# Looks are a confidence booster for dating



## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

I know this is kind of obvious for a lot of you, but confidence in dating equates a lot with one's looks.

I bring this up because imagine being someone who hardly gets rejected because they look really good. How would that person feel? How entitled would they feel about approaching and getting dates? Confident?

Now, imagine being someone who is rejected constantly. How would that person feel? Not worthy? Ugly? Self-conscious? Hesitant? Lacking confidence?

Put this together and you see why looks make someone confident. As a guy, it is hard for me to know how good looking guys do approaching and getting dates. Some say they are the "20%", for example, of the top picks and don't have a hard time at all dating or getting rejected. The other 80% are confident possibly for other reasons; some even think they are that top 20%, but rejection seems more problematic for them.

So for those who get rejected a lot, I would imagine keeping a level of confidence is very difficult. We can't always blame "SA" or "shyness" or other factors, but we may begin to understand that we feel this way because we are rejected probably based on looks, and our self-image of ourselves is tied into that.

I sometimes think about guys and girls who obviously look attractive. I wonder how hard it is for them to approach or what it's like to get rejected once in a great while? The rejection probably doesn't affect them as bad compared to someone who is constantly rejected. Their confidence knowing that it was more a fluke than anything keeps their self-esteem in high order.

Idk, just some simple crap I thought about. I just want to know what you people think about it. Confidence isn't solely based on how one looks alone, and I understand this, but wouldn't you agree it plays a HUGE part in dating based upon high/low levels of dating experiences?

Example:
I may even have more experience than a better looking guy but that better looking guy hardly gets rejected. Do you think he most likely will have more confidence with the dating process? Most likely. So experience doesn't always equate to confidence because rejection plays a huge part, which _seems_ to be based largely on looks.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

Yes rejection hurts but it stings a little less after you keep putting yourself out there. You learn it really doesn't matter and still go for the girl anyway.

As far as your last example, wouldn't you have confidence if you have more experience than the good-looking guy? See what I'm saying? You've been there, done that.

The more I get rejected the less it matters to me because I realize it didn't kill me. And sometimes I am even successful.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

http://simplepickup.com/about-us


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

rymo said:


> http://simplepickup.com/about-us


Lol. The music makes me feel like I'm slowly cutting myself lol. But it's definitely inspiring! Pretty cool videos man 

I guess I'm a "vag"


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

bwidger85 said:


> Lol. The music makes me feel like I'm slowly cutting myself lol. But it's definitely inspiring! Pretty cool videos man
> 
> I guess I'm a "vag"


LOL


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

^I know deep down that's what you think about me LOL 

Reminds me of kindergarten cop. the boy says: "boys have penises. Girls have vaginas"


LOL


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

bwidger85 said:


> ^I know deep down that's what you think about me LOL
> 
> Reminds me of kindergarten cop. the boy says: "boys have penises. Girls have vaginas"
> 
> LOL


LOL


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

LOL


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

I freaking love Arnold.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

If someone keeps getting rejected then they are supposed to have low confidence; if they happen to be confident after constant rejection then they are delusinal. Confidence is supposed to be rational not delusional; it needs to be based off success. True confidence trumps delusional confidence. And it is obvious that good looks give you confidence.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

shynesshellasucks said:


> If someone keeps getting rejected then they are supposed to have low confidence; if they happen to be confident after constant rejection then they are delusinal. Confidence is supposed to be rational not delusional; it needs to be based off success. True confidence trumps delusional confidence. And it is obvious that good looks give you confidence.


So much truth in this! :yes :yes :clap

It does no justice if I'm lying to myself.


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## sanspants08 (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm starting to think there's a connection between attractiveness and flakiness. If the person is really, really good-looking, and projects confidence, they have so many options that they really don't need to make a decision. They may like you, but they may be considering four or five other people, so they may break plans at the last minute, forget about them, etc., and really never suffer any consequences, because the line of people trying to get with them will be basically endless.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

shynesshellasucks said:


> If someone keeps getting rejected then they are supposed to have low confidence; if they happen to be confident after constant rejection then they are delusinal. Confidence is supposed to be rational not delusional; it needs to be based off success. True confidence trumps delusional confidence. And it is obvious that good looks give you confidence.


This is how I feel. Sometimes I think I may be delusional. The only problem is, I do feel online is different than real life. Unfortunately, until I've proven I get rejected a bunch in real life (live approaches) then will I really know.

I honestly feel if I approach in real life I'll do better, but only time will tell. I really need to do more live approaches.


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## rdrr (Dec 31, 2008)

shynesshellasucks said:


> If someone keeps getting rejected then they are supposed to have low confidence; if they happen to be confident after constant rejection then they are delusinal. Confidence is supposed to be rational not delusional; it needs to be based off success. True confidence trumps delusional confidence. And it is obvious that good looks give you confidence.


Success in dating, its not only just looks, but positive experiences and feedback from your peers. If you are good at something, you will have confidence in it and your abilities. If you are not as good, you wont have positive experiences. They say practice makes perfect, but what good is that when you are repeatedly having negative experiences? What good is it to "keep trying"?

Obviously its something wrong with you. Maybe its looks, timing, approach, bad luck, confidence, personality, or just lack of true effort. I guess its scary to admit maybe you arent as attractive to someone as you may think. Its also quite difficult to determine true self worth, especially when one isnt too keen on their own abilities.

I see threads here "what do girls look for...". Girls, look for what is attractive to them. Whether that is you, well is their decision. You can do and be confident, extroverted, interesting, smart, funny, and this may still not be enough. What could be the problem, if you claim have most of the qualities one is looking for in a mate, and you are still constantly rejected? Is it them, or you? I guess thats for you to figure out.


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## Lottoman (Nov 9, 2010)

shynesshellasucks said:


> If someone keeps getting rejected then they are supposed to have low confidence; if they happen to be confident after constant rejection then they are delusinal. Confidence is supposed to be rational not delusional; it needs to be based off success. True confidence trumps delusional confidence. And it is obvious that good looks give you confidence.


I agree. For an example, someone could consider themselves a really great basketball player and have confidence in their abilities but if they play 500 one-on-one games against different people and only win 30 of them their probably not as good of a player as they believe to be. 


Confidence and results go hand in hand. All the confidence in the world won't mean a thing if you never recieve the results you want.


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## lightsout (Jan 8, 2012)

sanspants08 said:


> I'm starting to think there's a connection between attractiveness and flakiness. If the person is really, really good-looking, and projects confidence, they have so many options that they really don't need to make a decision. They may like you, but they may be considering four or five other people, so they may break plans at the last minute, forget about them, etc., and really never suffer any consequences, because the line of people trying to get with them will be basically endless.


