# Initiating Physical Contact



## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

At 26, I'm finally starting to actually fight my anxiety disorder, which tenfolds around women I like. I got to know one girl online and we've gone on 3 dates now, and after the last one, she came to my place to watch a movie. We chat online every night, we text each other all day. I never imagined I could be so comfortable communicating with a girl I like and I didn't feel much anxiety at all when she was at my place. I have one problem however... physical contact.

As mentioned, 3 dates and neither one of us has made a move for a simple hug or kiss. I've never been in a position to make such a move before, so I have no idea how to pick up on body language or any hints that she wants me to do such a thing. When she was over for a movie, I envisioned us lying on the couch together, but instead we sat there motionless for the duration of the movie. I told her she could put her feet up, get comfortable, offered her a blanket if she gets cold and she just said "that's ok thanks". Those couple hours were like pure torture for me.

I think it's obvious that we like each other, but that one move by either of us to push us to being more than just dating seems to be missing from both of us. I really like this girl and any advice on how to initiate the slightest bit of physical contact would be greatly appreciated.​


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## AussiePea (Mar 27, 2007)

Sounds like she is simply as shy as you are, and as a result none of you want to make a move so it remains stagnant. Chances are she desires it just as much as you do, so you kind of need to take a leap of fail and even just put your arm around her, enough for her to know that it's what you want as well.


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## Canadian Brotha (Jan 23, 2009)

I agree this is simply one of those "leap of faith" things, you just have to go for it & hope it's well received. A potentially good time try initiating some physical contact could be at the end of your next get together, when you walk her to her car or door or whatever, taking her hand when you go to say "I had a good night with you" could lead into a hug or kiss or both


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

Good for you.



Canadian Brotha said:


> A potentially good time try initiating some physical contact could be at the end of your next get together, when you walk her to her car or door or whatever, taking her hand when you go to say "I had a good night with you" could lead into a hug or kiss or both


Yeah, go for the hug first. And if you want to kiss her, pull away from the hug slowly, looking into her eyes... and I think you'll be able to tell if she wants to.


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## MattFoley (Dec 5, 2009)

emptybottle2 said:


> Yeah, go for the hug first. And if you want to kiss her, pull away from the hug slowly, looking into her eyes... and I think you'll be able to tell if she wants to.


This is a really good suggestion. After the hug you'll be able to see in her eyes what she wants. In general after a lot of eye contact is a good time to make your move. It always helps to feel connected to the other person in a more significant way to the point where you stop worrying and just act. But like others said you just have to take that leap of faith. I guarantee that once you kiss her your anxiety will be gone quicker than you expect.


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## Miss Apprehensive (Jul 17, 2009)

If you want to start really slow, put your arm around her or hold her hand or give her a hug. If she gets a slight sparkle in her eyes then give her a kiss because that's a sign she probably wants more affection(maybe it's just me but my eyes light up when I think about kissing a guy I like, or kissed my ex when we were dating).


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## melissa75 (Feb 16, 2010)

Also, give her a hug when you first see her, smile, and tell her she's pretty or looks great. Instantly show you're physically attracted to her...


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## Rixy (Oct 4, 2009)

If you're hugging, slowly break away from the hug when it's over. Slowwwwly.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

Start very small. For instance, if it's cold you can touch her hand to test its temperature while saying what you're doing. That way you have a reason other than intimacy to initiate a touch, which might be easier. If she reacts OK, hold it in yours to warm it up.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

Physical contact is critical. I know it isn't easy, I really do, but the faster you do it the better. That doesn't mean that you need to hug them, or kiss them, or hold their hand even, but you should so something. It could be a handshake, or high five, or a playful thumb war, whatever, but it brings an intimate connection that is needed for a relationship to move forward, and it is something you must conquer. 

On new years, when I got the girl I'm seeing to kiss me for the first time, I knew I had to make some sort of physical contact first, and I thought I would fail when I didn't get a chance early on. When we started to watch a movie I forced myself to sit close to her, touching her a bit just in sitting. Later I put my arm around her (I didn't do it smoothly but the end result is what mattered), and apparently had I moved in for the kiss she would have given it at that point. It didn't go that way, but again, the end result is the only thing that mattered. 

If she likes you she wants you to do this, do it. Even if you're not smooth, whatever, because it will either work or not, but if you don't, the relationship is doomed.


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## sarafinanickelbocker (May 16, 2010)

lonelyjew said:


> Physical contact is critical. I know it isn't easy, I really do, but the faster you do it the better. That doesn't mean that you need to hug them, or kiss them, or hold their hand even, but you should so something. It could be a handshake, or high five, or a playful thumb war, whatever, but it brings an intimate connection that is needed for a relationship to move forward, and it is something you must conquer.
> 
> On new years, when I got the girl I'm seeing to kiss me for the first time, I knew I had to make some sort of physical contact first, and I thought I would fail when I didn't get a chance early on. When we started to watch a movie I forced myself to sit close to her, touching her a bit just in sitting. Later I put my arm around her (I didn't do it smoothly but the end result is what mattered), and apparently had I moved in for the kiss she would have given it at that point. It didn't go that way, but again, the end result is the only thing that mattered.
> 
> If she likes you she wants you to do this, do it. Even if you're not smooth, whatever, because it will either work or not, but if you don't, the relationship is doomed.


^^^ PGs  You can do it buddy! She seems like a sweet girl and I bet she won't knock you for it AND if she wants you to do it (I bet she does) you'll be happy with the end result. DO IT!!!


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

All I can think about with the advice (and it is all good, don't take this the wrong way)... is when I read something like "move in for a kiss" .. HOW do I do that? :um

I'm going to her place for dinner and a movie tomorrow. I'm excited but sooooo nervous. I hope I don't pet her dog more than I try to touch her.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

I went to her house for dinner tonight. She cooked a great lasagna. We watched a movie after, but as far as physical contact goes, it was the same damn thing. We were inches apart from each other and neither one of us could break the forcefield. I wanted to make the move so ****ing bad, but it's like there's something blocking my body from reacting to what my brain is telling it to do.

I think a major part of this, is that I have the fears that most 14 year-olds have with girls and touching them, and I'm almost 27.

I feel like complete garbage right now. I've gone through depression in dealing with anxiety and loneliness, but now that a girl I like is right there in front of me, not being able to do anything about it hurts almost worse. I'm lost as to what to do about it.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

^ I know what you mean about the forcefield. Try not to beat yourself up or you will get more tense about the situation. In fact, you are much more likely to relax around her if you tell yourself the opposite - to never, ever touch her (paradoxical intention). Maybe she's not the right person if she's also unable to do anything. Two of such people can still fail even when they do initiate something because there are different levels of intimacy and various barriers to get over.


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## lonelygirl88 (Dec 25, 2009)

Being a shy girl, I'm giving good advice here for what has worked on me...

Do things gradual.. (like):

Casually put your hand on top of hers. Or casually put it on her lap. See how she reacts. If you think she likes it, try holding it. Test the waters...

Sit closer to her while watching the movie. Look in her eyes. How does she react?
Doe she also get in closer or follow your lead? Or does she kind of back up?

If I wasn't into a guy and they casually put their arm around me, then I casually shrugged it off. If I am into them, then I lean in closer and it feels nice 

One last word of advice: If you don't take chances, you will never know. The key is to take small ones or it could be a turn off to a particular person. She seems on the shy/timid side, so don't do anything overboard like just sucking face out of no where.

Also, the more time you wait- the more awkward it will be.
It's best to figure out her romantic level of interest sooner rather than later. If she likes you, she will want you to do stuff. If she doesn't she never will and it's best to know that now.


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

Take her to a few bars, get her hammered, on the way home slip on her fav cd, run out of petrol in the woods. Then say we wil have to spend the night out hear, but dont worry you can get in my sleeping bag with me.


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## deirdre (Jan 18, 2011)

PGVan said:


> I went to her house for dinner tonight. She cooked a great lasagna. We watched a movie after, but as far as physical contact goes, it was the same damn thing. We were inches apart from each other and neither one of us could break the forcefield. I wanted to make the move so ****ing bad, but it's like there's something blocking my body from reacting to what my brain is telling it to do.
> 
> I think a major part of this, is that I have the fears that most 14 year-olds have with girls and touching them, and I'm almost 27.
> 
> I feel like complete garbage right now. I've gone through depression in dealing with anxiety and loneliness, but now that a girl I like is right there in front of me, not being able to do anything about it hurts almost worse. I'm lost as to what to do about it.


hey!

don't feel bad about this. you being so afraid to do anything probably only means she is important to you, so you want to do it right, and not lose her. 
it's not a bad thing!

look, just ask her if you can hug her - it would work with me 

she is probably just as afraid as you are, that's all - and that is not bad - because that means she likes you and doesn't want to ruin it either.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Okay,

You've got three circles. Stay with me on this one.

Comfort 
Stretch
Panic

Right now you are comfortable doing certain things. You can expand on that and stretch yourself to do some things and there are some things which scare the living daylights out of you and you find you can't do yet.

That is ok. No need to rush. 

Trouble is, when you get advice about something, you start becoming self conscious: "oh, I must do this and remember to do this and...and..." all the means you get stuck in your head. 

Which is not where you want to be.

Remove the outcome dependence. It's gonna go how it's gonna go and you can easily recover if things go the way you don't want them to.

In the moment, put the attention on the girl. Notice what is going on with her. What kind of signals might she be giving you? 

Yes, gradual is the way to go. Trust yourself, trust her. It can be tough but that's ok. I still struggle with it and I've been working on this for what seems like forever and I've had sex and relationships so goodness knows what it was like for my first girlfriend. LOL. 

There are things you can do to relax yourself and throw your attention into the moment.

Oh, and look at how you feel about your own body. Because any issues there may well stop you sharing your body with someone else in any form of physical contact.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Start off small. Extend your hand out to her like you want to hold hands. If she gives you her hand, she feels comfortable with you. From there work your way up to hugging, kissing, and leather & spikes.


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## MattFoley (Dec 5, 2009)

^you're not supposed to start out with leather and spikes? Interesting...


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## Dempsey (Jun 27, 2009)

Maybe just some innocent contact first? Touch her for a second when talking to her.




Get in there man!


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

Maybe you can do a physical activity together where she'll likely have to touch you at some point, like grabbing your arm or hand while ice-skating. That way, it can happen without either of you thinking/stressing about it.


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## OrbitalResonance (Sep 21, 2010)

foxy said:


> Take her to a few bars, get her hammered, on the way home slip on her fav cd, run out of petrol in the woods. Then say we wil have to spend the night out hear, but dont worry you can get in my sleeping bag with me.


Best suggestion yet


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

PGVan said:


> I went to her house for dinner tonight. She cooked a great lasagna. We watched a movie after, but as far as physical contact goes, it was the same damn thing. We were inches apart from each other and neither one of us could break the forcefield. I wanted to make the move so ****ing bad, but it's like there's something blocking my body from reacting to what my brain is telling it to do.
> 
> I think a major part of this, is that I have the fears that most 14 year-olds have with girls and touching them, and I'm almost 27.
> 
> I feel like complete garbage right now. I've gone through depression in dealing with anxiety and loneliness, but now that a girl I like is right there in front of me, not being able to do anything about it hurts almost worse. I'm lost as to what to do about it.


