# Would you dump a guy if you found out he had been with a prostitute?



## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

I mean before you got together. I think it would be 100% yes if he was getting it from sex workers on the side while he was dating you. But, heck I can out that in the poll too.


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

In the past a couple times would be okay. If he had been seeing hookers regularly though....I'd imagine his idea of sex would not be the best.


----------



## Phalene (Feb 15, 2013)

Tricky question.

If it happened only once, to get rid of some hang ups about sex, OK. It wouldn't make me happy of course, but it would be OK.

Otherwise, no. I would rather not know, to be honest.


----------



## Nekomata (Feb 3, 2012)

Probably not. What he chooses to do before me is his call, so long as he doesn't go around spreading anything nasty x_x


----------



## Introspect (Aug 9, 2013)

i'm genuinely surprised how much acceptance there is about this.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Probably. While I personally don't have anything against sex workers, I'd question a man's character, his ideologies and attitude toward women if he's paid for sex.


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

How would she or he find out that you frequent or seen hookers?


----------



## Spungo (Jul 30, 2012)

Introspect said:


> i'm genuinely surprised how much acceptance there is about this.


Depends on the definition of prostitute. 45 year old business guy marrying a 20 year old girl: she could be called a prostitute because she's obviously interested in money. Conversely, marriages in the past often involved the man being much older than the woman (or women), so one could argue that it's "traditional marriage" rather than prostitution. There are also different classes of prostitutes. Street walkers on meth are the lowest class, then bar/club hookers, then massage parlor hookers, then call girls in the phone book, and then trophy wife is at the top. I would look down on someone who is brutal enough to hire a street hooker, but I don't look down on Donald Trump for marrying a top shelf hooker.


----------



## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Don't tell a feminist if you are dating one if you have been with an escort in the past, or better yet, just don't date feminists.


----------



## Winternight13 (May 22, 2012)

*I would if I found out, and if I knew before getting together with him or an attempt to even try then I would decline being with that type of person cause he would sound like a person who would probably go out and cheat and look for prostitutes again easily, just cause prostitutes so called 'job' is to have sex with random people for money so if they knew he had a girlfriend, they wouldn't care as long as they get money for 'doing what they do'. I would have major trust issues with him, but I don't have to worry bout that situation cause I already have a boyfriend I love and I know he isn't like that.*


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

I'm interested to see how much the results of this survey vary according to which country the person responding is from, and the legal status of sex work in that country.


----------



## sleepforeverandever (Mar 18, 2013)

Honestly I would lose a bit of respect for him and probably tease him about it but I wouldn't dump him because of it.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Noca said:


> Don't tell a feminist if you are dating one if you have been with an escort in the past, *or better yet, just don't date feminists.*


:yes

Especially if you see them as the others.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm not a feminist but I hate people on this forum's attitude to them, it continues to piss me off. I feel like they are the only group of people where it's OK to class them all as exactly the same, when really there are many varying opinions on various issues among feminists.

But back _on topic_ yes I would date a guy who'd been with a prostitute in the past probably. If it was recently I'd be worried about std's, if it was all safe and ask him to get checked out (I'd do the same if we were in opposite positions.)

If he'd been seeing a prostitute while dating me without telling me, obviously communication had completely failed in our relationship, so I'd have to question if I'd want to continue seeing him.

I'm pretty sure brothels and such are illegal in the UK, if I moved to somewhere where it was legalised where they'd have certain standards, and it would be less likely to be dodgy, then I'd be a little more lax maybe.

It's a minefield here in general look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom


----------



## Farideh (Nov 13, 2011)

that shouldn't even be questioned.


----------



## mezzoforte (May 16, 2010)

It would be a turn off thinking about how he's slept with a woman who has slept with hundreds of guys. But if I really loved him, I wouldn't dump him because of it. It depends on how long I've known him and how much I care about him. I'd definitely make him get tested though.


----------



## SnowFlakesFire (Aug 23, 2012)

Yes.


----------



## Farideh (Nov 13, 2011)

scarpia said:


>


Stupid


----------



## Farideh (Nov 13, 2011)

scarpia said:


>


Your comment... not you but now, I changed my mind.


----------



## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> Probably. While I personally don't have anything against sex workers, I'd question a man's character, his ideologies and attitude toward women if he's paid for sex.


Judging someone based on their past sexual history? Outrageous!


----------



## coffeeandflowers (Mar 2, 2013)

I don't know. I would rather him not have been with a prostitute of course, but if I would dump him for it? I don't know. It depends on the situation, like everything else.


----------



## awkwardsilent (Jun 14, 2012)

It depends on how much I like them.

If in every other way he was my dream guy, then, "No" (as long as its not while he is with me). 

If he is a nice guy that I like, and is otherwise attractive, I can probably get past it. Then "Only if it was over a year ago". 

If its a guy I'm not attracted to but trying really hard to "give a chance to" then... that would probably tip the scales in the "See you later" direction even more.


----------



## TheDarkGuardian (Jun 1, 2013)

What about males dumping females that have been with gigolos?


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

arnie said:


> Judging someone based on their past sexual history? Outrageous!


I'm not judging him for having sex. I'm weary of him because it was a transaction.


----------



## TheDarkGuardian (Jun 1, 2013)

AllToAll said:


> I'm not judging him for having sex. I'm weary of him because it was a transaction.


Dating = spending time, effort and money on another person and they in return do the same - isn't that a transaction in itself?


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

TheDarkGuardian said:


> Dating = spending time, effort and money on another person and they in return do the same - isn't that a transaction in itself?


Spending money for a prostitute isn't the same as paying lunch for a girl you like. Not to mention I don't usually accept purchases from other people, so if that's your line of thought it doesn't actually apply to me. The spending is mutual, not one-sided when it comes to dating.


----------



## Spungo (Jul 30, 2012)

TheDarkGuardian said:


> What about males dumping females that have been with gigolos?


A woman would need to be horrendously ugly if she needs to pay money for sex.


----------



## alienbird (Apr 9, 2010)

Yes, I would definitely dump him. :yes No question about it.


----------



## TheDarkGuardian (Jun 1, 2013)

AllToAll said:


> Spending money for a prostitute isn't the same as paying lunch for a girl you like. Not to mention I don't usually accept purchases from other people, so if that's your line of thought it doesn't actually apply to me. The spending is mutual, not one-sided when it comes to dating.


Sex for money and money for sex is a mutual transaction in itself though? One party offers money, the other offers sex? A mutual exchange?

Are you more weary of the fact that the guy decided to pay for sex instead of wait it out from a relationship that may or may not even come to fruition? (especially if he has SA or is that hideous no girl wants to touch him?)

You're free to have your beliefs but I'm just sharing mine and I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with fulfilling your sexual desires - paid or not. I just think it's somewhat overly righteous to dump someone based on their *PREVIOUS* sexual encounters. Not everyone's perfect.


----------



## x Faceless x (Mar 13, 2011)

I wouldn't be happy about it, but I don't think it would be enough for me to dump him. He'd have to have a different mindset on those type of activities now though.


----------



## AmandaMarie87 (Apr 24, 2013)

I wouldn't hold it against him if he slept with prostitutes before we started seeing each other, as long as he's been tested for STDs and he promised to change his ways. I believe in second chances. I would probably dump him however if he was with prostitutes while we were together.


----------



## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

I don't understand why people will suddenly alienate another person, who they have been in a relationship/known for some time just because they found out a previously unknown fact that occurred prior to them ever being together. Like how does this change anything? The person is still the same person you knew and cared about 5 minutes ago. It is so ridiculous and immature.

Did they murder or rape someone? Was there a victim? If not, get over yourself. Really.

It is like why be honest with these sorts of people if they can't accept you for who you are, regardless if what they are revealing to you is about seeing a hooker in the past or something entirely different. It doesn't change who you are and you are still the same person they knew 5 minutes ago.

They made a TV show about immature people in the dating world, dumping people over the dumbest things, it was called "Seinfeld".


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

TheDarkGuardian said:


> Sex for money and money for sex is a mutual transaction in itself though? One party offers money, the other offers sex? A mutual exchange?
> 
> Are you more weary of the fact that the guy decided to pay for sex instead of wait it out from a relationship that may or may not even come to fruition? (especially if he has SA or is that hideous no girl wants to touch him?)
> 
> You're free to have your beliefs but I'm just sharing mine and I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with fulfilling your sexual desires - paid or not. I just think it's somewhat overly righteous to dump someone based on their *PREVIOUS* sexual encounters. Not everyone's perfect.


You're free to share your opinion. I simply answered the question you asked me. I'm not against prostitution/sex work, but, in my opinion, a guy who's willing to pay for sex, excluding men with physical and severe mental disorders, don't really have an excuse that I value or respect for getting a prostitute. It would make me question their views on women and character. Simple as that.


----------



## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

I'd dump his ***.


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I only find it icky because that means the guy is okay if their partner doesn't really want to have sex with them. I can understand maybe if you haven't had sex in years but to do it on a regular basis..... It's odd how many guys don't seem to care if their partner is attracted to them and wants to have sex with them.


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

komorikun said:


> In the past a couple times would be okay. If he had been seeing hookers regularly though....I'd imagine his idea of sex would not be the best.


what if she taught him how to be good in bed though?


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Twelve Keyz said:


> what if she taught him how to be good in bed though?


I don't see how that is possible when most likely the prostitute won't kiss the guy and she is not doing it for pleasure. She's doing it for money. So she just wants to make the guy happy enough to come back again.


----------



## mezzoforte (May 16, 2010)

komorikun said:


> I only find it icky because that means the guy is okay if their partner doesn't really want to have sex with them. I can understand maybe if you haven't had sex in years but to do it on a regular basis..... It's odd how many guys don't seem to care if their partner is attracted to them and wants to have sex with them.


