# Bad Boys vs. Nice Guys



## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

I've always found it surprising how many girls like the "bad boys" while simultaneously complaining about getting treated poorly, abused, etc. It seems like the "bad boys" are more likely to be the guys who use, abuse, etc. To me, it seems rather obvious, but attraction is an odd beast I guess. 

I've made a fair share of friendships with females over the years for someone with SA, but I've been told before that I'm "too nice" to be attractive to that many girls in a more-than-friends sense. I never knew people could be "too nice," and years later, when I no longer face the romantic relationship desires, I still don't get it. Saying that someone is "too nice" seems like saying that you wouldn't want to be "too happy" with your life.

I've never had any sort of aversion to nice girls (in fact, the nicer the better), so what's the deal with nice guys being seen as unattractive by enough females that it warrants the usage of the labels "bad boy" and "nice guy" in the first place? After all, these labels are often referenced, so there must be something to this attraction toward guys who are more likely to use and abuse.


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## scairy (Sep 18, 2005)

Oh no, not this again, lol. I think there is a thinline between nice guy and desperate guy. Also I think the nice guy often blocks himself from success. He'll stop himself from going after particular women if it could destroy a friendship that exists. He stops himself if he finds the girl is currently seeing someone even if it has only been 1 month. He stops himself if he feels that the person he wants to approach doesn't want to be bothered or is busy or is in a hurry. If he attempts to approach and the woman seems to be defensive he'll back off. 

The bad boy on the other hand could care less. He'll take his shot in any given scenario regardless of what path of destruction he leaves behind. This in turn gives him more opportunities for success. It's a numbers game.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Yeah, I could see a strategic advantage to risk-taking vs. not risk-taking, but I'm questioning the issue from the other end... female's attraction, rather than the male strategy.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Rich guys also date good-looking younger golddiggers, and continue to date them even after they take a lot of their money and leave. Most people can't change what they're attracted to even if it burns them, like a fly attracted to a bright hot lightbulb. "Maybe this time it won't burn", they delude themselves into thinking. But it never fails to burn.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

The LFTs (little flying things, haha) that fly into lights at night do so due to their evolutionary history of using the moonlight as a navigation tool. 

I wonder what the evolutionary advantages might be for being attracted to what are commonly called "bad boys." Perhaps aggressive risk-takers were more likely to provide enough food and resources to ensure survival of offspring or something?

Today's modern world only requires money in order to provide such food/resources support. It's a lot easier to be a "provider" today, so being the bad boy isn't necessary. The rapid growth in societal wealth isn't reflected in the large mass of evolutionary history though I suppose, so the primitive urges of desiring aggressive risk-takers might prevail, even if being used/abused is an occasional side effect.


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## soma (Nov 10, 2003)

Bad boys are more exciting than nice guys? 
I still think there is plenty of hope for the "nice guy".


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Being around a psychotic serial killer would probably be more exciting than being around Mr. Rogers.  I guess maybe it depends on what sort of excitement someone wants, doesn't it? :lol


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## Qolselanu (Feb 15, 2006)

Girls do want nice guys. Girls don't want (percieved) doormats.

Anyway, on a deep instinctive level everyone , not just girls, tend to want to follow the alpha male. Blushing, changing your mind about something, or whatever tends to be percieved as weakness by the human brain. The brian tends to lower the estimation of people who show that weakness. Changing your mind about something could be a sign of intelligence (and maturity) to some people. But with others it would be percieved as weakness or unconfidence.


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## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

ardrum said:


> I've made a fair share of friendships with females over the years for someone with SA, but I've been told before that I'm "too nice" to be attractive to that many girls in a more-than-friends sense. I never knew people could be "too nice," and years later, when I no longer face the romantic relationship desires, I still don't get it. Saying that someone is "too nice" seems like saying that you wouldn't want to be "too happy" with your life.


This sounds a lot harsher than intended, but maybe people don't really think that you're "too nice." It might have just been a polite and gentle way to turn you down, or a soothing bit of comfort when you're distraught, the equivalent of reassuring somebody who's grandmother passed away that she's in a better place......


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## meesha327 (Mar 15, 2007)

Sigh.....Saying that all girls want bad boys is the same as saying all girls are gold diggers, all boys just want a pretty face, etc. Personally, I would rather have a nice guy than a bad boy and I'm not just saying that. Please don't get offended, but I'm going to post this link that has alot of explanation to the bad boy/nice guy debate and is intended for humors sake more than anything. These ladies have quite a unique perspective on the situation and I think you'll find it interesting. http://www.heartless-*****es.com/rants/ ... coin.shtml


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## meesha327 (Mar 15, 2007)

Ok I don't think this link is working because of the sensor but google heartless B!tches international and click on the nice guy section!


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Yes, I can understand why someone wouldn't want a doormat. Nice guys aren't equivalent to doormats though. They are people who are empathetic toward others and take others' interests into consideration before making decisions.

Well, this was many years ago. I haven't heard this in awhile, although I still, unapologetically, consider myself to be a nice person. The implication if the words are sincere though is that kindness has its limits and that unkindness is to be desired to some extent.

This befuddles me, but it wouldn't be the first time that humans confuse me.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

> Sigh.....Saying that all girls want bad boys is the same as saying all girls are gold diggers, all boys just want a pretty face, etc.


I would agree if anyone was making categorical statements such as the above. Nobody here has done this though so you're arguing against a statement that isn't even present here.



> All too often we hear self-professed "Nice Guys" complaining about why they can't get a date, and whining that women just want to date jerks, etc. etc. The truth of the matter is that there are genuinely caring, compassionate, decent, fun guys out there who have NO TROUBLE meeting people, getting dates, and having relationships.
> 
> Unfortunately, many of the guys who DO have trouble, insist on laying blame and asserting that women don't want them because they are too "Nice". These people who call themselves "Nice Guys" can't see that THEIR OWN behavior is the problem. Whether it is targetting women who are troubled to begin with, or acting in a manipulative, patronizing or obsequious fashion, these guys sabotage themselves and blame others for their misfortunes.
> 
> This section is devoted to the guys who suffer from that self-professed "Nice Guy" affliction. Here is the place to find out why YOUR behavior isn't as "Nice" as you think it is...


The articles are mildly amusing, but they often rely on the assumption that all "nice guys" seek romantic relationships. I, for one, do not. I would turn down the offer of a romantic relationship to ANY person, no matter how much I liked her. No articles remotely address this situation.

My statement about being called "too nice" came from direct experience from two female friends, years ago, and it wasn't after asking them or anyone else out. It was merely volunteered as advice on a topic I didn't ask them about in the first place.

In many cases, people treat my like a charity case as if I somehow need a relationship in order to be fulfilled. This, I realize, is a result of their ignorance, and I don't blame them or harbor ill feelings toward them for possessing such a commonly held belief. It is rather curious though that anyone would assume I'm interested in romantic relationships without first asking me.

Most of the articles of that site sadly go beyond the definition of being "nice" by adding all sorts of negative qualities. This goes beyond the definition of having empathy toward sentient beings.


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## meesha327 (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm sorry people treat you like a charity case! I think it is just a part of society that you must "have somebody" to be complete and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Continue to be the nice person that you are, we have too many jerks walking around this earth!


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Adam, maybe you are confusing "guys who are nice sometimes" and "Nice Guys". Guys who are nice sometimes can also be confident and manly and dominant and therefore have great success with women. I know of a few (they do exist! though they're somewhat hard to find).

But "Nice Guys" are guys who are defined by the fact that they are nice. We live on making other people happy, that is how we derive our satisfaction, that we make a difference in other people's lives, but don't think about ourselves. We can't get girlfriends because we don't think too highly and well of our own selves and aren't strong enough to take charge of other people.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Yeah, I don't think the dichotomy of "nice guys" or not "nice guys" is very complete either. There is complexity to each individual, so labeling in this way is ultimately an inaccurate practice in the first place. In addition, each person's usage of the phrase "nice guy" likely means something different.

I will quite possibly always have some confusion as to what makes some features attractive for some people and not for others.


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## Zen Mechanics (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> In many cases, people treat my like a charity case as if I somehow need a relationship in order to be fulfilled. This, I realize, is a result of their ignorance, and I don't blame them or harbor ill feelings toward them for possessing such a commonly held belief. It is rather curious though that anyone would assume I'm interested in romantic relationships without first asking me.


Why do you consider that curious? Considering prob like 99.99% of people are interested in being a romantic relationship, it's pretty easy to assume you'd be part of that percentage as opposed to the small minority who aren't.

As for the whole 'nice guys' argument, I agree with whoever said it's more about substituting the word 'nice' with 'doormat'. Girls do want someone who will be nice to them/do sweet things/etc etc, but they don't want someone overly desperate who falls over himself to do ANYTHING for her. There's a diff between just being nice in general and being pathetic.


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## Cerberus (Feb 13, 2005)

Could you define what you mean by "bad boy" or "nice guy." I don't think I'm either. I think I just have horrible interpersonal skills that I'm slowly working on improving. If anything I'm not nice enough. I tend to give off a "**** you" vibe.

I've actually been called an *******/jerk more than a nice guy throughout my life, but that's because I won't take people's **** and I'm highly paranoid.


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## SADFighter (May 4, 2007)

I'd like to throw something else into the mix, overintellectualizing as usual...

There's no such thing as "nice guys" vs "bad boys." "Nice guys," it seems to me, refers to people who interact with girls in a CONSISTANTLY agreeable, unchallenging and diminuative role where as "bad boys" refers to people who interact with girls in a wide variety of ways--sometimes agreeable, sometimes diagreeable...sometimes being that listening ear and sometimes just wanting to watch sports with the guys. In other words, imo, being living, complex human beings. 

What am I getting at? That while the "nice guys" vs "bad boys" paradigm might imply a fixed way of being, it isn't at all. Luckily. I've only been learning this through experience. Sufferers of shyness, low-self esteem and the all-encompassing SA THINK that they are bound to a life of being labeled a "nice guy" but are you really? Do you really ALWAYS want to have a conversation in which EVERYONE agrees with you or are you just afraid of their judgment? Do you really ALWAYS want to be the "safe" guy who a girl can talk to about all her problems or do you actually want to talk to her on an affectionate, romantic level? The "only" thing holding us back is the anxiety. 

That's the biggest problem us SA'ers, face, IMO. Us not being able to be fully, for lack of a better word, "human"--being ourselves, sharing ourselves, putting our needs first sometimes, expressing all aspects of our diverse and changing personalities and doing things that might possibly, just possibly not be taken perfectly. Not doing all these things makes someone a "nice guy." A pushover, basically, but it's more than that. I don't think it's necessary for any of us to ever be the center of a party, to talk all the time (or even a lot for that matter) but as for being ourselves and expressing that openly to others, that's what creates attraction.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Zen Mechanics said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> > In many cases, people treat my like a charity case as if I somehow need a relationship in order to be fulfilled. This, I realize, is a result of their ignorance, and I don't blame them or harbor ill feelings toward them for possessing such a commonly held belief. It is rather curious though that anyone would assume I'm interested in romantic relationships without first asking me.
> ...


I didn't say it is unreasonable, since it is clear that I am in a minority (although this group would be many, MANY magnitudes more than 0.01% of the population). I said I found it to be "curious," or interesting. I find it interesting from a philosophical standpoint of what some people believe is required by everyone to live the good life.



Zen Mechanics said:


> As for the whole 'nice guys' argument, I agree with whoever said it's more about substituting the word 'nice' with 'doormat'. Girls do want someone who will be nice to them/do sweet things/etc etc, but they don't want someone overly desperate who falls over himself to do ANYTHING for her. There's a diff between just being nice in general and being pathetic.


Hmm... so maybe the girls who volunteered to say I was too nice were actually saying I was a doormat. Who knows. I can't say it would make much sense though given that I wasn't bending over backwards for them in any way. Maybe that's why I found it to be so peculiar that they (separately) said this to me. I really should have probed what they really meant by this, since I'm doubting that they were being completely honest with the word "nice," but instead using it as a euphemism for something else.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Yeah, I think disagreement is incredibly interesting and I don't make friends as well with people that I always agree with. In fact, with my best friends, I'd say I disagree with them (vocalizing it) on a nearly daily basis (assuming I encounter them daily). Of course, since I'm rather used to this, I don't take disagreement personally as a sign that they hate me or anything. I don't make friends as well with people who take such disagreement personally, since it doesn't make sense to me what a separate topic from each of us has to do with our value to each other.

