# Dopamine levels and L-Tyrosine



## Rymdis (Mar 14, 2010)

Hi there!

Apparently L-Tyrosine should increase DA levels and also NE levels in the brain. Does anybody know anything about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosine

http://www.beatcfsandfms.org/html/NaStrategy.html

This would be an easy way to test my DA levels if this is true.

from one of many articles:
"High dopamine levels have been observed in patients with poor gastrointestinal function, autism, mood swings, aggression, psychosis, anxiety, hyperactivity, and children with attention disorders. "

maybe too much of the good isnt that *good* 

/R


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm not sure about the last two, people with hyperactive or inattentive attention disorders usually have low levels of dopamine as far as I'm aware, which is why stimulant medication is given to patients with ADHD and ADD-I.


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## Rymdis (Mar 14, 2010)

jim_morrison said:


> I'm not sure about the last two, people with hyperactive or inattentive attention disorders usually have low levels of dopamine as far as I'm aware, which is why stimulant medication is given to patients with ADHD and ADD-I.


because i asked is that i now take Memantine. I suffer from Touretts which include ADHD, Tics, SA and OCD. I also suffer from a stutter.

And according to many articles there are strong evidence that stutters have too high DA levels. This is of course a dilemma for me. I couldnt take Prami as this made my stutter go through the roof along with increased axiety. I sense that this going the same way. Im on day 4 at 5mg Memantine and things are aweful. The only meds that took away the knot in my stomach along with most of my stutter was Cymbalta and Effexor and i guess this was bacause this made my serotine and NE levels "closer" to my DA levels. Its just a theory though. I could never take any DA antagonists as this made me feel very bad. So my brain is a mystery 
Effexor also did remove most of my OCD problems. Cymbalta did remove some but not as much but was ont he other hand better at SA.

And now theres "evidence" that SA is casued by *too low* DA 

I guess all things have to be in level.

/R


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Rymdis said:


> because i asked is that i now take Memantine. I suffer from Touretts which include ADHD, Tics, SA and OCD. I also suffer from a stutter.
> 
> And according to many articles there are strong evidence that stutters have too high DA levels. This is of course a dilemma for me. I couldnt take Prami as this made my stutter go through the roof along with increased axiety. I sense that this going the same way. Im on day 4 at 5mg Memantine and things are aweful. The only meds that took away the knot in my stomach along with most of my stutter was Cymbalta and Effexor and i guess this was bacause this made my serotine and NE levels "closer" to my DA levels. Its just a theory though. I could never take any DA antagonists as this made me feel very bad. So my brain is a mystery
> Effexor also did remove most of my OCD problems. Cymbalta did remove some but not as much but was ont he other hand better at SA.
> ...


So you mean you want to increase NE and serotonin but not DA?
from what I ve seen, if you increase NE you will increase DA as well.
Your best option would be something like wellbutrin that would increase NA a lot more than DA. Then you culd add another drug to increase serotonin.
Hows memantine working with your stuttering? I have a friend who stutters. Maybe he would be interested in it.
But Jim Morrison is right. If what they say about high dopamine levels being associated with high dopamine is true, then it would be impossible for someone to have ADHD and stuttering at the same time. Cause ADHD is caused from low dopamine. maybe there are different receptors involved with ADHD and different with stuttering.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Rymdis: Since it seems as if whatever is going on with your dopaminergic system is complex to say the least, I'm curious have you ever tried Aripiprazole?
Aripiprazole is a novel atypical antipsychotic with partial agonist activity at the D2 receptor, what's interesting is that it basically acts as an antagonist at D2 receptors under hyperdopaminergic conditions, but displays agonist properties for the D2 receptors under hypodopaminergic conditions. So this unique mechanism of action may be a novel approach, as it could "fine tune" your dopaminergic system back to a normal balance, whatever the problem may be. Just a thought.


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## Rymdis (Mar 14, 2010)

karoloydi said:


> So you mean you want to increase NE and serotonin but not DA?
> from what I ve seen, if you increase NE you will increase DA as well.
> Your best option would be something like wellbutrin that would increase NA a lot more than DA. Then you culd add another drug to increase serotonin.
> Hows memantine working with your stuttering? I have a friend who stutters. Maybe he would be interested in it.
> But Jim Morrison is right. If what they say about high dopamine levels being associated with high dopamine is true, then it would be impossible for someone to have ADHD and stuttering at the same time. Cause ADHD is caused from low dopamine. maybe there are different receptors involved with ADHD and different with stuttering.


Well, i have partial ADHD and stutter so... made several tests some years ago and they found that i have Tourette with partial ADHD. And SA along with OCD and tics. And a stutter to top it off.

So if i increase NE then DA will automatically be raised? That was news to me!

