# Women, what is your stance on chivalry?



## Lifetimer (May 16, 2004)

I'd like to know what women REALLY think about chivalry -- such as when a guy opens a car door for you, or when he pulls the chair out for you. Do women really like it when a guy does these type of things? Or would you rather that he not do these things? I almost get the feeling women think these type of actions are too old-fashioned and would prefer men not do those things. However, since I am not a woman, I don't know.

Ladies, let us guys know where you stand on this issue.


Lifetimer


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## laura024 (Aug 11, 2006)

Well I like it. It makes me think he is a courteous gentleman.


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## Fiera (Sep 1, 2005)

I don't know why but it makes me uncomfortable when a guy does that.


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## Johnny1234 (Nov 16, 2006)

Ive never seen a woman who doesnt like when you open the door for her and pull the chair out.


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## Fiera (Sep 1, 2005)

Johnny1234 said:


> Ive never seen a woman who doesnt like when you open the door for her and pull the chair out.


Maybe it's just an S.A. thing for me? :stu It's true, I know other women who like it though


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## Futures (Aug 27, 2005)

I'm not a girl, but I'd like to throw in my .02.

I personally think that type of behavior is a bit silly. No guy would keep up that behavior for long anyway. How many married guys do you see opening car doors for their wife? :lol

Also, if you do it, women will label you as being _too_ nice, which we all know is not a good thing.


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## leppardess (Nov 8, 2003)

Personally, it's nice when guys do that but I don't expect it. At one time, I did expect it and when they stopped doing it, it was just disappointing. Although, things like holding a door open for someone is more like common courtesy than chivalry. I hold doors open for people all the time :stu


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## Becky (Nov 5, 2003)

leppardess said:


> Personally, it's nice when guys do that but I don't expect it. At one time, I did expect it and when they stopped doing it, it was just disappointing. Although, things like holding a door open for someone is more like common courtesy than chivalry. I hold doors open for people all the time :stu


 :ditto However, it would be really nice if my future husband would start opening the car door for me. I don't know about pulling a chair out for me though, knowing him he'd pull it right out from under me just to watch me fall on my butt. :lol I guess little things like that aren't really a big deal to me. I do expect him to do the manly stuff around the house like take out trash and mow. I do the woman stuff like wash dishes, clean toilets, and mop.


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## NightinGale (Oct 27, 2005)

Holding open doors and pulling out chairs is so sweet, and makes a great first impression. Shows a lot of class. Thumbs up to chivalry all the way. If a woman doesn't like it it's because A.) she's not used to being treated that way and doesn't know how to simply say "thank you" to kind gestures, or B.) she's a bit of a feminist who doesn't like old-fashioned things that some may deem as "sexist".

Hey, I'm guilty of it, too. I can't carry ANYTHING into the warehouse at my job without someone offering to help me and that normally pisses me off (because I think they're doing it b/c I'm a woman). But, hey, if he's cute, then I'll let him help and think he's dashing for doing so.


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## Whimsy (Mar 16, 2006)

I like it especially when the door in question is really heavy!


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

I'm not a woman but I hate chivalry

I won't date any woman who believes that they deserve something because they happened to be born female.

It's not called "being nice" or "courteous" when he wouldn't be doing it if you were a man.


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2006)

vicente said:


> I'm not a woman but I hate chivalry
> 
> *I won't date any woman who believes that they deserve* something because they happened to be born female.
> 
> It's not called "being nice" or "courteous" when he wouldn't be doing it if you were a man.


With me it's the other way round. A few months ago I was getting to know some guy. When he finally asked me to go for a coffee together he opened a door but then walked through it first! LOL, it totally put me off. I never called him after that.


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

Lisa1975 said:


> With me it's the other way round. A few months ago I was getting to know some guy. When he finally asked me to go for a coffee together he opened a door but then walked through it first! LOL, it totally put me off. I never called him after that.


That is what scares me about dating. Just making one little insignificant mistake would ruin it all.

Especially when the guy probably didn't do it on purpose, or didn't realize that he wasn't supposed to do that at the time.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

I went to a rather conservative college and all the guys were pretty diligent about opening and holding doors for females. Some would even wait if you were walking a bit behind them. I felt acknowledged as a woman and not just a person so I appreciated it. However, now I'm used to holding the door because I'm usually with my sister and she's much prettier than I am so she gets to go first.


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## Johnny1234 (Nov 16, 2006)

Lisa1975 said:


> vicente said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a woman but I hate chivalry
> ...


You must be kidding, right? You would not date a guy because he did not hold the door open for you?


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Lisa1975 said:


> vicente said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a woman but I hate chivalry
> ...


First, how is that that the opposite of what I said?

And secondly, would you think that he would get offended if you opened a door and let yourself in first?

Come on people, are doors and chairs so heavy and women so fragile and delicate that they would prefer that their men do it for them?


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## Lifetimer (May 16, 2004)

LostInReverie said:


> However, now I'm used to holding the door because I'm usually with my sister and she's much prettier than I am so she gets to go first.


Libby -- I find it odd that you feel the need to hold the door for your sister just because you think she is prettier than you. If anyone felt the need to open the door for your sister, I figured it would be a guy. And, you say your sister is much prettier than you? I emphatically state ... That is not possible.

Libby, by the way, this is the first time I've visited this forum in a while and I've noticed you changed your forum name to LostInReverie. Any particular reason?

Lifetimer


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Eh, I do it more because I'm older and that's how I did it when she was little.

My sister is gorgeous and I'm not attractive in the least bit.

I changed my name for paranoia reasons because my first username identified me.


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## starblob (Oct 23, 2005)

boredomreigns said:


> I don't know why but it makes me uncomfortable when a guy does that.


Same here.


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## Vincenzo (Sep 24, 2005)

I hold doors open for everyone and let them go through first but that's just general politeness. Actually walking around to the other side of the car to open a girl's door or pulling out her chair is being a tool, I'd feel ridiculous doing it.


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## Volume (Apr 8, 2007)

When it comes to women I have sexual interest in, I won't. "Nice guy" is not the first impression I want to make.


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## Becky (Nov 5, 2003)

vicente said:


> Come on people, are doors and chairs so heavy and women so fragile and delicate that they would prefer that their men do it for them?


