or too LOW.

If they're too low, serotonin is not synthesized enough (leaving serotonin, but less, thus withdrawal, thus withdrawal shivers, because that's what they feel like). This is LESS likely because I was taking 100-125 mg B6/day

If they're too HIGH, Nardil stops working because B6 destroys nardil in higher doses. There are reports and claims from many who have been on Nardil. If levels come back high, Nardil was being inhibited by the B6 thus less serotonin...withdrawal...withdrawal shivers.

My hands/feet are NOT cold which is why I know I'm getting a decent amount of serotonin. Also, when I started Nardil this time, I had no shivers until day 14 I believe which was 7 days after starting the B6 vitamins. I remained on the vitamins until about the December 2nd if you count anything higher than 40 mg of B6 doses. Which means it could take 1-2-3 weeks to reverse. B6 is water soluble but it is NOT EXCRETED QUICKLY IN HIGH DOSES. It binds to tissue somehow.

And I KNOW nardil isn't working because of my greater than normal depression, anxiety, nausea from anxiety, agoraphobia, etc etc.

Or maybe it just doesn't work anymore, but I seriously doubt that. I think I just screwed it up using B12/B6 for a month in high doses.

- Also makes sense why I didn't get side effects over the last 30 days like hypotension or constipation, or fatigue, or some sexual inhibition (ejac) wise.

It's weird, but the shivers feel EXACTLY like withdrawal. They happened when I went off Nardil at 0 mg.

EDIT: ALSO, I've read NOWHERE that a side effect from nardil is shivers. People said cold intolerance, but I'm not cold, my body is warm, I get shivers with blankets wrapped around me. They're just withdrawal shakes I'm sure of it.


----------



## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

Is it shaking sort of shivers or is there a coldness component to it as well?

I know this might sound off putting but the reason why I question whether it even has anything to do with serotonin is because my brother was prescribed methylphenidate recently. As you know it's a dopamine and norepinephrine re uptake inhibitor. Anyways he's been doing really well on it. Not as impulsive and seems to be making better decisions and can concentrate on his work better. Anyways he gave me 6 10mg tablets and I was taking 2 twice a day. I really noticed a warm sort of feeling. I didn't mind the cold winter outdoors as much. In fact I was wearing a lighter jacket as well because a winter jacket was too much. Otherwise I'd start sweating. And damn does this medication ever help with my mood and my concentration. It makes me think that Wellbutrin was all just a placebo when I was on it. 

Anyways my point is that maybe something stimulating would help with the shivers. Maybe I don't know. I'm just basing this off of my experience though. Also I don't know how safe it is to use stimulants with Nardil.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

I'm not sure what happened in that situation but serotonin does increase body temperature while norepinephrine usually increases vasoconstriction where less blood reaches the surface thus having cold hands, feet, etc.

My hands and feet aren't cold (it's not a vasoconstriction thing like when I was on 60 mg). I feel cold and I shiver but my body parts are not cold, they're warm. It's gotta be neurological (withdrawal of sert). It should be a serotonin issue because Nardil primarily works because of it's effect on serotonin and GABA paths. And I haven't felt the effect of either of those from using loads of B6, or maybe it just doesn't work anymore. But like I said, I'm pretty sure it's B6, just have no idea how long it will take. It depends on what my levels are at. And I haven't seen them yet.

Maybe someone can offer a reason why you felt hot with a stimulant. But all norepinephrine based products I've been on have made me cold. 

Cymbalta, parnate, Nardil (60mg +)

Not effexor though since it's more serotonergic.

EDIT: NE increases energy, so it's POSSIBLE you felt more energetic and with it, therefore your body temp was better. Think about when you have energy, you're usually warm. I don't believe NE ALWAYS causes vasoconstriction and coldness because some people have LOW blood pressures off meds, so a bit higher BP might push them to 120/80 or 130/90 which is still fine. Mine is usually 130/90 or 140/95 without meds, so I'm more sensitive to stimulants which is probably why I get cold easily using NE.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Norepinephrine stimulates thyrotropin releasing hormone and thyroid stimulating hormone leading to increases in T4 and T3. It produces heat. Vasoconstriction will also conserve heat, while vasodilation may feel like you're warmer but that's because heat is escaping your body from your skin.

Anyways all signs point to serotonin binding to 5-ht1b and causing shivers and all the symptoms you mention. This does not affect body temperature, simply gives you those symptoms.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> Norepinephrine stimulates thyrotropin releasing hormone and thyroid stimulating hormone leading to increases in T4 and T3. It produces heat. Vasoconstriction will also conserve heat, while vasodilation may feel like you're warmer but that's because heat is escaping your body from your skin.
> 
> Anyways all signs point to serotonin binding to 5-ht1b and causing shivers and all the symptoms you mention. This does not affect body temperature, simply gives you those symptoms.


