# Homocysteine levels SA relation



## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

a few links

1) Decreased choline and creatine concentrations in centrum semiovale in patients with generalized anxiety disorder:

linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0925492706000035

2) Choline, creatine, and N-acetylaspartate were inversely correlated to total social phobia and fear symptoms, as measured by the Brief Social Phobia Scale, in the thalamic and noncortical gray areas.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8276746

3) Low Dopamine D2 Receptor Binding Potential in Social Phobia

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/157/3/457

Here comes their relation homocysteine

1) When homocysteine levels are too high, this interferes with the functioning of receptors located all over the brain -- called NMDA ( N-methyl-D-aspartate) receptors -- that are critical to learning, memory, brain development, and general neural processing.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080604155820.htm

2) homocysteine selectively decreased the ability of D2 receptor stimulation

homocysteine acts as an allosteric D2 receptor antagonist

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18274309

3) in humans who are fed a low- choline diet is an exaggerated increase in plasma total homocysteine

www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/82/4/719

4) Creatine supplementation decreases homocysteine

www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/kid/2003/00000064/00000004/art00021

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So we lack creatine and choline and N-acetylaspartate according to the first two articles. Creatine and choline decreases homocysteine. Homocysteine decreases n-methyl-d-aspartate and has negative effects on d2 receptors. According to the third link we have problems with d2 receptors.

There are other supplements like folic acid, b-12, NAC, b-6, TMG, MSM which reduces homocysteine.

The thing with the articles I sent is, that it seems to me there is a chain reaction between choline creatine and homocysteine in our case specifically.

I mean I used NAC, TMG, b-6 did not make much difference. Never tried choline+creatine together. But when I used them seperately they help a little bit. But I don't think I took these supplements very long time to effect my homocysteine levels very significantly. Now that I don't have creatine I have to wait for stipend to get one. Then I will share my experience.

I did not have a test of homocysteine but as a prediabetic it is very likely that I have high homocyteine levels. What else increases it, I think diet is a factor but genetic is another big factor in the metabolism of this toxic substance.

About N-acetylaspartate and N-methylaspartate I dont know what their difference is but I think they are very much linked.


----------



## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

another study

according to our results, women suffering from mixed anxiety-depressive disorder have not only significantly different concentrations of homocysteine in the follicular and luteal phase of the menstrual cycle but also higher plasma homocysteine compared with healthy women.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118867596/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


----------



## Beggiatoa (Dec 25, 2004)

I hope our problems are as easy as lowering homocysteine. This can be determined, ofcourse, by a simple blood test. Your Doctor will tell you that values above 12 (can't remember units) are bad but if it's anywhere above 8 or even 10, I would worry.

If you have high homocysteine levels, then you're a candidate for undermethylation. Supplementing with methylcobalamine and trimethyglycine, provides these methyl groups to help reconvert homocystine to less damaging compounds. These are some of the symptoms:

"Undermethylation: This condition is innate & is characterized by low levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, high whole blood histamine and elevated absolute basophils. This population has a high incidence of seasonal allergies, OCD tendencies, perfectionism, high libido, sparse body hair, and several other characteristics. They usually respond well to methionine, SAMe, calcium, magnesium, omega-3 essential oils (DHA & EPA), B-6, inositol, and vitamins A, C, and E. They should avoid supplements containing folic acid. In severe cases involving psychosis, the dominant symptom is usually delusional thinking rather than hallucinations. They tend to speak very little & may sit motionless for extended periods. They may appear outwardly calm, but suffer from extreme internal anxiety. "

I'm pretty sure these symptoms appeal to some people here. They do to me.

High homocysteine levels caught my attention. Some of the symptoms according to Wiki- are 
* A family history of homocystinuria
* Nearsightedness
* Flush across the cheeks
* Tall, thin build
* Long limbs
* High-arched feet (pes cavus)
* Knock-knees (genu valgum)
* Pectus excavatum
* Pectus carinatum
* Mental retardation
* Psychiatric disease
* Eye anomalies:
* 90% have ectopia lentis
* Myopia
* Glaucoma
* Optic atrophy
* Seizure

I have a few of these. These symptoms are also similar to those found in Mitral Valve prolapse and other connection tissue disorders, which I have. So, obviously, these are all related and NOT independent of each other.

I bought all the supplements but I stopped taking it because I want a diagnosis just to be sure. There's no harm in keeping homocysteine levels in check so the supplements wont hurt. I just want to be sure THIS is the problem.

Does anyone here have medical insurance that can test for this? 

If your Doctor finds you have high homocysteine levels, he'll go ahead and treat THAT. But he probably won't dig deeper to treat the cause. So you'll have to remain on medication indefinitely. Homocysteinuria is an effect, not a cause.

