# How do you break the touch barrier?



## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

Pick up advice usually involves escalating physical contact from something simple like touching an arm or hand to gradually reach kissing. But, when you read these books like the game or other pick up sites, they give you these ridiculous methods like reading her palm or asking for high fives for stupid reasons. Whenever I read these methods of making the initial touch, it just seems so ridiculous like any woman is going to either see right through it or assume I'm autistic for trying that. How do you actually start touching women and how fast do you go from the safer touches to more risky touch?


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## relm1 (Sep 13, 2016)

I think a hug as a greeting or exit is quite easy, relaxed, and genuinely warm. Maybe that is a way to break the touch barrier?


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

relm1 said:


> I think a hug as a greeting or exit is quite easy, relaxed, and genuinely warm. Maybe that is a way to break the touch barrier?


How do you even ask a woman for a hug? That seems like something you have to work up to after getting her used to less serious touching from you.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

I wouldn't think that "Breaking the touch barrier" should even be a consideration unless you're actually on a date, unless it's merely a natural consequence of a situation, i.e. helping someone up who has fallen or putting a hand on a shoulder as you squeeze past in a crowded place.

Save it for a date and then it should be subtle...maybe a light touch on the shoulder or the back if you're walking through a crowd and you want to let them know you're still there, pat on the arm to get her attention to point out some sight or attraction.

The touch part shouldn't become a thing until you've broken some emotional barriers, i.e. made her laugh, engaged in a meaningful conversation, etc., anyway.

p.s....don't read that crap.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

SofaKing said:


> I wouldn't think that "Breaking the touch barrier" should even be a consideration unless you're actually on a date, unless it's merely a natural consequence of a situation, i.e. helping someone up who has fallen or putting a hand on a shoulder as you squeeze past in a crowded place.
> 
> Save it for a date and then it should be subtle...maybe a light touch on the shoulder or the back if you're walking through a crowd and you want to let them know you're still there, pat on the arm to get her attention to point out some sight or attraction.
> 
> ...


Well, every time you're interacting with a woman you should consider it a date because she's always evaluating you for mating potential. You can't be a hands off reserved guy while asking her out and then suddenly change to being charming and touchy on the date, it needs to be who you are as a person - you're a guy who touches women and it's no big deal, just normal.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

Optic Knight said:


> Well, every time you're interacting with a woman you should consider it a date


Um...no.

A date is a specifically planned occasion both parties are aware and mutually agreed to it.

To the degree that we're always auditioning to be eligible to ask someone for a date, that I can agree with.

Regardless, at that point, physical touch shouldn't be a consideration.

But, I can tell this will also be unsatisfactory to you...so you're just going to have to go to dance clubs where copious amounts of alcohol are being consumed and you can ask someone to dance and touch respectfully in the course of dancing. In no way does this mean getting your grind on like a pre-pubescent teen.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

SofaKing said:


> Um...no.
> 
> A date is a specifically planned occasion both parties are aware and mutually agreed to it.
> 
> ...


Okay while we disagree on that, there was another point I made in that post: that you can't be acting like you're split personality or a different person. You can't be one guy when you meet her and then a different guy when you're on the date, you need to be consistent or you'll scare her. If you condition her to expect that you're a guy who doesn't risk physical touch and then suddenly you change on the date and you're trying to pretend that you're super comfortable with touch and it's no big deal, it's going to be a jarring transition that will scare her off.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

Optic Knight said:


> Okay while we disagree on that, there was another point I made in that post: that you can't be acting like you're split personality or a different person. You can't be one guy when you meet her and then a different guy when you're on the date, you need to be consistent or you'll scare her. If you condition her to expect that you're a guy who doesn't risk physical touch and then suddenly you change on the date and you're trying to pretend that you're super comfortable with touch and it's no big deal, it's going to be a jarring transition that will scare her off.


Yeah, we're not going to see eye to eye on this...at all.

Keep reading your PUA BS....and if you want your true self to be someone who disrespects a woman's boundaries when you've encountered her for 2 minutes, then go for it.

Let us know how well this has already worked for you in the past...

I'm out.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

SofaKing said:


> Yeah, we're not going to see eye to eye on this...at all.
> 
> Keep reading your PUA BS....and if you want your true self to be someone who disrespects a woman's boundaries when you've encountered her for 2 minutes, then go for it.
> 
> ...


Woah woah woah, who said anything about disrespecting boundaries. You're just automatically assuming she doesn't want to be touched at all, which depending on the woman could be the case, but isn't something you should just assume, or else you'll never get anywhere in dating. I would guess this is why the pua sites suggest things like palm reading or high fives, because they require the voluntary participation of the woman so if she doesn't want to she can simply not give you her hand.


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## regimes (Aug 24, 2011)

Optic Knight said:


> Pick up advice usually involves escalating physical contact from something simple like touching an arm or hand to gradually reach kissing. But, when you read these books like the game or other pick up sites, they give you these ridiculous methods like reading her palm or asking for high fives for stupid reasons. Whenever I read these methods of making the initial touch, it just seems so ridiculous like any woman is going to either see right through it or assume I'm autistic for trying that. How do you actually start touching women and how fast do you go from the safer touches to more risky touch?


well, the whole point of initiating contact is with the hope that a woman _does_ understand what you're doing.

you're not trying to trick someone here. starting a relationship and having intimacy is not something you want to trick someone into doing.

and all of those are good suggestions. a high five, pretending to read her palm, touching her arm, giving her a pat on the back or arm, playing games were there is some contact etc are all great ways to do that. just make sure it's chaste and respectful.

most women will know what you're doing. you just have to find out whether or not she's okay with it and wants to return the contact.

if she doesn't, you should respect her boundaries and back off. if she backs away from you, doesn't return the touch, etc then that is evidence that she's not into it.

(the same advice can be applied to guys or other genders)


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

Optic Knight said:


> Woah woah woah, who said anything about disrespecting boundaries. You're just automatically assuming she doesn't want to be touched at all, which depending on the woman could be the case, but isn't something you should just assume, or else you'll never get anywhere in dating. I would guess this is why the pua sites suggest things like palm reading or high fives, because they require the voluntary participation of the woman so if she doesn't want to she can simply not give you her hand.


Well, i've had several LTRs (been married too) and dated others...so I've already been successful in my non-PUA ways. I also don't chase women in bars, clubs, etc.... I put myself in situations where my personality, intelligence, etc., is noticed and generates interest without having to paw women.

I didn't come here looking for advice...you did. (Now, keeping relationships going is a different struggle)

How's the PUA stuff working out for you?


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

regimes said:


> well, the whole point of initiating contact is with the hope that a woman _does_ understand what you're doing.
> 
> you're not trying to trick someone here. starting a relationship and having intimacy is not something you want to trick someone into doing.
> 
> ...


Well I figure when you start to work up to more intimate touches, like longer touches to the arm, touches closer to the neck or face, then she'll see that as you attempting to progress towards intimacy. The earlier safer touches I wouldn't really say "trick" but I don't think the goal at that point is to reveal your intentions, just to get her used to or comfortable with your touch, to expect you to touch her and gauge how she feels about being touched by you. The palm reading thing just seems so cringe though, you really wouldn't be put off by a guy asking to read your palm, just seems so aspie 'wanna see a magic trick' nerd like.


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## The Library of Emma (Mar 3, 2016)

This is one thing I've read about over and over again in relation to flirting, that I've never really understood. Touch barriers are there for our comfort, and forcibly trying to break something that is there for our comfort seems like an incredibly risky business. IE. things could get really uncomfortable really fast.