Like I mentioned earlier, had I moved in for a kiss, I would have gotten it, but I didn't. I was scared, scared that it would offend her, and scared that it would lead to failure. When the movie we watched was over, I said "what, I'm not even going to get a kiss?" with a joking tone, but wholly serious. I won her over eventually, with words, but she wasn't shy about telling me that had I made a move it would have worked much better, and me having to ask was very unattractive.

I'm going to speak frankly, because while I do really really really empathize, and can completely relate, you really should be aware that the responsibility is yours. With very few exceptions across the animal world, the male is the "aggressive" one and it is on you to fulfill that role. Confidence = attractive, and forcing her to make contact does not convey this, and it is not attractive. I get that you don't want to mess up, fail, ruin everything, but by not acting you're doing just this. Take a gamble, make a move, even if it's a small one, and then keep building on it.

Hell, I'd say making the move is even more critical than it actually working. If you ever want to get better, it is necessary to make this first hard step, after things will get easier, and even if it doesn't work, next time it will be easier. Before I started seeing this girl, I had another I was interested in, I asked her out, and got her number. After I did that, I was more happy that I had asked (first girl I asked in like two and half years), and her giving me her number was icing on the cake. Obviously nothing came of it, but that didn't matter at all, because I knew that should nothing come of it, I was at least capable of asking girls out, and there would be more chances to do so in the future. Personal progress is critical, and so long as you at least make personal progress, you're coming out on top.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

lonelyjew said:


> I'm going to speak frankly, because while I do really really really empathize, and can completely relate, you really should be aware that the responsibility is yours.


I disagree with this. The responsibility is both of ours to show each other that we like one another, if that is indeed the case. I want to make the move because I want to, not because I'm the guy and "have to".

I also disagree with making the move being more important than the result. I need the result to be positive to feel any kind of satisfaction and for it to result in a growth in confidence. If I make the move and get shut down, that's just going to knock me back to where I was before... afraid to even communicate.

After I got home the other night I talked with my aunt about this all and on her advice, I sent the girl a text message that said again that I had a great time at her place, dinner was awesome, that I was disappointed with myself for not being able to show it with a hug and/or a kiss and that I like her a lot and we will do something again soon.

I don't know if that was the best option, but at least I made it less confusing for her than it may have been.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

You can disagree, but the fact is that in the regular boy/girl social dynamic, it's the guy who pushes things. This can be seen in guys being "players" if they sleep around, and girls being considered ****s for doing the same and it's the same reason why most girls won't be the ones who ask for the date. Either way, if you leave it in her hands, nothing might come of it.

I'm not saying rape her, I'm just saying, next time you're watching a movie, move in closer to her and get some contact. She probably wants it as much as you, and you're making a much bigger deal of it than you probably should be (possibly she is as well). You might want her to initiate, but she might not be willing to do so, and the end result of depending on her to do so could simply mean the relationship ends. You can't count on her, but you can count on yourself, and the longer you wait, the more you build it up, the more the discomfort grows, and, after a point, it will likely become damaging. Seriously, she probably wants you to do it, so suck it up, and do it. You'll feel a lot better for it, when after your knees initially touch, and she doesn't recoil, you put your arm around her, and she rests her body on yours.

edit*



PGVan said:


> ]
> After I got home the other night I talked with my aunt about this all and on her advice, I sent the girl a text message that said again that I had a great time at her place, dinner was awesome, that I was disappointed with myself for not being able to show it with a hug and/or a kiss and that I like her a lot and we will do something again soon.


Don't apologize like that.... It's not good for anyone. Saying you had a great time and you want to see her again is fine, but if your Aunt actually suggested you apologize, well, I would avoid advice from her in the future. You shouldn't need to explain yourself, not yet. You also really should work towards at least seeming confident because, as understanding as this girl might be, low self esteem and self confidence just is not attractive. The thing is, like you mentioned in saying it's both of your responsibilities, a message like that effectively absolves her. While open dialogue is great, until you actually have built some real connection, don't burden her with your problems and weaknesses. You don't need to lie about who you are, but revealing every ugly detail at the beginning won't help you.


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## lonelygirl88 (Dec 25, 2009)

I agree with lonelyjew


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

PGVan said:


> I disagree with this. The responsibility is both of ours to show each other that we like one another, if that is indeed the case. I want to make the move because I want to, not because I'm the guy and "have to".


You're forgetting that the feminist push in our society of recent decades only applies where _rights_ and _choices_ for women are involved. Any sort of traditionally-masculine _responsibility_ remains so.

Unfair? You bet. But trying to buck it won't get you anywhere, as a lot of the responses have already indicated.



> I also disagree with making the move being more important than the result. I need the result to be positive to feel any kind of satisfaction and for it to result in a growth in confidence. If I make the move and get shut down, that's just going to knock me back to where I was before... afraid to even communicate.


Of course the result matters. In fact, it's virtually _all_ that matters. People on SAS just can't be realistic; they'd have you live in a world where "everyone who tries is a winner!" not merely at age 10, but also at 25, 30, and beyond.

Just reassuring you that you're not the one who's crazy. 



> After I got home the other night I talked with my aunt about this all and on her advice, I sent the girl a text message that said again that I had a great time at her place, dinner was awesome, that I was disappointed with myself for not being able to show it with a hug and/or a kiss and that I like her a lot and we will do something again soon.
> 
> I don't know if that was the best option, but at least I made it less confusing for her than it may have been.


This made me cringe, and also brought on PTSD-like flashbacks.

You see, I was once in this type of situation, though admittedly a worse version of it. It was the most embarrassing and emasculating experience of my life. I'd been "friends" with a girl whom I was attracted to for several months, never during that time finding the balls even to contemplate making a move. One day she finally point-blank asks me (online) if I see us as relationship material, and I'm ecstatic, thinking my dreams have finally come true: that I've entered into a relationship with the girl of my dreams _without_ having had to initiate myself. Tradition be damned!

Except tradition, as relates to the masculine gender role in a heterosexual relationship, evidently can't be circumvented quite so simply. From that point on, it was like a trainwreck of dominoes falling. We continued to hang out constantly for _months_ afterward, and the entire time, the best I could ever muster was to initiate cuddling, hugging, etc. That's right: _months_ after this girl had basically declared us to be in a relationship, I hadn't even moved in for a kiss, let alone anything sexual. When this was finally raised as a complaint on her part, the nail was in the coffin. I "knew" I had to do it, but the fact it had even come up in conversation made the proposition awkward beyond words for an already off-the-charts awkward guy like myself.

Needless to say, it didn't take too long for her to ditch me, but the aftermath is what stings. She essentially told me that my lack of aggression and making moves was a huge turn-off, and that at a certain point, the relationship could not be salvaged even if I had finally gone through with doing so. At some point during the whole debacle, I had actually apologized to her for my timidness; she found it revolting that I'd chosen this over simply overcoming it at that same moment.

And this girl was probably mild SA material, mind you. Much like the poll results and discussion we see on SAS, this just goes to show that even shy girls generally have little tolerance for guys who are shy in the context of relationships. I fear for your situation not because you didn't make a move after one or two dates, but because you apologized for it. My honest assessment based upon what my "ex" told me (along with the reactions of various mutual friends with whom she gladly shared this info later on) is that if your girl doesn't let your "apology" text dampen her feelings for you, she's a rare catch indeed. At the very least, you *must, MUST* actually make a move the next time you see her now. If you do, you're a braver man than I (which is roughly like saying you're a taller man than Danny DeVito) and hopefully your story turns out differently.

Keep us posted.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

lonelyjew said:


> You can disagree, but the fact is that in the regular boy/girl social dynamic, it's the guy who pushes things. This can be seen in guys being "players" if they sleep around, and girls being considered ****s for doing the same and it's the same reason why most girls won't be the ones who ask for the date. Either way, if you leave it in her hands, nothing might come of it.


SHE invited me to her house for dinner. I'll just leave it at that. I know what the ridiculous social norms are, but nothing about it is fact if it CAN happen the other way around.



lonelyjew said:


> Don't apologize like that.... It's not good for anyone. Saying you had a great time and you want to see her again is fine, but if your Aunt actually suggested you apologize, well, I would avoid advice from her in the future. You shouldn't need to explain yourself, not yet. You also really should work towards at least seeming confident because, as understanding as this girl might be, low self esteem and self confidence just is not attractive. The thing is, like you mentioned in saying it's both of your responsibilities, a message like that effectively absolves her. While open dialogue is great, until you actually have built some real connection, don't burden her with your problems and weaknesses. You don't need to lie about who you are, but revealing every ugly detail at the beginning won't help you.


Who said anything about apologizing? I told her I was disappointed with myself for not being able to make a move. That's not apologizing. Apologizing involves the words "I'm sorry", and I did nothing of the sort. Her response to the text was "that's ok". We are chatting and texting like we have been for months now.

Why does telling her I wasn't happy with myself at her place mean that I'm suddenly "burdening" her with the ugly details of my problems and weaknesses? Respond to what I write, not what you assume from it.

As for the confidence thing, you can't "seem" confident unless you are. There is no such thing as faking it. You either are confident or you aren't. Clearly I'm confident being around her, I just have issues with touching in general, and it's even worse around a girl I like.


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## TheGMan (Jun 10, 2004)

Congrats on starting to deal with your anxiety and making the effort to start dating a girl. That is a big step, and it seems like things are going well even if you haven't reached certain milestones of physical contact.

Here is what I think about the physical contact: If these are dates and there is no ambiguity about that, and it seems like that is the case, your intiation of physical contact would not only be appreciated but probably expected. I don't want to go over my life story, but I have been in many situations where I thought things were going well but my lack of "aggression" resulted in a female thinking I was not interested, and the amount of time for that conclusion ranged from as little as a couple hours of 1 date/non-date to at the most 2-3 dates. Without getting into arguments about feminism and all that stuff, that has just been my experience- that some kind of contact is expected while dating..and that the male initiates unless the female just can't help herself.

There is no reason NOT to intiate contact. She likes you or she wouldn't keep dating you. All this seems pretty clear. Just try what feels natural and move slowly. There is no way she should object UNLESS she has a completely different idea of what is going on. And if that is the case, you would want to find out before you get too invested in the situation.

While it might seem harsh or somewhat of an attack, I think the one poster above was just trying to be helpful. Sometimes you do more harm than good trying to discuss certain things or APPEAR to be apologizing for things that do or do not happen. We tend to overanalyze these things and seek reassurance, but the thing with kissing and all that stuff is, sometimes you just gotta Do It.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

I appreciate it, but advice of the "just do it" variety is the worst advice you can give to somebody who suffers anxiety. 

My problem with touching is that none of it feels natural to me. I want it to, but I just don't have the instinct for it. 

I also don't understand the notion that guys initiate physical contact. I know the social norm is that girls don't like to ask guys out (as dumb as that is), but it always seemed to me that girls are the touchy-feely ones, not the guys.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

edit* I'm sorry if I seem harsh, I'm just trying to be frank here.*



PGVan said:


> SHE invited me to her house for dinner. I'll just leave it at that. I know what the ridiculous social norms are, but nothing about it is fact if it CAN happen the other way around.


