# Tupac is so overrated



## MobiusX

The only reason why he was and continues to be so popular is his personality, that gangster mentality who speaks his mind in a loud manner and the fans love it. You can't say he's the best lyricist, not even top 10. He doesn't have the best flow, not even top 10. But the radio and hip hop fans keep putting it in everyone's mind that he's the best along with biggie smalls. The fans claim they are the best, but this is just their way of showing respect after what happened to them. The truth is that when you compare him to rappers like Nas and Jay Z, Tupac doesn't even come close. Anyone who actually listens to the lyrics will automatically know the truth that Jay Z is just on another level than Tupac ever was. He demonstrates superior rhyming skills and this is why he's still on the top. He has a lot of haters because Jay Z is cocky, but he has a reason to be. He's like Floyd Mayweather, he backs up what he says with the skills he mastered. He can make deep songs like American Dreaming, he can make party songs like Roc Boys, he can make Mafia music like Dead Presidents or Can I live. 

Nas didn't make good albums recently but has some good songs in them. Songs that Tupac would never be capable of making because he just isn't in that level. Nas can go deeper than Jay Z in many of his songs, and delivered good verses on Distant Relatives. 

All of those diss songs by Tupac are nothing great, nothing unique, what he says sounds like something a high school teenager would come up with, dissing people's moms etc... I guess I'm not one of those who is easily deceived about all of the hype with Tupac. If Tupac is better than Jay Z and Nas, then I guess Hip Hop as a whole must really suck cause Tupac wasn't that good to start off with.


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## teanabeana

*Wow!*

Wow! You're joking right?:um

Tupac was not just a gangster rapper. The media portrayed him this way and I think he kind of ran with it. He went to a performing arts high school, did ballet, and was an actor. Many of his documentary's show this. He did make a few "gangster rap" songs, but he also made a lot of socially conscious records as well.

Anybody who is a fan of Tupac knows that he is a poet. He wrote a lot of poetry and you can tell in many of his songs. His socially conscience songs were not hidden and were mainstream, so I dont see how you can say that he is no good. Have you heard any of these songs?

2pac- Changes





2pac- Keep Ya Head Up





2pac - Dear Mama





2pac - Shed So Many Tears





2pac - Brenda's Got A Baby





2pac - I Wonder If Heaven's Got a Ghetto





All of these songs were released with music videos, so they are not hidden. Most of these songs are no different than Nas or Jay-Z, and they even says they were inspired by Tupac.

None of these songs are him being loud and talking about nothing. He makes songs about political issues, poverty, single mothers, drugs, abortion, violence, and real life issues.

He also made "gangster rap" and party songs as well just like any other well rounded artist. Especially since he was 25 (and younger) when he made a lot these songs. So its not really fair to say he is no good. But I guess thats your opinion.


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## AussiePea

I guess his messages were intriguing, apart from that though I never saw the hype.


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## MobiusX

teanabeana said:


> Wow! You're joking right?:um
> 
> Tupac was not just a gangster rapper. The media portrayed him this way and I think he kind of ran with it. He went to a performing arts high school, did ballet, and was an actor. Many of his documentary's show this. He did make a few "gangster rap" songs, but he also made a lot of socially conscious records as well.
> 
> Anybody who is a fan of Tupac knows that he is a poet. He wrote a lot of poetry and you can tell in many of his songs. His socially conscience songs were not hidden and were mainstream, so I dont see how you can say that he is no good. Have you heard any of these songs?
> 
> 2pac- Changes
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 2pac- Keep Ya Head Up
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 2pac - Dear Mama
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2pac - Shed So Many Tears
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2pac - Brenda's Got A Baby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2pac - I Wonder If Heaven's Got a Ghetto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of these songs were released with music videos, so they are not hidden. Most of these songs are no different than Nas or Jay-Z, and they even says they were inspired by Tupac.
> 
> None of these songs are him being loud and talking about nothing. He makes songs about political issues, poverty, single mothers, drugs, abortion, violence, and real life issues.
> 
> He also made "gangster rap" and party songs as well just like any other well rounded artist. Especially since he was 25 (and younger) when he made a lot these songs. So its not really fair to say he is no good. But I guess thats your opinion.


I heard those songs already, it still doesn't put him near Nas or Jay Z's level.


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## fonz

Who's he overrated by? I've never heard of his albums being considered classics in the same sentence as Nas - Illmatic,Biggie - Ready To Die or Jay-Z - The Blueprint


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## Kustamogen

its all trash....discuss something more worthwhile!


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## Aloysius

General Larry Platt is far superior to your so called "rappers".


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## xTKsaucex

never been a fan of rap - I do love Immortal Technique, **** powerful stuff.


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## Dempsey

None of his songs were that jaw-dropping.


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## MobiusX

xTKsaucex said:


> never been a fan of rap - I do love Immortal Technique, **** powerful stuff.


I like some of his songs, I think 4th Branch is his best one


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## CopadoMexicano

Jay Z sucks imo. Nas is a great rapper probably in the top 5. But I would probably agree tupac is overrated in general. Here are my top 5:

Nas
Jadakiss
Styles P
Biggie
DMX


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## OtherGlove

Tupac was more of a poet. He was never a true hip hopper. Big L is better than anyone mentioned on this thread. Commercial hip hop has and always will be a joke. Even the really talented rappers youre all talking about put out weak albums. Eminem is the best example. His mixtapes stuff was amazing, but his albums are complete nonsense. Tupacs best CD is 2pacalypse now. Every thing important he had to say is on that cd in its pure form, before money took over. He sold out to hip hop.


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## OtherGlove

Kustamogen said:


> its all trash....discuss something more worthwhile!


Thats so closed minded. Ive seen some of the topics you consider worthwhile.


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## GummieBear

OtherGlove said:


> Tupac was more of a poet. He was never a true hip hopper. Big L is better than anyone mentioned on this thread. Commercial hip hop has and always will be a joke. Even the really talented rappers youre all talking about put out weak albums. Eminem is the best example. His mixtapes stuff was amazing, but his albums are complete nonsense. Tupacs best CD is 2pacalypse now. Every thing important he had to say is on that cd in its pure form, before money took over. He sold out to hip hop.


*True commercial rap made certain people popular I will not name names but any true hip hop head knows it is garbage but those guys are making money....The rappers who are the best lyricist are not that well known . Like you mentioned Big L I remember him I think that was one of the better times in hip hop . With Boot Camp Click , Wu-tang etc . I can't say a bad word about Eminem though my brother would kill me. *


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## OtherGlove

GummieBear said:


> *True commercial rap made certain people popular I will not name names but any true hip hop head knows it is garbage but those guys are making money....The rappers who are the best lyricist are not that well known . Like you mentioned Big L I remember him I think that was one of the better times in hip hop . With Boot Camp Click , Wu-tang etc . I can't say a bad word about Eminem though my brother would kill me. *


Eminem is the worst of all. The way he manipulates mass appeal. I mean it genius, but it's a disgrace. You have 45 year old moms bumping him in minivans all the way down to little suburban thugs. He has this old, old album called Inifinite. Its a whole other vibe. Like really mellow and intelligent. And again his dj lantern mixtape songs were instant classics


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## bezoomny

The video for California Love blew my mind when I was little.


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## leonardess

I like Tupac.


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## cgj93

tupac was one of the only rappers who had a brain.


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## purplefruit

2pac-Overrated. Was not some messiah people try to portray him as. Didn't he rape someone? Was involved in the stupid east coast-west coast beef. Had some great singles, other than that I'm not interested.

Biggie-Even more overrated, and was a dumbas*. His mom worked her *** off to provide for him, and he turns around and starts acting like a gangster.

I was with you until you started bigging up Jay-Z. Really he is trash now, he fell off after The Blueprint. I gave up on him after he fake-retired with The Black Album. Obvious publicity stunt. At this point he just goes on and on about how great he is and he's just trying to perpetuate this illuminati thing, along with that whole group (Rihanna, Kanye, et al.)

I would choose less popular rappers over all three of these guys. Like others mentioned earlier, Big L, Guru (pre-Solar), most of the Wu especially Ghost and The GZA, Mos, etc etc. But honestly I barely listen to hip hop any more, I just got tired of trying to sift through the garbage.


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## ShyFX

I'm a fan of 2pac. I'll admit he is overrated though.

I really don't like comparing rappers and musicians/artists. They're good in their own ways. All I'll say is Jay Z is 41 years old and Nas is 37. 2pac died when he was only 25 and I don't think he was even close to his prime. He had so much more left in him, It's sad. Also, if you listen to Jay Z or Nas you can tell they are both big fans of 2pac.

The thing that I like about 2pac is the way he says things. You can hear the pain and emotion in his voice. I can feel it.



Eliza said:


> I would choose less popular rappers over all three of these guys. Like others mentioned earlier, Big L, Guru (pre-Solar), most of the Wu especially Ghost and The GZA, Mos, etc etc. But honestly I barely listen to hip hop any more, I just got tired of trying to sift through the garbage.


:nw


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## heroin

All rap is overrated. Some dude boasting about how awesome he is over a monotonous bumpa-bumpa-thomp beat repeating over and over and over...

*SNORE*

Plus, I'm not from the American inner cities or whatever so whatever they talk in slang about is kinda foreign and unrelateable to me.


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## purplefruit

ShyFX said:


> 2pac died when he was only 25 and I don't think he was even close to his prime. He had so much more left in him, It's sad. Also, if you listen to Jay Z or Nas you can tell they are both big fans of 2pac.


I can definitely agree with that. It's sad when artists die so young (anyone, really) when you know they've got so much left. Especially when they're in their prime or just about to blow up.



heroin said:


> All rap is overrated. Some dude boasting about how awesome he is over a monotonous bumpa-bumpa-thomp beat repeating over and over and over...
> 
> *SNORE*
> 
> Plus, I'm not from the American inner cities or whatever so whatever they talk in slang about is kinda foreign and unrelateable to me.


...


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## heroin

Eliza said:


> ...


Do you like grindcore or death metal? If your answer is no, put me in your shoes and try to understand.


