# Latest experiment



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

60 mg Memantine
7,5 MG alpha methyl tryptamine
5 mg Nebivolol
8 mg Candesartan
8 mg galantamine twice a day (as a nootropic and further help my ADHD, its also a positive allostic modulator of the A7 receptors).
2 gram piracetam
1 gram ALCAR

I'm soon readding dexedrine, i'm hoping the nebivolol and candesartan will take care of the anxiety caused by combined NE release of AMT and AMP.

Update: (cope from last post)


> Currently im taking:
> 
> 60 mg memantine
> 8 mg candesartan
> ...


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> 60 mg Memantine
> 7,5 MG alpha methyl tryptamine
> 5 mg Nebivolol
> 8 mg Candesartan
> ...


Hi crazy, nice experiment! I'll wait your impression, 'cose how you know we deal with the same "deamon". What do you think about DMAE ? There are good feedback for ADHD.

I'm using at now:

1200 mg piracetam twice a day
1000 mg l-glutamine twice a day
1000 mg DHA+EPA twice a day
2,5 mg selegiline
1 mg diazepam before bed.

Seems to help very much for cognition, but i'm not very sodisfied for motivation (selegiline is not good) What is your impression? I'm thinking to add rhodiola to cover the "dopaminergic" way. All advices are welcome, I need to study so social anxiety is not my big problem at now, I want get rid of that adhd. :\


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## mark555666 (May 1, 2008)

I would take Carvedilol instead of those anti blood pressure medications you are taking. -It releases potent anti oxidants -carvedilol does not up-regulate β- receptors


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Freesix88 said:


> I would take Carvedilol instead of those anti blood pressure medications you are taking. -It releases potent anti oxidants -carvedilol does not up-regulate β- receptors


Nebivolol is better it increases testosterone, doesn not impair physical activity, and lacks all side effects of most other beta blockers. Nevi also has antioxidant activity.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnG said:


> Hi crazy, nice experiment! I'll wait your impression, 'cose how you know we deal with the same "deamon". What do you think about DMAE ? There are good feedback for ADHD.
> 
> I'm using at now:
> 
> ...


I forgot, i'm also taking 2 gram piracetam and 1 gram ALCAR a day.

For true ADHD only a real stimulant can help, even ritalin or something, most other stuff wont help much.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I got completely tolerant to AMT due to cross tolerance induced by MDMA, a few day break will resolve that but i'm testing wheter 60mg of memantine can ACTIVELY REVERSE tolerance WHILE i keep on taking it.


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## MBL (Oct 5, 2010)

*Bah*

CrazyMed:

What is *Galantamine* like? I was going to mix it with something like *Alpha GPC* to get lucid dreams and as nootropic. It (*LIKE EVERYTHING ON EARTH*) is not for sale in Canada.

What are the effects of *Memantine* like?

I'd like to start a nootropic system.

thx


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

It just gives me extra clarity and energy, improves my cognition, there's no need for another choline source if you take galantamine, only take 1 thing at the time wich increases acetylcholine.

Memantine dramatically reduces my OCD but for the rest it feels like a placebo pill, it sits there in the background.


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## MBL (Oct 5, 2010)

I might order Galantamine. Do you find it expensive?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

MBL said:


> I might order Galantamine. Do you find it expensive?


Its dirt cheap, atleast if you dont live in canada i gues...


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## MBL (Oct 5, 2010)

*Memantine*

Lil page on memantine.
http://www.memantine.com/en/


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> 60 mg Memantine
> 7,5 MG alpha methyl tryptamine
> 5 mg Nebivolol
> 8 mg Candesartan
> ...


There is some connection between NE and DA ? A big load of NE how effect the dopamine system ? :roll


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnG said:


> There is some connection between NE and DA ? A big load of NE how effect the dopamine system ? :roll


Too much NE is anxiety.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I moved to 80 mg memantine + 20 gram piracetam for a week, as an experiment, dont try at home kids.


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## MBL (Oct 5, 2010)

crazyMed:

Whoa, that's a significant dose there.

crazyMed, are you noticing changes?

How does the memantine effect you? Do you get light-headed or anything? What do you think are the benifits of such a memantine dosage?

I am on a certian medication which I'd love to reduce the tolerance to...
Plus I am interested in nootropic effect (of memantine)...


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I moved to 80 mg memantine + 20 gram piracetam for a week, as an experiment, dont try at home kids.


Piracetam can be useful to lower your usally dex dose, because it tend to amplify the effect of stims. Piracetam, memantine, and amp\mdpv will be my next ADHD killing experiment. Good look crazy! Hope your experiment will work fine


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

MBL said:


> crazyMed:
> 
> Whoa, that's a significant dose there.
> 
> ...


I'm experimenting wheter memantine is capable of ACTIVELY reversing tolerance, basicly putting its power to the test and see wheter i can become tolerance proof for 100%

Without the piracetam i would get very disociated and dizzy from the memantine, but piracetam prevents that, some ppl claim it works wonders at high doses but that can be just mania, i wanted to test out 20 gram, the memantine should keep my mood stable.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnG said:


> Piracetam can be useful to lower your usally dex dose, because it tend to amplify the effect of stims. Piracetam, memantine, and amp\mdpv will be my next ADHD killing experiment. Good look crazy! Hope your experiment will work fine


Thx!

Right now i'm still in the initial memantine inhibition phase so dont feel much from my dex and AMT, should be in a couple of days.

I hope this combo will work great for my ADHD! I want to go to university next year!


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## MBL (Oct 5, 2010)

*Supplements*

Hmmm.

Well I am very interested in trying a new daily supplement routine.

1st thing I am worried about is drug interaction.

I am on a lot of pharmaceuticals right now and wouldn't want a drug interaction...

I am interested in memantine, phenibut (2x a week), and maybe some others...

Can you recommend how I start out with memantine and maybe something with it? What benifits do you notice? Can you give any useful information for me? What should I take with it? What you find helpful for various problems (SA, nootropic, reverse addiction, ADD... etc etc)?

I can give you a list of stuff I take in PM.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I would start with 40mg of memantine, it will help a TON with tolerance to various substances, however if your allready tolerant you may need a break first, currently i'm testing wheter at higher doses it can actively reverse tolerance while you keep on taking those substances.

What i found helpfull:
OCD: memantine, AMT and dexedrine
ADD: Dexedrine and AMT
SA: AMT and dexedrin

reverse addiction?


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Thx!
> 
> Right now i'm still in the initial memantine inhibition phase so dont feel much from my dex and AMT, should be in a couple of days.
> 
> I hope this combo will work great for my ADHD! I want to go to university next year!


I'm ADHD (with low depression and SA) and I can ensure you that we can follow university without no problem, because ADHD dont affect cognition or QI , just the damned attention span and the inability to follow a schedule with perseverance.

When I introduced my meds, all went fine. Even if i'm looking for a decent stims ( I change them every week), because dex is not avaible here. :\ I hope that mdpv will help me, with a daily regime.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnG said:


> I'm ADHD (with low depression and SA) and I can ensure you that we can follow university without no problem, because ADHD dont affect cognition or QI , just the damned attention span and the inability to follow a schedule with perseverance.
> 
> When I introduced my meds, all went fine. Even if i'm looking for a decent stims, because dex is not avaible here. :\


I failed EVERY year in highschool, my attention was terrible, i also has ZERO motivation to do my homework, so eventually after keeping failing every year i dropped out, wiht my ADHD i was completely UNABLE to be a good student.

When my attention and motivation is fixed, i can hopefully follow university, wich would also be easier as id be learning about my favorite subjects, pharmacology and all


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## MBL (Oct 5, 2010)

reverse addiction, I just meant to reduce it..

I'm seriously considering memantine, but with the GD customs gestapo here in canada it'll be diffucult...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah it should help with that.

That sucks man


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm on 80mg of memantine a day now to fully test its anti tolerance powers.

So far its still inhibiting amp and AMT, however i kept redosing amp untill i could "breaktrough" and now i get the effects of the normal amt and amp combination, and the interesting part is, NO anxiety AT ALL, looks like the nevibilol and cardesertan are doing its job.

Will keep yall updated.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

hmm with that many medications how can you tell what is working and what isn't? What about the eventual tolerance to all substance through homeostasis, you cant prevent that indefinitely, so what then.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> hmm with that many medications how can you tell what is working and what isn't? What about the eventual tolerance to all substance through homeostasis, you cant prevent that indefinitely, so what then.


Memantine is there to prevent tolerance, i'm testing wheter it can REVERSE tolerance too.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

but can memantine really prevent tolerance to all of those for long... It should only prevent tolerance *temporarily* in select things mainly amphetamines and maybe GHB. Again the point is that it only slows tolerance and does not stop it. Hardly a longterm strategy.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> but can memantine really prevent tolerance to all of those for long... It should only prevent tolerance *temporarily* in select things mainly amphetamines and maybe GHB. Again the point is that it only slows tolerance and does not stop it. Hardly a longterm strategy.


Ive talked with ppl that used it long term, the thing with memantine is that it indeed slows tolerance, but ALSO accelerates reversel of the gained tolerance off a break, so those ppl once amp pooped out only needed a break of 2 days and they where set again for a few months (that was on 40mg a day).

Right now i'm testing wheter 80mg can ACTIVELY reverse tolerance, nmda antagonists upregulate dopamine receptors in the striatum for example so theoretically its possible.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Yeah i have more faith in reversing amphetamine tolerance in comparison to other tolerances amphetamine goes down easier.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Currently im taking:

60 mg memantine
8 mg candesartan
3x 600mg of NAC


Still on a break of everything else, soon will readd:
7,5 mg alpha methyl tryptamine (this is a research chemical, be carefull with it if anyone gets interested, there's no need for it unless you are treatment resistant and there are no options left).
5mg nebivilol (ran out)
3x 5mg dexedrine

(Those are more like nootropics, to aid my ADHD, except selank wich also helps anxiety)
Nicotine
Galantamine
Selank
Piracetam

I have a bad cold and wont restart the amt or amp untill i'm fully recovered, stopped taking them last thursday, will probably make this a weekbreak.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I stopped taking the dexedrine for a while, there's too much euphoria on the amt and dex combo, and i cant get tolerant to the euphoria due to memantine.

AMT is far far superior to amphetamine anyway.

Tomorrow i'm gonna do my first attempt to get the safety data on AMT in my hands, hopefully it will work.


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## Canadian4Life (Sep 27, 2010)

No drug will rewire your brain so it's tolerance stops or reverses completely. The brain is too smart for that. you may be keeping a system from becoming tolerant and effects like these from these alzheimers drugs can hide problems created by the amphetamine. Take breaks and b vitamins for tolerance..the only way


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Canadian4Life said:


> No drug will rewire your brain so it's tolerance stops or reverses completely. The brain is too smart for that. you may be keeping a system from becoming tolerant and effects like these from these alzheimers drugs can hide problems created by the amphetamine. Take breaks and b vitamins for tolerance..the only way


I dont have any tolerance problems mate, breaks i often take, it appears that short 2 day breaks every week are more then sufficient on memantine.

The lack of tolerance is actually also a problem, as i cant appear to get tolerant to the euphoric effect of amp, and the combination of AMT and amp causes too much euphoria to be therapeutic (still without memantine tolerance develops rapidly to all effects including the prosocial effects so thats definatly not an option.)


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## Canadian4Life (Sep 27, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I dont have any tolerance problems mate, breaks i often take, it appears that short 2 day breaks every week are more then sufficient on memantine.
> 
> The lack of tolerance is actually also a problem, as i cant appear to get tolerant to the euphoric effect of amp, and the combination of AMT and amp causes too much euphoria to be therapeutic (still without memantine tolerance develops rapidly to all effects including the prosocial effects so thats definatly not an option.)


That's awesome that this is working for you. How long have you been on it? It's not everyday you hear of a long term solution for amphetamines.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Been on this regime for about 2 months, (amphetamine on and off, as there's just too much euphoria wich is counterproductive) but without memantine tolerance to the euphoric effects develops rapidly, with memantine and a 2 day break every week this doesnt appear to be the case at all.

But i also find regular breaks important, and every week a 2 day break seems to work like a charm.

Now i do gotta stop amphetamine for a while, as there's too much euphoria (paradoxally you hear someone complaining he cant get rhid of the euphoria) it feels great but it is counterproductive for the therapeutic effects and not a good long term solution, thats why i want to lose it.

Taking either AMT or amphetamine would be an option, but i find AMT far better then amp so thats a keeper, i just need an extra push to fix my avoidant behavor, amp provides that but it brings too much euphoria on top of AMT, but i'l figure something out .


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## Canadian4Life (Sep 27, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Been on this regime for about 2 months, (amphetamine on and off, as there's just too much euphoria wich is counterproductive) but without memantine tolerance to the euphoric effects develops rapidly, with memantine and a 2 day break every week this doesnt appear to be the case at all.
> 
> But i also find regular breaks important, and every week a 2 day break seems to work like a charm.
> 
> ...


Yeah most definetly man. You seem to have a good bit of knowledge so try something you think will work best! Seems to me you are starting to get it all together.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Canadian4Life said:


> Yeah most definetly man. You seem to have a good bit of knowledge so try something you think will work best! Seems to me you are starting to get it all together.


Yeah man, and AMT was a great discovery from me, shame its no longer in use, but the safety data on this med is available in differend universities, i'l try to get it. Its a bit experimental but i can safely say that the only side effect i have on this regime is euphoria lol, also i can immediatly stop amphetamine and AMT to take breaks (if i keep my schedual of 2 day breaks on mem every week) then there is barely a withdrawal.

Just as i think those breaks are important, i feel its important that too much euphoria is bad, as it keeps my inside, so i'm not living in a dilusion that this is the way to go.


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## Canadian4Life (Sep 27, 2010)

Amphetamine and AMT does sound interesting but for me I stick with ritalin and that only. It helps my adhd better although dexedrine helps my SA more. I am definetly tolerant to the social effects that ritalin once had. It still helps me socialize but the drive for it is gone. I find 10mg of ritalin and 2-4mg of dilaudid brings back my ritalin euphoria..even better than the first time. I get the dilaudids for my back but they are insane for my social anxiety when used with my ritalin. Not an everyday thing but once in a while to a max of once a week and I haven't had a problem with it yet.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

For some strange reason the only meds that my SA responds too are stimulants. Opiates, alcohol, GHB, benzo's etc all dont do a thing for social anxiety, i beleive this is because of dopaminergic problems wich only stimulants manage to fix (the other stuff does make me not care, wich should counteract confidence issues, but i dont care in the first place, so it doesnt help).

I'm pretty much the only guy on this board that has noticed this, my SA isnt typical.


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## Canadian4Life (Sep 27, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> For some strange reason the only meds that my SA responds too are stimulants. Opiates, alcohol, GHB, benzo's etc all dont do a thing for social anxiety, i beleive this is because of dopaminergic problems wich only stimulants manage to fix (the other stuff does make me not care, wich should counteract confidence issues, but i dont care in the first place, so it doesnt help).
> 
> I'm pretty much the only guy on this board that has noticed this, my SA isnt typical.


I know what you mean I take opiates and benzos but without a stimulant they are useless and cause anxiety. You get anxiety when your dopamine levels aren't high this is defeintly ADHD based like me. You should get that corrected before the SA


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Canadian4Life said:


> I know what you mean I take opiates and benzos but without a stimulant they are useless and cause anxiety. You get anxiety when your dopamine levels aren't high this is defeintly ADHD based like me. You should get that corrected before the SA


Interesting, i also need stimulants before they are capable to work, it does seem that stimulants jumpstart them.

Yeah my ADHD is very severe, but still with amp, opiates or benzo's cant give me the best relief of SA, it seems stimulants are the option in my case atleast, and then i need something to prevent tolerance (wich the 2 day breaks on top of memantine apear to do).


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

nice, just read through the last post here on this interesting dopamine-powered ADHD-destroying trial of yours.


--- bump - keep us posted.  also, when you say 60mg of memantine, is that 60mg every 12 hours or just one dose in the morning? it has a very long half-life, but is prescribed mostly in 12-hour split-doses, so I was just wondering there...

also, you say you take piracetam with it (what dosage currently)? ...and it still retains its tolerance-preventing effects this way? I ask because... whether 2x daily or 1x daily, that's definitely still a hefty dosage of memantine, and piracetam DOES do a great job at reversing its cognitive effects so it becomes more of a 'background' thing...

hope to hear from ya!
-z


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'l copy the last few posts of me on mind and muscle:

Basicly these where the issues i had with amphetamine on AMT:


> Im not taking it at the moment, ive only been on and off it several times havent really taken it long term yet as i needed to take care of several issues, including extreme paranoia wich i found something for and now excess euphoria on top of AMT wich makes me stop giving a **** about anything (worse then i usually am). The problem is i often take breaks wich would stop tolerance from occuring to those effects (especially with memantine). I dunno about the apetite supression tough, what pathways are involved in that?





> Theoretically naltrexone should allow me:
> 
> - Take the correct amphetamine doses combined with AMT for full remission without excess euphoria.
> - Not interfere with the anxiolytic effects since dopamine release in the mesolimbic reward pathways isnt exactly usefull for my anxiety.
> ...





> I dropped down to 20mg of memantine yesterday and today my AMT is starting to work again, still not as it should but alot better then the last few days on higher memantine doses, also d aspartic acid brought back the stupidity of the initial memantine brainfog (without the brainfog wich i suspect was mediated by A7) i beleive d aspartic acid is causing NMDA receptor downregulation.
> 
> Regarding AMT, when i was on 60mg of memantine both MDMA and AMT didnt work at all, when i dropped down to 40mg MDMA worked again but AMT still didnt work properly, now i'm dropping down to 20mg of memantine and AMT is starting to work again.
> 
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> also, you say you take piracetam with it (what dosage currently)? ...and it still retains its tolerance-preventing effects this way? I ask because... whether 2x daily or 1x daily, that's definitely still a hefty dosage of memantine, and piracetam DOES do a great job at reversing its cognitive effects so it becomes more of a 'background' thing...
> 
> hope to hear from ya!
> -z


I stopped taking piracetam as i ran out due to megadosing lol, but i'm readding that soon.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Well i got AMT working again after dropping down to 20mg of memantine, still not optimal as blood levels are still dropping but works a TON better.

I'm actually pretty sure now that selank did not inhibit AMT's euphoria but actually potentiates the anxiolytic effects and that it was my higher memantine dose that was inhibiting it, would make sense as selank potentiates the euphoria i got from amp, soon i'm gonna readd selank.

I beleive AMT supresses glutamate, so the combined effect of that with the lower memantine dose may be enough for amphetamine tolerance, will give it a proper trial! 

SA was significantly diminshed at work today, awesome!

I'm considering trying disulfiram on AMT and Amphetamine, it should block the NE related effects while also potentiate the dopamine effects:



> Disulfiram inhibits dopamine β-hydroxylase (DBH), the enzyme that converts DA to NE (Karamanakos et al., 2001; Vaccari et al., 1996). As a result, synaptic NE levels decrease relative to DA . . .
> 
> Disulfiram's efficacy for amphetamine addiction has not been examined until recently. Disulfiram enhanced both amphetamine induced pleasurable ("high" and "drug liking") as well as unpleasant ("anxious" and "bad drug effects") subjective effects, *but did not affect d-amphetamine-induced increases in heart rate or blood pressure (Sofuoglu et al., 2008b).* Disulfiram, through inhibition of the enzyme dopamine β-hydroxylase, may increase the amount of dopamine in the brain by blocking dopamine's conversion to norepinephrine and thereby increasing the amount of dopamine that amphetamine can release (Karamanakos et al., 2001). The active release of dopamine from noradrenergic neurons terminating on the nucleus accumbens would likely increase amphetamine's positive and negative subjective effects, as observed. *From a treatment perspective, although disulfiram might reduce amphetamine abuse by amplifying amphetamine-induced anxiety and "bad drug effects"*, making the experience aversive in the same way it does the experience of alcohol intoxication, *it might also increase abuse potential by enhancing "high" and "craving". *How these disulfiram-induced increases in both positive and negative subjective responses to amphetamine affect actual drug use remains to be determined empirically in future studies.


Disulfiram does also potentiate amphetamine induced anxiety, wich to me is expected as youd cause a big increase in dopamine wich causes excess agonism in the panic centers, not combining it with recreational doses should avoid that and only potentiate the positive dopamine mediated effects while decreasing NE related anxiety (wich i'm sensitive too).


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

anything that potentiates DA effects while holding back the effects of the potentially-increased NE is amazing... (and actually something very much needed on my end, chemistry-support-wise) - in the proper regions, the more-pronounced endocrine activation coupled with parasympathetic support (which NE does NOTHING for ;/ only interrupts) would be the most interesting outcome if any such regimen could do this accurately.

cool news about elminating SA at work with your latest.. such a good feeling to 'get it right' or at least close, chem-wise, huh  so much easier to do the rest from your mindset etc. etc. (like "normal ppl" ) -- well, at least that's how it feels in my case hehe.

keep us posted further if there are more developments!

also, I haven't looked at all into a-MT what are the functional differences between it and other related compounds (sorry if you've already covered it or something)? ...how'd you go about obtaining some? heh.. I'm also strictly solution-minded in my goal for ideal balance, and excess euphoria would be dealt with just as in your standards (until it reaches a proper stability and normality)... but nonetheless it was funny to hear about -- I lol'd when I read your reports of annoyance towards it..


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

aMT is a serotonine, dopamine, norepinephedrine releasing agent and 5HT2A agonist (and a few other receptors) basicly its the PERFECT antidepressant. There arent any related compounds except AET but that was withdrawn due to causing a rare white blood count disorder.

I do take GBL every evening just for the recreational effects, i love euphoria, and i would like to get sustainable euphoria every evening! (wich i found with the GBL - 2CD combo). GBL can be taken every day if you stick to the evenings, many ppl fail to do that and get severely addicted!! Ive been using GBL on and off since 2008, i allways stick to using it on the evenings only!

However euphoria can only be sustainable if:

- You dont ramble **** you will regret, you still have to behave normally, except when taking recreational substances on the weekend, those can be more potent, but not for daily use .
- There's no severe comedown the next day.

The excess euphoria caused by the amphetamine AMT combo caused me to allways take more amp then i was supposed to as i stopped giving a **** about everything except listening music, also my behavor changed as i was too euphoric. Also the euphoria abolished all motivation i had.

I also want my euphoric substances to be differend from the substances i take therapeutically, i dont have to act like a euphoric fool at work or something lol.

Also amphetamine on amt (or on its own) only completely abolishes my social anxiety at higher doses wich make me high as ****, it can be argumented that it is the high that abolishes my social anxiety, however this isnt the case, read this:


> Here's what doesnt work for my social anxiety at all:
> 
> - Selective serotonine releasers, up to recreational doses, induce euphoria but lack any effect on my social anxiety.
> - Alcohol, induces euphoria but doesnt work either
> ...


Basicly i beleive the anxiolytic effects come from brainarea's unrelated to the reward pathways, doses that abolish my SA make me high as ****, no long term solution, however on the comedown of a recreational dose of MDMA or amphetamine after i go clubbing i allways stay free of social anxiety for the whole next day, the drugs are still active in my system, even tough i'm in my "crash", the crash is basicly receptor internalization taking place, rapid downregulation of receptors, even tough monoamines are still elevated, i beleive in that state my dopamine receptors are downregulated in the mesolimbic reward pathways, while dopamine is still active in the anxiolytic area's.

Replicating that would involve shutting down the reward pathways and let amp do its work in the anxiolytic area's.

I can choose btw 70% SA reduction and hypomania on my amp and AMT or 100% reduction in SA, without hypomania, i choose the latter.

Dont try at home i'm the most crazy fool on the internet!!!, i have a very addictive personality (altough ive never been trough any withdrawal of anything, or physically addicted to any substance), dont follow my example and chase euphoria everyday! Atleast follow my simple rule, dont chase euphoria with therapeutic meds, use differend substances seperate from those.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

hmm well, nevertheless, that's sound advice. nothing for me to read into too seriously as I'm born with a 100%-responsibility streak when it comes to all substances.. harr, but it's nice that you wrote that out for any people that might stumble upon / read it and suddenly wanna try everything (they're not actually that rare!) hehe.

glad you've made the proper distinctions in separating between the two categories for yourself, though... that's very good. and thanks for the clarification on AMT!

we all have goals and means to pursue them.. that's the very concept of DRIVE, haha. so nah, one's only as "crayzy" as their ambitions. 

cheers!
-z


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Are you interested in trying AMT btw? Its the best thing ive ever tried and it has been in clinical use for a long time and doesnt make you really high either, it works very well therapeutically.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> hmm well, nevertheless, that's sound advice. nothing for me to read into too seriously as I'm born with a 100%-responsibility streak when it comes to all substances.. harr, but it's nice that you wrote that out for any people that might stumble upon / read it and suddenly wanna try everything (they're not actually that rare!) hehe.
> 
> glad you've made the proper distinctions in separating between the two categories for yourself, though... that's very good. and thanks for the clarification on AMT!
> 
> ...


Haha true.


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## Under17 (May 4, 2010)

GBL turns into GHB when you take it right? How come it's not addictive when you take it at night? It won't make you have withdrawals either?

I'm guessing its illegal though in the US. Anywhere it's not illegal?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Under17 said:


> GBL turns into GHB when you take it right? How come it's not addictive when you take it at night? It won't make you have withdrawals either?
> 
> I'm guessing its illegal though in the US. Anywhere it's not illegal?


GHB has a very short half life, you never get addicted to it unless you take it 24/7, only in the eveings then you avoid withdrawals.

Ive been using it on and off since 2008, never experienced any sign of withdrawal 

Its legal in most european countrys.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> aMT is a serotonine, dopamine, norepinephedrine releasing agent and 5HT2A agonist (and a few other receptors) basicly its the PERFECT antidepressant. There arent any related compounds except AET but that was withdrawn due to causing a rare white blood count disorder.
> 
> I do take GBL every evening just for the recreational effects, i love euphoria, and i would like to get sustainable euphoria every evening! (wich i found with the GBL - 2CD combo). GBL can be taken every day if you stick to the evenings, many ppl fail to do that and get severely addicted!! Ive been using GBL on and off since 2008, i allways stick to using it on the evenings only!
> 
> ...


I totally agree with crazymed. Usually people search in medication euphoria and anytime mania, that are very dangerous state especially for work, study ecc. I think that medications are thought to fix some chemical imbalance and return to a normal state of function. Are not supposed to makes people super-human, that will lead to a big crash first or later.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Since that i needed to drop down to 20mg of memantine to make my AMT work again, i decided to trial low bumps of ketamine during the day to augment the anti tolerance propertie's of memantine, this guy got me interested:



> o ive been taking memantine for about a month now. ive got to say that im kind of disappointed, it barely did anything for my opiate tolerance (even though i was taking at least 3 days off in a week). as for my selegiline tolerance, well it certainly did slow down my tolerance, and at times it even felt like it was reversing it, but i still ended up getting tolerant and now 5 mg barely does anything, whereas just three weeks ago 5 mg would have been really noticable.
> 
> i really believe that ketamine is much more effective at reducing and slowing down tolerance. i know its half life is pretty short, but now i strongly believe that the sensitization that it causes to the receptors remains even after the drug has worn off. for example a few weeks ago i took MDMA, and the day after i binged on low doses of ketamine, and the day after i was completely fine, whereas usually MDMA makes me depressed for at least a week after. the same thing happened with cocaine, and with cocaine i took a lot of ketamine the day after a binge, and the day after i took ketamine i took cocaine again and the effects were even stronger than they were before
> 
> just my two cents.


Ketamine is a much more stronger NMDA antagonist then memantine, i beleive it can be powerfull adjunct for drug tolerance, the half life is a downside tough.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

More interesting readings on ketamine:

Very interesting!!


> J Palliat Med. 2010 Jul;13(7):903-8.
> Oral ketamine for the rapid treatment of depression and anxiety in patients receiving hospice care.
> Irwin SA, Iglewicz A.
> 
> ...





> mTOR-Dependent Synapse Formation Underlies the Rapid Antidepressant Effects of NMDA Antagonists
> 
> Nanxin Li, Boyoung Lee, Rong-Jian Liu, Mounira Banasr, Jason M. Dwyer, Masaaki Iwata, Xiao-Yuan Li, George Aghajanian, Ronald S. Duman*
> Science 20 August 2010; Vol. 329. no. 5994, pp. 959 - 964
> ...





> Biol Psychiatry. 2010 Jan 15;67(2):139-45.
> Safety and efficacy of repeated-dose intravenous ketamine for treatment-resistant depression.
> aan het Rot M, Collins KA, Murrough JW, Perez AM, Reich DL, Charney DS, Mathew SJ.
> 
> ...





> Biol Psychiatry. 2009 Sep 1;66(5):522-6. Epub 2009 Jul 9.
> Effects of intravenous ketamine on explicit and implicit measures of suicidality in treatment-resistant depression.
> Price RB, Nock MK, Charney DS, Mathew SJ.
> 
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Part2


> J Clin Psychiatry. 2010 Jul 13. [Epub ahead of print]
> Rapid resolution of suicidal ideation after a single infusion of an N-methyl-D-aspartate antagonist in patients with treatment-resistant major depressive disorder.
> Diazgranados N, Ibrahim LA, Brutsche NE, Ameli R, Henter ID, Luckenbaugh DA, Machado-Vieira R, Zarate CA Jr.
> 
> ...





> J ECT. 2009 Nov 19. [Epub ahead of print]
> Rapid Antidepressant Effect of Ketamine Anesthesia During Electroconvulsive Therapy of Treatment-Resistant Depression: Comparing Ketamine and Propofol Anesthesia.
> Okamoto N, Nakai T, Sakamoto K, Nagafusa Y, Higuchi T, Nishikawa T.
> 
> ...


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## doze (Aug 9, 2010)

ketamin is very interesting for me
i did get high on memantine lol,(increased dose too fast)
so probably ket is gonna be hell of the party)
you absolutly right about amphetamines. when i take adderall pills i just jumping,dancing infront of my laptop bymyself until its wears off)
usually i listen songs one by one, but when high on amph i can listen the same song nonstop like a robot!
i dont know how people get motivation from it
only nicotine gives me motivation
and gbl is interesting too. i read book written by the famous russian doctor who used to treat drug adiction by using ghb,and recomend it for life prolongation. He claims it is not addictive at all, and seizures can be avoided by taking potassium,and toxicity occurs because people drink it in the form of ****en industrial bleach.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

^^ Haha exactly, some amps and in no time i keep listening the same song over and over because it sounds so good and perfect and you cant get enough of it! And my motivation problems were allways very severe, so really needed a solution for that.
Hahaha yeah i'm also acting all hyperactive behind my computer when there's some good music up!

AMT! Makes me motivated to get everything done, it works very well for my ADHD.



> He claims it is not addictive at all,


Thats completely bull****, there's alot of ignorant information on the internet touting it as some sort of magical drug without dependency problems.

Things cant be any more wrong... GHB addiction is awefull and something you definatly need to avoid, if you stick to only taking it at night you wont get psysically addicted to the drug, of you start taking it 24/7, well yeah thats a differend story...


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## doze (Aug 9, 2010)

did you notice any tolerance to ghb after longterm use?
what is your dose is it stable or you increase from time to time?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

doze said:


> did you notice any tolerance to ghb after longterm use?
> what is your dose is it stable or you increase from time to time?


I have never noticed any tolorance with GBL, i think that only becomes a problem with abusing the substance too much, when you take it at the evenings your body has plenty of time left where your body can adjust itself again without G in your system.

My doses have allways been simular since i first started using it in 2008, part of the reason could be that i allways order to late and get breaks of a few weeks once and awhile.

Here are the pro's and cons ive derived from using GBL long term:

- It worked for my chronic anhedonia right away, also the added euphoria was a welcome plus.
- Basicly being able to get euphoric every eveing, during the day its time for work, no need for it when visiting friends either, but i dont see anything wrong by taking a relatively mild recreation substance at the evenings, its time to relax then anyway!

Cons

- Mental addiction, i really miss it when i dont have any GBL around anymore.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Under17 said:


> I'm guessing its illegal though in the US. Anywhere it's not illegal?


Depends, it's illegal in street form obviously, however if you have narcolepsy then the pharmaceutical form known as Xyrem (sodium oxybate) is available on prescription.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

GBL is cool if you can handle it... I couldn't. In this case it begins with taking too much during the day, getting insomnia and taking higher doses for sleep too which results in 24/7 abuse. The withdrawal can be extremely brutal. To all the good guys out there who are as stupid as I was a long time ago: For withdrawal use Baclofen and some benzos, works like a charm.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Medline said:


> GBL is cool if you can handle it... I couldn't. In this case it begins with taking too much during the day, getting insomnia and taking higher doses for sleep too which results in 24/7 abuse. The withdrawal can be extremely brutal. To all the good guys out there who are as stupid as I was a long time ago: For withdrawal use Baclofen and some benzos, works like a charm.


Yeah ive allways been very strick in keeping it for evening use, i also never take it for sleep, i basicly wait till it stops working and then go sleep (GBL is energizing for me). But its not for everyone, in some it end in a bad 24/7 addiction.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Today i'm on 20mg memantine, 500mg curcumin, 7,5mg AMT and dexedrine.

It seems the curcumin abolishes the amp anxiety while also dampening down the amp euphoria on amt, my SA is drastically reduced and i feel relaxed, a pretty new feeling, odd tough my motivation seems less so then just AMT without curcumin.

Its an interesting combo for sure.

And i stopped DAA yesterday, i think it was making me exhausted during the day, inhibited my apetite and made me get an allergic reaction of amphetamine 2 days ago.


There's really a clarity of mind going on with curcumin.


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Today i'm on 20mg memantine, 500mg curcumin, 7,5mg AMT and dexedrine.
> 
> It seems the curcumin abolishes the amp anxiety while also dampening down the amp euphoria on amt, my SA is drastically reduced and i feel relaxed, a pretty new feeling, odd tough my motivation seems less so then just AMT without curcumin.
> 
> ...


 Wes the ultimate experimenter! Someones gotta do it, right?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

metamorphosis said:


> Wes the ultimate experimenter! Someones gotta do it, right?