Maybe she did ask you out, I know girls that have done that when they knew the guy wouldn't ask them out, but read the damn post above you. If you want to ignore everything I've said and hold out for the exception that's your call, just don't be disappointed when that exception doesn't fall into your lap.



PGVan said:


> Who said anything about apologizing? I told her I was disappointed with myself for not being able to make a move. That's not apologizing. Apologizing involves the words "I'm sorry", and I did nothing of the sort. Her response to the text was "that's ok". We are chatting and texting like we have been for months now.
> 
> Why does telling her I wasn't happy with myself at her place mean that I'm suddenly "burdening" her with the ugly details of my problems and weaknesses? Respond to what I write, not what you assume from it.


No. You don't need to say I'm sorry to have the message imply that. I'm not going to play semantics here, it's a waste of time when only the results matter, and the fact is that a message like that will at best do nothing for you in which case she's super understanding, and you become a pity case - burden, and at worst make her lose what attraction she has for you. That message, in so few words, paints your problems on the wall in glowing red paint, and that isn't attractive.

I'll deal with that last sentence later



PGVan said:


> As for the confidence thing, you can't "seem" confident unless you are. There is no such thing as faking it. You either are confident or you aren't. Clearly I'm confident being around her, I just have issues with touching in general, and it's even worse around a girl I like.


As far as faking confidence, you're wrong. I've done it plenty of times, and few people would have guessed that at my worst I really really hated myself and was terrified. Any time I've brought up my social anxiety with my GF (not many times), all she can do is ask if I really had/have it, and that I'm so good whenever she's had me meet her friends. It's not natural confidence, it's work, it's focused body language, and forced leaving of your comfort zone. It might not be pleasant at first, but it gets easier, and the more you do the more natural you get at it, and the more confident you get because you are overcoming your social anxiety.

And no, you're not being confident with her. Again, I've been where you are, with the girl I really liked before my GF. I was super "confident" in every way that involved being a nice guy, a friend. So while maybe you can chat her up, make her laugh, etc. That isn't confidence in terms of a romantic relationship.



PGVan said:


> I appreciate it, but advice of the "just do it" variety is the worst advice you can give to somebody who suffers anxiety.
> 
> My problem with touching is that none of it feels natural to me. I want it to, but I just don't have the instinct for it.
> 
> I also don't understand the notion that guys initiate physical contact. I know the social norm is that girls don't like to ask guys out (as dumb as that is), but it always seemed to me that girls are the touchy-feely ones, not the guys.


Look man, you posted asking for advice... I've been where you've been, and I posted my advice, based on my experience, based on my current successes, and so far you're the only who's disagreed. You don't like the game? Too bad because that's life, it isn't always fair, and it isn't always fun. In a fair world it would be enough that you are nice, sensitive, eager to make her happy, intelligent, etc. but it isn't. Attraction is necessary to a relationship. Let me repeat myself, *ATTRACTION IS NECESSARY TO A RELATIONSHIP*. If you fail at that aspect of it, then you're doomed, and if you make the choice to ignore the fundamentals of making yourself attractive, then you've chosen to doom yourself.



PGVan said:


> Respond to what I write, not what you assume from it.


You might look at this post and think "holy crap, this guy is obsessed or super argumentative (or both)," but I'm posting because I've gone through this same crap. People are very egocentric, they see their situations as being special, and their problems as being unique to them, but they aren't. Just like I try to help new premeds get oriented, because I wished I had someone there to help me, I hope that what I'm saying will help you, as I wished someone with similar experiences could have have helped me.

One thing that has made humanity successful is our natural ability to learn from each other's experiences without having to actually learn firsthand. One thing that I learned very well is that social anxiety is not some unstoppable force. It is not beyond you, it is in you. We use it as an excuse for our inaction, and our weakness, and to justify ourselves we build it up into something that is insurmountable. You learn to accept it's negative effects, and tell yourself that it's ok that you didn't make a move when you really wanted to, it was the anxiety, and without it you totally would have. That is much easier to say than **** me for being too scared to even touch this girl I like a tiny bit, I'll force myself next time.

When I read your posts I can picture what is going on very well, and though maybe I mess up some details, the overarching image I get is probably right. Why? Because, once again, I've been through all of this crap before. I've made all those same excuses. I've been scared and hated myself for it. I've also been proud and not wanted to see myself as a coward, giving into the fear that a girl might not like me, when she's even went as far as to tell me she does. Hell, I'm still there to some degree, and I still give into weakness, into my anxiety, and I still make excuses, but I am at least trying. I put myself out there, and every time I do it gets easier, and I get better. Suck it up, work through the discomfort, and stop using your social anxiety as an excuse, because doing so will forever keep you shackled to it.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

PGVan said:


> I also don't understand the notion that guys initiate physical contact. I know the social norm is that girls don't like to ask guys out (as dumb as that is), but it always seemed to me that girls are the touchy-feely ones, not the guys.


On a theoretical level, I don't understand it either. It's unfair, and many of the very women who demand it are adamant about sexual equality when it's convenient to them.

But I do understand that it's necessary for you to fulfill that traditional role in order to keep the overwhelming majority of girls attracted to you, and that's ultimately what matters.

As lonelyjew already explained at length, I've been in this situation before, and also thought mine was a "special case" and that I could just wait for the girl to initiate since I was the shy one. It doesn't work, unless you're *very* lucky. In general, even if the girl is shy herself and you'd think she'd empathize with the position you're in, she won't.

Notice that not a single girl who's replied has said anything like "maybe you can wait for her to initiate since you're shy," or "if she likes you enough, she'll come onto you first." Instead, the consensus message boils down to this: "you may have SA, but you've got to suck it up in this situation because you're the man." That's reality for us. And as I said earlier, if you somehow manage to keep this girl interested long-term while continuing to exhibit timidity towards physical contact, thank your lucky stars and don't let her out of your grip!


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## TheGMan (Jun 10, 2004)

PGVan said:


> I appreciate it, but advice of the "just do it" variety is the worst advice you can give to somebody who suffers anxiety.
> 
> My problem with touching is that none of it feels natural to me. I want it to, but I just don't have the instinct for it.
> 
> I also don't understand the notion that guys initiate physical contact. I know the social norm is that girls don't like to ask guys out (as dumb as that is), but it always seemed to me that girls are the touchy-feely ones, not the guys.


I've had social anxiety for longer than you've been alive. So I'm not being flippant by saying "just do it." There were many qualifiers to that- dating several times, being comfortable with the girl, mutual interest,etc. If you want to do something, sometimes you just have to try and maybe some other stuff will come natural. I understand what you are saying. It just seems like if you want something to happen then at some point it will.

Girls have asked me out.. and then expected me to initiate things.. So yeah, there's no one size fits all deal when it comes to this stuff. I'm not saying so much that you need to be the one to initiate, but that you are the one concerned about the lack of physical contact at this point- so you have the power to do something about that. And I was just trying to reassure you that it would be OK and there shouldn't be any reason for her to oppose it at this point if you are on the same page. Sorry if that came off the wrong way, and Good Luck.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

This is a fine line to walk. Do nothing, nothing will progress, and she'll think you don't like her or get turned off. 

Move too soon or without "permission", you might squash any chance you have with her. 

You've got to figure out how to be the initiator but without overstepping any boundaries. 

These mind games suck, but you know, what choice do you have .


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

lonelyjew said:


> No. You don't need to say I'm sorry to have the message imply that. I'm not going to play semantics here, it's a waste of time when only the results matter, and the fact is that a message like that will at best do nothing for you in which case she's super understanding, and you become a pity case - burden, and at worst make her lose what attraction she has for you. That message, in so few words, paints your problems on the wall in glowing red paint, and that isn't attractive."


Yes, you do need to say you're sorry to apologize. Anybody who takes what I sent her as an apology is reading something that isn't there.



lonelyjew said:


> As far as faking confidence, you're wrong. I've done it plenty of times, and few people would have guessed that at my worst I really really hated myself and was terrified. Any time I've brought up my social anxiety with my GF (not many times), all she can do is ask if I really had/have it, and that I'm so good whenever she's had me meet her friends. It's not natural confidence, it's work, it's focused body language, and forced leaving of your comfort zone. It might not be pleasant at first, but it gets easier, and the more you do the more natural you get at it, and the more confident you get because you are overcoming your social anxiety.


If that's the case for you, then congrats. For me, no I cannot fake confidence. It's just not in my abilities and I don't believe it is one that can be learned. I can become confident around somebody over time, but fake it at first? Not a chance.



lonelyjew said:


> And no, you're not being confident with her. Again, I've been where you are, with the girl I really liked before my GF. I was super "confident" in every way that involved being a nice guy, a friend. So while maybe you can chat her up, make her laugh, etc. That isn't confidence in terms of a romantic relationship.


In my opinion, the best relationships come from having that friendship first. If there is to be a romantic relationship, it has to come from both the guy and girl.



lonelyjew said:


> Look man, you posted asking for advice... I've been where you've been, and I posted my advice, based on my experience, based on my current successes, and so far you're the only who's disagreed. You don't like the game? Too bad because that's life, it isn't always fair, and it isn't always fun. In a fair world it would be enough that you are nice, sensitive, eager to make her happy, intelligent, etc. but it isn't. Attraction is necessary to a relationship. Let me repeat myself, *ATTRACTION IS NECESSARY TO A RELATIONSHIP*. If you fail at that aspect of it, then you're doomed, and if you make the choice to ignore the fundamentals of making yourself attractive, then you've chosen to doom yourself.


You don't make yourself attractive to somebody, you either are attractive to them or you're not. You find this out the more time you spend with them, but if there isn't at least a small initial attraction there, there will never be.

But no, I don't like the game and I will not play the game. Any relationship I might get into will be based on open honesty, not a set of theoretical rules that are meant for teenaged puppy love.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

I get how parents feel when they see their children make all of the same mistakes, and refuse to even try to see what they're saying...



PGVan said:


> Yes, you do need to say you're sorry to apologize. Anybody who takes what I sent her as an apology is reading something that isn't there.


 Fine, you didn't apologize, whatever you did, feeling the need to explain yourself, and explaining that you felt bad about it (as if you did something wrong), is not something that you should be doing. I've done it many times, and it never has the desired effect of absolving you. If you feel bad about it, do something about it, don't try to explain it away. You're only hurting yourself, please trust me on that.



PGVan said:


> If that's the case for you, then congrats. For me, no I cannot fake confidence. It's just not in my abilities and I don't believe it is one that can be learned. I can become confident around somebody over time, but fake it at first? Not a chance.


How exactly do you know that you can't fake confidence? Have you tried and failed? Have you tried again? And again? Eventually it works. If were handed a set of keys to a car without ever having driven one, do you think you could drive well your first time? It takes effort, but it really isn't so complicated, the hardest part is just overcoming your personal fears and then most of it is just trying to maintain a conversation (which is very easy when you ask about the other person and their interests). Not a chance? Not a chance only if you don't ever try.



PGVan said:


> In my opinion, the best relationships come from having that friendship first. If there is to be a romantic relationship, it has to come from both the guy and girl.


I agree with you, but if you don't want to be more than friends then why the hell post this in your first post?



PGVan said:


> I think it's obvious that we like each other, but that one move by either of us to push us to being more than just dating seems to be missing from both of us. I really like this girl and any advice on how to initiate the slightest bit of physical contact would be greatly appreciated.