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## OtherGlove

heroin said:


> All rap is overrated. Some dude boasting about how awesome he is over a monotonous bumpa-bumpa-thomp beat repeating over and over and over...
> 
> *SNORE*
> 
> Plus, I'm not from the American inner cities or whatever so whatever they talk in slang about is kinda foreign and unrelateable to me.


Youre making a general statement based on hip hops mainstream mutation. Nothing, NOTHING on the radio or MTV is Hip Hop. It is slow techno at best.

To me Lil Wayne is the last nail ion the hip hop coffin. Im blown away by kids that think hes the best rapper ever. No one has seemed to notice that he never actually raps. rant, sorry.

Tupac was really impoprtant in his time and place, but he wasnt and isnt the best. We will never hear the best rapper of all time, because talent is irrelevant now. Tupac died as someone elses money making machine. Artistically, it was over before he died.


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## MobiusX

Someone said Big L is better than Nas and Jay Z, LOL. Better? Yes, in freestyles, that's it. When it comes to the final product, the actual album songs, he falls behind by a lot that it's not even funny. His songs sound more like freestyle than an actual song. Please don't compare Big L to the Hip Hop Gods, Jay Z and Nas.

Here is a freestyle lesson for Big L


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## OtherGlove

ShinAkuma said:


> Someone said Big L is better than Nas and Jay Z, LOL. Better? Yes, in freestyles, that's it. When it comes to the final product, the actual album songs, he falls behind by a lot that it's not even funny. His songs sound more like freestyle than an actual song. Please don't compare Big L to the Hip Hop Gods, Jay Z and Nas.


I wasnt talking about a product. I was talking about hip hop. If someone is a better freestyler to me they are the better MC. Hip Hop was invented by Djs freestyling to their own mix. You cant tell me the Product is more important than the culture. It seems like youre equating Fame and fortune with Talent

Jay-z is good. But his fame comes from all the ****ty songs he put on MTV and the radio. I'm sure given the chance Big L would have sold out too. Fact is, he just didnt. And Jay-Z has even said that Big L was the only rapper when he was coming up that he wouldn't f*** with


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## MobiusX

OtherGlove said:


> I wasnt talking about a product. I was talking about hip hop. If someone is a better freestyler to me they are the better MC. Hip Hop was invented by Djs freestyling to their own mix. You cant tell me the Product is more important than the culture. It seems like youre equating Fame and fortune with Talent
> 
> Jay-z is good. But his fame comes from all the ****ty songs he put on MTV and the radio. I'm sure given the chance Big L would have sold out too. Fact is, he just didnt. And Jay-Z has even said that Big L was the only rapper when he was coming up that he wouldn't f*** with


I agree about lil wayne, this guy is a joke, he rhymes off beat, some don't even rhyme or make sense, and they overdue the beat in order to make up for lack of good lyrics, people are left bobbing their heads not really listening to what he's actually saying.

I was talking about the product, the final product to me is the album, not the freestyle, I never heard someone rap an entire song in a freestyle and turn it into a song without changing anything, if this happens then it very rare, big l probably is better than Jay Z in freestyle, but big l doesn't have great songs like Jay Z like Dead Presidents, or If I ruled the World Nas, both of them have many songs that are on that level or better, but Big L always has that freestyle sound to him, he can't go deep on a topic like Nas does, Nas rapped about being a gun, Big L was a big Nas fan but that doesn't matter. I don't see what is so great about Big L. Was it his first album that was so great? Was it even on the level of Illmatic or Reasonable Doubt cause every time I ask a Big L fan what was the name of his album, they simply just don't know and that ebonics song is very pointless, "money is chips, sneakers is kicks"--- um...okay? and your point is...? compare that to Alphabet Slaughter by Papoose--- I'm not a fan of his music at all, but that song is very creative and hard to come up with lyrics like that from A-Z. That's probably his only good song that I like, compare that to ebonics and you see the point.


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## OtherGlove

Well for one thing, there are much better Nas examples than If I ruled the World. And dont get me wrong I like Jayz and I love Nas. But Ive always been really into Hip Hop culture, and I dont mean baggy jeans and 59/50s. For me anything that strays from that is a disgrace. BigL was deep into hip hop, look at his production. Hip Hop had forgetten those people long before he got started. But he recognized the value in their production style. For me, in the late 90's, he was the only person even remotely commercial, who was holding it together as a real MC.
And it was just a different style, Nas rapped concepts, Big L was a Battle rapper, and he talked about his neighborhood. Content doesnt make one better than the other, it's just a preference. You can have your opinion, and believe me, it's nice to have this conversation about Nas JayZ, and Big L. Rather than Lil wack Wayne and Young Geezy.


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## whiterabbit

If skills sold, truth be told, I'd probably be, lyrically, Talib Kweli. 

Then Nas and Kool Keith.

I haven't really listened to much Tupac so can't really comment. 

Pointless post #1127


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## heroin

OtherGlove said:


> Tupac was more of a poet.


Aye, sheer poetry...


> I ain't got no mother****ing friends
> That's why I ****ed your *****
> You fat mother****er
> West Side
> Bad Boy Killers
> You know who the realist is
> ****** we bring it to


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## Dub16

Tupac = gob****e

Kiirby is more talented than that


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## kiirby

You could say that for most people, though.


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## OtherGlove

heroin said:


> Aye, sheer poetry...


Ignorant. You have so much disdain for things you admit to not understanding. Sign of a simple mind

The Rose that grew from concrete:

Did you hear about the rose that grew 
from a crack in the concrete? 
Proving nature's law is wrong it 
learned to walk with out having feet. 
Funny it seems, but by keeping it's dreams, 
it learned to breathe fresh air. 
Long live the rose that grew from concrete 
when no one else ever cared.

The Depths of Solitude

i exist in the depths of solitude
pondering my true goal
trying 2 find peace of mind
and still preserve my soul
constantly yearning 2 be accepted
and from all receive respect
never comprising but sometimes risky
and that is my only regret
a young heart with an old soul
how can there be peace
how can i be in the depths of solitude
when there r 2 inside of me
this duo within me causes
the perfect oppurtunity
2 learn and live twice as fast
as those who accept simplicity


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## Brightpaperwarewolf

heroin said:


> Do you like grindcore or death metal? If your answer is no, put me in your shoes and try to understand.


Doesn't matter. I never read anything so racist and ignorant. You know there plenty of talented white rap artists.


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## heroin

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> Doesn't matter. I never read anything so racist and ignorant. You know there plenty of talented white rap artists.


I would ask how not liking a genre of music is "racist", but there is just no arguing with that kind of shoddy application of logic.


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## coldsorehighlighter

There's no doubt Tupac's image, death, as well as the timing of his career, played a major role in how he was viewed nearly immediately after his death. You can argue who is better, because that's all about personal taste and there is no winner when it comes to that. But no one had an impact on his community, more than Tupac did. He also never claimed to be a gangster, he claimed to be a thug, and there is a massive difference.

Edit: He may actually have claimed to be a gangster in some of his songs, I'm not sure. But if you've listened to the guy talk...


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## OtherGlove

the cheat said:


> He also never claimed to be a gangster, he claimed to be a thug, and there is a massive difference.
> 
> Edit: He may actually have claimed to be a gangster in some of his songs, I'm not sure. But if you've listened to the guy talk...


Yeah the thug thing was more of a social statement. The idea was, we arent asking anymore, we're telling. 
All the "gangsters" in rap are just characters, especially these days. Most are rappers turned gangsters, not gangsters turned rappers. Like NWA, half of them were in college when they made the first CD. Ice-T is one of the only rappers I know of who was actually involved in real gangs. And Tupac was in art school for dance when Digital Underground discovered him. He took ballet.


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## astrophysics

heroin said:


> Do you like grindcore or death metal? If your answer is no, put me in your shoes and try to understand.


i like grindcore and death metal, and i still like a few hip hop artists. some of it is really too great to not like.

BINARY STAR.


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## OtherGlove

ZigZagz said:


> Rap is no different from any other genre, in that there can be crap songs as well as good songs even by the same artist. There are a lot of artists or bands where I only like a few of their songs, but I'll still listen to those songs because I don't idolize musicians or care how crappy the rest of the music they make is. To a lot of people Tupac had some good songs, those other crappier songs don't detract from this.


Yeah, its a result of mass-marketing. Dont see it as much in independent music.


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## Mr. SandMan

Did you really just say that Tupac is overrated? That's some of the most ignorant **** I have ever read. Have you even heard hit 'em up, or any of his songs for that matter.

Tupac is the epitome of what hip hop is.


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## OtherGlove

bignate said:


> Tupac is the epitome of what hip hop is.


Couldnt be more wrong. Im afraid you dont really know what hip hop is if you believe that.


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## Mr. SandMan

ShinAkuma said:


> All of those diss songs by Tupac are nothing great, nothing unique, what he says sounds like something a high school teenager would come up with, dissing people's moms etc...


This is ignorant.

Do you understand that all of what Tupac made was BEFORE Nas, and Jay Z. It's history what Tupac did for rap. It's revolutionary. That's why Tupac is the greatest. Him and Biggie put hip hop music on your T.V. They sold hip hop. The first artists to put a stamp on it like that. That's why they are considered the greatest. All that 'mom' ****, that was hot then, you have to understand the times, and how hip hop has evolved into punchline based, wordplay music. Rairly will I hear a song when a artist reaches into their soul like Pac did. Some do, but not like Pac.


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## Mr. SandMan

OtherGlove said:


> Couldnt be more wrong. Im afraid you dont really know what hip hop is if you believe that.


Arent you from New England?

I'm not about to start an internet argument with white kids about hip hop... That sentence is a punchline haha


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## OtherGlove

bignate said:


> This is ignorant.
> 
> Do you understand that all of what Tupac made was BEFORE Nas, and Jay Z. It's history what Tupac did for rap. It's revolutionary. That's why Tupac is the greatest. Him and Biggie put hip hop music on your T.V. They sold hip hop. The first artists to put a stamp on it like that. That's why they are considered the greatest. All that 'mom' ****, that was hot then, you have to understand the times, and how hip hop has evolved into punchline based, wordplay music. Rairly will I hear a song when a artist reaches into their soul like Pac did. Some do, but not like Pac.


