# What is this whole "nice guys" phenomenon?



## sorrwel (May 20, 2012)

I'm starting to wonder who came up with the idea that just because a guy is nice means he should be getting laid by swimsuit models or something. Three of my male friends complain that girls don't like nice guys and that being nice should get girls to flock to them. My opinion on it is that they're confusing "nice" with "unassertive", as it's improbable that girls will say "oh, that guy's really nice, what a turnoff". Maybe I'm just not getting it.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

You're 100% right.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

It's a cop out. It's just an excuse for why a girl doesn't like them or why something didn't work out. It takes all the blame off them and puts it on the girl. "I'm a nice guy, girls don't like nice guys". Nope. That particular girl didn't like you for whatever reason. Not every girl is gonna like you, and the reason won't be cause you're so nice every time. That's just how it goes, some people want you, some people don't.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

I agree. There are a lot of nice guys who let people walk all over them (they're real people-pleasers), and that is a turnoff to most girls. A guy who is _genuinely_ nice shouldn't have anything to worry about as long as he is confident and gets himself out there. There are also guys who get very angry and bitter when girls don't like them back, and use their experiences to stereotype all girls as only liking "bad boys", when really they probably have a personality flaw that's keeping them from attracting the opposite sex.


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## sorrwel (May 20, 2012)

Barette said:


> It's a cop out. It's just an excuse for why a girl doesn't like them or why something didn't work out. It takes all the blame off them and puts it on the girl. "I'm a nice guy, girls don't like nice guys". Nope. That particular girl didn't like you for whatever reason. Not every girl is gonna like you, and the reason won't be cause you're so nice every time. That's just how it goes, some people want you, some people don't.


That's exactly what I tell my male friends who say this. Honestly I think they just have a victim complex. They'll get upset when they can't get girls to date them but can't accept that they may be part of the problem.


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## Invisiblehandicap (Jul 31, 2011)

Barette said:


> It's a cop out. It's just an excuse for why a girl doesn't like them or why something didn't work out. It takes all the blame off them and puts it on the girl. "I'm a nice guy, girls don't like nice guys". Nope. That particular girl didn't like you for whatever reason. Not every girl is gonna like you, and the reason won't be cause you're so nice every time. That's just how it goes, some people want you, some people don't.


:yes:yes Being nice itself does not make you compatible with people.


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## little toaster (Jul 5, 2012)

So be more assertive and ignore possible complaints about harassment? I know that's extreme, but who wants to take that risk just to look confident to other people?


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

I don't know if that many guys are saying they should be getting laid by models for being nice...
And I don't think it's fair to say that when people say they are nice, they're really just unassertive and getting the two confused.

I do think our society in general values kindness far too little.
I can only speak from personal experience, but when I find somebody I really click with, who is kind and sweet (to me and to others), I start to really like them a lot and can look past almost any other character flaw they might have - because finding people like that has unfortunately been rare for me.



tbyrfan said:


> I agree. There are a lot of nice guys who let people walk all over them (they're real people-pleasers), and that is a turnoff to most girls. A guy who is _genuinely_ nice shouldn't have anything to worry about as long as he is confident and gets himself out there.


What's wrong with wanting to make people happy? Why the negativity?
And you know.. some of us have insecurities and anxieties, but would still like relationships.
Many men do look past these same traits in women - at least not have them as deal breakers - so I do think it can be questioned why it's apparently so important to many girls.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

little toaster said:


> So be more assertive and ignore possible complaints about harassment? I know that's extreme, but who wants to take that risk just to look confident to other people?


Assertive != Sexual harassment


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## sorrwel (May 20, 2012)

little toaster said:


> So be more assertive and ignore possible complaints about harassment? I know that's extreme, but who wants to take that risk just to look confident to other people?


Haha it's a rarity that being assertive will generate harassment complaints, so it's not really a risk. I'm not saying you should just go up to a woman and say "Hi, you're beautiful, I want to have sex with you." but just make a bit of an effort. Even then, the girl just might not feel it click, and I think it's her right not to have her entire gender be accused of not liking nice guys because of it.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Milco said:


> What's wrong with wanting to make people happy? Why the negativity?
> And you know.. some of us have insecurities and anxieties, but would still like relationships.
> Many men do look past these same traits in women - at least not have them as deal breakers - so I do think it can be questioned why it's apparently so important to many girls.


There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I'm talking about guys who never say no or stand up for themselves, even when it could risk making them unhappy. And there is nothing wrong with guys who aren't totally confident or are anxious. Nobody is perfect, we all have our issues. When I say confidence, I mean someone who feels comfortable enough with himself to know that he deserves respect.


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## sorrwel (May 20, 2012)

Milco said:


> I don't know if that many guys are saying they should be getting laid by models for being nice...
> And I don't think it's fair to say that when people say they are nice, they're really just unassertive and getting the two confused.
> 
> I do think our society in general values kindness far too little.
> ...


My point is that guys shouldn't be using "girls don't like nice guys" as an excuse, because it just sounds ridiculous. Maybe the girl didn't find him interesting, just wasn't attracted, etc. It just seems like some men are placing blame on this instead of just shrugging and moving on. I have no problem with kindness.

I'm not saying most men do this, but I have noticed that it's become common with a lot of men who I know personally. The reason I said "models" is because my friends will frequently complain about not getting dates from beautiful women when they have not made an effort to put themselves out there and give up after trying a few times. I love men, and I love nice guys, but I don't think that "girls don't like nice guys" is a good excuse for giving up and complaining frequently about women.


