# Do you push people away?



## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

So the guy I like, who has SA, is the most amazing guy I've ever met, BUT ever since I have known him he has pushed people away because of his SA. He literally has only three friends, two guys he's known since childhood, and me. And he even tries to push me away if I ignore him and he thinks I am rejecting or abandoning him. It is so bad that he struggles to go out with me, even though he says he wants to. He says no or cancels about 6 times out of 10, even though when we do actually go out we have such a nice time. I have asked him on many occasions if he will be more comfortable if I just stop suggesting going places, and he said thanks but no, he can't ever ask me to do so because we're in each other's lives for a reason and we have an agreement to help each other heal and he honours that. At the same time, he knows that I am sad that he pushes me away, but seems incapable of fixing it. He has enormous abandonment issues, to the extent that if I don't contact him for even five days he thinks I've given up on him and starts to ignore me or freeze me out. He has admitted to all his problems and issues, and is very logical and rational, but then again seems incapable of changing, even though he is in a lot of pain. He's not in therapy currently, but admits he needs to go. 

Is this kinda normal stuff with SA?


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## Kevin001 (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't know about pushing people away, people just tend to leave me over time.


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## twitchy666 (Apr 21, 2013)

*maybe I should?*

everyone does that to me

I'm prone to abuse & rejection.
I swallow and digest it

boxing pads strapped to hands so they don't fall off when hit (into your face)
for practice
so I like my idea of kickboxing practice wearing sandals as pads


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Well sounds a lot like me:

I have 3 friends from childhood, and 1 from a bit later... (Well he's from like teen years..? I guess)

Out of which I can hang with 2, and occasionally I have problems with them too... (usually, they recognize this though and it's alright)

I usually come along with people quite well, but I can't hold the relationships up with them for longer, because I will think they don't want me around. (For no actual reason.. Even if they've shown they do want..)
(I can sometimes do small things, if I really push myself)


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

MaggieRose said:


> So the guy I like, who has SA, is the most amazing guy I've ever met, BUT ever since I have known him he has pushed people away because of his SA. He literally has only three friends, two guys he's known since childhood, and me. And he even tries to push me away if I ignore him and he thinks I am rejecting or abandoning him. It is so bad that he struggles to go out with me, even though he says he wants to. He says no or cancels about 6 times out of 10, even though when we do actually go out we have such a nice time. I have asked him on many occasions if he will be more comfortable if I just stop suggesting going places, and he said thanks but no, he can't ever ask me to do so because we're in each other's lives for a reason and we have an agreement to help each other heal and he honours that. At the same time, he knows that I am sad that he pushes me away, but seems incapable of fixing it. He has enormous abandonment issues, to the extent that if I don't contact him for even five days he thinks I've given up on him and starts to ignore me or freeze me out. He has admitted to all his problems and issues, and is very logical and rational, but then again seems incapable of changing, even though he is in a lot of pain. He's not in therapy currently, but admits he needs to go.
> 
> Is this kinda normal stuff with SA?


I can't really tell you if it's common or not, sorry.

However, I can tell you that I used to do something similar. Essentially I was anticipating rejection, so if someone seemed to be showing interest (of any kind) I would assume that they were either just being nice and I was imposing upon them or that they had yet to realise their mistake but when they did the rejection would be forthcoming. As I was waiting for the rejection, anything that could be taken as rejection would be greeted with a thought along the lines of "Aaand there it is, I'll just leave them alone so things don't get awkward". So it wasn't so much that I was pushing people away, I genuinely saw it as a way to allow people to escape without making things difficult, that I was doing them a favour.

Maybe that's how your friend feels, you'd have to ask him to find out I guess. The answer for me is a little cliched but I eventually came to the conclusion that even if it's true that nobody else likes me, I do. I still expect the rejection (I'd need personal examples of acceptance to change that) but I don't preempt it, if someone said they wanted to spend time with me I'd take it on face value (even if I didn't really understand why).

Hopefully something in there was useful to you.


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## Ominous Indeed (Sep 6, 2015)

MaggieRose said:


> He has enormous abandonment issues, to the extent that if I don't contact him for even five days he thinks I've given up on him and starts to ignore me or freeze me out.


I do this as well to people. I can also do that if I see the person enjoying themselves with someone other than me.. That's usually a bigger problem because most people hang with more than one person, and this is how the downward spiral starts. I see them happy with someone else and then I'll stop talking to them, and then they feel like I don't like them and then the whole relationship falls apart piece by piece.

I just want the person aaall to myself >: )

At the same time this is something I will never mention to the person I am talking to, because I don't want them to feel like they shouldn't be able to talk to any person they want (because they absolutely should able to talk to anyone they want).


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

I can't help but LOL. We are both martial artists, so maybe the equipment will come in handy!



twitchy666 said:


> everyone does that to me
> 
> I'm prone to abuse & rejection.
> I swallow and digest it
> ...


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

Sounds like him. He sometimes gives me the evil eye in our dojo because I'm very chatty and easy with people and usually have a good time training with them. But over time he has seen that I'm not with those people and I'm trying to be with him! How do you think you can solve the problem, by the way? Or is it not something you can fix? I can do only so much, the rest has to come from him...he has to meet me halfway at least...and I'm waiting patiently.



Demon Soul said:


> I do this as well to people. I can also do that if I see the person enjoying themselves with someone other than me.. That's usually a bigger problem because most people hang with more than one person, and this is how the downward spiral starts. I see them happy with someone else and then I'll stop talking to them, and then they feel like I don't like them and then the whole relationship falls apart piece by piece.
> 
> I just want the person aaall to myself >: )
> 
> At the same time this is something I will never mention to the person I am talking to, because I don't want them to feel like they shouldn't be able to talk to any person they want (because they absolutely should able to talk to anyone they want).


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## solasum (Nov 17, 2008)

Yes, I do this all the time. I push people away not only in romantic relationships, but also in platonic ones. I think it's a defense mechanism.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

It is, right? I just can't figure out how to dismantle it. What do you think would help you to get over this? Really interested to know.



solasum said:


> Yes, I do this all the time. I push people away not only in romantic relationships, but also in platonic ones. I think it's a defense mechanism.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

Thanks, that does help. Does it mean you've never had a relationship, though? I would love to go down that road with him, but don't know if he's capable of it! He does seem very responsive to my chatting and attention, though - he's happy to have it, especially when I tell him I like him just the way he is, etc. But if I leave him be for a few days, we go back to square one! It is killing me! But I love him just the same, so I will persevere (been going on for two years now, but much better than two years ago when he couldn't even get words out - he's made HUGE progress since then).



LonelyLurker said:


> I can't really tell you if it's common or not, sorry.
> 
> However, I can tell you that I used to do something similar. Essentially I was anticipating rejection, so if someone seemed to be showing interest (of any kind) I would assume that they were either just being nice and I was imposing upon them or that they had yet to realise their mistake but when they did the rejection would be forthcoming. As I was waiting for the rejection, anything that could be taken as rejection would be greeted with a thought along the lines of "Aaand there it is, I'll just leave them alone so things don't get awkward". So it wasn't so much that I was pushing people away, I genuinely saw it as a way to allow people to escape without making things difficult, that I was doing them a favour.
> 
> ...


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

Okay, you sound a bit like him. He's almost 25. Have you ever had a girlfriend or a relationship, or does that just seem way too unachievable? I would like to go down that road with him... Do you think there's hope?



Raies said:


> Well sounds a lot like me:
> 
> I have 3 friends from childhood, and 1 from a bit later... (Well he's from like teen years..? I guess)
> 
> ...


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## scooby (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm very successful at doing this.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

MaggieRose said:


> Thanks, that does help. Does it mean you've never had a relationship, though? I would love to go down that road with him, but don't know if he's capable of it! He does seem very responsive to my chatting and attention, though - he's happy to have it, especially when I tell him I like him just the way he is, etc. But if I leave him be for a few days, we go back to square one! It is killing me! But I love him just the same, so I will persevere (been going on for two years now, but much better than two years ago when he couldn't even get words out - he's made HUGE progress since then).


Unfortunately yes, but in my case it's mainly because just as others don't seem to relate to me unless I fake it (hence the anticipation of rejection) I don't seem to relate to them either (meaning I never feel a genuine connection with people) so I wouldn't lose hope in your case.

Although it sounds like he may have more extreme rejection issues than I did, the way to break through to me would be to use logic (you mentioned that he's logical/rational). I'd probably be wondering why you would choose me when you could choose someone who fits the general expectations, but as long as you were able to answer honestly/rationally you'd be able to break through.

He's probably aware that no relationship is guaranteed even when everything is "perfect", so he should allow you both to find out where it goes (assuming the feelings are mutual of course) step by step in spite of the fear. Approach it as more of an experiment, "You think I'll find you boring (or whatever), well let's find out", even if it turns out you're not compatible romantically you could still be friends. Again I can't really tell you if that would work for him but it might, you never know.