I think some guys actually believe prostitutes when they compliment their penis size, etc. Or think the girl is actually attracted because she's moaning.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

I wouldn't be dating a guy, so I wouldn't be in a position to dump one, but..
If it were a girl and she had a reason that I could accept, I wouldn't hold it against her.
Of course you have to know what your own limits are in what you can accept, but I think it's generally advisable to try to avoid too rigid principles.


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

Just out of interest, does anybody feel like sharing their views on what exactly about the practice/transaction makes them uncomfortable, or what it is they disapprove of?

I've seen a lot of people saying _"I wouldn't be happy about it, but..."_ without saying why it is they wouldn't be happy about it.

I'm not trying to have a go at anyone, just curious. It's a topic I've always found interesting.

(although I cant promise that others won't be as non-judgemental, of course :roll)

EDIT: Posted before seeing the above few posts, but others feel free to chime in.


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

mezzoforte said:


> I think some guys actually believe prostitutes when they compliment their penis size, etc. Or think the girl is actually attracted because she's moaning.


It's amazing how they are able to delude themselves like that.


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

komorikun said:


> I don't see how that is possible when most likely the prostitute won't kiss the guy and she is not doing it for pleasure. She's doing it for money. So she just wants to make the guy happy enough to come back again.


That's not always the case. Some of them actually try to enjoy their work even if they aren't attracted to their customers. And I've seen ads online for "lessons" before.


----------



## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

TicklemeRingo said:


> Just out of interest, does anybody feel like sharing their views on what exactly about the practice/transaction makes them uncomfortable, or what it is they disapprove of?
> 
> I've seen a lot of people saying _"I wouldn't be happy about it, but..."_ without saying why it is they wouldn't be happy about it.
> 
> ...


The fact that they are okay with having sex with someone who doesn't know them AND doesn't like them AND isn't doing it freely because of attraction but in exchange for money to feed themselves quite literally. Combined with the fact that many prostitutes are damaged people and by buying sex they are contributing to that whole corrupt, sleazy system. Also, it disgusts me on a purely personal and preferential level that they would settle for pretty much anything as long as it's alive. I would lose respect and desire for them at that point. I guess it shows they they have the tendency to take the easy way out and it would lead me to believe they would fall back on the easy option of just buying companionship at the first sign of trouble in our relationship. Of course there could be some wild exceptional case out there that would be justified but 99% of the time it's not that way. At the end of the day though, I am inherently just disgusted by that behavior and cannot force or convince myself not to be so it would be better for both parties to just not go through that process.


----------



## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

I met an escort just last night. Love <3.

She said, "It's so cute, I want to put a tiny little hat on it," and she moaned intensely when I wend down using the digits of my credit card.

Like I said, LOVE. What was her name?


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Twelve Keyz said:


> That's not always the case. Some of them actually try to enjoy their work even if they aren't attracted to their customers. And I've seen ads online for "lessons."


I didn't know we are assuming the guy has never been in a relationship before. And lack of experience is not something difficult to overcome. I kind of think that people that are bad in bed are just bad in bed. It's just the way they are.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

diamondheart89 said:


> The fact that they are okay with having sex with someone who doesn't know them AND doesn't like them AND isn't doing it freely because of attraction but in exchange for money to feed themselves quite literally. Combined with the fact that many prostitutes are damaged people and by buying sex they are contributing to that whole corrupt, sleazy system. Also, it disgusts me on a purely personal and preferential level that they would settle for pretty much anything as long as it's alive. I would lose respect and desire for them at that point. I guess it shows they they have the tendency to take the easy way out and it would lead me to believe they would fall back on the easy option of just buying companionship at the first sign of trouble in our relationship. Of course there could be some wild exceptional case out there that would be justified but 99% of the time it's not that way. At the end of the day though, I am inherently just disgusted by that behavior and cannot force or convince myself not to be so it would be better for both parties to just not go through that process.


What she said. 100%


----------



## alienbird (Apr 9, 2010)

diamondheart89 said:


> The fact that they are okay with having sex with someone who doesn't know them AND doesn't like them AND isn't doing it freely because of attraction but in exchange for money to feed themselves quite literally. Combined with the fact that many prostitutes are damaged people and by buying sex they are contributing to that whole corrupt, sleazy system. Also, it disgusts me on a purely personal and preferential level that they would settle for pretty much anything as long as it's alive.


These are my reasons as well.

Men who use prostitutes disgust me immensely, and I wouldn't want to date them.

:no


----------



## mezzoforte (May 16, 2010)

TicklemeRingo said:


> Just out of interest, does anybody feel like sharing their views on what exactly about the practice/transaction makes them uncomfortable, or what it is they disapprove of?
> 
> I've seen a lot of people saying _"I wouldn't be happy about it, but..."_ without saying why it is they wouldn't be happy about it.


It's mostly because I'd be terrified that he could have given me an STD, which is why I'd make him get tested immediately. :afr



diamondheart89 said:


> The fact that they are okay with having sex with someone who doesn't know them AND doesn't like them AND isn't doing it freely because of attraction but in exchange for money to feed themselves quite literally. Combined with the fact that many prostitutes are damaged people and by buying sex they are contributing to that whole corrupt, sleazy system. Also, it disgusts me on a purely personal and preferential level that they would settle for pretty much anything as long as it's alive.


Oh and that too. :b But it wouldn't bother me as much if it was something way back in their past and we were in love.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

diamondheart89 said:


> The fact that they are okay with having sex with someone who doesn't know them AND doesn't like them AND isn't doing it freely because of attraction but in exchange for money to feed themselves quite literally.


I'm sure people have sex with others for a variety of different reasons.
As long as both participate willingly and not our of desperation or need, I don't really see the problem with it, even if money is involved.



diamondheart89 said:


> Combined with the fact that many prostitutes are damaged people and by buying sex they are contributing to that whole corrupt, sleazy system.


There should be help for those that want out, but all studies and research I've seen suggests there are plenty of normal people doing it that painting them all as damaged or as being exploited isn't accurate.
If anything, many prostitutes are tired of being seen as victims and want rights to unionise and improve the conditions in their line of work, which there currently are obstacles in the way of doing, even though they pay taxes like any other business.



diamondheart89 said:


> I guess it shows they they have the tendency to take the easy way out and it would lead me to believe they would fall back on the easy option of just buying companionship at the first sign of trouble in our relationship.


Easy compared to what? What is the preferable way of attaining sex? Should they date someone else for it and only after putting in sufficient effort should they be allowed to have sex?
That doesn't really make sense to me.
It seems to say that there's something wrong with casual sex in general.


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

diamondheart89 said:


> The fact that they are okay with having sex with someone who doesn't know them AND doesn't like them AND isn't doing it freely because of attraction but in exchange for money to feed themselves quite literally. Combined with the fact that many prostitutes are damaged people and by buying sex they are contributing to that whole corrupt, sleazy system. Also, it disgusts me on a purely personal and preferential level that they would settle for pretty much anything as long as it's alive. I would lose respect and desire for them at that point. I guess it shows they they have the tendency to take the easy way out and it would lead me to believe they would fall back on the easy option of just buying companionship at the first sign of trouble in our relationship. Of course there could be some wild exceptional case out there that would be justified but 99% of the time it's not that way. At the end of the day though, I am inherently just disgusted by that behavior and cannot force or convince myself not to be so it would be better for both parties to just not go through that process.


Interesting viewpoint. Thanks for that.

I haven't used the services of a sex worker myself, but I have had the chance to listen to the views of some people who have worked in the sex industry here in Australia where it is legal and (somewhat) regulated (it varies, I gather). I can't speak for them of course, but I will say that they seem to have a different view of the relationship between worker and client than those expressed above.

I've always been puzzled that the idea of sex work seems to stir up quite a strong, visceral reaction in some people, and I'm interested in understanding it.


----------



## mezzoforte (May 16, 2010)

Milco said:


> Easy compared to what? *What is the preferable way of attaining sex?* Should they date someone else for it and only after putting in sufficient effort should they be allowed to have sex?
> That doesn't really make sense to me.
> It seems to say that there's something wrong with casual sex in general.


Probably finding someone who is actually attracted to you. Sex is supposed to be mutually enjoyable. When people have casual sex, both parties are attracted to eachother. Someone who pays for a prostitute usually does it because they cannot attain sex in any other way. I couldn't imagine someone who has options paying for sex, for example. I know it's hard to find girls to date or have sex with when you have SA, but if I was a socially anxious male who paid a prostitute, it would make me feel bad that I couldn't have sex with someone who actually wanted me. :\


----------



## Phalene (Feb 15, 2013)

TicklemeRingo said:


> Just out of interest, does anybody feel like sharing their views on what exactly about the practice/transaction makes them uncomfortable, or what it is they disapprove of?
> 
> I've seen a lot of people saying _"I wouldn't be happy about it, but..."_ without saying why it is they wouldn't be happy about it.
> 
> ...


I would accept it if he had severe hung ups about sexuality and only did it once for example. If it is a regular thing, no.

First, because I am borderline conservative when it comes to sex. I want to have it with someone I love, nothing else will do. And I couldn't be happy with someone who has the opposite attitude. That is why I am not interested by players, PUA guys and other Don Juans I can see at work. And second because I am a hippie who thinks money is an awful thing to mix with sex and relationships in general.

For me, seeking pleasure at all costs bothers me. And I know I go against my generation's motto and all but it is how I am wired  pleasure for pleasure holds no appeal to me. Pleasure within a relationship with someone valuable who shares my value must be worth it though.

Doesn't mean I looked down on people who have casual sex and all, but I like them to respect my views too.