Also, I'd agree that there is no such thing as a frozen state of "nice guy" or "bad boy." I used the terms for the conventional purpose of highlighting how these phrases are commonly used to classify (mistakenly) people.

I still find it peculiar why the term often heard isn't "doormat guy" rather than "nice guy."


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Zen Mechanics said:


> As for the whole 'nice guys' argument, I agree with whoever said it's more about substituting the word 'nice' with 'doormat'. Girls do want someone who will be nice to them/do sweet things/etc etc, but they don't want someone overly desperate who falls over himself to do ANYTHING for her. There's a diff between just being nice in general and being pathetic.


I agree. I've always been attracted to males whom I've seen as stronger than I am or as Qolselanu puts it, the "alpha male". He still needs to be a nice guy, though - moral, compassionate, laid back, etc. I just don't want a guy who's submissive to me.


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## Laura (Nov 12, 2003)

...


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## smiles (Nov 13, 2006)

I think there is a difference between "nice guys" and guys who are nice.


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## GlowBug23 (Dec 21, 2007)

No. No, no, no.

Not ALL girls want bad guys. I -hate- bad guys and know plenty of girls who agree with me. In fact, if I perceive a guy as "nice" I like them even more. It's the quiet ones who smile and blush that make me want to just.... heh... stuff I can't say here.... to them.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

GlowBug23 said:


> No. No, no, no.
> 
> Not ALL girls want bad guys. I -hate- bad guys and know plenty of girls who agree with me. In fact, if I perceive a guy as "nice" I like them even more. It's the quiet ones who smile and blush that make me want to just.... heh... stuff I can't say here.... to them.


That's nice to know. That said, you are in the vast minority.


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## NightinGale (Oct 27, 2005)

Ardrum, you think sooooooooo much! In fact, you must be incredibly smart so I know you know the answer to your own question...I think you just wanted to start a discussion. You know why women prefer the "bad boy"--confidence. A guy could fall over himself to get my number as long as he's confident he'll pull it off. If he's not confident--forget it. Harsh truth, but you already knew it. 

It pains me to hear guys talk about the nice-guy syndrome because they speak as if there is a magic switch that they can flip to change the luck. There is no little tweak you can make to your behavior that will switch the flip and get you all the girls! It's experience that will build you confidence! Plain and painful truth!


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

NightinGale said:


> Ardrum, you think sooooooooo much! In fact, you must be incredibly smart so I know you know the answer to your own question...I think you just wanted to start a discussion. You know why women prefer the "bad boy"--confidence. A guy could fall over himself to get my number as long as he's confident he'll pull it off. If he's not confident--forget it. Harsh truth, but you already knew it.
> 
> It pains me to hear guys talk about the nice-guy syndrome because they speak as if there is a magic switch that they can flip to change the luck. There is no little tweak you can make to your behavior that will switch the flip and get you all the girls! It's experience that will build you confidence! Plain and painful truth!


I honestly think they were telling me I'm not confident or aggressive enough (although it would be nice if someone could be direct about what they're thinking for _once_ so I don't have to translate everything). I'm quite intellectually confident, but I guess the confidence that might be more desired is the more primitive kind in which you're willing to fight other males (for perceived just causes, of course) and/or be more commanding in regards to making plans and other such activities.

That's not something I will (or probably can) change about myself though because it isn't remotely natural for me to be physically aggressive or dominant. If a lot of people don't like me for the way that I am, then that's too bad for them because I'm not changing myself for such people. I like and accept myself far to strongly to act like a caveman to impress people who wouldn't like me otherwise.


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## NightinGale (Oct 27, 2005)

That's great to hear you have a high self-esteem when it comes to your personality. Now can you channel that energy into meeting people? With girls...hm...picking up girls is tricky (obvious, I know)...it's like we want to be chased so the guy needs the confidence to say/act/think "this is what I want and I'm gonna get it". In fact, when I see a guy I think is cute at a party, that's what I think. I try to put myself right next to him so we can talk, but I also mingle a lot with the other guests so I'm not focusing too much on one person. In the end, sometimes I get the guy, sometimes I don't, either way it doesn't bother me much.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

NightinGale said:


> That's great to hear you have a high self-esteem when it comes to your personality. Now can you channel that energy into meeting people? With girls...hm...picking up girls is tricky (obvious, I know)...it's like we want to be chased so the guy needs the confidence to say/act/think "this is what I want and I'm gonna get it". In fact, when I see a guy I think is cute at a party, that's what I think. I try to put myself right next to him so we can talk, but I also mingle a lot with the other guests so I'm not focusing too much on one person. In the end, sometimes I get the guy, sometimes I don't, either way it doesn't bother me much.


Fortunately I'm not looking to pick up girls. I find it interesting to think of how such a thing could be done though if that's what I did want.


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## NightinGale (Oct 27, 2005)

Okay, point taken.



ardrum said:


> I honestly think they were telling me I'm not confident or aggressive enough (although it would be nice if someone could be direct about what they're thinking for _once_ so I don't have to translate everything). I'm quite intellectually confident, but I guess the confidence that might be more desired is the more primitive kind in which you're willing to fight other males (for perceived just causes, of course) and/or be more commanding in regards to making plans and other such activities.


I think you were spot on with your insight as to what your gal pals were telling you. "Too nice" = socially awkward. Luckily, anyone can learn to be socially confident. Please don't think that being socially confident means you have to change who you are or become something you despise. Good luck <3


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Yeah, what's funny though is that these gal pals were still friends with me despite any sort of "lacking" they perceived in me.


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## NightinGale (Oct 27, 2005)

It doesn't take much to be friends with someone, cutie. It takes something extra special to be "more than"


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## SADFighter (May 4, 2007)

Nah, friends are important too. But I agree w/the 2nd half. It's different for girls. They can really get close (as just friends) with a guy without feeling anything whatsoever sexually much less romantically.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

I like using the terms "masculine side" and "feminine side".

And I actually used to call guys either "The Beatles" or "The Rolling Stones", where my little joke was that despite their 'good boy' and 'bad boy' images, respectfully, well their back stage antics proved that they all were nonetheless rock stars.

This is really no different from the 'good girls' and 'bad girls' division that people like to often use. And for a long time I had the image/persona of the 'good girl'.

Then I found out, like Jung had figured out, that one 'side' can't exist except with the other 'side'. By which I mean that both the desire for a monogamous or more emotional connection with people as well as the desire for sexual encounter(s), or protecting what you've got and on the other hand looking to get more -well, these 'feminine' and 'masculine' ways of being are just two sides of the same coin.

It's impossible to be interested in gaining without being equally as interested in protecting what you've got.
...which is something that explains really well why it is that some real "bad boys" (i.e. womaniser, out to get sex types of males) can't handle what they dish out and get very possessive when their woman or women look at other men. 

My understanding is that all human sexuality is fundamentally hypocritical. The degree to which a person can't handle 'taking it' is the degree to which they 'dish it out'. ...only what I mean by this is a little tricky: and the only way to really make sense, and 'draw the line' in terms of such a thing, is to 
1) basically aquaint oneself with one's inherent hypocrisy.
2) do this with the understanding that all people are hypocritical (and preferably accept this inner "non-identity" by using an approach that gets a person out of dualistic and therefore status -based thinking ...something like Buddhist Mindfulness I think would be ideal)
3) keep accepting everyday from then on that one is fundamentally hypocritical. And find out more and more how great such an approach and understanding of yourself is for putting balance and bringing sense to any situation

It is effectively like stripping away a sense of identity or label to who you are. And it is perfect also in how it allows a person to know themselves as all ways and not just one way. 

It takes a label like "good boy", "good girl", "bad boy" or "bad girl" and turns it all inside out and back to front. -Much like life tends to do anyway.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> I like using the terms "masculine side" and "feminine side".
> 
> And I actually used to call guys either "The Beatles" or "The Rolling Stones", where my little joke was that despite their 'good boy' and 'bad boy' images, respectfully, well their back stage antics proved that they all were nonetheless rock stars.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm confused. How are they two sides of the same coin? These desires seem quite different to me (but not opposites, as the coin analogy seems to suggest).



RubyTuesday said:


> It's impossible to be interested in gaining without being equally as interested in protecting what you've got.
> ...which is something that explains really well why it is that some real "bad boys" (i.e. womaniser, out to get sex types of males) can't handle what they dish out and get very possessive when their woman or women look at other men.


You haven't met men who are womanizers who do the "love them and leave them" routine? They don't seem very interested in protecting what they have/had.



RubyTuesday said:


> My understanding is that all human sexuality is fundamentally hypocritical. The degree to which a person can't handle 'taking it' is the degree to which they 'dish it out'. ...only what I mean by this is a little tricky: and the only way to really make sense, and 'draw the line' in terms of such a thing, is to
> 1) basically aquaint oneself with one's inherent hypocrisy.
> 2) do this with the understanding that all people are hypocritical (and preferably accept this inner "non-identity" by using an approach that gets a person out of dualistic and therefore status -based thinking ...something like Buddhist Mindfulness I think would be ideal)
> 3) keep accepting everyday from then on that one is fundamentally hypocritical. And find out more and more how great such an approach and understanding of yourself is for putting balance and bringing sense to any situation
> ...


I see how the labels (all labels for that matter) ultimately reflect an inaccurate view of reality, but I'm just not sure I understand how "dishing it out" and "taking it" are inextricably linked into a positive correlation.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

Your original post was about "nice" guys, and that term seems to have some very specific uses. 

As other people have pointed out, women often use the term "nice" to describe a man they like but don't personally find attractive. I think nice is more synonymous with pleasant (maybe non-threatening) than it is with kind, in this usage. A woman might describe two very different men as "nice", with the common elements being that she likes them both but isn't interested in either one physically.

"Too nice" might be a comment on a tendency of a man to be agreeable in the sense of being a pushover. Really, I don't imagine that's what women are saying to you, or meaning to say, ardrum. You're polite and thoughtful on here, but you're certainly not that kind of agreeable


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Atticus said:


> Your original post was about "nice" guys, and that term seems to have some very specific uses.
> 
> As other people have pointed out, women often use the term "nice" to describe a man they like but don't personally find attractive. I think nice is more synonymous with pleasant (maybe non-threatening) than it is with kind, in this usage. A woman might describe two very different men as "nice", with the common elements being that she likes them both but isn't interested in either one physically.
> 
> "Too nice" might be a comment on a tendency of a man to be agreeable in the sense of being a pushover. Really, I don't imagine that's what women are saying to you, or meaning to say, ardrum. You're polite and thoughtful on here, but you're certainly not that kind of agreeable


I think "nice" is often used in that way.

The "too nice" comment in my case probably regarded some sort of confidence/dominance issue. That's what I'm leaning toward as the most likely, at least. I vocalize agreement with someone only if I really do agree, and I will vocalize disagreement so long as it isn't likely to infuriate them personally.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > I like using the terms "masculine side" and "feminine side".
> ...


...I'm not so sure of what to say to that Ardrum. 
I guess what I mean by masculine side and feminine side being together in everything is that because any particular thing or way of being can only exist in relationship to what it isn't, or to what is unlike it, therefore already both the masculine and the feminine exist equally in say a person who largely identifies themselves as 'masculine'.

I believe that Jung described this as 'persona' and 'shadow', where shadow was the opposite characteristics to your everyday personality hidden on an subconscious level. And a very "feminine" (by which I mean, a sensitive) woman will have as her 'shadow' an equally as insensitive masculine side.

Individuation is the name that Jung gave to personal growth and development of the psyche, whereby a person owns and becomes increasingly aware of unconscious aspects of themselves. 
It is also the way by which a person is able to empathise with people whose life experience the person would otherwise not be able to relate to or understand. -or, a "feminine" woman (by which I mean to say "good girl") can empathise with a "masculine" point of view ("bad boy" or "bad girl") without having necessarily experienced such a person's lifestyle. It is possible to experience simply aspects of "the other" within you, to identify and acknowledge these, integrating this part with the rest of a person.


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## Cacciato (Aug 8, 2006)

exciting, interesting, fun, compassionate/passionate. 

These are 4 of the bigger traits that you need to attract girls. You don't necessarily need a lot of all 4, you could be very interesting but not very exciting, for example... Obviously in confident people you find these 4 traits more often.

Another thing to note is the 4 traits build off each other. Exciting can play into fun, interesting can play into exciting, etc.

What do "bad boys" have? Exciting, interesting, and somewhat fun.

What do "Nice guys" have? Well, compassion to an extent, but often in a limited manner, aka adoration towards the girl. Being passionate/compassionate towards other things, just in general, in also important. You could get by with just being a very compassionate person(although that also tends to make you interesting and a little exciting).



