# Methylphenidate vs Dextroamphetamine



## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

For those who've been on both ideally, or just on the Dextroamphetamine (I only have personal experience with MPH):

How do they compare?

What are the pro's and con's of one in comparison to the other?

Dosage equivalency, I've found several claims, most of the time though the claim is that dextroamphetamine is 1.5 to 2 times stronger than MPH.

So is 100 mg MPH = 75 or 50 mg Dextroamphetamine?


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## billyho (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm not sure about the dosage equivalencies but from personal experience Ritalin is more peripherally stimulating whereas Dexedrin is more calming and enhances focus. Mind you these are at normal ADHD doses. If you take an excess of Dex, then it will be stimulating however still seems smother than Ritalin on the come downs.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

I've only been prescribed dextroamphetamine so can't really compare, only noticible side effects once it kicked in have been reduced appetite and harder falling asleep at night. Towards the beginning of treatment I had stuff like headaches and crashes but that went away. 

AFAIK it's twice as potent as Ritalin so the answer to your question would be 50mg.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Anyone who's been on the immediate release version? How long does it generally last for you?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Called my psychiatrist, informed her of the difference in cost of Ritalin vs the dextroamphetamine my pharmacy makes, €186 for Ritalin LA per month (would have been about €370 on an equal Concerta dosage) vs €26 for the Dex.

She knows I'm starting to get into trouble financially so this was a non-decision for both of us. On top of that, showing what a class act she really is, she told me should I ever really be unable to pay for our consultations, she would never drop me as her patient and do the consults free of charge.

Back ontopic now: since the duration of effect on paper is anywhere from 2 to 6 hours, I'll be trying out first and foremost how long it works for me and how many times I'll have to take it per day. And of somewhat lesser importance and mostly decided by the previous: the dose per capsule.

I've gotten 20 10mg caps, 10 20 mg caps and 10 30mg caps to explore the Dexamphetamine and hopefully in less than 2 weeks, I'll be on my optimal frequency and dose.

And you may not believe it: but I myself suggested limiting it to the official 60 mg maximum daily dosage in the first few weeks of taking it 

Overall: I'm already a lot less depressed because my wallet is as well lol


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

*Weak as far as effect is concerned, but very smooth and steady*

Took 3 10 mg IR caps in under 3 hours... not impressed, at all. It feels twice as weak as MPH rather than twice as strong.

It does seem to have the positive, and this is a major positive, of delivering a steady effect. None of the up's and down's of MPH, even the timed release forms. Concerta was the best at delivering a steady effect/blood levels of all MPH-versions but still, this is much better even.

The 60 mg/day limit of Dexamp will have to adapted though :yes


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

I find dexedrine more calming than stimulating. I do feel more alert mentally but not really in a get up and go sort of way. It lasts a few hours for me then just seems to fade out, I wish it lasted longer tbh.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

jim_morrison said:


> I find dexedrine more calming than stimulating. I do feel more alert mentally but not really in a get up and go sort of way. It lasts a few hours for me then just seems to fade out, I wish it lasted longer tbh.


I honestly don't feel anything and I've taken 60 mg IR in less than 3h today.

But from the get go it felt like the Lexapro was fighting the stimulant (Stahl's heroic synergism right...), and it won :blank


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## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

I honestly can't take anymore then 5mg lexapro with dexedrine otherwise i get seriously agitated.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

Inshallah said:


> I honestly don't feel anything and I've taken 60 mg IR in less than 3h today.
> 
> But from the get go it felt like the Lexapro was fighting the stimulant (Stahl's heroic synergism right...), and it won :blank


Hmm, yet you find Abilify stimulating? I guess stimulants aren't for you.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

jim_morrison said:


> Hmm, yet you find Abilify stimulating? I guess stimulants aren't for you.


It was when I took it on it's own. (5 mg)

I think it's just the Lexapro because so far I've found more experiences resembling mine (ssri counteracting a stimulant partly or entirely). And then I'm on 40 mg while most of the experiences I've read were on less Lexapro.

