# Isn't it sad...



## AtomHeartBrother (Dec 26, 2013)

that only 24 people are viewing this wonderful section of the forums?


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## jondoe (Jul 2, 2014)

very sad indeed.:sigh


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## labelme (Apr 22, 2014)

Sin said:


> To me...positive thinking seems so fake and contrived...that said I tend to expect the worse and hope for the best.


Kinda sums up this section for me too.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Positive thinking isn't any more contrived than negative thinking. They are literally equivalent.

An optimist is someone who sees more value in positive thinking, and a pessimist is someone who sees more value in negative thinking, but neither position is correct. They're both right and wrong at different times.

I prefer positive thinking because it's at least constructive; negative thinking is only useful for building defenses against pain. I'd rather takes some risks and experience a bit of pain than numb myself to the point where I no longer care whether I live or die.

I've conquered depression and low self-esteem. I'm going to conquer SA too.


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## Cyclonic (Oct 25, 2012)

truant said:


> I prefer positive thinking because it's at least constructive; negative thinking is only useful for building defenses against pain. I'd rather takes some risks and experience a bit of pain than numb myself to the point where I no longer care whether I live or die.
> 
> I've conquered depression and low self-esteem. I'm going to conquer SA too.


+1

As someone who used to be extremely negative, self-loathing, and depressed, I can easily say that negative thoughts are addicting. In a place like this filled with many depressed posters, it's no surprise that many will flock together to share these feelings. While it's an unfortunate struggle for many here, many whom want to get better, it's a shame to see people who just don't want to get better. It becomes problematic when they want to drag others down with them.

However, I'll continue to make positive posts in the Frustration forum. They might get ignored by many, but that won't stop me. Knowing that I could potentially help someone or brighten their day because they read one of my posts, that makes me happy. :yes

To be quite honest, the happier I've become, the less I feel a need to post here (and the less content I have to post). Based on the numbers, I'm guessing that goes for others who change their outlook in life.


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## AtomHeartBrother (Dec 26, 2013)

Madax said:


> +1
> 
> As someone who used to be extremely negative, self-loathing, and depressed, I can easily say that negative thoughts are addicting. In a place like this filled with many depressed posters, it's no surprise that many will flock together to share these feelings. While it's an unfortunate struggle for many here, many whom want to get better, it's a shame to see people who just don't want to get better. It becomes problematic when they want to drag others down with them.
> 
> ...


nice post. What made you change? What steps did you take? What is your current life situation look like?


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## Cyclonic (Oct 25, 2012)

AtomHeartBrother said:


> nice post. What made you change? What steps did you take? What is your current life situation look like?


It was almost like flipping a switch for me. Somebody made a thread, something along the lines of "What do you have in life?". I thought it through, made a post and in this process it just dawned on me that I have so much to live for, my life isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was, and being depressed is a waste of time.

I realized that it's better to build on what I do have rather than be depressed about what I don't have.

The details of my life are still pretty much the same as they were a month ago, I just have a much brighter outlook on life now. I spend more time enjoying the little things in life.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Many years ago, I used to be in a very dark place. I got dumped weeks after moving to a new city where I didn't know anyone. I was unemployed and friendless and had no reasonable prospects for the future. I came very close, on several occasions, to committing suicide, but something held me back.

I spent the next few years trying to rebuild and spent a lot of time meditating. One day, my thoughts just sort of "ended" and everything was filled with an incredible beauty and peace. In that moment, I realized that the source of all of my pain was created entirely by my own thoughts, that without thought, there is nothing but joy.

I've had that experience a few more times, though never quite so intensely as the first time, and it has absolutely sustained me. I know what it's like to be healthy and whole and I'm doing everything in my power to make that my permanent condition. For years I've been relentlessly attacking my negative thought patterns and replacing them with positive patterns. I've still got a long way to go, but I've come a long way and I know that it's possible to beat this thing.