Hahahaha


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Today i'm on 20mg memantine, 500mg curcumin, 7,5mg AMT and dexedrine.
> 
> It seems the curcumin abolishes the amp anxiety while also dampening down the amp euphoria on amt, my SA is drastically reduced and i feel relaxed, a pretty new feeling, odd tough my motivation seems less so then just AMT without curcumin.
> 
> ...


Err, DAA?

Funny that you're noticing a mellowing effect from curcumin, of all things.. haha. What inspired this idea in the first place? :0 Hope it continues to help, let us know if you notice a continued, definite benefit from the combination, etc. etc.!

Also, I was hoping to ask further about your thoughts/experiences with disulfiram. From a personal standpoint, I'm very sensitive to DA-to-NE ratio, so to speak, and feel like NE-supplementation from various agents has *always* yielded only unhelpful anxiogenic result, while proper dopaminergic stimulation has ever been helpful. Won't go into lots of detail as to how I've realized this over the years, but suffice it to say that's an observation that remains consistent AND accurate for me. Thus, DBH-inhibitors (purely from a "theory" perspective) have always seemed very intriguing. I'm a bit surprised I overlooked this one... and would be curious to hear more.

What are your thoughts on this?
-z


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it can definatly be helpfull, for NE related anxiety i would suggest one/several of the following:

Disulfiram

Nebivolol:


> Norepinephrine signaling through beta-adrenergic receptors is critical for expression of cocaine-induced anxiety.
> Schank JR, Liles LC, Weinshenker D.
> 
> Department of Human Genetics, Emory University, Atlanta, GA 30322, USA.
> ...


Beta andrenergic receptors cause NE related anxiety.

Candesartan:


> Anxiety-like behavior in mice lacking the angiotensin II type-2 receptor.
> Okuyama S, Sakagawa T, Chaki S, Imagawa Y, Ichiki T, Inagami T.
> 
> 1st Laboratory, Medicinal Research Laboratories, Taisho Pharmaceutical, 1-403, Yoshinocho, Ohmiya 330-8530, Japan.
> ...


Increases angiotensin II several fold by AT1 agonism witch causes increased AT2 agonism, AT2 antagonism causes anxiety by a noradrenergic related mechanism.

As for curcumin i'm a bit of a health freak and curcumin has incredible health promoting benefits in alot of ways, i rate it as the best supplement togheter with resveratrol. I just noticed its modulation of amp.

Curcumin has also been shown to reverse morphine tolerance and may possibly do the same for other drugs.

As for DAA thats D aspartic acid, causes a big boost in testosterone.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Ah, that's what DAA referred to, ok...

Yeah, for sure, curcumin is definitely health-promoting, and its anti-inflammatory benefits are just like the google-herb-sales-pages rave about ;P for the most part...

Thanks for that list.. I've definitely looked into adrenergic blockade with carvedilol (with some success) and candesartan does little more than lower blood pressure/cause meh-ness for me.... but still I've yet to have a run-in with actual DBH inhibitors... have you or anyone you know had any experiences with disulfiram, or were you just listing it as an idea?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

It was an idea i was considering myself, i havent read any experiences.


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## MBL (Oct 5, 2010)

doze said:


> did you notice any tolerance to ghb after longterm use?
> what is your dose is it stable or you increase from time to time?


GHB or GBL withdrawls can be quite nasty. As bad or worse than benzo WD. I do notice a tolerance buildup after a few days use. Have not had it in a long time though.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

MBL said:


> GHB or GBL withdrawls can be quite nasty. As bad or worse than benzo WD. I do notice a tolerance buildup after a few days use. Have not had it in a long time though.


The withdrawals or worse then benzo's but they arent long lasting as opposed to with benzo's from what ive read, for me personally tolerance never became an issue, luckily.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

> Nepicastat (RS-25560-197) is a novel, selective, and potent inhibitor of dopamine β-hydroxylase, which modulates catecholamine levels (reduces norepinephrine and elevates dopamine) in cardiovascular tissues. This study was designed to evaluate the cardiovascular effects of nepicastat. Acute oral administration of nepicastat (0.3, 1, 3, 10, and 30 mg/kg) produced attenuation of the pressor and positive chronotropic responses to preganglionic sympathetic nerve stimulation (about twofold to sixfold shift in the frequency-response curve) in pithed spontaneously hypertensive rats (SHRs). In inactin-anesthetized SHRs, the antihypertensive effects of nepicastat (3 mg/kg, i.v.) were accompanied by a significant decrease in renal vascular resistance (38%), a tendency toward an increase in renal blood flow (22%), and no adverse effects on urine output and Na/K excretion. In conscious, unrestrained, telemetry-implanted SHRs, nepicastat (30 and 100 mg/kg/day for 30 days) produced dose-dependent decreases in mean arterial blood pressure (peak decrease of 20 and 42 mm Hg. respectively) without evoking reflex tachycardia. Long-term, concurrent administration of nepicastat (30 mg/kg/day, p.o.) and a subthreshold dose of enalapril (1 mg/kg/day, p.o.) produced greater antihypertensive effects than those produced by nepicastat alone-In normal dogs, nepicastat (5.0 mg/kg, p.o., b.i.d., for 4.5 days) blunted the positive chronotropic and pressor response to tyramine. These findings suggest that nepicastat functionally modulates sympathetic drive to cardiovascular tissues and may be of value in the treatment of cardiovascular disorders associated with overactivation of the sympathetic nervous system such as hypertension and congestive heart failure.


If only NEPICASTAT would hurry up and be released ;P ...cuz disulfiram seems to have a lot of negatives associated with its rather broad range of other effects (or maybe I'm not understanding correctly).. I don't drink much so I could easily stop at the expense of being 1% lamer at parties, haha, but the overall idea still sounds a bit unsettling.

Anyway, rambling on... guess I'll give up on that for now, back to the topic at hand. :}

Baclofen is as close to GBL as I've gotten (not very close ), but that has had some tremendous motivation/SA benefits (very surprisingly! -- maybe that's just for select people)... going to see about getting it scripted soon, in fact. But yeah, definitely a fine line to walk with something like GBL.. sounds like that's not on your list of concerns, though.. bravo on managing well with it, always keep the goal in mind. 

-z


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

^^ Il take a look at that later today.

I know why curcumin is dampening down amp euphoria, its most likely related by curumin's modulation of CREB activity, creb plays a major role in drug addiction, sensitization, tolerance and reward. I beleive curcumin has some major potential for drug tolerance if it indeed modulates creb in all reward pathways, basicly NMDA antagonists work for tolerance by blocking changes in creb mediated trough the NMDA pathway.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Well, once i get memantine back and restart my regime its time to restart social exposure, you cant get social cravings (or wanting to go out with ppl) without exposure, i remember when i went outside daily with my friends every evening for several months i HAD to go out everyday, and called someone asking where they were gonna hang out, even tough the experience itself was highly unpleasant (wich was because of SA wich i have fixed with this regime).

Even tough SA is fixed you cant get social cravings without chronic social exposure, its of crucial importance.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

yeh... kinda conditioning oneself to be more extroverted -- really a great way to make that paradigm shift.

for people that have issue with motivation, that kinda shift is somewhat less possible to make permanently. like for me, I may blend in to the party/convo/etc. just fine, but getting the drive to get out and actually go there in the first place feels a bit like forcing down food when you're not hungry etc. (though I know it's for the best and just do it ) but it doesn't change on its own the more I get out there, heh...

however, in your scenario, with SA (the most contributing factor) more or less out of the picture, seriously rock on out, bro! \m/

just don't go too crayzy, eh... xD


feel free to update if any other cool insights/developments come about.


PS - do you feel like memantine's effects consistently last 10-12 hours? warranting 2xdaily dosing?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I do feel my MDMA use highly contributed to me wanting to be around my friends, because when going out with them i was able to connect with them and we got to know eachother well, you get a good connection automatically.

Its not something to do with motivation but exposure when something is neurologically wrong is extremely ineffective. It however is essential after you are on working medication. Social wanting doesnt get there without exposure.

Several have found that 2 x dosing a day is much better when it comes to apropiate tolerance prevention, thats why.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> ^^ Il take a look at that later today.
> 
> I know why curcumin is dampening down amp euphoria, its most likely related by curumin's modulation of CREB activity, creb plays a major role in drug addiction, sensitization, tolerance and reward. I beleive curcumin has some major potential for drug tolerance if it indeed modulates creb in all reward pathways, basicly NMDA antagonists work for tolerance by blocking changes in creb mediated trough the NMDA pathway.


I take curcumin as well, i think its the most important supplement i take. The stuff is magic and works on most drug tolerance and raises BDNF increasing neurogenesis in the hippocampus (almost doubles new cells in the dentate gyrus). It also balances serotonin and removes dopamine from certain areas of the brain involved with addiction.

Curcuma longa is a major constituent of Xiaoyao-san, the traditional Chinese medicine, which has been used to effectively manage stress and depression-related disorders in China. As the active component of curcuma longa, curcumin possesses many therapeutic properties; we have previously described its antidepressant activity in our earlier studies using the chronic unpredictable stress model of depression in rats. Recent studies show that stress-induced damage to hippocampal neurons may contribute to the phathophysiology of depression. The aim of this study was to investigate the effects of curcumin on hippocampal neurogenesis in chronically stressed rats. We used an unpredictable chronic stress paradigm (20 days) to determine whether chronic curcumin treatment with the effective doses for behavioral responses (5, 10 and 20 mg/kg, p.o.), could alleviate or reverse the effects of stress on adult hippocampal neurogenesis. Our results suggested that curcumin administration (10 and 20 mg/kg, p.o.) increased hippocampal neurogenesis in chronically stressed rats, similar to classic antidepressant imipramine treatment (10 mg/kg, i.p.). Our results further demonstrated that these new cells mature and become neurons, as determined by triple labeling for BrdU and neuronal- or glial-specific markers. In addition, curcumin significantly prevented the stress-induced decrease in 5-HT1A mRNA and BDNF protein levels in the hippocampal subfields, two molecules involved in hippocampal neurogenesis. These results raise the possibility that increased cell proliferation and neuronal populations may be a mechanism by which curcumin treatment overcomes the stress-induced behavioral abnormalities and hippocampal neuronal damage. Moreover, curcumin treatment, via up-regulation of 5-HT1A receptors and BDNF, may reverse or protect hippocampal neurons from further damage in response to chronic stress, which may underlie the therapeutic actions of curcumin.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah the benefits of curcumin are INSANE, its also the most incredible antidepressant i ever took, for more info on the huge benefits:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=41876 (there's a TON of study's here).

It puts every other supplement to shame.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

A few interesting things on CREB (wich curcumin inhibits and is the reason why it reverses morphine tolerance, and possibly tolerance/dependency's to other drugs too



> Psychological drug tolerance
> The reward system is partly responsible for the psychological part of drug tolerance.
> The CREB protein, a transcription factor activated by cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) immediately after a high, triggers genes that produce proteins such as dynorphin, which cuts off dopamine release and temporarily inhibits the reward circuit. In chronic drug users, a sustained activation of CREB thus forces a larger dose to be taken to reach the same effect. In addition it leaves the user feeling generally depressed and dissatisfied, and unable to find pleasure in previously enjoyable activities, often leading to a return to the drug for an additional "fix".[21]
> A similar mechanism, interfering also with the dopamine system, but relying on a different transcription factor, CEBPB, has also been proposed. In this case dopamine release onto the nucleus accumbens neurons would trigger the increased synthesis of substance P which, in turn, would increase the dopamine synthesis in the VTA. The effect of this positive feedback is suggested to be dampened by repeated substance abuse.[22]


Curcumin made it impossible for me to get depressed even after recreational doses of amphetamine.

For more information behind the dynamics of sensitization, tolerance and addiction:
http://www.mesolimbic.com/article/addiction.html
http://www.nature.com/embor/journal/v7/n2/full/7400635.html
http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/23


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> A few interesting things on CREB (wich curcumin inhibits and is the reason why it reverses morphine tolerance, and possibly tolerance/dependency's to other drugs too
> 
> Curcumin made it impossible for me to get depressed even after recreational doses of amphetamine.


hah... sounds like the stuff has worked wonders for you. the dynamics of the body's sensitization/tolerance mechanisms are incredibly complex and awe-inspiring to think about, even if the amount of information/understanding we can possibly derive at this point is limited.

by "depressed even after recreational doses..." do you mean after like WHILE it was in effect, or 8-10 hours later or something? either way, interesting.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

No if you take recreational dose of amphetamine you are depressed in the crash, after it wears off, 8-10 hours later usually yeah.


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## Under17 (May 4, 2010)

How long did it take you to feel the effects from curcumin? This stuff sounds really good, I'm still waiting for it in the mail.

Eventually my regimen will be curcumin, buspar, d-aspartic acid, vinpocetine and milnacipran. I also found out GHB is pretty damn useful for fibromyalgia, so I will add that whenever the hell I can get it, which will probably be never thanks to the FDA. (1,4-b also happens to be schedule I in the state I live in, just my luck) Perhaps lyrica or gabapentin can substitute for it at night for sleep, I haven't tried either yet.

BTW does curcumin help with headaches?


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> No if you take recreational dose of amphetamine you are depressed in the crash, after it wears off, 8-10 hours later usually yeah.


thats why i follow the crash with oxycodone.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Under17 said:


> How long did it take you to feel the effects from curcumin? This stuff sounds really good, I'm still waiting for it in the mail.
> 
> Eventually my regimen will be curcumin, buspar, d-aspartic acid, vinpocetine and milnacipran. I also found out GHB is pretty damn useful for fibromyalgia, so I will add that whenever the hell I can get it, which will probably be never thanks to the FDA. (1,4-b also happens to be schedule I in the state I live in, just my luck) Perhaps lyrica or gabapentin can substitute for it at night for sleep, I haven't tried either yet.
> 
> BTW does curcumin help with headaches?


Dont get addicted to GHB tough, its awesome that you can take it daily without physical addicted if you only stick the evenings, but once you take it 24/7 you get into bad trouble.

A couple days i think and curcumin was allready working.
Vinpocetine is rubbish, forget it, what about adding nardil?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> thats why i follow the crash with oxycodone.


Dont like opiates but GHB 100% reverses the crash tough.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I ran out of everything untill i have more money again, even memantine, so will have to live on cafeine for a while lol, i'm pretty much set with my regime except counteracting dexedrine's induced apetite supression, because i'm eating a bulking diet and lifting weights at home lol, can barely eat **** whenever i have dexedrine.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Well i restarted selank today untill i have my other stuff again, selank is highly neuroprotective, neurotrophic and a very potent nootropic, should help my anhedonia and ADHD a bit, could use some ADHD help as i need to be looking for a good job and stop being so lazy lol.

I can buy GHB and amp around here, but i'm gonna take a break of those to reset any tolerance, will just wait for my next orders!

I beleive that being able to take a break on a regular basis without feeling bad withdrawals is a key component of a good regime that works in the long term.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'l call this day1, as i just started it in the evening yesterday:

The combination of selank and cafeine does work quite well for anhedonia and for extra wellbeing, there's a definite anxiolytic feel to it too, i remember years ago i used energy drinks to counteract anhedonia when they were working a ton better and even made me euphoric, the combo of selank and cafeine does come quite close.

Oddly, despite taking stimulants and staying awake for 3 days last weekend i didnt feel any hangover after a night of sleep sunday, did take a 3 day break of stimulants before that to get back to baseline tough.

I'm gonna do my workout this afternoon, hopefully i didnt lose too much strengt by overdoing my amp in 2 weeks time (and barely eating **** offcourse too).


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> No if you take recreational dose of amphetamine you are depressed in the crash, after it wears off, 8-10 hours later usually yeah.


For me it's more like 2-4 hours. 4 hours being a generous estimate of the most I've had desirable effects from amp for, and that was when I had no tolerance AND tried to push the duration longer using amisulpride (I think). Most of the time just 2 hours is the duration limit. I have no idea where this 8-10 hour figure is coming from, maybe you are just referring to lingering adrenergic stimulation? Does anyone else get 8-10 hours of Dex/Addy working?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Amp only work for 2 hours in my case without memantine with adronergic stimulation lasting after that, memantine fixed the problem tough, making it 5 hours, 8-10 hours is for recreational doses.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Funny how memantine seems to have such a miraculous effect in this respect... (I crack up at crayzy's sig on M&M forums "Prophet of the memantine church" to this day haha ). Even as G4D mentioned in some results, how memantine prolongs the time-frame of baclofen by at least several hours (my results support this)... it's overall a very welcomed effect.

Now if only there were reliable ways to counteract the anti-cholinergic crap that memantine always seems to bring about... (can always tell in terms of things that require dexterity/coordination/memory, etc.) I can never seem to develop tolerance to that, on 10mg / 2x a day, though maybe it just hasn't been long enough yet... hmmm.


PS - crayzy, can you PM me more info about selank (places to get it, er?) sometime, it looks very promising with those serotonin-like (and, as you mentioned in your selank thread, enkephalin-promoting "glowy") anxiolytic effects...


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

zodiac55 said:


> Now if only there were reliable ways to counteract the anti-cholinergic crap that memantine always seems to bring about... (can always tell in terms of things that require dexterity/coordination/memory, etc.) I can never seem to develop tolerance to that, on 10mg / 2x a day, though maybe it just hasn't been long enough yet... hmmm.


Supplements like CDP-choline, meclofenoxate, and them types perhaps? Nicotine seems to help a bit for me. Aniracetam a bit too.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

euphoria said:


> Supplements like CDP-choline, meclofenoxate, and them types perhaps? Nicotine seems to help a bit for me. Aniracetam a bit too.


Yeh, I hear ya on those... though for me, the effect oftentimes feels "overbearing" - where fuel support (like choline, etc.) alone doesn't feel like enough.

The racetams are a different story, though... very much helpful. Piracetam + memantine do, in fact, exhibit quite a synergy (energizing, even unnecessarily so, in some respects )... but that really makes me wonder the age-old question of how much "tolerance-prevention" the racetams' NMDA agonism might be taking away from memantine's (NMDA antagonism) effect...

Have you heard any definitive / anecdotal evidence either way about this?


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Dont like opiates but GHB 100% reverses the crash tough.


I find it very odd that you dont like opiates, you must have something very weird going on neurologically as opiates SHOULD be highly euphoric for anyone at the correct doses.

I have observed that most MDMA heavy users also hate opiates and i suspect it has to do with alteration is the glutamatergic system which regulates opiate euphoria as well as the negative symptoms of schizophrenia among many other things.

So is it that opiates dont make you euphoric? If not what about combined with dexamp?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> I find it very odd that you dont like opiates, you must have something very weird going on neurologically as opiates SHOULD be highly euphoric for anyone at the correct doses.
> 
> I have observed that most MDMA heavy users also hate opiates and i suspect it has to do with alteration is the glutamatergic system which regulates opiate euphoria as well as the negative symptoms of schizophrenia among many other things.
> 
> So is it that opiates dont make you euphoric? If not what about combined with dexamp?


Opiates and benzo's never worked for me, nothing to do with MDMA use, yes i do have something weird neurologically, as i dont even notice any breathing depression when i take 60mg oxycodone without tolerance, with stims they have their normal effect, very low doses blow me away with euphoria, and benzo's make me sedated in stumble around (instead of just double vision and nothing else of for example 20mg xanax).

I suspect most mdma users just dont like downers, neither do i, even tough the experience was very euphoric with amp, i cant really care for it, give me my GHB (energizing downer hehe!) or my amps or MDMA.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Opiates and benzo's never worked for me, nothing to do with MDMA use, yes i do have something weird neurologically, as i dont even notice any breathing depression when i take 60mg oxycodone without tolerance, with stims they have their normal effect, very low doses blow me away with euphoria, and benzo's make me sedated in stumble around (instead of just double vision and nothing else of for example 20mg xanax).
> 
> I suspect most mdma users just dont like downers, neither do i, even tough the experience was very euphoric with amp, i cant really care for it, give me my GHB (energizing downer hehe!) or my amps or MDMA.


ah ok.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> Yeh, I hear ya on those... though for me, the effect oftentimes feels "overbearing" - where fuel support (like choline, etc.) alone doesn't feel like enough.
> 
> The racetams are a different story, though... very much helpful. Piracetam + memantine do, in fact, exhibit quite a synergy (energizing, even unnecessarily so, in some respects )... but that really makes me wonder the age-old question of how much "tolerance-prevention" the racetams' NMDA agonism might be taking away from memantine's (NMDA antagonism) effect...
> 
> Have you heard any definitive / anecdotal evidence either way about this?


I will try it soon, as for selank, wanted to reply sooner! its not available yet as far as im aware, i got it from a guy that had it custom synthed.

I'm gonna add in DXM untill i'm back on memantine as tolerance developes extremely FAST to both G and amp without memantine.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Sublingual **** is really nothing for when youv got ADHD, waiting for that damn B12 to disolve drives me crazy.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Damn, DXM is allready working for amp and G, dont get anymore G brainzaps, but all the normal effects are back!!


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Damn, DXM is allready working for amp and G, dont get anymore G brainzaps, but all the normal effects are back!!


Yeah, the stuff's pretty great for NMDA/tolerance :0 though keep in mind its transient SSRI effect (I believe)... nothing profound, just something to be aware of (!).

Also, it's not as long of a half-life as memantine, but does that really make it not as helpful...  let us know your further observations hehe.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> Yeah, the stuff's pretty great for NMDA/tolerance :0 though keep in mind its transient SSRI effect (I believe)... nothing profound, just something to be aware of (!).
> 
> Also, it's not as long of a half-life as memantine, but does that really make it not as helpful...  let us know your further observations hehe.


It appears to work better for most.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I decided to stop using AMT in the future, i found that GBL added to amp works better for me, i did still have motivational problems on amp however i found that the addition of cardivolol eliminated that issue, i kinda disliked the amt and amp combination as it felt quite dirty.

Man, i also added way to many imunosupressive drugs togheter in the past which gave me a bad infection, imunosupression is a property of certain meds i shouldnt ignore when combining several things togheter.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Crazy med just out of observations i know you have social anxiety and anhedonia, you also seem to make very impulsive, risky choices. Ive also noticed that you seem to benefit much more from amphetamine and G as compared to other drugs and do not gain any euphoria at all from opiates without concurrent amphetamine (opiates benefit most everyone alone they are the prototypical euphoriant). That is all in line with you having glutamatergic dysfunction which is implicated in the negative side of schizophrenia.

Im just gonna throw out there that those are both two of the only drugs that work for the negative symptoms of simple schizophrenia that you self medicate with, PERIOD (which i have i add). Have you ever considered you may have this? Social anxiety is present in most schizophrenics before oneset of a certain subtype and is accompanied by poor impulse control and anhedonia to natural life rewards (does not mean you have to be paranoid there are many subtypes of schizophrenia. I only mention it because i do have it and we share the same reactions to drugs.


Just a heads up, because if you continue with the hard core drugs you may develop it as i did if you do not have it already and its simply undiagnosed (i would not be suprised), as the onset is often insidious as it was with me. I might add most schizophrenics will deny they are schizophrenic until put on antipsychotics, and will maintain they are fine.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I am not convinced i can develop shizophrenia from those drugs, and even if there was a risk i wouldnt start taking other drugs, thx for the warning tough, but i'm not really convinced of the shizophrenia connection, rather this seem to be normal effects of hypoactive D2 and D3 functioning.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

G doesnt help my mental issues, just add it for extra euphoria and to take the edge of amp, besides that find memantine EXTREMELY beneficial for OCD.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Also i find MDMA and AMT extremely beneficial wich supress glutamate.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

no doubt but amt and mdma would be beneficial to almost anyone regardless as its a monoamine releaser and would bypass needing glutamatergic signaling for reward. 

Im just saying the fact you cant get euphoria from opiates without a stimulant is a strong sign of glutamate dysfunction. All simple schizophrenia really is, is a disconnect between the reward system and glutamate. How it manifests is different in everyone.

Hypoactive D2 AND D3 could be caused by low glutamate signaling, so this point is moot.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> no doubt but amt and mdma would be beneficial to almost anyone regardless as its a monoamine releaser and would bypass needing glutamatergic signaling for reward.
> 
> Im just saying the fact you cant get euphoria from opiates without a stimulant is a strong sign of glutamate dysfunction. All simple schizophrenia really is, is a disconnect between the reward system and glutamate. How it manifests is different in everyone.


Maybe, i would consider it more complicated altough i dont know much about shizophrenia, i think dopaminergic hypofunctioning fits my bill best, i'm also not entirely positive glutamate is the reason why amp makes opiates work.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> Hypoactive D2 AND D3 could be caused by low glutamate signaling, so this point is moot.


Or a million differend other things.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

haha your right though, im just saying.

interesting study:

Residual social, memory and oxytocin-related changes in rats following repeated exposure to γ-hydroxybutyrate (GHB), 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) or their combination.
van Nieuwenhuijzen PS, Long LE, Hunt GE, Arnold JC, McGregor IS.

School of Psychology, University of Sydney, Sydney, NSW, 2006, Australia. [email protected]
Abstract
RATIONALE: There has been little investigation of the possible lasting adverse effects of γ-hydroxybutyrate (GHB).

OBJECTIVES: This study aims to study whether GHB produces residual adverse effects on memory and social behaviour in rats and lasting changes in brain monoamines and oxytocin-related gene expression.

METHODS: Rats received daily intraperitoneal injections of GHB (500 mg/kg), methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA; 5 mg/kg) or their combination (GHB/MDMA) over ten consecutive days. Locomotor activity and body weight were assessed during the dosing period and withdrawal-related anxiety was assessed 24 h after drug cessation. After a washout of 4 weeks, rats were tested on the emergence, social interaction, and object recognition tasks over a 2-week period. Monoamine levels in cortex and striatum, and hypothalamic oxytocin and oxytocin receptor mRNA, were then assessed.

RESULTS: MDMA and GHB/MDMA caused modest sensitization of locomotor activity over time, while sedative effects of GHB diminished with repeated exposure. GHB-treated rats showed reduced social interaction 24 h after the final dose, indicating GHB withdrawal-induced anxiety. All drug-treated groups displayed residual deficits in social interaction and object recognition. No changes in monoamine levels were detected 8 weeks post-drug. However, MDMA pre-exposure increased hypothalamic oxytocin mRNA while GHB pre-exposure upregulated oxytocin receptor mRNA. GHB/MDMA pre-exposure caused intermediate changes in both of these measures.

CONCLUSIONS: GHB treatment caused residual impairments in memory and social behaviour and increases in anxiety, paralleling the lasting adverse effects of MDMA. Both drugs caused lasting neuroadaptations in brain oxytocin systems and this may be related to the long-term social interaction deficiencies caused by both drugs.

PMID: 20730418 [PubMed - in process]


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Sucks to be a rat.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

we basically have the CNS of a rat haha, but again your right you cant say for sure. 

I probably trust the studies on people less than the ones on rats, with rats you know what their actual drug background is.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Those mRNA study's on rodents cant be directly replicated to humans since rats have differend tolerance/sensitization responses to most drugs.

Regardless, its all individually dependent, when using those drugs chronical evalution of those substances is essential to avoid long term negative effect, regardless most drugs arent known to cause social deficits in humans.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

As an aside there's no reason to beleive normal mainstream meds wont have any worse negative downside, benzo's and antipsychotics are for example horrible meds id never take, also mRNA changes can occur after SSRI treatment too, with the damn rats complaining again, would it be significant for humans? Probably not.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

i agree on ssris and antipsychotics/benzos being as bad or worse.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I decided to stop using AMT in the future, i found that GBL added to amp works better for me, i did still have motivational problems on amp however i found that the addition of cardivolol eliminated that issue, i kinda disliked the amt and amp combination as it felt quite dirty.


Oh? Carvedilol actually helped modulate motivational aspects of amp for you?? Could you elaborate... was it from simply toning down the lingering adrenergic stimulation?

Funny note about the immunosuppression properties - yes, definitely something to keep track of.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

A few days ago i tried a low dose of amp with cardevilol, it worked amazingly well, here a few observations:

- SA reduction was completely there.
- Euphoria was abolished, at home i didnt feel i was on a drug, however outside i suddenly noticed myself enjoying social conversations and notice my SA was barely there.
- I was motivated.

A few clue's about what was going on:


> J Psychopharmacol. 2010 Mar;24(3):309-21. Epub 2008 Dec 12.
> Methylphenidate-induced impulsivity: pharmacological antagonism by beta-adrenoreceptor blockade.
> Milstein JA, Dalley JW, Robbins TW.
> 
> ...


Beta antagonism blocks increased impulsivity by amp.

That combined with the abolisement of euphoria made me motivated to go do the stuff i had to do, and while on it i didnt constantly feel the need to go home again asap to go online and listen music.

Modulation of amp effects:


> Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1988;96(4):521-7.
> Alpha 1- and alpha 2-adrenoreceptor antagonists differentially influence locomotor and stereotyped behaviour induced by d-amphetamine and apomorphine in the rat.
> Dickinson SL, Gadie B, Tulloch IF.
> 
> ...





> J Neurosci. 2002 Apr 1;22(7):2873-84.
> Alpha1b-adrenergic receptors control locomotor and rewarding effects of psychostimulants and opiates.
> Drouin C, Darracq L, Trovero F, Blanc G, Glowinski J, Cotecchia S, Tassin JP.
> 
> ...





> J Neurochem. 2004 Oct;91(2):318-26.
> Role of serotonin 2A receptors in the D-amphetamine-induced release of dopamine: comparison with previous data on alpha1b-adrenergic receptors.
> Auclair A, Blanc G, Glowinski J, Tassin JP.
> 
> ...


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Interesting... especially that last one about 5-ht2a being highly relevant for NAcc DA release... kind of further underscores the immense complexity of the interplay of brain regions . Considering how the whole realm of [spiritual] imagination/manifestation is up there in those hemispheres ...attention, positive/negative affect, body-response, neurotransmitter release... it's sometimes relieving to feel how they're all "governed" by this awesome overarching system of [the you within]. Inspiring, I guess. 

But yeah, not to ramble... carvedilol is in some ways like a magic bullet when it comes to supplementing catecholamines for a beneficial cause, because of how easily they're turned to NE > epinephrine, and their SA benefits diminished. Did this positive reaction with carvedilol + amp. remain with repeated dosage? And do you think carvedilol affected the timing of amp effects at all (shortening or prolonging the period of proper inspiration vs. the lingering adrenergic stimulation)?

just side-notes if you feel like discussing.. if not, no worries... will stay tuned for further updates.. :}
-z


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Finally getting my energy and apetite back lol, looks like this medication ive got now is clearing this **** up.

Wich means i can soon try a new experiment! Was thinking of the following:

Supplements: Jarrow curcumin 500mg, 100mg resveratrol, imo is a low dose res better on a optimal dose of curcumin to avoid interactions and at the same time getting some beneficial effects of the combination.
Medications: 10mg dexedrine 3x a day, GBL, carvedilol and small bumps of ketamine.

I'm interested in seeing how low doses of ketamine combined with curcumin can stack up against tolerance combined with memantine, wich im gonna get later again (or maybe not depending on my results hehe).


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Finally getting my energy and apetite back lol, looks like this medication ive got now is clearing this **** up.
> 
> Wich means i can soon try a new experiment! Was thinking of the following:
> 
> ...


I'd maybe suggest trying MXE over ketamine. You probably already know this but MXE is a legal ketamine analogue, but it has the addition of a wonderful opiate like element to it that you don't get on ketamine. I've taken it every weekend for the last month and am feeling great at the moment. (Although that may well just be due to the new regime I am on as detailed in this thread.)


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yup, thats definatly on my to try list.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> mTOR-Dependent Synapse Formation Underlies the Rapid Antidepressant Effects of NMDA Antagonists
> 
> Nanxin Li, Boyoung Lee, Rong-Jian Liu, Mounira Banasr, Jason M. Dwyer, Masaaki Iwata, Xiao-Yuan Li, George Aghajanian, Ronald S. Duman*
> Science 20 August 2010; Vol. 329. no. 5994, pp. 959 - 964
> ...


Ketamine and its analogues definatly look promosing, altough im not really a fan of the experience they can cause it seems that low bumps that dont cause much effects themselves work against tolerance and can help depression.



> There is one study showing beneficial effects after oral administration:
> Quote
> J Palliat Med. 2010 Jul;13(7):903-8.
> Oral ketamine for the rapid treatment of depression and anxiety in patients receiving hospice care.
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

And a couple more


> Quote
> J Clin Psychiatry. 2010 Jul 13. [Epub ahead of print]
> Rapid resolution of suicidal ideation after a single infusion of an N-methyl-D-aspartate antagonist in patients with treatment-resistant major depressive disorder.
> Diazgranados N, Ibrahim LA, Brutsche NE, Ameli R, Henter ID, Luckenbaugh DA, Machado-Vieira R, Zarate CA Jr.
> ...


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Interesting. x)
Tolerance-fighting is the win.. keep us posted if it compares well!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ive started multivitamine, Jarrow 500mg curcumin, Jarrow 100mg resveratrol and sublingual B12 today, curcumin and resveratrol should protect against G and amp's neurotoxiticy if thats an issue.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Recap of curcumin research:

Introduction

Recently, curcumin was mentioned as a potential treatment for disorders of chronic stress. Though I knew the chemical had been discussed here before, I'd read (and heard) relatively little about it. A search turned up a handful of threads with cursory mentions of curcumin, but very little analysis of the compound. And yet, a search on PubMed turns out a whopping 3300 results. Part of the reason for the discrepancy is that most of these studies were published in the past 5 years (and many in the past year alone), but I also wonder if this little drug has been largely overlooked.

For the record, curcumin is one of the constituents of tumeric and is responsible for the spice's yellow color. It has been used in Indian medicine for ~4000 years to treat a variety of ailments. Recently, research has begun at an alarming rate, investigating curcumin's potential as an anti-oxidant, anti-inflammatory, anti-depressant, and anti-cancer drug. And the research is promising.

It should be noted that curcumin's bioavailability is quite low, but ingesting large doses may circumvent any problems with absorption. Moreover, ingestion with piperine has been shown to increase absorption by approximately an order of magnitude. (Couldn't find a good citation, but mention of this is widespread in peer-reviewed articles.) Moreover, recent efforts have begun to encapsulate curcumin in lipid solvents, thereby improving absorption. It's not clear to me whether lipid-solubilized capsules are an effective delivery method, but I know LEF sells such a product.