I'm curious how old you are? He made one album before Nas, and that was his best album. Will Smith made music before Tupac, so you must think that he's better.
And hip hop STARTED as punchlines and word play, it has evolved into nonsense today, but that doesnt include the people we're talking about.

As far as my ignorance. Ive been a dj since I was 13. I make beats for 3 different rappers. Ive read every book, watched every movie, and I grew up during the golden age of hip hop. You can disagree, but just know that my opinions are informed opinions.


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## OtherGlove

^^^

and for whatever reason hip hop made it to TV, and it isnt pac and big, I wouldn't give them credit. I'd blame them for commercializing the culture I grew up in


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## Mr. SandMan

Wow. You argueing what hip hop is, is like you living in one tribe, stealing another tribes music, and trying to tell that tribe what there music really is. It's complete ignorance. I know what Tupac is to hip hop music. You're speakin on a plain that you're not even a part of.


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## IllusionOfHappiness

bignate said:


> Arent you from New England?
> 
> I'm not about to start an internet argument with white kids about hip hop... That sentence is a punchline haha


Nate...are you not white? xD

I have nothing to add otherwise. I can't claim to know anything about hip hop.

Continue!


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## OtherGlove

bignate said:


> You're speakin on a plain that you're not even a part of.


You dont even know me. Yeah, i'm from Boston and as everyone knows we're all white, you fuc*ing dope. So are you a racist? Anyway, thats the most ignorant post on this thread. Bringing up race takes away any validity you may have. If you dont think white people have a place in Hip Hop then you definitely have no clue.

I know how important he was too, but I still think hes put on a pedestal that other people belong on first.


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## OtherGlove

bignate said:


> I'm not about to start an internet argument with white kids about hip hop... That sentence is a punchline haha


Dont forget Hip Hop never would have made it past the 80s without this guy:


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## leonardess

Uncle Bertram!


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## OtherGlove

leonardess said:


> Uncle Bertram!


ha. Yeah, theres something he isnt telling you


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## heroin

astrophysics said:


> i like grindcore and death metal, and i still like a few hip hop artists. some of it is really too great to not like.
> 
> BINARY STAR.


Okay, let me give you a more accurate example.

Do you think the following would appeal to everyone?






If it doesn't, do I get to call them racist because they don't like such awesome music made by brown people?


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## PHD in Ebonics

whiterabbit said:


> If skills sold, truth be told, I'd probably be, lyrically, Talib Kweli.


Words of wisdom.



heroin said:


> Okay, let me give you a more accurate example.
> 
> Do you think the following would appeal to everyone?
> 
> If it doesn't, do I get to call them racist because they don't like such awesome music made by brown people?


If it doesn't appeal to you, it doesn't appeal to you. No one here is trying to force anything down your throat. What's interesting though is that you go out of your way to generalize an entire genre, when you're obviously not even remotely familiar with the topic at hand.


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## heroin

Psychedelic Breakfast said:


> If it doesn't appeal to you, it doesn't appeal to you. No one here is trying to force anything down your throat. What's interesting though is that you go out of your way to generalize an entire genre, when you're obviously not even remotely familiar with the topic at hand.


How is saying that rap is a format in which someone talks (doesn't sing) over a looping beat a "generalization"? 90% of rap is like that. Just to mix things up, you might have a sample looping along with the beat or a g-funk like melody.

How is that "generalization" when much of the music follows that format?

If I say heavy metal is distorted guitar riffs backed by live drums with someone singing a melody over the rhythm, how is that an inaccurate generalization? Just because someone might use a drum machine once in a while or shout instead of singing doesn't make the generalization untrue.

I don't get why rap fans get so defensive when someone doesn't like their kind of music.


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## VanDamMan

Never was a tupac fan.

White guys defining and defending rap is funny.


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## PHD in Ebonics

heroin said:


> How is saying that rap is a format in which someone talks (doesn't sing) over a looping beat a "generalization"? 90% of rap is like that. Just to mix things up, you might have a sample looping along with the beat or a g-funk like melody.
> 
> How is that "generalization" when much of the music follows that format?


I like the part where you completely forget this part of your comment..

"All rap is overrated. _*Some dude boasting about how awesome he is*_......"

Anywho, I'm done beating this dead horse.


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## heroin

Psychedelic Breakfast said:


> "All rap is overrated. _*Some dude boasting about how awesome he is*_......"


A very common phenomenon within the genre, actually.


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## astrophysics

heroin said:


> A very common phenomenon within the genre, actually.


but not all rap is that way.


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## Mc Borg

heroin said:


> A very common phenomenon within the genre, actually.


How many Hip-hop album's have you listened to?

Listen to this while reading the lyrics. I think it will change the way you view Hip-hop:





A Vision: Your Ghost
Blowing Up Globes And Tightening Them Off
With An X Axis-esque C Clamp
And Setting Them Down Through The Clouds
Onto Empty Department Store Shelves
Where They Sit Facing All Sorts Of Islands
Toward Dead Wee-Hour Isles

Has The Earth Come
Loose From It's Galactic Neck
(Beneath You)
Cut Off Above The Clouds Gone Let Go
From The Space Around Dropped Down
Done To The Sun System Floor
Crooked, Pearl Of The One Universe
Cleaved, Fell Rolling Toward A Corner Of The Cosmos In The Blacked And Quiet Of Come Time

And You Are All, Lamb For This

Spring Is At Your Back Again
Though This Time Rare With Your Clarity
While Patches Of You Thought Whole
Had Turned Up Still Made A Tar Of Your Woe
And Flesh They're In

(Have You Gone Half Dead)

Yet Yet Have You To Let The Worst Most Be
As If It Were Atlas
To Your World Of Cope

And No One's Out There, Scared
You'd Set Your Eyes Off On The Ceiling
All Night In The Dark
Think Of A Song Or Maybe Breasts
Or Missing Body Parts

Without A Universal Law There Is No Gravity
Without Gravity There Is No Atmosphere
Without An Atmosphere There Is No Chance In Life
I Don't Exist

Without A Chance In Life
I Don't Exist


----------



## heroin

Mc Borg said:


> How many Hip-hop album's have you listened to?


I'm pretty sure it's a good few considering how it is shoved down everyone's throat these days. A lot of modern pop seems to have hip hop beats. Rap is pretty much all over the music charts, and on music channels. Restaurants think this is hip new music and play it on their music system.

I've heard more of it than I'd have liked.

I didn't say that there has never been a rap song in the history of music that doesn't have boastful lyrics. But a vast majority of it does. That is fact. The luminaries of the genre are pretty much all braggards. The gangster rappers boasting about how tough they are, others boasting about how rich they are or how many women they pull. 2pac, Notorious big, dr. dre, snoop dog, jay-z, that kanye chappie, the list is endless.


----------



## OtherGlove

heroin said:


> I'm pretty sure it's a good few considering how it is shoved down everyone's throat these days. A lot of modern pop seems to have hip hop beats. Rap is pretty much all over the music charts, and on music channels. Restaurants think this is hip new music and play it on their music system..


Thats like saying Avril Levigne is the reason you don't like rock music. You're trying to put down an entire genre of music based on the mainstream imitation. You could say the same for just about any genre


----------



## Brightpaperwarewolf

heroin said:


> Okay, let me give you a more accurate example.
> 
> Do you think the following would appeal to everyone?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it doesn't, do I get to call them racist because they don't like such awesome music made by brown people?


I thought that was pretty awesome. I wouldn't listen to it all the time, but in the right mood and setting. But I wouldn't say I don't like the music, those untouchables playing those primitive instruments. That's near the equivalent of what you said, although mine was a bit more specific to catch your cultural undertone. You specifically said American inner-city and one can assume you meant to say about black culture. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I'm just pointing that out. Hip-hop is not about race because hip-hop compromises artists of all races. It's simply one's artist's interpretation of the world. Sorry to burst your bubble but talking about what goes on in one's community is apart of life. You might not understand it, you might not like it, but it doesn't mean you dismiss it as garbage.

I don't listen to rap all that much, but I grown to appreciate a lot of it. You simply haven't found one that appeals to you. But not all rap is from the American inter city. To cites example:

British Rap Artist:






White rap artist:






What's common between, all hip-hop artists is they all live and breathe hip-hop in a way they formed their own culture. If you listen to these two, I don't know how you could objectively say that hip-hop doesn't require technical skill and creativity and is simply a repetitive beat looped over and over again. It's how it's produced.


----------



## astrophysics




----------



## heroin

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> But I wouldn't say I don't like the music, those untouchables playing those primitive instruments. That's near the equivalent of what you said, although mine was a bit more specific to catch your cultural undertone. You specifically said American inner-city and one can assume you meant to say about black culture. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I'm just pointing that out. Hip-hop is not about race because hip-hop compromises artists of all races. It's simply one's artist's interpretation of the world.


I think you may be overreacting just a teensy bit. What I said is not in the least analogous to calling someone "untouchable" or somebody's music primitive. I did write the post in a tone that was meant to wind people up, yes, but I restricted my criticism to the music and to its lyrical content.

I didn't imply that rap music is exclusive to black americans either. As far as I know, a significant percentage of your inner-city population is Hispanic, and includes other ethnic groups. And even if you interpret the mention of american inner cities as a reference to black culture, I said nothing derogatory about it. I said it's unrelateable to me. Which is true. Because I live halfway across the world and lyrics (which I understand are pretty important in rap music) that are heavily laden with unfamiliar slang and talk about the culture of american inner city life are actually very foreign to me. It's like asking you to try and relate to say, Mongolian nomad culture.



Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble but talking about what goes on in one's community is apart of life. You might not understand it, you might not like it, but it doesn't mean you dismiss it as garbage.