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## little toaster (Jul 5, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I'm talking about guys who never say no or stand up for themselves, even when it could risk making them unhappy. And there is nothing wrong with guys who aren't totally confident or are anxious. Nobody is perfect, we all have our issues. When I say confidence, I mean someone who feels comfortable enough with himself to know that he deserves respect.


So let's pretend that I was interested in getting to know you. I said *just pretend*, people.

If I didn't say 'no' because I wanted to spend time with you and make you happy, you wouldn't like it because I should say 'no' to some of what you say, even if I wanted to agree to all of them? What if it's a coincidence? I could have my answer as 'no' to everything you haven't asked me yet.

I had a girl tell me in high school that she thought people would walk all over me if I ever signed up for leadership positions in clubs. But she didn't know me very well, so that wasn't fair. We're not exactly friends or anything, so I guess it doesn't matter.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

little toaster said:


> So let's pretend that I was interested in getting to know you. I said *just pretend*, people.
> 
> If I didn't say 'no' because I wanted to spend time with you and make you happy, you wouldn't like it because I should say 'no' to some of what you say, even if I wanted to agree to all of them? What if it's a coincidence? I could have my answer as 'no' to everything you haven't asked me yet.


Confidence != saying no to everything. It's about not folding when you're challenged, not taking things to heart and getting defensive...it's about making suggestions, being physically assertive, not being afraid to speak your mind (whether that means disagreeing _or_ agreeing with the person), and believing deep down that you're a total boss and you can win the girl over that you're interested in.


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## elvin jones (Dec 12, 2011)

Nice guys and nice girls both finish last.


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## sorrwel (May 20, 2012)

rymo said:


> Confidence != saying no to everything. It's about not folding when you're challenged, not taking things to heart and getting defensive...it's about making suggestions, being physically assertive, not being afraid to speak your mind (whether that means disagreeing _or_ agreeing with the person), and believing deep down that you're a total boss and you can win the girl over that you're interested in.


Exactly.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

little toaster said:


> So let's pretend that I was interested in getting to know you. I said *just pretend*, people.
> 
> If I didn't say 'no' because I wanted to spend time with you and make you happy, you wouldn't like it because I should say 'no' to some of what you say, even if I wanted to agree to all of them? What if it's a coincidence? I could have my answer as 'no' to everything you haven't asked me yet.
> 
> I had a girl tell me in high school that she thought people would walk all over me if I ever signed up for leadership positions in clubs. But she didn't know me very well, so that wasn't fair. We're not exactly friends or anything, so I guess it doesn't matter.


No, that's not what i'm talking about. I don't mind if a guy genuinely agrees to everything. There is no need to say no, and that wouldn't be a turnoff to me. I'm talking about guys that can't say no to people that are obviously taking advantage of them and making them unhappy. I've seen several of my guy friends become very upset over being mistreated and taken advantage of by some mean girls, just because they didn't know when to say enough is enough.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

tbyrfan said:


> There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I'm talking about guys who never say no or stand up for themselves, even when it could risk making them unhappy. And there is nothing wrong with guys who aren't totally confident or are anxious. Nobody is perfect, we all have our issues. When I say confidence, I mean someone who feels comfortable enough with himself to know that he deserves respect.


I would hope people stand up for themselves for their sake, not for mine. If anything, I'd want to help them say no and break free of that situation of dependence they've built up, where it's illegal for them to say no.

I'm just a little confused, I guess..
I'm not saying I'm the best catch out there or that I don't have problems, but I do honestly think I would have looked past most of my problems if it were some nice girl who had them instead of me, so I guess I still don't quite get why I have to be single.
I know I'm more tolerant than most other men I've met, so my point isn't that it's some flaw in girls, but rather that people seem really picky about (what to me seems) silly things in general.



sorrwel said:


> My point is that guys shouldn't be using "girls don't like nice guys" as an excuse, because it just sounds ridiculous. Maybe the girl didn't find him interesting, just wasn't attracted, etc. It just seems like some men are placing blame on this instead of just shrugging and moving on. I have no problem with kindness.


I'm sure girls like nice guys. People do like kindness, of course.
But when you say that maybe the girl just wasn't attracted, I don't think kindness/niceness is unrelated to that, but rather that the unconscious psychology that determines attraction very much takes that into consideration.
So if it was rephrased as "Niceness isn't an attractive quality in itself" would that make a difference?

I can't remember who posted it, but in a previous iteration of this topic here on SAS, someone posted that she wanted somebody who was there for her and not somebody who was everybody's hero.
And I do think there is a point to that in general in negotiating social relationships.
That being too kind and unconditional in your kindness towards others can make you seem subordinate to others, which makes you less attractive for friends and relationships and which can cause you to get used. But that's regardless of your actual feeling of self-worth and confidence.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Best bet: be yourself but be assertive with what you want and go for it. Don't go for 50%; go for it 100% and risk rejection every time. Being yourself solves all the "personality" questions about how to act--just be yourself and go for what you want. That's all there is to it.


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## HustleRose (Jun 19, 2009)

They don't get that niceness isn't the single quality that'll get a girl interested in you/laid.

I think it's also self-entitlement. Like being nice should suffice because girls should be paying attention to men anyways.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

HustleRose said:


> They don't get that niceness isn't the single quality that'll get a girl interested in you/laid.
> 
> I think it's also self-entitlement. Like being nice should suffice because girls should be paying attention to men anyways.


That's not really fair. This doesn't have to be about sex.
And it doesn't have to be about some self-entitlement or control over women.
Well, at least not any more than we all feel we deserve to be loved and to find someone.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Milco said:


> That's not really fair. This doesn't have to be about sex.
> And it doesn't have to be about some self-entitlement or control over women.
> Well, at least not any more than we all feel we deserve to be loved and to find someone.


