# Love-shyness



## VelvetElvis (Apr 29, 2006)

For as long as I can remember, I've been blaming my phsical appearance and other people for my anxiety, until I realized what most of my anxiety boils down to. As far as I can tell, it's something like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_shy. The name is pretty obvious.

Apparently some of the research on it is questionable, but the basic idea seems to hold true. In terms of myself, relationships with women cause _much _ more anxiety than anything else, and compound any anxiety I may have about other things. Unlike many anxiety sufferers, I don't get nervous walking outside, or asking directions, or seeing a therapist. Virtually all of my anxiety is centered around fear of female relationships and the ever-present WWSTOM (or what will She (fill-in-the-blanks) think of me) factor.

I'd only be a little nervous going to a party with a male friend or a female friend whom I'd known for a long time, but I wouldn't try to start a conversation with a girl whom I didn't know. In fact, if I found her in any way attractive I'd probably want to avoid her even if I did know her, but wouldn't out of politeness. It doesn't make sense, but having overwhelming anxiety about just one thing can make your life hell.

Here's another site http://www.love-shy.com/index.php. Take the test-the questions reminded me of the Voigt-Kampf test from the movie _Blade Runner_, but it's interesting. Some of the links are the same ol' dating-advice crap, though.

Still, it might be worth looking into in hopes of having a fulfilling relationship in the future.


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## Misanthropy (Aug 16, 2006)

I've known about this for quite some time, but didn't feel compelled to post about it here other than an off-hand remark.

Personally, I identify a lot with parts of SAD and Avoidant Personality Disorder (AvPD). For a long time I thought that my condition boiled down to one of these two. But in the last 3 or 4 months I've been researching love-shyness, and it seems very applicable in my situation because my symptoms are outwardly exacerbated in the prescense of women.

Like you, I think I'm pretty functional in situations that seem to give a lot of people on these forums anxiety. Shopping, job interviews, and as you mentioned, asking for directions, it's all cake. Sure, I do get more anxious than a lot of people, but it can be controlled. But when you involve girls my age as I mentioned above, oh man, it's all over folks. I try not to even look at them anymore (literally).

If you're interested in researching the topic further, I can offer some advice. First, check out this official Yahoo group:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/lo ... gilmartin/

Second, and most importantly, Dr Gilmartin published a book about his research on the topic many years ago. It's now out of print but you can download it from the Yahoo group. Alternatively, I can send it to you easily if you want. The book is definitely worth reading, although some might find it a tad heavy in places. I didn't mind because I like reading scientific journals anyway, but be aware your mileage may vary. Also, it _can_ get a little 'kooky' in the later chapters, which adds weight to your "questionable" comment . I happen to agree, but the underlying thesis is a good one and definitely not deserving of outright dismissal.

To sum up, don't be surprised if you find yourself nodding, or if it feels like you were profiled exactly for the book if and when you begin reading. It can be scary and discomforting, and it made me a little emotional. I'm actually thinking of seeing a therapist for the first time in my life to discuss this.

Good luck.


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## Ross (Apr 10, 2004)

Could you send it to me please?

My email is [email protected]

Thanks.


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## Misanthropy (Aug 16, 2006)

Ross, I sent the email.

If anyone else wants a copy please PM me with your address so as to avoid possible cluttering of the thread.


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## likewater (Aug 3, 2006)

the book is actually available here:
http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/toc.html

and I'm probably love shy as well. maybe not as bad as some other folks but I still freak out around attractive women .. and damn does it suck


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## Misanthropy (Aug 16, 2006)

I have the PDF version which uses direct scans and includes all the covers etc. It's easier to read and feels more natural IMO.

But either or, really.

As to your comment, I'm forming the opinion that I have a moderate form of love-shyness. There are some things the book describes that seem kind of extreme and don't really apply to me. However, it pays to be wary of self-diagnosis, and although love-shyness is not a recognised disorder as of yet, I'm thinking of talking to a therapist about it.

I'll elaborate on the things I can't identify with after I've had some sleep.


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## Anatomica (May 23, 2005)

I don't know if all of the characteristics of a love shy person applies to me as I've only read parts of Gilmartin's book, but my anxiety definitely worsens significantly around women I find attractive, to the point where I become apprehensive of every minuscule movement I make. The part I find most interesting in his book is the recovery process a love shy person can go through with "practice dates", where the therapist arranges a group of both men and women who then goes through a series of practice dates until both parties recover from their perceived fears of interacting with the opposite sex. The problem with that, and I think he mentioned this in the book, is there are a lot more men who are love shy than women so it would be difficult to arrange such group therapies.


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## VelvetElvis (Apr 29, 2006)

I haven't had a chance to look at any of the material since last night, but I have had the feeling for a while that I need a therapist much more than I need more medication. I'm not even sure meds are that crucial for me, actually, though I'll keep at 'em for now. Therapy is expensive, though, especially if it's for something that most people don't take seriously.


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

VelvetElvis said:


> In terms of myself, relationships with women cause _much _ more anxiety than anything else, and compound any anxiety I may have about other things. Unlike many anxiety sufferers, I don't get nervous walking outside, or asking directions, or seeing a therapist. Virtually all of my anxiety is centered around fear of female relationships and the ever-present WWSTOM (or what will She (fill-in-the-blanks) think of me) factor.