I get by mostly with interesting and compassionate. Although, i am still anti-social in some ways so things usually don't work, but I can attract girls pretty easily.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Cacciato said:


> exciting, interesting, fun, compassionate/passionate.
> 
> These are 4 of the bigger traits that you need to attract girls. You don't necessarily need a lot of all 4, you could be very interesting but not very exciting, for example... Obviously in confident people you find these 4 traits more often.
> 
> ...


.....that's cos you're Italian 

Ardrum: I gave a bit of a clumsy explanation with all of that stuff I wrote above. And I actually figure that looking at things in the way that I described works only if you already believe in it (I should have been more attentive when I was writing my ideas); and in believing in it, be kind of at a point whereby you've basically been able to give up attachments to yourself already.
In other words, it's relevant I figure for people who are fairly well established as far as accepting their point of view relative to anyone elses'.

When this isn't how things are, I prefer the Buddhist method of creating awareness and acceptance, (and working towards giving up the self more steadily) and of watching the mind lean.
My interpretation can create a duality or separation between where a person is (in terms of awareness of who they are relative to everyone) and where they are 'supposed to be'.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Cacciato said:


> exciting, interesting, fun, compassionate/passionate.
> 
> These are 4 of the bigger traits that you need to attract girls. You don't necessarily need a lot of all 4, you could be very interesting but not very exciting, for example... Obviously in confident people you find these 4 traits more often.
> 
> ...


While I don't drink too often or in excess these days, I've been told I'm pretty exciting/fun when I'm drunk. :lol

I think the interesting trait comes from meeting someone with similar interests, since this kind of highlights the person in your mind as opposed to the countless people who talk about so many things you might find boring or uninteresting.

The compassionate/passionate traits are basically what I think of when someone is described as "nice," and I'd add "empathetic" to that as well (although they're basically synonymous).


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## Lyric Suite (Mar 16, 2006)

I'm Italian, and i don't attract anybody. I must be doing something wrong.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Lyric Suite said:


> I'm Italian, and i don't attract anybody. I must be doing something wrong.


We can only conclude you must not really be Italian.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Lyric Suite said:


> I'm Italian, and i don't attract anybody. I must be doing something wrong.


...Don't sweat it too much, Lyric. Generally speaking I'm actually not attracted to Italian males: I find that whilst they do have a kind of ladies'-man charm, this is a catch-22; and I basically don't trust most of them.

So maybe you are missing this "ladies'-man charm", which could also very easily be "sleaziness"! :yes

So you may actually be doing something right :rub


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## FairleighCalm (May 20, 2007)

Just a thought about nice guys and bad boys. I fit into the category of "nice guy", but I have the ability to be a bad boy. I kinda think that bad boys rarely have the ability to be nice guys. Just a thought to bolster my own self perception.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

I'm going to head out and rob some banks...

My sex appeal is rising by the minute.


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## NightinGale (Oct 27, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> When this isn't how things are, I prefer the Buddhist method of creating awareness and acceptance, (and working towards giving up the self more steadily) and of watching the mind lean.
> My interpretation can create a duality or separation between where a person is (in terms of awareness of who they are relative to everyone) and where they are 'supposed to be'.


You're ten years older than I am so you have much more life experience, and I gotta ask--does this way of thinking help you to any lengthy extent? I don't have social anxiety or social anxiety tendencies anymore and that's because I had a coach to kick my *** and push me to socialize. Whenever I got philosophical with her (which was often!) she waved away my nonsense and told me to "just do it". So in my experience, all the thinking I did helped me very little in comparison to actually getting up and _doing_ something. Has learning about Jung and Buddhism helped you heal your SA?


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

NightinGale said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > When this isn't how things are, I prefer the Buddhist method of creating awareness and acceptance, (and working towards giving up the self more steadily) and of watching the mind lean.
> ...


...oh, you do sound a little angry there.

Well, let me fill you in: Buddhism is actually about relying upon perception (observing) rather than conception (thinking).

And, whilst being pushed to DO things may have helped you out quite a bit, maybe this same method isn't so helpful to others.

Incidentally, I actually agree quite a bit that thinking too much is a big cause of my (social) anxiety. The difference though is that with me this habit of mind is so well established and so reflexive that even pushing my self to just do things is not enough to ease my anxieties. Getting out into the world doesn't necessarily ease my anxiety and these last two years, I actually became more anxious, losing two of my jobs (which I pushed my self to stay in despite all my anxiety) and I in fact became even more anxious as a result.

So it isn't necessarily as simple as just DOING.

And that's where meditation and mindfulness comes in: particularly with someone like me. Because I agree to an extent with your sentiments and even some of your observations: thinking a lot does (in my experience) generate anxiety. This is a good observation.

...speaking of which, observation is what Buddhist mindfulness is about. In fact, it is as far removed from 'thinking' as it gets.

I could probably sum up what I am trying to communicate here to you with this analogy: forced socializing ("just do it") may work for the less hopelessly nerdy; but a real hopeless nerd may actually have to train their mind to think less and perceive more, otherwise even forcing themselves to 'do' still won't silence all that mental chattering that is a pretty well established habit.

So, in answer to your question: yes Buddhism has helped me. A hopeless nerd may in fact have to turn to a book and intellectualising in order to get the message that thinking only gets a person so far, that past that point, it really is a question of taking the plunge -and that overall, perception is how a person goes about freeing their mind and developing emotionally. ...but my interest is more in 'being' rather than in 'doing'. ...or if you like, my 'doing' method is to build up my skill in perceiving (non-thinking skill of mind).

'Doing' what you are inhibited about , to some degree, is actually also helpful: it is a fast way of changing beliefs about yourself and then being able to act and feel according to this new idea about yourself. But there is more than one way of going about things. ...I've also read that, if a person does not act immediately in accordance with whatever new thought they want to have about themselves, their mind will kill off this new thought. -So, being able to notice your thoughts and feelings (mindfulness) can help quit a well entrenched habit of thinking too much even when you are going about _just doing_. ...which, I actually think was what your coach was doing for you: acting as a mindful observer of your mind's inclination. ...so unknowingly you have been doing some mindfulness anyway, along with your actions-based method.

I do appreciate the reminder to get out more, though. I feel that I need a combination of mindfulness/perception (a 'natural', spontaneous skill of mind) with increasing interaction with others. Just 'doing' does not seem to work for me as even then I still habitually think all the time anyway.

And I also appreciate your reminder to notice my habit of thinking a lot. I don't mind at all to get this reminder. I don't hate my tendency toward thinking deeply or even feeling strong emotions, but I have been noticing these strong tendencies and the link with anxiety, (especially in social situations that involve spontaneity and not thinking). So, I want to notice such habits ...and this is enough to ease up on doing them.

So, keep the reminders coming: they are good. Yet, thinking deeply is not a bad thing in and of it self. And wanting to be more spontaneous is a choice -and for me it needs to be that I want to think less, otherwise I won't put the effort in to really see that I change my habits.


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## NightinGale (Oct 27, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> ...oh, you do sound a little angry there.


I'm not angry


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## JVP (Jun 27, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> Individuation is the name that Jung gave to personal growth and development of the psyche, whereby a person owns and becomes increasingly aware of unconscious aspects of themselves.


 Nice to hear Jung being brought up. I've read more deeply into Jung this year. I found the concept of Individuation to be a fascinating one. I took it to refer to a sort of self-realization beyond that of your "persona" or role in society. I'd just about given up hope on any kind of true self-realization being attainable, so this gave me a little hope. Though I hear that Individuation is extremely difficult.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

JVP said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > Individuation is the name that Jung gave to personal growth and development of the psyche, whereby a person owns and becomes increasingly aware of unconscious aspects of themselves.
> ...


Yeah, I like this book: "Buddhism: Plain and Simple", by Steve Hagen. It just seems to explain Mindfulness, why it works (compared to the traps a person often gets into when trying to change anything) and the basis of what it is (which is really basic: just observe things, including sometimes your thoughts).

Steve Hagen explains a pretty basic but good to know principle: how Buddhist Mindfulness can help a person get out of dualities. -That whole Yoda idea of: "There is no try. Only do or do not..." etc.

It's a lot about acceptance of how things are, as opposed to our trying to change things, which can often mean that a person is in fact continuing the usual reacting. And reacting is what maintains things. Mindfulness is just observing how things are and accepting instead of resisting or trying to fix things.

And that through doing this, a person is already acting in just the right measure, and according to what they can handle, for dealing with what is happening to them.

It's like a gentle approach towards creating change - that's kind of more like 'moving with change' and not really 'creating change' at all.

It takes practise though. But it's the best approach so far that I've come across.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

NightinGale said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > ...oh, you do sound a little angry there.
> ...


Maybe you were just being forceful, which maybe might be the right thing to do at times -like perhaps your coach is/was.
Sort of like, deep rooted habits of thinking are pretty difficult to alter. It takes a strange mix of forcefulness and determination, with a gentle patience and lack of judgement. ...I think it's hard to know the right measure unless you can already feel yourself have it.


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## NightinGale (Oct 27, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> Maybe you were just being forceful, which maybe might be the right thing to do at times -like perhaps your coach is/was.
> Sort of like, deep rooted habits of thinking are pretty difficult to alter. It takes a strange mix of forcefulness and determination, with a gentle patience and lack of judgement. ...I think it's hard to know the right measure unless you can already feel yourself have it.


ok


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## opinion_m (Feb 15, 2008)

I don't understand why guys say this...... I love the nice guys. In fact those are the only guys I like. But I guess I haven't talked to enough women to see what their preference is.
My best friend likes bad boys.. & I'm like "what is wrong with you!"

I think nice guy comes into play when the women they are attracted to keep them at friend level & they play the role of being sweet romantic, being there for her as a friend. But what about the women that are interested in the nice guys... ? There are women out there that want them its just not the women they are particulary interested in.

I have my ex on my myspace.. he posts those "women don't want the nice guys" bulletins and I'm thinking "What!" I was in love with him & we have dated off/on for 7yrs.
Then my other ex, this one that is kind of crazy... says every woman has broken up w him telling him he is too nice. I noticed though he has a lying problems so I think mabye he was lying. Bc he had a tendency to be rude sometimes. And he was emotionally abusive to his little boy in front of me which was really upsetting. 
The last guy that was purseing me.. he was WAY too young (I'm 27 he was 20). He could be really nice, more nice than most guys & very helpful. But he also had a very tempermental/emotional side. He would write me something sarcastic online often that hurt my feelings. Of course, being that he was too young I wouldn't have considered allowing him to date me. But what killed me even being nice to him is when I posted a video of memories with my dog that was close to my family... the dog died. He wrote "your such a girl" instead of showing sympathy. And he started posting controversial relationship stuff in his bulletins. I couldn't take his sarcasm & ill outlook on women so I removed him from my friends list & didn't allow him to talk to me.

In my life love often seems to be a love triangle. Even with the nice guys I like... they like someone else while I like them. And the guys that like me... I'm not generally interested in bc they weren't what I was looking for. I'd love to have someone some day that loved me just as much as I loved him!


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

opinion_m said:


> In my life love often seems to be a love triangle. Even with the nice guys I like... they like someone else while I like them. And the guys that like me... I'm not generally interested in bc they weren't what I was looking for. I'd love to have someone some day that loved me just as much as I loved him!


In high school I had at least one girl develop a crush on me despite my only being "nice" toward them. I wasn't trying to impress them though, and I didn't want what they wanted. Those were stressful times though, as one of the girls stalked me for a couple years. I remember just being shocked that she would like me though (although it was hard to deny when the reality involved being stalked). I'm total "friend" material, and she breached the rules (missed the memo that I'm a "friend" person?). :lol

At that time, I liked someone else though, so I think I can relate to what you say above (except the last sentence these days).


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## B-Dog (Dec 19, 2003)

I like this thread.

