# Don't go to U of T



## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Hey everyone, especially Canadians

Don't go to U of T (the University of Toronto). It will be the worst decision of your life.

Huge classes, hard time making friends because it's a big commuter school of 60,000 students, lots of "international" kids (many of whom are Canadian citizens) who don't speak English, hard time getting to know your profs, and many programs have very low class GPA averages that will screw your chances of getting into graduate / professional schools or a job.

Trust me I learned the hard way. If you want to go to school in Ontario, go to a smaller school like Queens or UWO ("Western"). Resist the urge to go to U of T just because it is "prestigious". This is misleading because a.) its prestige is with its research, so it has little meaning at the undergraduate level, only important for graduate schools. and b.) since it's a public school like all Canadian universities, it's going to have a mix of smart and dumb people. Therefore it cannot compare with any of the Ivies or selective liberal arts colleges in terms of smart people.

Americans: Do not come here. Sure the tuition is cheap, but go to McGill instead. Montreal's a nicer city.


----------



## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

Thanks for the tip.

How about Waterloo?  I actually wanted to go there for the co-op program but I'm glad I didnt. I didn't last at my local state university and the co-op program would have killed me. Not to mention the $25,000 tuition. :/


----------



## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Waterloo's fine, but co-op can be tough, and not everyone can find a placement that matches their major. Still better than U of T, I worked there two years ago and the people there were definitely nicer than the ones at U of T.

btw did you get my PM?


----------



## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

vicente said:


> Waterloo's fine, but co-op can be tough, and not everyone can find a placement that matches their major. Still better than U of T, I worked there two years ago and the people there were definitely nicer than the ones at U of T.
> 
> btw did you get my PM?


Yes I did. It does depend how I feel after 6 flags because I actually do have quite a bit of homework due soon.


----------



## LarryDavid (Oct 17, 2006)

I like big classes like that. It means I don't have to say anything.


----------



## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

LarryDavid said:


> I like big classes like that. It means I don't have to say anything.


i think i would prefer that too. but you make a good point vicente that it's really difficult to meet people or work on improving your SA with such large classes. i'm thinking of going to ryerson anyway so maybe that will be better. :stu


----------



## Slothrop (Aug 11, 2007)

Disagree, I'd take U of T over most universities in Ontario. York is far worse in most cases.


----------



## Eraserhead (Sep 23, 2006)

I could have written virtually the same thing about McGill. It's crowded and alienating, and also "prestigious". It's full of idiots and douchebags. All people talk about is drinking and partying. Perhaps I'm being unfair, but I'm quite the misanthrope.


----------



## Slothrop (Aug 11, 2007)

Nicolay said:


> All people talk about is drinking and partying. Perhaps I'm being unfair, but I'm quite the misanthrope.


You've described 95% of North American universities. Queens and Western are far worse than McGill and UofT in that regard.


----------



## LNahid2000 (May 23, 2007)

This is why I picked Laurier over UofT even though I got into both. Also, I went on a tour of both schools and ended up hating UofT and liking Laurier. Four of my classes this year have 60 people in them, and the other one has 100 people.


----------



## Slothrop (Aug 11, 2007)

Personally, I prefer larger classes. Easier to blend in and be anonymous.



> lots of "international" kids (many of whom are Canadian citizens) who don't speak English


Man, if you think it's international at U of T, you obviously haven't been to York. What's wrong with that, though? What do you expect in an extremely multicultural city?


----------



## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

LarryDavid said:


> I like big classes like that. It means I don't have to say anything.


Same. I went to Waterloo and a lot of undergrad classes have over a hundred students, so it's very easy to stay nice and anonymous.



> and many programs have very low class GPA averages that will screw your chances of getting into graduate / professional schools or a job.


That's not the first time I've heard that about UT. For some reason they mark harder there than elsewhere.


----------



## SAgirl (Nov 15, 2003)

My biggest class has 300 people.


----------



## bent (Aug 4, 2005)

Zephyr said:


> LarryDavid said:
> 
> 
> > I like big classes like that. It means I don't have to say anything.
> ...