Yes! :b


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## embers (Dec 19, 2006)

There is something about doing those things that make a woman feel a certain way. Of course we can open our own doors, but its hard to describe the feeling. Maybe its trust, if the guy who's doing it really wants to do it, and not putting on an act. Like, maybe in the future, he'll be caring and attentive in other ways. Which is what we kinda want I guess. 

For all of you guys who refuse to do it, just think of it as the first step in getting laid.


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## Shauna The Dead (Jun 16, 2005)

I like it when guys do those things, but it's rare when they do...but the rare guys that do these things...it's nice of them. It's so rude when they just let the door almost practically slam in your face! I'm not a guy and I try not to even do that. I hold the door for more guys than they do for me, probably. So many times I've kinda expected them to be nice and at least not let the damn door slam in my face, but plenty of times...they would just let it slam in my face if I didn't catch it. :roll So I don't even expect it anymore. I'm always cautious to make sure I catch the door before it bashes my face in. haha


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## Vincenzo (Sep 24, 2005)

It's not nice, it's unbelievably corny and ****ing stupid. Any guy who does it is just doing so because he's putting on a ridiculous show. I mean, I know most of the guys who do it take on a tongue in cheek, winking attitude to make it look less foolish, but even then it's ****ing retarded.

I'm probably just saying this because it's not my style because I have an incredibly low threshold for this kind of ****, but Christ...why why why??

edit: I'm not talking about common courtesy things like holding doors open, which obviously I do, but things like opening her car door and pulling out her chair.


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## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

i open doors for my gf and sometimes pull out her chair but i would never open my car door for her.


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## sprinter (Nov 22, 2003)

What about revolving doors? Do you go in together or let her go in first and then you go in behind the next opening or do you go first and let her fend for herself. What happens if you misjudge when you are supposed to exit the door and end up back outside? I hate when that happens. Thankfully there's not many revolving doors.


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## embers (Dec 19, 2006)

Vincenzo said:


> It's not nice, it's unbelievably corny and @#%$ stupid. Any guy who does it is just doing so because he's putting on a ridiculous show. I mean, I know most of the guys who do it take on a tongue in cheek, winking attitude to make it look less foolish, but even then it's @#%$ retarded.
> 
> I'm probably just saying this because it's not my style because I have an incredibly low threshold for this kind of @#%$, but Christ...why why why??
> 
> edit: I'm not talking about common courtesy things like holding doors open, which obviously I do, but things like opening her car door and pulling out her chair.


Its a prelude to something more. You have to knock down alot of barriers with women to get to the heart, which will make the sex a whole lot better. It's sad men don't know this. I hope this post wasn't too sexual.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

sprinter said:


> What about revolving doors? Do you go in together or let her go in first and then you go in behind the next opening or do you go first and let her fend for herself. What happens if you misjudge when you are supposed to exit the door and end up back outside? I hate when that happens. Thankfully there's not many revolving doors.


This is hilarious (I apologize if you didn't mean it to be).

Embers, don't lose hope in all men because of the posts on SAS


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## Vincenzo (Sep 24, 2005)

embers said:


> Vincenzo said:
> 
> 
> > It's not nice, it's unbelievably corny and @#%$ stupid. Any guy who does it is just doing so because he's putting on a ridiculous show. I mean, I know most of the guys who do it take on a tongue in cheek, winking attitude to make it look less foolish, but even then it's @#%$ retarded.
> ...


I don't get why you want a guy to go through the motions of some incredibly toolish and archaic act in order to secure sex. Like, I have absolutely no scruples about cynically doing things in order to get laid, but the fact that women acknowledge the redundancy of these things and like for men to do them anyway only reinforces my misogyny.


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## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

I think it's old fashioned, and it seems a little demeaning. That's just my opinion. 


Vincenzo said:


> and pulling out her chair.


hahaha, yeah... I went out to dinner a few weeks ago, and a guy pulled a chair out for me to sit in. Me, being the socially competent inspiration that I am, actually _walked through _the gap he made between the chair and the table, pulled out the chair next to it for myself, and sat down. I am such a *****. I didn't realize that he had pulled the chair out for me until he awkwardly said, "uh...I guess I'll just sit in this chair." haha. 
If I were any higher on the autistic spectrum, I would be reciting the entire phone book from memory.


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## embers (Dec 19, 2006)

Vincenzo said:


> embers said:
> 
> 
> > Vincenzo said:
> ...


I didn't say it secured sex at all. These are tokens that bridge that gap between two genders coming from polar opposites. The woman feels all warm, secure, cared for, respected, and that connection happens between a man and a woman. I also mentioned, if he's _not _ just going through the motions, but really wants that connection to happen too.

Be civilized, set the mood or else we're gonna think you're a bunch of animals who just want to mount us.

Do you honestly think a gal who had any respect for herself, would swoon over you if you had the attitude "pulling out chairs is for chumps, paying for dinner is for chumps, do it yourself sista! By the way, sex..later...yeh?"

Yeh _right_!

If any gal agrees to get with a guy who has this attitude, she is not secure in herself, and figures sex will get him and hold him.

And LostinReverie, i'm not losing hope because of SAS, probably mostly from my experiences, esp this last one. I will explore that later though...for now, these guys need to learn manners!


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## Inturmal (Jan 15, 2006)

Drella said:


> Me, being the socially competent inspiration that I am, actually _walked through _the gap he made between the chair and the table, pulled out the chair next to it for myself, and sat down.


 :lol

I hate chivalry. Women get no special treatment from me. 
The only time I'll open a car door for someone, or pull out their chair, is if they're physically unable to do so themselves (maybe they're handicapped, or have something in their hands). It's so stupid just to do it for the sake of doing. I cringe and feel embarassed for people that behave that way.


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## Vincenzo (Sep 24, 2005)

A solid 'LOL' for the autistic spectrum / phone book remark



 embers said:


> I didn't say it secured sex at all. These are tokens that bridge that gap between two genders coming from polar opposites. The woman feels all warm, secure, cared for, respected, and that connection happens between a man and a woman. I also mentioned, if he's _not _ just going through the motions, but really wants that connection to happen too.
> 
> Be civilized, set the mood or else we're gonna think you're a bunch of animals who just want to mount us.
> 
> ...


