# My experimental regime wich cured me



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

40mg memantine
7,5 mg AMT
20 mg dexedrine 3x day
1mg xanax 3x day
Full nicotine patch

However no delusions here, even with memantine tolerance can occur and i take breaks on a regular basis hoping i can stay ahead of that. There's been so many ppl that found their magic cure and then a while later they return because it stopped working, this is a REAL issue wich i keep in mind, and thinking this is gonna work forever can be just wishfull thinking.

Also guys, this regime works wonders for ME, i highly advice against the use of AMT, its been used as an antidepressant in the sovjet union for 20 years but it stays a research chemical, however it can be an option for people that have tried EVERYTHING and its either that or a life full of misery.

I'm not high on this combo, i just feel "normal".

Will this be a long term solution? Time will tell.

Its all about trial and error, dopamine is highly implicated in SA, if your treatment resistant start with MAOI's, and i dont want to encourage such a regime, altough im a big proponent of amphetamine but that can have its issues.


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## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

That looks like a pretty wild combo. Do you get any noticeable effects from the AMT on it's own at that dosage? I've been wanting to try AMT for a while, and it's not illegal here (because of a technicality combined with the fact it isn't popular enough to get the government's attention).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

In low doses it acts as a serotonine and dopamine releasing agent and a powerfull antidepressant and anxiolytic, its not psychedelic in those doses, in fact im scared of psychedelic experiences and dont like them, this doesnt occur in the lower dose range.

The research papers on it arent available online but apperantly in a library somewhere in the UK, a moderator on another forum looked at them to check for safety of this compound, it also was in clinical use for 20 Years in the sovjet union.

AMT on its own works GREAT for my OCD, ADD and social anxiety, my behavor around other ppl changed drastically, the "wall" around me was gone, however i still had the "i want to get out feeling" in social situations wich is the reason i added in dexedrine.


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## Duke of Prunes (Jul 20, 2009)

Sounds promising. What about tolerance? Do you lose the "magic" like people do with MDMA? Do you have to supplement with 5-HTP and L-Tyrosine at all? I've only read about AMT being used very sparingly and at recreational doses.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

All the research papers of AMT are in the "Sunderland Uni library" Sunderland is a grubby city in the N of England, perhaps you could go see them lol, as you live in the UK.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Duke of Prunes said:


> Sounds promising. What about tolerance? Do you lose the "magic" like people do with MDMA? Do you have to supplement with 5-HTP and L-Tyrosine at all? I've only read about AMT being used very sparingly and at recreational doses.


No it keeps working, otherwise it wouldnt have passed the clinical trials in russia, recreational doses do cause tolerance but thats not what were doing with therapeutic doses.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

Tolerance is a strange beast, but I somehow still believe stimulant medication can exert its positive effects indefinitely, without tolerance occurring to the things that matter the most, mainly focus and concentration ability. Using stimulants to perpetually feel good I expect to fail.

I also have reason to believe some forms of "tolerance" are due to lack of available dopamine, which would be helped by taking either L-Tyrosine or MAOI's. One reason for my beliefs is that my sister, who has smoked for a long long time, seems to have social anxiety and ADD under control for about ~40-50%. If nicotine would really cause tolerance to all of its positive effects, there would be no benefit after all these years.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I wouldnt mind tolerance to the "feel good" effect but tolerance does develop to the prosocial and anxiolytic effects, reason being the dopamine receptors get less sensitive except D4 wich doesnt downregulate when activated by a ligand and is the receptor wich causes the focus and anti ADD effects by activating the prefrontal cortex.

Some ppl do get completely tolerant to amphetamine's when used for SA or anything else, not everyone tough, but i beleive taking breaks in combination with memantine is the best approuch.

I'm going to be cautious, i dont want to find my working regime and then weeks later return saying it stopped working.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

Crazymed, do you think, perhaps, that tolerance to MDMA might be partly due to neurotoxicity and lack of mono-amines after recent use?

I seriously doubt the brain would allow us to feel anything but neutral when we're sitting on our *** doing nothing. Tolerance has its usefulness. Happiness and bliss without any external stimulation would mean doom to any organism.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Edwin said:


> Crazymed, do you think, perhaps, that tolerance to MDMA might be partly due to neurotoxicity and lack of mono-amines after recent use?
> 
> I seriously doubt the brain would allow us to feel anything but neutral when we're sitting on our *** doing nothing. Tolerance has its usefulness. Happiness and bliss without any external stimulation would mean doom to any organism.


No, i beleive that MDMA tolerance is completely mediated by receptor downregulation.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=464244

Check my thread there, st johns worth has been found to upregulate serotonine receptors and several ppl confirmed it brought the magic back.

Regular MDMA users have 5% less serotonin compared to controls, wich is really minimal, some neurotoxiticy has been observed in the thalamus in xtc abusers but this all is minimal, i'm pretty sure that neurotoxiticy or serotonine depletion has nothing to do with tolerance.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> I wouldnt mind tolerance to the "feel good" effect but tolerance does develop to the prosocial and anxiolytic effects, reason being the dopamine receptors get less sensitive except D4 wich doesnt downregulate when activated by a ligand and is the receptor wich causes the focus and anti ADD effects by activating the prefrontal cortex.
> 
> Some ppl do get completely tolerant to amphetamine's when used for SA or anything else, not everyone tough, but i beleive taking breaks in combination with memantine is the best approuch.
> 
> I'm going to be cautious, i dont want to find my working regime and then weeks later return saying it stopped working.


I've had a private discussion with rocknroll about this subject. I believe that the only good way to deal with the other dopamine receptors involved with sociability, reward and anxiety, is through an indirect approach. SSRI's or other serotonin enhancing medication would be such an approach, because there seems to be an up-regulation of dopamine receptors following SSRI treatment. More info here: http://www.mcmanweb.com/dopamine.html

This also makes perfect sense when you think about the biological role of these areas. Anxiety and depression are basically "learned" adaptations, and they can successfully be "unlearned", although it takes a long long (stress-free) time. The path towards getting our **** together is thus:

1. Find treatment for ADD, this severely lowers stress in all situations
2. Take some other stress-relieving medications
3. Try to do fun things with people, as much as you can
4. Cured

Note: this is an oversimplification.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Well, i disagree with that. (the indirect approuch).


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I also dont think social anxiety is something you have learned, atleast in some cases, those that have dopaminergic problems.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> I also dont think social anxiety is something you have learned, atleast in some cases, those that have dopaminergic problems.


I think what you and myself have is actually a compounded disorder, existing for the better part out of ADD-type processing deficits when dealing with people (especially emotional expressions). This is the unlearned part and should be treatable with ADD medication. In my opinion, tolerance should not develop for this part of the therapeutic benefits.

The other part is learned anxiety (mostly through avoidance) and altered social reward functioning, also learned behaviour. Dopamine enhancing medications will improve this as well initially, but tolerance does develop to these benefits. Changes to these systems/pathways will take some time.

crazyMed, I know you think you're cured now, but if the benefits lessen somewhat, please don't despair. I'm absolutely positive some changes take more time than you and me are willing to wait for.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'l elaborate:

Social anxiety mainly consists of dopaminergic problems and dopamine is highly implicated in social behavor, because of this we are unable to react socially in a normal way and thus unable to build a confidence, so SA and low confidence go hand in hand.

What we need to do is counteract the dopaminergic issues, and from that point on we are capable of building confidence and unlearn our fears.

Imo is the best approuch:
Something that releases dopamine: dexedrine
Something that upregulates the dopamine receptors: memantine (or SSRI's but i doubt the upregulation will be strong enough.