It's not fair to guys who are legitimately nice and also not bitter towards women because they think they don't like nice guys. You don't seem to fall in that category, so I don't think you have anything to worry about. It's specifically the guys who say "OH deez damn gurls...dey only leik bad boyz", which is just not the case. But in order to be successful with women, a guy should strive to be as assertive and confident as they can (obviously harder with SA, but no one said it didn't take work).


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## HustleRose (Jun 19, 2009)

Milco said:


> That's not really fair. This doesn't have to be about sex.
> And it doesn't have to be about some self-entitlement or control over women.
> Well, at least not any more than we all feel we deserve to be loved and to find someone.


I bolded what rymo wrote because I agree with it. I'm not talking about guys who are nice, but about The Nice Guy. Their bitterness usually stems from the idea that they're entitled to have a woman and that it's unfair they're ignoring guys even thought they're nice... just nice.



rymo said:


> *It's not fair to guys who are legitimately nice and also not bitter towards women because they think they don't like nice guys. * You don't seem to fall in that category, so I don't think you have anything to worry about. It's specifically the guys who say "OH deez damn gurls...dey only leik bad boyz", which is just not the case. But in order to be successful with women, a guy should strive to be as assertive and confident as they can (obviously harder with SA, but no one said it didn't take work).


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

rymo said:


> It's not fair to guys who are legitimately nice and also not bitter towards women because they think they don't like nice guys. You don't seem to fall in that category, so I don't think you have anything to worry about. It's specifically the guys who say "OH deez damn gurls...dey only leik bad boyz", which is just not the case. But in order to be successful with women, a guy should strive to be as assertive and confident as they can (obviously harder with SA, but no one said it didn't take work).


I have always been single and it has been something that has affected me quite a bit. And I have unfortunately had female friends who did like "bad boys" and who would say how they wish their boyfriend was more like me only to flat out reject the idea of ever dating me. So I have been there.
And I have been called manipulative and a jerk here on SAS because I've openly said I know my kindness is a subconscious strategy to try to get people to like me - it is who I am and who I want to be, but I'm not blind to why I am that way.

But it can be really hard to understand why others aren't giving you the same chances that you would give them.
And I really don't think guys ought to have to strive to be as assertive and confident as they can be to achieve dating success - there are many other reasons to do that though.
I don't see confidence as a deal-breaker and I don't think it should be one.
And it can be hard to hear people justify why those who are single are single, especially when referring to things like self-entitlement.
The popular guys at my school were very much the self-entitled ones and they really had no problems socialising. So I guess it can kinda seem these things are used to excuse why people aren't giving others adequate chance why people are being picky about certain traits - not that anyone should be with someone who is bitter at them or who mistreats them of course.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Milco said:


> I have always been single and it has been something that has affected me quite a bit. And I have unfortunately had female friends who did like "bad boys" and who would say how they wish their boyfriend was more like me only to flat out reject the idea of ever dating me. So I have been there.
> And I have been called manipulative and a jerk here on SAS because I've openly said I know my kindness is a subconscious strategy to try to get people to like me - it is who I am and who I want to be, but I'm not blind to why I am that way.
> 
> But it can be really hard to understand why others aren't giving you the same chances that you would give them.
> ...


I'm not saying dating success is the only reason to strive for assertiveness and confidence, I'm just saying that it helps in this area. You have been single all your life because you are not embodying the characteristics that girls like, but at the same time you are seemingly content with who you are. I know I wasn't happy with who I was, and that's what motivated me to become more confident, but if you don't have that desire then more power to you. I don't feel that becoming less of a pushover has anything to do with not being nice, and I think it's something _everyone_ has the potential to do because it's not about changing your personality - it's just about learning what people are attracted to and embodying those characteristics while also infusing your own true personality into that positive transformation.


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## solitarysiren (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm female, and my female friends and I have never said, "I want to date a jerk." We also never have complained about a guy being too nice. There was one guy I went out with who acted like he loved everything we did on dates and agreed with just about everything I said, but he later told me that he ditches people after a while. After a while, he blew off meeting up with me even though he said he wanted to go and then stopped talking to me completely. Did I think he was too nice? No. I had a problem with him pretending to be nice and then blowing people off without telling them that he was even angry at them at all.

Anyways, I'd rather date someone who treats me kindly. I once broke up with a guy mostly because I thought he was too mean.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I don't want a model.

I don't think I'm bad looking, but I still don't want a model. But, yeah, I do have issues...as in I am not socially confident enough, I don't have muscles, and I am a geek and mostly keep to myself.

Women generally want someone who beats their chest and shouts out their love for them. _That isn't me, although I would do nice things for a girl, if I loved her.

_That is where I fail. I am not enough of a player to get even average looking women.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

WintersTale said:


> I don't want a model.
> 
> I don't think I'm bad looking, but I still don't want a model. But, yeah, I do have issues...as in I am not socially confident enough, I don't have muscles, and I am a geek and mostly keep to myself.
> 
> ...


You're a ridiculously nice and gentle guy, and that's awesome. But you don't necessarily try to push past your comfort zone and show that awesomeness to the world. Missed ya on the first challenge thread :/


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Why should I have to jump through hoops?

I am comfortable being myself. I don't understand why guys have to be more assertive than girls in the dating arena. I understand it from a biological perspective, but there are many stupid biological perspectives that we should have ditched by now.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

WintersTale said:


> Why should I have to jump through hoops?
> 
> I am comfortable being myself. I don't understand why guys have to be more assertive than girls in the dating arena. I understand it from a biological perspective, but there are many stupid biological perspectives that we should have ditched by now.


