# How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriage ?



## Mambo Mick (Jun 13, 2007)

Every time I hear about someone with SA talk about their spouse, or girlfriend or boyfriend, I am utterly shocked in dis-belief. It baffles me how anyone else with this condition can manage such a thing when the condition has pretty much wiped out every possibility of this happening in my life.

I'm a 38 years old guy - never been married - never dated a girl longer than 2 months, in my entire life - and even then, I've only dated 3 girls as long as 2 months. Most of the time, I can't get a 2nd date, and lately things have been so bad, that I have a hard time getting a 1st date at all.

The ironic part of this is - I'm NOT a wierdo, I'm NOT unattractive (I've been told by many that I'm extremely attractive, I am intelligent, creative, and can be quite witty at times. But SA cripples me when it comes to getting to know someone. Dating and relationships is the thing that my SA impacts the most, so I totally cannot understand how anyone with SA can succeed in that area, especcially get married and stay married.....unless they have a much smaller degree of what I have. Or are they simply finding other people with the same condition who they can relate to ?

When I'm with someone I'm interested in, I find it extremely difficult to relax, to just be "myself", and to "let it flow". I become mechanical, over-analytical, and externally it comes across as quiet and serious and boring, or even the other extreme by becoming hyper-active and irrational or goofy, or 'out of control'.

I've heard other people here talk about how SA affects your job, school and other things, but how do other people with SA deal with dating, relationships and marriage ?


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## barnabas (Apr 24, 2007)

The fact that there's a whole section devoted to "Relationship discussion" obviously says something.


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## Mambo Mick (Jun 13, 2007)

barnabas said:


> The fact that there's a whole section devoted to "Relationship discussion" obviously says something.


I'm sorry - I was not aware of that, I must have overlooked that - I guess I posted in the wrong forum....but hopefully we can still discuss it here


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## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

I can never see myself getting married due to SA & not being "normal".
I've only been asked once and apparently it was just a joke. :sigh My longest relationship lasted 8 months...some people think it's crazy that I'm 23 and haven't had a relationship for longer than that amount of time, but it's not my fault.
Like you, I'm creative, intelligent(well I'm not book smart but I have a hell of alot more common sense than most people do), and I'm told I look good. It's just that I don't talk enough for anyone, I guess. 
I think my only hope is to find someone exactly like me, which I haven't met any and I don't think there is anyone like me, no one who would give me a chance anyway. I did date one guy with SA but that didn't work out...we're better as friends because he got too jealous and angry over stuff that he shouldn't have.


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## leppardess (Nov 8, 2003)

Mambo Mick said:


> I've heard other people here talk about how SA affects your job, school and other things, but how do other people with SA deal with dating, relationships and marriage ?


SA affects different people in different ways. Some have no problems dealing with relationships, while others have huge issues concerning this.

For my part, SA doesn't have a huge effect regarding relationships.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

ive managed to get several dates and be myself with women but its when they want me to go with them to clubs/bars or hangout with their friends that i backout. eventually, after declining so often, they start to call less and less. i dont have problems holding/starting conversations anymore or initianting things. i suppose a guy my age who isnt into the social scene is not what women are looking for


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## mindfulgirl (May 7, 2007)

I met my now husband, dated for 5 years, got married, and now we've been together a total of 8 years, but I wasn't dignosed until a few months after our wedding (a lot of crap hit the fan then - personally, not in our relationship) and by that time, he was stuck with me...LOL...just kidding...but I never had major anxiety issues until after our wedding and now, learning about this illness together has strengthened our relationship and he is a huge rock for me while I go through this. If I had to start out by dating and marrying now, there's no way in hell I could do it! I feel lucky that things happened the way they did. Although I'd trade away my anxiety in a heartbeat...


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## pjam376 (Jun 11, 2007)

I think it's a lot easier for women than men. Most guys with SA who sit in the corner probably rarely date. While a female sitting in the corner might get approached often enough.

It's just the way it is.

If you live in an area where there are more than a few people, a female will probably be approached and asked out more often than not. Guys rarely get asked out by a female. So if a guy can't approach a girl, it means he probably isn't dating much. And if you don't date much, you can't build relationships.

I think the one poster's relationships might not always work out because of how you act, not just because of SA. If you never leave your house or live in an area where there are only 1000 people, then it makes sense. But if you are attractive as you say, most guys overlook Quiet girls. Maybe they aren't always the best bf material, but you never know. 

If guys aren't even approaching you, I have to assume you live in an area where everybody knows you already or your one of those girls who just sound Bit###Hy when a guy comes over to them. I don't know. I know from my experience, girls who are quiet don't have the same problems dating as guys who are quiet.

