# Lyrica/Pregabaline blocking all effects of Dextroamphetamine/Methylphenidate



## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

What's happening and/or what is causing this?

Since about a week already, I noticed my Dextroamphetamine didn't work anymore. Now I've taken more Dexamph than I'm allowed to to try it out and it doesn't seem to matter, the same with MPH, Lyrica blocks every effect they would have had.

I was hoping this would be a good combination but no, another promising combination bites the dust :bah


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## TheoBobTing (Jul 8, 2010)

Well, I guess it would make sense in theory that an anticonvulsant might lessen a stimulant's effects.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

TheoBobTing said:


> Well, I guess it would make sense in theory that an anticonvulsant might lessen a stimulant's effects.


Idd. But it isn't just lessening, it's killing it all even when I take high dosages.


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## TheoBobTing (Jul 8, 2010)

Could experiment with lower doses of pregabalin?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

I'm on it for nerve pain (or better yet: damaged nerves after surgeries) so I need to be on the highest dosage or I get less pain relief and it isn't much to begin with :blank

I know it reduces Substance P, Glutamate and Noradrenaline. But I didn't expect it to just flat out block the effects of stimulants. I've also tried both Dexamp and MPH in higher dosages (around 100 mg for both) and the same story.

Lyrica seems to function as a bèta blocker as well lol.

No other people with experience with both Lyrica and a stimulant?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Pregabalin: its pharmacology and use in pain management.
Gajraj NM.
Source
Texas Anodyne Research Institute and Sherman Pain Care, Texas, USA. [email protected]
Erratum in
Anesth Analg.2008 May;106(5):1584.
Abstract
Pregabalin is a new synthetic molecule and a structural derivative of the inhibitory neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid. It is an alpha2-delta (alpha2-delta) ligand that has analgesic, anticonvulsant, anxiolytic, and sleep-modulating activities. Pregabalin binds potently to the alpha2-delta subunit of calcium channels, resulting in a reduction in the release of several neurotransmitters, including glutamate, noradrenaline, serotonin, dopamine, and substance P. In this review, I will discuss the pharmacology of pregabalin and available efficacy studies in pain management. This review will focus on the advances in pregabalin pharmacology since my previous review in 2005.

*It reduces everything we take depression medication for... Absolutely fabulous that doctors apparently aren't aware of this and are prescribing Lyrica alongside depression medication :no :clap*


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Anyone?


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## boostinggtir (May 27, 2011)

Inshallah said:


> Pregabalin: its pharmacology and use in pain management.
> Gajraj NM.
> Source
> Texas Anodyne Research Institute and Sherman Pain Care, Texas, USA. [email protected]
> ...


bad logic. I mean isn't this used for sleep?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

boostinggtir said:


> bad logic. I mean isn't this used for sleep?


For pain and anxiety off label.

How is this is bad logic? Many people taking it for the above conditions have concurrent depression or are on it for depression.


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## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

Inshallah said:


> Anyone?


I wouldn't touch this thread with a 10 footpole.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

to what extent, though, is the medication inhibiting the release of norepinephrine, glutamate, dopamine, substance p, et al.? 

i would think it would have a more profound effect on substance p than on, say, dopamine, given its indications.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

GotAnxiety said:


> I wouldn't touch this thread with a 10 footpole.


LOL

Lack of knowledge or a special reason?


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## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

lol, it was just a joke hehe I felt weird this morning. I think it tolarance your talking about everytime you take dexedrine the experience may never be the same.

Altho I've never taken the drugs together so I'm probably wrong like always lol ;p


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

basuraeuropea said:


> to what extent, though, is the medication inhibiting the release of norepinephrine, glutamate, dopamine, substance p, et al.?
> 
> i would think it would have a more profound effect on substance p than on, say, dopamine, given its indications.