Though through reading it I thought of something, aren't all bad guys, nice guys when you first meet them? I don't really know where the distinctions are. I know at first glance you can't tell weather someone is a nice guy or a bad guy. I consider myself to be a nice guy. Though I have broken my share of hearts. I have a shelf life of anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. After that girls still find me attractive, but only physically and they keep me around only as friends. They sit and complain to me about their current boyfriend and how much of an *** he is. I think to myself _ I never did that stuff to you, I never did anything bad to you ever. I held the doors, payed for dinner and the movie tickets, I never tried take advantage of you while you were drunk. I made sure you got home safely or found a place to sleep. Yet you are dating this guy for longer than we dated and after all this you continue to date him _ Are you all masochists or what? Like I understand I may not have the aggressiveness to say, grab attention I blend in because I'm shy. I get that. I'm working on it (I realize I'm preaching to the choir here) but its the staying power that the "bad guy" has after its known he is a a-hole is what I don't get. Why don't I have staying power being honest and straightforward, kind and all that noise. I don't hide my motives and I am not perfect by any means but why does the friend lever get pulled the instant I let my guard down too. I also wish that while being chauffeured into the friend zone with the rest of the people she wont talk to she would tell me *HONESTLY* why I have been voted off the island. She didn't want to hurt my feelings. I told her she already did, she didn't care when she kissed me after I told her I didn't want to because she had a boyfriend even though they were having a fallout before she met me. I again, digress. Thats over, it stings mainly because I don't understand it.

Anyhoo. I was reading that "heartless-b!tches" site and they are frustrating. They have lumped all nice guys into the pity party area. I am pretty independent. I am a nice guy and I don't really think I am owed anything although a bit of luck would help since I don't have the law of averages in my favor since its so hard for me to meet new people. I also don't drag anyone down to my emotional depths. I don't want to cry on your shoulder about my issues. I do have self esteem issues but I try to put them aside and be confident, think confident and then be confident maybe it will stick. They do bring up valid points about the assertiveness and being too nice, I found the poem about it entertaining talking about when a girl is ripping your clothes off don't ask if you're hurting her, shut up and enjoy it. They tore apart what I thought to be a well written article about the nice guy dilemma and eviscerated the author. Using generalizations and stereotypes, so I quit reading.

I don't know. Its a tough game to play.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

I'm just a nice guy .
If she can't handle it, that's on her. :yes


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

B-Dog said:


> Anyhoo. I was reading that "heartless-b!tches" site and they are frustrating. They have lumped all nice guys into the pity party area.


That site is more for people who like to read simplistic rants rather than detailed and mature analysis. I wouldn't give it much credit.


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## B-Dog (Dec 19, 2003)

ardrum said:


> B-Dog said:
> 
> 
> > Anyhoo. I was reading that "heartless-b!tches" site and they are frustrating. They have lumped all nice guys into the pity party area.
> ...


Yea, at first I was hoping to get some insight or maybe another point of view about this but it was overwhelmingly negative. Pretentious word vomit from girls that seemed to be naive one at one point, got screwed and are now bitter at us for their bad decisions.

That sound about right?


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Well, I'd like to officially announce that I'm a "bad boy" now. I was pulled over for speeding, and I'm f*cking bad to the bone now. **** the law!


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> Well, I'd like to officially announce that I'm a "bad boy" now. I was pulled over for speeding, and I'm f*cking bad to the bone now. **** the law!


....wo-ho-hoah!! -Dayam! That's hot Adam  :b :lol


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## Zen Mechanics (Aug 3, 2007)

only a nice guy would actually pull over. a bad boy would floor it when the sirens came on and lead the cops through a terrifying race through the city streets before finally losing them and speeding off into the night


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Zen Mechanics said:


> only a nice guy would actually pull over. a bad boy would floor it when the sirens came on and lead the cops through a terrifying race through the city streets before finally losing them and speeding off into the night


Well, I pulled over, then jumped out, grabbed the pig's gun, and made him beg for his and his children's lives before I capped his ***.

I just didn't mention that part... seemed rather boring.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

You go with your bad self! :lol


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## eagleheart (Jun 14, 2007)

Note: Not that I would ever make any claim to being normal. :sigh



ardrum said:


> I've always found it surprising how many girls like the "bad boys" while simultaneously complaining about getting treated poorly, abused, etc.


"Bad boy" = uke
(Genuinely) "Nice guy" = :mushy



> I never knew people could be "too nice," and years later, when I no longer face the romantic relationship desires, I still don't get it. Saying that someone is "too nice" seems like saying that you wouldn't want to be "too happy" with your life.


:ditto :get

... :lol I recall many Phantom of the Opera fangirls' through-the-looking-glass characterizations of Erik (fluffybunny cutesy wutesy just needs luuuurrrrve) vs. Raoul ("fop" at best, evil wife-beating rapist at worst)... :eyes opcorn :um



B-Dog said:


> Though through reading it I thought of something, aren't all bad guys, nice guys when you first meet them?


After first meeting the one I went out with for a few weeks: "Even though I m not a mean guy, I dont know how to answer you in a polite way cause you ve really hurted me."

uke uke uke

After all that foolishmess (that was a typo but I like it), I appreciate the guy I've since fallen for all the more.


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## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

I think this is interesting:
http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/19/im-n ... niqueness/


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## ANCIENT (Aug 9, 2005)

my mom thinks i'm a bad boy. *combs pompadour*


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## sean88 (Apr 29, 2006)

Nice guys are boring and predictable. I'm nice enough, but I'm also insane, so it all works out.


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## holtby43 (Jan 1, 2008)

ardrum said:


> Well, I pulled over, then jumped out, grabbed the pig's gun, and made him beg for his and his children's lives before I capped his ***.
> 
> I just didn't mention that part... seemed rather boring.


lmfao :lol


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## McBeef (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't know what this bad boy/nice guy nonsense is anyway. How bout I'm a grown *** man with a job, bills, a car and my own place. I will however admit to flipping back and forth between Future Weapons and What Not to Wear when watching TV sometimes. Also I drive a pickup. But its a small mazda pickup.


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## watashi (Feb 6, 2008)

I don't think girls like guys who mistreat them, they like guys with confidence and bad guys happen to have that confidence. Perhaps what we really want is that sense of security. A lot of nice guys are timid, they make good friends, but don't excite in romantic way. Not talking for every girl out there, personally I usually fall for confident guys.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

watashi said:


> I don't think girls like guys who mistreat them, they like guys with confidence and bad guys happen to have that confidence. Perhaps what we really want is that sense of security. A lot of nice guys are timid, they make good friends, but don't excite in romantic way. Not talking for every girl out there, personally I usually fall for confident guys.


So the term should be "timid guys," not "nice guys" then. I'm sure if some nice, confident cagefighter guy wouldn't often be rejected for being too nice if he was compassionate and considerate. I think "nice" is getting the bad rap, when in fact women mean "timid" or "unconfident." Perhaps we should deliver dictionaries to people when they bash someone for being "nice."


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

I'm still confused, after years of these kinds of threads on SAS, about what a nice guy is.

I know my name is BeNice but that has nothing to do with me being nice. I guess I am, though.


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## sprinter (Nov 22, 2003)

Being bad is easy...yeah I think go rip the labels off my mattress right now! That's how bad I am. :evil


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

sprinter said:


> Being bad is easy...yeah I think go rip the labels off my mattress right now! That's how bad I am. :evil


Now you're talking!

I'm going to beat up some little kids and not hold any doors for anyone! :twisted


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## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

BeNice said:


> I'm still confused, after years of these kinds of threads on SAS, about what a nice guy is.


I'm still confused about what a "bad boy" is. Someone who cheats on his girlfriend? Who hits women?


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

jane said:


> BeNice said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still confused, after years of these kinds of threads on SAS, about what a nice guy is.
> ...


Hmm... maybe a guy who just wants sex, doesn't care how a woman feels, doesn't do anything nice or generous, doesn't listen, etc. How attractive!!


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## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

ardrum said:


> jane said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still confused about what a "bad boy" is. Someone who cheats on his girlfriend? Who hits women?
> ...


So basically, you consider yourself the opposite. You want more than just sex, you care about a woman's feelings, you are nice and generious in your actions, you're an excellent listener, and to any sane woman, you should be very attractive. Have I got that right?


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## B-Dog (Dec 19, 2003)

jane said:


> I think this is interesting:
> http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/19/im-n ... niqueness/


I really like this article. Sobering, however.

I think the labels that were given in this thread are misleading. I like the "timid" label. I can see how I become boring to a girl after a while just because I take no initiative on anything. I am not really spontaneous or have nothing to offer to the opposite sex in that regard. I'm just thoughtful and in most cases funny. I don't really know why I have to participate in some sort of gimmick to impress girls this is what leads to resentment and spiteful comments like just assuming someone is "bad"?

I dunno.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

I personally have found that almost every "bad boy" I've known ends up being a wanker when it comes to female-male relationships.

I've maybe met one, at the most a few, who are actually not completely full of themselves to the point in which any sign of appreciation from a female doesn't register to them as a sign of weakness. -Namely, a guy I had a thing going with named, Paul, who I played soccer with about 4 years ago.
He was reasonably sensitive and mature. (Then again, just like I was more aggressive at sport than he was, he may have been bowing down a little -hard to say, in fact...)

I have had good interactions with "bad boys" -however, never in the context of my actually having a crush on them. And from my experience: Heaven forbid if I did -because as soon as that is revealed, they take it as a sign of weakness.

...I could let my self get all hurt- my self esteem shattered, etc... except that I don't see the point: I figure it's more of an insult for them, that anyone showing a liking for them is met with power games and all the rest of that 'status crap'. -Essentially, it's a sign that they can't conceive of how anyone could genuinely appreciate them, without them needing to manipulate others in order to get their attention.

-How sad! And I sure as hell don't bother wasting my time once that happens. ....suffice to say that I believe my self to have a higher degree of real self esteem as opposed to arrogant egoism and petty immaturity. And not to mention, that I am actually capable of not taking my self so ridiculously seriously.

...power games -pah! ...I have better things to do with my time :yes

Moreover, I actually find it possible to be friends with men whose sex lives I don't personally find my self compatible with. ...so, despite that belief that some males seem to have -that "women and men can never be just friends" ...I disagree completely. Since I see no problem with having a liking for someone and yet still having the ability to accept that romance/sex wise you're just incompatible -and not ask of them anymore than they are willing and able to give you.

Such things are not a major issue for me. ....but then I'm bored with playing retarded power games and all the rest of that wanky crap. The kind that's about proving my self and how great I am ...I honestly don't see the necessity, since they are about manipulating others and others emotions in order to get something from them that they wouldn't give you of _their own free will._

...I guess you could say then, that if "bad boy" is a reference to a man who is _really_ sure of himself, fearless, a high status Alpha male ...then I guess that I kind of outlast the majority of them. ...since according to this definition of "bad" -as being tough and sure of your own worth- well I'm "_badder_" than the vast majority of ones that I've ever encountered.

...It's just like Tony said (the toughest, highest status male I played soccer with) -he said that to make team picking easier, we'd best put me on one side and all the boys on the other.

...yep, Badass ! :evil ...almost like I'm more manly than most men!


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

jane said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> > jane said:
> ...


Actually my response was rather tongue-in-cheek and did not address myself.

Since you raise the topic though... I don't want ANY sex (I'm borderline asexual), I do tend to care about people's feelings (which would include women), and I am essentially nice, but not always. I could be more generous as well. I do think I'm a good listener, but I don't think I should be very attractive to any sane woman. Heck, I'm not even interested in romantic relationships. I prefer close friendships.

You're close though. Well, not really.


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## jane (Jan 30, 2006)

I'm having a difficult time getting this straight, Ardrum. 

-You have a definition of a "bad boy."
-From this we can get the definition of a "good guy."
-You've been told that you're "too nice."

If you don't fit the good guy classification, then what exactly makes you a nice person?


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

jane said:


> I'm having a difficult time getting this straight, Ardrum.
> 
> -You have a definition of a "bad boy."
> -From this we can get the definition of a "good guy."
> ...


Well, that "bad boy" definition I used above was made in a mood of jest. In reality, those terms make for a false dichotomy. On page two, I wrote the following:



ardrum said:


> Yeah, I don't think the dichotomy of "nice guys" or not "nice guys" is very complete either. There is complexity to each individual, so labeling in this way is ultimately an inaccurate practice in the first place. In addition, each person's usage of the phrase "nice guy" likely means something different.


I can't be entirely certain what was meant by the phrase "too nice" when it was applied to me, but I think the criticism was used as a euphemism for something else. I'm not an "alpha male" sort of guy, so perhaps I'm not dominant enough to those people who made the comment. I just wish that the truth was shared rather than using the word "nice," which isn't honest since kindness doesn't tend to be an objectionable trait to most people.