Someone's got a clue why, according to Stahl, they should act more like 1 + 1 = 3, while in practice, it turns out more like 1 + 1 = 0?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

"01-22-05, 05:33 PM
A couple years ago I took adderall for ADHD and it worked great. But, i stopped after a couple years due to weight loss. So then I was on zoloft for OCD and agoraphobia, and it was workin good for that, but concentration sucked, so i started adderall. The adderall and zoloft worked in conjunction for a day, thats all. The next day, BOTH MEDICINES STOPPED WORKING!! So, they switched me to lexapro. During the switch, the adderall worked for a couple days, but then stopped. They upped my dosage to 60 mg adderall a day, and it still didnt work. Not only did it not work, but i felt no side effects whatsoever (energy, loss of appetite, etc.) So, I was switched to dexedrine. I guess it worked for maybe a couple hours, but then suddenly stopped. So, my theory is that SSRIs and stimulants may counteract eachother is some cases. It would make sense though, since dopamine and seratonin levels have a see-saw effect (dopamine rises so seratonin lowers). People with OCD and ADHD have low dopamine AND seratonine. So, as the stimulant raises dopamine, the seratonine lowers. And as the SSRI raises the seratonine, the dopamine lowers, hence having no therapeutic use whatsoever. Now, this is only my theory and opinion and have no proven evidence, so u guys may argue both sides with cases and "evidence.""


"SWIM has been on Paxil for about 6 months now and has noticed that stimulants such as ephedrine/caffeine do not work nearly as effective as they were before SSRI treatment. SWIM seems to have to take more to get the same effect that SWIM used to before starting my SSRIs. 

Now some might theorize it is tolerance build up on caffeine and ephedrine, however this is not the case as SWIM has taken weeks at a time breaks and the effect of stimulants is still blunted.

Is this something unique to SWIM or do other people experience what SWIM is experiencing?"

The dextroamphetamine also seems a lot weaker than methylphenidate, again contrary to theory. The MPH's effect was also counteracted by the SSRI, but I still clearly felt it. I took 2 30 mg dexamp capsules about 2h ago and... nothing :no

I have no idea what to make of this, other than something I realized a while ago, SSRI's are potent at what they do. (love 'em or hate 'em, I've taken enough illicit substances while on an SSRI/SSRI to know how potent they are at neutralizing) 

Guess I'll have to hope one of the SNDRI's comes out soon and they've managed to get the N and the D up to level with the S somehow.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

This is 1 of the reasons why I don't understand, after having taken both, why Dexamph is considered twice as strong as MPH:

"17-12-2006 02:39
I don't intend to flame/hassle you here-ok, i'm no saint, but if you are crushing up and snorting 150!!mgs methyl, you may have a problem. Surly you are not scripted 150mgs a day?. I would have a good look at my situation if i was you, and think about seeking some kinda help, if it's an issue for you, and your nasal cavities.

To give some feedback on your question, i have used both meds, and know EXACTLY what you mean in requards to Dex being less motivating, it mellows me out, makes me lazy and larthergic-i just wanna lay on my bed. methyl, i find more motivating, and sharper, making me want to read intently and focus strongly on what interests me-i don't rail it. It, i, like many others find is that it forces you to focus, while Dex allows me to, but ONLY if i make a real effort to do so.

Good luck"

Mellows out, makes lazy and lethargic. Does the same thing to me. How is this then 2x as potent?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

*Hallelujah for it at least not being only my experience, I already feel better haha*

"dexedrine augmentation of ssri's - dennison

Posted by Bekka H. on April 1, 2002, at 19:35:15

In reply to dexedrine augmentation of ssri's , posted by dennison on April 1, 2002, at 14:22:44

Yet here's the quandry, many laboratory studies have shown ssri's to negate the psychomotor aspects of psychostimulants. Release of dopamine into nucleus accumbens etc wasn't blunted, nonetheless psychomotor effects were reduced to baseline, no behavior effect was generated. The negation of the psychomotor enhancing effects therefore, was obviously somehow down stream of the dopamine post synaptic receptors --reciprocal diminution by enhanced serotonin functioning of some manner

************************************************

Hi Dennison, I was just about to ask Dr. Kramer a similar question, so I'll wait to see his response to yours. The reason I'm writing now is that I wonder whether you have a citation (or two) for the above studies you referred to. I've been on several SSRI plus stimulant combos, and I've experienced what your post describes. In fact, at times, it feels like nearly complete negation of the positive aspects of BOTH drugs. It feels as if they are counteracting each other. If you have references readily available, I'd like to read them. Thanks so much.

Bekka"

"Hi Dennison,

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I certainly didn't anticipate that you would do all that work for me. I really appreciate it.