Close to the full extent I'd say :b I didn't expect it to do so neither and was looking forward to the combination. I'm still taking the stimulants but they aren't doing anything :mum


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

GotAnxiety said:


> lol, it was just a joke hehe I felt weird this morning. I think it tolarance your talking about everytime you take dexedrine the experience may never be the same.
> 
> Altho I've never taken the drugs together so I'm probably wrong like always lol ;p


I think you are wrong here yes 

I wasn't tolerant the day before I started the Lyrica, and then all of a sudden I was??? No


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## Robert Paulson (Apr 11, 2012)

Were you taking the dex and MPH together before you added the Lyrica? Even if you were, try using only one or the other with the Lyrica. IDK what else you can try.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> Close to the full extent I'd say :b I didn't expect it to do so neither and was looking forward to the combination. I'm still taking the stimulants but they aren't doing anything :mum


i don't think that lyrica inhibits the release of the aforementioned neurotransmitters to the degree you believe it does. i've taken and am taking lyrica and it just doesn't feel as though close to the full extent of dopamine release is inhibited, nor noradrenaline for that matter.

i'm not sure, though, about glutamate or substance p. i'm also not sure how much it is affecting hormonal homeostasis.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

I suppose Lamictal is an alternative to it as it only significantly inhibits glutamate and aspartate and leaves monoamines alone, helps nerve pain like other anticonvulsants. Otherwise idk.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Robert Paulson said:


> Were you taking the dex and MPH together before you added the Lyrica? Even if you were, try using only one or the other with the Lyrica. IDK what else you can try.


No, I haven't tried both stimulants together (and probably won't neither since NDRI's would just block out the NDR of the Dextroamphetamine), I've tried both separately and both also at twice my prescribed dosage.

Pregabalin appears to be not only a sort of bèta-blocker, but an entire neurotransmitter blocker lol.

It's not only the Noradrenaline that's clearly reduced or gone, the Dopamine effect from all stimulants is also gone. The Serotonin from the Escitalopram I'm also on also seems to have been chemically offed although that's more difficult to conclude since I've never really felt it to begin with.

But DA and NA: definitely reduced a lot (if not close to or entirely).


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

basuraeuropea said:


> i don't think that lyrica inhibits the release of the aforementioned neurotransmitters to the degree you believe it does. i've taken and am taking lyrica and it just doesn't feel as though close to the full extent of dopamine release is inhibited, nor noradrenaline for that matter.
> 
> i'm not sure, though, about glutamate or substance p. i'm also not sure how much it is affecting hormonal homeostasis.


When you took it, you were taking only Pregabalin right?

When taken by itself, apart from the Noradrenaline reduction which us wound up anxious people immediately notice (and which combined with the Glutamate reduction is the reason why it's so good for anxiety disorders), you indeed can't notice it.

Have you ever taken it combined with a stimulant, or a heavy serotonergic?

I recall (but I may be wrong) that you've taken it on it's own and that you got seriously depressed from the Lyrica, right?

If Pregabalin reduces SERT, NA and DA, there's your reason for you and others getting depressed on Lyrica. On pain forums you'll read plenty of those stories, non-depressed people who start taking it for nerve pain who after a while mention feeling down and becoming depressed.

It's a very paradoxical drug because it also has AD properties at the same time, although probably only in high dosages of 600 mg or more per day.


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> When you took it, you were taking only Pregabalin right?
> 
> When taken by itself, apart from the Noradrenaline reduction which us wound up anxious people immediately notice (and which combined with the Glutamate reduction is the reason why it's so good for anxiety disorders), you indeed can't notice it.
> 
> ...


no, i've never taken it alone. i've taken it along with clonazepam, although right now i'm taking it along with clonazepam and serotonergics (fluvoxamine and a very small dose of mirtazapine - 7.5mg/day).

you're right, though, in that when i was taking pregabalin with clonazepam i became extremely depressed although my anxiety was completely eliminated. when combined with serotonergics my mood is stabilised and my anxiety is eliminated.

all of that said, i think that it inhibits the release of glutamate, substance p, and perhaps noradrenaline much more than serotonin and dopamine. the glutamatergic properties of the drug alone may be a major causative factor of the depression that some experience.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

jim_morrison said:


> I suppose Lamictal is an alternative to it as it only significantly inhibits glutamate and aspartate and leaves monoamines alone, helps nerve pain like other anticonvulsants. Otherwise idk.


This I'll be looking into, is it officially used for nerve pain though?

Although, who am I kidding, should it not be officially indicated for nerve pain, I don't have to go to the pain clinic for a separate prescription and I'll start it up with my psychiatrist with much less hassle :teeth

How effective is it for nerve pain? "A bit effective" is ok since that is about what I get out of Lyrica as well. Nerve pain is a quasi mission impossible ***** to treat.