I would even have this cover anyone who's "socially successful" (don't need to be good looking, just someone who "things are going right" for, bunch of friends, etc). If you're on the other side where said-person is your only friend (or one of few), you're much more likely to be super courteous when dealing with them (like cancelling an appropriate amount before, letting them know if you're going to be late somewhere, etc), even shifting things around to make plans easier for them (often to not receive the same courtesies). Like you said, in their mind they may think you're great friends or w/e, but they don't realize that their behavior might not be reflective of that.


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## Intron09 (Jan 25, 2012)

looks, like money, give you choice...so yeah good looking people can get anyone they want. 

I also think about it as less pressure or stress about failing. 

An attractive person with inner confidence though, is probably more satisfied than one who feels that they only have looks going for them.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

rymo said:


> http://simplepickup.com/about-us


Oh man, lol...these guys' videos are hilarious man! lol

I am so gonna use some of these approaches haha

HAHA! "what's your favorite color of leaves?"

omg dude LOL!!!

i think i'm going to do stupid *** approaches like this to get over my ridiculous fear! great inspiration!


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

bwidger85:1059662786 said:


> rymo said:
> 
> 
> > http://simplepickup.com/about-us
> ...


Yeh, they're great. I watch them every time I go out to pump myself up. Every guy should watch them. Credit to lucid vision for posting their link in another thread.


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## OldSchoolSkater (Jun 3, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> I know this is kind of obvious for a lot of you, but confidence in dating equates a lot with one's looks.
> 
> I bring this up because imagine being someone who hardly gets rejected because they look really good. How would that person feel? How entitled would they feel about approaching and getting dates? Confident?
> 
> ...


No offense, and I am not trying to attack you at all, but I wonder what you hope to get out some of these posts you make. It seems to me that you need to accept the way things are and not disect them so much. Also you should understand that there is no consistency when it comes to self esteem or dating - these things are different for every person and couple.

Yes, looks help SOME people feel confident - but I think as you can tell by looking through our Members Photo's thread that it isn't always true. We have plenty of great looking men and women on here who have very low self confidence or who have body image disorders (I think more commonly called BDD? Sorry, I'm lame when it comes to that type of thing).

Again, I'm not attacking you but I am curious as to whether or not the responses you get/hope to get will actually help you in some way or if it is just your way of avoiding confronting your own insecurities (whatever they may be). This is just like your post where you started a fake profile of a girl on a dating site - I'm not sure how this will help you, it seems that all you want to do is either complain about the way things are or have someone confirm that you are correc to believe these things.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

Yeah I agree with oldschoolskater. I think posts like these just tend to make people feel inadequate and bitter. Especially the one about the fake dating profile. That seemed cruel to me. Put yourself in the shoes of the guys who messaged you. Imagine how you'd feel if you were interested in a girl and found out later that it was just a guy who made the profile for ****s and giggles. Also I wonder where you got the photo of the girl from...hopefully a friend who gave her consent, otherwise there's a girl out there who now has a fake dating profile with her photo attached to it...

IRT this topic, there are other factors than just appearance. I'd say how a person perceives themselves is more important. If someone sees themselves as unattractive, then all the positive reinforcement in the world won't help them until they're able to believe it. So they won't necessarily have an easier time. The mentality that physical appearance is the only factor here really oversimplifies relationships. What about personality? A person with a crappy or off-putting personality will get rejected just as easily. Approaching isn't just "You're hot, I'm hot. Let's date/have sex/whatever". Unless they're just trying to get laid, you have to win the person over with conversation too.


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## DeeperUnderstanding (May 19, 2007)

Even Brad Pitt has been rejected, man.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

shynesshellasucks said:


> If someone keeps getting rejected then they are supposed to have low confidence; if they happen to be confident after constant rejection then they are delusinal. Confidence is supposed to be rational not delusional; it needs to be based off success. True confidence trumps delusional confidence. And it is obvious that good looks give you confidence.


Yeah. Confidence is your trust that you will succeed, usually in interpersonal matters.
Looks are a part of that of course, but so are many other things. It really just depends on what things you've gotten good/bad response on in the past.

And it's really hard to 'sell' something (the idea of going out, not your body :b) if you don't believe the other person is actually interested in what you have to offer.
It's true that some are insecure about their looks despite people telling them they are beautiful, but that does not mean that positive reinforcement from your peers is unrelated to developing confidence.
In fact, I would venture to guess that people who feel insecure about their looks despite often being told they are beautiful actually have another issue which is causing their low confidence. And as long as that underlying issue remains, the compliments to their looks won't help much.
This could be regarding our own ability to handle tasks and take care of ourselves/others or it could be an unfulfilled acceptance/acknowledgement from other people.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Confidence regardless of external factors = delusion. Feedback from other people shapes our confidence and self-esteem. Not being affected by a wide range of negative feedback is delusional as well. IMO.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

Why do I post these things people ask? Because it's interesting to me and I like reading feedback and perspectives.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

joinmartin said:


> I agree that it can sometimes feel as if this is the case. And here's my take on the issue:
> 
> Confidence does not have to be based on skills or results in the external world. We all had the confidence to learn to walk and take the knock backs. We didn't have huge amounts of real world success to go on but we still had the confidence to have a go and get up when we fell on our behinds.
> 
> ...


I could hardly agree more on every point.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> I agree that's your opinion and I can see how people come to those conclusions. And the issue is what's actually out there in the external world. Is it always correct or right or informed when it gives feedback? Does the external world know what it's talking about? Do other people know what they are talking about all of the time? The external world is chaotic and waiting for feedback from it before we decide to be confident is a recipe for neediness. It hands our confidence to people and things that cannot tell us what we want to hear.


It is not neediness. If you give anyone in the world enough amounts of rejection they will not have confidence, and if not then they are delusional.



> If you wait for others to give you permission to be confident then other people in a social context have the power to make you feel anxious, self conscious and depressed. This looking for confidence outside of ourselves is one of the foundation stones of SA. If you wait for others to tell you that you're good enough then you stop taking responsibility for your life and acting on your wants and desires. Indeed, you don't make much of an impression on others doing that because you're waiting for them to tell you who you are.


If someone had a whole bunch of rejections then their SA is rational. The way to fix this is to fix whatever causes the rejection and get some success, then slowly with each small success SA is overcome. Delusion doesn't fix the causes of rejection.



> The delusion is to hand the confidence to the external world and expect that the external world can give you confidence back.


Getting confidence externally is the normal way of getting confidence otherwise it's delusional. If you ignore constant rejection and humiliation then you are ignoring a huge problem.

