# How to REALLY get a date and Why it works



## cooldude03 (Jul 28, 2007)

Hey all, I used to be a bigtime loser or so I thought. I believed all the stuff the depressed guys say on here ... women only want aholes, it's so hard for guys to meet someone, etc. I've came through on the other side and I think I can explain some things that will help you. 

1. Women are just as desperate as men are. They are sitting around complaining about the lack of compatible men all the time. Remember most women won't ask a guy out, so they can only hope and pray that someone worthwhile approaches them.

2. You're looking in all the wrong places. Highly social women like cheerleaders and bar flys meet a lot of people, but what about church women, librarians, and so on. A lot of them are smart, loyal, and lonely. I think they are also likely to pick on more than just looks, so you really need to get your life together. I can assure you any large church will have several single ladies who'd like to meet a nice guy who doesn't live in mom's basement at 30.

3. If you're 30 and live in mom's basement, you really need to fix that right away. Do whatever it takes to get your life together: get a job, enroll in classes, start working on becoming a stable person. If you're being an ahole or a loser, I think you'll find most women worth talking to will NOT go for that and they will shut you down so fast you won't even have time to figure out what went wrong.

4. You will have to ask the woman out, she will not ask you (at least 99% of the time). It's always better to ask because there is always a chance. If you're in doubt, that means ask her out. No, you cannot tell by which way her legs are crossed or how many times she flips her hair. I had a woman act completely uninterested in me but I ended up going for it anyway and to my surprise she liked me. If she seems even remotely interested and you like her, ask her out. If she comes to your house or somewhere alone with you, then chances are she wants to kiss you. Again you will have to make the first move and you cannot trust your head because you have SA and will always assume she doesn't really like you. If you cannot get the gonads to do it, at least FB message her or join a dating site if you're really shy. You can always say you'd like to hang out with her but that's ambigious and id prefer to just get shot down right off the bat than drag out the tension and worrying lol

5. Remember not all women are worth your time and not everyone is going to say yes. Hearing no thanks is perfectly normal and happens to everyone. If she's rude about it, then you don't want to be with her anyway. you just found out she was a creep without wasting any time. I think shy guys and guys with SA tend to let people walk all over them anyway so you definitely don't need to be dating anyone too pushy or rude IMO.


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## alex999 (Oct 21, 2008)

You hit the nail on the head in every point. #3 really pertains to me. I think I'm attractive to most girls, and I'm an interesting person, but the thing they don't know about me is what my real life is really like. I need to straighten out my anxiety issues first, or else I would make my life more complicated than it should be if I went into a relationship now. Just put yourself in their shoes: Would you want to date someone with little to no social life, too anxious to even go to a restaurant or store, has low self esteem? I wouldn't. 

Until I straighten myself up and gain a better image of myself I will not have anywhere near a successful relationship. I've denied it, but it's sad but true.


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## orchdorch925 (Aug 26, 2010)

I think you got some good points. Just remember- not all girls are the same. Don't just assume every one of us likes jerks or buff dudes. I prefer nice guys who are sweethearts. It's all about finding a girl who likes you for you, which is difficult, but still. Just have confidence in yourself, which I know is easier said than done for someone on here, but that's really the key.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Thanks for this! And I completely agree with all of the points.


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## baseballdude (May 23, 2010)

Post of the year!!! Everyone on SAS needs to read this! Thank you. :clap


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## kiirby (Oct 8, 2010)

I don't wanna be blunt, but is this such a revelation? Almost all of this is common sense, plastered all over dating tip websites and the like. I appreciate that you've made an effort, but selling these as tips that are gonna help someone get over their SA is just giving false hope. Funnily enough, telling someone to 'get their life together' is infinitely easier said than done. If you really want some dating tips, research 'PUA'. It'll help you a lot more than this does.


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## cooldude03 (Jul 28, 2007)

Hi thanks for the comments everyone. Kirby, If PUA stuff has helped you then by all means continue. But I would caution others that some of the PUA advice is counter productive and will actually set one back (and of course some of it is very good, too). To me a lot of the PUA stuff just got in my way and although it helped a little at first, pretty soon it was just slowing me down. It also led me with some pretty nasty beliefs that took a while to get rid of but not before I managed to make a jerk of myself a time or two.