Additionally, most men will be both taller and stronger than whatever woman they are with, and this comes with the responsibility of never giving her a reason to think you would try to hurt her or force anything from her, and unprompted touch can put you in questionable territory.

As another poster has already said here, I think some emotional connection and trust is necessary before one starts encroaching on another's personal space. I'm not even sure it should be done consciously. If you're together and interacting for a while, accidental bumps will happen, or if you're talking quietly for a while and you find yourselves leaned in across a table, there's nothing to say you shouldn't try to catch her eye and go for a kiss.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

She and Her Darkness said:


> This is one thing I've read about over and over again in relation to flirting, that I've never really understood. Touch barriers are there for our comfort, and forcibly trying to break something that is there for our comfort seems like an incredibly risky business. IE. things could get really uncomfortable really fast.
> 
> Additionally, most men will be both taller and stronger than whatever woman they are with, and this comes with the responsibility of never giving her a reason to think you would try to hurt her or force anything from her, and unprompted touch can put you in questionable territory.
> 
> As another poster has already said here, I think some emotional connection and trust is necessary before one starts encroaching on another's personal space. I'm not even sure it should be done consciously. If you're together and interacting for a while, accidental bumps will happen, or if you're talking quietly for a while and you find yourselves leaned in across a table, there's nothing to say you shouldn't try to catch her eye and go for a kiss.


I think you didn't read my post earlier, there's no force and I'm not sure where you two are getting the idea of forcing touch. The point of things like high five, palm reading, or playing games is that it requires her voluntary participation so she always has a way of just saying no and not giving you her hand. Even doing a quick arm touch or light grab when speaking to emphasize a point, if she doesn't like that she can make it clear and then the touch served it's purpose of gauging her level of comfort with being touched/being touched by me.


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## The Library of Emma (Mar 3, 2016)

Optic Knight said:


> I think you didn't read my post earlier, there's no force and I'm not sure where you two are getting the idea of forcing touch. The point of things like high five, palm reading, or playing games is that it requires her voluntary participation so she always has a way of just saying no and not giving you her hand. Even doing a quick arm touch or light grab when speaking to emphasize a point, if she doesn't like that she can make it clear and then the touch served it's purpose of gauging her level of comfort with being touched/being touched by me.


I read your post over carefully, actually. I think our use of the term "forced touch" may be a bit different, so I want to clarify what I mean when I use it.

I use it to mean any touch that is, one, not strictly necessary, and two, was premeditated and not a natural reaction to the situation. This includes quick arm touches and light grabs if they don't come naturally to you.

For instance, flirting advice for young women usually includes reaching for a man's arm (or knee, if they happen to be sitting next to you) when you're laughing at a joke. Since my natural reaction to a joke would be to laugh at it without touching anyone around me, the touch would be "forced."

Although a woman (or a man for that matter) can disengage from a touch they don't like, once you've tried it, you've tried it. By all means, stop doing it if they don't seem to appreciate it, but they _will _ still remember it, and whatever associated uneasiness you gave them that lead them to want you to stop. In essence, the damage may already be done.

That's why I suggest not going out of the range of your own natural responses. Those responses will change as you begin to warm to each other in the course of a normal relationship.


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## regimes (Aug 24, 2011)

Optic Knight said:


> Well, every time you're interacting with a woman you should consider it a date because she's always evaluating you for mating potential.


no, lol. loads of women are already taken, are gay, or aren't interested in sex. 
and even straight, single women definitely don't "always evaluate" others for "mating potential."

that's hilarious nonsense


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

She and Her Darkness said:


> I read your post over carefully, actually. I think our use of the term "forced touch" may be a bit different, so I want to clarify what I mean when I use it.
> 
> I use it to mean any touch that is, one, not strictly necessary, and two, was premeditated and not a natural reaction to the situation. This includes quick arm touches and light grabs if they don't come naturally to you.
> 
> ...


I think following our natural responses is a mistake when we have social anxiety, our natural impulses are dysfunctional. We should change our body language to match what normal, socially successful people do, instead of our natural instinct which would be to never try and stay alone for the rest of our lives. I can tell you exactly how many women I got into bed by following my instincts and not touching them: 0.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

This thread is freaking me out. I'm kind of glad I've never been put in this situation.



Optic Knight said:


> Even doing a quick arm touch or light grab when speaking to emphasize a point, if she doesn't like that she can make it clear and then the touch served it's purpose of gauging her level of comfort with being touched/being touched by me.


I would personally feel like I've been branded all day if someone I'm not VERY close to tried that with me. A "light grab"...? :wtf



Optic Knight said:


> Well, every time you're interacting with a woman you should consider it a date because she's always evaluating you for mating potential.


:?

My entire experience with guys must be a lie because this has never happened once, on my end or on theirs. All my interactions have been entirely platonic...the guys often already had girlfriends and they sure weren't interested in me that way. And considering that I don't want kids, no clue why I'd be evaluating ANYONE'S mating potential.

Every male/female interaction is a date... :um Every interaction is ruled by my ovaries...?

You seem to have some odd source material.

ETA:



Optic Knight said:


> I can tell you exactly how many women I got into bed by following my instincts and not touching them: 0.


Was that your sole motivation in interacting with them...? Does their mating potential attract you? You would be 50/50 responsible for any children that result, yes, because mating potential is the entire point of male/female interactions (I'm sorry--"dates")...?


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## lilyvinn (Aug 11, 2017)

Optic Knight said:


> Pick up advice usually involves escalating physical contact from something simple like touching an arm or hand to gradually reach kissing. But, when you read these books like the game or other pick up sites, they give you these ridiculous methods like reading her palm or asking for high fives for stupid reasons. Whenever I read these methods of making the initial touch, it just seems so ridiculous like any woman is going to either see right through it or assume I'm autistic for trying that. How do you actually start touching women and how fast do you go from the safer touches to more risky touch?


Well first of all, DON'T READ THAT **** ahahaha, believe me, I have read those from a girls perspective and cringed.

If she makes a funny joke, put your hand on her arm while laughing, if she only sees you as a friend, she won't find this weird, but, if she's interested in you, I think she will seek to see if you do this with other people, so, just do it with her!

Or when you're leaving a room, while saying goodbye, put your hand on her back while giving eye contact.


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## The Library of Emma (Mar 3, 2016)

Optic Knight said:


> I think following our natural responses is a mistake when we have social anxiety, our natural impulses are dysfunctional. We should change our body language to match what normal, socially successful people do, instead of our natural instinct which would be to never try and stay alone for the rest of our lives. I can tell you exactly how many women I got into bed by following my instincts and not touching them: 0.


If your goal is to "get women into bed," then being overly touchy should be an accurate broadcast of your intentions.


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## The Library of Emma (Mar 3, 2016)

tehuti88 said:


> I would personally feel like I've been branded all day if someone I'm not VERY close to tried that with me. A "light grab"...? :wtf


When I read this over the first time I thought he meant grabbing hands/arms, but seeing your reaction to this I expect that was naively optimistic.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

She and Her Darkness said:


> When I read this over the first time I thought he meant grabbing hands/arms, but seeing your reaction to this I expect that was naively optimistic.