You say seeking validation is a bad thing. But that is what everyone in the world seeks, only the delusional and anti-socials don't.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

shynesshellasucks said:


> It is not neediness. If you give anyone in the world enough amounts of rejection they will not have confidence, and if not then they are delusional.
> 
> If someone had a whole bunch of rejections then their SA is rational. The way to fix this is to fix whatever causes the rejection and get some success, then slowly with each small success SA is overcome. Delusion doesn't fix the causes of rejection.
> 
> ...


And I couldn't disagree with you more. External and internal factors influence confidence, but you have to start within yourself. You have to be confident in yourself yet at the same time acknowledge shortcomings and weak points in your life.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

srschirm said:


> And I couldn't disagree with you more. External and internal factors influence confidence, but you have to start within yourself. You have to be confident in yourself yet at the same time acknowledge shortcomings and weak points in your life.


And that means nothing if you keep getting socially rejected or rejected by tons of girls, unless you are delusional.


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## srschirm (Jun 25, 2006)

shynesshellasucks said:


> And that means nothing if you keep getting socially rejected or rejected by tons of girls, unless you are delusional.


No it does mean something. Most people want to be around confident individuals---and by the same token, the more confident you are, the more likely you are to pursue relationships with people. You can't continue negative self-talk and expect to gain confidence.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Deleted


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

srschirm said:


> No it does mean something. Most people want to be around confident individuals---and by the same token, the more confident you are, the more likely you are to pursue relationships with people. You can't continue negative self-talk and expect to gain confidence.


Sure, for some people it was confidence all they needed because they had an irrational lack of confidence. An example includes a good looking person who was already attractive in a girl's eyes but all he needed to do was be more confident. Some people simply had in them all along they just needed more confidence, but this is not always the case (especially when you are talking about people who have been rejected a bunch of times either socially or romantically)


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## Rossy (Jan 15, 2011)

I guess it helps.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

JM those inventors and writers you used as examples achieved success through hard work and dedication. It's very different than what we are talking about here.



> SA is not overcome with success in the external world. People on this website have had lots of success throughout their life whether they consciously recognise their achievements or not. We all achieve a lot in our lives. And yet, SA still lingers on. It doesn't even happen in the external world. SA is within the person. Yes, some external factors can cause it. But only because they got processed in certain ways within the person. In the case where someone had SA because they were bullied in the past, the past event may have influenced the SA. But the constant repeating of the past event that continues to cause SA is going on inside the person's head. Not in the external world.


There are those who suffer from irrational SA and not necessarily from SA that is caused by constant rejection (which is a more rational form of SA).



> The irrational, delusional response is to constantly assume that being rejected by someone means you're not good enough or that you somehow need to be fixed so that they will like you or stop rejecting you. That is neediness. People vary and no matter what you do, you cannot control them. Some people won't like you if you have the most amazing body, social skills, conversational skills in the galaxy. Abandoning confidence in yourself just because some person or other rejected you is understandable in some cases as we all know rejection hurts. But it is still a massive overreaction to life. It's still a damaging reaction to a rejection that could be about the other person as much as it could be about you.


When the rejection is constant then the lack of confidence is rational and something needs to change so that you get rejected less and actually have success. If someone already gets laid a ton of times and is rejected a few times then it's no big deal to his confidence.



> People seek validation. But the emotionally healthy ones seek it from within themselves.


I already said that this is not normal.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Deleted.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

Let's try a small thought experiment.
Imagine a small child playing. They don't yet really know what the dangers of the world are and so will do things with seeming confidence. Not thinking some action will bring bad results naturally makes you more able to perform that action than if you thought it would be bad.
Now imagine the 2 different sets of parents A and B.
A gives attention and love to the child, nurturing it and encouraging it in its play and investigation of the world around it.
B does not. Scolding the child when it does something wrong or is being noisy and generally not giving it the attention or love it needs.

Parents B would normally be accused of child neglect.
But if you really believe that confidence and mental health has nothing to do with the external world and it truly comes from within, then surely you could just as easily tell the child it shouldn't hand over it's mental well-being to its parents and it should take power over its own life.

Confidence comes from security.
If there are too many factors (internal or external) which prevent you from feeling secure in whatever it is you're doing, you will not be confident.
Expecting/demanding someone to grow confidence without making sure they actually are secure is completely irresponsible and will only cause people more harm.


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## alte (Sep 4, 2010)

Being attractive offers advantages in life. There is research which supports this. For example,

"Facial Attractiveness and Lifetime Earnings: Evidence from a Cohort Study; Scholz, J, Sicinski, K. February 2011.

_We use unique data from the Wisconsin Longitudinal Study to document an economically and statistically significant positive correlation between the facial attractiveness of men in their senior year in high school and their labor market earnings when they are in their mid-30s and early-50s. There does not appear to be any link between facial attractiveness and direct measures 
of cognitive skills, such as IQ or high school class rank, or between facial attractiveness and measures of health, including mortality and self-reported health status. While attractiveness is positively related to participation in high school sports and other activities, these experiences do not affect the size of the attractiveness premium in earnings. *Attractiveness is also strongly, significantly correlated with proxy measures of confidence and two of the "big five" personality traits: extroversion and the absence of neuroticism. * But even after including a lengthy set of characteristics, including IQ, high school experiences, proxy measures for confidence and 
personality, and family background and additional respondent characteristics in an empirical model of earnings, the attractiveness premium is present in the respondents' early-50s. Our findings are consistent with attractiveness being an enduringly valuable labor market characteristic_."

Search this topic on google scholar, there seem to be hundreds of studies on it. Good luck.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

JM, anybody can have success through hard work and dedication. If a friendless, out of shape, socially awkward, virgin, that lives in his mother's basement decided to all of a sudden become a playboy, he would probably have doubters as well. But if this out of shape loser actually puts the effort in getting in shape, get a well paying job, get a nice house and car, become more extroverted, have fashionable clothes and a nice haircut, have a big social circle of friends, and improve his social skills, he will get laid and prove his doubter wrong. You are not the type to suggest stuff like this though. You're philosophy is totally different. You would probably tell him that the fact that he is a loser doesn't matter. You would tell him to be confident from internal factors which don't exist. Perhaps he approached a ton of girls and got rejected but you would still tell him to be confident and not change his ways. That is were your point of view is different.

And yeah when you get rejected a bunch of times, not a few times, you are obviously doing something wrong or something is wrong with you. There is no other explanation. Sometimes rejection may solely be because of lack of confidence but that is rarely the case.



joinmartin said:


> Plenty of people in society seek the majority of their validation from within. Sure, we fluctuate as human beings and there will be moments when external validation becomes extremely important to us. But for the most part, normal, healthy human beings (if such a term exists) get the majority of validation from within themselves.


