# Settle for ugly women or be alone forever?



## Nernef (Nov 21, 2015)

I've always struggled talking to anyone, but especially women and showing any romantic interest. With my social anxiety as well as being quite poor financially and lacking friends and a social circle, it's become even harder the older I've become. 

The years roll by, now 2016 and my last kiss was 12 years ago, I'm still a virgin and feel like killing myself. Not just because of the lack of a sex life, but because my life is a joke in all other ways.

I try online dating and attractive women around my age seem interested at first. But once they dig a little deeper, they can tell something is off and I lack experience so it ends before anything has even begun. 

But I find the ones I find physically unattractive, don't seem to mind my inexperience so much. They accept me as I am and are more down to earth and nice to chat with. I feel bad that I feel no motivation to meet up with these women though. I feel sick imagining kissing them or more. I really wish I could force myself to like them!

I don't look like a male model or actor by any means, but I'm above average looking for my age and got excepted on beautifulpeople.com. I'm tall and muscular, although carrying a few extra pounds of which a new diet will sort out.

The women in my looks range, expect much more from a guy, I know I could never measure up unless I became rich and had more to offer. It's very frustrating, maybe I should pay for a young prostitute so at least I won't be a virgin anymore, but I feel too anxious to try and find paying a turn off, I feel no motivation. I'd rather lose it to a real girlfriend or someone willing who I find attractive and she likes me, but that is becoming more of an unrealistic fantasy than ever! 

So guys and girls, have you ever settled for someone you don't find attractive and how do you do it? :serious:


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## LolaBlueBerry88 (Jan 4, 2016)

No I don't like to think that I'm above anyone else...I'm not sure what you mean by "good looking." I think I got an idea of what you find pretty but I won't say it because I don't want to be attacked.

I don't think any man should hire a prostitute...they may have some kind STD not worth it..

I'm just going to drop a picture here and you tell me if you find her pretty


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## RandomDane (Dec 7, 2015)

So.. What you're asking is, whether we think that It's okay for you to lead a person you have no really interest in, on, in order to have sex?


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

RandomDane said:


> So.. What you're asking is, whether we think that It's okay for you to lead a person you have no really interest in, on, in order to have sex?


That pretty much sums it up, me thinks.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

If you feel sick thinking about kissing them then don't bother, but if they're just not as attractive as you hoped for then just settle dude, and you're a guy with SA, you don't get to be picky. Or just pay for it like you said, do it somewhere legal and find a woman who looks exactly like your fantasy.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Sep 5, 2015)

probably offline said:


> That pretty much sums it up, me thinks.


IF you were a guy you would know that if u are 25+ and a loser by society norms than it is impossible to attract a good looking woman . I don't see anything wrong with this , both the guy and the girl will get something out of it . He will stop being a virgin(or whatever he is looking for) and she will get the company of a much better looking man which is usually very hard .


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## indielife (Jun 17, 2015)

Lowering your standards doesn't mean going for the bottom of the barrel; there is a category called "average" for a reason, so how about starting there and moving your way up (unless you find love before moving up).



TheInvisibleHand said:


> IF you were a guy you would know that if u are 25+ and a loser by society norms than it is impossible to attract a good looking woman .


Just because you're not able to doesn't mean it's impossible. A lot harder than for the average guy? Sure. Impossible? Far from it.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Sep 5, 2015)

indielife said:


> Just because you're not able to doesn't mean it's impossible. A lot harder than for the *average guy*? Sure. Impossible? Far from it.


guy with SA is not average ...


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## indielife (Jun 17, 2015)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> guy with SA is not average ...


I never said so now did I? Read what I wrote again.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Sep 5, 2015)

indielife said:


> I never said so now did I? Read what I wrote again.


 Why are you talking about an average guy then ? :con


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## indielife (Jun 17, 2015)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> They why are you talking about an average guy then ? :con


Maybe you should learn what "than" means, then we'll talk. For now, what you're saying doesn't make sense.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Sep 5, 2015)

indielife said:


> Maybe you should learn what "than" means, then we'll talk. For now, what you're saying doesn't make sense.


Yeah go after my spelling mistake when you have nothing better to say . You need to learn the difference between a average guy and a guy with SA . Giving advice to a SA guy and at the same talking about a average guy is what doesnt make sense here .


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## indielife (Jun 17, 2015)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> Yeah go after my spelling mistake when you have nothing better to say . You need to learn the difference between a average guy and a guy with SA . Giving advice to a SA guy and at the same talking about a average guy is what doesnt make sense here .


Jesus Christ dude, do you still not understand what I mean? I NEVER said anything about your grammar, but rather that I used the word "THAN":



Google said:


> than
> ðan,ð(ə)n/Submit
> conjunction & preposition
> 1.
> ...


Anyway, no more quoting back and forth. Let's just leave it at that. This is not going anywhere and is steering away from the real topic at hand. I'm sure OP didn't have this in mind for his thread.


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## iAmCodeMonkey (May 23, 2010)

Wow. The above two posters really needed to stop *****ing.

As for the OP, good luck!