I think that is how "nice guy" is used most of the time, in fact. It is a spoken criticism that is actually a mere euphemism for a criticism that some women are simply too uncomfortable to explicitly deliver to a guy's face. This explanation makes the most sense to me.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> Actually my response was rather tongue-in-cheek and did not address myself.
> 
> Since you raise the topic though... I don't want ANY sex (I'm borderline asexual), I do tend to care about people's feelings (which would include women), and I am essentially nice, but not always. I could be more generous as well. I do think I'm a good listener, but I don't think I should be very attractive to any sane woman. Heck, I'm not even interested in romantic relationships. I prefer close friendships.
> 
> You're close though. Well, not really.


Yeah: close but no cigar, right?!! :mum

,,, :doh :fall -Oh, for Christ's sake: just go out and get laid, already!!!

(I'd gladly help you out in that department, 'cept it means traveling how many kilometres!)

...but seriously though: you're utterly exasperating!!! :spank (I'm sending you an 'electric spank'!!)

...I have the feeling that in the morning, when I'm a tad bit more sober: that I'm going to regret having said all this ops


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> > Actually my response was rather tongue-in-cheek and did not address myself.
> ...


:drunk

I do think you've had too much to drink. :eek :lol

Thanks for the laugh though. :squeeze


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

I read that article. There is definitely a lot of truth there. I probably have been _that guy_ before.

I pretty much stopped being frustrated about women. That whole mindset, that you deserve love so much, doesn't really get you very far by the time you are in your 20's. People are going to do things that you don't agree with or understand... or think isn't fair. It's just part of life. My friend keeps going back to my friend (former friend?) that treated her very badly, mentally and physically. She would sleep with him, even though they aren't together, because she loves him, or thinks she does. He would kick her out in the morning, call her a wh--e and talk trash behind her back. I was letting it get to me and I pretty much messed up my friendship with her. The best thing that I could have done from the very beginning, if I really cared about her, would have been to let it be and not be his friend and dealt with the fact that whatever they had going, no matter how sick it was, was none of my business. Well, I guess I'm not his friend now. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is... there are some dickhead guys out there that treat women badly. I've seen it in more than enough situations and I still don't understand it. It doesn't make me a better person, though... because "I wouldn't do that". It doesn't mean women like being pushed around, treated badly, etc. Maybe they are attached to who the guy was before he turned into a monster and still have hope that he'll change, I don't know. If you focus on other people's relationships and then look at yourself... you probably aren't in the right frame of mind.

I'm finally at the point where I realize women actually like me... my unemployed, live at home, non-driving self. Scary. It's taken a long time. In my particular case, I messed up my friendship(s) and that created a barrier in the way of me pursuing someone that I like/likes me. Loneliness sucks balls, and I feel extremely lonely all of the time now because I am stuck out in the suburbs in the winter, I don't drive, have no one to talk to, no phone, and now no friends except my sister and her b/f... but being lonely doesn't mean you deserve love. Years ago you would not find me typing this! I have been dealing with it by writing songs. I even started singing and have one on MySpace. Don't get me wrong. I'm not particularly positive about my life now. It sucks. I hate it and I want to leave so badly... If I had money I'd be out of here... North Carolina, California, wherever. But I don't have much else. Sitting around and being envious, jealous, etc. isn't going to help. You can't live your life feeling sorry for yourself...


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > ardrum said:
> ...


 :blush Yeah... Sorry Adam! -I was a little intoxicated last night (not so good, I really need to quit doing that).


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## LoverBoy (May 9, 2007)

You need both inside you
A nice guy to have that comfort and love connection and security
You need the bad boy inside you to seduce spice up things and for variety in a relationship.


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## SJG102185 (Feb 21, 2008)

nice guys finish last but bad boys are trash


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## sean88 (Apr 29, 2006)

LoverBoy said:


> You need both inside you
> A nice guy to have that comfort and love connection and security
> You need the bad boy inside you to seduce spice up things and for variety in a relationship.


Hollaaaa, you got it!


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

LoverBoy said:


> You need both inside you
> A nice guy to have that comfort and love connection and security
> You need the bad boy inside you to seduce spice up things and for variety in a relationship.


...I think I read about that in "Cleo" mag once :con ... And, well, I'm openminded -so, each to their own, of course :stu Still, I'm just not sure that most women would go for that sort of thing.

:no ..... :duck


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> LoverBoy said:
> 
> 
> > You need both inside you
> ...


 :roll Shame, Ruby! Shame! :no


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## atypicalpersona (Feb 22, 2008)

I like to think I'm a nice guy, but I think the term 'doormat' fits me better. Fortunately I know I'd suck in a relationship because I'm not assertive and open or expressive enough to make someone happy. Or atleast it would take longer than most girls would be willing to wait for me to open up.


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## scairy (Sep 18, 2005)

News alert! Nice guys suck.


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## B-Dog (Dec 19, 2003)

scairy said:


> News alert! Nice guys suck.


Error, more explination needed.


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## Mc Borg (Jan 4, 2008)

ardrum said:


> I've always found it surprising how many girls like the "bad boys" while simultaneously complaining about getting treated poorly


Exactly, my older sister always ends up with the bad boy type of guys and is always complaining about them, but she's always ends up getting involved with the same type of guys. :con :con :con


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## sean88 (Apr 29, 2006)

Girls who go for the wankers have a low self-esteem, the same can be said for p-whipped boys.


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## kevinffcp (Aug 30, 2007)

I AM BOTH~~~ :banana :evil


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## Roberto (Aug 16, 2004)

piss on them


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## gothsweetchikie (Mar 22, 2007)

I love the nice guys. Funny how I keep thinking I find nice guys then they treat me like ****! :get :wtf


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## Shauna (Jul 29, 2006)

[right:1c5ngo3m]Its even harder for me to trust a nice guy. They are just soo rare, and too good to be true. I'm always thinking its just an act they are putting on, so i eventually just cut them off, and don't even give them a chance. I'm very cautious when it comes to men like them. Most of them only pretend to be nice, then later on ,the real them starts coming out. At least with the jerks, you pretty much know what you are geting.

The bad/sorry guys are more appealing to me, because i feel they are all i'm capable of geting. Due to all of my "issues", i don't have much going for me...so dating a jerk feels more comfortable. I guess its a low self esteem thing. I don't feel worthy of a nice guy, who has his sh*t together. Nice guys are also kind of clingy and are just generally toooooo nice, and that kinda irks me :con They usually end up geting used by females because of that. I hate suffocating guys. I need my space. I'm a moody woman.

.....I'm in a position now, where 3 guys are interested in me. The 1st guy is very nice(own place,intelligent,good job,respectful,etc), the 2nd one is nice as well, but he very needy,controlling, and very clingy. He wanted me to move in with him, after only knowing me for a week. Offered me a job :afr and a car. The 3rd guy, i meet on the 4th(friday). Now this one, is just sorry(no job(think he sells drugs),drink,smokes,not too bright,high school dropout,no place to live..goes from house to house,no phone,no goals or ambitions). The sad thing is, i actually dig him more than the other 2 guys :sigh :wtf I guess i feel like, i'm not capable of anything better[/right:1c5ngo3m]


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## onlylordknows (Apr 27, 2004)

I think the best combination is to be the nice guy with an edge
you are nice and genuine, but there is a side of you that brings sex appeal, you have backbone and have self esteem. You like yourself. You also have the willingness to walk away and not care. 

You must also lead. I found this to be very important.. lead lead lead and make decisions


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

Nice guys all the way. This is all.


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## Superman23 (Jul 6, 2008)

I've done a lot of studying on this because I'm considered to be a nice guy by most women and all the same stuff happened to me too

Basically this is whats going on:

The dude is insecure and tries to be really, really nice and does everything he can to get her to like him. This is actually a turnoff. A woman doesn't want a doormat, they want a man to share their life with

Plus when you're being "really really nice" you're actually lying about who you really are. You're pretending to be somebody else to impress her

In other words be confident within YOURSELF. Be who you really are and stop being afraid of being rejected. She's not any better than you. If she doesn't like you then go find another one

BTW women don't like bad boys. They're just attracted to the confidence. Once they find out who he really is they usually dump him


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## Michael W (Apr 30, 2008)

I don't know, but my ex dumped me for a controlling, violent alcoholic with tourette's that punches holes in walls when he gets mad, and he's 8 years older than she is. 

I'm still confused as to why, it's a fascinating thing to ponder actually. When I think about it, I realize that they're both sick, twisted individuals and probably deserve each other, Good for them! I guess I started dating her because she had a "thing" for me and I was desperate for a relationship. You learn from your mistakes.

I consider myself to be an all-around good person, but I show respect and kindness only to people who prove they are worth it, how exactly they are supposed to "prove it" I can't really tell you, I know them when I see them, it's just a vibe they give off that I can sense. Alot of people probably consider me to be an ******* or rude because I have the aforementioned wary "f*** you" attitude. Most people don't get me or my attitude and it really doesn't bother me anymore. I've become more socially confident by realizing that I'm different and that's just the way it is. If somebody doesn't like it, well, they don't have to, do they? :b


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## colonelpoop (Jun 18, 2008)

Superman23 said:


> I've done a lot of studying on this because I'm considered to be a nice guy by most women and all the same stuff happened to me too
> 
> Basically this is whats going on:
> 
> ...


Great post superman, everyone needs to read that.

Women do not like assholes or jerks, men need to realize this. Women want the nice guy, but they also want him to be confident too.

A partner who seeks approval, afarid to express himself out of fear of rejection, these things are not attractive. These are the kinds of nice guys that finish last, not the confident ones.


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## sprinter (Nov 22, 2003)

I think when dating women like a guy who doesn't put her on a pedestal. But when married it seems woman like their husband to put her on a pedestal, they don't really like brutal honesty etc. 

For example wife to husband: "Do these pants make me look fat?" husband: "No honey those pants don't make you look fat, it's all those double cheesburgers you've been eating that are making you look fat." That kind of brutal honesty doesn't seem to go over well when married. :wife


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

sprinter said:


> I think when dating women like a guy who doesn't put her on a pedestal. But when married it seems woman like their husband to put her on a pedestal, they don't really like brutal honesty etc.
> 
> For example wife to husband: "Do these pants make me look fat?" husband: "No honey those pants don't make you look fat, it's all those double cheesburgers you've been eating that are making you look fat." That kind of brutal honesty doesn't seem to go over well when married. :wife


:lol

Yeah, the whole "does this make me look fat" thing is so cliche and dishonestly asked that it just screams "turn-off." Asking people to say what you want to hear, rather than the truth, is not for me.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

sprinter said:


> I think when dating women like a guy who doesn't put her on a pedestal. But when married it seems woman like their husband to put her on a pedestal, they don't really like brutal honesty etc.
> 
> For example wife to husband: "Do these pants make me look fat?" husband: "No honey those pants don't make you look fat, it's all those double cheesburgers you've been eating that are making you look fat." That kind of brutal honesty doesn't seem to go over well when married. :wife


...You seem to be missing the point! -Honesty is fine and even desired (if put in a polite enough way, though) but being brutal -that isn't desired.

A woman may be aware of being overweight -actually: screw it: I'll use the word 'person'... and put this hypothetical situation to you...

Say you had recently gained weight -were more stressed and were eating more (or, maybe anti depressants had altered your metabolism...whatever...) And, being self conscious, you wanted to know what clothes emphasized your weight gain versus those that did the opposite.

That's a pretty simple request.

And now imagine, instead of helping you out with this request, your loving partner points out that you've been over eating. ...when they didn't ask you whether they had gained weight - they asked you just what clothes they could get away with wearing (probably because they realise how much weight they've gained).

....I'm on your wife's side. A comment like that *is* insensitive.
It shows how much concern you have for how she looks.

...Fat people can still be attractive. If they dress well in clothes that flatter them and -oh, yeah, that's right- if they have a personality that you really like. (and, yes I am overweight :b ...but if I was 10 kilos lighter, no offence, I wouldn't bother with a guy who based our 'relationship' so much on how I looked. -No offense, but I'd be too bored to waste much time being offended once I grew old and fat and lost he interest...)


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## CoconutHolder (Oct 13, 2007)

^^ I agree with Rubes. :yes ^^
Great points!
You rock.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

CoconutHolder said:


> ^^ I agree with Rubes. :yes ^^
> Great points!
> You rock.


Thank you, Coco!  :lol


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## Shauna (Jul 29, 2006)

ardrum said:


> sprinter said:
> 
> 
> > I think when dating women like a guy who doesn't put her on a pedestal. But when married it seems woman like their husband to put her on a pedestal, they don't really like brutal honesty etc.
> ...