I mean you say you are intelligent and then go and bash other people who might be book smart or have no common sense. You say you went out with a guy who had SA, but you then proceed to say he had jealousy issues and other issues. I don't know you, but so far you already put down a group of people and some guy who did have SA but you said had issues. Putting everybody else down isn't going to win you many friends, especially if you don't talk that much to begin with.

I think in the grand scheme of things, people with SA or without SA, have to realize relationships aren't easy. They take work. They take time. They take compassion. And they take compromise.

If you aren't willing to compromise, your relationships will probably end unless you or your partner is a lap dog.

I think the problem when two SA people get together is that many times people with SA don't have the confidence or social skills. So maybe they fear losing the person, maybe they become too attached, maybe they get jealous too easily. And in the end, most people don't like being suffocated in a relationship.

But just like anything, if you rarely date, it's going to be hard to find out who you like and how you act in a relationship. If you date once a year, you probably will come off as desperate or too attached too quick.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

Jeez, the only girlfriend I've had was in 6th grade and that only lasted a week. It's not so bad in a way; from what I see, most relationships at my age don't go very far and involve so much drama. I still wish I had GF, though.


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## WineKitty (Nov 26, 2004)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



pjam376 said:


> I think it's a lot easier for women than men.


No its not, that is not true, sorry to just blurt that out but I have heard this argument before. It is not "easier" to be a female with SA than a guy. Some people with SA have relationships and marry, it has nothing to do with gender.


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## Lonelyguy (Nov 8, 2003)

This is by far the area I've been hardest hit with SA. I'm almost 32 and never been on a date in my life. I haven't experienced anything with the opposite sex, I've never even touched a woman in any way except a formal hand shake. My anxiety is so severe around women I can't even make eye contact. I actually go out of my way to avoid women because it causes me so much anxiety. For example: If I'm out shopping and there's a younger woman working at the checkout lane, I'll actually find a different checker even if it means standing in line. Or if I see a pretty girl walking down an aisle I will automatically move to a different aisle to avoid running into her. I get so nervous and flustered there is no other way I can deal with it.
This has had devestating emotional effects on me. I'm starved for love and companionship and I want a relationship so badly but I feel like I have a better chance of winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning both in the same day.


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## AJFA88 (Jun 16, 2007)

yeah i wonder this too. how does a person with SA manage to get married and compromised? to me its either because:

1). the other person also has anxiety disorder
2). the person is deep in love with you, understands and helps you cope with it, which is VERY rare.
3). your anxiety started after you were already in a relationship
4). you are good looking that girls would make constant moves on you
5). your anxiety is not strong enough to hold you back from dating.


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## WineKitty (Nov 26, 2004)

Auron said:


> yeah i wonder this too. how does a person with SA manage to get married and compromised? to me its either because:
> 
> 1). the other person also has anxiety disorder
> 2). the person is deep in love with you, understands and helps you cope with it, which is VERY rare.
> ...


I dont really know, I am married and my husband has anxiety issues so that fits one of your listed reasons. I think also my husband does love me very much, he understands me as no one ever has.

But he is my SECOND husband, and I didnt meet him until I was 32. My first husband DID NOT HAVE any kind of social anxiety whatsoever, and he was not very supportive either....I have had relationships in my life, some of us seem to and some of us dont. Not really sure how you can nail it down to any one single thing....

and I experience a lot of the things Lonelyguy lists all the time, but with people, not just the opposite sex. I know all too well what its like to practice avoidance, I do it all the time.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



Penny said:


> pjam376 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's a lot easier for women than men.
> ...


penny i love you but i have to disagree with you. just look at the members on this forum. more females than males have been/are in a relationship or are married than males. im not saying that finding a relationship is easier for women, anxiety wise. but because men are supposed to be the ones to seek out the partner, women have more of a chance of being in a relationship than men


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## Nihlanth (Sep 1, 2004)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



Gumaro said:


> Penny said:
> 
> 
> > pjam376 said:
> ...


Well said Gumaro.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Let's just agree that it's easier for a woman with SA to get into a relationship than it is for a man, but that compared to women without SA, women with SA may have a harder time finding happy long-lasting relationships.

Whether or not women "have it easier" comes down to the question: "Is it better to have dated a couple of / many times and break up unhappy, or to have never had any physical intimacy, dated, or ever had someone express romantic interest in you in your entire life?"