No, I guess I don't believe it is just common sense. Many people, especially those with SA, suffer from mistaken beliefs that keep then from getting a head. Getting dates and gfs is actually very simple but it requires a few consistent steps to get there. Learning to focus the energy in the right places might sound very simple, but over time it makes a huge difference. 

Later, I enrolled in social science courses and at first I kept questioning everything because I thought "pffft what do these bozos know about anything, they are probably a bunch of nerds". After a couple of years of courses I began to see some of it wasn't just BS. I took advanced (graduate) courses and things began to become clearer. I learned the meaning behind the theories in the books on a personal level and began to understand them as a practical application and not just some crap in a book. That is my frame of reference, a person trained in social science and a person who managed to go from being very lonely to having lots of friends, gfs, and so on. Notice also I am not selling anything, just giving advice that can be taken or left.. up to each person. Now, If I canjust gt rid of these darn panic attacks (health related) thatcome and go everyfew years!


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## dave twothree (Sep 26, 2010)

I'm physically unattractive though, I'm thin and pale. Being thin is genetic for me so I can't imagine any woman taking me seriously. I go to school and have a job and I have money, but my physical appearance and on top of that anxiety is a leading factor in me not meeting anyone.


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## cooldude03 (Jul 28, 2007)

Dave, I hear what your sayin and obviously women do notice looks, too! However, I am giving you a 100% honest story that I know a beautiful woman with a great daughter who has a degree in finance and a masters in another field that recently married a very short guy who looks like he would've died a virgin for sure! Apparently, at one point she even dated a guy in a wheelchair. You only need to succeed once with the right lady! I am telling you this lady was HIGHLY attractive, smart, and makes more than enough bread to take care of herself. To boot he didn't even have to ask her out and risk rejection in person, he found her on eharmony and 2 years later they were married.

Another thing you need to do is make sure you're maximizing what looks you do have. Take 2 or 3 different photos. Show them to women on Facebook or a messenger and ask them what kind of hair style would best suit you. When you think you have it down, try to find a photo of some guy with that hair style and confirm with the women that's what you need. Take the photo into a hair stylist and let them know you don't want to look like that guy per say but that's the hair style you want. 

Next, ask a female friend (or make one online) to go shopping with you. Women love to shop! Tell them you want them to go shopping and they can bring friends to help you spend $ too. Offer to buy lunch at the food court for their troubles. They will have you looking your best in no time. For the record, I have actually done all this so I know it's possible and I am not just talking out the wazoo here.


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## alex999 (Oct 21, 2008)

dave twothree said:


> I'm physically unattractive though, I'm thin and pale. Being thin is genetic for me so I can't imagine any woman taking me seriously. I go to school and have a job and I have money, but my physical appearance and on top of that anxiety is a leading factor in me not meeting anyone.


Work out, lift weights. I've been pretty thin all my life especially in high school, but with correct diet and weightlifting I've gained a good amount of mass. I feel better about myself and I always feel better mentally after working out. Being skinny isn't much of a crutch anyways, a lot of girls dig lankier looking guys.


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## rockguitarist89 (Sep 22, 2010)

alex999 said:


> Work out, lift weights. I've been pretty thin all my life especially in high school, but with correct diet and weightlifting I've gained a good amount of mass. I feel better about myself and I always feel better mentally after working out. Being skinny isn't much of a crutch anyways, a lot of girls dig lankier looking guys.


This. And also, if you are not worried about your liver, you can always juice or use pro hormones. Tons of guys do at my gym. Not saying its right or wrong, and I'm definitely not promoting it. All I'm saying is that if you work out for a long time and can't get bigger due to genetics, don't just not "use" because of what you've heard, do your research. If you were to do this, only do it as a last resort though. Even with sh*t genetics, you can usually gain some mass after eating and lifting right for a long time. Don't even consider it until after lifting at least a couple years imo.

I don't do any of that (yet), but I hear you on the small genetically part, which is why I'm saying this.