They might mark harder in physics (which is what Vincente is in) but I have known a lot of people who went to UofT in arts and social sciences and I saw exactly what their syllabi were and exactly what grades they got for what they wrote. In some cases I even helped them write the essays and it is definitely over-hyped propaganda that U of T is harder or better than the average Canadian university (I graduated from York, have attended Carleton and known students/seen course work from U of T, Queens, U of Ottawa, and McGill). But when you have the size, history, money, propaganda machinery, and conservative backing that U of T has, reputations die hard.

As for the class sizes, most larger unis in canada have large lectures supplemented by smaller tutorials so you can still get more one on one mentoring and a small class experience if that's what you want. Usually the tutorials are taught by TAs (although at York when I was there it was always profs) but at U of T you will be lucky to have a lot of one on one time with any of the well-known profs. At York on the other hand, the well-known profs are more available to the students (at least they were when I was attending). Queen's is also probably better for that since it's way smaller to begin with but then you may lose the anonymity. McGill and Western are smaller than U of T or York but not tiny and still have large lectures so that's probably the ideal.


----------



## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

U of T is fine for graduate school, that's when U of T's "national prestige" actually means something

but I pity the fools who choose it for their undergraduate degree. Nobody cares where you get your Bachelors from, and you're a fool if you choose a huge and impersonal school.



Slothrop said:


> Man, if you think it's international at U of T, you obviously haven't been to York. What's wrong with that, though? What do you expect in an extremely multicultural city?


I'm xenophobic. People who dress like they're in Asia and speak foreign languages in front of others creep me out. That's one of the reasons why I'm moving to a small city in the South, to get away from (certain types of) immigrants.


----------



## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

vicente said:


> I'm xenophobic. People who dress like they're in Asia and speak foreign languages in front of others creep me out. That's one of the reasons why I'm moving to a small city in the South, to get away from (certain types of) immigrants.


You. Must. Be. Joking. Right??????


----------



## Slothrop (Aug 11, 2007)

I'm going to move away from Toronto, I don't like them trans-gendered folks... Sigh.


----------



## bent (Aug 4, 2005)

Yeah, u of t is totally over-rated. It is decent for grad school but not actually the best for anything. For undergrad it is not as good as Queens, Mount Allison, McGill, Waterloo (only for applied maths) or Schulich (York) for business. Some might even say that Guelph and McMaster are also better for life sciences. Even for grad school it is not necessarily the best. UBC, McGill, and other larger schools with many grad programs are often better.


----------



## pita (Jan 17, 2004)

I go to U of T because it's close to my home. I don't care about the 'repuation' because I think it's an overhyped school; I just like that I can take the train to class. I've actually attended a smaller university and a community college as well, and I was no better there than I am at U of T. Yeah, some of the classes are really large, but I actually have worse anxiety in small classes. I think it's different for everyone.

I don't think it really matters where you do your undergrad, although U of T does have some kick-*** resources in certain fields--I'm thinking of the dictionary of Old English, specifically. Laugh all you want, but I think they're up to 'F'!

I should also note that I don't plan on attending grad school, but I would not choose U of T for that anyway. They have a big English department but places like UBC are definitely better.


----------



## bent (Aug 4, 2005)

jane said:


> vicente said:
> 
> 
> > I'm xenophobic. People who dress like they're in Asia and speak foreign languages in front of others creep me out. That's one of the reasons why I'm moving to a small city in the South, to get away from (certain types of) immigrants.
> ...


My understanding is that he is totally serious.


----------



## bent (Aug 4, 2005)

Which makes me think he is self-hating since he is Asian...although I have no idea from where his ethnic origins lie since "Vincente" never tells anyone...if that is his real name lol.


----------



## nothing to fear (Mar 23, 2005)

i think what would most make me want to go to u of t is the location. so i'll probably consider going there or ryerson since i want to go somewhere downtown.. york is just way too far for my liking.


----------



## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

vicente said:


> I'm xenophobic. People who dress like they're in Asia and speak foreign languages in front of others creep me out. That's one of the reasons why I'm moving to a small city in the South, to get away from (certain types of) immigrants.





bent said:


> Which makes me think he is self-hating since he is Asian...although I have no idea from where his ethnic origins lie since "Vincente" never tells anyone...if that is his real name lol.