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## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

I agree that women in general have an easier time getting initial attention from potential male partners. That doesn't mean that dating itself is any easier for women, not in the long run, anyway. 
Personally, I doubt I could ever date anyone, even if someone asked me out (hilarious notion). I don't think I could tolerate the situation because of the severity of my anxiety. Regardless, us hopelessly unattractive women are probably screwed, anyway (not literally _screwed_, because I wouldn't be complaining right now). Well, I guess there's always gigolos and latex dolls as a last resort.

Many men do get approached, though, right? I'm asking, because I don't go out into the world, and I honestly don't know whether they do or not. My brother gets random women coming up to him when he goes out stuffing their phone numbers into his pockets, so it can't be a totally off the wall occurence for an average guy who goes out often, I would think. Of course, most of these women are who he describes as "pit bulls" or other classy and endearing terms.

Anyway, to pull this back on topic, SA has left me unable to pursue friendships and romantic relationships. I don't know if I could ever be comfortable enough around another person to let him/her get close to me. I'm too afraid of being rejected and humiliated. I often yearn for that sort of closeness with someone, anyone, but I simply won't let my guard down at all. Also my face looks like the dirty sole of a foot. That doesn't help.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

"The dirty sole of a foot"? Where do you come up with this sh*t? hehe
Oh my...and being screwed, literally, means nothing, especially when the dude doesn't want a relationship. Yeah, I could wait around for someone who actually wants one, but I'll probably just die an old, horny lady and that's a nasty thought.


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## WineKitty (Nov 26, 2004)

Drella said:


> I agree that women in general have an easier time getting initial attention from potential male partners. That doesn't mean that dating itself is any easier for women, not in the long run, anyway.


Well said Drella and this is what I meant. Just because women get attention more doesnt make RELATIONSHIPS any easier. Frankly, I have never been comfortable with some idiot coming up to me, leering at me, trying to look down my shirt, and make conversation.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Drella said:


> Many men do get approached, though, right? I'm asking, because I don't go out into the world, and I honestly don't know whether they do or not. My brother gets random women coming up to him when he goes out stuffing their phone numbers into his pockets, so it can't be a totally off the wall occurence for an average guy who goes out often, I would think. Of course, most of these women are who he describes as "pit bulls" or other classy and endearing terms.


I don't want to sound like I know your brother better than you, but guys who have those "pitbulls" approaching them like they do your brother are either very popular socially or simply that good-looking (or both).

I would say that no, the average guy is not approached by women much at all. I am 23 years old, and although I suffer from SA, I do my best to mask it. I don't think I am that unattractive. I see plenty of guys who don't look any different than me who have rather stunning girls hanging off their arms. I have worked in a mall for almost 4 years now, and I have never once been approached by a female.


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## scairy (Sep 18, 2005)

I don't know your track record looks pretty impressive to me and I'm not kidding (to original poster). I'd say it makes all of the above an impossibility for me, yet for some reason my greatest desires involve all of the above yet based on my recordless track record of being with pretty much no one you would arrive at the conclusion that the above would be the furthest thing from my desires. But I think it is related to wanting what you can't have; do I really want it or is it just because I can't have it?


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



Gumaro said:


> penny i love you but i have to disagree with you. just look at the members on this forum. more females than males have been/are in a relationship or are married than males. im not saying that finding a relationship is easier for women, anxiety wise. but because men are supposed to be the ones to seek out the partner, women have more of a chance of being in a relationship than men


Let's just get this straight.

because men are supposed to be the ones to seek out the partner, *attractive* women have more of a chance of being in a relationship than men.

If you're an unattractive woman, you aren't approached. At all. And nothing's ****ing easy.


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## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

PGVan said:


> I don't want to sound like I know your brother better than you, but guys who have those "pitbulls" approaching them like they do your brother are either very popular socially or simply that good-looking (or both).


My brother only has three friends and quite apparent cerebral palsy, but he's decent enough looking. He goes out to bars and stuff quite a lot, though. He puts himself into social situations frequently. Since all of his friends except for one are girls, that may affect why women more readily approach him when he's out. I don't know anything about it, honestly.. I'm just making a simple observation about my brother, and I'm not attempting to imply or assume that his experiences are shared by all men, or even a lot of men. I was just curious about it.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Gumaro said:


> people's views on who is attractive vary.


Very true, but what I'm saying is that just because you're a woman, it doesn't mean that you are approached by men.

I don't like being excluded from my gender because I don't fit a stereotype.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

blah. Stupid computer.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



libbyberk83 said:


> Gumaro said:
> 
> 
> > penny i love you but i have to disagree with you. just look at the members on this forum. more females than males have been/are in a relationship or are married than males. im not saying that finding a relationship is easier for women, anxiety wise. but because men are supposed to be the ones to seek out the partner, women have more of a chance of being in a relationship than men
> ...


people's views on who is attractive vary.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*

Wow my computer really isn't getting along with this website today.