I've asked for a nerve block or two for so many times, just to get it over with instead of having to add yet other ineffective meds but yeah :|


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> This I'll be looking into, is it officially used for nerve pain though?
> 
> Although, who am I kidding, should it not be officially indicated for nerve pain, I don't have to go to the pain clinic for a separate prescription and I'll start it up with my psychiatrist with much less hassle :teeth
> 
> ...


http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD006044/lamotrigine-an-antiepileptic-drug-for-acute-and-chronic-pain



> Based on current evidence, lamotrigine is unlikely to help with neuropathic pain. Other antiepileptic drugs such as pregabalin, gabapentin, and carbamazepine have been shown to be of value in neuropathic pain.


of course you'll find studies that state the contrary, although i think you'll likely find pregabalin more helpful than lamotrigine in that regard.


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## enfield (Sep 4, 2010)

in the regard of me liking basuraeuropea, there could be no truer liking between one mentally ill person and another mentally ill person (no counterexamples to this proclamation could be found! none). okay i'm not really going to spam the med section, that would be immature. but this discussion is fascinating, it motivates me to learn all these meds and learn them well, to study pharmacology, and to be a pharmacist (not the last thing, i couldn't be trusted to give directives by the books). but i could be trusted to like basuraeuropea (to the fullest extent of my young and convoluted mind).


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

basuraeuropea said:


> no, i've never taken it alone. i've taken it along with clonazepam, although right now i'm taking it along with clonazepam and serotonergics (fluvoxamine and a very small dose of mirtazapine - 7.5mg/day).
> 
> you're right, though, in that when i was taking pregabalin with clonazepam i became extremely depressed although my anxiety was completely eliminated. when combined with serotonergics my mood is stabilised and my anxiety is eliminated.
> 
> all of that said, i think that it inhibits the release of glutamate, substance p, and perhaps noradrenaline much more than serotonin and dopamine. the glutamatergic properties of the drug alone may be a major causative factor of the depression that some experience.


Personally I think the reduction in Glutamate is what is making it into an AD for many people, so I'm going to disagree with you here :b

(too much) Glutamate is linked to depression (or seen as a potentially causative factor) more and more. There's even anti-Glutamate AD's in the pipeline.

We need measurements to know how much each neurotransmitter is reduced, because now we're just guessing based on our own experiences and I generally hate not knowing for certain ffs! :teeth


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

basuraeuropea said:


> http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD006044/lamotrigine-an-antiepileptic-drug-for-acute-and-chronic-pain
> 
> of course you'll find studies that state the contrary, although i think you'll likely find pregabalin more helpful than lamotrigine in that regard.


I guess it's first line treatment for a reason.

I wish (permanent) nerve blocks were first line though :blank


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

enfield said:


> in the regard of me liking basuraeuropea, there could be no truer liking between one mentally ill person and another mentally ill person (no counterexamples to this proclamation could be found! none). okay i'm not really going to spam the med section, that would be immature. but this discussion is fascinating, it motivates me to learn all these meds and learn them well, to study pharmacology, and to be a pharmacist (not the last thing, i couldn't be trusted to give directives by the books). but i could be trusted to like basuraeuropea (to the fullest extent of my young and convoluted mind).


I would gladly be the Man of Honor at your marriage with basura.


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## enfield (Sep 4, 2010)

ffs indeed. basuraeuropea, will you like me already or not (and not my post, _me)_.



Inshallah said:


> I would gladly be the Man of Honor at your marriage with basura.


aww. you are too kind <3

whoever officiating our union (please anyone speak up if you would be willing to officiate. don't be shy like me!) will be reading the below, if enfield has any say in it (which he does! he just has to hope basuraeuropea agrees).



> Dearly beloved, we are gathered here upon this day, to bear witness to Enfield and Basuraeruopea, as they bind themselves together in marriage, becoming one, from this day endeavoring to live their lives as one. If any person can show just cause why these two should not be joined, let them speak now, or forever hold their peace.
> 
> The institution of marriage is as old as _**** sapiens_. Donald Brown lists it among the human universals, the parts of culture which are found in almost every tribe that has been studied by anthropologists, alongside such other universals as dancing, storytelling, jealousy, or language. Though we give it a single name, marriage takes many forms.
> 
> ...


