# Do you ever feel bad/guilty about your preferences?



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

My phone crashed just before posting this so I've had to try and remember everything I wrote before. I swear it does this every time I make a long thread. Every time.

Anyway I think this a lot because I have very specific preferences that most guys can't meet (or wouldn't want to.) I'm attracted to a lot of feminine traits in guys, and it's not that I don't find any masculine traits attractive because I do (otherwise I'd just be attracted to women, and I find guys that are my type much more attractive) and I also have been attracted to guys who are less feminine but the traits I find myself desiring the most are one's guys usually dislike in themselves and it would probably lower their self esteem to hear about the stuff I find attractive. And it is a bit unreasonable especially in regards to physical stuff sometimes. And other guys have pointed this out before too (that most guys don't look that way,) and I have come across guys online (including this website,) who have been really insecure about not looking more feminine and I know in some cases it's partly because of people like me based on the things they say. Weirdly, my preferences are actually quite uncommon I think (perhaps rare,) and some guys seem to think they're universal - as in everyone finds physically feminine traits more attractive (confirmation bias I guess,) but I still feel bad seeing that sort of thing because I feel indirectly responsible in a way. But also even setting aside stuff like that, it's true that most guys don't look like the kind of guys I find attractive (or, again, want to)..

I was reading something and I've edited it slightly to stop people Googling what I was reading:



> He's there looking so small and fragile, and shivering a little.


And I found that line very attractive and I think that's partly why I like slim guys with slim legs as well, because they look kind of smaller. And I thought about it, and felt like that's a pretty messed up thing to find attractive, not that I don't find emotional strength attractive as well, but I guess I like the idea of being protective sometimes. Even if it's unrealistic.

And that's just one example I think this often like I like guys who wear makeup, and mix and match female/male clothing, who have long hair and various feminine interests, I like calling guys pretty etc (most would obviously hate that, so I don't ever say that to someone and wouldn't unless I knew they were OK with that kind of compliment.) Sometimes even when a guy is slightly more masculine in terms of personality, as long as they're still kind of introverted/shy, I still daydream about them in this same kind of weird dynamic at least 50% of the time.. Maybe more these days.. And guys don't even want to know about some of my sexual fantasies..... I know most guys would hate those lol. Yeah :/


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## Tetragammon (Jun 2, 2015)

All the freaking time...

It feels like a fatal flaw to be attracted to thin, petite women. Because I'm the polar opposite. I wish I could just force my stupid brain to prefer chubby or overweight women, I really do. But obviously it's not that simple. Everyone tells me to "just lose weight" and "work out" and all that. But obesity runs in my family; at least part of the problem is genetic. I also eat my anxiety most of the time. And I have a very strong aversion to being sweaty or out of breath. So it's really not so simple as changing myself. And don't even get me started on the whole "physical attraction isn't important" thing because it definitely is to me.

I'm also really attracted to boyish features and hobbies in women, and I feel bad about that sometimes because some people tell me that it makes me gay -- but I don't think I am. I'm generally not attracted to men. I just tend to dislike very feminine women who wear too much makeup and think that frilly dresses, perfume and high heels make them attractive, because that stuff is a turnoff to me. 

Not that it matters in the end. I intend to be a bachelor for life, TYVM.


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## ShadowOne (Jun 27, 2016)

sometimes. i dont feel like going into what those things are, but yea.

most of the time I just rationalize that I fall outside of other peoples preferences 97% of the time so whatever


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

I don't really feel guilty about it but I guess I feel a bit bad about the fact that it's not more common.

Mine is kind of the opposite of yours. I've always been really drawn to androgynous females. And often the androgyny is either an intentional thing they do to let people know they're gay or it's just their natural vibe they give off and they're still gay.

The thing about it is I never really knew the type of females I was most attracted to tended to be gay so I have a long history of trying to talk to them in the usual way that a guy tries to get to know a girl. Obviously, it rarely worked. But they never just came out and said "Hey. I'm a lesbian". 

Now that I know that I'm still attracted to that type. It's not something you can just turn off, ya know? :lol

I mean there are other types I'm attracted to. Sometimes I'm super attracted to really feminine women. Just depends.


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## mt moyt (Jul 29, 2015)

yep sometimes, definitely


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## ogloko (Feb 22, 2017)

well that makes me feel better about embracing the feminine stuff more than the masculine with myself. i love having long hair & wearing skinny jeans & stuff. i use "girl" soap & love the body spray from bath & body works. i even shaved my legs at one point because i feel like body hair is kinda gross. i like being myself.


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## Aribeth (Jan 14, 2012)

I shouldn't have to feel bad about it just because there's a lack of real men these days.


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## 629753 (Apr 7, 2015)

no, idc what people say it just an opinion not a fact


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## AllTheSame (Mar 19, 2016)

I don't feel bad or guilty about my preferences. At all. They're my preferences, ffs. They're not yours or anyone else's, they're mine, and i'm not in any way apologetic to anyone, or sorry for them in any way. And why should I be? 

I'll just focus on my past dating history to not be biased at all. I've mostly been attracted to much shorter, pretty slender, skinny women. No idea why, that's just who I usually am attracted to. Though I've dated some women with all the right curves in all the right places, too. Mostly I've also dated women that are social butterflies. The complete opposite of me (when I'm not at work). They have tons and tons of friends, and are usually pretty popular.

It is what it is lol. I'm attracted to that type and tbh I don't care why, and I don't care if you or anyone else approves or disapproves. I don't need other people's approval wrt that. I don't need other people to validate who I'm dating or sleeping with. I'm a grown man. I can make those decisions for myself. 

~sent from my GalaxyS4


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## Kevin001 (Jan 2, 2015)

Aribeth said:


> I shouldn't have to feel bad about it just because there's a lack of real men these days.


:laugh:


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## 629753 (Apr 7, 2015)

AllTheSame said:


> I don't feel bad or guilty about my preferences. At all. They're my preferences, ffs. They're not yours or anyone else's, they're mine, and i'm not in any way apologetic to anyone, or sorry for them in any way. And why should I be?
> 
> I'll just focus on my past dating history to not be biased at all. I've mostly been attracted to much shorter, pretty slender, skinny women. No idea why, that's just who I usually am attracted to. Though I've dated some women with all the right curves in all the right places, too. Mostly I've also dated women that are social butterflies. The complete opposite of me (when I'm not at work). They have tons and tons of friends, and are usually pretty popular.
> 
> ...


thank you


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Aribeth said:


> I shouldn't have to feel bad about it just because there's a lack of real men these days.


I can't imagine that's a problem for you in Eastern Europe. Seems like a traditional region. But I don't know how you define real men.



AllTheSame said:


> I don't feel bad or guilty about my preferences. At all. They're my preferences, ffs. They're not yours or anyone else's, they're mine, and i'm not in any way apologetic to anyone, or sorry for them in any way. And why should I be?
> 
> I'll just focus on my past dating history to not be biased at all. I've mostly been attracted to much shorter, pretty slender, skinny women. No idea why, that's just who I usually am attracted to. Though I've dated some women with all the right curves in all the right places, too. Mostly I've also dated women that are social butterflies. The complete opposite of me (when I'm not at work). They have tons and tons of friends, and are usually pretty popular.
> 
> ...


Why would I or anyone else care about your preferences? Not that I'd care either way but they aren't unusual at all.

To be clear, I don't care what random people think either but I do care about people I'm attracted to finding things I like disgusting or making them uncomfortable. Or the fact that the things I find attractive are quite specific usually.