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## Hayman (Dec 27, 2014)

Hi @Rotting. I know I lag notably behind other men when it comes to talking to women. I can stutter out of nervousness and lose track of what I'm saying mid sentence. No matter what I do takes this away. If I take my time and think of what I want to say before I actually say it, the effects are reduced notably so, but it's clear I'm looked upon as some sort of sad individual. In recent years I do feel as though I've made steps forwards and I'm comfortable that I've made improvements. Especially where eye-contact is concerned. However, I feel as if it's only two steps forwards out of about a hundred I need to make to get even remotely close to other men's standards.

If you read my other posts, I regularly say I'm a dateless virgin. I've yet to kiss, yet to have a date and yet to have even just a lengthy, one to one meaningful conversation with a lady. In short, I'm still very much stuck at the 'starting grid' of this race - of which everyone else of my age left this stage more than 14 years ago, climbed over all the hurdles by 10 years ago and now have all had their medals, added popularity and gone home again. Me? I'm left sitting at the starting grid&#8230; 

I know where you're coming from with regards to expectations from ladies. From my experience (when I've tried and made the effort), the older you get, the higher those expectations will be. Sadly, if you lack 'experience', you aren't likely to get anywhere. It's a horrible catch-22 situation that older virgins find themselves stuck in. They want to join in and have a normal life, but no one will take them because they haven't 'done it' before. I was turned down at the start of my 20's because of this. Now I'm the wrong side of 30, I'm laughed at and made to feel three inches tall. Twice last year alone, I was referred to as "_just a boy&#8230;_" by two separate ladies . One aged 28, one aged 30. The stigma held against virgins is very much real. It's demoralising and ruthlessly demeaning against men who find themselves stuck in this position. They're also blamed for being in the position without a consideration that perhaps they have actually tried - but find themselves completely unappealing to women because they have no desirable, outgoing, egotistical and over-confident traits. We're told over and over again to '_be confident_", but how can you be confident if no one is willing to chuck you some seeds to actually grow/develop it? We can't merely be confident from an entirely negative situation. The only people who can help us are those who have actually been in our position and lost their virginity much later on in life. They'll know the depths of our despair and frustration to not have had any relationships for many years or at all - never mind those who only find themselves out of one for a few months before another fling simply materialises for them.

Those who have got somewhere can develop more. Those who can't get anywhere are left to rot with no assistance other than to be told the usual generic phrases of "_be confident_" and "_go out more_" - which clearly doesn't work for quieter men. They've tried and failed. Where do we go after this&#8230;? Accept we're lifelong single people&#8230;? This is the stage I find myself at.

I've never had the chance or opportunity to settle for someone who I don't find attractive&#8230; I've never had the pleasure of actually getting as far as a one to one talk with them for starters! I'm usually completely snubbed or told to get lost even before I open my mouth&#8230; Yet, it's the men that are always told to "_lower your standards_" without so much of a hint of irony. :um

The situation really is that dire.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

You can't, you'll just hurt them and make yourself unhappy.

Online dating is hit and miss. How built are you? Women aren't always into that.



TheInvisibleHand said:


> Why are you talking about an average guy then ? :con


Sorry but your back and forth is going to bother the **** out of me unless I explain he was not correcting your use of 'then' which was correct, he was saying you didn't understand how he said it's harder for a guy with SA THAN the average guy, but still not impossible.


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> How built are you? Women aren't always into that.


If 48 out of 50 wo men like built, 1 likes slim and 1 fat I think you can safely assume built guys are going to be at an advantage.

Also @ OP, stay class sas


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SaladDays said:


> If 48 out of 50 wo men like built, 1 likes slim and 1 fat I think you can safely assume built guys are going to be at an advantage.
> 
> Also @ OP, stay class sas


That's not what I asked, men overestimate how attractive women find it. Most women find it unattractive past a certain point, even those who like muscles. They're also more likely to appreciate it when it's low body fat + muscle instead of just large. This will be especially true in the UK and anywhere that isn't North America tbh.

Best way for OP to know would be to go on Tinder with no profile information, or hardly any, and see how many matches he gets.


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## SaladDays (Nov 26, 2013)

Persephone The Dread said:


> That's not what I asked, men overestimate how attractive women find it. Most women find it unattractive past a certain point, even those who like muscles.


Certainly, though I doubt guys can achieve that kind of muscle mass without the use of steroids.



> They're also more likely to appreciate it when it's low body fat + muscle instead of just large. This will be especially true in the UK and anywhere that isn't North America tbh.


Yeah, you're right on that one too, I guess its built > slim >>>>>>>>>>> fat


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## LostinReverie (Mar 18, 2007)

Alone forever. Nobody wants to date someone who thinks they are better than others.


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## dune87 (Aug 10, 2015)

it's 1000000 times more attractive to be a virgin than to be someone who acquires such a cynical mindset


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

SaladDays said:


> Certainly, though I doubt guys can achieve that kind of muscle mass without the use of steroids.
> 
> Yeah, you're right on that one too, I guess its built > slim >>>>>>>>>>> fat


Oh no I didn't mean fat I meant like slim built > truck. People are more open minded to bigger guys in the US, that's just what I've noticed as a general rule. You'll find some women who like certain body types everywhere though.

Anyway tbh OP would be better off posting his online dating profile here for people to comment on generally. It's pretty much like writing a CV so you have to try and downplay or reword any things that could be negative so they sound better, and play up the good parts. It's frankly BS, I think if people can find another way they should try that instead..

*Edit:* Nevermind I re-read the first post, yeah it probably isn't your looks or profile if they seem interested until talking to you.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

probably offline said:


> That pretty much sums it up, me thinks.