 For the matter, why ask for advice if you're not willing to even consider it? The two aren't mutually exclusive, and you can (and should) build your friendship in a romantic relationship. In any case, my point was not at all don't be friends with her, it's that if you can only be confident as a friend, and lack romantic confidence, you're lacking a critical quality.



PGVan said:


> You don't make yourself attractive to somebody, you either are attractive to them or you're not. You find this out the more time you spend with them, but if there isn't at least a small initial attraction there, there will never be.


That's just wrong. I was going to just post "good luck" until I read this. You are not just attracted to someone and then not. There isn't some magical magnetic force that pulls people together or pushes them apart. There is a very complex social dynamic that controls attraction, and your attitude and behavior largely governs it. You're right that usually there needs to be some attraction there, but that attraction can be lost, or it can be built on.



PGVan said:


> But no, I don't like the game and I will not play the game. Any relationship I might get into will be based on open honesty, not a set of theoretical rules that are meant for teenaged puppy love.


Attraction, as mentioned above, is not some simple yes/no. There are no absolutes here, no rules that are in stone; it is particular to each person. However, because we are all humans and because we live in the same society, there are deeply ingrained "rules" of attraction that apply far more often than not. We hardly get to decide these things, and to ignore them, and be resentful of others because they don't feel the same, is both selfish and hypocritical (would you date a 500lb girl? be honest). It is vital that you know what the girl you're interested in will respond to, and because things like confidence, and being able to initiate are almost always wanted, those are things you should strive for.

Working towards making her attracted to you, making her want you, is not an evil thing btw. You're not taking advantage of her by getting her to want you. If she is attracted to you, by giving yourself to her, you'll make her happy and fill a need for her that nothing else can. You can't do that by ignoring her needs and desires. You can't make her passionate by refusing to try to act with confidence, by refusing to try to make some physical contact. You're not looking at what she wants, only at what you want her to want.

And what do you mean by open honesty? Because I am in agreement about honesty, but not about laying all of your cards on the table. That's what I meant by burden earlier. As your relationship builds, and you get to know each other, it's good to let each other know your flaws, but not all at once. That isn't fair.

edit*

You know, I have to say, I get the feeling like you don't want to consider what I have to say just for the sake of not considering. Perhaps I came off abrasive in my posts, but I am legitimately trying to help you. If you don't want it please just say so because, if this is a waste of my time, I'd like to know.

edit 2*

From the "what could the opposite gender do to be more attractive" thread in this forum



vegetarian said:


> Pretending to be confident and comfortable with yourself is the most important thing to attract the opposite sex.....
> 
> ....The guys I end up dating are always the ones that come up to me first. I hate making the first move and im sure im not the only one.....


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

Attraction is anything but stable. I've experienced how not acting when the partner wants you to proceed can destroy it where it was initially very high (and I've been on both sides and it's a huge passion-killer). Showing nerves and fear yet still acting has more merit because it displays character. Some people appreciate the nerves. In one situation, I could feel my date becoming resentful (by being more argumentative) due to this situation - many people have issues about their romantic worth and struggle to read your feelings for them - and it all dissipated through initiating handholding. If they're continuing to see and date you, they like you, and the potential rewards outweigh the risks.


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## TheGMan (Jun 10, 2004)

odd_one_out said:


> If they're continuing to see and date you, they like you, and the potential rewards outweigh the risks.


In a nutshell, that's what I was trying to say.
The post was about frustration over not having physical contact ( at least that's how I read it) in a dating situation, and expressed a desire to initiate that contact. I didn't think it was about how to continue to be friends and hope something might develop. So the replies were based on achieving that goal. I think there was some backtracking and rationalizing ( which is OK- I think we've all been there and understand in the face of anxiety). Try not to overanalyze things at this point. She likes you. Go with that.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Here's the latest...

I sent her a text asking how her day at work was going yesterday. She said it was rough, told me why, so I asked her if I could do anything. She said she needed to deal with it on her own. Fair enough, so I left the door open for her if she needed to talk.

Later last night I asked her if she was feeling better. She said no because her grandfather's doctors appointment did not go well (he was sick before and now he's worse). Then I got a long text back saying that she felt like garbage telling me, and that I'm an amazing guy, but she can't settle into a relationship right now. She needs to be on her own while she figures out some things about her life. She also said she wants to stay friends because she really likes talking to me and hanging out with me. My reply was that I understand, she shouldn't be sorry and I was honest with her in that I don't have many friends and that she was too good of a person to not have as a friend. I told her she can talk to me about anything at anytime and that's where we left off for the night.

Obviously I'm crushed. Last night was horrible and I did not sleep well. That said I am going to do what I said I would... keep going as a friend, help her through anything I can and hopefully as her life moves on there can be something in the future.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm really sorry to hear that PGVan... 

With the first girl I was attracted to we started out as friends, but there was always a tension, and we took turns rejecting each other. It hurt every time, and it killed my self esteem. I stayed friends with her through two boyfriends, and I got worse and worse both in my self esteem and SA. Each time this happened, I felt demasculated. It hurt, not just in the rejection, but in the damage it did to how I saw myself, even moreso because it only confirmed and cemented my already poor self view, and my belief that I was unable to build attraction. 

The things I tried to tell you above, they were learned through pain, through having to face my problems. It took another girl that I had huge hopes for pretty much writing me off after she found another guy, and the hatred, frustration, and insanity that it brought for me to look at my lack of understanding of attraction. You wouldn't believe how happy I was when I finally saw this, when I ended my denial. It took me out of that deep slump instantly as it presented a solution. 

I, like you, for so long, was aware that there are things that can be done to get a girl to be attracted to you. I felt they took advantage of women, and that their employment was immoral. I also had the expectation that I would find a girl who liked me for me, after all I was smart, sensitive, moral, and because I wanted to selflessly please any girl I was with, they would see me for the amazing guy I was. That was wishful thinking, and it was inaccurate thinking. I'm no less moral than I was, I just am wise enough to see that while attraction may be systematic in many ways, it is in no way logical and thought out. That girl crushing me, the month and a half of sheer torture and obsessive thinking was worth me seeing this.

This was not enough though. It took realizing I had SA, that my self esteem needed serious work, and more than a year of pushing myself to get better. Before you can be truly successful, you need to become ok with yourself (I don't know your situation), to gain some base confidence in yourself. Once I started to work on my SA, girls became second to me. After my first semester, in the summer, I had a girl ask me out! I also could "feel" attraction from other girls, but as much as I wanted to act, I still wasn't ready, and couldn't bring myself to. That summer, I had my now GF alone, at night, in a park, watching the stars, laying in the grass next to each other. I knew if I made my move, it would work but I was too scared to do it then. Finally, on New Years, I was ready, I made my move, and though I was scared and didn't handle it perfectly, or with complete confidence, it worked. Afterward, it seemed soooo clear, so obvious, and I hope that you will yourself see, and feel the same amazing feeling of success.

I just have to add about being friends with her. Like I said about the first girl, being her best friend after being rejected, did not nothing but hurt me, and pull me back. I can't describe how much hatred I directed at her, hatred that was self hatred redirected. In the end I couldn't stay her friend, she was a constant reminder of everything I hated about myself. More importantly, around her, no matter the progress I had made, I would revert back to my old self, the person she knew. As selfish as I felt it was, I needed to leave her, and it was only after I did cut her out of my life (it was made a lot easier because she didn't appreciate my friendship at that point...) to truly begin to better myself. 

Don't hesitate to make this same decision if being around her hurts. Again, I know it seems selfish, but you can't sacrifice yourself and your self image for her. Maybe you don't agree now, but just wait until she gets another boyfriend, and you have to truly face your "failure." It's ok to focus on yourself, in fact it's the best decision you can make.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Yeah, don't stay friends. The friends route is just trouble.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

VanDamMan said:


> Yeah, don't stay friends. The friends route is just trouble.


I didn't want to say it outright, but I'm glad you did. Frankly the OP isn't in a place where this could work. From a cost/benefit analysis she gets all of the benefits with you taking all of the costs. While she gets emotional support, companionship, validation, etc. on demand, with no expectation on her, you get stuck with giving all of the above on demand, a constant reminder that you're only _good _enough to be her friend, on her terms, when she wants. This is made so much worse if she gets a BF and should that BF be a piece of human garbage who makes her feel bad and gives her no emotional support, you'll be picking up all the slack, telling her she deserves better, how amazing she is, that she's right, and then you'll get to watch her go right back to him, giving him all of her affection, him hurting her again; wash, rinse, repeat. Oh, and then, after all of that, having to deal with being ignored when she doesn't feel like dealing with you, showing you that even though you care sooo much about her, and that you're hurting yourself for her, that she doesn't even care enough about you to return a phone call, or take time to see you, or ask you how you're doing.

So many painful memories; so many bad times. The only thing that makes it worth it is the promise I've made to myself: Never Again. If you decide to go the friends route, at least try to be aware of all of your emotions, and that the relationship stays fair. If you have to learn from pain, at least try to minimize what pain she'll make you feel.

Well, experiences may vary, but this happens to tons of guys, by girls who have no idea what they're doing, and how much pain they are causing.


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## strugglingforhope (Jun 13, 2009)

I'm Sorry to hear that, I was pulling for ya - I've been there. You can try the friends thing, but do your best to find someone else and don't let yourself linger on thinking about her - she probably will find another boyfriend at least that's what's happened when I've been told similar things. I know when I've been in your situation, it takes time to get over something like this but you will eventually. Try use this as a learning experience to get better for next time.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

I don't see this as being let down easy like it is in so many other situations. She's not going to have another guy in her life in a few weeks. She lives with her grandparents because her grandmother needs help taking care of her sick grandfather, and they didn't get good news from the doctor this week, which I think was her breaking point with stress she has in her life right now.

With the grandfather being sick, I completely empathize with her with it. I lost my grandfather 5 years ago, watching cancer slowly kill him. I would hate myself for not staying around to help her through that. 

I've fallen for other girls I've known in the past, but never enough to even ask for a date. There is something about this girl I cannot explain. I fell for her hard and fast and even though I couldn't make a physical move last week, using 20/20 hindsight, when we were basically shoulder-to-shoulder she didn't move away so I know there was something there. Even though I know it is going to hurt being around her in just a friend capacity, I hope to at least keep a spark lit while she takes care of her life. I need to try again when she is ready. I did say "who knows what the future holds" and she didn't rebuff to that.

I flat out told her that it will be tough for me, because I'm not experienced with this kind of thing. She kept saying she was sorry, but I told her not to be and that I understand where she is, and I do. If anything, while remaining friends I can tell her about some of my low times in a way to relate to her... lay some more of my open and honest cards on the table, and maybe she will be more open to me helping her out, as she seems individualistic when dealing with low times.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

PGVan said:


> I don't see this as being let down easy like it is in so many other situations. She's not going to have another guy in her life in a few weeks. She lives with her grandparents because her grandmother needs help taking care of her sick grandfather, and they didn't get good news from the doctor this week, which I think was her breaking point with stress she has in her life right now.
> 
> With the grandfather being sick, I completely empathize with her with it. I lost my grandfather 5 years ago, watching cancer slowly kill him. I would hate myself for not staying around to help her through that.
> 
> I've fallen for other girls I've known in the past, but never enough to even ask for a date. There is something about this girl I cannot explain. I fell for her hard and fast and even though I couldn't make a physical move last week, using 20/20 hindsight, when we were basically shoulder-to-shoulder she didn't move away so I know there was something there. Even though I know it is going to hurt being around her in just a friend capacity, I hope to at least keep a spark lit while she takes care of her life. I need to try again when she is ready.