It shows the above post to jump 2 posts behind of where it's supposed to be. :con


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## IcedOver (Feb 26, 2007)

I wish women would approach me. The only reason people I don't know talk to me in public is to yell to startle me when I'm walking on the side of the road.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

Drella said:


> Many men do get approached, though, right?


Nope.



Drella said:


> I'm asking, because I don't go out into the world, and I honestly don't know whether they do or not. My brother gets random women coming up to him when he goes out stuffing their phone numbers into his pockets, so it can't be a totally off the wall occurence for an average guy who goes out often, I would think. Of course, most of these women are who he describes as "pit bulls" or other classy and endearing terms.


That is extremely, extremely, extremely weird and unusual. Not typical.


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## embers (Dec 19, 2006)

...


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## apie (Jun 24, 2007)

> "so I totally cannot understand how anyone with SA can succeed in that area, especcially get married and stay married"


I push myself into dating girls/woman, even though I am very anxious and often feel more like going home and throw up. Why? Because I know that once I really get to know someone and really trust someone I can feel comfortable and can enjoy the relationship. This usually takes me quite some time (couple of months) and it is really very hard, but I know that in the end there is so much to be gained. I've had three fairly long relationships so far, so I know the attitude towards my anxiety (which is pretty extreme) has paid of.

Since you're 38 already (28 myself) and your SA is really affecting you, you should consider seeing a doctor or someone with expertise in this field. Meditation and hypnosis have helped me a great deal in becoming a little bit more relaxed. Like you, I am not unattractive, I consider myself to be fairly smart and I know people (women) think I am a nice and funny guy to be around, but when woman get close I just feel like running home! Still, I don't. It means pushing myself to the limits, going to the bathroom and meditating for short periods, etc, but it can and has paid of in the past and I hope it will pay of again. "Rewards await the brave" is my new motto. I am going to have this printed on a t-shirt once I manage to 'hook' a new woman.


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## apie (Jun 24, 2007)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



Little Miss Scare-All said:


> I can never see myself getting married due to SA & not being "normal".
> *I've only been asked once and apparently it was just a joke.* :sigh .


Is that you in your avatar?


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## mranonhello (Nov 13, 2003)

Is it just me or did libby change her picture once again into one that makes her look even more grumpy than before? Are you still trying to convince the guys here that you aren't good looking by purposely taking bad pictures. Just because you refuse to believe something doesn't make it true. 
:yes


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## Futures (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



Gumaro said:


> ....its when they want me to go with them to clubs/bars or hangout with their friends that i backout. eventually, after declining so often, they start to call less and less......i suppose a guy my age who isnt into the social scene is not what women are looking for


That's part of the reason why dating seems so out of reach for me. Socially I have *nothing* in common with women. Every girl I've ever been attracted to has always been the type that likes to go out, party, etc. That doesn't mesh well with my interests, which are basically sitting at home playing guitar or browsing the net.


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## scairy (Sep 18, 2005)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



libbyberk83 said:


> Gumaro said:
> 
> 
> > penny i love you but i have to disagree with you. just look at the members on this forum. more females than males have been/are in a relationship or are married than males. im not saying that finding a relationship is easier for women, anxiety wise. but because men are supposed to be the ones to seek out the partner, women have more of a chance of being in a relationship than men
> ...


Realize as stupid as it sounds women possess a natural beauty though maybe my mind is twisted  Some women might have to try harder to make themselves look like what our culture in general finds attractive but it doesn't mean that they have no chance. You have to find what look works for you fits your face body etc. Me for example with long hair = nasty. Me with ultra short hair = below average looking. Me with certain clothing doesn't look good etc.


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## scairy (Sep 18, 2005)

Drella said:


> PGVan said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want to sound like I know your brother better than you, but guys who have those "pitbulls" approaching them like they do your brother are either very popular socially or simply that good-looking (or both).
> ...


Wow your brother has what some would call game! Something some claim I have but I truly don't. It's funny my siblings have people all over them and I haven't even kissed. Maybe I'm adopted :lol


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



radfaraf said:


> Is it just me or did libby change her picture once again into one that makes her look even more grumpy than before? Are you still trying to convince the guys here that you aren't good looking by purposely taking bad pictures. Just because you refuse to believe something doesn't make it true.
> :yes


Libby changes her avatar every day.