I didn't "dismiss it as garbage", I just described it in unflattering terms. I did so to wind the rap fans in this thread up a little bit, and also to express my dislike of the genre. And I have done so elsewhere on this very forum with other kinds of music. For example, in a thread a few days ago, I described Radiohead's music as being composed of simplistic four note melodies with Tommy Yorke whining over them.
I am not telling you or anyone else to stop listening to rap or whatever else. I am just saying that I don't like it.



Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> What's common between, all hip-hop artists is they all live and breathe hip-hop in a way they formed their own culture. If you listen to these two, I don't know how you could objectively say that hip-hop doesn't require technical skill and creativity and is simply a repetitive beat looped over and over again. It's how it's produced.


I didn't say it didn't require skill or creativity either. I'm sure it takes a fair amount of skill to come up with lyrics and rhymes. But plenty of rap songs have that minimal beat that loops for the duration of the song while the rapper raps over it. This can be verified by listening to pretty much any rap song on TV.

I did say it bored me to sleep. Which it does. I'm sure there are genres of music you don't particularly like. I don't know why expressing a dislike for rap music attracts accusations of racism so often. I don't know of any other genres that do that. As if the only reason someone wouldn't like rap is because they are racist.


----------



## teanabeana

OtherGlove said:


> Thats like saying Avril Levigne is the reason you don't like rock music. You're trying to put down an entire genre of music based on the mainstream imitation. You could say the same for just about any genre


^^Definitely agree. All of the "rap" and "hip-hop" that's mainstream on radio/tv is not real. Its polished manufactured crap. There are sooooo many artists in hip hop who dont just make songs that brag about "how awesome they are" (that is too funny)

I love hip hop and I love music that I can relate to. I like artists who talk about the trials and tribulations of everyday life. Thats what I relate to.

No one is saying that you should like a particular genre of music, its just not wise to generalize an entire genre by whats been given to you mainstream.


----------



## Misanthropic

ShinAkuma said:


> The only reason why he was and continues to be so popular is his personality, that gangster mentality who speaks his mind in a loud manner and the fans love it. You can't say he's the best lyricist, not even top 10. He doesn't have the best flow, not even top 10. But the radio and hip hop fans keep putting it in everyone's mind that he's the best along with biggie smalls. The fans claim they are the best, but this is just their way of showing respect after what happened to them. The truth is that when you compare him to rappers like Nas and Jay Z, Tupac doesn't even come close. Anyone who actually listens to the lyrics will automatically know the truth that Jay Z is just on another level than Tupac ever was. He demonstrates superior rhyming skills and this is why he's still on the top. He has a lot of haters because Jay Z is cocky, but he has a reason to be. He's like Floyd Mayweather, he backs up what he says with the skills he mastered. He can make deep songs like American Dreaming, he can make party songs like Roc Boys, he can make Mafia music like Dead Presidents or Can I live.
> 
> Nas didn't make good albums recently but has some good songs in them. Songs that Tupac would never be capable of making because he just isn't in that level. Nas can go deeper than Jay Z in many of his songs, and delivered good verses on Distant Relatives.
> 
> All of those diss songs by Tupac are nothing great, nothing unique, what he says sounds like something a high school teenager would come up with, dissing people's moms etc... I guess I'm not one of those who is easily deceived about all of the hype with Tupac. If Tupac is better than Jay Z and Nas, then I guess Hip Hop as a whole must really suck cause Tupac wasn't that good to start off with.


I don't think Tupac was overrated. He had a beautiful heart.


----------



## Dying note

teanabeana said:


> I love hip hop and I love music that I can relate to. I like artists who talk about the trials and tribulations of everyday life. Thats what I relate to.
> 
> No one is saying that you should like a particular genre of music, its just not wise to generalize an entire genre by whats been given to you mainstream.


I totally agree with you. If I find music I relate to, no matter what genre, I will appreciate it for all it is.

I love Tupac, btw. There are a lot of rap artists out there who aren't well known because they choose not to rap about the usual stuff you hear mainstream these days. It just takes some searching around. and that's the problem. Most people it seems aren't open minded enough to take that extra step and actually find the amazing tracks and artists out there. It's easier to say it all sucks and walk away, unfortunately.


----------



## teanabeana

Dying note said:


> I totally agree with you. If I find music I relate to, no matter what genre, I will appreciate it for all it is.
> 
> I love Tupac, btw. There are a lot of rap artists out there who aren't well known because they choose not to rap about the usual stuff you hear mainstream these days. It just takes some searching around. and that's the problem. Most people it seems aren't open minded enough to take that extra step and actually find the amazing tracks and artists out there. It's easier to say it all sucks and walk away, unfortunately.


It definitely takes some searching around. If it wasn't for the internet, I wouldn't know about half of the artists I listen to.


----------



## Mr. SandMan

OtherGlove said:


> You dont even know me. Yeah, i'm from Boston and as everyone knows we're all white, you fuc*ing dope. So are you a racist? Anyway, thats the most ignorant post on this thread. Bringing up race takes away any validity you may have. If you dont think white people have a place in Hip Hop then you definitely have no clue.
> 
> I know how important he was too, but I still think hes put on a pedestal that other people belong on first.


I am white btw.

Race has a lot to do with it, to say it doesn't is ignorant. It's black mans music, just like soul music and the blues. Black people invented this music, hip hop is from that culture, it's where it developed. That's why Eminem and any other white rapper can't be top ten, cause they're not black. My opinion. That's why Tupac is the greatest.


----------



## OtherGlove

bignate said:


> I am white btw.
> 
> Race has a lot to do with it, to say it doesn't is ignorant. It's black mans music, just like soul music and the blues. Black people invented this music, hip hop is from that culture, it's where it developed. That's why Eminem and any other white rapper can't be top ten, cause they're not black. My opinion. That's why Tupac is the greatest.


Right about Soul and blues music, wrong about hip hop. Its just not that simple


----------



## Mr. SandMan

OtherGlove said:


> Right about Soul and blues music, wrong about hip hop. Its just not that simple


Sure, hip hop decended from white peoples routes.


----------



## OtherGlove

bignate said:


> Sure, hip hop decended from white peoples routes.


I didnt say that. And I think you mean roots.


----------



## foe

I didn't like the whole California/Death Row G-Funk style of rap myself so I'm not really familiar with Pac's music other than a few of his hits. They were alright.

I'm more of a NYC rap fan, especially Mafioso sub-genre. It Was Written, The Infamous, Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, Pieces of a Man, Illmatic, Ready to Die, 36 Chambers, etc are some of my favorite albums.


----------



## foe

Oh, and I don't dislike all Westcoast rappers, just the G-funk stuff. 
I like Del the Funky Homosapien a lot, and he's from Oak-town.


----------



## heroin

I have a question for the female 2pac fans.

Why is 2pac given a free pass for his history of sexual molestation and his consistent use of the terms 'wh*res' and 'b*tches' to refer to all of womankind (a very common phenomenon in rap music)? That usage being free from any kind of dependence on any dramatic or poetic context.

I seriously doubt some random nerd using those terms would be afforded the same lenience by women. He would be branded a sexist pig, creep, *******, etc. at the very least, if not outright sued for harassment.

I have decided that henceforth I shall refer to all women as wh*res and b*tches. And perhaps I might decide to catch up with 2pac in the sexual molestation stakes as well. But, I don't want to be hated or disliked and called a sexist for those things.

So, how may I avail of the free pass that allows 2pac to speak of all women in derogatory terms and even sexually assault some of them yet remain wildly popular with members of the female sex? Should I start rapping? Do I need to achieve some kind of fame? Do I need to write songs about "f***ing some motherf***er's b*itch"? Or do I need to be black? Are black people allowed use of the words 'wh*re' and 'b*tch' to refer to women while people from other races are not, like the use of the word n*****? I am already brown so I'm kinda halfway there. Does that count for something?


PS.: It would be amusing if this post is deleted, while people are allowed to continue posting rap videos with explicit lyrics all over the forum.


----------



## au Lait

the sky is blue, water is wet, etc.


----------



## heroin

au Lait said:


> the sky is blue, water is wet, etc.


no tags?


----------



## au Lait

^ do your own dirty work bb


----------



## heroin

au Lait said:


> ^ do your own dirty work bb


I already did, 4 posts ago. The tagging is more your style.


----------



## au Lait

oh? i wouldn't know, i don't stalk your posts.

interesting that you seem to be so preoccupied with my activities on the forum.

i don't recall tags having a person's name attached to them. maybe i'm not as into tagging as you think.


----------



## Catherine Cavatica

Hey Bignate,
Can you send me some of Tupac's songs?
I have Ghetto Gospel, that's what got me interested in listening to his music.

CHeers


----------



## heroin

au Lait said:


> oh? i wouldn't know, i don't stalk your posts.


You seem to know them well enough considering your comparison of that post to the wetness of water.

Or do you really not know if water is wet?

Yeah, yeah I get your uninspired insults of creepy dude stalking people on forums, etc. They're as unoriginal as, well, the wetness of water.


----------



## Catherine Cavatica

teanabeana said:


> Wow! You're joking right?:um
> 
> Tupac was not just a gangster rapper. The media portrayed him this way and I think he kind of ran with it. He went to a performing arts high school, did ballet, and was an actor. Many of his documentary's show this. He did make a few "gangster rap" songs, but he also made a lot of socially conscious records as well.
> 
> Anybody who is a fan of Tupac knows that he is a poet. He wrote a lot of poetry and you can tell in many of his songs. His socially conscience songs were not hidden and were mainstream, so I dont see how you can say that he is no good. Have you heard any of these songs?
> 
> 2pac- Changes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2pac- Keep Ya Head Up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2pac - Dear Mama
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2pac - Shed So Many Tears
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2pac - Brenda's Got A Baby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2pac - I Wonder If Heaven's Got a Ghetto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of these songs were released with music videos, so they are not hidden. Most of these songs are no different than Nas or Jay-Z, and they even says they were inspired by Tupac.
> 
> None of these songs are him being loud and talking about nothing. He makes songs about political issues, poverty, single mothers, drugs, abortion, violence, and real life issues.
> 
> He also made "gangster rap" and party songs as well just like any other well rounded artist. Especially since he was 25 (and younger) when he made a lot these songs. So its not really fair to say he is no good. But I guess thats your opinion.


teenabeana,
Could you please pm me these songs? Would really appreciate it


----------



## MindOverMood

This page has been intense







.