I wish you luck.


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## Ominous Indeed (Sep 6, 2015)

MaggieRose said:


> Sounds like him. He sometimes gives me the evil eye in our dojo because I'm very chatty and easy with people and usually have a good time training with them. But over time he has seen that I'm not with those people and I'm trying to be with him! How do you think you can solve the problem, by the way? Or is it not something you can fix? I can do only so much, the rest has to come from him...he has to meet me halfway at least...and I'm waiting patiently.


It's obvious that what he lacks is confidence so he needs that somehow. It's a very tricky situation indeed. The more success I have together with someone, social success I mean, the more need I feel to impress, and the more afraid I become to talk to them. It doesn't always happen though but it usually does. It happens when I start to care about the person and I become scared of losing them. It's just easier to distance yourself instead of trying to live up the standards you have set yourself. At the same time, If I don't have success with that person once (what I consider success!), then I also feel like not talking to them, again because I am projecting my feelings onto them and I think that they think what I think, even though that is almost never the case. You know, you start getting thoughts about how you are boring and who want's to be a with a boring person right? I have cried because of that sometimes. Why do they keep inviting me out, because I am such a piece of **** and I can't do anything right. Obviously it's only me that thinks that but I still think it..

I think you just have to stick with him through the times he considers bad and good, and then just be there. I don't think he thinks that you will stick around forever, because then he wouldn't anxiety for u. He probably assumes the worst, always.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

From where I am sitting now, I was about to type that I swear that I would never in my life ever cancel on any date because I am that desperate yet I am "misunderstood" because everyone else thinks I "would" cancel -- or at least I remember when I was rejected for them wrongly assuming that "I" presumably didn't like them. But then, I remember that one time few months ago when a girl with whom I was in a hiking trip wanted to invite me to her house and I was repeatedly saying no -- because I had to take the phone call from my mom and I didn't want to tell my mom I am at some strange party. And then there was another time when I was invited to someone's birthday (that person was a guy, but he probably had a lot of girls over at the birthday so why throw away an opportunity to meet one of those girls) but I didn't come because I had an exam in a couple of days. Well that is only two times, not 6, but then again, there were probably only 3 times I was invited anywhere at all, so 2 out of 3 is kind of the same as 6 out of 10 that you described. 

I guess the bottom line is that I DO want to meet people DESPERATELY, but I am horrible in "thinking on my feet". Like with that mom's example I didn't realize I could excuse myself to the bathroom, give her a brief phone call, and then act like my charger went down. Or with the birthday example I should have been more organized and studied for the exam earlier, anyway. But none of those situations is that uncommon. I guess most people just have more social experience than me so that they can handle those properly. Yet, instead of realizing that I don't have social experience, people think I am not interested.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

MaggieRose said:


> Okay, you sound a bit like him. He's almost 25. Have you ever had a girlfriend or a relationship, or does that just seem way too unachievable? I would like to go down that road with him... Do you think there's hope?


Well that depends on the situation and the person.
But with therapy and "really trying", sure..


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## k_wifler (Sep 27, 2006)

@MaggieRose, you've gone through this on this forum numerous times. It's been a while but you haven't made progress? What is it that you're really trying to accomplish here? What is the answer that you're waiting to hear? What approach would you like to use?

People who have long term isolation due to social anxiety tend to be less aware of social cues and more apt to be insensitive to others, while being more sensitive to certain social situations related to their trauma. If you want to socially intuit social anxiety, then you'll have to observe people who have it, and ask them about the events later when they are calm. If they're unaware that they have a problem in that area, their answer won't make sense to you, it may be just as confusing to them as it is to everyone else.

What makes him feel very very calm and relaxed? Do that with him. Maybe help him explore new ways to relax? Don't force things. One of my aunts forced everything, and her guy had a mid life crisis and left her. She has very well behaved children, but they don't want to be like she was as parents. How about you stop stewing and fermenting on the issue, and start trying some of the things that have been suggested to you? There are no guarantees.


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## thelonelystag (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm guilty of this myself.

I literally done this last week to a girl. I lack social skills, no way to sugarcoat it. I have an idea of what should be done and I do try, but I mostly tend to get it wrong and mess things up before they even start. I don't know how to keep things going and if the person on the other end isn't one to initiate we are doomed. I don't turn invitations down when asked to go out, but I obviously give off strong vibes that I am not keen through my lack of communication skills.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

k_wifler said:


> @MaggieRose, you've gone through this on this forum numerous times. It's been a while but you haven't made progress? What is it that you're really trying to accomplish here? What is the answer that you're waiting to hear? What approach would you like to use?
> 
> People who have long term isolation due to social anxiety tend to be less aware of social cues and more apt to be insensitive to others, while being more sensitive to certain social situations related to their trauma. If you want to socially intuit social anxiety, then you'll have to observe people who have it, and ask them about the events later when they are calm. If they're unaware that they have a problem in that area, their answer won't make sense to you, it may be just as confusing to them as it is to everyone else.
> 
> What makes him feel very very calm and relaxed? Do that with him. Maybe help him explore new ways to relax? Don't force things. One of my aunts forced everything, and her guy had a mid life crisis and left her. She has very well behaved children, but they don't want to be like she was as parents. How about you stop stewing and fermenting on the issue, and start trying some of the things that have been suggested to you? There are no guarantees.


This is a pretty good post.

The only thing I would add is that I don't think any healthy relationship is one sided (take that for what it's worth), if you're willing to compromise for him he should be willing to do the same for you. Otherwise it sounds like more of a carer/dependent relationship, which I assume would lead to resentment after a while.


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## Max Seigel (Jul 7, 2015)

Yes I absolutely feel the same way as the guy you're talking about. I was determined to work on my dating and relationship life. I had 1 relationship back in my senior year of high school and she ended up dumping me about 6 months into it. It was so painful and took me nearly 2 years to get over it.
But that breakup made me determined to work on that area of my life. And I did, but it came at a cost. I have asked out probably over 30 girls since then (which may not seem like a lot but for a guy with SA, it is). Out of those 30 girls, I did not get 1 date. Some flat out rejected me. Many seemed interested at first but either lost interest because I acted awkward and unconfident, or agreed to a date but flaked. One in particular I really really liked, and she was very interested at first. But I acted awkward and she lost interest. We went back and fourth for nearly 2 years and she ended up telling me she had a boyfriend. That hurt a hell of a lot.

After nearly 4 years without a date, I finally broke through with this 1 girl. We've been going out since June, 2016. We have gotten very close and both like each other a lot. 

Here's what I realized though. They say you can't love someone until you love yourself. Nope. That's simply not true. The truth is you can't be loved until you love yourself. You won't allow them to love you. You will always make an excuse for it or simply not believe when they tell you they love you. This is what I've been struggling with. In addition, with all those rejections, it seemed like 1 little mistake was all it took for them to lose interest which reinforced my belief that I need to be perfect to be good enough, that I can't make any mistakes. I'm already a perfectionist so it only reinforced my perfectionism. 

So now, I get fearful of losing her. Like if I feel like she isn't showing a lot of interest (i.e. if she doens't say she loves me or misses me, if she responds with "ok" when I'm texting her, or if she hasn't texted me all day), then she must be losing interest. In reality though, I can't and shouldn't expect her to be all over me all the time. Like it's normal to have a lull in the relationship. Each time I get fearful, my fear has always been disproven. She ends up saying she loves me or misses me, or she ends up texting me. So it's obviously my irrational mind.

You have to realize that our brains are wired for survival. They are wired to avoid risk and pain. That's why I feel like I'm doing everything to avoid what happened to me in the past instead of being able to enjoy the moment and the special connection I have with her.

The difference between your guy and me is that I am able to control my thoughts. I don't let them affect my behavior. I recognize that they are irrational and so I don't act irrationally. And I opened up to her about this, but I did so calmly and confidently. And I tried to spin it in a positive light by telling her about how I've improved over the years.

Now what you must realize is that you cannot fix this guy. You know what they say. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can only try to lead him in the right direction. You can only reassure him that you are here to stay. If he still can't trust you and get over his demons, then there is little you can do. 

The worst part about it is that it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. His fears manifests themselves in his behavior, which ultimately causes his fears to come true. It's a vicious cycle and the only one who can stop it is him. As they say, you have to participate in your own rescue.

In conclusion, I say that yes this stuff is normal with people with SA. Because we have a harder time than most making connections, because they are rarer, we value them more and are more fearful of losing them. However, I will also add that it will be even harder for people like me who have been repeatedly rejected, hurt, or abandoned in the past. That only compounds the issue.
I hope this helps give you some perspective on the issue and I hope everything works out for you.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

Thanks for the advice! Problem is, he developed a huge crush on me two years ago and I realised I also had a crush on him. It was so intense we ran away from each other for months. He used to shake, blush, trip over his words, take big deep breaths...he suffered a bit. He's much better now, as we've gotten to know each other slowly. That always seemed to be the deal - let's calm down and get to know each other. 