Are you going to believe the maybe two guys on this site who mistakenly think I'm cute, or me, the one whom you speak of?

As I said, I don't like to be excluded from my gender simply because I don't fit a stereotype. If someone makes a comment generalizing "women" as being attractive, then you can bet I'll make a comment. I tend to be annoying.


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

> How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriage


For one I don't know what I'm doing. And I also seem to scare girls I'm interested in away. :cry


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



libbyberk83 said:


> Libby changes her avatar every day.
> 
> Are you going to believe the maybe two guys on this site who mistakenly think I'm cute, or me, the one whom you speak of?


There are more than two. But I am the only one that matters. :b :lol

You are hot and attractive, but it would be better if you felt the same way about yourself.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

You're sweet, but this is not up for discussion.

Sorry for dragging things off topic.

Please people, continue on.


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## IcedOver (Feb 26, 2007)

My problems have made me never even TRY to ask a girl out. Some of you have tried and had problems or been flat out unsuccessful but I've never even tried. As a result I can't say for sure whether I'm a complete screw-up in the romantic department. If I tried and failed I'd know for sure I have major problems in that area.


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## SAgirl (Nov 15, 2003)

I don't have a relationship due to it. I'm mostly isolated and right now I'm unemployed. 

My last two relationships failed due to my SA partly. My longest 2 relationships lasted 18 months each. I see myself as flawed and I am so afraid of letting someone in that I tend to put a wall up. 

I honestly believe that the only type of people that I would want to date now are those who have the same interests but at the same time were dealing with Generalized Social Anxiety (Social Anxiety in all social situations) as well. Those who have never had it just don't understand it at all.


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## path0gen (Jun 28, 2006)

> Those who have never had it just don't understand it at all.


But they _think_ they do and that's the rub. Generalized Anxiety Disorder(also my diagnosis) is so vague and subject to interpretation that it doesn't get nearly as much attention as specialized anxieties. For example, my significant other went through a bad spell in her late teens and most likely has a much better understanding of depression than I do. Her situation ultimately resulted in a suicide attempt and a short stint at the local mental facility. She proclaims to know a great deal about anxiety and I believe her. But this is also a person who simply LOVES to get out and party with people, hang in crowded venues and waits tables for a living. However much she believes she can empathyze with me, based on whatever medications she has experience with and however uncomfortable she's been in a social setting, she just doesn't seem to understand why any and every social experience is difficult for me.

I have similar empathy problems with people who are merely 'shy' or 'a little nervous'. They only understand my anxiety on the most basic of levels and surely couldn't possibly comprehend what it's like to feel as though you're having a panic attack all of the time. It's been a point of contention in just about all of my relationships but I can't say I'd be any better off were I to be involved with someone with a similar diagnosis, though. I have strong emotional characteristics that compensate for her where she is weak and vice versa. How would it benefit two people with similar fears and strengths to be together? That's the basis of a good friendship, not a long-term relationship.


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## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



pjam376 said:


> I think it's a lot easier for women than men.


 I HATE when people say that! Not ****ing true.


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## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

vincebs said:


> Let's just agree that it's easier for a woman with SA to get into a relationship than it is for a man, but that compared to women without SA, women with SA may have a harder time finding happy long-lasting relationships.
> 
> Whether or not women "have it easier" comes down to the question: "Is it better to have dated a couple of / many times and break up unhappy, or to have never had any physical intimacy, dated, or ever had someone express romantic interest in you in your entire life?"


 :agree


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## path0gen (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



Little Miss Scare-All said:


> pjam376 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's a lot easier for women than men.
> ...


I have to disagree. The traits that women typically find most attractive in men are adequate self-esteem, confidence and aggressiveness. None of which your standard male SAer has much experience with. Women, on the other hand, can get away with being overly shy, introverted and, for lack of a better word, "needy" and most men will observe this type of behavior as cute and appealing. I'm 31 and I've NEVER encountered a woman that displays the same anxious behavior that I am capable of. I doubt that many have. Whether you choose to acknowledge the social edge you have because of your sex, I assure you that it exists and that we are intimidated, regardless of your disposition. And I just don't understand why this has to be iterated upon thousands and thousands of time from men of all ages, ethnicities and backgrounds before you'll believe it.