I don't see why Nardil would bind to that receptor after using it two times before never has (or never has caused this side effect). Plus wouldn't it downregulate by now? Can you expand on how all signs point to that? On Wiki it doesn't even say anything about shivers, just vasoconstriction, and my BP is 120/80 atm


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

BP doesn't matter. I posted a study that says agonists (such as serotonin) that bind to 5-ht1b may cause mild hypothermia symptoms, not actually cause temperature drops. You are not breaking down serotonin with MAO, so there is going to be more. Anyways, you're too obsessed with the whole b6 stuff. You'd think you would get it under wraps by now if it were that easy. Did your tests come back yet? From what I have read if Nardil doesn't work within 6 weeks it's less likely to work thereafter. I was reading how yes it can cause vitamin b6 plasma levels to drop but those same people still get results from Nardil. Anyways you're choice obviously just think you should get the tests done for b vitamins. And even if it turns out you are low, I mean you haven't had any luck with taking them thus far.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> BP doesn't matter. I posted a study that says agonists (such as serotonin) that bind to 5-ht1b may cause mild hypothermia symptoms, not actually cause temperature drops. You are not breaking down serotonin with MAO, so there is going to be more. Anyways, you're too obsessed with the whole b6 stuff. You'd think you would get it under wraps by now if it were that easy. Did your tests come back yet? From what I have read if Nardil doesn't work within 6 weeks it's less likely to work thereafter. I was reading how yes it can cause vitamin b6 plasma levels to drop but those same people still get results from Nardil. Anyways you're choice obviously just think you should get the tests done for b vitamins. And even if it turns out you are low, I mean you haven't had any luck with taking them thus far.


Yeah, I assumed a MAOI is unselective and it chooses any SERT receptors to bind to. However, I think there is a probability where it binds to certain ones more than others, and usually it follows the same path as a previous time.

I'm obsessed with the B6 stuff because it makes more sense to me given that I had no chills, then 9-12 days after I started taking it, I started getting them and they didn't stop. I've been off vitamins for 6 days after taking them for almost a month so I'm guessing it needs more time.

I'm also not stuck on the idea that my levels have dropped but that they're actually high (from taking 100-125 mg/daily of B6). High B6 makes Nardil semi useless or at least dysfunctional. Before I thought only low levels renders Nardil semi useless, but high levels do too. It's actually MUCH more likely for Nardil not to be working if B6 is high. My B6 test was done 9 days ago, so it has to be done soon, either tomorrow or tuesday I'll know my levels. So at least I can then decide to wait or go off of it.

The idea is when they come back high that I just wait for my levels to go back to normal by doing nothing and Nardil will begin to work again.

Also Nardil isn't completely not working because I'm not majorly depressed, I'm just moderately, though my anxiety is nothing like it was before. So it's doing something definitely, just Nardil is a beast when it works well.

I just have no idea how long it takes for B6 to excrete. It's water soluble and I understand you urinate out the vitamin, though it builds up and binds to tissue as I've read, so it doesn't reverse in a day. I'm guessing 9-12 days just like how it began. I'm just unable to concentrate on anything else other than this because it sucks to shiver uncontrollably.

I believe first the shivers will need to go away, then Nardil will begin to work. How fast it will work I'm not sure, but I doubt it will just SNAP me back, it'll probably follow the path it should've.

Also the previous two times I've taken Naridl I've never used B6 everyday. The first time I never used it, and the second time I used it like 5 times out of 49 days.


----------



## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

Have you considered the possibility that the Nardil could be why your getting the "shivers"?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Yeah, I posted about it earlier. It's not likely because it's not a recorded side effect and nobody has ever had it, and I've looked at a LOT of forums. Really. Nobody has ever had this with nardil.


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> Yeah, I assumed a MAOI is unselective and it chooses any SERT receptors to bind to. However, I think there is a probability where it binds to certain ones more than others, and usually it follows the same path as a previous time.
> 
> .


It doesn't bind to SERT receptors, well none that are ever mentioned in documents. it's simply there to bind to MAO and inhibit it.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

viper1431 said:


> It doesn't bind to SERT receptors, well none that are ever mentioned in documents. it's simply there to bind to MAO and inhibit it.


