# Sexual double-standards go both ways



## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

I've heard and read a bunch of women complain about the double standard that sexually promiscuous women are labelled ****s while sexually promiscuous men are seen as "studs" and such.

HOWEVER, this line of thinking doesn't really make women look worse. Why?

Simple:

A virgin woman is seen as pure, respectable, and looking for the right one.

A virgin man is a loser. He's considered pathetic and undesirable.

See? Works both ways. Sexual promiscuity in women is on par with virginity in men.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

TPower said:


> I've heard and read a bunch of women complain about the double standard that sexually promiscuous women are labelled ****s while sexually promiscuous men are seen as "studs" and such.
> 
> HOWEVER, this line of thinking doesn't really make women look worse. Why?
> 
> ...


If you are an older female virgin, society will still look at you and think "what the hell is wrong with you?" Most religious women who save it until marriage get married at prime child-rearing years. In conservative christian circles, if you can't find a good man to settle down with by a certain age, you are an "old maid" or "spinster".

If I was chatting up a cute girl in her late teens/early twenties, let alone advanced age, and found out she was a virgin, I would start wondering if she was a prude, religious (that would never fly with me) or sexually molested/abused/raped (well rape victims can't be virgins technically. But you know what I mean). Unless she lives a hermit lifestyle where she didn't go to school or otherwise put herself in situations where age-appropriate males would interact with her.


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## John The Great (Jul 23, 2012)

I personally think these so called 'studs' aren't anything but pathetic, especially if they always talk about it.


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## offbyone (May 5, 2010)

Really? How is this not baiting.


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## gaz (Jun 27, 2008)

Studs are simply man-*****s o'r man-****s. I really don't see anything heroic about sticking weiners in anything that breathes.

I've never understood why ''stud'' is seen as a positive label.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Being a "stud" isn't always a positive thing. I'm trying to get with this cute girl with SA (for real. I'm not looking for casual sex with her. I want a relationship. Unless she doesn't want a relationship and wants something more casual but I strongly doubt it. You never know with these shy girls sometimes though...). But I'm afraid that mutual acquaintances might warn her to watch out for me because I'm a "bad boy" (I probably should have thought twice about bragging about my sexual exploits with guys I don't know too well. Especially if they have cute female relatives or friends. And I'm not an alpha male by any stretch of the imagination. But these guys are virgins. Many of them never even kissed a girl. They have some resentment towards me too because of that. This one guy (handsome dude but a goody two shoes, a couple/few years younger and more socially inexperienced than me) I met last week was like "I'm saving it for the one, you're just an animal with lots of STDs" or whatever. Meanwhile I can count on less than two hands the number of women I've been with sexually (basically oral sex on up). And one hand the number of women I've had sexual intercourse with. Not exactly a sexually prolific male) I never thought that I could actually risk having my reputation tarnished for being a "man *****"/"philanderer" or whatever. But yeah. lol.


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## Peter Attis (Aug 31, 2009)

gaz said:


> Studs are simply man-*****s o'r man-****s. I really don't see anything heroic about sticking weiners in anything that breathes.
> 
> I've never understood why ''stud'' is seen as a positive label.


You sound jelly.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

Double standards are dumb. It's no ones business what people do with their bodies...it's not hurting you why do people care I dunno...our ****ed up society.


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## Jollygoggles (Mar 3, 2011)

A lock that can be opened by many keys is a bad lock.

But a key that can open many locks is a master key.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

And some virgin girls can be seen as "freaks" tooo. Like if you are a virgin late in life some men don't like that.

And "****" is just a degrading word for women that enjoy their sexuality. We just can't enjoy anything can we..


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## Jollygoggles (Mar 3, 2011)

I think is can be a fairly accurate representation of social skills if the person isn't asexual.


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## Jollygoggles (Mar 3, 2011)

meganmila said:


> And "****" is just a degrading word for women that enjoy their sexuality. *We just can't enjoy anything can we..*


Oh give over. 
Only the out of touch men think that.


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## OutOfControlPanel (Jul 14, 2012)

meganmila said:


> And some virgin girls can be seen as "freaks" tooo. Like if you are a virgin late in life some men don't like that.
> 
> *And "****" is just a degrading word for women that enjoy their sexuality. We just can't enjoy anything can we..*


Clearly women in general enjoy their sexuality; otherwise, they wouldn't be getting married and having babies. They're not called ****s just because they enjoy their sexuality.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

Ok smarty what is it called then....cause usually when people call women ****s it's because she is sleeping around and having casual sex.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

Jollygoggles said:


> Oh give over.
> Only the out of touch men think that.


Well some men still call it that.


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## Jollygoggles (Mar 3, 2011)

meganmila said:


> Well some men still call it that.


And they're all not enjoying getting laid either. Their genetic code is going T-Rex, as it were. 
Or they marry one of their ideas of a 'good woman' and scratch their heads at why the old girl's a bore in the bedroom. Karma.


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## OutOfControlPanel (Jul 14, 2012)

meganmila said:


> Ok smarty what is it called then....cause usually when people call women ****s it's because she is sleeping around and having casual sex.


You equate "enjoying one's sexuality" with "sleeping around/having casual sex"?

I think most people make a distinction between these two, which is why the word "****" is reserved for a certain subset of women, not for women who like sex.

If we used the word "****" to refer to women who enjoyed sex, then we'd be calling almost every woman a **** (which clearly isn't the case).


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

Yea but there are also women that enjoy sex and enjoy sleeping around/casual sex...and those are the ones that are called ****s.

If women want to do casual sex and like it please no one call them ****s...that's the problem.


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## pete24 (Oct 13, 2010)

phoenixwright said:


> If I was chatting up a cute girl in her late teens/early twenties, let alone advanced age, and found out she was a virgin, I would start wondering if she was a prude, religious (that would never fly with me) or sexually molested/abused/raped (well rape victims can't be virgins technically. But you know what I mean). Unless she lives a hermit lifestyle where she didn't go to school or otherwise put herself in situations where age-appropriate males would interact with her.


How would you find out though? She may feel ashamed or embarrassed.

My x was a virgin (she was something like 23). She didnt tell me til later on. We did it and there were a few signs that she was a virgin (bit too graphic maybe to say here) but I put it down to other things. When she told me, she said she had always felt nervous about losing her virginity, and felt embarrassed so didnt say. She had been in relationships before but not done anything, and wanted to lose it with someone she really loved (me at the time).

You know for sure though, when someone loses their virginity for whatever reason, they will become sexually active, gain confidence and do it loads with their partner or wont be nervous to do it with others if the relationship broke up


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## Jollygoggles (Mar 3, 2011)

meganmila said:


> If women want to do casual sex and like it please no one call them ****s...that's the problem.


I think the stigma is rooted in male jealousy and female insecurity (women call women ****s too) because in comparison to men it is _much_ easier for a woman to get laid.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

Jollygoggles said:


> I think the stigma is rooted in male jealousy and female insecurity (women call women ****s too) because in comparison to men it is _much_ easier for a woman to get laid.