I tend to pay for the evening's drinks or whatever, I just don't go out of my way to make ridiculous gestures like opening the car door. Like, it is actually rare that this kind of thing comes into play because the only way I can get female contact is at parties with the aid of drugs and alcohol, but on the rare occasions I do engage in halfway traditional dating, I don't consider that old fashioned stuff.

How is pulling out a chair even comparable to footing the bill? The latter is common courtesy, the former is a cheesy, wince-inducing gesture that the guy goes out of his way to do in the hope of portaying an image of a traditional gentleman.


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## embers (Dec 19, 2006)

Vincenzo said:


> A solid 'LOL' for the autistic spectrum / phone book remark
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's a different less corny perspective -- When guys assert their control, it makes us feel secure. He can assert himself in many ways, whichever makes him feel comfortable. if its not pulling out a chair, then maybe something else. its not the gesture itself, but the deeper meaning and the feeling and mood it creates.

Old fashioned gestures were put into place for a reason. A gal feels respected and protected so she can take it to the next level, which is intimacy. It gives her a sense of "safeness", she lets down her guard more. Guys are ever-ready for intimacy, but it takes us time to warm up. This is where its a payoff for you, not saying you do these things solely to get her into bed, but if you really like a gal, isn't it kinda worth it if she's on the same page as you when the time comes...sorta...make it more meaningful?

Thats why people don't last in this day and age, chivalry is now "cheesy"...I must admit at times when a guy would open a door,, I would roll my eyes inside, because he was doing it for all the wrong reasons! But it makes me sort of weak (in a good way) when a guy does this because he knows its the right thing to do. Again, it depends on the two of you. If the attraction is there, playing the roles will make the experience more rich. full stop, debating makes me crazy, shall we agree to disagree?

edit to say this is the downfall of society, men not stepping up. Women feel they have to resort to our god given gift of manipulation by using sex to hold onto a man. Or....if that doesn't work, how about lying about being on birth control and trapping them? Notice all the unwed mothers suddenly popping up all over the place. I have dated handfuls of single dads who have said they were trapped and I have a friend who trapped someone using this method. My mother even suggested I do this! Its now considered the norm!


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

Drella Wrote:


> Me, being the socially competent inspiration that I am, actually walked through the gap he made between the chair and the table, pulled out the chair next to it for myself, and sat down.


LOL, OMG. You have got to be kidding? That is not autism, that is smart-*** Savant.

Seriously, that is interesting. Was it the attention to you that caught you off guard and made you feel uncomfortable?

I'm pro chivalry but it's a two way street. I like it when the woman returns the favor. I don't want to lead some woman around like she's helpless, yuck. Rarely the car door. Depends on how formal. Once you get out into the work world you'll take respect because it's a nice change to the SOP of rudeness. IMO.


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## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

FairleighCalm said:


> Was it the attention to you that caught you off guard and made you feel uncomfortable?


No... I'm just an idiot who was completely oblivious to the fact that he was pulling the chair out for me. Our waitress had to grab another chair for our table because one was missing. In the meantime, he pulled a chair out (I thought he was going to sit in it), so I simply walked through it to get around to the one the waitress added to our table, since there was no room for me to walk behind it. I thought he was pulling the chair out for himself, and was waiting so that I could get to the other one. I am the epitome of social awkwardness.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

I am in full agreement with embers. Women want romance much more than just sex and if you expect to get what you want without giving what she wants then you're on your own. It's give and take.


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## mserychic (Oct 2, 2004)

How the frilly heck is pulling out a chair romantic? It's just weird and well stupid.


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## davemason2k (Feb 11, 2005)

Kori, If I ever meet you in public, I will put a chair out for you just to spite you! Then I will laugh and we will have a glorious time drinking large amounts of alcohol. The end


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## mserychic (Oct 2, 2004)

I'd totally get you back by locking you in my car until I could walk around and open yr door :lol


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

Pulling out a chair for a woman or running ahead of her to open the door or taking off her jacket or coat or whatever isn't romantic -- it's feigned help. Are you ladies not able to open a door for yourselves? Are you holding something heavy with both arms? Do you know how to operate a door? Is this so-called romanticism really making you feel secure? What is it providing? Nothing. They're meaningless gestures that men engage in to feign help. On an individual level, we men may not think of it that way, but that is what it looks like to me on a collective level. It's saying on collective level: "HA ah, we fooled you into thinking these feigned acts of kindness are substantial." It's saying that we care about you. How the hell is pulling out a chair for you caring about you? It seems condescending to me. "Hey, look, you stupid *****: I'm helping you get seated when you are perfectly capable of seating yourself." These actions hark back to a time when women were completely dependent on men. Why would you gals want to perpetuate these traditions superficially (a guy seating a girl, getting ahead of her to open the door for her, taking her coat off, etc.) when it is no longer the case substantially (women can vote now, run for office, run businesses, albeit with vestigial road blocks that are, however, increasingly more like bumps than blocks).


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

Wait a minute! *looks down to check* I'm a guy! Why in the hell would I want us to do away with superficial, feigned, help, if it can get me in bed with some chick! Damned liberal professors are turning me against my own interests. For the sake of my penis, I need to think more in terms of the interests of men than in the interests of equality and respect for women, whether collectively or individually.

Want me to carry out these superficial actions? Fine with me -- as long as you give me something in return. *looks down appreciatively and remembers who he is -- a horny 20-something-year-old guy* :troll :lol :afr


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## mserychic (Oct 2, 2004)

Cerberus said:


> Pulling out a chair for a woman or running ahead of her to open the door or taking off her jacket or coat or whatever isn't romantic -- it's feigned help. Are you ladies not able to open a door for yourselves? Are you holding something heavy with both arms? Do you know how to operate a door? Is this so-called romanticism really making you feel secure? What is it providing? Nothing. They're meaningless gestures that men engage in to feign help. On an individual level, we men may not think of it that way, but that is what it looks like to me on a collective level. It's saying on collective level: "HA ah, we fooled you into thinking these feigned acts of kindness are substantial." It's saying that we care about you. How the hell is pulling out a chair for you caring about you? It seems condescending to me. "Hey, look, you stupid *****: I'm helping you get seated when you are perfectly capable of seating yourself." These actions hark back to a time when women were completely dependent on men. Why would you gals want to perpetuate these traditions superficially (a guy seating a girl, getting ahead of her to open the door for her, taking her coat off, etc.) when it is no longer the case substantially (women can vote now, run for office, run businesses, albeit with vestigial road blocks that are, however, increasingly more like bumps than blocks).


