# Stoicism



## HelpfulHero

Does anyone here enjoy Stoic philosophy? What have you heard about it? Are you familiar with the concept of Eudamonia? Etc


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## Retrograde Movement

I tried using it to overcome SA and depression for like a year. Every morning I would read Marcus Aurelius or Epictetus and try to reflect before starting the day. Kind of worked while I was doing it actively.


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## caveman8

Have a book on it on my Kindle. Have to get around to actually reading it though.


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## Persephone The Dread

I looked into it superficially a few years ago. I was (briefly) looking into the connections between Stoicism, Buddhism and Vulcan philosophy.


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## SplendidBob

I have read a little bit about it and have read Seneca's Letters From A Stoic. I intend to read Meditations at some point as well.

I like the stoic philosophy, and I particularly like the notion of not letting that which you cannot alter concern you. Realising that you have control over much less than you think you have (and learning to correctly identify that which you can control) I find particularly useful. I like the lack of judgement of others that seems to go along with stoicism. I enjoyed the metaphor of life being like a dog tied to the back of a cart. Ultimately there are huge forces outside of our control which push us in a particular direction, and you can either make things difficult for yourself (struggle, bark and fight the cart) or go along for the ride with cheerful disposition and make the best of it. 

Some things don't quite gel with me though, although this is largely due I think to the lack of scientific knowledge of the times, so isn't surprising.

I think though there are some very strong insights to be taken from stoicism, and its worth anyone looking into.

Oh, I remember now and I meant to post this when I read it. There was a very interesting quote about anxiety in letters from a stoic, I will try to dig it out.


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## ragnarkar

I've yet to read any of the classics (i.e. Marcus Aurelius) but my limited exposure to Stoicism has greatly reduced my anxiety, to say the least. I guess I'm a very methodical and logical person and one of the pillars of Stoicism: not worrying about what you can't control because it's completely illogical, by definition, to do so really struck a chord with me. Although it didn't cure my Anxiety completely, really taking in drilling this concept down in my head did wonders in reducing Anxiety, much more than any meds or therapy did.

Google "Circle of Control" to find a great exercise that guides you in taking all of your worries, finding ones you can't control, and letting go of them so you can focus your newly freed attention on the worries you can actually control.


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## Curmudgeon64

> the connections between Stoicism, Buddhism and Vulcan philosophy.


 -- Star Trek's Vulcans do seem to be inspired by the Stoics. There is also a very interesting article in the book _Watchmen and Philosophy_ about how Stoicism may have influenced that graphic novel.

I would like to know more about it than I do; so I thank all of you who cited references above!


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## HelpfulHero

Honestly I would recommend Epictetus' Enchiridion (Handbook) first. It is available for free at MIT's website or in audio format from Librevox. It is much shorter than Meditations like an hour to listen to, but boy does it pack a punch.


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## Curmudgeon64

I will definitely check that out.


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## Vuldoc

I don't see how any joy can be derived from studying Stoic philosophy.


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## Azazello

Vuldoc said:


> I don't see how any joy can be derived from studying Stoic philosophy.


That's because studying and practising are two different things. Michel de Montaigne is an example of someone who found great joy in studying Stoics. He revered Seneca and looked up to Justus Lipsius who tried to revive Stoicism in the 16th century. He rejected a number of its ideals, nevertheless it formed a great part of his own philosophy. To slightly paraphrase him, what Stoics did from virtue he taught himself to do from temperament.


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## SplendidBob

Vuldoc said:


> I don't see how any joy can be derived from studying Stoic philosophy.


Check out the frustration forum 

A guy who desperately wants to have a girlfriend but is unable to get one (due to him being unattractive or socially anxious, or whatever). A non stoic would do what people in the frustration forum do, get down on themselves, rant and complain about how unfair life is, how others get girlfriends and that girls are evil because they don't like them.

A stoic will just go 'meh, out of my control who likes me, I did what I could' and not give it much more thought.