I appreciate that, and I was the same with the girl I apparently vented about above. Here's excerpts from posts I made on another forum in 2007 about a diff girl:



> As far as nexting her, I won't do it yet. She's my friend and I'm not about to abandon her when she's at her weakest. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying, I'd do the same for any of my friends. I am willing to hurt myself if necessary to help a friend who is really in need; I'm not about to give my morals up for something as selfish as keeping a bit of pain away.
> 
> I'm honestly not too worried about the whole thing for the time being. I've accepted that there is absolutely no chance of us getting together right now with her living across the state, having a boyfriend, and being in debt.





> Let me ask you something though, have you ever known anyone who's went through a serious depression? Do you know what it's like to sit all day, feeling like there is no point to life, that nothing is worth doing, that sleep is the only way out? I know she has and it sounds like she relapsed into it. It's not like she's just sad or emotional. It's not just something you get out of and it's not a joke.
> 
> This time I do know what is going on and she still is my friend. I honestly don't see a massive problem in helping her through this ordeal; it's not as if I'm expecting us to get together or anything like that. Would you not help a person with their problems just because of sex? I hope not. I hope you can find more than sex in a women.


A month later, after falling off the planet and ignoring phone calls, emails (they weren't constant, and they did become "I hope you're ok" things eventually), and then saying she would come to town, and making no attempt to see me:



> Nexted


There is always something depressing, a reason you _need_ to be there for them, something that would make you bad for leaving. She never asks you to stay, but she doesn't need to, you're doing the right thing, being the good guy, even if that means hurting yourself. This girl wasn't the one I ranted about. She herself was a good person, and suffered so many things through her whole life. She never asked me to suffer for her, but suffer I did.

The girl I did rant about, her first BF got her addicted to heroin and drained her of her pretty significant savings in the process. I helped her through that, even after she went back to him I stood by her, helping her through it. I helped her through depression, and was her only friend for a while, blowing off other friends when she called sounding depressed, needing to talk. I was the good guy like you are. That's just one boyfriend to lol.

At the time I thought it would be inhumane and hypocritical to leave these friends, I would have hoped they'd be there for me so how could I just give up? Well, ask yourself, has she been there for you? Have you not been going through your own serious problems? Do you want to know what the breaking point was for me? I called her feeling so alone, so depressed, just needing to hang out with someone, to not be alone. I didn't say it outright, but I was really pushing to try to see her. She was with other friends, and clearly didn't even want to talk to me on the phone, and as soon as I gave her an out "or maybe I could do homework," she said "yeah, you should probably do that," and the convo ended.... That was the only time I ever really needed her, after years of loyalty to her. That's what being a nice guy gets you with a lot of girls.

I have friends who would help, and who have helped, and I'd do a lot to help them, but many others won't, and frankly they're not worth that very real sacrifice you're willing to make. She might always need you to be there, but if she can't appreciate your being there enough to reciprocate it isn't worth it.



PGVan said:


> I've fallen for other girls I've known in the past, but never enough to even ask for a date. There is something about this girl I cannot explain. I fell for her hard and fast and even though I couldn't make a physical move last week, using 20/20 hindsight, when we were basically shoulder-to-shoulder she didn't move away so I know there was something there. Even though I know it is going to hurt being around her in just a friend capacity, I hope to at least keep a spark lit while she takes care of her life. I need to try again when she is ready.


Stop that. Is it possible you'll get her back? Yes. Will you? Extremely doubtful. She isn't _the one_ but only the one you want right now, who you want all the more because she dumped you. Dammit I wish I could give you my experiences, your posts have me reliving this crap, this exact same crap. It's almost certainly too late for romance because she no longer sees you the same way she did even a few days ago. Maybe there was something there, but it's gone. Frankly, the only way to get her back at this point would be to not be her friend, to not be there for her, and to use the "evil" tricks of attraction. I wouldn't bother, you're too nice to be that dick (I was at least). You are much better off moving on.

There will be other girls, better girls, you'll see. Just work on yourself.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

Wow, you know, in all of this remembering, I forgot one thing... One huge thing... I've been through this, I've felt what you're feeling, and others have before me. They told me what I'm trying to tell you and I didn't listen, just as you aren't listening now. I argued the same arguments, and I thought I was above all of their crap. I learned through pain, you might have to as well.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

You'll save yourself a pain and self-respect if you just let her go. There is nothing worse than chasing after someone who really isn't interested in you. Its not healthy for you.

If you seriously want her though, the best thing you could do is to start dating other women. If she sees that other women respect and value you, she might also. Still a long shot.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

VanDamMan said:


> Yeah, don't stay friends. The friends route is just trouble.


This. x1000000.

I also speak from experience.

Cutting off all contact is the best route. If you can't bring yourself to do that, at least keep any contact minimal and very superficial.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

lonelyjew said:


> Stop that. Is it possible you'll get her back? Yes. Will you? Extremely doubtful. She isn't _the one_ but only the one you want right now, who you want all the more because she dumped you.


She didn't dump me. We were not in a relationship. We were on the brink of one, but she pulled back because of a rough situation in her life that escalated just yesterday. I just exchanged a few texts with her about random stuff like we always do. She's not ignoring me. I know the next while is going to be rough for me, but like I told her last night, she's too good of a person to not want to be friends with. I know things about her that I'm not going to get into here, but I know that she is genuine and doesn't lead anybody on. I got to know her for 3-4 months before we even went on our first date, so you're just going to have to trust me on that.


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

*blown out*

Man you have just been blown out in the nicest way . So leave it at that . She dont want you its that simple ,


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

PGVan said:


> She didn't dump me. We were not in a relationship. We were on the brink of one, but she pulled back because of a rough situation in her life that escalated just yesterday. I just exchanged a few texts with her about random stuff like we always do. She's not ignoring me. I know the next while is going to be rough for me, but like I told her last night, she's too good of a person to not want to be friends with. I know things about her that I'm not going to get into here, but I know that she is genuine and doesn't lead anybody on. I got to know her for 3-4 months before we even went on our first date, so you're just going to have to trust me on that.


You and semantics...

You're not interested in being _just_ friends with her btw, you can't backpedal on that, and you'll see soon enough what it feels like to be _just_ friends with a girl you're romantically interested in, that gave you a shot that you blew. Prepare yourself for a wild, very bumpy, emotional ride.

This thread, to me, is like watching a train wreck in slow motion, knowing I know how to stop it, but also knowing I can do nothing about it, and won't have any effect. Like I said, I ignored everyone just like you, and suffered for it, but I learned. Maybe your experience will be more positive, but if it isn't, I hope you learn from it as well.


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## sarafinanickelbocker (May 16, 2010)

PGVan said:


> Obviously I'm crushed. Last night was horrible and I did not sleep well. That said I am going to do what I said I would... keep going as a friend, help her through anything I can and hopefully as her life moves on there can be something in the future.


You are a good friend. Hang in there buddy. :hug :heart


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

I find it ridiculous that you guys think all girls are the same. This isn't some teenage puppy love thing where there are a set of rules and everything said means something different. You guys seem to think it's a guarantee that she's going to be with another guy in a matter of days. 

Of course I know it's possible we might never be together, but she really does have issues going on in her life that would be difficult for anybody to start a new relationship while dealing with them...and one of the circumstances being something I went through myself 5 years ago when I watched cancer slowly kill my grandfather. Only a bad person would stop having anything to do with her when you built a friendship prior to dating, which is how it should be in my opinion. The best relationships come from friendships.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

PGVan said:


> I find it ridiculous that you guys think all girls are the same. This isn't some teenage puppy love thing where there are a set of rules and everything said means something different. You guys seem to think it's a guarantee that she's going to be with another guy in a matter of days.
> 
> Of course I know it's possible we might never be together, but she really does have issues going on in her life that would be difficult for anybody to start a new relationship while dealing with them...and one of the circumstances being something I went through myself 5 years ago when I watched cancer slowly kill my grandfather. Only a bad person would stop having anything to do with her when you built a friendship prior to dating, which is how it should be in my opinion. The best relationships come from friendships.


All girls are still girls, and all girls who grew up in this society grew up in this society. Hey, she might be an exception, they're out there, winning lottery tickets are out there to you know. Hell, why am I even bothering, I know I didn't listen, and I know you won't. Stay her friend, just try to be mindful of your own emotional state. The thing is that once you do see that she is making you hate yourself, you'll be used to her company, and it'll make it that much harder to leave. If she does get a boyfriend get the hell out of there.

Good luck, hope you don't get too hurt.

edit*
Also, you might think we're rediculous, but notice there are no guys (and only one girl who wants you to stay friends) who have agreed with you on anything, because we've been there, and we've learned that the idealism you have is just that. You don't see one guy telling you to go the way you have decided to go because none of them have been in your situation and have come out the way you fantasize it might come out. When I was doing the same crap as you many people told me the exact same things I've tried to tell you, because they all went through the same crap. When I said I'd go your same route, questioning their morality just as you are likely questioning ours, nobody told me it would be a good idea. You are looking at this like a logical guy, attraction isn't logical, and neither is emotion. What we tell you doesn't make logical sense, but when you realize that dealing with women isn't a logical endeavor, it'll make complete sense.

To make an over simplified example, you're sitting by a campfire in the cold with us. You start reaching to put you hand in the fire, one of us stops you and says "dude, you don't want to do that, it'll hurt." "But when I got close to the fire from over there I felt better, warmer, so if I've only felt it get better as I got closer, it'll feel great when I touch it," you reply. We're like "no, trust us, it'll hurt, a lot." You, "that doesn't make any sense, why would it hurt all of a sudden?" Us, "it just does; it gets too warm." "Whatever guys," you say, reaching towards the fire. "Look, this is what it did to us!" We yell, showing you our various burned body parts (some of us having many scars). You look at our burns, then at the dancing pretty flames, then at our burns, and then at the flames. It is up to you to decide to risk reaching in, seeing if you'll suffer the same fate, or if maybe something different will happen.


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## Paragon (Apr 13, 2010)

It's just down to experience, and i happen to agree with lonelyjew 'cos i've been through similar things (several times, lol). Like it or not, in *most* cases things follow a certain pattern, a trend, whether you like that trend or not. Sure there are exceptions to every rule but it's not the norm.

I hope this all works out one way or another anyhow.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

Paragon said:


> It's just down to experience, and i happen to agree with lonelyjew 'cos i've been through similar things (several times, lol). Like it or not, in *most* cases things follow a certain pattern, a trend, whether you like that trend or not. Sure there are exceptions to every rule but it's not the norm.
> 
> I hope this all works out one way or another anyhow.


Exactly.

And lonelyjew's best point was the simplest to notice: _not a single guy_ has recommended staying friends. We've all had the same experience. So have virtually all my real-life friends. Humans are not above nature. Patterns and generalities exist, and I'm sorry, but you're almost certainly about to play this pattern out for the trillionth time.