:nw :nw :nw

That's what I was thinking but couldn't come up with the right words.


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## embers (Dec 19, 2006)

Thank you LostinReverie

And mserychic and everyone else who seems to be concentrating on the 'pulling out the chair' scenario, its not just pull out chair, she plops down, weird, awkward, robot robot, get it over with type deal...here's another perspective!

Lets say you and your date have this awesome attraction towards one another, its there, no denying it. Pulling out the chair is an opportunity for the other person to get close to you. They pull out your chair or if you're the guy or the one who is asserting the control, you pull out the chair for her...she sits down. You then feel each other's energy close up, the presence, building on that attraction. You get to feel the strength of the other person pushing your chair in and them brushing against you, etc. You're building a connection here.

Its a chance to get in each other's space without pushing the boundaries. The dinner and conversation will be more fluid, you will feel more comfortable, a little trust and intense attraction makes things flow.

Then walk her to her car, lean by her, brush against her, smell her perfume, she smells your cologne, again in each others energy, again building trust, showing strength, creating the bond between two people leading to a joyful time in the bedroom, or not...its just sort of an intoxicating thing happening between two people.

If you're concentrating on the act itself, well yeh, of course its gonna be awkward because I don't think any of us are too silly to think we can't pull out chairs and open doors for ourselves.

i'm fighting a losing battle here it seems. I shall reiterate the all so true cliche "chivalry is dead...indeed." 

full stop for realsies


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

embers said:


> If you're concentrating on the act itself, well yeh, of course its gonna be awkward because I don't think any of us are too silly to think we can't pull out chairs and open doors for ourselves.


Yes, if you're not trying to be romantic then by all means please do not make the attempt.

embers, that was lovely... :mushy


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

> I went out to dinner a few weeks ago, and a guy pulled a chair out for me to sit in. Me, being the socially competent inspiration that I am, actually walked through the gap he made between the chair and the table, pulled out the chair next to it for myself, and sat down.


:lol thats a cute story


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## GraceLikeRain (Nov 9, 2003)

LostInReverie said:


> embers said:
> 
> 
> > If you're concentrating on the act itself, well yeh, of course its gonna be awkward because I don't think any of us are too silly to think we can't pull out chairs and open doors for ourselves.
> ...


 :agree


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## mserychic (Oct 2, 2004)

embers said:


> Thank you LostinReverie
> 
> And mserychic and everyone else who seems to be concentrating on the 'pulling out the chair' scenario, its not just pull out chair, she plops down, weird, awkward, robot robot, get it over with type deal...here's another perspective!
> 
> ...


To quote my friend I showed this too.. heterosexual courtship is funny :lol Whatever floats yr boat I guess.. just seems completely ridiculous to me :stu


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

embers said:


> Thank you LostinReverie
> 
> And mserychic and everyone else who seems to be concentrating on the 'pulling out the chair' scenario, its not just pull out chair, she plops down, weird, awkward, robot robot, get it over with type deal...here's another perspective!
> 
> ...


This post sounds nostalgic to me. It seems like you like the activity because you've become familiar with it or have come to think highly of it through societal socialization. But aren't there other ways of establishing some sort of familiarity or energy or whatever?

Because as it stands, Individually the actions may seem nice and sincere from both genders, but on a collective level, this social norm is a symptom of institutionalized female helplessness and dependence that came about in the good ole days. If you wish to carry out this collectively demeaning, vestigial custom, by all means do so. And I suppose I'll do it for a girl if that is what she wishes. It doesn't matter much because it is superficial, but I hope if superficiality is what she wants -- at least, in the remote sense -- then I'd like her to reciprocate these superficial gestures. I'd prefer the reciprocation of superficial gestures to not be her chairing me or opening the door for me, though -- I'm thinking I'd like....oh, I don't know...SEX! I'm sure that would help establish energy. But I suppose that's the point -- corrode the walls down around the female, so that she can be bedded. And why not try to get to that step with less energy and thoughtfulness by way of bland, stale, vestigial traditions that I've rarely done, but have already become tired of? Ladies? You like? Any takers? I'm sure I'll be thought of as being much the charmer after posting this feminist spiel.

Why not try something new? Or maybe we could try something a bit older? I don't know about anyone else, but the stereotype of a cave man hitting a woman over the head so he can drag her into his cave sounds appealing to me. :b


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## mserychic (Oct 2, 2004)

Cerberus said:


> Why not try something new? Or maybe we could try something a bit older? I don't know about anyone else, but the stereotype of a cave man hitting a woman over the head so he can drag her into his cave sounds appealing to me. :b


Will bring a whole new meaning to the phrase "going clubbing" :lol


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

Lost In Reverie Wrote:


> I am in full agreement with embers. Women want romance much more than just sex and if you expect to get what you want without giving what she wants then you're on your own. It's give and take.


That is so true. I will NEVER understand men who complain about helping their wives, gfs around the house. This is like investment in sex. A chore done cheerfully here, a flower or note of love there, a cuddle without expecting more..........THAT'S HOW YOU GET MORE SEX!

People in general think the "old ways" are outated and dead, but they had an unspoken meaning. And they are still enforce today. Women hold ALL the power, but they give it away sooooo easily to chumps. Chivalry/politeness etc is a way of women (and men) being able to judge, imperfectly yes, the character and temperament of the opposite sex........and deciding if they want pair up or not. Then there all these people, you see them at bars.......I call them the F*cking class, cuz they have no appreciation for anyone. They just get laid on a regular basis, but it's empty.


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## Broshious (Dec 23, 2006)

FairleighCalm said:


> Lost In Reverie Wrote:
> 
> 
> > I am in full agreement with embers. Women want romance much more than just sex and if you expect to get what you want without giving what she wants then you're on your own. It's give and take.
> ...