Once we fixed the neurological issue's, it goes as you said:
3. Try to do fun things with people, as much as you can
4. Cured


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

We do basically agree. Dopamine dysfunction is what caused all this and needs to be treated for anything else to work. I'm just not convinced that our reward pathways were all that dysfunctional since birth; our experiences changed that.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Edwin said:


> I think what you and myself have is actually a compounded disorder, existing for the better part out of ADD-type processing deficits when dealing with people (especially emotional expressions). This is the unlearned part and should be treatable with ADD medication. In my opinion, tolerance should not develop for this part of the therapeutic benefits.
> 
> The other part is learned anxiety (mostly through avoidance) and altered social reward functioning, also learned behaviour. Dopamine enhancing medications will improve this as well initially, but tolerance does develop to these benefits. Changes to these systems/pathways will take some time.
> 
> crazyMed, I know you think you're cured now, but if the benefits lessen somewhat, please don't despair. I'm absolutely positive some changes take more time than you and me are willing to wait for.


I have been an extensive user of MDMA in the past, on those moments i was able to unlearn my fears and anxiety, build a confidence and learn social skills, this is all done in my part because on MDMA itself and the day after MDMA i was cured of SA, and also went out with friends the whole time, that gave me the oppertunity to get social skills and get my confidence.

Now i'm just left with the dopamine issue.


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## doze (Aug 9, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> 40mg memantine


CrazyMed, have you noticed any changes in your longterm, short term memory or working memory on memantine?
or do you know any other memory booster drug?
i tried a lot diff drugs nothing works so far(

Because I have severe ADHD-PI and my memory is so bad,
i really do looks like a clown 
going one way then realising its wrong way then turning around and realising it was right way then turning around...
when i buy something in the store i often give money then i take the change and go away forgetting to take what i just piad for.
sometimes i forget to pay and exit the store(this can go wrong in grocery stores where counter do not block my way), guys in my local grocery know that and dont even pursue me anymore just laughing at me.
i cant give directions to people in my area where i live for long period of time, i have to refuse to do it because i basicly cant do it right
all this aggravated by my social anxiety makes me an absolute clown or just an imbecile.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Currently i'm side effect free, but the things you are describing sound like things that could happen during the brainfog adaptation phase.

You have ADD, do you take a stimulant? I think thats the best thing to fix up your cognition, memantine wont be very helpfull in that regard imo.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> I have been an extensive user of MDMA in the past, on those moments i was able to unlearn my fears and anxiety, build a confidence and learn social skills, this is all done in my part because on MDMA itself and the day after MDMA i was cured of SA, and also went out with friends the whole time, that gave me the oppertunity to get social skills and get my confidence.
> 
> Now i'm just left with the dopamine issue.


I too have confidence in my ability to undo my depression and anxiety once the dopamine issue is gone. Feels good doesn't it? We might be finally there.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Edwin said:


> I too have confidence in my ability to undo my depression and anxiety once the dopamine issue is gone. Feels good doesn't it? We might be finally there.


Yup, were close, tomorrow i have to go to work so i can see how good my regime works in real life.


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## doze (Aug 9, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Currently i'm side effect free, but the things you are describing sound like things that could happen during the brainfog adaptation phase.
> 
> You have ADD, do you take a stimulant? I think thats the best thing to fix up your cognition, memantine wont be very helpfull in that regard imo.


i started take adderall 2 weaks ago 
i've made report in your stimulant thread
now i take it accidently because my first weak was depressing i took small doses(10mg) initially felt better for few hours then crashed for the rest of the day.During the crashes my anxiety was significatly increased to the level of agarophobia(i read the same reports on this forum).
On higher dose(20mg) i havent crashed, but i did it only one time
Next day after i had used adderall i had no desire to take it again so a had 2 days off. And i took 20mg today and thats why i am being able to write this post.
so what about your memory om memantine?has it been improved?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

My memory is about the same on memantine right now, memantine significantly reduces amp crashes btw.


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## doze (Aug 9, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> My memory is about the same on memantine right now, memantine significantly reduces amp crashes btw.


 For crashes I usually take glycine sublingually(1g) works much better than benzos for me, 
but for last few days i didnt take it to see the diffirence
Also, have you thought about desoxyn(methamphetamine)?
it's on my wish list.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I cant get it, its not available in my country, i'm very interested in it, many ppl are concerned about neurotoxiticy but i would be comfortable using it.


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## rawrguy (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm quite worried about you perpetuating the idea that using these stimulants is completely safe and even "curable" route for social anxiety... I know that you are pretty much a "superman" when it comes to neurotoxicity because you said you barely feel it after taking MDMA and even feel better, but to many others, stimulants can do more harm than good. In your arguments with rocknroll about toxicity of stimulants, i am definitely on RnR's side because I've felt it myself and I know he can whip out sufficient evidence to support it (I would too probably if I actually got into pharmacology).



Edwin said:


> I've had a private discussion with rocknroll about this subject. I believe that the only good way to deal with the other dopamine receptors involved with sociability, reward and anxiety, is through an indirect approach. SSRI's or other serotonin enhancing medication would be such an approach, because there seems to be an up-regulation of dopamine receptors following SSRI treatment. More info here: http://www.mcmanweb.com/dopamine.html
> 
> This also makes perfect sense when you think about the biological role of these areas. Anxiety and depression are basically "learned" adaptations, and they can successfully be "unlearned", although it takes a long long (stress-free) time. The path towards getting our **** together is thus:
> 
> ...


First of all, I have to say that social anxiety and depression two VERY different things and should NOT be meshed together like that. Having one doesn't necessarily mean having the other although many people. Since this is a social anxiety board, social anxiety should be the main issue to be dealt with. Second, I agree mostly with what I quoted, especially the fact that anxiety and depression can be "unlearned" by a long period of time. However, this takes a lot of patience and in many cases a psychologist really helps in this matter because they can be very supportive in their advice in a world full of unsupportive people (every man for themselves as they say). Doing fun things with people as much as you can is a good approach, but to people with a social anxiety disorder, this is what causes it in the first place. This can also mean doing socially _safe_ things with _safe_ people (eg. your mums, pop, sister, brother, close friends) which doesn't even tackle the issue at hand unless you decide to break out of the "safe zone" while doing it. Finally, the truth is that overcoming social anxiety means putting one's self in highly stressful situations and learning to cope with them. Taking (safe) stress-relieving medications will only do so much and by thinking that a Med can take away most of the anxiety/pain, one can easily develop an addiction and dependence. This is why CBT or exposure therapy is the most effective way of overcoming this disorder.

Cured.



crayzyMed said:


> I'l elaborate:
> 
> Social anxiety mainly consists of dopaminergic problems and dopamine is highly implicated in social behavor, because of this we are unable to react socially in a normal way and thus unable to build a confidence, so SA and low confidence go hand in hand.
> 
> ...


I agree that dopamine is an issue that causes social anxiety because of the lack of reward and many have more problems with it than others. However, you need to realize that it is NOT the main issue. The main issue is forcing one's self to go out and do things that are out of one's "safe zone" and face the high chance (especially high with a SA'er) of rejection and humiliation and realize by the end of the day that it's all in your head. The last part of what I said is important to prevent depression. Also, I disagree that confidence and social anxiety do not necessarily come hand in hand just like depression and SA don't. For example, one can be confident about the way he or she looks and the person he/she is and still **** up social situations. Confidence for social situations is built through experience.


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## robtyl (Sep 2, 2010)

Great post, rawrboy64! 


Medication is fascinating and can be a great help, but it definitely is the 'easy' way out. As you said, experience and "unlearning" is the only long term solution. 

And that should be obvious. Most of the world's population doesn't have SA - that is, they don't need medication to interact socially. So it's not 'normal' to need medication. Even if one argues brain differences, that might not be entirely true - in 'safe' situations most SA people have no anxiety (such as when at home), so it really comes down to building up a tolerance threshold to being exposed to social situations.

