# Ladies, why don't you like nice guys?



## CrimsonTrigger (Jun 28, 2011)

Since I've heard many complaints from a lot of guys on the internet and in other places about how women hate nice guys and won't give them a chance and always go for the jerks. Then when a nice guy starts acting like a jerk, the women still hate them, leading to a very frustrated and confused male.

So I'm giving you the opportunity to tell me what turns _you_ off about nice guys.

Note that I already know the reason because I managed to figured it out. I'm just giving you the opportunity to share your opinions and help other guys here who are confused.


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## Paul (Sep 26, 2005)

If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


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## Droidsteel (Mar 22, 2012)

Because 'nice' is just a nice way of saying 'boring'

I know Im not a girl but thats what I think the problem is :b


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## CrimsonTrigger (Jun 28, 2011)

Nice is just a small part of someone's personality. That alone is not enough to make someone attractive. If you aren't capable of doing anything else aside from being nice, then what's the point? Life is boring if you don't know how to have fun and joke around, and at times if necessary, be mean.


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## Barette (Jan 17, 2012)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


I've noticed that too, in life as well.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

Agree with Paul. My meaning of nice guys is nice guys but everybody else thinks nice guys are *** holes in disguise. Which may be true. If someone is nice to me and respects me and doesn't say douchy comments then you are nice guy. Guys that brag about being "nice guys" are just bragging meh...how about just being one instead of saying it.

I don't get the appeal of jerks anyways..


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## Kollarbones (Apr 16, 2012)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are.


THIS.

A lot of guys who call themselves 'nice guys' never are nice. I hate jerks. I don't know why guys always complain that girls just go for the *******s. I don't. At least I try not to. I always go for the nice ones. Personally there's nothing I find attractive about jerks. I do not like the whole 'chasing' idea, in fact I hate it. I like to know where I stand and cannot put up with the whole hard-to-get, popular, cocky kind of traits these guys have.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Paul:1059855337 said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


Wow..spot on. Perfectly said.

Girls do like nice guys. Guys who are genuinely nice but also aren't pushovers and can show them a good time. It's hard to be that kind of nice guy when you're a bitter, SA-fueled virgin (been there), but it's something to keep in mind when you are ticked off from your latest rejection. In other words, look at yourself first and how you can improve instead of throwing stones at society or the entire female race.


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## garycoleman (Feb 9, 2012)

Normal girls like nice guys. The crazy game playing girls like jerks. So if you want to be a nice guy stick to normal girls


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

opcorn


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

I guess I would call myself normally nice, I'm just so bitter I've converted to a jerk. Oh well


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## Einangra (Jul 28, 2010)

I think men and women's idea of a 'nice guy' is quite different indeed.

And I'd agree with the women who say many self-proclaimed 'nice guys' aren't, in fact, all that nice. A lot of men seem to think that being polite and saying kind things to a woman in order to get her into bed makes them a nice guy. In reality, is simply makes him 'a guy' who is perhaps being a tad dishonest.

I myself am quiet (naturally) and I'm always very polite but I wouldn't for second proclaim myself a nice guy. I'm just_ a_ guy.

I think women seem to prefer the more outgoing, dare I say, cheeky type who is up front about what he wants out of her and the type of relationship he is hoping for, rather than a quiet man who seems to have an agenda.

And of course, for the quiet man who IS genuinely nice, well that can make things difficult for him, sadly.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

It is the reverse. If you are already attractive to the opposite sex then you can be a jerk and still get guys/girls. If you aren't all that attractive then you have to be nice, otherwise you are never getting anywhere with the opposite sex. So that is why it may look like people prefer jerks.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Einangra said:


> I think men and women's idea of a 'nice guy' is quite different indeed.
> 
> And I'd agree with the women who say many self-proclaimed 'nice guys' aren't, in fact, all that nice. A lot of men seem to think that being polite and saying kind things to a woman in order to get her into bed makes them a nice guy. In reality, is simply makes him 'a guy' who is perhaps being a tad dishonest.
> 
> ...


Okay then define nice? Being a doormat for other people?


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Dissonance said:


> Okay then define nice? Being a doormat for other people?


A pushover is a doormat for other people.



rymo said:


> Wow..spot on. Perfectly said.
> 
> Girls do like nice guys. Guys who are genuinely nice but also aren't pushovers and can show them a good time. It's hard to be that kind of nice guy when you're a bitter, SA-fueled virgin (been there), but it's something to keep in mind when you are ticked off from your latest rejection. In other words, look at yourself first and how you can improve instead of throwing stones at society or the entire female race.


Well said, rymo. :yes


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


This.
women aren't slot machines, and you do not get a prize for doing something as basic as being nice, anymore than you get points for breathing and having a pulse.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh, okay, so since a bunch of self-proclaimed nice guys said this about women, then it must be true. I mean who knows women better than men? :roll



Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


Speak the truth!


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

You know what you're right I'm not nice, not by dictionary standards:
1. Pleasing and agreeable in nature:
2. Having a pleasant or attractive appearance
3. Exhibiting courtesy and politeness
4. Of good character and reputation; respectable.


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## MidnightBlu (Jun 11, 2006)

I like nice guys.


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## Farideh (Nov 13, 2011)

I think nice guys are attractive. I like nice guys. I hate jerks. Those guys are really unattractive to me and I fail to see why women think a jerky guy is attractive.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

I find some of the insinuations in this thread very insulting. Okay, some people fake niceness to get what they want. So now everyone who claims to be nice is a jerk? I am most definitely a nice guy, and I'm proud of it. Does the fact that I state that suddenly mean I'm really a jerk? Seriously? I'm sorry but this whole thing reeks of 'victim blaming'. I'm not going to get into the whole 'do women hate nice guys' thing, because it's a silly argument and it's been beaten to death already. But at the very least, don't make up silly rules to insult nice guys just for complaining about the sad state of their world.

We are all brought up with the idea that being nice is good and that good people always win in the end. Then we go to school and see aggressive jerks everywhere getting rewarded for picking on the weaker kids, gaining popularity while the weaker kids are left to suffer and become fearful. But it's okay, our parents tell us. The bullies may be popular now, but they'll never amount to anything. You are a good person who will go on to have great success while the bullies will get jobs picking up garbage, wishing they had been nicer to the kind-hearted intelligent kids back in school. And we believe them, and go on with our lives.

Then we get to adulthood and start thinking about politics, society, history, religion, and so on. We see a troubling trend: history is an endless march of ruthless, power-hungry dictators and wealthy people suppressing the masses for their own benefit. But it's okay, we tell ourselves. Now we have finally gotten rid of those tyrants and have democracy. Things should be just wonderful now, right? But no. We take a look at these democratic leaders and realize that they are just as ruthless and aggressive - and we also realize that the masses are responsible for this sorry state of affairs because they were the ones who wanted these leaders. And so we lose faith in humanity.

So you go on with your life, through grad school, which is a bloody disaster because you have no social confidence to speak of because the aggressive jerks back in school wouldn't let you have any. But with great difficulty you keep going, because you want to make something of yourself. And then one day when you're particularly depressed, you find out that one of your old bullies has become a computer programmer with a kickass job, another one has graduated from ****ing law school, and they and other bullies all have fantastic social lives and are happy as can be.

Now I ask you, where is the justice in that? What happened to that bull**** we were fed as kids where 'good people win in the end and the bad people get their just desserts'? How can anyone continue to believe that knowing everything they know about the world?

Many of us truly are nice people. We do not want to be anything but, because we recognize its inherent virtue and we strive to live up to ideals of compassion, empathy, etc. But are you going to insult us now by telling us, just because we have eyes and can see how the world is run by insensitive brutes while the nice people are often crushed under their feet and we have the 'audacity' to complain about that fact, that we are now to be labelled as secret jerks? Is all our goodness now irrelevant simply because we happened to make an observation about the world?

Again, I'm making no comment about whether women like nice guys or not. But all I ask is that people not insult my intelligence by pretending the world is good and just and using that assumption to blame the victims whose only 'crime' was to complain about it.


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## Ape in space (May 31, 2010)

Sorry for ranting.... it's just that I've heard this 'nice guys are secretly jerks' argument before and I'm rather sensitive to it. It strikes me like something you might say to a victim to try to silence them. I apologize if that's not how you meant it.


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## KelsKels (Oct 4, 2011)

I dont think its just nice guys in general. Lots of women enjoy being respected (believe it or not). But I think the overly nice guy gets a bad wrap because women look for very confident men who are assure of themselves. If you bend over backwards and are TOO nice, it makes you look weak and not self assured.


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## Louis (Jun 30, 2009)

Theres too much focus on being a nice guy rather than a good guy. A good guy is there when he says, works hard, will go out of his not only for a girl but for his buddies too. Being nice alone doesn't make you good, theres a lot of underhanded reasons for being nice and a lot of people put forward a fake personality to try and be something their not. When it comes right down to it whether your a jerk or nice what really matters is the stuff you do.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Only low-status nice guys don't get women.

Nice guys with popularity and/or respect from his entourage will attract women.


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## MidnightBlu (Jun 11, 2006)

Ape in space said:


> Sorry for ranting.... it's just that I've heard this 'nice guys are secretly jerks' argument before and I'm rather sensitive to it. It strikes me like something you might say to a victim to try to silence them. I apologize if that's not how you meant it.


I don't think they mean that all nice guys are secretly jerks. Yes there are those types of guys, but there are definitely a lot of genuine nice guys.


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## MidnightBlu (Jun 11, 2006)

Louis said:


> Theres too much focus on being a nice guy rather than a good guy. A good guy is there when he says, works hard, will go out of his not only for a girl but for his buddies too. Being nice alone doesn't make you good, theres a lot of underhanded reasons for being nice and a lot of people put forward a fake personality to try and be something their not. When it comes right down to it whether your a jerk or nice what really matters is the stuff you do.