Actually women can be jealous and call other women that...yes women are the problem too. Yes, we can also be picky and not sleep with just about anyone that offers. Men can be picky too.


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## Schizoidas (May 11, 2012)

meganmila said:


> Double standards are dumb. It's no ones business what people do with their bodies...it's not hurting you why do people care I dunno...our ****ed up society.


Thats not true. Promiscuous people have a higher chance of transferring all kinds, and that does hurt people.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

That's why you use protection as best you can. yes still possible but it lowers the risk.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Not this thread again!









For your information, this is a false premise. Plenty of guys lose their virginity into their 20's and 30's.

If you make a big deal out of it, sure, she will care. However, if you just say "it's been a while, go slow", she won't give a crap.

Either way, it's your choice. If you are meeting someone who rejects you for being a virgin male, perhaps you are telling her too soon? Date her first.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> Not this thread again!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Plenty?

Who are you kidding?

Look at the numbers:

_The results come from a survey that was officially released on Friday. In the report, the __Center for Disease Control and Prevention stated, "Approximately 96 percent of adults age 20-59 years have had sex, with the age group 20-29 having the lowest percent (91 percent),"_

http://voices.yahoo.com/four-percent-adults-virgins-410642.html?cat=12

1 man out of 33 is still a virgin at age 30.

http://www.11points.com/Personal/11_Wild_Statistics_About_Turning_30


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

meganmila said:


> Yea but there are also women that enjoy sex and enjoy sleeping around/casual sex...and those are the ones that are called ****s.
> 
> If women want to do casual sex and like it please no one call them ****s...that's the problem.


Yeah it's not like it's just a minority of men who are "out of touch" who are ****-shaming girls. It's most men. If I was in a long-term relationship with a girl who had a high number or if we participated in swinging or something like that, most guys would insult my manhood for being "with a girl like that". "Your girl is the town ferry/bicycle." "Enjoy the sloppy seconds" "Your girl's vagina is loose" "How does my **** taste bro?" "You're a cuckold." Stuff like that. I have done enough social research on OKCupid pretending to be a sexually promiscuous hot woman to know that guys just want to hit it with a girl like that. Only a rare few want to wife that up.

That's why if you want to engage in casual sex, keep it on the down 'lo. Only let trusted girlfriends know what you do. Many of them can't be trusted. They get jealous and catty and look to sabotage your reputation (you should especially be careful if you're still in school. But even after graduation, there are social circles, the workplace, family, etc. All potential areas where you can have your reputation ruined). As for guys, I don't think you'd want a guy who would judge you for having a high number anyway. Guys can gossip too (yep) and ruin your reputation as well though. Important to be aware of that. If you watch Jersey Shore, a guy that Deena was involved with, let the guys at the barber shop know that she liked performing analingus on him. She vehemontly denied that this was true. But honestly, I bet it was and she feels embarrassed that people know that she enjoys a sexual act that is very taboo.

I've watched porn regularly since I was 14 years old. And I desire girls who are like the girls in porn. That do the things the girls in porn do. And when I was say 17 (maybe earlier than that), I got turned on by porn featuring cute, girl-next-door types. I like the idea of a sweet, loving girlfriend with a naughty side. My ex-girlfriend was very vanilla. She did not like oral sex. Anal sex was absolutely off the table. I want a relationship. But I want the stuff I see in porn too.

Since at least five years ago, I started watching "hotwife porn" and got turned on by it. It`s a fantasy of mine, when in a relationship, to share my girlfriend with another guy (MFM threesome) or watch her with other guys (especially multiple guys). Plus it is a turn on being with a woman that has been with plenty of guys somehow. It's "dirty" and therefore somehow exciting. And I want a girlfriend that does the "dirty" things that girls do in porn (nothing too extreme).

My attitudes towards female sexuality are different. I'm not quite sure why exactly. It could just be some sort of rebellion towards my Catholic upbringing. My mom is the stereotypical devout conservative Catholic. My older sister is also very much influenced by her Catholic upbringing too (I would consider her a "prude"). Though on a logical level, I see it as hypocritical to judge a girl for having casual sex when I want the same thing. And judging girls who have casual sex is like shooting themselves in the foot. Biting the hand that feeds. Judging girls who are giving you what you want.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

You gotta realize that most porn is fantasy not reality. Most woman don't immediately orgasm with one thrust of a penis. They do those outrageous things cause they are getting PAID. Their moans are fake..their bodies can be fake. Men need to realize that porn is for fantasies. I was talking about mainstream porn. Amateur with real couples is better. You can't expect any girl you meet to be like a porn star..that's a problem. She doesn't have to consent to what you want like anal sex and all that...for me that's a no no. I hope men that are looking porn do not think that all women are like that. And expect them to be like that.

I guess that is what happens when you look at porn from a very young age.


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## Jollygoggles (Mar 3, 2011)

So glad my intro to porn growing up was nothing more than a discarded magazine stumbled upon while playing in the forest with friends.

I feel sorry for the kids growing up now with the internet as a guideline.

My cousin talked to me about her 13 year old son. Said she stumbled upon his internet history and it made her 'feel sick'. Poor ******* doesn't know the damage he's doing to himself.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I expect to be somewhat attracted to a girl I want to date, though.

But that is not saying much, because I find a wide variety of women attractive. I have met women who are slightly older than me, who are drop dead gorgeous, and sadly have boyfriends and husbands. If I could meet a girl who was single, who actually wanted to be with me...then I would be set.

Oh, and all men are visual. I don't expect most of the things I see in porn. Oral sex, maybe, but the whole ejaculate on face thing...well, that would be disrespectful, unless she was into it. And there are so many outrageous things that I've seen, that I would not want to subject someone I care about to it. 

The best porn is your imagination, anyways.


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## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

WintersTale said:


> If you are meeting someone who rejects you for being a virgin male, perhaps you are telling her too soon? Date her first.


This seems like very wise advice.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

meganmila said:


> You gotta realize that most porn is fantasy not reality. Most woman don't immediately orgasm with one thrust of a penis. They do those outrageous things cause they are getting PAID. Their moans are fake..their bodies can be fake. Men need to realize that porn is for fantasies. I was talking about mainstream porn. Amateur with real couples is better. You can't expect any girl you meet to be like a porn star..that's a problem. She doesn't have to consent to what you want like anal sex and all that...for me that's a no no. I hope men that are looking porn do not think that all women are like that. And expect them to be like that.
> 
> I guess that is what happens when you look at porn from a very young age.


