# Thoughts on chaos theory



## Scarlet Tears (Jun 11, 2015)

I'd like to share some philosophical beliefs I've been having since I was a child.

To me, chaos theory in a nutshell goes as follow: "You never know when you're going to be hit by a car. But when you do get hit, don't say you didn't see it coming."

The world unfolds in a chaotic, but predictable fashion, which is to say everything is predefined yet we cannot see into the future because our computational abilities are too weak.

So it that our answer to life? Are we destined to live so miserably because that's what the world/God has intended for us? Is our life a pre-recorded video tape that we are playing for the first time?

I feel I am devoid of all control over myself. Choices and decisions are merely God's illusions. There's only suffering to life and there's nothing I can do to stop it. Worse of all, some people are meant to suffer while others are bound to be happy for no apparent reasons. If God would be defined in Christian terms, he is not different from the devil. >

So, any other proponents of chaos theory? :nerd:


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

And now you're in here by yourself, uh, talking to yourself. That's that's chaos theory.


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## killahwail (Apr 16, 2015)

I'm still a newb on it....been reading about it for 3 years but so complicated....when I think i got it i lose it

i was reading this for a long time...










im very poor in physics...so its too much for me to grasp...yet the layman explanations are not fully satisfactory...glad there is discussion


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## Barakiel (Oct 31, 2013)

What you described sounds more like determinism. Dunno much about physics, but I highly doubt chaos theory has anything to do with whether we're all doomed to be miserable or not though.


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## a degree of freedom (Sep 28, 2011)

Ok, first of all, I think what you're talking about is more related to determinism than chaos, and there's reasons to qualify determinism and not think your life is just a recording that is being played out the single way it had to be. Because physics. Further, even if it was, the knowledge of the recording would be inaccessible to you. I remember at some point having a serious objection to the principle of the identity of indiscernibles, but at least here I think the indiscernibility to you of a life pre-determined vs. one that isn't should be reflected back into your thoughts about it. That is, if you can't tell the difference, it shouldn't be a difference for you, so that you would rightly decide it was _completely irrelevant to you_.

Then suddenly you invoke some concept of God, and then suddenly invoke some concept of illusions of God, and then suddenly wind up expressing a fatalistic fearful view. I won't narrate the rest, but, in short, _you're not making a whole lot of sense here_. Slow down and please spell out your thoughts more carefully.


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## Scarlet Tears (Jun 11, 2015)

First thank everyone for replying.


Just to be clear this wasnt meant to be a serious scientific debate, just a casual discussion. I admit i was feeling really down when i posted this therefore said some pretty irrational stuff (like God and Christianity stuff was pretty stupid).


That being said, because theres no way to prove whether life is deterministic or not, it shouldnt affect you either way. But since people's perception of reality is subjective to the individual who makes them, if one believes in determinism, he may not be able to see alternative truths. Thats how I feel right now. I am unable to convince myself that I'm in control of my own person and that life is not without hope.


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## killahwail (Apr 16, 2015)

I started thinking about the randomness aspect when I was involved in a few car accidents. I knew of other kids with similar ages that died hitting poles or flipping over. I survived both without a scratch. So I'm not much of a science person as I am a spiritual person with a deep devotion to GOD. This is why I have a difficult time explaining my thoughts on this chaos theory. Do I think events happen for a reason? I don't know. I'd like to think there is a reason, and not everything occurs due to random chaotic patterns. Looking back at my life, it feels like some force has always guided my decisions, because there is no way I wanted to end up here.


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## whocares187 (May 23, 2015)

All I know for sure is breaking it down logically is painful, but the world has taught me that something being illogical is irrelevant to it being possible. When that one dude that loves to argue comes in chewing apart all your points, know that even if they make you doubtful in your reasons, neither of you have any idea how life works and just because reasoning may be flawed it doesn't mean your idea is wrong.

Personally I think there's a lot of metaphorical truth to chaos theory. we might as well be pre-determined because there's really very little you can do to change your life course. If you take all your money tomorrow and put it on a roulette number, you may be considerably richer or completely broke. Interestingly, while this seems like something anyone can just do, nobody is ever going to do it. I think this means our risk averse nature helps control our fate and gives people the idea that everything is predetermined. It very well could be and honestly I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore.


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## bad baby (Jun 10, 2013)

It doesn't matter if everything is predetermined, since we are all given the illusion of control (over our own thoughts actions feelings etc), and there is no alternative other than to accept your role as a free agent and act like one. Obviously you have a choice in the things you do, and what you do in turn impacts the way things turn out in your life. The sooner you accept that the better off you will be. It's probably kind of counter-intuitive because it maybe seems like you are admitting to the fact that everything wrong with your life is all your own fault, but looked at from another perspective you're freeing yourself from the caged mindset of a helpless pawn, and honestly that is worth all the shame in saying, "I ****ed up."
This is kind of why I think Buddhist philosophy is far superior to Christianity (even though both are pretty ****ing depressing to be honest), but that is a discussion for another time.



Scarlet Tears said:


> That being said, because *theres no way to prove whether life is deterministic or not*, it shouldnt affect you either way. But since *people's perception of reality is subjective to the individual who makes them*, if one believes in determinism, he may not be able to see alternative truths. Thats how I feel right now. I am unable to convince myself that I'm in control of my own person and that life is not without hope.


