# Agnostics and Death?



## Ung201 (Jan 19, 2017)

I was never really much of a God-fearing person. I suppose I was a tad bit back when I was little, but as I got older and more cynical, my sense of divine faith continued to dwindle and dwindle until it was no longer something I could rely on for guidance or comfort. While the latter isn't a problem for me -- I've been able to fine-tune my moral compass over the years through pursuing enlightenment, if that doesn't sound too self-righteous -- I do constantly find myself anxious over the idea of there being no afterlife. In other words, death scares the living crap out of me -- more specifically, eternal oblivion. The idea of having absolutely no sense of space, time, or self is so uncomprehending that it's terrifying. I doesn't help either that I currently hold the looming notion that I'm going to die young, soon even. (Nuclear war, environmental disaster, global pandemic, lifelong heart problems, etc.)

ar

Are there any other agnostics or atheists out there who share the same anxiety about death? I can't imagine that I'm the only one.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

A question, when you were more religious did that _really_ comfort you about death to any significant degree? Just curious about whether being religious actually does help in that respect.

Death is one of those things that (for me) I try not to think about. Intellectually I know it isn't something to fear, but emotively, its always going to be scary, cos that fear is pretty much hardwired into the genes


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## EBecca (Oct 15, 2016)

Stegosuarez said:


> I was never really much of a God-fearing person. I suppose I was a tad bit back when I was little, but as I got older and more cynical, my sense of divine faith continued to dwindle and dwindle until it was no longer something I could rely on for guidance or comfort. While the latter isn't a problem for me -- I've been able to fine-tune my moral compass over the years through pursuing enlightenment, if that doesn't sound too self-righteous -- I do constantly find myself anxious over the idea of there being no afterlife. In other words, death scares the living crap out of me -- more specifically, eternal oblivion. The idea of having absolutely no sense of space, time, or self is so uncomprehending that it's terrifying. I doesn't help either that I currently hold the looming notion that I'm going to die young, soon even. (Nuclear war, environmental disaster, global pandemic, lifelong heart problems, etc.)
> 
> ar
> 
> Are there any other agnostics or atheists out there who share the same anxiety about death? I can't imagine that I'm the only one.


Yes, sometimes I fear that everything's going to disappear after death, like it wouldn't even matter that I was alive once. Like I was never even born. The thought is so confusing. It makes me question the every moment I'm living right now.
I think, what scares me most about death though is that I'm going to leave this world behind some day. If I died, everybody, everything that's important to me, things I've never experienced yet, my dreams, everything would disappear for me. I don't even want to think what would happen with my family, every single person that care about me... it makes me cry. That's the scariest thing about leaving this world, in my opinion.


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## Ung201 (Jan 19, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> A question, when you were more religious did that _really_ comfort you about death to any significant degree? Just curious about whether being religious actually does help in that respect.
> 
> Death is one of those things that (for me) I try not to think about. Intellectually I know it isn't something to fear, but emotively, its always going to be scary, cos that fear is pretty much hardwired into the genes


It was Christianity's insistence of there being life beyond death that gave me comfort. Everything else about religion makes me uncomfortable. I'm not anti-religious by any means. We all have the right to believe what we want to believe. I just don't like having my values chosen for me is all, or having to handicap my experiences in life in the name of an ancient deity.

There's a good chance that I'm merely going through an existential crisis, as I'd said.


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## Ung201 (Jan 19, 2017)

EBecca said:


> Yes, sometimes I fear that everything's going to disappear after death, like it wouldn't even matter that I was alive once. Like I was never even born. The thought is so confusing. It makes me question the every moment I'm living right now.
> I think, what scares me most about death though is that I'm going to leave this world behind some day. If I died, everybody, everything that's important to me, things I've never experienced yet, my dreams, everything would disappear for me. I don't even want to think what would happen with my family, every single person that care about me... it makes me cry. That's the scariest thing about leaving this world, in my opinion.


It's for that reason that I find the contingency of human extinction so deeply disturbing. We are currently the only known species in the universe to wonder at a level beyond passive curiosity. We ask questions, find answers, have arguments, make agreements, decide what's wrong, decide what's right. Despite being so scientifically and philosophically inclined, I'm hopelessly romantic, so to me, a life without meaning is a life without happiness. If humans are the only creatures capable of assigning meaning in life independent of biological necessity, what will become of the universe once we're gone? What will life all have been for?


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## EBecca (Oct 15, 2016)

Stegosuarez said:


> It's for that reason that I find the contingency of human extinction so deeply disturbing. We are currently the only known species in the universe to wonder at a level beyond passive curiosity. We ask questions, find answers, have arguments, make agreements, decide what's wrong, decide what's right. Despite being so scientifically and philosophically inclined, I'm hopelessly romantic, so to me, a life without meaning is a life without happiness. If humans are the only creatures capable of assigning meaning in life independent of biological necessity, what will become of the universe once we're gone? What will life all have been for?


I agree. Our existence and the existence of our universe might depend on us. Not that we're the most important species in the world, but it's like, if we're not here, does it even matter that something exists without us? This world, as it's familiar to us, would be gone. Everything that makes us humans, basically all that matters to us would disappear. Maybe the universe is different than we perceive it. How we see it through human eyes is what we call "life". Science is human too, because it also depends on the way we see the world. Sometimes I feel like my life is infinite. I don't remember not being alive. Sometimes it feels like every new experience I have is just like a forgotten memory that reappears in my mind, like my life has no beginning and no end.