I would say that women don't hold all the power. They only do in your mind. A famous actor has women proving themselves to him, and he is able to pick and choose who he wants because they think he is so much above them. The same thing happens with regard to men and physically attractive women.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

Embers is correct in many things that she says. Listen to the girl!

Again, I've seen this in a number of threads here. Many of us are looking at the examples and specifics involved way too much. If you are still hung on the 'pulling out a chair for a lady is cheesy' mindset, then you haven't gotten the point.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

Broshious said:


> I would say that women don't hold all the power. They only do in your mind. A famous actor has women proving themselves to him, and he is able to pick and choose who he wants because they think he is so much above them. The same thing happens with regard to men and physically attractive women.


Tell me, how many guys out there have enough confidence to know they can pick and choose any woman they want? Not many. Often times today we look at the girl as being that one catch. No, we guys need to share the mindset that WE are the catch. Most girls grew up knowing many social trends and rules. They played 'house' while we blew up G.I. Joes in the backyard.

Of COURSE many women are going to be attracted to the guy who has high social value and has tremendous confidence in himself. Because there are very few of those guys around these days, unfortunately.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

A lot of things people do for love/sex/whatever look silly when actually examined. Open doors or don't, but stop thinking about it regardless. 

I open doors and run back out in the rain when she forgets to remind me to turn the car's lights off. At this late late point in life it just seems natural.

Having said that, if I was in my 20s (if I were? in my 20s) I'd be a bit confused and pissed off about how this stuff is supposed to work, especially since men are always consistent regarding what they appreciate from a woman


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## Spangles Muldoon (Jan 5, 2005)

Before I proceed, I should emphasize that any conclusions you make about my personal attitudes, based on this post, may be wrong. However, I'd like to point out that some of the arguments made by previous posters to this thread have been made before in a different historical context. For example, with edits made by me in order to shift the context, I offer the following quote:



> I have heard troubling rumbles of ill-conceived discontent echoing in the dark corners of our great land. Such traitorous dissent threatens the integrity of the social fabric that has enabled us to create a wondrous civilization from what was once a savage wilderness. It falls to those of us who guide the glorious destiny of this great nation to address such scurrilous and dangerous falsehoods. It is my duty -- no, my privilege -- to speak out and crush those who would bring ruin and damnation upon us all....
> 
> Our foul opponents offer the fanciful notion that [women] are sovereign individuals like us, fully capable of directing their own lives. Nothing could be further from the truth. A moment's solemn reflection makes clear that our [women] lack the inherent ability to understand their situation in all its complexity. If faced with the myriad of difficult choices and decisions confronting my fellow [men], a [woman] would tremble in fear and self-doubt. [Women] possess neither the mental acuity nor the moral cohesiveness required for sifting through the vast maze of existence. They tell us that they are much more comfortable deferring to our greater knowledge and wisdom. Indeed, I have personally heard [women] declare that they want us to make the tough decisions for them. They seek solace in their daily chores and simple responsibilities, leaving to their betters the task of navigating paths fraught with peril and loss. [Lest the social fabric should crumble, they would even have us open car doors for them.]


The original article was entitled "In Defense of Slavery." My edits are in square brackets.

For the record, I have opened car doors for others, both men and women, many a time, without regard to the social fabric. I feel comfortable in having done so because I have not discriminated between men and women in this behavior.


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

I always thought that if the "energy" was there then these procedures wouldn't really mean much. I don't know any girls, and my best friends are girls, that really care about these things. I didn't even think it was something anyone debated, but I guess some women do care. I guess I would pull a girls chair out for her... but then I don't really have enough money to dress up and go to a restaurant to begin with. I would probably just end up on a couch hanging out with some girl smoking pot. Does lighting the pipe for her count?


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## sprinter (Nov 22, 2003)

BeNice said:


> I I would probably just end up on a couch hanging out with some girl smoking pot. Does lighting the pipe for her count?


Absolutely, if you ever watch old movies the guys are always lighting the cigarette, pipe or cigar for the ladies.


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## Johnny_Genome (Nov 11, 2003)

I honestly must say, I think most girls I know would find the whole opening the car door thing pretty strange if not funny. 

'Hold on, don't get out yet.' ( I then run around the front of the car quickly to let her out)


I really think that is just a left over from the days of horse and buggy.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

I pulled the chair out from my ex as she attempted to sit down once, :lol she fell right on her ***! 

Clumsy girl. :banana

I paid for that one later on, but the memory lives on.  

I used to do that to my buddies as well and them to me. We found it funny but it didn't go over so well with her.


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## scairy (Sep 18, 2005)

NightinGale said:


> Holding open doors and pulling out chairs is so sweet, and makes a great first impression. Shows a lot of class. Thumbs up to chivalry all the way. If a woman doesn't like it it's because A.) she's not used to being treated that way and doesn't know how to simply say "thank you" to kind gestures, or B.) she's a bit of a feminist who doesn't like old-fashioned things that some may deem as "sexist".
> 
> Hey, I'm guilty of it, too. I can't carry ANYTHING into the warehouse at my job without someone offering to help me and that normally pisses me off (because I think they're doing it b/c I'm a woman). But, hey, if he's cute, then I'll let him help and think he's dashing for doing so.


or option C. she is stuck up and this gesture merely reinforces her thought that this guy is inferior and desperate.

Now if I could only figure out what kind of girl taking on this approach would render me. What if it renders a bossy girl? What if it renders a sweet hearted girl. Hmm we need someone to do a study on this, lol.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

Johnny_Genome said:


> I honestly must say, I think most girls I know would find the whole opening the car door thing pretty strange if not funny.
> 
> 'Hold on, don't get out yet.' ( I then run around the front of the car quickly to let her out)
> 
> I really think that is just a left over from the days of horse and buggy.


That would be unnecessary for me, but nice. I've had guys open the door for me when I'm about to get IN the car which is fine. If I felt like I had to sit and wait for him to come around and let me out, that would just make me feel anxious.