I think he meant it's possible that MAO is inhibited in brain regions where there is a lot of a specific receptor and as such the more serotonin available can bind to these receptors. But who knows. I don't think it's very selective as abilify but it could be different in each individual.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

****ty lab is super slow with getting my stuff back to me. I guess I'll wait until tomorrow to check again. 

Shivers are still going, I get pretty tired after dosing my 45 mg of Nardil, maybe that's a good sign that I'm feeling sedated by it, because I wasn't before, or at least it wasn't everyday. Also I think the Nardil is causing the startup nausea because when I go out I feel like gagging at times. 

I can't believe the half life is 15 days for B6. If I have to wait like 45 days that's bull****. 3 half lives usually leaves me feeling like there's no drug in my body (guessing because that's what, 87.5% cleared?)

Then again, that's if it was at a stable, level concentration. Given that I was on 100 mg half the time, and 50 mg half the time and only 20-30 days it couldn't have gotten my B6 levels too high.

After reading journals about hydrazine and B6, they say you don't need to go past 10 mg, max, when you supplement.

EDIT: I swear at night my shivers are going like twice as hard. This ****ing **** is making me crazy.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

I think I've got 5-7 more days of this bull**** in me. Then I'm jumping off Nardil and moving to imipramine. **** this ****. I'll go back to Nardil when it's actually able to function properly.

4 shirts, 2 pairs of pants and a wool blanket. God damn chemicals and their ability to make you feel like ****. I guess skipping halloween events to restart Nardil so I'd be "good" by christmas worked on well. **** vitamins.


----------



## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

How long do you have to wait between taking the nardil and the imipramine?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 8 - Called up the lab again and even though it's 7-10 days on their website, they say it can take up to TWO WEEKS. GET THE **** OUT.

HOW CAN IT TAKE 2 WEEKS TO ANALYZE BLOOD.

Seriously, **** this. If I'm paying for the god damn test it should at least be as quickly as OHIP covered tests. There's no way the process takes 2 weeks. They probably ship the blood using some low ****ing cost/slow shipping.

I think I'm off to go get some tryptophan supplements, ****, I'd rather have a chance of being warm even if it kills me, I've been ****ing cold for almost 60 days now (between vasoconstriction and withdrawal/random shivers)


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

I went to the emergency room once and they had full blood work done for me within 5 hours. Though I had to wait 5 hours 

Guess you're on a long list of others who want to and are in the queue.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Well I could've got my CBC back in a day, but my doctor requisitioned it with the B vitamins so they don't ship the results individually, they wait till the last one is done, WHICH IS STUPID.

I seriously can't survive 9 more days. If I go to the ER would there be anything they can do for me? IV drip or something? Like ****, this is awful. I'm ready to punch walls. If anything it seems worse each day.

I really don't want to go to the ER though because I was there 1 month ago for the amlodipine ****ing me up


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hmm then wait or just get off the Nardil and try something else. Do you really want to be on a drug that makes you follow stringent vitamin loading rules and when you cross them you all of a sudden feel like crap?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Well when it returns to normal I'm not supplementing anymore, I'll just do quarterly B6 checks.

I understand what you mean, but it's just that Nardil works when it's not being ****ed with. I'm pissed with the whole situation but I still can't believe how level I felt all the time on 45 mg last time.

I really want that back. I'm just having so much trouble getting through this shiver/chills bull****.

I just dosed my 45 mg nardil and now I'm getting sleepy and my shivvers are dying down, which has happened for the last few days, it just doesn't seem to last that long. Probably cause of the B6.

Maybe I'll redownload starcraft 2 to keep my mind off this as much as I can.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Haha

I have starcraft 2 but I really really really suck at it. I also didn't finish the campaign. It just didn't appeal to me like when starcraft initially came. Warcraft 3 was freaking awesome though. Weird.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Since stopping the vitamins and using Nardil I have now had an entire week of after dosing of fatigue/sleepiness, is this a good sign that maybe it's starting to work? 

Looking for any good signs. I honestly don't even think my mood would be horrible if I didn't have these shivers. So maybe without the shivers and with it affecting me a little better I'll get that kick again.

Can anyone suggest to me how long they think it would take if I took B6 (50-100mg) for 20-30 days and the half life of B6 is 15-25 days?


----------



## viper1431 (Jun 6, 2012)

Shouldn't take long should it if nardil does in fact destroy b6.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

It destroys B6 in the serum I believe but not in the tissue or muscle or whatever which is the reason behind the whole 15-25 day half life. 

I'm just trying to figure out how much would be in my tissue or being processed through my liver.

Would taking 50-100 mg for 20-30 days get my levels up to 100% therefore requiring 4-5 half lives to excrete it? Or would it only be at like 50-60%?