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> Personally I think the reduction in Glutamate is what is making it into an AD for many people, so I'm going to disagree with you here :b
> 
> (too much) Glutamate is linked to depression (or seen as a potentially causative factor) more and more. There's even anti-Glutamate AD's in the pipeline.
> 
> We need measurements to know how much each neurotransmitter is reduced, because now we're just guessing based on our own experiences and I generally hate not knowing for certain ffs! :teeth


yeah, there are anti-glutamatergic drugs in the pipeline - i think i linked you to some research compounds in the works in one of your own threads a few days to a week ago.

that said, glutamate is an excitatory neurotransmitter and i really don't understand how it's implicated (at high extracellular levels) in producing anxiogenic symptomatology as well as depressive states and apparently often concurrently. i mean, i know the two are so tightly interwoven and run along one another in comorbidity, but i need some explanations!


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

enfield said:


> ffs indeed. basuraeuropea, will like me already or not (and not my post, _me)_.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

He does enfield, he does. He's PM'ed me more times than I can remember about his love for a younger man, which he couldn't act upon because of social pressures.

But it was very obvious from the first few 100 PM's that he really loves you.

Let this be known for the entire SAS community: these two men love each other, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, let these men live the lives they want to live.

Hallelujah!


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> He does enfield, he does. He's PM'ed me more times than I can remember about his love for a younger man, which he couldn't act upon because of social pressures.
> 
> But it was very obvious from the first few 100 PM's that he really loves you.
> 
> ...


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

basuraeuropea said:


> yeah, there are anti-glutamatergic drugs in the pipeline - i think i linked you to some research compounds in the works in one of your own threads a few days to a week ago.
> 
> that said, glutamate is an excitatory neurotransmitter and i really don't understand how it's implicated (at high extracellular levels) in producing anxiogenic symptomatology as well as depressive states. i mean, i know the two are so tightly interwoven and run along one another in comorbidity, but i need some explanations!


The very simplified explanation might lie in: "Glutamate and GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) are the brain's major "workhorse" neurotransmitters. Over half of all brain synapses release glutamate, and 30-40% of all brain synapses release GABA."

Glutamate (and to a lesser extent GABA) is the boss. SERT, DA and NA are only small fish in the pond.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Inshallah said:


> How effective is it for nerve pain? "A bit effective" is ok since that is about what I get out of Lyrica as well. Nerve pain is a quasi mission impossible ***** to treat.


Hard to say as I don't know that much about nerve pain treatments beyond the usual guidelines, and I'm pretty sure bas is correct about pregabalin and gabapentin being more effective overall, but it seems to have enough effect that Stahl lists one of it's uses as neuropathic pain treatment in his prescriber's guide. Not saying he's the holy authority by any means but he seems to be pretty pragmatic in his listings. 
And again as bas said above, you could probably google it and find an equal amount of papers saying it works/doesn't work for nerve pain.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

basuraeuropea said:


> yeah, there are anti-glutamatergic drugs in the pipeline - i think i linked you to some research compounds in the works in one of your own threads a few days to a week ago.
> 
> that said, glutamate is an excitatory neurotransmitter and i really don't understand how it's implicated (at high extracellular levels) in producing anxiogenic symptomatology as well as depressive states and apparently often concurrently. i mean, i know the two are so tightly interwoven and run along one another in comorbidity, but i need some explanations!


If you don't mind a bit of a read this paper explains how lowering glutamate can help depression, it's thought to be due to some link with inflammation.



> _Multiple lines of evidence suggest that inflammation and glutamate dysfunction contribute to the pathophysiology of depression. In this review we provide an overview of how these two systems may interact. Excess levels of inflammatory mediators occur in a subgroup of depressed patients. Studies of acute experimental activation of the immune system with endotoxin and of chronic activation during interferon-α treatment show that inflammation can cause depression. Peripheral inflammation leads to microglial activation which could interfere with excitatory amino acid metabolism leading to inappropriate glutamate receptor activation. Loss of astroglia, a feature of depression, upsets the balance of anti- and pro-inflammatory mediators and further impairs the removal of excitatory amino acids. Microglia activated by excess inflammation, astroglial loss, and inappropriate glutamate receptor activation ultimately disrupt the delicate balance of neuroprotective versus neurotoxic effects in the brain, potentially leading to depression._


http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1590

In regards to more targeted treatments like ketamine (you likely already know this but I'll post it anyway), the research seems to indicate it takes the brakes of a BDNF limiting factor.