Concur.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> I find some of the insinuations in this thread very insulting. So some people fake niceness to get what they want. So now everyone who claims to be nice is a jerk? I am most definitely a nice guy, and I'm proud of it. Does the fact that I state that suddenly mean I'm really a jerk? Seriously? I'm sorry but this whole thing reeks of 'victim blaming'. I'm not going to get into the whole 'do women hate nice guys' thing, because it's a silly argument and it's been beaten to death already. But at the very least, don't make up silly rules to insult nice guys just for complaining about the sad state of their world.
> 
> We are all brought up with the idea that being nice is good and that good people always win in the end. Then we go to school and see aggressive jerks everywhere getting rewarded for picking on the weaker kids, gaining popularity while the weaker kids are left to suffer and become fearful. But it's okay, our parents tell us. The bullies may be popular now, but they'll never amount to anything. You are a good person who will go on have great success while the bullies will get jobs picking up garbage, wishing they had been nicer to the kind-hearted intelligent kids back in school. And we believe them, and go on with our lives.
> 
> ...


Good God, you said everything that needed to be said. This is why I am so damn bitter. This fairy tale idea bull **** we feed to kids as children is like Santa Claus but much worse, we suppress our anger and for what? Nothing!

The sad thing no one will read this greatly written rant.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> I find some of the insinuations in this thread very insulting. So some people fake niceness to get what they want. So now everyone who claims to be nice is a jerk? I am most definitely a nice guy, and I'm proud of it. Does the fact that I state that suddenly mean I'm really a jerk? Seriously? I'm sorry but this whole thing reeks of 'victim blaming'. I'm not going to get into the whole 'do women hate nice guys' thing, because it's a silly argument and it's been beaten to death already. But at the very least, don't make up silly rules to insult nice guys just for complaining about the sad state of their world.


Generally, this argument is directed to guys who go around saying, "I'm a good guy. I don't get why girls don't notice it. I'm deserving of all women's attention!"
It's okay if you think you're a nice guy. Just because you're taking it personally doesn't mean that there's not a great amount of self-proclaimed nice guys who are actually self-deserving, narcissistic, mama's boys who expect women to treat them like gods.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Nice, doesn't mean being a child either. I am a caring person, I'm always there for my friends/lover/and sometimes stranger, but that doesn't change the fact that I am assertive when it counts, take responsibility, *and carry my weight in a relationship.*. If you aren't able to assert your own needs as well, that isn't attractive and is bound to create a very one sided unhealthy relationship. Not to mention that this kind of niceness just reeks insecurity and does not seem truly genuine. 
It's possible that somebody is truly nice and still isn't an ideal partner. This could be the reason. Like I said before, being a good person is basic, and doesn't deserve anymore praise than not assaulting somebody.


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

I've known several guys who were not only nice, but very popular, and attractive to women. In PUA parlance, they would definitely be considered alphas. The difference between them and "nice guys"

- They were self-confident. They believed in themselves.
- They were outgoing and interested in people (which can be hard for SASers).
- They were nice *without being groveling*. The did nice things naturally, with confidence, as a choice, and they didn't act like a doormat.
- They stood up for themselves. They weren't at everyone else's beck and call. If they could help somebody out, they did. If they couldn't, they would assertively and nicely say that they just couldn't help at that time.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Witan said:


> I've known several guys who were not only nice, but very popular, and attractive to women. In PUA parlance, they would definitely be considered alphas. The difference between them and "nice guys"
> 
> - They were self-confident. They believed in themselves.
> - They were outgoing and interested in people (which can be hard for SASers).
> ...


So who's the real nice guy?


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Witan said:


> I've known several guys who were not only nice, but very popular, and attractive to women. In PUA parlance, they would definitely be considered alphas. The difference between them and "nice guys"
> 
> - They were self-confident. They believed in themselves.
> - They were outgoing and interested in people (which can be hard for SASers).
> ...


aside from the PUA concept, I agree with all of this.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Okay. So the confident guy is the nice guy, what does that make us?


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Dissonance said:


> Okay. So the confident guy is the nice guy, what does that make us?


Well, somebody who is a good person because they want to is in a far healthier place. Somebody who does things for everyone and never takes care of their own needs may not be inherently a bad person, but at the end of the day you are still doing things to earn points, or to earn love from people. It doesn't make you a bad person per say, but it will come off as sort of strange to some people and they may not even understand why. I believe it is because that is too much pressure on a person, it feels like they are helping you out of obligation and a lack of self esteem rather than because they care/want to. Does that make sense?


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

alissaxvanity said:


> Well, somebody who is a good person because they want to is in a far healthier place. Somebody who does things for everyone and never takes care of their own needs may not be inherently a bad person, but at the end of the day you are still doing things to earn points, or to earn love from people. It doesn't make you a bad person per say, but it will come off as sort of strange to some people and they may not even understand why. I believe it is because that is too much pressure on a person, it feels like they are helping you out of obligation and a lack of self esteem rather than because they care/want to. Does that make sense?


Yeah. Basically I've been royally screwed over.


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## Toppington (Oct 26, 2011)

Ape in space said:


> Sorry for ranting.... it's just that I've heard this 'nice guys are secretly jerks' argument before and I'm rather sensitive to it. It strikes me like something you might say to a victim to try to silence them. I apologize if that's not how you meant it.


I don't really think you should be apologizing. I'm glad you decided to post something of that nature. Very uplifting (in an odd way) and truthful rather than just bandwagoning like a lot of others in this thread.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

Again there is a difference between being good-hearted and kind, than to be nice only if it benefits you.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

rdrr said:


> Again there is a difference between being good-hearted and kind, than to be nice only if it benefits you.


 I mean I do things because I hate seeing a friend being down, and try to support them is that so bad?

It's so confusing. In the end what makes something being nice to someone for only benefiting themselves? Isn't the whole idea of going up to a girl and saying she's beautiful in a sense a way of being nice to benefit yourself? Hoping it will win her over?

My mind is full of ducks.


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## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

How about guys that are nice and respectful and don't treat you like trash....that's my definition.


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## Rossy (Jan 15, 2011)

meganmila said:


> How about guys that are nice and respectful and don't treat you like trash....that's my definition.


Thats pretty much me.


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## quietmusicman (Feb 3, 2012)

CrimsonTrigger said:


> Since I've heard many complaints from a lot of guys on the internet and in other places about how women hate nice guys and won't give them a chance and always go for the jerks. Then when a nice guy starts acting like a jerk, the women still hate them, leading to a very frustrated and confused male.
> 
> So I'm giving you the opportunity to tell me what turns _you_ off about nice guys.
> 
> Note that I already know the reason because I managed to figured it out. I'm just giving you the opportunity to share your opinions and help other guys here who are confused.


Because chicks assume you are their gay friends


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

Most guys dont treat ladies like trash; It's just people constantly like to compare and compete, so when they see a situation where they feel they can be better than the next guy, they will complain that the girl only likes "jerks" because he feels he isnt a "jerk" and wishes he can be with her, or any other girl.

If a girl is physically attracted to you, and attracted to your personality, then she will get with you. No amount of just being overly nice will not work, generally. I suppose those who claim to be "nice guys", but do not have success, do not see how overly desperate it makes them look, when they over-do it purely for the hope of getting the person's attention.


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## VivaLaVida101 (Apr 18, 2012)

*wel...*

Well im a girl and i love nice guys XD.... I hate the bad boys actually... Me n them never click...  sooo just to tell u there are some girls that like "nice" guyz... I think nice guys r the most adorable ^^


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

quietmusicman said:


> Because chicks assume you are their gay friends







Reminds me of this scenario.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

rdrr said:


> Most guys dont treat ladies like trash; It's just people constantly like to compare and compete, so when they see a situation where they feel they can be better than the next guy, they will complain that the girl only likes "jerks" because he feels he isnt a "jerk" and wishes he can be with her, or any other girl.
> 
> If a girl is physically attracted to you, and attracted to your personality, then she will get with you. No amount of just being overly nice will not work, generally. I suppose those who claim to be "nice guys", but do not have success, do not see how overly desperate it makes them look, when they over-do it purely for the hope of getting the person's attention.


Makes sense I can actually accept that answer.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

It seems that many people have self-contradictory views of what it means to be "nice".
I'm sure most here will know of the bible passage _"If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also,"_ but I'm starting to think we've lost understanding of what it actually means.
It seems that today, somebody turning the other cheek would be labelled a "doormat" and the person to 'stand up for themselves' and strike back would be considered "nice".
And the person now having to put up with the "doormat" label often even gets told that he is in actuality not nice for various reasons; such as only being nice because they're desperate.
It's kinda funny, but not really.. because if the "doormat" instead decides to stand up for themselves and not keep being kind to others who exploit them, they now get told they were only being nice to receive favourable treatment, which apparently also isn't nice.
Our idea of what is "nice" seems to have shifted quite a bit - which is convenient, because it means we don't really have to try hard at all to be the best we possibly could be.

The truth of the matter is, that nobody are selfless and do things without benefiting from it themselves. Personal satisfaction is the motivation for everything we do; from brushing our teeth to helping old ladies across the street. We feel good when we do good and that's why we keep doing it.
The only things that have any say on whether or not we are "nice" is whether we do things with honesty and whether we do them to the benefit or at the cost of others.


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## TigerRifle1 (Jan 25, 2012)

Girls like nice guys fine. What they don't like is guys who expect being nice is going to get them somewhere with girls. Being nice is an obligatory value, girls expect it to exist in a guy based on mere social obligation. Its the starting point, something you build on to ,not something you bank on.


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## squidlette (Jan 9, 2012)

I think Paul won the thread.


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## Kennnie (Oct 21, 2010)

sometimes i pretend im gay so girls wont hit on me


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Now I suddenly feel portrayed as evil.


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## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

Milco said:


> It seems that many people have self-contradictory views of what it means to be "nice".
> I'm sure most here will know of the bible passage _"If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also,"_ but I'm starting to think we've lost understanding of what it actually means.
> It seems that today, somebody turning the other cheek would be labelled a "doormat" and the person to 'stand up for themselves' and strike back would be considered "nice".
> And the person now having to put up with the "doormat" label often even gets told that he is in actuality not nice for various reasons; such as only being nice because they're desperate.
> ...