Nice flippant comment.

How could you possibly understand what it's like? You're beautiful and can get any guy in the world you want. You dont know what its like to be unwanted and have no one even the slighest bit appealing interested in you.

Have you ever even tried to understand what guys on this site, guys with SA go through? It wouldn't kill you to have a bit of empathy.


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## Arbre (Mar 9, 2014)

I don't think anyone should settle. You should find someone you're actually in love with.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

mjkittredge said:


> Nice flippant comment.
> 
> How could you possibly understand what it's like? You're beautiful and can get any guy in the world you want. You dont know what its like to be unwanted and have no one even the slighest bit appealing interested in you.
> 
> Have you ever even tried to understand what guys on this site, guys with SA go through? It wouldn't kill you to have a bit of empathy.


How come you're quoting me and not @RandomDane, who made the actual comment? Interesting.


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## Nernef (Nov 21, 2015)

LolaBlueBerry88 said:


> No I don't like to think that I'm above anyone else...I'm not sure what you mean by "good looking." I think I got an idea of what you find pretty but I won't say it because I don't want to be attacked.
> 
> I don't think any man should hire a prostitute...they may have some kind STD not worth it..
> 
> I'm just going to drop a picture here and you tell me if you find her pretty


I don't think I'm "above anyone else" so to speak, finding someone you want for a relationship seems inherently selfish to me anyway. I'm not sure I'm cut out for it, but I still feel a strong need to connect intimately. Porn is no real substitute, I may as well be in prison fapping away everyday.

I find a broad range of women attractive, like over 85% aged 18-45 on dating sites as an example. Being more socially isolated and not having friends to go out with has screwed my life up more really.

At least I got some drunk kisses in clubs years ago. But I feel too old for that now, plus going alone is really depressing. That girl in the picture is attractive of course, who is she? It's mostly white women where I am, I'd be open to dating any race. It's just lack of opportunities and my own issues.

Emphasis on my own issues and lack of desirability in what I can offer, plus I struggle to show any personality. Anyway, I kind of wish the mods would have deleted this thread. It makes me sound really shallow and not very nice. but oh well.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Take a positive perspective on dating down - you feel less nervous because you don't care as much about the outcome. And sometimes even a person who isn't very attractive can have things in common with you, interests and hobbies to talk about and do together. You might like their personality a lot. They might be great sexually.

I've dated some women I mostly wasn't attracted to, and overall it's gone well. The hottest sex I've ever had was with some women who were pretty average looking. But they knew it so they upped their sex game, they made more effort, were more passionate. They figure they can't keep you with looks so they'll win you over in other ways.

It's sad the state of dating has become in the western world, where women can date up and most guys have to date down or go without. What I mean is women can date men more attractive than them because they are in demand and are gatekeepers of the nookie. They are the sellers and men are the buyers, they control the price because guys will give nearly anything to get some. Unless you are a high status, high confidence, beautiful wealthy guy you don't get to decide or call the shots with dating, you just have to take whatever you can get or be alone, and play the game by their rules and demands. Sucks to be powerless huh?

Society is partly to blame. We train girls from an early age to be princesses and to think they are worth everything and a bag of chips when it comes to relationships. The hypergamous instincts go out of control. They're fussy, they're demanding, they're difficult, they're confusing. Men are pretty simple by comparison. We don't expect much. Most women are at least a little bit appealing to us. But most men are not attractive to women. And even if they find you physically attractive that's not enough. You have to show confidence and social skills or they won't feel any 'chemistry' towards you.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

probably offline said:


> How come you're quoting me and not @*RandomDane* , who made the actual comment? Interesting.


You might as well have made the comment yourself since you agreed with it. How come you didn't answer me? You're going to sit in judgement of the OP with zero understanding. So much for a support site.

beauty queen just pops in to make her snippety little comment that adds no value to the discussion. Admit it, you don't know what it's like for OP which mirrors the plight of many men on this site and you don't want to understand.


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## vsaxena (Apr 17, 2015)

Cue the words of the indelible George Constanza:



> Oh, what's the point? When I like them, they don't like me; when they like me, I don't like them.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

"Emphasis on my own issues and lack of desirability in what I can offer, plus I struggle to show any personality. Anyway, I kind of wish the mods would have deleted this thread. I makes me sound really shallow and not very nice. but oh well."

Don't beat yourself up OP. Trying to date and form a relationship with SA is a huge struggle. I applaud you for being honest and wanting to have a discussion about your feelings and thought process. You are definitely not alone in it. Trying to find our strengths and show them so we can get more of what we want and showcase our positives.

All men and women think about their looks in relation to others, and how much they can get. It's only shallow if looks is the only thing you care about.


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## visualkeirockstar (Aug 5, 2012)

You don't have to do that.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

mjkittredge said:


> You might as well have made the comment yourself since you agreed with it. How come you didn't answer me? You're going to sit in judgement of the OP with zero understanding. So much for a support site.
> 
> beauty queen just pops in to make her snippety little comment that adds no value to the discussion. Admit it, you don't know what it's like for OP which mirrors the plight of many men on this site and you don't want to understand.


What's wrong with you lately? You seem angry and bitter.

