# Memantine + Amphetamine



## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

I take (d)-amphetamine 15mg IR ~3 days per week. It works very well for SA and sometimes can make me very extroverted, but it's not a practical treatment as tolerance sets in if I use it more frequently.

After hearing many glowing reports about how memantine inhibits the development of amphetamine tolerance, I started taking it at 5mg for 4 days, and have been on 10mg/day since. On the 12th day of being on 10mg memantine, I took my usual 15mg dose of amph, and felt a powerful surge of euphoria, sociability, confidence, and was completely free of SA. It was just like taking amphetamine for the first time! Over the next 4 days, I took 15mg each morning but skipped one day. Each dose was just as powerful and efficacious, AND the duration was extended to ~7-8 hours! So this brings me to today, where I decided to reduce my amph dose to 10mg, and it's working even better than 15mg did before starting memantine.

Could memantine render amphetamine a practical longterm treatment for SA/social anhedonia (among many other disorders)? Looks like it may, but I'll have to give it the test of time. Anyone else have any experience with this regimen?


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Awesome to read about your experience with memantine for amphetamine tolerance. I personally have been researching memantine for this purpose for a while, and have contacted some people that have used this regime on a long term basis. The longest succes story i know about was off someone who has been on this combo for 18 months succesfully, however those are a few things ive learned from looking at other ppl's experiences:

- Memantine should be taken in 2 doses a day, because even tough it has a long half life, its windows of effects could be shorter.
- 30 or 40mg a day is optimal, altough for some ppl lower doses may work great.
- You need to take a 1 or 2 day break from amphetamine every week.


----------



## inVis420 (Jul 15, 2009)

I took 5mg memantine and 30mg adderal IR a few hours ago and the addy is working great. I also mixed in a benzo.....no social anxiety and plenty of euphoria. Am I treating my SA properly or are all these meds a bad idea? I guess some having some general anxiety about the med situation. The Benzo/Adderall/Memantine combo has been completely destroying my SA at work....this is promising.


----------



## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

inVis420 said:


> I took 5mg memantine and 30mg adderal IR a few hours ago and the addy is working great. I also mixed in a benzo.....no social anxiety and plenty of euphoria. Am I treating my SA properly or are all these meds a bad idea? I guess some having some general anxiety about the med situation. The Benzo/Adderall/Memantine combo has been completely destroying my SA at work....this is promising.


That's awesome to hear. 

It's a very safe cocktail. The memantine mitigates amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity by reducing excessive glutamatergic neurotransmission.


----------



## inVis420 (Jul 15, 2009)

IllusionalFate said:


> That's awesome to hear.
> 
> It's a very safe cocktail. The memantine mitigates amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity by reducing excessive glutamatergic neurotransmission.


Thanks 

I dont know why benzo's work so well for me. There's just something about that total relaxation feeling that's got me hooked. I hope I just use the benzos responsibly....i bought some phenibut to use on days off, hopefully that helps. Amphetamines are essential too because i'm diagnosed with inattentive ADD.


----------



## inVis420 (Jul 15, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Awesome to read about your experience with memantine for amphetamine tolerance. I personally have been researching memantine for this purpose for a while, and have contacted some people that have used this regime on a long term basis. The longest succes story i know about was off someone who has been on this combo for 18 months succesfully, however those are a few things ive learned from looking at other ppl's experiences:
> 
> - Memantine should be taken in 2 doses a day, because even tough it has a long half life, its windows of effects could be shorter.
> - 30 or 40mg a day is optimal, altough for some ppl lower doses may work great.
> - You need to take a 1 or 2 day break from amphetamine every week.


I take 10mg of memantine and feel weird....I can't imagine taking that much. Am I still getting tolerance benefit of any kind?


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

inVis420 said:


> I take 10mg of memantine and feel weird....I can't imagine taking that much. Am I still getting tolerance benefit of any kind?


Since you take enough breaks from your meds it could work, cant say anything for certain as its differend for most people.
Keep on eye on any tolerance forming, if there is, up the dose.

Also, the wierd feeling goes away after a few days. And i highly recommend to try to up your dose when you have time to let your body adapt.


----------



## inVis420 (Jul 15, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> Since you take enough breaks from your meds it could work, cant say anything for certain as its differend for most people.
> Keep on eye on any tolerance forming, if there is, up the dose.
> 
> Also, the wierd feeling goes away after a few days. And i highly recommend to try to up your dose when you have time to let your body adapt.


Thanks man i'll try that....I trust your opinion you seem to do alot of research.


----------



## inVis420 (Jul 15, 2009)

Is Adderall + Klonopin considered a speedball? Is it safe? 

Lol...btw I would take Generalized Anxiety Disorder over SA anyday of the week. Which is how i'm feeling right now. 

Gotta go to work....i'll keep you guys updated. I love the medication forum


----------



## belfort (May 3, 2009)

^^adderall/klonopin feels NOTHING like a speedball...a speedball is heroin/cocaine IVed....completely different ballgame...

very interested in memantine...d


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

inVis420 said:


> Is Adderall + Klonopin considered a speedball? Is it safe?
> 
> Lol...btw I would take Generalized Anxiety Disorder over SA anyday of the week. Which is how i'm feeling right now.
> 
> Gotta go to work....i'll keep you guys updated. I love the medication forum


No, this combination is safe The downside of such a combo would be that you would have the withdraw from both if you want to stop taking them, but you take breaks every week so thats not a problem.


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

inVis420 said:


> I take 10mg of memantine and feel weird....I can't imagine taking that much. Am I still getting tolerance benefit of any kind?


yeah, definetly dude....i took only 5mg Memantine, and I got alot of tolerance benefits. But, still, honestly, the faster you go up to 20mg or above, the more pain u can save yourself. I was lazy and waited 1 month after each dose raise, before going up again, now im going up to 15 or 20mg,.....it seems, at 5-10mg, tolerance is prevented for about 2-4 weeks. Definetly a higher dose is more desirable....the wierd side effects go away within 3 days, as Crazymed said....its not too bad at all. yay for Amph+memantine...... makes me functional again.


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

belfort said:


> ^^adderall/klonopin feels NOTHING like a speedball...a speedball is heroin/cocaine IVed....completely different ballgame...
> 
> very interested in memantine...d


speaking of such....(haha) i wonder what Amphetamine+Memantine(20mg or more)+Codeine+glutethimide would be like.......i dunno if Amphetamine is metabolized by CYP2D6 strongly or not. Glutethimide would be a pain to get though......But anyways, Klonopin+Amph+Memantine seemed alot like a speedball to me, but then again, ive never tried a speedball, let alone any strong opiates. So why am i even talking? lolol Im just interested in obliterating my SA. Klonopin+Amph+Memantine did it for quite a while, until tolerance set it.....so, ya.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Those increases in memantine don't really sound like a sustainable solution Vini. Taking regular breaks from amphetamine is the only way to do it properly long-term, and even memantine will at best allow you to take those breaks a bit less often.

20mg seems like a low dose of Parnate, btw. Do you plan to stay at that? Parnate is a great drug to take with amphetamine in adequate doses because it vastly increases the potency and also protects against dopamine-induced neurotoxicity (not through glutamate excitotoxicity or anything, but by preventing the oxidation of dopamine to neurotoxic metabolites).


----------



## belfort (May 3, 2009)

well, an adderall/valium combo feels to me like a strong initial burst of mild euphoria coupled with social motivation while at the same time feeling relaxed...a heroin/amphetamine combo provides a huge burst of euphoria...just absolute relaxation rushes thru your body and mind...you are completely content with the world, you love everything and everyone..i dont get like that from adderal, not even close...


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> yeah, definetly dude....i took only 5mg Memantine, and I got alot of tolerance benefits. But, still, honestly, the faster you go up to 20mg or above, the more pain u can save yourself. I was lazy and waited 1 month after each dose raise, before going up again, now im going up to 15 or 20mg,.....it seems, at 5-10mg, tolerance is prevented for about 2-4 weeks. Definetly a higher dose is more desirable....the wierd side effects go away within 3 days, as Crazymed said....its not too bad at all. yay for Amph+memantine...... makes me functional again.


Id go to a minimum of 30mg of memantine a day since you take amphetamine on a more regular basis. Even 20mg is probably too low if you take amphetamine more then 4 times a week.

As far as breaks, you know i'm pushing you when its time for one.



> even memantine will at best allow you to take those breaks a bit less often.


It does make a BIG difference when done correctly, however a big difference doesnt mean you can take amphetamine all the time without tolerance, its just that amphetamine itself can build a COMPLETE tolerance after just 2 days in some people, and many report being completely tolerant to the mood boosting effects after 2 weeks. There are also ppl that dont have much issues with tolerance tough, but its a pretty big problem.

You are correct that you still need to take regular breaks, i allways recommend people to take a 1 or 2 day break off amphetamine every week and/or a 1 week break after every 3 weeks.


----------



## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

well this is an interesting thread
for one thing i never knew amphetamine was legal lol, i asked my doc about mixing adderral with memantine or taking a amphetamine and he laughed and shook his head and said "no way" because amphetamine will cause more anxiety when u come down off it also i am pretty sure anything ending with _amine_ is not legal, unless i am wrong off course i thought methamphetamine was a potent drug that you snort known as crank, spank, P, Ice, speed and so forth


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm going to see my doc on friday to ask for dexedrine. I think I'll ask for memantine too. If I only take the dex 3 or 4 days of the week should I take the memantine everyday or just the days I take the dex?


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

DrewDrewson said:


> I'm going to see my doc on friday to ask for dexedrine. I think I'll ask for memantine too. If I only take the dex 3 or 4 days of the week should I take the memantine everyday or just the days I take the dex?