You are comfortable being yourself, but you're not comfortable with your dating life. If you wanted to do something about that, you would have to push past your comfort zone. That's not "jumping through hoops", that's growing as a person and ultimately, when you achieve what you're looking for, becoming more happy. The people doing the challenge are "jumping through hoops" to seize what they want out of life, what makes you so special that you shouldn't have to?


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

What about girls/women? Do they have to jump through hoops?


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

WintersTale said:


> What about girls/women? Do they have to jump through hoops?


Yes. It's a two way street.


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## sorrwel (May 20, 2012)

WintersTale said:


> What about girls/women? Do they have to jump through hoops?


For me it's been.


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## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> What about girls/women? Do they have to jump through hoops?


yup, feels like this:










but it's usually worth the effort.


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## James_Russell (Aug 26, 2011)

If somebody regularly uses the phrase 'I'm such a nice guy' it usually implies they are anything but. 


The phrase should be amended to 'I'm such a bitter narcissist, who wants the D?'


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## sorrwel (May 20, 2012)

a pers0n said:


> If somebody regularly uses the phrase 'I'm such a nice guy' it usually implies they are anything but.
> 
> The phrase should be amended to 'I'm such a bitter narcissist, who wants the D?'


Agreed 100%.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

a pers0n said:


> If somebody regularly uses the phrase 'I'm such a nice guy' it usually implies they are anything but.
> 
> The phrase should be amended to 'I'm such a bitter narcissist, who wants the D?'


+1


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## cloister2 (Sep 2, 2011)

Well when I was in high school I was a very nice guy as opposed to how I am now. I was a people pleaser too. But I remember this nasty shriveled turd of a jerk used to go out with some of the best looking girls in school. He was also a criminal. What did those girls like about him? Probably that he was assertive because that's the only thing he had going for him. Anyways I was much better looking than him but so was any livestock so don't think I'm bragging. Not all girls like jerks but a lot do. I doubt any girls here are like that.

A lot of guys will want a girl solely based on looks which I don't get either...


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

cloister2 said:


> Well when I was in high school I was a very nice guy as opposed to how I am now. I was a people pleaser too. But I remember this nasty shriveled turd of a jerk used to go out with some of the best looking girls in school. He was also a criminal. What did those girls like about him? Probably that he was assertive because that's the only thing he had going for him. Anyways I was much better looking than him but so was any livestock so don't think I'm bragging. Not all girls like jerks but a lot do. Those girls are idiots but I doubt anyone here is like that.


But the one thing to remember is that just because girls like jerks doesn't mean they don't like nice guys too! Just gotta be a *boss* and nice at the same time


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## cloister2 (Sep 2, 2011)

rymo said:


> But the one thing to remember is that just because girls like jerks doesn't mean they don't like nice guys too! Just gotta be a *boss* and nice at the same time


Hahah ok thanks. If only I could be like Clint Eastwood in that movie.


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## TobeyJuarez (May 16, 2012)

sorrwel said:


> Haha it's a rarity that being assertive will generate harassment complaints, so it's not really a risk. I'm not saying you should just go up to a woman and say "Hi, you're beautiful, I want to have sex with you." but just make a bit of an effort. Even then, the girl just might not feel it click, and I think it's her right not to have her entire gender be accused of not liking nice guys because of it.


lets say that a guy try that approach... usually if the girl is not attracted to the guy he gets labeled as a creeper by the girl


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## little toaster (Jul 5, 2012)

cloister2 said:


> Well when I was in high school I was a very nice guy as opposed to how I am now. I was a people pleaser too. But I remember this nasty shriveled turd of a jerk used to go out with some of the best looking girls in school. He was also a criminal. What did those girls like about him? Probably that he was assertive because that's the only thing he had going for him. Anyways I was much better looking than him but so was any livestock so don't think I'm bragging. Not all girls like jerks but a lot do. I doubt any girls here are like that.
> 
> A lot of guys will want a girl solely based on looks which I don't get either...


I've noticed that being a little mean and picking on girls at school will only attract the types of girls you probably shouldn't date. Those girls are usually fairly attractive and popular, but to them, everything is about showing off, making fun of anyone and everyone just for laughs, and making a scene just because its hilarious. Whenever they (try to) do something nice, they have to make sure that the whole world sees it, and that they get credit for it.

That whole making a scene thing might be a bit difficult to figure out initially, but you can tell if they are just showing interest only in front of other people when there's really nothing there. It's just for fun without having to get serious about anything.

It's not too hard to figure them out, fortunately. Now that I understand them, things they do don't surprise me anymore.


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## Doomed (Jul 29, 2012)

sorrwel said:


> I'm starting to wonder who came up with the idea that just because a guy is nice means he should be getting laid by swimsuit models or something. Three of my male friends complain that girls don't like nice guys and that being nice should get girls to flock to them. My opinion on it is that they're confusing "nice" with "unassertive", as it's improbable that girls will say "oh, that guy's really nice, what a turnoff". Maybe I'm just not getting it.


Being called nice isn't a compliment in regards to dating. It's just a polite way of describing someone you don't have a strong opinion of. Nice is non-threatening, safe and dull. Nice is forgotten and taken for granted.

Nice guy frustrations stems from women leading them on. These women use nice guys to build their self-esteem. You can always count on a nice guy to return your phone call, text message, e-mail immediately. You can count on a nice guy for a much needed compliment. You can always count on a nice guy to bring you home from work, do hundreds of favor for you, and be all of the things you want from a boyfriend.