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## Ung201 (Jan 19, 2017)

EBecca said:


> I agree. Our existence and the existence of our universe might depend on us. Not that we're the most important species in the world, but it's like, if we're not here, does it even matter that something exists without us? This world, as it's familiar to us, would be gone. Everything that makes us humans, basically all that matters to us would disappear. Maybe the universe is different than we perceive it. How we see it through human eyes is what we call "life". Science is human too, because it also depends on the way we see the world. Sometimes I feel like my life is infinite. I don't remember not being alive. Sometimes it feels like every new experience I have is just like a forgotten memory that reappears in my mind, like my life has no beginning and no end.


_Cogito Egro Sum_

I think; therefore I am.

Life can be best described as the subjective experience of yourself relative to everything else in conceivable existence. Sometimes I wonder if I'll wake up one day on a slab of zinc with a bunch of wires stuck in me and realize that I'm actually a dog and that the Nazis had actually won WWII.

Yes, I do take pills.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Stegosuarez said:


> It was Christianity's insistence of there being life beyond death that gave me comfort.


Yeh, that's what I was interested in really, how _much_ comfort re death being religious actually manages to provide


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## EBecca (Oct 15, 2016)

Stegosuarez said:


> _Cogito Egro Sum_
> 
> I think; therefore I am.
> 
> ...


Interesting description. Wouldn't be surprised if that happened to me and I don't even use drugs :stu


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## Ung201 (Jan 19, 2017)

EBecca said:


> Interesting description. Wouldn't be surprised if that happened to me and I don't even use drugs :stu


You'll be surprised.


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

It's strange, i'm totally ok with death. I think I believe in reincarnation somehow (without meaning to) because as a child i always felt i'd lived other lives even though i was brought up in the christian tradition. I haven't believed in god for at least a decade. At least in any religious form (i'm one of those spiritual not religious, nature, peace and love hippies. If i ever think of a god it's usually Ganesha because he looks awesome, I love elephants and it makes me happy to think of him removing my obstacles.)

Somehow even the thought not existing doesn't bother me at all. I mean ice melts and becomes water. Human bodies decompose and become dirt. Our bodies are composed of atoms that used to be stars. All that seems very comforting and natural to me. We always exist just in different forms. Again I have no idea why that just feels so ok to me. I'm just putting it out there in case it's of any comfort to you.

The extent of my fear of death is leaving before I'm ready. It terrifies me to think of passing before i beat SA or do some of the things I want to do.


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## Ung201 (Jan 19, 2017)

realisticandhopeful said:


> It's strange, i'm totally ok with death. I think I believe in reincarnation somehow (without meaning to) because as a child i always felt i'd lived other lives even though i was brought up in the christian tradition. I haven't believed in god for at least a decade. At least in any religious form (i'm one of those spiritual not religious, nature, peace and love hippies. If i ever think of a god it's usually Ganesha because he looks awesome, I love elephants and it makes me happy to think of him removing my obstacles.)
> 
> Somehow even the thought not existing doesn't bother me at all. I mean ice melts and becomes water. Human bodies decompose and become dirt. Our bodies are composed of atoms that used to be stars. All that seems very comforting and natural to me. We always exist just in different forms. Again I have no idea why that just feels so ok to me. I'm just putting it out there in case it's of any comfort to you.
> 
> The extent of my fear of death is leaving before I'm ready. It terrifies me to think of passing before i beat SA or do some of the things I want to do.


That's a very good perspective to go by. I think that when I die, I'd like to have my ashes burned and buried with a seed so that a tree may grow someday.


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## vagues (Oct 18, 2015)

It's dying specifically I fear rather than death. Being thought of as a failure is an issue, but I think that is more a fear over living an unproductive life.


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## UKguy (Sep 30, 2013)

I think deep down most people have a fear of death even if they won't consciously acknowledge it. I think it is normal to be scared of the unknown... Atheists can quite rationally think that death must be like being asleep or what it was like before they were ever born, but there is not 100% certainty there... it is that 'what if' that raises anxiety about death. 

I fear suffering a slow and painful death more than actual being dead, if that makes sense? 

It would be nice to think I left something positive behind or someone would remember me in a good light, so I also fear living an unproductive life and not leaving a mark on the world. However rationally I can see that this is the reality for me and millions/billions of people in the history of humanity.


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## clarkekent (Dec 2, 2015)

My greatest fear is leaving this world without fulfilling at least half of my sexual fantasies.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

I'm fine with it to be honest, throw me in a rubbish skip if its too costly for a funeral, I don't care.



clarkekent said:


> My greatest fear is leaving this world without fulfilling at least half of my sexual fantasies.


If you had the choice ck, what would be your last one to fulfill on your death bed?


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## Tetragammon (Jun 2, 2015)

@Stegosuarez

This is a very common problem for new-ish atheists and agnostics so you're definitely not alone. I had some bouts of sheer panic and terror early on too. Still do, on the rare occasion -- not for my own death, but for my parents.