----------



## Mr. SandMan

OtherGlove said:


> I didnt say that. And I think you mean roots.


No, I meant routes New England. White people don't have deep "roots," they only have routes they come from haha

Break it down to any criteria. Tupac, greatest rapper.


----------



## Mr. SandMan

Catherine Cavatica said:


> Hey Bignate,
> Can you send me some of Tupac's songs?
> I have Ghetto Gospel, that's what got me interested in listening to his music.
> 
> CHeers


Just youtube him, or google his records.


----------



## Catherine Cavatica

bignate said:


> Just youtube him, or google his records.


Ok, Will do


----------



## Mr. SandMan

VanDamMan said:


> Never was a tupac fan.
> 
> White guys defining and defending rap is funny.


It may be funny, but there are pleanty of white people that can. There are white professors who teach black history and ****, to black students. So to say that white people don't get it, isn't right. It just breaks down to an agricultural study.

PEACE!


----------



## au Lait

heroin said:


> You seem to know them well enough considering your comparison of that post to the wetness of water.
> 
> Or do you really not know if water is wet?
> 
> Yeah, yeah I get your uninspired insults of creepy dude stalking people on forums, etc. They're as unoriginal as, well, the wetness of water.


haha wtf? dude, i wasn't even replying to you. i was replying to the _topic of this thread_. tupac is overrated. water is wet. in other words, i was saying that i agree with the op. just b/c someone posts after you doesn't mean that they are talking specifically to you.

i never said you were stalking me. i just said you seem to be very interested in my comings and goings on this forum, as this has not been the first time that you've dug up something else i said/did in a completely unrelated topic in what seems to be an out of the blue personal dig. make of that what you will.


----------



## Antis

I agree that he is overrated, he's 70% image, 30% music. I do like some of his songs like Changes, Ghetto Gospel and Dear Mama. Some of his music is quite touching, and that's what I like about it, I mainly look to find solace in my music. 

But Tupac has a different side to him which isn't as nice.....


----------



## OtherGlove

bignate said:


> No, I meant routes New England. White people don't have deep "roots," they only have routes they come from haha
> 
> Break it down to any criteria. Tupac, greatest rapper.


\

Its like you have the words, you just don't know the right time to use them or in what order.


----------



## Brightpaperwarewolf

heroin said:


> I think you may be overreacting just a teensy bit. What I said is not in the least analogous to calling someone "untouchable" or somebody's music primitive. I did write the post in a tone that was meant to wind people up, yes, but I restricted my criticism to the music and to its lyrical content.
> 
> I didn't imply that rap music is exclusive to black americans either. As far as I know, a significant percentage of your inner-city population is Hispanic, and includes other ethnic groups. And even if you interpret the mention of american inner cities as a reference to black culture, I said nothing derogatory about it. I said it's unrelateable to me. Which is true. Because I live halfway across the world and lyrics (which I understand are pretty important in rap music) that are heavily laden with unfamiliar slang and talk about the culture of american inner city life are actually very foreign to me. It's like asking you to try and relate to say, Mongolian nomad culture.
> 
> I didn't "dismiss it as garbage", I just described it in unflattering terms. I did so to wind the rap fans in this thread up a little bit, and also to express my dislike of the genre. And I have done so elsewhere on this very forum with other kinds of music. For example, in a thread a few days ago, I described Radiohead's music as being composed of simplistic four note melodies with Tommy Yorke whining over them.
> I am not telling you or anyone else to stop listening to rap or whatever else. I am just saying that I don't like it.
> 
> I didn't say it didn't require skill or creativity either. I'm sure it takes a fair amount of skill to come up with lyrics and rhymes. But plenty of rap songs have that minimal beat that loops for the duration of the song while the rapper raps over it. This can be verified by listening to pretty much any rap song on TV.
> 
> I did say it bored me to sleep. Which it does. I'm sure there are genres of music you don't particularly like. I don't know why expressing a dislike for rap music attracts accusations of racism so often. I don't know of any other genres that do that. As if the only reason someone wouldn't like rap is because they are racist.


Believe me, I know you didn't have racist intentions or you were malicious, I know you are Indian and you were never exposed to the American way. But when you use it in that way, it sounds like you are some kind of ******* who simply hates rap because it's "black." That's why I commented in that way. So you know the way you said it back there in those simplistic terms makes you sound like you're an ignorant fool when you are clearly not. I wasn't one bit angry or upset, it's simply how I feel when that is said.

You mention it takes "a fair amount of talent" to write the lyrics and dismiss the mixing and the production, amount those elements to "a minimum beat that loops for the duration of the song." I don't think so, especially if all you think Radiohead plays is four note melodies. That's simply ridiculous. I think Radiohead is depressing but in no way it's because of their musicianship. O.K. Computer is simply an album of genius and if you think any artist/band can make an album of that magnitude and dismiss them as four note melodies, I'm simply at a loss of words. I know you like heavy stuff, I like heavy stuff too, but I find appeal in all ranges of music. But it's really how much you want to explore music and your tolerance. However to suggest some of these criticisms without taking time to listen to it makes you sound utterly ridiculous.

I only suggest you to do one thing. Get your mind altered, listen to Radiohead's album O.K. Computer from beginning to end. Tell me if you still think every song is a four chord melody over Thom Yorke whining. You'll thank me later.


----------



## heroin

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> I only suggest you to do one thing. Get your mind altered, listen to Radiohead's album O.K. Computer from beginning to end. Tell me if you still think every song is a four chord melody over Thom Yorke whining. You'll thank me later.


I bought that album more than 10 years ago and I still listen to it. I think it's an excellent album. It's more their recent stuff I was talking about when I made the comment about the four-note melodies. Tepid stuff like this:


----------



## Brightpaperwarewolf

Touche. That had no appeal to me.


----------



## Mr. SandMan

OtherGlove said:


> \
> 
> Its like you have the words, you just don't know the right time to use them or in what order.


It must be that you're really off topic, or just dont have anything else to say, but go ahead and get the last word, I know how yall do on the internet.

PEACE!


----------



## successful

I agree, 2 pac is highly overrated.


----------



## Elad

Another agreed..

too much hype from his death


----------



## Tom1210

Realy? Lol hes good...


----------



## MobiusX

too many tupac fans speak out of emotion


----------



## Whatevs

His charismatic and emotive delivery is unrivaled.

He wasn't a wordsmith by any means, but he had incredible force of personality.


----------



## leave me alone

Entertaining thread, i thought it deserved a bump. 

2pac is a legend and a huge influence. You cant compare him to other artists, even if his music is rather simple, it doesnt matter.

I never been into his music myself though.


----------



## Balloons

I bet you think God is overrated too. Haha, just kidding, but to be honest you don't hear alot of rapper with that much passion in their voice.


----------



## Ambitious

How can anybody dis Tupac? Tupac is a legend and he will be 'until the end of time'.

Have you not heard the power & passion within his voice and his lyrics? All he search for thru his short years was peace and harmorny...which he never got...


----------



## heroin

heroin said:


> I have a question for the female 2pac fans.
> 
> Why is 2pac given a free pass for his history of sexual molestation and his consistent use of the terms 'wh*res' and 'b*tches' to refer to all of womankind (a very common phenomenon in rap music)? That usage being free from any kind of dependence on any dramatic or poetic context.
> 
> I seriously doubt some random nerd using those terms would be afforded the same lenience by women. He would be branded a sexist pig, creep, *******, etc. at the very least, if not outright sued for harassment.
> 
> I have decided that henceforth I shall refer to all women as wh*res and b*tches. And perhaps I might decide to catch up with 2pac in the sexual molestation stakes as well. But, I don't want to be hated or disliked and called a sexist for those things.
> 
> So, how may I avail of the free pass that allows 2pac to speak of all women in derogatory terms and even sexually assault some of them yet remain wildly popular with members of the female sex? Should I start rapping? Do I need to achieve some kind of fame? Do I need to write songs about "f***ing some motherf***er's b*itch"? Or do I need to be black? Are black people allowed use of the words 'wh*re' and 'b*tch' to refer to women while people from other races are not, like the use of the word n*****? I am already brown so I'm kinda halfway there. Does that count for something?


I still don't have an answer to my question.


----------



## Ambitious

I'll give you an answer - Culture & norms


----------



## heroin

Ambitious said:


> I'll give you an answer - Culture & norms


Please expound.


----------



## StevenGlansberg

Good to know white people can't have an opinion on what good hip-hop is.


----------



## MojoCrunch

Whatevs said:


> His charismatic and emotive delivery is unrivaled.
> 
> He wasn't a wordsmith by any means, but he had incredible force of personality.


I'd have to go with this explanation, though I don't appreciate being called a b*tch or a ho. Certain artists/musicians/famous people just have that "zing". Tupac had it.

I personally think the most overrated rappers are Lil' Wayne and Eminem. Eminem is definitely one of the top 5 greatest rappers for sure, but too many people suck his d*ck and act as if he's the only good rapper ever (i.e. mainly white people - no offense). Luckily I always liked how Eminem is aware of this and doesn't let it get to his head.


----------



## crsohr

I like 2Pac's music, I think he was one of the more talented rappers out there and is rightly recognized for it. A rapper, actor, poet, screenwriter and activist all in one, with a great work ethic. To die at 25 and achieve as much as he did in that short period of time is remarkable. Of course he was no angel, but he's not exactly the devil the media portrayed him to be either. I've seen the documentary on his life so have a greater understanding of him as a person than the average person who pigeon-holes 'gangsta rappers'.



heroin said:


> I still don't have an answer to my question.