I often feel very sad when I'm here. I feel like I have something to share, something that can help, but it seems like so few people even want to believe that it can get better, that they just want other people to confirm their worst fears. I know I have no right to interfere, that each person is on their own journey and that what worked for me might not work for others, but I feel bad every time I try to help and I don't think that's the way a forum like this is supposed to be.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

truant said:


> Positive thinking isn't any more contrived than negative thinking. They are literally equivalent.
> 
> An optimist is someone who sees more value in positive thinking, and a pessimist is someone who sees more value in negative thinking, but neither position is correct. They're both right and wrong at different times.
> 
> I prefer positive thinking because it's at least constructive; negative thinking is only useful for building defenses against pain. I'd rather takes some risks and experience a bit of pain than numb myself to the point where I no longer care whether I live or die


Negative thinking can also be constructive, and is not only for building defenses against pain. Like it or not, it can point out where we need to improve or provide a needed realistic assessment of where things might go wrong. A lot of positive thinking is highly contrived, and sounds sappy and fake.


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## minimized (Nov 17, 2007)

There aren't too many people willing to lie to themselves.


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## Tymes Rhymes (May 28, 2014)

I know that this is the positivity section but if there is one thing that frustrates me about the " Frustration" section, it is that not a lot of people there are willing to get better.

Sure they say that they want to but then either shy away or completely disregard any advice on how to and continue to wallow in despair.

I will probably never completely rid myself of my cynical, realist, mentality but I wouldn't want to, I am not delusional like a majority of people in general society seem to be. 

Even so, I am now wanting to improve my circumstances for myself by doing what I want to do in life and the Frustration section is just that, frustrating.

Misery loves company.


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## Ricehead (Jul 28, 2014)

Tymes Rhymes said:


> I know that this is the positivity section but if there is one thing that frustrates me about the " Frustration" section, it is that not a lot of people there are willing to get better.
> 
> Sure they say that they want to but then either shy away or completely disregard any advice on how to and continue to wallow in despair.
> 
> ...


I agree and came to this thread just to post something similar! It is much easier for those who are feeling negative to relate to those feeling the same way. When I was deep in depression I went straight to the frustration stories too. But after reading so many it made a light turn on in my head that made me go " I don't want to be unhappy and wallow in my own despair like this anymore." So I started reading positive threads and how they changed their ways. By applying many different techniques and mindsets I have pretty much overcame my SA and want to help others do the same.


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## KimThanh (Jul 27, 2014)

Why should positive thoughts be contained to one section? Is it bad to just be a positive contributor to all of the negative thoughts being shared out there? :sus


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## Kind Of (Jun 11, 2014)

Not really. Most of what's in here is lists and the kind of fluff I could get from a motivational poster.

Things like in-depth thoughts on recovery, meditation techniques, etc, are better.


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## In a Lonely Place (Mar 26, 2012)

KimThanh said:


> Why should positive thoughts be contained to one section? Is it bad to just be a positive contributor to all of the negative thoughts being shared out there? :sus


It's not so much about containing the positivity but keeping out the negativity from this section. You can indeed spread positivity wherever you wish on the forum except from the Frustration forum coz it's for venting and being miserable.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

caveman8 said:


> Negative thinking can also be constructive, and is not only for building defenses against pain. Like it or not, it can point out where we need to improve or provide a needed realistic assessment of where things might go wrong. A lot of positive thinking is highly contrived, and sounds sappy and fake.


Yes, negative thinking has its uses. As does positive thinking. But since no one can predict the future, believing that negative thinking is "more realistic" or "rational" than positive thinking is delusional. That's being blindly optimistic about the accuracy of your pessimism. Pessimists aren't "more realistic", they're simply delusional in different ways. Anyone who believes differently is, indeed, lying to themselves.

No one has any idea what's going to happen, but how you think about yourself is going to have a huge impact on the decisions you make, not to mention your general mood. A pessimist says: "why bother?" and leaves it up to chance. An optimist says: "I'm going to get better" and maybe he will and maybe he won't but at least he's applying his intelligence to the problem. If I hadn't done a 180 and become an intentional optimist, I wouldn't have overcome many of the issues that I've eliminated from my life. The worst harm being optimistic has caused me is the occasional disappointment, which I was going to suffer anyway.