But last week I asked him out and then got a bit upset when he said, "Yes, I can but I'm really busy with work and personal stuff now, and we should go when the weather's cooler." It seemed like he was making an excuse, so I said, "If you don't want to go, that's fine, it sounds to be like you don't." I think he got upset as since then he's been trying to push me away. Tried to chat with him yesterday, told him I was persevering because I'm stubborn and asked him if that was a good thing, and he said, "sort of". He continued to give me one-word answers to questions, so I said he obviously wasn't in the mood to chat. He told me I was assuming things and blaming him when he said I was correct and he doesn't understand me at all. I said there was no blaming whatsoever, I was just trying to figure out what he was feeling. I asked him if he still wanted to be friends and he said I bring that up every week. Like he was trying to pick a fight. I was very calm, just told him I'll give him space for a few weeks and to have a good evening. 

I am just not capable of going through any more stuff with him right now! He's pushing me away hard, so he must just go and do what he needs to do! I like your idea of logic and rationality, though. I do try that to some extent and don't get overly emotional. As he has never had a relationship, I'm not sure what he expects, to be honest. I will see how he is after a few weeks. I will send him a birthday greeting on 12 February. 

Thanks for your help!


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

Everything you've said is true and you're 100% correct about how he fears this friendship will go the same way as the others - he seems to try to make it happen just to 'prove' to himself how right he is about people! 

This part was the best: 
"You have to realize that our brains are wired for survival. They are wired to avoid risk and pain. That's why I feel like I'm doing everything to avoid what happened to me in the past instead of being able to enjoy the moment and the special connection I have with her."

I think he is definitely in avoidance mode, trying not to feel any pain - he would rather push me away and hurt me than feel that pain again. I once again reiterated that there are only two things that would make me stop being friends with him: if he stabbed me in the back, or if he told me he didn't want to be friends. I thought that might reassure him. But he said, "Okay but you bring that up what feels like every week." I said, yes, I do bring it up sometimes to reinforce it with you because you seem not to believe me." I asked him if our agreement still stands (we made an agreement to help each other heal), and he said, "Yes." So I said, "Well, then I am going to persevere." And he said, "Your choice." I said, "Yes, I choose to because I want to, but it is also your choice!" I think he goes into a spin and just feels helpless, like everything is spiralling out of control. But I didn't attack him or say anything hurtful, I just said, "Hey, we've just had a fight. How exciting!" and then I said I would give him time and space to do his own thing for a few weeks, and good luck with the work, and I'd connect with him down the line. I want him to know I'm there for him despite his difficult personality, his moods, his withdrawing. I hope that is the outcome - that he knows I do care, even if I did get my ego trodden on there. 

It sounds like you're really mature and wise about your own situation and well done for breaking through your barriers! I think that's so awesome. You are so right - until you love yourself, you cannot open up to and love someone else. Even if this guy isn't ultimately right for me, I do want him to know that he was loved and supported through everything. I am so acutely aware that anything I do could damage him further. He is terribly damaged, with his mom and brother trying to kill themselves a few times, plus his dad being hijacked and shot and almost killed and he felt really helpless - it took him years just to get over his anger about having no control. He has huge abandonment issues which he said began in childhood because he was an unwanted child. I think he needs intensive therapy, and he has admitted he does but is not yet ready to trust a therapist! 

I know I can't fix him, but I do want to be his support and his friend. I will see him at martial arts training tonight and will just be my usual calm, happy-go-lucky self. I won't let my emotions control me, as sad as I am! I don't want him to feel rejected, despite everything. 

Thanks for the advice. This part was also beautifully put: 
"Because we have a harder time than most making connections, because they are rarer, we value them more and are more fearful of losing them. However, I will also add that it will be even harder for people like me who have been repeatedly rejected, hurt, or abandoned in the past. That only compounds the issue."


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Max Seigel said:


> After nearly 4 years without a date, I finally broke through with this 1 girl. We've been going out since June, 2016. We have gotten very close and both like each other a lot.


Congratulations, it's good to hear that perseverance can pay off sometimes.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

I'm trying to understand him and gaining a variety of different insights helps with that. I'm not trying to 'force things'. I'm just trying to understand why he has difficulties going out with me. I have asked him if I should stop asking him, and he said no, I should not stop. Is that 'forcing', asking a friend to go places with you? We had a great time two weeks before that and I'd like to understand why it was suddenly complicated to imagine going out again. I'm trying to be patient and understanding towards a guy with SA, but apparently I'm doing something wrong, in your book? *shrugs*



k_wifler said:


> @MaggieRose, you've gone through this on this forum numerous times. It's been a while but you haven't made progress? What is it that you're really trying to accomplish here? What is the answer that you're waiting to hear? What approach would you like to use?
> 
> People who have long term isolation due to social anxiety tend to be less aware of social cues and more apt to be insensitive to others, while being more sensitive to certain social situations related to their trauma. If you want to socially intuit social anxiety, then you'll have to observe people who have it, and ask them about the events later when they are calm. If they're unaware that they have a problem in that area, their answer won't make sense to you, it may be just as confusing to them as it is to everyone else.
> 
> What makes him feel very very calm and relaxed? Do that with him. Maybe help him explore new ways to relax? Don't force things. One of my aunts forced everything, and her guy had a mid life crisis and left her. She has very well behaved children, but they don't want to be like she was as parents. How about you stop stewing and fermenting on the issue, and start trying some of the things that have been suggested to you? There are no guarantees.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

MaggieRose said:


> I'm trying to understand him and gaining a variety of different insights helps with that. I'm not trying to 'force things'. I'm just trying to understand why he has difficulties going out with me. I have asked him if I should stop asking him, and he said no, I should not stop. Is that 'forcing', asking a friend to go places with you? We had a great time two weeks before that and I'd like to understand why it was suddenly complicated to imagine going out again. I'm trying to be patient and understanding towards a guy with SA, but apparently I'm doing something wrong, in your book? *shrugs*


 @k_wifler can speak for himself but I don't think you've done anything wrong per se.

I think it comes down to this



MaggieRose said:


> I think he is definitely in avoidance mode, trying not to feel any pain - he would rather push me away and hurt me than feel that pain again.


I think you've done all that could be reasonably expected of you, if he isn't ready to take the risk of being hurt then there's not much you can do. It might be time to move on in that respect (you can still be supportive of one another), if he changes while you're still single then maybe things could progress but if not, that's just life. I assume you would want to be in a relationship where he is also making an effort, no?


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

Yes, absolutely. In fact, I've decided to just take a break. I have indeed done all I can. I'm tired. Just a week ago he said he had very little sleep as he was excited for the future. Now this. It's a roller-coaster. He gives, then he suddenly stops, reverses, and shuts down. He told me he could only cope with a little bit of progress at a time. I'm not giving up on the friendship, just taking a vacation. Will still see him at the dojo and will be friendly, but won't reach out/contact him unless he seeks it. This has always been our pattern, anyway (I hold back, he gives me a sign/green light, I go forward).



LonelyLurker said:


> @k_wifler can speak for himself but I don't think you've done anything wrong per se.
> 
> I think it comes down to this
> 
> I think you've done all that could be reasonably expected of you, if he isn't ready to take the risk of being hurt then there's not much you can do. It might be time to move on in that respect (you can still be supportive of one another), if he changes while you're still single then maybe things could progress but if not, that's just life. I assume you would want to be in a relationship where he is also making an effort, no?


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Maybe I'm unusual, but I tend to push people away not because I'm afraid of being hurt by them, but because I'm afraid of hurting them. I'm aware of how much pain I'm capable of inflicting on a person, and as I have no desire to harm people I care for, I often find myself averse to the idea of dating them. Friendship lasts longer and is less likely to end up in painful heartbreak.


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## Twilightforce (Aug 7, 2016)

What a spoiled little brat. I wish I a women who wanted to go out with me.


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## SparklingWater (Jan 16, 2013)

Absolultey normal for me. I hope I'm getting a bit better though. It started with turning down all invitations, then finally people stopped inviting me. Then calling me at all. Then I became more and more isolated in general. Now I shut down immediately before pple have an interest in getting to know me. Everyone is automatically 10 arms length away from me. I've built a pretty big emotional wall. I'm chipping away at it though. Ever so sloooooowly lol. Anyway point is his behaviour is entirely normal for SA in my estimation.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

I think you should give him a chance with relationship too, not just friendship. Because the mistakes that he made are very similar to the mistakes I am making, but then I agonize for months on how desperate I am to have a redo. If anyone were to give me a chance for a redo, I would totally do it. I think he might to.