But attraction doesn't work that way. Eventually, women become comfortable with the "relationship" that they either forget about the man's feelings (failing to ever ask why a male is going through so much trouble for her benefit) or are aware of his feelings, and selfishly refuse to let the guy down because it will screw up a one way "relationship". Are we going to pretend women like this don't exist. For all the frustrated male virgins who consistently fail at landing a girlfriend, and complain about being "too nice", there is an equal amount of females who knowingly exploit their kindness and feign disbelief when the male friend gets pissed off. It goes both ways.


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## nautilus (Aug 21, 2012)

WintersTale said:


> Why should I have to jump through hoops?
> 
> I am comfortable being myself. I don't understand why guys have to be more assertive than girls in the dating arena. I understand it from a biological perspective, but there are many stupid biological perspectives that we should have ditched by now.


I agree that men shouldn't have to be _more_ assertive than women in dating. That's just my opinion. Some individuals would rather have the traditional gender roles, and that's fine too (so long as no one gets hurt by it or forced into it against their will). It's good that you're comfortable with yourself; definitely don't loose that when dating. People can talk about statistics, genetics, society, generalizations and popularity all they want, that doesn't mean that following those trends will lead to a fulfilling, honest relationship.

Now, personally I'm looking for kind, genuine guy who isn't defined by what other people tell him to be, and I know for a fact I'm not the only woman like that. I don't know how _many_ women share this opinion, but I think it's safe to assume that the percentage is fairly significant. Here's the catch, though; _how are we supposed to find you?!_ It's an entirely technical problem. You don't have to jump through hoops, but you _do_ have to find some way to meet and get to know people. There's an infinite number of possibilities as far as how to go about that. Granted, most of them aren't easy... but I guess that's why we're all on this forum in the first place.

In an ideal dating world, everything would be 50/50. But in real life, every individual has different strengths and weaknesses and is at different points in their personal growth. I try to expect the same things of myself as I expect of guys (ex. I've asked guys out before), that doesn't mean I always have the level of skill necessary to start a relationship (okay, okay, so it hasn't happened yet). Even so, I'm extremely grateful whenever a guy I'm interested in shows initiative or happens to have developed their conversation/flirting/whatever skills.

It takes a certain amount of combined effort and skills for two people to form a healthy relationship. Ultimately, does it matter that much which of you does what to make that happen? Wherever you're starting from, learning more dating skills and putting in more effort can only help your chances.


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## nautilus (Aug 21, 2012)

Doomed said:


> For all the frustrated male virgins who consistently fail at landing a girlfriend, and complain about being "too nice", there is an equal amount of females who knowingly exploit their kindness and feign disbelief when the male friend gets pissed off. It goes both ways.


Yes, this may even be fairly common. And there are also "nice girls" and men who take advantage of women's kindness. People can be cruel to each other, and I find it sickening when I see it happen. I think the original point though is, is it _productive_ to dwell on stereotypes? Does trying to act like a "bad boy" when you're not one help you find the relationship you want? No. Does complaining about about these girls change their minds? No. Does it help you find the ones you _do_ want? No.

No good ever comes of generalizations. In general


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## Invisiblehandicap (Jul 31, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> Why should I have to jump through hoops?
> 
> I am comfortable being myself. I don't understand why guys have to be more assertive than girls in the dating arena. I understand it from a biological perspective, but there are many stupid biological perspectives that we should have ditched by now.


The thing is you cannot change other people, only yourself. Its no use saying other people should to this and that. Unfair or not it will not change anytime soon.

Why should you become more assertive? To find someone.

Even if a guy is the "perfect boyfriend material" , no one will know that unless he puts himself out there. No one can read your mind, no one automatically knows who you are. You have to be the assertive one because you are the one who wants it the most.

Its like making friends. If you have none, you have to be assertive to make them. Those that have friends already dont try hard at all to make new ones as they do not need them ( i have observed this a lot irl). Someone who can easily get a relationship or has had many in the past is inclined to try less hard to find another one.


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## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

WintersTale said:


> Why should I have to jump through hoops?
> 
> I am comfortable being myself. I don't understand why guys have to be more assertive than girls in the dating arena. I understand it from a biological perspective, but there are many stupid biological perspectives that we should have ditched by now.


You don't have to put on some kind of peacocking display. Just don't be afraid to be yourself and say what you want, instead of always trying to be the nice guy.


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## Doomed (Jul 29, 2012)

nautilus said:


> Yes, this may even be fairly common. And there are also "nice girls" and men who take advantage of women's kindness. People can be cruel to each other, and I find it sickening when I see it happen. I think the original point though is, is it _productive_ to dwell on stereotypes? Does trying to act like a "bad boy" when you're not one help you find the relationship you want? No. Does complaining about about these girls change their minds? No. Does it help you find the ones you _do_ want? No.
> 
> No good ever comes of generalizations. In general


My example just served as a counterweight to the popular opinion. It's reasonable to assume that many frustrated nice guys share this view because of how a female friend treated him in the past.

I don't speak in generalizations. I didn't say all women are guilty of that behavior. But ignoring this "phenomenon" as the op described, and treating the behavior like it just came from the sky ignores a valid reason why some men feel this way. It's not justifiable to hold this bitter belief towards all women, but it's certainly a factor in their thinking.


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## _AJ_ (Jan 23, 2008)

well Im sure your friends are very nice people, but ask them this:
if a 300 lb grandma was nice to you, would you be totally turned on ?
lol


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## 87wayz (Jul 5, 2012)

sorrwel said:


> I'm starting to wonder who came up with the idea that just because a guy is nice means he should be getting laid by swimsuit models or something. Three of my male friends complain that girls don't like nice guys and that being nice should get girls to flock to them. My opinion on it is that they're confusing "nice" with "unassertive", as it's improbable that girls will say "oh, that guy's really nice, what a turnoff". Maybe I'm just not getting it.