:lol

I'm not sure what he meant...but either way, if someone "lightly grabbed" me, it probably wouldn't end well.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

lilyvinn said:


> Well first of all, DON'T READ THAT **** ahahaha, believe me, I have read those from a girls perspective and cringed.
> 
> If she makes a funny joke, put your hand on her arm while laughing, if she only sees you as a friend, she won't find this weird, but, if she's interested in you, I think she will seek to see if you do this with other people, so, just do it with her!
> 
> Or when you're leaving a room, while saying goodbye, put your hand on her back while giving eye contact.


I'm worried about how to do this in a natural way that makes her comfortable rather than it being awkward and scaring her. I'm concerned that I'll hesitate, or I'll reach my arm out too quickly or too slowly, or my hand will be shaking from nervousness, and all those things will come off less as a friendly touch and be scarier.



She and Her Darkness said:


> If your goal is to "get women into bed," then being overly touchy should be an accurate broadcast of your intentions.


Sexual attraction is the basis for all relationships. You're not going to get any sort of relationship at all if you can't at least get her sexually interested. That's the first step.


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## BrokeTech (Jun 1, 2017)

:roll

Gosh, are you the user Forever Me with _another_ account?



SofaKing said:


> *I wouldn't think that "Breaking the touch barrier" should even be a consideration unless you're actually on a date*, unless it's merely a natural consequence of a situation, i.e. helping someone up who has fallen or putting a hand on a shoulder as you squeeze past in a crowded place.
> 
> Save it for a date and then it should be subtle...maybe a light touch on the shoulder or the back if you're walking through a crowd and you want to let them know you're still there, pat on the arm to get her attention to point out some sight or attraction.
> 
> ...


Not that you're going to listen, because everyone is obviously wasting their time responding to you. But... :agree

But hey, go ahead and touch some attractive chick you have nothing to do with. When she pops you in the face or kicks you in the dingaling, don't come back here posting asking why.


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## lilyvinn (Aug 11, 2017)

Optic Knight said:


> I'm worried about how to do this in a natural way that makes her comfortable rather than it being awkward and scaring her. I'm concerned that I'll hesitate, or I'll reach my arm out too quickly or too slowly, or my hand will be shaking from nervousness, and all those things will come off less as a friendly touch and be scarier.


I can't believe I am about to say this to someone with SA. But there are some things you just have to TRY and NOT overthink. Because you're right, doing this will stress you out, and will not seem as friendly. If you TRY and make it natural, it won't work, let it come naturally. Don't put too much pressure on yourself to do this the next time you see a girl you like, just allow yourself time to overcome certain battles.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

tehuti88 said:


> A "light grab"...? :wtf


:lol

I can think of a few better ways I might have worded that.



Optic Knight said:


> Whenever I read these methods of making the initial touch, it just seems so ridiculous like any woman is going to either see right through it


They're kind of supposed to "see right through it", man. She needs to know you're interested. That's basically the whole point.

It's gradual escalation while taking (mostly non-verbal) cues of reciprocation. If the latter is absent, that's your cue to stop the escalation.

I'll add one thing to all of this: Size matters. The bigger you are, the higher your risk of making her feel trapped (the more careful you need to be to avoid inflicting that negative feeling on her), so if you're like 6'3 and 225lbs while she's 5'4 and 110lbs, you'll need to be particularly mindful of this. Conversely, if you're of a smaller size, then you'll have a little more leeway to work with.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

lilyvinn said:


> I can't believe I am about to say this to someone with SA. But there are some things you just have to TRY and NOT overthink. Because you're right, doing this will stress you out, and will not seem as friendly. If you TRY and make it natural, it won't work, let it come naturally. Don't put too much pressure on yourself to do this the next time you see a girl you like, just allow yourself time to overcome certain battles.


I just wish there was a better way to practice than actually taking the risk and doing it with real women, because that seems like such a high risk.



Just Lurking said:


> :lol
> 
> They're kind of supposed to "see right through it", man. She needs to know you're interested. That's basically the whole point.


Regimes said the same thing, and I know that later on as you move towards more intimate touches that's going to be the case, but the initial safer touches, I just don't think she should know you're that interested at that point. Wouldn't that scare her off?


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## lilyvinn (Aug 11, 2017)

Optic Knight said:


> I just wish there was a better way to practice than actually taking the risk and doing it with real women, because that seems like such a high risk.


Maybe start with doing it to your male friends, which is obviously friendly, so you can used to doing it with people in general??


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

Ignored my reply yet replied to others...

Hmmmmmm.

Sounds familiar.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

This thread lol.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

lilyvinn said:


> Maybe start with doing it to your male friends, which is obviously friendly, so you can used to doing it with people in general??


I actually can touch my male friends pretty easily, I'm not bothered in the slightest by walking up and putting my hand on their back. But I've known those guys for 12 years. There's a huge gap from putting my hand on my close friends back, and touching a woman I just met or only know in a very distant way.


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## lilyvinn (Aug 11, 2017)

Optic Knight said:


> I actually can touch my male friends pretty easily, I'm not bothered in the slightest by walking up and putting my hand on their back. But I've known those guys for 12 years. There's a huge gap from putting my hand on my close friends back, and touching a woman I just met or only know in a very distant way.


That's a tough one, I would suggest working hard on getting over that wall. But from a girls perspective, I never find it weird when a guy touches me in that kind of way


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

lilyvinn said:


> That's a tough one, I would suggest working hard on getting over that wall. But from a girls perspective, I never find it weird when a guy touches me in that kind of way


Thanks, I guess I'll just have to practice. Do you have any opinion on the things like palm reading or other games, or should I just be sticking to the light touch or grab after a joke or important statement? I need an excuse to touch right? Like I can't just put my hand on her randomly, it has to have a reason.


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## lilyvinn (Aug 11, 2017)

Optic Knight said:


> Thanks, I guess I'll just have to practice. Do you have any opinion on the things like palm reading or other games, or should I just be sticking to the light touch or grab after a joke or important statement? I need an excuse to touch right? Like I can't just put my hand on her randomly, it has to have a reason.


As I said, reading those books and **** made me cringe so hard my eyes fell into the back of my head.

If a guy asked to read my palm I would be very uncomfortable ahahha


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Optic Knight said:


> Pick up advice usually involves escalating physical contact from something simple like touching an arm or hand to gradually reach kissing. But, when you read these books like the game or other pick up sites, they give you these ridiculous methods like reading her palm or asking for high fives for stupid reasons. Whenever I read these methods of making the initial touch, it just seems so ridiculous like any woman is going to either see right through it or assume I'm autistic for trying that. How do you actually start touching women and how fast do you go from the safer touches to more risky touch?


I know this isn't the answer you want but it's obviously going to depend on a number of factors, women aren't Rubix cubes.

How about this, do what feels natural for *both *of you, in order to do this you'll have to be able to read people so you can see if she likes or dislikes what you're doing (I'll explain why in a second). If you can't currently read people, that's what you should be reading up on instead of PUA literature.



Optic Knight said:


> I think you didn't read my post earlier, there's no force and I'm not sure where you two are getting the idea of forcing touch. The point of things like high five, palm reading, or playing games is that it requires her voluntary participation so she always has a way of just saying no and not giving you her hand. Even doing a quick arm touch or light grab when speaking to emphasize a point, if she doesn't like that she can make it clear and then the touch served it's purpose of gauging her level of comfort with being touched/being touched by me.


Contrary to what appears to be your current understanding, people do things they don't want to do all the time. Intimidation would be one possible cause for example, would you be comfortable with women letting you touch them because they aren't assertive? Do you want women to *let *you touch them or *want *you to touch them, do you care?