I don't see the things I want as all that extreme (there's more extreme stuff out there in porn. My tastes are rather vanilla in comparison). But yes the majority (not quite sure how big this majority is) of women see anal sex as a no-no (I've talked to girls who admitted to enjoying it. But they're definitely in the minority.) As for oral, I think most girls only do it because their boyfriend likes it. I don't think the majority actually enjoy it. I enjoy both giving and receiving. With my ex, I tried it on her in hopes that she would enjoy returning the favour. But I could tell she was not into returning the favour at all (she certainly enjoyed receiving. But I think she felt guilty about it because she didn't want to feel obligated to return the favour.) And then there are the other oral sex-related things that girls do in porn that even more girls won't do or don't like doing.

Yeah watching porn from a young age isn't really healthy. I readily admit that. It desensitizes you. Especially in combination with excessive masturbation. I'm trying to quit both. It's hard (no pun intended). Both have hindered my sex life (which I talked about in another thread). And also my confidence around women.

Also porn and the American media in general makes us think that all these girls are ****-crazy and want all of this hedonistic sex. No, no, NO! The vast majority of girls want sex within the context of a long-term relationship. They don't care all that much about being jackhammer ****** by large penises. Girls who have hedonistic sex are branded with a scarlet letter. I have been told before by a woman that I am living in the 1930s by believing that women are sexually conservative. But I don't think so. It's not like the 1930s anymore. It's more liberal now. But the media exaggerates the extent of female sexual revolution. Let alone porn.

Plus it has been my experience that women who tend to enjoy casual sex are *****es (my aunt, her daughter, the girl I went on a date with a week ago, a few of my sister's co-workers, many of the female profiles I have read on hook-up sites, someone on SAS who I won't name, etc). Not all. I'm just saying this is generally true. There's a reason why the "tart with a heart" (a sexually promiscuous woman who is seen as kind and good-natured) archetype in fiction is an actual "thing".


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

I like giving and I also like receiving. Giving can be enjoyable...You mean like facials? Deep throat? Swallow? Everybody has different tastes. Why don't you just hook up with a porn star if you want all of that. 

And NO...there are also lot of women that ENJOY and LIKE having casual sex without FEELINGS. ( Yes I have done that before and I liked it) Not all women need to have feelings for sex. This is just that stereotype that all woman want deep relationships and then married and kids...that's not true at all. I don't give a **** about any of those things. I think you have just been around people that influenced you're way of thinking. Cause you have experience being around girls that think that so you are assuming that the majority is like that..I dunno maybe I'm the minority.

Wow and now you are saying women that enjoy causal sex are a b*ch . Just cause you have had bad experiences doesn't mean that the majority are like that. Then I must be a minority.


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## Jollygoggles (Mar 3, 2011)

Defends right to get laid.
Sounds most like needs laid.

:b


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## XxArmyofOnexX (Aug 13, 2007)

Mods circling like vultures in 3...

Also: this thread is very entertaining opcorn


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## Jollygoggles (Mar 3, 2011)

XxArmyofOnexX said:


> Come on Jolly, what did I tell you about pouring gasoline on a fire? :teeth


I trusted nobody would take that seriously.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

meganmila said:


> I like giving and I also like receiving. Giving can be enjoyable...You mean like facials? Deep throat? Swallow? Everybody has different tastes. Why don't you just hook up with a porn star if you want all of that.


Yeah I was talking along those lines yes. lol.



> And NO...there are also lot of women that ENJOY and LIKE having casual sex without FEELINGS. ( Yes I have done that before and I liked it) Not all women need to have feelings for sex. This is just that stereotype that all woman want deep relationships and then married and kids...that's not true at all. I don't give a **** about any of those things. I think you have just been around people that influenced you're way of thinking. Cause you have experience being around girls that think that so you are assuming that the majority is like that..I dunno maybe I'm the minority.


Depends on your definition of a lot. I'm quite positive there is a high male:female openness to casual sex ratio. I saw in a video (Brainwash: Sex on youtube) that Norwegian men report that on average they would like to have 25 sexual partners in their lifetime while for Norwegian women, it's 7. Norway is even further ahead in terms of female liberation than we are.



> Wow and now you are saying women that enjoy causal sex are a b*ch . Just cause you have had bad experiences doesn't mean that the majority are like that. Then I must be a minority.


I find that this is _generally_ true. But I don't judge a girl immediately if I know she enjoys casual sex. It's not like I don't seek it. I have two girls on my radar right now. One I want a long-term relationship with (met her in-person). One I only want for a fling (only talked with online and texted thus far). I have a really good feeling about the girl I'm looking for a fling with. But she says that her preference is to have sex within the context of a relationship. Ideally I'm hoping we had fun on our bar date, go back to her place, have sex and do that kind of thing on the regular without emotional involvement or commitment until I find myself a girlfriend. This girl seems nice. And not mean-spirited like the last one.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

Maybe women don't do it as much cause they are afraid of pregnancy and stds more. More so on the pregnancy issue. 

If that girl said she prefers having sex within context of a relationship...does that mean ya'll have to be in a relationship? Cause if you are just looking for a fling I don't think it's gonna work with that girl.


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## meeps (Dec 5, 2011)

meganmila said:


> If that girl said she prefers having sex within context of a relationship...does that mean ya'll have to be in a relationship? Cause if you are just looking for a fling I don't it's gonna work with that girl.


yep. I don't think a girl who really wants a fling would tell you that.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

meganmila said:


> Maybe women don't do it as much cause they are afraid of pregnancy and stds more. More so on the pregnancy issue.


Condoms and birth control can prevent pregnancy with a low failure rate. Plus guys don't want to deal with a potential pregnancy either right?

I agree with you on the STD tip though actually. Condoms, condoms, condoms. Can't stress how important it is to use them. BUT condoms are not terribly effective at preventing the spread of certain STDs like HPV and HSV2 (herpes). The danger posed by herpes is over-rated. It's painful apparently. But if you take meds for it, you can prevent outbreaks and the spreading of the virus. Plenty of people have girlfirends/boyfriends with HSV2 (especially girlfriends as women are more likely to get herpes than men because it's much easier for a man to infect a woman than a woman to infect a man) and they have happy, well-adjusted relationships and sex lives. There is way too much herpes stigma out there. Oh and almost no one uses condoms for oral sex. There's that.

Also in general its easier to spread STDS from males to females than females to males. Not just HIV/AIDS and herpes. It's also true of gonorrhea and I think others like chlaymdia, syphllis and HPV I think. Lots of women are infected with HPV. Cervical cancer is killing lots of women. Men are also more likely to be symptomless carriers of STDs.



> If that girl said she prefers having sex within context of a relationship...does that mean ya'll have to be in a relationship? Cause if you are just looking for a fling I don't it's gonna work with that girl.