You're right: the act of being nice is not some kind of sex-money. Its not like: if I can be nice in the right proportion (value) of her attractiveness, she will owe me sex. No, women **** who they want to ****. I had to figure that out

Being "nice" in the realm of dating is like being "neutral" in the realm of debate. I call women *****es sometimes.... im sexually aggressive too. I can be nice or I can be a motha****a and I cuss alot and drink beer. Be yourself first - why would a woman want somebody who is just trying to be who he thinks she wants? You gotta man up, tell her to sit her *** down sometime, say what you feel - be respectful overall but this is not the 1950s with traditional chivalry and ****


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## nautilus (Aug 21, 2012)

Doomed said:


> My example just served as a counterweight to the popular opinion. It's reasonable to assume that many frustrated nice guys share this view because of how a female friend treated him in the past.
> 
> I don't speak in generalizations. I didn't say all women are guilty of that behavior. But ignoring this "phenomenon" as the op described, and treating the behavior like it just came from the sky ignores a valid reason why some men feel this way. It's not justifiable to hold this bitter belief towards all women, but it's certainly a factor in their thinking.


Hmm, point taken. I guess I interpreted the OP differently; it sounded to me like she was describing guys who think that just being "nice" alone should entitle them to whatever woman they want.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

tbyrfan said:


> There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I'm talking about guys who never say no or stand up for themselves, even when it could risk making them unhappy. And there is nothing wrong with guys who aren't totally confident or are anxious. Nobody is perfect, we all have our issues. When I say confidence, I mean someone who feels comfortable enough with himself to know that he deserves respect.


This this this. Many guys on this site wont listen to what you're talking about, though.


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## theseventhkey (Jul 22, 2012)

rymo said:


> Assertive != Sexual harassment


Not if your attractive, no such thing as sexual harassment if she thinks your "Hot".


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## Mr Bacon (Mar 10, 2012)

People tend to mix up the words "*nice*" and "*needy*". Being nice, in itself, is not a negative attribute, it's the contrary actually!


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## Nono441 (May 14, 2012)

Doomed said:


> Being called nice isn't a compliment in regards to dating. It's just a polite way of describing someone you don't have a strong opinion of. Nice is non-threatening, safe and dull. Nice is forgotten and taken for granted.
> 
> Nice guy frustrations stems from women leading them on. These women use nice guys to build their self-esteem. You can always count on a nice guy to return your phone call, text message, e-mail immediately. You can count on a nice guy for a much needed compliment. You can always count on a nice guy to bring you home from work, do hundreds of favor for you, and be all of the things you want from a boyfriend.
> 
> But attraction doesn't work that way. Eventually, women become comfortable with the "relationship" that they either forget about the man's feelings (failing to ever ask why a male is going through so much trouble for her benefit) or are aware of his feelings, and selfishly refuse to let the guy down because it will screw up a one way "relationship". Are we going to pretend women like this don't exist. For all the frustrated male virgins who consistently fail at landing a girlfriend, and complain about being "too nice", there is an equal amount of females who knowingly exploit their kindness and feign disbelief when the male friend gets pissed off. It goes both ways.


Well said. I need to agree with this as I've been a victim of that a few months ago. Never again, though - I've learned my lesson! I'm not sure why but I keep fishing up these kinds of girls you talk about, Doomed. I must be unlucky.

You can't change how people act, so personally I've decided to just not give them what they want. Even though I'm a kind person at heart, I tend to hide that nowadays until I've become more acquainted with the other person. It goes against my nature, but, whatever. It seems to work somewhat.


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## Azador (Sep 4, 2012)

As far as I can see it's just a form of mud-slinging used in internet gender wars.


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## Rossy (Jan 15, 2011)

Women are not interested in nice guys,the all go for complete *******s.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Invisiblehandicap said:


> Even if a guy is the "perfect boyfriend material" , no one will know that unless he puts himself out there. No one can read your mind, no one automatically knows who you are. You have to be the assertive one because you are the one who wants it the most.


Many of us have put ourselves out there in the ways we can, but without success.
And have to be careful with this "assertiveness" as it often gets labelled as desperation on here.
But putting yourself out there, getting to know people and asking them out is not always enough for things to happen.



probably offline said:


> This this this. Many guys on this site wont listen to what you're talking about, though.


Because most guys on this site aren't like that.
People can say no and stand up for themselves in discussions. We don't just bend over backwards trying to please mindlessly.
And we do know we deserve respect - though thinking you deserve something from others so often gets labelled as self-entitlement and rude behaviour on here.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

Milco said:


> Because most guys on this site aren't like that.
> People can say no and stand up for themselves in discussions. We don't just bend over backwards trying to please mindlessly.
> And we do know we deserve respect - though thinking you deserve something from others so often gets labelled as self-entitlement and rude behaviour on here.


Well, in that case my reply wasn't directed to _your _kind. I wrote "many" because I wanted to emphasize that I wasn't talking about the whole male population on this forum. Maybe I should've written "some" instead to avoid offending potential "nice guys".

Anyway, I don't know why I posted anything related to this topic. It's a pointless effort. Heh.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I don't think it's because I am nice that I am rejected. 

I stated why I am rejected. It's simply this:

1. Too shy
2. Unpopular interests
3. Look like a geek (skinny, glasses, etc.)

If I looked like Brad Pitt, that would cancel out 1 and 2. And if I was extremely extroverted, that would cancel out 2 and 3.

Having all 3 pretty much guarantees that I have to rely on porn, instead of girls.


