# failure in therapy



## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

A psychotherapist here describes what might be an untreatable case of social phobia, avoidance, or something like that: [http://www.drstanleygoldstein.com/files/.pdf].

I am wondering what people here think about this. I am curious, because I seriously consider myself to be an untreatable case of avoidant personality. I find it gratifying, in an odd way, to find psychotherapists discussing the issue so seriously. In therapy, I was sometimes told that lack of progress is entirely my fault. This never seemed right to me.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

I don't see how it's possible to fail in therapy, unless a patient / client were to go in and had already decided he or she wasn't going to do anything to help him or herself. It'd have to be an act of purpose - but that's just my opinion.

if the patient is serious about getting better, and the therapist is good, then it may take more time (everyone's different), but to fail? it'd have to _active_ failure.


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

leonardess said:


> I don't see how it's possible to fail in therapy, unless a patient / client were to go in and had already decided he or she wasn't going to do anything to help him or herself. It'd have to be an act of purpose - but that's just my opinion.
> 
> if the patient is serious about getting better, and the therapist is good, then it may take more time (everyone's different), but to fail? it'd have to _active_ failure.


I failed in therapy while trying very hard to get better. It wouldn't make sense to be in therapy without trying to get better.


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## VagueResemblance (Apr 17, 2010)

That link is broken.


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## kc1895 (Sep 4, 2009)

Here is the working link: http://www.drstanleygoldstein.com/files/.pdf
I think an extra bracket was added to the original one.

This article was very disturbing for me. That woman's situation sounded similar to mine in that I did not experience intimacy as a child. My relationships with other people suffer and I've never been able to date. The therapist described a set structure that people are born into, and even lifelong therapy may not change the molding that the person has been casted into. His patient apparently failed by not reaching her goal which was to get married, despite having seen her from college to her 40's. However, she quit therapy as a result of having her depression "lifted". Perhaps she had changed her goals in life and focused on other things that make her life more meaningful. But still, not having the sense of intimacy and being in relationship with others seems to be a deficiency in life. I hope that article does not define my results in therapy, as I can only hope that there is something to live for and someone to help me get there.


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## Invisiblehandicap (Jul 31, 2011)

Sierpinski said:


> A psychotherapist here describes what might be an untreatable case of social phobia, avoidance, or something like that: [http://www.drstanleygoldstein.com/files/.pdf].
> 
> I am wondering what people here think about this. I am curious, because I seriously consider myself to be an untreatable case of avoidant personality. I find it gratifying, in an odd way, to find psychotherapists discussing the issue so seriously. In therapy, I was sometimes told that lack of progress is entirely my fault. This never seemed right to me.


Sorry but I fail to see anything in this article which gives any amount of proof that this lady has a case of incurable avpd. It sounds like the therapist is trying to shift blame onto the patient. There is no analysis of what went wrong, just him saying that she was predestined to fail. Therapists should not blame themselves??? If you are treating someone the same way for 20 years, you are doing something wrong. You are supposed to change your way of therapy when it does not work, rather than saying "this theory has worked for different people before, therefore it must work on her" :no

In essence, there is a difference between someone who is paid a lot of money, and does not try hard enough for their *client*, and someone who tries everything for their client, but still fails. In the business world, someone saying "im sorry I couldn't do it in the way I wanted to so I will just give up", doesn't cut it so why should it in therapy?

I get it if they don't get paid much, but if you are getting paid $60 per hour or something, you should try hard to meet your clients needs..


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

VagueResemblance said:


> That link is broken.


The brackets can mess things up. Let me retype it:

http://www.drstanleygoldstein.com/files/.pdf


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

kc1895 said:


> Here is the working link: http://www.drstanleygoldstein.com/files/.pdf
> I think an extra bracket was added to the original one.
> 
> This article was very disturbing for me. That woman's situation sounded similar to mine in that I did not experience intimacy as a child. My relationships with other people suffer and I've never been able to date. The therapist described a set structure that people are born into, and even lifelong therapy may not change the molding that the person has been casted into. His patient apparently failed by not reaching her goal which was to get married, despite having seen her from college to her 40's. However, she quit therapy as a result of having her depression "lifted". Perhaps she had changed her goals in life and focused on other things that make her life more meaningful. But still, not having the sense of intimacy and being in relationship with others seems to be a deficiency in life. I hope that article does not define my results in therapy, as I can only hope that there is something to live for and someone to help me get there.