He didn't refer to 'all women' by those terms, it was certain types of women. Those that purposely go out and sleep with a man solely for financial gain instead of having respect for themselves and going to school etc. He has quite a few songs with a pro-woman theme too but of course they are overlooked by most people. He never made a song about "f***ing some motherf***er's b*itch", that was one line in the song. It wasn't even part of the actual lyrics either, more him being a big mouth before the song began. In that particular genre of music you have to portray yourself a certain way or you don't sell records, it's that simple.


----------



## MojoCrunch

crsohr said:


> He didn't refer to 'all women' by those terms, it was certain types of women. Those that purposely go out and sleep with a man solely for financial gain instead of having respect for themselves and going to school etc. He has quite a few songs with a pro-woman theme too but of course they are overlooked by most people. He never made a song about "f***ing some motherf***er's b*itch", that was one line in the song. It wasn't even part of the actual lyrics either, more him being a big mouth before the song began. In that particular genre of music you have to portray yourself a certain way or you don't sell records, it's that simple.


Brenda's Got a Baby.


----------



## dollparts

The Rose That Grew From Concrete by Tupac Shakur

Did you hear about the rose that grew
from a crack in the concrete? 
Proving nature's law is wrong it 
learned to walk with out having feet. 
Funny it seems, but by keeping it's dreams, 
it learned to breathe fresh air. 
Long live the rose that grew from concrete
when no one else ever cared.

This is my favorite piece by Tupac. 
The best rapper that ever lived. He was a realist and poet who incorperated this in his music. No punch lines - an amazing writing style. 

Real deep emotional depressing songs: 
Changes, My Block, Until the End of Time, Dear Mama, Stairing at The World Through my Rearview,


----------



## Hello22

Ambitious said:


> How can anybody dis Tupac? Tupac is a legend and he will be 'until the end of time'.
> 
> Have you not heard the power & passion within his voice and his lyrics? All he search for thru his short years was peace and harmorny...which he never got...


Agreed! Couldnt have said it better


----------



## InTheWorldOfNiM

heroin said:


> I think you may be overreacting just a teensy bit. What I said is not in the least analogous to calling someone "untouchable" or somebody's music primitive. I did write the post in a tone that was meant to wind people up, yes, but I restricted my criticism to the music and to its lyrical content.
> 
> I didn't imply that rap music is exclusive to black americans either. As far as I know, a significant percentage of your inner-city population is Hispanic, and includes other ethnic groups. And even if you interpret the mention of american inner cities as a reference to black culture, I said nothing derogatory about it. I said it's unrelateable to me. Which is true. Because I live halfway across the world and lyrics (which I understand are pretty important in rap music) that are heavily laden with unfamiliar slang and talk about the culture of american inner city life are actually very foreign to me. It's like asking you to try and relate to say, Mongolian nomad culture.
> 
> I didn't "dismiss it as garbage", I just described it in unflattering terms. I did so to wind the rap fans in this thread up a little bit, and also to express my dislike of the genre. And I have done so elsewhere on this very forum with other kinds of music. For example, in a thread a few days ago, I described Radiohead's music as being composed of simplistic four note melodies with Tommy Yorke whining over them.
> I am not telling you or anyone else to stop listening to rap or whatever else. I am just saying that I don't like it.
> 
> I didn't say it didn't require skill or creativity either. I'm sure it takes a fair amount of skill to come up with lyrics and rhymes. But plenty of rap songs have that minimal beat that loops for the duration of the song while the rapper raps over it. This can be verified by listening to pretty much any rap song on TV.
> 
> I did say it bored me to sleep. Which it does. I'm sure there are genres of music you don't particularly like. I don't know why expressing a dislike for rap music attracts accusations of racism so often. I don't know of any other genres that do that. As if the only reason someone wouldn't like rap is because they are racist.


heroin, your posts in this thread are almost all offtopic. if you wish to express your feelings towards hiphop then do so elsewhere, don't do it here. this thread is about whether or not you think tupac is overated, not about whether you like hiphop or not so unless you post something that pertains to the thread topic, then do not post here at all. you do the thread starter a complete disservice spamming the thread like this


----------



## InTheWorldOfNiM

MojoCrunch said:


> I'd have to go with this explanation, though I don't appreciate being called a b*tch or a ho. Certain artists/musicians/famous people just have that "zing". Tupac had it.
> 
> I personally think the most overrated rappers are Lil' Wayne and Eminem. Eminem is definitely one of the top 5 greatest rappers for sure, but too many people suck his d*ck and act as if he's the only good rapper ever (i.e. mainly white people - no offense). Luckily I always liked how Eminem is aware of this and doesn't let it get to his head.


I was about to flip when you said eminem was overated lol but yeah, ems definitly overated in the MAINSTREAM. But personaly I think he's really underated when you think about it. a lot of underground fans or people who listen to rappers like nas, jay overlook how creative eminem is as an overall rapper. lyricaly, no one during his time wrote the way he did, im not saying he was better or nothing, just that his writting technique/style was far different from how rappers like nas and jay wrote. I've heard someone else say this before but this is how I always saw em and nas. the main difference I see between them is when em writes a song, he writes like a fiction writter telling a narrative while nas writes his songs in a more poetic fashion. he was less metaphoric and more astute. but I'm personaly attracted to what I find creative and different. my two favorite rappers, em and kanye west are imo the most creative minds in hiphop interms of an overall artist.


----------



## CleverUsername




----------



## Layla

Tupac is a legend that will never be forgotten, call him what you like, he lives on inside every fan, Nas can take his beef, put some salt on it and eat it.


----------



## BobtheBest

Layla said:


> Tupac is a legend that will never be forgotten, call him what you like, he lives on inside every fan, Nas can take his beef, put some salt on it and eat it.


I agree.


----------



## Knowbody

2pac >>> threadstarter


----------



## Knowbody

Layla said:


> Tupac is a legend that will never be forgotten, call him what you like, he lives on inside every fan, Nas can take his beef, put some salt on it and eat it.


hol up...

I love me some Pac but Nas is the greatest tho :yes


----------



## CleverUsername

Knowbody said:


> hol up...
> 
> I love me some Pac but Nas is the greatest tho :yes


Yeah, and GZA and Prodigy/Havoc


----------



## RawrJessiRawr

Layla:1059799536 said:


> Tupac is a legend that will never be forgotten, call him what you like, he lives on inside every fan, Nas can take his beef, put some salt on it and eat it.


Agreed  I grew up listening to his music, he's from the bay area and had a big impact here.


----------



## StayingMotivated

just because YOU don't like him doesn't mean he's overrated. 

lots of people talking like they KNEW tupac ughh don't believe the MEDIA. duhhhh

I don't care if you dislike or like someone but do you like to be judged? no


----------



## Layla

Knowbody said:


> hol up...
> 
> I love me some Pac but Nas is the greatest tho :yes


I'm a little different, despise Nas and love Pac :yes



RawrJessiRawr said:


> Agreed  I grew up listening to his music, he's from the bay area and had a big impact here.


Yeah me too, grew up listening to him and the message he was trying to get across


----------



## StayingMotivated

sorry there will never be another tupac or anyone on his level. I take this as FACT.


----------



## Mr. SandMan

I thought this thread was deaded.

Pac is the GOAT of this whole rap sh*t. It jus is what it is.


----------



## MobiusX

another tupac, lol, he was a good actor, before being a rapper he was a ballet dancer, whether or not he was a real gangster, who really cares, it's about his skills as a rapper which he was not so good at, just mediocre, nothing significant, he was a good talker though, his loud mouth got himself killed. Someone please explain how the hell is Tupac better than Lupe Fiasco?
tupac= commercialized gimmicks triumph


----------



## Dr Hobo Scratch MD

didnt care to much for his thug s*** or all the stupid beefs that had an entire coast to coast warfare going ( the reason he is not alive today ).

i got all of his albums even though i only listened to like more or less a handful of songs. the tracks i liked most from him was the deep introspective stuff where he talked about love or considering suicide or paranoia over people wanting to kill him.

do for love - one of my favorite.





only fear of death - heard this song 1,000 times but heard this song the first time i took E with a bunch of people and i dont care what anybody says pac was in that room with us and was having a good time. in a house filled with blacklights plugged into almost every socket and this song on repeat all of us were in agreement we summoned the soul of 2pac.


----------



## kingfoxy

Tupac was rubbish


----------



## 50piecesteve

thats your opinion, i think he's great


----------



## Winds

- Nas is here
-
- Tupac is here
-
-
-
-
- Jay Z is here 

and in no way should be featured in the same plane as the two above him. Great businessmen, has nice beats, but :no as a pure lyricist in my eyes.


----------



## MobiusX

EastWinds said:


> - Nas is here
> -
> - Tupac is here
> -
> -
> -
> -
> - Jay Z is here
> 
> and in no way should be featured in the same plane as the two above him. Great businessmen, has nice beats, but :no as a pure lyricist in my eyes.


2 most recent songs Jay Z and Nas did together, Jay Z outshines him, Nas is not the same, Jay Z somehow manages to maintain on the top, it's embarrassing especially that in one of those songs it was a Nas album, sounded more like Nas was only featured in it, black republican










Jay Z still has it


----------



## Layla

MobiusX said:


> another tupac, lol, he was a good actor, before being a rapper he was a ballet dancer, whether or not he was a real gangster, who really cares, it's about his skills as a rapper which he was not so good at, just mediocre, nothing significant, he was a good talker though, his loud mouth got himself killed. Someone please explain how the hell is Tupac better than Lupe Fiasco?
> tupac= commercialized gimmicks triumph


You realise it's not still April 1st right?


----------



## Mr. SandMan

Dude, how can yall say that pac aint the greatest? That's like sayin ali aint the greatest. He's the GOAT, he's pac. 

And he was a thug btw. He never said he was a gangster. That's why it says "THUG LIFE" on his chest. You gotta think about it for a second.

Pac, GOAT.