As you said, this comes down to long-term determination and experience. It is 'hard work' though... and taking medication can be so much easier :b


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## rawrguy (Mar 29, 2008)

robtyl said:


> Great post, rawrboy64!


Thanks! 


> Medication is fascinating and can be a great help, but it definitely is the 'easy' way out.


From my experience with medications, they aren't even a 'easy' way out unless you plan on taking heroin, coke, E, and many other *dangerous*, addicting and brain damaging drugs. I understand what you're saying though. Medications (at least the safe ones. there aren't many good ones in the mainstream pharmacology) help the situational anxiety, but not the disorder itself. If there was a drug that took away anxiety without long term damaging repercussions, EVERYONE would be taking it for anything (some people say it's alcohol, but this is can be more dangerous and brain damaging than most meds)



> Even if one argues brain differences, that might not be entirely true


In my conversations with my pharm-head friends (including crazymed), I know that it is definitely true that people with SA and/or depression definitely have deficiencies in their brain compared to people without them. Everything else in your post I agree with. Developing "tolerance" (I call it coping) to anxiety in non-safe social situations is the best route to treating SA. CBT and/or exposure puts this into development.

EDIT: the deficiencies in the brain can be reversed by CBT and exposure


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> *I'm quite worried about you perpetuating the idea that using these stimulants is completely safe and even "curable" route for social anxiety... I know that you are pretty much a "superman" when it comes to neurotoxicity because you said you barely feel it after taking MDMA and even feel better, but to many others, stimulants can do more harm than good. In your arguments with rocknroll about toxicity of stimulants, i am definitely on RnR's side because I've felt it myself and I know he can whip out sufficient evidence to support it (I would too probably if I actually got into pharmacology).*


I'm not a superman when it comes to MDMA toxiticy, in fact i suffer more comedowns then most other people, and MDMA causes toxiticy in the brain no doubt about that, this has been shown in human study's (for example the thalamys study).

Your talking about your experience with MDMA here and that off rocknroll's, therapeutic doses of stimulants are a completely differend ballgame and are prescribed to a immense ammount of people worldwide.



> *First of all, I have to say that social anxiety and depression two VERY different things and should NOT be meshed together like that. Having one doesn't necessarily mean having the other although many people. Since this is a social anxiety board, social anxiety should be the main issue to be dealt with. Second, I agree mostly with what I quoted, especially the fact that anxiety and depression can be "unlearned" by a long period of time. However, this takes a lot of patience and in many cases a psychologist really helps in this matter because they can be very supportive in their advice in a world full of unsupportive people (every man for themselves as they say). Doing fun things with people as much as you can is a good approach, but to people with a social anxiety disorder, this is what causes it in the first place. This can also mean doing socially safe things with safe people (eg. your mums, pop, sister, brother, close friends) which doesn't even tackle the issue at hand unless you decide to break out of the "safe zone" while doing it. Finally, the truth is that overcoming social anxiety means putting one's self in highly stressful situations and learning to cope with them. Taking (safe) stress-relieving medications will only do so much and by thinking that a Med can take away most of the anxiety/pain, one can easily develop an addiction and dependence. This is why CBT or exposure therapy is the most effective way of overcoming this disorder. *


Exposure doesnt work for everyone, in fact my confidence at the moment is high, i have all my social skills and we both know how long ive been at a certain place with constant social exposure where i couldnt get out of, i wont go into detail but youll know what i mean, besides that i used to go out with my friends on a DAILY basis every evening for a long time, when there are dopaminergic issue's no matter wat, exposure wont work (but that doesnt occur with everyone.



> I agree that dopamine is an issue that causes social anxiety because of the lack of reward and many have more problems with it than others. However, you need to realize that it is NOT the main issue. The main issue is forcing one's self to go out and do things that are out of one's "safe zone" and face the high chance (especially high with a SA'er) of rejection and humiliation and realize by the end of the day that it's all in your head. The last part of what I said is important to prevent depression. Also, I disagree that confidence and social anxiety do not necessarily come hand in hand just like depression and SA don't. For example, one can be confident about the way he or she looks and the person he/she is and still **** up social situations. Confidence for social situations is built through experience.


Like ive said the realisation thats it all in my head have i got rhid of a long time ago, i dont care what people think, i am confident, when my friends ask me out i go with them, however when you constantly feel uncomfortable around other ppl no matter how much exposure nothing else then taking meds can be done.

Besides that you know how bad my ADHD is and what trouble it caused me, only for that i would need a stimulant.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

rawrboy64 said:


> (some people say it's alcohol, but this is can be more dangerous and brain damaging than most meds)


Well yeah, for some people alcohol works, not for me, why? My SA isnt based on irrational fears, alcohol makes me not care but i dont care in the first place, i do beleive that ppl where excessive fear is the root cause of anxiety CBT can be of utility to unlearn those fears, but we also have the one's with severe dopaminergic issue's and for those meds are the only way to go.


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## rawrguy (Mar 29, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> I'm not a superman when it comes to MDMA toxiticy, in fact i suffer more comedowns then most other people, and MDMA causes toxiticy in the brain no doubt about that, this has been shown in human study's (for example the thalamys study).
> 
> Your talking about your experience with MDMA here and that off rocknroll's, therapeutic doses of stimulants are a completely differend ballgame and are prescribed to a immense ammount of people worldwide.


I'm not going to argue with this mainly because I don't know enough about pharmacology to for now. I know MDMA and therapeutic doses of stimulants are completely different, but we both know that there are risks of brain damage in stimulants (dexedrine, adderall, etc.)



> Exposure doesnt work for everyone, in fact my confidence at the moment is high, i have all my social skills and we both know how long ive been at a certain place with constant social exposure where i couldnt get out of, i wont go into detail but youll know what i mean, besides that i used to go out with my friends on a DAILY basis every evening for a long time, when there are dopaminergic issue's no matter wat, exposure wont work (but that doesnt occur with everyone.
> 
> Like ive said the realisation thats it all in my head have i got rhid of a long time ago, i dont care what people think, i am confident, when my friends ask me out i go with them, however when you constantly feel uncomfortable around other ppl no matter how much exposure nothing else then taking meds can be done.
> 
> Besides that you know how bad my ADHD is and what trouble it caused me, only for that i would need a stimulant.


I'm not going to be an unsolicited therapist nor am I going to try to pretend to know what you're going through (especially with your ADHD). All I am going trying to do right now is expose the fact that there is a risk factor in stimulants. One in which, in my opinion, is not worth the risk.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

The benefits outweigh the risks of stimulants. My social anxiety, and crazyMeds' as well, is a direct extension of the genetic disorder called ADHD/ADD. Stimulants are the only way to compensate for this.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

rawrboy64 said:


> but we both know that there are risks of brain damage in stimulants (dexedrine, adderall, etc.)


Memantine + antioxidants would counteract the already-negligible neurotoxic potential of stimulants.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

rawrboy64 said:


> I'm not going to argue with this mainly because I don't know enough about pharmacology to for now. I know MDMA and therapeutic doses of stimulants are completely different, but we both know that there are risks of brain damage in stimulants (dexedrine, adderall, etc.)
> 
> I'm not going to be an unsolicited therapist nor am I going to try to pretend to know what you're going through (especially with your ADHD). All I am going trying to do right now is expose the fact that there is a risk factor in stimulants. One in which, in my opinion, is not worth the risk.


How much braindamage stimulants cause is unknown, fact is that they are being prescribed to a immense ammount of people, and on ADDforums you can find a ton of people that have taken amphetamine's long term and they are still fine, everyone in the ADHD studie's are also fine, if they caused major damage we would have known by now.