I confess my introduction with curcumin is fairly recent, so the following is a limited overview of its research, but I hope to inspire further discussion, investigation, and debate. At any rate, enough ado, let's get down to business.

Cancer

It's rare to see a drug that is shown, in study after study, to have remarkable and significant anti-cancer properties both in vivo and in vitro. But curcumin is such a drug, and it induces tumor apoptosis with no apparent toxicity. 

To get just a sampling of how thoroughly curcumin has been studies in cancer over the past few years, consider the following.

(PMID: 20145189) Curcumin has shown activity against oral cancers. Remarkably, curcumin arrests the growth of immortalized normal cells and malignant cells, but not normal oral cells.

(PMID: 20127174) Curcumin sensitizes lung cancer cells to apoptosis by reducing expression of Bcl-2, an anti-apoptotic signaling molecule.

(PMID: 19898931) Curcumin and piperine, both separately and in combination, inhibit breast stem cell self-renewal, but do not cause toxicity to differentiated cells. This action may prevent breast cancer.

(PMID: 16584595) Curcumin reduces BDNF, inhibits TrkB expression, and reduces angiogenesis (which is stimulated by BDNF) in multiple myeloma cells. This is the first of many paradoxical results, as curcumin has been shown to increase BDNF in chronic stress.

(PMID: 20387230) Curcumin induces apoptosis in oral cancer cells.

(PMID: 20358476) Curcumin causes mitochondrial damage to prostate cancer cells, leading to apoptosis.

(PMID: 20305684) Curcumin treatment enhanced the ability of effector T cells to kill cancer cells in vitro.

(PMID: 20332461) Curcumin induces apoptosis in brain cancer cells.

(PMID: 20044614) Curcumin induces cell death in bone cancer cells.

(PMID: 20032896) Curcumin is effective against leukemia; abstract notes that tumor cells are more sensitive to the effects of curcumin than are normal cells.

(PMID: 19901561) Phase I trial of curcumin, combined with chemotherapy, in breast cancer in humans. Curcumin given orally at 500mg/day and escalated from there. 6000mg/day was most effective, and curcumin seemed to improve efficacy.

(PMID: 20373902) Curcumin induces apoptotis in melanoma cells through a mitochondrial pathway.

(PMID: 20393484) Curcumin induces apoptotis in T-cell lymphoma cells by inhibiting STAT-3 and NF-kappaB.

(PMID: 20077433) Curcumin inhibits lung cancer growth in vivo.

(PMID: 20363232) Curcumin restrains cancer cell growth by suppressing activity of telomerase, and this study suggests it does so by (paradoxical) ROS production.

(PMID: 20360934) Curcumin promotes apoptosis in esophageal cancer.

(PMID: 20057137) Curcumin inhibits inosine monophosphate dehydrogenase, a therapeutic target for anti-cancer therapy and key step in DNA synthesis.

Summary Curcumin shows activity (in a mix of in vivo and in vitro studies) in esophageal cancer, lung cancer, melanoma, lymphoma, breast cancer, leukemia, bone cancer, brain cancer, prostate cancer, and oral cancer. And this is just a sampling of the literature.

It seems that curcumin's effects are mediated by a variety of factors, ranging from a reduction in Bcl-2 (an anti-apoptotic protein), inhibition of STAT-3 and NF-kappaB, increased ROS production in cancer cells, suppression of telomerase activity, and increased T cell efficacy.

Anti-ROS, Injury, Inflammation, and Inflammation-related Disease

Inhibiting NF-kappaB and TNF-alpha is just the beginning for curcumin, as the compound seems to have widespread anti-inflammatory effects.

(PMID: 20227282) Curcumin induces glutathione synthesis.

(PMID: 20132469) Clinically achievable concentrations of curcumin reduced glial activation, inflammation, and cerebral edema following traumatic brain injury in mice.

(PMID: 20018302) In rats with spinal cord injury, curcumin inhibited apoptosis and neuron loss and also "quenched astrocyte activation", improving neural deficit. By attenuating astrocyte activation, curcumin improves neuron survival.

(PMID: 19917353) Curcumin is known to be a potent inhibitor of NF-kappaB and attenuates ischemia-reperfusion injury. In reperfusion injury, curcumin increases glutathione and reduced NO levels (among other effects), reducing inflammatory damage.

(PMID: 16364299) Pre-supplementation (and post-supplementation, possibly to a lesser extent) with curcumin dramatically reduced effects of traumatic brain injury, normalizing levels of BDNF, CREB, and synapsin I.

(PMID: 20214332) Curcumin inhibits fibroblast proliferation, potentially indicating effectiveness against fibrotic disease.

(PMID: 20180411) In rat chronic nonbacterial prostatitis, curcumin lowers TNF-alpha and IL-8, leading to amelioration of symptoms.

(PMID: 20125031) Curcumin protects myocardium against ischemic injury.

(PMID: 20056736) Curcumin protects against arsenic-induced DNA damage by reducing ROS generation and lipid peroxidation and increasing antioxidant activity.

(PMID: 19878610) Curcumin may have efficacy against inflammatory bowel disease. Curcumin enhances IL-10 and reduces IL-1beta.

(PMID: 20112103) Curcumin has hepatoprotective potency by reducing lipid peroxidation and increasing GSH, CAT, and SOD. Indeed, curcumin (but not resveratrol) is effective against aflatoxin-induced liver injury.

(PMID: 20056776) Curcumin inhibits pneumonia-related lung inflammation without decreasing bacterial load, and may combine very well with antibiotics. (Curcumin reduced TNF-alpha, NO, and other inflammatory mediators.)

(PMID: 19932168) Curcumin may help prevent cataracts by limiting free-radical induced Ca2+ influx in the eye.

(PMID: 20188213) At least in mice, curcumin may treat arthritis by reducing TNF-alpha, IL-1beta, and serum IgG2. By inhibiting NF-kappaB, curcumin also inhibited PGE2 production and COX-2 expression.

(PMID: 20080166) Curcumin exerts hepatoprotective actions against ethanol.

(PMID: 20229497) In merucury-exposed rats, curcumin reduces mercury-associatd oxidative stress and its serum markers. Curcumin also reduced tissue mercury concentrations. Curcumin may be both an effective treatment and pre-treatment to mercury exposure.

(PMID: 20026275) In rats given streptozotocin (a toxin), curcumin prevents memory deficit and normalizes elevated AChE levels in the hippocampus. Curcumin also attenuated reduced glutathione levels in the cortex and hippocampus due to the toxin. Finally, curcumin also restored insulin receptor protein levels altered by the toxin.

(PMID: 20025056) Curcumin is protective against selenium toxicity in the liver and kidney by means of regulating iNOS expression.

(PMID: 16387899) A good review summarizing effects of curcumin. Curcumin inhibits NF-kappaB, COX-2, LOX, and iNOS.

(PMID: 19919835) Curcumin can prevent acetominophen overdose-induced damage to kidney and renal cells.

(PMID: 20026325) Curcumin may have therapeutic potential in dry eye disease.

Summary Curcumin protects the liver against ethanol, may heal dry eye disease, prevents acetominophen toxicity, protects against selenium, mercury, and arsenic toxicity, has shown efficacy against arthritis, may prevent cataracts, may reduce sickness-associated inflammation, reduces liver inflammation, may have efficacy against inflammatory bowel disease, reduces inflammation in prostatitis, reduces damage due to ischemia/reperfusion, reduces the effects of traumatic brain injury (both in preventative and treatment capacities), increases glutathione, and improves neuron survival in spinal cord injury.

It accomplishes these remarkable and diverse feats by increasing glutathione, inhibiting NF-kappaB, inhibiting PGE2 and COX-2, reducing TNF-alpha, IL-8, and IL-1beta, scavenging ROS, reducing iNOS and nitric oxide, increases catalase and superoxide dismutase expression, increasing IL-10, reducing TGF-beta1 activation, reducing astrocyte activation in traumatic brain injury, and normalizing brain levels of BDNF and CREB.

Yikes.

Next Up: Stress, other benefits, and potentially dangers and drawbacks of curcumin.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Stress and Depression

Curcumin has shown remarkable efficacy in reducing the neurological consequences of chronic stress. Many of these benefits seem to derive from increased BDNF expression, but there may also be other mechanisms at work. At any rate, curcumin may have potential as both an antidepressant and an "adaptogen".

(PMID: 19879308) Curcumin increases BDNF and CREB.

(PMID: 17022948) Chronic stress increased plasma corticosterone and reduced GR expression, and these changes were reversed by curcumin administration. Chronic stress also reduced BDNF levels and pCREB/CREB ratio in the hippocampus and frontal cortex of rats. Curcumin blocked these effects.

(PMID: 18766332) Curcumin showed antidepressant effects in mice, increased 5-HT and DA (at higher doses) levels, and (at higher doses) inhibited both MAO-A and MAO-B. Curcumin also appears to synergize with SSRI and NRI antidepressants, but not tricyclics. Coadministration of piperine (known to increase bioavailability) enhanced effects.

(PMID: 17942093) Curcumin has anti-depressant like effects in the forced swimming test. These effects appear to be mediated by alterations in 5-HT1A/1B and 5-HT2C. More specifically, both 5-HT1A and 5-HT1B antagonism separately blocks the effects of curcumin, but 5-HT1A agonism, 5-HT1B agonism, and 5-HT2C antagonism synergize with the effects of curcumin. Thus curcumin may act, directly or indirectly, as a 5-HT1A/1B agonist and a 5-HT2C antagonist. This is very good.

(PMID: 17846884) Ethanol withdrawal did not restore rhythmicity or levels of 5-HT or 5-HIAA in the SCN of male rats, but curcumin administration partially restored 5-HT/5-HIAA ratio and daily phase shifts. This may have relevance for circadian rhythm disruptions.

(PMID: 17846884) Rats subjected to chronic mild stress developed increased TNF-alpha and IL-6 levels, as well as reduced NK cell counts. These rats also showed increased CRH and serum cortisol, without an elevation in ACTH. Administration of curcumin reversed these effects, demonstrating antidepressant-like effects.

(PMID: 17617388) Curcumin increases hippocampal neurogenesis in chronically stressed rats in a way similar to imipramine. Curcumin also prevented stress-induced reductions in 5-HT1A mRNA and BDNF levels in the hippocampus.

These last two studies are strange; they are in vitro studies in bovine adrenocortical cells, but show largely opposite actions of curcumin on cortisol. Not sure what to think, and haven't had time to analyze them.

(PMID: 18406348) In bovine adrenocortical cells, curcumin increased cortsiol secretion, and this increase lasted for 24 hours. Secretion was increased as much as 10-fold. This was accomplished by curcumin inhibition of bTREK1 K+ channels.

(PMID: 19653644) Also in bovine adrenocortical cells, curcumin decreased ACTH-induced cortisol secretion as well as angiotensin-II-induced cortisol secretion. (Contradicts another study.)

Summary Curcumin prevents stress-induced reductions in 5-HT1A and BDNF in the cortex and hippocampus, normalizes stress-induced increases in TNF-alpha and IL-6, reduces stress-induced increases in serum corticosterone, negates stress-induced downregulation of GR expression, restores disturbed 5-HT circadian rhythm consequent to ethanol withdrawal, increases BDNF and CREB, shows considerable antidepressant efficacy, and may directly or indirectly be a 5-HT1A/1B agonist and 5-HT2C antagonist.

Insulin, Skeletal Muscle, Fat, and Metabolism

Though the data are, my comparison, scant, curcumin also seems to have positive effects on blood lipids, insulin sensitivity, fat cells, and skeletal muscle.

(PMID: 20227862) Curcumin dose-dependently decreases lipids and glucose in diabetic rats. Curcumin also increased AMPK both in vivo and in vitro. Thus curcmin improves insulin resistance in rat skeletal muscle.

(PMID: 20222050) Curcumin reduced insulin and leptin in frucrose-fed rats. Thus curcumin led to improved leptin and insulin signaling as well as PPAR alpha expression. It also reduced LDL cholesterol and tryglycerides.

(PMID: 20205235) Another study noting curcumin activates AMPK in skeletal muscle, leading to increased glucose uptake.

(PMID: 10444409) Curcumin acts directly on muscle cells to stimulate proliferation. Inhibitors of NF-kappaB, like curcumin, also stimulate muscle differentiation in vitro. Curcumin has a "striking" effect on myogenesis and accelerated healing after injury.

(PMID:19093868) AMPK activation by curcumin may inhibit both cancer cell and adipocyte differentiation.

(PMID: 20357182) Curcumin suppresses adipogenesis.

(PMID: 20395228) Curcumin appears to have hypoglycemic action and stimulates insulin secretion from pancreatic cells, suggesting potential efficacy in diabetes.

Summary Curcumin has hypoglycemic action, likely by a combination of reducing insulin sensitivity and increasing pancreatic insulin output; the compound may thus have anti-diabetic activity. Moreover, curcumin activates AMPK (leading to improved glucose uptake in muscle), suppresses adipogenesis, inhibits adipocyte differentiation, stimulates skeletal muscle proliferation (with a "striking" effect on myogenesis), speeds healing after injury, improves insulin and leptin signaling, increases PPAR-alpha expression, and reduces both LDL cholesterol and triglycerides.

Other Good Stuff

And yet, curcumin has further positive effects.

(PMID: 20040737) Curcumin inhibits TRPV1-mediated hyperalgesia/pain hypersensitivity, but does not inhibit heat-induced TRPV1 currents. (Curcumin may have direct action at TRPV1.)

(PMID: 20153625) Curcumin activates the nuclear vitamin D receptor, and this receptor has been associated with chemoprotection against intestinal cancers.

(PMID: 20026048) Curcumin has anti-viral activity against influenza, adenovirus, coxsackievirus, and HIV. This study further showed that curcumin reduces hepatitis C gene expression through the Akt-SREBP-1 pathway.

(PMID: 20017731) Curucmin has anti-fungal properties against Candida via generation of oxidative stress. Curcumin's effects were prevented by the addition of anti-oxidants. (Excessive doses used?)

(PMID: 18420184) Glutamate excitotoxicity reduced BDNF and reduced cell viability; pretreatment with curcumin prevented these effects. However, a Trk (BDNF receptor) receptor inhibitor blocked these effects, suggesting that the neuroprotective effects of curcumin are mediated by BDNF/TrkB.

(PMID: 19033880) Curcumin abolished upregulation of BDNF transcription and morphine analgesic tolernance after administration of morphine for six days.

(PMID: 20369229) Curcumin inhibits the effects of streptozotocin-induced dementia through PPAR-gamma activation.

(PMID: 20230279) Curcumin reduces DA cell death consequent to application of MPTP. Importantly, this effect is not due exclusively to anti-inflammatory or anti-oxidant activity; rather, curcumin inhibits phosphorylation of JNK1/2 and c-Jun, leading to increased DA neuron survival.

(PMID: 20209961) "Several animal gastric ulcer models prove that curcumin SDs has anti-gastric ulcer effects by inhibiting gastric acid secretion, reducing gastric juice acidity, inhibiting the activity of pepsin and promoting healing of ulcer."

(PMID: 20337222) Another study showing curcumin has activity against gastric ulcers.

(PMID: 20170701) Here's one for ATB: curcumin prevents against genotoxic effects of arsenic and flouride. 

(PMID: 20346917) Curcumin enhances retinoic acid-induced superoxide radical generating activity, and thus may be an immune potentiator.

Summary Curcumin potentiates the immune system, prevents against genotoxic effects of flouride and arsenic, prevents and treats gastric ulcers, reduces DA cell death upon administration of DA neurotoxin (and do so through more than just anti-inflammatory pathways), reduces tolerance to morphine, provides neuroprotection against glutamate excitotoxicity, shows anti-fungal properties, shows anti-viral properties, is a vitamin D receptor agonist, and may reduce certain types of hyperalgesia.

Next Up: The downsides of curcumin and some review articles.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

The Caveats

At this point, curcumin has mostly been shown to have no known toxicity and very few negative effects. Still, there are a handful of studies that are worthy of mention.

(PMID: 20029958) Like many other antioxidants, low doses of curcumin scavange ROS, but higher doses may induce ROS and lead to damage. This was seen in a rat model of myocardial necrosis.

(PMID: 11815407) Curcumin is extensively metabolized in the GI tract. Not necessarily a bad thing, but could lead to variable effects.

(PMID: 20346654) Curcumin has some activity at inhibiting 17beta-HSD3, the enzyme catalyzing the final step of testosterone biosynthesis. It is unclear how substantial this effect is, however it could potentially lead to reduced testosterone levels.

(PMID: 19879924) In vitro, curcumin increases LRRK2 mRNA and protein. LRRK2 is a gene whose expression has been positively assocaited with Parkinson's disease. This could, in theory, lead to increased risk of Parkinson's disease, but this is also just a single factor out of many.

(PMID: 20198619) Letter with concerns: curcumin may induce DNA damage in vitro and in vivo and may have carcinogenic activity. Curcumin dissolved in water does not bind to DNA, though in solution with ethanol it does. It is not clear if these effects are due to curcumin, curcumin + ethanol, or ethanol. However, the letter suggests that these counter-results may not be appropriate, and curcumin may actually be genotoxic.

(PMID: 20198612) Paper referenced above showing curcumin dissolved in water does not bind or intercalate with DNA. However, doses were low and ROS generation could still result in DNA damage without binding.

Summary In short, there is a speck of evidence to suggest curcumin could increase Parkinson's risk and there is some [controversial] evidence that may suggest curcumin could cause genotoxic damage. Moreover, like other ROS scavengers, excessively high doses of curcumin may actually create ROS. It is not clear if these are the same doses as used in the cancer studies.

Other Noteworthy Studies and Reviews

(PMID: 20087857) Curcumin easily crosses the BBB. Moreover, curcumin inhibits glioma-induced angiogenesis, again suggesting efficacy in brain cancer.

(PMID: 20172017) Curcumin appears to activate M1 muscarinic receptors.

(PMID: 20388102) Review suggesting that curcumin, by blocking NF-kappaB, may slow down aging.

(PMID: 20100380) Extensive review.

(PMID: 20205886) Review of curcumin and age-related disease.

Conclusion

Well, that's a wrap. Obviously an insane amount of information to read, but hopefully the summaries suffice for those with a cursory interest.

The vast majority of studies here were either in vitro or in rats. Only a handful of human studies of curcumin exist and, while these show a great deal of potential, they mostly involve the compound's effects on cancer. Still, there is a truly extraordinary amount of evidence in favor of curcumin's effects on numerous physiological systems with very little evidence pointing to side effects. This is quite a remarkable finding for a compound that cannot be patented or sold by pharmaceutical companies.

I'd be interested in hearing any experiences with curcumin and/or discussing its potential. For those of you with "adrenal fatigue" (whatever that means) who have tried numerous other options, curcumin may well be worth a try.

Copied from ex dubio on mind and muscle:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=41876


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Dude, I've got an idea. How's about a break of the meds/drug and go completely baseline. Like eating well,supplementation,exercise and getting in touch with nature, as I know that is both very spiritual to both of us. Asses the situation and add meds slowly as needed. Or just keep being your own lab rat!! Necrosis is not something to just flippantly shrug off and forget.Neither is heart arrhythmia.
Just a word of caution from a friend!!

"I've got no where to go. I hang out on the streets my folks say I've got no ambition.At least I give a s*** about the stuff I eat.Yeah I care about nutrition. Nutrition ,its Vita.C, nutrition, its good for me .I care, I care,I care; Lets go down to the hardcore show and see S.O.D", yo! 
- Dead Milkmen


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

^^ Turns out my infection is causing all that and its rapidly pretty much gone thx to the medication ive got prescribed for that, as soon my infection is completely gone there's no need for that, just a couple mor days tough, till my meds fully kicked in. (turns out amp while sick caused dangerous blood pressure increases)


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Curcumin + resveratrol > Vit C heheh (i started the health part)


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Love ya Wes!!!!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Love ya too mate!!


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

Whatever rights your ship, dude!!!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

lol


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Srry for the late reply's guys, been rather busy, will reply everything back asap that pmed or contacted me, also if i dont appear online on MSN anymore send me a pm!! looks like my msn blocked everyone without it showing so i have to block ands unblock ppl individually to get them back online!!

A few reviews on methoxetamine.



> Pretty much as the title. I've found that a *very* small dose (5-10mg) sublingually, roughly every 2-3 hours, gives me an incredible ability to focus on work, and (possibly due to the dissociative effects) almost completely inhibits my social anxiety which has been pretty much crippling my work and ability to socialise for the last, oh I dunno, 29 years... (!)





> I'm curious about this too, I find that MXE has the potential to give me pristine clarity and focus, and it has actually been helping me learn some stuff, since I can practice for hours on it and it feels like my memory retains everything.
> It also leaves me with more optimism and motivation than anything I have ever tried before, it feels like a miracle in many ways. I've tried all manner of anti-depressants in the past, as well as nootropics, yet none can rival the clarity and pure motivation the afterglow of MXE leaves me with.





> I've been using it too often for there to be a long enough gap to give a real approximate length of time of the afterglow, but I can say that 2 days after dosing I tend to start feeling like my old self - despite that, MXE still has given me a long introspective tour which has put me off bad habits and such of mine, which I believe should persist beyond the afterglow.
> I feel as though with therapeutic use it could help change my life for the better, but I can't resist the urge to use it recreationally.
> 
> And yes, I do get a slight comedown, but not an entirely unpleasant one. It's mostly due to dehydration, and sore muscles due to moving around too much, other than that, the transition from "tripping" to sober is extremely smooth, if anything I find the comedown to be the most productive part of the chemical, since this is when I can actually start doing tasks efficiently, while still having the euphoria and motivation without the disassociation.
> ...


Il be using tiny bumps during the day, probably 5-10mg sublingual every 3 hours, lets see how it will work against tolerance.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ive started the notice the effects of taking drugs without NMDA antagonists, i normally take around 100ml GBL a week (without any tolerance or dependency, due to a combination of taking enough hours off wich can be done with its short half life and enough nmda antagonism for the tolerance, wich should also help slow dependency).

After i ran out of memantine (and didnt take curcumin anymore, altough im not sure wheter it works with GHB) i started getting tolerant to GHB to the point where i barely noticed any effects except sedation! My GABAB and GHB receptors where downregulated alot due to the lack of mem, without G i noticed the following effects:

- Was feeling less comfortable when sitting down, altough i never feel quite comfortable because of ADHD and anhedonia wich is damn anoying.
- Felt uncomfortable when taking stims on their own, more then usual and in lower doses.

Both can be attributed to downregulation of those receptors, there's no real withdrawal going on wich ive allways avoided, altough withdrawal and aftereffects due to receptor downregulation are quite simular, tough withdrawal is associated with glutamate hyperactivity.
So i'm gonna do the following:

- Currently taking a break of GBL to let my receptors upregulate
- Add in a NMDA antagonist to accelerate the upregulation
- Replace GBL with a benzo for now, will only do this for 2 weeks MAXIMUM as benzo dependency cant be avoided like with GBL. 2 weeks with low doses of MXE should reverse tolerance enough IMO.

Taking drugs without NMDA antagonism is a bad idea.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Trying AMT + 3FMC today and first results are excellent, i prefer 3FMC to dexedrine for therapeutic use and it seems to synergize nicely with AMT unlike Dex.

Also taking curcumin, resveratrol and cardevolol.


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## n95 (Jul 17, 2010)

*My reply*

while ketamine analogue is a subject of discussion, it wouldn't be bad to mention this article

http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/12/29/nimh-names-top-10-paths-to-progress-in-2010/22157.html

Top Ten Paths of Progress, or TTPoP how I like to call it, mkay?

It says ketamine "rapidly activates mTOR" which in addition, is somehow, too boringly to understand, connected to that Indian yellow spice Crazy mentioned earlier.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes, ketamine induces rapid synaptogenesis, its a wonderfull drug for depression, tough the downside is that the effects arent long lasting, only for a few weeks.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

crazymed sometimes I think it is a miracle that you're still alive.. 

One day the wrong combo could knock you on your ***. 

Be careful


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> crazymed sometimes I think it is a miracle that you're still alive..
> 
> One day the wrong combo could knock you on your ***.
> 
> Be careful


I beleive there is a tremendous ammount of compounds with a incredible therapeutic potential is allready available, i even think there isnt much need anymore for developping new meds, rather i would say there's a need to investigate the safety of several compounds, ive allways been intrigued by the therapeutic potential of those chemicals.

That said i'm extremely picky when it comes to side effects, and with those compounds i can be pretty much side effect free, and also go back to baseline whenever i want.

I did mess up my health for the past 2 months basicly i think by supressing my immume system too much, i started adding random differend meds and a steroid cycle to the mix combined with alot of recreational drug use wich resulted in me not being able to function for allmost 3 months due to a severe infection, wich is now pretty much cleared up, hence i'l be active more again.
This wasnt the result of rc's tough but my own reckless behavor.


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## TheoBobTing (Jul 8, 2010)

Keep up the good work, as long as you don't damage yourself. Someone's got to take an interest in learning about the finer biological details of social phobia, and god knows many psychiatrists don't really give a damn, including the last one I saw, who decided that an anti-psychotic would be best for my S.A.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Yeah i would be careful man, all it takes is once wrong mix and your dead, just like that. I have had some close calls and you do much crazier **** than i do.

Also to the poster above, antipsychotics arnt that bad for SA believe or not and some people could prob be helped by them. Personally the long term effects are prob not worth it but same goes for benzodiazepines.


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## Under17 (May 4, 2010)

What do you think of L-Dopa? Ex Dubio seems to think highly of it.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Under17 said:


> What do you think of L-Dopa? Ex Dubio seems to think highly of it.


Good to kills the rats.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> Yeah i would be careful man, all it takes is once wrong mix and your dead, just like that. I have had some close calls and you do much crazier **** than i do.
> 
> Also to the poster above, antipsychotics arnt that bad for SA believe or not and some people could prob be helped by them. Personally the long term effects are prob not worth it but same goes for benzodiazepines.


Comparing benzo's to extreme dangerous antipsychotics? Allright you can start acting like me mum, id gladly take the addiction.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Comparing benzo's to extreme dangerous antipsychotics? Allright you can start acting like me mum, id gladly take the addiction.


The atypicals arnt that bad really and theres no withdrawl. I wouldnt call them all that dangerous although maybe the typicals are.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> Yeah i would be careful man, all it takes is once wrong mix and your dead, just like that. I have had some close calls and you do much crazier **** than i do.
> 
> Also to the poster above, antipsychotics arnt that bad for SA believe or not and some people could prob be helped by them. Personally the long term effects are prob not worth it but same goes for benzodiazepines.


Problem is i allways have to push it, a few months ago i allways got allergic shock reactions requoring me to take an inhaler to be able to keep breating (apperantly that one i had worked agains allergic reactions according to pubmed so tried it and it did appear to work) offcourse i came up with a system like dose 0,2mg gbl at a time so i can prevent a reaction, till i dosed 0,3 and started choking, then had to manage to keep my lungs upen again and other ****, only after to take some more amp, gbl and other **** to nearly die again.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> The atypicals arnt that bad really and theres no withdrawl. I wouldnt call them all that dangerous although maybe the typicals are.


Serieusly if one doc ever suggested them to me it would be hard not to get offensive! You should see what happened to me my mum because of antipsychotic garbage! She has to cry when the phone wring because she can barely talk! Very fun!


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Serieusly if one doc ever suggested them to me it would be hard not to get offensive! You should see what happened to me my mum because of antipsychotic garbage! She has to cry when the phone wring because she can barely talk! Very fun!


I agree i dont like them, i wont be taking one ever again.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> I agree i dont like them, i wont be taking one ever again.


You should see my mum dude, one year later its still the same, its horrible ****!!


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Thought this would be an appropriate time to sneak in a further underscore that... regardless of how much night-and-day difference they can make, pharms and substances only solve their part of the problem (coming from someone who once believed they could fix everything on their own ;P). If correctly handled, they will ideally reverse your symptomology, but getting to the core of everything is still up to the inner you.

And that isn't just speculation or "some opinion" either, it's solid truth that I can confidently say applies to each and every one of us as human beings... it's the dimension of learned self-actualization/betterment. For some, pharmaceutical approaches will do more perceived good than for others initially (especially in genetic predispositions being reversed with specifically-targetted agents!), but even for those folks, there is so much learning to be done about the yoga of everything that I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about the vastness of the topic while typing this. ;P

Alas, over-romanticized wording aside, I've actually been looking into the psychiatric fields lately (thinking about what to do for med school etc.), and finding nothing but distaste... pharms being misused/misprescribed, mostly because of this oddly predominant belief that, even with an incredibly complex system like our brain, we can actually make pinpointed changes in our living-condition(s) by simply altering chemistry/fuel. Which is again, at best, only its half of the equation.


Heh... I know it's a bit rambly/random/redundant -- and hopefully won't be taken as lamesauce lecturing  but something about Under17's curiosity with the L-Dopa statement sort of just took me back a bit and compelled me to write this out.

As always, best of luck w/ any anecdotal research, folks. Mine's been going somewhat steady... will post some stuff in the near future if I come across anything that seems relevant-to-many. Now if there was only some way for me to write out all the random psychology-related insights that I stumble across every day; but if I kept up with that, I'd probably fall asleep from exhaustion/typing.. :/ so here's to finding a proper balance there first, heh.

cheers!
-z


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

"If correctly handled, they will ideally reverse your symptomology, but getting to the core of everything is still up to the inner you."

I agree mate, meds can take away sa, but i'l still stay inside most of the time, the only way to get prosocial is to actively go out, wich after a while makes you want to go outside.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

In low bumps MXE doesnt help my sa much or boost my mood all that much, altough my mood is pretty good on its own!

Been combining low bumps with AMT but the last 2 days i got really tired when the amt kicked in, it seems to block the dopamine release while leaving the serotonine release so it works identically to mdai wich allways made me damn tired.

Took AMT on its own, i seem to have gotten some tolerance to the positive effects, i just took some MXE, lets see how it works after the AMT kicked in.

AMT is still working solid against OCD and still reduces my SA as much as initially, its just the dopamine push to talk alot more ive gotten tolerant tough, lets see wheter MXE can reverse that tolerance8)

I am thinking about the following supplement stack:

Curcumin
Resveratrol
Eklonia cava (probably bad spelling haha)
Rhodiola

I'm also interested in trying selegiline with AMT, see how it would potentiate the dopaminergic effects.

Currently i'm taking curcumin (500mg by jarrow).

I'm out of 3FMC at the moment, will readd it soon, currently only on curcumin, AMT and MXE.

I pretty much found my cure with 3FMC added, just need to start going out with friends more right now!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

crayzyMed said:


> just need to start going out with friends more right now!


Wich is gonna happen soon heheh:


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Crazymed, 

Please, slow down man! 

"steroid cycle" => I'm sure you prob already know that this is the most likely culprit for any immune suppression you experienced. Amla and kefir are the only 2 things I've found that noticeably help immunity. They aren't exactly easy either.. Amla tastes sour and kefir can sometimes help if you don't have allergies.

You can also just eat Arame if you want to try Ecklonia spp., it's more of a food than a supplement. Arame is my preferred... Irradiated rats always comes to mind when I think about seaweed, Chernobyl makes seaweed a yummy treat.

Resveratrol isn't terribly exciting in producing noticeable results, IMO. 

Curcumin is alright but has low bioavailability as you prob already know. Longvida has a nano curcumin product I've been eyeing for the longest time but haven't yet tried.

Rhodiola... well IMO is just an advanced sugar pill. tastes like *** too

--------------------------------

I don't know if any of that will help but you never know.

I'm curious about lisdexamfetamine.. perhaps you (ie CrazyMed) knows of a way to keep amphetamine tolerance and toxicity at bay? Do you have any issues with insomnia? I'm afraid I'd just rob peter to pay paul by using amfetamines due to stims skull raping my ability to sleep. If it wasn't for these worries then lisdex would probably be worth a trial for me. I completely bombed my trial with methylphenidates... while it made me more talkative it made it hard to sleep.. 

Heck you're the guy to ask about amph's. Any advice?

ps not sure what you mean by "3FMC" but hey, ive never tried AMT either, and don't think I would.. Amph stims seem toxic enough.. I think you're definitely on the right path adding some antioxidant phytos to your routine to help counteract toxicity from the AMT and other subs.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Keeping amp tolerance at bay is easily done with memantine, toxiticy if you consider that an issue can probably be kept at bay with curcumin, while its bioavailability is low, its half life in the brain is 24 hours, and a dose of 500mg is sufficient to get all the benefits.

Resveratrol doesnt cause much immediate benefits but it has a ****load of benefits in rodents and is imo togheter with curcumin the best supplement to take.

Rhodiola also has alot of benefits from what ive read, even if i dont really feel much.

Dont really have insomnia, if amp causes that its because it makes it hard to sleep for me.

I mostly add all supplements for good health, tbh im not too concerned about toxiticy caused by amp or AMT, but they can allways help.
I dont have a amp prescription its getting too expensive for me.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Thx for the tips, i'l look into those.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Well as one that has had a weak immune system I've tried everything natural that falls into that category +/- a few..

found about the Amla only by accident, was miserably sick with some **** viral infection, took several grams of it and immediately felt better... its more of a symptomatic treatment... Kefir seems to excel in preventing secondary infections.. I haven't really been seriously ill since I've been using these off and on... I have to admit taking Amla is challenging while Kefir is expensive. Yogurt doesnt do **** for me... I hate how this forum is PG13 ****ing god damnit I want to swear some serious expletives this is some serious gerbil **** that I cant even say something without endless ****'s


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

looking into memantine for kicks, wth...

Recent memantine:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21277908
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21273661
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21255456
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204415
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21199749
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21157021
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21152063
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21155625
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20721537
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20075645
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19586234
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19204653
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19142108

yippy ****in do


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

What's the story behind acamprosate? Is this something you tried?

Personally, drugs can be very hit or miss. My first experience with drugs could have been very negative. But knowing what I know now I typically only have positive experiences.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11369029
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20871985
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20201812
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18838071
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17880925
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=15490768

To read AYO leisure


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Never tried acamprosate but i know someone has long term succes with combining it with memantine for amphetamine tolerance.

Check out my thread on bluelight regarding nmda antagonists and tolerance for more info:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=501875
New experiences showing up on a regular basis.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> looking into memantine for kicks, wth...
> 
> Recent memantine:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21277908
> ...