I'm thinking the half life only affects the exit because B6 gets in you pretty quickly. I'm concerned that this may take 45-60-80 days. And there's no way to speed up a half life. Just sucks so much. My levels are going to come back and they'll be ****ing high and I'm going to have to wait 2 months  FML

Even if the shivers go away I still need to wait for Nardil to kick in for anxiety because I'm super nauseous again from panic.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 9 no vitamins.

Woke up, right now I have no shivers, we'll see if I can go a few hours. I don't fully understand why I never have shivers right when I wake up, but I'm banking on each day they start later in the day (and require less clothing to not shiver).

Side effects

- Nausea
- Some mild urinary retention (don't really get this as I never get this on 45 mg)
- I have energy this morning but for some reason my mood feels a bit low.

Day betta be better


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

gilmourr said:


> Day 9 no vitamins.
> 
> Woke up, right now I have no shivers, we'll see if I can go a few hours. I don't fully understand why I never have shivers right when I wake up, but I'm banking on each day they start later in the day (and require less clothing to not shiver).
> 
> ...


Because you were fasting, no food, possibly no tyramine or L-dopa, l-tryptophan in system. Try eating nothing but carbs all day see what happens. When you sleep you simply use glycogen which is a sugar.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Sorry, mind explaining why carbs would help other that they convert to sugars?

Why would sugars help me? Or do you mean sugars just give me energy and leave me feeling kind of low mood wise?

Also, it's been 4 hours since I woke up and my shivers are still essentially diminished by 70-80%, I haven't dosed Nardil yet, I also haven't had any coffee. I'm kind of scared to do anything to make the shivers increase lol. I'm guessing Nardil wouldn't since it's always in my system. Though it does make me tired shortly after and I need to get some work done today.


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't know why. You said you wake up feeling normal. The only thing I can account for is you fast during the night. You don't get any food but sugar energy. So by eating carbs you avoid a lot of food interactions


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

kehcorpz said:


> I don't know why. You said you wake up feeling normal. The only thing I can account for is you fast during the night. You don't get any food but sugar energy. So by eating carbs you avoid a lot of food interactions


Lol, I'll just starve myself then, sounds better. Well I made it 5 hours, now the shivvers are going hard again. Took nardil right after they started. Only thing I had prior was 1 coffee and a bowl of rice krispies.

Maybe no coffee from now on? But I can't really see why that'd make me shiver. It might make my body cold, but it isn't


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

Try replacing coffee with green tea. That's what I've been doing lately. I love coffee. I was off it for a month but recently came back to it. Today I'm trying to once again quit. I am mainly doing it cuz I have really white teeth and don't want to ruin that as I age.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Yeah  tried it, wasn't that great  but I could replace it if I wanted. I don't think coffee is making me cold though, I just think it's this dumb medicine not working.

Yet again, "No sir, your test isn't ready" 

If it's not ready tomorrow which is the LAST day (10 days max) I'm gonna shout at them. Seriously, no way does it take 10 days to complete a B6 test. I want this ****ing test back, I'm missing partying and going out and **** and christmas stuff because of this bull****. Can't even work on my projects.

I'm going to sleep, even though I'm not tired, blah, at least I won't be cold.

EDIT: Nardil fatigue starting to set in at 4 pm today, much better than last few days where it used to make me tired almost right after dosing.

EDIT: Zomg. Only 5 hours of shivers today out of 14 hours. I think maybe this is the beginning of the end of horrible B6 bull**** . Lets see if I can go the rest of the night without shivering. Then once I go a whole day I can officially write down the start of nardil kick in time. NARDIL WILL ***** YOU UP WHEN YOU'RE GONE PYRIDOXINE


----------



## riptide991 (Feb 1, 2012)

heh check this:



> *Coffee consumption and circulating B-vitamins in healthy middle-aged men and women.*
> 
> Ulvik A, Vollset SE, Hoff G, Ueland PM.
> *Source*
> ...


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Well not sure, but I drank 2 cups today and had this soup with like lamb and veggetables and a **** load of stuff and my shivers are ****ing gone, I FEEL SO ****ING GOOD RIGHT NOW

omfg. PLZ JUST A FEW HOURS OF THIS

I THINK WHEN IM NOT SHIVERING NARDIL ****ING GETS IN ME AND IT'S AWESOME. HAHAHA

Lol, they'll probably come back in a few hours then I'll be pissed, but until then, IM GOING THE **** OUTTTTTTTTT

DIE B6 DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

EDIT: Apparently the stuff in the soup is called miso paste.