Imagine a white American wrote:
"I'm xenophobic. People who dress like they're in Europe and speak foreign languages in front of others creep me out."

Is he a self-hater?

Did anyone accuse the "German-American" Donald Rumsfeld for being a self-hater when he called Germany part of "Old Europe"?

The people who accuse non-white people of being self-haters for not loving their "home countries" are the real racists, because they put white people on a pedestal as the "real" Americans and assume that every non-white is a foreigner in some sense.

I have a preference for being around native (North) Americans like myself and don't feel as comfortable with foreigners, whether they be from Asia, Africa, or Europe. U of T is full of "Canadian citizens" who are actually immigrants taking advantage of our ultra-liberal immigration system, and I'd like to get away from that.


----------



## bent (Aug 4, 2005)

I already know that your main social activity involves hanging out at the French club with is full of French people from France acting French, and that you have mentioned EDITED OUT UPON REQUEST. So your statement of preferences holds no credibility with me. I know now you may try to qualify the French club or engage in more apologetics but like I said it has no credibility.

One can't compare white immigrants with others in any case since they are the original settlers who came as dominants and became the dominant establishment and continue to be the established majority. That's different from immigrants who come in a minority position with less power and influence and correspondingly live in different circumstances than white immigrants. Correspondingly, one can't compare native born non-whites in Canada to native born whites who are born into a majority establishment system of various privileges. That's not putting them on a pedestal. Denying that and pretending that you can identify on the same level in Canadian society as them even in the face of their exclusionary behavior and the privileges they enjoy at your expense is indirectly putting yourself down out of evasiveness and capitulation to authority. Hence the term "self-hating". I would be more likely to believe you are not if you wanted Asian-Canadians to grow as a part of canadian society and contribute to the development of your home/native country (Canada) in a bilateral way which includes influencing the host country with their Asian culture.

Canada's immigration system has reputation in some circles of Canada to be ultra-liberal but that is not the reputation it has in other countries that have their own immigration rules and is in fact not true. The immigration policies and laws here have never been particularly liberal as compared to other developed countries with high immigration. Nicolas Sarkozy of France recently referred specifically to Canada as a country with tougher immigration laws which France should imitate when he was defending his immigration reform proposals which are viewed in France and elsewhere as anything but "ultra-liberal".

But hey, don't think I don't know where you're coming from. You will most likely be way happier in Virginia, US because a melting pot ideology is better imo than "multiculturalism". And from what you've said based on experience, not only is the theory better but the actual outcome of applying it is better.


----------



## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Hey man, leave the personal stuff to the PMs.

And for the record, most of the people I hang out with at the French club are the Canadian ones since I relate to them more, I have few friends from the French club who are French, so I stick to my word.


----------



## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

vicente said:


> I have a preference for being around native (North) Americans like myself and don't feel as comfortable with foreigners, whether they be from Asia, Africa, or Europe.


Uni is place of learning. 
Maybe you should take this opportunity to appreciate and learn from other cultures.


----------



## hipolito (Sep 25, 2012)

McGill was my dream   ... I love French culture too.
but I'm not allowed to leave home so I go to U of T due to its proximity (idgas about its prestige) ... 
as for the difficulty, not that I'm a genius, but I would feel like I was missing out on the university experience if I wasn't challenged. Even at U of T I feel like "I may be in uni but I bet kids in the Ivy Leagues would laugh at the stuff I'm doing" and it makes me feel really small. To go to a school just because it's easier sounds like something I would do, and I hate that. 
I understand it's more practical for those in the tougher fields but I feel like I've already limited myself so much by choosing what I did choose.
_Butttt, _I think it's only hard for certain programs, and the one I'm in must be universally easy (I have had a strong complex about being stupid all my life, so I caved in high school and dropped the sciences and maths in the final year, so I don't have the prerequisites any more to do anything worthwhile (or something that I would feel stimulated by). what I chose (psych) is very un-stimulating, even though everyone seems to say the opposite. Idc. It bores me. I wish I was in commerce now, though the pressure would probably get to me, because I'm just taking economics first year (I'm at UTM) and it's _hard _(for me)_.
_UTM is friendly, very multicultural, very boring.


----------