I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself :lol


----------



## mike8803 (Feb 21, 2010)

Once your body gets used to it, it'll poop out.


----------



## mike8803 (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't understand why people take amph. and go on a roller coaster ride up and down up and down, when thats not how you fix or atleast try and help social anxiety, all your doing is making yourself into a crackhead for a couple hours

Why not try an MAOI, or TRI and go from there


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

I can usually persuade my doctor pretty well meyaj, but I can't say I know what I'm getting myself into here. He might just laugh at me.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

Yeah but Mike the point of this thread is that the memantine eliminates the tolerance so it won't poop out. Plus there's two camps on this messageboard I've noticed. Those who are naturally social but are inhibited by their anxiety and those that have anxiety due to the fact that they aren't naturally social or outgoing at all. I belong to the latter. I've been able to kill my anxiety with xanax and propranolol. The problem is it doesn't make me any more social. In fact it probably makes me less social.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Memantine SLOWS DOWN tolerance, it doesn't eliminate it. It will poop out just the same, it will merely take longer.

And I can convince my family doctor of almost anything. I get a slight cough, I can get hydrocodone syrup. I ask for hydromorphone (a narcotic slightly more potent than heroin...), and he'll trust me enough to prescribe. It's almost to the point of problematic because now I'm in a process of kicking a dependence to the stuff, but he knows I'm not a typical patient and realize how these things work and fully understand the potential consequences, so really it's my fault, not so much his.

BUT, getting amphetamines, despite the fact that they don't have nearly the same dependence liability, would be absolutely out of the question. I mean, I DO in fact get amphetamines, but I get them from my psychiatrist, and even then, SHE only acts on the recommendations of another psychiatrist for what kind of stimulant and how much to prescribe me.

The difference is, narcotics are normal for GP's to prescribe and as long as they don't do it excessively, it won't be scrutinized. Pain is often the result of an acute, self-resolving condition, and so often falls into the realm of what a GP does. GP's prescribing stimulants, on the other hand, is highly abnormal. Any condition (especially in an adult) requiring the use of stimulants is going to be very chronic and probably lifelong, and depending on the exact condition, is going to fall into the realm of a neurologist/sleep specialist, or a psychiatrist. A GP isn't even trained to properly diagnose these conditions, only to know enough to when a referral to an actual specialist is warranted. Even stimulant prescriptions to just a few patients from a GP is going to be heavily scrutinized, and they're rarely going to risk that just because someone happens to ask for it, ESPECIALLY for something so completely off-label.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

heavily scrutinized? So are you saying there's a supervising body that watches over all prescriptions being made by all gp's? If that's the case then yeah I can see how this might not happen. man what's another reasonable prosocial med other than stims that I could ask for? wellbutrin maybe?


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

DrewDrewson said:


> heavily scrutinized? So are you saying there's a supervising body that watches over all prescriptions being made by all gp's? If that's the case then yeah I can see how this might not happen. man what's another reasonable prosocial med other than stims that I could ask for? wellbutrin maybe?


Wellbutrin works for a lot of people and would be a lot easier to get, depending on where you live. Speaking of which, where does that happen to be? Getting Wellbutrin is much harder in the UK, for instance, and it would also help to understand just which supervising body you're dealing with... some countries are not as bad as others.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Thomas Paine said:


> I wasn't able to get any real amphetamines, but I was _barely_ able to get Provigil. For borderline narcolepsy, I guess. This was from a Neurologist though. Not saying I recommend it, I'm still getting used to it, but I think I like it. I have noticed a little paranoia during the last couple of days though.


My doctor had no problem prescribing Provigil. In fact, he had never even prescribed it before. When asked, he simply flipped through his PDR, realized the stuff is absolutely harmless and not controlled, and wrote out a prescription.

This was for my younger brother who knows absolutely nothing about medication, I wrote "modafinil" on a piece of paper and told him to show it. I recommended it to him because he was working by doing snow removal at the time, which is basically graveyard shift work, and modafinil is even sort of approved for that kind of usage...

I tried 200mg a few times myself and can't say I noticed any effect though, I actually ended up falling asleep.

(BTW, narcolepsy is a very specific disorder that can be scientifically demonstrated. While it's characterized by very subjective symptoms, it's actually a REM-sleep disorder which will be evident on a polysomnogram. You've either got it or you don't, I don't think there's anything that can be called "borderline" narcolepsy.)


----------



## mike8803 (Feb 21, 2010)

DrewDrewson said:


> Yeah but Mike the point of this thread is that the memantine eliminates the tolerance so it won't poop out. Plus there's two camps on this messageboard I've noticed. Those who are naturally social but are inhibited by their anxiety and those that have anxiety due to the fact that they aren't naturally social or outgoing at all. I belong to the latter. I've been able to kill my anxiety with xanax and propranolol. The problem is it doesn't make me any more social. In fact it probably makes me less social.


Well from experience with Xanax I can tell you, Xanax doesn't make you social, it eliminates the anxiety you have from BECOMING social. So if your thinking Xanax will help you become social, unforuntely you are incorrect.

You will need to go on a stronger medication that helps to BECOME social, _all Xanax does is calms your heart rate down so you dont have the anxiety if you have the ability to be social._


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm in the US. I'd imagine they're pretty strict here, as they are with everything else. I'm just going to explain there's a lot of people benefitting prosocially with the amphetamines and that it's what I need in my life to start living normally and happily. What else is going to get me more social. Not the ssri's, they'll just make me not care. The lack of social drive is the cause of all my problems. I'm at the point where I just want to be more social and hopefully he'll understand that. sorry if I hijacked this thread. :roll


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

DrewDrewson said:


> I'm in the US. I'd imagine they're pretty strict here, as they are with everything else. I'm just going to explain there's a lot of people benefitting prosocially with the amphetamines and that it's what I need in my life to start living normally and happily. What else is going to get me more social. Not the ssri's, they'll just make me not care. The lack of social drive is the cause of all my problems. I'm at the point where I just want to be more social and hopefully he'll understand that. sorry if I hijacked this thread. :roll


Yeah, the US is the worst. Controlled substance prescriptions are actually overseen by the DEA, and it's not uncommon for them to CHARGE doctors who they feel are inappropriately prescribing.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

yeah I've kind of just realized what the core of my issues is in the past few months. The xanax I always took with the intent of just killing the anxiety, I didn't expect it to make me more social. I always thought with social anxiety once you killed the anxiety then you'd be normal and social. But now I'm realizing, with the anxiety gone, sitting in class like a mute is still not normal.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

DrewDrewson said:


> yeah I've kind of just realized what the core of my issues is in the past few months. The xanax I always took with the intent of just killing the anxiety, I didn't expect it to make me more social. I always thought with social anxiety once you killed the anxiety then you'd be normal and social. But now I'm realizing, with the anxiety gone, sitting in class like a mute is still not normal.


Even if you completely get rid of social anxiety, chances are you've had it for most of your life and have missed out on a lot of the experiences that are essential for the development of adequate social skills. This is a fairly inevitable last step, and undoubtedly the hardest for most.

Drugs cannot do anything to help with this. Therapy can help, but your therapist will merely help guide you. Ultimately, it's on your shoulders. It takes a great force of will and a LOT of practice to make up for all the practice you likely didn't have...


----------



## Arisa1536 (Dec 8, 2009)

meyaj said:


> Yeah, the US is the worst. Controlled substance prescriptions are actually overseen by the DEA, and it's not uncommon for them to CHARGE doctors who they feel are inappropriately prescribing.


hee hee try living in new zealand
at least in the states if you have the money you can get whatever you want
look at the famous celebrities and what they take or have taken due to their "own personal doctors" thanks to wads of cash behind them.

Even in new zealand, a private psychiatrist that is not funded by the government would only prescribe a reasonable amount of Benzodiazepine, i would still be shot down flat if i asked for any type of amphetamine or ritalin even cough syrup LOL but its good in a way it means there are not people on heavy doses of things they do not actually need

however weed is very accessible here so more people take that as its cheaper than a doctors visit and takes the hassle out of pleading your case for a script. Its illegal but so many people do it, its as though the police do not care really....



mike8803 said:


> I don't understand why people take amph. and go on a roller coaster ride up and down up and down, when thats not how you fix or atleast try and help social anxiety, all your doing is making yourself into a crackhead for a couple hours
> 
> Why not try an MAOI, or TRI and go from there


I agree completely with this statement


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

But that could be debated Meyaj. The great "Are social skills learned or natural" debate. If you took the most popular, outgoing kid in high school and put him on a deserted island for 8 years do you think he'd lose any social skills? I tend to think not because I've always been quiet, but at the same time I've always had friends that I actively communicated with. More so in high school though. I've missed out a lot in the past 10 years because I've only had a couple friends. But even with all the friends I've had and socializing I've done I still feel off in social situations. I can communicate well. I just always lacked the desire to talk to people. Like when I go to the store, I'm there to buy something not to have a conversation with some stranger. Conversation just never came naturally to me and it might have been because at some point I started to lack any desire to talk to people. who knows, aren't we supposed to be the smartest animals on the planet too? cuz right now there's dogs all over the world licking their asses and not caring what anyone thinks. must be nice to have no problems lol


----------



## IllusionalFate (Sep 10, 2008)

inVis420 said:


> Is Adderall + Klonopin considered a speedball? Is it safe?


It's perfectly safe since benzos aren't strong CNS depressants, but it's not a speedball. A speedball is a psychostimulant combined with an opiate/opioid.