But thats it regarding toxiticy in my topic, if you wish make a new topic about it so we can adress the benefits and risks (wich would also be of benefit for the other members here) but i dont want my thread to end in a amphetamine toxiticy debate.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Edwin said:


> The benefits outweigh the risks of stimulants. My social anxiety, and crazyMeds' as well, is a direct extension of the genetic disorder called ADHD/ADD. Stimulants are the only way to compensate for this.


Yes, exactly many of us have ADHD as the root cause and there's no therapy that can adress that, another ammount of people have anxiety caused by low confidence, too many fears, overactive amygdala etc, those can benefit from therapy and exposure.

For example this study demonstrates that with dopaminergic trouble social anxiety can be triggered (while not altering their confidence or inducing irratial fears, dopamine is crucial for social interaction.


> School avoidance and social phobia triggered by haloperidol in patients with Tourette's disorder
> 
> EJ Mikkelsen, J Detlor and DJ Cohen
> 
> Fifteen patients with Tourette's disorder developed school and work avoidance syndromes when treated with low doses (mean 2.5 mg/day) of haloperidol for short periods of time (mean, 8 weeks). The phobic syndromes disappeared completely with discontinuation or reduction of the haloperidol dose. Haloperidol's effects on dopaminergic functioning support a role for catecholamines in the pathogenesis of phobic syndromes. It is not known whether phobias are precipitated by haloperidol only in patients with Tourette's disorder as a consequence of the specific metabolic alterations in this disorder or are a medication side effect in other psychiatric disorders as well.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Well my combo worked great at work today, but it seems i need 30mg of dexedrine 3 times a day to get fully cured, i felt cured i didnt feel high at all, but i was talking the whole time with the guy i was working with and i really enjoyed social interaction. I also need to cut back on the xanax dose as it made me WAY to loopy.

Right now i just feel "normal" and not high, wich is everything i would wish for, regular breaks will be taken from my regime, heck id even be happy if i could only use it twice a week to go out with my friends.


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## Ehsan (Mar 21, 2009)

i haven't tried real stimulants yet but i agree with edwin.
indirect methods are far better but not ssris.
maois are the best option:
irreversible maoi-b + reversible maoi-a


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ehsan said:


> i haven't tried real stimulants yet but i agree with edwin.
> indirect methods are far better but not ssris.
> maois are the best option:
> irreversible maoi-b + reversible maoi-a


I have to disagree, MAOI's have no utility in ADHD, besides that mao inhibition isnt really an indirect method, it raises dopamine directly like stimulants.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> I have to disagree, MAOI's have no utility in ADHD, besides that mao inhibition isnt really an indirect method, it raises dopamine directly like stimulants.


In fact, I'm fairly sure the only reason people with neurological disorders (like ADD etc) are doing well on Nardil and Parnate in the long term is for two reasons:

- Nardil works on GABA
- Parnate acts as a stimulant

If they did not, these meds would probably be useless for these people within a few weeks. It's also the reason mono-treatment with Rhodiola Rosea didn't work for me, apart from the amazing first weeks. I also suspect Parnate might be the favourite for people really suffering from the ADD/ADHD disorder (with dysfunction extended to brain areas involved in social function).


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Well my combo worked great at work today, but it seems i need 30mg of dexedrine 3 times a day to get fully cured, i felt cured i didnt feel high at all, but i was talking the whole time with the guy i was working with and i really enjoyed social interaction. I also need to cut back on the xanax dose as it made me WAY to loopy.
> 
> Right now i just feel "normal" and not high, wich is everything i would wish for, regular breaks will be taken from my regime, heck id even be happy if i could only use it twice a week to go out with my friends.


Well now you're getting closer to what I consider an ideal treatment. High dose dexedrine I reckon necessary, while I have no interest in using benzo's. I doubt our GABA systems are (neurologically/genetically) involved.

I'm worried about tolerance though, although I'm still not sure whether it really exists or is something preventable / surmountable (without using Memantine). Functioning twice a week doesn't sound like such a good deal to me, when others function 7 days a week.

As I said before, since Nicotine seems an effective tool in taking care of some of the ADD/ADHD symptoms without tolerance occuring to many of its benefits, I don't see why other stimulants would act differently. Lack of motivation seems to be a serious problem though, even when using nicotine. Tolerance occurring to the motivational effects seems generally to be the major problem of stimulant use.


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## Ehsan (Mar 21, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> I have to disagree, MAOI's have no utility in ADHD, besides that mao inhibition isnt really an indirect method, it raises dopamine directly like stimulants.


 but i haave not heard about maoi tolerance.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

It is something preventable with the combination of memantine and small breaks, i know a guy that used the combo for 2 years now, 40mg of memantine and one day off the amp a week, the tolerance problem wich he first had never returned.

I think memantine is essential for that.

I agree on GABA i only use it to take the edge of the amphetamine, it doesnt do anything more except make me loopy and lose balance, absolutely no help for SA.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Ehsan said:


> but i haave not heard about maoi tolerance.


http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/can-medication-ever-work-90575/


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Edwin said:


> As I said before, since Nicotine seems an effective tool in taking care of some of the ADD/ADHD symptoms without tolerance occuring to many of its benefits, I don't see why other stimulants would act differently. Lack of motivation seems to be a serious problem though, even when using nicotine. Tolerance occurring to the motivational effects seems generally to be the major problem of stimulant use.


I did get completely tolerant to nicotine before and all benefits turned into irritability, memantine completely halted this up till now.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> I did get completely tolerant to nicotine before and all benefits turned into irritability, memantine completely halted this up till now.


I'll let you know how my trial with nicotine patches goes.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I recently moved to a full patch and like the benefits, also seems calming in a way.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> I recently moved to a full patch and like the benefits, also seems calming in a way.


Well, nicotine causes the release of: acetylcholine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, vasopressin, arginine, dopamine, autocrine agents, and beta-endorphin.

Useful.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yup, nicotine is good stuff, unfortionally it does dysregulate the dopamine system as other drugs of abuse:



> Association of Low Striatal Dopamine D2 Receptor Availability With Nicotine Dependence Similar to That Seen With Other Drugs of Abuse
> 
> OBJECTIVE: All drugs of abuse induce a phasic dopamine release within the striatum that does not undergo habituation. Prolonged substance consumption impairs the natural function of the mesolimbic dopamine system, as shown by a decrease in the availability of striatal dopamine 2 (D2) receptors in patients suffering from cocaine, heroin, amphetamine, and alcohol dependence. However, it is unclear whether similar changes can also be observed in heavy-smoking nicotine-dependent smokers. METHOD: In vivo D2/D3 receptor availability was determined with [ 18F]fallypride positron emission tomography in 17 heavy-smoking nicotine-dependent subjects and in 21 age-matched never-smoking comparison subjects. The smokers were scanned twice: first, during a period of usual consumption and second, 24 hours after smoking cessation. RESULTS: Independent of the withdrawal status, the nicotine-dependent smokers displayed significantly less availability of D2/D3 receptors within the bilateral putamen functionally covering parts of the dorsal striatum, as compared to the never-smoking subjects. Nicotine craving under the consumption condition correlated positively with D2/D3 receptor availability within the ventral striatum but negatively with D2/D3 receptor availability within the anterior cingulate and inferior temporal cortex. CONCLUSIONS: Similar to other types of substance abuse, nicotine dependence is associated with low availability of dorsal striatal D2/D3 receptors. In contrast to previous findings on abstinent alcohol-dependent patients, nicotine craving seems to be maintained by a region-specific shift in D2/D3 receptor availabilities, with higher availability within the ventral striatum but lower availability within the anterior cingulate and inferior temporal cortex.


I beleive this also occured to me when i used it without memantine, so far no problem.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

Higher availability in the ventral striatum (nucleus accumbens) means higher reward potential and pleasure experience. This is consistent with the therapeutic benefits of smoking I see in relatives and friends suffering from ADD.