EDIT oh and one last big detail because it bothers me to read so much BS:

- it is not because you are a woman that you are a feminist
- it is not because you are anti prostitution that you are a feminist 
- lots of anti feminists are anti prostitution as well, conservative women are rarely into the idea, just saying :roll


----------



## Alienated (Apr 17, 2013)

OR... finish the question with " How much have you paying ?"


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

@Phalene

^Thanks for that.


----------



## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

I just find it amazing that all of the feminist on here are so quick to dump someone because of something that happened in the past. 

How many threads have we had on here where the message gets pounded over and over that guys shouldn't care how many sexual partners a girl has had, that the past is the past and we shouldn't judge people based on their past sexual experiences only on what they say they want today. It's amazing how hypocritical people become when the genders are reversed.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

arnie said:


> I just find it amazing that all of the feminist on here are so quick to dump someone because of something that happened in the past.
> 
> How many threads have we had on here where the message gets pounded over and over that guys shouldn't care how many sexual partners a girl has had, that the past is the past and we shouldn't judge people based on their past sexual experiences only on what they say they want today. It's amazing how hypocritical people become when the genders are reversed.


All of this is considering he either decided to tell me or came up during a conversation. I won't go looking for that story.


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

A hypothetical question:

Say a person was to use the services of a (licenced, above board) physiotherapist or a massage therapist, either for physiotherapy or just pleasure.

When the therapist is massaging, say, their hamstring or back, and the client is getting physical pleasure (not sexual pleasure), should the client be concerned if the worker/professional is not getting pleasure from the experience?

Does it matter how much the physio or masseur cares about the client, on a personal level?

If the worker/professional would rather be at home on the couch instead of massaging some stranger's back, or would rather have another, better paying job but does this job because the circumstances suit them and they want the pay - is the client guilty of something unethical for still using their services?

^It seems this sort of thing is regarded as ethically ok. Yet once the masseur's hands reach a certain part of the body, that seems to cross a line for many people. (Edit- By "many people" I'm referring to people other than the client and worker who would judge that encounter negatively) Once the pleasure that is given by the worker and received by the client turns from purely physical to sexual, that seems to upset a lot of people and I'm curious about the reasons for that?

Is that line arbitrary?

Could it have something to do with how we view sex? (by we, I mean society in general)

What is it about sexual pleasure that changes the equation for people from one of a mutually agreed upon transaction between consenting adults, to one of unethical exploitation?

(I'm certainly not suggesting there aren't very complex ethical questions surrounding sex work, quite the opposite, just exploring one avenue of thought)


----------



## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> All of this is considering he either decided to tell me or came up during a conversation. I won't go looking for that story.


That's an amazingly fine line you're walking.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

mezzoforte said:


> Probably finding someone who is actually attracted to you. Sex is supposed to be mutually enjoyable. When people have casual sex, both parties are attracted to eachother.


People have sex for all sorts of reasons - not just because they are attracted to one another and want to share themselves with the other person in some noble and pure act.
So instead of saying sexuality should be limited to people you're attracted to, I think it's more reasonable to say that nobody should be forced into giving up parts of their sexuality out of need or desperation.



mezzoforte said:


> I know it's hard to find girls to date or have sex with when you have SA, but if I was a socially anxious male who paid a prostitute, it would make me feel bad that I couldn't have sex with someone who actually wanted me. :\


I actually don't disagree.
I don't think I could ever visit a prostitute. I already feel kind of like an outsider and have trouble feeling accepted and (dare I say) "normal", and seeing a prostitute would only make that worse, I think.

But I do think it's important to point out that while this thread is about male customers of prostitutes, there are women that see prostitutes as well.
I found this in a news paper article about a gigolo:


> A quarter of the female customers visiting the gigolo are busy with their career. So busy that they can't fit in a man in their schedule, he explains.
> 
> "They would rather buy sex with me, than go out and find some random guy in the city at night. When they buy me, they know what they get and they don't have to do anything other than pay for the hours I'm there"


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

arnie said:


> That's an amazingly fine line you're walking.


Between what? The truth and ambiguity?


----------



## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

TicklemeRingo said:


> I've always been puzzled that the idea of sex work seems to stir up quite a strong, visceral reaction in some people, and I'm interested in understanding it.


I don't understand it either.



TicklemeRingo said:


> It seems this sort of thing is regarded as ethically ok. Yet once the masseur's hands reach a certain part of the body, that seems to cross a line for many people. Once the pleasure the client is receiving turns from purely physical to sexual, that seems to upset a lot of people and I'm curious about the reasons for that?
> 
> Is that line arbitrary?
> 
> ...


Of course it crosses a line. If people aren't planning on having a sexual encounter with a stranger, they aren't going to want to be touched sexually. It makes complete sense to me. If a stranger came up to you and just touched you down there, wouldn't it be awkward because it was unwarranted? :con


----------



## KelsKels (Oct 4, 2011)

No.

BlahblahblahImajudgmentalb****blahblahdatesarethesameasprostitution


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

tbyrfan said:


> I don't understand it either.
> 
> Of course it crosses a line. If people aren't planning on having a sexual encounter with a stranger, they aren't going to want to be touched sexually. It makes complete sense to me. If a stranger came up to you and just touched you down there, wouldn't it be awkward because it was unwarranted? :con


In my example the client is a willing participant in the sexual pleasure.
By "crosses a line for some people" I'm referring to other people who would judge the client (and often the worker too) negatively for taking part in that transaction (sex work).

I guess I could have made that more clear.


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Mercurochrome said:


> I met an escort just last night. Love <3.
> 
> She said, "It's so cute, I want to put a tiny little hat on it," and she moaned intensely when I wend down using the digits of my credit card.
> 
> Like I said, LOVE. What was her name?


I thought you were going to mention a ford escort...


----------



## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

TicklemeRingo said:


> In my example the client is a willing participant in the sexual pleasure.
> By "crosses a line for some people" I'm referring to other people who would judge the client (and often the worker too) negatively for taking part in that transaction (sex work).
> 
> I guess I could have made that more clear.


Oh okay, that makes a lot more sense now. :yes


----------



## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

MavenMI6Agent009 said:


> I thought you were going to mention a ford escort...


That's where it happened, friend.

After our fling, we spoke of education, safety, and lifestyle opportunity to change. Me, with my money, and her, with her being female.

She's now a fortune 500 CEO on Wall Street. True story. (And I just met her last night!)

To be frank, I got more out of helping her than the sex, but don't tell her that.


----------



## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

Everyone, find a program like hips.org in your city.

Do something good before you die.


----------



## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

Mercurochrome said:


> That's where it happened, friend.
> 
> After our fling, we spoke of education, safety, and lifestyle opportunity to change. Me, with my money, and her, with her being female.
> 
> ...


Oh rly :roll

Which one on this list?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Women_CEOs_of_the_Fortune_500*


----------



## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

Mercurochrome said:


> Everyone, find a program like hips.org in your city.
> 
> Do something good before you die.


HIPS = High Intensity Prostate Stimulation

Where do I sign up?


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

I'd love to hear more answers to the hypothetical question(s) I posted at #62. 

No one has to, of course...


----------



## JustAPhase (Mar 4, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I'm not a feminist but I hate people on this forum's attitude to them, it continues to piss me off. I feel like they are the only group of people where it's OK to class them all as exactly the same, when really there are many varying opinions on various issues among feminists. ]


The idea of feminism as a whole is ridiculous to me. The majority of feminist I've listened/spoken too say the same thing, that they want to be treated equally as men and to stop being objectified. Society really isn't restricting their rights or abilities to do anything. So why are they complaining?

If a group of people don't want to be treated differently, they shouldn't demand special attention.

No it isn't right to generalize all of them. Generalizations are bad in general. I just feel like they bring it upon themselves.


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

oh dear


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

"A Feminista believes that being a good wife, mother, and homemaker is slavery."-Doc Love


"Men are jerks, only want one thing, and are all alike. They only have different faces so you can tell them apart."-The Feminista Rule Book.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

TicklemeRingo said:


> When the therapist is massaging, say, their hamstring or back, should the client be concerned if the worker/professional is not getting pleasure from the experience?
> 
> Does it matter how much the physio or masseur cares about the client, on a personal level?
> ...
> ...


I know I'm not really the person you're addressing your question to, but I'll try to explain how I see it still.

There are a lot of jobs out there that people don't enjoy doing and only do for the pay. We generally are ok with that.
I would say we should try to limit the unhappiness in those jobs and the demands we make on people to sell their labour under bad conditions.
Not all jobs can be great and fulfilling of course, but nobody should suffer from working either.

When it comes to sexuality, things are a little different.
We do have a strong sense of an intimate sphere and we have a human right to privacy, and I take that to include sexuality and a right not to be forced to share our intimacy with others.
So unlike normal jobs that people quite often are driven into by desperation and need, I don't think jobs involving sexuality should ever be forced on people for those reasons.
But if people choose that they would really rather work as a prostitute than stacking shelves or doing office work, I don't have a problem with them making that choice.
There are some potential dangers in prostitution, so we have to make sure that the conditions are ok and that people aren't exploited or trapped in the business, but I don't want to forbid that line of work in general.

Prostitutes sell a sexual service. They aren't parting with part of their physical body.
I don't think organs should be freely tradable. That seems to me to be selling off a human right and it also does seem too ripe for exploitation.

All my answers are from a Danish perspective though.
That is to say, it is based on my knowledge of how prostitution works here and the reports on reasons people enter into prostitution and the things prostitutes say about their work and their health conditions.
I have no doubt conditions can be far worse in other countries, and even here there's an incredible world of difference in conditions for prostitutes working on the street and those working in clinics/parlours.
My point is simply that the bad things people rightfully can point out happening in different places aren't necessary consequences of the act of prostitution itself, but rather come about from the conditions under which prostitution occurs.