Ultimately you need to convince yourself that it simply doesn't matter. When you die, you die -- and then you won't be capable of regret or anxiety or anything else. There's absolutely no use in fearing the inevitable. So cherish every moment and every day while life lasts! I found so much more joy and happiness in life once I got to that point. It might also help you to realize that the basic energy that fuels your brain and body will never disappear -- it simply changes forms. And we will live on in the memories of others, for a time at least.

I never found much comfort in Christian notions of the afterlife though. For one thing I don't think that most people really deeply consider what "eternity" means. Forever and ever, without end... not just hundreds or thousands or even trillions of years, but infinity. Frankly I wouldn't want to live forever, even if it were somehow made "perfect." Eventually things would get boring and tedious. Hell, I'm already sick and tired of being "me." And I *definitely* wouldn't want to spend eternity doing churchy **** like singing hymns, listening to sermons or even being anywhere near such self-righteous sycophants!


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## Rains (Jan 20, 2016)

I felt this way for a while but I don't think I am that afraid of death anymore... I mean instinctively I am but intellectually I think I'm coming to terms with it. And I think it's partly because I've been watching someone (whose an atheist) these last few months go through the dying process. And this is the first time I've witnessed what would probably be called a 'good death', because this person isn't afraid of death and they have a philosophical and unconflicted approach to the whole thing. 

You mention being afraid of no afterlife, but many atheists do sort of believe in an afterlife in the sense that you've changed everyone you've ever met in ways unknown to you and even them, just by being alive. And you've indirectly changed others' lives you've never met too. Many atheists also believe in an afterlife in terms of becoming part of nature again. It's up to you to foster a sense of romance and poignancy in that though.


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## SFC01 (Feb 10, 2016)

Tetragammon said:


> And I *definitely* wouldn't want to spend eternity doing churchy **** like singing hymns, listening to sermons or even being anywhere near such self-righteous sycophants!


Imagine the horror of that, sheer torture - makes me shudder.


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## Azazello (May 12, 2013)

UKguy said:


> I think deep down most people have a fear of death even if they won't consciously acknowledge it. I think it is normal to be scared of the unknown...


Perhaps. May be I just have not thought deep enough about it. For now, though, I appear to be only scared by the things that I'm fairly certain exist. It is not the unknown that I fear but the things I know that can hurt me. As such, death is totally inconsequential to me and I have no fear of it. Dying, on the other hand, scares me ****less, which is probably the only reason why I am still around.


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## FinallyContentat50 (Jan 28, 2017)

I am non-religious and would define myself as an agnostic. I imagine that my relationship to religion is similar to what I've heard Neil DeGrasse Tyson express: my life simply doesn't revolve around religion. Through hospice nursing I was able to explore what seemed to be an already existent orientation toward death/my place in the universe. I see the value of being part of the natural processes of the universe. It's okay with me that my organic parts will decay and return to enrich the physical world. Somehow I have a sense that there's a parallel development that will affect my spirituality/my soul, too. I like to see my views as both tribal and poetic/artistic. I think in this day and age we're encouraged to be so self-aware that we've lost that sense of how we fit in community and the world at large. And this from someone who basically lives like a hermit. Enjoyed reading all your comments!


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## Peanutbutter Toast (Jul 20, 2011)

I see death as the great equalizer. Those who have everything will lose everything. While those of us who have nothing will lose nothing.

I don't consider oblivion to be a guaruntee, hence why I consider myself agnostic. However I take far more comfort in the idea of oblivion than I do in the concept of eternal consciousness. For me, consciousness has always been associated with suffering and I cannot imagine a conscious reality without suffering. I hate that consciousness exists at all, to be perfectly honest, because it necessitates the existence of suffering. 

We've all experienced oblivion during the times when we dreamlessly sleep. What's so scary about it? I wish every morning that I could stay that way forever. And some day I probably will. That's comforting to me.


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## reese444 (Dec 28, 2016)

Yeah, somewhat. I have come to the conclusion that either God is pure evil or he doesn't exist. So I'm pretty much 50/50 on whether I'll burn in hell or I'll just stop existing.


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## kageri (Oct 2, 2014)

Nope. Wouldn't it be nice if there was something better but if that can't happen then nothingness would be great. What would I care afterward if there is no thought beyond that? What would it matter if you died and that was it? You are dead. Is there something you want to accomplish before nothingness? Cause I don't. Is this world that great to hang around in forever to avoid nothingness? It isn't for me. Even if there is a hell I might already be in it. I've got too much crap I have to keep fighting to waste energy on what I can't change.


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## hammert (Feb 18, 2017)

I also worry about death but lately I realized that being worried will take me nowhere so I decided to just enjoy my life fully while being careful in everything I do. I will do my passion and be everything that I want to become in this life.


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## Blag (Dec 12, 2014)

I have read all of your posts guys, discussing about your opinions on god and afterlife. Let me give you a very practical and scientific view of life and death:

Be it agnostic, athiest or religious, *all have to currently accept mortality* (please note my use of the word "currently"). This also means that *you have limited time*. So all you can do currently, is *increase the amount of time you have* to spend on what you want to do in this limited time you have:

1.*Try toggl.com and time all your activities*, you'll be amazed how much time you spend surfing forums, watching TV and watching videos. When i started i noticed i waste as much time as a sleep.