The putamen is involved with motor function, learning and the experience of hate/disgust. Lesser function here is a shame, but I doubt it has any serious consequences.

The inferior temporal cortex is involved with certain visual processing. Not really interesting.

The anterior cingulate is pretty important but I'm not sure what consequences this has.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

One of my friends who I suspect has ADD, uses only excessive smoking, excessive coffee-intake + excessive sugar consumption to get rid of most of his problems.

He isn't exactly what we would call cured, but is way more functional than I am, able to hold a job and have a girlfriend. It's possible that he has less severe baseline symptoms though.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Edwin said:


> Higher availability in the ventral striatum (nucleus accumbens) means higher reward potential and pleasure experience. This is consistent with the therapeutic benefits of smoking I see in relatives and friends suffering from ADD.


Or higher craving, trust me, the rewarding effects of nicotine will vanish, some motivational anti ADD affects could remain yeah.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

Well I don't want nicotine to feel rewarding, I want nicotine to help me make other things feel rewarding.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Edwin said:


> Well I don't want nicotine to feel rewarding, I want nicotine to help me make other things feel rewarding.


Thats what i ment, initially helped with music appreciation and other stuff, but that turned in irritability only for me.


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## Payn (Sep 15, 2008)

CrayzyMed, Can I ask you, How did you get a prescription for Dexedrine when you are from Belgium ? Is it possible to get a prescription for it in EU ?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Payn said:


> CrayzyMed, Can I ask you, How did you get a prescription for Dexedrine when you are from Belgium ? Is it possible to get a prescription for it in EU ?


You can get a prescription for it in europe.


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## forever (Oct 7, 2009)

how exactly does memantine prevent MAOI tolerance or any drug combination tolerance ?

memantine is a dopamine agonist, so does that mean u can use pramipexole aka. mirapex which is another dopamine agonist, to prevent tolerance


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

By being an NMDA receptor antagonist.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

forever said:


> how exactly does memantine prevent MAOI tolerance or any drug combination tolerance ?
> 
> memantine is a dopamine agonist, so does that mean u can use pramipexole aka. mirapex which is another dopamine agonist, to prevent tolerance


It upregulates several receptors such as the dopamine receptors wich prevents them from being downregulated by activated by a ligand.

No its the NMDA antagonist that does that, the dopamine agonism has nothing to do with it.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm considering upping my memantine dose to 60mg a day.


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## Timboslice (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm glad that your setup has you feeling much better CrazyMed, its an interesting one, and the addition of AMT alongside everything else has me pretty interested in its continuation. 

I'm confused, a bit, about upping the memantine? Is it a manner of increasing the effectiveness of other meds in your mix, or preventing a tolerance to them via the NMDA? I guess thats the part that is confusing, The fact that it helps with tolerance is cool, but don't you eventually become tolerant to memantine? That stuff is pretty expensive.

Though, can't put a price on feeling normal. Continued success bud.


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## Banana Cream (Aug 22, 2010)

Note: MDMA neurotoxicity studies were finally admitted to be a complete fraud in the earlier part of the decade. The scientists admitted that the animals were given outlandish amounts of methamphetamine, not MDMA at all. 

Because of this, new research was funded to find out the real statistics. I was signed in the first trials, but had to drop out eventually based on history.

AMT prescribed when and where? I hope you document your experiences.

Dexedrine was mentioned as being prescribed in Europe? Where? My friend and her husband tried to refill their Adderall all over Europe and they were told it was not available. I told her to switch to Dexedrine and her health practitioner laughed in Switzerland, told her ADD was made up by Americans, and refused to prescribe for imaginary disorder.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Timboslice said:


> I'm glad that your setup has you feeling much better CrazyMed, its an interesting one, and the addition of AMT alongside everything else has me pretty interested in its continuation.
> 
> I'm confused, a bit, about upping the memantine? Is it a manner of increasing the effectiveness of other meds in your mix, or preventing a tolerance to them via the NMDA? I guess thats the part that is confusing, The fact that it helps with tolerance is cool, but don't you eventually become tolerant to memantine? That stuff is pretty expensive.
> 
> Though, can't put a price on feeling normal. Continued success bud.


There's no tolerance to the anti tolerance effect of memantine, at 40mg it works wonders for tolerance unfortionally i'm also a raver and mdma induces a cross tolerance with my other stuff, perhaps a higher memantine dose could help.
If not i take breaks anyway, it wont be a problem.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Banana Cream said:


> Note: MDMA neurotoxicity studies were finally admitted to be a complete fraud in the earlier part of the decade. The scientists admitted that the animals were given outlandish amounts of methamphetamine, not MDMA at all.
> 
> Because of this, new research was funded to find out the real statistics. I was signed in the first trials, but had to drop out eventually based on history.
> 
> ...


Ive posted a complete overview of mdma toxiticy in this thread:
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/1533903-post14.html
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/1533904-post15.html

There is evidence for some damage and some cognitive decline, but emotional problems dont appear to be associated with mdma abuse only (but those study's are small and some individuals susceble for depression can get long term problems from it.

AMT isnt in clinical use atm, i ordered it as a research chem. Adderall isnt in europe, dex is, that doc your mentioning sounds like a complete retard btw.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Memantine also takes care of stimulant anxiety and crashes so a higher dose could help with that too.


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

Where do you guys get memantine? Isn't it exorbitantly expensive? 

I think its fantastic the interest you are taking and the work and research you guys are doing here but I just wanted to remind you (in case you had forgotten) to keep in mind that there are many other factors which we (re: proven science) still do not have understanding of regarding the brain. Make sure to keep open minds and don't rush to conclusions too quickly. One example that could (potentially) invalidate some or all of your theories of treatment or basis of knowledge for these disorders is failing to adequately explore the extremely complex and very deep levels of brain development which takes place while within the womb as well as early years of childhood and how this development affects our life long psychology. 

For example: my mother cried constantly for the 9 months I was in the oven because my dad told her that he would leave her when I was born. What kind of effects did this highly emotionally unstable and stressful environment which I developed in have on the most basic formation of the trillions upon trillions of synapses which my brain grew during this period? Is it not reasonable to assume that this dysfunctional period of complex growth will require more (outside the box) scientific research (and vastly differently behaving meds) to truly understand and treat? Current methods of therapy and meds can work (especially when used symbiotically) to help people find more balanced and happy mindsets but our understanding of the brain is still less than infantile at this point. 

I view the possibility as extremely likely that traumatic levels of hormones and stress during these earliest developmental periods of the human brain which lay the blue print for ones emotional subconscious could in fact not be 'cure-able' (achieving relatively balanced mental health) by any kind of therapy whatsover. That would be like telling a person with alzheimers disease that they just need to do a crap ton of sudoku puzzles or something. Well.... we UNDERSTAND alzheimers now (on a basic level) so we wouldn't do that... but I worry about seeing people on here making irresponsible conclusions based on little evidence other than personal experience. There is nothing concretely universal about our brains or how they work from individual to individual. They are far too adaptive and reactive for that. They are each deeply unique and the ignorance is insulting when people insinuate in even the slightest way that they 'KNOW' fully what the problem is or how to cure someone elses mental malady. There are no omnipotent beings on this forum. Science is the closest thing we have to a real god so I think it wise to keep it science based. 

By all means keep on with the intelligent research. It is righteous, worthwhile, vital, noble, and empathetic. Again, I humbly remind you that you all are formulating THEORIES (many of them quite brilliant). However the second you become assured of your own observational theories to the point where you wont keep a totally open mind to others people's theories (in other words you aren't FULLY prepared to accept your own theory as 100% wrong, once proven so) is the exact moment you stop making progress to unlocking the real truths within our brains. Keep up the great work guys and thanks for tolerating another one of my rants! Peace!