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

komorikun said:


> I didn't know we are assuming the guy has never been in a relationship before. And lack of experience is not something difficult to overcome. I kind of think that people that are bad in bed are just bad in bed. It's just the way they are.


huh? We weren't assuming that... Haven't you heard of guys seeing prostitutes to gain experience?


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

TicklemeRingo said:


> oh dear


Yep.


----------



## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Twelve Keyz said:


> huh? We weren't assuming that... Haven't you heard of guys seeing prostitutes to gain experience?


Only on this forum. Outside of this forum, I've only ever heard about boys losing their virginity that way. Like their dad bring them or their friends.

I don't really see lack of experience as being bad. I think I could teach any guy what to do pretty easily within a month or so.


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

@Milco

Thanks for your response.

What I'm trying to ascertain is whether peoples objections to sex work are because of the conditions under which it takes place (which as you said, can vary greatly - and I hope we all want to see those conditions vastly improved for the workers involved),

or is it because of attitudes to sex itself? (or some combination of both)


----------



## Twelve Keyz (Aug 28, 2011)

arnie said:


> I just find it amazing that all of the feminist on here are so quick to dump someone because of something that happened in the past.
> 
> How many threads have we had on here where the message gets pounded over and over that guys shouldn't care how many sexual partners a girl has had, that the past is the past and we shouldn't judge people based on their past sexual experiences only on what they say they want today. It's amazing how hypocritical people become when the genders are reversed.


^ :yes


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

TicklemeRingo said:


> Just out of interest, does anybody feel like sharing their views on what exactly about the practice/transaction makes them uncomfortable, or what it is they disapprove of?
> 
> I've seen a lot of people saying _"I wouldn't be happy about it, but..."_ without saying why it is they wouldn't be happy about it.
> 
> ...


I think the only thing that would really bother me would be what was the sex worker's (be they male or female - that's something else I'm not sure other's have considered) situation.

I know that some people are OK with what they're doing, in the same way that many adult film stars are. Especially in areas where they have brothels and stuff, where it's legalised they have some kind of family atmosphere at times I think... And like you mentioned before (if it's who I think you're talking about) there was someone on the forum who spoke about it a while back.

You can't know for certain though so that aspect is a little worrying. That's why I'd be more reluctant to date someone from the UK who had dated a prostitute than say someone from Australia. I think the chances for people to be exploited and such here are much higher.


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

^Thanks for that response.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

TicklemeRingo said:


> What is it about sexual pleasure that changes the equation for people from one of a mutually agreed upon transaction between consenting adults, to one of unethical exploitation?
> 
> (I'm certainly not suggesting there aren't very complex ethical questions surrounding sex work, quite the opposite, just exploring one avenue of thought)


I think that people are (and understandably so) very worried about rape, and consent and there's the possibility here for consent to be ambiguous which would worry some people. The masseuse (in your example) might be being blackmailed into doing things by someone behind the scenes like their boss which would not be good.

But there's always been taboos around sex as well. Sex is still considered to be a very personal thing even in this day and age and I think another thing that would bother people is the idea of one party not getting anything out of it. It feels wrong for most people I think, even if the other party insists they are willing.

I know this is something that some asexual-sexual couples have to overcome when the asexual party is not sex averse (from what I've read online and one of my own relationships, though I'm not asexual in general - graysexual - that relationship was.) and so agrees to do things, either sex or sexual things other than intercourse, without getting anything out of it themselves (at least in a sexual light they just see it as helping a partner, or might find it interesting in some other light)

I think though that when money is thrown into the equation it just adds another layer on top of what's already a hard concept for some people to deal with.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

JustAPhase said:


> The idea of feminism as a whole is ridiculous to me. The majority of feminist I've listened/spoken too say the same thing, that they want to be treated equally as men and to stop being objectified. Society really isn't restricting their rights or abilities to do anything. So why are they complaining?
> 
> If a group of people don't want to be treated differently, they shouldn't demand special attention.
> 
> No it isn't right to generalize all of them. Generalizations are bad in general. I just feel like they bring it upon themselves.


OK, I don't want to get into this here actually because this is an interesting topic that I don't want to see derailed any more but thanks for your input I agree with the last part about generalising being wrong.


----------



## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

TicklemeRingo said:


> What I'm trying to ascertain is whether peoples objections to sex work are because of the conditions under which it takes place (which as you said, can vary greatly - and I hope we'd all want to see those conditions vastly improved for the workers involved),
> 
> or is it because of attitudes to sex itself? (or some combination of both)


I think a lot of people have the assumption that sex work is always an involuntary profession in which the sex worker should expect to be mistreated. They might also assume that sex workers as a whole don't respect themselves or their bodies, meaning that they tend to be popular among people who objectify others and show no concern for their emotional or physical well-being. I always assumed that people exchange with sex workers out of loneliness and the need for any sort of affection rather than to achieve a feeling of power from the thought that "He/she can't say no because he/she needs the money."


----------



## Glass Child (Feb 28, 2013)

If he was_ really_ close to me, I would let it go. It would make me very upset to hear about it, but I wouldn't want to make him feel worse- I'd value his honesty.

If I had just gotten to know him? Goodbye, sorry.


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

@Persephone - Thanks for your response .



Persephone The Dread said:


> I think that people are (and understandably so) very worried about rape, and consent and there's the possibility here for consent to be ambiguous which would worry some people. The masseuse (in your example) might be being blackmailed into doing things by someone behind the scenes like their boss which would not be good.


I'm certainly very concerned about consent in a sexual context too. That was one thing I wanted to explore, in fact. 
However, I should have made it clear that in my example both participants were willing and consenting. I was referring to a strictly professional, above board Physiotherapist or massage therapist - the kind perhaps someone with a sports injury might go to, or someone simply looking for a relaxing/pleasurable massage.

The purpose of my hypothetical was to put the question of working conditions/legality/regulation to one side for a moment and examine what it is about providing sexual pleasure for money that seems to separate it in peoples minds from providing other types of physical pleasure. The client would be getting physical pleasure from a back or hamstring massage in my scenario.



> ...I think another thing that would bother people is the idea of one party not getting anything out of it. It feels wrong for most people I think, even if the other party insists they are willing.


For arguments sake, would it matter that the physiotherapist/massage therapist in my example is not getting the same pleasure that they are providing to the client? 
The worker is getting something out of it: Payment (although I realise that isn't what you meant by "not getting anything out of it")
My question was about why one scenario seems ethically wrong for some people, and the other doesn't (notwithstanding the circumstantial factors as I said).



> I think though that when money is thrown into the equation it just adds another layer on top of what's already a hard concept for some people to deal with.


This is one of the things that it seems some people have a hard time accepting or condoning: That sexual pleasure could be given in return for money. People are of course perfectly entitled to feel that way, I'm not seeking to judge them, merely understand the reasoning behind it.

Again, thanks for your response. I'm not trying to criticise, just explore ideas.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Persephone The Dread said:


> The masseuse (in your example) might be being blackmailed into doing things by someone behind the scenes like their boss which would not be good.


This is definitely one of the issues that could arise.
In general, I think people feel it's wrong for a third party to make money off of somebody's sexual activity.
The law we have here makes that illegal. I believe prostitutes are allowed to have a secretary and they can pay rent on the rooms they use, but they cannot have a person above them who makes a schedule for them or has a power to decide over them and who makes money from what they do.
I don't know if that's the best solution to solving the issues that can be there, but it seems to work all right.

I'm not sure people all that often have been trying to figure out solutions to these kinds of problems, because the debate usually is about whether prostitution in general should be legal/illegal and not about what conditions and right prostitutes should have.



tbyrfan said:


> I think a lot of people have the assumption that sex work is always an involuntary profession in which the sex worker should expect to be mistreated. They might also assume that sex workers as a whole don't respect themselves or their bodies, meaning that they tend to be popular among people who objectify others and show no concern for their emotional or physical well-being.


There are some groups who view prostitution as an expression of male sexual oppression of women; that men demand access to women's bodies.
It's an argument that usually gets mentioned when the debate is going here. I don't want to attribute that point of view to anybody on here though - people can say if that's how they feel.

But I wanted to share some numbers from a report published 2 years ago by The Danish National Centre for Social Research (under the Ministry of Social Affairs), which shows how different conditions are depending on what environment the workers are in (based on the answers of the workers themselves):



> *Sex as primary source of income:*
> Clinic workers: 67%
> Female escorts: 39.5%
> Male escorts: 14%
> ...


----------



## TicklemeRingo (Jan 11, 2013)

tbyrfan said:


> I think a lot of people have the assumption that sex work is always an involuntary profession in which the sex worker should expect to be mistreated. They might also assume that sex workers as a whole don't respect themselves or their bodies, meaning that they tend to be popular among people who objectify others and show no concern for their emotional or physical well-being. I always assumed that people exchange with sex workers out of loneliness and the need for any sort of affection rather than to achieve a feeling of power from the thought that "He/she can't say no because he/she needs the money."


Thanks for that 

Yes, it was partly those assumptions that I wanted to question.

Attitudes to sex work seem to vary greatly from country to country/place to place, and i wonder how much that depends on the local legal/regulatory status of sex work in those places - i.e. what peoples understanding/view is of how sex work takes place around them.


----------



## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

A question to all the females who said they'll dump the guy: how would you feel if a guy dumped a girl when he finds out that his gf slept around before the relationship and was a "****" and that was the sole reason for him dumping her.


----------



## MindHacker (Jun 7, 2013)

This "guy" clearly has no self-respect, therefore probably has a shady character, therefore I would dump him. However I'm not a girl, so my vote doesn't count.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

gunner21 said:


> A question to all the females who said they'll dump the guy: how would you feel if a guy dumped a girl when he finds out that his gf slept around before the relationship and was a "****" and that was the sole reason for him dumping her.