You don't think that any normal person in this world would lose confidence if they suddenly got rejected most of the time?



> So, people who have been rejected a bunch of times socially or romantically don't have "it" in them? It's not about lacking confidence for them?


It is rarely because of lack of confidence IMO.



> So what happens when people's opinions of you are mixed? What happens when your results in life turn out to be mixed? Is it rational or irrational to lack confidence when life becomes a jumble of good and bad things and good and bad experiences?


It's all good unless negative experiences greatly outnumber the positive ones. Let's say, for example you approach 2000 women and only got laid let's say like 5 times. That is a rediculously bad ratio, and there is no reason to be confident.


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## BobtheBest (Aug 27, 2011)

shynesshellasucks said:


> It's all good unless negative experiences greatly outnumber the positive ones. Let's say, for example you approach 2000 women and only got laid let's say like 5 times. That is a rediculously bad ratio, and there is no reason to be confident.


That's a good point, odds like those make my success seem like a fluke, which still weakens my confidence.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree with shynesshellasucks. In order to be confident you have to have something to be confident about. You can't just pull confidence completely out of your *ss. I do think having a bit of positive delusion about yourself is good for your mental health though.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Deleted.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Joinmartin, what fueled the virgin's effort to change was his willpower, motivation, and sure confidence did play a small role, but this type of confidence is different than the one you usually talk about. He was confident that if he did what was required of him to do, he will be successful. He realized that he needed to change and fix all of his flaws that repelled women. But this is very different than what you suggest because you would have never encouraged change in the first place. You would have told him that he was originally fine the way he was. You would have told him that he just needed to approach more, no matter how often he got rejected and humiliated. He basically needed to change his ways and himself in order to be successful, but you don't encourage this. You just encourage confidence but no change, which leads to no results and only delusion.



joinmartin said:


> Who exactly is telling him he's a loser? How would telling him he's a loser help him? How would making him feel bad about himself help him to succeed?


Society and women in general view him as a loser. And yes it is painful to realize when someone is a loser, but it is beneficial to realize it; that way, the loser can change himself and not be a loser anymore. It is depressing, but it is all up to him to change.



> And how do you know internal factors don't exist? Of course they exist. SA happens mostly internally. Are you going to suggest that SA doesn't exist because it's internal?


Yes internal factors do exist when psychological problems are involved. But I think it's a little different when it comes to SA. I believe there are those that suffer from SA almost 100% irrationally, in some cases irrational and rational fear overlap, and in other cases it's much more rational than irrational. I think when it comes to dating, it is more of a rational fear. Maybe I should have said that internal factors don't exist unless irrational fears or delusion is taken into account.



> People are more than capable of summoning confidence from within themselves even under the worst of circumstances. And would changing his ways automatically mean girls would not reject him? Do all girls act the same way to guys? Is there some sort of magic approach that makes every girl say yes?


There is no possible way to win over all of the girls. You just have to win over a good chunk of them, without getting rejected a whole bunch of times on the process.



> That will depend on where the person is getting their validation from. If it's all about other people liking them and saying yes to them (needy mentality) then being rejected most of the time will have a massive impact on their confidence.
> 
> If, however, they've become comfortable with some people not liking them and don't need other people's constant approval to function then constant rejections will just have a slight, easily repaired dent in their confidence.


What if the person has a long history of not being compatible with anyone? You don't think their confidence will be affected?



> What tells you it is rarely because of lack of confidence?


Because I rarely see anyone have a good reason to be confident. If for example, I saw a whole bunch of good looking people lacking confidence, then I would tell you the opposite. Also, I believe that a lot of the time people confuse having charisma and charm, with having confidence. Having charisma and charm lead to having confidence, not the other way around.



> So, because the majority of those 2000 women didn't sleep with you, you have to feel bad? With the greatest of respect, that's needy approval seeking mentality. What about the five women that did sleep with you? Why can't you use your experiences with them to help you become confident? You got laid five times? Why is that not a good thing? Why can't you feel confident about that?
> 
> I know we're talking in terms of examples here but I just don't see why a person couldn't rejoice in the fact that he got laid five times. Why does he need the approval of all the women he approached?


Doing 2000 approaches is very time consuming, and I think most people would get laughed at if they approached that much and got rejected. Also, more than likely none of the girls wanted to stick around, if they did stick around they would not be doing thousands of approaches. Either that or the guy slept with girls that he settled for.

Also being successful in 5 out of 2000 approaches is nothing to be confident about because that is flat out bad.


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## Hexakosioihexekontahex (Feb 11, 2012)

Success is wrought out of failure. 
When one learns about the elusive art of picking up, they learn what works and what doesn't. Naturally they first get acquainted with what doesn't, giving them a better idea of what could, then verifying it so it is identified as something that does. 

Uncertainty->experiment->trial-and-error->clarification->->profit. 

Personality is a more elegant concept than one first gives credit. Good looks can be intimidating, which is a good thing and a bad thing. 

Being of average/moderate physical traits with a killer personality isnt a hard game to play.


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## percyblueraincoat (Jun 2, 2009)

Charm and charisma emerge from confidence.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Joinmartin, everybody knows they can get what they want out of life, if they put in the effort. People don't put in the effort, not because of lack of confidence. They don't put in the effort because most people are lazy, they procrastinate a lot, they are so accustomed to their lifestyle that they don't want to change for other people, or they have been reading a lot of self help/PUA BS that says external factors don't matter, and that they could get a hot girlfriend who is way out of their league, by just playing the numbers game. Having read a lot of your posts, I assume you would say that no one is out of anyone's league, which is one of the things that makes me think that you are overly optimistic.



> But not all women sing from the same hymn sheet. Indeed, you'd be hard pressed to get two women acting the same all the time never mind millions. Fix one "flaw" that one woman didn't like and you could well cancel out something that was a turn on for another woman. Plus, this also assumes that the rejections were automatically his fault and nothing to do with the women.


If you can't see that a socially awkward, out of shape, friendless, virgin that lives in his mom's basement is seriously disadvantaged when it comes to dating, then IDK what to tell you.



> The best way to encourage change is to do very little and let the person themselves discover just how wonderful and powerful and capable they are whether some random person likes them or not.


Most if not all people are capable of change, that I agree with not the rest.



> More than half of society hasn't even met him so can't judge. Society in general? Women in general? Again, woman are variable human beings.


The fact that he is a loser is already set in stone, unless he makes a dramatic change, again, if you can't see this than IDK what to tell you.



> As someone who recovered from a quite serious bout of self hatred and not feeling good enough in life let me just mention how "recognising your a loser" doesn't do anything positive. It just re-enforces negativity. Lose the ability to feel good about yourself and you lose access to your healing resources and that creates a serious problem when trying to make changes.


