# why does God allow suffering



## justpassinby (Oct 21, 2008)

I firmly believe that God does NOT make people sick; and God does NOT want people to suffer. We can see this by looking at the life of Jesus. He healed the sick. He CURED people. He did not make them sick!

Why, then, are so many in pain?

There is no good or easy answer when tragedies occur. But to try and understand, we must step back and look at the big picture. God made everything perfect. When man sinned, that perfection was spoiled and all of our environment was tainted. The fact is, we live in a world where evil abounds. It is rampant throughout every aspect of creation. We are subject to the evil actions of sinful people around us. God can and does intervene in some events, but why not others? Only He knows that answer, but the Bible teaches that there will be a time when He will end this world as we know it. In heaven, there will be no more death, sadness, pain, sickness, or suffering of any kind. Below are some thoughts on why I believe God allows us to suffer.

1) *One reason many of us suffer is because we do things that cause us pain*. We don't eat right, so we have heart attacks. We drive carelessly or fast, so we have accidents. We smoke, so we get lung cancer.

2) But what about innocent children who are not responsible for their suffering? Why do they get sick? Maybe it's because we do not live in a perfect world. God intended for us to have perfect bodies, perfect health, and freedom from pain and suffering. The world He created was originally perfect, just as He had planned it. But evil destroyed our perfect world. When sin entered the picture, it brought with it death, pain, and suffering. Don't misunderstand me, people do not suffer because of their own personal sins, necessarily; but because the world is changed because of sin being in the world. Jesus said, "In this world, you will have tribulation." Just as in the case with Job, I believe that evil forces attack us and cause much suffering in an attempt to get people to blame God and turn away from Him.

*In order for God to preserve our rights as individuals (to choose for ourselves), He had to allow us the freedom to sin.* He also had to allow the consequences of our behaviors. That means that He does not normally interfere with things which happen naturally in this world, such as sickness and disease caused by toxins in the environment, accidents as a result of risky behaviors, and natural disasters resulting from changes in the ozone layer, etc. God does not cause these natural consequences, but He does allow them. However, many times, He does intervene miraculously or work even in the worst of situations to bring about something good from them.

3) Why would God allow me to suffer? *Maybe so that I can increase my faith in Him, increase my compassion for others, or be better able to encourage and help other hurting people *(2 Corinthians 1:3-5).

BUT WE DO HAVE HOPE FOR BETTER THINGS:

Though this world is no longer perfect, as God intended it to be; He will create a perfect world for us in heaven where there will no longer be any tears, pain, or suffering; and "death will be swallowed up in victory." Why? Because God will ultimately get rid of everything that is not HIS. Suffering, sin, pain, tears and death are not HIS.

We have HOPE that all suffering will be relieved when we go to spend eternity with God. BUT, this promise of eternal bliss is only for those who know, serve, and love Him.

God is not the cause of any suffering in this world, Satan is! To blame God for evil is foolish, because it actually causes us to follow the one who IS truly responsible for pain and problems.

Why doesn't God cure our bodies? *Maybe because our souls are of greater importance to him than our bodies are!* Though He cares about our physical suffering, healing our soul is more urgent because it is the soul that lives forever. Our relationship with God is what determines WHERE that soul spends eternity. It is my prayer that all who suffer here on earth will seek God and TRUE healing (of the soul) that He offers, so that they can all gather in Heaven where there will be no more sickness and pain. Hopefully we will all meet there for the feast that God has promised to those who enter through the narrow gate.

In this world, bad things happen even to good people. Those who have a personal relationship with God are better able to cope with whatever happens in their lives. We can live without fear, even though we do not know what the future holds IF we know the one who holds the future in His hands. When we discover the great love God has for us, we can let go of our fear. Psalm 27:1 says "The Lord is my salvation. Whom shall I fear?" Jesus triumphed over death, and He alone can save us from eternal death. He can also see us through all the trials of life and bring us safely to heaven!

No one can comfort the depths of our sorrows except God. Read His promises in the Bible, and your heart will be encouraged. If you fail to see Him as the only source of hope presented in the pages of the Hugs and HOPE web site, then I have failed in my effort. If you don't know Him, but you want to known Him, I would love to introduce Him to you!