I agreed with him because I think that it's a crappy thing to do to use "ugly" people because you can't get anyone who's "up to your standards". Like an experiment. Settling is a ****ty thing to do, if you ask me. I have never denied that it's harder for someone unattractive, or someone with SA for that matter, to find a mate. You're getting way ahead of yourself, and it seems like you just want to insult me a bit, to be honest, and you assume a lot about me(someone you don't know).


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

Persephone The Dread said:


> You're in no position to talk to anyone about 'so much for a support site.'
> 
> And now I've said this you're going to get pissed off at me and start insulting me. Go on then, prove my point further. opcorn


Sure I've had arguments with people that got a bit heated, and I've told off some people that insulted, harassed and provoked me. That aside, the vast majority of my posts have been supportive.

I'm not pissed at you and not going to insult you.


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## Xenacat (Oct 20, 2015)

I haven't always got to date the hottest guys out there. When I have they are a pain because all the ladies like them but how about you "just date" some of these ladies. Yes, get practice and don't do anything you don't want to do. Some folks are not photogenic and may look better in person. It really sounds like your social skills are lacking and going out may help you get some practice in. Being attractive is really important in a relationship. Pick the ladies who you deem most attractive you may get lucky with someone you meet in person. Before going out practice some conversation openers. Women love to talk so they can do most of the talking, I mean what do you have to lose.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

probably offline said:


> What's wrong with you lately? You seem angry and bitter.
> 
> I agreed with him because I think that it's a crappy thing to do to use "ugly" people because you can't get anyone who's "up to your standards". Like an experiment. Settling is a ****ty thing to do, if you ask me. I have never denied that it's harder for someone unattractive, or someone with SA for that matter, to find a mate. You're getting way ahead of yourself, and it seems like you just want to insult me a bit, to be honest, and you assume a lot about me(someone you don't know).


Lately? I've been angry and bitter all my life after what I went through growing up.

Where did he say or imply he was going to USE people or call anyone ugly? There are just some nice women he talks to that he doesn't find physically appealing and is considering giving them a chance in spite of that. I've been there, I've done that, it's been mostly positive experiences for me. Wish I didn't have to and I could simply get dates with women I found attractive all the time. But that's not how it works in this modern dating scene.

I haven't insulted you, quite the contrary I've complimented you. Just irritates me how as a guy I have to make all the effort to initiate contact, lead the conversation, ask them out, pay for the dates, be so many things to qualify for attention and pass all of a womans tests, and lower my standards to have anything as far as dates or relationships. It's like a neverending circus of jumping through hoops. I play their game, by their rules, not because I want to but because I have to.

Whereas if I were a woman I would only have to be even slightly attractive and simply show up and people would fall all over themselves to get me. I wish it could be that easy for me.

Have YOU ever had trouble getting an attractive date or lover? Hold on a second, I have to laugh at that question for about ten minutes. You, with all your genetic lottery winnings, to come on here and look down on the OP is ridiculous.

When I read the OP I can relate. When you read it, you think "Wow, what an a****le!"


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

mjkittredge said:


> Whereas if I were a woman I would only have to be even slightly attractive and simply show up and people would fall all over themselves to get me. I wish it could be that easy for me.


Keep living with that delusion, buddy.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Sep 5, 2015)

probably offline said:


> Keep living with that delusion, buddy.


How is it a delusion when every guy on this forum who has severe SA (including me) can tell you that from experience it is true ? Nobody is really asking you to agree but calling people delusional when they experienced it first hand doesn't make sense to me .You had 2 options in this thread ,you could have not responded to him or u could have stated some examples how he was wrong or said something about your experience( if u have any) that could have helped him understand your position .You chose to call him delusional which borders a personal attack .


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## gunner21 (Aug 4, 2012)

You do realize women have other things to offer other than their looks, right?


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

probably offline said:


> Keep living with that delusion, buddy.


It's not a delusion!

An average blonde I met, 6/10 showed me her on phone all the dozens of messages she'd got from guys that day. Nice redhead 7/10 showed me her inbox nearing maximum capacity of 5,000 messages. And on and on.

They can choose any one of them! Or all of them. It's easy mode. Being a woman in the dating world is like putting in a cheat code to a video game for infinite lives and infinite ammo.

Guys compete with each other to buy them drinks and dinner and other things. They've got endless options and all they have to do is show up and they are golden. If a guy goes on a date with a woman she has to work hard to screw that up because he already wants her.

How is that a delusion when it's completely true? You never have to be alone a day in your life if you don't want to be. There's an endless amount of interested guys for you to pick from. You don't have to do anything besides look good. You can have a horrible personality, treat guys like crap, barely talk or make any effort and they'll put up with it because you're hot and you have a slot.

Do you just not want to admit it? Is it like an embarrassment of riches?


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## Evo1114 (Dec 9, 2012)

I love when guys claim they have 'first hand knowledge' of what it's like to be a woman. Lol.


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> How is it a delusion when every guy on this forum who has severe SA (including me) can tell you that from experience it is true ? Nobody is really asking you to agree but calling people delusional when they experienced it first hand doesn't make sense to me .


Are you a woman? If not, you can't.
_
You can talk about your experience as a man, but not the other way around._

I can guarantee that there are many "slightly attractive" women here on SAS who don't experience that men "fall all over themselves" to get with them.



mjkittredge said:


> It's not a delusion!
> 
> An average blonde I met, 6/10 showed me her on phone all the dozens of messages she'd got from guys that day. Nice redhead 7/10 showed me her inbox nearing maximum capacity of 5,000 messages. And on and on.
> 
> ...


