# I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!



## Medline

First of all: Don't try this at home kids! I have year long experience with psychoactive drugs, which I am not really proud of. :-( I've made a lot of mistakes, some of which I could have paid the ultimate price for - my life. Nevertheless giving up wasn't an option for me at any point.

SAD involves dysfunction of the Serotonin-, Dopamine-, GABA-, Oxytocin- and probably Norepinephrine-System.

Fact: about 30-40% of patients do not adequately respond to a treatment with first line agents (SSRIs/SNRIs). These people might be helped by long term Pregabalin/Clonazepam or MAOI-treatment. But some have to be considered "therapy resistent".

Hypothesis: Elevating levels of 5-HT, DA, GABA, NE and Oxytocin in the CNS increases the probability of making a complete recovery. Low dose of the NMDA-antagonist Cycloserine may help to "hardwire" the results in the brain.

My regimen:

*2 x 300mg Moclobemide / day:*

Increases levels of Serotonin and Norepinephrine.

*2mg Selegiline / day:*

Works on Dopamine, but leaves enough Monoamine Oxidase so that Tyramine can be broken down and no special diet has to be followed.

*4 x 1.5ml of GBL / day:*

Non-toxic precursor for GHB, legal in my country (but not in the US!). Increases levels of Oxytocin, GHB and probably GABA-B in the CNS. Potent anxiolytic and empathogen.

*50mg Baclofen / night:*

Extremely important! Never take GHB/GBL 24/7 or severe dependence and withdrawal will occur. Baclofen helps with that and you can sleep very well and resftul.

*50mg Cycloserine / day:*

May help to make the results permanent.

I take this from Monday-Friday. On weekends I take 2mg Klonopin / day instead of Baclofen and GBL to avoid tolerance and physical dependence.

This cocktail completely kills SA and depression. I've tried all Psychodrugs known to man (SSRIs/SNRIs, tricyclic and atypical ADs, MAOIs, Mood stabilizers, Neuroleptics, Alcohol, Benzos, Phenobarbital, Clomethiazole, Buprenorphine) but nothing works as effectively as this regimen.

What do you think?


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## kev

Wow, I've never even heard of most of that stuff. Is it all safe? I guess I would just worry about long term effects and the possibility of masking underlying problems. Otherwise whatever works I guess.

I don't think I would try it now. I think I'm on enough meds at the moment


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## Medline

Until now I have no safety problems at all ;-)


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## IllusionalFate

Screw that. If I had access to GBL, I'd convert it to GHB. From what I hear, it's basically the cure to SA.

Btw, have you tried either a nonbenzodiazepine or opioid?


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## Medline

I don't want to to synthesize scheduled drugs, GHB is also controlled in my country. But GBL is just a more potent varient of GHB and it's effects are not reduced by stomach content. I've tried zolpidem, zaleplon, Tramadol, Codeine, DHC, Buprenorphine to no avail.


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## KurtG85

And you are entirely functional on all those? If so, glad to hear it! Which med do you feel has the most significant positive effect on your SAD or depression or whatever issues you deal with (along with the rest of us)?


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## Medline

More functional than ever before in the last 10 years. For depression Moclobemide + Selegiline help a lot, for SAD GBL is most effective.


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## dss

Well glad you feel you have found something that works.

I would personally be worried dealing with GBL and just the overall combination of everything long term. I guess you have researched it all plenty and feel it's safe enough to do so hopefully that is the case.


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## KurtG85

Medline said:


> More functional than ever before in the last 10 years. For depression Moclobemide + Selegiline help a lot, for SAD GBL is most effective.


Great to hear. I have been wanting to try selegiline for a long time now. The only thing is, I believe I would have to come off adderall to give that a go and it would have to work pretty damn amazingly well to compete with how much adderall helps me. Still willing to give it a chance though. I have read about Moclobemide in the past but I forget what exactly that is, is it avaliable in the states?


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## Medline

It's a reversible and selecitive MAO-A inhibitor and not available in the US AFAIK. Unselective doses of Selegiline might work very well for SA, but I doubt it is as effective as Adderall.


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## shadowsandlight

Well, taking pills isn't a cure unless you remain permanently symptom-free once you stop all the meds. It is a means of symptom management. I would, personally, be a zombie on that much medication, and afraid of the potential for long-term damage (as they are not aware of what long-term effects newer psych drugs will have 10, 15, 20 years down the road). But that's just me.

If it works for you, you feel good, and able to live a satisfying life on this regimen, kudos to you. Always good to see someone with SA find something that works for him/her!


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## Medline

I take low dose cycloserine to receive permanent results, I don't want to be on meds forever. But I'm not feeling like a zombie, it's not like taking high dose Haldol. ;-)


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## X33

shadowsandlight said:


> Well, taking pills isn't a cure unless you remain permanently symptom-free once you stop all the meds. It is a means of symptom management. I would, personally, be a zombie on that much medication, and afraid of the potential for long-term damage (as they are not aware of what long-term effects newer psych drugs will have 10, 15, 20 years down the road). But that's just me.
> 
> If it works for you, you feel good, and able to live a satisfying life on this regimen, kudos to you. Always good to see someone with SA find something that works for him/her!


The cycloserine on that list can be used as a cure in combination with therapy. A preliminary study done showed that taking it before public speaking sessions reduces the number of sessions required to reduce public speaking anxiety from about 9 to 2. As Medline said, it trains the mind so that it can better unlearn fear. 
Also, I think it is commonly used as a TB antibiotic so it POSSIBLY has minimal side effects.

From wiki topic on cycloserine,

"It is also being trialed for treatment of phobias[2] as well as an adjuvant to conventional treatments for depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder and schizophrenia. It has been experimentally used for treatment of Gaucher's disease.

Recent research suggests that D-cycloserine may be effective in treating chronic pain.[3]
The side effects are mainly central nervous system (CNS) manifestations, i.e. headache, irritability, depression,psychosis convulsions. Co-administration of pyridoxine can reduce the incidence of some of the CNS side effects (e.g. convulsions).

These psychotropic responses are related to D-cycloserine's action as a partial agonist of the neuronal NMDA receptor for glutamate and have been examined in implications with sensory-related fear extinction in the amygdala"


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## Medline

The dose used for psychological reasons is just 50mg, 1/10 or 1/20 of the dose prescribed for tuberculosis.


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## X33

It seems like it is already in use here (US) for treatment of simple phobias such as fear of heights or fear of insects. The effects are supposed to occur rapidly. (within a week according to 1 study which can be seen in full here: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~k...tionofExtinction2005CurrDirPsycholScience.pdf). 
I am not sure of its use in social phobia, MGH is currently recruiting participants for a study on this,
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00633984?recr=open&cond="Phobic+Disorders"&rank=19


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## euphoria

Medline said:


> Low dose of the NMDA-antagonist Cycloserine may help to "hardwire" the results in the brain.


It's actually a partial NMDA agonist; the opposite to antagonists like ketamine.



> *2mg Selegiline / day:*
> 
> Works on Dopamine, but leaves enough Monoamine Oxidase so that Tyramine can be broken down and no special diet has to be followed.


I believe 10mg selegiline/day is officially still free of dietary restriction, and some people have gone further without incident. The actual limit probably depends on individual levels of MAO-A and MAO-B and other factors, but is likely between 10 and 20mg.

I took 10mg/day for several periods and felt great, but had to stop due to anxiety.



> *4 x 1.5ml of GBL / day:*
> 
> Non-toxic precursor for GHB, legal in my country (but not in the US!). Increases levels of Oxytocin, GHB and probably GABA-B in the CNS. Potent anxiolytic and empathogen.


GBL isn't entirely non-toxic. It can cause metabolic acidosis if used excessively (more than once a day perhaps), and would appear to deplete B vitamins rapidly. I noticed tingling sensations after heavy use, which is indicative of peripheral neuropathy (nerve damage). These feeling have mostly gone away now.

If you are dong so much G, I advise you to take B vitamins and multivitamins, and eat healthily. The obvious answer, though, is to CONVERT TO GHB! It is a LOT more forgiving than GBL and all you need is some sodium hydroxide, pH paper and a glass beaker.



> *50mg Baclofen / night:*
> 
> Extremely important! Never take GHB/GBL 24/7 or severe dependence and withdrawal will occur. Baclofen helps with that and you can sleep very well and resftul.


Cycling the two like this will protect you from the dopamine rebound of GBL, but both GBL and baclofen are GABA-B agonists so you are still probably in for withdrawal when you quit.

I'd imagine you get some cognitive impairment from this combo, but not as much as benzos.


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## Medline

If you inhibit MAO-A with Moclobemide then the 10-20mg rule for Selegiline doesn't apply. I knew this stuff about GBL, but when I was addicted to it I used up to 30ml / day, blood and urine tests always within normal limits, including blood PH. But now I "just" use 6ml / day. I don't feel mentally retarded, but Bush also felt OK and then he attacked the Iraq, so you never know. I don't think withdrawal will occur (because of the weekends off GABA-B agonists ) and even if, I do have clonazepam, baclofen (which can be tappered) and Propanolol.


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## euphoria

Medline said:


> If you inhibit MAO-A with Moclobemide then the 10-20mg rule for Selegiline doesn't apply.


Oops, I missed the moclobemide on your list.



> I knew this stuff about GBL, but when I was addicted to it I used up to 30ml / day, blood and urine tests always within normal limits, including blood PH.


That's pretty interesting. How did you become addicted when you knew about the dopamine rebound/psychotic withdrawal? I didn't find G particularly reinforcing or "moreish", but I guess everyone's different.



> I don't think withdrawal will occur (because of the weekends off GABA-B agonists ) and even if, I do have clonazepam, baclofen (which can be tappered) and Propanolol.


Looks like you've got it under control then. Cycling between GABA-A and B agonism probably prevents a lot of tolerance. I am considering doing the same when I can get hold of some clons, because nothing makes the weekend job go by faster than benzos.

If you're dabbling in GHB/GBL, you will definitely want to keep an antipsychotic on hand because if you go too long without a break the dopamine rebound can be quite nasty.



> You should add magnesium and niacin (or niacinamide) to your regiment for good measure =P


To throw in my $0.02, also add l-tryptophan, inositol and SAM-e.


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## Medline

I already take Magnesium Orotate which I consider the best form of Mag as orotic acid is a great cardioprotector. Inositol, b vitamins, good multi vitamin, EPA/DHA, NAC, R-ALA and some other stuff too.



> How did you become addicted when you knew about the dopamine rebound/psychotic withdrawal?


I was young and had no clue.  I read the article from Laborit which states GHB is not addictive, self-limiting and ordered it.



> If you're dabbling in GHB/GBL, you will definitely want to keep an antipsychotic on hand because if you go too long without a break the dopamine rebound can be quite nasty.


 I learned a lot about GHB withdrawal the hard tour. When I was severly addicted from using it 24/7 I tried Haldol + Lorazepam + Betablockers but it didn't help enough, I got paranoid after 24 hours without it: My alarm clock rang and I thougt "that's it, time has come, I have to die right now, they will get me". I didn't knew who they were, but I was dead sure they were after me. ;-) I ordered some Pheno and it killed all withdrawal, now I know a course of Baclofen tappering is the best and safest GHB detox.



> Cycling between GABA-A and B agonism probably prevents a lot of tolerance.


You can reduce alcohol or benzo withdrawal with Baclofen and vice versa, but it doesn't work 100% obviously. You could also alternate agents that "mess" with GABA-A via differnt mechanism eg. 3 weeks Klonopin, 1 week Pheno.



> To throw in my $0.02, also add l-tryptophan, inositol and SAM-e.


I'm a fan of SAM-e, but I don't want to combine a MAO-inhibitor with a serotonin precursor (tryptophan, 5-HTP) or an agent that increases 5-HT levels via another mechanism (SAMe). I have Cyproheptadine at hand (5-HT2A antagonist) but I don't want to gamble.

I optimized my regimen by the way:

From monday-friday I take:

1mg Clonazepam, 600mg Moclobemide, 1.5 mg liquid Deprenyl, 6ml GBL, 50mg Cycloserine and at night: 25mg Baclofen + 5mg Naltrexon - I don't want my opioid receptors to downgrade. This regimen hits Serotonin, Norepinephrine, Dopamine, GABA-A, GABA-B, the GHB receptor, Oxytocin, Beta-Endorphin and the NDMA receptor (as a partial agonist as we now know ;-))

On Saturday I substitute Benzo + GBL + Baclofen for 60mg Phenobarbital and take 25mg Naltrexon, on Sunday 30mg Pheno and 12.5mg Naltrexon. I thought about carefully adding low dose Ritalin and maybe an Oxytocin antagonist at night, but that would be too much. Especially Oxy antagonists I know nothing about toxicity, safety or if they are even available as tablets, lol.

Some people think it's stupid to take that many drugs, but I think it's stupid to live a unhappy, lonely life and being suicidal every day for the last 10 years. These meds turned me - an unhappy, pessimistic, depressive guy into a optimistic, confident person who cares about people and life in general I guess. I found 3 friends at university within one week, making it 5... lol and a beautiful girl goes out with me on Saturday. *proud*

I'm not afraid of "long term damage" as these drugs are not considered toxic, Selegiline significantly increases the life span of animals by inducing very potent antioxidant enzymes. I have no desire to drink alcohol - probably the GHB, it has shown in randomized, doubleblind, placebocontrolled trials to reduce alcohol consumption and I reduced my cigarette consumption from 30/day to 10/week, probably the MAOinhibitors. Being happily around people should increase or at least enhance life (experience), better than trinking beer alone in a dark room I guess.


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## metamorphosis

Wow guys!!Do you all major in Biochemistry,Psychopharamacology or what.Are there any websites,books,or publications you recommend in this field for I find it fascinating?It's important to know what these meds are doing to our bodies/minds instead of just blindly popping a pill the doctor prescribes foryou.Too many people don't take the time or care to know the neoroscience behind it.I find it quite important and interesting.What sources do you use Medline,Euphoria,X33,rocknroll,et al.?


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## Medline

Start with Psychotropical.com if you are interested in MAOIs, learn how to use Medline and interpret results correctly, the most buyed and best rated psychopharmacology books are classics you should read if you really want to learn this stuff. Then study medicine if you are serious. 

Dr Bob's board is the best source for many Pschopharmacolgical questions, especially about MAOIs. These guys really know there stuff.


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## metamorphosis

Medline,what are the names of the books you mention.I want to get an updated,indepth book on psychopharamacology?I'll check out Psychotropical.com and how do I access Dr. Bobs forum.


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## IllusionalFate

metamorphosis said:


> Medline,what are the names of the books you mention.I want to get an updated,indepth book on psychopharamacology?I'll check out Psychotropical.com and how do I access Dr. Bobs forum.


http://www.dr-bob.org/


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## Medline

You need the Psychobabble: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/

Psychopharmacology: Drugs, the Brain and Behavior 
Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology
Clinical Psychopharmacology Made Ridiculously Simple 
Handbook of Psychiatric Drugs, 2008 Edition


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## StPatrick317

Thats awesome. No point in judging you at all, you did the work to find something that helped you and you deserve it.

Do you think the GBL is doing most of the work? I just read the wikipedia article on Baclofen, how is it different from GHB/GBL? 

Also, do you know the effects of these drugs individually, for you? A way of phrasing this would be, "How did Moclobemide help you alone" or "How did Selegeline feel by itself" etc. Basically, a little autobiography of you came up with this thing! Great work

EDIT: I see you got the same thing up on the Psycho Babble site, will have to read it but those threads are damn long!


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## Drew

How long have you been on this combination?


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## Medline

Thanks! I do think GBL helps me the most for SA, but I am sure a combo of an irreversible MAO-inhibitor with just a potent benzodiazepine like clonazepam would help many people too, just not to that extent in regard to socializing. Nardil alone is good enough IMHO as it increases brain GABA levels. Adderall XR + Klonopin like Noca uses it, must be pretty awesome, Amphetamine can't be prescribed in my country.

I have tried Moclobemide alone in doses up to 900mg, it didn't to much, you have to hit Dopamine too IMHO. Creating a safe MAOI by combining Moclobemide with low dose Selegiline is an option, don't expect it to be 100% as strong as Parnate especially if you are deeply (anergic) depressive.

I've used GBL alone some years ago, later 24/7 that's a dead end and very dangerous. Baclofen is just a plain GABA-B-Agonist it is used mainly as a spasmolytic, but has some anxiolytic properties too. It feels nothing like GBL/GHB, but it's great for withdrawals and to keep tolerance down. For spasticity up to 300mg oral are prescribed, I just take 25-50mg.

I took Selegiline alone at MAO-B selective doses, great for energy, motivation and libido, increases positive GHB effects. Dopamine rebound is stronger, but no problem with low dose clonazepam & baclofen. If someone is just using Selegiline + GHB/GBL he is in for major trouble aka addiction and withdrawal. You have to know these substances pretty good. Selegiline alone is used in doses up to 20-30mg, I take 1.5-2.5.

Cycloserine is a partial NDMA-agonist and may help with extinction of fears, seems to make the process much faster. For tuperulosis up to 500-1000mg are prescribed, I take 50mg. It has no anxiolytic action.

Naltrexone is an opiod antagonist used mainly in the treatment of alcohol dependence in doses of 50mg. I take 5mg at night ("low dose naltrexone") to keep the opioid receptors from downgrading.

Clonazepam is an antiepileptic and potent anxiolytic prescribed in doses of up to 4-6mg, sometimes higher, I take 1mg to offset the dopamine rebound and increase the time between the GBL doses.

This regimen is new in that form, I gave up Parnate because of side effects, but mainly used GBL instead of Klonopin for weeks, adapted the naltrexone dose. I prefer Moclobemide + low dose Selegiline now over classical MAOIs. Nevertheless time has to prove that it is a potent long-term solution for me.


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## IllusionalFate

Medline said:


> ... but I am sure a combo of an irreversible MAO-inhibitor with just a potent benzodiazepine like clonazepam would help many people too, just not to that extent in regard to socializing.


Do you know of any irreversible MAOIs that I could take PRN in combination with my clonazepam? I know very little about MAOIs, so I'm not sure if they're fast acting or if a dosing regiment is required to build blood levels to an efficacious quantity.


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## Medline

MAOIs are not used prn, they are long-term meds. Adderal XR would be OK.


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## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

This is great medline! Awesome work on finding this combo and actually doing the study to come up with it. Regular updates on how your doing would be good, and also if you could report any changes you make in your combo that would be great..

I currently take 75mg nardil with a 0.25mg xanax every now and then. Its pretty good, keeps a fair bit of my depression in check, but my SA is still fairly out of control.

good luck


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## crossfadex

whats the difference between an irreversible maoi and a reversible one? And I've heard the side effects of drugs like nardil/parnate go away over time.


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## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

Ill let some one else answer that in more technical terms, all I can say though is the moclobemide (reversible MAOI) on its own did not work for me at all even at very high doses. Nardil on its own on the other hand (irreversible, and works on dopamine and gaba as well as the other monoamines) has worked pretty dam better than anything I've taken in the past


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## Medline

I will modify my regimen soon and substitute Moclobemide with Escitalopram. It has more proven efficiency, is potent, fast-acting and has very low interaction potential. I don't think that the Norepinephrine the Moclobemide provides is very important for SA, I think it's more a Serotonin, Dopamine, GABA story (and probably Oxytocin, Endorphins...).

2 x Escitalopram 10mg
1 x low dose Selegiline 2.5-5mg twice per week
4 x Gamma-Butyro-Lactone 1.5ml
1 x low dose Cycloserine 50mg (taken for 2-4 months)

At night:

1 x low dose Baclofen 25mg
1 x low dose Naltrexone 5mg (to avoid opioid receptor downgrade) 

On weekends: 2mg Clonazepam instead of GBL & Baclofen. Higher dose of Naltrexone (25mg on saturday) and 12.5mg on Sunday.


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## Medline

I will look at this interesting regimen later. Sounds like you want to create "Soma" from New Brave World. ;-)

It will be hard to put it into practice tough. MAOIs can do part of that stuff. You may look in the substance Agomelatine, it can probably act synergistically with Bupropion and SSRIs.


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## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

hey medline and others, just wondering how readily available this stuff is over the internet. I know that GBL is illegal where I live unfortunately so thats out (which as I understand it is a huge part of the regime), can it be substituted with anything else?


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## Medline

@rocknroll: Very interesting ideas! Why do you want a 5HT2A-antagonist by the way? What is it supposed to do? I mean I do have Cyproheptadine at hand, but it was just a backup plan for the case of beginning serotonin syndrome.



> - JDTic: kappa-Opioid full antagonism, extremely, extremely nice substance.


Never heard of it, looks great. I had to think of Buprenorphine when I read that. Unluckily Bupe hasn't done anything for me, even at intoxicating doses. :-(

I knew that low dose Ketamine is supposed to be great for trd. I have looked into Alpidem a long time ago, but forget about it when I read is was hepatoxic. Bretazenil & Pagoclone I read much about, but never could find a source for. I will study these 5HT1A-agents. Oxytocin-agonists I was so interested in, read everything about them, but could find a source for intranasal Oxytocin only, but never ever Carbetocin. Oxytocin has such a short half-life I gave up the idea. Intranasal Carbetocin is being studied for autism. I hope so much it can be used off-label then for SAD . But GBL/GHB is supposed to work on Oxytocin also, so I guess it can wait.

Amineptine was such a cool AD, but the FDA wants people with depression to be less unhappy, not happy actually. I read a little bit about Muscimol by the way, but it seems to be pretty useless and toxic. Phenibut is probably a cool substance, Picamilon I tried years ago - nice. MBDB I will look in.

Good work!

@Jimminy: It is readily available online, but if its illegal in your country then forget about it. I thought it was still not a controlled substance in most countries as it is a widely used chemical in industry. There is no real substitute I know of. Phenibut maybe?


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## Medline

I've tried Zofran as an anti-craving substance, altough I didn't expect a calming effect, it felt quite... well... calming ;-). But probably just for people with alcohol problematic and anxiety. Amineptine is probably great, especially with 50mg Amisulpride to further enhance dopaminergic neurotransmission. Nomifensine is just too toxic, withdrawing it from the market was a good decission.


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## Medline

Amisulpride seems to bind to the GHB receptor... quite interesting.


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## euphoria

> I'm a fan of SAM-e, but I don't want to combine a MAO-inhibitor with a serotonin precursor (tryptophan, 5-HTP) or an agent that increases 5-HT levels via another mechanism (SAMe). I have Cyproheptadine at hand (5-HT2A antagonist) but I don't want to gamble.


These combinations are very dangerous, but when dose is titrated extremely carefully, you can achieve a potent effect on serotonin. Combining low dose MAOI and SSRI could probably be an effective solution for anxiety without severe side-effects.



> Wow guys!!Do you all major in Biochemistry,Psychopharamacology or what.Are there any websites,books,or publications you recommend in this field for I find it fascinating?It's important to know what these meds are doing to our bodies/minds instead of just blindly popping a pill the doctor prescribes foryou.Too many people don't take the time or care to know the neoroscience behind it.I find it quite important and interesting.What sources do you use Medline,Euphoria,X33,rocknroll,et al.?


I'm just a 17 year old with way too much free time, and an obsession with mood-enhancement. My main sources were Wikipedia, Erowid, my own college studies and various online forums dealing in these matters.



> I knew that low dose Ketamine is supposed to be great for trd.


Ketamine is great for a lot of things . Unfortunately, sanity is not one of them.



> Amisulpride seems to bind to the GHB receptor... quite interesting.


I was interested too, but amisulpride has been associated with developing facial tics (tardive dyskinesia) even at <50mg doses when used with SSRIs. This may also apply to MAOIs, I am not sure. A reliable source commented that amisulpride seemed to have an "anti-dopamine" feel even at low doses. YMMV.

I've read reports that selegiline low dose combined with DL-phenylalanine or tyrosine can cause meth-like euphoria. Of course this is dangerous, but demonstrates the synergy I talked about earlier.


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## Medline

One may carefully combine an SSRI with Moclobemide (I'm not a fan of this), but the combination SSRI + MAOI (Parnate, Nardil) is just too dangerous, I would not recommend it to anybody.

I don't think that the combo low-dose selegiline + (DL)-Phenylalanine or tyrosine is so dangerous. If low entry doses are used and titration is slowly I think it's ok to try. You may want to have a Benzo at hand. I don't think it will like feel meth, releasing large amounts of DA is probably much more enjoyable than slowing down it's breakdown and increasing the rate at which it can be produced. But I've never tried, so who knows.

Yeah, Amisulpride can cause tardive dyskinesia also at very low doses at which it causes increased dopaminergic neurotransmission. A little bit paradoxical.

I don't think that MAOIs cause tardive dyskinesia by the way.


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## euphoria

Very dangerous indeed, but if you get the smallest strength pills and titrate up milligram by milligram, you could achieve the desired serotonin effect.

(Edited my previous post by the way.)


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## Medline

I thougt about combining Moclobemide + an SSRI after I read some promising studies, but one of the leading experts on serotonin syndrome (Dr. Ken Gillmann) thinks it's risky. "Real" MAOIs + SSRI I am not at all comfortable with. Serotonin syndrome could develop slowly over weeks and hit you when you don't expect it.

If you want to try it, which I do not recommend, you should have cyproheptadine at hand + benzos.


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## euphoria

Medline said:


> I thougt about combining Moclobemide + an SSRI after I read some promising studies, but one of the leading experts on serotonin syndrome (Dr. Ken Gillmann) thinks it's risky. "Real" MAOIs + SSRI I am not at all comfortable with. Serotonin syndrome could develop slowly over weeks and hit you when you don't expect it.
> 
> If you want to try it, which I do not recommend, you should have cyproheptadine at hand + benzos.


Yeah I plan to if my current SSRI doesn't work out (likely), but only with moclobemide. I'm trying as best I can to avoid the irreversible ones.

If I do, I will certainly have a stockpile of bennies and cyproheptadine on hand. Possibly some antihypertensive agents too. Unfortunately I won't when I add SAMe and inositol to escitalopram, but I will go up slowly.


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## Medline

Good luck. You have to start with the SSRI and then slowly add the RIMA, not the other way! Slowly titrating up both at the same time is possible too.


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## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

Ive actually got some phenibut on hand but not sure whether it does much for me. Tried it with nardil and it worked a bit better than by itself. With 0.25mg xanax it works a bit better too. What about picamilon or other smart drugs?

Is there anything else you guys can suggest that I can add to nardil to enhance its effects. I'm currently on 75mg a day. Already tried tyrosine, not sure what that did, other than that the meds and supps I have in stock include: tyrosine, glutamine, alpha gpc, cdp-choline, b vitamins, multi vit, niacinamide, taurine, magnesium orotate, rhidiola rosea, various antibiotics, reboxetine, moclobemide, effexor, lexapro, abilify, various other anti-phsycotics.


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## Medline

Maybe the Phenibut dose was too low, how much did you take? Picamilon sounds like a great idea, I really liked it's calming effect. You can combine the Nardil with these acetylcholine precursors, but don't expect a synergistic effect. I wouldn't take rhodolia. SSRIs/SNRIs, Moclobemide etc. are contraindicated, Antipsychotics I would just take if I had psychosis... The supplements look great for general health purposes, but you have to double-check other supps, especially herbs, if they have any effect on neurotransmitter levels (eg. SAMe, resveratrol...). The various antibiotics won't help probably, low dose cycloserine could be very useful, but I doubt you have it. A metabolite of Phenelzine reduces brain glutamine levels, but I'm not sure that means you have to supplement it. Try a higher Xanax dose, 0.25mg is pretty low.