To put it quite simply, in a traditional situation the man is expected to ask the woman out. I know it's 2007 and all but this is still common practice. Much more common than a woman asking a guy out, anyway. In this situation, the worst the woman has to worry about is how to decline. The man, on the other hand, has to worry about complete rejection, which does nothing for one's self-esteem. And now back to the women, the rejector, who gets a nice little ego boost at the expense of the propositioner. If you can give me an example or two that is both commonplace and contradictory to this hypothetical, please do.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

I guess my experiences don't count


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## path0gen (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



libbyberk83 said:


> It doesn't matter what is true or not.
> 
> The arrogance of males makes it near impossible for them to see the other side of an issue, especially one they cannot experience.
> 
> ...


And then we have women, who are also incapable of seeing the other side of an issue, one they cannot experience. You can't tell me that my reasoning is invalid because I'm not a woman but then proceed to explain that you understand perfectly well how it is for a man.

I'm sorry that your dating endeavors haven't been up to par. But my example was specific to current dating ettiquette and how it pertains to a man propositioning a woman, what steps are traditionally necessary to make this happen, the potential results and how each party is affected by said results.

So let me ask you, if you were to be approached by someone you weren't attracted to, would you go out with them anyway or politely decline? Would the proposition itself serve to boost your ego? Would YOU ever approach a man and ask him out? Because that's largely a part of my argument; that you're not required to do so and we typically are.

This isn't about you, personally, so spare me the "boohoo, I've never been asked out" crap. If you can't discuss a topic objectively, without becoming angry, defensive and assuming it's all about you, you're not fit to participate.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

blah.


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## Mambo Mick (Jun 13, 2007)

let's just agree that SA sucks for BOTH male AND female.
And that it affects men and women differently, since we are chemically and emotionally different.
"How much worse" one gender has it than the other isn't really all that relevant. We need to concentrate on how both male and female can cope with it better.


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



Mambo Mick said:


> let's just agree that SA sucks for BOTH male AND female.
> And that it affects men and women differently, since we are chemically and emotionally different.
> "How much worse" one gender has it than the other isn't really all that relevant. We need to concentrate on how both male and female can cope with it better.


we've tried that. doesnt work


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



Mambo Mick said:


> let's just agree that SA sucks for BOTH male AND female.
> And that it affects men and women differently, since we are chemically and emotionally different.
> "How much worse" one gender has it than the other isn't really all that relevant. We need to concentrate on how both male and female can cope with it better.


I apologize. I'm done now.


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## path0gen (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



libbyberk83 said:


> I was implying that stereotyping, generalizing, what have you doesn't do anyone any good. Who the @#%$ cares if in general, it's easier for men or women? What are you going to do with your statistic once you get it? For what purpose are you making your argument?
> 
> If I may remind you, the subject is _How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriage ?_ This is speaking of personal experiences. Why throw an argument for a stereotype in? Just to make people feel like crap if their own experiences contradict it? If this is so, congratulations. You did it.
> 
> ...


I didn't introduce the stereotype, I merely commented on what someone had already posted. Have you been following the thread or did you just decide to hop on board right when I posted? Your sarcasm and condescending attitude are not appreciated. And, at this point, it's really no surprise to me why you've had such a difficult time with men. Quit being so damn bitter and cynical. The world isn't out to get you, I promise.


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## WineKitty (Nov 26, 2004)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*

How MANY TIMES is this going to be debated on SAS?????? And it always turns into an argument that gets the thread locked, as its getting already.



path0gen said:


> Little Miss Scare-All said:
> 
> 
> > pjam376 said:
> ...


I dont believe your assessment of what women "typically" find most attractive in men is accurate, esp among women with SA. I personally would not want someone "aggressive", that would have me running the opposite direction. Women CANNOT get away with being shy, introverted, and WITHOUT FRIENDS and needy like you seem to think they can. I have not found that most men find a "needy" woman appealing. You seem to be making your own experience the standard, and that is just not the case.



> I'm 31 and I've NEVER encountered a woman that displays the same anxious behavior that I am capable of. I doubt that many have. Whether you choose to acknowledge the social edge you have because of your sex, I assure you that it exists and that we are intimidated, regardless of your disposition. And I just don't understand why this has to be iterated upon thousands and thousands of time from men of all ages, ethnicities and backgrounds before you'll believe it.


 Well I am 38 and I have never seen ANYONE that has the same anxieties that I have IRL, and that even includes my husband as my anxieties are admittedly worse. The closest I have come is SAS, which is why I am around here so much I guess. You might perceive it as a "social edge" to be a woman but in my case one of two things have happened: Either (A) The negative body language and negative vibes an SA woman puts out drives away attention or (B) men approach and it sends anxiety into overdrive. Just because a guy comes up to doesnt mean witty words just come to a girl and her anxiety just magically drops away.

And alot of times the attention is the WRONG kind of attention, which I personally have found demeaning rather than complimentary.