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## Aribeth (Jan 14, 2012)

Oh yeah this reminded me of people who call others racist because of their preferences in men/women. I've seen it happen even on this forum many times. Apparently you're racist if you're not attracted to all races equally or some bs like that lmao.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

WillYouStopDave said:


> I don't really feel guilty about it but I guess I feel a bit bad about the fact that it's not more common.
> 
> Mine is kind of the opposite of yours. I've always been really drawn to androgynous females. And often the androgyny is either an intentional thing they do to let people know they're gay or it's just their natural vibe they give off and they're still gay.
> 
> ...


I have noticed a lot of gender non conforming people (especially women,) tend to be gay or at least bisexual, but there are some who aren't.

But yeah I know, there have been exceptions but my basic preferences have not really changed at all since I was 12 or so. So if there is an off button I haven't found it yet lol.



ogloko said:


> well that makes me feel better about embracing the feminine stuff more than the masculine with myself. i love having long hair & wearing skinny jeans & stuff. i use "girl" soap & love the body spray from bath & body works. i even shaved my legs at one point because i feel like body hair is kinda gross. i like being myself.


cool 



ShadowOne said:


> most of the time I just rationalize that I fall outside of other peoples preferences 97% of the time so whatever





Tetragammon said:


> I'm also really attracted to boyish features and hobbies in women, and I feel bad about that sometimes because some people tell me that it makes me gay -- but I don't think I am. I'm generally not attracted to men. I just tend to dislike very feminine women who wear too much makeup and think that frilly dresses, perfume and high heels make them attractive, because that stuff is a turnoff to me.
> 
> Not that it matters in the end. I intend to be a bachelor for life, TYVM.


lol yeah, this thread is basically hypothetical for me too.

Also yeah that doesn't make you gay (or bi etc,) if you're not attracted to men.


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## AllTheSame (Mar 19, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I can't imagine that's a problem for you in Eastern Europe. Seems like a traditional region. But I don't know how you define real men.
> 
> Why would I or anyone else care about your preferences? Not that I'd care either way but they aren't unusual at all.
> 
> To be clear, I don't care what random people think either but I do care about people I'm attracted to finding things I like disgusting or making them uncomfortable. Or the fact that the things I find attractive are quite specific usually.


Why would anyone care about my preferences lol? Idk why. But I also know that I don't care if they have an opinion about my preferences. I honestly couldn't care less lol.

Hypothetically, if I'm attracted to a woman who is as you said "disgusted by the things I like, or makes them uncomfortable"...then I'm likely not going to be in a LTR with that woman anyway lol. So....

Idk why people like to get into other people's lives and have opinions about things like who they're attracted to. But I don't have to know why. Because I don't care.

~sent from my GalaxyS4


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## RagnarLothbrok (Dec 16, 2016)

I tend to like girls who are the same height as me (5'9), which may be outside the norm, because I like having level eye contact- However, I'm still attracted to short girls. The women I like tend to be usually quite aloof/shy and not very emotional and don't have a lot of typical 'girly' interests. Often it's pretty difficult to read if they're ever interested in me and if I should approach them/ask them out. 

I do find it interesting that men are usually attracted to a range of physical attributes (that includes me), but some women have very specific types- I suppose it's all about being more selective about potential mates.


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## euphoria04 (May 8, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> To be clear, I don't care what random people think either but I do care about people I'm attracted to finding things I like disgusting or making them uncomfortable. Or the fact that the things I find attractive are quite specific usually.


I wouldn't concern myself with those people if I were you. They would be better off working on their own insecurities and learning to accept themselves rather than projecting their insecurities onto you and judging you for them.


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## konas8 (Nov 23, 2016)

Would you say your personality is more masculine, or at least leans towards being more masculine?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

euphoria04 said:


> I wouldn't concern myself with those people if I were you. They would be better off working on their own insecurities and learning to accept themselves rather than projecting their insecurities onto you and judging you for them.


Maybe, but I can empathise because I have a lot of insecurities myself that I have to work on.



konas8 said:


> Would you say your personality is more masculine, or at least leans towards being more masculine?


I find it difficult to say, I would probably say it's like 50/50 based on my own opinion of myself. In real life some people think I act kind of like a guy (that's what a few people said,) and my brother thinks I'm quite masculine (but also feminine in some ways.) And a couple of days ago he said something like 'if he feels like being a diva sometimes' he talks to a female friend he has because I'm more like a bro. So I guess somewhat. I really can't see myself the way other people do, I have no idea how I come across to other people. Probably childlike a lot of the time as well because I look young + the social anxiety.

Hmm. Yeah I'll just go with somewhere in the middle. I'm definitely not really feminine though.


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## Ominous Indeed (Sep 6, 2015)

Nope. Pick me, and I'll save you a boob job and 10k dollars, because I often prefer smaller boobs over bigger ones.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> To be clear, I don't care what random people think either but I do care about people I'm attracted to finding things I like disgusting or making them uncomfortable. Or the fact that the things I find attractive are quite specific usually.


I feel bad in the sense that I doubt they'll ever be met but I don't feel guilty in any way. I'm only 1 man, there are many others that the women I wouldn't be interested in could pair up with so I'm the only one that's being harmed.

None of my preferences are insulting and other than physically (I wouldn't be attracted to a woman that looked like me) I have all of the things that I would be asking for (so I don't feel like a hypocrite).

I do understand what you're getting at though, it would be like if I was attracted to women I thought were incredibly stupid (I'm not), they probably wouldn't be too pleased to learn that.


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## konas8 (Nov 23, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I find it difficult to say, I would probably say it's like 50/50 based on my own opinion of myself. In real life some people think I act kind of like a guy (that's what a few people said,) and my brother thinks I'm quite masculine (but also feminine in some ways.) And a couple of days ago he said something like 'if he feels like being a diva sometimes' he talks to a female friend he has because I'm more like a bro. So I guess somewhat. I really can't see myself the way other people do, I have no idea how I come across to other people. Probably childlike a lot of the time as well because I look young + the social anxiety.
> 
> Hmm. Yeah I'll just go with somewhere in the middle. I'm definitely not really feminine though.


In case you want to try it this way, I've found you can get a good idea by determining what role you occupy in relationships with different people; what role you naturally assume. But essentially yes, I've found being more feminine makes you attracted to masculine traits and vice versa. Though that doesn't count out being attracted to traits of your own end of the spectrum; you'll just naturally gravitate more towards your opposite. At least from my experience.


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## CaptainMarvel (Dec 5, 2016)

It's more like I hate how sex works. It's more like a drug addiction.

The problem is I'm often attracted to women I don't really get along with. So after the initial honeymoon of sexual attraction is over, the relationship goes down hill.

If I think about it in terms of probability. Let's say there is a 3/10 chance of finding a girl I meet sexually attractive and a 1/10 chance of finding her compatible. That means there is a 3% chance that someone I meet will be both. 

So, for all practical purposes you can only choose one rare quality. It's either either compatible looks or personality. You can have both but it's highly unlikely.

Does this doesn't sound right. Have I made some kind of logical error?


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

I do sometimes feel guilty. I feel like being attracted to very masculine men just feeds the insecurity of men who are not overly masculine. But then I remember no one cares about my preferences so it doesn't really matter what they are.

Sometimes I get the impression that it's wrong for me not to be attracted to overly feminine or flamboyant gay men, but ... they're not attracted to me, either, so lololol. I'd be happy dating another transwoman, though. It would just be nice to feel understood for once.

Preferences are weird.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

CaptainMarvel said:


> It's more like I hate how sex works. It's more like a drug addiction.
> 
> The problem is I'm often attracted to women I don't really get along with. So after the initial honeymoon of sexual attraction is over, the relationship goes down hill.
> 
> ...