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

Banana Cream said:


> Dexedrine was mentioned as being prescribed in Europe? Where? My friend and her husband tried to refill their Adderall all over Europe and they were told it was not available. I told her to switch to Dexedrine and her health practitioner laughed in Switzerland, told her ADD was made up by Americans, and refused to prescribe for imaginary disorder.


I've been able to get Dexedrine prescribed in the Netherlands. It is prescribed here commonly as an alternative to Ritalin.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm going to reconsider my use of benzo's, they make me loopy and feel drugged out and lose balance when i'm walking around, the effect on amp anxiety is minimal.

The anxiety i get from the amt and amp combo is completely simular to that of NE releasers so i'm going to add in guanfacine wich reduces NE and on top of that also has proven effiacy in ADHD.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

KurtG85 said:


> Where do you guys get memantine? Isn't it exorbitantly expensive?
> 
> I think its fantastic the interest you are taking and the work and research you guys are doing here but I just wanted to remind you (in case you had forgotten) to keep in mind that there are many other factors which we (re: proven science) still do not have understanding of regarding the brain. Make sure to keep open minds and don't rush to conclusions too quickly. One example that could (potentially) invalidate some or all of your theories of treatment or basis of knowledge for these disorders is failing to adequately explore the extremely complex and very deep levels of brain development which takes place while within the womb as well as early years of childhood and how this development affects our life long psychology.
> 
> ...


Well, i agree whit what your saying here.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Memantine is very cheap when ordered online, 10 dollar for 30 pills of 10mg.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Banana Cream said:


> Dexedrine was mentioned as being prescribed in Europe? Where? My friend and her husband tried to refill their Adderall all over Europe and they were told it was not available. I told her to switch to Dexedrine and her health practitioner laughed in Switzerland, told her ADD was made up by Americans, and refused to prescribe for imaginary disorder.


They use it in the UK:

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000742.html


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm playing around with ropinirole on my combo, may augment it a bit.


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## rawrguy (Mar 29, 2008)

Kurt: if I'm not mistaken, you've said before that u suffer from propecia-induces depression? That kind isn't curable through medication...


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

rawrboy64 said:


> Kurt: if I'm not mistaken, you've said before that u suffer from propecia-induces depression? That kind isn't curable through medication...


? I said I tried propecia for hair loss and found that it lead to me feeling and acting very reactionary and aggressive. I theorized (and researched) this was a result of the increased amounts of testosterone present in my body due to propecia's mechanism of preventing so much testosterone from being broken down into DHT (which apparently degrades the hair folicles rapidly).

Over aggression (an extremely heightened fight or flight response AKA panic) has always been the base of my psych issues to begin with. Propecia's reigniting of these issues was no good. My panic disorder manifested through aggression causes me to inevitably snap at people, at which point I feel ashamed, deeply guilty and of course I am then usually rejected and humiliated etc. (hence my development of social anxiety disorder). Then I consequently fall into a deep self loathing suicidal depression because I can't interact or develop any trust with anyone because my anger and sadness causes me to push them all away (if they don't 'push me away' first). This over aggression stopped when I stopped propecia and as a result so did this cascade into depression.

I disagree with the statement that this 'depression' I felt as a result of this chain of emotions from propecia is not treatable through other medications (the primary goal of which would be to cut down on this heightened aggression/panic response). Its just that I would much rather keep my sanity than my hair. 

A very depressing realization that came from this experience was that I found that so much of my motivation for things I used to enjoy but no longer did since starting meds like adderall and lexapro (both of which I have seen studies saying lower testosterone levels, and which my personal experiences with both seem to support) RETURNED while on propecia. Suddenly my deep appreciation for music returned, as did my sex drive, as did my athletic drive, as did other forms of motivation. Unfortunately I have found that whenever I find a med which gives me back the appreciation for these sensations, it also causes the aggression and panic to come back with it. :afr:mum


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

crayzyMed said:


> Memantine is very cheap when ordered online, 10 dollar for 30 pills of 10mg.


Could you hook me up with a link where you found this? I have looked around and can't find deals anywhere NEAR close to that. 
Appreciate it.


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## Timboslice (Jul 28, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I'm playing around with ropinirole on my combo, may augment it a bit.


Euphoria had a thread about it when I first started. I guess I'm just completely wary of dopamine agonists because of the reverse honeymoon period. I felt horrible for a week, well when I was awake that is. Not saying it'd do the same to you, or that it wouldn't be worth if after the fact.

Though if i can remember right, the Memantine kept that part going much longer than it should have?


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## mike8803 (Feb 21, 2010)

hey crazymed, have you ever tried Nardil at 90mg?

If your a social phobiac like most of us, it could help you but takes a while to get rid of the side effects, but can help MAJORLY.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

mike8803 said:


> hey crazymed, have you ever tried Nardil at 90mg?
> 
> If your a social phobiac like most of us, it could help you but takes a while to get rid of the side effects, but can help MAJORLY.


No i dont want MAOI's because i beleive my regime is much more effective, MAOI's dont work against ADHD, i want to eat what i want and i still want to rave.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Timboslice said:


> Euphoria had a thread about it when I first started. I guess I'm just completely wary of dopamine agonists because of the reverse honeymoon period. I felt horrible for a week, well when I was awake that is. Not saying it'd do the same to you, or that it wouldn't be worth if after the fact.
> 
> Though if i can remember right, the Memantine kept that part going much longer than it should have?


Dopamine releasers force dopamine despite autoreceptor activation, theoretically i should be able to get ropi to work right away, but i probably wont keep on taking it anyway, i found it to sedating yesterday.

Yes i cant adapt with memantine, but i was trying wheter on my regime it would work without it.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I readded selank into my regime, the combo of amphetamine and AMT caused too much anxiety, also high doses of amp werent a good idea they cause a bad crash the days afterwards, i want to feel absolutely normal the day i go on a break, to just chill out and stuff.

I'm now taking:
40mg memantine
7,5 mg AMT
5mg amphetamine 3/ day
3 x 3 sprays of selank (altough i dilated my silution, the 3 sprays i take now used to be 1,5 sprays).
Some xanax, the selank completely abolishes the cognitive impairment it causes.

I'm still waiting for the AMT to kick in so dunno wheter this combo cures me 100% its gonna be close either way, but i'm gonna stay lower on amp atleast for now, high dose amp make me too on edgy like i go crazy on a bussride or something instead of chilling out.

Took loads of benzo's daily for the past 3 weeks and dont notice any withdrawal, either its too early or the memantine helped?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> Memantine + antioxidants would counteract the already-negligible neurotoxic potential of stimulants.


I highly doubt that, however the immense ammount of anecdotal reports on long term amphetamine treatment indicate that toxiticy is very minimal, and the 2 year study's on ADHD patients also indicate that the toxiticy weve seen in the monkey study doesnt occur in humans. (ricourte is a rather dubious figure by the way).

But thinking that antioxidants inhibit neurotoxiticy is just wishfull thinking imo.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Benzo's are more of a pain in the *** then anything else, they give me sedation yet i want to do stuff, but the sedation is like anoying the whole time when you actively want to do stuff.
They also seem to make me depressed in higher doses.

Selank works better for anxiety, so i'm dropping the benzo's, may try gabapentin or acamprosate if i need something extra to take the edge of the amp/AMT.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Dropped benzo's, doesnt work good, too much sedation, sometimes depressing, used extensively for the past 3 or 4 weeks, no withdrawal must be lucky of memantine was helping.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm glad you're dropping benzo's. Your treatment now will be very similar to my final treatment (maybe somewhat less MAO-inhibition), and so we can compare results and evaluate the therapeutic benefits. Exciting!