The woman in the article also reminded me of myself, although I think my childhood was much worse. I am now 47, and feel that I got nothing out of therapy. Even hypnotherapy only helped for a few days, and attempts to hypnotize myself only result in a short-lived buzz. Instead of one therapist, however, I had a whole slew of them, trying to find one that would help me.


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

In a way, the article was a relief. The therapist acknowledged lack of progress but without accusing the client of resisting. It seemed more humane than the usual approach of saying that the client just wants to spend money on nothing and live an empty life.


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

It may sound like an odd thing to say, but I'm not convinced if mental health is for everyone. Especially given all the trouble, expense, and pain of therapy. Accepting mental illness may just be a way of accepting oneself. I feel that this is the soundtrack of my life:


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

"Jupiter as he created the wolf fierce, the hare timid, the lion brave, the [donkey] stupid, the dog savage, the sheep mild, so he fashioned some men hard of heart, others soft, he generated one given to evil, the other to virtue, and, further, he gave a capacity for reform to one and made another incorrigible. To you, indeed, he assigned an evil soul with no resource for reform. And so both you, for your inborn character, will do evil, and Jupiter, on account of your actions and their evil effects, will punish sternly, and thus he has sworn by the Stygian swamp it will be." Thus spake Apollo to Sextus Tarquinius, and thus one could speak to me.


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## DasBoot89 (Mar 20, 2012)

I read the .PDF and found the story to be interesting, although different to my own story. I get very little enjoyment from intimacy or through interaction with my peers, but my childhood should be at least considered "decent" in the whole scope of things. I am an only child and was bullet ALOT in school, elementary school through high school. My mother always gave me alot of loving attention, but I was constantly ripped away from my mom by my father for his "weekend" or "summer" visitations, due to the fact that my parents were divorced.

I believe all of the emotional trauma that this caused me when I was very young shaped me negatively, and the negative experiences I had with school peers and the bullying only made things worse, overall.

I wonder if the bullying was due to a lowered self esteem which was caused my my early-childhood bonding with my primary care-giver. Like I said I had a very healthy and loving relationship with my mother but I can remember crying ALOT and feeling so sad and isolated when my father would take me, especially for the half-summer visitations when I wouldn't see my mother for weeks or months at a time. Also, it didn't help that my father was a hoarder and that his home was like a prison to the outside world because he was always hiding his big messes.


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

DasBoot89 said:


> I read the .PDF and found the story to be interesting, although different to my own story. I get very little enjoyment from intimacy or through interaction with my peers, but my childhood should be at least considered "decent" in the whole scope of things. I am an only child and was bullet ALOT in school, elementary school through high school. My mother always gave me alot of loving attention, but I was constantly ripped away from my mom by my father for his "weekend" or "summer" visitations, due to the fact that my parents were divorced.
> 
> I believe all of the emotional trauma that this caused me when I was very young shaped me negatively, and the negative experiences I had with school peers and the bullying only made things worse, overall.
> 
> I wonder if the bullying was due to a lowered self esteem which was caused my my early-childhood bonding with my primary care-giver. Like I said I had a very healthy and loving relationship with my mother but I can remember crying ALOT and feeling so sad and isolated when my father would take me, especially for the half-summer visitations when I wouldn't see my mother for weeks or months at a time. Also, it didn't help that my father was a hoarder and that his home was like a prison to the outside world because he was always hiding his big messes.


In a way, I feel that therapy hurt me more than my childhood did. Childhood is not a project. It's just something you get through. Even if it was bad, you got through it and now it's over. Therapy, by contrast, is a project. It's something you could do wrong, something you could fail at. It's not something you just get through and then you're done with it.


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

"Sharon's treatment can be considered successful from several viewpoints. After dropping out of one college she entered and graduated from another and thereafter had a successful career though with considerable anxiety along the way. She traveled widely (on business) and enjoyed a high income."

I've noticed that therapists will often take credit for the patient's career. Does anyone have any thoughts about that?