A few girls may recommend staying friends with her. But of course; they're in the position of power in these situations. Emotionally and psychologically, this setup benefits the girl, and at the guy's expense.

When all is said and done, you'll get over her and move on one way or another. But the longest-lasting regrets come not from losing one individual girl, but rather from losing self-respect and dignity in the process.


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## fingertips (Jan 11, 2009)

stay friends. unless it really hurts.

there we go.


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## lonelygirl88 (Dec 25, 2009)

The bottom line is that if someone is romantically attracted to you, then they won't want to be "just friends." I understand that she is busy and has serious stuff going on in her life. She has good reason for her choice. But still, don't base too much hope on when those issues end for romance to suddenly form. It is unlikely for a sexual attraction to just happen. It's the type of thing that either is or isn't there. Not saying it won't happen for you. I just don't want you to get your hopes up.

From my personal experience, telling a guy that I want to "just be friends" is a way of softening the blow. Sure, if there is stress in my life that just makes an easier thing to put the blame on. But if I *really* wanted to date them, then even in a time of need, actually especially in a time of need, I would want to date them. Or at least kiss them or do something romantic with them. Not necessarily form a full blown relationship, but at least enjoy their company on a "flirty" kind of level...If anything it would take my mind off things...


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## BeNice (Jan 2, 2004)

lonelyjew said:


> Wow, you know, in all of this remembering, I forgot one thing... One huge thing... I've been through this, I've felt what you're feeling, and others have before me. They told me what I'm trying to tell you and I didn't listen, just as you aren't listening now. I argued the same arguments, and I thought I was above all of their crap. I learned through pain, you might have to as well.


Yep. I read these posts and all I can think of is how sad it is. I usually know when to consider what someone is saying and not to brush it off. I also know myself pretty darn well. When it comes to having feelings for women, though, it's different, and I was pretty stupid at one point. I was similar to the bitter "nice guy" types, but I kind of caught myself before it got bad, as I could see how I ugly I could be. I just kept getting reeled back in because of the possibility of getting some kind of affection. I would get pissed off at her (because she basically used me, and she was in this f'd up relationship with my friend/her ex.. that she was still sleeping with.. even though he had a g/f) and then we would make up and before you know it I was doing favors for her. I was basically the only avenue left for her to get in touch with the ex/my friend. I was lonely and miserable and just wanted a little lovin', a little snugglin'. Of course, I was totally screwing myself over, making phone calls for this girl at 12 a.m. (to her ex/my friend.. territory you do not want to put yourself in). The level that I sunk to just for the possibility of some affection is frightening. We really are f---ed up animals. There is just a certain point when you are supposed to walk away. You don't harbor any resentment or anything. You don't become bitter about it. I stayed in too long. The day she blackmailed me was the day I hung up on her for good. Not long after I was able to look back and think "wow, what was that"? I can't imagine how I even did it. I didn't even really like her that much. I was just a lonely fool.


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## vicente (Nov 10, 2003)

I've been thinking of starting a thread like this for a while.

"Just do it" -- if we could, then we wouldn't have SA.

Men like me and PGVan who don't have the natural urges to make the moves on women should just adopt some cats rather than fool ourselves that some woman will want to make the first moves.


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## anomalous (Jun 12, 2004)

vicente said:


> "Just do it" -- if we could, then we wouldn't have SA.
> 
> Men like me and PGVan who don't have the natural urges to make the moves on women should just adopt some cats rather than fool ourselves that some woman will want to make the first moves.


Truth.

The lack of empathy and understanding on this subject from even the shyest women, such as my ex that I described in an earlier post, is pretty damning in terms of our chances.

The message is loud and clear: "man up." SA be damned.


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## TheGMan (Jun 10, 2004)

anomalous said:


> Truth.
> 
> The lack of empathy and understanding on this subject from even the shyest women, such as my ex that I described in an earlier post, is pretty damning in terms of our chances.
> 
> The message is loud and clear: "man up." SA be damned.


I think it's a lot more complicated than that. Yes, at a certain point certain things require an action. Taking that action at some point comes down to "just doing it," but that doesn't mean there isn't a process.. or methods to improve reactions in that situation.

I do agree though, from my experience, that even girls with s.a. or shyness lack understanding and this tends to be something that falls on the male.


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

*shame*

You dont get it do you, you dont want to be just friends??? an she knows that. Your not on HER mind 24.7 like she is yours. You will make yourself ill , let it go jesus, your pushing her futher away than she is now, an thats about 2,000,000 mile at the moment. Your loved up with a dream, dont turn it into a nightmare.:bash


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

When anxiety's very severe, I know from experience it's impossible to "just do it". It took years to be ready to take any initiative. Even now I barely know what the heck I'm doing, and this is in general not just romance. I don't know when someone's expecting a response if they're not explicit, I can't read what they'd like me to do so end up doing nothing, and I've no idea what they're thinking of me. Half the time I can't tell if someone likes or loathes me.

With my first romantic encounter, I couldn't speak let alone make a move. We knew each other months and it didn't change. When moves were made on me it was OK; I just couldn't initiate them. It was like my body had been set in concrete. One time, we were in the library and saying bye. I managed to initiate a gesture (a touch on the arm), but it never reached the arm because my timing was so off I reached out to find empty space. Some young woman witnessed it and gave me a funny look. It must have looked so awkward.



lonelygirl88 said:


> The bottom line is that if someone is romantically attracted to you, then they won't want to be "just friends."
> 
> [...]
> 
> From my personal experience, telling a guy that I want to "just be friends" is a way of softening the blow. Sure, if there is stress in my life that just makes an easier thing to put the blame on. But if I *really* wanted to date them, then even in a time of need, actually especially in a time of need, I would want to date them. Or at least kiss them or do something romantic with them.


I think this is most likely the case: the girl was using the circumstances as an excuse for lacking attraction. People do it all the time. If you really like someone, it's unlikely such a situation would stop you pursuing something with them. The main exceptions would be someone who has issues with romance or sex, or who really does have complicated circumstances (e.g. lives the other side of the world or has kids), or who was too recently involved with someone else and not over it.



BeNice said:


> We really are f---ed up animals.


True.


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## emptybottle2 (Jan 18, 2009)

You know that thing that girls do when they say they're not interested in dating anyone right now and then like 2-3 weeks later, they're seeing a new guy? You may have to deal with this, and it will be painful.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

She lives with her grandparents and she is now essentially her grandfather's live-in nurse. She cannot leave the house much at all because she has to give him needles when he needs it. She's not going to randomly pop up dating another guy soon.



foxy said:


> You dont get it do you, you dont want to be just friends??? an she knows that. Your not on HER mind 24.7 like she is yours. You will make yourself ill , let it go jesus, your pushing her futher away than she is now, an thats about 2,000,000 mile at the moment. Your loved up with a dream, dont turn it into a nightmare.:bash


I had a nice 2-hour conversation with her last night. Yeah, I'm REALLY pushing her away.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 19, 2004)

Woah woah woah, HOW did I miss this thread?

First off, way to go PG. It sounds like you're definitely trying to tackle your anxiety and took some pretty concrete steps with getting to know this girl and working up to physical contact.

I didn't read all the novel long responses, but I gather you haven't got much dude-love in this thread. I think sending that text to her took a lot of courage, and was a good way to let her know what you were thinking without risking awkwardness if it wasn't completely reciprocated. 

Her situation sounds difficult, and I can understand why she wouldn't be able to handle a new relationship right now. There IS the chance, like mentioned above, that she was just politely turning you down and using a line, but you seem to know her well enough and trust her enough to feel confident that wasn't what happened, so I'm glad you have that certainty.

As to the staying friends thing, I don't think any of us can really advise you on that. It all depends on how the continuing contact with her makes you feel. I think it's really thoughtful you wouldn't want to abandon your friendship given the circumstances. When something around that changes, everything might need to be reevaluated then.

Gooood luuuuuck next time with the ladies. Some of us do initiate contact. And even if we don't, it sounds like you're on your way to being able to do it.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

Perfectionist said:


> I didn't read all the novel long responses, but I gather you haven't got much dude-love in this thread.


Here, and everywhere else seems to be giving me gender-based answers. All the guys figure it's the typical teenage-dating easy let-down and don't even want to hear the specifics of the situation because apparently it's just not possible for a girl to consider a life situation over a guy she would otherwise be willing to give a chance to.

The women I've talked to listen to those specifics and tell me to stick it out because if they were in her spot, they wouldn't want to start a new relationship either.

I acknowledge the possibility that in the long run, she might not want to be in a relationship with me. That said, I know that she is in a tough spot right now, and I know there is something about her that I cannot explain, that tells me I need to stick this out, even if it means that I'll likely walk through a personal hell along the way.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

PGVan said:


> Here, and everywhere else seems to be giving me gender-based answers. All the guys figure it's the typical teenage-dating easy let-down and don't even want to hear the specifics of the situation because apparently it's just not possible for a girl to consider a life situation over a guy she would otherwise be willing to give a chance to.
> 
> The women I've talked to listen to those specifics and tell me to stick it out because if they were in her spot, they wouldn't want to start a new relationship either.
> 
> I acknowledge the possibility that in the long run, she might not want to be in a relationship with me. That said, I know that she is in a tough spot right now, and I know there is something about her that I cannot explain, that tells me I need to stick this out, even if it means that I'll likely walk through a personal hell along the way.


As long as you are making an informed decision, go for it. Hope it works out.


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## Black_Widow (May 23, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear about that Joinmartin. I once had a so called best friend who started to get into the habit of treating people like that. Guys as well as her friends. She also had her mixed up issues. I felt sorry for her in alot of ways, but at the same time after 6 years or so of putting up with the same (please excuse my language) crap from her, as well as observing how she kept messing with the feelings of a friend of mine (a male friend who used to be her partner years back) though she's married I decided to cut her off pretty much for good back in early 2010. It was hard. I still feel down about it from time to time, and miss old times. But at the end of it, sometimes you have to put your own feelings and well being first. Especially in those kind of cases when others start to see your support and sympathy as a reason to start taking advantage of people. In which case, they're not really any kind of friend to you anymore (imo anyways).


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

PGVan said:


> Here, and everywhere else seems to be giving me gender-based answers. All the guys figure it's the typical teenage-dating easy let-down and don't even want to hear the specifics of the situation because apparently it's just not possible for a girl to consider a life situation over a guy she would otherwise be willing to give a chance to.


Ok dude, I've probably been pushy with my posts, but they're honest, and they're ****ing personal. I only wanted to help and try to prevent you from getting your spirit completely crushed if things turn ugly (which they very likely may). You have great intentions, and I did to, but great intentions don't forgive complete ignorance of reality and nature. To be frank, you haven't gone through this crap, and it's pretty obvious your beliefs are not based on experience, unlike ours, Yet you presume to dismiss and insult our experiences just because they aren't congruent with your idealized view of her.

What the hell is the typical teenage-dating situation anyway? What do you know of romantic relationships? I have been really trying hard to keep that down, but even if you disagree (which is fine), your complete lack of appreciation for the time we've spent trying to help you, when it was you who asked for our help, is really getting to me. If you want a sympathy thread then that's what you make, but don't make a thread asking for advice, and then insult what people have to give, especially when we've been through this same crap before. Again, I can't emphasize it enough, don't ask for advice when the only thing you actually want to hear is people who agree with your own view.