I suspected that you would base all your "knowledge" on dating sites. Getting the same spam that every other woman gets on a dating site doesn't count for much. Most of those guys are just looking for sex, with anyone.

Women can get sex way easier than men, but not get into relationships.

I don't have a problem admitting anything, but I am getting tired of this argument now. I guess I'll go attend to my supposed harem of men now.

Adios:3


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> How is it a delusion when every guy on this forum who has severe SA (including me) can tell you that from experience it is true ? Nobody is really asking you to agree but calling people delusional when they experienced it first hand doesn't make sense to me .


I'm wondering if they don't want to admit it or just don't realize it. Perhaps they are so used to all their advantages that they take them for granted. Or don't like to agree with how unfair it all is.

They could get a dozen dates lined up within an hour. I could send a dozen messages a day for a month and not get a single date. This is where we are at in the dating world here in western society where men have no power and no value and constantly have to prove themselves.

But I'm the one who is delusional. Of course.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

I certainly can talk about the experiences women have shared with me and their experiences I've witnessed. I'm not just making things up out of thin air.


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## SamanthaStrange (Jan 13, 2015)

mjkittredge said:


> How is that a delusion when it's completely true? You never have to be alone a day in your life if you don't want to be. There's an endless amount of interested guys for you to pick from. You don't have to do anything besides look good. You can have a horrible personality, treat guys like crap, barely talk or make any effort and they'll put up with it because you're hot and you have a slot.


Some of us are looking for a guy who wants to do more than _stick it in our slot_. You are confusing the ability to get laid with the ability to form and maintain meaningful relationships.



probably offline said:


> I can guarantee that there are many "slightly attractive" women here on SAS who don't experience that men "fall all over themselves" to get with them.


Exactly. Thank you.


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## M0rbid (Jan 11, 2011)

Id rather castrate myself.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

SamanthaStrange said:


> Some of us are looking for a guy who wants to do more than _stick it in our slot_. You are confusing the ability to get laid with the ability to form and maintain meaningful relationships.


Yeah I realize that. But myself and many other guys are looking to date and form a meaningful relationship too. I don't think all those offers are men ONLY wanting sex and nothing else.

If I had to choose between an endless sex buffet or a happy relationship with one person, I'd choose the relationship. Sure I wouldn't turn down casual sex but it's not the number one goal or my preference. It's just better than nothing.


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## M0rbid (Jan 11, 2011)

Where do you people get this info that many guys only want sEx? The truth is many guys want meaningful relationship and sex.


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

Yes while it's true that women do have more prospects and more guys interested, admit it women you do, I think a lot of these men only just want sex and the woman can pick up on it. 

I think girls just want a guy who gets them. Someone who cares about them as a person as well.


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## Persephone The Dread (Aug 28, 2010)

mjkittredge said:


> *I'm wondering if they don't want to admit it or just don't realize it.* Perhaps they are so used to all their advantages that they take them for granted. Or don't like to agree with how unfair it all is.
> 
> They could get a dozen dates lined up within an hour. I could send a dozen messages a day for a month and not get a single date. This is where we are at in the dating world here in western society where men have no power and no value and constantly have to prove themselves.
> 
> But I'm the one who is delusional. Of course.


I'm not going to name names, but I could disprove your point if I was inclined to about some women on this website... All I'll say is, be more observant.


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## mjkittredge (Sep 8, 2012)

probably offline said:


> Are you a woman? If not, you can't._
> You can talk about your experience as a man, but not the other way around._
> I can guarantee that there are many "slightly attractive" women here on SAS who don't experience that men "fall all over themselves" to get with them.
> I suspected that you would base all your "knowledge" on dating sites. Getting the same spam that every other woman gets on a dating site doesn't count for much. Most of those guys are just looking for sex, with anyone.
> ...


I really really doubt you'd have trouble getting a happy & serious relationship. Hardest part for you would be which guy to choose. If a guy gets a chance with a woman like you, he's going to take it and make the most of it.

You seem to think I'm hostile towards you. I'm not. I'm hostile towards the mindset of not wanting to acknowledge the huge titled see-saw of the dating world. I'm not saying women don't have their own set of struggles when trying to deal with men and dating. Some men will cheat, some will lie and pretend to want a relationship just to get laid. I know. But you can get them when you want them and date up. Most guys can't, we go without a lot of the time and date down. Hence the OPs post. That's all I'm trying to say.

It's not that crazy is it? I know, you're out, you're done with this. Thanks for the discussion and insights. I mean that, no sarcasm.


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## Konev (Jan 3, 2016)

xxDark Horse said:


> Yes while it's true that women do have more prospects and more guys interested, admit it women you do, I think a lot of these men only just want sex and the woman can pick up on it.
> 
> I think girls just want a guy who gets them. Someone who cares about them as a person as well.


Most of the girls that talk to me (because I'm too shy to talk first) are sadly only interested in sex. I have no clue where the girls are that most guys "complain" about that have an interest other than sex.


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## Evo1114 (Dec 9, 2012)

Lots of lolz all over the place!