----------



## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

thanks medline. Might havta order some more picamilon again, It worked great for me when I took it by itself a while back but then just stopped after about 2 months. Maybe it might work better with nardil.. Ill try a higer dose of phenibut and see how I go, only really been taking it in smaller doses. Also might go up to 0.5mg of xanax, dont wanna get addicted though..

Just wondering about niacinamide though, at higher doses its meant to work on the same receptors as benzos is it not? Does that mean it would work in synergy with nardil/xanax/phenibut ? I also might try mag orotate and see how that fits into the equation.


----------



## euphoria

Jimminy_Billy_Bob said:


> Just wondering about niacinamide though, at higher doses its meant to work on the same receptors as benzos is it not? Does that mean it would work in synergy with nardil/xanax/phenibut ? I also might try mag orotate and see how that fits into the equation.


Research seems contradictory on this, but I read that its effects are achieved through other means than directly binding with benzo receptors. I haven't heard any reports of addiction/withdrawal so it has potential, but wouldn't yet assume it doesn't form tolerance.


----------



## Medline

Just go for the Picamilon, it might act synergistically with your Nardil.


----------



## bezoomny

Congrats Medline!

I hope you stay on the site, though. With Noca being banned every few weeks it's nice to have multiple go-to medicine encyclopedias.


----------



## Medline

I will stay on this site, want to help other people.  OT: could anybody tell me in just 1-2 sentence why Noca has been banned? 

@rocknroll: I will look in those substances and comment my thoughts then.


----------



## X33

Jimminy_Billy_Bob said:


> thanks medline. Might havta order some more picamilon again, It worked great for me when I took it by itself a while back but then just stopped after about 2 months. Maybe it might work better with nardil.. Ill try a higer dose of phenibut and see how I go, only really been taking it in smaller doses. Also might go up to 0.5mg of xanax, dont wanna get addicted though..
> 
> Just wondering about niacinamide though, at higher doses its meant to work on the same receptors as benzos is it not? Does that mean it would work in synergy with nardil/xanax/phenibut ? I also might try mag orotate and see how that fits into the equation.


You got to be careful with niacinamide though. RDA for Vit. B3 is 10 to 20mg. Doses recommended for anxiety treatment are in the hundreds to even thousands of mg. At these doses, long term use can cause liver damage.

Also, a question about Xanax and addiction - by addiction do you mean that you don't want to reach a stage where you become dependent on (normal dose of) Xanax? Or are you concerned about escalating dose requirements due to tolerance ultimately resulting in loss of efficacy of Xanax within normal dose range?

Because if it is the first, then (imo) it is not a bad thing. All you would have to do is take Xanax long term, atleast till a better solution to anxiety is found. Anxiety is a chronic condition. You have to take meds long term for it anyway. Is a hypertensive person addicted to blood pressure pills? I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant by not wanting to develop an addiction.


----------



## xboxfreak

X33 said:


> You got to be careful with niacinamide though. RDA for Vit. B3 is 10 to 20mg. Doses recommended for anxiety treatment are in the hundreds to even thousands of mg. At these doses, long term use can cause liver damage.


I hardly put any faith in RDA. It is outdated science and most values need to be upped quite a bit. But I would certainly be careful taking too much Niacinamide as I have read it can be bad for your liver. I was on a very very high dose (4.5g a day) for a while (can't really remember maybe a few months) but since I heard about possible liver problems I no longer take it. It didn't really do anything for my anxiety anyway.

Congrats Medline on finding stuff that works for you!

MBDB sounds interesting especially if it is legal in the U.S. (??). I am reading on Erowid about it now. I think it may be bad for me to take it though as I am on Celexa an SSRI. Anyone care to comment about MBDB use while using an SSRI?


----------



## Medline

MBDB is really interesting, I have to read more about it.


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## Medline

I read more about it and about bk-MBDB & MDPV. Really interesting stuff! But it most likely can just be taken prn. Not much is known about toxicity and abuse potential is probably as high as that of Meth.


----------



## euphoria

X33 said:


> You got to be careful with niacinamide though. RDA for Vit. B3 is 10 to 20mg. Doses recommended for anxiety treatment are in the hundreds to even thousands of mg. At these doses, long term use can cause liver damage.


Liver problems are thought to occur upwards of the 2-3g mark.



> Also, a question about Xanax and addiction - by addiction do you mean that you don't want to reach a stage where you become dependent on (normal dose of) Xanax? Or are you concerned about escalating dose requirements due to tolerance ultimately resulting in loss of efficacy of Xanax within normal dose range?


Both.


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## Medline

Desoxypipradrol is also a very interesting substance. Legal, one of the strongest stimulants of the world, low toxicity, very long half-life and duration of action. It's sick that you can order stuff stronger than Meth online without problems... lol


----------



## euphoria

You always seem to be dropping names of awesome substances! Keep 'em coming!

Combined with an adrenolytic drug it would be pretty cool I think, perhaps an anti-ADHD drug without the daily crash (if you took dopamine antagonists to sleep or something).

Seems readily available online too from the trade sites.


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## Medline

Yep, getting it is no problem. But one has to be really careful if he decides to try it, this is potent stuff. Combined with Escitalopram, Clonazepam and maybe the alpha-, beta-blocker Carvedilol this would rule...


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## euphoria

I was thinking of ordering some carvedilol actually. Would you say $19 for 30 x 25mg is an acceptable price?


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## Medline

Yep, it's generic, good price. One of it's metabolites acts as a very potent antioxidant by the way.


----------



## nikki32

Medline said:


> Yep, getting it is no problem. But one has to be really careful if he decides to try it, this is potent stuff. Combined with Escitalopram, Clonazepam and maybe the alpha-, beta-blocker Carvedilol this would rule...


where do you get all of these?


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## Medline

I haven't tried that cocktail yet, but the stuff is pretty easy to get. I won't name any sources, sorry.


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## euphoria

> where do you get all of these?


The internet.


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## X33

Any updates? Are you noticing anything from the cycloserine?


----------



## Medline

I feel great, no problems like tolerance... until yet  You can't feel the low dose cycloserine working, it has no anxiolytic or acute effect. When I'm off the meds in some month and the anxiety doesn't return then it probably helped me.


----------



## nikki32

Medline said:


> I feel great, no problems like tolerance... until yet  You can't feel the low dose cycloserine working, it has no anxiolytic or acute effect. When I'm off the meds in some month and the anxiety doesn't return then it probably helped me.


as for the desoxypipradrol......are there any long term side effects? I have extremely low energy during the day so i need something to keep me up. I'm on anti-depressants so im not sure if thats whats making me tired.


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## Medline

This is a research chemical! I don't recommend taking it, but I would take it myself... lol. You may try Bupropion or Modafinil.


----------



## nikki32

Medline said:


> This is a research chemical! I don't recommend taking it, but I would take it myself... lol. You may try Bupropion or Modafinil.


I have tried research chemicals before. My only problem is that i dont have insurance i only have insurance through a certain hospital and i doubt they would give me Modafinil. I have tried adderol and liked it. It took away my social anxiety and gave me energy. My doctor wont put me on it. I told him that i have no energy during the dasy and he told me too exercise. I tried that and still no energy. I need a cheap solution so i have energy during the day.


----------



## Jrock

rocknroll714 said:


> Aripiprazole (abilify) doesn't seem quite as demented as the others either.


I've seen the commericals, what exactly is abilify suppose to do


----------



## Noca

Jrock said:


> I've seen the commericals, what exactly is abilify suppose to do


empty your wallet


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## Jrock

Noca said:


> empty your wallet


Noca I think I already did..........


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## euphoria

nikki32 said:


> as for the desoxypipradrol......are there any long term side effects? I have extremely low energy during the day so i need something to keep me up. I'm on anti-depressants so im not sure if thats whats making me tired.


It's pretty obscure even on the internet and definitely will not be prescribed. Also, it would be a waste of time unless you have plenty of antipsychotics or sleeping pills, as it lasts 24+ hours and you won't sleep.


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## Medline

Effects of a drug depend on dose. And yes, I do have Haloperidol, Lorazepam and combined alpha-, beta-blockers to be on the safe side.


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## Medline

Update: I now changed my regimen: Lexapro + low dose Selegiline + low dose Cycloserine + GBL, One Lioresal-pill (Baclofen) at night. I've ordered some Desoxy... lol, I'm getting extreme... was born so to be exactly.


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## euphoria

Did you order it from an expensive RC vendor, or bulk supplier?


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## Medline

Expensive RC supplier, AFAIK it's pretty hard to order from bulk suppliers when you are not from a company or university involed in chemicals? Or am I wrong?


----------



## euphoria

That's true for the 100% legit ones, yes. However, a lot of people on trade sites really don't care, though you run the risk of getting scammed.

Let us know how the desoxy goes man.


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## Medline

Thanks for the info! Sites that also sell Morphine and Anthrax are probably not the ones that will sell me some desoxy, but I'll look into that.


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## metamorphosis

Medline said:


> Update: I now changed my regimen: Lexapro + low dose Selegiline + low dose Cycloserine + GBL, One Lioresal-pill (Baclofen) at night. I've ordered some Desoxy... lol, I'm getting extreme... was born so to be exactly.


I know you like the MAOI Parnate,so why did you choose Lexapro and at what dosse?What dose is the Selegline at?I assume tt's not the patch.How does the GBL and Baclofen augment the mxture?Do you suffer any side effects from Lexapro (weightgain,sexual dysfunction) and why this ssri over the other ssri's or ssnri's or wellbutrin?How long did it take to come up with this combo/how long jwith SAD?And finally what are the effects/ratios on the different neurotransmitters(GABA,Serotonin,Dopamine,Neuroepinephrine(sp))acetyl-Choline?How does it target these synergistically?I have morrs questions but this is enough for know.Off to work!


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## Medline

I hated the diet restrictions and want the ADs to be out of my system fast if necessary. I take 2.5mg Selegiline (half a tablet of the generic version). It's a great GHB/GBL euphoria booster. GBL is one of the most potent socializers available. Baclofen helps with the dopamine rebound so I don't get addicted. I consider Sertraline and Escitalopram the best SSRIs, I don't get any side effects or discontinuation syndrome from it. It took about 5 years for me to find this combo, but I consider changing to to 5mg Desoxypipradrol + 20mg Escitalopram + 2mg Clonazepam as needed as I dislike the short half-life of GBL/GHB. This new regimen would hit 5-HT, NE, DA and GABA-A very hard.


----------



## Jrock

Medline said:


> I hated the diet restrictions and want the ADs to be out of my system fast if necessary. I take 2.5mg Selegiline (half a tablet of the generic version). It's a great GHB/GBL euphoria booster. GBL is one of the most potent socializers available. Baclofen helps with the dopamine rebound so I don't get addicted. I consider Sertraline and Escitalopram the best SSRIs, I don't get any side effects or discontinuation syndrome from it. It took about 5 years for me to find this combo, but I consider changing to to 5mg Desoxypipradrol + 20mg Escitalopram + 2mg Clonazepam as needed as I dislike the short half-life of GBL/GHB. This new regimen would hit 5-HT, NE, DA and GABA-A very hard.


Interesting post Medline, I'm a little late aboard. Can you elaborate a little more on this.....maybe in english  How do you take it? Does it help you SA? Is it taken everyday or as needed?


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## metamorphosis

Medline said:


> I hated the diet restrictions and want the ADs to be out of my system fast if necessary. I take 2.5mg Selegiline (half a tablet of the generic version). It's a great GHB/GBL euphoria booster. GBL is one of the most potent socializers available. Baclofen helps with the dopamine rebound so I don't get addicted. I consider Sertraline and Escitalopram the best SSRIs, I don't get any side effects or discontinuation syndrome from it. It took about 5 years for me to find this combo, but I consider changing to to 5mg Desoxypipradrol + 20mg Escitalopram + 2mg Clonazepam as needed as I dislike the short half-life of GBL/GHB. This new regimen would hit 5-HT, NE, DA and GABA-A very hard.


What exactly is GBL?How does it work?Is it prescreibed in the states(legal)?I am thinking of trying Parnate augmented with a medication for sleep prn.You have mentoined Lyrica.I forgot what it was originally used for.I know it has been used to treat fibromyalgia and is now being used for anxiety.I tried a 50mg capsule before work and it just clouded me over.What is the typical dose used for sleep?Do you know its mechanisms of action?It seems like baclofen would be a pretty weak sleeping pill.How do you feel about Gabapentin for sleep and anxiety in general?I am just wondering what choices are out there if I get agitation from Parnate as some do. still take 2-3mg klonopin per day.How do Parnate and Nardil differ in their effects on GABA?Their in the same class but seem to effect people so differently.Too many questions I know.But I want a clear plan when I see the doctor this month and you have a great wealth of knowledge on psychopharamacology.


----------



## Medline

GBL is a precursor to GHB, it can not be prescribed and you won't get GHB if you don't have Narcolepsy - sorry. Lyrica (Pregabalin) is a more potent form of Gabapentin (Neurontin), it has shown efficieny for GAD and SAD (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15707506). It has a complex mechanism of action, but GABA is not involed, look it up on Wikipedia if you want to know what it does exactly. It can be used offlabel for sleep, 100-200mg would probably do the trick. I don't recommend Baclofen (Lioresal) in general, but it's the perfect solution for people using GHB/GBL. A metabolite of Phenelzine (Nardil) acts as a GABA-transaminase inhibitor, therefor raising brain GABA levels, Parnate does not, but it has a better side effect profile.



> But I want a clear plan when I see the doctor this month and you have a great wealth of knowledge on psychopharamacology.


Thanks.


----------



## metamorphosis

So to try to pin this down.Parnate has no action at all on GABA and wouldn't this maen that it would not really help GA/SAD very effectivley?Or are it's effects on other neureotransmitters helpful in this regard?What are its methods of action?I like it's side effects profile much more so than Nardil but is Parnate alone able to signifigantly decrease SAD and is it's stimulating quality due to it's effects on NP or sertonin?If serotonin why not the high sexual side effects?While I'm at it what's it's effects on Dopamine?
Done
I really need to invest in a good,updated, introductory book on psychopharamacology


----------



## Medline

Long-term use of Parnate leads to upregulation of GABA-B receptors, but it has no direct action on GABA. Nevertheless it can work great for SA, cocaine is also not a GABA-drug and altough I don't recommend it as a treatment it does work for some time.  Parnate elevates levels of Serotonin, Norepinephrine and Dopamine, it also causes an increase of Phenylethylamine and Melatonin levels and does some other stuff that is poorly understood. It can perfectly be augmented with GABAergic drugs, eg. Benzos as needed. As MAOIs increase Serotonin AND Dopamine levels they probably have less sexual side effects. If you combine eg. an SSRI with an norepinephrine and dopamine reuptake inhibitor like Bupropion you also have less anorgasmia and decreased libido. As Parnate and Nardil are not just MAO-A inhibitors like Moclobemide but also potent MAO-B inhibitors they increase Dopamine levels.

Handbook of Clinical Psychopharmacology for Therapists and Clinical Psychopharmacology Made Ridiculously Simple are great books and don't cost much. If you really want to learn about MAOIs, go to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/ and ask Philpa, SLS and the other guys. They know more about Nardil & Parnate then is written in books and some have decade-long! experience with MAOIs


----------



## metamorphosis

As always,thanks.


----------



## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

Hey medline, nice to see that your continual experiments on yourself are still working out well for you. 

Just a few questions for you or anyone else who has the time to listen. What is your opinion of nootropics? Piracetam and the other racetems? I understand you need to take them with acetylcholine precursors like cdp choline or alpha gpc (both which I have tried since being on nardil and which do help concentration and organization) 

Picamilon worked for me once but doesnt seem to do much for me now, even with nardil. Phenibut does nothing really even at high doses. Niacinamide nothing. Xanax was giving me really bad acne for some reason, just like all other benzo's do, so I had to stop it. 

I'm still looking for something augment my nardil to ease my SA and make me more prosocial, good with eye contact etc. Nardil has been awesome for depression but its effects on SA have faded a fair bit. I have heard adderall or other stims can help this, and I am game enough to try them with nardil. And then there's always the possibility of switching to parnate but I want to give the nardil more of a chance.

any ideas?


----------



## Medline

I'm not sure Piracetam and the others will help in combination with acetylcholine precursors, but you would be smart as hell.  I think you should try Phenibut. That Benzos give you acne is pretty weird. Some people on Psychobabble combine stimulants like Adderall with MAOIs, but mainly because their depression is so bad, when it's about life or death then one can try it - very carefully with slow entry doses, slowly increasing the dose over time. I wouldn't do it for anxiety, Klonopin would be perfect. Have you thought about ultra-low dose doxycycline? But then again it's not a good idea to take meds to counter the side effects of other drugs. If Nardil works very well for your depression then you shouldn't switch to Parnate, Nardil is probably a little bit more anxiolytic because of it's action on GABA anyhow.


----------



## IllusionalFate

Wouldn't the release of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine caused by amphetamines make that class contraindicated with MAOIs? Since MAOIs already escalate the levels of all three of these monoamine neurotransmitters, it seems the flood of serotonin in the synapses could lead to an increased risk of serotonin syndrome.


----------



## Medline

Amphetamine is a weak serotonergic agent, serotonin syndrome won't happen. People use the MAOI + Ampetamine combo, but they have to be careful and start with a low dose as hypertensive reactions could occur.


----------



## IllusionalFate

Medline said:


> Amphetamine is a weak serotonergic agent, serotonin syndrome won't happen. People use the MAOI + Ampetamine combo, but they have to be careful and start with a low dose as hypertensive reactions could occur.


Which monoamine neurotransmitters in excessive amounts due to the use of this combo increase the risk of hypertensive reactions? Or do Nardil/Parnate by themselves increase blood pressure, in turn increasing the cardiovascular risks when combining another substance that also produces cardiovascular stress?


----------



## Medline

MAOIs are hypotensive agents, they lower blood pressure. Just when too much tyramine has been consumed, a hypertensive crisis can occur. Both Amphetamine and MAOIs increase levels of NE & DA via different mechanisms, which can be too much causing blood pressure spikes. But some people use this combo without any problems.

*In this thread questions about MAOIs and psychopharmacology in general can be asked. I will answer them to the best of my knowledge.* Feedback always welcome, help by other people too.


----------



## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

Thanks for ur reply medline as always . I'm still keen on the idea of an amphetamine with nardil, and as you said I will just take it very slow. So far I have had nothing close to a hypertensive reaction even when taking large amounts of tyrosine, caffiene, chocolate, alcohol and all the other tyramine filled nasties. So I figure maybe a stim like adderall might be alright. As for phenibut I am suspicious that it might give me acne also (anything that works largely on gaba seems to do this) but I'll take a fairly large amount today and see how I go.

Energy drinks with caffiene and caffiene pills seem to help my sociability as well, although they can make me a bit jittery. Some people find parnate more anxiety reducing then nardil, maybe because it works on dopamine a bit more than nardil? I may be wrong though.. When you suggested doxy, was that purely for acne? Or does it have other functions?

Also has anyone else here had experience with nootropics?

Cheers


----------



## Medline

Just for Acne. If you can get Amphetamine you can of course try the combo, no problem if you are careful.


----------



## Futurebeats

I registered here after finding this thread, I'm fascinated by how many people have been learning neurochemisty to cure their social anxiety - I thought I was the only one 

I've noticed people talking of dopamine rebound as the main reason for GBL withdrawal, I thought this was just caused by the key gaba-b downregulation and glutamate upregulation. 

Since the systems are associated and there doesn't seem to be an explanation for the mechanism of dopamine rebound (or have i missed it?)
I think the main effects of withdrawal are caused by glutamate excitoxicity due to upregulation of receptors (would still explain why baclofen helps too)

A word of caution with GBL, when I went through a bad phase of excessively taking it 24/7, after 2 weeks use my kidneys started to bloat and my pee would be dark even after 2 liters of water. I think that was the first signs of metabolic acidosis and I stopped straight away. 
Might be worth supplementing bicarb with it, I've got no idea how much though.

medline: I'm thinking of trying a GBL, Baclofen and Cycloserine regimen, i'm scared of the withdrawals caused by chronic gaba-b downregulation. I noticed you mentioned parnate could cause gaba-b upregulation after long use, could that help? could you use a small dose and not stick to the maoi diet or is there anything else you would suggest?

And another question (sorry ): 
How do you manage the 4 doses of GBL a day, do you carry a little dropper bottle around with you?


----------



## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

I take it most of you people are from USA? In Australia the drugs you are talking about are all controlled and illegal to import unless you have a permit and you have to follow strict guidelines making it almost impossible, escpecially GBL.

I've been looking at other supplements though and chocamine looks interesting, its a stimulant with actions similiar to caffiene but people report it improves their mood and anxiety. Anyone used it or heard of it?


----------



## Medline

@Futurebeats: Nice to have you on the board. 



> I've noticed people talking of dopamine rebound as the main reason for GBL withdrawal, I thought this was just caused by the key gaba-b downregulation and glutamate upregulation.


Some may say that the dopamine rebound isn't real and that it's all about downregulation, but it occurs after just 2-3 doses GHB/GBL and 1-2mg Haldol (pure dopamine-antagonist) stop it (at least for me). These systems can't be downregulated that fast. Baclofen "hits" the GABA-B system harder than GHB/GBL, but to get physically dependent takes some time.



> Since the systems are associated and there doesn't seem to be an explanation for the mechanism of dopamine rebound (or have i missed it?)
> I think the main effects of withdrawal are caused by glutamate excitoxicity due to upregulation of receptors (would still explain why baclofen helps too)


I had this theory too some years ago, but Acamprosate and Topiramate did very few for withdrawals. I've never tried Amantadine though. But then again: Why would the GABA/Glutamate system be "messed up" after just 2-3 doses of GHB/GBL? High dose alcohol and even fast acting barbiturates like Seconal can NOT do this. And if you've ever seen a drunk or read reports about barbiturate abusers than you know these are very strong chemicals. 



> medline: I'm thinking of trying a GBL, Baclofen and Cycloserine regimen, i'm scared of the withdrawals caused by chronic gaba-b downregulation. I noticed you mentioned parnate could cause gaba-b upregulation after long use, could that help? could you use a small dose and not stick to the maoi diet or is there anything else you would suggest?


You can not use a small dose of an MAOI and eat what you want, it's potent stuff that irreversibly inhibits MAO function. And I don't know if this GABA-B upregulation would help you in reality, especially if the parnate dose is low. People with spastics take up to 300mg/day of oral Baclofen and it takes weeks-months for them to develop physical dependence. I don't think that the GABA/Glutamate theory alone is all about GHB/GBL withdrawal.



> And another question (sorry ):
> How do you manage the 4 doses of GBL a day, do you carry a little dropper bottle around with you?


That sucks, I have to carry orange juice bottles with GBL in my backpack and never ever give it to anyone. But I don't want to synthesize scheduled GHB powder and cap it.

@Jimminy: I'm from Europe, GBL is perfectly legal in my country. I wouldn't order GBL to the US or Australia.


----------



## Futurebeats

Thanks for the reply. 
To be honest your testing on the glutamate/dopamine withdrawal theories is better than the study I based mine on.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/jnc/2003/00000087/00000003/art00017


----------



## Medline

I made regular breaks from GBL + Baclofen on weekends using Klonopin. But I don't think it's a very practicable regimen in the long term as half-life and duration of action of GBL/GHB is so short and I don't really want to drink that much orange juice.  I now take 5mg Desoxypipradrol + 20mg Escitalopram + 2mg Clonazepam (as needed). I can take this once in the morning and I'm done. It feels like pure bliss, but I have to see if it's a good longterm solution.


----------



## KurtG85

Medline said:


> I made regular breaks from GBL + Baclofen on weekends using Klonopin. But I don't think it's a very practicable regimen in the long term as half-life and duration of action of GBL/GHB is so short and I don't really want to drink that much orange juice.  I now take 5mg Desoxypipradrol + 20mg Escitalopram + 2mg Clonazepam (as needed). I can take this once in the morning and I'm done. It feels like pure bliss, but I have to see if it's a good longterm solution.


Can Desoxypipradrol be prescribed in the USA?
How would you describe its effects to other stimulants you have tried medline (if you have tried any others)?


----------



## Medline

It can not be prescribed as it is not approved by the FDA. But I don't consider it unsafe: 50-60 years ago it showed great efficiency, but the company that invented it (now Novartis) decided that they should go with Ritalin. Maybe more money can be made with these agents with short duration of action, I don't know.

I have just used Ritalin before, no street drugs at all. Desoxy feels stronger, but also smoother, not so much side effects like tachycardia and anxiety. It has a much longer half-life, is less expensive and not a controlled substance.


----------



## Futurebeats

Medline, I guess you probably have tried this already, but what do you think about using something like a gaba-b antagonist to promote upregulation of gaba-b receptors? 

Or i'm thinking about using something with a different mechanism like tiagabine to promote upregulation, since using an antagonist would be tedious with short term effects. Maybe combine this method with a nootropic like piracetam to try and help the process?

just something i'm looking into, i'm not educated in this in any way and don't know if i'm thinking about it correctly. Gaba-b seems like an important receptor to focus on to me.. (the only drugs to 'cure' me for a while are alcohol, ghb and phenibut, benzos don't help me)

Oh and one thing about the GHB withdrawal theories, when you tried acamprosate and topiramate was that after long chronic use? 
I just think with GHB there is rebound, extended rebound and withdrawals with the withdrawals being caused by a seperate mechanism. 

I've spent a couple of monthes dosing GHB all the time and the withdrawal was apparent for about 2 weeks and shared all the characteristics of other gabargenic withdrawals, just seems logical that it was caused by gaba receptor downregulation.. Also after that perioud, taking GHB gives me far worse rebounds even when its just 1 dose (i took a month off between it)
chronic use of agonist - receptor downregulation response, what could that feel like in reverse?


----------



## metamorphosis

Medline said:


> @Futurebeats: Nice to have you on the board.
> 
> Some may say that the dopamine rebound isn't real and that it's all about downregulation, but it occurs after just 2-3 doses GHB/GBL and 1-2mg Haldol (pure dopamine-antagonist) stop it (at least for me). These systems can't be downregulated that fast. Baclofen "hits" the GABA-B system harder than GHB/GBL, but to get physically dependent takes some time.
> 
> I had this theory too some years ago, but Acamprosate and Topiramate did very few for withdrawals. I've never tried Amantadine though. But then again: Why would the GABA/Glutamate system be "messed up" after just 2-3 doses of GHB/GBL? High dose alcohol and even fast acting barbiturates like Seconal can NOT do this. And if you've ever seen a drunk or read reports about barbiturate abusers than you know these are very strong chemicals.
> 
> You can not use a small dose of an MAOI and eat what you want, it's potent stuff that irreversibly inhibits MAO function. And I don't know if this GABA-B upregulation would help you in reality, especially if the parnate dose is low. People with spastics take up to 300mg/day of oral Baclofen and it takes weeks-months for them to develop physical dependence. I don't think that the GABA/Glutamate theory alone is all about GHB/GBL withdrawal.
> 
> That sucks, I have to carry orange juice bottles with GBL in my backpack and never ever give it to anyone. But I don't want to synthesize scheduled GHB powder and cap it.
> 
> @Jimminy: I'm from Europe, GBL is perfectly legal in my country. I wouldn't order GBL to the US or Australia.


What would be cosidered a low dose on Parnate?


----------



## Medline

> Medline, what do you think about using something like a gaba-b antagonist to promote upregulation of gaba-b receptors?


Interesting idea, but I know no GABA-B antagonist that is used nowadays. Using eg. a GABA-A drug like Klonopin and a GABA-B antagonist at night would probably amoleriate GABA-B downregulation. GHB withdrawal gets worse everytime. Have you used GHb 24/7 by the way, and if yes, for how long? I have used topiramate/acamprosate after long term GHB use to no avail.