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

I've been relying on benzos (ativan) for the last couple weeks since running out of lexapro. 

My perspective has honestly changed a bit in that I find them more helpful than I originally thought. Of course I had never really given them a chance before. However the sedation you guys mention is definitely there, and every now and again i find myself nearly falling over out of nowhere. Of course, I'm always open to better options. Ima have to do some research on that "Selank" you mentioned Crayzymed. 

What has been your specific experience with its effects on your mood?


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

KurtG85 said:


> I've been relying on benzos (ativan) for the last couple weeks since running out of lexapro.
> 
> My perspective has honestly changed a bit in that I find them more helpful than I originally thought. Of course I had never really given them a chance before. However the sedation you guys mention is definitely there, and every now and again i find myself nearly falling over out of nowhere. Of course, I'm always open to better options. Ima have to do some research on that "Selank" you mentioned Crayzymed.
> 
> What has been your specific experience with its effects on your mood?


It definatly boosts my mood but i'm not really depressed in the first place, its also relaxing.
Its currently unavailable to find online, it was custom synthed by someone but he stopped taking it and solled everything to me, you can buy a sample of me if you want, for a month trial.

I would stop taking benzo's mate, the dependency isnt worth it from what ive read, im glad i stopped them.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Selank works by blocking degradation of the body's enkaphaline's wich are agonists at the opiate delta receptors, delta receptors are an interesting target for depression and anxiety.

Its currently still in clinical trials, but in a far stadium.



> Selank (Russian: Cеланк) is a nootropic, anxiolytic peptide based drug developed by the Institute of Molecular Genetics of the Russian academy of sciences. Selank is a heptapeptide with the sequence Thr-Lys-Pro-Arg-Pro-Gly-Pro. It is a synthetic analogue of a human tetrapeptide tuftsin.
> In clinical trials the drug has shown to provide a sustained nootropic and anxioytic effect, which is useful for the treatment of generalized anxiety disorder (GAD). Selank has an advantage over traditional anxiety treatments such as benzodiazepines as it has no sedating or cognitive side effects and no associated addiction or withdrawal syndrome. Selank also has very low toxicity with an overdose proving harmless even up to 500 times the effective dose. When released the drug will be used as a 0.15% aqueous solution which is applied to the nasal mucosa in drops. It is thought that this is the best method for absorbing peptide based drugs. The drug can be used to suppress feelings of fear and anxiety in people with anxiety disorders and to stimulate learning and memory in healthy people.
> As of 2010, the drug has completed stage III clinical trials in Russia and is currently waiting to be authorized for general use in that region. It is unknown if the drug will be marketed in the West or other world regions at this stage.
> Selank is closly related to another drug nootropic drug, Semax, also developed by the Institute of Molecular Genetics in Russia. This drug is currently available in Russian/Ukrainian pharmacies.[1]


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## KurtG85 (Sep 19, 2008)

Not much point in trying it till I can get a steady supply but I appreciate the offer. And be real careful, that can get you narced, but maybe not in your country. Thanks again.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

KurtG85 said:


> Not much point in trying it till I can get a steady supply but I appreciate the offer. And be real careful, that can get you narced, but maybe not in your country. Thanks again.


Its completely uncontrolled and actually a legal supplement, even in the US importing it shouldnt be a problem.


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## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Yeah but offering to sell substances on a public forum ain't the best of ideas.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> Yeah but offering to sell substances on a public forum ain't the best of ideas.


Dude, its just like offering a bottle of rhodiola, no problem.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

I have several bottles of magic air, once breathed in by an alpha male. Care to buy? Special discount for you!


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Edwin said:


> I have several bottles of magic air, once breathed in by an alpha male. Care to buy? Special discount for you!


lol


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I think i'm just gonna cycle btw amphetamine and AMT, the combo makes me too edgy actually and isnt really productive, on its own i find AMT FAR FAR superior to amphetamine, the only problem is that for full remission i have to up the dose in the psychedelic range, but you get tolerant to those effect so will try a slow titration.

AMT is the best thing ive ever tried, amp doesnt compare in any way.


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## Edwin (Jun 19, 2008)

Take it more slowly, crazyMed, it has sometimes taken me weeks before I got stable results on stimulating stuff.


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## kratos (Nov 16, 2010)

rawrguy said:


> I agree that dopamine is an issue that causes social anxiety because of the lack of reward and many have more problems with it than others. However, you need to realize that it is NOT the main issue. The main issue is forcing one's self to go out and do things that are out of one's "safe zone" and face the high chance (especially high with a SA'er) of rejection and humiliation and realize by the end of the day that it's all in your head. The last part of what I said is important to prevent depression. Also, I disagree that confidence and social anxiety do not necessarily come hand in hand just like depression and SA don't. For example, one can be confident about the way he or she looks and the person he/she is and still **** up social situations. Confidence for social situations is built through experience.


 I know this is an old topic but I wholeheartedly disagree with much you have said in this paragraph. Firstly, I think that dopamine CAN be the main issue. Take people with ADHD-PI who have low dopamine. I have it and it's hard to follow conversations in a group. You don't know what they are talking about, cannot contribute and feel disconnected with people. They also have low processing speeds http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a923102731~db=all~jumptype=rss
Even if you manage to follow conversations it's hard to think of things to say, you stutter, say the wrong things etc. and again become disconnected. These all lead to social anxiety. It's not a matter of fearing social situations for no reason it's because your brain is not wired to deal with them. This is a chemical imbalance in the brain, a lack of dopamine. ADHD meds increase dopamine and the D4 receptor does not downregulate i.e. users don't become tolerant to the anti-adhd effects, but become tolerant to the other prosocial, euphoric effects etc.

So now with that increase in dopamine, you can follow in conversations, you can process things and ultimately you become connected and do not fear social situations because you can deal with them. What I'm trying to say is that ADHD is a major role in SA and only meds can really help ADHD to correct the imbalance and so meds are needed for SA for those with ADHD.

When it is all in your head, that is a different thing, meds are not the answer, but often it is not just in our heads.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

^^ I completely agree


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## acejudas (Nov 24, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I think i'm just gonna cycle btw amphetamine and AMT, the combo makes me too edgy actually and isnt really productive, on its own i find AMT FAR FAR superior to amphetamine, the only problem is that for full remission i have to up the dose in the psychedelic range, but you get tolerant to those effect so will try a slow titration.
> 
> AMT is the best thing ive ever tried, amp doesnt compare in any way.


Now I'm really curious. What is AMT?


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## Canadian4Life (Sep 27, 2010)

For me a milligram of clonazepam a day, 60mg of ritalin (clonazepam and ritalin prescribed) and low doses of opiates cure me. Each of the three had their own benefits and make the combo that "cures" me..i'll never be "cured" but these drugs help me be cured from social anxiety,adhd and ptsd so I continue on taking them. I use codeine (120-240mg) a day which I buy over the counter which are 10mg of codeine each.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

acejudas said:


> Now I'm really curious. What is AMT?


AMT is an old sovjet antidepressant, its a combined serotonine, dopamine, norepinephedrine releaser combined with serotonine agonism (mostly 5HT2A), a simular mechanism as MDMA. Monoamine release is far more effective compared to reuptake inhibition, it also lasts all day.


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## Rbk (Aug 5, 2010)

AMT is popular psychedelic  Many guys in my country are using it when they can't get LSD :yes


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Rbk said:


> AMT is popular psychedelic  Many guys in my country are using it when they can't get LSD :yes


Yeah, ive never used it that way myself as i'm scared of psychedelics.