This is where I am at also. I used to be much worse just a few years ago, but now it is all about not being able to have long conversations with girls my age.


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## Squizzy (Dec 21, 2004)

I don't understand why this condition only applies to males??


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## VelvetElvis (Apr 29, 2006)

Squizzy said:


> I don't understand why this condition only applies to males??


I don't think it has to-there is a group for females:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/loveshy_women/

But I think men have more problems with the condition than women sufferers do-which is not to say dating is easier for women, just that they seem less likely to experience negative outcomes of love-shyness, as men are supposedly more assertive when it comes to relationships.

If I may venture my opinion (and feel free to shoot me down for it) I'd say initiating contact is _usually_ easier for women, as that's supposedly the man's job anyway. Actual relationships are, I'm sure, equally difficult. A lot of women are love-shy, but it doesn't get in the way of actual relationships as much, though I would think it could make a relationship more difficult if the man is domineering. But this is all conjecture on my part.


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## Misanthropy (Aug 16, 2006)

From the book:



> Love-shyness can be found among people of all ages and of both
> sexes. However, research evidence indicates that the problem impacts
> far more severely upon males than it does upon females. Women who remain love-shy throughout lengthy periods of their lives usually adapt
> very well and often quite happily to their situations. Spinsters, for example,
> ...





> The biggest and most consequential difference in the way shyness
> impacts upon the two genders has to do with the strong social requirement prescribing that males must assume the assertive role in all manner of social situations. This same norm proscribes males from assuming the passive role. Today most women have the option of being either assertive or passive. And whereas the normally assertive woman has been found by researchers to stand a better chance at happiness and adjustment than the chronically passive one, the occasional display of passivity rarely causes a woman to suffer highly disparaging or punitive reactions from others.
> 
> Hence, shyness in women is very rarely found to be coterminus
> ...


I imagine some women here will have some things to say about this, but the book does go into more detail and is worth reading.

Basically, the author acknowledges that love-shyness can apply to women too, but he chose to focus more on men because the studies indicated a bigger effect on them. Also note that 'shyness' is probably different to having social anxiety so badly you can't function. I don't know.

Don't shoot the messenger! :b


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Guys are supposed to be the initiator. In this particular way, loveshyness (which I not proudly scored a 38 on) is more visible with men.

I read part of it and there is a huge social stigma attached to this for guys - loveshyness as a perceived deficiency in masculinity.


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

I scored a 36, but it would probably be less than that if you actually put me in those situations and scored me in real life.

It looks like I found a book to read this weekend.


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## VelvetElvis (Apr 29, 2006)

Hmm, I scored a 44, which seems a little too high now-maybe I should take it again? Someone with as much self-loathing as I have should've gotten lower...


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## silverstein (Jul 9, 2006)

Ahh. this is quite an informative thread and the links are very interesting (although the test won't load for me). While I only have about half the "other notable attributes" listed, I do have the 7 criteria that defined the love-shy men in his study. I don't know many people around here, but I do know that one of my friends's boyfriend's friend is also most likely love-shy (a second may be but my friend wasn't 100% certain), and another friend's cousin has never had a GF either (though I think he's had some one-night stands so he's most likely not really love-shy). Those 3 guys and myself are all in our mid-20s, so we're most definitely not alone in this, but most people wouldn't admit the fact openly.


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## Restless Mind (Jul 19, 2006)

Love-shyness is just a fancy term for insecurity.


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## likewater (Aug 3, 2006)

Restless Mind said:


> Love-shyness is just a fancy term for insecurity.


thats pretty cool that you are belittling an anxiety disorder on a support forum for anxiety disorders :con


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## Restless Mind (Jul 19, 2006)

likewater said:


> Restless Mind said:
> 
> 
> > Love-shyness is just a fancy term for insecurity.
> ...


I've noticed that people like to put a label on something for more than what it really is. It's like saying you've got Hypersensitive Stomach Syndrome, when really you just have the flu. It's akin to a hypochondriac always looking for a medical diagnosis.


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## Lonelyguy (Nov 8, 2003)

Wow, I took the test and scored a 20, which is lower than the typical average scores given. I'm not surprised though, talking to any girl I'm attracted to is completely impossible for me because of my severe anxiety. I would say about 80% of my social anxiety is related to the opposite sex. I can function pretty normally in the world except for a few little things that make me uncomfortable, but most of my problems are related to meeting women because I get so shy and nervous around them  My confidence just falls apart and I feel like the most repulsive, disgusting creature on the planet. Years of rejection by my peers made me this way and I'm quickly losing hope of ever having a meaningful relationship with a woman. I don't see how its possible when I can't even make simple conversation with someone I might be interested in.