Which is why I define nice guys as guys who have a set of principles that lead to them doing nice things for other people (and not just the girls they want to go out with), not guys who do nice things because they're either hoping to get someone's approval or to get something in return.

I think anyone who gives the other cheek when he gets slapped on one cheek is dumb. He may still be nice, but dumbness trumps niceness anytime.



> The truth of the matter is, that nobody are selfless and do things without benefiting from it themselves. Personal satisfaction is the motivation for everything we do; from brushing our teeth to helping old ladies across the street. We feel good when we do good and that's why we keep doing it.


Sure, but I think there's a difference between someone who goes out with every girl he finds attractive and someone who, say, gives the last working parachute to another passenger. The two of them undoubtedly do what they do for their personal satisfaction (however temporary it may be), but is anyone really going to argue the first someone is a lot selfless than the second someone?


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## Ckg2011 (Aug 9, 2011)

I don't understand any of this, being a good person is all I have ever been. It's not in me to be mean or disrespectful. An guess women see that is weak?


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

rednosereindeer said:


> Which is why I define nice guys as guys who have a set of principles that lead to them doing nice things for other people (and not just the girls they want to go out with), not guys who do nice things because they're either hoping to get someone's approval or to get something in return.
> 
> I think anyone who gives the other cheek when he gets slapped on one cheek is dumb. He may still be nice, but dumbness trumps niceness anytime.


But my point is exactly that everything you do is to get something in return.
Personal satisfaction can only take you so far.. Nobody likes being used, so if your (genuine) niceness does not result in good things for you, but you instead see people around you who are less nice to others and who are doing better and are more socially accepted, that is a big problem.

And I'm sorry you think that's dumb. I'm guessing most people would agree with you, but I would not.
Rather, I see that as reason for/symptom of what's going wrong in our society.



> Sure, but I think there's a difference between someone who goes out with every girl he finds attractive and someone who, say, gives the last working parachute to another passenger. The two of them undoubtedly do what they do for their personal satisfaction (however temporary it may be), but is anyone really going to argue the first someone is a lot selfless than the second someone?


Again, nobody does things selflessly, so neither person should receive praise based on that. By all means show gratitude - this helps encourage similar behaviour - but I don't think it should ever be called altruistic or selfless.
Wouldn't the person to offer others the parachute be the person you called "dumb" just above though?
I would say that acting in the way that causes the least harm/the most good possible to others would be the nicest way to be, but that would involve not hitting back when others hit you.


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## Resonance (Feb 11, 2010)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


I think this is an oversimplification. I imagine there are a fair few genuinely "nice" (however you want to define that) people who simply lack the social skills required for romantic partnership. When they see less "nice" people who _do_ have the necessary social skills experience romance, they naturally become resentful. It is the part where they start blaming women that is problematic.


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

Dissonance said:


> Yeah. Basically I've been royally screwed over.


what do you mean?


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## Mirror (Mar 16, 2012)

Perhaps it's because "nice guys" display their good side externally, whereas jerks put on a show to grab attention, and (usually) have a sweeter side that isn't immediately apparent. I believe it all comes back to biology. Males attract females by showing themselves off and trying to beat competition, so if he's the loudest and showing the most dominance, the female might think he's shown he can take care of himself and her. Plus, (I think someone already said this) I believe it's true that women like to be singled out by them because they like the attention. Everyone likes attention. Just sayin'.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

This thread again?

Girls like nice guys.

This is starting to annoy me people don't get this...

A real nice guy isn't a push over or a doormat or a needy wimp. Unfortunately, the whole freakin' world wants to adopt this philosophy. A nice guy can have confidence and a badass at the same time. What the OP is referring to is the misconception of what a nice guy is, and he is using new age terminology to describe a coward.

What you guys need to understand is that a nice guy is just a nice person, and it doesn't mean he is a coward. Stop using new age terminology to fuel your confusion.

I'm a nice guy but I don't take BS either and I stick up for myself. I also treat women well and I respect them. Women like me.

If this thread comes up again I will likely not respond because I have repeated this over and over again. Questions that get answered but are still hard to pinpoint are at least worthy of being asked over and over and over, but "nice guy" stuff--i'm done with it


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## Revenwyn (Apr 11, 2011)

Who says girls don't like nice guys? I think every girl wants a guy who is nice, unfortunately a lot of them end up with a guy who was play-acting to get the girl, which leads to the stereotype of girls liking bad boys.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

Women want status, regardless of the man's niceness.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

bwidger85 said:


> A real nice guy isn't a push over or a doormat or a needy wimp. Unfortunately, the whole freakin' world wants to adopt this philosophy.
> ...
> What you guys need to understand is that a nice guy is just a nice person, and it doesn't mean he is a coward. Stop using new age terminology to fuel your confusion.


Really? The whole world?
Because looking at this thread and every other thread about this subject that have been on this forum, pretty much everybody are using the word "doormat" about some people and saying those people aren't dumb, needy, unattractive and that they are only acting that way to get affirmation, so they're not actually even nice.
So if anything, people seem to very much look down on people who do not visibly fight back, and certainly not giving them any praise.

I'm not sure what you mean about "new age terminology" and I'm not sure you've answered the questions with your post, so they probably will pop up again. You're of course free to not respond then, as you say.


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## arpeggiator (Jan 6, 2011)

Someone once told me that being nice is like peeing against the wind, it always splashes you. I guess he was right.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Milco said:


> I'm not sure what you mean about "new age terminology" and I'm not sure you've answered the questions with your post, so they probably will pop up again. You're of course free to not respond then, as you say.


By "new age terminology", I think he means the misguided concepts of this ridiculous society.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

BobtheSaint said:


> By "new age terminology", I think he means the misguided concepts of this ridiculous society.


So what are the "misguided concepts of this ridiculous society"?
"Turning the other cheek" is actually quite old - it's in the Bible - so I don't know if that's what you mean?
Also, do people really believe in those things? And if so, why would it be ridiculous?
Is calling other people "doormats" and looking down on them a nice thing to do?


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Milco said:


> So what are the "misguided concepts of this ridiculous society"?


They've been in all of the gender war threads this week. Nice guys finish last, all men want sex, women are supposed to be submsissive and want badboys, etc.



> "Turning the other cheek" is actually quite old - it's in the Bible - so I don't know if that's what you mean?
> Also, do people really believe in those things? And if so, why would it be ridiculous?


To each their own. I've heard of "turn the other cheek" before. It sort of have a pacifist kind of meaning.



> Is calling other people "doormats" and looking down on them a nice thing to do?


Nope. :no


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Milco said:


> Really? The whole world?
> Because looking at this thread and every other thread about this subject that have been on this forum, pretty much everybody are using the word "doormat" about some people and saying those people aren't dumb, needy, unattractive and that they are only acting that way to get affirmation, so they're not actually even nice.
> So if anything, people seem to very much look down on people who do not visibly fight back, and certainly not giving them any praise.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean about "new age terminology" and I'm not sure you've answered the questions with your post, so they probably will pop up again. You're of course free to not respond then, as you say.


What I mean by new age terminology describes what people think of 'nice guys" nowadays (or often). They don't just take "nice guy" as being a nice guy, instead they add extra meanings to it that isn't even true of it's definition: "Whimp", "Pushover" "Doormat" "Fake" "Manipulative", etc.

The real definition of a nice guy is a guy who is nice. That's it. None of this extra BS people throw onto it to make a nice guy a coward or manipulator.

Nice guys are not cowards. Cowards are cowards. Nice guys are not manipulative. Manipulators are manipulators. A real nice guy is a guy who is nice, and that's it.

A nice guy can be a coward, but if he is a coward then he is a nice guy who is a coward. On the other hand, a nice guy can be a confident nice guy, and this means he is nice as well as confident. A nice guy can be a manipulator, but this means he is a nice guy who is a manipulator. A nice guy doesn't have to be a manipulator, but this means he is a nice guy who is not a manipulator.

If you still don't see the distinction then you are one of the confused ones who throws meanings on words that aren't even true of it's original definition. It'd be like looking at a girl and saying she's a ***** just because it's the cool new rap terminology. Instead, you should look at a girl and say she is a girl but she can also be good, bad depending on a variety of factors.

Hopefully you get the picture now.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

BobtheSaint said:


> They've been in all of the gender war threads this week. Nice guys finish last, all men want sex, women are supposed to be submsissive and want badboys, etc.
> 
> To each their own. I've heard of "turn the other cheek" before. It sort of have a pacifist kind of meaning.
> 
> Nope. :no


Any time people say others "should" be a certain way or that "all" of some group have a certain trait there's reason to stop up.
But surely there are tendencies and inclinations, either from biology or from our culture, that makes certain traits more favourable than others statistically speaking..?
And when it is so often repeated that "women don't want doormats" it does seem that it's only because "doormats" are being deliberately excluded from the group of "nice" people that that first idea isn't true..?
Would it be bad if a "bad boy" fantasy actually was widespread among women? Are we denying it because it's not true or are we denying it out of fear that some would use that as an excuse to be rude and mean to others?

Yeah, it definitely is a pacifist idea and I just happen to be a pacifist :b
I'd hope people didn't consider me a "doormat" for that though :um

From your first reply in this thread, I got the impression you thought some people were "doormats", but I must have misread what you meant.
Sorry about that.



bwidger85 said:


> A nice guy can be a coward, but if he is a coward then he is a nice guy who is a coward.


I just wanted to know if you saw these as mutually exclusive, so this summed up what I wanted to know, thanks!


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

Milco said:


> Any time people say others "should" be a certain way or that "all" of some group have a certain trait there's reason to stop up.
> But surely there are tendencies and inclinations, either from biology or from our culture, that makes certain traits more favourable than others statistically speaking..?


I would say it has more to do with culture. Western society forces the idea of men being being dominant, but there are other societies in which women are dominant over men. It's only biological to react to our surroundings.



> And when it is so often repeated that "women don't want doormats" it does seem that it's only because "doormats" are being deliberately excluded from the group of "nice" people that that first idea isn't true..?
> Would it be bad if a "bad boy" fantasy actually was widespread among women? *Are we denying it because it's not true or are we denying it out of fear that some would use that as an excuse to be rude and mean to others?*


Right. Especially the bolded part.