Anyways,

You don't have to 'lower your standards' for anybody. If you have trouble finding a woman who matches your physical requirements, chances are more likely that you are putting way to much into those requirements. 

I hate to say 'lower your standards', since that is awfully demeaning to women, but when I was in my 20's, I had pretty strict requirements as far as how women looked. I didn't go out on a single date between ages 22 and 29. When I started dating just 'normal' women, I realized that I really could be attracted to somebody who didn't look like they belonged on a magazine cover. And since then I have been on MUCH more dates and find much more women attractive physically.

Women have different issues that they get bombarded by dudes looking for sex and therefore they are more apt to give up than weed through hundreds of messages, most of which say 'hey baby, you're hot, what are you doing?' Combine the two issues and nobody gets together with anybody.


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## Evo1114 (Dec 9, 2012)

And I have actually spoken to a few women on here who (I thought) were very attractive who were/possibly still are VERY lonely and had only been on a handful of dates. 

This argument has been disproved so many times...I wonder how many more times we can expect it to come up. (Plus I thought 'who has it worse' wasn't allowed).


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## JohnB (Oct 14, 2015)

probably offline said:


> I can guarantee that there are many "slightly attractive" women here on SAS who don't experience that men "fall all over themselves" to get with them.
> Adios:3


LOL Is saying slightly attractive just a nice way of saying ugly?


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## probably offline (Oct 8, 2012)

JohnB said:


> LOL Is saying slightly attractive just a nice way of saying ugly?


You have to ask the one who said it in the first place:



mjkittredge said:


> Whereas if I were a woman I would only have to be even *slightly attractive* and simply show up and people would fall all over themselves to get me. I wish it could be that easy for me.


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## Evo1114 (Dec 9, 2012)

xxDark Horse said:


> I laugh when women complain saying ohhhh it's soooo hard to find a man. Bunch of baloni. You want to know why some ladies find it hard? Because they're ugly and/or fat, simple as that. Most guys don't like fat girls and they're only willing to date them if they're forced to settle. I'm not going to be sugar coating anything, I tell you the truth and if you don't like it, then move along.
> 
> And personally I don't give a **** what any of you think of me, i'm just telling you the truth.
> 
> I like being a man for the most part but if there's one thing I hate about being a man, it is how much harder we have it with dating, prospects, or simply getting laid.


Well, I think most guys who find it hard are ugly and fat themselves, so all is fair.


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## Nernef (Nov 21, 2015)

Xenacat said:


> I haven't always got to date the hottest guys out there. When I have they are a pain because all the ladies like them but how about you "just date" some of these ladies. Yes, get practice and don't do anything you don't want to do. Some folks are not photogenic and may look better in person. It really sounds like your social skills are lacking and going out may help you get some practice in. Being attractive is really important in a relationship. Pick the ladies who you deem most attractive you may get lucky with someone you meet in person. Before going out practice some conversation openers. Women love to talk so they can do most of the talking, I mean what do you have to lose.


Yes my social skills are lacking, my anxiety was arguably worse in my teens and early 20s especially which helped set me on this path. I still avoid things that would help maybe, because of how it makes me feel and I sometimes get to the point of getting headaches and feel sick. Antidepressants only really helped with the depression.

I know from first hand experience you need more social skills to get a woman, than say a gay guy, I had chances but didn't take them so lets not linger on that...! :O

It's getting to the point of being comfortable and relaxed in the company of the girl that likes you too. They want to feel safe and comfortable straight away unless they find you really attractive I found. Like to "let you off" any awkwardness. But still didn't want a second date after haha.

I know I need to work on things and I didn't mean to to come across shallow and seem like I only want "hot women". This thread really sucks.


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## xxDark Horse (May 13, 2015)

Evo1114 said:


> Well, I think most guys who find it hard are ugly and fat themselves, so all is fair.


Yup. Man or woman, if you're ugly you have it harder. It's part of the reason i'm single thats for sure.

But the benefits of being an attractive or decent looking female, especially females in their 20s or younger is much better compared to attractive or decent looking men. At least in terms of prospects because everybody knows how much more attention females receive compared to men from the opposite gender.

Did I forget to mention that women tend to be more picky in who they choose to date? They may only be willing to date/sleep with 1 in 10 to 1 in 25 of the guys they meet. Meanwhile men will pretty much sleep with any girl who's decent looking and shows interest.


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## Evo1114 (Dec 9, 2012)

Well, I think it's more respectable, safer, what have you to do the 1 in 25 strategy than the 1 in 10. 

By nature, women seek more a suitable 'mate' who would best provide for their offspring (even if they aren't planning on creating offspring with another person). By nature, dudes go for the most attractive...not necessarily who would be the best mother for their offspring. Blame nature...don't blame women, as so many people have done so often on this site.


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## McFly (Jul 15, 2014)

Evo1114 said:


> Well, I think it's more respectable, safer, what have you to do the 1 in 25 strategy than the 1 in 10.
> 
> By nature, women seek more a suitable 'mate' who would best provide for their offspring (even if they aren't planning on creating offspring with another person). By nature, dudes go for the most attractive...not necessarily who would be the best mother for their offspring. *Blame nature*...don't blame women, as so many people have done so often on this site.


Yup, society is controlled by biology more than people think.

Us guys are encouraged to put beauty on the top of the attractiveness scale when it comes to women. So it's our own undoing when hot women are given so much free privilege with all the attention they get.