Ive tried wellbutin with no success. 300mg made me more anxious. Dont know yet about memantine. Its only been 4 days but im actually scared of this drug. Prami was pure hell for me.

Ive tried reboxetine which also made me more anxious... But both wellbutrin and reboxetine was in combination with Effexor and Iktorivil.

/R


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## Rymdis (Mar 14, 2010)

jim_morrison said:


> Rymdis: Since it seems as if whatever is going on with your dopaminergic system is complex to say the least, I'm curious have you ever tried Aripiprazole?
> Aripiprazole is a novel atypical antipsychotic with partial agonist activity at the D2 receptor, what's interesting is that it basically acts as an antagonist at D2 receptors under hyperdopaminergic conditions, but displays agonist properties for the D2 receptors under hypodopaminergic conditions. So this unique mechanism of action may be a novel approach, as it could "fine tune" your dopaminergic system back to a normal balance, whatever the problem may be. Just a thought.


I have not tried that one actually. ive passed that one after failing 5 or 6 others in that family. But after what happened with prami im actually afraid of DA agonists now  But maybe this is worth a shot?

/R


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Rymdis said:


> Well, i have partial ADHD and stutter so... made several tests some years ago and they found that i have Tourette with partial ADHD. And SA along with OCD and tics. And a stutter to top it off.
> 
> So if i increase NE then DA will automatically be raised? That was news to me!
> 
> ...


I remember when I tried sinemet its the first time I felt what its like to stutter in my life. So what you said about dopamine makes sence to me.
I bet pramilexole would make things worse. But I think for the first weeks until you adapt pramipexole should make your stuttering less. What was your experience with pramipexole?


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## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash


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## Rymdis (Mar 14, 2010)

karoloydi said:


> I remember when I tried sinemet its the first time I felt what its like to stutter in my life. So what you said about dopamine makes sence to me.
> I bet pramilexole would make things worse. But I think for the first weeks until you adapt pramipexole should make your stuttering less. What was your experience with pramipexole?


well, the day after ive sterted it my anxiety got worse. I started to stutter more to the point that people actually asked if something happened. The thing was that things got worse and worse after one week insted of the opposite which should have been the case as the regulation of DA would have been further adjusted. I guess that ive passed the point where it actually increased my DA. It made my anxious, jumpy and i couldnt sleep. Many times i tried to go to bed and try to sleep so the anxiety would go away but i couldnt fall asleep 

I tried to counteract this with Klonopin and Valium but it didnt helped that much. I had to take Remeron to be able to fall asleep at all.

Now im back with another DA agonist and i feel similar feelings. Not that strong as its not a strong DA agonist, but its there, i can feel it.

I now take Concerta 36mg but its hard to tell if this is even working when memantine is in my system?

But to sum it up: Prami did make my stutter a lot worse. And as stutters do have too much DA already i guess that was a bad move. I guess memantine is that too 

And i have been diagnosed with ADHD (partial) which should mean that my DA levels are low 

But whats even more strange is that Zyprexa and other DA antagonists never worked. Made me also more anxious. But they all also affect serotine so who knows?

So my brain is totally f**ked up!! I have no clue whats going on. Been through 6 pdocs and nobody knows.

/R


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## Rymdis (Mar 14, 2010)

meyaj said:


> :bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash


meaning?


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## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

Rymdis said:


> well, the day after ive sterted it my anxiety got worse. I started to stutter more to the point that people actually asked if something happened. The thing was that things got worse and worse after one week insted of the opposite which should have been the case as the regulation of DA would have been further adjusted. I guess that ive passed the point where it actually increased my DA. It made my anxious, jumpy and i couldnt sleep. Many times i tried to go to bed and try to sleep so the anxiety would go away but i couldnt fall asleep
> 
> I tried to counteract this with Klonopin and Valium but it didnt helped that much. I had to take Remeron to be able to fall asleep at all.
> 
> ...


Yeah, your case sounds strange. Maybe your ADHD actually hypoglycemia. Its easy to confuse the two. But thats just a guess. Would you say that theres an inverse relationship between your ADHD and your stuttering? Like when you are more focused you stutter more? But when its hard for you to concetrate your stuttering is gone?


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## Rymdis (Mar 14, 2010)

karoloydi said:


> Yeah, your case sounds strange. Maybe your ADHD actually hypoglycemia. Its easy to confuse the two. But thats just a guess. Would you say that theres an inverse relationship between your ADHD and your stuttering? Like when you are more focused you stutter more? But when its hard for you to concetrate your stuttering is gone?


well, it differs from day to day actually. In social situations i tend to stutter worse. I always try to stutter less but moslty its impossible. If i have my SA under control i stutter less coz i dont care what people might think. And even if i do stutter i dont have a prolem with it. My stutter is in releationship with my SA. Some stutters dont feel a knot in their stomach every time they stutter but i do.

well, i give memantine one or two days more....