Yeah I don't think you can really have both if you have preferences that aren't really common, unless you yourself are universally attractive or close to.



truant said:


> *Sometimes I get the impression that it's wrong for me not to be attracted to overly feminine or flamboyant gay men,* but ... they're not attracted to me, either, so lololol.


Hmm really? Do people say that? Why would it be wrong though lol? (Can't even guess why that's an expectation anyone would have)


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## Ai (Oct 13, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> To be clear, I don't care what random people think either but I do care about people I'm attracted to finding things I like disgusting or making them uncomfortable. Or the fact that the things I find attractive are quite specific usually.


No, I don't feel _guilty_... But, I suppose I could _kind of_ relate to what you're saying here, in as much as it sometimes makes me a little... sad, I guess, when I find a feature or quality that someone is really insecure about attractive. But I'd say it's more rooted in sympathy, a sadness that something I see so much beauty in could cause them so much anguish... This is especially true for people who are convinced they're physically hideous. It makes me wish that I could show them what I see.


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## Nitrogen (Dec 24, 2012)

No, though my preferences are not common (or portrayed often) or kind of joked about (among gay men,) but I don't feel guilty about it. I feel bad for the fact that it's implied that somehow I'm gross or the people I find attractive aren't really attractive but that's my business and not theirs.

I think a lot though about why exactly I have the preferences that I do have, not that it's inherently a bad thing, but just why I appreciate certain characteristics so much. But preferences are just that: preferences. It's our personal filter of the world and we cannot help but have them. Arguing over preference and opinion is completely ludicrous, because everyone has them (whether they admit it or not).

The only time I could think of it being selfish or 'bad' would be if someone is somehow harming, putting down, or otherwise being a jerk to those who don't fit into their preferred 'category.' It is nothing more than being instinctively drawn to a particular version of a thing over another.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

I prefer somebody who doesn't want sex, and seeing how often people say, "You kind of have to EXPECT sex in a healthy relationship, otherwise, wouldn't you just call that a friendship??"...yeah, I feel guilty about my preferences. :/ They seem utterly unrealistic.

I also tend to be attracted to people who either have a lot in common with me or at least I sense they could have a lot in common with me, and I've been shamed over that (called narrowminded, a snob, etc.) as well. Not to mention that people I'm attracted to, who would be attracted to me also, apparently don't exist. Which makes me feel stupid for having preferences in the first place.

I also keep forgetting I'm a whole lot older than most guys I get crushes on. ;_;

Oh well. At least I feel guilty and stupid on my own.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Hmm really? Do people say that? Why would it be wrong though lol? (Can't even guess why that's an expectation anyone would have)


Idk. Internalized homophobia or something. Like, if I'm not attracted to them I must be self-hating (since in their minds I'm a gay man, lulz). Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, though. It's just an impression I get sometimes from certain people.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

Persephone The Dread said:


> To be clear, I don't care what random people think either but I do care about people I'm attracted to finding things I like disgusting or making them uncomfortable. Or the fact that the things I find attractive are quite specific usually.


Whats so 'disgusting' about what you're into? Is it really that untraditional?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Karsten said:


> Whats so 'disgusting' about what you're into? Is it really that untraditional?


Yeah, I would say so.

Some of this felt too personal so I deleted it and I've just left the second paragraph which may or may not make sense. Also not much detail can be allowed because this isn't 18+

I think part of what puts me off it (heterosexual sex,) more is that I can't do most of the stuff I want to do, and any guy I could date wouldn't want to and would find homosexual sex acts disgusting because they are straight, even stuff that is implied as gay but doesn't involve male body parts is a huge turn off for many straight guys. It feels disapointing and kind of like a personal rejection and like I'm forced to suppress part of myself that no one is aware of firstly because I have no choice because of my female body and partly because of their sexuality.

Like I said though this is all hypothetical as it's unlikely that I'd find someone I'm compatible with, attracted to and who is attracted to me.

There's other stuff too but but I don't want to write more right now.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

truant said:


> Idk. Internalized homophobia or something. Like, if I'm not attracted to them I must be self-hating (since in their minds I'm a gay man, lulz). Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, though. It's just an impression I get sometimes from certain people.


Oh right, yeah I have seen some people say that to gay guys (that they are self hating,) since most gay guys aren't into very feminine men but a significant number of gay guys are either feminine or.. I'm not sure feminine is always the right word it's not always just femininity.


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

A preference is just that: a preference. It's what someone personally finds appealing, desirable, fun, comforting, etc. 

The only problem is when people are pressured to give up individuality to pursue a broader preference, or are treated poorly due to it. The problem is the insults being flung due to everything from weight to age to race. 

If people take someone's preference personally because that preference doesn't include their traits, oh well? They can put on their big boy/girl panties and look for someone with mutual preferences.

We live in a culture that equates rejection to insult, not compatibility or preference. If you are rejected, then clearly you did not have enough of ___. If you have lots and someone still rejected you, then they're too picky, entitled, etc.

I've rejected people simply for leading a completely different lifestyle that I find exhausting to be around (novelty-seeking, travel, opposites attract, etc). They may have an entirely different narrative related to appearance, "alpha-"ness, etc.

They can take it as a sign to look for women who enjoy that, or sure, they can decide that because one girl didn't want that kind of life, they have to give it up. And then complain when another subset of girls doesn't find them as appealing anymore.

What's wrong with a heterosexual woman wanting to be protective towards their partner?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Moxi said:


> A preference is just that: a preference. It's what someone personally finds appealing, desirable, fun, comforting, etc.
> 
> The only problem is when people are pressured to give up individuality to pursue a broader preference, or are treated poorly due to it. The problem is the insults being flung due to everything from weight to age to race.
> 
> ...


I'm not a heterosexual woman. But even if I was, though there is nothing objectively wrong with that, a lot of guys prefer to take on that role themselves in heterosexual relationships, or it makes them insecure and feel less needed.

Also as LonelyLurker said:

I do understand what you're getting at though, it would be like if I was attracted to women I thought were incredibly stupid (I'm not), they probably wouldn't be too pleased to learn that.


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I'm not a heterosexual woman.


Sorry, I seem to remember your profile from way back when. I rarely look at them.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Moxi said:


> Sorry, I seem to remember your profile from way back when. I rarely look at them.


Darn you quoted before I edited my post.

It's fine I'm non-binary and I've never identified as heterosexual (was listed as other on my profile since I've been here, or at least as long as I had that part filled in) because it doesn't describe my sexuality well.


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## roxslide (Apr 12, 2011)

Yes and no. I definitely have a type. Though I can be attracted to anyone if they are particularly attractive, I am super drawn to girls who are brunettes with milky skin. I am also somewhat similarly to you, attracted to meeker, shorter guys. They don't have to look androgynous but I just prefer them to be softer in some way. I don't feel guilty about having a physical type at all. 

I think I like more feminine/less masculine males because I am interested in switching up the typical dynamic in heterosexual relationships. I don't need or want to be in power all the time but power play (and more explicit stuff along that line lol) is definitely something I have always been into. For whatever reason, I think I subconsciously reason that the guys I like might be more open to that sort of thing. I definitely have reservations about sharing it with people (because like you said, it can repulse some guys) but again, I don't feel really guilty about it, maybe kind of embarrassed. I've literally thought about this stuff/went for that type since I hit puberty really.

What I feel guilty about is that I think my expectations from other people on a personal level is too high. I feel like I am very hard on people sometimes (which is probably more to do with how I feel about myself) and eventually find others intolerable and jump ship, when I think a more balanced/healthy person would give them another chance or it would never even occur to them in the first place.


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## Aribeth (Jan 14, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Darn you quoted before I edited my post.
> 
> It's fine I'm non-binary and I've never identified as heterosexual (was listed as other on my profile since I've been here, or at least as long as I had that part filled in) because it doesn't describe my sexuality well.