If you understand this to be the case then why do you continue to believe in determinism?



killahwail said:


> I started thinking about the randomness aspect when I was involved in a few car accidents. I knew of other kids with similar ages that died hitting poles or flipping over. I survived both without a scratch. So I'm not much of a science person as I am a spiritual person with a deep devotion to GOD. This is why I have a difficult time explaining my thoughts on this chaos theory. Do I think events happen for a reason? I don't know. I'd like to think there is a reason, and not everything occurs due to random chaotic patterns. Looking back at my life, it feels like some force has always guided my decisions, because there is no way I wanted to end up here.


Yea, I've been in a couple of incidents in the past where I look back and think I could have died right there and then, but I didn't. It feels almost as if the universe is taking care of me in some mysterious way, and whatever that is, it can't be such a bad thing.


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## killahwail (Apr 16, 2015)

Scarlet Tears said:


> .....
> 
> That being said, because theres no way to prove whether life is deterministic or not, it shouldnt affect you either way. .....


To that point specifically; and I'm not trying to yank anyone's chain or anything like that; is it possible for one to realize that life is deterministic and prove it to one's self, all the while knowing it is impossible for another to prove it to him? Then really, all that matters is subjective experience no?
These are not rhetorical questions in nature, I am asking for input  Tanks. Tanks alot

I hope that makes sense. My brain glitches time to time.


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## Scarlet Tears (Jun 11, 2015)

killahwail said:


> is it possible for one to realize that life is deterministic and prove it to one's self, all the while knowing it is impossible for another to prove it to him? Then really, all that matters is subjective experience no?


That's the funny thing about science: we like to believe all scientific findings are objective, yet every researcher's perception of the world is only subjective to himself. When there's not a prevalent explanation to a phenomenon (one which consists of many subjective views agreeing with each other), we compose our own hypothesis based on our personal knowledge/experiences which are again completely subjective. So in a sense, the world is "real" only to the extent of our perception. If you believe something is true, then it's true. But you can't argue someone else's world view is false, because your version of reality is not better than his version.

Anyway, my years of study in biology, physics and chaos (math) have led me to believe life is deterministic. I don't know why it should bother me so much (cuz who care? as long as you cannot predict the future, life may as well be random and unplanned) but it does.

I really hope I don't piss anyone off; I don't mean to challenge anyone's views.


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## killahwail (Apr 16, 2015)

Scarlet Tears said:


> That's the funny thing about science: we like to believe all scientific findings are objective, yet every researcher's perception of the world is only subjective to himself. When there's not a prevalent explanation to a phenomenon (one which consists of many subjective views agreeing with each other), we compose our own hypothesis based on our personal knowledge/experiences which are again completely subjective. So in a sense, the world is "real" only to the extent of our perception. If you believe something is true, then it's true. But you can't argue someone else's world view is false, because your version of reality is not better than his version.
> 
> Anyway, my years of study in biology, physics and chaos (math) have led me to believe life is deterministic. I don't know why it should bother me so much (cuz who care? as long as you cannot predict the future, life may as well be random and unplanned) but it does.
> 
> I really hope I don't piss anyone off; I don't mean to challenge anyone's views.


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## ugh1979 (Aug 27, 2010)

Scarlet Tears said:


> That's the funny thing about science: we like to believe all scientific findings are objective, yet every researcher's perception of the world is only subjective to himself.


Application of the scientific method helps removes the subjective element and leaves what can often be the underpinning objective truth.

It's way more likely to be objectivley true than someone's anecdotal report of an experience for example.



> When there's not a prevalent explanation to a phenomenon (one which consists of many subjective views agreeing with each other), we compose our own hypothesis based on our personal knowledge/experiences which are again completely subjective. So in a sense, the world is "real" only to the extent of our perception. If you believe something is true, then it's true. But you can't argue someone else's world view is false, because your version of reality is not better than his version.


You can argue someone else's world view is false is it can be shown with a strong degree of probability that their beliefs are false using credible empirical evidence.

Not all world views/"truths" can be deemed equally credible/likely.


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## twitchy666 (Apr 21, 2013)

*DaisyWorld*

GAIA


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## HelpfulHero (Aug 14, 2013)

According to quantum bayesianism you in a sense perceive your own unique reality


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## happyturtles (Jul 28, 2015)

I took a class on chaos in college and it was one of my favorites even though my major had nothing to do with math. I found it awe-inspiring that simple rules could create a chaotic pathway that never quite repeats itself, yet follows a larger pattern. If anything, chaos theory makes me feel more hopeful about my life--something that appears chaotic can turn out to be simple when you zoom out far enough.
And I also read Chaos by James Gleick for the class.


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## Sdistant (Mar 25, 2015)

Your theory is largely right. No we can't be certain we won't have an accident or know the future but we can influence it by our actions. I think that we can make our own future, so in that sense we can tell the future. I don't believe that anyone is born to suffer or to be happy. Yes some people are born into a more advantaged situation than others but that's not what's important. The important thing is what we do to change and improve the situation that we're in.


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## Blue2015 (Jul 3, 2015)

Scarlet Tears said:


> I'd like to share some philosophical beliefs I've been having since I was a child.
> 
> To me, chaos theory in a nutshell goes as follow: "You never know when you're going to be hit by a car. But when you do get hit, don't say you didn't see it coming."
> 
> ...


I totally disagree. Nothing is predestined.


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