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Rymdis said:


> So if i increase NE then DA will automatically be raised? That was news to me!


Not exactly, I think what he was referring too is that NE reuptake also leads to localized DA increase in the prefrontal cortex, which is simply because that area of the brain largely lacks DA transporters, so the NE reuptake pump does the recycling of DA specifically in that part of the brain. But as Rocknroll pointed out, increased/decreased DA in different regions of the brain has very different effects.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Rymdis said:


> I have not tried that one actually. ive passed that one after failing 5 or 6 others in that family. But after what happened with prami im actually afraid of DA agonists now  But maybe this is worth a shot?


By "that family" I assume you mean the atypical antipsychotics? although personally I think that Aripiprazole could almost be in a class of it's own.

Most atypical antipsychotics, can be subdivied into two subcategories by their chemical names which end in either "done" ie; risperidone or "pine" ie; quetiapine.
Most dones act a certain way (ie stronger DA2 blockade (though weaker than typical antipsychotics) and very strong 5HT2A blockade), and pines act another way (weaker DA2 and 5HT2A blockade, a relative lack of selectivity leading to many side effects such as antihistaminergic, anticholinergic, antiadrenergic, 5HT2C blockade etc.)

Aripiprazole is almost in a class of it's own because of it's DA2 partial agonism. It's possible that this unique mechanism could actually treat both positive and negative symptoms of schizophrenia, in contrast to most antipsychotics which predominantly treat only positive symptoms.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

rocknroll714 said:


> They call it and bifeprunox (another D2 partial agonist) third generation.
> 
> I doubt it would be effective for Rymdis, but I suppose it's worth a try.


Oh ok, I hadn't heard that term used, but third generation is probably a better explanatory term for it. I think this class seems promising for schizophrenics, especially as a maintenance therapy.

As for if it would work for Rymdis, I really don't know to be honest, his problem seems rather complex from his explanation. I agree that the OCD relief he experienced from SNRI's was most likely from the SRI part of it.
As for the contradictory disorders he seems to experience purportedly involving his dopaminergic system, I'm really not sure, it might even be worth having a PET or CT scan (not sure which is best) of the brain to find out exactly what's going on and in what region of the brain, as you said, it's possible that his dopamine activity is too high in one area, and too low in another.


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## Rymdis (Mar 14, 2010)

Finally! The police have arrived! 



> For starters, Rymdis, you need to listen to me when I talk to you okay? I've told you most of what I'm about to say numerous times before either on these forums or on MSN but it always seems to go in one ear and out the other. I don't know if it's the language barrier or if your ADHD is making you fail to pay attention or what but frankly it's annoying having to repeat myself over and over again, especially when you're the one asking me for advice. I don't have anything against you and I like you, trying novel things for your mental issues and such, but you gotta listen man!


Well rocknroll714, its not that i dont listen to what you have to say. For starters i havent felt this bad for years actually like i do now and have been the last weeks. I cant think straight, have problem remembering tings, well this was a problem before also as im on Klonopn, but its worse now. And my anxiety is through the roof. I sorry that you had to repeat yourself and this may actually come as a chock to you: This place isnt about discussing sports cars  Most of the people here have real issues and i think that patience is a crucial thing. Talking to you on the MSN is not that esay actually. Like you said, english is not my native language so i have trouble understanding everything. Especially all the medical terms. I try to understand but when you have to look up every second word its not that easy.
I hate to repeat myself also but sometimes that what it takes. This i wrote about DA is what* I* think. I never said that this is how it works. And i guess not everything can be trusted that you find on the net. I wrote my experiences and how i felt. Wrong? Apparently that was. You seem to know your Dopamine so i wont even go there. These was just my theories.



> The reason pramipexole made your stutter and anxiety worse is because it *decreased* dopamine, similarly to what dopamine antagonists do. This is because of dopamine autoreceptors. When activated they decrease dopamine release at first, but over time they desensitize and eventually you get increased dopamine instead.


Yep, thats what ive heard. You should gradually become better. In my case as i wrote, i gradually become worse. I was on this for about 4 weeks and things got so bad at the end i HAD to quit. Initially pramipexole wasnt that bad actually. But the longer i stayed on it the more anxiety i got along with increased stutter. Should have been the opposite, right?

Now im in the exact same situation with Memantine and last night i felt that i was nearly dying. It scared me. Today when i woke up i had extreme anxiety. Im all jumpy and cant think at all. And this is from taking only 5 mg which ive been doing for 5 days now. The first 2 days were petty ok but like with pramipexole, things aint going to well.



> SNRIs treated your anxiety and OCD because they act on serotonin, not because they affect norepinephrine. Norepinephrine actually tends to worsen anxiety and I can say fairly confidently it did not play any role in the SA or OCD relief you got from these drugs at all.