Pessimists like to moan about the dangers of "false hope", as if the dangers of "false despair" weren't driving people to suicide. Painting the world in such black and dreary colors that people start to believe that their melancholy mood pieces are factual statements about reality instead of artistic interpretations with no more validity than books filled with uplifting quotes. A lot of negative thinking is just as contrived and fake as positive thinking. It's painful to listen to because it's so obviously self-serving. Both blind optimists and blind pessimists are equally guilty of doping themselves on their thoughts.

But I'm not a blind optimist; I don't "hope" things will get better by "thinking happy thoughts". I observe the effect my thoughts have on my mood and behavior and I change them so that the negative side effects go away. It works, but you'll never find that out for yourself if you believe that "everything is a scam" because you're such a "hard core realist".


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## catcharay (Sep 15, 2011)

I think that ppl will be ready to change when theyre ready, moreso if you have suffered rock bottom and it hurts so bad that you will be readily constructive so that you dont fall down so far again.

Especially for your self esteem and persistence i think positive thinking will def have a changing effect. Whatever guise the term goes under i think it helps to trick the brain into saying i prefer to feel good otherwise if u think bad the brain will think those thoughts are relevant and keep attaching it in ur psyche to draw out the associated emotinal response.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

truant said:


> Yes, negative thinking has its uses. As does positive thinking. But since no one can predict the future, believing that negative thinking is "more realistic" or "rational" than positive thinking is delusional. That's being blindly optimistic about the accuracy of your pessimism. Pessimists aren't "more realistic", they're simply delusional in different ways. Anyone who believes differently is, indeed, lying to themselves.
> 
> No one has any idea what's going to happen, but how you think about yourself is going to have a huge impact on the decisions you make, not to mention your general mood. A pessimist says: "why bother?" and leaves it up to chance. An optimist says: "I'm going to get better" and maybe he will and maybe he won't but at least he's applying his intelligence to the problem. If I hadn't done a 180 and become an intentional optimist, I wouldn't have overcome many of the issues that I've eliminated from my life. The worst harm being optimistic has caused me is the occasional disappointment, which I was going to suffer anyway.
> 
> ...


Didn't say one type of thinking is better than another. Usually, it is what it is, regardless of thought.

In North America, positive thinking has evolved into almost cult-like status. Just look at the plethora of books on the subject. Creates pressure to always feel positive, regardless of how one really feels.

Also, you seem to make the standard error of confusing "negativity" with pessimism, that negativity = bad and positivity = good.

Ever watch American Greed, for example?

There are many assumptions there too, such as "a pessimist leaves it up to chance". How do you know that?"


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

caveman8 said:


> Didn't say one type of thinking is better than another. Usually, it is what it is, regardless of thought.


Events have no inherent meaning. We give them meaning by interpreting them. Unless you happen to be very good at meditating everywhere you go, interpretations happen automatically, and those interpretations are dictated by your beliefs. Blind optimists are people who go around interpreting everything in the best possible light; blind pessimists are people who go around interpreting everything in the worst possible light. Both groups of people are equally delusional and neither group is thinking more critically or rationally than the other. Optimists are happy about things they shouldn't be happy about, and pessimists are unhappy about things they should be happy about. One mindset leads people to take foolish risks, the other leads people to take different foolish risks. The only objective difference between these two groups of people is their day to day mood.



caveman8 said:


> In North America, positive thinking has evolved into almost cult-like status. Just look at the plethora of books on the subject. Creates pressure to always feel positive, regardless of how one really feels.


Every interpretation of the world can be turned into an ideology. People aren't very good at thinking for themselves, so they borrow other people's interpretations of events. I didn't become an optimist by reading books on positive thinking. I became an optimist by observing how my thoughts were shaping my interpretations of events and how those interpretations were dictating my actions. My interpretations, like the events themselves, are meaningless, but they influence my mood, my motivation, the quality of my responses, and my ability to solve problems. I don't feel any pressure to be positive, I'm simply aware of the destructive potential of negative thinking and avoid it whenever possible. It's the same reason I avoid eating too much junk food.



caveman8 said:


> Also, you seem to make the standard error of confusing "negativity" with pessimism, that negativity = bad and positivity = good.