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Sierpinski said:


> A psychotherapist here describes what might be an untreatable case of social phobia, avoidance, or something like that: [http://www.drstanleygoldstein.com/files/.pdf].
> 
> I am wondering what people here think about this. I am curious, because I seriously consider myself to be an untreatable case of avoidant personality. I find it gratifying, in an odd way, to find psychotherapists discussing the issue so seriously. In therapy, I was sometimes told that lack of progress is entirely my fault. This never seemed right to me.


nobody has an untreatable case of avpd.

if you break it down into small enough chunks you can progress. building a house may seem extremely overwhelming just like going from avpd to social butterfly seems. but laying just one single brick is not overwhelming at all.

with an extreme case of avpd you just have focus on progress not perfection and take small steps. if you do that you will progress no doubt about it. this is fear we are talking about not some complex psychological disorder like schziphrenia.

you just have to except the fact that if you have had an extreme case of avpd for many,many years then it is going to take a long time and a lot of hard work to reach the level you want to be at. but it's not about the destination. it's the journey so you just have to be happy with the progress that you make instead of worrying about not being were you want to be yet


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

paulyD said:


> nobody has an untreatable case of avpd.
> 
> if you break it down into small enough chunks you can progress. building a house may seem extremely overwhelming just like going from avpd to social butterfly seems. but laying just one single brick is not overwhelming at all.
> 
> ...


I first sought medical help for anxiety when I was 10 years old. I am now 47. I have had well over a decade of psychotherapy, taken lots of meds, and read a stack of self-help books. My lack of progress is breathtaking, as is the eagerness of mental health professionals to blame me for not wanting to progress. What's striking is that completely opposite forms of behavior are taken to be forms of sabotage. If I am considering leaving a therapist, that means I want the therapy to fail. After all, I could be on the verge of a breakthrough and am pulling out just when there is about to be some progress. I have also been told that staying with a therapist when there is no apparent improvement is an attempt to sabotage therapy. After all, if you stay with a therapist who is not helping you, that means you are satisfied with lack of progress. At this point, I would only be impressed by gradual, step-by-step therapy if it were combined with some sort of life-extension technology. And, even then, I would need some good evidence that it actually works. Failure should not automatically be taken as evidence that the patient was vigorously aiming at failure. Evidence for that should take a different form. Otherwise, there is no way to test any given form of therapy.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Sierpinski said:


> I first sought medical help for anxiety when I was 10 years old. I am now 47. I have had well over a decade of psychotherapy, taken lots of meds, and read a stack of self-help books. My lack of progress is breathtaking, as is the eagerness of mental health professionals to blame me for not wanting to progress. What's striking is that completely opposite forms of behavior are taken to be forms of sabotage. If I am considering leaving a therapist, that means I want the therapy to fail. After all, I could be on the verge of a breakthrough and am pulling out just when there is about to be some progress. I have also been told that staying with a therapist when there is no apparent improvement is an attempt to sabotage therapy. After all, if you stay with a therapist who is not helping you, that means you are satisfied with lack of progress. At this point, I would only be impressed by gradual, step-by-step therapy if it were combined with some sort of life-extension technology. And, even then, I would need some good evidence that it actually works. Failure should not automatically be taken as evidence that the patient was vigorously aiming at failure. Evidence for that should take a different form. Otherwise, there is no way to test any given form of therapy.


you are are using the wrong approach.

meds, psychotherapy, seeing therapists. they're all the wrong appraoch to treating avpd.

i could give you a plan to follow and GUARANTEE that you would make progress. you don't need medication. you don't psychotherapy and you don't even need to see a therapist


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

paulyD said:


> you are are using the wrong approach.
> 
> meds, psychotherapy, seeing therapists. they're all the wrong appraoch to treating avpd.
> 
> i could give you a plan to follow and GUARANTEE that you would make progress. you don't need medication. you don't psychotherapy and you don't even need to see a therapist


What do you have in mind?


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

I guess my real question is how one can maintain or acquire a sense of self worth after failing in therapy. I just feel like garbage. In a way, failure in therapy just seems like the ultimate failure. 