Arisa1536 said:


> well this is an interesting thread
> for one thing i never knew amphetamine was legal lol, i asked my doc about mixing adderral with memantine or taking a amphetamine and he laughed and shook his head and said "no way" because amphetamine will cause more anxiety when u come down off it also i am pretty sure anything ending with _amine_ is not legal, unless i am wrong off course i thought methamphetamine was a potent drug that you snort known as crank, spank, P, Ice, speed and so forth


the "-amine" suffix just means that the molecule contains an amino group (NH2). fluvoxamine (Luvox; SSRI) and propargylmethamphetamine (selegiline; MAO-B inhibitor) are two non-controlled meds that end with this suffix.



DrewDrewson said:


> I'm going to see my doc on friday to ask for dexedrine. I think I'll ask for memantine too. If I only take the dex 3 or 4 days of the week should I take the memantine everyday or just the days I take the dex?


You should take the memantine every day regardless of when or how often you take Dex.



meyaj said:


> I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself :lol


:lol Haha, yeah..



mike8803 said:


> I don't understand why people take amph. and go on a roller coaster ride up and down up and down, when thats not how you fix or atleast try and help social anxiety, all your doing is making yourself into a crackhead for a couple hours
> 
> Why not try an MAOI, or TRI and go from there


Ugh. Please don't derail this thread... :mum



meyaj said:


> Memantine SLOWS DOWN tolerance, it doesn't eliminate it. It will poop out just the same, it will merely take longer.


If you take it every day, I'm sure it would. I'm hoping that taking one or two days off per week will prevent this though.



DrewDrewson said:


> I'm in the US. I'd imagine they're pretty strict here, as they are with everything else. I'm just going to explain there's a lot of people benefitting prosocially with the amphetamines and that it's what I need in my life to start living normally and happily. What else is going to get me more social. Not the ssri's, they'll just make me not care. The lack of social drive is the cause of all my problems. I'm at the point where I just want to be more social and hopefully he'll understand that. sorry if I hijacked this thread. :roll


I'm in the same boat. And you didn't hijack this thread at all, you made some good points here.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

DrewDrewson said:


> But that could be debated Meyaj. The great "Are social skills learned or natural" debate. If you took the most popular, outgoing kid in high school and put him on a deserted island for 8 years do you think he'd lose any social skills?


It's a bit different in that case. An outgoing high-school kid has already had a ton of exposure and in terms of social development is already pretty damn mature. It's not so easy to just "lose" social skills, and that could certainly be debated.

But since social anxiety usually starts at a much younger age, there are typically a whole lot of situations you don't have much experiments with. An older high-school student has often had a lot of practice with nearly any kind of unique social situation you could think of. Not necessarily everything, but close to it. The experience of, say, a 6-8 year old, which is a much more common age at which to develop social anxiety, pales in comparison. They don't just have less practice, there's so much they haven't even been exposed to yet. And it very much has to be learned, there's no longer any real debate in this area. The fact that the rules of social interaction are largely CULTURE-bound should be evidence enough for this.

But if you're convinced it should take no effort on your part, I will hardly be able to sway you. This is exactly what I meant when I said that it is by far the hardest step towards beating the impairment that is a result of social anxiety. Many people want the easy answer but the simple fact of the matter is, even if social interaction is "just like riding a bicycle", if you've never even taken the training wheels off, at most you're ONLY going to be as good as where you left off.

If something caused you to develop social anxiety during mid-late adolescence, then sure, the legwork's probably already been done. But this is exceedingly rare. Unfortunately, for the vast majority of us, even when we find that perfect mix of medication, we still have a long way to go in order to functional socially at a normal level, and the impairment is such that even with a REAL effort, many of us will never FULLY "catch up".


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

yeah I didn't end up getting SA until I was about 14. Before that I didn't even know what anxiety was until one fateful piano recital. So I should have all my social skills intact as I didn't have SA when I was young and developing and I kept social throughout high school with my friends. Although most would label me as quiet back in high school. But still I feel unnatural in the social department. I'm hoping a stimulant or something will help but you could also be right meyaj, I may need to improve my social skills also after the drugs do what they do. I don't know. Seems like we're at a point where science is starting to really advance but unfortunately for us it's too early to benefit us. Whereas if things progress as they are, 100 years down the road all that may have to be done is give the mother a certain pill while she's pregnant and everything will be good. Or something really simple like that. Or maybe at that point extroverts will be outnumbered and then they'll start focusing on making them more introverted. Or maybe...ahh my brain's wandering again.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

mike8803 said:


> I don't understand why people take amph. and go on a roller coaster ride up and down up and down, when thats not how you fix or atleast try and help social anxiety, all your doing is making yourself into a crackhead for a couple hours
> 
> Why not try an MAOI, or TRI and go from there


Your forgetting here that some people only respond to amphetamines, MAOI's are no magic cure that help everyone, besides with amphetamine there are LESS side effects if well managed, + It would help my ADD.

I'm srry but your comment is ignorant of the difficulty of fixing this disorder.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DrewDrewson said:


> Yeah but Mike the point of this thread is that the memantine eliminates the tolerance so it won't poop out. Plus there's two camps on this messageboard I've noticed. Those who are naturally social but are inhibited by their anxiety and those that have anxiety due to the fact that they aren't naturally social or outgoing at all. I belong to the latter. I've been able to kill my anxiety with xanax and propranolol. The problem is it doesn't make me any more social. In fact it probably makes me less social.


Exactly.
And there are even those that DONT respond to benzo's at all, they do NOTHING for me, even GHB are alcohol are USELESS., There isnt any other option then a stimulant for me, and with memantine taking a stimulant long term would be possible.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DrewDrewson said:


> But that could be debated Meyaj. The great "Are social skills learned or natural" debate.


These are learned without a doubt, however they can be learned pretty easily once the social anxiety is gone, in the social anxiety state its pretty much impossible to learn social skills, because you cant even act normal.

The biggest problem of social anxiety, is also that you feel as anxious in the same situations, no matter how many times you expose yourself, you can go out every evening with your friends, and 2 years later you find yourself having as much anxiety as the first day:mum. Thats why medication is the key.



> If you take it every day, I'm sure it would. I'm hoping that taking one or two days off per week will prevent this though.


This would work in the long run *IF* your memantine dose is high enough, and currently i doubt 10mg a day would cut it if you take amphetamine 6 times a week.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

For those that cannot afford high doses of memantine, adding acamprosate may be an option, a member of dr bob, andrewb has been doing this for quite some time with succes, here's he's post about it.



> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020725/msgs/114108.html
> Re: Memantine?
> Posted by AndrewB on July 29, 2002, at 0:58:17
> In reply to Re: Memantine?, posted by velaguff on July 26, 2002, at 13:31:34
> ...


Acamprosate is alot cheaper then memantine, altough memantine can be ordered pretty cheaply online, some people rather dont order meds online.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

Hey crazymed, you seem to be pretty knowledgable on on all the different drugs and how they work on us. Tomorrow I'm going to my doctor with the daunting task of asking for dexedrine without a diagnosis of add or adhd. In the high likelyhood that he doesn't prescribe it, is there anything elese I should try? Is memantine on its own any good, or maybe ritalin? Things I've tried are Zoloft (made me schitzo pretty much), paxil (no effect), prozac (felt edgy right away and stopped quickly), effexor (no effect), lexapro (no effect), wellbutrin (can't remember but not much of an effect), depakote (helped in certain areas but wasn't prosocial). I'm aiming more for prosocial effects because as I've said before, my anxiety doesn't act up unless I'm in front of an audience. The SAD's very mild but I have zero social energy or desire to talk to anyone. But I have a desire to have friends and live a happy normal life so I'm a bit conflicted right now.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DrewDrewson said:


> Hey crazymed, you seem to be pretty knowledgable on on all the different drugs and how they work on us. Tomorrow I'm going to my doctor with the daunting task of asking for dexedrine without a diagnosis of add or adhd. In the high likelyhood that he doesn't prescribe it, is there anything elese I should try? Is memantine on its own any good, or maybe ritalin? Things I've tried are Zoloft (made me schitzo pretty much), paxil (no effect), prozac (felt edgy right away and stopped quickly), effexor (no effect), lexapro (no effect), wellbutrin (can't remember but not much of an effect), depakote (helped in certain areas but wasn't prosocial). I'm aiming more for prosocial effects because as I've said before, my anxiety doesn't act up unless I'm in front of an audience. The SAD's very mild but I have zero social energy or desire to talk to anyone. But I have a desire to have friends and live a happy normal life so I'm a bit conflicted right now.


Memantine on its own is very good, atleast for my OCD, there's another thread here called "memantine day2" with the experiences of a few other people, and most ppl liked it.

Are you sure you dont have ADD? Mild sad but allways tired and no desire to talk to anyone, while you want to be social, id look into ADD, that way you can get stimulants.

Ritalin would also make you prosocial and is easier to get, its not good as a SA killer, but for you the biggest problem is that you lack prosocialness and ritalin would help with that.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

cool, but I'd have to get an add diagnosis from a psychologist wouldn't I? I'm going to my gp tomorrow. I don't know if he's qualified to diagnose me for that. Also would memantine compliment ritalin the same way it would for straight amphetamines?


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DrewDrewson said:


> cool, but I'd have to get an add diagnosis from a psychologist wouldn't I? I'm going to my gp tomorrow. I don't know if he's qualified to diagnose me for that. Also would memantine compliment ritalin the same way it would for straight amphetamines?


I dont know, my GP prescribed me ritalin before without a ADD diagnosis, its also differend in every country.
Yeah memantine would go great with ritalin.