Agreed. It's a case of me giving in to wishful thinking! lol. I met her off a hookup site and saw that she had both open to relationship and casual sex under "interested in" (as do I). But I had asked her the question directly because I needed to know for certain that she'd be cool with a fling. Her exact words now that I recall is "I like being in a relationship but whatever happens happens." I have a bad feeling that she's the "give sex to get love" type. Or that she's going to get attached after sex (if not, maybe after a few times). I've had a nuclear meltdown disaster experience before with a girl who wanted a relationship where I didn't. But I met that one off that same hookup site too. Why are you surprised that a guy just wants a fling with you and isn't falling for you after sex when the site is specifically for flings? lol. I would like to believe that there are swarms of girls who are DTF but that has not been my experience. Many of the girls who actually do want to have sex with you are hoping that they'll make you their boyfriend (this is why I stress using condoms. Well that and the STDs. Some of these girls are probably crazy enough to just "forget" to take a pill one day)


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## lyric (Aug 21, 2011)

In before the lock. Gender war baiting.


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## Secretly Pretentious (Dec 18, 2011)

TPower said:


> A virgin woman is seen as pure, respectable, and looking for the right one.
> 
> A virgin man is a loser. He's considered pathetic and undesirable.
> 
> See? Works both ways. Sexual promiscuity in women is on par with virginity in men.


I've noticed this too and it's a system that doesn't work. Women are shamed out of having sex and men are encouraged to have as much as possible. That just leaves a bunch of horny desperate men with a bunch of women who would otherwise be willing if they weren't so terrified for the sake of their reputations. Too bad we all can't just do what we want without worrying about social stigma. :?


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> Condoms and birth control can prevent pregnancy with a low failure rate. Plus guys don't want to deal with a potential pregnancy either right?
> 
> I agree with you on the STD tip though actually. Condoms, condoms, condoms. Can't stress how important it is to use them. BUT condoms are not terribly effective at preventing the spread of certain STDs like HPV and HSV2 (herpes). The danger posed by herpes is over-rated. It's painful apparently. But if you take meds for it, you can prevent outbreaks and the spreading of the virus. Plenty of people have girlfirends/boyfriends with HSV2 (especially girlfriends as women are more likely to get herpes than men because it's much easier for a man to infect a woman than a woman to infect a man) and they have happy, well-adjusted relationships and sex lives. There is way too much herpes stigma out there. Oh and almost no one uses condoms for oral sex. There's that.
> 
> ...


Yes I know guys worry too ( i hope) about pregnancy, it's just scarier for women cause we have to carry it and give birth to it which is why I would want an abortion.

Condoms help a lot...but yeah they are not 100% you can still get herpes and HPV like you said. I most likely have herpes on my mouth..well I mean it looks like cold sores. But I agree there is a lot of stigma against herpes. It's easy to get genital herpes if a guy goes down on a woman...that's what is so scary. I would like to try Dental Dams....I'm so paranoid about getting genital herpes from a guy. Or we could get tested. I don't think there is any test for males for HPV..so yes most men do carry it and they don't even realize. That's why I get pap smears lol.

Yeah..why would she be on that site if she wants a relationship? How about going to other sites like OKCupid or Plentyoffish for dating why a hook up site? lol Honestly I would be wary of her.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

never in my life have I thought a virgin anyone was a loser. I have known many people that think the same. In fact, for most folks, virginity being either absent or present simply does not enter their minds. This is a sweeping generalization based on mind reading that is simply not true, and I'm sick of reading it.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Just my personal experience but I've noted that the only people who ever told me that they thought virgin men were losers were men. A small number of men at that.

Do women think virgin men are losers? Who knows? Some might. Others I know for a fact like the idea of being with a virgin man. Some men think virgin men are losers. Others don't. 

Unfortunately, not everyone thinks female virgins are just normal people. Some people think female virgins are losers. Which annoys me somewhat. Since when was personal worth determined by sex life? 

If a woman sleeps around, she will get called a "****" by a big group of people. Or silently judged to be that way. If a man sleeps around, he gets called a stud. There are new words floating around to describe a man sleeping around in a more negative fashion but they lack the gravitas involved with judging a random woman who happens to enjoy casual sex as a ****.

This whole "****" thing has real power. If a woman even thinks or feels you've called her a "****" then things can get ugly between you and her pretty quickly. Imply to a man that he sleeps around a lot and he's not going to slap you. 

Women have had to put up with so much crap in life and online. Not saying men haven't. But we should, as men, be mindful of this. If someone calls my sister a "****", they will be enjoying the view as I chuck them into the middle of next week. And I'm a man who is actively against the use of violence. 


Whilst men come under fire too in society, the treatment of women (even to this day and age) is also incredibly dodgy and we need to be mindful of that.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Women call other women ****s out of jealousy.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

TPower said:


> Women call other women ****s out of jealousy.


I agree there might be some women out there calling other women ****s out of jealousy. Yet I think even when women call other women ****s it's more about judgement than jealousy.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Women are basically damned if we do, damned if we don't. A woman who has had sex is labeled a ****. Even if she's only had sex a few times, she's still open to being shammed for it. 

On the other hand, a woman who has not had sex is labeled as "undesirable". There is this prevailing notion that all a woman has to do is step outside in order to revel in non-stop male attention, and any woman who doesn't experience this phenomenon must be unattractive. So by that logic, a female virgin must be undesirable. Of course that idea is false. There was a thread awhile back where the OP asked how often women get approached. 99% of the answers were rarely or never. But even so, that false idea about what it's like to be a woman persists. 

The whole ~female virgins are pure as the new fallen snow~ thing is a pretty outdated notion. Female virgins can get teased just as male virgins can. I remember a female friend in high school being teased by another girl for being a virgin. The girl said something like, "You're a virgin, aren't you?" in a mocking tone. The definite implication was that she was undesirable and that no guy would want her, therefore she must be a virgin. 

And I agree with JoinMartin. I have never known a woman who thought a male virgin was a loser. Men seem more concerned with male virgins than women do.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Yeah female virgins get judged too. Maybe not a harshly as male virgins though. Because female virginity is very much voluntary while involuntary celibacy is often a factor with male virginity. Though not really involuntary because you can always pay for it right?

I would give a female virgin (were talking like girls in my dating range) a chance and not dismiss her as a prude or picky or whatever. But yes a red flag does come up when I know a college-aged girl on up is a virgin. This girl I'm interested in is likely 23 at least. Probably 24 or older. She has social anxiety. A friend of mine thinks she might be the saving it for marriage type but I just LOL at that. There's no way. The SA girls on here are surprisingly sexual. Just because a girl is shy doesn't mean she's a prude.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

au Lait said:


> Women are basically damned if we do, damned if we don't. A woman who has had sex is labeled a ****. Even if she's only had sex a few times, she's still open to being shammed for it.
> 
> On the other hand, a woman who has not had sex is labeled as "undesirable". There is this prevailing notion that all a woman has to do is step outside in order to revel in non-stop male attention, and any woman who doesn't experience this phenomenon must be unattractive. So by that logic, a female virgin must be undesirable. Of course that idea is false. There was a thread awhile back where the OP asked how often women get approached. 99% of the answers were rarely or never. But even so, that false idea about what it's like to be a woman persists.
> 
> ...


The porn industry disagrees with you.