2. Live efficiently. I.e. sleep efficiently,

Now, allow me to address the concept of afterlife.


Ung201 said:


> _Cogito Egro Sum_
> I think; therefore I am.
> Life can be best described as the subjective experience of yourself relative to everything else in conceivable existence.


I'm pretty sure you've had moments where you haven't "thought" at all, moments when you felt like you were controlled by something else entirely. When you weren't actively thinking, did you cease to exist? No, you were *observing*.

*We are all undoubtedly observers.* You may wish to debate whether or not we have the power to choose, whether or not we are actually controlling our thoughts or is it the laws of science which are controlling everything everywhere. We may just have an illusion of choice. *But, amongst all theories and religions of the world, you are still an observer.* Nothing can take that away from you. *And this offers a possibility of an afterlife.* Of what kind? Cannot be said. Do we still live after death? Cannot be said.

One very important thing to consider though: *Time cease to matter when you're not observing.* But this state of "non observance" can only be achieved by sleep or meditation.

*Time is the only god you need to worship by respecting it guys.*

Ohh i forgot to tell about my opinions on death and such. Here i go:
As somebody previously mentioned and i accept, the only thing that hurts people during death is the dying part. *I too only fear the dying part and not death itself.* But there is something else i fear, and you may call it narcissism. *I also fear that the world will go to ruin without me and my opinions. So, I am still here.*


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## kageri (Oct 2, 2014)

I could put a ton of effort into living efficiently... or I could just do whatever the hell I enjoy at the time I enjoy it. Far simpler, less energy, more enjoyable than planning it all out. Mostly I plan half a year ahead. Of course I could double my enjoyable time just by moving out of this part of the country. The cold half the year is mostly just spent planning the warm half of the year from under an electric blanket while sleeping a lot cause it's dark a lot and when it gets dark it gets very cold so we can't even do night hiking. Cold weather asthma, poor circulation, low energy level... not conductive to 0F before windchill hikes on the ice or trying to break through snow to my waist some years. Those years getting to the car and uncovering it is a workout along with heart and respiratory risk.


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## Franz Ferdinand (Jun 4, 2013)

Ung201 said:


> I was never really much of a God-fearing person. I suppose I was a tad bit back when I was little, but as I got older and more cynical, my sense of divine faith continued to dwindle and dwindle until it was no longer something I could rely on for guidance or comfort. While the latter isn't a problem for me -- I've been able to fine-tune my moral compass over the years through pursuing enlightenment, if that doesn't sound too self-righteous -- I do constantly find myself anxious over the idea of there being no afterlife. In other words, death scares the living crap out of me -- more specifically, eternal oblivion. The idea of having absolutely no sense of space, time, or self is so uncomprehending that it's terrifying. I doesn't help either that I currently hold the looming notion that I'm going to die young, soon even. (Nuclear war, environmental disaster, global pandemic, lifelong heart problems, etc.)
> 
> ar
> 
> Are there any other agnostics or atheists out there who share the same anxiety about death? I can't imagine that I'm the only one.


At me demoralize a bit the fact that entropy always wins.


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## Ominous Indeed (Sep 6, 2015)

I am not worried about what comes after death, and that is different from saying I don't worry about dieing - I don't want to die. I personally just think of after life as sleep. Just like I would be going to bed, sleep and have no dreams. I already feel familiar with it, and that is why I am not scared. I worry more about what my Christian friends might think happen to me when I die.


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## Beebee1999 (Jun 30, 2017)

This is something I have struggled with for my 27 years. Since I was 6 I've feared my parents dying it stopped me from eating and sleeping for ages and then one day I stopped worrying.
About a year ago I started thinking about death again but this time I was thinking about me. I can't get my head around the fact there was time where I hadn't exsisted which of course I wasn't aware of. I now exist so how can I go back to not exsisting? My memories of my loved ones my feelings towards them won't exsist either. 
People say you'll be dead so you won't know but how is that comforting? What is the point in exsistance if it will inevitabley end? 
I've always been unsure about religion, I like to believe there is a higher being and we will join our passed loved ones when we die but I question how that is possible. Where do we go where everyone who has ever lived or died is? Will I be able to feel and remember my life? 
I've been to psychic evenings, my friends mum holds them and she "speaks" to the dead it was so convincing and they have also done boards where my polish friends dad came through and was spelling in polish something none of those on the board can speak. I found this comforting for a short while.
Every night I am in crippling fear to the point I have been sick. I don't do well with not knowing exactly what will happen and all of the facts. I can't see how I'll ever get over this fear.....


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## ScorchedEarth (Jul 12, 2014)

Huh, I believe in the exact same thing but it's a comforting thought. And it's not even like I'm in costant pain, it's just that the thought of a dreamless sleep doesn't scare me. Sounds cozy actually. I guess I should count myself lucky I'm exempt from that existential angst.


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## Squirrelevant (Jul 27, 2008)

I used to tell myself that death was not something I was afraid of, but I don't think I knew myself well enough at the time.

I feel the same fear. I've recently been put under general anesthesia for several operations. I imagine that death is like that and then you just somehow don't ever come out the other end of it. At least that seems like the best we can hope for... It's weird to contemplate.