Just Lurking said:


> :lol
> 
> I can think of a few better ways I might have worded that.


A tender grope?



Optic Knight said:


> I just wish there was a better way to practice than actually taking the risk and doing it with real women, because that seems like such a high risk.


But you know there isn't right?



Optic Knight said:


> Regimes said the same thing, and I know that later on as you move towards more intimate touches that's going to be the case, but the initial safer touches, I just don't think she should know you're that interested at that point. Wouldn't that scare her off?


It all depends, life isn't as simple as you want it to be. You're going to either have to think on a case by case basis (requires mental effort) or keep trying indiscriminately until it works (high risk of rejection and potentially making women uncomfortable). I'd choose the former, many men choose the latter, it's up to you to choose which you'd prefer.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Optic Knight said:


> Regimes said the same thing, and I know that later on as you move towards more intimate touches that's going to be the case, but the initial safer touches, I just don't think she should know you're that interested at that point. Wouldn't that scare her off?


If she gets scared off because she thinks you're interested in her, then that is an issue with* her* -- not *you* (ie. it's totally outside of your control). Maybe she prefers to very slowly warm up or 'be friends first'. Maybe she's coming off a bad breakup. Maybe she's just gone through a traumatic experience. Who knows.

You can only control your approach, your behaviour, your mannerisms, what you say and do, etc... You cannot control how any given girl is going to respond to you.

People can only talk in generalizations here, and for every generalization there will be many exceptions, but for the most part, it's going to be best to make your interest known from the get-go. Girls are not stupid, anyway. They know what's going on when a guy approaches her. If anything, p***yfooting around it is going to communicate a lack of self-confidence which is like the last thing you want to do (which may sound trite, but it's true -- self-confidence, or the lack of it, has a ripple effect that impacts many important aspects of a person's life).

Whatever you are, whatever you do... Own it. If you're interested in a girl, then be like, "_F*** yeah, I'm interested in you, let's do the thing._" (Don't take that literally -- it's an attitude thing.) If she backs off or rejects you for whatever reason, then just smile at her, say "OK, have a good night," and move on. Worst case scenario, you gain some experience/practice that you can apply to the next one.



Optic Knight said:


> I actually can touch my male friends pretty easily, I'm not bothered in the slightest by walking up and putting my hand on their back. But I've known those guys for 12 years.


So, talk to her and treat her like you've known her for 12 years.

You're comfortable, loose, and relatively confident around your friends, right? If you're that way with her, then that's the sort of vibe the conversation is going to have, and she'll be more likely to feel at ease with you. The more 'at ease' she feels with you, the better your odds of not _scaring her off_.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

LonelyLurker said:


> Contrary to what appears to be your current understanding, people do things they don't want to do all the time. Intimidation would be one possible cause for example, would you be comfortable with women letting you touch them because they aren't assertive? Do you want women to *let *you touch them or *want *you to touch them, do you care?


Even if they won't say "don't touch me" they should at least give off signs of being uncomfortable if I touch them and they didn't want that. If they won't even do that, then honestly it's their own fault at that point. I can't go through life assuming that everyone is so frightened that they won't even express discomfort, it's not like I'm going up to women with a gun on my belt or trapping them in a secluded room.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

Just Lurking said:


> So, talk to her and treat her like you've known her for 12 years.
> 
> You're comfortable, loose, and relatively confident around your friends, right? If you're that way with her, then that's the sort of vibe the conversation is going to have, and she'll be more likely to feel at ease with you. The more 'at ease' she feels with you, the better your odds of not _scaring her off_.


It's not just knowing them for so long, it's also that they're guys and touches have no sexual implications behind them. When it's a man touching a woman though, it's automatically at least somewhat sexual. Even a slight touch on the elbow after a joke has more implications than two straight men hugging each other.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Optic Knight said:


> Even if they won't say "don't touch me" they should at least give off signs of being uncomfortable if I touch them and they didn't want that. If they won't even do that, then honestly it's their own fault at that point. I can't go through life assuming that everyone is so frightened that they won't even express discomfort, it's not like I'm going up to women with a gun on my belt or trapping them in a secluded room.


I'm not suggesting you go through life assuming everyone is frightened of you, I'm suggesting you employ consideration, observation and common sense. If you want to be the kind of man that doesn't do that, so be it.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Optic Knight said:


> Even if they won't say "don't touch me" they should at least give off signs of being uncomfortable if I touch them and they didn't want that. If they won't even do that, then honestly it's their own fault at that point. I can't go through life assuming that everyone is so frightened that they won't even express discomfort, it's not like I'm going up to women with a gun on my belt or trapping them in a secluded room.


Bull****.

Assume they don't want you touching them unless you get the green light to do so. Seriously. Not only are you just making women uncomfortable, but you will just be coming across as creepy (from a totally self serving perspective, which seems to be your thing).

An absence of signs of positive interest is your red light.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> Bull****.
> 
> Assume they don't want you touching them unless you get the green light to do so. Seriously. Not only are you just making women uncomfortable, but you will just be coming across as creepy (from a totally self serving perspective, which seems to be your thing).
> 
> An absence of signs of positive interest is your red light.


Do you walk around with your hands in your pockets to avoid accidentally touching anyone? When people are blocking your way onto the train do you stand there saying "excuse me, excuse me" or do you just lightly push on their shoulder to let them know you're coming through? The idea that any touch ever is absolutely forbidden until you get some explicit green light is absurd. Being a human in public involves the possibility of touch.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Optic Knight said:


> It's not just knowing them for so long, it's also that they're guys and touches have no sexual implications behind them. When it's a man touching a woman though, it's automatically at least somewhat sexual. Even a slight touch on the elbow after a joke has more implications than two straight men hugging each other.


Why are you so tunnel-visioned on this touching thing?

You don't say "hi, how are ya" and then go in for "a light grab", OK.

It should feel natural to you *in the moment*. Of course if you're thinking about it right now, it's like "_uhh, what the f***_" and seems odd, but if you're in the moment, you feel at ease, she feels at ease, and there's an air of attraction between you, it's the most natural thing.

You're not talking to a girl with the idea in mind "I need to touch her." If this is how you approach someone, then of course you're going to feel all awkward and uncomfortable and second-guess yourself. It's like a first kiss. It just happens. Because it feels right and natural *in the moment*.

When you touch your male friends, do you think about it beforehand and plan out how exactly you're going to touch them? No. It just happens. Well, this isn't really much different.

You don't need practice *casually touching girls*. You need practice *just talking to them* and feeling comfortable enough with them that a touch happens naturally.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

Just Lurking said:


> Why are you so tunnel-visioned on this touching thing?
> 
> You don't say "hi, how are ya" and then go in for "a light grab", OK.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm so "tunnel-vision"ed on it because I have social anxiety and that's how I see social interactions. I have a checklist of things that need to happen, and certain items on that checklist, like "initiate touch", are terrifying so I'm hyper-focused on when and how to do that. I don't think touching a woman will ever feel natural to me, I don't think if she initiated the touching that I'd feel natural or comfortable touching her back. Comfort in a social interaction is something I'm never going to experience.


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Optic Knight said:


> I guess I'm so "tunnel-vision"ed on it because I have social anxiety and that's how I see social interactions. I have a checklist of things that need to happen, and certain items on that checklist, like "initiate touch", are terrifying so I'm hyper-focused on when and how to do that. I don't think touching a woman will ever feel natural to me, I don't think if she initiated the touching that I'd feel natural or comfortable touching her back. Comfort in a social interaction is something I'm never going to experience.