I don't think this is an equivalent question though, you should be asking how they'd feel if a guy dumped a woman because she'd had sex with a prostitute.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I don't think this is an equivalent question though, you should be asking how they'd feel if a guy dumped a woman because she'd had sex with a prostitute.


Exactly.


----------



## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I don't think this is an equivalent question though, you should be asking how they'd feel if a guy dumped a woman because she'd had sex with a prostitute.


Females hiring male prostitutes is very rare since sex is so readily available for them.

Also, I saw some saying that hiring prostitutes that the guy might be more likely to cheat, so my question is still valid.


----------



## meganmila (Jul 25, 2011)

No I would not dump the guy just cause he had sex with a hooker...so I dunno why I was called a hypocrite if that is what you were trying to do.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

gunner21 said:


> Females hiring male prostitutes is very rare since sex is so readily available for them.
> 
> Also, I saw some saying that hiring prostitutes that the guy might be more likely to cheat, so my question is still valid.


It's a valid question, but it's not a valid comparison (or equivalent, to be more specific).


----------



## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> It's a valid question, but it's not a valid comparison (or equivalent, to be more specific).


It is a valid comparison if unfaithfulness is the reason for the dumping, since that is the mean reason given by guys for dumping "****s".


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

^Only one person posted that they'd leave the guy due to worries of unfaithfulness. As far why guys would dump a woman with "too many" partners, that varies as well. I've heard/read a lot that it's because of fear of STDs, because they'd be worried she doesn't take him seriously or because they'd be intimidated by her level experience. 

You yourself just emphasized why it's not a valid comparison.


----------



## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

AllToAll said:


> ^Only one person posted that they'd leave the guy due to worries of unfaithfulness. As far why guys would dump a woman with "too many" partners, that varies as well. I've heard/read a lot that it's because of fear of STDs, because they'd be worried she doesn't take him seriously or because they'd be intimidated by her level experience.
> 
> You yourself just emphasized why it's not a valid comparison.


I'm too lazy to go back and check every page, but I'm sure there were more than one.

Also, the most cited reason I've seen from men is the one I stated. (and that's from this site too)


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Ok. I'll take your statement as factual. 


:roll


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

gunner21 said:


> I'm too lazy to go back and check every page, but I'm sure there were more than one.
> 
> Also, the most cited reason I've seen from men is the one I stated. (and that's from this site too)


No I looked back through the thread and I can't find anyone else who suggested that. Some of the main concerns/reasons why people would dump people have been: worried about how prostitutes in general are treated/what it means if a guy is willing to go along with that and std's.

I can only find one example where someone suggested (bearing in mind I was only looking through the female posters comments since that's who you're talking about) that the guy might be more likely to be unfaithful if they'd been seeing prostitutes.

I don't want to be naming names (but if you bother to go back through the thread you can see who posted what yourself first hand anyway) but in addition to that, one person seemed to suggest the complete opposite that they were worried that if the guy had been to a prostitute they might not be very good at sex at all.


----------



## alieneyed (Jul 3, 2013)

It depends. Was it a one time thing? Was he drunk? Was she an A-List hooker or some cracked-out ratchet giving out handies for a fix? I don't know. I try not to judge. As long as I care about the dude and he doesn't have any STD's, we cool. Just kidding. That's gross. Never mind. I can't make a decision. No. Yes? No? Yes? No. Maybe I should flip a coin.


----------



## shyvr6 (Feb 18, 2008)

I deleted/edited several posts. Let's try and stay civil with each other. Thanks.


----------



## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

I'm glad that some people are open minded.


----------



## CopadoMexicano (Aug 21, 2004)

Noca said:


> I don't understand why people will suddenly alienate another person, who they have been in a relationship/known for some time just because they found out a previously unknown fact that occurred prior to them ever being together. Like how does this change anything? The person is still the same person you knew and cared about 5 minutes ago. It is so ridiculous and immature.
> 
> Did they murder or rape someone? Was there a victim? If not, get over yourself. Really.
> 
> ...


Maybe the girl fears the guy may have aids/hiv?


----------



## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

arnie said:


> I just find it amazing that all of the feminist on here are so quick to dump someone because of something that happened in the past.
> 
> How many threads have we had on here where the message gets pounded over and over that guys shouldn't care how many sexual partners a girl has had, that the past is the past and we shouldn't judge people based on their past sexual experiences only on what they say they want today. It's amazing how hypocritical people become when the genders are reversed.


I find it amazing how 98% of your posts are obsessed with bashing teh feminists. Hangups much? 

To address your point, you're comparing apples and oranges. Sexual partners being an issue versus the someone using prostitution being an issue are different. People object to the utilizing prostitution on principle not the person having sex with someone else. It's the method not the act that is morally and ethically wrong to most posters here. You aren't condemning someone based on the fact that they have had sex with someone other than you in their past.


----------



## TheDarkGuardian (Jun 1, 2013)

If a feminazi has been judging you on your past then that scum ain't worth your time of consideration!

Your business, your history. If she got a problem with it then that's her uptight problem.


----------



## MidnightBlu (Jun 11, 2006)

No, but he CANNOT see prostitutes between our dates. Where the hell is that option for the poll?


----------



## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

Noca said:


> Don't tell a feminist if you are dating one if you have been with an escort in the past, or better yet, just don't date feminists.


Everyone should be a feminist. You don't mind that women get paid less than men for doing the same job, and are treated less than them in general, quite often? :/ You'd rather have a woman who is happy with the unfairness of the world?


----------



## MoonlitMadness (Mar 11, 2013)

alieneyed said:


> It depends. Was it a one time thing? Was he drunk? Was she an A-List hooker or some cracked-out ratchet giving out handies for a fix? I don't know. I try not to judge. As long as I care about the dude and he doesn't have any STD's, we cool. Just kidding. That's gross. Never mind. I can't make a decision. No. Yes? No? Yes? No. Maybe I should flip a coin.


Lol, I'm with you.


----------



## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

Noca said:


> I don't understand why people will suddenly alienate another person, who they have been in a relationship/known for some time just because they found out a previously unknown fact that occurred prior to them ever being together. Like how does this change anything? The person is still the same person you knew and cared about 5 minutes ago.


I agree with this.

It's not like being with a prostitute is this totally heinous or grievous act. Who knows what the guy had going on in his life that drove him to sleep with a prostitute. Guys have their own needs, and if there's something wrong where he's unable to play the dating game, then so what if he fulfilled those needs with a prostitute?

I can understand having a hangup about it if he made a regular habit of it and did it all the time to 'supplement' his love life, but if it was just one time, or if it was just a few times over the course of his life, then so _what_?


----------



## Memememe (May 7, 2013)

No., i wouldnt dump him. That was his past. As long as he promises me not to be with other women while we're still together


----------



## TobeyJuarez (May 16, 2012)

mezzoforte said:


> but if I was a socially anxious male who paid a prostitute, it would make me feel bad that I couldn't have sex with someone who actually wanted me. :\


If your going to a prostitute because you feel that you can't get a girlfriend because girls don't like you, you have already accepted that u can't get a girlfriend because girls don't like you.... It wouldnt make sense to feel worse about yourself for acting upon what you have already accepted to be the truth... The only reason to feel bad for going to a prostitute would be a concern for the prostitute


----------



## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

MoonlitMadness said:


> Everyone should be a feminist. You don't mind that women get paid less than men for doing the same job, and are treated less than them in general, quite often? :/ You'd rather have a woman who is happy with the unfairness of the world?


If you are referring to the oft cited stat that women only earn 75% as much as a man, then you should know that it's not true.

When you look at men and women doing the same job with the same experience, then the gap is actually 9%

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/why-are-women-paid-less/263776/

I read an interesting theory that the free market should help correct any wage imbalance given enough time. Whenever there is a firm that is discriminating against women, their competitors can poach their female employees and out-compete them. Firms that don't discriminate will be more efficient than firms that do.


----------



## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

diamondheart89 said:


> I find it amazing how 98% of your posts are obsessed with bashing teh feminists. Hangups much?


Hangups? When I see propaganda like this about wanting to kill all men? Yeah. I have a hang up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto


----------



## Spungo (Jul 30, 2012)

MoonlitMadness said:


> Everyone should be a feminist. You don't mind that women get paid less than men for doing the same job


People need to stop saying this since it has been debunked many times. It falls into the same category as people who think the earth is 6000 years old. A business owner said it best: if women did the same job for less money, my entire staff would be women.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/


> The wage gap statistic, however, doesn't compare two similarly situated co-workers of different sexes, working in the same industry, performing the same work, for the same number of hours a day. *It merely reflects the median earnings of all men and women classified as full-time workers*.
> 
> The Department of Labor's Time Use Survey, for example, finds that the *average full-time working man spends 8.14 hours a day on the job, compared to 7.75 hours for the full-time working woman.* Employees who work more likely earn more. Men working five percent longer than women alone explains about one-quarter of the wage gap.
> ....
> ...


Makes sense. When I was taking engineering at university, the ratio of men to women was about 50 to 1. There was 1 woman. Just by looking at okcupid or plenty of fish, you can see that men and women do different jobs. From what I've seen, a large percentage of men on okcupid are engineers, computer programmers, or entrepreneurs. Most of the women on okcpupid in my age range are either working in retail or working at a non-technical office job.

