# Bodybuilding trainer needed



## cwq (Mar 23, 2011)

Hi folks, 
i am interested in bodybuilding, i have searched the internet but the vast amount of information n misinformation really got me overwhelmed and confused. I cant afford a personal trainer or to subscript to any online program so was just wondering if any expert in this field would like to have a student?


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

cwq said:


> Hi folks,
> i am interested in bodybuilding, i have searched the internet but the vast amount of information n misinformation really got me overwhelmed and confused. I cant afford a personal trainer or to subscript to any online program so was just wondering if any expert in this field would like to have a student?


im willing to help you


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## Avie (Apr 17, 2011)

paulyD said:


> im willing to help you


I'd love to participate in this


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

y u can ask me if u have questions, i've been doing some months bodybuilding, but i'm not that advanced


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

This might be a good opportunity to work on your SA as well as lift. Ask some of the bigger guys at your gym for advice. Most of them love sharing tidbits with smaller guys just starting. 

At the beginning stages though, just try to stay consistent and don't hurt yourself by lifting too much weight. A common mistake to push yourself to hard. You can probably find a million routines online.


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

What are your primary goals? 

1. Are you overweight so that you need to lose fat? or
2. Are you skinny and need to put on muscle? 

In my opinion, unless you're young and still growing it's hard to do both at the same time so you have to prioritize what your goals are. When I was younger I had a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass while fat gain was hardly an issue. As I have gotten older, I've had to watch my diet more carefully because I put on fat much more easily than when I was younger. So, nutrition/diet is far more important now than when I was younger. So, it's important to decide what your goals are at this point in your life before moving to the next step.


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## JimmyDeansRetartedCousin (Nov 28, 2009)

Arnie is stepping down soon, how about him?

Sure he could probably do with the work!


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## LALoner (Dec 3, 2008)

Everything you need to know about weight lifting can prolly fit into one page. But without some experience to go with it that knowledge isn't enough. Just resign yourself to the fact that it will take at least a year to figure out how to do it right. A year for this would be fast. Then after a year of doing things the right way you will plateau. Truthfully, I don't think you can go very far past that plateau without drugs. But people try all kinds of crazy things to bust through. And then they write articles and internet posts about all the stuff they're trying and it confuses beginners.

Plateau breaking without drugs prolly doesn't work. If it does work its a complicated subject with all sorts of methods. But for the average person it doesn't matter. Your muscles decline from inactivity at TWICE the rate they advance from the best possible drug free training.

So after a year of doing things the right way your at your plateau. And then you get a cold. One week off, now it takes two weeks of work to get back to your peak. Then your too busy with work. Then your on a vacation. Then something else comes up. And every time you take time off it takes twice that time to get back to where you were before. So truthfully just staying at your drug free peak is so hard that you don't need any strange plateau busting methods gleaned from the internet.

Unless you are genetically inclined in the direction of muscle building if you can bench and squat your weight 12 times in a row your doing good. But there's always the guy you know who has the right genes and laughs at that and do that without even training. Don't fall into the trap of comparing yourself to others cuz unless your the best at what you do you won't be happy.


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## angus (Dec 18, 2010)

1. Get your form right
2. lift the heavist wieghts you can lift 
3. Eat heaps of meat dairy and eggs (don't waste money on suppliments you need to eat real food)


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## angus (Dec 18, 2010)

^ I tottaly disagree for two reasons
1. long before suppliments guy's were bulking up just on normal healthy diets.
2. If you put full cream milk in a mixer with a raw egg your getting a natuaral dose of good clean high protien, your body can only ingest a certain amount of protein at a time there for adding protein powder to the mix is a waste of time.


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

LALoner said:


> Everything you need to know about weight lifting can prolly fit into one page. But without some experience to go with it that knowledge isn't enough. Just resign yourself to the fact that it will take at least a year to figure out how to do it right. A year for this would be fast. Then after a year of doing things the right way you will plateau. Truthfully, I don't think you can go very far past that plateau without drugs. But people try all kinds of crazy things to bust through. And then they write articles and internet posts about all the stuff they're trying and it confuses beginners.


Totally agree about the things you need to know fitting on one page.

Totally disagree about hitting a plateau after a year, if any one does, they are doing something very wrong.

To the OP, buy BRAWN by Stuart McRoberts, best money you will spend in regards to training.

There is many times more bad advice than good advice on the net, everyone is an 'expert' :roll


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

angus said:


> ^ I tottaly disagree for two reasons
> 1. long before suppliments guy's were bulking up just on normal healthy diets.
> 2. If you put full cream milk in a mixer with a raw egg your getting a natuaral dose of good clean high protien, your body can only ingest a certain amount of protein at a time there for adding protein powder to the mix is a waste of time.


 supplements ARE nessecary in my opinion. show me someone who can prepare 6 wholefood meals per day. were on earth can someone find the time to do that. then on top of that show me someone who can actualy eat 6 whole food meals per day , its very hard.

also taking supplements is easier on your system. a liquid meal is easier to digest than a whole food meal. your body has 3 main functions - digestion, utilization and elimination. if your body is constantly digesting food its not gonna be able to elimate toxins as efficiently or utilize nutrients as efficiently


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## JamesV (Apr 13, 2011)

I'd say it's pretty much a fact that nobody HAS to have protein supplements to gain muscle effectively in the long term, it's just quick easy protein. Everything found in whey powder can be found in milk anyway, since that's where it comes from. I still don't think it's that hard to get 1g protein/1lb bodyweight a day without supplements, especially when you consider a chicken breast has 25-40g of protein, they don't take a great deal of preparation either. Not like I have anything against supplements, I do feel they are overrated though.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

JamesV said:


> I'd say it's pretty much a fact that nobody HAS to have protein supplements to gain muscle effectively in the long term, it's just quick easy protein. Everything found in whey powder can be found in milk anyway, since that's where it comes from. I still don't think it's that hard to get 1g protein/1lb bodyweight a day without supplements, especially when you consider a chicken breast has 25-40g of protein, they don't take a great deal of preparation either. Not like I have anything against supplements, I do feel they are overrated though.


supplements arent needed per say cos yes you can get everything you need from food but the problem is that its too difficult to 1)prepare large quantities of food 2)eat large quantities of food

i would also have to disagree with you that getting 1g protein per pound of body weight is not hard. it is hard. a chicken breast doesnt have 25-40g of protein it has 20g only. the largest tin of tuna you can get only has 30g protein in it. i weigh 180 pound. i just dont see how its possible never mind easy to get 180g protein without supplements.

and dont forget if you are trying to bulk up then you need more than 1g protein per pound of bodyweight.

a protein powder blend of fast and slow release protein gives you 45g per sering. a meal replacement gives you 40g per serving and a weight gainer shake give about 35g per serving. whey gives you 24g per serving , mix it with 250ml milk and youve got over 30g per serving.
if i wanted 40g protein from real food id have to eat 2 full chicken breasts. its just not possible


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Auron said:


> ^ +1
> 
> Not to mention the money. some clean food ain't cheap folks. Without supplements you might as well make a good food budget 'cause you'll be eating a lot of chicken breast :lol


exactly. a chicken breast costs more than double the price of 1 serving of whey protein. and you get slightly more protein in a serving of whey than you do in a chicken breast


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## JamesV (Apr 13, 2011)

It may be low in whey, but it has casein also, which is just as high quality protein, but slower absorbing.


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## Nae (Nov 10, 2003)

It's amusing that a thread on helping a newb out gets bogged down by the same details that plagues many fitness/bodybuilding discussions. On the topic of diet, I think madcow's advice, http://madcow.hostzi.com/Topics/Diet.htm, is practical for people. The takeaway:



> 1) Caloric excess is required
> 2) Your body and weight will change if excess is present (proportion of muscle/fat will depend on training effectiveness)
> 3) If over the period the body did not change - caloric excess was not present
> 4) If you add muscle, your base requirement will change and you will need to eat more to maintain excess
> 5) Do not spend 95% of your effort balancing the 5% minutia, eat a reasonable diet and spend 95% of your effort making sure you are getting enough.


The 'caloric excess' is only useful if your current goal is to gain mass, of course. Also a sort of 95%/5% metaphor probably carries over to a lot of fitness including making sure to lift heavy weights consistently. Worry about the 5% when or if you get to the point of needing to do so.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

i'm more of a weightlifter than a bodybuilder, but there is a lot of overlap between the two. if you want to get big, you have to eat. lifting is the fun part, being consistent with getting good, quality food into your body is what's tough, especially if you work or are a full time student, or both. 

one thing that's really helped me in terms of nutrition is shakes.

throw this into a blender: 2 cups oatmeal + 2 bananas + 2 scoops whey + 1 big spoonful of peanut butter + some milk (i'm not sure how much, i eyeball it) = great as a pre- or post-workout drink.

i also consume TONS of 1% cottage cheese, really nutritious (14g protein/serving is nuts) & simple to make. just combine cottage cheese with your favorite juice in a blender. the only bad thing about cottage cheese is there is quite a bit of sodium, so i will dump the CC into a strainer first and wash all the salt away before consuming.

anyways, as for lifting, really there are a lot of programs that work. but as some previous posters have said, you're going to want a lot of compound lifts in your routine that hit a lot of bodyparts at once and allow you to move a lot of weight. don't just work chest and arms every day, lol. google "starting strength," it's a great beginner's strength program.

finally, i just want to tell you that while getting big may help your confidence, it's not going to be a magical cure for SA. getting past your SA comes from inner strength, not how much you lift and how big your biceps are. 

good luck.


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## Kenjifujima (Apr 30, 2011)

Not to mention the money. some clean food ain't cheap folks. Buy RS Gold RS Gold


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> i'm more of a weightlifter than a bodybuilder, but there is a lot of overlap between the two. if you want to get big, you have to eat. lifting is the fun part, being consistent with getting good, quality food into your body is what's tough, especially if you work or are a full time student, or both.
> 
> one thing that's really helped me in terms of nutrition is shakes.
> 
> ...


''2 cups oatmeal + 2 bananas + 2 scoops whey + 1 big spoonful of peanut butter + some milk'' - _the only thing that will do fo you is make you fat _

''just combine cottage cheese with your favorite juice in a blender'' - _cottage cheese and juice blended. are you serious? thats disgusting. why not just eat the cottage cheese ?_


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## JamesV (Apr 13, 2011)

paulyD said:


> ''2 cups oatmeal + 2 bananas + 2 scoops whey + 1 big spoonful of peanut butter + some milk'' -_the only thing that will do fo you is make you fat _


See statements like that are the reason people argue endlessly on bodybuilding forums xD


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> ''2 cups oatmeal + 2 bananas + 2 scoops whey + 1 big spoonful of peanut butter + some milk'' - _the only thing that will do fo you is make you fat _
> 
> ''just combine cottage cheese with your favorite juice in a blender'' - _cottage cheese and juice blended. are you serious? thats disgusting. why not just eat the cottage cheese ?_


it's true there are a lot of carbs in there, but it has everything you want in a pre- and post-workout shake: clean & healthy carbs and fast-digesting protein. as for the cottage cheese shake, they're delicious. try it some time, tastes just like smoothies.

anyways, i've been using those 2 shakes for the past 4-5 years and have gone from an anorexic 115lbs to a very muscular 190lbs at 5'8". in fact, my plan is to eventually go up to 230lbs, and i'm not worried about getting fat in the slightest. it won't happen if you're lifting intensely and eating healthy, both of which i do. of course, eating a lot without lifting will make you fat.

one thing i have to say is i am a young guy though, so my metabolism is fast enough to burn off a lot of the carbs i consume. if you're older or just have a slow metabolism, eating tons of carbs may not be the strategy for you.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

Auron said:


> :lol i might just give this a try!


remember to flush the sodium away though, get a strainer if you don't have one. extremely delicious, extremely nutritious.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

candrnow said:


> throw this into a blender: 2 cups oatmeal + 2 bananas + 2 scoops whey + 1 big spoonful of peanut butter + some milk (i'm not sure how much, i eyeball it) = great as a pre- or post-workout drink.


For a post work-out drink u need rapid proteins + rapid carbs. Rapid protein u can't exactly get from any food available, just suplemments. With rapid carbs u can find natural sources.

And another thing: mixing rapid carbs with fats is gonna make your stomach go crazy.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> For a post work-out drink u need rapid proteins + rapid carbs. Rapid protein u can't exactly get from any food available, just suplemments. With rapid carbs u can find natural sources.
> 
> And another thing: mixing rapid carbs with fats is gonna make your stomach go crazy.


to be honest, i doubt that "fast protein" makes any real difference, even whey protein takes a long time before it gets absorbed. the most important thing is eating a lot of SOMETHING before and after you work out. i've heard that ronnie coleman just eats cornbread + steak after he trains.


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## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

lmao 

This thread is hilarious, first someone gives an advice, then another person says it is wrong. OP was right about being confused...

In my opinion motivation and discipline are the most important things, because what you avoid is as important as what you do. 

Decide on how you want to look like and then you can easily figure out what you need to do and what you should not do.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

candrnow said:


> to be honest, i doubt that "fast protein" makes any real difference, even whey protein takes a long time before it gets absorbed. the most important thing is eating a lot of SOMETHING before and after you work out. i've heard that ronnie coleman just eats cornbread + steak after he trains.


whey protein has the highest rate of absorption and yeah it makes a difference compared to other sources of protein u eat after training.

what a champion eats is irrelevant. we don't have his genetics, purpose, metabolism, training level, ''candies'', etc. in fact is irrelevant to compare yourself to anyone when advancing in bodybuilding. there are too many variables.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> whey protein has the highest rate of absorption and yeah it makes a difference compared to other sources of protein u eat after training.
> 
> what a champion eats is irrelevant. we don't have his genetics, purpose, metabolism, training level, ''candies'', etc. in fact is irrelevant to compare yourself to anyone when advancing in bodybuilding. there are too many variables.


from personal experience, i think whey is over-rated as something you NEED to get into your body after and/or before working out. i got by fine for months without whey when i would just down cottage cheese (casein protein) + lemonade immediately after working out (an hour later i'd follow up with a big meal), made good gains in both strength and size. do i think i would have made even better gains had i used whey instead? no, i don't.

again, the most important thing is to eat a lot of ANYTHING before and after you work out. too many people think that protein is the key to getting big but it's actually carbs that are important.

and no, it's not true that you can't compare yourself to anyone when "advancing in bodybuilding" due to "too many variables." we're all human. things that work for one person are probably going to work for someone else. if you really believed that, what's the point of even posting in this thread and giving advice? why would strength and bodybuilding forums (where lifters are constantly sharing tips) be so popular? why are there popularly prescribed diets or lifting programs that seem to do well for everyone (i.e. Starting Strength, Mark Rippetoe)? you're 100% wrong about that one.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> from personal experience, i think whey is over-rated as something you NEED to get into your body after and/or before working out. i got by fine for months without whey when i would just down cottage cheese (casein protein) + lemonade immediately after working out (an hour later i'd follow up with a big meal), made good gains in both strength and size. do i think i would have made even better gains had i used whey instead? no, i don't.
> 
> again, the most important thing is to eat a lot of ANYTHING before and after you work out. too many people think that protein is the key to getting big but it's actually carbs that are important.
> 
> and no, it's not true that you can't compare yourself to anyone when "advancing in bodybuilding" due to "too many variables." we're all human. things that work for one person are probably going to work for someone else. if you really believed that, what's the point of even posting in this thread and giving advice? why would strength and bodybuilding forums (where lifters are constantly sharing tips) be so popular? why are there popularly prescribed diets or lifting programs that seem to do well for everyone (i.e. Starting Strength, Mark Rippetoe)? you're 100% wrong about that one.


i dont think the research lies. its been proved that whey protein is very beneficial after working out because of its fast absorbtion. and it has been proven through research that whey is far more benefical to casein post workout

i suspect the reason you got by with having cottage cheese post workout is because you were a beginner. and alos having cottage cheese is better than having nothing. and yes i do beleive you would have got better results with whey

i think you are very mistaken is saying that its very important to eat a lot of ANYTHING before and after you work out. its NOT. before you work out you absolutely do NOT want to eat a lot and what you do eat should not be ''anything'' it should be what you actually need. idealy before a workout you should eat :

*a small meal. not a big one
*slow release protein so that there are amino acids in your system during the workout to prevent the body from goin into a catabolic state 
*slow release carbs to give you the energy you need for the workout

a big meal of just anything will hinder your performance. post workout you need:

*fast release carbs
*fast relase protein 
*absolutely NO fat what so ever

and its very improtant not to go overboard. that shake you suggested earlier would be an absolute nightmare postworkout cos its got far to many carbs, far too many calories and its got fat in it from the peanut butter, plus slow release protein in the milk, and slow release carbs int he oatmeal

the key to getting big is NOT carbs like you said. its a combination of carbs and proetin, but the portoein is the most important factor.

i think you need to do a bit more research on the subject of bodybuilding cos a lot of your views are incorrect


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## jimbo00 (Nov 28, 2010)

perhaps the people posting advice can post pics of what they look like... so us newbies.... can decide who's posting info they have read/decided on (via random websites) as oposed to actual results ?

I dont mean to insult anyone but some of the people posting have made umm..errr... interesting other threads on these topics... so its confusing who actualy knows what they are talking about..