It may be that you're getting ahead of yourself and that you need to work on improving your general social comfort before concerning yourself with dating.

Still, it can't hurt to just practice talking to girls.

Practice talking to them for no other reason than to have a conversation. Not for her number. Not for a date. Not for a touch. Not for anything at all but to have a conversation. You could start off with simple interactions like asking for the time or for directions somewhere and escalate from there as your comfort level improves.

What feels totally unnatural right now could improve over time, with dedicated practice.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Why do these threads always sound like someone is asking how to approach a wild animal?

I think the problem is that you aren't looking at women as human beings; ie. as persons, like yourself. You're looking at them as something strange and alien that has to be mastered. I have never in my life given any thought to how to break the "touch barrier" because I have never gotten to know someone with the sole purpose of trying to get them to sleep with me. I get to know people. If I like those people, I try to make them happy (instead of trying to make myself happy). And every once in a while, there is mutual attraction and you just start getting closer and closer until you reach a point where touching them doesn't freak them out -- because it's obvious that they're open to the possibility.

Picking up women for the sole purpose of having sex is hard because it's not the way relationships happen naturally. Humans did not evolve in an environment where available mating partners were completely unknown to them; they already knew the men and women living in their community and already had a history of interactions with them. This whole PUA "evopsych" game is bs; they're trying to isolate sexual attraction from community, and that separation never existed before large urban communities were established a few thousand years ago.

"Picking up" requires that you pretend to be interested in a person as a human being so that you can treat them like an object. And most women are very good at realizing when that is happening because it _doesn't_ feel natural. It feels ... wait for it ... _creepy_. Because you're sending them mixed signals that create the psychological equivalent of an uncanny valley experience: something that _almost_ looks like genuine human interest but isn't. The successful PUAs are either very good-looking (ie. the woman knows that he's only interested in sex, but decides the sex is worth it) or very good liars (ie. they trick women into thinking they're actually interested and then take advantage of them, which doesn't feel good if you're on the receiving end).

If you want to be a successful PUA either be very good-looking, or a very good liar. If you want a gf, you'll have to learn how to see women as people who are just like yourself, stop trying to game them, and just get to know them.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

truant said:


> Why do these threads always sound like someone is asking how to approach a wild animal?


Talking to women just like I talk to men is going to get me nowhere because I'm not trying to date or sleep with men. I'm not doing anything when I talk to men to try to create sexual attraction or lead them to the bedroom. So sure, I could never touch women, never take any risks, just keep my distance and talk about safe topics and just be completely platonic friends with women...but that's obviously not my goal.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Optic Knight said:


> It's not just knowing them for so long, it's also that they're guys and touches have no sexual implications behind them. When it's a man touching a woman though, it's automatically at least somewhat sexual. Even a slight touch on the elbow after a joke has more implications than two straight men hugging each other.


LOL oh you must be trolling now. Please for the sake of self preservation do not go up to a guy you don't really know and start touching him. Because they won't have the physical strength of a woman.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

Persephone The Dread said:


> LOL oh you must be trolling now. Please for the sake of self preservation do not go up to a guy you don't really know and start touching him. Because they won't have the physical strength of a woman.


I'm confused by your response. You know I'm talking about normal, non-intimate touching here? I have touched male strangers this way, putting my hand on their shoulder while talking, giving a light elbow jab after a joke, etc. I've never been hit, I've never had a bad reaction from that. It's pretty normal.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

Optic Knight said:


> Talking to women just like I talk to men is going to get me nowhere because I'm not trying to date or sleep with men. I'm not doing anything when I talk to men to try to create sexual attraction or lead them to the bedroom. So sure, I could never touch women, never take any risks, just keep my distance and talk about safe topics and just be completely platonic friends with women...but that's obviously not my goal.


Right, but what are you actually doing when you interact with women? Are you trying to gradually manipulate them into being attracted to you? Or are you being honest about your intentions?

A non-SA guy sees a woman he finds attractive. He walks over and says something like: "Can I buy you a drink?" or "Can I take you out for dinner sometime?", etc. He makes it _obvious_ what his intentions are right from the start. And by making it obvious, he treats her like a human being. He's not trying to magically induce attraction by employing psychological tricks, and he's not trying to sneak in the back door by pretending to be her friend.

But guys don't like this because, unless you're really good-looking, the rejection rates are unacceptable. So to "improve their odds", they try to trick women instead. Which is what PUA is all about: deception and manipulation. PUA tricks "evolved" to take advantage of an environment that humans have not evolved to mate in: large, anonymous urban communities.

Most men are in relationships, and most of those men did not get into their relationship by learning PUA. They got into their relationship the old-fashioned and natural way: by getting to know a woman through school or work or friends and at some point asking her out. That's how it normally works because that's how humans evolved: they got to know the partners available in their environment first, _as people,_ and then pursued mutual attraction.

The reason why SA guys are forced to employ PUA tactics is because their SA has destroyed their ability to create and sustain the kind of healthy social networks that allow non-SA men to meet and interact with women. You should be working on overcoming your SA first, so that you can start creating real social networks. Those real social networks create a dating pool of women who know you, or already know about you through other people. That doesn't mean you can't hit on strangers, just be honest about your intentions and have realistic expectations. A lot of women are going to have a very tough time feeling sympathetic about how difficult you find it to manipulate them.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

RagnarLothbrok said:


> The spinning handshake thing works, I've done it multiple times while on nights out; almost always I get a make-out or more just by escalating from it. Women like men being direct in their intentions. Obviously, it only works when a girl is in a specific environment and at a specific time when her natural defences are lowered (A weekend night on the street or at a nightclub).
> 
> The idea of cold approaches and learning game will get a lot of bad reactions on a forum like this because most of the people here don't go out at all (because of their SA). Girls wear makeup to improve their attractiveness. Guys use game to improve their attractiveness. Should a guy call a girl out for wearing makeup?


I haven't come across the spinning handshake, what is that?

Also, I know my use of these techniques is limited by the fact that I'm yet old enough to go to a bar or club.


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## TheWelshOne (Sep 29, 2013)

Optic Knight said:


> Talking to women just like I talk to men is going to get me nowhere because I'm not trying to date or sleep with men. I'm not doing anything when I talk to men to try to create sexual attraction or lead them to the bedroom. So sure, I could never touch women, never take any risks, just keep my distance and talk about safe topics and just be completely platonic friends with women...but that's obviously not my goal.


I believe the point that you're missing here is you do not decide who gets to be attracted to you. You don't date or sleep with men because they are not attracted to you (and you are not attracted to them). If a woman is attracted to you, you have an opportunity to date/sleep with her. If you talk to a woman naturally, as you do with men, she will be able to see your personality as your friends see it. They're your friends because they obviously like something about you. She will be your friend if she obviously likes something about you, but if she also sees something that sparks her attraction to you, you will get a date/sex. There's no need to try to *create* anything, because that's fake.

This is what we're all trying to get at with the 'be friends with women', 'treat them like humans' thing. It's not up to you whether she wants you, and a touch isn't going to magically change that. Approach a woman with interest - genuine interest - in getting to know her as a person. If there's sexual attraction, great; if not, you might get a female friend.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)

Forget the Spinning Handshake and go for the "Open palmed, I'm sorry I just got pushed from behind, boob squish."

Just like Colt 45, works everytime.