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## alex999 (Oct 21, 2008)

rockguitarist89 said:


> This. And also, if you are not worried about your liver, you can always juice or use pro hormones. Tons of guys do at my gym.


My brother went down that road (steroids, HGH) when he was in his 20's and is paying the price for it now in his 30's. His testosterone levels are depleted because the juice screwed up his endocrine system. He has to have hormone replacement therapy the rest of his life. He gets muscle injuries a lot easier now. I love lifting weights, but I would not go anywhere near that ****.


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## rockguitarist89 (Sep 22, 2010)

alex999 said:


> My brother went down that road (steroids, HGH) when he was in his 20's and is paying the price for it now in his 30's. His testosterone levels are depleted because the juice screwed up his endocrine system. He has to have hormone replacement therapy the rest of his life. He gets muscle injuries a lot easier now. I love lifting weights, but I would not go anywhere near that ****.


Did he do a proper PCT? After running a cycle, you have to run a test booster to keep gains, and use a SERM to block the estrogen while your body regains its natural testosterone.


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## cooldude03 (Jul 28, 2007)

Studies have shown most women prefer a man with a light build and a V shaped body. You certainly do not need to anything special to accomplish this beyond eating a proper diet and working out at reasonable levels. 

Personally, exercise is something I do for psychological and physiological health, not to impress ladies. I would never do it in a way that harmed my health, but only in ways that enhance my health. I am big advocate of cardio.

I can also see guys using this as a cop out. They will put off asking the girls out until they look like Charles Atlas. The solution is of course to face the fear now in a reasonable manner (with women you really want to meet and in the place you feel is a good place for you personally).

I also forgot to add dental care lol I've talked to women who had problems with guys who don't brush their teeth in the morning (bad breath) and who really need to see a dentist. I floss, brush teeth, and use a flouride rinse on the regular. Avoiding sodas and anything that will decalcify teeth is a good thing to the extent you can do so.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*hmm*

*Studies have shown most women prefer a man with a light build and a V shaped body.*

Since they haven't interviewed anywhere near "most women", no they haven't. Studies have shown and suggested things and that is it. But, like quite a lot of really bad horror films, you could drive a bus through the holes in quite a lot of those studies.

And plus, social science remains an interpretation of how "things work" rather than some sort of rule book.

But some good advice present here. I'm held back by being disgustingly ugly to women and it is a shame because everything else is working very well. I have a rich life, strong social circles, travel a lot, have even had a job which meant I got to meet actors, actresses, musicians and celebs. But being disgusting holds me back.

As for pick up stuff....erm...if you want to meet a bunch of people who have really, really, really low self esteem, then go to the pick up artists.


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## cooldude03 (Jul 28, 2007)

Hi Martin, You're certainly right that those studies did not examine anywhere near the total number of women in the world. In fact, no study ever has done such a thing yet we place our lives on the line taking medicines that passed clinical trials based on a sample of the population all the time. Most social science studies use college students because they are readily available. Is it possible this could lead to a biased outcome? Absolutely it is! However, it has been found that more often than not we get a pretty good reading of things. We also aim to triangulate data with using multiple methods (interviews, surveys, observation).

When multiple methods in different populations involving multiple researchers produce a similar result, then it begins to look like we are onto something. Attraction has been found to be fairly universal. By that I mean a person considered attractive in one society is likely to be found attractive by most (but certainly not all) members in a totally different society. It does vary a little, for example in different times slightly skinnier or curvier builds have been rated more attractive in women and in places facing epidemics heavy women have sometimes been desired (though it's hard to say if they are actually thought more attractive or simply safer, I've been unable to track down the specifics of those figures and believe they may have come from ethnographic research). The important thing to note is human attractiveness has been studied relentlessly and data has been triangulated all over the globe with various populations including people with little exposure to mass media in the jungles of South America.

I suppose that's not very comforting information if one believes his attractiveness is low. However, consider the following.


Increasing social self-esteem leads to more dating frequency.
Positive thinking is associated with increased dating frequency.
More attractive women in personal ads are more likely to request financial security from a man.
Women place considerably more value on interpersonal warmth than do males (.59 mean difference!!!)
 