PGVan said:


> The women I've talked to listen to those specifics and tell me to stick it out because if they were in her spot, they wouldn't want to start a new relationship either.


 Women, from my experience, also make relationships work regardless of circumstance, if they're really attracted, they make it work. Girls seemingly have no time for anything (18 credits of hard biochem classes, research, very active officer positions in clubs, two jobs), and have said themselves that they couldn't have a relationship, make it work when they have a man they like. I'll believe you that they think they wouldn't want a relationship, but that doesn't mean anything.

In any case, nobody is saying that she's going to get a BF right now, but give it a few months, a year, even more. You stick with her through all that, you're her best friend. Any day now, she'll see how awesome you are, but she never does. Just another day, another week, another month, she'll see. But then, she gets that BF. And when that day comes, you'll be dependent on your relationship with her and the hope that she'll love you like you like her. That day, when your heart is ripped out of your chest, you'll hate her. You'll then have to decide whether you are willing to be her friend through her betrayal, whether you'll fall further into the delusion that one day she'll see how great you are. Hey, maybe then they break up, you'll be flying, here's your chance, and she'll be as close to you as ever. Then comes another BF, and if you think it hurts less you're wrong. And so on, and so on.



PGVan said:


> I acknowledge the possibility that in the long run, she might not want to be in a relationship with me. That said, I know that she is in a tough spot right now, and I know there is something about her that I cannot explain, that tells me I need to stick this out, even if it means that I'll likely walk through a personal hell along the way.


Fair enough man, good luck. If you want to go this route, just be careful about yourself, and what you let the situation do to you. Try to be realistic.


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## Johnny_Genome (Nov 11, 2003)

PGVan said:


> Here, and everywhere else seems to be giving me gender-based answers. All the guys figure it's the typical teenage-dating easy let-down and don't even want to hear the specifics of the situation because apparently it's just not possible for a girl to consider a life situation over a guy she would otherwise be willing to give a chance to.
> 
> The women I've talked to listen to those specifics and tell me to stick it out because if they were in her spot, they wouldn't want to start a new relationship either.
> 
> I acknowledge the possibility that in the long run, she might not want to be in a relationship with me. That said, I know that she is in a tough spot right now, and I know there is something about her that I cannot explain, that tells me I need to stick this out, even if it means that I'll likely walk through a personal hell along the way.


I think these types of friendships are fine as long as they don't cause too much mental anguish. I'm in one of these friendships. What happened in my case, was the relationship became imbalanced. It started out nicely; we would talk and hang out almost everyday as she was new to town, didn't know anyone / was looking for things to do. I was there for her whenever she needed me; dropped everything for her, introduced her to other people. Slowly she began getting attention from other guys. I had no attention from other girls. Suddenly, she was more important to me, than I was to her. Eventually this devolved to today, where I hardly hear from her, except when she needs something.

Honestly, it was all a good learning experience for me, and we need these experiences to grow.


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

I she wants you, she will come to you, you have no reason to aproach her when she has told you your not her type, an she may have said stay friends but she means butt out. IN the end you will bug her that much she will have to say something that will distroy you. For you own sake let it go


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

foxy said:


> I she wants you, she will come to you, you have no reason to aproach her when she has told you your not her type, an she may have said stay friends but she means butt out. IN the end you will bug her that much she will have to say something that will distroy you. For you own sake let it go


You must have one hell of a crystal ball.

She didn't tell me I'm not her type. She didn't mean "butt out" because there has been no change to how often we're talking.


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

> Women, from my experience, also make relationships work regardless of circumstance, if they're really attracted, they make it work. Girls seemingly have no time for anything (18 credits of hard biochem classes, research, very active officer positions in clubs, two jobs), and have said themselves that they couldn't have a relationship, make it work when they have a man they like. I'll believe you that they think they wouldn't want a relationship, but that doesn't mean anything.


I'm leaning towards this, but you never know. It IS a tricky situation. I'm pulling for you man.

My ex went through a similar situation with her grandpa and used that as an excuse to take a break from things. She slept with 3 diff dudes that week and got into a relationship with someone 2 weeks later. She called me excited about it as if she thought I wouldn't be hurt... Not the exact same situation, but it goes to show people don't necessary mean what they say...


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm not saying screw this woman, but don't put all your chips into it. It's kinda hard with SA because it seems your options are limited, but you let her decision make or break you. Thats too big a risk. Good luck and cheers.


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## Joline (Jan 23, 2011)

odd_one_out said:


> Start very small. For instance, if it's cold you can touch her hand to test its temperature while saying what you're doing. That way you have a reason other than intimacy to initiate a touch, which might be easier. If she reacts OK, hold it in yours to warm it up.


If a guy did this to me, after 3rd date I would freak out. Also, it would be obvious that he did it, NOT to check if I am cold. I would definitely not like that...

I would just advise asking her a plain question : "May I hug you?". Me and my ex boyfriend used that a lot in the begining and it worked perfectly.
Before I was extremely shy, and I could not have imagined hugging a man, or that he would touch me, but we went through this very smoothly. It was also incredibly cute and honest.

Therefore, if I were you, I would not have tried any tricks, or any 'accidental touching', but I would just ask her outright, whether I can hug her.


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## odd_one_out (Aug 22, 2006)

> If a guy did this to me, after 3rd date I would freak out. Also, it would be obvious that he did it, NOT to check if I am cold. I would definitely not like that...


Why "after 3rd date"? I haven't tried it but know others who've done it with success. Maybe I will try it to see the reaction.  It could be better in action than comes across in description.


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## InLoveWithaShyGuy (Dec 18, 2010)

Well, this is going to be a major heartbreak for you friend if she doesn't return your feelings. I can't help but think this will not end well!

You didn't sweep her off her feet, that's obvious to me in reading all these posts.

She is using you (in a sense) as a shoulder to cry on, someone to chat with, unload on, etc. but you have been put in the nice guy/he's a friend category and you need to accept that.

If she really wanted you she would go for it in a BIG WAY nothing would stop her, believe me i know i wouldn't let a man's shyness or inability to show me how he feels stop me..i'd keep plugging away, as i do 

All women prefer a man to be just that - a man - to be strong, to show her he wants her, stand up and take charge of the situation and to make her feel like a women, special and desired and that will never change so that you need to accept as well.

And please don't kid yourself, she will date someone else eventually...being a nurse maid to someone doesn't mean she never sees anyone or talks to men.

Sadly, you will be in for a rude awakening, be careful and keep all your options opened, you need to move on i think.


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## Shrinking Violet (Oct 11, 2010)

I can't say that I agree with all of the posts arguing that you have to "act like a man" and "she's definitely brushing you off." While there is a problem with being a "nice guy" sometimes, it doesn't necessarily seem like the case here. I agree that the best relationships are built on friendship. I'm attracted to my boyfriend, but the reason I want a *relationship* with him is that he's so open and honest with me. I feel safe with him.

If you really like this girl, and you think there's a chance for a relationship later, go for it. All I would say is that you shouldn't wait forever without some indication that she wants what you want. Ideally, you would eventually talk to her about it. Ask her outright if she'd ever consider being in a relationship, and tell her that you care about her. If you aren't getting a good response, that is the time to start moving on.

For me, even though I really liked my boyfriend, I pushed him away at first. It was because I was shy, insecure about myself, unsure about what I wanted, etc. It got to the point where I completely rejected him because I was feeling so anxious about it all. What made me confess that I did want a relationship was when (I thought) he got a new girlfriend.

Pursue it if you think you have a chance. You're not being a pushover by waiting and remaining friends with her. However, if she moves on, you should too. But try to tell her your feelings at some point. She may not even realize that you feel so strongly.


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## InLoveWithaShyGuy (Dec 18, 2010)

So what happened?


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## ruxul (Oct 22, 2008)

PGVan said:


> You must have one hell of a crystal ball.
> 
> She didn't tell me I'm not her type. She didn't mean "butt out" because there has been no change to how often we're talking.


Whats the worst that could happen with sticking it out? Things might work out. My good friend (whose 33) recently got married to a girl (whose really attractive and 25). I lived with both of them when they were dating and she told me she thought he was a complete weirdo stalker for months but he didnt let up and pursued her relentlessly. She eventually gave in and went on a couple dates with him. Even then she thought he was weird at first, but he slowly grew on her til they started dating seriously. He was even married at the time (to a very unattractive, mean woman - a generally bad person imo - he's been with maybe 3-4 girls in his life). Even after he told her that, they continued seeing each other. He divorced his wife, they dated a few years and are now married (and extremely happy at that). They truly love each other more than any other couple I know and go together really well even though they're different in a lot of ways.

The point of my story being, he stuck it out despite harsh rejection and in the end, he's in a way better situation than he could ever imagine. I say stick it out. Things may not work out but you'll never know if you dont go for it. Try to not to live without regrets and good luck


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

Wow. Such a charged thread and no passive-aggressive tagging of it?


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## Jessie203 (Feb 20, 2008)

Ah yes, the first move... lmao

I often wind up having to do it unless I'm with someone really aggressive. I don't get too nervous bc I rationalize it as, he wants to, I sure as hell want to - So why naaaaattttttt!!!  hahaha. That's my advice. Idk if it's helpful but yeah after waiting and cuddling for so long you just gotta say screw this shy bs.. let's go! lol


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## seafolly (Jun 17, 2010)

Cripes this is active. Now, I didn't read every post (it's late!) but did it occur to anyone that she may be shy too? That it might not have anything to do with the lack of spark but plain old common shyness? There are tons of reasons why she may not have initiated that are of no fault of yours. 

Don't give yourself deadlines. Don't panic. You're doing great by doing the best that you can. 

Here are two personal experiences - my first date (ever) involved the guy doing that whole "watch a movie in the basement thing" and followed it with, "So...wanna make out?" I told him I had to go and escorted myself out. That was nine years ago and he's still ignoring me, haha. 

A few months later I met another guy. Now, at that point I did have a generalized anxiety diagnosis but I was pretty darn normal to those who didn't know me very well. The guy sensed I was nervous and didn't push it. He'd lean in, a silent question, and I'd step back without really thinking about it. I was very attracted to him but I was terrified at the same time. I'd never kissed a guy before and for whatever reason that was a big deal. Plus, well, hey, anxiety issues. TWO MONTHS later he managed to catch me completely off guard and just swooped on in there. The kiss was pretty gross actually and lasted way too long. Nothing magical about it. But the fact that he waited, completely respecting my unspoken fears and just read me so well, well that meant a lot to say the least. 

My point is you don't have to do these things by a certain number of dates. You can read the chemistry, let it happen naturally. At some point your hormones are likely to kick your anxiety issues to the curb if even for a moment.