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## likewater (Aug 3, 2006)

Restless Mind said:


> I've noticed that people like to put a label on something for more than what it really is. It's like saying you've got Hypersensitive Stomach Syndrome, when really you just have the flu. It's akin to a hypochondriac always looking for a medical diagnosis.


yeah man, I understand that and to some degree I agree with you. but this is a problem beyond insecurity. reason being I am not that insecure in myself, I have been in the past but I've gotten over most of it. yet ever since I reached puberty I have been completely unable to have meaningful relationships with women, and worse I can barely even talk to women I find attractive. I'd even say that past experiences have nothing to do with it, I've never been horribly rejected, a couple girls saying no to me sure, but I can shrug them off. do I have SA, yes absolutely, but it doesn't competely describe what I am going through, love-shy applies to me and I think its something that requires further thought/discussion.


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

How do you score a 20? That is answering 1 for every question there was.

And insecurity doesn't really define it. It is more along the lines of not knowing how to interact with women. I am at the stage of my SA where I could probably say 'Hi' to a girl or group of girls if it was in a appropriate situation. But, holding a conversation and figuring out questions to ask and what to talk about is next to impossible for me right now.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

I avoid groups of women like the plague period.
To me, when they are in groups, they are the most destructive.
I could probably say hello to one if she were by herself. Two or more in any setting and it's "See ya!".


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## Lonelyguy (Nov 8, 2003)

Classified said:


> How do you score a 20? That is answering 1 for every question there was.
> 
> And insecurity doesn't really define it. It is more along the lines of not knowing how to interact with women. I am at the stage of my SA where I could probably say 'Hi' to a girl or group of girls if it was in a appropriate situation. But, holding a conversation and figuring out questions to ask and what to talk about is next to impossible for me right now.


I did answer 1 for every question and these were honest answers, I wasn't trying to see how low I could score. All of these questions deal with approaching, calling, or talking to women, things which I simply cannot do. I'll admit I am insecure both in my personality and my looks, but I can still interact fairly normally with men. Put me near women though and I get extremely shy and intimidated. For example, if I'm walking down the aisle in a grocery store and I see an attractive girl ahead, I will walk to another aisle to avoid running into her because I get so nervous I can't even be near her. To say its frustrating is an understatement, I've battled with this problem for so many years and its caused me endless frustration and severe depression. I can't even put into words how devestating this has been for me. Its like dying of thirst because you are too afraid to drink the water. I can't even manage a simple "hi" to a girl I'm interested in because the shyness and fear is so intense.


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

I rarely ever see girls out alone. Maybe at the grocery store, but I still think that they are in a relationship or their bf is getting something in the next isle. And then if I asked her something, she would think that the only reason I am talking to her is to get into a relationship or just sex. Then she would instantly judge me (even though there isn't much wrong with me).

As for aswering 1's, if you looked at my real life score, it would be 20 I bet. I have never started a conversation with a girl randomly. In my entire life (except for work), I have spent 90 minutes with a girl my age in a one-on-one conversation.

I think I will start reading the first chapter now.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

> I avoid groups of women like the plague period.
> To me, when they are in groups, they are the most destructive.


Yep. You put people in groups and they just become vicious pack animals. I was reminded of this once again just yesterday. The problem is, I'm *always* alone so if I come across a pack of strange humans, they like to hurl insults at me.


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## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

Zephyr said:


> > I avoid groups of women like the plague period.
> > To me, when they are in groups, they are the most destructive.
> 
> 
> Yep. You put people in groups and they just become vicious pack animals. I was reminded of this once again just yesterday. The problem is, I'm *always* alone so if I come across a pack of strange humans, they like to hurl insults at me.


Oh god, me too.


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## C3P0 (Apr 10, 2006)

Lonelyguy said:


> Classified said:
> 
> 
> > Put me near women though and I get extremely shy and intimidated. For example, if I'm walking down the aisle in a grocery store and I see an attractive girl ahead, I will walk to another aisle to avoid running into her because I get so nervous I can't even be near her. To say its frustrating is an understatement, I've battled with this problem for so many years and its caused me endless frustration and severe depression. I can't even put into words how devestating this has been for me. Its like dying of thirst because you are too afraid to drink the water. I can't even manage a simple "hi" to a girl I'm interested in because the shyness and fear is so intense.


I understand exactly how that is. It could dampen an otherwise super great vacation. I went to Italy this year with my parents, and I can tell you I understand basic Italian enough to say 'hi' to someone, and knew there were some really hot babes there that could speak a bit of accented English.

I didn't speak to any girl in Italy. Some really nice ones even fell through the cracks, I could barely even look at them. Just stood around my parents.

Although it was a lovely trip, with scenery and stuff like that - not talking to any girl I wanted to talk to had a real dampening type of effect. Even some cherished contact with a hotel clerk saying 'good morning' in German language in Zurich really felt good.

It was a great vacation - but if I was able to make eye contact, smile, or say 'hi' to just one girl during that three week vacation - it would have been really nice.


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## C3P0 (Apr 10, 2006)

Classified said:


> I rarely ever see girls out alone. Maybe at the grocery store, but I still think that they are in a relationship or their bf is getting something in the next isle. And then if I asked her something, she would think that the only reason I am talking to her is to get into a relationship or just sex. Then she would instantly judge me (even though there isn't much wrong with me).


I know exactly how that feels - it's like, you are just another guy coming up to her and you get this icy feeling.

It's like it doesn't matter what you say, the desperation for sex or relationship can just be coming out of us in vibes and right through our eyes and way we conduct ourselves, much stronger than anything we might say.