> What would be cosidered a low dose on Parnate?


5-10mg probably.


----------



## Futurebeats

Medline said:


> Interesting idea, but I know no GABA-B antagonist that is used nowadays. Using eg. a GABA-A drug like Klonopin and a GABA-B antagonist at night would probably amoleriate GABA-B downregulation. GHB withdrawal gets worse everytime. Have you used GHb 24/7 by the way, and if yes, for how long? I have used topiramate/acamprosate after long term GHB use to no avail.


I used GHB first on and off over a month and didn't have problems quitting. A while later i spent about a month taking near 24/7 and that gave me a horrific withdrawal that I felt for 2 weeks.

Have you tried tiagabine or have any thoughts about it?


----------



## Medline

Never tried it, but it sounds interesting, a GRI. Combining it with a GABA transaminase-inhibitor would be cool, but vigabatrin is too toxic. Tiagabine + Phenelzine is probably synergistic and cool. I was sick enough to use GBL 24/7 for months, needed Pheno to come off.


----------



## euphoria

Through GBL I've pretty much wasted my life. Thrown out of college and fired from my job.

I've come to the realisation that its biphasic action makes it totally useless for my purposes (i.e. initial euphoria followed by massive sedation). Worthwhile effects seem to be in the 1.5-2ml range, which is also where I get that ****ing annoying sedation and confusion.

I've decided to completely stop it for at least a few months. Maybe I can claw my job and education back by proving I'm clean somehow; perhaps an outpatient rehab thing :/. Anyone know if drug tests detect GHB?

Medline how is G not screwing up your life? The only way I've managed it is by dosing <1.5ml which is pretty useless for anxiety.


----------



## Futurebeats

Medline said:


> Never tried it, but it sounds interesting, a GRI. Combining it with a GABA transaminase-inhibitor would be cool, but vigabatrin is too toxic. Tiagabine + Phenelzine is probably synergistic and cool. I was sick enough to use GBL 24/7 for months, needed Pheno to come off.


I think I might give it a go, i've had my eye on it for a while just havn't discussed it with anyone.. maybe add cycloserine to the mix to help apply some behavourial therapy if the tiagabine provides some relief.



euphoria said:


> Anyone know if drug tests detect GHB?.


It's an endogenous chemical so there will always be traces on drug tests.
I think 24 hours after last using it should be enough to pass a test, it has a short-lived action. 
I read that in the rare cases of people OD'ing and dying, it's difficult to tell if GHB was the cause because of this.


----------



## Medline

I stopped GBL, in the end it's a party drug. I use it on weekends, it's great to party and for sex especially if combined with strong stimulants like Amphetamine, Ritalin, Desoxy. I used doses of 1.75ml. 

You're life is not over, come on, you're young and smart. *hug* . I can just say, please never use it again. That euphoria you felt initially - it will never return. All you will get from now on is withdrawals and crashes. No drug test will be able to test for GHB. It's sometimes looked for in autopsies and date-rape cases, but it has a very short half-life and occurs normally in the human body, complicated detection methods.


----------



## StPatrick317

Medline said:


> I stopped GBL, in the end it's a party drug. I use it on weekends, it's great to party and for sex especially if combined with strong stimulants like Amphetamine, Ritalin, Desoxy. I used doses of 1.75ml.
> 
> You're life is not over, come on, you're young and smart. *hug* . I can just say, please never use it again. That euphoria you felt initially - it will never return. All you will get from now on is withdrawals and crashes. No drug test will be able to test for GHB. It's sometimes looked for in autopsies and date-rape cases, but it has a very short half-life and occurs normally in the human body, complicated detection methods.


You stopped GBL, so how are you still 100% cured of Social Phobia? You are using/not using amounts Selegilline, Moclobemide, Lexapro, and Klonopin and your still cured?

Did the GBL permanently change your body chemistry or something? I thought you had developed a way to maintain its effect..or is that possible?

The reason I asked this, is because I have an open minded doctor who is willing to consider things like GHB, as Im somebody has been around the block and through the electroshock machine as far as meds are concerned. I don't ever abuse meds at all either so he isn't worried.


----------



## Medline

I use Desoxypipradrol, it's kind of Adderall, but much stronger and longer acting. It can never be prescribed as it is no approved drug or controlled substance. I take Lexapro and Klonopin too, on weekends GBL to party.


----------



## Jrock

Medline said:


> GBL to party.


How do you get it? Friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend...........?

Its not prescribed is it?


----------



## Medline

Internet. The guy is a friend, but not of mine, it's a business relationship.


----------



## IllusionalFate

Does desoxypipradrol possess the sociabilising properties of amphetamines? If so, I want to try 5mg desoxy+1.5mg clonazepam and see how that goes. Combining a psychostimulant and benzo sounds like a very promising cocktail, my research has indicated you get the pro-social effects of CNS stimulants without the PNS anxiety that comes along with them PLUS additional anxiety relief from the benzo.


----------



## Medline

It works great! Stonger then Amphetamine. I combine 5mg Desoy with 2mg Klonopin and 20mg Lexapro.


----------



## X33

I didn't see you mention this in the last 2 pages, have you seen any permanent changes from the tb antibiotic?


----------



## Darvon

Curious Medline, how many failed medications did it take to get to the correct cocktail of medications?


----------



## Medline

It took me about 30-40 medication until to find the right cocktail for me. The cycloserine helped a little bit permanently.


----------



## Jrock

Medline said:


> It works great! Stonger then Amphetamine. I combine 5mg Desoy .


What is it......?Where do you get it?


----------



## Medline

Online, I don't tell where, against the board policy.


----------



## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

god i love this thread, very innovative. Thinking of moving to Europe so I can get some of these sweet meds


----------



## korey

Medline said:


> Online, I don't tell where, against the board policy.


It's not against the policy to send and receive private messages


----------



## Futurebeats

Hmm.. I'm looking into a propranolol and cycloserine cocktail.
Combine that with CBT, could potentially cure SA?


----------



## Medline

Sounds nice IMHO.


----------



## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

Ive been reading through dr bob's babble forum and found that a couple of people have trialed a low dose of PEA with nardil. One guy in particular, after stating all the dangers behind doing this trial and why taking PEA with a irreversible MAOI is a not a good idea at all, went onto to say that he used a low dose of about 20mg a day with his 75mg of nardil and found it completely effective for his depression and was very relaxing at the same time. However he said that once he stopped taking the PEA the withdrawal was quite bad and the depression and anxiety come back stronger than before.

I get my PEA in a couple of days, as well as plain gaba and another sup called chocamine. I definely will start very low with the PEA, but I have taken a fair bit of tyrosine over a few days while on nardil and it did nothing at all, no symptoms of hypertensive crisis whatsoever, so mayb I am quite resistant to it? Anyway I will post my results with the PEA.


----------



## euphoria

I tested a lot of PEA with selegiline, and my conclusion is that it should be avoided like the plague unless you have some carvedilol, reboxetine or similar drugs. The blood pressure rise is just too dangerous and the NA increases anxiety significantly.

Apart from that problem, PEA is really quite effective as an Adderall substitute.


----------



## Jimminy_Billy_Bob

I'm still going to see what happens anyway. As far as I have read tyrosine is just as dangerous with nardil and I took that for about a week with no effects what so ever, I stopped it because it wasnt helping at all.

Reboxetine? I took this a while ago and it did nothing for me really, but its a NRI, so how would this help when taking PEA? Taking Reboxetine with nardil would be dangerous also wouldnt it?


----------



## Medline

It should eleminate the need for dieatary restrictions, but I would be very careful when combining Reboxetine with MAOIs.


----------



## StPatrick317

euphoria said:


> I tested a lot of PEA with selegiline, and my conclusion is that it should be avoided like the plague unless you have some carvedilol, reboxetine or similar drugs. The blood pressure rise is just too dangerous and the NA increases anxiety significantly.
> 
> Apart from that problem, PEA is really quite effective as an Adderall substitute.


Are you really confident in your last statement? If it were true why would people pay so much for Adderall? I think most dietary supplements which people compare to prescription drugs are effective for usually a week or less than poop out, if they work at all.

Not to put a damper on it, but after having read supplement reviews on bodybuilding.com for the last 5+ years you get a good idea, if anything is for real. As far as PEA, it might work to enhance something, but on its own I doubt its just like Adderall.

(Note:I have not tried PEA or Adderall, which means I more than likely have no personal knowledge of either at all. Just skeptical that a cheap, bulk supplement could be as effective as an expensive prescription stimulant, consult your Doctor before taking new drugs or supplements-TM)


----------



## euphoria

StPatrick317 said:


> Are you really confident in your last statement? If it were true why would people pay so much for Adderall? I think most dietary supplements which people compare to prescription drugs are effective for usually a week or less than poop out, if they work at all.


PEA definitely has the potential to match or even exceed Adderall's effects due to its potent action on dopamine release. The only problem is getting the heart under control, which I don't believe is as much of a problem with Adderall.

You need to remember, PEA is pretty new on the supplement/drug scene so not that many people know about it.


----------



## beaches09

StPatrick317 said:


> Are you really confident in your last statement? If it were true why would people pay so much for Adderall? I think most dietary supplements which people compare to prescription drugs are effective for usually a week or less than poop out, if they work at all.
> 
> Not to put a damper on it, but after having read supplement reviews on bodybuilding.com for the last 5+ years you get a good idea, if anything is for real. As far as PEA, it might work to enhance something, but on its own I doubt its just like Adderall.
> 
> (Note:I have not tried PEA or Adderall, which means I more than likely have no personal knowledge of either at all. Just skeptical that a cheap, bulk supplement could be as effective as an expensive prescription stimulant, consult your Doctor before taking new drugs or supplements-TM)


PEA by itself gets metabolized in 5-10 minutes. He takes low dose Selegiline which is an MAO-B inhibitor that slows this process down so when you take PEA the brain levels will be increased dramatically and last for a longer time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylethylamine#Pharmacology

The ideas behind these brain neurotransmitter manipulation techniques in this thread are genius.

Muahahah I can't wait to get started on my new regimen


----------



## euphoria

Another thing I'd like to add is, I suffered a hypertensive reaction when I combined PEA, selegiline and alcohol. I think maybe the alcohol increased PEA levels further or induced some sort of tyramine reaction due to my high level of MAO inhibition. Cannabis and other PEA-increasing drugs may be similar.

I'll say it again though: PEA is worthless without anti-hypertensive drugs. You will end up killing yourself if you have that level of blood pressure for any length of time. I felt many symptoms of dangerously high BP, and was probably close to a stroke. At least have a stockpile of benzos if you plan on experimenting with this.



> Reboxetine? I took this a while ago and it did nothing for me really, but its a NRI, so how would this help when taking PEA? Taking Reboxetine with nardil would be dangerous also wouldnt it?


Good question. Reuptake inhibitors prevent the effects of drugs which release the same neurotransmitter (e.g. SSRIs + MDMA), so adding reboxetine to a PEA regimen prevents its NA-releasing properties, but not the dopamine effect. You may even want to add carvedilol on top of that to dampen the stimulation of reboxetine itself.

I believe this works for MAOI hypertension in the same way, only with tyramine replacing PEA as our NA-releaser.

I think this is a pretty effective way of isolating the dopaminergic effect of PEA, but I'll have to wait several weeks to find out. If this doesn't work then I'm going with my other idea of desoxypipradrol + buprenorphine + naltrexone + magnesium + SSRI + more.

Medline: are you sure you want to carry on using GBL? I thought it was useful for about 4 months, but looking back it just dehydrated me, ruined sleep, made me stupid and screwed up my life with the constant rebound anxiety and depression. GHB is better but I really think both should be left well alone in long-term use. Even opioids would probably have a better impact on life.


----------



## Jrock

euphoria said:


> The only problem is getting the heart under control.........


And if you don't get the heart under "control"? Sounds a little too risky. Also you maybe able to get away with it because your so young. Youth is resilient....


----------



## Medline

Carvedilol might help, but if you want to try it then please in an ICU.


----------



## korey

If only there were a realistic(/legal) way for all of this stuff to be combined into a pill or small series of pills (i.e. those GNC daily pill packets for different types of people) - then the rest of us might have a chance to experience all these results! :b


----------



## euphoria

korey said:


> If only there were a realistic(/legal) way for all of this stuff to be combined into a pill or small series of pills (i.e. those GNC daily pill packets for different types of people) - then the rest of us might have a chance to experience all these results! :b


If you ordered the stuff online and bought some gel caps, I'm sure the combos could be encapsulated. I don't think any of us would be willing to sell prescription only drugs illegally.


----------



## Medline

I won't even sell baby aspirin.  It works wonders for SA btw.


----------



## euphoria

Oh yeah Medline, I found a source for desoxy at about $500 for 10g. A lot of money, but maybe if we found 10 people to put in $50 for a gram...? In fact in 6 days I will have more money, so we could do 5 x $100. Only because it's legal am I considering this.


----------



## Medline

Sorry, I have my own sources. Let's make this private, OK. I don't want to be responsible if someone overdoses and gets a bad reaction.


----------



## korey

The only place I found online that sells desoxy requires that a person be somewhat of a trusted regular (with a certain post count) before they even consider selling it. Which I think is weird considering how it's not illegal or controlled, but there probably is some sort of liability thing attached to the seller, I guess, so I can see why all of this remains "hush hush" regarding selling it (but talking about the benefits of it on an open forum sure is annoying for the rest of us! :yes)


----------



## IllusionalFate

korey said:


> The only place I found online that sells desoxy requires that a person be somewhat of a trusted regular (with a certain post count) before they even consider selling it. Which I think is weird considering how it's not illegal or controlled, but there probably is some sort of liability thing attached to the seller, I guess, so I can see why all of this remains "hush hush" regarding selling it (but talking about the benefits of it on an open forum sure is annoying for the rest of us! :yes)


It might be considered a controlled substance analogue, which is probably why it's not more readily available online. I wonder if anyone in the US has ordered desoxy without it being confiscated at customs.


----------



## korey

IllusionalFate said:


> It might be considered a controlled substance analogue, which is probably why it's not more readily available online. I wonder if anyone in the US has ordered desoxy without it being confiscated at customs.


That's true. I took the IUPAC name of desoxy and plugged it into ChemDraw and got this:








I wish I still had access to an organic chemistry laboratory. It doesn't look like it would be difficult to make with the proper equipment. :int


----------



## Medline

It can be bought online. But just people who know how to handle this stuff exactly should consider doing so. It can be very dangerous.


----------



## beaches09

Is the Desoxy most comparable to the effects of what other stimulant? Ritalin, Adderall? What do you guys think? With the benefit of the much longer half life.


----------



## Medline

I just took Ritalin before so I can't tell. But I like Desoxy more. I never got into street drugs luckily.


----------



## IllusionalFate

Medline said:


> It can be bought online. But just people who know how to handle this stuff exactly should consider doing so. It can be very dangerous.


I'm not sure which country you live in, but US customs may have different policies than your country's. I still have not heard of anyone having success importing desoxy into the US.


----------



## Medline

I live in Europe.


----------



## Beffrey28

Medline, still going strong on the Desoxypipradrol, Klonopin and Lexapro combo?
If so, are you planning on using this combo longterm?


----------



## Medline

Yeah, but I'm getting low on the Desoxy and need a new cheap source. I also will detox from Klonopin (8mg/day) with Phenobarbital and then take it again at a somewhat lower dose. But doing fine, thanks for asking.  I LOVE fear and loathing in Las Vegas btw, cool Avatar, back to topic!


----------



## Beffrey28

Good to hear its still working for you! How come you are taking such a high dose of Klonopin?
Desoxy seems great to me too, but i have no idea where to get it. I'm trying Selegiline+PEA first.
Fear & Loathing is one of my favorite movies. It makes me feel good every time i see it!


----------



## Medline

I have to say I abused the Klonopin, it just feels really great with Desoxy. But I will change for the better.


----------



## Rubikdew

If you're still on drugs then you're not cured.


----------



## arhmt9

Medline said:


> I don't feel mentally retarded, but Bush also felt OK and then he attacked the Iraq, so you never know


Haha - that was a good one:lol


----------



## Medline

Yeah, you're the first to mention it after such a long time. Thanks for that.


----------



## BearFan

What about Pristiq?


----------



## Medline

It should work mainly like Effexor IMHO.


----------



## Phobiker

Medline said:


> I don't feel mentally retarded, but Bush also felt OK and then he attacked the Iraq, so you never know.


Hell yeah, that was really good! That all sounds pretty interesting! How do you feel so far? I think I would be zombie on this if I wouldn't just keel over dead.


----------



## Medline

I have no Desoxy any more, so I just take Lexapro, low dose Selegiline and Klonopin. Feel good, but of course not as good as on Desoxy.


----------



## Beffrey28

So the PEA didn't arrive yet? I'm still waiting too.....


----------



## euphoria

Mine arrived and was f****** awesome, but I lost most my drugs and need a clean period for a bit to try psychological therapy again. I might throw in a few supplements and carvedilol, but not proper drugs.


----------



## Medline

But for how long was your PEA f****ing awesome (duration of action). Which dose of Selegiline + PEA? Did you take Carvedilol or an NRI too? Did you look and act "high" or just like a prosocial guy? Thanks.


----------



## Halfie

Why have I never heard of 90% of these drugs despite seeing a psychiatrist for three years? He kept prescribing me bupropion, mirtazapine, and clonazepam (which made me sleep all day long, so I stopped taking it after a week). The other two drugs had practically no effect. I stopped taking them months ago and haven't noticed a difference; I'm still completely apathetic and unmotivated, to the point of being unable to function in school and at work. 

I tried taking lexapro before switching to this psychiatrist and developed anorgasmia. I also gained a noticeable amount of weight, and started having random, explosive outbursts and getting a ton of speeding tickets. He told me that bupropion is my only real option as far as antidepressants without sexual/weight gain side effects. Then after he prescribed me these drugs for years without comment, it was only after I complained they weren't working that he told me I had avoidant personality disorder (the first time I had ever heard this), that there is no medication that cures personality disorders, and that the personality disorder was keeping me depressed.

Anyway, I'm going to see him again for the first time since I stopped taking the drugs and I wondered if you guys have any suggestions for drugs that I should ask him about (in spite of what he said about personality disorder being incurable with meds--at this point, I only care about managing the symptoms). He seems to have a pretty liberal attitude about prescribing drugs, so he might be willing to consider drugs that aren't indicated for depression per se.


----------



## Halfie

How old are you, Medline, if you don't mind my asking? Your treatment works incredibly fast if you went from having two friends in January to partying every weekend now (assuming you started this regimen in January). How many friends do you have now? :-D This sounds too good to be true.


----------



## Medline

I'm 24. About 8 close friends, but at the moment I just take "normal" drugs like Lexapro, Selegiline and Klonopin. I don't party every weekend, but I'm not afraid of partying anymore.  

A combination of Adderall and a Benzo would most likely help against your symptoms.


----------



## euphoria

Medline said:


> But for how long was your PEA f****ing awesome (duration of action). Which dose of Selegiline + PEA? Did you take Carvedilol or an NRI too? Did you look and act "high" or just like a prosocial guy? Thanks.


It depends how much selegiline you're on. Maybe 5mg selegiline per day (for a week) and you can dose 200mg or so, which lasts several hours.


----------



## Medline

And you see it as a longterm solution? Is regular Phenylalanine/Tyrosine use a must if this regimen is used? Is there a crash, sleep problems like with Amphetamine/Ritalin? Do you think Selegiline + PEA could even be better/more suitable than Desoxy?


----------



## beaches09

I look forward to trying some PEA in the near future for nights out on the town. I am guessing you guys suggest not to mix alcohol with this?

I notice you guys say to use a noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor. I'm a little confused on this one. So keeping more noradrenaline around is a good thing? In my case where I take Mirtazapine giving to more noradrenaline release I would assume that's kind of the same thing right? Just without the blocking of the reuptake? Or is this the exact thing you guys are trying to do is block the recycling? Because it sounds like you guys are talking about how more noradrenaline is bad. So would mirtazapine actually going to make the situation worse? Sorry for sounding a bit newbish I'm still trying to figure all this stuff out


----------



## Medline

You would need Reboxetine or Atomoxetine, which are NRIs.


----------



## Lifetimer

Medline,

So, you plan to be taking these drugs the rest of your life? You don't see any future for yourself of being "drugless"? 


Lifetimer


----------



## deltan144

How on earth do you afford that many meds?
i can't even afford to just have SSRI's alone -_-

Do you really need that many, how bad is your SAD and how did you cope with school, uni?


----------



## Medline

In my country we have perfect health care system, nearly everybody is insured, any med costs just 5$ (4 Euro), nothing for very poor/ill persons. Right now I take just 3 meds (Lexapro, low dose Selegiline and Klonopin as needed). I doubt I will take meds for the rest of my life as I am not very ill (physically or mentally). I had a very rough time in school.


----------



## Lifetimer

Lifetimer said:


> Medline,
> 
> So, you plan to be taking these drugs the rest of your life? You don't see any future for yourself of being "drugless"?
> 
> Lifetimer


Medline,

Did you miss seeing my previous message?


----------



## Medline

...


> I doubt I will take meds for the rest of my life as I am not very ill (physically or mentally)


----------



## stealyourface722

then why are you here? i dont understand, shouldnt you be thnking about other things? i just dont get it. how can you be cured if youre still here


----------



## Medline

Want to help other people...


----------



## Medline

*Update:*

Altough I'm off drugs for months my social anxiety is down to ~30% (I really don't know if the 50mg Cycloserine / day I took are the reason for this). Problem is my "social drive" is pretty low. I think this is a problem for quite many people with severe / treatment resistant social phobia. 8mg clonazepam / day significantly reduce my anxiety and by using Phenobarbital every 3 months for 10-14 days to detoxify from the benzo I wouldn't even get much benzo tolerance and / or physical dependence. But IMHO "social drive" is closely related to dopamine (probably oxytocin too, but intranasal carbetocin [oxytocin agonist] won't be available too soon and just off-label). Therefor I will start a new drug regimen within two weeks (I have legit scripts for those drugs then):

Selegiline: 5mg / day
Clonazepam 8mg (4mg bid) / day eventually just as needed
Methylphenidate: 2.5-5mg? (I'm not sure about the right dose yet.)
Carvedilol: 25mg (12.5mg bid)


----------



## meyaj

I like the idea of the selegiline and moclobemide. It may not be the most *effective* MAOI regimen but it neatly sidesteps a lot of the adverse effects and diet restrictions.

The baclofen is actually something I've been looking at lately. How do you get all these meds prescribed anyways? I imagine your doctor is fairly old because this kind of stuff is definitely not by the book.

Which is a good thing in my opinion... my pdoc literally SHOWED me a book with prescribing guidelines for mental disorders when I insisted on trying an MAOI. She flips to the page and says, "see? MAOIs aren't indicated." That actually gave me a bit more insight, because it didn't take me long to spot phenelzine and selegiline as 2nd-line treatments. Lyrica/Neurontin were also in there and are something I've wanted to try as an alternative to benzos, but she's refused. As you can see, the meds I've taken have all been SS(N)RI's, tricyclics, (non-)benzos, and antipsychotics. Not creative psychopharmacology in the least.

So I tried as politely as I could to point out that MAOIs were actually in the book she just thrust at me, also asking about the gabapentin/pregabalin. I think she might be angry with me or something because pretty much immediately after I pointed it out, she let me know she was going to refer me to a much more comprehensive mental health facility.


----------



## newboki

See I don't think Medline you are cured from reading this thread?


----------



## belfort

^^at this point in time no one can be CURED of social phobia or social anxiety...the same goes for bi-polar and other disorders, they cannot be cured, just treated and dealt with...believe me, i wish i could be more optimistic but im too much of a realist for that...


----------



## delirium

If by "cured" you mean you never feel anxious in ANY social situation, then that's impossible. Even people who don't identify as having social anxiety feel anxious at times... it's a universal human emotion. If by "cured" you mean that you're no longer limited by being too anxious to participate in various social situations, then AWESOME. I've found that it is POSSIBLE to change... and you are more proof of that.


----------



## newboki

belfort said:


> ^^at this point in time no one can be CURED of social phobia or social anxiety...the same goes for bi-polar and other disorders, they cannot be cured, just treated and dealt with...believe me, i wish i could be more optimistic but im too much of a realist for that...





delirium said:


> If by "cured" you mean you never feel anxious in ANY social situation, then that's impossible. Even people who don't identify as having social anxiety feel anxious at times... it's a universal human emotion. If by "cured" you mean that you're no longer limited by being too anxious to participate in various social situations, then AWESOME. I've found that it is POSSIBLE to change... and you are more proof of that.


I agree with both posts.
And i think everyone have different definition of what it means to be cured.


----------



## Medline

By "cured" I mean asymptomatic. Not the medical correct definition, but being happy and symptom free is better than always being "correct" anyway.



meyaj said:


> I like the idea of the selegiline and moclobemide. It may not be the most *effective* MAOI regimen but it neatly sidesteps a lot of the adverse effects and diet restrictions.
> 
> The baclofen is actually something I've been looking at lately. How do you get all these meds prescribed anyways? I imagine your doctor is fairly old because this kind of stuff is definitely not by the book.
> 
> Which is a good thing in my opinion... my pdoc literally SHOWED me a book with prescribing guidelines for mental disorders when I insisted on trying an MAOI. She flips to the page and says, "see? MAOIs aren't indicated." That actually gave me a bit more insight, because it didn't take me long to spot phenelzine and selegiline as 2nd-line treatments. Lyrica/Neurontin were also in there and are something I've wanted to try as an alternative to benzos, but she's refused. As you can see, the meds I've taken have all been SS(N)RI's, tricyclics, (non-)benzos, and antipsychotics. Not creative psychopharmacology in the least.
> 
> So I tried as politely as I could to point out that MAOIs were actually in the book she just thrust at me, also asking about the gabapentin/pregabalin. I think she might be angry with me or something because pretty much immediately after I pointed it out, she let me know she was going to refer me to a much more comprehensive mental health facility.


Yeah, my Pdoc is old school and "can think outside the box". He has extensive knowledge about eg. MAOIs and also doesn't hesitate to augment them if necessary. Btw: Prescribing antipsychotics for 'just' SA is wrong, especially long-term and TCAs have never shown to be effective for social phobia in randomized, controlled, double-blind trials.



delirium said:


> If by "cured" you mean you never feel anxious in ANY social situation, then that's impossible. Even people who don't identify as having social anxiety feel anxious at times... it's a universal human emotion. If by "cured" you mean that you're no longer limited by being too anxious to participate in various social situations, then AWESOME. I've found that it is POSSIBLE to change... and you are more proof of that.


Having no anxiety at all would be a good way to get killed by doing stupid & risky stuff. Evolution didn't create anxiety just for fun, but it hadn't enough time to adapt to our modern live style. Rejection by a person you like isn't exactly like an attack by mammoths, but if you have SA it can feel quite the same. 

PS: I've never actually been attacked by mammoths, so "eventually" it does feel worse than rejection.


----------



## newboki

Medline said:


> By "cured" I mean asymptomatic. Not the medical correct definition, but being happy and symptom free is better than always being "correct" anyway.[/URL]


I understand the part being happy but can you explain in more details what you mean by symptom free? This answer maight be helpful to me. Thanks.


----------



## britisharrow

What's the deal with GBL, after reading this article I'll never ever do it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/health/newsid_10000000/newsid_10001900/10001982.stm


----------



## Medline

Like the before meth after meth pictures. But liver failure? GBL is for sure not (hepato)toxic, maybe she abused other drugs too. Or she took 1,4-BDO or GBL from a really bad source. I was addicted to GBL and consumed ~10 litres, my liver enzymes were always normal, all other medical tests too and I look just like before. But taking GBL 24/7 is definitively a very bad idea, withdrawal is hell.