I still think you're a straight girl in denial. lol


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Aribeth said:


> I still think you're a straight girl in denial. lol


Tbh Aribeth I don't care what you think. You're either a sociopath or someone who's studied all the traits in order to mimic one to appear edgy online. I still think it's pretty funny that you somehow ended up on this site of all places.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Moxi said:


> A preference is just that: a preference. It's what someone personally finds appealing, desirable, fun, comforting, etc.
> 
> The only problem is when people are pressured to give up individuality to pursue a broader preference, or are treated poorly due to it. The problem is the insults being flung due to everything from weight to age to race.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this. _But I still feel bad._ Because I can see that people are miserable and I don't want to contribute to their misery by not being attracted to them. (Even though they're not attracted to me....) If I have very conventional tastes, and they don't fit those tastes, I'm just one more person driving one more nail into the coffin of their self-esteem.

I agree with what you're saying, though. It's not my fault that I have the preferences that I have (though there are people who argue otherwise; viz my comments re internalized homophobia), and it's up to them to find some way to deal with it (and there are people who argue otherwise), but it doesn't change the fact that I might _regret_ that my preferences make them feel this way.

I wonder if there's a connection, though, (I'm just spitballing here) between that feeling of regret and how attractive to others one is in general? I've been undesirable to basically everyone my entire life, so perhaps it triggers a sympathetic response? I feel guilty because I know what it's like to be told over and over (and over) again that one isn't attractive. But if you've been attractive to others your whole life you may assume that the experience of others is essentially like your own and that there is no reason to feel regret for your lack of attraction because someone else will come along and find them attractive anyway. If that's true, then, on average, the less attractive one is, the more guilty one will feel about having preferences. (Subject to all the usual disclaimers about exceptions, etc.)


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## forever in flux (Nov 26, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Tbh Aribeth I don't care what you think. You're either a sociopath or someone who's studied all the traits in order to mimic one to appear edgy online. I still think it's pretty funny that you somehow ended up on this site of all places.


What's the difference between a sociospath and a psychopath?

That's not a rhetorical question btw, I'm genuinely curious.


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## Aribeth (Jan 14, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> Tbh Aribeth I don't care what you think. You're either a sociopath or someone who's studied all the traits in order to mimic one to appear edgy online. I still think it's pretty funny that you somehow ended up on this site of all places.


woah what's your problem


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## Chris S W (Mar 5, 2017)

No I don't ever feel guilty about my preferences, but I can understand why you do Persephone. Maybe I would as well (in an irrational way) if I were attracted the way you are. But I don't think you should feel guilty or bad about it, because it isn't like you would choose to inflict all of the said preferences that you find attractive on to someone if you could right? You would like to find someone who already has these traits or circumstances. Therefore you have nothing to feel bad about. If anything I think it's nice that you would find someone "looking so small and fragile, and shivering a little" attractive seeing as you want to be protective of them.


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## Chris S W (Mar 5, 2017)

Chris S W said:


> No I don't ever feel guilty about my preferences, but I can understand why you do Persephone. Maybe I would as well (in an irrational way) if I were attracted the way you are. But I don't think you should feel guilty or bad about it, because it isn't like you would choose to inflict all of the said preferences that you find attractive on to someone if you could right? You would like to find someone who already has these traits or circumstances. Therefore you have nothing to feel bad about. If anything I think it's nice that you would find someone "looking so small and fragile, and shivering a little" attractive seeing as you want to be protective of them.


I have a feeling that I could have it wrong though, so please correct me if you want to of course.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

truant said:


> I wonder if there's a connection, though, (I'm just spitballing here) between that feeling of regret and how attractive to others one is in general? I've been undesirable to basically everyone my entire life, so perhaps it triggers a sympathetic response? *I feel guilty because I know what it's like to be told over and over (and over) again that one isn't attractive.* But if you've been attractive to others your whole life you may assume that the experience of others is essentially like your own and that there is no reason to feel regret for your lack of attraction because someone else will come along and find them attractive anyway. *If that's true, then, on average, the less attractive one is, the more guilty one will feel about having preferences.* (Subject to all the usual disclaimers about exceptions, etc.)


Yep. :/

I almost typed it in my previous post, but didn't because you're in more of a position to state this than I am. (I hope that doesn't come across as offensive. ops ) But what I was thinking was, how can someone as undesirable as I am possibly be justified in having _preferences_? Yet I have them anyway. :/

Same goes with platonic friendships, I feel so much guilt that I have preferences in friends when it's not like people are lining up to befriend me, if I were "truly lonely" then I should "take what I can get." Yet I can't. I even tried, and it never worked.

That's why it's best nobody's attracted to me, then I can't let them down if I don't return the feeling. Doesn't mean I'm not lonely, though.


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## doe deer (Oct 9, 2016)

no. i suppose i could feel guilty about them because i don't fit most people's preferences either but i can't change how i feel.


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

truant said:


> I agree with all of this. _But I still feel bad._ Because I can see that people are miserable and I don't want to contribute to their misery by not being attracted to them. (Even though they're not attracted to me....) If I have very conventional tastes, and they don't fit those tastes, I'm just one more person driving one more nail into the coffin of their self-esteem.
> 
> I agree with what you're saying, though. It's not my fault that I have the preferences that I have (though there are people who argue otherwise; viz my comments re internalized homophobia), and it's up to them to find some way to deal with it (and there are people who argue otherwise), but it doesn't change the fact that I might _regret_ that my preferences make them feel this way.
> 
> I wonder if there's a connection, though, (I'm just spitballing here) between that feeling of regret and how attractive to others one is in general? I've been undesirable to basically everyone my entire life, so perhaps it triggers a sympathetic response? I feel guilty because I know what it's like to be told over and over (and over) again that one isn't attractive. But if you've been attractive to others your whole life you may assume that the experience of others is essentially like your own and that there is no reason to feel regret for your lack of attraction because someone else will come along and find them attractive anyway. If that's true, then, on average, the less attractive one is, the more guilty one will feel about having preferences. (Subject to all the usual disclaimers about exceptions, etc.)


I guess I see it differently. People are upset about being unattractive because we live in a society where, like I said, rejection is an insult. Unattractive automatically equals lesser, unworthy, and deserving of scorn and mockery. It's a society that devotes entire websites to it.

I don't feel I've ever been attractive. I was an ugly duckling in high school, so I was rarely approached except as a joke. As an adult, I'm still not approached in real-life. I'm plain, and I don't like the spotlight. I hate everything people want me to like in order to be "attractive" as a woman, ranging from drunk parties to chasing an ambitious career.

Just not wanting someone, or not being wanted... well, I can't find much to complain about in that. People can still love someone, and respect them, and treat them well while not finding them attractive. That kind of common bond and love between people is what I try to value, although sometimes it's easier said than done.

I grew up being treated like the scum of the earth by my step family, even stolen from, with a mother who wouldn't remove me from that situation. My happiness and safety simply did not matter enough for her to stop excusing it. So I greatly value simply being loved and protected by friends, and treated as competent and worthy at the workplace.

My own preferences are so rare that I've literally only met a handful of people who fit them in recent years. One is 44, married with two kids. Another is 29 and in a long-term, serious relationship. The third is 28 and lives hundreds of miles away, but is single. Met one woman who's 44 and poly, not sure if there's anything between us.