The key is to make *changes*. The virgin will have to try and try to change his life, while not being confident, or faking it till he makes it (either one is fine in this case), but if he just goes with it and works to *change himself* and *his life*, he will see improvements, and small *success* by small *success*, and slowly becomes more confident. (when he is successful, only then will he become truly confident). The keys are *change and success*, not confidence.



> I once met a homeless guy who spent his days drinking from various wine bottles. He stunk and wasn't that pleasant to a lot of people. I somehow got talking to him and turns out he had had a pretty eventful and interesting life. A person is not a loser simply because of their current circumstances. If they are down on their luck but of decent/good character then they are not a loser.


He has good social skills but that is about it. He will probably not get laid by a non-homeless woman though.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

> What would be the purpose of winning over a good chunk of them? What's worth more, one amazing girl or twenty girls you've got nothing in common with and who don't treat you right?


This depends if you rather have a really hot physically attractive girl, or just go by personality 100%. I want a mixture of both, but I rather have a hot physically attractive girl. Also, I doubt there are many guys that totally take looks out of the picture. And, if a guy is really unattractive, good luck to them finding a physically attractive girl with a great personality, their odds are as likely as winning the lottery.



> It will be affected if they define their confidence and who they are based on whether they have someone who likes and or loves them. Having people like and or love us is a boost to our confidence. It is not, however, the sole reason for our confidence. At least, it should not be. When it becomes the sole reason for our confidence and happiness, we start approval seeking. This puts people off us and inhibits our natural abilities to communicate and connect with each other.


I rather be a needy approval seeker and get some approval, as you call it, rather than not get approval at all.



> I agree that it can seem likes that and the issue is simple what propels and or fuels the charisma and charm? What makes people get up there and use the charm they have? What helps people get out, meet people and develop their charisma and charm skills? In my opinion the answer to that is: confidence.
> 
> Charm and charisma emerge from confidence.


If they had charm and charisma all along, then they had irrational lack of confidence. And I agree that sometimes confidence plays a role in developing charisma, not sure about charm though. And this is because they were confident in learning through trial and error; they knew that at first they were not going to have success, but if they kept pushing themselves they will learn social skills. If they never learn and improve their social skills/charsima though, they will not have success, no matter how delusionally confident they are.



> It might be time consuming. But we do have to put the effort in if we want something.
> 
> And who cares if people laugh at someone for doing two thousand approaches. He's approaching 2000 people and showing confidence. The people laughing at him at making fun of a random person being confident. Thus displaying just how much of a bunch of idiots they are. And who cares about the laughter of morons?


Why not fix the stuff that causes a bunch of rejections, waste less time, and not get rejected a bunch of times; rejections that make everyone around you form a negative opinion of yourself. Why not strive to be regarded as a successful person, or even a normal person, and not be looked as someone who miserably fails time and time again? I don't think anyone wants to be viewed negatively by a bunch of people.

Also, is it not needy and desperate, approaching 2000 women, getting rejected a bunch of times, just to get laid?



> A guy who is uses to seeing himself and his successes negatively will keep doing so even if he gets five yes answers from girls. He will re-frame the whole experience and say: "ooh, I made thousands of approaches and only got five girls. I must still be a loser". Indeed, he'll re-frame everything that happens in the external world until it matches with his negative belief about who he thinks he is. That's why you go inside and defeat the negative belief that is making him do that. You then help the person create a more positive way of seeing themselves and help them generate confidence from within themselves. This makes them less outcome dependent and helps them let go and enjoy life more.


His confidence measures up with his odds, if you improve his odds he will be more confident and rightfully so.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

Hexakosioihexekontahex said:


> Success is wrought out of failure.
> When one learns about the elusive art of picking up, they learn what works and what doesn't. Naturally they first get acquainted with what doesn't, giving them a better idea of what could, then verifying it so it is identified as something that does.
> 
> Uncertainty->experiment->trial-and-error->clarification->->profit.
> ...


I agree, as long as the girl is not out of your league in terms of looks or other factors. If you want a girl out of your league then social status may come into play.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> It will be affected if they define their confidence and who they are based on whether they have someone who likes and or loves them. Having people like and or love us is a boost to our confidence. It is not, however, the sole reason for our confidence. At least, it should not be. When it becomes the sole reason for our confidence and happiness, we start approval seeking. This puts people off us and inhibits our natural abilities to communicate and connect with each other.


The point isn't that you need to get approval from every single person that you meet in order to remain confident.
The point is that you have gotten approval from _enough_ people to build up confidence and this gives you a layer of resistance.
If too many people start to disprove of you without things to balance it out, your resistance can start to be worn out and you can become very vulnerable to rejections and criticism.

I'll assume what we're talking about is confidence in interpersonal interaction, as I can naturally be a confident cook (although I'm not) or many other things regardless of having social anxiety.

This discomfort actually does serve a purpose, but it has just gotten out of hand and so needs helping.
People generally have a strong desire to be part of a community and to belong somewhere. This does require fitting in with, and being accepted by, the other people in that group.
Your body's way of signalling you need to change something is most often pain (like when you need to remove your hand from the stove).
Being hurt by rejection is the proper response your mind should have. It is to tell you that something went wrong and you need to change it.
It's part of empathy and is actually a good mechanism, which gives you a vested interest in treating other people well.

The problem is when you get 'locked' in a hurtful pattern that reinforces itself and you can't find your way out.
Where the pain you feel is so great that it makes it impossible for you to act. Or where the hurt and anxiety you feel become the reasons for more rejections, thus only strengthening themselves.

But if you tell a person who has low confidence that they should find confidence within and that it's not a product of how the world treats them.
Not only are you neglecting the effect other people have had on your own life, you are doing the person you're talking to a great disservice and frankly belittling them and not taking their problems seriously.
If somebody can find confidence regardless of how other people treat them, they are both apathetic and asocial.
I'm not trying to accuse you or anybody else of being either, but I am saying that you're forgetting things when trying to figure out how you got your confidence.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

Finding confidence within involves putting yourself out there in the world no matter how you slice it. You guys can argue all you want about leagues and changing your life and all this, but the reality is the only real way to become confident IS to fake it till you make it. Of course by getting into shape, making money, etc...all of that helps. You may even get lucky and get a girl without trying depending on your status. These things will all help. But how does the fat slob loser become a pimp and get hot chicks and attain ultimate confidence WITHOUT having great looks and money? By putting himself out there constantly, facing rejection, appreciating the little victories and coming out after many scrappy battles a victor in both confidence and personality.