----------



## IllusionalFate

Medline said:


> Yeah, my Pdoc is old school and "can think outside the box". He has extensive knowledge about eg. MAOIs and also doesn't hesitate to augment them if necessary.


Lucky! I asked my pdoc for selegiline and he opened his eyes wide, exclaiming "I don't want to lose my license!". I taught him a few things about pharmacology that day :lol though he still wouldn't give in. Hopefully my selegiline order wasn't confiscated by customs...

Your regimen sounds nice; particularly the selegiline + methylphenidate. Why the carvedilol though? You'll use such low doses of Ritalin that adrenergic effects should be negligible.


----------



## Medline

IllusionalFate said:


> Lucky! I asked my pdoc for selegiline and he opened his eyes wide, exclaiming "I don't want to lose my license!". I taught him a few things about pharmacology that day :lol though he still wouldn't give in. Hopefully my selegiline order wasn't confiscated by customs...
> 
> Your regimen sounds nice; particularly the selegiline + methylphenidate. Why the carvedilol though? You'll use such low doses of Ritalin that adrenergic effects should be negligible.


I hope you receive your Selegiline. Do you plan to take MAO-B selective doses? Will you combine it with something? Btw: You are very likely right, the carvedilol is probably not necessary. I will up the Ritalin doses really carefully and I guess the main risk of a too high dose of Ritalin would be dopaminergic overstimulation and I have antipsychotics + benzos at hand. Nevertheless I think carvedilol is a great drug, it can help with physical symptoms of anxiety, some of it's metabolites are extremely potent antioxidants and altough my blood pressure is in the "normal range" AFAIK the lower it is without causing problems the better for the cardiovascular system.


----------



## Makaveli

delirium said:


> If by "cured" you mean you never feel anxious in ANY social situation, then that's impossible. Even people who don't identify as having social anxiety feel anxious at times... it's a universal human emotion. *If by "cured" you mean that you're no longer limited by being too anxious to participate in various social situations*, then AWESOME. I've found that it is POSSIBLE to change...


That's the best way of putting it. The only way that can happen is by forcing yourself out more and more, no matter how bad you feel or how much you wont enjoy it, feel inscure or whatever. People aren't mind readers, alot of people mask their anxieties with nervous energy etc.

Meds can make you relax and taper you down a bit but the only way is to expose yourself consistently to a point where your subconscious gets used to being around people.

Whenever I am having a "depression day" alot of people who don't know me ask why I am so quiet. They're used to me being an outgoing type.

Consistent meds make me more outgoing with less inhibitions but when I'm in social situations like parties, weddings, work functions then I do get all self conscious. The only way for that to alleviate is with practice and CBT.

I believe CBT will help with my inferiority complexities, my avoidant personality etc.


----------



## Medline

Yeah, carvedilol can really reduce or even eliminate (physical) symptoms of anxiety. Personally I don't get any side effects like sedation from this drug, but I very seldom get any side effects from drugs in general.

Your regimen seems well thought out. To speak openly cymbalta I don't like much, but if it helps you it's of course ok.


----------



## Makaveli

Freesix88 said:


> Wow indeed. That is exactly what I experienced Medline, the anti-anxiety effects from carvedilol. It also makes me a bit tired but that could be the results of less adrenaline. It's potent stuff. Sometimes I take it before bedtime, way better than benzo's for sleeping.
> 
> Huh Selegiline is not a controlled substance right? It's easy to get I think and pretty cheap also.
> 
> My new regimen eventually I hope  :
> 
> Cymbalta 60 mg daily
> selegiline 2.5 mg daily (maybe)
> carvedilol 12.5 mg daily (the reason I take this because I'm pretty sensitive to stimulants)
> Chelated magnesium 200-400 mg daily
> 
> Weekend:
> Day 1: klonopin 2 mg
> Day 2: klonopin 2 mg
> 
> During the week:
> 
> Day 3: d-amphetamine 5-10 mg
> Day 4: d-amphetamine 5-10 mg
> Day 5: klonopin 2 mg
> Day 6: d-amphetamine 5-10 mg
> Day 7: d-amphetamine 5-10 mg
> 
> Maybe I'll replace d-amp with 2x5 mg selegiline, pretty good also for dopamine.
> 
> I hope to avoid tolerance and dependency with this regimen.
> 
> Let's see if this work or I can add this to my already big fail list.


Bloody hell that's alot of meds. Surely that's not the way to go about it.


----------



## IllusionalFate

Medline said:


> I hope you receive your Selegiline. Do you plan to take MAO-B selective doses? Will you combine it with something? Btw: You are very likely right, the carvedilol is probably not necessary. I will up the Ritalin doses really carefully and I guess the main risk of a too high dose of Ritalin would be dopaminergic overstimulation and I have antipsychotics + benzos at hand. Nevertheless I think carvedilol is a great drug, it can help with physical symptoms of anxiety, some of it's metabolites are extremely potent antioxidants and altough my blood pressure is in the "normal range" AFAIK the lower it is without causing problems the better for the cardiovascular system.


I plan to take 2.5-5mg combined with Adderall, and if selegiline really is a reversible DRI and blunts amphetamines then I'd switch to methylphenidate.

I can't think of a specific reason why carvedilol wouldn't cause any problems. The only thing I'd be wary about is rebound adrenergic effects (tapering may make this a non-issue) and reduction in the benefits of NE neurotransmission.


----------



## jim_morrison

Freesix88 said:


> Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duloxetine
> 
> Hmmm....


I beleive this is the study they were refering to in that wiki article.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(09)60046-5/abstract

"Mirtazapine, escitalopram, venlafaxine, and sertraline were significantly more efficacious than duloxetine (odds ratios [OR] 1·39, 1·33, 1·30 and 1·27, respectively), fluoxetine (1·37, 1·32, 1·28, and 1·25, respectively), fluvoxamine (1·41, 1·35, 1·30, and 1·27, respectively), paroxetine (1·35, 1·30, 1·27, and 1·22, respectively), and reboxetine (2·03, 1·95, 1·89, and 1·85, respectively). Reboxetine was significantly less efficacious than all the other antidepressants tested. Escitalopram and sertraline showed the best profile of acceptability, leading to significantly fewer discontinuations than did duloxetine, fluvoxamine, paroxetine, reboxetine, and venlafaxine."


----------



## jim_morrison

Medline said:


> Hypothesis: Elevating levels of 5-HT, DA, GABA, NE and Oxytocin in the CNS increases the probability of making a complete recovery. Low dose of the NMDA-antagonist Cycloserine may help to "hardwire" the results in the brain.
> 
> What do you think?


Have you ever tried the SNRI Milnacipran? becasue according to this, it may boost 5-HT, DA, NE and also act as an NMDA- antagonist.

http://stahlonline.cambridge.org/pr...rapeutics&name=Milnacipran&title=Therapeutics

"How The Drug Works;

*Boosts neurotransmitters serotonin, norepinephrine/noradrenaline, and dopamine 
*Weak noncompetitive NMDA-receptor antagonist (high doses), which may contribute to actions in chronic pain 
*Blocks serotonin reuptake pump (serotonin transporter), presumably increasing serotonergic neurotransmission 
*Blocks norepinephrine reuptake pump (norepinephrine transporter), presumably increasing noradrenergic neurotransmission 
*Since dopamine is inactivated by norepinephrine reuptake in frontal cortex, which largely lacks dopamine transporters, milnacipran can increase dopamine neurotransmission in this part of the brain."


----------



## Medline

jim_morrison said:


> Have you ever tried the SNRI Milnacipran? becasue according to this, it may boost 5-HT, DA, NE and also act as an NMDA- antagonist.


I have tried Milnacipran for a short amount of time, but as it gave me 'massive' tachycardia (my pulse rate jumped from 60 to ~180) I dropped it pretty fast. My (female) psychiatrist at that time told me to cool down and just take Propranolol (Inderal), but I hated the idea to take one drug just to reduce the side effects of another drug.


----------



## Ash09

britisharrow said:


> What's the deal with GBL, after reading this article I'll never ever do it.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/health/newsid_10000000/newsid_10001900/10001982.stm


The BBC is a organisation that constantly pumps out sensationalist anti-drug propaganda much like the Daily Mail and the Sun newspapers (all of them are full of factual errors), I wouldn't take anything they publish too seriously.


----------



## meyaj

You can even get a prescription for GHB if you're really lucky. The process for it is absolutely bizarre though, and it runs you about $2,000 a month. How the hell a company gets to patent something that's already been available, I don't know. And since it's an orphan drug, they get an extended patent!

I can only wait until 2020 when that patent expires!!


----------



## Thomas Paine

My cure is much simpler: The AK-47, Northern Lights, or MK-Ultra strains of medical marijuana. It also prevents my migraines and I never have to worry about overdosing on accident.


----------



## meyaj

Thomas Paine said:


> My cure is much simpler: The AK-47, Northern Lights, or MK-Ultra strains of medical marijuana. It also prevents my migraines and I never have to worry about overdosing on accident.


Weed usually does bad things to me but I've found Purple Kush to be far superior. Not at ALL a sativa fan, practically makes me psychotic. Purple Kush is the ultimate couch-lock strain in my opinion, and I've used it more than once to deal with KIDNEY STONE pain. It's weird that it doesn't eliminate the pain, so much as modify it into more of a ticklish sensation that's a lot easier to bear.

Weed makes me super withdrawn though, not a cure at all for me. I think if I could get some pharmaceutical CBD, it would be a very effective remedy, but THC tends to make everything a bad trip for me.


----------



## Thomas Paine

meyaj said:


> Weed usually does bad things to me but I've found Purple Kush to be far superior. Not at ALL a sativa fan, practically makes me psychotic. Purple Kush is the ultimate couch-lock strain in my opinion, and I've used it more than once to deal with KIDNEY STONE pain. It's weird that it doesn't eliminate the pain, so much as modify it into more of a ticklish sensation that's a lot easier to bear.
> 
> Weed makes me super withdrawn though, not a cure at all for me. I think if I could get some pharmaceutical CBD, it would be a very effective remedy, but THC tends to make everything a bad trip for me.


For some reason, if it has a good balance between sativa and indica, it makes me less withdrawn and the world seems like a friendlier place. Expertly grown Northern Lights and MK-Ultra have these qualities, but AK-47 is actually more like 75% sativa and for me was mainly for when I was having a migraine because it knocked neurological pain on it's ***... living up to it's name, lol. The MK-Ultra was the most mellow, balanced high I've ever experienced though. Perfectly described in that movie _American Beauty_.

Anyway, these were from high quality, legal dispensaries in California. On the street, everybody calls the stuff they're selling "Kush", "Skunk", or some other cool sounding name, and the purple color of weed has no effect on it's high. It is just a genetic mutation that comes out more when it's grown in an atmosphere of cold nights.


----------



## meyaj

Thomas Paine said:


> Anyway, these were from high quality, legal dispensaries in California. On the street, everybody calls the stuff they're selling "Kush", "Skunk", or some other cool sounding name, and the purple color of weed has no effect on it's high. It is just a genetic mutation that comes out more when it's grown in an atmosphere of cold nights.


Aware of this. There actually is a legitimate strain called Purple Kush though, although street dealers will sell anything with a bit of purple as "purple kush."

Haven't bought in maybe a year or so, but I bought my stuff from a very high quality source in BC over the Internet, believe it or not. Cost a pretty penny too. Everybody doubts the quality when I tell them about it, but anybody I've given a little taste to agrees that it's the most potent stuff they've ever tried. It's really telling when my Canadian brethren are willing to pay $30/gram.

Not a weed connoisseur, although my younger brother is, and HEAVILY so, so I've sampled quite a bit of the better strains the world. In general I tolerate the indica strains better, but all of this weed has such a high THC content (>20%) that it can literally give me bad trips. I'd love to see a pharmaceutical product for anxiety or pain that is strictly CBD.


----------



## Thomas Paine

meyaj said:


> I'd love to see a pharmaceutical product for anxiety or pain that is strictly CBD.


In Amsterdam they let you buy CBD separate from THC. I heard that it did nothing though, but the guy might not have had anxiety.


----------



## Thomas Paine

BTW, I'm sorry for not saying this before, Medline, but congratulations! That's awesome. I wish I had access to all that stuff right now since I don't have access to good, legal weed.


----------



## Medline

@Thomas Paine: Thanks!



> You can even get a prescription for GHB if you're really lucky. The process for it is absolutely bizarre though, and it runs you about $2,000 a month. How the hell a company gets to patent something that's already been available, I don't know. And since it's an orphan drug, they get an extended patent!


One also has to keep in mind that GHB is a substance occuring naturally in the human body, it's known for decades and altough a schedule I drug ("highly dangerous and addictive") it can be prescribed as a schedule III drug. Every idiot can synthesize it and it's damn cheap to produce.


----------



## Thomas Paine

Medline said:


> One also has to keep in mind that GHB is a substance occuring naturally in the human body, it's known for decades and altough a schedule I drug ("highly dangerous and addictive") it can be prescribed as a schedule III drug. Every idiot can synthesize it and it's damn cheap to produce.


I think I remember hearing about somebody in my area getting caught ordering the supplies with the intent to produce this and got in some serious trouble. That's what scares me.


----------



## Medline

Thomas Paine said:


> I think I remember hearing about somebody in my area getting caught ordering the supplies with the intent to produce this and got in some serious trouble. That's what scares me.


When it's about the DDDRD ("damn deadly date rape drug" :roll) GHB serious trouble probably means the DEA just shot him.



IllusionalFate said:


> I plan to take 2.5-5mg combined with Adderall, and if selegiline really is a reversible DRI and blunts amphetamines then I'd switch to methylphenidate.
> 
> I can't think of a specific reason why carvedilol wouldn't cause any problems. The only thing I'd be wary about is rebound adrenergic effects (tapering may make this a non-issue) and reduction in the benefits of NE neurotransmission.


You got this info about selegiline and amphetamine from this study: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1571229 right? I think low dose methylphenidate is better in combination with low dose selegiline.

I never got rebound tachycardia from carvedilol, just from propranolol. Reduced NE effects are probably not a bad thing, I am sensitive to it.


----------



## IllusionalFate

Medline said:


> You got this info about selegiline and amphetamine from this study: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1571229 right? I think low dose methylphenidate is better in combination with low dose selegiline.


I read part of that before, and I remember I didn't even want to try selegiline with amphetamine after reading just one paragraph. Skimming through it, there looks to be some good info on why it wouldn't work.

This is the study I was thinking of when I posted that:
http://www.selegiline.com/doptran.html


----------



## cyndy

medline, i'm so glad you've had success!!
you're not leaving us now are you? i look so forward to your posts and replies and endless pharmacological knowledge : )


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## jakeforpresident

Medline,

have you kept up your drug combo? Is it still working??

If so, what is the current list of drugs that are doing the trick?


----------



## Medline

cyndy said:


> medline, i'm so glad you've had success!!
> you're not leaving us now are you? i look so forward to your posts and replies and endless pharmacological knowledge : )


Don't worry, I won't leave. 



jakeforpresident said:


> Medline,
> 
> have you kept up your drug combo? Is it still working??
> 
> If so, what is the current list of drugs that are doing the trick?


I will get the Ritalin script at my next Pdoc visit. The other drugs I already have by now.



Medline said:


> *Update:*
> 
> Altough I'm off drugs for months my social anxiety is down to ~30% (I really don't know if the 50mg Cycloserine / day I took are the reason for this). Problem is my "social drive" is pretty low. I think this is a problem for quite many people with severe / treatment resistant social phobia. 8mg clonazepam / day significantly reduce my anxiety and by using Phenobarbital every 3 months for 10-14 days to detoxify from the benzo I wouldn't even get much benzo tolerance and / or physical dependence. But IMHO "social drive" is closely related to dopamine (probably oxytocin too, but intranasal carbetocin [oxytocin agonist] won't be available too soon and just off-label). Therefor I will start a new drug regimen within two weeks (I have legit scripts for those drugs then):
> 
> Selegiline: 5mg / day
> Clonazepam 8mg (4mg bid) / day eventually just as needed
> Methylphenidate: 2.5-5mg? (I'm not sure about the right dose yet.)
> Carvedilol: 25mg (12.5mg bid)


----------



## Medline

Earlier I used to buy much stuff online, now I get most drugs from my Pdoc.


----------



## Ehsan

hi Medline,
i've read lots of papers about SAD and i've spent many days researching about psychoactive drugs.
i think scientific findings about neurobiology of SAD and brain is really unreliable :
for example:


> *How much reliable are researchers' findings about psychiatry and social phobia?!*
> 
> 1) Am J Psychiatry 157:3, March 2000
> Low Dopamine D2 Receptor Binding Potential in Social Phobia
> 
> 2) The Journal of Nuclear Medicine • Vol. 49 • No. 5 • May 2008
> Increased Serotonin and Dopamine Transporter Binding in Psychotropic Medication-Naı¨ve Patients with Generalized Social Anxiety Disorder
> 
> *The above two papers' results are consistent and are used in many other papers but the following new paper rejects their findings:*
> 
> 3) Depression and Anxiety, 2009
> Dopamine transporters, D2 receptors, and dopamine release in generalized social anxiety disorder
> Concludes: These findings do not replicate previous findings of altered striatal DAT and D2 receptor availability in GSAD subjects assessed with SPECT. The differences from results of prior studies may be due to differences in imaging methods or characteristics of samples.


it seems they first find meds and then find its mechanism of action.
unfortunately i haven't easy access to many drugs but i'm still searching for some cues about SAD and some accessible and suitable combination of meds.

*btw, i wanna know what have been your LSAS score and age before and after using your regimen?*


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

IllusionalFate said:


> I read part of that before, and I remember I didn't even want to try selegiline with amphetamine after reading just one paragraph. Skimming through it, there looks to be some good info on why it wouldn't work.


is it true that once-weekly selegiline will diminish the positive effects of Amphetamine? cuz i took selegiline with Methylphenidate and it worked great, but i got tolerant very very fast. I thought Amphetamine would work longer cuz it releases DA instead of just being a DRI.......

so amphetamine+selegiline = waste? should i go for methylphenidate instead..


----------



## IllusionalFate

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> is it true that once-weekly selegiline will diminish the positive effects of Amphetamine? cuz i took selegiline with Methylphenidate and it worked great, but i got tolerant very very fast. I thought Amphetamine would work longer cuz it releases DA instead of just being a DRI.......
> 
> so amphetamine+selegiline = waste? should i go for methylphenidate instead..


Since posting that, I have tried the combo and it did not alter the effects of amphetamine at all after 7 days of consecutive administration of 5mg selegiline per day. In the first week of using it though, amphetamine's psychological effects were blocked and physical stimulation heavily attenuated.


----------



## Positive

How do you cure yourself from this?


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

IllusionalFate said:


> Since posting that, I have tried the combo and it did not alter the effects of amphetamine at all after 7 days of consecutive administration of 5mg selegiline per day. In the first week of using it though, amphetamine's psychological effects were blocked and physical stimulation heavily attenuated.


interesting.....im only thinking of taking Selegiline once every week, to get just some MAO-B inhibition to prevent a little bit of neurotoxicity..... do you think the decrease of amphetamine's dopaminergic effects is due to metabolites of selegiline, or the increase in PEA? ....im not particularly worried about the inactive DATs that selegiline somehow makes,....cuz if they were active, Seleg.+Ritalin wouldn't have worked so well for me...(it was awesome)


----------



## odspot

what are your thoughts on moclobemide as an AD overall medline?

it was the first AD i was put on (it's used as a first choice for anxiety/mild depression where i live) - i remember it having a nice anxiolytic effect, which eventually devolved into a kind of blahness/apathy, forcing me to discontinue it. i guess that might be a dopamine downregulation thing? i don't think i got very high dose-wise ... maybe 300mg at the most. should i aim for higher?

since then, i've tried various SSRI's, Remeron, Nardil, Parnate, but found them all intolerable as far as s/e's go, and in the case of Nardil/Parnate just way too strong for my situation. the problem isn't so much my depression as cognitive deficits i experience (from a combination of med trials, anxiety, stress etc., i guess), which make it difficult to engage in the tasks which i feel would relieve my depression (returning to grad school, work, etc.). my working memory in particular seems to have taken a hit. low dose Memantine completely reversed those working memory deficits - which makes me think a little D2 stimulation might help - but wasn't much use as monotherapy. my psych just keeps throwing stronger and stronger agents at me (antipsychotics, anafranil, etc.) which aren't really helping my situation. 

i'm thinking of returning to Moclobemide as a way of trying to stabilize my mood/anxiety levels, and then proceeding from there. as augmenting agents, i have access to Dexedrine (i couldn't handle Ritalin, so my doc wants to try this ... i see a separate doctor for ADHD issues, because i would have no access to stims otherwise), Memantine (which i used with some success as lower doses, but which got weird at higher ones ..).

what are your thoughts on a Moclobemide + low dose Memantine and/or Dex/Deprenyl combo? 

or alternatively, i have thought about using a low dose of a clean SSRI like Zoloft or Celexa, and then combining it with something like low-dose Geodon, which agonises D2 without much fuss (i have a friend who's sensitive like me, and using it with success as a cognition enhancer). 

unfortunately, i have yet to find a psych who cares much about my real-world functioning outside of my Dx, so am trying to come up with something on my own. i am a bundle of worry/depression/nerves now, so understand i need to stabilize in that respect first, which is why i became interested in Moclobemide again .. though from what i hear it's liable to pooping out quickly (i only stayed on it for about 4 months). the other ssri's i tried were lexapro, luvox, and prozac (which i liked, but gave me insomnia, so my psych pulled it). 

DX: OCD, ADHD, depression


----------



## GnR

Hey medline, any updates? Are you planning on getting back on Desoxy, or are you trying the Selegiline+Methylphenidate combo. I'm wondering how those two would compare. I believe you were taking something like 5mg of Desoxy a day, did the long duration of the compound cause any problems with taking that much daily. I've seen reports of people going days without sleep due to one dose of 10mg or even less. I'm just trying to figure out how practical this compound may or may not be.


----------



## IllusionalFate

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> interesting.....im only thinking of taking Selegiline once every week, to get just some MAO-B inhibition to prevent a little bit of neurotoxicity..... do you think the decrease of amphetamine's dopaminergic effects is due to metabolites of selegiline, or the increase in PEA? ....im not particularly worried about the inactive DATs that selegiline somehow makes,....cuz if they were active, Seleg.+Ritalin wouldn't have worked so well for me...(it was awesome)


I'd rule out increased PEA since it's only a reuptake inhibitor through competitive uptake, which results in only negligible inhibition. Think of it as taking 20mg amphetamine, then a half hour later taking another 20mg - even though the first dose is entering catecholaminergic neurons, the second dose will still end up getting taken into the cell. I'm not quite sure how selegiline inhibits the effects of amphetamine, I can only think of one possible explanation and I doubt it's the actual reason why it happens. That is, MAO-B inhibition reduces the activity of DOPA decarboxylase, in turn drastically reducing the amount of newly-synthesized dopamine which is what amphetamine moves into the synapse.


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

IllusionalFate said:


> I'd rule out increased PEA since it's only a reuptake inhibitor through competitive uptake, which results in only negligible inhibition. Think of it as taking 20mg amphetamine, then a half hour later taking another 20mg - even though the first dose is entering catecholaminergic neurons, the second dose will still end up getting taken into the cell. I'm not quite sure how selegiline inhibits the effects of amphetamine, I can only think of one possible explanation and I doubt it's the actual reason why it happens. That is, MAO-B inhibition reduces the activity of DOPA decarboxylase, in turn drastically reducing the amount of newly-synthesized dopamine which is what amphetamine moves into the synapse.


weird....but thanks for the response lol.... how much do you think 5mg selegiline taken once a week would affect DA release from Dextroamph?


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

IllusionalFate said:


> I'd rule out increased PEA since it's only a reuptake inhibitor through competitive uptake, which results in only negligible inhibition. Think of it as taking 20mg amphetamine, then a half hour later taking another 20mg - even though the first dose is entering catecholaminergic neurons, the second dose will still end up getting taken into the cell. I'm not quite sure how selegiline inhibits the effects of amphetamine, I can only think of one possible explanation and I doubt it's the actual reason why it happens. That is, MAO-B inhibition reduces the activity of DOPA decarboxylase, in turn drastically reducing the amount of newly-synthesized dopamine which is what amphetamine moves into the synapse.


you know, im thinking about just doing Ritalin instead....i know from experience that Ritalin + Selegiline is SUPER powerful, and it works great. and i don't wanna worry about neurotoxicity from D-amph ...unless i took it with Selegiline, and if it attentuated the effects, that would suck... and besides, whenever i take selegiline on its own, or in the form of an EMSAM patch, i feel terrible. it seems depressive to me, not at all anti-depressant.

i wish i could prevent the neurotoxicity of Amph some other way than using Seleg, or purchasing Rasagiline at expensive prices.....wait..... i could inhibit some MAO-B by smoking regularly....however i don't know if i really want to smoke regularly, just to inhibit 50% maximum of MAO-B


----------



## IllusionalFate

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> weird....but thanks for the response lol.... how much do you think 5mg selegiline taken once a week would affect DA release from Dextroamph?


I have no idea, but why would you want to take it once a week when you could just take it every day/every other day?



Vini Vidi Vici said:


> you know, im thinking about just doing Ritalin instead....i know from experience that Ritalin + Selegiline is SUPER powerful, and it works great. and i don't wanna worry about neurotoxicity from D-amph ...unless i took it with Selegiline, and if it attentuated the effects, that would suck... and besides, whenever i take selegiline on its own, or in the form of an EMSAM patch, i feel terrible. it seems depressive to me, not at all anti-depressant.


That sounds like the best plan to me. If Ritalin + selegiline is synergistic then it'll probably beat amphetamines, all things considered.



> i wish i could prevent the neurotoxicity of Amph some other way than using Seleg, or purchasing Rasagiline at expensive prices.....wait..... i could inhibit some MAO-B by smoking regularly....however i don't know if i really want to smoke regularly, just to inhibit 50% maximum of MAO-B


You're worrying too much about amphetamine's minor neurotoxicity. Unless you're planning on using it almost daily in borderline recreational doses, then the damage you'll incur shouldn't be anything noticeable.


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

IllusionalFate said:


> I have no idea, but why would you want to take it once a week when you could just take it every day/every other day?
> 
> That sounds like the best plan to me. If Ritalin + selegiline is synergistic then it'll probably beat amphetamines, all things considered.
> 
> You're worrying too much about amphetamine's minor neurotoxicity. Unless you're planning on using it almost daily in borderline recreational doses, then the damage you'll incur shouldn't be anything noticeable.


ya man...dude thanks alot for all the replies and stuff man. ya...Crazy med also told me i was worried to much about AMPH neurotoxicity....so, today i went to my doc, and suprisingly, i got Dexedrine+ Luvox. i did next to nothing.....it was amazing. i thought i would have to beg for it....but she was very happy to take me offa the Parnate....it was sweet though. I mention Dexedrine + SSRI, 5 minutes later i have a prescription for it....geez man, i think some supernatural entity is involved here.

the only thing that kinda sucks is the washout period...ive been offa Parnate for 1.4 weeks now...and i gotta wate another week or so i assume to be safe. i dunno what im gonna do during this week with only K-pin to keep me sane. but im not complaining, at least i have something awesome to look forward too.

I acutally have my ultra regimen (not my ultimate regimen)...i still cannot believe it. I got Luvox+Dexedrine from my doc, + Memantine and Agomelatine coming in via the Pelican Express. And i still have 40 days worth of Klonopin left.....add some DLPA to all this (i have this, but i don't know where my bottle of it is, but DLPA is awesome, i used to take 3-4 grams a day) and i will be totally high. or, i mean, functional and hopefully free from SA, OCD, and depression.