On top of that, women take about 50% more sick time than men.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212846.htm

To bring the averages down even lower, women are often replaced while they are on maternity leave because work still needs to get done. This doesn't happen to men because men rarely take leave.
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/mar/09/women-on-maternity-leave-illegal-discrimation


----------



## riderless (Jul 21, 2013)

arnie said:


> I just find it amazing that all of the feminist on here are so quick to dump someone because of something that happened in the past.
> 
> How many threads have we had on here where the message gets pounded over and over that guys shouldn't care how many sexual partners a girl has had, that the past is the past and we shouldn't judge people based on their past sexual experiences only on what they say they want today. It's amazing how *hypocritica*l people become when the genders are reversed.


Have to agree . Hypocrisy is evident, having read some of the other threads.
All I can say is, thank god for women who don't judge us about our past!
And what about the older guys who have had no experience! That would be just as bad for some females. "there must be something wrong with him if he has never done it at all!"


----------



## Ray007 (Jul 5, 2013)

Hush7 said:


> Why go to prostitutes when there are thousands of people in bars/clubs right before closing that will go home with you?


Besides, picking up women in bars and clubs is extremely difficult for someone with social anxiety, even if they get over the fear of approaching.

Hooking up with a girl in that kind of environment requires either very good looks (which few people have) or playing mind games.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Hush7 said:


> If you drink some liquid courage, you would have as much as a shot as one of the guys you think is good looking.


That's not really how it works.
If alcohol makes you very social and outgoing, that probably does increase your chances by quite a bit, but it doesn't work that way for all and it by no means is a near guarantee.


----------



## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

arnie said:


> Hangups? When I see propaganda like this about wanting to kill all men? Yeah. I have a hang up.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto


Yeah one time I saw a video about this guy who hates cats and wants to kill them. All men must hate cats. -_-


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

diamondheart89 said:


> Yeah one time I saw a video about this guy who hates cats and wants to kill them. All men must hate cats. -_-


Generalisations aren't a good thing, but surely there are some differences between supporting a particular political movement and having a particular gender.
It's not too difficult to find people who use feminism as motivation and justification for their dislike/hate of men, but it probably is quite a lot harder to find people who use their "maleness" as motivation and justification for hating cats.
I don't think the label people choose to use about themselves should matter - what matters are the actual beliefs people have - but that's exactly why parts of feminist ideology can be discussed without it being an attack on any individual; certainly without it being an attack on women.
And it's also why people shouldn't trust some message just because it's "feminist", but should evaluate it based on its merits and see if it makes sense to them.

As a side note though, there are many people both here on SAS and on the internet in general who judge people calling themselves "men's rights activists" and the men's rights movement as a whole. Calling it misogyny, oppressive, sexist and so on.
It would be nice if the same principles of judging based on message rather than label was universally applied.


----------



## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

Milco said:


> Generalisations aren't a good thing, but surely there are some differences between supporting a particular political movement and having a particular gender.
> It's not too difficult to find people who use feminism as motivation and justification for their dislike/hate of men, but it probably is quite a lot harder to find people who use their "maleness" as motivation and justification for hating cats.
> I don't think the label people choose to use about themselves should matter - what matters are the actual beliefs people have - but that's exactly why parts of feminist ideology can be discussed without it being an attack on any individual; certainly without it being an attack on women.
> And it's also why people shouldn't trust some message just because it's "feminist", but should evaluate it based on its merits and see if it makes sense to them.
> ...


The majority of people who I have seen use the word "feminist" in any context on this forum has been to attack feminism or women in general who happen to advocate women's rights or equality. I think the argument that "it's not hard to find people who use feminism as an excuse to hate men" (pardon the paraphrase) is the same as "it's not hard to find muslims who want to blow things up" argument. Namely, if you search hard enough, you will find something to support any idea you're pushing. I agree it would be nice if labels were disregarded in favor of the argument in more topics. However often, people judge others based on pre-conceived notions and past experiences and that is not likely to change much.


----------



## trymed (Jun 28, 2013)

What a person chooses to do with their own sexual organs is their own business. If you're that judgemental you shouldn't be dating at all, because you don't want a partner in life, you want an object to own. 

Having said that, it's not safe or responsible to use sex workers if you are already in a sexual relationship. It also might be a turn off if the guy likes hoovers a lot.. I personally don't get turned on by paying for sex... so I can see why someone wanting a serious relationship might be a bit spooked by that behavior. 
It depends on circumstance...


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

diamondheart89 said:


> The majority of people who I have seen use the word "feminist" in any context on this forum has been to attack feminism or women in general who happen to advocate women's rights or equality. I think the argument that "it's not hard to find people who use feminism as an excuse to hate men" (pardon the paraphrase) is the same as "it's not hard to find muslims who want to blow things up" argument. Namely, if you search hard enough, you will find something to support any idea you're pushing. I agree it would be nice if labels were disregarded in favor of the argument in more topics. However often, people judge others based on pre-conceived notions and past experiences and that is not likely to change much.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with advocating equality and equal rights for all. And obviously the genders aren't identical, so in some cases women will have needs men never do and in other cases men will have needs that women never never.

But I disagree with your comparison. Extremism to the point of favouring violence and wishing physical harm to others is thankfully rare in both political movements and religion.
I can't address feminism in all different countries and cultures obviously, but I can say how it is in Scandinavia, and here, it promotes and understanding of for example violence and rape as male oppression of women. If that's not what you believe, then I won't force that belief on you just because you call yourself a "feminist".
But the reason I don't call myself a feminist is exactly because the sexism in the movement as a whole (in axioms, rhetoric and initiatives) makes me uneasy. And that is also the same reason why I'm not a men's rights activist.


----------



## Noll (Mar 29, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> It would make me question their views on women and character. Simple as that.


what about a woman paying for sex with a male prostitute? does that mean the woman disrespects men? i don't see how prostitution disrespects a gender tbh. you shouldn't question someone's views on women for having sex with a (female) prostitute, you should if the man has been abusing or raped women in the past or something. i can't understand at all how someone would be upset about someone having sex with a prostitute in the past by the way, that's just crazy. the act of prostitution isn't gross in my opinion, but pimping etc definitely is.


----------



## scarpia (Nov 23, 2009)

What a brawl!


----------



## Burnt1 (Aug 16, 2013)

There is a very fine line between paying for porno/watching porno and being with a hooker. As long as he is true to you now, loves you, and has not placed you in danger due to his escapades....I wouldn't be too concerned. I bring up the porno because millions of married men watch porno and most women today accept that.


----------



## ohgodits2014 (Mar 18, 2011)

tbyrfan said:


> I think a lot of people have the assumption that sex work is always an involuntary profession in which the sex worker should expect to be mistreated. They might also assume that sex workers as a whole don't respect themselves or their bodies, meaning that they tend to be popular among people who objectify others and show no concern for their emotional or physical well-being. *I always assumed that people exchange with sex workers out of loneliness and the need for any sort of affection rather than to achieve a feeling of power from the thought that "He/she can't say no because he/she needs the money."*


http://findingjustice.org/prostitution-statistics/



> The Top 3 Reasons Men Paid for Sex:
> 1. Satisfy an immediate urge for sex
> 2. Experience a specific physical, racial or sexual fetish
> 3. Unsatisfied in their current relationship


Yeah, so mostly it really IS to achieve a feeling of power, although I imagine their thinking is more along the line of "She can't say no because *I* have already paid for her."


----------



## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

rednosereindeer said:


> http://findingjustice.org/prostitution-statistics/
> 
> Yeah, so mostly it really IS to achieve a feeling of power, although I imagine their thinking is more along the line of "She can't say no because *I* have already paid for her."


Are you talking about number 2, indicating that the fetish in question is to achieve a feeling of power? There are many other fetishes people might want to fulfill by seeing a prostitute, and power is only one of many fetishes. (I would guess that most of these fetishes are simply innocuous ones such as leather or role-playing that many people might be uncomfortable admitting to a potential partner.) Also, achieving a feeling of power isn't most of the reason...the other 2 top reasons had nothing to do with achieving power over someone.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Noll said:


> what about a woman paying for sex with a male prostitute? does that mean the woman disrespects men? i don't see how prostitution disrespects a gender tbh. you shouldn't question someone's views on women for having sex with a (female) prostitute, you should if the man has been abusing or raped women in the past or something. i can't understand at all how someone would be upset about someone having sex with a prostitute in the past by the way, that's just crazy. the act of prostitution isn't gross in my opinion, but pimping etc definitely is.


Prostitution doesn't "disrespect" a gender (neither do I think prostitutes are disgusting), but the person visiting one possibly does or sees them [the gender visited] as purely sexual objects.

Some of you can keep insisting that you don't understand it, and that's fine, but it's counterproductive. It's a matter of principle, not the actual act of sex (to sorta answer Ringo). That one act would make me question how he sees me, as a woman, and wonder what other ideas we don't agree on. Visiting a prostitute is not a little thing to me. You PAID a woman (and probably a large sum if it's in the US with a decent escort), who didn't actually like you, to have sex with you. That's disgusting to me. 
If this is his big, dark, shameful secret he feels is completely distant from the person he is now, don't tell me. Keep it as one of those regrets that's in the past.


----------



## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

diamondheart89 said:


> Yeah one time I saw a video about this guy who hates cats and wants to kill them. All men must hate cats. -_-


:lol


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

rednosereindeer said:


> Yeah, so mostly it really IS to achieve a feeling of power, although I imagine their thinking is more along the line of "She can't say no because *I* have already paid for her."


Uhm.. what you quoted doesn't actually say or demonstrate that.

And as I've already posted from a 2 year old report here, 'only' 3% of female prostitutes working in clinics have experienced violence in the past year.
No act of violence should be tolerated, naturally, but I'm sure many on here (myself included) would have guessed the number to be significantly higher if we were asked.
If you have a dominance/submission fetish that is consensual and non-violent in nature, I don't really see the problem in that.


----------



## alieneyed (Jul 3, 2013)

scarpia said:


> What a brawl!