Look it up...totally legit.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

RagnarLothbrok said:


> The spinning handshake thing works in terms of cold approaches. I've done it multiple times while on nights out; almost always I get a make-out or more just by escalating from it. Women like men being direct in their intentions. Obviously, it only works when a girl is in a specific environment and at a specific time when her natural defences are lowered (A weekend night on the street or at a nightclub).
> 
> The idea of cold approaches and learning game will get a lot of bad reactions on a forum like this because most of the people here don't go out at all (because of their SA). Girls wear makeup to improve their attractiveness. Guys use game to improve their attractiveness. *Should a guy call a girl out for wearing makeup?*


Ironically that does happen a lot on this forum.

But most guys don't have to cold approach tbh like @truant said. I've never known any that had to and that includes stereotypically geeky guys who were not conventionally attractive. They were just sociable (well at least more than people on this forum probably are,) and met people through their social network and mutual friends.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

RagnarLothbrok said:


> Skip to around 8 and a half minutes in, or just watch the whole video haha. I'm probably gonna get called out for posting a video like this, but haters gonna hate.
> 
> Yeah, you're going to be limited by that sadly- you're going to have to approach girls through social circles or university societies until then.


I can't imagine having the balls to do that, but I think the idea of extending a handshake, or even turning into brief hand holding and using it to guide her somewhere is a good idea. In addition to establishing touch, that helps to put her in a more agreeable/compliant mindset right?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

Optic Knight said:


> I can't imagine having the balls to do that, but I think the idea of extending a handshake, or even *turning into brief hand holding and using it to guide her somewhere* is a good idea. In addition to establishing touch, that helps to put her in a more agreeable/compliant mindset right?


You should definitely consider living in a Korean drama.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

May as well enjoy the opcorn while it lasts.



Optic Knight said:


> I can't imagine having the balls to do that, but I think the idea of extending a handshake, or even turning into brief hand holding and using it to guide her somewhere is a good idea. In addition to establishing touch, that helps to put her in a more agreeable/compliant mindset right?


"Just let me guide you off the busy well-lit path and into this area of dark secluded undergrowth here..."
"Okies! I'll comply."

ETA:



Persephone The Dread said:


>


That was kind of hot...not for the reasons people in this thread might think, though. :lol


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

tehuti88 said:


> That was kind of hot...not for the reasons people in this thread might think, though. :lol


This was me reading your post

?? :blank

...

...

...










:lol

edit: I removed the second video because I realised it was buzzfeed and I can't... Plus the first one basically illustrates the trope I'm talking about.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

RagnarLothbrok said:


> Yeah I guess so, any form of touch which involves leading a girl somewhere will make her more attracted to you on a subconscious level (girls really like being led or told where their going). Just don't ever lead her back to an environment where she's been before, always lead to a new place because they usually want a new 'adventure' on a night out.


I wasn't thinking of taking her somewhere new or far away, just a few steps away where her friends or other guys wouldn't be interrupting. I doubt a woman would follow me off somewhere else just because I grabbed her hand.


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## RagnarLothbrok (Dec 16, 2016)

Optic Knight said:


> I wasn't thinking of taking her somewhere new or far away, just a few steps away where her friends or other guys wouldn't be interrupting. I doubt a woman would follow me off somewhere else just because I grabbed her hand.


You'd be surprised at what girls are willing to do, especially if you get her friends to come along with you or if you have a wingman to distract the friends.


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## The Library of Emma (Mar 3, 2016)

Optic Knight said:


> Talking to women just like I talk to men is going to get me nowhere because I'm not trying to date or sleep with men. I'm not doing anything when I talk to men to try to create sexual attraction or *lead them to the bedroom*. So sure, I could never touch women, never take any risks, just keep my distance and talk about safe topics and just be completely platonic friends with women...but that's obviously not my goal.


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## SofaKing (May 9, 2014)




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## iAmCodeMonkey (May 23, 2010)

LOL @ this thread.

Just act naturally dude, that is how my first date went. Don't force things, that will only lead to heartache.


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## iAmCodeMonkey (May 23, 2010)

She and Her Darkness said:


>





SofaKing said:


>


Holy ****, I am dying of laughter right now! :lol :haha


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## farfegnugen (Aug 16, 2010)

punch her in the gut, then you can help her back to her feet. If she's mad, just tell her that you had mistaken her for your mortal enemy whom you've sworn to destroy. If she can't get over it, then you know immediately she's not the right girl for you.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Optic Knight said:


> Do you walk around with your hands in your pockets to avoid accidentally touching anyone? When people are blocking your way onto the train do you stand there saying "excuse me, excuse me" or do you just lightly push on their shoulder to let them know you're coming through? The idea that any touch ever is absolutely forbidden until you get some explicit green light is absurd. Being a human in public involves the possibility of touch.


But your touch is obviously and completely to try to get laid. You know this, that is why you aren't practising this touching technique on men you just met.

If this touching is so innocuous then here is how you practise it:

1. Strike up conversations with men you don't know
2. Practise initiating touch with them

If that makes them uncomfortable, and it makes you uncomfortable, then guess what, its going to make women uncomfortable too _if it isn't wanted_.

I am not saying don't touch women, I am saying do it when its welcomed, when you get a green light. That isn't difficult if you can read body language. Evidently you can't read body language or you wouldn't have a problem knowing when to make physical contact, or you wouldn't be posting this thread.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> I am not saying don't touch women, I am saying do it when its welcomed, when you get a green light. *That isn't difficult if you can read body language. Evidently you can't read body language* or you wouldn't have a problem knowing when to make physical contact, or you wouldn't be posting this thread.


What is your point? That because I have social anxiety I should just accept that I'm never going to find love and to stop trying? Yes, touching women and escalating from meeting to intimacy doesn't come naturally to me at all - that's why I'm reading PUA books, that's why I'm asking this question. I'm not interested in the answer of just give up if it doesn't come naturally to you.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

Optic Knight said:


> What is your point? That because I have social anxiety I should just accept that I'm never going to find love and to stop trying? Yes, touching women and escalating from meeting to intimacy doesn't come naturally to me at all - that's why I'm reading PUA books, that's why I'm asking this question. I'm not interested in the answer of just give up if it doesn't come naturally to you.


How on earth did you get "give up" from my response and not "learn to read body language"?


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

splendidbob said:


> *How on earth did you get "give up" from my response* and not "learn to read body language"?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder

+

projection (probably.)


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

splendidbob said:


> How on earth did you get "give up" from my response and not "learn to read body language"?


Because when I said the goal is to touch her and see how she reacts you objected to that!


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Just Lurking said:


> It may be that you're getting ahead of yourself and that you need to work on improving your general social comfort before concerning yourself with dating.
> 
> Still, it can't hurt to just practice talking to girls.
> 
> ...


Highly underrated advice.

Women are people, interact with them like they are people, they like to be treated like people.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

Persephone The Dread said:


> LOL oh you must be trolling now. Please for the sake of self preservation do not go up to a guy you don't really know and start touching him. Because they won't have the physical strength of a woman.


I have to admit that was quite funny (it's the look after the touch that sells it). I can proudly say I'd be one of the guys that looks very confused then starts laughing and not so proud to say that when I was younger I would have wanted to fight him (ah immaturity, I knew thee well).


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

Optic Knight said:


> *Even if they won't say "don't touch me" they should at least give off signs of being uncomfortable if I touch them and they didn't want that*. If they won't even do that, then honestly it's their own fault at that point. I can't go through life assuming that everyone is so frightened that they won't even express discomfort, it's not like I'm going up to women with a gun on my belt or trapping them in a secluded room.