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## Tom (Nov 11, 2003)

This has been my problem all along! Love-shyness. I can't believe that this one word describes all of what I feel and go through. I thought that I was absolutely going nuts for several reasons, but it all boils down to love-shyness. It is love-shyness that has been affecting other aspects of my life and making me sad as well mad. As someone else in here mentioned, "It's like dying of thirst, while you are too afraid to drink the water in front of you!" so true, so true. I think I need to read that book. I have looked at it a little already, but I don't know if I will have the time.


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## Skroderider (Oct 4, 2006)

I read this book a week ago. It indeed was discomforting; about 95% of the descriptions matched me perfectly. I didn't gave it much thought, though, as I missed the crucial element of love-shyness -- actual anxiety in dealing with opposite sex  (though I used to have it once).

Actually I wouldn't really recommend this book. Reading the descriptions of older (40+ years old) love-shy men is downright painful. They are haunting images of how we the younger SAers might end up in the future. Doesn't seems like a healthy reading. And the actual advice are scarce. Dr. Gilmartin suggests that "practice dates" are pretty much the only effective treatment for love-shyness. Maybe they are, but I don't believe it would be possible to organize anything of the sort here in the middle of nowhere, er, middle of Russia.

Oh, and I don't see why love-shyness should be treated as a separate disorder. It looks like just a specific form of APD.


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Skroderider said:
 

> Reading the descriptions of older (40+ years old) love-shy men is downright painful. They are haunting images of how we the younger SAers might end up in the future.


And you're only 18! Imagine those of us who have just entered our 30s! :fall


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## Quinzio (Aug 11, 2005)

Hello millenium, how are you ? I guess you remember me. 
I've been away from this board as I find it quite depressing and non-helping. 

Anyway, I downloaded the Gilmartins book a week ago and I find it interesting so I thought to return here and made a search about it. 

Yes, practice dating would be a good solution, but it is nearly impossible to realize. A lot of false-shy men would be flooding the dating therapy just to know more women, and even if really shy men were involved there would be a big imbalance in the men-women ratio. 

I fit perfectly in the description of a love shy men. I think that my real problem with depression and shyness really began when in the 14-18 year range everyone was beginning to date and/or make women acquaintances. 
That made me feel very isolated and I began to withdraw from any social activity. 
I mean, I have always been shy even around males, but when the pressure to deal with women became huge I sort of have a deepening. 

I find really unnatural to make the first move. 
Most men find natural and easy to approach a woman, call her, make chit-chat, smile and laugh around. All I can do around women is to have a serious attitude and becaming tense and quiet. 
Any thought ?


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## Matt J (Oct 19, 2006)

Quinzio said:


> Hello millenium, how are you ? I guess you remember me.
> I've been away from this board as I find it quite depressing and non-helping.
> 
> Anyway, I downloaded the Gilmartins book a week ago and I find it interesting so I thought to return here and made a search about it.
> ...


Im exactly the same, I get all serious and I cant really be my casual, happy go lucky self....Where the same age as well..pity us poor 30 somethings lol.

Your not alone.


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## Quinzio (Aug 11, 2005)

Hello Matt, my fellow from Australia. 
We're not alone yes. 
If one day you would like to make a trip to Italy you'll be my guest.

We are in our 30, like Millennium as well, and we are still struggling to find a girl. 
Out there it seems that it's the most easy thing of the world to find a women. 
People walk, eat, works, drinks, swims, and find a girl.
Can you imagine that for the majority of people finding a girl is as easy as learning to walk or swim ?
They look at us and say: "30 years old and still single ? AHAHAHA !!!"

It's meaningfull that Gilmartin's book has been written in 1987 and since then no one else has made research on this field. 
Since 1987 mankind has invented cellphones, internet, sent ships in the space, cured many illness, yet we are still struggling and we are unrecognized.

It's think it's the time we make up a worldwide organization about people who doesn't get involved with any woman.
We have politicians and health organization help us and devote money for research and help.
The older of us has to start. We cannot ask a 16 or 20 years old to have this maturity.

Right now I feel like a piece of garbage.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

I totally understand the being serious part. The difference with me, is that I am a naturally serious person. I don't have a loose side to my personality, which is obviously a huge factor in my total lack of social success, nevermind success with women.


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

PGVan said:


> I totally understand the being serious part. The difference with me, is that I am a naturally serious person. I don't have a loose side to my personality, which is obviously a huge factor in my total lack of social success, nevermind success with women.


Same here. I'm just serious all the time, pretty much.


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## Ventress (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm sorry if this seems like I'm intruding here, but...

Gosh, I wish there was something for the love shyness that women experience. From what I've read of this guy's research, he makes it sound like women never have any anxiety over meeting/dating men. You guys feel so ignored, but what about us shy women! He has completely ignored us and not even done any research at all.

I actually took that test and just pretended that the questions were worded differently for heterosexual females (I'm smart enough for that), and I scored a 39. I'm the same as older shy men; heck, I'm an older shy woman. There's no difference and I just wish this Doc would have understood that.