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## kageri (Oct 2, 2014)

I will feel guilty when most other people quit having unrealistic expectations too. Everyone does it. That's another point where dating experience helps. If all you do is watch tv and day dream about relationships you get a little rigid in your expectations. Actually dating you start to find there are things you like in people who don't completely meet your ideals and it all kind of takes a back seat. You can fall in love and live happily with someone that doesn't meet the ideal you made up in your head. It's sort of like separating movies from reality. You can wish something in a movie was real but you know it's not and you can see the potential negatives if it was and be plenty happy with reality in many cases. Of course there are some things you will always wish for, especially if you are in a bad situation or really unhappy about the details of your life. Most you can accept don't work that way. That's also not to say there aren't uncompromising points when looking for a partner but it's likely not everything in your head you think would be the perfect person is necessary to have. It's not settling like some would say. It's just more what I was saying about accepting reality. People are not perfect and trying to find perfect will just leave you alone when you could be happy with a lot of people who aren't perfect. I see a lot of people on here get standard tv presented women stuck in their head as the only thing that is acceptable. Again actually getting experience kind of breaks that rigid thinking since you learn some things don't matter as much as you thought and you can be perfectly happy without an internal fantasy for a relationship. If you can't accept not being very strict about what you want then you have to accept it will take more effort and time to find the right person or that it might never happen. Then you have to consider what you really do want or need and if it's more important than what you could find for a relationship.


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## euphoria04 (May 8, 2012)

I don't know, I guess I don't understand. Isn't showing interest in any person a means of testing the water, given that you don't know how they will respond? Granted, it may be true that your tastes might be a little more out there and therefore harder to find someone compatible, but there's always a risk that someone will react to your advances/preferences with disgust (goes for anyone). If you're shutting away all those preferences to make others feel better, then you're just being unfair to yourself rather than to others.

I don't see anything wrong with testing the waters, and if you get the vibe that they're getting uncomfortable you back off (and obviously hinting at the preferences without directly spelling them out could save a bit of awkwardness). I don't see that as morally wrong and I don't think it's your job to save these people from their own insecurities because you've accepted them for who they are, and they haven't; it's their job to work on their own insecurities.

I have a gay friend who has made numerous passes at me in the past, and yes it made me uncomfortable, but I didn't hold it against him beyond putting up a few boundaries. The only thing that lingered about it for me was that he didn't let up when I made it clear I wasn't interested like that. Not taking no for an answer is obviously crossing the line.

edited to say that I wouldn't ever want the friend of mine to feel bad/guilty about what he did, he took a chance, it didn't work out, it happens, life goes on.


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## AllTheSame (Mar 19, 2016)

Moxi said:


> I guess I see it differently. People are upset about being unattractive because we live in a society where, like I said, rejection is an insult. Unattractive automatically equals lesser, unworthy, and deserving of scorn and mockery. It's a society that devotes entire websites to it.
> 
> I don't feel I've ever been attractive. I was an ugly duckling in high school, so I was rarely approached except as a joke. As an adult, I'm still not approached in real-life. I'm plain, and I don't like the spotlight. I hate everything people want me to like in order to be "attractive" as a woman, ranging from drunk parties to chasing an ambitious career.
> 
> ...


 I agree, but in a way, also....I think it's all very subjective. Ffs. My roommate in college tried to hook me up with a girl once that (I'm sorry) I just would have nothing, nothing to do with, I wasn't attracted to her at all. And it wasn't a joke lol....I just wasn't attracted to her. She was very attractive, btw, but just not my type and not to me. She was five foot four I guess and blond, hazel brown eyes, probably a 34-26-34, and on top of it she drove a mustang. She was very good looking, and had some very attractive traits but there were some things about her that I found out about after hanging out with her for a little bit that really, really turned me off. I'd be more than happy to get into it, but....does it really matter lol? It's all subjective anyway. My friend thought I was crazy btw. I'm more than willing to go into why I found her unattractive. But why does it matter? It's subjective, what's attractive to you is not necessarily what's attractive to me. At all.

Define "plain". Seriously. You don't have to like drunk parties or want an ambitious career in order to be attractive. I don't think that defines what's attractive. Does my opinion count for nothing lol? I mean, I'm sure I'm not the only guy that thinks that way. Do you have proof that 100% of the male population, 3.5 or so billion guys on the planet all think that way?

To a certain extent, you define yourself. By your own definitions. You set your own limitations. If you decide you're not beautiful because a few douchebags have told you that you're not beautiful, then....you are setting your own limitations. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been approached by females lol....one just happened the other day, though I don't even count that as being "approached" I think she may have been kidding, Idk. And I'm sure there are guys that get approached by women ALL the time, ffs. I'm not one of them. But that doesn't define who I am. It doesn't mean I'm labeled as "ugly" lol, I'm labeled that way only if I give myself that label. Everyone is beautiful 

Now let's see how many people I just pissed off by saying "everyone is beautiful". Again.


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## OtterlyAbsurd (Jan 25, 2017)

I think most of my guilt stems from the conflict between my fundamentalist Christian upbringing, and my views and sexuality now. When I try to think about my preferences logically, I don't think I _should_ be feeling guilty over any of them, though.


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

AllTheSame said:


> I agree, but in a way, also....I think it's all very subjective. Ffs. My roommate in college tried to hook me up with a girl once that (I'm sorry) I just would have nothing, nothing to do with, I wasn't attracted to her at all. And it wasn't a joke lol....I just wasn't attracted to her. She was very attractive, btw, but just not my type and not to me. She was five foot four I guess and blond, hazel brown eyes, probably a 34-26-34, and on top of it she drove a mustang. She was very good looking, and had some very attractive traits but there were some things about her that I found out about after hanging out with her for a little bit that really, really turned me off. I'd be more than happy to get into it, but....does it really matter lol? It's all subjective anyway. My friend thought I was crazy btw. I'm more than willing to go into why I found her unattractive. But why does it matter? It's subjective, what's attractive to you is not necessarily what's attractive to me. At all.
> 
> Define "plain". Seriously. You don't have to like drunk parties or want an ambitious career in order to be attractive. I don't think that defines what's attractive. Does my opinion count for nothing lol? I mean, I'm sure I'm not the only guy that thinks that way. Do you have proof that 100% of the male population, 3.5 or so billion guys on the planet all think that way?
> 
> ...


Your opinion counts, but individual preferences easily get overwhelmed when you're looking online or just trying to meet someone new. I see a lot of desires and people who are nothing like me, so all of those subjective likes and dislikes don't wind up making it easier.

It's discouraging when the people you _do _wind up trying aren't ready for a relationship, or have such severe anxiety or depression that they can't function in a relationship. It's just the consistent failure and the echo chamber of practically opposite opinions and personalities that depresses me.

Good luck being a 28-year-old woman and finding someone who thinks you're fantastic because you don't drink or do drugs, dislike parties, dress modestly, and want to spend a lot of time at home doing creative hobbies, playing video games, and caring for a spouse while working an unimpressive but socially beneficial job. While being hard-headed and talkative, not meek and shy.

You might not see it that as plain and undesirable, but you're also an older guy with kids. Which is the most common demographic that I like and who thinks I'm anything other than a prude and a bore and a weirdo.


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

Never have, but my preferences are pretty "traditional" manly men, taller preferred though I'm pretty flexible on it, facial hair very much preferred, almost mandatory (dark hair, light doesn't matter, generally the more the better lol. Think vikings.) 

I have been guilted for liking different races though (apparently black women should only like black men,) but what can I say I'm an international lover. White, black, yellow, brown it's all good to me. Be attractive to me, have good chemistry, treat me well and I'm game.

On second thought, though it may seem from my preferences I have a lot of choice, my personality preferences and who I have chemistry with is pretty rare. So at the end of the day I still end up liking very few men . Booo. Wish I had more options.