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## Mr Bacon (Mar 10, 2012)

WintersTale said:


> I don't think it's because I am nice that I am rejected.
> 
> I stated why I am rejected. It's simply this:
> 
> ...


You're just assuming good looks would make up for other drawbacks because you're envious of handsome guys. Nonetheless, trust me, handsome guys like me still struggle in the dating field when they have social anxiety/depression. Good looks might get you a couple night out' hookups, but you won't get much further in long term relationships.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

The world just puts so much emphasis on physical appearance. It would be better for me if I was good looking.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

WintersTale said:


> The world just puts so much emphasis on physical appearance. It would be better for me if I was good looking.


Why must you state the obvious time and time again? Man - I remember several months ago you were incredibly optimistic. You were losing weight, working on your appearance, getting motivated...and then somewhere along the line you did a complete 180 and just gave up. You took up the torch and pitchfork against society and its stupid rules instead of continuing to work on yourself. It was quite disappointing to see.

It's certainly the _easier_ way to go through life - putting the blame on others for your misfortunes time and time again. I'll give you that much. But it's certainly not the most rewarding. Yeh alright - it would be better if you were this way, or that way, and it would be better if Taylor Morris didn't get all his limbs blown off. But you take the hand you were dealt and do the best you possibly can with it - that's all that really matters in the end.

It is perfectly within your power to get a girl. I guarantee that. But getting to that point could take some hard work. You say you are comfortable with who you are, but I doubt deep down that you are proud of your attitude towards women and society. You do have a great personality, but now it's just a matter of bringing it to life. It's time to grow. And the only way to do that is to stop feeling sorry for yourself and start working on yourself and put yourself out there. It's the ONLY way.


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## Doomed (Jul 29, 2012)

nautilus said:


> Hmm, point taken. I guess I interpreted the OP differently; it sounded to me like she was describing guys who think that just being "nice" alone should entitle them to whatever woman they want.


You made fair points. We can build pathways to success through listening to each other.



Nono441 said:


> Well said. I need to agree with this as I've been a victim of that a few months ago. Never again, though - I've learned my lesson! I'm not sure why but I keep fishing up these kinds of girls you talk about, Doomed. I must be unlucky.
> 
> You can't change how people act, so personally I've decided to just not give them what they want. Even though I'm a kind person at heart, I tend to hide that nowadays until I've become more acquainted with the other person. It goes against my nature, but, whatever. It seems to work somewhat.


I'm not much of a relationship advice giver. I do know that it's helpful to communicate what you're after in the beginning to spare yourself the heartbreak in the future. It's not a bad thing to have a female friend, but if she's going to put you in that category and you want something more, it's best to explain why you can't accept that and move on.

You'll find someone.


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## Anonymous NYC (Apr 14, 2012)

lmao....I love how "nice guy" is somehow synonymous with a spineless man in peoples minds.....as if those two characteristics are inseparable..... These nice guys are unsuccessful because they have "character flaws" YET the jerks abusive behavior, delayed adolescence, lack of schooling and/or irresponsible behavior are not weighed in to determine or question their character. Everyone has flaws yet only nice guys get hammered for it.


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## apx24 (Jan 31, 2012)

Guys use it is as a reason to complain, and as a reason to avoid facing the real problem that is themselves. I'm an ex 'nice guy', I used to be one of those guys who thought that all women like jerks and that I was unlucky with girls because I was too nice, but that was never the case, I know women are not attracted to me, but I realise that the problem for me isn't that i'm too nice, in fact, sometimes nowadays I worry that I'm not nice enough to get a girlfriend lol (by nice here I mean genuinely nice and caring, and not shallow)

I know being a jerk won't get me a girlfriend, and if it did the relationship would't last very long anyway.

But don't think that these 'nice guys' are jerks, some of them may be jerks but a lot of them are nice and caring, but lack self-esteem and confidence and are just insecure, hence why the people-please, but you can't be nice to a woman and then expect her to fall in love with you.



tbyrfan said:


> I agree. There are a lot of nice guys who let people walk all over them (they're real people-pleasers), and that is a turnoff to most girls. A guy who is _genuinely_ nice shouldn't have anything to worry about as long as he is confident and gets himself out there. There are also guys who get very angry and bitter when girls don't like them back, and use their experiences to stereotype all girls as only liking "bad boys", when really they probably have a personality flaw that's keeping them from attracting the opposite sex.


You summed it up perfectly


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## nautilus (Aug 21, 2012)

WintersTale said:


> 1. Too shy
> 2. Unpopular interests
> 3. Look like a geek (skinny, glasses, etc.)


Sounds perfect to me. And I'm not kidding. _Everyone has different preferences._ I guarantee there are women out there who would be attracted to you for who you are. But again, they need to be able to find you, or vice versa. Of course, forming a connection with someone compatible is the hard part, but a lot of us are in the same boat as you, so keep trying.


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## cloister2 (Sep 2, 2011)

'Nice' is a good quality like handsome, intelligent, being rich. But guys can fake it, unlike say, faking being good looking. Also there's the fact that in this shallow superficial society we live in, no one gives a **** about niceness.


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## Jason 1 (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm nice... but I rarely express my kindness because I'm too shy. That is, I have good intentions but since I rarely act out those good intentions I will probably always be alone. I'm OK with that though. I don't expect girls to like me and I'm not bitter.


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## RelinquishedHell (Apr 10, 2012)

There is nothing wrong with being nice, I enjoy being nice and caring for others.
Just don't be a push over.


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## whatyoumustthink (Apr 25, 2012)

I have an alternative perspective on this issue, with it having been a problem for me for a long time (and, in fact, I'd argue there are points [especially recently] when it still very much is).