> Yeah, it definitely is a pacifist idea and I just happen to be a pacifist :b
> I'd hope people didn't consider me a "doormat" for that though :um
> 
> From your first reply in this thread, I got the impression you thought some people were "doormats", but I must have misread what you meant.
> Sorry about that.


Appreciate it. Being a pacifist doesn't imply weakness at all.  You're all good.


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## RoflSaurus (Feb 25, 2012)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


^ this. Sorry.


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## Marakunda (Jun 7, 2011)

Being nice is a personality trait, a positive one at that.
Why anyone would reject a guy because he's nice is beyond me.
Being nice isn't something I can control, it's who I am, a part of me. Someone who rejects you because of who you are isn't someone you should be in a relationship with in the first place, so forget about em in that case.

That being said, if you are faking being "nice". You're bad and you should feel bad.


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## Marakunda (Jun 7, 2011)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


For the record I don't agree with this, at least not in my case.
I'm NOT looking to impress anyone with my niceness, it's a trait of mine.
That's all.


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## fetisha (Jan 13, 2012)

Kollarbones said:


> THIS.
> 
> A lot of guys who call themselves 'nice guys' never are nice. I hate jerks. I don't know why guys always complain that girls just go for the *******s. I don't. At least I try not to. I always go for the nice ones. Personally there's nothing I find attractive about jerks. I do not like the whole 'chasing' idea, in fact I hate it. I like to know where I stand and cannot put up with the whole hard-to-get, popular, cocky kind of traits these guys have.


THIS


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## CrimsonTrigger (Jun 28, 2011)

So I took a break from this topic and came back to...this. I haven't read everything, but there are a few things that stick out to me

Yes, I agree that someone who is nice should not expect to get anything out of it just because they are nice. If that was the case, life would be a lot easier to live than it is now. Nobody should expect to be rewarded just because of a basic personality trait. 

Is niceness boring? I'm a nice person and even I can be turned off by overly nice behaviour. Someone who is nice all of the time seems to have a shallow range of emotion, which is just boring. Everyone needs to get sad or angry once in a while. Sometimes you do have to be a little rude to get your point across, as I've discovered from personal experience. 

I made this topic to promote a discussion. I don't personally believe that women automatically hate someone because they are nice and I'm not a confused and bitter "nice guy" who hates women just because they won't give me a chance. I do think that niceness can be a turn off if it is extreme or if someone expects to be rewarded because of it. 

I think if I was to meet a girl and she asked me to talk about myself, the last thing I would think of saying is "I'm nice" because that tells her nothing. There are lots of nice people in the world. I think people would rather know what sets me apart from all the other nice people instead of what I have in common with them.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

lol @ everyone +1'ing a myopic post instead of Ape in Space's, which is by far the most nuanced and accurate in the thread so far.


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## Nada (Dec 19, 2004)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


I'm bad to the bone, but people call me nice. I don't get it, people are so backwards.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Confidence is tempered with "niceness." 

When asking the question, you have to differentiate between "nice guys with low confidence" and "nice guys with an abundance of confidence"

Confidence isn't really the first trait guys look for in women, so we forget that it is a priority for women and simply ask about being "nice."


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't understand why these type of posts (women like bad boys, they hate good guys, women want status, women like buff guys) are made. It's particularly dumbfounding when the OP is a guy. 

Let's make this really simple. Go ask your father what he likes about his wife/ex-wife/GF, then ask you male neighbor, and then ask your friend. Make sure that they're not thinking of an _ideal/perfect_ woman, but what they'd want and be happy with IRL. Now compare those answers to your opinion. Are they different? Yes, most likely they are. Well guess what? It's the same with women. Eureka! Women don't all want the same thing! Wow, that's so ****ing surprising! I thought they were all simple creatures with the same wants and desires but they're not. 

Let's make this even simpler now! How about if you ask hetero women what they like in guys. What's that? A bunch of posters here have said they don't, in fact, like bad boys? Well, I guess that's more evidence for you that some women do like genuine nice guys.

Now let's allow this thread to die already! It's ridiculous and it's going NOWHERE.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

VanDamMan said:


> Confidence isn't really the first trait guys look for in women


It isn't what women are looking for in men either.

Look at all the violent, insecure alcoolics trying to pick up fights all the time to prove their alphaness who get women all the time.


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## Who (Jul 29, 2010)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.










You deserve an award.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Some women chase guys who are abusive, just because they aren't boring. 

Stability, to some women, is worse than having a drug addiction/being a psychopath/being violent or abusive.


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## Who (Jul 29, 2010)

WintersTale said:


> Some women chase guys who are abusive, just because they aren't boring.
> 
> Stability, to some women, is worse than having a drug addiction/being a psychopath/being violent or abusive.


What is this?
And you call youself an intellectual ...pfft


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Who said:


> What is this?
> And you call youself an intellectual ...pfft


You really think there aren't women like that out there? (And I don't mean one in a million; I mean a noticeable segment of society).

If not, that's quite a claim you're making, since it's not that hard to find women who _admit_ to thinking like WT described. Even on SAS.


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## CourtneyB (Jul 31, 2010)

I like nice guys... :con I just don't particularly care for ones with (seemingly) no backbone and let everyone walk all over them 24/7.


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## Who (Jul 29, 2010)

anomalous said:


> You really think there aren't women like that out there? (And I don't mean one in a million; I mean a noticeable segment of society).
> 
> If not, that's quite a claim you're making, since it's not that hard to find women who _admit_ to thinking like WT described. Even on SAS.


There are definitely women who are attracted to abusive/violent traits and drug addicts but to claim that they are attracted to them _simply because those guys aren't boring_ is ridiculous. These women who are attracted to abusive/violent guys are that way because they have personal issues with themselves and, in the case of drug addicts, it's because those are the type of guys who share their same bad habits/lifestyle which they could coexist with.



anomalous said:


> If not, that's quite a claim you're making, since it's not that hard to find women who _admit_ to thinking like WT described. Even on SAS.


Show me the ones on SAS. I'm interested in knowing.


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## factmonger (Aug 4, 2010)

rymo said:


> Wow..spot on. Perfectly said.
> 
> Girls do like nice guys. Guys who are genuinely nice but also aren't pushovers and can show them a good time. It's hard to be that kind of nice guy when you're a bitter, SA-fueled virgin (been there), but it's something to keep in mind when you are ticked off from your latest rejection. In other words, look at yourself first and how you can improve instead of throwing stones at society or the entire female race.


Spot on. You know what you're talking about :yes


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## alissaxvanity (Dec 26, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> I don't understand why these type of posts (women like bad boys, they hate good guys, women want status, women like buff guys) are made. It's particularly dumbfounding when the OP is a guy.
> 
> Let's make this really simple. Go ask your father what he likes about his wife/ex-wife/GF, then ask you male neighbor, and then ask your friend. Make sure that they're not thinking of an _ideal/perfect_ woman, but what they'd want and be happy with IRL. Now compare those answers to your opinion. Are they different? Yes, most likely they are. Well guess what? It's the same with women. Eureka! Women don't all want the same thing! Wow, that's so ****ing surprising! I thought they were all simple creatures with the same wants and desires but they're not.
> 
> ...


Be careful, you may shake the fabric of the world with these startling statements. (I mean this as sarcasm meant to support, just making sure)


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## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

hyejan said:


> i like a guy who's nice to me not a hero who's nice to all the girls...


Makes sense


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## elvin jones (Dec 12, 2011)

Because nice doesn't really nice anymore. In reality it has been warped to mean pushover, timid or awkward. Frequently people who describe themselves as being nice think they are entitled to sex just because of it and are angry at women and men who have success with women.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

AllToAll said:


> Eureka! Women don't all want the same thing! Wow, that's so ****ing surprising! I thought they were all simple creatures with the same wants and desires but they're not.
> ...
> Now let's allow this thread to die already! It's ridiculous and it's going NOWHERE.


I think your outrage might appear more persuasive if you hadn't (on the first page even) replied in favour of and agreeing with a post saying all guys who call themselves "nice" on these forums are actually manipulative jerks.
I'm surprised at how many in this tread are just that.

But of course it's true that women want a great many different things - there are a lot of different women in the world after all.
But all research still shows that both men and women do have quite significant patterns in how they choose. We're just, for some reason, not allowed to talk about those things.
I don't see a big problem in talking about the overall patterns, but whenever it gets to "All of X are like this" or calling people liars when they say they don't fit the stereotype, that's when there is a problem.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

alissaxvanity said:


> Be careful, you may shake the fabric of the world with these startling statements. (I mean this as sarcasm meant to support, just making sure)


:lol Don't worry. I've seen your posts and you seem smart/sensible enough to agree that these threads are just ridiculous.



Milco said:


> I think your outrage might appear more persuasive if you hadn't (on the first page even) replied in favour of and agreeing with a post saying all guys who call themselves "nice" on these forums are actually manipulative jerks.
> I'm surprised at how many in this tread are just that.
> 
> But of course it's true that women want a great many different things - there are a lot of different women in the world after all.
> ...


My outrage? No, what I did is called _hyperbolizing to prove a point_. I still agree with Paul's comment, but I don't think these threads are in any way productive or useful.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Seriously just let it die. I'm tired of all this to be quite honest, whether people see me as nice or manipulative, it doesn't really change a thing.


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## mzmz (Feb 26, 2012)

*Yes!*



Louis;1059855998 said:


> There's too much focus on being a nice guy rather than a good guy. A good guy is there when he says, works hard, will go out of his not only for a girl but for his buddies too. Being nice alone doesn't make you good, theres a lot of underhanded reasons for being nice and a lot of people put forward a fake personality to try and be something their not. When it comes right down to it whether your a jerk or nice what really matters is the stuff you do.


Couldn't have said it better myself- and this applys to both sexes

I would also like to mention that when the majority of the people you interact with "reject" you, its most likely NOT them. 
Its you. its YOUR issues.
Time to fix yrslf.

Also, when you point at somone else, you've got 3 fingers pointing back at YOU. Try it- it's a trip.