Interesting study's, thx for posting those.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

http://www.medworksmedia.com/pdf_abstract/V42I1/6-AB_PB_42_01_FEUSNER_09.pdf

You're welcome, ooo I'm sure you already read many of them but new stuff keeps rolling in.. seems like you were onto something and the scientists are finally playing catchup.

Man I gotta get me some more pillz. lol

Would also be interested in your experiences with Amisulpride.. .I dabbled a bit with amisulpride but it felt somewhat like I was just drinking water.. We'll see. I'm not out of ideas yet just too lazy to implement atm

thanks for the link


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Memantine is awesome, helped a lot with my ocd and worked for tolerance to.

What stuff are you on right now?


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

Interesting reading there on bluelight on nmda antagonists and tolerance.... but i came across something a bit offtopic:


> *NMDA antagonists and serotonin*
> 
> (PMID: 9187317) Single doses of MK-801, a non-competitive antagonist of NMDA receptors, increase the number of 5-HT1A serotonin receptors in the rat brain.
> I_t is concluded that single administration of MK-801 may alter the density of serotonergic 5-HT1A receptors and in consequence influence the function of the central nervous system associated with activation of 5-HT1A receptors._


What does it mean? Facilitating of overall 5-HT1-mediated transmission or the opposite?


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

broflovski said:


> Interesting reading there on bluelight on nmda antagonists and tolerance.... but i came across something a bit offtopic:
> 
> What does it mean? Facilitating of overall 5-HT1-mediated transmission or the opposite?


MDMA use also increases 5ht1a receptors by a massive percent, like 30%. I dont see it helping people though...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> MDMA use also increases 5ht1a receptors by a massive percent, like 30%. I dont see it helping people though...


It does that in rodents, accompanied by a bunch of other changes like a 40% decrease in serotonine, and a bunch of other changes so if that occured in humans too youd rather get negative effects, besides that i remember a study showing a 5% serotonine reduction in mdma abusers so this all isnt very relevant to humans taking XTC (we do experience toxiticy in the thalamus and some other brainarea's but nothing like the rodent models).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

broflovski said:


> Interesting reading there on bluelight on nmda antagonists and tolerance.... but i came across something a bit offtopic:
> 
> What does it mean? Facilitating of overall 5-HT1-mediated transmission or the opposite?


It upregulates 5HT1A, wich means that NMDA antagonists should work against tolerance to things that mediate their therapeutic effects by the 5HT1A receptor, its possible nmda antagonists upregulate other serotonine receptors too but i didnt see any references showing either a postive/negative/neurtral effect.

The reason they work against amphetamine tolerance is because they do the same with several dopamine receptors.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> It does that in rodents, accompanied by a bunch of other changes like a 40% decrease in serotonine, and a bunch of other changes so if that occured in humans too youd rather get negative effects, besides that i remember a study showing a 5% serotonine reduction in mdma abusers so this all isnt very relevant to humans taking XTC (we do experience toxiticy in the thalamus and some other brainarea's but nothing like the rodent models).


The thalamus is VERY important in mental illness as it processes sensory information. I sure as hell wouldn't want to damage that....

I think increasing 5ht1a receptors isn't a good thing always.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Ive been on so many things I prob couldn't remember them all without reading notes.. 

Was going cold turkey for awhile, was on zero meds... but it felt pretty lousy so went back on Agomelatine, which helps tremendously.

Just getting back into the swing of using meds. While off meds got back into a deeper rut since I was even too unmotivated to consume pills/supplements on a daily regimen. Better off back on meds I can tell. I just need the extra 75% of my life that's missing. 

Its sad to know solutions but not have the motivation it takes to implement them.. so every once in awhile Amphs once again seem appealing although I know they are a dead end that results in hardened arteries with prolonged use.. 

Directions I'm thinking of taking this (not counting supplements of course):
Continue Agomelatine of course.
Memantine trial? Seems like a better bet if on Amphs or other stims
Vilazodone... Add on amisulpride (see if it combines as nice as the literature says with SSRI's).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> Amphs once again seem appealing although I know they are a dead end that results in hardened arteries with prolonged use..


There's no evidence for this and i certainly wouldnt consider a dead end, in fact i consider it a better long term solution then MAOI's or other stuff.

Amisulpiride is good unfortionally it grow you boobs and i got a permanent tolerance to it.

A memantine trial sounds like a good idea, vilazodone looks like a good antidepressant.

Agomelatine looks excellent, its something i would try myself, generally i never take meds with noticeble side effects and agomelatine is another one that fits in nicely.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"grow you boobs"
lool.. grows u man-boobs... got boobies anyone?

Partial correction:

Well there is maybe some association (ie methamphetamine). But you're right, guilty by association doesn't make amphetamines guilty.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19132558

...It is still a valid concern, although nothing proven, per se

I don't know maybe all the propaganda against drugs has effected my attitude towards stims.. ie, they're hopelessly addictive and you're gonna end up a homeless crack addict frozen to death underneath a bridge in winter if you use them... I mean that's scary stuff we've been told ever since early childhood. Hard to overcome that belief, even if it ends up being true for only a small percentage of users.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Cardiotoxiticy of meth abuse isnt really relevant to therapeutic use of meth or amphetamine. There have been enough study's allready on amp and its cardiovascular effects and all didnt find any significant evidence for harm.

Dude, stims are widely used for ADHD, do you really beleive that nonesense?


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Meh, Memantine's magic is almost too hard to describe in specific receptor effects... ;P but it's certainly awesome, that much is for sure haha.

Testing out its efficacy with Neurontin (Gabapentin) currently... Neurontin's effects are very intriguing in that it apparently (like Pregabalin, its "successor"?) increases glutamic acid decarboxylase activity as a part of its mechanism, which turns more glutamate into GABA, which has been "win" in my book since years ago. 

Results to come later... did ya beat that terrible immunosuppression-caused illness btw, crayzy? :\


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Meth is tremendous harm to dopaminergic systems though... such a flood in all the "wrong" areas, there's definitely no way it can ever be therapeutic IMO (know a few good folks who are pretty much losing their lives to it as we speak, due to initial recreational foolishness), **** has residual effects that carry out wayy long-term after rebound/damage. And is just plain way too habit forming with the crash.

Amphetamines, if used responsibly, do have undeniable benefits (if some of their edge can be taken away, at least ).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> Results to come later... did ya beat that terrible immunosuppression-caused illness btw, crayzy? :\


Yeah i did, flucanozole cleared it all up, it was getting scary, posted this on imminst:


> Why not just get rhid of candida with a antifungal?
> 
> I had the exact same issue, at first it caused extreme exhaustion, untill i started amphetamine (wich supresses the immume system) it got completely out of control, started getting random allergy's and insane bloodpressure causing severe chestpains and other ****, after i stopped amp it kept getting worse and started getting random partional seizures i tought i was gonna die lol, they stopped completely after one day when i started flucanozole and my apetite and energy was coming back, unfortionally after a few days i relapsed back without energy and started getting that seizure feeling again, took a course of high dose flucanozole and quickly everything went away and started feeling like my old self again, its a huge difference actually.
> 
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> Meth is tremendous harm to dopaminergic systems though... such a flood in all the "wrong" areas, there's definitely no way it can ever be therapeutic IMO (know a few good folks who are pretty much losing their lives to it as we speak, due to initial recreational foolishness), **** has residual effects that carry out wayy long-term after rebound/damage. And is just plain way too habit forming with the crash.
> 
> Amphetamines, if used responsibly, do have undeniable benefits (if some of their edge can be taken away, at least ).


Why wouldnt it be possible to use therapeutically? The only reason its more neurotoxic is because of the 5HT release wich causes extra hyperthermia on top of extra dopamine release causing oxidative stress, this isnt relevent to therapeutic doses at all.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Not everyone can use drugs of HEAVY abuse potential as responsibly as crayzyMed... is why. ; ) My friend (not too addictive of a personality or anything) just got SUCKED INTO it, after only trying it as a harmless whim at first. Admittedly, I'm no expert on the subject (or amps in general), so you may be correct in your idea; but as a joke, how does "therapeutic doses" even apply to something you smoke haha.. ;P Also, the crash and residual effects of meth, recreational doses or not, differs quite a bit from the profile of amphetamines, does it not? (He is basically sleeping all day for several days straight while recovering, regardless of supplementing DA etc.)

But yeah... meh, this isn't too important to keep bumping. So it's whatever. ;P


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> Not everyone can use drugs of HEAVY abuse potential as responsibly as crayzyMed... is why. ; ) My friend (not too addictive of a personality or anything) just got SUCKED INTO it, after only trying it as a harmless whim at first. Admittedly, I'm no expert on the subject (or amps in general), so you may be correct in your idea; but as a joke, how does "therapeutic doses" even apply to something you smoke haha.. ;P Also, the crash and residual effects of meth, recreational doses or not, differs quite a bit from the profile of amphetamines, does it not? (He is basically sleeping all day for several days straight while recovering, regardless of supplementing DA etc.)
> 
> But yeah... meh, this isn't too important to keep bumping. So it's whatever. ;P


You dont smoke meth therapeutically, you take it under prescribed doses under the name desoxyn.

Here in europe there's no meth on the streets but we have racemic normal amphetamine as speed, and ive had 3 friends that were addicted to it, i dont see it being much differend to meth, therapeutically the doses are just tiny and under controlled prescribed doses, thats the major difference.
The crash from normal amp is just the same as from meth, its the dose that matters, trust me after the abusing our speed you get the same effects.

I have a very addictive personality myself, but i happen to have never been physically addicted to something, for example i take GBL daily and it just takes not taking it 24/7 to not getting addicted, wich i do without problem, altough some ppl are complarely unable to do it so maybe i'm not that bad, still a ton worse then most ppl.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"smoke meth therapeutically"... priceless

"Hold on, its time for me to shoot up between me toes. Just one minute!"

But seriously now. We all know that Amphs aren't without risk.

Now, to get back on track:

I wonder what therapeutic role memantine's D2 agonism plays, if any.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18000814

For more practical purposes.. I'm in serious need of something else IN ADDITION to agomelatine. While I get considerable relief from Ago alone, it just doesn't seem to be enough.

Add-ons I am considering:
->Vilazodone (come around March)
->Memantine (Crayzy makes an excellent case for this substance and so does the litereature). Anecdotal: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041123/msgs/420564.html
->Lisdexamfetamine?

Amisulpride???: yes, I've tried it before, it didn't seem to do all that much I could notice.. literature supports combination with SSRI (theorized from 5-ht7 antagonism).. True at this dosage it is probably a man will develop ***** tits, glad you reminded me of that one.. I'll be sure to pick up a Bro with size C cups along with my amisulpride if I choose this route.

Adding references, bc references are good:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21112746
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21154393
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21210319

Plethora of ruled out substances:
Selegiline in all its various formulations: this **** is toxic, they should change its name to Sludgeline
Methylphenidate in various formulations
Tianeptine, etc, etc & so many other chill pills not worth mentioning.

But hey if you got any suggestions I'm all ears.

Please comment away.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> But seriously now. We all know that Amphs aren't without risk.


Offcourse, but i refer to therapeutic doses of adderall or desoxyn in humans for example for ADHD, that has little relevance to smoking meth or snorting racemid street amp!

I highly suggest memantine dude, besides working on its own, it has been shown to synergize with SSRI's.
It also works for tolerance, so it gives you te option to use lisdexamphetamine on a "as needed" basis.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

What are your issues? depression and SA? Do you have OCD? Anything else?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

The role of glutamate in anxiety and related disorders.
Human clinical drug trials have demonstrated the efficacy of glutamatergic drugs for the treatment of obsessive-compulsive disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, *and social phobia. Recent data from magnetic resonance imaging studies provide an additional link between the glutamate system and anxiety. *Collectively, the data suggest that future studies on the mechanism of and clinical efficacy of glutamatergic agents in anxiety disorders are appropriately warranted.

High-field MRS study of GABA, glutamate and glutamine in social anxiety disorder: response to treatment with levetiracetam.
Our findings provide preliminary support for impaired GABAergic and overactive glutamatergic function in social anxiety disorder and the potential relevance of changes in these systems for the anxiolytic response to levetiracetam.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Sorry about not supplying the obvious information:

Diagnosed 10 years ago: MDD

Self-observations: Moderate to severe insomnia, obsessive tendencies (but likely NOT full blown OCD), fatigue (formerly with infection, but found solutions to preventing majority of infections), lack of motivation (started when full-fledged MDD first began 10 years ago, before this I was a relatively motivated person carrying out tasks to completion, etc, etc).

Those are sort of listed in order of severity. Obviously insomnia could be an aggravating condition, but Agomelatine helps this a lot.

I'm thinking an Amph like lisdex may be warranted to help improve drive, and if something like memantine could make it a viable strategy I'm definitely paying attention... the only concern would be worse insomnia..

I remember my brother in law saying I seemed much more outgoing and fun when I was trialing dexmethylphenidate... but it unfortunately had horrible crash with insomnia so I discontinued that rubbish

Thanks Crayzy for giving your time and own experiences in the matter

I only know of *two places* to order memantine online.. I don't like physicians since they cost too damn much and rarely know enough to help, only one psychiatrist I've ever met was competent, and I've certainly had better luck finding my own solutions.

As far as my experience with Racetams go... they tend to have a potent mood flattening effect on me, people around me will tell me I'm acting autistic when on them.. long term memory recall improves but thats about all I've noticed from racetam family.. the fat soluble racetams make me feel too odd.

I wonder what makes this drug so expensive? Is it hard to synthesize?

Concerning social anxiety I think I might be in denial. I've withdrawn much from creating new friends meeting new people. I don't know what my motivation is for this.. I don't feel excessively uncomfortable around people, although it isn't something I'd seek out either.

Also is there a preferred brand for memantine? 
Exiba?
Axura?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

What symptons got improved and how much remission did you achieve with agomelatine?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> I remember my brother in law saying I seemed much more outgoing and fun when I was trialing dexmethylphenidate... but it unfortunately had horrible crash with insomnia so I discontinued that rubbish
> 
> Thanks Crayzy for giving your time and own experiences in the matter
> 
> I only know of one place to order memantine online.. I don't like physicians since they cost too damn much and rarely know enough to help,


Memantine helps a ton with the crash of stimulants, also you can take a small break like every week without much withdrawal, that way you will avoid getting dependent and can make sure it will work long term.

Np mate, i'm glad i may be able to help.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> I only know of one place to order memantine online.. I don't like physicians since they cost too damn much and rarely know enough to help, only one psychiatrist I've ever met was competent, and I've certainly had better luck finding my own solutions.


Agreed, psychiatrists generally barely know anything, if ssri's didnt work for my ocd they would have put me on antipsychitics wich caused a permanent movement disorder in my mum, its really shocking to see, they complately lack knowledge of novel treatments too.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> I wonder what makes this drug so expensive? Is it hard to synthesize?
> 
> Concerning social anxiety I think I might be in denial. I've withdrawn much from creating new friends meeting new people. I don't know what my motivation is for this.. I don't feel excessively uncomfortable around people, although it isn't something I'd seek out either.
> 
> ...


Its expensive because its used for alzheimer, its all business, the generic version is cheap, its not hard to synthesize.

Wanting to go out is something you need to learn, i remember pushing myself to go out with friends every night during the weekdays when i DID really feel uncomfortable around them, and after a while i allways wanted to go out, even tough i felt bad around others, i would call them myself to be able to go out.

Now when my meds work and SA is gone, i dont want to go out at all, i need to relearn this again, wanting to go out is something you can only learn with exposure.

The generic one from sunpharma is good.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Well. The only 2 drugs that have shown success for me have been:

Agomelatine: The most recent (meaning off and on for the last 2-3 years). This helps about as much as ramelteon for sleep onset, it reduces sad thoughts that pop up out of nowhere, and has also improved short term memory noticeably (my brain must have really been fried, so was probably only experiencing this 'benefit' which was only a regaining of lost mental capacity from years of feeling like ****). 

Sertraline: was the first drug I was put on. It helped tremendously (probably more noticeably than any other drug I've used since) for about 3months, then began to go horribly wrong with side effects, etc. So discontinued and never successfully taken an SSRI since (tried escitalopram for a brief stint, but was meant by waves of daytime sleepiness and inability to function, lol, it was like my insomnia problem was almost reversed). The sertraline oddly made it even harder to sleep. Drugs are ****ed up what can I say.

Sucks I cannot find an online vendor I trust for the generic that you recommended, I'm only coming up with brand name memantine and it costs $$$ loads. I wish Apteka1010 was still functioning.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I would try to start with memantine and then add in vilazodone if you need augmention, all 3 should be synergetic too.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Does that generic memantine have a special name or just goes by memantine HCl? 

I wish someone who orders online would chime in. Getting drugs via normal route in USA really sucks sack. I hate this place (usa) its full of morons running everything like a zoo.

What's you're current dosage?

I see target dosage 20mg for Alz... while more being used for other conditions.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I order it online myself, its just called memantine by namenda by sun pharma.

Admenta

Generic Name: Memantine
US. Brand : Namenda
Manufacturer: Sun Pharma 
Strength: 10 mg

30 pills for 10 dollar or something.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> What's you're current dosage?
> 
> I see target dosage 20mg for Alz... while more being used for other conditions.


I took 40mg and in the end tried to go to 60mg, currently not taking it but will again soon, ran out because i was out of money to order more a while ago.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Can you PM pharmacy URL? I'm pretty desperate. lol



----
Thanks Crayzy!


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Vilazodone said:


> For more practical purposes.. I'm in serious need of something else IN ADDITION to agomelatine. While I get considerable relief from Ago alone, it just doesn't seem to be enough.


Interesting... melatonergic agonist with an effect that, compared to melatonin, induces no drowsiness or vigilance loss while retaining antidepressant action?? Pretty much = win if you ask me... 

Any further details/experiences with it?
Also, What didn't work about the tianeptine for you, if I may pry a bit?

I'm really tired so I can't comment & analyze on the other ideas/regimen for now... although if I skimmed correctly about bromocriptine being in there somewhere, I'd throw in my 2 cents to avoid the prolactin increase to begin with instead of adding bromo to your stack just for this: it's quite a strong and prominent substance, and the more side effects you can avoid compounding upon each other - meds to fix other meds - the better off you'll be, IMO. Not to patronize if you're already well-versed on the subject or anything, just sort of throwing it out there in case.. 

Pharmacotherapy ideally helps to rebalance one's state, but no matter what, it's up to you to make the rest of the changes/progress figuring-out  ...in my years, I've come to accept that the chemistry side of things can really only be focused on fuel support -- bringing about states that are conducive for learning new patterns of behavior etc. etc. rather than trying to "do the whole job" magic-pill style.

The surprising majority of issues (even psychosis or anxiety) can seriously be traced down to poorly-habituated 'errors' in existing, whether caused by incorrect learning over the years or genetic predispositions. Proper pharmacological support can help us REALIZE & undo these by rebalancing and re-normalizing cognitive/memory/emotional deficits to allow us to re-learn... but can't be expected to do too much more than that, given the immense complexity of de brainz as a whole. ; ]

---
That said, I agree on at least the memantine idea -- I think it's something worth experiencing (in proper dosage levels for X amount of weeks) for anyone dealing with anhedonia/OCD and a few other categories. Yes, there is the brain fog and some noticeable anticholinergic effects, but they do even out over time, as crayzy will point out... and the good effects of memantine can more than outweigh this anyway.

It mostly comes down to whether those good effects are what you need or not, because for each of them, there are some limits... i.e. - Even the D2-like inspiration effect has never [for me] lasted very long, so IMO there's not as much use for memantine on its own for this aspect... but for stuff like neuroprotection and the tolerance-accural inhibition effects due to consistent gentle NMDA antagonism, memantine is really something indeed -- and if you're working with amps at all, definitely a good thing to keep in the toolbox.

I think I know the site crayzy's talking about, they're good (and it's not a controlled substance or anything, least here in the US). Get the 10's definitely, and start with 5 or 10mg / 2x daily, bumping up steadily and assessing brain-fog etc. Melatonin actually seems to combine quite decently with it to counter any slight stimulant effects at night in the initial dosages, but really, whatever works for you will be fine if anything is needed (though do note that memantine generally potentiates GABAergics*).

Of course, everyone IS vastly different in their chemistry and "settings" (a number of experiences, even on these forums, have illustrated this) so, most of the conclusions we reach here aren't to be taken as more than brainstorming at face value anyway. 

But yeah, best of luck.. keep us posted!

PS - Any recommendations as to reliable sources of this agomelatine..? It's interesting, sadly insurance is such a b**** here.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I took 40mg and in the end tried to go to 60mg, currently not taking it but will again soon, ran out because i was out of money to order more a while ago.


Hmm... got something of a side-note to ponder if you get a chance, crayzy.

Memantine's effect has always been largely one of "restoring appreciation" towards dopamine-drive response, for me... i.e. when I think of something I like, the reward is experienced more profoundly and more emotionally-charged (positive-affect, in a hedonic sense). Meanwhile, the racetams [on their own] have always been notorious for DULLING this for me, evening out emotion and letting much less positive-affect come about.

Recently, however, I noted this (or a similar) dulling effect happening once again during a particular stack that included L-glutamine (*while memantine was also still in it). Do you think that there is some logic to my hypothesis that glutamine could've been responsible for this dulling effect?

Due to being a sort of opposite "shock" effect (as glutamate) at the NMDA sites, ... vs. memantine's antagonism...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Hmm id gues the increased glutamate by it causes some sort of simular effect to racetams.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crazy med, how would you describe your SA. You say that euphoria doesnt help it, that seems weird. Maybe you just dont like socializing?? 

Being euphoric and having anxiety are not really states that can be experienced at once, and if you do then your arnt really that euphoric or you wouldnt notice it. 

Also why do opiates+stimulant not work for your SA??? There is nothing more rewarding than that really ..


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm very extroverted and i love socialising! just stupid i feel so uncomfortable around others, but on stimulant comedowns where there's no more euphoria i'm still sa free and am very extroverted and love it! i get along with everyone and i love talking to people.

Basicly i dont even need euphoria to be fully extroverted, i do seem to need dopamine.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> Also why do opiates+stimulant not work for your SA??? There is nothing more rewarding than that really ..


Stimulants do work, its the opiates that dont add any benefit.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Stimulants do work, its the opiates that dont add any benefit.


I thought you said you got really high off of AMPS with Opiates like ritalin and oxycodone. Wouldnt you say getting more euphoric was a benefit? If so how much do the opiates increase your high, because you said they worked on stimulants....

Opiates should DEF increase feelings of comfort, thats what they DO.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

Bben, it's not only a matter of "comforts" , when you are not focused on people speech, anxiety can raise. The only downers that seems to help in my case is alprazolam (it prevent pain attack when in social situation, and that helps much) if i combine it with buproprion or MPH things are pretty fixed.

Opiods makes me dysphoric (so for SA is not good), especially those with strong activity on mu-receptor. Those more specific on kappa, seems to be better.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

> Opiods makes me dysphoric (so for SA is not good), especially those with strong activity on mu-receptor. Those more specific on kappa, seems to be better.


JohnG what opioids do you mean? I have always thought that mu-agonists are euphoric, while kappa-agonists (e.g. butorphanol and salvinorin-A) may be dysphoric.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

broflovski said:


> JohnG what opioids do you mean? I have always thought that mu-agonists are euphoric, while kappa-agonists (e.g. butorphanol and salvinorin-A) may be dysphoric.


Yes, I'm sorry. Invert the receptors. Mu, are more prone to cause euphoria, kappa dysphoria. But not in my case. They just makes me numb, causing me more anxiety in social situation (different situation is when I'm alone, they are just relaxing, but depressant in the long term.) The only Opioid that helped me much is tramadol, but using it on daily basis it's a suicide.

Same for benzos, and other downers (apart alprazolam and gabapentin-pregabalin) they doesn`t help at all. As I said the only that helped is alprazolam in the XR form, that prevent the avoidance of socials situations ( my mind is prone to "pain attack" because "he" learned that I'm not very good dealing with people) + some good dopaminergic help of course.

I suspect also a pretty strange alfa-2-agonism of alprazolam (+ the gabergic modulation of course), that helps very much but is also dangerous. That's why alprazolam withdrawal are the worst (in the benzos field) because there is a NE rebound, when the molecule lefts his sites.


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## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

Oh, well. As for me I can't say unambiguously what opioids do for my SA. I had experience only with codeine and kratom. On the one hand, they definitely kill depression and may induce sort of bliss, and I do feel some urge to communicate (especially via Internet lol), because of increased empathy and love to everybody. On the other hand they usually give not enough energy, and induce self-sufficient state, provoking some ... alienation. In any case, noticeable effect of opioids is nothing but intellectually impairing kind of high, and one can't function this way on daily basis, whatever it does for SA.
By the way: I never tried benzo (and never wanted to), but have been always interested in tramadol because of it mixed opioid/serononinergic/noradrenergic action and 5HT2c antagonism. In theory it sounds like wonderdrug. But there are so many controversial reports on it, on this forum and everywhere.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

bben said:


> I thought you said you got really high off of AMPS with Opiates like ritalin and oxycodone. Wouldnt you say getting more euphoric was a benefit? If so how much do the opiates increase your high, because you said they worked on stimulants....
> 
> Opiates should DEF increase feelings of comfort, thats what they DO.


Disagree. Our natural opioid transmission in the correct regions does this... but exogenous opiate-flooding pills available today that people take (hence what causes all the dysregulation / withdrawals ;P) are not only a recipe for *mixed effects* from one person to another (personally, the glow is of no help towards my SA / self-actualization goals), but also carry no guarantee for consistency there because that's all that they are.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

broflovski said:


> Oh, well. As for me I can't say unambiguously what opioids do for my SA. I had experience only with codeine and kratom. On the one hand, they definitely kill depression and may induce sort of bliss, and I do feel some urge to communicate (especially via Internet lol), because of increased empathy and love to everybody. On the other hand they usually give not enough energy, and induce self-sufficient state, provoking some ... alienation. In any case, noticeable effect of opioids is nothing but intellectually impairing kind of high, and one can't function this way on daily basis, whatever it does for SA.
> By the way: I never tried benzo (and never wanted to), but have been always interested in tramadol because of it mixed opioid/serononinergic/noradrenergic action and 5HT2c antagonism. In theory it sounds like wonderdrug. But there are so many controversial reports on it, on this forum and everywhere.


Tramadol is the wonderdrug, if you see bad reports it`s because is extremely addictive, but it's really effective and most important, acts fast. (not as a lot of antidepressant).

Btw, is still an opioids with all the bad and good effects of them. (It has also some cognitive effects due to NMDA antagonism, so if you have to retain information, as in my case it's not the best option).

Benzo if cyclized are not evil :b


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> I thought you said you got really high off of AMPS with Opiates like ritalin and oxycodone. Wouldnt you say getting more euphoric was a benefit? If so how much do the opiates increase your high, because you said they worked on stimulants....
> 
> Opiates should DEF increase feelings of comfort, thats what they DO.


They make me extremely high on stims, i get the full opiate high but euphoria only works for social anxiety if that anxiety is caused by toughts of fear or excess worry's.


----------



## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> They make me extremely high on stims, i get the full opiate high but euphoria only works for social anxiety if that anxiety is caused by toughts of fear or excess worry's.


So is your SA driven by a lack of things to say and ability to participate in conversations? That would make sense because amphetamines through dopamine release in the prefrontal cortex would help that i would think.


----------



## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

JohnG said:


> Bben, it's not only a matter of "comforts" , when you are not focused on people speech, anxiety can raise. The only downers that seems to help in my case is alprazolam (it prevent pain attack when in social situation, and that helps much) if i combine it with buproprion or MPH things are pretty fixed.
> 
> Opiods makes me dysphoric (so for SA is not good), especially those with strong activity on mu-receptor. Those more specific on kappa, seems to be better.


thats weird, kappa antagonists are being researched for anti-psychotic properties if i remember correctly. Some anxiety disorders can have psychotic components, i got some benefit from abilify for SA for awhile. I like Kappa agonists a good bit too just not from things like salvia, but from actual opiates like meperidine.


----------



## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

zodiac55 said:


> Disagree. Our natural opioid transmission in the correct regions does this... but exogenous opiate-flooding pills available today that people take (hence what causes all the dysregulation / withdrawals ;P) are not only a recipe for *mixed effects* from one person to another (personally, the glow is of no help towards my SA / self-actualization goals), but also carry no guarantee for consistency there because that's all that they are.


Correct regions is a term I wouldn't use, opiates would hit in the exact same regions that natural endorphins would. Opiates can effect people differently like any drug sure, but its not hard to find the right dose. They are quite predictable once you find it, you just have to increase the dosing and take breaks. Also, opiates are far superior to benzos, which are cognitive dulling, and build tolerance just as fast. Obviously it wont cure your SA, but no medication will do that forever.


----------



## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

bben said:


> thats weird, kappa antagonists are being researched for anti-psychotic properties if i remember correctly. Some anxiety disorders can have psychotic components, i got some benefit from abilify for SA for awhile. I like Kappa agonists a good bit too just not from things like salvia, but from actual opiates like meperidine.


When the problem is ADHD, opioids are useless.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

JohnG said:


> When the problem is ADHD, opioids are useless.


I agree, opiates dont touch dopamine anywhere but the limbic centers, while stimulants hit the prefrontal cortex. ADHD drugs also hit glutamate which opiates actually decrease.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> So is your SA driven by a lack of things to say and ability to participate in conversations? That would make sense because amphetamines through dopamine release in the prefrontal cortex would help that i would think.


I feel extremely uncomfortable in social situations (while im not constantly thinking about bad things that could happen or anything) i also want to say stuff (even if i can come up with things) but i can properly as there is like a "wall" around me, besides that i dont even know what to say. When coming down from amphetamine im still SA free, wich makes sense as its still active in your brain, its just the reward centers that get downregulated, but i dont need the euphoria anyway.

D2 and D3 are implicated in social behaver in the striatum, if they dont function right your ability to be social can be impaired, even if you do feel euphoric.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I feel extremely uncomfortable in social situations (while im not constantly thinking about bad things that could happen or anything) i also want to say stuff (even if i can come up with things) but i can properly as there is like a "wall" around me, besides that i dont even know what to say. When coming down from amphetamine im still SA free, wich makes sense as its still active in your brain, its just the reward centers that get downregulated, but i dont need the euphoria anyway.
> 
> *D2 and D3* are implicated in social behaver in the striatum, if they dont function right your ability to be social can be impaired, even if you do feel euphoric.


Haha those are the two receptors antipsychotics hit, ****ing anti psychotic devil drugs.


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## leon21 (Nov 8, 2009)

bben said:


> Haha those are the two receptors antipsychotics hit, ****ing anti psychotic devil drugs.


it depends on the the dose...for example, low dose of Amisulpride increase dopamine neurotransmission and can treat depression or even anxiety.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

leon21 said:


> it depends on the the dose...for example, low dose of Amisulpride increase dopamine neurotransmission and can treat depression or even anxiety.


Pretty sure amisulpride is a not allowed in the USA. So i wouldnt know, although i like what i see with it hitting the GHB receptor.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Isnt it a GHB antagonist? as it upregulates that receptor.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Isnt it a GHB antagonist? as it upregulates that receptor.


no it has some agonist actions im almost postitive. GHB agonists are well known antipsychotics. I didnt know it upregulated the receptor though. My info could be wrong though as wikipedia is often wrong on pharmies.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Amisulpride is not hard to get in USA as it isn't scheduled. just order it.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

Availability issues aside

whats the difference between Amisulpride & Sulpiride?


----------



## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

PS -


crayzyMed said:


> The only reason its more neurotoxic is because of the 5HT release wich causes extra hyperthermia on top of extra dopamine release causing oxidative stress, this isnt relevent to therapeutic doses at all.


On this note... a bit random, I know, but.. does anyone know of any ways to reliably undo 5-HT-caused hyperthermia without other intrusive effects? Dopaminergics, maybe? What 5-HT receptors/aspects cause this, anyway?


----------



## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

zodiac55 said:


> PS -
> 
> On this note... a bit random, I know, but.. does anyone know of any ways to reliably undo 5-HT-caused hyperthermia without other intrusive effects? Dopaminergics, maybe? What 5-HT receptors/aspects cause this, anyway?


Mirtazapine should do quite a good job at blocking serotonin hyperthermia.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> PS -
> 
> On this note... a bit random, I know, but.. does anyone know of any ways to reliably undo 5-HT-caused hyperthermia without other intrusive effects? Dopaminergics, maybe? What 5-HT receptors/aspects cause this, anyway?


Cardevilol (allways spell this one badly haha) should reverse that effect quite a bit while also protecting against some of the cardiotoxiticy. Its probably mostly 5HT2A that causes wich is also directly implicated in serotonine syndrome (overheating) dopamine can cause hyperthermia too, some adrenergic receptors are most likely implicated too.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

burner00 said:


> Availability issues aside
> 
> whats the difference between Amisulpride & Sulpiride?


I'm not sure wheter sulpiride binds to the GHB and 5HT7 receptor while amisulpiride definatly does.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

I have some Lisuride at my disposal.

Do have any idea how to go about this dosing wise and all other stuff.

Seen you hyping up Lisuride thought asking you about this compound would be a wise choice.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

euphoria said:


> Mirtazapine should do quite a good job at blocking serotonin hyperthermia.


mirtazapines antihistamine effects sucks


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

zodiac55 said:


> PS -
> 
> On this note... a bit random, I know, but.. does anyone know of any ways to reliably undo 5-HT-caused hyperthermia without other intrusive effects? Dopaminergics, maybe? What 5-HT receptors/aspects cause this, anyway?


As crayzymed mentioned 5HT induced hypothermia is thought to be regulated by the 5HT2A receptor, cyproheptadine is used in hospitals to treat SS so it would probably work.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks for the thoughts... just a tangent anyway, really.

lol but "car*devil*ol" is awesome.. might just spell it that way from now on, actually.

xD


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Just took my first pill of wellbutrin, hopefully this stuff makes me stop going on massive drug binges so i allways waste my stimulant supply in 3 days lol. Maybe it also helps my ADHD.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

burner00 said:


> I have some Lisuride at my disposal.
> 
> Do have any idea how to go about this dosing wise and all other stuff.
> 
> Seen you hyping up Lisuride thought asking you about this compound would be a wise choice.