I realize that men are supposed to initiate contact with females and it's not supposed to be the other way around, but you don't get it. I am terrified of being approached by men! I hate being asked out, called, contacted in any way by a man looking for a date. I hate going on dates with a passion because they cause me so much anxiety, I'd rather have some teeth pulled. It's especially difficult when I'm approached by a guy I'm attracted to. I might as well go jump off a cliff because my nerves go so crazy, I'd be better off dead. I've had some really humiliating experiences around really attractive guys and some horrific dates in the past -- I just can't ever hope to be comfortable with any man. My last relationship was so stressful and anxiety-provoking, I developed a _stress_ syndrome that still bothers me to this day! It was a six-month long nightmare (I kid you not)!

And now, I get a suprise email from probably the most beautiful, sweet, wonderful man in the entire world asking me to go see him in a performance, but can I give him a chance -- NO WAY!!!! Do I want to be able to give him a chance -- more than ANYTHING!!!

The distress is just not limited to the male gender, guys. I ain't getting any younger, either...


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## Misanthropy (Aug 16, 2006)

If you read the book the doctor acknowledges that love-shyness effects people of all demographics, whether you're male or female, homosexual or heterosexual.

The reason he decided to focus on heterosexual men is because he logically perceived them to be the most adversely effected by this condition based on his research.

If you will allow me to quote a passage from the book:



> The biggest and most consequential difference in the way shyness impacts upon the two genders has to do with the strong social requirement prescribing that males must assume the assertive role in all manner of social situations. This same norm proscribes males from assuming the passive role. Today most women have the option of being either assertive or passive. And whereas the normally assertive woman has been found by researchers to stand a better chance at happiness and adjustment than the chronically passive one, the occasional display of passivity rarely causes a woman to suffer highly disparaging or punitive reactions from others.
> 
> Hence, shyness in women is very rarely found to be coterminous with love-shyness. In other words, extremely few shy women are also love-shy. The best available evidence clearly indicates that shy women are just as likely as non-shy women to date, to get married, and to have children.
> 
> In short, shyness does not force women to remain against their wills in the "single, never married" category, as it often does with men. In essence, because love-shyness (not shyness itself) is very rare among women, this book and the research it incorporates will focus exclusively upon men.


Basically, the author acknowledges that love-shyness can apply to women too, but he chose to focus more on men because the studies indicated a bigger effect on them. They were more at risk of being vulnerable to all manner of pathologies due to this phenomenon. It has a lot to do with the perceived gender roles in our society.

Nonetheless, by posting this I in no way intend to belittle your situation as a woman who identifies with this 'disorder'. You very rightly point out that love-shyness is applicable to all genders. I don't think anyone disagrees with that, nor are are they ignorant of just how painful it can be for women such as yourself too.

I'm just trying to point out the 'method behind the madness'.


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## deist78 (Nov 12, 2003)

I scored a 28 which is obviously very low. but i think even if i did meet a girl, would be too afraid to even kiss her.


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## Lifetimer (May 16, 2004)

Classified said:


> I scored a 36, but it would probably be less than that if you actually put me in those situations and scored me in real life


With my inepitude and difficulty in initiating conversations with women, I don't know how I got such a high score of 52. :stu

Classified, I feel as you do. In real life, if I were to actually be put in those situations, my score most likely would be much lower.

Lifetimer


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## millenniumman75 (Feb 4, 2005)

Quinzio said:


> Hello millenium, how are you ? I guess you remember me.
> I've been away from this board as I find it quite depressing and non-helping.
> 
> Anyway, I downloaded the Gilmartins book a week ago and I find it interesting so I thought to return here and made a search about it.
> ...


Bon Giorno, Quinzio! Nice to see you on the board again! :banana

I bet part of this problem would go away if we had some friends to hang out with. I don't know this concept of a "wing man", but if there was a small group of guys, that would give enough confidence. :yes.


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## Maseur Shado (Jun 7, 2005)

Ventress said:


> Gosh, I wish there was something for the love shyness that women experience. From what I've read of this guy's research, he makes it sound like women never have any anxiety over meeting/dating men. You guys feel so ignored, but what about us shy women! He has completely ignored us and not even done any research at all.


Thank you! And here I thought that all I had to do was go outside.

I read the quoted parts of this particular author's criteria for why he wrote this book to focus more on men. And I do understand his reasoning...but I also think that like many men, he suffers from this peculiar delusion that there are very, very few love-shy women. He especially does not seem to grasp why most older women who never married learn how to deal with that situation. He automatically assumes that it's simply because they chose to live that way. For some, it's a choice they made because they did not want to get married or date. But for others, it's a default choice. Put it plainly, the reason why you decide to remain single and "learn to live with it" is because you aren't given any other alternative. And you have to learn to "deal with it" if you want to have any kind of life where you aren't constantly driving yourself crazy with wanting to be with someone. So you push the urge down as far as it can go, until you block it off enough so you can focus your mental energies on other aspects of your life.

But it doesn't mean that you're happy with having to do this. It's called "settling".

There, hopefully that points out the female method of madness. (In regards to this particular dilemmia, anyway).


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## el33 (Sep 18, 2006)

Women do have it easier than men, and it all comes down to the fact that the man has to initiate way more often than not.