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

rymo said:


> Finding confidence within involves putting yourself out there in the world no matter how you slice it. You guys can argue all you want about leagues and changing your life and all this, but the reality is the only real way to become confident IS to fake it till you make it. Of course by getting into shape, making money, etc...all of that helps. You may even get lucky and get a girl without trying depending on your status. These things will all help. But how does the fat slob loser become a pimp and get hot chicks and attain ultimate confidence WITHOUT having great looks and money? By putting himself out there constantly, facing rejection, appreciating the little victories and coming out after many scrappy battles a victor in both confidence and personality.


Don't fake it till you make you. You need to believe in yourself. After I met this girl, she saw that I was painfully shy on our first date. Then I "attacked" her in the parking lot (she gave me the signal to kiss her) and "attacked" her back at my place (she didn't give me any signals. I just felt it was worth trying. hehe). I shocked her. She didn't expect that from me because I was so shy. The girl asked me how many girls I've been with. 10+? :lol. She was impressed by my performance. "Energizer bunny". "Best sex I ever had" "longest lasting". She liked that I over-powered her more than her ex (who was too gentle-ish). Basically what happened was, I went in there doing what I wanted to do. I wanted to be like those studly male pornstars in the porn movies so I went in with aggression. I am no Lexington Steele or anything. But I tried my best and she enjoyed the sex. Don't limit yourself to the shy label. If you want to spank her from behind, do it. Be what you want to be.

I find that it's when I lose confidence that I have problems with sex. And also dating. But there are girls who will overlook your shyness if she thinks you are cute and if you can still manage to warm up a bit and connect.


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## rymo (Sep 6, 2009)

phoenixwright said:


> Don't fake it till you make you. You need to believe in yourself. After I met this girl, she saw that I was painfully shy on our first date. Then I "attacked" her in the parking lot (she gave me the signal to kiss her) and "attacked" her back at my place (she didn't give me any signals. I just felt it was worth trying. hehe). I shocked her. She didn't expect that from me because I was so shy. The girl asked me how many girls I've been with. 10+? :lol. She was impressed by my performance. "Energizer bunny". "Best sex I ever had" "longest lasting". She liked that I over-powered her more than her ex (who was too gentle-ish). Basically what happened was, I went in there doing what I wanted to do. I wanted to be like those studly male pornstars in the porn movies so I went in with aggression. I am no Lexington Steele or anything. But I tried my best and she enjoyed the sex. Don't limit yourself to the shy label. If you want to spank her from behind, do it. Be what you want to be.
> 
> I find that it's when I lose confidence that I have problems with sex. And also dating. But there are girls who will overlook your shyness if she thinks you are cute and if you can still manage to warm up a bit and connect.


I don't see in what way our opinions are different here...


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

rymo said:


> Finding confidence within involves putting yourself out there in the world no matter how you slice it. You guys can argue all you want about leagues and changing your life and all this, but the reality is the only real way to become confident IS to fake it till you make it. Of course by getting into shape, making money, etc...all of that helps. You may even get lucky and get a girl without trying depending on your status. These things will all help. But how does the fat slob loser become a pimp and get hot chicks and attain ultimate confidence WITHOUT having great looks and money? By putting himself out there constantly, facing rejection, appreciating the little victories and coming out after many scrappy battles a victor in both confidence and personality.


He can approach all he wants, but because he is fat and he lives with his mom he is going to get rejected a whole bunch of times and will be very lucky to even find someone. He needs to move out, and get in shape, but Joinmartin doesn't believe that improves his chances. If he takes care of his shortcomings first then he can approach and have better success. If he wants hotter girls then he needs to have even more stuff going for him. I'll address Martin later I am on my phone right now.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

If I was given the chance to be a millionaire without a chance of being happy or a guy who was passionate and who loved life... I would choose the guy who loved life.

I'll fully admit my insecurities. Sometimes I can't do it in real life, which I don't find helpful at all. But I'm at least happy I have a hard time giving up on anything. I can fail over and over and over again and "give up" time and time again but i'm miserable when I do. I can't accept not trying or not doing something that is possible.

This whole looks thing for me has probably been one of the hardest things for me to wrap my head around. I flip flop on the idea all the time. I've seen both sides of the argument though.


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## bsd3355 (Nov 30, 2005)

That word "vag" stuck with me pretty well lol... i guess it's kinda true in a way


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

joinmartin said:


> Why, if they have confidence, are they procrastinating? Why, if they have confidence, are they not putting the effort in? Why be lazy if you have the confidence to succeed?


They don't put in the effort because they are lazy; they procascinate a lot, or don't want it badly enough period, for those who suffer with really irrational SA it is probably different. But for me personally, I am confident that if I work out and eat healthier I would be in better shape. I am confident that if I study more I will get better grades. I am confident that if I go out more often with friends, or just go out more often, or just talk to people with people more often at work, I will improve my social skills and have a better social life. etc. I know that if I do these things I will become better at those aspects. In this sense I don't lack confidence, the reason I don't do this is because I am lazy, I procastinate a lot and I don't want it badly enough.

And in regards to the fat virgin and the guy with no arms and legs, the only cases in which I could see guys with no arms and legs get laid is if they have a whole bunch of social status, but even that is a real longshot. If you take that out of the equation, the fat guy that has no social skills and lives with his mom, and the guy with no legs and arms are limited to girls in their league or lower. They may approach thousands of women but more than likely they will be very lucky to find someone. The guy with arms and no legs has it much harder because the fat guy can at least change his situation, and most women will definitely rather sleep with a fat guy rather than a guy with no arms and legs.
My way of thinking is that if you are undesireble to most women then work on yourself and change certain aspects about yourself that will appeal most women. You are right that it is pretty much impossible to attract all the women in the world, but the goal should be to attract most women you want to date.


> Must we always be so incredibly negative about people? Must we always accuse them of not being good enough because of their current circumstances? After all, who are we to judge?


IMO if we want to become better at something we must be brutally honest because then we will never improve. If for example, a successful writer that gets several critiques that point out that something about his work is off and it sucks, he wouldn't ignore it, and he would try to fix it which would most likely improve his work.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

*reply to joinmartin*



> Again, who are we to judge? It's not a fact and it is not set in stone. It's an opinion. Is someone a loser because of their current circumstances? You're shy and have openly admitted on here that you lack social skills. Does that make you a loser? Is it set in stone that you're a loser? Are the people on this forum losers because of where they happen to find themselves in life?


In the eyes of most in this society, yes we are losers.It is an opinion and that I agree with, but it is the opinion most people have. You will probably say something like "the map is not the terretory" but the map is pretty accurate in this case and it sould be obvious, not in the sense that we are losers but in the sense that this is the opinion most people have of us. This is just obvious to me.