Let me spell out our similarities:



MaggieRose said:


> But last week I asked him out and then got a bit upset when he said, "Yes, I can but I'm really busy with work and personal stuff now, and we should go when the weather's cooler."


I do that too, and in my case I LITERALLY mean I am busy. As I said in other posts I am theoretical physicist and my time management is awful. This, in combination with bluntness that goes along with Asperger, means that if I am behind on my work and am busy, I would exactly what he said (even worse: I wouldn't add "maybe later" the way he did) but this doesn't change the fact that I really AM busy and really AM wanting to see the other person next time.

Case in point: a couple of months ago a girl wanted to spend time with me at her place after the two of us were in a mountain trip arranged by her ex. I said I was buys. Then I was agonizing for the subsequent months, all the way till now, how perfect things could have been if only I came and how desperate I am for her to ask me out again.



MaggieRose said:


> It seemed like he was making an excuse, so I said, "If you don't want to go, that's fine, it sounds to be like you don't." I think he got upset as since then he's been trying to push me away.


When I ACCIDENTALLY push people away I get upset too, and then I am trying to "make up" for being a "victim" (when I push them away "accidentally") to being a "stronger party" (when I push them away on purpose). I know this is not a healthy way of dealing with things since all it does is ruin things completely which is NOT what I want. I mean I might feel like a crap at the moment when I lose my temper, but thats not how I would feel later on. In fact, after something like this happens, I end up agonizing for months on how much I want to undo it and I would totally undo it if given a chance.

But obviously I DO care about the other person: if I didn't, it wouldn't be worth throwing temper tantrum over. So he, too, cares about seeing you. Thats why he got so upset when you said "its okay you don't have to see me". You see, if I was trying to just make an excuse not to see the other person, I won't be upset over "its okay you don't have to see me" like: I would be happy that I am finally out of it. But if I DO want to see the other person and I get that line, then oh yeah I would get upset, and react similarly to the way he did.



MaggieRose said:


> Tried to chat with him yesterday, told him I was persevering because I'm stubborn and asked him if that was a good thing, and he said, "sort of". He continued to give me one-word answers to questions, so I said he obviously wasn't in the mood to chat. He told me I was assuming things and blaming him when he said I was correct and he doesn't understand me at all. I said there was no blaming whatsoever, I was just trying to figure out what he was feeling. I asked him if he still wanted to be friends and he said I bring that up every week. Like he was trying to pick a fight.


Thats how I react when I feel like someone rejected me and I want them to "make up" for rejection with "extra attention". The way I get said "extra attention" is by acting cold, HOPING that they would try and chase after me, and that way by experiencing them chasing after me (as opposed to me chasing after them) I can try and "make up" for the feeling that I am being rejected.

I will give you an example. Back in 2005 one girl put me into a friendzone. But we were still very close. So what I did was I deliberately didn't show up when she was waiting to meet me at the library, and then when she was giving me repeated phone calls asking where I am, I was telling her I was in the library and will come in a minute -- while in reality I was at home without any intention of going to the library -- and I also deliberately made my voice sound as if I am sick in order to get her to worry about me. Now, if I really wanted to avoid her, I would have turned off my phone, but I didn't: I was GLAD she was calling me minute after minute after minute since it made me feel good that this time the shoe is on the other foot. But then when things switched back around and she was the one giving me cold shoulder I was disappointed and then I was in a bargainging mode thinking "look I was stupid that I did such obviously STUPID thing with her. But now that I see how utternly stupid I was, I swear that if only she were to talk to me just a little bit I would not do that any more" but that was too late.

Now the point I am trying to make is that I DID love her. The evidence for it is that I was obsessing about her for TEN YEARS ever since (even though our interaction lasted only a month or so) and was bringing her up to all the girls I had during those ten years! The point is that I simply DIDN"T SEE the full impact of what I was doing on her. I mean looking back I can saw "oh wow, she was super patien with me, how did i even have audacity to act that way, and then had an audacity to complain why she eventually gave up on me" (by the way it took a lot longer to get her to give up than just that incident described). But back then I didn't see it. So now that I do see it I can honestly tell you I would never ever do that, but of course she doesn't believe me (or I assume she doesn't: I mean I can't know since she no longer replies to my emails). So maybe he will also eventually see what he did wrong just like I do. Thats why I think he should eventually get a second chance to have a relationship with you.



MaggieRose said:


> You are so right - until you love yourself, you cannot open up to and love someone else.


I don't agree with this either. Even though lots of people say this, I know for a fact that with me its just the opposite. If I don't love myself then I WOULD love someone else TEN TIMES MORE than I would otherwise. Why? Because that other person will be the one to change me from a complete train wreck to a happy person! That is the best reason of all to love her! On the other hand, how can I possibly love myself if I don't have someone else that can be there to support me? People are telling me to just psych myself up to love myself, well I can't! And besides this advice is hypocritical. It is MUCH EASIER to love myself when someone else loves me than it is to love myself all on my own. So why ask me to do something harder if they think I can't do something easier?

Okay I realize that he wasn't very cooperative. But trying to get him to be cooperative is easier than trying to get him to do something as impossible as getting himself out of the lake by his own hair. I mean I am speaking as someone who did even worse things to that girl in 2005. And I can tell you: it would have been A LOT EASIER to stop myself from those temper tantrums and be nice to her, than to face an impossible challenge of loving myself by myself that I am facing now. Same goes for your bf I presume.



MaggieRose said:


> I know I can't fix him


Another thing I disagree with. I would much rather for someone else to fix me than to fix myself which is an impossible task. I know he isn't cooperating, but learning to cooperate with the external help is easier task than learning to fix oneself internally without any outside support.


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## herk (Dec 10, 2012)

i try


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

truant said:


> Maybe I'm unusual, but I tend to push people away not because I'm afraid of being hurt by them, but because I'm afraid of hurting them. I'm aware of how much pain I'm capable of inflicting on a person, and as I have no desire to harm people I care for, I often find myself averse to the idea of dating them. Friendship lasts longer and is less likely to end up in painful heartbreak.


I dunno, I am similar. In my recent relationship I was very wary for a long time because of my OCD and uncertainty. Maybe that is a little different to you, but it definitely resulted in me being overly cautious about it because I didn't want to get down the road and change my mind and hurt them.

Of course, I had secretly fallen for her quite badly without being really aware of it, so it was very painful for me when she ended it. Good job Bob


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## Malek (Oct 4, 2012)

Mostly it's been the opposite for me, I push away the girls I like because I get too "emotionally attached" and "clingy" so that's a major turn off. 

Obviously if I practiced martial arts again for years and ignored / pushed away women, perhaps I'd eventually have more luck and maybe one girl irl would like me despite my social ineptitude heh.

I hope he finds happiness and learns to trust you someday...


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

Kevin001 said:


> I don't know about pushing people away, people just tend to leave me over time.


Same, with one exception.

If it is a romantic partner, they are my best friend and get all the attention I can give.

If it's a platonic friend, I don't push them away, but I can't seem to give the relationship what it needs to keep going.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

splendidbob said:


> I dunno, I am similar. In my recent relationship I was very wary for a long time because of my OCD and uncertainty. Maybe that is a little different to you, but it definitely resulted in me being overly cautious about it because I didn't want to get down the road and change my mind and hurt them.
> 
> Of course, I had secretly fallen for her quite badly without being really aware of it, so it was very painful for me when she ended it. Good job Bob


I've noticed a pattern in my own relationships and it's made me very sensitive to certain kinds of situations.

I don't generally pursue people; I never have. But since I don't like to see people unhappy, I generally do my best to cheer people up. The problem is that some of these people are very unhappy and I guess they see having a relationship with me as a way to keep the pep talks flowing.

One of two things then happens: either I have to painfully reject them (undoing all the good feelings) or I end up dating them (and feeling like I'm taking advantage of them). If I do date them, they eventually realize how dysfunctional I actually am, become disillusioned with me, get angry about all the time they've "wasted", and leave me.

Since both of these things have happened multiple times, I just instinctively recoil from similar situations these days. I often feel reluctant even to help people, because I'm afraid they're going to become emotionally invested in me. I have absolutely no desire to get into another relationship where my primary role is to serve as somebody's therapist, but as this tends to be the sole thing people find attractive about me, it puts me in a bit of a bind romantically.


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## k_wifler (Sep 27, 2006)

@MaggieRose, it's not what I meant, but whatever, float along little birdy...

I feel like you're describing my dynamic with my family. Being around people makes me tense, I used to get severe headaches every time I went to the store to get something because of my social anxiety. My family didn't know this, they just thought I got headaches a lot. I would sweat so much in public places that I would become dehydrated within an hour, even if I was ignoring the anxiety, it didn't even help to lessen the effects. Sometimes I would go on a huge euphoric high and enjoy the situation, but that only led to much much worse down time that made me regret ever going out at all. This is what your description of the push and pull of the relationship made me think of.