It's a "standard error" because that's how the terms are used colloquially. I'm aware that they're not the same thing. Many people make an equally common error of confusing "positivity" with blind faith and self-delusion. Being positive hasn't affected my critical faculties.



caveman8 said:


> Ever watch American Greed, for example?


No. But I'd be happy to hear how it's relevant.



caveman8 said:


> There are many assumptions there too, such as "a pessimist leaves it up to chance". How do you know that?"


It's just one possible strategy. A pessimist might also say: "Well, most people don't seem to be able to overcome their SA, so it seems reasonable to resign myself to learning to live with it." That would be a conscious, intentional strategy to not try to overcome their limitations. There's no actual reason to prefer it as a strategy over trying to overcome their limitations. Both are meaningless interpretations, but one prepares you to have SA for the rest of your life and the other prepares you to find ways to overcome it.


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## Justlittleme (Oct 21, 2013)

it's the issue with us, we are all Ashamed of nothingness.


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## Lasair (Jan 25, 2010)

This is my favourite section


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

Truant, someone is drunk and blows a light and smashes into you - that has no meaning and needs interpretation?

If you don't feel pressure to be positive, that's good. But I don't agree with making a conscious decision to avoid negative thinking. I'm not saying get stuck in it, but that rather it's not necessarily bad in itself. Of course extremes either way become a problem. 
Life will always have ups and downs, some days better than others. I think that is something we should accept, whereas the positive-thinking-at-all-costs crowd tries to pretend otherwise. If you lose a job, someone might say one door closes another opens, but the fact is that second door was there already whether or not you lost your job.

American Greed - con men love optimists


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

caveman8 said:


> Truant, someone is drunk and blows a light and smashes into you - that has no meaning and needs interpretation?


It has no meaning whatsoever. It's merely an event. And you will interpret it whether you like it or not. One person will interpret it as fate, another will interpret it as chance, one person will ask: "Why did this happen to me?" another will thank god that it wasn't worse. How you interpret that event will influence how you respond to everything that flows from it. You may focus on your misfortune and become bitter and resentful, or you may focus on your good fortune at having survived and decide to live life to its fullest. There is no "correct" response, because the event has no meaning. The rational response is to interpret the event in the way that is most productive for your well-being and the well-being of others. But you're free to respond however you like. Most people respond unconsciously, as dictated by their beliefs.



caveman8 said:


> If you don't feel pressure to be positive, that's good. But I don't agree with making a conscious decision to avoid negative thinking. I'm not saying get stuck in it, but that rather it's not necessarily bad in itself. Of course extremes either way become a problem.


When is negative thinking good? Give me some examples so I know what you mean by negative thinking. Maybe we're using the words differently.



caveman8 said:


> Life will always have ups and downs, some days better than others. I think that is something we should accept, whereas the positive-thinking-at-all-costs crowd tries to pretend otherwise. If you lose a job, someone might say one door closes another opens, but the fact is that second door was there already whether or not you lost your job.


You're talking like an optimist.  The negative-thinking-at-all-costs crowd pretends that life always sucks. At least for them. Something good happens and they immediately think: "This won't last" or "It's not as good as I'd hoped it would be" or "They're only being nice to me because they want something". Something bad happens and they think: "See. I knew it would happen this way." It's exactly the same thing, just turned on its head. They're both delusional positions.

The only way to avoid delusion is to be very intentional about how you interpret events. To know that you're doing it so that you're not kidding yourself. Events _have_ no meaning. If you can remember that, you can choose to interpret things in the most constructive way possible. How can I make this event (losing my job) work for me? I don't see any advantage in thinking: "Most people who have SA never get better so I'm never going to get better either so I might as well learn how to live with it." Some people think that's perfectly rational. For all I know, all of those people are just stuck running the same negative loops over and over and revalidating each other's beliefs. There's no compelling logical reason to believe them. Billions of people believe in the tenets of organized religions, but that doesn't make them all true.

I choose to interpret my SA as something that can be corrected. Automatically, all of my actions will be different from the actions of people who assume they're never going to get better.



caveman8 said:


> American Greed - con men love optimists


Con men _are_ optimists.