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

candrnow said:


> from personal experience, i think whey is over-rated as something you NEED to get into your body after and/or before working out. i got by fine for months without whey when i would just down cottage cheese (casein protein) + lemonade immediately after working out (an hour later i'd follow up with a big meal), made good gains in both strength and size. do i think i would have made even better gains had i used whey instead? no, i don't.
> 
> again, the most important thing is to eat a lot of ANYTHING before and after you work out. too many people think that protein is the key to getting big but it's actually carbs that are important.
> 
> and no, it's not true that you can't compare yourself to anyone when "advancing in bodybuilding" due to "too many variables." we're all human. things that work for one person are probably going to work for someone else. if you really believed that, what's the point of even posting in this thread and giving advice? why would strength and bodybuilding forums (where lifters are constantly sharing tips) be so popular? why are there popularly prescribed diets or lifting programs that seem to do well for everyone (i.e. Starting Strength, Mark Rippetoe)? you're 100% wrong about that one.


i think that by ''a lot of anything'' before and after workout he meant many calories, but eating what your body needs does not equal anything. I think that u would have had quicker progress if u took rapid absorption protein in the post-work out shake, like pauly said, there were studies made

and i still don;t think u should compare yourself to anyone else's advancement in bodybuilding, cause given the same set of circumstances, the same meals, the same quantities, the same exercises, the same everything, between the 2 individuals there are difference in progress.

and of course, we are all human, we all have organism that works on the same principles, but we still have differences

why am i giving advice here is i say we all are different ? cause i'm giving genereal advices that work for most ppl, that are tested by studies and experiences, i'm not giving particular advices that might work for some and for some not.

ok we are going to far with this argumentation in this thread. way off topic :b we could start another thread for debates like this


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

jimbo00 said:


> perhaps the people posting advice can post pics of what they look like... so us newbies.... can decide who's posting info they have read/decided on (via random websites) as oposed to actual results ?
> 
> I dont mean to insult anyone but some of the people posting have made umm..errr... interesting other threads on these topics... so its confusing who actualy knows what they are talking about..


all of my knowledge on bodybuilding has come from purchasing and reading bill phillips body for life , tom venuto's burn the fat feed the muscle , and shaun nalywanji's truth about building muscle.

all of those books were written by experts who know what they are talking about.

i have also put all of the knowledge from those books into action countless times and seen the results for myself

i know exactly what im talking about on this subject


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## jimbo00 (Nov 28, 2010)

Paul & others, im currently having whey + dextrose only after working out.. is there anything better I could be having instead of the dextrose, worried about all the sugar etc.. 
was also thinking of adding Maltodextrin in aswell... but ya not sure ?

Also im curious.. if you need carbs/protein post work out, why do most of the protein bars advertise they are high in protein and low in carbs ? (i dont use the bars, but have alwys wondered..)


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

jimbo00 said:


> Paul & others, im currently having whey + dextrose only after working out.. is there anything better I could be having instead of the dextrose, worried about all the sugar etc..
> was also thinking of adding Maltodextrin in aswell... but ya not sure ?
> 
> Also im curious.. if you need carbs/protein post work out, why do most of the protein bars advertise they are high in protein and low in carbs ? (i dont use the bars, but have alwys wondered..)


theres nothing better than whey and dextrose post workout. thats perfect. what i will say though is that if your goal is fat loss and not muscle gain and if you are also a beginner then i wouldnt bother with the whey dextrose post workout. i'd just have either a meal replacement shake or even a whole food meal. 
(dont worry about sugar postworkout. it gets used for a good purpose by the body. just make sure you have a solid meal 1 hour after the dextrose )

the bars arent for post workout. they are just for having as snacks inbetween meals were its benefical to have high protein/moderate carbs

i wouldnt even say the protein bars are high protein though anyway. they do have carbs in just not a lot, maybe 15-20g something like that. im not a fan of bars anyway


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

jimbo00 said:


> perhaps the people posting advice can post pics of what they look like... so us newbies.... can decide who's posting info they have read/decided on (via random websites) as oposed to actual results ?
> 
> I dont mean to insult anyone but some of the people posting have made umm..errr... interesting other threads on these topics... so its confusing who actualy knows what they are talking about..


lol ppl here actually think that others coming and giving advice are just making conversation for the sake of boredom. im no pro bodybuilder but i know what i'm talking about cause I experimented on my body all those things and still am. currently i lost ~10 kg in the last two months cause i had a period of depression in witch i ate like a pig and lose nights. i still ain't got six pack now, but i got 4 pack so it's only a matter of time to lose the remaining fat. u can see pics on my facebook, profile photos subsection, see in facebook thread, i dunno about the others.



jimbo00 said:


> Paul & others, im currently having whey + dextrose only after working out.. is there anything better I could be having instead of the dextrose, worried about all the sugar etc..


what pauly said is correct. and sugars after workout are used to remade the glycogen in the muscle that was lost during heavy lifting, not deposited as fat, so don't worry. after workout is also good time to cheat with sweets if u can't help it, but still dextrose is best

oh and pauly it's ok to take carbo after training even if you;re on losing fat diet. i for example took rice cause at the moment cause i ain't got money for suplemments (just vit+min)


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

i've skimmed thru what has been written, and i stand by what i've written. no i wasn't a beginner when i was using cottage cheese after a workout, i got my squat up to 350lbs at a bodyweight of 175lbs (yes, olympic squat depth, very very deep) during those weeks. yes, i probably will have to put up pics in a couple of weeks when i get home from school and have access to a camera. i may have a couple of before pics too.

whey + dextrose after working out? small meal before and big meal after? fast release carbs vs. slow release carbs? those kind of things just don't matter. caloric excess with enough protein + lifting hard = all you need. that's all you will ever need. getting bogged down in details is useless.

OP: if you want to get big and muscular, eat a lot and train intensely.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> lol ppl here actually think that others coming and giving advice are just making conversation for the sake of boredom. im no pro bodybuilder but i know what i'm talking about cause I experimented on my body all those things and still am. currently i lost ~10 kg in the last two months cause i had a period of depression in witch i ate like a pig and lose nights. i still ain't got six pack now, but i got 4 pack so it's only a matter of time to lose the remaining fat. u can see pics on my facebook, profile photos subsection, see in facebook thread, i dunno about the others.
> 
> what pauly said is correct. and sugars after workout are used to remade the glycogen in the muscle that was lost during heavy lifting, not deposited as fat, so don't worry. after workout is also good time to cheat with sweets if u can't help it, but still dextrose is best
> 
> oh and pauly it's ok to take carbo after training even if you;re on losing fat diet. i for example took rice cause at the moment cause i ain't got money for suplemments (just vit+min)


i know its ok to have carbs post workout if your goal is fat loss. thats why i said ''have a meal replacement or a propper meal ''(both of which have carbs in)

its even ok to have the simple sugars/dextrose too if you are trying to lose fat. what i meant was if you are trying to lose fat and you are also a beginner i would just have a propper meal or an mr instead of sugars. but if you are tring to lose fat and you are intermidiate or advanced then i'd probably use the dextrose cos your training will be very intense that you will need the sugars after it


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> i've skimmed thru what has been written, and i stand by what i've written. no i wasn't a beginner when i was using cottage cheese after a meal, i got my squat up to 350lbs at a bodyweight of 175lbs (yes, olympic squat depth, very very deep) during those weeks. yes, i probably will have to put up pics in a couple of weeks when i get home from school and have access to a camera. i may have a couple of before pics too.
> 
> whey + dextrose after working out? small meal before and big meal after? fast release carbs vs. slow release carbs? those kind of things just don't matter. caloric excess with enough protein + lifting hard = all you need. that's all you will ever need. getting bogged down in details is useless.
> 
> OP: if you want to get big and muscular, eat a lot and train intensely.


of course all of that stuff matters

why doesnt having a small meal before matter ? if you have a big meal your body is gonna have to work very hard to digest it and then you do a workout whilst your body is trying to digest a big meal = poor workout

why doesnt fast release carbs matter ? fast release carbs replenish the glycogen so that your body doesnt begin breaking down muscle. how is that not important ?


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

btw pauly, aren't you someone who's trying to lose weight? have you ever even done the bulking up thing?


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> of course all of that stuff matters
> 
> why doesnt having a small meal before matter ? if you have a big meal your body is gonna have to work very hard to digest it and then you do a workout whilst your body is trying to digest a big meal = poor workout
> 
> why doesnt fast release carbs matter ? fast release carbs replenish the glycogen so that your body doesnt begin breaking down muscle. how is that not important ?


i always have big meals before working out. never affected my workouts.

because if a beginner is following all those guidelines you and the other gentleman has given out, it will be way too ridiculous and will muddle what's important. and that's caloric excess with a lot of protein. because that's the key to getting big, CALORIES, not how fast the carbs you ingest are.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

we're arguing here like crazy, but cwq has not been here since he started the thread :teeth

anyway, the big picture are calories u say. on a bulking diet, ~40% of calories are carbs, i think it matters what kind of carbs are, slow or fast


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> we're arguing here like crazy, but cwq has not been here since he started the thread :teeth
> 
> anyway, the big picture are calories u say. on a bulking diet, ~40% of calories are carbs, i think it matters what kind of carbs are, slow or fast


people here tend to do that, post a thread and then never write in it again, lol.


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## cwq (Mar 23, 2011)

I do read the post but half the time i dnt knw whats being said and it gets confusing, i am trying to absorb as much as i can n try to figure out whats been said n how to go abt getting all the stuffs been mentioned but its difficult i dnt even know how much calorie, protein or carb i am eating from my meals especially i dnt have the luxury of cooking my own food coz of my work shedule i have to eat out. Right now i think i wanna focus on lose fat first. My nightly routine is:
jogging every other night 30mins
200 push up every other night
60 burpees every other night
120 crunches every other night
135 biceps DB(5kg) curls every other night
i am attempting to gradually increase the numbers every session.

i have no time to go gym, so using bodyweight or simple equipment like Resist bands or whatever i can find outdoors, quite like a prison workout.


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## cwq (Mar 23, 2011)

I think it will be more helpful if someone who have actual proven knowledge to tell me what to do and then i can start off and pick up knowledge along the way instead of jamming my brain with all the delicate details right from the start. Sry if i am retarded but having a hard time trying to figure out my training plan n nutrition plan.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

there is a limit to how big and strong you can get from doing bodyweight exercises. it's absolutely NECESSARY to go to a gym if you want to get big and muscular. you need to work with barbells. you're not going to gain any appreciable muscular weight doing 100 pushups every night man, it just won't happen. 

you probably should disregard everything i wrote if you plan on just working with limited equipment, lol. you really will end up getting fat if you're constantly downing those shakes i suggested without having access to barbells and weights.

if you're SERIOUS about getting big, you're going to find a way to get to the gym. you can always make time if you make it a priority. i know what i'm talking about because i've been thru it all myself. i started at 115lbs and i'm now a muscular, strong 190lbs. if you ever get access to a gym, i can help you. till then, good luck.

edit: you can probably can get really FIT doing just bodyweight and cardio stuff though. i'm just speculating, i don't really have any experience with "general fitness"; maybe someone else here can help you out. if you refuse to get into a gym, maybe make that your goal instead?


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

candrnow said:


> if you're SERIOUS about getting big, you're going to find a way to get to the gym. you can always make time if you make it a priority. i know what i'm talking about because i've been thru it all myself. i started at 115lbs and i'm now a muscular, strong 190lbs.


That's very impressive.

1. How old were you when were 115 lbs. and how old were you when you reached 190 lbs.
2. Did your % bodyfat change?


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

Kon said:


> That's very impressive.
> 
> 1. How old were you when were 115 lbs. and how old were you when you reached 190 lbs.
> 2. Did your % bodyfat change?


i was 17, i'm now 21, about to turn 22.

yes. i was emaciated at 115lbs, i'm guessing i'm now 15% bodyfat at 190? i'm unsure, but i can still see the outline of my abs and ribs when i flex. i don't think anyone can gain 75lbs without putting on some fat.


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

candrnow said:


> i was 17, i'm now 21, about to turn 22.
> yes. i was emaciated at 115lbs, i'm guessing i'm now 15% bodyfat at 190? i'm unsure, but i can still see the outline of my abs and ribs when i flex. i don't think anyone can gain 75lbs without putting on some fat.


Given your age, a significant % of the mass (muscle and fat) you gained is also the result of maturity, I think? Even without lifting weights most guys put on significant mass (muscle and fat) between those ages.


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## cwq (Mar 23, 2011)

My goal now is to get Fit first, with a well toned body instead of the incredible hulk kind of look as i really dnt have enuf time for that nw as i am working dbl shift with only one day off per week which i can hit the gym. I will save mega bulking for later when i can afford more time to go to the gym. So what do i need to do?


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

Kon said:


> Given your age, a significant % of the mass (muscle and fat) you gained is also the result of maturity, I think? Even without lifting weights most guys put on significant mass (muscle and fat) between those ages.


i don't think so, i haven't gotten taller since i was 17 and puberty stopped before that for me. and if you're talking about some maturation other than puberty, i don't know what it is, lol. a lot of people from my high school look exactly the same now as they did when they were 17 or 18, so i dunno.



cwq said:


> My goal now is to get Fit first, with a well toned body instead of the incredible hulk kind of look as i really dnt have enuf time for that nw as i am working dbl shift with only one day off per week which i can hit the gym. I will save mega bulking for later when i can afford more time to go to the gym. So what do i need to do?


not my area of expertise unfortunately, but i'm sure other people here can contribute and help you out.


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## 2Talkative (Nov 1, 2007)

cwq said:


> My goal now is to get Fit first, with a well toned body instead of the incredible hulk kind of look as i really dnt have enuf time for that nw as i am working dbl shift with only one day off per week which i can hit the gym. I will save mega bulking for later when i can afford more time to go to the gym. So what do i need to do?


It's going to be pretty tough to get anything done with one day a week. Your diet is going to be 90% of your outcome . The one day a week you do go should be a full body workout plus cardio.

Do you really want to bulk are you already a low bf% ? If your not 12-14% then there is no point in bulking on a high bf% your just doing a dis-service.


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## cwq (Mar 23, 2011)

I have got a few hours each night to train at my workplace, i juz cant use the gym. So i have only bodyweight, resistance bands & a 5kg dumbbell to work with. I know i cant achieve much with these so i am only trying for a toned body. I am 34yo, weighing 82kg, height at 169cm. I dnt have my bodyfat % but i looked slightly fat. I have some training but not systematic, just casual. Can someone create a workout plan for me? I dnt think i need any special nutrition diet for this(?) as i am mainly trying to cut and gain only some muscle?


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

Man, whitout a nutrition diet you're training equals almost 0. It matters what u eat a LOT.

To start of easy, u gotta calculate your daily calories first. How much u need to eat. If u said u are slightly fat, u gotta eat like 500 calories less than your daily requirements to lose fat.

Now to calculate your daily requirements, there are some online calculators to do that for you. I'll come up with a link later, or maybe others can help (i use a calc from my country so it's in my native language).

That's the first step. So let's presume at your height and age, u should eat like 2000 calories to maintain weight, and to lose weight like 1500. U can find tables on the internet with how many calories a product has, and for packed products, it's written on them how many calories they contain per 100g of product. Calories come from fat (9cal/g), protein (4cal/g) and carbohidrates (4cal/g), but those are details, don't concentrate on that for now, in the first week(s).

One thing u gotta remember: u can eat all u can as long as u don't exceed that daily value of calories. Tip: all vegetables, salads can really fill your belly with very little calories, and can save u if u feel hungry all the time.

Other than that, to lose fat that exercises u mentioned are fine for starters. I have a link with improvised home workout with improvised weights i will translate and give it to u at a later time. In fact, all sports are fine for losing weight as long as u are in a deficit of calories when eating. Hell u can even lose weight just by calorie deficit, and not doing sport, it takes a longer time, but it works (but not the other way around: sports and no calorie deficit).

Oh and rest is very important, but I guess u sleep like 6-8 hours a night, right ?


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

candrnow said:


> i don't think so, i haven't gotten taller since i was 17 and puberty stopped before that for me. and if you're talking about some maturation other than puberty, i don't know what it is, lol. a lot of people from my high school look exactly the same now as they did when they were 17 or 18, so i dunno.


I'm talking about muscle and skeletal tissue maturity. Muscle and skeletal mass reaches it's maximum level at ~ the age of 25. Even if you never lifted weights, your muscle and skeletal size usually peaks at around the age of 25. There are many studies on this topic. I'm not trying to say that lifting weights didn't play a role but a gain of 75 lbs. (mostly muscle) due to weight training is highly unlikely. Even with steroids that would be very hard to do.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

cwq said:


> I think it will be more helpful if someone who have actual proven knowledge to tell me what to do and then i can start off and pick up knowledge along the way instead of jamming my brain with all the delicate details right from the start. Sry if i am retarded but having a hard time trying to figure out my training plan n nutrition plan.


ive already told you waht to do by PM mate

the adivce ive given you is spot on mate, trust me


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> btw pauly, aren't you someone who's trying to lose weight? have you ever even done the bulking up thing?


yes and yes


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> i always have big meals before working out. never affected my workouts.
> 
> because if a beginner is following all those guidelines you and the other gentleman has given out, it will be way too ridiculous and will muddle what's important. and that's caloric excess with a lot of protein. because that's the key to getting big, CALORIES, not how fast the carbs you ingest are.


how is way too ridiculous and how will it muddle whats important.

just making sure you get some whey and fast acting carbs post workout and making sure you get some slow release protein and slow release carbs pre workout is hardly gonna muddle things up now is it.

obviously on top of that you would make sure you consume more calories than you burn and you'd get enough protein in but thats not the be all and end all. one of the most important factors in gaining muscle is not just the calories you consume, but also PERFORMANCE and RECOCOVERY.

you have to tear the muscles in the gym with a good performance. to produce a good performance your gonna need the energy to do so. that energy comes from slow release carbs. fast release carbs will give you a quick release of energy but then you'll crash before your workout even starts and that will result in a POOR PERFORMANCE. also if amino acids are not present in the system during weight training then your body can go into a catabolic state were you lose muscle tissue. thats why SLOW release protein is so important pre workout cos it ensures a slow drip of aminio acids into the system during the workout. were as whey is so fast absorbing that its not ideal pre workout unless of course you drink at the very start of the workout

now for RECOVERY. you tear the muscles in the gym. for them to grow they need to recover. fast carbs and fast protein are miles more effective at helping the muscles recover post workout

calorie excess and lots of protein is not the be all and end all. it doesnt work like that. for protein to be used for building muscle then enough carbs and the right type of carbs must be present for the body to use as energy otherwise the protein will get used for energy instead of for building muscle. you also need a certain amount of the right fats 
and lets not forget that an excess of calories with the wrong food sources will just lead to fat gains ? and who wants that ? not me


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> i was 17, i'm now 21, about to turn 22.
> 
> yes. i was emaciated at 115lbs, i'm guessing i'm now 15% bodyfat at 190? i'm unsure, but i can still see the outline of my abs and ribs when i flex. i don't think anyone can gain 75lbs without putting on some fat.


youve gained 75lb in 5 years and are only 15% body fat ? i find that impossible to beleive and thats the reason i cant take anything you say serious

how much muscle are you claiming to have gained in 5 years then ?