Even the pulling the chair out at dinner thing isn't necessary, but nice.
Holding the door open is necessary and I always say "Thankyou."
Actually coming up to the door at my house and ringing the doorbell like a gentlemen is necessary and it should be an obvious thing to do.
There have been some losers who had the nerve to just sit in their car. :roll 
I don't have ridiculous expectations, but I've been through enough jerkoffs to know how I should be treated and I'm not settling for less anymore.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

Seriously, I hold the door open for even guys if they are behind me when opening a door. Just general courtesy. I see women doing the same for other women and even me. I don't think it is a huge deal.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

Johnny1234 said:


> Lisa1975 said:
> 
> 
> > vicente said:
> ...


It shows his true character and that he's not a gentleman. I don't blame her for not calling him after that.

There are certain things guys should do. The right guy wouldn't mind doing it at all and he wouldn't even think twice about it, it would just come naturally to him. You either got it or you don't. For you guys who aren't into chivalry, good luck...or maybe you'll find some dumb girl who'll just accept being treated any kind of way.


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## njodis (Nov 8, 2006)

Prodigal Son said:


> Seriously, I hold the door open for even guys if they are behind me when opening a door. Just general courtesy. I see women doing the same for other women and even me. I don't think it is a huge deal.


I do the same.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

Prodigal Son said:


> Seriously, I hold the door open for even guys if they are behind me when opening a door. Just general courtesy. I see women doing the same for other women and even me. I don't think it is a huge deal.


Same here, I hold the door open for anyone without even thinking about it. That's just the kind of person I am.

However, when I'm on a date, it's polite when the guy holds the door open for me and it shows he has manners.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

As long as I don't have to call you princess I don't care, though I think it is a bit much for a deal breaker. It just shows you're thinking of them when you hold the door though, sometimes my mind wonders (ADD or something) and I totally forget to hold the door.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

Yeah, but when she said the guy held the door open and went in first. Well that's just rude. Like I said, either ya' got it or ya' don't.
For those who don't know any better (or don't care), they can do me a huge favour and leave me alone.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

Bah, holding the door open is a learned behavior though. So is the idea of chivalry, it isn't something you're born with. Too many rules for me, I wanna improvise. 

If the door is slammed back in her face though, not good.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Strange Religion said:


> Johnny1234 said:
> 
> 
> > Lisa1975 said:
> ...


I get immediately turned off and lose all attraction toward a woman if I find out she's the type who appreciates all the rights that feminists fought for yet refuses to accept the responsabilities of being equal to men. I mean, if a woman expects guys to "act like a gentleman" and treat them "like a lady", then after marriage, they should shut the **** up and do what he says and "put out" or prepare to get slapped. Get barefoot and start cooking dinner and making babies. Also, please don't vote unless you vote with your husband since he's the head of the household. How do you like tradition then, huh?

I am sick of people who show utter contempt for all that feminists have fought for. Chivalry is all about the traditional power dynamic of the man protecting and providing for the woman while the woman in return agrees to be submissive and sexually pleases the man.

I think that the women who reject chivalry are often ones who don't make a big deal out of gender roles and realize that people have some freedom to act outside labels based on biology and therefore they are the opposite of dumb.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

Okee...
Anyway, when I said "dumb" I meant the type of girl who will just go for anything and be treated like ****. Maybe that's also someone with low self-esteem. I don't have the highest self-esteem, but excuse me for feeling like certain things should be done for me. Btw if anyone is "turned off" by what I said, fine. I couldn't care less.

I don't expect much, just lil' simple things that should be common courtesy.

A question for the guys: I remember some old movie "Bronx" is in the title, but a man said "You'll know she's the one if she leans over and opens the car door for you."
What do you think about that? Do you think it would be nice if a girl is sitting in the car and she leans over and opens the door for you? Or would that be weird? I don't know, just wondering...


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

Strange Religion said:


> There are certain things guys should do. The right guy wouldn't mind doing it at all and he wouldn't even think twice about it, it would just come naturally to him. You either got it or you don't. For you guys who aren't into chivalry, good luck...or maybe you'll find some dumb girl who'll just accept being treated any kind of way.


This pretty much sums it up. Girls are not going to feel comfortable with a guy who doesn't make them feel comfortable. Think of it this way - for most people if you are approached by a happy, outgoing person with a big smile asking you something or whatever, you're reaction is to mirror that and end up being happier.

Believing in yourself and having confidence spreads to others around you. If you aren't comfortable what you are doing, you won't give that other person any comfort at all. Chivalry is not cheesy, however there are times when a guy can do way too much of it. Old fashioned dating and old fashioned roles are there for a reason. In most cases, guys want girls to be girls and girls want guys to be guys. As stated, either you got it or you don't.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

Vicente, I think you're going a bit extreme on this here. No one said everything in tradition is correct. What I'm saying is that there are some gender roles that ARE appropriate, even in this day in age. There is nothing wrong about holding the door open. That's part of being a guy.



Strange Religion said:


> A question for the guys: I remember some old movie "Bronx" is in the title, but a man said "You'll know she's the one if she leans over and opens the car door for you."
> What do you think about that? Do you think it would be nice if a girl is sitting in the car and she leans over and opens the door for you? Or would that be weird? I don't know, just wondering...


Ha Ha! I wouldn't know how to react. I'd think that'd be a little strange to be honest. I'd accept it, but it would feel weird.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Strange Religion said:


> Okee...
> Anyway, when I said "dumb" I meant the type of girl who will just go for anything and be treated like ****.


Are you equating being treated like any other person without paying attention to labels such as gender, to being treated like ****? And that if a woman is dating a man who isn't opening the car door (excuse me, "his" car door, since I guess he should also be driving her anyway), she could "do better"?



> I don't expect much, just lil' simple things that should be common courtesy.


I didn't know that common courtesy was supposed to be sexist.


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## Pharao (Jun 10, 2004)

Whoever said anything about equality? You're supposed to try and do everything in the world for the girl you care about..Hell of a lot more than just opening doors..If you have to argue about opening a door then you probably don't treat people very well in general. No one said that the girl doesn't have to do anything for the guy...Just the things she does aren't going to be opening doors..etc. Those are guy things to do for a woman..You'd probably try and argue that women and men should wear the same clothes. Just because a guy is gonna be polite and treat his gf with respect doesn't mean she has to do the exact same things in return so that the guy knows she cares about him.