Men place considerably more value on appearance (.29 mean difference)
Sounds to me like some of that (taken from various studies I found) might be to your advantage. But you don't have to take my word for it, ask women yourself or go to a University and look up any one of the numerous studies that have similar findings.

Now, you're skeptical of these studies' ecological validity due to sample size (which is thousands of people in dozens of countries), but you've chosen not to question your own ability to determine causation? By what objective standard did you determine that women won't date you because of your looks? What was YOUR sample size  Where I am going with this is even if your looks are not working to your advantage, it seems to me that there is an awful lot you can do to mitigate that unfortunate hand you've been dealt. It's also possible your looks are not as horrid as you believe. Often, we are our own worst critics.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

*hmm*

*Hi Martin, You're certainly right that those studies did not examine anywhere near the total number of women in the world. In fact, no study ever has done such a thing yet we place our lives on the line taking medicines that passed clinical trials based on a sample of the population all the time. *

In this context, we're talking about "attraction" and opinions on such a thing. Talking about the clinical trials of drugs is, in this instance, a false comparison. The effects of such treatments and drugs on the human system are much, much more measurable in scientific terms then the relative, subjective and fluid nature of attraction is. A detailed clinical drugs trial cannot be compared to the scientific equivalent of getting some teenage girls in a room and asking them whether they like Brad Pitt without his beard or Justin Beiber. One is measured results under lab tests. The other is simply grounded within relative, subjective, fluid opinion.

*Most social science studies use college students because they are readily available. Is it possible this could lead to a biased outcome? Absolutely it is! However, it has been found that more often than not we get a pretty good reading of things.*

Erm...with respect, no it has not. And "we get a pretty good reading of things more often that not" is not a very scientific way of phrasing things. It seems to rely on interpretations of and placing meaning onto certain results and certain data which is fine when talking about things which are more measurable and less fluid, relative and subjective than attraction is but attraction side steps those who search for a formula.

*We also aim to triangulate data with using multiple methods (interviews, surveys, observation).*

I have a social science qualification. Interviews, surveys and observations can suggest an awful lot but prove absolutely nothing.

*When multiple methods in different populations involving multiple researchers produce a similar result, then it begins to look like we are onto something. *

Multiple methods in different populations involving multiple researchers have found that people think hens lay golf balls. So, obviously, we're onto something and hens must lay golf balls. Doesn't matter whether you use multiple methods in different populations or if the researchers come back with similar sounding stuff...question...question.. question...

*Attraction has been found to be fairly universal. By that I mean a person considered attractive in one society is likely to be found attractive by most (but certainly not all) members in a totally different society.*

You're getting ahead of your own findings here. Some studies have suggest that some people in multiple cultures find particular aspects of the human body attractive. That does not make attraction universal and it certainly does not justify the wild, sweeping assumption that a person considered attractive in one society will be found attractive by most people in another society.

Unless the research did get as daft as asking a bunch of teenager girls who they fancied that day, getting the answer of Brad Pitt, making the ridiculous assumption that "all teenage girls like Brad Pitt" in this society, travelling to another society, making the same sweeping assumptions there, deciding that Brad Pitt was found attractive in both societies....only to come back and ask the teenage girls and only to get the answer: "oh, we don't like Brad anymore".

I'm being flippant to make a point and that point is studies suggesting things should not automatically, quickly and rashly become generalisations about the nature of attraction.

*It does vary a little, for example in different times slightly skinnier or curvier builds have been rated more attractive in women and in places facing epidemics heavy women have sometimes been desired (though it's hard to say if they are actually thought more attractive or simply safer, I've been unable to track down the specifics of those figures and believe they may have come from ethnographic research). *

The figures and research can show a lot. But prove nothing. People did a study, made a bunch of interpretations and guesses about what the data told them and then made a bunch of guesses about attraction. It doesn't vary a little. It varies a lot. Heavy women are desired all over the place.

*The important thing to note is human attractiveness has been studied relentlessly and data has been triangulated all over the globe with various populations including people with little exposure to mass media in the jungles of South America.*

Yes, studies and suggestions. Proof? Nope. If it were so easy to distil the essence of attraction and its very nature, one or two studies should have been enough. Why tread old ground? Because attraction eludes. Doesn't matter if they triangulated the data from Bognor Regis or Amsterdam or anywhere else. The essence has not been distilled and bottled. Human beings have a talent for seeing patterns when patterns do not exist.