I think it has alot of potential however i'm concerned with it causing severe apathy due to shifting balance to tonic serotogenic and dopaminergic firing, it basicly inhibits monoamine firing caused by other stimuli wich would lead to apathy and anhedonia.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> Thanks for the thoughts... just a tangent anyway, really.
> 
> lol but "car*devil*ol" is awesome.. might just spell it that way from now on, actually.
> 
> xD


lol


----------



## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I think it has alot of potential however i'm concerned with it causing severe apathy due to shifting balance to tonic serotogenic and dopaminergic firing, it basicly inhibits monoamine firing caused by other stimuli wich would lead to apathy and anhedonia.


I agree about the shift to tonic firing versus burst firing. All antipsychotics prevent bust firing and potentiate tonic firing.

I am on abiify and i can still respond to natural rewards but no drug rewards. it also reigns in highs and lows.

I think wellbutrin is a good choice for you, i would go up the highest dose since you do amps so much. haha you should through some opiates in there too and tell me if it works


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Dont want opiates, i want a downer i can take daily without physical dependence like GBL. GBL is far superior to opiates anyway:banana


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Dont want opiates, i want a downer i can take daily without physical dependence like GBL. GBL is far superior to opiates anyway:banana


Hit me up when ya find one.. = P


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> Hit me up when ya find one.. = P


Well they dont technically exist, but with GBL you can easily avoid it by not taking it for sleep and also not taking it right after waking it due to its half life, GABAB receptors are very easy going, tough on the other hand phenibit is a complete disaster.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Its pretty mentally addictive tough, hate running out but as usual ordered the stuff way too late lol.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

you sure do like your gbl huh.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> you sure do like your gbl huh.


I can say the same about your opiates:b ive tried them both opies with stim and g with stim, g is the win for me

Better order some now.


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## burner00 (Oct 11, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I think it has alot of potential however i'm concerned with it causing severe apathy due to shifting balance to tonic serotogenic and dopaminergic firing, it basicly inhibits monoamine firing caused by other stimuli wich would lead to apathy and anhedonia.


So i guess now i can throw them in the garbage then. Im already suffering from anhedonia and i dont want that to get that amplified.

This concudes dopamine agonists are hopeless dopaminergics in regards to increasing dopamine.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Wellbutrin is allready working a bit, keep forgetting to take my methoxetamine lol, wich is most likely because it gives a bit of a mood boost, not very recreational but it is reinforcing so its likely i never forget a dose for those reasons.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm still interested in partying and clubs and stuff, wich is good as too much anti addiction would change my personality8) I was a bit concerned about that lol, as some ppl lose interest in even drinking a bit of alcohol and going out for some fun, that would seem like a personality change for me.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Sometimes, I wonder if it is a secret goal to try every medication and chemical substance known to mankind.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> Sometimes, I wonder if it is a secret goal to try every medication and chemical substance known to mankind.


No but its a secret goal to get 100% remission without any side effects, maybe il only get there 70%, but the only way to see how close i can get is with experimenting, no other way. Not trying is fail imo.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I admit i do want to try every RC that comes available, but thats for recreational, not therapeutic reasons.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

My banana doesnt taste very good on wellbutrin, seems to make food taste less good.


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## TheoBobTing (Jul 8, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> My banana doesnt taste very good on wellbutrin, seems to make food taste less good.


I had that side effect on venlafaxine. Things like coffee had a weird taste to me (it had a strange dull tang). That went away after around a couple of weeks.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> My banana doesnt taste very good on wellbutrin, seems to make food taste less good.


Yeah thats true for almost all dopaminergic enhancing stimulants, they make good taste like **** and kill appetite.

Crazymed, what do you think of tobacco? I would think you would like it since you seem to enjoy stimulants so much.

Im currently doing:

10mg focalin/ 20 mg hydrocodone

10mg focalin /20 mg hydrocodone

curcumin before bed with fish oil.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I cant tolerate tobacco, it makes me puke and feel completely sick, i do like it on stimulants.

Sounds good.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm trialling 4FA at the moment.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

bben said:


> Yeah thats true for almost all dopaminergic enhancing stimulants, they make good taste like **** and kill appetite.
> 
> Im currently doing:
> 
> ...


Focalin helps bring out the effects for you, a necessary adjunct? Or do you just take it for other reasons. Not really an opiates guy here either hehe, just kinda curious about your experience.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Yes i need a glutamate raising stimulant for opiates to have any effect on me at all. The focalin is key, amphetamine works too but it has harsher side effects so I use focalin which is like ritalin but better. I have pretty much total anhedonia without a stimulant or tobacco. I would compare it to the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, but i have never had positive symptoms so i wonder.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

zodiac55 said:


> Focalin helps bring out the effects for you, a necessary adjunct? Or do you just take it for other reasons. Not really an opiates guy here either hehe, just kinda curious about your experience.


I responded above this. Also if you arnt an opiates guy you simply arnt dosing high enough or are using less euphoric opiates or are on a medication that blocks opiate euphoria. Simply put, at the right dose opiates should be the most euphoric drug for pretty much everyone.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Day 1 on memantine... 5mg pretty whacky stuff, but so far it feels good. 

Thanks for recommending this stuff.

Tried that Focalin crap, it was a complete b1t ch to me.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I received 4FMP, i didnt start compulsive redosing wich allways leads to extreme paranoia and a lot of wasted money, also decided to call it a day now as i know the feeling is pretty much gone, no point in redosing. No way i ever did that before wellbutrin.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> Day 1 on memantine... 5mg pretty whacky stuff, but so far it feels good.
> 
> Thanks for recommending this stuff.
> 
> Tried that Focalin crap, it was a complete b1t ch to me.


Cool, keep us updated mate.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Cool, keep us updated mate.


what do you think of memantine compared to curcumin i find them very similar.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> what do you think of memantine compared to curcumin i find them very similar.


Yes, both very solid adjuncts that work very well, one of them is a must is most regime's imo.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

On a side note how did that Selank work out for you? Is it anything worth getting excited over? 

I've tried Noopept for extended periods, which was extremely mild, and probably not worth getting riled up over. But since then I kind of gave up on Eastern substances as being somewhat unnoteworthy.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

It inhibited euphoria of all the stuff i took, so didnt it for long lol.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

That's interesting criteria...

How's the bupropion treating you so far?

I don't think I'd expect too much from it immediately. its still pretty soon if you say you just started the other day


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> That's interesting criteria...
> 
> How's the bupropion treating you so far?
> 
> I don't think I'd expect too much from it immediately. its still pretty soon if you say you just started the other day


Ive been using 4FA properly today, not overdosing, didnt start compulsive redosing like i allways did with stims, so it is helping alot in that department, besides that a more stable mood.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

bben said:


> what do you think of memantine compared to curcumin i find them very similar.


 Please use a curcumin product without bioperine, it increases absorption of many different drugs which can be dangerous.


----------



## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm bumping my memantine dosage to 10mg tomorrow, I can barely feel the effect (only an extremely mild dizziness) of 5mg. I guess my brain isn't that sensitive to it so might as well progress quicker. So far it feels good, almost natural. Thinking isn't any worse than usual. 

"beware of bioperine or you'll grow antlers'' 

lol'

EDIT:

My initial impression of memantine if it all could be summed in two words:

"calm and focused"

Strange med. Liking it already =D


----------



## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

bben said:


> I responded above this. Also if you arnt an opiates guy you simply arnt dosing high enough or are using less euphoric opiates or are on a medication that blocks opiate euphoria. Simply put, at the right dose opiates should be the most euphoric drug for pretty much everyone.


Good summary, thanks... just somethin to keep in mind.
By the way, have you ever tried ultra-low-dose naltrexone (0.1-2mg) at night time? Resensitizes the key receptors (gamma? I forget) and actually REVERSES/abolishes tolerance.. supposedly. Sounds a bit too good to be true, but even though it's new research (kinda like memantine for tolerance) they say it has tremendously good results (opposite effect of typical normal naltrexone, which would obviously just create hell). ;P


----------



## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Medline said:


> Please use a curcumin product without bioperine, it increases absorption of many different drugs which can be dangerous.


Wow -- good point, medline. Here I was just gonna recommend it to a friend, completely forgetting the enzyme concept...


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Info for a curcumin brand: 
http://www.alzforum.org/drg/drc/detail.asp?id=137
http://longvida.com/index.php
http://www.nutrivene.com/view_item.php?ProductID=331&


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ultra low dose naltrexone never really panned out in humans from the reports ive seen, the tolerance reduction is also apperantly only for the analgesic effects. Proglumde was another promosing looking disappointment.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Win for tolerance:

α3β4 antagonism
NMDA antagonism
GABAB agonism (GABAB downregulates too, so you need others for this one)


----------



## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/ppmc/articles/PMC2600595/?tool=pubmed
?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/ppmc/articles/PMC2600595/?tool=pubmed
> ?


Yes its a extremely interesting target for addiction, withdrawals, tolerance and craving, very interesting.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Forgot curcumin, would work for tolerance due to CREB inhibition.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I miss my beloved memantine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

just got another pack in the mail - Exiba brand.


----------



## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Medline said:


> Please use a curcumin product without bioperine, it increases absorption of many different drugs which can be dangerous.


the only curcumin worth taking is bcm 95 nanoparticle forumla with trials behind it, the bioperine formula is crappy.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crazy where are you dawg.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

In my bed at the time lol.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Anyway, I don't think Jarrow curcumin is nano.

I bumped my memantine dose up to 10mg, only now am I feeling a little wonky.

Sort of like I have tunnel vision. But it isn't anything too severe or uncomfortable.


----------



## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

The memantine side effects are pretty hardcore right now, dizziness, blegh. How much of this stuff is tolerable ?


----------



## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Vilazodone said:


> The memantine side effects are pretty hardcore right now, dizziness, blegh. How much of this stuff is tolerable ?


At 10mg? Shouldn't be too bad -- be sure you're not taking it very often if you're trying it out (long half-life and the effects WILL stack). If you have any racetams around, they will negate a lot of the initial fog/dizziness effects... but then, if you're experiencing such discomfort at 10mg, it might just not be the right thing for ya.

5mg in the morning and 5mg in the evening should be a good starting point for a week or two IMO... if you're overly sensitive to the effects.


----------



## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Vilazodone said:


> The memantine side effects are pretty hardcore right now, dizziness, blegh. How much of this stuff is tolerable ?


shouldve used curcumin :b


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> The memantine side effects are pretty hardcore right now, dizziness, blegh. How much of this stuff is tolerable ?


Went up to 80mg once, jumped up from 40 and used 20 gram piracetam to buffer the side effects out, had double vision and dizzyness but after the adaptation 80 was fine, didnt notice any cognitive impairement, i'm probably the only one that tolerates such high doses lol.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'l start at 80 next time ive got it, hope this wont be too crazy lol.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

So far I've been doing this:

DAY1: 5mg 8am. No side effects
DAY2: 5mg 8am. No side effects
DAY3: 10mg 8am. Not too many side effects until about 3pm; then head spinning, can't focus or think.
DAY4: 10mg 8am. Hopefully its a little better today.

Tomorrow (or tonight), I plan on adding another 10mg with a PM dose, for a total of 20mg daily.

I don't see the purpose of dragging out the adjustment period over the course of the month, I'd rather be at a target dose by week 2 if possible. I don't have that kind of patience to junk an entire month.

Starting at 80mg is just plain Crayzy =D.... My head would be spinning like a top and I'd probably be tripping too. Not fun.

What's the target dose I should be aiming for? 

20mg?
30mg?
40mg?

I'm thinking maybe I should stay a few weeks at each one and see which is best?


----------



## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I'l start at 80 next time ive got it, hope this wont be too crazy lol.


Don't do that... -__- space trip!

Ok, I suppose it's whatever, but if you plan on taking doses of piracetam with it, at least see if you notice the piracetam also cancelling out the nice tolerance reversal from memantine (piracetam being an NMDA *agonist* -ish)... and ehh cmon, maybe at more practical doses, so the results can at least apply to other people. ;P

No one has the money for 80mg memantine 20g piracetam daily haha.


----------



## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Vilazodone said:


> So far I've been doing this:
> 
> DAY1: 5mg 8am. No side effects
> DAY2: 5mg 8am. No side effects
> ...


Yeh, not a bad idea. It's best to take morning and night to maintain steady concentration so you can develop tolerance to the disconnecting effects sooner, though IMO taking it at night gives me some crappy sleep (YMMV so don't rule that out!). But yeah, 20mg is a good start... shouldn't ever really need more than 40mg daily, divided in two 20mg doses, to see the full effect/benefits and assess if it's for you, etc.

That being the most important part... since memantine's kind of a "do the benefits outweigh the negatives?" kind of substance anyway. Unless you're tripping on it, which is just plain juvenile (get some LSD ), though admittedly not as stupid as the tards that trip on diphenhydramine and convulse on sidewalks and ****.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> Don't do that... -__- space trip!
> 
> Ok, I suppose it's whatever, but if you plan on taking doses of piracetam with it, at least see if you notice the piracetam also cancelling out the nice tolerance reversal from memantine (piracetam being an NMDA *agonist* -ish)... and ehh cmon, maybe at more practical doses, so the results can at least apply to other people. ;P
> 
> No one has the money for 80mg memantine 20g piracetam daily haha.


I'm only gonna take the high dose piracetam during the adaptation period, it completely abolishes the dissociative effects:banana.


----------



## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

So far today hasn't yet gotten so bad in terms of side effects. Here's to hoping it stays this way....


Zodiac, how does memantine adversely effect YOUR sleep? 

So far I've been feeling sleepier at bedtime than usual, I'm thinking it may be due to memantine making me feel ****ed up I don't even want to stay awake..

I think crayzy is kidding about taking 80mg


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Apperantly also can take up to 6 weeks before wellbutrin starts getting effective for ADHD, up till now i noticed i wasnt constantly moving around in the train, it also seems to make my mood more stable (not a sudden change to depression caused by certain events, tough i usually feel back better quickly afterwards).

Also taking NAC however dont really like this supplement so will likely stop taking it once i got resveratrol and curcumin back, also to avoid any interactions.

I'm gonna restart memantine as soon as possible, currently on a break of amt and methoxetamine.


----------



## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"can take up to 6 weeks before wellbutrin"

I made the mistake of not being patient with bupropion.. I think you're taking the correct approach with this med.

Today has been good compared to yesterday, I'm hardly experiencing any side effects and am on 10mg the cheap indian memantine.

I will take Exiba at the same dose eventually to compare to see if there is any difference between brands to let you guys know, the least I can do in return. Crayzy you've been really helpful. 

Will likely be jumping up to 20mg dose ASAP to get the discomforts out of the way.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ive also taken ebixa prescribed by a docter here, never noticed any difference except that it was damn cheap! I switched the brand a few times as often i ordered to late and got it prescribed from a doc here. (maybe should have mentioned that before as you talked about comparing the brands before i think if im right, didnt think about it.)

Cool, keep us updated mate.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

What are the advantages of going over 20mg?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> What are the advantages of going over 20mg?


Its not effective for depression under 30mg, altough the trial testing higher doses was pretty small, another study found doses of 10-20mg not better then placebo.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

You seem pretty keen on memantine...

What dose do you think is optimal?


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Well I'm at 20mg and its only week 1. Not experiencing too many side effects, if any.. Just feel a little sedate. Not bad.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> You seem pretty keen on memantine...
> 
> What dose do you think is optimal?


Id say 30mg.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I can hardly tell I'm on something.. If it weren't for the mildest sluggishness in thought and a mild relaxed feeling like I just woke up I'd barely even be able to tell I was on something if it wasn't for the popping of foils of memantine... I would think I was just having a normal sleepyish day.

I'm thinking either 30 or 40mg will be target...

30mg will likely be the next 1 day stop on the way to 40. 

40 @ 4 tablets per day seems fine. Then give it a month or so at that.. If I like it then I'll probably stay at that. I wonder if memantine requires other meds like Amphs to really shine. Right now it is remarkable for lack of bad side effects. If anything the current side effects are slightly positive. Sleep seems to come easier. It almost doesn't feel like ANY of the memantine reports I've read... 

***This is starting to make me wonder what the full therapeutic effect of memantine is supposed to feel like??? I'm seriously stumped!

Someone share what memantine feels like for them subjectively... I'm wondering if those Indians slipped me some Xanax or something.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

Memantine had a sedating effect on me as well, however during my initial trial its like the brain fog never fully lifted (despite being at the same dose for weeks at a time and titrating very slowly.) I always felt cognitively impaired, exhausted and physically weak while never seeing any tolerance reduction (however I only went up to 25mg/day.) I stopped it completely approximately 2 months ago, but I am considering giving it another try after realizing that I probably never got to a high enough dose to see the benefits...I'm thinking I might order some piracetam this time around as well to combat the brain fog. I have learned a lot from this thread, very informative!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Memantine works how crayzymed likes it, doesnt do anything except helping my ocd alot, and blocking tolerance! No side effects, it does add clarity and kinda has a postive feel, so thats certainly a plus.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

KW5789 said:


> Memantine had a sedating effect on me as well, however during my initial trial its like the brain fog never fully lifted (despite being at the same dose for weeks at a time and titrating very slowly.) I always felt cognitively impaired, exhausted and physically weak while never seeing any tolerance reduction (however I only went up to 25mg/day.) I stopped it completely approximately 2 months ago, but I am considering giving it another try after realizing that I probably never got to a high enough dose to see the benefits...I'm thinking I might order some piracetam this time around as well to combat the brain fog. I have learned a lot from this thread, very informative!


Yes adding piracetam is a good idea as it works agains the fog and it apperantly synergizes with mem, the jury is still out wheter it affects the tolerance preventing ability of memantine tough, but someone has to try it! Yes it appears that from 30mg on it starts working really well for tolerance.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm not much a believer in the piracetam craze, having tried the stuff myself... it made me feel a lot more out of it than memantine has even come close to. Piracetam felt yucky.. Memantine feels somewhat natural.. I'm still somewhat baffled but thanks for clearing that up for me. 40mg is my target dose.. I won't be surprised if I'm already there by the end of the week, it depends on whether I'm still side effect free while on 20mg.. I'm glad I've been able to progress this fast on memantine. I'll definitely know whether its for me or not within a month or so.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> I'm not much a believer in the piracetam craze, having tried the stuff myself...


Same here, its pretty much useless on its own, but it has effiacy in impaired conditions (for example memantine brainfog) it may also come in handy when i'm an old grandpa.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm gonna add methylene blue as a supplement.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Crayzy.. I seriously hope you're joking man.. C'mon you know better than that. Please don't do what those Imminst'ers do... =(

Imminst (or whatever the hell they call themselves now) has a lot of misinformation, with an occasional intelligent but twisted poster, granted. I don't think methylene blue is worth turning yourself into a smurf over.

You'd be better off taking extra vitamin C or even better something that naturally contains vitamin C, like Amla... 
http://www.banyanbotanicals.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1031&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=29
I'm telling you that will beat the crap out of methylene blue and even plain old vitamin C. There are so many better options out there besides Amla.. Many options without side effects.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Haha trust me i dont take everything from imminst serieusly, i'm actually pretty critical of the average "life extension" or should we say aging acceleration stacks.

I did get interested in methylene blue, some ppl reported a increase in energy and it should act as mitochondrial antioxidant in low doses, if i dont feel anything subjectively i will stop taking it.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"if i dont feel anything subjectively i will stop taking it"

AMEN!

Alright, sounds like you know what's up then.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

It seems as though *IF* I'm gonna feel side effects from the memantine, it's during the late afternoon/early evening when I'm gonna feel it. Getting a little bit of dizziness now.. it isn't bad considering I had doubled the memantine dose overnight from 10mg to 20mg.. I think I'll give 20mg one more day or at least my head feels normal for an entire day on it. Then I'll make a jump to either 30mg or 40mg.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah that sounds like a good idea.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Vilazodone said:


> Zodiac, how does memantine adversely effect YOUR sleep?
> 
> So far I've been feeling sleepier at bedtime than usual, I'm thinking it may be due to memantine making me feel ****ed up I don't even want to stay awake..
> 
> I think crayzy is kidding about taking 80mg


Yeah, it's not so much that it made me overly awake or something, I just swear I'd wake up feeling really groggy, like the sleep itself was of poor quality or something. Could've just been the one or two times as I was getting used to it, though, so honestly if you don't notice anything, don't worry about it.  I've not really taken it for more than two weeks at a time -ish thus far for various reasons, but plan to restart it in the near future. 



> Someone share what memantine feels like for them subjectively... I'm wondering if those Indians slipped me some Xanax or something.


Haha.. nah, it does have some amazing benefits that randomly start to shine, like an INCREASED ability to remember certain things better, as well as that awesome tolerance-help (for some things, anyway), but as you guess, they're somewhat "in the background" on their own... which is a good thing.

I second that piracetam is pretty meh on its own (just personal opinion), but it does combine very well with memantine in that sense... I'm still very curious to see if crayzy notes any difference in tolerance-reversal with piracetam in the mix. That would mean a lot of things!

From my experience, I did feel a reduction there, but that has a slight chance of just having been subjective, because the piracetam makes me emotionally-flat so I would take effects for granted more...

Vilazodone, what are you trying to prevent tolerance to w/ the memantine, again (if anything)?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I really hope wellbutrin is gonna help my anhedonia and that its gonna synergize with AMT, AMT doesnt really work for me without memantine, i seem to have gotten tolerant to it, altough amt would abolish my anhedonia.

I still dont notice anything, ive been on 450mg now for more then a week, no help for my ADHD at all, hopefully its gonna kick in soon, really no patience for slow meds haha. I wonder why it needs so much time as its a releasing agent.

Ive been out of GBL for 2 weeks now or something, also been out of stims for around the same time, except 4FA wich ive tried last monday and now this saterday night, i dont consider it very good therapeutically, its too recreational so wont take it during the weekdays.

Hope to get memantine back asap, it really potentiated stuff well and blocked GBL tolerance, it also works against G's neurotoxiticy and tolerance to amphetamine and other drugs, while also reducing the comedowns significantly.

Il give amp another try now wellbutrin dramatically reduced self administration of my drugs haha, so hopefully i wont run out so fast again so i have to wait several weeks so i can order more, i found my perfect treatment but i was without it most of the time lol.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I wasn't aware of bupropion's potential for ADHD...

It does work for depression though.. for some people. 

It's also a drug that can also get pretty trippy and euphoric at times. 

Somewhat reminiscent of booze.

It felt somewhat like stupefying euphoria when I was on it. but I was also under the withdrawal effects of sertraline at the time too.

*Crayzy, isn't memantine the drug of choice for extending your Amp supply? I'm just not getting it or something.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Euphoria of wellbutrin? Never experienced any of that, yes its as effect as ritalin for ADHD.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ibogaine in low daily doses looks very interesting.


> Also, here's my experience with low doses of ibogaine.
> 
> After several months, I got back on the opiates. Decreasing tolerance was too easy w/ low doses of ibogaine. I'm not condoning this, but I still was on an ssri when I would take a low dose and noticed no adverse effect.
> 
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> *Crayzy, isn't memantine the drug of choice for extending your Amp supply? I'm just not getting it or something.


It blocks tolerance, but i allways have to overdo it, take a ton more then normal so i ran out after a week and then dont have any stimulant for several weeks.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Sounds like stimulants may not be the right substance then... 

If you had an unlimited supply of Amp would you constantly have to increase your dosage?

-------------

Memantine + alcohol = dizzysauce. Strange interaction between those 2.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"Euphoria of wellbutrin? "

Yes, I remember it used to come in waves, I'd be standing there doing something mundane and all of a sudden that same mundane act became almost orgasmic in intensity.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> Sounds like stimulants may not be the right substance then...
> 
> If you had an unlimited supply of Amp would you constantly have to increase your dosage?
> 
> ...


Definatly not, id take breaks in time i wont ever take high doses of amp daily for a long period even if tolerance isnt an issue, but the biggest reason for that is to avoid addiction, ive never been physically addicted to any substance and would like to keep it that way.

Memantine works excellent for tolerance, even after high doses the next day a normal low dose works fine.

Stimulants are the only meds that work for me, benzo's, alcohol, opiates, GHB,... all dont work for my social anxiety.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> Memantine + alcohol = dizzysauce. Strange interaction between those 2.


Maybe thats because your still adating to mem, after the adaptation alcohol is alot more euphoric.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Did anyone notice like a weird feeling with wellbutrin? Like you can feel it that your on a drug? It feels like plastic, really weird, but it may be the NAC too.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

It is also pretty euphoric in addition to dizzy... I just increased my dose to 30mg today. Alcohol feels more like an antidepressant than an inebrient.. if it wasn't for the mild dizziness. @30mg it does start to feel somewhat like an antidepressant.

I don't know what triggered this drinking binge.. I just was bored out of my mind the other night and decided to pick up a 6pack.

I can say it takes less alcohol to get a positive effect. 

Memantine certainly is one of the more interesting drugs I've tried.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"weird feeling with wellbutrin?"

Yes, but I felt less weird and less 'medicated' on bupropion compared to an SSRI.

If there were 'weirdness' scale ranging from 1 to 10, I'd give wellbutrin a 5, for moderately weird, SSRI's would get a 6-7, for noticeably weird and "I'm also acting a bit strange too". lol

I wouldn't be surprised if the effects of bupropion are on the verge of starting up if you are beginning to feel strange sensations and such... 450mg is a hefty enough dose too.. I wish I could remember what dose I was on, but I remember the effects starting around week 2 or so if I recall correctly, it's been almost 10 years now!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Another log with regards to memantine can be found here:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=44015

Mostly about using memantine for amphetamine tolerance.

And very interesting info regarding memantine's pharmacology and how it actually prevents tolerance to amphetamine:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=44519

10 years? thats a while ago! I hope il get some effects after 2 weeks too.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> It is also pretty euphoric in addition to dizzy... I just increased my dose to 30mg today. Alcohol feels more like an antidepressant than an inebrient.. if it wasn't for the mild dizziness. @30mg it does start to feel somewhat like an antidepressant.
> 
> I don't know what triggered this drinking binge.. I just was bored out of my mind the other night and decided to pick up a 6pack.
> 
> ...


It makes alcohol alot more recreational for me, normally i completely dislike alcohol, however on memantine one or 2 beers give me a nice buzz lol.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> It makes alcohol alot more recreational for me, normally i completely dislike alcohol, however on memantine one or 2 beers give me a nice buzz lol.


why would an anti glutamate agent effect alcohols euphoria, that makes no sense if anything increasing glutamate should make it more euphoric.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> why would an anti glutamate agent effect alcohols euphoria, that makes no sense if anything increasing glutamate should make it more euphoric.


NMDA antagonists atenuate or reverse ethanol tolerance, it makes total sense, NMDA antagonists also dont affect glutamate levels and limited nmda antagonism wont have any inhibitory effect on euphoria. (unless its excessive nmda antagonism).


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

From the subjective side of things I have to side with Crayzy, 1-2 beers which normally doesn't do too much to me gives a strong buzz (however, it feels less inebriating and more natural) while on memantine...


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Today is my first day at 40mg. This is likely where I'll stay. 

I feel like I'm in a memantine induced altered reality. I find daydreaming comes very easily. The effects are mildly stupefying (focus is not as sharp or painful as it usually is while unmedicated), but the stupefication* (*yea that's probably not even a word) is accompanied with a mild, almost unnoticeable antidepressant-like effect. Mind you I don't feel dumbed down to idiot level, I just feel a little slow like I'm doped up on something mild-natured. It is a somewhat disconnected feeling. 

I'm hoping all this levels out after I've been on this dose for about 2 more weeks or so. We'll see.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Should clear up after a few days allready, the brainfog vanishes fast with memantine.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Only a few days?!? Gosh I hope so. . .

Has the bupropion kicked in yet? Hopefully it winds up working for you.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Not really, maybe some more motivation but could be because of stopping nac, i'l see in a few days, also took AMT today but i got tolerant and it doesnt really work without memantine anymore except some mild effects, hopefully it would synergize with wellbutrin as AMT is pretty much the most important thing in my regime.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

It sounds as if memantine should be a high priority then?

I'm kind of baffled by your response to bupropion... I was high as a kite on that stuff, and I wasn't taking nearly as much as you are. I'd give it another week or so, or at least wait until you can get your hands on some memantine again since you respond so well to it.

By NAC, are you talking about *N*-*acetylcysteine ?*


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah memantine is something essential, its the foundation of everything for me. I took alot of amp a while ago because i couldnt function without it due to my infection inducing CFS, wich could have induced cross tolerance to wellbutrin as i wasnt taking memantine at the time.

Yes i ment that, was out of curcumin and resveratrol so took that for a while, never planned to keep on taking it.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"infection inducing CFS"

Are you saying you have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? Otherwise fatigue is pretty much a universal experience when one undergoes infection. In fact the body demands it in order to survive considering the last thing your body wants while sick is running around expending energy needed to fight the infection.

The immune system pretty much exerts its control over the CNS.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

No i dont really have it, i ment i felt simular when i had that infection, i couldnt even go on the internet anymore only sleep all day, so then i counteracted that with amp wich is actually imunosupressive so i made things only a ****load worse, i reversed everything in time with flucanozole as things were getting scary lol.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Microbes are no joke, especially while they are eating your body alive. The body responds to the threat appropriately by shutting down. These critters used to put us pathetic humans into our early graves before the advent modern drugs.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Quite the discussion...

There's this movie coming out, I forget the name, it's about this guy that's low-achieving in life and gets offered a pill that basically self-actualizes him like 100%  ...good one, I wanna see it. But it also makes you think a bit... in such a scenario in real life, the thing that many people in today's society miss is that... you gotta be mentally prepared enough for when you find that golden combo for remission/improvement, etc. so that when you get to where you wanna be, you've learned not to get bored of the normal state. Otherwise, no matter how resilient, anyone can and will eventually become a hedonic-reward slave without even noticing it (i.e. not ever being 'dependent' on anything, but always chasing highs etc.) heh.

A bit redundant and all, I'm sorry... but still something worth reiterating... a mandatory public-service-announcement approved by the zodiac55 foundation, if you will  lol...


PS - Yeah, I advise stayin at 40mg, Vilazodone... I remember reading study results (and experiencing) of too much NMDA antagonism long-term definitely not being beneficial (overly-inhibited firing), even if you cope with the brain fog better over time. Kinda like the "inverted U" of ideal dopamine levels. And as for the 6-packs and the wellbutrins, well, see above.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Haha i know your referring to me, but i actually feel strongly about appreciating the sober state, even tough i do suffer from anhedonia, this is the big reason i never got physically addicted to GBL, i have no problem waiting till the evening or afternoon to take it, while others HAVE to take it 24/7 they cant control it, wich is when the **** happends.

Personally i feel very strongly about being able to go back to your sober state without any withdrawals, wich is why i make sure to never get tolerant to anything, or take anything so long it would induce withdrawals, its also important to check how much worse you feel when sober, or wheter your getting effects that take longer to go away.

Apart from that i am a hedonic reward slave hehe.

Taking too much amphetamine is without doubt a bad idea, wich is why i started wellbutrin.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> PS - Yeah, I advise stayin at 40mg, Vilazodone... I remember reading study results (and experiencing) of too much NMDA antagonism long-term definitely not being beneficial (overly-inhibited firing), even if you cope with the brain fog better over time. Kinda like the "inverted U" of ideal dopamine levels. And as for the 6-packs and the wellbutrins, well, see above.


I didnt find 60mg of memantine to have any negative effects, wich i took for a couple weeks.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

xD

Nah, wasn't particularly to you, as you are quite the experienced psychonaut (though that's still nothing to slack about no matter how good ).

Just wanted to type a bit, haha... very calmly energized from this stuff I decided to give a go... "VPX Meltdown." Really helped increase the activation in the correct areas for me, bringing inspiration and the energy that I'm looking for (stims also are a huge help in my case) I sorta picked apart the quite smoothly-balanced ingredients a while back, and while I didn't understand their synergy in full, I thought it was worth a shot.

And so far, the effects seem worthwhile... basically like a long-lasting PEA feeling that doesn't just poop out. Unfortunately, on all catecholamine-supporting stuff, including PEA and this, I tend to experience an odd "left-hemisphere drop-out" _(<**this is actually like the "error of my my brain"that I've been trying to fix above all, and is happening *all the time* but it's just amplified cuz of the stim/energy - which helps me to work with it more)_, where the increased left-hemisphere positive-inspiration from the stim will quickly disappear about half-way through the duration of the substances' effect (so, like 30 minutes out of the 1-hour effect of PEA back in the day lol) and will be replaced with a dull adrenergic-like feeling that is counterproductive to most everything. :\

Puzzle for the ages, heh. My own mindset has a lot to do with it, and just knowing how to maintain it helps a bit.. but I hate that it's this predisposition I have to fight against.. wish something chem-wise could help undo it better. Thinking it's somewhat related to overly active metabolism of DA in left-PFC, but obviously near-impossible to tell for sure, heh. 

I'll write back later on how the effect kept up after a few hours (caffeine's in it... but I remember once before I took it and had no crash) if anyone cares. Otherwise... just kinda staying tuned on you guys' progress, as always. 

cheers


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

re: zodiac55 says,

"I remember reading study results (and experiencing) of too much NMDA antagonism long-term definitely not being beneficial (overly-inhibited firing)"

------------------------------------------------------------------ 

zodiac55, 

Which study are you referring to? Would appreciate an actual link to verify.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

zodiac, where is the evidence to back up your statement?


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Vilazodone said:


> re: zodiac55 says,
> 
> "I remember reading study results (and experiencing) of too much NMDA antagonism long-term definitely not being beneficial (overly-inhibited firing)"
> 
> ...


He is right....


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Sorry, I should clarify that it wasn't a human study result -- obviously no one would ever get away with giving high doses of NMDA antagonists in a clinical setting lol... check erowid for that, Olney's Lesions and all.

But, why does it matter? Memantine is only useful in a therapeutic setting, it's not DXM (which can be therapeutic, too, of course).

You simply won't be able to "adjust" past a certain dose.. which is way above your target and all, I was just saying that as a side note.