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> youve gained 75lb in 5 years and are only 15% body fat ? i find that impossible to beleive and thats the reason i cant take anything you say serious
> 
> how much muscle are you claiming to have gained in 5 years then ?


there are many reason i believe you don't know what you're talking about.

i don't believe you've ever bulked up successfully before. if you did and you had success, you probably would emphasize all those details much less. you would know the 2 most important things are eating a lot with plenty of protein and lifting intensely. instead, you talk about things like dextrose? listen, i've actually tried all of that. none of that **** matters.

i also don't believe you've bulked up before because one of your threads is "5 months to lose 40lbs." that's a great goal, i applaud you for trying to become more fit. but if you're trying to lose 40lbs, that tells me you've either never bulked up before or your bulk failed miserably and it all turned to fat.

another reason: you shet all over my first post when i suggested the OP use shakes, saying they were disgusting and he would just get fat. from that, i already began to doubt you knew what you were talking about. a lot of people use that first shake i described (it's a recipe i got from bodybuilding.com actually) to gain weight, and you won't get fat if you're lifting hard. to dismiss my post like that so readily when a lot of people are currently using that very shake to gain weight indicated to me that you don't know much.

i said i'm GUESSING i'm 15%. i don't really care about bodyfat and am honestly not quite sure what 15% looks like. i can still see my abs and ribs when i flex though, so i thought it would be a fair guess. maybe someone post a pic of someone who really is 15% bodyfat and i can compare?

don't try to discredit me, you obviously don't know what you're talking about. it's one of my greatest achievements to have gained all of this bodyweight. i gained a lot of character thru this process, and i'm very proud of myself for having done so. that's why i believe in what i'm saying and suggest everyone disregard what you are saying.

Aleksandr Kareline, champion wrestler: "I train every day of my life as they have never trained a day in theirs."

applicable here.



Kon said:


> I'm talking about muscle and skeletal tissue maturity. Muscle and skeletal mass reaches it's maximum level at ~ the age of 25. Even if you never lifted weights, your muscle and skeletal size usually peaks at around the age of 25. There are many studies on this topic. I'm not trying to say that lifting weights didn't play a role but a gain of 75 lbs. (mostly muscle) due to weight training is highly unlikely. Even with steroids that would be very hard to do.


you're probably right about my skeletal density increasing. i started chugging a lot of milk when i was bulking up, whereas before that i probably derived all of my calcium from ice cream, haha. that's something that comes with lifting though, it increases the density of your bones. so i'm not so sure you can separate the 2 from each other.

i will say this. i have huge legs. that probably contributes a lot to my weight. seriously, i probably have the biggest legs of anyone i've ever seen at 5'8".


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

one more thing reason i don't believe paulyD knows what he's talking about:

paulyD you seem to express all of this fear about getting fat on a bulk. i suppose that may be justified for you, because you're trying to lose 40lbs (bulk gone wrong?). but actually, in order to gain muscular bodyweight, the first thing you have to overcome is your fear of getting fat. i know i had to. you have to have complete faith in the intensity of your training and the general healthiness of what you're eating. that is what bulking up is, not counting calories or using dextrose and whey post-workout.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

just typed "15% bodyfat" into google.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/86686-body-fat-pics.html

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=114048031

comparing myself to the people in those threads, yes, i'm just about 15% bodyfat at 190lbs. you'd be surprised where hard work can get you, pauly.


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## ilsr (Aug 29, 2010)

Interesting thread. As we're all SA people the thread is still informative and it seems a lot of us are weight training as a hobby. It's part self- therapy for me too. 

I don't really know methods or follow routines. I'm probably doing a lot wrong if I was going for muscle mass. I usually go to get out of the house and have that pain of lifting "cleanse" my mind of the depression at night. My goals are for strength. I try to do the same number of reps going up 5 lbs within a month all the machines I do. (probably about 22 different machines) I'm at 5'8", 205 lbs, probably 45 lbs overweight in fat. 
I take one supplement pill after every workout. And sometimes do supplement drinks, but that's about it. I'm not very detailed or precise in my training planning. I just try to get to the gym 4-5 times a week as a consistency goal. 

And sometimes it's just an SA battle to get there and stay there in the first place. Any number of social hangups can screw my mind into obsessing. Bad eye contact. rudeness from the staff. walking around and having to move out of people's way, or not move out of people's way as the case may be. Wondering who's watching me..etc.. the usual SA ultra paranoia. Thanks to those posting knowledgeable advice.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

i agree that weightlifting can be therapeutic, but it can breed insecurities too. when i first started, i would be constantly comparing myself to other guys at the gym: is he stronger than me? can he do more reps? how much does he weigh? 

i think a lot of people that go to the gym go for the wrong reasons.

for me, eventually lifting weights became a way to honestly express myself. on some fundamental level, i think weightlifting is about honesty: doing reps with perfect form with full ROMs, making a training schedule and sticking to it consistently, acknowledging you're not strong enough yet to handle a certain weight, realizing when you're giving 100% effort and realizing when you're not busting your ***, etc.

i love it, and i'm probably going to be lifting until the day i die.


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

paulyD said:


> youve gained 75lb in 5 years and are only 15% body fat ? i find that impossible to beleive and thats the reason i cant take anything you say serious
> 
> how much muscle are you claiming to have gained in 5 years then ?


I gained 60lb in 3-4yrs, with no supplements, poor diet, no steroids, following a program adapted from BRAWN.

People on this site seem to like to talk and moan, but take very little in, that is the main thing I've seen so far this week.

Before using AAS, I benched 180kg, Deadlifted 260kg, and deep squatted 140kg x 20.

My bodyweight went from 150lb to 210lb, at 6'1, and leaner than when I started, (full abs).

I have been training 16yrs now, Benched 227.5kg, (over 500lbs), and Deadlifted 305kg, (had more in me and will go for 320kg very soon), at a bodyweight of 105kg.

All totally raw lifts, no belt, no straps.

I don't know of many people who have made better gains that me, even with far better genetics.

I train 45min twice a week, hitting each body part every 14 days.

People talk so much crap on the subject it blows my mind, even now, it is simple, hard work, and not very interesting or exciting.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

Nytol said:


> I gained 60lb in 3-4yrs, with no supplements, poor diet, no steroids, following a program adapted from BRAWN.
> 
> People on this site seem to like to talk and moan, but take very little in, that is the main thing I've seen so far this week.
> 
> ...


jesus, you're a beast. anyways, thanks for backing me up.


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

Nytol said:


> I gained 60lb in 3-4yrs, with no supplements, poor diet, no steroids, following a program adapted from BRAWN...I train 45min twice a week, hitting each body part every 14 days.People talk so much crap on the subject it blows my mind, even now, it is simple, hard work, and not very interesting or exciting.


I really liked all of Stuart McRobert's books. Unfortunately my build was not well suited for deadlifts or squatting. I kept getting small injuries once my weight on the bar increased. But I really liked the abbreviated-type hardgainer training programs, as they allowed to me to put an extra 5-10 lbs of muscle in my 30s after hitting a plateau in my late 20s. I'm still pretty slim and could never look big but at least I still look kind of athletic.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

candrnow said:


> on some fundamental level, i think weightlifting is about honesty: doing reps with perfect form with full ROMs, making a training schedule and sticking to it consistently, acknowledging you're not strong enough yet to handle a certain weight, realizing when you're giving 100% effort and realizing when you're not busting your ***, etc.


This :clap

If u try to cheat with heavier weights that make u sacrifice good form, not only are u lying to yourself in the first place, u are also risking injuries, and you are not making others believe you are stronger than u really are in reality (well u can fool novices), it's not about bragging and showing off, u do it for yourself, not for others, you're training, not advertising.

I myself don't try to force my bench press for chest at the moment and I can't lift more than 30 kg for 8 correct reps. But it's the second month of gym after a very long pause and I will get to more weight soon. Still, I do feel inferior sometimes cause the average Joe in the gym does bench press with double then that, but I don't let it get to me and stick to my business.



Nytol said:


> I gained 60lb in 3-4yrs, with no supplements, poor diet, no steroids, following a program adapted from BRAWN.
> 
> People on this site seem to like to talk and moan, but take very little in, that is the main thing I've seen so far this week.
> 
> ...


Congrats  ppl should start realizing that consistent progress in bodybuilding comes in years, not in months.


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

Kon said:


> I really liked all of Stuart McRobert's books. Unfortunately my build was not well suited for deadlifts or squatting. I kept getting small injuries once my weight on the bar increased. But I really liked the abbreviated-type hardgainer training programs, as they allowed to me to put an extra 5-10 lbs of muscle in my 30s after hitting a plateau in my late 20s. I'm still pretty slim and could never look big but at least I still look kind of athletic.


It is unusual for someone not to be able to work at least one of those lifts hard.

With DL you have conventional, sumo, or Romanian to play with.

I believe DL has a massive effect on the overall system and it has nothing to do with hormonal release, just the act of stressing the whole body at once.

Until last year I too believed I was not suited to BB Squats, I lent forward too much to hit depth, and all I got from them was sore knees.

Then I saw this video 




It made total sense to me, and I realised I'd been breaking at the knees and not at the hips.

I dropped my weight back down to just 60kg, (no ego here), and did many sets and reps over a number of months, to learn good form till it became 2nd nature, and unlearn the bad form.

My knees have never felt better in my life, and even with next to no weight, my legs get hit in a way they never have, glutes, hams and quads, all working together as they should.

People label training like this 'hardgainer', but I had a pro BB'er train with me for some time, and he could not deal with the intensity of hitting one or two sets hard, despite coming from training 5 days a week previously.

He made his best gains training this way, but mentally could not deal with it.


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

candrnow said:


> i agree that weightlifting can be therapeutic, but it can breed insecurities too. when i first started, i would be constantly comparing myself to other guys at the gym: is he stronger than me? can he do more reps? how much does he weigh?
> 
> i think a lot of people that go to the gym go for the wrong reasons.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I know a single person who trains to a high level who is not insecure, (myself inc).

Spot on post.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> there are many reason i believe you don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> i don't believe you've ever bulked up successfully before. if you did and you had success, you probably would emphasize all those details much less. you would know the 2 most important things are eating a lot with plenty of protein and lifting intensely. instead, you talk about things like dextrose? listen, i've actually tried all of that. none of that **** matters.
> 
> ...


right this is all im gonna say to you in regards to me ''paulyD'' not knowing what he is talking about. here is the carbs and calories in your pre/post workout shake that you reconmended to a beginner who was looking for advice :

*2 cups of oatmeal = 290 calories, 50 grams carbs 
*2 bananas = 210 calories , 50 grams carbs

thats 100 grams of carbs and 500 calories. on top of that youve got 2 scoups of whey which is about another 210 calories and some milk and peanut butter

so youve got 710 calories not including the milk and peanut butter. and youve got 100 grams of carbs

who the hell needs over 710 calories in just one meal ? especially a pre workout meal. how are you supposed to workout properly when youve got 710 calories swishing round in your stomach and how is your body supposed to digest 710 calories aswell as workout ?

why o why does anybody need peanut butter post workout ? peanut butter contains a lot of fat. nobody should consume fat post workout

and lets be honest here - blending juice with cottage cheese does sound a bit weird and strange does is not ?

im 28. i started weightlifting at 21. thats 7 years. in that time ive bulked successfully. ive also shed fat successfully. and ive also let myself go successfully. at the moment im 40lb over weight cos ive let myself go by eating junk and not working out.

''you would know the 2 most important things are eating a lot with plenty of protein and lifting intensely. instead, you talk about things like dextrose? listen, i've actually tried all of that. none of that **** matters.''

if only it were that simply. like ive said previously performance and recovery are 2 major factors. and a good performance requires propper pre workout nutrition. and good recovery also requires propper post workout nutrition. eating over 700 calories in just one meal like you suggested will just result in FAT gain. bulking up is not about gaining WEIGHT its about gaining MUSCLE not fat

to disregard dextrose post workout as **** just shows your ignorance. ask anyone on the planet who knows anything about bodybuilding and they will tell you the importance of dextrose post workout. infact they'll probably stress thats its one of the most important factors in gaining muscle

i know what im talking about thanks, i think you'll find that you are the one who doesnt


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> *2 cups of oatmeal = 290 calories, 50 grams carbs
> *2 bananas = 210 calories , 50 grams carbs
> 
> thats 100 grams of carbs and 500 calories. on top of that youve got 2 scoups of whey which is about another 210 calories and some milk and peanut butter
> ...


oh, i never said you drink it all at once. i used to down half of it at a time when i was 115lbs.

now i actually DO drink all of it pre-workout. when i say "pre-workout", i don't mean consuming it immediately prior to hitting the gym. you're right, you probably would get an upset stomach like that. i use the term "pre-workout" to mean the meal before you workout. i eat 2 hours before i hit the gym. you probably think you NEED to eat thirty minutes before hitting the gym. not true if you have a big meal before.



paulyD said:


> why o why does anybody need peanut butter post workout ? peanut butter contains a lot of fat. nobody should consume fat post workout


because PB makes it taste delicious. that's a great reason. and because it doesn't matter if you do or you don't take in fat pre- or post-workout. it just doesn't matter in the big picture.



paulyD said:


> to disregard dextrose post workout as **** just shows your ignorance. ask anyone on the planet who knows anything about bodybuilding and they will tell you the importance of dextrose post workout. infact they'll probably stress thats its one of the most important factors in gaining muscle


no, they will say what i've been saying all along, it's calories + enough protein that matter.



paulyD said:


> i know what im talking about thanks, i think you'll find that you are the one who doesnt


well, i find myself 75lbs heavier (much of it muscle) than i was 4-5 years ago. i would say i DO know what i'm talking about.



paulyD said:


> im 28. i started weightlifting at 21. thats 7 years. in that time ive bulked successfully. ive also shed fat successfully. and ive also let myself go successfully. at the moment im 40lb over weight cos ive let myself go by eating junk and not working out.


do you mind sharing a little more details about your bulk? some stats would be nice. what do you mean when you say you have bulked successfully? i think you're just spewing all of these facts that you've read online/from books without ever having put yourself through the process of bulking.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

nytol, do you mind weighing in on this?

how important are all of these details paulyD is writing about in gaining muscular bodyweight? can you share your own experiences with nutrition? would you recommend to a beginner to follow all of paulyD's guidelines? or is simply calories (w/ enough protein of course) + lifting hard enough for a successful bulk?

i'd especially love for you to evaluate this statement:



paulyD said:


> to disregard dextrose post workout as **** just shows your ignorance. ask anyone on the planet who knows anything about bodybuilding and they will tell you the importance of dextrose post workout. infact they'll probably stress thats *its one of the most important factors in gaining muscle *


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

lol pauly, have you ever heard of the anabolic diet? it's going to absolutely blow your mind.



> Basically:
> 
> Weekdays = high fat 60% of calories coming from fat, less than 30 GRAMS of carbs, and the rest from protein
> 
> ...


http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=460968 - Eat Like a Man, Part I
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459762 - Eat Like a Man, Part II

lots of people have experienced great gains on this diet.

so all that baloney you said about HAVING to have a certain amount of carbs post-workout, a certain amount of carbs pre-workout, as well as your assertion that FAT IS SO, SO, SO TERRIBLE POST-WORKOUT?

yeah, all that goes out the window unfortunately in the face of real-life experience. you can gain strength and size on any number of diets, nothing is written in stone. the most important thing is calories.


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

candrnow said:


> nytol, do you mind weighing in on this?
> 
> how important are all of these details paulyD is writing about in gaining muscular bodyweight? can you share your own experiences with nutrition? would you recommend to a beginner to follow all of paulyD's guidelines? or is simply calories (w/ enough protein of course) + lifting hard enough for a successful bulk?
> 
> i'd especially love for you to evaluate this statement:


Carbs post WO are not important, that is not an opinion, it is a fact, with enough science to keep you reading for weeks.

Bulking and cutting is an outdated concept, and one that is illogical at best.

Yeah you can gain 20lb, with 15lb of it being fat, which then you have to lose, risking the 5 lb of lean tissue when doing so.

Gaining muscle and getting leaner at the same time is not rocket science, but requires patience, this is one of the main reasons that tracking strength gains is vital, as the scale or mirror do not change rapidly enough to give accrue feedback, and you could waste months before accepting that what you are doing, is not working, (of course many continue to do the same things year in, year out, with no progress???).

Supplements are just that, and IMO not essential if your appetite is good enough to get enough whole foods in.

I eat very few carbs most of the time, just don't like them, and I believe that most people would do better on this kind of diet, adding in energy cals from fats, not carbs.

The best 'supplement' to whole food IME is about 50g whey, with 3 large, whole free range eggs, blended with water.

Keep in mind that many of the popular BB'ing foods, such as milk and oats, cause intolerance and gastrointestinal distress in the majority of people, and have also been shown to decrease absorption of nutrients.

Pre WO nutrition has been shown to be more effective than post, however I have done 90% of my training over the years in a fasted state, could never stomach eating before training.

Slow release protein is not a good thing pre WO, if you want aminos present in the blood, the digestion times for whey seem to have been taken as instantaneous, when it is actually around 3hrs, far from fast in the grand scheme of things.

BCAA are a good supp, and something I've recently added, but a decent amount need to be consumed, not a couple of caps.

I used 6 scoops of Xtend in 1.5l of water which I sip during training, then have a WPC shake straight after.