*I suppose that's not very comforting information if one believes his attractiveness is low. However, consider the following.

Increasing social self-esteem leads to more dating frequency.*

Indeed, and I really do appreciate your efforts to make me feel better. And you've given me a lot to think about. Challenge, yes. But think about too. But is it really the case that an increase in social self esteem automatically leads to an increase in dating frequency? What is meant by the terms on offer here?

*Positive thinking is associated with increased dating frequency.*

Same concerns and questions as above.

*More attractive women in personal ads are more likely to request financial security from a man.*

And who, with all the agendas and ideas about beauty in this world, has defined who these so called "attractive" women are? Best to think on that before any guesswork about whether they are more likely to request financial security from a man or not.

*Women place considerably more value on interpersonal warmth than do males (.59 mean difference!!!)*

But do they? "Personal warmth" is a relative, subjective and fluid value. Were each of the women asked about this in whatever study it was asked to give their unique, individual definition of personal warmth. Were the men? Or were sweeping assumptions and interpretations made based on some data results?

*Men place considerably more value on appearance (.29 mean difference)
Sounds to me like some of that (taken from various studies I found) might be to your advantage. But you don't have to take my word for it, ask women yourself or go to a University and look up any one of the numerous studies that have similar findings.*

Indeed, thank you, it might be to my advantage. Interesting findings. Proof of nothing but interesting findings nonetheless. Men placing more value on appearance is a sweeping assumption but I have to acknowledge that I might be wrong about my criticisms of such research and its findings. After all, I do stand as a cheerleader for beholders everywhere so maybe my judgement (like that of the social scientist) is clouded by seeing patterns that may or may not be there, making assumptions and generalisations, guesswork etc.


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## Sindelle (Oct 22, 2010)

I think this advice is interesting, however, I am not sure it really applies to females.

I can get men to ask me out, just getting them to have a relationship with me is what the problem is. 
They SEEM nice when I am on a date with them and we have interesting conversations (except for one guy he was scary) , but they never call me back afterwards and usually I never heard from them again 

Men are a mystery.


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## cooldude03 (Jul 28, 2007)

Hello again Martin and Hello Sindelle,

Martin, Physical attractiveness of the participants is usually judged via intercoder reliability. Basically, you take a group of women and if all the male judges come up with very similar figures for their attractiveness, then we say we have intercoder reliability because they agree on what is attractive and unattractive. If the figures are random then we would have to say judges are not a reliable instrument for measuring physical attractiveness... but remember my first summation of literature is that perception of physical attractiveness is reasonably stable! I would urge you to find a University textbook on interpersonal communication and look up their sources for the specifics. You're a smart guy, you can definitely fix this, but I think you might have to take a leap of faith and trust that some of these principles will work for you over time. Certainly, Aristotle did not use an experimental design to determine his ideas Rhetoric yet we still use many of those ideas today.

Sindelle, 

You're correct that this was mostly aimed at guys seeking women. I should have used clearer language in my original title. However, I hope there is something of value in this discussion for women, as well. Certainly, female input is desperately needed on any thread regarding male-female relationships. I will make more effort to include material of particular interest to females.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

joinmartin said:


> *Studies have shown most women prefer a man with a light build and a V shaped body.*
> 
> Since they haven't interviewed anywhere near "most women", no they haven't. Studies have shown and suggested things and that is it. But, like quite a lot of really bad horror films, you could drive a bus through the holes in quite a lot of those studies.
> 
> ...


JM,

You don't quite sound like yourself. How quickly would you call out someone for saying the stuff I bolded? I'm not trying to embarrass you, but your letting an ugly part of yourself speak for all of you, don't you think?

You're also arguing against the idea that any of us are ugly or attractive or any other descriptor always and everywhere. Apply that thinking to your own thought process when you label yourself so thoroughly, permanently, and unkindly.