On another side note, the developer of memantine, Dr. Stuart Lipton and Michael R. Hayden did a study on mice with Huntington's Disease:

"They then tested a low dose and a high dose of memantine in the HD mouse. Low doses reduced the extrasynaptic activity but not the normal synaptic activity and treated the disease. High doses actually increased pathology because they blocked the protective, normal synaptic activity as well as the extrasynaptic activity."

Disregarding that, though, even my anecdotal experiences with higher (50mg+) doses of memantine consistently inhibited too much normal, necessary stuff to be productive... one doesn't have to have HD or be a rat to figure that out. 

Very low-dose NMDA antagonism is all that's needed for tolerance reversal anyway (15mg DXM regularly, etc., 20-60mg memantine max, cuz remember about its very long half-life!), and I doubt much higher would ever be needed to get any sort of appreciable difference in "antidepressant" effect... the presence of which even varies greatly from person to person.

Tread cautiously, is all I'm saying.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

curcumin is best for low grade nmda antagonism IMO and it inhibits creb tooo.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I dont think curcumin's nmda antagonism is significant enough for tolerance, it seemed to work excellent for amphetamine, but not so for GBL, wich i think CREB antagonism doesnt work good for, unlike for other drugs.


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## kassem23 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Memantine is awesome*

So, my friend crazymed wanted me to chime in 

I must say, after my 1 month experience with Memantine, that it is absolutely wonderful.

It fixes my dextroamphetamine tolerance completely, and the positive mood and increased energy remains. It also eliminates any sort of crash that I usually experience on dextroamphetamine.

Memantine alone improves my cognition, removes many negative thought loops, dramatically improves my response to alcohol (it is so ****ing awesome now), reduces my various obsessions, improves general mood...

So yeah, Memantine is pretty much a must-need drug for me.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Very nice.. another success story for the memantine church, haha. x)

I think I might have seen you on another forum a ways back (or maybe just someone with a similar name)! Anyway, welcome.. hehe.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

The cult is growing fast !!!!!

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/15/3923.long
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2246087/?tool=pubmed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olney's_lesions


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> The cult is growing fast !!!!!
> 
> http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/15/3923.long
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2246087/?tool=pubmed
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olney's_lesions


The first study and olney's lessons arent an issue, has been discussed on mind and muscle before, i'l try to find the links, memantien is indeed capable of having a negative effect on cognition, atleast some paramaters, and improving other things, but generally it can be said to have a negative effect.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I know it's just some extra educational links to click back on for reference.

I'm not that worried about memantine


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> I know it's just some extra educational links to click back on for reference.
> 
> I'm not that worried about memantine


Yeah good idea to collect usefull info, il post the threads i talked about too so there's alot of information easily available.

I'm running out of wellbutrin so only took 150mg today, i seem to have a buzzing or dont know how to describe kinda euphoric sensation, and notice more energy and motivation, altough only very mild.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"kinda euphoric sensation"

I'm hoping that is a good thing for you?!?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Haha its not very interesting, but it seems like something happening atleast.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

You can't expect it to compete against euphoric subs like MDMA... 

Laugh, but I found buproprion a little too euphoric. It's funny that you're like "Meh.." where I was like "Whoa!!!?!!"


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm not expecting something mdma like, but its like a bit better then placebo euphoria, comes close to cafeine euphoria.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> You can't expect it to compete against euphoric subs like MDMA...
> 
> Laugh, but I found buproprion a little too euphoric. It's funny that you're like "Meh.." where I was like "Whoa!!!?!!"


I bet it was more potent in your case then haha


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"cafeine euphoria"

Well that sucks. 

The euphoria was pretty strong in my case, but then I do avoid most euphoric substances on purpose, so I probably am a lot more sensitive.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Probably haha.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I consider this to be day 1 of me 'liking' memantine. I do hope the stupefying effects level off though.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> I consider this to be day 1 of me 'liking' memantine. I do hope the stupefying effects level off though.


What effects do you like? Yeah they should soon dont worry!


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I care less about things. Very hard to describe. Dampening effect on obsessive thinking. Seems partially coupled to the stupefying effect.. It's almost like being drunk but sober.

The effects remind me a bit of SSRI's. At least some of the subjective effects are similar...

But damn, I feel pretty slow right now. Kinda like my IQ dropped several pts =D or I was hit on the head with a shovel and feel no pain.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Another hour and i'm getting older again haha.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I feel as if the dial for 'internal critic' has been turned down from 10 to about 4.

Your birthday comin up ?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah, turning 23 in a couple minutes, however big party for this weekend haha.

The anti ocd, internal chatter effects do indeed seem connected to the brainfog, however afterwards the brainfog turns into extra clarity with the same effects on internal chatter.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

That sounds so ****ing incredibly awesome. I really hope I get the same effect you describe... so far it seems like it could be so.... here's to my fingers being crossed fingers as well as wishing you a happy 23rd!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

thx man


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Crayzy,

I still feel out of it.

I've been taking 20mg first thing after waking up in the morning, then later on 20mg right before bed for a total of 40mg daily.

I wonder if it alters sleep. 

Crayzy, what was your daily dosing schedule like when you were on memantine?

I know it's still too early to say what memantine is gonna do for me since it is only day 10 of being on memantine...

Time feels strange, almost like its been one long extended day lasting 10 days. Sleep no longer seems to have final say on marking the boundaries of a day. 

Welcome to memantine limbo-land?


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Vilazodone, you are using it as monotherapy?


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Agomelatine 25mg.
Memantine 40mg.

That's (^) currently my daily routine.


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## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

Ok so I'm on agomelatine 25 and I am being tortured by my inner critic. Will memantine kill him?

I already feel out of it like all my days are blurred together. After taking Lamictal for a time, I feel like I've never actually slept again.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Memantine has a very good chance of making it better yes, nmda antagonism is the best for inner critic/ocd and that sort of stuff.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> Crayzy,
> 
> I still feel out of it.
> 
> ...


Took first in the morning and second dose 6 o clock int the evening, give it a bit more time mate


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Crayzy, I am plenty patient. So far am happy with memantine. 

Agomelatine is virtually free of side effects for me. My internal critic is in no way influenced by agomelatine. Agomelatine reduces existential unhappiness and is side-effect free for me. The only mild side effect is sometimes upset stomach. It is a perfect drug in my book, besides the potential for liver toxicity in a very minute .00% of people (ok, I exaggerate here), I know that's unfortunate, but NOTHING is perfect. Ago comes damn close in my book. I don't expect the world from it, the fact that it gives even slightest benefit is enough because pros FAR outweigh the cons. I've been on Ago for over 2 years now. NO other drug has performed this well for me for my problems: insomnia, MDD. 

Wonderful drug with ZERO serious complaints. True it isn't a silver bullet that works for all people but then NO DRUG IS!!!!

Please excuse my rambling but my thinking process is a bit slower than usual, this is in response to popeet. No, I'm not angry in the least but if I sound frustrated, well... The frustration is aimed at people placing too high expectations on a single substance. It is a miracle of human creativity that we can create substances that can even touch such diseases spawned by nature.

For me Agomelatine is NOT the drug on trial here.. Agomelatine for me is a MUST. What is currently up for decision is memantine and so far it is doing rather well, and I fully intend to be patient with it.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Word.. :]


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Agreed, there's no golden bullet, i think its a wonderfull thing tough we are getting several drugs with a minimal or barely any side effects, memantine, agomelatine and ketamine all come to mind.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I have to mildly disagree with ketamine having the same level of safety as memantine and agomelatine. I'm not saying ketamine is a dangerous substance, I'm just saying ketamine is probably not the best substance for chronic use. Other than that it is a fascinating substance, although I have little interest in it.

I think part of my success with mind-influencing drugs stems from the fact I have a very long list of drugs I won't even touch based on common sense principles. Not to say they are 'bad' or 'evil' just that there's too much associated risk surrounding them. Even one of my favorite substances, good old fashioned alcohol makes the banned list - I won't touch refined spirits - I hold them as off-limits. By restricting alcohol intake to moderate I limit myself to beer / wine. These can actually prove non-harmful in moderation.

No doubt someone will disagree with my theory, but it is only that - what works for me. Other people are free to choose what is best for themselves as far as I'm concerned.

Examples of substances which I don't even have a speck of curiousity in: meth, opium, heroin, vodka.

I am not demonizing, this is just a personal philosophy that has worked (very well) for me. Certain subs just have '*NO, I'm TOXIC!' *written all over them.

Certain things need to be approached with intelligence & caution. It is as harmful to have one's hands tied behind one's back by lacking freedom of choice, as it is also harmful to go rushing around like a fool. By this I *don't* mean that anyone who has ever tried ketamine is a fool, but certainly those who have tried it without objectively researching it first (to at least know if it is toxic or interacts with a medication) are acting somewhat foolish.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

My only complaint about memantine so far is a mild sense of derealization. It is somewhat discomforting to feel disconnected like this. I hope most of it goes away as the brain adapts.. But I'm only a few days into the target dose so it is way to soon to expect this ATM.


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## doze (Aug 9, 2010)

Yes, I felt the same way -but i call it depersonalization. First time I took memantine for about one week. it was ok in the beginning, but then I started feel very bad mentally: psychosis,fear,anxiety,cognitive decline. I had stopped it. When I started again i tried to titrate the dosage very slowly for couple weeks.unfortunatly, the result was the same - psychosis. I don't take it anymore. Now I taking adderall and xanax.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

doze, thank you very much for sharing your experience. I will certainly take it to heart and proceed with caution. 

I have yet to experience any change in personality or psychosis, just a bit of the odd side effects described before.

once again, thanks abundantly for sharing your own private matters, for me it is still a bit too early to tell, I'm definitely gonna try to give it at least a full month and if I'm still feeling whacky then I'll call it quits. But for now its fine. It only gets crazy around dusk for some reason, its like the memantine squirrels sense it's gonna be night time and decide its time to run around the skull.


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## popeet (Dec 8, 2005)

Thanks very much for the replies Crazyzy and Vilazodone. 

I was looking at NMDA antagonists and I'm worried that most of them will make my derealization/depersonalization disorder worse (I've had it for 16 years) though I'm so used to it at this point not sure if it matters. What's this about magnesium? How strong an NMDA antagonist is magnesium? Magnesium makes me feel so weird.

Vilazodone I understand your frustration with ungratefully high expectations of these single chemicals that are wondrous in their own right. It kind of silly to have unrealistic expectations, take things for granted and then complain that nothing helps. 

I don't have a problem with agomelatine at the moment, I just started it. I was reading the posts and noticed that you (or someone) needed something specifically for the inner critic, which is super acute for me right now. Like I'll do anything to make it stop, acute. In the spirit of appreciating the agomelatine and letting it do its thing, I was looking for something to augment it for my acute symptoms.

I've read some discouraging posts here at SAS about agomelatine, but I like to know firsthand. I really hope the agomelatine works for me as it does for you and a couple of others.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> I have to mildly disagree with ketamine having the same level of safety as memantine and agomelatine. I'm not saying ketamine is a dangerous substance, I'm just saying ketamine is probably not the best substance for chronic use. Other than that it is a fascinating substance, although I have little interest in it.
> 
> I think part of my success with mind-influencing drugs stems from the fact I have a very long list of drugs I won't even touch based on common sense principles. Not to say they are 'bad' or 'evil' just that there's too much associated risk surrounding them. Even one of my favorite substances, good old fashioned alcohol makes the banned list - I won't touch refined spirits - I hold them as off-limits. By restricting alcohol intake to moderate I limit myself to beer / wine. These can actually prove non-harmful in moderation.
> 
> ...


Ketamine doesnt need to be used chronically, the antidepressant effects last several weeks, read the ketamine guide ive posted here, therefor i would say its very safe and certainly not less safe then some of the other established drugs.

The remission ketamine can cause is incredible, like the newspaper said "ketamine works like magic", its definatly not the golden bullet, but its a very potent antidepressant.

I consider alcohol one of the most harmfull drugs, not acutely but the risk of addiction is way to high compared to its effects, besides that its aftereffects are insane for the "high" it can give.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> My only complaint about memantine so far is a mild sense of derealization. It is somewhat discomforting to feel disconnected like this. I hope most of it goes away as the brain adapts.. But I'm only a few days into the target dose so it is way to soon to expect this ATM.


Also take in mind it takes like 10 days to reach stable blood levels due to the long half life of 100 hours, your basicly thechnically still reasing the dose everyday.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

doze said:


> Yes, I felt the same way -but i call it depersonalization. First time I took memantine for about one week. it was ok in the beginning, but then I started feel very bad mentally: psychosis,fear,anxiety,cognitive decline. I had stopped it. When I started again i tried to titrate the dosage very slowly for couple weeks.unfortunatly, the result was the same - psychosis. I don't take it anymore. Now I taking adderall and xanax.


Thx for posting your experience, what dose did you take?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

popeet said:


> Thanks very much for the replies Crazyzy and Vilazodone.
> 
> I was looking at NMDA antagonists and I'm worried that most of them will make my derealization/depersonalization disorder worse (I've had it for 16 years) though I'm so used to it at this point not sure if it matters. What's this about magnesium? How strong an NMDA antagonist is magnesium? Magnesium makes me feel so weird.
> 
> ...


Agomelatine when compared to a SSRI, shows superior effiacy, combined with its positive side effect profile makes it a very good drug to give a try imo.


> J Clin Psychiatry. 2010 Feb;71(2):109-120.
> Efficacy of the novel antidepressant agomelatine on the circadian rest-activity cycle and depressive and anxiety symptoms in patients with major depressive disorder: a randomized, double-blind comparison with sertraline.
> 
> Kasper S, Hajak G, Wulff K, Hoogendijk WJ, Montejo AL, Smeraldi E, Rybakowski JK, Quera-Salva MA, Wirz-Justice AM, Picarel-Blanchot F, Baylé FJ.
> ...


Magnesium is a very weak nmda antagonist, its effects likely come from something differend, you could give memantine a try with slow titration to check wheter things get worse.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

@popeet:

I don't want to sound discouraging, but agomelatine hasn't done much for the 'judging' aspect of my mind. I'm sure this varies from person to person but compared to an SSRI, agomelatine is rather weak in this regard (only according to my own personal experience, per se).

Where agomelatine excels is in in realms that SSRI's didn't seem to touch for me: insomnia, existential strife, etc

@Crayzy:

This is link is sent jokingly & in good humor of course:




or
http://movieclips.com/geHJ5-catch-me-if-you-can-movie-do-you-concur/

(great movie btw, DiCaprio has been in a string of good movies, IMO. He usually has good taste in which movies he chooses to act in, though I can't say all the movies he's starred in were as good)


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> No doubt someone will disagree with my theory, but it is only that - what works for me. Other people are free to choose what is best for themselves as far as I'm concerned.


Agreed 100%, MDMA is a drug wich turned my life completely, and pretty much saved my life (no other recreational drug had those benefits for me, its also my paradoxal reaction to it wich contributed to my positive experience (wich only became aperant in the long run) as the next day i was free of SA wich gave me the ability to build confidence and stuff.

Besides that i use MDMA to cure my of depression, atleast it never fails to kick me out of depressive episodes. Offcourse abuse can induce depression.

But without doubt that for others its actually staying away of those substances wich is the key, its something completely personally dependent, its whatever works for you and no recommedations can be made regarding this.

I can allways apreciate good humor!


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## doze (Aug 9, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Thx for posting your experience, what dose did you take?


initial dose was 5mg -felt like psychodelic exp
I went up to 10mg after 1week(i dont rem exactly) and stayed for a while
first couple weeks on memantine/adderall combo I was motivated and had periods with no social anxiety. But after 2-3 weeks motivational effect dissapiared and general anxiety increased.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

So the first few weeks it did work? What about taking breaks of amphetamine while on memantine? 10mg is low for tolerance but it should help, another option may be trying DXM or augmenting memantine with acamprosate.


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## doze (Aug 9, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> So the first few weeks it did work? What about taking breaks of amphetamine while on memantine?


First 2-3 weeks it did, yes.But I am very sensitive to memantine, i can't take it regulary and live normal life. maybe I will try ocasional ketamine instead, while taking breaks of amphetamine. have you tried it?


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Yeah, sounds right. Some people just don't react too well to it... if you get there, no need to try to fool yourself of course, but giving it around 10 days if it's not bad at first is definitely at least worth a shot. Agreed on vodka being way down there on the "list" btw.

Memantine's D2 activation (and/or just the overall cholinergic undermining) I remember would give me a bit of trouble... nothing close to psychosis/discomfort, but that *has* been reported by people prone to it, as bben mentioned. However, I was just using it for tolerance-related stuff, and on its own had no need for it, so I stopped when that reason ran thin. 

Also, dang, I have had some vivid dreams every night on baclofen+carvedilol... (not advertising/recommending it or anything, I'm kind of a special case w/ baclo heh) must be from the inhibited NE-drive. I feel like I just live in them, uninterrupted, until I choose to wake up lol.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I ran out of wellbutrin yesterday, atleast then i only took 150mg instead of 450mg, dont have any today either as i couldnt get a script because im still waiting for my money, and i sure noticed i felt better on wellbutrin, it has a mild but significant anxiolytic effect and was motivation, i do miss it, wellbutrin is good stuff.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

doze said:


> First 2-3 weeks it did, yes.But I am very sensitive to memantine, i can't take it regulary and live normal life. maybe I will try ocasional ketamine instead, while taking breaks of amphetamine. have you tried it?


I took methoxetamine every 3 hours for several weeks, cant really comment on tolerance effectiveness tough as i didnt have much stims for the past weeks.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Ok, today I think today is Day 4 of being @ target dose of 40mg.

...so, Day 4 Report:

I still feel dumb as *$H1T!* A strange feeling of impaired cognitive ability being severely sleep-deprived :sus except without the psychic-pain that would normally accompany such a state.

Lol. this is a truthful report, not trying to smear memantine or anything like that. Still giving it plenty of time & the benefit of the doubt :mum. I can't write worth crap right now but I attribute it to the unrefreshing quality of sleep, hopefully due to adjustment to mo-fo (is that even a word?) memantine. fingers-crossed. please keep memantine comments in response somewhat free of negativity.. I only want to feel *positively* toward memantine at this time in hopes if that if I click my heels 3 times this will all eventually go away like some magical fairytale Cinderella, Snow white and the 10 Stooges, flying monkies or whatever the hell I'm talking about... ok Im not THAT impaired, but its getting really fraggin close to me just rambling on and on like that..

Note that this post had to be edited several times in order for it to even make sense, if it even does... which I have a hard time telling right now, but strangely I don't really care that much. Strange.

I intend on giving it my all. I really want this bull-donkey to plough some fields.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Vilazodone - have you considered that some of these effects could possibly from an alteration (strengthening or otherwise) of the agomelatine by the memantine?

Just saying... cuz remembering back to some of my trials with baclofen + memantine, it caused the baclofen to last like 8 hours longer, and amplified even low doses to the extent that they would nearly knock me out. ;P

Something to consider.. hang in there a bit longer, nonetheless, if you're seeing positives.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Day5 @ 40mg:

Cons:
Still feeling stoooooopid. 
Some very mild nausea.
Feeling sort of drunk & uncoordinated.

Pros:
Anxiolytic stupor: For me it is almost as anxiolytic as an SSRI, obsessive mulling is practically gone.
Strange sense of calm and peace, as if a dump truck were to run over me today it would somehow be ok. Possibly the most positive thing about this so far.

Side effects aren't quite as bad as yesterday. Still woke up feeling somewhat unrefreshed from sleep. But the good news is if everything were averaged today so far is better than yesterday, by prob 5-15% is my guess.

Granted it is still rather early.

@: gosh, I already forgot who I was responding to... but this question
*"Vilazodone - have you considered that some of these effects could possibly from an alteration (strengthening or otherwise) of the agomelatine by the memantine?"

Well, I don't know for certain but my guess is almost certainly, NO. It certainly does not feel like I'm on more agomelatine. I know what higher doses of agomelatine feels like, having taken up to 75mg in excess before in one night... agomelatine is only really noticeable on the first couple days of me taking it too. This isn't the same for everyone though(!!), some people do take weeks on agomelatine to get results. I know this firsthand.

oh my im so stupid... sorry if this is incoherent or something.

zodiac I will keep that possibility in mind though, thanks


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Gotcha. Honestly, I would say you ramped up to 40mg way too fast, man. It's pretty hardcore stuff, given to alzheimer's patients (for its neuroprotective properties) at ONLY 20mg/day max.

I dunno, I guess you can keep it up now that you're there... but just don't be afraid to lower it. As crayzy said, it builds up in your system, hence the need to titrate up over WEEKS, and by 5mg at a time.. to *feel* what the most appropriate dosage is for you (i.e. when your body stops being able to adapt to it well)... instead of DAYS, in 10mg increments like you did. :/

It's a strong dissociative, and at a slightly lower dose, most of the positives are likely to stay while the more dissociative effects wouldn't be overwhelming for your body to get used to faster.

Just more thinking out loud -- do as you wish. 
-z


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"too fast"

:lol

it's still only day5 (@ the 40mg dosage, that is) and the side effects aren't terrible enough yet to make me call it quits. 40mg feels noticeably different than the lower doses, but of course wasn't there long enough to tell for certain... But it didn't feel very anxiolytic until the day I hit 30mg then the easy-going feeling began, almost like being stuck permanently in happy-hour


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Pharmacological options to stop my amp addiction, altough i'm not really addicted, i just take too much once i'm getting started.

NAC
Ibogaine
Acamprosate
Memantine
Vigabatrin
Modafinil
Topiramate
Lobeline
Wellbutrin
Magnesium
DXM
Baclofen
Rimonabant
Naltrexone
Oxytocin
Clonidine
Tiagabin
Varenicline 
Cholinergics
Salvia


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Salvia is pure awesomesauce. Nothing has made me understand the objective nature of my ego better than Salvia. I don't know what it would do for addiction though.. I've never been seriously addicted to a substance before so I'm probably not the best reference.

You know there are professionally run ibogaine clinics that specialize in addiction. That may be an option if you feel you have an addiction. That is probably the most important first step of addiction is realization. The only problem with addiction is that abstinence from the substance in question is almost (almost is stressed here) always the only solution. Are you ready for that? 

You're making Amphs sound scary. I guess there's a reason why they came up with substances like lisdexamfetamine. 

Is cost the main issue? What is the issue here Crayzy? Be realistic and honest.

Sorry my writing ability has deteriorated a bit, but I'm still coherent enough to realize I'm forgetting to insert a word or two here and there.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ibogaine wont really work for me as i'm only addicted to amp once i start taking it, i can take a break and not take it, however once i get started i abuse, pretty much just a recreational drug use, however this is a bad idea when trying to use amp therapeutically.

AMP is the ONLY thing that works against my social anxiety, i want to keep on taking it.

I only took amp oral, vyvanse wont help.

Cost is an issue yes so i'm only amp a couple days each month, however the real issue is that recreational doses are bad therapeutically, id ignore all important things to be able to stay online and listen music.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

With regards to salvia:


> Acta Pharmacol Sin. 2010 Sep;31(9):1065-70. Epub 2010 Aug 23.
> The role of kappa-opioid receptor activation in mediating antinociception and addiction.
> Wang YH, Sun JF, Tao YM, Chi ZQ, Liu JG.
> 
> ...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> You're making Amphs sound scary.


Its more just part of my personality haha.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

In my run in with amphetamine I remember the feeling of (somewhat false) power it gave. It would make me a socially bolder person. (ie mildly psychotic). Convincing the mind it is more powerful than it actually is... I'm not saying you get the same response here.

A certain amount of this is certainly positive. People need to be able to assert themselves socially, it's how the world works. Confidence is key to that. 

Confrontation with people can become a burden when there is a 400# critic sitting on top our shoulders wherever we go. 

I wish I had a solution here, but I don't. I certainly do know where you are coming from though (minus the binging issues of course).

True amphs work, they almost work too well if you know what I mean. SSRI's have helped me before, but then some people respond very bad to them. 

In any case, it is certainly good that you are aware of the issue and are proceeding with caution, I respect that. I think if anyone is to find a pharmaceutical solution it wouldn't surprise me if it were to be someone like you to find it.

*I am of course assuming you are already familiar with salvia. Dysphoria is not the most accurate word in my experience to describe it...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm consider trying low daily doses coadministered with amp, experiments are my thing haha, but i'm sure il figure it out.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Salvia is trash IMO. Horrible feeling that is mostly very unhealthy, is all I ever got from it, usually followed by headache. I'm all about self-discovery/occasional trips, but there are far better things than salvia for that kind of thing. Amazed you have such positive words for it, Vilazodone. XD

Crayzy!
None of those on the list will fix the issue per se, as the issue is part of your personality. I've made "lists" like that before when I ran into a road block, cuz they're exciting opportunities that might have potential... but honestly, you have to realize sooner or later that* that's just avoiding the issue*. Those kinds of things we have to work on ourselves and substances or "trials" simply aren't gonna help with. If you find such therapeutic help from amp, just learn how to use it without overdoing it -- you HAVE to.. that part is up to you, entirely. Our personality is such a powerful tool (even look into hypnosis and how it works - not saying to get hypnotised per se, just to check out the power that *uniting with your subconscious* towards a certain goal brings, vs. being sporadic and prone to binges as you always mentioned you are etc.)... but again, in the end it's up to you.

You just have to fully realize and respect the importance of therapeutic amp ...and nothing can be a shortcut to that kind of learning, certainly not any additional substances (especially about 95% of those).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ive tried to limit my amp use since last year januri every month when i got a supply. Those substances have shown effiacy in addicts so they do indeed work, in fact wellbutrin was succesfull with 4FA when i tried it, the nicotinic antagonism helps you to feel satisfied after certain doses.

I cant even take stimulants without overdosing and turning nearly psychotic, 90% of the times i used stimulant rc's i needed alcohol afterwards to reverse the extreme paranoia of a overdose as i just start compulsively take ****.

While wellbutrin helped, it wasnt enough, but i still have to try it with amp.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

While I respectfully disagree with the "Salvia is trash" bit, I have to also agree with MUCH of what Zodiac just said.

At the same time, I'm not going to discourage someone who seems cautious and intelligent about trying to find a real-world physical solution to the problem. Just be careful and realistic, and if it comes down to what zodiac is saying then it may be one of those pesky 'mind over matter' issues... which is an issue I don't want to get into bc I don't entirely agree with that theory. 

I think Crayzy knows he is in potentially dangerous territory. That is why awhile back I asked him what he would do if he had an unlimited lifetime supply of Amphs... would he use and use and use.. in other words how much would be enough or would it continue to escalate to the point of no return. I think he's well aware of the possible dangers.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm sure crayzy's got rational reasoning behind many of those on the list, which IS good of course. If anyone's got some good ideas for it, it'd be that guy haha. But your description of the problem has reached the point where, with my expertise, I can confidently step in and say "WAIT... it is indeed a mind issue first and foremost." And owing to that, most of these trials will help only a little bit with the binging part of the problem... at best.

The reason being that... you have to have the right mindset to truly be able to reap the benefits thereof^ (which substances on their own can't teach) and for that right mindset, there just can't be this wrong-approach disconnection of "I'm doing this and I'm doing that" - almost like a third-person observation as if you've got no control over it. Stop and think.. you *are* what you're doing and no matter what you may think to the contrary, you have more control over it than you can ever imagine. That is the power of placebo (goal + belief). Even after that first dose of amp enters your system and the remission/euphoria messes with this judgment skill slightly, it's still the same skill involved, just with the difficulty ramped way up. ;P

And that skill has to be learned (which you have, surely) and *perfected* (which I can safely say you haven't, yet, since no one is perfect ). Only then will the problem cease to plague you.

Alas, since I don't see myself getting much of the right meaning across with just forum posts, I hope some of those do turn out to help -- but just keep what I was saying in mind as you run some of those, especially if your options become exhausted... that's all I ask.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"I cant even take stimulants without overdosing and turning nearly psychotic"

I am not saying this is the case. *But*. You should at least consider it *as an option* that *maybe* perhaps Amphs aren't the drug for you. This is *not* saying to discontinue the quest for the Holy Grail. Of course you will know what is in your own best interest I trust.

I would be very surprised to find salvia working how you intend.. It's not a refined drug with a pharmacological purpose in other words. Though it is true I've never tried it chronic low dose. I have tried it in many ways though, even fresh. Quidding never worked for me. There is only one or two routes I haven't tried salvia, one of them I'm still curious about.

People's experience with the Sage differ. For me the peak was like a glimpse of enlightenment in the fashion of Zen, more of a personless awareness rather than some exotic trip to weirdoland.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Amp is definatly for me, or other stimulants as i only respond to dopamine releasers, i dont even get sa relief from GHB, alcohol, opiates, benzo's or other ****, even tough i could be high as ****, euphoria doesnt help my SA, i need dopamine release.

Amphetamine also makes me feel normal, so do all other dopamine releasers, i need them, i just need to stop abusing them then i'm fixed of my issues as low doses work remarkeble well.

My ocd is really bad and amp cures me of it completely.
There's no doubt stimulants are the key for me.

I will figure out the abuse issue, i'm 100% sure of that, just need to do some experimenting, and it seems wellbutrin helped a ton with 4FA.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> there just can't be this wrong-approach disconnection of "I'm doing this and I'm doing that" - almost like a third-person observation as if you've got no control over it. Stop and think..


Its not like i think i shouldnt take more, but i cant control it, i actually think its allright to take more as id only do it just once, then after a certain point the euphoria makes me not cure anymore at all and think amp abuse ftw! haha.

I agree tough mindset is important too, but i beleive pharmaceutical solutions will make that mindset possible.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"Amp is definatly for me"

Crayzy, with all due respect I am not disagreeing with you. I am only saying to keep it available as a last-ditch option if $h1t goes bad.

"i can't control it"

It is good that you are aware.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm gonna fix this for 100% mark my words or my name isnt crayzymed! I get your point tough, but well see how its gonna work out.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Well I'll be pullin for you. 

Memantine so far has impressed me, I could see how it could potentially interact with other subs. I still don't expect a miracle from it though.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Time for some music!


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I agree tough mindset is important too, but i beleive pharmaceutical solutions will make that mindset possible.


Indeed. 

100% - your words have been marked! jk jk (but not really... bahah)!


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Time for some music!


Listening :b


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I took some oxcarbazepine to try and counteract brainzaps wich i still had a bit after i stopped amt again, brainzaps have been associated with convulsant like activity so would be interesting to see wheter it would work, after taking it i suddenly noticed that i lost my idea to redose wich i was planning to do now since 3FMC doesnt work anymore because of the lack of a NMDA antagonist, but i also usually took a whole gram in several hours because even then it didnt even match the effects of 10mg dex, so i kept redosing a ****load lol but it doesnt get much better i was just losing my money. Right now im waiting till the time period has passed it normally works wich i around 4 hours before id try a redose, some never before soon **** lol.

So looked up some info on this ****:


> [Efficacy of oxcarbazepine treatment in patients diagnosed with cocaine abuse/dependence].
> [Article in Spanish]
> 
> Llopis Llácer JJ, Castillo Aguilella A.
> ...


It makes sense as i think impulsivity is my biggest problem.

Its too early to make conclusions, but maybe i wont be without stimulants most of the month this time. B)

Still need to get wellbutrin back, wich was helping my ADHD.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Was posted on mind and muscle:


> Oxcarbazepine is great stuff, I've used it a few times for managing tramadol withdrawals. It is amazing, it just kills it, I mean every fkin symtom is eliminated, except for some fatigue. If someone had told me the first time I've quit tramadol that I would be able to work, travel and socialize without problems during the peak of "withdrawals" (and go to sleep completely without any effort!!!!) I would have laughed and shook my head in disbelief. I can't get why it's not in any widespread clinical use for addictions (it's been documented to be effective in alcohol and benzo withdrawals also, not just opioids). Stuff like clonidine is totally ineffective for me during the two first weeks of wd, whereas I'm almost 100% fine on oxcarbazepine.


I replied:
Yeah a 100% response rate in that cocaine study too.. and without expecting it BAM suddenly lost my compulsive overdosing on stims, i dont understand either why it isnt more widespread for treating addiction.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I got one bit of constructive criticism for you Crayzy in regards to:

"Still need to get wellbutrin back"

It seems like inadequate resources has made it difficult for you to keep up a stable routine. Do you think this can be somewhat problematic and possibly a source that is negatively skewing your results? 

One thing I notice when my routine gets patchy and (when essential) things are left out (due to finances , procrastination, or whatever) is I tend to deteriorate. For example, while scrimping on agomelatine I start getting insomnia and other issues. 

Crayzy, what 2-3 substances do you consider to be the essential core of your routine? (and why not start from there and maintain that part while seeing what else you can add / fit in while keeping that core part of your routine still intact?). For example, memantine.. you say you did well on it, I'm taking it and it seems very promising.. so why not be on it then?

I'm just saying... it has helped me immensely to prioritize the substances which give me the most bang for the buck.

Also, one more minor quip. Trileptal seems a bit dirty. True it probably isn't any more toxic than amphetamine.

From an outsider's perspective it somewhat seems like *for the time being* amphetamine doesn't make the cut for you (just listening to your troubles with it and coming up with an impression from listening to you)... It seems like it is still in the "experimental / trying-to-find-a-solution-for" pile. Ie, possibly should be delegated to the non-core part of your routine. I say this unemotionally too, I have no bias either.. this is just the impression I get listening to the troubles you say you're having.

I say this because you seem to be trying to find a solution to make amphetamine a workable daily substance for you, but so far haven't found a solution that works well enough to be considered feasible.

I really wish I could communicate better what I'm trying to say. It's kind of hard to convey the message as I mean it in written form.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Only taking trileptal besides GBL and stimulants right now, have still lost the compulsive urge to redose, ive been sitting here mostly sober for the last few hours as i want to save some stims and redose less, wouldnt have ever done it before. But i need a few weeks to get a good conclusion.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I never really planned trileptal for this, i just happened to try it for brainzaps and then suddenly noticed i lost my compulsive redosing, wich is promosing but well have to see...


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Day 7 memantine @40mg. 

Side effects are about 5% less disturbing than day 5. I still feel somewhat strange sleepy and sedated feeling. Other than that I can say it's working out alright. If it doesn't completely go away I can always drop to 30 or 20mg but I definitely see positives in memantine.

* 
I would describe the + effects as: mildly anxiolytic, moderately disinhibiting on social behavior (friends are often caught off gaurd by this and it is funny too). 
Interesting stuff.