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT SUFFERING:

Romans 8:18: "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth being compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us!"

Romans 8:17: "We must also share in his suffering, if we are to share in his glory."

John 16:33: "In this world you will have tribulation. But be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world." (Or as another translations puts it: "Take courage, I've deprived it of its power to harm and conquer you.")

James 5:13: "Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray."

1 Peter 4:12: "Do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you. But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing." And verse 19 says: "Let those who suffer ... entrust their souls to a faithful Creator. . ."


----------



## Anxiety75 (Feb 10, 2004)

Adam and Eve sinned so it passed on this imperfection to humans. Satan later raised a challenge before God. He said that people could rule and be successful without God's guidance-so God allowed him to prove it. Now look at the sad situation in the world. Are most people being guided by God? No, for they lack the love reflected by Christ Jesus himself who set the perfect example of love for neighbor. How can people kill and consider themselves "Christians"?

For example: In a sense God is the teacher and Satan was the "student". Let's suppose Satan said "Teacher, I have a better way and I can teach people a better way to do something than you can!"

Then God said, Okay prove it because I want people to know for sure that what you teach will eventually cause problems and it will turn out bad. It is just a matter of time, so go ahead."

(Destroying the serpent, Satan right then would not have proved anything and it would possibly have caused peple to believe that maybe ppl could do better without God.) The angels are also involved in this meaning it concerns them as it does people.

Over thousands of years, it is evident that Satan's way of doing things has turned out faulty for everyone. Wars, crime and other violence being caused by him has proved that he cannot rule a successful world. He has made it worse.

God promises to destroy Satan and bring a new world on earth as it is in heaven. (Don't forget the Lord's prayer.)
Remember in Genesis what he said about the promised seed Jesus(Satan would bruise Jesus in the "heel" and then Jesus would bruise Satan in the head meaning the head is a more serious injury which would end in his permanent destruction.(Genesis 3:15.)
Satan really does rule this earth.

God is on trial and wants to clear his name of all reproach. Like anyone on trial, he has to have his name cleared based on evidence. Satan has to be proved guilty based on evidence too. This is not a trial in a literal courtroom. It all takes place among God and Jesus in heaven. No human can stop Satan.

If you want to know the main reason for suffering it is Satan.The rest is mankind's lack of reliance toward God. This is not to say that ALL people don't rely on God. Sincere people rely on God everyday.

_'He is healing the broken-hearted ones and is binding up their painful spots.'_ Psalm 147:3



> Just as in the case with Job, I believe that evil forces attack us and cause much suffering in an attempt to get people to blame God and turn away from Him.


*I just wanted to say you hit the nail on the head on this one!
*

Let me suggest some articles based on the Bible. They are not any of my opinions. I think people need to know because this confuses people. Let these articles help you to understand.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/200611/article_02.htm

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20030501/article_01.htm

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20040322/article_01.htm

http://www.watchtower.org/e/200611/article_01.htm


----------



## Anxiety75 (Feb 10, 2004)

I don't mean to get over preachy, but there in Job it shows the Devil was walking about in the earth and not in some fiery pit. It says at Job 1:7 God asks Satan, _"Where do you come from?" At that Satan answered, "From roving about in the earth and walking about in it._

Then it talks about how he had attacked Job one who was "blameless" and "upright".

At that point Satan was taunting God and saying that Job only served him because he gave him so much, a home, cattle, etc.

Then he said that Job would turn against him if he withdrew his blessings and let Satan cause him problems-anything except not to kill him.

Can't we be tested in the same way today? Thats the point he was making.


----------



## screwjack (Dec 19, 2008)

I've always liked the story of Job "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" God is free to judge his creation "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have understanding"

Maybe i'm weird, I don't believe in the divinity of the bible but enjoy scripture. I agree with the core message anyways i'm not trying to debate anyone "Why me?" and "Why do good things happen to bad people?" is something that us SAers continuely worry about and it saddens me that many lose their minds and hearts to it without thinking it through.


----------



## justpassinby (Oct 21, 2008)

Thanks for contributing to this thread! 

For myself personally, I find it better to openly embrace suffering, and reinforce my faith by praying, so i'm not blind sided by events that are naturally going to happen, sickness, death, accidents, you name it, its all going to happen at some point. 