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## CrimsonTrigger (Jun 28, 2011)

Okay, clearly I shouldn't have made this topic. Let me state this again. I do NOT believe for a second that women as a whole don't actually like a guy who is nice. Everyone is different and likes different things. I only made this topic because I've heard so many guys on other websites complain about this. Notice what is so striking about this statement? It's obvious. None of the people who are saying this are women. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard a woman say she doesn't like a guy who is nice.

Maybe I should have worded the topic better to something like "Why don't guys _believe_ that women don't like nice guys" or whatever. I simply wanted to hear straight from women whether this is actually true or not, which I already knew it wasn't.

I think this was a mistake on my part and I didn't mean to cause any arguments or negativity here.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

AllToAll said:


> My outrage? No, what I did is called _hyperbolizing to prove a point_. I still agree with Paul's comment, but I don't think these threads are in any way productive or useful.


I know what you were doing, but my point is still that you're attacking others for making generalisations while supporting even more definitive generalisations yourself. It makes it seem rather insincere.

And how come these threads aren't productive? Could it be because people are derailing them with petty attacks in either direction instead of just explaining things in a calm and rational manner without belittling or putting down certain people/groups?


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## squidd (Feb 10, 2012)

From what I've seen every actual nice guy runs the risk of becoming a "Nice Guy" the difference being the Nice Guy and begins to see sex as something to be bargined for with their "nice" behaviour from what ever woman has been lucky enough to fall under his attention and whenever a woman does not acquiesce to the ideas in his head she becomes a "*****" or game playing "****" that only likes jerks or was stolen by that jerk (because a woman have an idea of her own? PREPOSTEROUS!). Basically I'm ****ing sick of it they're just another kind of jerk


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## CrimsonTrigger (Jun 28, 2011)

Milco said:


> I know what you were doing, but my point is still that you're attacking others for making generalisations while supporting even more definitive generalisations yourself. It makes it seem rather insincere.
> 
> And how come these threads aren't productive? *Could it be because people are derailing them with petty attacks in either direction instead of just explaining things in a calm and rational manner without belittling or putting down certain people/groups?*


Yes, thank you. It's hard to discuss topics like this on here because it always seems to offend someone, even though that isn't my intention. To say this topic is not productive isn't true because I clearly asked this question to gain more insight and understanding. Even if someone calmly explained that my question is factually wrong, I would have been fine with it because I would have gained new knowledge from it.


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## mzmz (Feb 26, 2012)

*um*



Skylaishot said:


> Being nice is a personality trait, a positive one at that.
> Why anyone would reject a guy because he's nice is beyond me.
> Being nice isn't something I can control, it's who I am, a part of me. Someone who rejects you because of who you are isn't someone you should be in a relationship with in the first place, so forget about em in that case.
> 
> That being said, if you are faking being "nice". You're bad and you should feel bad.


AWESOME response!:b


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

I don't understand this weird idea that people want sex in exchange for being nice. I don't think it's ever an exchange, if I have sympathetic feelings for people just as much as anyone else. Never have I asked a woman to have sex with me because I deserve it or that because I'm a good person. I don't see this ever occur maybe with someone else but personally I feel a little attacked by the fact that people are claiming others to be false int their intentions.

Also I see a lot of people complimenting each other in this thread for something that has already been said countless times and in the end nothing new comes up besides the idea that people who lack confidence do not care for anything about another person besides sex, yes sex is something that is natural and is part of our nature, but to make such generalizations of people is really harsh.

Also:

COME AT BRO! I'm tired of hearing all this BS.

Also this apply this theory to the same sex: Why am I at all nice to my friends? Why do I bother cheering them up? (Personally I dislike seeing them unhappy) Why do I always try to be there when someone needs to talk, why do I compliment them? I'm not seeking homosexual relationships with anyone I trust or care for. So I really dislike how the majority are treating people just based on their "status" Yeah I lack self confidence and I'm the most reliable person at times but does really make me insensitive?


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## squidd (Feb 10, 2012)

Dissonance said:


> I don't understand this weird idea that people want sex in exchange for being nice. I don't think it's ever an exchange, if I have sympathetic feelings for people just as much as anyone else. Never have I asked a woman to have sex with me because I deserve it or that because I'm a good person. I don't see this ever occur maybe with someone else but personally I feel a little attacked by the fact that people are claiming others to be false int their intentions.
> 
> Also I see a lot of people complimenting each other in this thread for something that has already been said countless times and in the end nothing new comes up besides the idea that people who lack confidence do not care for anything about another person besides sex, yes sex is something that is natural and is part of our nature, but to make such generalizations of people is really harsh.
> 
> ...


Yes my comment was a genarlisation, all I said was that it was a risk that nice guys run. You may not have seen it but I have, many times before guys that use the appearance of decent human behaviour to manipulate women to gain what they feel they're owed, and doing so sows the seeds of mistrust of any one that is a genuinely nice person. Of course this doesn't really affect me as I myself am a complete and utter **** :yes


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

squidd said:


> Yes my comment was a genarlisation, all I said was that it was a risk that nice guys run. You may not have seen it but I have, many times before guys that use the appearance of decent human behaviour to manipulate women to gain what they feel they're owed, and doing so sows the seeds of mistrust of any one that is a genuinely nice person. Of course this doesn't really affect me as I myself am a complete and utter **** :yes


Yes it was generalization, I'm pissed off by the generalization that everyone has generally agreed on at this point. So making a generalization that all people that call themselves nice are actually fakers? I don't go everywhere telling people I'm nice, but I like to consider myself to be mild mannered until things set me off, to a degree I would say there is good in every person as well as bad. Sometimes we do feel bitter, I do I saw many times where I felt my feelings were betrayed, not because I felt they belong to me but it's kind of a hard thing to take in when the person you thought you deeply care about does not care for you as much as you thought they would, it's not a "I deserve sex", it's the idea that I believed there was a connection between the person I'm speaking to. But then I don't know when a person legitimately likes me or is just being nice so it's a rather large guessing game, a game that if you aren't sure in the other person's feelings you could hurt yourself in the process. Yes I myself suffer from withdrawal at times because I thought someone "liked" me and I inch away from that person slowly, but that doesn't mean I'm going to treat them differently forever, it's like poking yourself with a needle, and it only hurts more the more you try to play it off like it doesn't affect you at all.


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## Witan (Jun 13, 2009)

Dissonance said:


> Seriously just let it die. I'm tired of all this to be quite honest, whether people see me as nice or manipulative, it doesn't really change a thing.


I second this. I wish this forum had a "sage" function, because it's bothering me that I'm bumping this thread just by posting this.


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## _AJ_ (Jan 23, 2008)

nice guys come out last cause they so nice that they help the other guys win!


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Milco said:


> I know what you were doing, but my point is still that you're attacking others for making generalisations while supporting even more definitive generalisations yourself. It makes it seem rather insincere.
> 
> And how come these threads aren't productive? Could it be because people are derailing them with petty attacks in either direction instead of just explaining things in a calm and rational manner without belittling or putting down certain people/groups?


I don't think it's a generalization because guys who pity themselves because they're alone and are also self-proclaimed nice guys do tend to be the complete opposite. I'm not saying it's definite for everyone, which I'm going to assume you missed.

Really? That's why the thread is unproductive? Please explain to me then how this thread is getting anyone anything. Whose mind has been opened to new ideas since the conception of it? And while you're at it tell me who's belittling/putting down groups.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

AllToAll said:


> I don't think it's a generalization because guys who pity themselves because they're alone and are also self-proclaimed nice guys do tend to be the complete opposite. I'm not saying it's definite for everyone, which I'm going to assume you missed.
> 
> Really? That's why the thread is unproductive? Please explain to me then how this thread is getting anyone anything. Whose mind has been opened to new ideas since the conception of it? And while you're at it tell me who's belittling/putting down groups.


So basically, it's not a generalisation because it's the truth?
I'm not sure that's stopping making the generalisation.

You're right that what I had in mind when I wrote "more definitive generalisation" was you agreeing with this, which you reiterated that you agreed with in a later post:


Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are.


But I did see that you wrote in another post that it wasn't everybody that were that way:


AllToAll said:


> It's okay if you think you're a nice guy. Just because you're taking it personally doesn't mean that there's not a great amount of self-proclaimed nice guys who are actually self-deserving, narcissistic, mama's boys who expect women to treat them like gods.


I know that people like that exist, but even based on this comment, I would still say you're generalising and insinuating quite a bit.
OP doesn't put a qualifier in his post, so whether "women" means "some women" or "all women" is up for interpretation. If he meant "all women" then he is of course completely wrong, but if he only meant "some women" then your posts are going a lot further than his was in the berating of others.

I can't answer your first two questions since we already agree that the thread has been derailed; so the things you're asking me to find aren't here.
I was simply asking if perhaps the reason for that were the types of replies made.
To see who's putting down others, try reading the thread again, and read Ape in space's reply about insinuations; Insinuations that many in this thread have replied saying they agree with.
I'm just asking if we could talk about these things without calling groups of people manipulative, unattractive or both, simply for having confidence issues while still thinking of themselves as being nice towards others.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Milco said:


> So basically, it's not a generalisation because it's the truth?
> I'm not sure that's stopping making the generalisation.
> 
> You're right that what I had in mind when I wrote "more definitive generalisation" was you agreeing with this, which you reiterated that you agreed with in a later post:
> ...


No, saying that everyone is X, is a generalization. Stating that a good part tend to be X, is not.

The thread didn't need to be derailed to be unproductive. The topic never gets to a conclusion and the comments that arise are generally futile.

If we could start by simply not making generalizations on gender (with as simple a thing as not making a thread about how all women X or all men Y) perhaps people wouldn't resolve to that.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

AllToAll said:


> No, saying that everyone is X, is a generalization. Stating that a good part tend to be X, is not.
> ...
> If we could start by simply not making generalizations on gender (with as simple a thing as not making a thread about how all women X or all men Y) perhaps people wouldn't resolve to that.