No one lives forever


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## GibberingMaw (Jul 3, 2017)

I'm agnostic but I don't really think of/care about death. The only time it crosses my mind is when I am sick. Although, if I had to think about it more i'm in the middle. I don't believe it is just over, but at the same time I don't really think about there being a Heaven. I'd like to think we are reincarnated. But, I am not really religious or opinionated about life after death. So, all I can hope is that it isn't just over.


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## Blag (Dec 12, 2014)

EBecca said:


> I agree. Our existence and the existence of our universe might depend on us. Not that we're the most important species in the world, but it's like, if we're not here, does it even matter that something exists without us?


This exact thing is called the Anthropic Principle. Intellectual discussions are the supreme, so keep yourself informed.


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## riverbird (Mar 30, 2016)

Myosr said:


> The idea of being dead doesn't scare me.
> 
> The idea of going through a lot of pain in the process itself scares me.


This is how I feel too.


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## sad1231234 (Jul 10, 2016)

Dont be anxious, picture it like heaven lol. You cant fel any pain, anger, sadness, depression, boredom, frustration, etc. Hell, you wont even be alive to feel anything lol. Nothing scary about death, it's just like going to sleep forever, leaving this cruel world.


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## Club Tropicana (Sep 12, 2017)

We have evolved natural self preservation instincts, I believe religion is so popular because the brain does somersaults with joy at the prospect of not having to die. 

Unfortunately no matter how unpleasant the idea of death is we have no reason to believe consciousness can exist outside of the physical brain. We have very good reasons to believe that everything that we experience, think, feel etc is based entirely on the complex interaction between the 100 billion neurons within our brains and nothing else. It's a terrifying prospect but you almost certainly won't experience a thing or even know you were ever alive for that matter.


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## Peanutbutter Toast (Jul 20, 2011)

I feel like the nature of consciousness itself is such a huge mystery that we really have no place assuming anything about what happens to it after death. I wouldn't be surprised if some day we learn what causes our brains to have consciousness, and maybe even learn to reproduce it artificially, but right now we are basically clueless. Presumably it just naturally arises in sufficiently advanced information processing systems, I guess? But why does that happen? What is the underlying mechanism that turns an unconscious information processing system into a conscious information processing system? 

That said, I do not believe in the supernatural at all, by virtue of the fact that I do not think the concept of "supernatural" makes logical sense. What does it even mean? Just like the word "magic", it's a nebulous, wibbly wobbly term that doesn't refer to anything concrete. 

I believe that if consciousness does continue in some form after death, it's a part of nature. A part of the natural processes of the universe. Why wouldn't it be? Just because an aspect of nature isn't understood, that doesn't make it supernatural. 

In that sense, it can easily become far more terrifying to contemplate an afterlife than it is to contemplate nonexistence. Nonexistence will be like taking a well deserved rest. We won't have to worry about suffering ever again. The brief window during which suffering was a possibility will have come to a permanent end. But an existence that we know nothing about, that perhaps simply occurs as part of the chaotic natural processes of the universe? Who knows what kind of misery and anguish could be in store for us. It's a complete crapshoot. 

I do have some speculations about a potential post-death existence, though. Namely, I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that we won't keep any memories or other information stored inside our brains. Consciousness may be an unknown factor, but data stored on a physical storage medium is not. Once the storage medium is gone, the data is gone. Consciousness may very well be something that exists beyond our individual lives, but it will be a consciousness divorced from our current identity. 

So that's my general take on it. Either we stop existing completely, or our current identy stops existing and our consciousness continues in some other uknown form. But, again, that's just speculation.


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## Club Tropicana (Sep 12, 2017)

Peanutbutter Toast said:


> I feel like the nature of consciousness itself is such a huge mystery that we really have no place assuming anything about what happens to it after death. I wouldn't be surprised if some day we learn what causes our brains to have consciousness, and maybe even learn to reproduce it artificially, but right now we are basically clueless. Presumably it just naturally arises in sufficiently advanced information processing systems, I guess? But why does that happen? What is the underlying mechanism that turns an unconscious information processing system into a conscious information processing system?
> 
> That said, I do not believe in the supernatural at all, by virtue of the fact that I do not think the concept of "supernatural" makes logical sense. What does it even mean? Just like the word "magic", it's a nebulous, wibbly wobbly term that doesn't refer to anything concrete.
> 
> ...


I do think it's quite unlikely that consciousness would exist independently from a brain. When you go to sleep on a night or have a surgery you lose consciousness do you not? This is due to changes within our brains. People have been knocked conscious/unconscious by electrocuting certain parts of our brains and we know that other people have lost parts of their brain and retain the ability to be conscious. With this in mind it appears that certain parts of our brain control consciousness however the true nature of how exactly consciousness forms remains a mystery.

If we die and do somehow remain conscious what on earth would be the difference between this consciousness and the consciousness you have (or don't) when you're put under for an operation? All your senses, thoughts, feelings, choices, desires, hopes, dreams, senses etc are based entirely on the biological functioning of the brain. If you remain conscious but lose all your thoughts and senses after the death of the brain then could you really call that conscious?

Interesting to think about, cheers.