Reading the bible, studying the stories and developing a personal relationship with god has PROVEN to me, that i'm not alone and that I have strength beyond myself. 

In this world, I feel people try to suppress suffering, numb it or alter their mind states through drugs or entertainment, sort of a "brainwashing" effect to shelter their minds from the inevitable. Then get completely tail spinned when something in life (which is bound to happen)...occurs to "wake them up." Awareness and strength through God has given me comfort and I don't fall to pieces at small stressors anymore.


----------



## socially inept (Mar 6, 2009)

god plays no part in people's suffering.

there are laws to this uniververse and we live by those laws. if we break the laws we face the conseguences and god canot interfear with the consequences cos if he did thn he would take away free will from human beings.

for example if you kill another being then you must face the consequences. a person has free will to choose either to kill someone or not kill someone. if they choose to not kill somebody then there is NO consequences to be faced. but if they choose to kill then they immediately activatethe law of cause and effect , crime and consequence. the momnt they kil they have consequences waiting for them in the future.

the consequences can be anything , it might be a heart attack, divorce , a road accident, cancer. if that person person who killed as to develop cancer years later as a consequence for there actions then that person would be suffering.
now if god entered the equation and cured that persons cancer then god hs took away that persons free will. that person had the free will to either kill or no kill but if god cures he consequence of choosing the bad action then the persons free will hs gone cos it wouldnt matter ifhe chose good or bad cos nothing would happen when you do bad .

there are laws in this world and god does not interfere with these laws. just like the law of gravity is always here, so to is the law of cause and effect. and just like god doesnt interfere with graity he doesnt interfere with caise and effect either


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

^ Well said. I think everything is related to law and their is no magic to ones pain or suffering. Cause and effect are the reasons from a scientific view why things happen for clear reasons. Unless God is pissed at science their may be certain unexplained circumstances no one can solve.


----------



## Anxiety75 (Feb 10, 2004)

Under Pressure said:


> There is no god.


I'm sorry you feel that way. That's exactly what some ppl are lead to believe.
And you don't need proof from the Bible to believe in God. What do you see when you go outside or when you treasure something small and insignificant that really does matter? What about so many things that are intricate in nature as if designed by "someone"? What has led you to believe this and that life is in vain b/c it would be IF there were no God.


----------



## Anxiety75 (Feb 10, 2004)

Yeah like the "cause and effect". What a person does willingly or unwillingly has consequences. It doesn't mean God does it. There's a difference between causing something and *allowing* it.

Example: A mother and her small child are driving on the road when a huge semi truck come barreling through on the wrong side of the road-the driver he's intoxicated-he smashes the car to pieces and the child and mother are killed instantly. Who do you blame? The drunk driver who should *never* be out on the road or the power of God who for some unknown reason wants to take the life of an innocent mother and her daughter.

God is simply NOT responsible for accidents and evil.



socially inept said:


> god plays no part in people's suffering.
> 
> there are laws to this uniververse and we live by those laws. if we break the laws we face the conseguences and god canot interfear with the consequences cos if he did thn he would take away free will from human beings.
> 
> ...


----------



## Thomas Paine (Mar 29, 2008)

If you want a view from a non-Christian - I believe that the reason God causes suffering is fairly simple because without it we wouldn't appreciate non-suffering (happiness). It's also been my experience that people who have been through the most suffering are generally nicer people after it. And then if you look at the big picture - some people have to suffer in order to make other people's lives seem easier.


----------



## screwjack (Dec 19, 2008)

Before this thread is closed for debate i'd like to encourage everyone to read up on the "problem of evil" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_problem_of_evil it makes up for some good philosophical reading.

My biggest problem with the idea of satan/evil is how can it be seperate yet part of Gods plan? This means that ulimately satan is doing Gods work, unless you disconnect your brain and believe that god is beyond human logic which is ok too.


----------



## justpassinby (Oct 21, 2008)

screwjack said:


> My biggest problem with the idea of satan/evil is how can it be seperate yet part of Gods plan? This means that ulimately satan is doing Gods work, unless you disconnect your brain and believe that god is beyond human logic which is ok too.