> And now back to the women, the rejector, who gets a nice little ego boost at the expense of the propositioner..


 This is OBVIOUSLY a statement based on some bitter personal experience you had as it is NOT THE NORM at all, at least among women with SA.


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## embers (Dec 19, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



> And, at this point, it's really no surprise to me why you've had such a difficult time with men. Quit being so damn bitter and cynical.


Bitter and cynical in libby's case might be translated to expecting more from a man than he is capable of, and being sorely disappointed.


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## path0gen (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



embers said:


> > And, at this point, it's really no surprise to me why you've had such a difficult time with men. Quit being so damn bitter and cynical.
> 
> 
> Bitter and cynical in libby's case might be translated to expecting more from a man than he is capable of, and being sorely disappointed.


Perpetual generalizations. If this is how Libby thinks then all men must be horrible, self-centered beings, eager to disappoint. It's unadvisable to use generalizations in order to work against generalizations, which are the apparent downfall of this topic or will be shortly. Of course, if it's our intention here to simply relay personal experiences and only have the option of responding positively (i.e. "I agree!"), then I'm probably on the wrong topic. You see, I like to try figuring things out. If it means I have to build a model male and female to illustrate an example, I'll do so. Even if it means offending a few people in the process in order to gain a little perspective.

I don't create cliche's, stereotypes and generalizations. I merely subscribe to some that I've found to be somewhat accurate. Individual experiences may and will vary but, in terms of analyzing anything, anything at all and expecting to have some sort of intelligent conversation, I find these tools to be 100% necessary. Otherwise it's just going to be Libby, who has an apparent grudge against men for not paying attention to her versus pathogen, who has a pretty good idea that men aren't the only ones to blame here...over and over and over again until the thread is full of defensive, hostile posting.

And now back to my original argument...the bottom line is that "the people", and by that I include the majority of English-speaking cultures, including SAD folks, alcoholics, born again Christians, old people, young people, MOST PEOPLE IN GENERAL and so on and so forth--they subscribe to old ettiquette that stipulates it's a man's place to ask a woman out. If we can agree on that, it's a good start. Because most of everything else I said, including male-specific anxiety leading up to and including the actual proposition and subsequent reaction are arguably--yes, quite arguably--just a bit more nerve wracking than standing there and being asked out.

As a side note, being asked out, however you decide to react, should most certainly be flattering. Publicly stating that it isn't will do nothing to inspire the socially challenged from taking that difficult step.


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## Mayflower 2000 (Nov 11, 2003)

I can see why there may be the opinion of 'women have it easier', and see the reasons for that opinion. But I think also, and this may be part of the reason why libby spoke up, was that it sounds misleading. For one thing, everything is so varied for each individual patient, that generalizations about how 'hard' it is for one group or another to live with SA is just speculation that may not have any factual basis or educational application. There are all sorts of little variables too that can so easily be unaccounted for, for each person and each gender. Another is, "having it easier" is like saying poor Ghanians have it 'easier' than say Zimbabwaeans. Both are stuck with a difficult situation that they didn't ask to be put in. Especially statements like "women have it a LOT easier" are just really unfair and have no real basis, besides maybe a biased viewpoint of a male.

I says lets try to be a bit more understanding, give each other leeway. We make mistakes in communication, but that is no reason to keep insulting each other.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Generalizations exist, but we must never forget about individual people, who may defy them.

Although I agree that in general, women with SA have a different experience than men with SA do, there are always a couple men who have experiences similar to the women, and a few women who have experiences similar to the men. Or they may have experiences not covered by the generalizations. So although a generalization may be true to 98%, it is unfair to group the remaining 2% with them and apply the generalization to them as well.

path0gen, I have seen women with social anxiety worse than mine, and some to the degree where their life has been more severely impacted by it than mine. They seem to be much rarer than guys limited to the same extent by SA, but they do exist.


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## embers (Dec 19, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*

[/quote]

Perpetual generalizations. If this is how Libby thinks then all men must be horrible, self-centered beings, eager to disappoint. It's unadvisable to use generalizations in order to work against generalizations, which are the apparent downfall of this topic or will be shortly. [/quote]

I take back the generalization, semantics anyway. Maybe many men in her experience have disappointed her.