*
The only area I feel it to be lacking (and it's still too early to tell) is motivational / drive (memantine feels almost the opposite of motivating, currently as being pacifying, calming almost to the point of sedation depending on the time of the day)... where probably something like amph comes in... Also, there is still the fact I still feel mildly retarded. But the retardation seems to be slowly dripping away. I'm not used to feeling this stupid so I can't say I like it. Working memory is still a bit off too.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Good news mate.

Dont worry about the trileptal thing, i'm well aware i can only safely make conclusions after several weeks of using it.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

One strange phenomenon I've noticed with memantine is that my sense of taste is somewhat changed. Bitter foods like dark chocolate and coffee taste blander and not so bitter. Also creamy foods like milk or ice-cream taste blander, ie not as creamy.. 

just some odds and ends sort of observations.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Re: "after several weeks"

I must have failed to communicate what I actually meant here.. That wasn't what I was referring to Crayzy... I'm afraid I can't accurately articulate what I'm trying to say. Just re-read the previous message above ^^ if you have time please.

If Tripleptal does work as you say I'm not saying "don't give it a trial" I'm just wondering that one week you're on bupropion and then the next it is now Trileptal. It seems like a somewhat erratic pattern. I'm *not* accusing you of not knowing what you're up to. There *is* an inherent challenge of keeping one's supply up to dose daily at target for bupropion, (memantine?), GBL, stims, (AMT?), and now trileptal...

Maybe you can somehow manage all of that (I don't know how).. but I know I certainly couldn't (most people would have a hard time I think). I'm guessing my limit is probably 3-4 bonafide drugs max, not counting supplements... and I'm not just figuring in supply issues either.

I think you may be missing out from the benefit of consistency. I think that is what I'm trying to say, summed up in one sentence. As an example, right now everything I'm experiencing is out of whack... my brain is still adjusting to a new substance.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Well i do consider abusing amp for a short period every moment with breaks everyime much better compared to no amp at all, a week of no ocd, being really social etc is definatly of benefit in my case, the problem is that such doses arent very good if i would take them daily wich i cant anyway due to financial reasons. If i do want to keep on taking amphetamine everyday i do need to reduce my doses.

I other words, i prefer my current situation to the time i never had amphetamine.

Also, i cant really give this stuff a good try if i dont try it with the substances i abuse, because thats the exact reason i want to try it.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> If Tripleptal does work as you say I'm not saying "don't give it a trial" I'm just wondering that one week you're on bupropion and then the next it is now Trileptal. It seems like a somewhat erratic pattern. I'm *not* accusing you of not knowing what you're up to.


I need to go to a differend docter everytime to get a wellbutrin script as the max dose here is 150mg and i take 450mg, but sometimes doing that makes me anxious so i stall or avoid making up a story to get a script, so i end up without meds, really have to plan this better.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> Re: "after several weeks"
> 
> I must have failed to communicate what I actually meant here.. That wasn't what I was referring to Crayzy... I'm afraid I can't accurately articulate what I'm trying to say. Just re-read the previous message above ^^ if you have time please.
> 
> ...


The only drug i want to limit dosing with it amphetamine, i only used GBL and AMT succesfully in the past, never had any issues with those, its user dependent, for some GBL is one of the most destructive things.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

There's got to be a place online to get bupropion for cheap, that way script for the cookie-cutter 150mg could be augmented by an online bupropion source?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Thats what im planning or just ordering everything online, but right now untill ive got my memantine and wellbutrin back i'm giving this one a trial.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

so far I can definitely second memantine.. it is amazing how much an anxiolytic it is.. if it weren't for the sedated feeling it would feel like a milder form of sertraline without the side effects. 

got to give you 2 thumbs up for advising memantine.. its amazing that it is as old as 1968... but feels cleaner than subs from the 90's.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Thats very good news man, i hope the benefits will continue for you.

My amp situation cant get out of control because i dont have means to get a huge supply, if i did it may end badly tough, so i know i gotta do something about it, but for now i am better off with my amp supply's then without them.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Just keep this thought in reserve:

"If push comes to shove, amphs are not worth my life."

Anything with the potential of stealing autonomy needs to be treated with caution. Just saying be prepared in case you somehow get a lifetime supply of stims dumped in your lap and aren't yet ready... I have to admit that I would certainly be frightened if I were put in that scenario... It would scare the $h!t out of me if there was a sub out there which had that kind of potential.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Vilazodone said:


> Day 7 memantine @40mg.
> 
> Side effects are about 5% less disturbing than day 5. I still feel somewhat strange sleepy and sedated feeling. Other than that I can say it's working out alright. If it doesn't completely go away I can always drop to 30 or 20mg but I definitely see positives in memantine.
> 
> ...


Good update.  And yeh, I hear ya on the motivation thing... mem does have a bit of a "D2-like" drive activation at first, but for me that all but vanished after a while (while the overall endocrine inhibition and the obviously-awesome tolerance-reversal effects never really did). Might need something else there to counteract... not sure, everyone's way different, heh.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Thats very good news man, i hope the benefits will continue for you.
> 
> My amp situation cant get out of control because i dont have means to get a huge supply, if i did it may end badly tough, so i know i gotta do something about it, but for now i am better off with my amp supply's then without them.


Yep.. agreed with Vila... always remember you've gotta become ready for teh endless-supply concept first.

 Keep up the progress... remembering that it happens from the inside, while the other subs help "symptomatically" so you can learn it better.

It's a lot of work, but what important thing in life ever isn't a lot of work?! This HAS to happen or you'll find yourself back @ "square 1" a lot in the future IMO.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

For some reason it seems really easy on oxcarbemazepine, im just sitting here relaxed after a dose and i have no problem staying at certain doses, i used to have like a ocd like urge to take more, and allways had to take more a few minutes after a previous dose couldnt even wait till the first once's kicked so i often overdosed on stuff.

Its a rather mindblowing difference haha, but its still really early.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Right..  genius experimenter as yourself knows that it is indeed too early... but nonetheless, wow; even sitting here reading, I'm really hard-pressed not to say how happy I am for ya with this find. x)

Staying tuned..!


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Day8:

Side effect profile is generally better. My thought process is less impaired than even yesterday. Typing sentences isn't as difficult.

However, I can't charactarize memantine currently as being anxiolytic... there is some very mild paranoia that replaced the anxiolytic effect. Meh, I can always reduce dosage but probably need to stay 1 more week at this dosage to tell how 40mg is going to perform.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

Vilazodone, what are you going to treat with memantine?


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

mild ocd (I'm not sure how successful it is so far), social inhibition (somewhat successful in this category), maybe even lingering MDD a little bit (but recently some paranoia has settled in place of the mild gut nausea and anxiolytic effects)..

if memantine proves beneficial solo (well its not truly solo since there is agomelatine in the equation), I may even consider adding lisdexamfetamine to the mix... This is bc stimulants such as caffeine seem to abolish/ameliorate the mild feeling of angst in the gut... which I don't think is purely a product of memantine.. I only think that memantine has made me more sensative to it (pre-existing fear of a sort, almost like a natural fear my brain once upon a time became dead to but has once again come alive with reperfused tissue to put it in a biological metaphor)... bc around friends I am much less inhibited now while on memantine, I almost don't care about embarrassing myself by saying something completely stupid-ridiculous / or not-even-funny. I even poke good natured fun at one of my good friends now, whereas I wouldn't before out of fear of accidently offending him

But then I am still somewhat leary of too much DA-ergic tampering for obvious reasons.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Vilazodone said:


> But then I am still somewhat leary of too much DA-ergic tampering for obvious reasons.


Definitely.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Just being supportive of Crayzy..

It's a mad world... :blank


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Bad News Theory:

Exiba (or European) memantine is different than the Indian source memantine.

Just took same dose of Exiba and for some reason it feels stronger which leads me to believe the Indian source is cut with excipients and other fillers, ie there is less active medication per tablet than claimed. 

This is just my first impression, sorry if it differs than yours CM.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I preferred the indian one for some reason haha.


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

Indian sources sucks :yes


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

If its weaker one extra a day and the problem is fixed for still a cheaper price, indian sources ftw!


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## metamorphosis (Dec 18, 2008)

zodiac55 said:


> Right..  genius experimenter as yourself knows that it is indeed too early... but nonetheless, wow; even sitting here reading, I'm really hard-pressed not to say how happy I am for ya with this find. x)
> 
> Staying tuned..!


"The Edge...there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."
-Dr. Hunter S. Thompson


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

Well I have began my second go at Memantine and am at 10MG so far. I am approaching the dosing schedule a little differently this time and am instead taking it in the late afternoon/evening which has proven more tolerable than my first try with this substance since it has an overwhelmingly exhausting and sedating effect on me. In addition to this I am doing two other things differently: trying to not take any adderall or dexedrine for the entire first week (not an easy task for me as I have been taking this stuff almost daily for my ADHD, save for the day or two I try to take off on a regular basis) and I have also recently added sertraline to my med schedule, which interestingly enough I have found to greatly reduce the dosage of amphetamines I need to see any benefits. 

I intend to rapidly titrate up to 30MG/day and let myself stabilize on that dosage before deciding to increase or decrease. So far the brain fog doesn't seem to be nearly as problematic as my first trial, however the overwhelming feeling of exhaustion and weakness is just as strong as ever...hopefully this subsides completely unlike the first time! My reason for trying memantine again is it seems to be the only chance I have of regaining the pro social effects that I once got from my adderall/dex and possibly making it a sustainable treatment solution for both ADHD and SA. If this does not occur I feel regular use of a benzo will likely be required (as much as I would like to avoid this!) Any thoughts on a substance that I could potentially cycle with a benzo to avoid dependence? Baclofen seems like it may be worth a try, any others I should look into? 

Keep up the informative discussion, this thread continues to be an awesome resource!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Other options could be DXM and acamprosate for amphetamine tolerance.

What about phenibut? A short acting benzo cycles with phenibut should work i think, if nmda antagonists for for phenibut tolerance since that one has a massive tolerance issue, i found memantine effective for GBL tolerance tough.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for the input CrazyMed, I will have to look into these other substances. Is daily co-administration of DXM with amphetamines safe though? I looked into this some time ago but shyed away after reading conflicting reports, with some saying it was an extremely dangerous combo and although I think this was for recreational doses of both substances I decided to ere on the side of caution. I'm hoping that memantine works out for me this time, but its good to know I have other options for tolerance control if it doesn't!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

It is safe when using low doses for tolerance, for more info on dosing read this thread:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=501875

Im currently takng DXM in combination with amphetamine till i can add memantine again.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Acamprosate research with regards to anxiety, im posting this in light of another member try it for anxiety here, in case other might get interested.



> Ann Pharmacother. 2010 Dec;44(12):1930-2. Epub 2010 Nov 9.
> Acamprosate calcium as augmentation therapy for anxiety disorders.
> Schwartz TL, Siddiqui UA, Raza S, Costello A.
> 
> ...





> Open-Label Trial of Acamprosate as a Treatment for Anxiety
> Marc Hertzman, MD, Ivy S. Patt, PhD, and Lisa A. Spielman, PhD
> Private practice, Rockville, Maryland (all authors)
> Corresponding author.
> ...


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

> RESULTS: Thirteen patients enrolled in the study and received study medication. Acamprosate reduced anxiety symptoms (mean HAM-A score reduction to 8.87 from a baseline of 20). Sixty-two percent of patients receiving acamprosate achieved remission (HAM-A score ≤ 7). Modal dose was 1998 mg/day (range 999-1998). The most commonly reported adverse events were nausea (n = 1), gastrointestinal upset (n = 1), and increased dream activity (n = 1).


^^Interesting stuff up there. No experience with it thus far; and I'm moving away from GABAergics for a bit, so no upcoming experiences either. 

I love when the forums BB code or w/e will replace stuff like 8 ) with smileys... funny to see them in study results randomly, being so serious but having emoticons hehe.

Say, anyone got any ideas on what (if anything? maybe NMDA antagonists by a long-stretch?) could help reset tolerance to caffeine effects again? I always hear from long-time coffee people that they're gettin that effect of "just being normal" on 6 cups per day and stuff... scary.  I wanna help sometimes, but have no idea.

They never wanna taper down. xD


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

...A run for the money, and at least you were heard. 

Now the question is... has it been antics or reality? If what I assume is the 'cover' state is going to end up being the new norm then what a sad farce. 

What can you say when neither option is good. 

To speak in half truths when one can either lie or simply tell the truth.

So based off these assumptions about memantine I am considering tapering down to a lower dose. 

I must have adjusted my dose too rapidly... so a bit too many side effects.


This sums up my experience with a lot of medications.

not bashing memantine or anything.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> ...A run for the money, and at least you were heard.
> 
> Now the question is... has it been antics or reality? If what I assume is the 'cover' state is going to end up being the new norm then what a sad farce.
> 
> ...


What do you mean? I'm a bit confused by your post.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Think I took too much memantine, too fast. So need to decrease to a more reasonable dosage. My fault for being impatient.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

KW5789 said:


> Thanks for the input CrazyMed, I will have to look into these other substances. Is daily co-administration of DXM with amphetamines safe though? I looked into this some time ago but shyed away after reading conflicting reports, with some saying it was an extremely dangerous combo and although I think this was for recreational doses of both substances I decided to ere on the side of caution. I'm hoping that memantine works out for me this time, but its good to know I have other options for tolerance control if it doesn't!


As posted by medline, caroverine appears to work well for tolerance isseus too.


> @crayzyMed: You can handle GBL well, I can't. I thought about a combination of a potent stimulant, clonazepam and caroverine. From my experience it can effectively reverse tolerance to both stimulants and GABAergic drugs and it's much cheaper than memantine. Also no problems with side effects. There's an ultra-high dose i.v. preparation that is used for alcohol withdrawal and tinnitus and even this is said to be very benign. From time to time I will alternate clonazepam with desoxyphenobarbital. What do you think about that regimen?


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Unluckily caroverine is just available in very few countries in europe. I found two online source, but they are located in korea and I have no clue if they are reliable and sell to private persons. You good guys should stick with memantine.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm hoping I can stick with memantine this time, so far the experience has been remarkably different with the addition of an SSRI (sertraline 50MG daily.) I actually feel a greater sense of well being and contentment with memantine alone now (it was exactly the opposite during my first trial) and substantially less brain fog upon dosage increases despite titrating far more rapidly than the first time. Unfortunately the familiar feeling of being hopelessly exhausted and weak on it is present, I'm not too concerned about this yet as I understand this is probably to be expected during the re adjustment phase...I'm just hoping it eventually goes away unlike the first time! This is no doubt exacerbated by my attempt to abstain from any adderall or dexedrine for the first week so I really can't be sure how much it is the memantine causing this yet (just 3 more days until I will allow myself to return to my adderall/dex regimine now...can't come soon enough!)


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

KW5789 said:


> I'm hoping I can stick with memantine this time, so far the experience has been remarkably different with the addition of an SSRI (sertraline 50MG daily.) I actually feel a greater sense of well being and contentment with memantine alone now (it was exactly the opposite during my first trial) and substantially less brain fog upon dosage increases despite titrating far more rapidly than the first time. Unfortunately the familiar feeling of being hopelessly exhausted and weak on it is present, I'm not too concerned about this yet as I understand this is probably to be expected during the re adjustment phase...I'm just hoping it eventually goes away unlike the first time! This is no doubt exacerbated by my attempt to abstain from any adderall or dexedrine for the first week so I really can't be sure how much it is the memantine causing this yet (just 3 more days until I will allow myself to return to my adderall/dex regimine now...can't come soon enough!)


I wouldn't necessarily *assume* that any feelings of weakness or exhaustion are going to pass on a memantine regimen... after all, it is a pretty serious pharm with distinct effects (which, in the end, are really very inhibitory, so..). Sounds like you're OK/on the right track so far... cuz yes, they might pass -- but just remember to keep a close listen to your self.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm not necessarily expecting the sedating effects to pass with time (especially considering my first experience) but right now I am feeling very optimistic about memantine after today. I impulsively decided to jump right up to 30MG today fully expecting to plunge into a state of total confusion but to my amazement I actually experienced the slightest hint of brain fog which lifted quickly and left me feeling remarkably motivated and anxiety free. Of course its far too early to come to any conclusions yet, but so far memantine has been a totally different experience this time around. I'm very impressed and glad I decided to revisit this substance! I will try to stay at 30MG/day for some time now but am ready to drop down to a more reasonable dose and titrate more gradually if any negatives return.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

KW5789 said:


> I'm not necessarily expecting the sedating effects to pass with time (especially considering my first experience) but right now I am feeling very optimistic about memantine after today. I impulsively decided to jump right up to 30MG today fully expecting to plunge into a state of total confusion but to my amazement I actually experienced the slightest hint of brain fog which lifted quickly and left me feeling remarkably motivated and anxiety free. Of course its far too early to come to any conclusions yet, but so far memantine has been a totally different experience this time around. I'm very impressed and glad I decided to revisit this substance! I will try to stay at 30MG/day for some time now but am ready to drop down to a more reasonable dose and titrate more gradually if any negatives return.


Thats very interesting, hopefully the positive effects will continue while the negatives keep dimishing. Keep us updated mate.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

Will do crazyMed, today I decided to begin a 15mg 2X per day regimen instead of a single dose late in the day. A few hours after the first 15MG I am experiencing some brain fog, however it is remarkably minimal considering my rapid titration and my inconsistent dosing. Besides the slight brain fog it is great right now, very anxiolytic and I am not experiencing the sedation and feelings of exhaustion that my first experiences with memantine produced. Very interesting, it feels like a completely different substance at a higher dose. Question for you guys on higher doses of memantine: how are you taking it throughout the day...once, twice or more per day and if multiple doses how far apart? Is there any reason to not take it once per day with its very long half life?

Thanks!


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

*memantine*

Well memantine doesn't work so well for me long term it seems. Some of the side effects got worse and worse. So discontinued it.

I advise caution with memantine IMO.

The second drug I've ever had a bad reaction to. Unfortunately it was really bad all of a sudden.

Use memantine with caution. Its not a completely harmless substance in my experience.

*TWO THUMBS DOWN FOR MEMANTINE!*


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Did you lower the dose untill the side effects disappeared?

It takes 10 days for blood levels to stabilise, so seems you just couldnt tolerate it over certain bloodlevels.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

Vilazodone,

I'm curious as to what bad side effects you experienced with Memantine, and what dose you ultimately settled on (and for how long) before calling it quits? Memantine is a strange substance indeed, and my second experience with it continues to be completely different than the first with remarkably different results depending on the dosage and time of day taken. 

I am currently on 25mg/day and am trying a new dosing schedule of 10mg in the morning and 15mg at night. Today is only my 7th day back on memantine and although the brain fog is no doubt present it honestly doesn't seem to be any more severe than when I was titrating very slowly at 5mg/week which makes me wonder what the point of prolonging the adjustment to an effective dose really is? Is titrating slowly only recommended to minimize initial discomfort, or is there more to it? 

I am a bit confused about my reaction to memantine thus far. The more unpleasant effects of memantine continue to be only noticeable to me from about 1.5 hours after consuming to +6 hours or so. During this time I feel rather slow and impaired cognitively with a strange sense of disconnect from reality...however I have noticed that despite this I somehow seem to have a more immediate access to a much more sophisticated vocabulary than I normally would in conversation which comes as quite a surprise given my feeling of being very much out of it. The negative effects always seem to disappear after 6 hours or so (right now these would be brain fog, sedation, and an interesting yet anxious "disconnected" feeling.) For this reason I wonder if there is any reason why I can't take it just once a day in the evening since all of the negative effects (which never seemed to completely disappear for me the first time around) are only apparent for a matter of hours after dosing?


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

> TWO THUMBS DOWN FOR MEMANTINE!


Right, it does build up slowly with each dose, no matter how big or little each one... so if that's what ya felt after some time, then that's that. Sorry to hear, man!

Crayzy, I recently got adderall XR 30mg script with 10-20mg memantine at the moment, and the amph's hitting me like a train with every new day... which is great because, despite knowing that most of my issues neatly lined up with "dopamine" all along, I still never thought it was possible for me to get such a huge therapeutic benefit from it. Too early to say for sure, especially considering side-effects, etc. but still good news. "Un-elegant" and broad though it is, it does supply the needed fuel so I can really work with it from there - and I'm quite impressed so far (hopefully it never poops out :/) cuz that seems to be noticeably improving all motivation/energy/socializing/anxiety complaints one by one for me...

I am a bit leery of possible endocrine inhibition with this stuff, though... ya know; I recall seeing that it's somewhat inhibitory there with all that DA floating around in excess.. like immunosuppression etc.

Wanted to run this^ past ya in case you had some thoughts, cuz I know you've had a multitude of experience with the stuff... 

Any other thoughts are also welcomed since I'm really new to amph. (Like do you ever take anything to help you get more restful sleep while on it?)


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

Ok why is it that my posts occasionally randomly require moderator approval and there is at least a day's delay before it appears while other times my message is posted and viewable instantly? I posted a detailed update on my memantine experience this afternoon but this reply won't show up until it receives "approval" and will appear as if I posted at the same time I submitted it...what gives!?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Been on DXM and NAC the last few days, 60mg of DXM 3 times a day combined with 3600mg of NAC a day, this is all just temporary untill ive got the other ****, and all easy to get.
Also taking GBL when im home, GBL pretty much lacks any anxiolytic for me however combined with DXM there was a signficant reduction in social anxiety, probably around 30% less sa, also when i'm not on GBL the combo seems to work pretty well for anhedonia, was enjoying listening music on my cellphone when going to work. An right now enjoy internetting alot more then usual, normally without G or anything else that works for anhedonia its damn boring.

Altough i wonder how much reversal of cafeine tolerance may contribute to the anti anhedonic effect, i remember energy drinks working really great lol, but they stopped working years ago.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

zodiac55 said:


> Right, it does build up slowly with each dose, no matter how big or little each one... so if that's what ya felt after some time, then that's that. Sorry to hear, man!
> 
> Crayzy, I recently got adderall XR 30mg script with 10-20mg memantine at the moment, and the amph's hitting me like a train with every new day... which is great because, despite knowing that most of my issues neatly lined up with "dopamine" all along, I still never thought it was possible for me to get such a huge therapeutic benefit from it. Too early to say for sure, especially considering side-effects, etc. but still good news. "Un-elegant" and broad though it is, it does supply the needed fuel so I can really work with it from there - and I'm quite impressed so far (hopefully it never poops out :/) cuz that seems to be noticeably improving all motivation/energy/socializing/anxiety complaints one by one for me...
> 
> ...


I wouldnt say thats that, i dont know the details but it worked initially for vilazodone, untill blood levels build up, so stopping it would be a very bad idea and lowering the dose would be apropiate but i dont know the details about what happened to him, hopefully he can update us soon.

Hmm, not sure, id just say dont force yourself and be overly active and youd be fine, amphetamine completely demotivates me so with anything else then sleep deprivation i wouldnt know how the extra subjective energy can be bad.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

KW5789 said:


> Ok why is it that my posts occasionally randomly require moderator approval and there is at least a day's delay before it appears while other times my message is posted and viewable instantly? I posted a detailed update on my memantine experience this afternoon but this reply won't show up until it receives "approval" and will appear as if I posted at the same time I submitted it...what gives!?


Hmm im not sure man.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

Memantine is getting better and better for me, today the brain fog was completely gone along with all other negatives I had noticed before and after a week long break from adderall/dex it was so much more effective for me today. Starting today I am going to try to stabilize at 30mg/day, I was on 25mg for the last few days when things began to get a little too weird. It continues to feel completely different than my first trial...for the first time ever I experienced a somewhat stimulating and motivating effect (noticed this yesterday and today even before consuming any amphetamines.) I wonder why it is so different this time around, the only thing added to my med regimen is sertraline (50mg/day) and despite titrating very rapidly (5mg day 1 3 days on 10 mg then straight to 25-30mg/day up until now) side effects are greatly reduced, if not completely gone. I'm really glad I found this thread and decided to re visit memantine right now!


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

> Vilazodone,
> 
> I'm curious as to what bad side effects you experienced with Memantine, and what dose you ultimately settled on (and for how long) before calling it quits? Memantine is a strange substance indeed, and my second experience with it continues to be completely different than the first with remarkably different results depending on the dosage and time of day taken.
> 
> ...


Bump... this must be what KW was talking about with the "approval" thing-- this one randomly just appeared up there, haha...

If you already know what your effective dosage is, and you've actually stayed there for a while previously, then yeah, how you ramp up is up to you. From what I've gathered, the slow-adjustment is mostly if you don't yet know how your body will react to it.. everyone is so different that something like that is simply a necessity. Especially because its concentration in your body WILL increase over time taking it day/night (even if you're on a low dose -- this is why even 5mg adjustments can cause issues, because the total adds up each day).

Alas, bear in mind that... NMDA antagonists are NMDA antagonists ;P and from personal experience alone, I will be quick to point out that some of the negative effects inherent to their method of action are plain and simply very likely never to go away.

There is evidence to support that SOME of memantine's negatives (like the anti-cholinergic action, and brain fog in a certain sense) develop "tolerance" quickly (and therefore, subside), but as far as memantine's long-term intended action: *NMDA antagonism* -- this, too, is going to be responsible for X amount of side-effects -- and these may or may not go away! What's for sure is that they are always liable to become much more intense as time goes on, since memantine's concentration in your body will only build up.

Now, there are those golden positives, like the anxiety-reduction (for some), improved memory recall or heightened vocabulary connections... but these benefits are achieved with relatively low steady levels of the medicine in your body -- through gentle NMDA antagonism, not inhitibing the **** out of it. So, it'd be nice if you could just take higher doses of memantine and get EVEN better memory hahah, but yeh, that's just not how it works. ;}

Lastly, dosing at night-time-only doesn't sound like too bad of an idea in your sense, but I really don't know... it might hamper the body's adaptation to it, or cause blood concentration levels to fluctuate too unsteadily. I think crayzy's got more of the theory knowhow to be able to answer why this might be good or bad, but I'd say until you hear otherwise, stick @ 2x-daily for now -- maybe just lower the dosages slightly until you fully adapt. Again keeping in mind that lower dosages are the most ideal for therapeutic benefits.

Just my 0.02


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ive received my acamprosate today, added it to my DXM, NAC and GBL combo, acamprosate, dxm and nac should have anti addictive property's too so il try them out too.

This is mostly a temporary stack (will replace DXM with memantine and NAC with oxcarbazepine and add in wellbutrin in the future, but im gonna save enough money first so i have enough supply so i dont run out too fast to give thema a proper trial.

Also received my dex today and some valium, well trial this for a while and see how it works out.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Ive received my acamprosate today, added it to my DXM, NAC and GBL combo, acamprosate, dxm and nac should have anti addictive property's too so il try them out too.
> 
> This is mostly a temporary stack (will replace DXM with memantine and NAC with oxcarbazepine and add in wellbutrin in the future, but im gonna save enough money first so i have enough supply so i dont run out too fast to give thema a proper trial.
> 
> Also received my dex today and some valium, well trial this for a while and see how it works out.


sounds like a safe stack crazymed im impressed. that looks really nootropic and good. maybe through in some curcumin here and there before bed.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes i definatly want to add curcumin soon.


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## Thorsten (Apr 6, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Yes i definatly want to add curcumin soon.


hello dude how's things? i thought you took curcumin already?

i think it's a great supp for health but I find it to anti-libido for my sexual wellbeing


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Thorsten said:


> hello dude how's things? i thought you took curcumin already?
> 
> i think it's a great supp for health but I find it to anti-libido for my sexual wellbeing


I'm good, just trying to control my amp addiction lol, had good results with wellbutrin and oxcarbazepine but ran out till ive got a good source again, currently trying DXM, acamprosate and nac wich initially seemed to cause good effects too.


> Hmm ive never experienced this kind of feeling satisfied before, there's amp in my system, i dont want anymore as its there allready, im not even interested in taking more, even if it wouldnt matter for now, interesting, normally i feel a ocd urge to take more.
> 
> Hopefully effects will continue long term.


Still using g without problems tough, odd how one drug is fine for one person, while a complete disaster for others.

I ran out of curcumin a while ago.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

*ATTENTION KW5789!*

Please be a bit more careful with memantine than I was!

I will be posting why memantine is not quite so clean... If you are vulnerable as I turned out to be then memantine will quickly turn your life into a nightmare. I'm not joking here. I will be posting more information relevant to this concern.

Until then, remain cautious. If things start turning strange realize it is likely that memantine isn't agreeing with you and you should probably seek out a friend you trust while tapering off / getting off memantine. Avoid stressful situations or driving as much as possible. Be alarmed if you feel ANY paranoia at all, this could be a side effect of memantine induced psychosis getting worse.

I consider myself lucky as no one was hurt or threatened. But it was eye-opening to who in my life were ninny cowards and who in my life were compassionate and brave people - ie true friends. It is simply amazing.

This is only my 2 cents. In case anyone is concerned I am quite alright now, back to the condition I was before taking memantine. I have to say the episode I (almost too late) caught myself in was educational as well. I don't think I've ever learned so much about life in such a short duration as I did while surviving madness.

Writing this only out of concern, for those who already do well on memantine please don't be alarmed as you are likely not susceptible to this unfortunate side effect but should still be aware of its possibility.

[THIS IS MY WARNING AND CONTRIBUTION TO MEMANTINE. FOR ALL THOSE THAT WANT TO CRAP ON MEDICATIONS PLEASE KNOW THAT ANY MEDICATION (EVEN CERTAIN FOODS) CAN PROVE HARMFUL FOR SOME, WHILE EXTREMELY BENEFICIAL FOR OTHERS. SO PLEASE KEEP YOUR NARROW MINDED OPINIONS TO YOURSELF.]


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Wow, this was a rough experience man, thx for posting this here, if memantine can do this in some individuals some extra caution can be a good idea.



> FOR ALL THOSE THAT WANT TO **** ON MEDICATIONS PLEASE KNOW THAT ANY MEDICATION (EVEN CERTAIN FOODS) CAN PROVE HARMFUL FOR SOME, WHILE EXTREMELY BENEFICIAL FOR OTHERS.


This is true, all study's point to memantine as being well tolerated, but your case shows that is no evidence that nothing absolutely can happen.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

:yesTrue. In all fairness there has been other medications I've had adverse reactions to: ie, mainly the selegiline patch Emsam (even though oral selegiline had ZERO adverse effect, something about the deprenyl bypassing the first pass liver metabolism and being able to hit the brain en-masse really drove me nutso). 

Poison to some medicine to others. Why do agencies like FDA expect one size fits all to work I'll never understand. People have varied physiology and psychology from one another. Please excuse my F'd up grammar, I've just been through a life-changing ordeal.:yes


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Thorsten said:


> hello dude how's things? i thought you took curcumin already?
> 
> i think it's a great supp for health but I find it to anti-libido for my sexual wellbeing


Agreed ^- what's up with that... it's like it's too "anti-DA-drive"-feeling or something. 

Vila, wow that is some ****... those were high doses, and they definitely build up over time. Like I said, most benefits found from NMDA antagonism alone (if any!) will come only from low dosages that build up to low steady-concentration, and if you do feel some of these, you won't strengthen them by increasing memantine dosage (works kinda like an inverted U curve with ideal concentration), as it is not an anti-anxiety med (!!) nor was it ever touted to be. As many anecdotal reports show (from DXM or otherwise), when NMDA is inhibited too much, you really run the risk of some crazy stuff happening. Everyone's different, but the fact that it's generally not a good idea remains the same. Glad you're alright bro. :\


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Oddly, even though the 'crazy stuff' was scary and dangerous.... It was one of the most valuable experiences I think in my life. 

-X'I think'X- I need to change my life. There are multiple things I need to change that came to attention because of this experience walking along the edge of a razor and trying not to fall off on either side. I need to write down what I went through emotionally and then write down the conclusions I came to while under the effect. Then I need to change my life and behavior accordingly. I need to do this ASAP before I forget what it was like and it becomes a distant memory. 

Major Issues:
*Ethics of incoming G-AI (TDGammon>Rybka>RobboLito>Watson>?) and artificial realities (all you ppl playing WoW and talking way too much via twitter, chatrooms, etc). 

*Normalcy bias
*Ethics of human experimentation and (lack of) consent.
*Evil. Zimbardo.
*Ethics of losing trust and openness. 
*True compassion versus liberalism. Homelessness.

The consequences of these actions.

*Scarcity of resources.
*Perpetual hell on earth as a result of national powers fighting over scarce resources, and what role such powers play in manipulating '3rd world' nations and people.
*Theocracy and religious incompatibilities (think of an aquarium as an analogy, certain fish just don't mix with others and likely never will no matter how much you want it so)
*The natural order. The role that biology and animals play, versus the 'inorganic'. The possibility of existence of souls and true spirituality.
*Violations of human rights, consistitutional rights and human autonomy. LOSS OF PRIVACY (as if it ever truly existed).
*Nepotistic tribal states.
*People enslaving other population without even the realization of it occurring. 
*Nonviolent protest and self-sacrifice. TS.
*The list practically goes on and on.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

*The hypocrisy of nepotistic tribes.
*Hypocrisy
*Useful idiots.
*The backstabbing of US patriots - ie THOSE WHO SAVED YOUR *** DURING WW2. How were they repaid? (By your group expressing nepotism and plundering a population of naive sheeple. BM-etc, we are not as stupid as you think.)
*WHO gets power and control over the experiment and can they really be trusted? WHO DO YOU PLEASE?!? Speaking to you Z.
*Slandering an entire population and expecting no retaliation. Round and round your body goes. Repeating this suicidal madness on YOUR WATCH.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

These are very out-reaching issues... (agree with ya on the AI thing though -__- bleh.. ``Terminator`` becoming reality heh), however, how do all of these pertain..? You mentioned walking on a razor and changing YOUR life... but the below examples don't really clarify. Maybe I should ask no more -- perhaps the details are best left for PM and otherwise.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

There's no harm to also think about it from the Terminator's point of view. There's got to be a reason why Arnold Schwarzenegger got so pissed off and began terminating us primates.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

> Bump... this must be what KW was talking about with the "approval" thing-- this one randomly just appeared up there, haha...
> 
> If you already know what your effective dosage is, and you've actually stayed there for a while previously, then yeah, how you ramp up is up to you. From what I've gathered, the slow-adjustment is mostly if you don't yet know how your body will react to it.. everyone is so different that something like that is simply a necessity. Especially because its concentration in your body WILL increase over time taking it day/night (even if you're on a low dose -- this is why even 5mg adjustments can cause issues, because the total adds up each day).
> 
> ...