I couldn't answer as succinctly as I would have liked so I found this, hope it helps:



> God is all powerful. Yet He allows Satan to carry out his deceitful and destructive activities-within certain limits-for a purpose. To understand that purpose, let's begin with an example from the book of Job.
> 
> "One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, 'Where have you come from?' Satan answered the LORD, 'From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.' Then the LORD said to Satan, 'Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.'
> 
> ...


----------



## Thresher V (Apr 20, 2009)

Amazing how so many people can put their faith in fictional beings, no wonder so many people have problems. For those wishing to bombard me with their so-called "proof": I was a follow for many years, many years ago...I know the bible, I know the traditions, and now I know the real truth. I suggest everyone do a little un-biased research to validate your belief....that doesn't mean you seek answers from a religious school or church.


----------



## screwjack (Dec 19, 2008)

justpassinby said:


> I couldn't answer as succinctly as I would have liked so I found this, hope it helps:


Yes the story of Job has helped me reconcile the problem of evil, it's more the idea of Satan being described as a seperate entity from God that I have problems with. I can't really cope with a being that would deny us His light as punishment. But that is my problem and ventures into seperate spirituality from christianity.


----------



## Anxiety75 (Feb 10, 2004)

Why are some so confident that these "fictional'" characters don't exist? That's what the Devil wants ppl to believe. Look at the evil in the world. Look at how it is worsening. It isn't just that mankind just gets greedier, it's Satan's influence. The Bible says Satan blinds the minds of the unbelievers. 
2 Corinthians 4:4

For those who cannot see beyond their nose-the ones who automatically dismiss God/Jesus/Devil as unreal. (See Psalms 10:4)

(Usually it's the, "I can't see what I don't believe.") 
When in reality those who don't believe in God/Jesus/Devil believe in *many* things they can't see.

We can't see a lot but scientists know certain sub-atomic particles exist and the way light works and so forth. They are confident whatever makes things in science work is there but yet to be seen with the naked eye or a microscope.

We think we have the answers? We have not begun to scratch the surface. We are mere human beings with limited capacity compared to the "fictional characters" out there beyond our sight. I dare not challenge God and tell him how to run things or ask him about his sense of justice. Who am I do do that?

I do recommend that people study for themselves not necessarily the Bible but nature, science, stop and look at the small things and the big and you see intellect. Not some empty force that just popped into existence. If there is no God, there would be no life, no nothing. We would not exist.

_For his invisible qualities are *clearly* seen from the world's creation onward because they are *perceived* by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship so that they are *inexcusable.* Romans 1:20

_


Thresher V said:


> Amazing how so many people can put their faith in fictional beings, no wonder so many people have problems. For those wishing to bombard me with their so-called "proof": I was a follow for many years, many years ago...I know the bible, I know the traditions, and now I know the real truth. I suggest everyone do a little un-biased research to validate your belief....that doesn't mean you seek answers from a religious school or church.


----------



## Anxiety75 (Feb 10, 2004)

screwjack said:


> Yes the story of Job has helped me reconcile the problem of evil, it's more the idea of Satan being described as a seperate entity from God that I have problems with. I can't really cope with a being that would deny us His light as punishment. But that is my problem and ventures into seperate spirituality from christianity.


Satan was once an angel (a creation from God) who was good but he began to take pride in himself and became selfish and greedy and wanted his own worship. (He was not called Satan before he disobeyed.) The meaning of "Satan" means "resister".

*"YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. *John 8:44*

Even the Bible says that 1/3 of the angels of heaven disobeyed-

*_*And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; *and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth..*_ Revelation 12:4

Understand that after this angel grew wicked and became Satan he was an enemy of God-*not a collaborator. * He and God do not work together. They are totally opposite. In *no way* part of a single entity.


----------



## Thresher V (Apr 20, 2009)

Don't quote illogical nonsense to me. "Evil" as you call it, is open to interpretation. Is a lion evil for eating a gazelle? Or is a black hole evil for destroying a star? No, merely these are just the way the universe works. If you are going to fire back with the behaviors of man against each other, remember where you are....these behaviors are not of the devil but of faulty personality traits, chemical imbalances, emotional scaring, etc. Why must you theists demonize everything? 