Rather than calling myself "the nice guy", it was a label that was repeatedly given to me by different people over time - male AND female. People used to tell me I got bullied because I was "too nice", girls used to insist that I was "nice" and I'd get someone as a result of that (don't worry, I'm not naive to all the obvious classic female misconceptions behind that by any means...), and eventually I found that people were describing me as "nice" over situations varying from mundane to huge. But the one consistent thing, was that it seemed to be this term being used to describe *either* being weak/submissive/lacking character, or "the only good quality I had" (i.e. a substitute for being ugly).

As a result, I became the polar opposite of the conventional nice guy - I despised people calling me that. In fact, I was desperate for people to think I was a tough, or even mean person, just to throw that label off myself. I began to understand how a cocky guy worked... and I tried to emulate it, seriously. But, LOL, guess what? I still wasn't considered attractive, therefore I was dismissed as being "nice" for a whole other reason. So over the years, I've tried to fight to throw it off by being more straight about how I feel, or not fearing making comments such as controversial jokes. It still haunts me in some ways - one thing I've struggled with is handling controlling people, with it being rooted in my family and high school years, and it also surfaces as the "obvious" first impression due to having SA.

But more to the point, what I'm trying to say, is sometimes this whole definition of "nice" is vague and ridiculous. I know people who are actively kind and stand up for what they believe in, but still get pushed around at times. I know people who are basically called "nice" because it's the only thing people can say about them for not being intrinsically bad towards them. I've seen people all across the spectrum, from distinctly towards the submissive end, to somewhere in between, to obviously overconfident... and the fact is, the "nice" label doesn't *always* get applied to them critically. They get away with "pushover" elements. It makes me wonder, when is too nice *really* too nice? Why is it that some people think I'm a sarcastic dick, and others think I'm too kind? The concept of weakness seems to come back to haunt me, but not the other, similar people around me. Therefore, I really must deserve it. It makes me angry, somewhat, as I can't help scenarios where people have tried to destroy my self esteem.

Generally speaking, though, ultimately when nice is used *at all*, it's often meant as this vague term for being a base person in some way - whether it's lacking in character, or the ability to make decisions. And I really don't believe it makes much of a difference in attraction. Qualities like affection, devotion, loyalty, trust are something else, and sadly in this cruel world they're mixed up with "nice", because people have lost sight of a truly kind person when very few exist... any form of kindness gets moulded into one now. But more than all that, true kindness isn't just chatting to someone without playing a prank on them/insulting them, it's the act of being sincerely selfless. Selflessness, in my opinion, is considered attractive when it's shown with both sincerity and authority.


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## Icebat (Oct 16, 2011)

A "Nice Guy" is a guy who is a pushover and is nice just to get in a girl's pants.

A guy who is nice, is genuinely nice but is still a man. Not some doormat.

Girls want the latter.


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## whatyoumustthink (Apr 25, 2012)

I'm not sure whether or not that was a direct response to me, but that hits on the point I was really trying to make. Those are the common views on this "nice guy" term, but over time, I've started to observe that it isn't as black and white as those definitions alone. I'm not saying that's a good thing, however, it's something of a paradox.


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## 87wayz (Jul 5, 2012)

I think "nice," insofar as its application, is a misnomer. Read: weak - nice is a euphemism really


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## whatyoumustthink (Apr 25, 2012)

87wayz said:


> I think "nice," insofar as its application, is a misnomer. Read: weak - nice is a euphemism really


I agree, it's primarily used as a polite term to cover for either that, an uninspiring personality, or an excuse for physical shortcomings.


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## Chieve (Oct 9, 2012)

well it's also annoying when girls say "all guys are jerks" when a guy breaks up with them. like its the guys fault and not the girls, and like he broke up with her just to be an ***.

its kind of annoying when a girl acts like a guy can't break up with them, and their only intent it to be a jerk and the only person allowed to break up the relationship is the girl.

i agree with you though, im just saying, girls blame guys for dumb things too.

I had a friend who, with every guy that broke up with her, she will be like "all guys are jerks here. i wish i lived in new york and not cali, i bet a lot of nice guys are there" and then she continues to say "im never going to have a boy friend for a while" then a month later she has a boy friend...

like right now, my friend recently broke up with her boyfriend, same thing, and now she is already having lust for some guy she thinks has a crush on her, because he is texting her winky faces and she used to have a crush on him 4 years ago, like wtf?!? what happened to all guys being jerks

its also annoying when girls think all guys are pigs and only want girls for sex which isn't completely true.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Chieve said:


> well it's also annoying when girls say "all guys are jerks" when a guy breaks up with them. like its the guys fault and not the girls, and like he broke up with her just to be an ***.


Do girls say that when they get dumped? I think girls say that when they find out that their boyfriend has been cheating on them or lying to them, in which case it IS his fault.


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## awkwardsilent (Jun 14, 2012)

I just don't think its fair to think that being nice entitles you to anything, other than basic respect and cordiality in return. 

Just sayin...

That said, obviously not all guys are jerks, and women don't actually believe it its a overused line that gets said in the midst of heartbreak.


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## Chieve (Oct 9, 2012)

rednosereindeer said:


> Do girls say that when they get dumped? I think girls say that when they find out that their boyfriend has been cheating on them or lying to them, in which case it IS his fault.


yeah they do. my friend got dumped, wasn't cheated or lying too, the relationship was just slowly dying. once he broke up with her, she called all guys a jerk. it was soo annoying.


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## Mongoose (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm pretty sure women don't like guys who are mean to them. But being nice isn't enough for a guy like me who lacks charisma, an interesting life, looks, money, his own place, sexual experience...


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