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## PlayerOffGames (Mar 19, 2007)

Strange Religion said:


> Lisa1975 said:
> 
> 
> > A few months ago I was getting to know some guy. When he finally asked me to go for a coffee together he opened a door but then walked through it first! LOL, it totally put me off. I never called him after that.
> ...


 :con :wtf ...some girls have stated that it makes them feel awkward...maybe he went through the door first cuz he didnt want her to feel uncomfortable...doesnt that show he's considerate?...who knows :stu


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

Him going through the door first doesn't show any consideration.
I find it silly if a girl thinks it's awkward or uncomfortable for a guy to open the door for her. People these days...


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

vicente said:


> Strange Religion said:
> 
> 
> > Okee...
> ...


HAHAHAHA *sigh* All I know is how _I_ like to be treated. 
It's not just about opening the car door, these lil' things add up and they show what type of guy you are. Yeah, if a guy isn't treating her right, she can do better if she has enough sense to know she deserves better. There are types out there who don't care how they're treated, go find one of those to disrespect.

No one said anything about common courtesy being sexist. Blah blah, there are certain things I would do for a guy too. It's just the point of him putting forth the effort.


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

Strange Religion, I'd open a door for you. Beware though! I'm a back door man.

_Wha, yeah!, cmon, yeah, yeah, cmon, yeah
Yeah, cmon, oh, yeah, ma
Yeah, Im a back door man, Im a back door man
The men dont know, but the little girl understand
Hey, all you people that tryin to sleep
Im out to make it with my midnight dream, yeah
cause Im a back door man, the men dont know
But the little girls understand, all right, yeah
You men eat your dinner, eat your pork and beans
I eat more chicken, than any man ever seen, yeah, yeah
Im a back door man, wha, the men dont know
But the little girl understand
Well, Im a back door man
Im a back door man
Whoa, baby, Im a back door man
The men dont know
But the little girls understand_

The Doors


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

OMG! I just creamed my jeans.


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

Strange Religion said:


> OMG! I just creamed my jeans.


Thought you would.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

ops


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## justlistening (Dec 4, 2006)

I pulled out chairs multiple times for women and they appreciate that a lot, but that was when I worked in a restaurant. I would never do that for the girl I'm dating cause that's just ridiculous. Seriously, where do you people get that from, I've never seen someone doing that irl. Yeah, on that MTV show where players instruct nerds during a date ... and if I had to call anyone dumb, then it would be a girl who falls for smooth guys like that.

I can only see myself pulling out the chair in a situation like Drella described, or when I have to walk by her seat in order to get to mine. Then I would probably also make that gesture, but I would definitely not hold her chair till she sits down! 
The only courtesy thing I would follow in a situation like that, is making sure I don't sit down before her.


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## justlistening (Dec 4, 2006)

and about the doors ...
On a first date I might open the car door (with a wink) to let her in, but definitely not to let her out. 
I don't remember which movie that was, but it was about whether or not the girl would unlock his door from the inside while the guy is walking around the car after he opened the passenger's door for her. And yeah, small things like that would make a big impression on me, it shows what kind of girl she is. Just like opening and holding doors for other people.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

All over these forums you guys drool over the notion of an attractive girl, but you won't pull out a chair for her? 

Jeez.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

LostInReverie said:


> All over these forums you guys drool over the notion of an attractive girl, but you won't pull out a chair for her?
> 
> Jeez.


 :lol


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## justlistening (Dec 4, 2006)

LostInReverie said:


> All over these forums you guys drool over the notion of an attractive girl, but you won't pull out a chair for her?
> 
> Jeez.


You girls should be glad that most guys just refuse to put up an act like that during the first couple of critical dates, eventhough we know we can't really go wrong with cheesy things like that. 
Someone even described it as a step closer to get laid! Well, that (attitude) gives me another reason for not doing it. No matter who that girl is, she will be just as lucky to have sex with me as I'll be to have sex with her.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Except most women don't see sex like that. Arousal comes from romantic feelings, so if all she acheives is "getting laid", then no, she is not just as "lucky" because her own desires have not been fulfilled.


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## sctork (Oct 23, 2006)

LostInReverie said:


> All over these forums you guys drool over the notion of an attractive girl, but you won't pull out a chair for her?
> 
> Jeez.


exactly. Whats the big damn deal? Its not like we're asking you to go the ends of the earth for us or anything. The things mentioned on here are very small gestures.

I mean, if you were really truely smitten with someone, you will want to do nice things for them. Not because its tradition, but because you want to.

I guess I've just been spoiled by the guys i've dated. I do expect a certain amount of chivalry from the men I date. Since there are men out there that think its the right thing to do, I would rather have one of them tyvm. I *can do *plenty of **** for myself.....Does that mean I don't appreciate it when a man helps me out? HELL NO.


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## justlistening (Dec 4, 2006)

LostInReverie said:


> Except most women don't see sex like that. Arousal comes from romantic feelings, so if all she acheives is "getting laid", then no, she is not just as "lucky" because her own desires have not been fulfilled.


Haha, I didn't respond in another topic about the thing that all guys are willing to have sex with their female friends ... But, you girls really think that is all we want, huh? Well, I never asked a strange girl to have sex with me, while I had 4 girls asking that. So tell me again, which gender needs romantic feelings in order to have sex?


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

justlistening said:


> LostInReverie said:
> 
> 
> > Except most women don't see sex like that. Arousal comes from romantic feelings, so if all she acheives is "getting laid", then no, she is not just as "lucky" because her own desires have not been fulfilled.
> ...


Darling, prostitutes don't count. You have to give them _money_


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

There's really no way to get around opening doors for women since opening doors for others is already a common courtesy. Who really enjoys a door in the face? 