All of your praying and worship has not cured you of your SA ills, have they?


----------



## screwjack (Dec 19, 2008)

Anxiety75 said:


> Understand that after this angel grew wicked and became Satan he was an enemy of God-*not a collaborator. * He and God do not work together. They are totally opposite. In *no way* part of a single entity.


This is where the paradoxes begin and nothing solved because we go into endless repetition. If God is omniscient and the creator/ruler of the universe how can anything not be a part of Him? Nothing works against Him to say otherwise is to doubt His will.

This is why I am not a christian, I enjoy many of the things christianity has to offer but I simply view Jesus/the bible/word of God as metaphor rather than literal truth. From my point of view we are both on the same path just taking different routes. No disrespect to anyone intended, even if you disagree.


----------



## Under Pressure (Sep 13, 2008)

justpassinby said:


> He healed the sick. He CURED people.


Jesus also BUILT furniture.


----------



## scaredtolive (Mar 19, 2009)

Under Pressure said:


> Jesus also BUILT furniture.


What you think he'd charge for a kitchen table? I'd bet he'd put Ashley's furniture right out of business. Think about it. Would you rather have a table designed by Ashley or the the savior of mankind?


----------



## Scrub-Zero (Feb 9, 2004)

He did it until he was 30, so he probably was pretty good at it.


----------



## Under Pressure (Sep 13, 2008)

I wonder why he waited until he was 30 years old to stop building tables and start curing people.


----------



## Anxiety75 (Feb 10, 2004)

Because he dedicated his life to serving God and got baptized and went to doing the preaching for 3 1/2 years until his death.

_Quote:
Originally Posted by Under Pressure 
I wonder why he waited until he was 30 years old to stop building tables and start curing people.

_

The teasing and poking fun is not a good thing because it gets you no where but shame. :no

I take the word of God seriously and I think the trampling on the name of the Lord is inappropiate.

I think there should be a separate forum for atheists to quarrel all they want about their life without God. I wouldn't go in there and it could be a special membership forum. IMHO

Maybe this one will get locked. ?



scaredtolive said:


> What you think he'd charge for a kitchen table? I'd bet he'd put Ashley's furniture right out of business. Think about it. Would you rather have a table designed by Ashley or the the savior of mankind?


----------



## Under Pressure (Sep 13, 2008)

> The teasing and poking fun is not a good thing because it gets you no where but shame. :no
> 
> I take the word of God seriously and I think the trampling on the name of the Lord is inappropiate.
> 
> ...


Oh come on! I said Jesus built tables and you take that as an insult. I'm not saying anything dirty about Jesus.

The guy who started this thread asked why god allows suffering. I simply answered, "there is no god," and I stopped there and said nothing else and it ended up getting removed. I also got a warning for saying, "there is no god."

Because there is a Christian bias among the moderators and people in this section, they are going to report me and this thread will probably get locked. I bet you a $20 Olive Garden gift card and a wooden table, that this thread gets removed or everything I say in this thread gets removed.


----------



## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

How do you know that? This thread isn't locked.
*I* removed the message because it was harsh; no one reported it!

We mods aren't the jerks you think we are, man.

The "god" you talk about is the one who cares enough to keep us on this planet to honor Him. He sent a man to show us who He was, who was to eventually die for something he didn't do because people didn't believe who He was. There is no amount of suffering comparable to being nailed to a cross by the hands and feet.

I would like to know that I am not going to vanish when I die, but be everywhere. How do I know this will happen? How do I not know? My dad is around me even though he died over two years ago. This is my current trial - to learn to deal with having to stand on my own two feet and not be afraid.

We don't question miracles; we are grateful they happen. I always followed God, but it was the night in June 1999 when I ran over a rabbit, while driving down a city street, after I told God I hated my life where things changed for me forever. He rebuilt me, and yes, I have been through several HUGE trials, but each one shaped my character and gave me wisdom in a new way.


----------



## Under Pressure (Sep 13, 2008)

I didn't say this thread was locked. I said that this thread will PROBABLY get locked. 

What happend to freedom of speech? 

The guy asked why god allows suffering and I gave him my opinionated answer which was "there is no god."

If you were an athiest, you wouldn't have deleted that answer.