I like when a man can be blunt and honest with me. I'm very sensitive, but i can take it(just don't be evil or verbally abusive wit it) Don't try to sugarcoat things. By telling me the truth, maybe i can work on those things...if they are valid flaws(rolls eyes). I expect to be honest with you as well. If i think you drink or smoke too much, don't eat enough, curse to much...imma tell you. I'm learning how to be more blunt. I told my sister she gaining some weight the other day(which is the truth), and i hurt her feelings Didnt mean to say it, it just popped out of my mouth. She got mad, and said i needed to gain weight, because i'm soo skinny :blah Didn't hurt my feelings at all, because i already knew that. If you ask me about your appearence, i will just tell you the truth..IN A NICE WAY!!

I'm very critical of others, and myself as well. Alot of times, i have to bite my tounge :troll


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

I think it's been qualified a bit differently in your example, Ruby.



RubyTuesday said:


> Say you had recently gained weight -were more stressed and were eating more (or, maybe anti depressants had altered your metabolism...whatever...) And, being self conscious, you wanted to know what clothes emphasized your weight gain versus those that did the opposite.


If the question regards which clothes emphasize weight gain, the answer must be an article of clothing. The way you describe it above would be a fantastic approach to get a recommendation! Rather than ask whether you look like you've gained weight or are "fat" in a particular piece of clothing, the question is posed in a constructive manner. Now, if the person responds, "You're a fatty, Big Momma!" then that isn't very helpful (is possibly hurtful) since it doesn't even address the question she asked.

If the question though has something to do with whether one looks like he/she has gained weight, then the moral dilemma comes up. Say the person does appear to have gained significant weight (20% gain or so). Depending on the person, they might want the honest opinion (the 20% gain), a sugar-coated white lie ("Maybe, but it's hardly noticeable!"), or an out and out lie ("Hell noes! You haven't gained a pound!").

I wouldn't ever have any intention of hurting someone's feelings, but I don't at all like to compromise honesty/truth if all it does is promote a delusional manner of thinking. Another way to put it would be that I'd be totally honest while trying to empathize with the receiver of the comments to minimize potential hurt. I wouldn't compromise the truth though. If someone wants/expects me to lie to them by telling them fantasies, I simply won't.

The friends I've made actually appreciate me for this, and I've had them actually tell me (multiple times) how one of my best traits is my categorical honesty with them. If someone approaches me and wants me to tell them something that doesn't gel with my sincere perspective/beliefs, they are asking me to exhibit a dishonest trait that I abhor.

So saying "You look fat, honey" isn't the right response to the question posed in the example you gave. A constructive answer, if known, is appropriate when asked _which_ clothing emphasizes one trait or another.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Shauna said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> > sprinter said:
> ...


Yeah, I think this is a good direction. If you emphasize and explain how and why you're concerned about the person (if you initially hurt their feelings), they might come around and see you have no evil intent in being honest. I think it's FAR more caring to sincerely share concerns, even if they initially might hurt someone's feelings. Honesty and openness triumphs in the end.

Also, I agree that a person shouldn't be abusive with their honesty. It's one thing to be honest, and quite another to purposely TRY to control, dominate, or hurt another person. Concern and sincere empathy prevents that from happening though.

You're totally right to observe that there is a nice way to tell the truth. That's the whole point though---not to compromise the truth in being nice/caring.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> I think it's been qualified a bit differently in your example, Ruby.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...being that "Do I look fat in these pants" is the 'typical female' question, as a female, I have a good idea of what this question is actually asking. 
-And that is: do these pants flatter my shape or do they emphasize my flaws or show I look fat.

The person isn't asking: Am I fat? 
-If they were, they'd probably ask this question straight out.

Otherwise, they probably would ask this specifically at another time and not when they were trying on a particular piece of clothing.

And I think that the distinction is important -even if "the male mind" (or should I say, "the male mind" not in-tune with how he'd feel in the same position...) misses the subtlety.

...Since, in missing the subtlety, this seems a good indication that, whilst the woman is thinking about emphasizing good points and minimizing bad points based on how she dresses, the male misses this entirely and is just thinking about her physique -pure and simple. ...as if this overrides any other concern, including her focusing on what's good about her body and, likewise, what's still good about her.

What is focussed upon specifically is a good indication of priorities. And, attitude is also a good indication of priorities.


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

Sprinter can fend for himslef, but I think he was being facetious.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Atticus said:


> Sprinter can fend for himslef, but I think he was being facetious.


 :no ...When will you men EVER learn!! :stu :no :no

...That question: "Do I look fat in these pants" is more than just a simple question ...-it's a test.

And if you get the answer wrong: there'll be HELL to pay! ...It's almost like asking: "Do you really love me?"

...And if you can't figure _that much_ out on your own, then no amount of 'coaching' from women, as far as understanding the female mind, will get you anywhere.

It's a question of sensitivity...

You say, "I think he was being facetious" -WRONG ANSWER!!! :b 

You are simply not supposed to even HAVE such thoughts. ...Now, no one's perfect, and no-one's always non-superficial -but it's pretty obvious that a woman (a person!  ) would not want to be answered even with such an _attitude_!

And I stand by this point.

-A one off slip (involving being annoyed at someone's over-eating or not taking care of themselves) is human. But thinking that on an everyday basis -well it's cause for divorce!

...When will you men ever learn?! :sus :stu ...."Do I look 'fat' in these pants?" ...it's a 'test question'. And the sooner you realize that the incorrect answer (or, the polite thoughtful answer) is more often the *right* answer, the better off you will be yourselves. ...give it up: you can't win in this scenario.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> ...When will you men ever learn?! :sus :stu ...."Do I look 'fat' in these pants?" ...it's a 'test question'. And the sooner you realize that the incorrect answer (or, the polite thoughtful answer) is more often the *right* answer, the better off you will be yourselves. ...give it up: you can't win in this scenario.


You can sort of win if you just avoid any and all girls who give such tests, even if that means all of them. :lol


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > ...When will you men ever learn?! :sus :stu ...."Do I look 'fat' in these pants?" ...it's a 'test question'. And the sooner you realize that the incorrect answer (or, the polite thoughtful answer) is more often the *right* answer, the better off you will be yourselves. ...give it up: you can't win in this scenario.
> ...


...Ooooohhhh!!!!!!!!! :b  :lol


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

The next time a girl asks me if she's fat, I'll calculate her BMI with her weight/height, give her the resulting number, tell her to check her body fat percentage, and tell her to be the judge herself... KEEP ME OUT OF IT!!!! :lol


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## Atticus (Nov 10, 2003)

RubyTuesday said:


> Atticus said:
> 
> 
> > Sprinter can fend for himslef, but I think he was being facetious.
> ...


Of course you're right, Ruby. Men, dare I say people, are capable of learning, We just aren't very capable of applying what we've learned.

And based on how reasonable I just was, I declare VICTORY.


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## CoconutHolder (Oct 13, 2007)

I'm on Ruby's side. :yes 

(I got your back, homey.  :lol :b )


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Atticus said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > Atticus said:
> ...


WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!! :mum -humpth!!!

Women are mostly ALWAYS RIGHT when it comes to marriage!! ..you guys don't stand a chance! ...and the SOONER you learn this: the HAPPIER YOU WILL BE!!!   :b :lol

...ya just can't WIN in this game, ya see! For one thing: it's about sharing. ...And when it comes to the famous: "Do I look fat in these pants?" question:- you only have so much room for making a mistake. ...Very -VERY- important question: it measures more than just how fat you think she's gotten 

...If ya know what's good for you: you'll abide by my simple rules  :yes

-Know when you cannot win: tis the sign of a true man, my friend!!!!!!! :b :lol :lol


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

CoconutHolder said:


> I'm on Ruby's side. :yes
> 
> (I got your back, homey.  :lol :b )


I luv ya Coco!!!! :yes :yes :squeeze  ...and :kma :teeth ...to ALL men!!!! :lol


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## sprinter (Nov 22, 2003)

lol that was just a joke I heard a comedian tell not long ago. If forget which comedian. But really I do suspect some women are turned off by guys who are nice to them when dating but then want something else when married and expect to be treated better. Just from comments from single women versus married women or women in long term relationships.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> ...ya just can't WIN in this game, ya see! For one thing: it's about sharing. ...And when it comes to the famous: "Do I look fat in these pants?" question:- *you only have so much room* for making a mistake.


There's not _that_ much room since she fills out those pants so much with thems thunder thighs. :yes :lol :banana :evil :evil :evil :evil


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## nubly (Nov 2, 2006)

sprinter said:


> lol that was just a joke I heard a comedian tell not long ago. If forget which comedian. But really I do suspect some women are turned off by guys who are nice to them when dating but then want something else when married and expect to be treated better. Just from comments from single women versus married women or women in long term relationships.


it was married when children when al bundy said: "its not the dress that makes you look fat its the fat that makes you look fat"


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > ...ya just can't WIN in this game, ya see! For one thing: it's about sharing. ...And when it comes to the famous: "Do I look fat in these pants?" question:- *you only have so much room* for making a mistake.
> ...


 :sus :sus :bah :mum -*******!!!

....hope for your sake, you're rich!!.... :spank :mum

Here's me "Bastardcard"!!! :kma :bah

http://parodie.com/monetique/bastardcard.jpg


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

I like how it uses the word "trinkets" to describe what is being purchased.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

nubly said:


> sprinter said:
> 
> 
> > lol that was just a joke I heard a comedian tell not long ago. If forget which comedian. But really I do suspect some women are turned off by guys who are nice to them when dating but then want something else when married and expect to be treated better. Just from comments from single women versus married women or women in long term relationships.
> ...


...And I'm sure Peg would have countered with something along the lines of... "I just try to forget that the hair no longer growing on his head is now growing out of his ears!" :b


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> I like how it uses the word "trinkets" to describe what is being purchased.


...Huh?! :stu Could you please elaborate...!?? :con (...least then, I'll be able to *get ya*! :b )


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Ears get bigger and bigger as you age. I've seen old guys with ears that have a circumference comparable to an appetizer plate's!


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> ardrum said:
> 
> 
> > I like how it uses the word "trinkets" to describe what is being purchased.
> ...


The phonics of the word.... very pleasing, that's all.

"Honey, guess who I saw today!" - husband
"Who?" - wife
"Your best friend Sally! Yeah, we had intimate relations!" - husband, excited to tell her
Wife looks shocked and cries...
"Whoa whoa whoa?? Honey, what's wrong?? Look, I got you some trickets with my BastardCard!" - husband
Wife's face lightens up, she turns her head to the side and smiles at him... "Oh, you shouldn't have!"
"A wife like you deserves it! Now, where's dinner?" - husband


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> I like how it uses the word "trinkets" to describe what is being purchased.


...Please explain...


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

ardrum said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > ardrum said:
> ...


..oh, I think I get it: it's a shovenistic take. "Trinkets" -as in, all that a woman need is 'trinckets' to enable her to get over the little indiscretions!!

...Well, what do I have to say to that!?!!

-Nothing, except that the whole _thing _was IRONIC!! :yes ...just in case, ya didn't pick up on it! :b


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Yeah, I hope people realize when I'm serious. 

(This post here is not serious. I don't care if people realize...or do I?)


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Superman23 said:


> I've done a lot of studying on this because I'm considered to be a nice guy by most women and all the same stuff happened to me too
> 
> Basically this is whats going on:
> 
> ...


No offence, but it's not like we haven't heard this a million times before.

I am plenty confident and satisfied in who I am, with the exception of social anxiety. It's not as easy as to just stop being afraid of rejection. It's a real fear, and it only gets worse as you get older because as you waste more and more time, you get more and more desperate. There's nothing you can do to curb that effect.

I've always been really nice to girls because that's who I am. I was raised to be nice to girls. What is wrong with being nice to girls?

I don't buy the, "they're attracted to confidence, not the bad boy" bull****. If they were just attracted to their confidence, why would they just go to another "bad boy" when they split with the first one? I know a girl who used to work in same mall I do. She was married to a damn nice guy, they lived in a nice house and they have 2 kids. She just filed for divorce and now she's dating some local deejay who hangs out in local clubs with drug dealers. Good job!


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## Superman23 (Jul 6, 2008)

PGVan said:


> Superman23 said:
> 
> 
> > I've done a lot of studying on this because I'm considered to be a nice guy by most women and all the same stuff happened to me too
> ...