----------



## IllusionalFate

Vini Vidi Vici said:


> ya man...dude thanks alot for all the replies and stuff man. ya...Crazy med also told me i was worried to much about AMPH neurotoxicity....so, today i went to my doc, and suprisingly, i got Dexedrine+ Luvox. i did next to nothing.....it was amazing. i thought i would have to beg for it....but she was very happy to take me offa the Parnate....it was sweet though. I mention Dexedrine + SSRI, 5 minutes later i have a prescription for it....geez man, i think some supernatural entity is involved here.
> 
> the only thing that kinda sucks is the washout period...ive been offa Parnate for 1.4 weeks now...and i gotta wate another week or so i assume to be safe. i dunno what im gonna do during this week with only K-pin to keep me sane. but im not complaining, at least i have something awesome to look forward too.
> 
> I acutally have my ultra regimen (not my ultimate regimen)...i still cannot believe it. I got Luvox+Dexedrine from my doc, + Memantine and Agomelatine coming in via the Pelican Express. And i still have 40 days worth of Klonopin left.....add some DLPA to all this (i have this, but i don't know where my bottle of it is, but DLPA is awesome, i used to take 3-4 grams a day) and i will be totally high. or, i mean, functional and hopefully free from SA, OCD, and depression.


Awesome! :boogie That should be quite a cocktail.

Report back whenever you start the memantine, I'm considering ordering it but I'm holding off until I hear what you and crayzyMed think of it.

Keep in mind that Luvox inhibits CYP2D6, among other isozymes of CYP450, which is the enzyme responsible for metabolizing amphetamine. Definitely wait out that extra week before starting your new regimen, and whenever you start it begin with a low dose of Dexedrine as the effects (and likely duration as well) will be amplified from Luvox.


----------



## Vini Vidi Vici

IllusionalFate said:


> Awesome! :boogie That should be quite a cocktail.
> 
> Report back whenever you start the memantine, I'm considering ordering it but I'm holding off until I hear what you and crayzyMed think of it.
> 
> Keep in mind that Luvox inhibits CYP2D6, among other isozymes of CYP450, which is the enzyme responsible for metabolizing amphetamine. Definitely wait out that extra week before starting your new regimen, and whenever you start it begin with a low dose of Dexedrine as the effects (and likely duration as well) will be amplified from Luvox.


dude man i will report back for sure dude....and that was why i got the Luvox!! cuz of all the enzyme inhibition. not only would it potentiate amph (which i didnt know) but it might potentiate Memantine...but both of these pale in comparison to its abilty to potentiate Agomelatine. This one study, shows Fluvoxamine increases serum levels of Agomel. by 60-fold. dude. thats insane. I dunno how much fluvoxamine they are using...but dude, that will enable me to use much less Agomel, and not have to pay 60-120 bucks for 1 box of 28 tablets. think of 28 tabs x 60.....dude. that was pretty much why i got the Luvox...also cuz i need a low dose SSRI of course...


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## zendog78

I spent many years compulsivly researching pubmed and online database's, reading everything I could about SAD anxiety, the neurotransmitters involved. I am a registered nurse so I felt myself competent to experiment with all these novel treatments and you know where it got me? Nowhere.
There is a big temptation to self perscribe, doctor shop, import your onw meds from online pharmacies etc. But you need to bear in mind... a lot of the research you read has not been used in clinical practice, only in small trials, sometimes on animals, sometimes the are just hypothisis written by Phamacists with an interest in the subject.
After doing my own research I started medicating myself with Selegiline and ritalin several years ago before there was any mention of the combo on the net. Amazing effect for social anxiety..at first. But as I went on I became psychologically addicted to it. I was not better, I was high. Over time this combo made me act more and more erratically. It sent me into a mania. I was obsessed with designing and inventing stupid ****. I was a druggie.
Eventially I got off it when I was perscibed dexamphetamine (which totally took over my life but thats another story) but I have been left with dyslexia which I never had before. Aquired Dyslexia is related to brain damage.
When you start mixing up all these drugs you could be forming toxic metabolites that could cause all kinds of problems. Long term upregulation of certain areas of the brain.. is there any research carried out long term on these combo's? Hell, its not even there for the monotherapy of most of these drugs!

Also, many of these trials are run over short periods of time, are poorly constructed or flat out biased. Look at who is publishing the trial, anyone can get any crap saying anything onto pubmed.

As a Psych nurse of 10 years I can tell you now that Psychiatry is not a science. It is arbitrary and subjective.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/video/976/psychiatry_no_science_no_cures.html?cat=5

How would you like Alzheimer's or parkinsins disease at 45 years old? 
Could it happen? I don't know, but I know I had a cognitive biais to only read the research that had results that suited me and ignore what didn't. So if you are going to go down the road of designing your own custom medication regime make sure you include research like this..

*Neural degeneration following chronic stimulant abuse reveals a weak link in brain, fasciculus retroflexus, implying the loss of forebrain control circuitry*
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/neural-degeneration-following-chronic-stimulant-abuse-reveals-a-weak-link-in-brain-fasciculus-retroflexus-implying-the-loss-of-forebrain-control-circuitry

Whats the answer? I don't know. Psych meds can make a world of difference to people, hell, I take them. Just exerise caution and sceptisism and do what you need to do to get the most out of this life

Peace.


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## crayzyMed

Well, medline is no longer self prescribing and the last i heared from him he was on ritalin and sellegiline both prescribed by he's pdoc, he also hasnt been posting on here since last year. While i do agree that the original combo in he's OP has several issues.

First GHB induces neurotoxic damage in rodents by a excitoxic mechanism, while it can be debated wheter this occurs in humans (it has been in clinical use for a long time) combining it with a NMDA agonist like cyclosering is capable of severely potentiating the damage. 

D cyclosering has also been shown to accelerate ethanol tolerance, this in line with the evidence that nmda antagonist prevent benzo dependency suggests that a combo of it with a benzodiazepine would be asking for trouble.

Lots can be done with self medication, but lots of things can go wrong too.


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## mike8803

your never fully cured from SP, i dont know why the op started this thread.


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## bowlingpins

crayzyMed said:


> D cyclosering has also been shown to accelerate ethanol tolerance, this in line with the evidence that nmda antagonist prevent benzo dependency suggests that a combo of it with a benzodiazepine would be asking for trouble.


D-cycloserine could be used short term because it has been shown to reduce the number of exposure therapy sessions required to treat phobias.


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## crayzyMed

bowlingpins said:


> D-cycloserine could be used short term because it has been shown to reduce the number of exposure therapy sessions required to treat phobias.


It can be usefull yes if your going the therapy route, but it should never be combined with other addictive meds.


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## soaringfalcon11

mike8803 said:


> your never fully cured from SP, i dont know why the op started this thread.


i completely disagree and have evidence to support my claim. my SA used to be so bad i had no friends and ate lunch in the bathroom. now it's gone, i don't take drugs, and i have friends. i love being around people now, too. the process of being cured wasn't easy...but that doesn't matter to me now.

the point is, there is always hope. i know because i was once hopeless and suicidal.


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## CopadoMexicano

mike8803 said:


> your never fully cured from SP, i dont know why the op started this thread.


 I think the Op means social anxiety not social phobia. oh well


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## pixies

What is the difference between SA and SP?


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## CopadoMexicano

pixies said:


> What is the difference between SA and SP?


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anxiety

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anxiety_disorder


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## pixies

I can't really see a difference. And here in the UK the terms seem to be interchangeable. For example here:
http://www.social-anxiety.org.uk/
and here:
http://www.avonhypnotherapy.co.uk/socialphobia.htm


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## Medline

My life is real cool by now, but lately I'm having pretty strong SA again. I'm considering going back on drugs. The question is which? It would be great to hear opinions from crayzyMed and other experts.


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## crayzyMed

Are you considering using GBL again? What about stimulants? What do you think about your first regime? Would you go back on it?


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## TTB

Medline said:


> My life is real cool by now, but lately I'm having pretty strong SA again. I'm considering going back on drugs. The question is which? It would be great to hear opinions from crayzyMed and other experts.


Look I read your opening cocktail of meds that you took. It's madness to be honest. People should only require one med at the right dose and at the very very most two. But anymore you're doing as much damage to your brain as a Heroin addict.


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## JamieHasAnxiety

I believe that social phobia is a problem rooted with our feelings, not internal things. I feel that numbing my mind with meds, wouldn't be a cure at all. I can take Tylenol's for my headache, but when I stop taking them I still have a headache.

I managed to get over my own major social anxiety, without medication. Just pure thought modification, it wasn't easy, it was a long process.


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## crayzyMed

TTB said:


> Look I read your opening cocktail of meds that you took. It's madness to be honest. People should only require one med at the right dose and at the very very most two. But anymore you're doing as much damage to your brain as a Heroin addict.


This is nonense, ppl need as meds as they need, there's no maximum, it depends on your own brain chemistry.


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## crayzyMed

JamieHasAnxiety said:


> I believe that social phobia is a problem rooted with our feelings, not internal things. I feel that numbing my mind with meds, wouldn't be a cure at all. I can take Tylenol's for my headache, but when I stop taking them I still have a headache.
> 
> I managed to get over my own major social anxiety, without medication. Just pure thought modification, it wasn't easy, it was a long process.


This is higly personally dependent, building confidence, gaining social skills, exposure are essential things for recovery, but after those are done like in my case social anxiety isnt allways gone at all.

But there's no doubt that if there are confidence and internal bad feelings, those need to be taken care off.


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## metamorphosis

TTB said:


> Look I read your opening cocktail of meds that you took. It's madness to be honest. People should only require one med at the right dose and at the very very most two. But anymore you're doing as much damage to your brain as a Heroin addict.


To suggest that people with varying degrees of psychological illnesses should be fine with just taking one or two pills is ridiculous. Who is to judge the amount of meds. a suicidal or schizophrenic or borderline personality afflicted,or Sad sufferer, etc, person should take? It's an overly simplistic and very limited view towards some serious and complex illnesses.Illnesses that often lead to misery, loneliness, deaths, suicides, neglect- the list goes on. Many times these disorders are co-morbid and are interwoven in combinations that usually progress in severity, as people age.

Do some people and docs./pdocs. over medicate, yes. But to throw out a blanket statement and overgeneralizing about how many meds. people should need is totally unreasonable.


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## TTB

Well to be honest I think it's madness to take a cocktail of meds like that. You're guessing what Neurotransmitters are the problem, so in order to figure it out the doctor throws this guy out a load of meds to hit on them all. The doctor doesn't care.. look at the money he's making. The patient should take more control of this and get one at a time. 

Start with one thing....say something serotonin like an SSRI, if you don't need that get an NRI, then move on to a dopamine tablet, if that doesnt work out get something that hits GABA. It's only a matter of time before you hit on the Neurotransmitter thats causing the problem.

But to hit on everything is just guessing, and dangerous. You will hit on the Neurotransmitter that's causing the problem but you will also be hitting on neurotransmitters that are working perfectly.


----------



## metamorphosis

So your saying that no doctors in the world care. That it's all about the money for all of them. No sympathy, no empathy, no need to uphold the Hippocratic oath. Thats a sad way to look at it.

Agreed, psychiatry is an inexact science and there are great strides that need to be made. But let me just say, my friend was finally diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder along with bi-polar traits in his teens. If he hadn't have been hospitalized and stabilized with meds. There is no doubt in any-one's mind that he would have either killed himself or someone else. He was living in hell. Hearing voices that were telling him to do things. Believing in some sort of alien conspiracey that had to do with "the purple people". He thought that aliens had implanted a chip into his leg. It was scary to be around him.

He wouldn't have lived to see 20.I'm convinced. He's now in his 30's and has his paintings in galleries. He enjoys his life. And yes he does take more than 2 pills.


----------



## TTB

metamorphosis said:


> So your saying that no doctors in the world care. That it's all about the money for all of them. No sympathy, no empathy, no need to uphold the Hippocratic oath. Thats a sad way to look at it.
> 
> Agreed, psychiatry is an inexact science and there are great strides that need to be made. But let me just say, my friend was finally diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder along with bi-polar traits in his teens. If he hadn't have been hospitalized and stabilized with meds. There is no doubt in any-one's mind that he would have either killed himself or someone else. He was living in hell. Hearing voices that were telling him to do things. Believing in some sort of alien conspiracey that had to do with "the purple people". He thought that aliens had implanted a chip into his leg. It was scary to be around him.
> 
> He wouldn't have lived to see 20.I'm convinced. He's now in his 30's and has his paintings in galleries. He enjoys his life. And yes he does take more than 2 pills.


Yes it's all about money and greed, and the vast majority of doctors don't listen to patients, and they have massive EGO's. But if you think I'm going to suffer mistreatment from another doctor you can think again. You do NOT know my story, and if you did you'd know why I'm furious, and would actually agree with me. So I'd be greatful if you didn't look so negatively on my posts, you do not know the truth about my case. I'm so bloody upset all the time.


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## metamorphosis

I never said I knew your story. It doesn't sound like you had good psych/health care. I'm just expressing how I feel and what has happened in my life. We can kindly agree to disaree.


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## TTB

Well you were lucky and I wasn't. But I'm never going to stop fighting these people until i get better. I'll fight to the bitter end so I will. I want to die a lot.....but the hope and knowing that there's a medicine that will make me better keeps me alive.


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## daniel1989

I did it without medication, Oh yeah lol. That took years though.


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## Medline

Respect Daniel and Jamie!

I couldn't achieve that despite trying very hard. I had to rely on drugs and during the the last two-three years my life turned from a complete mess to simply awesome. I was a depressive, suicidal loner and now have a *fiancee*  a whole lot of friends, simply a LIFE.

@TTB: I was looking for expert opinions on drugs, not for a thread hijack and anti-psychiatry talk. You are on this board since two days and I'm here since years having helped a lot of people during this time. I don't know your story, we all don't. So please post in in your own thread.

@crayzyMed: You can handle GBL well, I can't. I thought about a combination of a potent stimulant, clonazepam and caroverine. From my experience it can effectively reverse tolerance to both stimulants and GABAergic drugs and it's much cheaper than memantine. Also no problems with side effects. There's an ultra-high dose i.v. preparation that is used for alcohol withdrawal and tinnitus and even this is said to be very benign. From time to time I will alternate clonazepam with desoxyphenobarbital. What do you think about that regimen?


----------



## Noca

I have to recommend Adderall XR myself, it has completely changed my life in terms of SA and I've tried most of the pharmacy. I have a large supply of Clonazepam but rarely need it. I'd rather take Adderall XR and do exposures to treat my SA permanently.


----------



## Medline

Adderall is very effective, but it's an illegal drug in my country. I thought about desoxypipradol again. Much more potent than amphetamine, much cheaper and not a controlled substance here. It's dangerous to handle, but there's an easy trick to dose it absolutely precisely.


----------



## Arisa1536

i do not think its stupid at all to be on that many drugs, if it means u can live a normal phobic free life then sign me up  
sounds good, although i have some questions about how to get those type of meds and what side effects the posses?
also how easy is it to get phenubit? i take it thats what u meant by pheno or is it something else entirely as i would like something to kill the withdrawals from zopiclone, Efexor and the clonazepam, even though i stopped them then started and stopped again i still get withdrawals


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## belfort

medline-why cant you handle Gbl?the side effects which i found to be almost non-existent besides drowsiness...Ghb or gbl are definitely the most helpful for my social disorder..not only knocks out the anxiety but provides the much needed drive and empathy needed for socializing..


----------



## crayzyMed

Medline said:


> @crayzyMed: You can handle GBL well, I can't. I thought about a combination of a potent stimulant, clonazepam and caroverine. From my experience it can effectively reverse tolerance to both stimulants and GABAergic drugs and it's much cheaper than memantine. Also no problems with side effects. There's an ultra-high dose i.v. preparation that is used for alcohol withdrawal and tinnitus and even this is said to be very benign. From time to time I will alternate clonazepam with desoxyphenobarbital. What do you think about that regimen?


We all have our problem drugs, i can handly GBL perfectly fine and after using it for so long i'm pretty sure it wont ever give me addiction trouble, however in my case its stimulants that are problematic, allways abuse amphetamine, however allready found some promising solutions for that, wich is good as amp is pretty much my most important med!

You have had succes with desoxypipradol before and also used conazepam succesfully in the past, its allways a good idea to stick with what worked before and the addition of caroverine is a excellent idea since its correct, nmda antagonists are damn effective for tolerance issues, id say its an excellent idea and am pretty sure this is gonna workout for you, keep us updated mate.


----------



## Medline

Arisa1536 said:


> ...sounds good, although i have some questions about how to get those type of meds and what side effects the posses?


I can get Klonopin, Phenobarbital and Caroverine with prescription, no problem. Desoxy (strong stimulant) is a "research chemical", so it's not possible to get it from any doctor, just online. One can buy all those drugs listed in the whole thread online in fact. I won't name any sources and I think that just people who can't get the drugs prescribed and know pharmacology well should order them over the internet.



Arisa1536 said:


> also how easy is it to get phenubit?


Very easy, it's not a prescription drug, just google for it. Don't take it regularly as tolerance builds up fast. Phenibut can help with benzo and zopiclone withdrawal.



Arisa1536 said:


> i take it thats what u meant by pheno or is it something else entirely as i would like something to kill the withdrawals from zopiclone, Efexor and the clonazepam, even though i stopped them then started and stopped again i still get withdrawals


Phenobarbital is a long acting barbiturate and a completely different drug. It kills very strong benzo withdrawal instantly. It's far less dangerous than short acting barbs, but just advisable for people who know such drugs well.



belfort said:


> medline-why cant you handle Gbl?the side effects which i found to be almost non-existent besides drowsiness...Ghb or gbl are definitely the most helpful for my social disorder..not only knocks out the anxiety but provides the much needed drive and empathy needed for socializing..


I agree GBL is one of the most effective drugs to alleviate SA temporarily. I can handle most drugs, but Gina leads me to a 24/7 addiction. Withdrawal from G is extremely hard.

@crayzyMed: One of the most effective drugs to help with stimulant cravings is low dose baclofen. Some say it reduces the high, but I never had that problem.


----------



## crayzyMed

Hey medline,

Caroverine has a very short half life, how many times a day and what doses did you need to use for tolerance reversal?

Thx.


----------



## Medline

It has to be taken 3 times a day. Of course brain levels / receptor activation of drugs can be significantly longer than 2-3 half-lifes. One capsule (20mg) thrice a day is enoug to reverse tolerance.


----------



## Arisa1536

thanks for that medline 
so you would not recommend Phenobarbital to anyone who is not familiar with barbiturates?
phenubit sounds good though  and u can buy it online i know but i wonder about the importation issues and if it will have any?


----------



## Paars

You could just skip the GBL all together and take Baclofen instead.


----------



## Medline

Arisa1536 said:


> thanks for that medline
> so you would not recommend Phenobarbital to anyone who is not familiar with barbiturates?


The person should at least know the basic facts about Pheno, the dos and don'ts. It's also a schedule IV controlled substance, so it's smarter to import Desoxyphenobarbital instead which is just a prescription drug and does the same job.



Arisa1536 said:


> phenubit sounds good though  and u can buy it online i know but i wonder about the importation issues and if it will have any?


No import problems at all, ordering from with the USA or where you live makes it absolutely safe.



Paars said:


> You could just skip the GBL all together and take Baclofen instead.


Baclofen feels nothing like GBL, but as they are cross-tolerant Baclofen is the perfect drug for GHB withdrawal, that's all. And I don't want to use GBL, my new regimen is posted on page 13.


----------



## metamorphosis

Medline said:


> I can get Klonopin, Phenobarbital and Caroverine with prescription, no problem. Desoxy (strong stimulant) is a "research chemical", so it's not possible to get it from any doctor, just online. One can buy all those drugs listed in the whole thread online in fact. I won't name any sources and I think that just people who can't get the drugs prescribed and know pharmacology well should order them over the internet.
> 
> Very easy, it's not a prescription drug, just google for it. Don't take it regularly as tolerance builds up fast. Phenibut can help with benzo and zopiclone withdrawal.
> 
> Phenobarbital is a long acting barbiturate and a completely different drug. It kills very strong benzo withdrawal instantly. It's far less dangerous than short acting barbs, but just advisable for people who know such drugs well.
> 
> I agree GBL is one of the most effective drugs to alleviate SA temporarily. I can handle most drugs, but Gina leads me to a 24/7 addiction. Withdrawal from G is extremely hard.
> 
> @crayzyMed: One of the most effective drugs to help with stimulant cravings is low dose baclofen. Some say it reduces the high, but I never had that problem.


Medline, when you mention low doses of Baclofen for stimulants. Are you talking about 10-40mgs over the course of the day?? Can you be more specific with that?


----------



## feelalone

Hi medline I read your actual regimen, and I'm very interested to know how to reverse tolerance to benzodiazepines like clonazepam. 
Now, to avoid tolerance, I take a benzo only 1 or 2 times a week, but I'd like to take a benzo 3 o 4 times a week, because they are very effective for my SA.
So, do you think that adding caroverine I could take a benzo also 3 or 4 a week without develop tolerance? and caroverine must be taken every day or it's possible to take it only the days that is taken the benzo?
And do you know another med that has similar effect to caroverine? (the site where I buy meds doesn't have caroverine, but has acamprosate).


----------



## Medline

metamorphosis said:


> Medline, when you mention low doses of Baclofen for stimulants. Are you talking about 10-40mgs over the course of the day?? Can you be more specific with that?


10mg three times a day is fine, one should start with 5-5-5 for some days. Side effects are negligible IMHO, especially when one takes stimulants. Keep in mind it will just help with craving, but likely do nothing for tolerance prevention.

@feelalone: In general you won't develop significant tolerance when using 1-2mg clonazepam 3-4 times a week, at least when you take one week off from time to time (e.g. when you don't have much social interaction). You likely won't get caroverine, but memantine or acamprosate are ok too. In this case you can use benzos 3 weeks on 1 week off. A cheap and easy to get add-on is acetylcysteine, a glutamate modulating agent.


----------



## broflovski

Medline said:


> From time to time I will alternate clonazepam with desoxyphenobarbital.


Here appear barbiturates! I have no stable benzo connection (just occasional diazepam that works well), but I've got used to take a phenobarbital-containing mixture before sleep. Barbiturates have reputation worse than benzo in respect of addiction, so I'm a kind embarrassed. But your experience shows that it is not that bad...


----------



## kokasit

Medline said:


> . A cheap and easy to get add-on is acetylcysteine, a glutamate modulating agent.


So do you think NAC can reverse benzo tolerance? i've read about glutamate-modulating agents being used for tolerance and I'm interested in trying it, because I can't no longer get high form xanax and other benzos; I used to feel very happy and deeply relaxed when I took them, now they just make me drowsy. I did try NAC a couple of times for my OCD, but it just gave me brain fog and I never used it consistently.


----------



## JohnG

Go for Dextromethorphan or Memantine. I had big results reversing my tolerance to Alprazolam using DXM.


----------



## Medline

broflovski said:


> Here appear barbiturates! I have no stable benzo connection (just occasional diazepam that works well), but I've got used to take a phenobarbital-containing mixture before sleep. Barbiturates have reputation worse than benzo in respect of addiction, so I'm a kind embarrassed. But your experience shows that it is not that bad...


I rotate benzos and phenobarbital, like two months 8mg clonazepam a day and then a two week benzo-break while I take an equivalent dose of phenobarbital. Therefore I have full anxiolytic effects and never experience withdrawal or strong tolerance. One can't take pheno everyday without physical addiction. In contrast to the very dangerous short-acting barbs pheno has very low abuse potential and is much much safer in overdose.



kokasit said:


> So do you think NAC can reverse benzo tolerance? i've read about glutamate-modulating agents being used for tolerance and I'm interested in trying it, because I can't no longer get high form xanax and other benzos; I used to feel very happy and deeply relaxed when I took them, now they just make me drowsy. I did try NAC a couple of times for my OCD, but it just gave me brain fog and I never used it consistently.


NAC helped me to reduce tolerance, I took 2g a day. Normally it has very few side effects. It's an extremely potent antioxidant as it's a glutatione precursor.

Yes, DXM is a good choice. Very easy to get.


----------



## belfort

med-with GBL, what made you start to take it 24/7??was it the physical adiction kicking in that made you keep dosing to ward off withdrawal, the cravings or was it simply that gbl worked and u kept wanting to take it?


----------



## crayzyMed

Medline said:


> @crayzyMed: One of the most effective drugs to help with stimulant cravings is low dose baclofen. Some say it reduces the high, but I never had that problem.


Thx for the tip.
If i try baclofen it would probably be one of the last things id try, have a bunch of other stuff i have an eye on first, the problem with baclofen is the dependency issue for me, i dislike meds i cant avoid dependency issues with, tough memantine may limit that with a ton, but then breaks my still be important and a anti craving medication should be taken 24/7, i also beleive that my issue also is related to impulsivity.

The following meds have been found effective in addiction, got quite a big list to chose from:

NAC
Ibogaine
Acamprosate
Memantine
Vigabatrin
Modafinil
Topiramate
Lobeline
Wellbutrin
Magnesium
DXM
Baclofen
Rimonabant
Naltrexone
Oxytocin
Clonidine
Tiagabin
Cholinergics
Kappa antagonists
Oxcarbazepine
Histaminergics

There's more.


----------



## crayzyMed

feelalone said:


> Hi medline I read your actual regimen, and I'm very interested to know how to reverse tolerance to benzodiazepines like clonazepam.
> Now, to avoid tolerance, I take a benzo only 1 or 2 times a week, but I'd like to take a benzo 3 o 4 times a week, because they are very effective for my SA.
> So, do you think that adding caroverine I could take a benzo also 3 or 4 a week without develop tolerance? and caroverine must be taken every day or it's possible to take it only the days that is taken the benzo?
> And do you know another med that has similar effect to caroverine? (the site where I buy meds doesn't have caroverine, but has acamprosate).


Memantine, DXM and acamprosate can work too.


----------



## crayzyMed

kokasit said:


> So do you think NAC can reverse benzo tolerance? i've read about glutamate-modulating agents being used for tolerance and I'm interested in trying it, because I can't no longer get high form xanax and other benzos; I used to feel very happy and deeply relaxed when I took them, now they just make me drowsy. I did try NAC a couple of times for my OCD, but it just gave me brain fog and I never used it consistently.


Never read any experiences on NAC, however memantine and DXM have reports regarding benzo tolerance reversal, for more information check this thread:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=501875


----------



## kokasit

Thanks guys. I have another question, does it also reverse tolerance to anti-depressants? I've just started Remeron and so far so good, but I've read that it has a reputation to poop out very quickly, so I want to be ready in case that happens.


----------



## Medline

belfort said:


> med-with GBL, what made you start to take it 24/7??was it the physical adiction kicking in that made you keep dosing to ward off withdrawal, the cravings or was it simply that gbl worked and u kept wanting to take it?


GHB was the first drug I used, I read it was "self-limiting" and not at all addictive. Therefore I took it too often, this results in sleep problems, one begins to take higher doses of G at night to help with this and there you go: 24/7 use.



crayzyMed said:


> If i try baclofen it would probably be one of the last things id try, have a bunch of other stuff i have an eye on first, the problem with baclofen is the dependency issue for me,


Taking it every day straight for months would lead to physical dependence, regular breaks e.g. every 4-6 weeks for 1 week are necessary. But your list looks great.



crayzyMed said:


> Never read any experiences on NAC


I'm first, yeah.  In combination with glutamate antagonists I found it helpful.



kokasit said:


> Thanks guys. I have another question, does it also reverse tolerance to anti-depressants? I've just started Remeron and so far so good, but I've read that it has a reputation to poop out very quickly, so I want to be ready in case that happens.