Yes, this is exactly what I was referring to...I go to post a reply and instead of showing up instantly there is often a day long delay but to make matters worse it gets thrown into the same space in the discussion as it would have if the post had showed up instantly meaning that by the time many of my replies show up the discussion is already onto the next page and therefore my post is missed by most :/

Anyway thanks for addressing my questions! This time around the brain fog and overall feeling of being "off" upon increasing dosages has been clearing up much more rapidly than before and I am able to realize some significant benefits from the memantine alone besides just tolerance control/prevention. Things are continuing to go well, I bumped up to 30mg yesterday which did result in some brain fog initially but that already seems to be clearing up nicely. I intend to stay at 30MG for some time now which seems like a reasonable daily intake for tolerance as well as being beneficial in other areas (for instance it seems to be great for controlling my OCD tendencies as well as working well with my low dose of sertraline for greatly improved motivation, sense of well being overall making it so much easier for me to take days off of my adderall/dex.) Right now I am trying a dosing schedule of 10mg in the morning and 20mg in the evening.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

> *ATTENTION KW5789!*
> 
> Please be a bit more careful with memantine than I was!
> 
> ...


I appreciate your words of caution with memantine and although I seem to be responding well to it now I will definitely keep this post in mind as I continue my trial. I'm not too concerned about having a severe reaction to it given that I was on memantine for a number of months before this latest trial at dosages as high as 25mg/day without any severe reactions, my decision to quit the first time was because I just didn't feel like I was getting any benefit from it while possibly experiences some negatives (which at the moment are not present, like I've said time and time again its working like a totally different substance for me this time around.)

I'm looking forward to hearing what adverse reactions you encountered with memantine and hopefully this will give me an idea of what I should look out for as I continue with this medication.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

KW5789 said:


> I appreciate your words of caution with memantine and although I seem to be responding well to it now I will definitely keep this post in mind as I continue my trial. I'm not too concerned about having a severe reaction to it given that I was on memantine for a number of months before this latest trial at dosages as high as 25mg/day without any severe reactions, my decision to quit the first time was because I just didn't feel like I was getting any benefit from it while possibly experiences some negatives (which at the moment are not present, like I've said time and time again its working like a totally different substance for me this time around.)
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing what adverse reactions you encountered with memantine and hopefully this will give me an idea of what I should look out for as I continue with this medication.


Yeh. Good outlook. Keep us posted.


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## KW5789 (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks Zodiac, I submitted a reply to your earlier post as well however that one got the "moderator approval" treatment so another one of my posts will likely randomly appear a page or two back within the next day or so haha. Hopefully this one makes it through immediately instead of adding to the confusion :/


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

I was responding well to memantine too, then suddenly was experiencing a psychotic breakdown out of the blue. So in other words, it went from 'hey, this crap is really making me feel better' to 'holy Fk, agents are stalking me'.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

"Yes i definatly want to add curcumin soon."

I'm baffled. Thought you said you've been on it??


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Temporary psychotic meltdowns could possibly be valuable if it weren't for the repercussions.

*Inducing psychosis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18000814
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1681331
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20667296
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889961

Other:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16380435
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17728110
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v34/n5/full/npp2008200a.html
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/29/9/2774.long
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2525988/?tool=pubmed


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Part of what I think made memantine turn on me / *my mistake was* *taking it at night before sleep*. Perhaps it interferes will sleep which may lead to problems in those vulnerable. It is too bad as memantine had some very positive effects for me until it started to disagree with me.

I did a small test to probe if this theory may have any truth. I took 5mg in the morning a day ago and had zero problems. I took 5mg last night and noticed some mild paranoia when I woke up this morning. I have no idea if there is truth to this theory or not. It is most likely in my head.

If I were to advise someone insistent on taking memantine I would suggest only dosing in the morning or before noon and ramping dose up very slow.

Good luck to those  in your search for mental healing.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vilazodone said:


> "Yes i definatly want to add curcumin soon."
> 
> I'm baffled. Thought you said you've been on it??


Me? I ran out, allways order **** to late.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

Vilazodone said:


> Part of what I think made memantine turn on me / *my mistake was* *taking it at night before sleep*. Perhaps it interferes will sleep which may lead to problems in those vulnerable. It is too bad as memantine had some very positive effects for me until it started to disagree with me.
> 
> I did a small test to probe if this theory may have any truth. I took 5mg in the morning a day ago and had zero problems. I took 5mg last night and noticed some mild paranoia when I woke up this morning. I have no idea if there is truth to this theory or not. It is most likely in my head.
> 
> ...


Given how its concentration builds up over time, I also think there's nothing wrong with morning-only dosing. Personally, I don't ever take it at night if I'm taking it somewhat regularly, like for amph tolerance. I hate its effects on sleep for me.

Unfortunately, Vila, you are correct that for your personal scenario it's probably not as simple as just lowering dose and taking it less frequently, so I'd steer clear of it completely as monotherapy, unless one day you're on a med that benefits from NMDA antagonism cuz of tolerance-prevention (in which case, even taking a very low dose every other day or just a few times a week will yield enough benefit!). This is the case for *many* people, so don't feel like you're any odd case or something... this is among the many reasons why NMDA antagonists aren't used 'on their own' for SA and stuff like that.


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## zodiac55 (Mar 12, 2010)

KW5789 said:


> Thanks Zodiac, I submitted a reply to your earlier post as well however that one got the "moderator approval" treatment so another one of my posts will likely randomly appear a page or two back within the next day or so haha. Hopefully this one makes it through immediately instead of adding to the confusion :/


If not, just feel free to quote or repost (or PM and I will)..  I'm not great at noticing earlier posts - not really a huge 'forum lurker' hehe.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

This thread really slowed down since I had my incident. I wish that weren't so. How are you people coming along. Crayzy? What you up to man?


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

did Crayzy kick the bucket or something? Or did he finally find his miracle cure so doesn't need to check in here anymore?


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Ding dong crayzy's dead..


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

Crayzymed drops pants in protest as police water-cannon Belgium crowds


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Hahahaha just waiting for money to pick up more meds and try new stuff.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

While the memantine turned out to 'not be for me', the next thing I'm giving a trial is the Longvida curcumin. Frankly I don't think it will do too much as curcumin 95 never did much for me, but I got my fingers crossed. I know at the very least at least curcumin won't F me up if I react poorly. 

Memantine was going very well until I hit the cataclysmic road bump. But in terms of an eye-opening experience I must say it had some positive value that went along with the negative.. I wish I could get back in touch with that world at whim. It really exposes your deepest subconscious fears at face value. Psychosis is remarkable to say the least, but not recommended for your health  .


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Vilazodone said:


> Crayzymed drops pants in protest as police water-cannon Belgium crowds


Lol, I could so see crayzy doing that! 'Gimme my Dexedrine you totalitarian government *******s'!!


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

jim_morrison said:


> Lol, I could so see crayzy doing that! 'Gimme my Dexedrine you totalitarian government *******s'!!


Lucky you didn't get a water cannon up the a s s.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I cant wait till i can wellbutrin, oxcarbazepine and some stims.
Currently taking AMT, GBL, DXM and acamprosate.


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## Vilazodone (Mar 22, 2010)

jim_morrison said:


> Lol, I could so see crayzy doing that! 'Gimme my Dexedrine you totalitarian government *******s'!!





VanDamMan said:


> Lucky you didn't get a water cannon up the a s s.


:teeth


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I cant wait till i can wellbutrin, oxcarbazepine and some stims.
> Currently taking AMT, GBL, DXM and acamprosate.


which no sane person but you would take Wes. please god dont recommend combos like that to anyone.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

bben said:


> which no sane person but you would take Wes. please god dont recommend combos like that to anyone.


I disagree. As long as they aren't abused and you don't build a tolerance to them then they are very effective.

aMT and GBL are among best anxiolytics I've ever tried.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

ugh1979 said:


> I disagree. As long as they aren't abused and you don't build a tolerance to them then they are very effective.
> 
> aMT and GBL are among best anxiolytics I've ever tried.


You will build a tolerance, no matter what precautions you take after a period of time. 
You probably will abuse those if taken long enough...
AMT is quite neurotoxic...
DXM daily is a ****ing terrible idea... and likely neurotoxic.
Acamprosate is not a good med at all in general.

The combo is dangerous as ****, as dxm has ssri properties and AMT is a serotonin releaser. I wont even start on what GBL adds in that combination besides saying GHB is EXTREMELY addicting physically.

God, another Crazy med groupie.

Wes your gonna get someone killed.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

bben said:


> You will build a tolerance, no matter what precautions you take after a period of time.


That depends on how often you use them.



> You probably will abuse those if taken long enough...


Well that's the risk, but it depends on how controlled you are. The point is that it can be done.



> AMT is quite neurotoxic...


In high doses maybe. (Although even that is still not certain). Nothing to worry about in low doses though from the evidence I've seen and personally experienced.

For the record aMT was what turned my life around for the better after years of failed medications. I highly recommend it, but it's not for everyone.



> DXM daily is a ****ing terrible idea... and likely neurotoxic.


IYO. Do you say the same about ketamine/MXE?



> Acamprosate is not a good med at all in general.


OK I can't comment on that one as I know little about it.



> The combo is dangerous as ****, as dxm has ssri properties and AMT is a serotonin releaser.


:roll Not an issue in small doses. Obviously taking large amounts of both may cause problems in some people but nobody is recommending to do that.



> I wont even start on what GBL adds in that combination besides saying GHB is EXTREMELY addicting physically.


So are benzos. Should nobody taken them either? As with many drugs, you need to take only take them in doses and frequencies so as not to get addicted. It can be done. I manage it easily enough.



> God, another Crazy med groupie.


:no

So just because I agree with some of what CrazyMed says and disagree with you i'm a CrazyMed groupie? :roll I can assure you i've taken the above many times long long before I ever heard Wes mention them.



> Wes your gonna get someone killed.


While these are very experimental drugs and there is risk, they could also be a life saver if nothing else is effective. I know that was my case.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

ugh1979 said:


> That depends on how often you use them.
> 
> Well that's the risk, but it depends on how controlled you are. The point is that it can be done.
> 
> ...


Yes, and im glad it worked for you. However, you seem like you know more than your average joe about drugs and most people don't even have a basic grasp on pharmacology.

This combo might apply to a select few treatment resistant highly knowledgeable individuals. Even then its a ****ty regiment as those medications build tolerance quick and are far from nootropic. \

Def not something that should be recommended to anyone on a public forum.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

bben said:


> This combo might apply to a select few treatment resistant highly knowledgeable individuals. Even then its a ****ty regiment as those medications build tolerance quick and are far from nootropic. \


So do benzos. And as I've said, it's a regime that needs to not be abused, so as to avoid tolerance. I've never built a tolerance to any of them and use/used them for years. I just made sure to only take them 2 or at the very most and rarely 3 days a week.

I massively disagree about you saying they are far from nootropic. aMT is the most potent nootropic I've ever had (and i've experienced many). I bleed creativity, focus and drive when I am on aMT.



> Def not something that should be recommended to anyone on a public forum.


I don't think he actually recommended them. He just said that's what he was taking. I wouldn't say they are any more dangerous than benzos.

If nobody had every mentioned these drugs on a forum anywhere in the past I may have never have known about them and still have a ****ty life. I've extremely glad that people do talk about them on forums.

I can understand your concern that reckless people might abuse them, but valid and useful knowledge shouldn't be repressed for the sake of idiots at the expense of others who it could help.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

ugh1979 said:


> *So do benzos*. And as I've said, it's a regime that needs to not be abused, so as to avoid tolerance. I've never built a tolerance to any of them and use/used them for years. I just made sure to only take them 2 or at the very most and rarely 3 days a week.
> 
> Which is why benzos suck in general, besides the fact they make you stupid. You cannot apply your own personal experience to everyone, so just because you didn't build tolerance does not mean ****.
> 
> ...


SA forums is not the place for advanced users. There are perhaps 5 users on here that could handle a combo like that and really understand the risks.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

bben said:


> SA forums is not the place for advanced users. There are perhaps 5 users on here that could handle a combo like that and really understand the risks.


I think you are being rather presumptuous and cynical that people will read it and then go out and take them in huge amounts with no regard for the risk.

The bottom line for me is that information on effective medications that can be taken safety if not abused should not be suppressed under any circumstances.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

ugh1979 said:


> I think you are being rather presumptuous and cynical that people will read it and then go out and take them in huge amounts with no regard for the risk.
> 
> The bottom line for me is that information on effective medications that can be taken safety if not abused should not be suppressed under any circumstances.


Your putting words in my mouth and in doing so you are the one being presumptuous. Not sure how watching out for peoples well being is cynical either??? I don't think they would go out and take it in huge amounts or with no regard for the risk on purpose. Im sure they would THINK they were taking proper amounts and THINK they were taking precautions, while in fact doing it all wrong and perhaps DIEING.

The fact is that most people don't know how to properly dose four psychoactive substances in combination. OF those 4, several interact and all have major actions on the nervous system. This is not a game where you can mess up and start over, lives are at stake....

Not all of those medications are safe and they are certainly not safe in combination. So no safe and effective information is being suppressed here.

Stop this pathetic attempt to persuade anyone that combining GBL,DXM,aMT, and acamprosate together on your own with no supervision is a good idea.

YOU ARE WRONG ! :roll

and not only that, you endorsing the combination is putting people at risk and making them think it is safe!

Again im all for experimental combinations in treatment resistant cases, but the majority of crazy meds combinations are just that, crazy.....


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> You will build a tolerance, no matter what precautions you take after a period of time.
> You probably will abuse those if taken long enough...
> AMT is quite neurotoxic...
> DXM daily is a ****ing terrible idea... and likely neurotoxic.
> ...


You are completely wrong, GBL is one of the least physically addicting meds as you can use it daily without physical addiction, when using it 24/7 it is yes.

Actually i like AMT because i cant really abuse it, sometimes a psychedelic experience yet, but you cant go past a certain dose as then it gets spacy and rather unpleasant, as confirmed wich several people.

Hyperthermia is essential MDMA's neurotoxiticy, this is likely the same with AMT, it may however have a negative effect on BDNF like amphetamine.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> Again im all for experimental combinations in treatment resistant cases, but the majority of crazy meds combinations are just that, crazy.....


DXM + AMT is generally not recommend, there's nothing crazy if it is replaced with memantine, as for acamprosate its not the first time you say meds are rubbish without even trying them.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Only treatment resistance ppl would take such combo's, and for them it can be the only option besides suffering their whole life of neurological problems, if you think ppl would all jump on those combination when they arent treatment resistant you have no clue about whats going on, it would be rather irresponsible to not report back on such combinations as for some ppl those can be life saving options.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Only treatment resistance ppl would take such combo's, and for them it can be the only option besides suffering their whole life of neurological problems, if you think ppl would all jump on those combination when they arent treatment resistant you have no clue about whats going on, it would be rather irresponsible to not report back on such combinations as for some ppl those can be life saving options.


Exactly.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

But meh, lets get supervision so everyone can get tardive dyskinesie after getting antipsychotics, when my mum was crying because she couldnt talk on the phone atleast she didnt think of her other problems anymore as all focus was on her parkinson like symptons.

Pdocs more responsible then me? HAHA


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> You are completely wrong, GBL is one of the least physically addicting meds as you can use it daily without physical addiction, when using it 24/7 it is yes.
> 
> Actually i like AMT because i cant really abuse it, sometimes a psychedelic experience yet, but you cant go past a certain dose as then it gets spacy and rather unpleasant, as confirmed wich several people.
> 
> Hyperthermia is essential MDMA's neurotoxiticy, this is likely the same with AMT, it may however have a negative effect on BDNF like amphetamine.


No, im not WES thats bull**** and you know it. GBL is not the least physically addicting medication or even close to it. Just because you personally can avoid dependence does not mean ****... GBL is know for its dependence and horrible WD's. And not it does not take 24/7 use in most people.

aMT could easily cause hyperthermia in people and thats BS that it needs hyperthermia to be toxic anyway. Serotonin releasers cause neurotoxicity in several ways...

Wes im disappointed...


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Only treatment resistance ppl would take such combo's, and for them it can be the only option besides suffering their whole life of neurological problems, if you think ppl would all jump on those combination when they arent treatment resistant you have no clue about whats going on, it would be rather irresponsible to not report back on such combinations as for some ppl those can be life saving options.


Not really, none you listed are good long term at all except maybe acamprosate.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> No, im not WES thats bull**** and you know it. GBL is not the least physically addicting medication or even close to it. Just because you personally can avoid dependence does not mean ****... GBL is know for its dependence and horrible WD's. And not it does not take 24/7 use in most people.
> 
> aMT could easily cause hyperthermia in people and thats BS that it needs hyperthermia to be toxic anyway. Serotonin releasers cause neurotoxicity in several ways...
> 
> Wes im disappointed...


I'm actually disappointed in you mate, i agree GBL causes horrible withdrawals (far less worse then benzo's and over after 2 weeks) however its a fact you need to dose it 24/7 to induce sleep.
You did recommend buprenorphine wich also causes dependency and wich cant be avoided by taking less doses during the day because of its halflife so i'm not sure what your going on about.

Abolish hyperthermia and you abolish neurotoxiticy, altough serotonine releasers itself cause simular neurotoxic damage to SSRI's however that isnt te same damage as MDMA wich can be far worse in rodent myself (wich some observed damage in the thalamus in humans).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> Not really, none you listed are good long term at all except maybe acamprosate.


You do realise i allways recommend the addition of curcumin and memantine for neuroprotection and tolerance right? Curcumin should be highly neuroprotective for MDMA induced damage due to it inducing protective pathways, rather then just having antioxidant effects.

Im sad to see you want those treatment not talked about and rather have people live in misery their whole life just because they are highly treatment resistant.


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## Medline (Sep 23, 2008)

Most questions on the SAS medication forum are about standard treatments and these are answered pretty fast and IMHO very often correctly.

Then there are people suffering since years from treatment-resistant SAD / anhedonia / anergic depression and in these cases we do recommend MAOIs or stimulants like Adderall. The last drug is definitly not listed in the psychiatrist's books for the treatment of SAD. But it works. To reduce tolerance and for other reasons memantine is a good choice in our opinoin - but also not standard. Experience from users on this and on other boards shows that it helps.

Very seldom (IMHO in general knowledgable) persons here try e.g. research drugs, but keep in mind that the most commonly abused drug by people with SAD is also the most dangerous even before heroin, crack and meth recent research shows: alcohol -> http://pdfcast.org/pdf/drug-harms-in-the-uk-a-multicriteria-decision-analysis


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I'm actually disappointed in you mate, i agree GBL causes horrible withdrawals (far less worse then benzo's and over after 2 weeks) however its a fact you need to dose it 24/7 to induce sleep.
> You did recommend buprenorphine wich also causes dependency and wich cant be avoided by taking less doses during the day because of its halflife so i'm not sure what your going on about.
> 
> Abolish hyperthermia and you abolish neurotoxiticy, altough serotonine releasers itself cause simular neurotoxic damage to SSRI's however that isnt te same damage as MDMA wich can be far worse in rodent myself (wich some observed damage in the thalamus in humans).


GBL withdrawls dont compare to opiate withdrawls at all dude. WD from sub is easy as **** ive done it, unless you dont taper at all.

Serotonin releasers can easily induce hyperthermia, then what???

aMT probably causes damage like fenfluramine more than like mdma, either way its prob toxic as ****.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> hahaha, me being conservative with drugs. I am not even close to being conservative. I just don't believe in most of the combinations that Wes himself uses, which he has regularly admitted to me are likely neurotoxic. (Dont deny it Wes), and he says he doesnt care.


Wow, i actually posted a thread a while ago on bluelight to stop ppl from being dilusional that g is not neurotoxic on bluelight, check this:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=477588&highlight=GHB

I admit i first tought it was a flawed study because everyone was under the assumption but then i found more study's showing evidenc eit was neurotoxic and made those known on bluelight.

And now your saying "dont deny it wes" implicating i want to hide neurotoxicy issues with several compounds.

Yeah i dont care, yet i wanted to warn ppl on bluelight, but its clear you just want to be offensive to me.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Wow, i actually posted a thread a while ago on bluelight to stop ppl from being dilusional that g is not neurotoxic on bluelight, check this:
> 
> http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=477588&highlight=GHB
> 
> ...


No Wes, its just that you regularly tell me you dont care if a substance is toxic. When people say that i usually would not recommend copying their regiment.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> No Wes, its just that you regularly tell me you dont care if a substance is toxic. When people say that i usually would not recommend copying their regiment.


Which means i dont caution ppl and tell them how to take protective measures? I am in contact with everyone here that was interested in taking AMT and have recommend them protective substances for both that and GBL.

You didnt start posting things in a discussing manner but started stating claims while being pretty offensive too, but meh i'm still up for discussion if you can post in a normal manner.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

Medline said:


> Most questions on the SAS medication forum are about standard treatments and these are answered pretty fast and IMHO very often correctly.
> 
> Then there are people suffering since years from treatment-resistant SAD / anhedonia / anergic depression and in these cases we do recommend MAOIs or stimulants like Adderall. The last drug is definitly not listed in the psychiatrist's books for the treatment of SAD. But it works. To reduce tolerance and for other reasons memantine is a good choice in our opinoin - but also not standard. Experience from users on this and on other boards shows that it helps.
> 
> Very seldom (IMHO in general knowledgable) persons here try e.g. research drugs, but keep in mind that the most commonly abused drug by people with SAD is also the most dangerous even before heroin, crack and meth recent research shows: alcohol -> http://pdfcast.org/pdf/drug-harms-in-the-uk-a-multicriteria-decision-analysis


Thats all fine and dandy.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Which means i dont caution ppl and tell them how to take protective measures? I am in contact with everyone here that was interested in taking AMT and have recommend them protective substances for both that and GBL.
> 
> You didnt start posting things in a discussing manner but started stating claims while being pretty offensive too, but meh i'm still up for discussion if you can post in a normal manner.


Nah Wes the combos you personally use are usually reckless. Thats why you have overdosed so much.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> GBL withdrawls dont compare to opiate withdrawls at all dude. WD from sub is easy as **** ive done it, unless you dont taper at all.
> 
> Serotonin releasers can easily induce hyperthermia, then what???
> 
> aMT probably causes damage like fenfluramine more than like mdma, either way its prob toxic as ****.


In the research papers only gastric dyscomfort was noted and mild hyperthermia both due to excess serotonine release, after 20 years of use there were no toxicology issues reported in the russian eqeuvalent of the toxicology database and likely discontinued due to abuse reasons, getting in contact with the company that produced indopan can give clealer answers on the history of AMT, also getting all the research papers is a good step forward.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> Nah Wes the combos you personally use are usually reckless. Thats why you have overdosed so much.


Ive never overdosed on any combo, ive allways overdosed on recreational drugs. (wich i did years before i started a regime occasionally too).


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> In the research papers only gastric dyscomfort was noted and mild hyperthermia both due to excess serotonine release, after 20 years of use there were no toxicology issues reported in the russian eqeuvalent of the toxicology database and likely discontinued due to abuse reasons, getting in contact with the company that produced indopan can give clealer answers on the history of AMT, also getting all the research papers is a good step forward.


They didnt know fenfluramine, a serotonin releaser caused neurotoxicity in the brain until it had been in use for YEARS. The point is serotonin releasers cause damage that is hard to measure as its all mental and it manifests as memory loss, personality changes ect. Its hard to measure minor brain damage as a result of serotonin neuron damage or axonal pruning or whatever is actually happening. That does not mean the damage is not similar to mdma or fenphen, or methamphetamine.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I can attest for bben being a very smart and cool guy, and would like to discuss things but not in a offensive manner and posting things here wich i have said personally to you on MSN, wich disappointed me a bit in him.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

ugh1979 said:


> As I've clearly said, I don't need to do any research as i've already done it. But you clearly do.
> 
> I know all about aMT and I haven't used it because the evidence behind it was not favorable IMO. Then again I am not an mdma toxicity denier like Wes is.
> 
> ...


Heroin is valid for SA. Doesn't mean that i would recommend it for people...


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> They didnt know fenfluramine, a serotonin releaser caused neurotoxicity in the brain until it had been in use for YEARS. The point is serotonin releasers cause damage that is hard to measure as its all mental and it manifests as memory loss, personality changes ect. Its hard to measure minor brain damage as a result of serotonin neuron damage or axonal pruning or whatever is actually happening. That does not mean the damage is not similar to mdma or fenphen, or methamphetamine.


The same damage selective serotonine releasers cause has been observed with SSRI's in rodents, i will need to look that study up again tough, offcourse the dose plays a major role, so a recreational dose of a releaser will cause more damage then a SSRI.

It isnt simular as the damage of combined releasers is FAR more severe.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> The same damage selective serotonine releasers cause has been observed with SSRI's in rodents, i will need to look that study up again tough, offcourse the dose plays a major role, so a recreational dose of a releaser will cause more damage then a SSRI.
> 
> *It isnt simular as the damage of combined releasers is FAR more severe*.


Exactly, so you should be even more concerned with suggesting AMT to people.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

So bben your still my buddy and shall you post the other mechanism's mdma is neurotoxic and how this can be relevant to MDMA.

5HT2B agonism and heart valve damage can be an issue, ive spoken with this to fastandbulbous on bluelight and this where he's reply's;


> Originally Posted by MeDieViL
> Ive read that you used AMT as an antidepressant before, how long did you take it and did you get tolerant to it after a while?
> 
> It allmost abolishes my SA, its an extremely effective med, wonderfull stuff.
> Used 2.5 - 5mg per day one winter for SAD and it worked wonderfully. Not really a tolerance problem, but forget being able to use it for tripping if you use it as an antidepressant. Wish I had more of the stuff (down to my last 200mg - not enough for a winter antidepressant, but enough for a few nights of serious fun!)


**** accidently deleted the pm where he discussed the heart valve issue, he's the only trustworthy guy i know of that has 1 checked all papers and 2 checked the russian toxicology database.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> Exactly, so you should be even more concerned with suggesting AMT to people.


Not exactly, as mdma's neurotoxiticy is mediated by several mechanism, excess release of the higly reactive molecule dopamine combined with severely potentiated hyperthermia by the serotonine release (wich is far more then the 5HT release regarding methamphetamine, wich is also the reason why its far more toxic then normal amp).

It is important to know here that we are talking about therapeutic doses:
1. Dopamine release will be minimal
2. Hyperthermia will be minimal
3. The serotonine release probably causes the same damage as SSRI's as ive seen in that rodent study.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> So bben your still my buddy and shall you post the other mechanism's mdma is neurotoxic and how this can be relevant to MDMA.
> 
> 5HT2B agonism and heart valve damage can be an issue, ive spoken with this to fastandbulbous on bluelight and this where he's reply's;
> 
> **** accidently deleted the pm where he discussed the heart valve issue, he's the only trustworthy guy i know of that has 1 checked all papers and 2 checked the russian toxicology database.


Yes it has the same issues all serotonin releasers have. Heart valve issues is a problem they share. Serotonin releasers without hyperthermia can still cause depletion of serotonin and put into effect the same reaction that i believe causes mdma's issues. You are entitled to your opinion that hyperthermia is the only issues, but some papers show it as adding to the toxicity not being solely responsible. I cant sort through everything know but ill link u later on msn i u wanna see whatever.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

That is wrong its been shown that selective serotonine releasers dont cause serotonine depletion in the study's by nichols et al. Hyperthermia or not.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> but some papers show it as adding to the toxicity not being solely responsible. I cant sort through everything know but ill link u later on msn i u wanna see whatever.


I know that dude, the problem is oxidative stress.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Not exactly, as mdma's neurotoxiticy is mediated by several mechanism, excess release of the higly reactive molecule dopamine combined with severely potentiated hyperthermia by the serotonine release (wich is far more then the 5HT release regarding methamphetamine, wich is also the reason why its far more toxic then normal amp).
> 
> It is important to know here that we are talking about therapeutic doses:
> 1. Dopamine release will be minimal
> ...


Nah hyperthermia is dependent on individuals threshold and outside temperature, you cant say it will be minimal with any certainty.

Dopamine release is again individual...

The point is if someone is prone to overheating like alot of people are they could suffer brain damage.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> That is wrong its been shown that selective serotonine releasers dont cause serotonine depletion in the study's by nichols et al. Hyperthermia or not.


then what do you call what mdma does to serotonin?


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I know that dude, the problem is oxidative stress.


I know that as well. Hyperthermia just potentiates oxidative stress, dopamine on its own could still cause it sufficiently in people with poor antioxidant status.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> Nah hyperthermia is dependent on individuals threshold and outside temperature, you cant say it will be minimal with any certainty.
> 
> Dopamine release is again individual...
> 
> The point is if someone is prone to overheating like alot of people are they could suffer brain damage.


However as you said before, there has to be excessive oxidative stress too, thats alot lower too on therapeutic doses, hyperthermia is just potentiating the oxidative stress.

How much hyperthermia are we even talking about here? AMT makes me feel a bit hotter while MDMA makes the sweat flood of my forehead, major difference (but i'm not making any conclusions here as i dont know how much hyperthermia is too much).

My conclusion is that amt is a long term safe option when combined with curcumin wich is not only a antioxidant but induces a ****load of neuroprotective pathways.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> then what do you call what mdma does to serotonin?


MDMA releases serotonine, NE and dopamine, selective serotonine releasers only release serotonine, wich isnt a highly reactive molecule like dopamine.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

ugh1979 said:


> Exactly. bben fails time and time again to realise that.


I knew all of this and have assisted with papers on the subject. You really should not make assumptions. Ask Wes he knowns im well versed on all these topics.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> MDMA releases serotonine, NE and dopamine, selective serotonine releasers only release serotonine, wich isnt a highly reactive molecule like dopamine.


I know that fool, i just dont know why you mentioned single releasers earlier. Were you referencing my talking of fenfluramine?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben is a true ******* in this topic, but i still love him haha, challenging eachother claims is what makes a forum a strong knowledge database.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> However as you said before, there has to be excessive oxidative stress too, thats alot lower too on therapeutic doses, hyperthermia is just potentiating the oxidative stress.
> 
> How much hyperthermia are we even talking about here? AMT makes me feel a bit hotter while MDMA makes the sweat flood of my forehead, major difference (but i'm not making any conclusions here as i dont know how much hyperthermia is too much).
> 
> My conclusion is that amt is a long term safe option when combined with curcumin wich is not only a antioxidant but induces a ****load of neuroprotective pathways.


Wes I know all this. We have talked about it countless times. oxidative stress thresholds vary.....


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> bben is a true ******* in this topic, but i still love him haha, challenging eachother claims is what makes a forum a strong knowledge database.


Yes because i am the only one with as much knowledge as you, enough to challenge you on it easily.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> I know that fool, i just dont know why you mentioned single releasers earlier. Were you referencing my talking of fenfluramine?





> Serotonin releasers without hyperthermia can still cause depletion of serotonin and put into effect the same reaction that i believe causes mdma's issues.


I tought you were saying selective releasers deplete serotonine and cause simular toxiticy to mdma while nichols has shown they dont cause long term serotonine depletion.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I tought you were saying selective releasers deplete serotonine and cause simular toxiticy to mdma while nichols has shown they dont cause long term serotonine depletion.


No i was talking about triple releasers like MDMA i should have made that clear.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ethical wise, i do know my treatments may carry risks, but shouldnt the highly treatment resistant ppl living in misery not be aware of them? I think i know 4 ppl here taking AMT and im in contact with them all on MSN and they are doing good, or other combo's of me, i'm in contact with them too, and finally found remission after years of not finding anything.

Benefits outweigh the risk, and its a FACT that ppl even when they read about, they dont try those combo's unless they are hopeless and cant try anything else anymore.

Anyways thats my view.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Ethical wise, i do know my treatments may carry risks, but shouldnt the highly treatment resistant ppl living in misery not be aware of them? I think i know 4 ppl here taking AMT and im in contact with them all on MSN and they are doing good, or other combo's of me, i'm in contact with them too, and finally found remission after years of not finding anything.
> 
> Benefits outweigh the risk, and its a FACT that ppl even when they read about, they dont try those combo's unless they are hopeless and cant try anything else anymore.
> 
> Anyways thats my view.


People lurk this website and probably order aMT based on stuff they read here. I doubt they ever get in contact with you. Im jus saying its always good to be aware of **** you post up, and you do post up some dangerous **** sometimes. Im all for some of it, just not all of it. In this case I just wanted to voice my opinion that we are all entitled to.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> No i was talking about triple releasers like MDMA i should have made that clear.


We just need to find out how much oxidative stress is too much, and how much hyperthermia is too much (and yes i know its user dependent) before anyone of us can claim its perfectly safe (altough i beleive so due to what fastandbulbous on msn has tolled me) or that its as toxic as MDMA.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> We just need to find out how much oxidative stress is too much, and how much hyperthermia is too much (and yes i know its user dependent) before anyone of us can claim its perfectly safe (altough i beleive so due to what fastandbulbous on msn has tolled me) or that its as toxic as MDMA.


It probably is as toxic as MDMA at higher doses.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> People lurk this website and probably order aMT based on stuff they read here. I doubt they ever get in contact with you. Im jus saying its always good to be aware of **** you post up, and you do post up some dangerous **** sometimes. Im all for some of it, just not all of it. In this case I just wanted to voice my opinion that we are all entitled to.


Feel free to do that, but i beleive its the absolutely right thing to do, and you discussing the dangers adds in information wich gives interested people a balanced view.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> It probably is as toxic as MDMA at higher doses.


For sure


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Feel free to do that, but i beleive its the absolutely right thing to do, and you discussing the dangers adds in information wich gives interested people a balanced view.


Yes, unfortunately not everyone on this forum has realized I am generally correct when I post **** up, although i do sometimes phrase **** wrong.

In time, hahahaha.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

FYI, i didnt realize anything we talked about on MSN was confidential. i thought the people here knew you overdosed a good bit. I know you wanna be respected and all over here hha.


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## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

*If you can't behave yourselves you may find yourselves with a ban or blocked from this forum.*


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