Now I know that I have to properly hydrate before going out, and anxiety meds helped a lot, and getting proper nutrition the day before is absolutely essential. You see, social encounters for someone with social anxiety, can often be like a strenuous sports or other exercise where you give it your all, in my case, I did it for my family because it was what they considered to be normal behavior. They didn't understand that I was damaging my body with stress overloads, and when I had to say no in order to protect my health, or because I was already feeling too sick to cooperate, they resented me for it, they showed disappointment and blame toward me, they shamed me.

IDK maybe that's what you wanted to read...


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

truant said:


> I've noticed a pattern in my own relationships and it's made me very sensitive to certain kinds of situations.
> 
> I don't generally pursue people; I never have. But since I don't like to see people unhappy, I generally do my best to cheer people up. The problem is that some of these people are very unhappy and I guess they see having a relationship with me as a way to keep the pep talks flowing.
> 
> ...


You may be able to help me understand something (I promise not to get emotionally invested), obviously anyone with dating/relationship experience can answer too (the more the merrier).

I've never really understood why people don't just put all of their cards on the table at the beginning and make a decision based on that. I understand that you're not supposed to but why? Why are people scared to admit to having certain issues or desires at the outset? The obvious answer is vulnerability and a fear of rejection but that doesn't seem to make sense either. Everyone has issues (I guess there could be exceptions but I'm certainly not aware of them), it's just whether you can tolerate them or not and if you wait for months/years to reveal the truth, you'd just get rejected then, no?

It just seems like a very inefficient way of accomplishing a goal (finding someone you're compatible with). If someone I liked were to express interest and tell me what they wanted out of a relationship (whether it's marriage, kids, someone who can financially support the family, someone who's emotionally available or whatever) and/or what they saw as issues (they can be insecure sometimes, they keep ending up in abusive relationships etc. etc.), we could talk about it and I could make an informed decision. If I get upset later on if it turns out that they are exactly as they described, that would be my fault as they told me from the outset and my gamble of being able to change them didn't pay off. If we're not compatible and therefore don't pursue a relationship we've saved time, obviously she could make the same decision and do the same to me.

Again, I understand that you shouldn't do it (so I wouldn't) as it's supposed to scare people off, but why? Are most people holding out hope for Mr/Mrs perfect and don't want to face the likely reality of compromise during the honeymoon phase? Do most people not actually know what they want meaning that they wouldn't make good decisions? Is it something else entirely?

So, those of you lucky enough to have had first hand experience, please educate me.:smile2:


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> You may be able to help me understand something (I promise not to get emotionally invested), obviously anyone with dating/relationship experience can answer too (the more the merrier).
> 
> I've never really understood why people don't just put all of their cards on the table at the beginning and make a decision based on that. I understand that you're not supposed to but why? Why are people scared to admit to having certain issues or desires at the outset? The obvious answer is vulnerability and a fear of rejection but that doesn't seem to make sense either. Everyone has issues (I guess there could be exceptions but I'm certainly not aware of them), it's just whether you can tolerate them or not and if you wait for months/years to reveal the truth, you'd just get rejected then, no?
> 
> ...


I don't think there's a single reason. Here are a few I can think of:

1. fear of rejection/shame (ie. they withhold even though they know it's a bad idea)
2. sometimes people aren't aware that they have problems (eg. many abusers don't see themselves as being abusive, many addicts don't realize they have addictions, many people with mental disorders don't realize they have disorders, etc.).
3. sometimes people are aware they have problems, but overestimate their ability to handle their problems, so they feel like they don't need to disclose them (ie. "It's going to be different this time.")
4. some people are pathological and feel no ethical qualms about not sharing their problems
5. many people don't consider their own behaviors problematical, even though others do, so they wouldn't think to share them
6. many people simply don't really know what they want; they're afraid to say they want or don't want things in case they change their mind, or they feel open to possibilities and then discover later that they don't like it
7. it goes against social etiquette; some people just find it in poor taste to 'lay it all out' -- it spoils the mystery/romance (or something)

I used to hide everything that people would find objectionable, but I'm no longer willing to do that, as my relationships up to this point have been far from satisfying. It's hard to feel loved when your partner is in love with an artificial construct that bears almost no resemblance to the real you. So from now on I'm being upfront about everything. I don't want any more lies or evasions. It's not worth it. But I'll probably never know if it's a better or worse strategy, since I don't foresee anyone taking an interest in any case.


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## Blue Dino (Aug 17, 2013)

Yeah it sounds like he has some intense abandonment issues like you say. To the point that he is looking at things only in his own perspective when he's at his worst. It is good news that he seems to be admitting his faults though and has already admit his openness to therapy. Maybe he has lots of abandonment history growing up. Something he only can learn to adjust. Therapy would indeed probably be the best route for him.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

truant said:


> I don't think there's a single reason. Here are a few I can think of:
> 
> 1. fear of rejection/shame (ie. they withhold even though they know it's a bad idea)
> 2. sometimes people aren't aware that they have problems (eg. many abusers don't see themselves as being abusive, many addicts don't realize they have addictions, many people with mental disorders don't realize they have disorders, etc.).
> ...


Your suggestions would mirror many of the things I've observed. Do you think that the majority of people fall into at least one of those categories, and if so what do you think stops us from transcending (this word seems a little weighted but I can't think of a better one) these flaws? I'm guilty of the last one myself in the sense that I follow social etiquette even though I find much of it to be counter productive and silly.

I understand why you don't hold out much hope for your romantic prospects and couldn't really say anything other than cliches, so I hope you're wrong and I'll leave it at that. Obviously you can't know if the completely honest approach would be superior or not but what would be your educated guess?

Again, this question is open to everyone.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of insight I was after. So basically, to your mind, he is not trying to get rid of me (because then why chat with me at all?), but get extra attention because I appeared to be rejecting him? That would kind of make sense. Also, he knows I always stick around (I told him I would), so he has some leeway in terms of doing this stuff! He told me not so long ago, "I'm amazed you haven't given up on me and all my ****, most people would have given up a long time ago."

I do have the feeling that, if I were to reject/abandon him outright, he would crash. I think he would take it very hard as he did on one previous occasion when he thought I had walked.

This is the reason why I cannot walk away, as hurt as I am. I do not want to damage him more than he's already damaged (plus of course I care about him a helluva lot and have done for two years).

So your advice would be, hang in there?



causalset said:


> I think you should give him a chance with relationship too, not just friendship. Because the mistakes that he made are very similar to the mistakes I am making, but then I agonize for months on how desperate I am to have a redo. If anyone were to give me a chance for a redo, I would totally do it. I think he might to.
> 
> Let me spell out our similarities:
> 
> ...


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

truant said:


> Maybe I'm unusual, but I tend to push people away not because I'm afraid of being hurt by them, but because I'm afraid of hurting them. I'm aware of how much pain I'm capable of inflicting on a person, and as I have no desire to harm people I care for, I often find myself averse to the idea of dating them. Friendship lasts longer and is less likely to end up in painful heartbreak.


That's interesting. He did say to me he wants to heal because he doesn't want to hurt people any more. I remember that now.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

realisticandhopeful said:


> Absolultey normal for me. I hope I'm getting a bit better though. It started with turning down all invitations, then finally people stopped inviting me. Then calling me at all. Then I became more and more isolated in general. Now I shut down immediately before pple have an interest in getting to know me. Everyone is automatically 10 arms length away from me. I've built a pretty big emotional wall. I'm chipping away at it though. Ever so sloooooowly lol. Anyway point is his behaviour is entirely normal for SA in my estimation.


Great, thanks. Well, it's not great 'cos obviously I wish it weren't so for your sake! Doesn't sound great to have built such a huge wall around yourself. And it does sound like my friend. I hope you can chip away at it! Good luck.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> Your suggestions would mirror many of the things I've observed. Do you think that the majority of people fall into at least one of those categories, and if so what do you think stops us from transcending (this word seems a little weighted but I can't think of a better one) these flaws? I'm guilty of the last one myself in the sense that I follow social etiquette even though I find much of it to be counter productive and silly.
> 
> I understand why you don't hold out much hope for your romantic prospects and couldn't really say anything other than cliches, so I hope you're wrong and I'll leave it at that. Obviously you can't know if the completely honest approach would be superior or not but what would be your educated guess?
> 
> Again, this question is open to everyone.


I would say that almost everyone is subject to one or more of these conditions, but that people vary widely in the degree to which they're affected.

I don't think there's any systematic way that people can transcend these limitations. It depends on their self-awareness, values, etc. Many people are simply not aware that they're withholding things or think there's anything wrong with withholding things or believe it's a bad idea to disclose things. You can't get people to fix something if they don't think it's broken.