----------



## belfort (May 3, 2009)

yes it seems a few on here are confusing things..some have social desire but have social anxiety and that cripples them...so benzos usually help them tremenously...others, like myself have little to no social desire and little social anxiety so benzos simply do nothing for me..in fact they make me more apathetic and anhedonic...GHb works very well in giving me that pro-social effect as do amphetamines..i have tried going without them but then i am left basically being my introverted self..therapy and waving magic wands cannot help introversion, simple as that..i have social skills, they came easily to me but without social desire they are almost useless...in fact i have found good social skills backfire on me as people want to become friends but so often i see it pointless to even talk to people, including my own family...on amps i have that desire..why that is i dont know...

taking AMPS every day for the rest of your life isnt practical for most but they help short term and thats better than nothing...life is short, you take what works, make modifications to it and run with it...if amps dont work for you, take something else..


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

I think I need amps. I'm destroying my chances with some hot girls. I get nervous because I don't know what to say and then I become avoidant and then I screw my chances completely and feel like an ******* on top of it. Then the cycle repeats. This cycle needs to end. Did you have any trouble getting the amps belfort?


----------



## mike8803 (Feb 21, 2010)

lol...


----------



## podizzle (Nov 11, 2003)

so hows that memantine


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

Memantine has truly saved my life, i do not exaggerate. Although Memantine, by itself, doesn't offer me significant benefits (other than reduction of OCD) it pretty much, is the most important part of my regimen. It doesnt seem possible to actually prevent the tolerance to the Actual beneficial effects of Amphetamine, but....it is possible. I see no benefit in taking Amphetamine at all, if not combined with Memantine. I currently take 15 mg Memantine a day......5 and 10mg/day both significantly inhibited tolerance, however, only for a period of 2-4 weeks, I could take Amphetamine consistently (every day, 30mg) with its mood-elevating and anxiety-reducing and pro-social benefits, continuing to remain and be of use. When tolerance becomes a problem, i take short 2-5 day breaks from Amphetamine, and every time, my tolerance goes down significantly, and I am able to resume amphetamine, with its beneficial effects being much stronger again.

There is ALOT of evidence, that Memantine and other NMDA antagonists/glutamate antagonists reduce some of the neurotoxicity of Amphetamine. Some of the neurotoxicity will remain, regardless of NMDA antagonism.....however, glutamate itself, is responsible for a significant portion of amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity......honestly, Memantine appears to be, almost perfect, without any obvious shortcomings. It will only be a matter of time, before a negative effect of such, is discovered, but nevertheless, Its positive effects, appear to greatly outweigh its cost. Yay for memantine:yes


----------



## TMD18 (Sep 15, 2009)

Interesting...


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

podizzle said:


> so hows that memantine


Memantine on its own is excellent too, it drastically reduced my OCD without any side effects after the initial adaptation period, the lack of side effects and withdrawal is really awesome.:yes


----------



## n1kkuh (Jul 11, 2008)

hmm, I wonder if this would have the same effect on the tolerance that one undergoes with benzo's and opiates.


----------



## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

n1kkuh said:


> hmm, I wonder if this would have the same effect on the tolerance that one undergoes with benzo's and opiates.


I was wondering the same about PEA.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

n1kkuh said:


> hmm, I wonder if this would have the same effect on the tolerance that one undergoes with benzo's and opiates.


NMDA antagonists prevent tolerance to opiates, alcohol, nicotine, amphetamines and the sedative effects of benzo's but not the anxiolytic effect. They do prevent benzo dependency.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

n1kkuh said:


> hmm, I wonder if this would have the same effect on the tolerance that one undergoes with benzo's and opiates.


I think it might even be more effective with opiates, not sure about benzos. I found a really interesting study though regarding memantine that seems to be awfully relevant to us SAers.



Study Abstract said:


> Development of tolerance to opiates involves various neurochemically and pharmacologically distinct processes. For instance, the diversity of opiate tolerance has been suggested by experiments comparing the establishment of diminished response to different effects of opiate agonists. Antagonists acting at N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptors has become a very useful tool for studying opiate tolerance mechanisms since these drugs have been shown to retard the development of tolerance to analgesic properties of opiates. The present study compared the ability of two NMDA receptor channel blockers, dizocilpine and memantine, to affect the development of tolerance to morphine analgesia induced by repeated social defeat or by repeated morphine administrations. Male BALB/c mice were assessed for the tail-flick response before and after the defeat in five social confrontations, or before and after repeated morphine injections (20 mg/kg, s.c., once daily for 8 days). Repeated morphine injections were explicitly paired with environmental cues. Socially-defeated as well as morphine-treated mice developed significant tolerance to morphine analgesia. Separate groups of mice were exposed to repeated social confrontations or injections of morphine with each defeat or morphine injection followed by administration of either dizocilpine (0.03-0.3 mg/kg, i.p.) or low-affinity channel blocker memantine (3-30 mg/kg, i.p.). Both dizocilpine and memantine were effective in preventing the development of repeated morphine-induced tolerance to acute morphine analgesia. Treatments with NMDA receptor antagonists that retarded development of non-associative tolerance also suppressed the establishment of associative tolerance significantly. *Social defeat-induced tolerance was prevented by dizocilpine but not by memantine.* Our results suggest some degree of similarity in the mechanisms of morphine analgesic tolerance induced by pharmacological, contextual and social stimuli.


The implication that social defeat can induce tolerance is very interesting, I'd love to know more. Also interesting is that fact that a different NMDAR antagonist, but NOT memantine, can prevent it.


----------



## mark555666 (May 1, 2008)

n1kkuh said:


> hmm, I wonder if this would have the same effect on the tolerance that one undergoes with benzo's and opiates.


You are lucky. for opiates they work the best.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

Well I went to the doctor today and SUCCESS! I was prescribed dexedrine despite not having add or adhd. And he gave me a bunch of free samples of memantine. I just took 2.5 mg of the dex, how long does it take for this stuff to kick in? I only found one thing that said it takes 2 hours...


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DrewDrewson said:


> Well I went to the doctor today and SUCCESS! I was prescribed dexedrine despite not having add or adhd. And he gave me a bunch of free samples of memantine. I just took 2.5 mg of the dex, how long does it take for this stuff to kick in? I only found one thing that said it takes 2 hours...


NICE!!!!:clap:boogie

Dexedrine kicks in after around 20 minutes or something, take in mind memantine inhibits dexedrine for the first few days due to A7 antagonism, after the adaptation period amphetamine should be enhanced.

But i suppose your trying dex on its own first, wich is a good idea.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

yeah I thought I felt a little something already, but 2.5mg is probably just too small a dose for any real noticeable effects. I'm gonna take the other half now and see what happens. I decided to take the dex on its own for now along with a small amount of xanax as I've heard many mention this is a winning combo. Hopefully this will turn into a good long term treatment or at least until a wonder drug comes along that we can all agree on on this messageboard lol


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I personally need 10mg for good effects. I highly suggest to add in the memantine soon tough, as tolerance develops RAPIDLY.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

so at 5mg it has definitely lifted this massive depression I've had for the past month. I'm pretty confident and pretty damn hyper too. I'll see how my conversation skills are effected at work tonight. I work around people that I don't have much in common with and I have about 10 times the ambition and drive to do something with my life so it makes talking to these people hard at times. I guess that's what happens when you work an unskilled job while in college though. anyway I'm rambling. another effect maybe? Yeah the memantine I might start adding this weekend because I don't want to deal with the initial weird effects I've heard about while at work or school. Does the memantine add any additional therapeutic effects or does it just function as a protectant?


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DrewDrewson said:


> so at 5mg it has definitely lifted this massive depression I've had for the past month. I'm pretty confident and pretty damn hyper too. I'll see how my conversation skills are effected at work tonight. I work around people that I don't have much in common with and I have about 10 times the ambition and drive to do something with my life so it makes talking to these people hard at times. I guess that's what happens when you work an unskilled job while in college though. anyway I'm rambling. another effect maybe? Yeah the memantine I might start adding this weekend because I don't want to deal with the initial weird effects I've heard about while at work or school. Does the memantine add any additional therapeutic effects or does it just function as a protectant?


Memantine itself has been found effective for OCD, depression, ADHD, GAD and posttraumatic stress disorder. It also potentiates amphetamine and extends the duration apart from just preventing tolerance.

Here are all abstracts:
Obsessive compulsive disorder

A Single-Blinded Case-Control Study of Memantine in Severe Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder
Conclusions: This study provides preliminary supportive evidence for the effectiveness of memantine as a glutamatergic augmenting agent in severe OCD. Future randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trials are warranted.

Differential Efficacy of Memantine for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder vs. Generalized Anxiety Disorder: An Open-Label Trial.
Conclusions: These results suggest that memantine may have preferential efficacy in the treatment of OCD versus GAD. These preliminary findings warrant larger, placebo-controlled studies in OCD.

Memantine augmentation in treatment-resistant obsessive-compulsive disorder: an open-label trial.
SUMMARY: In this open-label augmentation trial of memantine in treatment-resistant OCD, almost half the subjects had a meaningful improvement in symptoms. Our study was limited by its small size, presence of comorbidities, and lack of control. Large double-blind placebo-controlled trials are needed to further test our findings.

Memantine augmentation for refractory obsessive-compulsive disorder. 
We report two cases of refractory obsessive-compulsive disorder treated with an augmentation of memantine at 15 mg/day. The first case did not benefit from such treatment, while the second showed immediate and substantial improvement.

Major depression

A double-blind, placebo-controlled study of memantine in the treatment of major depression.
CONCLUSIONS: In an 8-week trial, the low-to-moderate-affinity NMDA antagonist memantine in doses of 5-20 mg/day was not effective in the treatment of major depressive disorder.

Note that in trials where higher doses were used it was effective for major depression, the minimum dose for depression is 30 or 40mg.