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## path0gen (Jun 28, 2006)

vicente said:


> Generalizations exist, but we must never forget about individual people, who may defy them.
> 
> Although I agree that in general, women with SA have a different experience than men with SA do, there are always a couple men who have experiences similar to the women, and a few women who have experiences similar to the men. Or they may have experiences not covered by the generalizations. So although a generalization may be true to 98%, it is unfair to group the remaining 2% with them and apply the generalization to them as well.
> 
> path0gen, I have seen women with social anxiety worse than mine, and some to the degree where their life has been more severely impacted by it than mine. They seem to be much rarer than guys limited to the same extent by SA, but they do exist.


I do not deny the existance of this minority. In fact, I may represent a walking condradiction to my own arguments as associating with and being successful with members of the opposite sex has never been a problem. However, people seem to be comparing something like "Women have it easier than men when it comes to dating" to "All men are pigs". They're both cliche's but one greatly resembles the opinion of someone who has had very bad experiences with men, while the other sounds as though it's coming from someone who has thought about each sex's respective role in the dating process and come to a conclusion. I encourage the 2%(or whatever the actual minority is) to speak up. Their contribution is as welcome as anyone else's here. On the other hand, if one can't express his/herself without the use of profanity and a nasty passive-aggressive attitude, I have a hard time placing any value on what they have to say.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

These threads always start with good intentions. They almost always end badly. Kind of like life, I guess. Sorry, I'm in a foul mood.

In between the beginning and the end, in almost every case, a guy says its harder for men with SA than women. This thread is a perfect example of why we shouldn't make those pronouncements. I don't know why guys say this, other than to incite or to justify their own disappointment. Regardless, once we start down this path, women almost always start off responding fairly calmly, and then get progressively angrier with each successively more strident defense from men. The men at this point understandably feel baited, and we're off. 

It always goes this way. I can't think of an exception. 

Please don't anyone think I'm being gallant. I don't do gallant, and libbyberk83 (since her posts have been singled out) doesn't need defending. But path0gen, you've repeatedly appealed to your own authority in this thread, citing your experience and observations as superior evidence to anyone else's, and labeling their contributions as cliche, passive aggressive, bitter, and cynical. All because you've been paying attention. Even if we accept your authority on the issue, its not exactly helping. And oddly enough, helping is the goal here.

If I were female, I think sitting and waiting for someone to approach me might make me anxious. Extremely. But whether asking or being asked is the tougher role to play is irrelevant on this board, in this community, where the common ground is individual struggle with this disorder.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Well a problem is that most of us haven't had the opportunity to experience the pains of both sides. So it's hard to compare in a way. Perhaps for men it is better to have dated a couple of / many times and break up unhappy, than to never had any physical intimacy, dated, or ever had someone express romantic interest in you in your entire life, whereas for women it's the other way around.


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## path0gen (Jun 28, 2006)

> But path0gen, you've repeatedly appealed to your own authority in this thread, citing your experience and observations as superior evidence to anyone else's, and labeling their contributions as cliche, passive aggressive, bitter, and cynical. All because you've been paying attention. Even if we accept your authority on the issue, its not exactly helping. And oddly enough, helping is the goal here.


Doesn't everyone do this? I mean, opinions are based on personal experience and individual thought methodology. So everyone is going to think they are an authority on whatever they comment on. However, I don't recall stating that anything I posted was "superior" evidence to anyone else's. I merely tried to justify it to the best of my ability. I even admitted my own use of cliches and stereotypes and tried to explain why I thought they were appropriate. Bitter, cynical and passive-aggressive behavior is storming on to a thread, posting something highly defensive and angry and then stomping off. I feel like I'm repeating myself here and I'm getting a little tired of trying to explain my responses. If anyone would like to argue my logic, please do so. Otherwise, ignore me and my posts and feel free to NOT respond. At the very least, though, do me the courtesy of refraining from telling me what I'm saying. I think it's fair to say that I AM the end-all, be-all authority on my own thoughts.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

I think you found a raw nerve in this thread and you cooly poked it with your logic stick. Tsk, tsk. And I appreciate your concern for my time, but I find your posts interesting. I know, go figure.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

I apologize for my anger. 

This is how your posts came across to me:

Men are trying to prove that females with social anxiety have it easier in the area of romance so they can feel like either the victor or the sufferer of the larger impediment that they as men have to face by achieving a relationship. Whereas someone like me has no right to b!tc# and moan because I can't even overcome the "lesser" barrier I have as a woman. 

Damn it, I'm late for work. 

:kiss


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

*Re: re: How does SA affect your dating/relationships/marriag*



libbyberk83 said:


> I apologize for my anger.
> 
> This is how your posts came across to me:
> 
> ...


I can admit I do this sometimes, sans the insinuation that women have no right at all to complain. The fact of the matter is, neither of us has it easy and we need to be there to support each other through our difficulties.


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