> If success equalled confidence then you'd never see successful people with self esteem, confidence or anxiety issues. And you see them in spades. Success gets filtered by people internally. If someone believes they are a loser they will dismiss any success as being some sort of fluke or not about them.


If they are already successful and still have confidence and self-esteem issues then they have an irrational internal problem, that is another problem altogether. If you give someone who thinks is a loser a good success/rejection ratio and he dismisses it then he is being irrational as well. 


> You get them confident first and the changes emerge out of the new way of feeling about themselves. The confidence helps them go for the changes and goals in their life.


This is true as long as they work to change what causes constant rejection, and failure. If they never change what causes constant rejection and failure then they are just being delusional.


> Whether you want a hot girl, a good personality girl or a mixture of both, one amazing girl is still better than 20 girls you've got nothing in common with and you don't get on with/don't treat you right. So you need to find one good one not twenty okay ones.


Agreed, but what does this have to do with being rejected a whole bunch of times? Are you saying that the undesireable guys, that get rejected a whole bunch of times, have a better chance of finding the better girl than the desireable guys that are much more successful and get rejected less? How does that make any sense?


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

> But that's just it: he who seeks approval does not find it. People don't like people who constantly seek their approval. So approval seeking, ironically, does not get you approval. Being yourself and approving of yourself helps you meet and interact with people more and thus gain friends and develop social skills. If you're in a "must win their approval" mindset then you can't relax in their company and they feel like you want or need something from them. This hampers communication and connection with people. Approve of yourself and other people follow your lead.


It is ironic that your whole philosophy involves not seeking approval from other peopler when at the same time that is the whole purpose of it because at the end it is supposed to land you women (approval from women) and an improved social life (which also involves approval from other people). Being yourself only works when you are compatible with other people, no matter what frame of mind you are on, if you are not compatible with other people then you are not. Your strong frame of mind is not going to fool people or women, if you are not compatible with them. I agree though that almost anyone can find a match (in friendships, relationships can be longshots depending on the person) if they search and talk with enough people. But if you are undesireable to a huge percentage of women and most people think you are akward or weird, then a strong frame of mind (delusional confidence) is going to be very little help.



> If they were confident that they were not going to have success but, if they pushed themselves they would have success and learn skills eventually then confidence fuelled their success. They didn't get that confidence from external successes or from the approval of others. They generated from within themselves.


That is because they were confident in there abilities to change themselves to win over more people, and adapt to have more success and less rejections. If that is what you mean than you are coming around to agreeing with me, but I doubt that's what you mean.



> I agree they don't want to be viewed negatively by a bunch of people. And the issue is that this is real life. Sometimes, you can't stop people from viewing you negatively no matter what you do.


Unless they change and stop being seen as losers.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

*reply to joinmartin*



> Acting as if every rejection is caused by a fault in one person is therefore crackers


Not if the rejections are constant.


> Attempting to fix a bunch of stuff that causes a bunch of rejections when you're likely to meet a new bunch of people with a new bunch of tastes that don't correspond to whatever you might have "fixed" is also crackers.


I would have to find out which guys around me are successful and be like them in order to attract girls. Sure not all girls like the same things, but there are certain places were most girls share common interests.


> I said the person who approached that many times was showing confidence. The people who might laugh at him for doing it do not matter.


He showed delusional confidence because he approached a whole bunch of times in which he got rejected.


> Other way around: improve his confidence and you improve his odds.


I already said that if you are not compatible/attractive to most people or women, having a strong frame of mind (delusional confidence) is going to help very little.


> His confidence does not measure up with his odds because his odds are just some person's guesses. They are not set in stone. Life simply is not that ordered. Unless we've got the power to predict the future or how a new person will react to him.


When the next EPL season starts again, who would have the better odds of finishing higher? Queens Park Rangers or Manchester City? And what team would you be more confident in? The answer should be obvious, unless you are delusional or a Queens Park Rangers fanboy.

Joinmartin, I haven't really changed my opinion much, if at all, during this discussion. You probably haven't either. I'll agree to disagree.


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## Milco (Dec 12, 2009)

joinmartin said:


> No. Being hurt by rejection is one response. Not necessarily the proper response. Time and time again it's pretty much proven that the most successful daters simply don't care about or react badly to rejection.


Please note that I'm not talking about this in the context of dating.
I am simply talking about it in a general context.
Not caring what other people think about you is by many people seen as power which they find attractive. I am fully aware of that.
This is however, in my view, a perverse fascination with power and encourages deeply problematic behaviour.



> Assuming it's all about you and what you did is not empathy. It's pure self indulgence. Nothing could be so far removed from empathy as assuming rejection is all about one person.


If I may be allowed to make a simply, non-romantic description of empathy, it is simply caring about other people's opinions (through a general desire to fit in) and an attempt to figure out how to make other people happy, so they would include you. Not entirely accurate, but enough for the purpose of this discussion.
If you then conclude that what is required to fit in is more than you're willing to do, that's completely legitimate, and it's only natural that you try to interpret other people's role in the interaction, but that's not empathy and it really is besides the point.



> Actually, teaching people to find confidence from within is taking people's problems very seriously. Acting as if someone cannot be confident if the world happens to treat them badly would be the act of belittling people. Doing that would show a severe lack of faith in people and their abilities. That's belittling. That's doing people a disservice. That's not taking people or their problems seriously. Acting as if a person's identity and life are entirely defined by other people is belittling.
> 
> In contrast, teaching people to generate confidence from within empowers people, treats them with respect and shows them the powerful resources they have at their disposal which they've used many times before to solve problems in their life.


I have to say you haven't been helping me.
From my perspective, all you have done is just calling people needy and unattractive without offering any indication of how they should get better other than the vague "find it within".. ironically, you're still telling people how they should be and how they should change, even though it seems your point is that one shouldn't change because other people tell one to.

Without wanting to involve politics too much in this, what you're saying reminds me of what conservatives say about poor people.
Saying that giving poor people financial aid is showing them how little society actually believes in their ability to make their own money and that only by cancelling this aid do we show them respect and stop treating them like victims.
I simply cannot accept that as "help" and have to say I find it offensive when it is being labelled as such.



> With respect, how do you know how I got my confidence? I fought for my confidence. I didn't sit there waiting for the world to tell me I was good enough.


"With respect", your post really doesn't show a lot of respect.
I don't need you calling me needy, unattractive or implying I'm just sitting around waiting for approval.
You seem to believe in the "Sticks and stones" rhyme, but it is completely wrong.
Some might benefit from "tough love" and for those we can use it as a deliberate tool.
But many will only suffer more from this, and if we socially accept "tough love" to be the correct and fair approach, we are self-righteously justifying causing severe harm to people.
That is why it simply cannot be accepted!