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## Peanutbutter Toast (Jul 20, 2011)

Club Tropicana said:


> I do think it's quite unlikely that consciousness would exist independently from a brain. When you go to sleep on a night or have a surgery you lose consciousness do you not? This is due to changes within our brains. People have been knocked conscious/unconscious by electrocuting certain parts of our brains and we know that other people have lost parts of their brain and retain the ability to be conscious. With this in mind it appears that certain parts of our brain control consciousness however the true nature of how exactly consciousness forms remains a mystery.
> 
> If we die and do somehow remain conscious what on earth would be the difference between this consciousness and the consciousness you have (or don't) when you're put under for an operation? All your senses, thoughts, feelings, choices, desires, hopes, dreams, senses etc are based entirely on the biological functioning of the brain. If you remain conscious but lose all your thoughts and senses after the death of the brain then could you really call that conscious?
> 
> Interesting to think about, cheers.


Well that's the thing, if consciousness exists independant from our brains then we would have no memory of it when we wake up. We would have no ability to form or retain memories, no ability to process data. It would be pure awareness, whatever awareness truly is, without an information processing system. A blank slate, basically. At which point you could ask "is it really even us anymore, then?", which I guess depends on how you want to look at it.


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## goldenratio (Sep 21, 2017)

I studied the whole "life and death" subject a while back and ran into two interesting books called "Journey of Souls" and "Destiny of Souls" by the late Dr. Michael Newton. Newton was a hypnotist who stated/claimed he figured a way to use hypnosis and age-regression to get his patients to go back to previous lives, in such a way that also revealed what happened BETWEEN lives on Earth.

He states in "Journey of Souls" that we have a conscious, subconscious, and superconscious. 

I found quite fascinating parts of both books, and would recommend anyone with an inquiring mind and interested in the topic of what happens after death, or between lives, read them. Start with "Journey of Souls" first. I hope what he wrote is actual (as in, not made up). But I can say this... I feel less anxious about death after having read parts of both books.


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## sad1231234 (Jul 10, 2016)

splendidbob said:


> A question, when you were more religious did that _really_ comfort you about death to any significant degree? Just curious about whether being religious actually does help in that respect.
> 
> Death is one of those things that (for me) I try not to think about. Intellectually I know it isn't something to fear, but emotively, its always going to be scary, cos that fear is pretty much hardwired into the genes


I was a christian most of my life, you dont fear death at all lol, matter of fact you look forwards to it a lot.


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## equiiaddict (Jun 27, 2006)

I was raised Catholic but realized I didn't believe in any of that several years ago. I now identify as agnostic. I don't know if anything comes after death, and I don't think we have any way of knowing, but I will admit that I do hope something does, however pathetic that may sound. Death terrifies me, and just thinking about it gives me incredible anxiety. :frown2:

However, what I've found to be very comforting is that whole thing people have been doing recently where they "plant" the ashes of someone who died as a tree and that person "grows" a tree, for lack of a better description. I don't know why that's soothing to me, maybe because it gives me a sense of peace from more or less knowing what will happen to me once I'm gone. It's my own way of giving myself an "afterlife," in a sense. Obviously I know it's nowhere near the same thing, but it works for me.


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## Club Tropicana (Sep 12, 2017)

I've been an atheist all of my life, I'm used to debating religious folk in the comments section of YouTube videos and having no problem with dying (meaning I don't think about it negatively all the time.) I moved away from my farther though and now currently live alone, these past few months I've just become absolutely obsessed and terrified about this. I am utterly terrified of the fact that I will die one day and go back to the same state of none existence I was in before I was born FOREVER.

Something that's even worse than death for me which is another obsession is a fear of neuroscience. I hate how my thoughts can be seen on a brain scan, I hate how everything I do think, feel, say, all my preferences, my personality etc is based entirely on a fragile, ugly, wrinkled piece of biology within my skull. I hate that all of my choices are entirely biological and I couldn't have chosen otherwise etc. Obviously when you die your brain dies and decomposes inside your skull so again, it really sticks the boot in your ribs and makes it so blatantly obvious that once you're dead you're truely dead.

I'd recommend you YouTube Liz Parish as she and her company are actually making efforts with some promising results in life extension. Life extension and the possibilities for the future is something I hold onto dearly now along with making sure I get plenty of nutrition and exercise so I can stay around long enough to benefit from some of the potentially amazing technologies and medications of the future.


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## MadnessVertigo (Sep 26, 2016)

Club Tropicana said:


> Something that's even worse than death for me which is another obsession is a fear of neuroscience. I hate how my thoughts can be seen on a brain scan, I hate how everything I do think, feel, say, all my preferences, my personality etc is based entirely on a fragile, ugly, wrinkled piece of biology within my skull. I hate that all of my choices are entirely biological and I couldn't have chosen otherwise etc. Obviously when you die your brain dies and decomposes inside your skull so again, it really sticks the boot in your ribs and makes it so blatantly obvious that once you're dead you're truely dead.


Neuroscience cannot reveal your thoughts and feelings, nor does it answer the question of whether all your choices are biologically determined. Perhaps it might someday when technology is more advanced, but it is not even close to what you are describing as of now.