EDIT: Chills then came back strong 2 hours later. Worst, but my mood is feeling pretty stable these days. Just need the chills to go away. Either malnourished (unlikely) or B6. Lab said 10-14 days, tmmr is day 11, maybe I'll know by then haha. Shtupid.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

I think Nardil keeps on flooding into my system because I'm starting to get more side effects like mild urinary retention (very mild), fatigue (quite moderate throughout the day, can't stay awake the whole day), waking up early (4 am, today was 3 am!).

I think the side effects are just a bit amplified since I've been on it for like 35 days and getting off the B6 is releasing everything back in.

My mood has felt I think the best it's been since starting Nardil this 3rd time, so yay.

Still have some random points of nausea (probably from Nardil and it increasing my anxiety at first). Shivers I would say are now down by about 40%, maybe 50% since 11 days ago. The shivers will be gone before I get my test back, ****ing idiot lab haha.

Called them and was like get the **** out, it's still pending? TURNAROUND SAYS MAX 10 DAYS. Anyways w/e because my mood keeps getting better, and I'm sure everything will start coming together over the next 4-5 weeks.

I expect the shivers to be gone in maybe 7-10 days since the half life is really slow with B6. 

CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NARDIL PARTY. Going to continue drinking a lot of water and will start working out now that my motivation has gone up like a tonne in the past week.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Day 12, shivering = smaller durations, less extreme but it seems like they're more frequent, especially when I'm tired. Also pretty much wearing normal clothing too now, no 2 pairs of pants or 5 shirts. So I figure it is getting better. 
I thought it'd be 100% by day 12, but now it's looking like possibly 100% by day 20,25 or 30. The half life is slow, but hopefully Nardil rids the B6 quicker by getting back into my system 

Less nausea, getting some Nardil flatulence now, anxiety is beginning to go down slightly. Still fatiguing out by 1 pm though I think that's also getting better.

I'm gonna get there Mr.T, you just wait


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Shivers are 70-80% gone. Nardil is kicking in again, still having fatigue/tiredness, on and off nausea and some urinary issues.

The fatigue/nausea should go away in 2 weeks, though sometimes it takes 30 days to.

I really don't know if the urinary retention will go away, but it's much more mild than 60 mg, so it's doable, it's just kind of a pain at times. Takes like a 30 seconds for me to start pissing.

Weekend was solid (though I needed 1-1.5 mg klonopin for all 3 days because of the nausea, I hate using klonopin frequently like that, so good thing I will not be using it for a week or so. Don't want any benzo issues).


----------



## Ben12 (Jul 8, 2009)

What do you not like about the klonopin?


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Ben12 said:


> What do you not like about the klonopin?


benzo dependency, messing with my chemistry, giving me side effects that may last long term. I don't really understand protracted withdrawal that well and how frequently you have to use it. All I know is the stuff isn't good for you and that I'd rather just use AD's.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

15 days (no vitamins)

Shivers/brain chills randomly were going hard in the night and this morning.
Maybe alcohol this past weekend aggravated it or something? Because all weekend I seemed like there was major improvement.

Guess I'll keep at drinking water to keep hydrated/clear my system. Half life is 15-25 days for B6 so I guess all I can do is keep waiting. Sure is annoying though to feel much better and then have random shivers.

It's also weird but at 45 mg I'm getting some 60 mg symptoms like moderate urinary retention and my sleep is at 4-5 hours/night when it should be 6-7.
Hopefully stopping B6 doesn't like flood me with Nardil and cause 60 mg level of MAO inhibition. The real indicators would be vasoconstriction again (super cold hands/feet/blue and mood swings (don't have any).


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

K this is ****ed. My shivers are like returning with a vengeance.

All of yesterday they were going, and today it's been difficult. For the last two nights I've slept like 3 hours in total because of shivering and insomnia (insomnia that I never had when being on Nardil unless it was 60 mg-75 mg).

I don't get why after the shivers were getting better that they're starting up again. I've just been eating normally. The only thing that might have been different was that I took 1-1.5 mg of klonopin on fri-sat-sun. Does this mean the shivers are more related to GABA? 

My anxiety is also bothering me too, since monday it's been higher than usual.

This ****ing **** is pissing me off so much.


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

20 days being off the vitamins now. I honestly think there's like B6 withdrawal because for the last few days I've felt really tired, weak in the muscles, major insomnia and more.

Today went down to 15 mg of Nardil to see if a lower dose alleviates the shivers since I think hyperreflexia may be a cause. Going to go down to 15 mg I think for 3-4 days and then to 30 mg, just so the MAO can go down a bit quicker.


----------