> _Drug boosts growth factor to jump-start rapid antidepressant response
> Little-known enzyme pivotal - NIH-funded study in mice
> 
> A study in mice has pinpointed a pivotal new player in triggering the rapid antidepressant response produced by ketamine. By deactivating a little-known enzyme, the drug takes the brakes off rapid synthesis of a key growth factor thought to lift depression, say researchers supported by the National Institutes of Health.
> ...


http://www.nih.gov/news/health/jun2011/nimh-22.htm


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## enfield (Sep 4, 2010)

i am a small fish in basuraeuropea's pond, but a special fish. he liked the way i swam (against the current), which is why he chose me out of all the fishes. there was really no current, it was just a more or less placid pond, but the way i swam so awkwardly made it _look like_ there was a current. i didn't have to swim against anything to stand out, i stood out from the day i was born!


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> The very simplified explanation might lie in: "Glutamate and GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) are the brain's major "workhorse" neurotransmitters. Over half of all brain synapses release glutamate, and 30-40% of all brain synapses release GABA."
> 
> Glutamate (and to a lesser extent GABA) is the boss. SERT, DA and NA are only small fish in the pond.


well, yes, but that doesn't _really_ answer my question at all. and i'm too lazy to look up answers.

as a related aside, it isn't a necessary that gaba levels are decreased when glutamate levels are increased and vice versa, although this is often the case and it's observed often enough upon benzodiazepine cessation and withdrawal - major glutamate rebound. withdrawal aside, though, they aren't always correlated and so i'm confused. jim? inshallah?


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

jim_morrison said:


> If you don't mind a bit of a read this paper explains how lowering glutamate can help depression, it's thought to be due to some link with inflammation.
> 
> http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1590
> 
> ...


well, i mean, i already know of the antidepressant properties of the antiglutamatergics, but what baffles me is that high levels of extracellular glutamate are implicated in producing both somatic anxiogenic and somatic depressive symptoms and often at the same time. baffled.

glutamate seems to act much differently than it's equally plentiful neurotransmitter cousin gaba in the manner described above. not that they should be compared, but i'm comparing anyhow.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

This would be in line with the Deep Brain Stimulation brain region they have found to respond best to stimulation thereof: Brodmann Area 25.

Much simplified again: basically what happens in depressed (and probably also anxious people but don't quote me on this) is that a flood mechanism that should be stopped by a better closed off gate is occurring. 

In depressed people, the gate function in Area 25 is malfunctioning, the gate is opened too much or entirely so to speak with the result that it leaves every negative emotion to flood right through.

This results in Area 25 being overexcited constantly in depressed people.

While in non-depressed healthy people, the gate is closed or more closed at the least, so less of the "negative ****" floods through to where we actually perceive it.

Non-depressed people just have less of life's or people's negative things sift true. They never even notice it and don't start ruminating over it.

Glutamate-caused overexcitation is resemblant imo. 

Glutamate = you remember everything a lot better.

GABA = (as a lot of us know) you don't remember lol

I do think that with the DBS/Area 25 it's negative emotions that'll get blocked (since it's another brain region that's responsible for the positive part). While with Glutamate-GABA, it's both + and - emotions.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

enfield said:


> i am a small fish in basuraeuropea's pond, but a special fish. he liked the way i swam (against the current), which is why he chose me out of all the fishes. there was really no current, it was just a more or less placid pond, but the way i swam so awkwardly made it _look like_ there was a current. i didn't have to swim against anything to stand out, i stood out from the day i was born!


Sounds to me like you two should get married asap. I'm sure many SAS members will attend!


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> Sounds to me like you two should get married asap. I'm sure many SAS members will attend!


i'm being stalked. i need to file a restraining order. for serious.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

basuraeuropea said:


> well, i mean, i already know of the antidepressant properties of the antiglutamatergics, but what baffles me is that high levels of extracellular glutamate are implicated in producing both somatic anxiogenic and somatic depressive symptoms and often at the same time. baffled.
> 
> glutamate seems to act much differently than it's equally plentiful neurotransmitter cousin gaba in the manner described above. not that they should be compared, but i'm comparing anyhow.