OP is not a shallow bad guy that some people may think. A lot of guys out there have too high of standards or have been led to believe that 'be yourself' will get you the hot blonde chick. If you're not getting the results that you want then dropping your standards is something to consider. Though doing so just to get laid with an 'ugly' woman is a bit immature.

But like Gunner said, there's much more to a woman than just her looks. Especially if you want more than just sex.


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## truant (Jul 4, 2014)

_*Warning:* Generalizations ahead. There are countless exceptions, yadda yadda yadda._

OP, don't settle for someone you're not attracted to. You'll end up making yourself and the other person miserable. You can't do much about your sexual experience, but you can make yourself more appealing to women in lots of other ways. Women are flexible and there are all kinds of women with all sorts of preferences.

There is one thing that many women don't like, though: most women don't want to feel like your happiness and sanity depends on them. It's a tremendous responsibility and no one likes being forced into the position of being someone's mother or therapist. The best way to kill a woman's libido is to put her in the position where she feels like she has to take care of you. Women have evolved to take care of children, so if you give her the impression that that's what you are, that's how she'll treat you. It's not sexy.

Women don't care so much about _what_ drives you, but they like to know that _something_ does. That you have a reason for existence that has nothing to do with sex or relationships, preferably something that demonstrates you're making a difference somehow, whether that's by increasing your own wealth and financial status or improving the lives of other people. There's a reason why women are attracted to men who build things, men who save people's lives, men who create art or music -- because they're all doing _something_ to make the world a better or more interesting place. Those are the people you can imagine _building_ a life with. The confidence that women find attractive comes largely from the knowledge a man has that he's good at something and that he is making a difference.

Ime, it seems that the men who struggle the most with women are the listless ones, the ones who have little drive or motivation or interest in anything beyond entertaining themselves or just getting through the day. Those are the men who will try to make you the point of their existence and put all the responsibility for their happiness on you; and then it's up to you to live their life for them, which isn't remotely appealing. There's a reason why women are more likely to use words like "deadbeat" and "loser" to criticize men than "ugly" and "fat": because if you're a man it's worse to have no drive or initiative than it is to be unattractive.

Social skills are really secondary to that, though they're obviously important because you have to have some way of letting a woman know that you exist. In my own case, I can overlook a man's appearance or awkwardness if I feel like there is something intriguing about them. My interest comes from the passion and dedication that they have for whatever it is they value.

Anyone who has any doubts about what most women want is welcome to go immediately to the romance section of their bookstore and read a few of the millions of books women have written that explore in painful detail all their deepest darkest fears and desires.

tl;dr I expect this entire post to be ignored. You should probably spend your time watching cat videos on YT.



mjkittredge said:


> How is that a delusion when it's completely true? You never have to be alone a day in your life if you don't want to be. There's an endless amount of interested guys for you to pick from. *You don't have to do anything besides look good. You can have a horrible personality, treat guys like crap, barely talk or make any effort and they'll put up with it because you're hot and you have a slot.*


I'm going to quote this every time a man makes a hypocritical thread about how women are only interested in dating jerks.


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## meepie (Jun 20, 2010)

It's social anxiety that is hindering you here not exactly women. Work on that so you have more opportunities to meet women outside of online dating sites. As for online dating , it seems some guys are messaging every single girl they find remotely attractive. This makes it harder for the girl to decide and harder for a compatible guy to come along and stand out. By messaging a girl you dont find attractive, youre furthermore contributing to this problem.


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## WrongDoers (Jan 1, 2016)

truant said:


> _*Warning:* Generalizations ahead. There are countless exceptions, yadda yadda yadda._
> 
> OP, don't settle for someone you're not attracted to. You'll end up making yourself and the other person miserable. You can't do much about your sexual experience, but you can make yourself more appealing to women in lots of other ways. Women are flexible and there are all kinds of women with all sorts of preferences.
> 
> ...


This is an incredibly insightful post. You've reinforced some the suspicions I had about what one finds attractive in men. Thanks for sharing.


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## MobiusX (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm ugly so I have no chance with good looking girls, I don't even have a chance with a high school girl, she would be too cool for me, the only chance I have is with my mom, that's it.


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## MobiusX (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm so ugly I need a customized mask, I want to design a mask just for me, maybe 3 different kinds and wear them depending on my mood like michael myers mask, it looks scarier than the jason mask, the jason mask looks like a hockey mask, I like horror masks, I like the kind that doesn't show any expression like michael myers mask and still looks scary


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## loneranger (Dec 29, 2012)

MobiusX said:


> I'm so ugly I need a customized mask, I want to design a mask just for me, maybe 3 different kinds and wear them depending on my mood like michael myers mask, it looks scarier than the jason mask, the jason mask looks like a hockey mask, I like horror masks, I like the kind that doesn't show any expression like michael myers mask and still looks scary


 You've got to be joking.


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## MobiusX (Nov 14, 2008)

loneranger said:


> You've got to be joking.