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

*doomed*

Your shy , an crazy in love with a girl who dont want you. Hanging around an bugging her wont make her want you. lets be friends means I DONT WANT YOU :tiptoe Jesus man let it go an get a life. I had a friend who married a girl he didnt love, he said she aint much good at sex, but she is a good cook an wash,s my cloth,s an looks after me like a king. I said, so does my mother but i dont want to marry her. This is sort of the same,, an you let her. She may like you but she will never love you, WHY because your a doormat she wipes her feet on , an you let her:rain:rain:rain


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## BetaBoy90 (Jan 5, 2010)

foxy said:


> Your shy , an crazy in love with a girl who dont want you. Hanging around an bugging her wont make her want you. lets be friends means I DONT WANT YOU :tiptoe Jesus man let it go an get a life. I had a friend who married a girl he didnt love, he said she aint much good at sex, but she is a good cook an wash,s my cloth,s an looks after me like a king. I said, so does my mother but i dont want to marry her. This is sort of the same,, an you let her. She may like you but she will never love you, WHY because your a doormat she wipes her feet on , an you let her:rain:rain:rain


^
What it said! Well said thing


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## seafolly (Jun 17, 2010)

Ohhh. Crap. I had to go all the way back to page 2 to figure out what the heck was going on - I missed the bit where she shut the door.  

There's nothing wrong with hoping that she'll see you in a different light someday. Just make sure that you don't zero in on her and dwell on the issue. Being her friend is a noble thing to do and heck it could work out in the end, it sounds like she has a lot on her plate. Just be sure it's not hurting you to be involved without being in the emotional place you want to be (with her).


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## Karsten (Apr 3, 2007)

A mix of what foxy and seafolly said.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

foxy said:


> Your shy , an crazy in love with a girl who dont want you. Hanging around an bugging her wont make her want you. lets be friends means I DONT WANT YOU :tiptoe Jesus man let it go an get a life. I had a friend who married a girl he didnt love, he said she aint much good at sex, but she is a good cook an wash,s my cloth,s an looks after me like a king. I said, so does my mother but i dont want to marry her. This is sort of the same,, an you let her. She may like you but she will never love you, WHY because your a doormat she wipes her feet on , an you let her:rain:rain:rain


Screw off. Why do you have to be so condescending, especially about something you clearly have no idea about? Where do you get the comparison with your friend? Were you drunk as you typed this? I wasn't crazy in love with her, I had strong feelings for her. There is a difference. Some of the girls here have said it's not a bad idea to stick it out, and I take their opinions more seriously than the guys who seem to think there are some hard-line rules and facts with a phrase like "lets stay friends right now".

We were talking as normal for the last couple weeks, and yes there was a possibility that something could have happened after she deals with her issues, until I shut that down. That's right, I shut that down and her is why...

I was having a conversation with a mutual friend the other night, whom I've known for a while and trust. After some prodding on my part about what she meant about her being a "different girl", I found out that probably 90% of what she told me about things that had gone on in her life in recent years was either a "stretched story" or a complete lie. The girl has issues with being a compulsive liar, even with her closest friends. We kind of ganged up on her until she admitted that she lies all the time due to various issues she has.

The lying did it for me as far as a relationship goes. If there are two things I CANNOT handle, they are dishonest and being a drama queen. She seems to be both when it comes to relationships. We had a very long and candid conversation where she came clean with some of her issues and I told her I would be there to help her if she needs it, but as a friend and nothing more. We seem to be on good terms with that, but I have to remain skeptical about anything she tells me now.

My problem now isn't physical contact anymore. It's when the hell will I be able to trust another woman?


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## foxy (Jul 3, 2010)

*Drama queen*

I think there are 2 drama queens in this thread. Do you make it up as you go along. You add more an more every post , from being a girl with loads of issuies , she now acussed of compulsive lying you say. I think you should wait a little longer before entering the minefield of women. :heart:fall


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## seafolly (Jun 17, 2010)

Not all of us lie, is how you learn to trust again.  I've known a few people (girls and guys) to make more of situations than was necessary and yup, it's tiring. I'm just relieved you learned this now and not after investing more of yourself in the relationship. 

The kneejerk reaction after getting hurt is to use the faults of that one person and let it tarnish the entire gender. That will pass.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

foxy said:


> I think there are 2 drama queens in this thread. Do you make it up as you go along. You add more an more every post , from being a girl with loads of issuies , she now acussed of compulsive lying you say. I think you should wait a little longer before entering the minefield of women. :heart:fall


She's not accused of compulsive lying, it's fact. When you call her on a few specifics and she admits it, how does that make ME the drama queen? Of course I add more with every post. Its turned into a bloody timeline of ongoing events!


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

PGVan said:


> Screw off. Why do you have to be so condescending, especially about something you clearly have no idea about? Where do you get the comparison with your friend? Were you drunk as you typed this? I wasn't crazy in love with her, I had strong feelings for her. There is a difference. Some of the girls here have said it's not a bad idea to stick it out, and I take their opinions more seriously than the guys who seem to think there are some hard-line rules and facts with a phrase like "lets stay friends right now".
> 
> We were talking as normal for the last couple weeks, and yes there was a possibility that something could have happened after she deals with her issues, until I shut that down. That's right, I shut that down and her is why...
> 
> ...


Stop it.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

VanDamMan said:


> Stop it.


Why should he stop it?

Granted, this woman he talks of seems somewhat "interesting" to say the least and contact with her might not be in his best interests. But his best interests are exactly that. HIS. We have no authority to tell him to do anything. Only to advise.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

I won't stop it. She came out with some issues that as somebody who has dealt with anxiety, depression and other things, I understand. If she wants help and asks for it as a friend, I would be a jackass to ignore her...but because of the nature of her lying about so many things, the feelings of wanting something more are pretty much gone.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

PGVan said:


> I won't stop it. She came out with some issues that as somebody who has dealt with anxiety, depression and other things, I understand. If she wants help and asks for it as a friend, I would be a jackass to ignore her...but because of the nature of her lying about so many things, the feelings of wanting something more are pretty much gone.


I don't believe you want to be just friends. At some level I think that you believe you might be able to "cure" this lady enough that she might be dating material. Maybe you could be the "hero" that snaps her out of her neurosis and she would be grateful.

Its a dead-end homeboy.


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## lonelyjew (Jan 20, 2010)

VanDamMan said:


> I don't believe you want to be just friends. At some level I think that you believe you might be able to "cure" this lady enough that she might be dating material. Maybe you could be the "hero" that snaps her out of her neurosis and she would be grateful.
> 
> Its a dead-end homeboy.


Why are you still bothering with him VanDam? Obviously He knows more than everyone who's been through the same crap, he's above all of it, and smarter than all of us, not to mention he understands relationships better than us. You have to realize that when he said this:



PGVan said:


> I really like this girl and any advice on how to initiate the slightest bit of physical contact would be greatly appreciated.


He actually meant to say:



PGVan said:


> I really like this girl and any advice on how to initiate the slightest bit of physical contact would be greatly appreciated So long as that advice is completely in line with what I already know to be fact. Otherwise, any advice will be ignored and put in the most misconstrued, negative, light possible


I could go on and post about a friend I have who befriends cute girls because "they're so awesome" and not at all because he is attracted to them, but I won't bother. The op clearly knows everything he needs, and that's that he knows more in his ignorance than all of us do from our experience.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

lonelyjew said:


> Why are you still bothering with him VanDam?


Because it was a different facet than the original situation. Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything.

I try not to repeat myself regarding the same subject.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

VanDamMan said:


> I don't believe you want to be just friends. At some level I think that you believe you might be able to "cure" this lady enough that she might be dating material. Maybe you could be the "hero" that snaps her out of her neurosis and she would be grateful.
> 
> Its a dead-end homeboy.


So you're putting words into my mouth and telling me what I'm thinking now.

Nice.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

PGVan said:


> So you're putting words into my mouth and telling me what I'm thinking now.
> 
> Nice.


if you say you are over her and looking for other women, I'll believe you.

But if you are having trouble pulling the trigger, it usually indicates you have limited options. And one has limited options and still chooses to associate with an unhealthy ex, it often means they haven't gotten over him/her.

If its not true, then good for you.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

First of all, she's not an "ex". We went on a few dates after getting to know each other (or at least I thought) for a few months online. 

Secondly, one of my recent discoveries is that she smokes...not a lot, but she still smokes, and that's a deal-breaker for me. Had I known that to start (IE: had she not stated on her dating profile that she is a non-smoker), I'd have never dated her in the first place. 

I have a sense that underneath her bull****, she is a good person who has made mistakes in her life and is paying for them now. As somebody who knows what depression is all about, I would be a bad person to not make myself available to be a friend.


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## InLoveWithaShyGuy (Dec 18, 2010)

VanDamMan said:


> I don't believe you want to be just friends. At some level *I think that you believe you might be able to "cure" this lady enough that she might be dating material.* Maybe you could be the "hero" that snaps her out of her neurosis and she would be grateful.
> 
> Its a dead-end homeboy.


I have to say i was thinking the same exact thing:umyou definitley do not attract the right type of women, at least not this time. Hopefully you have learned something here and with this experience about how women are sometimes. Obviously there were reasons she didn't want a relationship (with you or anyone) nor does she have the ability to be in one and maybe she never will be?

Be glad you dodged this bullet, i'd keep my distance from this girl and move on for good.


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## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

PGVan said:


> First of all, she's not an "ex". We went on a few dates after getting to know each other (or at least I thought) for a few months online.
> 
> Secondly, one of my recent discoveries is that she smokes...not a lot, but she still smokes, and that's a deal-breaker for me. Had I known that to start (IE: had she not stated on her dating profile that she is a non-smoker), I'd have never dated her in the first place.
> 
> I have a sense that underneath her bull****, she is a good person who has made mistakes in her life and is paying for them now. As somebody who knows what depression is all about, I would be a bad person to not make myself available to be a friend.


So do you or do you not hold hope that she can transform into some you can acceptably date?

BTW I'm on your side.


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## PGVan (May 22, 2004)

I'm not holding out for anything. If something happens with her a long way down the road, it will happen cautiously on my part. If something happens with me and somebody else in the meantime, that's fine too. 

With this girl though, we had another long conversation tonight. We were honest about a lot of our issues. She now knows about the depths of my anxiety, my virginity and a few other things. We've agreed to spend some time together just as friends to see if we can help each other through our anxieties and depression without the pressures of a potential relationship on the cards. 

Again, I do have the sense that underneath everything, she is a good person. I believe that you have to experience most things to fully understand them or have a sense for it, depression and anxiety being among those things. I sense that she's in a deep rut too. I'm hoping this turns into a blessing in disguise where she can end up being the friend whom I can talk to about anything... which is a friend I've never had before.


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## heroin (Dec 10, 2010)

PGVan said:


> If something happens with her a long way down the road....


Won't. Ever.


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## Johnny_Genome (Nov 11, 2003)

I think there is a lot of cynicism on here about staying friends with girls like these, which is understandable. But, just because someone does not 'like' you is not reason enough to throw away a friendship in my opinion. As long as you are not being blatantly taken advantage of, then I don't see a problem with it.

I don't make friends very easy, and rarely with females, so tossing away friends doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If women were beating down my door, then yes, I would have to figure out whom I wanted to spend my time with. I have a female friend similar to the OP's girl, except she's not into lying. She gave me all the signs she was into me, and then basically at some point pulled away when she didn't need me anymore.

But the thing is, I enjoy spending time with her when we do get together, and I can talk to her about things I would never talk to my guy friends with. While yes, it can be frustrating when someone doesn't see you in the same way, you can learn to adapt in time.

It's not an either or situation, the OP can remain friends with her and keep himself open to other potential girls.


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