----------



## InTheWorldOfNiM

Mr. SandMan said:


> Dude, how can yall say that pac aint the greatest? That's like sayin ali aint the greatest. He's the GOAT, he's pac.
> 
> And he was a thug btw. He never said he was a gangster. That's why it says "THUG LIFE" on his chest. You gotta think about it for a second.
> 
> Pac, GOAT.


don't ever compare tupac to Ali, tupac ain't the Ali of hiphop

in this interview, Rakim will tell you who he thinks is the Ali of hiphop


----------



## googleamiable

MobiusX said:


> jayz rox nas sux


but nas isnt trying to compete with jayz they have their own styles and bringing up black republican to prove ur point is dumb thats just a good song, as is this


----------



## Mr. SandMan

I don't care what Rakim thinks.

Promoters called us and said, 
"We got this show and want you to close us"
Ghostface and Brother Ali, Rakim with a band, It's so tough
We couldn't wait to see Rakim rock
But he never ever showed up
He swole up cause he didn't wanna go up before us

This what Tech N9ne said so **** what Rakim says.

Tupac, GOAT [/period] speaking done ..

SandMan, OUT.
​


----------



## Escaping Yesterday

Nas hasn't done a good album since Illmatic. And I say that as a loving fan who would fangirl while in Queensbridge. He just doesn't have it anymore. 

Big L >


----------



## MobiusX

michael1 said:


> but nas isnt trying to compete with jayz they have their own styles and bringing up black republican to prove ur point is dumb thats just a good song, as is this


I don't know where you got that quote from, I don't even use the word rox and I wouldn't say Nas sucks since I'm a big fan of him, I wish he was better than Jay Z, but he just isn't. Nas had a lot of potential, I hate to see talent not being used at its best, same for Jay Z except that he always manages to stay on top.


----------



## BobbyByThePound

Jay-Z is not all that great. He puts more emphasis on selling his music than actually making great music. And if you think Jay-Z is that great, you really shouldn't talk down on Lil Wayne. The differences between the two are mostly superficial.

"I pack heat like I'm the oven door"
"my name ain't bic but I keep that flame"
"I gotta thang"

The first one is Jay-Z, second is Lil Wayne, third is Pimp C. They all mean the same thing. But Pimp C isn't trying to show off with how creative he can get with punch lines and similes and metaphors. That's not what he's going for in his music. So you can see part of what separates him and what ties Lil Wayne and Jay-Z together.

Lil Wayne: "I'm a New Orleans n***a -- I get Super Dome."
Jay-Z: "Flyer than a piece of paper bearing my name"

Translated versions
Lil Wayne: "I get head"
Jay-Z: "I'm fly"

So neither of them are really saying anything. There's a lot of exceptions (just about the whole Reasonable Doubt album is an exception) but in general Jay-Z and Lil Wayne are both just coming up with witty ways of saying nothing. Jay-Z is like the spiritual predecessor to Drake's hash tag rapping. That's basically how they got famous. If you look at their most popular songs, that's pretty much how their music is.

Meanwhile, "One Day," which is generally one of the first songs a person hears when they're first getting into Pimp C and UGK, has lines like this:

_"My world a trip you can ask Bun B ***** I ain't no liar
My man BoBo just lost his baby in a house fire
And when I got on my knees that night to pray
I asked God why he let these killers live and take my homeboy's son away_"

Who cares if there's no clever punch lines? Pimp C's music has this depth, honesty and sincerity to it that Jay-Z just doesn't have. Jay-Z can't do a song like "One Day." Jay-Z can do a song where you play it loud and you feel cool and it's fun. But Pimp beats him at that too. Listen to "Dirt Off Your Shoulder" and then to "Wood Wheel." They're basically the same thing but Pimp still does it better than Jay-Z. And I think it might be arguable that "Dirt Off Your Shoulder" has a better beat but as far as the actual rapping goes, Jay-Z doesn't even close to Pimp C.











and if you still ain't convinced, here's the two on the same song together. 




Jay-Z's part is just okay and Pimp C's part is the highlight of the whole song.

And just to keep things simple, I stuck with using Pimp C but really there's a whole lot of other rappers besides him that are better than Jay-Z too. Including Biggie.


----------



## MobiusX

BobbyByThePound said:


> Jay-Z is not all that great. He puts more emphasis on selling his music than actually making great music. And if you think Jay-Z is that great, you really shouldn't talk down on Lil Wayne. The differences between the two are mostly superficial.
> 
> "I pack heat like I'm the oven door"
> "my name ain't bic but I keep that flame"
> "I gotta thang"
> 
> The first one is Jay-Z, second is Lil Wayne, third is Pimp C. They all mean the same thing. But Pimp C isn't trying to show off with how creative he can get with punch lines and similes and metaphors. That's not what he's going for in his music. So you can see part of what separates him and what ties Lil Wayne and Jay-Z together.
> 
> Lil Wayne: "I'm a New Orleans n***a -- I get Super Dome."
> Jay-Z: "Flyer than a piece of paper bearing my name"
> 
> Translated versions
> Lil Wayne: "I get head"
> Jay-Z: "I'm fly"
> 
> So neither of them are really saying anything. There's a lot of exceptions (just about the whole Reasonable Doubt album is an exception) but in general Jay-Z and Lil Wayne are both just coming up with witty ways of saying nothing. Jay-Z is like the spiritual predecessor to Drake's hash tag rapping. That's basically how they got famous. If you look at their most popular songs, that's pretty much how their music is.
> 
> Meanwhile, "One Day," which is generally one of the first songs a person hears when they're first getting into Pimp C and UGK, has lines like this:
> 
> _"My world a trip you can ask Bun B ***** I ain't no liar
> My man BoBo just lost his baby in a house fire
> And when I got on my knees that night to pray
> I asked God why he let these killers live and take my homeboy's son away_"
> 
> Who cares if there's no clever punch lines? Pimp C's music has this depth, honesty and sincerity to it that Jay-Z just doesn't have. Jay-Z can't do a song like "One Day." Jay-Z can do a song where you play it loud and you feel cool and it's fun. But Pimp beats him at that too. Listen to "Dirt Off Your Shoulder" and then to "Wood Wheel." They're basically the same thing but Pimp still does it better than Jay-Z. And I think it might be arguable that "Dirt Off Your Shoulder" has a better beat but as far as the actual rapping goes, Jay-Z doesn't even close to Pimp C.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and if you still ain't convinced, here's the two on the same song together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jay-Z's part is just okay and Pimp C's part is the highlight of the whole song.
> 
> And just to keep things simple, I stuck with using Pimp C but really there's a whole lot of other rappers besides him that are better than Jay-Z too. Including Biggie.


a rapper name pimp c is better than Jay Z? lol, never heard of that guy, had to search him, heard his music, not so great, Jay Z is a legend in hip hop, jay z's first album surpassed anything biggie released, and lil wayne shouldn't be mentioned, compared to Jay Z and the rest of the best, that's comical, no competition.


----------



## MindOverMood

Here is the the most underrated rapper of all time.


----------



## BobbyByThePound

MobiusX said:


> a rapper name pimp c is better than Jay Z? lol, never heard of that guy, had to search him, heard his music, not so great, Jay Z is a legend in hip hop, jay z's first album surpassed anything biggie released, and lil wayne shouldn't be mentioned, compared to Jay Z and the rest of the best, that's comical, no competition.


This is like if you made a thread saying "**** Quentin Tarantino, Steven Spielberg is the greatest movie director ever!" And then I say "Alfred Hitchcock is better." And then it turns out you don't even know who Alfred Hitchcock is. And if you don't know about Alfred Hitchcock, you probably have no clue about Federico Fellini, Ingmar Bergman, Francois Truffaut, Werner Herzog, etc.

If you've never heard of Alfred Hitchcock, you don't know enough about movies to talk about the greatest directors are. And if you've never heard of Pimp C, then you don't really know your **** when it comes to rap.


----------



## Knowbody

Jay Z is too shallow of a rapper to ever be considered the greatest.

If you're a fan of words and the english language then you'll most likely think Nas is the greatest. He's a true poet. A true artist

Jay Zs music is like the exact opposite type of music someone with SA would relate to. You can't get any more extroverted, materialistic and cocky than Jay Z


2pac >>> Jay Z in terms of subject matter and actually having something meaningful to talk about. Jay is better at wordplay than Pac. However Nas is better at pure wordplay than BOTH and about equal with Pac when it comes to subject matter. 2pac has all 3 beat when it comes to pure emotion on record though. None of the 2 could ever release a track like Dear Mama and be believable and they've both tried. As far as making good radio songs with catchy hooks, memorable beats and commercial appeal that grabs the attention of the casual listener Jay Z is better than both, although Pac wasn't too bad at it neither. Nas at this point doesn't seem to care about commercial appeal and focuses strictly on putting out quality music with no concern of being number 1 on the charts. Which is what a true artist does imo. He's not a business man and doesn't try to be.

Nas is the undisputed goat though because both Jay Z and Pac have tried to emulate him. He's a true artist's artist. Jay Z self admittedly is just a hustler who also happens to be pretty good at rapping


----------



## Knowbody

MobiusX said:


> a rapper name pimp c is better than Jay Z? lol, never heard of that guy, had to search him, heard his music, not so great, Jay Z is a legend in hip hop,* jay z's first album surpassed anything biggie released*, and lil wayne shouldn't be mentioned, compared to Jay Z and the rest of the best, that's comical, no competition.


Do you realize that when Jay Zs first album came out nobody outside of the tri state area even cared about it? It didn't even go platinum until YEARS later. However it was a great quality album though. Not better than either of Biggies albums _(Actually it might be on par with Life After Death but certainly not Ready 2 Die)_ but a good album none the less. People really didn't care about Reasonable Doubt or thought it was "classic' until Jay Z repeatedly said it on his songs and continuously reminded us until the point that we gave in and accepted it. Wayne recently did the same thing by calling himself "The best rapper alive" If you say it enough times people will accept it.

Jay Z was not a major player in hiphop until 1998 when Vol.2 sold 4 million records. Lets not be revisionist here breh.


----------



## BobbyByThePound

How many albums you sell shouldn't even be relevant in a discussion of how good a rapper is. How talented you are at pandering to 14-year-olds is not the same as how talented you are at making great rap music.