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## AllTheSame (Mar 19, 2016)

Moxi said:


> Your opinion counts, but individual preferences easily get overwhelmed when you're looking online or just trying to meet someone new. I see a lot of desires and people who are nothing like me, so all of those subjective likes and dislikes don't wind up making it easier.
> 
> It's discouraging when the people you _do _wind up trying aren't ready for a relationship, or have such severe anxiety or depression that they can't function in a relationship. It's just the consistent failure and the echo chamber of practically opposite opinions and personalities that depresses me.
> 
> ...


I understand. You seem like you're pretty empathetic, so I'm sure I don't have to explain how it is being a 46 year old, twice-divorced father of three teenaged kids....looking for....anyone woman that's just even willing to date me or give me a second look, ffs.

I'm the dating world's joke. I feel like no woman, zero women out there even take me seriously lol. (If you find that hard to believe try being a single, 46 year old, twice divorced man and asking women out....try actually doing that).

I hear what you're saying though. It does seem like the whole world wants someone (male or female) who parties, who is a social butterfly, who talks loudly and with authority and never shuts up, who is ready to be at the next date, party, social whatever...and there are people who are just not ready for relationships. I get that too. I know people who cannot take care of themselves that are ready to throw themselves into a relationship, headfirst. I know a guy that's doing that right now lmao.

Fwiw.....there are a lot of guys out there I think that do appreciate things other than.....loud, obnoxious party girls. And....they're not all 46 years old, like me lmao. There are good guys out there, and I know you know this, I'm just stating the obvious. Btw....just as an afterthought....that's one of the things that turned me off about the girl...from the guy that tried to hook me up with the 5'4", 34-26-34 in college.....she wouldn't shut the ***** up. She was a party girl. And that was (and still is) just a huge turn off to me lol.


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

AllTheSame said:


> I understand. You seem like you're pretty empathetic, so I'm sure I don't have to explain how it is being a 46 year old, twice-divorced father of three teenaged kids....looking for....anyone woman that's just even willing to date me or give me a second look, ffs.
> 
> I'm the dating world's joke. I feel like no woman, zero women out there even take me seriously lol. (If you find that hard to believe try being a single, 46 year old, twice divorced man and asking women out....try actually doing that).
> 
> ...


I would date older guys with kids (they just tend to be married, and I'm no homewrecker), but I do know what you're saying. Even if there are women out there who don't see it as a barrier, a lot will and it's tedious to sort through the people who don't want you looking for the few who do.

Even though I don't see rejection as personal or something to be ashamed of, hearing "no" or disinterest all the time is deflating. There's no getting around that.

Like, I hate small talk. I'd honestly fall in love over a lengthy debate. I adore strong people with strong opinions when they're not out to turn puppies into taquitos or something messed up.

I can _feel _people's eyes start to glaze over even online when I try to deepen conversations on a subject. Dating made me realize that most people engage in their interests on a very surface level or only occasionally.

People who like playing music say they haven't done so in a while. People who like writing write one or two stories a year, and have never attempted to publish. People who like gaming play Overwatch a few times a month.

Mine is not a personality that's easy to match when I feel intensely about everything I do, and spend very little time on "Netflix and chill".


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

roxslide said:


> I think I like more feminine/less masculine males because I am interested in switching up the typical dynamic in heterosexual relationships. I don't need or want to be in power all the time but power play (and more explicit stuff along that line lol) is definitely something I have always been into. For whatever reason, I think I subconsciously reason that the guys I like might be more open to that sort of thing. I definitely have reservations about sharing it with people (because like you said, it can repulse some guys) but again, I don't feel really guilty about it, maybe kind of embarrassed. I've literally thought about this stuff/went for that type since I hit puberty really.


Given the variety of sexual proclivities I doubt you would have to limit your search to feminine men to find someone who would be into that kind of thing, I hear some heterosexual men love to "receive gifts".



roxslide said:


> What I feel guilty about is that I think my expectations from other people on a personal level is too high. I feel like I am very hard on people sometimes (which is probably more to do with how I feel about myself) and eventually find others intolerable and jump ship, when I think a more balanced/healthy person would give them another chance or it would never even occur to them in the first place.


So do you think you're self sabotaging?

Personally, my standards aren't _high_ they're just _different_, different in a way that means they may be unrealistic (time will tell as far as that is concerned). Trying to force myself to want what most other people seem to wouldn't make me balanced/healthy, it would make me miserable (even more so).



truant said:


> I wonder if there's a connection, though, (I'm just spitballing here) between that feeling of regret and how attractive to others one is in general? I've been undesirable to basically everyone my entire life, so perhaps it triggers a sympathetic response? I feel guilty because I know what it's like to be told over and over (and over) again that one isn't attractive. But if you've been attractive to others your whole life you may assume that the experience of others is essentially like your own and that there is no reason to feel regret for your lack of attraction because someone else will come along and find them attractive anyway. If that's true, then, on average, the less attractive one is, the more guilty one will feel about having preferences. (Subject to all the usual disclaimers about exceptions, etc.)


Interesting, you could have a point in some instances but both conclusions would be irrational. I've never really understood the tendency for people to assume that their individual experiences are reflective of everyone else's, it just seems silly to me, it always has (it strikes me as somewhat solipsistic).

My views about how likely someone else is to be found attractive would be based entirely on them and how others generally view whatever they have to offer, my personal opinion would be largely irrelevant.



Barry bin Laden said:


> What's the difference between a sociospath and a psychopath?
> 
> That's not a rhetorical question btw, I'm genuinely curious.


The terms seem to be used interchangeably most of the time but from what I can gather psychopaths are _prepared_ to hurt others to benefit themselves and will feel no guilt but sociopaths actively _like_ doing it.



Moxi said:


> Good luck being a 28-year-old woman and finding someone who thinks you're fantastic because you don't drink or do drugs, dislike parties, dress modestly, and want to spend a lot of time at home doing creative hobbies, playing video games, and caring for a spouse while working an unimpressive but socially beneficial job. While being hard-headed and talkative, not meek and shy.


Unless you're exclusively attracted to extroverts yourself I wouldn't have thought that list would cause you that many problems. The only things that would even be potential negatives would be hard-headed (would make me wonder if you don't listen) and talkative (makes me wonder if you're the type that never shuts up), and even then there would be other guys that would be willing to go along with that.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

kageri said:


> I will feel guilty when most other people quit having unrealistic expectations too. Everyone does it. That's another point where dating experience helps. If all you do is watch tv and day dream about relationships you get a little rigid in your expectations. Actually dating you start to find there are things you like in people who don't completely meet your ideals and it all kind of takes a back seat. You can fall in love and live happily with someone that doesn't meet the ideal you made up in your head. It's sort of like separating movies from reality. You can wish something in a movie was real but you know it's not and you can see the potential negatives if it was and be plenty happy with reality in many cases. Of course there are some things you will always wish for, especially if you are in a bad situation or really unhappy about the details of your life. Most you can accept don't work that way. That's also not to say there aren't uncompromising points when looking for a partner but it's likely not everything in your head you think would be the perfect person is necessary to have. It's not settling like some would say. It's just more what I was saying about accepting reality. People are not perfect and trying to find perfect will just leave you alone when you could be happy with a lot of people who aren't perfect. I see a lot of people on here get standard tv presented women stuck in their head as the only thing that is acceptable. Again actually getting experience kind of breaks that rigid thinking since you learn some things don't matter as much as you thought and you can be perfectly happy without an internal fantasy for a relationship. If you can't accept not being very strict about what you want then you have to accept it will take more effort and time to find the right person or that it might never happen. Then you have to consider what you really do want or need and if it's more important than what you could find for a relationship.