Another 5g of Leucine added to the BCAA may make it even more effective.

In my 1st 5-6yrs, (maybe more) of training, I took no other supplements than a post WO protein shake, at the time whey was £30 per kg, creatine was £20 per 100g, and I did not have the money.

I also paid next to no attention to diet, was just very dedicated to what I did in the gym, adding a rep, or a kg to the bar each week, repeating this patten on the big movements, over and over.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

Just one thing I would like to add: rapid absorption carbs after workout is not for bulking up especially, it's about remaking the glycogen in the muscle that was lost during training. And yeah, it's necessary.

And about fat in the post-workout meal, it doesn't matter, as long as post-workout has rapid absorption carbs and protein.

A quote from bodybuilding.com here: ''_While the remodeling process is much more complex than I can describe here, it's important for me to emphasize that this remodeling only takes place if the muscle is provided the right raw materials. If I plan on remodeling my home I can hire a guy to tear down a couple of walls, a guy to clean up the mess, and a guy to come in and rebuild better walls than the ones that came down.

But if I don't give that guy any bricks, how's he going to get anything done? If I don't give him the bricks, all I'll have in the end is a much smaller, unfinished house.

The same holds true with exercise remodeling. In particular, during the exercise bout and immediately following it, exercise breaks down our muscle carbohydrate stores and our muscle protein structures. Then, the immune system comes in to clean up the mess.

And finally, signals are generated to tell the body to rebuild. However, as I hope you can now see, *without the proper protein and carbohydrate raw materials, this building can't take place*. You'll be left with muscles that never reach their potential._


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> Just one thing I would like to add: rapid absorption carbs after workout is not for bulking up especially, it's about remaking the glycogen in the muscle that was lost during training. And yeah, it's necessary.
> 
> And about fat in the post-workout meal, it doesn't matter, as long as post-workout has rapid absorption carbs and protein.
> 
> ...


Carbs do not build anything, they are merely fuel.

That analogy (which has been told a million times, is, or should be, an idiots guide to protein).

Muscle Glycogen is replenished when ever you eat carbs, and is not necessary post WO, in fact there are reasons why they are not even desirable at this time.


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## jimbo00 (Nov 28, 2010)

grrrr this no carbs pwo thing just makes it even more confusing 
I had a look on google and there are alot of people saying the same thing (while same amount saying they have carbs etc). I think I get the main message your saying though... lift and eat lots ?

based on your pic Nytol it sounds like you know what you are on about 
Thanks for posting up that vid on squats btw.. Ive just got into all this recently (am pleased with strength/mirror  progress so far) but i've noticed with squats as the kg went up the form went real bad.. when I was doing upto around 60-70kg i could feel it nicely, but then when i got to 80-90kg I wasnt feeling much and it didnt seem like i was using the right muscles to get the bar up..


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

Nytol said:


> Muscle Glycogen is replenished when ever you eat carbs, and is not necessary post WO, in fact there are reasons why they are not even desirable at this time.


What are the reasons ? You're the first one (that seems to be a trusted source) i hear that carbs ''are not even desirable'' post workout.

Glycogen is lost when u really stress your muscles, namely during heavy lifting, not other times of day, so that's why i still insist carbs post workout are a must. I serriously don't think the rebuilding process of the muscles in that window of opportunity after workout waits _hours_ for you to get carbs into the system, it just deals with what is present at the moment. If u miss that window, fast carbs are just deposited as fat if not used for energy.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> oh, i never said you drink it all at once. i used to down half of it at a time when i was 115lbs.
> 
> now i actually DO drink all of it pre-workout. when i say "pre-workout", i don't mean consuming it immediately prior to hitting the gym. you're right, you probably would get an upset stomach like that. i use the term "pre-workout" to mean the meal before you workout. i eat 2 hours before i hit the gym. you probably think you NEED to eat thirty minutes before hitting the gym. not true if you have a big meal before.
> 
> ...


 o surprise suprise now that youve been proved wrong you come up with the excuse that you only drink half of the drink at once. why didnt you say that in the 1st place then ? BS

pre workout for me means the same as you. i have my pre workout meal 2 hours before the gym. having over 700 calories 2 hours before the gym is stupid. it will hinder your performance

fat should be avoided post workout. do the research. i cant even be bohtered arguing with you about this one its so obvious

haha 75lb gained and only 15% body fat . are you taking the mick? to only be 15% body fat you must have been super lean to begin with an then gained about 25lb of fat. so are you seriosuly saying youve gained 50lb of solid muscle ? 3 1/2 full stones of muscle ? you must be an absolute beast then . you must look like a porfessional bodybuilder. prove it and show us some pictures (and dont use fake ones of some guy out of a magazine. again BS

what do i mean when i say ive bulked successfully? what do you think i mean ? ive gained lean muscle with minimal fat gains.
it was a few years ago that i tried bulking after i'd lost a lot of fat. i gained a good 12lb of lean muscle in 12 weeks with onlky 4lb of fat gained with it


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

Nytol said:


> Muscle Glycogen is replenished when ever you eat carbs, and is not necessary post WO, in fact there are reasons why they are not even desirable at this time.


I agree. In general, I think all this optimal timing of pre or post-workout nutrition/protein/carbs, etc is way overblown. As long as you get sufficient nutrients with a slight excess (not too much so you don't end up looking like a fat pig), you will be fine. I've never noticed any major difference. The studies are kind of pointness because you can find any study to support your claim. For instance, here's one supporting no impact of timing pre or post-workout protein:

Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Feb;89(2):608-16. Protein supplementation before and after exercise does not further augment skeletal muscle hypertrophy after resistance training in elderly men.

*Conclusion:* Timed protein supplementation immediately before and after exercise does not further augment the increase in skeletal muscle mass and strength after prolonged resistance-type exercise training in healthy elderly men who habitually consume adequate amounts of dietary protein.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/89/2/608.full.pdf


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Nytol said:


> Carbs do not build anything, they are merely fuel.
> 
> That analogy (which has been told a million times, is, or should be, an idiots guide to protein).
> 
> Muscle Glycogen is replenished when ever you eat carbs, and is not necessary post WO, in fact there are reasons why they are not even desirable at this time.


you're the first person ive ever heard saying that carbs are not necessary post workout . and to say the following- is a bit stupid if you ask me seens as countless research has been done to prove that the exact opposite of what you say is indeed a FACT:

''Carbs post WO are not important, that is not an opinion, it is a fact, with enough science to keep you reading for weeks''

carbs not being important post WO is an OPINION mate not a fact


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> What are the reasons ? You're the first one (that seems to be a trusted source) i hear that carbs ''are not even desirable'' post workout.
> 
> Glycogen is lost when u really stress your muscles, namely during heavy lifting, not other times of day, so that's why i still insist carbs post workout are a must. I serriously don't think the rebuilding process of the muscles in that window of opportunity after workout waits _hours_ for you to get carbs into the system, it just deals with what is present at the moment. If u miss that window, fast carbs are just deposited as fat if not used for energy.


spot on mate


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Kon said:


> I agree. In general, I think all this optimal timing of pre or post-workout nutrition/protein/carbs, etc is way overblown. As long as you get sufficient nutrients with a slight excess (not too much so you don't end up looking like a fat pig), you will be fine. I've never noticed any major difference. The studies are kind of pointness because you can find any study to support your claim. For instance, here's one supporting no impact of timing pre or post-workout protein:
> 
> Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Feb;89(2):608-16. Protein supplementation before and after exercise does not further augment skeletal muscle hypertrophy after resistance training in elderly men.
> 
> ...


if you speak to any profesional body builder i doubt even 1% of them would say they dont beleive in carbs post workout or they dont beleive in the window of opportunity straight after weightlifting


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> o surprise suprise now that youve been proved wrong you come up with the excuse that you only drink half of the drink at once. why didnt you say that in the 1st place then ? BS


it's the truth, i'm not reading what you're writing too carefully because it's a joke.



paulyD said:


> fat should be avoided post workout. do the research. i cant even be bohtered arguing with you about this one its so obvious


*anabolic diet*. i posted links on the bottom of the last page. educate yourself.



paulyD said:


> haha 75lb gained and only 15% body fat . are you taking the mick? to only be 15% body fat you must have been super lean to begin with an then gained about 25lb of fat. so are you seriosuly saying youve gained 50lb of solid muscle ? 3 1/2 full stones of muscle ? you must be an absolute beast then . you must look like a porfessional bodybuilder. prove it and show us some pictures (and dont use fake ones of some guy out of a magazine. again BS


when does 190lbs @ 15% body fat begin to resemble anything like the body of a professional bodybuilder? bodybuilders are much more massive with way lower % bodyfat. *another sign you don't know what you're talking about* i'll post pics eventually when i get home and have access to a camera. yes, i was super lean to begin with.

*nytol had even better results. you're going to call him a liar too?*



paulyD said:


> what do i mean when i say ive bulked successfully? what do you think i mean ? ive gained lean muscle with minimal fat gains.
> it was a few years ago that i tried bulking after i'd lost a lot of fat. i gained a good 12lb of lean muscle in 12 weeks with onlky 4lb of fat gained with it


*you mean to tell me you think a successful bulk is 16 pounds in 12 weeks????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. that's HILARIOUS. come back and give your input when you're actually put yourself thru the process of gaining real weight. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.*

speaking srsly for a sec: i think you're very new to the game and have been brainwashed by things you've read online. get some more experience before giving out such bad advice.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> if you speak to any profesional body builder i doubt even 1% of them would say they dont beleive in carbs post workout or they dont beleive in the window of opportunity straight after weightlifting


anabolic diet! anabolic diet! anabolic diet! 

pauly post pics of yourself, we want to see how successful your bulk went.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

j


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Nytol said:


> I gained 60lb in 3-4yrs, with no supplements, poor diet, no steroids, following a program adapted from BRAWN.
> 
> People on this site seem to like to talk and moan, but take very little in, that is the main thing I've seen so far this week.
> 
> ...


if youve gained 60lb of muscle in 3-4 years and you are actually leaner than when you started, and you achieved all of this with a poor diet then you are either :

*superhuman
*deluded beyond beleif. living in some fantasy land, seeing a severly distorted view in the mirror 
*are one of the lucky few who are gentically gifted beyond beleif i.e ''_the exception to the rule_''


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> it's the truth, i'm not reading what you're writing too carefully because it's a joke.
> 
> *anabolic diet*. i posted links on the bottom of the last page. educate yourself.
> 
> ...


yes bodybuilders are lean in regards to body fat but what im saying is if youve gained 50lb of lean muscle, and notice i didnt say 50lb of body weight i said 50lb of pure muscle , then you must have a serious physique. i didnt relaise you were only 190lb until you just pointed it out so yer you wont be as big as a body builder but if you have gained 50lb of lean muscle then you must have one hell of a physique so why dont you prove it

i'd say nytol is either the exception to the rule or yes he is indeed a liar or worse still deluded

well seens as 12lb of muscle in 12 weeks is the absolute maximum amount of muscle a human being can gain in 12 weeks (unless you are the exception to the rule ) then yes i'd say that was a succesful bulk. o sorry wait a minute i just realised that you must be one of those nieve individually who thinks its actually possible to gain more than 1lb of muscle per week. haha thought so
ITS PHYSIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO GAIN MORE THAN 1 POUND OF LEAN MUSCLE PER WEEK. the only people who will tell you any different are the people who are trying to sell you something and the people who beleive them i.e people like you

its funny that your idea of a successful bulk seems to include how many pounds of WEIGHT you gain and not just MUSCLE. do you think youve bulked sucesfully if youve gained 30lb even if 20lb of it is fat

''_speaking srsly for a sec: i think you're very new to the game and have been brainwashed by things you've read online. get some more experience before giving out such bad advice_'' - POT KETTLE BLACK MATE THATS ALL IM GONNA SAY 

I THINK YOUVE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY PEOPLE LIKE NYTOL WHO THINKS YOU CAN GAIN 60LB OF LEAN MUSCLE WITH A POOR DIET


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> anabolic diet! anabolic diet! anabolic diet!
> 
> pauly post pics of yourself, we want to see how successful your bulk went.


well my bulk was years ago and at the moment im 40lb overweight due to inactivity and bad diet so what do you want from me

still waiting for your pics btw


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

I'd be interested in your guys pics too. I'd be especially interested in before and after pics. Just crop out faces, if you're worried.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> ITS PHYSIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO GAIN MORE THAN 1 POUND OF LEAN MUSCLE PER WEEK.


wrong.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15386



> The fact is that Zach has gained 78 lbs. in 6 months, 46 lbs. of which is LBM.


you're going to say he got fat, but he gained 78lbs in 6 months, so cut him some slack. you can gain more than 1b of muscle/week. this proves it.

if you want the background story on this, google lyle mcdonald vs. mark rippetoe. basically, lyle mcdonald is a self-proclaimed "nutrition expert" who claimed it's not possible to gain more than 1-2lbs of muscle/week. he called rippetoe a liar, and rippetoe proved him wrong.



paulyD said:


> its funny that your idea of a successful bulk seems to include how many pounds of WEIGHT you gain and not just MUSCLE. do you think youve bulked sucesfully if youve gained 30lb even if 20lb of it is fat


you mis-understand. i don't think that at all, of course a successful bulk refers to the amount of muscle you put on. but you could have gained much more muscle in a shorter amount of time had you let go of your idiotic ideologies gleaned from internet articles about what the human body can and cannot do.



paulyD said:


> still waiting for your pics btw


no camera on me, i won't have one until i get home from college.

*no response to the anabolic diet? i thought so, i keep trying to get you to respond to that, and you won't. you also won't respond about the mark rippetoe link posted above that proves the 1lb/1week thing is bull****. these are real people with real-life experiences. they've actually put themselves thru the process of gaining appreciable muscular bodyweight. you're just a keyboard warrior. everything you've written has been gleaned from internet articles. you have had no experience in the actual arena.*


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> wrong.
> 
> http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15386
> 
> ...


are you gonna give me a chance to response to the mark riptoe thing. youve literally just posted it. give me a chance to read it and respond

i havent even looked at the anobolic diet thing nor will i. i have no desire to do so


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

i'll make it simple for the guys that have been viewing this thread, wondering who is right and who is wrong.

candrnow: +75lbs in 4-5 years, 115lbs to 190lbs @ ~15% bodyfat. advocates calories w/ enough protein + lifting hard as the keys to success in gaining muscular bodyweight, knows nothing else really matters (timing of carbs, absence of fat post- and pre-workout, etc.), knows that gaining more than 1lb muscle/week is entirely possible.

nytol: +60lbs in 3-4 years (150lbs to 210lbs) on a poor diet, now an absolute monster. also disregards the popular nutrition mythologies that pauly advocates.

paulyD: +16lbs in 12 weeks is the extent of the experience he has had with bulking, has "let himself go" in recent times, now 40lbs overweight. emphasizes importances of dextrose post-workout (he claims it is the most important factor in gaining muscle), claims eating fat post-workout is terrible, claims you can't gain more than 1lb/week of muscle (knowledge gleaned from his readings that he hasn't verified by putting it to the test HIMSELF), claims he "knows exactly what he's talking about" because he's read tom ventura's book, refuses to speak on the success people have had with the anabolic diet (which prescribes things exactly the opposite of what pauly has been preaching in this thread), etc. lots more where that came from.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> i havent even looked at the anobolic diet thing nor will i. i have no desire to do so


case in point. you won't look at it because you're afraid of what you'll find. you're afraid of being wrong.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> case in point. you won't look at it because you're afraid of what you'll find. you're afraid of being wrong.


haha if you say so


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> haha if you say so


is that really the best you could come up with? reading that article may change your entire philosophy and help you make better gains in years to come, it may allow you to become un-brainwashed.

why not read it? why not open your mind to the possibility that things you read may not be written in stone, especially in the face of all of this REAL-LIFE experience that testifies to the contrary?

don't be afraid.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

candrnow said:


> *i'll make it simple for the guys that have been viewing this thread, wondering who is right and who is wrong.
> 
> candrnow: +75lbs in 4-5 years, 115lbs to 190lbs @ ~15% bodyfat. advocates calories w/ enough protein + lifting hard as the keys to success in gaining muscular bodyweight, knows nothing else really matters (timing of carbs, absence of fat post- and pre-workout, etc.), knows that gaining more than 1lb muscle/week is entirely possible.
> 
> ...


quoted for the next page, this is important.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> wrong.
> 
> http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15386
> 
> ...


here is the difference between me and you mate.

you beleive things posted on internet forums like:

* ''i gained 60lb of muscle, im leaner than i was at the start and i achieved all this with a poor diet''.