There is something paradoxical about therapy. Therapy treats failures. But if one fails in therapy, there is no therapy for that.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Sierpinski said:


> What do you have in mind?


the first thing you need to do before you even try to change is to sort out both your lifestyle and your physical body. before those 2 things are sorted out you are not ready to change

if you are overweight then the 1st thing you need to do is get down to your natural weight. once there it's then important to eat a healthy diet and take up regular exercise. social anxiety is a mental thing but mind effects body and body effects mind. if you are overweight, don't exercise and don't have much energy then your efforts to overcome social anxiety will be severely diminished

as for the lifestyle you should join a martial arts class or some other sort of hobby. preferably go to a martial arts class every tuesday and thursday night. this will get you out of the house, get you interacting with other people and build your confidence.
if you work 9-5 then you need to do something positive with your spare time instead of wasting it like a lot of social phobics do. find something you are really passionate about and fill your time with that. i'm very passionate about therapy and psychology so i fill my time with studying and writing books and stuff like that.
tuesday and thursday night i like to go to a martial arts class. mon, wed, fri night i like to work on my psychology. saturday daytime i work on my psychology. then i have saturday night off. i also have the full sunday off to watch tv, go grocery shopping , visist family etc....

living with great health and a perfect physical body and having a meaningful lifestyle is the foundation to build from


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

once you have sorted out your body and lifestyle your next step is to gain some knowledge. not just about social anxiety though but also ''life'' and ''change'' and self esteem. i would recomend reading the follwing 4 books :

*overcoming social anxiety and shyness by gillian butler
*get the self esteem habit by christene webber
*changing for good by james prochaska (knowledge about change )
*the power of kabbalah by yehuda berg (knowledge about life )


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

once you have sorted out body and lifestyle and have gianed knowledge then you need to create a PLAN:

*combine the step by step treatment plan, in gillian butlers book, with the principles in ''changing for good by james prochaska)


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

once you've got a plan then you need to add some things to help your plan :

*a session or 2 with an nlp practionaire (this sorts the problem at the root cause level)
*learn about physiology, body language and correct breathing. this seriously helps with lowering feelings of anxiety
*learn how to use the nlp techniques of - anchoring, mental rehearsal, modelling, self image vizualisation
*listen dailly to thinkrightnow's conquering social anxiety cd ( www.thinkrightnow.com)
*consider using a hypnosis cd dailly for 21 days. ones that are specific to social anxiety like - shyness, blushing , self conciousness


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

oh and i almost forgot - the batch remedies are fantastic for social anxiety. pick ones especially for the problems that you have like lack of self esteem, lack of assertiveness, lack of self confidence, fears, being aloof

if i remember rightly the remedies for social anxiety are :

*aspen (fear of unkown things)
*mimulus (fear of known things)
*larch (lack of confidence)
*centuary (lack of assetiveness)
*clematis (living in your own world )
*rock rose (terror and fright)
*water violet (aloofness)

you can use all 7 at the same time. just put 2 drops of each into a small amount of water. keep it in a plastic bottle and sip 4 times per day. you will see results in 3 weeks or less. 

the fact is these things WORK simple as that. they do what they say on the tin. i've had tremendous results from them.


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

This is interesting. I recently got together with some people I knew in high school. They told me that I'm just as nervous and uptight as I ever was. This really hurt me, because it underscored how useless all the therapy, drugs, and self-help books have been. So I thought back over what things I have been able to accomplish. A little over 15 years ago, I dieted and exercised, and managed to lose a lot of weight. So my body is something I have some control over. Before I read your posts, I was thinking that maybe I should focus on that since it is something I can evidently control. And no one will come along and say "You unconsciously don't want to lose weight," because I know from past experience that I can lose weight. (I would probably only need to lose 10 or 20 pounds.)


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## Sierpinski (Jun 17, 2012)

Melvik said:


> Failure in therapy due to the non technical hand when apply on the body definitely the results will be very bad so for such condition here is necessary to proceed yourself towards the competent therapist for taking the expert opinion and taking the skilled hand to treat the disease.


I was living in New York City for some time and even had some therapists who are well known in their fields, who get quoted in journals and newspapers.


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## DasBoot89 (Mar 20, 2012)

paulyD said:


> oh and i almost forgot - the batch remedies are fantastic for social anxiety. pick ones especially for the problems that you have like lack of self esteem, lack of assertiveness, lack of self confidence, fears, being aloof
> 
> if i remember rightly the remedies for social anxiety are :
> 
> ...


So sip 1/4 of the bottle 4 times a day or 1 full bottle 4 times a day?

I am interested.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

DasBoot89 said:


> So sip 1/4 of the bottle 4 times a day or 1 full bottle 4 times a day?
> 
> I am interested.


no all you have to do is put about a big mouthful of water into a bottle. add 2 drops of each. and sip a bit of the mouthful 4 times per day


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## DasBoot89 (Mar 20, 2012)

Interesting. I will have to search for these herbs. Sounds like an interesting expirament.


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