It is the man's lot to get accepted or rejected by women.

It is the women's lot to accept/reject men.

Think of it this way: The man is the salesman. The woman is the customer. The man has to make the sales pitch, the woman just needs to decide whether she wants to buy or not. Needless to say, sales is probably one of the worst careers for someone with SA regardless of gender.

Now, if you are a woman who has never been approached by men (or have only been approached by men who you have no interest in), I completely sympathize. But from what I've seen of the women in my life who are around my age - even the shy ones - all of them have boyfriends, or at least have had boyfriends in the past. Maybe the boyfriend isn't their paragon of the ideal man, but they decided that he was at least "good enough" and attractive in some way or another. But more importantly, the man approached her, and all she had to do was choose to accept or reject his advances.

This is actually one reason why I've given up on actively trying to get a girlfriend, at least for the time being. All the girls around me that don't look, weigh, and/or act like Jabba the Hutt are taken. Every. Single. One. Even ones that I could describe as having symptoms of SA. Even some of the ones that do look like Jabba are taken.


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## Tom (Nov 11, 2003)

I agree with you el33 on the 'us men having to be the initiators' part. It sucks. I have found myself in countless situations where there was a well presentable and seemingly available female right in front of me and I did nothing about it! ops Sadly, there will be many more of these to come. I just do not have the power to initiate conversation whatsoever! :afr


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## njodis (Nov 8, 2006)

.


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## Maseur Shado (Jun 7, 2005)

el33 said:


> Think of it this way: The man is the salesman. The woman is the customer. The man has to make the sales pitch, the woman just needs to decide whether she wants to buy or not. Needless to say, sales is probably one of the worst careers for someone with SA regardless of gender.


And you don't think women aren't on sale (so to speak)? Then someone explain to me the absolute bloody necessity for Victoria's Secret in a woman's wardrobe? It's a sin NOT to have lingerie in my underwear drawer, at least given the crap I've heard about it over the years. So, I have to sell my goods in order to get customers. Can you at least say that this whole dating transaction business goes both ways?

And at least you guys aren't expected to wear high heels and flip your hair. Unless you happen to be part of a role reversal community, although that doesn't go on to my knowledge. (But anyone who does know about it, please indulge my curiosity. :b )



el33 said:


> Now, if you are a woman who has never been approached by men (or have only been approached by men who you have no interest in), I completely sympathize. But from what I've seen of the women in my life who are around my age - even the shy ones - all of them have boyfriends, or at least have had boyfriends in the past. Maybe the boyfriend isn't their paragon of the ideal man, but they decided that he was at least "good enough" and attractive in some way or another. But more importantly, the man approached her, and all she had to do was choose to accept or reject his advances.


Again, it's called "settling". The number of girls who have to settle for the scum of the earth is a lot higher than you might imagine. Actually, you probably already know about this. It's usually called "bad boy syndrome." For every one girl who actually is attracted to those arseholes, there's three more of us who aren't attracted to them, but wind up with them because "it's better than being alone".

Would you ever be so desperate for regular sex that you would stay with a girl who beat the crap out of you, or just treated you like crap in general? Most likely not, because it's not expected that guys should settle for that kind of treatment. Girls, on the other hand, are required to do that, unless they want to be looked down upon for not being involved with a guy. Trust me, you learn to take what you can get when you've heard "dike" too many times. (If any of you guys have ever been called "gay" for not having a girlfriend, then you might understand what I'm talking about).

The sad thing is, both sexes have more in common with dating issues than many want to admit. But it's tough to get one side to believe that the other one has the same kind of problems.


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

You make some good points, and in real life, it is hard for both genders. Finding someone who is perfect for you isn't easy, but finding someone who is kind and trustworthy vs. mean and demanding should be easy to weed out. Just go out for a few months before sleeping together, you won't lose the guy who truly likes you. 

But, I still don't think it is exactly the same. If all I had to do was wear high heels to know that my chances of getting a girl to go out with me would go up, I might try them. :lol Actually, I don't like them on either gender. I'm sure I would break something if I tried wearing them. Although, now that I think about it, it would differentiate me from all the other guys that I work with, since we all have pretty much the same haircut, are in good shape, and seem to be the same. But, it wouldn't differentiate me in a good way, and I would freak out with everyone staring at me. :afr 

There are a lot more guys than girls on the on-line dating sites. And I bet girls would get a better response rate if they sent the first e-mail to 10 guys, compared to a guy sending an e-mail to 10 girls. And even if I saw a girl alone in a supermarket or shopping, unless she is wearing a t-shirt that says "I am single", I would assume that she is already in a relationship. But, there are single guys that would approach her if they came across her under the right circumstances. Which is more likely to happen than for a single girl to approach me (or any other guy) when I am (we are) grocery shopping, even if I had an "I am single" t-shirt on.

I guess I would say that it is harder for shy guys to get into relationships, than it is for shy girls. But finding the right relationship and keeping that relationship going would be just as hard for both genders.


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## Maseur Shado (Jun 7, 2005)

Classified said:


> Finding someone who is perfect for you isn't easy, but finding someone who is kind and trustworthy vs. mean and demanding should be easy to weed out. Just go out for a few months before sleeping together, you won't lose the guy who truly likes you.