I'm not quite certain how it specifically relates to anxiety or atleast depression and anxiety simultaneously. I'd assume that Inshallah's explanation is probably right, too much sensory processing and so on occurring in an anxious patient. It's probably in some ways kind of like the intense world syndrome theory, but not related to autism in this case.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

basuraeuropea said:


> well, yes, but that doesn't _really_ answer my question at all. and i'm too lazy to look up answers.
> 
> as a related aside, it isn't a necessary that gaba levels are decreased when glutamate levels are increased and vice versa, although this is often the case and it's observed often enough upon benzodiazepine cessation and withdrawal - major glutamate rebound. withdrawal aside, though, they aren't always correlated and so i'm confused. jim? inshallah?


Would at the moment anyone be able to directly answer your question? I doubt it. I can only reason that Glutamate, being the number 1 so to speak, has it's effect on basically everything. And that when there is a Glutamate dysregulation, problems are unavoidable due to a cascade that'll involve who knows how many other chemicals.

I wish I could answer your question. But I doubt even Stahl or any active lab scientist studying nothing but this stuff all day could at this point in time and with our still very limited logic.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

basuraeuropea said:


> well, i mean, i already know of the antidepressant properties of the antiglutamatergics, but what baffles me is that high levels of extracellular glutamate are implicated in producing both somatic anxiogenic and somatic depressive symptoms and often at the same time. baffled.
> 
> glutamate seems to act much differently than it's equally plentiful neurotransmitter cousin gaba in the manner described above. not that they should be compared, but i'm comparing anyhow.


Pathological overexcitation of the brain's primary workhorse neurotransmitter is bad all around. I can certainly see it causing depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, etc. all by the same initial mechanism.

In a recent thread I've stated my belief that all psychiatric disorders stem from the same chemical cause, and the Glutamate research I see as a step in that direction.

Both anxiety and depression are not caused by "too little", they are caused by a gradual wearing down process caused by "too much". Psychosis etc. the same. That's been my feeling since a while.


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## enfield (Sep 4, 2010)

basuraeuropea said:


> i'm being stalked. i need to file a restraining order. for serious.














basuraeuropea said:


> well, yes, but that doesn't _really_ answer my question at all. and i'm too lazy to look up answers.
> 
> as a related aside, it isn't a necessary that gaba levels are decreased when glutamate levels are increased and vice versa, although this is often the case and it's observed often enough upon benzodiazepine cessation and withdrawal - major glutamate rebound. withdrawal aside, though, they aren't always correlated and so i'm confused. jim? inshallah?


i will try to find you an answer sometime soon. i wasn't serious about the job (that's clearly beyond my ability) but i am serious about this.

p.s. i will expect remunerations in proportion to the impressiveness of the answer, to be paid in actions of liking someone a lot.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

basuraeuropea said:


> i'm being stalked. i need to file a restraining order. for serious.


Is there a more efficient restraining order than marriage?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

jim_morrison said:


> I'm not quite certain how it specifically relates to anxiety or atleast depression and anxiety simultaneously. I'd assume that Inshallah's explanation is probably right, too much sensory processing and so on occurring in an anxious patient. It's probably in some ways kind of like the intense world syndrome theory, but not related to autism in this case.


Too much of a good thing is a bad thing. It probably comes down to this.

Serotonin: too little of it and all kinds of problems ensue, too much of it and we are at risk of dying of Serotonin syndrome. The exact same chemical that can make you feel careless, can make you feel scared hellishly as well. I've had Serotonin Syndrome that ended up with me being resusciated several times and being close to dying, so I know firsthand that the opposite of careless/apathy is what you'll experience during SS: complete doom would describe it.

GABA: too little of it and we aren't relaxed and may be anxious all the time, too much of it and we won't even wake up, either for a while or permanently.

Glutamate influences probably every of the to us more known neurotransmitters. When it starts over-releasing and flooding the entire brain, a lot can happen I'd assume.


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## limbic5ht2a (Mar 7, 2012)

*Timing*

I take Lyrica 150mg x2 daily with MPH 3 /4 daily. Timing is everything. If i take 20mg MPH first thing, then an hour later take 150mg lyrica, the MPH works fine. But if i take them both together first thing then the MPH is blunted all day long. I have no idea why but Lyrica is very strange..