* ''ive gained 46lb of lean muscle in 6 months''

*''carbs are not important post W/O and thats a FACT''

were as i gather my knowledge from trusted professionals and authors who have been there and done it. and then i test that knowledge in real life and see the results for myself

it has been scientifically proven that it is physiologically impossible to gain more than 1lb of muscle per week. SCIENTIFACALLY proven not proven by someones post on an internet forum.
i reguarly use cnp professional sports nutrition products. cnp products were created by former bodybuilder karry keyes. kerry keyes has been there and done it. he has created the best sports nutrition products in great britain. he has won many bodybuilding competitions and he has even trained ricky hatton for many years including his fights against floyd mayweather and jose luis castillo. its fair to say that kerry knows what he is talking about. i even asked kerry myself if i could gain more than 1lb of pure muscle per week and he told me ''ITS IMPOSSIBLE ''
I'LL EVEN POST A LINK TO HIS WEBSITE WERE I ASK HIM THE QUESTION IF YOU LIKE

its SCIENTIFICALLY proven mate. what more can i say. the most amount of muscle you could possible gain in 6 months is 24lb and thats if you are extremely lucky.
heres an experiment for you :

*go and spend 6 months training and eating correctly and get you lean mass and body fat tested by professionals. and see if you even come close to gaining 24lb of muscle . i guarantee you wont come close

*go and spent 3-4 years eating a bad diet and see if you gain 60lb of muscle and end up leaner than you were at the beginning. again i guarantee you wont succeed

saying im just a keyboard warrior and that ive gathered knowledge from internet forums and such is nothing more than you projecting on me. i think you should look in the mirror. the words pot kettle and black spring to mind

dont beleive everything you read or hear mate. the best advise i can give you is to gather your knowledge and info from trusted sources, professionals and scientific evidence not from people on the internet with absurd claims. and most importantly test things out for yourself to see the real life evidence

AND JUST SAY THE WORD AND ILL POST THAT KERRY KEYES THING IN A HEART BEAT


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> is that really the best you could come up with? reading that article may change your entire philosophy and help you make better gains in years to come, it may allow you to become un-brainwashed.
> 
> why not read it? why not open your mind to the possibility that things you read may not be written in stone, especially in the face of all of this REAL-LIFE experience that testifies to the contrary?
> 
> don't be afraid.


thanks for the offer but ill pass thanks


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

All I know is the OP is unlikely to ask bodybuilding information over the internet again as long as he lives. This has got to be one of the funniest threads on this forum, I've come across. It's probably all the 'roids.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> i'll make it simple for the guys that have been viewing this thread, wondering who is right and who is wrong.
> 
> candrnow: +75lbs in 4-5 years, 115lbs to 190lbs @ ~15% bodyfat. advocates calories w/ enough protein + lifting hard as the keys to success in gaining muscular bodyweight, knows nothing else really matters (timing of carbs, absence of fat post- and pre-workout, etc.), knows that gaining more than 1lb muscle/week is entirely possible.
> 
> ...


you CLAIM to have gained about 50lb of pure muscle in 4-5 years but weres the proof. its just someone on an internet forum making a claim

nytol makes the absurd CLAIM to have gained 60lb of muscle by following a bad diet. again its just a CLAIM from a guy on the internet. and im sure anyone with a bit of sense will be able to figure out how silly a claim it is. 60lb of muscle with a bad diet ? does he think all people are dumb?

i think anyone reading my advice will think its realistic seens as any professional, expert or scientific data would agree with me. not being able to gain more than 1lb of muscle per week, the importance of fast carbs and protein in the post w/o window is sounds advice that regular people can find anywere

i also think people will understand that im human and im allowed to have a break from training and eat junk food and gain 40lb


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> wrong.
> 
> http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15386
> 
> ...


here is the post i promised from kerry keyes. bear in my mind kerry is a former bodybuilding champion who has been there and done it, he has trained ricky the hitman hatton and he has created the uk's best sports nutrition products ''CNP'' which are used by many professional athletes including ricky hatton in the past.
after reading this im sure you'll realise how stupid it sounds to claim to have gained 60lb of muscle in 3-4 years or 50lb of muscle or even worse 46lb pound of muscle in 6 months 
http://www.cnpprofessional.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=102


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## Revenwyn (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm a woman, I'm 5'4", weigh 215 pounds, size 12, have visible abs even though my ribs and waist are thicker than normal (I have a massive rib cage and bust... 40 DDD), and 19% body fat (low average for a woman, measured by hydrostatic weighing.) This means I'm 175 pounds in lean body mass. I bench 250 pounds (12 reps) and leg press 400, (24 reps) and have ever since I was 16. That's been about 12 years.


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

Revenwyn said:


> This means I'm 175 pounds in lean body mass. I bench 250 pounds (12 reps) and leg press 400, (24 reps) and have ever since I was 16. That's been about 12 years.


That's very impressive. Your lean body mass is more than both my lean and fat mass combined and I'm 5'11". Curious. What's your 1-RM in bench?


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## Gemini32 (Apr 12, 2011)

bodybuilding.com


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

jimbo00 said:


> but i've noticed with squats as the kg went up the form went real bad.. when I was doing upto around 60-70kg i could feel it nicely, but then when i got to 80-90kg I wasnt feeling much and it didnt seem like i was using the right muscles to get the bar up..


You are adding weight too quickly then, with a technical movement like the squat, until you have the form absolutely nailed, then add another set to practice, rather than up the weight, (that is about the only time you will ever hear me say that).



RenegadeReloaded said:


> What are the reasons ? You're the first one (that seems to be a trusted source) i hear that carbs ''are not even desirable'' post workout.
> 
> Glycogen is lost when u really stress your muscles, namely during heavy lifting, not other times of day, so that's why i still insist carbs post workout are a must. I serriously don't think the rebuilding process of the muscles in that window of opportunity after workout waits _hours_ for you to get carbs into the system, it just deals with what is present at the moment. If u miss that window, fast carbs are just deposited as fat if not used for energy.


Think of depleted glycogen as the contents of a bucket, during the WO, you use up some of the contents, but when ever you eat carbs, they will be deposited into that bucket, be that 5min post WO, or 5hrs.

The main stuff spouted regarding post WO carbs is the insulin response, well form someone who has used exogenous insulin in pretty much every way possible, I can tell you it is pretty ****, and what looks right on paper, is not always right in practice.



Kon said:


> The studies are kind of pointness because you can find any study to support your claim.


Absolutely!



paulyD said:


> carbs not being important post WO is an OPINION mate not a fact


No, I'm afraid it is fact, the timing of carbs is not important.



paulyD said:


> if you speak to any profesional body builder i doubt even 1% of them would say they dont beleive in carbs post workout or they dont beleive in the window of opportunity straight after weightlifting


Pro BB'ers, and top amateurs are some of the least knowledgeable people to ask about anything, their genetics get them where they are for the most part, some have blown my mind.

They know less than you, and that is saying something,  x

I never said anything about nutrition around training, just carbs, if you are going to quote, at least do it right.

Actually the avoidance of carbs post WO can be important, but that is way over your little head.



paulyD said:


> if youve gained 60lb of muscle in 3-4 years and you are actually leaner than when you started, and you achieved all of this with a poor diet then you are either :
> 
> *superhuman
> *deluded beyond beleif. living in some fantasy land, seeing a severly distorted view in the mirror
> *are one of the lucky few who are gentically gifted beyond beleif i.e ''_the exception to the rule_''


I just trained sensibly, nothing more, and I do not see getting to 210lbs at 6'1 anywhere near superhuman, do you?

Starting at 150lbs, at 6'1 does not put me in the genetic elite I'm sorry to say.

As for the mirror, well my avatar pic is me, as are these videos.

Take them as you wish, (these are all post AAS use, but I am far from deluded, and at around 240lbs, not huge by any means).

I eventually gained over 100lbs, (heaviest was 260lb), never force feeding myself, but I am sure that is absurd and delude thinking too is it sweet cheeks? :clap

In the UK I think the term 'Window Licker' would be applicable to you.

Older ones

http://www.youtube.com/user/Mattatministry

Newer ones

http://www.vimeo.com/user407389/videos



paulyD said:


> you CLAIM to have gained about 50lb of pure muscle in 4-5 years but weres the proof. its just someone on an internet forum making a claim
> 
> nytol makes the absurd CLAIM to have gained 60lb of muscle by following a bad diet. again its just a CLAIM from a guy on the internet. and im sure anyone with a bit of sense will be able to figure out how silly a claim it is. 60lb of muscle with a bad diet ? does he think all people are dumb?
> 
> ...


I think your an idiot, and a fat one at that who is telling people to eat more carbs, 

Will that make you feel more secure if everyone else is soft and chunky like yourself?

The internet is a great tool, but there is far more bad info than good out there.

For the less retarded people I'm happy to carry on the discussion, but Mr D, we'll have to agree to disagree, I'd also be happy to critique any pictures or videos you may have, but feel I'd be waiting a while, even with your super anabolic post WO 'carb window', (is is double glazed?).


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

paulyD said:


> here is the post i promised from kerry keyes. bear in my mind kerry is a former bodybuilding champion who has been there and done it, he has trained ricky the hitman hatton and he has created the uk's best sports nutrition products ''CNP'' which are used by many professional athletes including ricky hatton in the past.
> after reading this im sure you'll realise how stupid it sounds to claim to have gained 60lb of muscle in 3-4 years or 50lb of muscle or even worse 46lb pound of muscle in 6 months
> http://www.cnpprofessional.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=102


The only thing sounding stupid in this thread is you.

"BB'ing Champion" PMSL!


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> here is the post i promised from kerry keyes. bear in my mind kerry is a former bodybuilding champion who has been there and done it, he has trained ricky the hitman hatton and he has created the uk's best sports nutrition products ''CNP'' which are used by many professional athletes including ricky hatton in the past.
> after reading this im sure you'll realise how stupid it sounds to claim to have gained 60lb of muscle in 3-4 years or 50lb of muscle or even worse 46lb pound of muscle in 6 months
> http://www.cnpprofessional.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=102


he and all the others who say so are wrong, i just proved it by giving you the mark rippetoe link. all you need is one counter-example to prove something wrong, but rippetoe has seen this happen year after year after year. it's nothing atypical.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

Kon said:


> All I know is the OP is unlikely to ask bodybuilding information over the internet again as long as he lives. This has got to be one of the funniest threads on this forum, I've come across. It's probably all the 'roids.


no, all those guys are in agreement over what's important. it's this 40lbs overweight guy who begs to differ.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

Kon said:


> This has got to be one of the funniest threads on this forum, I've come across. It's probably all the 'roids.


It becomes funnier than caturday lol :clap This thread is epic


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

pauly's out of his element, we've shown that.

what do you observers think? who do you believe? have i done enough to sway your opinion?


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

Which of these do you agree with?

1. Volume: any difference between single sets or multiple sets of the same exercise with respect to gaining muscle?

2. Frequency: any difference between training 1-4 times/week (assume full body routines or equivalent split-body routines)? 

3. Type of movements: assuming you hit similar muscle groups, are compound movements (squats, deadlifts) really better than isolation-type (single joint exercises). For example are squats more effective for leg muscle size gain in comparison to leg extensions + leg curls + adduction exercise?

4. Which nutritional recommendations (if any) do you think is best for health and minimizing fat gain (e.g. low-carb, paleolithic, zone, etc.)?


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## jimbo00 (Nov 28, 2010)

just outa interest.. if you put on say 30kg or whatever.. how do you work out how much of that is muscle ?

or is it just weight gain vs bf % ?


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

Kon said:


> Which of these do you agree with?
> 
> 1. Volume: any difference between single sets or multiple sets of the same exercise with respect to gaining muscle?
> 
> ...


1) IMO most people use too much volume, with too little intensity.

I do one set to fail, per exercise, normally 2 exercise per body part, so 2 sets, every 14 days.

A beginner could not do that, and I'd recommend a 5x5 style program as outlined in BRAWN.

So the answer to that question depends on the person, and their training, experience, which is why such studies on the subject are flawed.

2) Yes, a huge difference, I made no gains training 4x per week, even though the overall volume was similar across body parts, days of total rest are essential for recovery.

Training 2x per week gives me optimal gains, and I am not the only one, however most are too afraid to even try it.

This week I will only train once due to life circumstances, but I'm not fussed, and will not try to squeeze in another session if it will compromise the one proper session.

3) There is no comparison between compound and isolation movements, the body does not work in isolation, and even the most genetically gifted people, who can get away with easy training, still gain best when doing the basics.

But the basics are hard, so most will use Hammer machines, Isolation exercises, and continue to look similar year in, year out.

4) Paleo without a doubt, for health and looks.


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

jimbo00 said:


> just outa interest.. if you put on say 30kg or whatever.. how do you work out how much of that is muscle ?
> 
> or is it just weight gain vs bf % ?


If you look visibly leaner after you gain, then you can be pretty sure that it is mostly lean tissue.

BF% and numbers mean little, if your training is based around how you look, or want to look, then the mirror tells all.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

i guess we're done here with the arguing, since pauly's been discredited as a fatty who's been talking out of his *** the whole time and spouting bullshet.

time for talk that's going to actually help people here.


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

LALoner said:


> Plateau breaking without drugs prolly doesn't work. If it does work its a complicated subject with all sorts of methods. But for the average person it doesn't matter. Your muscles decline from inactivity at TWICE the rate they advance from the best possible drug free training.
> 
> So after a year of doing things the right way your at your plateau. And then you get a cold. One week off, now it takes two weeks of work to get back to your peak. Then your too busy with work. Then your on a vacation. Then something else comes up. And every time you take time off it takes twice that time to get back to where you were before. So truthfully just staying at your drug free peak is so hard that you don't need any strange plateau busting methods gleaned from the internet.
> 
> .


That was my experience with it. I remember getting a bad cold or maybe it was strep. I couldn't lift for a couple of weeks. Then it took me 6 months to get back to benching the same weight. Basically it took me 2 1/2 years to gain 20 pounds, then I had a hard time breaking that plateau. I worked REALLy hard and varied my routine to get another 10 pounds on in a year. Then I had a bicycle acident and separated my shoulder. That extra 10 pounds melted off in a few weeks.


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

scarpia said:


> That was my experience with it. I remember getting a bad cold or maybe it was strep. I couldn't lift for a couple of weeks. Then it took me 6 months to get back to benching the same weight. Basically it took me 2 1/2 years to gain 20 pounds, then I had a hard time breaking that plateau. I worked REALLy hard and varied my routine to get another 10 pounds on in a year. Then I had a bicycle acident and separated my shoulder. That extra 10 pounds melted off in a few weeks.


I can relate to that, I've lost 10lb in 2 days before due to illness, and it has not come back, right away, so not just water loss.

A consistant routine would more than likely give you better progress.

For me not training is not an option, so if I have set backs, (tore my hamstring sprinting last year, very bad tear), I just carry on as best I can.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Nytol said:


> You are adding weight too quickly then, with a technical movement like the squat, until you have the form absolutely nailed, then add another set to practice, rather than up the weight, (that is about the only time you will ever hear me say that).
> 
> Think of depleted glycogen as the contents of a bucket, during the WO, you use up some of the contents, but when ever you eat carbs, they will be deposited into that bucket, be that 5min post WO, or 5hrs.
> 
> ...


i do see gaining 60lb of pure muscle with a bad diet and also ending up leaner than when you started as super human yes. how could i think any differently. i dont care what weight you are now and i dont care what weight you started at. the fact is that gaining 60lb of pure muscle alone is superhuman never mind with a bad diet.

its been scientifically proven as a fact that carbs post workout are needed but ok if nytol says that the opposite is a fact then it must be

i dont care if thats you in the videos or not. i havent even looked at them nor will i. there's no evidence to suggest that its acually you , it could be anyone. if it is you and you are big then like i said you're the execption to the rule. and i dont care how big you are YOU HAVENT GAINED 60LB OF SOLID MUSCLE

I'LL IGNORE YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT BEING A :

*window licker
*retard
*fatty
*idiot

its usually a sign of a person who shouldnt be listened to when they begin abusing other people. i hope the mods take note


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Nytol said:


> The only thing sounding stupid in this thread is you.
> 
> "BB'ing Champion" PMSL!


so kerry keyes has never won a pro bodybuilding competition no ?

whats your comments on kerrys thread?


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> he and all the others who say so are wrong, i just proved it by giving you the mark rippetoe link. all you need is one counter-example to prove something wrong, but rippetoe has seen this happen year after year after year. it's nothing atypical.


its funny how you think that mark riptoe thing is proof. i guess the fact that nytol claims to have gained 60lb of muscle with a bad diet is proof too? in your world maybe but not in the real world my friend.
just because someone on the internet makes a claim does not mean its proof

it has been SCIENTIFICALLY proven, scinetifically that it's impossible. THATS REAL WORLD PROOF not an internet claim from some average joe who has watched too many arni films. how much more evidence do you want. its been proven by science

and ive just posted a thread from a respected person in the bodybuilding world, not some guy making claims on the internet. kerry keyes is a former bodybuilder. he knows how stupid it is to claim that you can gain more than 1lb of muscle per week. he also sells supplements. he could have just said to me ''yes its possible to gain 4lb of muscle per week. ive actually got a special creatine formula and protein powder that helps you achieve this. just go on my website and buy my products'' but he never because he knows how stupid those claims are

i dont know why you would deny both science and people like kerry keyes but you'd listen to an internet poster like nytol

at the end of the day it doesnt matter who you listen to cos the proof is in the pudding. GO OUT THERE AND TRAIN AND DIET CORRECTLY AND GET YOU LEAN MASS AND BODY FAT TESTED BY PROFESSIONALS and see if you end up with the results that nytol is on about or the results that kerry keyes is on about

then come back on here and maybe i can begin to try and take you seriously


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> no, all those guys are in agreement over what's important. it's this 40lbs overweight guy who begs to differ.


im a normal person. im human. i have got a life and am entitled to eat bad foods, not train and gain weight just like any other normal human being.

im not claiming to be some super human guy who is capable of defying the laws of science by gaining 60lb of lean muscle whilst eating poorly


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> pauly's out of his element, we've shown that.
> 
> what do you observers think? who do you believe? have i done enough to sway your opinion?


pauly's out of his element ? how so ? because some guy called nytol is backing you up ?

its hard to admit when you are wrong. i'd urge you to just go out there into the real world and put your diet and training to the test and see if you end up with ''nytol'' results or ''paulyD'' results

you dont have to even come on here and admit you were wrong. you can still come on here and pretend you were right and that paulyD is out of his element. but at least you'll know the truth deep down

go on, go out there and try and gain 60lb on lean muscle . the proof is in the pudding


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> i guess we're done here with the arguing, since pauly's been discredited as a fatty who's been talking out of his *** the whole time and spouting bullshet.
> 
> time for talk that's going to actually help people here.


again how did you work that one out? cos some guy on the net called nytol , who abuses people, disagrees with me ?