If you are aware that you have a trait or preference that many people may find objectionable I personally think it's better to make that information available as soon as possible. I put a bunch of those characteristics in my About Me so that people who had issues with any of those things wouldn't waste their time speculating. But that's because I'm trying to avoid harm. I think if everyone disclosed more about themselves upfront it would be much easier for people to find people who were more likely to be compatible.

But that's still theoretical. I'm not sure you can reduce compatibility to a list of bullet points. It might be a good start, but people are incredibly complex, and it's not unusual for people who seem highly incompatible on the surface to have satisfying relationships. And there's also the issue that many people refuse to compromise; those people are likely to pass over people who advertise their flaws and "hope for the best" with people who decline to advertise flaws. No doubt this is the primary reason why people are averse to disclosing them.

Edit: Sorry for the derail, OP.


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## causalset (Sep 11, 2016)

MaggieRose said:


> So your advice would be, hang in there?


Yes exactly.

And also try to discuss things with him more. I mean in my case the reason I act out is that people refuse to openly discuss what went wrong so then I get frustrated. So maybe he feels the same way. Maybe he is mad at you about your not believing him that he was busy and this is what caused him to be acting out ever since. So perhaps you could bring up that "initial" incident that "started" it (the "I am busy" incident) explain where misunderstanding was, explain how he can avoid this misunderstanding in future, and also figure out together that if such misunderstanding does arize how to better handle it.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

truant said:


> I would say that almost everyone is subject to one or more of these conditions, but that people vary widely in the degree to which they're affected.
> 
> I don't think there's any systematic way that people can transcend these limitations. It depends on their self-awareness, values, etc. Many people are simply not aware that they're withholding things or think there's anything wrong with withholding things or believe it's a bad idea to disclose things. You can't get people to fix something if they don't think it's broken.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I would tend to agree with the general sentiment.

As for the compatibility thing, I mean being aware of what your deal breakers are (both in terms of what you need and what you will allow) more than having an extensive list (compromise can be found in the rest).

Anyway, thanks for the input, I'll let the thread continue for it's intended purpose.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

causalset said:


> Yes exactly.
> 
> And also try to discuss things with him more. I mean in my case the reason I act out is that people refuse to openly discuss what went wrong so then I get frustrated. So maybe he feels the same way. Maybe he is mad at you about your not believing him that he was busy and this is what caused him to be acting out ever since. So perhaps you could bring up that "initial" incident that "started" it (the "I am busy" incident) explain where misunderstanding was, explain how he can avoid this misunderstanding in future, and also figure out together that if such misunderstanding does arize how to better handle it.


Thanks. I'll definitely do that. I just want to give him some time/space to sort out what's in his head. He was real friendly to me on Monday night at the dojo, like nothing had happened. If anything, he was nicer than usual (he can be pretty remote towards everyone - it's his default setting). Smiled and laughed at some dumb things I did, not in a nasty way, but just amused. So that was good. There may be hope.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

Thanks, everyone, for the insights. Very valuable to me. I appreciate your taking the time. I feel like I have learnt a lot and have a better plan of action now.


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## Em3ricA (Jan 22, 2017)

MaggieRose said:


> So the guy I like, who has SA, is the most amazing guy I've ever met, BUT ever since I have known him he has pushed people away because of his SA. He literally has only three friends, two guys he's known since childhood, and me. And he even tries to push me away if I ignore him and he thinks I am rejecting or abandoning him. It is so bad that he struggles to go out with me, even though he says he wants to. He says no or cancels about 6 times out of 10, even though when we do actually go out we have such a nice time. I have asked him on many occasions if he will be more comfortable if I just stop suggesting going places, and he said thanks but no, he can't ever ask me to do so because we're in each other's lives for a reason and we have an agreement to help each other heal and he honours that. At the same time, he knows that I am sad that he pushes me away, but seems incapable of fixing it. He has enormous abandonment issues, to the extent that if I don't contact him for even five days he thinks I've given up on him and starts to ignore me or freeze me out. He has admitted to all his problems and issues, and is very logical and rational, but then again seems incapable of changing, even though he is in a lot of pain. He's not in therapy currently, but admits he needs to go.
> 
> Is this kinda normal stuff with SA?


Dang that sounds like me. I'm 29 with two high school friends that i go out and drink a lot with and my girlfriend. I react the same and my gf says I have abandonment issues. She is currently trying to place me in therapy and im willing to get help, yet I haven't gone. She tells me I'm very needy. Honestly, I act like I don't care about her but if she doesn't seek for me I'm ready to break up with her. My advice is, it's not you it's him. Don't worry to much about it. I notice I push-pull in the relationship. He wants to know his worth. Just keep showing him that you care and thing will work themselves out. I do this with my girlfriend all the time. They are just trust issues.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

Yeah, it is SA, the extreme automatic negative thoughts blinding his ability to think rationally or perhaps just don't give in to those false automatic negative thoughts, yes people like this are pretty much stuck in this vicious cycles. CBT will help him if he tries it for sure, sometimes medication can really open a person up faster -- happened to me. Aww, yeah pretty much if you really like him just be there for him and help him seek treatment be it short term medication with CBT or just CBT or short term meds. I would be like this too if I never would have learned to think differently/perceive the world and my self differently. It's like a crack of a stone wall of sunshine which will crack slowly piece by piece with time and positive reinforcement and exposure to get him feeling safe about his feelings and situations/environments which causes SA. I'm sure he will start to feel safe too, and things will be easier for him. I hope he will see how much you were there to support him and he will look back at the real genuine time you put into for him and he will feel so grateful and repay you positively with tears of joy. You know, I always cry when someone helps me to relieve my social anxiety in any small way. You cry because you feel a little relief and love from someone who helped make life a little easier for you to be able to really live the way you want without any negative self doubts or irrational poisoning thoughts. ****ing beautiful life man. He will start to love life too, I hope and then you guys will start to have alot of fun together and he will be able to trust you more I hope.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> I can't really tell you if it's common or not, sorry.
> *
> However, I can tell you that I used to do something similar. Essentially I was anticipating rejection, so if someone seemed to be showing interest (of any kind) I would assume that they were either just being nice and I was imposing upon them or that they had yet to realise their mistake but when they did the rejection would be forthcoming. As I was waiting for the rejection, anything that could be taken as rejection would be greeted with a thought along the lines of "Aaand there it is, I'll just leave them alone so things don't get awkward". So it wasn't so much that I was pushing people away, I genuinely saw it as a way to allow people to escape without making things difficult, that I was doing them a favour.
> *
> ...


Yeah same here, every single time when I was closed off and not able to date. I can't talk to them, they think I am weird, they want to date me? Wow no way, they're just staring at me, pitying my **** existence.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

Demon Soul said:


> I do this as well to people. I can also do that if I see the person enjoying themselves with someone other than me.. That's usually a bigger problem because most people hang with more than one person, and this is how the downward spiral starts. I see them happy with someone else and then I'll stop talking to them, and then they feel like I don't like them and then the whole relationship falls apart piece by piece.
> 
> I just want the person aaall to myself >: )
> 
> At the same time this is something I will never mention to the person I am talking to, because I don't want them to feel like they shouldn't be able to talk to any person they want (because they absolutely should able to talk to anyone they want).


Yeah, I used to feel that way too, I wanted them all to myself and if even for a second they were more happy with one of their friends who was a girl.... It would hit me so negatively, damn I needed a chill pill. But that's just how you are with extreme SA. And yeah, feels so relieving when you can accept it that they need to be able to talk to whoever they want and do whatever they want, but back then I was missing this small acceptance and piece for myself to feel good when this would happen. I tell you, it feels so good to be able to let them do this, I feel so ****ing good myself to be able to do this to others and not feel stuck with one person. That fantasy just isn't healthy.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

MaggieRose said:


> Thanks for the advice! Problem is, he developed a huge crush on me two years ago and I realised I also had a crush on him. It was so intense we ran away from each other for months. He used to shake, blush, trip over his words, take big deep breaths...he suffered a bit. He's much better now, as we've gotten to know each other slowly. That always seemed to be the deal - let's calm down and get to know each other.
> 
> But last week I asked him out and then got a bit upset when he said, "Yes, I can but I'm really busy with work and personal stuff now, and we should go when the weather's cooler." It seemed like he was making an excuse, so I said, "If you don't want to go, that's fine, it sounds to be like you don't." I think he got upset as since then he's been trying to push me away. Tried to chat with him yesterday, told him I was persevering because I'm stubborn and asked him if that was a good thing, and he said, "sort of". He continued to give me one-word answers to questions, so I said he obviously wasn't in the mood to chat. He told me I was assuming things and blaming him when he said I was correct and he doesn't understand me at all. I said there was no blaming whatsoever, I was just trying to figure out what he was feeling. I asked him if he still wanted to be friends and he said I bring that up every week. Like he was trying to pick a fight. I was very calm, just told him I'll give him space for a few weeks and to have a good evening.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you want to feel good too, so if he keeps pushing you away, and you feel like you're doing too much and even the CBT and or meds don't help him, you can be friends only and find yourself someone more supporting to be in a relationship with. It's really good the way you are approaching everything with calmness and in a relaxed setting, that will always help him feel safe and able to talk about things easily I hope. If you really feel like this is worth it and you feel real positive progress then before long he will get better and everything you 2 worked for even if it was one-sided at times might turn into a real passionate mutually reciprocated relationship. Maybe.