There are plenty of guys into virgin porn. Many, many guys fantasise about doing a virgin.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Virgin porn? Wtf? I never heard of that. They have "barely legal" cute 18 year old girls in braces and pigtails. In the vast majority of cases, these young girls are not promoted as virgins. Though I hear "I've never done a black guy before" a lot in interracial porn. Does that count? ROFL

I haven't watched much mainstream porn in the last few years. Maybe this is a new thing.

In one of my favorite (real, non-xxx) movies, a guy does say "virgins I love em" though.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> Virgin porn? Wtf? I never heard of that. They have "barely legal" cute 18 year old girls in braces and pigtails. In the vast majority of cases, these young girls are not promoted as virgins. Though I hear "I've never done a black guy before" a lot in interracial porn. Does that count? ROFL
> 
> I haven't watched much mainstream porn in the last few years. Maybe this is a new thing.
> 
> In one of my favorite (real, non-xxx) movies, a guy does say "virgins I love em" though.


Well.. the girls are most likely not 'real' virgins. Mainly roleplay, like the patient/doctor fetish.


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## VIncymon (Apr 16, 2009)

meganmila said:


> You gotta realize that most porn is fantasy not reality. Most woman don't immediately orgasm with one thrust of a penis. They do those outrageous things cause they are getting PAID. Their moans are fake..their bodies can be fake. Men need to realize that porn is for fantasies. I was talking about mainstream porn. Amateur with real couples is better. You can't expect any girl you meet to be like a porn star..that's a problem. She doesn't have to consent to what you want like anal sex and all that...for me that's a no no. I hope men that are looking porn do not think that all women are like that. And expect them to be like that.
> 
> I guess that is what happens when you look at porn from a very young age.


I will have to fully agree with this woman. This is why now, I try to look for more subtle things, like a quick flash on a bus stop, or an animated tv show with lots of 'fanservice' i.e. lots of random arousing 'accidents' .. that would make any normal day more interesting. IE not *porn *but stories which just happen to have sexually arousing content. It's more realistic that way.

These high fantasy, supermodel porn types are bad for our psyche, guys. Keep it on the down low.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

TPower said:


> The porn industry disagrees with you.
> 
> There are plenty of guys into virgin porn. Many, many guys fantasise about doing a virgin.


Yes, the porn industry does feature stuff that is specifically marketed to guys who have fantasies about "doing a virgin".

Doesn't change the fact that, in many areas of society and amongst many groups of people, being female and a virgin can be seen as being "undesirable".
Being male and being a virgin can be seen as "undesirable" too. What's going on in the porn industry in terms of fetishes and fantasies doesn't stop the ignorant attitudes that exist within certain sections of society.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> Because female virginity is very much voluntary while involuntary celibacy is often a factor with male virginity. Though not really involuntary because you can always pay for it right?
> 
> I would give a female virgin (were talking like girls in my dating range) a chance and not dismiss her as a prude or picky or whatever. But yes a red flag does come up when I know a college-aged girl on up is a virgin. This girl I'm interested in is likely 23 at least. Probably 24 or older. She has social anxiety. A friend of mine thinks she might be the saving it for marriage type but I just LOL at that. There's no way. The SA girls on here are surprisingly sexual. Just because a girl is shy doesn't mean she's a prude.


I hesitate to ask this because I don't want to ignite a gender war. But female virginity is very much voluntary? Correct me if I'm wrong but you're the user who thinks women can get what you call "penis on demand" aren't you? So, the women on this website who happen to be virgins because fear basically crippled their ability to connect with someone or feel good enough to share their bodies and wonderful minds/personality with people are doing all of that voluntarily?

Shyness does not automatically equate being a prude. That is true. But that doesn't mean that a woman is automatically a virgin voluntarily. A shy woman is...well...a woman. And a woman has a name and is a person. And stuff happened to her that influenced her. And she influenced herself too by how she rationalised stuff in her head.

A woman can be shy and love staying up to all hours having kinky sex. Or she can be so shy that she just doesn't feel good enough to connect with anyone never mind feel good enough to be sexually desirable to a guy/girl she might like.

The same is, of course, true for a man.


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## Peter Attis (Aug 31, 2009)

We need to stop with this "women are shamed just for having sex at all." That may be true in, say, Japan, where Moe is popular, and certain eastern cultures, but where has that ever come been an issue in the rest of the western world?

As far as women thinking male virgins are losers, I don't know if that's entirely true either, but I do think a lot of them would find the idea of a male virgin off-putting or perhaps even a turn off.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Peter Attis said:


> We need to stop with this "women are shamed just for having sex at all." That may be true in, say, Japan, where Moe is popular, and certain eastern cultures, but where has that ever come been an issue in the rest of the western world?
> 
> As far as women thinking male virgins are losers, I don't know if that's entirely true either, but I do think a lot of them would find the idea of a male virgin off-putting or perhaps even a turn off.


Erm...women and their sexuality were shamed throughout the centuries in the Western world. Christianity has "original sin" within its foundation stones. That revolves around the notion of women being shamed for being seduced.

Take a woman in the western world today and let it be known to many people that she enjoys having casual sex with lots of guys. See how long it is before people develop a shaming attitude towards her and or her lifestyle.


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## Peter Attis (Aug 31, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> Erm...women and their sexuality were shamed throughout the centuries in the Western world. Christianity has "original sin" within its foundation stones. That revolves around the notion of women being shamed for being seduced.


Nobody's talking about "throughout centuries." I'm talking about *today*, in 2011.



> Take a woman in the western world today and let it be known to many people that she enjoys having casual sex with lots of guys. See how long it is before people develop a shaming attitude towards her and or her lifestyle.


Stop. This is the problem with this entire thread--people keep equating "liking sex" to "having casual sex with lots of people" and act as if people who have a problem with the latter have one with the former.


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## Xtraneous (Oct 18, 2011)

Calm down, ****s.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

^ oh shut up, you virgin.


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## Black And Mild (Apr 11, 2011)

Jollygoggles said:


> A lock that can be opened by many keys is a bad lock.
> 
> But a key that can open many locks is a master key.


:lol :lol :lol

I'm going to have to steal this for later use


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## Xtraneous (Oct 18, 2011)

leonardess said:


> ^ oh shut up, you virgin.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)




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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

> Nobody's talking about "throughout centuries." I'm talking about *today*, in 2011.


You asked, " but where has that ever come been an issue in the rest of the western world?"

You didn't define that you were talking about 2011/2012. I pointed out that it certainly has been an issue in the Western world throughout the centuries and into the present day. Even in 2012, people still chuck around the words "****" or "slag" to describe women in the western world who sleep around. Sometimes it's also used to have a go at women who simply like sex and are open about liking sex. Within the last two weeks, on a night out in a busy city centre, someone described one woman to me as: "the town bike". Now, I thought that phrase had died out or been valued on the Antiques roadshow. But it seems to be still doing the rounds.