No, that's not how generalisations work. Only very extreme generalisations would say that it applies to each and all.
It's very much possible to make both generalising and insulting comments while not saying it applies to everyone.
_"Why are most men so stupid?"_ would be one such example.
And again, I don't think OP meant to say all women hate nice guys, but I don't know.
I do know though that a poster replied that all guys who called themselves nice on these forums were not and that many people replied favourably to that; you did twice as well, though you also made that other remark.


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## TigerRifle1 (Jan 25, 2012)

I fake being nice. But its to avoid conflict, not get me anywhere with women.


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## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Milco said:


> No, that's not how generalisations work. Only very extreme generalisations would say that it applies to each and all.
> It's very much possible to make both generalising and insulting comments while not saying it applies to everyone.
> _"Why are most men so stupid?"_ would be one such example.
> And again, I don't think OP meant to say all women hate nice guys, but I don't know.
> I do know though that a poster replied that all guys who called themselves nice on these forums were not and that many people replied favourably to that; you did twice as well, though you also made that other remark.


You say tomato, I say tomato (that saying makes no sense written).

I don't see where you're going with your posts anymore. I still stand by the fact that threads generalizing MEN and WOMEN are fruitless. And I still stand by what I said about self-proclaimed nice guys regardless of whether or not you believe it's a generalization.

Good effin night


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

If that's the case why bother.


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## mzmz (Feb 26, 2012)

this thread is no longer about men or woman and relations between the two having gotton so bad its about generalizations and why im right and your wrong or your right and i'm wrong...or something.....


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

mzmz said:


> this thread is no longer about men or woman and relations between the two having gotton so bad its about generalizations and why im right and your wrong or your right and i'm wrong...or something.....


Because this is the root of the problem the idea of people have already made up their mind of a person based on ideas they have designed for themselves, an excuse. It's as if it was okay to think all African Americans are on wealth fare, it's an absurd idea.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

mzmz said:


> this thread is no longer about men or woman and relations between the two having gotton so bad its about generalizations and why im right and your wrong or your right and i'm wrong...or something.....


It just bugs me when people get upset with what they see as negative generalisations, but choose to respond to it with negative generalisations of their own.
That needs to be pointed out.
I haven't counted, but it seems like ~10-12 people in this thread have replied saying they agree that _"all self-proclaimed nice guys on this forum actually aren't nice at all"_, and these comments are made by regular posters even.
Compare this to if somebody wrote _"all girls on this forum who claim to like shy guys actually don't"_ and the furore that comment would spark, even though that arguably is less personally insulting of the people in question.

The bottom line is really just that these generalisations shouldn't be made and that we shouldn't deny people their identity in these ways. But there sadly does seem to be a bias where some generalisations are still widely accepted.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Milco said:


> It just bugs me when people get upset with what they see as negative generalisations, but choose to respond to it with negative generalisations of their own.
> That needs to be pointed out.
> I haven't counted, but it seems like ~10-12 people in this thread have replied saying they agree that _"all self-proclaimed nice guys on this forum actually aren't nice at all"_, and these comments are made by regular posters even.
> Compare this to if somebody wrote _"all girls on this forum who claim to like shy guys actually don't"_ and the furore that comment would spark, even though that arguably is less personally insulting of the people in question.
> ...


It also sounds rather hypocritical once you say it that way, for others to be upset of other people making generalizations but then turning around and making generalizations about the opposite gender of your own, it makes you no better then the poster or other people who make generalizations.


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## thankyouberry (Aug 11, 2011)

Um... I like nice guys but not every nice guy. Just like I don't like every smart person and not every item that is green although I value smartness in theory and green is my favorite color. 

There are a lot of nice people.


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## To22 (Apr 6, 2012)

Haha here I am to save the day. :yay I couldn't find my favorite one. It was from a very intelligent woman and she nailed it! It tooked me a while to find these so YOU BETTER FKN APPRECIATE! I think the women will love the one with the woman and oooh I wish I could find my favorite ugghh


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are. They emulate nice behavior for the purpose of earning points which they demand to cash in, and become increasingly resentful when they can't force a woman to like them with the "nice" tokens.


Are you saying that "being nice" isn't just an act, it's a sign of genuineness?


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Dissonance said:


> It also sounds rather hypocritical once you say it that way, for others to be upset of other people making generalizations but then turning around and making generalizations about the opposite gender of your own, it makes you no better then the poster or other people who make generalizations.


If you've been around here for long, you know that's the first rule of this subforum:

Generalizations about women = bad, usually result in thread closure

Generalizations about SA men and their never-ending string of ulterior motives = good, necessary, to be applauded with dozens of nauseatingly weak-minded head-nod smileys and +1 replies


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## Frunktubulus (Jan 8, 2012)

I wanna know what it is self-proclaimed 'nice guys' think is so nice about them compared to other guys. Most of the guys I know in relationships are exceptionally decent people.


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## Daft (Jan 5, 2012)

While I don't think "girls hate nice guys" is at all accurate taken at face value, I have sometimes been surprised at what kinds of guys wind up single for long periods and what kinds of guys wind up with crowds of girls because I've seen some quality picks in the former and some pretty rotten ones in the latter. Mine was ignored or played pretty much his entire life until I came along, and he's not even spineless. :stu

Ladies, y'all weird sometimes.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Daft said:


> While I don't think "girls hate nice guys" is at all accurate taken at face value, I have sometimes been surprised at what kinds of guys wind up single for long periods and what kinds of guys wind up with crowds of girls because I've seen some quality picks in the former and some pretty rotten ones in the latter.* Mine was ignored or played pretty much his entire life until I came along, and he's not even spineless*. :stu
> 
> Ladies, y'all weird sometimes.


You confuse me....what are you going on about here?

In fact I don't think any of that makes sense to be honest.


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## Daft (Jan 5, 2012)

Dissonance said:


> You confuse me....what are you going on about here?
> 
> In fact I don't think any of that makes sense to be honest.


It's an extension of the statement that I've seen some quality guys go without for reasons indeterminable.


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## Dissonance (Dec 27, 2011)

Daft said:


> It's an extension of the statement that I've seen some quality guys go without for reasons indeterminable.


Oh well yeah.I wouldn't mind being hit on by any girl, women just go for people with a higher level of attraction, that's simply how they behave.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Because niceness = weakness

You'll rarely see a bully without a girlfriend.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

heroin said:


> Because niceness = weakness
> 
> You'll rarely see a bully without a girlfriend.


Probably very true.


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## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

I blame all my lack of lustful encounters on the fact that I'm too nice a guy. That, or maybe I have SA and esteem issues. I confuse things now and again.


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## Winds (Apr 17, 2011)

The nice guy debate rarely takes into account attraction. When I see guys talk about women not liking nice guys it usually from the point of "I was nice to her, that should be enough". It may not be how the person truly feels, but that is the vibe I tend to get from it. Most discussions ignore incompatibility, physical and emotional attraction, along with a ton of other things. Also let's face it guys women(ok people :kma ) are strange creatures and they could have a 1001 rational and irrational reason why they might not like a particular nice guy, none of which at the end may have anything to do with the fact that he is nice. I think one of my favorite bloggers summed up I feel about this topic perfectly.

"So how does the Mr. Nice Guy win today? That's simple. He changes his attitude.

*He goes into dating situations knowing that women are at different places on the needs-wants-values continuum and acknowledging incompatibility is part of finding the one he'll be most compatible with. He understands that just because he plays by the rules doesn't mean he should win*; and if he keeps losing, he needs to go back to the drawing board and look at why he has a bunch of ribbons but no trophies. *But most importantly, he doesn't get discouraged by the "success" of the ahole. He just accepts that if that's the type of man she wanted, she wasn't the one for him to begin with, and vice versa.*
It was when I had that realization that things turned around for me. I started running my own race and women started popping up like gophers at the arcade. No women were bopped over the head in the making of this man.

So when it comes down to it, it's not about nice guys (or girls) finishing last. It's about nice guys not finishing until she does. Well, that and not worrying about finishing in last place when it comes to love. *If you approach dating as a learning experience, you'll get to the finish line when you're supposed to. Don't lose yourself trying to excessively be someone for somebody that doesn't want and isn't right for you. Be a good person free of labels.* And if you can't do that, you need some more training before you step up to the starting line."


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## Watercoulour (Jul 24, 2011)

Nice guys?
Well, i think thats rather broad.

But i dont like it when a guy gives me all their attention right when we meet. It just turns me off. I also don't like flirting 24/7, not saying all guys do, but some of whom i meet tend to do that. I feel awkward because I don't like them that way OR I don't know them. Not saying im a prude or anything, its just I like normal conversations and when people flirt with me, it makes me feel like they're being clingy- which is a turn off. Does that make any sense?

And well I like when a guy gives me a lot of attention, _if i have a relationship with him_. And I like flirting with guys im _interested _in ^^


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## iBlaze (Nov 1, 2011)

I think us men here go for the superficial, 8/10, 9/10 girls and get rejected for not being a jackoff douche. That's what those preppy, *****y women want, so we get this stigma in our minds that that is what ALL women want. We don't give the regular girls a chance, we seek physical perfection, and that's just not how it works.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

iBlaze said:


> I think us men here go for the superficial, 8/10, 9/10 girls and get rejected for not being a jackoff douche. That's what those preppy, *****y women want, so we get this stigma in our minds that that is what ALL women want. We don't give the regular girls a chance, we seek physical perfection, and that's just not how it works.


Speak for yourself. I've had a girl interested in me whose waist was at least four times wider than my own. So nowhere close to 8 9 or whatever. I'd still have gone out with her. But I am too shy/proud to ask someone out. And she didn't want to ask either. So it went nowhere.

I am not nice at all, even in the good way, but I am kinda shy and my ego is pretty fragile.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

iBlaze said:


> I think us men here go for the superficial, 8/10, 9/10 girls and get rejected for not being a jackoff douche. That's what those preppy, *****y women want, so we get this stigma in our minds that that is what ALL women want. We don't give the regular girls a chance, we seek physical perfection, and that's just not how it works.