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## k_wifler (Sep 27, 2006)

I'm one of those guys who wants someone who wants me all to herself. Not just because I have no energy to spend on another woman, even for friendship, but probably because I have mommy issues and crave that deep feeling of platonic attraction between two people who care about each other very deeply. I have found several people willing to do this, but sometimes looks and age get in the way and I can't bring myself to ignore those two factors as I'd like.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I hope you aren't not dating other guys because of him. I wouldn't hold my breath that this is going to pan out into a good long term relationship.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

SwtSurrender said:


> Yeah same here, every single time when I was closed off and not able to date. I can't talk to them, they think I am weird, they want to date me? Wow no way, they're just staring at me, pitying my **** existence.


It's not healthy though, I hope you were able to move past it.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> It's not healthy though, I hope you were able to move past it.


Yes, I was, thanks, hope you can too. Now a days I think; **** they want to talk to me cuz I'm cool - okay I will try, oh **** they hitting on me - okay just take it easy and play hard to get, **** they really want to **** me - okay you're doing very well now, calm tfd. Basically, I switched the thoughts around, they do seem too over confident and somewhat can feel false, but so much better to think this than the other devaluing stuff about yourself. At least this way you have some chance to interact with them, since you make yourself feel slightly better/happier.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

SwtSurrender said:


> Yes, I was, thanks, hope you can too. Now a days I think; **** they want to talk to me cuz I'm cool - okay I will try, oh **** they hitting on me - okay just take it easy and play hard to get, **** they really want to **** me - okay you're doing very well now, calm tfd. Basically, I switched the thoughts around, they do seem too over confident and somewhat can feel false, but so much better to think this than the other devaluing stuff about yourself. At least this way you have some chance to interact with them, since you make yourself feel slightly better/happier.


Luckily I was able to move past it. I'm glad you view yourself more positively now but be careful, either extreme can be dangerous.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> Luckily I was able to move past it. I'm glad you view yourself more positively now but be careful, either extreme can be dangerous.


Why is it dangerous in your opinion to be more positive? Thanks.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

SwtSurrender said:


> Why is it dangerous in your opinion to be more positive? Thanks.


It's not that it's dangerous to be more positive per se, positivity is good up to a point. It's only a problem if you get to a point where you refuse to see warning signs because that would be negative or refuse to accept that something is inadequate/unacceptable and needs to be improved/rejected because that would negative. I don't know if any of that applies to you (I hope not) but I think people in general should be careful not to fall into that trap.


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## Azazello (May 12, 2013)

truant said:


> Maybe I'm unusual, but I tend to push people away not because I'm afraid of being hurt by them, but because I'm afraid of hurting them. I'm aware of how much pain I'm capable of inflicting on a person, and as I have no desire to harm people I care for, I often find myself averse to the idea of dating them. Friendship lasts longer and is less likely to end up in painful heartbreak.


I am very much the same; except for friendships, which I find a lot more difficult than romantic relationships and also strongly avoid. I am not closed to the idea of having any relationships, in fact I am in one now, but, given my depression and other anxieties, it is very hard for me to maintain the degree of communication and reciprocation needed for healthy relationships, whilst generally trying not to be a burden and a jerk to them.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Azazello said:


> I am very much the same; except for friendships, which I find a lot more difficult than romantic relationships and also strongly avoid. I am not closed to the idea of having any relationships, in fact I am in one now, but, given my depression and other anxieties, it is very hard for me to maintain the degree of communication and reciprocation needed for healthy relationships, whilst generally trying not to be a burden and a jerk to them.


I like friendships better because I have more control over the amount of contact and intimacy. I find it's much easier to get space when you need it without hurting anyone's feelings (too much) and I like the fact that I'm not preventing them from forming other attachments if they want/need them.

Although I have a lot of experience with monogamous relationships, I find the amount of dependency and pressure almost overwhelming. I'm a pretty unstable person, and have difficulty keeping my own **** together; when another person makes a lot of demands on me emotionally, and requires a lot of security and stability, I find it very difficult to provide an appropriate amount of support. I feel like their happiness revolves around my decisions (ideally it wouldn't, but I haven't met any ideal people), and as my own mental/emotional state is always a precarious balance, it's just too much responsibility. I don't push people away once I'm involved with them, but I do find the experience very taxing and anxiety-inducing. The foreknowledge of the difficulties I can expect to face discourages me from forming future attachments, hence the pushing away between relationships.


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## tea111red (Nov 8, 2005)

yeah.


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## Azazello (May 12, 2013)

@truant

Interesting.

In a sense, I prefer not to have full "_control over the amount of contact and intimacy_", as I have strong avoidant tendencies and if it were up to me would choose no contact over contact each and every time. In that respect, strong structure, obligations, and expectations are good for me, which is why, for instance, I thrive in a work environment and actually cope well with live-in relationships but struggle to maintain any relationships outside, including family ties.

I have similar concerns to yours. My depression can be pretty brutal and the thought of having to keep up appearances for the sake of another human being terrifies me because I can't bear the burden of complicating and adversely influencing their lives, especially if they have their own personal demons. Then again, the pressure to maintain this positive façade can often fool me into a temporary sense of well-being, minimising the effect of my depression. All in all, like you said, it's a precarious balance, made even more difficult by my fear of getting too emotionally attached and dependant on another person. I do not like relinquishing even the slightest bit of control over my mental health as it makes it so much harder to wrestle it back should the relationship break up.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> It's not that it's dangerous to be more positive per se, positivity is good up to a point. It's only a problem if you get to a point where you refuse to see warning signs because that would be negative or refuse to accept that something is inadequate/unacceptable and needs to be improved/rejected because that would negative. I don't know if any of that applies to you (I hope not) but I think people in general should be careful not to fall into that trap.


Mhm I see your point. I remember doing some pretty stupid embarrassing stuff to people when I was too positive. Looking back now, I pretty much ruined my chances of going back to school, in case I come across those people again. No, pretty much that's why I stopped going plus some other stress that I was under at the time. But yes, I agree, I'm trying to keep it low-key these days.


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## Pongowaffle (Jul 23, 2015)

I think I do in many ways. Usually when I know someone for a while. So we began knowing and peeling off more and more layers from each other. The more layers of me are exposed, the more I get anxious and fear the other person would realize how shallow my life is. How shallow my social life is and how boring it is. They will find out how pathetic my life is and begin to distance from me. In most relationships and friendships, once you get past the preliminary stage with me, that is all I have. I have nothing more. So in majority of the cases of people I know, they stop keeping in touch with me because of this after knowing me for a bit.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

Pogowiff said:


> I think I do in many ways. Usually when I know someone for a while. So we began knowing and peeling off more and more layers from each other. The more layers of me are exposed, the more I get anxious and fear the other person would realize how shallow my life is. How shallow my social life is and how boring it is. They will find out how pathetic my life is and begin to distance from me. In most relationships and friendships, once you get past the preliminary stage with me, that is all I have. I have nothing more. So in majority of the cases of people I know, they stop keeping in touch with me because of this after knowing me for a bit.


Mhm same here, but I wouldn't think so bad about how I live my life as the only reason they reject me. In my opinion, the way they live their lives is just as ****ty, I mean they have a job and I don't okay cool. They have 100 friends and I don't have but 1, okay cool. The way I or you live life is just as full and important as anyone else's, that's not the main reason why they reject you. Just remember that they're just people, just like you just like me. Just because one person doesn't like you doesn't mean you have to stop looking. For me I am very happy and if someone doesn't like my way of life they can go take a flying leap. I hope you get to this point of feeling in your life, where you feel like you are enough and won't do anything extra just to be accepted by someone. I do what ever the **** I want, I don't give a **** if they don't like me, it's not the end of the ****ing world.

I have in my mind this feeling that I know I will find the people who I love being around and those who will love being around me. ****ing tired to try to match up and become desirable for some *** hole, just be yourself, there are so many people like us out there, there is nothing wrong with being like this. Yeah, sure, talk to people and have a job and friends sure, but you don't have to feel so bad if they reject you, build your attitude where you will think who cares if they do I know I will find others who won't.