Maybe they *are* giving off signs that some people would notice but that *you aren't noticing*.

Have you ever thought about that? (I'm not trying to be rude here - we don't know you.)


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

RagnarLothbrok said:


> Skip to around 8 and a half minutes in, or just watch the whole video haha. I'm probably gonna get called out for posting a video like this, but haters gonna hate.
> 
> Yeah, you're going to be limited by that sadly- you're going to have to get to know girls through social circles or university societies until then. Build up your knowledge of game early and you'll start doing well with women.


I guess I'm just a hater but I can only imagine how low my self esteem would have to be for me to think I needed to use tricks for women to be attracted to me. Not saying that it won't work but thinking you actually deserve attention will work better.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

harrison said:


> Maybe they *are* giving off signs that some people would notice but that *you aren't noticing*.
> 
> Have you ever thought about that? (I'm not trying to be rude here - we don't know you.)


I've never even touched a woman yet!


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

farfegnugen said:


> punch her in the gut, then you can help her back to her feet. If she's mad, just tell her that you had mistaken her for your mortal enemy whom you've sworn to destroy. If she can't get over it, then you know immediately she's not the right girl for you.


:laugh:


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## harrison (Apr 14, 2012)

Optic Knight said:


> I've never even touched a woman yet!


We can see that - assuming you're telling the truth here.

I was just making the point that maybe you have other issues that we don't know about - like being on the Autism spectrum and so you're ability to read social cues are affected. A number of people on here seem to have that problem and it's impossible to tell unless you either tell us or we could see you. (which we obviously can't)

The other possibility is that you're just totally inexperienced - like you say.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

harrison said:


> We can see that - assuming you're telling the truth here.
> 
> I was just making the point that maybe you have other issues that we don't know about - like being on the Autism spectrum and so you're ability to read social cues are affected. A number of people on here seem to have that problem and it's impossible to tell unless you either tell us or we could see you. (which we obviously can't)
> 
> The other possibility is that you're just totally inexperienced - like you say.


I'm just not understanding how this went from me asking how to go about making physical contact, to you assuming that I'm already making physical contact and not knowing when to stop. I am quite sure that if a woman was upset that I touched her I'd notice. I'm very aware of when people are not happy with me, it's my default assumption actually.


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

Optic Knight said:


> Pick up advice usually involves escalating physical contact from something simple like touching an arm or hand to gradually reach kissing. But, when you read these books like the game or other pick up sites, they give you these ridiculous methods like reading her palm or asking for high fives for stupid reasons. Whenever I read these methods of making the initial touch, it just seems so ridiculous like any woman is going to either see right through it or assume I'm autistic for trying that. How do you actually start touching women and how fast do you go from the safer touches to more risky touch?


My approach is a context appropriate touch. If I meet a woman at a mall, for example, at some point in our conversation I could suggest we take a walk towards "x" store. If she agrees I could lightly touch her back to guide her towards the right direction. If she verbally and/or non-verbally seems put off by this touch, I would withdraw that touch and try again later. But if she seems receptive to me guiding her like that I might just leave my hand back there. I've never actually tried to pick up a woman at a mall though. I'm more of a night night person. The main point is to first establish some emotional connection and then try some touch appropriate to the level of that connection. Following that, is to read her reaction to that touch - and withdraw your touch/attention if she is not receptive and possibly try again later.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I've been to a few meetups where one or two guys would touch my upper arm. It was kind of creepy and unnerving. I've heard similar from other women. They like to do it especially during group photos.


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## Mondo_Fernando (Jun 26, 2014)

Optic Knight said:


> Pick up advice usually involves escalating physical contact from something simple like touching an arm or hand to gradually reach kissing. But, when you read these books like the game or other pick up sites, they give you these ridiculous methods like reading her palm or asking for high fives for stupid reasons. Whenever I read these methods of making the initial touch, it just seems so ridiculous like any woman is going to either see right through it or assume I'm autistic for trying that. How do you actually start touching women and how fast do you go from the safer touches to more risky touch?


Can play touch rugby with women (mixed team).

In my life experiences in real life women initiate the touch or wanting more than that.

Basically the golden rule is you do not touch a woman without her permission.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

RagnarLothbrok said:


> Well yeah, I admit my self-esteem was shot to **** after years of rejection and friend-zoning from women. Admittedly it was my fault all along for being clueless as to what women are attracted to. I believed that just being a good guy, having friends, hobbies, being funny would make me a good catch (obviously those things are important but there are other things which turn on a woman more).
> 
> It's more a faremwork of using methods to approach and talk to girls on a night out (I was clueless about how this works because my friends I've gone out were clueless too). Obviously they're not foolproof, and not one approach will work on every individual woman. Learning game does not usually lead to long term relationships, if you're a guy who wants to get laid sometimes, it can work.


Good response.

I wasn't sure what to expect when I saw you'd replied but I'm pleasantly surprised.

I'm pleased to see you used the past tense when referring to your low self-esteem, that's good. If I was going to try and find something worthwhile with the whole PUA approach it would be that you're allowed to take risks and sometimes those risks can pay off. Unfortunately what seems to be being "learnt" is that you can manipulate (as opposed to convincing) women into liking you, that they don't actually have any agency.

I'm glad you made progress all the same.


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## relm1 (Sep 13, 2016)

Optic Knight said:


> I guess I'm so "tunnel-vision"ed on it because I have social anxiety and that's how I see social interactions. I have a checklist of things that need to happen, and certain items on that checklist, like "initiate touch", are terrifying so I'm hyper-focused on when and how to do that. I don't think touching a woman will ever feel natural to me, I don't think if she initiated the touching that I'd feel natural or comfortable touching her back. Comfort in a social interaction is something I'm never going to experience.


Why don't you work on your SA first? Otherwise after this thread has run its course you will create a thread about "how do you break the hold hand barrier?" and then "how do you break the first kiss barrier?". These things will get harder because your SA is unchecked and your approach seems to be about appeasing the anxiety rather than treating it.


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

relm1 said:


> Why don't you work on your SA first? Otherwise after this thread has run its course you will create a thread about "how do you break the hold hand barrier?" and then "how do you break the first kiss barrier?". These things will get harder because your SA is unchecked and your approach seems to be about appeasing the anxiety rather than treating it.


Excellent post. I think this actually applies to a lot of people here, myself included, which is why so many of the "How do I get a significant other?" threads perplex me. (Cart before horse...?)

There are some users who insist their "social anxiety is cured," but they still show many signs of not just anxiety ("I can't/don't talk to the opposite sex"--what do they think that is?), but misunderstanding of social cues as well--even when they insist they understand such things--and that should be worked on, too. (I know--I'm one of those people who _thought_ I understood social interactions, but apparently I don't get them as well as I thought I did.)

Unfortunately I doubt your post will be heeded. :/


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

tehuti88 said:


> Excellent post. I think this actually applies to a lot of people here, myself included, which is why so many of the "How do I get a significant other?" threads perplex me. (Cart before horse...?)
> 
> There are some users who insist their "social anxiety is cured," but they still show many signs of not just anxiety ("I can't/don't talk to the opposite sex"--what do they think that is?), but misunderstanding of social cues as well--even when they insist they understand such things--and that should be worked on, too. (I know--I'm one of those people who _thought_ I understood social interactions, but apparently I don't get them as well as I thought I did.)
> 
> Unfortunately I doubt your post will be heeded. :/


I have to say I disagree with this sentiment, as I have repeatedly stated before. :laugh:

The idea that normal people deserve relationships because they have their s*** together is clearly a fallacy. So if those imperfect people can have relationships why can't you/we?