This is one of many empty platitudes I regularly see in this discussion that sounds great on its surface, and gets lots of head nods when you say it, but isn't exactly accurate in my experience. It happens quite frequently with average-looking girls, too. If only the 8s and 9s acted this way (in general), I don't even think guys would spend so much time complaining about it. It's only because guys who are even slightly passive and mild-mannered are so scorned by the _majority_ of girls -- supermodels or not -- that this is a chronic discussion on here.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

anomalous said:


> It's only because guys who are even slightly passive and mild-mannered are so scorned by the _majority_ of girls -- supermodels or not -- that this is a chronic discussion on here.


+1

There is another thread just a few threads below this one where a girl is having second thoughts about dating a guy because he turned out to be more shy and awkward than she expected. It's her choice whether to date him and all that. But I would be willing to put money on her not being a supermodel.

This argument about dateless guys chasing extremely beautiful women is complete bunk.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

heroin said:


> +1
> 
> There is another thread just a few threads below this one where a girl is having second thoughts about dating a guy because he turned out to be more shy and awkward than she expected. It's her choice whether to date him and all that. But I would be willing to put money on her not being a supermodel.
> 
> This argument about dateless guys chasing extremely beautiful women is complete bunk.


Exactly. TBH, reading posts like hers is all it takes to remind me that I'm truly better off not pursuing dating or relationships, on the odd day I get the crazy idea otherwise. I'm not even blaming her for anything or singling her out; it's just reality. A man cannot afford to show weakness or passivity in any form, even when the woman he's pursuing is equally or more shy herself.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

It's true to an extent beautiful girls usually go for the *******s. I've rarely, if ever, saw an ugly woman complain about all guys being jerks.

I've brought this example once, I'll bring it again.

Say you are a tennis player and live in a small town. Suppose you can easily beat everyone in town, you wouldn't find it gratifying to beat them, considering it's so easy.. right? You would be bored to death.

Now suppose a dominant tennis player, like you, from another small town, visits yours. You'd probably be interested in playing against him, right?

The answer is most likely yes. Because it would be rewarding on a personal ego level because this guy is really good too. YET, your previous success brings you enough confidence to believe in your capacity to beat him.

The point I'm bringing is - beautiful women know they can get 99% of guys to suck on their toes without lifting a finger. So obviously, they'll go after the high status men or the untameable jerks because they are a real challenge. And they (the men concerned) are in a position to bring them personal gratification because they are so unaccessible or in demand.


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## Syndacus (Aug 9, 2011)

Nice guys tend to be insecure, clingy *******s who will resort to controlling their women, acting violent, and being emotionally unstable. Independent nice guys who can turn down a woman, and have that woman chasing him around just because she sees us as a bad boy.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Syndacus said:


> Nice guys tend to be insecure, clingy *******s who will resort to controlling their women, acting violent, and being emotionally unstable. Independent nice guys who can turn down a woman, and have that woman chasing him around just because she sees us as a bad boy.


Being cool and aloof doesn't work. I turned down several booty calls from a girl I hooked up previously a few times. I had given her a chance before. But she wasn't doing anything for me sexually and I don't think she ever was going to (of couse I never told her that). And then she never called/texted me for like 3 weeks. And then when I texted her wishing her a happy 420 as a friendly gesture and starting conversation with her, she was being very cold/distant with me. 1/2 word responses. If you don't show enough interest in a girl, she's going to get sore. "Oh yeah I totally get hot and bothered and wet in the knickers when a guy doesn't show much interest in me." Yeah doesn't work like that. lol.


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## OldSchoolSkater (Jun 3, 2011)

Everyone, I'm pretty sure there are several other threads exactly like this out there.


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## Syndacus (Aug 9, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> Being cool and aloof doesn't work. I turned down several booty calls from a girl I hooked up previously a few times. I had given her a chance before. But she wasn't doing anything for me sexually and I don't think she ever was going to (of couse I never told her that). And then she never called/texted me for like 3 weeks. And then when I texted her wishing her a happy 420 as a friendly gesture and starting conversation with her, she was being very cold/distant with me. 1/2 word responses. If you don't show enough interest in a girl, she's going to get sore. "Oh yeah I totally get hot and bothered and wet in the knickers when a guy doesn't show much interest in me." Yeah doesn't work like that. lol.


To each their own...because some women can be just as aloof and dumb as men are...they just fall for the hard to get types and keep on trying, and I'm trying to run far away from that crap.


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## Bunyip (Feb 6, 2012)

Whether or not I like someone cannot be isolated into whether or not they are _nice_. So sometimes I like a guy who is 'nice', and sometimes I will not like a guy who is just as nice as the guy I like. The same applies to 'bad boys' or any other kind of characterization. I am attracted to certain individuals, not whatever stereotypes a select few parts of their personality have categorized them into. I damned well hope that most people feel the same way.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

Syndacus said:


> To each their own...because some women can be just as aloof and dumb as men are...they just fall for the hard to get types and keep on trying, and I'm trying to run far away from that crap.


Also from my experience, confidence is not mandatory. But it would improve the quality of one's dating life significantly (confidence, not arrogance). For me, it's a challenge just to put myself back out there or if I do, ask a girl for her number. Because it's hard for me to tell, especially with shy girls, if I have built enough rapport with a girl to know if the time is right. I only seem to figure it out when a girl is very forward that she is interested.

When your social skills are so impaired and when your social anxiety is so debilitating, talking to girls, dating and even socializing with people can be so intimidating that you just want to crawl into a hole and die. I feel like I'm so far away from where I should be that I lose the motivation to keep putting myself out there, keep practising and keep learning. I can't just go to a bar and talk to random girls. Because all it would take is one girl to react rudely to me and it would crush me mentally. And as much as I feel the social pressure to seek it as a guy, I don't think I can do casual sex. It's too stressful and leaves me too vulnerable. And online dating can be demoralizing when girls don't reply or when they half-*** their correspodence with you.


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## Syndacus (Aug 9, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> Also from my experience, confidence is not mandatory. But it would improve the quality of one's dating life significantly (confidence, not arrogance). For me, it's a challenge just to put myself back out there or if I do, ask a girl for her number. Because it's hard for me to tell, especially with shy girls, if I have built enough rapport with a girl to know if the time is right. I only seem to figure it out when a girl is very forward that she is interested.
> 
> When your social skills are so impaired and when your social anxiety is so debilitating, talking to girls, dating and even socializing with people can be so intimidating that you just want to crawl into a hole and die. I feel like I'm so far away from where I should be that I lose the motivation to keep putting myself out there, keep practising and keep learning. I can't just go to a bar and talk to random girls. Because all it would take is one girl to react rudely to me and it would crush me mentally. And online dating can be demoralizing when girls don't reply or when they half-*** their correspodence with you.


The one day I stopped chasing after them, and just concentrated on myself was when a girl asked me for my number. And knowing me and my wary nature of people, I gave her a wrong number. I saw her again next time and she told me I gave her the wrong number, but the fact she saw my face again and asked me for the real number I gave it to her. We're now 2 months together.


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## garycoleman (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm a nice guy and my g/f likes me. 

She waited a long time for me to have the courage to give her our first kiss. The day after our first kiss she got aggressive with me by pulling me in and french kissing me. It was so hot and in disbelief because it was the first time I was french kissed.


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## mzmz (Feb 26, 2012)

Dissonance said:


> Oh well yeah.I wouldn't mind being hit on by any girl, women just go for people with a higher level of attraction, that's simply how they behave.


wow after watching that im ashamed to be a woman..i HOPE im not like that but now i wonder if i am...


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## squidlette (Jan 9, 2012)




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## _AJ_ (Jan 23, 2008)

mzmz said:


> wow after watching that im ashamed to be a woman..i HOPE im not like that but now i wonder if i am...


the study shown there is inaccurate because the women dont get to meet the guys.

So if all you have to go on is how they look and how much money they make, then obviously you decide based on that


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## To22 (Apr 6, 2012)

RiversEdge said:


> Who, for anyone, in their right mind wouldn't like someone nice??
> 
> If someone doesn't like a guy, it's not because they are nice, they just don't find you attractive or are interested in someone else.
> Let it go and find someone who does like you.


Yep, I can't understand why someone would think being nice was ever a negative =/ Nice has nothing to do with it. I think the culmination of the videos I posted pretty much explains this whole deal perfectly. This whole idea is irritating me. If she doesn't like you it's because you gave off bad vibes or she just doesn't like you...every woman wants a nice man even if he is a bad boy..that isn't to say he can't treat her right.

Nice is not:
being a push over
compromising yourself
being a "yes man"
being too afraid to take risk and speak your mind


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

the simple answer of it is men are not naturally wired to be "nice." This is a feminine trait, and guys who display overt signs of "niceness" stray further away from the masculine ideal which women are programmed to be attracted to.

Women have an inherent tend and befriend, nurturing biology, while men on the other hand have a very competitive drive. Niceness does not fit into these standards. Niceness contrasts with more dominant traits.

This standard goes for women too. Most men are attracted to submissive women. Feminine traits, intuitive, sensitive, loving, passive ,etc

It's all in gender identity, for example descriptive traits below

WORDS COMMONLY USED TO DESCRIBE FEMININITY
dependent
emotional
passive
sensitive
quiet
graceful
innocent
weak
flirtatious
nurturing
self-critical
soft
sexually submissive
accepting
WORDS COMMONLY USED TO DESCRIBE MASCULINITY
independent
non-emotional
aggressive
tough-skinned
competitive
clumsy
experienced
strong
active
self-confident
hard
sexually aggressive
rebellious

We don't want another woman after all...

Guys, we wouldn't expect you to want a butch, aggressive female...


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

A lot of the time the "nice guy" thing is fake. I am a genuinely nice guy. But sometimes I tend to bend over backwards too much for women (fake nice guy) because I am too afraid of losing the girl if I assert myself. A truly confident guy would be like "hey, I'm not going to put up with your crap. I'm out of here. See ya." It's hard for me to do that because my low self-esteem tells me that I can't do a whole lot better. Plus I bet if I did what I wanted 100% of the time, I probably wouldn't have any sort of success at all. You have to be willing to compromise to a degree.



calichick said:


> the simple answer of it is men are not naturally wired to be "nice." This is a feminine trait, and guys who display overt signs of "niceness" stray further away from the masculine ideal which women are programmed to be attracted to.
> 
> Women have an inherent tend and befriend, nurturing biology, while men on the other hand have a very competitive drive. Niceness does not fit into these standards. Niceness contrasts with more dominant traits.
> 
> ...