What's confusing about all these syndromes, signs and symptoms is that they each have their own names. This has the effect of confusing the heck out of most people and preventing them from seeing the interrelation between conditions. Remember, they are all related. What's important is the order in which they occur.

For example, you can start reading about adrenal insufficiency, magnesium deficiency, B1 deficiency, hypoglycemia, undermethylation, candida, mercury toxicity, high homocysteine levels and find that many of the symptoms are almost the same. What I think is happening here goes something like this:

-High mercury levels damage cells, the kidneys and neurons (leads to SA). This could lead to magnesium wasting because the kidneys can't reabsorb it. It also causes an imbalance of minerals, leading to low selenium which predisposes you to candida and it's symptoms. Now, you're body is riddled with fungus and it works extra hard to get rid of it. This puts a heavy load on your adrenal glands and eventually they start to fail....

Or

-You get a nasty case of H pylori. This causes indigestion and acid reflux. You start using antacids ( a horrible idea) to combat this problem but this only lowers your stomach acids further. Also, H. pylori damages the stomach cells so they now produce even less HCL. Foods you eat go undigested and you start developing allergies to common foods (some researchers say ADD and dyslexia is caused by food allergies. Removing the food will remove the problem). Also, a less acidic stomach means bacteria makes its way up there and ferments some of the foods you eat. This gives you bloating and gas...and also predisposes you to candida...Since the stomach wall is damaged, you don't produce HCL OR intrinsic factor which is needed to absorb B12 from foods. Less B12 is converted to methylcobalamine and you can develop under-methylation and increased homocysteine levels....

There are a thousand scenarios like this any of which can lead to SA.

The point here is to put all of your signs and symptoms together in an attempt to develop a TIME-LINE. Much like detectives do to solve crimes. When you know the order in which things happen, it's easier to figure them out.

Some people have told me that I'm too fanatic about this and that I try to be TOO healthy. But Social anxiety is not a singular event, rather, it is the result of multiple cause/effect interactions that's messing up or brains. We have an idea of mechanism by which social anxiety occurs (less D2 activity, less ACH, less NMDA activity), we just don't know what causes this.

So, something like getting your homocysteine levels checked, is a logical place to start.

However, it would be a terrible waste of time if your SA was inherited and simply due to your genetics. I haven't read anything that linked familiar inheritance to SA, but I'm sure it's out there. This seems to be a rather common thing, so I'm more inclined to blame it on an organic problem found in nature than simply dismiss it as "genetics"


----------



## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

one more link

Homocysteine decreases blood flow to the brain due to vascular resistance in carotid artery.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18725259

Yeah a test is needed for sure.

But this time there is too much coincidence. For many things it says their deficiency causes anxiety or that health condition causes fatigue,anxiety, joint stifness etc.

But as I wrote this there is too much coincidence. I don't know what else effect d2 receptors or brain blood flow.

The thing is elevated homocysteine levels is a consequence of insulin resistance so my test result alone would not clarify much.


----------



## proximo20 (Nov 25, 2006)

Beggiatoa said:


> Some people have told me that I'm too fanatic about this and that I try to be TOO healthy. But Social anxiety is not a singular event, rather, it is the result of multiple cause/effect interactions that's messing up or brains. We have an idea of mechanism by which social anxiety occurs (less D2 activity, less ACH, less NMDA activity), we just don't know what causes this.


Well some people live with insulin injections all their lives without knowing what caused diabetes or is it possible to reverse it.

So I would not mind taking a few pills all my life without eliminating the root or without knowing what the real cause is. In my case it is probably insulin resistance maybe in your case candida or something else.

And in these articles d2 activity, nmda, ach seem to be related to choline creatine homocysteine relationship.

But these are all opinions I appreciate any comment. We don't even know if the results of these researches are correct.

Well how do we want to become? Muscular, but lean but with a sharp mind right? Choline and creatine work for these purposes.

I tried lecithin and glutamine but something was missing. I will try these two and share my experience here of course.


----------



## Beggiatoa (Dec 25, 2004)

proximo20 said:


> Well some people live with insulin injections all their lives without knowing what caused diabetes or is it possible to reverse it.
> 
> So I would not mind taking a few pills all my life without eliminating the root or without knowing what the real cause is. In my case it is probably insulin resistance maybe in your case candida or something else.


You're right on the money there.

For me personally, I wouldn't be happy stopping there. I would have to AT LEAST try to get to the root of problems, to feel like I really made an effort. Otherwise, I could just use a beta-blocker like propranolol to calm anxiety and pick up paxil again. Those two worked well for me in the past...to a limited extent. But that's just me.

What I've found to have the highest impact on the symptoms caused by depression, anxiety, SAD, brain fog and lack of concentration & motivation for me have been Magnesium, Taurine, choline, Bacopa, ashwagandha, NAD, tyrosine, benfotiamine, betaine HCL and fish oil. Everything else I take is personal choice. I can probably throw away the other hundred supplements I use daily and be ok.