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## Azazello

splendidbob said:


> Check out the frustration forum
> 
> A guy who desperately wants to have a girlfriend but is unable to get one (due to him being unattractive or socially anxious, or whatever). A non stoic would do what people in the frustration forum do, get down on themselves, rant and complain about how unfair life is, how others get girlfriends and that girls are evil because they don't like them.
> 
> A stoic will just go 'meh, out of my control who likes me, I did what I could' and not give it much more thought.


That's a novel way to think about it  <shivers>And it reminds me why I avoid that place like a plague. Whilst someone may not derive joy from acceptance and perseverance, one is unlikely to achieve it wallowing in self-pity and finger-pointing.


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## Vuldoc

Azazello said:


> That's because studying and practising are two different things. Michel de Montaigne is an example of someone who found great joy in studying Stoics. He revered Seneca and looked up to Justus Lipsius who tried to revive Stoicism in the 16th century. He rejected a number of its ideals, nevertheless it formed a great part of his own philosophy. To slightly paraphrase him, what Stoics did from virtue he taught himself to do from temperament.


It was just a lighthearted joke. Though what you said is very interesting, yes learning can bring joy to people even when it's learning about reserving emotion.


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## Azazello

Vuldoc said:


> It was just a lighthearted joke. Though what you said is very interesting, yes learning can bring joy to people even when it's learning about reserving emotion.


Apologies for the unintended lectured tone of my post, I did not realise what you said was in jest. It's just I find the subject fascinating.


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## HelpfulHero

Re: Stoicism and joy. I admit for myself it waxes and wanes a bit at times, however there is joy to be found there and I don't mean exclusively as though this is the one true path or whatever. I'll put it another way, one of the philosophers talks about the feeling of wishing to do something then reflecting on it, the people that are usually involved, the trouble that it leads to, and how long it takes to recover from that trouble then deciding NOT to do it and how proud you feel of yourself for properly using your restraint. This helps avoid a lot of the storms in life that we casually throw ourselves into. But there is another aspect as well, the idea of being in full activity, aligned with your spirit, and joyful in that activity doing good. This according to the stoics leads to Eudaimonia = "good" + "spirit". I have felt this briefly at times say for several hours or a few days and I hope over the years for it to become a frequent thing and second nature so that every moment is a song of joy to the Universe. I have met elderly people like this and have seen that they are the happiest to me regardless of their station and they often got there by different paths, however I think for me this is my way to get to "tranquility, equanimity, and apathy" as Epictetus would say. I find his example in particular inspiring. He was born a slave had his leg maimed at a young age (possibly by his master) and yet lived joyously as a teacher at one of the schools at his time. If his philosophy could work for him in those hard times under those circumstances, then I have no excuse. Be well.


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## Subunit

I've been immersing myself in Stoicism for a couple of years now, and it has helped with my anxiety more than anything else. For those who don't mind spending a bit, I recommend getting the audiobook of the Meditations from audible. It has a wonderful narrator (Duncan Steen), and I've been falling asleep to it regularly, so I've been though it a bunch of times already. 
I haven't yet found a good audiobook of the Enchiridion; the Librivox version is adequate, but not enough to help me fall asleep apparently.

I also warmly recommend "The Inner Citadel" by Pierre Hadot. It's a commentary on the Mediations and is really helpful in that it outlines a number of Stoic exercises that makes it easier to put it into practice. Not to mention that it helps you understand Marcus so much better. It's easy reading, even if academic.

Besides being helpful against anxiety, I also really like the ethical side of Stoicism and the emphasis on virtue being the sole good, and being a good man/woman. It's really liberating that all I have to concern myself with is doing good and being good. Whatever external thing happens to me cannot corrupt me or touch my soul, and as a consequence is completely indifferent. As Marcus says:

"Suppose that men kill you, cut you in pieces, curse you. What then can these things do to prevent your mind from remaining pure, wise, sober, just? For instance, if a man should stand by a limpid pure spring, and curse it, the spring never ceases sending up potable water, and if he should cast clay into it or filth, it will speedily disperse them and wash them out, and will not be at all polluted. How then shall you possess a perpetual fountain and not a mere well? By forming yourself hourly to freedom conjoined with contentment, simplicity and modesty."


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