If you keep being scared of rejection, pretty soon you'll stop searching for people cuz you're scared of being rejected always. Omg who cares. Let your true self out to people, keep low-key sure, but be yourself, let it all out. ****ing who cares if some will reject you, let them, but keep looking and keep being yourself. Be proud of who you are, be comfortable with yourself and be happy.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

truant said:


> I don't think there's a single reason. Here are a few I can think of:
> 
> 1. fear of rejection/shame (ie. they withhold even though they know it's a bad idea)
> 2. sometimes people aren't aware that they have problems (eg. many abusers don't see themselves as being abusive, many addicts don't realize they have addictions, many people with mental disorders don't realize they have disorders, etc.).
> ...


That's an awesome list, looks like it covers everything. I'm just like you here, I let them know whatever the **** they want and even more. In my opinion, I would think others would appreciate me more if I tell them everything in the beginning and also I think they would appreciate someone who is open and honest and not looking to waste their time. Some pretty much don't show me any kind of regard here, it seems like anything you might have they just disregard. Maybe my cuteness blinds my perceived problems with mental health? They crazy. I want some kind of connection and understanding from them, but they don't give me anything. I need to stop wasting my time with what seems like brain dead guys.

I understand several people out there who hide stuff just to be accepted, yeah, I used to be like that too. But I don't want to feel that ****ing way anymore, I want to have the power to feel good if I get rejected. Half of the time it seems that you hide stuff and they hide stuff and then your connection is built on false bull. I don't want that, I want real connections with true feelings.


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## WillYouStopDave (Jul 14, 2013)

I don't usually have to.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

truant said:


> Maybe I'm unusual, but I tend to push people away not because I'm afraid of being hurt by them, but because I'm afraid of hurting them. I'm aware of how much pain I'm capable of inflicting on a person, and as I have no desire to harm people I care for, I often find myself averse to the idea of dating them. Friendship lasts longer and is less likely to end up in painful heartbreak.


Yeah, same here.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

truant said:


> I like friendships better because I have more control over the amount of contact and intimacy. I find it's much easier to get space when you need it without hurting anyone's feelings (too much) and I like the fact that I'm not preventing them from forming other attachments if they want/need them.


Yeah same here, took me a long time to realize that this is so much better.



truant said:


> Although I have a lot of experience with monogamous relationships, I find the amount of dependency and pressure almost overwhelming. I'm a pretty unstable person, and have difficulty keeping my own **** together; when another person makes a lot of demands on me emotionally, and requires a lot of security and stability, I find it very difficult to provide an appropriate amount of support. I feel like their happiness revolves around my decisions (ideally it wouldn't, but I haven't met any ideal people), and as my own mental/emotional state is always a precarious balance, it's just too much responsibility. I don't push people away once I'm involved with them, but I do find the experience very taxing and anxiety-inducing. The foreknowledge of the difficulties I can expect to face discourages me from forming future attachments, hence the pushing away between relationships.


Yeah me too. Wow, we are so similar, I hope more people get to this point and see the positiveness.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

SwtSurrender said:


> Mhm I see your point. I remember doing some pretty stupid embarrassing stuff to people when I was too positive. Looking back now, I pretty much ruined my chances of going back to school, in case I come across those people again. No, pretty much that's why I stopped going plus some other stress that I was under at the time. But yes, I agree, I'm trying to keep it low-key these days.


I hope you find (or have already found) the right balance for you. I'm still working on this myself (maybe it's something that you always have to work on as you never reach perfection), so hopefully it doesn't sound like I'm talking down to you or anything.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

LonelyLurker said:


> I hope you find (or have already found) the right balance for you. I'm still working on this myself (maybe it's something that you always have to work on as you never reach perfection), so hopefully it doesn't sound like I'm talking down to you or anything.


No, you're fine, yes it is something I have to work on constantly.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

SwtSurrender said:


> No, you're fine, yes it is something I have to work on constantly.


That's good to know, the last thing I need are enemies.:smile2:


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Azazello said:


> In a sense, I prefer not to have full "_control over the amount of contact and intimacy_", as I have strong avoidant tendencies and if it were up to me would choose no contact over contact each and every time. In that respect, strong structure, obligations, and expectations are good for me, which is why, for instance, I thrive in a work environment and actually cope well with live-in relationships but struggle to maintain any relationships outside, including family ties.
> 
> I have similar concerns to yours. My depression can be pretty brutal and the thought of having to keep up appearances for the sake of another human being terrifies me because I can't bear the burden of complicating and adversely influencing their lives, especially if they have their own personal demons. Then again, the pressure to maintain this positive façade can often fool me into a temporary sense of well-being, minimising the effect of my depression. All in all, like you said, it's a precarious balance, made even more difficult by my fear of getting too emotionally attached and dependant on another person. I do not like relinquishing even the slightest bit of control over my mental health as it makes it so much harder to wrestle it back should the relationship break up.


Our differences are interesting, too.

I have a very contrarian personality, so I tend to feel stifled and oppressed in environments of "strong structure, obligations, and expectations": if you tell me to do something, I'll do the opposite. I'm self-employed now, and while I struggle being productive at times, I enjoy what I do about 1,000x better than my old job as a manager. I don't feel hemmed in on all sides by rigid requirements, which I have an unfortunate tendency to question and reject.

I've always found it necessary to maintain a facade as well, and much of the strain I experience in relationships does come from trying to force this artificial construct into a convincing semblance of a living person. But I experience more strain from what feels like a constant demand for help. I suspect this is not a universal aspect of relationships, but more an artifact of either my own psychological limitations (since I'm always under tremendous pressure), or the particular women I attract, who tend to range anywhere from insecure to severely emotionally distraught. As all of my relationships arose from a context of emotional support, and that habit carried over into the relationship, it became the basis for how we related. Being put in the position of "parent, caretaker, therapist" can be very exhausting.

As a result of these experiences (and at the risk of sounding callous), I have become extremely averse to the idea of dating someone who requires a significant amount of emotional encouragement and support. I simply no longer have the psychological resources to give daily pep talks and talk people down from the ledge. Unfortunately, being what I am, I seem to lack the ability to attract partners who do not require this kind of assistance. If I were to enter into that type of relationship at this point, being as emotionally and mentally unsound as I am, I'm afraid that it would result in more harm than good and I have no wish to be the cause of anyone's undoing. So from now on I'm just resigning myself to dealing with my loneliness as best as I can.

I push people away to protect them from what would no doubt be an unhealthy relationship.



SwtSurrender said:


> Yeah me too. Wow, we are so similar, I hope more people get to this point and see the positiveness.


It's nice to know that I'm not alone.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I don't actually push people away I just start avoiding them if things get uncomfortable for me. I probably have AvPD I'd imagine, I also have certain schizoid like traits. Being close with people is something I like the idea of, but the reality often overwhelms me.

I can manage short bursts of socialising in a certain way sometimes but the problem with this, particularly when starting to get to know people, is they think this is my standard and form an incorrect impression of me. The first week of university I came across this guy (we'd been talking on a forum for the uni beforehand for a short while,) I was quite social and over the space of a weekend he suddenly seemed to feel like we'd be friends forever or something. I couldn't handle that, I hadn't even decided if I really liked him yet. So I disappeared.

I usually get on best with people more or equally introverted as me, that keep me at a distance or that I very slowly get to know over time with no pressure, until I feel very comfortable with them. But so many things can ruin the perfect equilibrium I need that this happens incredibly rarely. Not to mention I seem to attract people I have little in common with often in real life. So most of my connections end in me disappearing and/or never getting that close to them emotionally.

Even if I like someone as a person I might need to take breaks from socialising or getting too close. There are only very few specific people that are an exception to this general rule.

There is more to this, but I've gotten bored writing this post and lost my train of thought now. So this'll do.


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## k_wifler (Sep 27, 2006)

My mouth-hole points straight down, so I tend to hover over the bottomless pit to talk to people, so that my words go alllllll the way down and then back UP out the other side of the planet before it gets to their ears, then they will never know I'm talking down to them at all. >


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## Destormjanina1 (Jan 9, 2017)

More like avoid people when I see that our relationship is going nowhere or that we can't relate. Sometimes I'll just flat out stop talking to people or tell them in a very nice way that our relationship can't go on.


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## Strago (Jan 12, 2017)

I don't push people away, because I don't even get close to them in the first place. At least not in person.  Just too damn afraid.


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## MaggieRose (Nov 30, 2016)

Whoa, okay, so this affects a lot of people! Interesting. On Monday I told my guy with SA that I would contact him a bit less because he seems to be the kind of person who likes a lot of space and time to think about stuff. He seemed to relax a bit after that. I asked him what I can do support him and he said just to be myself because then he'll have a teacher in life and if I do something that he finds uncomfortable he'll look inside himself to see what he's projecting onto me. He's pretty mature and self-aware. I've not contacted him since, will just say hi later today. I think the less pressure the better. The one good thing is, he now knows and understands that we're friends no matter how weird or difficult he gets, haha.


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