An open-label, flexible-dose study of memantine in major depressive disorder.
Memantine demonstrated early-onset efficacy in patients with MDD. The treatment was well tolerated. This study suggests that double-blind, placebo-controlled studies of memantine in depression are merited.

Double-blind, randomized comparison of memantine and escitalopram for the treatment of major depressive disorder comorbid with alcohol dependence.
CONCLUSIONS: These data provide new evidence for the safety and potential efficacy of memantine and escitalopram for major depressive disorder in patients with comorbid alcohol dependence.

Post traumatic stress disorder

Pilot trial of memantine in the treatment of posttraumatic stress disorder.
These data suggest potential positive treatment outcomes, both cognitively and psychiatrically, and provide rationale for future double-blind, placebo-controlled studies of memantine in PTSD.

ADHD

A pilot evaluation of the safety, tolerability, pharmacokinetics, and effectiveness of memantine in pediatric patients with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder combined type.
CONCLUSIONS: This pilot study suggests that a memantine dose of 20 mg/day may be a safe and possibly effective treatment for pediatric ADHD. Further investigations of memantine in ADHD appear to be warranted.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

Alright this stuff's great! My usual quiet self at work has been transformed. Without any force at all I was a social person for most of the 3 hours I worked today. And not in a "wow that guy's weird and hyper and won't shut up" kind of way. This stuff just unveiled the real me. I had a sense of happiness and contentment that I don't remember having since I was a kid. A job that I normally despise I actually enjoyed and it went by real fast. I talked to people I normally never talk to. I imagine this is what life is supposed to feel like. 

I think the memantine will be great for tolerance and neuroprotection as I don't think I really have any of those other disorders. Well I had depression but this stuff took care of that. 

mike8803, the faster you open your mind and actually give this stuff a try, the faster you'll be feeling better. Drugs are drugs, they all affect the brain through chemical changes. Obviously crack and meth should be avoided but this small dose of dexedrine does not make you feel or act like a crackhead. It makes you feel normal. A little wired the first couple hours but after that you just feel like a normal extroverted person. 

DOCTORS NEED TO START RECOGNIZING THE POTENTIAL HERE


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Awesome to hear your positive experience!


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

DrewDrewson said:


> DOCTORS NEED TO START RECOGNIZING THE POTENTIAL HERE


Easy killer, you've only been using it for a day, lol. Your reaction is totally normal. Doctors know this is what happens, they're not completely oblivious.

The problem is that, even with memantine, if you use the drug consistently, the positive effects you are experiencing will quickly diminish. Tolerance is a *****. Since its usefulness is so limited, this is a large reason most doctors prefer not to prescribe it, because it's unlikely to help you in the long run.

I know some people tend to says "blah blah blah THE DEA blah blah blah" is the reason doctors won't really prescribe it, but even in countries with minimal oversight, it's not popular, because it's merely a bandaid and some studies have even shown that tolerance develops in some people to the point that their dopamine/norepinephrine is BELOW baseline, which is really significant. With a lot of drugs that induce a dependence, it will usually approach baseline and so while efficacy will diminish, it can still be there as long as you continue using the drug. Amphetamine has the potential to make you end up even worse than when you started over time.

So I'm glad to hear you like it so far, although it's hardly surprising. I don't think it merits a recommendation after a single day though... even the most pessimistic doctor would have predicted your positive experience. I'm more interested in hearing how it's working out for you in 6 months  My guess is you might feel very differently.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> The problem is that, even with memantine, if you use the drug consistently, the positive effects you are experiencing will quickly diminish. Tolerance is a *****.


The anecdotal reports indicate that just a 1 or 2 day break a week or a 7 day break after every 3 weeks is enough to fully control tolerance and use amphetamine long term, if the memantine dose is high enough and split into 2 dosages a day. This is a drastic difference from amphetamine on its own, wich is as you said not possible to use as a long term treatment on its own in most cases.

Offcourse anecdotal reports arent the best evidence out there, but the consistency is very promosing.

I understand your skeptism mejay, (wich is a good thing) and i too like to see how DrewDrewson does long term.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> The anecdotal reports indicate that just a 1 or 2 day break a week or a 7 day break after every 3 weeks is enough to fully control tolerance and use amphetamine long term, if the memantine dose is high enough and split into 2 dosages a day. This is a drastic difference from amphetamine on its own, wich is as you said not possible to use as a long term treatment on its own in most cases.
> 
> Offcourse anecdotal reports arent the best evidence out there, but the consistency is very promosing.
> 
> I understand your skeptism mejay, (wich is a good thing) and i too like to see how DrewDrewson does long term.


Even then, I find it hard to be satisfied with a "solution" that requires you to revert back to baseline (if not worse) for 1/3rd of the time... not much of a fix if you ask me :/ If amphetamine helps my mood or my sociability to the point where I'm able to reach successes in my life that I couldn't otherwise, whether it's a great job, a romantic partner, or whatever, the people involved generally won't want to put up with somebody who's unavailable 33% of the time. It's worse than rapid cycling bipolar in some ways...


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't know how bad your baseline is Meyaj, but I'll spend a third of my week at baseline if the amphetamine helps me a few days a week. No question about it. My baseline is just being a quiet guy in the background. It bothers me more than anyone around me. And taking such a low dose of amphetamine 2-3 days a week while being on memantine might be enough to halt any brain damage. Then again I'm a noob here though so I'm not sure of all the science behind this.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

If your baseline is acceptable enough that you don't think the positive effects you get will allow you to open any doors previously closed to you, it seems awfully unnecessary to be taking an amphetamine for a relative non-problem...

As for your relatively minor dose of 2.5mg, I REALLY don't expect that to be sustainable. Amphetamine's neurotoxic effects are largely caused by the oxidized byproducts of dopamine, the glutamate inhibition will only negate a small part of it.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> As you saw in my MAOI neurotoxicity thread this is actually not the case. MAO-B inhibitors do not block amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity and MAO-A inhibitors actually augment it (though this is probably simply a matter of amphetamine potentiation). Just thought I'd clarify..


Perhaps this is true, and may be the cautious thing to believe, but I'm reserving judgment until I see something in vivo and/or something using a non-selective inhibitor, preferably both. The study certainly raised some questions but it's difficult for me to see how somebody relatively intelligent and informed such as yourself take such a study to be conclusive.

In any case, it might warrant withdrawing that comment as I believe it was posted before your thread (or at least before I saw it) anyways, so it's probably incorrect to present the theory (no matter how sound it appears to be) as fact until something is more conclusively demonstrated.

Either way, it's kind of offset the fact that you'd have to be insane to take an identical dose both on and off Parnate (and I assume other MAOIs). Whereas 7.5-10mg was previously my comfortable dose, even 2.5mg is over-the-top for me now. I have to cut my pills in really odd ways now because it's only symmetrical along the score, but breaking a 5mg into half is STILL too much.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> As you should have seen from what you quoted:
> 
> It had nothing to do with the study.


I still don't see it but I'll take your word for it.

If I can assume that in any case it's true, and take your assumption that it's merely a result of potentiation, my comfortable dose is also restricted by that same potentiation, so by lowering my dose to achieve the same level of effects (as I mentioned I did), I would feel safe in assuming that it relatively evens out. It should also have SOME effect of reducing oxidative stress, so even if this is entirely true, even if the effect is very minor compared to the additional neurotoxicity the potentiation would cause, because the drug would be absolutely unbearable unless I adjust my dose accordingly, I think could still reasonably expect to have a net effect of at least slightly lower neurotoxicity overall.

Whatever your scientific or theoretical basis, based on the fact you claim it's probably a result of potentiation (which makes complete sense and SHOULD be expected, it would actually be kind of silly to argue with that), what you're saying clearly relies on comparing an identical dose, when I don't see any way in hell that a person would keep taking the same dose.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

meyaj, my baseline is being quiet with no desire to talk. And because of that I feel depressed and unconfident. The dex made me more social and have more of a desire for it, and enjoy it more. I wouldn't be on this forum seeking help if I had a non-problem. I'd be out enjoying life. My point is I can handle the days off from dex. I've been off meds for over 2 years but I'm now realizing how important it is in life to be outgoing and have friends and relationships. I took 5mg today too, no 2.5 but it's still a small dose that will inevitably have to be raised. 

I've also heard on these forums that the evidence of brain damage from amps is more so due to large doses. Would 5, 10, 15 mg doses a couple times a week cause any significant damage? I am concerned about this, it's not something I want to continue too long if it's just going to make things worse in the long run.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> Ohh I think I see where the confusion came from. I wasn't saying amphetamine and MAOIs were contradicted due to the combination resulting in neurotoxicity, I was just trying to make the point that MAOIs don't block it the neurotoxicity of amphetamine. Nothing more.


Oh okay. Yeah the claim may have seemed a bit bold although I still think it can have a positive effect. By protect I didn't mean completely prevent so much as reduce to any sort of degree. And even that is probably a bit preliminary.

The chances of it actually making amphetamine perfectly non-neurotoxic seem just as likely (or I guess more accurately UNLIKELY) as the chances that memantine can totally mitigate tolerance. They're both pretty absurd claims in my opinion.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

rocknroll, you mentioned pramipexole in that thread. What is that, is it supposed to be a safe alternative to amps or something? Also would antioxidants be an efficient protectant against oxidative stress from amphetamines?

Also I've known people with add who took adderall or something like it for years and they don't seem any worse for the wear. It may be possible that while some damage is taking place in one area of the brain from amphetamines, some other area may counteract that damage. I don't know, the brain is a pretty complex organ. I would say if someone's taken amphetamines for a long time and notices no cognitive impairments regardless of what physical damage took place, we shouldn't worry about it so much. In other words forget numbers and studies and just see what people have to say firsthand about how they feel after years of use.