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## ChadsWick1234 (Oct 31, 2009)

cooldude03 said:


> Hey all, I used to be a bigtime loser or so I thought. I believed all the stuff the depressed guys say on here ... women only want aholes, it's so hard for guys to meet someone, etc. I've came through on the other side and I think I can explain some things that will help you.
> 
> 1. Women are just as desperate as men are. They are sitting around complaining about the lack of compatible men all the time. Remember most women won't ask a guy out, so they can only hope and pray that someone worthwhile approaches them.
> 
> ...


 Good post I went out on a date last night. One of the first things the girl said to me was your the first guy who hasn't brought up sex in a date. She even told me she had a guy propose to her on a first date. Atleast we were able to carry on a conversation.


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## lanzman (Jun 14, 2004)

It's not really the asking that's a problem for me. It's having no ability to carry on any kind of interesting conversation if I actually did have a date with someone. This prevents me from asking in the first place.


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## mountain5 (May 22, 2008)

I haven't been on this forum in over 10 months and I just wanted to say this is a good post!

I still have a problem with letting go from trying to read body language. It was drilled into me so many times from books, stuff I read on the internet, etc. to watch the way she crosses her arms and legs, watch the way her feet are pointing, watch for her flipping her hair, etc. But I can't think of any time where it ever did me any good. Either I read "positive" body language and it doesn't mean anything, or I see "negative" body language like crossed arms and legs and I lose confidence even though she's still interested. I just wish I had never heard that advice altogether.


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## cooldude03 (Jul 28, 2007)

Hello again everyone, Lanz, I used to feel the same way sometimes! What I found is that I just needed to open myself up to some new experiences, so I'd have more to talk about, more stories to tell, and so on. Take a vacation to somewhere unusual. Walk the Incan trail, stay in an ecolodge, ride elephants in Thailand, sit on ancient stones in the old world, visit the great wall, whatever it is you've often dreamed of doing, go do it! If you've never dreamed of doing anything then get national geographic or something. If you're short on cash, explore areas close to home. Join the Seirra Club, join a Spanish or Russian self-study club. Volunteer to help needy families in Appalachia . That will give you enough material to talk for hours lol. 

Mountain thanks for the compliment! We have a limited amount of working memory so whenever we devote too many cognitive resources to any preoccupation, we are unable to focus on the here and now--the person in front of us. I think it's best to imagine a smooth conversation a few times the night before the date. Body language often has more to do with what we *think* it means than what it actually means. If someone looks he's about to catapult out of his chair, that's a hint I'll take. If a girl's legs are pointed away from me, I've found this means absolutely nothing and is not worth considering lol It's definitely something that can be over thought and many of the books out there are junk. The complete idiot's guide (if I remember right) isn't bad for a quick summary. I think the basics are just to remember to smile, use a firm handshake, wear clean clothes, look people in the eye (don't talk to the ground), have good hygeine, and use an appropriate volume.


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## cold fission cure (Aug 31, 2010)

There used to be a show where a guy showed other guys how to pick up women. They call themselves PUMs (short for pick up masters). The key is the clothes. Make them as outlandish as possible. The lead guy wore a big furry top hat and leather pants so you'll probably want to start there. He wore a huge belt buckle that said something like "you're about to get laid". Women like this because it tells them ahead of time what's going to happen (surprises startle women). Also learn to ask women if they use dental floss after they brush they teeth. They asked that question a lot to women on the show and it seemed to work (they'd get the babe - prolly cause it implied to her he has good hygiene).


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## bobthebuilder (Jun 17, 2009)

cold fission cure said:


> There used to be a show where a guy showed other guys how to pick up women. They call themselves PUMs (short for pick up masters). The key is the clothes. Make them as outlandish as possible. The lead guy wore a big furry top hat and leather pants so you'll probably want to start there. He wore a huge belt buckle that said something like "you're about to get laid". Women like this because it tells them ahead of time what's going to happen (surprises startle women). Also learn to ask women if they use dental floss after they brush they teeth. They asked that question a lot to women on the show and it seemed to work (they'd get the babe - prolly cause it implied to her he has good hygiene).


I hope you are joking. They are called PUA (artist not master). The rest, is a huge misinterpretation of PUA theory (which many claim to be complete crap anyway).


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