> Stop. This is the problem with this entire thread--people keep equating "liking sex" to "having casual sex with lots of people" and act as if people who have a problem with the latter have one with the former.


It's not necessarily true that people who have a problem with the latter have one with the former. I agree with you on that. But it is certainly true that people have existed/do exist in society who have a pretty big problem with both the former and the latter.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

just want to mention - this thread started out with the topic of "being a virgin is such a stigma" to "women and sex and the word "****". people of any worth don't care two craps about any of this.

which kind of proves my initial point. just saying.


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## offbyone (May 5, 2010)

leonardess said:


> just want to mention - this thread started out with the topic of "being a virgin is such a stigma" to "women and sex and the word "****". people of any worth don't care two craps about any of this.
> 
> which kind of proves my initial point. just saying.


Why are we whispering?


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

I won't get into this argument because I know I'll just end up ***** slapping people with words, so I'll quote these comments because I very much agree with them...



joinmartin said:


> Just my personal experience but I've noted that the only people who ever told me that they thought virgin men were losers were men. A small number of men at that.
> 
> Do women think virgin men are losers? Who knows? Some might. Others I know for a fact like the idea of being with a virgin man. Some men think virgin men are losers. Others don't.
> 
> ...


BTW, I love that you always post something well-thought out. I don't think I've ever read a one-sentence post by you. : )



au Lait said:


> Women are basically damned if we do, damned if we don't. A woman who has had sex is labeled a ****. Even if she's only had sex a few times, she's still open to being shammed for it.
> 
> On the other hand, a woman who has not had sex is labeled as "undesirable". There is this prevailing notion that all a woman has to do is step outside in order to revel in non-stop male attention, and any woman who doesn't experience this phenomenon must be unattractive. So by that logic, a female virgin must be undesirable. Of course that idea is false. There was a thread awhile back where the OP asked how often women get approached. 99% of the answers were rarely or never. But even so, that false idea about what it's like to be a woman persists.
> 
> ...


My personal anecdote doesn't mean much, but just to further prove your comments, I was called weird by a "friend" just a couple of months ago for never having had sex.



phoenixwright said:


> Yeah female virgins get judged too. Maybe not a harshly as male virgins though. *Because female virginity is very much voluntary *while involuntary celibacy is often a factor with male virginity. Though not really involuntary because you can always pay for it right?


That doesn't apply to a large portion of women... including myself. :lol



> Just because a girl is shy doesn't mean she's a prude.


Word.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

offbyone said:


> Why are we whispering?


because it's fun. want to play in my fort?


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## OutOfControlPanel (Jul 14, 2012)

Peter Attis said:


> Stop. This is the problem with this entire thread--people keep equating "liking sex" to "having casual sex with lots of people" and act as if people who have a problem with the latter have one with the former.


Yes! Thank you.


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## OutOfControlPanel (Jul 14, 2012)

au Lait said:


> Women are basically damned if we do, damned if we don't. *A woman who has had sex is labeled a ****.*


Not true. If it were true, then all of our moms would be considered ****s. But obviously they're not.


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## offbyone (May 5, 2010)

leonardess said:


> because it's fun. want to play in my fort?


Yes! Can we put a "no *******s allowed" sign on the outside?


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## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

I know a girl that goes both ways :yes


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## northstar1991 (Oct 4, 2011)

PathologicalSigher said:


> Not true. If it were true, then all of our moms would be considered ****s. But obviously they're not.


Women who have sex outside committed relationships are often called "****s".


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> That doesn't apply to a large portion of women... including myself. :lol


So you're saying you're involuntarily celebate? A guy has never tried to have sex with you ever? How can a female actually make it all the way through college without a guy ever attempting? If I woke up tomorrow female, I guarantee that I could pick up a guy at bar, probably a handsome one at that, the first night.

A lot of SA guys are definitely not really involuntarily celebate though. A lot of male virgins on SAS would be able to get laid if they were more persistent.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> So you're saying you're involuntarily celebate? A guy has never tried to have sex with you ever? How can a female actually make it all the way through college without a guy ever attempting? If I woke up tomorrow female, I guarantee that I could pick up a guy at bar, probably a handsome one at that, the first night.
> 
> A lot of SA guys are definitely not really involuntarily celebate though. A lot of male virgins on SAS would be able to get laid if they were more persistent.


I'm pretty sure that's why I wrote in my last post. :roll
And no. No guy has ever tried that, and I could count with ONE hand the amount of guys who've asked me out since I was of "dating age."
I go to an all-women's college, btw. Also, I don't know if you know this, but I have SAD, so the very few guys who've approached me and actually tried having a conversation with me, have gotten maybe a smile and that's it. 
You wrote the post as if I (or women?) have men constantly stopping us on the street to ask us out. And if it did happen to me, I'd be too nervous about the possibility of an awkward silence or not having anything interesting/funny to say to actually go out with him.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I will repeat this once, and that will suffice:

Shyness is a feminine trait generally. Most guys who are shy are not successful with women, unless they are incredibly handsome. Geeks with glasses who are shy are generally not favored in the dating pool.

That is a generalization, and while it is true 95% of the time, there is that 5% of women who will go out with a shy, beta, geeky male. This is when reason is thrown out the window.

But if you are a shy, geeky female, you don't know what we go through. That is not sexism, because gender roles do exist. Men are expected to ask out the woman, even in this day and age. And if you aren't prepared to play the game, don't cry foul when you get burned.

My .02.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> I will repeat this once, and that will suffice:


I wish you would just not say it at all, thank you.



> Shyness is a feminine trait generally. Most guys who are shy are not successful with women, unless they are incredibly handsome. Geeks with glasses who are shy are generally not favored in the dating pool.


Coyness perhaps is associated with women, but not shyness. Shyness in general is not held up to be a positive trait for neither men or women. That you might personally find that attractive or endearing is a personal "taste."



> That is a generalization, and while it is true 95% of the time, there is that 5% of women who will go out with a shy, beta, geeky male. This is when reason is thrown out the window.


Do you know that 87.5% of statistics are made up on the spot? 
Don't make up numbers because you feel resentful you've never been on a date or experienced a relationship with a woman. That doesn't mean women don't like shy men, beta or whatever ridiculous term you've stored.



> But if you are a shy, geeky female, you don't know what we go through. That is not sexism, because gender roles do exist. Men are expected to ask out the woman, even in this day and age. And if you aren't prepared to play the game, don't cry foul when you get burned.
> 
> My .02.


I know what you go through. Men, due to gender roles, "have" to be the initiators or aggressors. Therefore, when it comes to dating, shy men lag behind because they don't have the confidence to be that assertive with women. It makes you feel like **** because you feel like you'll never be with a woman because of it. Let's face it, unless you look like Joseph Gordon Levitt, if you're painfully shy it's going to be really hard to get a date. Women don't commonly ask men out, so you feel this insane pressure to be everything a woman wants for at least a date. Approaching a woman is hard. It takes courage and you have to be prepared to be let down constantly. I'm not taking away from the fact that it's really ****ing hard to have SAD as a man and look for a relationship. I'd be under constant stress that I need to initiate, that I need to look good for her, that I need to try to impress her with my charm, etc. I GET IT.