It's a slobber-knocker.


----------



## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Milco said:


> As a side note though, there are many people both here on SAS and on the internet in general who judge people calling themselves "men's rights activists" and the men's rights movement as a whole. Calling it misogyny, oppressive, sexist and so on.
> It would be nice if the same principles of judging based on message rather than label was universally applied.


Agreed 100%. Apparently to some, you can only fight for women's rights...because any issues men face don't matter. :roll


----------



## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

tbyrfan said:


> Agreed 100%. Apparently to some, you can only fight for women's rights...because any issues men face don't matter. :roll


That's illogical. To support a specific group in anything does not in fact, take away from any other group. :blank I.e. Me joining an organization supporting poor people's rights in Africa doesn't mean I hate poor people here. If you feel strongly about men's issues I encourage you to follow up on that, but to deride other people for believing in women's rights is ridiculous. What do you want, everyone else to stop focusing on the issues they care about?


----------



## arnie (Jan 24, 2012)

diamondheart89 said:


> but to deride other people for believing in women's rights is ridiculous.


WTF are you even talking about? Show me where she derided people for believing in women's rights. :no


----------



## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

arnie said:


> WTF are you even talking about? Show me where she derided people for believing in women's rights. :no


:roll How about you let your gf handle her own posts? Since I responded to her, I have no idea why you're talking to me.

And in normal conversation rolling your eyes connotates derision. I know, it's shocking it may have come across as deriding the subject of the sentence it followed.


----------



## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

diamondheart89 said:


> That's illogical. To support a specific group in anything does not in fact, take away from any other group. :blank I.e. Me joining an organization supporting poor people's rights in Africa doesn't mean I hate poor people here. If you feel strongly about men's issues I encourage you to follow up on that, but to deride other people for believing in women's rights is ridiculous. What do you want, everyone else to stop focusing on the issues they care about?


When did I deride people for supporting women's rights? :con I'm just saying that there are some hypocrites out there who deride people for supporting men's rights, regardless of whether or not they support women's rights as well. If someone supports equal rights for women and truly believes in equality of the sexes, they would support equal rights for men as well. I think that throwing around "Men's Rights Activist" as an insult is similar to using "feminist" as an insult: the true premise of feminism is to achieve social, political, and economic equality for women, and i'm sure it feels insulting when people interpret the movement the wrong way.


----------



## diamondheart89 (Mar 21, 2011)

tbyrfan said:


> When did I deride people for supporting women's rights? :con I'm just saying that there are some hypocrites out there who deride people for supporting men's rights, regardless of whether or not they support women's rights as well. If someone supports equal rights for women and truly believes in equality of the sexes, they would support equal rights for men as well. I think that throwing around "Men's Rights Activist" as an insult is similar to using "feminist" as an insult: the true premise of feminism is to achieve social, political, and economic equality for women, and i'm sure it feels insulting when people interpret the movement the wrong way.


If that's what you meant I misunderstood your post. My bads.  Didn't mean to go all attackmode on you.

And I agree, I dislike hypocrites.


----------



## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

diamondheart89 said:


> If that's what you meant I misunderstood your post. My bads.  Didn't mean to go all attackmode on you.
> 
> And I agree, I dislike hypocrites.


No problem. :yes Luckily, those kinds of people are in the minority.


----------



## Noll (Mar 29, 2011)

AllToAll said:


> Prostitution doesn't "disrespect" a gender (neither do I think prostitutes are disgusting), but the person visiting one possibly does or sees them [the gender visited] as purely sexual objects.
> 
> Some of you can keep insisting that you don't understand it, and that's fine, but it's counterproductive. It's a matter of principle, not the actual act of sex (to sorta answer Ringo). That one act would make me question how he sees me, as a woman, and wonder what other ideas we don't agree on. Visiting a prostitute is not a little thing to me. You PAID a woman (and probably a large sum if it's in the US with a decent escort), who didn't actually like you, to have sex with you. That's disgusting to me.
> If this is his big, dark, shameful secret he feels is completely distant from the person he is now, don't tell me. Keep it as one of those regrets that's in the past.


i see what you mean and i respect your opinion. also i agree.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

AllToAll said:


> Prostitution doesn't "disrespect" a gender (neither do I think prostitutes are disgusting), but the person visiting one possibly does or sees them [the gender visited] as purely sexual objects.


It's hard to completely dismiss the possibility, but I wouldn't think that's all that common.
It's just guessing - I don't know anybody that has been to a prostitute (that I know of), so I don't know what thoughts people actually have about it - but..
I would think it was exactly that it is a human being people see that makes them willing to pay money for it. If they purely saw others as objects, that seems to make it rather mechanical, and the same 'goal' could be reached in much simpler/cheaper ways.
When you go to the dentist, you don't view that person purely as a tool for improving your dental health. You view them as a person, although there's a specific purpose to your visit.
I'm not sure that, just because sexuality is involved, it's necessarily all that much different. And I don't think it makes people view everybody of that gender merely as sexual objects. That would be rather strange considering how homosexuals also see prostitutes.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Milco said:


> It's hard to completely dismiss the possibility, but I wouldn't think that's all that common.
> It's just guessing - I don't know anybody that has been to a prostitute (that I know of), so I don't know what thoughts people actually have about it - but..
> I would think it was exactly that it is a human being people see that makes them willing to pay money for it. If they purely saw others as objects, that seems to make it rather mechanical, and the same 'goal' could be reached in much simpler/cheaper ways.


We can get into the argument of how I believe women are greatly objectified in the media and post various examples to back up my claim, or we can agree to disagree and avoid derailing the thread further. 
You've never met someone who's been to a prostitute, I've met one man (who fits my bill), so really there's no point in you arguing something that I won't change my mind about based on your assumption that's evidenced by claims I don't agree with.



> When you go to the dentist, you don't view that person purely as a tool for improving your dental health. You view them as a person, although there's a specific purpose to your visit.
> I'm not sure that, just because sexuality is involved, it's necessarily all that much different. And I don't think it makes people view everybody of that gender merely as sexual objects. That would be rather strange considering how homosexuals also see prostitutes.


I don't see how this is a relevant analogy at all. Sex _does_ change the way we approach people, actions, etc. To say it doesn't is simply to ignore the sexual climate in which we live, where women's bodies are inherently seen as sexual and distanced from them as people, where our bodies are broken down into parts instead of seen as whole. Sex does impact our perspectives. When the percentage of male prostitutes is equal to women's, then you can throw the topic of homosexuals in the mix.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

AllToAll said:


> ..so really there's no point in you arguing something that I won't change my mind about based on your assumption that's evidenced by claims I don't agree with.


Excuse me?
You don't get to say there's no point in me presenting my arguments.



AllToAll said:


> To say it doesn't is simply to ignore the sexual climate in which we live, where women's bodies are inherently seen as sexual and distanced from them as people, where our bodies are broken down into parts instead of seen as whole.


...and where men are seen as perverted oppressors and attackers, potential rapists and callous individuals.

I don't think prostitution is inherently hate and contempt for women as people. None of what I've read has indicated that at all.


----------



## kiirby (Oct 8, 2010)

Milco said:


> As a side note though, there are many people both here on SAS and on the internet in general who judge people calling themselves "men's rights activists" and the men's rights movement as a whole. Calling it misogyny, oppressive, sexist and so on.
> It would be nice if the same principles of judging based on message rather than label was universally applied.


No, this is not necessarily hypocrisy. The 'message' and the 'label' of feminism are easily distinguishable; an academic construct of gender equality, and the discourse and activism which surrounds it. MRA, however, exists only as an activism movement formed in direct opposition to feminists. Men's rights are encompassed by feminism itself, however they are often neglected by the movement. This is a fault of the movement rather than the message. MRA is inherently gender exclusive in its activism. It is not objective and it does not rely on academia or sociological study.

It's a group comprised only of men focusing on issues which only affect men. It is not comparable to feminism.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Milco said:


> Excuse me?
> You don't get to say there's no point in me presenting my arguments.


You can feel free to present your arguments, just don't direct them to me because you're wasting your time.



> ...and where men are seen as perverted oppressors and attackers, potential rapists and callous individuals.


What does that have to do with this topic?



> I don't think prostitution is inherently hate and contempt for women as people. None of what I've read has indicated that at all.


Neither do I, but I would, like I've said various times, question his view of women because there is cultural evidence to back up the idea that women, by and large, are seen as sexual objects. I would wonder how he sees me, how he saw me when we first met; my female friends and family members, etc. That knowledge is something* I* won't be able to easily erase.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

kiirby said:


> No, this is not necessarily hypocrisy. The 'message' and the 'label' of feminism are easily distinguishable; an academic construct of gender equality, and the discourse and activism which surrounds it. MRA, however, exists only as an activism movement formed in direct opposition to feminists. Men's rights are encompassed by feminism itself, however they are often neglected by the movement. This is a fault of the movement rather than the message. MRA is inherently gender exclusive in its activism. It is not objective and it does not rely on academia or sociological study.
> 
> It's a group comprised only of men focusing on issues which only affect men. It is not comparable to feminism.


That's not really correct at all.
There are women in the men's rights movement and they do actually point out issues where men are falling behind, so they don't spend all their time criticising feminists.

I'm also not so sure that feminism has all that much validity as a scientific/academic endeavour. It's important to study both genders an inequality, but when the research is grounded in the assumption that women are discriminated against, there's a problem of bias.
I'm not sure what rights for men you mean are included in academic feminism, but the times I've heard feminist scholars talk about it, the rights and liberation they've talked about has been freeing men from the role of oppressor. That really isn't a liberation I need, because I'm not an oppressor to begin with. And it frankly is rather insulting.

I don't see how you can conclude the rest you do in your post.