----------



## fredericmoreau (Dec 1, 2009)

Regarding the debate on MAOIs and amphetamines (a combo I use), most sources I've read indicate that dopaminergic neurotoxicity is thought to be more a function of the deaminated metabolites (i.e. the ones that won't be present with concurrent MAOI use), than the O-methylated metabolites, which seem less prone to causing oxidative stress/cytotoxicity.

MAO-B oxidation of MPTP to MPP+ causes widespread DA necrosis and Parkinsonism, and can be prevented through MAO-B inhibition http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3928814. It is not beyond the pall of reason to believe MAO inhibition could be preventing DA toxicity through as yet unknown analogous pathways. The research right now is equivocal, however the concomitant use of MAOIs and stimulants has a relatively lenghy history and I would think any correlation between this particular drug treatment and Parkinson's would have been borne out by now.


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici (Jul 4, 2009)

rocknroll714 said:


> So whether antioxidants sufficiently avert amphetamine neurotoxicity is questionable. Whether you should take them with amphetamine anyway just in case is a no-brainer.


speaking of which-----what Are, some good Antioxidants? I know i need to start taking some, at least, because i barely eat any fruit/vegetables, i have little source of vitamins and other crap. I know of L-carnitine, which appears to be effective in reducing Amphs neurotoxicity. Melatonin = not applicable...NAC = blocks the effects of Amph. Are vitamin C and E actually useful, like, they get absorbed and into the brain and stuff?


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

> I would have to disagree with this statement. Memantine's half-life is 60-100 hours. That means it could take over a week to clear your system with a single dose. Taking it twice a day just seems like wasted effort to me.


The window of effects is not allways the same as the half life, look at amphetamine. Again this is from personal anecdotes of other people.



> I have been skeptical of what has essentially been the 'memantine blocks tolerance to everything [that matters]' and 'to a sufficient degree' claim since day one. Opioids.. stimulants.. even benzodiazepines? It just seems like wishful thinking to me. To my knowledge NMDA antagonists have only really been shown to block tolerance to opioid analgesia (something most of us here aren't really interested in on a personal level -- myself included) and for all we know the doses required may cross into the level of dissociation.


NMDA antagonists block tolerance to nicotine, alcohol, opiates, benzo's and stimulants because they raise glutamate to the levels of hyperexcitation, NMDA antagonists work by counteracting this increase in glutamate and making sure it doesnt overactivate the NMDA receptors, the optimal dose for this, are the doses that fully antagonize the increase in glutamate caused by those substances, so its impossible you go into dissociative doses.

I have been following and contacting people that use NMDA antagonists for tolerance for a while now, and i come to the conclusion that NMDA antagonists block the tolerance to the rewarding effects of opiates and amphetamine's, the other substances are all proven in rat studies, but i have yet to see any anecdotal reports on humans. I did see a few reports on DXM and ketamine blocking and reversing benzo tolerance, but those are only 3 reports.
EDIT: Also remember someone saying memantine blocked nicotine and phenibut tolerance.

Why do i think anecdotal reports are important? Well, CCK antagonists have been shown to completely reverse tolerance to opiates, yet the human reports are mixed and mostly negative, unlike with NMDA antagonists were ALLMOST ALL reports are completely positive and were i have a few long term reports, so thats why i say they are the key.

Another option to reverse tolerance is by the use of ultra low dose naltrexone, yet also with this method the results are mixed and reports very rare.



meyaj said:


> Even then, I find it hard to be satisfied with a "solution" that requires you to revert back to baseline (if not worse) for 1/3rd of the time... not much of a fix if you ask me :/ If amphetamine helps my mood or my sociability to the point where I'm able to reach successes in my life that I couldn't otherwise, whether it's a great job, a romantic partner, or whatever, the people involved generally won't want to put up with somebody who's unavailable 33% of the time. It's worse than rapid cycling bipolar in some ways...


There are reports of memantine succesfully preventing tolerance to amphetamine when taken on a regular basis, interesting is, that those reports i have are the most long term. (2 year and 18 months) The first report by andrewB (posted in this thread) describes him taking amphetamine daily with only a small 2 day break when it poops out wich rarely seems to happen. In the second report the user takes a 1 day break from amphetamine every week, and has succesfully blocked tolerance for 18 months now.

Saying that NMDA antagonists dont work is largely being ignorant of the inviduals who have benefited from them in the long run. (referring to people in general).

Personally i do beleive its possible to take amphetamine on a daily basis on memantine, because even if tolerance develops a small break makes amphetamine effective again (look for example at vini's and andrewb's report). I do recommend a 1 or 2 day break a week tough.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DrewDrewson said:


> meyaj, my baseline is being quiet with no desire to talk. And because of that I feel depressed and unconfident. The dex made me more social and have more of a desire for it, and enjoy it more. I wouldn't be on this forum seeking help if I had a non-problem. I'd be out enjoying life. My point is I can handle the days off from dex. I've been off meds for over 2 years but I'm now realizing how important it is in life to be outgoing and have friends and relationships. I took 5mg today too, no 2.5 but it's still a small dose that will inevitably have to be raised.
> 
> I've also heard on these forums that the evidence of brain damage from amps is more so due to large doses. Would 5, 10, 15 mg doses a couple times a week cause any significant damage? I am concerned about this, it's not something I want to continue too long if it's just going to make things worse in the long run.


There could be some braindamage however you will probably never notice anything of it, as after all these years we havent found amphetamine's cause any significant damage. There's a monkey study showing considerable damage, but the 2 year studies on ADHD patients contraindicate this study. So you shouldnt worry you can get the same ammount of damage, there CAN be damage, but its not anything significant. Or not anything you would notice significant downsides off.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DrewDrewson said:


> rocknroll, you mentioned pramipexole in that thread. What is that, is it supposed to be a safe alternative to amps or something? Also would antioxidants be an efficient protectant against oxidative stress from amphetamines?
> 
> Also I've known people with add who took adderall or something like it for years and they don't seem any worse for the wear. It may be possible that while some damage is taking place in one area of the brain from amphetamines, some other area may counteract that damage. I don't know, the brain is a pretty complex organ. I would say if someone's taken amphetamines for a long time and notices no cognitive impairments regardless of what physical damage took place, we shouldn't worry about it so much. In other words forget numbers and studies and just see what people have to say firsthand about how they feel after years of use.


You are correct that studies on ADHD patients dont see any significant damage, while damage may be done, you probably wont notice it.



> The chances of it actually making amphetamine perfectly non-neurotoxic seem just as likely (or I guess more accurately UNLIKELY) as the chances that memantine can totally mitigate tolerance. They're both pretty absurd claims in my opinion.


What is absurd about it? NMDA antagonists have demonstrated in animal studies over and over again to block the development of tolerance, the body induces tolerance by a certain cascade of events, if you inhibit a step in that, you inhibit tolerance.

The brain isnt something that magically induces tolerance, it works by differend mechanism, figure the mechanism out and counteract it.



> Even if you completely get rid of social anxiety, chances are you've had it for most of your life and have missed out on a lot of the experiences that are essential for the development of adequate social skills. This is a fairly inevitable last step, and undoubtedly the hardest for most.


I have to disagree with this, social skills are learned in a matter of weeks, thats all it takes to become a "fully developped" person. Atleast from my personal experience.

I beleive that SA inhibits social skills and not that a lack of social skills causes SA, when SA is gone you can learn social skills rapidly, just 3 weeks and your "normal" from my experience.


----------



## DrewDrewson (Mar 29, 2010)

I just did a quick google search for longest lasting antioxidant and got only a few results but they all said lipoic acid. None said how long it actually lasts but do you think it would be long enough to stop most of the damage from oxidative stress?


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

DrewDrewson said:


> I just did a quick google search for longest lasting antioxidant and got only a few results but they all said lipoic acid. None said how long it actually lasts but do you think it would be long enough to stop most of the damage from oxidative stress?


ALA is dodgy stuff, pycnogenol and alcar seem like better options imo.


----------



## karoloydi (Feb 18, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> I have to disagree with this, social skills are learned in a matter of weeks, thats all it takes to become a "fully developped" person. Atleast from my personal experience.
> 
> I beleive that SA inhibits social skills and not that a lack of social skills causes SA, when SA is gone you can learn social skills rapidly, just 3 weeks and your "normal" from my experience.


Thats true. But I think being able to speak eloquently is a different matter.


----------



## saer1212 (Apr 2, 2010)

Hi, can someone explain a few things to me. I am on zoloft, wellebutrin, klonalpin, ambien. I am leary with my doc because he is fed up with me changing meds. I have a attention D.D and was thinking about asking about addind redalin. Does ridilian also give you euphoria? 

Also, how long does the euphoria last? Is it constant? I have a severe social anxiety afraid of normal every daythings at times.

Please clue me in because I once took nardil and it was like I was a different person and achieved soooo much untill it stoped.

Thank you all

Also this combination that is mentioned in the first few post, how do you approach a doc. I might start fresh with a new doc. Did this combo really change your life


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> What is absurd about it? NMDA antagonists have demonstrated in animal studies over and over again to block the development of tolerance, the body induces tolerance by a certain cascade of events, if you inhibit a step in that, you inhibit tolerance.