Why is it so hard for you, a man, to understand what I go through as a really ****ing shy woman?

Do you think men are fawning over me wherever I go? That my shyness gets men all riled up? Put my shy *** next to a cute, talkative girl and I blend in perfectly with the walls. Hell, I blend in perfectly with the walls even if she wasn't cute but was chatty.

Men aren't the only people crippled by shyness. It's a constant struggle in my life too, and it's ****ing tiring to come into what's supposed to be a support message board and have men condescend and belittle my struggles with SAD. We all have issues. Life is hard. Learn to understand others before you write self-indulging, victimizing bull****.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

If you're a guy, you have to get over your fear of talking to women and escalating things.

I got over this fear on Saturday talking to this girl (who also has SA). Now it's not about me fearing that my ego is going to be bruised by rejection. That's what prevents me from doing approaches. Now it's more about the fear of ****ing up with her or losing her to another guy because she's such a catch (at least from what I've seen thus far). There's a sense of urgency on my part to move forward. That's a good thing. Because moving forward is what's going to help you get over the social anxiety and live the life that you want.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Where in the world did I state that shy, geeky women don't have it hard as well? I think you're mixing me up with TPower.

_I just said it's much harder for a male geek to get dates than a female geek, because shyness is better adaptable in females than in males.

_I am not arguing sexism. I am arguing biological logic. Scientists have even agreed with me...so why are you throwing science and logic out the window?

It's incredibly tough as a man to get dates in this world. Unless you are a man, you don't know what we go through. I don't know what women go through, but at least I try to understand. You, however, have ignored everything I tried to argue, and played the sexism card. Go you.

I feel this thread should be closed, because gender wars are stupid. No one wins, and everyone gets pissed off.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> Where in the world did I state that shy, geeky women don't have it hard as well? I think you're mixing me up with TPower.


"Shyness is a feminine trait generally." Implying that shyness is is natural in women is basically stating it's not a problem in our lives.



> _I just said it's much harder for a male geek to get dates than a female geek, because shyness is better adaptable in females than in males._


_
"But if you are a shy, geeky female, you don't know what we go through." 
It might be harder to get a date, but it's equally hard to start a relationship.

_


> I am not arguing sexism. I am arguing biological logic. Scientists have even agreed with me...so why are you throwing science and logic out the window?


There's no biological logic in stating that woman are naturally shy. That's not logic at all.



> It's incredibly tough as a man to get dates in this world. Unless you are a man, you don't know what we go through. I don't know what women go through, but at least I try to understand. You, however, have ignored everything I tried to argue, and played the sexism card. Go you.


Oh my God, your life is doomed and done. You can't get a date! Welcome to the ****ing club. Neither can I. 
It's called sympathy. Trying to understand someone else's perspective and not living in this constant indulgent, self-victimization. If you'd try to understand you wouldn't be throwing the "no woman understand/can't sympathize" card.
Thank you so much for letting my previous post go right over your head.



> I feel this thread should be closed, because gender wars are stupid. No one wins, and everyone gets pissed off.


Edited: A gender war is making attacks on the sexes using common respective traits and claiming the're innate. Debating and comparing the social condition for both men and women and how different they are is not a gender war; it's a discussion.


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## leonardess (Jun 30, 2009)

offbyone said:


> Yes! Can we put a "no *******s allowed" sign on the outside?


that's fine with me, I don't want any virgins in there either.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

leonardess said:


> that's fine with me, I don't want any virgins in there either.


:lol
See, everyone, how both male and female virgins are discriminated against?


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Posting from a feminist blog:

Are Women Attracted to Masculinity in Men?
May 16th, 2007
by Hugh Ristik.

After researching heterosexual female preferences, and beginning a synthesis of this research, the only answer I can give to this question is "yes and no." To see my discussion of the studies I draw on for this post, see the first link.

Certain traits associated with masculinity seem to be attractive to women on average: dominance, confidence, assertiveness, and extraversion. Other traits associated with masculinity seem to be unattractive to women, such as disagreeableness and aggressiveness. Some stereotypically feminine traits are preferred by women, such as agreeableness (though this preference might not always match up with women's behavior, as I discussed in How True Are Stereotypes About What Women Want?). Other feminine traits are a turn off to women, such as submissiveness. Shyness isn't obviously a feminine trait, but it is an unmasculine trait, and it it unattractive to women. Women tend to fantasize sexually about both submission and connection with men (i.e. "romance," or being "swept off their feet"), which is consistent with their preferences for dominance and agreeableness in men.

Note that these conclusions are based on taking the current research at face value. This research has a lot of flaws, such as limited generalizability, and more attention to the similarities and averages in women's preferences than in the differences in preferences between women. Future studies on women's attraction to dominance might follow the results of Burger & Cosby (1999), and find that women are most attracted to men who are neither dominant nor submissive. Likewise, future studies on women's preferences for agreeableness and other feminine traits might find that the current literature overestimates women's desires for those qualities, because women's responses are biased in the direction of what is socially acceptable for them to want.

I would also like to emphasize that a major weakness of this research is a lack of attention to variation of preferences within women, and I would really like to see more studies that explore this variation. I know that some women feel pigeon-holed when generalizations about female preferences are made. I think feminist women especially are likely to have preferences that differ from the female average. Still, I hope that when an individual women's preferences differ from the average, she should not dismiss the existence of average female preferences, or the importance of figuring what those are. It's not enough to just throw up one's hands and say "well, I / my friends aren't like that, so it can't be true," because the exception doesn't disprove the tendency. Similarly, the response that "every woman wants something different" is true, but trivial, and really just blocks constructive investigation of this subject. Also, I should say that I think placing only women's preferences under the scientific microscope is a form of objectification of a mysterious female Other, and that men's preferences are also an important subject that I will have more to say about in the future.

Possible relationships between masculinity and female attraction

There are several ways in which masculinity could be related to female attraction to men. First, there could be a simple linear relationship: more masculinity is more attractive (or that more masculinity is less attractive). Second, there could be a curvilinear relationship: more masculinity is more attractive up to a certain point, but then it doesn't increase attractiveness, or even decreases it. Third, there could be a relationship where a baseline level of masculinity is required, but past that level of masculinity, no more is necessary. Fourth, female attraction could be a function of both masculine and feminine qualities, such that more masculine qualities only increase female attraction when feminine qualities also increase.

The research is not consistent with the first model, that there is a linear relationship between masculinity and female attraction. More likely, masculinity is only increasingly attractive up to a certain point, like the curvilinear model suggests, at which point it becomes less attractive. Or masculinity is only important up to a certain amount, past which other qualities (such as feminine qualities) become more important. Women may tend to want men who are masculine enough to make the moves, take charge, and stand up for themselves, but who aren't so masculine that they are dominating, unfeeling, controlling, violent, or abusive. There is also support for the notion that attraction comes from an interaction of masculine and feminine qualities (e.g. the "bad boy with a tender side").