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Inshallah said:


> Serotonin: too little of it and all kinds of problems ensue, too much of it and we are at risk of dying of Serotonin syndrome. The exact same chemical that can make you feel careless, can make you feel scared hellishly as well. I've had Serotonin Syndrome that ended up with me being resusciated several times and being close to dying, so I know firsthand that the opposite of careless/apathy is what you'll experience during SS: complete doom would describe it.


Which combination gave you SS?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

limbic5ht2a said:


> I take Lyrica 150mg x2 daily with MPH 3 /4 daily. Timing is everything. If i take 20mg MPH first thing, then an hour later take 150mg lyrica, the MPH works fine. But if i take them both together first thing then the MPH is blunted all day long. I have no idea why but Lyrica is very strange..


You now know why, it reduces Noradrenaline, Serotonin (not important for MPH) and Dopamine among other things.

MPH being a NDRI is effectively counteracted and I'm afraid, nullified by Pregabalin.

Maybe with extremely high doses you could overrule the Pregabalin a bit but ...

I can attest that it holds true for the Serotonin reduction just as well. My Escitalopram doesn't work anymore once the Lyrica was build up. And I'm on 600 mg/day so :b


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

jim_morrison said:


> Which combination gave you SS?


A full bottle of Paroxetine 20 mg tabs (60 I think), a full box of Dothiepin (a lesser known tricyclic) pills, also 60 pills or so, and a full bottle of 5-htp capsules, 100 200 mg capsules if I recall correctly. I wanted to deliberately induce SS as you can tell.

When the ambulance arrived at the hospital I was having frantic seizures, throwing my limbs around wildly and less than a minute later I was DOA when I got carted into the ER. My mom drove along in the ambulance so she saw every stage of it. Must have been terribly traumatic for her because she basically saw all vital signs stop and thus saw me die on one of those hospital carters right before her eyes.

Several CPR's later my heart started beating again and I was then kept on among other apparatus, a breathing machine for a few days.

I know all of this from my mom since my lights went out long before that at home while lying in my bed. It goes quick let me tell you. In less than 10-15 mins after ingesting the pills I lost awareness (initiation of seizures I guess?) and obviously, the only thing I myself remember is waking up at the ER several days later, wondering what the hell had happened, where I was etc.

So for everyone wondering what real SS is: it's harsh and if the ambulance got stuck in a trafic jam, I would never have been posting here because I was told it was a matter of minutes.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

A bottle of Dothiepin would probably have given you tricyclic overdose too, which also includes convulsions and is lethal, so maybe you had SS + tricyclic overdose?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

jim_morrison said:


> A bottle of Dothiepin would probably have given you tricyclic overdose too, which also includes convulsions and is lethal, so maybe you had SS + tricyclic overdose?


Very likely yes. I had convulsions rather soon and in increasing intensity from when when we arrived at the hospital, I was apparently tied up entirely to the stretcher to avoid breaking limbs since I was kicking and punching full force and had already hit heavy stationary objects before.

In the few minutes afterwards my heart stopped beating and I also stopped breathing.

So I have the dubious honor of entering the ER room doors clinically dead and entirely tied up on a stretcher. Must have been a sight. Normally, it's the half dead that get carted into there, not the already dead.

It's a shame this happened pre-Youtube or there might have been a video clip of it :b

It's experiences like these that have boosted my sarcasm and dark humor. Having joined the dead for a while tends to do that to a human being 

I've never really gotten an extensive report on it, it basically said: admission for serious suicide attempt, vital signs stopped but succesfully restarted, patient stayed in the recovery sections for x days and was fired on *date*.

They don't tell you the technicalities, probably not even when you ask for them. SS is also not really measurable if I'm not mistaken?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

*Now that we're off topic anyway*

I sincerely hope that people who read my suicide attempt post get a very clear DO NOT ****ING DO IT message out of it.

I've swallowed 300 pills (which is a feat I can tell you that, so you won't manage this many very likely) in a fatal combination and even that didn't work.

Should someone reading this have the thoughts that lead up to stunts like mine:

Get yourself admissioned somewhere. Ambulant help leaves you alone and at risk too often and too much.