Oh no, not this psuedo-science. If a male displays too many "masculine traits", guess what? He's going to be a loner. True alpha males throughout history needed strong inter-personal skills in order to gain the respect of their peers (that means you have to be nice and befriend. But still be firm), lead, form alliances, etc. Being an alpha male is not about pure dominance and aggression. You have to be willing to negotiate, compromise, influence, etc. If you put a stereotypical rebel-without-a-cause badboy in The Hunger Games, he would get killed so fast. Notice how the alpha male bad guy in the movie formed an alliance to get as far as he did.


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## RiversEdge (Aug 21, 2011)

Theologic said:


> Yep, I can't understand why someone would think being nice was ever a negative =/ Nice has nothing to do with it. I think the culmination of the videos I posted pretty much explains this whole deal perfectly. This whole idea is irritating me. If she doesn't like you it's because you gave off bad vibes or she just doesn't like you...every woman wants a nice man even if he is a bad boy..that isn't to say he can't treat her right.
> 
> Nice is not:
> being a push over
> ...


THANK YOU :clap

I hope everyone reads this.


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## calichick (Jul 30, 2010)

phoenixwright said:


> Oh no, not this psuedo-science. *If a male displays too many "masculine traits", guess what? *He's going to be a loner. True alpha males throughout history needed strong inter-personal skills in order to gain the respect of their peers (that means you have to be nice and befriend. But still be firm), lead, form alliances, etc. Being an alpha male is not about pure dominance and aggression. You have to be willing to negotiate, compromise, influence, etc. If you put a stereotypical rebel-without-a-cause badboy in The Hunger Games, he would get killed so fast. Notice how the alpha male bad guy in the movie formed an alliance to get as far as he did.


well no duh, the point I was getting at was it's about a balance.

This topic was about nice guys, which infers that said guy is characterized predominantly by the nice trait, which would make him have a greater feminine balance to his personality.

such as

75% feminine traits + 25% masculine traits = Feminine dominated personality
50% feminine traits + 50% masculine traits = Genderless personality
*25% feminine traits + 75% masculine traits = Masculine dominated personality
*
I believe that attraction is primarily rooted in a balance that is tipped in favor of masculine traits, because THATS what draws a solid line between the two gender identities.

Notice my post_ "stray further away from the masculine ideal which women are programmed to be attracted to."_

It's all about a (unequal) balance, and the more you adopt feminine traits (TOO sensitive, TOO nice, TOO weak, TOO soft, TOO submissive), the more you stray from having the perfect combination.

Of course most women don't want the 100% masculine, because even a guy needs a touch of feminine in order to relate to a female.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

I just found out that this girl I used to have a crush on back in college is now dating this unattractive, totally un-alpha asian guy (not saying that asian guys are inherently un-masculine/un-alpha but he fits the stereotype). And I have an un-alpha asian male friend, who has a girlfriend. I look at what goes down in real life and I look at what people say on SAS and I just laugh.

The core problem is not that we are "nice guys". Or not "alpha" or whatever the hell you want to call it. The problem is that we struggle to relate/connect with other people. And we are too timid to progress things with a girl.

Relating/connecting with women for me I think is the bigger issue of the two for me specifically (timidness is where it starts though. Mustering up the courage to talk). Sometimes I get over the fear and I go talk to a girl. But then there's no spark/chemistry (on both our parts) when we talk. It's frustrating. Messaging girls or approaching girls in real-life then feels like a waste of time and I feel unmotivated.


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## andy0128 (Dec 19, 2003)

Couldn't be bothered reading the whole thread, but i disagree that women don't like nice guys. Unfortunately you can't just assume that being nice will guarantee you getting and keeping a girlfriend. That said there is a difference between being nice and completely letting the other person walk all over you, doing what they want all the time and just generally being clingy and sucking up to them. This is just my opinion, but it's a turnoff for women when guys are too much like that.


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## reynoso16 (Sep 14, 2012)

I personally find nice/nerdy guys hot,but I've seen women talk about how they think nice guys are "p*ssies" but at the same time those women are never in a stable relationship so Im not sure about how great their judgement is,lol


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## James_Russell (Aug 26, 2011)




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## Furious Ming (Dec 13, 2011)

Anyone who doesn't like nice people of either gender has ****ing mental issues.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Why would you bump this? Ugh!

And guys generally fall into three categories:

"Nice" Guys | Good Guys | A-Holes

What is the difference between a "nice" guy, and a good guy? Well, nice guys typically are fake, pretending to be nice to get into a girl's pants. They don't have morals, they don't really respect women, and they generally are uncaring *******s underneath it all. They also have low self esteem, and feel like the way they treat someone entitles them to love/sex/relationships.

A good guy is just...good. No matter what. No matter how people treat him, no matter what he wants in life. He is kind to strangers, he is respectful, he has good morals, he has intelligence, he treats women with respect. He also generally has higher self esteem, because he doesn't let people walk all over him, and he doesn't treat people poorly.

The A-Hole...I don't need to describe this guy. However, women generally go for the extreme right or the left. They generally don't pick the *******s with low self esteem, unless they are desperate.


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## Lone-Wolf (Mar 2, 2011)

Furious Ming said:


> Anyone who doesn't like nice people of either gender has ****ing mental issues.


Uh i think it's pretty hard to tell if there lying or not until you realize alot of nice guys are actually NOT.


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## DiceOfDiscord (Sep 9, 2012)

I really like nice guys. They tend to be more open-minded and that _alone_ makes me feel good when I'm around them. But I think sometimes nice people in general make me feel guilty because I don't make as much of an effort to be a good person.


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## hypestyle (Nov 12, 2003)

I just hope I can finally get a girlfriend by next year. I don't want to star in my own Steve Carell film.

it sucks to be a king of platonic admiration, but have absolutely no experience in intimacy...


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## LoneLioness (Nov 16, 2003)

Some girls do, generally not the bimbo types most of the types of guys who start these threads go for though.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

LoneLioness said:


> Some girls do, generally not the bimbo types most of the types of guys who start these threads go for though.


What makes you say those guys go for bimbos?


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## awkwardsilent (Jun 14, 2012)

Nice is part of the package. My general preference for personality type is Sweet and Dorky... it makes my heart go pitterpat in a millisecond. I just haven't found any Sweet Dorky guys who like a non-fancy dancy fat chick like me yet :-D Someday... Someday...


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

WintersTale said:


> What is the difference between a "nice" guy, and a good guy? Well, nice guys typically are fake, pretending to be nice to get into a girl's pants. They don't have morals, they don't really respect women, and they generally are uncaring *******s underneath it all. They also have low self esteem, and feel like the way they treat someone entitles them to love/sex/relationships.


Guess what? You're wrong.

THIS type of nice guy is just a.. legit nice guy.

He just doesn't know anything about the male/female attraction. He does kind things because he 'wants' the women to notice him, how he treats her much better than men around her.

He wants to be loved, and to be in a serious relationship (Myth: He doesn't hate women, he doesn't want to screw them over).

Nice guys are not manipulators, *******s are. Those nice guys may wind up bitter because of their lack of success because, yes, more often than not, they will be friend-zoned.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

TPower said:


> Guess what? You're wrong.
> 
> THIS type of nice guy is just a.. legit nice guy.
> 
> ...


Well if being nice will make women unattached to you, then what would be the point of seeking long-term relationships in the first place? I want a girlfriend that enjoys being appreciated, pleased, pampered and spoiled and who has a desire to do the same for her man. I've no desire in being a jackass to a woman or feel like I have to withhold emotions or displays of affection out of worry that she might lose respect for me as a man or whatever. Your most recent gf dumped you for not being affectionate enough. Some food for thought.


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## TPower (Feb 3, 2011)

phoenixwright said:


> Well if being nice will make women unattached to you, then what would be the point of seeking long-term relationships in the first place? I want a girlfriend that enjoys being appreciated, pleased, pampered and spoiled and who has a desire to do the same for her man. I've no desire in being a jackass to a woman or feel like I have to withhold emotions or displays of affection out of worry that she might lose respect for me as a man or whatever. Your most recent gf dumped you for not being affectionate enough. Some food for thought.


Ya.. but she took me back.

Ironically, I feel WintersTale fits the 'nice guy' description (mine, not his).

Saying nice guys hate women is a myth. Like the 'short man syndrome' myth. Short men are picked on and taken less seriously all their lives, so logically, they'll usually end up bitter and with a short fuse, and not just because they're trying to overcompensate. Same thing if you're a 'nice guy' who's always in the friend-zone -- you'll most likely end up bitter towards women in general.


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## SnowFlakesFire (Aug 23, 2012)

Because only jerks seems to be sense of humor and livable imagination. Gimme a nice guy who is fun and I will marry him.

Oh well... I know there is nice guys with awesome sense of humor but... I have seen that humor get me together with jerks :sus


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## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

Paul said:


> If there's one thing I've learned from SAS, it's that guys who call themselves "nice guys" never are.


I think this is true. Not just on here either. So many guys claim to be nice and in fact aren't. I'm sure women can be the same. 
But I know from experience. My ex husband is this way. I see him post all kinds of bull**** on his Facebook. Making him seem like such a kind, understanding guy. Makes me wanna vomit every time I see it. He puts on a great act for awhile. Making him seem like a good person. His sister is the same way! Then you really get to know them and you find out they're horrible people. But they have a lot of people fooled. Until they Marry them or date them and they see their true side.


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## CrimsonTrigger (Jun 28, 2011)

Why the hell do people on this site feel the need to resurrect old threads like this? I get it. I ****ed up asking this question. I think I've been torn apart enough. My question was already answered a long time ago. Just let this **** die already.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

*** Thread Lock ***

*Closed at OP's request.*


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