----------



## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

> The guy who started this thread asked why god allows suffering. I simply answered, "there is no god," and I stopped there and said nothing else and it ended up getting removed. I also got a warning for saying, "there is no god."


I think if you'd said something along the lines of "personally, I believe there's no god" and then followed up with why you believe there's suffering in the world, it probably wouldn't have been deleted. To just authoritively state "there is no god" sounds like you're starting a debate, and that's against the rules. Believe me, I discovered that the hard way--- see my "Why Do You Believe in Deity?" thread.



Under Pressure said:


> Oh come on! I said Jesus built tables and you take that as an insult. I'm not saying anything dirty about Jesus...
> 
> Because there is a Christian bias among the moderators and people in this section, they are going to report me and this thread will probably get locked. I bet you a $20 Olive Garden gift card and a wooden table, that this thread gets removed or everything I say in this thread gets removed.


As a non-Christian, and (*gasp*) polytheist, I agree with you that there is a bias, however, that is expected, seeing as they are the majority. But I'll tell you one thing, coming into a thread and knowingly taking potshots (c'mon you know the table jokes were) and claiming innocence does not cast Atheism in a positive light...which is a shame, because it is a valid viewpoint (which obviously I don't agree with), but still respect. Like someone else said, if you want to have a debate, then start your own group. Or even better, why don't you start an *educational* thread on Atheism, complete with links to Atheist sites? Because it's a pity, really, that we can't seem to have a civilized discussion in this forum, because too many people fail to respect the views of others.

Now back on topic...

*Demonstrates own suggestion*

Personally, I feel suffering exists as part of the natural balance of the Universe. Without sadness, how would we know joy? Without disease, how would there be room for new life? And so and so on...you get the drift. When it comes to the management of our suffering, I believe that that is *primarily* our responsibility, as maturing human beings...and that petitioning the God(s) for help should be a last resort. They are our teachers, "family", and best friends, who are more than willing to help if we meet our end, however, they are not our servants that we call upon on whim. That's my belief, to each his own.


----------



## Under Pressure (Sep 13, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> I think if you'd said something along the lines of "Personally, I believe there's no god" and then followed up with why you believe there's suffering in the world, it probably wouldn't have been deleted. To just authoritively state "there is no god" sounds like you're starting a debate, and that's against the rules. Believe me, I discovered that the hard way--- see my "Why Do You Believe in Deity?" thread.
> 
> As a non-Christian, and (*gasp*) polytheist, I agree with you that there is a bias, however, that is expected, seeing as they are the majority. But I'll tell you one thing, coming into a thread and knowingly taking potshots (c'mon you know the table jokes were) and claiming innocence does not cast Atheism in a positive light...which is a shame, because it is a valid viewpoint (which obviously I don't agree with), but still respect. Like someone else said, if you want to have a debate, then start your own group. Or even better, why don't you start an *educational* thread on Atheism? Because it's a pity, really, that we can't seem to have a civilized (topic specific) discussion in this forum, because too many people fail to respect the OP's views.


Yeah, I probably should of expanded more on my answer and I'll do it right now. I'm saying that god doesn't allow suffering, because there is no god, in my opinon. Your upbringing and environment causes suffering. For example, children in Ghana are suffering everyday, because of lack of resources and diseases. If those children were born in the U.S., they wouldn't suffer as much. Life would be easier for them. It's just the way it is and it's unfortunate. Some people are just luckier than others.

I just think it funny that the "chosen one" built furniture for a living. I don't see how making jokes about Jesus's hobby is considered disrespectful. Don't religous people have a sense of humor? I was never trying to start a debate in this thread.

I'm not an athiest. I'm a pastafarianist. Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? If you don't, that's cool. I'll respect your beliefs.


----------



## MobiusX (Nov 14, 2008)

because he is evil, he laughs when ppl suffer


----------



## Thresher V (Apr 20, 2009)

It's good to know mods are allowed to take sides and not be impartial and fare to all posters equally.....not much of a moderator are you?


----------



## justpassinby (Oct 21, 2008)

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, _there is no God_; They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way. They are together become unprofitable. There is none that doeth good, no not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre (grave) with their tongues they have used deceit, the poisen of asp (snakes) is under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their ways and the way of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.