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## Club Tropicana (Sep 12, 2017)

UKguy said:


> I think deep down most people have a fear of death even if they won't consciously acknowledge it. I think it is normal to be scared of the unknown... Atheists can quite rationally think that death must be like being asleep or what it was like before they were ever born, but there is not 100% certainty there... it is that 'what if' that raises anxiety about death.
> 
> I fear suffering a slow and painful death more than actual being dead, if that makes sense?
> 
> It would be nice to think I left something positive behind or someone would remember me in a good light, so I also fear living an unproductive life and not leaving a mark on the world. However rationally I can see that this is the reality for me and millions/billions of people in the history of humanity.


I am an atheist and there's not even a glimmer of "what if" in my head, I feel so entirely convinced that I know what death is like and that's what scares me.


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## Club Tropicana (Sep 12, 2017)

MadnessVertigo said:


> Club Tropicana said:
> 
> 
> > Something that's even worse than death for me which is another obsession is a fear of neuroscience. I hate how my thoughts can be seen on a brain scan, I hate how everything I do think, feel, say, all my preferences, my personality etc is based entirely on a fragile, ugly, wrinkled piece of biology within my skull. I hate that all of my choices are entirely biological and I couldn't have chosen otherwise etc. Obviously when you die your brain dies and decomposes inside your skull so again, it really sticks the boot in your ribs and makes it so blatantly obvious that once you're dead you're truely dead.
> ...


No however thinking a thought will light up the frontal lobe portion of my brain on a brain scan. We know which chemicals correspond with which feelings and we know that all thoughts are the result of prior causes within the brain. We can even use neuro imaging to predict people's choices up to 7 - 8 seconds before they are even aware they have made the choice and they still think they're undecided. Split brain patients who have the row of nerves connecting left and right brain sometimes become essentially two different people in one skull, one an atheist and one a Christian for example. We are nothing but conscious observers of our thoughts, feelings, emotions and behaviours. All of the seemingly meaningful things in life like having a partner that you love so much or enjoying a lovely piece of music is entirely based off our neuropsychology and it is a big problem as far as I'm concerned.


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## Blag (Dec 12, 2014)

EBecca said:


> I agree. Our existence and the existence of our universe might depend on us. Not that we're the most important species in the world, but it's like, if we're not here, does it even matter that something exists without us? This world, as it's familiar to us, would be gone. Everything that makes us humans, basically all that matters to us would disappear. Maybe the universe is different than we perceive it. How we see it through human eyes is what we call "life". Science is human too, because it also depends on the way we see the world. Sometimes I feel like my life is infinite. I don't remember not being alive. Sometimes it feels like every new experience I have is just like a forgotten memory that reappears in my mind, like my life has no beginning and no end.





Tetragammon said:


> @Stegosuarez
> 
> This is a very common problem for new-ish atheists and agnostics so you're definitely not alone. I had some bouts of sheer panic and terror early on too. Still do, on the rare occasion -- not for my own death, but for my parents.
> 
> ...





Club Tropicana said:


> No however thinking a thought will light up the frontal lobe portion of my brain on a brain scan. We know which chemicals correspond with which feelings and we know that all thoughts are the result of prior causes within the brain. We can even use neuro imaging to predict people's choices up to 7 - 8 seconds before they are even aware they have made the choice and they still think they're undecided. Split brain patients who have the row of nerves connecting left and right brain sometimes become essentially two different people in one skull, one an atheist and one a Christian for example. We are nothing but conscious observers of our thoughts, feelings, emotions and behaviours. All of the seemingly meaningful things in life like having a partner that you love so much or enjoying a lovely piece of music is entirely based off our neuropsychology and it is a big problem as far as I'm concerned.


*Atleast we ARE conscious observers.* The fact that we are even observing the marvels our brain doing itself is supernatural in a way. We may be completely governed by physics and chemistry of the natural world, but we are observing it happen. This act of observation itself is something that is not necessary for life, but somehow a part of it, and links to the supernatural. But this revelation is only possible for yourself, and not others.


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## Canadian Brotha (Jan 23, 2009)

I have anxieties about death as an agnostic for sure. I've never encountered death up close in my personal life to date & I don't know how I would react if I did. People I've known have died but never in my vicinity nor have I been to any funerals, I've just been told or heard about it later. 

When I really think about it though I always come back to the fact that no book(or books) written by living men can define what death actually is as far as I'm concerned. An afterlife is a nice thought but even if there is one I have no reason to believe it would be connected to the life I'm living now. That's sort of related to reincarnation theory in that perhaps it's a series of cycles but that that I would be aware of my previous life or lives is in no way guaranteed. In short there's nothing about the ideas surrounding death that gives me any certainty about what happens afterwards.

When it really comes down to it I think I'm far more concerned about the process of dying than death itself. So many of us die in excruciating ways and even if it's quick I imagine those seconds of devastation to feel like a lifetime of horrors. That is a great fear of mine for sure, no doubt about that. Part of me feels like I do now regarding anxiety/depression, it's not that I want to die, it's just that I want whatever makes the pain end once & for all...and that's no guarantee, especially by some religious doctrines which say that it's possible for your worst fears/pains to extend indefinitely because you didn't adhere to said creeds. 

I am in no way at all prepared for death whatsoever


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## hunterjumper11 (Nov 8, 2017)

Club Tropicana said:


> I am utterly terrified of the fact that I will die one day and go back to the same state of none existence I was in before I was born FOREVER.