Like ive said in the past, ive tried i think 7 SSRI medications with no success at all. These two were the only ones that took the edge of the SA and my stutter much better. Im sure that the manufacures didnt put NE in there just for fun  Also did remove most of my OCD but that is likely like you said because of the serotine.

I personally think, and now its about what i think, that its about levels in the brain. If i have too much DA then maybe raising the other two make them more in line with eachother. And by raising just one real high you get out of order.

Good that you straightened this thread up rocknroll714, but i think it could have been done in a "nicer" way 

well, as i feel like sh*t i dont feel like writing more at the moment. Will see my pdoc today actually.

/Rymdis


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Rymdis said:


> Like ive said in the past, ive tried i think 7 SSRI medications with no success at all. These two were the only ones that took the edge of the SA and my stutter much better. Im sure that the manufacures didnt put NE in there just for fun  Also did remove most of my OCD but that is likely like you said because of the serotine.


No the manufacturers don't just put in NE for the sake of it lol, that property is there because it's good for depression. As for SNRI's working better, well even between every SSRI/SNRI there are individual binding preferences to certain serotonin (5HT) subtype receptors which is probly why some people respond better to certain ones than others, and effexor has been shown for example to show preference for 5HT1A and 5HT1B; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...inkpos=4&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed, and 5HT1A is thought to be the primary theraputic part of SRI's. Also who knows, perhaps the dopamine boost in the prefrontal cortex also helped.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

rocknroll714 said:


> Not quite... see here:
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:El3ctr0nika/affinities#.237
> ...


Doesn't that Ki value represent it's value as an antagonist though?


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Ah, it's just that I'm aware that >35,000 is about venlafaxines value as an antagonist at the α1-adrenergic, α2-adrenergic, H1, 5-HT2A, and mACh receptors, so it lined up a bit oddly at first glance. 
http://www.preskorn.com/columns/0007.html


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## Rymdis (Mar 14, 2010)

ok, so im back from the pdoc. He was not too happy when i told him that i added the Memantine with my Concerta treatment. So i have to quit mem just to be able to see how Concerta *really* is.

Yikes, i was really hoping that i could remember all the things he said about DA. He was taking about subsystems that were affected and receptors and this and that.

What i do remember is that he told me that saying that high DA levels equals wellbeing and so on was even remotly ignorant to state. There were so much more to it he said. He have been working as a pdoc for over 35 years and have studied the brain many many years so i guess he know what hes talking about.

Too bad i cant remember but ill meet him next week again and then i will take notes!!

Of course i told him about cocaine and amhethamine that causes a wellbeing effect. But then he laid out why that happens. Cant remember that either.

I guess that cocaine and amhethamine does it "too well". If raising the DA levels was the only thing then *why doesnt Ritalin work for everybody*? Its a rather strong DA agonist, or? I guess it "doesnt do it right" for everybody. And i think that no one can tell why. Or why not drink 100 cups of coffee a day? I guess that would increase your DA levels like never before 

So why *does* *not* Ritalin work on everybody? Why does one SSRI work on a person but not another SSRI? Interesting questions indeed i think.

Well, back on track.

I know that i question a lot of information i get. And this i know some people have a problem with. Its not that i want to start an argument. Thats just that science changes from day to day basis. Ive been on for example Lamictal and most of its mechanism are still unknown. I did search around while i took it and some documents started something like: "what we previously thoght about Lamictal proved to be wrong"  I even called the manufacture but they couldnt tell either.

So rocknroll714, i know that you know your stuff and are very smart and so on and on and on  But i think that i had trouble swollowing all the information that you gave because of what i just told. So this along with feeling bad and all the rest stuff ive got maybe didnt work that well i guess. 
Its science, not knowledge  Tomorrow something else is true!

I guess that you who are on Prami have pinpointed the exact mechanism of it so i would be glad the hear it actually. Same goes with Memantine. Then i can discuss this next week with my pdoc. As these are fairly new they came after he stopped his deep research on medication. So what do they affect, what other receptors are involved, subsystems etc etc....

I can feel that the axiety is much worse one hour after taking the Memantine. Its like i had 1000 cups of coffee 

Ive read the side-effects from Menantine and anxiety is one of them. Its a severe one that calls for immediate assistance. Not a common one though.

Last a bit about Cymbalta/Effexor. As i said these were the only ones that took way the knot that i had in my stomach. they made me more confident. I guess that NE in this case representate "fight" instead of flight. I know poor confidence is often associated with SA.

yeah, keep it real! And its not hard helping one thats easy to help  Dont expect an award for that! 

hope that this place is about helping eachother! Some may start an argument with you. Some may even question you. Some will even be mad at your advices. This is when the true heroes goes on!

I hope I havent offended anyone...

if so, im sorry

/Rymdis


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