----------



## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

Under Pressure said:


> I just think it funny that the "chosen one" built furniture for a living. I don't see how making jokes about Jesus's hobby is considered disrespectful. Don't religous people have a sense of humor? I was never trying to start a debate in this thread.


See, the thing is, I don't see that as odd...or silly, really. I mean, being a carpenter was probably a pretty lucrative trade back then. Then again, maybe it was Jehovah's way of showing humility by having His son come from a humble background, just like the common man. But I'm just speculating at best, I know nill about Christianity and ancient Israel. I'm sure one of our Christian members will fill us in, though.



> I'm not an athiest. I'm a pastafarianist. Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? If you don't, that's cool.


:lol Yes, I have heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster..."All hail Lord of the Meatballs!" http://www.venganza.org/


----------



## Thresher V (Apr 20, 2009)

justpassinby said:


> Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, _there is no God_; They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
> 
> Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way. They are together become unprofitable. There is none that doeth good, no not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre (grave) with their tongues they have used deceit, the poisen of asp (snakes) is under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their ways and the way of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.


That's funny cause I donate as much as I can to the United Way, I encourage logic and reason above physical aggression and I am known to give my time and money to my friends/family/ even a few strangers to help....


----------



## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

justpassinby said:


> Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, _there is no God_; They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.


Pfft, insulting people using scripture doesn't make you look any better.


----------



## justpassinby (Oct 21, 2008)

yeh, i hesitated posting that and I regret it. I'm done defending my beliefs.


----------



## Neptunus (Oct 29, 2007)

^ I know how you feel, I think I'm done with this forum also.


----------



## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Thresher V said:


> It's good to know mods are allowed to take sides and not be impartial and fare to all posters equally.....not much of a moderator are you?


This particular forum has specific rules pertaining to debate that others do not. The likelihood of what you are bringing up is much more appparent here than any other forum on this site. Am I impartial? Yes. But as a moderator, I still listen to all sides.


----------



## Anxiety75 (Feb 10, 2004)

You say you can't understand how Satan is separate from God's plan.

I briefly mentioned that Satan was a creation of God, not part of God, and this Satan rebelled against God. All the angels that God/Jehovah-whatever you prefer to call him, made were considered "sons of God".

So this angel that became Satan was one of God's rebellious sons. Just because he causes evil you don't blame God.

Example: A human father raises a son as best as possible teaching him values and common sense. Then this son of his begins to rebel and create his own ideas and schemes-he murders ppl in cold blood and causes other bad things to happen to ppl. So is the father to blame???
Would they send the father to jail? Is the father part of the son's plan? Was it the father's will that the son go on a rampage?

A person cannot possibly compare the two. In fact they are so opposite because the father holds to the laws and values he taught his son and the son is repeatly causing problems and being prosecuted for a number of his crimes.

How is the father responsible for any of that?:blank

If a person cannot possibly understand that then there is no point in explaining this particular issue any further. I'm not trying to debate anything 
here-just point out the truth using everyday illustrations because that's what Jesus did.



screwjack said:


> Before this thread is closed for debate i'd like to encourage everyone to read up on the "problem of evil" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_problem_of_evil it makes up for some good philosophical reading.
> 
> My biggest problem with the idea of satan/evil is how can it be seperate yet part of Gods plan? This means that ulimately satan is doing Gods work, unless you disconnect your brain and believe that god is beyond human logic which is ok too.


----------



## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

Anxiety75 said:


> So this angel that became Satan was one of God's rebellious sons. Just because he causes evil you don't blame God.


Yeah but god is still allowing it to happen. If god is supposedly omnipotent, then she could have stopped satan, no? Yet she didn't. So either she can't stop satan doing evil, or she won't. If it's the former, then god isn't omnipotent. If the latter, then obviously she doesn't care to stop evil, so it's hard to call that kind of god all loving.

See, the reason that the problem of evil is so intractable (and theologians readily admit this) is that, logically, we can't have:

-a god that doesn't want evil
-a god that's omnipotent
-evil existing

all being true. So there's something amiss. God is clearly not everything some people think she is.


----------



## Amocholes (Nov 5, 2003)

The Spirituality Forum is for Faith-based support, not debate.


----------