I would agree that the stricter/rarer your standards are the less likely it is that they will be met. However, the implication that having things you're not willing to compromise on is equivalent to wanting a internal fantasy of a perfect partner is a bit of a stretch. I don't think there's necessarily anything "wrong" with someone just because they aren't attracted to what seems to be on offer, though that will obviously lead to them being lonely. I think that would even be true if they do settle for reality, there's no shortage of lonely people in relationships.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Chris S W said:


> No I don't ever feel guilty about my preferences, but I can understand why you do Persephone. Maybe I would as well (in an irrational way) if I were attracted the way you are. But I don't think you should feel guilty or bad about it, because it isn't like you would choose to inflict all of the said preferences that you find attractive on to someone if you could right? You would like to find someone who already has these traits or circumstances. Therefore you have nothing to feel bad about. If anything I think it's nice that you would find someone "looking so small and fragile, and shivering a little" attractive seeing as you want to be protective of them.


No I wouldn't want them to change who they are for me or how they present themselves. Also I'm pretty sure part of the reason I'm attracted to that style of presentation must be because it reflects things about their personality/interests/degree of masculinity/femininity etc if they've chosen to present that way. That's not really concious but probably related.

Having said that, I'm more open minded about traits outside of physical appearence like personality to a degree if I like the way they look. I have some pretty consistent turn offs but other stuff is slightly more variable.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> Interesting, you could have a point in some instances but both conclusions would be irrational. I've never really understood the tendency for people to assume that their individual experiences are reflective of everyone else's, it just seems silly to me, it always has (it strikes me as somewhat solipsistic).
> 
> My views about how likely someone else is to be found attractive would be based entirely on them and how others generally view whatever they have to offer, my personal opinion would be largely irrelevant.


I honestly believe the tendency to project one's own experience onto others is the single most disruptive (and destructive) force in human interaction. If the other person is not exactly like oneself in terms of values, feelings, beliefs, etc., then there is a tendency to assume that the other person is mistaken, stupid, lying, exaggerating, overreacting, crazy, perverse, attention-seeking, etc., because that is the only way the difference between what you believe/feel/value and what they believe/feel/value can be explained. "The only way I would believe/feel/value what they believe/feel/value is if I were stupid/crazy/lying/etc." It's like there's an automatic unconscious reflex to resolve the cognitive dissonance created by dissenting opinions by reframing the other person's experience in a way that invalidates it. And, of course, if it _does_ agree with your own, well then, they're a fine, upstanding fellow with a good head on their shoulders. :grin2:

Having given the matter more thought, it occurs to me that being routinely overlooked or rejected may alternatively lead to the opposite result as well: a more rigid sense of entitlement for maintaining one's standards. As opposed to my feeling of guilt and empathy, another person in my situation may decide "Well, if they're not going to feel bad about it, then neither am I." This may lead them to pursue unrealistically high standards and refuse to settle for anything less. Again, just thinking out loud here.

Attractiveness is mostly a matter of tacit social consensus. Individual opinions about the attractiveness of any one person (physical or otherwise) are fairly useless outside of helping you make your own decision about who to date/not date. But despite the subjective factor, which occurs at the individual level, there is a high degree of statistical consistency over large demographics. It's the cumulative interactions over the course of a lifetime that shape one's experience, not the subjective preferences of any one individual. The lived experience of an attractive person is drastically different from the lived experience of an unattractive person, which is why platitudes like "everyone is beautiful" are experienced as dismissive and invalidating to people who are not considered attractive by most people.

I feel empathy for people who are routinely rejected or ridiculed because I know what it's like. But if you're used to having a steady supply of partners, you're not likely to experience much if any empathy for people whose experience is different. It simply seems incomprehensible to you that anyone should struggle that much, so you rationalize their experience in various ways to dismiss it: you blame their lack of success on their standards or character, or assume they're doing something wrong, as if attractive people didn't also have standards and character flaws and bungle their interactions with others. People get blamed for something which is largely outside their control, feelings get hurt, and then long forum threads appear on SAS, growing like digital tumors.


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## scooby (Jun 24, 2009)

Not really. No one even cares what my preferences are specifically. I don't really talk about my preferences, so it doesn't have any effect on anyone. I'm just one person anyway, there are plenty of other people who will make up for my lack of preference in certain categories.

Now, what I _do_ actually feel guilt over is having interest in people in general. Like in the sense that I don't feel worthy or deserving enough to seek out people, undeserving of or not good enough to even bother. At the same time, I'm completely aware of that notion being nonsense, because it's human nature to want and seek out companionship, and there is and have been billions and billions of people who found that.

I try not to dwell on these things these days, as I don't want to fall back into the depression spiral. I'm doing too well right now to go back.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

truant said:


> I honestly believe the tendency to project one's own experience onto others is the single most disruptive (and destructive) force in human interaction. If the other person is not exactly like oneself in terms of values, feelings, beliefs, etc., then there is a tendency to assume that the other person is mistaken, stupid, lying, exaggerating, overreacting, crazy, perverse, attention-seeking, etc., because that is the only way the difference between what you believe/feel/value and what they believe/feel/value can be explained. "The only way I would believe/feel/value what they believe/feel/value is if I were stupid/crazy/lying/etc." It's like there's an automatic unconscious reflex to resolve the cognitive dissonance created by dissenting opinions by reframing the other person's experience in a way that invalidates it. And, of course, if it _does_ agree with your own, well then, they're a fine, upstanding fellow with a good head on their shoulders. :grin2:


I've always said it was self delusion but it could be argued that this is a subset of that anyway. It's actually one of the main reasons I don't tend to connect to people, once it becomes clear they are unable to see things from another person's POV I tend to automatically withdraw. Unfortunately it seems to be getting even worse these days, maybe I'm just becoming a grumpy old man.:laugh:



truant said:


> Having given the matter more thought, it occurs to me that being routinely overlooked or rejected may alternatively lead to the opposite result as well: a more rigid sense of entitlement for maintaining one's standards. As opposed to my feeling of guilt and empathy, another person in my situation may decide *"Well, if they're not going to feel bad about it, then neither am I."* This may lead them to pursue unrealistically high standards and refuse to settle for anything less. Again, just thinking out loud here.


Isn't looking into people's minds against forum rules?



truant said:


> I feel empathy for people who are routinely rejected or ridiculed because I know what it's like. But if you're used to having a steady supply of partners, you're not likely to experience much if any empathy for people whose experience is different. It simply seems incomprehensible to you that anyone should struggle that much, so you rationalize their experience in various ways to dismiss it: you blame their lack of success on their standards or character, or assume they're doing something wrong, as if attractive people didn't also have standards and character flaws and bungle their interactions with others. People get blamed for something which is largely outside their control, feelings get hurt, and then long forum threads appear on SAS, growing like digital tumors.


At this point I probably sound like a broken record but more empathy would make this world a much better place. My personal philosophy is that there are 2 types of empathy, intellectual empathy and coincidental empathy (there's also the definition about people experiencing emotions vicariously but I doubt many, if any, people actually experience this, so I consider it negligible). Most people only seem to have coincidental empathy meaning they only understand what they have personal experience of (their understanding is coincidental) but intellectual empathy is what I think would be more useful, the ability to understand things you've never experienced as a result of thinking, listening etc. Unfortunately this seems to be in incredibly short supply, probably because having it means surrendering any certainty you may feel and having to admit that you _might_ be wrong about everything (which is probably frightening for most people).


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

Moxi said:


> I can _feel _people's eyes start to glaze over even online when I try to deepen conversations on a subject.


I know _that_ feeling all too well... :frown2:



> ...most people engage in their interests on a very surface level or only occasionally.
> 
> People who like playing music say they haven't done so in a while. People who like writing write one or two stories a year, and have never attempted to publish. People who like gaming play Overwatch a few times a month.
> 
> Mine is not a personality that's easy to match when I feel intensely about everything I do, and spend very little time on "Netflix and chill".