Plus, if its an attractive girl a guy is holding the door open for, then he could check the girl out on the way past. :yes The guy might even attract more attention if he smells really nice.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

My absolute favorite is when an elderly man holds open the door and insists I go first.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

Her post was not to be taken literally. Will opening a door get you in bed with her? Not at all, but it is the first step in getting her comfortable with you and allowing her to open herself up and feel relaxed.



justlistening said:


> Haha, I didn't respond in another topic about the thing that all guys are willing to have sex with their female friends ... But, you girls really think that is all we want, huh? Well, I never asked a strange girl to have sex with me, while I had 4 girls asking that. So tell me again, which gender needs romantic feelings in order to have sex?


Are you serious?? Are you trying to argue that guys need romantic feelings to have sex? Sure, there is that factor, but not NEARLY as much as women needing that connection. For women, sex is a mental trip... not nearly as physical (girls, you can correct me on that obviously haha). This is not about doing what it takes to get her into bed. It's about establishing a connection, a friendship, a relationship. She won't sleep with you unless she is comfortable with you.

Question - What IS chivalry? I bet you'll get different definitions.


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## justlistening (Dec 4, 2006)

Airick10 said:


> Her post was not to be taken literally. Will opening a door get you in bed with her? Not at all, but it is the first step in getting her comfortable with you and allowing her to open herself up and feel relaxed.


The way she said it sounded like she thinks she's in a position that she can reward me with sex and that I'm the only one who should deserve it ... I just reacted to that kind of attitude that some women have.



> Are you serious?? Are you trying to argue that guys need romantic feelings to have sex? Sure, there is that factor, but not NEARLY as much as women needing that connection. For women, sex is a mental trip... not nearly as physical (girls, you can correct me on that obviously haha). This is not about doing what it takes to get her into bed. It's about establishing a connection, a friendship, a relationship. She won't sleep with you unless she is comfortable with you.


Sure, women need more mental connection to have good sex. And I didn't say I _needed _romantic feelings to have sex, I just don't have sex with anyone I can get. And I was only making a point that a lot of women are also looking for instant sex without romantic feelings.


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

justlistening said:


> And I didn't say I _needed _romantic feelings to have sex, I just don't have sex with anyone I can get. And I was only making a point that a lot of women are also looking for instant sex without romantic feelings.


That is fair to say and I can understand that. I will agree that in today's age, women are more sexual then they have been in years past. But I certainly wouldn't agree to generalize women that most want instant sex with no romantic feelings.


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

I'm not trying to get in good with the women of SAS...CALENDAR IDEA!...but I'm a guy who needs talking, joking, light touching/teasing and fun before I feel like having sex. I've "had sex" before and it wasn't much fun. I dig on the emotions, the better the emotional boost the better the physical boost...is it getting warm in here or is that just me?


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## Broshious (Dec 23, 2006)

I'm sorry, but this thing with chivalry just seems like a bad idea to me. Have any of you women ever seen a "slick" guy? He'll have no problem doing all the little things you love so that he can sleep with you. Then you'll never hear from him again. So did all those things you say that means he cares actually mean a damn thing? No, of course not.


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## justlistening (Dec 4, 2006)

Airick10 said:


> justlistening said:
> 
> 
> > And I didn't say I _needed _romantic feelings to have sex, I just don't have sex with anyone I can get. And I was only making a point that a lot of women are also looking for instant sex without romantic feelings.
> ...


Of course not, but it's just that LostInReverie her post kinda pissed me off. If someone needs emotional connection to have sex then it's certainly me, problem is that my SA prevents me from being able to get into a relationship ...

And my apologies to *embers *if she felt personally attacked by my posts.


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

To lighten the mood... the next time a man pulls out a chair for a woman here, the woman should strike a pose, hands on hip, then irish step dance around the chair and the chivalrous one, then come round full circle and kick him in the balls .....or shin....or pass gas as she sits down. We will know for sure then if chivalry is dead.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

FairleighCalm said:


> I'm not trying to get in good with the women of SAS...CALENDAR IDEA!...but I'm a guy who needs talking, joking, light touching/teasing and fun before I feel like having sex. I've "had sex" before and it wasn't much fun. I dig on the emotions, the better the emotional boost the better the physical boost...is it getting warm in here or is that just me?


That's really nice. Now come here. haha

I would also like to have a strong emotional connection with a guy. I'm not out to just get laid, not anymore anyway. I did have my moments in the past...but after all is said and done, it's meaningless.


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

Man, this thread is boring. Can someone just make another thread linking to the pick-up artist guys again?


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## Airick10 (May 10, 2007)

Strange Religion said:


> I'm not out to just get laid, not anymore anyway.


What happened?? Where is the old you? Now we have to play the game to get anywhere? Damn!


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## Johnny1234 (Nov 16, 2006)

Nothing wrong with one night stands. Although I never had one, I am very interested in doing them in the future. There are people you meet who want a relationship, and there are people who just want sex. Both are perfectly fine.


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## Razorblade Kiss (Oct 29, 2006)

Johnny1234 said:


> Nothing wrong with one night stands. Although I never had one, I am very interested in doing them in the future. There are people you meet who want a relationship, and there are people who just want sex. Both are perfectly fine.


I couldn't agree more. Through experience I've learned one night stands/flings are not for me, but there are people who are into that which is fine with me.


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

justlistening said:


> Airick10 said:
> 
> 
> > justlistening said:
> ...


Why is it okay to attack LostInReverie but not embers?


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## scairy (Sep 18, 2005)

Strange Religion said:


> Johnny1234 said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="Lisa1975
> ...


Over generalization. Sometime I'll walk through the door first and then hold it (just in general terms when there is a girl I'm walking with). Sometimes it's a push door rather than pull.


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

Strange Religion Wrote:


> That's really nice. Now come here. haha
> 
> I would also like to have a strong emotional connection with a guy. I'm not out to just get laid, not anymore anyway. I did have my moments in the past...but after all is said and done, it's meaningless.


  Hey Baby.

Yeah it is meaningless, or becomes meaningless. The happiest I've ever been is the morning after and you realize you can have fun with this PERSON, you don't dread the day ahead with them. And you can possibly build something with them......and if you treat them right you can have MORE SEX! It's like you have this intimacy, a box that only you and she has the key to open.


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

LostInReverie said:


> All over these forums you guys drool over the notion of an attractive girl, but you won't pull out a chair for her?
> 
> Jeez.


Not only will I pull out a chair for her, I'll bend her over it!


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