Admission people: just like the Nike slogan: Just do it (admission) and don't do what I did because it both failed and it caused permanent trauma for my parents who experienced everything live. Think about how terrible it must be for parents to see their child gradually dying in front of them.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

^ Most of them have Zyprexa injections on hand for when people get really agitated, manic and/or suicidal. They also have other stuff like lorazepam or haldol but dosing them together is more tricky outside of paramedic/ER clinicians hands. If I'm not mistaken some pdocs give out Zyprexa tablets to be taken prn/on an as needed basis when a patient feels a really bad episode of bipolar mania or agitation/suicidality, etc is coming on. Probably a handy thing to have on hand if ones prone to those episodes, could save alot of lives.



> Nevertheless, you should be aware of Zyprexa for symptoms that simply must be controlled _now_. It can decrease anxiety, agitation, even the overall negative feeling called "dysphoria" -- within 20 to 30 minutes. It has a profoundly calming effect in many people. It can stop "racing thoughts" that can be one of the most severe symptoms of bipolar disorder, especially in Bipolar II -- as well as the more obvious symptoms of paranoia or delusions as seen in Bipolar I.


http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/meds/olanzapine.htm


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

jim_morrison said:


> ^ Most of them have Zyprexa injections on hand for when people get really agitated, manic and/or suicidal. They also have other stuff like lorazepam or haldol but dosing them together is more tricky outside of paramedic/ER clinicians hands. If I'm not mistaken some pdocs give out Zyprexa tablets to be taken prn/on an as needed basis when a patient feels a really bad episode of bipolar mania or agitation/suicidality, etc is coming on. Probably a handy thing to have on hand if ones prone to those episodes, could save alot of lives.
> 
> http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/meds/olanzapine.htm


I was out cold so I have no idea what they injected


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## limbic5ht2a (Mar 7, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> You now know why, it reduces Noradrenaline, Serotonin (not important for MPH) and Dopamine among other things.
> 
> MPH being a NDRI is effectively counteracted and I'm afraid, nullified by Pregabalin.
> 
> ...


The funny thing is that the timing is what makes MPH workable or not. I take up to 70mg MPH per day. This works fine as long as I dont take Lyrica before the MPH. 
I usually do 9am - 20mg MPH, 10am - 150mg lyrica. some MPH during the day normally every 1.5hrs.
3pm - 150mg lyrica, 30mg mph.

Perhaps lyrica shifts the whole brain down like a big sea anchor...initially if taken first thing in the morning..


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## basuraeuropea (Jul 25, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> Is there a more efficient restraining order than marriage?


hahaha! true story. and sorry to quote the above after some really serious posts - i don't want to discredit them at all, but i just woke up and i had to respond.

p.s. thanks for the explanation regarding glutamate and anxious/depressive states - it was as good as anything stahl could explain, and i've met with stahl! too bad the man doesn't take questions. i think perhaps he's afraid he won't be able to readily answer them and so he talks about things unrelated for a few minutes before jotting some notes down and shoving you on your way.

your explanation makes sense, though, so i'll take it!


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Inshallah said:


> I was out cold so I have no idea what they injected


After you've overdosed on something who knows what they gave you. 
I was talking about what they seem to use before someone gets to the actual point of doing something rash to help them abort the agitated episode.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

basuraeuropea said:


> hahaha! true story. and sorry to quote the above after some really serious posts - i don't want to discredit them at all, but i just woke up and i had to respond.
> 
> p.s. thanks for the explanation regarding glutamate and anxious/depressive states - it was as good as anything stahl could explain, and i've met with stahl! too bad the man doesn't take questions. i think perhaps he's afraid he won't be able to readily answer them and so he talks about things unrelated for a few minutes before jotting some notes down and shoving you on your way.
> 
> your explanation makes sense, though, so i'll take it!


Now THAT is a major compliment, thanks! Logical thinking, nothing more, nothing less. Reequires some intelligence but guys like yourself, jim, ... could and will come up with lilewise ideas. The only reason I use this forum is because there are some smart guys here who's responses I value. We can help each other here on SAS, if only just a little, it's better than none.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

jim_morrison said:


> After you've overdosed on something who knows what they gave you.
> I was talking about what they seem to use before someone gets to the actual point of doing something rash to help them abort the agitated episode.


Ah ok. But even at that stage, I was completely out. Basically I remember being carried in the ambulance and then the lights went out.


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