Ah, you know that exception to every rule concept? Just call me Exception. I hold the world record for waiting to sleep with someone. Five years in one relationship, and it never happened. Where's my medal? :lol



Classified said:


> But, I still don't think it is exactly the same.


It does have parallels. But I'll grant there are definitely differences. You can look upon one advantage in being the shy guy. At least no one expects you to walk around with anything exposed. I don't think we're going to be seeing the crotchless pants for guys anytime soon. :eek



Classified said:


> But, it wouldn't differentiate me in a good way, and I would freak out with everyone staring at me.


Well, to be fair, it does take a certain amount of oomph and pizazz to pull those freakin' heels off. Which is why I would have the same problem you described. Except I'd wind up breaking both ankles. Not only embarrassing, but incapacitating.



Classified said:


> There are a lot more guys than girls on the on-line dating sites. And I bet girls would get a better response rate if they sent the first e-mail to 10 guys, compared to a guy sending an e-mail to 10 girls.


Probably in most cases, provided the girl also sends along pictures of her boobs first. Her face can follow later.


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## el33 (Sep 18, 2006)

> And you don't think women aren't on sale (so to speak)? Then someone explain to me the absolute bloody necessity for Victoria's Secret in a woman's wardrobe? It's a sin NOT to have lingerie in my underwear drawer, at least given the crap I've heard about it over the years. So, I have to sell my goods in order to get customers. Can you at least say that this whole dating transaction business goes both ways?
> 
> And at least you guys aren't expected to wear high heels and flip your hair. Unless you happen to be part of a role reversal community, although that doesn't go on to my knowledge. (But anyone who does know about it, please indulge my curiosity. Razz )


That's a good analogy - women "being on sale". However, I disagree regarding the lengths most women have to go to make themselves a "good sale". Honestly, how often do you see women strutting around in public in lingerie or skimpy clothes? The vast majority of women simply wear normal clothes, and as I said before, very few of them seem to have any problems getting a significant other. You don't have to be a supermodel to get a boyfriend, because *someone* out there will like you, and that someone will more likely than not approach you (and not the other way around). Now if you really are morbidly obese, horribly disfigured, etc. then that's a completely different story, but I'm assuming no one here is like that.

As for the issue of settling, doesn't that apply to men too? We don't all end up with our ideal woman. We have to settle too, and we choose the person who we can love despite her imperfections. Isn't that how most relationships work? Granted we typically don't have to worry about being in a physically abusive relationship, but even in the case of women I'd say something like that is the exception, not the rule.


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## Maseur Shado (Jun 7, 2005)

el33 said:


> very few of them seem to have any problems getting a significant other. You don't have to be a supermodel to get a boyfriend, because *someone* out there will like you, and that someone will more likely than not approach you (and not the other way around). Now if you really are morbidly obese, horribly disfigured, etc. then that's a completely different story, but I'm assuming no one here is like that.


Let's just leave out the fact that some of us (myself, etc.) might be disfigured, etc., because there's nothing to be done for those people other than going off somewhere and dying. :roll (Hey, polite society expects that sort of thing with freaks, right?). And you are right about most of them. But I'll admit that I'm just plain damned frustrated since I'm in the minority. And there aren't any rule books for the love-shy females. The only solution to their problem is learning how to adopt the eye-fluttering "Ooh, daddy, me love you long time!" mentality (AKA, become a *****).

I'd rather have some practical solutions other than that, myself. If it were possible to adopt this author's methods to the other sex, then so much the better. But it's not possible...not without some major refitting.



el33 said:


> As for the issue of settling, doesn't that apply to men too?


That applies in most of your cases, yes. You don't get the stripper or the or the model. Just like most women don't get the jock or the stockbroker. (Or whatever the hell one's ideal might be...I'm just pulling some rabbits out of the pit with those examples). Life very rarely works the way one wants it in that department.



el33 said:


> Granted we typically don't have to worry about being in a physically abusive relationship, but even in the case of women I'd say something like that is the exception, not the rule.


That might be true in some cases...but probably not in most. A high dose of self-esteem makes one hell of a difference with this problem. And I've known a lot more women with less rather than more. If they don't get involved in abusive relationships, then they abuse themselves. Once in a while, they abuse others. But self-hatred is required for the chicks.


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## el33 (Sep 18, 2006)

> Let's just leave out the fact that some of us (myself, etc.) might be disfigured, etc., because there's nothing to be done for those people other than going off somewhere and dying. Rolling Eyes (Hey, polite society expects that sort of thing with freaks, right?). And you are right about most of them. But I'll admit that I'm just plain damned frustrated since I'm in the minority. And there aren't any rule books for the love-shy females. The only solution to their problem is learning how to adopt the eye-fluttering "Ooh, daddy, me love you long time!" mentality (AKA, become a *****).
> 
> I'd rather have some practical solutions other than that, myself. If it were possible to adopt this author's methods to the other sex, then so much the better. But it's not possible...not without some major refitting.