THIS. I feel the exact same way and it's so horrible. It's a crippling fear that consumes my life. Just the thought of not existing anymore is so scary to me.
I'm agnostic though, so I truly don't know what I believe or what will happen after death. I do hope there's something though, however pathetic that may sound. :/


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## Peanutbutter Toast (Jul 20, 2011)

Tetragammon said:


> @Stegosuarez
> 
> This is a very common problem for new-ish atheists and agnostics so you're definitely not alone. I had some bouts of sheer panic and terror early on too. Still do, on the rare occasion -- not for my own death, but for my parents.
> 
> ...


The problem with that perspective is that the concept of "boredom" only exists to us because of our limited flesh monkey brains. There's no reason to think that boredom would exist to a nonbiological, cosmic sort of entity, which is what most religions believe we will become.

Personally, I would love to live eternally as a godlike being. I would be capable of experiencing an endless amount of things, perhaps even temporarily inhabit mortal forms so I could live out an endless number of lives. I could even theoretically erase any of my memories that I wanted to, so I could experience things fresh again.

The fact that it would be awesome doesn't make it true, though. So many atheists argue from the perspective of "well those religious fantasies of yours would actually not be that great", when they should be coming at it from the perspective of "those fantasies may potentially be great, but that has **** all to do with the question of their validity ".


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## Tetragammon (Jun 2, 2015)

Peanutbutter Toast said:


> The problem with that perspective is that the concept of "boredom" only exists to us because of our limited flesh monkey brains. There's no reason to think that boredom would exist to a nonbiological, cosmic sort of entity, which is what most religions believe we will become.
> 
> Personally, I would love to live eternally as a godlike being. I would be capable of experiencing an endless amount of things, perhaps even temporarily inhabit mortal forms so I could live out an endless number of lives. I could even theoretically erase any of my memories that I wanted to, so I could experience things fresh again.
> 
> The fact that it would be awesome doesn't make it true, though. So many atheists argue from the perspective of "well those religious fantasies of yours would actually not be that great", when they should be coming at it from the perspective of "those fantasies may potentially be great, but that has **** all to do with the question of their validity ".


By the same token, you have absolutely no idea what it could be like to become a "nonbiological, cosmic sort of entity." If such a thing were even possible, I don't think "experience" would actually matter at all because perception wouldn't be limited to one particular point in time and/or space; you could theoretically "experience" everything at once. Or everything at every time, if you could exist outside of time. But at what point does this whole argument become absolutely irrelevant, not only because it's so far beyond our capacity to understand, but also because it will simply not happen?

You're splitting hairs here; we're arguing the exact same thing. I just try to convince people that they may not actually want what they think they want, from within the theoretical framework of their religion. You'll never convince a true believer that their beliefs aren't "valid" because those beliefs aren't based on reason or logic; people believe whatever they want because they think it's convenient, or preferable to the hard truths that they would otherwise be forced to confront. I try to get them to think critically about what their beliefs would actually mean, and tear them apart from the inside. Because you cannot argue with blind faith.

Furthermore, many religious people have this notion that their particular version of "afterlife" is something that everyone should want and strive for, when that's simply not logical or feasible. It's incredibly important to understand that not everyone wants to be treated the same way, and that ideas of "perfection" differ from individual to individual. I'm pretty sure my idea of a "perfect" existence would be "Hell" to a great many people.


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## Peanutbutter Toast (Jul 20, 2011)

Tetragammon said:


> By the same token, you have absolutely no idea what it could be like to become a "nonbiological, cosmic sort of entity." If such a thing were even possible, I don't think "experience" would actually matter at all because perception wouldn't be limited to one particular point in time and/or space; you could theoretically "experience" everything at once. Or everything at every time, if you could exist outside of time. But at what point does this whole argument become absolutely irrelevant, not only because it's so far beyond our capacity to understand, but also because it will simply not happen?
> 
> You're splitting hairs here; we're arguing the exact same thing. I just try to convince people that they may not actually want what they think they want, from within the theoretical framework of their religion. You'll never convince a true believer that their beliefs aren't "valid" because those beliefs aren't based on reason or logic; people believe whatever they want because they think it's convenient, or preferable to the hard truths that they would otherwise be forced to confront. I try to get them to think critically about what their beliefs would actually mean, and tear them apart from the inside. Because you cannot argue with blind faith.
> 
> Furthermore, many religious people have this notion that their particular version of "afterlife" is something that everyone should want and strive for, when that's simply not logical or feasible. It's incredibly important to understand that not everyone wants to be treated the same way, and that ideas of "perfection" differ from individual to individual. I'm pretty sure my idea of a "perfect" existence would be "Hell" to a great many people.


I guess I'm just too accustomed to dealing with the hardcore "Doctorate in Theology" types who very much _do_ think critically about their beliefs but have come up with a complex framework of rationalizations for those beliefs. Arguing with them from within the framework of their belief system is an exercise in futility, in my experience.


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## SimGishel (Jul 30, 2017)

Yes, frightening to think about, for sure. The truth is that nobody really knows what happens after death but I think it's safe to assume that the experience would be the same as what it's like before being born. If that's the case then I take comfort in knowing that I wont be too concerned about it once I'm gone.


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