Never heard about that.


----------



## daniel83

Hi medline 

sorry, I couldn't read all the posts but do you still take moclobemid? and would you recommend it, Thank You


----------



## Medline

daniel83 said:


> sorry, I couldn't read all the posts


Who can? ^^



daniel83 said:


> you still take moclobemid? and would you recommend it, Thank You


Pretty much nobody on this board can recommend Moclobemide. It was just useful in the combination.


----------



## Rbk

Medline said:


> Pretty much nobody on this board can recommend Moclobemide.


It was long time ago but from what I remember it was not so bad for me


----------



## Medline

If it works for you great! It's important to know that Moclobemide should optimally be dosed higher than the usual dose, 900mg (300mg t.i.d) is good.

Of course you need a washout period from the paroxetine is you want to start with Moclobemide.


----------



## Raidiant

I am interested in trying desoxypipradol 

If I can get hold of it, what should I use it in conjuction with?

How did GBL differ from Desoxy from your experience?

Also did you experience an immediate reaction from selegiline, or did it take it a few weeks to kick in? Did you experience side effects initially which disappeared?

did you stay on ritalin + ssri + selgeline + benzo for the year you were gone? or did you rotate everything else you also used with success?

Would be much appreciated! Congrats on your new life!


----------



## Medline

Raidiant said:


> If I can get hold of it, what should I use it in conjuction with?


There are a lot of different possible drug combos. Of course using it in combination with strong stimulants is dangerous and makes few sense.



Raidiant said:


> How did GBL differ from Desoxy from your experience?


One being a downer and the other one a upper they are completely different.



Raidiant said:


> Also did you experience an immediate reaction from selegiline, or did it take it a few weeks to kick in? Did you experience side effects initially which disappeared?


Immediate reaction, I had no side effect



Raidiant said:


> did you stay on ritalin + ssri + selgeline + benzo for the year you were gone?


No


----------



## Medline

I got my clonazepam, caroverine and phenobarbital today from my Pdoc. :yes


----------



## crayzyMed

Awesome mate, keep us updated on this regime.


----------



## JayC123

I like your determination Medline, but watching this thread I can just see a rollercoaster of good months and bad months, and in the end your SA came back... I really hope you are cured of this awful illness, but im not sure meds are going to do this, seeing as you have been experimenting for MANY years. Ive have been trapped in this virtual/mental prison for many years, but I have found simple ways of improving by drinking **** loads of water everyday, exercising and just plain old exposure. The brain is pretty amazing piece of engineering, its keeps us going, but it can also hinder us with imaginary fear. The brain has an amazing ability to adapt and change all the time. A quote I like is "a man who crosses a river can never cross the same river twice, as the man isnt the same man, nor is the river the same river".

So for example if I put myself in some difficult situation (without meds) and I ignore the panics, my brain will soon change and adapt to cope with this situation. Now, if I choose to let my imaginary fear rule me, and I stay away from this "fear", my brain will slowly change and adapt to the solitary enviroment, snd become more and more confortable in that situation. Thats why people say the longer you choose not to fight your anxiety the harder it gets. Very true. You need to fight. Altering your brain chemicals is a very bad idea. Its not your chemicals you need to change, its your attitude. Once you begin the fight, your brain adapt accrodingly, and then my freind, you will be the one in control. 

At the moment you are not fighting, you are feeding your imaginary fear with drugs that are altering chemicals that dont need altering. If I took you sky diving, and after we jumped and landed, you didnt feel any excitment, nor adrenaline rush, i would be worried about you, and this would mean you have indeed a serious chemical imbalance. But if you said "MAN THAT AWESOME LETS DO IT MORE" your brain is normal. 


But the longer you play with your chemicals the harder it will become.


----------



## Raidiant

I can't agree with that more, I do think medline ultimately got a positive result out of the whole deal, and he probably hasn't posted the numerous happy times he would never have had without the meds, or the moments in his life which he would trade everything for because he HAD taken medication.

The problem with medication, is once you see the other side, its like this ****ing oasis you are trying to return to in a desert, and you've been in it, so you want to do anything to go back. When there is no comparison, you just somehow accept the anxiety as part of you, or even not realise how much its limited yourself.

Take it away and suddenly you no longer have to work to fight it, this is the cross roads I am at as well, when the medication wears off, even if you are just back to exactly how you were before, it never feels the same again, you now know how you are actually anxious all the time before, but was just swimming in your own water.


----------



## crayzyMed

> So for example if I put myself in some difficult situation (without meds) and I ignore the panics, my brain will soon change and adapt to cope with this situation. Now, if I choose to let my imaginary fear rule me, and I stay away from this "fear", my brain will slowly change and adapt to the solitary enviroment, snd become more and more confortable in that situation. Thats why people say the longer you choose not to fight your anxiety the harder it gets. Very true. You need to fight. Altering your brain chemicals is a very bad idea. Its not your chemicals you need to change, its your attitude. Once you begin the fight, your brain adapt accrodingly, and then my freind, you will be the one in control.


This depends, i used to go out daily with my friends for months, i pushed myself out constantly and while after a while i got "social wanting" i still kept feeling as uncomfortable around other situations, it depends what is causing the anxiety.

Now with pharmaceutical solutions, the sa itself is gone, but i still need chronic exposure to get the "social wanting" back.

You need exposure, social skills, confidence etc either way, but those arent enough for many people here.


----------



## belfort

its impossible to say whether medication is needed or not needed..each individual is different..its quite obvious though that in many cases therapy and exposure simply arent enough..sure, years of exposure might lessen the anxiety but if the person is still anxious to a large degree, imo that isnt worth a crap..you live life one time and you better make thge best of it...with meds or without meds..

btw, i can get all the social exposure in the world and this does not increase my 'social wanting' at all..in fact the more exposure i get, the less social wanting i feel if thats even possible..lol..

in my case meds are definitely needed but i have to believe that combining 20 different meds and constantly switching this for that isnt going to work long term..


----------



## crayzyMed

> s impossible to say whether medication is needed or not needed..each individual is different.


Exactly, no need to say more, it really depends i agree with that.


----------



## Medline

I had two great years while on drugs, 2 not so great months and now I take the combo that worked perfectly again. Desoxy will arive soon.


----------



## Raidiant

Medline can you pm me, I need some help but for whatever reason my send function isn't working properly.


----------



## Medline

It works fine, got three of your PMs.


----------



## Medline

Caroverine blocks AMPA-receptors and and at higher doses also acts as an NMDA-antagonist. Memantine is a stronger NMDA-blocker though. I've read ist acts synergistically with caroverine. So maybe I should combine them?

I've also come across riluzole, a very strong anti-glutamate drug which is available online. But it seems to cause lung toxicity so of course it's useless for me / us.


----------



## crayzyMed

That depends, arent you getting sufficient tolerance reversal with caroverine? Acamprosate also targets differend pathways that are involved in tolerance, theoretically by combining all 3 you should be pretty much tolerance proof.


----------



## Medline

It works fine, so I'll stay with it. I will likely increase the dose to 2-2-2 (150mg) for perfect results.


----------



## mark555666

Summer is coming, time for meds! 

Sounds like a solid med routine Medline 

I'll go with the following:

DAmphetamine 15mg twice daily
Niacin-amide 3000 mg (Up regulate GABA while it only mildly agonizes GABA A1)
Suntheanine - low dose, high doses destroy the stimulant effect (bring on those alpha waves!)
Memantine 10 mg 
Valerian root/taurine at night for sleep and funny dreams


----------



## Medline

Freesix88 said:


> DAmphetamine 15mg twice daily
> Niacin-amide 3000 mg (Up regulate GABA while it only mildly agonizes GABA A1)
> Suntheanine - low dose, high doses destroy the stimulant effect (bring on those alpha waves!)
> Memantine 10 mg
> Valerian root/taurine at night for sleep and funny dreams


Sounds like a nice benzo alternative regimen + strong stimulant. Taking phenibut from time to time might be an option. EPA/DHA and a good magnesium supplement too if you don't already take that.


----------



## JohnG

Can you provide some study about Niacin-amide and GABA upregulation ? I'm very interested in it.


----------



## princessdarkness

can you say which medicines contain the substances you are talking about?


----------



## Medline

http://www.seredyn.com/formula.html contains all of them, never tried it. Maybe buying them seperate from e.g. iHerb is better.

High doses of niacinamide stimulate benzodiazepine receptors.


----------



## mark555666

Lol never heard of that Seryden after looking it up its overpriced and it's very low dosed. I cant even see how much taurine theanine it has. I take 2grams of taurine at one shot. Like Medline mentioned buy it at iherb or so. If you are looking for all in one pill try _Theanine Serene with Relora_ (source naturals). Its excellent.


----------



## Medline

Received my Desoxy (very strong stimulant) today. An online friend told me a cool trick to measure it accurately: Dissolve 100mg in 100ml Everclear and now with a syringe one can easily take x mg. Nice to know for other potent substances too.


----------



## crayzyMed

Medline said:


> Received my Desoxy (very strong stimulant) today. An online friend told me a cool trick to measure it accurately: Dissolve 100mg in 100ml Everclear and now with a syringe one can easily take x mg. Nice to know for other potent substances too.


I measure all substances that way, even if the scale isnt very acurate if the ammount you disolve is big enough you will have a very precise ammount.


----------



## Medline

Desoxy improves my poker / multi-tabling skills for sure, 10 stacks up in 8 hours.


----------



## Arisa1536

Question, did u get all of these medications prescribed to you from a GP/Shrink?
Or did u have to obtain them? 

Selegiline was what my grandad was on as one of his many drugs in the old folks home but it seem to work for his dementia and he was atleast calm, happy and relaxed and this is what annoys me, unless u are old and have dementia doctors here would frown at me for even suggesting it, but one of its uses if specifically for Depression :mum


----------



## newboki

Medline said:


> Desoxy improves my poker / multi-tabling skills for sure, 10 stacks up in 8 hours.


You are funny. Imao,Imao


----------



## rezdog

I didnt read all 11 pages, but from what I see. You're saying, you found a mixture of pills or whatever that pretty much cure your anxiety 100%? Am I correct?

Well for me 20-30mg of valium 100% would cure my anxiety. Unfortunately your not curing it. Your covering it, numbing it. And your social Anxiety or going to be there when you stop using these substances. This thread title was so misleading and wrong...

I used years of seeing a great CBT therapist and throwing myself out there in public and situations that cause me extreme anxiety. And overtime it got better to the point where I hardly ever feel anxiety. I was once a kid who never ever talked. Now I maybe talk too much, and don't mind small talking with complete strangers.

Also, you can never 100% be cured. Every human in the world feels some sort of anxiety at some points in their lives. I feel anxious from time to time but I have learned how to mentally turn it around and stop it. 


But yea, you guys don't have to listen to anything I said in my post. 

But I spent 8 years with alcohol, benzos, and many other pills and substances I researched and bought online. They are not going to magically cure your anxiety. 

Your anxiety is caused by your thinking patterns. Only you can change that.. So goodluck!


----------



## Medline

rezdog said:


> I used years of seeing a great CBT therapist and throwing myself out there in public and situations that cause me extreme anxiety. And overtime it got better to the point where I hardly ever feel anxiety. I was once a kid who never ever talked. Now I maybe talk too much, and don't mind small talking with complete strangers.


I do believe in exposure (therapy), but without drugs I wouldn't have been able to go out and live a normal happy live. I've tried it without drugs and therapy (including CBT) for many years which just resulted in severe depression with permanent suicidal thoughts. And I was SO sick of it. Therefore I looked for other ways, including medication. After some early mistakes I got very good results with a couple of medications. I changed from an unhappy depressive, suicidal loner to a happy outgoing person with many friends and a girlfriend (now fiancee). I very much believe in exposure, but without drugs I wouldn't have been able to do it. I used a very low dose of cycloserine which in combination with exposure / CBT can give fast & great permanent results. Here is just one meta-analysis: http://www.healthemotions.org/symposium/set2.pdf - I had two very good and healthy years completely without drugs. Now I use them for a hopefully short peroid again. I see nothing wrong with that, they are not toxic to my body as extensive tests show and I'm fully functional.



rezdog said:


> Also, you can never 100% be cured. Every human in the world feels some sort of anxiety at some points in their lives.


Anxiety is not a disorder, but necessary for the human species in order to survive.



rezdog said:


> Your anxiety is caused by your thinking patterns. Only you can change that.. So goodluck!


Research shows that anxiety & depression have very much to do with genetics and neurotransmitter / brain function too.

You found you're way to being lucky, put hard work in it and you deserve it. I wish you all the best. My way is different, but I deserve being lucky too.


----------



## Medline

Arisa1536 said:


> Question, did u get all of these medications prescribed to you from a GP/Shrink?
> Or did u have to obtain them?
> 
> Selegiline was what my grandad was on as one of his many drugs in the old folks home but it seem to work for his dementia and he was atleast calm, happy and relaxed and this is what annoys me, unless u are old and have dementia doctors here would frown at me for even suggesting it, but one of its uses if specifically for Depression :mum


I have a very open-minded Pdoc so he prescribed me the clonazepam and the mysoline (desoxy- phenobarbital). I cycle those two to avoid significant tolerance & physical dependence. He also prescribed me caroverine which acts as an AMPA & NMDA antagonist and as an antioxidant. It helps to reduce or even reverse tolerance to benzos and stimulants, much like memantine which people here talk a lot about their positive experiences in many ways.

Downers (benzos and phenobarbital) help me to stay calm, but just in combination with stimulants I become prosocial. As we have only Ritalin in my country I use the research chemical Desoxypipradol which is more potent than Adderall, cheap and legal here. It can not be prescribed by any doctor in the world as it is not an approved drug. I think about taking low dose cycloserine again instead of caroverine. There exist theoretical reasons as to why one should likely not do this, but I had good experience with this in the past and that is what counts for me. It helped me to "hardwire" the positive results and I could stay drug-free for two years while still having no symptoms of SAD. You can google cycloserine +fear, especially in combination with exposure / CBT it seems to be very effective.

Selegiline is an approved drug for parkinson's disease and for depression (EMSAM patch). But don't expect too much from it. IMHO even in high doses it can't compare to Nardil & Parnate, it causes pretty much anxiety.

Hope that helps.


----------



## sublimejason

rezdog said:


> I didnt read all 11 pages, but from what I see. You're saying, you found a mixture of pills or whatever that pretty much cure your anxiety 100%? Am I correct?
> 
> Well for me 20-30mg of valium 100% would cure my anxiety. Unfortunately your not curing it. Your covering it, numbing it. And your social Anxiety or going to be there when you stop using these substances. This thread title was so misleading and wrong...
> 
> I used years of seeing a great CBT therapist and throwing myself out there in public and situations that cause me extreme anxiety. And overtime it got better to the point where I hardly ever feel anxiety. I was once a kid who never ever talked. Now I maybe talk too much, and don't mind small talking with complete strangers.
> 
> Also, you can never 100% be cured. Every human in the world feels some sort of anxiety at some points in their lives. I feel anxious from time to time but I have learned how to mentally turn it around and stop it.
> 
> But yea, you guys don't have to listen to anything I said in my post.
> 
> But I spent 8 years with alcohol, benzos, and many other pills and substances I researched and bought online. They are not going to magically cure your anxiety.
> 
> Your anxiety is caused by your thinking patterns. Only you can change that.. So goodluck!


You said it best rezdog. The social anxiety is part of our personalities. We can change by facing our fears over long amounts of time. I'm still stuck with the facing my fears part but I know thats how you get better, not by taking tons of meds.


----------



## Medline

Whatever works for someone I guess. Exposure (alone) and year-long therapy including CBT didn't help me, but left me suicidal. In the medication forum it will always be the case that people talk about pharmaceuticals. Telling fellow sufferers in this section of the big SAS community that facing their immense fears over long amounts of time was the only way to deal with SAD is not very productive IMHO. So let's discuss medication for social phobia in this subforum and different helpful ways to deal with it in the many other areas.

Welcome new at SAS btw.


----------



## Medline

I'll add one tandospirone 5mg capsule daily and strongly cut back on the benzos / phenobarbital.


----------



## crayzyMed

rezdog said:


> Your anxiety is caused by your thinking patterns. Only you can change that.. So goodluck!


This is wrong, anxiety can be caused by neurochemical problems, if you have thinking problems then confidence is at the root of your anxiety.


----------



## crayzyMed

> Also, you can never 100% be cured. Every human in the world feels some sort of anxiety at some


100% cured they mean that their anxiety is at the same level as every other human.


----------



## crayzyMed

> The social anxiety is part of our personalities. We can change by facing our fears over long amounts of time. I'm still stuck with the facing my fears part but I know thats how you get better, not by taking tons of meds.


This is wrong, i stayed in prison because of past mistakes for 7 months, 24/7 with 6 other guys and my anxiety didnt improve one bit, its completely dependent on the cause of your anxiety, you can NOT make generelisations regarding this.


----------



## rezdog

Sorry mate I came off the wrong way, even my therapist agrees that for some people drugs can help them along the path in getting better. If your way is working. Don't let anyone ruin it, and I'm glad you didnt let me ruin it in anyway


----------



## rezdog

crayzyMed said:


> This is wrong, i stayed in prison because of past mistakes for 7 months, 24/7 with 6 other guys and my anxiety didnt improve one bit, its completely dependent on the cause of your anxiety, you can NOT make generelisations regarding this.


You can face your fears and never change, but you have to force positive thoughts along with it. Even if the situation turns out negative, you say "oh well, not the end of the world. I will try sometime again". That's an example.

I've done more than a year in county jail total from age 17-20 for many underage drinking charges. And your right, my anxiety never approved being around those same people. But when I look back, I know that I kept thinking the same way, I was scared of these people, etc etc. I was all negative and not once tried to force myself to think positive, and tha maybe one or more of these guys/kids are just like me, and not monsters towards everyone else.


----------



## crayzyMed

A year in jail for underage drinking???? I was let free the first time selling xtc admitting i solled 1000.


----------



## Brightpaperwarewolf

crayzyMed said:


> A year in jail for underage drinking???? I was let free the first time selling xtc admitting i solled 1000.


Damn, 1 Ecstasy pill here is a felony. How US laws are so draconian.


----------



## Noca

Anyone know if Desoxypipradol is legal in Canada?


----------



## Arisa1536

crayzyMed said:


> A year in jail for underage drinking???? I was let free the first time selling xtc admitting i solled 1000.


Yeah i agree thats way over the top strict 

If they sent all the people who were drinking underage in this country to jail, they would have to send them overseas because there would not be enough room, its similar with drugs too, it usually results in community service or a large fine


----------



## Medline

rezdog said:


> You can face your fears and never change, but you have to force positive thoughts along with it. Even if the situation turns out negative, you say "oh well, not the end of the world. I will try sometime again". That's an example.


That's a very important point. I think people with SAD can sometimes act even very well in social situations, but they keep thinking "I behaved that strange" and fears continue or get worse.



rezdog said:


> I've done more than a year in county jail total from age 17-20 for many underage drinking charges.


If under-age persons in my country (in middle Europe) drink too much and the police finds them they are either brought home to their parents or to the hospital. Nothing more... even if it happens several times. Of course violence under influence is a different story.



rezdog said:


> And your right, my anxiety never approved being around those same people.


My anxiety would go through the roof in prison.

Some people with social phobia can get much better by facing their fears, when they also change their thought patterns and opinion about their performance in social situations. Some will need medication too, but of course they must also go under people as much as possible when feeling better.


----------



## Medline

Dr House said:


> Anyone know if Desoxypipradol is legal in Canada?


It's banned in the UK, but not considered illegal in most countries of the world until now. Pipradrol is a schedule IV drug in the US, but the analog act only applies to schedule I & II drugs. I'm pretty sure it's legal in Canada. But keep in mind that Desoxy can be pretty dangerous if one makes mistakes and as you already have Adderall XR I don't think it's necessary for you.


----------



## hanzsolo

Great thread 

What would be best to take with my adderall XR to reduce tolerance ?? My pdoc won't prescribe memantime yet but is researching it, anything else that may help ?? 

Also what would be best to reduce the anxiety and rebound that starts after 5-6 days on it?? Would Xanax be more effective? I don't find the 0.5mg of clon does much when the anxiety kicks in...

I live in Canada and have a pretty open minded pdoc.

Any help is much appreciated

Thanks


----------



## Medline

hanzsolo said:


> What would be best to take with my adderall XR to reduce tolerance ?? My pdoc won't prescribe memantime yet but is researching it, anything else that may help ??


Magnesium and low dose DXM as NMDA-antagonist are options. In general it helps to take a longer break every ~2 months from the stimulant for 10 days.



hanzsolo said:


> Also what would be best to reduce the anxiety and rebound that starts after 5-6 days on it?? Would Xanax be more effective? I don't find the 0.5mg of clon does much when the anxiety kicks in...


As alternating benzos with pregabalin like you do prevents tolerance to the clonazepam and eliminates the risk of physical dependence you can take more Klonopin on days with rebound anxiety. Some antihypertensives like carvedilol (combined alpha- & unselective beta blocker that crosses the blood-brain-barrier) are effective vs. stimulant anxiety.


----------



## hanzsolo

Thanks medline 

I originally wrote in the pragabalin thread but deleted it when I read this since you addressed my question re rotating lyrica with clon.. That's great that it prevents tolerance and addiction. So you don't think I need to give my GABA a rest every month or two with something non gabaergic??

I have tried magnesium in the past but it made me go to the washroom more, plus I have ulcerative colitis so need to avoid anything that causes that. Is there any form of magnesium that won't cause me to go?? And if yes, how many mg should I take per day in your opinion? Also where /how would I get DXM? I am hoping my pdoc will prescribe me memantime to try since my memory is so bad and it may help in other areas also (besides tolerance).. But am looking for other options in the meantime..

Great will speak to my pdoc about carvedilol and see what he thinks. Will also try using more clon if needed. Unfortunately the rebound anxiety starts pretty strong after 2weeks or so on stims (even taking 2 days off per week), although my morning dose always works well and then subsequent ones cause more anxiety plus some subsequent doses don't even work at all and just ramp up the anxiety big time. Also the effectiveness of the dose is shorter every day. Just to clarify, it could even be the second time release dose from my initial dose of adderall that causes me anxiety /rebound and doesn't work.. I had the same problems with vyvanse, ritalin, concerta.. The best by far is adderall though IMO. Ritalin is second but it burns out much too quickly and I really didn't like concerta or vyvanse. Haven't used much Dexedrine as of yet.

I guess since I'm not hyperactive and stimulants actually stimulate me somewhat, I burn out in a sense. Possibly dopamine depletion after my first dose ?? And if yes, any way to replenish dopamine at night with l-tyrosine or something?? This is so upsetting since the stims work so amazing for me (they totally eliminate my GAD, give me confidence, help me focus, and zero social anxiety ---- when they work properly). That is why I took a 2 week break recently, as they weren't working after my 1st dose and I had so much anxiety I needed to stop and make a new plan... 

Sorry for the long post, am really trying to get something working for me. I've had so much trial and error over the last 3 years with over 40 diff meds, everything you can think of.. I feel I am onto something with the stims, benzos, lyrica, etc and just need to tweak and manage it properly.. Thanks so much


----------



## dutchguy

I think this is the right thread to ask this question.
A couple of days ago I consumed a large amount of cola, after that I felt anxiety free. I felt almost drunk. 
Normally I don't drink anything with caffeine in it. So I thought it must be the caffeine. The next day I tried again, but It didn't do anything to me.

Was this coincidence our is this something to do with dopamine?. I read that caffeine increases serotonin and dopamine. Could it be that my dopamine was increased by the caffeine? and on day 2 it was depleted ?


----------



## Medline

hanzsolo said:


> So you don't think I need to give my GABA a rest every month or two with something non gabaergic??


A complete drug holiday for ~10 day every two months would be useful anyhow.



hanzsolo said:


> I have tried magnesium in the past but it made me go to the washroom more, plus I have ulcerative colitis so need to avoid anything that causes that. Is there any form of magnesium that won't cause me to go?


Magnesium glycinate is an improved and better absorbed form, therefore far less side effects like diarrhoea. Go for 400mg.



hanzsolo said:


> Also where /how would I get DXM?


It's in many OTC cough suppressants. You have to make sure that it contains just Dextromethorphan and not e.g. acetaminophen. 40mg / day sounds ok, but memantine would be a better option of course.



hanzsolo said:


> Great will speak to my pdoc about carvedilol and see what he thinks.


You can tell him you have puplic speaking fear (which is probably true anyway) and that you think it's a better choice than the standard drug Inderal (Propranolol) for you.

Remeber to take tyrosine or phenylalanine on an empty stomach and without other amino acids, otherwise it won't effectively cross the blood brain barrier.

Wesley aka crayzyMed is the expert for Adderall (crashes, tolerance, stimulant induced anxiety...), so hopefully he can give you some tips here.


----------



## Medline

@dutchguy: 

By blocking adenosine A1 receptors caffeine (like other stimulants) increases dopamine and glutamate levels in the nucleus accumbens. Sounds complicated, means just that one is more awake, active and - especially when not used to it's effect - somewhat high, talkactive, less afraid when the dose is not too high. The sugar is another thing that makes one feel good.

Tolerance kicks in fast when consuming large amounts of caffeinated beverages daily, but on day two you should still feel pretty good effects. I can't really explain it.


----------



## srschirm

How are you currently feeling, Medline?


----------



## Medline

Great, thanks!

I jogged for 2 hours in the morning, learned for an exam, met with friends and now I'll relax in the sun.


----------



## srschirm

Medline said:


> Great, thanks!
> 
> I jogged for 2 hours in the morning, learned for an exam, met with friends and now I'll relax in the sun.


My pleasure, that's great to hear. Are you still on that med combo you posted in the original post?


----------



## Medline

No, I was drug free and feeling fine for almost two years. Now I'm on my last combo again: A strong stimulant, Klonopin alternated with Phenobarbital to avoid physical dependence and a drug to slow down tolerance. I might add a new anxiolytic (tandospirone) to cut down on the benzodiazepine or remove it entirely from my regimen.


----------



## srschirm

Medline said:


> No, I was drug free and feeling fine for almost two years. Now I'm on my last combo again: A strong stimulant, Klonopin alternated with Phenobarbital to avoid physical dependence and a drug to slow down tolerance. I might add a new anxiolytic (tandospirone) to cut down on the benzodiazepine or remove it entirely from my regimen.


Damn, how do you acquire this? I'm on 1mg of Klonopin myself.


----------



## Medline

Most meds I get from my Pdoc, some things I have to buy online.


----------



## srschirm

Medline said:


> Most meds I get from my Pdoc, some things I have to buy online.


Power to you man.


----------



## hanzsolo

Would the inderal work for the anxiety from the stims also? Assuming I even need it....

The prob with lyrica is that it's partly stimulating for the 7 days that I use it - very different from clon, hard to explain. Not that i dont like it, its an interesting med, but its not really calming per say... I hear mixed things. Some say that the anxyliotic effects don't last long, others that it takes one week for the side effects (stimulation etc) to go away and the calming to kick in.. Any feedback here ?? I'm not sure that 7 days each is the proper rotation, or that lyrica is even the right med to be alternating with..

Would seroquel 25-100mg be ok for sleep?? Or is 100 too high? Just wondering cuz my pdoc said that it usually requires 75-100 to be effective. And I don't want to interfere with stims etc..

On the positive, I got the Clonazepam 1mg bid if needed, along with propranalol and seroquel to possibly test in my regime. Am still waiting on memantime..