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## phoenixwright (Jun 22, 2011)

komorikun said:


> I agree with shynesshellasucks. In order to be confident you have to have something to be confident about. You can't just pull confidence completely out of your *ss. I do think having a bit of positive delusion about yourself is good for your mental health though.


You have to start from somewhere though. You can't just base everything on external validation. Like I've said, I'm not hung like Lexington Steele or anything and my much more sexually experienced friend with benefits keeps begging me to let her come over to have sex with me again. You can't let inexperience and past failures put you in self-doubt mode. Because if you are in self-doubt mode, the dates are gonna be dull, the sex is gonna be dull (or you might not even get it up or stay hard sometimes), etc.


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## OldSchoolSkater (Jun 3, 2011)

bwidger85 said:


> Why do I post these things people ask? Because it's interesting to me and I like reading feedback and perspectives.


Yes, but I thought this was a support website for SAD and not for your research. I just find that a lot of your topics tend to make people with SAD feel worse and just reaffirms their fears, etc. How are we supposed to get better when someone keeps throwing stuff like this in our face? Especially with a depressing tone.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

OldSchoolSkater said:


> Yes, but I thought this was a support website for SAD and not for your research. I just find that a lot of your topics tend to make people with SAD feel worse and just reaffirms their fears, etc. How are we supposed to get better when someone keeps throwing stuff like this in our face? Especially with a depressing tone.


I don't want to answer for him, but I don't see what is so bad about this thread. It is obvious that looks equals confidence when it comes to dating, unless the good looking person has irrational lack of confidence or some other factor is unattractive. Saying that looks don't matter and don't influence confidence is just a way to lie to yourself, sometimes people want truth not BS. This is just a way to challenge those people who still say looks don't matter.


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## au Lait (Sep 8, 2010)

shynesshellasucks said:


> It is ironic that your whole philosophy involves not seeking approval from other peopler when at the same time that is the whole purpose of it because at the end it is supposed to land you women (approval from women) and an improved social life (which also involves approval from other people).


That's not what Joinmartin is saying at all though.

"Landing women" isn't the point of confidence. If you view getting women as some form of validation, then it seems to me that you view us less as people and more as trophies (also interesting how later in your post you use the phrase "people or women"....are women not people? why differentiate?).

Confidence that relies on the validation from others is false confidence. You think getting a girlfriend will prove you are a worthwhile person? Well, what happens if that relationship ends? Does that somehow mean that suddenly you are no longer supposed to feel confident because now you are losing that validation? When confidence is genuine, it exists regardless of whether or not you feel other people are telling you that you are worthy.

Yes, constant negative reinforcement does contribute to low self esteem. But it's possible to rise above it. And no one gets constant positive reinforcement from others either. Everyone (even the most popular people) have people who dislike them.

Relying on others for validation is a form of neediness, can put incredible strain on relationships (friendships and romantic relationships), and is not healthy. Real confidence is about accepting yourself, even if you think others don't.

It's the ability to bounce back from even the most ego-crushing situations and say to yourself, "It's ok, I'm still an awesome person." It doesn't have to be delusional. People have faults. We can either accept ourselves as we are, faults and all, or work on changing the things about ourselves that we don't like. You don't have to be perfect to feel good about yourself, just as you don't have to be perfect to get into a relationship.


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## shynesshellasucks (May 10, 2008)

au Lait said:


> That's not what Joinmartin is saying at all though.
> 
> "Landing women" isn't the point of confidence. If you view getting women as some form of validation, then it seems to me that you view us less as people and more as trophies


I meant confidence in the ability to attract. If women don't validate them then how are they supposed to be confident in the ability to attract. Imagine if a guy asked out women several times and failed every time how is he supposed to be confident without being delusional? I also personally don't see a problem with a guy just wanting to get laid provided he doesn't trick the girls.



> (also interesting how later in your post you use the phrase "people or women"....are women not people? why differentiate?).


I meant people (in general) for friendships, and women for relationships.



> Confidence that relies on the validation from others is false confidence. You think getting a girlfriend will prove you are a worthwhile person? Well, what happens if that relationship ends? Does that somehow mean that suddenly you are no longer supposed to feel confident because now you are losing that validation?


It depends if I already had success before that. If I had a gf by accident then I will not be confident in looking for another one.



> When confidence is genuine, it exists regardless of whether or not you feel other people are telling you that you are worthy.


No that's delusion. If a guy had women throwing themselves at him he will be confident and rightfully so, if he is not confident then he has irrational lack of confidence. Now throw in a guy that has little to no success, tell me how he is supposed to feel?



> Yes, constant negative reinforcement does contribute to low self esteem. But it's possible to rise above it. And no one gets constant positive reinforcement from others either. Everyone (even the most popular people) have people who dislike them.


Positive reinforcement needs to balance out the negatives. If all a guy knows is getting bullied or made fun and has very little to no friends and girlfriends, then his lack of confidence is rational.



> Relying on others for validation is a form of neediness, can put incredible strain on relationships (friendships and romantic relationships), and is not healthy. Real confidence is about accepting yourself, even if you think others don't.


If anyone in this world got rejected constantly they will have lack of confidence and it would be rational. And let's say we have a guy that lives with his mom, is socially awkward and loves to play video games and he wanted a gf. He gets rejected constantly, remains a virgin for a long time, and you tell him to accept himself he is fine the way he is and that he should keep searching. This is how you get misogynists because he will blame women and not his life circumstances because he thinks there is nothing wrong with him and it's the women's fault.



> It's the ability to bounce back from even the most ego-crushing situations and say to yourself, "It's ok, I'm still an awesome person." It doesn't have to be delusional. People have faults. We can either accept ourselves as we are, faults and all, or work on changing the things about ourselves that we don't like. You don't have to be perfect to feel good about yourself.


No matter what he does he has to have some social, and romantic success. If not then he will lack confidence unless he becomes delusional.


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## OldSchoolSkater (Jun 3, 2011)

I think the problem is that people are confusing confidence in romantic relationships and confidence in general with one another. You can totally be confident in yourself and be shut down by someone of the opposite sex.

Also, true confidence in yourself wont be eliminated by being shut down. If your confidence all of a sudden is gone because a random woman you asked out said no than in my opinion you didn't have any confidence in yourself to begin with. 

I think it is best for most of us with SAD and confidence problems to learn how to be alright by ourselves, to be confident and comfortable with who we are alone, before we can have a successful relationship. Otherwise as soon as that relationship goes south we are questioning our own abilities and worth. At least, that is what happened in my experience.


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