The main reason women go with nice guys (wusses) for awhile is because they're seeking attention. They dont really like the nice guy, they want him to put her on a pedestal to make her feel better about herself. Once she feels good again she leaves him. She may also be with him because of money

There's nothing wrong with treating a woman with respect. What's wrong is treating her like she's better than you. You have to get her to think YOU are the prize

I have SAD and I finally reached that point of not caring anymore. My last GF dumped me not too long ago and she didnt even speak to me in person. Since then I said to myself Im not going to pretend to be somebody Im not anymore to impress anybody and I feel a lot better. Im happy with or without a girlfriend. Once you get to that point then you stop being clingy and desperate acting and she actually chases you


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## Snickersnack (Jun 21, 2008)

I like the point that ardrum (I agree with most of what he's been saying) made earlier about "nice guy" just being a euphemism for being overly eager to please. I _hope_that's the way most women interpret it, rather than having it mean literally "nice". I think I'm nice. I like being nice. I like being sensitive. I like not spending Friday nights pounding back Jello shots at topless nightclubs. I _like_ the basic guy I am, other than being horribly insecure. I'd like to be nicer, actually.

The real question, as I see it, is whether or not it's okay for men to have traditionally "feminine" characteristics-that is, if you consider lower aggression and having emotions "feminine". I tend to disagree. I don't do a whole lot of smashing people's faces in literally in drunken bar brawls _or_ metaphorically by, say, channeling my man-rage into climbing the corporate ladder and laying off as many weaker men as I can, so I can someday retire at 45 with a luxury yacht full of coke and Vietnamese prostitutes that Halliburton paid for.

I think a lot of introverted men are lacking in traditional machismo, and I really, really, hope that that's not the real problem. I'd like to believe there are some women (and I know there are) who like having relationships with a "partner" who is just that-rather than a "big, strong, provider" who will "look after them" and shoot cave bears, because if that's the case, feminism is basically irrelevent. How is looking for a man to "make" you happy any better than a man looking for a woman to "make" him happy (this is not directed at anyone here)?

The characteristics that are "okay" for a man to have are worth discussing. Frankly, the grunty, jaw-clenching, shoot first/ask questions later chest-puffing "I don't have to think-I'm a man! Now get back in the kitchen and fix me some pie!" _bullsh*te_ that you're supposed to do in order to "man up" has been getting the human race _screwed_ in a very uncomfortable place for thousands of years. I think you can be nice without being a "nice guy" (if "nice guy" means pushover). You don't have to be a total @$$hole in order to not be a "nice guy" who doesn't respect himself, because there are different ways for a guy to respect himself. I'd like to think it's okay for some people to be mental introverts rather than physical extroverts without being clingy and stuff. There's nothing that wrong with being a beta...or even gamma or delta...male. Maybe I'm wrong. This probably makes me come across as an @$$hole myself. I can't call myself that sensitive anyway-I don't even have a ponytail.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Superman23 said:


> There's nothing wrong with treating a woman with respect. What's wrong is treating her like she's better than you. You have to get her to think YOU are the prize


Why does anybody have to be a "prize"? Why can't it be about two people liking each other and building on that? Why does it have to be a ****ing game?


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## Snickersnack (Jun 21, 2008)

PGVan said:


> Superman23 said:
> 
> 
> > There's nothing wrong with treating a woman with respect. What's wrong is treating her like she's better than you. You have to get her to think YOU are the prize
> ...


:ditto


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## B-Dog (Dec 19, 2003)

PGVan said:


> Why does anybody have to be a "prize"? Why can't it be about two people liking each other and building on that? Why does it have to be a @#%$ game?


Winner winner, chicken dinner.


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## Superman23 (Jul 6, 2008)

Women constantly test men. They want to see how you react in different situations. Are you the real deal or just faking to get her to like you? Most women have been hurt so much its hard for them to trust anybody. Thats why there is the dating game, you have to prove yourself. Women created it, men just have to learn how to play it lol

You can choose not to play it, I tried that before. It doesnt work though because everybody else keeps playing


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Snickersnack said:


> I like the point that ardrum (I agree with most of what he's been saying) made earlier about "nice guy" just being a euphemism for being overly eager to please. I _hope_that's the way most women interpret it, rather than having it mean literally "nice". I think I'm nice. I like being nice. I like being sensitive. I like not spending Friday nights pounding back Jello shots at topless nightclubs. I _like_ the basic guy I am, other than being horribly insecure. I'd like to be nicer, actually.
> 
> The real question, as I see it, is whether or not it's okay for men to have traditionally "feminine" characteristics-that is, if you consider lower aggression and having emotions "feminine". I tend to disagree. I don't do a whole lot of smashing people's faces in literally in drunken bar brawls _or_ metaphorically by, say, channeling my man-rage into climbing the corporate ladder and laying off as many weaker men as I can, so I can someday retire at 45 with a luxury yacht full of coke and Vietnamese prostitutes that Halliburton paid for.
> 
> ...


Cool thoughts, Snickersnack.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

> The main reason women go with nice guys (wusses) for awhile is because they're seeking attention. They dont really like the nice guy, they want him to put her on a pedestal to make her feel better about herself. Once she feels good again she leaves him. She may also be with him because of money
> 
> There's nothing wrong with treating a woman with respect. What's wrong is treating her like she's better than you. You have to get her to think YOU are the prize
> 
> Once you get to that point then you stop being clingy and desperate acting and she actually chases you


Here's what I know: "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword."

I'd do my best to get out of that whole "cat-and-mouse" chasing after/being chased business. It just ends up that you always end up getting rolled, even if it takes a while for this to happen.

And, likewise, your view that women only like nice guys because they want attention -it fits in with that whole "cat-and-mouse" chasing.

Whilst I won't pretend that people are above this, a person's only real chance to be happy is to see past this -not be cynical, even whilst being watchful- and just do their best to not be this way or think in this way themselves.

Like attracts like. -If you think in the right way bout things and don't go out trying to "get" people (but instead be watchful of this tendency to be impatient or clingy or greedy, etc... which is important because all of us have this weakness) then you won't get played.

Only players get played. -That's something I learnt the first time I (felt I) was rolled by someone.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Superman23 said:


> Women constantly test men. They want to see how you react in different situations. Are you the real deal or just faking to get her to like you? Most women have been hurt so much its hard for them to trust anybody. Thats why there is the dating game, you have to prove yourself. Women created it, men just have to learn how to play it lol
> 
> You can choose not to play it, I tried that before. It doesnt work though because everybody else keeps playing


Do you not think some guys get hurt? Do you not think that some guys have a hard time trusting anybody?

I don't believe in "the game". It's something created by young people who are out there trying to get laid, not find real relationships. My problem is that seemingly so many women enjoy "playing the game" as teenagers and young adults, and they choose guys like the rest of us (who don't have SA) to settle down with later on. I refuse to be settled for. That would mean I am second-rate. I want to be number one (not the "prize", but the first choice for her) because if I'm ever lucky enough to find the woman to spend the rest of my life with, she will be number one to me. Even at 24, I don't think I could be with a woman with a history of casual sex.


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## B-Dog (Dec 19, 2003)

Snickersnack said:


> _@#%$*te_ that you're supposed to do in order to "man up" has been getting the human race _screwed_ in a very uncomfortable place for thousands of years.


What, like in the back of a Volkswagon?


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## Snickersnack (Jun 21, 2008)

RubyTuesday said:


> > The main reason women go with nice guys (wusses) for awhile is because they're seeking attention. They dont really like the nice guy, they want him to put her on a pedestal to make her feel better about herself. Once she feels good again she leaves him. She may also be with him because of money
> >
> > There's nothing wrong with treating a woman with respect. What's wrong is treating her like she's better than you. You have to get her to think YOU are the prize
> >
> ...


Thank you, RubyTuesday. You're very right.

Imagine-relationships actually being mutually _happy_ instead of endless power struggles. I guess it's possible for human beings to actually _like_ the people they date instead of just manipulate them for sex and prestige.

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea if the "how to be a smooth operator" advice just sort of disappeared, unless interchangeable hookups to brag about with your buddies at Hooter's are the goal, in which case, all power to you for promoting another facet of our sick and shallow society. When it comes to dating, quality and quantity are two very different things. I wouldn't know either, but I'd go for choice A. every time, and I don't mean to sound all superior, because I'm not, and I think the vast majority of people would agree with me here.



B-Dog said:


> Snickersnack said:
> 
> 
> > _@#%$*te_ that you're supposed to do in order to "man up" has been getting the human race _screwed_ in a very uncomfortable place for thousands of years.
> ...


That movie wasn't as bad as people always say it is.


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## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Well I read a book by dr. glover a recovered nice guy from his syndrome and says to be honest and accept all flaws, limitations, bright side, and darkside. dont take crap from anyone pretty much common sense. So not a jerk not a "nice guy" but a "integrated" male who is healthy and functioning. Having any premediated expectations when it comes to women in my experience is nothing but frustration and anger and self infliction while feeling trapped. not to whine but what are socially anxious people supposed to do? be nice? no, seek treatment first than try some seduction or change some beliefs about women in general. I know one person with social anxiety issues who had great succes with seduction material by ross jeffries self confidence tapes and the book called the game I think; whatever works for the person if the goal is to get laid or girlfriend, or be happy.


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## Superman23 (Jul 6, 2008)

PGVan said:


> Superman23 said:
> 
> 
> > Women constantly test men. They want to see how you react in different situations. Are you the real deal or just faking to get her to like you? Most women have been hurt so much its hard for them to trust anybody. Thats why there is the dating game, you have to prove yourself. Women created it, men just have to learn how to play it lol
> ...


Im 33 and have been talking to lots of women to get a better understanding. So far I havent met one virgin over the age of 25 and most of them have had many boyfriends and partners

Its sad to say but casual sex is the norm in today's society. I dont believe in that and I agree with you that I want to find a good woman to spend my life with. What Im finding out is that so many women have been hurt its really hard to find them. They're afraid of letting people in. My ex GF for example was physically abused by her ex before me for over 3 years. As a result she doesnt think she will ever be able to trust anybody enough to get in a serious committed relationship and thats why we broke up

As for dudes getting hurt, yep it happens all the time. Im one of them, thats why Im taking a break from dating for awhile


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Snickersnack, great comments.


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## RubyTuesday (Aug 3, 2007)

Snickersnack said:


> RubyTuesday said:
> 
> 
> > > The main reason women go with nice guys (wusses) for awhile is because they're seeking attention. They dont really like the nice guy, they want him to put her on a pedestal to make her feel better about herself. Once she feels good again she leaves him. She may also be with him because of money
> ...


I just wanted to say something more...

Back when I was quite emotionally conflicted and sorting my self out very much.... well I had a pretty confrontational/narrow minded approach to sexuality and the genders.

In one a few words: I was majorly frigid.

And yet, I took a job position working with 6 other men on my lonesome at around age 23.

...it didn't go all so well -even despite my past experiences of getting along well with males. -This was different: I had come to some kind of cross-roads.

Anyhow: to make a long story short... I had a prety confrontational, you know "kill or be killed" kind of attitude (despite that my mind nonetheless rationalised this and believed this view to be completely reasonable!!)

...I was harrassed by a few of them. I ended up being fired from the position ...and it was actually the last full time role that I've had... :con :stu

...nevermind... certain things I learned during that, somewhat painful time, are nonetheless INVALUABLE to me now!

For instance, at the meeting organised to discuss my being fired... my dad, who accompanied me, insisted that I push to get more money ...but I stuck to only asking for what money was owed to me for the actual work I had done. ...I did not ask for "revenge".

...I could have... many people do... And I notice, keenly, how it destroy them.

"If you live by the sword, you die by the sword" ...took me some time before this proverb 'clicked' in my mind. But eventually, it did.

And I did not ask for anything "extra" when they fired me. ...YOu know something: I wasn't all that wonderful my self at the time! ...even despite that I was traumatised and really going through great emotional confusion (after the shock of a guy I liked letting me down).

Well, it clicked to me one moment working there -actually in the midst of being harrassed by one of the really immature male co-workers... and I figured it all out.

Then I saw things differently: and I SAW now how -"those who live by the sword, die by the sword".

...even my "boss" who once handed my money (that I had leant him when he asked for change to get a tram to the mechanics where his car was) had said: "I should be paying you" (clearly making the joke that I was a hoare, working with all these men etc) ...I still noticed, nonetheless, that everytime he'd walk into our lab (I was in a science lab) he would get a call on his mobile from his wife -and all you'd hear on his side of the line would be: "Yes dear. Yes Dear. Yes dear"

...so much for Big Shots.
...They are always just overcompensating.

A true "Big Shot" sees through all the B.S. and doesn't bother buying into it.

"Everyone who makes himself great will be humbled. And everyone who humbles himself will be made great." -Jesus.