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## noname85 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Effexor plus guanfacine anyone????*

Hey.. 
My problem:

Effexor increased my anxiety (even though i waited two or three months to see if i will adjust to the drug.. still, it didnt go away) ... the higher the dose , the higher the social anxiety problem. Was ok for depression, motivation, and mainly it was the most "clear" drug in terms of my cognitive functions. Effexor's Social Anxiety may have to do with its action on norepinephrine(noradrenaline).

Paroxetine was fine for SA , but sedating/unmotivating, not the best for my depression/motivation.

Zoloft seems fine, but Effexor was better for motivation and everything seemed crystal-clear on it (cognition-wise). I mean.. with Effexor I do not feel that my studying abilities are a bit slower. While with Zoloft or especially with Paroxetine I do feel that foggy state.

Bupropion addition to Zoloft , combined, seems superb for depression but still I feel that the foggy state (when studying etc) doesnt go away despite the addition of bupropion. Also, sweaty palms etc and mild anxiety appears.. (less or similar anxiety/sweaty palms with what i experienced at LOW dose of effexor)

So...

Effexor seemed to be the most "clear" drug for my cognition.. U know, I was feeling like when I was not on any medication.. So I WANT TO BE ABLE TO USE MY 100% OF MY POTENTIAL WHEN STUDYING.. but it's sweaty palms/sympathetic system activation/SOCIAL ANXIETY that it causes is a drawback.

---ANYONE TRIED COMBINING EFFEXOR WITH GUANFACINE(TENEX/INTUIV/GENERIC) etc ?????
(to reduce effexor's S.A. / norepinephrine problems)---

ps1. Currently on 100mg Zoloft.. it seems fine, but still this SSRI "cognitive-fog" (even though it is much milder that paroxetine's cognitive-fog) is there.. Effexor didnt have that at all.. but s.a. increase(etc. etc.) was BAD.. so i quit effexor.

ps2. Gunafacine is still not marketed in Europe so I cannot obtain it... (and also I cannot find guanfacine online... it needs a U.S./Canadian doctor prescription). Clonidine makde me feel sedated and mainly depressed(a lot) when it was combined with effexor, though it stopped the sweating(!) etc etc..


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

Did you ever tried to add some piracetam to your zoloft ?


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## noname85 (Jan 9, 2011)

JohnG said:


> Did you ever tried to add some piracetam to your zoloft ?


nope... piracetam increase my anxiety... besides.. i am thinking effexor because it increased my motivation more than zoloft..

so i am trying to see if effexor+guanfacine would reduce the constant Norepinephrine side effects of effexor on me...

Guanfacine is not available in europe though


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## JohnG (Sep 3, 2010)

noname85 said:


> nope... piracetam increase my anxiety... besides.. i am thinking effexor because it increased my motivation more than zoloft..
> 
> so i am trying to see if effexor+guanfacine would reduce the constant Norepinephrine side effects of effexor on me...
> 
> Guanfacine is not available in europe though


The mental clarity + motivation of effexor is from the NE re-uptake, If you block it, how it will be useful to your aim ?


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## noname85 (Jan 9, 2011)

johng said:


> the mental clarity + motivation of effexor is from the ne re-uptake, if you block it, how it will be useful to your aim ?


... :sssss

guanfacine activates(an agonist)the alpha1 adrenergic receptorssssss.... Mimicking ne in the prefrontal cortex.

Like norepinephrine... Thus norepinephrine is reduced in the other parts of the brain... Bust still, the prefrontal cortex's alpha1 receptors remain activated. Also, since the ne re-uptake inhibition of effexor will continue to be active, the action of dopamine at the prefrontal cortex will increase (because in the pfc(!) the is a lack of dopamine transporters , thus dopamine uses the norepinephrine transporters, which, however, are blocked by effexor) (a ne-reuptake inhibitor increses both ne and dopamine at the pfc.. But not at the rest of the brain)

ps. I am pharmacist myself 

anyway!!! Anyone used the combination of effexor+guanfacine 
or zoloft+guanfacine ???


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> AMT is an old sovjet antidepressant, its a combined serotonine, dopamine, norepinephedrine releaser combined with serotonine agonism (mostly 5HT2A), a simular mechanism as MDMA. Monoamine release is far more effective compared to reuptake inhibition, it also lasts all day.


something that good must have toxicity we dont know about yet... my suspicions at least.


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## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Yup, nicotine is good stuff, unfortionally it does dysregulate the dopamine system as other drugs of abuse:
> 
> I beleive this also occured to me when i used it without memantine, so far no problem.


yes but it also sensitizes the brain to reward semi permanently so it makes up for lower D2 through permanent vta glutamatergic changes.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

noname85 said:


> ... :sssss
> 
> guanfacine activates(an agonist)the alpha1 adrenergic receptorssssss.... Mimicking ne in the prefrontal cortex.
> 
> ...


This may work, however have you tried wellbutrin? Its a NE releaser and may work better for ADHD, id assume it also causes dopamine release in the prefrontal cortex. Altough it may just have the same anxiety issues.

Adding guanfacine can be of alot help.


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> something that good must have toxicity we dont know about yet... my suspicions at least.


I'm trying to get the research papers, but still didnt find anyone that has acces to a university library. The toxicology database of russia didnt appear to report anything regarding AMT after 20 years of use, and abuse is a pleasable reason for is being withdrawn.

I suspect its toxiticy is on the same level as amphetamine's.

Either way i stopped taking it for now as i disliked the feel of the amp and AMT combination, and i cant raise the AMT dosage as i would get spaced out or psychedelic effects, however it was the only thing ever that managed to motivate me, amphetamine doesnt help my motivation at all, i suspect its because of the added serotonine release and 5HT2A agonism. AMT feels somewhat the same as low doses of 3FMC so may add that as a stimulant and maybe then avoid that dirty feel of amp added on AMT.

I would also like to experiment with 3FMC as a stimulant a bit, altough its a research chemical, but i dont care as much about daily RC use as i should.


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## noname85 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Guanfacine???*



crayzyMed said:


> This may work, however have you tried wellbutrin? Its a NE releaser and may work better for ADHD, id assume it also causes dopamine release in the prefrontal cortex. Altough it may just have the same anxiety issues.
> 
> Adding guanfacine can be of alot help.


Guanfacine is still not available on Europe at all :/

that's the problem

Helpless in that respect.. (And ve got piles of coursework to do here as well)


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

What about clonidine?

Have you considered stimulants?


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## noname85 (Jan 9, 2011)

*Guanfacine ?*



crayzyMed said:


> This may work, however have you tried wellbutrin? Its a NE releaser and may work better for ADHD, id assume it also causes dopamine release in the prefrontal cortex. Altough it may just have the same anxiety issues.
> 
> Adding guanfacine can be of alot help.





crayzyMed said:


> What about clonidine?
> 
> Have you considered stimulants?


tried them! Clonidine depress me and stimulants activate me as hell

none of them are recommended for me by my doc. Only guanfacine


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

noname85 said:


> tried them! Clonidine depress me and stimulants activate me as hell
> 
> none of them are recommended for me by my doc. Only guanfacine


What do you mean with activate you as hell? I get extreme paranoia from stims myself but i found a way around it.


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## noname85 (Jan 9, 2011)

crayzyMed said:


> What do you mean with activate you as hell? I get extreme paranoia from stims myself but i found a way around it.


ANXIETY that what I mean. They cause me increased anxiety.

I wonder if anyone could send me some guanfacine pills, even ten of them would do. To see how they they work on me and then perhaps go through the official burocratic procedure through the local ministry of health and import some for me steadily (but this usually may take over a year(!) .. Thus I wanna first see if it will be worth it before going through this procedure by trying/testing guanfacine beforehand..

Got it? Any help ANYONE ? ((


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## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

They caused my extreme anxiety as well, however i completely solved the problem with the addition of nebivlol and candesartan.


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