Have you ever read Joseph Glenmullen's PROZAC BACKLASH? He cites several studies in which SSRIs lowered dopamine levels by at least 50%!! When I read that, it confirmed what I had suspected all along. When I was on Wellbutrin and Zoloft, the Zoloft seemed to completely negate the motivation and energy that I'd gotten from WB alone. No matter how high I increased the WB dose (and I was up to the highest allowed dose), and no matter how low I kept the Zoloft, I just couldn't get back the drive and motivation I'd felt on WB alone. Then, later, when I was put on Dexedrine and Celexa, the SAME thing happened. I was on Dex first, and for a very long time, I was able to keep the Dex dose at 15 mg per day or lower. Within a few days after adding Celexa, however, I had to double the Dex dose, and within less than a month, all the benefits I'd gotten from Dex were gone. I had the WORST prostration and fatigue. I would slouch for hours and hours at a time. I developed the worst posture. I couldn't even stand up straight. I felt like a limp rag. I was very upset because I felt that Dexedrine had been very helpful to me. I probably would have developed a tolerance to it eventually anyway, but Celexa's adverse effects, and my attempt to counteract them by increasing Dex, hastened the development of Dex tolerance. I had to stay off of it for several months before I was able to benefit from it again. Consequently, I am very wary of these SSRI+stimulant combos. Not everyone responds the way I do to the combo; some do well on it, but I'd be careful. It's worth a try, but you really have to monitor yourself for ssri-induced apathy and wimpiness. I call ssri's "the wimpogenic drugs.""


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## GotAnxiety (Oct 14, 2011)

I get the same reaction. I don't really like taking it. Usually it makes concentration and depression worse days after taking it. Probably from down regulation of the recepters. That why I use it sparingly. Taking it all the time then you will just downgrade your recepter. Ritalin and any kinda Amps should just be used sparing no point in having high tolarance right?

Same thing goes for pretty much all drugs. Being on a high dose of both the brain will just adapt and try and return to a normal baseline with the drugs ultimately causing depression perhaps when coming off.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

GotAnxiety said:


> I get the same reaction. I don't really like taking it. Usually it makes concentration and depression worse days after taking it. Probably from down regulation of the recepters. That why I use it sparingly. Taking it all the time then you will just downgrade your recepter. Ritalin and any kinda Amps should just be used sparing no point in having high tolarance right?
> 
> Same thing goes for pretty much all drugs. Being on a high dose of both the brain will just adapt and try and return to a normal baseline with the drugs ultimately causing depression perhaps when coming off.


Since I've tried so many things already, there was no reason not to try one of the 2 available stimulants in my country. It's not like I'm anywhere close to having a normal life at the moment so tolerance etc., none of them could be issues atm 

The MPH certainly brought forth some (dopaminergic I can only assume) benefits I've never experienced before. So that was an obvious improvement BUT apart from making me more motivated to things again and as such, having an indirect AD-effect, it certainly is no antidepressant on it's own. (and I can only reasonably assume the same counts for Dexamphetamine)

So since Stahl has an SSRI + Stimulant combination, as one of his "heroic combos" for depression, I/we thought why not?

Unfortunately, the SSRI is almost completely canceling out the stimulants, both 120 mg MPH and now the same with over 100 mg Dextroamphetamine. There is nothing synergistic about this combination.

*For those with more knowledge on Pharmacology: why is it working out this way? I want explanations!  (so far I've found more user experiences such as mine, than succes stories so Stephen Stahl must be at least partly wrong by classifying this combination as synergistic) Also, does someone have Stahl's contact info? I want to tell him personally, how "heroic" his combo really is :spank *


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## Adams Journey (Nov 28, 2012)

Didn't have time to read the other posts but ive been on both and heres my feeling.

Dextroamphetamine ir- Lasts 4-6 hours and gives you well...a speedy feeling. Not that either of these drugs really feel natural but on dextroamps you really feel like you're on something the entire time. It does make you super outgoing to begin with. It made me constantly want to do things like clean my room, do my homework etc...

Methylphenidate (i have focalin the dextro isomer of ritalin)- Lasts 3-4 hours. Doesn't give you that speedy feeling. Makes you feel a lot smarter but didn't give me that boost to constantly be doing stuff. I have significantly less side effects on mph.