...Now I just don't place much weight by such things, because I have an instinct now inside me, that people are usually their own worst enemies.
And I just don't intend on taking part in the 'kill or be killed' mentality... you can't win with that -so what's the point?!

...small pickin's - 's what I say! ...I like 'big pickins'.


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## yellowpaper (Nov 13, 2007)

I've just ended a relationship with a "nice guy" of a year and a half. I personally need someone that can show a preference for me, take my side. Someone who doesn't have to think and edit every action, word that comes out of his mouth so that he won't offend me or anyone else, even people he doesn't know and aren't anywhere near. A lot of the time, I felt like I was the one always making decisions. I felt bad because I couldn't ever tell what he REALLY preferred, what he really wanted. I didn't like being the dominant person all the time.. idk. I also felt bad because I could never be as nice back, and that's what he needed.

but i love him and i miss him. i'm heartbroken.


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## Nihlanth (Sep 1, 2004)

yellowpaper said:


> I've just ended a relationship with a "nice guy" of a year and a half. I personally need someone that can show a preference for me, take my side. Someone who doesn't have to think and edit every action, word that comes out of his mouth so that he won't offend me or anyone else, even people he doesn't know and aren't anywhere near. A lot of the time, I felt like I was the one always making decisions. I felt bad because I couldn't ever tell what he REALLY preferred, what he really wanted. I didn't like being the dominant person all the time.. idk. I also felt bad because I could never be as nice back, and that's what he needed.
> 
> but i love him and i miss him. i'm heartbroken.


Proof that young girls are confusing. :lol


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## Shauna (Jul 29, 2006)

yellowpaper said:


> I've just ended a relationship with a "nice guy" of a year and a half. I personally need someone that can show a preference for me, take my side. Someone who doesn't have to think and edit every action, word that comes out of his mouth so that he won't offend me or anyone else, even people he doesn't know and aren't anywhere near. A lot of the time, I felt like I was the one always making decisions. I felt bad because I couldn't ever tell what he REALLY preferred, what he really wanted. I didn't like being the dominant person all the time.. idk. I also felt bad because I could never be as nice back, and that's what he needed.
> 
> but i love him and i miss him. i'm heartbroken.


I know, its like they want YOU to be the man in the relationship. Thats not me. I like the traditional male/female roles when it comes to relationships. The nice guy i'm sorta talking to now, it just too nice. He doesn't make plans or anything. If we do anything, i have to suggest and bring up stuff. He is the go with the flow type, and very clingy. I need somebody more stern,stable, and manly. He is like a puppy, will do anything i tell him to do. YUCK!!!! Thats good to an certain extent, but my god, i want somebody with a backbone. If i want man like that, h*ll...i'll just date another female..and become a lesbian. I'm a demure female with SA, and i need a man who can make me feel safe and secure.

I think nice guys, go good with b*tchy type females. When you have 2 nice people together..it kinda gets boring...and you're wondering who is the female in the relationship :um

I sorta did something that hurt the nice guy feelings this weekend, and he is still sulking Not my fault though, he knows what he did, and couldn't be man enough and tell me what was going on.


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## Shauna (Jul 29, 2006)

Nihlanth said:


> yellowpaper said:
> 
> 
> > Proof that young girls are confusing. :lol


No, women are confusing no matter what age. Men are even worser. I'm 25 yrs old, and i still don't understand men.


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## jellyfish (Jul 3, 2008)

Urgh. Well I had a long angry rant about this. But long angry rants tend to be very incomprehensible, and nobody wants to read that, so I've replaced it with a medium-length angry rant instead. 

The problem is, most guys who are nice do not call themselves "nice guys", because people who are nice don't think it's out of the ordinary to have manners, morals, and a willingness to listen. Guys who want to manipulate women, however, will do their best to convince you that they are "nice guys" and therefore deserving of some kind of reward. Like our vaginas are a prize for the contest of nice, and they are cheating their way to the jackpot. If you are a guy who is generally nice, don't call yourself a "nice guy", because you are associating yourself with all those creeps, and that just does you a disservice. Just be yourself, and girls can see for themselves whether you have a good heart or not. 

If a girl says you are "too nice", that doesn't actually mean you are too nice and you should start being an *** if you want to get laid. They're just trying to avoid conflict, because that's what women are traditionally raised to do. If they said you were too ugly or stupid or boring or whiny, or that you have a weird mole on your neck the size of Texas, that could make you angry or upset. And, for right or wrong, we're taught that upsetting people is worse than being honest.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

jellyfish said:


> The problem is, most guys who are nice do not call themselves "nice guys", because people who are nice don't think it's out of the ordinary to have manners, morals, and a willingness to listen. Guys who want to manipulate women, however, will do their best to convince you that they are "nice guys" and therefore deserving of some kind of reward. Like our vaginas are a prize for the contest of nice, and they are cheating their way to the jackpot. If you are a guy who is generally nice, don't call yourself a "nice guy", because you are associating yourself with all those creeps, and that just does you a disservice. Just be yourself, and girls can see for themselves whether you have a good heart or not.


Yeah, I think it's unfortunate that the phrase "nice guy" has taken up a life of its own, meaning far more than the literal words. It has a connotation of a submissive, weak, clingy guy.

Guys manipulate women in all sorts of ways (pretending to be "nice" would be one category). Usually the motive seems to be some sort of sexual gratification. I don't personally relate well to this obsession with genitals, but this does seem to be one of the leading motivations for manipulative guys (with sense of control/dominance being another common motivation for manipulating women).



jellyfish said:


> If a girl says you are "too nice", that doesn't actually mean you are too nice and you should start being an *** if you want to get laid. They're just trying to avoid conflict, because that's what women are traditionally raised to do.


I do think it's a euphemistic (is that even a word?) phrase intended to avoid conflict. I think women are less prone to instigate conflict on a biological, as well as social, basis.



jellyfish said:


> If they said you were too ugly or stupid or boring or whiny, or that you have a weird mole on your neck the size of Texas, that could make you angry or upset. And, for right or wrong, we're taught that upsetting people is worse than being honest.


The message didn't get through to my sister, who once told a guy "I am 100% not attracted to you." :lol

He was a jerk though, following her around despite repeated hints that she wasn't interested. He's show up at her job with flowers! He just couldn't quit. It was like the more she rejected him, the more obsessed he became with her.

Eventually, it led to...

"Just give me a chance."
"I'm 100% not attracted to you."

That finally did it. He cried like a baby and then left her alone.

Would he qualify as a nice guy, creepy guy, or both (or neither)?


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

Shauna said:


> I think nice guys, go good with b*tchy type females. When you have 2 nice people together..it kinda gets boring...and you're wondering who is the female in the relationship :um


Shy girls (like you) want guys who are more manly than they are.
Outgoing bad girls want guys who are even more outgoing and bad than they are.

So either way nice guys are screwed.


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## yellowpaper (Nov 13, 2007)

Shauna said:


> yellowpaper said:
> 
> 
> > I've just ended a relationship with a "nice guy" of a year and a half. I personally need someone that can show a preference for me, take my side. Someone who doesn't have to think and edit every action, word that comes out of his mouth so that he won't offend me or anyone else, even people he doesn't know and aren't anywhere near. A lot of the time, I felt like I was the one always making decisions. I felt bad because I couldn't ever tell what he REALLY preferred, what he really wanted. I didn't like being the dominant person all the time.. idk. I also felt bad because I could never be as nice back, and that's what he needed.
> ...


Exaaaaactly! I need a MAN.. but I guess those are limited since everyone wants one. Maybe I'd attract one if i was a real "woman".. but what's that? =(

We used to actually joke about me being the man in the relationship. It wasn't ever really that funny. Which reminds me that he was really super sensitive and couldn't handle my humor.. I couldn't say "omg lol i hate you!" or "omg you're so stupid!!" (highly animated, joking, loving tone) without him getting HIGHLY offended. He took everything too seriously and literally.


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## yellowpaper (Nov 13, 2007)

Nihlanth said:


> yellowpaper said:
> 
> 
> > I've just ended a relationship with a "nice guy" of a year and a half. I personally need someone that can show a preference for me, take my side. Someone who doesn't have to think and edit every action, word that comes out of his mouth so that he won't offend me or anyone else, even people he doesn't know and aren't anywhere near. A lot of the time, I felt like I was the one always making decisions. I felt bad because I couldn't ever tell what he REALLY preferred, what he really wanted. I didn't like being the dominant person all the time.. idk. I also felt bad because I could never be as nice back, and that's what he needed.
> ...


yeah, well i confuse myself =)


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## Nihlanth (Sep 1, 2004)

I think the reason that there are lot of guys that are 'too' nice is because society is much more unforgiving towards men who misbehave than women who misbehave. It depends on the state and city, but a more liberal city would take a woman's word over a mans while a more historically conservative city would take a man's word over a woman's. The men brought up in the latter cities or families tend to be more confident because they feel they can get away with things if they make a mistake.

The social upbringing in the more matriarchal kinds of environments results in many adolescent young men being conditioned to be much more cautious towards how they treat women than the ones raised in a patriarchal environment (usually).


If this were a strictly patriarchal society, I'm sure that you would definately see more 'manly' men. But I bet you would hate it because many of them would be too controlling for you.

Im not a sociologist or anthropoligist so I have no hard data or evidence. Merely making an educated guess based off of years of observations.


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## Snickersnack (Jun 21, 2008)

Well...this is all very disappointing, to say the least. I just don't have the drive to dominate or "drive" a relationship-I'm very "go with the flow" (at least I'm assuming I would be). So I guess that's it, then. While I agree with everyone on things like clinginess and submissiveness (which are unnattractive qualites regardless of gender) I had kind of assumed that, you know, the "male" in the relationship is the one with the one with the penis, and the "female" has the vagina, but apparently it's more complicated than that. That sucks. *

*I'm not sure if I'm being sarcastic or not, here. It's difficult, though, when you don't want to change yourself, not because you're afraid to but because you're starting to like the way you do things and finally starting you realize you aren't such a pathetic guy after all. Most of us do want to be loved, though, so it's not like I can just give up on it.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

yellowpaper said:


> Maybe I'd attract one if i was a real "woman".. but what's that? =(


Good question.

Women have a reason for liking men beyond the physical: for the feeling of being safe and secure. Men who give this feeling are the real men.

But what is a "real woman"? What would make a woman desirable to men beyond the physical?

This comes back to a question I once asked on this forum:

Why do men want women?
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=69326


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

I'm so confused. I read most of this thread, seems a bit over analytical. I feel like I'm some weird hybrid in this nice guy/bad guy label thingie. PM me when you get the formula down, for now I'll just be myself. 

Although it sounds like too much work, I don't think most girls are worth that much work. Some are, but they are usually taken where I live. They date creampuff guys though!


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

Prodigal Son said:


> I'm so confused. I read most of this thread, seems a bit over analytical. I feel like I'm some weird hybrid in this nice guy/bad guy label thingie. PM me when you get the formula down, for now I'll just be myself.
> 
> Although it sounds like too much work, I don't think most girls are worth that much work. Some are, but they are usually taken where I live. They date creampuff guys though!


I'm reminded of that YouTube video "Impossible is the Opposite of Possible"... Paraphrasing...

"Just be yourself...unless if being yourself means that you're a loser...in which case watching this video has been a complete waste of time." :lol


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## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

ardrum said:


> I'm reminded of that YouTube video "Impossible is the Opposite of Possible"... Paraphrasing...
> 
> "Just be yourself...unless if being yourself means that you're a loser...in which case watching this video has been a complete waste of time." :lol


Hah. That rings true. If "you" are a "loser" (by society's so-called standards and gender role expectations), then the advice "just be yourself" seems pretty useless.


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## Prodigal Son (Dec 11, 2005)

Seems self defeating.

It probably isn't going to work so well ("being yourself") if you label and think of yourself as a loser. That goes for a lot of things though. I don't even think you can be yourself 24-7 but you can react naturally most of the time in social situations and be fine if you have positive self perception.


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## ardrum (May 13, 2007)

It can't be avoided that some people will think you're a loser no matter what. Some people's natural selves would get more of a "he/she's a loser" response than others, but it can't be totally avoided.

Trying to please everyone is futile. That's probably why the "just be yourself" statement is popular. If you're allowing yourself to do and say what you most identify with, then at least you don't have that to stress over. Pretending can be really stressful when it feels out-of-step to your sincere beliefs/values.


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

I can't get into these kinds of threads anymore. They just confuse me.


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