Notice my use of the words "TOTALLY mitigate tolerance." As in, have a 100% effect. Even andrewB as you mentioned said he needs to take the occasional break, even if it's just rarely. But tolerance is actually induced in a number of ways... the one directly involving glutamate and repeated doses is probably the most prominent but memantine has even been studied and shown not to make even a little bit of difference in tolerance induced in other fashions.



http://www.springerlink.com/content/kpwrxe1qtkj7p89e/ said:


> Development of tolerance to opiates involves various neurochemically and pharmacologically distinct processes. For instance, the diversity of opiate tolerance has been suggested by experiments comparing the establishment of diminished response to different effects of opiate agonists. Antagonists acting at N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptors has become a very useful tool for studying opiate tolerance mechanisms since these drugs have been shown to retard the development of tolerance to analgesic properties of opiates. The present study compared the ability of two NMDA receptor channel blockers, dizocilpine and memantine, to affect the development of tolerance to morphine analgesia induced by repeated social defeat or by repeated morphine administrations. Male BALB/c mice were assessed for the tail-flick response before and after the defeat in five social confrontations, or before and after repeated morphine injections (20 mg/kg, s.c., once daily for 8 days). Repeated morphine injections were explicitly paired with environmental cues. Socially-defeated as well as morphine-treated mice developed significant tolerance to morphine analgesia. Separate groups of mice were exposed to repeated social confrontations or injections of morphine with each defeat or morphine injection followed by administration of either dizocilpine (0.03-0.3 mg/kg, i.p.) or low-affinity channel blocker memantine (3-30 mg/kg, i.p.). Both dizocilpine and memantine were effective in preventing the development of repeated morphine-induced tolerance to acute morphine analgesia. Treatments with NMDA receptor antagonists that retarded development of non-associative tolerance also suppressed the establishment of associative tolerance significantly. Social defeat-induced tolerance was prevented by dizocilpine but not by memantine. Our results suggest some degree of similarity in the mechanisms of morphine analgesic tolerance induced by pharmacological, contextual and social stimuli.


Interesting to post, on an SA board of all places, how social defeat at the very least supposedly induces tolerance to morphine analgesia (opioids also having much better evidence for a strong response to memantine as well.)

I think in a larger way though, it demonstrates that there are almost certainly ways of inducing tolerance that we are probably not even aware of yet. I believe CCK antagonists are useful in blocking associative tolerance (ie how opioid users develop a stronger tolerance just by using in the same environment, especially if not frequently enough to develop significant tolerance through repeated dosing in short intervals), but not necessarily non-associative tolerance.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah, but such rare moments where he has to take a break of 2 days isnt much of a problem tough.



> But tolerance is actually induced in a number of ways...


True, social defeat also induces amphetamine sensitisation. However those methods of inducing tolerance arent a huge problem like the repeated dosing problem imo.


----------



## podizzle (Nov 11, 2003)

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> speaking of which-----what Are, some good Antioxidants? I know i need to start taking some, at least, because i barely eat any fruit/vegetables, i have little source of vitamins and other crap. I know of L-carnitine, which appears to be effective in reducing Amphs neurotoxicity. Melatonin = not applicable...NAC = blocks the effects of Amph. Are vitamin C and E actually useful, like, they get absorbed and into the brain and stuff?


turmeric is a good antioxidant with tons of benefits


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> True, social defeat also induces amphetamine sensitisation. However those methods of inducing tolerance arent a huge problem like the repeated dosing problem imo.


Correct on both counts, but what's interesting to note is that while social defeat has been shown to sensitize rats to amphetamine, it's also associated with vastly increased self-administration of the drug, when one would usually be tempted expect the very opposite.

They may not be as huge problems, and like I said, I have no doubt memantine works to some degree, there's pretty much no question about it. But to COMPLETELY prevent repeated-dose tolerance, it seems like you'd have to block so much glutamate that it just isn't practical.

I'm fine with the theory and anecdotal reports and all, but there's so much we DON'T know that it's unreasonable to operate conclusively on these things alone. This is why drug trials are absolutely necessary. Heck, we still don't fully understand how SSRIs curb depression. The reuptake inhibition itself may have little if any direct effect on it. If this were the only mechanism, one would expect a drug like Stablon to make people more depressed, which clearly isn't the case.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

meyaj said:


> Correct on both counts, but what's interesting to note is that while social defeat has been shown to sensitize rats to amphetamine, it's also associated with vastly increased self-administration of the drug, when one would usually be tempted expect the very opposite.


Well, first i tought that sensitization ment that the rats get more reward from amphetamine, but that could not be true at all, i beleive now they get less reward from the drug, but have an increased density of dopamine receptors in the nucleus accumbens, this makes sense in the light of the evidence that dopamine is not a reward neurotransmitter but actually a wanting neurotransmitters. This increased dopamine density also causes a increase in locomotor activity.

Opiates induce tolerance to the pain reducing effects, however a opiates also induce a sensitisation to its locomotion effects, also from increased dopamine density.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

Well generally speaking, it's kind of the reverse of tolerance, although it's mediated through a completely different process. I'm pretty certain they should feel the effects of the drug MORE as a result of sensitization without co-occuring tolerance, which one would initially expect to mean less of the drug is needed. But cravings are increased and it's believed to play a major role in drug addiction (as opposed to dependence), even well after a user has been off the drug and dependence is long gone, explaining much of the ease with which addicts relapse.

So, if we can extend this study to humans, we could almost say that those of us with SA are practically wired to want amphetamines :lol


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

It depends to what effects there is sensitization, there's no way to measure reward directly in animals, they just can look at the locomotion induced by the drug. And indeed there's a sensitization to the locomoter effects of both amphetamine, and the same thing applies to morphine, but it may not happen to the rewarding effects.

In humans the effects of amphetamine never get better, the first dose is best and after that the reward decreases and the cravings get bigger, why would it be differend in animals? 

I have been discussing this with rocknroll714 on MSN, hopefully he can chime in as i'm really sleep deprived and i may not make any sense lol.

But i know what you are saying, thats how i viewed it a few hours ago, untill i talked with rocknroll714.


----------



## meyaj (Sep 5, 2009)

crayzyMed said:


> In humans the effects of amphetamine never get better, the first dose is best and after that the reward decreases and the cravings get bigger, why would it be differend in animals?


It wouldn't. Like I said, sensitization and tolerance are two very different processes (and even among tolerance there is more than one process, but for the sake of argument lets go strictly with non-associative, repeated-dosing induced), and they do co-occur. So when you keep taking a drug, the tolerance generally diminishes the effects/reward faster than the process of sensitization, but the increase in cravings is largely a result of sensitization, not tolerance. It's hard to see how both processes can be happening in your brain at once when it appears to just be one smooth process, but it can and has been scientifically demonstrated.

But, in something like social defeat which DOESNT induce tolerance to amphetamines and merely sensitization, you could expect increased cravings and response to the drug WITHOUT the counteracting influence of tolerance. The vast majority of the time we tend to think of tolerance as being induced via repeated dosing, and repeated dosing tends to induce cravings, therefore it makes a lot of sense to think they are merely the result of the same thing. But in controlled experiments, they can be induced and prevented in isolation with very different methods.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

I agree that they are 2 differend processes, but i'm wondering wheter senstization comes with increased reward.

Sentization comes with:
- Increased cravings
- Increased dopamine density in the nucleus accumbens
- Increased locomotion

I havent found a single reference to amphetamine tolerance in the literature, only sensitisation, while there is a tolerance to amphetamine. This is probably because we cant measure reward.

The literature is full of studies showing opiate tolerance, thats because they can measure the analgesia.

If we leave out tolerance and only look at sensitization, maybe the animals only got a increased locomotor response to amphetamine, while the reward stays the same as the first dose.


----------



## PartyBoyz87 (May 23, 2011)

Update on memantine Illusional?


----------



## beaches09 (Feb 1, 2009)

I think I might try this.

You guys rule.

How about some updated reports, what do you guys or anybody think about this combo, after some extended use have you guys found it to be worth adding the memantine?


----------



## Hercules7 (Oct 15, 2011)

How long does it take to adjust to the cognitive decline it causes initially bc of its acetylcholinesterase inhibition?

And if you're taking it with adderall, how long will memantine suppress the adderall before it starts working again (hopefully better than before)?


----------



## Hercules7 (Oct 15, 2011)

Bump


----------



## baranok (Nov 17, 2011)

i am curious how long you guys take Amp+Mema and how the effect you get to this day feels


----------



## Hercules7 (Oct 15, 2011)

Bump


----------



## The Professor (Jul 31, 2011)

Hercules7 said:


> How long does it take to adjust to the cognitive decline it causes initially bc of its acetylcholinesterase inhibition?
> 
> And if you're taking it with adderall, how long will memantine suppress the adderall before it starts working again (hopefully better than before)?


how would acetylcholinesterase inhibition cause a cognitive decline?


----------



## baranok (Nov 17, 2011)

then why would acetylcholinesterase inhibitors be used for Alzheimer's?


----------



## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Memantine + amphetamine isn't a good combination.


----------



## norad (Oct 24, 2011)

Legionnaire said:


> Also what's the best way to get a script for Amphetamine? Should I just tell my psychiatrist I think I have ADD?


I think this strongly depends on the doctor and wether he is open towards experimenting.


----------



## euphoria (Jan 21, 2009)

Legionnaire said:


> Sources? Argument? Experience? Any logic at all to back this up?


Mainly the fact that it's a pharmacological "perfect storm" for causing long term decline into psychosis. Dosage and disposition would be important factors in whether that would happen. Some people have found memantine combinations useful, it probably has value in some cases, but long term NMDA antagonist use on its own isn't particularly good for the mind; with the stimulant added you'd want to be very careful.

The biggest proponent of this combo went through several psychotic periods using memantine and amphetamine, and seems to be a lot worse than before lately. I've combined stimulants with NMDA antagonists - with a low dose of the NMDA antagonist, it just made the stimulant quite unpleasant and removed much of its motivational utility, and the mood elevation & cognitive boost were replaced by a sense of unease and confusion. Higher doses with a stimulant resulted in several days of total psychosis.