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## cosmicslop (Nov 24, 2012)

What's more important than anything is being aware of our thought processes and how it affects us rather than seeing it as a matter of simply negative or positive thinking. If someone can acknowledge they have problem and that what they're currently doing or thinking about it isn't helping at all, they are already doing better than others here. At least then they know they need to change something, and work on making changes. That's all you can do. A defeatist attitude and self-pity is not sustainable at all in the long run. But distracting yourself from the reality of hardships with empty advice about positive thinking isn't helpful either.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

I was with you right up until you say



cosmicslop said:


> ...distracting yourself from the reality of hardships with empty advice about positive thinking...


where you succinctly summarize the "standard error" of equating positive thinking with delusion ("distracting yourself from reality") and lack of critical thinking ("empty advice") and fill the middle with a thick, creamy slab of exquisitely pessimistic thinking ("reality of hardships").

There's only one way to process an event framed as a hardship: with pity. If someone else has a hardship, you feel sorry for them. If _you_ have a hardship, you feel sorry for yourself. Hardship, as a concept, is a pity generator. It pumps out negative emotions. It's great if you have a hardship and other people see it as a hardship and they feel sorry for you because then you get all kinds of attention, and attention feels good as long as it's the kind of attention you're looking for. People dope themselves with self-pity ruminating about all their hardships. It's literally about the easiest way in the world to stimulate your brain because everybody can find things to feel bad about. (About the only thing that even comes close to giving the same kind of kick is indignation. All those SJWs getting stoned on their sense of outrage, trolling the Net for their next hit...)

I'm not discounting that many people face significant challenges. I even think that generating pity is an excellent strategy if your circumstances are extreme. Starving children in Africa (or wherever) don't have a lot of viable alternatives. Pity wouldn't have evolved if it wasn't useful. But most people are just indulging themselves. At the same time, you can't really blame them for it. Most of them have no control over their strategy because they don't understand the connection between the way they interpret events and how that interpretation shapes their subsequent behavior. It's the only program their brain knows how to run. No one's taught them that there's more than one way to process an event that they currently define as a hardship. And they're all afraid to try positive thinking because they don't want to delude themselves!

I am not an objectively "handsome" man. I could define that as a hardship if I wanted to. But I prefer to think of it as a challenging problem that may or may not have a solution. At this point, my appearance is not something I can use to attract partners, so I focus on other things instead. If I defined having an unsavory appearance as a hardship, I'd turn it into something permanent and then dwell on it. I'd use it to explain my lack of success with potential partners (thereby hamstringing my ability to progress) and I'd use it to excuse my lack of initiative in finding other ways to attract partners. And all my efforts to change my appearance would be saddled with negative, pessimistic thinking. I'd probably just come on here and feel sorry for myself because I'm "ugly". There are all kinds of people out there facing serious challenges that still somehow manage to enjoy life and maintain a positive attitude. I guarantee you they are using a different interpretation of their situation than most people. Same situation, different interpretation, different results.


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## cosmicslop (Nov 24, 2012)

truant said:


> Pity wouldn't have evolved if it wasn't useful. But most people are just indulging themselves. At the same time, you can't really blame them for it. *Most of them have no control over their strategy because they don't understand the connection between the way they interpret events and how that interpretation shapes their subsequent behavior.* It's the only program their brain knows how to run. No one's taught them that there's more than one way to process an event that they currently define as a hardship. And they're all afraid to try positive thinking because they don't want to delude themselves!


This is true. It's a one-track mind like that which makes them have a myopic view of themselves in their current situations. They don't get to see the other perspectives if all they see is one. Someone like that wouldn't have been able to deconstruct what a hardship is in a non-negative way like how you explained in detail.

But I guess what I meant to say in the quote you took from my post was said out of cynicism of what the idea of 'positive thinking' is to the general public. Positive thinking will always be strategies of how we view things that can improve our quality of life/well-being. But it's no surprise that an idea like Positivity has been made marketable to be sold to people who just want to feel good and always feel good so they don't have to deal deal with pain ever. Like there's so many books/blogs about it, and i don't know how many of them is of any real help. This excludes meditation as I know that's very effective and how it worked for you.