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> pauly's out of his element, we've shown that.
> 
> what do you observers think? who do you believe? have i done enough to sway your opinion?


candrnow dont be a sucker and listen to everything people like nytol tell you. maybe this will help you :

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki2.htm

*and here's a quote from arni himself :

Even Arnold Schwarzenegger, who combined extremely favorable genetics with a Herculean work ethic (as well as a little pharmaceutical assistance), was very happy when he gained 25 pounds in WEIGHT (not just muscle) over a 12-month period. Here's what he wrote in his autobiography _Arnold: The Education of a Bodybuilder_... 
Many people regret having to serve in the Army. But it was not a waste of time for me. When I came out I weighed 225 pounds. I'd gone from 200 to 225. Up to that time, this was the biggest change I'd ever made in a single year. 
So if Arnold is saying that 25 pounds was as much as he'd ever gained in one year (and not all of this was muscle), you'd be doing extremely well just to match it, let alone beat it.

*dont let people lead you astray


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## Nytol (Apr 28, 2011)

paulyD said:


> so kerry keyes has never won a pro bodybuilding competition no ?


No.

And for the record you started with the name calling  xxx

You are boring me now, best of luck for your future training.

(and it was 100lb gain, if you wish to be accurate, at least with something )


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

no point in arguing with you pauly, i'm not even going to read anything you wrote up there and anything you write anymore. you're a parrot with nothing to show for all of your "knowledge" except for 40lbs of fat. that's enough to let anyone know you dunno what you're talking about. you're lucky, if this weren't an SA forum, i would say much worse and tear you to shreds.

once again:



candrnow said:


> *i'll make it simple for the guys that have been viewing this thread, wondering who is right and who is wrong.
> 
> candrnow: +75lbs in 4-5 years, 115lbs to 190lbs @ ~15% bodyfat. advocates calories w/ enough protein + lifting hard as the keys to success in gaining muscular bodyweight, knows nothing else really matters (timing of carbs, absence of fat post- and pre-workout, etc.), knows that gaining more than 1lb muscle/week is entirely possible.
> 
> ...


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

Continued from above...

5. *Periodization*. Do you guys think continually changing training parameters (periodization) such as types of exercises, number of sets, intensity techniques (forced reps, negatives, drop-sets, etc.), etc. is essential for maintaining long-term size and strength gains? Or is it just another over-hyped bodybuilding myth?


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

it's unnecessary for beginners and intermediates. if you're in those categories, it's best to keep things simple as possible and make it your goal to just progress every single time by adding weight to the bar and/or increasing reps. i think varying your training down the road can be fun and beneficial, but in the beginning, you want to keep things very simple.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Kon said:


> Continued from above...
> 
> 5. *Periodization*. Do you guys think continually changing training parameters (periodization) such as types of exercises, number of sets, intensity techniques (forced reps, negatives, drop-sets, etc.), etc. is essential for maintaining long-term size and strength gains? Or is it just another over-hyped bodybuilding myth?


its a myth that you have to change your exercises and routine frequently to continue to get results

what you have to do is either lift more weight each session or do more reps each session or rest for shorter periods of times each session. you could stick to the same exercises and the same routine year in year out just as long as you make changes to the reps, weights and rest periods


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Nytol said:


> No.
> 
> And for the record you started with the name calling  xxx
> 
> ...


nope never called anyone one single name


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> no point in arguing with you pauly, i'm not even going to read anything you wrote up there and anything you write anymore. you're a parrot with nothing to show for all of your "knowledge" except for 40lbs of fat. that's enough to let anyone know you dunno what you're talking about. you're lucky, if this weren't an SA forum, i would say much worse and tear you to shreds.
> 
> once again:


its funny how once I post qoutes from trusted people like arnold swarzanegger and kerry keyes and an article from a trusted website ''bodybuilding.com'' that condrnow and nytol have nothing to say in response and decide that its game over

*AND FOR THE RECORD I URGE ANYONE TO LOOK AT THE PHOTO THAT CONDRNOW POSTED OF THAT GUY ON THE MARK RIPTOE THING. THE GUY WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE GAINED 46LB OF LEAN MUSCLE IN 6 MONTHS .

JUST LOOK AT THE STATE OF THE GUY. HE DOESNT EVEN LOOK LIKE HE HAS GAINED 10LB OF MUSCLE NEVER MIND 46LB. HE HAS HARDLY ANY MUSCLE DEFINITION WHAT SO EVER. FOR SOMEONE TO GAIN 46LB OF MUSCLE THEY'D LOOK LIKE A BEAST. SADLY THIS GUY JUST LOOKS LIKE A WEED


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> i'll make it simple for the guys that have been viewing this thread, wondering who is right and who is wrong.
> 
> candrnow: +75lbs in 4-5 years, 115lbs to 190lbs @ ~15% bodyfat. advocates calories w/ enough protein + lifting hard as the keys to success in gaining muscular bodyweight, knows nothing else really matters (timing of carbs, absence of fat post- and pre-workout, etc.), knows that gaining more than 1lb muscle/week is entirely possible.
> 
> ...


*NO CANDRNOW WONT MAKE IT SIMPLE FOR YOU GUYS. I WILL MAKE IT SIMPLE FOR YOU GUYS:*

_go out into the real world and get yourself a top class nutrition plan and a top class training routine (maybe even get a personal trainer to help you). take before and after shots and get your body fat % and lean mass tested by professionals (or use skinfold calipers yuorself at home ) _

_*_reveiw your results and from that real life evidence you can decide who makes the most sense paulyD or candrnow and his sidekick nytol

THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> HAHAHA go out into the real world and try and gain 46lb of muscle in 6 months
> 
> go and see for yourself how deluded you are. its alrite you chatting balls on this forum infront of everyone else and putting on a front. but there'll be nowere to hide once reality smacks you in the face
> 
> hahahahahahahahaha what a ****ing tool


got that PM from pauly. i like how he cries and moans about people calling him names in this thread and then PMs me and calls me a tool.

i, on the other hand, will call it as i see it right to your face. pauly, you're fat and gullible. you're 40lbs overweight (christ, how do you let yourself go that much? especially when you have SO much knowledge. it's disgusting and pathetic). hop on a treadmill porkchop. meanwhile, i'm sitting here 190lbs @ 15% bodyfat and i look and feel great.  nytol and i are walking examples of where hard work can get you, you're a sitting-on-the-couch-stuffing-your-face example of a porky pig who's never been in the gym. and yes, i'll post pics when i get home from college and have access to a camera. 

anyways, i don't see what the big deal is. mark rippetoe (look him up guys, respected strength/weightlifting/track&field coach based out of wichita, texas) churns out kids who put on large amounts of muscle in short periods of time. it's nothing atypical.

again:



candrnow said:


> i'll make it simple for the guys that have been viewing this thread, wondering who is right and who is wrong.
> 
> candrnow: +75lbs in 4-5 years, 115lbs to 190lbs @ ~15% bodyfat. advocates calories w/ enough protein + lifting hard as the keys to success in gaining muscular bodyweight, knows nothing else really matters (timing of carbs, absence of fat post- and pre-workout, etc.), knows that gaining more than 1lb muscle/week is entirely possible.
> 
> ...


----------



## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

2006: this is what i looked like at 130lbs, 1.5 months after i started weightlifting and eating (started at 115lbs). once again, for the record, i am 190lbs now @ ~15% bf.










as skinny and weak i was back then, it's probably better than paulyD has ever looked his entire life, even after having read all of those useless books he's bought.

:steam:

to everyone else reading this: i'm usually not this mean, but an idiot is an idiot.

i found an old vid too, 175lbs here. can't see much of the body (although i don't give a **** what i look like) but thought i'd post it up anyways.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

While some guys here continue to argue, i'm more curious about cwq.

So, are u still around ? How's your diet and training ? Did u managed to calculate (at least approximately) how many calories u eat in a day ? It will take you some time to accommodate with weighting each product that is not packed, or if u don't eat the whole pack, u must weight it. You will go like this for a month or two, but by then, u will know w/o weighting and looking down the calories table how much grams a products has, and how much calories it has.

When you're out you could bring with u nuts/seeds or some weighted healthy meal from home (yeah i know it's hard for ppl with sa to attract attention like that).

Try to stick to unprocessed healthy foods: meat (all are good, but oceanic fish, cow as a priority), eggs (not fried in oil as fried oil is toxic), milk products (yogurt, cheese, sour creme, butter), nuts and seeds (for fats), vegetables. And try to avoid fast absorption carbohydrates as you're on a losing fat diet: too many fruits (if u really have to eat them, be like max 500 g per day, preferably after training), cereals (except oats), potatoes, rice, and generally any product that contains sugar (i think u know this ones)

U can cook them and combine them however u want, add spices to them. But keeps these rules in mid: u gotta have a protein source (meat, egg, milk products) at every meal, and enough fats through the day, the rest for your meals u complete with carbs. Try to have at least 4 meals/day, if u can have more than that then it;s great. Meals before and after training should be richer in calories.

I still don't have links to english calorie tables and meal calculators, maybe someone knows some cool ones, I can't just link u first results on google. Anyone here has ?

Normal weight loss rate should be like ~1 kg/week, u weight yourself every week in the morning after going to the toilet and before eating/drinking water (should i say at least 2 l water/day is a must ?)



candrnow, u look to be an ectomorph, u have more recent pics ? i can't see well in that vid. usually ectomorphs are hard gainers, that mass gain u had was unusual looking at numbers, but prove me wrong.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> candrnow, u look to be an ectomorph, u have more recent pics ? i can't see well in that vid. usually ectomorphs are hard gainers, that mass gain u had was unusual looking at numbers, but prove me wrong.


why is my mass gain unusual? i suppose there IS something unusual about hard work and dedication. :roll lots of guys have better transformations than i have. visit tnation or bodybuilding.com. 75lbs in 4-5 years is NOTHING. hell, look at that link i posted above. dude gained 80lbs in 6 MONTHS.

to put on bodyweight you need calories. to put on muscular mass, you need calories + iron. that's it. doesn't matter what "morph" you are. those terms are so meaningless.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

candrnow said:


> why is my mass gain unusual? i suppose there IS something unusual about hard work and dedication. :roll lots of guys have better transformations than i have. visit tnation or bodybuilding.com. 75lbs in 4-5 years is NOTHING. hell, look at that link i posted above. dude gained 80lbs in 6 MONTHS.
> 
> to put on bodyweight you need calories. to put on muscular mass, you need calories + iron. that's it. doesn't matter what "morph" you are. those terms are so meaningless.


then u are not an completely an ectomorph, but by the anatomy of the first pic o seem like one. and yeah i know all ppl are not categorised by those 3 somatic types, as they are a hybrid of them, but still, they tell some things about a person.

i'm saying this cause i kept in touch with some ectomorphs and they had a hard time gaining mass over the years.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> i'm saying this cause i kept in touch with some ectomorphs and they had a hard time gaining mass over the years.


it's because they didn't eat. it has nothing to do with in which of the 3 (completely meaningless) categories you're lumped into. ectomorphs aren't "hard-gainers," that's an excuse they like to use to justify their skinniness, and that's the truth. i know because i used to use it myself. i also used to buy dextrose and maltodextrin (3 tablespoons each!!! -- srsly, i measured them out by grams via a freaking measuring spoon :bash :bash :bash) and mix them with whey post-workout, making sure to not get near a single microgram of fat in that "critical post-workout window where insulin sensitivity is highest!!!!"

god i was an idiot.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> got that PM from pauly. i like how he cries and moans about people calling him names in this thread and then PMs me and calls me a tool.
> 
> i, on the other hand, will call it as i see it right to your face. pauly, you're fat and gullible. you're 40lbs overweight (christ, how do you let yourself go that much? especially when you have SO much knowledge. it's disgusting and pathetic). hop on a treadmill porkchop. meanwhile, i'm sitting here 190lbs @ 15% bodyfat and i look and feel great.  nytol and i are walking examples of where hard work can get you, you're a sitting-on-the-couch-stuffing-your-face example of a porky pig who's never been in the gym. and yes, i'll post pics when i get home from college and have access to a camera.
> 
> ...


there you go again with the pot kettle balck nonsense calling me *''gullable''*. me ? the guy who is realistic? the guy who is honest ? the guy who sets realistic muscle gaining targets? you're saying im gullable ? you're the person who beleives a guy , who looks terrible, on the mark riptoe things has gained 46lb of muscle in 6 months, you're the guy who beleives every word nytol says , you beleive nytol gained 60lb of muscle, and you even beleive that little voive inside your own head that tells you that you gained 50lb of lean muscle. Arnold Schwarzenegger couldnt gain 46lb of lean muscle in 6 months but you are gullable enough to beleive that a guy who looks awful has achieved this imposssible dream.

im grounded in reality though mate. i might be walking round 40lb overweight but at least im honest and at least im realistic. to claim you can gain more than 1lb of muscle per week or even worse to claim to have gained over 50lb of muscle is just living in a fantasy land. you need to get back to reality mate

and i cant beleive you are bringing mark riptoe back into things. the guy in that picture who claims to have gained 46lb is in terrible shape, he doesnt even look like he's gained 10lb. and you are using that as proof. it just shows how seriously deluded you are 
mark riptoe is a STRENGH coach not a bodybuilder. his expertese is in gaining strengh not muscle

here is a qoute from someone off the internet:
*I've seen pictures of Mark Rippetoe. Why would I take nutritional advice from a guy who looks like that?*

step down from planet zod and live in the real world for once


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> 2006: this is what i looked like at 130lbs, 1.5 months after i started weightlifting and eating (started at 115lbs). once again, for the record, i am 190lbs now @ ~15% bf.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yet another example of how deluded you are. using that pic to big yourself up and say i bet pauly's never been in this good shape before 

get real. come back down to earth. you look absolutely disgusting in that picture. infact i'd go as far as to you actually look sick i.e unwell

ive seen wider forearms than your waist


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

i found an old vid too, 175lbs here. can't see much of the body (although i don't give a **** what i look like) but thought i'd post it up anyways.





[/QUOTE]

hashahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa:clap:clap:clap:clap

thanks for doing all the hard work for me. thanks for proving yourself wrong . now i dont have to hahahahahahahaha

in that video you are 175lb. earlier on you said at 190lb you had gained 50lb of muscle. therefore at 175lb you must have gained over 30lb of muscle by that stage. so in that video is you at 175lb having packed on 30+ pound of lean muscle. hahahaha are you serious ? look at the state of you. your legs are like match sticks and then when you take your top off WERE IS THE MUSCLE ? i cant see it. surely if you'd packed on over 30lb of lean muscle we'd be able to see it. i dont think you even realise how much 30lb of muscle is. if you'd gained that amount it would be glaringly obvious. you'd have bulging calfs for starters. and you'd be built like a breast up top. WERE IS THE 30LB OF MUSCLE YOU PACKED ON. WERE IS IT HIDING

IF YOU'D GAINED 30+LB OF MUSCLE IT WOULD SHOW UP ON YOUR BODY

hahahahahahahahahahaha:teeth:teeth:teeth GGUUULLLLLAAAABBBLLLLEEEE, DDDEEELLLLUUUDDDDEEED


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

I haven't read all thes arguments, but I want to say that I found it impossible to gain more that 10 pounds of muscle mass per year. I went from 140 to 160 in about 2 1/2 years. I hit a plateau for about a year and then broke through with a year of lifting as heavy as I could - just a few sets of one rep - for a while. Got up to 170. And that's pretty much all I could gain - 30 pounds. I don't know what would have happened if I had not separated my shoulder and dropped back down to 160. I stopped lifting for a few years and stayed at 160. Then I hit weights again and got to 185 in a few years. But it was not all muscle. It gets harder to keep the body fat low as you get on into your 30s. 

From my experience I find it hard to believe anyone can gain more than 10 pounds a year without roids. And I find it hard to believe someone can gain more than 40 pound of muscle without roids. I saw the baseball players who got all bulked up by 30 pounds in an offseason. I knew they were using roids. Then they finally got outed years later. Do you see how they shrivelled up after going off the roids? Jason Giambi and Sammy Sosa looked like deflated balloons.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

scarpia said:


> I haven't read all thes arguments, but I want to say that I found it impossible to gain more that 10 pounds of muscle mass per year. I went from 140 to 160 in about 2 1/2 years. I hit a plateau for about a year and then broke through with a year of lifting as heavy as I could - just a few sets of one rep - for a while. Got up to 170. And that's pretty much all I could gain - 30 pounds. I don't know what would have happened if I had not separated my shoulder and dropped back down to 160. I stopped lifting for a few years and stayed at 160. Then I hit weights again and got to 185 in a few years. But it was not all muscle. It gets harder to keep the body fat low as you get on into your 30s.
> 
> From my experience I find it hard to believe anyone can gain more than 10 pounds a year without roids. And I find it hard to believe someone can gain more than 40 pound of muscle without roids. I saw the baseball players who got all bulked up by 30 pounds in an offseason. I knew they were using roids. Then they finally got outed years later. Do you see how they shrivelled up after going off the roids? Jason Giambi and Sammy Sosa looked like deflated balloons.


at last someone grounded in reality living in the real world .

thanks you scarpia. thank you for talking sense


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

> earlier on you said at 190lb you had gained 50lb of muscle


what? when did i ever say that? find me the quote. all i've ever said is that i'm 190lbs at 15% bodyfat right now. it's the truth.

pauly, you're stupid and fat. i'm strong and muscular.

me @ 5'8" 170lbs:










most of my mass is in the lower body. i look good up top tho.you say my calves would be blown up? what the hell? do you have any idea what you're talking about???


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> what? when did i ever say that? find me the quote. all i've ever said is that i'm 190lbs at 15% bodyfat right now. it's the truth.
> 
> pauly, you're stupid and fat. i'm strong and muscular.
> 
> ...


MATE - youve just blOWN YOUR COVER big time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*in your video - YOU'VE GOT MATCHSTICK LEGS

*in your new pic - YOU'VE GOT THUNDER THIGHS

yet in your video you weigh 175 lb but in the picture you weigh only 170lb 

if you weighed 5lb more in your video than you did in your ''_thunder thighs'' _pic then how come you've got match stick legs and not thunder thighs in the video??????????