If I'm honest, I think it's mainly an excuse to explain not trying. Try to overcome your difficulties, of course, but if someone is willing to take a chance on you despite your issues don't let fear stop you from seeing what can happen (I can already hear what your response might be, but think about it hypothetically ).


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

LonelyLurker said:


> I have to say I disagree with this sentiment, as I have repeatedly stated before. :laugh:
> 
> The idea that normal people deserve relationships because they have their s*** together is clearly a fallacy. So if those imperfect people can have relationships why can't you/we?
> 
> If I'm honest, I think it's mainly an excuse to explain not trying. Try to overcome your difficulties, of course, but if someone is willing to take a chance on you despite your issues don't let fear stop you from seeing what can happen (I can already hear what your response might be, but think about it hypothetically ).


I don't think anyone "deserves" a relationship (I'm not sure how I gave that impression?), but I think that if one has problems, especially where it comes to interacting with other people, they really should work on those first instead of wondering, "Why doesn't anybody like me?" (I really do think a lot of people here are in denial of their social problems, and so they blame others instead.)

If there's somebody willing to accept a person who has issues, that's great, but I don't think anybody should _expect_ such a thing to happen often. It's probably pretty rare, and often leads to disappointment. I've experienced this numerous times platonically.

I'm afraid the romantic experience will have to remain hypothetical in my case. People don't accept me that way. :stu


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

How about not wasting time reading guides but actually thinking of this yourself..?

Why? Because you will see what comes naturally and learn to THINK for yourself.
Chances are things don't happen the way they are described in whatever guides you are reading.

Think of it like a martial art: You can practice a perfect technique and know every bit of it (in theory), but when it comes to using it in practice, it NEVER works out the same way it is described; every opponent is different, every situation is different.

You can read in order to get a broad and general understanding of things, but never a step-by-step guide. How to approach a specific situation comes from understanding, which comes from practice and experience.

Also, remember that what might work for 99.99999% of the population, might not work for you.


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## LonelyLurker (Sep 24, 2016)

tehuti88 said:


> I don't think anyone "deserves" a relationship (I'm not sure how I gave that impression?), but I think that if one has problems, especially where it comes to interacting with other people, they really should work on those first instead of wondering, "Why doesn't anybody like me?" (I really do think a lot of people here are in denial of their social problems, and so they blame others instead.)
> 
> If there's somebody willing to accept a person who has issues, that's great, but I don't think anybody should _expect_ such a thing to happen often. It's probably pretty rare, and often leads to disappointment. I've experienced this numerous times platonically.


Well, if you think that people shouldn't enter relationships until they have solved their issues it stands to reason that you would believe that those with issues shouldn't have (are not worthy of) relationships, can't have it both ways. 

There's a difference between being deserving/worthy of something and being owed/entitled to it. Most people have issues, most people have relationships, don't romanticise the average person, I think you may be grossly overestimating their social skills. From what I've seen, most people are fairly poor at communicating/understanding others, they're just good enough to get by.



tehuti88 said:


> I'm afraid the romantic experience will have to remain hypothetical in my case. People don't accept me that way. :stu


I knew it was coming.:laugh: (I hope you understand that I'm not laughing at your situation)


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

relm1 said:


> Why don't you work on your SA first? Otherwise after this thread has run its course you will create a thread about "how do you break the hold hand barrier?" and then "how do you break the first kiss barrier?". These things will get harder because your SA is unchecked and your approach seems to be about appeasing the anxiety rather than treating it.


I think this is a misunderstanding of what SA is and how it works. I can't just cure SA and then suddenly I'm a normal person with no trouble socializing....I have to learn each and every thing, and gradually work my way into learning each of these steps of socializing. So sure, up next will be how to hold hands, how to kiss, how to have sex, how to propose, how to walk the aisle, etc. and slowly I'll work towards being normal.


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## Optic Knight (Aug 13, 2017)

Raies said:


> How about not wasting time reading guides but actually thinking of this yourself..?
> 
> Why? Because you will see what comes naturally and learn to THINK for yourself.


Like I said a few times, that's silly. What comes naturally for someone with SA is to just stay alone for the rest of their life and never have sex or a girlfriend. I'm not interested in advice to just give up.



Raies said:


> Chances are things don't happen the way they are described in whatever guides you are reading.
> 
> Think of it like a martial art: You can practice a perfect technique and know every bit of it (in theory), but when it comes to using it in practice, it NEVER works out the same way it is described; every opponent is different, every situation is different.


Clearly someone who practiced martial arts is going to have a much easier time defending themselves than someone who's never trained and just throws whatever punch comes naturally.


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## Raies (Nov 3, 2016)

Optic Knight said:


> Like I said a few times, that's silly. What comes naturally for someone with SA is to just stay alone for the rest of their life and never have sex or a girlfriend. I'm not interested in advice to just give up.


Actually, you are wrong. You have the urge to do something which is then covered by fear.

"I want to say something but I am afraid to"
"I want to stand up for myself" - but fear prevents it.

The actions caused by social anxiety are due to fear, not incompetence. Anxiety can however cause incompetence, at which case we would arrive at a different topic.
If you are socially incompetent, feel free to find help for it. But do make the distinction between that and anxiety.



> Clearly someone who practiced martial arts is going to have a much easier time defending themselves than someone who's never trained and just throws whatever punch comes naturally.


That's beyond the point, though.

It's like saying clearly someone who practices flirting is better at it.. Well.. Duh...

My point was, that it is unlikely that you will find decent tips that you can seem natural doing from guides and books, more like broad tips. Just like someone who does train martial arts, will probably be better at recognizing/analyzing situations in fights, but won't necessarily be able to react in the correct way as they haven't practiced in the right way.






There's a plethora of similar videos on the internet. Yes, these techniques could work and be used.
But because there's no actual experience in real situation, you won't necessarily get to use them. And the way you get to use your skills is trying them in practice (but it's bad to start learning the practice when you are being stabbed, so it's better do so before you get into real danger, and then know how to use them in the real situation)


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## relm1 (Sep 13, 2016)

@*Optic Knight*, Actually, why don't you ditch your get a woman books and website and change your books to this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MQCLJMS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 I read it and it is good for social anxiety dating unlike the resources you read which are unhelpful.


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## SwtSurrender (Nov 24, 2014)

She has to touch you first, but if she doesn't then you lose her. Or she waits for you to touch her but you never know when. I was always touching people inappropriately on first dates when I was high and they liked it. If you're ever high then you should go right ahead. But high guys touching girls first depends on the girl's mood/if she likes you. There were many guys I didn't like when I was high and I didn't touch them, and when they asked for permission to touch me I was still disgusted. It all depends, I guess. Now-a-days I just don't touch anyone anymore, except in my fantasies. Maybe in the future, there will be moments when I feel high and like someone and I just go right ahead and grab their hand? You have to be spontaneous and risky and experience trial and errors to have done something ey?


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## Visionary (Apr 13, 2010)

Well, I'm officially creeped out.


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## SplendidBob (May 28, 2014)

You ask politely "may I please break the touch barrier?" If they say yes, then cup the lower half of their face with your hands and say "mmmmmmmmmmmm".


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