So yes, women are attracted to masculine qualities in men, but there are several qualifiers to that statement: (1) only some masculine qualities are attractive, (2) women may respond to certain feminine qualities also, in addition to, or in interaction with masculine qualities, and (3) more masculinity isn't always better (rather, each straight women may have a "sweet spot" or threshold for how masculine she wants her men, which of course changes with her age and menstrual cycle).

These nuances are why I titled this post "Are Women Attracted to Masculinity in Men?" rather than "Are Women Attracted to Masculine Men?" The first phrasing is more compatible with the notion that masculine qualities are some of the various qualities that are attractive to women. Furthermore, saying that "women are attracted to masculine men" might falsely imply that women aren't attracted to feminine or androgynous aspects of men, and that women are increasingly attracted to increasingly masculine men, which does not seem to be true. That notion seems to imply that all women are attracted to ultra-macho Rambo or Schwarzenegger types, a stereotype that many women correctly protest.

In a review of many of the same studies I've discussed, Hill (2006) comes to similar conclusions that I have, and suggests that "feminine men may be attractive to some heterosexual women, but most women prefer also that he has some masculine attributes, making him more androgynous." I would say that most straight women prefer men with a baseline level of masculinity, and that some of these women look for men with feminine qualities also, especially when they are seeking more long-term partners. Hill also discusses the implications of female preferences on how men enact or challenge traditional masculinity, an important subject I will take up in later.

http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2007/05/16/are-women-attracted-to-masculinity-in-men/


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> Posting from a feminist blog:
> 
> *Are Women Attracted to Masculinity in Men?*
> May 16th, 2007
> ...


I will read the whole thing later, but this is as far as I need to get to prove your point that women are "biologically shy" is a fallacy, as well as that they like aggressive men. Don't get me started on the fact that masculinity is a very vague term.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

AllToAll said:


> I will read the whole thing later, but this is as far as I need to get to prove your point that women are "biologically shy" is a fallacy, as well as that they like aggressive men. Don't get me started on the fact that masculinity is a very vague term.


I said not every woman, didn't I? I said not every geek, didn't I?

I think you're just trying to start an argument, because you feel rejected, like I do. Let's just leave it at that, shall we?

I am sorry you have trouble with men, but that doesn't mean that every man who struggles to understand why he has trouble with women automatically hates them. I have a good relationship with all the women I do know, they just don't want to date me, or are family members, or are married. Etc.

EDIT: I just re-read my post. Read it again. *Generally*, and *most*, does not mean all. Epic fail.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> I said not every woman, didn't I? I said not every geek, didn't I?
> 
> I think you're just trying to start an argument, because you feel rejected, like I do. Let's just leave it at that, shall we?


I have no problem with men. In fact, I'm quite fond of them. It's flattering that you're using my points against you back at me... And no, I don't feel rejected. I don't have a problem with men not asking me out. I'd like to be dating someone, but I acknowledge that's my singlehood is my "fault" and no one else's, especially not a man's. I also don't waste my time blaming society.
I'm arguing your point and the fact that you're victimizing yourself and making the problems of women with SAD trivial.



> I am sorry you have trouble with men, but that doesn't mean that every man who struggles to understand why he has trouble with women automatically hates them. I have a good relationship with all the women I do know, they just don't want to date me, or are family members, or are married. Etc.
> 
> EDIT: I just re-read my post. Read it again. Generally, and most, does not mean all. Epic fail.


Where did I state you hated women? In fact, I never said you were making generalizations about women either. All I pointed out is that I understand life as a man with SAD is tough, but you're making it into a competition by saying that your problems are greater than that of women (or "a large portion") with SAD.

This is a message board and we're free to argue other people's stance. If you don't like it don't follow my rope. If I don't agree with a post I'll state my case, and that doesn't mean I'm "looking for an argument." It's just my, what was it again? Oh yeah, my two cents.


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

Xtraneous said:


> Calm down, ****s.





leonardess said:


> ^ oh shut up, you virgin.


Best exchange in this thread :lol



AllToAll said:


> My personal anecdote doesn't mean much, but just to further prove your comments, *I was called weird by a "friend" just a couple of months ago for never having had sex.*





phoenixwright said:


> So you're saying you're involuntarily celebate? A guy has never tried to have sex with you ever? *How can a female actually make it all the way through college without a guy ever attempting?* If I woke up tomorrow female, I guarantee that I could pick up a guy at bar, probably a handsome one at that, the first night.


Irony :yes

Also:


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## XxArmyofOnexX (Aug 13, 2007)

**** MODERATOR OVERWATCH ONLINE ****


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

So the thread lock would be partly my fault, I assume.... well....


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I never said that I had more problems than women who have social anxiety. I did acknowledge that there are women out there who have trouble with men, because of shyness. I just said it was more easy for women who are shy to get boyfriends than men who are shy to get girlfriends, because of gender roles.

Oh, what am I kidding? I threw myself into this mess. Try to argue biology with a feminist, and even if you support women's rights yourself, you get attacked for being wrong...oh, so wrong. Oh yes, the fact that men have evolved over years and years of evolution to be stronger, more powerful, and more aggressive towards the opposite sex is completely lost on you.

I agree, thread lock, please.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> I never said that I had more problems than women who have social anxiety. I did acknowledge that there are women out there who have trouble with men, because of shyness. *I just said it was more easy for women who are shy to get boyfriends than men who are shy to get girlfriends, because of gender roles*.


Right after I wrote about the fact that I'd never been on a date... Obviously, it's harder for you. :roll



> Oh, what am I kidding? I threw myself into this mess. Try to argue biology with a feminist, and even if you support women's rights yourself, you get attacked for being wrong...oh, so wrong. *Oh yes, the fact that men have evolved over years and years of evolution to be stronger, more powerful, and more aggressive towards the opposite sex is completely lost on you.*
> 
> I agree, thread lock, please.


There's no biology in your argument! You're making that up! Even the article you posted mentioned that shyness wasn't a female trait. :lol

Also, what does the bold part have to do with anything? It sounds like you're justifying women being attracted to aggressive men. Wouldn't that then be a failure on your part rather than society? :sus


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

*** Thread Lock ***

*Board Guidelines*:



> Personal attacks on any member of this community will not be tolerated. Any post, which is judged by the moderators to be defamatory, degrading, threatening, humiliating, insulting or hurtful in any way to another member of the community, will be edited or deleted at the moderators' discretion. Antagonizing or demeaning language that isn't necessarily directed at any individual may also be considered unacceptable.





> This site is not a competition - it's not about whose particular brand of SA is the worse, who suffers more than whom, or who has the right to call their problems Social Anxiety. The belittlement of others' suffering will not be tolerated.


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