If you really are disfigured, then my sympathies, though I'm not sure what more I can say in terms of dealing with that sort of thing 

Shyness is perceived differently in the sexes though. A degree of shyness in a woman can actually be considered a positive social attribute. Men are socially expected to be aggressive and confident, with shyness being a sign of weakness. That's the fundamental point that the author works around IMHO - that shyness in men is a huge socially/romantically repulsion factor while it is not so in women.

I think the author pretty much says a love-shy woman (assuming she is otherwise more or less normal) will not experience anywhere close to the difficulty of a love-shy male in finding a mate simply because the man has to be the initiator.



> That applies in most of your cases, yes. You don't get the stripper or the or the model. Just like most women don't get the jock or the stockbroker. (Or whatever the hell one's ideal might be...I'm just pulling some rabbits out of the pit with those examples). Life very rarely works the way one wants it in that department.


But the difference is that Joe Average will approach the woman, and all she has to do is accept or reject him. The man has to actually approach Jane Average and risk that sting of rejection. This is completely out of the blue, but if one were to do a survey of 1000 men and 1000 women, all of whom are say, age 30, I'm sure you'll find considerably more men who have never had girlfriends than women who have never had boyfriends. Or at least, you'll find few women who have never at least been approached by some man even if she rejected him. Again, this is assuming you aren't obese or disfigured or otherwise so completely out of the norm.


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## Carbon Breather (Mar 13, 2005)

el33 said:


> Shyness is perceived differently in the sexes though. A degree of shyness in a woman can actually be considered a positive social attribute. Men are socially expected to be aggressive and confident, with shyness being a sign of weakness. .


From experience i've noticed that people react when they meet a shy guy because they expect men to be extroverted and forward and people react the same way when a girl starts to talk in a loud and agressive way.



> But the difference is that Joe Average will approach the woman, and all she has to do is accept or reject him. The man has to actually approach Jane Average and risk that sting of rejection. This is completely out of the blue, but if one were to do a survey of 1000 men and 1000 women, all of whom are say, age 30, I'm sure you'll find considerably more men who have never had girlfriends than women who have never had boyfriends. Or at least, you'll find few women who have never at least been approached by some man even if she rejected him. Again, this is assuming you aren't obese or disfigured or otherwise so completely out of the norm.


I just thought it was funny that there's a thread called
"i keep turning guys down" :lol


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## Classified (Dec 7, 2004)

Maseur Shado said:


> Just call me Exception. I hold the world record for waiting to sleep with someone. Five years in one relationship, and it never happened. Where's my medal? :lol
> 
> Probably in most cases, provided the girl also sends along pictures of her boobs first. Her face can follow later.


If you spent 5 years in a relationship, this isn't really the book that you need. This is a book for people who fear contact or talking to people of the opposite gender. However, I'm sure there are some parts that might help you, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't fit the author's definition of love-shyness. If you are in a relationship and are too nervous to kiss, touch or even hold hands, that is a different problem. If you can't find good guys (or the right guy) or think that the only thing that guys want is a Victoria Secret model, that is a different problem.

And yes, someone could write a book about shy women and love-shy women, but I'm not sure what advice they would give that would differ from the normal advice.


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## Maseur Shado (Jun 7, 2005)

Classified said:


> If you spent 5 years in a relationship, this isn't really the book that you need. This is a book for people who fear contact or talking to people of the opposite gender.
> 
> 
> Classified said:
> ...


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Njodis said:


> I know this probably makes me a bad person, but I have been thinking of trying to approach women that I don't really find attractive. I feel like my anxiety is 100x worse if there is a woman that I find really attractive. I think I could do a lot better if I tried talking to women that I don't find attractive. Then again, there aren't many.


I don't agree with this at all. I believe that to have a successful relationship, you need physical attraction.

If you approach women who you don't find attractive, and say the woman goes for you, what do you do now? She will find out the truth eventually about why you approached her, and it's going to make her feel horrible.


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## el33 (Sep 18, 2006)

> Which is odd, because I believe that girls should go up to guys if they're interested in them.


Too bad more women don't think that way, and I think that is the root of the discussion here. Women, and society in general, expect men to always initiate. Women aren't supposed to suffer from the sting of being rejected when asking someone out - that's supposed to be the misfortune of the man. Hence, I think the response you'll get is something like "Why are you hurting yourself doing that? Let THEM (men) come to YOU!".

It's assumed that even a love-shy woman will still get to pick from the collection of suitors that present themselves to her. Even if she is "settling", the oppurtunities are there, presenting themselves to her.

A love-shy man has to go out and make those oppurtunities himself, or he'll get none. He can't even "settle" for anyone if there is no one there to begin with, and there will be no one unless he goes out and exposes himself in the line of fire to make it happen.

It's how gender roles work in most modern societies. I suppose some cultures have it "lucky" in that arranged marriages are common. Well, maybe not the strict forced arranged marriage kind, but there are arranged marriages that still leave the final decision to the couple.


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## Drella (Dec 4, 2004)

PGVan said:


> I believe that to have a successful relationship, you need physical attraction.


I'm screwed. :lol


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## Zephyr (Nov 8, 2003)

Drella's_Rock_Follies said:


> PGVan said:
> 
> 
> > I believe that to have a successful relationship, you need physical attraction.
> ...


 :ditto


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