I am freddy krueger son, my face has permanent holes due to acne that dermatologist say there is no fix, this is it, I'm stuck with this face forever, now I wait to die


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## loneranger (Dec 29, 2012)

MobiusX said:


> I am freddy krueger son, my face has permanent holes due to acne that dermatologist say there is no fix, this is it, I'm stuck with this face forever, now I wait to die


 Sigh


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## tehuti88 (Jun 19, 2005)

mjkittredge said:


> Nice flippant comment.
> 
> How could you possibly understand what it's like? You're beautiful and can get any guy in the world you want. You dont know what its like to be unwanted and have no one even the slighest bit appealing interested in you.
> 
> Have you ever even tried to understand what guys on this site, guys with SA go through? It wouldn't kill you to have a bit of empathy.


Hi there. I'm not beautiful and can't get any guy, period. I know exactly what it's like to be unwanted and have no one PERIOD interested in me. I understand exactly what guys with SA go through, *even if they can't always be bothered to empathize with me in return*. Yet I still agree with the basic sentiment that it would make me feel incredibly lousy if a guy "settled" for me out of desperation or as practice for landing a much prettier woman.

So...where's your "You don't know what it's like!!" rebuke for women like me...?



mjkittredge said:


> Whereas if I were a woman I would only have to be even slightly attractive and simply show up and people would fall all over themselves to get me. I wish it could be that easy for me.
> 
> Have YOU ever had trouble getting an attractive date or lover? Hold on a second, I have to laugh at that question for about ten minutes. You, with all your genetic lottery winnings, to come on here and look down on the OP is ridiculous.


There are quite a few of us who don't meet even the minimum requirements ("slightly attractive"--like that's the ONLY requirement for anything other than easy sex!) guys insist on. Yet somehow even we women who have zero guys beating down our door are still told we have it so easy. Strange.

(BTW, telling someone how easy they have it, and laughing scornfully at them, AND making all sorts of assumptions, is in no way a "compliment." Especially not when that person has the same disorder you do.)



Evo1114 said:


> I love when guys claim they have 'first hand knowledge' of what it's like to be a woman. Lol.


There are guys here who claim they know my personal experiences better than I do myself. It's weird. :um

...

OP, no, you should not "settle." Especially not as a means to just get more experience. I've never had any guy interested in me whatsoever...yet I prefer that to the thought of a guy picking me because the woman he really wants isn't an option. I'm betting if you settled you'd both end up feeling pretty resentful, and instead of a learning experience you'd just have a lousy experience. Make sure your standards are reasonable--but don't drop them completely.

I know you're looking for a relationship or sex, but is there any possibility you could just befriend any of these unattractive women?--and maybe get more comfortable communicating with women in general? Just as long as they're aware friendship is all you're looking for. That seems like a more useful way to gain experience.


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## Evo1114 (Dec 9, 2012)

MobiusX said:


> I am freddy krueger son, my face has permanent holes due to acne that dermatologist say there is no fix, this is it, I'm stuck with this face forever, now I wait to die


Get a 'hot guy' mask instead? That seems it would be the better route to go.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

Actually I think women more often than not date down. Usually the woman in a couple is the more attractive one. And if it's the reverse, often times the guy is cheating on her with various women.


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## M0rbid (Jan 11, 2011)

komorikun said:


> Actually *I think women more often than not date down*. Usually the woman in a couple is the more attractive one. And if it's the reverse, often times the guy is cheating on her with various women.


You havent been to nyc or used online dating sites.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

komorikun said:


> Actually I think women more often than not date down. Usually the woman in a couple is the more attractive one. And if it's the reverse, often times the guy is cheating on her with various women.


I don't really see how you can compare attractiveness between genders like that. In all actually quantifiable categories, women just about always date up and men date down, speaking generally, with exceptions existing.


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## M0rbid (Jan 11, 2011)

Wings of Amnesty said:


> I don't really see how you can compare attractiveness between genders like that. In all actually quantifiable categories,* women just about always date up and men date down.*


Dont bother. They will continue to deny it.


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## komorikun (Jan 11, 2009)

I see women with nice trim bodies, dressed well, hair all nicely done dating balding guys with pot bellies and unkempt beards.


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## Wings of Amnesty (Aug 5, 2015)

komorikun said:


> I see women with nice trim bodies, dressed well, hair all nicely done dating balding guys with pot bellies and unkempt beards.


Probably because those guys are paying for those clothes and hair appointments.


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## wmu'14 (Sep 17, 2010)

I can't even get ugly chicks!


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## M0rbid (Jan 11, 2011)

wmu'14 said:


> I can't even get ugly chicks!


Shhhhhhhh..... Quiet.


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## Ape (Sep 27, 2014)

Don't settle boo!


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## a degree of freedom (Sep 28, 2011)

@truant -- That was really great insight; thanks for that.


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## EvonneEzell (Jul 14, 2014)

I would settle. I get what you are saying but I think it's sad that we only choose to date or like someone who is "attractive". It's not their fault that they are considered by society's (and your) standards. I often wonder if people with SA who are mainly insecure about their looks and try everything to perfect them, look for others who mimic that perfection...if that makes sense. lol.


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## a degree of freedom (Sep 28, 2011)

*Who has it Worse*
This site is not a competition - it's not about whose particular brand of suffering is the worse, who suffers more than whom, or who has the right to call their problems Social Anxiety. This includes comparisons of suffering between the genders. The belittlement of others' suffering will not be tolerated.

*Bigotry*
Any content which is deemed by the staff to contain racial, sexual, religious, or any other kind of bigotry will be locked, edited or removed. This includes excessive gender stereotyping and inciting or engaging in gender "wars."


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