Thanks


----------



## Medline

Yes, Inderal helps, but as you take 2mg clonazepam daily now this will also calm you down.

Some prefer gabapentin over pregabalin, maybe that's right for you. 

I'm not a fan of antipsychotics for sleep. You could try trazodone, mirtazapine or a sedating TCA instead.


----------



## hanzsolo

Thanks so much medline


----------



## hanzsolo

I would much rather use a TCA, mirtazapine or something else for sleep ( I have elavil, mirtazapine, and others here in stock), but whenever I take something that affects seratonin, my RLS acts up. 
I don't like Trazodone at all, it leaves me feeling very off (but really gets me in the mood which my wife loves :boogie
And I'm not crazy about using a Z drug like Zopiclone to sleep every night since it's like a benzo as far as I know. 
Any other suggestions ?? Am not sure there's anything left lol..

Tks


----------



## Medline

Seroquel mainly acts as an (expensive) strong antihistamine at that doses and is likely ok. Low doses of sedating TCAs like doxepin shouldn't significantly raise your serotonin levels.


----------



## hanzsolo

Hey medline,

Am going to see my pdoc tomorrow and want to propose something to use every 3-4 weeks for 7 days to clean the Clonazepam out of my system and reduce potential tolerance and addiction issues.. 

We already concluded that he won't prescribe phenobarbitol, so this is a list I came up with from you and others;

- tiagabine
- tramadol
- hydroxizine
- clonidine

Which do you think would have the smoothest transition from the clon and eliminate most if not all withdrawal symptoms from the clon (provided there are any??)
And which do you think my pdoc may realistically prescribe ??

Your input would be much appreciated, along with any info I may be able to pass along to him so I can explain why I chose the above mentioned meds. 

Thanks


----------



## Medline

Valproic acid acting as a GABA transaminase inhibitor is very useful for milder forms of benzodiazepine withdrawal. In can be combined with tiagabine (a GABA reuptake inhibitor). Every six weeks for 10-14 days because of clonazepam's long half-life.

Tell your Pdoc by increasing GABA levels those drugs eliminate milder forms of benzodiazepine W/D symptoms. There exist clinical trials showing that Depakote (50:50 sodium valproate and valproic acid) is effective for mild-moderate alcohol withdrawal.


----------



## JohnG

Pregabalin also can be effective in benzos withdrawn.

hey medline, what about desoxypripradol? How your experimentation is going on?


----------



## Medline

Pregabalin is a good choice in general, but for hanzsolo it works activating. 

Everything seems fine with my regimen (desoxy, clonazepam, caroverine, carvedilol). At the beginning I took a little bit too much desoxy and was somewhat hyper. Lowering the dose + adding carvedilol helped.


----------



## hanzsolo

Thanks for the suggestion john, pregabalin used to work for me 3-7 days a week (albeit partly stimulating but nice and acceptable).. Unfortunately now it just makes me spacey and anxious, no idea why. Maybe it needs to be taken regularly to work properly?? Strange one there...

Thanks for the advice medline, I'll keep you posted on the appt with my pdoc.. Am happy to hear alls well with your regime 

Have a good one



Medline said:


> Pregabalin is a good choice in general, but for hanzsolo it works activating.
> 
> Everything seems fine with my regimen (desoxy, clonazepam, caroverine, carvedilol). At the beginning I took a little bit too much desoxy and was somewhat hyper. Lowering the dose + adding carvedilol helped.


----------



## hanzsolo

Any idea why I sometimes get dazed, anxious and frazzled (for lack of a better word) when my first dose of adderall wears off (usually around 11am) ??? 

I know the clonazepam can help the anxiety, but it doesn't seem to fix the brain fog, disoriented and dazed feeling. And usually, subsequent doses throughout the day are hit or miss as well. 

Is it because I am low in dopamine after my first dose ? Could it be rebound ? Would a higher dose possibly help or make things worse ??

Any idea what may be causing this, and more importantly, how to fix it ???

Thanks


----------



## Medline

Memantine could help with that and tolerance development too.


----------



## vdenich

Does this regimen kill your sex drive. I'm married and our sex life is important to us.


----------



## crayzyMed

vdenich said:


> Does this regimen kill your sex drive. I'm married and our sex life is important to us.


I would gues with desoxy its prosexual, but i'l let medline give you a definate answer.


----------



## Medline

No, it doesn't kill my sex drive.  As crayzyMed said, desoxy is in fact prosexual.


----------



## crayzyMed

Hey medline, can you explain your dosing regime of baclofen with stimulants, as for me and someone else the first day it synergizes and then it started to inhibit the stims? how often a day did you take it and before or after the stim kicked in? and what doses?


----------



## Medline

I mainly used it at night to come down and sleep, 25-50mg.


----------



## crayzyMed

Medline said:


> I mainly used it at night to come down and sleep, 25-50mg.


Did you notice any effects of baclofen the next day? as it appears to be quite long lasting, one morning dose lasts all day despite its half life.


----------



## broflovski

Btw, baclofen is often reported to be pro-sexual (especially stimulating libido, that may be of interest in respect of SSRI-augmentation). I personally felt some sexual boost with it. I gave up my semi-recreational low-dose baclofen due to 'ideological' concern (it seemed too off-label), and I shifted to close and more clear option as phenibut, but its effect wanes. 
Seeing you guys discussing and successfully using baclofen, I'm near to changing my mind. It'd be interesting to see, how it goes along with my regimen.


----------



## broflovski

And some relevant piece of speculation:


broflovski said:


> I've looked a little more and found some studies (this particular is old but the most direct) showing inhibitory action of baclofen on GABA-release, because GABA-B receptors are primarily autoreceptors. Activation of them suppress GABA-release, that, depending of the brain area, may, for example, disinhibit dopamine release in VTA in opioid-like manner (just a guess, but may explain baclofen-induced euphoria).
> I wonder if recent evidence on low-dose phenibut usage for asthenia/depression is based on the same mechanism of GABA-B autoreceptor activation.


----------



## Medline

crayzyMed said:


> Did you notice any effects of baclofen the next day? as it appears to be quite long lasting, one morning dose lasts all day despite its half life.


No, but keep in mind that I've a huge tolerance for all GABAergic drugs and have used up to 400mg baclofen daily in the past to suppress alcohol cravings.

@broflovski: Interesting study!


----------



## ugh1979

crayzyMed said:


> Did you notice any effects of baclofen the next day? as it appears to be quite long lasting, one morning dose lasts all day despite its half life.


I'm going to try Baclofen this weekend for the first time after using Phenibut weekly for the last 9 months. Phenibut is very long lasting for me and i'm hoping Baclofen is the same . I can take Phenibut first thing in the morning and can feel it the strongest up to *10 hours* later!


----------



## crayzyMed

Yeah but the tolerance problems with phenibut are a terrible problem, baclofen has a normal tolerance pattern like GBL or other substances and would be better, one pill of 50mg in the morning lasted me all day.


----------



## crayzyMed

broflovski said:


> And some relevant piece of speculation:


Hmm it seems that baclofen either:

- Makes people feel worse like it does for me the first time (anti dopaminergic)
- Is recreational
- Works bad on its own but works excellent in combination with amphetamine
- Same thing but after a few days it completely inhibits amphetamine, like what happened to me and zodiac

Any idea's guys? id like to figure this out, i'm sure we will.


----------



## crayzyMed

> Patients generally reported decreased cocaine craving and reduction in cocaine use, which was verified by urinalysis. Urine samples negative for cocaine for the ten patients ranged from 0% to 98%, with an average of 60.8%. Continuous cocaine abstinence averaged 4.8 weeks (range = 0-14 wks) and treatment length for the group averaged 10.3 weeks (range = 1-17 wks). Nine patients used cocaine at least once during treatment, but none reported lasting or deleterious effects attributable to cocaine/baclofen interaction. *Of the four patients who were asked, none experienced any subjective differences in their cocaine "highs" while taking baclofen.*





> Synapse. 2003 Oct;50(1):1-6.
> Baclofen antagonizes nicotine-, cocaine-, and morphine-induced dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens of rat.
> Fadda P, Scherma M, Fresu A, Collu M, Fratta W.
> 
> B.B.Brodie Department of Neuroscience, University of Cagliari, 09042 Monserrato, Cagliari, Italy. [email protected]
> Abstract
> Evidence recently provided has suggested a specific involvement of the GABAergic system in modulating positive reinforcing properties of several drugs of abuse through an action on mesolimbic dopaminergic neurons. The GABA( receptor agonist baclofen has been proposed as a potential therapeutic agent for the clinical treatment of several forms of drug addiction. In the present study, using the in vivo microdialysis technique, we investigated the effect of baclofen on nicotine, cocaine, and morphine-induced increase in extracellular dopamine (DA) levels in the shell of the nucleus accumbens, a brain area supposedly involved in the modulation of the central effects of several drugs of abuse, of freely moving rats. As expected, nicotine (0.6 mg/kg s.c.), morphine (5 mg/kg s.c.), and cocaine (7.5 mg/kg i.p.) administration in rats induced a marked increase in extracellular DA concentrations in the nucleus accumbens, reaching a maximum value of +205 +/- 8.4%, +300 +/- 22.2%, and +370 +/- 30.7%, respectively. Pretreatment with baclofen (1.25 and 2.5 mg/kg i.p.) dose-dependently reduced the nicotine-, morphine-, and cocaine-evoked DA release in the shell of the nucleus accumbens. Furthermore, baclofen alone did not elicit changes in basal DA extracellular levels up to 180 min. Taken together, our data are in line with previous reports demonstrating the ability of baclofen to modulate the mesolimbic DAergic transmission and indicate baclofen as a putative candidate in the pharmacotherapy of polydrug abuse.


While phenibut stimulates dopamine release, we should be able to figure this out, any data on how phenibut stimulates dopamine release? If we can figure that out we can apply this to baclofen for those that get negative effects.


----------



## crayzyMed

Couple study's, well figure it out.


> Modulation of resting brain cerebral blood flow by the GABA B agonist, baclofen: A longitudinal perfusion fMRI study.
> Franklin TR, Wang Z, Sciortino N, Harper D, Li Y, Hakun J, Kildea S, Kampman K, Ehrman R, Detre JA, O'Brien CP, Childress AR.
> 
> Department of Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA, USA.
> Abstract
> BACKGROUND: Preclinical studies confirm that the GABA B agonist, baclofen blocks dopamine release in the reward-responsive ventral striatum (VS) and medial prefrontal cortex, and consequently, blocks drug motivated behavior. Its mechanism in humans is unknown. Here, we used continuous arterial spin labeled (CASL) perfusion fMRI to examine baclofen's effects on blood flow in the human brain.
> 
> METHODS: Twenty-one subjects (all smokers, 12 females) were randomized to receive either baclofen (80mg/day; N=10) or placebo (N=11). A five minute quantitative perfusion fMRI resting baseline (RB) scan was acquired at two time points; prior to the dosing regimen (Time 1) and on the last day of 21 days of drug administration (Time 2). SPM2 was employed to compare changes in RB from Time 1 to 2.
> 
> RESULTS: Baclofen diminished cerebral blood flow (CBF) in the VS and mOFC and increased it in the lateral OFC, a region involved in suppressing previously rewarded behavior. CBF in bilateral insula was also blunted by baclofen (T values ranged from -11.29 to 15.3 at p=0.001, 20 contiguous voxels). CBF at Time 2 was unchanged in placebo subjects. There were no differences between groups in side effects or cigarettes smoked per day (at either time point).
> 
> CONCLUSIONS: Baclofen's modulatory actions on regions involved in motivated behavior in humans are reflected in the resting state and provide insight into the underlying mechanism behind its potential to block drug-motivated behavior, in preclinical studies, and its putative effectiveness as an anti-craving/anti-relapse agent in humans.
> 
> Copyright © 2011 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.





> Eur J Pharmacol. 2010 Dec 15;649(1-3):161-7. Epub 2010 Sep 19.
> GABA(B) receptors modulate depolarization-stimulated [³H]glutamate release in slices of the pars reticulata of the rat substantia *****.
> Cortés H, Paz F, Erlij D, Aceves J, Florán B.
> 
> Departamento de Farmacología, Centro de Investigación y de Estudios Avanzados del Instituto Politécnio Nacional, Apartado 14-740, México D.F., México.
> Abstract
> GABA(B) receptors decrease the release of GABA from the striatal terminals within the pars reticulata of the substantia ***** by opposing the increase in the release caused by dopamine D₁ receptors. The dopamine D₁ receptors also increase the release of glutamate from subthalamic terminals in the pars reticulata. Because GABA(B) receptors decrease the glutamate release from these terminals, we have explored if the effect of GABA(B) receptors also opposed the effect of the dopamine D₁ receptors. The effect of baclofen, a selective GABA(B)-receptor agonist, was tested on the release of [³H]glutamate caused by highly (40 mM) concentrated K(+) solutions in slices of the pars reticulata. Baclofen decreased (the concentration causing 50% inhibition, IC₅₀, was 8.15 μM) the increase in the release of the [³H]glutamate caused by the dopamine D₁ receptors and it also decreased (IC₅₀ was 0.51 μM) this release in the absence of the activation of the dopamine D₁ receptors. The GABA(B) receptors appear then to inhibit glutamate release in two ways; one dependent on the activation of the dopamine D₁ receptors and the other independent of such activation. The protein kinase A-inhibitor H89 blocked the increase in the release of the [³H]glutamate caused by the dopamine D₁ receptors, though it did not block the dopamine D₁ receptor-independent baclofen inhibition of the release. This finding indicates that this inhibition was not via the protein kinase A signal-transduction pathway. N-ethylmaleimide, an alkylating agent that inactivates pertussis toxin-sensitive Gi proteins, eliminated both the dopamine D₁ receptor-dependent and -independent baclofen inhibition, showing that both were mediated by these proteins. The injection of baclofen into the pars reticulata of unanesthetized rats caused contralateral rotation, suggesting a reduced glutamate release from the subthalamic terminals, thereby stopping the inhibition of the premotor thalamic nuclei, causing locomotion. Our data suggest that GABA(B) receptors restrain the excitatory input from the subthalamic nucleus and stimulate motor behavior.





> Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2010 Mar;208(4):545-54.
> The GABAB receptor agonist baclofen administered into the median and dorsal raphe nuclei is rewarding as shown by intracranial self-administration and conditioned place preference in rats.
> Shin R, Ikemoto S.
> 
> Behavioral Neuroscience Branch, Intramural Research Program, Department of Health and Human Services, National Institute on Drug Abuse, National Institutes of Health, 251 Bayview Blvd, Suite 200, Baltimore, MD 21224, USA.
> Abstract
> RATIONALE: The midbrain raphe regions have long been implicated in affective processes and disorders. There is increasing evidence to suggest that the median (MR) and dorsal raphe nuclei (DR) tonically inhibit reward-related processes.
> 
> OBJECTIVES: Stimulation of GABAB receptors in the midbrain raphe nuclei is known to inhibit local neurons, especially serotonergic neurons. We sought to determine if injections of the GABAB receptor agonist baclofen into the MR or DR are rewarding, using intracranial self-administration and conditioned place preference.
> 
> RESULTS: Rats quickly learned to lever press for infusions of baclofen (0.1-2.5 mM) into the MR, but not the ventral tegmental area or central linear nucleus. Rats increased lever pressing associated with intra-DR baclofen infusions, but not readily. Baclofen self-administration into the MR or DR was attenuated by coadministration of the GABAB receptor antagonist SCH 50911 (1 mM) or systemic pretreatment with the dopamine receptor antagonist SCH 23390 (0.025 mg/kg, i.p.). In addition, intra-DR and intra-MR injections of baclofen induced conditioned place preference; injection into DR was more effective.
> 
> CONCLUSIONS: Baclofen injections into the midbrain raphe nuclei are rewarding. Baclofen was more readily self-administered into the MR than into the DR, while baclofen injections into the DR more readily induced conditioned place preference than those into the MR. These sites may be differentially involved in aspects of reward. These findings suggest that MR or DR neurons containing GABAB receptors are involved in tonic inhibitory control over reward processes.





> Neuropharmacology. 2009 Apr;56(5):915-21. Epub 2009 Feb 6.
> GABAB/NMDA receptor interaction in the regulation of extracellular dopamine levels in rodent prefrontal cortex and striatum.
> Balla A, Nattini ME, Sershen H, Lajtha A, Dunlop DS, Javitt DC.
> 
> Nathan Kline Institute for Psychiatric Research, Orangeburg, NY 10962, USA.
> Abstract
> Deficits in N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor (NMDAR)-mediated neurotransmission may underlie dopaminergic hyperactivity in schizophrenia. Dysregulation of the GABAergic system has also been implicated. In this study we investigated a role for GABA(B) receptors as an intermediate step in the pathway leading from NMDAR stimulation to DA regulation. Since glycine (GLY) has been found to ameliorate treatment resistant negative symptoms in schizophrenia, we treated a group of rats with 16% GLY food for 2 weeks. DA levels in prefrontal cortex (PFC) and striatum (STR) were assessed by dual-probe microdialysis and HPLC-EC in freely moving rats. Infusion of the GABA(B) receptor agonists SKF97541 and baclofen into PFC and STR significantly reduced basal DA, an effect that was reversed by the antagonist, CGP52432. In PFC, GABA(B) agonists also reduced AMPH-induced DA release following treatment with either 1 or 5 mg/kg AMPH. Similar effects were seen following subchronic glycine treatment in the absence, but not presence of CGP52432 during 5 mg/kg AMPH treatment. In STR SKF97541 decreased only the 1 mg/kg AMPH-induced DA release. Subchronic GLY treatment in STR leads to a significant reduction in basal DA levels, but did not affect AMPH (5 mg/kg)-induced release. Our findings support a model in which NMDA/glycine-site agonists modulate DA release in part through presynaptic GABA(B) receptors on DA terminals, with both GABA(B) ligands and GLY significantly modulating AMPH-induced DA release. Both sites, therefore, may represent appropriate targets for drug development in schizophrenia and substance abuse disorders.


----------



## crayzyMed

This is simular to the memantine baclofen combo:


> Psychiatry Res. 2007 Aug 30;152(2-3):205-10. Epub 2007 Apr 20.
> Subjective and cardiovascular effects of cocaine during treatment with amantadine and baclofen in combination.
> Rotheram-Fuller E, De La Garza R 2nd, Mahoney JJ 3rd, Shoptaw S, Newton TF.
> 
> UCLA Department of Family Medicine, 10880 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1800, Los Angeles, CA 90024, USA. [email protected]
> Abstract
> This study assessed the subjective and cardiovascular effects of relevant doses of cocaine administration during steady-state treatment of the combination of amantadine and baclofen compared to placebo. Participants included 8 healthy, male, cocaine-dependent, non-treatment-seeking individuals (age=36.6+/-5.9; 75% African American, 25% Caucasian; using cocaine for an average of 15.3+/-6.5 years). Data were collected prior to and following double-blind intravenous administration of 0 mg, 20 mg, and 40 mg of cocaine. Data were collected at baseline, following 5 days of treatment with placebo, and again following 5 days of treatment with a combination of amantadine 100 mg t.i.d. and baclofen 30 mg t.i.d. counterbalanced for order of medication and placebo in a cross-over design. Results showed no significant alterations to cardiovascular variables (heart rate, systolic and diastolic blood pressure) from treatment using combination medication or placebo in the presence of cocaine. Self-rated "desire" for cocaine was significantly lower during cocaine administrations while participants were receiving treatment with amantadine-baclofen compared to infusions while taking placebo medication, although there was no difference in the intensity of cocaine-induced euphoria, or reduction in the likelihood to use cocaine if given access. Study findings support the safety of the amantadine-baclofen combination treatment for cocaine dependence.


----------



## ugh1979

crayzyMed said:


> Yeah but the tolerance problems with phenibut are a terrible problem, baclofen has a normal tolerance pattern like GBL or other substances and would be better, one pill of 50mg in the morning lasted me all day.


I'm not sure the tolerance problems with Baclofen are any different to Phenibuts from what I've read. I've used Phenibut once a week (2 consecutive days out of 7) for the last 9 months and haven't noticed any tolerance issues. I still just take the same dose I always did. (2g/day)


----------



## crayzyMed

Im talking about daily use.


----------



## ugh1979

crayzyMed said:


> Im talking about daily use.


So was I, but I was mentioning about how not to get a tolerance to Phenibut, which I think will be the same with Baclofen. Daily use of either will bring big tolerance problems as far as I know, but I've read mixed reports with regards to Baclofen.

Baclofen is a pCL derivative of Phenibut.


----------



## hanzsolo

ugh1979 said:


> So was I, but I was mentioning about how not to get a tolerance to Phenibut, which I think will be the same with Baclofen. Daily use of either will bring big tolerance problems as far as I know, but I've read mixed reports with regards to Baclofen.
> 
> Baclofen is a pCL derivative of Phenibut.


So can I test phenibut 1-2 days per week ?? 
And if yes, what dosage is recommended (am I allowed to ask that) ??

Thanks


----------



## ugh1979

hanzsolo said:


> So can I test phenibut 1-2 days per week ??
> And if yes, what dosage is recommended (am I allowed to ask that) ??
> 
> Thanks


I'd say so yes. I've not heard of anyone having a problem when sticking to that. However, make the days consecutive if possible so you get 5 wash out days in between. Anything less is a risk IMO. I've made the mistake of taking it 3 or 4 days in a row twice in the last 9 months and really regretted it as it gave me a horrible withdrawal after it.

2g/day works for me as it lasts about 10 hours. Note it takes about 2 hours for the effects to become noticeable.


----------



## hanzsolo

ugh1979 said:


> I'd say so yes. I've not heard of anyone having a problem when sticking to that. However, make the days consecutive if possible so you get 5 wash out days in between. Anything less is a risk IMO. I've made the mistake of taking it 3 or 4 days in a row twice in the last 9 months and really regretted it as it gave me a horrible withdrawal after it.
> 
> 2g/day works for me as it lasts about 10 hours. Note it takes about 2 hours for the effects to become noticeable.


Sounds good will give that a try...
Since its my first time trying it, I'll prob start with 500mg or 1 gram and make sure all is ok.. Dont wanna be falling asleep at the wheel with my family :b
And ya will do 1-2 days max
10 hours, damnnnnnnn 
Thanks


----------



## crayzyMed

ugh1979 said:


> So was I, but I was mentioning about how not to get a tolerance to Phenibut, which I think will be the same with Baclofen. Daily use of either will bring big tolerance problems as far as I know, but I've read mixed reports with regards to Baclofen.
> 
> Baclofen is a pCL derivative of Phenibut.


I disagree that phenibut is comparable to baclofen, baclofen tolerance goes up slowly and many ppl use it for years, you cant say the same for phenibut, except ppl that want to avoid withdrawals that are like ghb withdrawals:sus


----------



## ugh1979

crayzyMed said:


> I disagree that phenibut is comparable to baclofen, baclofen tolerance goes up slowly and many ppl use it for years, you cant say the same for phenibut, except ppl that want to avoid withdrawals that are like ghb withdrawals:sus


Maybe not with regards to tolerance, but for withdrawals/addiction due to daily use, I have read many reports of.


----------



## crayzyMed

Yes baclofen withdrawals are bad agreed, im just wondering wheter memantine would prevent phenibut tolerance and make it suitable to use it daily so i will try it myself.


----------



## crayzyMed

Looks like the baclofen problem is simply caused by bloodlevels building up, 50mg would be a perfect dose on day one, but on day two youd have 60mg in your system because of the half life and suddenly get opposite effects wich me and zodiac experienced.


> Nat Neurosci. 2004 Feb;7(2):153-9. Epub 2004 Jan 25.
> Bi-directional effects of GABA(B) receptor agonists on the mesolimbic dopamine system.
> Cruz HG, Ivanova T, Lunn ML, Stoffel M, Slesinger PA, Lüscher C.
> 
> Department of Basic Neurosciences, University of Geneva, 1 Michel Servet, CH-1211 Geneva 4, Switzerland.
> Abstract
> The rewarding effect of drugs of abuse is mediated by activation of the mesolimbic dopamine system, which is inhibited by putative anti-craving compounds. Interestingly, different GABA(B) receptor agonists can exert similarly opposing effects on the reward pathway, but the cellular mechanisms involved are unknown. Here we found that the coupling efficacy (EC(50)) of G-protein-gated inwardly rectifying potassium (GIRK, Kir3) channels to GABA(B) receptor was much lower in dopamine neurons than in GABA neurons of the ventral tegmental area (VTA), depending on the differential expression of GIRK subunits. Consequently, in rodent VTA slices, a low concentration of the canonical agonist baclofen caused increased activity, whereas higher doses eventually inhibited dopamine neurons. At behaviorally relevant dosages, baclofen activated GIRK channels in both cell types, but the drug of abuse gamma-hydroxy-butyric acid (GHB) activated GIRK channels only in GABAergic neurons. Thus GABA(B) receptor agonists exert parallel cellular and behavioral effects due to the cell-specific expression of GIRK subunits.


----------



## ugh1979

Today is my first day on Baclofen (50mg) and I'm very happy with the results. It feels pretty much identical to Phenibut and I feel almost completely free of GAD/SA. I also feel less inhibited than usual which is what I crave and my primary mental issue. Being able to lower my inhibitions is why I love GABAergic drugs the most. 

However, again like Phenibut, it has a recreational side to it so I probably wouldn't want to to take it at work as it may change my usual behaviour a bit too much. (i.e. in to someone who is pro-social, which would appear very strange and possibly suspicious to my colleagues.)


----------



## crayzyMed

So far everyone loved the combo, time to make some threads about our latest discovery and throw the phenibut in the trash (i was just joking)


----------



## ugh1979

crayzyMed said:


> So far everyone loved the combo, time to make some threads about our latest discovery and throw the phenibut in the trash (i was just joking)


What combo?

As for Phenibut, the fact that it does the same thing but it's much cheaper means it's still very much staying in my regime. It works out about 65p/dose for Phenibut opposed to £2/dose for Baclofen from my sources. However, being able to alternate the 2 now means there is even less chance of developing a tolerance to Phenibut so it's all good.


----------



## crayzyMed

I think 3 or 4 people tried the baclofen combo (or more?) and everyone loved it saying it allmost puts them in full remission for SA, this combo looks so interesting it deserves a special thread.

Several reports are on mind and muscle i think i cant recall i feel a bit dopey as i did an experiment with a low dose of valium, as it inhibits dopamine release in the NACC but not the prefrontal cortex shifting balance wich could theoretically make amphetamine motivating for me.


----------



## crayzyMed

ugh1979 said:


> What combo?
> 
> As for Phenibut, the fact that it does the same thing but it's much cheaper means it's still very much staying in my regime. It works out about 65p/dose for Phenibut opposed to £2/dose for Baclofen from my sources. However, being able to alternate the 2 now means there is even less chance of developing a tolerance to Phenibut so it's all good.


There will be cross tolerance, phenibut rapidly downregules GABAB i think it would screw up baclofen.


----------



## ugh1979

crayzyMed said:


> I think 3 or 4 people tried the baclofen combo (or more?) and everyone loved it saying it allmost puts them in full remission for SA, this combo looks so interesting it deserves a special thread.


Baclofen in combo with what?


----------



## crayzyMed

ugh1979 said:


> Baclofen in combo with what?


Amphetamine, **** you took it on its own, im so confused on this valium probably gabapentin potentiating it too, there will probably be more stuff coming out of me that doesnt make sense, feel free to point that out.

Regardless i would like more ppl to compare baclofen and phenibut.


----------



## ugh1979

crayzyMed said:


> There will be cross tolerance, phenibut rapidly downregules GABAB i think it would screw up baclofen.