(P.S - o yes you are claiming to have gained 50lb of muscle . you said you gained 75lb and are only 15% body fat. 15% body fat is only 5% from being lean. if you are only 5% from being lean you cant have gained more than 25lb of fat. 75-25 = 50lb of muscle gained. 
i said a million times during this argument that you are claiming to have gained 50lb of muscle and you havent denyed it once )

and that thing about the calves. what planet are you on? if you gained 30lb of muscle your calves would be huge especially as ''most of my mass is in my lower body '' (your words not mine )


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> _''pauly, you're stupid and fat. i'm strong and muscular.''
> _
> HAHHA no you're not strong and muscular. in your video you are only 15lb away from what you weigh now (190lb). and in the video you've got match stick legs (even though most of your mass is in the lower body as you said) and a flabby stomach and no definition on the upper body what so ever
> 
> ...


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

In the video if you look during max depth of his squat his upper legs are big and you only see a portion of his upper legs at side view, shorts cover most of it. Doing deep squats regularly like that you see the smaller calves and big upper legs...pretty common physique. Hard to get that kind of growth in your gastro/soleus unless you get implants or a short achilles that allows for lots of growth in the calves. 

I won't drop much into the rest of the argument, I'm very skeptical of gaining 46 lbs of muscle in 6 months, but so what? Most people have little clue on how to put on mass correctly, way too many variables to determine how much you're going to gain in an certain amount of time. Supplements are there to "supplement" your nutritional intake but they can provide optimal conditions for muscle hypertrophy, but they are not a necessity. 15% bf is kind of soft, no joke and always a huge visible diffy from 15 to 10%


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

yes, that is definitely me at 170lbs. i have those same legs in the video i posted. you called nytol a liar and now you call me a liar. we're not making anything up. my upper body looks great right now, it's strong and muscular. you can't tell much from the camera angle i guess, just like you can't tell how big my thighs are from that camera angle. but it's there.

why would my calves be big if i don't train them? who the HELL cares about calves?


















look at brock lesnar's calves. dude is 270lbs but doesn't train his calves - he's squatted 700. jesus, you're a retard.



paulyD said:


> there you go again with the pot kettle balck nonsense calling me *''gullable''*.


and dude, it's spelled "gullible." hilariously, you thought i spelled it incorrectly and bolded "gullable" in order to make me feel stupid. you're almost 30 years old, 40lbs overweight, and you don't know how to spell. great stuff.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gullible


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

Prodigal Son said:


> In the video if you look during max depth of his squat his upper legs are big and you only see a portion of his upper legs at side view, shorts cover most of it. Doing deep squats regularly like that you see the smaller calves and big upper legs...pretty common physique. Hard to get that kind of growth in your gastro/soleus unless you get implants or a short achilles that allows for lots of growth in the calves.
> 
> I won't drop much into the rest of the argument, I'm very skeptical of gaining 46 lbs of muscle in 6 months, but so what? Most people have little clue on how to put on mass correctly, way too many variables to determine how much you're going to gain in an certain amount of time. Supplements are there to "supplement" your nutritional intake but they can provide optimal conditions for muscle hypertrophy, but they are not a necessity. 15% bf is kind of soft, no joke and always a huge visible diffy from 15 to 10%


thanks for that. i agree, 15% isn't anything special. paulyD said i'm supposed to look like a bodybuilder at 190lbs @ 15% bf though. :roll (yeah, he actually did write those exact words, lol).


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

scarpia said:


> I want to say that I found it impossible to gain more that 10 pounds of muscle mass per year.


Correct. That's what I knew too. We're talking here about clean muscle tissue, no using of roids. Of course there are exception to this general rule.



scarpia said:


> candrnow, u look to be an ectomorph, u have more recent pics ? i can't see well in that vid.


still waiting for a photo. i just said i can't see well at that video where u do squats, i just see some part of the legs....and yet u come with another picture of the legs.

Great quads, but i still wanna see a general pic.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

RenegadeReloaded said:


> Correct. That's what I knew too. We're talking here about clean muscle tissue, no using of roids. Of course there are exception to this general rule.
> 
> still waiting for a photo. i just said i can't see well at that video where u do squats, i just see some part of the legs....and yet u come with another picture of the legs.
> 
> Great quads, but i still wanna see a general pic.


**** off, you've been posting dumb **** in this thread too. don't tell me what to do. i'm extremely proud of where my body is at right now, that's good enough for me. you clearly read the multiple times where i said i don't have access to a camera, so shut the **** up and wait patiently like your fat friend.

10lbs of muscle per YEAR????? even pauly disagrees with you on that one. he claims 1lb of muscle per week.

ECTOMORPH/MESOMORPH/ENDOMORPH????? IMPOSSIBLE FOR ECTOS TO GAIN WEIGHT??????? you don't know anything. hell earlier in the thread, you implied the only thing important to you was a SIX PACK, of all things.



> i still ain't got six pack now, but i got 4 pack so it's only a matter of time to lose the remaining fat.


i mean, i think it's great if you're over-weight and trying to lose weight, but this clearly indicates to me you're another pauly. why are you posting in this thread offering information if the yardstick by which you measure success is a six pack? this is a thread about gaining weight bro, not the number of abs you have.

ultimately, lifting weights isn't about six packs or calf size or arm size. you people who train purely for cosmetic purposes are retards. weightlifting is about character: repetition, honesty, dedication.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

alright guys, i'm done for now. Finals starts Monday, gotta get cracking on those books, won't be online much at all for the next week or so.

pauly and RR: take your best shots during the next few days i'm gone. 4-5 years ago i was 115lbs, right now i'm 190lbs @ ~15% bodyfat, like i've always claimed. that's the truth.

i also think you guys think 15% bodyfat is very shredded or something? it's not. that actually may be why you are skeptical, but i posted these links earlier and you probably didn't even view them.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/86686-body-fat-pics.html
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=114048031

15% is defined on the first page as:



> *Some muscle separation appears between delts and upper arm. Abs are still not visible. *


 Yup, sounds about right for me.

will post pics after i get home in about 1.5 weeks? something like that.


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## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

This doen't sound unreasonable depending on how old you were at 115. I think I was about 130-135 back in high school - a VERY skinny teenager. I didn't measure my body fat but it was very low. 

At 115 a skinny teen might be 111 pounds of lean mass and 4 pounds of fat. Adding 50 pounds of lean mass and 25 pounds of fat gets you to 190. The 50 pounds of lean mass might be 40 pounds of muscle and 10 pounds from increased bone mass and density. That would be possible in 5 years. I knew guys who were really skinny teenagers who gained 30-40 pounds without lifting weights. Many guys fill out between age 17 and 25.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

scarpia said:


> This doen't sound unreasonable depending on how old you were at 115. I think I was about 130-135 back in high school - a VERY skinny teenager. I didn't measure my body fat but it was very low.
> 
> At 115 a skinny teen might be 111 pounds of lean mass and 4 pounds of fat. Adding 50 pounds of lean mass and 25 pounds of fat gets you to 190. The 50 pounds of lean mass might be 40 pounds of muscle and 10 pounds from increased bone mass and density. That would be possible in 5 years. I knew guys who were really skinny teenagers who gained 30-40 pounds without lifting weights. Many guys fill out between age 17 and 25.


yeah that's a great point, a significant portion of my weight gain could have been due to increases in skeletal density, lifting weights does that. this is why i never ever in this thread stated how much muscle i had gained - it's pauly who's been putting words in my mouth. i have always maintained that i was 115lbs 4-5 years ago and 190lbs @ 15% bodyfat now. i suppose pauly forgot about bone density being an important factor, which is understandable i guess.

anyways, now i'm really out. no sleeping for the next week! woooooooh! :no


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

candrnow said:


> yeah that's a great point, a significant portion of my weight gain could have been due to increases in skeletal density, lifting weights does that.


This is a huge confounding factor and confuses/tricks a lot of young bodybuilders/strength athletes. Most people will continue to gain muscle and skeletal mass up until around 25 years old (sometimes even older) even if they don't lift weights.

But it's quite difficult to put on significant lean muscle tissue after you reach full muscle and skeletal maturity, at least without steroids/drugs. Of course, if you just eat like crazy you will put on muscle along with the fat because some muscle always comes along with fat gain, even without lifting weights. But when you diet down to the same bodyfat% as before, you will lose almost all of that muscle gained. That's been my experience. I think it's very hard for people to put on much more than 15-20 lbs. of lean muscle tissue past the age of 25, naturally.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Prodigal Son said:


> In the video if you look during max depth of his squat his upper legs are big and you only see a portion of his upper legs at side view, shorts cover most of it. Doing deep squats regularly like that you see the smaller calves and big upper legs...pretty common physique. Hard to get that kind of growth in your gastro/soleus unless you get implants or a short achilles that allows for lots of growth in the calves.
> 
> I won't drop much into the rest of the argument, I'm very skeptical of gaining 46 lbs of muscle in 6 months, but so what? Most people have little clue on how to put on mass correctly, way too many variables to determine how much you're going to gain in an certain amount of time. Supplements are there to "supplement" your nutritional intake but they can provide optimal conditions for muscle hypertrophy, but they are not a necessity. 15% bf is kind of soft, no joke and always a huge visible diffy from 15 to 10%


those thighs in the pciture are not the same thighs in the video


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> yes, that is definitely me at 170lbs. i have those same legs in the video i posted. you called nytol a liar and now you call me a liar. we're not making anything up. my upper body looks great right now, it's strong and muscular. you can't tell much from the camera angle i guess, just like you can't tell how big my thighs are from that camera angle. but it's there.
> 
> why would my calves be big if i don't train them? who the HELL cares about calves?
> 
> ...


me highlighting the word GULLABLE had nothing to do with me trying to point out a spelling mistake. i highlighted that word to show that a guy who is gullable enough to beleive a person can gain 46lb of muscle in 6 months is calling another guy, who is realistic and grounded in reality , gullable

ooo no i cant spell. and what ?

o surprise suprise now that everyone has seen your tiny calves you tell us that you dont train calves. typical. and you call me stupid for suggesting that you would have big calves if you gained 75lb but how was i to know you dont ''train calves''?

THOSE THIGHS IN THE PICTURE ARE NOT THE THIGHS IN THE VIDEO


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> thanks for that. i agree, 15% isn't anything special. paulyD said i'm supposed to look like a bodybuilder at 190lbs @ 15% bf though. :roll (yeah, he actually did write those exact words, lol).


10% is lean . it doesnt take much of a fat gain to go from lean to 15% fat. thats why im saying if you gained 75lb and you are only 15% body fat then you can only have gained about 25lb of fat

that leaves 50 of muscle gain to make up the 75lb gain

im not saying at 15% you are lean and should have a 6 pack. you are putting words in my mouth


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

candrnow said:


> **** off, you've been posting dumb **** in this thread too. don't tell me what to do. i'm extremely proud of where my body is at right now, that's good enough for me. you clearly read the multiple times where i said i don't have access to a camera, so shut the **** up and wait patiently like your fat friend.
> 
> 10lbs of muscle per YEAR????? even pauly disagrees with you on that one. he claims 1lb of muscle per week.
> 
> ...


First of all, that ''fu*k off'' just shows distress on your side, or lack of confidence, or maybe fear that we may all see your ''progress'' if u actually posted a pic with you're whole body before/after. I think that's also the reason why you try to find excuses why u just CAN'T post a that pic.

Second, pauly is pauly, me is me. Don't put us together. Some of our opinions are the same about this sport, some aren't. And no, we are not friends.

About somatic types, u clearly don't want to admit that and think there are just fantasies. Your opinion, u choose to ignore them. U stated i said for ectomoprh its impossible to gain weight - wrong, just read with attention next time what i write.

I implied the important thing is a six pack, not the only important thing, like u stated. But particulary for me, as i am in a weight-loss period, six pack is all the proof I need to be satisfied with my overall bodyfat. The reason behind this is simple. Usually, the last remaining fat to be burned is in this area, and having a six pack is a really good indicator your body-fat percentage is low. Also, it looks great for a bodybuilder and I consider it's a must have if u really wanna look good. Loss of definition in the abdomen area shows u still have a lot of fat to lose.

''i mean, i think it's great if you're over-weight and trying to lose weight, but this clearly indicates to me you're another pauly.''

From the last pic I saw u posted here, u have a flabby belly and clearly more fat than me, so I dunno who's more overweight. I still got a 4-pack at the moment, last 3-5 kg is gonna show a 6 pack in about 3-4 weeks. Do u even got a 2-pack ? (read above about why i find it important to have definition in the abdomen area). Anyway, I'm sure u will find a way to post a pic to contradict me, but that's not gonna happen since u decided to run away from this thread for a few days. Maybe you're just frustrated and u gonna lift hard, gain more muscle, lose some blubber and after you're satisfied, you're gonna return to the forum with good pics, anyway, don't use roids during this period, and don't starve to death, ok ?

And it is a thread about gaining weight, but it's about the thread starter, and he said he was already overweight, so he will not be able to see muscle gains that well under that lair of fat. So he is gonna have to lose some to show his muscles. As a personal opinion, I believe it;s way better for your self confidence to look in the mirror and to see yourself ripped, rather than with 3-5 kg of muscles more, but all of that covered in blubber. It's way better even if other ppl look at you, not to mention the opposite sex, especially if u have sa. And i do believe that one of the reasons for the thread starter wanting to lose weight, besides general health, is the way ppl will perceive and judge him, cause image counts a lot these days.

I usually don't attack ppl, i tried to be relatively civilized and not use dirty word here where candrnow provoked me, cause still it's a civilized forum, but I don't like to let myself run over like that.



Kon said:


> This is a huge confounding factor and confuses/tricks a lot of young bodybuilders/strength athletes. Most people will continue to gain muscle and skeletal mass up until around 25 years old (sometimes even older) even if they don't lift weights.
> 
> But it's quite difficult to put on significant lean muscle tissue after you reach full muscle and skeletal maturity, at least without steroids/drugs. Of course, if you just eat like crazy you will put on muscle along with the fat because some muscle always comes along with fat gain, even without lifting weights. But when you diet down to the same bodyfat% as before, you will lose almost all of that muscle gained. That's been my experience. I think it's very hard for people to put on much more than 15-20 lbs. of lean muscle tissue past the age of 25, naturally.


I agree with the fact that after that age, gaining mass is harder.

ABout bulking, there is a way to break that bulk-cut-bulk-cut cycle, and thats the way where you're in between. U adjust your calories to minimize fat gain along with muscle gain, even lower your rapid carbs intake if u must. This way you will not gain muscles as fast as in bulking periods, but u will not gain that much fat either. Per total, the muscle gain speed is relatively the same, but u will always be ripped (aka visible abs/low body fat).


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> **** off, you've been posting dumb **** in this thread too. don't tell me what to do. i'm extremely proud of where my body is at right now, that's good enough for me. you clearly read the multiple times where i said i don't have access to a camera, so shut the **** up and wait patiently like your fat friend.
> 
> 10lbs of muscle per YEAR????? even pauly disagrees with you on that one. he claims 1lb of muscle per week.
> 
> ...


surpirse surprise !!!!!!!!! someone disagree's with candrnow so he starts swearing and abusing people . haha

and no i never disagreed with a 10lb per year muscle gain. i said the max amount of muscle you can gain per week is 1lb but i didnt say you can continuosly gain that amount week after week for a whole year.

and for the record renegade reloaded has not been posting dumb **** in this thread. he has been making a lot of sense


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> alright guys, i'm done for now. Finals starts monday, gotta get cracking on those books, won't be online much at all for the next week or so.
> 
> Pauly and rr: Take your best shots during the next few days i'm gone. 4-5 years ago i was 115lbs, right now i'm 190lbs @ ~15% bodyfat, like i've always claimed. That's the truth.
> 
> ...


hahahah surprise surprise now that candrnow's deluded side kick nytol has disapeared and other people are beginning to question candrnows veiws what does he do :

*he makes his excuses and then disapears toO

hahahaha deluded liar !!!!!!


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

Jesus, you people need to be more humble about your training. I think the way cards train is fine, at least he's putting his stuff up. Pauly, pics or shut up.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> Jesus, you people need to be more humble about your training. I think the way cards train is fine, at least he's putting his stuff up. Pauly, pics or shut up.


im not making absurd claims. im not saying ''hey look at me ive gained 50lb of muscle so you must liten to my advice ''

im honest . im walking around 40lb overweight at the moment so theres no point me posting pics cos im not in good shape. it doesnt mean i dont know what im talking about though and it doesnt mean i havent been successful in the past or that i dont have a lot of knowledge on bodybuilding

if i did post pics at least they would be real and not blag like the thunder thighs/ matchstick legs shambles


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

What do you guys think of these guidelines?

The preponderance of research strongly suggests that gains in muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, and endurance are the result of the following simple guidelines: 

• *Select a mode of exercise that feels comfortable throughout the range of motion*. _There is very little evidence to support the superiority of free weights or machines for increasing muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, or endurance. _

• *Choose a repetition duration that will ensure the maintenance of consistent form throughout the set*. _One study showed a greater strength benefit from a shorter duration (2s/4s) and one study showed better strength gains as a result of a longer duration (10s/4s), but no study using conventional exercise equipment reports any significant difference in muscular hypertrophy, power, or endurance as a result of manipulating repetition duration_. 