AllToAll said:


> Neither do I, but I would, like I've said various times, question his view of women because there is cultural evidence to back up the idea that women, by and large, are seen as sexual objects.


There really isn't.
It's definitely fair to say that women are viewed in part based on their potential as sexual partners, but that's not at all the same as saying that is what they're seen entirely as, nor is it the same as being an object.
At least, I take "object" to imply that personhood is denied.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Milco said:


> There really isn't.
> It's definitely fair to say that women are viewed in part based on their potential as sexual partners, but that's not at all the same as saying that is what they're seen entirely as, nor is it the same as being an object.
> At least, I take "object" to imply that personhood is denied.


No, the articles I posted are completely fake and so is the constant sexual harassment women face. Ok. Got it. :roll


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

AllToAll said:


> No, the articles I posted are completely fake and so is the constant sexual harassment women face. Ok. Got it. :roll


If you want to make things up, I can't really stop you.
But I'm not sure that puts your arguments in a good light.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Milco said:


> If you want to make things up, I can't really stop you.
> But I'm not sure that puts your arguments in a good light.


Of course, of course. Again, like I said, the articles are completely fake and so are the statistics. 
As for the original topic, I was never making an argument. That was simply my opinion, which I, after many "I don't get it" remarks, decided to provide explanation for. You were the one who was looking for an argument, and I don't really care whether you agree with me, think my opinion is illogical, or don't care to believe or agree with my claims. You're simply disregarding what I've posted for denial's sake.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

AllToAll said:


> Of course, of course. Again, like I said, the articles are completely fake and so are the statistics.


I never said sexual harassment doesn't occur.
You represented me as if I had claimed that. That's why I said you were being rude and petty. Well, that and the roll-eye emote, which is really just comes off as dismissive and arrogant.



AllToAll said:


> As for the original topic, I was never making an argument. That was simply my opinion, which I, after many "I don't get it" remarks, decided to provide explanation for. You were the one who was looking for an argument, and I don't really care whether you agree with me, think my opinion is illogical, or don't care to believe or agree with my claims. You're simply disregarding what I've posted for denial's sake.


I know you weren't looking for an argument. I wasn't either.
You presented your opinion and I posted why I think you're wrong.
I think it's a problematic overinterpretation to say that seeing a prostitute is indicative of viewing the opposite gender as mere objects for sexual pleasure. And if it only applies to men seeing female prostitutes then it's a sexist statement as well.
Others quite often do point out when they think others are being unreasonable. Whether or not you should care depends on whether you want to be reasonable, I guess, though that's not the same as just accepting what I'm saying, of course. But merely listening to what I'm saying, considering it and then dismissing it as being wrong is "caring" about what I'm saying.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

I feel like this forum has really started to go down hill a lot recently (I mean it's always been on the edge, but more so now.) hmm..


----------



## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I feel like this forum has really started to go down hill a lot recently (I mean it's always been on the edge, but more so now.) hmm..


You mean SAS, or Relationships? SAS has had an aura of hostility lately.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

tbyrfan said:


> SAS has had an aura of hostility lately.


I'm sorry if my posts in this (or other) thread(s) have seemed hostile.
I generally think I'm a reasonably calm guy and I try to present my views in a respectful way, but I don't know how I come across of course (and I'm guessing people interpret it differently).
If something I say upsets you, just let me know and I'll buy you a beer or something and we can forget about it


----------



## Valtron (Jul 6, 2013)

No. If there is/was no emotional connection between them, I could care less. Just as long as he's clean.


----------



## Just Lurking (Feb 8, 2007)

tbyrfan said:


> You mean SAS, or Relationships? SAS has had an aura of hostility lately.


Well, for starters -- If _certain people_ would stop trolling every other topic with their grossly misinformed, ignorant opinions surrounding *feminism*, maybe the forums would be 'just a little' less hostile.


----------



## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

tbyrfan said:


> You mean SAS, or Relationships? SAS has had an aura of hostility lately.


Yes SAS, I've noticed that too.

Also I'm regretting having said anything now >.> since it won't help.


----------



## estse (Nov 18, 2003)

As long as you think, speak, write, what most people think, speak, write, you'll be okay.

And here it seems people define and feel words differently, which causes chaos in the system and endless bantering. Maybe it's synonymous to the real world and why there's so much pointless conflict.


----------



## tbyrfan (Feb 24, 2011)

Milco said:


> I'm sorry if my posts in this (or other) thread(s) have seemed hostile.
> I generally think I'm a reasonably calm guy and I try to present my views in a respectful way, but I don't know how I come across of course (and I'm guessing people interpret it differently).
> If something I say upsets you, just let me know and I'll buy you a beer or something and we can forget about it


You seem calm to me, Milco. I like your posts. :yes

Some peoples' tempers just get out of hand when controversial topics are brought up.


----------



## AllToAll (Jul 6, 2011)

Milco said:


> I never said sexual harassment doesn't occur.
> You represented me as if I had claimed that. That's why I said you were being rude and petty. Well, that and the roll-eye emote, which is really just comes off as dismissive and arrogant.


Sexual harassment is evidence that women are degraded and seen solely as objects, even while performing the most mundane tasks like going to the grocery store. You disagreed that women aren't oversexualized in society even after I had posted evidence, therefore you dismissed it.



> I know you weren't looking for an argument. I wasn't either.
> You presented your opinion and I posted why I think you're wrong.


That sorta looks like the makings of a debate to me...



> I think it's a problematic overinterpretation to say that seeing a prostitute is indicative of viewing the opposite gender as mere objects for sexual pleasure. And if it only applies to men seeing female prostitutes then it's a sexist statement as well.
> Others quite often do point out when they think others are being unreasonable. Whether or not you should care depends on whether you want to be reasonable, I guess, though that's not the same as just accepting what I'm saying, of course. But merely listening to what I'm saying, considering it and then dismissing it as being wrong is "caring" about what I'm saying.


You sure like to throw the word 'sexist' a lot, don't you? Even I don't use it that frequently. 
Here's the difference I see, that I don't even know why I'm bothering explaining: women are oversexualized in society and that's why there's such a high demand for prostitutes. Men aren't and that's why there's so few of them (or at least not close to the amount of female prostitutes/escorts). When it comes to their sexuality, both sexes are regarded differently. Women's bodies are seen as inherently sexual and men's aren't. My previous articles will tell you more about that. So no, it's not sexist when one sex (women) suffers from oversexualization.

Basically, because I don't agree with what you're saying, I'm being unreasonable? Couldn't I throw that adjective right back since you completely disregarded what I've said? Wrote it off saying "there really isn't" an issue? It's the pot calling the kettle black...


----------



## shyvr6 (Feb 18, 2008)

I did some minor editing. Let's try and debate the topic instead of taking personal jabs at each other. Thanks.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

scarpia said:


> Know any sailors? Very common for them to see prostitutes. In fact if they don't they can be in trouble. A guy named Joseph Rocha got brutalized for being gay. His unit mates first suspected that he was gay when he refused to sleep with female prostitutes, a practice that was widespread at his base.
> 
> http://www.palmcenter.org/press/dad...r+Two+Years+After+Refusal+to+Visit+Prostitute


I don't know any sailors, no.
But I'm not sure it's relevant. I'm not questioning that sexuality is a big deal in some social circles, that there's pressure to conform to sexual standards and that there is prejudice against sexual minorities.


----------



## Spungo (Jul 30, 2012)

Milco said:


> I don't know any sailors, no.
> But I'm not sure it's relevant. I'm not questioning that sexuality is a big deal in some social circles, that there's pressure to conform to sexual standards and that there is prejudice against sexual minorities.


It's a sad day when *not* sleeping with prostitutes puts someone in the minority 

It probably goes both ways. The first woman to pay for her own food was probably ridiculed by other women.


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Spungo said:


> It's a sad day when *not* sleeping with prostitutes puts someone in the minority


I don't think sexuality should be a socially enforced norm.
If people want to have sex, if they're allowed to and they do it legally.. that's fine. But there shouldn't be pressure on others to do it nor should sexuality be a part of the social climate in the work place.
I'd feel very uncomfortable working there and I don't think it's appropriate to use sexuality as a means for confirming group membership and gaining status in such a way.


----------



## CoastalSprite (Sep 8, 2011)

It depends on how he approached the situation. Was he respectful of her, used protection, and particularly made efforts to ensure she was not a human trafficking victim?

I prefer a guy who hasn't been with a prostitute because I don't believe that most women want to become one, especially the "street" kind... I would hope the he realizes that he may be enabling an already bad situation. If he didn't _understand _that, then I can accept it. If he didn't _care_, that's a whole other story.


----------



## riderless (Jul 21, 2013)

To be fair the question should also be :

Hey guys, would you dump your girlfriend if you found out she had been with a male prostitute?


----------



## JustAPhase (Mar 4, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> I feel like this forum has really started to go down hill a lot recently (I mean it's always been on the edge, but more so now.) hmm..


You have a bunch of socially anxious people on one forum. Some with other mental disorders or depression. My guess is a lot of people have misdirected anger, and don't know how to have a debate without taking everything so personal.


----------



## mezzoforte (May 16, 2010)

riderless said:


> Hey guys, would you dump your girlfriend if you found out she had been with a male prostitute?


I'm curious about this too. :b


----------



## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

riderless said:


> Hey guys, would you dump your girlfriend if you found out she had been with a male prostitute?





mezzoforte said:


> I'm curious about this too. :b


I read that question, but for some reason didn't think it applied to me.. I should really examine my gender :um

But nah. If I found a really great girl, I can't see any single thing like this being something I'd dump her over.
It might make me feel uncomfortable if it were part of a larger picture, but on its own it doesn't really matter.


----------