----------



## Blawnka

I don't even like 90% of rap, and he is DEFINITELY not over rated.


----------



## MobiusX

Knowbody said:


> Do you realize that when Jay Zs first album came out nobody outside of the tri state area even cared about it? It didn't even go platinum until YEARS later. However it was a great quality album though. Not better than either of Biggies albums _(Actually it might be on par with Life After Death but certainly not Ready 2 Die)_ but a good album none the less. People really didn't care about Reasonable Doubt or thought it was "classic' until Jay Z repeatedly said it on his songs and continuously reminded us until the point that we gave in and accepted it. Wayne recently did the same thing by calling himself "The best rapper alive" If you say it enough times people will accept it.
> 
> Jay Z was not a major player in hiphop until 1998 when Vol.2 sold 4 million records. Lets not be revisionist here breh.


you can say the same thing about Illmatic, didn't sell that much in the beginning. Jay Z is versatile, can rap what Nas raps, conscious rap with good lyrics, can rap party rap which Nas can't do, he attempted it a long time ago and failed miserably, Roc Boys- good song, you can't deny it, American Dreaming, good song, you can't deny his talent, Nas and Jay Z at their very best is disputable, but Nas has failed to deliver what he did when he was at his best, Jay Z can still rap at that level, I don't know how he does that. It's hard to dispute who's the best rapper ever. Nas said there isn't a best rapper but an argument can be made about who is the best rapper alive right now and sorry to disappointment you but it's not lil wayne like mtv and bet and his stupid fans believe it to be like, a lot of biggie's rap sound too basic, too plain, nothing unique, kinda boring if you ask me. at skills, big pun is better, doesn't mean biggie isn't good, tupac made good music, that should not be confused with him being the best rapper


----------



## moveon

What's funny is that most people that claim he's the greatest rapper ever have never listened to a full album by him. I like some of his music but i don't like him because he was not being himself and his vocabulary was very limited.


----------



## Insane1

Yeah Tupac is overrated... his music didn't became trash because he died young and didn't had the chance to sell-out,same thing with Biggie. I agree with what you said about Nas but honestly I don't get why you think Jay-Z is so great.. Tupac's music was deep and meaningful.. when Jay-Z atemmpts to make a deep song it turns out meh.. sure Jay has better rhymes and wordplay but he's not the greatest of all time like most people say. Everybody's saying Jay-Z's flow is special and unique.. but there's nothing great about it, Eminem and Lil Wayne have better flows than Jay.

There rappers out there that are way better than him,for example: Lupe Fiasco,Rakim,,Sage Francis,Eminem,Illogic,Eyedea,Immortal Technique,Vinnie Paz


----------



## googleamiable

lol anyone who thinks sage francis is a better rapper than jay-z.

vinnie paz? i like JMT but cmon get real.

from your list the only credible mcs to talk about along with jayz are immortal, em, rakim and MAYBE eyedea


----------



## MobiusX

Insane1 said:


> Yeah Tupac is overrated... his music didn't became trash because he died young and didn't had the chance to sell-out,same thing with Biggie. I agree with what you said about Nas but honestly I don't get why you think Jay-Z is so great.. Tupac's music was deep and meaningful.. when Jay-Z atemmpts to make a deep song it turns out meh.. sure Jay has better rhymes and wordplay but he's not the greatest of all time like most people say. Everybody's saying Jay-Z's flow is special and unique.. but there's nothing great about it, Eminem and Lil Wayne have better flows than Jay.
> 
> There rappers out there that are way better than him,for example: Lupe Fiasco,Rakim,,Sage Francis,Eminem,Illogic,Eyedea,Immortal Technique,Vinnie Paz


lil wayne, lol, that guy sounds like a sheep being tasered, there is nothing to his music, it's pop music, mediocre lyrics at best, he steals lyrics from rappers and even r&b singers like Aliyah who is dead, how sad is that? the rapper that should come to mind when speaking of good flow is big pun and az, immortal technique has terrible flow but meaningful, good lyrics but his latest music is not what it used to be from his 1st album, only some songs I like by him, 4th branch my favorite, Jay Z better than him


----------



## MobiusX

Jay Z has done what other rappers haven't been able to do, skills, versatility, longevity, relevant, entrepreneur, creativity, he's more than just a rapper.


----------



## squidlette

I'm more into Talib Kweli, Blackstar, and Common.


----------



## moveon

Jay is a one note rapper. Listen to the Diamonds From Sierra Leone remix. Kanye is talking about a serious issue and Jay still finds a way to talk about himself.


----------



## Insane1

MobiusX said:


> lil wayne, lol, that guy sounds like a sheep being tasered, there is nothing to his music, it's pop music, mediocre lyrics at best, he steals lyrics from rappers and even r&b singers like Aliyah who is dead, how sad is that? the rapper that should come to mind when speaking of good flow is big pun and az, immortal technique has terrible flow but meaningful, good lyrics but his latest music is not what it used to be from his 1st album, only some songs I like by him, 4th branch my favorite, Jay Z better than him


I know he sucks as a lyricist and all.. but I was talking about his flow










Nobody in the game can flow like him,maybe Eminem. I'm not talking about how fast he can rap,I'm talking about the way he can ride a beat. What I was saying about Jay-Z is that his music doesen't have depth at all.


----------



## Yogurt

This is a really good thread


----------



## Knowbody

MobiusX said:


> you can say the same thing about Illmatic, didn't sell that much in the beginning. Jay Z is versatile, can rap what Nas raps, conscious rap with good lyrics, can rap party rap which Nas can't do, he attempted it a long time ago and failed miserably, Roc Boys- good song, you can't deny it, American Dreaming, good song, you can't deny his talent, Nas and Jay Z at their very best is disputable, but Nas has failed to deliver what he did when he was at his best, Jay Z can still rap at that level, I don't know how he does that. It's hard to dispute who's the best rapper ever. Nas said there isn't a best rapper but an argument can be made about who is the best rapper alive right now and sorry to disappointment you but it's not lil wayne like mtv and bet and his stupid fans believe it to be like, a lot of biggie's rap sound too basic, too plain, nothing unique, kinda boring if you ask me. at skills, big pun is better, doesn't mean biggie isn't good, tupac made good music, that should not be confused with him being the best rapper


All the Jay songs mentioned are great songs but none have anything on them that are lyrically mind blowing. I'd honestly rather listen to a Nas acapella album than an Jay Z album. Lyrics is all I care about and Nas is ahead of Jay and always has been in that particular category. I could care less about party rap. There's nothing creative about Death of Autotune and Jay's attempts at so called conscious rap have ranged from terrible to so so also. The closest Jay comes to saying anything meaningful is when he's rapping about how his father wasn't around as a child. Jay Z is a great all around rapper, he makes commercial sell out music but still manages to gain the respect from hiphop fans that guys like Nas, Blackthought, Rakim etc garner. He's not super great in any particular rap field but he's solid in every category, i'll give you that. He could be considered the best "all around" maybe, but there are many people out there with better lyrics, better flow, better discography, more substance, and better commercial songs.

Also on a side note, I've noticed that people who tend to prefer Nas over Jay tend to be more knowledgeable of hiphop as a culture and know the history of it _(Which was proven by you not even knowing who LEGENDS like UGK were, especially when the guy you "never even heard of" was featured on one of Jay's biggest commercial records)_ where as Jay Z super fans tend to just be fans of Jay Z. Just an observation of mine


----------



## Knowbody

MobiusX said:


> Jay Z has done what other rappers haven't been able to do, skills, versatility, longevity, relevant, entrepreneur, creativity, he's more than just a rapper.


That's because he's a super hero


----------



## Dr Hobo Scratch MD

squidlette said:


> I'm more into Talib Kweli, Blackstar, and Common.


i agree. me to.

something about artists who can buy a u.s. state with the people who live there included still rhyming about selling drugs on the block and shooting people in the face severely cuts down the amount of exposed artists i listen to.


----------



## iLLmanic562

I feel you on the 2pac thing to a certain point...I grew up listening to him and thought he was the GOAT because there was just more emotion in his songs..
Jay-Z is great. Probably on top of the game after all these years..and you're right, people say he's cocky and what not, but most of his fans (including myself) aren't really behind the dude 100% because of that. lemmi rephrase that, he has great songs and good albums, great material, but he lacks emotion..like, I can't connect with him...I'm more of a Jay Z fan than Nas, never really liked nas...but certain songs you just feel it in your soul....
i guess it just prooves jay z is souless and connected to that whole illuminati/devil worshipping thing


----------



## Knowbody

never really liked Nas but ur screenname is illmatic?


:: facepalm :::


edit: just realized its illmanic*


----------



## millenniumman75

Somebody started a rumor that Tupac is still alive. I mean _really_?


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## Matomi

I think he is overrated, but maybe because i do not like him.
Same with Biggie, however i really like Jay-Z, but that's probably because i grew up listening to him because of my older sister.


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## Twelve Keyz

Whatevs said:


> His charismatic and emotive delivery is unrivaled.
> 
> He wasn't a wordsmith by any means, but he had incredible force of personality.


:agree


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## successful

millenniumman75 said:


> Somebody started a rumor that Tupac is still alive. I mean _really_?


Yeah Suge Knight did.


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## mltag

Yeah, Tupac is overrated. But let's face it, rap in general is overrated.

And no offende, but the biggest BS in all discussions of rap is the idea of so-called "socially conscious" rap. All a rapper has to do to be praised as "socially conscious" is reference some 5 Percenter psychobabble or rap about how bad ****** be and how awesome Farrakhan is. Nas in particular is a moron. A perfect example of a Nas lyric that is praised as "conscious" when in reality it's just pretentious and stupid is that line about how if he ruled the world he'd take all "the brothas from Attica and send them to Africa". Whuh? You might want to consult with Africa about that first, Nas (I doubt they'd be thrilled at the prospect).

I think the music industry in general just really really sucks now; it's basically all either crappy rap, uber shallow/commercial R&B, or super cheesy American Idol style bubble gum pop.


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