Also generally 5mg dextroamphetamine=5mg focalin(dextromethylphenidate)=7.5mg ritalin
At least from my experience.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Which of both is considered: 

1) the most dopamine boosting out of the 2
2) the least noradrenergic


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## Adams Journey (Nov 28, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> Which of both is considered:
> 
> 1) the most dopamine boosting out of the 2
> 2) the least noradrenergic


1. Dextroamphetamine works as both a dopamine reuptake inhibitor and dopamine releasing agent. Methylphenidate only works as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor so dextroamphetamine is more dopamine boosting.
2. Just from my experience, adderall is the most noradrenergic, dextroamphetamine is next and methylphenidate is the least.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Another question: I know MPH is "neuroprotective", while Dexamphetamine is "neurotoxic".

So asking which would be the better choice for long term use would at first sight be a rhetorical question. 

However, MPH is a lot harsher, more aggressive on the body and I'm sure on the mind as well. DA feels healthier/less unhealthy.

So would Dexamphetamine really be worse in case of long term usage? If so, why, apart from it being neurotoxic while MPH apparently isn't? (which I seriously doubt)


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## Adams Journey (Nov 28, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> Another question: I know MPH is "neuroprotective", while Dexamphetamine is "neurotoxic".
> 
> So asking which would be the better choice for long term use would at first sight be a rhetorical question.
> 
> ...


There really haven't been any studies on long term neurtoxic effects of amphetamines at dosages used for adhd. Essentially amps are neurotoxic because it releases and sustains so much dopamine in the neuron that it literally "excites" it to death. When you are taking amps in doses that are used for medical reasons instead of getting high then I doubt its going to excite to many if any neurons to death. Also if you are still worried you can portect the neurons using an NMDA antagonist like memantine which also will help fight off tolerance issues.


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## jim_morrison (Aug 17, 2008)

^That's my understanding too, amphetamine toxicity is mostly a process that takes place above the doses used to treat medical conditions. The data looks worse on the surface because a lot of recreational use type doses are being drawn on in the studies.
I've only seen one study which clearly points to a correlation between long term therapeutic use and potential neurotoxicity.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Adams Journey said:


> 1. Dextroamphetamine works as both a dopamine reuptake inhibitor and dopamine releasing agent. Methylphenidate only works as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor so dextroamphetamine is more dopamine boosting.
> 2. Just from my experience, adderall is the most noradrenergic, dextroamphetamine is next and methylphenidate is the least.


Makes perfect sense, you're making my choices much easier, thx Adam! :boogie


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Great news again.

*Adam and jim: would in your guestimations the above still hold true for DA doses af around 100? Let's say 120 mg/day (twice the current max dosage).*

Because after having experience with both, not only is the DA almost 8 times cheaper per month, it is a better drug all around. It definitely isn't "twice as potent" but the comparison is pointless, apples and oranges.

DA is smooth and gradual, has the same effect on your mood so that especially would be important for me when using it as an AD.

MPH, even all of the long acting versions, is harsher, causes more mood volatility + 8 times the cost of the other! And I'm fairly sure it's even unhealthier long term as well.


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## Adams Journey (Nov 28, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> Great news again.
> 
> *Adam and jim: would in your guestimations the above still hold true for DA doses af around 100? Let's say 120 mg/day (twice the current max dosage).*
> 
> ...


Theres really just not enough data/studies to support any claims that can be made about the actual dosage required for neurotoxicity to occur.

My thoughts about it are as follows (from an educated guess) its not so much the amount of the amphetamine used as it is the amount of dopamine that reacts with receptors. So if an individual is somewhat lacking in dopamine receptors due to tolerance, than theoretically more dopamine can be released (using a larger dosage of amphetamines) while still not having to much neurotoxicity. This is because although the dopamine release is larger, it will react less and therefore not cause excitotoxicity if less receptors are present to interact with the dopamine.


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## Adams Journey (Nov 28, 2012)

Are you using these drugs for social anxiey? Are you actually on a regimen of 120mg/a day?


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Treatment resistant depression Adams: I'm trying out the DA at the moment but until 4 or 5 days ago, I was on 3x 40 mg Ritalin LA yes.


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## Adams Journey (Nov 28, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> Treatment resistant depression Adams: I'm trying out the DA at the moment but until 4 or 5 days ago, I was on 3x 40 mg Ritalin LA yes.


Sorry, I didn't have access to a computer these last couple of days. Your pdoc actually prescribes ritalin for depression??? Is it effective? I noticed that out of the two, i got more euphoric from dexedrine than methylphenidate but that doesn't really last.


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## Inshallah (May 11, 2011)

Adams Journey said:


> Sorry, I didn't have access to a computer these last couple of days. Your pdoc actually prescribes ritalin for depression??? Is it effective? I noticed that out of the two, i got more euphoric from dexedrine than methylphenidate but that doesn't really last.