This is why I can't even connect with people with shared interests. They're never as "into" those things as I am, and they just want to make smalltalk about everyday stuff. Frustrating.

And then they get angry with me for not being "openminded" and "spontaneous."


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## Chris S W (Mar 5, 2017)

Persephone The Dread said:


> No I wouldn't want them to change who they are for me or how they present themselves. Also I'm pretty sure part of the reason I'm attracted to that style of presentation must be because it reflects things about their personality/interests/degree of masculinity/femininity etc if they've chosen to present that way. That's not really concious but probably related.
> 
> Having said that, I'm more open minded about traits outside of physical appearence like personality to a degree if I like the way they look. I have some pretty consistent turn offs but other stuff is slightly more variable.


I see. Well, then there is definitely no need to feel guilty about your preferences. (Just reaffirming, as I know how it can be with that irrational guilt).

BTW I wouldn't have thought being called pretty would be a problem for guys who are pretty as long as they don't have a manly image of themselves. I would take it, and have taken it, as a complement, and I'm sure others would as well, especially if they where make up, and mix and match female/male clothing. So don't don't worry about that


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## Moxi (Nov 24, 2015)

tehuti88 said:


> I know _that_ feeling all too well... :frown2:
> 
> This is why I can't even connect with people with shared interests. They're never as "into" those things as I am, and they just want to make smalltalk about everyday stuff. Frustrating.
> 
> And then they get angry with me for not being "openminded" and "spontaneous."


I know that feeling, although I can typically go along politely. But it doesn't make us friends, and it's not something I'm eager to come back for a second dose of.

When I say I enjoy music, I mean I sit down and work on chords every day. I love Futurama as much as anyone else, but doing nothing but working and coming home to Netflix and beer will rot your brain.



LonelyLurker said:


> Unless you're exclusively attracted to extroverts yourself I wouldn't have thought that list would cause you that many problems. The only things that would even be potential negatives would be hard-headed (would make me wonder if you don't listen) and talkative (makes me wonder if you're the type that never shuts up), and even then there would be other guys that would be willing to go along with that.


Hard-headed as in stubborn. I do listen, but I need to see good evidence for changing a decision or a stance. Or I'm not budging, lol.

Combine it with not really liking small talk, and enjoying lengthy discussion and debate (podcasts are my favorite kind of company some nights), and it's far from a popular personality.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Moxi said:


> Hard-headed as in stubborn. I do listen, but I need to see good evidence for changing a decision or a stance. Or I'm not budging, lol.
> 
> Combine it with not really liking small talk, and enjoying lengthy discussion and debate (podcasts are my favorite kind of company some nights), and it's far from a popular personality.


I assume you don't actually mean stubborn as that would fall into the "won't listen to reason" category, but if I understand you correctly that just became the most attractive quality from the list you provided, why? Because I've just learned that I'm sometimes "hard headed" myself :laugh:, although it sounds like I'm probably a little more likely to compromise than you are (then again my reason for compromising would be reason based so that might not be the case).

Ditto on the whole small talk debate thing, and yes it appears to be an acquired taste, I've yet to meet anyone who seems to have acquired it unfortunately. I could probably find a woman that finds it intriguing for a little while (especially if she's used to men falling over themselves desperate for her approval and never challenging her) but I don't think many (if any) would stick around when they realise that it's not a temporary act, that's who I am all of the time. I analyse and break things down so that I can understand them and there are _no_ subjects that are off limits to me.

Hopefully I'm wrong and there are people that actually value that quality, but if there are they seem to be keeping themselves well hidden. I sometimes wonder if I've met plenty of people like me but we were all forcing ourselves to make small talk so that we could find a place in society, but as a result never found each other.


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## cybernaut (Jul 30, 2010)

Not at all.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

No. I try not to feel guilty for things I have almost no control over.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

splendidbob said:


> No. I try not to feel guilty for things I have almost no control over.


But I have almost no control over whether or not I feel guilty. :crying:


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Not guilty really but life would be much easier if I were attracted to men that most would consider ugly.


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## Fangirl96 (Apr 13, 2015)

Yeah i do. I have had the same type for like a decade and even though theres been some changes with my preferences, its been very small ones and in general it has always stayed the same. And i have never been attracted to anyone too different from my preference. That is seen like an awful thing these days. You're supposed to be attracted to EVERYONE, lol. Not that sjw rules would even make my preferences change bc well i cant control that, but it does make me feel guilty and like a picky b*tch. Its not like i date anyways so it doesnt even matter but oh well


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Fangirl96 said:


> Yeah i do. I have had the same type for like a decade and even though theres been some changes with my preferences, its been very small ones and in general it has always stayed the same. And i have never been attracted to anyone too different from my preference. That is seen like an awful thing these days. You're supposed to be attracted to EVERYONE...


Don't let them make you feel guilty for being human, you can like whatever you like (notices posters age, subtracts 10...) unless it's that, you can't like that. :laugh:


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Fangirl96 said:


> Yeah i do. I have had the same type for like a decade and even though theres been some changes with my preferences, its been very small ones and in general it has always stayed the same. And i have never been attracted to anyone too different from my preference. That is seen like an awful thing these days. You're supposed to be attracted to EVERYONE, lol. Not that sjw rules would even make my preferences change bc well i cant control that, but it does make me feel guilty and like a picky b*tch. Its not like i date anyways so it doesnt even matter but oh well


People take it personally yeah. They assume you find the same things hot that everyone else does and that it makes them ugly, yet I've lost count of the number of guys I've been told are hot and I've just not been interested.


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## JohnDoe26 (Jun 6, 2012)

It sounds like your taste in men would be considered common in South Korea. 

I feel bad/guilty in the sense that all of my preferences are out of my league.


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## Explorer5 (May 25, 2016)

I do, I mean sometimes I feel like I will never be accepted for them, and that everyone thinks they are "too much to ask".

I am mostly attracted to women who have a very large part of themselves that has never emotionally grown up. What I mean is girls who look at the world, especially nature, with intense innocent wonder, who are at least a bit hyperactive or even manic, and who are playful to the point where I could even play on a playground with them sometimes. I also prefer cute, childlike faces.

Most importantly, I also feel I would not be sexually satisfied with a girl who is experienced with the opposite sex, romantically and/or sexually, to the point where she has already satisfied that childlike curiosity about boys. I expect a girl to see starting a relationship as a journey into uncharted territory, and be all excited about it, like a kid. I kind of expect that a girl will have had as isolated a childhood as I did (by choice).

I have no interest whatsoever in playing a "daddy" role--I want essentially a kindred spirit to myself. I'm like a Peter Pan looking for my Tiger Lily. Unfortunately, I feel that our culture looks down on such relationships, even finds looking for these kinds of girls a bit creepy. The few girls I've had crushes on were not actually children in biological age, they were just adults who retained those qualities--or at least seemed to.


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## Cool Ice Dude55 (Jan 7, 2014)

I mean kinda. I'm more attracted to men of my own race. But I'm not racist at all, but I cant help it...I just am. It harks back to our tribal days and all that. I can be attracted to other races, but this usually happens when I've got to know their personaility.

I also couldn't date a fat person. It couldn't work and I guess I feel bad but whatever.

I also don't like the idea of dating someone that has English as a second language because I speak in alot of slang and i speak really quickly and i'm worried they wouldnt catch what i'm saying. but i'm not xenophobic at awl!!


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## solasum (Nov 17, 2008)

Yeah. How is it a good idea to give someone a chance when I'm not interested at the start?


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## Uniqueme (Mar 22, 2017)

No because its not like I can change them. I have a right to happiness in a relationship or to chose not to have one


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