• *Choose a range of repetitions between three and 15 *(e.g., 3-5, 6-8, 8-10, etc.). _There is very little evidence to suggest that a specific range of repetitions (e.g., 3-5 versus 8-10) or time-under-load (e.g., 30s versus 90s) significantly impacts the increase in muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, or endurance. _

• *Perform one set of each exercise*. _The preponderance of resistance-training studies shows no difference in the gains in muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, or endurance as a result of performing a greater number of sets. _

• *After performing a combination of concentric and eccentric muscle actions, terminate each exercise at the point where the concentric phase of the exercise is becoming difficult, if not impossible, while maintaining good form*. _There is very little evidence to suggest that going beyond this level of intensity (e.g., supramaximal or accentuated eccentric muscle actions) will further enhance muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, or endurance. _

• *Allow enough time between exercises to perform the next exercise in proper form*. _There is very little evidence to suggest that different rest periods between sets or exercises will significantly affect the gains in muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, or endurance. _

• *Depending on individual recovery and response, choose a frequency of 2-3 times/week to stimulate each targeted muscle group. One session a week has been shown to be just as effective as 2-3 times/week for some muscle groups*. _There is very little evidence to suggest that training a muscle more than 2-3 times/week or that split routines will produce greater gains in muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, or endurance._

http://www.goldmedalsquared.com/documents/blog/Winett_StrengthTrainingMyths_2002.pdf

http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/OttoV2.pdf

Then there's the critics:

"For decades, debate has persisted regarding the amount of work (volume or number of sets) a person must perform in the weight room to elicit maximal strength gains. A very small, but vocal group has promoted their opinion that single-set training programs will elicit maximal, or near maximal, strength gains and additional sets of training are of no value. The vast majority of exercise professionals and leaders in our field, however, have founded their prescription of training volume on two fundamental exercise principles: the dose-response and progression. These principles, the experience of our most knowledgeable professionals, and the body of research examining this issue overwhelmingly support the need for multiple-set training programs to achieve maximal strength gains."

http://www.nsca-lift.org/HotTopic/download/Single vs Multiple Sets.pdf


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Kon said:


> What do you guys think of these guidelines?
> 
> The preponderance of research strongly suggests that gains in muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, and endurance are the result of the following simple guidelines:
> 
> ...


1)there is a lot of research to suggest free weights is better than machines

2)i dont even understand this question

3)there is a lot of evidence to suggest that low reps are good for power and strengh, 6-12 or 8-12 reps is good for hyperthrophy and high reps is good for endurance

4)beginners only need to do one ''working'' set of each exercise (they'll need to do other warm up sets in addition to the working set though). however more advanced lifters will need to do more than one working set for each exercise. the number of sets theyll need depends on the muscle group they are working. for example small muscle groups like triceps may take just 3 working sets were as big muscle groups like the back could take 6 working sets

5)you should train to failure. if your goal is 12 reps then the weight you use should be heavy enough that a 13th rep is impossible

6)obviously it is wise to rest for longer enough so that you can do your next set with propper form. shortening rest periods can however play a small role in muscle gains. to continously gain muscle a person needs adhere to the rule of ''progressive overload''. progressive overload basically means that 1)you train to failure and 2) you progress each session. the best way to progress each session is to increase the weight however if this is not possible then an increase in reps or a decrease in rest periods betwen sets can achieve the desired progression from the last workout

7)you need to tear the muscle in the gym by lifting weights. and then you need to let that muscle rest so that it can repair and grow. a beginner needs only a little stimulation to achieve the desired muscular response therefore a beginner will recover faster. this means that a begginner could train the same muscle group twice per week
a more advanced trainer however would need more volume to achive the desired muscular resonse therefore they will need longer recovery time. a more advanced lifter is best training a muscle group only once per week.
split routines are obviously very helpful. an advanced lifter needs a lot of volume/sets etc... and needs to be in and out of the gym in under an hour. splitting the body into parts is nessecary in order to fit the correct volume into the allotted workout time 
a beginner only needs a little volume therefore they can do a full body workout or split the body into upper body and lower body


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

paulyD said:


> 1)there is a lot of research to suggest free weights is better than machines


Can provide me with one such study (full or abstract) with respect to better size gains with free weights?


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

couldn't resist checking up on my favorite forum to post just a few things.

wanted to apologize to RR for cursing at you. i was just pissed because you guys keep questioning my honesty. you didn't deserve that, you've been courteous almost the entire thread.

also, wanted to apologize pauly for the repeated jabs at your weight. i realize this is an SA forum in the end, and all of us have self-esteem issues we're trying to get over. guess i just got caught up in the bashing. that was a **** thing for me to have done and you probably didn't feel great reading those things, my bad bro.

i'm a fundamentally honest person. everything i've posted about myself is true, those pics are me, that vid is of me, etc. you guys can call me fat, matchstick legs, etc. that doesn't really phase me, but calling into question my honesty is one thing that gets me steamed, so i think that's why i started with the pejoratives.

@RR: may seem convenient that i'm disappearing or w/e, but it's finals week man, i study at a really tough university, not gonna be doing steroids or lifting trying to put on muscle to impress you guys, just gonna be studying trying to do well in my classes so i won't be online much. that's it.

anyways, my apologies were sincere. i don't feel good about having written what i've written. i'm out.


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## Michael A (May 8, 2011)

Lol. 
To whoever started this thread, I'll help you out.
1. What are your goals? 
2. What is your financial situation like? 
3. What is your schedule like?


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## jimbo00 (Nov 28, 2010)

anyone got any tips for working shoulders ?
im doing military barbell & dumbell press, seated/standing side and front raises.. and a few other things...etc..etc.. mixing it up each week. 

with the exception of military press, not making any progress (i.e cant go heavier next week with proper form..) shoulder muscles are always pretty sore straight after though...


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Kon said:


> Can provide me with one such study (full or abstract) with respect to better size gains with free weights?


not really no im afraid. i dont have access to any particular studys but im sure if you google it you will find many.

i just know a lot of studies have been done to prove that free weights involves using a lot of different muscles that a machine cannot access .


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

jimbo00 said:


> anyone got any tips for working shoulders ?
> im doing military barbell & dumbell press, seated/standing side and front raises.. and a few other things...etc..etc.. mixing it up each week.
> 
> with the exception of military press, not making any progress (i.e cant go heavier next week with proper form..) shoulder muscles are always pretty sore straight after though...


the only 2 exercises you will ever need for shoulders is :

1)military press (either dumbell or barbell)
2)lateral raises

and you only need 3 sets. 2 sets on milatry press for 5-7 reps and 1 set of lateral raises for 10-12 reps

the rest of the muscles in the shoulder will get hit when you work chest and back therefore the only exercises you need to worry about for the shoulders is the 2 i mentioned


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

Auron said:


> to OP: Start a new thread


Good point.

And make sure any off-topic posts don't bother your thread again. Maybe ask a mod to help u out. That and no personal disputes, anyway I tried to give a few advices of topic, but I fell into the trap of responding to being provoked.

Ppl even started using this as a general bodybuilding thread and asked different questions. I though the post topic was how we should help out cwq, but I may be wrong.


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## jimbo00 (Nov 28, 2010)

I best read my internet law book again..............



RenegadeReloaded said:


> Ppl even started using this as a general bodybuilding thread and asked different questions. I though the post topic was how we should help out cwq, but I may be wrong.


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

paulyD said:


> the only 2 exercises you will ever need for shoulders is :
> 
> 1)military press (either dumbell or barbell)
> 2)lateral raises
> ...


That's pretty weird. I totally agree with the exercises but I think 3 sets doing 2 barbell press and one lateral is way too few. Why should there be too few?

For shoulders this is what I do:

(2 priming sets) 3 x 6-8 barbell press
3 x 10 upright rows
3 x 15 dumbbell raises

Do all shoulders back to back.

I bench the same day since it's a push muscle, I do a three way split, push-legs-pull. I'm simply seeking your opinion why you think it's not the most efficient means?

For sore shoulders, it's important to loosen them up afterwards. Circle your arms like you are throwing a baseball. Go as fast as you can without contouring your body. Circle both front and back for each arm.

The other one is to go out in a lunge. Clasp your hands behind you. First stretch out your chest, then go down and move you head towards your forward lunging foot. Keep moving your arms up and forward and move them around for a bit as you keep pushing forward. Important to keep your back straight on this one and keep your hips squared at the same time. This will open your shoulders.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> That's pretty weird. I totally agree with the exercises but I think 3 sets doing 2 barbell press and one lateral is way too few. Why should there be too few?
> 
> For shoulders this is what I do:
> 
> ...


i do a push/pull/legs split also. monday - legs and abbs, wednesday - chest, shoulders and triceps, friday - back and biceps

on my _push _day i start off with a warm up of 5 sets on bench press. that warms up not only the chest but also the shoulders and triceps. after that the shoulders are warmed up therefore the only sets i need to do for shoulders are _working sets_ i.e working the shoulders to failure.

the shoulders are such a small muscle group that it doesnt take a lot of volume, after the warm up, to stimulate them. 3 sets consisting of 2 sets military press and 1 set of lateral raises is adequate to stimulate the shoulder muscles .

the fact is there's just no need to do anymore. if 3 sets gets the job done then whats the point in doing more ?


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

paulyD said:


> i do a push/pull/legs split also. monday - legs and abbs, wednesday - chest, shoulders and triceps, friday - back and biceps
> 
> on my _push _day i start off with a warm up of 5 sets on bench press. that warms up not only the chest but also the shoulders and triceps. after that the shoulders are warmed up therefore the only sets i need to do for shoulders are _working sets_ i.e working the shoulders to failure.
> 
> ...


In terms of the split, it's pretty identical, I'm trying Jim Stoppani's split but modified it slightly. I simply don't get why you are cutting out work. How I set-up mine is to start with a compound and go heavy for each muscle group. Then go lighter on isolations and I change isolations every so often. So like yours, I start with wide-grip bench press. Each compounds, I would prime the movement with 2 light sets, like just bar, then 20% RM then 50% RM. The compounds I chose are wide-grip bench for chest. Barbell press for shoulders and close-trip bench for triceps. I do the compounds first since they moving the heaviest weight and need the most energy for that. Then do the isolations back-to-back supersetting each.

The shoulders are a pretty small but important muscle group. If not but to develop better range of motion and endurance. So I'm trying to figure out the mechanics behind the less is more theory you have. In some cases it is, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean in this case.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> In terms of the split, it's pretty identical, I'm trying Jim Stoppani's split but modified it slightly. I simply don't get why you are cutting out work. How I set-up mine is to start with a compound and go heavy for each muscle group. Then go lighter on isolations and I change isolations every so often. So like yours, I start with wide-grip bench press. Each compounds, I would prime the movement with 2 light sets, like just bar, then 20% RM then 50% RM. The compounds I chose are wide-grip bench for chest. Barbell press for shoulders and close-trip bench for triceps. I do the compounds first since they moving the heaviest weight and need the most energy for that. Then do the isolations back-to-back supersetting each.
> 
> The shoulders are a pretty small but important muscle group. If not but to develop better range of motion and endurance. So I'm trying to figure out the mechanics behind the less is more theory you have. In some cases it is, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean in this case.


all i can say really is that you only have to do enough to get the job done. your goal is to tear the muscle in the gym and then let it rest and recover. it doesnt take much to tear the shoulder, they are tiny. 3 sets to failure is enough to tear them. after that you just rest and let them grow. if you tear them after 3 sets to failure what's the point in doing another set when the job is already done

i only do 3 sets on most muscle groups. i do more sets on the big muscle groups though cos they require more volume to get the required stimulated int he gym

*on push days i'll do 5 warm up sets on bench press to warm up the chest , shoulders and triceps . after that EVERY single one of my sets is to failure :

bench press - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
incline bench press - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
dips - 2 sets of 5-7 reps

military press - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
lateral raises - 1 set of 10-12 reps

tricep pushdowns - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
lying dumbell extension - 1 set of 10-12 reps

*on back days i'll use 5 sets of deadlift to warm up the back and biceps followed by the following failure sets :

deadlift - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
bent over barbell row - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
pullups - 2 sets of 5-7 reps

barbell curls - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
incline seated curls - 1 set of 10-12 reps

shruggs - 2 sets of 10-12 reps 
wrist curls - 1 set of 10-12 reps

*on legs days i'll use squats to warm up all of the leg muscle and my core followed by the follwing failure sets :

squats - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
leg press - 1 set of 10-12 reps

stiff leg deadlift - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
lying leg curls - 1 set of 10-12 reps

standing calf raises - 2 sets of 5-7 reps 
seated calf raises - 1 set of 10-12 reps

crunches - 2 set of 10-12 reps 
leg raises - 1 set of 10-12 reps

obviously you can do a few more sets if you want but the general gudeline is that to stimulate large muscle groups you only need about 6-9 sets , and for smaller muscle groups 3-5 sets. (and when i say 6-9 sets or 3-5 sets i mean in total per workout not per exercises. e.g 6-9 sets for the chest spread out over 3 different exercises )

and dont forget im not including the warm up sets in those numbers


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

It's pretty interesting because your program is almost identical to mine, legs I do the same thing. 

Chest, other than bench, I do dumbbell presses and flies for chest and for triceps I do the closed bench press, overhead tricep extensions and dips. I'm interested to see why you incorporate dips with chest. 

For back, I do bent-over, lat-pulldown and seated cable row. Biceps, I do regular curls, then include dumbbell, then preacher. I add a set of wrist curls and shrugs. Although you made me realize I been neglecting pull-ups. 

Volume wise, I do 6-8 with compounds, then 8-10 followed by a 12-15 with each muscle group, 3 sets of each with 2 warm-ups to prime each compound movement. It's pretty interesting how your program is so similar but tweaked at an initial lower rep range and less volume.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Brightpaperwarewolf said:


> It's pretty interesting because your program is almost identical to mine, legs I do the same thing.
> 
> Chest, other than bench, I do dumbbell presses and flies for chest and for triceps I do the closed bench press, overhead tricep extensions and dips. I'm interested to see why you incorporate dips with chest.
> 
> ...


the type of dips i use are a chest exercise. i dont mean the dips were you use a bench (that's a tricep exercise). i mean the ones were you use a machine and you dip in sort of a standing position i.e your torso is upright 
i prefere to use that exercise because 1) i find it more effective than flys and 2)i hate flys. they are too awkwark and i always end up with poor form when performing flys

you may be neglecting pullups but lat pulldowns do pretty much the same things. pullups is obviously the better choice of the 2 but lat pulldown is a good alternative

as for reps yer we are pretty similar. i do a lot of 5-7 on compounds which isnt far of your 6-8. and then i do a few isolations at 10-12 which again is similar to your 8-10's. i'd never go beyond 12 reps though and do for instance 15 reps. 12 is the limit for me although i may consider more than 12 for only calves and abbs but nothing else

i think its a great rouitne the push/pull/legs split and you can tweak it here there like me and you have seemed to have done . it gets great results


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

jimbo00 said:


> I best read my internet law book again..............


Yeah, I checkked too and there isn't any. 

What method of increasing intensity do u guys use ? (hope my dic. translated correctly)

At the moment I'm only using drop sets. How about u ?


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

paulyD said:


> the type of dips i use are a chest exercise. i dont mean the dips were you use a bench (that's a tricep exercise). i mean the ones were you use a machine and you dip in sort of a standing position i.e your torso is upright
> i prefere to use that exercise because 1) i find it more effective than flys and 2)i hate flys. they are too awkwark and i always end up with poor form when performing flys
> 
> you may be neglecting pullups but lat pulldowns do pretty much the same things. pullups is obviously the better choice of the 2 but lat pulldown is a good alternative
> ...


Yeah, those are the ones that I do, minus using the machine, I just use the bars. I always thought it was more reliant on the triceps if you squeeze your arms in and remain straight. Sounds like I been gearing too much towards the chest. Flies are pretty intense though.

It's definitely interesting to see someone else doing the same program, but how they do it differently.


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

jimbo00 said:


> anyone got any tips for working shoulders ?
> im doing military barbell & dumbell press, seated/standing side and front raises.. and a few other things...etc..etc.. mixing it up each week.
> 
> with the exception of military press, not making any progress (i.e cant go heavier next week with proper form..) shoulder muscles are always pretty sore straight after though...


i'd recommend just focusing on the military press and ditching the other exercises. keep things simple. you can put on size just with one exercise. just focus on performing it with lots of intensity and volume, and your shoulders will blow up.

one more thing, technique is very important in the military press, so watch these vids if you feel your technique is suspect.
















a beautiful example of technique:






if you have time, check out his other vids. he is so technically perfect in all of his lifts that it's really something else.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

candrnow said:


> i'd recommend just focusing on the military press and ditching the other exercises. keep things simple. you can put on size just with one exercise. just focus on performing it with lots of intensity and volume, and your shoulders will blow up.
> 
> one more thing, technique is very important in the military press, so watch these vids if you feel your technique is suspect.
> 
> ...


that mark riptoe's in really poor shape. why would anyone take advice from him ?


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## candrnow (Jun 15, 2010)

paulyD said:


> that mark riptoe's in really poor shape. why would anyone take advice from him ?


i get it. i already apologized for the jabs at your weight, what more do you want? you going to hold a grudge forever?


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## Brightpaperwarewolf (Oct 16, 2008)

paulyD said:


> that mark riptoe's in really poor shape. why would anyone take advice from him ?


Rippetoe is a good program. It's a little bottom heavy but they aren't as many programs that are as simple and effective.


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## paulyD (Feb 16, 2011)

Pauly d wins!!!!


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## Kon (Oct 21, 2010)

Assuming diet/nutrition is optimal, the difference between doing some strength/physique training versus no strength/physique training at all is immense. The difference between one training program versus another training program is minor in my opinion. The small differences in gains tend to be due to over-training or under-training either with respect to volume/frequency/intensity.

I've yet to see a person make a major change in their physique (once they reach full maturity without drugs) by changing their routines. I gained ~10 lbs over 10 years in my 30s just by cutting down the volume of training but the gain wasn't earth-shattering.


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## RenegadeReloaded (Mar 12, 2011)

Kon said:


> Assuming diet/nutrition is optimal, the difference between doing some strength/physique training versus no strength/physique training at all is immense. The difference between one training program versus another training program is minor in my opinion.


yeap, nutrition comes first, its most important, then u can chose whatever sport, just practice it regularly.

I have a friend who lost like 30 kg in half year by watching what he ate. He was overweight. I spoke to him in the past about some aspects of nutrition and avoiding processed foods and rapid carbs, and after some months he was unrecognizable, thin and normal height/weight ratio.

He did a lot of reading by himself too, but in terms of sport, he told me he just did push-ups and abdomens like 20 mins a day.

This is an example of losing weight or just toning your muscles, being in shape. When it comes to putting on muscles, gym is the only way.


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