I guess so, but using one of them once a week as I intend to shouldn't lead to any problems with either. I won't be down-regulating my GABA-b any more frequently than I have been by just taking Phenibut once a week.

It remains to be seen though if Baclofen will be useful for those who have developed a tolerance to Phenibut.


----------



## ugh1979

crayzyMed said:


> Amphetamine, **** you took it on its own, im so confused on this valium probably gabapentin potentiating it too, there will probably be more stuff coming out of me that doesnt make sense, feel free to point that out.
> 
> Regardless i would like more ppl to compare baclofen and phenibut.


Ah right, yeah amp goes very well with GABAergic drugs from my experience. I wouldn't take an amp drug without mixing it with a GABAergic drug. Amp drugs on their own are too anxiety inducing for me personally.

I might start trialling a Modafinil/Baclofen combo.


----------



## crayzyMed

I cant tolerate amphetamine on its own either, and benzo's seem to inhibit it, GABAB drugs go great with them tough GBL and as i recently found out baclofen.


----------



## crayzyMed

Damn should start at 2,5mg valium next time.


----------



## mark555666

Clonazepam is my favourite benzo with amphetamines. Very potent against anxiety without no sedation (in my case).


----------



## Medline

ugh1979 said:


> I might start trialling a Modafinil/Baclofen combo.


Done that, mainly to offset the somnolence from my high baclofen dose.

And there exist no tolerance problems with baclofen, BUT chronic daily use can result in physical dependence and abruptly stopping it then can lead to severe withdrawal including delirium and seizures.


----------



## ugh1979

Medline said:


> Done that, mainly to offset the somnolence from my high baclofen dose.
> 
> And there exist no tolerance problems with baclofen, BUT chronic daily use can result in physical dependence and abruptly stopping it then can lead to severe withdrawal including delirium and seizures.


I would never use any GABAergic or stimulant drug daily. It will just be on weekends, so should be fine.


----------



## Medline

Modafinil can be used daily. With "real" stimulants like Adderall, Ritalin tolerance is a big issue.


----------



## hanzsolo

I tried 500mg at 9am and 500mg at 1pm of phenibut yesterday (instead of clonazepam) and was really tired lol.. I had a nap.. Is that a high dose?? Should it be combined with something else??


----------



## JohnG

Phenibut sucks, go for Baclofen or stay on clonazepam.


----------



## hanzsolo

Agreed, clonazepam goes great with dexedrine or adderall (for me).. Takes away the anxiety and helps the come down. I also recently tried some propranalol (inderal) with adderall and it really took the edge off as well (but was also on clon at the time so cannot say for sure).

Am going to test only adderall /propranalol tomorrow to see how that works out. Would rather use less benzos if possible... 

Does anyone use stimulants and beta blockers like inderal ???
Any feedback ??


----------



## hanzsolo

JohnG said:


> Phenibut sucks, go for Baclofen or stay on clonazepam.


Thanks john,

Am looking at things to use every few weeks when i take breaks from the clonazepam and thought phenibut may be good for a rotation but it seems not.

On the positive, I tried 75mg of lyrica today and it worked really well to reduce my general anxiety. I used to take 225mg and it worked great PRN for awhile but then caused increased anxiey.. No idea why.. Anyways looks like I'll use lyrica for my days off clon for now.. Any maybe test baclofen or gabitril at some point after my other tests are done


----------



## hanzsolo

crayzyMed said:


> I cant tolerate amphetamine on its own either, and benzo's seem to inhibit it, GABAB drugs go great with them tough GBL and as i recently found out baclofen.


Is lyrica GABAB ??

And any idea if baclofen is available on prescription in canada ??


----------



## JohnG

hanzsolo said:


> Is lyrica GABAB ??
> 
> And any idea if baclofen is available on prescription in canada ??


Negative, no GABAB for pregabalin/gabapentin. (it acts on the enzyme that converts glutamate in gaba, and blocks Ca channels.)

If you ask me, I'll stay on clonazepam and amph combinations, with some week rotation. As crazyz can say to you, gaba-a agonism seems to switch all the dopamine load of amph to the prefrontal cortex, turning amph in a more useful tool. (less OCD)


----------



## ugh1979

hanzsolo said:


> I tried 500mg at 9am and 500mg at 1pm of phenibut yesterday (instead of clonazepam) and was really tired lol.. I had a nap.. Is that a high dose?? Should it be combined with something else??


500mg is a small dose. I'd be surprised if you felt anything off that, even with taking the same dose again at 1pm. I always take 2g but many people take more.

Bear in mind though that Phenibut just doesn't work for some people and will just make them tired. (Same with many GABAergic drugs.)

There's no need to combine it with anything but I can find effects more pronounced when mixing it with alcohol or a bit of caffeine or some other stimulant which go nicely with it.


----------



## Medline

hanzsolo said:


> And any idea if baclofen is available on prescription in canada ??


Yes, it is.


----------



## Medline

hanzsolo said:


> Does anyone use stimulants and beta blockers like inderal ???


It's a good combo. Just one word of caution: People ODing on a stimulant shall never take pure beta blockers to stop the tachycardia & hypertension. It will make everything worse and is really dangerous. But normal doses + beta blockers are fine.


----------



## vdenich

*Excellent Coctail*

I've heard of D-cycloserine. A recent paper by Franklin Schneier, MD called Pharmacotherapy of social anxiety disorder, 2011, discusses the promising uses of this drug for enforcing CBT. I also think that they should allow GHB to be used in the US for treating anxiety disorders. Does the Moclobemide cause you dizziness, dry mouth, sedation or sexual side effects?


----------



## Medline

Yes, there is more and more promising data available about low dose cycloserine and fear extinction. Here is an older randomized, controlled study about it's use in social phobia: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18179785

Interestingly, valproate + CBT may also be useful for extinction: 
http://cpnp.org/resource/shared/syn...-and-valproic-acid-extinction-reinstated-fear

I don't take drugs anymore, because it's not necessary for me. GHB and GBL have abuse potential problems (at least for some people) and withdrawal can be dangerous. The studies about Moclobemide & SAD are inconsistent, some showing no significant effect greater than placebo. On it's own I've taken up to 1200mg (600mg b.i.d.) with limited results (and no side effects). It can't compare to "real" irreversible MAOIs like Nardil and Parnate.


----------



## metamorphosis

Medline said:


> Yes, there is more and more promising data available about low dose cycloserine and fear extinction. Here is an older randomized, controlled study about it's use in social phobia: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18179785
> 
> Interestingly, valproate + CBT may also be useful for extinction:
> http://cpnp.org/resource/shared/syn...-and-valproic-acid-extinction-reinstated-fear
> 
> I don't take drugs anymore, because it's not necessary for me. GHB and GBL have abuse potential problems (at least for some people) and withdrawal can be dangerous. The studies about Moclobemide & SAD are inconsistent, some showing no significant effect greater than placebo. On it's own I've taken up to 1200mg (600mg b.i.d.) with limited results (and no side effects). It can't compare to "real" irreversible MAOIs like Nardil and Parnate.


 Medline, I don't know if you covered this but how do you feel about selegeline? Both the transdermal patch and low doses taken orally? In low oral doses it does crate inhibition of MAO-B but not A. It also shows amphetamine properties at a low dose. It seems to be metabolized to L-methamphetamine a to L-amphetamine. Whereas the transdermal patch is a true irreversible MAOI effecting both A and B.

What is the lowest possible dose of selegiline that can be used therapeutically as an adjunct to treatment? I think even at a low dose SSRI's, SNRI's , NDRI's, TCA's, and NRI's would have to be avoided. Basically would it still limit the same drug classifications to be avoided due to serotonin syndrome or not as much? Can it be added safely to any of the above mentioned psyhchotropics again at low doses? I'm talking 5mgs twice a day.

This question is thrown out there because I want to start looking into this! 
From what I've read, Selegiline has immune-system-boosting and anti-neurodegenerative effects at this level and is a good preventative medication in the prevention of neurodegenerative diseases.
http://selegiline.com/


----------



## QuietBoy99

How do you measure being cured of social phobia? What lab test are there to measure it?


----------



## crayzyMed

QuietBoy99 said:


> How do you measure being cured of social phobia? What lab test are there to measure it?


Jgzero5000.


----------



## A Sense of Purpose

QuietBoy99 said:


> How do you measure being cured of social phobia? What lab test are there to measure it?


Once more the oblivious nature to your question goes without thought, and sounds a lot like someone who has never experienced social anxiety, let alone a psychiatric condition.

Think of it this way, cause and effect. If you are socially anxious, its going to be accompanied by obvious symptoms (panic, fear, avoidance etc etc.)

So how do you know you are not suffering from SAD? Clearly, there has either been a large reduction or complete remission of the symptoms which made you get so wound up about in the first place.

Its scary to think that you have been on this forum for how ever long, yet still clearly are unable to understand subjective experience, its variation in the population and the fact that there are no molecular tests (which you claim to need proof of) to validate someone's symptoms.

*So basically, you are accusing people of putting on a charade, based on the logic that yes, they have symptoms alright, but they cannot be linked to a test tube?*

Just highlights how narrow minded and clueless you are in this whole picture.


----------



## crayzyMed

vdenich said:


> I've heard of D-cycloserine. A recent paper by Franklin Schneier, MD called Pharmacotherapy of social anxiety disorder, 2011, discusses the promising uses of this drug for enforcing CBT. I also think that they should allow GHB to be used in the US for treating anxiety disorders. Does the Moclobemide cause you dizziness, dry mouth, sedation or sexual side effects?


Glycine will be more effective as those are full glycine site agonists and d cyclosering a partional agonist, sarcosine may be even better, its a glycine reuptake inhibitor, a endogenious one, both substances can be ordered online.

D aspartic acid will theoretically work but may be excitoxic, thats unsure at this point.

GHB is too addictive to use therapeutically, even tough i was a proponent of it myself, unfortionally my reaction to it was paradoxal.


----------



## QuietBoy99

crayzyMed said:


> Jgzero5000.


See this is what I'm talking about.



A Sense of Purpose said:


> Once more the oblivious nature to your question goes without thought, and sounds a lot like someone who has never experienced social anxiety, let alone a psychiatric condition.
> 
> Think of it this way, cause and effect. If you are socially anxious, its going to be accompanied by obvious symptoms (panic, fear, avoidance etc etc.)
> 
> So how do you know you are not suffering from SAD? Clearly, there has either been a large reduction or complete remission of the symptoms which made you get so wound up about in the first place.
> 
> Its scary to think that you have been on this forum for how ever long, yet still clearly are unable to understand subjective experience, its variation in the population and the fact that there are no molecular tests (which you claim to need proof of) to validate someone's symptoms.
> 
> *So basically, you are accusing people of putting on a charade, based on the logic that yes, they have symptoms alright, but they cannot be linked to a test tube?*
> 
> Just highlights how narrow minded and clueless you are in this whole picture.


Obviously the meds that you have been taking which you have stopped because of side effects and yet you preach to others that these meds are safe; you don't practice what you preach are causing you to not think properly along with some anger issues.

I've experienced depression and anxiety who are you to tell me that. I've also experienced psychiatric induced depression from so-called "safe" drugs. I don't know why I keep repeating myself but I never said problems and symptoms don't exist; panic, anxiety, etc do exist I never said they didn't.

Where are the lab test to prove that it exist and to prove during diagnosis? Where are the chemical imbalance test, blood test, etc?

Experience do exist but how can you link them to psychiatry which has no science to back it up for proof. Your clearly living in a dream world and you completely ignore all the facts. I never said symptoms aren't real; what I said was proof for a diagnosis; clearly common sense has left your brain.

So you admit there is no proof is what your saying; thank you that is all I needed. Just come out and say it you didn't have to pull this out for so long.


----------



## crayzyMed

> See this is what I'm talking about.


The proof you need can easily be found online, besides that we have had those discussions a 100 times allready, why bother answering you?


----------



## QuietBoy99

Just admit there is no proof.


----------



## Medline

metamorphosis said:


> Medline, I don't know if you covered this but how do you feel about selegeline? Both the transdermal patch and low doses taken orally? In low oral doses it does crate inhibition of MAO-B but not A.


For (atypical) depression the EMSAM patch could be a suitable option if first line drugs failed. In case of SAD I'm far less optimistic and wouldn't expect an effect that can compare to Parnate and even more so the GABAergic Nardil. Low oral doses like 5mg a day or twice a week can provide energy, induce potent antioxidant enzymes & provide neuroprotection. Therefore it's used by "life extensionists". Some like it's effects at that dose for others it's anxiogenic. Keep in mind that the effect a dopaminergic drug has on mood depends on where in the brain it raises DA levels and especially how it achieves that. Obviously potent dopamine releasing or reuptake inhibition agents like amphetamine or cocaine & methylphenidate have much stronger mood-elevating properties compared to taking a selective MAO-B-inhibitor, dopamine-precursor, low dose amisulpride...



metamorphosis said:


> It also shows amphetamine properties at a low dose. It seems to be metabolized to L-methamphetamine a to L-amphetamine.


The L-isomers won't have much of an CNS effect, but a drug test can be false positive because of them.



metamorphosis said:


> What is the lowest possible dose of selegiline that can be used therapeutically as an adjunct to treatment? I think even at a low dose SSRI's, SNRI's , NDRI's, TCA's, and NRI's would have to be avoided. Basically would it still limit the same drug classifications to be avoided due to serotonin syndrome or not as much? Can it be added safely to any of the above mentioned psyhchotropics again at low doses? I'm talking 5mgs twice a day.


For males slowly adding low dose selegiline to a e.g. an SSRI is very unlikely to cause serotonin toxicity, but I would't go above 5-7,5mg a day to be on the safe side.


----------



## lazy

Medline, what is your opinion about herbs, specifically those adaptogens with mild MAOI/SSRI/anti-anxiety like properties, as some sort of substitute that may mimick your regime?


----------



## Medline

My regimen has changed over time and I don't take drugs at the moment because I'm doing fine without them. I think mimicking it would be pretty hard to impossible with supplments & herbs, because it included at least at times really potent drugs.

Nevertheless I think diet, lifestyle changes and supplements can make a big difference (IMHO more so for depression than for severe & chronic SAD). Here is just one website which I find useful when it comes to natural treatments: http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetC...7-4f80-4453-a175-02cc6220a387&chunkiid=249073

If one considers nootropics also more or less natural, it's getting more complex, but also more interesting. Users from http://www.longecity.org/forum/ know a LOT about supplements, herbs and nootropics.


----------



## Oioioi123

Stimulants can be used safely with stims?(at proper doses, not abusing) I'm just wondering if stimulants could help with my fatigue/ADHD and beta blockers for anxiety



Medline said:


> It's a good combo. Just one word of caution: People ODing on a stimulant shall never take pure beta blockers to stop the tachycardia & hypertension. It will make everything worse and is really dangerous. But normal doses + beta blockers are fine.


----------



## Medline

Oioioi123 said:


> Stimulants can be used safely with stims?(at proper doses, not abusing) I'm just wondering if stimulants could help with my fatigue/ADHD and beta blockers for anxiety


I guess your question is if therapeutic doses of stimulants can be safely combined with beta blockers and the answer is yes. Just in case of a stimulant overdose it's a bad mistake to "treat" the resulting hypertension, tachycardia... with a pure beta blocker altough it might seem logical at first sight:



> Beta blockers must not be used in the treatment of cocaine, amphetamine, or other alpha adrenergic stimulant overdose. The blockade of only beta receptors increases hypertension, reduces coronary blood flow, left ventricular function, and cardiac output and tissue perfusion by means of leaving the alpha adrenergic system stimulation unopposed.[23]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker#Adverse_effects

Stimulants can for sure help with ADHD and fatigue. They can be combined with e.g. Inderal (propranolol), clonidine or benzodiazepines.


----------



## Oioioi123

So in your opinion do you think this would be a good combo for someone with GAD/add along with chronic fatigue?? This seems to me like it might cover all the bases although I'm sure the beta blockers might negate some of the energy gained from stims. Let's say Ritalin/proponolol



Medline said:


> I guess your question is if therapeutic doses of stimulants can be safely combined with beta blockers and the answer is yes. Just in case of a stimulant overdose it's a bad mistake to "treat" the resulting hypertension, tachycardia... with a pure beta blocker altough it might seem
> 
> logical at first sight:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker#Adverse_effects
> 
> Stimulants can for sure help with ADHD and fatigue. They can be combined with e.g. Inderal (propranolol), clonidine or benzodiazepines.


----------



## Medline

Adderall would be a better choice than Ritalin IMHO. It can nicely be combined with Inderal and / or Klonopin (Lyrica is another possibility in case of GAD + SAD).


----------



## Oioioi123

Medline said:


> Adderall would be a better choice than Ritalin IMHO. It can nicely be combined with Inderal and / or Klonopin (Lyrica is another possibility in case of GAD + SAD).


Thanks for all your help Med. much appreciated!


----------



## Nootropic

Medline said:


> First of all: Don't try this at home kids! I have year long experience with psychoactive drugs, which I am not really proud of. :-( I've made a lot of mistakes, some of which I could have paid the ultimate price for - my life. Nevertheless giving up wasn't an option for me at any point.
> 
> SAD involves dysfunction of the Serotonin-, Dopamine-, GABA-, Oxytocin- and probably Norepinephrine-System.
> 
> Fact: about 30-40% of patients do not adequately respond to a treatment with first line agents (SSRIs/SNRIs). These people might be helped by long term Pregabalin/Clonazepam or MAOI-treatment. But some have to be considered "therapy resistent".
> 
> Hypothesis: Elevating levels of 5-HT, DA, GABA, NE and Oxytocin in the CNS increases the probability of making a complete recovery. *Low dose of the NMDA-antagonist Cycloserine may help to "hardwire" the results in the brain.*
> 
> My regimen:
> 
> 2 x 300mg Moclobemide / day:
> 
> Increases levels of Serotonin and Norepinephrine.
> 
> 2mg Selegiline / day:
> 
> Works on Dopamine, but leaves enough Monoamine Oxidase so that Tyramine can be broken down and no special diet has to be followed.
> 
> 4 x 1.5ml of GBL / day:
> 
> Non-toxic precursor for GHB, legal in my country (but not in the US!). Increases levels of Oxytocin, GHB and probably GABA-B in the CNS. Potent anxiolytic and empathogen.
> 
> 50mg Baclofen / night:
> 
> Extremely important! Never take GHB/GBL 24/7 or severe dependence and withdrawal will occur. Baclofen helps with that and you can sleep very well and resftul.
> 
> 50mg Cycloserine / day:
> 
> May help to make the results permanent.
> 
> I take this from Monday-Friday. On weekends I take 2mg Klonopin / day instead of Baclofen and GBL to avoid tolerance and physical dependence.
> 
> This cocktail completely kills SA and depression. I've tried all Psychodrugs known to man (SSRIs/SNRIs, tricyclic and atypical ADs, MAOIs, Mood stabilizers, Neuroleptics, Alcohol, Benzos, Phenobarbital, Clomethiazole, Buprenorphine) but nothing works as effectively as this regimen.
> 
> What do you think?


What does this bolded part do exactly? And could I use another NMDA antagonist like Agmatine instead?


----------



## Otispaul

So I can go to my dr and ask for these meds?


----------



## leave me alone

There is no cure. You may want to re-word that.


----------



## Faith012

Medline said:


> First of all: Don't try this at home kids! I have year long experience with psychoactive drugs, which I am not really proud of. :-( I've made a lot of mistakes, some of which I could have paid the ultimate price for - my life. Nevertheless giving up wasn't an option for me at any point.
> 
> SAD involves dysfunction of the Serotonin-, Dopamine-, GABA-, Oxytocin- and probably Norepinephrine-System.
> 
> Fact: about 30-40% of patients do not adequately respond to a treatment with first line agents (SSRIs/SNRIs). These people might be helped by long term Pregabalin/Clonazepam or MAOI-treatment. But some have to be considered "therapy resistent".
> 
> Hypothesis: Elevating levels of 5-HT, DA, GABA, NE and Oxytocin in the CNS increases the probability of making a complete recovery. Low dose of the NMDA-antagonist Cycloserine may help to "hardwire" the results in the brain.
> 
> My regimen:
> 
> *2 x 300mg Moclobemide / day:*
> 
> Increases levels of Serotonin and Norepinephrine.
> 
> *2mg Selegiline / day:*
> 
> Works on Dopamine, but leaves enough Monoamine Oxidase so that Tyramine can be broken down and no special diet has to be followed.
> 
> *4 x 1.5ml of GBL / day:*
> 
> Non-toxic precursor for GHB, legal in my country (but not in the US!). Increases levels of Oxytocin, GHB and probably GABA-B in the CNS. Potent anxiolytic and empathogen.
> 
> *50mg Baclofen / night:*
> 
> Extremely important! Never take GHB/GBL 24/7 or severe dependence and withdrawal will occur. Baclofen helps with that and you can sleep very well and resftul.
> 
> *50mg Cycloserine / day:*
> 
> May help to make the results permanent.
> 
> I take this from Monday-Friday. On weekends I take 2mg Klonopin / day instead of Baclofen and GBL to avoid tolerance and physical dependence.
> 
> This cocktail completely kills SA and depression. I've tried all Psychodrugs known to man (SSRIs/SNRIs, tricyclic and atypical ADs, MAOIs, Mood stabilizers, Neuroleptics, Alcohol, Benzos, Phenobarbital, Clomethiazole, Buprenorphine) but nothing works as effectively as this regimen.
> 
> What do you think?


is this all doctor prescribed? how long did you take them?


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## BeatingSAwithastick

Wow, my wife won't even let me take paxil. Are you a doctor or something?


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## Medline

leave me alone said:


> There is no cure. You may want to re-word that.


Let's call it "going into remission until one dies or for eternity", whatever is more likely. 



Faith012 said:


> is this all doctor prescribed? how long did you take them?


Some drugs were prescribed, others like GBL obv not. I don't know how long I took that particular combo, I always tried to optimize my regimen.



BeatingSAwithastick said:


> Wow, my wife won't even let me take paxil. Are you a doctor or something?


Becoming one.


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## Endorphin

When you said "100% cure" and named all those drugs, I got really mad inside. I'd rather continue with my shamanistic journey! And it is possible that some extreme "missed opportunities" can get you really mad that you get a sudden change of perspective. Happened to me im not even socially anxious that much, its more that I like being alone sometimes and SOME people or situations are annoying. 
I think everyone has a different set of Problems that created SA. No one just gets SA for no reason so ask yourself what you really want in life. I always wanted to get laid and i got laid when i was 15. Now im 18 and im not any happier than I was. I recently got a grip of reality and knowledge from a relative and discovered a whole new perspective on life. Also, just start doing things. You wont believe how many good things have happened and then later im like "damn if I wouldnt of gone, that wouldnt of happened!"


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## Kaiserx008

You discovered the trick. 6 mg Klonopin and 40 mg of Baclofen.

I figured by increasing both GABA(a) & (b) that positive results would be attained. Indeed, it worked like a charm.

Godspeed


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## F1X3R

This thread is about 3 years old, are you still cured?


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## gilmourr

I'm really interested in trying some of the substances Medline has used in regards to my own issues.

I don't have social anxiety, but I have an exponential amount of depression. Literally spend 24 hours of the day thinking about depression. If I could I would probably choose to sleep away every single day.

I am looking into using GBL as a drug, and possibly baclofen. I also would probably add Zoloft because it has really helped my depression. 

I wonder if this would work for panic disorder as well. I wonder if Medline is arounddddddd... Medline?


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## belfort

^^GBL will basically eliminate your social anxiety and depression completely for about 3 hours..it will turn you into a completely different person, the problem is, once drug wears off, you go right back to normal and you cannot dose gbl every 3 hours without running into big problems..


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## thefan

Im currently in bit of a problems, and would like medline and other peoples help to get me out of this horrid situation. I am taking 0.75mg clonazepam, which i think most people kinda think is not that much. Other meds are 5mg remeron, 25mg agomelantine, 300mg hydroxyzine (atarax), 750mg lyrica and some atenlolol for the tremors. I think thats about it. 

I have only been on clonazepam for a month, but it appears that in my case the tolerance is already reached. I actually was on 1mg, and cut to 0.75mg, and im having quite a bit of anxiety, panic attacks and stuff like that.

Id like to stop taking clonazepam completely, maybe start it again someday, but now id like to stop, because i dont like the physical addiction, tremors, headache etc. 

I would like you guys professiona, help with dealing with this goal. I am thinking off cutting my clonazepam dose to 0.625mg soon, but it is very hard to wean off .

I was hooked on ativan 5 years ago, with much higher dose, and quit it with help of lyrica, but now as im already on it, its not doing much. 

Im currently at hospital in "treatment", however i dont consider it such, because they just think my anxiety is now higher, and thats why i should increase my clonaz dose, and they try to give me all kind of antipsychotics and stuff even though im just trying to come off the clonaz. 

I think i can get my hands of baclofen from here, and phenibut i think i could get it from iherb. And i think i could convince a psychiatrist to prescribe me memantine or something similar. However the options in finland are not great. This hospitals other idea was to wean off 50% of my dose per week which sounded quite sick to me. I have been somewhat coping with the first 25% reduction. We also don't have less then 0.5mg clonazepam pills here, so titration is the only method i can use.

I have read plenty off stuff online about ampa and mdna agonists. I just dont know what should i try if i wish to come off this stuff. 

So pro:s please help me as much as you can. Id use phenobarbital as its inducer for klonopin so i think it would leave my system earlier, that way, but i cant cos we dont have it in finland.

Financially coming to the states wouldnt be such a big issue, i just dont know how i could get the more effective drugs while i was there on a "3month" detox holiday.

Anyway help me as you can please. I know there is no miracle cure except pheno?, but what could help a little.


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## thefan

One more thing . I dont know about ketamine or opioids, because of the panic disorder i have. Memantine shouldn't be a problem though?


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## Life4Cash

belfort said:


> ^^GBL will basically eliminate your social anxiety and depression completely for about 3 hours..it will turn you into a completely different person, the problem is, once drug wears off, you go right back to normal and you cannot dose gbl every 3 hours without running into big problems..


Yes it help, but (at least in my case) not eliminate social anxiety 100% but it helps a lot! It help instead for depression , but the euphoric effect (like alcohol), lasts less than 3 hours...
A bad side is the horrible taste that i can't mask...
Anyone know if gbl can be replaced with other substance that has the same effect? 
I was thinking the oxytocin spray (but it is very expensive)... someone have tried this stuff?


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## ugh1979

Life4Cash said:


> Yes it help, but (at least in my case) not eliminate social anxiety 100% but it helps a lot! It help instead for depression , but the euphoric effect (like alcohol), lasts less than 3 hours...
> A bad side is the horrible taste that i can't mask...
> Anyone know if gbl can be replaced with other substance that has the same effect?


I replaced GBL with Phenibut or Baclofen. Neither are anywhere near as strong as GBL but last a lot longer (all day) which massivley reduces the abuse potential. They have been working well for me for a couple of years now. I can only take them a couple of days a week though so as to avoid tolerance dependance. I've tried longer stretches and suffered badly for it when i've stopped so I stick rigidly to 2 days a week.

It's not ideal but better than nothing.



> I was thinking the oxytocin spray (but it is very expensive)... someone have tried this stuff?


I've tried it it. It works, but not that well, and doesn't last very long. It's not cost effective in the slightest IMO.


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## shadedragon

Only a few people can cure their s.a anyway....


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## Life4Cash

Thanks ugh1979!


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## Life4Cash

shadedragon said:


> Only a few people can cure their s.a anyway....


All people can cure S.A. i am searching for the definitive cure...

Someone have tried the "cocktail" of Medline??


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