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## pineapplebun (Oct 25, 2011)

truant said:


> I prefer positive thinking because it's at least constructive; negative thinking is only useful for building defenses against pain. I'd rather takes some risks and experience a bit of pain than numb myself to the point where I no longer care whether I live or die.


Agreed! I was feeling down the other time and then I realized I could actually accomplish something if I decided to use that energy positively. I could make progress instead of experiencing regression or stagnation by remaining so negative.



Madax said:


> +1
> 
> As someone who used to be extremely negative, self-loathing, and depressed, I can easily say that negative thoughts are addicting. In a place like this filled with many depressed posters, it's no surprise that many will flock together to share these feelings. While it's an unfortunate struggle for many here, many whom want to get better, it's a shame to see people who just don't want to get better. It becomes problematic when they want to drag others down with them.
> 
> ...


Congrats to both of you for improving and recovering and taking your time to share your success and positivity in this forum! It is very much needed.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

cosmicslop said:


> This is true. It's a one-track mind like that which makes them have a myopic view of themselves in their current situations. They don't get to see the other perspectives if all they see is one. Someone like that wouldn't have been able to deconstruct what a hardship is in a non-negative way like how you explained in detail.
> 
> But I guess what I meant to say in the quote you took from my post was said out of cynicism of what the idea of 'positive thinking' is to the general public. Positive thinking will always be strategies of how we view things that can improve our quality of life/well-being. But it's no surprise that an idea like Positivity has been made marketable to be sold to people who just want to feel good and always feel good so they don't have to deal deal with pain ever. Like there's so many books/blogs about it, and i don't know how many of them is of any real help. This excludes meditation as I know that's very effective and how it worked for you.


The first paragraph makes a great point, which I've used in my answer to pineapplebun. As far as your second point goes: I agree.

"The Power of Positive Thinking" can be exploited, just like a religion, a philosophy, a social movement, or any other set of ideas. People have a very good reason to be suspicious of it. Some of those people are just con men, marketing a product they don't really care about or understand in order to make a fast buck, but a lot of those people "selling" positive thinking really are well-intentioned, but don't understand their own brains well enough to see where it's working, and where it isn't. Repeating positive affirmations over and over again is one of those things that works for some people with certain problems, but it's useless for tackling most of the issues that give people real difficulty. You have to deconstruct everything and check each part and rebuild everything from the ground up. Meditation and mindfulness are powerful tools, but you have to understand how they work and most people find them too abstract to be useful.



pineapplebun said:


> Agreed! I was feeling down the other time and then I realized I could actually accomplish something if I decided to use that energy positively. I could make progress instead of experiencing regression or stagnation by remaining so negative.
> 
> Congrats to both of you for improving and recovering and taking your time to share your success and positivity in this forum! It is very much needed.


Thanks, pineapplebun. Your realization is one that a lot of people haven't had yet. You can literally do that every time you feel negative, but there are a lot of people who don't even believe that it's possible. They're literally at the mercy of their negative emotions. (There are people at the mercy of positive emotions, too.) They think that people who do this are "deluding themselves" but all you're really doing is changing your interpretation of your situation.

It's like the picture of the young woman/old hag:










All the optimists are saying: "Man, she's hot." All the pessimists are saying: "Dude, what the hell is wrong with you? She's hideous." It's not just that they can't see it from the other perspective, it's that they don't even believe that another perspective exists so anyone who "sees" it is deluding themselves. Being intentionally optimistic is just consciously looking for better ways of interpreting experiences so that they work for you instead of against you. That doesn't mean you make things up and pretend you're looking at something that isn't there, like a dinosaur or Thomas the Tank. You use the same data, but you interpret it in different ways.​
I used to wallow hard, but I hardly ever do it anymore. My brain automatically starts flipping things around looking for different perspectives and it almost always finds a more productive way of looking at things. I just don't find negative interpretations to be all that useful most of the time.


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## caveman8 (Sep 3, 2012)

Yeah, I think too many of them are con artists.

I try not to wallow period. Positive or negative. Because that positive might be offset by a perceived snub the next day. Just move on. Don't think too much


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