Yes she does! As stand alone meds, no. In combination with an AD, so far, after 4 weeks, a still very unconvinced maybe :teeth

I was already on 40 mg Escitalopram when I tried dextroamphetamine, but it does seem like the better of the two to use in a combination AD. MPH is a bit too harsh for that purpose.


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## Adams Journey (Nov 28, 2012)

Inshallah said:


> Yes she does! As stand alone meds, no. In combination with an AD, so far, after 4 weeks, a still very unconvinced maybe :teeth
> 
> I was already on 40 mg Escitalopram when I tried dextroamphetamine, but it does seem like the better of the two to use in a combination AD. MPH is a bit too harsh for that purpose.


Do you think that your depression is caused by social anxiety? Also I have tried extended release versions of both drugs and I always got more euphoric/not depressed from immediate release versions. Just as a possibility to bring up to your pdoc.


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## jisung (Jun 9, 2013)

Both meds are great for ADHD, however they don't have the same mechanism. 

I was prescribed with both Methylphenidate IR and Dextroamphetamine IR and here are my thoughts which a lot of people find it similar or identical.

Methylphenidate:
-Lasted only 45min~90min. 
-The "kick" is much stronger
-So does the rebound... One of the WORST rebound feelings. Highly discouraged if you have SA. The rebound is worse than adderall
-The "kick" is rather euphoric than be able to focus
- Highly dependent, because you'll always looking for the same feeling that you experienced when you were on ritalin.
- People can tell you're on something


Dexedrine:
- Adderall is made up of 1/4 of dextroamphetamine, which is required to stimulate CNS activities. 
-Dexedrine is 100% dextroamphetamine, so you'll feel no almost no side effect compare to ritalin or adderall.
- The drug is mellow yet potent. Is not like Ritalin which makes you feels like on speed or cocaine, but it's enough to let you focus on the "right" things in life.
- Makes you very sociable, other people couldn't tell the difference except from your close friends. 
- 10mg of dex lasted 2~3 hrs, no rebound, no crash. Versus Ritalin 10mg only last 30min and the rebound is terrifying.


Get dextroamphetamine if you can, it beats Adderall and Ritalin.


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## mayfair (Nov 28, 2013)

*My experience with dex and concerta*

I took concerta for about 8 months, started with 24mg ER, went up to max 30mg. It felt great at first, miracle worker honestly. School became interesting, and my conversations with people seemed much more productive. I wouldnt cut people off, I could really listen to what they were saying (rather than 40-50%) and I could focus on homework for hours on end. In the end, I was a zombie, lacked personality, was irritable, lacked emotion, love and care for others. It was great for school, but the problem for me came with feeling like a better person on it. I doubted my abilities for everyday tasks without it, and blamed any mental impairment on lack of concerta. I then took a break, cold turkey, for a year until I went back to school and realized I needed something to help me focus. I branched out and decided to try dexedrine IR. I started on 5mg twice daily, then to 10mg in morning and 10mg sporadically in the afternoon. Im at the point now, where I use it like one would coffee. I am taking around 25-30mg daily, and realize this is not safe. Its not what my doctor recommended and further complicates my body (liver, respiratory, cardio) and moreso makes me feel dependent on dexedrine to accomplish tasks throughout the day. It is addictive, and I take it when I 'feel like it'. As of tomorrow, I am soley taking it twice a day, as recommended, and remembering WHY I took it in the first place: for concentrating on school work. I hope I can find my optimal amount, and I plan to take vacations from it this winter break. I do not want to go down the addiction road, or lose a part of who I am. In terms of comparison between concerta and dexedrine, I prefer dex, because I am much more social, energetic, motivated, and happier at the end of the day. Although concerta helped me focus very well, I was depressed, unsocial, and had the whole 'zombie' effect. Maybe too high of dosage. I really just want to feel confidant in who I am without the drugs, and stay true to myself and others. Good luck for those of you out there with ADHD, if the drug you are taking is leaving you depressed, irritated, etc; try another drug. Research, and read other peoples stories. Some you can relate to and open your eyes to different points of view. Dex has helped my focus, but I have abused it previously, as it is very easy to just pop a pill when you 'feel' like it. My plan is to drink some coffee when the second dosage wears off, and give myself time to relax in the evenings. My ultimate goal is to take a 2 week vacation in the winter break. Id love to hear feedback, or questions.


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