I don't know much myself, and this isn't a warning just because I've had bad experiences - it's based on reading posts by respected members on other boards who have said the same (with a lot more info to back it up).


----------



## Hercules7 (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm getting my info off wikipedia... it says its ATCH action on the nitocine receptors causes an initial cognitive decline, then it upregulates or something and there is an improvement... look it up... im not trying to get scientific here i just want to know how long it took for you guys to get through the fog on memantine?

and trust me, there is one, because i have been taking it and i havent been as sharp as usual



baranok said:


> then why would acetylcholinesterase inhibitors be used for Alzheimer's?


----------



## broflovski (Feb 1, 2011)

The Professor said:


> how would acetylcholinesterase inhibition cause a cognitive decline?


Reasonable question, from what I know acetylcholine (and acetylcholinesterase inhibition therefore) is always mentioned as pro-cognitive. Btw, some chemical warfare agents are acetylcholinesterase inhibitors. Anticholinergic agents are used as standard antidotes.



Hercules7 said:


> I'm getting my info off wikipedia... it says its ATCH action on the nitocine receptors causes an initial cognitive decline, then it upregulates or something and there is an improvement...


Wiki says it blocks receptors for that pro-cognitive acetylcholine (nicotinic type), thus diminishing the action of the mediator and causing that fog.


----------



## Noca (Jun 24, 2005)

Legionnaire said:


> Okay. I've never had problems with psychosis so I'm still game.


That is because you have not taken this combination yet.


----------



## bben (Oct 24, 2009)

euphoria said:


> Mainly the fact that it's a pharmacological "perfect storm" for causing long term decline into psychosis. Dosage and disposition would be important factors in whether that would happen. Some people have found memantine combinations useful, it probably has value in some cases, but long term NMDA antagonist use on its own isn't particularly good for the mind; with the stimulant added you'd want to be very careful.
> 
> The biggest proponent of this combo went through several psychotic periods using memantine and amphetamine, and seems to be a lot worse than before lately. I've combined stimulants with NMDA antagonists - with a low dose of the NMDA antagonist, it just made the stimulant quite unpleasant and removed much of its motivational utility, and the mood elevation & cognitive boost were replaced by a sense of unease and confusion. Higher doses with a stimulant resulted in several days of total psychosis.
> 
> I don't know much myself, and this isn't a warning just because I've had bad experiences - it's based on reading posts by respected members on other boards who have said the same (with a lot more info to back it up).


He is right. In lab studies scientists use nmda antagonists (such as memantine but often stronger ones) and on its own this can cause psychosis even in normal people. When combined with an amphetamine they were able to totally recreate schizophrenia in rats and in some cases it did not go away, ever.

Most people I know that have used the memantine/amphetamine combo for long periods of time start to get psychotic spectrum symptoms and they often do not realize it and deny it. Lack of self awareness being common in psychotic spectrum illness.

Yo hit me up on msn euphoria.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

bben said:


> He is right. In lab studies scientists use nmda antagonists (such as memantine but often stronger ones) and on its own this can cause psychosis even in normal people. When combined with an amphetamine they were able to totally recreate schizophrenia in rats and in some cases it did not go away, ever.
> 
> Most people I know that have used the memantine/amphetamine combo for long periods of time start to get psychotic spectrum symptoms and they often do not realize it and deny it. Lack of self awareness being common in psychotic spectrum illness.
> 
> Yo hit me up on msn euphoria.


What a bunch of crap.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

euphoria said:


> Mainly the fact that it's a pharmacological "perfect storm" for causing long term decline into psychosis. Dosage and disposition would be important factors in whether that would happen. Some people have found memantine combinations useful, it probably has value in some cases, but long term NMDA antagonist use on its own isn't particularly good for the mind; with the stimulant added you'd want to be very careful.
> 
> The biggest proponent of this combo went through several psychotic periods using memantine and amphetamine, and seems to be a lot worse than before lately. I've combined stimulants with NMDA antagonists - with a low dose of the NMDA antagonist, it just made the stimulant quite unpleasant and removed much of its motivational utility, and the mood elevation & cognitive boost were replaced by a sense of unease and confusion. Higher doses with a stimulant resulted in several days of total psychosis.
> 
> I don't know much myself, and this isn't a warning just because I've had bad experiences - it's based on reading posts by respected members on other boards who have said the same (with a lot more info to back it up).


If you talk about me i only went psychotic when overdosing on stimulants.


----------



## crayzyMed (Nov 2, 2006)

Memantine and amphetamine both have been shown to be usefull adjuncts for shizophrenia.


----------



## InTheWorldOfNiM (Oct 3, 2010)

crayzyMed said:


> Exactly.
> And there are even those that DONT respond to benzo's at all, they do NOTHING for me, even GHB are alcohol are USELESS., There isnt any other option then a stimulant for me, and with memantine taking a stimulant long term would be possible.


alcohol does nothing for you no matter how drunk you get? thats a first. when i'm drunk, I'm the happyest most annoying person around.


----------



## focuspocus (Sep 11, 2013)

Hi everyone,

Greetings!

Im new to this forum. I was curious if the OP and others who used to use the combo of Amphetamines and Memantine are still getting the same effects?

Im starting with Ritalin(5mg twice daily) and memantine(5mg) daily ratio, and i was looking for some advice regarding how to proceed to avoid tolerance. I think i shall still take one day off a week on Ritalin anyway.

Im also bipolar and hence i hope the memantine will help, as there are some studies that show its benefit in bipolar disease too.


----------



## Chris John (Jul 4, 2013)

focuspocus said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> ...


I've messaged illusionalfate, the one who started this thread, as well as a couple others who have taken memantine with an amphetamine. Everyone I've messaged has said that taking memantine + amphetamine did not work over the long term for treating sa/depression. I haven't found anyone who has taken it over the long term for sa/depression who has said it was successful. Those I messaged also said that memantine delays tolerance but will not prevent tolerance. Illusionalfate actually doesn't think memantine does much of anything in terms of tolerance prevention. I'm really not sure what his initial post was all about. Maybe his results were very short lived.

Based on my expierience and research, stimulants work for increasing focus, energy, and motivation. The pro social and mood uplifting aspects of stimulants go away over time. There's really no way to avoid this that I've heard of. And I've been looking long and hard for ways to avoid this.

If your worried you'll build tolerance to the focus and energy aspect of stimulants, most people gradually increase their dosage during the first couple months of taking stimulants but then level out at a moderate dose which they can take pretty much everyday. A few days off every now and then wouldn't hurt though. I've also found that taking tyrosine with a stimulant increases the effectiveness of the stim and reduces any crash that might've otherwise occured. But I've only tried tyrosine out a couple times so I'm not completely certain of this. Sorry for the length.


----------



## wealldead (Jun 20, 2014)

up, memantine 5mg with nardil is safe ? 

And how many days we have totakememantine to decrasethe amphet tolerance?

thank you


----------



## Caedmon (Dec 14, 2003)

The "memantine for amphetamine tolerance" idea is a pretty big stretch. I wouldn't count on it.

Amphetamine complications are related to neurotoxicity and changes in VMAT2 transporter function. While D2 downregulation is also an issue, it isn't THE issue unless you are chasing a high. 

A better option to augment amphetamine would be antioxidants n-acetylcysteine, melatonin, MAOIs, and/or broad spectrum glutamate modulators like lithium or lamotrigine. And take breaks!


----------



## gilmourr (Nov 17, 2011)

Caedmon said:


> The "memantine for amphetamine tolerance" idea is a pretty big stretch. I wouldn't count on it.
> 
> Amphetamine complications are related to neurotoxicity and changes in VMAT2 transporter function. While D2 downregulation is also an issue, it isn't THE issue unless you are chasing a high.
> 
> A better option to augment amphetamine would be antioxidants n-acetylcysteine, melatonin, MAOIs, and/or broad spectrum glutamate modulators like lithium or lamotrigine. And take breaks!


I agree with what you said about taking breaks. That's how you avoid tolerance. Your body is always in a state of trying to reach homeostasis. Your body naturally builds up the tolerance by reacting to whatever meds you take. The main reason I think that there arent tolerance issues with antidepressants and antipsychotics is that they downregulate receptors like 5HT2A in the long run and D2 receptors. It's easier to keep antagonizing (shutting off) a receptor rather than keep it on with the same effects long term.

Usually taking stimulants alone is not the answer to social anxiety. I can't see as to why it would be.


----------



## wealldead (Jun 20, 2014)

Are you sur ??? But memantin isnt dangeroos for people ?? Because it s for alzheilmer people !! Is it possible that it create's alzheimer ???? Because i wanted to use memantine court time for decrease the benzo tolerance too...


----------



## Amy7 (May 4, 2021)

Very helpful since it will be good to have the method of action when asking my doctor if she would prescribe Memantine in order to help with my rather high tolerance to Adderall that I've built up over the years. I got to the point of having to take 210 mg of IR in one dose, but after a three year break I'm now taking 60-80 mg per dose (but the effectiveness is decreasing). Since I'm only prescribed 50 mg per day I have to go without it for multiple days every month and I feel tired and depressed. If anybody has any studies, journal articles, etc on the subject it would be very helpful if you could post a link.


----------



## romanthoney (Oct 29, 2021)

crayzyMed said:


> Your forgetting here that some people only respond to amphetamines, MAOI's are no magic cure that help everyone, besides with amphetamine there are LESS side effects if well managed, + It would help my ADD.
> 
> I'm srry but your comment is ignorant of the difficulty of fixing this disorder.


lol he is right though it is crack. Ive been taking it since i was 13 and when i dont take it i look just like those withdrawel documentaries


----------