----------



## robertz (Feb 4, 2009)

Definately there is a connection. I have been taking TMG for some days and I feel better than in years. Though it may be due to the fact I also suffer from Gilbert's syndrome, and serum bilirrubin is always very high. 

The TMG effect on me is a mood bost, and after some days a feeling of calmness I thought it was not possible. Unlike other supps like 5-HTP, pharmaGABA and the like, this is a real feeling of calmness.


----------



## VanDamMan (Nov 2, 2009)

Maybe having SA decreases these. Not that low levels of these cause SA.


----------



## teaser (Feb 6, 2010)

http://www.springerlink.com/content/3eag5f2n4hxclxdf/

Here's another supplement that might help with homocysteine;



> Aims/hypothesis. Hyperhomocysteinaemia increases cardiovascular risk in Type II (non-insulin-dependent) diabetes mellitus by augmenting oxidative stress and reducing nitric oxide availability. In vitro, nitric oxide decreases homocysteine by its conversion to the vasodilative and antioxidant compound _S_-nitrosohomocysteine. We investigated whether or not changes in nitric oxide availability decrease homocysteine concentrations in vivo.
> Methods. The study group consisted of 20 normotensive, normolipidaemic, non-atherosclerotic Type II diabetic patients in good metabolic control (16 men, 51.2-1.4 years) and 15 healthy subjects (12 men, 48.1-1.5 years). Circulating concentrations of homocysteine, nitrite+nitrate and sulphydryl groups, a marker of oxidative stress, were assessed at baseline and then 5', 10', 30' and 60' after the intravenous infusion of either _L_-arginine (3 g in 10 ml saline), the nitric oxide precursor, or vehicle according to a double-blind cross-over randomized protocol.
> Results. At baseline diabetic patients showed lower plasma sulphydryl group concentrations (491.8-16.9 vs 551.3-21.0 µmol/l, p<0.04) and nitrite+nitrate (21.4-0.8 vs 29.5-0.9 µmol/l, p<0.0001) and higher total homocysteine concentrations (11.1-0.5 vs 8.3-0.6 µmol/l, p<0.002) than the control subjects. After _L_-arginine infusion, blood pressure levels and total homocysteine concentrations (ph0.05) decreased (peak at 5' and 30', respectively) whereas nitric oxide and sulphydryl group concentrations (ph0.003) increased (peak at 10' and 30', respectively) in the patients and control subjects.
> Conclusion/interpretation. Acute _L_-arginine infusion in both Type II diabetic patients and healthy subjects decreases plasma total homocysteine concentrations, counteract oxidative stress and increases the availability of nitric oxide.


It strikes me that a direct effect of homocysteine might not be all of the problem; like most other substances in the body, homocysteine isn't just an endproduct, it's part of a larger cycle of reactions. How you lower homocysteine might be more important than lowering it; simply blocking its production might cause some undesirable deficiency somewhere down the line.

If you look at this study here, they explain how homocysteine and arginine are involved in creatine synthesis;

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3890/is_200404/ai_n9360539/



> Each day, the average individual loses, depending on muscle mass, 10 to 15 millimoles of creatine due to spontaneous degradation to creatinine. Biosynthesis of creatine, to replace that loss, involves two enzyme-catalyzed reactions. In the first reaction, the amidino group of arginine is transferred to glycine, forming guanidinoacetate and ornithine. In the second reaction, a methyl group is transferred from SAM to guanidinoacetate to form creatine and S-adenosylhomocysteine (SAH). SAH is subsequently hydrolyzed to adenosine and Hcy, thus generating one molecule of Hcy for each molecule of creatine synthesized. It has been estimated that creatine biosynthesis could potentially account for up to 75% of daily Hcy production.5 High levels of exogenously provided creatine can repress the synthesis of the enzyme that catalyzes the first step in creatine biosynthesis in chick embryo livers and in rat kidneys.9,10 Furthermore, rats fed a creatine-enriched diet had decreased tHcy compared to controls.11 Oral creatine supplements are commonly used by athletes to enhance performance.12,13 Studies involving creatine supplements in healthy individuals have failed to produce reports of adverse effects.12-17 Therefore, this study was undertaken to determine if oral creatine supplements could lower tHcy in healthy volunteers. While this study was in progress, it was reported that creatine supplementation produced a small but statistically insignificant decrease in tHcy in healthy women, with or without a concurrent program of resistance training.18


This study itself showed a much stronger effect of creatine on homocysteine in humans than the other one mentioned at the end of the quote.

So, the synthesis of creatine by this pathway necessitates the synthesis of homocysteine. And this process consumes some amount of l-arginine, which is a necessary precursor to one pathway to nitric oxide formation, which is important to vasodilation, giving us a second route by which blood flow to the brain might be compromised.


----------

